I am struggling hard with it right now I thought I would see if anyone else has dealt with this, and what you found helpful.

I feel like my confidence in myself is shattered. I am drowning in a pit of self-loathing. I am past the anger and the bad feelings towards my H, but I cant get over them about myself.

Common thoughts in my head are-

"I are a failure as a wife or this would not have happened"
"I am worth less than a cheap ONS"
"He doesnt really love me"
"He isnt really attracted to me" that one is huge because he blamed the cheating on certain physical traits that cant be changed without surgery that we cant afford
"I am stupid, I didnt know what he was doing"

I define myself as he saw me in his fog. He told me these flaws over and over, and I think somewhere along the way that I started to believe it.


He is doing so well now, and he is caring and attentive and supportive. He seems honestly remorseful and tells me that I am the best thing in his life. I just hate myself so much that I cant see how it could be true. I am afraid to believe him because I didnt see what he was doing before and I believed his lies. I dont trust my own judgement.

Learning to love my H again was a piece of cake compared to learning to love myself again.

This whole experience changed my perspective of who I am. I never would have thought I would have stayed. I dont recognize the fearful ashamed person I have become. I dont even know who I am anymore.

The artice HHH posted about accepting us as we are now...I dont know how to accept who I am now. I want the happy confident fearless woman I used to be back.

I am afraid she is gone forever.

How do you learn to love yourself again?

Rising, bring us up to speed, please:

When was the A (I think it was a ONS, correct?)

Your WH is military, right? When does WH come home? Or IS he home yet?

Your posts go back quite a few months and cover different forums. Recapping everything will make it easier to respond, thanks!

RFA, I'm sorry you're here, and I'm sorry for the mind-messes that your FWH fed you.
But I will point out something that experience has demonstrated over and over again.

A WS in the fog, almost invariably KNOWS his behavior is heinous and reprehensible, that he is committing sins against his God, and offenses against his spouse, that cannot be truly justified. But - and here is the kicker - he attempts to assemble a paradigmatic construct that DOES justify the unjustifiable.

So here's the answers to his self-imposed contradictions he subconsciously wrestles with:

"I'm sneaking around, relying on her loving trust for me not to be discovered," gets changed to, "If she doen't know what I'm doing, she's stupid and inattentive."

"In the heat of affair-lust, stoked primarily by the alleviation of guilt by simple orgasmic release, I'm enjoying sex like I haven't recently," gets changed to "I never really loved her," and "It was her physical imperfections that prevented us from a more perfect union."

"I am proving to be without honor or integrity," becomes "My wife was the inadequate spouse, driving me to these things."

We recovering BS's (seemingly more prevalently the ones whose WS's had an EA component) have to first fill in the hole created by these imposed slurs, at the same time we're trying to rebuild the ediface of a strong, healthy new marriage. The strongest among us manage to do so. It often requires counselling.

I hope you fight through this.

Rising,

I'm so sorry that you still feel the things you do. I think you need to realize that what happened to your marriage on both sides happened, everyone involved in an affair spins their own stories to justify what they are doing, what your husband used as excuses was his way of turning the tables on you. It didn't have anything to do with you or what you don't have...........you are a wonderful person just the way you are...........he wouldn't still be there if that wasn't true...........
Now you need to work on forgiving yourself, we are all human and we all make mistakes along the way, our brains can justify anything if we let go of our boundaries...............you were weak for a moment, the real strength in someone is learning from our mistakes and living right afterwards.
We can't live perfectly and it's okay to make mistakes as long as we make things right and protect those we love in the future.........
You feel powerless right now, but you don't have to, each and every day you remember the girl you used to be and be her, don't worry about what anyone else thinks, I am going to guess the people closest to you miss that woman as well.........
You don't have to feel guilty about being happy, you have a choice here..........CHOOSE THE BEST YOU............it's time to start again and wipe the slate clean and move forward in a positive happy way............
I go through a lot of what you speak of as well and when a negative thought pops into my head, I stop and say to myself, I'm not going there and change what I'm doing and thinking to something enjoyable, something I know will bring a smile to my face...........I am choosing to be happy even though sometimes I don't feel it, sooner or later my feelings should catch up to my actions........
Try it every day, if you falter start again and again until you are the old you again..........
(hugs) jessi

NeverGuessed, I've done my share of book learnin' in my years, but I would love for you to explain this in more detail and plainer conversational language.

I'm not sure I agree with you, but I'd like to read a repost of this.

Sorry I should have put all that in the original post. H is in the military, not home yet but he should be very soon. We are just waiting on his orders now.

We got married right before he got stationed in Germany. He got heavily into drugs and alcohol pretty much immediately. In the first 4 months there was one prostitute, two ONS's with girls he went home with or brought home from the bar, and one girl that he knew that he knew from work that he brought home from a bar and then slept with again when he invited her to a party a few months later (that one he had feelings for). So 5 times with 4 different women in 4 months. Then there was another ONS a few weeks after our first anniversary, when I was seven months pregnant with DD.

I found out about 2 incidents when we had been married about 5 months, and the rest of it didnt come out till about a year later. After I caught him the first time was when he started justifying it with me not being good enough. I went through my entire prgnancy with DD listening to him tell me that it was the flaws in my body from having kids that had made him cheat. I cant begin to describe how much that hurt and scared me.

He used that to justify lying to me about the infidelity, lying to me about the drinking and the drug use. Every time he drank or got high he knew that he was taking the risk of cheating, and he had to twist it in his mind that it wasnt him or the addictions, that it was me.

I tried harder and harder, and he just raised the bar higher and higher.

Once the whole truth came out and I got him into treatment for the addictions things got better. He acts now, and treats me now, like I am the best thing in his life. He has apologized many times for the things he said and did to me.

He says it was the guilt, and justification. In my mind I believe him, and I know that it makes sense. I just cant accept it. I see nothing but flaws when I look at myself.

I am afraid to believe the things he says now. He isnt the problem anymore. It's me, because I cant see myself any way but the way he told me I was for such a long time, even though he doesnt believe that stuff anymore.

Anytime I fall short of perfect I panic. If the house isnt clean or one of the kids is acting up. It's a major disaster to me, and I get scared. Before, things would be going good for us, and he would go out, or do something else that he knew would be hurtful to me and start picking fights to make me look bad and get rid of the guilt. I never knew what little flaw was going to set him off.

The only exception to that is trying to look nice, which I have given up on. I buy pretty clothes and they hang in the closet. I wont wear anything that actually fits, because then people would be able to see what my body looks like, which I find humiliating. I'm not really over weight or anything, I just do anything I can to hide my chest, since that was his issue.

I know I am not being rational. When we are together we have SF often, almost entirely initiated by him, which I doubt would be the case if he wasnt attracted to me, but after everything he said to me I still feel like he loves me more like he would love a sister than the way you love your wife. I look at myself and think there is nothing to be attracted to.

I dont like feeling this way about myself, and I dont know how to fix it.

Shot in the dark; where do you list admiration on your emotional needs?

What is your H doing to meet this need?

Where do you list affection? How does your H do at meeting your need for affection?

Those two needs being met properly should be decent confidence builders.

Outside of that, you have been facing some life-changing grief. This is exacerbated by a lack of control - you can't control your H, or his views, or his actions.

You can control you.

You can get your "hair done, nails done, e'rything did." Treat yourself a bit. Try a new hair color, new makeup, a slightly different style of dress.

You can also choose to focus some of your anguish into exercising more, and eating better. The added benefit here is that if you improve your energy levels, you will improve your mood.

Hang tight, RFA.

OK, I cross posted and missed some of the advice I was given earlier, but I have read through it all now. I am going to try it. I made myself get up and get dressed in clothes that fit, put make-up on, and I am going to get my hair cut.

As for exercise, I've taken up belly dancing because it's calm and relaxing, but I think I need something to get the endorphins flowing more. I am going to get some vitamin B while I am out too, or maybe just a good multi-vitamin, I think they have them that they say boost mood or energy.

I'm going to try and stop the negative self-talk. Maybe I should make a list of things that I do like about myself and read it every morning. I can ask H to help me, so I can focus on the things that he does like, instead of what he said he didnt.

I have to figure out some ways to get the old me back. I dont want this experience to take that away from me too. I want to keep the good changes I have made, but I want my joy in life back, my willingness to take risks and have fun.

I am withering away in the cage of fear I built for myself, and it has to stop. Even if living in fear actually could get my H to be faithful, would it really be worth it if it means I lose myself?

I have to let go of the illusion of control, I can do my best and keep my side of the street clean, and the rest is on him. I am just going to try and enjoy today. Then wake up and do the same thing tomorrow.

Normally admiration wouldnt be a top 5 for me, but after all the time he spent tearing me down...for now I think it is, because I need him to help me feel like he sees me as being ok. Not perfect, but at least ok.

Soory, MB, if my prose was a bit too entangling.

I was using an analogy to illustrate what I have found to be the two (occasionally conflicting) activities that BS's are likely to endeavor to achieve.

Let's assume the pre-A marriage of the couple looks like this:


Now to some folks, this might be great, but given the upcoming events, it wasn't sufficiently supportive for this couple.

Now the A occurs, is discovered, and the couple decides to reconcile. What they envision building together might be represented as so:



Sturdy, well founded, a monument to their marriage, but also conveying to outsiders that this is private, for them alone.

Sadly, one of the by-products of the A and its aftermath is that their starting-point for their ediface looks like this:


They usually have extensive repair tasks before getting seriously into building their new marriage.

RFA, has been deposited into this pit, it seems, as many others have been.

This makes perfect sense to me. I have often thought that having an A is like deciding you dont like how your kitchen looks and setting a bomb off in it. Now you have to clear out all the damage just to get back to what it looked like before...and thats before you can do anything about improvement. Would have been a lot easier to just start with what you had before the bomb went off.

Awwwww, jeeeez, you said in eighteen words what it took me dozens (plus three illustrations) to state.

Yeah, but the pictures sure were purty.

There were a few things that I realized early on that have allowed me to push forward;

- no matter what kind of spouse I was, I in no way deserved the abuse of infidelity.

- no matter what happens going forward from here, I know who I am, what I am capable of, and that I can be a loving, supporting spouse.

- no matter what happens going forward, I can be a strong, supportive father for my daughters (I wouldn't suggest FWW try to put "baby mama drama" on me in the event of divorce).

- I am a handsome devil.

- I am a thoughtful and giving lover.

Do I fear continued infidelity? No. I dealt with it once while we were dating, and forgave it. I am now dealing with it in our marriage. Last chance.

Got my vitamins and stuff to make my hair pretty, got dressed again today. I havent had any pop today, I am switching to water, which always makes me feel better even if doesnt taste very good at first.

