I'm stuck, or I think I am, sorta, maybe ......

We've come a long ways in restoring our M back to new and healthier one, not without some hardships, but then I guess that's a given.
Despite those hardships, we've been able to get back on track.

I believe that my H regrets the lies, the secret life, the A and the damage that this has caused to our family.
I've seen it in his face, that pain and shame.
I see it with his willingness learn and follow MB philosophies. When he messes up, he's willing to seek further guidance.

Hmm, so what's the problem, right?

I grabbed this from Lil's thread. The word in my head for this thread is repentance and I think this fits just right with how to explain my thinking. link to thread Thanks Lil!

The seeds falling on the rocks represent those who hear the word,
but only accept it shallowly and reject it as soon as it causes them hardship
These people want to cherry pick the programme. �I'll use Radical Honesty except for the bit where I tell my spouse about my affair�,
�I'll POJA � but on my terms�, � I want my spouse to stop LBing me and fill my EN's, but I want them to love me as I am�,
and their rocks are the justification they use for their infidelity.

The bolded parts, (mine) explain perfectly what I think is the problem that we are facing now.
He's unable to look in that mirror of why he had an A, it causes him too much hardship.

In one breath he voices feelings that make me believe that he is remorseful,
if he keeps talking ....... it changes to reasons that were in the M. His lack of EN's being met.
It kills me to listen to this, and my H will say 'I'm not trying to hurt you, I'm just being honest with my feelings'

The biggest struggles that we've had during R on his side, I believe are related to this lack of self honesty about himself. Maybe.


During the hottest part of summer, you can see paddocks with brown spots in them.
While it could be insect infestation, it is often a large rock just under the surface.
As the rock heats up, the shallow soil about it dries up and the plants die due to the lack of moisture.
To rectify the situation the farmer needs to remove the rock before planting.
Sure the farmer could bury it deeper or even water more, but the problem wont go away,
the damage will still be done, just slower, and an awful lot of work will just go to waste.

'Rock' waywards need to have the rocks in their live dug up and removed,.
They need to understand MB is an all or nothing programme.
You only get out what you put in and if your not willing to commit to NC and UA,
and take responsibility for 50% of the marriage AND 100% in the decision to have an affair,
then kiss the marriage good bye, and enjoy that justification on those long lonely nights.

My H has said ' I don't like to think '. When faced with an emotional challenge,
his solution is to walk away from it, go do something to take his mind off of it.
He has made strides with emotional RH, I just don't see the repentance there that I need to exist.

Right now, he's a great H that I love and believe in, but he's not someone that I feel is not a threat to me in the future.
This is a tough issue to face for me, since I allowed him to hurt me as a wife for many years, and I still stuck around.

So my questions are ........ is this something that I have any influence over,
am I not doing something good enough,
what are the chances of him ever looking in that mirror and seeing his core, is it too soon to expect what I'm looking for?

All thoughts and suggestions are welcome!

p.s. I'm in and out of the house on my days home, so I'm apologizing now for not responding in a timely fashion.

Vit,

I certainly don't have any answers to this and to be quite honest, I am struggling with the same issue, and a few other serious flaws in H myself. I am curious to what the others have to say about this.......I also wonder if this is an issue that comes up in the second year of recovery.....

Just when you think you can't think no more.....

Not2fun

Hi Vitt and Not

I often wonder about my own repentance and how it reflects, so I am interested in both of your views and thoughts that you don't quite have it from your Hs. Also beig in the 2nd year of recovery.


The things that let me know that I have changed my thoughts and actions are
1) I avoid going out on girly nights to town - in fact since dday I think I have done 2 or 3. 1 of them was just drinks and I left at 10, the others were meals and I left straight after.
- I invite friends over for nights in instead.
2) I really really cringe when my M'd friends talk about blokes chatting them up and let them know that i disapprove.

These 2 things are major major - because this is such a part of culture over here for my age group. And I am still taken aback by how much my opinion on this behaviour has changed.

Can you point to specifics in your lives which lead you to feel there is a lack of repentance?

Would my change in beliefs and actions as detailed above be enough for repentance?

Hey Not, you have no idea how relieved I am that you are struggling with this too.
I'm glad you posted what you did, it's easy to feel like you aren't doing something right or if there is not true repentance within a year, the M is doomed.

Brings about another question of, what is enough repentance and is this individual to the BS????


ST, I looked up repentance and remorse also, both seemed to be interchangeable and both used the word regret to explain the definition.
By that definition, my H would pass.

Like you ST, my H can enforce his EP's, this is better lately since he is understanding how being thoughtless with these, affects me.
Like you, his view on loose boundaries has tightened up and he sees the danger.

Specifics for my H where I see a lack of repentance is not seeing that no matter what was wrong in our M, he had no right to have an A.
It's so disheartening for him to start with remorseful words, and end with foggy or blameshifting crap.

Another specific is, and this is what has brought all of this to the surface again,
he is reluctant to apologize to our kids and family. While he admits that they are owed one and understands how therapeutic for him it would be ..... he's stuck on himself feeling 'awkward'. His word.

Does J feel that you are repentant for your A?

Do you protect J with all of your might, not only because that is what you are suppose to do, but because you want to repair the horrific damage that you caused?

Do you blame any of your choice to have an A on your M? This to me is the big one, that requires deep honesty.


Feel free and most welcome to thread jack with your own thoughts. I'm not crazy about having a thread where I feel obligated to get back to, since I just don't have the time.
Another way to put that is this, if I don't get done what I'm suppose to get done, huge LB's to my family. LOL.

Carry on, we all learn from each other.

I am 20 months into recovery, 2 years past d-day.

I think it's a bit like N2F said on another thread - this is about when we start taking inventory. We're more or less satisfied that the OP is now out of the picture. We are feeling more comfortable with our FWS, and less like the marriage is 'work'. We're prolly not obsessing about LB's, EN's, and UA because we've got it more or less sussed.

Now we review what we feel we've put into the recovery and maybe there some giver and taker involved, we're feeling things are not entirely even. Even if they were there's that little bit that says "I gave my everything for you, I sacrificed alot just to make you love me" Heck for a little while I thought to myself "I sold my soul in plan A". Don't worry, I am over that one

So, we have done all this hard work and soul searching, and giving and thinking about the M for so long.... now when is FWS going to step up and give us the same. When is FWS going to carry the burden of the M and put us on a pedestal and love us body and soul and......

They don't.

I really admire Tst and the like on this board BUT I believe they are not the norm for FWS. Maybe because they don't regularly write on a public forum (if ever) you dont get to see/hear whats going on in your FWS's heart of hearts. I know I have to prod Flick every once in a while just to get him to talk about the A. Often what he has to say is less than fulfilling for me. He certainly does not volunteer any info about his thoughts on the A, on PQ, on me. So I have to rely on the poked titbits and I have to say over 20 months, the titbits don't add up to much

Summarising what I have got is that: He believes I love him no question, in entirety, without reservation. I will never have an A because I am so very committed to the M. I will never leave him because of the same. He now feels bad about how skinny I got during the A. Bad that I started smoking again. He had to dig deep to find an OP as low as PQ. Men lose their houses because they're bad husbands. He is ashamed of his affair. He believes DD18 going of the rails was his fault.

Actual things he has done in the way of recompense: wrote apology letter's to DD18, DD13, my mum, dad, sister and brother. Replaced mattress even tho he says they were never on it. Bought me a new ring. Totally O&H if I ask it (but again, doesn't tend to volunteer it)

Things not done: explained to his mum and sister in my hearing that the A is not my fault, leaving me feeling they still believe whatever nasty things he said about me during the A which he now 'cant remember' Dumped a hotmail addy PQ knows about. Answered all my questions to my satisfaction because he cannot remember the events.

I guess I wanted a FWS like L4, however, I got Flick. He's a marked improvement on pre A Flick, he is not now or ever, L4 or Tst or any of those other totally OUTSPOKEN and remorseful FWS, he's Flick with things in his head he doesnt share.

So, anyway going back to the rocks analogy, yes I do think our FWS have some rocks and I think that they would like to bury them. They would like us to stop bringing up the A because they do actually feel stink about what they did. What we have to decide is how important to US, that they get dug up. Honestly there is stuff I just let slide because it's not that important to me, other things are. Shoot, Flick has not and prolly will never even read that sermon, let alone apply it to himself
I also think that FWS can move along those stages..path to rocks, to thorns. I am thinking it might takes years. The vets on MB that are still posting AND declaring their satisfaction with their marriages have sig lines with "recovery for 7 years, 9 years, 15 years!"

Sorry for the lengthy post. I need a life

I can somewhat relate to this. I do have flashbacks of my A, and those thoughts are 100% negative. I just shake my head and call myself an idiot and the thought goes. As a man, I think we can compartmentalize the A and all the negative ramifications that it produced. In a way, the memories of the facts seem to evade me too.

My W rarely mentions it, but when she does it is a strain to drag all those memories and feelings from the back of my brain to the forefront again. That in no way is a reflection of minimizing my actions whatsoever.

Lil, there's a lot in your post that I can relate to feeling.

Taking inventory .... yup, is this good or bad, are we looking for flaws cuz we are still scared of the future, IDK.

Things are not entirely even ..... yup, am I set on just being more right than him, IDK.
I think I am more right than him.

We have done all this hard work and soul searching ..... yup, and my H has done a lot of work, more than what other WS's have done, from reading here.
I want him to do heavy soul searching. Without it, LB's are still hinged on.

This last part just made me think. With continued RH about LB's, might this eventually get through someone's head how damaging the A was??
Might they see as their behaviour changes, how horrible their behaviour was during the A?
Kinda like when you have the flu, after you feel better, you realize how sick you really felt.

As far as talking about the A, before last week, I can't remember when we last had a discussion on it. I stay away from dwelling on past mistakes.
When he started to talk about when it began, I thought of a post from SB. She said just let them go on like telling a story, and listen. (this was really hard btw, but I did it).
This is when I heard what I consider, fog.

My H can't remember certain things either. He also doesn't see the years of the EA as significant as the night that the A went PA.
He says that is more damaging in his head than the years of him having a secret friend, you know, someone to talk to. (insert pukey thing here please)

I know, we have to decide what it is that we want in our M. Right now, I want to know that those rocks will be picked. (kinda funny since it will be rock picking time around here soon!)

And yes ..... I want a 'tst' FWH too.

ST, I hope this is all helpful to you, in sort of a reverse way maybe???

See, to me, in my head, when you bury something, you want it to go away.

If you want it to go away, you don't want to deal with it.

If you don't want to deal with it, it's not important.

If it's not important, then what it did to me, is not important, or important enough.

So, is this my struggle, I over think it???? IDK.

My H says I think too much. lol

Thank you for this though, this is what I believe my H does too.

No, you are not over thinking. Your thoughts are very rational. But I would just add that men are wired differently than women. In John Gray (Mars / Venus) terms, women just want their feelings acknowledged; men just want to work on solutions. In a very over simplified way, that sounds like it might play a part in what is happening here. On a deeper level though, you don't feel totally safe. That is a feeling that he will need to acknowledge before you have a fully recovered M.

V,

At the two year and change mark I wrote this in my Musings thread:

The Affair Tree Part 1

The Affair Tree Part 2

I was thinking about this story a few days ago as I worked at trying to dig out and get rid of the last of the roots of the tree. A few still remain to be dealt with but the majority have been dug up and burned. Before long, all traces of the tree should be gone and then all I have to do is keep the grass watered and it should grow just fine.

