I’ve been referring to this site for months since my intense affair ended with a co-worker. I am so ashamed and confused and seek your input – the harsh and the sublime. My apologies as this is going to be long.

Where I need your input is on how my affair is affecting my marriage even though the EMA is over. (The affair was emotional for 3+ months, physically together one time. We ended it in May and after I was laid-off in July we have had no contact. MM’s wife knows of our infidelity. MM and I both have kids and are both Christian.) My husband and I have been married 14 years. I have read Dr. Harley’s advice here as well as several other books and they all have differing opinions so I’m going to you – those who have lived this. (Books include “How Can I Forgive You”, “The Monogamy Myth”, “When Good People Have Affairs”, “Infidelity”, “Boundaries”, and “Can Your Relationship Be Saved”.)

I’ve been asking husband for over 3 years to do marriage counseling as we’ve been drifting apart since the birth of our 5-year-old. He can be very bitter and he’s a pro at being passive aggressive. He talked down to me, showed no affection, refused to kiss me even when I asked for kisses, and on and on. Despite losing weight and looking better than I have in 20 years, he had little interest in sex. I’ve been vocal with him about my unhappiness and disconnectedness since last November. My friends and family agree that my husband treats me poorly, but I told only my therapist about the affair. In August I walked out on my husband and that’s when he realized I was serious about divorcing him. He has been very close to ugly divorces throughout his family and will do anything (he says now) to not be divorced.

We’ve been in counseling since end of August and my husband is working hard to change. He is reaching out to me more, controlling his temper (better, anyway), touching me, making love to me instead of just satisfying himself, helping more with the kids, says thank you throughout the day for the things I do… The things I’ve been wanting. But I still don’t trust him with my heart. He has slipped a couple of times reverting to his old self and I am very suspicious of his real motives. I don’t know if I’ll ever get back to where I need to be in order to be happy with him again. I’m so scared it’s too late. I haven’t loved him for quite a while.

So… Do I tell my husband about my EMA? I believe I’m not fully committed to trying to save this marriage because I feel so horrible about my betrayal. There is a HUGE elephant in the room that only I know about and I feel in fairness he should know what’s happening – why I’m so emotional at times and distant even though he’s making efforts. If I tell him then he can make his decision whether to invest in the therapy and in this marriage based on the full picture. I’m not worried about him leaving because I would deserve that. What I am worried about are two things:
1. If he leaves, the reason everyone will hear is because I cheated, not because he was mean to me and didn’t care about me for years. I will be ostracized from all of our social circles. (We have all the same friends from school, church, and the neighborhood.) Being cheated on is absolutely good enough reason to divorce someone. So maybe that’s my ultimate consequence for betraying my promise to forsake all others. It’s just that it’s not the full story.
2. What if I tell him and we don’t work out anyway? I’ll have destroyed him in two ways. And even though I don’t love him as my husband and lover, I do care for him as the father of our kids and as a friend I’ve known for 20+ years.

(Our couple’s therapist now knows of the affair and said I can tell my husband or not. He said whatever I decide he will support and will work with us.)

What do I do?

1. If I tell him then we’re both working on the relationship from a place of honesty and reality. If we stay together it could be so much better because there will be no secrets. Then again, he could be even bitterer and use it against me. He has used even the littlest things to make me feel small and stupid – like forgetting to buy cookies from the store.
2. If I tell him and we don’t stick, I’ll have hurt him with the betrayal AND with the divorce.
3. If I don’t tell him and we stay together, I will go clinically crazy trying to hold this secret for another 40 years. I’ve held it in for a few months and I’m a wreck because I am not a liar. I know that’s not true since I’ve committed the biggest lie ever with the affair, but it’s so against what I believe. I can’t imagine keeping it from him for another six months let alone forever.
4. If I don’t tell him and we divorce, then he doesn’t know and won’t suffer that pain, but he will have the pain of divorce. And I’ll feel guilty knowing that maybe I didn’t give our marriage the full attention it deserved because I was so distracted by the shame from my cheating.

If not for the kids and the long history with this man, I probably would have left him before the affair even happened. But it happened and I am disgusted, humiliated, and oh so sorry. I’m married to him (for better or worse, right?) and now he’s finally at least going through the motions to be a good husband. How does my EMA fit into all of this? Do I tell him now? Do I wait and tell him later if it looks like we may stay together? Do I hold my tongue and accept my guilty silence that is killing me as my much deserved punishment?

Thanks for taking the time to read this mini-novel.

He must be told. Your marriage can't recover without honesty.

Have you read the FAQ's about infidelity here?

Get Dr Harleys His Needs, Her Needs and Surviving an Affair. Also good from a Christian perspective is "Torn Assunder" In it, Dave Carder tells about a man who hid a ONS for 20 years. 20 WASTED years actually.

Please tell your husband. Even bring him here so we can help him.

First stop calling it an EA.

"The affair was emotional for 3+ months, physically together one time"

It only takes once to call it a PA.

You need to tell your BH. I think you should use your councelor to help do this during a sesson.

I'm new to this so I apologize as I don't know what all the abbreviations stand for... What does PA mean? I thought EMA stood for extra-marital affair. (Is there a glossary for all of these?)

Thank you for your advice.

Lucky, I am confused here. What is it you want? You can:
1) Keep living the lie and have a sham of a marriage
2) Take a new start in openness and honesty in hopes you can have the marriage you have always dreamed of
3) Walk away and never look back

It really boils down to how much you are willing to give. Making a marriage work requires true effort from both of you. It sounds like he is making an attempt, are you? A good start would be taking responsibility for your actions and pointing the finger at yourself instead of your husband. Sure, he may not have won husband and father of the year but that does not excuse your betrayal. He is already critically wounded from your actions - he just doesn't know it yet.

- Sh0cked

Acronyms

EA=emotional affair
PA=physical affair

Believe me, ShOcked. I blame only myself for the affair. I am 100% responsible for shamefully decieving my husband. It is the biggest mistake of my life and I will never ever be able to make right from it. I cry sevearl times every day because of the pain I know I have caused so many people -- whether they know it or not. I have no idea how people live with this shame. It consumes me.

I tried to make the marriage work for years. Really I did. Many asked how I stayed with him because of how badly he treated me. Even his best friend asked me recently how I put up with him. But my answer was simple. Because of the kids. I have been in counseling, I've talked with our pastor, I've tried writing letters to my husband, begging him, being super sweet and ever-forgiving, nagging, accepting all of the blame, giving him distance, giving him all of my attention... I don't know what else I could have done. I've been forthright with him for 3 years that I'm worried about our relationship. I'd tell him I'm unhappy and his response was (and I'm not kidding) "Well I'm happy so it's your problem." Working on a marriage requires 2 people.

I promise I am not justifying the affair. I work in a male-dominated industry and have had ample opportunities to cheat. But my beliefs kept me honest. Until last February when I messed up everything. I appreciate that my husband is now trying. It's the way it should be now -- both of us contributing to the relationship with home care, child care, and initiating intimacy. But I know I'm not completey there because of what I did. I can't forgive myself so how can I even begin to think he'll forgive me? I mean, really?

But I think y'all are right. I made my bed. I need to lie in it and know that whatever comes I brought it upon myself. I just need the courage. It makes me sad to think that finally -- in this last month I've seen a husband that I've been wanting for so long. And now I will ruin everything with the truth and hurt him like no one ever deserves.

Well, if it helps, I was betrayed and it was quite the smack from a 2x4. I changed my ways and now my W is amazed at the transformation. She was slow to trust that my behavior would become permanent but time has shown her otherwise. She now believes I would win husband and father of the year. Every day she tells me what a wonderful person I am.

If you really are remorseful and are willing to put in a huge amount of one-sided effort, by all means try and save your marriage. Be prepared, however, as recovery requires an enormous amount of work. He may be like me and get a serious wake-up call or he may be like others and want to leave the marriage. Either way, I highly suggest you steer him to this site for support.

Best of luck to you and your husband.

- Sh0cked

I am so sorry for you, Sh0cked. Thank you for sharing as your strength is something I can gain from. I can only imagine what you have been through.

Not to get off track as I'm still interested in hearing other opinions about my situation... But did you learn of the affair directly from your wife? I guess that's personal so of course you don't have to disclose that. I'm now leaning toward telling my husband. (This website is having a profound impact on me today.) It's going to be a horrific experience and I need to know the least disasterous way to tell him. Do I do it one on one? Do I do it during a counseling session? Do I do it with our pastor? At night? Before he leaves on a business trip so he can be away from me? I'm not naive to think there is a "best" way to do this. But having been on the receiving end, do you have or does anyone have ideas about the least painful way to hear this horrible news? I'm asking for his sake, not mine.

There is no "good way"

If you think he may be violent have a counsellor there.

Otherwise one-on-one face to face. Sit down with him. Hold his hands. Look into his eyes and tell him.

Welcome to MB, Looking4.

I know your feelings of being abused....BTDT for 30+ years...story linked to my sig line.

You seem to have outlined very good reasons to confess above and your following scenario would be a good option:

If you are seeing a qualified trained couselor you both trust it could lessen the impact of your revelation. I would caution you, however, that a counselor who did not encourage you to confess immediately might not be in your best interest in the future.

Yes, your betrayed husband could use your confession against you and be even more bitter than before. The longer you withhold the information, however, the more bitter he might be.

Bitterness or not, you must have openness and honesty if you want to rebuild your marriage. I would also suggest that you offer to do anything possible to regain your husband's trust, recognizing that bitterness and resentment will be a natural by-product for a time.

Because my H and I were both passive aggressive, angry and resentful of each other for so many years, it would have been better if he could have confessed with the help of a counselor.

Glad to hear that this site is helping you lean towards confessing your affair. Another option might be to read all the articles on this site and check to see if there are any counselors in your area who are trained in Marriage Building concepts.

If not, you also might consider MB phone counseling with Jennifer....call the MB counseling center and see if this will work for you.

Best wishes, Looking4 and I hope you'll keep posting.

Ace

No, but I knew in my heart that there was something wrong. I kept torturing myself trying to come to grips with it. I even went so far as seeking out an IC because I couldn't understand what was happening to our relationship. The day after my appointment, I found out.

She had left the login to her email up on the computer screen. I took a stab at the password and sure enough, I got in and found love letters to/from the OM. I confronted her, she initially denied it, but confessed when I presented her with the evidence. She refused to stop seeing him and about a week later, she moved out.

To make a long story short, her A ended about a month later. She was not sure if she was willing to commit to the marriage but at suggestion of a MC, she decided to move back in and take it day by day. I worked my tail off on Plan A (read up on that) and won her love back. Today our relationship is better than it has ever been.

I don’t know if there are any “good ways” to break the news, only bad and worse ways. I would not tell him just before a business trip. I was worthless for about 2 weeks and could not focus on my job. I agree with bigkahuna – if you are worried about him being violent, your pastor may be the best bet otherwise hold his hand and look him in the eye.

Looking4, do not feel sorry for me. It was the worst pain imaginable but I am much better off than I was before. The whole experience taught me to be a better father, husband, and individual.

Haven't you read the basic concepts?




highlighting this:
2. HISTORICAL HONESTY: Reveal information about your personal history, particularly events that demonstrate personal weakness or failure.

with an emphasis on this:
particularly events that demonstrate personal weakness or failure

Thank you, Pepperband. (And everyone else.) I have read the basic concepts. I've been reading Dr. Harley's advice and posts on this website for months and I know what I'm supposed to do. It's not pride that keeps me from telling. I deserve to be shamed. I'll wear the scarlet letter. I brought it on and know I am the only one responsible for my sin.

Where I'm stuck is with hurting him. As much a I've been hurt in this marriage and as much as I've wanted out in the last year, I still can't hurt my husband with this news that will tear him apart. My struggle is that I don't know if I want to rebuild this marriage. As Ace and everyone states, I need to tell in order repair this relationship. But I have been trying for almost three years to fix our marriage. And up until 2 months ago, I have been alone in this effort. (Posts above give more of the story.) I'm afraid it's too little to late as I don't love my husband any more. And he knows this. As recently as this afternoon I was googling divorce lawyers because once again he belittled me in front of our children. He seems to be changing, then he regresses right back to making me feel like nothing. So if I tell him about the PA then determine I can't stay in this relationship anymore, what good does telling him do? If I tell him and he decides he wants work on the marriage but I determine I can't, what will happen to him then? I effectively checked out of our marriage in June. He didn't care until I left one night. And even when he finally agreed to counseling, he said he was doing it for the kids. Nothing about doing it for us.

I want to tell. I know I'm supposed to tell. But I don't know if I can be married anymore. I need your wisdom.

That really isn't your decision to make - it is your husbands.

Exposure of an affair will definitely change the dynamic in your marriage.

This site is FULL of the stories of BS's who once SWORE an affair would be the end of the marriage but who when confronted with the spouses affair not only didn't end the marriage they worked to address the WS's grievances and as a result they and their spouse fell in love.

No dear. You do not get to make that choice. Your fear is talking. Time to stand up to the plate.

:RollieEyes: SHOW ME where it says THIS in MB basic concepts?

How do you feel about the vows you took when you married?
Are they toss away things?

My vows are not toss away things. But then I don't even know who I am any more. I also vowed to foresake others and yet I did it. Ask anyone who knows me and I am the last person they would ever peg as an adulterer -- yet I am. I am a liar. It's been NC for over 4 months and I still can't look myself in the mirror. But this is not my pity party... I know what I'm supposed to do. I just need reassurance that despite the h*** it's going to bring to my H, and whether or not we stay together, it must be done. What the fallout is going to be, it's going to be. Based on what y'all and MB are telling me, it's the least I can do for my H.

Looking4 - Doesn't seem to be too much in the way of "Christian" counseling and books there, that is what strikes me for someone who claims to BE a Christian. Where is God's Word in your list of "reference books?"

So let's get one FACT "out of the way" before going onto anything else. "Everyone," EXCEPT for your husband, already knows about your adultery?

TRUST, (of the "I grant you my trust in a 'blind trust' fashion)which is what your husband has in you, is about to "Go away forever." "THOU SHALT NOT..." is NOT a suggestion. It is both a command and warning to keep you from negative consequences.

Your husband MAY choose to divorce you. He has that right.

I have been on "his side of the table," and I am a Christian, as is my wife (no, it didn't stop her from giving in to temptation either, blaming me as you are blaming your husband, as a means to "justify" the adultery in her mind).

Take if from me, in many respects it would have been "easier" to simply divorce and move on. Recovery FROM adultery is HARD. It is a "life changing" event that cannot be "undone." If it were NOT for God's forgiveness and strength that is available to believers, I personally don't think a recovered marriage is possible. People CAN stay in "recovery" and stay "married," but reaching "recovered" is highly unlikely. It is that hard even for believers who DO have resources "outside of themselves.

So, as a professing believer, let me offer this to you. DO NOT attempt to recover your marriage WITHOUT the assistance of a trained Christian marriage counselor who is committed to BOTH saving your marriage and helping you both become submitted followers of Christ no matter what you might be feeling at any given time.

Do it WITH Christ or without Christ. You each have that choice. You've already tried dealing with your marriage problems without Christ and have now seen who "wonderful" sin is in ALL of its aspects.

God KNOWS how extremely painful adultery is, and it is the one reason He gives us to divorce that does not entail the faithful spouse themselves committing adultery in future relationships.

So don't "fool yourself." This revelation to your husband IS necessary, but it also IS a the "Thermonuclear Bomb" that will destroy him. Rebuilding NEEDS to be with the Lord, not a "do it yourself fix 'em up kit."

And one last piece of advice. DON'T you dare try to shift ANY blame for YOUR choice to commit adultery and trash YOUR marriage vows IF you truly ARE "sorry" and if you DO want a chance to save your marriage.

The first part of ANY confession and repentance is .... "LORD, *I* have sinned against you...." It is NOT....so and so made me do it.

Don't ever forget that.

The second part is Forgiveness, as God has commanded us and as God has forgiven us. But only IN and WITH Christ, not on our own in some "pseudo" sort of "feel good forgiveness."

Looking4, you NEED, and your husband will NEED, to be surrounded with solid Christian help to get through this.

You, Christian, don't have a "choice" in the matter. You ARE married.

It is your husband who "has the choice." You already chose.

And NO, you have NOT been trying to "fix" your marriage. You tried on your own, without God, and you only tried enough to "justify" in your mind that it was "okay" to violate your vows to God and to your husband.

You are about to find out that that "greener grass" on the other side of the fence also comes with a gigantic water bill.

Keep denying. Keep justifying. Keep giving your husband no reason to want to even try to recover from your adultery.

Good luck.

You'd be surprised how many adulterers feel the same way. My FWW's said basically the same thing, even though she cheated.. twice.

Here's the thing: You can CHOOSE to not be an adulterer. You can CHOOSE to not be a liar. Yes, the latter may be a difficult choice because of the consequences you may have to face, but I suspect that it will probably be better to face those consequences now, rather than living a lifetime of fear that your BH will eventually discover what you did.

Hi Looking4,

You are one courageous woman.* You are obviously underestimating yourself. Please do NOT underestimate your husband and his ability to change.

I was in your shoes for over 30 years, feeling like since I had married for the wrong reason (to not be left behind since I never had a boyfriend ever), that I was wasting my life so I looked for any reason to get out.

For all of our 30 years I had bought marriage books, tapes & videos, and signed us up for marriage counseling, seminars, workshops, retreats and conferences. My H went along on the outside, but he was noticeably absent on the inside, thus we abused each other so horribly that our daughter wanted us to divorce and told me that often. (It was as much my fault as his.)

Finally, I checked out of our marriage when my H got upset at a massively huge marriage conference (in a sports arena). I told him that I was done suggesting solutions to fixing our detached marriage, that if we were to make it, it would be up to him to seek further help.

We began existing as roommates passing in the night (for SF, go figure) but we virtually became strangers in all other ways.

How bad was it?

Our relationship was so detached that when I resorted to having multiple EA's, he was glad about my conversations with other men when I told him because it meant that he didn't have to worry about meeting my EN's. (Of course I didn't know about EN's or that that I was having EA's for many years....details in Chapter 6 of my story linked to my sig line....I called them "almost" EA's because they were never secret ~ I told him everything...and he didn't even care ~ pretty bad M, wouldn't you say?)

About 3 years later, my H had what started as an online EA with eventual phone/email sexual exchanges, in spite of the fact that I was trying to change my behavior.

After our DD26 and DS24 found his open email account and confronted him, I was very calm the night he confessed (I thought we were alone, but they were sitting on the front porch to make sure he went through with his confession.)

Why was I calm?

Because as he spoke the words "I've been unfaithful to you," I was thinking "Yippeee...now I have my reason to get out!!!!! and God gives me the right now that I've been betrayed."

My H was shocked at my lack of anger. After about 10 minutes, he invited DS and DD to come in. DS came into the family room, but DD refused and stayed in the adjacent living room...she could not even be in the same room as her father (it took several months for her to forgive).

So why did I stay?

My H told both DD & DS that he would do whatever I wanted, that he would give me an uncontested divorce and that I could have everything and he would pay his shares of the debt.....etc.

I was rejoicing inside, but stopped cold when I discovered that DS, a 24 year old married young man was crying, saying, "no, you fight for this family just like you told DD and me to. If it means you get D'd that's fine, but you fight first. God wants you to fight for us."

3 more D-Days and over 2 years later, we are still on our honeymoon phase (like Stickinthemud, another FWW mentioned) and it's contiinually getting better every day.

How?

Mostly because we listened to God speaking through DS's challenge, we sought to return to our Christian foundation and we eventually found MB books, which led to this web site and my registering for these forums in Jan. 2007. We also called a very tough MC, who we had previously avoided because he had been my H's best friend for 20+ years before we moved. Many posters including BK, Pep and FH and others were tremendously helpful in my seeing how I needed to change. They are helping (and can continue to help) you, too.

Looking4, there are far more similarities in my situation and yours that I can't share on this public forum because of privacy issues (no one knows about my H's A's and he's the last person many would suspect would succumb to such a temptation. I ignorantly shared this web site with family members before I knew about these discussion forums). My email address is permanently imbedded in one of my stories below so email me if you'd like to know more.

You say you think it's too little too late for you and your H........well, after 30 years, I know that there are exceptions to every rule and it's never too late. Bring your H here if you want to rebuild (or even if you don't) as these principles will help you with both your marriage and personal recovery.

You can rebuild your love for your H. With the help of MB, we are building our love for each other after 30+ years of merely existing.

Best wishes as you confess to your H. Even if you divorce, your confession will clean your slate for any future relationship God may have in store for you.

I'll be praying for you.

Ace

* edited to clarify ~ L4, I meant that you are courageous to be willing to post here and after I re-read my post, I didn't want you or anyone to assume that I meant that having an affair (while courageous in the foggy eyes of some) was anything to be proud of.

Want to feel better about yourself? Become honest again, your self esteem will rise.

Thank you, ForeverHers. Your straightforwardness is appreciated.

To clarify, "everyone" does not know and I didn't mean to imply that if I did. My therapist knows, our couple's counselor learned of this a week ago, God knows, and I know. The OM and his wife who live 2000 miles away and whom I will never see again are the only others that I'm aware of. (I don't know how they're handling this.)

I have not tried to fix this on my own. I have reached out to many resources as our marrige has unraveled over the years. The one crucial ingrediant that I was not able to include in the recipe was my H. My H wanted no part of it until two months ago. The Bible and other Christian websites have been among my resources. And ashamedly, the A was with another Christian who was supposedly also a source of support. My story is not quite as extreme as Ace's but it is certainly similar. I can read the books, fill out the EN questionaire, pray, meet with my pastor, get counseling, talk with my husband, and do everything else recommended by other Christians and also in the secular world, but if the partner isn't engaged and tells you it's not his problem, what else can you do? You can't have an affair. And I know this. I regret that decision that I made with every fiber of my being.

You are right in that by hiding this HUGE mistake from my husband I am not giving it all to fix my relationship now. I'm well aware of this (see original post). I also have never justified the affair. Not here. Not in my head. And not in my heart. My husband could be the worst person in the world (he's absolutely not) and it doesn't justify my betrayal. I'm not denying my responsibility. What I'm tyring to do at this point is gather the strength to do what I know will destroy him. He's on a business trip and I need to do this when he returns. I wouldn't wish the pain of this truth on anyone, let alone him, yet I know it's going to come.

You are right that it is now my husband who must have the choice.

Thank you all for helping me. All of you seem to be the BS and the fact that you're even willing to help a person who reprents the bad that happened to you... I am grateful for your time.

ManInMotion, thank you for putting it so plainly. I chose to be an adulterer and that can't be undone. But I can still choose to not be a liar, at least from this point forward.

I can't even imagine, Ace... YOU are the courageous one. Thank you for sharing your truth and your wisdom.

L4,

Please pick out some BH threads for your husband to read on this website, I was alot like your husband before I came here, undermining my wifes self esteem and the respect of my children for her. After reading some BH stories here it was "OMG that's me".

My wife didn't understand what happened, it came from out of the blue. I just decided to unilaterally improve our relationship, and I didn't expect her to do or not do anything. I can't say that your husband will or will not do this but it is worth a shot.

Also the WW/FWW threads were an eye opener for me as I got to see myself from my wifes viewpoint. Again the "OMG that's me" feeling. Pick out some relevant ones before you come clean so you'll be prepared.

None of the threads were exactly like my circumstances, but you read enough of them and it builds up a nearly complete picture.

God Bless
NJ

Hi L4,

I repeat that it takes courage to seek help from anyone, let alone a place where most of the participants are experiencing the same pain that you have caused.

You are also underestimating your husband. How can I say that when I don't know you or your husband? Because when we pre-judge anyone we rob them of their potential to change in our own eyes. I'm not quite sure if I put that in a way that even I can understand so let me try another approach.

Here's an example:

I wanted out for most of our 30 year marriage but could not justify it because we were both Christians.

H gave me a reason to get out when he chose to become a WH.

I underestimated his ability to withstand such a temptation. (Also, I figured that if any other woman wanted him, she was welcome to take him off my hands!!!)

I decided to get out.

I underestimated DS's perception about the importance of family and how it might affect his perspective when he was 24 years old.

DD would not even enter the same room as her father and did not speak to or about him for months. I underestimated the depths of her disgust in her father's behavior.

I chose to accept DS's challenge because I did not expect my WH to follow through (because I underestimated his willingness to recover).

I can tell you that you are underestimating your H and his response because you are NOT your H. You cannot know what he will do and say any more than I could predict what my WH and DD and DS would do and say....and I know them very well.

Edited to add/change: If I would have acted on my pre-judging "underestimation" of my WH and my DS and DD, I would have chosen my first option ~ accepting my WH's offer of an uncontested divorce. By doing that, however, I would have robbed our family of recovering our marriage and family simply because of limiting my choices to what I 'saw' from my own pre-judging eyes.

I'm glad I made the extra effort and did not take the easy way out. My husband contemplated slamming his truck into a concrete wall on his way home to confess to me, but knew that our DD and DS were in the car behind him after they had confronted him together. My WH was glad then as well as now that he did the difficult thing. If he had not, we would have had zero chance of recovery. By confessing, committing to do everything to help me heal and rebuild our trust and following through, we are now on the road to recovery. /edit

Does that make sense?

Your reply to me may hold a part of your solution:


I had been imagining my dream husband for 30+ years and had tried to manipulate my poor H into becoming him.

This was good and bad. Bad for obvious reasons, but good because it gave me a vision of what I wanted.

When my tough 24 year old son cried and challenged me/us to fight for our family and my blubbering WH said he would do anything and everything to change into the man of my dreams, I knew who and what that was. (Details in my Mr. romAnCE saga below).

So I give you the same challenges, L4.

1) Fight for your family.

2) Imagine your life, marriage and family as God might want it to be.

What do you want for you? To be honest? To have a clean slate? To be forgiven? To give your betrayed husband the honor that he deserves...and at the same time giving you the chance to rebuild what you once had.

Take my word for it. Nothing is impossible and it is never too late.

I haven't posted much over the last several months due to personal challenges, and I seldom post during weekdays, but I'm off today and your story caught my eye. I was a horrible wife who now cares. Any my FWH was a horrible hubby who now cares.

You can do this, L4. We're all pulling for you.

Ace

P.S. Your intense pain, while seemingly of no value now, will give you continuing incentive to recover as well as provide a way for you to emphasize with others who now regret succumbing to this temptation like you have. Should you choose, you will be able to help others overcome it like many of us are trying to help you.

I'll try to find a link to Lifechoice and Docp's story on the Success Story thread.

I would suggest you read the entire thread but the beginning several pages are irritating until the links to additional stories are fixed...hopefully soon.

Ace

P.S. Found it on page 11 on my computer but it might be different on yours. Here is Lifechoice & Docp's story together.

What inspiring stories of hope in this dark time. Thank you, Ace, for sharing yours and for sharing Lifechoice and Docp's success too. Y'all are giving me strength. I appreciate the prayers too.

And I'm deleting "Horrible" from the posting title going forward. He's not. I may have thought he was bad for me, but I'm sure I had a role in that. And I'm the last person who should be labeling anyone.

Here's a little housekeeping suggestion L4. You can only edit your inner outer thread title for a few hours ~ 30, I think. You might ask the mods to delete the word "horrible" from your outer title by clicking on the mod "notify" alert below or emailing a mod assigned to this forum. As you've discovered, you can change your inner thread subject with every new post. ETA I see you've already done this but will leave it for other new posters to observe. It took me awhile to realize this, but that was when we had 60 days, not 30 hours to edit our outer subject titles.


Great news, L4. Draw strength from knowing that many have done what you are contemplating and usually only have one regret: that they didn't confess sooner.

The longer you try to conceal such a secret, the deeper it erodes your inner being.

Will it be easy? No.

Will there be times you wished you hadn't said anything? Perhaps.

Is confessing the best thing for you and your husband now and in the future regardless if you choose to recover your marriage? Yes.

Keep posting and reading, knowing that we're all here for you.

Best wishes,

Ace

And the more damage it does to your marriage and your husband's ability to recover.

It isn't so much the A as it is the lies that hurt deeply. The longer the lies continue, the harder they are to get over.

When you are betrayed the thing that takes the biggest hit is trust. You not only lose the ability to trust the person who betrayed you but also your ability to trust yourself to make good judgments about others. This is because you feel like you misjudged the person you trusted most, your spouse, who now has not only broken that trust, but broken it in such a way that you question how you could ever have trusted such a person.

To not only break that trust but to also cover it up by lying just makes the hit so much harder to take. The longer the lies continue, the more you feel like a fool for believing in this person whose character you seem to have so greatly misjudged.

And once the truth begins to come out, it must all come out as fast as the BS can accept it. Any lies that are found out weeks or months after the initial confession, undo all the healing that has already taken place, resets the the timer to zero and eats away at the love the BS has left. Each time the likelihood of recovery goes down.

The only chance is to become completely honest going forward from confession. Nothing can be hidden any more. Full disclosure followed by never lying again and never side-stepping any question is the only way. Any lie going forward reduces the probability of recovery that much more.

Mark

I hope my story helps. My DH was completely clueless about the A until I confessed. I hope you don't wait as long as I did to confess to your DH. I don't for a second regret telling him, but I do regret waiting so long.

One of the most important things I learned was by not telling him about the A it made it as if we were rebuilding our marriage on a pile of sand. IOW, it was going to remain unstable. Just imagine if you build this great marriage and years from now your DH finds out about the A. He will think your marriage was a total sham and the fact is was not built on a solid foundation will cause all that work to crumble.

Right now you and your DH are rebuilding on sand and if you don't confess at some point things will crumble. It may not happen for years, but it will happen. (IMO anyway)

If you tell him, he has the choice to build with you a brand new structure on a solid foundation (total honesty).

When you tell him make sure you send him here, he will need the support of people who have BTDT. If you don't already have them get a copy of Surviving an Affair by Dr Harley and also After the Affair By Janis Spring and give them to him.

Confessing is the right thing to do and the sooner the better.

LC

Hi L4,

Glad to see you must have found a way to get your outer title changed.

LC's sand analogy should help give you strength to follow through with your confession....think of it as the first block of a solid foundation for your marriage.

Because you said your H was occasionally reverting back to the old H in his attitude, it might be good to have your confession take place with professional help. If we had to do it all over again, that would have been my preference. Of course, our determined DS24's challenge was probably far more impacting than any marital counselor might have been because it came from his reflecting the personal convictions we had taught both kids regarding family values. And it was totally unexpected so it jolted me.

A professional counselor will also help you keep respectful in your initial exchanges. Like LC mentioned, it might be good to write out what you want to say in advance.

The most important aspects of your confession, from my perspective is your honesty and sincerity. Also true remorse and a demonstrated effort (not just words) to do everything possible to help your spouse heal and rebuild trust is a must. I know I've said this before and many others have but it bears repeating.

One advantage you have that my WH did not have was you are able to confess instead of having been busted and confronted. If my WH had confessed on his own and sought help to change and help me heal after D-Day #1, we would be way further down the recovery road by now.

As you saw, LC had that perspective, too. What was her only regret? Waiting so long.

I'm sharing this to give you additional strength to follow through with grace and courage and humility and patience and remorse and most of all a willingness to change and grow and help your BH rebuild trust between you.

Ace

Thank you, Ace, and everyone else. (Where would I be without y'all?)

The analogy from LifesChoice of building on sand hits home.

We have a counseling session in three days but my H then leaves early the next morning for another business trip where he'll be gone for three more days. He returned just last night from a trip and is off with friends this afternoon for a football game. I think I should tell him tomorrow (not sure what to do about the kids) so we have a few days before he leaves as Sh0cked recommended not doing it right before my H goes out of town. But I also like the idea of having our counselor involved.

I have written out my confession. Wrote my first draft of it a couple of weeks after the PA happened 6 months ago. I've revised it and re-written it probably a dozen times since then.

At the end of the day, I can try to plan this as much as possible and it's not going to matter. It's going to be a living h*** for him. I'm ready to tell him thanks to your encouragement/insistance that it be done. Guess I need to take Mark1952's words to heart that every day that passes makes it harder.

When I think of this whole thing, it feels like I'm out of my body looking at someone else who did this horrible thing. It's hard to relay to you how having an A is exactly the opposite of what anyone would ever ever imagine of me - including myself. It's like I've been living numb in a kind of fog every day since I did this. So I need to do this not only for my BH, but also because I can't live this lie any more.

Again... Thank you all.

Looking4,

You need this to be 100% uninterupted so either get a sitter and you and your DH go somewhere or take the kids to someone else's house. My DH and I had many conversations while sitting in the car in the back of a parking lot.

Good luck. I know exactly how you feel right now. Don't chicken out and don't make excuses on why you can't do it tomorrow. You can do this because it's the right thing to do.

There's a big cyber hug because you might need it.

LC

Like I said, you are ONE courageous woman. I'm will be praying for you. Looking forward to your update.



Ace

Hey Looking4,

I've been praying for you. How's it going?

Ace

Thank you, Ace. My sister is coming to take the kids in a couple of hours. My husband knows something is up too. I'm scared to death. But I know I have to do this.

I just discovered this "pray" emoticom!

L4, you'll be just fine. Remember, you are not alone in all of this. It is the best thing to do.

(Glad you got your sister to take the kids.)

We're all here for you.

Picture all of us praying like this:



God will give you strength and you ARE doing the best thing for your future.

If your BH decides to start a thread here, let him know you'll respect his space....possibly not even reading or posting on it for awhile. We all know sort of what he's experiencing; it's different for everyone in some respects but much of it is the same for all of us.

Looking forward to your update.

May God give you peace, regardless of the outcome...

Ace

I told him.

He kicked me out of the house. He told me I can't be there when he's there. I am the biggest slut he has ever known. He doesn't believe that my one PA is my only A. I've been a liar throughout our entire relationship according to him. He is now reflecting back on every time I've been nice to a man and it was because I was looking to get laid, apparently.

He said he's getting a lawyer tomorrow and that he feels sorry for me and for what's to come. He said for the rest of my life I'll be the slut that ruined our marriage.

He said he will never go to counseling again. That is done. He said that me asking him to go to counseling was a way for me to get around my A. (I have been asking him to go since January 2006. My A started in February 08.) He said that was all a joke, he's done with it. He said I made him feel like a monster these last few months as I was asking him to do counseling and I made him feel like he needed to change. When all along, he said tonight, nothing was wrong with him, but it was me trying to justify my affair. He said I tried to make him feel like our marriage problems were his fault. That the last few months of me trying to get him to change was actually me trying to feel less guilty about my A, not because there were actually problem. He said he was having real anxiety feeling that our problems were his fault but in the end, I was just trying to justify my A so that ruse is over. He feels relieved that it wasn't him after all.

I apologized. The A is absolutely my fault. I've owned that within myself since that begining. And always will. I took responsibility for it tonight and apologized to him too.

I suggested he come to this site or check out books or even contact our pastor for support as he processes what I've done to him. He said he'll handle it how he wants and I have no right to tell him what to do. He doesn't need anyone else to tell him how to deal with things. He said every mean thing he could of and more. I can't even share what he said here because it was beyond hurtful. Probably justified considering what I'd done. He made me feel like our 14 years of marriage was all something he did out of pity for me because of some physical deformaties that I have. He implied he married me because he felt sorry for me. He said he should have never taken me back (20 years ago after having been apart for 2+ years) and that I was damaged goods but he felt sorry for me. I told him I thought we were together because we loved each other. He said he had begun to move on at the time back then and he should have stayed away from me.

He mentioned he feels sorry for me and I will never have what I thought I would get from this marriage. I'm reeling for what I may lose with my kids. They mean everything to me. I deserve consequences, but I'm scared for them.

He's sent two email since I left the house accusing me of coming on to everyone from friends to his co-workers in the last several years. I've had one and only one mistaken and very much regretful affair -- the one I've admitted to and regret so much here. From this point forward, however, he said I will always be the "wh**e" who has no morals and who can't keep her legs together.

I've confessed to my two sisters and my parents about my lies. They are doing their best to support me at this moment, but I am a cheater who is feeling as low as a cheater should right now. (They are in no way condoning what I've done.) Again -- I own 100% responsibilty for what I did.

It's worse than I thought. I owed him the truth and I deserve his wrath. I'm quite numb right now.

Looking4,

I am so sorry he was so mean and said such hurtful things. You still did the right thing and I'm proud of you for doing what had to be done (I know that doesn't mean a whole lot right now).

Email him a link directly to this forum. Add a little note that there are many men who post here and leave it at that. Hopefully his curiosity will lead him here and he will get the help he needs.

Did you get those 2 books I mentioned? If not, get them today and leave them for him.

My guess is there are many men who react exactly like he did initially. Right now what you need to do is try to breathe and relax (easier said than done).

When are you suppose to see the MC? If not anytime soon, call the MC today and tell them you need to see them ASAP. Even if you go by yourself or let him go by himself.

It's a rough ride, I hope he comes around and will at least be open to reading something.

