I'm in denial ... please help! - Marriage Builders® Forums

Marriage Builders

I am new to the board and I am hoping to find some help here because I am at a complete loss on what else to do.

I am 34 and my H is 40. I have been suspicious for a while now that my H has been having an A. He has been very cold to me and distant for 4 months now. He has lost all interest in sex during this time. I cannot keep track of all of his time because we have different days off.

Since I have been suspicious, I decided to keep track of his condoms. I have been counting them regularly, and after weeks of noticing no difference in the number, I discovered last Tuesday that one of them was missing. I became physically ill.

I confronted him the next night, and he absolutely denied it. He says that he has not and is not having an A. He thought it was funny that I was keeping track. As for his other behavior, he says that his distance is a result of him feeling depressed lately and not feeling like talking (

svb,
Although I'm sorry that you feel it necessary to come due to your H's behavior, I welcome you. You've come to the right place. The Marriage Builders (MB) site and board is a wonderful place of support and information. This site has helped me and I'm sure 1,000's like us.

First off if fidelity is involved this may be the fight of your life to save your M. You can't do it alone or just by reading self-help books. You need a counselor trained in "infidelity". I would suggest that you try to find one in your local area or use the Harley's.

Next go to the main MB site and read everything you can on the infidelity pages. The Harley's will want you familiar with the concepts or if you choose someone local it will help you in the selection process. Also, the more you've read here the more the responses here will mean to you and will help with your specific situation. Especially focus on Plan A and meeting all of your H's needs. Do you know what his needs are? My W didn't know mine nor I hers.

Remember everyone's situation is unique but having said that you will soon learn that your husband's (H's) actions follow a general pattern. Yes your H's lack of sex desire may be because he is depressed about something. Did he tell you what he's depressed about? It is also one of the tell tale signs of an A. Has his interest in his appearance changed. Is there more activity on his cell account that can't be accounted for? Did he ever discuss people at work that he has now gone silent on? There are more signs as well.

He may become more irritable towards you. May pick fights or criticize more. That is his way of justifying/rationalizing his behavior. My W is so __________ that it's ok for me to go to lunch with so & so. Usually affairs start out as innocent friendships. Conversation over lunch turns to relationship talk etc etc.

I realize that it's tough but I wouldn't accuse him anymore until you have additional info. He will just deny deny deny. He will make you feel like you are a jealous paranoid wife with no self-esteem.

Also, try not to get bogged down in the spying game. I did and it took my focus off of Plan A. I also found out more than I wanted to.

Give more info on your specific situation and I'll try to help along with others here.

cwmac

I'm not sure what happened, but the rest of my original post disappeared.

It was as follows:

I want to believe him more than anything. I am beginning to doubt myself on the physical evidence I discovered, although I've counted them so many times, I don't know how I could be wrong. He has been somewhat more talkative since I've confronted him, but still a little distant. He still has no desire for me. He says he still loves me. Although this is confusing to me because I asked him at one point in the past four months (before the confrontation) if he still loves me and he said he "didn't know."

I have read much of the information on relationships and infidelity on this website, and I can understand how I was partly responsible if he, in fact, has strayed. With working full time and being in grad school, I know that I have been neglecting his needs. I just wish he would have talked to me instead of turning to another woman.

Overall, I don't know if I should choose to believe him and forget about my discovery (DENIAL), or if I should choose to stick with my gut feelings. I have a hard time believing him overall. He has lied to me in the past over other issues. My world has been turned upside-down. I can't eat, sleep, or concentrate. When I do sleep, I have nightmares over this.

I am at a loss on what to do.

Well the red flags are up. My H was the same way. No interest in sex. He said he was depressed. He told me to hang in there, things would get better.

All the time he was sleeping with a neighbor. When I had absolute proof (motel bills in the middle of the day when he was supposed to be at work), he lied and lied.

But whatever is going on with your marriage, start in Plan A. That is to show your H how good your marriage could be. Then give it some time and see what happens.

svb,
Some thoughts:

on <blockquote>quote:<hr /> My world has been turned upside-down. I can't eat, sleep, or concentrate. When I do sleep, I have nightmares over this. <hr /></blockquote>Take some deep breaths. I know how you're feeling. You're somewhere in a hyper state of awareness with some depression and anxiety mixed in. I understand the restless feelings that make it tough to eat, sleep, relax and focus on school or work. You need to find something to take your mind off of this. Most on this site recommend strenuaous activities such as jogging, work-outs or other sports related activity. The endorphines will be released which will help.

on <blockquote>quote:<hr /> He has been somewhat more talkative since I've confronted him, but still a little distant. He still has no desire for me. He says he still loves me. Although this is confusing to me because I asked him at one point in the past four months (before the confrontation) if he still loves me and he said he "didn't know." <hr /></blockquote>Ask him if he is in love with you not whether he loves you. Alot of wayward spouses (WS) give their betrayed spouses (BS) the old line " I love you; I'm just not in love with you."

on <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Overall, I don't know if I should choose to believe him and forget about my discovery (DENIAL), or if I should choose to stick with my gut feelings. I have a hard time believing him overall. He has lied to me in the past over other issues. <hr /></blockquote>If I were you, I'd stick to the gut instict especially if he has had "truth" issues in the past. The unofficial "gut instict" index on this site is accurate 99.99% of the time. By ignoring it, things will just get progressively worse. For example if there is someone that H is interested in and it is only a friendship now it may turn to an emotional affair (EA) with more time or it may go from a current EA to physical affair (PA).

Would he go to M counseling per my last post?

Does he have a cell phone/ bill that you can review to see if there is a suspicious number??

As I said before don't accuse him further without more evidence!! This is the hardest thing for a new "Just Found Out" MBer to follow. Your anxiety will make you want to question him all the time and to have "relationship" talks 24x7. As I said before start Plan A now. Collect whatever evidence you can. As you collect more come back to the site and ask opinions on whether to confront or not.

A note on confronting a WS with evidence. You'll read on this site that you don't want to love bust (LB) because it makes you unattractive to the WS and makes withdrawals from the Love Bank. That doesn't mean you can't confront your H with valid evidence. It just means you need to do it in a specific way. You need to calmly sit down with him and say "honey we need to talk." Remember when you said I was being silly about my concerns over the missing condom and your lack of interest in me, well I've learned something that is really bothering me and I wanted to share it with you.........." Again you don't do this until you have enough evidence because he can probably explain away one or two items.

There are alot of people on this site who have never really learned the truth because their spouse was questioned with little evidence and they went further underground. For example, if you're spouse is using his cell phone to call the other woman (OW) he can buy a prepaid phone card and you'll never know who he's talking to. If he is e-mailing her alte at night from the home PC on his regular e-mail account he may decide to get a yahoo secret account. etc etc

That reminds me... do you know how to check to see which sites he's visited on the PC? Press Control H and the history comes up.

Gotta run.

cwmac

I am very grateful for your responses to my concerns. You have no idea what this means to me. It really helps to hear from people who are going through something similar.

I am absolutely torn on what to do. I want to know what is going on, but at the same time, I don't. I want to be calm and patient and understanding and give him some space (follow plan A) but at the same time I want to confront him again and again and have "relationship talks" 24/7 as you say. I feel like I need to get to the truth.

I'm afraid I already confronted him too soon, and now he is going to be extra careful. Maybe I should have waited a little longer to see if maybe more condoms disappeared. He already told me that he never would have imagined that I would have checked on something like that. Now I know I can't count on that trick anymore.

There are a couple of things I'd like to ask him, but I'm not sure if I should at this point. First of all, I found a receipt of his from when he purchased my Valentine's gift. (believe it or not, I received one.) On the receipt were two boxes of expensive chocolates and one item called "satins." Unfortunately, I only received one box of chocolate. I am dying to ask him about this. I'm sure he can explain this away by saying he purchased something for his mother and mailed it to her (she's in another country and he often does this - purchase one gift for me and another for her at the same time). I'm dying to know what "satins" is, though, and if it's what I think it is, I don't know why he would buy it for his mother. I also don't know why he would leave the receipt where I could see it. I would like to believe it is because he has nothing to hide.

