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Had a horrible session with Jennifer last night. W really bowed up at her and is resisting her recommendations. She dropped the phone down away from her face several times and made several snide comments about what Jennifer was saying. Jennifer asked me what I would be willing to do for her sexually and Jennifer commented to W that she was a very lucky woman .W rolls her eyes in sarcasm. Jennifer suggested that she make love to me every day for the next two weeks, W blatantly refused like it was an outlandish request. Jennifer suggested W wear some sexy lingerie as an alternative to another act designed for arousal that she refused. W said that she refuses to wear the type of stuff that I would enjoy seeing her in. Most others suggestions W had negative responses to aas well. Jennifer ask W what kind a frequency the she could maintain. W said no more than every other night (which has been her limit her the past few months). Jenn suggested that we make love according to W’s preference (positions etc). I usually beg W for input about what she wants anyway and hardly ever get input at all, but so be it, I’ll do my best. After the call W said that if we are going to make love her way than she does not want our lovemaking to involve sex. That is her preference. She also said that starving people would appreciate crumbs giving to them by others and said that she should starve me in the area of SF for a while so that I would appreciate what crumbs that she is willing to give me. This strikes me as not just neglect but neglect with malice. She said that she knew that Jenn thought that she was scum. She said that Jenn attacked her and had a negative tone in her voice. This is what she says that I do. She said that Jenn needed prayer and the she would pray for her. Jenn asked me to check in with her daily and let her know what I planned to do each day about meeting her emotional needs and she would be there for support. Jenn is not sure at this point if W should be included in the next session. Even if I continue it will have a negative impact on her because she says that we can’t afford counseling and we are throwing money way. She said that Jenn is taking our money and we are getting nothing from it. Thanks for letting me vent. I want a mate whom I can share my every thought and feelings with, to share joy with, to share sorrows with and have a healthy thriving sex life. Why does it have to be this way. BTW, which way is up. PS, This negativity was not sparked by any LB’s or from me or failing to meet her EN’s. It was caused by Jennifer addressing problems in our marriage. ------------------ Scott

And what kind of mate does your wife want?Maybe one that thinks she is "good enough"? Maybe one that is not always pushing and never seems to be satisfied with any level of change she achieves? Maybe one that when she looks in his eyes she's tenderness and when she hear's his voice she hears warmths?Scott, you have some serious legitimate issues, and your wife does need to make some changes, but even your one sided description sounds to me like your wife feels backed into a corner. She might be reacting badly, but I would suggest she feels neglect and malice and is just defending herself by giving it back. Not wise, but really try to think of how she felt during counseling. If she feels like you just don't think she is "good enough" (and you don't) and Jenn told her she is one lucky lady, do you think she felt lucky? You know, the mate you described that you want, are you sure you are offering that kind of mate to your wife. Can she really share her thoughts and feelings without hearing that "tone"? Your intentions are good, I still question your premise and your approach. I find it odd that when she is having sex every other day that at this point in counseling she would be pressured to have more right away. What are you supposed to be doing to fill her EN or eliminating LB's. Seems like pressuring her for more and more and more sex at this point is a LB.But I do understand how emotionally drained you feel today, and I hope you heart will be recharged. I do admire how you keep going, and keep trying, especially given your wife's difficult personality. Your a good man.

Scott,I just wanted to let you know that I feel for you. When my wife and I were working with Steve, we had almost exactly the same conversation. As long as he was positive about her traits, she was fine. But as soon as we began suggesting changes for her, she blew up and said that she did not like him, he was judgmental, and this was a waste of money. The only advice I can offer you is what has partially worked with my wife. My wife does not take criticism. Notice that I did not say that she does not take it well, she does not take it. What has partially worked is that I just wait until I "catch" her doing something I like, and really praise her for it. When she is doing something I do not like, I merely ignore it. Since then, she has begun to make an active effort to improve her physical appearance and has made more efforts to be nice to me. I also told her that I had no desire to make love to a woman who did not want me. If she does not enthusiastically want me, I will not participate. I think that this would be the best response to your wife's "crumb" strategy. I also have found that when I refuse her "mercy f****", that it really gets her attention. I have also tried to tell her that the long intervals between lovemaking sessions make lovemaking more of a purely physical experience and there is much less emotion involved for me. Right now, I am almost at the point where I am going to tell her that once a week is not enough, and if that is the only frequency that she is willing to agree to, that I would prefer none. Scott, your wife is using emotional blackmail. She is telling you that you must be the one in the relationship who has to be uncomfortable, and there is no room for negotiation. This is not right or fair. There are many women on this forum and other places who would do anything to have a husband who wants to have a close, emotionally intimate relationship. From what you have said, you were your wife's first long-term relationship. This could mean that she does not know what it is really like to have a relationship with a real jerk. I do not know what the ultimate solution is, but I think that the only way to win this game is to stop playing. Right now, your wife is in complete control of your sex life. She is wielding this power like a weapon. This is not how God intended a marriage to be. The Bible says "Submit to God, and Resist the Devil, and he will flee from you." I think that your wife's constant refusal to address and resolve her sexual issues is submitting to the Devil and refusing to submit to God. I will keep you in my prayers, my friend.May the Lord Bless You and Keep You, John

I think Isit2late just gave you some valuable perspective, but Scott, I think you have to remember your wife has come a long way sexually.What she said last night was using sex as a weapon and was wrong.However, she has had a fairly long term improvement track record in the SF area. And from her POV (which isn't necessarly right, but it is hers) she may feel like she has tried and tried and yet again she is told it is not enough. I'm not saying sex every other day is OK or not in your marriage, or that you should be content with the quality, but isn't it a disrespectful judgement to just disregard the efforts she made?I think you would have a stronger SF needs case if she was unwilling to try, but she has and in many ways she has succeeded, but not in your eyes, unfortunately.And Scott, what if Jenn had said to you, your wife makes love to you every other day, you are a lucky man. Would you suddenly feel lucky?I am not out to pick on your counselor, which obviously has done great things with a great many marriages, but it seems to me, that last night, Jenn's general demeanor and some statements could be considered a disrespectful judgement.Even though I think your wife has a lot to address, and I feel for what you have been through in your marriage, I can't shake feeling sorry for your wife. Seeing the situation through her eyes, I think I would feel confused, unappreciated, beaten down and scared.Scott, she needs to feel safe.

Scott - Sorry for your pain right now. This isn't fair - but, life isn't fair.Game playing is the last place you want to go with your wife. People like her - PLAY to WIN - they don't play fair. And they don't play any games you want to play either.They write their own rules - and drive you crazy. I know - I'm in that phase with my H. He's still trying to manipulate me into investing in his illegal business - I'm not - and I'm not sharing any information. Game players are not fun people to know and they are lousy choices for mates - but it appears that many of us have them and seem to be STUCK with them.I didn't mean to VENT here - I actually was going to suggest that you find a way to establish some connection with your wife other than sex and not demand anything from her. Allow Jen to talk to her and work those demands out.Your wife sounds very much like my H right now - maybe we should ship them both out to sea in a raft with no oars. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

As a woman who has worked for 2 years to get enough sex form her husband I can tell you this: Working on the frequency of sex is the first step, then you can begin to work on the variety, etc. When our frequency got up to once a week, I felt I had a chance changing the sessions so there was some variety I liked. Since he said he liked everything but that is not really true, I had to guess at what he liked and quit asking him all the time. Sex every other day is really very often! I wish I got that much sex, I could really work with that to make our sex life better. But what worries me is that your wife's attitude seems so bad toward your needs. My husband at least does not ignore my needs blatently, just by accident. Nothing much will change as long as she has that attitude of not wanting to please you. Man, I feel for you as much as I have struggled for a better, more frequent sex life.