The roots of the affair are pretty much gone as well. A few things still remain that I think should be dealt with but none of those things hinder the look of the landscape in our marriage much any more. Just like the tree is gone and you can only find the remains if you know where to dig and actually attempt to lay those remains bare, the only issues related to the affair have to be uncovered and made to show themselves by pretty extreme means before they appear at all.

It still would have been nice to have been rid of that stupid tree before it became such a problem, when it was small and not such a massive thing to deal with, but unless you know where to look, it is no longer there and hasn't cast a shadow in a long time now.

It would be nice if she was still a size 4, still wearing clothes that made her look great and was willing to drop everything to join me for whatever activity I could dream up, but of course I don't really do that for her anymore, though we spend a lot more time together and neither of us spends as much time pursuing individual stuff that excludes the other for any reason. The way people do that sort of stuff during an affair is really a sign of not being responsible in a lot of ways and life can't really revolve around each other 24/7 when you have jobs and family and commitments to others.

About the only time the affair is even in my active memories is when I discuss it here and the roots are only an ongoing project that get dealt with when we have time to do it without taking away from the life we now have together.

Now if I can just get the stupid dog to quit digging holes all over the yard, I might be able to have a real lawn...

Mark

Vit, this is what makes recovery so hard.
I�ve heard Pepperband say it so many times� �Recovery ain�t for wimps!� It really is hard work!

SMB struggles with this same thing. She doesn�t say it out loud much at all anymore, but I can see it on her face when she�s thinking it.

I think SMB has a healthy balance of both accepting our marriage as it is today and knowing it is OK to still morn the loss of an untainted M as well.

As far as a threat in the future�.. This is tough and it�s the reason I�m so passionate about EP�s. The EP�s are the only way to truly secure a wayward mindset of IB and move them to a position of protecting the marriage. If a FWS doesn�t have these written out it is doubly hard for the BS to feel any safety at all. And if a FWS doesn�t maintain these EP�s for life, the BS shouldn�t feel safe at all.




Will the MB program lead to repentance?? When I think about this I would say, YES! But for most, only with time. MB is designed to change behavior, but I think as the behavior changes so should the attitudes and beliefs�.. Keep in mind that these changes happen sometimes quickly and sometimes slowly.

As for your FWH being like tst�. That would be a bad idea, because you probably wouldn�t be able to stand being around a big ole� PITA like me!

......I never felt that way about Plan A, but I pretty sure I sold it in early Recovery. I KNOW my giver was running amuck.....and I'm not sure I can live with that....
I know Mr. Not doesnt feel bad about that......but thats okay, cuz i dont either. Heck, now that i have to watch what i eat and excercise, some days....well lets just say the affair diet was easier.....

Not sure I want to go there......I'm STILL struggling with this issue.......

Not2fun

Well honestly, you'll have to thank Lil.....she wanted an update on me in her thread, so it was already there when you posted this. Since I've been struggling, I figured I needed to jump on board. .....and I have to admit, that with this struggle in the M, I wonder if I'm being a phony when I post to newbies when my marriage isn't the picture perfect Recovery I would like.......

Interersting question......there was a link to this website on here not too long ago. It has a article on the difference between Guilt and Remorse.......www.Survivingbetrayal.com......

When I read it, it broke my heart, because I KNOW which one Mr. Not falls under......

Of course, then I wonder if that's a DJ.....(see, you aren't the only one who can over-think things..... :D)

This will be an interesting thread.....thanks Vit for starting it.......

Not2fun

I've just finished reading the first link. The analogy is perfect.

The further I got through it, I could feel myself get angry inside.

I didn't ask for this tree, and I can't believe how much work is involved in getting rid of it.

" I have other things in my life and the tree is now only important enough to deal with a little bit at a time."

I'm feeling this way too. It's not like the roots are in my face all the time, I really do work hard at keeping them suckering up all over the place.

Onto Affair tree part 2 ......

Interesting questions Vit, I protect the M and the family with all my might but I don't actually see the horrific damage I caused except to DS and to a lesser extent DD. But certainly I want to make sure my family is invincible and certainly not because that is what I'm s'posed to do. The rebuilding I feel driven to do is certainly because of the children's suffering.



I certainly don't blame my choice to have an A on the M - I am aware of all the events surrounding it. I have always been a firm believer that I create my own destiny and that I am in charge of my life (in total conflict with my sis who believes everything is mapped out). ie if I want something enough I can have it. the adjustment in me has come in reevaulating what is morally right for me to want. I wanted that escapism - I chose to have the A.

J does feel that I am repentant.


Is the amount of repentance necessary, in some way connected to the state of the pre-A M rather than the individual BS? (at the risk of being a bit contentious).

I'm not intending to T/J but I have to say that if my M was happy and I felt that my husband loved me - I wouldn't have been looking for someone to fill the voids.I wouldn't have had the A. If I had understood fully about M and boundaries and knew as much as I do now I wouldn't have done it.

They need to teach this stuff in schools.

Now, even when things are low and they were very low not so long ago - I don't look for someone else - I look to sort it with J and chat it through with female friends (usually ones met here). Always knowing in the back of my mind that the next option is Plan D and that me and the children will be just fine by ourselves

Feel free to take any 2x4s to my thread here .

Is this the type of foggy blameshifting crap that makes you feel disheartened?

Well, this one broke my heart. I've read bits and pieces of your W's A, never the whole story.

"Like that tree, many of the problems of our relationship over the years would have been much easier to solve if they had been dealt with when they were not so huge and had not grown so long. If we had dealt with each issue as it came up or had done what should have been done, if we had known of Marriage Builders years ago and had applied the methods found here to our relationship, the affair might never have happened. Today we wouldn’t have the need to dig so deeply into the past and attempt to remove those things that are now a twisted interconnected mass. Like that tree, we will be dealing with it for years or until one or the other of us simply runs out of energy."

I'm feeling fortunate at this moment, after reading your sitch. Anger to fortunate, I'd say that's pretty good!
I feel like this repentance that I'm wanting to see, is the last nail in the coffin, the biggest nail anyway. I'm sure there will be smaller ones come along, but not so disheartening like this one is.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Am I digging too soon, am I digging too far, am I digging for something that may not be there, ever?
Through MB, I have learned that there needs to be a change in mindset, not just actions, since one allows the other to be genuine.
This is how I interpret what I've learned anyway, and I believe it.

As frustrating as this is to come to terms with, I know that I can only control my mindset. I can remove the roots in my head that keep the suckers alive.
I hope you are saying that in time, as more of the smaller roots are rid of, the suckers (my issues) will not be so hindering to my own landscape.


And you know what Mark, I don't want to stagger our R with dwelling on this. I don't want this to replace our good time together.
This is the reason that we don't talk about the A, unless there is something left unfinished.
The last A related project, are the apologies.


I encourage any of you who are struggling with this to read those links and add your thoughts. I like to see other's perspectives, they help all of us!

You're right. Because I know that this 'normal' for BS's, I can accept this feeling of not safe. I also know that it should fade, and not grow, which it has to a point.

There is a lot of comfort in knowing the 'normals', helps to keep you focused on the end result.

In order to really repent, I think most people have to feel like the injuries that they caused were intended. One can feel shame, sorrow, regret, etc. when injuries are "collateral damage", but most don't feel the need to be repentent.

I imagine that regardless of how much introspection that is done, the FWS is never going to feel like the injuries they caused were intended. The FWS will generally think that the BS was "caught in the cross fire" of the FWS's misguided search for happiness.

IMHO, I don't think MB can change this. In fact, I think the MB principles accept that this is the way it is. And it's principles, rather than compel repentance, seek to demonstrate that there is a path to happiness that doesn't create collateral damage.

Interesting question...and I believe the answer is YES and I will tell you why.

We've had a really hard recovery, it's included FRs, very weak boundaries, knock-down, drag-out fights...it's been ugly.

Recently we've made turned another huge corner and we're on a fantastic path. Some good friends of ours are going through this as well and H and I are helping them...while it's been very hard for us to watch the hurt and pain they are experiencing, it's been very healing for us.

But even before this, I believe the true repentance began coming as *I* became better at meeting ENs and avoiding LBers...this deposited mucho amounts of LB deposits in H's LB. The longer I avoided LBers and met his needs, the more it's become crystal clear that his A was a huge mistake...and that his demonizing me during that time didn't make it TRUE.

This hasn't been easy...he was foggy for a very long time. I thought I was going to go crazy many, many times from the amount of fog spewing forth from my H.

Raising the bar high and HOLDING it there, while meeting ENs and avoiding LBers, standing firm on my boundaries WHILE being kind and loving has been crucial in getting us here, IMHO.

I cannot control my H...I can only control me. It took me a long time to figure that out and it was HARD to accept. I had to figure out a way to encourage my H to want to use all that MB has to offer, and what worked for us was for me to clean up MY side of the fence...to work the program on MY side. It's funny how that worked better than anything else I had tried. He Plan A's me now, probably better than at any other time in our M.

It's been a long road and we aren't finished yet...we still have healing to do. But at least now we can see the end of the tunnel...and we're excited.

If the suckers are removed as they appear, and as the major sections of the roots are dealt with, there is less to feed the smaller roots and those often just simply dry up, begin to rot and vanish as if by magic. The parts that are exposed as weather causes them to come to the surface can be pretty easily ripped out and disposed of as they appear and the only things that remain after a while only cause a problem if you are actually digging for some other reason and run across the remains of the root system and just take care of the problems they cause when they show themselves.

Like the roots of the tree, the roots of the affair very often take care of themselves as time and decay cause them to disappear on their own. As the marriage becomes stronger, more MB based and happier for both of us, the resentment, entitlement, IB and those things that ran much deeper erode until their is not much left. Eventually, they will be gone entirely without ever having to dig them up.

Mark

Interesting POV

My H didn't have these written out at first. After several months and the 'I must behave good because I'm being watched' era wore off, it became apparent that these needed to be written out.
It seemed like we both needed them clarified on paper.

As EP's were practiced, I do believe that H became aware of how important these were to protecting me. This, then led him to realizing how unprotective he had been, and how being unprotective had been hurtful.

So, I can see that and I agree.

okay, behaviour changes lead to attitude changes and beliefs. I can organize that in my head to be right.
You're saying time is a factor as well, I can handle that. I don't like it, but I have learned to have patience.

I think my biggest concern was that if that 100% true repentant H with no foggy thinking, was not visible by this time, he would never show up.

Maybe not, IDK! I'm sure SMB wouldn't be as grounded as she sounds, if not for a big ole' PITA like yourself.

Thanks for sharing SMB's feelings of future threat. I'm sorry that she feels this at times, I'm sorry that anyone has to feel this way.
Big boat with many in it.

Now I have to read about trees?

Dropping by to say hello Miss Vit. I understand the "stuck"...plodding on.

I've mentioned it before - the "stuck" must be normal around the two year mark for BS's - my EA notwithstanding. It'll be two years this July for us, and just a few months ago I was feeling super stuck - and in some ways still am.

and roots and suckers ...... haha, well yes you do there missy!
How are you black raven?

Yesterday, inbetween mowing grass, weeding, mulching, trimming trees, watering newly planted trees and moving plants around,
I would come in and read here. Then I would go out again, thinking about all the bits that I read.

