Hi all � I�ve been a lurker on this forum for quite some time. I�ve read SAA and have been trying to apply the concepts that I�ve learned and have benefitted from the knowledge of the other posters on here and hoped someone might be able to help my husband and me.

I�m the FWW. I had an affair with an old HS boyfriend. We found each other through facebook. Contact started in January 2009 and turned the corner into EA territory in late March when we met for lunch. Went to PA in May 2009. My BH became suspicious in early August � we had a huge blow-up fight in late July, I mean it was ugly�I dared him to hit me to give me a reason to leave him. What a b*tch I was, since I was the one giving him the �get-out-of-marriage-free� card. Anyway BH became suspicious because of the large amounts of text messages OM and I were sending each other. He initially confronted with the texting, and I (of course) lied and said we were just friends. He began to investigate, and he�s good at it. He found old online chat sessions and emails and confronted me with it at the end of August 2009. I lied and said it had only been an EA, that nothing physical had happened. I emailed OM and said I did not want to have any other contact with him at all. He believed me and for the next 4 months, we proceeded with recovery based on my lies. I did not have any more contact with OM until the next bomb dropped. We were in counseling too and doing so well our therapist �graduated� us, she thought we were doing great and well on our way to recovery.

January 2010. He confronts me and I finally confess to PA. At first I tell him it was only one time. He packs a bag and leaves. He comes home the next day. I finally tell him that it was twice (which is the truth, but of course he doesn�t believe that anymore). He must have been contacting the OM because at this point the OM contacted me at work to ask me to get my BH to �leave him alone.� Had contact (sort of) with OM one more time later that spring, he had stupidly saved my BH�s email and sent a mass email about a kids� camp his business was having. I blasted OM with a nasty email in response and pretty much told him to stay under a rock and never even cross the city limits into our town, if he so much as breathed in our direction I would tell his wife everything � as far as I know, OM�s wife does not know, which I�m torn about after reading about exposure on this site)

We�d already signed up for a Love & Respect course at our church that began the next week or so � we decided to continue to go. We started seeing a Christian counselor (who we�re still going to now).

Seems like we�ve been trying everything under the sun. I could build a sad library of all the books I�ve read. The thing is, I have truly learned a lot about myself and about how marriage should be. I got excited by the Love & Respect series. Our M wasn�t perfect before � we had problems and we didn�t do a good job of loving OR respecting as husbands and wives should. That said, we would not be here today but for my decision to have an A. I don�t know what would have happened but if I had learned L&R before I made the decision to have an A I believe our whole marriage would have been different. I read The Five Love Languages. I believe we speak different love languages (the EN questionnaire seems to support this). I�ve done the Love Dare on him and I try to keep the principles of unconditional love going every day.

I have been real encouraged by this site and asked my BH if he�d consider completing the EN questionnaire, which he did a month or so ago. I told him it was very important to me that I meet his EN�s, not only b/c I knew his LB$ was in the red, but b/c as a wife I WANT to meet his EN�s. I was disappointed � no, make that crushed � by his responses. Basically for each of his needs, he said I didn�t do enough and when I did, it wasn�t the way he liked it. I felt like my heart had been torn out. I had to leave the house and go for a walk I was so upset. And I knew that I truly didn't have a right to be upset - he feels the way he feels because of what I did. I have since tried to encourage him to talk about what each of these needs mean to him, how he prefers to receive affection, etc. His top 5 were Honesty & Openness, Domestic Support, Financial Support, Family Commitment, and Admiration.

Yesterday ordered the HNHN 12-week home study course so I am hoping that will give me some help in trying to meet each of these needs. He�s absolutely devastated by what I�ve done and has a hard time even looking at me anymore. All I want is to rebuild our marriage � I know there�s no real way to make up for what I�ve done, all the lies and the betrayal, but I so want to try to make it up to him. At this point he is very discouraged and doesn�t believe that counseling is helping us at all � we talked some about this yesterday. He�s an amazing man and I love him so much�he doesn�t deserve what I did to him. I know there�s a lot of folks out there who have made it through this � what else do I need to be doing as a FWW to help him to heal?

You gave him a false recovery. Thinking that things were going well based on your lies about what really happened. I have been there and I can tell you that it is going to take MUCH longer for you to regain his trust. He believed you then, he is not going to believe your WORDS now. You will have to back it up with ACTIONS, consistently, for a long time. A very long time. Offer to take a polygraph for him, or better yet arrange to take one anyway, so that you can put to rest any doubt that you may still be withholding information about the A.

Have you come up with a list of Extraordinary Precautions to keep you from falling into another A or this one from rekindling?
Developed an Opposite Sex Protection Plan? There are posts for this, I will see if I can find it for you.

It is hard when you realize that you have not done a great job of meeting your spouse's EN's. At least now you know, so you can work on fixing it. Learning to do that is one of the actions that tells your BH that you are serious about fixing the M and the damamge you have caused.

OM's wife needs to know. She is living a lie in her marriage. She needs to be told so that she can protect herself. You do not do this, your husband should not do it either. No contact means no contact, for both of you, for life. Get a friend to do it.

Block OM's email, whether he sent an email or not should not matter, it should not even be possible for him to contact either of you. Actually forget blocking him, you and your husband both need new email accounts, change any phone numbers that OM has, change everything that would let OM have access to you or your husband.

I agree with Ash.

In addition, does your BH have full and total access to everything in your life? Your cell phone, all passwords, all accounts, etc? Have you been completely honest with all of his questions? Is there ANYTHING you haven't told him? Are you completely transparent with him in ALL aspects of your life?

Recovery for a BS takes about two years, but it varies for everyone. Like Ash mentioned, you've had a false recovery, so that re-starts the recovery clock.

I understand that your feelings were hurt when you found out you're not meeting your H's needs well. Look at it another way though - he's giving you and INCREDIBLE opportunity to do it right. This is a precious gift he's giving you - another chance at his heart. Listen to what he tells you and try not to look at it like criticism, but rather a map to his heart.

What kind of counseling? There are many posts on the boards about the (lack of) success of traditional MC. Are you aware that the Harley's (the family that developed this site) does telephone counseling?

Thanks so much for the advice - one thing I will work on is my EP list. We have talked about it and I've told him I'm willing to do anything that gives him the reassurance he needs. I've deleted my facebook account and he has passwords for everything else - all my voice mail passwords and email passwords are the same now so he can log into anything. He's got all the bank and credit card passwords and we try to do most of the banking together, so he's aware of all money that goes in and out of the accounts. He is able to access the cell phone bill online. I make contact with him frequently throughout the day (or at least I text and email and try to call...sometimes he does not respond) and I work close to home so a lot of days I go home for lunch now instead of going out. I've located at least one local polygraph provider online so that gives me a place to start there.

OM's email address has been blocked on the email account he knew for me. I don't know about DH's email.

I did a search on the site for opposite sex protection plan - Ash, if you find the forum before I do, would you please post a link? I almost unconsciously changed my behavior at work after this, I am not as open with anyone in the office anymore of either gender...I do work in a male-dominated field (criminal justice) and we do some traveling for the job, although I try to avoid it if possible. I don't go out to lunch solo with members of the opposite sex. There have been some situations since this (and before too) where I've had to ride in the company car with another male for work. He's met the people I work with most often (and those males in question), although I realize that doesn't make a difference as far as EP's go. I don't know how to change what I do for work to a great extent, although for starters I can turn in my work cell phone. Work itself was never the problem - the problem is that the OM and I were able to communicate while I was at work.

I used to drink - a lot. When the A was occurring, sometimes I'd drink a bottle of wine by myself in one night, sitting in front of the computer. I never suspected I could have a problem. I thought a drink was my way to unwind at the end of the day. Maybe if I'd kept to one glass and not a whole bottle! That's another issue I committed to changing. And I stopped cold turkey, have slipped twice since Aug 08.

The only thing I haven't told him is the gory details - meaning the actual physical experience with the OM. Most of the advice I get is no, he doesn't need the gory details. He knows when and where and that we didn't use protection (we've both been tested for STDs). He asks a lot of questions about why I did it and I feel like my answers are inadequate. I can't explain why because I can't justify it - I was stupid and I took my eyes off of God and our marriage. Nothing that DH did - no matter what the circumstances of our marriage - nothing justifies having an affair. The reasons I thought I had at the time are bull-hockey. I don't feel anything for the OM anymore other than occasional anger, and it's stupid to feel angry at him because it wasn't just his fault.

As far as telling the OM's wife - long after I stopped contact with the OM, DH became obsessed with finding out everything he could about him. Both our pastor and the counselor we see now have advised telling her. DH's aunt, who is also a counselor, advised not to. Somehow, in DH's digging he learned that the OMW is pregnant. DH said he didn't think it would be fair to her to tell her while she's pregnant, he didn't know what other things she might be dealing with and so on.

We've been going to a Christian counselor most recently as a couple. His advice is Biblically-based, but after DH and I talked yesterday I think I understand his frustration - while the counselor's goal is for us to love each other, we keep spending a lot of time on us as individuals - DH and forgiveness, me and feelings of unworthiness. The counselor we saw during the false recovery seemed to have more exercises for us to do, like telling each other what the other has done they appreciated and why, using active listening, etc, but even still there was that part where we looked at issues from our pasts/childhood. He started going back to her on an invididual basis after the PA came out. She did ask me to come talk to her on my own one day because, as she put it, DH was "stuck," and before she "led him down the garden path" towards reconciliation, she wanted to make sure that 1.) it was what I wanted and 2.) that I had finally been honest with him.

I've mentioned the Harley's telephone counseling to DH. He has been a little reluctant, I think because of cost, but I told him I was willing to pay any amount. And if you consider all we've paid to these other therapists the Harleys would probably be cheaper! Is their counseling only for couples or is it something I can do as an individual?

Hi wulfpack, welcome to Marriage Builders. You are in the right place.

In order to recover your marriage and in order for your H to regain trust, he deserves to have all of his questions answered completely and fully to his satisfaction. This is information about his life and it would be cruel to withhold it. You cannot possibly earn his trust if you have secrets with the OM to which he is not privy.

None of the people who have advised you to withhold facts from him is in a position to ascertain what he needs to recover. NONE of them. Only he is qualifed to make that determination.

Your H will have no peace until you rectify this withholding of the truth. The truth is the solution, not more deceit.


It would be unfair and cruel to NOT tell her. If your neighbors bookkeeper was embezzling his money, can you think of any possible excuse to not warn her?

It is even more imperative in the case of adultery because her health and financial security is at risk. She cannot protect herself from her husband if she does not know the truth.

Not telling her is the cruelest thing that can be done to her. She probably already suspects so telling her will help her deal with her marriage problems.

She desperately needs to know the truth so she will have a chance to save her marriage. She can't do that if no one will tell her she is being harmed behind her back.

wullf - are you spending Undivided Attention time with your husband? You need to be spending 20+ hours a week together meeting your 4 Intimate Emotional needs: Affection, Conversation, Sexual Fulfillment, and Recreational Compaionship.

As for telling gory details. YOU cannot be the judge of what is helpful to tell. Other people can't be the judge of this. Only your husband can. HE sets the limit on the amount of information he needs to recover. If truth has slowly dribbled out, it makes recovery last LONGER and is more painful.

If your husband asks questions you answer them honestly. ANY question.

I find it interesting that you almost seem to be at the beginning of recovery though NC was a year ago.

You need to:
Ensure that ALL your husband's questions are answered to his satisfaction - a poly is a good idea.
Meet ALL your husband's needs. I know it hurts to find out you have been doing it wrong all along. But it really is a gift that he's giving you a chance to do it right.
Read up on Love Busters - get the book Love Busters. If you thought the ENQ was tough - wait til you do the Love Busters Questionnaire. It's a sucker punch to the gut but it is NECESSARY. It is not enough to do things that BUILD love, you must ELIMINATE things that damage love.

As alcohol is a problem for you - stopping drinking is NOT enough. You need to get into a recovery program. You need AA, and a sponsor.

As for telling the OMs wife - she MUST know. Not only to ensure the affair never resumes (as you are committed to recovery, this should be reason enough for you) but also for the health and safety of her unborn child. If OM had an affair with you, he could have an affair with others. The health of that unborn child is at risk if it's father is bringing home STDs. The mother needs a full STD screening.

She WILL feel pain. It WILL be horrible, but that is a consequence of the affair, not of telling the truth.

Bottom line: Finish exposure, get the truth ALL out on the table, put in place EPs to ensure no re-occurrence of an affair, commit to a plan of rebuilding your marriage with MB (try to get your husband here so he can get help too).

I'll try to find a link on EPs for you.

ETA:Thread on EPs

WG,

Most of the advice I get is no, he doesn't need the gory details.

My wife said that too, so my feeling is that she is covering up a great deal more than might have actually happened, threesomes with OM girlfriend, many more orgasms than with me, bondage, bigger organ, perhaps things she would never and has never done with me etc.

Perhaps this is only my imagination and has no basis in fact, but this is how I think and your H might think.

The worst outcome is if your H does not want to know because
he does not care.

I would suggest you tell him everything and not let it come back on you sometime in the future.

OMW needs to know NOW! One of the other things killing your H is that OM went on with his life at no cost while your H resides in HELL.

God Bless
Gamma

OK you have already been given the EP link. I cant find the original post for the Opposite Sex Protection Plan so I just copied mine here. The idea is to make one similar to this that you and your H go over. You should discuss each group and make sure that you are both clear on what type of people go in each group and what the response should be to those people. The EP list covers a lot, to me this just an extra layer of protection. It's good to know the EP list says no friendships with the opposite sex, or no discussing things that are personal. This gives you a chance to go over and discuss with your spouse the smaller details. If an attractive man says hello do you answer or ignore him? Is it ok to talk about the weather with a male coworker or does that count as a friendship?

The way I did it was that if a boundary applies to one group then it also applies to all higher threat groups, that way I didnt have to retype the same thing for each group. If "No exchanging contact info" applies to group C then it also applies to groups A and B.

Opposite Sex Protection Plan

Group A- Serious threats
Includes- OW, OM, any and all past lovers, old girl/boyfriends even if no sex was involved in the relationship, any known strippers prostitues or similar occupations, people we know to be generally flirty or have bad boundaries
Response- NO CONTACT with OM and OW, for the others avoid contact if at all possible and if there must be contact keep it as brief as possible and tell your spouse about it immediately. If you find yourself thinking about dreaming about or fantasizing about someone like this discuss it with your spouse.
Group B-High Threats
Includes- Anyone that is "needy" or desiring help especially if they are having marital problems, anyone that you find physically attractive, anyone who seems to be flirting with you or desiring to be around you more than is necessary, childhood friends of the opposite sex, this also can include anyone in your spouses family that you find attractive, you must be honest both with your spouse and yourself as to who is a threat.
Response- do not help anyone of the opposite sex with marital problems or allow them to help you with yours without your spouse present, do not have friendships with people of the opposite sex. limit contact with these people to nothing more than is needed to be polite, do not discuss life, hobbies, interests or anything else with these people
Group C- Threats
Includes- Anyone that is old enough or still young enough to be sexually active.
Response- do not be alone with them, do not flirt with them or allow them to flirt with you, do not be overly friendly with them and remember that even an unattractive person can become attractive to you if you let them meet EN's. They should not be on your Facebook etc and they should not have your contact info (phone number, email address etc)
Group D- Low Threats
Includes- the elderly and people too young to be considered sexually mature
Response- Can be alone with them if they need assistance but try and have someone else present if possible to avoid accustations of abuse or molestation
Group E- No Threat
Includes- dead people and people that are known to be gay or blood relatives
Response- pretty much anything goes, they are safe

I'm trying. Sometimes he just doesn't seem to want to spend time with me. I can understand why. When we do spend time together, we seem to have a good time. I know I do! The past two weekends, we've gotten rid of the kids and been able to go out to dinner, we've shopped and imagined in the home improvement stores (lol!), we went on a bike ride and even played a board game together. DH was funny and sweet and I had so much fun with him, and I thought he was having fun too. And we had some pretty incredible SF mixed in there too. Then comes Sunday and it's like a switch flips in him. During the week UA time is hard, once in a while we meet for lunch but lately when I ask him he has an excuse not to. By the time I get home from work it's a whirlwind of dinner and getting the kids in bed and we end up sitting on the couch watching TV (if he seems receptive I try to cuddle). If we've been emailing during the day, it is usually about the A and the state of our M, and then I've got that on my mind so if we end up having conversation it always seems negative.

Gamma, I know DH's imagination runs wild. He's told me he doesn't want to know but he's told me some of the things he's imagined. He's got a heckuva lot more active imagination than things really were, I can tell you that. But whatever I tell him, he's not going to believe. I may end up working the polygraph examiner to death.

If he asks, you must share this with him in as much detail as he needs to know. If the two of you are following MarriageBuilders, the "why" questions will be easily answerable in the context of Love Bank balances, exclusive need-meeting, and lack of extraordinary precautions. Those are the kinds of questions that you should deflect with a simple kind of catch-all statement: "That happened because I was trying to hide the affair from you so I could have both you and him. It was selfish, and I'm sorry for my actions. Are there any details about what, when, or how things happened that you need?"

What your husband doesn't have -- but might need -- is the gory details. What your husband is asking -- but DOESN'T NEED -- is the answer to "why" you did it. The answer is simple: you had poor boundaries with members of the opposite sex, poor precautions against an affair, didn't allow your husband to be the exclusive person to meet your most important emotional needs.


That's the key message to keep hammering home when he asks why. After several more months, you may want to ask him to stop asking "why" things happened, letting him know that you're very sorry for what you did and everything you did was a natural consequence of conducting an affair, including the lies and sex. Let him know, however, that if he has any questions of fact -- who, when, what, where, how -- you'll answer in as much detail as you can.

What you want to do is start establishing good memories of your time with your husband, and phasing out the good memories of your lover.


THAT is the message to hammer home. You're both 50% responsible for the condition of the marriage prior to the affair. You, alone, as the wayward, are 100% responsible for the damage the affair did to the marriage once you started it. Own that to him. That kind of reassurance that it wasn't his fault goes a long way.


Don't ever believe that yourself. All it takes for you to be pulled back into the affair is for him to meet some important emotional need, and you're right back where you started. The thing is, you don't know where your Romantic Love Threshold is with this other man. You only know AFTER YOU HAVE CROSSED IT. Right now, with the OM, you're probably in Conflict, or very possibly in Withdrawal. The reality is, if he met a specific emotional need well enough long enough, you'd be willing to be back in bed with him in a heartbeat.

Changing your attitude to realize you absolutely, positively, 100% could have an affair with that man again if you allow him to meet any of your needs is the "survival attitude" you need to take from this point on. Everybody "feels nothing" until they "feel something"... and by then, it's too late. The feelings run away with you, the biology takes control, and your higher brain is left trying to rationalize and justify your impetuous actions after-the-fact.


That's the right thing to do, and a critical step toward recovery.


Never trust this person for marital recovery advice ever again. She does not know how to recover a marriage, period!



It's up to your BH, after all, but I'd caution in favor of exposure so OMW can protect their marriage from a future affair. And don't ever listen to BH's aunt for advice on marital recovery again!

Ok, y'all will need to start sitting down and SCHEDULING the UA time. Schedule in INK. It WILL be awkward at first, but it will get easier, I promise. After a while you will CRAVE your UA time.

UA time is a MUST. It is also lifelong - once your marriage is in a better place you can scale down to about 15+ hours a week, but this is an absolute MINIMUM.

I can tell you from experience that missing out on UA time can REALLY hurt. Even in a marriage with NO infidelity, it hurts. DH and I had family in this weekend, so our UA time was wiped out for only 3 DAYS! and we felt the difference, the distance between us.

Can you get your husband here? Can you guys read through the MB books together? Really you BOTH need to be on board here.

You can have a GREAT marriage if only you make the TIME for it.

I see you have 2 DDs, how old are they? What is their bed time? I know how wiped you can feel by the end of the day. But for us, we get DD in bed around 8:30. We shoot for a 10:30 bed time, so that is 2 hours every night. That's 14 hours. If you stay up late on weekends, or even do chores together, that add's to it. Sometimes we talk while we fold laundry, or flirt while doing dishes.

Sometimes we watch movies, but UA time is BEST if the TV is not involved. Board games, playing the Wii, snuggling and talking about the day, anything. For us we've scheduled game nights and reading nights where we read through a chapter out of a novel together.

UA is the KEY to your recovery.

Also, your husband's behavior made me think of people who are triggering. You say he tends to shut down at the end of the weekend, and your affair was largely conducted during work hours. It is possible that the workweek is triggering him.

Here is a GREAT thread about managing memories and triggers. You can HELP him overcome these triggers.

Like Vibrissa said, UA is the critical ingredient to restoring romantic love in your marriage. This program does not work without it.

wullffpack,

You should confess to the OM's wife. No more excuses on this.
1) Having another pair of eyes on him is strong insurance against resumption of the affair. Thus, it would be a major Extraordinary Protection for your HUSBAND. (And not even all that extraordinary.)

2) By depriving her of information about the lie that her husband has been living, you are denying her a chance to fix her marriage, or at least to decide whether she wants to live with a man who treats her so. Denying her this truth is morally indefensible on your part. To whom or what entity are you praying, that you believe would condone such a stance on your part?

3) Your "pact" with OM not to tell his wife is irrelevant as well as indefensible. Where does your loyalty lie? If it is with your husband & your marriage, then this ill-begotten pact of yours with OM means nothing.

I will read the rest of your thread & may have more thoughts. (Have to go to work now.) My affair started a few months after yours. We even share a D-day anniversary. (Nice, huh? Not.) Maybe you should be further along in recovery & in your relationship with your husband than you are.

Stick around. Read up. Ask questions. Get to work.

P.S. I second everything Doormat & Vibrissa have said to you.

thank you all for your replies - I'm getting ready for work and will read through everything when I get there - but first I needed to post a correction to my dates. I had in my head we were a year from d-day and we are, from d-day #1 - but we're less than a year from d-day#2. Stupid, stupid me. Ao recovery is probably more or less on target for us, time-wise....DH emailed this morning and said he started to read my posts and then thought that it wasn't right for him to do so, but not before he noticed my dates were wrong. So now he thinks I've lied about something else. I feel like I just continue to make mistakes when I am trying to do something to help!!! Ugh - will, post more when I get to work. I feel so stupid.

First I want to apologize if anyone felt like I was trying to be misleading by stating the dates incorrectly. I am not trying to mislead anyone, especially not DH. I'm still kicking myself after he started reading my posts and that was the one thing he noticed. He second-guesses everything I say and do, with good reason.

To be honest I second-guess myself. I feel like I am walking on eggshells, like I HAVE been walking on eggshells. I've handled so much of this badly, I feel. Earlier this year, back before I'd found this site, I remember one day we had taken the kids to the park. We weren't really speaking that day, just kind of coexisting, and I remember he snapped at one of the girls. I told him not to do that (and I am sure I said it disrespectfully) and that she was just being a kid. He told me to shut up. I snapped back that he can think whatever he wants about me, but I don't think it about myself and neither does God. I walked off ahead of him and he ran up behind me and threw his wedding ring into the lake. It was an ugly, ugly day. And the thing is, in the bad moments I DO think those things about myself (sl*t, wh*re, you name it). Is is just me, or is it harder to get over thinking that about yourself when recovery and your BS seems so stuck?

I implemented one EP this morning. I turned in my work cell phone. No, I don't expect him to cheer about it, but now I have only one cell phone that he has complete access to. He's already got passwords and things, and believe me he's good with technological stuff. He's recovered things on the computer and recovered texts off my old cell.

I know another EP is the obvious NC with OM. I understand what you're saying, DoNoMo, and NC ensures that the OM will never have the opportunity to even try to meet my ENs. I do not want anyone else to meet those critical ENs except DH. I always did...he admits he could have been a better husband, just as I know I could have been a better wife. We really did fail to meet each others' most important ENs...and like I learned in the Love & Respect series I bought into the "card and candy mafia" idea of romance. It's not a language that comes naturally to my DH. So when I felt like he was being unloving, I became disrespectful, he was unloving in response, I was disrespectful...on and on (that is why they call it the "crazy cycle"!) until I gave up and allowed myself to let someone else meet my ENs.

Vibrissa, you talked about DH "triggering." Definitely. He recovered so much information about the A (chat sessions, texts, you name it) that it creates so many triggers for him. Even words that I say, he says they are things I said to OM. I asked him last night about the workweek being a trigger. He said he didn't think it was that, since it wasn't only during the workweek - the OM and I would be online together pretty much any day of the week, including when DH was home. He said it may be that our first d-day was on a Sunday. It was after the girls and I got home from church. I still remember what shoes I was wearing that day, is that stupid? That details like that stand out to me, but things about the A don't? Believe me, I have worked on forgetting the memories of the A. When I have thoughts about it, it is that remorse and regret for what I did. Anger is in there too. Not at DH, but at me...and I get angry and frustrated now but it's with myself. We wouldn't be here if it wasn't for my A.

Anyway - triggering - DH said the worst for him is when we are intimate. That he can't stop thinking of images of me with the OM. I want him to know that I'm with him 100%, that I'm not with anyone else in my head, know what I mean? Instead of closing my eyes I look at him, sometimes what I feel for DH overwhelms me and I will start crying during SF. It's not just teh way I feel about him that makes me cry, it's how much he hurts. I do see it in his eyes when we're intimate. That's the only time he really looks at me.

UA - I agree it's important and more importantly I WANT UA with DH. I told him about how I felt like sometimes he didn't want UA with me and he agreed. He said it was too painful sometimes. That for him the thoughts of the A are always there. That's kinda what led us into how SF is a trigger for him.

OK I've been all over the map with this post - people keep coming in my office and I have to stop writing (what, they think I actually work here?) I used to love my job but now I resent that it takes me away from working on my M.

wulfpackgirl, a couple of things stand out in your post. I am not sure what you mean by "I bought into the card and candy mafia idea of romance" but the difference between Marriage Builders and other programs is that MB DOES result in a romantic relationship. It is not about peaceful co-existance or "good communication" but about heart pounding romantic marriage. That is the end result of this program. [yes, it does work]

Here is how Dr Harley describes it:

Secondly, your recovery will not be complete unless you make amends to your other victim, the OM's wife. Amends in this case would come in the form of making sure she is told the truth about the affair. This woman has been exposed to STDs and is being harmed behind her back. One cannot claim to have remorse or be recovered and not make amends to her victim. I would suggest that your husband be the one to call her up and give her all the facts. If he doesn't want to do it, I would find another way. But this is your moral obligation and it is a big part of recovery.

Melody, the "card and candy mafia" thing was something that came out in the Love & Respect series we went through. That I went into marriage expecting it to be like a Hallmark card. I expected DH to be a mind reader - he loves me, he should know what I want. I think learning about the different ways in which spouses show each other love helped me to understand that love doesn't have to be all hearts and flowers. It doesn't take hearts and flowers to be romantic. That to DH, while he might have thought that kind of stuff was nice, I wasn't really showing him love the way he needed - not meeting his emotional needs. There's so much I don't know...our HNHN course came in the mail today and I'm excited about that, I am ready to learn! I hope DH will want to get started this week. Although he has not communicated with me at all today since he sent me the email this morning telling me I had the dates wrong in my post and wondering if I set it up that way on purpose. I still feel pretty stupid about that.

I talked to him last night about telling the OM's wife and he didn't have much to say. I want it to be his choice. I can find someone other than he or I to do it. I just want our recovery to go forward and if this is what we need then so be it.

What about spouses reading each other's posts - good idea or bad idea? I told him I was fine with it, gave him my screen name and encouraged him to join up also. I think he needs to talk to someone who has been through this and come out the other side and I think he can find that here. There's a big part of him that doesn't see us being able to get through this.

It's ok to read each other's posts - kind of hard not to, but if both partners are here, working on recovery, it is standard to advise them to stay off posting on one another's threads. Your thread is to help YOU, his thread would be to help HIM. Different advice applies to either of you. Posting on one another's thread takes the focus from the advice from the individual.

Just standard procedure around here.

Your husband SHOULD post - there is a lot of valuable help available to him here.

Can he come here and talk to us? We can help him through this. I think he should read your thread. That will help him understand your mindset.

WPG,

You might want to read some of the BH threads to get some insight into what is going through his mind, and perhaps anticipate some of his questions he wants to know but does not ask. The WW threads really helped me when I first read here.

You wrote.

I snapped back that......but I don't think it about myself and neither does God.

My wife feels that way too that since she has confessed to God she has no need to do so to me, thinks blanket statements like "things we have done wrong to each other" during prayer are going to suffice, kinda galling the religious justifications.

I DO think those things about myself (sl*t, wh*re, you name it).

Partly that is why I feel OMW needs to be told, if you are those words then isn't he? I feel it grossly unfair that the OM walks away from the accident unscratched.

Yes your H should read your thread, be prepared for him not to get it however. My W was very happy with the Marriage builder changes in my, but when I showed her this website she could care less.

God Bless
Gamma

OM�s wife does not know, which I�m torn about after reading about exposure on this site

WPG-

Your story is VERY similar to mine except I was the one who discovered the A between my WH and his "old friend" from HS on Facebook. I found all of the saved chats and emails. And yes....I was pregnant 4 days away from delivering our 3rd son.

At first I sent the OW a message on FB telling her I knew, but I didn't expose to her H or anyone else. I mistakenly thought I could save him the pain I was feeling. This allowed the A to continue for 6 more weeks. When I finally did expose to him he Thanked me over and over again for coming to him. The one thing he did tell me later is that he wished I had come to him first instead of his WW.

I later found out about 2 other ONS my WH had. I had NO idea about any of these. I wish the OW had come to me back then and told me the truth. I can't begin to explain to you what that level of deception does to a person. For 10 years I was lied to, for 10 years I thought we "had it all", for 10 years my WH lead a double life. For 10 years he left me vunerable to STD's (and yes we had 3 children in 10 years).

The wife has a right to know. You owe it to her to tell her the truth. That way she can make the decision (with her eyes open) whether or not she stays in that marriage. If you keep this from her you are helping her WH to have another A with whomever comes along.

My wife is one of the most faithful Christian women I know, but I think if I'd have tried to invoke God as my character witness, she'd have thrown ME into a lake. I trust that now you have a better appreciation for how presumptuous that must've sounded in your husband's ears, for you to be telling your H about what God thinks about such & such.

However, beating yourself up is not a shortcut. I've tried that. Some days, I still try. But the reason it gets you nowhere is because it's self-focused. There's a difference between proper humility (which is very important) and beating yourself up. I think the guilt is always going to be there... 20 months past D-Day for me, no false recovery to delay or hinder us, and yet it hasn't gone away... but one key for me is to leverage the guilt, by letting it motivate me to be better toward my wife, letting it motivate me to cut her more slack on whatever's going on on a given day.

I'd counsel patience on your part. Less than 9 months from your last D-day & with a history of false recovery, you can expect marital recovery to take longer.

You say your H sometimes is reluctant for UA time. Couple of thoughts regarding that:

1) Yes, schedule it. Plan your UA time. This helps to make you less prone to bump it from your schedule when other activities or priorities crowd in. UA time was probably THE single biggest thing my wife & I did after my A that has helped us reconnect better than we were before.

2) Re: affair-talk dominating your UA time, you shouldn't let this happen. Your UA time should include a predominance of enjoyable communication that helps you two to re-bond. It is true that there'll be times when your H, or even you, will feel a need to talk about aspects of the affair -- what led to it, what happened, how you felt, whatever. And yes, he needs you to be willing to answer what he asks. Anything. But you should also schedule the affair talk in advance. That way, neither of you will be blindsided, and you'll have realistic expectations for your UA time. If you each know in advance that you'll be talking tough topics, then there's less chance that one of you will be disappointed when the conversation heads in that direction -- because it's already on the agenda.

Blindsided - that's funny (well, not funny "ha-ha") as that is how I always seem to feel after we spend time together and I find out he's been miserable and not really enjoying it. I'll feel fairly positive and then we end up in our counselor's office and everything is so negative. I get discouraged and I try so hard not to show it. I've told DH I don't like to let him know when I get discouraged or frustrated because I am afraid it will be contagious...he's told me that the things I am doing are the only reason he's still here. I know that's a positive, so I try to focus on that.

Believe me, I know that comment was a very presumptuous and sanctimonious thing to say. Especially when the truth is I doubt how anyone, let alone God, feels about me. Yeah, I admit that it is easy to beat myself up but I see the point that it is self-focused. I can't focus on being a better wife when I feel like dirt, because when I get like that I don't want to do anything. But again, same as above, I don't like for DH to see me get negative, I feel like I need to be the positive one. I feel like if he thinks I am giving up, it will be easier for him to give up - does that make sense? And the last thing I want to do is to give up on him.

So I cracked open the HNHN course today and started looking at the material. My biggest fear is that he won't want to do it, he won't even want to start with scheduling the UA time. He's going out of town next week for work and I'm not looking forward to him being gone. We have been apart for his work or my work since January but every time has been extremely difficult. When I've been travelling, he ignores me, and when he is travelling it seems like he focuses on my betrayal, maybe because without any other distractions it's so easy for him to do.

So I know next week there's virtually no chance of us having UA time. He went to bed early tonight, I know he's tired but I can't help feeling disappointed...I watch him with the girls and see how much he loves them. He's just wonderful to watch with them! I've said in counseling that I was actually jealous of my own kids. And I feel like an awful mother for thinking that. My A devastated him so much that it almost destroyed his affection for them. I'm grateful that at least whatever happens between the two of us, he's trying to be the loving father he always has been.

Since we really have not talked today, I haven't gotten to talk to him about exposure to OMW or what to do about counseling, I did mention in passing reading the thread again but refraining from posting on each other's threads, should he choose to join the community. DH did have his individual counseling session yesterday but I don't feel right really asking him about it, beyond if it went well or if it was helpful. We don't have a couple's session this week since he's out of town. I have missed talking to him today. Of course conversation is one of my big EN's!

It's going to take time. He's been twice-bitten, and the wariness will take a long time to dampen down.

Yes, perhaps the positive things you're doing are the only reason he's still there. So keep doing them! Don't expect an immediate payoff or breakthrough improvement. It will come. Gradually. If you don't quit. Keep in mind, he could've sicked a lawyer on you long ago. But he hasn't.

Yeah, trips are hard. I was sent overseas for a week 3 weeks after d-day. It sucked. But I wore out my Blackberry with my wife. Even if he seems to be in "ignoring you" mode, let him know he's on your mind. That's what you can do.

He needs to feel your steadfastness, and by definition, that takes a lot of time, when you've backed yourself into a corner where your word's no good & the only currency you've got left to spend is your actions.

Curious: Is your MC working through any of the Harley books with you, or is the MC working from her own program? Your sessions shouldn't be just "dump" sessions where you air out dissatisfactions. There has to be a forward focus on positive things you can do to heal & meet needs. Just asking...

GloveOil, no, our counselor is not working through the Harley books with us. Honestly, I felt like our old counselor gave us more positive suggestions of things to do, but that was during our false recovery so I think he's wary of things like that. DH sees her on an individual basis now and I'm not sure if she's heard of the Harley books, but DH did say she said we needed to continue spending that UA time together. I've read SAA so far, DH has not, and just got HNHN so have just begun looking through that. I don't feel like we're just "dumping" during our couples counseling but I'm starting to think we're not getting any guidance on working on building the love between us. The counselor talks mostly about God's love for us and the concept of forgiveness, which is great stuff but I sometimes think he's not giving concrete steps on moving in the direction of reconciliation and restoration of our love. I was raised in a Christian home and I know Biblical teaching and doctrine, but knowing how God loves us and that He forgives us our sins is not flipping a magic switch for either of us, does that make sense? And it's certainly not like I've been the best Christian my whole life. I think he'd agree with the Harley concepts but just don't know how familiar he is with them. It will definitely be something to bring up at the next session before we make any kind of decisions on where to go from here.

We've been able to spend quite a bit of time together this weekend but I can tell that him leaving tomorrow is on both our minds today. The girls and I went shopping this afternoon and put together a "goodie bag" of stuff for him to take on his trip, a couple magazines and snacks and wrote him notes, we cleaned out the car for him and gassed it up so he doesn't have to worry about that. I am planning to get the kids to bed early tonight so he and I can have some time together. This is going to be such a long week...I miss him already.

WPG, I was & am a Christian man. But while I was supposed to be behaving like one all along, faith didn't stop me from having an affair, even with a self-professed Christian woman who was in my own church, no less. It's not that the faith is wrong, but when all we're focused on is ourselves, we've already fallen away from it.

When I was in an emotional affair, and was far enough in that I was aware what was going on, I went through the motions of praying for deliverance from temptation. I even prayed with the OW for her marriage (after she had been dishing to me on how things weren't going well at home -- which was none of my friggin' business). But she wanted me to know, and I didn't feel right about it, but I listened anyway. Selfishly. Because it felt good to be someone's sympathetic ear. An ego boost. And yeah, I could've gone home & read "Song of Solomon," or the Ten Commandments, or whatever, and maybe that would've worked or maybe not, for the purpose of getting my head straight, but the point is, I didn't, because I'd fallen away in a crucial way. I felt entitled to make my own rules.

The faith was no magic shield against having an affair. And it's not necessarily a magic roadmap to rebuilding a relationship. In my view, God doesn't give us progress, He challenges us to it. You're right, He doesn't flip a magic switch. Sometimes, though, He will give us certain tools, by which we and our spouses can discover or build the switch for ourselves. That's what the EN questionnaires, the concepts of meeting needs and avoiding love-busters, and the Harley "4 rules" of Protection, Care, Honesty, and Time have brought to the table for us: they've been very effective tools. Diving into that stuff even if you or your spouse are skeptical about whether it can work... well, that's not reciting some words of Scripture as if they were some hocus-pocus, pagan "magic spell". Diving into that stuff is faith in action. Your faith tells you what the goal is (a loving marriage), but you have to work to get there, individually & as a couple.

Good stuff, WPG.

Re: beating yourself up: Today in church, the pastor reminded us of a quote attributed to C.S. Lewis: "Humility is not thinking less of yourself but thinking of yourself less."
Easy to say. Sometimes easy to do, for a day. Harder to live. But keep it up, patiently.

Great stuff...I am going to add that to the mini-wall of quotes I have in my office. That's one to focus on every day.

We did not have a good parting today. DH just left. He told me it would be better if we didn't communicate this week. He doesn't want to be reminded of the last time he went up there for work, which was back last year while the A was going on, and I was chatting with the OM online at night while he was gone. DH didn't know the A was going on then and he was hurt I didn't wait up for him the night he came home, I'd gone to bed after a chat session with OM. DH wouldn't kiss me or tell me goodbye when he left today, just stood there while I had my arms around him with his face turned away from me. I don't know what to do when he gets like this. I know I can email and text him like crazy this week but I also know he'll ignore everything I send.

I do believe that God gives us tools and it is up to us to use them. I don't think anything I've learned since the A was an accident. I believe God has given me what I need to know to be a better wife. I guess I feel like DH doesn't see it that way or that he even wants to use the tools we've been given. I know I can't make that decision for him. And maybe I don't deserve a chance to be his wife. It's all I want, though. I'm trying to show him that every day and right now I feel like I am failing.

Email him anyway.

Don't worry about whether he sends you responses. That would be about YOU.

It needs to be about HIM right now. Your marriage can't recover any faster than he recovers. His pride is wounded. Grievously. Maybe too grievously to feel secure in writing back right now.

No matter. You keep letting him know (via your actions) that you're laying your pride down. Let him know, every day he's gone, that he's on your mind.

And be there at the airport when he comes home, no matter if it's 3a.m.

lol if he was flying, I'd be at the gate with a huge grin on my face and waving a big sign! He's driving though (8 hours, ugh), but believe me, I will be here waiting for him.

I know it should get easier not expecting those responses - the whole idea behind loving someone unconditionally is that you love them regardless. And I do - I love to love him, to do little things for him "just because". It's just hard to make that selfish voice shut up when you don't get any acknowledgement. My focusing on "me me me" was part of what got us into this mess to begin with. But when I'm honest, I'd rather spend energy loving him than beating myself up. Loving him is much more satisfying. Just wish he was here to love instead of heading 8 hours away.

DH has been gone now since yesterday and I still haven't heard from him. I don't even know if he made it safely to his destination, although I guess if anything had happened someone would have called me. I've texted and emailed, and right now just feeling pretty darn miserable without him.

I had a gift basket sent to his hotel room (I am afraid he'll think I want to make him fat, since I'd already packed a bag of snacks for the trip! But thought flowers would be kinda silly in a hotel room cause he couldn't bring them home). I took care of some financial stuff that needed doing (had to call about a bill, car title, and did some investigating on switching car insurance providers) - not terribly exciting stuff but since financial support ranks up there with his top ENs and he's taken over the lion's share of our banking and paying bills I told him I'd take care of it this week. So I emailed him the info I found today.

I don't know what else to do while he's gone and not communicating with me. I can't focus on anything. I guess I'm not really looking for advice so much as I needed an outlet. If I talk to anyone outside of the MB community, they would tell me to just leave him alone, if that is what he wants. I know nobody here would tell me to do that, or advise me to give up on him.

I don't know...sometimes I think maybe I appear desperate to him. Is there a point at which I should give him space? Is that what he really wants, as a BS, to be left alone this week? I second-guess everything these days.

Did the two of you have a fight or something before he left? I think most BS would be nervous about being away from a WS and check in often to see what was going on at home. This seems off somehow to me.

No - no fight. We'd actually spent a lot of good time together over the weekend. I left work early Friday and we had some time alone before we went to p/u the kids from school, then took the kids and dropped them with his mom, went to the grocery store and cooked dinner together, bummed around Saturday and then went to get the kids Sat. evening. Church on Sunday and he cooked lunch for us. He just shut down Monday after breakfast and that was when he said he thought it would be best if we didn't communicate this week, that he was having memories of the last time he went up there for work which was during my A. I don't understand it either. I thought maybe he'd call home tonight to talk to the girls, since I wouldn't be home due to work and he wouldn't have to talk to me if he didn't want to, but my folks were here with the kids and said he didn't call. Our little one's b-day is Thursday and I don't think we'll hear from him then either.