I honestly don't know why I keep arguing your wife's case when if I knew her, I probably wouldn't like her, and she would think I was an incompetent flake.However, I just sense your wife has been trying to please you, even though I know almost everyone else here disagrees. If she weren't trying to please you, she wouldn't have worked up to sex every other day, and with the variety you have introduced.Although admittedly she seems willing to play games, and that is never right, I think that willingness to resort to game playing is her frustration with trying and trying and being met with even more pressure, not a selfish attemept to not please you.Just as we all do not make the best rational choices at times of stress or pressure, I think your wife "lost it" last night, and before you just assume she intends to follow through with her threat and act accordingly, I think you really need to step back and really try to see things from her POV.And Scott, as a wife of an ISTJ man, do you know how many times I ask my H to repeat or rephrase something using a different tonal quality?o2besane's wife was also very sensitive to facial expression and tonal quality.I think she gave you some valuable infomation on how to make her feel loved.

Scott,I know you are a good man, but I have to echo FHL on this one. Your wife is feeling attacked. Every other day sounds like quite a bit compared to what you had just a few months ago. Start showing her a little appreciation for the progress she has made and stop acting like a SF drill sargeant.

Personally, I'm leaning towards the post by ISIT2LATE. Maybe my taker is out today, but the stonewalling gets very tiring. Maybe Scott's W. does feel that this is the only way she can protect herself because of her fears, but I think it is destructive overall and no one wins. It becomes a constant dance of pursuit/retreat. I'm all too familiar with this. The problem is, when you stop pursuing, your spouse may just love that distance (for whatever reason, including their fear/lack of desire for a deeper intimacy). I have always been pretty willing to fill my spouse's needs, so it is hard for me to accept that mine are just "too hard" or "foreign" to meet. I also no longer want to accept "mercy intimacy" and be "pathetically grateful" for time my H. is "willing" (or tolerating) to spend with me.Sorry, taker out in full force today!

Scott:I find this description of last night's session pretty interesting too. I'm wondering how Jenn brought up the ideas of pursuing sexual fulfillment---it seems to me that the appearance is that she was browbeating your wife, and I haven't seen that as her modus operandi as a counselor. I'm guessing that this was partly your wife's reaction to having these "radical" ideas suggested to her, as well as Jenn perhaps pushing too hard. Heck, the last session that I had with Jenn we discussed (among other things) ways that my wife could pick up her ability to meet my needs in other areas than SF---under the assumption that I would never have sex in the marriage again. Now that may not sound like a whole lot of fun, but I'm suggesting that you might want to take a similar approach---make sure your wife is getting feedback on all your other important needs. And continue to become an expert on meeting her needs.One comment that I noticed was this one: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>After the call W said that if we are going to make love her way than she does not want our lovemaking to involve sex. That is her preference.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Although I'm not EXACTLY sure what your wife means, I suggest that you meet her 100% of the way, for a predefined period of time. If she wants "lovemaking" to be her way, I'd say go for it, and make sure that it involves a frequency that she's comfortable with. See how this goes---I'd say for at least four weeks. Let your wife know that you're doing this for her, and that you want her to enjoy it.In other words, work on your giver, and put your taker away. It's pretty clear that you're not going to be able to browbeat your wife into meeting your needs (that rarely works)---so really focus on what her needs are, and do a terrific job at filling those. With a smile on your face, too. You're going to have to lead by example.

And what FHL said is exactly what I believe: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>However, I just sense your wife has been trying to please you, even though I know almost everyone else here disagrees. If she weren't trying to please you, she wouldn't have worked up to sex every other day, and with the variety you have introduced.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Although she's not enthusiastically on-board as you would like her to be, she's making considerable effort. I do think she "lost it", and I think you would be best served by going back, seeing things from her POV, and addressing HER issues, instead of unleashing that less-than-attractive taker of yours.

On the positive side, I got a call from D’s schoolteacher (who happens to be my W today) that her loose tooth was bothering her and she wouldn’t net the nurse pull it. I’m the tooth puller (the only one D trust) in our family, so I had to make an emergency tooth pulling run. D and tooth are now separated but doing fine. One the way home I plan to stop by a local sex store and get a few surprises, oops did I say that? I meant to say that I’m stopping the florist’s for flowers to bring home to my loving W. I also plan to help D get ready for bed, help with home work, help with dishes, participate in any positive conversation that W desires. W gets whatever SF she would like, or cuddling if she prefers. FHL You know, the mate you described that you want, are you sure you are offering that kind of mate to your wife. I honestly think that she has that kind of mate right under her fingertips. All she has to do is just embrace him. Can she really share her thoughts and feelings without hearing that "tone"? There are times when the frustration comes thur my voice, she ask that I learned how to express negative emotion. I turned the faucet on, I’m not so sure that she was prepared for all that she’s asked for. What are you supposed to be doing to fill her EN or eliminating LB's. Seems like pressuring her for more and more and more sex at this point is a LB. I had asked her to do a few things so I could have some hope. It was not I who suggested that we have sex every day, although I would have been elated to have been given this gift. John, Thanks for the reply. I see your point and agree with much of what was said. She is trying but she is unable to let herself go. And Scott, what if Jenn had said to you, your wife makes love to you every other day, you are a lucky man. Would you suddenly feel lucky? I think Jenn was trying to get this point across. she does not know what it is really like to have a relationship with a real jerk. Game playing is the last place you want to go with your wife. Well, actually I do have a few games in mind but it involves cards, spinners and props. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

They write their own rules - and drive you crazy[b/] And sometimes they make ‘em up as they go along. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

We still gotta love ‘em tho don’t we ? [b]But what worries me is that your wife's attitude seems so bad toward your needs. She gets huffy sometimes. She’ll sweeten up.My husband at least does not ignore my needs blatently, just by accident. My W has not blatantly ignored my needs in a while, she just threatens to. I hate it when she does this but at least she doesn’t stay withdrawn for weeks like she used to. Start showing her a little appreciation for the progress she has made and stop acting like a SF drill sargeant.[b/] Yes ma’am [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[b]Maybe my taker is out today, but the stonewalling gets very tiring. Creates a lot of frustration. ------------------ Scott

K I'm wondering how Jenn brought up the ideas of pursuing sexual fulfillment---Actually when I heard Jenn negotiating this I got so excited I forgot about what led up to this. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Seriously, I believe that my W was trying to convince Jenn that she could not enjoy sex unless the interval was more or less on her level. Jenn was trying to broaden her perspective here but I would have to do things her way and not ask for new stuff. Although I'm not EXACTLY sure what your wife means, She was having an angry outburst and this was her way of controlling me. She says a lots of things that she does not mean when she feels pushed. ------------------ Scott

Good Plan, Scott!!!!Between loads of laundry I was thinking about your situation and hoping that you two could agree that lastnights counseling session was paid torture...and despite your differences that you both have a goal for a happy marriage and family.Pulling your daughter's tooth was really sweet!Does your wife have a teaching degree? I do think you can grab unto the "appreciation" message and the tonal quality.Practise "I'm going to take the garbage out now, honey" with a pleasing voice. Even if my H is saying stuff that is not personal in nature, if I sense that "tone", I tense up. That's hardly fair, but it's true.Another example is my Pastor. I have a hard time feeling spiritually uplifted with his sermons. He prints them out for anyone that misses one. One week when I was sick, I read it. It surprised me how "good" it was, and I was sorry I missed one "good" one. Went back, same old sermons. Missed another, and that one was good, too. Hmmm.... Then I studied a number of them I heard, by reading them afterward with my daughter. They were all "good" when I read them, although I walked away with a completely different opinion previously after "hearing" them. I came to the conclusion it is his rather stern tonal quality, not unlike my H's, and his serious expression. I try to listen better by tuning out his tonal quality and it really helps. Of course on a personal level, that is not as easy with my H.Don't know if it is the same for your wife, but I would love if my H would seek out more eye contact. Not a stare down, but a loving look. And if he would walk up to me and touch my face or reach out for my hand, that would be wonderful. But he is more strickly business in his waking hours, except when he is pursuing recreation.I'm rambling, but now I can put in my next load of laundry feeling much better [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Does your wife have a teaching degree? Nope, she is a sub. She likes to hang out around D. ------------------ Scott

