Went a little outside normal forum etiquette. So, I'll start again:

*big breath* this is going to be a monster.

First post. I'm used to posting, I'm a forum junkie.

I am 32 years old with three children, and we have just passed our 11th wedding anniversary. It was the hardest day of my life...

My wife and I met at the end of our junior year of high school. For me, it was pretty much love at first sight. Something about her drew me to her like nothing I had ever experienced in my young life at that time. I was 17, and she was 16 and had been involved in a horrible situation with a 24 year-old when we met.

We dated for a short while, before my total adoration of her frightened her and she turned me away. Summer passed, and a new school year had began. I did everything I could to ignore her and erase her existence from my memory. She watched me from afar, and resolved to get me back.

We started dating again in November. In January, we celebrated her 18th birthday. My in-laws... well, they were overly liberal, involved in drugs and drinking, and there was a lot of liquor at the birthday party. We both got very intoxicated. Her ex, the aforementioned 24 year-old showed up and her, I, and her brother took off with him, went for a drive, then ended up back at her house. Her mother was at the house the party was at. I passed out. Her ex took her in the other room and took advantage of her in her intoxicated state.

It was painful, but our relationship was new, we were young, and we were both drunk out of our minds. She told me about it, and I told her I could move past it. It wasn't easy, but I did.

A few months later, she was pregnant with our first daughter. She was born November of that year when I had just turned 19, and she was 18.

She moved in with me, and I got a job at a grocery store. I told her at that time that I didn't think that just because we had a child together we should get married, though I did love her completely even then.

I was promoted to checker within a few months, a job which payed well. A little more than 2 years later, she was pregnant again, and we decided to marry. We married September 25th, 1999 - the day after my 21st birthday. To this day it was the happiest day of my life. I was so overtaken with emotion, I could hardly speak my vows.

After our second daughter was born, my wife started becoming a little withdrawn. She was now working full time, and we had two small children, so I understood. She was now not just wife, but a working woman, and a mother. We were doing well, we always had fun and talked, but she was withdrawn with sex and basic affection.

After our second daughter, she also went on Depo for birth control. This was another thing that both she and I had attributed to her withdrawal. She was on Depo for 7 years. During that time, as she withdrew I would fight and pull her out of the murk.

In 2004, we agreed that I should go back to school, and I started back to college while working full time. Going to College is a fairly daunting task, working full time makes it harder, and fighting to keep a marriage happy on top of it makes it all simply exhausting.

In 2006, we decided to have one last child. We always stated we didn't want to have any more after we were 30. Our youngest of three daughters was born in December of 2007.

We now had three children, I was still chipping away at school, and we were both working full time. It was a recipe for disaster.

The weight and stress of school, work, three children, and fighting through my own unmet needs while trying to meet the needs of my wife eventually collapsed on me.

I was not performing well at work and was on the verge of being fired, and I failed all of my classes. I was in a severe depression. School was my ticket for an easier life for myself and my family, so I quit my job. But I had also given up on much more. I no longer had enough "gas" to keep our relationship alive on my own. When I would try to talk to her about things, she started reacting with statements like "Are you in a depression again?"

I was physically, emotionally, and mentally drained. I was suspended from school for a year due to my grades, and I had to get a new job. I spent a month mostly in bed just trying to get my head back up.

I started a new job at minimum wage, and in a few months was working graveyard shift full time. I had worked graveyard on and off for the 10 years I had been at the grocery store, so it wasn't an issue at first. In the fall, I started back to school. In March of 2009, my wife and I took a trip to Las Vegas for a week for our 10th anniversary.

We reconnected very well on that trip. I always felt that we loved each other very much, even though she was not very effective at showing me affection. I had a spark of hope because of that trip.

Back home, things went back to normal, but I still had that hope. In December, I finished my associate's degree.

Then, horror. In early February, we went to a party for my brother-in-law's 50th birthday. My wife and I were drinking. There was a little spat - I told her that I loved her so much that sometimes it hurt. She didn't understand how that works, and I asked her how she thought it could be, she replied "I know that I can be very cold to you."

My wife is a very beautiful woman, and a beautiful person, and has always enjoyed someone flirting with her. I asked her if my adoration was enough, and she stated flatly "No."

At the end of the night, we had an argument, and I heard things no person wants to hear; "I think we married too young, I think we are just together because of the kids." She also brought up male friends she had before we got together (whom she had physical involvement with) and said she felt like I didn't let her have friends.

I was broken. That morning, I tried to examine anything and everything that I was failing to do as a husband and father. That day, I began to change it all. I also started applying to Nursing programs to finish school.

She was shut off. The only time I got any type of emotional reaction from her at all is when I asked her if I should leave.

Two weeks in, she was still shut down and unresponsive. She had even stayed the night with a friend from work to get away. She told me not to call or text, and she wanted me to just let her miss me. She called and texted me some that night, but then left me cold suddenly. One night, I grabbed her phone and looked at her texts to see if she had said anything to anyone. I simply believed our marriage was over and just needed proof.

I saw one text about something possibly happening the night she stayed at her friend's, and a vehement denial.I also noticed a short and simple text, nothing crazy, just something about music. Then curiosity hit me. I got on the computer, and checked the phone records. I had no idea you could see text records.

I took her phone, and put names to numbers. I noticed one name, the name of one of her coworkers popped up constantly. The night she stayed at her friends, it went until 5AM, and picked up again at 9AM.

I confronted her about the texting, I asked her if she had been texting someone a lot, and spending a lot of work time with them. She knew she was caught for that, and didn't deny it. The next night, when I got home from work, I checked her phone again. I saw a text to her sister about me confronting her, and that while I couldn't see what was in the texts, she was "still busted."

I confronted her again. She admitted that they had kissed. She said he tried to kiss her, and she stopped him. But then she followed him later and kissed him.

After this admission, she finally became responsive. Things from her side turned around totally. I was hurt, but I tried to put my best foot forward as much as I could. But I knew it couldn't have just been kissing...

For months I asked if anything else had happened, and she denied it. I was reading anything and everything I could, trying to find help, trying to find answers. I skimmed over MB a few times.

Somehow I knew that if the line had been crossed, it was more than just a kiss. Finally, at the end of July, I somehow found the loose brick in the wall she had built. We were texting back and forth, and I asked her what she needed from me to be happy, she told me "just you," my reply was honestly and faithfulness.

The next day at work, by her account, she was like a zombie. It was time to face up. When I picked her up, she looked exhausted. Then, when we got home, I heard the dreaded words "We need to talk." She finally admitted that they had slept together during lunch breaks at work, though she first made me promise that I wouldn't leave her.

I don't know if it was shock, I don't know if it was because somehow I KNEW something had to have happened, I don't know if my care and love for her overtook everything else at first, but for the first few weeks all I could do was to reassure her, and make sure she was OK.

Then, it finally hit me. Pain, anger, sadness. Through everything my wife had been my rock, even when she wasn't.

When I shut down, there was no longer anyone fighting for our marriage. She had never done it, and didn't know how. She had never had to try for my attention, and didn't know how to show me affection.

A 24 year-old at work started flirting with her, and at the beginning this year started pushing harder and harder, and she went right along with it.

She tells me she feels like she had lost me, and for the most part, she is right. I had fought for so long, that in my mind and heart, I had given up. I stopped fighting, I stopped talking, I stopped trying. When I stopped fighting for my own needs, I stopped meeting hers.

At this point, I don't even know where I'm going any more, but it feels good to get this out SOMEWHERE. Some of our family know just a part of the story, but I haven't really had anywhere to turn with all of this but to her.

Thankfully, he is gone. However, his sister still works with my wife, and my wife's place of work now just serves as a reminder to me.

I am in school, and doing the best I can despite dealing with this at the same time, which makes concentrating very difficult.

I'm 3 months in to knowing the truth, and for the most part I have more good days than bad. My wife is a different person than she has been in a long time.

But, I find myself feeling guilty. I feel guilty because I hurt, because I'm angry. Even on good days, sometimes there is this low hum of sickness in my heart. It's like having a ring in your ear. And sometimes it just builds until it overwhelms me.

I have a relationship many people would envy, but what it took, what it has cost to get here is a price I wish I never had to pay...

So.... what is your question?

You know, I wish I had a question. I really do.

For the most part, I think I just needed to lay things out on the table.

For the most part, the whole thing kind of came off as "ideal."

He moved out of state to go to school in March, and there is no contact. So that part was kind of done for me.

FWS and I have worked through a the questionnaires and read a lot from this site.

The main thing I deal with is hurt. Hurt and anger. Most of the time I can be happy and move forward, at others, it bubbles up and I am guilty of LB's.

Not so much a question, but just a chance to be heard by people who know and understand. People who don't have a direct investment but can be supportive. It's the one thing that I am lacking.

HHH,

He moved out of state to go to school in March, and there is no contact. So that part was kind of done for me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like your wife has not expressed remorse for what she did and felt justified in having her affairs. Does your wife also know that just talking / emailing, these OM and other ex's is bad, very bad, for her marriage and children?

Am I correct there have been 3 OM, starting with the 24 year old who committed statutory rape.

The main thing I deal with is hurt. Hurt and anger. Most of the time I can be happy and move forward, at others, it bubbles up and I am guilty of LB's.

Possibly because you sense that your wife has hid much more from you?

God Bless
Gamma

My wife has expressed remorse, when she finally told the whole truth. There was no remorse from the discovery of the relationship until the revelation of the extent. Maybe that is what stunted me.

So, yes, I probably feel that more has been hidden from me.

There were only two OM - a one night stand at her 18th birthday, and the most recent which was in total maybe a month, month and a half.

I feel bad right now because I see her remorse... but I can't feel it. I can see her pain and her shame, but it's like my heart or my head won't accept it. It just bounces off me.

I've read over the "forgive & forget" columns here, and I'm still just stuck. I want to forgive her, but I don't even know what that means right now.

You can only forgive her if she offers just compensation (you've probably already read this, but it's worth re-reading):

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html


Start living the Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Radical Honesty today, and eventually forgiveness will be hers. But she's the one who creates that forgiveness by how she acts and compensates you. You can't forgive her even if you try. She must gain forgiveness herself. It's not that she's "earning" it... you're simply incapable of forgiveness until you know she's doing everything she can to repair what she broke, and she does that over a period of time sufficient to repair her depleted balance in your Love Bank.

Yeah. We have read through a lot of the stuff on this site together.

I started printing them out, underlining or highlighting parts that stuck out or I felt really applied to us, and then giving it to her to read.

We would then discuss it, with her telling me what parts she really felt important.

We have done the PHQ, the LBQ, the ENQ, and all the articles we have read and discussed have been put together in a binder.

Going over SH's articles, some things are so true, and some are strange.

The only reason it wasn't me who had an affair, is because I knew fully well I was capable of it. I had faced the temptation before.

I went through a period of about 6 years without my needs being met before I finally gave up on meeting hers. The only thing she knows about why she couldn't meet my needs, is she feels she put everything else in life before me.

The PJA and PRH are in our binder as well. Since instituting these things, I have told her about things from my childhood that NOBODY has ever known.

The whole process is startling, and at times amusing. One night, we lay in bed and told each other our whole life stories. Not that we didn't know them, not that we hadn't told each other the same stories over and over and over through the years, but it was like we were beginning again.

I am thankful for that. Sometimes I wish that it could be just that easy. Just toss away the old and start over.

It's just that there are too many good memories to do that.

I don't know how we got where we ended up. I must not have known how to communicate correctly, and she feels she didn't know how to communicate at all. She feels she didn't know how to meet my needs, either.

By the time she was ready to fight, I was already in a state of withdrawal. We went over the stages of marriage again last night to confirm it.

It was pretty much on-the-mark. When she finally tried to meet my needs, I was unreceptive. In fact, I was so closed off, I can hardly recall when she tried.

As a note: NC was partially built-in to the A. The OW was in his last months working there when it occurred. He left March 13, 2010 for another state.

Also; I hunted down his 21-year-old GF on Myspace and sent her a message explaining the A and some details. This lead to some exposure when the OM's sister, who works with my wife, was being questioned to validate my claim.

OM's GF wanted my FWW to call her to confirm, but we resisted that. I told her that it was now up to OM to be truthful with her, and told her that she could work through it if he could learn to be honest. I then cut off communication, and deleted my W and I's myspace pages.

My W didn't cut off complete contact at first, the addiction and denial made her mind think that if she could change the idea to a "friendship," it would invalidate the A. It was her thinking then, though she now knows better.

I was going to just let things die naturally, and wait till he left, but a few weeks before it happened I popped.

I told her that if she didn't cut contact to an absolute minimum (only what was required to carry out work tasks) that I was going to walk.

Up until that time, her mindset resisted cutting him out. In my mind, at that time, cutting him out BEFORE he left on his own was a sign of respect to me, and to our marriage.

I even saw a few texts where she complained about my insisting on cutting him out to a friend. Fortunately, the friend has a good head on her shoulders and told her that what I was asking was the right thing to do.

More later, gotta get off to Nursing lab. Potluck today and I made enchiladas!

Woooo!

What things seem strange to you?


Same situation we were in. I knew I was entirely capable of falling in love with another woman, and was extremely careful with how I managed my friendships as a result. My wife didn't know that she was. In fact, on D-Day, she said "I never thought that I would be the one to ruin a perfectly good marriage". We both know better now.

Focus on what you have now, today, and what you'll have in the future. Recovering from an affair requires a now-centered and future-centered relationship. If you start focusing on the past, you'll never get past it because you can't change it.


But has she done the same for you? That's what's needed for just compensation: it has to go both ways. She needs to be completely honest about who, when, what, where, and how as it relates to the affair. It will be difficult for her to do, but worth it.

Questions "why" it happened are really easy for you both to answer without disrespectful judgments. Think of the affair in terms of exclusive need-meeting, Love Bank balances, and Contrast Effect (what one partner experiences when they compare their spouse to something else, like a lover or pornography). "Why" it happened is contained in that framework very well.


It's not a failure of communication, though. It's a failure to meet one another's needs and refrain from doing things that make one another unhappy. Communication is just one of those.

However, knowing how to communicate your needs is very important. Here are some tricks we use.

"I love it when" statements to remind our spouse what we really like and what deposits lots of Love Units.

"I'd love it if" statements to remind our spouse of a Love Buster they've just engaged in.

"I'd like to negotiate about this" or "Let's brainstorm about this" when we're not enthusiastic about something your spouse has suggested. And occasional "we're brainstorming here" reminders if a spouse starts shooting down ideas, rather than doing it the right way: identifying the ideas you like, not focusing on the ones you don't.



Have you guys bought any of the books yet?

I'd strongly, strongly recommend purchasing a copy of "Surviving An Affair" by Dr. Willard Harley and Jennifer Harley Chalmers. Read it aloud together. Worth its weight in gold -- literally -- to a marriage recovering from an affair. It explains why they happen, how they happen, how they end, how they SHOULD end, and is an excellent roadmap for how to recover.

I think you would of better served if you had let WW have a one time phone call with the BGF. She needed more proof. You denied her that proof. This could of been done with NC with the OM. You can not count on the OMS to not lie for her brother.

Thanks for the responses all.

The situation with the OMGF is pretty contorted. The OMS is buying her brother's denial due to the fact that they are a pretty dysfunctional family.

The lie is that my WW is only lying to me about having a PA to "get a reaction out of me."

The OMGF is a 22 year old. We avoided contact because we sensed it would have been nothing but a name-calling match, and immature games which we didn't want involvement in. Not to mention my timing with doing this was kind of a setback, as I didn't go for contact until a month after D-Day. She is pregnant, as well.

We have discussed contrast effect somewhat. This year she spent new year's eve without me, as I had to work. We discussed how the contrast effect works, and agreed that nothing like this will go on going forward from here.

I have pretty much every detail I can get, or care to have about the PA, and we have dissected what happened to our relationship to make her vulnerable, and the behaviors she had that made her vulnerable.

She was the victim of a philanderer, however, it was her choices and actions that allowed it to happen. In fact, for her part once the door was open she welcomed it.

Reading through items on this site, we discovered exactly how she opened that door, the first fatal mistake: she told him she was thinking about him. That was all the excuse he needed, and then he was on her full bore.

It seems to me that, typically, women intuitively understand contrast effect much better than men do. They sense it more the older they get because they understand how important Physical Appearance is to most men. That's why pornography is so offensive to most women. It's two of a man's typical most important needs -- physical appearance plus sexual fulfillment -- and someone other than them is fulfilling those needs. And women can't help but know that they suffer in comparison to that fantasy.

To many women, indulgence in pornography by their husbands is nearly as destructive as adultery because of the contrast effect.

It's at work any time you're comparing your spouse to a member of the opposite sex. And unfortunately, it deducts Love Units from your spouse's account in your heart without their knowledge or consent. That's why so many waywards give the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech: Contrast Effect has lowered the Love Bank balance of their spouse to a "caring" type of love, rather than a romantic type of love. In contrast to the balance their lover holds, it doesn't feel like love with the spouse anymore.


It's convenient to paint our wives as the victims of the men manipulating them. In fact, I often thought it was only because the OM was so incompetent at seduction that he never "sealed the deal" with my wife. But it's important for me to remember she willingly went along with it, and if circumstances were the same, it would happen all over again. That's why extraordinary precautions are so important: so that circumstances can never be the same again.

Totally agree.

She was vulnerable because I was no longer meeting her needs. I wasn't willing to meet her needs because she had not met mine for so long that I was in withdrawal. I no longer tried to meet her needs, and no longer allowed her to meet mine.

In our situation, the OM was around for about 7 months before anyone.

Tumbler one in the lock was turned because he was always there at work with her. They took lunches and breaks together. I was working nights, gone when she was sleeping and asleep when she got home.

Tumbler two was turned in January, when he got her cell phone number for work related communication, and then proceeded to turn it into other conversation.

Tumbler number three was turned shortly after that, when she let him know that he was "in her head." He had his opening, and began pushing boundaries, and she did not defend those boundaries.

Now, that could be enough, but for me it gets worse. His first truly physical move was to try to kiss her. She deflected that advance. And then she was the one advancing.

He then started planting the idea of sex, had a location and a time. She fought it in word only. He took her to the location, and while she verbally denied that she would sleep with him, she went in anyway to kiss him.

After the first time, there was no fight. Every time she worked with him after that, they spent their lunches having sex. 30 minute lunch, 10-15 minutes travel time, time to grab something to eat, eat it, and smoke a cigarette before returning to work.

I have been crushed for 5 minute quickies.

What I'm told was the drive was "a high, a rush." What I'm told is that there was no drive to "be with him" or no actual emotional attachment, but an infatuation.

I understand that the pull was that he was meeting needs that I was not. But intellect and emotion are bad flat mates.

Yup.

So, I'm dumping a lot of brain trash here.

I encountered in my reading someone with *gasp* more similarities.


The final straw for me, the last EN that ended up being LB'd instead of met, was admiration. AFF and SF were always in a swinging limbo before that.

I had been LB'd to death by IB/AH for a long time before I caved. I was second choice long before there was any OM. Television stole my wife. Whatever. I didn't do much better.

Always been a gamer. It filled my time while she watched late afternoon TV. It filled my time while she watched reality shows at night. It filled my time until everything else was checked off her list, and I could get some time.

When I lost her admiration, the people I played with took her place. They were always happy to see me on, always looking forward to having me around again. I felt wanted, I felt admired.

She tells me she feels like I had an affair with a game.

I don't argue. No excuse for her, but I see her point.

I shut out all activity outside of the home. I had always went and watched movies with my friend here and there. When I broke, I went nowhere.

I was absorbed with the game, but I also didn't want to leave the house because I didn't wanted to miss those little glimpses, those opportunities. When she called, I wanted to be right here.

She didn't know how to call...

Aaaaaaaaaaaanyway... brain trash out.

My main purpose here is to just get it all out.

I'm too dang analytical, and I turn everything over and examine it, and disassemble it, and see how it works, and think of how and why it works.

It's gears in my head clicking and grinding away. It makes me a good problem solver, it will work well when I get my license. In regular life, however it's a curse.


In all honesty, things are going good. I got started here because I had no outlet. The roller coaster wears me out, and I can't imagine what it does to her.

It just seems like she's so much better than me at looking forward and focusing on being happy. Maybe that's her side of the coin. I don't know. I admire it and resent it in the same breath.

I have asked her to admit the A to our respective parents. For me, it feels like finally letting that cat out of the bag is important to claiming full responsibility.

I am worried about telling my dad, though. I am the youngest of 4, and all 3 of my other siblings have been through divorce. Not to mention that my parents are divorced.

Quote for the day; "Depression isn't a sign of weakness, it's a sign that you've been strong for too long."

H3 - are you still gaming? Is she still watching TV?

Are you getting your 20+ hours of time together meeting the 4 intimate ENs: Aff, Convo, SF, and RC?

It sounds like you developed separate recreational activities that created two parallel but diverging independent lives. In order to prevent that happening, you have to develop common interests and activities that bring you two together.

Have you two done the Recreational Enjoyment Inventory?

Sweet! Thanks for the link! We haven't done that one yet.

Nope. I'm not gaming any more. I quit outright as soon as we had our first argument, before I knew about anything more.

She still watches TV, but at this time it's usually only if I'm busy doing my homework for school.

We have a lot of UA - every day when she gets home from work, or I get home from school, we spend an hour or two in our bedroom away from the kids, lying there and talking.

RC is a little tough due to my going to school and her work, but we do what we can. We both love to watch movies, and have netflix, so we watch a movie here and there. Last week we did the regional fair - we went to a concert (Collective Soul, yay!) for a bit, and then walked around for a while.

Aff - I was great at this until I shut down, but she had some work to do. She told me about this early on, before I started REALLY reading on MB, and I wrote her a letter containing things she could do to show me affection. She's become pretty adept here - it's now second nature instead of effort.

SF - most of the time there is no problem here. I had trouble having it met before because I felt a lack of connection and/or desire from her (which in my mind means it probably wasn't met for her). It was always spotty before; most of the time great, but sometimes she was so disconnected it just made me feel horrible, selfish, and pathetic. Now it's AMAZING, and sometimes it's like we are 17 all over again... 2, 3 times a day... I don't know how I keep up.

This could be something known as Hysterical Bonding - you two attempting to reconnect after the trauma of the affair. Don't be surprised if it tapers off some but don't let it disappear. Ensure that it is given priority, especially as it is probably a high need of yours.

Women need two things to desire sex: an intimate connection with their partner, and the assurance they will enjoy themselves. Meeting her ENs creates the connection and I'm sure you can figure out how to get her to enjoy herself .

Good call. I am sometimes amazed my wife stayed with me during my online gaming fascination (addiction? fetish? whatever?). The trouble with them, from my point of view, is that your heart doesn't know the difference between a virtual life-saving experience and a real one. People deposit love units all the same. And that's what, I think, those who go overboard in MMORPGs are really experiencing: they are getting their emotional needs met by strangers and it's quite a rush.



Be aware that this is a symptom of "hysterical bonding" most of us experience shortly after an affair ends. It usually lasts 3-9 months. It's a good thing, but there will probably come a day you won't feel like jumping each other all the time as your comfort level with one another settles in again. Keep the love bank balances high and you'll still have sex regularly -- it's my top EN, and that of many men, too -- but probably at reduced frequency compared to the pace you're keeping during Hysterical Bonding.