Also, he did not work last Monday. I discovered the missing condom the next day. On Monday he used my car and I noticed a lot of extra mileage. I did ask him about this and he said he went to buy wine out of state, which he often does. I dropped it after that. However, there is no proof of this wine. I have found no additional wine or any receipts. He said he used the credit card to buy the wine. The credit card statement came in already and for that day there were no charges for wine, but there was a charge for the car repair on that day (he had my car on his day off to take it for repairs.) I'm dying to ask him if he has a receipt for the wine or can tell me exactly what he bought.

Should I confront him on these items, or should I let them go??

We do not have cell phones, so I can't really check on this. He already has international calling cards to call his family in another country. He can also use these to make calls in the country, so I don't think I can count on phone bills.

I haven't noticed any bizarre email activity, however, he could have another account.

Regarding his depression, he says he can't really tell me what it is because he doesn't know. I know he is having problems at work, but he doesn't really share them with me. He is a firm believer of not bringing problems home from work.

Another of my dilemmas is that he does not consider divorce and he does talk a little about our plans for the future. It has been sort of a dream of ours for him to get transferred at work so we can move to Europe for a few years. We love to travel - our love of travel and sense of adventure is what brought us together in the first place. Although during the past few months he was saying that he lost the desire to go, I also know that he recently did apply for a position. Why would he talk about our future and consider moving away if he is having an affair??

I am SO confused. I am also sorry for my extremely long posts.

Dear SVB - If you think he is then trust your instincts. He may not be in a full-blown PA, but chances are he's thinking about it. Of course, I'm assuming here that you've not been prone to irrational suspicions in the past and that his behaviour really is unusual.

This all sounds so familiar to me though. My WH (now DH, one year ago Valentine's Day) started off with the depression (job troubles, he said), then lack of sex (tired, he said), then not doing things with me (need space, he said). Then came the drinking, the suspicious receipts, the unaccounted-for nights out, getting mad when I came up behind him while he was on e-mail. Like you, I refused to believe, really believe - up until the very minute he told me that he was having an A. He'd always have excuses and make me feel like I was somehow in the wrong for doubting him. So trust yourself - that's my first piece of advice.

Second piece of advice - get positive help. Don't ignore your husband's behaviour and hope it goes away. No matter how much he wants you to! I think if I'd pushed the issue, in a loving way, back when it first started, I could have saved my M. I've become a firm believer in MB principles and in counselors. Even if your H won't go to a counselor with you, go alone. They'll help you keep your sanity and help you see if you're fooling yourself or (maybe, just maybe) going too far with your suspicions.

Thirdly - keep posting on MB. They were a God-send to me when I was going through the worst.

There is still hope as long as you still believe there is. That's my last piece of advice. I had to kill the hope before I could move on.

I'll check back later and see if any of this makes sense to you, or if I'm way off base. Hang in there.

SH94

OK, reality check. Even if your suspicions are wrong you are NOT being irrational.

(1) He told you he bought wine with his credit card, but he didn't. There's no record on the statement and no visible wine. Hmmn.

(2) Lack of sex. Not a good sign under any circumstances.

(3) Missing condom. Not sure about that one. It was a while before it showed up and could you have miscounted? On the other hand people on this site testify that often sex in affairs is unprotected so condoms may not be used anyway. Or maybe he has a secret supply for use the rest of the time. Or maybe he merely fantasises about having an affair and put one in his wallet in case he "got lucky"???

Without making any further accusations about an affair it seems to me that there are a couple of issues you can raise.

[A] Dr Harley points out that marriage involves a vow of sexual exclusivity and that it follows logically that if you want or need sex then only your spouse can provide it. To some people this might seem a little old fashioned but I do see his point.

You did not sign up for a sexless marriage and are entitled to pursue this issue with him.

[B] What is he depressed about? He should be honest and open with you about this. It obviously is not only his business but affects you as well.

Dear SH94,

Your message does make sense to me. Thanks. Your situations sounds like mine. I just wonder if there will ever be a time when he will admit to it like your H did. Also, I have not been prone to irrational suspicions in the past. His behavior has been extremely out of the ordinary. There have been times that he has been distant in the past, but not for so long and w/o sex.

I've already put in a call to get information on counseling. Hopefully I'll hear something back today. I've been deathly afraid to ask my husband if he'd like to go. I have my doubts that he will go. He'll say it's not necessary, I'm sure. I've already recommended personal counseling for him on his depression. At first he acted like he was considering it. When I gave him all of the necessary information such as insurance info and phone numbers, he said he wouldn't go.

I think I will go to counseling by myself if he's not interested. I might approach him tonight about this subject.

I am in an awful state this morning. My H is off today, and I'm afraid he'll be up to no good. I noticed that his alarm was set, which he usually doesn't set on his days off. I checked the mileage on his car before I left today. I feel so sneaky for doing these things, and I'm sure I WILL drive myself crazy on the spying.

Thank for your advice.

Hi, SVB - oh, good, I'm glad my advice didn't seem too out of line. And your last post really hit some chords in me, so before I head for bed (I'm on the other side of the world from you), let me respond:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I just wonder if there will ever be a time when he will admit to it like your H did. <hr /></blockquote>It took months and months of denial on my part, and then some determined spying, and then more months of accusations before my WH ever admitted to it. But you can't imagine what a relief it was to hear him admit! I realized I wasn't crazy after all, that I wasn't some crazy neurotic jealous shrew of a wife.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Also, I have not been prone to irrational suspicions in the past. His behavior has been extremely out of the ordinary. There have been times that he has been distant in the past, but not for so long and w/o sex.
<hr /></blockquote>That's why you should trust your instincts! I also trusted my WH completely - I was never jealous of him before this, for 7 years. And then suddenly... I was. Hmmmm.... Those alarms don't start ringing unless there's something to set them off....

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I've already recommended personal counseling for him on his depression. At first he acted like he was considering it. When I gave him all of the necessary information such as insurance info and phone numbers, he said he wouldn't go.
<hr /></blockquote>Similar to my WH - yeah, I'll do it, but then back out. Again, I really do think it's a good idea that you go yourself, even if he won't.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I think I will go to counseling by myself if he's not interested. I might approach him tonight about this subject.
<hr /></blockquote>Good girl! On both counts - getting counseling yourself, AND about asking him to go with you. Tell him how worried you are about your M. Don't lay it all on him - tell him that his behaviour is causing you to have problems and you think a 3rd party will help resolve them. But let him know that in order to solve your problems, he needs to be there with you.
Oh, and if asking for his help in getting YOU help still doesn't get a response... then I'd start worrying if he's gone too far into the Fog. From what you've said, I doubt he's in a serious PA or even in one at all - maybe he's just thinking about it or is involved in an EA.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I checked the mileage on his car before I left today. I feel so sneaky for doing these things, and I'm sure I WILL drive myself crazy on the spying.
<hr /></blockquote>We all feel like that about spying - we feel sneaky. But who's the one who is really being sneaky, may I ask, you or your H??? Besides feeling sneaky, I kept asking myself - "do I really want to know." And the truth was, while I didn't want to, the alternative - not knowing - was so much worse. So I did spy, very aggressively, and that's the only way he ever finally admitted the A. But the advice you got from others about not tipping your hand too early, that's good advice. Otherwise he'll go underground.

One last thing... I hope my feelings of pain and sympathy for you come through in my note. Because I do hurt for you, having gone through it myself. I can feel your own pain in your words. Take care.

Well I just screwed up.

I came home from work extremely anxious. I knew my husband had the day off today and I was on pins and needles all day. I had checked his mileage before he left and when I returned, I checked it again. I asked him what he had done today and he said "nothing." Then he said that he actually went to the grocery store, which is actually literally only one mile away. THere were 48 miles on his car. I confronted him about this. He got defensive and said that he went to a work meeting in another suburb. I asked him, "Why can't you just tell me that in the beginning -- it just makes me believe that you're lying and hiding something." He says he does it on purpose because he's tired of me bothering him and asking all of these questions. I can't believe him anymore. He now also knows that I check his mileage. He also said he wonders now what else I check on him. He said, "Are you going to hire a detective, as well?"

He was very angry with me and he says he doesn't care if I believe him or not. He said that we already had a discussion when I first confronted him and that I should believe him.

Since I already confronted him about this, I confronted him about the receipt I found. He said it was chocolate for me, the neighbor, and a tie for himself. I don't know.

I also mentioned counseling. He said that he absolutely would not go. He said that it would not do any good. I said that I am going to go myself and he said that I should if I wanted to.