My H made his list of stuff he likes about me. It was very sweet. I havent started mine yet, it seems like a pretty overwhelming thing to think about. Maybe I will give it a few days and see if the vitamin B kicks in and helps my mood out some.

Till then I think that in addition to trying to look better and take better care of myself I am going to set a goal to do one fearless thing every day. Even just a little thing like being the one to say "I love you" first instead of waiting for him to say it.

HHH does knowing that NGB is on her last chance make you feel better? How does that make you less afraid?

See my previous post.

The first thing I did was accept that I could be happy without her in my life. It sounds so horrible when you considering that I'm working on recovering the marriage; but living without her would be the response to any further infidelity. Pretty much as Dr. Harley stated; "I will never see or talk to her again."

If any of the actions she committed, against me, are repeated, I will treat her like a cancerous tumor, and excise her from my life.

I love the woman, but this was a horrible, disgusting, and selfish act, and I simply will not tolerate it. It's hard enough tolerating that it happened at all to begin with.

Would it hurt? Sure, but I won't be caught totally off guard again. She has proven she what she is capable of, so I wouldn't be surprised.

Not to mention, implementing MB, the excuse of ignorance is no longer viable - and so long as I keep my side of the street clean, that is no longer a viable excuse. No excuse is enough, but there are none left from this point forward.

It's a boundary.

I also will accept nothing less than a loving, romantic marriage based on complete Openness and Honesty.

I've stated it clearly; None of the actions involved in or leading to your A are OK with me. Some of these things included female work friends that were not involved or aware of the A, but who encouraged IB and other disrespectful behaviors which lead into the A.

It's all about clear boundaries, and communicating them clearly and respectfully.

As stated; "Boundaries are your castle walls, and there to protect you."

I suck at boundaries. I've never been able to understand the concept, though many people have tried.

Knowing I am done if he messes up again doesnt make me less afraid. Reguardless of what I do after, it is still going to hurt.

My mom said sort of the same thing with one of my step-fathers. "I'll leave if he hits me again. We have the money to go and he is doing anger management..."

None of that protected her from the pain of having her jaw broken in two places, and she didnt leave because she wasnt strong enough to live alone.

I guess its one of those things that provides comfort to others, it just doesnt really work for me at this point. I'm not there yet. It doesnt protect me from the pain itself, which is what I am afraid of. I am afraid of being humiliated and betrayed again and that it will destroy me before I even get the chance to live without him. I think I have to fix that first.

Everybody has heard the stories of people who were raped or beaten up etc that wont go outside anymore. Thats kinda what this feels like to me. You realize that you have no control over other people and that they can hurt you, and you get afraid.

So every day I am going to do one small fearless thing, and take one step outside. Just one thing to make me a better mother, better wife...a stronger person that loves herself again. I dont know how else to get over it, but a little bit at a time.

Step one in building my castle wall is being strong enough to know that I can live through the pain, then I can work on being strong enough to leave if I need to.

Actually if I am doing everything I can do...and he still messes up...it would feel more like it was more his loss than mine. He would be the broken one, and I would deserve better than that. So really it wouldnt hurt so much. It would be his failure, not mine, and I wouldnt need to feel bad about that. Accepting that is a big part of Step One.

Thanks, you are the first person that has actually been able to help me even come close to understanding this.

I couldnt get it before because leaving just seems beyond me, its hard to think about what to do after the pain, if you dont know how you are even going to deal with it long enough to make it that far.

You aren't alone. There are only so many areas in which I am good at defining them. Some other folks around here are like boundary sharpshooters - they can hit a boundary dead-center from 3000 yards.



How knowing that you are done if he messes up again provides relief from this fear; you know exactly what you will do, you have a plan. This is your battle line.


My oldest sister is on her 4th marriage - she was bad at that living alone stuff. At one point, the man she was looking for was the man that could take care of her children so she could commit suicide. Luckily, she never found that man.

I see a lot of it in FWW - the difference is my BIL fell into a bad marriage and drugs after my sister left him, so he was no longer a part of his children's lives. Not gonna be me.

Part of my plan early on was to shore FWW up and strengthen her independence... and leave. Though, I've always believed in fostering her strength, as life is weird. I could die after I post this of a sudden heart attack. I don't want my children doing the step-father shuffle.




It doesn't protect me from the pain of the past and present, it protects me from fear of additional pain in the future. Again, it's not that it won't hurt, it's just that I won't be surprised. I still check her phone, FB (only family on there any more) and the phone records weekly. She calls me on each work break, and I have lunch with her every day that I can.


Or some people start packing a gun. Some people gather strength rather than fear. Some people refuse to be the victim, ever again.


Awesome!


Two separate issues; one is past and present, one is future. Divide and address them as such, and it will be easier to deal with.

Actually if I am doing everything I can do...and he still
BINGO!

Whatever we did on our side of the street, we didn't step outside of the marriage. That was their decision. It is their failure to be honest, thoughtful, and basically moral people. Especially after a) they fully know they are capable (no more "I would never" denial fantasy), and b) what it does to their spouse - they have absolutely no more illusions left to even attempt to defend or justify a repeat of the crime.


Thanks. I'm flattered.

I'm probably behind you timeline-wise RFA... and I will continually insist that I am no model-BS. I don't think anyone is, however. We can try, but it's hard to be heroic when you are still bleeding all over the floor, you know?

This is a huge part of my fear of leaving the M. My mom has been married six times, I did a lot of the shuffle. I can prevent that on my side by not getting married again until my kids are grown, but I cant control my H, or who he decides to be married to and have my babies around. To me staying at least gives me some control over that. I dont want my kids to grow up the way I did, and I have the thought that even a bad M between their parents is better than the shuffle. I dont want a bad M, and I am trying to make it a good one, but this is part of my mental struggle over the idea of being able to leave.


Just for the purpose of clarity, I did step outside the M. When he first left, and was cheating all the time, I cried on the shoulder of one of my guy friends. He was meeting needs (conversation and affection) that my H wasnt. I never said anything to OM about it, but the feelings I had towards him became inappropriate. My H feels like those feelings were a betrayal even though I never said anything to OM about it, and my H is the one that defines what a betrayal is. So I had a four month EA, that hurt my H.

And when the whole big ugly picture of his infidelity started coming out, and he was playing the trickle truth game with me, I had a revenge ONS. I decided that hurting him back would make me feel better, which of course it didn't.

I dont exactly have the moral high ground.

Eeek! Foot-in-mouth smiley incoming!

Ok, so you don't have the moral high-ground. That doesn't mean that you can't stake your boundaries. It doesn't justify him furthering the cycle, does it?

So, as both WS and BS you get to know two things; what you will never repeat again yourself, and what you're willing to accept or not accept moving forward.

No need in your case for a foot in mouth smiley, (though I need one quite often), I post primarily as a BS. I did so at first because when I first came here I was not aware that the first incident even qualified as infidelity, so I believed I was ONLY a BS.

I do so now because when I had my revenge ONS, I was well aware of my boundaries, and I chose to ignore them. I had both feet in hell and I was taking my H down with me, even though I was aware that I was sacrificing a piece of my soul to do it. I was enraged enough to hurt myself to hurt him.

So the usual things that are advised to make a BS feel safe dont make my H feel safe. When I asked him if there was anything that would help him feel safe he told me that what he needed was for me to heal from what he did. He feels safe when I am happy in the M (or at least when I am not hurting from what he did), so I come here and post to try and heal, because healing me heals him too.

So I'm still here, trying to crawl out of the hole and pulling him along behind me.

Kinda get that. FWW has stated several times she wishes I would have an RA.

At one time, when I asked for separation, she stated that she wouldn't let me leave, but if I wanted to date I could... while living under the same roof.



It was just so crazy, that it worked. No RA.

It's not a path I would recommend, and I try to catch any posters I see making musings about how they think it would help or make them feel better etc and let them know from personal experience that it doesnt and it wont. You are right it is crazy.

I stopped taking the vitamins, I havent really slept in 3 days. I doubt it's the vitamins but since it started when I started taking them I thought I would skip today and see what happened.

I'm to the point now where I think I have to admit that it's just my depression again. Sometimes bad things trigger it, and I think that the New Year's Eve anniveray of his last one night stand and then January being the start of all his infidelity from the year before was enough to set it off. I dont like having to admit it, but it happens sometimes.

Nothing I can do but just try and keep it under control until my mood swings back to happy. It's just a normal depressive episode, not the crazed rapid cycling like I was doing right after the most recent set of DDays, so hopefully it will pass soon.

My H is being great about it. I remember before trying to get him to help me and he blew me off to go to the bar. Now he notices that I am sad, and seems concerned. He was singing me happy songs today to make me smile. I think some days that I dont even know this person, he is so different from what he was the first year and a half we were married.

We found out a few days ago that two of his brothers are getting divorced. One because his wife went out and blew $18,000 in three months without him being aware of it. The other because his wife, who has already given birth to twin girl OC's from her first A, just got caught in having had three affairs since the twins were born two years ago. My BIL couldnt handle raising the twins so my MIL and FIL have them. We offered them MB, and have in the past too, but they just dont seem interested.

No matter how bad I feel, it could be worse. My H and I did find MB, and we are still married. He told me he thought we were very lucky, and he is right.

I still cant sleep, but I am using being up all night to get stuff done.

I finally got all thirteen pages of notes done from the parenting books we picked out so I can start doing a better job on Family Commitment. While we are working out the fine details on that I am starting on my notes from our finance books so we can get a better hold on our budget and make sure we have used POJA on a plan to get us where we want to be with our money situation.

I made my list of things I like I about myself, and areas where I can focus on trying to improve myself. I did a list for my H too, on about two dozen reasons why I love him, and how lucky we are to have each other and how grateful I am that he is fighting with me to save our M. So my fearless act for yesterday was chosing to believe, even if only for yesterday, that everything is what it seems and he really is doing everything he can to make this work.

Everytime he sees me look sad he tells me that is here, and he is going to do everything in his power to stay here with me for the rest of our lives. Every time he says it, I make the choice to believe it.

My fearless act for yesterday was finally emailing the radio show about my issue of not thinking he was attracted to me...Dr. Harley says it sounds to him like the reason I feel that way is because my H ISNT attracted to me.

I feel so much better now...

Anyways its replaying till tomorrow, just in case anybody wants to listen. Joyce was very sweet though!

D'oh!

Did he give you any strategies to address this?

My wife sent me this to help me out

http://www.erinpavlina.com/blog/2010/09/the-secret-to-forgiving-yourself/

Thanks Rush, that was a good read, and it's something I dont do enough for myself. I set my standards at perfection and if I fall short of (which I do since everyone does) I beat myself up about it for eternity.