Thanks for taking the wind out of my sails, guys!

No, just kidding. I was aware of this, though I kind of put things into a different context. I kind of looked at it like falling all over again, and that leading to the insatiable drive.

I know it will wear off eventually. However, even at the worst, quantity wasn't the issue. Physically, quality wasn't the issue. I haven't quite discovered what the initial issue with her was, other than her focus just wasn't on us. I know what it was over the past 2 years.

My issue was the willingness vs desire - and what seemed to me a lack of desire causing that need to not be met.

Anyway, while I was reading and typing this up, I was talking to her on the phone. Just talking about how her day is going so far, coming up with a plan to address her not feeling well.

She informed me that there WILL BE some SF need meeting tonight. I had to giggle. She's been working early and not feeling well. I'm so used to the any and every excuse to not have that need met, that I think there is a part of me that denies that she needs it met, too. Or that she is overextending to meet my need.

I should be thankful that she is willing to try. I guess I need to explain to her that when she says "Even if I just have to lay there" detaches the F. No. I don't want you to just lay there.

It has been 2 days, which for the past 7 months is about the longest stretch it ever gets to before she intervenes. I admit, I purposely let it go sometimes. Part of my need is for her to initiate, or to voice the desire.

"People deposit love units all the same. And that's what, I think, those who go overboard in MMORPGs are really experiencing: they are getting their emotional needs met by strangers and it's quite a rush."

I agree vehemently. It's exactly what it was. I needed to feel wanted and admired, and she quit doing that for me. My guildmates, well they would cheer for my appearance.

She told me how it would hurt that I would wake up early sometimes to play the game, but I didn't wake up early for her. And she's right. I was in withdrawal, she had somehow bounced out into conflict, and didn't know what to do, she just knew that she ranked below a computer game.

Meh.

The contrast, however, is this; playing games wasn't an IB/AH of mine, for her, until I gave it all my time. She doesn't care if I play a game here or there. I don't have interest in it right now, because I have too many other interests. My marriage, my kids, my education. No time for games.

I, however, would care very much if she started hanging out with someone new, or texting someone new.

In that respect, where I disappeared to and where she disappeared to are VERY different.

Went and had lunch with her on her break at work. It's been a pretty steady habit since... oh, some time in March.

I tried starting it earlier, but got blocked on it one day, because it was a day that OM worked. I knew something was up, but at the time didn't quite call it out.

Again, meh.

Got an appointment and a band concert for DD12 tonight. Then DW is requesting a back rub.

Kinda feel like a whiner. I look at all the time, and trouble, and pain people face here. They keep their heads up and keep pushing.

Here I am b****ing and moaning about 1 PA that lasted 3-4 weeks, tops. I have a wife that is totally on board to setting it right.

/facepalm

It's what we're here for

Women, men, sex, and desire is such a touchy subject. It is so laced with expectation and emotion and projection that it's no wonder it can be such a land mine.


You want her to desire you sexually, in a physical way. It is what creates the feelings of acceptance and satisfaction. You want her to WANT it the way you WANT it, but women and men are very different.

Sometimes, I don't feel a physical urge to have sex. I feel an emotional desire to connect with my husband but no physical urge. This is very much connected to hormones for me. I would offer to please my husband because I loved him and wanted to demonstrate that love, but physically I didn't desire pleasure for myself. It had nothing to do with HIS actions, but rather my hormones.

I know many men would be turned off at the thought of receiving pleasure while their wife didn't. The just 'laying there' is a turn off. I do believe that if it ALWAYS was her 'just laying there' then there would be no Fulfillment but sometimes I just don't have the energy to do much more. But I still want to demonstrate love and acceptance to my husband.

Women don't think of sex in the same way men do. They don't see it the same way and it doesn't mean the same thing to them. It doesn't make one view or the other good or bad. They are just different, and that is ok.

I would say that if your wife choses to give you the gift of pleasure, accept it for what it is: an act of love to demonstrate care. If you have an open, loving, intimate relationship, her sexual drive will urge her to come to you when SHE wants it. This will be on her body's timetable, not yours. You may not think it 'enough' but to her it is. If in between those times she choses to have SF with you and maybe she isn't as 'in to it' as you want her to be - that is a Disrespectful Judgement.

Those in between times where her drive isn't raging and she has SF with you, see it for the gift of love it is.

If the 'just laying there' is bothersome, you can negotiate things she can do that further communicate her love. Maybe it's dirty talk, or touching you in a certain way, maybe it is making eye contact.

Negotiate specific things that will make you feel loved so that the experience CAN be enjoyable for you.

But to state that THIS is what her desire should look like if she 'really' needs this is a DJ.



You don't know what she thinks or feels about it. If there are certain things you would like, ask for them. If you want to know how she feels about SF, ASK her how she feels rather than interpreting her motivation.

For me, I LOVE to pleasure my husband, even if I don't get anything in return. He used to feel bad until I was able to adequately communicate the emotional pleasure I received which, to me, was better than the physical pleasure.

If my husband wants SF, all he has to do is ask and it is available to him, because he keeps my love bank so full, any time he needs an EN met I WANT to meet it, even though I may not have a physical desire for it, myself. If that makes sense. I love that I can meet this need for him without feeling the pressure of having to get myself turned on. When I want SF met, all I have to do is ask...or throw him on the bed . It relieves SO much pressure to not constantly have to 'perform' to a preconceived notion of what my desire for him should look like. Because we've been able to talk openly and honestly, I know what things to do to visibly demonstrate my enjoyment to him.

Open, honest communication without DJs is SO essential to a happy sex life. It will be essential to you two once the Hysterical Bonding wears off. Using the full MB system will strengthen the foundation of your marriage so you CAN have the conversation you need about it.

Thanks, V.

Funny thing, when I had lunch with her this afternoon, we went over this.

We talked about what is needed for SF for each of us, and the conversation goes pretty much along everything you said.

On this issue, score yourself one expert point. :p

Even more so, the emotional connection you mention; was something we lost, was something the PA never had, and is something that is stronger now than it has been since... well, ever, I guess.

On loving to pleasure your partner; same here. For some reason, I have just had a harder time accepting the same in return. That is something to put on my list and work on.

Ordered SAA and HNHNfP today.

Not that things aren't going great, I just don't want them to ever not be going great... ever again.

For some people it is so easy to serve others and so difficult to accept service, and I don't mean just sexually . ALLOW your wife the opportunity to Give, the Giver LOVES to make other people happy. It creates a feeling of satisfaction.



Attaboy!

The wonderful thing about MB is it COMPLETELY changes your perception and expectation for marriage. Because you KNOW passionate, giddy, head over heels love can be sustained indefinitely, you don't want to settle for less. MB gives you the tools and teaches you the skills to maintain that love. It's wonderful and exciting...and I think I need to go hug my husband

Just read over your story, V.

I wish I had done what you did at the same stage. And you are right that by getting into this you will be avoiding the same mistakes you are reading about.

I wouldn't ever have explained our marriage in a negative light, and neither can my DW.

However, it was far from sunny.

Even so, your input today has been more than welcome, and has given me a better perspective to take moving forward.

So, we took DD12 to get her contacts, came home and worked on some RH issues digging at me, and went to DD12's band concert.

Came home, ate dinner and watched a TV show together we have a mutual interest in.

She started back to work after a week of vacation.

The plan was to take a nice hot bubble bath together, and I was going to give her a full body massage.

She was prepping the bed for after bath, and I was prepping the bath.. and then BAM. Triggered. Those quick little images and flashes.

I pushed through, though. Had our bath, caressed and chatted.

After bath I gave her a full body massage and lotioned her.

*please note - from here on may be TMI for some, but I have to share because of the elevation it gave me*


DW shared with me that while thinking about me and a little SF while she was at work, she experienced a spontaneous O. Just from the thought of me and my touch.

Talk about an ego boost!


Told her about my triggering, and she asked what I did to get through it. I just lived in the moment. After what she told me, it didn't matter anyway.

I've found a lot of times that when I'm triggering, burying myself in service to my spouse gets me through it. It's an effective technique, and stops the triggering.

Some times, some days, I wonder if my thread should be under recovery or surviving. I wonder if I've got enough of the steps down to consider it "recovery."

Been talking to the wife about jumping into the forums. She's not super computer literate, and had NEVER done a forum, but I think it would be awesome for her, especially since we don't have the resources (schedule/finances) to work in MC right now.

Also kind of wrestling something else. Yes, it's been over for a while, but I think EP are at 99.9% - I feel like I want to go and tell some of FFW's coworkers that if OM happen chance comes back in to the store at any time, for any reason, OM is to be nowhere near my FWW. Current plan is if OM happens to pop up (OM is in another state, but OMS still works in the store/department) FWW is to leave that area of the building and contact me immediately. I joked in enough time that I can get down there and exact justice.

Part 2: exposure. Yes it's over, but FWW, myself, and OM are the only ones with the whole story. Part of me wants to expose this to critical family members, and that part of me views it as part of compensation.

She has been hesitant on this, and I don't want to break PoJA. I also kind of feel willingness to expose, at this point, is needed for compensation. However, I am frustrated at her reluctance and almost feel like exposing on my own.

People wrestle with this question all the time. "Are we really in recovery?" Typically, these are the signs you're in recovery:
1. The affair is over.
2. Withdrawal -- that is, the symptoms of addiction -- have very much subsided in the wayward spouse. You're not recovering while they're still in withdrawal from the lover. You're just enduring.

THAT is when recovery really starts. Typically withdrawal lasts 3-6 months in the wayward. If it lasts longer than six months, it almost always indicates continued contact on the part of the wayward. If not "active" contact seeing or speaking to the other person, then some secret stash of photos, emails, texts, or something to keep reminding them of the lover they lost.


Just don't make it a demand. You can learn everything you need reading together from Dr. Harley's published works. So can she. It sounds like she's in Intimacy or Conflict most of the time, as are you. That's a position you can work with and salvage your marriage without a counselor.

The purpose of the counselor is to guide you through the motivational swamps, emotional minefields, and creative wilderness of recovery.

1. If one or both of you stumbles into Withdrawal and stays there (motivational swamp), unwilling to work on the marriage, then is the time to call in the big guns.

2. If you keep tripping over issues that cause one or both of you to resort to demands, disrespect, dishonesty, independent behavior, or anger (emotional minefields), a good counselor can help you avoid them.

3. If you just don't know what to do to move forward and feel like you're stuck (creative wilderness), that's when your counselor can help you find solutions and are best used.

My FWW and I just had ONE session with the Harleys to help us overcome a creative wilderness and some emotional minefields. Two hours later, she had us on the right path, and we've managed to make our own way since then. Absolutely worth the $200. I know Jennifer wanted us to have more sessions, but finances interfered in our case, too. I'm sure we'd have recovered more quickly with her help, but we're getting there on our own.


And that's a DJ. You think she needs some educating -- "it would be awesome for her" -- and hope the forum can step in to do it for her. If that's crept into your conversations, no wonder she resists!

Look, those of us who are really computer-savvy and communicate well in writing thrive on forum discussions. Others, like my wife, really prefer telephone or face-to-face contact. Forums just don't do it for them. Don't push. Let her know it's here, and help if she asks, but don't try to force it on her.


How would your wife feel about informing said co-workers of this? Why not give her the choice instead of taking it away?


The purpose of exposure is two-fold:

1. To expose the affair to the light of reality, disrupting the fantasy around it. This usually causes it to wither and die, though rarely causes the lovers to live their affair openly since there's no further point to secrecy.

2. To gain much-needed support for the betrayed spouse.

Now, if the affair is dead, #1 is kind of pointless, and at this point possibly spiteful on your half. The bloom is already off that rose for the lovers, and they've broken up.

#2, though, may still be a need for you. Who are those people who could best protect your marriage from future threats if they knew? Who are those who could best support you as a couple if they knew the truth?

I learned the hard way this year that exposure to the wrong people can create further problems with the marriage down the line. Not nearly as bad as an active affair, but exposing the affair to a relative who thinks you should leave the cheater, then making up with said cheater when they still think you should leave them, really strains the relationship with that person.

Sorry if I've made any mistakes above. It's time for dinner, outtie!

Wow, threads like this just warm my heart. It is so gratifying to read the informed, educated posts of Barnboy, vibrissa and our newcomer, HeadHeldHigh, who have all obviously been studying Marriage Builders. When I was new to Marriage Builders, no one talked about MB! What a wonderful change.

HHH, you are getting wonderful advice here and I would only emphasize Vibrissa's suggestion about the importance of 20+ hours of undivided attention.

Dr Harley flat out says his program does not work without it.

And by undivided attention, he means no tv, no children, no other people. 20+ hours of meeting the top 4 intimate needs is what it will take to restore the love in your marriage.

My H and I actually sit down and schedule this out once a week, writing out the times, dates and activities. That way it is harder to put it off.

The Policy of UA will make the fastest, most impactful love deposits and will make the greatest change in your marriage. When this happens, then the rest of it comes much easier. It is much easier to learn the skill of negotiation [POJA] when you are in love. When you are in love, any sex problems resolve themselves.

If you want the biggest bang for your buck, that is where I would start. You will be surprised to learn how fast you fall in love this way. Check this out: thread about the importance of UA

Yep; that kept me out of here for way too long.

Discussed exposure. We have decided against it.

Her mother is a serial and unrepentant WW, my mother is another unrepentant WW.

We feel that neither of us have positive support within the family, as we are adapting to MB principles.

Kind of sucks.

DW signed up for a forum account, within PoJA, DNM. Actually quite excitedly and went straight to work.

Without positive support sources for either of us, this forum is a gift.

She reads every post in this thread, has read a few others, and has started her own.

Ground rules are that we are not to post in each other's threads.

The experiences and expertise of the people on these boards is worth it's weight in gold.

"Discussed exposure. We have decided against it.

Her mother is a serial and unrepentant WW, my mother is another unrepentant WW.

We feel that neither of us have positive support within the family, as we are adapting to MB principles."

Does the OMW know?

Can/will OM comeback to work at the old location? Also WW can be forced to move there later due to nothing but company reorganization. This is why WW has to find a new company to work for.

Go figure. That's exactly what I was talking about. My mother is a serial and unrepentant WW (married her final affair partner), and that's the one person I wished I'd never exposed to due to the additional raft of difficulties exposure to her brought.

I'm with TheRoad... if there's any chance of WW and OM bumping into one another, you need some sort of extraordinary precaution to prevent that. Not just trying to avoid one another in the workplace... that's a recipe for another affair. The only way I finally felt at all even slightly secure in my relationship was once my wife had changed her phone number, blocked OM from every electronic avenue of contact, and we even briefly considered moving. Threw that last one out because he was in another state and we hate moving, plus FWW thought she'd never given OM her address though, of course, we'd be easy enough to find through state records.

If there's any way OM can encounter your wife, that hole needs to be plugged. Not by co-workers watching out for OM, but by your wife removing herself from the situation where she might encounter OM. The economy is turning up and service and tech jobs are in abundant supply. Construction is still way down, though, as are industries related to construction...

At this time, there are basically 2 holes in NC: where she works is a Grocery store, and is open to the public. While he has moved out-of-state, he still has family here in town.

She won't be transferred unless she asks to be transferred. Actually, once I complete my Nursing license next December, she is going to quit.

The second hole is that OMS works with her.

So, we are exposing OM to his GF. My DW agreed to a phonecall with her, if that is what she feels she needs to acknowledge the truth. I called OMGF first to hash out some ground rules and set a time (tonight; if she curses or starts name calling, the conversation is over).

This is pretty confusing to OMGF. I screwed up, got her interested in the truth, then denied her the confirmation she felt she needs. She wonders why I'm contacting her again.

After the call tonight, our cell #'s are going to be changed.

OMGF must have called OM - he called his sister in his sweat and scramble. He really is a coward, and is doing everything he can to not face his GF with what he is done. I pity her.

OM's sister is NC hole #2, because messages could be passed. However, the relationship between WW and OM's sister is minimal and strained due to my earlier attempt at exposure.

That attempt, OM told his sister that my WW was "lying to get a reaction."

What a chicken turd.

Short update, not good at keeping up my own thread. Silly me.

Exposure to OMGF was a miserable failure, and took an enormous toll on me to do so.

At this point, if she can live with a lying little *explicative deleted* who has no qualms in disrupting a family, good for her. I feel I gave her every opportunity and she chose not to take that.

Things are fairly positive, but I have the weight of recovering my marriage and nursing school on my shoulders. Truth be told, if it came down to it school can wait. It would just be a tremendous financial blow to do so at this time.

I haven't maintained my thread due to no significant new breakthroughs or setbacks. I suppose stability is good for now.

I have thought about hashing the whole thing out here - as I have found the stories and progress of others to be tremendously helpful to my own psyche, and if I can give a contribution that would one day help others, I am more than willing to do so.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand, that pretty much sums it up.

HHH,

Exposure to OMGF was a miserable failure, and took an enormous toll on me to do so.

Possbly not, 3 years down the road when SHE cheats on OM with OMs affair as justification, OM will taste his own medicine.

God Bless
Gamma

Oh, you disrupt my warm and fuzzy thoughts for other people. On the one hand, karma is an... unkind force at times.

On the other, I don't wish it on OMGF. Yet, we lie in the beds we make for ourselves, don't we?

Over a year later, when I trigger, the happy place I go to is imagining 1980s-era Donkey Kong raining fiery barrels down on OM's head, then OM running around in circles on fire until he falls over.

The psyche isn't pretty, but this image helps defuse the triggers and makes me smile. And it's really simple and effective where many other images I attempt to use to blunt the emotional impact of triggers aren't quite as good.

I struggle with whether I should feel vengeful towards the OW, as I really don't want bitterness to taint our future. I think that feeling bitter would make me more likely to have some horrible revenge affair. So I was pleased when I reached the point of being able to write this letter to OW.

The only other communication I�ve had with you so far was to text you from his Blackberry, asking you to please confirm the dates of your affair with my husband. You didn�t reply. I wanted to text again with the single word �Coward�, but I didn�t want to come across as a bunny boiler.

You�re probably not old enough to remember �Fatal Attraction�. You were born while my husband and I were getting to know each other at university in the eighties. I actually genuinely laughed with him about that fact last weekend when we were eating dinner before having a fantastic night in a very posh local hotel.

You see, this letter is to thank you for jumping into bed with my husband of 18 years after your second date with him � in spite, or maybe because, of having a boyfriend yourself. It quickly turned into a full-on affair, with you sleeping together most nights of the weeks when he was working in your city. Does your boyfriend know yet? Poor bloke, working weeknight evenings in the hospitality industry, but without enough drive for you apparently. Perhaps my successful husband looked like a better catch, in spite of the three kids at home?

The only thing is, the affair only made my husband realise how much he loved me. He admitted he was infatuated with you, but it is clear that you could have been anyone. The affair wasn�t about you � it was about us, me and him. We had both neglected our marriage � he for work, me for the children. Our sex life was a disgrace, but what ultimately saved us was a deep affection and respect for each other which had never left us.

Finding out about the affair, even though it had been over for 9 months, was devastating and painful, but not actually difficult as he was very transparent with his passwords. Fortunately we were staying with friends when I found out, so I couldn�t shout or throw things. I cried and vomited, but quietly � and we talked.

Then we talked again, and again, and again. To cut a very long story short, we both believe we have a better marriage now than we have ever had. We talk, laugh and play together � both alone and with the children. Our sex life is awesome and uninhibited. It would seem that I have a lot more confidence in my body than you do in yours � age has some compensation.

Three contradictory things have helped me get to the point of wanting to write this letter to you. Firstly, I did not want to carry bitterness into my new, improved marriage with my husband. Secondly, if I did want vengeance a friend advised me that the best revenge would be a life well lived � wise words indeed. Finally, you told my husband you want to get married and start a family. When I was your age I was doing just that, filled with optimism and hope, never imagining this would happen. You, on the other hand, will always know that the horror of infidelity is a very real possibility. Do I feel sorry for you? Do I hell � karma is my new best friend!

I didn't send this letter as NC is for both of us, as I understand it, but I still feel pleased that I have readched the point where I can look at her like this.

You sir, are a better man than I. My smile comes from the fantasy of walking in to see or pick up the wife, and him coming to visit his sister at work.... oh, please please please please please.

I know it won't happen, though. Guess the last time D-bag lived out of town, he didn't have any more than phone contact with his family for over 5 years.

Well, in (less than) 5 years time, I'll be done with school, and leaving behind the town which I grew up in, which my family lives in, to create a new life, in a new town, with new memories.

In the last text that I sent to the OMGF, I stated something similar.

I'm not sure it's absolutely true, however.

I don't have bitterness toward OM for the affair itself. It was not his obligation to protect my M and family.

However, he is a complete and total scumbag, and his every action is a disrespect to my FWW. The way the A was carried out, and the lies he spread when he faced his own exposure were slimy and disrespectful.

Today that hum of anger is strong. It's been growing the past few days. I need a hobby.

So, the negativity inside finally grew to a crushing proportion.

When it's just that small hum, I can face and carry it pretty well. I can fight it back and go through my day.

Yesterday, this wasn't the case. It grew to a beastly roar, and I couldn't even look at FWW.

Her reaction during these breakdowns... perplexes me. It annoys me, yet I appreciate it. It infuriates me, yet I respect her for it.

When I hit these points, the hurt and anger have built up so much, that I can no longer be outwardly positive until I shut it down. Unfortunately, FWW can read me like a book, and as I start to withdraw, she's on me. She's a soldier. She knows why I'm closing in, and she knows that I'm just ready to pop. And so she grabs her needle...

I fought against letting it out the hardest I ever fought last night. I told her that I refuse to make her cry, that I refuse to be the cause of her pain. She responded that she was already the cause of both of our pain. I still refused to speak my pain and anger. She cried anyway.

I gave in finally. Yes, the weight is off. She knows that I work that way, but I still HATE it. Part of my refusal to let it out is because I know this won't be the last time. Yes, these breakdowns are happening with less frequency, but I still hate them.

Am I failing to be honest by not letting it out?

Anyone have any redirection techniques that have worked for them?

Any recovered waywards who weathered firestorms, did that work for you? For your BS?

It just doesn't seem constructive to me, even if I can see a minuscule benefit.

Wow, you sounds just like my DH! Yes you should let it out. It is so much on her for her to have to delve for it...knowing it will hurt her but wanting to alleviate your pain anyway.

Take it from a WW or FWW (jury is still out on that) I don't want protected, I want honesty and intimacy so I really know where he is at. She wants to make ammends and can't do that if you are protecting her from herself.

I agree with sunny - just let it out. I would rather my BH let his feelings out with me, no matter how much it hurts me or he *thinks* it will hurt me, rather than shutting me out. O&H has to go both ways. None of us are mind readers, regardless of what "label" we wear, BS, WS, former, current, none of the above. And we (FWW) NEED to see the devastation our past behavior, lack of boundaries, and lack of EPs has caused. And, we also need to see where our BH is "at", emotionally speaking. We need feedback on how we're doing at need-meeting, implemeting EPs, you name it. She needs to know where you are at and what you need.

Do your best to avoid lovebusting, but don't build a wall between you and your FWW. Trust me, I'm living on the other side of one of those walls and it is not a good place to be.