Your plan sounds pretty good Scott, but I sense a tone of dread. You want to make your marriage great, but the drudgery of what you have to do isgeting to you. And it's getting to your wife too, though her definition of drudgery is different. Nevertheless, you both are feeling it in some form.I have an idea to take the drudgery out. Does your wife like to dance? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I struggled with the idea of posting this letter. No one here has ever seen my W’s POV so I thought that it might add some perspective. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Dear Scott, I'm typing you this letter because I have been thinking of you a lot today and besides I could use the help with my typing. First, I want to say that I am sorry for any and all negative remarks that I may have made last night. I get very frustrated when I am spending money and I have nothing to show for it. I personal feel that Jennifer and I have not hit it off very well. I intend to pray for patients with her. I agreed to keep talking with her until school is out. I fully intend to keep my end of the deal. I will also try hard to not be judgemental. So If I am quite around you, please don't take it personnal. If I can't say something postive than I won’t say anything at all. I want you to know that I do love you very much and I want more than anything to be in love with you. I am not there yet, but working toward it. We both know what our problems are and I believe that we both are willing to try---- Please try to have patients with me when it comes to sex. I want you to have a good sex life. I really do want you to be happy. Sometimes you feel like a stranger to me and it is hard to make love to a stranger. I may not ever be able to do all the things on your sex list but if we put our minds together I believe that we could come up with some other things to add to your list that we both can enjoy. I am looking forward to our trip to New York. I only wish that I wasn't going to be on my period. If I'm having cramps, it's hard to enjoy sking or skating or other physical avtivities. I want us to hold hands and hug and kiss and talk and sit and If there is a night that I can touch you and make you feel good, I will do it for you. Scott I do love you, please don't ever forget that. I know latley that you and I both talk about ending our marriage ------ I know deep in my heart that neither of us really want that. It's just the hurt talking. Please continue to work on connecting our hearts -----keep praying------god gives his answer in his time work hard at having patients and I'll work hard at having a more open mind when it comes to sex. I'm not sure if any of this will make any sence. My typing and spelling needs a lot of work and D keeps needing things so I am stopping a lot and I am also trying to fix dinner. Also I keep looking over my shoulder to make sure that BIL hasn't come in. I just want you to know some of my thoughts. I look forward to making love to you tonight. D will need a spelling test before she goes to bed and I will need to lay out our clothes for school tomorrow. I teach Ms. Bowman's class. It would be nice if we could get D to bed on time and than go to our room and talk, make love and maybe watch the movie that you recorded while lying close together.Love always, *****<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>First, I want to say that I am sorry for any and all negative remarks that I may have made last night Often times W offers a blanket apology like “I’m so sorry for whatever it is that I’ve done, I’m sorry for being a bad person”. I’m not sure that she knows or accepts what issues that he is apologizing for and apologies made by sacrificing her self worth is a love buster to me. I don’t need to hear “I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry”. What is important to me is that she acknowledges how I feel ant that my feelings are legitimate. Her most hurtful comment was that she thought that I needed to be starved for a while so I would appreciate what crumbs that she was willing to give me. She also referred to my SF list as crazy and sick. I’m not sure if this is another sacrificial “band-aide” apology because she thinks it is what I want to hear, and she’s still thinking in the back of her mind “Well, had Jenn read his list I know she would think that it his ideas are perverted”. I personal feel that Jennifer and I have not hit it off very well. I intend to pray for patients with her Jenn mentioned something to me yesterday about setting ourselves up to fail. I don’t think that our marriage is set up to fail. I do think that W entered counseling with the intention of the counseling itself to fail. She also wants to avoid discussing matters when it comes to her considering new sexual ideas. She does not think that she is sexually inhibited or has sexual aversions. She has attempted to get Jenn to examine my SF list and side with her by telling me that my desires are perverted. She got angry when Jenn refused to be manipulated. Also, when a conflict avoidor first goes into counseling, is it common for him to go thru a cycle disliking the counselor at first and then later learn to open up and relax ? I want you to know that I do love you very much and I want more than anything to be in love with you I am not there yet, but working toward it. A quote from Jenn. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It is my job to get my W to fall in love with my by meeting her EN’s and avoiding LB’s, it is not my job to fall in love with her”. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The same should go for her. It sounds like she is working to fall in love with me. If we followed the plan together it would make it so much easier for me to do what I needed to do to make her fall in love with me and enjoy it in the process. I may not ever be able to do all the things on your sex list Looking at that phrase not ever is scary. I think of it as “not yet”. The problem is if I let it lie it would be a dead issue forever. I am not willing to give up most things on my list. I can exercise patience if I have real hope but “not ever” does not reassure me. ------------------ Scott[This message has been edited by Promised Forever (edited March 14, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I want you to have a good sex life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I forgot this. My idea of a good sex life is sharing it in a monogamous relationship. I never get the impression that this is what she wants too. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

------------------ Scott

"Sometimes you feel like a stranger to me and it is hard to make love to a stranger."Scott, do you know why she feels like this? If you knew why and could do something about it, would it make things better? Also, is your answer something that you 'perceive' or have you ever heard it from her?And finally, can we see your list? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Scot, Scott, ScottShe didn't issue a blanket apology. She apologied for her negative remarks made at a specific time. She made several. Should she have listed them out for you one by one?She also noted that she knows she reacted negatively to Jenn and wants to be more open-minded. She hits a wall of resistance in herself before she gets too far most times, but she IS trying.The in-love bit. I know where she is about feeling like a failure for not feeling in-love. She feels like it is her responsibility to get there. She recognizes that you are a good man and can't think of much that she would have you do that you don't do already, so if she's not in-love, she deduces that it must be her fault.About your sex list. C'mon, man. this is an area where give-and-take comes in. I think you will need to compromise on this one. She said she wants you to have a good sex-life because you are the one complaining about the sex life you have now. She spelled out for you exactly what she hoped for in your upcoming trip. To her that is a good sex-life and she hopes that you will think so, too. If not, she is willing to stretch herself some to accomodate you. But do not expect her to become a different person. The both of you will have to bend toward each other. If you stay still and she does all the bending, she will fall over.

Scott, so how did last evening go?It sounds like you took this letter kind of negatively, but I am not sure.It also seems you took it on surface only and did not seek out her heart or the big picture, but rather focused on SF issues, but maybe I am off base.It strikes me as an earnest, very sweet letter that would melt your heart, but it doesn't seem to have had that effect at all...or did it?More later...

Man, Scott. Read your email, dude.