HHH,

There was a bit more correspondence with Dr. Harley after the show yesterday to clarify some things that he was basing his opinion on that were incorrect (like the idea that maybe I had trapped my H into marrying me by being pregnant, which was completely not true).

My H and I have been over everything that he said to us and between the advice we received yesterday on the show, and what he told us after the show with the corrections. The basic idea is this:

My H did love me and he was attracted to me when he married me.

The addictions and the infidelilty are what caused him to feel that he was not in love with me and not attracted me, not the lack of attraction that caused the infidelity (or created a vulnerability to it since I cant make him cheat).

He did believe that he wasnt attracted to me when he said it, for a number of reasons. Addictions shut down your love bank because the addiction is meeting your EN's, so he did not feel "in love" with me. My H had a long history of pornography use and sleeping around (addictions to drugs and alcohol tend to lead to unsafe sexual behavior), that had caused him to develop unrealistic expectations of the female body. No one would have been able to meet his idea of what he wanted because no such perfect woman exists. He was also operating under a biased contrast effect that caused him to focus only on my flaws because it helped him to feel less guilty if he could blame me instead of the addictions.

Dr Harley's advice was-
for my husband to be passionately in love with me
for him to never ever look at another naked woman other than me
get rid of his addictions


We have done all of that already.

So basically when he said he wasnt attracted to me, he was being honest because that's what he believed.

When he says now that I am the most beautful woman in the world, he is being honest, because that's what he believes.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. I am probably not the most attractive woman he has ever seen, though he thinks that I am because he loves me and he isnt looking at other women, but he was more attracted to me than what he was willing to admit to himself he was cheating.

He ended up married to me in the first place because I was attractive enough for him to want to get to know me, and spend time with me. Maybe not perfect, but still pretty good.

He was just a mental mess, and our separations were disasters waiting to happen. By the time he got his mess straightened up, I had been in Plan A far too long and the realationship had been so painful that I had no love left for him and I was a mental mess.

We are on the same page now though, and as long as we keep up meeting each others needs and he stays away from the porn and the addictions we have a decent chance of saving the M.

Rising,

I heard the radio show and thought there was much more info for Dr Harley to make some comments that really applied to you. I am glad there was correspondence after it went off the air. This above post is so positive. I am so glad for you and for your H and child.

AM

Thank you AM. The thing that got to me most was when Dr. Harley told me that NO woman would have been able to meet my H's standards for very long. Even if he had married an eighteen year old porn star, he would have had to replace her as soon as she started to show signs of aging. It clicked with me because my H has told me that he has never been really satisfied with the bodies of any woman he was in a relationship with. His ideal woman would look something like a life size Barbie doll, flat stomach, narrow waist, wide hips, and a very large naturally perky chest. I've never seen such a woman, and if I did it would be kinda scary.

I'm kind of a great example why Plan B is such a good idea, because by the time he came around I was so buried in anger and resentment that I have a lot of issues to work through. He is doing great now, but all of that resentment is constantly draining my $LB.

Every time I work through something, another issue comes up right behind it.

I got my tubes tied after I had DD, because I too afraid to have any more kids with his attitude towards my body. He wanted to wait, and maybe have another, but I was sure I would never ever be enthusiastic about that because it would be risking my M even more. Now that I know that there is a good chance of him being ok with my body...it would have been so nice to have another baby someday. Even if we never decided to, it would be nice to still have the option. I was twenty two when DD was born, so I still had a lot of years left for us to make that decision.

So it's over one resentment and on to working out the next one, cause infidelity is the gift that just keeps on giving...

Actually he may have some resentment towards me for that one, since he wanted to wait and see if we wanted to go for baby number three someday, so I need to talk to him about ways we can help each other with that.

RFA, I have rewritten this comment four times, and I just can't get it not to sound like I'm ashamed to share a gender with your husband. So, I might just as well say it.

I just spit Dr. Pepper all over my laptop!

He was a mental case, and I was a worse one for actually blaming myself for not living up to his standards. He was great in a lot of ways, and I didnt see how abusive it was. It took me awhile but I finally figured out what his expectations were of me when we got married:

I had to have the perfect body. I actually have 5 sections of clothes in my closet so that I have a selection of outfits that meet his requirements for different situations, I have fancy dressy clothes, revealing bar clothes, dressy casual thats sexy but not in a revealing way for when we are out with the kids, jeans and tight shirts for outdoor recreation, and then my sexy comfy clothes for wearing around the house. All to show off my almost perfect but not quite body, that he wasnt happy with anyway.

I was supposed to keep a clean organized house, clean happy perfectly behaved children, all on a schedule that included time for SF at whatever time of day he wanted to.

I was supposed to be the perfectly polite lady in public especially to his family, who was supposed to love me like their own daugher.

I was supposed to be a porn star behind closed doors, and provide him with an unlimited selection of new and exciting activities to keep him from being bored.

I was supposed to be healthy, fit, and naturally athletic, and especially enjoy playing soccer, football, and baseball, and I had to be good at it so that I could provide him with some friendly competetion.

I had to be smart, funny, well-read, and interesting at all times to talk to.

I was supposed to be his pretty arm ornament, and be always clinging to him, so that other men would look and know that he had a perfect and wonderful wife and be jealous. I was not allowed to speak to or make eye contact with any of these men, because then he would be jealous.

I must be able to shoot and clean a gun (which I can actually do lol, I can hit a person sized target from 300 meters), fix cars, and possess many other "boy skills". I should be able to do this without messing up my hair, or chipping my nail polish, so that I can be pretty while I do it. My best guess is that this is some kind of odd muscle car/motorcycle calendar model fantasy...


I guess in there somewhere I would also have to time to do the unimportant things like eating and sleeping too.

He didnt want one woman, he wanted EVERY woman, all rolled up into one. And apparently one that had about 48 hours in every day to actually be able to accomplish all this. He told me once that his dream life would have been to have me and all 5 of the OW's...he would have had a variety of body types and personalities to keep him entertained, like his own little harem.

He's come down a lot off the crazy in the last seven months, since I got him off the porn.

I wonder how many younger men in our age group actually have these impossible to meet unspoken expectations, because porn use is very popular. Most of the women my age that I know complain about their H's watching it so often that it is messing up the SF in their marriages. The women dont say anything though, or get ignored if they do, because it's accepted as "normal and expected" for the men to do this.

It's just sad.

Flip the genders, and that could be me right now. Even at this point of R, I'm still riding the roller coaster. When I'm on the down phase, that's exactly how I feel. The bad part, on the up phase, I don't feel a whole lot differently.

What I hate about all this is that I've turned into a regular Eeyore -- me, Mr. Optimism, the glass-half-full guy. It's almost like I'm punishing myself for whatever transgressions I committed, real or imagined.

And this is despite having an FWW who's truly earned the "F" part of the label. About the only complaint I have is that she won't talk about her deepest feelings and thoughts. (Is this a gender-switch hoot or what?) We had a long discussion about this a month or so ago, and she regards getting into this kind of thing as either boring or a sign of being weak.

There of course is a back-story to all this. Her father died when she was 10, she's been sexually assaulted, and her first two boyfriends both could have been put in jail for things they did to her. (The first is now beyond legal reach and I'm certain warming his toes somewhat South of this plane of existence. I'd certainly throw a log on the fire for his benefit, if you know what I mean. What a POS!)

In short, what I've been through this one time, she's been there/done that four different times. We of course have different personalities. I'm a guy who thinks out loud. I reason better when I hear myself saying things so I can really sort out the wheat from the chaff -- and there's always more chaff than wheat.

I know that what she did still tortures her. Every once in a while I'll be exposed to stimuli and her response to my knee-jerk reaction is heartbreaking to watch. The most recent was when an ad for "The Dilemma" came on TV. I just whirled and walked out of the room to get away from it. When I came back, she was trying to hide it, but she was crying after seeing my reaction to the commercial.

I've told her that I want her to open up to me on stuff like that; that it would help me understand where she's at, but she's totally resistant. She sees it as indulging her weakness. We're talking Stiff Upper Lip without having much English ancestry.

It's nothing new -- she's always been this way, but I do wish she'd loosen up. Ain't gonna happen, and it's unrealistic to expect it. It's not that she doesn't care deeply. I think she's afraid she'll totally break down if and when. I've tried to tell her that I'm the one person she can trust with all this, but she's like one of our cats -- ten years with us and this feline's guard is up all the time.

Funny thing is, this is my only real problem. For the rest of it, she's doing everything by the book -- without actually having read most of the books.

The bottom line here, RFA, is that you're working within a personality framework. No one will ever give you everything you want just exactly how you want it -- and that's mutual. You're not going to be 100% for anyone else either.

I'm a fine one to be giving advice on this topic. Maybe this is as much for my benefit as for yours.

Hang in there.

It's after midnight here in NY, and I couldn't sleep, thinking I might have been imprecise in my prior note. What I probably should have specified that it was your husband in his prior vintage that was abhorent to learn of. I realized that if you and he were in an active "recovery" mode, it should not have been my place to divert you from that.

I'm glad you got the gist of my posting, and I'm sorry about the Dr Pepper.

But if it ever will help, and you want to kick him (hubby, not Dr. Pepper)back on track, feel free to share my thoughts with him!

Thanks for sharing your perspective! It is very difficult when they dont share what is going on with them. It leaves you feeling constantly nervous. My H is a big one for denying negative emotions, it drives me crazy.

I am too emotional for that, but I convert all my "weak" emotions to anger. It's hard for me to admit to disappointment, hurt, fear, etc. so it comes out as me feeling angry. It's often hard for me to even figure out what emotion is under the anger. I am trying hard at it though!

I also have a perfectionism issue, I have very high expectations of myself. So him being upset that I am not "perfect"...well it kind of fed into my own already existing insecurities that I am not good enough if I am not perfect.

It's hard for me to accept that I wont ever be perfect. But you are right, I cant be 100% for him, though I will try to do the best I can. I am finding it comforting that no one else would be either, and if he had left me for an OW they wouldnt have been perfect for him either.

I fit his idea of perfect a lot more closely than any of them ever did, or ever could.

From your post it sounds like your W is remorseful, and that she loves you. Whatever treangressions you committed, real or imagined, are no longer an issue for her. You have become everything she wants, so take pride in that!

And I am a fine one to be giving you advice on that lol. It's so easy to advise others, and so hard to apply it our lives.

It was a good laugh, and I may share your thoughts with him if decides to stick his head back where he had it before!

I did get what you meant, and it wasnt distracting at all. Actually, it helped me to sit down and actually think about how high his expectations were, no one could have been all that for him.

It's nice to know that. I wasnt a failure or a bad wife despite my best efforts.

I feel a lot more peace now. There is nothing about me that just makes me destined to be a failure as a wife, which is how I felt before. I am not broken, or worthless.