I believe I just ruined everything. I probably just should have come home and said absolutely nothing. I just can't help myself.

svb

First off, trust your gut instincts. As was said before, your gut will be right 99% of the time.

Secondly, get a copy of Surviving an Affair. Until you get it read all you can on the Marriage Builder's website. Learn first about Plan A, and how it works.

Third, take a deep breath and relax. If your H is having an affair, you will ultimately find out. Continue snooping, but keep what you find to yourself, and when you have something concrete and irrefutable, then and only then, should you confront him. There is a proscribed manner by which you should confront him, so you do not DAMAGE YOU EFFORTS TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE!!!

Lastly, in your snooping, try to find out who he is having the A with. One of the quickest, most efficient ways to start the beginning of the end of the affair, is to expose it. Start with the "other woman's" (OW's) husband. Affairs thrive in secrecy, and when you let it "out of the closet", they have to try to maintain in the "light of day", which means reality begins setting in. It is much more difficult to keep this "fantasy" alive when others are aware of it.

All this is covered in Surviving an Affair. Many of the highlights are covered on this website.

Read, read, read, learn, learn, learn all you can so you are properly "armed" to go into this battle of saving your marriage.

You need to be in control of your emotions as best you can, and not go running to him with every little shred of info you pick up.

Remember, your human nature will tell you to do the wrong thing most of the time in going through this, so get busy learning how to do all of these things properly, and in an orderly manner. It will save you lots of time and suffering in the long term.

Stay strong!!!

SD

Thanks SD.

I just talked to my husband again. I apologized for checking up on him and promised I'd give him some more space. We hugged and he seems to be OK.
I hated doing this, because I feel I'm giving him space to carry on with his (possible) A. That is the last thing I want to do. At least he is currently not angry.

Of course, I plan to snoop as normal, but I will keep any findings to myself from now on unless, like you said, I find something irrefutable. It will be EXTREMELY difficult to keep my emotions in control from now on. This is absolutely tearing me apart. I'm wondering if this is all worth it.

I plan on buying the book you recommend as well as His Needs, Her Needs. I actually went to a bookstore at lunch, but they weren't there. I'll have to check another store.

SVB

svb

Just a couple more thoughts. If you think he's using the computer, you can get a "keylogger" software package that only you'll know about, and you can capture every keystroke he enters on the computer.

You can also purchase telephone recorders, that will record both sides of a phone conversation originating at your home. Some will even capture the numbers dialed.

Scour your credit card receipts... see where he fills the car with gas...meals for two?...gifts YOU didn't get...you get the idea.

Has he bought a phone card? Those calls are pretty untraceable.

Call him for some "help" at work occasionally, and see if he is where he is supposed to be.

Be creative... actually, have a little fun with it, as it will keep you distracted from the pain you are suffering. Try not to obsess about it. All this will take a while to unfold, and then you'll have yet another roller coaster to ride.....withdrawal and recovery.

You have to be the strong half of the marriage, and much of what you have to do will be thankless, selfless, and sometimes, downright depressing. Get individual counseling and consider AD's as some temporary help in your crusade.

Stay strong!

SD

SVB<
You didn't blow it. Besides eventhough I gave you the sage advice not to confront until you had lots of irrefutable evidence. Well guess what someone gave me the same advice in 2002 and due to all of the same anxiety that your feeling I didn't follow their advice either. LOL. It's human nature.

Someone suggested a voice recorder up above. That is what I used to get the ultimate evidence. I heard my wife telling the OM that I was very suspicious and asking lots of questions then I heard the "we'll be soul mates for life" dialogue from Romeo & Juliet. LOL again! One thing to remember that these recorders are not legal in all states. Do you have Radio Shack in your area? They have a model that will record 90 minutes worth of conversation. Sounds like your H's day off is the most likely time that he would potentially call an OW from your house. You plug it into a phone jack. Hopefully you have on in an out of the way place where your H will never check. You want it accessable enough to be able to quickly replace tapes. Under a bed or behind a large piece of furniture.

Although I never tried this I've heard of people putting them in a S's car. Under a seat etc. I'd be afraid they'd see it or the background noise of the car's engine or radio would use all the tape befor something interesting happened.

Another piece of advice. I wish that I had immediately gone to a doctor and gotten on anti-depressants. I waited way too long. Again this was good advice from veterans in 2002 that I ignored. lol. The AD's will calm you down so that you can patiently & calmy attack this infidelity problem head on with out getting anxious and "blowing it" before you have all the evidence.

The key logger is good advice if your H uses the computer alot. What are his home computer habits?? Have you tried the "Control H key" trick II told you about??

Do you have any guesses as to who the OW may be?? Earlier I asked you if there was anyone that the H may have spoken favorably towards and then went silent on? Co-worker? Neighbor? Church member? Think back to what was it 3-4 months ago when your H's behavior started to get strange. Just prior to that had he said anything to this effect.... There's someone new in my dept at work. She's a good team member and works very hard. If so ask your H during your next conversation how that co-worker is working out? Watch and listen for his reaction. It may be a look he gives or his pupils may dialate. Or he may say something disparaging about her...."I thought she'd be a good team member but she really hasn't worked out.....or ...."as I got to know her she was a real "b%t$^".

Give it a try.

I agree with everyone who has said that if H won't go to counseling go alone. It helps. BTW, the fact that he won't go, despite the fact that you told him it was important to you, is another subtle sign that he may be having the A. People feel varying degrees of guilt during A's despite the fog. It takes a tough character who can go to MC and lie to both the S and C. It would deepen the feelings of guilt.

Same with church. If you have been church goers, even if just casually, and now H refuses that's another subtle sign. He doesn't want to feel like a hypocrite so he may refuse to go. My W and I were casual church attendees and, although I never realized it back then, we stopped going altogether during the A. I wish I could show you video of the look on her face when we went to Easter service at the time when I was just figuring out that at a minimum there was an unhealthy relationship/friendship going on. Everyone at church got a piece of paper and had to write down their sins and than nail it to crosses. I thought she was going collapse right there. Despite the denials I knew it was a full blown A from that day forward!!

Anyway I digress.

Are you exercising?? It'll help with the anxiety.

I wish you well.

cwmac

BTW, in an earlier post you said you may try to give him space. If you mean don't accuse him of the A 24x7, good. However Harley says that you must try to spend quality time with H. 15 hours per week. Do not have "relationship" talks during this time. I know it's tough but have fun. Whatever trick you need to use on yourself try it. Assume he is having the A and you know all of the truth and he wants to save his M. This is called Plan A. You need to present to him the best person and spouse that you can be. Or as someone said turn it into a game.. the "be nice to my H so I can Plan A and save my M game"

just another thought,

cwmac

In answer to some of your questions:

I don't have a good idea of who the OW might be specifically. My H works as a manager in a retail/department store that is international. He often visits other stores and interacts with many, many people. He is very attractive and charming. I know that it would be very easy for him to find a willing OW to meet his needs. He has talked of women at work in the past. (I read this over and think -- maybe I AM just a jealous, suspicious W!)

He has also been taking classes on and off. It seems, though, that when he needs study partners, they are always women. He took a class last fall, and thinking about it, his strange behavior began not long after beginning this class. It could be someone from this class.

I like the idea of the phone recorder very much. I have a perfect place for it where it will be hidden. He will not see it or even suspect it. I can use it on his days off. I think this might be my best chance of catching him. I will have to go to Radio Shack and check on this. If, in the end, there are no incriminating phone calls, I will know that I am just a jealous W. My gut tells me, however, that this is probably not the case.

As for the computer, he doesn't use it very much -- only every 2-3 days to check for email. I tried the Control H thing, but it didn't work. I must be doing something wrong.

Regarding giving him some space, I plan on NOT having relationship talks or ask him where he has been on his days off anymore. I will leave it up to him to give me information on his own, if he wants to. (Which is what he says he will do eventually as soon as I stop "interrogating" him.)

I've noticed that since I confronted him for the first time last week (and we had our long talk), as long as I am not talking about our relationship, he has been more talkative and relatively pleasant. Not as much as I'd like yet, but there has been a vast improvement. Before last week, he would barely talk to me at all and was very mean, irritable, and sarcastic when he did speak. He would not let me hug him or touch him in any way. Now we hug and kiss more often. I don't know if this is just a way to throw me off his track, or if he is sincerely coming around in this M.