I'm glad you have your family for support. If need be will they talk to him and also try to guide him here?



LC

My email address is in my profile if you want to contact me.

L4, first of all, I think it's great that you've decided to "live in truth" and not lie to your H any more. A good step towards true personal recovery.

As for your H, he's likely in a world of pain right now and lashed out as many do in such circumstances.

It's what he does when he starts to calm down that's most important. Will he take part of the responsibility for the state of the M before the A? Will he take ownership for the damage he caused? Or will he try to make everything your fault? If the former, there's a good chance of recovery for your M. If the latter, this is probably not the person you want to spend the rest of your life with anyway.

And yes, unfortunately he's going to question if he did the right thing at those times he could have walked away (like that separation you mentioned that happened over 20 years ago). I did the same when my FWW disclosed her A to me.

Oh Looking4, I know this may seem like the worst possible thing for you right now.

MIM and LC are right in that you did the correct thing, in spite of your pain and his anger.

Remember that hate is not the opposite of love......indifference is.

Remember when I was calm after my WH confessd after he was confronted?

Why was I calm?

Because I did not care.

On D-Days 3 and 4, after I started to care, I screamed and shouted every negative obsenity I ever heard (including the F-bomb) at him.

He sat quietly and took it.

That impressed me.

Then I did it again....it seemed like I couldn't help it.

He shook his head and apologized.

Then I did it again.

He went to the computer and pounded out a journal entry, crying out ot God to forgive him, acknowledging he deserved everything that was happening and he emailed it to me.

He said he'd leave.

I told him to go.

He changed his mind at the door.

Had I known about this site, I would have come here to vent, but I didn't so I vented to and at him often.

He took it and apologized for weeks.

After D-day 2, he was angry when I lost it? Why? Because he was in withdrawal but neither of us knew it. After D-day #3 I was suicidal. But he was remorseful and contrite and willing to do anything that would help me heal after D-Day #4. Eventually I realized the difference in his reaction and felt like he was now sincere.

I know it hurts to hear his anger like it hurt my WH to hear mine. But it's part of the process that needs to happen if you are going to get beyond the lies and deceit of the past.

And now you can rebuild honestly....alone or with him (if and when he chooses). Time will tell.

At any rate, you can rebuild yourself, one solid honest brick at a time. No more sand.

I suggest you email LC as she has been in your shoes (and I can't post during the day.) I'm sure others will check back in with you. If you don't get many responses, it might be good to ask the mods to move your thread to GQII where there's more traffic than over here on the recovery forum. They could revise the title, too so posters can read your whole thread easier before responding to you.

L4, I agree that it would be good to give your BH the MB web address via email so he can check it out when he's ready. If he does, let him move at his own pace.

Like MIM said, his willingness to own his part will be the deciding factor; most likely it will take some time. If he continues to blame you and claim that your M was a sham and he files and follows through with a D, you may have the answer about whether or not you should stay married that you were seeking before. (I say 'may' because I personally know of 2 couples who divorced and remarried after infidelity.)

Either way, L4, you can now start to build your personal recovery on the fact that you were honest with your BH about your mistake. That's all that God expected of you and he will be with you as you rebuild, with or without your betrayed husband.

I'll be praying for you,
Ace

Do not leave the house. Tell him you had made a mistake then but you are staying because you are staying married.

If you move out you only make it easier for your BH to get you for abandonment. Which hurts custody and the whole list of legal issues that come into play.

Many a BH rant that they are going to D but do not follow through. If he wants to talk divorce tell him you don't talk divorce only marriage.

Show him that you have maintained NC. Be transparent. Offer up passwords and cell phone for him to verify NC.

L4,

As painful as it is right now, this is normal. He is in pain and lashing out. You knew how much this would hurt him and it did.

Time is your ally now. It will give him a chance to calm down and for you to be transparent with your actions. As difficult as this is, you did the right thing.

Read up on Plan A. You will want to be there for him as much as you can. I caution you, however, you are not a doormat.

Hang tough, L4. I promise you that whatever the outcome, it will get better.

Respectfully,
Sh0cked

PS - This is a great first step for working on you. See a physician and get on medication if you have difficulty dealing with depression. Get some exercise. Eat well. It is important you take care of yourself.

on a side bar here...

now imagine you didn't tell him, and waited another 5 years, til the OM's wife looked him up to tell him, since her husband probably will have had another affair or two.

Then you'd have 5 more years of lies he'd accuse you of.

-hang in there

It may not always be nice, but...the advice in this forum is incredible.

Looking,

You realize that your choice to have an affair was an unethical response to your husband's abuse and neglect. Rightly, you accept responsibility for that. Despite his poor treatment of you, you had many ethical choices besides an affair....so putting things right is going to be painful. Confessing allows you to give him a choice too and to re-align your actions and your Christian beliefs.

However, it is not too surprising that someone who has been belittling you for many years over trivial things, would verbally slam you over something this important. His reaction is fairly predictable given the rest of your description and in line with the way he expresses himself. I hope he isn't a violent man. If I had seen your post before today, I would have recommended you confess in a safe environment since he's shown a tendency toward abuse. He sounds very volatile. To be fair, however....even BS who have never been violent, can sometimes "lose it" when infidelity is revealed.

I still think you did the right thing, even though it won't feel that way for a while. You will not know for sure what the the ultimate outcome of this will be, until the shock abates a little and your husband has a chance to process his anger and move past the initial melt down. Because of your description...I honestly don't know if he will remain married....or at least remain married without rancor and resentment. If he can't....then your marriage will not be healthy for either of you anyway....and I think you know that.

Where there is a breakdown of this magnitude, it can easily destroy a marriage. But sometimes....it takes a breakdown to have a breakTHROUGH. Your husband has been systematically destroying your marriage for a long time. You tried to save your marriage for a long time....but managed to efficiently be even more destructive than he was in one fell swoop.

So now, you have negotiate from a position of weakness....much harder to do...but much more authentic and honest too...yanno? You don't sound like the kind of person who could have lived happily with this secret anyway.....so if you fail....then let it be while you're the person you want to be.

Hang in there.....first reactions are often knee-jerk and not the final end they appear to be. Allow him some leeway to spew some insults and ugliness right now....but do separate yourself from him if he becomes too threatening or verbally abusive. You have a tightrope to walk....between being properly remorseful and accepting blame without allowing him to go too far.

Please give us an update when you can.

((((((((((((((looking)))))))))))))))))))

Good job!

This is his reality, and he's going to be hurting for a while.

I know you think he was damaging the marriage and I would agree with that. But in reality, comparing what he did to what you did is like comparing his use of a BB gun to your use of nuclear weapons. They are not even in the same league.

Now, both of you eventually need to put down the weapons. Right now, since he now realizes he's been nuked, he likely is tempted to pick up more damaging weapons.

I think being kicked out is a good thing and here is why. It takes you out of the line of fire and it gives you time to focus not on how he's hurt you as you've gone on about here, but how you've NUKED him.

Eventually, both of you need to drop your weapons. Yet at this point, he's reeling from being nuked.

That's the thing about affairs, they have a half-life, and they are nasty things. That's one reason why I think the nuke analogy fits so well, because even though the betrayed may not see the blast, the damage, the radiation sticks around for a long time.
Talk is cheap. Maybe he will divorce. Maybe he wont. Even if he files, that doesn't mean it's over. He's extremely hurt, and is acting out of that hurt.
Do you blame him? You've been trying to "fix him" in counseling, yet you've been hiding the affair. You didn't come to him and say you were being tempted by another and want to draw close to him at the beginning of the affair, did you?

Did you confide such things to others, family, friends, but fail to confide in the one who is to be closest, your husband?

To him, the counseling is nothing but a sham. To him, it must look like you were not being honest, bringing up all his faults, why your radioactive affair was silently and invisibly damaging the marriage.

And the counselor who knew of this but didn't bring it up, didn't encourage you to tell. That must look like the counselor was on your side, a party to the deception.

Don't blame him for feeling or thinking this at all. You did want to change your husband so you would be more attracted to him than your affair partner.

Right now, he doesn't believe you, FOR GOOD REASON.

The only answer you can give right now is that you understand that he feels that way and you don't fault him one bit for feeling that.

What he's expressing is 100% understandable, and in many ways it's spot on.

He may not have the timeline down, but from his perspective, if you were trying to get him to change his approach, while having the affair, he has valid complaints about how this was handled on all fronts.

I think your husband is reacting in a pretty logical, understandable and in many ways healthy fashion. He's been gaslighted by your actions (you can look up gaslighting) since you were in counseling saying you wanted a better marriage while carrying on an affair with another man.

He's rightfully upset, even if the affair only started this year and the counseling started years ago.

You undoubtedly talked about communication. Yet you failed to communicate your affair or even feelings of attraction for another man probably while complaining about how he communicates.

Right now, there is NO WAY he could or should trust either you or that counselor given what he's experienced.
Your sisters and parents need to offer support to him as well, and your children. I think they need to deliver the message that what you did was wrong, they don't condone your actions and that they are there for him and that he will always be welcome in the family regardless what happens.

You need support, but you are not the only one. He too needs support and it may mean a great deal if they can look beyond bloodlines and simply be there for him and to stand with him in agreement that what happened was a horrible crime committed against him and the children.

He may not want the support, but it may mean a lot to him to know that your family is not just there for you, but there for him as well.

Give it time. He may not feel this way later. You may win him back. It is you that has to do the work. He may have been annoying. But it was you who nuked the marriage.

I believe you are remorseful over what you did. I don't think you yet grasp the depth of the damage and the hurt you've done to your husband and your children.

L4,

How are you? Hanging in there OK?

L4,

Don't give up!

Give him a day or two but try to remain in contact with him. Just be certain you don't turn defensive and try to justify the affair in any way.

He is angry because he has been hurt and his anger follows that.

While he might not have done much in the way of meeting your ENs for quite a while, I think that you might find that it's been a while since he felt you met his as well. If he just recently began to show more concern for you he is probably really feeling trashed and will for a while.

Saving your marriage will be the single hardest thing you've ever attempted at this point, but it still might happen though it will take a lot longer than you might want or expect.

Hang in there, L4. Lot;s of us are here to help...

Mark

Well done L4.

You've received great advice.

Your husbands anger will subside.

(((L4)))

Hey L4,

How's it going?


This is why we were able to begin recovery.....my WH never did try to justify his actions or blame me. If he had, we'd be D'd by now.

Still praying for you.

Ace

I've been out of of the house since I revealed the deception two nights ago and he kicked me out. I'll be back at home tomorrow, sleeping in the guest room.

As you probably expect from your own experiences, it's been very tough. But seriously... All of you have been such a comfort. Your directness and focus on accountability has been good for me. It keeps me in reality, as painful as it has been.

He now appears to be open to not jumping right to the divorce option. I can't fault him if that's where we end up. His accusations have softened but he's still rightfully hurt and saying things that are very hurtful to me. I'm trying to give him room. There will come a time when the verbal abuse will have to stop or I'll have to walk away, but for now, I'm taking what I deserve. I have to believe at some point it will lessen or stop.

I have no idea what our future may hold. He has revealed thoughts to me in the last two days that I had never heard from him before -- both positive and very negative. He's sorting through this. I understand. As he said, I've had months to process my deception since it ended while he's had only a couple of days.

He's accusing me now of entrapping the OM. He is actually expressing sympathy for the OM and accusing me of sleeping with all of my co-workers, his co-workers, random bartenders, and anything else that has crossed my path. I've told him over and over again that there was one man -- my first, my only, and my last. He doesn't trust that and I understand why. I don't deserve his trust. But it hurts nonetheless. I know I have no right to be upset by his reactions because of what I did, but I am human and his words are hitting deep.

I met with our pastor today who is providing guidence. I also met with our couple's counselor who endorsed the confession and encouraged me to see it through. H refused to attened today's session with me. The counselor and I talked about how to work this through with the kids.

Right now I care deeply for my H, but in this moment my priority is our children. H says he feels the same way. They are what drives me to get out of bed in the morning. I owe it to them to try to make the best life for all of us -- whether is means H and I are together or apart. Everything has been exposed these last couple of days and everything remains very raw. I have no idea what's going to happen. But I'm committed to riding this through.

Y'all are amazing.

Hi, L4. You did a really brave thing and eventually your H will thank you for it.

I just wanted to speak to the experience you are having with your H's 'verbal abuse'. For at least a week, if not two weeks, afetr D-Day, I spent most of my days hurling verbal acid at H. I was both ashamed and, with time, instructed by how much I wanted to talk to him, just him. I managed to talk to a few friends, but mostly I just wanted to talk to him.....I called him at 2AM, I called him again at 5AM. I called him at noon and every other hour of the day and I cried and yelled and sobbed and screamed. He took most of it.

Eventually all that acid purged itself from my language and we began to talk of other things. Gradually, we began to make our plan for recovery. Now, I still have days when I 'go dark' and hurl a bit more acid. He still takes it, only now I apologise when I come to my senses, and he tells me he understands and that it's OK, and as we go along these days seem to happen less and less.

My advice to you is to just listen. I got FURIOUS in the early days when H would say "I understand", because clearly he didn't. I got FURIOUS when he would say, "I don't believe that I'm a completely evil person", because in my mind just then he WAS, and my venting was largely about me in those days. Later on, when our talk became about us, there were appropriate places for him to defend himself against an unfair accusation, but I'd wait on that if I were you for now.

IMO, the best thing you can do right now is to say "I deserve this, I feel awful, I'm sorry". All the other stuff can wait. He's so damaged right now. His self-esteem is in the trash and he probably feels a very ugly need to trash yours, too. It's not a good place to be and it's not healthy, but it's something that I for one had to process through. It was like lancing an infection.

Do you have a plan for your kids? I stayed with my mother for a few weeks after D-day, and then went up to my family's summer house for a month after that. At Mum's the kids were with me, but H had them one evening per week and every other weekend. Once we moved up to the shore, he came to stay with us frequently.....several nights a week, plus weekends.

I highly recommend 'getting away'. Just three weeks after d-day, being away from the places where the A had happened, being away from the places where our M was so strained really helped. We experienced a very sweet 'honeymoon' phase there. It wasn't all happy; we talked through some painful stuff, we explored MB lots and did the questionnaires, we cried, but we also rediscovered our physical relationship and learned how to talk again. It didn't last.....we had hard work to do after that, but it gave us something positive to hang on to when things got hard again. It was a good foundation for our recovery work.

Good luck to you. Glad you did the right thing. I'm keeping you and especially your BH in my thoughts.

Looking4,

I'm glad you updated us. I was wondering what had transpired since your confession. It sounds like a positive step that you are moving back home.

I would highly recommend you start to journal if you haven't already. Just jot down how you are feeling, etc, etc. It really helps to release all of that onto paper.

I'm also glad to read you are looking for guidance from your pastor and MC.

What did the MC say about the verbal abuse? I'm not sure what advice to give you about that because that is something my DH never did to me. The down side of moving back home is your H may spew constantly at you. I personally would not be able to tolerate something like that and would set boundaries about it. Sure he's mad, but IMO he doesn't have the right to verbally abuse you. Hopefully those with experience in this area will give you advice on how to handle this part of it.

LC

L$,

If he moves away from the verbal abuse but falls back into it sometimes it is something that will need to be addressed but should probably be delayed since you have bigger problems right now.

I don't know if you have read many things here or any of Dr Harley's books but there is one thing that makes MB methods different than all the rest. That is the goal of Dr Harley's methods is to restore the love between you that brought you together in the first place. That should be the focus and the area where the most effort is put forth.

Improved communication is a must. Feeling safe from verbal abuse is a must. Being able to discuss an issue without either one of you hurting the other is a must.

None of those things matter one bit unless you love each other.

By this point you should have read the Basic Concepts. Begin trying to figure out what your H's ENs are and do what you can to meet them beginning right now. Also identify Love Busters that you tend to commit and work toward ending them.

Spend as much time together with your husband as you can manage right now. Don't bother discussing the relationship issues, save that for counseling sessions or a scheduled time during the week. Do as many fun things together as you can.

You see, the basis of all of this MB stuff is that if you both make deposits into each others Love Banks while avoiding making withdrawals due to Love Busters, then you WILL feel love toward each other. And when you are IN LOVE, a lot of serious problems become less important and many of them actually resolve themselves.

One thing to avoid like the plague right now is telling him in anger over his verbal assault that you had an affair because of anything he did or did not do. I know it's easy to say that when things are not spiraling out of control in an abusive argument and almost impossible to do when he says something you know was designed to hurt you. Just remember, that you can only control yourself and your own reactions, not his, so you do your half and eventually his half should come around. If it doesn't show improvement in a couple of weeks, assuming you are in control of your half of the relationship by then, things need to be addressed.

While it would be great to get him here so that he can get help with his share in all of this, do not try to convince him to post here by nagging him into doing it. Rather begin to practice the MB way of recovery by meeting his ENs, avoiding LBs, being totally honest with him, attempting to negotiate agreement on things instead of doing things on your own and spending as much time together doing recreational things more than trying to solve the problems that likely go back to even before the beginning of your marriage.

I would suggest either buying or finding a copy of His Needs/Her Needs and Love Busters or get a copy of Fall In Love Stay In Love. Begin to read and ask questions.

Surviving An Affair might also benefit you right now and especially if your husband would read it. But you can't spend the energy and time trying to fix his half right now.

Support is good and you will continue to get a lot of that. But if you want your marriage to come out of this BETTER than it was, you need to work on restoring the love to your marriage as your first priority.

We spend so much time dealing with affairs around here and trying to help each other solve deep rooted issues that we sometimes forget that the basis of all that Dr Harley teaches is that if we do specific things the right way (meet ENs and avoid love busters) then our spouse will be IN LOVE with us. And when we're IN LOVE, we have incentive to fix all the rest.

That is after all, what makes this place different than all the rest. We don't learn to communicate with each other, we learn to love each other first...

Hang in there, L4!

The scary part is past; now comes the hard part...

Mark

I would advise you to listen to the poster's who instructed you to accept the nasty words today in order to save your marriage tomorrow.

What you are hearing are just words from someone whom you wounded so badly he does not know what else to do. They are JUST words, you committed ACTS against him. You need to take it until he is finished. That time will come rather quickly in my experience.

If my FWW set some 'boundry' that I couldn't express my disgust, anger, hurt and pain, she would have ended up at the curb.

I'd suggest you take the majority advice here.

I'm glad Mark jumped in and said this because I honestly have no clue how to deal with the verbal abuse at the level your H is at right now. I agree you do your very best to control your half and hopefully he will come around.

LC

For the record, I don't condone verbal abuse and it does sound like it was an issue before the affair in some ways. That said, that can't be the primary focus right now.

L4, you only have control over your actions not your husband's. While Angry Outbursts (AOs) are Love Busters for sure, his anger is something he has to take control of. And if you resist his being angry right now by defending your actions during the affair in terms of his reaction to it, then his anger will not dissipate but will grow.

What I suggest is doing things the MB way from your side of the equation and see if he doesn't follow along. If he doesn't, then address those things one at a time. In other words, don't try to fix him, fix yourself and let him be attracted to you so that he wants to fix himself.

If serious abuse issues continue, then deal with them in an appropriate way. Just don't ever attempt to justify your affair in terms of his verbal abuse or anything else he might have done or not have done. THAT will stop him from recovery faster than anything else. It will keep him stuck in constant triggers and the result will be a divorce or a bad relationship with lots of stress and serious issues for as long as it lasts.

As much as you want to "move forward" with this, only you can move right now. He is still processing and it will probably take a couple of years to do it completely. Just don't ever compare him to your affair partner or try to make your affair the result of his choices or actions. It takes a special kind of understanding of the human nature to get over those that frankly, most will never have. Most people will respond to those things in predictable manner. They will be hurt, lash out in anger and make things worse.

Learn about ENs and LBs and do that work for a couple of weeks and then see if he is still stuck. If so, then other actions need to happen.

If he begins to show signs of physical abusiveness, leave and get to safety at once. If your saftey is in jeopardy, protect yourself first.

If he is venting, try to let him do so within reason.

Mark

Hey LC,

Docp is probably the ONLY BS in the entire world who reacted like he did...... without the prolonged nasty lashing out. Come to think about it, so did I, but only after D-Day #1, and only because I was doing a happy dance because my then-WH was giving me the "out" I had been seeking for decades.

After D-day #2 & #3, I said words I didn't even know I knew. I threw things, I took him off our joint bank account, I nearly drove my car into a bridge abutment.

WH took it, even though it escalated to my being suicidal after #3. (Then he took me to the doctor and made an appt. for himself.)

Docp must have had some sort of venting outlet somehow, somewhere. OR he is one truly amazing person.

Have you guys ever discussed how/if his reaction might have been different had you and FOM had gone from an EA to a PA, even if just once?

I can't imagine what I would have done had my WH met OW and acted out their phone/email sentiments physically.

L4, like LC admitted, I don't know your BH's pain level, but by reading here on MB I see the same patterns of intense anger after D-Day that almost always subsides with time. How long will differ for each BS.

Like Mark and all have said, just take it for now. When it gets to be too much, journal like LC said but do NOT lash back.

Vent here, too. We'll all be here for you.

Still praying for you,
Ace

L4,

You are getting some great advice here and from some of the best. I thought I would chime-in to add my own experience, as a BH, and let you know that I reacted very similar to your H. In a short time, however, I came to realize that our M was worth fighting for and I found this site. While no one can predict the future, I can remind you that there is hope.

You are getting plenty of responses to your thread. In fact, I have not seen so much activity on one thread in the Recovery section in quite some time. Do you know why? What you are doing is rare. It takes a special kind of person to admit their mistakes, take responsibility for their actions, and implement a plan to make things right. To quote Randy Pausch, "There are three parts of a true apology: 1) I am sorry; 2) It was my fault; 3) How do I make it better?"


Right back at ya. Hang tough - you are walking the right path.

- Sh0cked

PS - If you need some extra inspiration, see Randy Pausch's "last lecture" here.

Maybe I didn't make myself as clear as I should have. I don't think you need to "just take it" from him when he lashes out. Simply do not lash out in return. Do not make it about his behavior rather than the pain of the affair. That would only invalidate his pain which will prolong it and make it more intense.

You can have boundaries regarding protecting yourself from verbal abuse. Enforcement of those boundaries could include saying (respectfully, even in face of his disrespect) that you cannot continue the conversation with the direction it is taking. Then attempt to change the subject (Hey, what do you want for dinner?) or leave the room. Do this calmly and with control over your own emotions. Save the melt down that is sure to come until you are alone or on here to vent. Just don't return nastiness for nastiness. The argument ends when one of you does not say the next thing to come into your mind.

And any time you say "I'm sorry" be sure it is not followed by the word "but..." When he expresses his pain, say "I'm sorry..." Never say "I'm sorry, but if you had..." It will only make it worse in the long run.

But you don't have to just stand there and let him beat you up, physically or verbally. Just don't defend yourself by swinging back. If he becomes even more abusive, don't storm out of the house and slam the door, but do go someplace for a while (tell him exactly where you are going and go nowhere else - need to begin rebuilding trust as well) and give him time to cool off (and let yourself cool down as well.)

If when he rants you rant back, you'll forever be stuck in a cycle of he said/she said and nothing constructive will come about until that cycle gets broken.

Mark

In an earlier post, Mark said:


I need to clarify what I meant by "just take it for now", too.

Within reason is different for most but you'll know if it becomes close to physical abuse.

Don't take physical abuse. Get out like Mark said.

But if he is saying things out of anger that are not true, suck it up for the moment and do not try to refute him. He will most likely realize he needs to apologize later. He'll need to do that on his own. Well, at least that's how it worked for us. I tried to inflict as much verbal pain on my WH as I could. But he let me vent and it subsided within time. (Then I felt horrible and apologized.)

ETA Mark's suggestions will work, too.

Still praying for you.

Ace

Ace and Mark,

I think we are all trying to say the same thing, but are saying it differently.

I agree she needs to listen to him vent, but there has to be a point she needs to be able to walk away for a break or whatever.

Ace,

I will answer your questions in a bit. I am going to start a thread vs jacking this one. It's going to be a loooong story.

LC

Just to clarify a few things that may have become confused during the course of this thread...

Sorry to disappoint you, Ace, but the affair was a physical one, one encounter and therefore was a PA. We live two timezones apart and developed the A online and through phone conversations. Before then we had been friends through work for several years. It was about 2+ months into it when we were in the same town that we made it physical. It was a month after that that the two of us ended it. One month further along that the OMW's learned of the PA and the three of us agreed no contact was the only way. The affair did not happen while my H and I were in counseling. The PA happened from February - May. My BH and I started counseling the last week of August. So to clarify the timeline: I had been asking for counseling since January '06. The A happened Feb '08 - May '08. I have been in personal counseling since April '08. I revealed the A to my therapist the end of June after I had an anxiety attack. The OM and I went no contact a few days later. My BH and I started couples counseling (a different therapist) the end of August. Our couples therapist learned of the A in late September. I confessed the A October 26.

Our MC never encouraged me to keep it secret. At the time, because my H was traveling a lot, he said I could do what I wanted for now, but that the A would have to be revealed in order to truly move forward. And the sooner the better. When I called the MC last week and said that I was going to do it (thanks to everyone's encouragement here), he endorsed the move.

Regardling the children, we'll talk with them tonight and let them know that we're are working on some grown-up things that might mean one of us has to be away from the house for short periods of time but that we will return home. Of course we'll remind them how much we love them.

Thank you very much for your input on the verbal abuse. Our MC said yesterday (the session that I attended alone) that that needs to stop soon. My H has every right to be angry and to yell, but the time frame for hurling the kind of things he's been throwing is limited if we are to have any kind of positive relationship down the road. He stated that in order for our M to make it, my H will have to eventually do two things: Stop the verbal abuse (which has been going on for years, just not at this level) and he will have to clearly look at his roles in the marriage problems that existed before and since the A. He said that in order for our M to have a chance, I will have to forever accept responsibility for the A, I can never blame my H for my having the A, and I too, have to look at my roles in the marriage problems that existed before and after the betrayal. Throughout everything though, we have to keep the children's BEST interests in mind among all of this. The MC also warned me that I will become a target for some and how I cope with the attacks is up to me. I can't control what others will think of me, I can only control my feelings and actions. And only I know the reality of what happened and what is happening now.

I know my H has told his mother and his best friend -- who is also a good friend of mine. The best friend's wife can be a gossip so it's possible my infidelity is now well known throughout our former hometown. But I know I can't worry about that -- that's a consequence of my actions that I knew would result from my confession. I hope my H will soon also seek guidence from our pastor, our MC, this site, or other sources that have lived this horrible experience or are professionally trained in how to work through it.

What I have to do now is exactly what Mark1952 suggested and that's work on myself utilizing MB. I am very familiar with the Basic Concepts, Love Busters, and filled out an EN form quite a while ago. I need to keep practicing the truths found on this website, read the books, continue to be transparant to my H, show my genuine remorse for that I did, and work like crazy. Right now he wants nothing to do with getting help from anyone or anything else. Maybe we'll come out of this together, maybe we won't. Right now the only thing that is certain is that time is needed and I have to do what I can do.

Hi L4,


Not sure what I may have said to indicate I thought it was only an EA...maybe speaking from LC's perspective that their EA stopped short of intercourse so it too technically was a PA.

Don't worry about disappointing me, L4. Actually I did get a little anxious for you when he kicked you out and you weren't able to update us for a few days, but you did NOT disappoint me or anyone else here.

Remember, I said you are one courageous woman. I will repeat it again. YOU ARE ONE COURAGEOUS WOMAN. Even if you disappointed me (which you didn't) it really doesn't matter.

What matters is you, your H, your children and your family's recovery. We're all here to help you.

(But now I see that LC posted about why her BH was so calm so I'll check back with ya later. !)

Ace

You're getting such good advice, I dont' really have anything to add. I just wanted to underscore that you are, indeed, one brave woman. AND, best of all, you are now living a life of integrity, and you have paid a dear price for it. Hold your head up high.

L4, I see you 've been getting some good advice here. I want to applaud you for standing up with integrity and telling your H the truth. I also think your MC is on the right track.

Please keep posting and venting to us and not your H. After a week or two it should be clear if he is going to become more abusive or start to do the hard work of recovery. We are here for you and rooting for you.

LC, I don't know what kind of verbal abuse you suffered b4 the PA. I can only offer experience from my own sitch. I never abused my wife, verbally or physically. But after I found out about her cheating, I called her every name in the book. I mean names you probably never heard.

I accused her of every immoral sexual act with every man including the freaking paperboy! Was this logical? NO! But the pain is soooo intense that you lash out to hurt the one who hurt you.

This lasted until she was honest with me. Then I calmed down and realised I wanted my marriage. If I wanted my marriage, how could I keep talking about my wife peeling off her panties and calling her a cheap wh0re? Logically, I couldn't. If I thought those things we were done.

The pain ebbed. I realized I wanted to keep my marriage. You can't keep your marriage if you continue to verbally abuse your wife. Otherwise you have to justify why you stay married to someone who you consider less than human.

I must be an anamoly. When I confronted my wife about her first affair, I didn't yell, scream, verbally abuse her or anything like that. She said ILYBNILWY, and I calmly told her to pack 3 days worth of clothes and leave my house. She broke down crying and vomiting and begging for another chance. I didn't have the benefit of MB advice, but I laid out a bunch of criteria for recovery.

As you can see from my sig, she never really committed to recovery. She never read the books I got (or at least never wanted to talk about them), resisted everything from MB that I tried to show her, and only went to counseling because she had to. After 15 months of withholding the truth from me, she decided to blame me for our lack of recovery so she could justify her deployment boyfriend. She just lacked the courage to really address the affair like a mature adult.

Maybe I should have yelled at her and called her names.

Hey L4,

How's it going?

Ace

Well... I've been better.

I went back home yesterday. He gave me his wedding ring but also told me he loves me. He is soooo hurt. He started running through all the men in our lives (including my best friend's husband) asking if I've slept with them. He pulled up a suspicious encounter from 16+ years ago (2.5 years before we were married) and asked me if anything was going on there. I instinctively said no (WHY?!) but revealed it's truthfulness today -- that yes I did have a brief fling with that man. He's so angry with me. So angry. As he should be.

I know he's crying, hurt, angry, shaking, and feels zero trust for me now. Two days ago he said he thinks he wants to stay married, then last night he started throwing hurtful things my way that scared me again. I told him I will answer any questions about the A and anything having to do with us, but that I don't deserve what he's saying about my future behaviour in very derogatory terms. I left the room. He came and got me and apologized for what he said. Then we continued the discussion more appropriately. One moment he'll talk to me about my "next relationship" as if we're getting divorced, then later he'll talk about what he needs from me for us to move on, as if he wants to stay with me. I'm not pressing him either way. He said he hasn't contacted a lawyer, and I haven't either. He doesn't trust that I haven't (that's warranted), but I haven't.

We did have a moment last night when I finally lost it. I just broke down sobbing, seeing him hurting like that. I've been trying to be strong through this for him, so he can lean on me, but I just lost it last night. He came to me and held me as I told him over and over that I'm sorry.

My father called him shortly afterward and told my H that he is still part of the family and that whatever he needs, he can ask my parents for help. I also called my H's mom last night and she was amazing. She admitted to me that she also once made a mistake and that she loves me and forgives me. She also begged me to fight for this marriage.

I'm at a coffee shop now, agreeing that I will not be home during the day as my H works from there.

He contacted the OMW a few days ago and they have been corresponding. The OM and his wife are 4 months ahead of us in dealing with the betrayal. I haven't seen any of the emails they've exchanged and I don't know if I care too. (I'm sure the content about me is not too favorable.) I'm sure the OMW is reeling having to relive the affair again after having processed through it these many months. But she is being very generous with my H and if they can help each other, then that's good. I've been wanting to write her a letter expressing my sincerest apologies since she learned about the A. But I have never sent what I've written out of respect for her -- trying to stay completely out of her life. My H says that the OMW might appreciate hearing my regrets, but I'm not sure about that.

He said he hates that he has to drag things out of me. I said I don't know what he wants to know and what he doesn't want to know. There were two times last night I was saying something when he interupted and said, "I don't want to know," so I'm having troubles with what to share and not. I told him he has to ask me what he wants to know.

I bought a couple of Dr. Harley's books and have printed numerous articles from here. I want them available for me and in case he ever changes his mind and wants to get help. I know he had a brief conversation with our pastor that he had to censor as our kids were in the room.

My husband asked me if I love him. Two weeks ago when he asked me the same thing I answered him truthfully -- no. And as I stated in my original post, I don't believe I do. I mean, how do you betray someone you love like I did? There's no way I can love him if I'm capable of doing that. I've turned down other advances in the past because I was happily married. I didn't this one because I wasn't happily married. And if I wasn't, I must not be in love, right? But then I've been given clearance from him to walk away (just like you, Ace) and I haven't done that. So maybe I do love him?

He said if we are to stay together I have to change my ways of how I interact with me. I told him I believe I interact with men as I do women, but then maybe I do flirt more. He's never mentioned this to me before. I said if we stay together we must go back to counseling because we both obviously need changes from each other.

Anyway... We're still fresh into this so I'm still in a daze. Don't know exactly what to do or say or where we'll be. I don't regret telling and trust all of you that this will get better. The hole is as deep as it gets now so I'm hoping soon someone will throw me a rope. Or at least some water until the rope arrives. It will come, right?

Looking4,

Believe it or not you are making progress. You are back home and talking. I am really glad to read he did get himself in check and proud of you for the way you handled the situation. Good for you. I know it's rough, you are doing what you need to do. I don't see anything wrong with breaking down, sometimes it's inevitable. I sure did many times. I also spent quite a bit of time crying behind a closed door. Keep being supportive to your H and keep learning about MB.


Why not write something, show it to your H and ask him to send it for you? I apologized to my FOM's DH and she did appreciate it.

LC

Wow, L4, you are doing great. You are trying to be there for him and have established personal boundaries. It is important to remember that it is actions, not words, which are important now.

And so begins the rollercoaster of recovery. This is to be expected.

Excellent job! Enforcing boundaries.

Many BS would kill for this. It shows your sincerity and it also shows he still cares about you.

You are truly blessed to have this kind of support.

This makes me very nervous – many an RA (revenge affair) started this way. It is you, not her, that should try and meet his ENs.

L4, it sounds like a seed is there. I really believe with 15 hours per week and other MB concepts, love can blossom. You obviously care as does he.

In all, this looks very promising. It may not feel like it now but I believe there is plenty of potential. Who knows – as it is in my case, this may turn out to be the best (and worst) thing for your marriage.

- Shocked

Is this your second affair?!

look4

What's the deal with 16 years ago?

Sure, but MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than his anger is the fact that you were truthful with him, despite the fact that you knew the truth would hurt him. Painful honesty is something a person can cope with. A person can not cope with lies because they never know where things stand. Their mind makes them crazy with wondering. They doubt people around them, and they doubt themselves because obviously they're a poor judgment of character and truth. Your coming clean was a HUGE gift for him and a very positive thing for you to do.

His world is on end. He can't think straight. He doesn't know what he wants except he wants all this to not be true. That's normal and if he weren't waffling I'd be concerned. Just give him time (don't you hate that? everything takes so darned much time!).

Some BS *never* get to hear their WS say they're sorry. Don't worry about breaking down crying in front of your BH. The things to avoid are angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, independent behavior, and the other LBs. I don't recall teary remorse in that list


Be very careful of this. It's fine for her to corroborate what you say, and for her to keep an eye on OM just as your WH is surely keeping an eye on you... but they don't need to be turning to one another for relief in their emotional pain. I don't know how you could tell him this, though. The last thing in the world he'll want to hear is advice from you on how to avoid an affair.

Just keep an eye on it and keep posting here about it, and if our collective radar goes off we'll come up with something brilliant. We usually do.

Have you ever driven by an accident, or road kill, and your mind had an unreasonable desire to see how bad it was, but you knew if you looked you'd be sick? Multiply that by... a LOT. Your BH's imagination and fear are running wild. He wants to hear the truth, and he needs to. Hearing it brings it out in the open, makes it not taboo, makes it lose its power. But it's very hard to hear. Just go with the flow. Answer his questions and when he asks you to stop, stop. Don't say "But you just ASKED me (you moron)!" That would be counter-productive

One thing that might help is, when he asks you a question and you think the answer might be particularly upsetting, is to pause and ask him "Are you sure you want to hear this?" He may decide that no, he doesn't need those details. Or he may decide he does - but he'll be braced for the news.

Remember, your willingness to be honest despite your shame and embarrassment, and despite knowing it will hurt, is a very very big gift. Honesty and openness is the foundation of a strong marriage, and because you are able to be completely honest with him I think you have a strong chance for a great recovery.

Please explain this to him. He's probably thinking he can never be good enough, handsome enough, witty enough, tall enough, rich enough... and on and on and on. When he knows that your "I dn't love you" is a logical conclusion drawn from "If I treated you like that, how could I love you?" then he will feel much better. The focus becomes your remorse (good) rather than his imagined inadequacies.