Don't go borrowing Thursday's troubles for Tuesday...
and for today, stick to Wednesday's worries.

I know...Matthew 6:34. I am a worrier, big time...I try not to, but sometimes my mind goes down one track and I can't get my mind off of it.

I guess the biggest things that go through my mind when it hits that track are since he's not communicating with me at all, I assume he doesn't miss me. Then I wonder if he's happy not to deal with me this week. I wonder if he's doing it purposely because he knows that it hurts me. Then I wonder if he hates me. Which then leads me to more unproductive beating up on myself.

And truthfully I'm also angry at him for going radio silent this week, not just ignoring me but the kids too. But then I feel guilty for being angry at him, because I feel like I no longer have the right to be angry at him. How can I be angry at him, when this whole situation is because of what I did?

This is just not a good week.

WG,

And truthfully I'm also angry at him for going radio silent this week, not just ignoring me but the kids too.

Perhaps he is wondering if they are his, since he now doubts every memory he has with you, he might also doubt his parentage, you might want to clear this up if he gives you the chance. As they say Mammas' baby Pappas' maybe.

My son is now in college and I have the biological sample, but I tremble about sending it in for DNA testing.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma - this is your worry. This is YOUR obsession. Don't put your issues on her BH who you don't even know!

2X4s are one thing on this forum...but don't go stirring the mud up in someone elses pond!

That was neither a 2x4 or helpful advice
------------------------
Hun - Your BH has a multitude of reason he might have gone dark. I dont know him. It is a JD to assume and guess. Let him be. Your DD will have other birthdays. Give him space and time to breath. No matter what happens you will be okay.

Your hurting because of what you did. You are questioning who you are. You are scared by your actions, by whats happening to your family etc. Dont go borrowing other peoples issues, you have enough of your own.

I am a FWW. My H has yet to forgive me. Its complicated. But through It all I have become a better mother. I have found strength i never knew i had. I relied on my BH for everything really...now I have to manage on my own and I found out I can and will. You can and will be okay. Restored marriage (my fingers to gods ears) or not. you will be okay. Breath

When he doesn't call - breath
when he doesn't come home when you expect - breath

Just focus on being the best mom possible and give him space.
Space to return to you
space to leave
space to do what he needs.

Seek to do loving things without a regard to if they are returned...love him as the father of your children for loves sake...even if he doesn't give much back now. Love the children. Everything you do, do for love. And let the rest....breath


When nothing else is in your control - breath

SR,

Gamma - this is your worry. This is YOUR obsession. Don't put your issues on her BH who you don't even know!

And you know her BH? You have a male perspective? I can tell you that men will brood for years on an issue never saying a word, while the women will just move on not wanting to open a wound which they feel uncomfortable about looking at.

God Bless
Gamma

no - gamma - not a man
dont know her BH.
I just think..she has a heavy burden and we dont need to levy more worry on her shoulders with out proof. Until her H says this is his issue. Its a flat out DJ...i have been told over and over again on my thread not to put my ideas and thoughts out there as my BH. Not to assume what he is feeling. Well Its a DJ for us to assume we know what her BH is thinking or doing. I mean the things a BH or BW is worring or thinking about is as countless as the stars...just...if your here to help gamma...dont add to her burden.

If she comes to us and says - my BH thinks our DD isnt his what should I do...THEN offer advice. But...until then...dont add to her load without proof that it is HERS to carry.

I know as a FWW, every unhappy thought, action, deed... Anything that goes wrong in my BHs life...i worry rests on my shoulders...trust me...you dont need to add more. The woman has enough to carry.

Okay, granted I have not read this entire thread, but Gamma, why on earth would you think her H is thinking the kids may not be his? Their kids are 6 and 8 and her A happened in 2009. I seriously doubt that is what is bothering her H. Not every A involves an OC. Projecting your own issues onto someone else is rarely helpful.

Writer1,

Because she said her H is distant with her children too, and she wonders why that is so. Now from her perspective she is absolutely sure this is the only affair she has had and is certain who is the father, but is that BHs' perspective?

God Bless
Gamma

Reading back over the last page or so of threads, it sounds to me as though her BH is being triggered by having to go out of town again, since last year when he was away was when the A was going on. The silence and pulling away is his way of dealing with these triggers. He seems to be going into self-protection mode, perhaps because he's afraid that something else will happen with the OM while he's away. I don't see anything in her posts to indicate that her BH may be questioning the paternity of his children.

OK, yeah, my first thought was ouch! But I thought on this for a while. It is a fair point. I lied to him during the A and during our FR. He doesn't believe he has the whole story. And the night when the PA first came out, he did in fact tell me he doubted he fathered the girls. He's since said that he didn't mean that, that he said it in anger, as he said and did a lot of things in anger that night. But no, I don't know how his mind works. I'm trying to learn, so I can meet his EN's and be the best wife I can be, because that is what I want for us - I want an amazing marriage with him as my husband.

If he comes to me and says that the girls' parentage is something he doubts, we can gladly take a DNA test. I have no doubt the girls are his. I had one affair. That one was more than enough to detonate a nuclear bomb in our lives.

Sister, thank you for your kind words. I had actually started reading your HUGE thread today before you'd responded but hadn't made it all the way through yet.

I need to try harder to focus on the girls. I don't feel like I am the best mom I can be and a lot of times I doubt my ability to be a good mother. The ages they are, they pick up on everything - when things seem good between me and DH, they are just flying, but when things are bad...they definitely notice. I spent some time with my family tonight - my parents, my grandma, my brother, and the girls. As my mother reminds me not only do I have the girls but I have all of them and they need me too. It's funny, I - and they - always thought I was the one who had my head screwed on straight, that no one had to worry about. My brother was always the family screw-up. He's been battling a drug addiction for the past few years, had major financial difficulties, married young with an even younger wife (XW now). I proved to them, and to DH, that anyone can have a hole in their character. A hole I have been working to repair.

I haven't contacted DH since I sent him an email this afternoon letting him know I'd be at my folks' house tonight. writer1, self-protection is probably a good guess as to what's going on. He may also be thinking in the back of his mind that this would be an opportunity for me to see the OM if the A was still going on. And me thinking that may be what he's thinking, well, that's why I've tried to make contact with him so often.

On a good note, I got to see DD#2 have her first guitar lesson this evening. The glow on her face when she would play a note was simply amazing.

Can anybody point me in the direction of some resources that talk about the BS feeling ambivalent? I read in another post yesterday about ambivalence setting in in the BS at around the 6-8 month mark. I'm wondering if DH is at that point now and that is why he has not contacted me all week while out of town. Would ambivalence be pretty similar to the withdrawal state of marriage? Would you deal with a BS's ambivalence/withdrawal the same, or try something different?

I continued to contact him this week, although after Wed. afternoon I dialed down on frequency. Dialed back the intensity. Tried to keep things upbeat. Texted him this morning saying I couldn't wait to see him tonight, to drive safe and that I love him. I'm trying so hard not to worry (and I am trying to breathe!) but worried nonetheless...wondering what will he be like when he gets home.

Are we really in recovery? I posted here assuming that since the A was over and we were trying to stay together that it meant recovery...but after reading some of the other posts yesterday (esp. DoNoMo's post) I am beginning to think we are not even really classified as being "in recovery" yet. I don't even know if that made sense. Just my mind is all over the map today.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5061_qa.html



That's when the "hysterical bonding" has slowed down, usually. And when a man's needs -- particularly sexual fulfillment and recreational companionship -- aren't being filled to overflowing, then the Love Busters have more of an impact and lead the betrayed spouse into Conflict or Withdrawal.

I'm at one year, and just yesterday I found myself wondering why I bother anymore. It's just files playing back in my head, and Love Units being withdrawn without my spouse's knowledge. That's why Radical Honesty is so important... if I weren't to tell my FWW that I was having these thoughts and having trouble diverting them into something else, she would have no idea why despite her efforts I'm suddenly in Conflict rather than Intimacy.


The hurt runs very deep, and this takes time. And in particular, it takes a very deep internal conversion to meeting his needs and refraining from all Love Busters. Pull the weight of recovery as long as you can. And when you can't anymore, let him know that, too, that you're running out of energy and need your needs met, too. But typically he'll start meeting them naturally when you draw him into Intimacy with you.

Remember always that most of what you're experiencing can be explained by understanding Love Busters, Exclusive Need-Meeting, Undivided Attention, Contrast Effect, and the Three States of Marriage. If your husband has decided to have a revenge affair, or is indulging in pornography, both of these create massive Contrast Effect that withdraw Love Units from your account in his heart without you doing anything!


Intimacy: Your partner's needs are more important to you than your own. You'll typically do everything you can to meet them.

Conflict: Your needs are more important to you than your partner's. You'll typically be willing to express those needs -- even as criticism -- and give your partner the opportunity to fill them.

Withdrawal: You've given up on having your partner meet your needs, and do your best to avoid them.

It looks like he's in Withdrawal right now. To draw him back to Intimacy, first you have to draw him into Conflict where he's willing to let his Taker express itself. It's a painful journey, but necessary.


Be sure you're supportive, not needy.


You're mid-transition into recovery if you're still suffering withdrawal symptoms from the other man. If you're past the withdrawal symptoms ON YOUR PART AS THE BETRAYER (anger, anxiety, and depression), then you are in recovery, but just experiencing the rocky ups-and-downs that are part of going through the process to save your marriage.

You still may not save it. The moment you made the decision to let another man fill your emotional needs, you just gave your marriage a worse-than-fifty-percent chance of survival. But it's worth the effort, I think.

Thank you, DoNoMo, for your insightful reply and the link.


I am remorseful. Every second of every day, it seems. I am taking responsibility for what I've done both in the A itself but also for the condition of our marriage pre-A. I know BOTH of us could have done a better job at meeting each other's needs pre-A. Before and during the A, I laid blame completely on DH for not meeting my needs. I was the selfish one. Failure to effectively communicate my needs was the primary reason for them not being met. And failure to understand his needs, that they were different than mine, was the primary reason his needs weren't being met.


It's hard to meet the need for SF (which incidentally is not one of DH's top five - or mine, interestingly enough. It's important, but for me it is an expression of affection) Hard to meet when physically DH does not respond to me. He will be close to me without pushing me away, but will not move to touch or kiss. He will sit like stone. It wasn't like this during "hysterical bonding" - which seemed to happen during the false recovery and hasn't happened since. Meeting recreational companionship is hard too when he doesn't want to do anything with me. We go out to dinner or shop. That's about it. I've tried suggesting all sorts of things. We did go on a bike ride together but that was a few weeks ago. He simply doesn't seem to want to do anything.


I sent DH the link on memories/files. I've directed him to Mark's Managing Memories thread. He sometimes tells me when he is having thoughts, sometimes I can just tell. But he doesn't open up to me about them. But I think you hit the nail on the head, that seems to pretty much sum up why the things I have been doing to try and meet EN's are not making an impact. He's stuck on these bad files.


I am trying. Some days I feel like it's killing me. And I know I am not meeting his needs "right." We speak different love languages - his is acts of service while mine is words of affirmation & physical touch. It's a shame we didn't learn this years ago.

I was completely shocked and suprised that he had my piano tuned while he was gone. I haven't played in years, basically my folks wanted to get rid of it so when we got a bigger house we "inherited" it. Since DD #2 has started with the guitar, I have been talking about how I kind of regretted not playing anymore. He had my Dad come over while I was at work Thursday to meet the piano tuner. I burst into tears. So every once in a while he does things like this and it just floors me.



Withdrawal...I think every once in a while, he pops out of it. I need to figure out what it is that helps him to pop out of it. What have I done to meet a need that he appreciates, maybe? I feel like I am stabbing around in the dark with needs-meeting. I know the needs, but guess I am not knowing the right things to do to meet them. I know what I'd like him to do for me but just like the love languages, giving him what I want ain't working...I'm going to finish HNHN on my own. I'm only a couple chapters into it - I was hoping that when he got back we could start the course and he could catch up in the reading. I don't even feel like bringing the HNHN course up to him now. I think I'll just do the course on my own. Maybe he will join in if he sees me working on it. I don't know.


I think I screwed up at the beginning of the week and I was a little too needy. I switched up to just short messages about what was going on, what my daily schedule was, what the kids were doing. Info on some financial stuff I found out. A supportive quote or article. I don't know whether any of it was good/bad/indifferent.

I had stopped at the store on my way home from work yesterday and bought fresh flowers and some of his fave cookies, I was going to have them waiting for him when he got home. Was suprised he was already home when I got home from work. He has not had a lot to say to me. We did watch a movie together and snuggled on the couch - or more correctly, he "let me" be close to him without pulling away, didn't put his arm around me or anything. Even telling me about the piano, which was incredibly sweet, he kind of came in the office where I was on the computer (reading this forum, incidentally!) and dropped the receipt on the desk and said "I had your piano tuned while I was gone" and walked off.


I'm not in withdrawal anymore from the OM. NC is still in place and I have worked at managing my triggers. When I think about the A, it is with sadness, but not b/c of the loss of the A or the OM - it is over my actions. What I did to DH and to our marriage. I ache over the hurt I've caused DH. I grieve over the loss of DH's love, not the OM's falsehoods. I have a load of guilt that I battle with. When things seem to be OK with me and DH, the load is not so heavy and I can feel free of it for a while...but when I know he is in pain then I feel the full weight on me...does that make sense?


I think if the A hadn't happened, our M probably had a worse-then-fifty-percent chance of survival anyway. At least now we have the tools to try and save it. I agree, well worth the effort. Just hard as h3ll sometimes.

How can I draw him into conflict when he is so far into withdrawal he refuses to come out? This weekend was awful. He puts on a good show around the kids, around family, and to some extent at church. But when we were alone...he did NOT want to spend any time with me, nor did he want to schedule UA time. I finally coaxed him into talking last night and he tells me he still thinks I am a liar, that he doesn't trust me at all. he said he didn't think even a poly would help assure him I was honest about the details of the A b/c I'd insisted I'd take one if he wanted me to during the false recovery...making him think that I must know a way to "beat" a poly. That he didn't want to come home from his business trip. That home is not a refuge for him anymore. No kisses or any other intimacy (got a peck on the lips when we first saw each other after he came home, initiated by me, not him, stopped by him). He turns his face from me if I try to touch him or get close.

All I know to keep saying that I am not giving up but I don't know how much longer I can live with what feels like hatred. His LB is so far in the red that nothing I am doing is having any sort of impact. I tried to engage him talking a little about MB last night and he only said he agrees with what little he has read so far. No interest in actually putting it to practice. I am thinking this week will probably be the end of our counseling. He's convinced it's not helping and I am pretty frustrated as well. I wish we could find a counselor around here who'd work through MB with us.

Maybe HNHN was not the right thing to start with. Not that we've actually started with it. I started reading the book and there is no interest on his part. Maybe I should have started with Love Busters. I have worked very hard to eliminate LBs on my part. AOs and IB were probably my biggest issues. Obviously Dishonesty as relates to the A. I've refrained from AOs and IB, but I feel like I get stuck being independent when he actively seeks to avoid me and won't spend time with me - I want to be with him, I don't want to be independent. And I'm doing the LB of dishonesty not b/c I am being actively dishonest but simply b/c he BELIEVES me to be dishonest. Does this make sense?

I know I need to pull the weight of this. I know it's my responsibility and I caused this by having an A. And I know I can't expect him to be willing or able to meet my needs right now. I know reciprocity is just not going to happen right now. But how do I deal with the constant LBs coming from his side? It just makes me feel beaten down, but on one hand I feel like I deserve it. And I know I sound like I am feeling sorry for myself today. I'm just frustrated and sad and I'm lonely...I miss DH's love. It wasn't perfect but it was true and it was real. He loved me for who I was, flaws and all. He knew the real me. The OM never did. I took DH and his love for granted and if he'd ever give me another chance I'd never take it for granted again.

wulffpack_girl,

You MIGHT be able to lure him into a state of Conflict by:

Identifying the proper way to meet his ENs and beginning to do exactly that.

Identifying your own Love Busters that you do routinely and eliminating them.

I say MIGHT, because he may have shut down your account in his Love Bank, at least temporarily.

What will NOT work to get him to venture into caring enough again to engage you is to make his time with you all about engaging you regarding the affair and trying to work through the emotional holocaust every moment you are together.

Scheduling UA time is nearly impossible with a spouse in Withdrawal. They simply don't want to be with you enough to schedule it. Try to find things that can be done to meet his ENs and make your time together enjoyable (hopefully for both of you) without that time being a "scheduled UA time."

Also realize that as he enters into Conflict and begins to care about what he might be getting from you, his Taker will be the first thing to show up. This means that his first act in Conflict will be to engage in conflict. He is likely to make demands, DJs, AOs and the like and how YOU respond may be the determining factor as to whether your efforts make deposits or further withdrawals from his love bank either moving him forward or pushing him back into Withdrawal.

The bottom line is that you can't MAKE him do anything. You have no control over what he might do only what YOU will or will not do.

Does that make sense? Does it help at all?

Mark

Wulffpack,

Have you read Surviving an Affair by Harley. That might help you more than HHHH right now.

Your H is not angry with you Wulffpack, he is deeply afraid. Your successfully lying to him during the affair, in the false recovery and after has convinced him that he is totally defenseless against you. He did not KNOW you were lying. He could not tell. He feels like a man who suddenly realizes he is blind being led into a cave that he knows nothing about.

In my opinion you are missing the important fact in all of this and that is your H's fear of how defenseless he is. He is withdrawing not because he doesn't love you, he is withdrawing to protect himself because he sees himself as defenseless against you. He may well accept that you are telling him the truth NOW, but he fears you will revert to lying to him and hurt yet again.

You need to come at this from the point of view that you have a very frightened, damaged, fearful person on your hands. He does not want to be home because he associates home with you and he fears you. You have the capacity to hurt him like no one else on earth. If he did not love you, he would not have that fear because you couldn't hurt him. His withdrawal is his attempt to protect himself and hopefully lose the love for you. However, if you keep depositing in his love bank or trying to, he cannot easily lose that love now can he??? Hence he is making it hard for you to make deposits, right?

Do you see what I am saying?

Think about it.

JL

Thank you, both Mark and JL, for your replies. You both have given me some good points to think about and to work on.



Got it. Right now his love bank is closed (at least to me). I'll keep trying to meet his EN's and avoid LB's. Since UA time right now is pretty much nonexistent, I'll focus on making the time we spend together as a family enjoyable. And focus on the four of us spending more time together. FC was high on his list.

JL, I have read SAA - it was the very first book I read when I found MB. The book came and I devoured it in a weekend. I'm all on board with MB and doing my best to do it on my own, but DH just doesn't seem to want to move forward. Again, he says he's agreed with what little he's read so far but no interest in reading the book or learning about POJA or any of the four rules Harley covers in SAA. The only thing he did complete was the EN questionnaire. And I realize I did not deal with that very well at all because I was so hurt by how he'd filled it out.

He's definitely making it hard for me to make deposits. Not only by just being withdrawn and not physically spending time with me. He's still in ignore mode from last week, I texted him this morning and asked if he wanted to have lunch w/me and he ignored. He did respond to my email about the car insurance (took care of setting up a new policy today, I hope he sees that not as being financially controlling or anything but that he sees it as FS). Since the little "peck" on the lips when he came home Friday, no kisses. Not even goodnight/good morning. He used to always kiss me goodbye in the morning when he went to work, whether I was awake or not. Never realized how much I would miss it. It's hard to make my Taker sit back and shut up, and let the Giver keep driving.

JL, thank you for pointing out the fear present in this situation. I'll keep trying to do things to make me feel more safe to him. Took care of one of those today. Quit my PT job. There is no need for me to be out of the house in the evenings for one thing. For another, the OM knew about this job and this is one less way of him contacting me. And yet another, I used the job as an excuse to meet OM for the 2nd physical encounter, and met him after I'd gotten done w/class. DH triggers every time I am gone to teach nights. I still have 4 more weeks to teach under my current contract, which is 2 evening classes. I was scheduled to do a class in November and told them I could not, and that I needed a break from teaching for a while.


I know...I tried to control our recovery by lying, and look where that got us. I hate feeling out of control. I want to "fix" everything. But yeah, I need to be reminded from time to time that all I can control is me - the woman in the mirror. What I say, what I do, what kind of attitude I have. Everything else I have to leave in God's hands.

Here's something funny: I was trying to remember this quote I saw once on controlling our attitude and started googling for what I could remember - and I found this:

As your faith is strengthened you will find that there is no longer the need to have a sense of control, that things will flow as they will, and that you will flow with them, to your great delight and benefit. ~Emmanuel Teney

thanks...I'll keep y'all posted...

Wulffpack,

First and foremost you don't "fix" this. Recoverying and rebuilding a marriage from an affair requires HEALING, not fixing. I am glad you stepped back from the PT job especially if this is how you carried on your affair.

You need to help your H heal and you do that with a smile, with a touch, with patience and with time. He must heal himself, just like any incision but you can help by keeping the wound clean, by changing the dressings, by making sure he is comfortable.

Think about this for a moment. As for meeting his needs, right now he won't let you because when you do, you touch deep within him and the frightens him. You just do the best you can, be calm, and be kind. As for the order of his needs they will change, SF is likely to move back toward the top as other needs are met. You can always be open and honest with him no matter what he does.

You burned him badly with the false recovery actually worse than your affair. He could understand you statements that he failed you even if he actually did not, but the lying and false recovery really he cannot understand, can you???

I would strongly suggest that you contact the Harleys and seek their advice. The money spent is much cheaper than divorce and they are pro's at this.

You must give this time and have patience with yourself and with him. T&P are the watchwords.

JL

JL, I know I can't "fix" it - the lying and the FR was me trying to take all of it into my own hands and "fix" it. I guess the urge to fix is from my need for control - does that make sense?



Yes, I agree the lying hurt him worse than the rest of it. I denied him crucial information that he needed to make a fully informed decision as to whether to remain in our marriage or not. When I read the section in LB about lying I can see where I was both trying to be a protector liar (protecting him from unpleasant information) and an avoid trouble liar (selfishly trying to protect myself from the consequences of my actions). Now my words mean nothing to him and I fully understand why. Again, I was trying to "fix" it on my own, assuming I knew best and making a DJ as to his ability to process the truth of what I'd done. By lying I showed that I didn't trust him. None of that justifies lying to him.

So now when I am O&H he doesn't believe me. He doubts my feelings for him are real.



The problem is when I try to talk with him, the conversation always comes back to the A. Last night I tried to talk to him about working on our present but his words were, "What's the point?" I tried to tell him that I believe our present is what we can DO something about, that neither of us can change the past. He pointed out that he hasn't healed from the past. I told him that I thought that being together, spending time together, and meeting each other's ENs would be part of what would help him to heal. He always circles back to the A and said how he doesn't believe my efforts are genuine. At one point I told him that the A and the lying were b/c I had a hole in my character, a hole I had committed to fixing. He replied that he sees it as a "hole in my heart" for the OM, one that I'd always had and always would have (remember, the OM was an ex-boyfriend from HS). He doesn't believe I am with him because I want to be - hence all the LB deposits I try to make fall flat.

I told him that he had shown amazing courage, dedication, and love by just staying through all of this when goodbye would have been so much easier.

I didn't want to get into the past but that is all he's focused on. He seems so hopeless. Hope is the one thing that I still have. It's the only thing that gets me out of bed in the mornings and keeps me going throughout the day. I spend most of my day at work obsessively reading this forum and looking for advice and things that will help. That may or may not be good for me, I don't know (I know if they knew how little I focus on work it probably would not be good for my job!) I'd quit the day job too if it meant I could spend more time trying to help him heal. Right now I just feel like none of it matters without him. Not the job, not the house, everything is empty without him by my side. It's like I have no energy left over for anything else. I am supposed to be training for a half marathon and I simply don't have the desire to do it. I should have gotten up this morning and gone for a run, I should be getting ready for work right now, but I can't think about anything else when this is so consuming. It just doesn't matter...does that make sense? And I know it is not going to happen overnight, I know this will take T&P, but his hopelessness is contagious. When he focuses on the A all I can see is myself as the woman I was while it was going on or during the FR. A miserable excuse for a human being. A liar and a cheater. Someone who doesn't deserve happiness and definitely doesn't deserve the love of a decent, honest man. It knocks me right back into that pit. Yet he sees any evidence of depression as pining away for the OM and no other explanation is sufficient.

I told him I'd really like to find a counselor who'd work through the Harley material with us. That may very well end up being the Harleys via telephone. He said "OK." I plan on asking our counselor tomorrow about MB, although when I mentioned it before he seemed to be unfamiliar with it, so he might be a dead end. I definitely agree with DH that what we are doing is not helping.

OK I really have to get ready for work...I've got more thoughts so I'll check back later.

Anyway...made it to work and just have more thoughts.

So obviously I am a control freak. That's also something that I have been trying to work on, as there is absolutely no control over this situation. The only thing I can control is myself. The only thing I can "fix" is myself, my wrong attitudes and my behavior. I've been trying to leave everything else in God's hands. And I know He does everything in His own time, so patience comes in again. It's just so hard to be patient sometimes. I see the positive stories on this forum and I want so badly for us to be one of the successes.

Thinking about who I was and what I did makes me sick. Early in recovery (real recovery - not the false R), I literally made myself sick. I cycled through a litany of self-punishing behaviors from throwing up to cutting myself. Now I see it as reactions to the feeling of being out of control. But I still feel the pain and disgust with myself. It makes it harder when I feel like that is how DH sees me, as digusting. He's even said as much, that he gets to the point where he looks at me and I disgust him.

I know all I can do - all I can control - is my response to him, my ability and willingness to meet his EN's, my ability to avoid LB's. I can continue to build on my list of EP's to help his feel like I am safe.

As far as EP's, I have:
1 - I will not attempt contact w/OM in any way, shape, or form. If OM attempts contact, I will terminate contact immediately and tell DH. This applies to any individuals in Group A of the Opposite Sex Protection Plan. This means no physical contact, no talking about maritial/personal problems, no ANYTHING.
2 - I will not discuss marital or personal issues with persons of the opposite sex. This includes particular cautions when dealing with Group B and C individuals.
3 - I will not put myself into situations with members of the opposite sex that could be viewed as inappropriate. Includes B,C, and D individuals. This includes but is not limited to: not going out to lunch with one one other male, even if work-related; avoid travelling alone with a member of the opposite sex (this one will take some doing at work, but I can take my personal car if necessary).
4 - If talking to close female friends/family regarding marriage, I will express an attitude of respect for DH at all times. (This may be more of a boundary than an EP?)
5 - DH has full access to all email and financial account passwords, cell phones, voice mail (cell and work) etc.
6 - No social networking sites. Ever. Period.
7 - Abstain from alcohol.
8 - Come home during lunch break each day unless otherwise prohibited by work conflicts. Lunch may be allowed with family/female friends/coworkers when the policy of POJA is followed.

What's already been done as relates to EPs: FB account has been terminated. Secondary (work) cell phone has been turned in. Quit PT job (have to finish out current contract - 2 more nights of work and then no more working at night). I should have put all this in writing at the beginning of our real recovery, or at least as soon as I discovered MB. I was doing them, although pre-MB I didn't know to call them EPs. I did travel for work with one other male coworker recently (although as a side note, we're all pretty sure he's an in-the-closet Group E - and I don't mean a dead person!)

Some of these I came up with while doing the Love Dare. The LD calls them "me boundaries", but they seem more like rules during conflict to me. I think they are still good, and I added more.
1 - I will listen first before speaking. I will not interrupt DH while he is talking and I will give him time to respond.
2 - I will deal with my own issues first (ex - leave work stress at work!)
3 - I will control my temper and avoid AOs at all costs.
4 - I will not call names.
5 - I will not discuss problems in front of the children.
6 - I will respect DH's opinion. I will refrain from making DJ's against DH.
7 - I will be O&H at all times with DH. I will not lie thinking to protect him, to make myself look better, or to avoid potential consequences of my actions.
8 - If I get upset or feel like I am close to losing my temper, I will simply say that I need a break and walk away.

Since right now all I can control is me, what else do I need to add?

Off for meetings. Hectic day at work.

We BH's do tend to get stuck in the past. It sometimes provides validation -- "Look, I was right for once in this relationship!" -- and other times current power in the relationship. It's very hard to let it go.

The solution the Harleys recommend is to focus on meeting his needs here and now. Even though he feels like he hasn't healed from the past, focusing on what you can do together NOW will heal the wounds in time.

But don't you DARE try to tell him that! If you do so, it's a Disrespectful Judgment. You think you know better than he does, so you try to convince him to focus on the present and future for his own good. That's a big Love Buster, but a subtle one. Don't educate him in any way. If he asks, explain, but never put yourself in a position where you even tacitly appear to be in an intellectually superior position. Always peers. Always side-by-side. Never one leading the other... lead TOGETHER.

Wulff,

It has been my observation that "control freaks" are often people very afraid of life, very afraid of being wrong, etc. Hence they hang on tight.

I tell the post-docs that work for me that you cannot do cutting edge research if you fear being wrong. There is nothing wrong with being wrong, but there is something seriously wrong with remaining wrong.

No one likes to fail, and no likes to be wrong, but there are worse things that includes doing nothing, or never daring to make your life better.

If you were to come to understand that the best control you have over your H is to make his life good, then you would stop trying to control him. The previous comment about the love buster of educating his is dead on.

He needs to spend his time in the past, and you need to learn from the past and move to a better place in your life. He has to see that being with you is more pleasant than being without you and that takes time and lots of "baby steps" on your part and his.

Please think about this.

JL

PS: You might tell him something like "trust is overrated". Nah! you really cannot say that but actually tell him that you don't expect him to trust you until he is convinced he can. You are open, you will be honest, and YOU ENCOURAGE HIM to check on you anyway and anytime he wants to. You will answer all questions and make your life an open book to him. Of course in order to check he must reengage into your life again, right? Think about that as well. You want him checking until he gets tired of it.

WPG, when they build a bridge across a broad river, they have to do a lot of subsurface preparations... riverbed excavation, drilling of holes for pilings. Placing re-bar, pouring in concrete.

Now, all of this goes on beneath the surface of the water. But rivers are full of mud & stuff, so you can't see any of it. To look at it, you'd think nothing was happening. Maybe you see a few guys in orange vests standing on a barge with some gear, apparently pumping gravel or concrete into the water, or taking measurements. You might think, what the heck for? You see only the work, but you see no result. But: a foundation is being built.

You didn't just empty your husband's LoveBank with your affair. With the false recovery, I might say, you sank it.

The common wisdom on this site (and I see it cited so often that I confess I'm not sure on whether it's direct from the Harleys' experience or whether it's simply the common wisdom) is that it can take 2 years to recover a marriage, even in good circumstances, O&H from the start, no FRs. You're only 13 months removed from d-day#1 and barely 8 months from d-day#2. This is early. It's not even a semi-respectable time to quit.

You want results. You want to SEE results. We all do. But results are a result of sustained commitment & preseverance. (Hey, didja hear the one about the guy who said "At first, I persevered, for a little while..." ?) As you've acknowledged yourself, after all, he hasn't left. He hasn't tossed you out or slapped you with a lawyer. Now, he's not the happy, close, loving guy you want him to be, yet. But you've still got a lot of "yet" to get through.

Your job right now isn't to fret about whether any of your LB deposits are building up below the surface. Your job right now is to keep tossing them in. <Kerplunk>.

Dr. Harley's statement in his "Ten Basic Concepts" video is to the effect that, if couples follow his program, two years later they trust one another and are in love again. He doesn't say anything about "two to five years", or other caveats, just that if a *couple* follows his program for restoring their marriage, two years later they're in love and trust one another again.

thank you - all of you. I needed the encouragement to keep on keeping on...yeah, I admit, and I know it's my Taker talking, I DO want to see some results. Biggest thing is that I so want my EN for affection filled. The lack of it HURTS. But yes, as a big positive, he's still home, he hasn't contacted an attorney. And he said he'd give the Harley's method a chance, either we find a counselor locally, or I'm trying to encourage him to try the coaching center together.

JL - yes - my whole life I have always been afraid of being wrong. HATE being wrong. Funny how I could justify to myself going off and DOING something as wrong as an A. Anyway I see those same tendencies in our oldest DD. She hates being wrong. Even our youngest, she hates making mistakes but not to quite the same degree as our oldest. I don't want to see either of them end up like me, you know?


I love that analogy! Actually, TWO good analogies with Glove's bridge-building one. I need to just keep pouring in that concrete.

We were scheduled for couple's counseling today. He was supposed to have individual counseling yesterday but apparently his therapist had some kind of emergency and had to cancel. I asked him last night if he was going w/me today and he said no, he just didn't think it was helpful. I asked if there was a point in me going, if it was not helpful, and he said that one of us needed to go and tell the counselor that we were not coming back, that at least he needed "a break." I don't see a need in going on my own if we can better spend the money with the coaching center. DH is right, it's not helpful. We need action steps and tools, and not only that we need someone to hold us accountable for following through. We've ordered tons of books and workbooks that are useless unless BOTH of us commit to following through.

What's the best way to deal with comments like the one he made the other night, about him seeing it as I had a "hole in my heart" for the OM? Do I tell him that I understand why he feels that way, but that it's not true, tell DH that I love him, and leave it at that?

Also - re: DoNoMo's comments - I hope I haven't already hurt DH with DJ's by trying to talk MB with him. I'm just thinking about our conversation the other night, where he was stuck in the past, and I said that we couldn't do anything about the past, only the present, and how the Harley's program deals with focusing on the present and future. Maybe it wasn't too bad, if he is at least willing to consider MB.

"I'm sorry for what I did. I love you because you are willing to be with me despite my mistakes. Thank you for telling me how you really feel; your honesty is really attractive "

Don't try to tell him he believes a lie -- which is what "but that's not true" says -- because that's a DJ. Acknowledge his feelings. Express appreciation for his honesty, your love for only him, and that . Then move the conversation away from recovery-talk if you can, and into something more pleasant.

Remember that every time either one of you brings up the affair, it withdraws Love Units. Answer any of his questions openly and honestly -- full, radical honesty is key here! -- but try to steer the conversation to something more pleasant. Or if it is no longer pleasant and safe, excuse yourself to do something else and come back later when you're composed.


As long as the conversations are always taken with the attitude of "I want to know how he feels about trying this. I do not know any more than he does about the topic, but want to explore it together. I am willing to take no for an answer" you'll typically stay clear of DJ and SD territory.



If he's considering it, he probably feels good about it, which means you've probably avoided the pitfalls of coming off like you're lecturing or educating him.

Thanks, DNM...I hope he does feel good about it.

Just got back from a weekend with the kids. I tried to focus on making sure they had a good time as a top priority, with DH as my next priority. Definitely succeeded with the kids, they had a blast! Felt like several times DH would catch himself having a good time and then retreat again. It's still hard sometimes for me to deal with constant rejection, but I haven't stopped trying. I avoided bringing up our issues over the weekend and for the most part so did he, although he left an article up on the computer about wives having affairs that had been emailed to him from another site. He didn't mention it until we got home and he emailed it to me. Apparently they were having some sort of teleseminar last night that started at 8, but I didn't get the kids in bed till almost 9 so by the time I checked my email it had already started. I asked if he wanted to listen to it and he said that they replay them. I said maybe we could listen to it later, then. He said OK (or something to that effect). And that was it. I'd already read the article when I saw it on the computer this weekend. The 2 couples they featured in the article had gone on to recover their marriages. So for me, stuff like that gives me hope, but I don't know what his thoughts are or why he sent it.

Anyway, I wanted to do something spectaular for DH this weekend, or try to, anyway! He had told me once he had always dreamed of driving a racecar, so I booked him one of the NASCAR driving experiences. I told him I wanted to give him one of his dreams. I think I may have been more excited about it than he was! I videotaped him and the whole time he was driving I was trying so hard not to cry, I just felt so happy for him. I just wanted him to be able to do something that he had always wanted to do. No, it didn't change things between us, but at least I tried to give him a happy memory. I have to honestly admit that I was hurt that he didn't thank me, but I've sucked it up, put my big girl panties on, and gone on. Can't help it that I keep expecting miracles, I guess. The closet optimist in me.

Came home and did the unpacking and getting things put away, started the laundry, cooked dinner and cleaned up (I am NOT a chef, he's the cook around our house but I tried to give him a night off!), played with the kids. I'd written him a message on the mirror in the bathroom before we left last week, telling him I loved him and asking him to marry me again. I told him I was not giving up, that I was going to keep asking until the answer was yes.

Back at work and I need to send him my schedule for this week. He doesn't ask but I'm sending it anyway. I do have to teach tonight (one of 2 nights left) so I know this probably won't be a good night for him. I'll be glad when this class is over and that will be one less trigger for him to deal with.

Wulff,

It seems you are doing well. Don't over do it, but keep him abreast of your schedule. Thank him when he does something like cook the meals. Make sure the kids know that you love him and why. Does that last one seem odd? Often compliments given to a 3rd party have far more impact that compliments given directly to the person.

I would recommend that you touch him when you can. Simply put your hand on his arm, or pat him on the back as you walk by, simple things. Most of us guys are very aware of touch and sensitive to it. It can be a powerful subliminal way to convey your feelings for him.

Hang in there.

JL

I'm trying...it's just so hard sometimes. Not hard to love him, because I do - totally and completely. It's more of a wondering if/when will come the point that I can tell him what I need and know that he'll try to fill those needs. Or even care that I have needs. Right now he's in massive ignore mode. Doesn't kiss me goodnight (but at least he waited up till I got home from work and at least said goodnight). Doesn't tell me goodbye before he leaves for work in the morning. He used to kiss me goodbye and tell me he loved me even if I was still sleeping. Now he just walks out, this morning my alarm was going off, and I would've tried to wake him if it was me, but he just left without a word. He doesn't respond to emails. At least he did respond to a text I sent just before leaving class last night, I'd asked if I could get him anything on my way home and he responded no.

It's funny about the 3rd party comment, JL, our oldest DD saw the note I left him in the bathroom (wrote in lipstick on the mirror, lol) and she asked me why I would ask Daddy to marry me again. I told her it was because I loved him very much and I'd marry him over again every day if he asked me to.

It's just the ignoring is so hard to take. I know he's afraid to trust me again. I know he's hurt and in pain. Sometimes I wonder if there's a need in there for him to either punish me by the behavior or maybe to see if I'll break and have another A, or maybe to see if I'll just give up. Is the ignoring considered IB? Regardless of how Dr. Harley may classify it, it's always been the biggest LB for me with DH, his stonewalling/ignoring/avoidance. He's always used it as his response in our marriage, usually in response to LB'ing behavior from me (AOs, DJs). And before, I would fly into "harpy" mode and go after him while he retreated, continuing the AOs and DJs. Something I work to avoid now.

I couldn't sleep last night after class (one more night to go!), I never can...teaching at night gets me all wound up and it takes me a while to wind down. So he went to bed before me. When I came upstairs I crawled into bed beside him while he was sleeping and just took his hand.

I have to stop, between reading Hopeful_Person's post and writing this, now I am crying at work and I have a meeting in 15 minutes. Ugh.

That's progress in the right direction. It shows that he cares enough about your needs to try to meet some of them. Keep working it.

And don't you think that's progress? You're seeing him peek out of Withdrawal and into Conflict. You can recognize Conflict when he's willing to state his needs... as angrily and Love-Busterishly as they may come out. You gotta draw him into Conflict to bring him into Intimacy. Most people think Conflict is a pretty hellish way to live, but the truth is it's part of the road back to Intimacy.


That's NOT what is going on. He's not scared of trusting you. He's INCAPABLE of trusting you. As a married couple, your Trust Bank is very closely tied into your Love Bank. The longer your actions are consistent with your words, the more trust you will build. Any inconsistency makes withdrawals. Above a certain threshold, he'll trust you again... but only because your actions have been so perfectly consistent with your words for so long.

Typical length of time for trust to be restored -- once BOTH partners are working the program -- is two years. You haven't even started the timer on that yet until you've respectfully persuaded him to join you in MarriageBuilding together.


It's an indicator that your husband is typically in Withdrawal. He can't get out of it without your help. Remember the four intimate emotional needs: Sexual Fulfillment, Recreational Companionship, Intimate Conversation, and Affection. Work on filling those better than anybody else can, and you'll see him pop into Conflict from time to time... and if you get him drunk enough, maybe even Intimacy

(I'm a believer that alcohol lowers the Romantic Love Threshold substantially in most people.)


Of course! He retreats in the face of your attack. The alternative is to try the Dueling-Dictators strategy on you, which he's found leads to more passive-aggressive behavior from you. Even if he "wins" the argument, you make him so miserable afterward that he questions if it's worth it.

Even when he's right, he's wrong.

Now, maybe you think I'm just projecting here, but if you refrain from Love Busters and meet his needs, that demonstrates consistency. Until you've demonstrated that consistency long enough, how can he hope you won't destroy him again?


And that's progress. Keep moving in the right direction. Reach the point where you can join one another on this journey back into Intimacy. And remember the clock hasn't started on that two-year journey in Recovery until he joins you... it may take a while.

thank you for your response, DNM...I just miss DH so much. It's been very difficult to fulfill the 4 intimate EN's as he just doesn't want to be with me. I have much better luck with the others - DS, for example, one of the things he mentioned on his EN questionnaire was how he hated having to clean up the breakfast dishes before he could start cooking supper (I admit, I was always in such a rush to get out the door to get the kids to school and get to work in the mornings I would leave the breakfast dishes stacked in the sink). I make sure there are no dirty dishes left behind and unload the dishwasher if I need to. Affection I can do, I leave notes, I tell him I love him, I buy him gifts (from big to small). Went to the grocery store at lunch and bought a 12-pack of the soft drink he drinks and put it in the fridge so they'd be cold when he got home. Stuff like that is easy for me and it's almost like a game for me b/c it's fun (hmmm...let's see...what can I do for DH today? lol) I just don't know if he really likes any of it because he never says anything. The EN questionnaire we took is not helpful in that regard because all he said was that I didn't give him enough and when I did he didn't like it, so I've been trying anything I can think of to see if anything hits the mark.