I'm going to finish posting to everyone's thoughts for 2 reasons. It helps me to sort out what I'm feeling and why.
And, I know now that I'm not alone, so for the ones who don't post and simply read, maybe it will be of some help.

Today, I'm not nearly as focused on 'needing that repentance NOW'. I trust what other posters have said.
I trust the MB program.

I'm not stupid, blind or full of false hope. I'll be patient and cautious, for now. And, I'm okay with that.

I felt like that in Plan A too. I felt like the biggest two faced person around, and I despise people like that.

Not2fun, I don't understand 'I know my giver was running amuck', and what is it that you can't live with????

Never saw Lil's thread with your update. I'm very behind in keeping up lately.

The bolded ...... boy, do I feel like that too sometimes, so I can relate 100%.
I find that I have to be careful, I'm not detached emotionally enough,
to not project my own feeling into a thread.
I try, but afterwards I might think, hmm is that how I would have posted a month ago.
I like to think that I don't, but I'm sure it comes through.
The positive side to this is, that if I read a post by someone and I think, hmm ??? for whatever reason,
I consider the PMS effect of R. Not real PMS, but the same ups and downs.

Hurt and frustration can be hard to disguise.


I went to that site, these are the last two on the list and it is an interesting list.

Remorse is action, actively doing something about the harm one caused.
Guilt is feeling self pity and doing nothing about the harm one caused.

My H falls into both categories with that list, as I see his actions and hear his words.
These last 2 on the list, I'd say he falls into more remorse than guilt.
Bottom line is that he is doing more right, than not right. Lately anyway, we've had struggles.

V,

Don't forget that the word repent literally means "to think again" or "to have a another thought" as in "on second thought." It is a change in the way we think that results in a change in the things we do. Our actions change because we think in a different way.

From a biblical POV, the word repent implies no longer thinking that we have the right to choose right and wrong for ourselves instead of doing what God requires of us. It is thinking we can justify our own acts that is the very process of sinning.

I recently posted an analogy about thinking that infidelity is a line that must not be crossed. It is only when we come to understand that the line is merely something that defines the fact that we are in deed on the infidelity road that we can prevent ourselves from ending up in affair. Infidelity isn't an act but a process and each step toward what we define as wrong requires that we define that step as not wrong. Crossing the line only ensures that there will be a wreck, but the unfaithful decisions were made long before the line was ever crossed.

So the thinking that must change is the thinking that we can walk right up to some line that we ourselves have established as the boundary between right and wrong and as long as we remain on one side of that line we are not doing anything wrong.

Of course by the time we have to cross that line we have already justified all sorts of choices that were precursors to crossing the line and so crossing the line becomes a simple matter of compounding that same thought process and saying things like "I can cross it quickly and get back before anything bad happens." "I can just cross it a little way or part of the way and not really go all the way over it." This is the Bill Clinton process of being able to say "I did not have sex with that woman." It is accomplished be redefining the words sex, woman, not, have...we change what we have defined as the action rather than to avoid the action.

The reason EPs work so well at not only protecting us but to give the BS peace of mind is that a full understanding of the steps that led to adultery do not have to be identified and dealt with. All that needs to change is the process that led to the first step. So in essence EPs put a barricade at the exit that leads down that road so that we might never travel there again instead of trying to determine where the road might have become wrong. This allows the BS to be able to know that as long as that barricade is intact, there is no need to worry about what the FWS is thinking or doing.

So if a person has demonstrated a weakness of failing to protect the marriage when with members of the opposite sex under certain conditions, then the conditions must be prevented from being able to happen whether that means not being around members of the opposite sex or not hanging out with the gang from work on Friday night while the spouse is still working or taking that class at the community college or stopping for a beer with the guys on the way home from the golf course or even going to the golf course itself.

The trick for the FWS is to identify the first thing they felt required defining the act they were about to commit as not having crossed some line. This is the exit that lead to the affair and this is where the barricade needs to be erected.

What makes MB work better than other programs of recovery is that in MB you begin to understand that we must actively protect and nurture the marriage relationship and that anything we do that does not point to that is actually detrimental. In this regard both the betrayer and the betrayed are required to repent since it was believing that we can do things that do not affect our spouse that resulted in the marriage deteriorating to the point where an affair can happen.

This is the real breakthrough in thinking, BTW. It happens when we each realize that no matter what we do, what choices we make, we are either building or harming, even destroying the marriage.

Mark

ST, you often give me lots to think about. I've typed and deleted, many times trying to reply to this.

You don't mention J's suffering. How come?
I sort of have a theory, I'll wait though.


This one, particularly the bolded ......
seems to contradict the bolded in this one .....

Yes it is.
It certainly isn't his first thought when he speaks, but like I said before, he will eventually get to what you have just said, only more subtle.

Even though it's a glimpse of foggy/selfish thinking, it's still there and could/will revive itself.
I think also that it's a piece of the brick in the wall that doesn't allow a FWS to do whatever it takes to restore the M.
There is still that 'me' mentality, ever so small but it still has influence over your actions and thoughts, as to what you owe a BS.
These are my thoughts ST, they are not gold.

There's a thread over on SaA, 'Wheels spinning but no traction' or something like that, you should check it out.
I actually printed out a post from Gloveoil's thread, it was short changed on the paper and I have no idea who wrote, but I'm thinking his thread
might be a good one to read also.


That's good, yet you ask here about your own repentance.
I don't think that true repentance can be felt and acted out sincerely, until all the fog has lifted.
What do you think ST?

I would say no when it comes to A's, allowing a third party into your M is above the state of the M pre-A.
Both spouses knew that the M was unhealthy, (in ST's and V's M anyway), and still chose to remain.
An A is only known to one spouse who conspires to keep a secret life, this is an individual assault against the BS.

I think that repentance stands separately.
The repentance required to heal the weak M status, falls on both parties, to rebuild using the tools that we learn here.

See, this is what I was thinking. This is what has had me so concerned for the last while.
If the FWS does not seek out that introspection, how else can a FWS become truly repentant?

I couldn't see what MB tools would influence that.
I'm getting a different perspective on it now.

I think that this is a good summary. So, we carry on and get better at being the best spouse we can be. Got it.

I know that I haven't had it as hard as you, my heart goes out to you. Thank you for saying that 'he was foggy for a very long time'.

And I want the bar to be high. It's hard sometimes to do that without LBing.
One thing that I've had to struggle with is, using PORH with emotions without it coming across as a LB.
Or, sometimes when I would be very careful with my words, my H would take it as a LB. This is much better now.

I agree, it's hard. For many years I tried to educate my H to be a better H. Nah, that did not work.

I've found this too with day to day living.
Sheesh, I'm feeling bad now for questioning his sincerity.

And that makes me smile too.

I do understand what you are saying Mark. I don't want to dig roots up forever.
I need my H to apologize to our kids and family. That's not something that I wish to dig up in the future.
Right now it seems like a huge tap root dandelion. I want it completely removed.

What I get from this paragraph in particular, is that I need to steer my focus elsewhere. Focus more on the fact that my H practices EP's, which is an indication of thoughtfulness and care, rather
than the opposite.

What happens when an EP is not followed for the sake of not hurting someone else's feelings? (other than the BS) What is it in the FWS's head that says 'it's okay', or allows themselves to just
get to that line that you described? Is it not that 'me' mentality, that feeling of preserving their own feelings, despite how the other spouse feels?
Wow, that last part just came to me, I was thinking of an example of something that happened a while back.

okay, back to your analogy ..... the 'me' mentality that I talk about, am I understanding that you are saying that will fade in time with practicing EP's and MB in general?
Actually, that is what most of you are saying.
I feel like I've done a full circle, of something. lol

And, I hope we can get there. I think we can more than we can't.

Thank you!

okay so ... yes or no, am I on the right track?

Hey V,

I took my reply to your thread - I got a bit stroppy, didn't think it would look good here.

Please don't hate me.
Stroppy

I have been reading, just had limited time to get all my thoughts down.

N2F made a comment about feeling like a phoney to the newbies. Oh boy can I relate to that!
I know of plenty of times I have encouraged people to do something and though to myself "Lil, you a big fat hypocrite. You are not even doing it in your own M". Its so easy to talk the talk and not walk the walk. Then I think, well if I am doing that, what are the people who advise me doing?

The conversation about EP's... well sometimes I don't know if I think they are enough. Or that well adhered to by either of us. Shoot, on a bad day (fortunately not all that frequent) I am not even sure if I care. I guess that's part and parcel of recovery at whatever stage.
Yeah we could re write them, but even then I dont knw how much that helps. Sometimes I think I am an impossible to please wife. I think Flick might agree

And yes, I do miss the feeling of security the old M had, even if it was just a myth/fantasy/na�vet�. I said a while ago about how I am not sure if I believe in forever after marriage. Ok, I understand that makes me a renter. I am not sure how long that particular stage lasts. Sometimes I feel that the M is a shaky sort of deal and reliant to a degree of what I put into it.

Now before y'all start jumping up and down and saying stuff like he needs to make me feel safe via EP's or fill my EN's or something, lets just refer back to the impossible wife comment
Ultimately, I think I need more time and that's not going to happen quickly no matter how much I or anyone else wants to to speed up

Ya think?

Mark

Are you being factitious?

Or am I still railing at the fact that never again can I just assume that my DH will stick around unless I make sure all his EN's are filled to perfection.

Yep, railing. I keep thinking of statements I want to make and the little MB guy who lives in my head, keeps answering with annoyingly sensible replies.

"what if he does it again?"
you cant control that
"what if all this EN and LB stuff isn't enough?"
You cant control that
"what if, what if, what if?"
shut up. do your best. let it go

DISCLAIMER this is not how I am feeling today. Just reflecting on other days

{{{{lil and all}}}}....... While I can't say I've thought about this in awhile, I know how hard ACCEPTING that was. hey, maybe that means I've accepted it...

EXCELLENT QUESTION!!!!..... I have thought about that a lot in the last 6 months. I've often wondered if the discovery of an A automatically throws the BS into the renter category...I mean, how could it NOT??..... And I too have wondered HOW long that lasts and HOW the BS moves out of it, if ever???......hmmmmm

Vit, I saw your question. I will try to get back to it tonite, if not tomorrow. The answers are kinda long.....(and ST, I too was thinking along the same lines as Vit.....I too wrote out a couple of responses, but I didn't think my emotions were in check enough......I also felt I didn't know enough of your sitch to comment one way or the other......)....

Until then......{{{{{{{to all my fellow hypocrites}}}}}}}}}

Not

I can't remember the thread but Mr. W posted about an H being harder to work with than a W in some respects. I agreed with most of what he said as it seems to fit. Will ask him if he can cut and paste here.

Not really looking at the context that I'm placing this here...but if Black Raven says it fits, that's good enough for me.

Cheering thought.

Yeah,.....I know.....also let's not forgot Dr. H's theory of WH's are more likely to return to their AP's then WW......

FWIW, I do agree with Mr. W's post.......

Not

Yeah...well...

Plus add into the mix that many/most men aren't big talkers and like to go into their 'nothing' box...R may be harder in some respects when you consider the dynamics overall. I know for me, I feel like I have to pull teeth with H at times or remind him of this or that or whatever. During those dips I do start to wonder why do I bother.