Hmm... this might just be his pain talking or there might be something to it. I will say that in a marriage with proper boundaries, the wife does not EVER say or do anything that she wouldn't do in front of her husband. Most here would agree that the wife should never spend any time alone with another man - not even a business lunch or an appointment with the interior designer. First of all, if there are always three people, you'll never start down that slippery slope. Secondly, people will never have reason to talk and your spouse will never have reason to doubt or fear.

Can't you see it? You're already weaving your own rope. And it's a good, strong, reliable one. You just need practice.

L4,

Men have very long memories for suspected infidelity, I mentioned to my wife the other day about the time a preacher put his hands on her shoulder, entirely innocently by the way. She had no recollection of that event, but I could remember the sermon he gave that day in 1985. IMHO men, at least myself, make a mental catalog of potential threats to their mates.

Oh and the time when I was 15 and my 15 year old girl friend cheated on me with a 23 year old guy, only have his first name, but am still working on it. Not really but still a strong memory.

This might explain your H long list of suspects.

God Bless
NJ

Summer of 1992... My boyfriend (future H) and I were living together at the time. I had a fling. It was nothing about love. In fact, today I still have no idea why I did it. I was in a deep funk at the time, working two waitress jobs, not sure what I wanted... It was a dark time and that's pretty much all I remember about that era of my life. My future H suspected something and said he didn't like the guy and could tell something was up, but I was so into myself and my darkness, I don't know that I cared what anyone thought. The other guy (not married) and I were sexually togther a few times -- maybe 4 or 5. I had no emotional connection to him. I woke up one day, realized I loved my boyfriend with all my heart and wanted to be with him forever. I cut the other guy off -- not answering the phone (the days before caller ID) and not calling him. I internally committed completely to my boyfriend and made other affirmations to fix my life and that was that. As much as I wanted to tell, I knew he'd leave me forever. And I didn't want that. So I didn't tell him. I never told anyone, not even my closest friends until this past February when I told the OM about it (the OM from earlier this year that I've been totally focusing on here). Turns out my H emailed the OM from and asked him if he knew of any other infidelities in my life. (My H assumed correctly that we would share that info with each other since we were both openly cheaters with each other anyway.) The OM said I admitted to him of having a brief encounter before we were married. My H asked me if I had and I revealed. That's the whole, messed up story of that.

Bet that changes your opinion of me now.

My H said tonight he feels more horribly about the cheating I did 16 years ago before we were married. He said if he had of known then, he would have never married me. So he says his last 16 years -- the prime of his life -- have been wasted. I didn't try too hard, but made a weak attempt to remind him that we have had many great times up until recently, but he doesn't care. He says now that he thinks hard, he doesn't think that I ever really loved him. And that I only care enough to suit my needs. (This is SO untrue.) We have been rocky for a few years and really rocky this last year or so, but up until late August, he showed little interest in fixing us. Now that he knows of my lies, he's saying it was all me putting nothing into us.

My head is a blur. Last night he seemed at least still on the fence about our future. Tonight... He won't even look at me. He doesn't know who I am and apparently never did. I said I'm the one who loved you and who wanted to be with you forever. He says because of me, he's wasted his life.

I can't stop crying. I don't know what to do. I've always felt like I'm a good person. But the things he's bringing up now... Looking at it from his vantage point... Heck, even just from my vantage point I'm a cold-hearted, self-centered b**ch. I don't know if I'll be able to recover. Let alone if we can recover. Heck, at this point, I'll just pray for him to recover. It's the least I can hope for him.

Our (my FWW and I) experience is quite similar to yours, except that she told me about the A, and she'd actually given up her virginity to OM1 while we were still a couple (but before we were M'd). For over a year after her second, and much worse, A, every day I questioned my decision to stay with her and get M'd, rather than opting out, and sometimes I still think about it from time to time.

In your case, your H is probably quite angry that he did not know that information about you at a time it would have been most relevant. I can however quite understand what is going through your H's mind. Realise that he's not just questioning you, but also his own judgment, and perhaps much more so.

I'm not sure what to suggest at this point, but hopefully the above helps in some way.

Looking4

L4,

Your conscience has probably been in overload mode. I experienced the same when my then-WH decided he may as well come clean about the EA he started 6 years prior, but didn't like the sound of her voice on their first phone call so he never called her back and thought he could hide it from me forever.

I would have never found out. I was sad and glad. Sad that he was able to hide it from me but glad that he told me about it without having to. (Your case is a little different since OM told your H, but it's the same hurt for you and my WH.)

L4, you may not have thought it important back then, but as you now see, it's festered in you all these years and now given your H something to feel even more betrayed about.

This does not change how I feel about you if you are now willing to confess all and come clean.......as long as you are sincere.

This is all a shock to both of your systems, L4 and both of your reactions are typical, so I've heard. Maybe I've heard wrong, but I still think there's hope for you as long as you're both willing to do the work. It will take months and maybe even years to overcome but it is possible.

I think there are some personal questionnaires on this web site regarding your personal history, including sexual encounters. If you fill in the blanks, it will help jog your memory so you can be completely clean with him, even before he asks you if there are any more things you may have forgotten or not thought were important to tell him.

Keep posting, L4 and we'll all help you through this as long as you want to recover your marriage (or personally recover if your H chooses not to try). I pray that he will eventually. Realize that it's normal for him to vacillate from day to day or even moment to moment.

Still praying for you, L4.

Ace

looking4

"I don't know what to do. I've always felt like I'm a good person. But the things he's bringing up now... Heck, even just from my vantage point I'm a cold-hearted, self-centered b**ch. I don't know if I'll be able to recover."

You don't have to label yourself. Good people have made bad decisions. Bad people won't admit that they were wrong.

"As MIM said "Our (my FWW and I) experience is quite similar to yours, except that she told me about the A, and she'd actually given up her virginity to OM1 while we were still a couple (but before we were M'd). For over a year after her second, and much worse, A, every day I questioned my decision to stay with her and get M'd, rather than opting out, and sometimes I still think about it from time to time.

In your case, your H is probably quite angry that he did not know that information about you at a time it would have been most relevant."

This is a point that point I was going to bring up. That a WW must tell her future H before they get married that she had an affair while dating him. For the very reason that if his future W had an affair and that would be a deal breaker and he would not of gotten married. He was kept from the information that and his decision to not marry her.

This only has to make the BH angry. But in all fairness to history no BH can say with one hundred percent certainty what they would of happened back then. What is important was that your silence took away his decision to stay or walk away.



Your actions neutered him. This is why there is a new level of anger. Others have been able to recover from this. Some not. You just have to keep working and let time heal.



Maybe he would of still married you after being told, and he would of never changed. Maybe he would of changed to watch you like a hawk. Realize that you needed and insist you needed to change and have stronger boundaries to prevent future affairs. Maybe you wouldn't of changed.

I have been reading your story for several days and kept getting the feeling that there was a Paul Harvey moment (The Rest of the Story) in here somewhere.

Now that we've seen that moment, it appears that your BH may know you much better than you know yourself (or are willing to admit to yourself).

Looking4,

Are you working with an individual counselor besides with your couples couselor? If not, IMO you should be. You need to find out the reasons you keep straying. The best gift I ever game myself was the gift of therapy. I learned how to dig deep into myself to see my unhealthy patterns and behaviors. Then I learned how to change them.

You also, understandably, sound very down. You may consider talking to your doctor about anti-depressants. If you get depressed things will feel even more magnified than they are.

Your happiness and healing is just as important as your H's. You need to work on yourself along with working on your marriage.

LC

L4,

If you remember nothing else in all of this, remember that ANY lie you tell now will be another nail in the coffin of your marriage.

You simply cannot lie anymore about anything and recover anything that remotely resembles a marriage...

Even volunteering the truth later, even seconds later is like making that first confession all over agin to your husband.
It doesn't reinforce your ability to tell the truth in his eyes but rather reinforces his belief that you are incapabl;e of telling the truth unless cornered.

You just simply can't lie to him if you want to remain married...

Mark

I know, Mark. And I knew that. It's the stupidest, most idiotic thing. This whole time -- this WHOLE time while I've been struggling about confessing the (now clarifying) 2nd A -- I never once thought what I did a few years before we were married was even relevant. I am in individual counseling and have been for 7 months now. I thought I had told the therapist my deepest, darkest, dirtiest secrets and yet I never even told him about that cheating. I sound like I'm playing you, but seriously, I never gave it a second thought until my H brought it up Sunday. How could I have neglected that deceitful act I did, not even mentioning it here to all of you? You who have an understanding for this kind of thing. The fact that he pulled out that suspicion from back then... And why did I instinctively lie about that one, but nothing else? Every question he asked me (and there were ones that I knew were going to kill him), I answered. I answered them truthfully and in as much detail as he said he needed. So WHY did I think I didn't need to confess to that? I mean, really??? Have I learned nothing? Why is it when it comes to work, church, my friends, and family, I cannot and do not lie? How is it I take the daggers and the blame in every other facet of my life and move on? How come with the man I supposedly love more than anyone I can't trust him to handle the truth when it comes to us?

It's been like an epiphany. I am a cheater. I was 16+ years ago and I am now. I didn't think it was possible but I feel ignorant, cold-hearted, and as thoughtless as one can -- characteristics that I thought were foreign to me.

So last night was all over the place. He's sure he's leaving and he feels the last 16+ years (his prime years, he says) have been a complete joke. He says he's done. That he feels duped and that I've never loved him anyway. Then he'll say something like "If we make it through this, I don't want to be with the old L4. But then I don't want a new L4 either." He says mean things like only losers will want to be with me because of my mild deformities. That he's pretty sure he needs to take a paternity test. He'll say that he's jealous of the next man who will get to live with the ethical L4, the one he had to sacrifice his life to mold. Then he'll turn and say he's sorry that I'm hurting too and that we're in this together.

For the first time since Sunday's confession, we slept together last night. We held each other throughout the entire evening. Something we haven't done in... Years and years and years. And then this morning he said he hopes he didn't give me the wrong idea, because the little voice inside his head says he'll never be happy again with me. That I never loved him in the first place. And that he will never trust me with his heart. And therefore he can't stay with me.

So now I'm waiting. Waiting for him to tell me if he wants to leave or try. I'm prepared for the worst. But then again, maybe that's what I want. I know the worst is what I deserve, and I don't think I want that. But maybe through my selfish, uncaring actions... Maybe deep down in my subconsciousness, in my cold heart, it's what I want.

It's one heck of a brutal way to make someone not want me.

L4,

I know his words hurt and I know you believe much of what he says.

Believe what he does next, not what he says...


Let him vent until he is done.


The above applies to finding out your spouse has had an affair as much as it does to the loss of a child. Some who have experienced both have said that the former hurt more than the latter.

He's hovering between steps 1 & 3 right now, passing through step two while going back and forth.

With a little luck and time and with understanding and help from you, he should move forward, though it will take a while.

Keep letting him know you are sorry for what you did, even more so about the lies and that you want to make him number one in your life and that you are fully committed to him for the future.

Don't keep bringing it up, but don't avoid it when he needs to talk about it.

If he shows signs of wanting to recover your marriage, see if he would be willing to read Surviving An Affair by Dr Harley. You might benefit from it as well.

Other books you might want to read are His Needs/Her Needs, Love Busters and/or Fall In Love Stay In Love all by Dr Harley and Torn Asunder by Dave Carder.

It will take serious effort on your part for him to ever trust you again. It will only happen by your being trustworthy in all that you do. Extraordinary precautions must be put into place to protect your own weaknesses and to demonstrate your willingness to make things right going forward. Begin practicing PORH and POJA and have no secret life apart from him.

This is really how a marriage should be not just one broken by infidelity. Unfortunately it often takes an affair by one or the other to see that it should be such.

Your night last night is a good sign, IMO. That is why I say to examine what he does more than what he says. He wants a divorce only if he seeks one actively. Even initial filing does not prove it is what he really wants.

This will take time to repair if it can be done at all. You didn't get to this point overnight and won't get to where you need to be overnight either.

Hang in there, L4. Keep posting and maybe someday he will be ready to come here himself. If he begins to buy into MB concepts, you might be able to really move forward together.

Mark

Your story is a living example of why Harley advocates historical honesty.

Your husband thought he was getting GIRL A when he married you .... but now finds out he actually got GIRL B because you were not historically honest from the beginning.

Your only chance is this: FALL ON YOUR SWORD

Tell H you now realize that he feels he's dealing with a "bait 'n switch" situation.

Tell H that you will never again try to hide the truth from him because you realize you were not trying to protect him. That was a lie you told yourself so you could paint a prettier picture of who you were.

Tell H that you will never lie by omission again. He will get the honest full truth, even if it is painful.

Tell H he has a right to know who his wife really is.

It's your only chance to earn his trust back.
This is not about love, it is all about trust.

Marriage can survive affairs.
A marriage built on dishonesty is NOT a "safe sanctuary" for either spouse.

Most of us want safe a sanctuary.

Offer the paternity test.
Just the fact that you offer will probably help him feel like you're focused on honesty and truth now.

L4, how are you holding up?

Barely holding let alone up, Sh0cked. I lost my job back in July and while I hate being unemployed and it's tough financially for us, it was probably the best thing for me so I could focus on getting my life in order -- and hopfully our marriage.

I'll try to type more tomorrow as these last few days have been so intense and I need to go to bed. Since I confessed I have felt like I'm living an outer body experience (and goodness knows I wish I was), yet simultaneously it's the most real I've felt in so very long. Many horrible and deeply painful things have come of this, and yet also some good things. I'll share more later. I'm still just so tired.

Thanks for asking.

Looking4,

I'm glad to read that amongst all the bad there is some good. How are your kids doing through all of this?

I know it's hard to stand up some days, but you will find the strength. Early on in rebuilding I typed this phrase out and read it over and over to myself "What doesn't kill us makes us stronger". I also believe God gives us what he thinks we can handle, but admit there were many days I was sure He over estimated me. I was wrong I had more strength than I ever knew existed and I suspect you do to.

Keep our chin up.

LC

I do believe that I have been over estimated by God, but you are right about being stronger than you ever knew you were, I guess it comes down to being alone with the children or trying to stay together and being together for the children and some day being there for each other again.

I look forward to your update. You got guts, lady, and I think that in time you will feel good about coming clean. IMHO, this is a chance for you to "start over" and do things right.

I have a busy day but will check-in on your thread when I can.

- Sh0cked

Today is our 14-year wedding anniversary. Needless to say, we are not celebrating.

Last Friday my H asked me to join him back in our bed. Then the morning came and it was back to the anger, the tears, and the questions. I took the kids with me to my parents last weekend and he sent me emails saying he couldn't forgive me, that we were done, and that I needed to move back into the guest room. I got back Sunday night and we talked into the wee hours of morning. We went to sleep in each other's arms, but he left sometime later and went back to the other bed.

He keeps stating that he thinks he could get past the affair of this year because he can see how our marriage was failing anyway, and feels like the OM was a predator who took advantage of my vulnerabilities. (Though he can't believe how stupid I was to have let that happen. And he's not letting me off the hook. As he shouldn't.) But he says he can't get over the one I had two years before we married. He says that one hurts more because he knows he would not have married me if he had known and he wouldn't be here now, wallowing in so much pain and confusion. The pre-marriage one is really really killing him. He wants answers about it and I'm trying very hard to remember, but it was so long ago, I was depressed, I didn't care about that OM, and it's been very hard providing him the concrete answers he needs. That of course isn't helping. But as I keep telling him and telling myself, I have nothing more I could possibly lose, so I have no reason to hide anything. I've been the most open I've ever been to anyone. I've offered to get the paternity test, get him addresses and phone numbers, tell him all the details or nothing... Whatever he wants. But that one consumes him.

It's so emotional because in bringing up these things from 16+ years ago and coupling them with what I did this year... How could I be this person? The one from long ago was a straight up fling where I didn't care about the OM, anyone else, nor even myself. I was on a self-destructive path. The one this year was because I did want to be loved and I thought the OM and I deeply cared for each other. How can I be this person who has so little respect for my husband? How can I be so selfish? I'm the person who stops and takes care of complete strangers, yet I'm capable of doing hurtful things to the man I love. Not once... But twice. I soooo don't want to be this person. And unfortunately it's too late to not be this person with my H. The damage, he tells me, is done.

But then there was yesterday... We had it out. He said all the mean things again. (He works from home so we can talk anytime.) Then he shared with me deep feelings and things I didn't know. He has immense pain. Yet he is still attracted to me. But he can't get over what I've done. He wishes he never married me. But he's also proud of my accomplishments with my career and our children. He's all over the map. I ended up in the guest bed curled up like a baby for hours. I finally couldn't hold it together for him any more. He crawled into the bed with me and held me, missing conference calls and getting behind on his work. He said he'll be strong for both of us. He said I can't get my hopes up by his actions reaching out for me, that he still feels he can't stay with me. But that he can't stand to see me hurting as I am. I don't deserve his sympathy. But I haven't felt that close to him since our son was born over 7 years ago.

He asked me why I haven't asked for his forgiveness. I said because I don't deserve it. I'd rather he offer it if he so chooses. He said he knows God has forgiven me, my family and even his mother have forgiven me, but yes, he doesn't know if he'll be able to.

The last 10 days I've watched deep pain and I have felt unbelievable shame. And yet I haven't felt closer to my husband in years. Among all the injury we've uncovered, he is showing genuine kindness, dignity, and concern for me -- unlike I've ever seen from him for this duration. It's perverse because I fell for the OM thinking I was leaving my H, and now I want to have and keep my H as my husband so badly.

Question for BSs: My H is encouraging me to send a letter to the OM's BW to reassure her that I will not be coming after her husband regardless of what happens to our marriage. I'm sure old doubts about my intensions have been resurrected since my H contacted her about knowing about the A. (The OM and his BW had their D-Day 4 months ago when she discovered an email from me.) My H feels I owe it to the BW -- to tell her that I'll remain out of their lives forever no matter what. I have written the letter and my H has read it. He says he'll email it to her for me. I think that if it gets sent at all, I should postal mail it to her. Then she can choose to return it to me unopened, or burn it, or read it over and over.

Those who have lived this... What do you think? ?

The kids are doing surprisingly well. We haven't said anything to them and we have kept up appearances. We all eat dinner together, do piano lessons, go to grandparents', did trick-or-treating... I'm crying a lot and try to keep that away from them, but when they catch me, I explain I'm sad about something or just tired and not to worry. I know kids are very intuitive, but they seem to be rolling along okay right now.

That's one thing... My H says as much as he wishes he had known about my pre-marital A so he would not have married me, he says he can't imagine not having our two kids. They bring us both so much joy.

L4,

I get the impression that your H considers you to be better looking than he is. I wonder if he always felt a degree of inferiority to you and this just pushes it over the edge.

God Bless
NJ

Interesting angle, newjersey... I am attractive I guess, but not gorgeous nor anything exceptional. Maybe that is affecting this. But he is good looking. He is a target of women and (to his chagrin) men when we're out. We have been told we're a good-looking couple. While I may be pleasant in the face, I'm not his ultimate because H has suggested to me on more than a few occasions that I should consider having my breasts enlarged -- having said this again just yesterday. He stated that he's been loving how I've been looking since I lost a bunch a weight last spring so maybe I should get my breasts fixed to go with the rest of my new "hot" body. I asked, "Why should I if you already think I'm hot?" He said because he thinks it'll help me with my self-esteem issues -- that I should do it for me. I've been small-chested all my life. I don't think having a bigger chest will solve my self-esteem problems.

L4,

Regardless of the eventual outcome, you have taken back your integrity.

Your story exemplifies exactly why honesty is so critical to a good marriage. Your husband feels like his entire life for the last 16 years has been a lie. While it is clear that he still wants you, he also clearly doen't know if he can get past this.

Is there any chance that he might be willing to come here and post on his own thread. I know that can be tricky because of the temptation to hash things out on the forums or to argue about things each other said on the forums, but I also know that he might benefit from discovering that other men have been through similar situations and have recovered.

Optionally, I offer him the opportunity to email me. I'm willing to be his sounding board or simply hear him vent. I don't check the email in my sig-line every day, but the offer is there if he wants to do it.

You are really going to need help in order to get through this and come out the other side happily married. A local MC might be an option if you can find one that either follows Dr Harley's methods or at least is pro-marriage. A pastor or other clergy that might have experince in this area might help as well.

The best investment you two could make might be a few phone sessions with Steve or Jennifer.

Based on some of what you say he has done in the past few days, it is obvious that he cares deeply for you. The fact that he sets aside his own pain to comfort you speaks volumes about what he values most. But if you can muster the strength to try to do the same for him it might help him as well.

It would be nice to have a time machine and to be able to go back and prevent what happened, but alas, that can't happen and the damage has been done.

I'm praying for you both.

Mark

L4,

Guess I was off the mark on that one, although I will say that people often have self perceptions very much at odds with how other people see them. Its often very surprising.

If he is considered good looking he might also be feeling a great deal of regret about all the times he turned women down to remain loyal. He may be feeling that his fidelity was a wasted effort.

God Bless
NJ

Not sure how I've done that. I believe I lost it a long time ago.

No. I've bought HNHN and LB and have other books. I've told him about MB, the forums, and suggested he try any discussion board he may be comfortable with. He says the problems are ours and ours alone. He doesn't need anyone else to tell him what to do.

Thank you, Mark1952.

We had been seeing a MC that we both really liked and who was about trying hard to stay together. But H said he won't go back any more -- at least not for quite a while, if ever. Our pastor knows everything and he recommends we see a MC too. But H says no. H says only he and I can figure out what's best for us, and only he can figure out what's best for him.

When he's held me through this, it's the safest I've felt in a very long time. I have been holding him too. Wiping his tears. Letting him vent. Encouraging him talk with whomever he wants to tell. Doing everything I can think of to comfort him. I want to be strong for him. Be completely there for him however I can. Or not at all if that's what he wants. There are times like today, however, where nothing is helping him.

Amen.

Thank you so much.

He has mentioned that several times... That he has had so many opportunities to be with many other women and he's never done that because of his promise to me. He says now that if he had known what I was capable of and that fidelity meant nothing to me, he would have. But that's not who he is. My husband can be really mean, but he would never do that to us. He would divorce me before he broke that vow. (Of course I used to think the same of myself before too.)

L4,

I think the fact that other people knew before he did is also a problem, OM1 and OM2 knew and I think you said you told others. Did he know OM1 from way back and did he have any interaction in the subsequent years with him?

Oddly too your H does not sound in the least bit vengeful towards OM's.

God Bless
NJ

He met OM1 one time before the PA, but never saw him after. Our paths have no reason to ever cross. No one knew about OM1 until I told OM2 about it -- when OM2 first approached me about his attraction to me and I denied him, stating that I had a fling many years ago, before I was married and couldn't do that again. (Was I even listening to myself?!) I didn't share any details with OM2. I then told my sister of OM1 a few months later, wondering if I should reveal it all these years later. They were the only two I ever told about OM1. My IC learned of OM2 after we went NC, and our MC learned of OM2 one week before I confessed. No other friends, family, co-workers... No one else knew of OM2 other than OM2 and his BW.

As for vengence, I know H thinks OM2 is a "scum-sucking predator" who "took advantage" of his vulnerable wife during a very low time in our relationship. He has zero regard for him. My H hates the OMs, but he rightfully does not hold them responsible. That's on me.

Hi L4,

Glad you've been interacting with your BH on this huge rollercoaster ride.

Regarding the OP, I am striving to have zero regards for OW, but have not arrived there yet....and it's been nearly 2 years since D-Day 4 and almost 27 months since verfiable NC for secret email contact.

Remember the opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. It will take your BH a little while ~ or a long time ~ to get there.

For us, the more we rebuild trust and keep each other's love banks full, the closer to indifference I get regarding OW. (FWH claims that the only time he thinks of her is when I mention the A/OW/triggers.)

I can't wait until the day I get there, but in the meantime, I am focusing on my FHW and our recovery.

Keep posting, L4....you're getting great advice, which will cushion the dips on this rollercoaster ride.

Ace

L4, hang in there. You are doing so well. I know I wish my DH had been so self-aware after our D-day. He's doing great now, but it's taking some time to learn the language of emotional intelligence.

And, about language, I just wanted to say again that your BH is saying all the things I was saying after D-day, almost word-for-word. I would call him and say I hated him and that I was ashamed that I even KNEW him, let alone produced children with him, that he had no soul. And then I would say that I hurt more than I ever had in my life and that I loved him. Some nights I would desperately need him to hold me.....I was wierdly attracted to him physically for a few months. The next day I would react like he'd burned me if he accidentally touched me in passing.

All of this is not to highlight that I'm nuts, but to highlight that I too had language troubles that I'm overcoming as we go along. It's incredibly dificult to say exactly just what it is that is racing through your mind at first. The highs are, in my opinion, kinda other-worldly and it's hard to trust that they are real. The lows are beyond anything that life might have prepared you for. What I was really meaning, I now see, was that I loved this man, I loved the family that we'd built and I was shaken to my core to see that I had become disposable to him.

I'm so sorry that the two of you are going through this. I'm very sorry to hear that he's not ready to reach outside for help yet, but keep offering, keep showing him the direction to go in. Absolutely keep going to counselling yourself.

I understand how hard this might be. I know that I wanted to go to MC with DH, but I only went once and then went through a long phase of feeling like I couldn't trust anyone, even a therapist, with what I was going through. Now I'm ready to go again, ready to begin trusting, but I absolutely cannot go with the therapist he was seeing before.....she knew about the EA (he didn't tell her that it had become a PA), and while I know that she had a professional obligation to keep that confidence, a little part of me will always blame her some, and certainly she is a trigger for me. We're looking for a new MC. Maybe in time this might be what your BH might need too. The place where you met before D-day to discuss your M and the person who knew before he did are powerful triggers.

Another thing; I now know that I ought to have continued therapy, and might have avoided emotional trauma if I had, but at the time, I was doing what made sense to me. The LAST person I wanted telling me "You should see a therapist" was my FWH. I don't have any answers for that. You are walking a tightrope, L4, and it's going to be that way for a while. Only after seeing my DH so worried about me as I lost our pregnancy could I FINALLY see that he cares for me. Six months after D-day, I finally believe that he wants, really wants me, marriage with me, more children with me, a life with me. You just have to be steady as a rock and stay constant.

I think about you a lot. Hope you pull through this, hope he sees the value of the soul-searching you have been doing. But it will be a while before he can hear your remorse the way we can....

Hope this helps.

Absolutely let your husband do with it as he sees fit. You have written it - offer to amend it so that he is completely happy with it, and then let HIM communicate it to OM's W if he thinks that is the prudent thing to do. He will feel safe with his own correspondence with them. I can't speak for your BH, of course, but from my own experiences and from everything I've read, he will feel VERY anxious about any correspondence you might have with them.

Because you are no longer living a lie. You have chosen the road of truth and honesty. The fact that it is such a painful road makes your reclamation of integrity even more worthy of recognition.

L4,

He met OM1 one time before the PA, but never saw him after. Our paths have no reason to ever cross. etc

Well that's good, at least he wasn't playing golf with him for the last 10 years. I have a Brother in law, who tried some funny business some time ago, with my then girl friend now wife and it is still hateful to look at him.

Does he regret that it would take some effort to beat him up since he is so far away now?

God Bless
NJ

Bingo!

L4, I have not commented lately because there are others here that are far more seasoned than I. From where I sit, however, Mark is right - Your H does show that he genuinely cares for you. The $25,000 question is if he can eventually get past the infidelity. I still firmly believe that the potential is there for you two to have a wonderful M.

I do think MC is necessary, however. It is not the counselor's job to tell him what to do; it is a "safe" place to discuss feelings and emotions. It will do him some good to use that forum as an outlet for his pain.

One other note, there is no quick fix. Everything is still fresh and it will take months before he starts to feel normal again. Unfortunately, he will continue to vacillate. I was completely worthless for 3 weeks and it took almost 6 months for me to get a grip on reality.

Are you able to spend any quality time together? It would be nice if you could go out, just the two of you, and find an activity you both like. My W and I did Racquetball; the exercise and healthy competition were helpful. Promise each other no A or R talks during that time.

Keep posting, L4, and keep doing what you are doing. It isn't easy but it is worth fighting for.

- Sh0cked

You actually made me smile with this, newjersey. Thanks. I have no idea where OM1 is now. I do believe If OM2 were within striking distance and not 2000 miles away that my H would want to find him and beat him up. OM2 is bigger so I don't know if H would actually go through with it, but I know my H would definitely want to.

Just re-reading my journey these last 11 days. Thank you _Ace_, Lifechoice, Mark1952, Turtlehead, mama2boys, newjersey, Sh0cked, Pepperband, ManInMotion, bigkahuna, TheRoad, ForeverHers, RookKev, star*fish, Enlightened_Ex, iam, Chrysalis, andrew3, MyRevelation, and Crushedat40. Y'all have been my lifeline.

Thank you.

L4, thank you! You are doing things that many betrayed desperately wish from their waywards. You offer hope to those that are suffering.

I do not know how this story will end but I can say that you are taking the high road. Take pride in your path. We are here for you.

- Sh0cked

L4,

OM2 is bigger so I don't know if H would actually go through with it, but I know my H would definitely want to.

Hopefully not bigger everywhere, as my Phillipono friend says women are looking for 666, 6 figure income, 6 inches and 6 foot. Not sure if that was originally a Tagalog saying or not.

God Bless
NJ

So, L4, what are you doing for fun? Are you able to find a diversion away from all the stress?

My H emailed my apology letter to the OM's W this morning. In it I spelled out what I was sorry for and why. I also reassured her that I do not want to correspond with her H and will not be contacting him or them again whatsoever.

My H did add commentary to the email that is bothering me. I had shared with H that I'm still very angry with the OM. The OM has apologized to his W and recently to my BH by email. But other than sending me a text about not loving me and wanting me to stay away from him (the NC message back in June), I've seen no remorse from him for crossing the line and taking me on this life-ruining journey. Yes, I'm a big girl and I take FULL responsibility for having the affair. And I don't know that I deserve an apology from the OM nor what it would even look like. So why am I still so mad at OM? I was spewing to my H about it two days ago. I feel that the OM exploited my vulnerabilities and broken marriage to get in my pants then kicked me to the curb like garbage once his W found out, even though the OM and I had ended it ourselves before. I know, I know, I know... I deserve no sympathy. And doing NC quick and abrupt was needed for all of us. I know all of this in my head. But it doesn't make it feel any better, knowing how completely used I was for the OM's thrills. I thought I was in love with this man and that I was smarter than that. And I feel like he's laughing at me about it. He and his wife are moving on and I really do want that if that's what she wants. (Dang, she has no idea the things he told me. She would so be out the door if she knew, even if they were just lies.) But there's the little piece of me that is still so angry about how he used me, lied to me, then left me in a heap on the side. Again, I know that's how it has to be and that affairs don't have happy endings. But I'm angry that I'm left standing here known as the home-wrecking wh**e and he's merrily going along like all's well that ends well. Obviously, I'm still grappling with this. Sorry 'bout that little rant.

Anyway...

My H added an introduction to my apology letter and took it upon himself to add the following:

"...I received an apology from OM (even though I didn't request it). L4 claims she never got an apology directly from OM. I know...this is getting into a sensitive area where I don't belong, but I thought I would mention this fact to you..."

I wish he would have let my apology stand on its own. I'm concerned now that she's going to read it from a defensive point of view, like "Why the h*ll would my H need to apologize to her?" I told my H I wish he wouldn't have added the comment about me not getting an apology from OM. And that quiet frankly now I do not want one. We can't have contact and it would be so contrived anyway. My H sees my point and is sorry that he added it. But we have to let it all go now, right? It's done. And over. I need to be through with the other couple. They can get on however they want to. And my H and I have to restore only ourselves.

Just wanted to share since I had asked about the letter here a few times.

Is eating a quart of Haagan-Daas coffee ice cream while watching reruns of Law & Order considered a distraction?

It's hard because I have no job and all of my friends work. My sister is unemployed and we talk every day, but my primary distraction is MBs and looking for the occasional job. I want to make sure I'm available if my H wants to talk or be with me.

I am going to a play tonight with family. Tomorrow H is going to a game with his friend who knows everything so that should be good for him. Then there is church Sunday and a committee meeting I have. Unfortunately, my H has said he is going to stay away from church for a while which I believe is a big mistake. He thinks I'm a hypocrite, going to church trying to be all good and stuff when I'm acutally just a cheater. He says he can't be a part of that, going to a place where people act all saintly when really they may be liars underneath. He knows "we're all sinners", but he feels some sins are greater than others (i.e. mine) and wants no part of that now. So the kids and I will go. Our pastor called us last night to check in and that was nice.

Progress?

My H asked why I'm not using my expensive, super comfy pillow while I'm in the guestroom. I answered that I just haven't bothered to go upstairs to get it. Then I corrected myself. I said, "Wait. That wasn't the truth and that's not who I am any more. The real reason I haven't taken the pillow from our bed upstairs is because I want it to be there to remind you of me when you go to bed. I see it as representing me next to you. I don't want to take that away."

Just a little moment I wanted to share...

L4,

Just let go of what he added, it's the only thing you can do. My therapist use to tell me "What is done, is done and you can't take it back so don't obsess on it."

I felt much like you do about your FOM for a very long time and ended up with a VERY unhealthy level of anger toward my FOM. I fought hard not to act on it, but I sure wanted him to pay just like I was. Even to this day if I think about it it can still get me riled up, therefore it's best I just do my best to let it go.



Don't even get me started on this subject. I apologized to FOM's W and she accepted my apology. My POSOM never apologized to anyone even after my DH talked to FOM's W and told her he certainly deserved one from FOM, as did I. DH hasn't brought it up in a long time, but I know it bothered him for a long time that FOM never had the decency to apologize. Especially after he pretended to be my DH's friend through all of this and in the end, IMO, he certianly owed him one.

My DH has always said FOM is such a coward and afraid if he does actually apologize to either of us he would have to take blame for his part, (something else he never did)

This subject (and OW bashing) will still make my blood boil if I let it. I try hard not to let it though.

OK, that's the end of my small rant.

LC

Good for you!

Apologies are given, not requested, demanded, or to be asked for. To want one is another story.

I agree your BH should of not added the remark in the last letter sent.

I think that your BH must also give you the right to approve any letter being sent as you must give him the right to approve the letter that you may have to send from this point out. Your BH has shown that his judgment is not 100%.

Fortunately you did the nice thing and apologized to the OMW and told her you would never interfere in her marriage again. You tried to ease her pain and give her some security back. Well done.

Unfortunately you or the OM do not deserve apologies from each other.

Why?

You were an adult that knew what you were doing was an affair. You freely chose to have your affair. You found ways to justify to yourself that what you were doing was ok.

Did the OM rape you, blackmail you, coerce you, force you, intimidate you?

The OM sold you on buying the affair.

Now you have buyers remorse. Whether as one buy's a lemon car, or let's a mortgage company sell you a bad loan. It's buyer beware.

The only thing you are correct in feeling and wanting to act on is that the OM used you and then threw you under the bus.

But what can you do to get even to the OM? Nothing. He has to face his spouse the way you have to face yours.

TheRoad,

Very well said. I especially like this part because it is so true.


L4,

I just thought of this. It seems to be a positive your DH is trying to look out for you.

LC

L4,

I've been a bit busy at work but have just looked at your recent updates and wanted to share with you these things that came to mind as I read.

I have noticed your helping others on the forums already. Your insight is valuable and your change in logic from just a matter of days ago is astounding. Do be certain that any advice you give lines up with Marriage Builders since that really is what we're all here for. Personal experience can't be replaced, but neither can sound methods.

Regarding church being full of hypocrites; Your husband's comment suggests that he doesn't understand what church is to be all about at all. (Assuming "church" means a Christian denomination of some sort here) Christianity isn't about doing right and wrong. It isn't about acting a certain way. Being a Christian doesn't mean being better than anyone else or even "good." The church is not full of "good" folks it is full of "forgiven" folks.

If we have to be good enough to be accepted by God, none of us can make the grade, we all fall woefully short. The only "good enough" is to be like Him and that is why He provides a way for His righteousness to by accounted to us.

So the church isn't full of good people or, better people (better than everyone is still not equal to God's requirements) or "moral" people or "ethical" people. It's just full of people and all people are sinners. Saints are just forgiven sinners...I could say a lot more but won't right now.

On to another topic...

Remember the feelings about how OM treated you and how it made you feel used. That can be your great contribution to these forums in days ahead. You know the reality of an affair.

When you are having an affair it feels like this other person is your soul mate, your true love and the perfect fit for you. But the "true undying love" that OM expressed during the affair was so quickly and effortlessly cast aside to throw you under the bus at the first sign of a threat from his wife. In fact she didn't even have to threaten him, just confront him and he abandoned you like left-over lunch found in the fridge in the break room at work...