SF is difficult to fulfill as he's told me he has images of me and the OM before, during, and after and he just doesn't want SF with me. I've always enjoyed SF with DH and most always want it with him, but lately the rejection is just wearing on me. I've always kind of had a higher drive than DH, so it's not like rejection is anything new, but still...We still try occasionally but he's either so nonresponsive or his desire comes so totally out of nowhere that it just makes me feel...used, maybe? Confused, definitely. I don't know how to explain it. I know that sounds horrible. It's like I know the affection connection is missing now with him and even through SF, I still can't "reach" him.

I'd agree with the assessment about alcohol and the romantic love threshold, but alcohol won't work for us, though! DH is a recovering alcoholic (was in recovery before we ever met, he has been sober for over 20 years now) and I'm no longer drinking. Although DH disagrees that alcohol played any part in my A and says that me not drinking makes no difference to him (as far as an EP) - because even though I may have been drunk almost every night I chatted with OM online, I was stone cold sober when I made the decision to take things physical with OM. Twice. I can't blame anyone or anything for those decisions but myself.

I learned a lot about the stonewalling issue when we did the Love & Respect Bible study. It really clarified for me that I was also responsible for the condition of our marriage pre-A. I was not a respectful wife. I responded to what I perceived as unloving behavior from DH in a disrepectful manner, which caused him to be more unloving, which made me respond disrespectfully, on and on...until I did the ultimate in disrespectful acts and had an A.

So his "no" response to my text is evidence of Conflict? I guess I didn't really think that - I guess I think of conflict as fighting, but that's not it, is it? It is just stating one's needs, however they come out?

And yes, he DID wait up for me. A few weeks ago, it was lights-out and he was in bed when I got home. Little things. I will keep looking for the little things.

and now he's gone to bed. It's not even 9 o'clock. Nothing seems to make a difference. He just can't stand to be around me at all.

How old are you guys? If you're younger than forty, this is extremely atypical. It indicates either a chemical imbalance in him, or (much more likely) that he's regularly masturbating to pornography.

Doing the latter results in "contrast effect" much like an affair will, and is an example of Independent Behavior that he'll need to get under control if you're going to MarriageBuild together.

DNM, I'm 38, he's 43. I don't *think* either of those are true. We went through the whole "hysterical bonding" phase during the false R where we were practically having SF daily. Even while we were dating he was always lower drive than me. I always felt like it was b/c he didn't find me physically attractive before, but now I feel like it's b/c he is repulsed by me because of what I did. I don't have any evidence to support that he's looking at porn and the only chemical imbalance is his depression, which I think he's always dealt with depressive tendencies but my A threw him into full-blown depression. He has a prescription for antidepressants, he's tried a zillion different kinds, but he says nothing helps. I kind of think he may have stopped taking the last ones on his own - I don't think he's taking them now.

Here's the email I received from him this morning:


I just don't know what to do anymore.

Chemical imbalance it is! A temporary depression is pretty normal in a betrayed spouse. And antidepressants typically reduce sex drive even further. A long-term, permanent depression from possibly before your marriage, though, is a different thing.


THIS IS AN INVITATION INTO CONFLICT.

It's not a reason to be sad. It's a reason to cheer! He is briefly dropping out of withdrawal to tell you his needs. He needs more Openness and Honesty from you.

He's asking for you to show him that there's a way back to trusting each other again. That's within your power!

I'm going to go out on a limb, though, and probably say that he's not asking for more openness about the affair. Let him know you'll always answer any question he has about it openly and honestly, but don't focus your O&H efforts on discussing the past. Here are a few ideas Jennifer gave me:

* Sit down every night at the same time -- say, 8:33PM -- and talk about your day. VERY specifically. Focus on your feelings. Don't make this any longer than 15 minutes, but account for everything you did that day, and don't leave anything out.
* Share your thoughts from your journal, if any, and from your discussions on this board.
* Tell him your plans each morning. Where you'll be, what you intend to do, and who you'll be with. This can be very brief, but you're outlining that there is trust to be had.
* Do everything you can to show that your words are perfectly consistent with your actions. Focus your efforts in this on the present and future, not the past.
* Update him regularly throughout the day on where you are and what you're doing, expressing your admiration and love for him in the process.

Admittedly, you have a False Recovery to get over, which makes things more difficult. Just having an affair in the first place radically reduces your chances of not getting a divorce. But seize each opportunity to rebuild trust. That part is up to you. These kinds of comments from him are an invitation to recover, and a clue to what he wants from you. You don't get that in Withdrawal!

Clearly, something you're doing is working because he dropped out of Withdrawal into Conflict to write you this note expressing his needs.

He's giving you the answer here.

Already you are complaining that things are not moving quickly enough for you and you are thinking of giving up. But winning back the trust you lost with your selfish acts of adultery and lying will have a timeline closely resembling the reading of "War and Peace". You are looking for the Cliff notes version. It just don't work that way.

What you are doing now probably seems more like appeasement to him. He is thinking, "what is going to happen when I let myself love her again? All the nicey-nice will go away and she will be sneaking off with OM again and lying about it." He has to see that you are changing into a person who could never do that. And that will take time and great effort on your part. It may or may not save your marriage. But you will be the better for it. There is no downside to killing the selfishness that lurks in all of us.

Stay the course. Be the rock. Your old marriage is dead; long live the new improved one!

Yeah. I love the analogy some poster used here a long time ago from a beer commercial. All you see is a boat, and a dude with a bucket of dirt. He dumps the dirt into the lake, then rows away. Another boat comes, and another bucket of dirt. You don't see anything change, then suddenly after a zillion trips the first bit of dirt stays above the surface. They keep adding, and then eventually bring out some palm trees, sand, and other things and have a party on the island they built.

Recovery is like that. You spend a lot of time dumping dirt into the lake (making Love Bank deposits) without seeing any of the reward for doing so. It takes time and consistent effort -- without sabotaging your own efforts with Love Busters -- before you start to see any results. Then the magical day comes that you exceed the Romantic Love Threshold... and stay there most of the time.

Then you see the huge progress and you're ready to party together!

Thank you, DNM and Nano...I actually started thinking after I posted that maybe this was conflict. I responded back to his email and I hope I did OK - this is what I said:


Like I said, I hope I responded OK. I never would have taken a poly before, even though I said I would. I would have backed out of it at the last minute. He thinks that somehow I know how to "beat" one. While my feelings are mixed on the legitimacy of polygraphs (based on my criminal justice background), there's no real evidence for them being beatable except possibly by a psychopath/sociopath. I admit to being a completely awful human being during the A and during the false R, but hopefully he does not think I am one of those!!!



Should I "invite" him to sit down with me tonight and talk?



I have learned so much - I just can't believe that there was not a reason for me to have learned all of this, you know? And it's not just based on faith, although spiritually what I have learned is a big part of it. I still have a ways to go in trusting God and trusting in His forgiveness (more on that in a sec). But I've learned that there's a HUGE difference between "following your heart" (which is what the world tells us) and "LEADING your heart" (which is what the Lord tells us to do). I won't be that woman again. I wish I had learned all of this years ago, if I could go back in time my wedding gift to myself would be the books I've read. I would tell myself how crucial it is to love my husband unconditionally, to meet his needs, and to respectfully let him know when my needs weren't being met, instead of being a b*tch about it.

My mom was over this morning, the kids are out of school so she watches them while I work. I have a hard time NOT talking to her about it, even though she doesn't know how to really help. When she and Dad first got married, she found evidence he had cheated on her. Dad was her one and only, and after he'd gone away for basic training and come back home (I think it was during basic training, regardless it was very early in their marriage), she contracted genital warts. At first she had no idea what they were. When she realized it and confronted Dad, he denied everything and has never told her anything different. She made the decision to put it behind her and move on. They've been married 43 years. All this happened before I was born and I never knew about it until recently.

Anyway, back to God's forgiveness. I was telling Mom about how he doesn't believe I've told him everything. I asked her if she really wanted to know the only other secret I carry that I've never told her. She looked at me kind of funny and I said it had nothing to do with the A. I told my mother that when I was 23, I'd had an abortion, and it was DH's (this was before we were married). I've had that secret in my heart for so long and I've never breathed a word of it to her. She just hugged me and told me she loved me. Part of me felt awful for dumping it on her this morning, but the other part was so relieved. Despite knowing all that I have done, she still loves me. DH knew about it, he was by my side the whole time and told me it was my decision and he'd support me any way he could. I have struggled with it every day ever since. DH and I talked about it during our false R, how I've carried that pain inside me and just boxed it up, never really allowed myself to heal from it. I never went to my parents and only DH and two of my friends know. It's not like it's something you want to walk around and broadcast, you know? Years later, when we were trying to get pregnant with DD #1, I struggled with fertility issues and it took quite some time before we were able to conceive. I felt like it was God's punishment on me for the abortion. So my issues with trusting God's forgiveness go way beyond the A, and that is something I am working on within me. I also know I have to forgive myself for all of it, and somehow that is harder for me than trusting in God's forgiveness, if that even makes sense. I know that is not how it is, according to God, but that is just how I feel inside.

I didn't really mean to write all this, I just needed to get it out. I appreciate anyone who has been able to read this far!!!

Just tell me I didn't do any LB'ing in my response to him this morning - I have really been focusing on avoiding them!

That's all I want. I believe we can get there one day, I just hope DH can get there too.

A lot of times, all it takes to get some perspective is a third-party to point out the details. I often wished I had a couple of very helpful people from this forum just leaning over my shoulder listening to every conversation and helping me understand what was really going on. Counseling with Jennifer really helped us get on the right track... I wish I could have afforded more sessions with her.


You did OK. You said what was in your heart (meeting his O&H need), you expressed admiration, you apologized -- which helps a lot, even though it's not strictly required to recover -- and you kept it focused on what you're doing rather than what you expect from him. Kudos!

His response will almost certainly be more Conflict, more Taker lashing out. Expect it. He's not going to welcome your letter with open arms. He's going to find something else to grab onto to justify being in Conflict. Welcome this Taker. Be aware he's probably going to Love-Bust, and recognize it for what it is: an unschooled Taker running loose.

Much better that -- Conflict, and a rampaging Taker -- than Withdrawal. Two partners in Withdrawal lead to divorce. Two partners in Intimacy resolve their problems without a whole lot of outside intervention. That leaves the rest of us -- one in Conflict or Intimacy, the other in a different state -- trying our best to make it work but getting frustrated from time to time.


Negotiate it if you like, or just sit down in the same room together and start talking. Remember you're negotiating with his Taker right now if he's in Conflict. The Taker has no interest in your feelings or your best interest. Only himself. This is totally normal! If you decide to negotiate it rather than just plopping down and starting to talk about your day, keep your negotiation pleasant and safe, and if it becomes unpleasant or unsafe, excuse yourself and try again later.


Yeah. I think a "His Needs, Her Needs" course should really be required study prior to marriage... but who am I to impose that on anybody else?


Cool quote! Facebooked "Don't follow your heart. Lead it."



Unconditional Love, if you are religious, is God's domain; man is incapable of it, though it's a nifty standard to aspire to. In practice, Unconditional Love leads to continual Sacrifice, which depletes your husband's love bank in your heart without him knowing about it.

Regardless of your intentions, human love is always conditional. If someone engages in enough behavior to reduce their balance in the Love Bank, eventually you'll hate them no matter how you want to love them. It's a natural consequence. Recognize you're incapable of unconditional love. So is everybody else. Do everything you can to meet your partner's needs, and do your best to show him how he can meet yours. How long your love lasts is dependent on how full your Love Bank is.


Giver & Taker at work there. Any time you're of two minds about something, one is the Giver concerned with the welfare of others above your own, one is the Taker concerned with your own welfare above that of anybody else. You decide which one was calling the shots

Regardless, living Radical Honesty in every aspect of your life is so very, very liberating. Since I started practicing it both at home and at work, it's been so much easier to keep my stories straight!

Yes, my wife may have been the one who had the A, but I lived a secret second life, too. It was hard to give up, and if my boundaries with the opposite sex had been any worse, I'd have had an A too. My "extraordinary precautions" protected me; my wife had few, and had the A. A marriage will every so often end up with both partners in Conflict. Those EPs protect you from an affair even when you aren't getting along, so that you can repair the marriage without the interference of Contrast Effect from some other person!


I'm not religious. I think you know that. But I still like some Biblical examples. Job did not deserve any of the punishment he received. He suffered in spite of his righteousness.

Bad things happen to good people. It's not a punishment, and it's not a test. It's just life happening.

You did the best you could with the information you had at the time. You could have made no other decision than the one that you made, because you had no other information than what you had then.

The same applies here. Anybody else in your situation would also have had an affair. Now you know how to protect yourself from ever being in that situation again. That's what MarriageBuilders is all about: learning how best to love just one person for the rest of your life.

EDIT: if you can afford a few sessions with the Harleys, it can make all the difference in the world. They fix these kinds of things for a living, and EVERY case they deal with is one spouse enthusiastic about rebuilding the marriage, and the other one not so enthusiastic. It's just the way it goes, because if both partners are enthusiastic they fix it on their own, and if neither partner is they never make the appointment. You're in the exact position to benefit together. See if you can negotiate $200 to talk with Jennifer or Steve. The money is better spent there than a polygraph!

Thanks, DNM, appreciate you taking the time to read my novella!


I went home at lunch - I've been doing that as much as possible as I thought it was one more way to show accountability for my time. DH was home already - unexpected. No mention of the email or my response. I offered to make him lunch but he didn't want anything. So I started working on the Bible study that he'd previously asked me to do with him. He comes and sits down on the couch right next to the kitchen and starts talking about how he's priced shutters for the house and all this other stuff, and maybe we need to sit down and make a list of everything we want to do and prioritize it, etc. No Taker...it was wierd.

Don't get me wrong, I am thrilled that he's talking about something that would seem to indicate the possibility of a future...but why on the heels of that email??? He may have listened to the teleseminar, I don't know how long he'd been home but the website was still up on the computer in the garage. (Can't remember if I mentioned before, but it was from another surviving affairs type of website that he gets newsletters from, this particular call had 3 couples featured and in each case, the wife had had the A and the couples were all reconciled.) I can't see that making any difference, though. Just confused.

I can't take credit for it! It was in the Love Dare. You start out thinking it's for your spouse, but it's really a lot about you, your thinking, your mindset. The world says "follow your heart" - but if you are not leading it in the right direction, then something or someone else is.

I've suggested counseling with the Harleys on a couple of occasions. Trying not to be pushy. I may mention it again tonight if he seems open...found out at lunch though that he's got to go in and work some on 3rd shift though so he'll probably go to bed when the kids do, so we probably won't have a chance to talk at all tonight. In our situation, if he won't agree to counseling w/the Harleys, would it still be beneficial for me to seek it on my own?

Definitely. They can give you much better advice. They are all three licensed practicing therapists, but aren't allowed to call themselves that outside of their home state, so it's called "telephone coaching". Totally worth $200 for an hour. My wife and I were at a total impasse, me insisting on having complete transparency, her insisting she had a right to privacy, on January 6, and I was ready to kick her out over it (though that would have been an interesting proposition, considering she's a stay-at-home Mom). January 7 we started doing the homework she gave us, and it's been mostly even-keeled and better on the rollercoaster since then.

WPG, if you figure this stuff all the way out someday, let me know.

I find it easy to get tied up in knots on this stuff. Scripture tells me about forgiveness. But I'll be totally honest, it still feels too self-serving for me to claim it. The best I can muster is to say "It's God's call to make."

Forgiving myself? I'm not quite sure what that means. Why should I forgive myself? Deep down, I'm still hugely pi$$ed at myself for how I conducted myself, for the rotten, selfish, bankrupt decisions I made during those 2 & a half months. After all, the guy whose wife I "borrowed" probably hasn't forgiven me. His marriage is gone, and the preponderance of everything I've read tells me that I'd likely only dredge up pain for him if I were to reemerge into his life to ask him for it. Indeed, who am I to forgive myself? So the anger is still there. I am able to set it aside almost all the time now. The few times lately that I've indulged myself to let that anger resurface, it can still burn white hot. So I've learned to just let it be, for the most part.

My wife has forgiven me, and I do accept that, because it's a forgiveness that's tangible to me -- I can see, hear, & feel it every day. Seeing, hearing, feeling her, I cannot do her the disservice of suggesting that her forgiveness is not good enough for me. I can only be grateful for it.

I don't know why I don't quite feel that way yet about God's forgiveness. When I'm alone with God, as it were, I feel the heavy chain that I've forged myself, slung across my shoulders. I fully expect to feel it until my last breath. I do expect it to be finally lifted then, and only then, and I guess that's what passes for "faith" for me. Well, says somewhere that it only has to be as big as a mustard seed, so there...

Now sometimes, for little whiles, I can forget that the chain's there. When I'm watching my son raptly sponging up some science program on TV. When I'm listening to my daughter sing like an angel in her high school choir. When I'm busting my butt at the office. When I'm patrolling center field & hoping for every batter to hit the ball my way so I can have the challenge of tracking it down. Whenever I'm with my wife -- because she accepts me. I'm willing to consider that perhaps all of these things are in some way God's doing, perhaps as some divine preview that He's given me.

I think if I stitch enough of those times together, and fill in the gaps between them by doing good things to care for those I love, and for total strangers, I'll be able to drag this chain to somewhere, maybe at God's feet, where I can dump it someday. When I think how much bleaker outcomes there could be than this, I can't really complain or brood on it any more than this right here. If that even makes sense...

I've got some thoughts on your posts, DNM and GO, but have to get ready for work so will come back when I have time. I wanted to post real quick the emails that have been going on this morning - it looks like DH is back in conflict:


My response:

Am I doing OK?

I know what you mean. I get so angry at myself when I think about what I did. Even learning why affairs happen - learning about needs and boundaries and EP's - still doesn't take that anger away. Knowing all of what I've learned, I still can't quite give myself a satisfactory answer to why didn't I stop? Why didn't I know better? So I feel like - no, I know my answers to DH aren't satisfactory either. I just got lost and I couldn't find my way anymore.


Even knowing that, knowing that the Dr. H says we're all "hard-wired" to commit affairs, it still doesn't always stop me from beating myself up for what I did. I want to take it all back. How could I have ever thought that OM was better at meeting my needs than DH? The relationship I had with OM was based on lies. He pursued a married woman. I allowed myself to be pursued because it felt good. I liked the attention. He never knew the real "me" any more than I knew the real "him". I never told him about my abortion, never even told him that I smoke, never told him about anything negative about me. Why, I presented myself like I was the greatest thing since sliced bread! I didn't present all of myself to him and the whole time I knew it, it was like not being comfortable in my skin when I was with him, but the attention was so intoxicating that I wouldn't dwell on that. Deep down I knew he'd never leave his wife for me, and deep down I knew I didn't want to leave DH for him...he'd never be able to take care of me like DH has done for half his life, because the OM was fundamentally selfish. And I was selfish too, don't get me wrong! But I think back to how it started, how the OM would talk to me about his marriage problems (sooo typical, I could vomit!) and they were all focused on his needs, what he wanted, and if I'd ended up with him it would be the same way. I remember the last contact I had with him when he called me in January - how he started whining about all his problems, not taking responsibility for anything that was "wrong" with him, and begging me to get DH to leave him alone. I was so stupid not to see what a ridiculous excuse for a man he is. And in the process, I made myself into a ridiculous excuse for a human being, wife, mother, and woman.


And there, to me, is one of my sticking points. DH's forgiveness matters more to me than anyone else's, even God's. I know that's not how I should feel as a Christian, but there it is. Maybe it is because DH's forgiveness would be more tangible to me that God's is. We talked some last night, I did what DNM suggested and sat down and talked to him about my day. It had stuck with me from his email about how I was maybe worried about what other people think, and I realized that that wasn't true. I told him I didn't care about what other people thought of me - the only person whose opinion of me mattered was his. I know, that ultimately my own opinion of myself matters too, but right now I can't focus on that.



That's amazing, GO...and maybe that's exactly right. God gives us a memory for a reason, which is why "forgiving and forgetting" is so impossible for us mere humans. And it's not that He forgives and forgets either - He just chooses not to hold our sins against us. I guess the goal is to emulate Him by not holding our own sins against ourselves. Separate the sin from the sinner, the action from the person. But it sure is hard to do that.

I've been reading a great book, From Shame to Grace, by Lewis Smedes. It talks about shame vs. guilt. How shame is feeling bad about WHO we are, while guilt is feeling bad about what we've DONE. That actions don't necessarily make us who we are. Along the same lines I've been reading Every Thought Captive by Jerusha Clark, which is written towards women, but gets into destructive patterns of thinking and how we can learn to regulate our thought life.

Of course reading is great, but application...don't misunderstand, the books are wonderful and have a lot of excellent advice, but I can still read through a chapter and think, "That's great, but as for me, I'm still a (fill in the blank with your choice of nasty descriptors)."


I thought of that when you talked about wearing your chain. I have a chain of my own. And at the point DH and I are at, it's difficult for me not to feel its weight constantly. I used to love my job, and be able to lose myself in it. Now I barely have my head on straight here. I spend most of the workday on these boards reading and digesting information, seeking inspiration. When I get home, seeing DH again reminds me of that chain, and his withdrawal from me makes it heavier and heavier...every night he doesn't kiss me goodnight is another weight. Every morning he doesn't say goodbye is another weight. Every time he won't meet my eyes or look at me is another weight. Every time the girls hug him or tell him they love him is another weight. Even each time the girls hug me and tell me they love me and what a good mommy I am is another weight. I want to get to the point where I can forget about the weight of that chain, the weight of what I've done for at least a little while. I want to see DH light up when he sees me come into a room. I want to see his smile again. I want to see him smiling at me.

I believe we have the tools to make it there, but the journey is just so hard and so long. I told him last night that I had made my decision and that was to not give up on him. He means that much to me.

yay! I texted him and asked if he wanted to have lunch w/me today, he texted back no b/c he needed to be @ home waiting on a delivery. So I said I would probably come home for lunch then, I could stop & bring us something. He said OK, he was kind of hungry since he'd been up since 2 am. So, yay!

BTW, I asked last night about coaching with the Harleys - he's on the fence, said he didn't know. I asked if he minded if I set up a session for me and he said no, I didn't have to ask. I told him that I believed that having his agreement on things was important and $200 was a big chunk of change...anyway I said I'd be setting something up and would let him know when it was so if he wanted to join in he would be welcome.

WPG,

The thing about being forgiven for anything is that for it to have any affect on the one that is forgiven, the forgiveness must be accepted.

If you look at the song you quoted above, it points out a very important piece of what it means to be forgiven by God. It isn't that He simply forgives our debt, but rather that He PAID our debt in full Himself and credited it to our account.

We were in bondage to our sins and what we had not just become but what we had really been all along. We were being held captive by our human nature and doing what WE believed we had the right and entitlement to do. He did not just agree to let those things slide, but rather paid the ransom so that we might be set free from those very things that prevented us from obeying Him.

True repentance does not merely imply a change in the way we act. It isn't just no longer doing the things we once did but coming to an understanding that the things we did were not justified by anything we might have attributed them to or to them. Real repentance is a change in the way we think and it is the change in our thinking that leads us to act differently.

So if we have truly been forgiven by God, we haven't just had our debts wiped clean; that debt has been paid in full, just not by us. The ledger now has as it's only entry the payment made on our behalf by the one to whom we owed the real debt to begin with. We don't just begin with a clean slate but with a clean nature as well.

Forgiveness by other people takes longer at times because they are under no obligation to cancel the debt we owe them. This is why Dr Harley talks of Just Compensation and not just unmerited forgiveness in cases of betrayal. It becomes up to us to supply the payment our spouse needs from us so that our debt might be paid in full. If they choose to vanquish any part of the debt it is entirely their choice and until they wipe the books clean it is up to us to continue paying the debt off until it can be credited as paid in full. Once the forgiveness is offered, it still remains up to us to accept it before it has any real affect on us.

As long as the one we wronged is willing to accept our payments, it means we can continue to pay down the debt until they either forgive the remainder or we know the debt has been paid entirely. Considering our vows of faithfulness until death, that gives us a long time to work off the debt we owe.

Mark

Mark, thank you for the insightful post!

And that's one hurdle right there - I have to come to accept God's forgiveness. Believe it. Trust it. Trust that He knows my character and condition of my heart better than I do. That He is able to separate the sin from the sinner, where we as humans get bogged down and often define ourselves by our actions.

And that's where creating - and holding fast to - our boundaries and EPs fits in, right? Where the guiding principles of marriage fit in - recognizing where we screwed up before, understanding why and how we screwed up, and changing our mindset. Leading our hearts.

Do you think, though, that sometimes our actions can change our thinking? Sort of the idea of "fake it till you make it"? Like doing the Love Dare - the 40 days of focusing on loving your spouse, even if in the beginning you're having to practically stand on your head to avoid saying something negative. Or then again, maybe the change in thinking still has to come first - the change in thinking being "I'm committing to such-and-such" and then following through, even though at first our actions might not be exactly spot-on.




As long as DH will accept my payments, I will gladly do all I can to pay my debt to him. I think that by doing that, by working to be the best wife and mother that I can, it will help me in some way to begin forgiving myself, and help me to fully accept the forgiveness that God gives.

And even if DH never forgives me, even if we end up not making it, then I still have to work on me.

We actually had a nice lunch together and I am feeling good...I'd sent him a website of funny ringtones that he was looking at when I got home, and we sat together and talked about some things that are going on with my parents and my brother, and he listened and offered his input and oh! it was nice! I sent him a text when I got back from work thanking him for having lunch with me and that I enjoyed spending time w/him.

Now this weekend I expect to be helping him drag downed trees all over the yard...lol not my idea of fun but I'm gonna get out there and work by his side!

Wulffpack, has it ever occured to you that perhaps that really is all there is to life?

I mean that we get to share our life with someone is really as good as it gets. You working with your H side by side, is really what it is all about girl.

God Bless,

JL

WPG,

The thing to remember about God's forgiveness is that HE paid the debt already. He offers forgiveness based not on what we have done or promise to do but based entirely on His willingness to give us the chance to try.

As for the fake it till you make it thing...

The way feelings follow actions has to do with changing our attitudes based on the results that come from doing what is right. We DO the right things so that we can feel the benefit of having done the right thing. The repentance part of it is KNOWING and acknowledging that the way we DID things in the past was NOT right and now we will do the right things because we want to do them right.

See, when we sin, we think we are doing what is right. That's the whole point of sin. We BELIEVE we have the right to decide what is and what is not sin. We define sin and right and wrong in our own terms. This relates to all sin and not just adultery. We feel we are entitled to our own choices based on how we feel rather than on what God requires.

As it relates to marriage and affairs, this means that we believed we were right to do things that either we could prevent from affecting our spouse or we could do things that were right for us but wrong for our spouse. That is the myth that leads to an affair, that we even have the right to choose based on what we feel at the time rather than on a clear view of what is right and what is wrong.

Infidelity is always wrong. When asked if they believe that to be true, 90% of people all over the world would say that they accept that premise. Even in societies where polygamy (more than one wife) and polygyny (more than one husband) are practiced, adultery is considered wrong. Yet some estimates in our own society suggest that between 60% and 80% of all marriages are affected by infidelity. To me, this says that people don't really believe what they say they do because they believe right and wrong are situational rather than clearly defined concepts.

What happens when we start to do something wrong is that we first redefine it as not wrong or not AS wrong as something else we find more disagreeable. We tell ourselves that we are entitled to have this opinion based on what we feel at the time. We turn what even we would say as wrong into something that isn't wrong because we haven't yet crossed some line we have said is where we would be wrong. The problem with this sort of thing is that when we do it, we are taking upon ourselves the decision as to where that line should be drawn rather than leaving it where it really belongs.

We put up walls of lies and secrecy, not around our relationship with our spouse but between us. We open windows between ourselves and this other person who is triggering the reward center in our brain and what we need to do is to reverse this process entirely. We need the walls to be AROUND the marriage and the windows to our spouse to remain open at all times.

The change in thinking needs to be that we will never allow that to take place. We need to keep the walls of protection not around ourselves to prevent our spouse from finding out what we are doing, but around the marriage so that others can't enter into the same kind of relationship we are to have with our spouse.

When we start down the road to an affair, we have already decided against protecting the marriage when we left the windows open. The walls of secrecy we build are to protect us from the consequences of what we have chosen to do and so by admitting that there might be negative consequences of what we are doing, we are actually agreeing that what we are doing is wrong.

This is how we commit any sin, but cheating on our spouse is especially obvious when we see the results of having cheated and the destruction of the person we promised to love, honor and protect all the days of our lives.

EPs are what we need to do to protect ourselves from what we have identified as weakness within ourselves. They are boundaries we construct to stop us from being selfish and following the road to entitlement we once followed. They keep us from being put in a place where only our will and commitment can save us from making the wrong choice because we already know that our will and commitment alone cannot prevent us from committing the same sin again.

You see, God does not require us to change in order that He might pay the price for what we have done. Rather HE paid the price, willingly, knowing that some would accept that as payment for their debt while others would not. For us to be forgiven by God we only need to come to the place of acknowledgment that we did in fact believe we had the right to decide what was right for ourselves. It isn't a feeling that we have been forgiven, but accepting what He has paid as full payment of our debt. It is coming to the understanding that we could never fully pay the debt and that no matter what we might do, the debt would remain unpaid except for His grace and the payment He already made.

Dr Harley's most basic premise is that whatever we do once we are married, it affects our spouse. This can be either a negative effect or a positive one. It either enhances the marriage relationship or diminishes it. If we consider the outcome before we act, then our actions should take this into account for every action and choice that we embark upon. It sometimes requires that we override our feelings and act from what is right and not just what we think is right for us at the moment in time we find ourselves in.

Mark

You know what JL? If that's all there is to life, that's more than enough for me. I'll live my life gladly and will never take DH or my marriage for granted again. I couldn't ask for anything better than to be by his side, to be his partner, for as long as I live.

Thank you Mark - I liked the image of the walls and windows. It reminded me very much of the book I read that was about building hedges around your marriage.


I'm glad He gives us that chance. I need to be a better person. If my marriage doesn't survive this storm (and some days I'm more hopeful than others), then I still need to do it for me. I need to do it for my children. My behavior was in no way a good example for them. I can't stop them from making mistakes in life, but I can give them an example of how to do what's right, to build boundaries and how to love and respect their husbands. And I will love and respect him whether he makes the choice to be here or not.


The Christian counselor we've been seeing has said something very similar, about how feelings can be unreliable and can influence attitude in a negative way - but that if we begin with our actions, they influence our attitude and eventually our feelings follow suit.


Thank you, Mark - that was a very helpful explanation for me.

DH is back in withdrawal again. He's here, but he's not here, KWIM? We're still doing stuff together as a family and he's not pushing me away when I try to cuddle with him on the couch, but he doesn't reciprocate. He did reject my advances for SF Friday night, and I haven't tried again nor has he shown any interest. We talk about stuff about the house and financial stuff but that's about it.

Regardless I started working on a gift for him. I'd read one another post about the compliments A-Z thing - I went and bought a small journal and have started working on that - making a little book for him of not just compliments, but things that remind me of him - songs, places, things, etc. Our anniversary is next month so originally thought about giving it to him then, but may give it to him before. Have another idea for the anniversary - I want to buy him a new wedding ring and give it to him while we're away. We're going to the mountains and we'll probably do some hiking - I thought about giving it to him while we're there, I don't know, up on a mountaintop or something....he may not want to wear it and may not accept it...good idea or bad idea?

I'm going to go ahead and try to set up coaching with the Harleys this week, for me at least. I have one more appointment with our counselor, he'd suggested leaving one more appointment on the books in case DH decided he wanted to join me. But I agree with DH, counseling - or at least our counselor's approach - is not really helping. The counselor feels like DH is sitting on the fence, he's stuck, and he is comfortable where he's at. He said it's not even a matter right now of DH trusting me, it's that DH has to decide to trust in God, that whatever happens that God is strong enough to bring him through it. He (the counselor) had heard of the Harleys' work, although he just mentioned HNHN...I asked if it would be helpful for us to work through it and he said it wouldn't do any good if DH did not want to apply it, or something to that effect.

I just need to somehow deal with the feelings I have of rejection. Focus on the fact that he's still here, he hasn't left, at least physically.

EDIT TO ADD: No kiss goodbye this morning. He allows me to be close to him but doesn't initiate anything. If I go to kiss him, he keeps his face turned from me. Folds his hands on his chest and keeps them there tight if I'm curled up next to him in bed. It's so frustrating, I know I brought this on myself but I can't help feeling hurt. It's like trying to love a rock.

I'm still working on my A-Z book. Both DD's saw me working on it yesterday, they were so funny. DD #1 asked if I was making Daddy an alphabet book because he can't remember his alphabet. DD #2 said matter-of-factly, "Oh, yeah, I forget my alphabet all the time." DD #2 almost spoiled the suprise, DH was telling her that if she'd eat all her dinner he'd give her a suprise, and she says, "OOH! Like Mommy is making a suprise for you?" I told her shh! and whispered that it was a secret!

Told him I had meeting scheduled today and may not be able to get home for lunch. Not looking forward to said meetings as I actually have to focus on work, otherwise I'd be doing the same thing I do every day and obsessing over this forum and trying to find a way to help him/us.

FYI - our email addresses at work changed over the weekend - I couldn't change my work email before. OM never emailed me at work but now that's just one more way contact is impossible.

I'm looking forward to going away our anniversary weekend, but a big part of me is afraid he'll back out and decide not to go.

We did watch one of the shows we regularly DVR last night and made snarky comments about it like we've always done, we go all "Mystery Science Theater" on it and DH is a hoot.

I got out yesterday and worked in the yard, helping clean up some limbs that had gotten knocked down when DH was cutting trees. He had actually gone to get a part for one of the cars and when he came home I was out there working. Both DD's had been out with me earlier but both got tired and quit (DD#1 quit first, she had to wash her hand about 3 times b/c they got sticky with sap, then at one point she disappeared inside the house and reappeared with a popsicle - sat down and watched me and DD#2 work - DH said she was going to grow up to be a boss, lol!)

I miss him.

I really like the wedding ring idea wulfpack girl, I thought of doing that too.

Too early in my recovery for that kind of thing, but its definetly something to think about.

I catch up on your thread now and again, you seem to be making great progress. Whats your secret?!!

Like they said its a rollercoaster of emotions and you take the good with the bad. Do you sometimes hot a brick wall and feel like giving up? I have those moments.

Best of luck to you, Hitch

Nothing much new to report. Just tired and drained. I wasn't expecting DH to come home so early from work today and I was half out in the garage and he overheard me gumping back at my mom, who'd come over to watch the kids. Mom was asking me about DH's schedule b/c they wanted to go see my grandma (in a nursing home) this week and did DH have an appointment tomorrow? I groused that I had no idea, we didn't communicate about that stuff and he pipes up from behind me, "I'm sitting right here." So I turned around and asked him if he had an appointment tomorrow and he said yes (with his IC). Said goodbye and left for work. Feel awful he heard me being b*itchy this morning. I'm sure it was a LB for him but lately I have been on the recieving end of so many LB's that I just feel sick.

I know he's got every reason to treat me like dirt after what I did to him. I just feel like he's never going to recover from the hurt I caused him, no matter what I do. We lived together more like roommates before all this happened, we weren't trying to meet each other's needs before. If he's not willing to engage in MB with me, I get to the point where that's all I see for the future. It's not just the lack of affection, attention/admiration, and SF. It's things like how he's stopped doing "extra" stuff around the house to help me out - helping with the laundry, for example. He still cooks, but we used to take turns, one of us cleaning up the dinner mess while the other gave the kids a bath. Now I do both, without saying a word of complaint, while he sits on the couch. There's no UA time since watching TV together does not count. The only things we talk about are spending money. I used to complain about his spending when I was managing all the finances but now that he's pretty much taken that over I don't say anything negative, if he wants to spend money on something then so be it.

I'm so frustrated because I KNOW we could have a great marriage. I know that it will take him time to heal from what I did and I understand that - and I understand I can't dictate how long that process takes. I guess it's just this feeling I have that he's not so much healing but sitting on the fence with one foot in and one foot out - or like he said in his email, one foot out the door. He may not want to leave but he doesn't really want to stay, either. And I keep trying to do all these things to meet his needs, but because he won't give me any feedback I am just flailing around. I just want *something*, you know? A hug out of the middle of nowhere. Him to wrap his arm around me while we sit on the couch. Him to curl up behind me in bed. A random smile, or a text for no reason other than he was thinking about me.

Just got my response back from MB about coaching sessions. Will most likely end up taking the session tomorrow evening. Any advice/suggestions from those of you who've had a session before? It will probably be just me - I doubt DH will want to participate. Just curious as to how these sessions are structured.

EDIT TO ADD - Have session scheduled w/Jennifer tomorrow evening.

lol Hitch, I was posting while you were - takes me forever to post here at work, people keep coming in and out of my office (it's like they think I actually work!!!)

Yeah, I do feel like I hit a brick wall. A lot. As you can see from the post I just left, I feel like I am currently banging my head against one now. We're basically roommates. Granted, one roommate tries to be affectionate to the other and tell him that she loves him, but the other roommate is just civil and tries to avoid her.

It's funny that you say I seem to be making progress...I guess it is one step forward, two steps back. Sometimes for me progress is hard to see. I couldn't see that DH was in conflict earlier (last week) until some of the other posters pointed it out to me. Maybe it's just that I want progress faster.

Read your post earlier - know you are on that rollercoaster but I am glad you are feeling good!!! Obviously something you are doing is getting thru to your H!!!

Hiya Wulffpack

God this is bloody awful!! I know EXACTLY how your feeling. 1 step forward and then 2 steps back and then you have a good day and everything is forgotten.

I know what you mean about the room mates thing. I hate that. It has been 7 months now for me and I am reaching my limit.

If you knew back when you met OM, what you know now, how different would things be?!! I am almost like a nun at the moment, if a man even looks at me I run the other way..

Its funny what you say about "something", I was telling SH all about the fact that my H brought me a cake, the first thing he did for me 5 months after discovery day. SH said, yes but doesn't it feel great and I was like yeah! lol, you gotta laugh, a cake...but it was "something".

I have had a few sessions with Steve Harley, and it has helped. I really set up the sessions with SH to try and get H on board, his first session he went quiet but his 2nd session he got really angry afterwards, but whatever it did it got us talking, even to conflict.

They gave you a plan each session, and my last session was about crossing the SF barrier and try to open up some kind of affection, so I guess I have done that one...

Jessitaylor has given me lots of good advice and to be honest, that has moved things forward a bit. Telling him I love him and will fight for the marriage and that I am not giving up. He seemed to respond a little to that.

This is tough, keep going, will keep an eye on your thread.

Hooray! This will be a really good step in your recovery. Jennifer has a great deal of experience working with spouses who don't want to work with her. I'm sure she'll help you. If it's possible for your spouse to be home while you're having your session, that would be a good idea. Typically you won't want him in the room with you -- too much of a chance of Love Busters -- but there might be some chance he's willing to talk to her, and that could bring about some amazing changes.

It did for me.

Definitely, Hitch. If I could do it all over again, I'd run screaming in the opposite direction. And not just from the OM before the A started - I'd run screaming from him when I was 18 and met him the first time. At 18, if I'd known that being involved with OM would someday ruin my marriage with the man I would truly fall in love with, someone who is a million times the man that OM is or ever was or ever could be, I would have waited for DH to come into my life. It's funny you say that about being like a nun, I do the same thing. I get very uncomfortable talking to the men I work with now, I am definitely not as friendly or as open here at work as I was in the past. I do not like recieving compliments from men. I'd be much more comfortable if they'd just ignore me, lol...

I've thought a lot about quitting my job this year - and especially recently - but don't know how we'd manage financially. And I know it wouldn't be a real solution because I'd end up resenting it - when my head is on straight, I DO enjoy my work. I have a pretty cool job and if I'm actually applying myself I can be good at it. And I think a lot of my unhappiness at work these days just stems from everything else - it's not like I never had frustrations at my job, but things don't "roll off my back" like they used to - plus I used to come home and vent to DH about my day - something that came out early in our FR was that he'd always hated it when I did that, but he also came to understand that I needed it. Now that I know he hates me venting about work, I try to avoid it, which leaves me with no one to vent to. And consequently, it may end up LBing him anyway because if I DON'T talk about my day then he may think I am not being O&H...ahhh, the conundrum!!!!

When DD#2 was born I quit working FT and essentially became a SAHM, working from home teaching college classes online. It was tough and I struggled with not having any real "adult" contact during the day, plus I carried the bulk of the housework and childcare for the girls (which was extremely tough at first, they are less than a year and a half apart, so had the whole "2 under 2" thing, 2 in diapers, etc) and ended up doing my work late at night after everyone had gone to bed. It was not unusual for me to be grading papers at 1-2:00 in the morning and then up the next morning with the girls (or throughout the night with DD#2 as I exclusively breastfed her). Once they got older it was easier, but I ended up getting burnt out on the online classes. Just got sick of dealing with them. And we ran up a LOT of credit card debt during the 4 years I worked from home, it was not uncommon for us to put groceries and essentials on the credit card because we would run short of money mid-month (and honestly, I never did as good a job managing the finances as DH does now - he's a whiz at it, really). But I have to wonder, if I'd never gone back to work FT, would I have had an A? No way of knowing. I can't blame work, I can't blame FB, I can only blame myself.




I'm glad that I'm moving ahead with the coaching. I'm hopeful for a good action plan that I can implement. DH will be home tomorrow during the session. I've sent him the info and I am not going to mention it again. It will be up to him as to whether he wants to participate or not.

Here's my thing - I'm stuck on the LB$ inventory. In truth, DH has not been making efforts to meet my ENs so he hasn't made any deposits into my LB$. I've had to make efforts to protect DH's balance in my LB$ so that his engaging in LB behavior or his being in withdrawal doesn't affect it. So reading over the questions, I almost feel like my responses are going to look schizo. Does that make sense at all? Like putting "Definitely agree completely" to a question like, "I find myself spending quite a bit of time thinking of ways to make (DH) happy" or "I tend to overlook (DH)'s mistakes" - I DO spend a lot of time on thinking of ways to make him happy, I DO tend to overlook his mistakes, but that doesn't mean my LB$ is overflowing...ah, heck, does that make sense at all??? I mean, I know if he did it for me, I'd be so far into the hole it wouldn't be funny...I know he doesn't sit around and think about ways to make me happy, and thinking about that makes me sad. I know I shouldn't think about how DH would answer the questions, but it's still there in the back of my mind.