It's not a magic pill to fix my life, or my M, but it is a big step in the right direction.

He is coming home the 29th of this month. Less than 2 weeks to go now.

Finally.

So I got the bright idea to try and trim my own hair...which led to trying to cut my own hair...which led to me being in the salon in tears first thing this morning. The stylist said I did a good job and just added some layers but its shorter than I wanted it to be. Not a good thing for a week before he comes home but he has been very sweet about it. I have decided you can tell a lot about a man by the way he responds to stupid decisions and bad hair days.

The good news is that one of my fearless acts for last week was putting in an application for a freelance writer at an online magazine. I found out today I got the job! That feels pretty good, and is a step for me towards being able to support myself so that I am financially able to leave if I have to. I can fearlessly draw my line in the sand about future infidelity and know that I will be ok if I ever have to leave the M. I wont make much but I am getting experience to hopefully be able to move up to something that pays better. That aside it just feels good. I have a skill that is valuable. And my H was very proud of me.

He is doing better about giving me Admiration and that feels good too.

Uhhhhhh, that ain't necessarily gender-specific!

But congrats on the new gig!

My H and I have a long standing difference of opinion, and he wanted me to post and get the perspective of other men.

Ever since we found MB, we have disagreed as to whether SF qualifies as an EN. While we both agree that it is very important in a M, he says it's an EN, I say it's a physical need. It's a need that we both have, we just disagree on the reason why this is important.

I dont feel anything emotional during SF, and this seems to bother him.

I honestly dont understand why it bothers him. We have SF regularly, I am usually the one who initiates it, and we do new things frequently to keep it from getting boring for him. He still isnt satisfied with it because I dont feel any emotion.

I dont get it, and he has tried to explain it and I still dont get it, so he sent me here to ask.

I guess he is hoping maybe someone else will be able to explain it in a way that I can understand. Anyone care to try and clue me in on how this is somehow ruining his enjoyment of SF?

I'm starting to get angry over this, since I am doing everything I am supposed to do and it isnt enough for him.

Indeed, in MB terms SF is an emotional need. I don't quite know how you could study MB and miss that, as it is one of the base 10 emotional needs.

You not feeling emotional connection with SF is an issue, though! That is something you are going to have to explore; why do I not acknowledge the emotional aspect of a need that should only be met by my spouse?

I don't think your alone. Sadly, it took the A for FWW to "get it." Now, on the (very) odd occasion that I am just not capable of engaging, the sense of rejection is a LOT different.

You see, RFA, it's not just some willy-nilly funtime activity. It's not just a physical drive.

SF requires you to be physically and emotionally vulnerable to your spouse. I know that we often joke about it being "easy" for men; find some place warm, preferably moist, thrust, and repeat.

I can tell you that it just isn't so.

If you have no connection, if you are just "letting him do his thing" then there isn't any "F" just "S."


It's not just an act, RFA. It is an expression of love, trust, and commitment to your spouse. It is an expression of vulnerability and shared experience. It is not a romp with some d-bag in a back alley just to "get off."

I don't know. Either you get it, or you don't. But, I would seriously try to figure out the what and why behind that.


*edit*

More food for thought; if you look up Maslow's hierarchy of Needs, you will see your call; sex as a physical need. However, further up the hierarchy, sexual intimacy is also listed. Two separate human needs, being addressed by one act. Both have to be met for happiness - but one of those, the base physical need, can be met without the intimacy.

If you only meet the physical need, you are leaving a gaping hole and not fostering satisfaction.

I chased that feeling of satisfaction for years, and let me tell you it is quality and not quantity.

I should have clarified, I know Dr. H says its an EN. I just figured when I read it that it was just a clever way of motivating women to do it. Just a dressed up PhD version of the "If you really loved me you would do it" line that any girl over the age of 14 or 15 has heard countless times. It's a total clique, but men use it because it typically works, if you can convince a woman that love and sex are somehow tied together then it appeals to her basic instincts to love and nurture so she gives in and does it.

I wasnt raised to see sex and love as connected. It was just something men say to get into your pants, and if you had any self respect as a woman you would NOT be stupid enough to believe it. The best way not to get hurt is to look at sex the way that men do, as physical release. "Think like a man, so you dont get played like a girl".

I dont have a clue about sexual intimacy, I assume you mean the difference between having sex and making love...I was taught making love happens in movies and romance novels, it is a nice thought but it falls in with things like unicorns and fairies...it just doesnt exist in the realm of reality.

I certainly havent seen anything since I grew up to contradict what I was taught.

If sex was such an emotional experience then why are prostitutes and pornography so popular? No emotion to it, but men pay dearly for it because it meets the physical need.

If it's about emotion then why all the complaining (even on the forums here) about wives that wont do oral, or want SF in the missionary position all the time? That's a physical complaint, because it's not as visually satisfying, or as physically pleasurable. If it was going to be emotional, then haiving SF in the missionary position would be the prefered way since it brings you into close physical proximity to your partner and allows eye contact.

My H cant give me an answer, other than that yes sometimes even with wives it's just a physical thing.

I can give him a thousand examples of it being a physical thing only, he cant give me ONE of it being an emotional thing.

I feel like is trying to manipulate me, but I cant figure out why. I am already giving him SF so there really isnt a need for it. The only thing I can think of is that he just doesnt like having a level playing field where both partners actually know whats really going on.

He told me to work on my "man hating issues".

I dont think I have man hating issues, I just refuse to live in some fantasy world. Why would I deny the truth when the evidence is right in front of my face?

Men seem perfectly happy hopping around the bars picking up different girls, no strings attached, no intimacy, just the thrill of the chase.

So no, I guess I just dont get it, and even if I could accept that its an emotional thing I dont have any idea how to make myself feel something for him at those times when I just simply dont.

Wow! I hardly know where to start! I'll have to think about it.



I wasn't raised to see sex and love as connected.
Well, actually, very few of us were. The connection comes after the love is in place. Look, as a young man, my goal, as with any other guy, (Hey, it was the '60s - lighten up!) was to score. "Sex" and "love" were two different concepts, pursued under seemingly totally different environments and schedules. I WANTED sex; I was OPEN TO falling in love. After that happened, the quality, no, the TEXTURE of sex changed, when it eventually occurred with the wonderful girl who eventually became my wife, whose first lover was me, so I can't ask her for help here. You ask for help from guys here, and I really think you need some advice from your fellow girls. I'm so deeply sorry that the linkage hasn't yet formed for you that SEX is a vitally important element of the way two people in love interact.

I was taught making love happens in movies and romance novels,
I'd like to grab your teacher and slap her(?) around - a lot! No one says that the "waves-crashing-on-the-shore, horses-rearing-up, lightning-flashing" connection happens every time a couple "gets busy" - but it can, for anyone. So make your goal to try to get there. (Probably not going to be the first time after hubby gets home from a two-year absence, so don't get you hopes up!) The reason novels and movies portray it that way is because the authors/screenwriters know it can be that way. It's drama, yes, not science fiction!

why are prostitutes and pornography so popular?
Two different issues here, and I'm WAAAY out on a limb with both answers.
Prostitutes - (This might hurt, RFA, so stay with me.) I owned an inner city appartment building, and I became aware that two girls sharing a unit were prostitutes. I asked them, "Why do you have customers." Ignoring the guys that were NEVER going to score non-commercially, their answer was that the married guys that utilized their services did it because their wives weren't interested enough in the activity to make it worth their while to convince them to partake. It was easier to spend the $50 for a BJ from a pro. (The old joke about foreplay being 20 minutes of the husband begging!)
Porn - Possibly related to the hooker question, if the guy is utilizing porn to "take care of business" on his own (and saves the $50). But in a less "active" sense, porn is to guys what those romance novels are to women - an imaginary stimulant to an interst-point in the observer's brain.

I dont think I have man hating issues
Okay, but your husband feels strongly enough to say that he thinks you do. I'm out here in cyber-land, so have nothing to help you with. You, however, have a husband who evidently thinks your .... hate? distrust? disregard?.... of men is interfering with your relationship. You and he must fix this, together.

And saving the roughest for last:

Just a dressed up PhD version of the "If you really loved me you would do it" line that any girl over the age of 14 or 15 has heard countless times.
Yup, assuming you and your husband were both 15, this would have weight. Sometime between 15 y/o and my advanced years however, the vector of this statement in committed, loving couples changes to:

"Since we really love each other you and I would happily do it"

So there is a difference in the way a man looks at SF when it is just with anyone, and when there is love involved. Thats going to require me to completely reevaluate pretty much everything I ever believed. Mostly I thought that the difference was that when they got a woman to love them, that just meant that it was easier to get since she became available to meet the need whenever instead of having to go and chase it down...



Some of it is my mother, but she was physically and sexually abused as a child and has been married six times, five of them to men who were abusive. Now that I think about it that probably makes her not the best source. The rest of it comes from having a lot of guy friends when I was younger...they were often very mean and selfish to the to women they were with. I've seen every dirty and underhanded trick in the book, heard every possible disrespectful comment, but they were young so maybe its just something that comes with love like you said...


Thats part of my pain, because I didnt ever deny him. Not when I was sick, or tired, or when I had to ask him to stop so I could throw up because the morning sickness was so bad...we were back to it less than 2 weeks after my C-section...and I loved him...and he threw me away to sleep with a prostitute and a bunch of bar skanks...

and then he tells me that it just isnt right that I dont feel emotion and that SF is better with it. Really? I cant even process that, logically I understand the addiction and everything, but its really hard not to laugh when he complains about this.


It's distrust. I dont DISLIKE men, but I dont trust them. I was taught early that men lie, hit, steal and cheat. I dont leave my children alone with them, and I get very nervous being around angry men or men that have been drinking. So maybe not distrust, I fear men.
Even the ones I love. You can never tell when the hitting might start, or what they might do to the kids.

I THOUGHT my H was different, but after all the cheating...he is just another mean boy that cant be trusted.

So I need to work on that, not sure how but I will figure it out.

there is a difference in the way a man looks at SF when it is just with anyone, and when there is love involved.

A bit of a disclaimer here - I am not psychologically trained, nor am I fluent in the statistics reflecting the distribution among men of various emotions and sensitivities. I gave you my experience, my current state of consideration of SF with my wife. Keep in mind:

- There are lifelong committed "hounds" out there whose only driving force forever remains that of the prototypical horny 16 y/o.
- The "NeverGuesseds" of today, which husband answered your question, has not been a constant for the almost 39 years we have been together. There were periods of strain, when the children were young and time-consuming, or when she was starting her post-SAHM career, for instance, when "Yeah, okay, let's get this over with," was the response I recieved when I initiated discussion in this arena.