Mr. W's assessment is spot on when looking at our R.
Thanks for asking for that post black raven.

Patience??? or a glass of wine???

The wine just won!

Have a good night!

That aspect of it all I am mostly ok with. I do believe that Flick and PQ had a very bad relationship the last few weeks. I do believe Flick found her bi-polar too much to deal with. In fact he said to me once that he used to sit on the couch listening to her and thinking "it's ok, she'll stop soon and then we can get back to the good stuff"
at the good stuff comment BTW

Also she has a partner now, and actually has been with him within a few weeks of our recovery. I assume she is still with him, I cant tell since I have either been blocked by her, or she no longer has a social networking page.

But OOW... that still concerns me.

I dont disagree with Mr W's POV. I just dont like it.

ST, psst, I could never hate you! I'm hopin' I'm still in your good books!

This has been nagging at me. As I reread it again, I have a different take on it, or I simply read it wrong the first time.

Using my situation, I wonder if what I feel is necessary repentance, is related to the issues in my M, pre A, during A throug up to d-day.
For years I sacrificed, (didn't think of it that way at the time) my well being and felt like I was giving up my own self respect.
It's obvious to me now, that during his A, my H's behaviours towards me were more hurtful.

Enter resentment.

While I thought that I had rid myself of all the feelings that go along with resentment, maybe I haven't.
Maybe there are still some of those deep roots, although cut off, they are still there, waiting to dry up.

btw, it's not an easy process to throw out the garbage that we carry around, but it is possible.
Some of it was thrown out pre d-day, just cuz I simply didn't care anymore.
The rest had to go after d-day cuz I had more important things to tend to than my own harbouring of that garbage.

So whether it's resentment or the need for repentance, the solution is the same.
As we rebuild a new M using all of the MB tools, these things will fix themselves, just like the roots and suckers fade away with time.

Focus on the present changes, and stay clear of dwelling on past mistakes, since they keep us stuck there.

This is what I've gotten from you all, not just in this thread but others as well ....... thank you!

I guess what I'm getting at is that he may have done the introspection, and doesn't feel like what he did requires repentence.

From the BS side of things, this whole A business often appears as a single point in time decision wherein the WS chooses to personally assualt the BS. And I don't know, maybe that really is what it is. I know some BS choose to condense it down to that.

The FWS often looks at this whole A business as a series of decisions, in which many of the decisions were "right" based on what they thought, or knew, or thought they knew at the time, and while the end result of that series of decisions produced great pain for the BS, when they put themselves back into that time and place, they would not have done something different. I don't know if this is right either. When Harley tells me the reason my WW had an A is because she "failed to protect her weaknesses", I don't know, it sure sounds a lot like the above.

So, I don't know what a FWS, who wants to recover, is supposed to do when they get to this point. They don't feel the level of repent that the BS wants to see because they don't think all of the choices they made are wrong. But, they darn sure can't tell the BS they feel that way. So, they walk around feeling bad about what happened, but not really repentent. Circumstance is the guilty party.

I suppose if I were so inclined, I could shoot holes in either of these views of the whole A business. But I think effectively implementing the MB tools require the BS to accept the second view, and perhaps with that, the BS has to accept that the FWS may never really be that repentent.

I would like to weigh in a second here. I think repentance is a gift from God only. God's spirit nudges mankind and then we have the ability/responsibility to respond in repentance. God can and does use people, MB, children, or any other venue He wants to be that nudge, but ultimately repentance is the work of the Holy Spirit.
As I have read the things written on this particular post I really identify with what is taking place and have heard my wife say some of the same things about me. Shortly after Dday we went through an exhaustive list of every detail that took place (that I could remember). She had me write out a timeline. I literally spent days writing it and tried to make sure I gave every detail she wanted. It was horrible for her and for me.
Still 7 months after Dday she still feels like I am withholding something. I cant for the life of me figure out what that could possibly be. She also has asked me why so many times that I cant even remember. At the end of the day the responsibility is mine and mine alone. It doesnt matter whether she was or wasnt meeting my EN's it is still 100% my fault.
Even though I have repeatedly expressed to her that she bears no fault in the A she still wants to know "WHY" in greater detail than I am able to give. I have no answer. I have really spent a lot of time trying to come up with the why of the whole A and have come up short every time. My only answer is unsatisfying to me as well. There is a great amount of shame for me personally as with my W. I even remember a few months before the affair when things were really getting bad and I was talking with a buddy of mine who was warning me about the potential of an affair. I told him I didnt care how bad our marriage got I would never do that.
Up until the affair I never had another woman in the car with me, I was never alone with another woman, never talked with other women about my marriage, etc. I had all the right rules in place to prevent an affair. This has actually caused more questions for my W. She knows I had all the right boundaries in place and I violated everyone of them.
I am not hiding anything, but honesty the only reason for the A I can come up with is ultimately I wanted it otherwise I wouldnt of thrown everything away. That answer doesnt satisfy my W either.
I also think I would fit with Flick in that I am deeply ashamed of my affair. At certain points I manage to deal with that feeling but most of the time I dont know what to do with something that I have brought upon myself so I would rather bury it, but luckily I have some squared away men in my life who wont let me just bury it.
I am not sure if your H or any of the other WS here are hiding something, but if they are anything like me it isnt hiding something but just quite simply having no other answer for what is/was going on inside of them or that they just dont have a place for it and since they dont understand or have the answer they pack it away.

Not sure if this made sense but I hear a lot of the same questions my wife asks in this thread.

BL, first you said that repentance is a gift from God. Then you said we respond in repentance. That doesn't make sense. Either it's a gift God gives us, or it's something we do (as you said, our response).

Repentance is not a gift from the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit convicts us.

Repentance is OUR RESPONSE to that conviction.

We CHOOSE to repent. It is a verb. Something we DO. Not just something we say and definitely not something given to us.

Some feel the conviction, yet do not respond with repentance. Instead they respond with a hardened heart, a prideful heart.

SMB, there are passages that speak of God giving us repentance and God nudging us to repent. I have always read those not as contradictory statements in the Scriptures but that Repentance is both a gift to us and our response to God.

Saw the thread was active and got to thinking...is it repentance we want, or are we really discussing our resentment?

ANyway, I went and looked at the articles and found this one which speaks volumes to me
Dr Harley on Resentment

I thought we were talking about repentance. I think resentment shows up when there is no repentence.

I think you're right there. But actually do we need to be resentful about lack of repentance? Is there a way of keeping boundaries tight which means that lack of repentance stops us from being resentful?

Good question ST. Because I do believe that a BS can continue to have a degree of resentment, even if to all intents and purposes, the FWS is remorseful.

I don't like feeling resentment -it makes me angry and not very easy to live with which then may add to the wrongdoer being even badder and we start looking for the badder bits instead of looking for hte gooder bits.

ITA.

resentment fuels itself really.

I havent been here that long, but has anyone discussed repentance of the resentment? I mean yes the WS has a lot to repent of, but at the end of the day bitterness, resentment, control, etc all need to be repented of as well. Regardless of what the WS does there must be healing for the BS and a time for them to go before God and lay all that on him...right?

I've not abandoned this thread, I've just avoided thinking about this stuff.
It's good to see others pondering.

Nice to see you BL!

As a WS, all I could really do was repent of what I did. I couldn't repent FOR DH, not could I pressure him to repent. In fact, the idea of thinking of him needing to repent didn't occur to me. I was just blown away that he chose to forgive me....because I certainly didn't deserve it. If I had focused on how I thought HE should progress, then I would have risked resentment myself, and I had no right to resent after I had just obliterated our M.

Hmm, I am assuming that BL's comment was directed at the BS's.s Standing by for correction if wrong

I actually read the comment just after it was written but felt it was worthy of pondering. I guess to an extent I have some sense of entitlement to my resentment. After all DH did X number of horrible things to me, before, during and after D-day, the A, the FR and early recovery.

Last night for various reasons I got a chance to look thru my personal thread from the time my elder DD ran away. We had been in recovery about 5 months at that stage.
My DH is an entirely different person from then. He is loving and sweet, considerate and very anti infidelity.

There is a well known adage on MB by Gimble about affairs resulting from resentment and entitlement. So how is clinging to MY resentment making me any different to Flick clinging to his resentment to justify the A? (at the time of the A, not now)

I dont know that I particularly need to repent of it to GOD, as I personally feel that it is something covered by my daily talk and examination of the day with Him. However I am wondering if perhaps I owe my DH an apology for continuing to resent him for things he hasnt done in nearly 2 years.

I have never been on here before, but have just spent over an hour reading through all kinds of questions and answers I have been asking myself! Trying to figure out all the lingo too I have been going through the survival of an A, and I feel I NEED REPENTANCE to get over my resentment...??? I am obsessive about what he is doing,who he is taking to and feel pretty pathetic about it. We are about to go to our 5th counseling session, and I feel like the past few all I do is repeat myself. I NEED ways to work through the trust issues, and the resentment. I've been asking for him to some how repent...but can I even ask that? We our going through the "honeymoon" stages I guess, and he is doing a good job, the transparency that I need isn't there, the " I'm so sorry I hurt you" hasn't come yet. He ALMOST cried at counseling last week....I feel like all I do is give, read (about this) and worry, he is trying to give more, but it seems so hard for him...UHHHH...any words of encouragement can help me. No one I know has gone through this, and if they have they are divorced. We have 3 kids, married 10 years...thanks for reading and responding.

Hi GM,

welcome to MB sorry you have to be here.

It would be great if you started your own thread. Also can you give us some more info like when was d-day, how long the A lasted and how long you have been in recovery?

He is a link to the 'lingo' here

Are you guys saying that a BS should repent of resentment that comes from their righteous anger over their WS's cheating?

Did Jesus repent of overturning the maneychangers' tables in the Temple?

Hanging on to resentment is not a good thing, certainly, and I believe that righteous anger/resentment actually should fade away as a process of forgiveness. The process, of course, should be much quicker, if the cheating spouse does not FUEL the resentment with continuing wayward attitudes and behavior, which indicates to me that perhaps forgiveness should not be given too soon.

Not at all. I was saying that I personally am possibly Just trying to work out the difference.

BL who is in very early recovery has a long way to go before his wife stops resenting his A, I dont know GM's story. The rest of us seem to be long term recovery-ers

Nope, only BL said that......and his question made me go......

I may be off the mark, but I read the original question as

"Repentence appears to be lacking in my FWS, I think I need to see that in order to move forward, will following MB make my FWS demonstrate repentence, because I'm starting to feel resentful toward my FWS about this."

I think of it like this, resentment comes about when our reality doesn't match our expectations and we feel someone else is responsible for the gap between reality and expectations. (Guilt and shame seem to be the result when reality doesn't match expectations and we feel ourselves are responsible).

First, I would consider whether expectations are realistic. For example, the most unrealistic expectation I see from people working on recovery is that the A never happened. (It may sound funny, but I see a lot of posters who deep down seem to think if they work hard enough, the A will have never happened). This is unrealistic. So, is it a reasonable expectation to think a FWS will be repentent? Probably. Only you can answer that.

Second, I would consider whether one is measuring reality properly. Again, resentment problems seem to arise because of the gap between expectations and reality. Just like the gap could be because expectations are unrealistic, the gap could be because we aren't looking at reality properly. The classic one I see for this is when the FWS says "I'm here, doesn't that mean something?" And the BS says no it doesn't mean anything. Well, it may not mean is much as the BS would like, but in reality, it does mean something. So, is your FWS actually repentant, but you aren't seeing it? Probably only you can answer that.