I need to quit overthinking it and just do it.

Just do the thing as honestly as you can. If you're schizo with your answers, that's normal. Your Giver and your Taker are in control of various areas of your life. And that's what Jennifer wants to know: when and where is the Giver in control? What about the Taker?


Do you really know that? You don't. You think you know, but you don't. And that is the heart of a Disrespectful Judgment: thinking you know what someone else is thinking, or thinking you know better than they do. The chances are good those kinds of judgments are creeping into how you deal with your husband.

You're right, DNM...I am just feeling down today. It's been a long day, DH is working the night shift tonight and I wish he was here. Things haven't been good since he went away for work Labor Day week - he's been withdrawn (but for those few blips of conflict) ever since. I know I am just making assumptions about how he feels about me based on how frustrated and lonely I feel. It's just so hard to keep myself in a positive mindset. After what I did, he's probably doing the best he can right now and I should be grateful. I guess I tend to try to stay out of his way because I *think* I know what he's thinking...Argh...just not a good day.

I worked on my book for him tonight. I'd hoped to finish it and give it to him before we go away next weekend for our anniversary but it's taking me a lot longer than I thought. Since he's out working I may work on it some more tonight. I sat down with DD #2 and showed it to her, she wanted me to read her some of the poems and she likes looking at the pictures I've drawn. I'm going to get out to the craft store at some point before I give it to him and get a little wooden box to put it in, stain it and paint his initials on the top so he has a place to keep it. I called the jeweler yesterday and got his ring size, luckily they had a record in their computer from when we got his ring resized. Maybe it's too soon to get him a new ring, though. Not too soon for me, but too soon for him. He may not appreciate the gesture right now, I just don't know.

I did ask if he wanted to go run with me Saturday morning and he seemed interested...so we'll see what happens.

Typical male most important ENs:

* Sexual Fulfillment
* Recreational Companionship
* Physical Attractiveness
* Domestic Support
* Admiration

It's not 100% with every man, but usually the top two are the most important and, as the Intimate Emotional Needs for a man, typically the best way to deposit the most Love Units quickly. Your idea of going for a run with him is great.

If my wife made me a scrapbook I'd say thank you, but it wouldn't do much for her account in my Love Bank. If I did that for her, she'd be thrilled.

DH will not be home tonight for my session with Jennifer. I was hopeful, but he's working the night shift again.

I didn't post this earlier but he bought an extremely expensive (like over $10K) piece of yard equipment yesterday. He'd been talking about it but I didn't think he was at the point of buying it. At 5:50 PM I was informed they were delivering it today. I just smiled and went along with it. What else could I do? We just refinanced the house to pay down a lot of debt and now I'm afraid we'll end up in the same situation again. When I managed the finances before I tended to complain about his spending, and back when we were talking to each other it came out that that was pretty much a LB for him (of course this was pre-MB, so he pretty much said he didn't like it, we didn't have the MB lingo then). I know it's the truth, as I didn't have problems spending money to augment my shoe collection, but I'd complain when he wanted to buy something for one of the cars - and if I didn't complain, then I went into "pout" mode and became cold towards him, all behaviors I am trying to avoid now. DH owns 3 cars, all sportscars - one a classic, one he bought from his uncle's estate, and a brand-spanking new one he bought this summer. I don't really care what car he drives (as far as I'm concerned a car gets you from point A to point B). I want to avoid LBing him but I can't help but worry about the spending. It's a problem that was present pre-A (and actually even before we got married), one I know that could be managed with POJA, but he has not seemed interested in following POJA (or any other MB principles) right now.

I hope Jennifer can give me some steps that may help to get him on board. I'm really struggling right now.

So do you think I should just can the idea? I thought it would be a good way of showing admiration, but maybe I'm off base. It's not really a scrapbook, I don't have pictures of us, I was kind of doing the compliments A-Z thing, things that describe him, if that makes sense.

According to the EN questionnaire, he indicated his top 5 needs were:
Openness & Honesty
Domestic Support
Financial Support
Family Commitment
Admiration

SF and RC don't appear on there at all. Generally those are the two things that I am a failure at engaging him in no matter what I do. His comment under RC on the questionnaire was "We always seem to do the things she likes." Yet when I ask him what he'd like to do, encourage him to make suggestions, he says "I don't know." I can't guess what he'd enjoy doing. If I try to initiate SF, he either doesn't respond or outright rejects me either verbally or by moving away. Conversation I can sometimes get, but it's not "intimate" conversation. I can talk about my feelings all day long, but he rarely opens up to me anymore, other than those occasional emails and then a retreat back into withdrawal. We talk about the house, the kids, etc.

My efforts at O&H are not filling his LB$ at all. I am trying just sitting down and talking to him about my day like you suggested DNM, and he'll sit there agreeably enough. I let him know what I'm doing, he's got all the passwords for cell/voice mail/email (I even sent him the login info and password for the new email system at work).

I feel like I can't do anything right. I just wish he'd tell me what was working and what was not, what I could do better.

Well pretty sure I screwed up again. I missed a text from DH this afternoon, he texted me about 4 asking what I wanted to do w/DD#1 during DD#2's guitar lesson, did I want him to bring her to work or come pick her up. I had left my phone in my desk and had stopped in one of my coworker's offices (female) to chat. I didn't check the phone till about 10 to 5, I was actually going to text him and ask if he still wanted me to pick DD#1 up. When I saw his text I said I was on my way, I'd already planned to go pick her up so that's what I did. He didn't acknowledge me when I came in to get her so I just took her on home.

Got home w/DD#1 and saw meat thawing in the sink. He got home shortly and I sat down and talked to him a bit about my day, asked him how his went. Knew he'd had IC today and had been debating not going back anymore, so I asked him. He said no, he wasn't going back. I asked if he wanted to try anything, mentioned I had my first session w/Jennifer tonight. He said just to let him know how it goes. I'd asked what he wanted to do w/the meat, what did he want for supper. He replied that he was going to ask if I wanted to p/u something or wanted him to p/u something and I said he didn't tell me. Said he wanted to know what I wanted to do w/DD#1 first. I apologized for not getting the text and said I just didn't check my phone b/c I wasn't expecting him to text me (DJ, I know). He said "Because I'm not OM" and walked in the house. I follow, he's in the bathroom but I slammed the door anyway (LB) and ran upstairs to the bedroom and just laid down in the bed and cried. He came up in a few minutes to get ready for work and mentioned that there was chicken salad that my mom had brought over. I went back downstairs and into the garage to smoke and shortly he came out, said goodbye and left.

All out of tears for now. Threw the journal I was working on in the trash. It won't mean anything to him. No, he's not OM. He's so much more, so much better than OM. All I want to do is love him and I just want him to love me too. Called mom and cried about it, I know I shouldn't because there really isn't anything she can do. She hurts for me because I am her child but she can't help me with this. She said maybe I should cancel or postpone our trip next weekend. I've been looking forward to going away w/DH ever since we made the reservations. I don't know what to do anymore.

I guess I should get the journal out of the trash. Maybe I'll just leave it for him and tell him it is a work in progress. It may not put much in his LB$ but at this point what do I have to lose?

Session is in an hour and a half. I just need help.

I'm having trouble offering any further advice. Your thread is causing me too many triggers. I apologize; I'm going to bow out for now. I need to focus on the jobs I've landed to try to get us out of financial trouble, and meeting my wife's emotional needs as best I can while working 60+ hours a week over the next month.

Best of luck. You don't have anything to lose by giving it to him. And even though Affection (I'd view such a journal as Affection) might not do a lot for him, it can be SOMETHING. And it's tangible when you're not around.

Out for now. Peace.

I completely understand, DNM - thank you for all the advice you've given me so far. I wish you and your wife the very best in your recovery.

I just got off the phone with Jennifer and she is awesome! You are right, she gives you a solid plan to work with and it is sooo much different from the other counseling we've had. I feel much more motivated now after having a pretty lousy last few days. Will update the thread when I have more time.

Hiya Wulffpack

Hope your all pumped up after your session with Jennifer! Whats is she like? I purposely chose Steve as I thought my H would prefer a guy. Although he doesn't seem to like Steve very much!!!!

Just a thought on something you mentioned earlier, about your H bringing up OM. That would have been a perfect time for you to bring up your thoughts and feelings about OM.

This is on my list to comunicate to my H, if you read Jim Flints latest post on my thread. Basically Jim said to me that I need to tell my H that he is the love of my life and I will never forgive OM if I lose him because of the A...because anyone would hate to feel that they are second choice.

Maybe you can bring it up with him again, e.g I was thinking about what you said yesterday and the thought of OM makes my skin crawl as he could cost me you....or however you say it....

Anyway just a thought.....

Please your feeling more motivated, your going to need it!

Hitch

WPG,

Decisions made based on how we feel in the moment seldom turn out to be good decisions when we look back on them from a point in the future. This goes for the choice to let OM close to you, slam a door or throw away something you have been working on out of devotion and care over a momentary (and that is all it is) breakdown in an otherwise upward trend in your recovery process.

He won't appreciate it any way...Really? You know this how? This isn't just a response to his withdrawal of the moment and his own DJ regarding OM is it?

WPG, I'm sure you have heard recovery called a roller coaster. Up...Down...Up...Down... Long slow climb followed by a sudden drop that takes your breath away and causes you to doubt that it will not result in your demise...

We get so impatient as we make that slow climb upward. We want to be at the top, to reach the goal, to stand on the top of the world. Of course when we get to the top we find that it is really just part of the journey and once there it is inevitable that we will begin that screaming decent downward that causes us to fear that we might be swallowed up by the Earth itself as we hurtle toward the depths.

Emotions change, WPG. In recovery they might change from minute to minute. Try to mot change your life because your feelings have changed and avoid irrevocable actions and words when your mind is being flooded by emotions.

What he said about you not seeing his text message because it wasn't from OM was meant to hurt you. He succeeded. It was a bad choice on his part, I think, but he was probably triggering all over himself by the time you saw it and responded to him.

But just guessing here that the reason the cut was so deep was because there was at least a notion of truth to it and that much of what you felt was not simply anger at him, but anger at yourself.

And then you felt horrible and worthless and believed that you were both and nothing you could ever do would be good enough again...

So why would he even care about the stupid book? Why would it have any meaning to him at all?

I always got the feeling the book was about your own feelings anyway...

Doing things that show care and love don't have to be in response to anything. They can be all on their own. Even stuff he might not fully appreciate can be a labor of love and a demonstration of your thoughtfulness and care replacing the thoughtlessness and careless acts of the affair.

And the long slow climb begins again...

Mark

JC was great - I actually feel like I have some concrete steps now rather than stumbling around in the dark. She said that I've been in "sort of" a Plan A that for now I am to continue, concentrating on avoiding LBs and protecting him from my behaviors that cause him pain. She guided me on some ways to try and get DH on board with MB and coached me through writing a letter to him, which I left for him last night along with Dr. H's basic concepts DVD at her recommendation (luckily since I'd gotten the HNHN course I already had it!). She spent a lot of time with me and I really appreciated it and am trying to put her coaching to work. I plan on talking to her again.

Hitch, that's hitting the nail on the head - DH feels like he's my second choice. I think what makes it even harder is that this wasn't someone I met and had an A with, but someone from my past - so he feels like I've carried a torch for this person my entire life. JC explained it pretty well, that everyone you've had a relationship with has a LB$, and even if it lays dormant for 20 years it's still there, which is one of the reasons I fell into an A, was my failure to recognize that, and to recognize that ANYONE you've had any kind of relationship in the past (dating or whatever) is dangerous because that LB$ is still there.


Thanks Mark - you are right, of course. I behaved stupidly and childishly not just yesterday, but in a lot of my last posts on this forum. I recognize that a lot of it was because I was upset over that big purchase he made, yet did I say anything to him about it? Nope. Sat there and said, essentially, "That's nice, dear." I have to learn how to express my hurt in a more positive manner than acting like a big baby. And that's exactly what I did yesterday, slamming doors, crying to mommy, throwing stuff away in a tantrum.


Yes, the book is probably more about my feelings towards him. I just wanted to do something, I wanted to give him something concrete, you know, instead of sending flowers or big huge gifts. I have a hard time really hitting on the exact ways to fill his needs since he doesn't give me the feedback that I'd love to have. Whether he appreciates it of not, I got it out of the trash, finished the pages that I'd been working on, and gave it to him with a note that said it was a work in progress, and asked him to please give it back when he was done looking at it. Left it by the computer in the garage. It was still sitting there this morning and looked untouched. It's in his court, I can't make him look at it or feel anything. Maybe the book is just all about letting him see my heart and he can take it for what it's worth.



Yeah, you got me. When he brings up the OM like that for me it's like he's saying that I think the OM is better than him, that DH is my second choice (as stated above). I start kicking myself for what I did all over again and I just get to feeling so helpless and yet so furious at the same time. I remember how I was like freaking Pavlov's dog with the texts and FB messages from the OM. And it does make me feel like a worthless wh*re again. And then I'm angry, because I want to shake him and say "Can't you see what I am trying to do here???" Yet at the same time knowing how perfectly justified he is in feeling the way he does...after all, I not just betrayed him with an A, I continued to lie about it. Naturally he would wonder if I continue lying about it (or anything else) now.

Of course now when I get a message from DH, it lights me up. Of course with the emails, there's this funny mix of dread and excitement because in the second before I open that email, I don't know where he's at on that roller coaster today. Same thing with going home after work. Excited to see him, terrified of the rejection. It was just my bad luck to get sidetracked at work yesterday and not have my phone with me. Yeah, any time I make a mistake, I feel like I can't do anything right.

JC told me some ways I can respond more effectively when he says things like that. She said I should probably keep a cheat sheet in my purse and look at it in the last moments before getting out of the car and heading into the house.

Climbing again.

Hi WPG -

I have nothing to add for you except to emphasize how awesome Jennifer is. We counseled with her three years ago, and again for the first half of this year, and I shudder to think of where we'd be without her.

Nothing much new to report - I've been working on my homework assignments from JC. She wanted me to leave DH a letter and the Basic Concepts DVD - basically the letter was to try and pique his interest in MB enough to where he'd watch the DVD, and hopefully he'd be interested enough to get on board for our call this week (tomorrow night). If he got on board, we were to start working on our top 5 EN's and working on writing "I love it when..." statements (I love it when you hold my hand, etc) that give positive, concrete examples of how we like our needs to be met. If he didn't get on board, I was to continue working on identifying LBs and coming up with alternative behaviors to them.

I'm working on the LBs. The DVD has pretty much sat where I left it. I talked to him a little about my session with JC, but he expressed not much more than polite interest.

We're getting geared up for our trip this weekend for our anniversary. I'm excited about it, and also nervous. I really want it to be a special time. I remember when we went to the mountains for our first anniversary and how he got angry (I think it was mainly at me as I was obsessing on how the fuel level light came on in the truck, and wanted to get gas - there may have been something else that set him off but all I remember was my behavior - I know I was being b*tchy about it) and he drove like a bat out of heck up and down the curvy mtn. roads and scared me until by the time we got back to the cabin I was in tears...then he watched a race on TV. The bad times scare me. The whole weekend wasn't like that - we had a lot of fun together (I've got this funny picture of him standing under a boulder looking like he's holding it up with both hands, it's too cute). As much as I try to not remember the bad memories, they are still there. Maybe it's my Taker that wants to call them to my attention from time to time. I don't sit around and dwell on them, but every once in a while when I am upset, something will pop up - that's why I wonder if it's my Taker ("Remember when he did this? What about this?" etc).

We're going someplace different that we've never been together before, no memories. I'm looking for good hiking trails and in particular looking for a trail with a nice romantic spot for a suprise I am planning.

This past weekend was better, things aren't perfect but there are positive signs. I left him my unfinished journal with a note plus the letter JC asked me to write with the DVD on Thursday morning. Thursday afternoon he starts sending me some pretty suggestive text messages (sorry if TMI!!!) and wanting me to come home so maybe something worked...We ended up not going running together Saturday morning but staying in bed and engaging in further exercise of a different nature which is much more fun than running anyday...he worked on the house and I painted the rocking chairs on the porch, so we were at least outside and working on the home even if we weren't right side-by-side. Haven't had a lot of UA time otherwise as the kids have been with us the last 2 weekends...most of our time alone is spent watching TV together, and I know that doesn't count, but if I can't encourage him to do anything else, I'll take snuggling on the couch to watch TV. I think it was Saturday I decided to try out a "thoughtful request" and asked him if he would scratch my back...he obliged and when I laid my head back down on his chest he put his arm around me. For a little while I was in heaven.

I'm not going back to the marriage counselor we were seeing. Had my last appointment last Thursday. DH didn't go this time either. Talked to him a little about the session with JC and her advice to Plan A. He didn't really agree or disagree, but said DH was "fence sitting" and it wasn't fair to me, that he got all the benefits of a relationship without putting himself out there at all. He advised me to push back at DH, use a little bit of my temper when he says things to hurt me (like the comment about the OM after I missed his text). I have to say I don't really agree with his advice in the context of MB. Pushing back and using my temper sounds a lot like LB-ing to me and I am committed to avoiding LBs. It sounded completely contrary to JC's counsel on learning to care for DH.

I'm trying now to show him how excited I am about going away together and how much I am looking forward to it (which is the truth!). Tonight is my last night of teaching (hooray!) and I am more than ready to say goodbye to it and the triggers that it causes DH.

Hey Wullfpack

Good update. I so know what you mean about the bad memories popping up of how the relationship was before the A. I am going through that now with my H. I need to update my post with this as we start to settle into things, and H starts to act normal, triggers happen of how things were before the affair and how unhappy I was. Not sure what the answer is, but I am going to update my post with this. I suppose it is getting the H on board with MB to start to meet our ENs.



It is so strange how MB advice does work, as soon as I started telling my DH that I loved him and wrote him a letter he started to want some bedroom action too...Obviously has something to do with how much we solely love them.



So pleased for you! I am sure it felt like heaven, just shows how much your H does really care.

Best of luck and enjoy your weekend away, have fun and enjoy, leave your worries at home!!

Hitch

We're over a year into recovery. I still feel like the runner-up, and that she only chose me at the time because of our history together and a life so thoroughly entangled with mine.

I feel that way because of how she acted after D-Day. If after my discovery she had immediately gone to no-contact with him, I don't think I'd feel this way. But she persisted in seeing him nearly every day after D-Day until finally going no-contact a month later, and in that time persuaded me of exactly one thing: he was far more important to her than I was.

How does she repair that? I think just time, meeting needs, and living the Policy of Joint Agreement together are working to blunt that pain. Just typing it out, the file starts playing back in my head and I feel the hurt again... but most of the time, that hurt of feeling second-best isn't at the forefront of my mind. Only when something triggers it -- like reading your sentence above -- do I remember that within a minute or two after the memory plays back, I'm going to start feeling the feelings I felt then all over again.

After a while when our former wayward spouses are doing everything right, we betrayed spouses have to work on managing our memories and stopping triggers from wrecking an otherwise perfect recovery. After a while.

WPG, I'm just posting, first of all, to let you know that your thread is what compelled me to finally sign up for the boards.

Your perspective is important for me right now. My FWW is working her tail off to make me happy, and the roller coaster just kills her.

When I have a low day, it breaks her. It breaks her because she knows and accepts that she is responsible for my state.

Your view is important for me because her remorse and apologies bounce off me. When she catches me down, and she breaks down, I immediately go into protection mode. Whatever is going on with me, I can deal with it later, after she is OK.

It's hard sometimes, because she is showing me the pain, the regret, the remorse for her actions, but I just am not yet in the state to absorb that yet.

I am in a state where her attempts to meet my needs now deposit in my LB$ in loads.

She has been reading over the boards with me, has read all of my posts, and all the responses. I did this for me, but I am also sticking to PRH and PJA.

No gesture is to small. Keep your chin up, and don't give in.

Thanks for your replies and support!

Hitch, I read your thread and I know you are struggling right now. I'm sorry the roller coaster is so intense. I think jessi was right-on, thought - maybe your H is coming around and expressing his feelings more honestly - from all the advice I've gotten, it sounds like his Taker coming out. Plan A is very hard - I talked again with JC last night and she got me pumped up for the weekend. Right now it's all about us protecting our H's from our LBs - if they aren't quite on board with MB yet we can't really expect them to understand all the concepts and how they should protect us from their LBs and work to meet our needs.

One of my problems that JC and I talked about last night is I am still not completely O&H with DH. Not about the A, but about my current feelings. I have a tendency to become a "yes woman" - she asked me if I was that way before the A and I laughed and said no - she said that was likely not what DH wanted. That he probably knows that when I agree to whatever that I am not being completely honest about how I am feeling. She coached me on making more "I'd love it if" statements, and how to respond to IB on his part.

She warned me that this weekend was not really going to be a real "vacation" for me as I am going to have to WORK - work to be on guard against LBs. One thing I was worried about was if we get there and he decides he doesn't feel like going hiking or whatever - to come up with alternate suggestions and ask how he'd feel about them. That even if he wants to do nothing, that it's OK for me to say I'd like to go get my nails done or go for a run, making sure to see if he's OK with that (POJA!), that certainly not to spend too much time apart but that things like that are OK because I am not just doing those things for me, I am doing them for him (taking care of my appearance, my body because he benefits from them also).

DNM, your responses have been very helpful for me to see things from DH's perspective. About how important it is to not let him think he's my second choice. I'm not to the point yet where I'm doing everything right - not by a long shot - as I still have to fight my Taker and struggle with not LBing DH - but I agree time - and consistency on the part of the WS - is really the only thing that will work in the end. *I* know he's not my second choice, but *he* doubts that. That is where the promises of MB come into play - my promises to care for him and meet his needs, to protect him from my own LBs, radical honesty, POJA, exclusive need meeting, and so on.


I'm glad you decided to post, HeadHeldHigh. These posts have been a wonderful resource and outlet for me. I've learned as much here as through the books, I think mainly because I am learning how to APPLY MB principles.


I think the key to it is not just the pain, regret, and remorse - it's the ownership of our actions as WS's. My marriage may not make it, and that is because of the choices I made. I understand why I made those choices but that doesn't justify them. JC and I talked more about EP's last night and the importance of being on guard against infidelity in the future - an A is NEVER a right choice and boundaries are critical.


I think that is exactly the right attitude. We have to do this first and foremost for ourselves. For me, I have to do it for me because those boundaries are critical. I have to guard them because it makes ME a better person - no, not just a better person, a better wife.

We're headed out of town in a bit. All systems go! I'm glad I had the chance to talk with JC last night. I asked DH if he wanted to talk with her but he said no. I didn't push it. She said in a month, write him another letter, if he still doesn't want to get on board then a month later, write another letter...and so on. Keep up Plan A. Protect him from my LBs. Start a "needs list" for him and work on ways to meet those needs. I asked her how long to keep on Plan A if he still doesn't show interest in MB - she recommended 6 months, and after that I'd have to decide between basically 3 options - 1: Live with it 2: Stay on Plan A indefinitely (which she said would be nearly impossible because eventually he'd drain his account in my LB$) or 3: Plan B. I don't want any of those options at this point, but right now I have to be careful because any MB talk is something he would likely see as a LB - a DJ as he would see me as trying to "educate" him.

Avoid LBs. Meet his needs. Time. Honesty. Patience. I can do that. Maybe God wants me to learn patience, He knows I've never been good at it before! DH's love is worth it to me. He's the man I want to love, and the man I want to love me.

I gotta pack! And pack my "suprises" for the weekend...wish me luck!

Thanks for highlighting that Plan A and Plan B aren't just for couples currently experiencing an affair. They are a general approach for pulling your spouse out of Withdrawal. Nobody can keep up Plan A with a spouse who's in Withdrawal indefinitely. If they remain unresponsive, eventually you have to decide "do I want to keep living this way, giving and getting nothing back?"

Plan A and Plan B offer the best chance to recover your marriage that I've seen! Truth is, when my wife seems to go Taker-ish here and there, a focus on the basics of "Plan A" seem to bring her around to being loving and caring again in short order. And then we're in "Plan Marriage" again, with both of us contributing to each other's happiness. And I think she follows the same type of plan when I'm not happy, too, as I notice she usually tries to take extra-special care of me and deposits lots of Love Units when I'm in a funk. Instead of the old approach of withdrawing and shouting.

Good changes. Time is the magic ingredient for all of these things to work.

Plan A is hard. JC was right, this is not a vacation for me. Heck, I thought I could avoid the forums for the weekend but as you see here I am!

I know time and a consistent Plan A are the key right now but a bad night has turned into a bad morning. For me, at least. DH is acting like nothing is wrong. We've been having a nice time, I thought...I am trying not to let the fact he turned me down for SF last night hurt my feelings but it's hard. It's OK when *he* initiates, but when I initiate I get turned down flat. Actually, just ignored. Honestly that is how our M was before the A. I went to the bedroom to change last night and came out in something new I'd bought especially for this trip and he wouldn't even look at me. Sat there and looked at the TV. I didn't react, just said I'll be in the bed. He came to bed shortly and laid there like a rock. Didn't reach out or anything.

So all the old feelings come back - he thinks I'm ugly, he's not attracted to me, etc...only now I have what I did during the A to add in there too. No wonder he doesn't want me, I'm a (fill in the blank). After a few minutes of laying in bed, I get up and take a sleep aid and go read till it kicks in. Just told DH "I'm not really all that sleepy." I guess his rejection is one of MY triggers.

I brought the new wedding band I had made for him. Carried it around all day yesterday on our hike, but the time never seemed right. I had it in the bedroom last night too, thought that maybe if he came to bed and things were different than they turned out last night...I want it to be special, don't want to just say "Here." lol Now I know how guys must feel, having a engagement ring for their special gal and trying to find the perfect time to give it to her.

Not giving up, just hurt this morning. I don't think I am doing well at hiding the emotional distance I am feeling right now, that's all. Trying to concentrate on what JC said, that it's OK, it's not always going to be like this, he's still hurting.

The magic ingredient is *time*.

Keep meeting his needs consistently. Think of your Love Bank deposits as chucking buckets of sand into a lake. You won't see the progress at all for a while. Once you do see improvement, it comes very quickly as you've laid that foundation under the lake's surface.

Love Bank balances work that way. He won't know he's in love with you again until he is.

I think the lake I'm chucking that sand into is pretty darn deep.

I gave him his new ring last night, or tried to. He wouldn't take it. Wouldn't look at it, wouldn't look at me. Said "we still have issues" and "we can't even get away from it." That he still doubts I have been completely honest with him. And that he still believes he's second choice. That I am only with him now because things didn't work out the way I wanted. I stuck with how I am committed to him, how I want a new marriage with him, the promises of care, honesty, protection, etc...

I sort of knew he wouldn't accept it. Maybe I was expecting a miracle. JC and I had talked about what to do if he wouldn't accept it, that I just say I'd keep it for him until he was ready. I don't know how much longer I can keep doing this, acting like none of this stuff hurts me.

Tomorrow is our anniversary. 13 years. I don't even know whether to say "happy anniversary" to him or not.

Hiya Wullf,

I would go ahead and say Happy Anniversary anyway, and buy him a card and leave it out for him. He needs to know it means something to you, if you ignore it he will think you don't care.

Happy anniversary, I hope this is the start of better times.

Hitch

WP Girl,

I am hoping that your BH comes out of his withdrawal enough to remember why you were both so happy 13 years ago on this anniversary. Maybe you can write a love note to him with at least 13 reasons why he is the man you married and another 13 reasons why he is the one you want to spend the rest of your life with?

Thank you for this thread. We share a lot of actions/reactions in common for me being the BS and you being the WS, which I find to be extremely interesting. Although I think a lot of that comes from you being the spouse that really understands the MB principles and wants to make your marriage the best it can be. Hopefully your husband will come out of his withdrawal and embrace them fully soon so that you can get to a better place. Together.

Meanwhile, stay strong but do take care of yourself. Acting like none of this hurts you takes a toll, as you noted. And builds resentment towards your husband. Take some time out for yourself and focus on your health, body and self worth. I don't know if this will help you, but I had to back off of my "neediness" in order to have my DH come around to wanting to rebuild our marriage. I had to consciously realize that I was undermining our progress by wanting it so badly. I still wanted it badly, I just couldn't act like I wanted it that badly! Does that make sense?

Perfectly. Power in a reliationship goes to the person who cares less about it. You have to let go of your "need" to be married to this person in order to gain enough power to negotiate fairly with your spouse as an equal. Otherwise you're always the supplicant, and being the supplicant isn't very appealing. Realizing you'd be just fine without your spouse, and that being together is a CHOICE and not a necessity, can help lead to a terrific marriage.

**NOTE: The above isn't necessarily MarriageBuilders advice. I just learned as part of my Plan A that I had to meet her needs because I wanted us to be together, not because I needed her. Getting rid of my neediness was a prerequisite to her contributing 100% back into our relationship and ending her withdrawal symptoms. I think it's a product of the Policy of Joint Agreement, personally, but not necessarily something Dr. Harley teaches.

WPG:

You stated this:


He may not have any desire whatsoever to "celebrate" the anniversary of your marriage. He may be away for 4 days with you, but he is certainly reacting poorly to you now.

I would recommend this, as I have spat all over my wedding anniversary as well. We don't celebrate that day anymore. Maybe sometime in the future, but not even after 5 years of recovery. It may mean you have to have the convo about celebrating a new "date".

THe ring, and the week together, the same time as your anniversary may just be overwhelming him. He is lost in a swirl of conflicting emotions.

You had built up alot of expectations that this would be 'wonderful" time to reconnect and maybe, be like your original trips or honeymoon.

This pressure was subtly applied to your BH as well.

I would have the discussion about celebrating a "new" date with him. It could be the date of discovery (we celebrate that one) the date of NC, the date you had SF for the first time sfterward, the date he "accepted" you back into the marriage, etc. An appropriate date will reveal itself if you talk about it.

LG

Thanks, planAprincess & DNM...You know, one of my girlfriends sent me a quote a while back that said, "The one who loves the least controls the relationship." Your advice makes a lot of sense. At this point, for my health I have to back down and try to take care of me. I threw up blood on Saturday so I suspect that I may have an ulcer. So have to make a dr's appointment this week to get checked out. I will still do all I can to meet DH's needs and I won't LB him. I need to get my head back in the game here at work and I need to love my girls. I need to be a daughter to my parents, who are dealing with a lot of stress right now that has nothing to do with the state of my marriage. I need to be a friend (to my close girlfriends, of course!). DH didn't marry me because I was a needy, clingy, neurotic mess. Well, maybe a little neurotic.


Thank you for this point, LG. I have to say, though, the trip and the timing was DH's suggestion. I probably should have thought ahead that our anniversary would be a tough date and scheduled something different. And even though I'd had the idea about the ring, it was something that JC mentioned for me to do in our first coaching session to do for DH - and I had not mentioned that idea to her. But I can definitely see that I pressured him, not setting out to do it purposely, but pressure nonetheless.



That's the rub...we have to have a conversation. That's something we're not really doing these days. Conversation was not high on his list of EN's - it is on mine. Of course O&H is high on his and he pretty much thinks every word out of my mouth is a lie, which probably then influences his lack of desire to sit and talk to me.

I *did* have a nice weekend with him. I told him so last night, and that there was noplace else I would have rather been. I downloaded the pictures off the camera when we got home yesterday. I guess I often think he's enjoying himself more than he actually is...there's a photo of him on one of our hikes - we'd just stopped to eat lunch at a waterfall and I was climbing around taking pictures. I turned back to take his picture and called his name so he'd look at me. The look on his face in that photo, looking back at me, is one of utter hatred and disgust. I made a comment (when we were looking at the pics) that "Wow - you look like you were having fun!" and kind of laughed, and he responded he was just tired. I know, I am assuming, but the look in his eyes in that pic...wow...

Don't know what to tell you, WPG.

Our anniversary still means something to my FWW. To her, she says "we made it, we are still here."

To me, it was pain. It was a reminder that she broke every promise she made to me in our wedding vows. I told her happy anniversary because it was important to her, but it was one of the worst days I've had so far.

She bought me a card;

"To my husband,

Our relationship may not be the happily-ever-after story we imagined, but it doesn't mean our story doesn't count. I've valued every moment of our time together - the ups and the downs - and I want to tell you that no matter what, I will always love you."

Our anniversary was 9/25 - I got the card yesterday.

It's not easy. It feels like almost every day I have to decide if I'm making the right choice. Yeah, I don't know why I'm even giving her a chance, but I am. And I know she's trying hard, even on the days where it just isn't enough to break my funk.

I am thankful for that.


Keep chuckin' that sand, WPG.

HHH, thanks for your response. I will have to go back and catch up on your thread - I'm interested to know what things your FWW is doing that help you the most. I saw where you two had done the EN questionnaires - what were your top ENs?

We've been having a rough couple of days since coming home from our trip. DH is very withdrawn. I try to contact him frequently via text or email, especially since I've had 2 days of meetings where I've been out of the office (day trips, fortunately - nothing overnight). Working on planning a trip to a pumpkin patch with our DDs this weekend. I mentioned it to him so if he wants to go he can, if not, I will focus on them. Bought the girls their Halloween costumes today on my way back from my meeting, and picked up croissants for DH and I for dinner this evening.

He's already gone to bed (at 7:30!!!) so obviously any time together is out tonight. I want to spend UA time with him but he tries to head me off at every angle. I don't know...it's just strange, last week before we went out of town he was sending me suggestive texts and wanting me to come home for lunch. Every time he does, or otherwise wants to initiate SF, I agree because I love having SF with him but also I want to try to meet his needs...sometimes it is hard to get in the right frame of mind though because it comes out of nowhere - I mean, he'll ignore me for days and then WHAM! want SF...I guess it will get better eventually, but it is hard when I try to initiate and get rejected.

I am trying to focus on regular workouts again - I was running pretty regular and it's become sporadic...I think I need to focus some effort on me. Physically I am exhausted and am still having stomach issues. I need to make an appointment at the doc's about it but there's part of me that just wants to stay sick, I know that doesn't make rational sense and maybe it's a need for me to punish myself (totally nonproductive) or to get pity from DH (not gonna happen). I have this thought that if there was something seriously life-threatening wrong with me maybe that would be enough to knock him off the fence. Stupid, I know. I have to take care of myself and be healthy for my DD's...that means exercise regularly, get a checkup, quit smoking (geez-oh-pete I am doing my part to support the struggling tobacco industry since my A was revealed in all its ignomy).

So I'm looking into gymnastics for DD#1 and think I may find myself a good yoga class or even a krav maga class. Maybe it will help to build my confidence back in myself again - is it a crazy idea? And being in better shape will be a benefit for DH too - not that I am in bad shape, I have lost 40 pounds and kept it off with running, and actually weigh less than when DH and I met (better shape too, other than the fact that after 2 kids things don't sit in the same place as when you're 21, lol).

Just feeling down again, was looking forward to at least trying to spend time with DH tonight. Gotta get the girls in bed - DD#1 will play on the computer all night if I let her.

If your H is anything like I was after my false recovery with my H, he has been withdrawn from you since your trip because even though he was still suffering while you were gone you managed to make deposits in his $LB. I was very bad about that, if my H did anything caused me to feel anything positive for him I would withdraw so that I could regain my emotional distance. Your H doesnt want to lose you, but he is trying to keep you at a safe distance, in case you are holding on to anything else that could hurt him, or you decide to hurt him again. Just keep trying, be as consistant as possible, and rebuild his trust in you. Once he starts to feel a little safer, he probably wont feel the need to push you away anymore.

I see a lot of things that I do and say in your H, maybe because of the false recovery, so I am hoping and praying for both of you even though I dont usually have any constructive advice to give. You seem to be doing very well so keep up the good work!

I'll ask her to read in and put down her 2 cents.

Though, from what she has told me, when I hit those spots, she just tries to smother me... without smothering me. Still has a habit of asking "what's wrong." I don't tend to directly answer - we are not far out from full disclosure.

The other day I crashed horribly, and when I got home I was so wrecked I couldn't even look at her.

In our case, though, I am doing everything I can to not withdraw, no matter how much I really want to.

It created a situation that night. She showered me with affection, and she had the desire to fulfill her need for SF. However, she didn't feel "right" initiating when I was so low.

As I'm sure you know, men have little "tattle tales" for arousal, and she noticed.

I however noticed that something was wrong. I got it out of her, and let her know that no matter how low I get, I'm not going to shut her out or deny her needs. That's how she ended up vulnerable.

Anyway, in short - if he isn't open to SF, or if he's going to bed early, or whatever - see if he will at least let you be there. DW just tries to keep some kind of physical contact; hold my hand, or stroke my arm.

Don't dig at him - that may be an invitation for LB's. You know it isn't right, but he isn't on the same path yet.

I'll look up our ENQ's. My top I think were Aff, Adm, SF, Conv, and RC. Her top 5 were the exact same top 5 with little variation.

That's what has been most painful about this whole experience; while it may have been a catalyst for a better marriage, things weren't so far gone that it was the only path.

If any of you want to catch up with my DH's side of things, I just learned he started posting on here. He is broken2009 and is posting on the SAA board. I read all over the boards and saw a new post and saw the nearly identical sig line. GloveOil had already figured it out.

I read his thread. I don't know if it was good or bad for me to do that. I won't post on it. I've told him he was free to read my thread ever since I started posting.

He's posting about exposing to OMW. We had not done that yet, although we'd talked about it, and I've posted about it on this forum. I told him about what I learned here. I didn't push it as I wanted it to be his decision. He had learned that OMW was pregnant and told me he did not want to cause her more stress during the pregnancy. At the risk of making a DJ, on his thread it sounds like he's implying that I am the one who doesn't want to expose. She deserves to know what an SOB she is married to. From some of the things DH said to me about OM after DDay, I don't think I am the only woman he's had an affair with. I remember him chatting on FB with me about married friends of his who were getting a D, and that the H in that sitch accused OM of having an A with his wife. He had also told me about his little group of friends and how cheating was a game for them. But HE wasn't like that, oh no, cause he said so!!! I was so stupid. I don't care about hurting him. I have no loyalty to OM. I do care about hurting OMW. I see what this has done to my DH and I wish I could spare her that. But I didn't care about hurting anyone when I was engaging in the A. I've destroyed two families through my actions. The lives of 3 (4, if OMW is really pregnant) children have been ruined because of what I did. Not telling her is not sparing her anything...she's already been hurt, she just doesn't know it yet. Like walking around with a tumor inside of you that you don't know is there, and then you go to the doctor and you get this diagnosis that you never suspected, and you learn your life is irrevocably changed.

The reason my relationship with OM ended when we were in high school was because I went to college, and he broke up with me shortly after I got there. I did encounter him again when I was at college, not long after DH and I had started dating. He had started attending the same school. I was 21-22 (?) at the time (DH and I started dating the February after my 21st bday - in 1993 - DH and I got engaged in 1995). I was typical college mode and still partying quite a bit. OM lived with 2 other guys in a run-down house not far from where I was living with my (female) roommate. DH was pretty much living there with me as well. OM invited me to a couple of parties at his house, which I went to with girlfriends. The "reconnection" DH is referring to is one night I had to go see a play for this drama class I was taking at school. I'd asked DH to go but he didn't want to and I didn't want to go by myself, so I asked OM. Stupid. After the play we went back and hung out at his house. His roommates were there, but at one point we were alone and he kissed me. I got up and left and never spoke to him again, until he contacted me on FB. OM even referred to this night before our A became physical. How he wished he'd gone after me that night, blah blah blah.

So even more reason that I should have done everything in my power to avoid OM throughout my entire life. I didn't tell DH about it while we were dating - it came out after DDay. Another lie from the woman he trusted. When DH and I were dating, I knew I wanted him, not the OM. I didn't tell him about the kiss because I wasn't going to let it happen again. We weren't married then, although that's what I wanted, and I didn't know the things I know now, or I would have put EP's in place against OM or anyone else. I would have already HAD EPs in place.

One part of me sees him posting here as a good sign - he's reaching out and he is looking for help and advice. I hope he finds what he needs here. This site has been a real help to me.

I don't know anymore. DH sounds so hopeless on his thread. He deserves to be happy, and maybe that is not with me.

Thanks for your response, HHH - you guys really aren't far off from exposure at all. I am impressed with your dedication to MB and trying to rebuild - I think it's a good thing you found MB so early in recovery.


This is nearly every day for us. DH doesn't want to make eye contact or anything with me anymore.


I try. He never liked me touching him before the A. Used to pull away from me, sometimes even physically push me away from him. He was always very physically affectionate with our DDs. He seems to tolerate me touching him now but I am sure it takes a lot of effort on his part to do so.


What to you becomes too much "digging" or even "smothering"? I don't push anymore. I'll ask DH if there's anything he wants to talk about and he always replies "No." End of conversation. I try to just let him know that I am there if he needs me.


The only one you have in common with my DH is Admiration (his #5). Although in my sessions with JC, she said that we really should redo ours at some point because the revelation of the A has probably thrown DH's needs out of kilter. DH's top one was O&H, which she said was fairly common for BS's after an A. I don't know if I do Admiration well - I think I get mixed up with things that he probably thinks are more Affection. Otherwise DH's needs are domestic support, financial support, and family commitment. So...washing dishes? Doing laundry? His mother actually comes in and cleans the house for us every other week, which is nice and takes care of a lot of that. Maybe he wants me to work more on the outside of the house. I work and bring home a decent salary. I quit my PT job so I bring in less money now. I don't question anything he spends money on anymore even though right now I am a little uncomfortable with some pretty large expenses, but I trust he knows best how to handle our finances. He had indicated he didn't think I spent enough time with the girls, that I only see them for a few minutes each night. Truthfully probably most of my time with them is child care duties - getting them up and ready for school, fed breakfast, etc. I'm working on that one, wanting to do more fun stuff with them.



Yeah, I agree. An A was an inexcusable way for me to get DH's attention. Every day I wish I'd learned all of this stuff years ago.

I had the exact same experience. Openness & Honesty was definitely on my list somewhere, but a much lower priority prior to the affair.