In your quote above you specifically pointed out that this is the way "a man", not "men" see this linked love-sex activity. That would be correct, but add that it is the way it "can" be, not definitively "is".


they were often very mean and selfish to the to women they were with. I've seen every dirty and underhanded trick in the book, heard every possible disrespectful comment,

I am presuming these sad characteristics did not irrefutably define your fiance, and do not currently define your husband. Shall I waste time here describing some of the heinous actions I have been witness to by members of your gender? Yup, all sorts of slimeballs are out there. I didn't marry one of THEM; I would hope you can feel you did not either.


It's distrust. I dont DISLIKE men, but I dont trust them. I was taught early that men lie, hit, steal and cheat. I dont leave my children alone with them, and I get very nervous being around angry men or men that have been drinking. So maybe not distrust, I fear men. Even the ones I love. You can never tell when the hitting might start, or what they might do to the kids.

I was going to ask why, if this has been your long-term opinion of the characteristics of my gender, did you ever MARRY one, when I put together your age and that of your oldest child. Okay, "girls", coming from as dysfunctional a parental environment as you say you did, and having children so young, could be expected to have difficulties in establishing the necessary levels of trust and affection.

But....you have to fix this, RFA. Like it or not, if you're unbreakably linking your husband's CORE values to the worst of the actions of slimeballs you have seen, your marriage really is doomed. And I know he didn't help with his infidelity, but I note that your epilogue (and thank you for your integrity in this) lists yourself as "FWW/BW". If you are determined NOT to be defined as the first, you must accord him the same consideration.

Read your statement. Now, replace that with "conversation." Does it sound just as ridiculous? It should!

As you read through the articles, you will stumble across a part where Dr. Harley talks about giving a woman a testosterone supplement - while on the supplement, her sex drive goes up to a point where she has to "excuse herself several times a day just to get relief." He was alluding to the effect of testosterone on sex drive.

Estrogen, the female hormone, works a different way; if you put men on estrogen, they become more verbal - studies have shown that the verbal and communication centers of the brain become very active under the effects of estrogen.



What a sad upbringing. You've read my description as to how I look at sex with my wife. So, I don't think you thinking very much "like a man," and definitely not like this man. It's very, very sad you carried this view into marriage. I think FWW did as well, though.


That's fantastic. Really. You know what? It's also crap. You aren't an 8-year-old. What mamma told you, you should have learned by now how to separate her personal dysfunctions from reality. Unless, of course, you wish to use her as a model for how you will live.

You obviously have your own mind, right? Use it a little. Ya'll ain't Forrest Gump, is ya? No, you are a 23(4?)-year-old woman. "Mamma always said" should have lost it's weight some time ago - probably along the time you examined her life, and decided that it wasn't what you wanted for yourself or your children.


I am absolutely certain that you have, and chose to ignore it because rather than confirming this belief you hold on to, it disproved it. It's called confirmation bias, and we all do it when we value our own beliefs over truth.


Who's to say that a prostitute isn't providing an emotional experience? Are you saying that they don't provide conversation, admiration, and companionship as well as sex?

You know what they don't do? They don't judge disrespectfully, they don't scream about the dishes, and their financial demands are straight forward.

30 minutes of need-meeting without any love-busting for $250.

Porn? Been around since cave-paintings. Been around as long as written language. And it's always been exaggerated and unrealistic. Meets the physical need portion, and not much else.


Would it? Have you not explored the wonders of spooning? I dare say that spooning actually allows closer contact than missionary. I would say that cowgirl allows eye contact. I would say it takes being vulnerable to break out of the whole missionary-only-with-the-lights-out thing.

Oral? What's wrong with oral? What exactly makes it wrong? What makes it "dirty?" Perception, assumption, judgment.

What makes any act that a husband and wife choose to explore with each other "wrong," or "dirty?"

Nothing if they are within PoJA.


Maybe not specifically - but due to his cruel decision to look outside of his marriage, he knows the difference between sex with some random plug, and the woman he committed his life to, doesn't he?


Ever wonder what it would be like if you only ever ate dry bread every day? Yes, you are being fed - but you aren't being properly nourished, nor do you know what it feels like to be satisfied by your meal.

You are patting yourself on the back for tossing him dry bread, and then asking him why he's complaining?


Stonewall.

No, you refuse to live in the real world, and chose to live in a gray fantasy world of bleakness and misery.

Again, you are only looking for the evidence that confirms your bias, and nothing that disproves it.

YOU HAVE AN ENTIRE MESSAGE BOARD FULL OF EVIDENCE THAT DISPROVES YOUR MISERABLE VIEW, AND YOU CHOOSE TO IGNORE IT.


And women seem perfectly happy laying on their backs for drunken bar douchenozzles.

So what is your freaking point?

Some women trap men with babies, some are gold diggers... blah blah blah blah blah.

Get over yourself, sug.


I guess you don't. I guess you refuse to. You willingly do so.

That's on you.

Number one:
Kudos for admitting such a thing.
Your honesty is to be commended.

Number two:
You are the woman I would not trust around my children for any length of time.
Your beliefs about men are poison to young minds.

Girls will learn to never fully give themselves in marriage (if they ever get as far as married).
Boys will learn they are scum anyway, so why act differently?

YOUR beliefs are dangerous for children to be around. ! . !


How's THAT for a ???

I would much rather my children spend time with a man who loves and respects women, or a woman who loves and respects men.

Please, do not try and say you keep your deeply rooted feelings to yourself.
Don't go there and ruin your honesty.

The purpose of my posting this to you is to show you how having a blanket distrust of the entire male gender makes you untrustworthy.

Think it over.

And .....

I will get back to you NG, since I need to think through what you posted. You made very good points, and I want to give them proper consideration before I answer.

HHH,

Testosterone's affect on the sex drive is not in dispute, it's a well known fact. That's a physical drive for sex, which is, again, not the issue I have. Proving testosterone creates a physical need for sex doesnt have anything to do with whether or not sex is an emotional thing.


What I meant by that was more that I was taught men think a certain way about sex, and that it was safest to adopt that same attitude. From talking to my H and reading posts by you and NG, I am open to the possibility that the way I previously viewed the situation was wrong.




So I guess you brought nothing with you to adulthood that was ever taught by your parents then? You learned nothing about life, or values, or what be cautious of from the people who raised you? I asked the question to see if my thinking was wrong, and raised issues that I believed supported my opinion to get other people's views. I am open to having my mind changed if those views prove my opinion incorrect. The personal attack is not necessary.




If everyone does it, then I dont think me doing it is grounds for you to attack me. At least I am here asking for help, and willing to consider that I may have been wrong.



I'll keep that touching sentiment in mind the next time I have nightmares about my H screwing a prostitute...It's my fault for asking him that once to help with the dishes.

He should have kept her, $250 is a lot cheaper than the $1700 a month it takes to support me and the kids.

What happened to your stance on sexual intimacy? Or does paying some female you care nothing about to spread her legs and pretend she's attracted to you count, as long as you cant tell she's faking?


Dont like spooning, but I do see the point about the vulnerability. I dont see how these men expect to get that vulnerability from a woman who has told them that they are not comfortable with something if they are still pressuring her to do it anyway. Thats not a loving action, since it doesnt take her feelings into account. If getting cowgirl is more important to a man than his wife's comfort or enjoyment, then it's not surprising that she doesnt want to be vulnerable to him. Thats not making love, it's putting his sexual enjoyment as more important that her feelings.

I looked up the definition of sexual intimacy and part of it is being able to deny something to your partner without fear of being ridiculed, pressured or put down. So in my opinion, those men are not seeking intimacy, they are seeking getting off...at her expense. It does not build trust, and trust is a big factor in intimacy.



Nothing is wrong with it...if it's within POJA. I see a lot men trying to get it when their wives are clearly not enthusiastic. That destroys the trust and the intimacy. Again it's not emotional if you are trying to get get off at her expense.


I guess that is the million dollar question isnt it? DOES HE? IDK.


I dont see how. he gets regular sex, at least once a day and often times more. I initiate, I have zero problem giving him oral, or in doing different positions, trying new things. I enjoy the act itself, and I am a responsive partner.

His only complaint is that it doesnt make me feel all gooey and emotional inside. I give him the same thing he got from the OW's and he seemed happy enough with it from them.

Plus I get all emotional over him at other times.



Point me to a thread where the H is getting regular sex and complaining about a lack of emotion in it and I will concede your point. I have seen threads on no sex at all (which is a legitmate complaint, but not my situation), and threads on not getting the sex acts they want (which I think supports my point more than yours, since it destroys intimacy).

{quote]Some women trap men with babies, some are gold diggers... blah blah blah blah blah.[/quote]

I dont need to be married to a woman, so that really isnt of any concern to me. Women can be disgusting human beings, but since I dont need to spend my life with one it doesnt matter if I trust them or not.



I'm not your sug. You dont have to help or post to me if you dont want to, but if you do I am going to have to ask that you do it respectfully. I am not your W, and while I am sorry that you feel this was something lacking in your M, I am trying to fix this issue for my H, so please dont use me as an outlet for your pent up frustrations.


Maybe, but attacking me and talking to me like I am stupid really isnt helping. I'm trying to consider your points as valid, and ignore the bitter and hateful tone of the post, but I dont really see a need for the tone in the first place.

OK, thats a valid point. I wouldnt my kids to grow up around someone who hates women, and I can see in myself the damage that it causes to be raised with someone who has my attitude. I'm thinking about it, and thanks for the hugs.

If you really, honestly, sincerely believe that I was attacking you, I suggest you click the report bottom on the bottom of my post and have the moderators remove it, along with this post.

Why? Because sugar coating and punch-pulling is something for the spineless.





If you think that the buck stops there, I suggest you think a little harder.

We aren't quite reptiles, so even when it comes down to base physical needs, there is emotion involved in how they are or are not met. It can be sex, or it can be sleep, or it can be hunger - when it is met well and pleasantly, we are happy. When it isn't met, we are sad, scared, or grumpy.


No, it wasn't "safest to adopt the same attitude." It has caused you to behave dysfunctionally in your relationships. It wasn't wrong of you to want to protect yourself, but it was like you protected yourself from rape by becoming a rapist...


Some of what I learned wasn't taught, but observed. I learned a lot of what the wrong way to do things was from my parents. Because I rejected their lessons, I protect myself from making their mistakes.

I'm not of a "blame my parents for my failures, thank them for my successes" mindset. I have 2 siblings that are.

I am no victim, and my parents didn't ruin me. If they did, it would be my fault because I allowed it. If you cannot question the world around you, or question those who raised you... if you can't have the strength to question God at times, then why try?




O...k... so you took offense to something you state yourself shouldn't have been offensive, right? Of all the statements made, the reaction to this one is... strange.