Thanks again everyone for your support and suggestions.

svb

svb,
I don't think you are being jealous regarding your concerns. From what you've posted your H is at a minimum withdrawn and cold to you and at the extreme he is having an A. Either way not the treatment you signed up for when you said "I do." Have you been jealous in the past over his female friends?

You said your H was "charming" Give examples of his behavior towards other women when you are around.

Does he have what I call the "white knight" syndrom. Meaning does he go to the "rescue" of female friends? Did he ever treat you that way early in your relationship?

Sounds like the recorder is the option for you. Hopefully if something is going on he'll call her from the house. Buy extra tapes so if you always have a couple of spares. Without a cell phone he probably normally calls from work. Does he work late hours? Maybe you should buy his and her cell phones as a "gift". Some phone companies don't record the number of incoming calls anymore. (if my W started her A today I wouldn't be as posative the hundreds of cell calls because only her calls to him would have been itemized on the bill.

As I said before get your H to spend quality time with you. 15 hours per week. Go for walks at the beach, park whatever. What activities do you have in common? Sports , hobbies?? The main web page has a questionaire with great ideas.

cwmac

cwmac,

I say that my husband is "charming" because he is very outgoing and talkative and likes to joke around, particularly with women. Women really like him. He receives all kinds of gifts from women at work (both single and married) for Christmas and other occasions. (This could be harmless, I know.) When I've visited his workplace, his female coworkers just gush at how wonderful he is. I guess you can say that I have been jealous in the past over his female friends, for instance, I've never been comfortable with his female study buddies, but I don't think I've been extreme.

He absolutely has the "white knight" syndrome. He was that way with me when we met. I was living and home and my father was ill (he passed away last year) and my mother was very controlling. All my husband wanted to do was to marry me and "take me away from there."

He also has a male friend that divorced at least five years ago. We were friends with that couple while they were married. His friend has since remarried (he was seeing another woman before they divorced.) about two years ago. His ex-wife however, calls my husband to this day. She last called in November asking for him, because she REALLY needed to talk to him about something. When they were divorcing and recently divorced she called him more often, crying to him a lot of the time. It always seemed inappropriate to me. Doesn't she have family or female friends to talk to, as opposed to married men? I told him this and he said that he didn't like her calling him, either. I figured this was all harmless, otherwise it would be hidden from me. She also lives about 900 miles from here. Still, though, this demonstrates the "white knight" syndrome to me.

Does having the "white knight" syndrome mean that he is more likely to be unfaithful?

I would like to spend more quality time with my H. Before last week, every time I suggested going somewhere, such as seeing a movie, he said he didn't feel like it. Our schedules usually don't permit it, either. We rarely have the same day off. When I am not working, I am in class much of the time, or I need to study. At this point I'm sorry I ever decided to get my graduate degree.

Right now all we do is spend a lot of our time together just watching TV, sometimes speaking, sometimes not. I might suggest seeing a movie this weekend, depending on how our schedules are, and see how he reacts.

svb,
My W's OM was a "white knight" That's how the whole thing started. She worked with him 20 years ago and they lost track of each other until 2001. I can't remember exactly... I think he invited us to a "showing" and I didn't go. I know dumb. Hindsight is 20/20. I've always gotten a vibe from him about my W and was always a bit jealous of him. Not jealous of him the man or person but jealous of the glowing way my W would describe him when we were first married. As a superman (believe me he's not)

Any way that harmless first meeting turned into a lunch..into several lunches. They both did the typical "I've got a boy/girl friend two step" that we all did in HS or college. Meaning I'm married but not happily. My W told him what a big ugly angry monster I was. I get the feeling that he really had to exaggerate to come up with equivalent bad news about his W.

Once the door was opened to talk about personal matters the realtionship could grow to an emotional affair to a physical and back again to just an emotional affair.

BTW, the divorced wife that your husband has "rescued" in the past may or may not be the OW. Are you sure she's still 900 miles away. If you can w/out raising suspicions, ask about her. Say...we haven't heard from Mrs. _____ in a while. I wonder how she's doing? See if that starts any conversation from your H.

How good of a liar is your H? You said he was charming so my guess is he's a good one.

IMHO all men have some "white knight" in them. It is a way to get close to women and it makes us feel needed. Feeling needed is usually high up a man's list of needs.

I know nothing about post graduste work but is it possible to take a break from it at the end of the next term?? It sounds as though it would be worthwhile to look into.

cwmac

SVB,

Here is something else you can look into, about that chocolate and the "silks"....

<blockquote>quote:<hr />He said it was chocolate for me, the neighbor, and a tie for himself.<hr /></blockquote>Is this neighbor an elderly shut-in? How many married men buy chocolate for their neighbors on Valentine's Day? I find this very strange behavior.

As for the "silks..." You can call the store and ask them what type of item would ring up as "silks." Would it be a man's tie or women's lingerie?

BTW, did he show it the tie to you? Is there a new tie in his closet?

Keep your eyes open and your wits about you. you are in my prayers.

~ Snow

Regarding the tie and the chocolate -

He did not show me a tie. I believe the tie is exactly where the wine that he bought is - nonexistant. He's got so many ties, if I check them, I'm not sure which is new or old. I've got a code on the receipt for the "satins" and I might go to the store this weekend to check it out.

As for the chocolate, he might have purchased chocolate for the neighbor. Our neighbors are very good friends of ours. They are older - they could be our parents. We almost feel like their adopted kids, especially my husband. We always exchange gifts and have gone on trips together. I would love to ask them about the chocolate, but if I did, I'm sure I would look like a jealous wife to them. So this could be true, but I'm not sure.

My husband is a fantastic lier. I suppose that is why I am in so much doubt. Because of that and because I really want to believe him, I suppose.

Also, about the friend's xW, I doubt that she is the OW. We moved away from our hometown. She is still there. The only way she would be here is because she followed him here.

I do believe, though, that if he is in an A, it could very well have started with him being a "white knight." It is very much like him. I can just imagine him complaining about how horrible I am, too. I'm really sorry to hear about your situation, too. I hope things are going well for you now.

Well, he just got home from work. Time to work on plan A some more. He seems to be in a good mood.

Thanks again.
svb

svb,

Earlier you said and Iforgot to comment on
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Right now all we do is spend a lot of our time together just watching TV, <hr /></blockquote>TV doesn't count for part of your 15 hours of quality time probably because of that zombie state everyone seems to fall into. Movies are usually better. Dinners walks sports etc.

also you said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Also, about the friend's xW, I doubt that she is the OW. We moved away from our hometown. She is still there. The only way she would be here is because she followed him here. <hr /></blockquote>I've seen stranger things on this board than a W moving to a new city to be near someone she feels an emotional closeness to. Especially if she felt there was nothing left for her in the small town.

and lastly....

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'm really sorry to hear about your situation, too. I hope things are going well for you now. <hr /></blockquote>Thank you for those words. Once my W realized that I new about the EA, she realized it had to end. Unfortunately she didn't come clean to the P part until almost 18 months later so alot of our recovery was a false one. There are days when the feelings of humiliation & anger creep into my thoughts but in general our relationship is getting better.

Recently the OM e-mailed her and she came right to me and told me. That really helped with the trust factor.

Good luck on the Plan A over the weekend.

cwmac

Get the recorder from RadioShack. That will give you the truth. They are not too expensive and are worth it. Just plug it in and go somewhere.

However please be prepared for what you may hear.

Here is an update:

I went to the store this weekend to check on the tie story. His tie story checked out. I took numbers from the receipt and compared them to the ties in the store. First of all, the original and sale prices match. Second, some of the numbers on the receipt were numbers of the men's dept. This gives me a little hope.

Plan A went very well this weekend. My H did not work on Sunday. Although he didn't feel like going out, he is interested in being physical again. He is also being more thoughtful of me in other little ways. This also gives me more hope. Still, a part of me still wonders - is he really coming around in this M, or is he just trying to get me off his track, now that I am suspicious?

I am also understanding a little more of why he might be depressed (besides work). I have mentioned my neighbors previously (our adopted parents). The husband (who has been more of a father to my husband than his own father) has been suffering from cancer, and has been feeling worse lately. We had a visit from the neighbor's wife on Sunday morning, who discussed her husband's health. I could see the concern and pain on my H's face.