Complimenting him in public is a great way to hit Admiration. Expressing appreciation for work he has done hits it, too. Compliments on his appearance, physique, and hygiene help. Other ones I like when my wife hits them are expressing traits about me that she is trying to develop in herself, expressing confidence in my abilities, and recognizing progress I've made on things that are important to me.


Possibly. But remember there are four Intimate Emotional Needs that should be met exclusively by you: intimate conversation, affection, sexual fulfillment, and recreation. He should not be engaging in these with anybody else, nor should you. They pave the way for affairs... but also for good marriages. You should become one another's favorite recreational companions.


I'd submit working more outside the home is the opposite of what you want to do. You build the most Love Units doing things together, not apart. Focus on meeting those needs that are best met in his presence; they will give you the most result for your efforts. And the four Intimate Emotional Needs are not ones that either of you can ethically meet outside the marriage, while the rest reasonably could be.

Funny thing; O&H - actually #1 when we filled them out (dated 8/31/10 - within a week of D-day: Full disclosure).

I guess at this point, with the changes she has made in her daily schedule and behaviors, that it has pegged down accordingly.

Part of the plan we have is to go over EN and LB Q's quarterly. Like a performance review. Of course these things are going to change over time.

Sometimes, the most important ENs don't feel like the most important because they are, but because they are not currently being met properly.

DNM, thank you for the suggestions on admiration - those are good!


I agree on the intimate ENs. The biggest hurdle we face is that often I don't get the opportunity to meet these for DH, and when he is in withdrawal he doesn't try to meet them for me. I'm more than willing, and when an opportunity presents itself I seize it, unfortunately they don't come along often. I felt like we had some good RC time this past weekend but in his state I am not sure if I was successful in making any LB$ deposits due to the triggers he had over the weekend.



Working outside the home wasn't what I meant - I was referring more to the area of domestic support and helping him with the yardwork. The yardwork has kind of always been his domain - I have told him more than once I'm an "indoor sort of girl" - lol. But he's great at the landscaping and things like that - in our old house we won "yard of the month" once - he's got a knack for it. I've always let him handle it but maybe it would be rewarding to him to work on projects together.

As far as any other work, my job is 40 hours a week, more or less. I'm done with the PT teaching job that took me away one night a week (all that's left is submitting grades online) so 1.) that eliminates (hopefully) one of his triggers and 2.) doesn't take me away from home at night. If financial support is more important, I can probably pick up some teaching jobs online which I can do from home, but it cuts into time I could spend with him and the girls so I'd rather not unless we have to for financial reasons.


Again, risking a DJ here but I think it has not dropped for DH because of the FR I put him through and his inability to believe I am being totally O&H now. He's mentioned before how he doesn't know what I am doing at work, i.e., on the office phone, work computer, etc. and much of my A was conducted during work hours. Case in point, me missing a text from him a week or so ago was upsetting to him.

HHH, I'm glad your FWW's changes have helped you feel that she is trying to meet this need.



Excellent point. I keep trying with O&H but am not hitting the mark exactly right, I guess. I actually asked DH if he wanted me to quit my job and he said then he'd wonder what I was doing all day if I wasn't working.

I'm not having a good day anyway. I need to save up for another session with JC if I keep feeling like I am still in this stuck place.

Wulff,

Since you read your H's post, did you pick up on what has really been bothering him? It was the conversations you had with OM, about wanting to be with OM rather than your H. It was comparisons you made between OM and your H and your H lost. Your H feels he lost every time in everyway.

It is not you he is struggling with, it is himself. He does not feel that you value, respect, or want him. He cannot bring himself to believe what you say to him now, because of what you have said and done earlier. He knows he was lied to and could not tell.

I would strongly urge you to talk to the Harley's and address this issue of the BS feeling as if they do not and cannot measure up to what you got from OM. By they way, your H's feelings right now are very very common in a BS.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

So, WPG, I know you probably didn't mean that to sound like such a downer; but today's a new day, and you have a new opportunity to rephrase that. Wanna give it a shot?

Your every word & every action must say to him: "I am going to be here for you, no matter what."

Love perseveres. Love sticks.

**edit**

Rising, I read your post the other day and realized I'd forgotten to respond - but what you said definitely sounds like it could be us:


It seems we've developed this pattern of getting close and then pulling away. I start feeling positive, like we are making progress, and then I get the wind knocked out of me again. I spent part of the day at work scrolling through DH's text messages to me since January. Most of them are still saved on my phone. I'll do the same with emails. I deleted everything he'd sent me from the FR, texts and emails, from August through December in a fit of frustration at myself, because I couldn't read the things he'd said that were based on my lies. Anyway in texts and emails you can see it like a wave - moving toward intimacy and then away again.



I guess I am not always convinced he doesn't want to lose me...I mean, yes, he's here, he's stayed, he could have met with a lawyer months ago...but what we've got right now is not much different than what we had pre-A. Oh, I have boundaries in place now and I refuse to allow anyone of the opposite sex to meet any of my needs, where pre-A I obviously had poor boundaries and no EP's in place. He has said previously that he has stayed, that should be the proof I need that he loves me.



In my 2 sessions with JC we did talk about DH's feelings of being "second choice." That was one of the reasons she suggested the new wedding ring. I'd never mentioned to JC that I was thinking of buying him a new ring. Maybe I got it wrong, but I gathered from our sessions that it would be the sort of gesture that would show he was not my second choice.

I have a clear understanding now of why my A happened, and why it happened with who it did. It has nothing to do with OM being in any way "better" than DH. OM was - and is - a selfish, childish man who is used to getting his own way in everything. He pressured his wife into allowing him to open his own business despite her fears that it was risky. He knew exactly what buttons to push with me when he realized that I had weak boundaries in place. And apparently, after OM learned that I revealed the PA to my DH, he promptly got his wife pregnant, perhaps to seal her committment to him when she learns the truth. There were many things that annoyed me about OM that I simply ignored while I was in the fog, simply because I craved the attention.

Anyway, JC said to keep focusing on meeting DH's needs and protect him from my LB behavior. She said I'd need to do a lot pf "priming the pump," that DH had spent a lot of his "rocket fuel" towards recovery during our FR. She wanted me to work on writing our his needs list and coming up with ways I could meet each of his needs.

What else should I be doing?



thanks for the pep talk, GO...I had a bad day yesterday. Read your post this morning and resolved to do MY part to make today better! My part is the only thing I can control.

Keep chucking the buckets of sand into the lake, WPG. Storms will wash away some of the work, but you're rebuilding the foundation. Your BH posting here helps him, I think. Hope the two of you can get a session with JC soon.

I second that, and add; actions speak louder than words. And you are at a point where your word has been so damaged, that you have to let your actions speak.

Life outside the fog sucks, no? I do have some empathy for my FWW. She tossed our M aside to be utterly used. By a chicken-excrement slimeball... KID. Has to suck for her. Sucks for me.

He has taken a huge step coming here, but let's do something; your thread and things discussed in it is for you. His thread and things discussed in it are for him.

The advice each of you receive is for that person to follow, and these forums are not leverage in your negotiations. If he reads your thread, he should follow this, too.

If I may go media geek for a second, and quote Morpheus in the Matrix; "What was said is for you, and you only."

Hey Wulff

Thanks for posting on my thread, it is good of you to think of me. Thanks for considering me in your prayers.

I have read your H thread, you hold his heart in your hands and it is yours to lose.

You have to be very sensitive to anything that triggers him, be completely O&H without fear, anytime you think, oh I am not sure I should tell him that, you have to tell him! You have to bare your soul and let him know EXACTLY what happened. TReat him as though he is at the edge of a cliff about to jump..

YOu can do this, and I will be very disappointed if you don't....

Best of luck

Harmony xx

Sage advice, HHH. I probably should refrain from reading his thread. It's too painful. The post he just made hurts, and I want to address it...and sometimes I just want to scream. And cry. The thing about the wedding ring he just said. The only ring I ever saw OM wear was some stainless steel thing with a tribal design (imho, fugly, but not like I am the fashion police!). And only saw him in that maybe twice at lunch. I picked a ring out for H that was - I thought - a beautiful ring and different from the ring that represented our old M. I shopped around and put time into it, tried to find one that would be comfortable to wear. Considered what to have engraved inside (we'd never had our old rings engraved). Honestly my first thought (OK, second thought - first I burst into tears) was that I'd put the ring on craigslist.

Oh well. So I'm off his thread. Otherwise I am going to go back and forth and try to address his thread on my thread in some passive-agressive form of communicating and it is going to drive me crazy. It's just that he's not telling ME these things, you know? And it hurts to read them like this, like it's through a third person. Should I block him, so I don't see his posts? Do you think that would be better for me? I think if I keep seeing them it's like probing a sore tooth, if that makes sense. And he didn't invite me to read his thread, I only found it by accident. He didn't tell me he signed up for this site. He knows I post here.

So - OK, anybody who wants to follow both threads, if there are things I need to do to help him, please tell me here. I think I have learned my lesson on reading his thread.

I feel like I get up, I start to try and fight again and chuck that sand, and then I get beat down with a stick. I know that feeling sorry for myself is non-productive. I know I did this to myself. It is just getting harder and harder for me to bounce back.

Agreed on the O&H - this is something keeping him in the muck.

You MUST answer completely and honestly each and every question he may ask - do not dodge questions, no more half truths, no more excuses.

You are too far along to continue to disrespect his need for total honesty. (I am not assuming much here, WPG, but it seems that this is a major issue for him)

Just don't toss it out. He needs to ask what he needs to know, and you need to answer. This is part of the process of claiming responsibility for your actions.

Forgot to ask my FWW to chime in for you. Tonight I will tell ask her if she will read over your stories and see what she can contribute - what she sees from me and how she approaches it.

You can do this Wullf, get your strength together, don't forget to look after yourself too, Ihad anice full body massage last night, that worked wonders!! Don't let us down...

FWW and I have hot bubble baths, and on alternate nights, do full body massages.

This all doesn't have to lead to SF, WPG - and for one or the other of you it may or may not - but that EN meeting and bonding is fantastic.

Harmony (I keep wanting to call you by your old name, lol!), you are such a sweetheart! It's amazing how a bunch of strangers has become my best system of support!

JC told me the same thing, about if I ever think, "Hmm, this is something H doesn't need to know" that I should tell him immediately. He hasn't brought up the A directly in quite some time, other than the feelings of being second choice. Months ago - after I wrote him that 20-page novel (I'd have to go back in my thread to see when that was) - the one where I pretty much screwed up and wrote about feelings rather than details, which was what H wanted - we sat down together and went over the bank statements, credit card statements, cell phone bills, etc. to come up with a "timeline." I indicated each restaurant where OM and I ate lunch, the days I saw him, and the dates where I had sex with OM. I gave him all the dates from my work/personal calendars (even went into the computer system and noted where I have taken time off from work) to fill in gaps. At the time H seemed satisfied, although he still had questions I couldn't answer. And the reason I couldn't answer was because I simply couldn't remember - not because I was hiding anything from him. Like the cell phone log would show a phone call between me and OM and the call would have gone through a tower in the town next to us. H would ask why I was in that town at that day/time. His suspicion was I was headed for a meet with OM. There were days I simply couldn't remember every little thing I did or place I went, and those things make him think I am not being totally O&H.

He has not asked for all the gory details. I've told him sex with OM was not better, and it wasn't. OM just wanted to take care of himself. I didn't think about it at the time because I didn't want the attention to stop. H said at one point he wasn't sure if he wanted to know all the details, and I said something about the way his mind holds onto every single detail, but that asking questions was totally up to him...H imagines it far, far better than it actually was.

I feel like whatever I say it doesn't matter anyway. The words that come out of my mouth are just dirt to H because of how I lied for so long. It doesn't matter why I lied during the FR, all that matters is I lied. I try to be consistent and loving with my actions but I am just so tired. I know recovery can take years, but I can't help but wish that something would happen to push us farther down the path to a loving and recovered marriage.

Ever wonder if part of what he isn't telling you may be in the same vein as to why you withheld information?

Is it possible that despite his pain and suffering, he just can't imagine hurting you?

How do your breakdown interactions go?

He doesn't ask. I am not disrespecting his need for honesty about the A. He just doesn't ask me any questions about it anymore. The last questions about the A he asked are along the lines of "Is there anything you haven't told me?" "Have you told me everything?" "Have you told me the truth?"

I have written and verbally told him about my feelings/emotions during the A. That was not what he wanted to hear. He wanted details. So we did the timeline thing with all the bills/statements so he could get those details.**


**is that what you were referring to, HHH, about the breakdown interactions? there was really just the one session with all the bills...it went fairly smoothly, businesslike. I don't recall H getting upset although I may have gotten upset when I didn't remember something - like the cell phone location thing - obviously I'd gotten out of the office at lunchtime but was I on a random trip to the store or to grab some lunch..I couldn't remember and I'd get upset because I thought he'd think I was lying again. And when we were done, together we took all the paperwork and went outside and burned it. He told me we were done with it, he didn't need it anymore. The one after I'd left him my "feelings novel" (prior to the bills one) didn't go so well as he was very disappointed in it, it wasn't what he was looking for.

JC said I am not being completely O&H with H now over what I am feeling in our recovery - i.e., I am not following POJA - not being honest with him over things that I am not enthusiastic/happy about, and not being honest over things that are hurting me. Although she said I have to be careful and use my best judgement at pointing out any of H's LBs right now - so, essentially, I haven't been pointing out ANY LBs. But somehow I don't think this is the O&H H is referring to (am I DJ'ing?). He's stuck on the doubts he has playing in his mind over my A.

So what do I do? Sit him down and hash back through the entire thing with him again, start to finish?


I don't know...he's so withdrawn that I feel like he doesn't notice my hurt...regardless we're hurting each other right now anyway. Terribly. I'm doing everything I can think of to try NOT to hurt him but it's like he's a trauma patient and I can't stop the bleeding.



Thanks - any feedback and support is appreciated!

Poetic: "He's like a trauma patient and I can't stop the bleeding."

FWW kind of echoes this when I have a bad day. We've talked about it, and she tells me it's confusing; how do you comfort someone when you are the one who caused their pain?

What I mean by breakdown interaction, is how does each of you react to the other when you hit a breaking point?

Adding; sometimes I shut down and refuse to talk because the anger and pain rises to the point that I cannot take part in a constructive conversation.

This is a point I need to bring up in my own thread, though my FWW has requested that I just be O&H BEFORE I reach that point so that we can talk it through.

I hold back on that request because I feel like it will just keep us in the muck. Dunno...

Yes - definitely - especially when they don't feel safe with you, and are in withdrawal.


Sorry I misunderstood - was thinking breakdown meant literally "breaking things down"...Actually pretty simple answer. He withdraws. I get upset. I am better at managing my LBs at this point to where I just need to kind of get by myself (as JC put it when I spoke w/her, if I need to go in the bathroom and shut the door and have a good cry...just do it!). But I still get upset and do things that probably seem to be childish (stuff like throwing the journal I was making in the trash - I'll be honest and admit that after reading his thread yesterday I threw the note I left him on the bed AND the new lingerie in the trash). If I can get by myself I can usually sort things out and calm down. We're not even interacting with each other right now, I'm only reacting to the stuff I've read (which is why I am going to stay off his thread), maybe it's at least a positive that most of my "breakdowns" aren't occurring in front of H. I don't know.

He withdraws. Won't speak to me. Won't even look at me. It's like I don't exist to him. He had two angry-borderline violent episodes but they occurred months ago - the first was the night I finally admitted to PA - he didn't hit me but he drew back his fist and almost did - broke every picture in the bedroom. The second was the day he threw his wedding ring into the lake, shoved me, cursed me in front of the girls, punched the steering wheel in the car. Can't even remember the exact date. Honestly have tried to forget both those days. I wish I could forget. That's not what I want to remember about my H. What I hear when he rejects and withdraws now is his voice from that first night calling me a wh*re.


H said something similar to me once, that he shut down because he didn't want to say something he couldn't take back. And yes, his withdrawal is much less frightening to me than his anger. The times I saw his anger terrified me.



I don't know either, HHH...Dr. Harley says that every time you talk about the A, you are withdrawing Love Units from each other. His advice was not to talk about the A all the time - more like you save up your questions and things and have one conversation rather than asking one question here, one there, etc...obviously as more questions arise, there may need to be another A conversation...there's an article somewhere, I'll try to find it or maybe one of the vets will beat me to it!

If it's other things that you are needing her to be O&H about, well if we are following MB advice we must be radically honest with our spouses. I don't know how she's feeling, but for me I struggle with O&H because I am afraid if H knows how hard I struggle or how close I get sometimes to giving up, that it would only make HIM worse - does that make sense? It has nothing to do with the A for me, it's all about how I feel now. It's the constant feeling of keeping my Taker at bay and trying to let my Giver work and feeling so drained. Ignoring his LBs and not having my needs met. JC's advice to me was not to address H's LBs right now as he has to be on board with MB first. One caveat - if there are huge, blatant ones, I can use my best judgment as to how to address. Him becoming a part of this online community is a big step towards that, I hope, but he's not there yet. I need him to come to me and tell me that he's ready, he's on board.

Another point on withdrawal is that it is a typical male response. Men withdraw in the face of conflict with someone they love - women, however, "confront to connect." Explains why a woman will follow her husband all around the house arguing while he's just trying to get away. Read the book "Love & Respect" by Emerson Eggerichs if you haven't already - good stuff.

Kids are getting antsy - promised them a corn maze today. Invited H to go, I'll leave it up to him.

I just wanted to echo some of those things. My wife would sometimes interpret my withdrawl as pouting, which infuriated me almost as much as the original event that triggered the withdrawl in the first place! It was safer for me to just shut down than to actually speak my mind and risk an AO or DJ.

JC would always tell me that the truth wrapped in a DJ is still a lovebuster....the difference between radical honesty and brutal honesty, I guess. She figured me out pretty quickly and told my W that my withdrawl was not only to protect myself from further hurt, but to protect her feelings from me AO'ing or DJ'ing.

Like HHH said, if I can't have a constructive conversation - or express my needs/feelings/thoughts in an MB-correct way, it was safer to withdraw than cause further damage. Our situation is different than yours, and I don't know if this is where your BH is, but there you go.

BTW we used to live in the RTP area. Gorgeous out there, especially this time of year.

Exactly. Many men -- self included -- had experiences when we were younger that taught us that combining male strength with anger is an extremely bad idea. I broke a kid's arm. A close friend of mine put another kid in the hospital.

These aren't exceptions. Having a terrifying experience as a result of our own anger and strength combined are NORMAL experiences for many young males. The lesson we draw from that is that if we don't keep a tight check on our anger, we are capable of some extremely dangerous actions.

My wife used to always do the "follow me around when she wants to talk" thing. The trouble is, introducing a talk with "we need to talk" immediately puts the man on the defensive. It implies that he doesn't know that he should be talking about something, which is a DJ. Usually, the thing the wife wants to talk about is something the husband is doing wrong, which is extremely touchy ground to avoid another DJ, and often SDs for what she thinks he should be doing about it.

Often, a male's best bet to avoid anger overflowing into violence is to remove himself from the situation.

I just want to say that I feel sooo much pain and anger for what I have done to my BH and my family.Having a A destroys such a big part of a marriage and I have a realy hard time dealing with my own pain and disgust of myself .

Like you when I think of what I did and who I did it with I get so angry with myself and call myself every dirty thing I can think of.

My BH refuses to yell or call me names. Even when I wish he would.He like to think thing through and then dissect everything.Which is a good thing but sometimes I get so sad because Of how much he loves me and I threw that away.


We are still in very early stages of recovery but I think when I finally told him the whole truth and all the gory details that helped him not to be in withdrawal all the time.

He did have to pry for details because I didn't think that they were necessary.I know now I was just trying to protect him from further pain.

My BH still has very bad days which are rally hard to deal with.I feel so helpless.They always come after good days and that throws me off balance I feel like crap when I wake up happy and find him in a funk. So what might seem like smothering I don't leave his side. If he goes in the bedroom so do I even if theres no contact Ill lay there and just look at him.

The other night was a really bad one he wouldn't even look at me which absolutely killed me! I did everything I could ran him a bubble bath gave him a massage told him no matter how much he tries to push me away I'm not going anywhere and that I was sorry that I wasn't there before. He didn't say much other then I was stubborn and that's ok.


I guess my advise to you is even when it seems so helpless even the smallest gestures that you do do impact him even if you don't see them.I believe there is light at the end of the tunnel.Sorry for this is so long just venting;.

Wolfpackgirl
The six month to twelth month are known as the anger phase. Many a BH go through it. Some never do. Some never leave it.

You are working hard to repair things. But this is not a building, road, or any other physical object. So putting more people on the job, working a second shift, using bigger machines is not going to get things done faster.

Recovery can take two to five years.

Is it fair for someone being a WS having an affair for two to five months have to wait up to five years for recovery to be done?

Well it has nothing to do with fairness. It's what happens after an affair.

Changes during recovery can not usually be measured in days. Remembering this may help you to be able to get focused on your goal.

Remember this and think about this. Any WS can be the perfect spouse after the affair. Do everything perfect to recover marriage. Then after a year or two or three and the BS wants a divorce.

You have to work as a aerial artist without a net. No guarantees you will not be dropped.

Sounds just like JC's advice! She told me quite a bit along the same lines - for example, not to try and "educate" H because I'm committing a DJ by implying I know more than he does - she said it was just like saying, "Hey, stupid!"

Thanks to bitbucket & DNM for providing the male point of view on the anger issue. And see, pre-A I could never understand why H would withdraw from me. I absolutely HATE that it took an A for me to truly LEARN how to have a real marriage - how to understand my H and how to best let him understand me. I can only hope the knowledge is not too little, too late.


Thanks for your post, NeverGoBack. It's hard not to see yourself that way, sometimes. I've read luri's posts about how she used to feel like she'd wear a scarlet letter A forever. I feel that way now - like today, I was out with the kids and there's this thought in the back of my mind, like everyone can look at me and see how truly disgusting I am. GloveOil's posts really helped me to recognize how useless beating myself up is - I can't focus on my H if I am focused on wallowing in the bottom of the pit of despair. That's not to say I don't ever find myself there, certainly! But it's something that gives me the strength to crawl out. Mark posted some good advice to me about the concept of forgiveness - God's forgiveness and being able to accept that.


I think that is part of what frustrates my H now, how he had to pry for details - that I didn't admit to anything until he had evidence to prove it. We, as FWWs, only *think* we're protecting them, but in reality we're protecting ourselves. We don't want to face the awfulness of what we did. The whole time we were in our FR, I told myself I was protecting H. All I did was show him that I am a coward, and to him the behavior wasn't protective, it was cruelty. He's truly not got a dishonest bone in his body, so for me to look him in the eyes and lie was the worst thing I could have done. I didn't have MB then or maybe I would have learned all that so much sooner. Although ideally I wish I'd had MB years ago - even before DD#1 was born, when I sought counseling because I "wasn't happy." Do you know what the counselor's advice to me was then? She told me to leave him. I didn't want to do that - I wanted her help to "fix" my marriage - so I stopped going to her. Of course now I know that the "fixing" attitude is not right either - I can't "fix" what I've done now.

My thoughts today (well, for the last couple of days) have been along the lines of telling him I'd like to talk about the A, and then taking him through the 2 physical encounters step by step. Telling him he can stop me at any point, and asking him if he wants more details as I go. That's what is missing, the details. He knows the sex happened, but he hasn't pressed for details - his mind has made them up for him. It may be a help to meeting his need for O&H. It may be so painful that he may decide to leave me, but that's his choice. I gave him that card to play when I had an A. People can't control each other - I can't control him now any more than he could control me when I decided to have an A.

Thank you, TheRoad - I appreciate your perpective. It is hard for me to be patient when I know in my heart what I want, and that's my DH. I am scared he won't find his way out of the anger and resentment, and I am angry at myself for putting him there. I know recovery is a long and winding road - a rollercoaster - I guess I just tend to get frustrated when the downs are so much more numerous than the ups, and the downs seem to be neverending. That's just my Taker grumbling...my Giver has to be the patient part of me. JC gave me some things to think about when my Taker is in full swing - "My Reasons" for doing what I am trying to do now:

1 - Because we've never learned this information before. If we learn it, we WILL be happier. The past will be buried under GOOD memories.
2 - This is only a "speck" of time in the grand scheme of things, but the benefits are huge.
3 - I don't want to look back in 10 years and regret giving up. I want to be able to look back in 10 years with a clean conscience and know that I tried everything I could.
4 - This is the best way for my BH to heal.
5 - We model a good marriage for our DD's.
6 - Because I love my BH. Because I want HIM. Because my strategy is to care for him as best as I can NOW.
7 - I do it for me, to help me heal from the guilt and shame.

JC said whenever my Taker is grumbling, to read over my reasons. Do it in the car before I walk in the door from work. In the morning when I wake up. Whenever I need reminding.


Terrifying but apt image. I'm terrified of being dropped. I think part of the process is trying to recover what I lost of me to the A - and believing that if I am dropped, I'll survive. It will not be the life I want to live, a life without DH, but regardless of what happens I have to be OK. I've got 2 little girls to live for.

WPG, don't just dump it on him.

Take some time, and make the offer; "I want to offer you the opportunity to go over what happened from beginning to end, and I will answer honestly any question you ask."

We had a few conversations on the issue, and actually went over the whole thing beginning to end a few times. Each time, my focus was on different details.

Allow him to control the flow of the conversation based what he feels he can handle and what he feels he needs to know.

It was a lot like peeling an onion for me. I had different layers I had to explore.

I have no more curiosity left. I have no more wild imaginations.

I still have images, but they are more based on what actually happened. Now, those conversations and explorations are done, and I can move on to other things.

WPG

"My thoughts today (well, for the last couple of days) have been along the lines of telling him I'd like to talk about the A, and then taking him through the 2 physical encounters step by step. Telling him he can stop me at any point, and asking him if he wants more details as I go. That's what is missing, the details. He knows the sex happened, but he hasn't pressed for details - his mind has made them up for him. It may be a help to meeting his need for O&H."

There is a difference from being O & H, and taking away the control from the BS to how much they want to know about the affair.

When BS�s ask how much detail should they ask. They are told to ask to what ever level they need/want to know, but that once something is asked then answered it can�t be untold. So the BS�s are cautioned to think first before they ask.

WPG, has your BH asked for such deep details before?

If he has you can offer that you can handle answering them now.

If your BH has not asked for such details before then I would not make such an offer now.

If you think your BH needs to talk about the affair you can offer to do so with the further offer to talk about any aspect of the affair that he wants to. This way the BH controls what SF details he wants to hear.

"Take some time, and make the offer; "I want to offer you the opportunity to go over what happened from beginning to end, and I will answer honestly any question you ask."

Great Advice as well.

Well, okay, wpg, except that you don't tell him you'd like to talk about the A; rather, as TheRoad indicated, you tell him that if HE wants to talk about the A -- either now or at a later time -- you are willing to do so. Let HIM ask the questions. Let HIM control the pace. Your contribution is to be willing to give him what he needs, whether that's big gulps or little sips.

Maybe it's not the physical details that are the most important missing info for your H; maybe he wants to try to find out what your mindset was. For instance, over the course of weeks & months, my wife wanted to know where & when, sure, but more so, beyond the "what," she asked me stuff like "Where were the children when you were with her?", or "What were you thinking as you were going to meet her?" or "Whose idea was it to get a hotel for the first time?" and a bunch of other questions related to my state-of-mind. They were questions for which I had answers that, while truthful, could never be any more than partially satisfying. In hindsight now, I think that, at least subconsciously, maybe my wife wanted to know whether I truly "got" & understood just how morally messed up I had been at every stage of the A. I think it was important for her to feel that I had some baseline appreciation of that before she could start feeling comfortable with me again.

Thank you - got it! I will offer him the opportunity and let him take things from there. He asked certain details very early on (he wanted to know if there was any oral involved), he asked for other things later (did I have the big O). You guys are correct in that I don't know whether or not he wants to talk about more details of the A. It has to be something he wants, and he obtains in the way he wants it. All I know is he's stuck on O&H and I want to be able to meet that for him.

Wulff,

No don't just offer to answer his questions. Here is why! You have lied to him repeatedly, he doesn't know what he doesn't know. So he will feel that while you answered his questions, you probably did not answer questions about things he did not know enough to ask in the first place.

Did you read my post to you? Do you understand that the issue is within himself at least as much as with you?

I would sit down and write down at least a fairly detailed timeline about the whole thing. Meeting OM, the beginning of the affair, some details of where and certainly how long each part of this went. Outline your basic thoughts then, during false recovery, now. Give him something to work with in his questions.

Then it is often recommended that the BS write down the questions he wants to know the answer to, why he wants to know it, and how it will help him. He should set it aside for a day or so, and then review. If he still feels the need to ask the question, then have him give you the list, the why's and the reasons and you answer them honestly. If there are many, set aside a specific time each week to address say an hour or hour and a half worth of questions.

This lets him see what he wants and it gives you something concrete to work on. Your outline of the affair, should cover all major aspects so that he will understand that he knows what he doesn't know and can ask questions accordingly.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you, JL - yes, I did read your post - and your advice, as always, is excellent! The feelings that he's "second choice" have come up in our conversations (when we have them) often. I did talk about it with JC which was one of the reasons she suggested the new wedding ring. I guess I am not doing well at letting him know he's not second choice in any way - he's not a "consolation prize" for me. Do you think that part of the problem is the ways I show it are not resonating with him? I'm fairly comfortable with showing affection - I've tried to hit all the different "love language" ways of showing it - and tried to make admiration (admiration was ranked higher than affection for him) part of affection, but I don't think I'm doing it right or doing enough of it. I've asked him to give me feedback on how I am meeting his needs, how he'd like them met, and etc. but I don't get feedback. He's told me how he doesn't know what I do at work - and so much of my A was conducted during work hours, communicating with OM - so I do try to communicate with H throughout the day, texts and emails...it's ironic that I spend more effort during my workday now on this forum and reading books and trying to find ways to improve our marriage, things that H doesn't know about, I guess - but it's more effort than I ever put into anything with OM. It's become my full-time job, to the point I'm putting in only a minimal effort in the office these days. I don't know...I need help to show H what is in my heart in a way he will understand - that what's in my heart is that he's not just my first choice, he's my ONLY choice. That he is RIGHT for me. God chose us for each other for a reason - and it wasn't God that had a hand in OM crossing my path again.

I guess too I am confused about what to do to ensure his need for O&H is met. JL, we've done the timeline - and I have also written about how I felt during the A and the FR, what was going on in my head. In my eyes, all he doesn't have are any additional details that he felt like were missing. In his, he doubts I was truthful so he thinks there are events missing from the timeline - does that make sense? That's why I originally wanted to have that conversation with him, which I was advised to then just make the offer of answering any questions he has...I've done that before too, but he asks broad questions like "Is there anything you aren't telling me?" kinds of questions.

Help...just, help...I don't know what to do! I know I've been a little distant from him this week - I've probably given him more space and haven't tried to be as close, and that's my fault for nursing hurt over the whole ring incident. I've still tried to avoid LBs but I haven't done well this week at meeting H's intimate ENs. I have to work harder at getting over my fear of rejection because it is getting in the way of meeting DH's needs.

WPG,

He asked certain details very early on (he wanted to know if there was any oral involved), he asked for other things later (did I have the big O)

Others may differ, but as a guy I have to know the sexual details, and orgasm, and number of orgasms is very high on the list. A guys orgasm is a given, but a womans orgasm and intensity of orgasm equals passion and animal attraction.

Oral sex or not, is huge too, I honestly cannot believe a man could continue to live with a woman and NOT know the details.

God Bless
Gamma

Agreed, G.

I asked the same questions, WPG.

Is there a such thing as BS fog? It mattered to me at that moment, but now I don't care.

It did affect SF.

I can only speak for myself on this, but the other men/BHs can chime in if they feel the same;

A huge part of SF for me is satisfying my wife. The A felt like a threat to my ability to do so. After 10 years, I know every face, every sound, every movement my wife goes through when she is enjoying SF, and I know what it looks like when she is not.

I know her kiss.

Now, I have the image of OM delivering what was my exclusive privilege for all this time, what I thought would always be my exclusive privilege.

Still early in recovery right now, so sometimes I trigger during SF. It's HORRIBLE.

It's my competitive spirit, and my focus that, for me, fulfillment is met when I connect with and pleasure my W that allows me to carry on.

She catches it sometimes. But, I try my damndest to not let it break me.

Today, I live in the little moments.

WPG,

You asked First of all this is one of those things where the genie cannot be put back in the bottle.

Let me offer some thoughts but not advice. I hope others will chime in and discuss these thoughts as well as you. I am sort of a take charge kind of person, that is once I have decided what direction I want to go so bear in mind that this is my bias.

I think the truth is that during your affair he was probably not even second choice. You were not thinking of him you were thinking primarily of OM. You might as well tell him that...right up front. My point in this soliloquy is to point out that your best bet may be the direct approach. It lays this in his lap. Now he is the Bs and he is deeply hurt, but my guess is that if he is like many of us guys, what he needs is some direct honest talk from you. Once you have done this straight talk then you treat him like you do want him in your life and no one else. BUT, you need to expect him to start treating you well as well. I know that is hard, but often knowing that he is needed will help him rise up.

If you have done the time line, then I would suggest you offer to answer any questions he has asked but to do it in the manner I suggested. Why? Well it helps prevent him getting more information than he wants and the second and third part give him and you a better insight into what he is seeking besides just words and pure data. Often these questions are far deeper than "did you give him oral sex?" What he wants to know is how emotionally committed to him were you? Did you do things for him that you would not do for your H? Was he better than me, therefore you were willing to do more? How can I really match up to someone you risked so much for?

Did you get that out of "did you give him oral sex?" You need to consider that, which is why the how will this help you, do you really need this parts of the written questions are so important.

I hope this engenders a healthy discussion and enables you to put together a good plan. Our goal is not to confuse you but offer you as many options as possible accompanied by our reasoning so that you can make a better decision on how recover your marriage.

I hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

EXACTLY!

Now, I also asked the "big O" question. At the time, the idea was that, with a woman, it would only be possible if she was emotionally committed to the situation.

It's just not the truth. The truth is that there are several variations of orgasm, and in my pain and anger I chose to forget that most simply, orgasm can be achieved mechanically for women just as it can for men.

It's like implying rape isn't rape if a female victim orgasms. If she orgasms, well, she must have wanted it. Just due to the biological mechanisms for sex, orgasm happens.


Though, I may want to argue the second choice statement. It wasn't the OP taking the first choice, it was the WS. Self was the first choice - chasing that bubble world. Stuck in the snow-globe, and not wanting to let it go.

WPG, I have also kind of thought of an explanation for your SF frustrations.

Consider Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

If you click the link, and examine the image, here is what you will notice; that sex in and of itself is a basic physiological need, and that sexual intamacy is another - separate - need.

So, in the situation where he will go through when he initiates, he is meeting his basic physiological need, yet he is at this time not meeting the need for intimacy.

Why? Well, the way the hierarchy operates, is that - unless there is dysfunction - needs higher in the pyramid cannot be met until those lower in the pyramid are met.

Sexual intimacy is a Love and Belonging need, and below that is safety. Safety of; morality, family, health, property (among others).

He is stuck in the second tier right now. That means that meeting all basic needs above that tier is secondary until his feeling of safety is restored.

THAT is what the MB program is building into - that is what you are trying to achieve.

The A threatened his sense of safety, and now EVERYTHING above that in the hierarchy is compromised and secondary to restoring safety.

Exactly WHAT has been compromised? Morality, creativity, spontaneity, problem solving, lack of prejudice, acceptance of facts (self-actualization), self-esteem, confidence, achievement, respect of others, respect by others (esteem), friendship, family, sexual intamacy (love and belonging), and the aforementioned safety needs.

Does it now make sense why an A is such a painful blow to our lives?

THIS is why the O&H need HAS to be met, before he can move forward, he NEEDS to address his basic need for safety before he is able to address ANY OTHER NEED.

The need for safety is met through EPs, NC, O&H, and UA. The feeling of "2nd choice" is a threat to that need that needs to be eradicated before the next tier can be rebuilt.

Thank you for that, JL. I have laid all this in his lap. I told him last night and again this morning that he is my choice. That I am the one who failed in all of this, but I need his help, because if he doesn't communicate his needs with me then I cannot successfully meet them.

HHH, the info on Maslow was very interesting as well. We actually teach this concept in our basic training classes as it relates to dealing with offenders.


I thought about this. Essentially I am a "booty call" for him, if he's not reaching any level of intimacy with me. On one level I am offended. On the other hand, I still can't get over feeling like I deserve to be treated like crap. Go figure.

I am not having a good day. It kills me that he refuses any kind of communication with me at all. I've got some medical issues going on and am scheduled for a test tomorrow (I threw up blood recently and am having an endoscopy tomorrow). I also contacted the polygraph examiner who'd been recommended to me today. I passed her info along to H so he could contact her and talk to her about the issues he needs to know. She can do the test this week. I want to do it and then I want to move forward. If a poly doesn't do it, then maybe this marriage is just not going to ever be reconciled and I just need to face that.

I'm sorry if my responses don't seem very well thought out or detailed today. I'm tired, I'm drained, and I am to the point that I think H just wants to be a roommate and will never let his guard down enough to even try to fall in love with me again.

Edited to add: Maybe the poly is what he needs to make him feel safe. I don't know anymore.

WPG,

Your husband is having a hard time believing that you had sex just twice with the OM.
Seeing you and OM were HS sweethearts, he lives 10 min away and you have a high libido..he questions that.
You have to agree it sounds hard to believe. Couple that with a FR where you were very convincing you were being genuine, the man's head is all over the place.
You may be tired and drained and that's understandable. You have been working real hard since the FR to be open and honest.

Imagine how he feels. His wife had an affair with an old HS boyfriend that lives not too far away. He's broken and doesn't know what to believe. I really hope the poly can help put some of this to rest. Good Luck.

exbf/OM lives ten minutes away?

Time to move far away. Put up the for sale sign and put a huge buffer zone between your BH and the OM. How can a BH feel safe in his own home when the OM can slip in at a momnents notice.

This BH does not have a home he can feel safe in.

10 minutes makes things to easy for an affair to restart.

WPG,

Or expose to OMW, perhaps THEY will then move.

As Patton said, the duty of a soldier is not to die for their country, but to get the enemy to die for their country.

OM4s place is on the way to work and every time I pass it I feel a small twinge of rage.

God Bless
Gamma

I know it sounds hard to believe that I had sexual intercourse with OM only 2 times. And it's pointless to defend myself on this forum. I've told him the truth and he chooses not to believe it. Even though he has told me before "I choose to believe you. I choose to forgive you." He doesn't and I understand why he doesn't. I sent his the info on the polygraph examiner I called and gave him her # as she said she would be glad to talk to him. I think at this point it doesn't matter if he says, "No, I don't need you to do it" - I think I need to do it anyway. And if the poly makes no difference, then like I said before, I don't think anything will.

I do not want to move. My parents live close by, I'm happy with the kids' school, our jobs are here. However, if he commits to recovery but says moving is the absolute only way that he'll continue this marriage, then I will move. I love him enough. I want him enough.

I don't give a rat's patootie where the OM lives now, there will be NO more contact and therefore no chance for this A to restart. If OM contacted me I'd immediately tell H and I'd consider slapping him with a restraining order to boot. The thought of OM - of being with OM - makes me sick. I'm ready for H to expose to OMW. I want this to get - if not behind us completely, then somehow woven into the background of our lives so that we can focus on rebuilding our marriage. I miss my DH.

I think, though, that the poly is going to be pretty much the last possible thing I can do to try and save this marriage. Obviously nothing else I have done up to this point has helped or worked. I destroyed everything. He hates me. I'll accept that. I won't fight him for the house or even child support. I won't even fight him on custody of the children if he believes I am an unfit mother after what I've done. I took enough from him and I won't take anything more.

Thanks, Gamma. I'm ready. DH is hesitating b/c she just had a baby, apparently. We have not discussed it (exposure or OMW having a baby), BTW, I learned this before I stopped reading his thread.

I still don't know how DH found out OMW was preggers or having a baby. When I said I had no more contact with OM, I meant it. I counted backwards on my fingers, though. OM would have had to have gotten his wife pregnant in January of this year. So basicially when all h3ll broke loose in my house, and H was contacting OM, and OM called me in January whining about "Please get your H to leave me alone," that he was probably frantically trying to get his wife preggers in the hopes that when the crap hit the fan at his house, she'd stay with him. What a miserable excuse for a human being. And now he's sitting there, probably pleased as punch, having gotten away with an A, thinking he's secured his wife's loyalty with a new baby. Yes, I want her to know. Regardless of how my marriage ends up, she deserves the truth about her POS "husband."

BTW, I emailed the info about the polygraph to DH earlier. I have not had a response yet. I think I am going to do it regardless of what he says - it would be better if he'd talk to the examiner and understand the scope of a poly first and write down exactly what issues he needs to know. The way she explained it to me, you can't ask about more than one "issue" per test - so if there are multiple issues, you would need more than one test. She recommended no more than 2 tests in one day. I think I can pretty much come up with the biggies that H is stuck on: the number of times I had sex with OM, did OM come to our home at all, did he go out of town with me to my work conference last fall, did we get together the weekend he took the girls to the beach. So if he will not give me an answer on the poly, I will find the money on my own and I will set it up based on those issues.

Will your BH come here to post?


Be careful how you approach this. If there is any sincerity to your words, then you should not fight BH but also don't walk away from your children either...that is plain messed up and not what most BSs want unless the WS continues to be wayward vs getting a grip. You can forgo alimony but to say you wouldn't even ask for child support is foolish too. Your kids should not be penalized or used as ping pong balls.

Many WSs make the mistake of thinking actions such as these are Just Compensation...and they can be to a degree but they can also be seen as a WS dumping everything on the BS who already has to deal with a number of emotions. So hold off on any big declarations.

"I know it sounds hard to believe that I had sexual intercourse with OM only 2 times. And it's pointless to defend myself on this forum."

It does not matter if we believe you or don't.

The point is many a WW, WH slid back into an affair because the OM lived and or worked close to the WS.