Ava, She has said that I talk at her not to her. She wants me to be able to share my thoughts and feelings as they happen and not at like Mr Spock. Over the last few weeks I’ve have shared most ever thought with her. Often times it’s not polished (it just cmes out very bluntly). I never could share many of my thoughts because she was so judgmental and could not deal with the content. She has seen a major change lately and is having to learn to deal with some of my ideas. SF Attachment1. I like deep wet French kisses 2. Would like giving you oral sex to be a common event 3. Would love for you to be able give oral sex. Going all the way to a climax being the goal. 4. Would like to cross over from affection and continue to build on anticipation more. Whispering sexy and sometimes dirty things in my ear. A flash of your breasts as a tease or a flash of you bare crotch while watching TV. A good view of you wearing a thong. I would love it if we to out to the movies and you came back from the restroom and discretely handed me you panties and whispered all the naughty things that you were going to do to me later. 5. I love expressive sex. Talking, describing how your feel, asking for what you want and what feels good. Show pleasure in giving me pleasure. I would like to be able to use expressive words like fuc*k, fuc*ing, sucking your pu$$y during more lustful love making sessions. 6. I would like for us to explore. Try new things. I would like to try anal sex. I would like for you to masturbate in front of me and offer me to taste your fingers. I would like to include a vibrator and other “toys” in some of our lovemaking. I would like to be able to drip honey on your body and lick if off or with whipped cream and strawberries. And later take a bath with you. I would like to try some sex games and sex books that have scheduled activities. It would be a great surprise to come home and you surprise me with a shaven crotch. 7. Would love to make love on the porch swing sometimes. Would love making love in well-hidden public places. Going parking and making out, sometimes going all the way. 8. Would like to develop the ability to enjoy role play sex and share and act out fantasizes and know and trust that even tho we may be pretending that we are making love to each other. 9. I would like for you to read Mar and Venus in the Bedroom. Practice some of their techniques, understand the different levels of love making like quickies and gourmet sex, loving sex, and ****ing. 10. Wear lingerie to bed more often, in particular moderate stuff like what I gave you for your anniversary and on occasion some really hot stuff like fishnet stockings and crotchless panties, and black sheer see thru gowns and teddies. 11. Would love to caress, taste, touch, and suck your breasts more. 12. Would like to be able to more intimate while you are on your period. Hand jobs are nice but you seem not to have the energy and stamina in your arm without it causing you discomfort and that takes away much of the pleasure. Maybe trying “toys” for male stimulation, maybe giving me oral sex, maybe occasionally intercourse. 13. Would like to take baths in our Jacuzzi more often, like one per week. 14. Would like to make love away from the presence of a baby monitor 15. Would like not to have to worry about making a wet spot on the sheet or blanket underneath us. 16. 3 minute intercourse ending in a climax is okay on occasions. There are times when I have trouble holding back and I don’t want to leave you unsatisfied. It seems like a for the last few months that you want intercourse over with within 3-5 five minutes. I prefer the average to last 15-30 minutes. You seem to lose all interest in sex just after you have an orgasm. The highlights for me is to have lengthy intercourse and have a uninhabited climax and also being able to share and feel excitement when you have a orgasm. Lately I enjoy the giving part “bringing you to an orgasm” and I’m left felt empty and rushed when it comes to receiving pleasure. Your words to me “You like to drag it out”. Passionate Marriage has a chapter called Fuc*ing Doing and being Done. I would love to be able read that together and practice being in sync with each other. 17. During showers I would like to be more passionate at times 1-2 per week as an added bonus and have quickie sex or manual or oral stimulation leading to a climax. My idea of quickie sex is described very well in M/V in The Bedroom. 18. Enthusiasm is most important with all of the above. ------------------ Scott

Scott, that's a good list. That's a great list. You're not a pervert, not in my book.

And until she can check off and be enthusiastic about all the above items, she is not quite "good enough"?Her letter sounds like she needs to feel close to you to feel sexually open, and your list sounds like you need her to be your sex kitten before you can really love her.See a problem?

FHL, I didn’t take her letter as being negative. She is trying to reach out. We have been thru several cycles this year to where she has said similar things and then we end right back to square one. To an ISJT the proof is in the pudding. Last night was a nice as it could have been under the circumstances. My brother has been living with us for the last month and is going thru a nasty divorce. His kids were with us last night at it casues W a lot of stress. Acutlly I fell asleep waiting on W to get D to sleep but awoke as soon as she came into our bedroom. We did have a nice caring SF encounter, and it was too late for a movie. We did talk before hand tho. ------------------ Scott

Well could maybe half the reason you end up to square one is YOU?I don't think you heard much of what she said in that letter, or considered the letter in the context of what her needs might be.I have often told my H that he has the "total inability to read between the lines"And he has told me, that he likes that about himself [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

You ISTJ's...I'm working on a few ideas that I think she is trying to say. More later...By the way, I don't think your list is perverted, but if you put the energy you spent on coming up with this list, on figuring out how to make your wife feel safe in your marriage, you would be a lot further along in actually meeting your goal. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

That's quite a list Scott. Look at how big it is! Can you see how she might be overwhelmed by it before even reading the first item?I think you need to prioritize that list and break it up into smaller sections that she might be able to - forgive the pun - swallow. Also, have her list them in an order that she would most likely be able to meet them. Where you have an intersection between your priorites and her willingness to meet them, you have a starting point.It does sound like some of those things are just not in your wife's characater and she may be wondering why you are with her at all. I can see her thinking, "If that is what you want why don't you hire a hooker and then you can tell her exactly what you want done and she'll do it. If you want me to be like that, then maybe you don't really love me. Maybe you won't love me unless I can be like that and if that's the case, let's just give up now."I also think the comment about you being a stranger has several aspects to it. One, she probably doesn't get let in on your thought processes or hear much of your feelings other than complaints about sex. Two, some of the demands you are making about sex (hey, isn't that a LB?) are things she never knoew you wanted before. She is seeing things in you that don't fit the image of you she had in her head. (Probably because you never shared it with her before). That makes you seem like a stranger to her. give her time to get to know the real Scott before expecting her to jump into bed with him and pleasure him 18 ways.

Scott,I must say I found her letter very sincere. She did apologize for her negative remarks of the night before. She may say these things because she is hurt and feeling backed into a corner. So she has to make the first strike so that she can protect herself. Afterwards I am sure she feels awful about it.Your list is pretty awesome. God knows I'd would love to think my h wants those things. Not w/me though.As someone else suggested can you make a list of things that would fill her love bank?I see a lot of love in her letter, especially mentioning the fact that she cannot wait to vacation w/you. Looking forward to those little romantic moments. Trying to please you.IF she constantly feels she is always going to fail you in this area, then she will give up Scott. It will come to a point where she says "forget it", I've tried MY best and my best is never enough. Do you want her for who she is or for what you wish her to be?I know what it feels like for someone to wish you were someone or something else. Not easy, Scott. You are constantly put under a microscope. If you are not enthusiatic enough or whatever, it comes back to haunt you and then after a while you really don't want to be with this person.You both have to work at pleasing one another. One cannot always want more than the other can give. Has to comfortable for both of you....LH

if you put the energy you spent on coming up with this list, on figuring out how to make your wife feel safe in your marriage, you would be a lot further along in actually meeting your goalShe made this comment almost word for word several times lately. "If that is what you want why don't you hire a hooker and then you can tell her exactly what you want done and she'll do it. If you want me to be like that, then maybe you don't really love me. Maybe you won't love me unless I can be like that and if that's the case, let's just give up now." Bingo Ts, If i didn’t know better I’d a sore that you just got off the phone with her. She says that I need 20 hookers tho, That way I could have a new face most every night. This statement comes out during many of her LBing fits. TS, I know that you are limited in some of your Harley beliefs. It is important not to sacrifice what is really important to you. It builds resentment and I’ve experiences this over the last years while trying to bend. There are a fews things on my list that I could flex on, not much tho without sacrificing and resenting her over. She does think that most of these acts are only done by hookers and sluts and goes it against her nature. Jenn is preaching to me that she needs to be in love with me before she will be willing to grow. I need some realistic hope that we can get to where I want us to be. I did in fact listed five things for her to do/share with me to help me with that hope. She can’t do it. She needs to be inlove with before she will progress, I need hope before I can continue enthusiastically. I’m not saying that all 18 things have to be met tomorrow. And I hope to grow and share and do things way beyond what I’ve listed here in the upcoming years. If what I want is truly against her nature where do we go from here. ------------------ Scott