Hope that works for you just as well as the idea that the very existence of porn and prostitution disproves that sexual intimacy exists.

You made a claim; sexual intimacy and emotional connection cannot exist because prostitution and porn exist.

I gave you an answer. Don't like the answer? Not my problem. Don't make slippery-slope claims if you aren't prepared for them to explode.


That's all it should take, since there is nothing emotional involved, per your belief, correct?

So what separates a woman paid to do this for a set amount of time from my wife, IF THEIR ATTITUDE IS THE SAME?


How does this fit into your argument that intimacy or emotional connection with sex simply do not exist? This sounds like going from stating it doesn't exist, to stating it exists... BUT NOT FOR MEN! Exactly what are your rules of engagement here?


Is that what they are talking about? Is this your professional opinion, taking all the information in a case-by-case basis into account? Or is this the opinion of a person with a low opinion of men, a dysfunctional view of sex, and a limited amount of information?

You are reaching for only the instances which support your view, not those which disprove it, of which there are probably MORE OF on this board. Those cases are quiet because they don't need help to overcome the pain of dysfunction.



Define "a lot," please provide examples.


I hope he does, or I hope he will. I certainly hope that intimacy exists with his wife, at least. At this time, I wouldn't expect it as a constant, as he kind of spat on it.


Oh, did he? If that was the case, then why is he with you? Ooooh, that's right, because what they gave him was crap. Because the whole pull with them was crap. RFA - you see being emotionally engaged and intimate with your husband as some kind of weakness, but trying to emulate his affair partners is acceptable? Really?




Like?



The emotional aspect is the "F" in SF. I would be willing to gamble that half of the men out there complaining about SF are actually complaining about the emotional aspect, and are just too "manly" to own up to it.

You want an example - any man who has made the statement, or has felt like, he is just "using his wife's body to masturbate." One of the infidelity letters on this site states that.

All this crap about frequency, and oral, and positions - it's all men looking for the right thing in all the wrong places.

They aren't saying it's the emotional connection, but I would bet money, and be rich, that this is more the root cause than any other issue.


I dont need to be married to a woman, so that really isnt of any concern to me. Women can be disgusting human beings, but since I dont need to spend my life with one it doesnt matter if I trust them or not.[/quote]

Sorry about that one. It's a general frustration; MEN blah blah blah! Well, WOMEN blah blah BLAH!

I really think it's... retarded. Here's my basic view; women are functionally insane. Men are functionally retarded. Each must be the other to exist together. Women have to be crazy to not see how stupid men are, men have to be stupid to not see how crazy women are.

Whatever. C'est la vie.


Who said anything is lacking in my M now? It's still on the mend, and I'd say a long way to go, but I don't really find anything lacking. If that is enough to make up for betrayal, time will only tell...


Text is poor at conveying tone and context, and more often than not, the translation is up to the reader. I can't control that. Again, I don't sugar coat or pull punches to protect myself from being misinterpreted. That's a flaw in situations like this, or any situation in which a rebuttal or counterpoint is being made.

You have both the right and the choice to be angry or offended.

Don't become your damaged mother.

((( HUGS )))

PS:
Continued KUDOS for honesty !!!

RFA-
On balance, I regret attempting to work through these issues with you because what could have been of value to you has been hijacked by a female-hating, "never-got-over-his WW's-actions" bully, whose idea of establishing the value of his acid-filled comments is to taunt you to notify the mods and attempt to get his garbage burned.

I would ask that you refrain from requesting that action, because in future discussions, when someone asks about the range and depth of the emotional toll on a BS, I'll direct them to read his "contributions" to this thread.

How slimy. You take me out of context, and use that as ammunition to make assumptions and elevate yourself.

Your claim that I am a female-hater is based off of what? The generalities I stated were not my belief, but an illustration of how ridiculous and unfounded gender based generalities are.

Whether or not I have "gotten over WW's actions" is neither relevant, nor my basis of approach. I regard RFA as a BS, even though she has corrected me that she is both BS/WS. Additionally, where I am in my own M is why I regard it as in recovery and not recovered. No, I am not "over it" nor do I project it against other posters, even less so to the OP of this thread. What I am, is working with MB principals with my FWW in hopes that through time and action, we will heal.

If I share my experiences, it is to align perspective. Beyond that, DJ behavior is avoided with my wife, I am filling no lovebanks here.

Pick someone else to make you look good in comparison, I will not be your scapegoat.

It's not a problem NG. That being said though my H has been keeping track of the posts dealing with this issue and he feels we have gotten off subject with the problem he wants me to deal with.

He knows about my past and my trust problems, and he understands them. I misunderstood apparently what he meant about dealing with my issues. He wants me to deal with my misconception that men do not feel emotion during sex, since that is what causes me to detach from him emotionally at that time. The rest of it is not something that he feels is an issue in our M.

I understand that getting a background on why I have always believed that is important, but dragging all this up is making me sad and upset.

I can continue to discuss ways to be more emotionally involved in the SF part of our relationship, but he is not enthusiastic about me discussing past issues any more.

I am convinced from what has been said to me that I was wrong on this subject, and that I need to find a way to emotionally connect with him. So if anyone has any ideas on how to accomplish that I would be grateful. Something action based if possible.

I need to stick to that, because if I get upset again then H is going to ask me to lock the thread.

And HHH we are arguing in cirles, I dont need to report you to the mods. Things come across wrong in print, and this subject is an emotional one for me, and I suspect it might be to you as well. I admit to defeat, as long as you dont compare me to Forest Gump again.

I am convinced from what has been said to me that I was wrong on this subject, and that I need to find a way to emotionally connect with him.

Wonderful! In just over a week, your best "study buddy" in this subject will be home. Good luck. Keep us advised as to how things develop, and check in with anything you think we can assist with.

Thank you for being graceful, and pointing out where you feel I got off course. The reference was for contrast rather than comparison.

We cannot change our past, but we can DECIDE how we let it effect us. We have the choice to accept or reject our life lessons, to take our failures as an opportunity to learn, or we can blame others and deny our responsibility for our own actions.

I really think you ARE trying to do that, but like any life change, it is a process.

Well, WOW !




Behavior based change.
Go for it.

I'll be thinking about this and get back to you when I get a genius idea.

See what happens when you are honest with yourself?
You get REAL.

I have a starter suggestion.
It's really dumb.
But, do it anyway.

Go buy a copy of the children's book

"The Velveteen Rabbit"

When you can, read it aloud TO your DH, in bed.
You must read to DH slowly and with feeling.
Every word counts.

Sounds like fun homework to me

Not everything considered to be "working on the marriage" needs to feel like root canal.

Thank you everybody.

Pep, I like the idea, is there a special reason why you chose that book?

Hell yes, there is a special reason.

Mr. Pep read to me from that book at our wedding.
It's a special book.

You both will enjoy it.
It will draw you closer, especially in the intimacy of bedtime reading.

You'll see.

Plus, you have a 5 year old.
You need this book.

ack, phone ate half my post, repost in the AM.

Glad to see from the last posts that the view has shifted!

I still decided to write what I thought by page 5:

As I understood it, your H's motive is not only and foremost having more fulfilled SF himself. It seems that it is also/more of his motive for YOU having more fulfilled SF (I think you somehow failed to perceive this aspect). This is not only care for himself, but also/more care for you.

It is like trying to get someone to open their eyes and see the beauty of sth, or teaching someone to listen to a special style of music, or perhaps teaching someone to enjoy a special kind of gourmet food. Have you ever tried to show anybody a thing/phenomenon you find miraculous and wanted so bad that they would see it the same way too, so you can appreciate it together?

Whether you see the teacher as obtrusive or benevolent, is a matter of POV... and most likely comes down to the very same distrust issue.

Excellent point. Nothing builds my husband up more than to really know he connected with me physically and fulfilled this need for me. Nothing depletes his love bank faster and his sense of manhood for that matter, than to not be able to please me.

This is the emotional need defined. It's not about the sexual act, and yet it is all about it. A 15 year old just wants to experience it and has no emotional personal validation at that age. But a man who is bonded to a woman wants to rock HER world, and nothing defeats him faster than to fail at that.

His failure to stay faithful will probably eat at him for the rest of his life in this wise - that he contributed to and validated his mother-in-law's warped and twisted opinion of men by cheating.

And Pep - thank you for pointing out the impact of our dysfunctional beliefs on our children. It's why I was grateful to have a son instead of a daughter because my mother's warped and twisted body image carried forward to me and I haven't been able to shake that and be free of it. I shudder at the idea of this going one more generation. My husband adores me just as I am and only wishes for me to be happy with myself.

Hi RFA. Can you share a sexual experience you've had where you remember feeling especially fulfilled, satisfied and intimately connected?

When is pysical togetherness special and happy for you?

What aspects fulfill you? What do you enjoy?

Sparkler and KA, those are good points for me to consider.

Delta, I will think about it and get back to you!

Dear Rising
I doubt it is necessary, and perhaps it is unwise, to share with the MB forum any sexual experiences.
I think it is wise to think about your experiences, then share those experienced memories with your husband.

Caution is advised.
Especially when you are trying to build intimacy with your husband.
Sharing intimacies with strangers should be a

Right here, you had the golden ticket. However, you chose to focus on a single aspect which fortified your position at the time.

This sentence is very, very general - and at the same time, very true.

Simply reread the sentence, and replace deny with confess or request. It works the same with either of those. And exercising all 3 manifestations of that sentence creates intimacy.

These things are built into MB through PORH and POJA.

So, let's begin with tossing aside intimacy with SF to begin with. Have your and WH/BH done the Personal History Questionnaire? If you haven't, I highly suggest doing so. Each of you should lay down anything and everything that you possibly can; any deep, dark, humiliating secret should be open to the other. If you once stole a candy bar when you were 6 and he doesn't know, tell him. If he tied a dog to a city bus once, he should tell you.

In the beginning of this, FWW and I spent many nights telling each other our life stories, and listening intently - even though we already knew them. I had a few skeletons in my closet that I let out - it was some pretty hairy stuff, but I gave up the goat because I was trusting her to not judge me. That is creating intimacy.

Make a habit; no matter what you are doing, sit next to each other and hold hands at all times. That contact creates intimacy.

Your second golden ticket began this thread; confidence. However, it is not confidence in yourself. It is not confidence in your spouse. It is confidence with your spouse. It is the confidence that you can be yourself, and you can be vulnerable with your spouse, and not be judged, or denied.

Now, you can do something simple, like googling "intimacy building exercises" and look over things there. Some of the ideas you find are going to sound ridiculous, but you'd be surprised with the results.