Even if it could be guaranteed that you will never break NC.

How is this going to guarantee that you, BH, your kids will never run into the OM when you live that close?

Many a BS find that having the OP live close by to be a constant threat to their marriage. Thus halting the recovery process.

Yes many people would lose money to sell their house now. Yes many people if they were to up and move may not be ale to find a good job in their new town.

However you do not want to move away from your family. Like the kids schools. You can give countless reasons why not to move.

The reason to move is security from having peace of mind.

You danced, now you complain that you have to pay the band by moving.

You may get away from moving but what have you done to isolate you and your family from the OM?

Move to next town over so you never have to pass OM�s to get to families homes. Change jobs to get you farther from OM.

Have you changed all phone no. for you, BH, kids, emails, new home without forwarding address so OM can�t know?

If you don't mind me asking;

What were your thoughts during the 5 months of FR?
I am not asking this to be facetious, you seem to be very remorseful at this point and doing all you can.

He does. He posts in SAA under broken2009.



No, I wouldn't walk away from my children. I couldn't do that. I have read posts on here from former BH's who get divorced and then get hosed in visitation. I couldn't do that to my H. He's am incredible father. And I wouldn't see a point in asking for child support. I make a decent salary - H and I make about the same, well, a little less for me now I quit the PT job, although I'd probably have to pick it back up if we end up getting a D - and with some downsizing in our lifestyle the kids and I would be fine. It would be great if he'd keep them on his insurance through work as it's better than mine, I think that would be more than enough. I'd never ask him for alimony. That would just be mean.


The EPs I put in place are a few pages back. Still have same cell phone #'s, although I offered to switch mine with DH's. DH has access to the phone, has my voice mail password (both to cell phone and my office phone at work). I had a cell phone for work which I turned in and no longer use as DH couldn't access it. He has all email passwords. My personal email is the same but OM's email address is blocked. My work email address is new (DH has access to that also as well as he can log into our timekeeping system online). No more social networking sites. No more part-time job at night. I currently work in a secure facility so it is not a place OM could freely walk into.



That's a fair question.

When DH first confronted me about the text messages between the OM and me, I lied and said we were friends. But I knew that the A would have to end. I think I thought I could be friends with OM at first. DH was of course suspicious and continued to snoop. He found evidence of chats online and emails, more and more evidence came out and it was pretty damning.

I remember the day he confronted me. We'd actually just gotten home from church. I can remember the clothes I had on. And quite simply, I panicked. I remember sitting in the living room and him staring at me, asking me did I sleep with OM. I remember blurting out "One time!" and he walked out, I followed, crying, begging, and I made the decision to go back on what I said. I told him no, I never slept with him. That yes, I went to his house and it came close, but that I left...blah blah. Just lies. I swore on my children's lives that I had not slept with OM. I believed that if he knew the truth about what I'd done, that he'd leave me. So I made the decision to lie that day in August and I stuck to it until January. I don't know how the wayward fog is for others, but for me that day in August I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I wanted my husband, not the OM.

And during that time I tried everything. I tried to be the best wife I could be. I had nothing else to do with OM. DH and I did Bible studies together. We prayed together. Yes, I sat there, praying with him, hearing the pain that was in his heart because he had so many doubts. And I kept lying to him. No, it wasn't easy and I know it was wrong. I was absolutely terrified that I would lose him. Part of me thought that if I could convince him that I'd only had an EA, that his pain would be less. That knowing the truth about what I'd done would hurt him too terribly and that I needed to protect him from that. Of course I know now how wrong I was...I lied because I was a coward. How long could I have kept it up? Could I have gone to my grave with it? I honestly don't know. There were many times I felt the urge to just tell him, just get it over with, but I never did. I let myself keep right on lying.

Also, shaken, our M pre-A, while not horrible, was not the kind of M it should have been. We related more like roommates than anything - did a terrible job of meeting each others' needs. For a long time I had felt alone and rejected by my H, but I did not do a good job of communicating to him that my needs weren't being met. During the FR, I had the husband I had always wanted DH to be. No, not the pain that he felt - besides that. He was romantic, he was sexually interested in me, he was affectionate and attentive, he sent me affectionate emails and texts almost every day ("Good morning, beautiful..." - he used to call me "beautiful" when we were dating and I hadn't heard it in years). We went on dates, we did fun things together, we cuddled on the couch and we had real conversations. We became very sexually adventurous and did things together we'd never done before - things I'd never done with anyone else or ever thought I'd want to do. He would hold me as we fell asleep each night and I felt so safe and so happy...I am ashamed to say that I wanted this to last forever and I thought I had to lie to keep it going.

What it all boils down to is that I was selfish. And now he sees the FR as an even worse betrayal, because he opened up to me in a way he never had before. And all the "happiness" I thought I had was based on a lie. Now he sees me as not only unfaithful, but manipulative and cruel. It doesn't matter what my supposed "reasons" were for lying during the FR. It's a shame I feel like I've learned a lot about how to have a good - no, a great - marriage and I've learned it all probably too late.

Thank you for answering my question.

The real truth came out in Jan right?

Did your BH keep asking you for the truth based on information he found investigating?

WPG, it seems you and my FWW have similar tastes in scum.

Though, hers wasn't an old HS BF.

A question; do you often or ever tell your BH that "just want to move forward" line?

I got it a lot. I requested to stop hearing it. It's just a candy-coated "just get over it" to my ears. Don't talk moving forward, act moving forward.

I know you are, but your word with him is pretty... bleh, right now.

A lot doesn't get through, and a lot that does get through gets improperly redirected.

I'm just relating my own experience here, and I'm in deep to integrating MB.

yes - the real truth came out in January - that was DDay #2 for us.

H did keep snooping - found more information. He couldn't get over his doubts. Confronted me and I finally broke down. The day he confronted me, I admitted to having sex with OM once. That was the night he packed a bag, flew into a rage, and left the house. The next day he came back home and we sat down and talked. I finally told him I'd had sex with OM twice, which is the truth. He was very calm and patient, total change from the night before. He heard me out, looked me full in the face, and said "I forgive you."

Since then we've been through several talks where we've walked through what happened, to where he has the dates now for each time I saw OM, places, and the dates and places we had sex. He asked about some details but not all, as I have mentioned in earlier posts. He recovered so much information (he's super good with computers, and we WS's are not very good at covering our tracks) that he had a LOT to dwell on and develop doubts. Yes, a lot of the chats that OM and I had were sexual in nature. Thinking back on what was said between OM and me, coupled with the fact that I lied for so long, makes it difficult for him to believe that there were only 2 sexual encounters. Yes, the OM lives in the next town over, so agreed, there was proximity there which again calls what I say into question. DH said when he confronted OM, that OM told him he had been to our home. Now, when I talked to OM the day he called me in January, I asked OM that question, and he denied he had said anything of the sort. DH also said that when he confronted OM, he told him he was parked a mile down the road from his house and was on his way over there unless OM told DH the truth. OM said (in January) that DH told him he was not out for revenge, that he was a "good Christian man," just wanted the truth, etc. So, obviously, someone is lying about what happened when this particular confrontation occurred, and I believe it is OM. I told DH that he could ask OM to give details of our house, that anyone who had been here would be able to describe it (dumb idea, as why would OM tell the truth anyway).

DH has also saved copies of pretty much all the evidence and I know at one point he was reviewing it frequently. He had copies at work, which he told me he destroyed, and copies at home...we supposedly burned all of it together earlier this year, but then in June he emails me copies of a chat and email exchange between me and OM he had saved.

Anyway, in February of this year he was telling me he believed me and forgave me. I was just going back through my old emails from DH since the truth came out...not a good thing for me to do as I can see it's been months since he told me he loved me. I have an email from DH from last February that says, "I love you. Will you run away with me?" It makes me cry. Since then, the "I believe you/I forgive you" and even the "I love you" emails have stopped.

I deleted all the emails and texts DH and I sent each other during the FR. I did it in a fit of anger at myself because it was all based on lies.

Wulff,

Just thinking, but I wonder if your H saw what you said, if it might make things clearer for him. You said

I don't know if he will believe it, but if this is really the truth and it is how you feel/felt I think needs to see this in writing. What "turned you on" the most? I'm betting his opening up to you was #1, he shared himself with you didn't he? #2 were the terms of endearment right? #3 Were the "real converstations", right? And yes "sexually adventurous" was also something that ignited your fire, right? All of this occured AFTER your affair or when it was really winding down.

What does it suggest to you? My guess you fell back inlove with your H. So how did OM compare to your H during the FR?

Please think about this carefully.

God Bless,

JL

Scum is right. OM is scum. I think sometimes DH thinks that if our M ends, I'll be running back to OM. No. I have boundaries now. I know who I am, and I know who I want. Scum ain't it.



I try not to - because I think it is contrary to what Dr. H says about "Just Compensation." You can't just "move forward" and "get over it." I focus on telling him that I am not giving up on him or our marriage - that he is worth everything to me. That I want to be the source of his greatest happiness, not his pain. That I want to be an expert in meeting his needs. I try to focus on having a romantic and fulfilling marriage. I tell him that I have made my choice, and it is HIM, it is our marriage. But lately I've been trying to also tell him more that I need his help to do that - I need his feedback and so forth. I haven't begun to even address getting my needs met right now. I'm just kind of sucking it up and smacking my Taker in the head every so often to get it to shut up.

The overall similarities between M stories here is downright frightening. I think this is what has drawn me to you and BH's recovery. I try to pass on what little I have to him, because I KNOW where he is.

And what you have to say is enlightening to me due to the echoes of my own FWW.

Hearing her words echoed by another soul helps, because... well, frankly her word is dirt, even when I DON'T want it to be so.

Bah. I'm trying to finish Nursing school and recover my marriage at the same time. What a croc.

Remember you can't do that forever. When your Taker starts rearing its ugly head as you try to Plan A your spouse back into the marriage, you need to pay attention to at least what it's asking for. Don't demand it out of your husband, but see if you can brainstorm a way to satisfy your Taker's needs, too.

I've hesitated to mention this in your thread because I don't want to derail it, but often if a betrayed spouse experiences Contrast Effect, their wayward spouse looks even worse. Is it possible that he is experiencing this contrast effect in some fashion? A sympathetic female ear at work? Masturbation to pornography? A female recreational companion?

Don't accuse, don't demand, but keep your eyes and ears open for the signs of contrast effect at work. Contrast Effect withdraws Love Units from your account without your knowledge; that's why it's so insidious. It's what happened to your husband during your affair.

My stepbrother took his own life three weeks ago. At the heart of his misery was his response to his wife's disclosure of an affair: he intensified his relationship with other women in his life, one responded sympathetically to his plight, and suddenly a marriage that looked salvageable went downhill fast. He concealed this relationship from everyone, and only unveiled her to family and friends a week after he delivered divorce papers to his spouse and moved out.

Contrast Effect can be at play even if he's not aware of it. Watch his behavior closely, but only for your own edification, not as a source of conflict in your relationship.

Double post to highlight echoes.

I have heard all this. It's not meaningless, but it's got a lot of defensive posture to get through. I need to hear it, even when nothing in me will allow me to believe it.

Make sense?

OK - lots to respond to so I am going to make a couple different posts!


JL, as usual you are dead-on. During our M, my H always had this wall up around him. He was just not a very open person, even with me - I remember sometimes how out of the blue he'd say something and it would suprise me, because I'd never known that about him before. During the FR, my top needs were being met (hadn't taken the EN questionnaire, since I had yet to find MB, but looking back now I can see it). Affection, admiration, conversation, SF...he was hitting all the biggies for me and doing it well. So well that yes, I'd definitely say that I fell back in love with my DH. What I'd gotten from OM could not even begin to compare with what I had with DH. He'd started the process - really his Plan A, without knowing it - before he discovered the text messages (or at least before he confronted me). We'd had a huge fight not long after I'd had sex with OM the second time and the next day DH sends me this email, how he didn't know what he'd done to hurt me so badly, and I did see a difference beginning in him. It wasn't quite up to the intensity it became during the FR, but it was enough to start breaking through the fog I was in. I remember that at the time I was simply confused, because I'd tried to convince myself that DH didn't care about me yet here he was showing me that he did.

I should show you the 20-page "novel" I wrote DH - he had asked me for details and so I started writing. For me, I wrote about who I was - how I'd gotten to this point, I wrote about not only my relationship with OM back in HS but other men I'd been with before DH, men who had used me physically and tossed me aside. I came to equate sex with love in a lot of ways. I was very needy and wanted attention and affection, and would let guys treat me like crap in order to get it (or a semblance of it). I wrote about how I felt about DH in our marriage, the little hurts that I kept from him and how I allowed the seed of resentment to grow inside me. How I felt when I saw OM again for the first time in years, how it made me feel when he pursued me. I did give him the details of the encounters I had with OM but it wasn't enough detail for H - I had the location of one restaurant correct but got the name wrong, so he Googled it and said there wasn't one of those restaurants there, for example. I wrote about how I felt during the FR and why I felt the need to lie - so he's heard it before. I was hurt by his response to the letter ("I was expecting more") and I ended up taking it and throwing it in the driveway and burning it. The next thing I did was the timeline - bare bones, dates from my calendar, lunch here, lunch there, when I went to his house, etc. That was more in line with what he'd requested. Later on we did the timeline with the credit card statements, cell phone log, and so on.

So yes, I'd agree that I fell back in love with DH. In fact, I'm so incredibly in love with DH now that I'm in even more pain, if that makes sense. I've done a pretty good job of protecting my LB$ that he had built up but it is still taking some pretty deep hits. If I wasn't in love with him anymore, I wouldn't keep trying.

I don't know if him seeing this again would help. I just approached him and asked if he'd gotten the info I'd sent him today on the polygraph and asked if we had the money. He said no, but then clarified that we wouldn't until we got paid again. I asked him if it was something he wanted me to continue to look into, and he asked me why, and I said so he could believe that I was telling him the truth. He said "Do you think it will help?" and I said only he could decide that, that I am not sure what is going to help. He changed the subject and walked away from the conversation.

I know...it's been hard. I told myself I would start trying to focus a little more on me, on doing some things for myself that would make me feel better (healthy things!) - like getting back into running and working out, I bought some hair color to take care of the grays, new nail polish, some new clothes, etc. Read good books. Eat chocolate. JC said it was OK to do things for myself, but she also emphasized healthy things - things that, for example, would address the issue of appearance/attractive spouse, for example, so that DH was also benefitting. In my last session with the counselor, he'd mentioned that as well - to concentrate on my girls, to get affection from them which would help to meet my need for affection. It can take my mind off things for a while, but I still have needs that aren't getting met by my H.


I don't know where it could be coming from, if it's occurring. Of course as he's said, he doesn't know what I do at work, and I don't know what he does there either. He's never been a very open person - other than this forum, he's really only confided in a few other male friends that I know of, and this forum. I've never had reason to suspect him of viewing porn, and if he was I'm sure he'd hide the evidence if it was on the computer or anything like that. But I'll be observant.



Thank you for the cautionary tale, DNM. I read your post about your stepbrother, and I was very sorry to hear about your loss. When I read it, I have to say that my first thought was one of fear for my DH. As a FWW (if I've earned the "F" now) I don't think I can ever possibly understand the pain of a BS. But you read stories every day in the news about incidents where it comes out later, after an act of violence, that someone involved was being unfaithful. And yet we are still such fools as to step into affairs, in spite of seeing the consequences, even second hand, through other family members or friends, or vicariously through a news story.

HHH, do you mean that it has to break through your defensive posture? If I've got that right, I think I understand. It's the walls that get put up when one spouse is in withdrawal that don't allow it to make any deposits in your LB$. And when we, as FWWs, have essentially made our words meaningless, all we have are our actions. They say actions speak louder than words, but I still need to find me some kind of super-duty megaphone one of these days.



I am glad you are helping to support my H. One of the things that was frustrating for him, he told me, was not knowing anyone who had successfully been through this situation he could talk to. Everyone that we know that has been through infidelity ended up divorced. In my aunt's case, she's married to her affair partner. Thankfully she lives about 10 hours away or I am sure I'd be subjected to her "advice" on our situation.

And my sympathies for trying to complete nursing school at the same time...I can hardley wrap my head around anything else these days, so I know adding school on top of it makes things overwhelming at times.

At this point, I'm looking at things from kind of a 12-step view.

Recovery will be a lifetime. The work will have to be done every day, all day.

That does not mean things will not ever get better, it just means that you cannot fall back into hold habits.

And, yes, I am talking about a defensive wall around the BS.

WPG, don't take his early forgiveness so seriously. I have yet to let the words slip from my mouth. I think he let his mouth write a check his patootie couldn't quite cash, even if he didn't know it.

It's not that I don't want to, but at this point I still don't understand what that means. And, as DoNoMo has graciously reminded me; forgiveness is not for me to give, it is for her to earn.

I hope he can crack out of his introverted cycle. Not just for you, but for him.

If your husband had done the same thing you have done to him, in the manner you did it, would you give him a second chance?

Before you answer..think of all you have done and the lengths you went to doing them. Would you give him what you want him to give you?

Not saying this isn't a good question. Not saying that it's not a good idea to try to "walk in the other person's shoes."

I am saying, that the thought process involved in trying to imagine versus facing the reality is a TOTALLY different thing.

I told my FWW a long, elaborate story; an imaginary affair that I could have, in actuality, engaged in. Something that could have within all reason happen.

It didn't.

She could begin to imagine how I felt, but could not actually perceive it because it was not real.

It's like trying to imagine a broken arm when you have never had a broken arm.

You might have an idea, but you don't know what it actually feels like, nor do you know how you would actually act or think facing the reality of it.

This is pretty basic in Dr. Harley's writings; most people think that they would just walk away if they faced their spouse having an affair, yet when most face the reality, they would rather recover their marriage.

Good question and good response...HHH is right. I've sat down and "imagined" H having an A and the thought of it kills me. But HHH is right - imagining it can't capture the true depth of how my H (or any BS) actually feels. In the same way, my H can't know with certainty what is in my heart - he can't possibly know the depth of my remorse or if it's genuine, because of the way I betrayed and lied to him.

In my thoughts, if I tried to imagine me being in his shoes, and him in mine...if he felt what I do now in his heart...if he was remorseful, if there was NC, if I could see how hard he was trying, then yes, I'd want to recover my marriage. The same reasons JC and I came up with as a FWW would still apply - that MB would be the best way for both of us to heal, that I would not want to look back in 10 years and have regret over not trying everything I possibly could to save my marriage, that we would be modeling a good marriage for our girls, and so on. Whichever side of the equation you are on, the recovery process is not an easy road, no one has ever said that it is, so I am not saying it would be easy.

But I know that what I want most of all is a passionate, romantic M with my DH.

I've read a lot of Dr. H's stuff and he's written about WWs vs. WHs - how recovery for a BW was nearly impossible unless her WH came to her, hat in hand, with remorse and repentance, and how WWs often are different (for example, in the Sue and Jon story in SAA, Sue never apologized to Jon). All I know is for me, I DO feel remores and repentance...I regret what I did with every bone in my body, every breath I take. If I had the power to take it all back, I would do it in a heartbeat. An empty, trashy, selfish, repulsive A cannot possibly compare in any way with what I could have - CAN have, if he chooses - with my dear husband.

But that's the crux of it - IF HE CHOOSES. I've already made my choice. I can't make his for him, no matter what I imagine my choice would be in his position.

I hope that makes sense.

Thanks for your response triple H.

WPG,
Yes it makes sense
I have asked you these questions with a purpose.
I see now that during your FR you never contacted OM, it was a FR because the truth was not all out there.

It is the lies after the affair that destroys the marriage more than the affair itself.
I know that you have learned very much during this.
I believe that you would be hard pressed to make this bad choice of having an affair and trickle truthing again in your lifetime.

No you cannot really say what you could do if your husband did the same.
Your response was that if he could look in your heart and see the remorse and how you felt. If there was NC and he was trying as you were then you would reconcile.

His problem is he believed you were being genuine and you were not and now he doesn't know what to believe.
I think he wants to believe you, but he feels like a fool for giving you his all and opening up and the situation was not as it seemed.
He is scared..yes scared to open up to you again and have the devastation happen all over again.

I believe you are genuinely remorseful and are doing all you can right now. I'm not the one that matters though.
This will be a long journey. This could take years for him to fully trust you again.
The taker in you has to be dormant or satisfied with other things like hobbies or whatever other recreation you find satisfying. His walls are going to be up for a long time and if you are not patient enough, your marriage could be over.

I know that you may want the poly to be convincing enough to move ahead and if it isn't are you ready just to give up?

Your husband is still at home. He hasn't left. Some men leave right away, but there is still love for you in him. He has it walled up because he feels if he lets you see it..he will be taken advantage of again.
Dr. Harley's method works quite a bit, sometimes it doesn't. If there is true love in the people involved there is always a chance.

I think your husband really loves you. It's just going to take time for him to believe in you and your marriage again. I hope he does. As long as you continue doing what you are doing. But don't you be the one to give up. The affair in a sense is giving up on the marriage. so technically you gave up on the marriage, he never did. If you can, let him be the one to say I can't. He feels you already told him that.

WPG, I don't know if I have ever posted to you, but I encourage you to do one thing:

Get intimately acquainted with Dr. Harley's information and the MB articles, books, etc. Then filter every comment, piece of advice, offhand remark through that. If it is a helpful posting based on marriage building, soak it up like the sun (like DNM's posts). If it comes from ANY OTHER PLACE of reference....pretend you never read it. Seriously. There's a lot of vicarious spewing going on right now on various threads. Don't let that become a distraction, and don't get caught up in trying to convince strangers who are determined not to be convinced. Build YOUR M using these principals. Ignore the rest.

Seriously.

WPG, I have read through your posts and you seem genuine in your remorse. I hope things work out between you and your H. As a new BS I am struggling with many of the same issues, and it's interesting to read your points for a different point of view.

In and of itself, acknowledging the fact that we simply cannot fathom the experience of another human being is wisdom.

For instance, in my example of a broken arm, even if we were to experience a broken arm, how we experience that is unique to each individual.

It is not wrong to try to formulate an idea of how someone thinks or feels in a situation, it's simple empathy. It's almost unavoidable when it comes to the people we love.

It is when we project our notion of that experience on to another, or how we expect another to act/think/behave/feel that we tread the waters of DJ.

I can't even to begin what my FWW is going through. Sometimes I feel that SHE has been more hurt and destroyed by this entire experience than I have. That is entirely possible, I cannot deny it, and it would be a DJ and selfish to boot.

Thanks for the endorsement, lurioosi2 Following Dr. Harley's advice has worked so well in my marriage that I'm reluctant to suggest a different course of action for others. The resentment I always felt about "losing every argument" with my wife years ago is gone. Mainly because we don't argue anymore; we negotiate.

In fact, we spoke about that last night. I mentioned that, years ago, I felt as if I always lost every argument and could never get my way. "I felt the same way!" she replied with a laugh. And it's true: we both felt like we lost every argument because we followed the "dueling dictators" strategy. Every victory would be swallowed by defeat in the next confrontation, and we'd only remember the defeats.

WPG, you're doing what you need to do. The key ingredient here is time. I am concerned about the somewhat downhill-slide I see coming out occasionally, both in your ability to Plan A your husband and in his ability to feel compensated and respond to your attention. But through that downhill slide, I see very occasional rays of sunshine slipping through, showing that your tender ministrations are getting through to him.

Keep meeting his needs. Keep avoiding Love Busters. Keep up your Extraordinary Precautions, and negotiate new ones if you and your husband need them to feel safe. Spend a minimum of 15 hours meeting each other's Intimate Emotional Needs every week (Sexual Fulfillment, Recreational Companionship, Intimate Conversation, Affection), and shoot for 30 hours. It takes that time together, and your trickle-truth (I'm not certain I'd call it a False Recovery, though you do) did a lot of damage that must be repaired by being radically honest.

Trust is built when your words align with your actions. Ensure your words and actions are consistent for long enough, and he will trust you again. It's just how it works. Even one setback can erase a lot of effort here, though. Be very open about your feelings, including the negative ones. Even if you just get a grunt in response, keep hitting that Openness & Honesty need.

I have a friend who told her DH that if he grunts in response to her questions or talking, she would just assume he said, "Why yes, sexy woman, you make take the credit card."

Thanks for the advice, luri. I have to say I truly enjoy reading your posts on so many threads because to me, you are a success story, and it's very inspiring to me to read about a FWW who has recovered her M. And you seem to have a great sense of humor to boot!


It's just that the "rays of sunshine" are so infrequent...things don't seem to get better. I admit I have a tendency to "downhill-slide". I feel like I have been trying so hard and for so long that nothing I do makes a difference. That I just can't seem to figure out the right things to do. Every day, DH gets colder and colder towards me and I am scared that he's just going to decide this is it, he's done. And I know I can't control that, that he has every right and reason to make that choice. Rights and reasons that I gave him.

The UA time is hard because he really does not want to be with me. I feel like I am forcing myself on him, even something as simple as sitting beside him on the couch. I would rather be with him than do anything else but often I find us back in the old patterns of being in different rooms.

We spent time together today but as it has been lately, it was strained. I had to go have an endoscopy done this morning which he took me to. Wasn't exactly like we were doing something fun together, although we did did to see pics of my stomach, lol...Nothing wrong with me, it's still a mystery as to why I threw up blood on our trip a couple weeks ago. We went for a late breakfast after. It was very nice of him to take me and to be there for me, and I thanked him for it.

Guys, I miss him so much.

No...to be honest I don't believe I will ever give up on him. If he ends up leaving me, I still won't give up. I guess I will never give up until the day he walks down the aisle with someone else. I have my doubts that even a poly will be sufficient enough for him, but I am leaning towards doing it anyway.

HHH, I think you have a great grasp on all the MB concepts, which is awesome when you think that have not been doing this for very long! I still feel murky sometimes in my grasp of and application of the concepts. I "get it," just like I "got" the Five Love Languages or the Love & Respect materials we went through at church. I feel like I have a plethora of tools in my toolbox, but sometimes I have a tendency to pick up a screwdriver and try to use it as a hammer.

One thought.

My wife didn't pick up the ball in recovery until I asked her to do so. I explained that I was tired of trying so hard to drive recovery, and I needed her to participate or I wouldn't have the strength to continue. She did, and it marked a strong turning point where she started taking an interest in recovering (and finding and destroying the last vestige of OM in our lives -- photos on her computer -- helped, too).

Not saying this is what you should do. But being needy and desperate is very unappealing to most men. Although you should do your best to meet his needs, it's likely you might need to focus on YOU for a while, finding those areas where an improvement in yourself will make you more attractive to him.

So what can you do to improve yourself to make sure he knows you want him, but don't need him?

My suggestions would include:

* Things to improve your appearance (diet, exercise, new clothes, whatever). This meets his need for an attractive spouse, and at the same time helps you feel better about yourself regardless of what he does or does not do.

* Taking up BH's favorite recreation or taking an interest in educating yourself on his work. Meets the RC need, and also helps Conversation a lot, while typically improving yourself.

* Invite him on activities that you plan for yourself & kids. If he comes, great! If he doesn't, let him know you miss him, answer the phone immediately if he calls, and send him some texts & photos while you're out. Show that you are strong and independent, but want him by your side.

* Work on improving the cleanliness of your home, little by little. Invite him to participate with you in household chores, and walk away to get it done without spite if he doesn't express interest.

* Plan a small home improvement project and do everything you need from end-to-end to see it done. Invite your husband to participate, but demonstrate your competence and commitment to improving your shared domicile. This can be as simple as painting some doorframes, mending a fence, or hiring a cabinetmaker to fix some broken kitchen drawers.

* Put yourself on a schedule to send BH texts about your day. Once an hour or so. "At hairdresser's". "At work, what are you up to?" "Chatting with kids about their plans tonight; what are your plans?" Sure, he'll be annoyed at first. That's normal. He'll begin to enjoy it after a while.

* Casually join him in whatever he's working on. Don't have to snuggle in close, but showing that you're enjoying the TV show or holding the board while he cuts it goes a long way.

* Invite him to lunch with you near his work. If he doesn't show up, enjoy your lunch alone, take some photos on your phone and send it to him to let him know what he's missing.

* Go strengthen some close friendships with women who are friends of both you & hubby. Schedule one date a week with these girlfriends, let hubby know exactly where you'll be eating and who with, take pictures, and enjoy the girl-time.

These are all ideas FWW ran with. And they all helped, some more than others.

DoNoMo,

Has your wife done these things? I agree that they are wonderful things - just hadn't read about them in your thread. I thought you were still struggling with feeling like she wasn't picking up her share of the load? Or maybe she has, and you just haven't written about it? I just remember your recent (within the past 6 months) posts about how you feel like she wants things like the garden, but doesn't actually help out.

Anyway, sorry to T/J. HU, stay strong and follow Dr. Harley's precepts. You can't go wrong there!

Arpeggi,

Appreciate it if you removed my real name from your post, thanks. Not sure how or when that leaked into my conversations here at any point, actually. I'm now very concerned why my real name is known.

And yes, as I mentioned in my post, at one point or another she's done each of these activities in the course of the past year. It's her diligence with them that waxes and wanes

The lesson I'm learning is how I feel about the relationship -- even the cleanliness of the house, or lack thereof -- really depends on where I am in the Three States of Marriage.

When I'm in Intimacy, as I am this morning, I don't care much about the little messes around the house. I'll tend to initiate projects, give her massages for her carpal tunnel syndrome, and do a lot to keep the house tidy. I'm happy to work hard and bring in a good living for my family, even though right now that is requiring me to work two jobs and 70+ hours a week. I'm satisfied with our sex life and think she's great for me.

When I'm in Conflict, I tend to feel that I'm doing more than my fair share by working two jobs and cleaning the house when she has spare time to make jewelry with her bead collection, that she's slacking off around the house, etc. I'll resent that I give her ten or fifteen massages to the one that she'll return. I'll want her to initiate in our sex life and think it's unfair that she only initiates once every few months.

This helps highlight those agreements that are "bad" agreements for me, too. If I feel badly about an agreement when I'm in Conflict, I didn't POJA well and should renegotiate so that I'm enthusiastic about it in either Intimacy and Conflict. And it also reminds me that one of my primary goals is to always stay in Intimacy with my spouse, because the resentment of Conflict tends to feed on itself. These days, I'm doing much better at saying exactly what it is that is bothering me when I'm in Conflict, and it turns out that this may have been the magic ingredient. If I am open about how I'm feeling about, for instance, not looking forward to working on a home improvement project, she'll go out of her way to help motivate me and pitch in. If I sullenly pout about it, she's not very good at reading minds!

Thanks for the suggestions, DNM. I'll work on those - I admit I have not done much focusing on me lately. It's hard, sometimes I don't even feel motivated to do anything for myself. But, I suppose I need to be a realist and recognize that if this marriage never turns around, I am going to have to stand on my own two feet anyway and neediness is not going to accomplish anything if I end up alone. Neediness is not getting him off the fence and getting him actively involved in our M.

And maybe that "finding and destroying the last vestiges of OM"...maybe when DH is ready to expose to OMW, after she has some time to recover from having her baby, and maybe me taking the poly, well, maybe those will be the final stakes in the vampire's heart, so to speak.

I have told him that I need his help, his feedback and I get no response. Here's something that confuses me - I don't understand why he is putting a lot of effort (and money) lately in doing things around the house. Don't get me wrong, it's great - we've got a gorgeous new floor on our front porch, landscaping in progress...but why would he put time and effort into that if he doesn't want our marriage? Why talk kitchen cabinets if we're not going to be together? I love what he's doing to the house and I try to let him know and be encouraging, offer to help (guess I just need to jump on in instead of asking) and so on. Since I learned about the Five Love Languages, I've felt like acts of service was his "love language." I don't know. I feel like I spend too much time trying to figure him out. To me, even though I love the work he is doing to the house, if he's not going to be in it with me, then it's just a house. Even if it's the only home the kids have known, if he's not in it, I don't want to be there either.

It's funny to me (ironic funny, not funny ha-ha) that the thought of living in a house with OM makes me feel sick. I can't even picture OM doing anything useful around the house. He wouldn't have even killed spiders for me, the wuss.

He went to bed early last night and on into work in the wee hours of the morning. He's been off this week so needed to go in, I can understand that. I slipped a little note in his wallet this morning and found it left behind on the counter when I got up. Sent him a couple of emails, one this morning when I woke up and one when I got in my office. We've got a thing at the girls' school this afternoon so planned to go home first so we could ride together.

He has said nothing else about my willingness to take a poly. Part of it I am sure comes from my offer to take one during the FR (or period of trickle truth, if that's better, DNM! ). I offered then because I knew he'd never expect me to take one. If I'd been asked to, I don't know what I would have done. Broke down sooner, I suppose. I worry that if I do take one, he'll still doubt the results. Rock and a hard place. I just don't know any other way to directly address his doubts about my O&H about the A and even my past with OM (I added another issue to the poly and that's whether or not I had sex with OM when DH and I were dating). It's difficult for me to be O&H now about the present - not about the A, but how I am feeling in recovery - because we are not engaging in enough UA time or having conversations. I KNOW UA time is a critical element of Dr. H's program. I am not the one who is resistant to UA time - I want it! But things are becoming harder and harder in Plan A - it's like an uphill slog - because my most important needs aren't being met. I can't say none of my needs are being met, as some are, but not my top 5 or even top 3. I don't know how I am doing with his needs as he seems to be staying in withdrawal.

Nothing much else new to report.

That's typically a sign of depression. Combining this with sleeping too much -- or difficulty sleeping at all -- difficulty with concentration, a feeling of hopelessness or helplessness, and loss of appetite or raging appetite, and you're almost certainly depressed. Seek some treatment from an individual counselor and possibly AD meds to get you through this trying time.

Two reasons:
1. Actions speak louder than words, particularly for many "strong, silent type" of men.
2. When my hands are busy, my mind is silent.


Don't read too much into this. Probably means he found it and read it, not necessarily that he found it and refused it.


I only vacillate as to what to call it because it appears it wasn't a false recovery, since you were no longer in contact with OM at the time. It was a period of you lying to him about the extent of the affair, which is "trickle-truth" or "wayward fog" or whatever you want to call it. False recovery implies you were still seeing OM during that time. Were you?



Then find a way to meet O&H obliquely. Keep a journal on your computer, and make sure he knows where it's located on your hard drive. Write in it when you're in the same room with hubby, and if he asks what you're doing, explain that you're writing in your journal.


Why not call in to the radio show and ask some advice from the master himself? I'm amazed he does 5 free hours of counseling a week!


Watch his actions. Ignore his words for a while. You might see a different picture than what you think.

Ah...will take a look.



To back up your words about the children and alimony, you can back that up with a legal agreement. If you both make about the same, the alimony may be moot anyway but this may be a gesture of goodwill and Just Compensation to your BH...he will have one less thing to worry about if you put it in wrting. The custody may be a bit more complex to address at this point but you can check into it.

I can definitely see that. I've struggled with depression before and am pretty good at seeing when I start sliding into the pit. I have tried AD's off and on in the past and have never found anything I've been happy with. Bad side effects - weight gain, tiredness, feeling like I am in a cognitive fog. I'm hesitant to take something that will cause weight gain after working so hard to get 40 pounds off. Tried Wellbutrin, which is not supposed to cause weight gain and it made me agitated, which is definitely not something I need right now! Started taking St John's Wort a couple months ago but it doesn't seem to be making much difference.


No - I wasn't in contact with OM at any point during that period. on D_Day #1 I deleted my FB account - first thing that happened is he sent me an email asking what happened, why I was no longer his "friend" on FB. I emailed back do not contact me, do not speak to me, leave me alone and the putz responded something to the effect of sorry we can't be friends anymore, or something equally stupid. NC was in place until January of this year when OM contacted me b/c DH kept contacting him. I didn't mean to imply I was still contacting OM by calling it an FR - guess I called it an FR because, well, we weren't really recovering and by lying to DH I pretty much wiped out everything we'd done during that time period.



Both excellent ideas - I may get a book to write in though, since the computer is not in the room where we'd be together most of the time. That way I could sit on the couch and write while he's watching TV or whatever. And the radio show is a good idea - funds are a little short now to get another session with JC - I'd still like to have another session with her and I'd love for H to talk to her also.


Thanks - I'll keep my eyes open and be patient.

Thanks, black_raven - Would this be the same thing as a postnuptial agreement? I would definitely be willing to do something like this. I've got a friend who is a paralegal and familiar with our sitch - I will ask her if she knows anyone I can contact.

DoNoMo,

Done - edited it out. I actually was multitasking and wrote the wrong person's name in here by mistake. I had no idea what your real name was - how crazy is that that I wrote a friend's name and it happened to be yours!!? Ah well, in any case it's gone now and don't worry, it won't come up again. Sorry to cause you distress.

And thanks for the clarification on your FWW! Sounds great.

I guess technically it would a post nup. The language can be drafted to deal with specifics such as alimony.

One other idea. Dr. Harley seemed to almost be talking about your husband's situation today. When you feel like you are spiraling negatively, that you can't stop those memories, you can't get over the resentment, and you aren't willing to work on the marriage as a betrayed spouse, antidepressants often help a lot. They allow the betrayed spouse to stop responding to their emotions and think clearly and rationally at the time they need it most.

You may have some difficulty floating this idea to your husband, but it may be the logical next step. He's not even willing to talk to a reasonable counselor like Steven Harley or Jennifer Harley Chalmers, though...

Thanks for the heads-up, DNM - I'll have to try and listen to that one.

DH is on ADs - like me, he's tried a few different kinds but says nothing really seems to help. He stopped going to his IC and we stopped going to the MC. He has not expressed interest in talking to JC although I've had 2 sessions with her. She's great, but there's only so much I can do on my own if he is not willing to participate in our marriage. I know Dr. H talks about how one spouse can "save" a M...and I've read some books that are geared towards one person saving a M - one that pops into my head I read this summer was "How to Win Your Husband Back Before it's Too Late." Huh. Should have read that one two years ago before my A. Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

I have continued to work on my little journal for H and added some stuff. Gave it to him yesterday evening when we'd gotten back from the thing we went to at the girls' school. Explained that it wasn't finished but asked him to read it when he got a chance. I wrote on one of the first pages that it wasn't finished, that I want to keep adding to it because basically it turned out it wasn't something I could "finish," that I'd always have things I wanted to add to it. So I asked him to leave it somewhere where I could get it when I wanted to add to it. I wrote that I have the rest of our lives to add to the book. Maybe it isn't meeting one of his most important ENs, but it's still something I wanted to give him. He'd left it in the kitchen last night and I don't think he'd looked at it, so I left it by the computer in the garage this morning where I know he'll see it. Maybe that was too pushy, I don't know.

Going to try and invite him to lunch today. If he doesn't want to have lunch, I'm just going to ride back to the house so I can get out of the office for a bit.

Annnd thought of another question/issue for the poly - is any contact still going on between me and OM. I should get my paycheck next week from the last class I taught and I'm just going to cash it and go take the test. Maybe I should ask, since it's a big chunk of money - POJA and all that - but I also spent a big chunk of money on the new wedding ring without POJA'ing it. It may not do any good, but I can at least say that I am trying everything. Also going to do some investigation into post-nup agreements.

If anyone has any other suggestions, I am game!

Can't get to the rebroadcast of the radio show from the office. Don't know if it's on my end or anybody know if the site is down? I'll keep trying!

The rebroadcast from yesterday seemed to be broken.

The show I was on wasn't their regular show. It was their special show on an AM radio station in Minneapolis. Joyce responded to me this morning that they do not have copies.

shoot...oh well, thanks for checking, DNM!

ok...texted H a half hour ago and invited him to lunch. No response. I am going to try and be positive and think he must be in a meeting. If I don't hear from him I am going to ride home and have lunch and read a good book.

I really wish I could focus on work these days. I know it would keep my mind off of everything else. I am going to go and get engrossed in reviewing some test questions, doesn't THAT sound fun?

Taking the girls to a Halloween party tomorrow. We were talking about it at dinner a few nights ago and DD#1 told DH "you can come if you want to," not sure if he didn't hear her or chose not to respond.

And I got up this morning and ran. I colored my hair the other night (it's too dark, scary!!!). Bought some new books to read that are the fluffy read-for-fun kind, not marriage/relationship books. I'm trying. Baby steps, right?

While trying these different kinds, are you using them as prescribed, for a fair amount of time?

Not trying to lecture or anything here, but ADs need several weeks to actually begin to do their job. Remember that these drugs are affecting mood by affecting the over-all chemical balance of the body.

A lot of antidepressants can actually make things worse for the first few weeks before they begin achieving their desired effect. So if you take the drug for 3 or 4 weeks, then throw your hands up and say "this isn't working" and move on, you aren't using the medication properly.

Just food for thought.

The AD subject came up for me, which was a strain on FWW. I've had intermittent periods of depression, but I've always been able to face it. Previous to our current situation, I never felt I had anything to be depressed about, so pharmacological intervention was unnecessary.

Some days, like yesterday, I wonder if it wouldn't help.

HHH, you are correct. ADs do tend to take a while to work. I never felt like DH gave anything he tried a fair shake, but he'd start complaining about side effects and I certainly couldn't know how they made him feel. What would scare me is he'd stop them cold turkey when he decided he didn't like them, and I also know you're not supposed to do that with AD's either. I *think* he's still taking the current one but I'm not pill counting or seeing him take it every night!

The only thing I found to work with me was a couple years ago the doc had me doing a "spike" of Prozac during the month to help with depression I felt mid-cycle (sorry if TMI!), but my script ran out and I didn't bother with it anymore. Prozac made me want to eat too much, I was hungry constantly. I admit I haven't tried many ADs because the side effects scare me off...although low libido might be a blessing to me now, I do not want anything that could cause weight gain. I gave the others I was on a fair shake, but couldn't cope with the side effects myself. Thought I would give St. Johns Wort a try again but after a couple months I'm not seeing much of a difference.

Sorry you had a rough day yesterday. I hope today is looking a bit brighter for you!

There are several "old school" AD meds that work well. The one my doctor put me on to help control my anxiety is one currently given to people in nursing homes as a sleep aid. It worked wonderfully. My depression had been affecting my sleep, and it was a great first step.