You most definitely need to let it out! I struggle with this as well, not wanting to hurt my H, but you know what? Not to be a love buster, but our WS hurt us! This is not a revenge issue, it's being true to your feelings. Isn't that part of being radicaaly honest? Not to hurt her, but to be true to you.

You need to go with your feelings.

Gonna pick on WPG here, but I thank you all for your responses.

LBing is exactly what I am trying to avoid. I just haven't found a way to express or release the negativity without doing so, so I choose to stuff it down, which I know is wrong and doesn't work.

I showed her a journal page that I wrote one day about a month ago trying to stave off a breakdown. To me, it was horrible. She told me how much it sucked to see inside my mind, but when I said it was horrible, she expected to see worse than I had put down.

I could possibly transcribe it to here, don't know what the use would be, though.

She expected to have me call her names, or to use certain words; dirty, slimy, slutty, whore. I do not believe my W, even being a FWW is any of those. She DID allow some scumbag to treat her in that manner, but I don't see her in that way. It is hard for her to not imagine me thinking that way about her, because she feels that way about herself.

I refuse to contribute to that feeling, and I feel that is all I do when I get into these spots. I can't win. I suppose "protecting" her from my pain and anger is a DJ, but no matter how I word or control it, it always feels like an AO/DJ blitz when I let it go.

I have a tidbit caught in my mind with this whole thing, and I suppose I should consider the source.

My brother's first wife had an A, and the situation was similar to my own. The introduction of children knocked him down the priority list and he withdrew. In his case, it was within a year or two after baby. I fought for 7, trying to take his experience and avoid it. I just didn't know the toll it would take on me.

In his case, however, he eventually ended up having an A of his own, carried forth in a horrible manner, and is now married w/ 2 children w/ his AP.

He told me there is an "expiration date" on these breakdowns. In the back of my mind, that expiration date feeds me horror. I fear the day that the "just get over it" mindset overtakes care, and my pain and anger destroy the final thread holding it together.

DoormatNoMore gave me the suggestion on my thread about journaling. My DH was journaling for a while during the early part of recovery. We actually have had some good exchanges via email - I don't know whether he felt a little better about writing things to me rather than saying them face-to-face. Although we haven't even had a good email exchange for nearly 2 months now. Yeah, sure it "sucks" to see inside the mind of the man we betrayed, but that is a consequence of what we, the FWW, did. And I don't think we (FWS) will ever even begin to "get it" until we truly see the depth of the pain we caused our BS. The devastation that I caused my DH overwhelms me at times, as I'm sure it does your FWW. But when he and I aren't communicating, I have no idea where we/he are "at", KWIM?


I know exactly how she feels - I expect not just my DH, but pretty much everybody - to use those words to describe me. And I was called those names, in anger, on DDay #2. I still struggle with not seeing myself that way and not hating myself for what I did. But I have received a lot of wise counsel on this board that beating myself up, hating myself, is completely non-productive - it takes away valuable time and energy that I should be putting into my M.

But that's a completely separate issue of how you respond to her when you feel the need to express what's going on inside you. I know you want to protect her from any more pain - I get it. But when you are protecting her, you're not being O&H. And I didn't think of it before, but perhaps it is a DJ because you are assuming what your FWW can and can't handle.

The regulars can give much better advice than I can - but I know you've weighed in on my thread and H's thread, and you've been very helpful to me and our situations have a lot in common - so just chiming in. Stay strong.

HHH,

This is my first post. I am 35yrs old and my wife and I married very young, she was still in high school, lol. I thought we had made a wonderful life for us, 2 kids DS 8 and DD now 3. In 2007 we had our DD after 11 yrs of marriage. In less than a year (April 08) she meet a guy from church while on a W & W trip. They quickly became friends when they got back. To make a long story short for now, she completely hid the secret part of their friendship. She came out to me on Nov 17th 09. I had no idea! We are trying to recover also. Most everyday I feel as you do even though she is doing all she can to be the wife she should have been.
I fight everyday not to say ugly things to her. I don't want us to be another broken family. It usually takes me a week or so before I have to at least write her a note with the way I feel. I may start my own thread if I can handle the pain of it. I've been lurking for quite a while.

@Blue75 Love to see you on your own thread. Also, making a signature line highlighting where you are in recovery is very useful for others when speaking with you. It helps us know more about your situation.

And of course she hid it from you. Affairs and dishonesty have to go hand-in-hand. It's impossible to have an affair if you are totally honest with your spouse and don't do anything without their enthusiastic agreement! Well, unless for some bizarre reason your spouse WANTED you to have an affair.

If you think of your unfaithful spouse's behavior in terms of Love Bank balances, Exclusive Needs-meeting, the desire to "cake-eat" by deceiving both the betrayed spouse and the affair partner, and Contrast Effect, oftentimes the answers simply fall out on their own. Why did they do this particularly hurtful thing? To throw you off the trail or to gain some additional time with the lover! It's so common that it boils down into elements shared amongst almost all affairs. There was nothing unique or special about the affair. It's the same thing over and over again, affecting over 60% of all marriages.

If you or your spouse never have an affair on one another, you're in the minority!

So when you start your own thread, @Blue75, give us some more details. Have you sent a No-Contact letter to the Other Man yet? What Extraordinary Precautions do you have in place to protect your marriage from recidivism? Is your unfaithful wife being completely honest and transparent with you? Are you spending at least fifteen hours per week alone with your wife filling one another's intimate emotional needs?

Gonna try to keep up on my thread better. While I do enjoy the compliments to my "positivity," I don't want to be a misrepresentation.

So, I suppose it's 8 months in to recovery in total, and 3 months from complete disclosure. Found MB some time this August and started working with the online articles. Stumbled on the forums later, messed up much like 'ol Blue here (YOU'RE MY BOY, BLUE!!!! You're my boy...)

I have found it very nice sharing support and experience with others, as well as receiving it. DoNoMo is my hero.

Sometimes it feels like my LB$ is not in fact static, but more like a revolving credit account. When those interest charges hit FWW's account... OUCH.

It's not easy.

If I have a resentment, it's that it took an A for her to want to fix things. It's like "Hey, I have given you every reason to walk away, but how about you stay and try to make it better?"

Or, as I told her one time "It's like you ripped out my heart, squatted over it, and took a dump. Then you picked it up, handed it back to me, turned around, and asked if you could have it back."

UGH. REALLY?

I didn't want to give it back. She shoplifted it somehow. I think I was sleeping heavily, and she snuck it out from beneath my pillow.

Sometimes I feel like I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop so that I can go. At the same time, I'm leaving that up to her.

Yes, you're going to feel like that for a while! As her Love Bank balance increases again since her intense dishonesty and independent behavior have ceased -- an affair is probably the ultimate example of that toxic combination -- you'll have a day here and a day there that you forget the affair entirely. For me, the first time that happened was August 2-5, 2010. Look at my D-Day below? Yep, nearly a year before I had a single day I didn't think about what she did.

And, of course, trying to remember the days you didn't think about something? That's pretty tough, right?

Anyway, clue in to your feelings. When I'm feeling down, I do a kind of "personal evaluation" to figure out why. Here are the kinds of questions I ask myself:

1. Did I get enough sleep last night? Plan to talk with FWW about it, and discuss my plan to get to bed earlier.

2. Am I coming down with any sort of sickness? Plan to talk to FWW about it if so, and make a plan to handle it together if it gets worse.

3. Has my wife done anything that has made me feel bad in the past day or two? If so, plan some conversation that day to fit in an "I'd love it if" statement, talking about how I feel.

4. How well has she met my most important emotional needs (SF, O&H, RC, Affection, Admiration... but it changes sometimes) in the past few days? Can I name when and how she met those needs very well? Plan to mention how much I admire how she met those needs for me, and ways I'd love it if she met those needs in the future if she didn't quite hit the mark.

5. Have there been any job or other life stresses affecting me? What can I do about them? How can my wife help? When can I plan to talk with her about those stresses and get her help brainstorming solutions together?


Do ya notice the blindingly-obvious common aspect to all of those questions? Yep. My wife has a huge need for Conversation. So much that it's truly, really impossible for me to fill completely. The OM filled it by talking to her non-stop for 2-3 hours per day or more. He was unemployed at the time, and I truly think his return to employment after a leave of absence played a role in my wife realizing her relationship with him was based on a fantasy.

Anyway, I can manage about 2 hours of talking, but we're also meeting my needs during our window of 9-11PM every night and those -- ahem! -- don't always involve talking a lot, you know?

I guess what I'm saying is that if you consider your wife's feelings and include her in every one of your plans, you tend to meet several of her needs in the process. And after a while, it becomes second nature. When you demonstrate this kind of care and protection, you have a leg to stand on when making "I'd love it if" or "I love it when" statements to reinforce the behaviors that make Love Unit deposits in your wife's account in your heart.

And when the balance exceeds the Romantic Love threshold -- it sounds like it peeks above it every so often for you already! -- your Giver kicks in and you temporarily forget your resentment. That's really the key to the whole Harley program. It's Pavlovian. You're re-training one another with positive stimuli and responses, until just the mere presence of your mate provokes a positive response in you.

I have the posts you did on my thread saved already, and the ones you have done recently on balancing the Giver and Taker and how its important to do both when you are in Intimacy as well as Conflict. Now I have to keep this one too!

I really do feel like I am in Marriage Builders 101, great stuff!

The fact of the matter is, I think I even have days where the thought doesn't cross my mind. I'm kind of cloudy on that, but it feels like I have had those days.

That's what makes the days that I feel the anchor even worse.

Anyway, I realized driving home today, that I need some new travel routes.

On the way home, I drove past the location where the defilement of my FWW occurred. The flash in my head was her driving down the road with him, all laughs and smiles, on the way to betray me.

It was like a punch in the gut. I've got kind of a throbbing numb feeling as I type.

I really can't wait to finish school and leave this town behind.

HHH,

I just wrote on another thread about the same thing. Today my family drove down a road I know they drove down together. It ruined the rest of my day.

Re-focused my energy into some sneaky, late afternoon SF.




*Explicative Deleted* you, trigger!

I am having a trigger kind of day too. Glad you handled it well. I find that doing anything...enjoyable...really helps with those bad days! Finding a way not to have to drive by that place would be good too.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I have to drive past the location very often, sometimes two or three times in a day. I then have to continually put brakes on my mind. I wish I could move to another place, but it doesn't seem possible.

Hum level 3/10.

Work days suck right now.

We are going to dinner at the ILs, and I am going to set up their wireless network for their computers. FWW gets some Momma time.

Later tonight; a grand experiment in SF. We are marking Sunday as "Make-out only night."

This means no skin-to-skin contact with erogenous zones. All erogenous zones MUST be covered with one layer of clothing. Clothing barriers are not to be crossed under any circumstances.

Why? To build anticipation.

Realized tonight how much UA time affects me.

Worked morning shift, came home, took a shower together, and hung out a tad. She was reading, I did some computer stuff, and we watched a movie.

Ate dinner, then watched another movie.

Heads up; watching movies together does NOT fulfill UA time. I knew this, but was initially happy to oblige.

Was looking forward to putting "Make-out only night" to the litmus, however DW has a stiff neck. Rubbed it out while we watched the movie. Things happen, so whatever. Better for DW to be feeling well, really.

So, anyway, I was giving some simple affection; just a soft caress - and I get hit with a random flash. An electric shock runs up both my arms, and I recoil. I fought it, tried again, flashed again, recoiled again. Third attempt, same thing.

Talked about it for a bit when we went to bed. Decided no more movies after dinner, no more double-features. The damage was done, however, and here I am up at 2AM, when I usually fall asleep no later than 10 or 11PM.

I fell asleep for an hour or two, but the brain is in overdrive.

Hum level 8/10.

This.

Flamed out last night. Flamed out HARD.

Just went off.

Every time I was met with an excuse or justification, I smashed it.

It is the first time since this all began that I actually spoke my full mind, and exactly how I felt.

It didn't feel good at all. I partially destroyed FWW. And then in the morning, she THANKS me?

The sad thing is, some of those delusions protected me a bit, too.

Now there are no delusions left. Every step and every action she took had no other outcome that what they lead to, and she was fully aware of it each step of the way.

It was her decision to make sure that every break and lunch every day she worked with him was spent with him.

It was her decision to text him outside of work (more so; she was the major initiator - she tried to excuse that he answered, but she initiated and carried on when he did). It was her decision to do this KNOWING that I would in no way be OK with it, and she knew that I wouldn't.

It was her decision to give him every opportunity to try to get physical, and when he didn't get far enough for her liking, she pushed back to make it get physical.

It was her decision to give him ample time, place, and opportunity for sex, and it was her decision to have sex with him, and to repeat it again and again. She made an effort to create the time and opportunity.

It was her decision to chase the attention of another man, rather than to work with her H on her marriage at all.

It was her decision to ignore me over and over and over over the years when I tried to communicate that my needs were not being met.


Yet, it is MY decision to give her another shot. It is MY decision to let her meet my needs, and to try to meet hers the best I can.

Bad to worse.

Nuked again. Two days in a row. Yeah, I'm good now, but at what cost? FWW has finally seen the anger and resentment that boils beneath the surface. I'm not proud of myself for letting it out.

Yet, I can still see something positive. How sad. I gained some admiration for her. I told her this morning how I admired that she could face me.

My "rage" is either the same as most people, or nothing like it. I don't know. To this day I have never called her any names. It's not just that I believe there is no use, it's just that the thought in and of itself of her fitting any filthy description has never crossed my mind or heart. I don't yell, I do curse. And she told me that the one thing that frightened her was that I was very cold, something she has never seen me be.

I hate these episodes...

@HeadHeldHigh,

Some Love Busting is to be expected in recovery. You want to do the best you can to eliminate it.

Most people feel better after they get angry. In fact, Dr. Harley just addressed this in his radio show Monday. We believe anger is therapeutic because we just feel so much better after we vent.

However, it's much better to retrain your brain to simply not get angry. Dr. Harley stated that this was his goal, and that it takes a great deal to make him angry now. When presented with a conflict, he's trained his brain to think through solutions to the conflict, and anger no longer enters the picture.

So while you can expect some anger as part of the bumps & bruises of recovery, do your best to learn to restrain it and learn to express your feelings without angry outbursts. Particularly, as males, we tend to be larger and stronger than females, and unrestrained anger can extract a terrible toll if we don't watch our actions very closely.

With 11" of height, and 100lbs on my wife, I am hyper-aware of the issue of physical manifestation of anger. I'm not a physically aggressive person in any form or manner... well, unless I could get my hands on OM. Otherwise, I'm more prone to approach things with humor or whatever.

I went through anger management at a pretty young age due to my temper.

And then, there is the issue of catharsis. Though I do feel some sort of catharsis when I let it out, I can't help but to fear I am only sustaining the negative within myself.

I'm really battling as to how to work this out. It's kind of hard when she picks up on it and works me until I give in and let it out.

You have entered Plan FU. This is not approved by MB, but it is *sometimes* effective when nothing else is.

However - you can't stay there for long. Not if you want to keep your marriage. What you need now are good strong boundaries *for yourself* that will keep you out of both the fog of Plan A and the destruction of Plan FU.

Here is the Boundaries post, in case you have not seen it:


A boundary is not defined as "something I don't like."

A boundary is defined as "something I will defend no matter what."

A very common question is, "How do I enforce a boundary? How do I make my spouse stop lying, how do I make my spouse stop dating OP, how do I make my spouse start taking care of our family instead of someone else's?"

The answer is: You don't.

Trying to "make" people do the things listed above is not enforcing a boundary. It's control, it's manipulation, it's laying down demands, etc. etc. etc.

And none of it works.

The answer to the question, "How Do I Enforce A Boundary?" is virtually always the same:

You remove yourself from the situation. You stop allowing the boundary trespasser to have any access to you at all.

This is what's meant by, "You can't control others. You can only control yourself."

You can't "make" your spouse stop lying to you - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse stop dating OP - - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse take care of your family instead of someone else's - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

Get the idea now?

Boundaries are for *you*. They are to protect you from people who would do you harm. They are NOT about "making" others do anything. They are about protecting *YOU*.

Castle walls don't make the invaders stop their cruel and destructive attitudes - but they do protect you from their intrusion.

Boundaries are castle walls.

And as far as anger goes, you will find that good boundaries will make much of it go away. Good boundaries really do make RAGE dissipate, because anger + fear = rage. Good boundaries keep you safe, and when you are safe, fear goes away. You will certainly have some righteous anger left, sure, but the RAGE will fade away because there is no longer the fear hanging around to fuel it.

Now I need to rework that to apply to me somehow.

As far as I know; she hasn't lied to me since full disclosure. There has been no direct contact w/ the OM since February 13, 2010 - when he moved out of state.

FWW is working overtime to make just compensation. I'm just trying to battle my recovery cycle.

So... I am having a hard time applying that to myself with the examples provided.

Consider taking her at her word � she really is grateful to see your anger.

Helen Fischer wrote something to the effect that one impediment to recovering or creating intimacy in a marriage post infidelity is the WS�s existential fear of the BS�s rage that on an existential level seeks to annihilate the WS�s self. I have searched in vain for where I read that or I would give you the link. I can testify to the truth of the statement.

Manifesting your rage takes it out of that existential/annihilation category and quantifies it for her. Fear of the unknown is more paralyzing and corrosive than fear of the known.


This is SO HUGE. If you have ever laid a hand on your wife or children in anger, used your physical strength to overpower her or blocked her exit from the room, she will be very tuned into this.

When your rage takes over, make sure you don�t come close to invading her physical space or make any sudden gestures. Make sure she has a clean exit out of the room without having to come too close to you.

HHH, I�m not suggesting you do any of that stuff, so please don�t feel like you need to respond or defend. Sometimes I post stuff to anyone who might read the thread. DNM�s post is the first one I have seen that touches on this very real issue so I wanted to expand.

The toll is, indeed, terrible.

Consider adopting a code word between the two of you and a code word you give yourself when you feel the anger mounting, which means stop, walk away, no matter what, a waiting period, and a plan for how you will re-engage.


And stop over-noodling the blowing up thing. You have had by my count three WW�s, four including yours, telling you that it is preferable to see it as we know it�s there.

No prob, Seeking.

I have really started keeping my thread and my journey alive for the benefit of others, not for myself. There is times where it is helpful to me, but as I ventured out and tried to support others, I wanted to make sure that I have something that shows that I am no angel of a BS.

I experience the same pain, loss, anger, fear, hopelessness, helplessness, anxiety, depression, and a spectrum of other "low" feelings that a lot of other BSs do. If I wish to be truly supporting of others, I feel it important that I be viewed as I really am; broken and confused, but trying to put it together, pick up the pieces, and move forward - even if I can't see the way.

But, yeah. I am not a violent person, and when I say "rage" the image that it conjures for some is probably far more frightening than what I actually do. In my 2 day nuke, I never raised my voice, sparsely cursed, and didn't call her any filthy names. What I said was; cold, calculated, painful. In 14 years together, and 11 years of marriage, none of that was ever my way.

I refuse to be mentally or emotionally abusive, and that is how this made me feel, that I was.

I would never raise a hand to my FWW, nor my children (in an abusive manner - I am not averse to a bottom swat), nor anyone else save for defense of my life, or the lives of my family. I'm a weenie, anyway. Don't like getting hit.

I would never block an exit for my wife to walk away, and the few times she has angered me to a point where I had to leave, she has never blocked me.

In those times, I left not because I feared I would be violent, but I feared cursing or raising my voice. I would leave until I could be composed and approach the issue calmly (though probably not fairly).

I refuse to disrespect my wife. She doesn't deserve that.

I'm really just focusing on how and when to get rid of these feelings before they become insurmountably built, and I begin to shut down to avoid them - at which point, I still lose, because she will not allow me to shut down.

Nothing to report but a solid few days.

Carved pumpkins with the kids Wednesday, she made Halloween cookies with the kids while I did homework yesterday.

No real bubbling right now, just the "normal" images flashing that I have to fight, and of course they come at the most inopportune time.

I kind of fight doubly. Sometimes I react physically to a flash, a twitch, a breath... and she wants to dig. I don't want to really tell her exactly what went through my head - but I don't quite know how to react when she catches it and starts asking.

She even has a habit of keeping to it, knowing that even if I lie to brush her off, I will only lie for so long. In fact, the usual break is she will just ask if I'm lying, and I confess...



I can't break her down again. I can't lose to this...

Meh. Right now, there is no "this," I'm actually in a good mood. Gonna go bring her some flowers at work before I head to school.

HHH, for the record , the night I explained to my H that my fear about him bringing up the A was making it hard to stay in the same room with him sometimes, he asked me to please, please stop posting my story here. He voluntarily closed the door on the subject � �is that why you have been acting so weird?�

He doesn�t think I�m foggy or lack humility or remorse � he laughed out loud at the last one.

He is managing his anger, fear and pain for our marriage � not for me � for our marriage.

Closing the door has freed us up to talk about some of the issues, but we do so without reference to the A or any details. When his anger makes no sense in the context, I�m quick to say �remember, it�s me you are mad at.� When he does something I find demeaning, I feel it is safe to bring it up. When I do something that makes him feel unsafe, he says so. I try to be all over that, but sometimes I miss stuff.

I have enormous respect for how he has handled this the last couple of months.

He says "have you been reading on that site again? I can tell when you get all weird and go doormat on me. I'm begging you honey -- stop.� He doesn't even like me reading here.

I think he�s right.

Awesome. Bringing up the affair is one of Dr. Harley's "enemies of good conversation", that make conversation extremely unpleasant and prohibits intimate conversation. Good on you for having that difficult conversation, reaching an agreement not to discuss it anymore, and moving forward to greater intimacy!


Well, if he's not enthusiastic about your participation here... you know the rule. We'll miss you. All the best!

PoJA, PoRH, PoUA - good stuff. All this should lead to exactly where you are. My experience with my FWW is different, and guided by the same policies. My boundaries are set for each step of recovery, as are my expectations. She has met every one, and as of yet has not directly opposed or objected, and I make it perfectly clear that I am willing to adapt if she does object.

We have been able to thoroughly and repeatedly discuss the A because each conversation has been increased in interval, and has been focused on not the gory details, but feelings and conditions which facilitated the events. This has been a process which has not only aided in healing, but has allowed further development of EP's, boundaries, and an opposite sex avoidance plan.

It's not perfect, however. I think that is something in myself. FWW enthusiastically agrees that she needs very strict and rigid boundaries - yet doesn't feel that I need the same boundaries. I think I am going to keep myself to the same standards whether she sees it as necessary or not, as not doing so makes me feel like a hypocrite. I also see it as a reciprocated respect issue.

Update:

Things are doing pretty well. Started circling the drain this weekend due to not meeting UA time - got lost in the mix of Halloween, the kids, work etc.

This time, however I caught on early and communicated it. So, the downward spiral was circumvented before I sunk and/or bombed.

We did have a discussion about intimacy and SF. This is an unfortunate positive of the A. Prior to the A, FWW did not bring intimacy to the table with SF. She applied it to Affection and conversation, but was unconsciously removing it from SF - during our whole marriage. It was like an after-thought omission. It lead to "something missing" in the A situation.

I guess I win. SF is COMPLETELY different ever since the A - even before MB-based recovery.