I don't think your wife and I have the same personality, but I have been told I am usually pretty good at honing in on what others may mean, based on what they say. I could be way off, but I offer you my opinions to mull over.First of all, it strikes me that your wife asks for your patience over and over. That could just mean that she realizes she does not make changes quickly, but I would think it may be more accurate that she feels you are not BEING patient with her, or at least she doesn't feel it. Are you being patient? If you think you are, then maybe you should explore why she doesn't feel it. My first guess would be the facial expression and tonal quality as well as your general demeanor. Of course as an ISTJ looking at "checkpoints" for proof, she might have the feeling you are watching her with an imaginary clipboard and making notes. Could you be? Do you do your best work with your boss standing over you with a clip board?OK...she basically said she was sorry and told you she made her remarks out of frustration, and even through in she is looking for results. Maybe you keep getting back to square on after what you called "blanket apologies" because you don't accept them. You hold on to them, feel hurt by them and act as if she truly meant every word. Although it is true, sometimes what people do say in rage is true, if she said she said it because she was frustrated and is sorry she said it, then try to let it go. It could make a big difference. The old wife comes out, maybe like something in Alien when she is pushed. Maybe it is proof a new wife is really emerging when she can see old wife as being inappropriate, putting her away and apologizing for her actions. Are you with me on that concept? And it doesn't sound like she and Jenn have hit it off, but it does seem like your wife is still open and is trying to connect better with her. You know Jenn is a human, too, so maybe this half her. As a professional, I would guess that she will be able to find a style of communication that takes care of this problem. Given your wife's personality, I'd give her a big ole A for effort here.She obviously knows she is judgemental and she is working on this within herself. This is a GOOD thing. Personally I don't think she is the only judgemental one in your marriage [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

do you?Then she asks you not to take her quietness as personal. Do you? Anyway, if sounds like she wants to be more reflextive than reactive. She is honest on where she is at in her feelings and where she wants to be. The idea that she is working on this should be applauded rather than shot down. Maybe she is working on being more open and less judgemental. That would in fact make it easier for you to deposit the units that will bring about those feelings. Yes?Sure sounds like she is trying in the SF department and is asking you to make her feel safe. Don't let this fall on deaf ears. Your wife is telling you what she needs. It may not fall into specific MB catagories, but she seems to need to FEEL love to show love sexually. You might think she SHOULD be able to, but there seems to be a gap that you have a wonderful opportunity to fill. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

(That was Freudian, wasn't it?)Sometimes you feel like a stranger...what a sad thing for your wife to have to feel...And if all you got over what your wife poured her heart out about sex was two words, "not ever", you missed the entire point. And that sentence sounds like your wife trying to POJA and you clutching your list without compromise. Maybe I am wrong.In her closing sentences it is obvious that she needs to have everything in order first before she can relax. Instead of seeing this as proof that you are not her priority, use it as an opportunity to help her, which I bet deposits love units, so you do have the time together. My H only wishes I had this work before play attitude [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

OK, don't know in what context you have been talking the big D word, but it is terrifying her and blocking what you are trying to accomplish. As a Christian, Scott, how can you consider this? And how on earth would it be beneficial for your daughter? Sure doesn't sound like you are considering that your marriage is blessed or that your wife is your gift from God, does it?Any of this change your view point at all?

Scott, you have your wife in a corner.Why are you trying to force her to meet your needs in such a way? You have mistaken your needs as sexual only when in fact they are spiritual in nature.You are being selfish. I speak from experience. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

DB, you too have mail

Hey dogbert! I agree with you! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TruthSeeker: Hey dogbert! I agree with you! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>WOW!

I agree this sounds strange. For one thing, I have never sensed any love in Scott's posts. And I have never sensed thqt he has ANY EN under the sun besides SF. He is doing a very typical efficient ISTJ attack on "the problem" and isn't getting the concrete, defined, explicit results HE is bargaining for.Scott, are you human in her eyes? Or just a goal-oriented machine? What values drive your life? Are you more than an SF pursuit machine to your wife?She is pretty clearly Child-oriented. That isn't healthy either. Living through ones kids tends to hurt the kids. But it really wouldn't be better if she were husband-oriented. We all need to continue the process of differentiation. What does her long wishlist of the ideal marriage partner look like? And what are your deficiencies?

Scott, Since I am married to a woman who is pretty much a clone of your wife, I hope you will listen to me (Incidentally, I am an INFJ). If my wife had written me a letter like this after one of our sessions with Steve, I would be jumping for joy.I suggest that you immediately draft a letter to your wife using this form. You do not need to follow it exactly, but do not change it too much or I will have Kathi come after you with a frying pan...Dear Wonderful, Beautiful Love of My Life,Thank you so much for your letter. I was discouraged by the counseling session, but I am so encouraged by your response. After reflecting on my list, I realized that to you, it was pretty overwhelming. I guess my personality is just such that I want clearly defined goals to work towards so that I can measure my progress. I obviously forgot that you do not approach issues like this. I should be thankful that God has provided me with a loving wife who complements me, instead of being exactly like me. Please forgive me for even implying that I ever wanted to end our marriage. I love you more than any person on this earth, and regardless of whether you are never are able to do anything on this list, I will keep on loving you. You are a precious gift from God that I will always treasure. I guess my hurt just gets in the way, and I say things that I should not. I know that the last counseling session was difficult for you, and I am so thankful that you have agreed to continue. There are many women who would not continue after a session like that. I greatly admire your courage.I guess I need to make it clear that my list was just the optimal situation, not my minimum demands. These are just things that would give me great pleasure, not things that I absolutely must have. I guess when I set my mind on a goal, I just lose sight of how far we have come. And you have come so far, my love, that I can hardly believe it. I know that you and I were together sexually before we were married, and I am truly sorry for that. We both violated the beliefs that we espouse. I think that may be part of the problem, so I would like to ask your forgiveness for that. I was immature and selfish. It was mostly my fault. Anyway, thank you for saying that you would like to make love to me tonight, but I really see that I have hurt you. I could not bear for you to make love to me when I know that I caused you so much grief. Let's just plan for another night. The Policy of Joint Agreement dictates that unless we can enthusiastically agree to make love, we should wait. I would much prefer to wait until you truly have a desire for me and want to please me than to just make love because we planned to. I have also made other foolish comments about hookers. There is not a woman in the world who could ever compare to you, and I could never imagine myself loving anyone but you.Your Repentant Husband, Scott--Just send her this letter, and see what her response is.May the Lord Bless You and Keep You, John

John that letter would be wonderful. I can only imagine how much it would mean to Scott's wife. It could make all the difference in the world.However, if you have read Scott's posts, sadly I don't see where he could write that letter, because it wouldn't be the truth.I hope I am wrong.I also think a great deal of your problem is spiritual. As a Christian, if you are spiritually centered, usually the rest of your life follows suit, at least in areas you have influence.In your quest for SF (which is good), I think you might have put your personal need for SF above all else.For you to imply that you would resent your wife if she did not attain (even in time) 18 of 18 items on your list, and you would consider leaving your marriage and your daughter if your personal needs were not filled to your satisfaction (talking divorce), I can't believe that currently you are were you need to be spiritually.Please consider praying for your heart to be softened. [This message has been edited by FaithHopeLove (edited March 14, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by FaithHopeLove: I also think a great deal of your problem is spiritual. As a Christian, if you are spiritually centered, usually the rest of your life follows suit, at least in areas you have influence.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hey I wanted to say that. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by FaithHopeLove: For you to imply that you would resent your wife if she did not attain (even in time) 18 of 18 items on your list, and you would consider leaving your marriage and your daughter if your personal needs were not filled to your satisfaction (talking divorce), I can't believe that currently you are were you need to be spiritually. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>FHL, would you say the same thing if the demands were less? Is it that you think the needs are too excessive? What about if one spouse simply wanted SOME sexual fulfillment (and was open to the methods) with lets say a frequency of once a week (or even once a month), and the other spouse (the husband) was perfectly happy being celibate? Would you say that if the wife could not tolerate a celibate marriage that she would not be where she needs to be spiritually? I'm not angry, (well I am but not at you [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

), just curious about how you would respond to that question?