This soul mate quickly showed his true colors as a liar and cheater, though you were able to believe him when he lied to you.

And now your husband is suffering and in agony over what happened to him but also over the pain you are experiencing. This man you felt so certain didn't care about you and were so sure didn't love you like OM did is now fighting against his own desire to forgive you because he thinks he should not because he's always told himself it was unforgivable. He hurts for his loss, but also for yours in all of this, and this was the one you planned to discard for OM, who tossed you aside like so much refuse at the first sign of trouble on a personal level.

Remember all of this, L4, not only for you and your future, but because THIS can maybe help others see the truth before they throw their lives away for a lie...

Enough rambling...back to work.

Mark

L4,

I have so much to say to you today. Sorry I didn't get it all in one message, but I kept thinking of things after I posted to you.


IMO, all of what you are feeling is part of the package. I felt the EXACT same way and even journalled about it back in 2005 and also talked it over with my therapist. She taught me skills I could use to help, but it took a long time for me to commit to doing what I needed. I really prolonged so much by doing many things wrong.

Don't let the anger take over like I did. Journal about how you are feeling and release it. I would suggest journaling then burning the pages. Eventually I figured out it was better to burn them than give them to my FOM. UGH, I embarassed myself over and over because we had not discovered MB's and although we thought we were doing a great job at NC we really stunk at it. One of the worst things I did was give him a closure letter that showed just how angry I was. I'm sure I looked like a total loon. I still have a copy of it in my journal and I was a total loon.

I know it's hard not to want to share the anger and such with your DH, but try not to do that either. My poor H had to listen to it all. I have no idea how he was able to do it. He would just tell me the only thing that mattered was we knew the truth and it didn't matter what FOM said or did.

Remember, just because you did something bad it does not define who you are. That person gets to remain in the past as you take the steps to make everything right.

Time will help with all of this.

LC

Only if chocolate is involved.

Good job on the pillow comment! Keep up the radical honesty. That and time will help regain trust.

Try and get some exercise, too. Lord knows it did wonders for me.

- Sh0cked

Geez, I love you guys. Just when I think I can't cry any more, I come here and the tears flow again. ...In a good way. Thanks.

I want to be helpful and will try to be careful. Reading others struggles/successes is helping a lot and I want to try to repay if/where appropriate for everything y'all have done for me.

You're so right, but I can't seem to get him to see this. He is very bitter about it all right now. Church has always been more "my" thing than his. But he has really embraced it since our son was born 7 years ago and I don't want him to lose his faith. I'm really worried about this and have been speaking to our pastor about it as well. I know my H is still praying (or so he tells me), but I don't want him to turn away from the church community that can be such a source of strength, grace, and comfort.

You put how he's feeling so eloquently. Thank you, Mark1952. I kind of got this, but not clearly until now. Very helpful. I'll do my best to remember this.

The journey continues...

I'm a little worried about some things. We're still very early in the post-confession timeline so maybe I shouldn't worry, but I'd like your experienced input.

My H says I can't see my therapist any more. At least not regularly like I was, once a week. Since I'm unemployed, he says we have to watch our money and we can't afford me doing this. He thinks therapy isn't of much use anyway (see earlier posts). But it's the therapy that helped me end the affair and start working on me and our marriage after all. I have self-esteem issues as it is. Should I just accept this and hope I can get through this aftermath -- the hardest thing I've ever done -- without my therapist? I'm talking to very close friends and my sisters and of course all of you, but was getting so much out of therapy.

Another thing... My H and I have been having the best talks since my disclosure. But the last two days he's reverted back to his communication tactics of interupting me, yelling at me, and thinking for me. What I mean by thinking for me is he'll say, "You did this because you think," or "You just feel that," or "You thought it was [okay/right/fine]..." He's also again doing this thing where he'll ask me a question but not accept my answer. If I don't give him the answer he projects is right, he'll shoot me down then answer for me. Example -- Today he asked if I bought the new swimsuits this last May for the FOM to see me in on a business trip. I actually got the suits after the infamous business trip where the PA took place. I told my H the truth -- that I bought the suits because I had lost 35 pounds and needed new ones that fit. My H said he's sure I got them for my FOM (who lives 2000 miles away). I assured him that no, I needed new swimsuits. I told him I'll produce my old one to show him how bad it was and headed to get it from our room. He walked away and said he knows it's because I wanted to show my body off to the FOM. ??? I had already admitted that an earlier shopping spree in April was conducted with seeing my FOM in mind, purchasing specific things for the FOM to see. So why would I lie about my May purchases? The fact is that the afternoon that I bought the suits, I modeled them for my H and we had some of the best s** we had had in a long time. I reminded him of that -- how I showed them to him first. I also reminded my H who has studied the timeline of the PA closely, that the FOM and I had no meetings in May nor after and the last time I saw the FOM was in April -- AFTER the suits purchase. So why did H even ask me? He didn't like my answer so interupted me and told me what "my" true answer was. This is one example, but he did this three times today.

Another thing he used to do often... We start a discussion that gets heated and he starts walking away or leaves all-together. Today he asked me a question. I was answering and he didn't believe my answer and started walking away while telling me I'm wrong. I told him if he wants to talk with me, he needs to stay with me to have the conversation. I'm not going to yell down the hall and down the stairs. He responded, "Well I can hear you just fine." I said, "But I can't see you and if you really want to talk bout this, let's talk face to face." He mumbled something then went into his office.

As horrible as the topic of my infidelity has been these past 12 days, we have been communicating so well -- practicing all the things we had been learning in MC and truly sharing thoughts and feelings. But these last two days, I'm seeing things reappear that I didn't like in my husband and that I don't like about our communication. Please tell me this will pass. I can't go backward again. And to remind you, my H refuses to return to MC.

L4,

Quite often initially it's 2 steps forward, 2 steps back. After time passes if you keep communicating and working the plan you will find you take more steps forward than back.

I have a suggestion for you. When things are calm talk to your H and ask him to help you come up with an idea on how you each should handle the situation of him walking out. If he still wants to do it, then he should know that will end the conversation for the time being and when he is ready to re-enter you can continue (or something like that). Perhaps he can announce he needs a break or whatever.

LC

L4, they call this a roller coaster for a reason. He will continue to experience a wide range of emotions - anger, desperation, vulnerability, bitterness, empathy, etc. The brain goes crazy trying to rationalize the recent events. As he is trying to come to grips with what happened, wires will get crossed.

There are those that made it through without counseling but they will tell you it was a tougher journey. Remind him how much therapy helps you deal with the horrible mistakes you have made. If you really cannot afford it, you have little choice. If, on the other hand, he is playing some sort of punishment game, you may want to insist.

You might suggest to your H a 30 minute time-out can be called by either of you. It is important that you both honor the hiatus at the other's request and imperative that conversation resumes after a cooling off period.

What you are going through now is likely the most difficult thing you have ever experienced. I would like to say that it will get easier but that takes time. Meanwhile, you admitted that there is progress - open up a pint of Ben and Jerry's, marvel at the wisdom of Lennie Briscoe, and take care of yourself. You need to muster your strength for this marathon.

- Sh0cked

This is getting to be very difficult. I have no motivation for working out. I used to work out 5 - 6 days a week. It's been three weeks since I've done so. I can't sleep and I'm eating junk. I sit, lament, and wait for the next question or round of justified anger to come from my H. I know this isn't helping me and I have to turn it around. But it's hard...

Hi L4,

Everyone is giving you superb marital advice so I'll mention this personal aspect of your posts.

If you're interested in possibly being a part of a healthy habit email support group (just me and a few other MB ladies), let me know via post and we'll figure out a way to exchange email addresses. It's a very casual group....I think we've collectively lost about 500 pounds in the last year or so......only problem is that we've gained 600 during the same time....just kidding LOL.

Ace

looking4

"I used to work out 5 - 6 days a week. It's been three weeks since I've done so. I can't sleep and I'm eating junk. I sit, lament"

You need to keep working out and eat no more junk. Do not let yourself go. You need to keep yourself healthy. Exercise produces endorphins, which give one's body a natural high. Thus you get to keep fit, healthy, and give yourself a natural mood lift. Why let your appearance and health go to hell. Besides, why give your BH a chance to complain that you only worked out to look good for the OM. I'm sure there is no truth to that last sentence but why give your BH ammunition.

"At least not regularly like I was, once a week. Since I'm unemployed, he says we have to watch our money and we can't afford me doing this. He thinks therapy isn't of much use anyway (see earlier posts). But it's the therapy that helped me end the affair and start working on me and our marriage after all"

I don't know what can't afford means. Is the mortgage not getting paid? Are the utilities going to get shut off? Are the car's going to get repossessed? Is the family going in worn out clothes and to bed hungry?

Or can't afford means no eating out in restaurants, no major vacations, no going to movies?

Tell/remind BH that therapy ended your affair, and you still need it to continue healing. That not all healing takes place with a scalpel or medicine. If money is tight. You can go every other week to ease the strain. Then you tell him you need this help so you can get stable enough to find a new job.

"tactics of interrupting me, yelling at me, and thinking for me" So don't let him bait you. Bite your tongue.

As to the swimsuit issue. He will want to believe what he wants at this point. Yes you bought them because you needed them. Yes you modeled them for him first.

But did you wear them for the OM?

What else did you buy for you to wear use with the OM?

Do you still have these things bought that you wore, used for the OM?

I was working out before the affair, and continued it diligently after. I know what you're saying though.

The FOM never saw me in the swimsuits.

Before I went on the business trip where I knew I was going to see the FOM (but didn't expect we'd be together), I bought generic stuff. Nothing specifically bought for him. It was everyday clothes that I bought because of my weight loss and because it was my birthday. I worked from home and lived in sweats so I got a couple pairs of jeans, a coat, and some underclothing. I know what you're thinking about the underclothing and yes, I fantasized that perhaps my FOM would see it and like it, but I didn't buy it for him. (I'll spare you the discussion on what happens with bras when a bunch of weight is lost.) In fact, I was hoping maybe my H would notice me if I was wearing something other than white cotton stuff. The planned agenda on that business trip wasn't going to allow my FOM and I to ever be alone together, between the meetings and scheduled group outings. ...And believe me, we were looking for holes in it where we might be able to get away from the group. It was his hometown so he was sleeping at his house, I at a girlfriend's. When the FOM and I ended up together physically in a car in a parking lot, I was actually wearing my ratty old underclothing.

The reason I asked is that BH's hate the objects that their WW wore when with the OM. They need something to project their hate on.

So maybe you could show your BH the items you wore and then throw them out. It's decootying your closet so to speak.

Also if you got any gifts you could do the same with them.

One of the many challenges is that he will continue to be on a witch hunt. He will believe what he wants to believe and nothing other than total honesty over a long period of time will help. It will still be quite a while before he is able to let even the smallest things go.

Do try and get some exercise, L4. In fact, try and encourage your H to go with you. Gyms can be meat markets (my W met her OM there) so having him with you can help provide reassurances that you are not on the prowl. I still highly recommend racquetball; you can enjoy a cardio workout and get to hit things.

Ummm... As athletic as I am, ping pong is about as good as I can get with a racquet-type sport. I see your point though, Sh0cked. I will get back on it. We have a treadmill, work out tapes, and weight center in our home so no gym necessary. Just the impetus to get off my backside.

As for the gifts, my FOM never gave me any. And all pictures, notes, emails, and anything else were deleted/destroyed long ago -- well before my H knew anything. I did that for my own sanity.

I get this, but then why does my H even ask me? He used to do this all the time -- ask me a question but not accept my answer. It's his M.O. So while it makes sense that he does not trust me at all now, why does he bother asking a question if my answer (in his eyes) isn't going to be the truth anyway?

Is it a test? Does he have his own insecurities and he is seeking some sort of validation? Perhaps it is even a kind of controlling behavior. One thing is sure - he is less likely to believe you now than he was before. As the wounds of infidelity heal, his behaviors that contributed to your unhappiness in the marriage will need to be addressed. MC would be a perfect place to discuss this when and if you can get him to go.

Can you talk him into exercise with you? It would do him a world of good and an routine shared might bring you closer together. Dr. Harley sets the bar at 15 hours per week.

L4 I just read through your thread and I do applaud you for doing the right thing and confessing to your H and even more so for taking his anger instead of bailing on him once again. Then you kind of lost me here...


You lied to yourself L4. OM doesn't owe you an apology and you don't owe him one. You have no idea what has been going on in OM's house and don't know what OMW knows and doesn't. How do you know his W would be so out the door? I know every disgusting detail of my FWH's A (many here know of their WS's A details as well) and they are still fighting the good fight. **mini rant over**

Good luck to you and your H. It is not easy to recover from such a devasting loss, but I give you credit for trying.

L4,

I get this, but then why does my H even ask me? He used to do this all the time -- ask me a question but not accept my answer. It's his M.O. So while it makes sense that he does not trust me at all now, why does he bother asking a question if my answer (in his eyes) isn't going to be the truth anyway?

I would guess that by asking, he is seeing if your story stays the same from time to time, trying to catch you in another lie.

God Bless
NJ

I know, BR. I know... My reasoning is not sound. It's not based on any facts. FOM owes me nothing and I owe him nothing. But that's how I feel. Purely how I feel. On paper we're doing everything right to struggle through this. But I still hurt. I invested myself into the FOM and he promised me up, down, and sideways that he'd be there for me, even as we unraveled our dispicable PA. As completely twisted, dishonest, and disgraceful as it was, I gave a piece of my emotional heart to that man. And he treated me like roadkill. It was as if he was following a playbook on how to finess, conduct, and then end an affair. I'm not asking for sympathy and goodness knows I don't deserve it. I was just venting in this place where I feel safe. Sorry about that.

I'm an adult. I made my choices and I'm living with them. But my heart still aches knowing that a man I thought cared about me really doesn't give a crap. And the man that apparently loved me all along but couldn't show it (my H), can't love me any more.

I agree, NJ. He's running truth tests and I understand why. And I'll submit to them every time. But he's always done this. It's a controlling thing he's done for years and it's back. We were working on it through counseling, and I can only guess (of course I don't know) that he feels justified in returning this tactic because I'm a liar. Correction -- I was a liar. But I can't go back to again being the stupid one whose opinions, answers, and feedback can be dismissed. I'm eating it for now, but I can't go back there to stay.

Anyway... Carrying on...

Vent away anytime you want, I will listen. BTW, I completely understand where you are coming from and what you are saying. In time it will all sort itself out though and you will start to see how fog played into all of this. I mean really see it and most likely you will start to cringe over some stuff that was said. To this day there are still things that make me cringe and there are times I think "how the heck didn't I see through THAT nonsense and totally believe it?" It really is part of the process.

LC

It's only been 13 days since my confession. We were digging in deep, but he's drifting away now. He's barely talking to me any more. The last three days he's left the house withhout telling me where he's going or if/when he'll return. (We never do this. We always tell each other when we're stepping out, even if we're mad at each other.) I told him I can't stand that because I don't know if he's walking out for good or just to go to the store. He said, "Sorry," the first time and has since done it again -- in the middle of the day and late at night.

He sent me 4 emails today, all exclaiming deep hurt. I know this is expected -- that this takes time. But some of the statements were really mean. He's using foul language and mocking my needs for therapy. I'm trying to take the high road, continue to take responsibility for my actions past and present, and respond to his emails honestly. But the sarcasm, accusations against my mothering, and hurtful name calling... I'm trying to stand strong. I know this is par for the course. I know I deserve it. But can someone tell me how long before the punches stop? I'll take them as long as I know they will eventually end.

He won't go to church with us tomorrow, he has work in the afternoon, and I have a church meeting tomorrow night. He leaves Monday on business until Thursday night. This means five more days of not being together, not being able to look into his eyes and reassure him I'm sorry and I'm committed to this marriage. I'm so scared he's gone. What can I do?

Of course not. After what you both have been through, neither of you should settle for the way things were.

I tip my hat to you - you certainly have a good attitude about all of this.

I have been guilty of this one - he is doing this to punish you. He knows you are afraid of being abandoned. I hate to admit it but I used to smirk as I tip-toed out of the house knowing my W would be climbing the walls when she discovered I was gone.

It is one thing to vent and another to be malicious. You should not have to stand for verbal abuse. You are not a doormat. Let him know you love him and you want to be there for him. You will console him, reassure him, and be completely honest with him but you cannot and will not be his punching bag. Your mistakes, as bad as they are, do not warrant cruelty.

L4, I assume you have read up on Plan A. Make yourself more attractive to your H. Exercise, eat right, become the kind of woman he would want to date. I suspect he feels the desperation from you and uses it as a weapon for transferring his pain.

13 days since you told BH.

It takes on average for a BH to go six months to grasp what has happen and calm down, not heal though. Then they go through a anger phase from six to twelve months out. In all from D day recovery takes two to five years. It's a very gradual process.

L4,

He won't go to church with us tomorrow, he has work in the afternoon, and I have a church meeting tomorrow night.

He might suspect that people in the church know, I think you said you told you pastor, so perhaps he feels he would be standing there like a cuckoo with all his feathers stripped off. Does he feel like he's traveling around under a cloud with a neon chump sign on his chest?

I started going to my wifes church with her after reading about all the affairs that start in that environment. It's a great place for smooth seducing serial cheating males to operate. I think it has something to do with women believeing church to be a safe and sacred place.

I used to go to a Catholic church which might be safer for women as they worship a virgin and the priests are uninterested in ladies.

Also the hypocracy aspect might be getting to him.

NJ

Dear Looking4,

I hope you won't mind my joining in your thread. I have very little expertise with the MB programme and I feel that I have some cheek to advise others! I have tried to restore my marriage without a proper programme of action such as the Harley one, and I would not hold my recovery as a success story.

I very much admire you for having posted in the first place, asking as you did the question about honesty. You seemed to have realised before you posted that confessing was the right thing to do, and you did not take the coward's way out, but posted here for strength. You then acted on advice that seems contrary to common sense; that telling your H would be the only hope you had of building a strong marriage. You are facing up to the consequences of your actions with courage, and I admire you for that also.

Having read Dr. Harley's views on marriage, I have come to realise that some BSs and WSs (certainly I and my H) need to examine and perhaps change the moral principles under which they have operated thus far. My very first post this board was a long ramble about contemporary morality and marriage. It didn't spark the debate I hoped it would, but if you read it (by clicking on my name and viewing that post, number 1 of mine) you might see what I am trying to get at here, with you.

On 24 October you wrote this to Mama2boys:

(Quote)
Does the OW's husband know about the A? If he was told, do you think he would put a stop to them moving back into the building? I personally am not a proponant of telling the OM/OW's BS, but in this case it seems essentional that he knows what he's moving back into.

I have only just noticed that statement, which went unchallenged on that thread. It might seem odd for me to bring it up now, but I think it's important that you look at your attitude to honesty if you want to build a new marriage. You made a difficult personal discovery when your H forced you recently to look closely at the events before you married, and I would like to suggest that you continue with that self-examination now.

It isn't just in cases like Mama2boys' that the other BH needs to know. It is not only necessary to tell the other spouse when there is imminent threat of the affair re-igniting.

The other BS should be told because it is the right thing to do. He or she is the victim of the moral crime of adultery. We would never say that that victims of theft should not be told of the crime about which they are unaware, and yet we often say this about adultery.

I said this about my H's affair. For about 18 months after I discovered (in 2005) that he had continued the affair for two years after my first discovery (in 2003), I thought I should not tell her OWH. I thought that it would be morally wrong to do so, to take action that would cause needless and great unhappiness to someone because his wife had hurt me.

I discovered her H's identity easily on the internet less than a week after my second D Day, and yet, as I say, I thought it wrong for a long time to contact him. When I did it was only to stop the repeated contact from her. It was only after I did contact him that I realised how morally wrong I had been not to have told him straight away.

Not only had I facilitated continuation of the affair, but I did nothing while my H broke OWH's and his children's hearts. OWH knew something was wrong in his marriage but he put this down to its growing stale over the 20+ years. However, much worse than this, his children, who were teenagers, early during the affair discovered texts from my H on their mother's phone. They decided together not to tell their father, because they did not want to see him hurt and their home broken up. They had a vague knowledge of their mother's earlier affair, and they remembered how sickening that had been for their father. They took the wrong decision not to tell their father, but that is understandable; they were children. They then had to go on to watch their mother grow further and further away from their father, and from them, to the point that she moved out the marital home to live in another country on weekdays "to pursue her career". They knew the reason why their mother was behaving as she was and, in their innocence, they thought it right not to tell.

Now, I didn't know OW and her H's identities for some of the time while this was happening, but even after I did, I did nothing, and I have no excuse. I was not a child. My warped view of right and wrong caused an awful lot of damage that I could have stopped, and I regret bitterly the damage I allowed my H to cause to other innocent people, especially the children.

Moral cowardice can have practical consequences for oneself, but it is worse to allow those consequences to fall on other people. I can accept that my having allowed the affair to continue backfired on me, but I feel pain over the effect that my cowardice had on these children, and their father. I have apologised many times to OWH - we talked for a while after my exposure - and he says that I have nothing to apologise for. I disagree, but worse, I have never apologised to his children, and I should.

I should not post in your thread to tell my story, and I have a bad habit of doing this (somebody slap me!), but I'm really try to talk about something else here, not me. I'm trying to say that being a moral person is a state of mind and a choice we make, because we learn and accept the fundamental difference between right and wrong. We should not do only the things in our marriages that, on a cost-benefit basis, bring about improvements to us. Perhaps especially after an affair we should be thinking about morality, and right and wrong, as a way of life. The cowards way out should never again be taken.

I think that you probably are undergoing such a change in mindset; certainly I wish my H would take a look at his conscience as you are doing. If I can use a word that is very ironic in the circumstances, your BH is lucky to have a repentant (F) WS like you. I'd just like to suggest that you might be able write the F in your FWW status big, bold, and underscored if you choose morality always from now on, and not convenience.

I know you said that OMW in your situation already knows of your affair. How did she find out?

Everyone's situation differs but the punches will stop/lessen at some point because even the BS can only take so much. It takes a lot of energy to be THAT angry all the time. I punched my FWH up for a good 3-4 weeks...not every moment of every day but enough to make me feel "normal" for about 8 secs before returning to my private he//.

I can not emphasize this enough L4, tell your H the truth when he asks for it. Nothing ticks off a BS more than the WS STILL lying to his face...the lies can destroy your M for good and even the spouses themselves. Don't go there.

ETA: As far as him not going to church, your H may feel ashamed to go. He's angry and obviously not acting in a way that is pleasing to God. That or feeling the hypocrisy my be eating at him.

Read that paragraph again...

And again...

And again...

Keep reading it over and over until you are sick of hearing it...
Then read it again...

You simply cannot lie at all at this point about anything. Any lie will be the dagger in the heart all over again.No matter how much he loves you, your husband simply cannot take any lies and still come out the other side of this wanting you and wanting to be with you. It won't be lack of commitment that will drive him away and won't even be anger over the affair. It will be the lies that will kill his love for you. Each lie kills him (and his love for you) a little more than the last.

You just can't lie ever again.

You saw the look on his face when you confessed. You could see how much he hurt. You've seen it replay itself since then. A lie does it all over again. It betrays his trust and his belief in you just like the first time he found out.

Even worse than that, it destroys his belief and trust in himself to judge what is true and what is not.

If you do nothing else right from here on out, get this part right. Lies of omission count just the same as those of commission.

Not saying you have been lying, just saying you can't ever again and recover from this as a couple.

Mark

The FOM and I had verbally committed to ending the affair -- no more intamacy, communication only during work hours, and other boundaries. (I know, I know... What I know now is that no A can be ended without total NC, but we thought we were doing right.) We still worked together -- though long distance, two time zones apart. Three weeks later I had an anxiety attack and ended up emailing my co-managers that I had to take the rest of the day off. My H was out of town on business. FOM got the email and called me to ask what was wrong. I broke down and could barely breathe. I couldn't talk and said I'd email him. I did, detailing that I didn't love my H, I was lost, didn't know what I was doing, blah blah blah. I was a complete mess. The email had nothing erotic but was chalk full of my emotional brokenness. FOM had JUST gotten a new phone and downloaded my email to his mobile to read it. He must not have deleted it because she read it a couple days later. I have no idea how she approaced him or what was said. I just know I got a text from him saying that she had read the email, the day had come, he didn't love me, he was fighting for his marriage, don't ever contact him again, etc. FOM's W had been susupicious of me for some time, I guess. And she had been checking up on him for a few months. He covered his tracks every time, except then. And as you know, it takes only once.

Thank you for your answer. Looking4.

What you wrote brings me to something you said earlier. I know you have explained that you were only venting when you wrote about feeling used, but I wonder if you have really dealt with your responsibilities in getting involved in another person's marriage.

You wrote:

So why am I still so mad at OM? I was spewing to my H about it two days ago. I feel that the OM exploited my vulnerabilities and broken marriage to get in my pants then kicked me to the curb like garbage once his W found out, even though the OM and I had ended it ourselves before. I know, I know, I know... I deserve no sympathy. And doing NC quick and abrupt was needed for all of us. I know all of this in my head. But it doesn't make it feel any better, knowing how completely used I was for the OM's thrills. I thought I was in love with this man and that I was smarter than that. And I feel like he's laughing at me about it. He and his wife are moving on and I really do want that if that's what she wants. (Dang, she has no idea the things he told me. She would so be out the door if she knew, even if they were just lies.) But there's the little piece of me that is still so angry about how he used me, lied to me, then left me in a heap on the side. Again, I know that's how it has to be and that affairs don't have happy endings. But I'm angry that I'm left standing here known as the home-wrecking wh**e and he's merrily going along like all's well that ends well. Obviously, I'm still grappling with this. Sorry 'bout that little rant (end quote).

You should not assume for one minute that "he and his wife are moving on", if by that you mean that his wife is not paying dearly for your involvement in her marriage. I would suggest that she is shattered by this and that her world has come to an end. You would do well to read the many stories by BSs here about the moment of discovery and gain a glimmer of insight into how devastating that moment feels. Your words to OM showed her that, not only had her husband been having a sexual relationship with you, but that deep feelings (perhaps words of love) had been expressed by both of you and that he had considered leaving her and their children for you. If you told him that your life was as bad as you said in your post, then she would have known instantly that he had told you that his life was the same.

She found out in a text message that her H did not love her, was suffering seeing her face first thing every morning, was merely enduring her kisses as he left the house and returned from work, was hating lying next to her in bed and wishing you were there instead, was hating spending weekends with her when he could not escape to work and had longed for their last holiday to be over because he could not stand pretending to be happy for extended periods in her company. For some time now he had wanted to get away from her, her boring parents, the tedious get togethers with friends in which happiness was being faked, the hypocritical wedding anniversary dinner at a restaurant that he had had to pretend to enjoy, his having had to sign cards to her with "love you always, X" when he hadn't meant it... he had hated everything about his unhappy lie of a marriage to her. He had wanted to be far away from everything to do with her, except for their children. He loved his children enough to try and give them stable childhoods, but every day was torture, and she had not known this until that moment. However difficult things had grown to be between them, she had never realised that he must be feeling THAT BAD, and she saw it in that moment she picked up his phone. You cannot imagine how that felt, but I can, because that is what happened to me (D Day 2).

What your OMW went on to do was to listen to him ask her not to give up on the marriage, to his telling her that he loved her and always had done, that he had not stayed only for the children and would not be doing so now, if she gave the marriage another chance. She had not believed him and does not still, but she is prepared to put her children's needs above her own, for now, and so she is staying in the marriage. She is living with monumental unhappiness because she knows her children would be badly affected by divorce, and she cannot bear to put her happiness above theirs. I don't know what he told her about his feelings for you, about the depth of your involvement and about what he had actually told you about loving you and leaving her. Be assured, however, that if she is prepared to try again in this marriage, she is choking on her misery over how intimate he became with you.

Quote:
(Dang, she has no idea the things he told me. She would so be out the door if she knew, even if they were just lies.)

It is very likely that she has by now found out the nature of the things he told you. Do you think that she is only prepared to stay because he has managed to pass off the affair as a fling, in which he was cool and upfront about what he wanted from you? Do you think that she has not demanded more details from him, that she has not challenged him when he gave the "light" version of the affair ("why is she saying these things about her feelings for you, if you never said them to her?"), that she has not picked him up endlessly on inconsistencies and illogical statements, that she has not asked him to show her previous emails between you and discovered the basic, appalling details of how far this relationship went?

You've made an apology to her, but I wonder whether you have really thought about what you have done to her. Certainly, you seem to think that their marriage is relatively untroubled, and that he is "merrily" going on with his life, and by implication, she with hers.

She is doing no such thing. She is thinking every minute when she is awake, and having bad dreams in her sleep, about whether he is lying about his feelings for her and cannot stand her, about whether he feels repulsion when she initiates sex and he makes an effort only because he has not got you, whether he cannot bear the way she feels inside, is disgusted by her stretch marks (that he gave her, with their children), finds her stringy breasts revolting and her ageing face and grey hairs peeking through, difficult to look at.

He probably feels no such thing, but she will not know that now, or for some time yet. He had a thrilling affair with you, a woman that he had long been attracted to, and so must find gorgeous. How does he come down from that and go back to loving the woman that he was driven away from?

When she works out, as I have done, that the problem is not with her but with her H, she will not feel any better. She will then be faced with trying to rebuild a marriage with a man who had no appreciation for what he has with her, no commitment to extraordinary protection for her or his marriage, no compunction about destroying his children's futures for sex on the side and only the fear of getting caught to stop him becoming involved with someone else further down the line.

She isn't feeling good about her life or her marriage and it will be a long time before she does again. You should acknowledge that, and never write about her again as if she is untouched by this and you are the victim.

Hi, SugarCane. I'm sorry for what you are going through. I don't know what it's like, but I see it on my husband since I confessed so I have an example of the hurt of a betrayed spouse before me every day.

All I did for a few months before my first post on MB was read the pain of BSs on this site and others. I knew I had to understand what I had done. I have to understand so that I will never ever do this again to my H nor anyone else.

He always told me that he loved his wife, that he would never leave her, and that he had a great marriage. I never once asked him to leave her. Not once. That's why I was confused by his motivations to have me in his virtual life. He loved his wife, had a very active and passionate sex life with her, great kids, successful career, his wife took care of him and the house, they had fun vacations, he was respected in his church... This is what he told me, anyway.

He worked from home. I worked a couple thousand miles away from him. We saw each other on one business trip during our 3+ month affair, all contact was otherwise by phone or digital. All of this desparate unhappiness your H was experiencing above may or may not have been true for my FOM. But it's not at all what he told me. He enjoyed their family gatherings and would tell me all about them. He never told me his life was even remotely bad or horrible. He always expressed to me that he loved his wife which is why he was tormented -- he said he loved us both. His perfect world, he told me one day, would be to stay married to his lovely wife and have me as his mistress indefinitely. I know I know I know... I should have run then -- fast and very far away. It's all so sick.

I know. I believe this. I am seeing it and hearing it in my own BH.

You're absolutely correct in that I don't know if she'd be out the door if she knew all that he told me. That comment was made out of disbelief because on the surface anyway, I think I would be. But who knows until you're in that position. I have no idea what she knows.

I think about her often. I have cried many tears for her and the impact I've had on her life. I pray for her and her family every day.

Her life is upside down. And his life is changed too. I didn't write that her life is merry. I saracstically meant his -- which of course is not independent of hers. My sarcasm came because it is as if he had his cake, he had the frosting, and he still has his life as he's known it. Their marriage is forever changed. My H has been in contact with both the BW and the FOM. I haven't read her emails, but my H told me in an email that, "FOM has a job, has a wife who is committed to him, had his office fling with you, and seems to be cruising along just fine. That has to be insult to injury [to you], and I'll admit, I get some satisfaction from this fact." That information in an email from my H is how I derived that the FOM is doing fine. But I was being snotty. FOM and his BW are working to save their marriage and I truly hope that if they BOTH want that, that they make it work.

He never acted driven away from her to me. There may have been problems in their marriage on some level or he wouldn't have done this. He supposedly always loved her so I don't know how he does this. Our affiar wasn't all about sex. And his love life from what he told me was very healthy -- his W took good care of him in every way. I don't understand how he could have done this to her. And I don't understand why I let him, why I participated in it.

I have acknowledged this, SC. I told the BW specifically in my only email to her all that I am sorry for. Not just for having an affair with her H, but for every act I did against her.

I am so NOT the victim in this affair and don't know that I've ever claimed to be at any time throughout this thread. I do feel (inappropriately) victimized by the FOM for pursuing me during a time of great weakness in my life -- and he knew this. But I do not blame the FOM nor anyone else but myself for the affair. If I implied that, I apologize. And I don't know where among these nearly three weeks of posts that I've stated the BW is untouched by this. I thought I showed concern for her a few times when I asked whether I should apologize to her.

I guess I was out of line feeling hurt about how the FOM treated me. I see now that I'm not allowed feel anything any more for a man who professed his love to me over and over and promised to be there for me as I was flailing in my life. A man who was a good, genuine friend for 5 years before this all happened. He disappeared in a text message and left me for garbage. I know people here feel I deserve that. And I feel the same way. But that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. I was duped and while I am angry at me for being so very very stupid, I feel great sadness for my BH and the BW. I am confused why I still have any feelings for the FOM -- the hate, the hurt and even a tad bit of sympathy. I thought I'd share my feelings here to try to gain some understanding about it. I'm sorry for sounding selfish. I was just hurting and confused. This site has been my lifeline as I'm trying to do the right thing in saving my marriage and I felt compelled to share this remaining struggle I'm having. I can't share these feelings any more with my H and am no longer seeing my therapist. And now I know I can't share them here either. I'll keep all thoughts about the FOM to myself and learn to deal with them another way. I'm sorry for any offense.

Yes, of course you are allowed. Fellings are just that. We can choose to act on them, validate them, or realize we are being irrational. Depending your choice, they will either increase, remain constant, or dissipate in time.


L4, I am a little confused by this. On more than one post you mention being abandoned like garbage. It seems the FOM made it very clear to you that he had no intention of leaving his W, ergo you would have been the OW forever or there would be a breakup. Did you really expect any other outcome?


L4, please keep venting here. Most of us are not here to judge and actually want to help. I am rooting for you, L4. You have learned from your mistakes and are trying like he77 to make amends.

Hang in there.

- Sh0cked

looking4

"I guess I was out of line feeling hurt about how the FOM treated me. I see now that I'm not allowed feel anything any more for a man who professed his love to me over and over and promised to be there for me as I was flailing in my life. A man who was a good, genuine friend for 5 years before this all happened. He disappeared in a text message and left me for garbage."

In time you will realize that a good man, not even a good friend will have an affair at the least. But then to just dump you as if you were nothing but some means to provide varity to his sex life. This is why it hurts. No one should have to hurt. But with time the pain fades.

"I know people here feel I deserve that. And I feel the same way."

No you don't. You slipped up. You manned up and confessed to your BH and apologized to the OMW.

"I was duped and while I am angry at me for being so very very stupid"

Yes you were. So was you BH and the OMW.

"I am confused why I still have any feelings for the FOM"

Being in an affair is an addiction to the chemical high your body received from the affair. This is why NC. Only with NC will you go through withdrawal for the OM. Then the feelings will go away for the OM.

"I'm sorry for any offense."

No offense in my book, you confessed instead of being found out.
Don't give up on sharing here. Some, because they are new here don't know when it's best to temper their guidance. Sometimes though we need to be direct. We want you to heal and recover your marriage.

Nope, I didn't think we'd be together but I always thought we would at least be friends as we had been for years. I didn't know how post-affair relationships were supposed to work, so I was in LaLa Land about it, I guess. We had broken up. Not the way we were supposed to with NC (didn't know) but had cut off intamacy. We were acting as "friends", obviously friends with a wrongful past and inapprorprite ties, but we had broken up as lovers. FOM had promised that we would get beyond the mess we had made together and that he would always be someone I could go to as I was trying to find my way through my marriage and my job. Again, in hindsight this is messed up because once you're lovers and you have this secret, it can never be a regular friendship again. (I know this NOW.) What hurt was that someone I had deep feelings for told me, "You can count on me no matter what, I care for you very much, and you're not alone," to then two days later typing on a phone screen words that meant "You mean nothing to me and I want nothing more to do with you. Too bad." Made me feel completely unvalued, unimportant. Worthless. Someone not worth caring for after all. And I was already getting those you're-not-important signs from my H so it was hard. The FOM for a few months claimed he was different, my H was a fool, and that I was worthy of a man's attention. Then in a heartbeat he proved his true colors and that indeed I wasn't worthy of concern.

But that was then. I'm here now. I was just sharing that last emotional tie up in anger that I still have with the FOM. I'll get over it. I'm sure.

Thanks.

And I appreciate it direct. Thank you.


Why? Today even my H doesn't want this for us.

L4,

Did OM have a history of doing this to women?