I hate it, but I finally have what I felt was missing for all that time - and just could not get across to her.

My wife has expressed the same sentiment about me helping out with more chores around the house and paying attention when she's talking.

Posted this elsewhere, reposting in my own thread for conservation purposes.

For context; this was after ILYBINILWY on February 6th, 2010 - but pre snooping, and discovery of A activity 2-2 1/2 weeks later.

Had I been given full context for ILYBINILWY, this letter would not exist.

I almost started a bad situation.

I think it's time to merge FWW and I's FB accounts.

A day or two ago, I got an add from an "old friend." And not the good kind, either.

It was that "one friend" some people have had, where there was some kind of romance or whatever that never quite stuck. When I was dating my wife, and after she got pregnant, this friend backed off. I talked to her a few times, and supported her through a crisis at the time, but she kept her distance.

The last time she had any type of contact, she came and visited my W and saw my oldest D when she was a few weeks old.

She kept out of contact from then on... until FB.

I didn't think about it when I clicked accept, but it stewed. I sent her a message stating that out of respect to my marriage, I just could not be in contact with her, and deleted her.

I think my FB account has to go as well. I just can't have these inroads available. I now have to keep more stringent boundaries than I ever have in the past because the betrayal has left me far too vulnerable to temptations that simply did not exist before.

W called while I was posting, explained to her the situation.

She may not have considered this a "threat." At one time, I might not have, either. Now I do. I am too damaged to take any risk like this.

Ok, so we talked a little more, FWW stated "If there is ANYONE I would consider a threat, it's her."

My earlier assumption, I know now, comes from fogbabble when I was pushing for... well... something resembling NC. OM was a few weeks from leaving the state, and I wanted contact to be as limited as humanly possible until then.

Part of me wishes I had went Hiroshima and just exposed it right then and there to kill it at the root...


Rough day, right under the surface. No discernible reason. The thread I hold on to is myself. If worst comes to worst, I'll be alright.





I wish I was free of this!

I see her in my dreams!
Wish that she wasn�t there
But she still haunts me and I
Still feel her breath on me!
Still want to taste her skin!
But I know that would kill me

No damn her! still I choke on her lies!
Still Reeling from her last caress her goodbye!

Oh how this sickens me!
This wretched fools affair
I can't erase this from me

And now it permeates
And every thought I feel
The anger writhes in my soul

No damn her, still I feel my stomach turn
Choke back hold my head high I'm strong

No damn her, still I choke on her lies
Not reeling I'm strong

It's really descending on me today. Can't really nail down any contributing factors. UA time has been good - EN's.... pretty well met.

Just gonna take it as part of the cycle I suppose. Hoping UA time today will crush it. Don't know.



Too late, this is not the answer
I need to pack it in
I can't pull your heart together,
With just my voice alone.

A thousand shards of glass,
I came to meet you and,
And you cut the piece out of me.

And as you ripped it all apart
That's when I turned to watch you.
And as the light in you went dark
I saw you turn to shadow

If you would salvage some part of you
That once knew love
But I'm losing this
And I'm losing you

Oh, I've gotta turn and run
From faces that you've never seen
Oh I've gotta save my blood
From all that you've broken
I hold these pieces of me

It's too late now
To stop the process
This was your choice
You let it in
This double life you lead
Is eating you up from within
A thousand shards of glass
You pushed beneath my skin
Left me lying there to bleed

And as you showed me your scars I only held you closer
But as the light in you went dark
I saw you turn over
I wanted always to be there for you and close to you
But I'm losing this
And I'm losing you

Oh, I've gotta turn and run
From faces that you've never seen
Oh I've gotta save my blood
From all that you've broken
I hold these pieces of me

The broken pieces
I hold these pieces of me
The broken pieces
I hold these pieces

Maybe without me you'll return
To all the beauty I once knew
But if I stay I know
We will both be drowned by your holding onto me

Oh, I've gotta turn and run
From faces that you've never seen
Oh I've gotta save my blood
From all that you've broken
I hold these pieces of me

The broken pieces
I hold these pieces of me
The broken pieces
I hold these pieces of me

'K?

Hi HHH, I am sorry you are going through such a rough time. One of the things that helped me most was something Barnboy touched on, and that is not bringing up the affair. The more you bring it up, if you are tempted, the more top of mind it remains. This will get better FASTER if you go through the motions of having a good time and meeting each others top 4 INTIMATE needs. Replacing your hurt with a romantic, fulfilling relationship will be the most effective medicine.

And I applaud you for recognizing the risk on facebook. We have so many affairs on SAA that started that way. Fortunately, you recognize the danger of opposite sex friendships, ESPECIALLY the danger of former beaus.

Hang in there, I promise you it does get better!

You know, there are some moments where you really do, truly shine? Just thought you should know that.


Also, thanks Melody.

Ditto

Thanks to you, too, Pep.

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!


Bah. Anger/Pain buzzing. Hate it.

Need nonsense...

My rational self wants me to remember; anger follows pain. We react with anger when we experience pain as a way to rid ourselves of the source of our pain. No more source = no more pain.

Pain = stress = sickness.

This is converse to the desires of my other selves.

Angry self, will you shut the *censored* up, please?

You pain does not care one whit what your rational self has to say. Your rational self can marshal a hundred different brilliant arguments with your pain, and your pain will win 100% of the time without uttering a word.

Have you ever noticed that we walk through the valley of the shadow of death? We don�t hang around in it making s�mores or blaze some trailhead around or beside or above it. We walk through it. It begins and it ends, and begins and ends, again and again.

Your pain is telling you something. Your pain will NOT be denied. If you don�t listen to what it is telling you, it will lead you through that valley again and again, in ways you cannot begin to imagine on November 13, 2010.

What might your pain be telling you about you � the only person you in fact control?

You are inadequate.
You are less than.
You are unimportant.
You are stupid.
You failed to notice.
You failed to take action.
You can�t trust yourself
You are imperfect.

I don�t know, haven�t been a BH, but those things sprang to mind. Where is truth? You aren't inadequate, less than, unimportant or stupid.

Parse through those things that are real, and those that aren�t, those you control and those your don�t. Accept what you can�t change, and change what you can. Because the best antidote for pain that i have found is action born of power.


People who know me IRL think the cold callous stuff is absolutely hilarious. I took it very personally for a long time and periodically tried to rehabilitate my image to no avail. Then a very, very wise poster pointed out to me that I give away my power too easily. My forum experience has been an interesting process because it was just more of the same of me wanting, and failing, to be what I was expected to be instead of accepting that I just am who I am. And I am, in fact, a pretty cool lady.

So there.

Very excellent post SB.

I giving up the idea of being perfect is still a daily struggle for me. I am glad to see that you are doing so well!

However, if your pain is due to historical events rather than current ones, it's possible to marshal a little intellectual resolve and blunt the edge so that you can remain rational to deal with it:

http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/Emotional%20Memory.html

Also, if you're really having trouble being rational and clear-headed at this time you most need to think clearly, Dr. Harley recommends common antidepressant medications. If your fear, resentment, and pain make it impossible for you to follow the plan for recovery -- Care, Protection, Time, and Honesty -- AD meds usually can take the edge off the emotional reactions so that you can follow the plan.

Day 3 in the funk. Wondering if there isn't a physical issue. Not my first bout with depression, just the first time I've faced it with something to actually be depressed about.

Gonna push more water, cut off of caffeine, and try to get off my butt and exercise more.

HHH I am still going through your thread. This post in particular...

WOW... very excited to read the responses to it because you nailed it. The non-static $LB, just.. wow. That so explains it. Fine, happy one day, or even one minute, than like for NO REASON, just morose. Morbid depressing hurt. Its terrible. I am sure it doesnt feel good to tell your FWW that (taking a dump on heart thing) but if its anything like me, its the truth.

The first time OM reached for my WWs genitals was while I was in the next room on the MB website trying to understand what I was doing wrong. They were watching TV on the couch and WW KNOWS how much I hate TV, and now I hate it even more because of all this. But I totally get that resentment, that, "It took an affair."

She said way back when she was in the fog something to the effect of "Well, we hurt eachother, now we can go forward." Wow that infuriated me. I know that WE didnt have a great marriage before, but even then I knew that I was not responsible for her behavior. Not only that, but I see some people say that their marriage is better post-A than it was pre-A, and some even to the point of almost saying the A made their marriage better, because it opened their eyes.

That may be true, but my eyes were open BEFORE the A, I didnt "need" her to cheat on me for me to 'get it,' and that is definately a HUGE source of resentment.

I will NEVER say that adultery made my marriage better.

Sweet Babboo and I were able to work/struggle/find our way out of the pit of hell to a better marriage in spite of adultery. Not because of it.

Carry on, gentlemen.

Nor will I.

The day when my MIL looked at me all dopey and said "You guys are so much STRONGER" I just wanted to puke. Serial adulteress - she must think cheating is a magic potion for "better."


If we are "stronger," it is because we HAVE to be, or it won't survive. It HAS to be better, or the injury will cause it to fail.

I liken it to something like a severe knee injury. Yes, the injury may heal some, but the knee will never be the same. So you have to rehab, learn to walk and/or run differently to protect the injured part, and strengthen every thing else around the injury, otherwise you just aren't going to walk - and if you do, it won't be without significant difficulty and pain.


Really peaked last night. Didn't nuke, though. I just simply could not kiss my W. Every time I tried, I would get hit with images and it was sucking the breath out of me. I just couldn't breathe.

Usually, I can push through and ignore them, but last night I couldn't. It's the first time since this all started that it had affected me that much.

I have heard several analogies to this, for instance "Chucking buckets of sand into a lake."

To me, sometimes it feels like a severe hemorrhage. It's almost like, rather than simply a huge love buster, what happened was a GD bank buster. It's like her account has this gaping hole, and she has to deposit mounds and piles to overcome the leakage.

The only real opposite I really have to overall MB, is that my low balance did not ever cause me to not feel in love, it caused me to not feel loved by her.

The injury is causing me to fight and choose between my love, and my pain. I can overcome the pain with more love, but if I give in to my pain, it will take as long as it takes to recover the M to just recover myself and be able to move on.

I'm hedging my bet on recovery. So far, it looks like a good bet...

I've used that one a number of times. Storms will wash down the island you're building. Waves will take parts with it. You'll go a very, very long time tossing those buckets in, trusting that you're in the right spot and the balance is building.

Then one day, a little bit of sand appears on the surface as you toss that bucket into the lake. You finally breached the surface! You've broken through that Love Bank balance!

But just on the return trip to get more sand, your effort gets washed away. You can't see it anymore, and chances are good the next toss won't breach the surface again because of a change in the current. But you just keep tossing those buckets on there.

Eventually, you build a magnificent island and party together there with your spouse. But you have to keep making those trips back to shore to bring more sand, because time and weather take their toll even if you build seawalls!

Ok, caught up...

Hope you are doing better HHH.

I just wanted to throw one more thing out there. Some people mentioned places being triggers.

There is a town south of us and we used to always drive the same to go down there every couple of weeks for Costco/etc runs. There IS another way thats about the same time, but we never used to take it.

Well, that old route takes us by the place WW and OM first met for SF. There are giant water towers etc there to mark it, you cant miss it, it F*ING KILLS ME, and has ruined a couple trips just going by it.

WW almost always drives. She wants to, and I dont really care if I do or not, so she does. One thing that has been so awesome is SHE now takes the "right" way to town. There have been a couple trips recently where I didnt even notice that we went a different way nor think about why we were.

The times I do notice, I feel much better knowing she is caring for me.

I linked / quoted a couple of the posts from your thread to WW about you exploding on your FWW and some of the Vets responses.

WW expressed to me (in response) that she feels like I feel/think things like that but never tell her, and that she is afraid of what I think/feel, feels like she deserves the worst, and wishes she could be allowed to know.

Unfortunately I have stopped her from leaving the room in the past. I guess I would say I am not "abusive" but thats just self justification and rationalization. Kind of a "well she hasnt had to go to the hospital, so its not bad." Actually, I had to go to the hospital once when she gave me a concussion, but thats another story. Anyway, I may be able to SAY she is safe now, but that doesnt mean anything until trust is earned.

So, thank you to Mulan (or SB? sorry cant remember now who posted it) for those tips on making a discussion FEEL safer.

I can see where the stress level could be reduced by being aware of positioning, allowing WW and I an "escape" route, and being very aware of personal space.

I have never exploded on WW since the A. The way you describe your "outbursts" HHH sounds eerily familiar. I think the worst are my sarcastic "humorous" jibes I dont always catch.

The worst one recently that I still feel bad for was we were in Borders, and I saw a book called "Sex After 50." I laughed and pointed it out to WW. There might be an obvious reason why someone like me would point to that and laugh, but SHE knows that its because her AP is 50 and needed Viagra to fornicate with her and I am "rubbing it in." Of course, she didnt laugh and was very hurt, and the people with us were kinda confused why she seemed that way after the seemingly innocuous comment I had made.

Rookie. My FWW winged me in the butt with a .20-gauge shotgun a few years back! No hospital time necessary, but a few months ago I had a funny zit in the right butt cheek. I picked at it a bit because it felt odd, and out popped a bit of lead shot!

Should have saved it as a memento. I just tossed it in the garbage and shared the story when I got home.

The thing that I find funny about the boiling point, was the way WW's here responded. I suppose it helps me understand my own FWW a little better. I'm still working on anti-nuke strategies.

A tip for depression; vitamin C and Vitamin B6 aka Niacin both have properties which help alleviate depression.

I tend to drink a lot of Rockstar, which is loaded with B vitamins (and caffeine, which I want to avoid) and haven't been drinking them lately. So, I could be down on Niacin leading to my recent depressive state.

Shot in the a$$ by DW... thats one for the grand kids...

HHH, I dont know about the Niacin / B Vitamins things so no comment there, but I DO know that I used to subsist on about a 12 pack of MtDew or Pepsi a day shortly after High School. I lived with a friend and we didnt have running water so we drank soda. Stupid, but I was 17...

Anyway, I join the Navy and go through boot camp and cant figure why I feel so darned AWESOME all day EVERY DAY! IN BOOT CAMP! Till I go home and spend 2 days with this friend again drinking MtDew / Pepsi.

Its water man. At least for me. Caffeine / Sugar in sodas 24/7 just makes me feel like a motor with sand thrown in it. Water is the best thing ever. Carry a half gallon jug with you and try to have it gone by noon, and then TRY finish a second by 7pm or so, but if you dont, dont stress. Three to four quarts a day for a relatively sedentary lifestyle will do WONDERS for just feeling "good."

Another bonus effect is if you ween yourself off all that constant caffeine intake, when you REALLY need a shot of that juice for an overnight drive or something, IT WORKS. Like, hands shaking works.

tl;dr - replace Rockstars / Coffee / sodas with Water, see how that works for you...

Obviously doing some exercise is great too, even if its a brisk walk with DW a few laps around the block.

Yup. Even Gatorade is better than soda. Soda is c-r-u-d. If you ever pay attentions, you will notice that if you are working and sweating, your sweat will be "thicker" if you are a soda drinker.


Main thing I am avoiding is the caffeine, however. The physiology of how caffeine works in your body sucks. It doesn't wake you up, it just keeps you from shutting down.

Vitamins and depression; http://depression.about.com/cs/diet/a/vitamin.htm (I'll do more digging and see if I can find better evidence)

The barbs are killer -- KILLER. No way to respond plus public humiliation as the icing on top. She HATED you in that moment -- and I don't use that word hate lightly.

You can keep it up because it is justified. Or you can hold your tongue and work towards creating a healthy marriage.

Your choice.

I responded to the barbs by taking a vow of silence that would make a monk weep with envy at my fortitude.

You asked what FWW's think. That's what I think.

I think FWW would walk if I tossed out little barbs.

She'll push me over the edge when I'm shutting down to avoid nuking, and withstand the nuke... but I doubt she would ever tolerate small barbs in front of other people.

I don't really disrespect her like that, either. Just not something I do...

You speak highly of your FWW.

How does this fit in with the "whatever it takes as long as it takes" position.

You were awfully hard on me for saying what I would and wouldn't tolerate -- all sorts of labels and judgments ensued.

The difference is, I said it and you -- and I don't mean just you -- I mean the people who responded to that -- hate the thought that the WS has options too.

Which means you have to temper your stuff if you want to keep them around which means you don't get to just unload whenever wherever you feel the need because you just ASSUME they will be there to take it because every message you get says that is so.

Here is a contrary message: ain't so.

I know I need to cut it out.

I happen to agree with the BS and WS BOTH get to make a choice.

I also believe that once the choice is made, its just wrong to do it by halves.

I chose to give reconciliation a chance. That means we work toward that.

If I wanted to throw her A in her face whenever I wanted in a callous and maliciously hurtful manner, than I shouldnt have mislead her with the olive branch of reconciliation. I should have left her, and then I can be as hurtful as I want, she is free to discontinue contact with me.

As it stands, I have told her I want her back and that I will keep her safe, than I prove myself a liar and not worthy of trust when I abuse her with these comments.

It really is not cool.

I am working on them.

I think much worse comments several times a day and manage to keep most of them back, but its not ok to "just" shoot someone with a pistol only once a day. You have to just not shoot people, because oddly enough, people dont really like getting shot.

See? I knew you were sensitive!



"Whatever it takes for as long as it takes" sounds horrible, doesn't it? Oh, how could one suffer the indignity?

Yet, if you read through these boards, does anyone really advocate tolerating continued abuse, or wielding an A like a weapon toward a WS?

No. It's not advocated, and it's not supported. It still happens, regardless. People empathize with it. It's a very difficult thing to keep the person who has dealt you the most painful emotional blow you have received in your life close to you.

In fact, it's not really a natural thing to do. That's why we have anger, that's why we have resentment; to keep those who injure us far, far away. Recovery requires us to retrain our instinct to drive away those who have hurt us.

That is what a BS faces.

What a WS faces, is trying to stay close to this person who has every alarm in their mind and body now rejecting the WS.

It's a daunting task for either party.


If I speak highly of my FWW, it's because she is so repentant, that I pity her. She has shed more tears in all of this than I have. She has cried so hard, that I see and hear that she is physically in pain, and she often feels nauseated when the feelings hit.

I pity that, because it was her own decisions that brought this down on us both. I can't imagine having that responsibility. I don't want to be in this emotional hell, but I didn't have that choice. She did, she chose hell.


So, if there are times where I can't look at her, don't want to touch her, can't speak to her... does she now have the "option" to walk away? Is facing the damage that she CHOSE to do to her spouse, and herself, some kind of far reaching expectation? I don't think so.

Is creating total transparency too much to ask? I don't think so.

Oh, but the subject here is... what? A poly. This was the "intolerable" act. Embarrassing and infuriating. So what is too much to ask? To try to give the BS some peace of mind, to take an action of self-sacrifice and sincerity to confirm honesty. "Oh, but I'm honest!" Honest enough to lead a double life built on lies and subversive actions. And then expect the person you betrayed to just magically believe "Oh! My WS is honest again, just like that!"

Look, I'll extend you this branch; studies show that polygraphs detect lies about as well as pigs detect pork, but the validity of the test isn't the issue. The way I see it, is that it is the action, the sincerity involved in this is what matters.

It's an action saying "I am no longer willing to be deceptive, and I will do 'whatever it takes' to prove that to you."

I wouldn't say making yearly trips to the poly examiner is tolerable, but a single act to start reconciliation is a huge step.

If the affair proves anything...

it's that the ws has options, both legitimate and illegitimate and they will take them based upon entitlement.

In early recovery, BS's don't sleep to well at night on the promise "I'll be here as long as it takes".

Further, BS's would also love to turn back time and give back the legitimate option to divorce. It's not a prize.

Mr. Wondering

The barbs really are terribly painful I don't think I realized how much. He used to do that about other things...my organizational skills, my weight, etc....now it is my affair.

Last night we played a video game where you can launch balls at the other player...He said, "haven't you done enough to me already." I stopped launching balls. I also stopped enjoying the game.

I think both Sunny and HHH are right.

The barbs are terribly painful.

It can also seem impossible to hold them all back because EVERYTHING INSIDE YOU IS SCREAMING: "DONT TRUST THIS MONSTER SHE DESTROYED EVERYTHING YOU TRUSTED, GET HER AWAY NOW BEFORE ITS TOO LATE."

Everything. Everything is screaming it, there is nothing else in your mind. I have learned that I have just not talk, and have told WW that if we are talking and I stop, and she asks why, I am going to say "I am not talking," and asked that she accept that gratefully as a supreme effort of protection.

I am not talking because I want to hurt her, I am not talking because any word out of my mouth is going to be horrible because there is a panic'd terrified animal inside that is straining to get away from the pain.


TOO F*N TRUE! (Expletive added for emphasis)

SO NEAT that adultary is get out of jail free card.

Get out of jail free card??!?! Pffffttt, I would trade that for no affair ANY DAY. It is definately no prize.

FWW read this. I got the riot act. It is a DJ of me to even think this way.

Though, she said she only has a single instance in our entire marriage and relationship in which I ever barbed her.

I'm not proud of even that once...

Status report; purchased large Costco bottles of Multivitamins ("Mature" due to content), and B-100 "energy blend."

Taking 1 Multi three times a day, 2 B-100's in the AM and PM, and one when I get home from school/work.

Thus far, it has "installed a glass floor." Where I "bottom out" mood wise is higher up the spiral, and just seems to stop at a certain point.

I am also noticing an improvement in... er... output.

Additionally, SF has gained some benefit on my end. Interesting...

Good times!

The greatest SF benefit I've ever found is lifting heavy weights weekly week, focusing a lot on exercises that tax my whole body and particularly my "core". The 'core' isn't the abs, like so many people think. It's your hips, thighs, and butt!

Spend six weeks doing squats and deadlifts with heavy weights at least once a week apiece. Heavy enough you can't do more than 8-12 reps in a set. Building muscle in the largest muscle groups of your body (butt, hips, thighs, back) increases testosterone production in men, which gives us a huge boost in the bedroom.

Nothing better, dude. I've got weights in the basement, and lifting heavy in a way that taxes those large muscle groups brings the energy benefits within a week or two at most.

Well, let's just say this vitamin regimen - along with the energy boost - seems to have an effect on... hmm... the quality of blood flow?

Not claiming any miracles or anything, but the difference in blood flow is noticeable.

Adding weekly lifting heavy weights will add to that. Noticeably

Will have to do. I would say some good cardio work, for at least 30 minutes should as well.



Interesting quote for the day;

I really relate to this statement. Sometimes it feels like this happens to me once a day.

Wanna know the hardest part? She got it back anyway, even if I didn't want to give it.

I have this, though; my older sister divorced the father of her children, and left him in the dust due to his infidelity. He remarried to a woman who brought the worst out of him, and that eventually left to his death due to drug overdose.

What happened after she left him was in no way, shape, or form the fault of my sister - but the look of regret she had the day she buried him (10 years after leaving him, and his current wife was too doped out to care about burying him), and the regret she lives with every day is something I wouldn't want to face.

I also get to see the look of regret on the face of my own father that his marriage to my mother didn't work out.


Not going to be me. NOT. GOING. TO. BE. ME.

My mother is an unrepentant serial adulteress widow, living alone, having alienated most of her children -- including me -- with her ongoing self-absorbed behavior.