Ava, Good Question.Keep in mind I have followed Scott's story for a while, so sometimes I respond to its entirety and it sounds like I am over board to just one post, maybe.No, it is not his list (although it is quite a list [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

), it is the all or nothing mentality behind the list.For example...if he is saying. If I can not hope for anal sex with my wife in my lifetime, then I will resent her and will consider leaving my marriage and my daughter.Sounds a little radical. I think he is losing perspective. Having needs met is great, but in context of the big picture.Again I hope I am wrong [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

What is Scott's type again? He sounds like an ISTJ. Makes a list. Measures objectively. Concerned with details and loses track of the big picture.Scott, have you tried meditating? Seriously, you are heading down the same slippery slope Mike C2 was on a few months back. he found his footing again and he seems to be doing better. I hope you can step back from this SF thing long enough to get reacquainted with the big picture and what your overall goals and not focus so intensely on one area.Your wife's letter sounded quite touching. Let me highlight some things she said that it appears you didn't see: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Dear Scott, I'm typing you this letter because I have been thinking of you a lot today and besides I could use the help with my typing. First, I want to say that I am sorry for any and all negative remarks that I may have made last night. I get very frustrated when I am spending money and I have nothing to show for it. I personal feel that Jennifer and I have not hit it off very well. I intend to pray for patients with her. I agreed to keep talking with her until school is out. I fully intend to keep my end of the deal. I will also try hard to not be judgemental. So If I am quite around you, please don't take it personnal. If I can't say something postive than I won’t say anything at all. I want you to know that I do love you very much and I want more than anything to be in love with you. I am not there yet, but working toward it. We both know what our problems are and I believe that we both are willing to try---- Please try to have patients with me when it comes to sex. I want you to have a good sex life. I really do want you to be happy. Sometimes you feel like a stranger to me and it is hard to make love to a stranger. I may not ever be able to do all the things on your sex list but if we put our minds together I believe that we could come up with some other things to add to your list that we both can enjoy. I am looking forward to our trip to New York. I only wish that I wasn't going to be on my period. If I'm having cramps, it's hard to enjoy sking or skating or other physical avtivities. I want us to hold hands and hug and kiss and talk and sit and If there is a night that I can touch you and make you feel good, I will do it for you. Scott I do love you, please don't ever forget that. I know latley that you and I both talk about ending our marriage ------ I know deep in my heart that neither of us really want that. It's just the hurt talking. Please continue to work on connecting our hearts -----keep praying------god gives his answer in his time work hard at having patients and I'll work hard at having a more open mind when it comes to sex. I'm not sure if any of this will make any sence. My typing and spelling needs a lot of work and D keeps needing things so I am stopping a lot and I am also trying to fix dinner. Also I keep looking over my shoulder to make sure that BIL hasn't come in. I just want you to know some of my thoughts. I look forward to making love to you tonight. D will need a spelling test before she goes to bed and I will need to lay out our clothes for school tomorrow. I teach Ms. Bowman's class. It would be nice if we could get D to bed on time and than go to our room and talk, make love and maybe watch the movie that you recorded while lying close together. Love always, ***** <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Scott, pay special attention to those spots that I marked in bold. You looked right past those and focused on the ones that triggered your hurt. Look past your own hurt and see hers. It's right there beside yours.

*[This message has been edited by Doug (edited March 15, 2001).]

First off I never said to my W that I wanted a divorce if she never met all 18 things. When she resisted counseling I said that I felt that Jenn was our last hope. Jenn asked us to do the EN questionnaire and write a list and be specific about what would really touch you. She gave us strict instructions when sharing this list not to saying anything other than asking questions for clarification like how often. My W ripped my heart out with her reactions. I did not react in a negative way but god was I ever hurt. Jenn asked me to call her the next day, which I did. Jenn said that W may not continue with counseling. I told Jenn that I had thoughts of leaving her I she did this. Leaving means plan B not divorce. Jenn reminded me about Plan A/plan B. A that separation was only recommend during sever neglect and abuse cases. She asked me to have thick skin for three months and do the best plan A (Meetings needs and no LB’s) I agreed to try. I don’t know if Jenn would recommend plan B if after 3 months things were not better, I did not ask her and did not care to go there. Keep in mind we are talking about a situation when W refuses to be involved in counseling and continues her major LB’s.W is under the impression also that I said that if she does not do all of what is on my list that our marriage is over. She said this to me a few min ago and she also said this to Jenn today. I have some clarification to do. Second, since when was filling out your EN’s a demand and cornering your spouse? I never said I would leave her if she did not perform all of these things. ------------------ Scott

OK, Scott, I misinterpretted and I apologize. It said in the letter that you talked about D and then in your response to TS you said you would resent your wife if she did not do everything on the list. Was your whole list for your marriage SF?But it is true you would consider leaving your marriage, right?Thought any more about the several comments several of us made about your wife's letter?

Scott,I really suggest that you write a letter to your wife similar to what I have suggested. I know that right now, you do not feel like doing it, but if you get started, the feelings will come. After you have prepared it, talk to Jennifer about it and get her input. Right now, your wife may be feeling very rejected by you. You have to assure her that she is the most wonderful woman in the world to you, and then she will be in a position to respond to your needs. I wish things were different, but that is how they are. Remember, just as it is your wife's job to make you fall in love with her, it is your job to make her fall in love with you. She cannot take as much criticism at one time as you can. You gave her 18 ways to change all at once, and she assumed that you meant that she had disappointed you in all those ways. Scott, like it or not, you lovebusted. It is time to make some major deposits. I assure you with 90% accuracy that if you give your wife a letter similar to the one I suggested, you will receive dividends you will thank God for.

Scott - As a fellow ISTJ let me ask you a logical question:If you wife came on to this board asking advice and venting about YOU, and a dozen people replied to her in your defense and advised her to go knock your socks off in bed, do something really daring, and she dismissed it and refused to do so...How is that REALLY any different from you refusing to give your wife that letter that we really believe she needs to hear from you?You are denying her something she needs from you because you don't FEEL like it. I think that is kind of like her denying you SF because she doesn't FEEL like it. It's not right.You need to give your wife that letter because of HER NEEDS. Just like she needs to broaden her SF horizons (which, to be fair, she IS doing) because of YOUR NEEDS.

I’m short on time right now. I will respond to John’s suggestions about the letter tomorrow. John is much more passive than I, and as FHL I can’t honestly say all of those things. I don’t think that she would want to hear all of them either. We went over this list a month ago, and she is not in shock like she was at first. Her Love Bank inventory is higher now than it’s been in a long time. ------------------ Scott[This message has been edited by Promised Forever (edited March 14, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by IsIt2late (edited March 14, 2001).][This message has been edited by IsIt2late (edited March 14, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by IsIt2late: Scott,I apologize for offending you, I was only trying to help. But just as you have said that you are not as blunt as you appear here, it is very possible that I am not nearly as passive as you have characterized me. I can certainly attest to the fact that I am not as selfish and demanding as you. Perhaps you should examine yourself and try to see what it is to be married to someone like you.May the Lord Bless You and Keep You, John[This message has been edited by IsIt2late (edited March 14, 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

((((((((Scott)))))))))I'm sorry you feel attacked.But if so many of us inferred the same things from what you wrote, do you think it's possible that something in your demeanor, however unintentional, may have caused your wife to infer the same thing?You don't need to prove to us that you didn't mean what we thought you meant. But you do need to show that to your wife. Did you re-read the parts of her letret that I highlighted? Do you see the love in those words? She's not withholding to bemean to you. Yeah, the crumb comment was hurtful, but she did that in defense. She felt backed into a corner (whether you put her in one or not, that is how she FELT), so she lashed out.It is clear to me that both of you are feeling rejected right now. She feels rejected because she's afraid that if she can't do all the things on your list, you will leave her. Or at least resent her which will hurt just as much. And you feel rejected because you think she just doesn't want to please you, when in actuality she wants very much to please you. It will be a big stretch for her to do it, though. But she is willing to try and she said that she believe that you are, too. But she needs to take it at a speed that won't frighten her back into herself.Which is why I recommended breaking the list up. Pick the most important one to you that seh feels she is most likely to be able to meet. Once you get past that step and you are sure that she has reached a level of comfort, let her stay at that level for a while. Don't push too hard too soon. Once she has had some time achieving a level of comfort with this new activity, ask her if she's ready to try another one. Let her pick which one. Again, let her reach a level of comfort and stay at that level for a while, until she's ready to try another. Also, FHL had a good point. Is the SF list the only thing you wrote about what you wanted out of your marriage? Or is it just a part of the list, the part you're focusing on? It might be a good idea to put some balance in there. Pick one thing from each area and work on the non-SF ones first. Or POJA with her which ones to work on first.You'll get through this Scott. But your taker needs to be reigned in a little.