Last, if expectations are realistic, and reality is accurately being measured, then I guess it's important to consider how much does that gap matter. I mean if a FWS was perfect in every way, except they didn't seem the least bit reprentant, is that enough? What it really comes down to is a person going to eliminate their resentment by adjusting their expectations (which closes the gap) or work to see if reality can change in a way that closes the gap. (Keep in mind, adjusting expectations can include not recovering the M.)

I think MB princples can help the later. Not with some kind of magic in that one day the FWS just wakes up feeling repentent. But more likely because if both parties practice PORH, POJA, meeting EN's etc., then the gap should close one way or another. Meaning, if you say to your FWS, "when you do this, I feel like you are not very repentant, I'd like to see this, etc.", they are either going to respond with no help, (in which case you're back to to the above and adjust your expectations), or things improve.

Just my 2 cents.

Caveat: Dr. Harley says it's unrealistic to expect the wayward to act repentant at the start of recovery. Most don't. They rationalize that they did nothing wrong. Or that it was their spouse's fault. Or that it was just physical and not emotional, or just emotional and not physical, or some other special circumstance to keep the lover in their lives or avoid responsibility for their actions.

It often takes a LOOOONG time for a wayward to show true repentance. They are often remorseful that they hurt their spouse, but unremorseful about their own actions.

You can recover without remorse. Once the couple is recovered and in love again, THEN you can often expect true remorse on the part of the wayward. But by that time, the betrayed spouse is often not looking for "justice" in the form of visible, repeated remorse on the part of their spouse. They look forward to continuing to meet one another's needs and stay in love without hurting one another anymore.

So I'm going out on a limb to say that remorse is NOT a prerequisite to recovery. It will come, but often your recovery will be complete by the time the wayward finally owns that remorse.

Thanks for starting this thread, Vit. It's a very important discussion that I daresay all BS's can relate to. I have wrestled mightily with this myself and could've written most of your posts, word for word.

While it doesn't completely solve the problem, this may help explain it: I've noticed that, when my love bank needs a few more deposits than it's getting, this issue rears its head. When LB is overflowing, not so much. Additionally, we want to see remorse as WE'VE defined it. From OUR frame of reference (which is NOT the WS's frame of ref...THEY weren't cheated on and have not experienced what we feel about that.

With EN's, we have a right (and an obligation) to specify our need and HOW we want that need met. Have you noticed how our spouses often don't get it just right though, no matter how "specific" we've been? The MB plan does not give us the right to dictate our partner's thoughts, feelings or attitudes. That would be outrageous if we were talking about anything but remorse, I think. Easy for a BS to convince themself (and try to convince the WS too) that seeing a wayward's remorse is an Emotional Need. Gotta admit, I've seen it that way when my Taker was hell-bent on justice. But I don't think it's valid. (dammit. I'd rather be right about this!)

Just as our ENs are not the same, the way people experience their own remorse (or don't) can be equally divergent. And like the EN's, it may be that, in general, remorse breaks down differently for wayward men and wayward women. Just a thought.



Bottom line--I think a BS's struggle with this is an integral part of the rollercoaster. And we all know what happens to the rollercoaster when we're doing the right things.

Right Here Waiting

I'm a little confused with this one BL.
When you mention bitterness, resentment and control, are these what you feel from your BW since d-day?
If they are since the A, these are normal for a BS. I felt the same way.
As my H acted in ways to convince me that he was now willing to protect me and restore the M, those feelings have faded.
I don't feel obligated to repent any feelings that caused LB's, that were related to the A. (initial shocks and subsequent occasional meltdowns which resulted in big DJ's and AO's)

Are you asking if your BW needs to repent her feelings that cause you to feel LB'd? (all A related)

I lay my burdens and sins on Him daily. He knows exactly how I feel. In fact during the active part of the A I spent a great deal of time reading Hosea, and it was very insightful.

Healing for the BS takes time a lot more than the WS wants. I had a dream about my DH leaving me last night... over 2 years past d-day. I could have 'decided' to be in a horrible mood, angry and snappy. I chose to wake him up with SF. Thats healing and time in action.

And a great deal more fun for both of us

All depends.
I think there is a difference between wanting to cling onto it out of anger, or spite maybe,
and it lingering around due to lack of change of behaviour from a FWS.

Only the person holding the resentment knows the answer.

Vittoria, actually this is based out of what has been posted. I am not sure what the confusion is, but it seems I must not of worded myself properly. My question is this.

Even in light of the WS betrayal, does not the Scriptures tell us that we must have no part in bitterness and resentment? If it does and I am reading it correctly then regardless of whether the bitterness/resentment is justified by the betrayal it is something that needs to be repented of before God. It would seem for the health of the BS they would need to "cast their cares on him" which would include those feelings of bitterness/resentment. How each individual decides to walk this out is between them and God. I am just asking the question. If I have read correctly it appears that it doesnt matter whether the WS repents, begins to apply MB principles and works on the marriage or they dont because the WS will still need to receive healing so that they can continue on with whatever their life holds with or with out the WS.

As far as my wife and I go...there has been a lot of bitterness and resentment. I have done what I can. I shoulder the blame and from the beginning told her that it wasnt her fault. When she reacts in triggers I TRY (not always successful) to just tell her I am sorry and that I am working on making things right. I know that I am to blame for the majority of what is taking place. What I cant change is how she responds. I can change my actions, but not her reactions. So I just keep working on me and pray that God reveal to both of us what still needs to be repented of and what we can do to completely recover.

What began as a question of whether MB can influence repentance seems to have turned into a discussion of righteous anger and resentment...

First off, Jesus did not repent of his anger in the Temple. He had no need to repent of it. His anger was in deed RIGHTEOUS anger. It was not anger over being cheated or being attacked in His person. It was anger over the mishandling of the things of God in the Name of God.

The word repent literally means "to think again." It implies a change not in action but in the way one thinks about what he or she is doing. From a biblical POV, repentance is the realization that we do not have the right to choose between right and wrong (Recall the story of how Eve was tempted? "You can be like God, knowing good and evil." It's the only lie the devil ever had to tell since we all buy into this one.)and when we "repent" it is thinking that we can even choose good over evil, as in having the ability to make the choice, that we must change. It isn't what we DO that must change, it is what we believe about our ability to stand before God based on our own ability to do what is right.

From a MB POV, the mistaken thinking of the past is what must change. This mistaken thinking is really the belief that we can do anything at all that does not either add to the marriage or take away from it. Dr Harley's most basic concept is that just about everything we do affects our spouse either positively or negatively. This doesn't mean only those things our spouse takes offense at or only those things our spouse knows about or only those things that cause a strong emotional reaction of either a positive or negative nature. Whenever we do anything at all, the consequences of our actions either make the marriage stronger or tear it apart.

For a WS this should cause an awakening in the way they guard what they feel should be within their own domain and not a part of the marital union. Since nothing we do has no affect on our marriage, there should be nothing that is kept hidden form our spouse. It should lead to total transparency and an abandonment of the secret parts of our lives that make it possible to cheat in the first place.

But there is a change in thinking that the BS must undergo as well in MB. It is really the same shift in logic as the WS must undergo. It is a coming to the realization that what we do does in fact cause our spouse to either be in love with us or fall out of love with us. Each little choice that is made in our life pushes the relationship one way or the other. This is the action correction taken by a BS doing Plan A. We see that we need to fix some stuff about the way we relate to our spouse and we remove those things that get in the way of romantic love (Love Busters) and begin to provide those things that enhance romantic love (meeting ENs.)

As for resentment and revenge and anger and the word people hate so much, forgiveness...

C. S. Lewis said "Forgiveness is a beautiful word, until you have something to forgive."

There is this notion that biblical forgiveness is required of us in all circumstances. Well, yes and no. It depends on how you define forgiveness and it depends on whether or not you expect God to forgive you when you screw up on your own.

We are NOT required to restore relationships with those who hurt us. We are told however that if we fail to forgive those who have hurt us then God will not forgive us. It is those who have been forgiven what they feel is the most who have the most to lose and so those people are the ones most likely to freely offer forgiveness. He who is forgiven much, forgives much.

But I'll take one more step along that road and say that if you think you have nothing to be forgiven you have really missed the whole point and are probably still trying to justify your own actions before God and still buying into the lie of the devil thinking that you can even make the choice yourself.

There is also this idea that forgiveness requires repentance. Yes and no. No it does not require that someone be repentant in order that we might forgive them. (See Romans 5:8) God did not wait for us to repent before providing for our forgiveness.

The answer though becomes "yes" when we look at it from the side of the one being forgiven. It does not require the transgressor to be repentant to forgive them but it does require that they be repentant in order that they might be forgiven in that in order to receive the forgiveness already offered, their own thinking must change.

So the transgressor cannot demand forgiveness since that is based on self justification and self justification is the very thing that needs to be repented of in order to be forgiven.

Resentment leads to entitlement and entitlement leads to self justification of doing what we want to do without regard for our spouse. So Resentment is antithetical to MB and to a healthy marriage since those are the very things that lead to affairs. "I can do this and it won't affect my marriage because..." (I'm entitled to it, because I feel like it, because he/she hurt me, because____.) If resentment can never be let go of, the marriage can never become a great MB marriage since holding power and leverage over our spouse is NOT good for the marriage and is one of those things that affects our spouse negatively.

If you find it hard to let go of the resentment, examine what you believe gives you reason to think you are entitled to resentment. It might be that you do not see full investment from your spouse and THAT can mean that there has been no repentance on his or her part, that is, they still believe THEY were entitled to what they did and they didn't mean to hurt you but they thought they could just do this one thing and it wouldn't matter to you because it was all about them....all that wayward self justifying entitled crap that we know so well...

But first be sure that you aren't hanging onto resentment so that you can have leverage in future negotiations. In Euchre you might have the Left and Right and an Ace to back them up. You can play them at any time...

But once the game is over and you are playing another hand, you can't play those cards any more because they are no longer yours to play. You don't get to keep them when the deal passes and when the next hand is dealt. If you want to play your power cards, you have to do it during the hand that is being played. You can't keep them to be played at a later date in order to give you an advantage over your spouse for the remainder of your marriage.

Righteous anger comes from outrage over wrongs being committed. Anger that comes from being wronged is NOT righteous anger at all. It is anger from our own selfishness. Jesus did not need to repent of His anger because His anger was over the wrongs being done. When a week later the same people were nailing Him to a wooden beam to put him to death in the most agonizing and shameful way ever invented, His words were "Forgive them..." He was not angered by the most horrific personal attack ever committed on a totally innocent Man.

If you don't let go of resentment, you will never heal your marriage. Resentment is antithetical to PORH and POJA. Holding back resentment in order to gain advantage works against restoring the relationship.

I did NOT say you are not entitled to feel hurt nor that you can't be angry over being personally attacked in such a way. But the anger must be controlled in order to have a good marriage since AOs no matter the trigger are detrimental to the marriage.

Feeling hurt by what has happened is NOT the same as holding resentment for what has happened and so the whole thing about hanging onto resentment does not apply. However If you wish to stop feeling the pain over and over again, you have to learn to control what you choose to think since we can't choose how we feel but we can choose what we think and recalling the painful events is what triggers us to feel the pain all over again. Some can do it alone. Some need help. Some need meds. Some need to divorce in order to get over it...