NJ

Loving them then leaving them? Not that I'm aware of. He's had 4 reltionships that I know of -- teenage first girlfriend, a serious girlfriend before and into college, his wife, and me. He married right after college, I believe. He's 8-years younger than me, BTW.

Ask anyone who knows him, and NO one would peg him as a cheater. He's quiet, stays in the background, very smart, kind, wears his Christianity on his sleeve, talks about his family often, doesn't get drunk... Everyone loves him -- co-workers, friends, family. He's very unassuming, which is probably why I felt safe in developing my friendship with him. I felt safe. And I'm an idiot.

Anyway... Moving on.

And I am sure you now know that someone who really cares for you would not become romantically involved while you/he were married to another. I cannot think of a single instance when this type of behavior would be good for anyone. He used you. You used him. Now, it is over.

Sounds like the kind of (ideal) relationship for a husband and wife, que no?

What is next for you, L4? Your H will be suffering for many months to come. It does not sound like you are in the best frame of mind either. Do you have a plan?

Yes. I want this in my marriage.

I don't. I'm just here. Waiting for H to tell me what he wants, what he needs from me. I want to be here for him. Otherwise, I feel pretty lost. He's out of town on business this week. I don't have a job. Not sure what I'm doing. Today hasn't been a good day.

Maybe tomorrow will be different.

As a BS, a plan was invaluable to me. It helped me stay the course, focus on the big picture, and reminded me what I was fighting for.

Read-up on Plan A. I do not see why it wouldn't be just as helpful for a former wayward. Focus on meeting your H's needs and focus on you.

You did what you did. Nothing can change that. Constantly beating yourself up about it serves no purpose. Learn from your mistakes and move forward. You are trying to be there for him - be there for you too.

Dear Looking4,

Thank you for your reply.

I should like to clarify what I tried to say in my last post and my intentions in posting as I did.

You said:
I guess I was out of line feeling hurt about how the FOM treated me. I see now that I'm not allowed feel anything any more for a man who professed his love to me over and over and promised to be there for me as I was flailing in my life. A man who was a good, genuine friend for 5 years before this all happened. He disappeared in a text message and left me for garbage. I know people here feel I deserve that. And I feel the same way. But that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. I was duped and while I am angry at me for being so very very stupid, I feel great sadness for my BH and the BW. I am confused why I still have any feelings for the FOM -- the hate, the hurt and even a tad bit of sympathy. I thought I'd share my feelings here to try to gain some understanding about it. I'm sorry for sounding selfish. I was just hurting and confused. This site has been my lifeline as I'm trying to do the right thing in saving my marriage and I felt compelled to share this remaining struggle I'm having. I can't share these feelings any more with my H and am no longer seeing my therapist. And now I know I can't share them here either. I'll keep all thoughts about the FOM to myself and learn to deal with them another way. I'm sorry for any offense (end quote).

My post to you said nothing about your feelings for FOM. I was not addressing those. I do not think it inappropriate for you to discuss your feelings here; on the contrary, I think someone in your position should do so. I think that on this forum you have received, and will continue to receive, the best possible advice on how to overcome your feelings, especially from others who have similar experience. You yourself acknowledged that your feelings were problematic and that you were seeking help. I, like others here, admire you for coming to MB and seeking to end the affair mess and restore your marriage.

My issue was with how you spoke of OMW. I saw no recognition of her plight in your posts, despite your talking of the apology letter. I think you said originally that your H asked you write a letter to her stating that even if your own marriage broke up you would stay out of hers. You told her that, and also made an apology. I have no issue with the apology and I'm not saying that it was not enough. However, you went on to write here

Quote:
He and his wife are moving on and I really do want that if that's what she wants. (Dang, she has no idea the things he told me. She would so be out the door if she knew, even if they were just lies.)

This made me question the spirit of your apology, and what you meant by the last two sentences. I have read statements like those on the board for other women. When dumped by their OM, these women try to gather up their shredded self-respect by arguing that the wife who finds out and does not leave is so lacking in insight, or is so desperate or self-deluding, that she takes back a husband who does not love her. BW refuses to look at the implications of his affair and recognise that it is the ultimate in not-love. The WH has utterly shamed her, and yet she takes him back on the basis of his argument that the affair was a fling. The OW claim that BW is self-deluding and in outright denial, and they throw scorn at her for that.

Before your reply to me, you had actually said very little about OMW in your situation, but you did say the (quoted section) above when talking about how you had been treated. I wanted to point out that you had participated in the breakdown of her marriage, which will have to be rebuilt now as painfully as yours, if she is to "move on" with her husband. I was not saying that you brought your pain on yourself; you had said that yourself, others had underscored it and no more needed to be said on this. However, you brought up his BW's "moving on". Nothing you wrote here showed that you recognised that she is not moving on and that she is suffering very badly.

When I said things like this

Quote:
She found out in a text message that her H did not love her, was suffering seeing her face first thing every morning, was merely enduring her kisses as he left the house and returned from work, was hating lying next to her in bed and wishing you were there instead, was hating spending weekends with her when he could not escape to work and had longed for their last holiday to be over because he could not stand pretending to be happy for extended periods in her company. For some time now he had wanted to get away from her, her boring parents, the tedious get togethers with friends in which happiness was being faked, the hypocritical wedding anniversary dinner at a restaurant that he had had to pretend to enjoy, his having had to sign cards to her with "love you always, X" when he hadn't meant it... he had hated everything about his unhappy lie of a marriage to her. He had wanted to be far away from everything to do with her, except for their children. He loved his children enough to try and give them stable childhoods, but every day was torture, and she had not known this until that moment. However difficult things had grown to be between them, she had never realised that he must be feeling THAT BAD, and she saw it in that moment she picked up his phone

I was not saying that this is how things really were in her marriage. Your rebuttal of specific details misses my point, which is that, regardless of the reality, this is what she "saw" - or misunderstood - when she read the message. This is what she now believes her marriage to be, and this is what she will think for a long time. When she learns to accept the truth, which is that he was very happy in his marriage, she was wonderful and that he always loved her, she will still be unhappy because she will see that she is married to a man that will take opportunities for excitement outside his marriage if he feels he can get away with it.

My post was about this wife whom you described as "moving on" while you suffered. Your words made you sound like the victim at her expense. I accept now that you did not mean that. Former WSs rightly get support here, and I'm glad that you're here. However, if, when talking about consequences, you look only the way that you have been used, it is right for someone to point out your treatment of others.

One more thing. You wrote

My H has been in contact with both the BW and the FOM. I haven't read her emails, but my H told me in an email that, "FOM has a job, has a wife who is committed to him, had his office fling with you, and seems to be cruising along just fine. That has to be insult to injury [to you], and I'll admit, I get some satisfaction from this fact." That information in an email from my H is how I derived that the FOM is doing fine.

OWH is my situation told his wife something very similar when he knew that it wasn't true. For a while after I contacted him he and I exchanged many emails in which we tried to piece together what had been happening in our lives while his wife and my husband spent time together. We also spoke on the phone. OWH knew that my marriage was struggling because I was unhappy and wanted to leave. I made the decision to stay for my children. I loved my H but that love had been badly affected by what I had found out. My H, who had had the affair because it was fun and exciting - and almost undetectable - was now horrified at what he had done to his happy marriage. He had no clue how to put things right and so, between my misery and his regret, we were floundering. In no way could we as a couple, or my H on his own, have been described as "doing fine" and yet that is what OWH told her.

He did that because he had just found out not only about this 3.5-year affair (which was still continuing at an EA level, making it nearly 4 years) but also another 4-year affair earlier in his by then 24-year marriage. He had found that that his W had had sex with her married driving instructor in the back of a van from roughly 10-14 years of marriage, and that this man would not leave his wife, as his wife (OW) had wanted. The same scenario had happened with my H. Their affair started as something on the side for both of them, but she still wanted out of her marriage (at 20-24 years now) and asked my H to leave with her, which he wouldn't do. Her H was so hurt by his new discoveries that he mixed some truth - that these men used her for excitement- with some lies - that my H was happily moving on. It was much more complicated than our moving on; I had tried to hold things together at home and I had tried to "love" my H back to faithfulness, so he had been having masses of love and good sex, a well-run home and well cared-for children with me, while enjoying the (by then only emotional) affair with her. We could hardly have been described as happy, but her H told her that my H had gone back to his perfect life without a backward glance because he wanted to hurt his wife as she had hurt him, by humiliating her and making her feel cheap.

It's very likely that your H wants to do this to you. I doubt very much that, after emails with the BW, he thinks or knows that OM's life is fine. For the reasons I gave in my previous email, their marriage is not fine. Your H probably knows this but wants to hurt you. Can you try and rise above that, for now?

I wish you the best with your recovery. Just, please, don't make indirect, unwitting or any other kind of comparison between your life now and his BW's.

Sugar.

My guidance was tempered. It wasn't malicious or attacking. I said something that needed to be said about OMW. I can see that it hurt, but we should not avoid giving specific advice because it might hurt, if it's justified.

Imagine this same attitude in other life situations

Your boss says to you: "Your performance is sub-par and your work evaluation will reflect this."

You respond: "Maybe tomorrow will be different."

You say to your child: "You are getting poor grades because you are not doing your work."

Your child responds: "Maybe tomorrow will be different."

You call your bank to complain about errors made on your account: "There are charges on my account that are not mine!"

The bank worker responds: "Maybe tomorrow will be different."

Who is going to make tomorrow different? Are you? What can you do today to make tomorrow different?

PS: Have you spoken to your physician about your depression?

SugarC

I was talking in general. Do you have a guilty conscience? Thin skinned? Both?

Both, TheRoad, and often, but not about that post.

Were you really talking in general? You really were not talking about me? Who else, on this thread were you referring to?

L4

He's 8-years younger than me, BTW.

So if his wife is 3 years younger than him that would give his wife a 11 year advantage on you. Your husband has a 9 year disadvantage to the OM on the other hand, and is smaller. Does that bother H?

IMHO, we men live through comparison, except the ones who have every category maxed out in which case, they make casual remarks about how it dosen't really matter. I suspect OM was in that category.

God Bless
NJ

Yes.
Ain't saying.

I've been so not wanting to do this -- I do not want to become dependent on drugs like this. But I just made an appointment for Thursday morning.

I haven't really thought about who has what advantages where. FOM's BW is actually a few months older than him, same year in school. My H and the FOM are different in appearance and in personality. FOM is nothing like the guys I used to be drawn to. FOM said that my "life experience" was one of the things that attracted him to me -- he said that he liked my confidence, "worldliness", and varied interests. Said the older age thing actually excited him. All lies anyway so it doesn't matter.

2 Qs for you experts:

1.) Our kids are 7 and 5. I've read throughout the forums here and from Dr. H that we need to tell our kids. My H and I know we have to tell the kids something to explain why Daddy needs to leave for periods of time, Mama is crying, and why we keep having grown-up time. H and I are still together so what exactly should we tell children this young about my PA and/or our marriage? I accept that they will eventually know about my betrayal, but what do we disclose now?

2.) My H is asking me to keep some things we're sharing between just the two of us. I have honored these requests but find I really need to talk about a few things, including some things he's asked me to keep private. I don't have my therapist any more. So while this may seem like a silly question considering all that I've already disclosed here, I want to make sure I'm doing everything right for a FWW. Is it violating his trust if I talk to y'all about matters he's asked we keep just between us?

Sorry... One more Q... If my H refuses to do the EN questionaire, how can I learn what his ENs are? I've learned some things about him in the last few weeks that I didn't know before -- which is sad considering we've known each other for over 25 years. Based on these new discoveries, I don't feel right assuming I know his ENs at all. Suggestions on how to go about learning what they really are?

A spouse should not control what is said between a patient and her councelor. He took away your C because of money. I had asked how tight was the money. You never answered. Being you are getting counciling her how can you get help if there are things you need to talk about. You need to stand up and continue your IC. Even if you can only afford every other week or once a month.

L4, Dr H recommends telling children when there is an ONGOING AFFAIR so they can be guided through the holocaust. Your affair is over so I can think of no good reason to tell them. That would certainly be up to you and your H, but all the usual reasons to tell kids do not exist in your case.

Does he know you post here? I would tell him and just see how he feels about it. You are entirely anonymous here after all, and we are on the side on your marriage. He could come here too if he wants.

I believe we can afford it regardless. My H makes a good living. He just doesn't want to sacrifice some of our lifestyle now that I'm unemloyed. He's never been a fan of therapy and sees my joblessness as a reason for me not to be able to go. (I actually think it's more about controlling me, something he does a lot of.) I feel differently, but am having trouble standing up to him about it since I'm no longer contributing to the finances. I'll see if he can agree to me going at least every other week. Thanks.

I've mentioned this site to him twice now. He says he doesn't need books, discussion forums, therapy, websites, or anyone else to tell him how to fix his/our problems. He's okay with me doing my thing. He's never asked exactly what I divulge here. And I haven't offered other than to say Dr. H and the boards have been a great source of help these past several months and especially since my disclosure. He seems fine with that.

If you had a toothache would you see a dentist? If you had conjunctivitis, would you see your PCP? If you broke your ankle, would you go to the ED? Mental health is just as important as physical health.

I say it would not be a violation but an IC would be just the ticket. You are married; the money is 1/2 yours and I wouldn't call therapy an extravagant expense.

Antidepressants are not addictive. There is no weakness in helping control the imbalance of serotonin in your brain. In fact, it is weaker to wish it away or ignore it than to treat it. I am glad you are going - you will be too.

Well, you probably have an idea of what they are not:

• mopey
• clingy
• codependent
• introverted
• miserable

For gosh sakes, L4, you write this about the OM:I am willing to bet your H liked that about you too.

Try to be more upbeat. Have fun. I know you are a wreck on the inside but project confidence and spirit. Remind him that your smile can light up a room. Heck yes, be there for him. He will let you know how much he will accept. But be there for you too.

Minimize the R talks and only talk about the A if he brings it up first.

Is he still out of town? Can you surprise him with something special upon his return? I am sure the kids would love to be involved - make a banner and tape it visible from the front door. Occasionally send him upbeat text messages while he is away.

I just sent H a text message. He gets home late Thursday. Thanks for the pep talk, Sh0cked.

Something I haven’t shared yet here… My H and I have been making the most amazing love since my confession. It is the strangest thing. SF is definitely one of my top ENs and was something my H didn’t seem to really care about. I remember a big fight last spring where he said perhaps he’ll just have to get Viagra because he doesn’t want it like I do and doesn’t understand why I can’t understand that. Since we started drifting apart 5 years ago, we would go literally months without sex. Since I started being more vocal about my need for it last December or so, we got it up to about 2 to 3 times a month. Better in quantity, but when it happened, it usually was over quickly, no cuddling, no foreplay – none of the affection that I like to go with it.

But since I told him about the PA… The first time we had been up for 4 hours talking, just 4 days after my confession. He crawled into the guest bed with me and we held each other. Then he started coming on to me and I didn’t know what to make of it. He kept stating over and over that he didn’t know why he was doing this. I stopped him and said, “Then don’t.” But he said he really wanted too. We’ve been together about 6 times since. Every time it was initiated by him. And I’ve been swept away by it.

But there’s another side to it. Once we’re done – whether it’s 20 minutes later or the next morning, he’ll state that I have to understand that his coming on to me can’t give me any hope. His advances and time with me are not to give me false expectations that we’re going to stay together.

I’ve told H numerous times that if he has any regrets about our intimacy, please tell me and I’ll do my part to make sure we don’t get into a position where it’s going to happen. With everything we’re going through I don’t want to confuse him or us. I know for me one moment I’m feeling utterly connected to my H in the most intimate way, then shortly afterward he’s back to ignoring me, being angry, calling me names, or crying from hurt.

It seems that in all of this we’re living the ultimate expressions of best and worst between a couple. I've read dozens of posts on this website and I tend to see more that a BS wants little to no physical interation with their WS -- not the opposite that we're experiencing. Is what's happening here in any way normal?

You're not just "a couple". You're a couple in early recovery.

And NOTHING you've written about your recovery (so far) is out of the ordinary.

You're doing fine and things you've said you are are worried about are average for your time line.

Antidepressants are not addictive (no street value!). Anti-D's saved my sanity during recovery. Once you find one that works for you, stay on it at least 6-12 months.

Our recovery sex life took off like a sky rocket (like yours) - and most of it was angry sex - but it was still good

When he tells you making love with you does not mean he is promising anything - it is a message to himself that he can still choose to leave you if he needs to. But, with every sex act that is (WOW) his heart is drawn closer to you. It's a painful joy for him.

Have as much sex as he wants. It's good for the recovery - even if he's angry afterwards.

A couple of suggestions here.

First, try filling out the ENQ as if you were him. You've been together long enough to have a pretty good idea about how he thinks and even how he feels on much of it.

Secondly, don't give up on him ever filling out the ENQ. You are still very early in the process. If you can figure out enough of what he needs and accomplish it over time so that he begins to feel real commitment to the relationship again, it might be possible to bring the ENQ up again. But you have to do it so that you are helping him get what he wants and not presenting it as a way to help you, if that makes any sense. He has to buy it as you doing for him or he won;t see much point in it.

Also if you put the rest of MB into practice for a while and can show him that it does work, he might be able to let down his guard about the rest a little.

Now keep in mind that I'm not talking about next week here, or even next month. This will take a lot longer than you think it should. You will still be dealing with this over a year from now and that is if he is on board with recovery.

As for your more recent question...

A honeymoon period is not uncommon at all. Even before I got a commitment to NC from my wife (in our case OM lived 400 miles away and she couldn't actually see him) it was like we were teenagers again....It was anywhere, any time for a month or so. I'd say we averaged about 10 times per week for about 5 or 6 weeks. :MrEEk: Of course at our age, we both knew we couldn't keep that pace up for long. :crosseyedcrazy: So then it slowed down to a more reasonable pace and then after I got sick and we dealt with that for about 6 months we were back to the old once a month whether either of us wants it or not routine... (This actually has more to do with having a house full of people than anything, BTW since DD is here with her daughter and DS is now living in the basement - so glad I paid all that money so he could get a degree...His pizza delivery skills are so much better than before he went to school for 4 years... )

Now I'm going to take you to the tool shed for a minute.

This pissed me off when I read it. (you wrote this on another thread in GQII):




Is everyone you know a totally unforgiving jerk?
Apparently so ..... This is a backhanded insult to those who love you, and as such needs be pointed out to you.

You really need those anti-depressants.

I am married to a man who had a 2 year romantic EA/PA - and trust me, he is NOT "forever" labeled a liar and a cheater. If he said this, I'd be pissed off at him, because it would be a statement of his opinion that I am unable to forgive.

It's called Hysterical Bonding. A need to reconnect, bond, reclaim what was their's.
Does not happen to everyone but HB is quite common. Usually lasts for awhile, sometimes for six month's.

Move back to the same bed. Initiate some on your own.

Thanks for the chuckle, Mark.

I have phenomenal support with my family, my best friend, and even my H's mother. My sister said pretty much the same just last night, Pepperband. And you're both right. Hard when your H calls you these things repeatedly. I know he's hurt and it's coming from anger and pain, but it's coming nonetheless and it's been difficult looking at life beyond the moment. Working on it though. And the ADs are coming. No shame there any more.

I'll do anything to stay away from your tool shed going forward. I don't like it in there.

I have a loud bark and a soft bite

Here is some recovery activity you may want to try.

Compliment and brag about your husband to other people. Especially to other people who gossip.

"My sweetie just melts my butter."
"I just can't wait to get home and have H's arms around me."
"H is just about the cutest guy ever when he's in his jeans."
"H is just so smart, he amazes me every day."

I mean lay it on THICK and STICKY. Go overboard bragging about H to others.
To his mom. To his friends. To your kids' teachers. To the car mechanic. To your neighbor. To the kids. Everyone you meet. Make some passing remark about how much you admire H.

Plant those seeds of admiration all over the place.

"Hey Fred, you wife said the nicest thing about you the other day."
"Huh? :MrEEk: Really?"

Right after SF - admiration is usually number 2 EN of many men.

Fill his tank - it will eventually dampen his anger.

I've never had a problem talking openly about how attractive I find my H -- in various situations from skiing on the slopes or just standing in line at the grocery store. I don't know that I've offered my thoughts to strangers like our mechanic or my kids' teachers, but I'll try to work on that. Thanks.

Stinkin' awesome. Oh, L4, I know it doesn't feel like it but you are doing so well. Progress is measured in weeks or months not days...

kewl

L4,

I've never had a problem talking openly about how attractive I find my H -- in various situations

Also feed back to him the times your friends have said he's handsome or good looking etc, major ego booster.

In a conversation the other day on attractiveness I could name 100 or so people who have said my wife was good looking, hot or beautiful, or even tried to pick up my wife while I was standing there. My wife said no one had ever said the same about me, yet she perceives herself as equal to me, sigh.

God Bless
NJ

Tell him that therapy is not an expense. It is an investment. Doing the therapeutic work now will make you healthier/your marriage healthier so that you will not have to battle similar storms in the future.

Sort of like maintenance/diagonostic/repair work on a vehicle.

Some maintenance has to be done on regular basis. Sometimes, while doing maintenance, they find something that needs to be repaired. Then you have to fix that item if you want the car to run optimally.

K... Got my anti-Ds today. And made an appointment with my IC for Tuesday. I agree it's important that I keep my mental health in check. This is important. Thanks for knocking that into my head, everyone.

Now if I could just get the physical in check too. I'll work on getting back on that treadmill next.

Last night my H and I signed up for an IM service so we could chat online while he's working on the road. The conversation was caring, direct, and honest. He again asked tough questions, but the demeanor and tone of his questions were calm:
* He is worried about me and how I'm getting through this.
* He told me that my sorries don't stick with him. He hopes they mean something to him someday, but they still mean nothing to him. He knows I believe I'm sorry, but he can't accept my apologies.
* He wished he was sitting next to me talking with me, instead of 800 miles away. He wanted to be with me.
* He said he thinks I wanted something or someone else from the early stages of our relationship and that he was just a safe harbor -- not what I really wanted or needed.
* He said he wants to help me sort out how I could love him yet have an affair, something so counter to who I am and how I otherwise have lived my life.
* Said if he was an objective outsider looking at what I've done -- pre-M and recently 13+ years into our M -- he believes I'm not happy with my decision to marry him. He said he truly believes that I chose to settle with him. I may have loved him but he thinks I wasn't supposed to marry him.
* He talked again about how he has this inner voice that he has chosen not to listen to when it comes to me because he loved me too much. But the voice told him years ago that we shouldn't get married, which is why it took him so long to propose. (We knew each other 11+ years before we wed.) The voice is again telling him to leave me.
* He knows he needed me more than I ever needed him.

Throughout I kept telling him that I did and do love him. That I married him because I knew our life was meant to be together -- he's the one.

The conversation ended well, in supportive and caring comments.

Time has passed and he's on a plane coming home now. But I've been thinking... What if he's right and when it came to the biggest decision of my life -- whom I'm going to spend the rest of my life with -- I didn't know what I was doing?

Is this kind of thinking from him good or bad? Is he done? I know you can't answer for him. This is more me thinking outloud through my fingertips about where he is. It's like he's trying to make peace with the fact that maybe we aren't supposed to be together. And that saddens me so much.

Hey L4,

I'm just checking in and saw the last few days of posting here on your thread. Have a couple of thoughts for you.

1. Your kids. I think advice from folks will be all over the place about this and ultimately only you and your H can decide between the two of you exactly how to handle this. I'd suggest that since you don't fall into the category of needing to expose (because NC has been established) that you hold off on making a decision to tell them until things settle down. We're going through some issues with our kids right now, so maybe I'm not the one to give out advice, though!

What we told our kids was that Dadda had hurt Mamma's feelings and that we both love them and that will never change. Dadda is saying he's sorry and fixing his mistake, but sometimes Mamma feels sad or angry at Dadda. No further details unless they asked (and they have) or if something needed to be divulged for some specific reason (and it has). Don't underestimate what they already know, though. Dr. Spock says to think about what you assume your child knows (about anything) and then double that at least.

2. Anti-depressants. Good for you. I was just diagnosed with a hormonal imbalance and just taking B-6 for my mood makes me feel like a new person. You DO need to deal with what you have done and the fallout from it. You DON'T need to do it with a chemical imbalance making it harder.

3. Sex. Yay for you! We went through the same thing and I felt like a total freak wanting my H so much after what he'd done to me. I'm glad I did, though, because it established again in my mind the 'married-ness' of our relationship. It lasted for us about 6 weeks and then faded, but it served a really good purpose in bringing us at least physically closer.

4. The questionnaire. I'd just tell your H that even though HE might not need help from therapists, etc. (after all, he was doing all the right things before D-day, right?), YOU need help. Explain that you no longer trust your own ability to see truth and the right path and that his filling out the questionnaire will help YOU to make sense of things again. Just a thought. Same deal with your seeing the IC. You've been so eloquent here about how you can't get a handle on HOW you could have been that person who did those things.....when you relied on your own judgement it led nowhere good.....you need help resetting your ability to make good decisions.

5. About marrying in the first place. You can go around and around and around with this all day long. What you DID decide was to marry him. You then decided to have a family with him. And now you are deciding to continue to be with him. What you were 'supposed' to do with your life becomes irrelevant in the actual living of it, and your choices are more powerful than your supposed 'destiny'. I'm a Harry Potter fan and I love what Rowling has to say about the power of life choices in the difference between Voldemort and Harry: Voldemort was destined to be in Slytherin and accepted destiny's path; Harry had that destiny, too, if he chose to take it, but he chose Gryffindor instead. Ditto the whole 'investing the prophesy with power' storyline. (Nerd moment over)

By the way, I hope you did understand what SugarCane was trying to do in drawing a fictionalized (and all-too-based-in-fact) rendition of what a BS thinks as D-day crashes over her/him. The facts may be different, but the idea is the same: what one believed to be true and real and solid is now no longer real, true or solid. Whether or not the betrayer 'bad-mouthed' the betrayed, the betrayed will think it happened. The betrayed will never know all the details of every intimate conversation, there will always be nightmares about what did get said, and there will always be a fear that THAT intimate conversation was somehow more real that the one going on now, if that makes any sense. SHE is the victim here. (I'm not sure I made SC's comments any clearer, mostly I wanted to voice support; it was a great post)

By the way, it takes a long time for the betrayed to realize that the A WAS NOT ABOUT HIM/HER. I had this pounded in to me by some good folks here many times. In my experience of the days just after d-day, it was incomprehensible to me that my WH's actions were not somehow directed specifically against me. I had not checked out of the marriage as he had; my mind was always on what was happening between us, good or bad, and it took a loooooooooooong time to understand that he just stopped thinking about me before the A. It was never about me. It will take your H a while to get that, too, I think.

Hope his homecoming is happy. Make him feel wanted and welcome.....even if you don't get immediate results, remind yourself that you are making an investment in the furure of your marriage and family.

Thinking of you lots,
Gwen

PS: Mark, I laughed at your comment about the college degree. After my senior recital (music major), Dad asked me what I planned to do with my very expensive training in party-planning and execution. I still give very good parties, but I also, finally, teach music 10 years after the degree.....have hope!

Thank you for checking in, M2B, and for your sound perspective. As always, your insights (as well as those of everyone else) are very much appreciated. I'm grateful for your continued support in my H's and my journey, I do understand where SC was coming from and it was was helpful, and I am willing to give my H the time he needs to process. I can be impatient and that is so unfair to H as he goes through this. I've had months to process what I've done coupled with the fact that I was not the victim. I can't put a timeline on my H. Y'all may have to remind me of that now and then.

We learned that H's step-mother has moved out and she and H'-s father are separating. (My FIL's 3rd marriage.) That's adding to my H's stress and to our concerns about our kids. They really love their step-Gma and this will be hard for them. And we haven't even talked with them yet about our problems. (Oyvey!)

H got home last night and after a nice hug, he avoided me. He made himself a snack, watched a little TV with me then shut himself in his office. He's been in our bedroom, sleeping and resting virtually all day. And tomorrow morning he leaves for the weekend for a family thing with his dad and brothers. (Harumph) We're getting no time together. I don't want to hover and be in his face, but I don't want him to be away. I've told him this but he says he needs to get away. I'm worried because this was one of our problems in our relationship -- not spending enough time together. I guess I'm unsure when I should push for together time and when I need to give him his space.

Wish I was a mind-reader...

If you were, you would probably be even more confused!

L4,

I think it is sometimes difficult for women to understand that men use alone time to process feelings and problems. I understand that women like to talk problems out with others. To men this can seem like endless whining, I have teenage daughters so I get to see both ways of processing.

I don't think your H is necessarily working up to leaving you, he may just need the alone time to figure it all out for himself.

Okay, L4, long time-no post. How are you doing?

L4,

Read and reread 6years' post to you. He is giving you the straight skinny on us guys.

You said a few things in your post that I thought I might comment on. You said
This is good, it means he is processing just as 6years has told you.



These statements are good things, it shows that in his heart he has deep love of you. The next statements show his deepest fears and these YOU are going to have to answer honestly for yourself and for him.



I think this is something that many men fear. As we work and are away from home, and life goes on without us, we begin to feel/fear that we are simply a paycheck. Along with life moving on, quite often the affection, the SF, the intimacy of the relationship gets put on the back burner. Us guys interpret this as "they don't want nor need us."

Your affairs reinforce this deep seeded fear. So what do you need him in your life for? You clearly can find other men to introduce into your life, what makes him special to YOU? You need to answer that question for yourself and then you need to answer it for him. "because I love you" is NOT going to get it done. Love is an action and your actions have not been all that loving in the past. Do you see what I am digging at here?



Coupled with his previous comments you can easily see why this is soooo important to him. He will need to know what you have changed within you, to protect him and your marriage. He will need to see where HE failed and I KNOW he feels he was NOT good enough for you. He needs to know what love is to you, given that your actions clearly showed you did NOT love him. What has changed L4? That is what he is after. What insights have you gained?



Being a rational man, anyone outside being rational would wonder the same thing and arrive at the same conclusion. You see here is a problem for you to consider. If he felt you were a good person, and that you had good boundaries and morals, then clearly for you to violate these you must have been desperate to get away from him and that you did just settle. He knows he is not the best looking, the brightest, the wealthiest, the anythingist. He is just a guy like many others, nothing special. He knows this about himself very well. The damage to his self-esteem is reinforcing this and you need to find a way to counter it.




I don't think I have to say much about this comment. He sensed your first affair, even if he could not put his finger on it. He has experienced you latest affair. His voice is telling him based on the data that he would be better off gone. Why? Because the voice doesn't know if you have changed your perspective on him, if you have changed your boundaries, if you have changed your views about him, and finally his little voice is trying to protect him from the pain of being rejected...again.

You have to consider this and hopefully address it.




This goes back to the voice in his head. He knows he was/is very very vulnerable to you, he needs you, you don't need him. You do things for his life, that he does not do for yours. Therefore, he is in the weak position and the voice is trying to protect him. You can bet lots of money he is and has been very very uncomfortable living in the position of the "weak one", knowing he was really at your mercy. It seems he was right, the question is he right now?




He needs much more than you telling him this. He needs details, he needs the concerns above addressed. He needs to hear what you have said, but he needs to know more. He needs to understand what the balance of power in this marriage is going to be and he did not like it much the way it was. Some more things for you to consider.




You do need to be thinking, and you need to answer these questions for yourself before you can honestly answer them for him. It will be your call. I hope you understand his statements better after my suggestions. He is trying to protect himself because he KNOWS how much power you have over him, and he doubts that you really need him. If you do need him in your life you need to tell him why, and not just that you love him. He is going to need something to hang on to, and he knows you told you loved him while you were having an affair.

I do hope that something I have said is of help to you.

God Bless,


JL

Probably helped more than this one poster!
:happythanksgiving:

JL,

Excellent post.

L4, it sure seems to me that your husband is very thoughtful and also that he cares about you and your happiness. One of the things that the A told me about my W was that she did not care about my happiness. That seems minor in the whole scheme of the A but it really stuck with me over the years, that I did not count very much to my W.

Everything you H is saying tells you that you and your happiness count to him. I'm wondering if there is a way you can give him that same feeling. I don't mean the feeling that you need him for financial and domestic support but the actual feeling that you care about his happiness for it's own sake.

Could you find a way to make that clear to him, if it is true? It is going to be hard but I think you can do it.

This is fantastic, JustLearning. Thank you very much. I've never thought of it this way -- that he feels weak and that I have the power. I've been thinking just the opposite. You've provided amazing insight. Thank you for taking the time to spell it out for me.

Thanks, 6YL. I hope you're right.

How much time do you have?

We've been everywhere several times and back again. I'm still so confused I haven't even been able to update y'all here because I feel like what I write is going to be scrambled and rambling. But I'll try.

Last Friday H wrote me an email he titled "A Long Good-bye". It explained how he is just a simple man and how I need someone who's more colorful, more layered, and can offer me more excitement. He again talked about how he thinks I don't care for him, how I never loved him, and how he was blinded by his love for me to see how deeply troubled I was and our marriage was. I read the email and went to him. We held each other, cried, and talked for 90 minutes, with him saying over and over that it's okay and he wants me to be happy. And me saying over and over that I want to be happy with him and that he can't say good-bye. FWIW, we ended the discussion with sex right there in the TV room.

Saturday morning he approached me and said I have his permission to contact the OM and that he will not tell the OM's BW if I do. He said that he has no allegiance to her and I am welcome to pursue the OM with no consequence from my H. (What?!) I told him absolutely not. I do not want to have a relationship with the OM and I am married to H. H kept saying, "I'm just saying if you change your mind, I won't stand in your way." I thanked him and told him his offer wouldn't be acted on. That I'm his W and I am married to H. I don't care what happens to OM.

He spent the weekend doing things with his dad and brothers. We didn't talk again until Monday night.

Monday he asked me if I ever felt sorry for him. I said no. He kept asking me over and over to come clean with him if I've ever pitied him. I said that I didn't. I felt he was handling things with great dignity. He then retrieved a notebook of mine. It was one I used last summer along with a bunch of relationship books and self-help manuals as I was trying to figure out what's going on with me. I have taken all of my things out of hiding and have kept my office open so he's open to snoop all he wants. Well in my notebook, there was an exercise that said to write all the things that made me think I needed to leave the relationship. Among all the things I wrote, was a line "I feel sorry for him." Now, I don't remember what I felt sorry about. Was it that he didn't know about the affair? That he didn't know how close I was to walking out? That his health was so bad? That his job is so stressful? But he hung on that one statement as me yet again being a liar. I really don't remember thinking I feel sorry for him as a sad sap, which is how he took it. Virtually everything else on the list (and it was brutal) I had told him -- how I thought he was selfish, how he undermines me, how I don't like how he controls our money, how scarey his temper is... Most everything else he knew yet he was stuck on that one sentence that didn't have any definition to it. I told him how I have never regretted marrying him but I do regret not having worked harder to either save us or split up 3 or 4 years ago when things started going bad. I shared with him more details about the OM that he asked about. I even told him he had to throw away a brand new shirt that H had just bought (and looked great in) because it too closely resembled the shirt OM was wearing when he professed his attraction to me. We talked for 4 hours Monday night. And again, ended up making love. And he let me stay in our bedroom for the night.

Tuesday he asked me more about the list of his faults, and said it really hurts him to see that. I told him that I know it does and I'm sorry he read it. He said he knows I told him those things, but to see it in writing makes it more real and he can't believe I felt that about him -- my husband. He said in the overall scheme of things with the affairs, it's a little thing, but it still really hurts to know that's where I was. I told him that is where I WAS in August. But once we started going to MC and in the last few weeks as we've been really talking, many of those concerns have been reversed. I asked him if he wants a list of all the things I do like. He just smiled. I'm going to do that for him and asked if he could consider not reading the list any more. I won't take it away from him because I don't want to interfere in what he needs to do through all this. I just asked that he consider putting the notebook away or tearing out those pages.

Tuesday night we got into a pretty heated discussion where he shared with me that he doesn't think I care about his needs. That when he's hurting and when he wants my empathy, that he doesn't feel that he gets it from me like he needs. It was really eye-opening. I was dumbfounded by how deeply he felt about past incidents and how I handled them.

So he asked me to send him an email about why I feel it necessary to lie (or used to anyway) and why I won't do it going forward. He also wanted to know how I was going to meet some of his needs and what some of my needs are. (No, he still won't do the ENQ.) So I did. I also emailed him that I needed a break Wednesday if we could -- that I wanted to be with him, but could we avoid conversation about the A, my cheating, my lies, our relationship and just do something mindless like watch Top Chef? He responded with the following: "I am really happy to see that you are growing stronger each day. I'm not sure if its the drugs your taking, but I believe it has more to do with your own inner healing. I know I have been praying for your spirits to rise. I am also aware I have delivered plenty of pain on your doorstep lately. I'm glad you're sticking up for yourself, and I'm glad you're here for me. It is nice to see you smiling more often. We are both exhausted."