Best part was that I could drop off it at any time, and I saw results within 2-3 days. They weren't hugely profound, but the medicine blunted the edge of my anxiety enough that I could think clearly.

There are options if you're the impatient sort that don't require the traditional "titrate up, titrate down" dosing schedule Lithium and others usually require.

DoNoMo, what is the name of the drug you're on? I take Celexa for anxiety but it doesn't really work, and my doctor thinks that old-school ADs have "too many side effects". But I have read positive things about them. I'm especially interested to hear about it because you said it took the edge of your anxiety enough to think straight. That's exactly what I need. My doctor gives me Xanax but it makes my head too cloudy so I don't really like it. Details appreciated!

I don't recall the name, you may want to ask your doctor. I only took it at night. Started at half a pill, titrated up to 2 pills over the course of 3 weeks until I felt "groggy" in the morning, then back to 1.5 pills which was the perfect amount. One pill before bedtime, I was sleepy within about an hour.

HAD to get 8 hours of sleep for this to work, though. Manage your schedule and bedtime! If you're only getting 7 hours a night (or thereabouts), you'll be late for work on this.

Anyway, it's marketed as a gentle sleep aid. The main thing it cured was my sleeplessness -- without being a "sleeping pill" -- which really helped my anxiety and ability to think clearly. Which are two of the main reasons Dr. Harley recommends antidepressants for.

I'm also not on it anymore. I only took it for about six months, then just stopped using it. Had about 2 nights where I didn't sleep well, started taking 2 tablets of Melatonin at night (non-prescription, natural and doesn't-knock-you-out sleep aid), and still do to this day.

If I can get enough restful sleep, I can handle stress a whole lot more rationally!

Hi Wulff

Hows it going? I am just popping into your thread as I am VERY familiar with mid month PMT. I actually have quite a rough time too, I went to the docs, and they would not prescribe me any ADs. I am not really a big fan of them either, I am more a believer in good diet, excercise ect... However, I have tried loads of things such as cut out drinking, caffeine ect.. and nothing seemed to really help. I have also tried Agnus castus, St Johns Wort and again nothing. However, I have tried something of late which has helped TREMENDOUSLY, it is called 5-HTP.

It worked for me anyway, although I still make sure I do other things such as excercise and eat well. Don't forget to take care of yourself whilst going through this recovery Wulff. Go and get a full body massage, get an early night with a good book, get out and about in the fresh air, hell even escape to a hotel or somewhere quiet for the night...It all helps refresh the mind.

Your doing so well, keep going x

http://www.healthyplace.com/depression/alternative-treatments/5-htp-serotonin-connection/menu-id-68/

Let's see; mother, 2 sisters, W, 3 daughters - going into nursing which is dominated by women, and I have to provide total care to patients of both sexes.

I'm afraid that my "TMI" threshold is shockingly... non existent.

Thanks for the info on 5-HTP, Harmony - I will look into it!

lol @ HHH - yeah, guess you are quite outnumbered by females!

Everything here is pretty much the same. DH spent time yesterday working in the yard, I took the girls to a Halloween party and attacked the giant piles of laundry. I visited with him a couple times outside and he's willing to talk about things that have nothing to do with our relationship, but at least he's willing to talk. He cooked dinner last night and I cleaned up, and we watched some TV after the girls went to bed.

I'm just not having a great morning. I dreamed last night that DH and I made love - in the dream he wanted me and told me he loved me. I wake up and the crushing reality is back. It's one of those mornings I'd rather stay in bed, I don't feel like going to church but that means I need it more, KWIM? The weight of carrying recovery is getting to be too much and I simply don't know how to ask him to help, when he is not interested in having more than trivial conversations with me.

I am excited about one thing - I signed up for an online course on the book, The Respect Dare. It starts Monday and runs through the end of the year. The course participants are all women and have started introducing themselves via the discussion forum. We were asked why we took the class. I was ashamed to introduce myself as a woman who had an A, especially after reading some of the other responses of women who were betrayed by their H's and why they were doing the course. In the end, I told the truth - it's the reason why my M is the way it is now, after all.

Plans for today - take the girls to buy new shoes and carve jack-o-lanterns. Maybe squeeze in a workout since I overslept this morning.

That's still a move in the right direction. In fact, you should be avoiding "relationship talk". It tends to be an enemy of good conversation. Instead, focus on just talking for the pleasure of it, and occasionally to negotiate something.

THIS.

Build him up out of withdrawal. Issues are going to be resolved eventually. If he is conversing with you, it's a start!

Thanks guys. I know it's a start that he talks at all. And truthfully I don't want to talk about the "problems," I just want to TALK. To connect. Right now my needs aren't being met, I am hopeful he'll get there...when I bring things up (last night I tried "I'd love it if we could cuddle" while we were in bed) my requests are ignored. And right now I'm just letting them drop.

It was ironic today that our church sermon was on hypocrites. Specifically the story of Annanias and Sapphira from Acts Chapter 5. How they lied before men and before God. A sermon I needed before the A started. Or at least when I was trickle truthing DH. I tried to keep my mind from making DJ's today but I couldn't help but think that DH probably sees me as a hypocrite, probably wished God had meted out judgement on me as he did Annanias and Sapphiria...but I kept my thoughts to myself. And I admit that I was a hypocrite. The preacher said Jesus described hypocrites as a cup that is clean on the outside, but dirty on the inside. And that's how I was - during the A but also when I trickle-truthed DH. In fact, my hypocrisy was WORSE in my eyes while I was trickle-truthing him. And I NEVER want to be that way again. Outward appearances can mask a multitude of evil things. I don't want that to be me.

What's funny is that I've been told multiple times by people I've worked with over the years that I don't have a poker face - that you can clearly see what I am thinking just by looking at me. When I was in college and interning with a police dept, I went to court one day and sat in the gallery with one of the officers. A man was defending himself against a speeding ticket. The court bailiff came up to me afterwards and said, "Hon, if you want to make it in this line of work, you gotta work on developing a poker face." Apparently I had the bailiff about cracking up over the look on my face while this guy was trying to defend himself (cross-examining a state trooper, of all things).

Anyway just babbling. On Harmony's recommendation, I did some research on 5-HTP and bought some tonight, so I'm trying that now instead of St John's Wort (I checked, and had been taking SJW since Aug. 23 so seems like I would have seen some effects if it was going to help). If the 5-HTP doesn't help, I'll try SAM-e, then may have to bite the bullet and go to the doc's.

Got the pumpkins carved today (and had to rescue them from being carried off by ants, ugh). Didn't make it shoe shopping or work out, but I got a nap in. H worked on his car most of the afternoon.

DNM, I also bought a journal today - I think it will help while I'm doing this online course too. The first "dare" is to write my expectations - 3 for me and 3 for DH - and seal them in an envelope and put them in a safe place till the end of the course. Onward and upward!

This used to be said with much more frequency in the past: skip the relationship talk.

Good that you recognize that having a pleasant conversation will be more beneficial for recovery. This is why once all the questions after D day have been answered it's best to limit affair discussions to once a week if there is still a need to discuss an affair related issue.

Can't build anything if one keeps undoing what they do on a daily basis.

It sounds like you are putting one foot in front of the other and moving forward every day. Good for you for going to church even though you felt like going nowhere. I wish I had done a better job with that at times.

Hi all - another day...I am trying to keep putting one foot in front of the other, luri, it just feels like I'm slogging through waist-deep mud some days.

I'm doing my best to protect DH's LB$ but am not doing so well. Again I asked him yesterday for his help in our recovery. H refuses to tell me goodnight, refuses to tell me goodbye in the mornings. This morning he didn't want to get out of bed, his alarm kept going off. I went for my run and came back and he's still asleep. I tried to wake him up by kissing him, and it was like kissing a stone. He was totally unresponsive. He avoids touching me even by accident. And stating the obvious, we haven't had SF in over a week, since I initiated and he didn't refuse...but yet I find out he didn't want to, he just went along with it.

This hurts. It sucks. I am committed to continuing in Plan A, but his continued refusal to even try to meet my most important EN's is wearing on me. I don't understand what he wants, why he's staying, if he's not interested in rebuilding and recovering our M. I'm to the point I feel like I am living with someone who hates me, who will always hate me, and I need to decide whether or not I am going to live with it for the rest of my life. I know that's a DJ on my part as I don't know how he feels...

my boss keeps calling me, she's driving me insane. gotta go for now.

Classic sign of male depression. Suggested book: "I don't want to talk about it". You helped put him there, but it's not exclusively your fault.

Like I said earlier, you should do your best to meet his ENs, but in order to avoid depression & withdrawal yourself, keep working on improving yourself regardless of his reciprocation or lack thereof. It's your best bet to keep holding up: focus on how you can be a better person. Whether you end up staying married or divorced, you'll be better off for it.

EDIT to say: When you feel as if your needs are not being met, that's the time you're most likely to have another affair. It is at this point, during the long-haul to prove yourself to your husband after your previous infidelity and lack of trustworthiness, that you must stick as close as possible to your Extraordinary Precautions. Do not allow any other man to deposit Love Units, lest that cause your husband's Love Bank balance in your heart to drop even lower without his having done anything.

Yeah, it makes me very concerned that his AD's are not effective, that maybe he needs to up his dose. I have no idea when or if he's got a doc's appt. scheduled. I am afraid to bring it up to him for exactly what you mentioned, DNM - that I helped put him there, and that's exactly what he'll say to me...even though I am doing everything in my power to help him crawl out of that pit.

I'm sick of falling into the pit. DJ coming...at this point I feel that he is not with me because he wants a passionate, romatic marriage, but is with me for other reasons - the kids, my paycheck, clean laundry, I dunno...and since I am not allowed to fulfill any of his intimate ENs, I can only try to fulfill those that do not require intimacy - like DS, AS, FC, FS. Occasional C. I will take the poly to try to meet O&H. I am considering the post-nup, although the first laywer I was referred to as "good" doesn't do free initial consultations and money is tight at the moment. I'll continue meeting the needs I am allowed to meet as best as I can, try to include as much affection and admiration that I can, and avoid LBs, but aside from working on myself, maybe I need to be working on an exit strategy as well.

I will stick to my EPs. I would rather be dunked in hot oil than to travel the road of another A. I will not allow anyone else to make deposits in my LB$. I would rather go without having my needs met than to hurt DH like that again and destroy myself in the process. The A and the fallout almost destroyed me and I will not let that happen again. I'm at the point I don't want to be around the guys here at the office, rarely engage in conversation with them and certainly not intimate conversation. To be honest I'd much rather everyone here at work would just leave me alone. I could care less about work right now. I want my marriage. I can find another job. Just funny that I loved this job when I started working here and now I don't care.

I'm going to concentrate on the Respect Dare course I'm in. I'm considering picking up some PT work teaching online classes, which I can do from home. I failed to successfully train to run my half marathon in November, so I am going to train for another one in April. I want to drop another 10-15 pounds. I want to get DD#1 enrolled in gymnastics and I want to take krav maga. Maybe I need to make my "bucket list."

Get this - totally unrelated but just funny stuff from day-to-day life - I get sucked into a meeting this morning and the security officer comes to get my boss from the meeting. We hear them talking in the hall, and apparently there's a sewer problem and none of the bathrooms are working. We can't use the bathrooms at all!!! Shouldn't that be cause to just shut down and go home??? So we have "permission" to take breaks to ride to the store up on the corner to use the bathroom. I guess on the bright side that means we get to leave work...heck, I am headed to the house for lunch!

OK, DNM, I read your post on looking4's thread:


I realize it is a DJ for me to say about DH, but I wonder...could it be his principles are more important than my feelings? I don't think it's too far-fetched as he has told me before that he swore he'd never have the kind of M his parents had, he'd never put the kids through that, that unfaithfulness was pretty much the worst of the worst, the worst thing anybody could do to someone they claimed to love.

D*mmit. Why did I have to do it??? Don't answer. I know why I did it. Just doesn't make it any better or make any sense. I 2X4 myself on a regular basis.

There is a huge amount of "I" focus in most of your posts. Rarely is there much empathy or sympathy for your BH and what he is going through, but rather there is a consistent sense of "why doesn't he just get over it already?" You know--get with the MB program, up his meds, tell you how nice you look and quit moping about in bed.

I think that if you keep on this way, thinking only of what you need and want, your husband is going to a) remain with you in a state of despair, knowing you do not care about him or his pain and divorce you ten years from now, or b) bite the bullet and get a divorce now. Thus his depression--it's a lose/lose situation.

It is not an unusual thing for humans to be "me" centered--it's what many of us spend most of our lives trying to overcome. But if you want to stay in a marriage to ANYONE--this man or any subsequent husbands, you must learn how to change this focus.

Do you want to stay married to this man? Back off on trying to "make" him do anything. Get the polygraph, get the postnuptial (work overtime or get a second job), gently hold his hand when he lies in bed in despair and let him set the pace of recovery. What he is doing is not due to a deficit in his character. It is due to a deficit in YOURS.

This.


My DW does this when I spin out.

She will pick at me a bit; "What's wrong (ugh)," "What can I do?," "What do you need from me."

I don't often answer when I'm at my worst.

Oh, I have an answer, but it's neither anything constructive, nor is it anything she would like to hear at any time, more so when she's viewing the destruction her choices has caused.

So, she doesn't usually keep on pressing, but just lays there and either holds my hand, or gently caresses my back, or plays with my ears (her obsession, not mine!).

Then she repeats reassuring things, like she's not going anywhere, and she'll spend the rest of her life making up her single largest mistake and regret.

As I type, I almost eye roll. In those moments, I do. I don't know how or when, but it sinks in. Sometimes, even if it's insidious; whole life? Ah, I'll give you that chance!


At least 2 hours per day, WPG. At least. Minimum. No less.

If I be a positive example to you, then know this; I found out yesterday that just 1 day without that minimum 2 hours can knock me right off the pedestal. That is how fragile a state I am in. That is how fragile he is.

So I am not supposed to be working on making myself a better person and a better wife to DH? Fixing what was the defect in my character that caused me to have an A? I know I have a defect in my character. I'm committed to fixing it, with or without DH. I am a work in progress, but I also know that I am not the woman I was a year ago, or two years ago. I also know that HE doesn't have a defect in his character. He'd never in a million years do what I did. He's honest and loyal and strong, physically and emotionally. I am just worried about him. I worry about his health. I want him to recover - I want to HELP him to recover.

But I can't reconcile this M without his help. That's what I am asking for. He's withdrawn from me and I don't get the feedback I need to know what - if anything - I am doing to help. We seem stuck, and DH just seems to be numb and I am struggling to reach him.

I DO have empathy for him, for what he is going through. He's devastated and my A did that to him. The trickle truth I put him through did that to him. I am trying to be supportive and encouraging, sending him emails, writing notes, doing things to try to meet affection and admiration, which are the only 2 intimate ENs I can try to meet without his participation. I've had 2 sessions with Dr. Chalmers to try and figure out how I can meet his needs, avoid LBs, and introduce MB to him without him feeling like I am making a DJ.

I don't expect him just to "get over it." I've never said that to anyone, least of all to him. But I also believe that the best way for us to heal is to rebuild our marriage, following Dr. H's principles in his program. Counseling didn't do it for us. I know he's hurting but right now he's LB'ing left and right and I'm desperately trying to keep my head above water. I know that I caused this train wreck but I have been carrying the weight of recovery for some time - no, I didn't do it right to start with, by any means, but I am trying to do it right now.

If my M to my DH doesn't work, there won't BE any subsequent husbands. He's who I want, no one else. I'll be his wife for the rest of my life, whether he wants me to or not.


I do this too. I curl up in bed with him even when he's sleeping just to be close to him...to smell his skin...and I like my DH's ears too! He rarely answers me either. I honestly don't care if his answers weren't constructive - I just want answers! I just want to connect - somehow, some way.


DH is my one and only choice. I'll say it until I am blue in the face. But I need his help to help me heal too. My faith in God is shaky at best - God's forgiveness maybe SHOULD be enough for me, if I am a good Christian, but I want DH's too.




I wish he wanted to spend UA time with me. Everything I've read says MB won't work without it. We simply don't have it. Not by my choice. I'd rather spend time with him than anyone else, than doing anything else.

"There is a huge amount of "I" focus in most of your posts. Rarely is there much empathy or sympathy for your BH and what he is going through, but rather there is a consistent sense of "why doesn't he just get over it already?" You know--get with the MB program, up his meds, tell you how nice you look and quit moping about in bed."


Perhaps you are right; however, what I am hearing is someone whose love bank is draining rapidly and is trying so hard to keep it filled.

WPG, Maybe you need a break, not a plan B and not to cease meeting his needs entirely, just try to stop looking so hard for reciprocation. Pick a timeframe and stick to it...kinda like a diet or college course. Sometimes, if we know there is an end in sight, we can do amazing things. That is why plan A is to be time limited.

If you continue to think you will have to live like this forever then your LB will drain and you will be left with nothing to give.

Pick a date, don't analyze, evaluate or decipher his reaction until then. No expectations.

I truly feel for both you and your H.

God Bless

Classic WS syndrome. Insist on forcing pace of recovery. Expecting easily measured results for their herculean efforts.

What is needed is normal human effort and herculean patience.

Sometimes I think BS's maybe slow to react to their WS's efforts because they may be acting passive aggressive.

I'm not insisting on forcing the pace of anything. I just want some kind of signal that SOMETHING I'm doing is helping him to heal. That SOMETHING is encouraging him to reach out and take my hand. I don't need huge, just....something.

I don't know what is "normal" anymore. All I know is I miss my husband. I want him in my life.

He's gone from texting me and wanting me to meet him at home for lunch for SF at the beginning of this month to seeming to flat-out hate me. Yes, I know recovery is a roller coaster, but I can't help feeling that it is something that I have done in that span of time to cause this wave of hatred. That somehow I am failing in meeting his needs, but when I ask him for help in doing so - my "what can I do?" questions are met with "I don't knows."

TheRoad, do you see signs of this in our recovery? If so, is there a way for the WS to address this?

I guess it's just that it seems to be getting progressively worse instead of better. Is this normal? Will the roller coaster ever start climbing again?

You know the ordeal your BH went through with his parents. He saw you as someone who would be a rock, a cornerstone for him.
He saw you as someone he could trust. Someone who would never deeply hurt him. Especially the way his parents did.

Now with what has happened he sees his parents relationship within his relationship with you.
That was something he never wanted in his marriage and now it's there.

He loves you, but does not feel he can get to the point of you being his rock, or his cornerstone again.

I applaud your efforts because you really have been trying hard.

I hope that he can see that and see the wife he once believed in.
Right now that is too hard for him to see and he feels he needs to distance himself from the pain.
Distance himself from you and the familiarity of his childhood home environment.
He feels like giving up, because he doesn't have what he thought he did.
I know that is painful..it is painful for you to be in that spot as the remembrance of his childhood and painful for him to be reliving it with someone he never thought would bring it back.

I don't know if he will ever get past it. it seems so deeply embedded in him.
Just keep doing Dr. Harley's methods and maybe, just maybe he can see hope. He doesn't see any right now.

I know I've mentioned it before, and I do not want to alarm you, but keep an eye open for Contrast Effect. He was in a vulnerable position after your affair, and it's possible he's experiencing Contrast Effect with some other person himself. That can cause your Love Bank balances to plummet through no (current) fault of your own.

I'm probably over-projecting here, but I know the experience of my stepbrother. He was acting as if he was recovering fine with his wife until another woman at work sympathized with him. Shortly thereafter it was all over but filing the divorce papers. And him putting a bullet through his head out of despair a few months later.

Wulff,

Yes it is possible that he will get progressively worse and not better. He is the one that has to heal, you can only change the dressings. He is in a very dark spot and until he decides to change his life, he won't come out.

You need patience and you need time. Keep your life busy and fulfilling, and have patience with yourself and him. He has control of his healing and whether or not he wants to heal. Then he must decide how he will heal.

Calm down, be a good human being, show love when you can and give this time and patience, T&P.

God Bless,

JL

DNM, your 1st paragraph is good advice. Is the point of your 2nd paragraph that they should be on alert for signs of depression? I was very sorry for you and your stepbrother & all affected when you first posted of his experience, and I assume that repeating the bullet-through-the-head account here is connected with a point of advice and is not gratuitous, b/c I assume that WPG has been feeling plenty rotten about things already.

@GloveOil Alas, I'm human. My brother was really on my mind today, and the account here is disturbingly similar to me: the withdrawal, the spiraling depression after a seemingly positive turn, etc.

Quick post just to check in. Still working on getting DH out of withdrawal into conflict. Thank you for all the advice the past couple of days. I've been out of the office part of yesterday and today at a meeting so have been trying to text him frequently throughout the day. I gave him my boss's cell # plus the # of the place we're at in case he wanted to check to see if I was where I said I'd be. He has responded to one text, earlier today - I'd texted him to say that his kiss goodbye this morning was nice, I was thinking about wanting to kiss him now. He responded, "Hard to believe when you told the OM he was bigger and better in bed." Yes, it was upsetting but I tried to take it as a positive sign he was at least popping into conflict with me, if only briefly. I reiterated that he was my choice, that I was committed to our marriage. I also texted a bit later and told him when we were breaking for lunch, that he could come and meet me. No response to that one.

DNM, your brother's story scares me b/c I feared that DH was suicidal at one point not too many months ago. He had said some things that genuinely concerned me and I actually called his counselor. I wasn't sure how he'd take it, whether he would think I was overstepping or what...but I did what I thought was right. I wouldn't know where to start looking for any evidence of contrast effect at play here, though. I really don't know anyone at his work and he has always been a very private person, I don't feel the need to do any snooping at this point.

ANyway, have to go back to the meeting now. I haven't been able to concentrate very well - his earlier text came in the middle of one of the presentations this morning and he's just been pretty much all I have been able to think about while I'm here.

Just thanks, everyone, for your support, it means a lot!

Today's article for you. Your husband certainly has some resentment to overcome, but the main thing that needs to happen over the next couple of years is to complete recovery together.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html

Oh, fuuuuuuuuuuuu.........

God, that's something I wouldn't want in my head.

Was this a rage answer that you gave him or something? Or was it something your BH intercepted?

Holy cow, is that a crushing blow.

Anyone else dealt with something like this? Any advice for this one?

Thank you for the link, DNM. Time and patience...it is difficult, and it's for selfish reasons. I KNOW what I want and it's DH. I don't expect him to forgive and forget - I want forgiveness when he is able, but neither of us will never forget. I want us to begin to heal our M together. And patience was never my strong suit, and it is now a lesson that I am having to learn.

My thought exactly. He texted this to me in the middle of the work meeting I was in this morning. I thought I was going to throw up.


No, I never said it to DH. If he's got it in his head, it would have been from something he intercepted. I don't remember every word I said or wrote to OM when I was carrying on the A. People may accuse me of lying, but I just don't remember every conversation, text or email exchange we had. I've read some of the things that DH recovered and reading the things I wrote made me physically ill.

DH asked me both questions and I answered honestly - was OM bigger? No. Was sex better? No. OM was intent on scratching his own itch and only that. I wrote in an earlier post that DH asked me if I'd climaxed with OM. I answered that as well - no. In the fantasy world I was stuck in, I said the things that OM wanted to hear. I've never had any complaints in the attributes of my DH, KWIM? And the only complaint I had about SF with DH was the frequency, not the quality.

I mentioned I'm doing the Respect Dare. Well, there's a lot of examining yourself to start with in this first week - the ideas you have about yourself, about marriage, etc. For me, I believe SF is more about intimacy in general than the act. That's not to say I don't like it - I do. I think I wanted SF more often with DH because intimacy in our lives was lacking in other areas. I needed SF with DH to feel reassured of intimacy. I think it became my substitute for affection and admiration.

Before I met DH, when I was in high school and my first couple of years in college, I sought attention from guys and would pretty much do whatever I wanted b/c I wanted them to like me. I wanted their attention and their affection, but in reality what I got was a lack of respect and I was treated like garbage. I can't put myself in DH's shoes b/c I was never cheated on - I was always dumped before my relationships got to that point.

When I met DH, he was different. Yes, we had SF before we were married. In fact, we'd known each other for a few months and were in the same circle of friends. We were actually "hooked up" by one of those friends in what I thought was a one-night stand. But here's where DH was different. After we made love that night, he had to go to work. I honestly figured he wouldn't come back. But he did. He came back to me before the morning. And I knew he wasn't like the other guys that used me like so much garbage.

I was completely messed up when I met DH. I was failing out of college. I'd just gotten out of a relationship with an emotional abuser, a guy that pretty much all we did together was drink and get high and I allowed to insult me and put me down. DH was different. He was my rock. I straightened out. I settled down. I ended up changing my major and going on to grad school. And I give him the credit for getting me off the self-destructive spiral I was on.

And yet I allowed myself to self-destruct again, when I had so much more at stake in my life. I allowed myself to be treated as garbage by OM. And none of the above negates the fact that I willingly entered into a relationship with OM. Yes, there was a lot of "sexy" talk, but I was so caught up in the fantasy I would have talked about nuclear physics if I had the OM's attention - I craved the attention and the "high" I got from it. Of course, the fact that sex was not my motivator doesn't change the fact that I did it.

Regardless of what happens, I do know myself better now. I know why the A happened. Yeah, I still start beating myself up sometimes with "why, why WHY???" but Harley's "formula" for A's is pretty straightforward. I know how to maintain my boundaries and stick to EPs to keep one from happening ever again. I get beaten down some days, but I make a choice every day to continue to fight for my M.

I think often about that first night DH and I were together. How he came back.

Anyway, I'm babbling. It's been a long day. Tomorrow will be better.

FWW and I are cheering for you both, every day.

There are good and bad things about that. FWW fears facing in me what you face in your BH. I kinda flipped out a couple days this past week - I can't excuse it, and it did me no real good.

I'm still trying to figure out how to handle it when crap builds up, and unfortunately the only thing I know how to do right now is shut down. The only thing she knows how to do is to fight me.

I flamed SO hard... so, so hard... I really wrecked her and kind of twisted how she felt I think about her. I scared her, too. Not because I am loud, or violent, but because I went COLD. She's waiting for the time when I turn cold like that, and it doesn't stop... and it would be over.

And, again - the echoes of my FWW in your posts... it wasn't a love fantasy, it wasn't the defilement, it was simply the attention. Just the attention. Well, that and the thrill of being chased - "the hunt, the high."

That's what I nuked over. I stripped the last illusion; "If OM hadn't have pushed so hard..." No, if you hadn't stood to be pushed.



God, I'm not proud of that, and that total realization stepped me back, too.


I'm rambling on your thread... sorry.

Anyway, totally feel you on the intimacy within SF - it was something I felt was lacking between FWW and I for YEARS, and every time I tried to address it, she thought I just wanted more sex. And then I gave up. On all of it.

WPG, he is different. You are different. And that is what is so damaging about what happened.

I really hope for him, for you, for you both, that he can find a way out of this cave he is hiding himself in, things really can be better...

WPG,

"Hard to believe when you told the OM he was bigger and better in bed."

After my wifes affair with OM2 she told me one time "you don't have a big....." It was an unimportant statement to her, but something died inside of me at that moment, I can't recall the pain from some of my physical scars but that one oh GOD.

I think the contrast effect also works with the BH and the OM in that the BH compares himself to the OM and hates himself or some part/parts of himself.

God Bless
Gamma

It's hard for a betrayed spouse to believe, and I would have trouble believing it if I had not seen it with my own eyes. My wife was incensed to discover the keylogger I had placed on her computer. When she asked why I did it (around December 2009), I told her about the email I'd saved from the secret account we had closed together on the day she finally wrote the no-contact letter. In that email, she bragged to OM about finally figuring out how to use the "private browsing" feature of her web browser, and how much trouble they could have avoided if she'd learned about it earlier, and how she looked forward to using it in the future to avoid discovery.

This was AFTER she'd promised No-contact weeks earlier, but failed to follow through.

She didn't remember ever sending that email. One of the most damning indicators of her state of mind that I'd found, and she didn't believe she'd ever sent it.

There were a bunch of explanations offered on the forum for why this was, most of them suggesting that she was still an active wayward in some way.

Jennifer Harley Chalmers provided a different explanation to me as part of her treatment strategy for us. It was that people tend to forget actions that are inconsistent with their view of themselves. FWW had forgotten because those actions were no longer consistent with her current behavior and view of herself. Jennifer encouraged me not to try to force her to remember those incidents, as FWW was trying so hard to forget them. Every time I brought them up again, I was reinforcing that memory which, in order for us to recover, she would eventually have to forget. Reinforced memories take longer to expire, extending her withdrawal symptoms.

This was, of course, 4 months after NC-day, and FWW was clearly still suffering from withdrawal symptoms after her EA. They are completely gone now as far as I can see.

So I guess what I'm saying is that "I get it", but if that message came from you to your BH, it would sound incredibly self-serving. If it had come from my FWW at the time, I'd not have to believe it, either. It had to come from a competent third-party whom I had provisionally decided to trust in order for me to believe it.


I've read some of the things that DH recovered and reading the things I wrote made me physically ill.

DH asked me both questions and I answered honestly - was OM bigger? No. Was sex better? No. OM was intent on scratching his own itch and only that. I wrote in an earlier post that DH asked me if I'd climaxed with OM. I answered that as well - no. In the fantasy world I was stuck in, I said the things that OM wanted to hear. I've never had any complaints in the attributes of my DH, KWIM? And the only complaint I had about SF with DH was the frequency, not the quality.

I mentioned I'm doing the Respect Dare. Well, there's a lot of examining yourself to start with in this first week - the ideas you have about yourself, about marriage, etc. For me, I believe SF is more about intimacy in general than the act. That's not to say I don't like it - I do. I think I wanted SF more often with DH because intimacy in our lives was lacking in other areas. I needed SF with DH to feel reassured of intimacy. I think it became my substitute for affection and admiration.

Before I met DH, when I was in high school and my first couple of years in college, I sought attention from guys and would pretty much do whatever I wanted b/c I wanted them to like me. I wanted their attention and their affection, but in reality what I got was a lack of respect and I was treated like garbage. I can't put myself in DH's shoes b/c I was never cheated on - I was always dumped before my relationships got to that point.

When I met DH, he was different. Yes, we had SF before we were married. In fact, we'd known each other for a few months and were in the same circle of friends. We were actually "hooked up" by one of those friends in what I thought was a one-night stand. But here's where DH was different. After we made love that night, he had to go to work. I honestly figured he wouldn't come back. But he did. He came back to me before the morning. And I knew he wasn't like the other guys that used me like so much garbage.

I was completely messed up when I met DH. I was failing out of college. I'd just gotten out of a relationship with an emotional abuser, a guy that pretty much all we did together was drink and get high and I allowed to insult me and put me down. DH was different. He was my rock. I straightened out. I settled down. I ended up changing my major and going on to grad school. And I give him the credit for getting me off the self-destructive spiral I was on.

And yet I allowed myself to self-destruct again, when I had so much more at stake in my life. I allowed myself to be treated as garbage by OM. And none of the above negates the fact that I willingly entered into a relationship with OM. Yes, there was a lot of "sexy" talk, but I was so caught up in the fantasy I would have talked about nuclear physics if I had the OM's attention - I craved the attention and the "high" I got from it. Of course, the fact that sex was not my motivator doesn't change the fact that I did it.

Regardless of what happens, I do know myself better now. I know why the A happened. Yeah, I still start beating myself up sometimes with "why, why WHY???" but Harley's "formula" for A's is pretty straightforward. I know how to maintain my boundaries and stick to EPs to keep one from happening ever again. I get beaten down some days, but I make a choice every day to continue to fight for my M.

I think often about that first night DH and I were together. How he came back.

Anyway, I'm babbling. It's been a long day. Tomorrow will be better. [/quote]

No, you are exactly right. Neither me or your FWW can blame the OM's for the A. Sure, OM pushed. But we allowed it. We welcomed it. But as I've seen on other threads, the OM was under no obligation to protect our M - it was OUR responsibility, and one we failed at.


I'm so sorry, Gamma...I know I've done some horrible things, but verbally degrading DH's appearance I've never done. I understand that a man can view an A in that light, however, but hear me out for a sec.

The emotionally abusive relationship I was in prior to DH was with a man who constantly belittled me. He called me fat, he told me my breasts were too small, he insulted my intelligence and called me stupid. Sad thing is he wasn't the first guy I put up with who degraded my appearance, he was just one of the worst. I couldn't imagine saying something like that to anyone b/c I know how that feels.

Unfortunately it didn't stop me from hurting DH in other ways, with other words, maybe not said directly to him but words he read nonetheless. He uncovered so much evidence in the form of emails and texts that he has a lot of words to get over. I said stupid cr@p to OM like "When I hear a love song I think of you, not the man I married." WTF is that? Makes me want to throw up. DH can barely stand to listen to music anymore because of a stupid statement like that. It doesn't matter that it's not true now, in the present, because I said it during the A. I try to do things to counter stuff like that, I'll send song lyrics to DH and I even made him a "mix CD" for Valentine's Day. DH is the only man on my mind now. I just keep trying to show him that. He's told me that he fears he can never compare to what I had with OM. Out of the fog, in reality, the truth is that DH is so much more than OM ever was or could be.



Makes sense. When he texted that to me yesterday I didn't address the content of the message, I stuck to emphasizing that he was my choice, that I was committed to him and our future together. If he read it in some of what I wrote, I'm not denying I wrote it. And saying it is not true, well, it's still something I said, and my word right now is worth pretty much nothing. But I agree, none of that is consistent with how I see myself now, and I hate remembering it because I hate who I was and what I did. I don't want to give OM any more space in my mind.

I'm not in withdrawal from the A/OM anymore. The thought of having any contact with OM makes me sick. Right now I'm desperately in love with my DH. I can't even begin to imagine what withdrawal from DH will feel like if he decides that I'm not worth it. I think DH believes sometimes still that when I get down, that I am depressed over not having OM (not making a DJ, he's actually said as much to me). OM is not why I get depressed - I get depressed over what I have done, over the pain DH is in, the obstacles in the whole recovery process. Nor am I still an active wayward. I'm doing all I can to show DH that I am transparent, open, honest, accountable. I refuse to fail him again.



Thanks, HHH...I hope so too. There are some positive signs. I'm not losing hope! btw, my poly is scheduled for Monday. I'm ready to do it and put that behind me and hope it will at least give DH some reassurance I'm telling the truth. And I wish only the best for you and your FWW. I'm glad if our experiences help you both in any way. If you and your FWW are religious in any way, I highly recommend adding to your reading list "Love and Respect" (Eggerichs) and Chapman's "Five Love Languages." I actually read those before I found MB, but I've found they compliment what I have learned/am learning in MB very well. I also liked Nancy Anderson's "Avoiding the Greener Grass Syndrome" - and Anderson is a FWW who was able to successfully reconcile with her H and rebuild their M. lol those will keep you busy for a while!

There's a lot of reason behind it, WPG.

We read over your posts last night, and as you were going over your own history, how you behave, etc, FWW looked at me and said "Is she my long lost twin or something?"

Similar stories are bound to happen; similar lives, thought processes, attitudes.

It's one of the reasons we are drawn to things like "group therapy." We want to know how other people view things, and the more people appear similar to us, the more we are able to understand ourselves and other through them if we can't do it on our own.

May have to check those books out - we were reading SAA, but have kind of fallen out of it. Not that it wasn't interesting, but we had been over so much of it that it felt like a lot of retread.

May have to get back and picking at it and finish it. I know someone who needs it now more than we do...

Looks like Conflict to me�.

I actually had something similar occur in connection with my A. I was, as far as I can tell, able to explain to my H in a way he is able to accept and I want to share that with you FWIW.

You said:


Could this have resulted in you developing certain unhealthy attitudes towards SF that you carried into your M?

I was taught that SF was dirty and secret, that my body and its workings were a source of shame. I cheapened SF, so giving it away was no big deal. I started dating my H when I was 15 (note my advanced age) and naturally carried those 15 year old girl hang-ups into my M likely more than I would have had I married someone else.

With OM, I was free to be whatever � nothing remotely �out there� happened. It was more about my ability to relax, to shed that 15-year-old girl. It was still just sex � the spiritual dimension I had always longed for that gave the act meaning wasn�t present with OM either.

I explained that to my H that it wasn�t that OM was superior in any way � the difference was in me. I told him that I wanted to take what I had learned about myself and use that information to create a healthy, spiritually connected sexual relationship that was expressive of our bond. Since my answer made sense in the context of our relationship, he seems to have accepted it.


It is true you can�t put yourself in your BH�s shoes, but in effect you dumped him so you have an idea. I find it helpful to look back on those times that I have felt most betrayed by people I trusted, and think what actions they could have taken to restore trust.

I think this may be on your H�s mind. I do the self-destruct thing too. My H said he didn�t want to get in the way of the shrapnel again. If your H sees that self-destructive pattern in your behavior, he may have a non-specific fear of the pattern repeating. Have you considered telling him the self-destructive pattern you have noticed and sharing with him what steps you are taking to get yourself healthy? He may not feel you are safe until you are healthier.


What do you think he was trying to express with that message?

How did it make you feel?

Consider completing the feedback loop.

Assume he�s saying �I�m hurting badly�

Validate the feeling. �I know how badly you are hurting.�

Accept responsibility: �I am responsible for you hurting like this�you did nothing to deserve the pain I have inflicted on you.�

Describe intended course of action: �I can�t go back and un-do it, but I am going to do whatever I can to make amends and make this a safe M for you.�

Describe your feeling: �You text made me feel dirty and hopeless (or whatever you felt � that�s how I would have reacted)(a DJ). I want to talk about the content with you as I know it is a source of great pain (see above).�

Suggest a different way of communicating the same feeling: �When you are hurting, I want to know so that I can do whatever there is to do to help me. Next time that happens, could you come to me and say �I�m hurting� instead or is there another signal we can agree on?�

State your goal: I want to create a wonderful intimate M with you as you are the absolute love of my life. Do you have any thoughts on how we can achieve that?

Re-validate: I know how much I�ve hurt you, and I am so sorry.

I think it is important for you to tell him how the text made you feel for a few reasons. First, O & H � probably the number one EN of 99% of BS�s for a while.

Second, I think you are getting worn out. Communicating your expectations on a respectful safe way to discuss the A will conserve your emotional energy. If the A keeps popping up in unexpected ways and situations, your resulting anxiety is going to take its toll and any resulting resentment will make it harder for you to genuinely try to meet his needs.

Third, if he�s in Conflict, he may need something to conflict with if that makes sense.

Finally, are you familiar with the concept of secondary gain?

DrH says:


The link to the whole Q&A is: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html I encourage you to read the whole article.

That may not have any relevance to your fact pattern, but you might want to be aware of it. I know there are no norms and I can�t begin to understand what a BH is going through. Sending that text over 10 months after DD seems like a long time.

I hope the polygraph will put some of this to rest.

There are four choices following infidelity:
1. The spouses decide to work to create a healthy marriage
2. One or both spouses choose to divorce and work to become healthy individuals
3. The spouses choose to stay in an unhealthy marriage
4. One or both spouses choose to divorce and stay unhealthy individuals.

Which box are you checking? Which box is he checking?

Oh yeah. I can definitely see that I had unhealthy attitudes towards sex. My parents barely had the "birds and bees" talk with me. I remember the day Mom sat me down, though. I'd just spent the weekend at my grandmother's house with my little brother, my cousin (who was a year older than me) and one of her girl friends. My brother was probably around 4, which would have put me at about 9. My grandmother had let all the kids take a bath together. My cousin's friend started playing with my brother and putting him on top of her. Of course I was clueless at the time but I was sitting there watching my brother get molested. Anyway once my parents found out, Mom sat me down for a very cursory "birds and bees" talk and that was it. Never got any further information from them. And the whole bathtub incident was never discussed again. I too felt like my body was dirty, that sex was not something that you talk about. I cheapened the act too - I stayed a virgin until my senior year in high school, but after that, once I got to college, I couldn't understand what the big deal was and I gave my body away to whoever would show me a little bit of attention.


Good point. I have offered him the freedom to read my journal and my notebook I have for the Respect Dare course. I've been leaving them out in the open and writing in them in front of him, but today I told him I did not mind if he read them. I've told him I don't mind him reading my thread here, either. Part of protecting myself from self-destructive behaviors is maintaining my boundaries. A fear I have in the back of my mind is how successful I will be if DH decides he's done. How successful will I be at keeping myself from self-destructing?


I agree I have not been doing great at being O&H about my feelings. I'm afraid to let DH see me as anything other than positive, optimistic and hopeful...I am afraid to "push" him or do anything that makes him uncomfortable. I finally emailed him about a few things that were on my mind (the text was one, and another was last night where he woke me up and started cuddling with me - he wasn't real sexually aggressive and I was afraid to take things further because I wasn't sure what he wanted...argh!) And I do feel like I am getting worn out holding all of it in. Writing here and journaling is helping. I still have my near-panic attacks and will start crying for no reason but each day is a chance to get better. I am still hopeful because he does pop into conflict and even intimacy from time to time, but I see your point that being O&H will give us something to be in conflict about - a chance to start putting the MB concepts to work and give us some things to start POJA'ing on...

DNM sent me the link to that article yesterday about resentment and secondary gain. I can't imagine being 10 years out and like S.K.'s situation.


Thanks for all the advice, seeking...I know which one I want. I am still hopeful DH wants the same one.

Yep. After reading "Surviving An Affair", "Love Busters", and "Effective Marriage Counseling", "His Needs, Her Needs for Parents" feels like a retread, too. We stopped before we got to the chapter on handling conflicts over housework... that's the next one we want to read, I think.

Unless he saw you as always positive, optimistic and hopeful pre-A, this is probably scaring the bejesus out of him.

My H got really nervous when I went all cheerful and upbeat on him.

BS�s can smell inauthenticity a mile away, even if they can�t put their finger on it. Like a deer in the headlights, they freeze or run.


When was the last time you had a fight or asked him to do something you knew he didn�t want to do? When was the last time you addressed a substantive conflict ridden issue in your M or regarding your kids where the A did NOT come up?


I can�t imagine being ten months out and being in your situation.


Have you told him this? I think it is one of the most important conversations I have ever had with my H. It brought out a tenderness in him I didn�t think he had.