My stepfather, who was my mother's affair partner, died of cancer 3 years ago after a 17-year marriage to my mother. I never liked him, but tolerated him for two decades.

My stepbrother is dead as of a couple of months ago from a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head. His wife had an affair, and he used that excuse to ramp up the previous EAs (possibly PAs) he'd been engaged in. This behavior destroyed his marriage and eventually his life.

I'm right with you, brother. Not going to be me. NOT. GOING. TO. BE. ME. No broken home for the kids of this guy.

Me too guys- 4 kids who don't deserve this, and WS whom I still love completely, despite all of this.

NOT. GOING. TO. BE. ME. EITHER.

So, the way I figure, the whole thing started back in October, when they started having "relationship talk" and she commented to OM that "sometimes, it feels like we're roomates." Thus began the intimate conversation during lunch and breaks at work.

The dam burst in January, when the contact began outside of work, and it didn't take any time whatsoever after that.

Had a discussion the other night. I feel like we need to tell the older DD's. They know something happened. I know they've seen the pain and anger on my face, and they've walked in after FWW has broken down.

I feel like I owe it to my children to be truthful with them so that, hopefully, they never have to face this in their own lives.

FWW is terrified that the kids will "hate her." I don't know...

They need to no the truth so will no that they are not to blame for the tension in the house.

Simply state that a WW had a boyfriend and went out on dates with the OM (make sure to tell them the OM's name). Whats known an affair.

Follow up with that married women do not have boyfriends and go on dates. And, the same goes for married men, no girlfriends.

The "glass floor" has failed the past 2 days, and I'm spiraling again.

Fuuuuuuuu........


I don't know what to do when I'm up to my neck in anger and pain. Just holding tight hasn't worked yet, and the last time I tried that, I was in it for 5 days sinking deeper and deeper.

I can't complain about the present, FWW works her tail off trying to keep me out of this, sometimes it's just not enough. I don't think the family invasion for the holiday has helped.

Hi there,
I can hear your frustration and I can relate, it's such a roller coaster for the BS's.
It's because we try to make sense of someone else's decision, we can't do that, we will go around and around a million times trying to figure out some logical reason it all happened.
This is not our decision to feel responsible for, we didn't make the decision, it's not ours to feel bad about...........
Our past is gone it's up to us to make a different life now, a happy one, let go of the old one, it's never going to be like that again.........
Don't dwell, live just for today and tomorrow.............
Remember the big picture......

Thanks, Jess.

I'm far over trying to rationalize. I'm over looking for my fault and blame in her decision. That is why it is now anger instead of pain.

I hurt when I felt like I had failed. Yes, I had my shortcomings, but that was more related to a work schedule, and allowing myself to be last on the "to-do" list each and every day.

By the time I started posting, the time for self-blame had ended. I suppose that the bargaining phase of grief was over. I have no reason to return to that.

What I struggle with now, I suppose, is PoRH. I have a hard time being currently and emotionally honest. I spend so much damn time being angry, and unable to escape that anger... but I won't tell FWW that I am angry until I can't hide it any more.

I'm being a protective liar. I'm protecting her from knowing about it, and protecting myself from her attempting to explore or understand my anger.

There is nothing to explore, nothing to understand. There is nothing there that can be "fixed" with anything outside of time, care, and protection.

Thankfully, I haven't allowed it to take me to a point of shunning her or shutting her out, and I don't think she would allow it if I ended up trying.

I've seen some WS's explaining the "endurance" of a BS "winning them back." I feel reversed from that. She checked out enough to have an A, but it's me that has to be "won back" at this point.

She has apologized to me several times. I don't find it unattractive, or pathetic. In fact, I'm beginning to find those apologies finding cracks in my psyche.

She told me the other night how much she wanted my forgiveness... in that moment I wanted to tell her that I did forgive her, just to ease her pain, but even as the words formed in my mind, I knew that I don't yet. The desire to is there as it has been the whole time, but the actual feeling of forgiveness isn't there yet.

It's building, and she's doing well.

HHH,

I did what you were thinking of,,,,said I forgave him when I really didn't....then the anger came and I could not understand why. Here I was a Christian and I am suppose to forgive, right? How do you forgive this?

I know I have read many stories on here about couples that come out stronger and seem happy and that is what I am praying for.

HU

The only way we will know, is if we put the work in, and give it the time to do so.

2-5 Y-E-A-R-S.

I often have to remind myself of that time frame.

I think I'm hitting a bad rage phase.

I triggered last night when we went to Walmart to buy her some thermal pants. She wears them to work in the winter time to keep warm. I think that, with the impending approach of the anniversary of the A is building up on me.

I am so. angry. So, so, so, so, so, so angry.

We took a bath when we got home, and she tried to initiate SF... physically, I couldn't respond. It's one thing as a man that you can't "fake" or "hide."

She told me that I could "yell at her" if it made me feel better, but I refused. There's just nothing to talk about.

Upped my B intake - might be enough to keep me from going Hiroshima, but it hasn't been enough to keep it away.

BLEARGH!!!!!!

Not every, but many BS's enter an anger phase which lasts about six months.

This phase usually starts at about six months past D day.

The only advice I have is to be honest and don't stuff your feelings. I've been having the same cycle with my BH for over a year. One minute he is madly in love with me and the next he is asking for a divorce.

The problem with this is that I am tempted to "protect" myself from the good stuff so the fall isn't so hard. In MB terminology it is tempting to close my love bank from deposits so he can't make withdrawls. I know this is wrong and thus far have avoided it but it is hard work.

We talked last night and I told him that he needs to be honest with himself and not say the "I love yous" and show affection unless it is genuine. I even said we have had this divorce discussion before and we end of in each other's arms with him apologizing. Then.....guess what?....he ended up holding me and apologizing!

I do not think he can make a rational decision about recovering our marriage unless he at least honestly explores his other options. I am trying to make this easy for him and not demand that any of my needs be met. I'm just not sure how long this should be. Prior to my A I was never honest about my needs. I consistently DJ'd him and assumed he wouldn't/couldn't do something for me. I am trying not to do that now. I just can't quite get the balance of giving him the opportunity to meet my needs without demanding that he do so

I feel like a kid at Christmas. How do you ask for what you want without being selfish and demanding? When you get something you don't want, how do you express it so the person doesn't make the same mistake again?

"Grandma, I gave up playing with dolls 6 years ago, get with the program."

Sorry for the TJ. Your thread is really helping me to understand my BH and I am aspiring to be like your wife who seems to instively get it right.

By all means, TJ. Part of the reason I even continue my own thread is in the hopes that it will somehow also help others. Contributing to other people is a human need as well.


So, I did nuke again last night. Another 3+ days of spiraling anger. There isn't so much pain, but anger. I did try, finally, to just talk about what I was feeling. I talked to her about my feeling of loss, about what I feel that I've lost.

It's a funny thing. I kind of envy FWW. Her actions did not cost her the innocence and trust in her love for me, but mine is gone. I'm not sure I'll ever have it back. Maybe... maybe I will. Maybe in 10 years, 20... maybe one day the shock, anger, and loss will be nothing more than a distant memory.

I really only mentioned divorce once - I said I want to divorce until we recover, and then remarry. I wanted to throw away what was broken, and build something completely new. It was because the A, to me, invalidated all the years, every day, up until she crossed the line. Once I mentioned leaving to "figure myself out." By that time, we had started reading the online articles here... so she had ammo. I lost that battle. Can't say I regret that.

She sometimes says she wishes that I would just RA her "even if it was just a ONS." Last night, she mentioned it again. To what end? I told her that it would accomplish nothing. We wouldn't be "even" and she still wouldn't understand me any better. Her guilt would tell her, despite what anyone else would try to say, that she deserves it. Nobody deserves this agony. There would be no telling her different, and I know this.

So, I feel better after talking to her - but it wrecks her so bad when I do. On the other hand, when I don't, it seems like it wrecks her just as bad. So, I can't really do good either way. I'm trying to learn to better shape how I talk with her when I get this way, so that I don't feel like I'm some sort of abusive [censored].

Sounds like you did a good job. I think for me I would rather have the radical honesty than have to "guess" at what he is feeling. It is like walking around in the dark not knowing where the next step will lead.

Me being "wrecked" is a consequence of my actions and it is almost a relief when it happens. It is the only time I feel like we are being real.

So much before, during and after the affair was a facade on both our parts. I just can't do that anymore.

The thing I need is for him to be vulnerable, the last thing he wants to do is be vulnerable...especially to me. Sucks any way you look at it.

ITA with sunny. I'd much rather my H be honest with me than shut me out. I hate it. His withdrawal is killing me. Sometimes with Plan A I feel like I am walking around trying to pretend everything is great, "la-de-da-ti-da!!!" (whatever, I can't sing) And H is sitting there miserable, shut tight in the walls of this fortress I can't breach.

You can't spare your FWW from being "wrecked," sunny's right, it is a consequence of our actions. I read on another thread here about how it wasn't fair to "protect" the WS (or FWS, for that matter) from the consequences of their actions.

I'll take what sunny said re: vulnerability and apply it to my M - what I need for my H is for him to be O&H with me...but how can he be O&H with someone who betrayed his trust so badly?

It does suck. Totally.

Thanks ladies.

Not like it's the first time that both of you have told me this. Among others.

I just keep banging my head into it.

When the water is cold...we all know the best way to get in is to jump.

But who really wants to do that?

I realized after nuking this last time, that her willingness, her ability to stand in the fire is really winning my love and respect.

She tells me that it makes her admire me? WHAT? Well, even when it's that bad - pain and anger - I am being OPEN with her.

It's fear closing me off. Fear of hurting her. Fear of driving her away. Fear that she is just going to look at me and say "What? You're not over it YET?"

Back to The Notebook, I think:



It's also a DJ to assume that being open with her is going to hurt her, or that she won't be able to handle that hurt.

Haven't spiraled or nuked in... 2 weeks?


Something like that...

Yay?

Music post today.

Early on in all this crap, FWW went out of town with a friend of hers for a weekend of city-hopping thrift shopping.

With time to myself, I went out and bought running shoes, and a song came on the radio that resonated with me very strongly.

It currently stands as my favorite song, and is FWW's ringtone for me.



Bury all your secrets in my skin,
Come away with innocence and leave me with my sins.
The air around me still feels like a cage,
And love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage... again.

So if you love me let me go,
And run away before I know.
My heart is just too dark to care
I can't destroy what isn't there.

Deliver me into my fate,
If I'm alone I cannot hate.
I don't deserve to have you.
Ooh, my smile was taken long ago,
If I can change I hope I never know.

I still press your letters to my lips,
And cherish them in parts of me, that savor every kiss.
I couldn't face a life without your lights,
But all of that was ripped apart when you refused to fight

So save your breath, I will not care.
I think I've made it very clear.
You couldn't hate enough to love.
Is that supposed to be enough?

I only wish you weren't my friend
Then I could hurt you in the end
I never claimed to be a saint,
Ooh, my own was banished long ago,
It took the death of hope to let you go.

So break yourself against my stones,
And spit your pity in my soul.
You never needed any help,
You sold me out to save yourself.

And I won't listen to your shame,
You ran away, you're all the same.
Angels lie to keep control.
Ooh, my love was punished long ago,
If you still care don't ever let me know
If you still care don't ever let me know

Wow, HHH, I'd have to say I share some of your feelings, but at the same time we are opposites. Thank you for your story and support on my posts. Merry Christmas!

Christmas eve survival plan; climb inside a bottle of whiskey and smile...

Don't climb in, wet your lips a little. Find a talk show on the radio to fall asleep to. Tomorrow is another day needing you to be strong to fight.

Needed a break from strong. Had a little silly instead.

2 days in the spiral before Xmas, back into it after.

No nukes, no nukes, no nukes!!!

Which actually feels like it works against me. It's now expected that I "talk it out" when I crash, but I just have a hard time seeing the use.

Good band. I prefer some of their earlier stuff.

Soooo...I pulled out my handy dandy Android phone and clicked on Gtunes and downloaded a bunch of their other songs off that album. let's see if I like it.

Was kind of a "Greatest Hits +" album.

Dig it, though.

Wow.

I think it's been a month since I nuked last.

Not that I haven't gone down the hole. It's kind of driving FWW nuts, though. When I don't get something out, I tend to spend longer in the dumps. She also wants to know what is in my head and whatnot. But, you know, mamma always said "If you ain't got nothin' nice to say, then don't say nothin'!"

This month blows. I only have rough estimates for the days that I busted her on the texting and for full disclosure. I know the day of ILYBINILWY, but it's vaguely unimportant. What I DO know, is the date of the day she first slept with douchenozzle. The day before her birthday. Great.

Seems her birthday is the day she has chosen for cheating on me.

Aaaaaaaaaanyway... hate Corey Taylor, but he keeps turning out music that gets me through;



It's only common sense so please don't take offense
I gotta say what's on my mind
Cuz all this bitterness has made me second-guess
And I have waited all my life
You know it's true - it isn't me, it isn't you
I can't be your man
But here's what I don't understand

If I can't live without you
But I can't breathe when I'm with you
What are we really doing here?
I don't wanna live without you
But God only knows what I've been through
Cuz dying is all we're doing here

You leave me suffering 'til I can't feel a thing
It's all I got when I want more
If I waste one more day then they can take me away
Cuz it'll be worse than it was before
You know it's true - it isn't me, it isn't you
I can't be your man
But here's what I don't understand

If I can't live without you
But I can't breathe when I'm with you
What are we really doing here?
I don't wanna live without you
But God only knows what I've been through
Cuz dying is all we're doing here

If I can't live without you
But I can't breathe when I'm with you
What are we really doing here?
I don't wanna live without you
But God only knows what I've been through
Cuz dying is all we're doing here
Oh, if I can't breathe when I'm with you
What are we really doing...
What are we really doing here?
I don't wanna live without you -
I don't wanna live without you
Cuz dying is all we're doing here

"If you ain't got nothin' nice to say, then don't say nothin'!"

I call that "The Thumper Defense"...because thats what Thumper's momma always told him

Excellent choice of music, HHH...there are lots of songs on that album that speak to me, too.

******

"We are what we think. All that we are arises from our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world." -- Buddha

Everything we do is a choice.
Everything emotionally we feel is a choice.
Therefore, anger is a choice we make.

I can say this with 100% certainty because I lived it.

I chose to live a very, very angry life over the past year +. I won't get into why, but just know that I was not a nice person to live with. I was very disrespectful to my family, especially my wife. I think God I never got physical..but sometimes words hurt more than any blow ever could.

I think that anger, and living angry, is much like an addiction. It isn't a normal addiction that makes us feel good...obviously...but its one that is very hard to escape from.

At some point, there will be a "bottom" that you'll hit.

My "bottom" was the day my wife said "We need to talk."

I knew that I couldn't keep living the way I had.

I knew that I had to *choose* a different way of living...that my unhealthy anger was sabotaging my marriage and, worst of all, making me be someone that I never thought I would be.

I had to *choose* a new way of thinking...to save myself and to save my marriage.

I had to *choose* new ways to react to situations that were going to come up....kids, school, other stressors...none of that was going to go away. None of that was going to change.

We talk about "triggers" so often on these boards. Well, they aren't going to go away....just like my family, job, school, etc. was not going to go away.

Its how I reacted to these things is the only thing that I had any control over at all.

For some things, I have a set "plan" on how to deal with it. For other stuff that comes up...deep breaths, and thinking before I react really helps. That way, I don't say hurtful things.

I can't tell you what to do, I can only tell you what helped me:

First thing I did was to "Let go, and let God." Cliche, I know, its somewhat cliche' and hard to do. I hadn't had Him in my life for a long time, but He was always there regardless of whether or not I saw it.

I fed my brain/soul/spirit with positive thoughts. No more "garbage in, garbage out". Every day...hell...damn near every hour for a few days, I looked up and read positive thoughts. Before, I just quoted these "smart" people because I thought that what they said made sense.

It wasn't until I had *lived* it, that what they said *really* clicked with me and thats when I gained some small bit of wisdom.

When I was upset about something, I didn't let it build up. From the sounds of it, you tend to bottle things up for days on end, and then, as you say, go "nuclear".

Get it out ASAP, as the anger comes.

I can't say any of this will work for you....I am not you, and I do not think like you.

But, I hope that in some small measure, maybe it will.

And know that you'll have good and bad days. I do...but know that tomorrow is a new day, and that you have a new chance to do better. Its all any of us can do, really.

May peace truly be with you, HHH.

If each day were your last, how would you spend it? We can't truly know when our last day is.

Would you worry about the experiences that you didn't have, or be thankful for the ones you shared?

There is a mindset in which people worry about the things they haven't done, and a lot of those people think that way while they are living, and it leads them toward very poor decisions, destructive decisions.

How would you live if you began and ended each day at peace?

This is the way of the Samurai... interestingly enough, it is also the way of PoJA. We can be the most attractive, smart, successful, funny, talented people... but if we do not consider our spouses, if we do not earnestly place importance on them, in all of our actions - then we fail our spouse. We fail our retainers.

Argh. Can't find Hagakure today...

Been nice reading it, reflecting, and reapplying. Kinda keeps me centered.

Been kinda spiraling since the 1st... NO NUKES, NO NUKES, NO NUKES!

It may be coming up on a year since this whole sh*&-storm started, 11 months since I was given a clue... but it's just 4 months of me knowing what actually happened.

I'm doing what I can to maintain balance; I don't want to shut FWW out, but when it's the same-ol-same-ol dragging me down, it just feels abusive to let her in, too.



Nevermind the face that you put on
In front of me
And nevermind the pain
You've put me ..through

Cause every little thing you say
And every little thing you do
It makes me doubt all of this

What are you waiting for?

Look what you did
Is this who you wanted me to be?
Well it's not me

Look what you did
Is this how you wanted it to be?
This life you gave away
Was meant for me

Forget about the trip that you've been on
Or so it seems
Nevermind the lies that you told, my tears

Cause every little thing you said
And every little thing you did
You made me doubt all of this

Is that what your waiting for?

Look what you did
Is this who you wanted me to be?
Well it's not me

Look what you did
Is this how you wanted it to be?
This life you gave away
Was meant for me
Was meant for me
Was meant for me
Yeah, Yeahhhhhh

Look what you did
Is this who you wanted me to be?
Well it's not me

Look what you did
Is this how you wanted it to be?
This life you gave away
Was meant for me

I don't know how I can face this pain
I'll keep it inside so you can't see
I don't think I can go on this way, 'cause it's not me

Short and simple; F$%K THIS WEEK!

By now, she had kissed him. By now, he had began groping her at work. Two days from now... yeah.

Had those bad thoughts this morning... the images were so vivid that if I could retell them, I think I could be a horror director.

This week, FML.

"Where some people see coincidence, I see providence..."


Got a stomach virus... down for the count at home....

The day could have been worse.


I'll take that for now...

HHH,

I haven't posted on MB for a long time, but I still do read every once in a while and following along on your thread, I felt I just had to post.

It gets better. Your wife seems to be doing everything she can to help you get through it and that is huge. In my sitch, my wife took almost 6 months to get through WD after NC had been established and it was probably another 3 months or so after that before I saw the real her again. Since then (it's been 2 years), she's been everything I could ask for as a wife and helping me heal. And even with my wife doing everything I could ask, I still have times where I trigger terribly. But those times are fewer and farther between and much shorter in duration.

Just wanted to say I know what you're going through and to keep your chin up. It does get better.

H4U.

Thanks! I got kinda neglectful and forgot to do exactly that; thank you for taking your time to post.

That is what I came here for; to hear from people who have been in a similar spot. It helps.

It reminds me of several people I have worked with over the years who looked at the struggles I had with school - but I kept at it, kept going, and after a lot of trial, error, failure, and success... I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. For those people, they found hope for themselves seeing someone in a similar (or worse) situation struggle... and then succeed. I've bumped into several who decided to better their own situations, and tell me that I inspired them. I don't take that credit - but it is flattering. I do encourage people to seek further education, and feel that I chose a field that not only is very needing in new professionals, but is also so widely applicable, that anyone can find something they would love to do within it.

This whole thing has become no different.

To me, whatever is in my transcript; I never failed. Every class I attended, I retained a lot. What's funny is the recall that has occurred throughout this process.

This event in my own life, and how it applies to my previous studies, and current studies, and how it will apply to future studies is a thing I have actually come to value. It's given me a new perspective to examine things from.

This article got me thinking about that;

http://www.cracked.com/article_18983_5-complaints-about-modern-life-that-are-statistically-b.s..html

Time for a break - there are days that being here just reminds me of why I'm here.

Time to forget for a while...

Just my opinion from my position; but the damage to an LB$ done by infidelity cannot be understated, especially while still in recovery.

I KNOW there is a constant drain, though it may not be quite as severe as it was 6 months ago.

Got lazy, got complacent... let UA time slide... and it lead to a lightening strike; "Today, I do not feel 'in love' with FWW."

A year ago, I don't know where that thought, that feeling, that statement would have led me. Sharing it with FWW felt like a mistake... she took it as a failure of some sort.

I told her that it wasn't a death-stroke, or the end of the world, that it was just a signal that we have not been meeting proper amounts of UA time - that it's not a fairy-tale, and that the feeling has to be rekindled.


I have my own part to own up to. I'll pop onto the computer for a minute, so she will watch TV... by starting a 1-hour show she has recorded. So, she starts a 1-hour program to entertain herself when I was going to spend 3 minutes dinking around.

My side of the street; 1) I need to state directly that I am only going to take a short amount of time with whatever it is I am doing, 2) I need to finish, and rather than submitting to her hour-long program, get back to UA time. Not do my own thing till she finishes her show.

... for Portishead.

Bristol's contribution to Hip Hop... or Trip Hop... is just so Haunting...

Q: HHH, what do these random, babbling posts of yours have to do with Marriage Building? What do they have to do with recovery?

A: Everything.

Infidelity has the wonderful effect of sucking the joy out of everything in your life. Food sucks, so you don't eat. Music only serves to depress you; even the stuff you once found joyful becomes torturous. Everything in your life all of a sudden looks completely different through the lens of betrayal.

So, sometimes I post up slip ups with MB principals, and sometimes I just post like I'm treating this thread as my personal blog.

Well, in a way, I am. I am sharing a return to some sort of "normality" - random thoughts and rambling, whatever. Every once and a while, the coaster feels like it's coming off the tracks, and I have to post a scream. What I hope to do is probably the same as a lot of people; just to give people a realistic vision of recovery, and hope.


Which makes it strange that I feel the following is a "side note;"

February 6th was 1 year since ILYBINILWY. In the next few days, I finally began to snoop; first text messages, then the phone record.

March 13th is 1 year NC.

I am still angry, I still hurt. I can eat, I can concentrate, I can look at my FWW in the eye... 99/100 times.

Yes, sometimes a foot wanders towards the threshold. If UA time is not met, it is easy to fall out of love due to the hemorrhage in my Love Bank.

Keep the car on the tracks....

HHH....I hear ya. And I know exactly what you're feeling.

You're one year post dday. You're much further along than I was. At one year post dday for me, I was still dealing with my W's withdrawl and was not able to deal with my own chit because I was doing everything I could to pull her back to the marriage.