One thing that's bothering me... He seems really obsessed with my body. He told me the other day that he couldn't believe how hot I looked this summer when I was back to my high school weight. Now let me put this in perspective... I'm 42, 5'5", and gave birth to 2 kids. My Weight Watchers ideal weight is 138. Due to my stress and gum surgery that I had (couldn't eat solid foods for 3 weeks), I got down to 115 and in many people's opinions, I looked emaciated. I was down to a size 2. I'm now a size 6. Most of our adult relationship I've been an 8. Yesterday during an IM he asked if I lost my weight this last year for the OM. I said the truth -- no. That I lost it for me and if he recalls, I started the program before the A even started, but yes, having the OM tell me I looked great was definitely added incentive. We were talking about my body journey and my H wrote "You're heavy now and I still want to do you." I was heartbroken. I'm a size 6, 128 pounds. I couldn't believe it. He started back-peddling, saying he thinks I look great. That he thought I had said I'm heavy and he was only repeating what I had said. That he finds me sexy, etc. But it really hurt. He apologized. I told him that whether I'm a size 4 or a size 24, I need him to think I'm beautiful. Later, as if to make me feel better, he stated that one of the problems when I was too skinny is I that I lost a lot of my chest too. I said, "Well it's either skinny and no boobs, or heavy with boobs." He said, "You can fix that. Just get implants. That would be great." And he was serious. (He's brought this up before too in the last few years since I've had our babies.) Will I ever be perfect enough for him? I have body issues and big-time self-esteem issues. And he knows this. Yet he still has to get his remarks in.

This is a tough road. I'm still in the guest room but we're continuing to talk a lot. I'm learning more about his hurts, concerns, and desires, and this is good. I feel very close to him, but I also feel it's time to put up my boundaries. (Or is it too soon to go there?) I'm being clear that if we are to stay together, we have a lot of work to do and I have needs also -- that I won't go back to where we've been. He feels the same way. The questions continue and I'm being radically honest. He's still in the discovery/processing stage. He needs to decide if he wants to try to trust me again -- if he thinks he can ever believe me again.

So that's where we are. In limbo. Still struggling. Still working. Still supporting each other. Still processing. We haven't put a time limit on it. Right now we're both just doing what we can. He said he still can't forgive me and he doesn't know if he can stay. I told him if he wants to try to regain trust and respect, I'm here.

L4,

It seems you are making progress. In regards to the body comments, men do care about looks and he probably does not believe that you did not lose weight to look hot for OM.

I have reread you comments and I think you really really need to convince your H that you care about his happiness and his feelings. He is telling you directly that he does not think you care about his feelings and you jumped right to your own concerns about body image.

How can you convince him that his feelings are important to you? I'm thinking you could offer to do the implants and make it clear you would be doing it for him.

L4,

Given what you have just posted please go back to my previous post, do you see what I am talking about?

He is struggling with himself and where he fits in all of this. He is even offering to let you go back to OM, which is nuts, but gives you an idea of how he feels he fits with your desires.

Trust me your weight is, as 6years has said, is something he notices but I would bet good money it is because he associates your changes to the affair and what you were willing to do for OM. Most men are really not as sensitive to it as women are.

You said many things about him, but the one thing most men cannot handle well is pity. I have been thinking about this and I have to say upon reflection that most guys I know, KNOW very realistically that they are "simple" men without great looks. But, the one thing most men have is pride, and for someone to feel sorry for them deeply wounds their pride. Hence his focus on this one thing. He is probably accepting all of the other negative things you have said as true and how you feel about him, but pity???? Oh Man! that hurts.

Just thoughts I hope something helps.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Let me take this one step further. Mercy sex hurts men as well, and thus the issues might extend to what happened with OM and what you did to coverup your affair by having sex with him although really wanting OM. Us guys have a real hard time with that one as well. It is very much like pity.

PSS: There was something else I wanted to say. You quoted him as saying You said you were heart broken. I look at this comment completely different from you. He is saying you are not a 2 but he still desires you. YOu could be an 8 and he still desires you. You are heart broken because he desires you????

Now I will confess, after all of the years I have been married I have no idea what a 2, 6, or 8 is other than even numbers divisible by 2.

The sex we've been having is far from mercy sex. He has been initiating it and we've both been enjoying it very much. We've been doing things we've never done before and elaborating on things we've always liked. We made love rarely before my confession so while it's very odd, neither of us are complaining about this change in course the last 3 weeks.


It was the "you're heavy now" part. The fact that he thought I was heavy when I weigh 30 pound less than where I was a year ago. It goes back to 7 years ago when my husband said he's not attracted to me and doesn't find me sexually desireable when I"m heavy. He told me this when I was a size 12 - 14, after I had given birth to our son. ("I can't get it up when you look like that" is how he put it.) So when he mentions anything even remotely negative about my body image, I go back to the thoughts that he doesn't find me desireble. A knee-jerk reaction. And again, he did apologize for it so we're good.


Good point. For reference, models are size 0 or maybe a 2 on a bad day. The average American woman is a size 14. Marilyn Monroe is said to have been a 12 - 14. And yes, you can always divide by 2.

Thanks again for your comments, JL.

The idea of putting foreign objects in my body for cosmetic reasons only frightens me. I've always been a believer that this is how God made me so I can only work with what I got. It's how I was when my H met me 25 years ago, and how I've always been. So for him to want me to undergo surgery and risk health problems just for a bigger chest for him to enjoy seems like he's being selfish. Or am I being overly sensitive? Cost has much to do with not doing it too. Overall, this isn't important so no need to spend time on it. I was just giving an example of one of the little things he does/says that makes me self-conscious.

And I agree that I can tell him the change in my looks was for me but that he won't believe it. That makes sense.

Yesterday H walked into the room where I was and he told me he is done. He wants a divorce. Earlier in the day he had asked me who said "I love you" first in my affair and I admitted it was me. H said that was the deal-breaker. It didn't matter that OM said it back. It mattered that I said it first.

I held it together for a while but then started fighting his decision. Telling him how things have changed for us so much in the last weeks for the better. How we're different today than we were back in April. How the A is over, OM has been out of my life for 5 months, and that OM will never be back in it. How I know now that I didn't love OM but it was all part of the infamous "fog". How I'm married to H and I love H and I want to be with H.

After an hour of hugging and crying, H said he just knows that he can't give me what I need. That I must feel I need to go outside of our marriage to fill the holes he can't fill. And he can't live with me knowing that I'm capable doing that. (All going right to what Just Learning has been saying.) I told him we can take steps and affair-proof our relationship, take care of each other's emotional needs, and neither of us will look elsewhere. I told him I will never cheat again and if I even feel remotely tempted, I will turn to H to help me. He said he feels like he's been in a 14-round fight and he just can't get up off the matt any more. I said that I'll lift him then. He said he knows he'll never be able to trust me. I asked him to let me prove that he can eventually. And I told him if he wants a divorce, he has to file. I'll have nothing to do with it.

He ends by saying last week he was 90% sure he is leaving me, and today he is 95%. I said it sounds like there is still a chance then. He said yes. There is a sliver of a chance he will change his mind.

Then, out of the blue, he shares with me that he has a fantasy of watching me sitting by myself in a restaurant in a sexy red dress. Just watching me. So I got a last-minute babysitter, and we went shopping for a red dress for me and all the things that go with it. He said I can only wear the dress for him. We came home and he let me sleep in our room all night.

Now back to daylight and he's accusing me of things that aren't true (of course he doesn't trust me), drilling more questions that I'm answering, and back to saying this isn't going to work. Ey-karumba! During the day he's one person, then at night he's another. It's fair, of course considering, and to be expected. But exhausting too because I literally don't know if he's staying or going. He even said this morning, "Do you think that I'm messing with your head? That I'm enjoying this?" I answered yes in a perverse way he's enjoying it. But I'm willing to put up with it if it means we're still together.

I sent him a list today of all the things I love about him and why I want to stay his wife. He thanked me for it and said it was very nice to read. I hope he refers to it often. And I'll be sure to tell him these things often as well.

L4,

H said he just knows that he can't give me what I need. That I must feel I need to go outside of our marriage to fill the holes he can't fill.

Sounds like he thinks he can't compete with the younger, taller does he make more money? OM.

I had mentioned it to you previously, but you dismissed it with a feminine wave of the hand, that competition really matters to men. We sometimes think in binary win or lose.

A major fear men have is of being replaced, because we know that women for the most part have more choice than we do, if a woman wishes to compromise herself on any given night she can.

From previous posts it does seem that your H is in the category of men who would be capable of getting lucky predictably, but in his case he chose not to.

God Bless
NJ

H makes more money. (We're financially in the black, I know OM is in the red.) H is better looking. OM is taller and younger. They're really pretty different from each other in a lot of respects. So you are probably right in that H feels it's a competition and he can't compete. I'm trying to reassure that he can and he's won. If he wants to stay...

L4,

You want to shock him??? Tell him he doesn't have to trust you. You and he can set up any checking he would like, you are game. You have nothing to hide therefore, he is free to check as much as he likes or wants.

You two are about what 6 months out on this thing. At about that time most BS's show a great deal of anger and start to really address their pain. Sometimes it is a bit later and sometimes it is a bit earlier. But, it comes.

Perhaps it has come for your H. I would suggest that perhaps you put your thoughts about him down on paper. Just as you did when making your deliberations a few years ago. But, just don't put thoughts with regard to his strengths and weaknesses, put down to the best of your knowledge why things have changed and how you see them now vs. how you used to see them.

He is haunted by his own failure. I know you see this but I don't think you fully realize how deep the sense of failure goes.
He feels he cannot compete. What he somehow needs to learn is he does not have to compete, what he needs to be is the man he is and your partner in life, the person you can lean on and he can lean on you.

I think given what he has focused on, he needs to see some of your thoughts in writing.

Just a thought.

God Bless,

JL

L4,

Just another thought. Have you ever acknowledged to your H that you KNOW he is afraid and that you are afraid as well. You know he is afraid he isn't good enough, and you are afraid he will leave you and not let you love him.

It is perhaps something you two could work on and help each other with...your fears.

They really are very much the same thing it seems to me.

God Bless,

JL

L4,

I'm wondering if there is some way you can address two issues at once. I think you H probably does feel inferior to the OM, I felt that way even though I am taller, better looking, make more money, am more educated, younger, physically more impressive and he was nearly impotent. I think men just feel that when their woman takes another man to bed. I also think he feels that you don't care about his feelings.

Perhaps you could switch the focus off of you're happiness and onto his in your next discussion. I know that if xW had ever had a serious discussion where she told me that my happiness was number one on her list of priorities, then I would have had a serious change in attitude toward her. If you can actually get him to see that you are focused on winning him back, not just taking him as the consolation prize it would help for sure.

When one partner has an A, then the other partner really does go to the bottom of the list of priorities. Usually they get just enough to keep them around but no more. I am sure that you did this to him.

I was 99.9% sure I was going to leave my husband after his affair - I'm not gone 13 years later!

THERE IS HOPE!

Look at this post

link

the meat of that post is:




You can reverse this as you talk to your wounded husband ...

I did NOT have my A because of any failure of yours
I had my A because I failed to protect myself where I was vulnerable
YOU have ZERO responsibility of my decision
I OWN my decision, and by doing so, I understand what it is about myself that I MUST change , no matter what happens to our marriage

I don't know what you decided to do in the month that has passed since your posting, but I hope you chose to respect your husband enough to be honest with him. What you chose to do is now a part of your life and a part of your marriage, whether you or your husband like that reality or not.
My husband had an emotional affair that had sexual aspects, though no sexual intercourse, with a good friend of ours. He worked with her and we were together as two couples nearly every weekend. They told me people at work gossiped that they were having an affair--they laughed in my face about it. It was while I was pregnant with our fifth child, and it went on about two years or so. On more than one occasion, we fought over the time he spent away from home union organizing with this woman, and I asked him if there was an affair. He denied. Six month ago, after 25 years, I was innocently cleaning out a closet and found a love note from her. In the insuring years, we moved to another area for 15 years, then returned to this area. My husband, in the insuring years, has become an ordained pastor. While he is a wonderful man, and does love me, I cannot get over the lies and deception that he kept hidden from me for 25 years. When confronted with the letter, he still denied what really went on until I met with the OW, who still lives in the area, although she and her husband divorced and she has recently remarried. When I confronted him with her confession, he began to deny some of her statements, but affirmed others, and told a bit more about the physical nature of the affair. He is remorseful, but he does not understand why I can't get over something that happened so long ago. I don't know if I can reconstruct our shattered relationship so long after the fact.
I hope you will not take the risk that your husband will not find out, as my husband did.

Hi L4,

It's been two years since our D-Day #4 and verifiable NC and there are occasions when I still think I cannot compete with OW.

But my H is always saying (and doing) things to help me heal, starting with educating both of us on the intensity of his violation and the months and years it will take for us to recover. Those times of my feelings of inferiority are diminishing now as we continue to progress.....2 years later.

It's only been a few weeks since you confessed to your H and he may be looking for a non-existent 'quick-fix'. Somehow he may need to be educated. Your continuing to do everything to help him heal will take more time. But he will start to get it if you don't give up or let him give up. My H's willingness to seek counseling (he set up all the appointments) helped us because I wanted the same thing. If your H is still reluctant to seek outside help, it is an obstacle, but not an unsurmountable one.

Keep seeking, venting here and doing what he needs to help him heal. Getting IC for you may help him come around once he begins to let down his defenses. Your positive changes and continued confidence may help his defenses diminish sooner.

Sorry they call this a recovery rollercoaster for a reason. Keep strapped on and the ride will become less bumpy eventually.

Ace

This was done a while ago. I've been transparant. He has cell phone records, full access to my office, cell phone, etc.

I confessed to my H four weeks ago. The OM and I ended the PA 6 months ago. So it's still all fresh for my H.

Good ideas, JL. I've been trying over and over to reassure him that he is the one I want and why. I think putting it in writing will be more effective. Thank you.

Hi, 6YL. Since my confession, my H's comfort (as best as possible) has been my priority, along with caring for my children. What we eat, where I go, what I do around the house, what I say, is all being done with my H in mind. My selfishness has come into play only when I've had to deal with my mental/emotional health, like seeing my IC and taking anti-Ds. I've encouraged him to do whatever he wants to do -- spend time with his family, go out with friends, play his guitar, be alone, be with me, ask me questions, watch football... We're actually working pretty well together and communicating very well. Whatever he needs to do to process and get through this I fully support. I support him and our marriage. And I've gone out of my way when the OM has come up to assure H that I have zero desire to be with nor correspond with the OM. OM is out of my life, whether or not my H chooses to stay with me. I tell H I want to stay married to him and why and I hope he wants to do the same with me.

I confessed to my H. He knows everything. Every dirty, disgusting detail. And he knows I'm extremely and deeply remorseful, doing whatever I can to restore our marriage and his faith in me.

Hi, Ace. Thanks for checking in.

This is what he wants. You're right. He's getting frustrated by this roller coaster.

He's still not willing to do IC nor MC with me.


I'm strapped in and white-knuckling it. Thank you.

L4,

I get that you are trying to make this work and so you are trying to give your H what you think he needs. However, that is different than letting him know that his happiness is your number 1 priority. He has clearly said that he is willing to let you go so you can be happy, I think you have a very solid understanding that your happiness matters to you H.

In reading what you have said, I would guess that he does not think or really feel that his happiness matters to you. Not just fixing the stuff you broke in the marriage but really communicating that his happiness matters.

Light bulb moment! I've had several of these moments thanks to everyone here, and another one just now, 6YL. I now understand what you're saying about helping him to understand that he is important to me and his happiness is important to me. Thank you.

L4,

I am glad to help if I can. My situation did not workout, but I hope yours does. My xW really did only care about her own happiness, but I think you are different.

Happy Thanksgiving

L4, it has been a while. How are you doing?

Well...

We're still doing a lot of talking, sharing, holding, crying, hurting... I'm really trying to let him know through words and actions that his happiness and comfort are important to me, a priority, along with the happiness and security of our children.

This last week H has been more definitive in using language that implies he will leave me. Things like, "Let's spend Thanksgiving at home since this will be our last one as a family," and "Our son is going to have a harder time with our divorce than our daughter," and "We're going to have to sell the house when we split." He also told me that when he leaves me he's going to fight for the kids. He doesn't think they should have two residences but have a single bedroom and just visit the other parent every other weekend or whatever the arrangement is. I told him then, that I will fight for the kids to be with me. He said because I'm the one who had the affair the least I could do is give up the kids to him and he'll promise I have access to them at all times. He has told me several times even since my confession that I'm a great mother and I told him I'm going to fight for them if I need to, especially since he travels at least once or twice every month on business. In a conversation yesterday I told him that based on how he's been talking the last several days I feel I need to protect myself and consult with a lawyer, just to know what my rights are if he tries to take the kids. He said he hasn't talked with an attorney yet and doesn't think I should either. I said I don't want to and I'm still in this marriage 100%, but his threats of taking our kids from me makes me feel I need to be prepared, as I don't know literally from one day to the next if I'm going to be served papers.

His brother's birthday party is this weekend. He told me today he doesn't think I should go with him, but he's not sure yet.

H told me two days ago he knows he'll never be able to trust me again. That he'll never have that with me again and therefore believes he has to leave me as a marriage without trust isn't a marriage. I told him give it time and maybe I can restore that. That I want to try. He said he doesn't keep liars in his life -- that he removes from his life anyone who has ever lied to him. Therefore he can't see how he could stay with me. It's against his principals.

Sunday morning we were talking and recalling some of our very good times together, including our kids. I asked him if he could take it all back -- meaning not have married me -- would he? He answered yes. He'd take it all back if he could. It tore my heart out. He's mentioned it before, that even if it meant not having our kids, he would go back to 16 years ago and walk away from me. I don't know what to say to this.

Out of the blue yesterday he said he is going to write a letter to the OM and the OM is not going to like what it says. I didn't respond at all.

So that's where it is. I'm staying away from LBs, looking for a job, showing H affection, telling him everything, looking as good as I can, loving him, smiling more, being completely and utterly honest, and praying for the best.

Thanks for asking.

I wouldn't take anything he says to heart at the moment.

I wouldn't even discuss lawyers or divorce either.

You wounded him. He needs a lot of time and understanding. A lot of sex as well will help him a lot.

Just my 2c

Don't entertain discussions like that with him. Just acknowledge what he's said and move on. Those are not the types of emotions you should be encouraging at this point.



IOW, his heart's not really in a D, but he's also struggling for a way to stay with you and not feel like a cuckolded H and someone's second-choice / "fall-back guy". That struggle could take years. I'm three years out from D-Day, and I still have that internal struggle from time to time.



Realize that this might have a lot to do with he thinks you may actually think of him as a lifelong partner. I believe that I previously mentioned to you before that my situation is similar in ways to your BHs, and yes, at times (though much less often these days) I too believe that if I could take it all back, I could. However, I feel this way now mainly because I feel I might not have been the best choice for my wife because, if she was truly happy with me and respected me as a lifelong partner, she would not have cheated on me.

But, guess what? There's no "Back" button in life. All you can do is make the best of the life that you have now. That's what I'm trying to do, and that's what you and your H should try to do.

I think he is part testing your resolve to stay and part give back some of the pain he has.

Do not respond to his I'm leaving speechs. I'm not taking you to the party.

How hard are you working at building his trust?

Are you having girls out nights?

Do you call him from a work phone for hi to know you arrived at work when you are supposed to?

Do you call him on lunch, and coffee breaks?

Shows that your not with OM. You do not tell him that you are showing him that you are not with the OM. He will understand the reason why you are calling. Just a short light chat with I'm on my way or have arrived thrown in.

Do you call when leaving work, if he is not home do you call him that you have arrived when you should?

Do you take a kid or your mom or sister when you go shopping?

So he knows that you can't be seeing an OM.

It takes more then giving up all pass words and cell phone to be transparent.

Does BH know how you and OM contacted to conduct the affair?

Can BH monitor these things to know that there is NC?

Your BH may of declined your offer for these things. It is your job to give him these things whether he wants them or not.

Offering to tell him is weak. Writting all this info and handing it over to him, telling him that if he lose's this paper all this info is also in a folder on the PC. This will show him that your actions are speaking louder that words.

YOUR BH IS TELLING YOU HIS BIGGEST PROBLEM IS NOT TRUSTING YOU.

You are going to have to move trust mountains. Without saying see all that I am doing to restore your trust.

Sounds like your BH is testing you to see if you will give up on him so easily. You failed him in a big, big way. He will struggle with that little voice that tells him you don't deserve another chance and that you don't mean what you say even if he wants to give you another chance.


He wants to hurt you as you have hurt him. To him your A meant that he, your children and 16 years of good times meant nothing to you compared to OM. That is how deep his pain is L4. If he continues to make such comments, if you can muster up a response once again apologize for the pain you have caused him, express your remorse for your horrible decision and let him know that you still think he and your family are the biggest blessing.

L4

Out of the blue yesterday he said he is going to write a letter to the OM and the OM is not going to like what it says. I didn't respond at all.

That's actually a good sign, don't discourage him, a man has to settle up with another man that enters his territory. As I said to my wife about someone who was interested in her, "dog enters another dogs turf and he bites him".

God Bless
NJ

I've been to two concerts with my sister (one a cousin's band), but those have been my only social time out with anyone outside of family gatherings. H has spent 3 weekends away from our kids and me since I confessed five weeks ago.

I'm currently unemployed. H works from home so we're home together all day except when he's traveling for business.

We have even had a couple of "intimate lunches" since my confession, in fact. I'm available to him almost every hour of the day.

The OM lives 2,000 miles away. I'm rarely out of the house now.

And when we're not together, I text H and email him. Right now H is in CA and I have Skype open as he's working there so we can IM when he has thoughts. Last night we IM-ed until 5:30 this morning while he was in his hotel room. When I was at the concert Sunday night I texted H when the show started. I texted him when he landed in CA yesterday. We talk every day when he's on the road...


Usually the kids are with me except for quick runs to the store or doctor's.

Understood.

Yes. IM, telephone, texts, and emails. We were together physically one time during a business trip in April. OM's BW has known since June so between her and my H, they've been able to check up and monitor the OM and me -- the truth in that we ended the affair end of May and have not been in contact in any way since I was laid off end of July. (We worked together.) Our last personal correspondence was in June when OM and his wife texted me their NC message. Our last correspondence of any kind was July 24 when through work he gave me permission to email him and his wife about a question I had about who all at work knew about our PA. He and his wife replied. My H has seen a copy of this final correspondence when my H asked the BW if she had a copy. (I had deleted everything from OM and suggested the BW might have a copy if H really needed to see it.)


Yes. And OM's BW has also been able to verify for my H that there has been NC.

I have done this. He has all records that I have. He has otherwise had access through BW.

Understood.

Thanks, TR.

Thanks, BR. I tell him every day how sorry I am for my betrayal. He's told me he needs to hear my remorse every day. He says he believes me but he needs to hear often how sorry I am. So I tell him. Because I am deeply sorry. And I'm telling him and showing him how important he and our kids are to me.

I'm doing my best with giving all of these.

Thanks again, MIM, for your clear perspective.

Tuesday night H and I were up IMing until 5 in the morning as he was on a business trip. Wednesday we talked, exchanged texts, and IMs... It was the usual -- questions, honesty, talking, checking in, flirting, sharing our days, and our hurts... Late yesterday afternoon he sent me an email that was very angry. It had the f-word, new accusations, stated he didn't believe me after all on things we've covered over and over (he told me just a few days ago that he does believe me), and had a whole new attitude I haven't seen since the first week after I confessed in late October. When he returned last night, we hugged and he held me tight, but he was very close-lipped. Then about an hour later, he unleashed.

He became the mean H of the last few years. He sat there repeatedly calling me names like sl*t and bi**h, using the F-bomb, and stating over and over "you did", "you are", "you think", "you want"... He mimicked me spreading my legs and put on quite a show. I was so hurt. Granted, I don't hurt at all like he is hurting, and there's part of me that thinks I deserve this, but I thought we had passed the point of verbal put-downs and unfair labels. (He doesn't think it's abuse. To him it's expressing his feelings.) Several times I said it's unfair what he's saying and I would leave it he didn't stop the way he was talking to me. Finally, I was very upset and as I got up barely able to breathe through my tears I said, "I know what you think of me. I'm sorry for what I did. I regret the pain I've caused you with every fiber of my being and wish I could take back my mistakes. But I can't. I'm sorry and I'm changed. And I'm not a sl*t." I tried to stand up for myself as best I could while maintaining responsibility for my actions.

I thought we were beyond this? (I have offered several times to take a polygraph, BTW.)

He has apparantly lost all memory of the cold, selfish, thoughtless, and hurtful things he's said and done to me in the last few years -- things that he admitted to when we were in counseling in September and October. (And I really tried not to bring them up.) I tried to explain it's not about being nice to me and caring for me one Saturday night at a rock concert (an event last March that he keeps pointing to as a night he proved to me how much he loves and cares for me), but it's about being nice and respectful and caring to each other daily. It was like I was talking to a blank wall. It was all about him and I felt he was lashing out at me. I couldn't believe what I was watching -- the wonderful, communicative, sensitive, and compassionate H I thought I had rediscovered in recent weeks ran away and came back as the mean man who was before.

I told him I will talk about the affairs, I will talk about recovery, I will talk about his pain, our children, our hurts, and our needs, but I won't take his insults and untrue accusations. I told him I'm sorry, I love him, and I'll talk with him in the morning then left for bed.

This morning the anger continues. I told him good morning and he didn't even look at me. Later he came to my bed and asked if I needed a hug. I said yes and as he held me, he said he was praying for my soul. He said he still cared for me but can't believe what a liar I am. I asked if he loves me -- something he said yes to even just last week. Today he said, "I don't know."

He just approached me and said he has written an email for the FOM. He said he'll let me read it before it's sent, though I'm not going to like it because it talks about my low moral character and my sl**tiness. Not sure what he's hoping to get out of sending such a message to my FOM.

I have no idea what happened in the last 24-hours to make him so angry again. Y'all talk about the roller coaster. And I've been riding it. But is there a time when I don't have to take his untrue hateful words any more? Or is this part of my consequence for the rest of my life and I have to smile and bare it?

D-day is still pretty new for him. One minute he will feel okay and the next his mind is rehashing all sorts of stuff. The questions all come back: How could she do this to me? Why am I still here when she obviously didn't give a rat's butt about me? This happens no matter what, but it doesn't help that BH is away from home sitting alone in a hotel room where anxiety and anger can take over very quickly. It's been what? 6 weeks? 6 weeks out for me was horrible L4, the lowest of the low. There were other dynamics at work in my case but the BS's mind starts to go to dark places and the anger takes hold.

I don't think you should endure never ending abuse L4 but I'm not sure what you thought what you were in for when you said you were willing to do whatever it takes to recover your M.

My H used to ask me "What's wrong" or "What did I do now?" when he could see I was peeved and I'd have to bite my tongue. I really wanted to yell in his face "WTF DO YOU THINK AHOLE!" The A is what was wrong! The A is what he did! Does there have to be more??? It is always there for the BS until they have healed themselves enough to not think of it constantly.

This is a case of not setting boundaries. Not sure where your boundary is L4 but I do think 2.5 yrs is excessive.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2168953#Post2168953

You need to set boundaries. When BH is abusive calmly tell him just that " you are being abusive to me, if you need to talk about the affair or anything else I am willing to hear you and respond, but I will not be abused, we are far enough away from D day for you to have much more control ". Then quietly leave the room.

If he is returning to the sort of behavior he displayed before the A, call him on it, and then leave the room. You MUST set boundaries, this is NOT all about him, it is about the family, it is about you, and it is about your extended family.

Stress does not make character, it reveals it.

You have messed up big time and he has every right to terminate this marriage,but he does not have the right to abuse you for months on end. He has the right to be angry and hurt, but he does not have the right to hurt his family and you are an integral part of his family.

It is time you developed your boundaries, and stated them clearly to him (BEFORE you two are in an arguement or intense discussion).

God Bless,

JL

This helps, BR. I know everyone's processing timeline is different. But reading your experience helps me understand my H's returning to anger is not unusual.


I need to revise my conviction, I guess. I am working hard to recover our M and will put in whatever effort necessary. But I will not go back to how we were last summer and how we had been for the last few years. I cannot go back to being an undermined doormat whose thoughts, opinions, needs, and concerns and unimportant.

I've never asked what's wrong. I know what's wrong. I agree with you that would be a ridiculous question considering what he's going through because of me.

I'll be sure to work on those boundaries. Thanks, everyone.

Interesting yesterday... My H communicated with me only by IM all day until dinner time. And we were in the same house the whole time. I told him I prefer to talk face-to-face, but he wouldn't -- for about 9 hours. I was on my computer doing job searches and he kept IMing me questions and comments. After the kids went to bed, H shared that he had called our MC and was going to meet with him. I was so happy to hear he was reaching out for help. This was huge.

In the evening H wanted SF. Afterward, we started talking and ended up in fight about our families -- always a touchy issue for us. We slept in separate rooms because I have a horrible cold. He joined me in the morning and we were able to talk calmly about last night. We didn't come to a solution, but we talked respectably. H left for the MC who said he will meet with H only one time alone since he's our couple's therapist and he can't treat either of us as an IC. H came back and then we had to leave for a memorial service -- our first "event" together since my confession. We came home, H took a nap, then he left for his brother's birthday party out of town.

Since H came back from the morning therapy session, he's been very quiet to me. I asked how it went and H said it was really good as tears came to his eyes. Later I asked H if he wants to talk with me about anything and he said no. He allowed me to snuggle with him after his nap, but he seemed completely detatched -- the most distant he's been in weeks.

The most important thing is that he sought professional help.

L4
I have a slight issue with your "first" A. If A.) you were not married to your H (and not married for years later)-- and B.) You did not consider this an affair-- why are you tarred with a twice cheater tag?

For me, the vows are the vows, the beginning of the marriage. Just because you live with someone, even if you have a commitment-- does not make you an adultress. it might make you a lousy girlfriend - but not an adultress.

Do not tell this to your H. It will only hurt him more.
Do not let this go to your head. It still may have been a crappy thing to do to your live in boyfriend. Depends on what agreements you may or may not have had at that time.

BUT
I just wanted to point this out as a point of contention for you.(and the actual act of the wedding ceremony). Not eveyone here will agree- but I see the Marriage as the beginning.


I think you were brave- good luck- don't beat yourself up too much.
BC

Barbcat,

I agree that the before wedding cheating was not adultery, I think the biggest issue here was that she married her H and she knew he did not know about the cheating. It is not the same thing as adultery but could be seen as even worse, since it taints the entire marriage from the very beginning.

BarbieCat,

Dishonesty is dishonesty no matter when it occurs, if it was no big deal why didn't she tell him back then?

I've know someone who had sex with a other woman the day before he got married, guess the vows weren't in place yet. After 20 or so years his wife did kick him out.

NJ

BTW, dishonesty before marriage is also cause for annulment, any conceilment of a important fact, criminal record, VD, emplyoment as a prostitute, impotence, etc can give grounds.

Thanks for trying to give me an "out" here, barbiecat, but it was wrong of me not to admit to cheating on my live-in boyfirend when it happened. I knew it and hid it because I knew it was wrong and that he would leave me. I loved him and was dishonest for my own, selfish reasons. It was a very different relationship from the affair I had this year while married, but it was cheating nonetheless.


Too late. He knows now. And it did hurt him more.

Thanks for your support, B.

Yep. And my H has told me numerous times since I confessed to it that it is worse.

Hi Looking4,

Thanks for posting and for sharing your ordeal.

A question if I may. How did your affair end, and did you suffer through withdrawal? If so, how bad was it and how long did it last for?

I hope things are working out between your husband and you.

best

GH31

Hey again L4,

Just dropping by. I hope that you may yet still encourage H to chat (create his own thread)

You have my vote as the woman I would prefer to have as a FWW. I tip my cap.

May God continue to give you strength and wisdom.

Hi L4,

Keep hanging in there. I know it's tough to hear what you are hearing from your H, but he's got to have the chance to vent. I honestly have no idea what to tell you about where the line is regarding what is venting and what is verbal abuse. I think you'll have to decide where to draw that line and figure out for yourself what may be sacrificed in your doing that; for example, causing your H to withdraw verbally if he feels to confined by 'rules' about language.....keep in mind that YOU broke the biggest rule of them all and it's only natural for him to feel a bit like he can run over your feelings sometimes. I'd stop at telling him that your feelings were hurt rather than telling him that his language is unacceptable, but that's just me. In my mind the 'rules' are different for the FWS and the BS in this regard....sorry!

I still, seven months out, have days where I cannot for the life of me see myself loving my H.....I have days when I tell him that. I have days when I tell him that I will stay because it's the right thing to do, but that I have NO intention of caring for him enough to be hurt by him again........then I have my 'normal' days when I DO feel I love him, when I see a future that isn't all about sacrifice and pain. Those days are more and more frequent as we go along.

I think that every couple deals with this differently. Some schedule "A-time" when the BS can rant, some take it as it comes, some make it off-limits after a certain point. For you right now, it sounds like you need to do what you can to ride it out. I think your H needs to see proof that you will stay if he decides to invest himself in recovery. It may be a childish way of testing you, but I'd venture to guess that most of us BSs have done it or something like it.

Keep up the good work.
Gwen

When one is in a relationship and then goes out at has sex with another, it is cheating/affair/unfaithful/infidelity. No matter how it is sliced it still hurts and usually causes the relationship to end.

How any one can think let alone say it does not matter because it was before they got married is incomprehensible.

It is also indicitative of a serious character flaw. The husband in this situation has been manipulated by his wife for the entire marriage.

In May I got a rude awakening of how messed-up the whole affair was and sent OM a note stating I wouldn't be contacting him any more. OM obviously loved his W and I had to either fix my M or leave it. No more texting, no more contact on the weekends. (We worked at the same company but live 2,000 miles apart.) I didn't know anything about NC and MB and all this stuff on how to end affairs, so we thought through will power we could go back to being friends. It was very hard but we both said it's what needs to happen.

I had an anxiety attack in June on a Thursday and emailed our management team that I was taking the rest of the day off. (OM and I were both managers.) OM called me and asked if I was okay. I couldn't talk and asked if I could email him. He said that was fine and I sent a very long message about my hurt believing my M was over, feeling like a failure, feeling unloved, concerned for my kids, blah blah blah... There was nothing erotic in the email. OM had just gotted a new mobile phone. He downloaded my email to his cell phone and apparently didn't delete it. I got a text message Sunday that OM's W read my email. A few hours later he sent an NC text message. OM's W also sent me two text messages. I don't know what transpired exactly, but gather that she confronted him and he finally confessed. (She had asked him about me before.) We continued to work together but had no correspondence without others involved -- copying others on emails and including others on conference calls. After receiving OM's and OM W's permssion to contact them through work IM, I sent an email July 24, asking what was known by co-workers about our affair. They responded together and that was the last correspondence we've had. I was layed off July 31 and he voluntarily quit as part of the company's downsizing.

I have gone through withdrawal. It was extremely painful for probably 2 months as I shared only with my IC what I had done. Feelings are dwindling and all that really remains for OM is anger. I don't talk about feelings for OM here any more as I don't want to offend any BSs. There is no more love, though I do hope he and his W are getting through this horrible time and they can eventually be happy again -- happy together if that's what BW wants. Interesting in that thoughts of OM dropped dramatically after I confessed to my BH in October. Ending the lie has allowed me to examine things in bright, exposing light verses under cloak and daggar. Among the many things I've learned from all of this is that trying to look at something in the dark is very difficult. I believe that covering my lies and trying to decode them pretty much on my own prevented me from coming to terms with myself, my H, my M, and the OM. Confessing has created unbearable pain for my H and it's also been painful for others and myself, but it's also been huge in recovering from this mess I made.

I agree. And it's a flaw I'm admitting to, trying to understand, and (with help) working to turn-around.

G'Day Looking4,

Thanks very much for posting and I sincerely hope that you're tracking OK with your hubby. A few more questions if I may...


What was it that gave you this rude awakening? Did it dawn on you slowly or hit you like a ton of bricks? Just curious as to how you got this epiphany.

and...


Thank you for considering the feelings of us BSs and exercising caution. In my experience it's not WS talking about their "feelings" for OP that enrage us, it's the rationalization and justification of having an affair - and everything being all about the WS - this is what drives us nuts. And, a complete failure to mention how much their actions have destroyed a BS. When you say can we reliably deduce that you were/are "in love" with OM?

I am very glad that you are posting your journey here and hope that you continue to do so.

I sincerely wish you and your husband all the best in recovering.

Thank you for the encouragement, Imagine and M2B. (And everyone else.)

My H still has no desire to read here or post here. The EN questionnaire still sits unanswered on his desk. He's working through all of this his own way.