Overall, I am really confused about this whole situation. I am starting to feel really silly about everything, and I am wondering if I still want to even purchase a phone recorder. Do I really want to know the truth anyway? I struggle with this constantly. Maybe it is better if I never find out and the possible A dies out.

At the same time, it bothers me that there are certain things that my H tells me that just don't jive. On 4 of his past days off (not including yesterday when he was with me) 1 day he did not go anywhere. On the other 3 days he put approx. 50 miles on his car each day. One day he told me that he went to buy wine (no proof of this wine). The second time, he got around answering me at all. The third time, he said he had a meeting at work at another site. It all still makes me feel uncomfortable - along with the physical evidence that has not been explained. I also catch him in other little lies. For instance, he had his car repaired recently. He had a rental car while it was repaired. After he turned in the rental, we received a voicemail from the rental place. They wanted to contact him about his questions on purchasing a used rental SUV. When I asked him about it, he just blew it off, saying "they're confused, I just asked about renting a SUV." However, I hit redial after he went to work on Saturday, and it automatically dialed the rental sales office. So he returned their call. Why does he lie? It's these little lies about everything that make me so suspicious. I never mentioned anything to him about the calls.

Am I just a horrible, insensitive, jealous wife?

svb

I am back to vent again. I hope you all don't mind.

After what I thought was a good weekend and was given some hope, I am back into a state of anxiety. Since the weekend, my H has slipped back into his cold, mean self again. He does not speak to me unless I speak to him. When I do try to speak to him, or kiss him "hello" or "goodbye," he acts annoyed. He is extremely irritable. He doesn't care one bit about what I do or what is going on in my life. He doesn't ask me anything. I feel completely ignored. I really miss the man that I married almost ten years ago.

I am really beginning to feel like LBing again. It is really difficult not to feel this way after my H's behavior towards me. I really feel like anti-depressants might help me keep calm and not LB, but I couldn't schedule an appt. with my doctor until next week. I just need to hang on until then.

I thought about waiting to purchase a phone recorder with the hope that I wouldn't need it, but now I feel that I don't have much of a choice.
I will go out and buy one tonight. My H has the day off again tomorrow, and maybe I will discover something. I can just picture him tomorrow after I come home from work. He will be freshly showered and doing laundry, while he cooks dinner (which is what he has done on all of his other suspicious days off).

Did I ever mention that he does his own laundry? He has been doing this for a while now (about a year). His excuse is that he doesn't want me to "mess up" his clothes. This is just something else that makes me go... Hmmmm.
I wonder, if in fact an A is happening, how long has it REALLY been going on? As well as, how many times has an A happened in the past?

Thanks again for letting me vent.

Girl, you have all reasons to be suspicious. There are too many signs, and I am almost sure from your description. The detective work might be extremely hard.

ANyways..keep us update.. I don't mind reading. I didn't do any detective work.. because I was BLINDLY in love with my husband and thought he would never cheat on me...so even when he was mean and cold and wasn't interested in sex anymore..I just blamed it on work and stress..until the day he cracked and told me he was having an EA then had one PA...
You have time to be prepare for the truth. The other members here have given you very good advice about not confronting him about anything solid. Expect him to go in anger if he found out that you were recording him. If you find something concrete.. tell us ...then we can talk whether it is the time to confront him. Do not go Lbing because you want to save your marriage.

Big hugs*

SVB,
On the subject of clothes....some men do their own. I do mine but I've done that from the time before we were married thru today. I didn't start six monthes before my changed behavior was very obvious to my wife though.

That's another sign that something is going on.

Plan A your butt off. Be nice even if he snarls. Do some things for yourself. Exercise however you are able to: walk, jog, run, etc.

Let me give a bit more advice on the subject of Radio Shack. Since you don't have a doctor's appointment until after his next day off, I would advise this------> Set up the machine to record on his day off but knowing how I reacted to what I heard I wouldn't listen to the tape until after being on the perscribed meds for a few days. I know that you'll be anxious and curious but wait until the meds have had a chance to flatten out the mood swings. After all you can't change his behavior between now and then anyway.

Learn from my mistakes. I confronted my wife within a few days of the subject conversation. That was a mistake. Besides not being on meds and getting anxious and upset, I should have waited until after several such conversations. As it was she was able to deny the P aspect of the A but not the E aspect. It wasn't until 18 months later that she fianlly confessed leeding to alot of wasted "false recovery" time. It will seem impossible to wait but it is for your long term good and a faster recovery.

Anyway good luck.

cwmac

Some things that happened to me that appear to be typical about the (in your case, alledged) WS.

This was all written with recovery in mind, and after a "successful" confrontation, so some of it might be a bit ahead of where you are at right now.

* Peculiar and wavering state of mind. Attribute this to their own desire to continue the A, in spite of knowing its wrong, and, also the realization that huge amounts of damage have been done and they have NO IDEA how to deal with it.

* Deep, DEEP down inside their hearts, they are experiencing two diametricly (SP?) opposed feelings of grief. One for the marriage they damaged, the other for the OP. Again, they don't know how to process both feelings at the same time.

* Emotional detachment. Knowing the pain they have caused, they are much more likely to hide from the pain, rather than face it straight up. This allows them to keep the fantasy alive.

* Argumentative and combative. WS's can be an endless fountain of LB's and disrespectful remarks designed solely to make the BS angry and respond with a vengence. This allows them to stay emotionally detached, and shift the BLAME for the affair having taken place to the BS.

* Sullen, quiet, withdrawn. All this a result of a combination of the above items. Look how much of an emotional drain it is to be the BS. The WS has an equal amount of emotional drama to deal with, it's just way different than what we, as the BS are going through.

* Complaints of being smothered. Of course. BS's are in Plan A, doing all the right things, and at the same time seeking answers, remorse, groveling (LOL), revenge, love, EN's, and some sense of the WS explaining the affair and returning to the marriage. And this is what the BS's expect in the first HOUR after DDay. Way too many emotions are in play, and both parties have needs that cannot be properly met by the other for several weeks, until the fervor of emotions wains, and people are thinking with clear minds. All of these things take time, and effort. Words to a foggy WS are like throwing cotton balls at a crocodile.

* WS's are all about them. It's me, me, me for the longest time. It's still all about the selfish mode they assumed to allow the A to happen and continue. Plan A, sort of keeps that in place. That's where care and caution need to come into play, so that as the fog lifts for a moment, a BS may have to employ "tough love", without LB's and DJ's. Timing and delivery are everything during this stage.

* Continued contact. Most of the posts I've seen here refer to more than one promise of NC before it truly takes place. Setbacks are common. My WW had 4 breeches before I believed this last "promise" might be the real deal.

* Lack of interest in learning how to recover. They are in such a state of denial, among other things, that they "don't need to recover". I finally "coerced" WW to read SAA aloud with me, but it was just a courtesy to me that she did it. It meant nothing to her, because at the time, she was still living the fantasy.

All these things seem to be pretty typical. I'm sure other posters can add more. Time, time, time, is the final answer, but the time spent needs to be filled with carefully executed Plan A, or Plan B, depending on the circumstances. Mix in some boundry setting, so the WS has some consequences for errors in His/Her ways, and hang on for the ride. Make the times that you have together pleasant for both of you, and choose NOT to talk about the A, recovery, OP, most of the time. Those talks should be semi-occasional, and not drawn out to become confrontational.

I don't know if any of these things might explain some of what you are going through, but I bet it might.

Stay strong and energized. You can survive this.

SD

Well, my plan was foiled yesterday on setting up the recorder. I purchased it after work and planned on setting it up last night. When I came home, however, my H was there! He was supposed to work late - till 10. I had to leave it in the trunk. I checked his miles. Sure enough - 50 extra miles. (He works 3 miles away). I got that sick feeling in my stomach.

I walked in the house and he was doing laundry and cooking dinner. (not freshly showered, however.) He said he left early 3:30 ( I got home at 6:30) because he worked a long day the day before 7am -10pm. He also said he went to get a massage because he was stressed and sore. (He's got a receipt). He VOLUNTEERED all of this information, I did not ask him anything besides "I thought you worked till 10 today?" This is not his normal behavior lately, to volunteer information. I didn't mention the miles. I honestly don't know if it was from yesterday or the day before. Could he have travelled to another work site for a meeting? It's all possible. I don't know.