Those feelings you're having right now are normal. It's the same process ALL us BS's have to get through. Some can process more quickly and for others it takes longer. In our recovery, we progressed by leaps and bounds in the 6-9 months after NC had been in place for a year (it was during this time frame I got that remorseful apology every BS is looking for).

Keep plugging away....You'll get there.

Well, I'm not quite sure where to "put" our recovery at this point.

1 year post Dday, almost 1 year since NC... but trickle truth persisted until the end of July.

I don't know. I really don't give the dates a ton of thought. I go more on my how I feel or how my thoughts permeate.

Today is a day where my GAD is busted. Bleh.

HHH, you don't know me or my story and I've only posted here a bit, but I wanted to give you a bit of encouragement. You are doing the right thing! In my experience, recovery is very much a 2 steps forward, 1.75 steps backward kind of thing. Your wife loves you and is remorseful and doing her work and I think that foundation and applying the MB principles will continue to work in your favor.

It's a long road. The hardest thing I ever did was give my dh a second chance. The best thing I ever did was give him that second chance. That doesn't mean there aren't still stays I want to stab him. But I know it was the right thing to do.

Hang in there!

Oh, I thought of something that sometimes works for me! When I am feeling like you are, I tell my dh that it is time for me to be Princess For A Day! Excessive pamering is needed. Sometimes it is a night out, sometimes a bedroom picnic, sometimes a weekend away, sometimes him doing all my chores so I can lay in bed and watch a whole season of Friends.

But what it gives is a BIG LB deposit. It helps get me ahead of the withdrawls created in the bank from memories. Sometimes you have to get away from the day-to-day and really focus on each other. See if you can get a big LB deposit and maybe it will jumpstart you again.

That is spot-on, I would say.

So, on Sunday I was at work goofing off, and was showing people what I've learned in Judo so far.

Yes, even in my 30's, I can be stupid as a 16-year-old.

Anyway, let's say that when you do a fall and mess up on a mat, that it stings. When you do a fall on regular flooring, and you mess up... it feels like you broke something.

I was sinking anyway, but then I had a sore shoulder to deal with... which sent FWW into caretaker mode. Typical guy, I downplay... but guess what it was?

Extra attention and pampering.

I'll be d@#$ed if I'm going to injure myself weekly to keep myself happy, though. >.<

�Life's real failure is when you do not realize how close you were to success when you gave up.�

This fits me so closely.


The first time I took my Anatomy and Physiology 1 course, I was so convinced that I had failed it, that I didn't even bother to show up for the last lab practical or the final.

After missing both of those critical tests (which resulted in a 0 score for both) I earned a "D" in the course.

Not an F, a D. With a 0 on large-weight tests.

I gave up long before I had lost.

I can say that moment is a defining one for myself. I knew then that the battle is never over, until it is over - and never a moment sooner.

Be too busy this weekend to post up, so I'll get it in now.

Sunday will be 1 year since NC - though I didn't get the full truth for another 5 months.

I feel like a whiner when I look at what this new crop of BH's are dealing with, and I'm sure there are some other BH's that can look at my story and feel the same.

In a way, it's one of the things that makes this a place to come to and breathe. It's too bad, but you look at some of the crap people are putting up with, and you go "Well, at least I don't have it that bad!"

It's madness, though. I haven't looked the other way, and went... "Well, if she had only had an 'EA,' it wouldn't be so bad."

We will compare up, but we won't compare down. Wonder why?

We don't want any of it.

We don't even want Jimmy Carter adultery. When you haven't faced real betrayal, his little quip seemed like an honest admission. I think, in a way, it still is. I can't lie, I have felt the pull - I have been offered the chance on several occasions throughout my marriage. Knowing that I could and totally would was the only thing that kept me from it.

Yes, at times I even WANTED to. Really really bad. Because of that, I protected myself more. I don't know what it's like to cross that line. I don't know what it's like to give in to selfishness, and thoughtlessness - I imagined it, though. I thought it all through from one wrong touch or phone call to playing the deception game - and it just wasn't me.

This past year sucked. It's been the most painful thing I have ever experienced, and I'm not through the storm yet. In fact, the end isn't too close to sight. OM may be long gone, but FWW still works with his sister. Whatever or whoever she is to the place of work, to FWW, all she is to me is a daily reminder of betrayal. In fact, I came to the conclusion some time ago, that this woman was a deciding and contributing factor to the mindset that lead FWW into her A.

First it was "sleepovers" every once and a while... girls night out and all. Then FWW and her decided to take mushrooms on one of the sleepovers... though FWW know I would totally not go for that. Then it was whatever friendly triangle they had going at work, OM's sister watching as her brother - who she admittedly knows is scum - weaved a web for an all-to-willing married woman.

Then there was the other married coworker that was always drooling about some other young "piece of meat" pretty brazenly. I'm quite sure her and FWW sat there at work exchanging tongue-wags about their respective crushes.

And FWW still works with these women every day. I hear their names, every day. I see the OM's sister at least once a week.

I doubt she'd ever pass a message, my worry isn't an NC hole - it's as simple as this; these people are irreparable triggers and it's getting worse rather than better.

Maybe I'm terrible. I don't worry about NC. I monitor the channels I can, but I don't worry because to some point... I just don't care.

Let it happen. I'd be done. I could walk and be over it. No more pain, no more anger. Just clean air and a chest that could finally draw some breathe.

No more crying through my 20 minute drive to school, no more crying on the whole drive home, no more wondering when I am going to be able to control it or not.

No more watching a movie, thinking it's great... then getting sucker punched when you realize the woman George Clooney has been having booty calls with all over the country... is married - and then she calls him the child, the fantasy...

No more looking at the faces of my children every day, dying inside, and not being able to tell them the truth.

I don't know... I'm trying to hold on.

Redid ENQ's today... FINALLY. Last ones were 8/31/10. This time my top 3 were; O&H, AD, AF - with CO and SF rounding out the top 5.

Strangely enough, FWW's ENQ echoed mine. It was like that the first time, too.

The hard part is that we are on completely different levels when it comes to conversation. Of course, a part of this is simply gender difference, but we also have different interests, different passions.

The only thing that I have changed is to just listen and allow her to talk.

She has always done that to me. I'm kind of an information sponge. The two things she tells me she fell in love with me for are my arrogance and my big...


So, when she gets curious about something science-ish, she picks my brain.

Needed that vent.

Off to bed.

HHH, you've given me words of support and encouragement along the way, and sometimes I feel like I can't really give a lot back, because I can never fully understand the depths of the pain a BS feels. But I want to say that to me, it sounds like you're doing a heckuva lot more than just "trying" to hold on. You've got your nails sunk deep in this whole recovery thing. You've got tenacity. You keep fighting, HHH! And in the midst of your fight, you've got enough in you to help others here on the boards...tenacity.

I don't know what to offer as far as the triggers you face from the women your FWW works with. I have learned that people - whether we've had infidelity affect us or not - should not be friends with anyone who is an enemy to our M. We already know the no friendship rule as it pertains to the opposite sex - I'm talking about the same gender friendship here. Have you talked to your W about how her continued association with these women makes you feel? Tried to POJA a solution? Because if that's making things worse for you, you have to let her know. Let's suppose my H decided he would come home, give everything he's got to recovery, would do MB, talk to the Harleys, the whole bit - but had one condition - he said my work environment was triggering him and he wanted me to quit my job?

I'd quit my job. It's just a job, after all. Economy be damned, I'd find a new one.

It's in the cards, just not for a while. I graduate in December then it's back to work.

I don't know who I help, or how much. I try. I'm rough, dry, and sometimes counter to a lot of things. I hope I do help, it's what I mean to do.

Thanks, WPG.

I do have my nails dug in. It just friggin hurts some times.

You KNOW this is poison to your Recovery, right?

What does your W think about continued contact with the OM sister??? Has she ever asked you how you felt about it?

Yes, yes I do. I definitely felt it the other day. On the occasions that she is working the same days as FWW I just try to be civil. OM's sister was not aware of the depth of what was going on until after I tried to expose to OM's GF and she got drug into it. That only exacerbated my strong dislike for OM's sister, and caused me to realize how involved she was in creating the conditions to make the A possible. She wasn't directly involved, she wasn't a lookout... but she laid out the blueprints.


She doesn't like going to work any more. Once I graduate and start working again, she is going to quit and go back to school.

They don't work together often, but my own contact with her sends me spinning, so I am planning on avoiding contact at all costs from here out.

When will you be done with school? Has your W made any efforts to find other employment?

I graduate in December.

OM's sister almost got an opportunity at another store, but that fell through.

No efforts for another job, we are counting days until she is done there. At this juncture, another job would/could be just as much of a strain on the M as the people she works with. She is a department supervisor, and has a schedule that maximizes our UA opportunities and FC time.

I'll have to talk to her to see how much strain it puts on her, though.

Either by evidence of my deteriorating condition, or by the fact she didn't take her E-reader to work on Monday, and she browsed the forums, FWW picked up the rope on this one.

We had a longer timeline for her leaving previously, one that would maximize her pay when she left. The plan is for me to work at a dialysis clinic, and then she is going to go back to school and not work.

She has shut out her coworkers for now, and I plan to avoid any future sight or sound of OM's sister until quittin time comes.


So, a little self-reflection on my withdrawal and propensity to give in to sacrifice.

Outwardly, it causes me to be guilty of at least 3 LBs;

1) Dishonesty (by omission)
2) Independent behavior - this is through trying to handle an issue that affects us both.
3) Disrespectful judgment - assuming that my own emotional state does not effect my FWW.

Work in progress...

Feel a little better that it was on her initiative and not yours?

Though my FWW quit her job w/OM the day of exposure, she kept in contact with two female co-workers. The co-workers did not enable the affair and, in all honesty, I have nothing against them as I seriously doubt they even knew of it. I just have everything against their employer and the POS that works there with them. Like your situation, it was a constant trigger for me and one that I expressed last month. She hesitated, validated my feelings but dismissed them and told the co-workers not to mention OM. Hmmm. Not good. I sank deeper.

Then 1.5-weeks ago when she committed to recovery, she voluntarily cut them off just to protect me. Wow. And, surprise surprise, it's helped me out not having that "what if they accidentally tell FWW about OM in conversation" in the back of my mind.

So that's why I ask if you feel a little better now. Hope so, and once you get the h out of that town you can finally get rid of these stupid triggers that we all have.

Yes, I agree with that. It does make me hesitate to complain when I read of all the mess that others are dealing with.


Tell you what, having been on the receiving end of my wife's PA in 2002 and the EA last year, there is no difference in how you feel. I actually feel like the EA was worse--there was more of a connection, and the "love" word was mentioned.


Up in the Air, or something like that? I freaking hated that movie for the trigger that it gave me. Dumb, huh?

Thanks for peeking in, North.


So, I'll preserve my little revelation here.

I have to admit, that Pre-A, I had come to hate my wife. Years of sacrifice and "waiting for things to get better" ultimately collapsed on me. It wasn't simply withdrawal... I hated her.

Divorce wasn't on the table, cheating wasn't something I could do - plenty of opportunities over the years, and a definite draw to, but that just caused me to protect myself around women. I was simply hanging on, trying to finish up school, thinking that once I improved the FS and work schedule sitations, things would naturally get better. However, I wanted very little to do with her in the meantime.

Her response to my withdrawal, when she entered conflict, was a text-book flurry of LB behaviors. She honestly didn't know how to get my attention, because it had always been given (at her convenience, of course).

It feels like the roller coaster changes the Romantic Love threshold, and not the LB$ balance. For her part, she doesn't really LB - she still watches the same TV shows that had taken all of her time before, but this is not done during time we could be spending together. Some of them that I enjoy at least somewhat, I will watch with her here and there.

Presently, I am either on a huge even keel (about a month) of the coaster, or the grieving process is over. I'm betting I'm done grieving.

However, I have to submit to the fact that her LB$ deficit with me is HUGE, and her choices really only drove that balance lower.

The result? 1 year in (or... 8 months with full disclosure) I'm simply not in love with my wife yet. She tells me, and behaves like, she is head-over-heels for me, which is good, but it kinda sucks that I am not really reciprocating right now.

So, I have to hold on to a few things; the same patience and drive that kept me holding on to a wife who I couldn't stand to be in the same room with, and the knowledge that just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean that it can't happen.

Truthfully, this is stronger than my original position; make the conditions best for me to leave (getting FWW driving, finish school so I could support my DD's properly).

It's a marathon...

I'll agree with the hate part as, looking back, I can say that I resented the hell out of my wife for a lot of things that she, honestly, didn't know even bothered me. And it went both ways, kind of funny how that works.

For some reason, the thought that my resentment and LB's would cause her to react negatively (affair) never crossed my mind. In my mind, she was the one that had to straighten up, not me, because I was right, she was wrong and the world is round. Period. Or so I thought.

Talk about neither one of us having empathy for the other. I'm not proud at all for any of it. And neither is she.

So we go foward from that and, as my thread reads, I'm kind of oscillating every two days on average. Today's an up day.


What could she do to change that?

What do you do when you have a mountain of debt?

Keep making payments, making big payments when you can.

She's doing it. It's just a massive deficit to overcome. The difference is, I'm not going anywhere.

I definitely was far from "right" for the 2 years prior to the A... though I was trying to fight it out a bit in 2009. However, I had stopped complaining, as all the years of complaint prior did no good anyway.

And, I definitely wasn't "right" to sacrifice as much as I did for as long as I did. I thought I was doing the "right thing" by my wife and children... heck, I toughed it out for 6 years before I imploded. I just never really planned on imploding.

Anything she could do or say to make a larger payment? Food for thought.

I, too, learned that sacrificing (being a martyr?) doesn't work in the end. Just makes the resentment worse and is somewhat self-fulfilling.

So...what do we all need, then? More patience?

I dunno, North. Martyr doesn't seem to fit. I didn't have a name for it until I came here. At the time, I didn't even view being the bottom of the pile as sacrifice, I viewed it as my station as a husband and father. It was what I was supposed to do.

You see, I was a teenager when my brother's first wife had her A. He explained to me that he had withdrawn after their first daughter was born because he had fallen from "the top of the pile." A first-time mother often has a child-centered universe. He withdrew pretty quickly, and his XW's boss was a predator; saw the opening, and made his move.

I took that mindset in when FWW and I got married; we have kids, I am not priority. Yes, it bothered me at times, but not being second to the children. It was when I was second to everything else. I justified it away, "She needs down-time, she's a mother and working..."

In my head, I was simply doing the right thing, and I made sure that I didn't neglect my wife. Tried to make the best I could of the time she "had left" for me, made sure to be affectionate, continued to do things like surprise her with gifts. My thinking was that not being satisfied with the scraps she gave me in return was nothing more than selfishness on my part.

I had no concept of a LB$, and really didn't think continuing on that way was any kind of detriment.

Every once in a while, conflict would raise it's head. When it came to AH and IB, those were not addressed well; AO and SD on my part. SF I approached gingerly, but not very often.

So, maybe there was suffering on my part, but I hadn't thought I was doing so willingly, and thought it just selfish and thankless on my part.


As far as bigger deposits; that's the focus of MB - to identify the most important emotional needs to make the biggest deposits. We did a ENQ review last month, and of course my needs had shifted since the last time. SF isn't even in my TOP 5 for now. It's mainly admiration and affection, and FWW works on those things (seemingly effortlessly).

I've got patience, and a FWW who is more than committed to making this work, so I don't really worry. Just kinda sucks that I allowed such a deficit to be created with complacency.

Current musical obsession; Baba Brinkman.

Won't post any, though. Rationalism is offensive to some.

Anyway, his TEDxTalks performance was awesome when relating evolutionary psychology.

Currently, however, I can't stop listening to Off That (The Rationalist Anthem).

It's all pseudo.

FWW's ringtone;



I don't wanna be the girl who laughs the loudest
Or the girl who never wants to be alone
I don't wanna be that call at four o'clock in the morning
'Cause I'm the only one you know in the world that won't be home

Aahh, the sun is blinding
I stayed up again
Oohh, I am finding
That's not the way I want my story to end

I'm safe
Up high
Nothing can touch me
But why do I feel this party's over?
No pain
Inside
You're my protection
But how do I feel this good sober?

I don't wanna be the girl who has to fill the silence...
The quiet scares me 'cause it screams the truth
Please don't tell me that we had that conversation
When I won't remember, save your breath, 'cause what's the use?

Aahh, the night is calling
And it whispers to me softly, "come and play"
Aahh, I am falling
And if I let myself go, I'm the only one to blame

I'm safe
Up high
Nothing can touch me
But why do I feel this party's over?
No pain
Inside
You're like perfection
But how do I feel this good sober?

I'm comin' down
Comin' down
Comin' down
Spinnin' round
Spinnin' round
Spinnin' round
Looking for myself.. Sober

Comin' down
Comin' down
Comin' down
Spinnin' round
Spinnin' round
Spinnin' round
Looking for myself.. Sober

When it's good, then it's good, it's so good, 'till it goes bad
Till you're trying to find the you that you once had
I have heard myself cry
Never again
Broken down in agony
And just trying to find a friend

I'm safe
Up high
Nothing can touch me
But why do I feel this party's over?
No pain
Inside
You're like perfection
But how do I feel this good sober?

I'm safe
Up high
Nothing can touch me
But why do I feel this party's over?
No pain
Inside
You're like perfection
But how do I feel this good sober?

How do I feel this good sober?

Fly out for LA on Sunday, then 3 days in Disneyland and California adventure with the wife n kids.

Identified an LB. Needed to work over the summer to keep the finances stable until I get my fall financial aid package. FWW kind of hen pecked it obsessively. Over and over and over. She did this before about school.

I told her tonight; I need you to stop. I love you, but if I need your help or guidance, I will ask for it. Talking about it for entire days is not pleasant.

...and how'd that go over?

Well, at first I started to get an explanation "Well, I just stress over these things, and..."

To which I just restated; "I have noticed that it destroys my love for you, and because of that it just needs to stop."

The answer was "OK."

We'll see. She hadn't really engaged too much in this since before my implosion in 2008...

Since you're normally one of the ones that thumps me on the head when I have a pity party on my thread, I just thought I'd ask if you both were satisfied (POJA) with the resolution of that conversation.

Of course, if we were all independently wealthy that would help

I'll bet you need a vacation now after your Disneyland vacation. Our oldest wants to go (D-World in FL) because a friend of his did. Maybe next summer we'll break down and do it.

Well, North, she is enthusiastic about not doing things that destroy her LB$ balance.

See, what she does isn't like a PoJA discussion - it's a verbal OCD spew. This is how she explains it. FWW is very detail and plan oriented, and I am not.

NOT a bad thing or incompatibility, but when she gets going, it's like a mother hen.

What it feels like on my side, is a disrespectful judgment - that she thinks I am incapable of finding solutions.

It's not that I don't want her input, or value it. It's not that once I have some solutions, that I am going to NOT PoJA them, I just need the time to gather my data before the PoJA process can begin.

What I am least happy with, is not realizing how much it was affecting me until I had been driven well into the red.

However, sometimes that is the way these things go. We don't know how something effects our LB$ until a significant hit is taken.

Performance. Feedback. Revision.

Wow, your wife sounds like me and you sound like my wife.

Food for thought, then?

No, no...I thought the same thing. "It's a vacation for the kids". We went last Oct and I LOVED it. We stayed right on the resort so didn't have to worry about transportation, etc., that probably helped. Y'all (you guys) will love it. We are probably going again next year.


HHH, have you told your W how you feel when she does that when you are trying to POJA? Also do you and your W spend enough UA time together? Something you posted somewhere had me wondering about that...

I have to admit that #1 - I have quite a bit of OCD myself and #2 - I have very little practice using POJA with H. Maybe practicing POJA on smaller decisions of lesser consequence will help to refine technique. And if you need time to gather data before you can begin to POJA, just tell your W that. Set a time to come back together later - you'll have your data, and maybe in the meantime she can go through her "OCD spew" and pull out only the pertinent bits to avoid LB-ing you. I must process like she does - I like to talk everything out...H on the other hand would generally go to his financial calculators, consumer reports, etc on a fact finding mission first.

Funny I just had a meeting at work and I wanted to have a brainstorming session, which I thought would give everyone ownership in what we were trying to do (well, what my boss told me I needed to make happen). I didn't want to come down and say "This is how we're doing it, end of story." In reality I had several at the meeting who didn't care what we did, just wanted to get out of the meeting; one who agreed happily (at least outwardly, lol) to my suggestions; and one who was freaking out that there would be changes. Maybe I can practice POJA at work, ha!

And Disney is a blast. H and I went a few years ago with my parents and the kids to FL. We stayed at the military resort (Shades of Green) on Disney property, which is a super deal. Had a wonderful time! I'd love to take the girls back before they get too old to believe in the Disney magic, you know?

I like WPG's idea of setting a time to discuss it. I used to be bad about picking at my H and what we finally discovered was that the things I picked about were things that were causing me worry, fear, anxiety etc. It bothered my H when I nagged him or talked about the issue incessantly, but it bothered me that the issue hadn't been resolved in a way that lessened my feelings of anxiety. Since your wife said that she stresses over things it may be that she has similar concerns. It's good that you are being honest that her picking about the issue bothers you, but are you considering her feelings in this?

It was a difficult issue for us because he felt the same way you do, that my picking or trying to be helpful was my way of saying that I didnt trust him to handle things. He didnt feel the need to plan things...I do. His version of a plan was to tell me he would "deal with it, handle it, fix it", which left me wondering...how? How is it going to be ok? I needed more concrete solutions to feel safe.

Without a plan I feel very afraid and insecure. Maybe it's OCD and maybe it's just that I am a worrier but I need a plan. And maybe Plan B and C for backups. By not discussing things with me he was leaving me with these feelings of anxiety and it was hurtful to the love I felt for him.

Now if an issue like that comes up we set a time that is not too far off, maybe a week away, that we sit down and discuss the issue. I dont pick at him during that week, and it gives him time to think and whatever he needs to do. At that time he gives me his ideas and I give him feedback, we PoJA a plan, and because I worry we PoJA a backup plan too. He then keeps me informed every step of the way as things happen so that I know what is going on and what steps he is taking to fix the problem, that way I don't have to pick and I don't feel anxious because I am informed. I know what he is doing to handle the issue. That builds my trust in him, because I can see that he is working on fixing it and I dont have to take it on blind faith that he is doing something about it.

I'm glad that your wife is enthusiastic about avoiding things that hurt your feelings for her, but dont be so quick to brush off her explanation as an excuse. It could be that she was trying to tell you that her picking is a way of trying to get something from you that she is not getting. She may be handling it in the wrong way but that doesnt make the concern any less valid for her. When she said she stresses about things and that's why she picks at you, could you have responded with "The picking hurts my love for you, how can I help you to feel less stressed in some other way?"

I would have agreed to not nagging my H because it bothered him, but if he had not worked with me to find a way to handle my concerns in a more positive way my love for him would still have been slipping away each time my feelings of worry and concern did not get addressed.

You've been very helpful to me so I just wanted to add in my experiences in case it might be helpful. Could be that your wife doesnt feel the way I do at all, but it might be worth asking her about just in case.

Yeah, ladies. You have it pegged. For instance; packing and prepping for the trip, FWW has a written checklist for everything. For her, it helps her organize. I am more of a mental planner.