Mark

There were times that I wondered if DH would forgive me. And I believe in forgiveness. I could have told him that story of the man who was forgiven the large debt by the king and then refused to forgive his friend the small debt. I could have shown him verses about the root of bitterness and not repaying evil for evil. I could have taken a stick and poked a hornet's nest! Quite honestly, I had too much to do removing the log and its horrible damamge from my own eye to worry about the speck in my DH's. He did forgive, but it was a process, not an event. And he did it on his own. Just like repentance cannot be forced, neither can forgiveness. And considering I was the one who caused/did what he needed to forgive, it really wasn't my place to tell him when and how to do it. In fact, when I hear someone become more and more concerned about how others should be responding and less and less concerned about what they themselves should be doing....red flags start popping out all over the place.

Dang Mark...I just became a fan

Almost right, rprynne. I don't think I'm starting to feel resentful over the lack of repentance that I percieve, like I said though, maybe I still have some resentment from before d-day.
Maybe you hear it in my posts and I'm not recognizing it as such. IDK.
So, the first part of your statement is correct.
When I started the thread, I think I felt more anger/anxiety.
Hearing from others that time and practicing MB not only the tools but as it relates to infidelity, can affect repentance has settled my anxiety on that, somewhat.


This in particular made much sense to me and I'm guilty of this. It's my own expectation that is dragging me down.
I think this is normal for a BS to do in order to want to protect themselves.

While I understand what you are saying DNM, this part I see differently. I think there has to be some level of remorse to begin R.
No remorse to me equals a WS who isn't willing to agree to NC, change the environment that set the stage for an A, or follow EP's.

Another thank you for knowing what I'm feeling is par for the course.

I so agree with this. In the past we both have been able to identify when our UA is down, with a resultant low $LB.
This isn't the case now. My $LB was good, until my H started talking....... and the fog was revealed. This is why I can relate to what ryprne posted about expectations.
And you're right, it's how we the BS define the remorse. I also understand that there is a degree of fog that will take a long time to fade away, and this happens as romantic love is achieved. I get that.
When a WS still has a part of their mind believing that the A was the BS's fault, that is too much for me.

I feel it is an EN right now, a big one. It's actually a LB, and so much so that I'm not really feeling like I want to meet his EN's.
I know, I know, I know, I see how this is so wrong, I'm being honest.

Sometimes I think that cuz I've been here reading and learning and growing, (yes, I think I have ) I'm so much further ahead than my H. I wonder if he will ever get it. I want him to, I need him to.
I don't want the M that we had before, that part of his thinking, is still there. ugh.

One issue I have with the remorse thing is that on one hand you have people saying unrepentant/unremorseful waywards are wayward forever, and then in SAA page 84 Dr Harley says if feelings of remorse are not felt by the WS, then they should not apologise. Focusing on the future M not the past M is preferable.

Later on on page 90 he says sue NEVER apologised.

Jon and Sue apparently did all the required policies, fell back in love and as they say 'lived happliy ever after'
But Sue never apologised. I think there was something in there that she felt she had done something for herself finally.

Vit - I've kind of skimmed through this post, so I apologize in advance if this has been covered already.

What is it you're looking for from your H? Has he apologized at all, has he taken steps to clean up his side of the street? Assuming for a moment he has done those things, what would repentance from him look like? What specific behaviors are you looking for from him, that you aren't getting?

I guess it depends on your definition of "recovery". Dr. Harley defines the beginning of recovery as the end of withdrawal from he lover. Here's something he has to say on the subject of remorse from the wayward:


These words were what it took to get my recovery started. I expected remorse, regret, and deep sadness for the pain my wife inflicted on us, and instead all I got was justification, rationalization, and pleadings of innocence. She finally expressed remorse -- not just for hurting me, but for what she did that caused this incident in our marriage -- about five months after the No-Contact day.

And I, in turn, apologized for my role in not meeting her needs in so many ways, and vowed to do what I could to meet her needs and avoid all Love-Busting behaviors in the future.

And that is working.




That described my wife to a Tee before no-contact day. Some affairs end, like my wife's did, more because the AP stopped responding to her advances. And EP's were only submitted to grudgingly because it took a period of separation from the lover before she finally realized I was her only sure thing, and he had apparently left her life forever.

This is where she WAS, not where she IS now. We went through months of hell before she really got on-board with the whole MarriageBuilders thing, read SAA, and understood where I was coming from. It was after reading SAA four months after NC-day that she finally admitted remorse for how she acted, and realized that developing this "friendship" with the OM was her first error. And she's been excellent about policing her own EPs since then... and mine, too

I don't think I'm hearing anything different, just making an inference by "following the bread crumbs."

First this,


Which seems to be caused by this


Which you seem to believe is caused by this.


Which you seem to be questioning whether that is caused by this.


Which, I guess if I reword, seems to be saying, if he would be more introspective, he would demonstrate repentence, which would alleviate your fears and allow you to be unstuck. I may be wrong, but this just seems like a scenario that would tend to create resentment. Especially so, if your brain ever concludes that he's doing this on purpose, so to speak. FWIW, many times, I have felt the same way.

I think Broken's post is spot on in asking what are you looking for. Maybe there are certain actions you need to see that demostrate reprentence. It's also possible to take that up a level. Maybe you don't need to see repentence as much as you need to see things that make you feel safe. Meaning you are perhaps speculating that observable repentence will make you feel safe, but maybe something else will accomplish this task.

Understanding that is probably important, given Doormat's Harley citation noting that repentence is not neccessarily a recovery requirement.

I may ramble a bit, but here is how I relate to a little of what you are posting. My first response on d-day was really about what did I do wrong. So, I read books, I came here, I went to therapy, did a lot of soul searching, etc. At first, I was like most people and was really looking for a way to get my wife back. But, my FWW really drug her feet about recovery. So it really became more and more about me trying to be a better person.

I think that there are two drivers of observable changes in people. The first, I would call objective oriented changes. The second, I would call principle oriented changes. It's the difference between acting like a good person in order to get something versus being a good person regardless of what happens. Now, I think making the first kind of change is really simple, requires little introspection, and isn't sustainable because once what someone wanted is obtained, the change goes away. The second one is harder to do, requires more work, but is much more sustainable.

To try and give a real world example, I used to have AO's. I said them to hurt my FWW's feelings. My FWW pointed this out to me. My therapist pointed this out to me. Initially, I responded by thinking I was justified in my actions, but I was also smart enough to realize that my FWW wasn't coming back if I kept being mean. I could have easily stopped there and decided, well I'll be nice enough to get her back, but then whatever happens from there happens. But I didn't, I really considered it, thought about it and decided that there is no reason for me to have AO's. I made a change in my behavior because it was the right thing to do and I didn't care whether it caused my FWW to return or not. Either way, I wasn't going to be that way. My FWW knows this, and I think it gives her a great deal of confidence that it won't happen again.

I sometimes think this is the process that a BS is really looking for in order to feel safe. For the FWS to step beyond that level of just following the program into actually believing the principles. (Maybe not even the MB principles, but some sort of principles that allow us to predict what they will do in the future). It allows the BS to feel safe that the FWS is not just making these changes to weather the storm, but has really decided to be a better partner. Intuitively, we know/suspect that can't happen without some major introspection and some major revelations. When we don't see that, we remain feeling unsafe.

Caveat: Different religions have differing meanings of the word "repentance". The Christian sense usually requires an admission of guilt, apology and restitution to those affected, and a promise to not repeat the behavior in the future.

For a strict orthodox Jew, repentance may require sackcloth and ashes.

To the nonbeliever, it may very well only mean regret for one's actions.

I think we betrayed spouses are often expecting repentance to include apology, restitution, and admission of guilt, when the only thing the wayward is able to give at the beginning of recovery, or in the state of withdrawal pre-recovery, is a promise not to repeat the behavior, and regret for hurting their spouse.

I agree that most define it this way.

I guess I wonder, if repentance is what BS's really want or do they want what it appears to demonstrate. Repentence is generally evidence of change. When I read the Harley comment, I somewhat infer that it is best to care about the actual change, rather than the evidence of the change.

I can't remember exactly how long after NC, it was more than 5 months, my H expressed that remorse too, and I saw it in his face. I felt it, if that makes any sense.
Here's what I'm dealing with now, I'm seeing, not only through his words, but some of his actions, lack of 100% responsibility for the A, IB with DH via just not telling me,
and a " I can't believe you don't believe me " when I expressed how I felt about the LB's I've just mentioned.
It seems like he's gone backwards, or has he, I don't think the 'me' mentality has ever left. I think it has just been suppressed long enough to soothe me and satisfy him
that he has done his part.
IOWs, it has become inconvenient to remain the 'repentant' WS, this is how I see it.
I don't see this sort of behaviour all the time, it comes in spurts, then he is the loving and doting H. So there lies my confusion, I get stuck in skeptical mode.

I've done this also, I've acknowledged to my H how I contributed to the weak M, and I've apologized to him.
Like you, I think this is an important aspect to restoring the M to a new and better one.
I feel like if I didn't recognize my lousy half, I wouldn't make a very good R partner. I'm speaking of my M specifically.

And you know what, sometimes I wonder if it makes a difference how the A ends. If the WS confesses on their own,
they are willing to take the consequences and truly hope to rebuild the M, as opposed to a WS that is caught, and feels pressured/guilt to go through the steps towards R.
It doesn't really matter I guess, the plan is the same, but does the fog take longer to lift, is the length of the A a factor ......

This is great, I can say most of this about my H too, minus the 'excellent'.

Maybe this thread should be Can MB influence the expected repentance of the BS????

Thanks for that quote by the Dr., I've read it before but unless I can relate to it at the time, it doesn't always sink in the same way.
Good chat DNM.

rprynne, you have put everything in my head in perfect order through this whole post.
I've already printed it out for a reference.

I agree 100% with how you see, what I am looking for.

thank you.

I think I only "feel" it when I'm in Intimacy. When I'm in Conflict, anger rears its ugly head again and I resent. As Dr. Harley counsels, though, if you only resent your spouse when your needs are going unmet or your wayward spouse is Love-Busting you, it's completion of Recovery that's the problem, not resentment.

So how often I "feel" the change from my spouse, I think, is a really good indicator of how well she's taking care of me at the moment. And the solution to when I feel she isn't taking care of me well enough is Radical Honesty, to say what I think is going wrong, Thoughtful Requests to improve our ability to meet one another's needs, and Respectful Persuasion to help her see the necessity of improvement. And typically, when I try to persuade her, the persuasion ends up going both ways because there are things I'm doing or not doing that need changing, too...


Solution: Jennifer Harley Chalmers asked us to sit down every night at 8:33 PM to discuss our feelings for the day. It was in the context of journaling, but it has become our tradition to spend 10-15 minutes discussing the major events of the day, particularly anything that will have any impact on our spouse.

We have a lot more time elsewhere, but this time every day, started with the statement "Tell me about your feelings today" or "Did you journal today?" is an open invitation to make sure that any IB is accounted for.


How would you feel about approaching it differently? Rather than talking about how hurt you are, what do you think about expressing it like this?

"Honey, I would love it if I were included in your decision-making when you are away from me. How would you feel about calling me when you're about to make important decisions that affect both of us like these?"