Anyway, I'm proud to say that I kept my calm. cwmac, as difficult as it was, I planned A'd my butt off as you suggested. He seemed really cautious (best word I could think of to describe him) when I first came home. I think he really expected me to confront him and LB. Afterwards, he was in a really good mood and pleasant. (relieved, maybe?) I read somewhere else on this board that someone mentioned that his W "is probably thanking her lucky stars that she's got such a gullible H." That's how I feel right now, like a gullible W. I'm happy that we had a positive night, though.

It's probably for the best that I couldn't set up the recorder just yet since I can't see my Dr. until next week, as you say, cwmac.

SD, thanks for your post, too. Everything you say seems to ring true in my situation, particularly with his wavering state of mind. It helps me see his side of things a little bit and understand his behavior.

The one thing I can say is that in the slim chance that nothing is going on with my H (or even if there is) my M will be hopefully be stronger in the long run with the help of this website and the members posting here with advice.

Thanks again, everyone, for your help.

svb

svb,
I'll keep my fingers crossed that we're wrong and that your H is just secretly taking dance lessons on his day off to surprise you.

cwmac

Sorry if the black humor isn't appreciated but you have to keep things light or the insanity sets in.

No, I really appreciate and need the humor. Thanks.

Well, I'm home again and there's another 50 miles on his car after his day off today. He's on the couch watching tv as if everything is normal. And I can't ask him anything!

I don't know how I'm going to get through this. My heart is pounding so fast.

svb

svb,
If you're feeling "jumpy" then it's only a matter of time before you are going to blow it and LB either by getting mad or becoming the "grand inquisitor"

So............Get out of the house for awhile. Are you west coast or east? If east go for a drive. Yell at your H while you're driving and get it all out. If your west coast it's a beautiful day go for a walk. Think the yelling thru in your mind.

You need to keep your mind busy so that you'll keep your mouth shut. Sorry to say but true.

cwmac

I'm happy to say that I kept my calm after all last night. Coming to this board really helped/helps me keep my focus on doing the right things. I was just quiet at first, and did not ask him AT ALL about what he did on his day off. I am trying really hard to be a loving and supportive W that he would want to be around.

He became relatively talkative and thoughtful last night. He even talked about us taking a trip to Cancun between my school semesters this spring!

Can anyone tell me, in their experience, does a H who is possibly having an A normally want to take a trip with his W like this? Or is this just a guilt thing?

I have to admit, he definitely seems to be coming out of his withdrawal stage, despite a couple of bad days. He is more willing to let me meet his EN, and meet some of mine as well.

I just grow more and more confused every day.

SVB,
Sounds as though you did weel last night. Congrats on that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am trying really hard to be a loving and supportive W that he would want to be around. <hr /></blockquote>That's what Plan A is all about!!!

As for his talking about a trip. My W planned a family vacation to Europe. All the while in the midst of "hot & heavey" EA. She acted like such a pain on the trip that I was rude back so of course this rationalized her behavior. Their "sex expedition" occurred withina week of returning from this "vacation of a lifetime."

Harley says that WS are involved in lying. They of course lie to the BS but they also lie to the A partner.

If he is having an A, who knows what he's telling her. He may tell her that you are the monster of all times when you aren't in reality. BTW, he may not even mean it, but it's away to keep her interested. He may be telling her that you and he never have sex when it may be every day. etc. etc.

There are alot of possibilities. Work on Plan A. Hopefully on his next day off you'll get some evidence that will help you plan your stategy to save your M.

Have a good weekend!!

cwmac

Uggh! That's exactly what I was afraid to hear! I guess it doesn't mean anything that he wants to take a trip together. I guess if we go I will just try to make it as pleasant as possible.

I don't think that I'll be able to use my phone recorder after all. My special place for it is with a phone jack that doesn't work. I can't have it repaired w/o bringing my H's attention to it. My 2nd choice for a place for it has a higher chance of being discovered. I don't think I'd like to risk it.

Plan A has been working very well. I haven't slipped up at all recently. I'm noticing more and more changes in my H. He is beginning to open up to me more, particularly about work. Yesterday and today he came home from work going on and on about certain things. I was so stunned that he was talking so much that I didn't even know how to react. It was almost as if I were near a deer and was afraid that if I made any sudden movements I would scare him away!

I think I'm coming to terms with the fact that I may never know the truth about my H. I'll keep my eyes and ears open, and if I discover something, fine. If not, so be it. I don't think I have much of a choice. Hopefully, if plan A continues to go well, the possible A will eventually die out and he will no longer be interested in any OW. This is my wishful thinking anyway.

SVB,
That's too bad about the recorder. The reason I say this is that IMHO it would be better to know for sure that he either is or isn't having the A whether E or P or both. That way if he isn't you will be able to totally trust him in the future. If he is you'll know it and although heartbreaking you can then decide what you want to do. You can decide to either try and repair the M or not.

As you indicated there will always be that doubt in your mind even if he is totallly innocent.

If the recorder won't work, you may want to consider hiring a PI to observe him on his day off to see where he goes for those 50 miles. I was going to do that before I heard the "conversations" I even sent the PI a check from our account. I told the W it was work related. If that's too risky start accumulating cash from ATM w/drawals. You can then pay with a cashier check or money order.

Just a few thoughts,

If you decide to leave MB's I wish you well.

cwmac

You can always buy him a cell phone. Just make sure the company you sign up with shows the number of the incoming calls on the statements.

Verizon used to but now doesn't. Probably trying to save $$. If my W were having tha A today I may not have discovered it.

cwmac

cwmac,

My H is anti-cell phone, so that probably wouldn't work.

However, the PI idea might work. The thought actually crossed my mind. Can you give me an idea on what a PI might charge for a day?

svb

SVB,
I looked into it back during discovery in Winter 2002 so unfortunately I don't remember. Look in yellow pages or look on the web in your state. If you're in southern Ca. I can give you the contact info.

If you look on the web make sure you erase the sites from History in case your H knows how to check.

To erase go to Tools in your browser. Drop down to Internet Options. On the General tab. Clear History and delete Files and Cookies. To check to make sure this worked press Control & H simultaneously and the History box will open. You can then hand delete anything referencing PI.

Should also probably do this for MB pages as well.

cwmac

I thought that I would post and give a little update on my situation.

Things have been steadily getting better. My H has really been surprising me lately. He has been happier than usual, more talkative, and more attentive to my needs. He even called me at work last Friday to ask if I had class last Saturday (he was off from work), and if not, he suggested we go see a movie. I got home from work Friday night and he suggested that we go out to dinner! This is after 4 months of NOTHING.

Although this is all very encouraging to me, I still have many moments of doubt. For instance, last Saturday, his day off, he decided to go shopping for a new bike. When I asked if I could go with him, he said "no." He was back in two hours. He didn't buy a bike, but he did stop at a store to pick up a couple of things. I know,it could be nothing.

My problem is that I feel that I will always have doubt at the back of my mind. I don't know if I can ever trust him again after all of his lies. Although I feel better in general (my new ADs help, I think, along with his encouraging behavior), I still feel anxious sometimes, and sad that I might never feel the same love and trust towards my H that I felt when we were first married. It is heartbreaking to me.

Hiring a PI might give me some answers and ultimate peace, but I checked on the rates, and I think it would take me forever to squirrel away that kind of money for one day of trailing him.

I guess all I can do is just take things one day at a time for now.

SVB,
Sorry to hear that the PI won't work because it would give you peace of mind if he isn't having an affair.

He could be innocent. Or...remember one of the signs of an A is a noticable change in behavior. From my readings I've seen numerous hints that seem to be opposites. For example one of the hints is a change in sexual behavior ie more sex than usual or less sex than usual are both hints. The point is the drastic change in behavior.

Most people don't change overnight without a reason. Sorry if I'm jaded towards presuming guilt over innocence.

Also why wouldn't he let you go on the bike shopping expedition? What activities do the two of you do together?

cwmac

I think you're right, cwmac. I know I was suspicious before when he shut me out of his life for 4 months, but now I am STILL suspicious now that he's doing a total turnaround. It does seem odd, in a way. Why the sudden turnaround after I confronted him? I've confided in one of my friends about my situation, and she thinks it's sort of odd as well. She actually pointed it out, but I didn't want to think about it at the time. Again DENIAL.