It is a stress/worry/anxiety thing for her, and how she handles and processes those emotions. It's not that I don't keep her in the loop, it's that she gets stuck in the loop.

We talked about it today, and she said that she wants to work on it, because when other people do the same thing to her, it bothers her as well.

As of this week, the work issue is resolved. It was/is a difficult issue because I needed to have schedule flexibility for school in June and July. At the end of August, new financial aid comes in, then I graduate in December.

I don't care for my schedule, but it helps that it is temporary.

Sounds good, HHH.

I noticed you didn't answer the Q about UA time.

POJA has been the hardest policy for us to implement. When we don't get enough UA time in and some tension starts to build between us, forget it...

In fact, this just happened to us last night, I tried to talk to him about something that was bothering me and it didn't get too far. After our date, I discussed it with him again and the conversation went much better. UA time(especially when it is OUTSIDE of the house) works like magic for us, seriously.

ps ~ great news on the light at the end of the tunnel for your schooling. I believe my H went to school for the same thing you are now and I know how stressful it is.

UA time has room for improvement. Usually do good.

It's fallen by the wayside due to my little job search and our upcoming vacation.

Sometimes UA time needs to be used for heavy lifting.. Marriage processing. If there is not enough UA time, I feel the pressure build, but when we get UA time I want it all to be wondeful. You know, a date with no children talk, marriage talk... heavy talk.

That's why you need 35 hours. A Marriage partnership needs some of those hours for parenting, resolving, planning etc. SO nothing is left on the back burner.
And plenty left over UA time just for FUN and Romantic Love.

New mantra.

Performance; Identifying and eliminating Love Busters. Identifying and meeting emotional needs.

Feedback; "I love it when..." "I'd love it if..."

Revision; eliminate newly identified Love Busters, meet emotional needs in the fashion identified, in descending order of importance.

Performance. Feedback. Revision.

Perfect! I'll tell you where the loop broke down in our pre-A M: feedback. H and I were performing left and right - performing LBs, hit-and-miss EN meeting...and then no feedback. From either of us.

My feedback was lousy - "I'm not happy." Waa waa...whine, nag, b*tch, moan. Absolutely no direction provided and complete vagueness on my part. H's feedback to me was completely nonexistent. I'd do something to annoy him and he'd shut down and escape to the garage to avoid me. Would we have done better if we'd known about MB and understood the concept of the LB$?

Actually, wrong question. If we'd known then about MB and the concept of the LB$, would we have implemented it successfully? Would both of us have desired to implement it?

He provided feedback during the first 4 months we tried to recover. I learned that he hated hearing me vent about work, for example. When I learned things that were LBs, I worked at eliminating them. H shut down again when he learned I'd been lying to him - I can't and don't blame him for that - but then feedback became nonexistent again and I struggled with trying to find the right, or best, ways to meet his ENs.

And I also became lousy at giving feedback once again, because of fear.

But feedback is the key...it's like never having a "performance review" at work. You're doing your job, going along and no one ever really says a lot to you, or gives you vague instructions and you do the best you can. Then all of a sudden, you're called into the boss's office and fired. "What did I do?" you cry. "You suck at doing your job," is the response. Conversely, if you have regular performance assessments, it helps you to refine your job skills and improve performance.

It takes desire and willingness from both parties, and a committment to being O&H, respectfully and without fear.

That's a lot of what I have to work on.

Big time case of "nice guy" syndrome, and in the process, a total lack of O&H in that process.

Doesn't work.

I have been struggling with the "nice guy" syndrome too.

Men ought to "take the hit" sometimes. IMO. Just accept her anger. Its different than a man's. Its a double standard, yeah! Damn right. But our angry must be different than hers. And there is so much that a man "just won't or shouldn't bother to say."

That being said, I feel its too easy to fall into that way of being too much. And the "nice guy" thing turns into doormat and turns into a pent up disgruntled unhappiness.

Gotta find your N.U.T.S and have backbone sometimes (avoid AO) but stand up! Its more attractive than doormat "nice guy"

Lots of talk on the No Gurls thread about "Nice Guy" syndrome.

You noticed?

It's one of the things I continue to struggle with. Starting simply with O&H seems like the easiest approach... but, I struggle when I think honesty might lead to an LB, or be unpleasant.

Interesting advice, but not MarriageBuilders advice. The MarriageBuilders point of view is simple: angry outbursts are emotional abuse. Period. They can also easily become physical abuse; someone who is acting out angrily is temporarily INSANE. You should remove yourself immediately from the situation in order to preserve Love Bank balances and yourself from injury.

This one hit me pretty hard today.

While many a musician has put to page and then song struggles of life and death, only a handful have put down their own definite struggle while they were on the losing end.

The second verse was written and performed by Anthony Ian Berkeley, who performed as Grym Reaper in the group Gravediggaz, and also as Poetic and/or Too Poetic. The verse is about discovering his liver and colon cancer, which took his life in 2001 at the age of 36.

[video:youtube][/video]

Did not wanna T/J Dad any more, so I'll do this in my own thread.


Thank you, Pep.

Kind of a "duh" moment here. In the weeks following ILYBINILWY I actually wrote FWW a letter every single day, and stashed it away in her pack of cigarettes for her to find later in the day. Since she quit smoking... that strategy won't work!

>.<

The biggest struggle is that I am sooooo past those angry meltdowns. And not just because of the LB$ withdrawals, but because the whole thing is just NOT who I am, not who I ever was, and not who I want to be.

I'm not afraid of telling her I hurt, or that I'm angry, I'm afraid of her digging... because they "why" of it all is so much harder.


No, letting it out is it. Setting it aside I have mastered to a fault.

It's been a rough week.

Disneyland was awesome for the kids, and I enjoyed watching them ooh and ah - DD13 was terrified of the big coaster at California Adventure, and I took her on it. She went from terror to "THIS IS AWESOME!!!!" midway through the first big drop - and the loop went by without notice.

But, I just wasn't in a place where running 8 hours a day with the kids and grandparents, and having absolutely no time with FWW was any good for me.

Then, I got off the plane and had to go straight back to work on Thursday and Friday night. Saturday morning we went yard-saleing, and got new tires for FWW's car. We were going to go have dinner and a movie, but then I got a bad stomach flu, and was down for 2 1/2 days, then back to work.

I'm in a low, crappy place and it's bleeding into my dreams... bad bad juju.

Ack.

...keep going.

I hate to hear this, HHH. It sounds like your energy is running pretty low right now. Can you pick a fun, easy activity that might help?

Working on that for Saturday and Sunday. "Date night" has been missing for a while, so need to get back at it.

Just chatting .....
I love Disneyland.
I went to Disneyland for the first time a few months after opening day 1955.
I was 6 years old.
Families wore their "Sunday best" when they went to Disneyland.
There were no huge crowds.
There were ticket books to go on rides.
The famous "E Ticket" was to get on the best rides.
I still have a half used ticket book .... somewhere.


Yes, I be old as dirt.

I thought I'd died and gone to heaven.
I wanted to live at Disneyland.
I was convinced the employees lived upstairs in the buildings on Main Street.

Your children will cherish those D-Land memories.
I know I do.

PS:
We would have gone to D-Land on opening day (July 18), except my brother had the audacity to be born July 13.

You mean they don't??

Me too HHH.

Me too Pep!!! We went to WDW last October and it was just incredible. I was not expecting to be just as excited as the kids by some of the newer rides like Soarin' and Toy Story, etc.

Anyway, HHH, sorry to hear it wasn't that great of an experience for you... Great suggestion by mb. Fun UA time always helps me through the rough patches. hang in there

Perhaps I'm stuck on the fact that I'm not a master at "letting it out" myself, so it carries some negative connotations for me - I'm certainly better at avoiding AO's w/H these days, but considering that I see him, oh, maybe 4 hours or so a week I don't have time to LB him! And when H would "let it out" with me, well, sometimes I'd get heartfelt letters that, while difficult to read, helped me to better understand his pain (I like Pep's letter idea)...other times I'd get those angry texts or emails that kinda remind me of where MikeSmile over on SAA is at with his WW. I don't blame H for his meltdowns, and they were infrequent, but they still terrified me. It was like I never really knew what H I was going to get at the other end of that text or email, or at the end of the day coming home. Still don't, really.

I was always a pro at putting things in "boxes." Maybe it is an ability to compartmentalize? Whatever it was, I tended to put things away and attempt to banish them to the dusty back corners of my mind. Problem was they would pop up again and again. For example, when H and I struggled to get pregnant with DD#1, I mourned the abortion I'd had 7 years earlier. I'd never mourned for the baby and I had dreams constantly while we tried to conceive about a child (always a little boy) trying to come in the house and I was pushing him out, holding the door closed. I felt like my inability to get pregnant was God's punishment. I don't think I ever opened up to H about it then, either. Eventually we got pregnant and I put all that back in the box again.

Anyway, that was a path around my elbow....but I'm in a different spot than you are, HHH, and you have someone you can let things out to, and from all you have posted about your FWW she is more than willing to crawl into the fire and hold on to you tight.

And do please go get some UA time with your W!!! Disney's a blast, but ITA, NO UA time (H and I had to sneak a little UA time in the bathroom )!!!

This was my 3rd trip! >.<

It seems like, even besides the growth going on, each time we discover something new.

I went when I was 12, then we went 6 years ago. We want to do Disneyworld in another year or two.

I've got a cute little picture; DD13 tripped and fell on Tom Sawywer's island and got some road rash. I have pictures of her with the Disney RN's.

I worry about the day that I just want to burn alone...


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway... we were loading up an MP3 CD for FWW last night, listening as we went along, singing along to some songs, singing to each other.

If it isn't obvious, music is HUGE to me, as it is to her.

But... we came across this one and it just KILLED me, and it was all I could do to not implode into the fetal position;



They drank their anniversary glass
A silent moment passed
Then they kissed
She knows there's something on his mind
He'll tell her in due time
What it is

He says "I've never built
Your mansion on a hill
Or warmed you in the Spanish sun
I simply blink my eye
And think as years fly by
Of all the things we've never done"

She smiles and takes his hand in hers
And says "It just occured
To me now
The thought that brings you such regret
What hasn't happened yet
It makes me proud..."

"You never walked away
When I needed you to stay
Or made me feel I'm not the one
There've been no broken vows
And there reason we're here now
Is all the things we've never done"

"We've never grown apart
You never broke my heart
With secrets that you've kept me from
We've never been untrue
And I'm still here with you
Through all the things we've never done"

Beautiful, painful song....That brought tears.

Music is also very important to my FWH. He loads up the MP3 player so we can listen to them in the car whilst taking a drive. Sometimes one of those songs is a deep trigger for me, and I have to immediately turn it off. One of those songs is "We have Tonight." It immediately reminded of the affair and I asked him to remove the song first chance, which he did as soon as we got home. Others, too. Ugh. Sometimes I like to stick with just instrumentals. Safer....

I have pretty much an entire artist ban. I don't want to hear any Akon or T-Pain (to a large degree). Just the STYLE of music reminds me that sniveling, chicken$#!+, POSOM is still allowed to consume oxygen.

Why? Because I investigated what his ringtone was.

Yeah sometimes there is so much stuff that I wish I could unknow:
I can't listen to Prodigy cos he took her to a concert and WW3 followed.
Chemical Brothers and for a long while Faithless were off the menu, but I had to get over that one cos Faithless are brilliant but I know there are several tracks I have to skip over.

Why did you investigate the ringtone!! Lol the things we need to know!

I am currently re claiming music, making our own memories but just sometimes one comes on with the sort of words that are a real sucker punch, so breathe in and out, it's just a song!!

WW3 meant world war three not wandering wife 3!!

Bah.

In an absolutely fecal mood today. Just an overwhelming physical depression.



You're My World
The Shelter From The Rain
You're The Pills
That Take Away My Pain
You're The Light
That Helps Me Find My Way
You're The Words
When I Have Nothing To Say

And In This World
Where Nothing Else Is True
Here I am
Still Tangled Up In You
I'm Still Tangled Up In You
Still Tangled Up In You

You're The Fire
That Warms Me When I'm Cold
You're The Hand
I Have To Hold As I Grow Old
You're The Shore
When I am Lost At Sea
You're The Only Thing
That I Like About Me

And In This World
Where Nothing Else Is True
Here I am
Still Tangled Up In You
I'm Still Tangled Up In You

How Long Has It Been
Since This Storyline Began
And I Hope It Never Ends
And Goes Like This Forever

In This World
Where Nothing Else Is True
Here I am
Still Tangled Up In You
Tangled Up In You
I'm Still Tangled Up In You
Still Tangled Up In You

Sorry to hear about the fecal matter.

Anything in particular or just one of those days?

One of those days, I think.

I've dealt with transient episodes of depression my entire life.

I'm sorry to hear you are having a crappy day, HHH. Is there anything your W can do to help? I can't speak for her, but as for me, know I'd love the chance to try and help my H if he told me that he was having a rough day. And I am pretty confident she is the type of woman who will stand in the flames she created with you.

I took a step... be it a tad dodgy.

Out shopping, I sighed loudly, she asked if I was tired, I said I was massively depressed.

Step 1.

x2

I'm curious as to if I triggered it myself studying this morning... Dunno.

*I sent* a short simple text today;

I am not in love, I have not reached forgiveness...

But, you are my best friend, and my favorite playmate

And then a link;



When I am down and, oh my soul, so weary;
When troubles come and my heart burdened be;
Then, I am still and wait here in the silence,
Until you come and sit awhile with me.

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up... To more than I can be.

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up... To more than I can be.

There is no life - no life without its hunger;
Each restless heart beats so imperfectly;
But when you come and I am filled with wonder,
Sometimes, I think I glimpse eternity.

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up... To more than I can be.

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up... To more than I can be.

You raise me up... To more than I can be.

She read the link, couldn't load it from SMS. Missed the text entirely!

We talked about it.

It was a decent conversation. I got a short answer at first, but saw there was more, and dug.

I told her that she needs to be open, she needs to be honest. She wants me to be open and honest, she has to do the same.

She stated that she feels like she has to be "strong" for me.

I repeated, no, you need to be honest.

She started a bit of a pity-party; doesn't feel she "deserves" my comfort when she is in pain, because she caused it all.

I told her; wherever I am right now, I am DONE beating you up about it, and you should be, too. You took a crap, and now it's time to deal with the stink. Where I am now is rebuilding, and making sure nothing even remotely close to this ever happens again.

I could have said the same thing your W did. I think you told her exactly the right thing - you reassured her that you were done making her "pay" for her A and that you were committed to rebuilding the M better, stronger (faster - no wait, scratch that last one, that's from the "Six Million Dollar Man")

I'm seriously thinking about an O&H journal. There's so much that goes on either IRL or in my head every day that I want to tell H, and sometimes either I don't get the opportunity or I back down b/c of my tendency to walk on eggshells (and not seek comfort b/c I feel like I don't "deserve" it). I need to practice not editing myself and learning how to state things in a gentle and neutral manner so they don't end up being LB's. Writing is a "safe" outlet for me to do that - I haven't mastered the art of being able to deliver the "I feel" statements verbally in the heat of the moment, and I am afraid of my H's reaction sometimes - but if we can manage to write back and forth - which we did for some time while we were both engaged in R - we do better at addressing each other's thoughts and needs, I think b/c it gives us both time to pause and reflect.

I think I speak for the majority of W's when I say that we want our H's to protect us (and our children), to comfort us when we hurt, to be the shoulder we lean on. I can completely understand, and fall victim to, the sentiment that what we did (as WW's) invalidates that. I wasn't O&H about my needs in my pre-A M; I didn't tell my H these things - that I needed his comfort, that many times I just wanted to be close to him just so I'd feel safe and accepted.

Anyway, from your posts, I've always felt like NGB and me were very similar in a lot of ways so I'd hazard a guess we feel a lot of the same things and struggle with the same issues.

I had some paperwork to run to DSHS, and then I went to meet FWW at work for her lunch.

Before I left, I got clean and shaved (bald head with full beard... I'm dead sexy).

I sat in front of her department waiting for her lunch (I was early), watching threads on MB on my Windows phone...

We went out to the car after she clocked out, and I set my sunglasses on the dashboard...

I gently held her face in one hand and looked into her eyes, and had a moment of silence...

... and I said "I forgive you."

I have had a small surge of activity off of my thread, sharing things I have found from different places. I've been searching. I've been searching for those switches, that little bit of knowledge or wisdom to get me over this last little hump... that nudge that will line up head with heart.

Found it by analyzing and synthesizing various information from various sources and disciplines.

Part of it was also rebuilding myself (thus, the Men's Recovery Thread). I had invested my entire sense of self-worth into my marriage, into my wife.

This is no longer so... but I still have a long way to go. Another part of that is reflected in the "A Gift for Recovery" thread.

I have to learn to be vulnerable. I have to learn to say "Thank you." I have to learn to accept my strengths, accept compliments... admiration.

I was told by one of my nursing professors that I was an "unpredictable outlier." I routinely scored top of class... and had I been honest with my instructors, they would know I did so with only the benefit of lecture. I wasted over $1000 on books which I never opened.

I went and talked to this instructor recently, and told her that I know what I am going to do now. I have to wait for an opening in the bridge program to go from LPN to RN, but I'm not stopping. I have begun researching my options for a DNP program, and FWW and I have been working on how that will play out. It's some time out, but she's excited. My instructor? Jumping for joy.

It's time to start moving from this phase and on to the next.



You can't quit until you try
You can't live until you die
You can't learn to tell the truth
Until you learn to lie

You can't breathe until you choke
You gotta laugh when you're the joke
There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive

Just open your eyes
Just open your eyes
And see that life is beautiful.
Will you swear on your life,
That no one will cry at my funeral?

I know some things that you don't
I've done things that you won't
There's nothing like a trail of blood to find your way back home

I was waiting for my hearse
What came next was so much worse
It took a funeral to make me feel alive

Just open your eyes
Just open your eyes
And see that life is beautiful.
Will you swear on your life,
That no one will cry at my funeral?

Alive...
Just open your eyes
Just open your eyes
And see that life is beautiful.
Will you swear on your life,
That no one will cry at my funeral?

Just open your eyes
Just open your eyes
And see that life is beautiful.
Will you swear on your life,
That no one will cry at my funeral?

Just open your eyes
Just open your eyes
And see that life is beautiful.
Will you swear on your life,
That no one will cry at my funeral?

Beautiful.


There is a term in AA recovery Mr Pep uses frequently.

.... and that's what has happened here.


Congratulations.
It's a big deal.

Beautiful! I am thrilled for you & NGB - this is huge!

PS - made me cry again!

Agreed - this is huge. Congratulations on this milestone!

Lol.

I just realized I rambled and never directly stated the point I was trying to get to with the whole bit about accepting compliments, and accepting my strengths...

I R smart.

I hate to even say it. Makes me feel like an [censored]. I love to prove it... to myself.

I hid my test scores from my classmates.

Makes me feel like a freak. And saying it out loud makes me feel like an arrogant jerk.

And yet, I've been told over, and over, and over... my entire life. By everyone.

And I still don't like saying it. It doesn't feel like a "fact" it feels like a claim.

I've got no paper proof (other than a pair of 2 year degrees).

However, it's one of the things I found out there searching... I know that I'm an outlier, I know that I catch on to things insanely quick, and I know that I conceptualize, analyze, and synthesize information easily.

And that crushing, transient depression goes along with those skills, with those strengths...

Bollocks...

Dumb, dumb dumb dumb.

Dumb, dumb dumb dumb... duuuuuuuuuuh!

Well, I was gonna congratulate you about today until I saw this post. What's up?

HHH, what's this? Should we be concerned?

I'm good. Great even ladies. I was being silly because I was facing accepting a lifetime of praise... And shirted my wiring momentarily. Off to chill with W. G'night!

.....and to a better morning, Trip, than you have felt internally, in years!

Glad to hear of your step forward.

Next year, I'd like the story on how you settled on that nickname for me there, NG!




W and I are headed up to the lake tonight. Roast some hotdogs and sit around. No TV, no kids, no computers. no cell service. Just wind, water, and the stars.

mmmmmmmmm
I smell romance.

HHH

You have such a hungry mind.

Once you and Mrs HHH are a little further down the recovery road, and MB tools are like second nature, you might want to challenge your mind with a very different sort of book.

It's written in a very didactic style. Pretty dry, considering the title!
Not "user friendly" like the Harley library.
I warn you about this because it's not a book entirely intended for lay people.

Thanks, Pep!

Nope! That's the marshmallows burning!

Did you go back to the KOA Cabin and relive the experience?

The lunar cycle and tides did not match up for such an experience.

Alas, we were in the woods and she became a werewolf, and we could not revisit that moment on this particular trip.

We had a nice time, and some hard talk.

And while it may have seemed "unpleasant," sometimes you let things heal over, and they are only festering and spidering out below the surface.

We both still have some H&O work to do. I am seriously pursuing my own vulnerability.

Don't push it.
This "V word" is a developing thing.

What I know:

I only became vulnerable after I became strong.
After I recognized my own strength.
After I knew that if H ever became wayward again (or started drinking again) I have the strength and the where-with-all to leave him standing alone in his own dark place.

Vulnerability to love and be loved.
Strength to walk away when I need to

I hope this helps..

I work with her every day. I have spent a lot of time talking to her. We talk about our families, and our likes and dislikes. I can talk politics with her; she is rational and prudent.

Its not quite an infatuation, but I am very fond of her.

One day, I saw her in the halls, and I was overcome with joy. I admit, I just gave in and hugged her.

Then, gently, she kissed me on the ear.


No! I was dumbstruck. "I don't know what my wife will think about this!"

"Oh, she don't have to know, honey."

I had to tell NGB.

I told her everything. Her expression shocked me. It was amusement. As if she had been expecting this.

"Oh yeah?" She asked... Almost jokingly. I was floored.

"Which little old lady was it?"

... Gotcha!

Whew. I needed that. Just over one year from full disclosure. Our M? Yes, its better than it ever was. But, just like a lot of betrayed spouses, I have my days where I wonder if that's enough, or if it is too little, too late.


As Pep warned me, some days I don't trust it. Some days, it takes some strength to go home.

Still working on letting her know when I spiral, but want to make sure its not a flame out. That is one thing I can't stand that has changed about me. I am used to mood swings and depression, as its something I have always dealt with what I am not used to is having something to be angry about.

Yep, you did!

Me?

Sorry, Pep.

You have to be either older or crazier to live where I work.


Heck, yer a WHOLE DECADE younger than my dad!

So its been a year, huh?
Stay strong

Stretch,

If it helps you at all, I will tell you this; my strength no longer comes from my heart. FWW murdered that strength with her infidelity and lies.

My strength comes from my mind now. My willingness to learn.

For others, that isn't enough. For those people, the best thing they can do is to seek strength of spirit through their faith.

In a sense, I am doing the same, but my faith centers on science and rationalism. That isn't always easy, as science grows and changes with closer study, and texts of faith forever remain the same.

HHH-

My SAA thread has a run of religious based posts where a lot of our colleagues stress that their faith in God has helped them thru the pain of being on either side of the adultery fence.

At a certain point you realize that what a philandering spouse is doing (no less, thinking) is not rational in any way. To risk losing their family for some clandestine tookie is a mental sickness they have. They must know it will end poorly at some point but still engage in the A. Not rational thought.