Invitation to discussion. POJA.



Three States Of Marriage. What state are you in? What state is he in? Chances are good his Taker is on overdrive right now because he's not in Intimacy, and that's what drives Independent Behavior. How do you draw one another into Intimacy again? If you do, he'll instinctively make decisions that protect you, and take to reasonable suggestions for change like a duck to water. If he's in Conflict, you'll have a very hard time persuading him of anything at all.

My wife has a technique that works really well on me: she waits until the morning after we've made love (or a few hours afterward) to Respectfully Persuade me of things. This helps her be sure I'm in a state of Intimacy, because SF is my #1 EN. I, in turn, try to really chat her up and show extra affection to ensure she's in Intimacy before I bring up difficult subjects, too.

It's important to not delay Radical Honesty for a convenient time, but I think that efforts at Thoughtful Requests and Respectful Persuasion, on the other hand, do work better if timed well to ensure both are in a state of Intimacy.


If you're remaining skeptical most of the time, he's not doing well meeting your needs and avoiding LBs. Identify the specific LBs he engages in regularly, even the small ones, and use the techniques in the "Love Busters" book to help change those together. Also figure out how he could better meet your emotional needs, because you need to keep those deposits flowing, and encourage him to meet them with "I'd love it if" and "How would you feel about..." sentences.


ABSOLUTELY. My FWW was caught. She didn't think she deserved any of the treatment she received. She didn't feel it was necessary. In fact, she thought that she deserved my thanks for not sleeping with him, despite having the opportunity to do so. And she didn't feel that her having seriously discussed how to divorce me and marry him was that big a deal.


Yep. The way out is the same. It's hard to believe the FWW I love, napping in the bed next to my chair as I work from home, is the same WW who, 10 months ago, was lying to me every day about not contacting OM just seconds after sending him loving emails and suggestions that if they had just managed to keep the secret better, everything would have been OK.


My phrase when my FWW has trespassed EPs has been "When I learn X, I feel Y." Like "When I learn that you've been hiding photos of OM from me, I feel very unsafe in this marriage and very depressed." Have you tried those kinds of statements in hopes of helping him recognize his Love-Busting behaviors?


Exact same. If it ain't relevant to me right now, it tends to get glossed over. Which is why I read really important books over and over again.

I'm sorry broken soul, you had a specific and a really good question, that I've not answered.
I needed to think on it and put the specifics into categories.
In general, verbally acknowledging responsibility for 100% of the A, following EP's without giving excuses, no negotiation of what his boundaries should be,
and apologizing to our families, most specifically our kids. I wasn't the only one that he scoured at, was lied to or time was taken away from.
Over the years, the kids and I were without the father and husband that he has slowly become.

You know, it's hard to explain, I hate to rag about him since he has made great strides. There's a tug there that I can't let go of.
The risk of ignoring it, is too great.
The risk of repeated hurtful behaviour is too great, and I'm not just speaking of another A.
I want my family protected, 100%.

We are still less than 2yrs. out from d-day, and to his credit, he still has sessions with the MB coach. This is great and I tell him that.
I am purposefully avoiding more talks about this apology right now, what I wanted from all of you was to sort out my frustration,
and gain some insight. Calm me down, KWIM.

We have time on our side and I do believe that this can all be fixed.

How's that!

Just wanted to expand on a couple of these points.

This was my response after d-day too. H was not fully on board with R, he was still lying for four months and simply trying to cover his a$$. What effort he did, was from guilt
of being caught. Wow, this is like looking back on movie that you couldn't understand while watching it, but watching it again, it's clear as a bell.
This explains my repentance/amends, I felt that I needed to do for my 50% of the weak M.

Totally understand and believe this. This is what I couldn't put into words as good as what you have.
My H, I believe is the first, (change to get good, little introspection).
I am the second one, in progress!

And like I said, the rest of your post, spot on.

How much of this progress do you share with your FWS?

I think DoNoMo had some good points. I also think sharing your thoughts and beliefs with your FWS can be a solid way to elicit evidence of the introspection that you seek.

What I mean is perhaps rather than asking him what he thinks about life, relationships, etc., start talking about what you think and let him respond. I would also say you probably get better results if you can keep it off of your personal MB/recovery topics. For example, if you've just read a good book, talking about the moral dilemas of some of the characters can lead to some insight about your FWS.

No apology needed - I knew those were questions that would take some time to ponder. They were intended to do that.

I think the things you're needing right now are legit. Have you been able to be very concrete with H and told him those things? If you have and he's just refusing to do those things, what then? Have you discussed how it impacts you? Are those things enough to be a line in the sand for you (and that's not a criticism - if it is, then it is)?

I also understand your reluctance to "rag" on him, I felt the very same way when I felt stuck like you do. J had made GREAT strides in so many areas, but still was lacking in some that I really needed.

I can tell you as a FWW myself as well, that with 100% certainty, my EA was my choice. It was my bad boundaries, my failure to keep EP's, my failure to communicate to J. It wasn't his fault. It was MINE. I had other options in how to respond to where my marriage was, and I took the most selfish and easiest option. Was H to blame for his side of the street? Yup. But I and I alone am to blame for the choice I made.

And (as you know), your H needs to come to this realization as well, and REALLY realize it with every fiber of his being. It's like Mark said to me - it's not a single choice - it's a series of choices - maybe even hundreds of them.

This makes sense, and the completion of R for my H is lifting what fog is hanging around.

You are good at this DNM, right now, I am not. If we were to have a talk now, I'd be better than I was a month ago, but not good yet. It's still a very sensitive topic.

Sticky noted, thanks.

DNM, some of the issues, like boundaries and EP's, are not up for POJA.
I remember reading about your talks with Jennifer on your thread. Good stuff.


Yes, a good reminder of my part and I need those reminders.

okay, got it. And you know what, this is where we were at a point last year. Things are clicking in my head, for the good, you've got me thinking.

I have a love/hate relationship with RH, the emotional side of it. I know that is something that I need to continue to work on.


I know exactly what you mean. Mark wrote something once about an EA or the EA part of an A is harder for a WS to understand the damage, since there was no sex involved.
To some people, an A is a back room, sex all the time event, they don't see the emotional betrayal side of it. How you view an A, I think affects how you make ammends. Think about it.

I'm happy that your R is going well!

That could be my goal, although I really don't see myself saying that when an EP is broke. Maybe in time when I'm more calm.

And you know what luri, I know that repentance can't be forced. This is my issue to deal with. Just frustrated, no not frustrated, sad is probably a better word.


I agree with you here. To be clear with regards to my H, he doesn't make me feel like I should be over it, or that I should be able to forgive him.
I like your views.

Yes, I have been able to be concrete in letting him know what it is that I need from him.
The rest b_s that you ask, for now is a waiting game. Yes, I know where my line in the sand is, that seems to be what makes this so difficult.

Have a good weekend everyone! It's May two four !!!!!

Not until after the weekend Vitt, but anyway, why does that date matter?

I thought you Canadians were on our side. Are you celebrating strange north American holidays now?

I don't know if this fits here, but one thing to me that is a sign of true repentance is the laying aside of impatience and pride. When I truly saw what I had done and how horrific it was without any qualifications....something in me knew that there was NO room for pride, for scorekeeping about how "good" I was doing, for impatience about how long this recovery stuff was going to take. My affair rendered me unqualified to make those judgments. So when I see people who start pushing the "how long," "when is my BS going to do/stop doing this?" "I'm doing everything right, but...." agenda....I question gut level repentance. I just do. And if I do, I KNOW a BS is going to question it. It just really isn't my job to decide how long it takes someone Else to grieve.

Okay, I just needed to vent that.

May 24th dictates the weekend that we celebrate Victoria Day.
The weekend needs to be the one prior to the last Monday of the month, or something like that.

Two four comes from grabbing a case of beer (24) and heading out for the weekend, a three day one.
It's an annual tradition to go camping, I've outgrown that now and wouldn't dare go near a campground now on this weekend.

Despite the rain, the campgrounds are generally sold out on this first long weekend of the summer.
It has always rained, as long as I can remember, more fun that way!
We would come home with mud from head to toe, my kids are the same way.

SC, I'm insulted that you would even consider that I would lean to the dark side.

shhhhh, don't tell them that!

Happy Victoria Day SC! (tomorrow)

There is not one remote chance my FWH and I would be together if he had not been exactly like you describe. After all the pain and horrible life he left me then to find out what he was doing all that while required that he be that way. I was lucky (at least I hope it proves out that way) that he saw the devastation as you did and came to the same conclusion. It threw him over the edge and forced the good hard look at himself that caused the breakdown of his entire former creepy being. It took him a while, had to clear the fog and get a number of 2x4's here but it happened in the first 4 months post D Day.

I think it may take some WS's a longer time to get to that point depending, of course, on their temperament and the circumstance but they do need to get there and they need to make themselves face up rapidly or face a greater chance of losing their spouse. In this circumstance I was lucky, I honor those of you who stick with this without that kind of remorse from your spouse. You have more guts and stamina than I would have had. I also think posting here, as hard as it was for him, helped immensely. He got so much feedback and it took some of the pressure off of me to tell him the things he needed to hear. I would say to anyone who is having this problem to make at least reading these forums a must. I demanded GM post, it was probably the best thing I did because it forced him to think more and got him into the sessions with SH and the MB weekend. Is that impossible to get them to at least read here? That might really help get them over the hump.

I just had to say ....



Very well said and I'm sure it has tons to do with your recovery progress.

My DW recently told me I need to "stop living in the past" and "let it go." It cut like a knife and reopened some old wounds. Like you said, there is no room for pride or impatience in R.

Want2Stay

Just checking on ya Vit....

Originally Posted by lurioosi2

I don't know if this fits here, but one thing to me that is a sign of true repentance is the laying aside of impatience and pride. When I truly saw what I had done and how horrific it was without any qualifications....something in me knew that there was NO room for pride, for scorekeeping about how "good" I was doing, for impatience about how long this recovery stuff was going to take. My affair rendered me unqualified to make those judgments. So when I see people who start pushing the "how long," "when is my BS going to do/stop doing this?" "I'm doing everything right, but...." agenda....I question gut level repentance. I just do. And if I do, I KNOW a BS is going to question it. It just really isn't my job to decide how long it takes someone Else to grieve.

Okay, I just needed to vent that.

WOW!!! This one is short, but it hits the nail on the head. Can someone enter this in the Notable Posts?

Just been catching up. Have a question about how your need for repentance may look to your H. I know that sounds a bit screwy and a bit off

Are you/ have you been slightly withdrawn because of it?

And may this contribute to the repentace/resentment cycle?

OR actually - that is what this is all about. or have I overthunk again?

Very good post.

I don't know if it's irony or tragedy, but the more the FWS pushes on this "how long" thing, the longer it seems to take.

Totally missed this post luri, sorry bout that cuz it looks like I dismissed it.

Agree with everyone else, this is spot on.
This could not have been written any better by a BS.

You just post whatever you want here, this an open thread! My questions that I had are answered, for now anyway.
It seems that as time goes on, as we pass through different phases of rebuilding, the questions change.

When a FWS writes their view of how a BS feels, like you did above, it validates that we are not asking for the moon,
that we are not crazy or selfish or seeking punishment from our betrayer.