Random, yet related question; have you ever read, viewed, or attended a performance of "The Vagina Monologues?" I happened to be in a writing class in the quarter in which that instructor was directing the local production. When it was performed, I took FWW and my MIL. It's an amazing piece of work that will make you laugh, cry, and think.

In relation to this, view or read the skit "Because he liked to look at it." I did some searching, and there are videos of this portion being performed on youtube.

What happens in that skit - the transformation that occurs, is intimacy.

I asked FWW to read your thread and post her perspective, but she chose not to. So we had a little exchange where I searched for what process occurred for her to stop compartmentalizing intimacy and SF as two separate things (which they can be, but if they are never together, that is dysfunctional).

I expected to find a process, and instead found a lightning strike. It was the aforementioned skitx10 - not single area focused - and total vulnerability on both sides.

You have identified why you hold back, what thought process make you do so, and what factors taught you to do that. Time to let it go.

It's ok Pep, I took the post to mean more that I should think about if I had ever had such an experience and try to figure out what had contributed to it. I was in a rush and didnt have to think if I had ever experienced it. If I had then the advice would have been a good starting point, if not then that's something else for me to think on. I wasn't planning on posting the specifics, just a general as to whether I had or had not ever experienced a feeling of intimacy.

It was a good question, since it did get me thinking. I have, with my H when we first got married, but after our first DDay it just...went away. It was diminshed before that, because I had so many suspicions and doubts, but when I had proof, it died.

I havent always been this way, not even in my attitude towards men. Lots of IC as a teenager, I had gotten past most of those issues. I loved him, and I trusted him. When he hurt me, I think it was just easier and helped to dull the anger and the pain if I could dismiss it as just something men did. He cant help it, men are just like that.

My options at that point were to go back to just thinking men were not trustworthy, and be able to spread my anger across the entire gender or...

acknowledge that men werent like that, HE was like that. HE was a liar, HE was a cheater, HE was the one who prefered sex with skanks and prostitutes to making love to me (and yes he did tell me that).

Easier, so much easier, to blame them all, than it was to deal with him as a person.

I dont know what to do to help that, because nothing that we do has changed. It's not like I can look back and think that we used to things differently, so we need to try those things again. I can tell when he is trying, when it seems that he is trying to give me emotion, or trying to get it from me, and all I feel is...just numb. First it was pain, but the longer the lying and cheating went on the pain faded and I just feel nothing.

I feel sometimes like all of this has killed part of my soul. It's just not there anymore, so it cant feel. I love him, but its...superficial. It doesnt touch the places in my heart that it used to. I dont think I have those places anymore.

HHH,

I printed out some intimacy building exercises and watched the monologues. I have lots of things going on in my head right now, so I will try and sort them out and post sometime tomorrow.

HE was like that. HE was a liar, HE was a cheater, HE was the one who prefered sex with skanks and prostitutes to making love to me (and yes he did tell me that).

The last time I commented on this you snorted Dr. Pepper. In consideration of your keyboard, I'll refrain from saying anything except......

Where do you and he stand on this? What I mean is:

Have you ever (RH, remember) clearly and dispassionately told him this is hurtful to you? (I won't presume to imply whether it would be a marriage-ender, as you have family dependencies that must be heeded.)

Has he heard you (not just listened to you) and grasped the remarkably destructive effect on your future of his preferences? (to say nothing of the dismissive arrogance evident in actually telling you!)

Has he addressed this? Or, has he developed plans, to your satisfaction, to address it in the immediate future?

I love him, but its...superficial. It doesnt touch the places in my heart that it used to. I dont think I have those places anymore.

You're 23! And have been through a less than stellar rearing, and some.....mistreatment?.....in your marriage. Those "places" don't disappear. What happens is the primitive "lizard" brain we all retain is smart enough to treat "emotional" damage in the same way as "physical" damage, and declines to expose the injured area to further assault. Get your husband to convince you that he is repaired, and start rebuilding the connections you once had with him (note below). This site has many of the tools to do that.

You have 50+ years ahead of you (to say nothing of the fact that you are tasked with imputing to your babies your view on life/love) and it would be a crime to go through that lifetime....empty.

Note: And if he cannot/will not do the work on himself, and convince you that it is done, you may have to face the ugly fact that, "In some cases, 'recovery' is only achieved through 'dissolution', and you'll have the opportunity of establishing a better relationship elsewhere.

All excellent points NG, and it ties in very well with my thoughts on the post HHH made to me last night.

When I started this thread, my goal was to be able and be the woman I was before all this mess started. I was fearless, strong, confident, and capable. I was the fighter, the protector, the one people ran to fight for them, and I sure didnt take crap off of anybody.

When he hurt me, I was so ANGRY. All of my hurt turns to anger, because it's safer to feel anger than hurt. I couldnt fight him, because I loved him and I did not want my children raised in a broken home. So I turned all that anger away from him. I pushed it out to men in general, and turned it in and hated myself instead.

He said I was "so angry", but he saw so little of it, a drop in an ocean. I turned the mean things, the cruel things, he said to me into weapons I used to hurt myself. My goal was to protect my kids from the step-parent shuffle, and protect him from my anger.

So I lost myself instead. I couldnt feel intimate with him, because I didt recognize the woman I became. How could I share anything of myself with him if I didnt know who I was, or have any respect for myself?

I was only able to take so much self-hatred, and when I started thinking seriously about hurting myself I just shut down. I had to turn myself off emotionally to protect myself.

Once he stopped being cruel, and we started trying to heal, I felt like any time I started to feel stronger the M started to get weaker. Every step I took back towards being my strong, confident, capable self was a step away from him. If it's not my fault, and all men are not that way...then what the hell am I still doing with him?

Every thing he did, everything he said...cruelty and weakness. I had to become someone I dont even like to stay married to him, and it felt like recovering the M and recovering ME were mutually exclusive. If I am strong and confident then I have no place in my life for that loser.

I cant stay weak forever, I cant let him use and abuse me forever. I still dont want my kids raised in a broken home, but our home WAS broken, even though we were still married, because I was broken and our M was broken. Better to divorce him and let the kids see an example of a happy healthy and whole mommy.

He wants the woman he married back, and I am ready to have that back too. I want to be able to laugh and be whole and happy. I chose to recover myself. I am open to recovering the M, but I wont do it if it means losing me...not ever again.

So he has a choice, he can either be the partner I need him to be, or he can continue to be a slimeball. I have no place in MY life for a slimeball. So if he wants to be married to me, then I had better not see any signs of that guy coming back. There are no wayward aliens allowed in my M. So if that THING that inhabited his body for long comes back...I'm gone.

I can show him ME if he wants intimacy, the person that I used to be and take pride in. He may not like it, me being strong, but he can chose to go if he wants. I will keep my side of the street clean and follow MB principles, but I wont be his doormat. I have nothing to fear anymore, because whatever he choses to do I will still be whole and happy. If the alien comes back...well I can do better.

Amazing what is there when we brush aside the curtain of anger and resentment for a minute, isn't it?

The last few sentences in your post is the one that needs to be your mantra; you are there, you aren't holding back, and the ball is in his court.

It's not easy to lay it all out there to the person who betrayed you, but it's part of the demonstration of your willingness to heal, and the M you want to create.

I'm glad you understood my question because I wasn't asking for you to post specific sexual details.

I was encouraging you to recall positive moments of true intimacy -- not sexual positions or preferences -- when you felt fulfilled.

I got the impression from your posts that you do what you can to meet your H's need for SF in terms of quantity. I was hoping you might focus more on what YOU enjoy ... so your need for SF is actually fulfilling and your H's is too.

Yeah, those places are still there. And you will know they're there when you fall back in love.

It will take a true commitment to the marriage from both of you, establishing extraordinary precautions so there's no chance an outsider is able to meet either of your needs.

It is his responsibility for you to fall back in love with him, and the same is true in reverse. As a starting point you have to feel safe and secure.

And once that happens, and you commit to spending the recommended hours of undivided time together, your love will grow. You will desire more and more real intimacy.

My point earlier was for you to think about the times -- hopefully recent times even -- when you desired intimacy, when you enjoyed your physical together and felt fulfilled.

Again, I wasn't looking for you to share sexual details.

I was hoping you my be able to identify what the conditions were that made you feel secure enough to desire a deeper connection.

Spoken like the very young woman you are.
I am old enough to be your very young, very hip, stylish grandmother.

This is the problem with too much navel-gazing.
Self-focus is not a recovery plan.

Just so you know where I stand on this. ~~~>

If you are actively WORKING your MB recovery plan , then some occasional navel-gazing is not harmful.

If you are not actively working your MB recovery plan, naval-gazing is another selfish indulgence, much like a WW's affair.

Harsh?
Maybe.
True?
Ab-so-freak-en'-loot-lee

Reread your quote above and explain to me how this is helpful to recovery?
It ain't.

If any MB folk think it IS helpful to recovery, explain it to me in MB terms.
MB concepts.

READ THIS


"Complaining in marriage"

MB concepts will bring you back to life.

READ THIS:


"Requirements for recovery after in affair"

IN PARTICULAR:

If my calendar is accurate, tomorrow is your reunion with your husband.

Good Luck, RFA. We're all pulling for you two to fight through this.

God bless you.

Thanks NG, and you are right, he is going to be home tomorrow night. He leaves there in a few hours, its a long trip, about 24 hours with layovers and everything. I am very excited!

Pep, I am working the program. Well as best as we can since he isnt here. I just think that it helps to have a basic understanding of what is causing the problem, because it sheds light for me on what actions might be helpful. I cant follow PORH, and share everything about myself with him if I dont understand myself.

There are lots of reasons why I could have been feeling emotionally disconnected from him during SF. Maybe a need he wasnt meeting as well as he could be, maybe LB's that need to be addressed. In my case it was stuff in my head I needed to work out. He has been meeting my needs but with my thoughts and opinions being like they were most of it was just rolling off of me.

I think a little bit of self-analysis can be helpful, if only in figuring out exactly what actions to take. But I have a deep need to understand everything, so maybe it's just me.

If I was using the info to just run around basing my actions on my whim of the moment then that would not be a plan for recovery. If I am using my info to help me figure out how to match my emotions to my plan then I dont see how thats hurtful to anything.

I have another question though for everyone, it came from the Men vs. Women thread in MB 101 (I know thats not the thread title but thats what I think of it as). I was going to post the question there but I was busy at the time and the thread moved on so I am going to ask it here.

There were lots of statements made by the men that ANY rejection of SF is hurtful and damaging to his feeling of being loved and desired. Thats distressing for me, since my H has this habit of asking me in the middle of the day when the kids are awake. I am NOT enthusiastic about meeting that need at that time. I have told him that, and he keeps asking. I always go to him when the kids are asleep for SF, and we usually average at least once a day. Am I in the wrong for denying him SF at certain times, or only if I am denying him all the time? From some of the posts on the other thread, it kind of seems like any denial at all is seen as a very bad thing.