John, Brother- you have not offended me in the least. I do appreciate your input and the time that you have spent on my behalf. I can certainly attest to the fact that I am not as selfish and demanding as you This is probably true. We only see glimpses of each other thru BB’s so it is very difficult to get a true assessment of someone this way. I suppose that my taker does runamuck here and there. Deep long trem resentment is very difficult to get past. I do have a giver that is every bit as much or more eager to give than my taker is to receive. For the last year I’ve had a problem balancing the two. I’ve been trying to tie up and gag my taker and stow him in the closest for the last few weeks but he has a nack for slipping out. I was only trying to help And you have, JohnDear Wonderful, Beautiful Love of My Life Now I’m getting excited. YEs, this is trueAfter reflecting on my list, I realized that to you, it was pretty overwhelming. I guess my personality is just such that I want clearly defined goals to work towards so that I can measure my progress. I obviously forgot that you do not approach issues like this. I should be thankful that God has provided me with a loving wife who complements me, instead of being exactly like me. I agree that my list was overwhelming to her. We were sharing all of our EN’s under the direction of a counselor. In all honesty I didn’t forget that she was not goal oriented, I was sharing my needs and thoughts with her using MB’s format. I sat in a divorce court a few weeks ago and heard all kinds of dirty laundry. This helped me to realize that I do appreciate many things about my wife. I still have long term baked on crusty resentment over EN’s not being met and LB’s. I can’t honestly say that I am thankful for the whole package.Please forgive me for even implying that I ever wanted to end our marriage. I clarified with her that I didn’t plan to leave if she didn’t perform 18 out of 18. I shared my feelings with her and I’m not sorry for being honest. Yes, she does need to feel safe. If she refuses to meet my EN’s and continues with brutal LB’s then she is not safe our marriage is not safe and I would be lying if I told her otherwise. I guess my hurt just gets in the way, and I say things that I should not. Resentment would be a better choice of words. Might should add penis in here too.I know that the last counseling session was difficult for you, and I am so thankful that you have agreed to continue. There are many women who would not continue after a session like that. I greatly admire your courage. Done dealI know that you and I were together sexually before we were married, and I am truly sorry for that. We both violated the beliefs that we espouse. I think that may be part of the problem, so I would like to ask your forgiveness for that. I was immature and selfish. It was mostly my fault. This is not how I feel. I don’t regret premarital sex. I was not pursuing a quick lay, I was in love with her.Anyway, thank you for saying that you would like to make love to me tonight, but I really see that I have hurt you. I could not bear for you to make love to me when I know that I caused you so much grief. Let's just plan for another night. The Policy of Joint Agreement dictates that unless we can enthusiastically agree to make love, we should wait. I would much prefer to wait until you truly have a desire for me and want to please me than to just make love because we planned to. To turn down her gifts is a LB for her. She was not offering mercy sex here. I have also made other foolish comments about hookers She’s the one who brings up hookers. I only speak of her. There is not a woman in the world who could ever compare to you, and I could never imagine myself loving anyone but you. I wish that I felt this way. I shared with her what she could do to help me feel this way. This feeling comes with romantic love. My heart is in withdrawal and my mind is in conflict. ------------------ Scott[This message has been edited by Promised Forever (edited March 15, 2001).]

Scott, I give you tons of credit for sticking with this!And since your heart is in withdrawl and your head is in conflict, can you see that it would be appropriate to make sure you are spiritually centered right now? Obviously faith has been a big part of your whole life, and it sounds like it is still very important to your wife.If you could imagine yourself sitting down and talking with Jesus about your situation, what do you think he would advise? What questions would you have for him?

Scott, Thank you for the comment. If you can put your Taker on hold for a few minutes. I would like to respond to your comments. Deep long trem resentment is very difficult to get past. No one understands this better than me.I do have a giver that is every bit as much or more eager to give than my taker is to receive. For the last year I’ve had a problem balancing the two. I’ve been trying to tie up and gag my taker and stow him in the closest for the last few weeks but he has a nack for slipping out. Perhaps you should realize that your taker has the capability to sabotage your giver's efforts.Dear Wonderful, Beautiful Love of My Life Now I’m getting excited. YEs, this is trueI agree that my list was overwhelming to her. --I would say that this is probably an understatement.We were sharing all of our EN’s under the direction of a counselor. In all honesty I didn’t forget that she was not goal oriented, I was sharing my needs and thoughts with her using MB’s format. --Yes, you were using MB format. Unfortunately, it is not lovebuster proof. You now know that because of your wife's approach to marriage and relationships, this format is a lovebuster. What are you going to do with this information? I think that she would respond to the 10/1 ratio of positive to negative comments. I sat in a divorce court a few weeks ago and heard all kinds of dirty laundry. --Scott, you have only scratched the surface. I could tell you stories that would make you tremble. This helped me to realize that I do appreciate many things about my wife. --These are the very things you need to focus on and thank her for often and enthusiastically.I still have long term baked on crusty resentment over EN’s not being met and LB’s. --As do I. But we both need to realize that unless a woman feels safe, loved and admired, she will be unable to meet needs and will occasionally succumb to LB's.I can’t honestly say that I am thankful for the whole package. --Neither am I. However, God gave you this woman, and he expects you to take care of her just as Jesus takes care of the Church.Please forgive me for even implying that I ever wanted to end our marriage. I clarified with her that I didn’t plan to leave if she didn’t perform 18 out of 18. I shared my feelings with her and I’m not sorry for being honest. Yes, she does need to feel safe. If she refuses to meet my EN’s and continues with brutal LB’s then she is not safe our marriage is not safe and I would be lying if I told her otherwise. --Scott, there is such a thing as "speaking the truth in love." You have been honest, brutally honest. You then complain because your wife has lovebusted. The last sentence is a clear threat. I don't know if you said exactly those words, but if they were in your mind while you spoke to your wife, the message was clear. I guess my hurt just gets in the way, and I say things that I should not. Resentment would be a better choice of words. Might should add penis in here too. --Resentment is always a secondary emotion, subsequent to hurt. Why not talk about the hurt before it becomes resentment?I know that the last counseling session was difficult for you, and I am so thankful that you have agreed to continue. There are many women who would not continue after a session like that. I greatly admire your courage. Done deal --Good!!I know that you and I were together sexually before we were married, and I am truly sorry for that. We both violated the beliefs that we espouse. I think that may be part of the problem, so I would like to ask your forgiveness for that. I was immature and selfish. It was mostly my fault. This is not how I feel. I don’t regret premarital sex. I was not pursuing a quick lay, I was in love with her. --You are not sorry for engaging in premarital sex. Many people are not. I often struggle with the wish that my wife and I had had intercourse because she had a much higher sex drive then. But it would still not have been right. But the real question is whether your wife is sorry. She may very well have some very real unresolved guilt over what she done and you are a daily reminder. If she does, this could explain a lot of why she has such a problem with sex. Anyway, thank you for saying that you would like to make love to me tonight, but I really see that I have hurt you. I could not bear for you to make love to me when I know that I caused you so much grief. Let's just plan for another night. The Policy of Joint Agreement dictates that unless we can enthusiastically agree to make love, we should wait. I would much prefer to wait until you truly have a desire for me and want to please me than to just make love because we planned to. To turn down her gifts is a LB for her. She was not offering mercy sex here. --Scott, what I am suggesting is not to turn down her gift. I am suggesting that you tell her that you want a deeper emotional connection than just sex. Tell her that although your body is screaming for this, your heart wants a true connection with her. I have also made other foolish comments about hookers She’s the one who brings up hookers. I only speak of her. --Then you need to apologize for your behavior which led her to think that a hooker could ever satisfy you the way that she can. There is not a woman in the world who could ever compare to you, and I could never imagine myself loving anyone but you. I wish that I felt this way. I shared with her what she could do to help me feel this way. This feeling comes with romantic love. My heart is in withdrawal and my mind is in conflict. --Scott, doing things that we do not feel is how we get to the places that we want to go. If you do not feel this way now, you can at least express to her that this is the way that you want to feel, and that you will do everything in your power to get there.[/B][/QUOTE]Lastly, the letter written by your wife was not written by a woman who will never meet your needs. It was written by a woman who wants a relationship with you. This woman has stretched her boundaries farther than she ever thought she could. It was a little over a year ago that she only made love to you twice a month, and now she is making love to you every other day. Remember when you bought her the nightgown which you knew would be her choice, instead of yours? What was the result? Stop talking about your needs for a while, and just focus on how you can treat her just as Christ treated the Church. I do want to caution you. If you have not already, read the posts by "Reality" in the Pregnancy/Child boards. I read them, and I really took a hard look at myself.May the Lord Bless You and Keep You, John