I think in turn this helps BS's to stay strong in the goal of a great M, and to not tolerate anything less than what we feel
is necessary for our R from the A. We don't have to settle for mediocre, unless we choose to.

luri, aside from seeing the devastation in your M from the A, do you think that being a member here on the forum,
helped you to believe so strongly what you posted above?



broken soul, I'm good! Super, super busy right now, not much time for MB.
The patience that I thought I had, not so much anymore, haha. A plan has been laid out to my H,
and I expect results. While he does many things right, I want more right. The bar for myself is high, his needs to be too.
I don't want the average M, I want one where MB tools are used to the very best of our ability and strive to always get better
at using them. I want this with my present H.

ST, I think I understand your question, and some of where this thread has gone I think relates to that.
It's all so intertwined sometimes isn't it, for us over thinkers.
I know for myself, once I have figured out one aspect of why I feel the way I do, I can then figure out how to fix it. lol, make sense.

This forum has helped me so much....I am a quick fixer kind of person. And there is no quick fix when you bash your whole family. But I think H coming here and reading right in the beginning, even though he didn't stick around, helped too. I realize now that a lot of the "law" he laid down from the get go was straight MB. All the keylogger stuff, the passwords, militance about NC...I learned real quick that if I wanted to save this marriage, I had better not deviate. He wasn't mean about it, but when I did break NC, he just packed his bag, told me I had better not get out of bed and try to stop him, that no I DIDN'T love him or I wouldn't have done all this. Maybe this should go in the ambush thread!

Something in me knew from the moment of confession that every day he stuck around was really an act of mercy, that him forgiving me was not my concern. That doesn't make me some great person - I screwed up plenty. But I think the biggest thing for me was reading SAA. If a wayward can read SAA and NOT be broken....they need a whack in the head.

Totally agree DWG. Some take longer, with temperament and circumstances being a factor too.

Totally agree with all of this too. I think reading and posting here has more value than what we realize.
The bolded, mine, is a big one. We don't want that pressure, yet feedback is needed, in various forms.

I made posting on MB, at least in the first few weeks, a condition. I did see benefits to it. It did cause some conflict at home as well. However I still believe we would not have got thru the fog as fast or as well without it.

And for all the moaning and whining he did about MB, he now thinks its fabulous. Just wont post is all

So maybe posting on MB can speed up the repentance issue?

Or maybe its because for so long they had the OP ad friends of he A telling them whatever it was that helped them feel they were doing something ok, and coming here and having 20 odd people telling them u-huh, no way Jose` gives them pause for thought? Suddenly their surety of the rightness of the A isnt so sure.

Luri,

That post ROCKED!!!!! I love ya....

I know this might be a bit off topic, however, I would like to get your all's take on this....(sorry for the t/j Vit...though I think it is a bit related....)

All of us BS know that we aren't supposed to bring up the affair, after the details are all out. That by doing so is a LB of sorts and puts our Recovery in a bit of a hinderance.....however, how does can a BS be RH when they are dealing with triggers/thoughts/emotions yet knowing that by being RH comes with a price???

And this may sound REALLY stupid, but it has crossed my mind so many times, it drives me crazy....

Can someone explain to why/how two people involved in an affair can share with each other intimacies/stories/emotions/feelings about their spouses and it brings the affair partners CLOSER, yet when a BS asks for any such affair questions or brings it up period, it creates a distance and wedge between the married partners???.....(does that even make any sense????..... )

Not

so much to write and no time, good questions Not2fun, I know exactly what you are talking about.

back at some point.

Good question. I can't answer it myself. I have a very hard time of this and have recently (like yesterday and already failed) set one of my goals to stop it. She is so much in our lives, her court case that she tried to make GM's fault, her continual calling every 6 months or so, she now writes and comments to the paper about the political issues I am involved in (boy is it funny, this woman is either drunk when she posts or very very uneducated or both) it just seems like she is always there and even my house has triggers in it. I wish I could answer your question, it is so hard.

Not stupid at all. I would say it is relief and justification vs unpleasantness and pain.

I didn't start posting right after d-day, it was almost 4 months later, so I didn't get the full grasp of all this forum had to offer.
Had I known, reading here, at the very least would have been a prerequisite for returning home.
You were smart lil.

I'm thinking yeah, it certainly has a positive influence, and it's not just us BS's saying the same thing, it's also spouses who have been in their shoes.

We've had discussions about this over here in R, I can't point you to a specific thread, I just know that we have.
I think there is a difference between bringing the A up to just simply rehash old garbage and bringing up the A because their is unfinished business.
Triggers will be with us for some time, we can do our best to avoid them and distract ourselves, nonetheless, they still do happen.
Using RH, not brutal honestly to discuss how the triggers/thoughts/emotions make us feel/reasons behind them, to me is not paying the price, unless our spouse gets defensive.

I think that any talk of the A should fade over time, as the business of the A fades away, and as we heal from the initial wounds.
If the motive is to constantly remind the FWS of their action, that has to stop. If the motive is to continue moving forward in R, emotions should go on the table.
The next step then would be to figure out why the BS is feeling that way. To fix it, it has to be discussed with the FWS, since they are the ones who can help to fix it.
I know for myself, I can't bury something for very long without exploding, so I'd rather get it out on that table, fix it and get on to the next round.


I think when two AP talk to each other about their BS's, it's their own perceived victimess or victimism (no idea if that's a word) in their own M. Maybe they feel a bond cuz they
believe that they are the only ones that are so lonely and desperate for affuction. Twisted thinking. Their being victims is the bond that binds them. I think that is what happened with my H and OW anyway.

hmm, the second part of this question about creating distance ...... maybe this depends on the motive for bringing it up, RH vs brutal. Is what is being talked about done without lovebusting.
Actually, that would be the trick in the first question you asked too. If the A cannot be talked about in a rational, non lovebusting way, it shouldn't be discussed.
But then the question is how come it can't. Is it cuz the BS just can't control it due to wanting to hurt the FWS, or is it cuz the FWS is not repentant and simply wants
the whole mess swept under the rug.

Bingo. You should avoid bringing up questions about the affair that you can answer yourself by referencing the Three States of Marriage and Exclusive Needs-Meeting. You also don't want to ever use the affair as a weapon to get your way in an argument, because then it starts serving a useful purpose, and you're more likely to keep making Love Bank withdrawals as a result.

But sharing your feelings about what's happened? ABSOLUTELY. You can, should, and MUST share your feelings with your spouse so they know exactly what you're going through. But you must figure out a way to do so that isn't condemning, disrespectful, or angry.

That's hard.

That's a big part of what learning to live the MarriageBuilders way is about: being radically honest without Love-Busting.

So you're generalizing a bit too much when you say the MarriageBuilders way is to not bring up the affair. That's incorrect.

Once you're in recovery, you should avoid bringing up questions about the affair that you can answer yourself. You should avoid engaging in any Love Busters when discussing the affair. And because you recognize such discussions generally result in Love Bank withdrawals despite such precautions, you minimize discussion of the affair within reason. It's important not to delay Radical Honesty for a convenient time, but if you are besieged with questions, it may be useful to evaluate if you can hang onto them a day or two to see if you can answer them yourself.

And if you do so, be Radically Honest with your spouse about your personal struggle. Don't make them access the memory banks that contain their affair, but do deposit Love Units by your openness and honesty about your personal struggles with the fallout from their actions.

So you spend 6.9 of 7 days a week meeting one another's emotional needs, avoiding Love Busters, and building a great, big Love Bank balance. If you need to take 15 minutes a week -- painful as it might be -- to be honest about your struggles to your spouse, do it. Be Radical, not Brutal.

Very sage advice, DNM. Thanks for the reminder.

I agree with DNM. Being radically honest is indeed totally lovebank positive for me.

I really like to think that if J was triggering, or suddenly realised he had been internally battling with something A related that he would bring it up with me. I know that I would give him/repeat any truth and ask him what it still is that he needs from me.

However... if his discussion on the subject came up in form of AO or DJ that would indeed be LBing.

BUMP

Vittoria, I wanted to thank you for posting this as it has put into my words the disquiet going on in my head. It is only 5 months and 11 days since dday for me and we have barely scratched the surface of recovery. While my WH has apologized and I do see remorse in him, I have not seen any sort of repentance in him.

I am terrified that that will still be the case a year from now, or 2 years from now.

So thank you, for reminding me of a very important part of the healing process and that no matter how much I want my WH to come home, I don't have to rush it.

OK, didn't realize that this thread is 2 years old so thank you SunnyD for bumping

I thought it was very pertinent given all I've been reading lately!

My WW just ended the A 3 weeks ago.I guess she is still in withdrawal.She is beginning to show some remorse but she has no desire to recommit to our marriage.Is it normal to be remorseful but yet has no intention to rebuild the marriage?

X,

A wayward that is remorseful, WOULD be rebuilding their marriage.

Your wife is just feeling sorry for herself because the affair ended and placating you and anyone else, that causes her to feel guilty, by saying she's sorry, over and over again. That type of behavior is very far removed from actual remorse.

Have you read the book "Surviving An Affair"? It will teach you what YOU need to be doing to fight the remains of this affair and help put a nail in it's coffin before it ignites again.
I would also recommend you call the "MB Coaching Center". They are the fastest path to resore a marriage, if your really serious about it.

I am very serious about it but I dont think I could afford the coaching sessions yet.W said she is remorseful but has fallen out of love with me.She is no longer attracted to me and she sees me as a family.Makes sense?She wants a separation to see if she really wants me when I am not by her side.

X ... I posted to you on your thread. The issue is you are not understanding the nature of her addiction.

Do you believe adultery is addiction? If yes, then replace (OM, toxic friends, new OM, divorce) with crack ... because that is all her behavior is about.

She doesn't want you today because you don't give her those giddy, romanticized, brain chemicals those loser friends of hers and OM can give her.

She doesn't like you because you are making her choice of drug difficult to obtain ... hence you are an enemy to her HIGH.

She wants to separate because getting those intoxicating feelings is more important than anything else on the planet today, and she knows she cannot do it in your presence.

Stop making excuses for her and please understand the nature of her emotions. She is an addict!!!!

Kill the affair, Plan A your butt off, be manly, a leader, her rock and just maybe she may get HIGH off you.

The goal is to be the better drug ... right now you want her to look at you and start feeling those feelings again. That can only happen by a stellar Plan A and being the man she fell in love with.

There will be a time and place for her to get repentant and remorseful ... that is after this sordid adultery of hers is dead.

Kill it any way you can and then be her stud ... Stellar Plan A is all you should focus on at this moment.

Thanks PI.
I killed the A by exposing to OMW .Been 3 weeks already.W is defogging gradually but still a bit wayward from time to time.Her toxic friend called her and messed with her head and suddenly she is talking separation now.I agree 100% with you that she is an addict.I'm just worried that the A could be resurrected with further contact or when W feels weak and confused just like she is now. Isnt plan A only applies to active affair?

Here are some excellent radio clips with a WW and BH that have recovered and survived an Affair.
Radio Clip on Recovery with a WW and BH
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

NO it is when they are wayward. She is wayward, and you can plan A for a very long time with her. That is what Dr. Harley suggests. At least 6 months if you can.

Marking so I can find again

And a thank you to the poster who was reading it, which brought it to my attention

Jeez, I just realized I read and posted here a year ago. A year ago and I still wonder if I will ever see repentance.