We've had bad days and good days, but I've been concerned more often then not. I have to keep reminding myself to give it time. At over 6 weeks we're still early in this process. But here's what's happening.

H has become more detatched since Saturday, being quiet and spending more time alone. We did have SF last night, but afterward we got into a long discussion until 3:30am that got heated at times. (I worked very hard not to LB but was not perfect.) This was the first time this week that we have really talked at all. Otherwise, every communicaiton about our relationship has been via email or IM. Up until this last weekend, we've been emailing and IM-ing yes, but we've also been having in-depth, hours-long talks in-person. I've told H I need the real conversations too, to see his face, eyes, and body language, but he said he can't look at me when he talks about some of this stuff. ??? We have been talking in-person for the previous 5 weeks so I'm worried this is a sign of pulling further away. I'm trying to honor his wishes for written communication, but it's difficult as emails and IMs can be misinterpretted.

Monday night I sent him an email that talked about everything on my mind. I listed 18 things I am specifically sorry for, I thanked him for all he does for our family, I thanked him for his concern for me, I shared my concerns for him, I asked him to consider filling out the EN form, I told about the anger I have for OM (he had been asking me about it), I recognized what a blessing he and our children are to me, and other points. He responded to what I thought was a well-thought and well-intended email very angrily, tearing my message apart and telling me what I am "really" thinking. It instantly made me defensive and feeling like WTF?

I guess my point is that it was suggested here that I Plan A, even though I am the cheater. I have been doing that. But he's not. He's detatching, LBing, and doing things that frustrate the heck out of me. I do want this M to work. I'm being nice, looking good, telling him what he means to me, having SF, thanking him for all he does, taking care of the house and family, saying I'm sorry, answering his questions, practicing RH, making time for us... In the meantime, it's like he's going back to how he was. Oh, it's not as bad as it was and he is being kind sometimes, but he's employing bad habits again that he had worked so hard in recent months to control. He's being passive aggressive, he's not listening to me, he's not encouraging nor joining family activities as much any more, and he's keeping to himself.

We had planned on attending a event at our kids' school tonight. Two days ago H IMs me that he's "going out" instead. I asked him to do what and he said, "To go out." When our DS learned H wouldn't be joining the rest of us, our DS asked H why. H said he was going out but refused to say with whom, where, or for how long. Only that he's leaving at 5:00 and is going to have dinner some where. So I'm practicing RH, being completely transparant, and letting H know where I am at all times. H isn't doing the same.

This morning H was sweet and we did SF. Then shortly afterward he thanked me for the SF last night and today, then added that he knows after some time, later on today the resentment is going to come back full force and he doesn't think he'll get over the resentment he has. I said I understand. He left the bed and hasn't talked to me face-to-face since this morning, despite both of us sitting here in the same house for the last 6 hours.

L4,

I think you should tell your husband when he slips back into old behaviors, since those behaviors helped you to justify your A and since if he does them enough you won't love him anymore.

I also think he needs more time to think about this. The more time you spend the less likely he is to leave and go to plan D. I am sorry this is so difficult for both of you. I have been thinking about this and I would probably not be able to get past a pre Marriage betrayal that was hidden from me through the marriage ceremony and vows. Maybe you should talk to him about how you feel about that.

Hi L4,

I don't post much but I still read your thread and pray for you, your H and family.


I know you've heard it said before but you can't control anyone but yourself. As you vent your frustrations here, learn how to improve yourself, make the adjustments needed for your own recovery, you may gradually discover your H becoming curious about what/how/where you're learning and he may eventually begin to ask questions.

It will take time. Be patient. And when it does happen, be careful to answer only what he asks. It's easy to overload our loved ones in our exuberance to get results too quickly. At least it was for us.

Keep focused L4 and you'll be amazed when your self-improvements speak louder than any words you may say.

Ace

I'm not going to read the whole thread, sorry, but as a BH 4 months past D-day, I can tell you it is a horribly life changing piece of news to hear if he loves you. To me, the worst thing he will ever have to deal with in his life aside from the death of a child. My life will never be the same, and I have a knife in my heart most of the day.

Six weeks is nothing, hon. I still have a gaping chest wound. You have to just listen and apologize every day I guess.

I always knew it was wrong. But the smack upside the head came one morning in May. A few weeks before I had called OM asking if I should extend my lay-over in his home town when I was flying on business. He said absolutely so I did. The night before I was to return home from a conference I called him. OM's wife was out of town. We talked for four hours into the wee morning. Eight hours later, I landed in his town and called. I asked if he was coming and he said no, reasoning that he should really get some work done. My stopover was something we had known about for three weeks. His wife was out of town, no one was home (he worked from home), he's the manager of his department and could come and go as he pleased... No one would have had any suspicions. Just a few hours earlier he was being sexually explicit with me and telling me he loved me. Now standing in an airport an hour away from him, he couldn't make it. In fact, when I said, "Thanks for being with me last night," his only response was, "Ya. It was fun." He had the opportunity to be with me exclusively and physically -- something he said he was always fantasizing about -- and he dismissed me. I sat in the airport for three hours and had my "epiphany" that I would never be a priority even when his wife and family weren't around. His needs would always come first. Virtual sex on his terms, talk to me when he could, be with me only when he wanted to be. I had lost my integrity, I was lying to my H and many around me, I had guilt upon guilt upon guilt, and I was risking my job, my M, and my family for a man who couldn’t take a couple of hours to see me when we had no idea when the next chance might be. It was my "A-ha" moment.

I'll do my best to keep this in mind, GH31.

I really was. It sounds ridiculous to say this especially when I know now what I know, but I genuinely thought he was the first man I could trust completely -- with my emotions, thoughts, heart, and needs. He often told me I needed to let my guard down and let him take care of me -- something I didn't do easily if at all. I eventually did give in and shared everything with the OM. (Again, as best you can when you live 2 time zones apart and are both married. Geez this was so completely F-ed up!) I no longer love the OM. I do not hate him and don’t wish anything bad for him. The one emotion regarding him that I am still grappling with is anger.

Thank you, Ace.

Hi L4, thanks for replying to my posts.


Is the reason your angry because of the way he rejected you at the airport or showed you that you weren't a priority?

Thanks very much for being open with me and excuse my aggressive question.

I hope very much that you and your husband are tracking well.

Gawd, this sounds exactly like my WW.

I hope she is getting through withdrawal. She says she still really, really misses him "as a friend". Which is just fog.

L4, I've been trying to think of ways to get my W to open up about her feelings without the subject turning to the A. Any advice?

I’m not able to post as often as the kids are having half days and I’m trying to make myself available for family and H at nights. Sorry I’m not getting back to questions as quickly as I’d like.

We had a good weekend, especially considering how rough last week was. Wanted to share with you...

Friday night H and I made eggnog, watched a movie, then had great SF. Saturday I took my son to the symphony. We came back then all four of us went bowling, out to dinner, and all watched a family movie. H stayed engaged the whole time and it was great. It snowed Saturday night and the kids wanted to go out and play at 7:30 Sunday morning. H jumped at the chance to play with them. The kids and I went to church. In the afternoon we all went sledding, had Mexican food, then my H offered to put both of the kids to bed.

Adding to it, H stated Sunday night that he sees all the work I’m doing for him, us, our family, our home, and even myself and he appreciates it. It was nice to hear that he sees that. It was a good weekend.

Last night H and I went to bed in each other’s arms and we cuddled all night. At 2 in the morning he started coming onto me. He got me all excited then abruptly stopped and said, "I can’t do this." He stopped the fondling and just hugged me.

My H has seemed unusually clingy the last few days so this morning I asked if there was anything he wanted to talk about. While I’m loving it, I’m wondering if there is more on his mind than what he’s sharing. He said that he really sees the work I’m putting in to show him how I care and he likes how I’m tending to him. But he added that he knows I’m a liar and he resents me and everything I’ve done. That I’ve ruined our family and he can’t get over that. I told him I’m sorry. He said that I should be.

I know that as recently as yesterday he’s been looking at divorce lawyer websites and ones for child custody. He didn’t tell me this but I see he was researching on our home computer from the browser history.

Last night I asked about specific Christmas plans, assuming we were spending it together based on how he’s been asking me to contact his family about meal preparations. He seemed oddly uncertain so I asked him if he wants me to go. He said he didn’t know because he doesn’t want things to be uncomfortable. Everyone knows what happened and they also know we’re still together. Shouldn’t I be able to be with him and our family? With Christmas 9 days away, I don’t know where or how I’ll be spending it.

I just got an email from H a few minutes ago. He talks about how devious and hard I was this last spring and summer. I’m reading it knowing much of it is probably true from what I’ve learned here about WW fog and how when we’re in the thick of an A, we’re tuned into only our own selfish needs. (Now here it comes…) But… Our marriage problems started years ago, not last spring. H didn’t complain to me at all about my actions until late July when I became completely detatched. Now he interprets our relationship differently. Yes, I had an affair and it puts a completely different spin on things. And an A has the biggest destructive impact on any relationship. Remember though, he didn’t know about the affair while it was happening and he refused counseling until I threatened to leave him in August. He is the one who last spring told me my problems were mine and didn’t have anything to do with him. His revisionist thinking about our marriage is baffling me. During MC in September and October he was admitting to things he knew he needed to change about himself and us. I was doing a bit of the same though admittedly not fully because I had the secret of my betrayal. (Covererd in the first posts of this thread.) Now, he sees nothing wrong with how he’s been in our relationship. I’m torn with responding to this email with the reality as I remember it, or letting it go which will imply agreeing with him. Thoughts? I don't want to jeopardize our very fragile recovery but I don't want to endorse how poorly we treated each other the last few years.

BTW... Speaking of recovery. Are my H and I in recovery if he's not 100% committed to it? I read on this site when the roles are reversed, when a BS wants recovery but a WW isn't, that it's not recovery. What does it mean when the WW is committed but the BS can't commit and waffles back and forth? The mixed signals are dizzying.

Just past week 7 from my confession. Still early I know. It continues…

L4, first of all, I think you are doing WELL.

I suspect that it's going to be at least a year before things really start to settle down, and the effects of what you are doing NOW will start to really pay off.

3 years out, and I still have thoughts of leaving. But a lot of those thoughts are driven by what is happening in my M NOW, rather than what my FWW chose to do prior to D-Day.

So, for now I suggest you resist the urge to immediately "correct" his version of your marital history, as any attempt to do so is likely to be interpreted by him as you trying to justify your choice to have an A. Instead, let him know how you feel when he mistreats or LB's you *now*, and save the history facts discussion/debate for those times when you think you can both do it without LB'ing each other. For which is more important - an M with a mutually-agreed history, or an M where both spouses love and are in love with each other?

I'm upset that he came onto me in the first place as I miss the friendship that existed before. Yes, I am responsible for going ahead with the affair. But I know I never would have been with him if he hadn't told me he was attracted to me. We had been great friends for 5 years. I had never thought of him sexually or any other way before. Even after he told me his feelings, I thought he was sweet but nothing more. Then we started talking more and he encouraged me to tell him everything, share with him my past, tell him about my familiy, and assured me numerous times that I could trust him with anything including my marriage problems... It wasn't until we were involved more than friends that he confessed he had no intention of leaving his wife. I felt he exploited my vulnerabilities and low self-esteem that he learned about while getting close to me to get his rocks off. Yes, I am an adult and it was my fault too. I used him as well. These are residual feelings I'm still dealing with.

I'm also angry at how he treated me toward the end. Begging me to trust him and that he would never hurt me nor leave me and that I could continue to tell him anything. Then when we were discovered, he turned and ran and... Well I don't know what else because we haven't spoken since he abruptly texted me that he doesn't love me and to never contact him again. He also allowed his W to text some choice comments to me. So I sat there that fateful Sunday, dumbfounded that this person who meant the world to me and who told me I was special to him too, could literally turn his back on me as if I never existed. I know this is how it has to work with NC. But I'm still dealing with that real feeling of abandonment when I was at my absolute lowest. My marriage was crumbling, I was a liar, I had broken my own moral code, who I thought was my most trusted friend had left me, I felt like a home-wrecking wh***, my job was rocky, my health wasn't great... I was lost. My fault. I know. Yet easier to be angry with someone just a bit too.

Funny, I'm not angry at him for letting our A be discovered. I think that needed to happen in order for us to get out of the mess we had created. So it's easier to be mad at him for initiating it all in the first place. And for being selfish and cold at the end.

Childish? Probably. Inappropriately deflecting some of my full responsibility? Yes. Not healthy? I'm sure. But you asked me why and these are strictly my feelings...

I'm working on all of this, btw, in my IC. I'm miles ahead of where I was 6 months ago.

Was she open with feelings before? I've always been open with how I'm feeling so it's not a stretch for me now when my H asks me what's happening.

How does the conversation turn to the A? Is it your doing or does she bring it up? Does she compare you to the OM? Does she justify her A because of something that you supposedly did or didn't do?

Thank you, MIM. Good advice. Now I need to follow it.

The end.

L4, maybe the end will reveal a bit more about why your H is struggling at times (in addition to his needing more time). It could also help you discover ways to help him recover, too.

Not sure about you, but for me, when I began to realize that my WH chose me (and truly had become disgusted with OW), I felt like we could begin to heal.

If she had dumped him first, it probably would have taken me/us a lot longer to begin rebuilding trust and starting recovery. I guess I can be grateful that she wanted the reconnections as much as he did (4 d-days, but 3 actually involved contact with OW...the 4th was intercepted but our MC catagorized it as a D-Day due to WH's intent to contact that I discovered the night I gave up and agreed that he should leave). I'm glad she gave WH the chance to dump her, even if it would have been better if he had done so without being busted thrice.

If it had been her choice, his withdrawal might have proceeded differently....well it probably would have but I'm not sure how.

It would have definitely been different for me, being a detail person and extremely paranoid BS...not a good combination. The fact that his dumping you factored into the end of your A may have a more intense affect on your H than if YOU had chosen to establish NC first.

I've missed parts of your thread so if this has already been mentioned, sorry for the duplication.

Ace

L4,

I was thinking about your situation and I was wondering if you had a discussion with your H about your reasons for confessing? I know the standard MB line is that complete honesty is required but I'm wondering if he feels that he was making alot of effort to be a great husband and to make you happy. And then you suddenly confess this horrible thing that happened before you were even married. It could seem like you decided to take a burden off yourself and dump it on him. From a male perspective, you took a problem that you had, your secret cheating, and made it his problem. Now you get to lessen your own guilt and he is the one who has to suffer.

I'm wondering if you should bring this perspective to a conversation and explain why you felt you had to confess.

Spot on, Ace. I hadn't thought of this and it makes perfect sense. The fact that OM cut me off completely first verses me initiating total NC, is likely a major roadblock for my H. He, like you, is a details person. He is convinced that if OM's W had left OM when she discovered our A, that I would have left to be with OM.

H has stated several times that he doesn't know if he should thank OMW for staying with OM, or if H should be upset with her for not kicking OM to the curb and blowing everything open back in June.

I had huge guilt about the A and was pushing H away. I would vascilate between 'H deserves better than me,' and 'The M is bad anyway so why invest anymore into it? Just walk away...'

When we started MC and H began listening to me, changing, and fulfilling some of my needs, I realized that H perhaps does care for me after all. I kept walls up because I was suspicous of his motives and didn't trust his changes were for real, but even more because I wasn't fully committed to the M due to my betrayal. 'I'm not worthy of happiness,' was my thinking, 'so why try?'

I was so confused and through IC and straight talk from folks here (see the very beginning of my struggles at the beginning of this thread), I realized that I had made my choice. If I truly wanted to be committed to my H and this M, he deserved to know the truth, he needed to know who I am, and I needed my H's help if he was willing.

I initiallly did not confess to the A I had 2 years before we were married. That came out a few days after I confessed to my PA from earlier this year.

My IC felt the same way. He said he's seen many times when someone confesses that it's more to relieve their own guilt and to burden the other with having to deal with it all. I know others disagree with this (including my H) but I had to understand why and accept what I had done first before I could reveal my cheating to my H and devastate him.

We have talked about this. And it's interesting how many people -- my friends, my family, his friends, his family -- wonder why I bothered to confess? Why I would ruin my reputation and be "the bad guy" when it's likely it would never have been revealed on my end. But I was falling apart, and I felt my H deserved to know who he was married to.

L4,

I'm not trying to blame you, just trying to see if it might help your H to know why you told him all this.

It does seem that the existence of the preM cheating was having a huge effect on you, and now it is having a huge effect on him. Maybe it will help you to think back on how difficult it was for you to bear this burden. Now the burden is on your H, hopefully he will be strong enough to heal from this.

The fact that that you exposed everything in one shot is long far better than "the trickle truth". Who knows how THAT would have gone down.

Oh, gosh, 6YL, I didn't hear blame at all in your earlier comment. Though I don't fault anyone here when they do blame me. For the record, I blame myself enough for all of this anyway. Thanks for your consideration.

Actually, the preM I hadn't dwelled on in years. Maybe in passing if I heard the OM's home town or heard someone of the same name, but I gave it little to no attention. That's horrible to read, I'm sure, and it's hard to type. It's disgusting but true. I had all but forgotten about my preM infidelity. I didn't even reveal it to my IC nor our MC until I admitted it to my H. And even then, I didn't reveal it to my H immediately. I had no feelings for OM1. I ended the PA and never looked back. I hated how I was with him and felt huge guilt at the time and for a few months afterward. But I had no withdrawals and once I convinced myself that I was never going to tell my then BF, I worked hard to put it behind me and continued on. I hadn't felt guilt about that betrayal until my H ran me through a gamut of questions about my past. Then it hit me squarely between the eyes. Then all the old guilt came rushing back and I saw how real and awful it is for my H. He knows he would not have married me if he had known. I knew it too, back then. Which is why I never told him. 100% selfish. That's me. Or was me.

Why did you tell us about OM2 ( when you were married ) and not OM1 ( before you were married and dating BH )?

Why were you able to put OM1 out of your mind ( and not tell us or confess ) and not OM2?

These questions are not meant to bash, but get you thinking?

Does your BH know that many people that that have affairs never have the intention to leave their spouse.

Why not tell BH: Not that it makes what I did less wrong. Iwas wrong to have the affair but did not move to leave you BH, because I never did. You weren't my second choice. I was lost for awhile.

FWIW, this is still something that still haunts me one year later. Despite all the lies and deceit, one of the most vivid memories I have is that of my W disheveled and distraught the day after the OM dumped her. I think it is especially difficult for men to feel as if they are second best.

The main reason I am chiming in, however, is to let you know that I still think things are going well. You are on the right path but as they say, it is difficult to move forward when you spend your time looking backwards. Learn from the past but try not to beat yourself up.

Keep up the good work, L4, and don't forget to take care of yourself.

- Sh0cked

L4,
I don't believe I've posted to you before, but I've been following along. I wanted to commend you for your efforts to confront this situation honestly and with the right goal in mind: a happy and healthy marriage, and not simply marriage at any cost.

I hope you don't mind if I step in here to ask a question of the group, related to your sitch and the following specific point:


I would love it if I could get some additional perspective on this particular point. L4 has stated that her H was not really that great for most of their marriage. I believe her. Of course, having an affair only makes matters worse, and I'm not justifying her decision to do that. However, it seems clear to me that L4's husband was simply not that great a husband. And now he has trouble coping with the feeling that he was second best? It sounds to me like calling him "second" would be somewhat generous! I guess my instinctive feeling is that he is not entitled to feel like he was the best throughout their marriage, because he just plain wasn't.

Again, I definitely understand that the affair really muddies the waters with regard to getting L4's husband to own his part in their unhappy marriage (pre-A). But, regardless of how difficult and complicated that is, doesn't he need to own it anyway?

I realize I may not be making sense here. I'm really not trying to challenge the concepts or even any BS' experience. But I feel some sort of disconnect here, and I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on it.


[Edited to remove unnecessary coding garbage.]

Curious53, I understand where you are coming from but let's face it, if many were better husbands (myself included) there would be far fewer affairs.

I, for one, thought that no matter what I did or how I behaved, my W would always be there for me. I became self absorbed and we drifted into separate lives. Was I a bad husband? Absolutely – mostly because I naively thought just being myself would keep her content. I did not realize that genuine effort put into the marriage was so important.

My W came back only after the OM cut her loose; she did not choose to end it for me or the marriage. It is for that reason, I am the second choice. If he did not end it, we would likely be divorced.

I suspect Mr. L4 feels the same way. He probably assumed his uniqueness was enough. He took a huge blow when L4 gave her affection to another and was further wounded because it was the OM that deemed L4 unworthy instead of the other way around. What man takes pride a woman that isn’t good enough for a slime ball?

Well, if you were a bad husband, of course she didn't choose to end the marriage for you. That's not really a surprise, is it?


Ah, well now you're giving a perspective I hadn't considered. Now we don't know for sure that Mr. L4 is thinking this way, so let's generalize it. You're suggesting that a BH might value his WW less because the OM valued her less (demonstrated by the fact that OM dumped WW). In other words, the BH can't appraise the WW according on his own -- he's depending on another man's appraisal of her to determine how much he values her. Is that how you felt?

While I definitely believe it plays out that way with some couples (I'm certain that some men's feelings about their wives are determined entirely by what they think other men think of her), I'm not so sure that's what's going on with L4's husband. But even so, that still doesn't help me with my original question. I guess I'm taking L4's H's behavior as an indication that he is surprised that she would prefer another man to him. But if he's been such a monumental jerk for so many years (something he had come to understand in MC), how can he possibly be so surprised? I mean, to expect her to prefer him to OM would almost require him to imagine that she likes being treated like crap. And, OK, maybe before they started counseling, he was too oblivious to recognize that he was treating her like crap (although that's really pushing it -- I suspect he knew and just couldn't be bothered to make to do otherwise), but once he was aware of what he behavior needed to be -- THEN he can't handle the fact that he was second choice? It makes no sense to me.

Hi, TR. I didn't mention OM1 initially on this thread because, and I'm serious when I type this, I didn't think of it, and if I had, I wouldn't have thought it important. I know now that it is and was critically important. I told about OM1 here back several pages the end of October. I got quite a few (deserved) lashings for it.

I don't know what he knows. I've recommended books and resources on marriage and affairs and he has no interest in outside information about what he and we are going through. When I was in my A earlier this year, I did think I would leave H. Not for the OM because OM said he wouldn't leave his M for me and because OM lives so far away. But I thought I would leave because I felt I must not love H enough if I had an A. And I thought we shouldn't be M because despite my attempts to get H to meet my needs, he wasn't doing so. And I'm sure I wasn't meeting his. I felt we were over, regardless.

Good input. Thank you.

L4, sorry about the TJ. I am very interested in your progress and wish you all the best. You deserve happiness and have my respect.

Curious53, I have started a seperate thread here.

Always nice to hear from you, Sh0cked. Take care.

Geez, C53. You've added a dimension to this that I had never even considered. Thank you for bringing it up. I'll jump over to the new thread titled "For Curious53 - Second Best" to see how this plays out among the masses. I will reply though, to how this relates specifically to my H.


It's not what is going on with H. He is very independent in his thoughts.

This is stuff he needs to deal with, I think. I really wish H would do IC -- whether with our pastor or a professional therapist.

For the record, H wasn't a monumental jerk all the time. And I'm sure I was contributing to our discord. I believe H just couldn't verbalize my faults to me so I thought I was the bee's knees in our M -- doing no wrong. As I've mentioned here, I talked to the FOM about my marriage problems. The FOM described how H was acting as "He is comfortable." Without consequence, H had a household that was well-managed, two healthy and happy kids, a managed social calendar, clean clothes, baby-sitter for his children, full pantry, meals, many household projects completed because of my father and uncle, a comfortable lifestyle due to my substantial paycheck, a respected wife who is okay to look at... Why should he have changed when he had his cake and could eat it too? That's what I felt like anyway. And it's not all his fault. I allowed it to happen, setting no or fragile boundaries. I let him think it was all acceptable, that my ENs weren't important. Of course I'm talking for H here and could be completely off base on how I've interpretted my H's actions.

Doesn't matter. He could have been the worst H ever. And I still should not have betrayed him and had an affair.

look4

"Why not tell BH: Not that it makes what I did less wrong. I was wrong to have the affair but did not move to leave you BH, because I never did. You weren't my second choice. I was lost for awhile."

Have you tried this yet?

Okay. If I need to just chill and let this roller coaster ride out, tell me so. But I can't stand this. I don't know what I can do, how I can respond to my H. I want to help him but I have no idea how/if I can.

My H just sent me this IM thread:

"I'm just trying to tell you that what we're doing around here lately (SF) does not mean we're staying together. I enjoy being physical with you, and holding you at certain times... but I don't want you to translate this into thinking I'm over what you've do to me/us. Knowing this... you don't have to physical with me."

I responded: "I don't expect you'll ever get over what I've done to you/us. What do you want?" (I was referring to the sleeping/physical stuff.)

H's response: "I want a 'do-over' card for marriage. I want to read about your infidelity with some other guy that you married and be able to say... 'Wow, glad I didn't marry her.' I want to go back and pick the girl to marry who really believed in a wedding vow. I want go back in time and beat the odds on who I picked as my wife. I want to go back and pick the girl to marry who isnt a professionally skilled liar. I want [OMW's] situation where she only has to deal with one brief affair that happened during a bad time in their marriage. For me... I have to deal with your affairs in good times and in bad times. (Referring to PA1 PreM when he feels we were "good". Perhaps "we" were good, but I was a mess.) I want things I can't have."

H ended by telling me that I'm welcome to move back into the guestroom, stating, "If you need to protect yourself and sleep in the other room while I try to sort things out in my head, I'm ok with that. I'm not trying to lead you on... I want to be up front with you."

And he still won't commit to letting me spend Christmas with him. I don't know what I'll be doing.

I know I'm the cheater. I know I'm in the wrong here. I even know he's right and I don't fault him at all for his wishes that he never married me. But I also know I want to save my M and I don't know what I can do. Anything? Input?

L4,

I don't know if you have read this yet or not: Can't We Forgive and Forget?

This from the article:

I highlighted the last part in red because I wanted it to stand out. I already know what your response to this idea is likely to be. It is the same as my wife's response and probably that of almost any WS who stops the affair and commits to recovery and reconciliation, at least in the beginning.

If the answer to the question "what caused the affair" has anything to to with what your husband did or did not do, he will NEVER be able to feel safe that it can never happen again.

As you look at what led to the affair, you need to identify that thing within YOU that allowed it to happen. This is what you must protect against ever happening again and be able to demonstrate to your husband what those precautions are in order to help him really heal and feel secure in the knowledge that his wife will remain faithful in the future.

Those who deal with alcoholics have a term that is used to describe someone who is not actively drinking, but has not taken the needed steps to stop themselves from falling off the wagon in the future. These people are called "dry drunks." While they are not actively drinking, might be keeping themselves in check and may not even consider drinking as an option, they have not yet determined that they must protect themselves from being put into a position where willpower alone might not be enough to prevent them from going on a binge. These are the ones who dry out, relapse, crash, rehab, dry out, relapse, crash and rehab again.

What must be identified in order to establish those precautions that can keep you from ever having another affair is what inside of you gave you permission to choose having an affair as an option to your situation? There really are no viable reasons that excuse an affair. If a marriage is bad enough to abandon, then it should be abandoned. If it needs to be fixed, then it should be fixed. Going outside the marriage to get your own ENs met is NOT a viable reason to inflict that kind of pain on someone else.

You see, a betrayed spouse is forever seeking the answer to the question "Why?" Why did you do this to me? Why did you hurt me so badly? Why did you betray must trust in you? Why? Why? Why?...

But you can never answer that question beyond saying "I was being selfish, not showing any empathy for you and really didn't care what you felt because i was only thinking of me."

Now that isn't a very good answer to the question since it doesn't tell the BS what will stop it from ever happening again. And THAT is where the problem lies in just moving forward and forgetting the past and forgiving the sin of adultery.

So the question you must answer for yourself is "WHAT?" instead of "Why?" Any answer you can give to "Why?" is likely to be the list of things you used in order to justify the affair while it was going on. It will be unfair comparison between your real husband and the fantasy of the OM. It will be a list of all negative qualities of your husband and only all the good stuff about OM.

But by asking yourself the question "What?" as in, "What happened inside of me that made having an affair seem right?" "What process did I go through that gave me permission to hurt my husband that badly?" "What was MY failure that allowed me to become a cheater and think it was right?"

And then comes the BIG answer to the really BIG question...


"What will I do from this day forward to make absolutely certain that none of those things can ever happen again?"

This is the Extraordinary Precautions Dr Harley talks about. Those things that you will do to make sure you never again give yourself permission to cheat. It will be a list of things you will avoid as if your life depends on them. It will be a list of things you will do as if you would die as surely as if you failed to eat or drink. It will be a list of stuff that YOU will do that will stop YOU from cheating no matter what your husband does in the future.

We have really crummy weather around here this time of year. Today it's ice, tomorrow is is supposed to be pretty extreme cold. Today I can be pretty certain of my own safety if I stay in the house and don't try to drive anywhere. But I might even run into trouble at home if the power goes out because of ice on the power lines. And tomorrow, since it will be much colder than today, if I go out on the roads and try to drive, I could end up in a ditch somewhere. If that is along the highway where thousands of people will drive by in the next couple of hours, I should be able to be rescued easily...

But if I go for a ride in the country tomorrow, way out where almost no one drives by, perhaps where no one will find me for a day or so, then unless I know what to do and how to prepare for a long cold night alone in way below freezing conditions, I could be dead before anyone finds me.

So two things have to be identified. What can lead to a problem?
And...
What can I do to save myself from that problem?

There are some situations I can avoid all together. Other situations I can only try to minimize the exposure to risk. (Like not driving 90 MPH down a country road on ice when the temperature is minus 10 Fahrenheit) But I also need to be able to live (and get to work on time in spite of the weather) so I must know what to do when I find myself in a dangerous situation AND if the worst comes to pass (my weakness is hit head on by the situation) I must be able to know what to do in order to get myself out of it without succumbing to the threat.

Like when in a situation where you are feeling down, ,missing something in the EN department, and not feeling especially loving toward your husband and a handsome, well dressed, charming stranger comes on to you...

What can you do right then?

You might be able to avoid handsome, charming well dressed strangers almost every day of your life, and if all is well in your marriage you might have no desire to hook up with one even if he offers...

But what will you do if you don't feel great love toward your husband at the moment, the stress of marriage has driven you almost mad with wanting to get away, work is awful, life stinks and you just wish you could slip away into a romance novel and THAT is when this guy shows up in your life...What will you do THEN to prevent falling into an affair?

The way to answer that question is to identify what inside of you made an affair the right choice. How can you make that never be the right choice ever again? And if you can't prevent the feelings from sneaking up on you when you aren't looking, then you must know how to avoid being in a situation where those feelings can occur AND must know what to do to get out of the situation without ever acting on it in the least, littlest, most minuscule way, since affairs don't happen all at once, but in increments and tiny steps. Identify the first step and don't take it and the affair never happens.

What was that first step?

Can't guarantee your husband is going to become a model husband and your marriage will recover and be filled with joy. But I can tell you that unless you can answer"What"" more than "Why?" your husband will never feel safe.

Mark

Edited to add: About half of this post vanished the first time around. Don't know why, never had that happen before.

But I fixed it now...

[[[[[[[[[[[[{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{((((((((((((L4))))))))))))}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

That's a big hug to help you cinch up your seatbelt a little tighter, L4. This recovery rollercoaster will test your commitment and resolve for many months and years to come.

Mark has suggested solid help you need to begin asking/answering those relevant questions. I can only offer my experiences since I can identify with your H on many respects:

* detail minded
* prone to be verbally abusive pre-post A
* tries to justify my pain by inflicting pain on my H, even when trying to refrain (just can't seem to help it sometimes)
* discovery of past indiscretion (while I was totally unaware for years) nags at my conscious hesitation to ever trust him again, even two years later
* constantly questioning why I agreed to marry him
* obsessing with who else I might have married that would make me happy because I could trust him (no idea who he is/might be, but 'he' is out there....or I should say he was out there in my mindgames until my H began doing one little thing)

Here's how I am different from your H:

* I sought outside help before A and continue to seek help
* I have to live with the fact that my H never confessed the second A or the multiple false recoveries until he was busted (and he didn't confess the first indiscretion for 6+ years after being confronted with the second A)
* As mentioned in a previous post, my H dumped both OWs to end the A

Here's the 'one little thing' that my H now does/says to help me overcome my continued trauma and it's been working for 2 years so far.

He calmly says "I will do anything to help you heal....period."

I even tested him once and said "Will you fly across the country to apologize to OWH in person?" He sincerely said "If it will help you heal, I'll do it today."

I also said "Will you go to the Marriagebuilders Weekend in London?" expecting him to hesitate, but he repeated his new mantra without skipping a beat...."If it will help you heal, let's sign up today." (They cancelled it, though).

This may sound harsh, L4 but maybe it will help: You are different from my H when you state that "I can't stand this." If my H thought or showed that he thought that, I would calmly say, "OK" and we would proceed to Plan D. (It might pass, but that would be my first inclination.)

As long as he says and shows that he's willing to do anything to help me heal, we are making progress on this rollercoaster.

There are more specific things we do/did but I can't post them here due to privacy issues. If you want I'll share via email (my address is at the end of the saga linked below.)

Still praying for you L4. Keep asking the difficult questions like Mark mentioned and venting your frustrations here. For what it's worth, you have many things going for you:

* you may be the first FWW who possibly should have posted on GQII but you're so willing to listen that people seek you out to help you on this quiet recovery forum (a good sign, btw)

* you are a superb writer who seems to be able to communicate your situation clearly in your posts

* you are committed and courteous, coming back to accept difficult suggestions and you always acknowledge any reply whether you agree or not (can't even recall any contentious post from you at all)

To help you overcome your discouragement, vent here when you can't take it any longer so your H doesn't hear it. If you're willing endure your H's rollercoaster frustration, eventually he will see your changes that might lessen his fear of trusting you again.

But, like I said, my husband says and shows that he's willing to do anything and everything to help me heal, and as he follows through I find myself rebuilding trust in him more every day.

Are things perfect? No.

Do we mess up and fall off the recovery tracks? Yes

Do I regret not kicking him to the curb? Sometimes, but that is lessening with every day.

More times than not, however, I am soothed by what I hear and see in my husband's being willing to help me heal. And for the first time in 30+ years, we are experiencing what a marriage is supposed to be.

You can make it, L4....keep posting and seeking and many will help you succeed.

Hope that helps.

Ace

P.S. If I wasn't sure if I wanted my husband with me (in the bedroom, at a holiday family function, etc.) he would say (and has said) "If it will help you heal for me to stay away, I will." So far, the fact that he's willing is all I need to hear to get over my hesitation. Eventually it may be the same for your H.

L4,
I, too, am sorry for the threadjack and wish you all the best.

L4,

This seems like a pretty hopeful set of IM's. I think you H is looking for you to say that you want him, as a H, father, sexually ... Even that you want him with no conditions. I am thinking that you could reply that you want whatever he can give you, even if he can't promise to stay. That is a very powerful message.

In my own story, out situation blew up because I could not enjoy the sexual benefits while keeping my plans hidden. I am happier now even though I am divorced. Just being wanted is a powerful message.

I first read this Friday night, Mark. Your post and Ace's are very powerful. I haven't been able to respond because I don't have the answer, and I never once even thought about this "what" question. I've been so focused on why, and not being able to answer it logically (impossible, I know) has had both my husband and me stuck. I mean, when you're married and committed to someone, why the heck would you have an affair? Logically, it's not logical. Emotionally, it's selfish. Morally, it's just flat out wrong.

So what led me to have the A and what can I do to make sure I'll never allow myself to be in that position again? I have ideas, but I think I need to write this out. <smiling now> I should put together a PowerPoint for my H. Just kidding...

Your words and very well-thought, considerate input mean much to me, Mark. Oh, and I have read Dr. H's article on forgiveness. Thanks for taking the time to spell this out for me. I'll take your comments to heart.

I have. His response was ambivalent. I'll keep repeating it. I am making conscious efforts to apologize every day and to tell him that I want to do whatever needed to help him and us through this. Preferably get through it together.

Thank you, Ace.

I do this, too. I tell him often that I will do whatever he needs to process what I've done.

I don't state this to my H. If I do, it's prefaced as I can't stand what I've done and that I can't stand that I've jeopardized our M. I can't stand not knowing if we will be together because that's what I want. But I never imply that I can't stand his ups and downs, his asking questions, his anger and pain. I'm in no position to make demands on how he responds to my betrayal. If I find myself unfairly angry for any reason, I save those revelations for you folks here.

I want, but if my H isn't participating in trying to save the M, will it matter? He's being nice to me, communicating with me more, and we're having SF, but he's not actively working on our M as far as uncovering ENs and working on our couple-ness. At least not yet and I think (wrong?) that's understandable just 8 weeks post-confession.