What makes me feel worse now is that I've just come home from work after his day off, and sure enough there are 48 miles on his car. I swore I wouldn't ask him about his day, but I did. He said he went looking for bikes again. Uh-huh. Of course he is freshly showered and doing laundry.

I am severely disappointed because I thought, maybe deep in my heart, that his turnaround was sincere. Now I am back at square one. Especially since, for a week, I hadn't noticed any extra miles on his car. (two weeks ago). I didn't check this past week (until this morning) and I noticed a TON of miles on the car. I just can't figure out when he went- except for maybe Monday night when I went to class. And now his secret expedition today.

I guess I can't let my guard down again. I'll have to keep checking up on him, as much as I can, anyway.

It makes me sad about the bikes. We used to go bike riding together all the time, especially when we were dating. Now it seems to be something that he wants to do by himself. I told him I'd like to go shopping with him because I'd like a new bike as well. He said that I would never use the bike. I told him we can go on bike trips together, like we used to, but he just blew me off.

Like I said, this is all so heartbreaking.

So what do I do? How do I get him to confess, or stop? Do I just plan A forever until I find more evidence? Part of plan A is making your H cut off all contact w/OW, and exposing the A, and I can't do that. What if he never comes clean and I never find anything? I can't live like this forever.

[ March 30, 2004, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: svb ]

I am not sure what you can afford, but there is a device called "GPS ON Record" at gpsonsale.com that you can hide in a car and play back every where the car went, how long it was parked and what speed it drove at. I will play back trip on a city map. Records 300 hr of driving and batteries are good for 30 days. $299. You might find it on e-bay for less. Or sell it after you are finished with it on ebay.

Good luck at getting some resolution.

Just read your whole thread. Your situation has some red flags that I would like to address.

My fwh was a serial cheater, a skirtchaser, for many years of our marriage. I didn't know. I was uncomfortable with his friendliness and charm with women, but he had me convinced that I was just a jealous person. I felt confused much of the time. He seemed to love me and even bragged about what a great marriage we had.

In retrospect my confusion came from denying the reality that lay before me, too horrible for my mind to consider as truth. When I finally learned the whole of what he had done, what he was, I was blown away by the level of deception, from a "good" man.

Here's the reality: men who charm women are after sex. Flirtation has one goal...sexual attention and affirmation. It's a sign that the spouse is willing to cross boundaries meant to protect the marriage relationship.

And here's a scary thought that never occurred to me--they act even more free and flirtatious when their spouse is not there. I assumed my husband was the same person when I wasn't there, but his flirtations were even more outrageous in my absence, thus the gushing of his female co-workers.

Your husbands moods towards you could reflect his desire to have an affair and a marriage too, or his affair could be going particularly well and his happiness about that could be spilling over into the marriage.

We took many family vacations that I thought were fine while he was pining away for ow.

I don't know if your husband is having an affair, but from everything you have said, I would be extremely suspcious. You are not jealous or crazy. There are too many signs to ignore.

His lack of concern for your fears and his non-accountability for his time/miles are signs of a selfish "single-minded" spouse.

Can you rent a car on his day off? Borrow one from your girlfriend who knows your suspicions? Don't go to school or work and follow him. Get a floppy hat and some sunglasses. See where he goes. You need to know the truth. He is not open enough not to have something to hide.

I know you value your marriage above your schooling and your job. Now might be a time to put some other things on the back burner so he doesn't have so much free time without you. It's a license to do whatever.

If he is just letting you hang yourself with your spoken insecurities, then he is at least a heartless person.

I know I have given you a lot to think about. But I hope I can save you some of the years I suffered. Our marriage is now in a better place but it has been very difficult. Better to know all than to allow all.

I have to say that I completely agree with what Realychk said. You need to know the truth, and the signs are obvious of an affair or affairs. It might seems like we do not want you off the hook. If he gets away with it, you do not know what might be coming soon.. a baby? a sudden break down from him? What about your trust? At the moment you are so suspicious of him, yet you are scared to find out the truth. It seems like you do not want to know. You want to look at the dust and put it under the carpet.. too easy on him. TOO HARD ON YOU! You have to do your own investigation, if you find nothing.. continue plan A.. even during your investigation. WS likes to have their cake and it too.. the more you are friendly with them, the more they are happier with the OW and it continues.
I tried for a week, to ignore him with the OW and acted like it was just the two of us, but I couldn't help but feel like something just WASN"T RIGHT! I tried not to look at his cellphone.. everything, but I just HAD TO! and I keep discovering and discovering he was still in contact after he keeps denying any contact with the OW. They LIE AND WILL CONTINUE to lie until REALITY SEEKS IN!

It is still painful to talk about. I am ok. WH has stop contact on his own and the OW stopped insisting, when he found out she was a slut.... I even asked him if he beleived in monogamy..because I don't want to "CRAMP" his style. Yes, I wanted to be FRANK! I have to be like this to protect myself...I will not say finding out your spouse is cheating is good, but not knowing.. and being in the darkness is mad crazy!

Babygirl, I know you are doing plan A , and I have been following your thread. Do what RealityCHK said, follow him! Buy some cool custumes..(might as well have fun with it.)

YOU NEED TO KNOW! Asking him isn't going to work obviously....

Big hugs from Queen Harudah... Keep your head up, school work.. The affair destroyed me more than I show to people.. my eyes are dry from crying and confidence has dropped, but it is going back. But my love bank had a big withdraw for my WH. I am not DEEPLY in love anymore.....not willing to do anything anymore. My marriage is in recovery, and we've been taking the necessary steps for it. I will have to built myself, but I am not going to be the one forcing anything anymore. I am not going to be the DOER all the time. I think this has helped me wake up and try to bite my life . I'm 22, I was married at 18 my H is 9 years older than me.. and he cheated with a 30 year old..and girl.. if he is cheating.. its not YOU ..its HIM.. the OW is ugly and HUGE!

well bye big hugs***

Thank you, everyone, on your suggestions on getting the truth.

RCC and Harudah, what you say is extremely difficult to hear, but I do need a "reality check" as well. I know that I would like to pretend that this cannot be happening and hope that it all goes away, but I do not think that it is possible.

RCC, how did you find out about your H? Did you find evidence and confront him, or did he just tell you? How do you know how he behaves when you're not around? Just wondering.

I am having another EXTREMELY difficult time tonight. My H was off today and I had class tonight. Sure enough, there are 47 miles on his car. I spoke to him from work at 11:30 and 5pm today, so he snuck off between these times. Both times I talked to him, he acted as if he was doing "nothing" today. I REALLY want to confront him and ask him where he goes on all of his days off. He must really think that I am STUPID! I FEEL stupid for letting him get away with this.

He is off again on Thursday. I would love to be able to call in sick with a migraine just to see what his reaction would be. I'm not ready to trail him yet. I'm looking into that device. I'm also seriously considering finding a way to pay for a PI. I think I might be able to swing it.

Wish me luck, everyone. I can't take this much more.

Good! Hugs* My H told me. He couldn't hold it. Not a bad idea to take a day off when he is off! See what happens.. He might have a sudden emergency at work.. (They become professional after a while). Do not say anything when he says that.. just say ok. Hopefully he would want to spend the day with you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have my fingers crossed..that we're all wrong and everything that is going on is just that heis taking dance classes to surprise you.. or is your birthday coming up? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I really hope he was just drepressed or so..

Hugs***

I am very sorry to raise the possiblility that your husband may be cheating. I know it is a horror to seriously consider. My heart goes out to you, and I hope that your situation is different from mine when all is said and done.

You asked how I found out about my husband's unfaithfulness and his more flirtatious behavior when I wasn't around. I had questioned him about diffent things through the years, times I felt hurt by his behavior or suspicious about his feelings or relationship with women. At the time, he denied EVERYTHING, and had me convinced that he was just a wonderful, friendly guy, and I was a suspiciuos, jealous person.

Not until years later, when he got an std did he confess to having affairs. Through the many conversations that followed his revelation, we delved into the behaviors that led to the affairs--the skirtchasing and flirtations.

He has been open to explore his emotions and needs and has come to the conclusion that he was a person who wanted it all and didn't think he would harm me as long as I didn't find out. He has gone into a lot of detail now about how he related to other women then, was really a person I didn't know.

He enjoyed our marriage but also wanted to go out and party and experience other women. He felt entitled to enjoy whatever he could get away with, as our culture says men should. He didn't realize that he was leaching the life out of me and out of our love.