I said to my wife at one point did she think this would go on forever? She said they werent thinking at all.

So, finding strength in the something like faith in God makes sense. Looking for a scientific rational reason for infidelity may not be possible.

Maybe some can take comfort in "the Lord works in mysterious ways", on some days I can take this comfort and on others, not so much.

On the contrary, there are plenty of scientific and rational reasons for the driving forces behind infidelity.

Where there is not an explanation of any kind, is how one makes the choice to commit an act they know is wrong and destructive.

"I know this is wrong, but..."

Filling in that "but" is the purpose of fog talk.

... to envy the the new guy that got to beat the piss out of his OM?

To want to thank the guy?


Seriously, more beatdowns would make these ratbags think twice (all apologies to our reformed ratbags).

YES.

I did enjoy reading that. I must say.

You know, that could be a great idea for a new line of Hallmark cards. ..

Just had to say, HHH, that in my lurkdom over the last week, you were thisclose to getting me out of hiding with that thread title. I was like, "WHAAA......??????"

No woman who is not an octogenarian has hugging privileges with me!

I won't get caught up otherwise. I have known for a long time that I am vulnerable to other women, and so I have always kept my boundaries firm; limited interaction, no extended forms of contact. On the few occasions (involving FB, myspace) that I have allowed any other woman access, being messaged, emailed, or IM'd just creeped me out... *shudder*

My joke? I've learned to live with FWW's quirks, and have no interest in having to do that over again!


I have written up EP's. Now, for anyone who HASN'T done this, let me tell you why it is great. By writing this all out, and filing it in our "marriage binder," I have more certainty that my expectations are clear and concise, and that there is little to no "wiggle room" for violating those expectations.

HHH -

When you mentioned you had written up EPs, I thought you were talking about your own. However, what you posted are EPs for your FWW.

Did she not write up her own? If she did, why is that not the basis for this "contract" that you posted?

The EPs you listed are quite valid, I have no issue with those. My feeling, though, is that it's a more honest admission and agreement if it comes from your FWW (POJA'd, of course, with you) than if it is written more as a mandate/ultimatum from you. (Although, again, I understand that.)

Dunno, maybe it's just my own quirk coloring my take on it.

Up until this was prepared, EP's were largely verbal - so I took the initiative to get it written out.

She has reviewed it, and what is written is what she has lived per her input.

Again, I typed it up for myself so that the expectations are clear.

It is awful dry, harsh in some places. Yet, that is the reality of it; I'm not doing this again, and if it even begins to approach what happened before... nope. Not gonna do it.

Clear and concise.

DH and I had a conversation about something like this earlier tonight. In a nutshell, it was about avoiding justifications I could use for future infidelity.

That's one concern I felt over the EP contract you posted, HHH. It strikes me as something a WW could use as justification or to build resentment.

A second concern is that, no matter how true it is, I wonder if it would be a lovebuster for her. I wonder, particularly with time and distance from the trauma and accompanying remorse, if your W will read this letter at some point in the future and be more likely to harbor feelings of ill-will over it/its wording.

To reiterate, I certainly see where you're coming from, and don't deny the rationale nor the impetus for such a contract. My DH would be right there with you, should I get it in my head that a repeat of the summer of 2008 would be a good idea. And I absolutely agree with that stance.

Again, I don't know. It could just be me.

Trip, I spent no time writing contracts, ad nauseum.

(I related this story before so skip it if it's tedious.)

I said to her once, "I have loved you from the moment we met, I love you today, and I will love you until I die, unless you ask me to stop."

She smiled and asked, "How could I ever ask you that?"

There was an obvious pause, and without smiling, I answered. "There is only one way."

The point is that all the wherefores, and aforementioneds, etc in your contract have no weight without the understanding of the enormity of the result of her breaking them. And if that result is unerringly understood, all those words and clauses are superfluous, anyway.

There are no "Pause", or "Replay" buttons on her game-controller from here on out.

This is a key thing going on here.

I found the strength to walk away 2 weeks after D-day.

I am looking for the strength to stay.

Part of finding that is knowing that my terms are clear. So, along with EP's, the terms were explained. I can be flexible on a great many things; where we will live, if she works or not, if she wishes to go to school, parenting choices, home decor, etc.


So, what I have done, is to clearly define the things which things I perceive as infidelity, or a threat to infidelity, some EP actions which have not taken place (post-nup), and described what divorce under the condition of adultery will look like.

With this, the hope is to never discuss any of it again.

Should I make the poor decision to be an abusive or negligent husband, this will no doubt be a source of resentment or justification. However, should she become wayward again, the air I breathe will be cause for resentment, the manner in which I breath it will be justification.


I know it seems late in the game for this business, but I'm sick of this invisible wall in y heart blocking out this woman who has become my best friend, a better lover than she has ever been, my favorite companion, and mother to my children. I want to FALL IN LOVE with her , and to do that I need to remove my roadblocks.

Make more sense?

Abuse or neglect. That's the sum.

When it comes to abuse, that is my largest struggle with those down or trigger days. Like tonight. Up after midnight because I'm wound up and can't sleep. When I tell her, she just wants to know how to "fix it," and I don't have an answer for that.

It reminds me of my band teacher in middle school, and one day during Veteran's Day they mentioned Vietnam. They were just mentioning how horrible the war experience was, and the look of shear pain on our goofy, joking band teacher's face... the way all the joy dropped right out of him.

I have only an infantile understanding of that now, and even that scant amount sucks.


She used pretty much anything and everything she could grasp out of the air as justification, resented everything she could to carry this on.

I'll not fear that again. It destroyed me when I heard that fogbabble. DESTROYED me. My wife, my marriage was the one thing in life I felt I hadn't failed at. Whoever that person was no longer exists.


Would it for you? How so?

I'm sure that she could do the same with a post-nup. Gonna happen anyway. I swallowed my pride through 8 years of emotional neglect. She had my unconditional love, undying devotion, and my foolish trust. All that was tossed away for a dirty little fling with a d-bag mamma's boy who couldn't even own up when he got caught with is hand in the cookie jar.

Was it a mistake? Yes and no. It wasn't a single mistake, it was a series of mistakes made through naivety and arrogance.

Do forgive the past transgression? Yes. However, there are reasonable steps to be taken to protect from future transgression.


While I added a date and sig line, it is not a contract. The stance was almost... hmmm... managerial when writing. Besides, contracts aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

She has reviewed it, and has stated no objections - though, I am trusting that she is being honest and not accommodating.


I don't think it's just you.

Again, I have but a single hurdle to clear, and it is proving difficult.

Truth of the matter is, the 'ol LB$ was pretty dry already when it was shattered. I want to plug the dang leaks. I want things to start to match up.

Getting nutty.

Probably because wedding anniversary is this month.

Not looking forward to it.


Need a mental health MB vacation.


Soldier on...

...wedding anniversary is this month. Not looking forward to it.

When the Titanic hit the iceberg, the sea was calm, and the air temperature was moderate. Most of the hundreds of people who died did so from the effects of immersion in the frigid Atlantic because there was insufficient room in the too-few lifeboats. The ship took over an hour to sink. Four hours later, rescue vessels started arriving.

In an hour, how many crude rafts of wooden deck chairs, dining room tables, wooden panelling, etc, tied together with lashings of ripped sheets and other line, could have been fashioned, enough to keep four or five people from immersion for those four hours? Ten? Fifty? One hundred? So several hundred people died needlessly because no one did what could have been done.

(Is there a point to this, NG?)

Trip, you can materially blunt the effect of the recurring discomfort of a wedding anniversary from an ultimately "flawed" marriage. I did, and, even ignoring the analgesic effect on the BS's psyche, the renewal ceremony stands by itself as a beacon of commitment to going forward.

Think about it.

Thanks NG.

I'm not there... yet.

Have to dial down forum interaction. It costs mental and emotional currency I can't afford to spend at this time. Heck, it costs time I don't have to spend.

Luckily, my current job is laid back, and NGB has been hanging out with me between patient calls on my light nights.

This will change after the new year, and I will be seeking a weekend double position, which will give me 5 days off each week.

Things should be prepped to apply for my bridge program next fall - then after that we will be looking to relocate closer to the MHPNP program I am interested in - as well as several other institutions with varying ARNP programs.

Erp!

Add to the list; NGB will begin joining me in Judo next week!

Should be a blast! She's excited.

Finding recreational activities to pursue together is a great idea! We picked choir... but they moved rehearsals from Sunday night to Thursday nights, and I think we need to pick another activity because I can't do it about half the time, and the other half the time my wife will be late to it.

NGB's 22-year-old sister passed away on October 7th due to the progression of her childhood disease.

Yesterday was her memorial service.

The week she passed, NGB and I had been at the hospital with her and the family while she road a medical condition roller coaster. We had come home the day before she passed, and when we left she was awake and stable. The passed the next morning.

DD4 hasn't been fazed by any of it. DD11 was shattered. DD13... was "trying to be strong." When we returned from the hospital that week, I told her that being strong only meant that you delay your grief and that you do not deny it.

Yesterday, at the service, I reminded her of this. I told her; "Remember, I told you that you only delay your grief. Do not deny it. Don't hold on to it. Today is the day to let go."


Later that day I found my words posted on DD's wall on Facebook followed with a "I love my Daddy."

Man... how do you NOT swell to bursting after a day like that?

HHH:

Sorry to hear about your family's loss. Great. Great. Great. Great. Great advice to your DD13.

Well done.

SP

HUgs to you all. prayers are with you

HHH, I am so sorry to hear about your family's loss.

I love your advice to your DD. Very true...I for one have been holding onto my grief. Denial? I don't know. That's a whole 'nother thread (and I suppose an update is in order for me at some point).

I had a similar moment yesterday related to my oldest DD. Had a parent-teacher conference. Her teacher was talking about how the class had gone on a field trip, and they passed a prison, and DD#1 said, "My mommy's been there!" Apparently the parent chaperone sitting nearby was a bit shocked. Anyway her teacher said that DD#1 was obviously proud of me and what I do, and...well, I was just so touched by that. Just made me think of how I looked up to my parents, it was a lesson on how my daughters look up to H and I as well, and how despite how miserably in my life I have failed my daughters, that love is so amazing.

Strengthens my resolve to never let them down again.

Thanks all... You may have to keep it coming.

The week NGB's sister was dying, her mother was going through a respiratory infection. They did a chest x-ray to check for infection and found masses in her lungs.

The biopsy was Friday, and results will get back this week.

This coming Friday, my mom's husband will be going in to repair an 80% blockage in his carotid artery.

NGB is a mess, keeps getting the cart before the horse, imagining her mother dying from cancer, stating she doesn't know how she would get through it.

I read her the "This Too Shall Pass" article from AoM, and talked about how when imagining such bad events, we don't imagine everything else that will happen in our lives. And, I talked to her about my own grief, and how I have progressed through loss, and how life goes on after being dealt the most painful blow I could ever imagine in my life.

I mentioned how a you never really regain that hole that a great loss leaves inside you, but how it eventually dominates your thoughts less and less, and you learn how to go on with that loss.

I have a tendency to be stoic, but as ol' Clint Eastwood stated "A man's got to know his limitations."

There were cracks in the damn at the service for NGB's sister. I did not grieve for her, though she was rather young. I grieved for my FIL, for my wife, for my SIL and BIL.

I took a moment to share, as others had. Many talked about her smile. I confirmed this, and added that they had forgotten her eye roll, and that her smile was just the icing on the cake - it was her laugh. It was infectious, and once you heard it, you went to work to set her laughing so you could hear it again. I mentioned how she was much like her older sister, and how I had referred to her as SIL Jr. As I told DD13, it was the day to grieve, and a day to remember.


And now... no I return to steel-form. Now I am to be the rock in these trying times. Safety. Light.

Now I return to... oh, what was that word leveled at me? Ah... arrogance.

Not a word I fear. It was the thing NGB said made me attractive. Something I lost some time ago.

I prefer cocky.

"They say I'm cocky. And I say, what? It's not braggin' [explicative deleted] if you back it up!"

Let's see...

MIL doesn't have lung cancer... (may have an auto-immune disease, though)

Step-dad made it through his surgery...

New; SIL has a strange mass that has to be checked out...


Fun stuff; did a Myers-Briggs Personality test and came out ENTP.



Now... reading that, I can see a lot of those things going on in my own thought patterns and behaviors. Especially a lot in that last paragraph.

However... a big however... I think about how easily we accept generalized statements. I wonder if Jung could have had just as successful a career as a cold reader as John Edward...

2 this week.

We lost 2 residents, and both left behind a spouse. One bereaved husband, one bereaved wife.

The wife I risked my job for, because she had no way to get to the hospital while her husband was coding in the ER, and I took her... and we didn't make it in time... and I had to leave her there alone...

The woman who passed was one of my favorites. A retired nurse, and her and her husband were always checking on my progress while I was going through school. It also turned out that she was related to me through my paternal grandmother.

Death is something that happens where I work. Not as often as full-blown nursing homes, but it happens. I've only ever made the discovery once. That was a few weeks ago.

I've seen the progress of Alzheimer's and Dementia separate couples with 60 or 70 years of marriage, and that is even more devastating than death.

Though, I've also watched man who lost his wife suddenly succumb to a massive proliferation of cancer 6 months after she passed. As if he held his body together with sheer will until he knew she would be safe.

I saw my grandfather do this, as well. He held on until he and grandma were safe living with my aunt, and then he called it in 2 weeks before his 98th birthday. It's been almost 5 years since, and grandma is still kicking at 100.

I've seen interdependence; the development of two lives so involved with each other, they become like two trees whose roots have become so entangled that they are now one life.


What I've never heard was; "It was easy."

One of my residents told me about her late husband's 15-year bout with alcoholism, and how it made him "Useless in any way that a man can be useful." There was an added "If you know what I mean."

Sigh. ED. I didn't need to know that!

I can't imagine enduring 15 years like that... she eventually kicked his butt and got him sobered up... long enough to squeak out a couple good years before the years of damage caught up.

I also have one poor woman who could never keep a husband alive. 4 of them, and each and every one up and keeled over on her.


There is a lot to see working with and caring for the elderly on a daily basis. It can inspire you, or it can break your heart. You laugh, you cry. You have hope and know defeat. You will empowered and utterly helpless.

And some days?


Some days it's just a day.

We watched it happen to my dad. COPD, dementia, and emphysema. He knew the oxygen tube was important somehow but wasn't there enough to know how to put it back in.

I think he held it together long enough for me to get my family moved back to Dallas. After that his decline was rapid. Seeing the kids was a constant source of joy for him and I was happy he got that. He didn't last a year after we moved out here.

When we knew he was going and we were saying our goodbyes, I think he waited for me. He passed the day after my visit.

Hospice workers are a blessing. They gave my mom a break and let my dad have a measure of dignity for his last three weeks.

So, looking at a new job prospect as the wellness nurse at a memory care unit (Alzheimer's/Dementia).

Perceived cons; doesn't pay as well as a skilled nursing facility, hands-on experience isn't as good as skilled nursing or hospital experience.

Pros; I enjoy both mental health and elder care. Its a monday-Friday 8-5 type job. Gives leadership experience. Large company may have "perks" for continuing ed, as well as transfer opportunities.


NGB is probably more excited than I am based on the schedule alone. The pay hit stinks, but is offset with everything else.

FiretrUCK today.

/salute

What's up, Trip?

If you'd rather not chat publicly, send the Mods an e-mail, and ask them to forward it to me.

2 year mark, brother. To the day. And burying grandma Saturday.
Working stupid night shift. Today can kiss my Lilly white... You get the point.

I'll survive.

You're a better, stronger man than you were two years ago.
Your marriage is measurably better.
You know that you have within you strengths of character and fidelity that you may have only suspected previously.
You have offered support and help to others in pain and without hope.

Admittedly, the method of delivery of these improvements is not what we would have preferred, but:

There is nothing so exhilerating as being shot at, without effect! - Winston Spencer Churchill

3XH,

2 Years is the figurative and calenderive (?) marking point for real recovery per what Im told.

Life has dealt us some lemons and for some of us they continue to be delivered by the truckload, make some lemonade. Too cliche'?

Be strong.

mss

Thanks, gents.

Night shifts are BAD for me. Too much time with not enough to do, and it's me and 1 other employee on premises.

The aforementioned job opportunity fell through, and I'm actually eying a skilled facility now. After the last letdown, I'm not getting too excited, but I did get hired a new hire packet the moment I handed in my cover letter, resume, and application because the DNS remembered when I did my clinicals and practicum there.


Other than that, a morning filled with loud music has helped.

The good thing about it being the 2 year mark is hopefully, you get the trigger over and done with and the next year should start easier sailing!

Hang in there, HHH! You've offered support and wisdom to others (like me) who benefit from you going before...as do the other vets around here. Helping others through this makes you stronger - and makes your marriage stronger too, I'm sure.

We sometimes joke that I am on the 5 year plan... Headed towards 4 and steadily recovering.

Well, dang... I keep hearing it's easier after 2, don't ruin my facade that it's a magical number! LOL

Seriously...I know that things don't just magically get better due to time. Two years is more of a minimum than maximum. BUT...I think if you make it to the two year mark and are still working hard, the future is very promising!

Unfortunately, the sting of infidelity never really goes away - you just manage it. The good news is that the "sting" can keep you on track towards living a better life rather than letting it slip into mediocrity.

I made kind of a vow to myself to share these dips. The reason? Not to discourage, but to add a little enlightenment and hope, believe it or not.

For those that follow, know you are not alone, and no matter how dark the night you will see the day. No matter what, you can make it.

Not trying to ruin anything. The folks that start here have a HUGE head start on us.We were johnny come lately's here (almost 3 years out on our own.)

Had we been here earlier we wouldn't have had to stumble through doing things like we did. I think that recovery for us took longer because of that. The key is what everyone is saying, keep working and moving forward. Progress!

CV

I was just kidding on the "ruining" thing.

At least you stumbled in the right direction, CV!

Moving and checking...right?! That's all we can do! I've often thought how much easier it would be if we could all just put our lives on hold and focus ONLY on recovery for a set period of time. Wouldn't that be great?!! (I esp. thought this after H and I being away by ourselves last week. SO much easier to focus on US!)

Blah.

I made a mistake at work, and compounded it by not following through afterwards... and lost my job. And that compounded my search for new work when reference calls were made.

It's been 2 weeks. Some shining prospects completely fell apart after they called my former employer.

Yes, I've been stressed, but I've been The Rock.

NBG? Bundle of nerves. Waves crashing against The Rock... we've all seen coastal rocks, they can withstand the waves only so long.

Luckily, one person took the time to ask my what happened, and I told her (this is not a "person" it is a potential employer) exactly and honestly that I made a mistake, and then did not follow up as I should have.

So, I start on Monday doing home health.


And... I'm just amping with music...

Sorry to hear about the job, HHH. I am glad you were able to find something else.

Hope all is well otherwise, and glad to hear you were able to hold it together, esp. if NGB has been upset/worried about the job loss.

Sorry about the sucky development, Trip. I know you'll learn from it, grab the new opportunity, and move forward.

Thanks guys.


Nothing really to be "sorry" about, I failed to follow through. My failure, my fault.

The situation wasn't serious, but not following through is.

Take the lump, move ahead.

I know what you are feeling, HHH. I recently had something hit me too like this - not about a job but just paying the consequences for stupid, past stuff. It sucks.

Good for you for being The Rock!!!

Sounds like you have a great attitude about it and will move forward. Live and learn, eh?

A call out to Triple H.

Can you please do a fly by on INTERNAL_PAIN'S thread?

He needs some encouraging words on not having his need for SF met by his WW.

Thank you in advance.

So, this is the update thus far;

Lost a job in Feb, then had 2 by the end of the month; part time in Home Health, and Per diem at a skilled facility.

By the end of March, transitioned into full time at the skilled facility with 20hrs/wk in home health.

So, through most of March and all of April I was working 60+ hours a week, 6 days a week. Bad juju.

This month, I got my Sundays cut back, and gave notice on my weekday case in home health. I finally got my replacement trained last week. So now I'm down to 49hrs/wk, 6 days a week. Rumor has it that we will be layed off the case I do on Sundays for the summer (pediatric client, mother is taking the summer off and will care for her son).

Good stuff.

NGB moved to a different store and department, which was a weight off of me.

I have started a bridge program that will take me from L(ow)P(aid)N(urse) to my BSN. While my interests before were for mental health/psychiatry after my bachelor's, I'm beginning to think I will push for informatics, as I think it will position me with a better schedule as a husband and father.

Luckily, the program is online and at-your-own pace (excluding clinical hours), as I don't think brick-and-mortar classroom is the best thing for now.


Ah... but the BSs wonder; how do you feel? Between fine and great.

Do "the thoughts" still creep in?

Well, yeah. My description of infidelity is like being diagnosed with a chronic, incurable, but treatable disease. You are different, but you can have a happy, fulfilling life if you manage your disease. If you are reading this post, YOU KNOW THE PRESCRIPTION.

FOLLOW IT.

Just like having Diabetes or COPD, if you don't follow your regimen, YOU WILL FEEL IT.

As far as "the thoughts" I brush them aside and march forward.

If multiple class failures and an abysmal GPA could not stop me from becoming a nurse, and continuing that path, than a couple crappy thoughts ain't gonna slow me down.


Chin up. Work it.

Thanks for the update. You have been missed!!

So true.

Triple H you've been missed!!

Awww... thanks ladies!


I still read the forums every day, I just don't like posting from my phone

Was glad to hear your update, BH. And happy someone prodded you for one! :p

You have been most impressive with your librarian-like skills with articles and clips! Very nice work!

Haha thanks I had very good teachers!! You were one of them.

We need some of your "strong" posting to some of these BH and WW from you.

Hehe... and if I approached you as I do anyone else... there might be times where you hated me!

Actually Triple H I never hated you because I was listening and learning.

I think some of the posters that take offense to you (like Mel) is because you hit the point so direct on and they don't like it.

I remember reading on the boards way earlier and it was just a "vent" how horrible my marriage was/is. There wasn't much of teaching the MB principles.

There also seemed to be more trouble makers saying things against MB.

I know Melody explained that is the way it used to be here. What a drag it must have been.

I notice some older posters that will come back and try with the old posting methods and they get jumped on.

I'm so glad MB forums are actually used like Dr. Harley talks about on the radio show. To help educate you about MB concepts.

Ah, this little tidbit is edging closer and closer to reality. My bachelor's program is online, so we can move without disrupting it.

We have been researching a little beach town about 8 hours from here.

As a note; family vacations - for now - SUCK. We spent last week at my FIL's for father's day. Not just us and our kids, but my SIL and her shack up, my BIL and his shack up, and BIL's kids... in addition, FIL had an older daughter that came up to meet her siblings for the first time.


FC time? Sure. But at the cost of any and all UA time almost the whole week.

The solution discussed is we get a hotel room on future trips.


The trip wasn't all bad or anything. The fellas spent a day resurfacing FIL's deck. NGB joked about seeing me do "manual labor." I can do it, I just chose a path which kept me away from physical work. We went to the beach, and went to a zoo.

There was just no escape from people, or the kids... bleh.

H-A-B-I-T-S.

P-L-A-N-N-I-N-G.

Create a new normal, or suffer symptoms. Old normal, other people's normal don't work.