I will as long as y'all will allow.

Always does, Ace. Gracias.

I have offered in every joint situation to stay behind or not attend if it will be better for H. What's frustrating is when he says, "I don't know," and leaves me flapping in the wind. I am a planner and I want to know what my day/week is going to look like so I can make the proper arrangements for myself, the family, and anyone else involved. So while I have been doing this, it goes against my grain to sit back and not bug him about whether or not he wants me to accompany him. And when he has said it's okay if I go with him, he says so with such low enthusiasm. I don't know if he's allowing me to escort him because he feels sorry for me or if he really wants my company.

A few things from recent days.

H told me Friday morning he was going to have lunch with a good (male) friend of his. Later that afternoon H IM-ed me that he didn't have lunch with the friend after all but with a man from our church -- a man whom we both very highly respect. I told H I was glad he had reached out to the fellow church member. (H hasn't been to church since I confessed to H 8 weeks ago.) I asked H why he lied to me. H said he didn't want me to freak out, thinking he was telling other people our business. I was sincerely perplexed and asked if I had freaked out yet about him telling anyone. He replied no, but this was a church member. I explained that I don't care who knows at this point. I'm guilty and will take any consequences if they lead to H's healing. I don't care about my reputation if it helps him/us.

H went to church today, for the kids' Christmas pageant. I saw the church member and thanked him for being there for H. He said he's there for both of us and that he is praying for us. After church I asked H if he's glad he attended. He answered yes. I hope that means he'll start going again.

It was only the second time in two months that H and I had been at the same event/place together outside of the home around people we know.

I had a job interview Friday that went very well, but while I like the company and job, it's for about one-third the pay I've been making for the last 9 years. I mentioned this to my H, stating that I was uncomfortable taking such a cut in salary as it will impact our life. H said it's important that I have a job with benefits -- something he's mentioned before when he's talked about how I'll care for myself if/when he divorces me. So I jumped ahead (I probably shouldn't have) and said it's good I'd have benefits should I need to take care of myself, but the pay is so much less, that couldn't support myself and our kids on it. H glared and said, "That's something you should have thought about before you blew everything and had an affair." Geez, did that ouch.

Lastly, I LB-ed this morning. My sister and her family are flying in from out-of-state Tuesday night and my H doesn't want to spend much time with them, stating that he doesn’t want to pretend that all’s well. I told him we don’t have to. All of our immediate family know about my PAs and that we’re struggling. They also know that we’re still together. From what I’m seeing and hearing, both families are supporting us and hope the M makes it. But back to Sunday morning…

My sister asked if she, her H, and their two kids could stay here the night they arrive due to our proximity to the airport and the fact that our kids are very close to her kids. H said he was upset that I didn't check with him first about them staying here. I reiterated that I had not yet committed to picking them up but that yes, I would like to host them that first night. H and I are very different in our relationships with our families -- mine are all very close while his pretty much keep to themselves. H criticizes the closeness of my clan while the lack of concern within his drives me nuts. He feels mine smothers, I feel his father’s side is inconsiderate. (H doesn't seem to mind my family when we want a baby-sitter or have a home project that we need help with, but he gets ornery when they want to stop by our house on their way into the city.) Anyway, it's another subject all-together so better for another post on another day... But to summarize, I felt H was attacking and judging my family and I yelled. He yelled back and soon we were talking loudly over each other, LBing up the wazoo. H got up and stormed out. I paused 2 minutes then found him downstairs, hugged him, and told him I agree with what he said about my dad. It’s such a hot button for us both, something we were only beginning to work on in MC back in October. I was mad that I allowed it to get loud.

You have apologized, which is good but I think apologizing everyday is bad.

My asking if you had told BH yet was not as another way to get you to apologize but as a way to communicate that he was not your second choice.

If you see him trigger you would be better served to give him a hug, ask if he wants you to do something. If he says no then let him process the trigger on his own.

They way it is wrong for a BS to smother a WS during the affair, it is wrong for the WS to smother the BS after the affair.

Hi L4.

Just an observation - your H is obviously conflicted. If he really wanted to end the M, he could have done that by now. 8 weeks is still very early in this. I have no doubt he cares for you deeply and is trying to deal with the trauma. Emotionally separating himself and talk of splitting up is likely a defense mechanism.

This forum often talks about earning trust. One item I have often struggled with is respect. I think it is good that you are there for him and put your own feelings aside but try not to be a doormat. You can apologize for raising your voice or using harsh tones but don't apologize for what you believe in. Nothing is wrong with agreeing to disagree...

At eight weeks, my emotions were all over the map - desperation, anger, avoidance, etc. Nothing here is out of the ordinary.

Hang tough, L4. Take pride in the fact that you are fighting for your M. You have friends here to help you through this.

- Sh0cked

I don't state this to my H. If I do, it's prefaced as I can't stand what I've done and that I can't stand that I've jeopardized our M. I can't stand not knowing if we will be together because that's what I want. But I never imply that I can't stand his ups and downs, his asking questions, his anger and pain. I'm in no position to make demands on how he responds to my betrayal. If I find myself unfairly angry for any reason, I save those revelations for you folks here.

You're very early in your recovery, but here's what might help if you combine Mark's "what" questions with your heart commitment to "do anything to help your H heal". (Also, Road's suggestion that 'apologizing every day is bad' plays into this idea, too.)

Your H is showing good to great signs that you seem to be missing or at least downplaying. Here is an idea of how to tweak your perspective a bit to help you appreciate many things you have going for you:

1) He did not totally-physically-immediately 'kick you to the curb' and file for Plan D the next day.....almost, but not quite!

2) You are not in denial about what you've done....this is HUGE in the chance for your beginning recovery.

3) Your H is showing emotions and is not entirely indifferent....ambivalent and unsure at times, but if he were indifferent, he would not be angry, seeking help, or even speaking to you.

How can you appreciate this status more and use it to you advantage?

One way would be to see the positives instead of thinking "I can't stand flapping in the wind, never knowing if I'm in or out, up or down, in Plan A or headed to Plan D."

If you can, try to think I'm so grateful that my H is processing this with me and I don't care if my plans are continuously up in the air.....this is only for a season and the big picture plans will be worth a little unsettledness (is that a word) in this life-long process.


Here's an example of what I mean:

I want, but if my H isn't participating in trying to save the M, will it matter?

* He's being nice to me,
* (he's) communicating with me more,
* and we're having SF,

Your above statement is ambivalent when compared with the 3 points I've emphasized. Is he or is he NOT doing those 3 things? If so, how can you say he is NOT participating in trying to save your M. It's the only way he knows for now and instead of downplaying it, it seems you should grasp it, appreciate it, and build on it/them gradually.

but he's not actively working on our M as far as uncovering ENs and working on our couple-ness. At least not yet and I think (wrong?) that's understandable just 8 weeks post-confession.

You answered your own question....it's early. Be patient. Grab hold of the baby steps he is making. Continue to work on yourself, your inner talk, your internal breakdowns of the past that you now have a source for solving, slowly but surely.

Look to the future. See yourself recovering, even recovered and begin to act "as if" like Romans 10:17 says "Call things which be not as though they were". As you progress in this, you'll realize that you have many accomplishments under your belt that you do/did not see. As this happens, your need to apologize every day will diminish. If you're counting your blessings, you will see less negative....and as the negatively towards yourself lessens, your self-loathing (constant apologies) will decrease.

It may be difficult in the start, L4, and you'll stumble in the beginning, but you can do this.

You might start by making a few lists in your journal:

* Mark's questions and answers regarding "what" allowed the A
* Good things you're allowing bad things to overshadow
* What you can do to combine both to help you understand WHAT happened and how you can continue to help your H heal without beating yourself over the head continuously.


I have offered in every joint situation to stay behind or not attend if it will be better for H. What's frustrating is when he says, "I don't know," and leaves me flapping in the wind. I am a planner and I want to know what my day/week is going to look like so I can make the proper arrangements for myself, the family, and anyone else involved. So while I have been doing this, it goes against my grain to sit back and not bug him about whether or not he wants me to accompany him. And when he has said it's okay if I go with him, he says so with such low enthusiasm. I don't know if he's allowing me to escort him because he feels sorry for me or if he really wants my company. [/quote]

What if you change your self talk? See the fact that he "allowed" you to go as a privilege and capitalize on it. Use the opportunity to show him what a wise choice it was, regardless of his original reason, in spite of the fact that it was last minute, or even if he seemed to have a bad attitude.

You cannot control him, L4 (I know you know this, but it seems like we always forget and then get tripped up by our own expectations due to our own forgetfulness).

Even if he waits til the last minute causing you stress, seize the moment and be grateful, thankful, even enthusiastic about going....and make it a great event since your attitude IS in your control. (Do everything you can to control LB's, too.)

Sorry I don't have more time. I can't post from work, (which is one aspect I could help you with via email because I can't post what my work is since I told many family members about this web site before I knew these forums were here ~~~ and I'd hate for them to figure out who I am and what my H has done before we tell them ~~~ if we ever do.)

Thanks for your reply, L4. I may be posting in haste since I am short on time so if I'm saying anything that seems confusing, just ask and I'll try to clarify tonight.

Ace

This was a love buster too...

Not what he said, but your Independent behavior.

IB is a very powerful Love Buster. It is what leads to affairs in the first place since if you never acted without discussing anything with your husband first, you would certainly never have fallen into an affair.

Even without reading here, without understanding the Basic Concepts and without knowing the list of Love Busters, IB is still a Love Buster.

And to a BS it is maybe the most important of all of them. It was IB that characterized the affair, that led to the affair and that allowed the affair to continue. It was IB that emptied the BS's LB$. ANY IB is huge to the BS.

Here's what happens to a BS when a FWS does something that effects them without consultation...

* Why didn't she check with me?
* She NEVER checks with me.
* She's always doing stuff without checking with me.
* She hides things from me all the time.
* I wonder what else she is hiding THIS TIME...

The solution to IB is POJA. It stops IB and resentment in its tracks.

When we act independently we are saying "I don't care about you, your feelings or what you think." It allows us to get our way by not bringing it up when we know our spouse might have a problem with what we want in the situation. It lets us hide things that might upset him/her. It gives us a way to circumvent their feelings. It causes us to keep secrets and leads to a secret second life. it is the CAUSE of affairs.

Angry Outbursts, Disrespectful Judgments, Selfish Demands, are all attempts to manipulate our spouse into giving us our own way in negotiations. Independent Behavior and Dishonesty seek to shut them out of our lives and show that we aren't even considering what they want and have already decided what we will do no matter how it affects them.

Independent Behavior and Dishonesty go hand in hand. The first leads to the second and sets us up to lie about what we are doing since we can only maintain IB if we lie about it.

It's the starting point for an affair if it is allowed to continue unchecked.

Mark

Thank you, Mark. I know IB is a LB. I didn't do this. My sister had asked if they could stay here and while I really wanted them to, I didn't say yes before I checked with my H. I checked with him and he said he felt like he had to say yes because it was expected they could. I kept telling him we could say no, and I would support that, but I didn't understand why we couldn't since they stay with us often and because the cousins love being together. He couldn't produce a reason and realized it wasn't a big deal after all. I said the decision was his. And he said they could stay. He was reluctant about it, but said he would allow it for the one evening. So they stayed one evening.

The LB was that I yelled during the conversation when it turned to what I felt was an attack on my relationship with my family. This is an issue with us and something we need help with.

I have come to understand this. And I am trying to be completely aware and tell my H everything -- what I'm doing, what I'd like to do, seeking his thoughts on anything from how to fix the house to what gifts to get everyone for Christmas and what to do about my job. I want his input and thoughts and I respect his opinions. I've been trying to show him this.

Two things regarding this very issue of IB...

The topic of my family came up again a week ago. I know this is a problem for him (and thus us) and have been aware of it for a long time, especially since last August when we had a knock-down drag-out fight about it. He said I always pick my family. (He talks in absolutes. It's "always", "never", "no one", "everyone", etc.) I told him that's not true. He said it was. I proceeded to give him three recent examples where I "picked" his wishes over something my family wanted. He realized I was right. So while I'm doing something important for him that goes against what I want to do, he isn't recognizing it until I literally spell it out for him. I'm okay with that in the overall scheme of things, currently. He has bigger things on his mind now. Just bothered me that I am doing something he wants and he isn't seeing it.

The other was this last Wednesday. Minutes before I was to leave for orientation at my new part-time job, I read an email from my former boss about a job that I'd be perfect for. I asked my H what I should do -- this full-time job opportunity has my name written all over it and offers twice as much as the part-time job I just got, yet I was on my way out the door for the new job. H offered virtually no advice. As I was leaving, he said, "I can't tell you what to do because you need to act for yourself. You may be on your own soon so I can't tell you what to do. Make your own decisions based on the fact that soon you may be having to take care of yourself without me." It came out of the blue. I wanted his thoughts because he's my husband and what I do affects him directly, and I wanted his thoughts because I respect his professional advice. I left in tears. When I returned several hours later, he apologized if he made me sad. I said he did make me sad because what he thinks is important to me. He said he wants to make sure I'm looking out for myself. We didn't talk any more about it.

While I want to live and am trying to live and make decisions as a couple, he is telling me I need to live and think as a single woman. It's conflicting. Hard to live and think both ways at once especially when what I want is as a couple.

This means a lot to me, Sh0cked. Often I feel alone. Then I come here. And while us WSs are in the minority here, I feel a strange comfort when I log on to MB. Not coddled. But a sense of trying to understand. Thanks for sticking with me.

Your wisdom is invaluable, Mark. I wish I was familiar with it before I had my affair. What you are offering is having a big impact on me. Very big. Huge.

"The other was this last Wednesday. Minutes before I was to leave for orientation at my new part-time job, I read an email from my former boss about a job that I'd be perfect for. I asked my H what I should do -- this full-time job opportunity has my name written all over it and offers twice as much as the part-time job I just got, yet I was on my way out the door for the new job. H offered virtually no advice. As I was leaving, he said, "I can't tell you what to do because you need to act for yourself. You may be on your own soon so I can't tell you what to do."



Hidden in all of this if I remember correctly. Wasn't your OM and your old job affair related? Didn't the OM and you work together?

You're correct, TheRoad. My A last spring was with a co-worker. The FOM no longer works for the company. He quit in July at the same time that I was laid off. This position that my former boss contacted me about is with another company all-together -- one that uses my old company as a vendor, but it is not at my old company.

Have you in fact ever (even though not always) chosen to side against him in some way in regard to your family? He might be reacting to something in the past and not the present when you have these knock down drag out fights over your family.

I know in my own life, my SIL (my wife's twin) can give me problems. She is working on her 4th husband, her third being an abusive alcoholic who moved in with her before he was divorced from his second wife. Though SIL is a completely different person today than she was in those days, she still has the ability to trigger me in ways that are hard to even explain.

If my wife and I have plans for the day, it can be assured that SIL will call early in the day, at some point later in the day and at least one more time near the end of the day without fail. This is especially true if we are on a trip together or just up to our ears in a home project that requires both of us.

SIL was my greatest ally in breaking up the affair but she still makes me nuts when she interrupts conversations at the worst moment, delays our departure for some place we planned to go or just decides to chat just as we curl up on the sofa with a glass of merlot.

If you ever used your family as an excuse to cover for your A, it can be a huge issue for him as well. Not suggesting that is the case, but if he even suspects it to be true, it will be a problem for him.

If your family, or any member of it has ever been critical of him and you failed to openly support him at the time, this can be an issue too.

Just brain storming here...

Now about the job thing…

If your old job (or this new job at the old place of employment) was where you met and or carried on your A with OM, you need to avoid it like the plague if you want any hope of your H improving his attitude over time. If the place has anything at all to do with your A you should NEVER mention any thoughts of returning there.

Work hard at killing the love busters, L4. A BS has a LB$ that is so full of holes it is hard to fill up. Even those who have fought for the marriage and won and are now in recovery have a hard time with what happened. If your H is on the verge of bankruptcy anything that withdraws units from his LB$ can really send him over the edge.

Think about Dr Harley’s 3 states of mind in marriage for a minute. For someone in a state of INTIMACY it is easy to shrug things off if they seem unfair or in any way not what you want. Your GIVER runs the show and is willing to give away the farm to make your spouse happy.

But eventually the TAKER makes an appearance and demands equal time. This is a state of CONFLICT where you want to fight for what YOU want from the relationship and you don’t even really care what your spouse wants. You desire to GET something from your spouse and really don’t care about giving anything back.

In WITHDRAWAL you don’t care about giving anything at all but neither do you care if you get anything from your spouse. You simply don’t care. Your GIVER is packed away and your TAKER is not even looking for anything from your spouse.

This is where an affair happens. Your spouse is shut out of your life and you aren’t taking deposits into their account in your Love Bank. But you also aren’t making any deposits into theirs either, at least not on purpose. (Though if DS is high on their list of ENs, just keeping the house clean can work magic-just an example) You basically stop taking deposits because it conflicts with what you are doing in the affair. Letting your spouse make you feel good and building love for them is counterproductive to carrying on an affair. It removes the justification for it and makes it hard to keep it up if you are feeling in love with the person you are betraying.

But assuming his LB$ was not completely full before he found out about the A, once he found out, most of what was there vanished since an affair is the highest form of IB. If he was already in a state of CONFLICT, then any love buster of any kind drops him into a state of WITHDRAWAL and he pretty much shuts you out completely.

Now, as you do more to make deposits, he creeps back into CONFLICT but still hasn’t made it into INTIMACY. His TAKER is still in charge and he is not doing much to make deposits. He is also out of practice at making deposits if you prevented him from making any during the affair. So he isn’t giving anything to you at all.

But when you do make some progress and make enough deposits, he teeters on INTIMACY and all seems well with the relationship. But any love buster and he’s back into CONFLICT and can free fall into WITHDRAWAL with very little effort.

For many BS they are the one who must suck it up and overcome this dynamic in early recovery. It usually falls to the BS to carry the load at first because it is normally the BS that has learned about this stuff and is using the techniques to lead the relationship upward. But in your case it is you that must do this leading because YOU are the one that has learned this stuff and he doesn’t know about INTIMACY, CONFLICT and WITHDRAWAL. He knows zilch about his Love Bank and cares not a bit for understanding Love Busters right now.

And if you try to educate him while he is in a low state of CONFLICT into WITHDRAWAL, you will drive him away at the speed of light.

So, since you are here and you are seeking help and you are the one we can help change things, it must be YOU that does the changing for now. You get to take the lead in recovery and apply Marriage Builders methods to make things improve. Eventually he might get on board with MB ideas, but for now, you are here so you are who we get to keep beating up….er….helping…



Mark

I read your 12/22 response shortly after you wrote it, Ace. You hit the mark. In life I am usually so positive, the glass is almost always half-full in my world. So why am I not seeing and really appreciating anything good that is coming out of this mess I've created? I should be holding onto those moments and my H's forward efforts.

I'll try. Your perspective on this is better than what I've been bringing to the table.

He is doing those things. And I will.

Great advice.

I took your words about this to heart, Ace, and I did this throughout the holidays. I was clear when I wanted to accompany him and when he let me, I was gracious, good company, and attentive to him without being smothering nor being disrespectful of what I know he's going through. I was aware that everyone would be watching our interactions so I made sure I looked great and checked in with him often so he knew he was on my mind, but didn't hang all over him. I didn't want to embarrass him in front of friends and family. I feel good about how things went at the various functions we attended. And I think by the last few events, he felt better about having me with him.

Your advice is very clear and haste-less. Thank you for taking the time to help me. I'm working to apply your words of wisdom.

So glad to hear about your successes L4. Many of us have shared ideas, but YOU are doing the work. Keep it up!

Ace

I can't think of a time that I directly defied my H and picked family over him when he's been clear about what he wants. What I have done though which is bad, is I've witheld info that I felt wasn't critical but that I knew would still irk H if he knew. I have stopped this and am forthright with my H on everything now -- including my family's issues.

The conflicts come because my H likes his privacy and is pretty independent. I, on the other hand, am very social and my sisters are two of my best friends. For example, H isn't a fan of having people hanging out at our house very much. I, however, think having a houseful of folks, sleeping everywhere, working in the kitchen, playing impromptu games of Yahtzee, and staying up late doing puzzles -- visiting and laughing and sharing -- is great. H isn't what I would call a loner, but he's territorial while my family and I are more 'what's-mine-is-yours' mentality. When we have a conflict about this, sometimes H gives in, sometimes I give in, sometimes we compromise. I feel, however, when he compromises and allows more for what I want, that even though he agrees to "our" decision, he'll sulk and make sure I know he's not happy about what we're doing. As I've mentioned before this is a big thing we know we need to work on.

I never did this.

Critical, not that I'm aware of. Teasing, probably. Both of our family can be sarcastic and teasing. I'm sure I haven't defended H as he would have liked when my family has teased him. More often I'm a target of teasing within my family -- always have been. And my H will jump in and join on their side, ribbing me and laughing with them about me. Not every time. But I can't think of a time in our 25-years of knowing each other when H has actually stood up for me among my family. I have stood up for him --both to my family and his but not every time. (Funny that it's easier for me to stand up for others than it is for me to stand up for myself.)


This new company isn't tied to the A, but it's close enough where I can see what you're saying. There is an indirect connection and it would require working occassionally with people in other states who know the FOM. What was hard about this interaction H and I had is if I was single, I would go for the position. It's a great company, great pay, great benefits, and is a family-friendly company. I am married and am living as a married woman, but when my H makes comments like he did, I wonder if I'm being naive and if I should be thinking differently to make sure I can take care of myself. But you're right on this one. I'll walk away from it.


This is indeed what happened.


It's interesting (and appreciated) that he's made more deposits into my LB$ since I confessed than he did before. I'm also doing what I can to deposit and deposit into his without smothering.

I've witnessed this.

Hard to hold my tongue, but I do.

I put on the armor and keep coming back for more so I must want the "help". I'm lucky to have y'all.

I had a tough day and I can't tell anyone about it but you folks here.

The FOM and I used to talk a lot about spirituality, religion, and our respective relationships with God -- before and during our PA. Since my confession, H is having problems with things church-related and he has a real problem resolving in his mind how I can be Christian and have an A. So we don't talk about it because he believes I am a hypocrite.

I was listening to the Christian radio station this morning and they were talking about the last time you felt real love from someone. It hit me hard, that I don't know if anyone other than my children really loves me. I began even questioning God's love. Deep down I know God loves me, but I was questioning it and what I was perceiving as my whole undeserved relationship with God and Jesus Christ.

I go to my H about everything now, but feel I can't about this because of his current contempt for the church. No one within our church other than our pastor knows about our situation so I don't want to bring this to fellow church members. Which is where the FOM comes in. We used to talk a lot about our Christian beliefs. We differed in our levels of conservativism, but at the heart we supported each other in prayer and conversation. This probably helped us get too close and might have contributed to the EA which led to the PA. But I always respected FOM's thoughts on this. Seems ludicrous now. But this morning I was upset with myself for how I missed FOM's spiritual counsel. I don't want to think about him for ANYTHING.

I don't want to share any of this with H. I don't want to think about FOM in any capacity. I'm concerned about my doubts in God's love. I don't want to go to my pastor because I feel stupid talking about God's grace after everything I've done. (I may feel differently tomorrow, but tonight my shame is winning out.) I'm a little better about it all this evening. But any thoughts on how to handle this if it happens again? I'll take advice on the God part and/or when I think about the FOM in a way that is not negative. I know I've been putting on a show today since H is leaving tomorrow for three days on business and I want him to think of me not sappy and weepy. So I give it to y'all so you can tell me to get over it and move on. I thank you in advance for the smack upside the head.

L4,

As an old Sunday school teacher from way back I've had some interesting opportunities to share what God's love and forgiveness is all about over the years. Sometimes one even takes place that you just never could foresee and it lays the ground work for the voice of God to break through into a person's life...

One of those times happened as I taught my class a few years ago. We are still a small church but in those days we were meeting in a school auditorium on Sunday mornings. I carried the Sunday school to and from the building every week. We were paying rent every week that covered one class room and the auditorium so we only had one class. In this class were 4 year old kids and 12 year old near adults and every age in between.

It was one of those days when many less experienced teachers would have thrown in the towel and sent the whole class to sit with Mom and Dad. "Sit down! Be quiet! Keep your hands to yourself!..." I repeated these phrases several dozen times until I finally took a large book, slammed it onto the floor and waited for the silence that followed.

I told the kids, about 30 of them, that since we seemed to have so much trouble sitting still and being quiet, we would be spending the next 40 minutes practicing exactly those skills.

As We sat in silence I looked down at the basket of fresh chocolate chip cookies my wife had baked for the kids that morning. If there were ever a day that no treats had been earned, this was it. And then it came to me that THIS was what God's love and forgiveness is all about.

So I called on one girl in the back of the room who had been a thorn in my side all morning and asked her by name if she deserved to have a cookie. She hung her head and whispered "No."

"Come get one any way," was my reply and as she moved forward in disbelief, I called another by name and repeated the process. By now the shrewd ones could see what was up and so I switched the game on them and asked who had earned a cookie. Several kids raised their hands and I ignored them and called a half dozen more to the front to receive their unearned rewards.

Finally, as the last of the kids were invited to join in on the treats I began to tell them that none of them deserved a treat that day, but they got one because of my love for them. I told them that none of us have earned the right to receive anything from God, but that didn't stop Him from sending us the greatest treat of all when He Himself became one of us and died so that we might have peace with him.

Two full time missionaries, a missionary nurse and a youth pastor were in the room that day. None of them were over 12 at the time...

They GOT IT, L4. Being a Christian has nothing to do with being good. It has everything to do with being forgiven. If it was all about doing what God says is right, none of us stands a chance. We ALL fall so hopelessly short of what he expects of us.

David failed to do what God called him for. He was the king and instead of doing that job he decided to be selfish and self centered and do whatever he felt like. When it was time for him to lead his army off to war, he sent someone else in his place and stayed home to enjoy his own comfort while his men fought for him in battle.

He probably began to justify what he had done and was pretty much arguing with God over why he wasn't leading his men as he was called to do. He probably said things like "I've won my share of battles while other people sat around and watched me fight. Remember Goliath? I killed him when nobody else would even fight him." He might have said "I never get to do anything for myself. I'm always having to be a leader, the strong one, the one who keeps the whole country together.." He cold have argued that "I've been doing things for all these people for my whole life and none of them is in the least grateful for what I have done for them. I'll bet most of them don't even know what I've done and if they did, they wouldn't have any idea of how much I have sacrificed for them. Well, I'm sick of it and it's time I did something for ME..."

Whatever his reasoning, he was in self justification mode and so when he walked out onto his roof on a hot spring evening and saw a woman who he found attractive, it was an easy leap to send for her and set about seducing her. Imagine that scene, the great King David, the most handsome of men, the most powerful in the land, the richest, the most respected, the slayer of giants expending his efforts to seduce the wife of another man...who wasn't there for her. He was in fact away at war, fighting for the very King who now tried to steal what belonged to him...


So David committed adultery. He tried to cover it up by having the woman's husband sent home and when that didn't work, he had him murdered.

And it cost David so much. His family was torn apart, the child of the affair died, another son raped his half sister and was then killed by her brother. David's son led a rebellion and nearly destroyed the kingdom and within a couple of generations the nation was divided, then conquered and nearly wiped from the face of the Earth.

But even after all that he had done and all that it cost him, David was called by God "a man after my own heart." David then wrote:

Paul was a murderer who thought he was doing the work of God. He was so convinced that he had earned God's favor. Yet he later calls himself the chief of sinners.

The best thing you could do for your husband right now would be to pray for him. Pray that God would show him His True Self, His love and mercy, His compassion and forgiveness. Pray that God would teach him that we each have to decide what to do with God and with Jesus Christ and that God doesn't care who might be worse than us since none of us is what He requires.









L4, do you think it would hurt or help to tell your husband that it was YOU that did wrong and that God did not fail? Would he grasp that it was your choices and those of OM that caused you to sin against him and not any failing by God; that you failed God and not the other way around...

Don't ever doubt God's love for you, L4. He loves you enough to die for you even though you don't deserve it.

He loves your husband the same way too...

Mark

L4,

You have one of the wisest posters sharing spiritual truths with you. That alone should help you begin to overcome your feelings of unworthiness.

Mark,

Thanks for that great post. I'm going to print it and share it with H as it is a wonderful overview of a discussion we've been having for a few weeks regarding King David's failings and God's depth of forgiveness.

Again, thanks!
Ace

Thank you, Mark. Thank you sooooooo much. Geez... Thank you.

L4,

Mark is a very tough act to follow. I think the advice he has given you is priceless.

I would like to offer you perhaps a different take on the possible job and your H's response. I would also like to comment on the issue of how you interact with your family and your H.

First the job issue. In someways I think his response is a test. Will you take independent actions? On another hand, I think if you took a full time job, it will help him. How? Well, my bet is he is still in conflict as you and others have said. IF you can take care of yourself, it is one dynamic he doesn't have to worry about. You may not realize this, but he fears you being dependent on him, and then doing to him what you have done before. He cannot bring himself to kick you to the curb and not support you. Suggesting to me, that he does love and care for you.

So taking this job could be a good thing IF you two talk about it, and discuss his fears. Does he fear another affair? I know the answer don't you? Does he fear that you will lose focus on him again and seek it else where? Does he fear that he cannot be the man you need? Does he fear that he appears to be a "sucker" for staying with you knowing that there have been two A's? Does he fear...?

My point, you are seeing his fears about himself as much or more than you are about you. He has not left, he is being a pretty good H as Ace pointed out. Yet, he is in conflict. Who is he in conflict with? Himself of course.

You can ease his conflict by gradually getting him to talk, by showing him he is the man you want, by talking with him and telling why and how you need him in your life. By you truly and honestly realizing he is the man you want to spend your life with. You cannot tell him "don't worry", or "you are fine as you are don't worry about yourself and your interactions with me".
He won't believe that, but he will believe your own revelations about yourself.

As for the religion part, no one said Christians don't sin. All one can do is to reduce the sins and seek forgiveness for those we do commit. Mark gave you powerful advice concerning this.

Finally about your family. While reading you account of how you and your sisters interact, I was smiling. I sounds like great fun. It sounds like you enjoy having them spread around your Home and the sounds and smells of cooking and laughing. What a gift you have.

BUT, let's look at this from your H's point of view, especially NOW. He knows he doesn't make you as happy. He knows when they are there your focus is on them, not him. He knows he should let you do these things because it brings you so much joy. Yet, he knows that when they are there he loses and he cannot possibly make you as happy. Now after the affair, this sense of failing to make you happy is stronger and thus your family's presence is probably more of a reminder.

I would also bet, although I might be wrong, that SF is not on the agenda when you have a house full of family and guests, nor is any other sort of personal intimacy as your focus is on the guests.

Now I have painted a rather gloomy picture with regard to your family's visits, other than your H does probably get joy in seeing you so happy. It is however a double edged sword for him.

IF, anything I have said has a ring of truth to it, perhaps you need to reexamine things and see if somehow he can be made more a part of them than he is presently.

Just thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

I agree.

A perspective I haven't tought of. I IMed my H this morning (he's traveling on business) and told him I wasn't going to pursue the job. He asked why and I said because it didn't offer much growth opportunity, we don't need me to take it, and because I got the impression he didn't want me to take it. (No, he didn't say that, but he was so uninterested.) When I told H my reasons, he replied, "I never gave you the impression I didn't want you there. The impression I gave was for you to look out for number one." Your angle could be correct, JL, and I need to really know if/what he fears in regards to my work at any job.

I need to be more consistant and direct in this.

Fantastic advice from Mark. Among H's problems with Christianity is that one can sin, ask forgiveness, and then all is just fine. I'm paraphrasing, but it's what I'm understanding from him.


Before our MC last fall, H stated that he knows I have more fun with my sisters and best girlfriend. I knew this was true then too, and had been for some time.

Wow. I think you're onto something, JL. This isn't a but, but it's additional info. He used to get along famously with my family. My parents have always treated him as a son. My older sister hasn't lived in the same state as us since H and I have been together, but my younger sister and him used to get along famously. She used to think he was a kick to hang with. That changed about 10 years ago when the three of us lived together for about 6 weeks and they've never really recovered. They are nice to each other because of me and our children, but they don't hang out and socialize like they used to.

Not always true, but that can be the case, for sure. Though SF was very little before my confession -- not near what I wanted -- it has been unbelievable since. Coincidentally we have had overnight guests only one night in the past three months.

I want this more than anything. I often feel in the middle. When I have to choose, I know I'm supposed to choose my H. During our bad years I didn't do so willingly. I'd fight to get it my family's way whenever possible.

Another illustration about this difference in family dynamics... A couple of weeks ago, from research my H did online about behaviors our son is exhibiting, we believe he may have Tourette Syndrome. It's not pronouced, but we're worried. My H asked that I say nothing to anyone. He wants the privacy contained to "our" family. This is a case where I really want to share with our extended family because I'd like their input on what they see, I'd like their support, and their prayers. But because my H wants differently, I'll abide by his wishes. In the meantime, it's eating me up. We have an appointment with the doctor Wednesday. I know DS will be fine regardless, but it's hard for me to hold this fear inside me when I know many in our lives would be supportive and keep private what we'd ask of them.

Once again, thanks for jumping in, JL. Your "just thoughts" are great insight.

"A perspective I haven't tought of. I IMed my H this morning (he's traveling on business) and told him I wasn't going to pursue the job. He asked why and I said because it didn't offer much growth opportunity, we don't need me to take it, and because I got the impression he didn't want me to take it. (No, he didn't say that, but he was so uninterested.) When I told H my reasons, he replied, "I never gave you the impression I didn't want you there. The impression I gave was for you to look out for number one." Your angle could be correct, JL, and I need to really know if/what he fears in regards to my work at any job."

Then why play games. Why not ask directly if he had fears concerns worries that job?

When you first mentioned this job you seemed to really want it. Then you said it was not that good of an opportunity to your BH.
This is confusing.

Which is it?

Tell him "I AM looking out for number one...That would be YOU..."


But that isn't the case at all. Even for Christians there are consequences for sin. The only consequence we are no longer accountable to is the final one which everyone is destined for.

It's such a hard thing to imagine that no one can be good enough to stand before God and yet all we have to do is stop trying to do it based on our own self worth and ask him to save us from ourselves and accept the payment and consequences He already paid on our debt.

David cried out to God in Psalm 53 for mercy and God forgave him. Yet David lost his place as moral leader of his family and his nation. His children no longer looked up to him or respected him and a good part of the nation considered him to be no longer worth following. His child with his affair partner died soon after birth, his other children raped and murdered each other and one led a rebellion that became a civil war.

The consequences for David's sin reached generations down the road...

But David was forgiven.

Under God's law, the punishment for David's and Bathsheba's sin would have been their execution. It was what the LAW demanded.

But that is what the punishment for ALL sin is.

The Message translation lumps verse 22 and 23 together like this;

So sin is nothing more than working for yourself. It is counting your own worth as worthy and your own efforts as sufficient. Being a Christian means that you are no longer working for yourself since you understand that nothing you can do is of real eternal value before God. It is no longer working in order to be accepted and loved by God but BECAUSE we are accepted by Him BECAUSE we are loved by Him.

L4, your husband is angry and rightly so. His anger is because he has been hurt. He remains angry because he is afraid. Anger follows other emotions. It comes as the result of other emotions. We get angry when we have been hurt or are afraid.

So what is he afraid of?

Could he be afraid that there is more he still hasn't heard and fears that if there is he might think it is too much and want out?

Could he be afraid that you might be able to "do this again" to him?

Could he be afraid that other people might think him less of a man because he is still with you?

Be sure you have withheld NOTHING from him. Only RADICAL HONESTY will suffice from now on.

Show him by your actions that you have learned how to not do the same thing again...not merely resisting it harder but know what to do that will make it not happen again...that extraordinary precautions will be a way of life so that you will always place his feelings ahead of your own selfishness.

Show him how proud you are of him and how strong you believe him to be...and how grateful you are to still have him in your life. Don't tell him; show him.

Now for this:
This can be changed, L4. Become each other's recreational companion. He sees you having fun with your sisters and friends as a problem because RC is high on his list of ENs and means much to him.

The problem is that what you consider fun and what he thinks fun is all about are probably two different things. So figure out where the common ground is and begin doing those things together. The REI questionnaire can help with this and filling it out together can lead to some laughs as well.

Find those things that you have in common and build on those things. Encourage what is already there.

It never ceases to amaze me when folks are talking divorce and say that they have nothing in common. Beyond the obvious commonality of being married for X years there must have been something else there in the beginning. If there was no common ground at first the marriage would not have happened. SOMETHING was there and still is. We just need to look for THAT so we can have it again instead of looking at all the stuff we think we don't have and feel like looking for elsewhere.

It isn't a matter of focusing on the positives and ignoring the negatives but looking for the positives and dealing with the negatives.

And that's all I got to say about that...