Our intimacy suffered terribly. He never made the connection that I became withdrawn from him and felt a terrible distance, but I just thought him incapable of true intimacy and settled for what I could get. I felt a dull anger and discontent over the years, but got joy out of our children, and what relationship we did have. We had frequent sex, but I always felt "used", like he was using my body for his own pleasure, not making love with me, in the moment.

I knew he didn't feel passionately romantic about me anymore and I didn't feel it for him either, but just thought we were "okay" and nothing could be done to improve our situation. I thought we were fine. I honestly thought he was just content with less romance than I was! When he confessed, it all made sense.

What a crock of manipulation and deceit I had put up with. I was shocked and disturbed by my own ability to deny reality and that I was willing to settle for such a shallow relationship.

I tell you this in the hope that you can glean from my story.

Your best result will come from SNOOPING, not from asking or accusing. You need to become independent in your own mind, ie, if he is cheating, he is not thinking of you as a couple, and to catch him, you must detach enough to look at HIM, not you as a "couple".

As Harudah has wisely pointed out, you are so torn, wanting to know yet too afraid of what you may find out. You need to buckle down and do it--you really are better off knowing the truth, whatever it is. If he IS cheating, finding out is the best way to save your marriage.

Wow, RCC, everything you say hits so close to home! Your H really sounds like my H!

Particularly--

--My H puts on a show in front of family and friends of how "wonderful" our marriage is and how much he loves me. However, at home, there is no real "connection" or "intimacy," or only at times. My H is not the type to say "I love you." In fact, he never has. I have to usually ask him and he responds "yes," or "you know." He also does not give compliments. He has told me in the past that he learned that it is gives women a big head and it is what they expect to hear "they usually fish for compliments" and he will not do that.

--When I have been suspicious in the past about certain behaviors - going out and not telling me, girls from class calling, etc.- he just makes me out to be a jealous wife. As a matter of fact, I was particularly suspicious at one point a couple of years ago. He would come home late from work. He would get off from work, say at 11pm, but not come home till 1:30 or 2am. When I would ask him where he was he would say he had to stay late at work. I would say "then why do you smell like smoke?" Then he would admit that he went out for a drink with a buddy after work, but didn't want to tell me because I thought he would get mad. I bought it! I didn't want to believe anything else, I suppose. It's amazing, though, that after a few months, he stopped "hanging out" with this buddy. He never came home late from work like that again.

--He has the attitude in general that "what a person doesn't know won't hurt him/her." He has made comments like that in the past about different things. I also know that he feels "entitled." I can't put my finger on this one, but it is just his attitude. He is the type to try to get away with things, in general. The rules don't ever apply to him. I know that he would apply this to "marriage rules" as well.

What is your H's personality like? Is he controlling? Is he a perfectionist, particularly about his appearance? I can't even TOUCH his hair or clothes in public! He is very vain. He loves his cologne, too. The funny thing is, I NEVER catch him looking at other women.

His past might say something as well. When we met, I was 20 and he was 26. I was shy and reserved and had never been with another man. He, on the other hand, told me that he had been with many women. He said that he was never in love before and that being with women was just a "game" to him. When he realized that I was apprehensive and didn't like his past, he NEVER mentioned it again. I've always wondered, though, if he would look for other women in the future. He said he had it out of his system and he was more worried about ME, not having slept with another man. He thought I might get curious and cheat. This has NEVER crossed my mind (he knows it now - he has come to this realization by himself over the years). I have been so stupid and so in love. He has been and is all I ever needed.

Here are some questions about your H and serial cheaters.

-How is your recovery going?
-Can a serial cheater really recover?
-Was it just sex for your H, or was he "in love" or emotionally attached?
-How DID he relate to women in the past compared to now?

Sorry for my long post, as always.

[ March 30, 2004, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: svb ]

I just have one more thought.

Looking at my last post, I've come to the realization that he will NEVER feel guilty and come clean on his own. I have to catch him.

He is pretending that everything is OK so I can forget about this. That is why he is having this amazing turnaround (including our trip to Cancun.) I won't forget about it. I will plan A, and gather proof.

[ March 30, 2004, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: svb ]

svb Please email me at nightsong02@hotmail.com
I have lots to say but would prefer to do so privately if that is okay with you.

I am still having a really difficult time. This whole issue has consumed me. I can think of nothing else and it is affecting my work, my schoolwork, and everything else. I have a difficult time sleeping and have lost 19 pounds so far. I'm not sure if my AD's are working. I only notice that they do help me keep my anxiety under control around my husband and I do not LB (so much).

My H really confuses me with his turnaround. He acts as if there is nothing wrong with our M now. He doesn't think that we need MC, and does not want to talk about R issues at all. I kind of hinted around filling out an EN questionnaire, but he said he doesn't want to. I am wondering if I should fill one out for me and give it to him. I think I might just be LBing if I do (acting needy). I know that I must have sickened him with trying to talk about our relationship during the 4 months he shut me out of his life. I am happier now that we are communicating more and spending time together, but I still feel like things are not right, although I'm sure he'd like me to. I still feel like he is hiding something, and he is not fully affectionate like he used to be.

I am battling acting suspicious around him. If I want to catch him I don't think I can let on that I am suspicious, but it is so difficult. He ran off to the other room last night to make a phone call. I asked him who he called, though I know I probably shouldn't have. He said he called his sister. When I hit "redial" later on, I found that he had erased the number. A few minutes after he came back from the call, and he asked if I have class on Saturday. We are both off on Saturday and I don't have class. I asked him "why?" He said that we can plan to do something. I really feel that he asked because he wants to sneak off on Saturday. He would have been free to do what he wanted during the day if I have class. I suggested that we do a day-long activity (to keep him with me all day, of course), but he would rather do something later in the day. I have a feeling that he will try to go out alone at some point during the day. I will be tempted to ask if I could come along, too, but I suppose I should just let him go without any issues.

I think I plan on getting a voice activated recorder for the room where he made his telephone call. I can't use a phone recorder, but at least with a VA recorder, I can get his side of the conversation.

I am also considering getting a GPS on record device to put underneath his car. I am squirreling away cash here and there to make these purchases without his suspicion. Part of me doesn't really want to know anything for sure until we get back from our trip to Cancun at the end of this month.

Here is an update on my situation.

First, I want to say that plan A has been working well. We just got back late Monday night from our trip to Cancun. We had a wonderful time. We had fun and he was very affectionate. I was at ease because I knew he was with ME the entire time.

Now comes the bad part.

My H switched to working nights as soon as we came back from our trip. (He says that he had no say in the change in his schedule) This has really upset me because now he is free everyday during the day to do what he pleases before he goes to sleep. He started this new shift on Tuesday night. I went to work Tuesday morning and I had the gut feeling that he was going to take his usual trip on our first day back. Sure enough, there were 48 miles on his car when I checked when I got home from work.

It gets worse.

I also had a bad feeling yesterday while I was at work. He went to the dentist in the morning. I checked his miles when I got home and everything was OK. HOWEVER, I looked in the garbage can in his bathroom and found two condom wrappers there. I just happened to count all of his condoms the day before. There were 11 total - all in tact. Now there are 9 in tact, and two wrappers in the trash can. They were not used with ME! There is no doubt in my mind about this - there is NO WAY I can be mistaken.

He apparently took advantage of the fact that I was at work, and our good friend neighbors were not at home yesterday (our neighbor is in the hospital). So I figure he felt safe to bring a guest to our house.

I know that he has been placed at ease with my plan A. I think he feels certain that I am no longer checking up on him. But still, isn't it awfully careless of him to just throw them in there?

Here is my question now - Is this enough evidence to confront him with? I feel that it is - I don't know how he can back out of this one. Also, how should I go about confronting him?

I would appreciate anyone's advice on this.

svb

[ December 03, 2004, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: lovemyhubby ]

LMH,

Thanks for your advice. I am dying to confront him about this and end it all.

I am afraid that he will just deny everything again. I have posted this question under general questions under the topic "found new evidence - should I confront" and the general consensus there is that I need more evidence. They say he will just deny everything again and go back into hiding. In my mind, I thought this was enough evidence. I am really confused about what to do. I think at this point I have him at a place where he is feeling comfortable and confident that I am not checking on him. Why else would he keep those wrappers in my house?

What do you think?

svb