Scott,I was playing around on the link Dogbert gave us to crosswalk, actually thinking about Truthseekers thread and about my quest to join my artwork with my faith. In other words, I was not thinking about you.But then I stumbled on something in my search on love that got me to inckling about you. And I put together what I found troubling about your list, but couldn't quite define.Admittedly the following is based on the premise (which of course isn't proven) that some of the problems in your marriage are rooted in your spiritual life (which I sense is currently out of whack).I make no judgement on the items on your list, in regards to their individual or collective appropriateness in your marriage bed.My unsettled inclke was your motivation, or where your desire for your listed items where rooted.And although this is obviously not based in fact, I think your wife's reaction to the list, may be more her concern for where your desire is rooted. I doubt if she could verbalize this...although her hooker statements may be a clue. I am sure it is also her general distaste based on her personality, as well.And what concerns me about your motivation? I get the feeling (I know I am using the wrong language with you, but I obviously don't have facts, so humor me [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

) that your desire for SF teeters over the fense to the side of lust. The Book of 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 Verses4:4 That every one know - For this requires knowledge, as well as chastity. To possess his vessel - His wife. In sanctification and honour - So as neither to dishonour God or himself, nor to obstruct, but further, holiness; remembering, marriage is not designed to inflame, but to conquer, natural desires. 4:5 Not in passionate desire - Which had no place in man when in a state of innocence. Who know not God - And so may naturally seek happiness in a creature. What seemingly accidental words slide in; and yet how fine, and how vastly important! 4:6 In this matter - By violating his bed. The things forbidden, here are three: fornication, 1 Thessalonians 4:3;the passion of desire, or inordinate affection in the married state, 1 Thessalonians 4:5; and the breach of the marriage contract <A HREF="http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/WesleysExplanatoryNotes/wes.cgi?book=1th&chapter=4#1Th4_4" TARGET=_blank>http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/WesleysExplanatoryNotes/wes.cgi?book=1th&chapter=4#1Th4_4</A> It is a good thing to want to have a great sex life...even a sex life of passionate abandon...even a explicit sex life. But in a manner, or for the purpose, of bring honor to your wife and marriage. And that is where I sense a disconnect or snag. I think you may have singled out and prioritized your specific sexual desires to a point where they have an unbalanced priority.The idea that you felt your heart was ripped out when she initially rejected your list may indicate that your list has become so much a part of who you are at this point of time, that you felt like YOU were rejected, not just a list of needs. Is it possible that your withdrawl or the heart and the unsettledness of your mind has something to do with the conflict between your faith and the priority your desires hold in your life?Try prayfully going over that list with God, and see what answers you come up with.

Hi TS, yes I read what you highlighted. I will also reread it several times today. And you feel rejected because you think she just doesn't want to please you, when in actuality she wants very much to please you. My negative feelings come from thinking that the things on my list are against her nature and she can’t do them without feeling raped. I don’t want her to do these things under these conditions, I wouldn’t want anyone to. SF, was not the only attachment to my EN’s questionnaire. I had an attachment for my other top 4 needs. Affection was #2, this need is currently an unfulfilled need, 90% of the affection is be giving her affection. One gripe I have, when she does hug me she pats me on the back like she is burping a baby. I like big bear hugs with back rubs, French kisses rather than pecks. It could be nice for her to melt into my arms and cuddle. She said a couple of days ago that SF and Affection is the same thing. She has been more open and honestly lately and she is a good mother, conversation is plagued with LB’s. We are going on vacation next week, I’m not looking forward to tho. ------------------ Scott

YOU NEED GAS-hehe, but then won't your wife pull out the match??? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Ok, seriously, I have some inspiration. You have already found some attended that divorce court and seeing what others go through. I am a great example of getting caught up in my needs and wants. Then, I bulldozeover my H's needs and wants, trying so desparately to poignantly announce "Here, I am a person, and need my needs validated".I understand your frustration in not having needs met, sexual needs has been an ongoing demand.Writing letters and communicating is something that delivers the same message you have been saying for a long time, but it is just presented in a different form. Scott,you have the eloquence of a novelist, but there will be no way to write these feelings and present them with even doses of praise and scolding without getting chastised. Your wife may only hear the "I want to have sex, and you are so nice and lovely and wonderful *BUT* you don't give me what I want. Ultimately, none of this amounts to squat because you don't fulfill my sexual needs.The only way common ground will be made is to just simply replace the nagging, needy, sexually charged voice in your head with a gentler, quieter, subtle voice. You cannot and should not change your wife's fundamental beliefs...no matyter how outrageous they seem at times. You married her and chose her for a life partner, and must accept that this is the way she is. Understanding that she just may not be able to fulfill these sexual needs to the extent that you desire would help a great deal. Opposites attract-bottom line. But instead of looking at your relationship as two negative magnets, prpelling eachother farther away, regard your marriage as yin and yang. What you lack she holds, and what you crave she turns away...now how do you change the concepts of yin and yang? Stop playing opposites, and model her behavior. Model her sexual frequency for a month and follow her lead. Make her comfortable with herself, with her sexual adventures with you. I am sorry I am focussing so much on the sexual part of it, but I do feel this is one of your biggest controversies, isn't it? It has always been like this..od you really believe a letter will change?No, approach is the key. How many instances can you relate to where you have been angry or turned off by someone at work, and then it seems as though the negativity swarms the room, engulfing all around? All of a sudden, you dread going into work, or do not enjoy the presence of that person anymore. I have had many instances where I butt heads with an older co-worker, and I kept doing the same thing-going into work, grumbling behind her back, reacting when she made me angry, venting when I went home.AhA! I realized that my negative cycle was making things worese, and we were feeding each others anger.Once I halted that thinking, greeted her with a smile, treated her with great respect (what she wanted) and listened, she opened up to me and was more tolerant(what I wanted).Perhaps this scenario is not best suited to your wife; I know she is fairly set in her ways of thinking, but perhaps to her YOU are the annoyance, the one who will not be upright at all times...and your reclined behavior has caused great turbulance in her spirit, and her perception of you...just like you, my friend. You both should find comfort that you are not alone in how you feel about each other .Take care Scoot, Carina

I am thinking that you two are very well-matched indeed. Both of you are entrenched SJ's deeply committed to their own view of reality in Black and White. Fortunately Scott, you have made a world of progress since I've been here. Here is a prophecy [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

: This point right here and now seems to be the crux for you. When you are BLOCKED, creativity is mandatory, and as you persist in seeking you can achieve breakthroughs. The next few weeks will probably see a revolution in your marriage or reality.

.oops[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: Promised Forever ]