Fear talking here. Fear and intimacy cannot coexist in the same person.

Consider sitting down and talking to him about the pattern you have noticed. Ask him what he has observed. Talk through the different contexts which trigger your self destructive tendencies. For me, it�s feeling powerless. For you, it might be something else. Strategize with him on how he can help you manage this. Communicate that you NEED him. Men like that. JL said so so it must be true.

I think � and remember I know NOTHING � that each of you is keeping the A alive and kicking for your own set of reasons. It feeds your lack of self worth, or fear of intimacy or masochistic tendencies. I don�t know � but it is serving a purpose.

Ask yourself what purpose it is serving you and address those issues. Then ask him what it would take to close the door on this chapter of your life in a very short time frame, as in within a week.

DrH does not advocate dragging out the discussion of the A over months. If you are allowing or inviting that to continue, you are making a choice to not follow the MB program.

This isn't good for you, him, your M or your children.

Do all of yourselves a favor. Locate your backbone and close the door on the A, firmly, kindly and permanently.

He is still there for a reason. Start playing to win. Right now, you are playing not to lose.

WPG,

but verbally degrading DH's appearance I've never done. I understand that a man can view an A in that light, however, but hear me out for a sec.

Well actually you did by saying OM was bigger, when I read what you wrote I immediately translated that into H is smaller. For a guy, painful honesty I'm sorry, that statement makes time stand still and all other history becomes prelude.

And I do understand that the things you said during the A are not at the front of your mind now, but are they still there?

One trait I think perhaps I have in common with your H is that it takes me a long time to trust given my background, when however I do trust subsequent betrayal is devastating.

God Bless
Gamma

DNM,

It was that people tend to forget actions that are inconsistent with their view of themselves. FWW had forgotten because those actions were no longer consistent with her current behavior and view of herself. Jennifer encouraged me not to try to force her to remember those incidents, as FWW was trying so hard to forget them. Every time I brought them up again, I was reinforcing that memory which, in order for us to recover, she would eventually have to forget. Reinforced memories take longer to expire, extending her withdrawal symptoms.

Thanks for writing that,

How did Jennifer suggest you get the full truth if you don't bring up the incidents?

God Bless
Gamma

I don't think the continued focus on the A by you or your H is healthy, nor is it the MB program.

In the MB program, DrH says there should be a finite period of time where the A is discussed, and then it ends.

If you are doing MB, you need to close that door. It's not an easy door to close, but what a relief when it happens. But it has to close the right way.

The point is not why or whether you have forgotten. The point is to give your H the information he needs to move on within a specific time frame -- I'd give him no more than three days after the polygraph results which frankly had I come on the scene earlier I would have strongly discouraged you from doing --such that the A can be put to rest. Over a year after DD1, and 10 months after DD2, the A appears to be dominating both of your lives.

I find it hard to believe that anyone on this site is going to think that there is anything remotely healthy or helpful about him sending you a text about relative penis size in the middle of a work meeting that causes you to break down and cry.

There is something seriously sick about that, IMO.

DrH is does not believe that long term discussions (i.e. 10 months) about the A are useful to restoring the M, and in fact suggests otherwise.

WP if you are going to implement the MB program, you need to set a serious near term boundary on this discussion and then move on to the other elements of the program.

It is your H's choice to not move on with you.

If I sit down and purposely try to remember words said, I can remember some of it. I can remember details about where we had lunch together; I can probably remember what I ordered off the menu andthe clothes I wore; I can remember details about the sex; I can tell you what the inside of his house looked like; etc. But why on earth would I WANT to do that? I don't want to remember any of it. So I purposely DON'T dwell on it because it makes me miserable.


Yes, I can see that in my H. He did start to trust me again and yet I lied to him for months, and that had made it so much worse.

Thanks seeking - your words have really helped.


Good point. We haven't had any fights/conflicts, even minor disagreements other than A-related. I have generally let him do what he wants to do without a peep. And it's not that there have been many things we've fought over pre-A - we have thus far been pretty much in agreement when it comes to the kids, for example. Our biggest disagreement area was money. I used to manage all the finances and I'd complain over his spending, which he said was a LB...so now I've been trying to NOT complain about his spending but I think I went way too far to the other extreme and have been letting him buy whatever he wants. I've been so scared to make him mad at me I've kept quiet.

ahhh, I am so stupid.


He knows some of it. Never told him about the thing with my brother and our cousin's friend. Always felt like that was my bro's secret and I shouldn't talk about it. He does know that I was date-raped in college (long story short, passed out drunk in a guy's bed, woke up naked with no idea what happened).


And JL is one smart cookie! I was honest with him yesterday about the fear I feel. Since he hadn't seemed like he wanted to talk I emailed him. He responded, not so much directly to my fears, I don't know, it was wierd, but we ended up having SF and going out to have dinner together so it must have helped somehow. He said in the email that I deserve a second chance. But I guess I get gun-shy because he's told me a zillion things since January and then they seem to change and he seems to act like he regrets - or forgets - saying them...I know it's my fear talking but I can't help it.




I feel like I can't let it go because it is so present for him...every time I try to pull myself beyond it and move forward something happens that smacks me in the face with it again - whether it's a text, DH withdrawing or pulling away, and immediately the whole "I'm a wh*re" tape starts playing in my head again. I'm much better at distracting myself now but that's not the point...the point is I desperately want healing to begin.

JC said I couldn't be too MB-heavy with DH until he commits to the program, and he still has not told me that he's ready to do MB together. Oh, sure, he posts here but that doesn't mean he wants to put the concepts in place. Although she did tell me that if he wouldn't commit, then in a month write another letter similar to the first one. It's past time for that.

Question - why would you have advised against the poly? Yeah, I really don't feel like doing it. It's expensive and I'm sick of dredging the facts of the A up. He told me he believed me - after January, after he had the whole truth - then he allowed doubts to creep in to the point he doesn't believe me anymore. DJ coming, I know - but I think he'll end up doing the same thing with the poly. Claim they're only 85-95% accurate! Or I found a way to beat it! Whatever. At that point I don't know what I'll do, but at least I will know I did everything I could to try and address the doubts.

I know it's not good for any of us. My emotions/mental health has been so dodgy for so long that my physical health is suffering. The kids are resilient, but they know something's wrong. They were so happy when things were going well, I mean DH and I would be hugging or cuddling and they'd jump right in, "Family hug!" But I was lying to DH during all of it. And I worry about DH's health, emotionally/mentally/physically.

Anyway, my posts are the longest posts ever, lol...I just wanted to thank you for what you said, seeking. I know it's his choice. I'm going to give him a poly, I'm going to keep giving him Plan A as best I can, but yeah, I have set a "date" in my head - I haven't told him, but yes, there is a point where I am going to make a decision what to do. I will call Jennifer C. before I do it so she can help me. I love him so much and I wish I could just take the last 2 years back. Erase and start over.

WPG, two quick points:

1) If DH wants you to take a poly, take it. You're not a defendant in court trying to get off easy in an adversarial situation . You're a FWW who's trying to help her BH heal.

2) Don't give him deadlines & ultimatums . You're only 14 months past D-Day #1. Unless you can say with a straight face & no doubts that you're being genuinely abused, you do what love does & persevere, and you implement the Four Rules. Focus.

Next time he's watching TV by himself, even if it's not your kind of show, go down & offer to fix him him a glass of that Mountain Dew crap that he likes, and just sit with him a little while.

How incredibly foggy. It is not for the FWS to place time limits on BS recovery. It is not for the FWS to decide what information the BS needs or what they should do with it. There has been one FR already and WPG was a convincing liar. How is BH supposed to tell truth from fiction now? A polygraph is frequently recommended in cases like this.


x2

I believe you are doing some very hard work. Though sometimes you miss some key points.

Think about Friday night and why your BH got out of bed.

He hasn�t asked for it, has indicated he won�t believe it, WP hasn't told him she is taking it, and it is a lot of money.

Spending a lot of money without telling him for something he hasn't asked for and has indicated he will not accept doesn't strike me as a useful thing to do.

Originally Posted By: seekingbalance
The point is to give your H the information he needs to move on within a specific time frame -- I'd give him no more than three days after the polygraph results which frankly had I come on the scene earlier I would have strongly discouraged you from doing --such that the A can be put to rest.



I believe what I suggested is in line with MB principles. If JC has told WP something different, she should follow JC.

I don't want y'all to misunderstand anything I said - any "deadlines" right now are for me and only me - JC recommended a 6-month Plan A and then told me I'd need to reassess, because she said it would be difficult if not impossible to Plan A forever. And I don't know what decision I will make. She said I've got 3 options if DH is unwilling or uninterested in MB - an indefinite Plan A, "live with it," or Plan B. I don't want to give up, but I do want us to work together in recovery. Recovery is my ultimate goal. No, I am not giving him any ultimatums now. JC said it is about encouraging him to work MB together and trying to do that in such a way that I'm not DJ-ing him if he sees it as "educating" him.

He hasn't straight out asked for a poly either. I set it up, I am paying for it and I scheduled it - because I can't think of another way to address the doubts that he has, the doubts that I caused him to have by trickle-truthing him. And I want to do everything I can possibly do.



I wish I could figure it out. If I'm too eager for SF, it's a trigger. If I'm not responsive, it's a trigger. I wasn't hesitant in bed b/c I didn't want him...I'm hesitant b/c I'm scared to go either way. Part of it is fear of hurting him with whatever I do, but the other part is a selfish fear of rejection, and that is something that I have to push aside. Perfect love casts out fear and all that...we're human and can't be "perfect" but we can strive to do so. Anyway here's the email I sent him yesterday, after he got out of bed the night before:


I tried to make "I" statements and not "you," tried to avoid anything that would be a LB, and just tried to be honest about how I am feeling. I might have pushed it a little saying how I saw his wall come down when I got home - maybe I shouldn't have said that or should have phrased it differently, I don't know.

Today has been better. We had a nice time together yesterday and today he's been talkative and seems more open, and more importantly I've seen him smile. We have plans with this kids this afternoon and then grocery shopping, and I need to get the ingredients for a butterfinger cheesecake I promised him (yum!).

That was a very heart warming email. It addressed your feelings and you didn't make him feel responsible for your holding back. You let him know you were just afraid of doing the wrong thing.

The wall thing was kind of a DJ, but at least he knows why you were apprehensive.

I think you are doing well. Your BH is just still so hurt and it takes time.

Best Wishes

My point is that the facts are not known to the BH. He got trickle-truthed for however many months, and has no way of knowing if he knows "everything" or if there is another shoe waiting to drop when he lets his guard down again.

WPG, I think you're absolutely doing the right thing, I hope it goes well for you, and I hope it gives your BH some peace of mind.

Baby steps! Yay!

You'll see the light, WPG! Keep at it.


If there is anything I am learning, it is you have to make sure to get your time in.

How many times have we all heard that?

Get your 15+ hours of UA time in! Get your 15+ hours of UA time in! Get your 15+ hours of UA time in! Get your 15+ hours of UA time in! Get your 15+ hours of UA time in! Get your 15+ hours of UA time in! Get your 15+ hours of UA time in! Get your 15+ hours of UA time in! Get your 15+ hours of UA time in! Get your 15+ hours of UA time in! Get your 15+ hours of UA time in! Get your 15+ hours of UA time in! Get your 15+ hours of UA time in! Get your 15+ hours of UA time in! Get your 15+ hours of UA time in! Get your 15+ hours of UA time in! Get your 15+ hours of UA time in! Get your 15+ hours of UA time in! Get your 15+ hours of UA time in! Get your 15+ hours of UA time in!


All it takes is just 1 missed day for me, and I start circling the drain. I've done it TWICE over the last week.

That's just from missing one day's worth of UA time! And it's not like we were apart, either. We were shopping, carving pumpkins with the kids, had a horror movie night.

We were having a good time, but when we do not get that UA time in... the first time I leave home for school or work, the resentment, pain, and anger start bubbling up.

Get that time in!

Good luck!

Hi all...I went today for my poly. Anyway, long story short, I passed. I had a list of issues and DH added more. The examiner worked to combine the issues into questions - for example, DH had wondered whether or not I met OM while he was on a business trip, and also when he took the girls to the beach. She combined it into asking had I had physical contact with OM anytime DH had been out of town.

He wanted to know if OM was bigger and if I had an orgasm. She explained why she wasn't going to ask those and I asked her to please explain to DH why she didn't ask them so it was not coming from me. I'd given him the examiner's contact info prior to setting up the test so he could have called her and asked about specific questions and how the tests are conducted - I asked the examiner today if she'd talked to him at all prior to the test and she said no.

I have not told DH about passing the test. He didn't come with me. He asked me yesterday "what do you want me to do?" and yesterday I said "I don't know." Today I emailed him and said he needed to do what he felt that he needed - come or not come, I felt like if he believed that he needed to come then he could be there, he knew time/place. I took my mother with me just so I didn't have to go alone and I could have some moral support.

It was nervewracking, even though I was telling the truth. The funny thing is, I don't feel any better after it. I feel just the same anxiety that I have been feeling. I don't think it will be some kind of "magic switch" for our relationship. But I've done it.

HHH, totally agree with you about the UA time. When DH does something, even something small, that shows he is trying to meet my needs it does all sorts of wonderful things to me! The weekend was overall nice, we spent time together Friday. Saturday we kind of rushed around and time together was with the kids. Yesterday we went to church and took the kids trick-or-treating. I bought a costume myself and tried to interest DH in a little...uhm...role playing last night but he turned me down.

Right now I'm drained from the afternoon. I should have gone back home but I just didn't want to. I came back to the office. I want the examiner to be the one to tell DH about the results, not me. She's supposed to call him today, I'm hoping she went ahead and called him when we left.

This is going to come out sounding self-centered, but I just want to feel better. I want DH to take me in his arms and hold me and tell me that now he believes me and that he's ready to start working on recovery in earnest.

WPG,

Good thing you took the test, however I think you made a few tactical mistakes.

1) not hiring a old MALE law enforcement experienced tester.

2) not asking the really important questions the answers to which should be Yes/No

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma, the tester is former ALE in our state (Alchohol Law Enforcement) and went through training with that agency and worked with them as an examiner prior to striking out on her own. What difference does it make whether the person is male or female? I've worked in the criminal justice field ever since coming out of college and I see just as many capable females as males.

I presented her with the entire list of questions and issues that I had including the ones that DH requested. She formulated the questions based on her knowledge and for each question she asked it was a yes/no answer. e.g., "Did you have sex with [OM] more than 2 times during your entire relationship with [DH]?" "Did you have sex (defined as intercourse, oral, etc) on any of your (mine or DH's) property (property being house, vehicles, furniture, the yard, bicycles, whatever)?"

Polygraph examinations aren't like what you see on TV. Even working in the CJ field for as long as I have, this was the first time I'd ever taken one, and I'd never even seen one in real life. I was expecting the box with the needles scratching on paper, but it is all computers now. They aren't like TV where you see people answering question after question and being grilled - the interviewer asks a series of control questions, some of which you tell the truth to and some you are asked to lie to so that the computer can gauge your responses. There are only a couple of the so-called "relevant" questions on each test. And everything must be answered yes/no and the terms in the questions are agreed upon just as above (what constitutes sex? what constitutes property?).

WPG,

I thought orgasm or not is a YES/NO question. If my W came back with that I would have suspected collusion.

When I took my poly. I don't think I could have evaded a question that definite.

God Bless
Gamma

It doesn't sound like WPG was evading the questions. It sounds more like the poly examiner didn't want to ask:


WPG, can you tell us why the examiner declined to ask those questions? They do seem like straightforward yes-or-no questions.

Gamma, there were several issues that could not be combined and would have needed additional tests. Each test consists of two questions that deal with one issue. We began with verifying that NC is in place, the # of times I had sex with OM, then the out-of-town and property questions as stated in my earlier posts. All 4 of those questions combined several related issues. The examiner I saw does not do more than 2 tests in one day for one person - in fact, she recommended only one as they are stressful even if you are telling the truth. Those are the things I wanted her to explain to my DH. I didn't evade anything. That is for DH to decide now. Other than continuing my progress in the Respect Dare and continuing to Plan A, which includes meeting DH's EN's and avoiding LBs, sticking to my EPs and so on, I do not know what else I can do to prove my truthfulness. And DH is the one who has to make a decision on that matter.

It's been a long day and I'm getting all worked up over this now so I need to step back, because I'm running the risk of LB'ing my DH this evening.

bitbucket, please see my last response - that clarifies the reasons why the examiner did not ask those questions.

WP -- remember your LB is taking withdrawals whether you are aware of it or not. I'm guessing the polygraph was a pretty whopping big withdrawal.

Now that he has all the information, please set a boundary on how long you are willing to talk about the A, then enforce it.

It is impossible to create intimacy with someone who is throwing A bombs at you willy nilly with no warning or apparent good reason that I can figure out except to keep you on edge and inflict pain.

There are other ways for your H to communicate his feelings besides texting you about relative size in the middle of a work day. He could text you "I'm feeling insecure". The feelings can be addressed without reference to the details of the A.

Gamma, I don't see how it is helpful to offer WP an after the fact criticism of the process the professional WP hired to conduct it believed was the correct process. After such an ordeal, hearing that she did it wrong in your opinion does nothing but feed her already consuming fear that whatever she does will never be enough. The goal here is to support, not undermine.

WP, if your H chooses not to believe the polygraph for any reason, remember that's his choice. And it is a choice.

I'm finding the fact that this thread has this focus after so long sort of sickening, so I'm going to bow out now, but WP you will be in my thoughts and prayers -- as a WW who has tried to implement MB principles unilaterally, I feel your pain.

You are right - I didn't even think about it that way. I went back to work after because I was all keyed up and didn't want to come home, and I could not figure out why I was so angry. I didn't know whether it was at me, or DH, or what - I was just MAD. Then I got home and I asked him if he talked to the examiner and he said yes, we talked a little bit and he said, "Why are you so worked up?" Now I am thinking, oh, OK...duh. I mean, I feel like it was something I had to do, but d@mn it was draining.


I know. I just feel so powerless. I am still in love with DH and it's killing me.



seeking, thank you for your support - I do appreciate it.

Should she then proceed on to setting a boundary on the pace and time frame for recovery?

"All the information" is something that has to be decided by him.

That is up to HIM, and it is a hurdle that must be cleared. It hasn't been, and that is why they are where they are this long in.


WPG, I get you. I really do. Last time I tried to let OMGF know what had happened, just the attempt, just dialing her number, or seeing it come up when she called me back, DESTROYED me all over again.

But, it had to be done. It was a hurdle that I had to clear. I don't regret it, and it no longer eats at me.

Your work and dedication to recovery, and to commit to doing whatever it takes to recover is undeniably admirable. As is the fact that you wholly own your responsibility for the choices and actions that lead to this moment.

The last conversation FWW and I had about the A, that is what occurred - ownership of the decisions and actions.

Maybe it wasn't MB-based. Probably not recommended. Maybe wouldn't work for everybody. But we had gone over it over until this last conversation. Now I do not feel like talking about it any more. There is nothing more for me to say, nothing left to ask. And that is a relief that I cannot explain.

Want to add; I am also noticing that if we miss UA time and I start to spiral, it takes more time in than time missed to get me back up again. Keep that in mind for both of you.

WP,

Congratulations on taking the Poly. Although he might not admit it now, I am sure that having a few of your answers substantiated has helped him.

I will tell you that I reamed your H big time on his thread for not being honest with you about his feelings. IN fact I called him a liar, and he has been in that regard.

why am I telling you this? Because it is imperative that you quit second guessing yourself and start being honest with your H. When you need a hug from him, ask for it. When you fear things talk with him about YOUR fears, and seek his help or advice. He does not have to solve your problems but it is best to keep him in the loop.

Don't you see the pattern here? He was closed to you for years. I call this lying by omission. You had an affair, and lied to him by omission and just flat out lied. Worse you lied to yourself. He was open with you during FR and it helped you tremendously, but unfortunately you were still lying to him.

He then closed himself off again, and won't tell you why he does things like the bedroom incident. You meanwhile are trying to do the right thing, which means you are holding back on him. You need his help, you need him in your life, you fear something, you want to help, you want to talk about what you learned, YOU MUST OPEN UP AND BE HONEST. You have not been by the same standard I applied to him.

Have you realized that the history of your marriage is withholding information? Have you realized that a new marriage requires that you SHARE information.

I know he is hurt, and I know his trust level isn't high, but frankly neither is yours. You don't trust him much thus you constantly second guess what you should say or not say.

I am not saying blurt out anything that comes to mind, but I am saying if you expect him to communicate with you, do the same with him.

I say trust he will do the best he can, so make sure he has the best information possible...be open and honest. Seek his help, seek his advice, seek his comfort and show him that he is needed.

Finally, this issue of the OM's size. I suspect that size was not the issue, but focusing on it is a marker for his deeper fears. What are they? Simple, he fears he has never satisfied you and he never will. His trust in himself has been destroyed and it must be rebuilt. Know what might help? You being more demanding in bed. Tell him what you want, how you want it, where you want it, and then make sure he knows if and when he satisfies you. I know this sounds backwards, but trust me, us guys want to know when we satisfy our W's and we don't need lies. We need guidance if we are not getting it done.

My guess you were more open with OM, because deep down you didn't care what he thought. You worry what your H would think of you if you wanted something a bit...different. Yet, if you were to ask, showed/explained how you wanted it and it was successful, it is one more demonstration that he could satisfy you.

As they say in many sports, sometimes the best defense is a good offense. Think about this.

God Bless,

JL

I forgot about something; this episode Friday night. Has anything like that occurred prior to the A? Ask him.

I went through exactly that scenario, over and over, for years prior to closing myself off.

Same guilt; dishonesty by omission.

WP � I hesitate to speak after JL as anyone would � since I read whatever he says, I found myself back on your thread.

I don�t know who your H is so I haven�t read his thread.

I try REALLY hard not to project my personal situation on my posts to others. REALLY hard. I�m probably crossing that line with this post, but I�m going to say it anyway.

Know reading what I am about to say that if my H asked me to take a polygraph on the details of my relationship with OM, my response would have been an immediate and unequivocal �shall we have one lawyer or two � I�ve been researching collaborative divorce, and I think we can do that.�

Why? Because I recognize that if he were to put me through that as a condition for reconciliation, I would hate him so much there would be zero hope of building a healthy marriage. Given that he already hated me for having an A, I would simply end it there.

I don�t know if DrH has weighed in on the utility of polygraphs in infidelity, but in my opinion they have only one legitimate use: is the affair over?

There is a level of humiliation below which I absolutely refuse to fall. Taking a polygraph is at least 5 degrees below that level. Actually, it doesn�t even have a level it is so far off what I would do. That�s me. I tell you that so you can weigh what I am saying appropriately.

I have to ask you this. Do you REALLY want to be married for the rest of your life to a man who:

1. Will not commit to a marriage recovery program.
2. Will not let your A go and evidently brings it up at whatever time he wants in whatever way he wants with wanton disregard of how that might impact you in that moment.
3. Sends you A bombs in the middle of your work day 10 months out, thereby demonstrating zero understanding of your emotional state and vulnerability.
4. Sort of maybe kind of wants you to take a polygraph where you will be questioned about intimate humiliating details of your life.
5. Won�t commit to accepting the results of that polygraph as dispositive.
6. Doesn�t go with you to the polygraph, thereby reserving the right to question the whole process.
7. Doesn�t go with you to the polygraph to ensure that the exact questions he wants answered are asked and answered in a form and way he finds acceptable,
8. In my opinion, is obsessing to a grotesque and repellant degree on the physical details.
9. Puts you through that ordeal, which is solely for his benefit, without his presence to support you.
10. Reserves the right to question the results of the polygraph, and/or bring up the results and/or any details of the A at any time in the future he thinks he needs to �heal�.

How do you see your future with such a man (and at this point, I�m using that term loosely)? How do you envision your children�s future? What is going to be their �take-away� message about marriage from a father who does that and a mother who puts up with it?

There is a poster to your thread who is who are obsessing about the most intimate (�how wet did she get?") details his wife�s affairs twenty years after the A � is that where you are headed?

Really, what are you fighting for? From where I sit, it�s an illusion of what you wish your H was, but, based upon his passive/aggressive/punishment mode, never will be. He�s choosing that by the way. He doesn't want to get over it.

My M is not recovered. If it doesn�t, it will be because of what JL said, not because I was unwilling to endure X amount of humiliation or do Y amount of making amends. My M may not recover. But for sure I will.

I hate if for YOU that you took that polygraph as I fear you just gave your H another way demean you.

There seems to be this unspoken suggestion in this forum that a WS has to do whatever for however long. That simply isn�t the case, which is why DrH recommends that once the details of the A are disclosed, the subject is closed.

That doesn�t sit well with BS�s who are in the majority here. Many BS�s post vociferously about any limits on discussion of the A as the WS trying to �control the pace and scope of recovery�.

Never mentioning the A after the details are disclosed is the MB program, and DrH includes it for a reason: it matters to the WS, and it matters to the M.

The goal is recover the M, not serve the interests of the BS or the WS.

And that is exactly how you exemplify the difference between remorseful, and resentful.

Not serving the interest of your spouse is how an A happens, how an A continues, and how an A repeats.

This does not mean that you solely serve the interest of your spouse, but it should be considered, and done so strongly. If it is too much to consider your spouse, maybe you should consider not having one.

WPG, of course, at anytime, you can throw in the towel, start keeping score on all the wrongs your husband has ever done you, and tally up enough of them to maybe make yourself feel just good enough about yourself for long enough to give up on trying to have the marriage you want. Yes, at some point, if your H doesn't back get on-board with the goal of making your marriage better than it ever was before, then you'll need to face that decision. My take is that this isn't the time, not yet. The Harley experience has been that in best-case scenarios (of which yours isn't one, due to the ongoing deception between D-Day#1 and D-Day#2), 2 years can be needed to get to a place where some people (by no means all) feel "recovered." For some, less, but for many others, it's a bit longer, and for some others, it can be a lot longer. Where do YOU want to be, say, 7 years from now? Will you be OK looking back on having quit at, say, a year after D-Day#2? Your H has a track-record of trying to work his way back to your marriage -- that's what he did after D-Day#1.

Kudos to you for taking the poly, WPG. As you know, it's no "magic bullet" - it's a step in the process. Hang in there. Care for each other, even in little ways. Care for him.

1) You know this how? DJ
2)Typical foggy wayward statement "Oh, just let it go!" DJ
3) Not execusable - totally agreed. However, you have no idea of the vulnerability or emotional state of a betrayed spouse, nor does anything in this entire post display a willingness to even attempt to understand it. DJ
4) Sort of kind of maybe - agree. He waffled. Why? Because he feels the need to verify his trust, but is quite possibly put off by hurting his wife. DJ
5) You know this how? Right, you don't. DJ
6) He does? You know this how? DJ
7) You know this motive how? DJ
8) Again, no clue on what a BS goes through. DJ
9) Agree on presence for support. Solely for his benefit? Really? You know this how? DJ
10) Oh really? And you are certain this is the intention? You know this how? DJ

Thanks for playing "How not to MB your M and it's recovery! You are a grand prize winner!

There is one point that should be clear. WPG's H did not demand or even ask for the poly test. She decided that it would help her set his mind straight about a couple of things one was how many times thay had sex during the affair. She claimed two, he did not believe her, the poly apparently supports her claim.

Her H now has one data point that can be confirmed and that he is not required to believe, but knows.

Just some thoughts.

JL

JL,

This is exactly why/how I was able to enjoy SF with the OM. It drives my DH crazy that he feels I "affaired down". What I have tried to tell him is that it wasn't OM, it was me when I was with OM. I didn't lhave to live up to any expectations that I feel my DH has imposed on me. I was more free because I didn't care as much!

Wulffpack_girl,

I am sorry I haven't read the entire thread - only parts here and there. What I see is some of the things my H struggled with (still does??? I don't know). He felt that nothing he did was good enough to help me heal... at one point, almost 3 years after the A!, he got so discouraged that he started to withdraw and build a wall around him. THAT got me so upset - I couldn't take it for more than a week. I cried and cried and told him we should consider separation.

My point is - don't give up! My H has tried really hard to prove his dedication and love and I still drop A bombs because of the triggers. I probably shouldn't, but I can't help it. And yet, I NEED to see and feel his attempts at making "us" work. He's been very successful and there are more good days than bad days. But if he stops, there's no future for us, I'm afraid.

I hope so. I do have a lot of fear that I've given him more to doubt. GO is right, though, I do know that perfect love casts out fear. I am a long way from perfect yet...I would agree with you, JL, I think the trust issue is a problem for both sides. More on that in a bit.

We did not really dicuss the poly yesterday. I just didn't want to talk about it, and he didn't bring it up. I did apologize for being "all worked up" and I'll be honest, Gamma's posts upset me because I immediately started thinking "Cr@p, I've done something else wrong." And although I passed the poly, I didn't pass it with flying colors - the first test I passed with no problems (that one asked about # of times and verified NC); the second test asked if I'd seen OM at any time while DH was out of town and if I'd had sex with OM on any of our property. The first time I took that test, I failed. We stopped the test and the examiner re-interviewed me and we clarified the questions to include "physically" (i.e., "physically meet OM..." or "physically have sex with OM on..."). In the second interview, she said even the sexy talk on the computer - which is property - my mind could register as lying. Following the clarification of the questions, I took the second test again and I passed.

In my mind all I see is that is another door opened for doubt to creep in. I understand it the way the examiner explained it, and she said it was clearly a difference in my responses the second time. As a side note, the "scientist" in me was rather amazed at how specific and detailed the questions need to be and how the mind works.


You're right, JL...I don't completely trust him right now. I know a lot of that is fear talking. I know that he's hurt, and that he, as the BS, must dictate the pace of recovery. But, on the other hand I think about the words he's said or written to me since D-Day #2, of forgiveness and love, of choosing to stay in this marriage with me, and then he shuts down again and does a complete 180. I have this fear that 5 years, 10 years, down the road he's going to turn and look at me and say, "You know what? You weren't worth it" and next I'll be hearing from his attorneys. And yes, that's his choice and I've given him that card to play. And really, it doesn't change things for me as I love him regardless...it's just a fear.

It's hard, too, to ask for things and then not get them ("I love it when you put your arm around me while we're snuggling on the couch") - well, ok, maybe that is not a direct question. It all goes back to fear. That one, fear of rejection.


We failed to communicate for years. Both of us. And I know I am holding back on him now. I could use his love and support today. I'm still just so raw from yesterday. Some people on here have accused me of being too "I focused" so I apologize if this comes across that way, but yesterday took a lot out of me. I tried to tell him a little of that last night before we went to bed. I haven't heard from him today, but then again I haven't tried to contact him today either.


Yes, I see where this works both ways. There are a multitude of things for both of us we're not being O&H about, and I am not talking about the facts of the A - I'm talking about what is going on in each of us now. For example, I discovered yesterday that DH had taken a loan out of his 401(k) without a word to me beforehand. I realize that it's his money, but it still bothered me. But then in response, do I do anything about it? No, I made a couple of comments, "I had heard that borrowing from your 401(k) was not a good idea" which were probably not phrased very well, but I was sort of suprised. And we're not honest about our feelings. I am trying to do better at that but yes, I do still sometimes second-guess everything before I say it. And I feel like I have no clue how he is feeling. I ask him often, especially if I can see in his face that he seems upset or preoccupied, but it's always "nothing."

I'm still here, I'm just working on bouncing back from yesterday.

HHH, I can't recall anything like that ever happening before. A much more likely scenario in our M was me being the aggressor for SF and being turned down. I never got a reason for that either - I came to assume that it meant DH was not attracted to me, that he didn't think I was beautiful anymore, I worried for a time after we had the kids that after seeing childbirth he'd never want to go back down there again, lol If DH wanted SF with me, I very rarely turned him down, even if my other intimate EN's weren't met (as I've said, I think that with DH I accepted SF as a substitute for the other EN's of affection, admiration, conversation, and heck, maybe even RC!) and I can see that maybe this last week that he wanted me to be the "old me," my more aggressive self - the only reason I didn't was my own stupid fears.

That's not entirely true. It's very possible -- and quite likely -- that if you don't respond in the way he expects you to when he Love-Busts you with reminders of the affair, that he'll modify his behavior. Typically betrayed spouses bring up the affair for one of two reasons:

1. The betrayal is too fresh, and we have not yet trained ourselves to control our response to triggers, and act out rather than thinking through the consequences of our emotions, or
2. There is some secondary gain to be had by bringing up the affair, like winning an argument, seeing you cry when we feel bad, etc.

As long as you believe that mechanism #1 is what's at play here, then it's still time to provide loving support. IGNORE the Love-Busting comments about the affair as much as possible. REWARD behavior that you approve of, particularly on the days he refrains from bringing up the affair entirely.

If mechanism #2 is what's kicking in, then it's time for this little excerpt from Dr. Harley:



But can't either one of you do this at any point in your marriage? I mean, here in Utah, at any given moment if you expedite the divorce you're just two weeks away from being single.

Two. Weeks.

And it doesn't matter if there was infidelity or not. No-fault divorces allow you to get a divorce just because you feel like it that day, and then you could walk out from the courthouse where you just got a divorce, write down your information for the clerk, and get a marriage license seconds later.

So this fear of yours isn't rational. This can happen to any person at any time in ANY marriage! It's something we all live with. Build Love Bank balances, work diligently to make sure you meet your husband's most important emotional needs, help guide him in meeting yours, avoid Love Busters, spend enough time together alone to deposit plenty of Love Units, be Radically Honest about your feelings at all times, and get on with your lives.


Go tell him that. Right now. Send him an SMS with that exact message, changing "his" to "your". That's what Radical Honesty is about! How can he possibly meet your needs if he doesn't know them?

But don't expect him to meet them right away. This is a process, not an event. Offer him the opportunity to meet your needs through your honesty.

Hello Sunnydaze,

Could you tell us what the "expectations that I feel my DH has imposed on me" were that made you more free with the OM than your H?

Question #2 is what exactly was it that you "didn't care as much" about with the OM that you did with your H?

I believe the answer to these questions is also what is "driving your DH crazy" because I don't believe he understands either and for him to accept you NOW he needs to know THAT state of mind no longer exists with you today and not simply because the OM is no longer a part of yor life...

He needs to know WHY that state of mind is NOT coming back.

God bless.

Jim

So, on that point, I am more in-line with you than with him. Scenarios play out the same, resulting feelings are similar. Though, I never gave birth, and if I did, I WOULD BE RIIIIIIIIICH!!!!!

And while the floor is open on that; the conversation between you and seeking about SF - and a mention in another thread by another WS kind of struck up an interesting conversation between FWW and I about SF.

FWW hadn't viewed "intimacy" as something involved in SF previous to our relationship, didn't consciously view it as intimate during our M - until the A. It was one of the devastating factors. One of the things stated was "I didn't find what I was looking for," and another is "I never felt any connection." Post-A, her attitude and view towards SF has drifted dramatically. It was because her poor "admission price" to SF, and how she carried it through our marriage - that when she put herself in a situation where there was absolutely no intimacy involved or even intended - that she saw SF as an intimate act. She had always detached intimacy from SF. Not so any more, and I notice that very much.

Pre-A you and her were mirror image on your SF views and attitudes. It's what draws us both to you and your BH's recovery. We read your posts together, and she asks if you are her long-lost sister, or the same woman in another body.

Another thing that has popped up, is this idea of "With OM I felt 'free/not obligated/open' during SF."

What is this saying? It is saying that there is some sort of dysfunction. There is some sort of lack of O&H, and a bevvy of DJ's on the part of one spouse or the other, or both.

This feeling of "not wanting to disappoint" the BS on the part of the WS is directly routed in DJ, and thus the "freedom" experienced with an AP is as false as the fantasy itself. If you can not experience not only the same freedom with your spouse, and in fact more, then one spouse or the other has a DJ to overcome.

Bah. That's something we haven't expanded on, and I'm not sure that I really want to...

Anyway, hopefully your work and sacrifice this week will start to show some dividends for both of you.

Thank you, onefallday for posting. I can't imagine the pain a BS goes through and I'm happy for you that your H is working hard to help you heal. I can understand the urge to retreat and build a wall, though - it is something I struggle with as well. Not because I don't want my H, but some days the discouragement gets too overwhelming. I've struggled a lot with disappointment and discouragement, as I expect many FWS do when in recovery. I take every day as an opportunity for choice - I choose to do whatever I can for my DH to help him heal. I choose to show him love and respect regardless of what he does or doesn't do. We make choices every day, and it is up to us to ensure they are the RIGHT choices - during my A, I made all the wrong choices - but they were MY choices, I made them, I cannot blame them on anyone other than myself. In the same way, making the right choices is my responsibility, today and every day. And because my marriage is the right choice, because my DH is the right choice, that is what I allow to guide me from here on out.

I truly hope that you and your H are able to heal from his A. My DH echoes what you've said in that he's told me it is what I am doing that is helping to keep him here. If that's not motivation to keep it up, then I don't know what is!

I'm glad you found my post helpful. I wish you and your H all the best.

DNM, I also read your other post about when to stop discussing the A, if it is, as Dr. H puts it, an "enemy to good conversation."

I suppose I feel that since I lied to him for so long, that if he needs to discuss the A then I owe that to him. But I do agree that rational discussion, like DH and I had last night, is a far, far different cry than the text he sent me last week.

When I got home yesterday I asked him if he'd like to talk after the girls went to bed, that if he had questions about the poly or anything else that we could spend some time talking. I felt like it went well, he asked why I went with those particular questions and what I felt like they covered. He still wished that the question was asked regarding if OM had traveled on any of my out of town trips. Granted, an important issue, but it would be likely that if he had traveled w/me, I would not have passed the question on the # of times being no more than 2, since sex was defined as, well, anything sexual.


I know it's not rational. I honestly told him about it last night while we talked. I think it's not so much the fear of him leaving, it's the "not worth it" part. I asked him if he knew what he wanted to do, and he said no. That it still changes moment to moment. One moment he's all in, thinking yes, definitely, this is what I want, and the next he's done and can't get beyond it. He says the poly helped, probably more than he's letting me know or more than I realize, but that it is not all of it - that what devastates him is the totality of it, not just the acts but the lies and betrayal.



You're right. I admitted as much to him last night, that I know I am not being completely honest about how I am feeling and what I need with him now. And that's something I need to work on. As JL said, I've definitely got trust issues right now. And it's not just with DH - part of the problem is that I no longer trust myself. I've lost a lot of confidence in myself because of what I did, and I am working to bring that back.

WPG, if you are serious about R do yourself a favor and ignore this fogbabble.

Good job on getting the poly done. JL's posts are right one. Take care.

I don't know about feeling more free and open. I mean, I can agree on one hand that I didn't care what OM thought, but then again I was only presenting a part of myself. I wasn't honest with OM either about myself or about the things about him that bothered me. The sex with OM wasn't anything unusual or "different" - I've done far more with DH, both pre-A but especially after the A, as we got very adventurous after D-Day #1 and before D-Day #2.

The only way I know to describe it was looking back, I was not being "myself." It was more like I was being that girl in HS and in college who just wanted to do what the guy of the moment wanted her to do, and did it only because I wanted approval. I couldn't see this at the time - the only "clue" I had was a feeling of not being comfortable in my own skin when I was with OM - this, my mind/body's way of screaming "Hey dummy! This is wrong!!!" I unfortunately disregarded in favor of the "high" I got from the attention.

Yes, the attention OM paid me was a thrill - the texts, the emails, the flattering words. But the sex in and of itself was unfulfilling. I was rarely honest or fulfilled with any of those previous guys that I put out for, because I felt that if I was, and told them "hey, that just didn't do it for me, do this instead," that the approval would stop.

But I can see that I carry some of the same attitudes into my M - it all goes back to fear. I know that I need to work on being more honest with DH about the state of my emotions NOW. I think our talk last night helped. I know that I feel better now after honestly telling him how taking the poly made me feel and how I'm constantly afraid of doing or saying the wrong thing to him, and I told him that I'd much rather he straight-up tell me when he's at those low points instead of retreating, that I want to help him heal and I want to know what he needs. And too, that both of us need healing. I think the fact that there are things I need to heal from too is something that I've tried not to express to him for fear of hurting or discouraging him even more. And HHH is correct, THAT is a DJ.

Jim,
Thanks for your questions. I actually think Head Held High answered it quite well in his next post. It is all about the DJ's. I could "sense" when my DH was disappointed or unhappy with SF. Most of all it, I'm learning now was a DJ on my part. Some of it was self esteem issues and some of it was the information my DH gave me through his verbalizations about me and others.

He often commented on women's attractiveness using strong terminology. I was worried about how I looked, smelled, performed etc. He did view porn and began making suggestions on how to imporove our sex life.

Before listening and talking to others here, I thought that I was a prude or a whiner for not wanting to participate in some of the things he was suggesting. I never trusted my gut instinct. I read forums and spoke to friends who woudn't perform certain sexual acts and would pride myself on not being like that.

Of course I cared what OM thought but not in the way I did with DH. I didn't have to hear his sighs of disappointment and disgust. Because I wasn't around him a lot, I didn't know if he ogled other women and wished that I could be like them so I could "suspend disbelief". Also the OM was not "good with the women" or so he said, so I guess I thought I was the best he could get.

I think I have always felt my DH married me because he didn't think he could do any better. He consistently chose IB over time with me and complained about all my faults.

It turns out that he has been depressed for a long time. When we discuss this, he says he thinks he was always looking for a bigger "thrill" to get him to feel. He does not appear to have the same hang ups as he had in the past although I am still wary of his scruntiny.

On my part, I am trying to stop my DJ's. I have told him that we need to openingly discuss what makes him happy in bed and how we can best achieve that without making me miserable. He still ties a lot of his attitude into whether I "finish" or not. This still does impose pressure on me. I resist the urge to "fake it" and keep the consistent message that I am enjoying myself immensely but biologically don't always have the same results. I am trying to be freer but like WPG, I worry still about how he perceives my actions and that is still a problem.

I hope I am doing this right....not to TJ but any advice would be greatly appreciated.

WPG, I relate a lot to your situation. I have posted to your husband from my perspective and hope he doesn't lose hope.