Edited to add that if I have asked him earlier in the day to wait until after the kids are asleep he will not initiate SF that night, and he rejects me if I try to initiate.

I dont have a problem with daytime SF if the kids are not home or napping, just not while they are awake, its a small apartment, and I am afraid they would be able to hear us. They are little, they wouldnt understand and it might be frightening to them, and I think it would be worse if they did understand. Nobody wants to hear that from other people espeacially their parents. What if they get hurt because I'm not watching them? I just cant do that.

I think that is a good, honest discussion to have with your H, RFA. And from there, you can PoJA solutions. Maybe you can plant the seeds and take the lead?

As a BS, a lot is going to roll off. There is a lot of self-protection involved.

Would you believe me if I said that the gamble of allowing yourself to be open to your H is well worth it?

Some of my worst days have ended on an upnote because of my willingness to be open and vulnerable to FWW.

It's worth it, RFA. Totally worth it.

There were lots of statements made by the men that ANY rejection of SF is hurtful and damaging to his feeling of being loved and desired.

That's probably a more severely worded version of what was said than was intended.

Even the most unevolved knuckle-dragging males can be made to understand that some occasions more lend themselves to the possible of "gettin' jiggy" than others.

The key for a couple is managing the opportunities and the urges. The declined answer is best not transmitted as "NO!", but as "Not now, let's make sure we leave time......."

Or, the usual less-driven partner might unilaterally initiate when the more-driven partner is not expecting anything.

Hint: I LOVED "waker-uppers", especially when the kids didn't have to arise on "snow days", if you take my meaning.

Just checking in. Things are going ok. There was some difficulty at first getting used to being together and trying to figure out how to live in the same house. I have never lived with anyone before I married him, and he has never really been around so it was strange to me. Things like having him in the bathroom when I am brushing my teeth seem uncomfortably intimate and sort of invasive, but we are working through it.

The kids both had the flu when he got here, and he got sick in the first few days, then DS had 2 weeks of snow days and we got snowed in for almost 2 weeks, so that just added to the stress. Getting better now though, and we are getting in a schedule and relaxing somewhat.

Triggers were hard at first, just having him here was enough to set me off, but now I am trying to intiate some type of affection when the bad thoughts start, a hug or just holding him hand. It helps to keep my mind focused on the present and makes me feel a bit more connected to him.

Keep working this through.
Be open to these changes.
You will be required to make adjustments that, at first, feel weird.



As recent retirees, H & I are getting used to spending SO MUCH time together.
That change, although positive, was also stressful.

My very sincere advice:

Bring your sense of humor to every new & weird situation.
Laugh at yourself a lot.
Smile a lot.
Ask "What is the lesson here?", a lot.

Thanks Pep, its reassuring to know that it's normal to have an adjustment period that can be stressful. We went from him never being here to him being here all day every day so it was a major change for us. We still have some things that we need more work on but I really think we have handled it so much better than we would have done without MB.

Valentine's Day has been nice for us so far, I bought him a new big flatscreen TV, so he seems pretty happy. I got a pretty new necklace, roses, and a new vacuum cleaner which was actually pretty nice of him since he knows that I hate my old one.

We were talking last night and we have a question that we were wondering about. We have been spending a lot of time together, UA time is 3 or 4 hours a day, and we were wondering what sort of results we should be expecting? If we keep following the program I know the goal should be romantic love, but is it going to be similar to the feeling we had when we got married or does it feel different somehow?

We both feel in love but it is not as strong as when we got married. Does using MB give you back the feeling that you have when you first fall in love? After everything we have been through I dont think either of us knows quite what to expect.

Awesome!!!!


I want to hear your answer in... hmmm.... 3 months time. IF you maintain that level of UA time.

I bet you knew the answer to this question before you hit "Submit".

Relationships change over time. The salient point of the MB program is that by working the program a couple can actively foment changes in a positive direction. You actually, given your relative youth, have an advantage that us "oldsters" never had - you can start NOW to ensure that you (or your husband) will not be here in twenty-five years, starting off a thread:

I could have written that, and probably 80% of the posters here could have as well.

What I'd like to read from you in twenty-five years is:

How about we make a bet? I'll bet you that I'm still kicking in 25 years, and your bet is that you can write that thread. You should take that bet in a heartbeat. In 25 years I'll be pushing 84 and much of the factors that would interfere are largely out of my hands. You have a much greater degree of control over ensuring that you can hold up your end of the bet.

Do we have a bet? Name your stakes!

I do know that it wont be the same, I guess maybe I meant more if it would be similar or if it would always feel less...broken...damaged.

It's going decent here. We took a trip out of state to visit his parents, which was nice since it gave us a little vacation.

Life seems to be handing us a new start. I lost my wedding ring a few days after he got home, it's been too big for me for two years and it has never come off and that day we were out shopping and the next thing I know it was just gone. We looked forever but couldnt find it so I got a new one. The old one was a painful reminder of broken promises.

We move into a new apartment the first of next month, this one has too many triggers for both of us.

We started going to church, and now our priest wants us remarried in the church as soon as possible...

I guess I am ok wih everything moving on and starting to get normal except that last one. I know that the church sees us as living in sin because we didnt get married in the church, but I dont know if I am ready for that. I dont think I am prepared to make that kind of commitment. I dont trust him, and I wasnt planning on doing that until we were fully recovered.

We have the date for the church wedding as sometime in May. Hopefully that will give us enough time for me to feel more secure with it. Started my classes tonight and I will get to be a confirmed Catholic in a little over a year. It's a necessary step in that process, but it's scary.

Hoping to start the MB online program soon, maybe next month if everything falls into place with the finances.

Surely between God and Dr Harley I can get past the bitterness...

The most freeing thing you can do with the bitterness at this time is just to accept that you are bitter, that you have a right to be bitter, and that you will continue to be so until you see marked improvement consistently over time.

It's not about getting past it, it's about getting the things needed to eventually just let it go - forgiveness and just compensation.

GET THAT UA TIME IN!!!

Been awhile since I posted, and H suggested that I post an update on our progress

He has finished CDL school and has truck driving job that is strictly local with no overnights away from home, which is a huge relief for me. He is able to meet my need for financial support and still keep up what I feel is the most vital of our EPs. We are trying our best to get our UA time in every day, and most days we are pretty successful though there is a day now and then that the kids are cranky or sick, we just make up for it later if that happens. We spend almost all of our free time together and are very rarely away from each other unless he is at work and then he calls me on his breaks and sends me texts as he has time during the day. He drives a set route for his job so I can check the GPS on his phone at any time and see if he is where is supposed to be and that is so reassuring to me.

We are doing a pretty good job of meeting EN's and most of the time we do well at avoiding LB's, when they start creeping in we try to sit down down together and evaluate to figure out what is going wrong and get back on track. We are finding that the LB's can be very sneaky and subtle and leave you feeling bad without really knowing why so that is still a work in progress for us. I guess it always will be, with LB's and everything else MB, things change and life throws new stuff at you and the best you can do is just be honest and keep working together. We have been working on our intimacy and have come up with several things that seem to work extra well at keeping us feeling close, and working as a team so thanks to all of you who suggested that I look up intimacy building exercises because doing those regularly really helps make it easier to focus on caring for and protecting your spouse.

Something else that really helped us is that between our tax return and his severance pay from the military we have gotten quite a bit of extra money since he got back and spent very little of it in ways that were really financially wise, instead we spent it on fun UA activities, doing family outings and trying to make happy memories. We decided that after going through so many bad and painful things that fixing our M and refilling each others LB$ was more important in the long run than filling up our savings account. It made such a huge difference in the way I feel about him, and sometimes I catch him looking at me with this silly happy look on his face. He was laying in bed with me a few nights ago and he told me that he is just happy that he has such an amazing wife when he knows he does not deserve me. In the long run I think it was money well spent.

We used part of the money and got things for our vow renewal in the church in June. We were trying to schedule it for when his family is coming here to visit, and June 4th was the only day that the priest had available. I realized after we left his office that June 4th was the one year anniversary of the big DDay when he revealed the four other ONS that I had not caught him at yet. So we decided to reclaim the day in a big way and have the ceremony we didnt get to have with our wedding. The priest gave us permission to make it as big and fancy as we wanted to so he got a nice suit and I got the big white dress and we are going to take that day back and make it ours like it should be.

It's still a roller coaster, and we both still slip and make mistakes and have bad days, but its getting very much better. The last bad day I had I ended up in the bathtub crying, nothing he did wrong just a bad trigger day, and he came and got in the bath with me with all his clothes on and just held me while I cried. Not perfect yet, but still trying and getting better.

Hi Ashes,

I am glad things are going pretty well. Thanks for checking in and updating your thread. It sounds as if you will have a pretty good party the beginning of June.

When my H and I were attending our pre-marital counseling 29 years ago, the Chaplain had us complete an exercise. He had us write down a list of 25 things to do for less than $25. Of course, with a current understanding of MB concepts, I realize that what we were doing was coming up with ways to meet UA time with RC without breaking the bank and creating financial issues. Just a suggestion for later when the tax return and severance pay $$ are unavailable.

Keep up the good work on your marriage.

AM

That's excellent advice AM, he had to change jobs to one that doesnt pay as well because he was working 17 hour days and drving an hour each way for work. The new job has better hours and we do get family and UA time now but we have to cut some expenses to do it.

Things are still going pretty well but I am not healing as quickly as I would like and my H is getting frustrated with me. There are things that trigger me that I used to do for him and can't do anymore without resenting him, and he has started to complain about it. I don't know what to do, I want him to be happy and to meet his needs but I can't do these things without suffering through vivid and painful thoughts of the OW's.

He seems to be getting more impatient with me, wanting his pre-A W back, and I don't know if that is possible. I can heal, but I don't know that I will ever be the same exactly. I am more cautious and guarded, and I look at things with more cynicism. I don't want to be his pre-A wife, I was naive and foolish. I can be a good wife, but not the same, wounds like these leave scars.

Just feeling frustrated today.

So we decided to reclaim the day in a big way and have the ceremony we didnt get to have with our wedding. The priest gave us permission to make it as big and fancy as we wanted to so he got a nice suit and I got the big white dress and we are going to take that day back and make it ours like it should be.

Way cool!

The last bad day I had I ended up in the bathtub crying, and he came and got in the bath with me with all his clothes on and just held me while I cried.

Even cooler! The man shows potential RFA!

He does, in a lot of ways. I'm not saying there aren't still things we need to work on because we do, but we are trying and things are getting better. I am just so frustrated with how slowly healing is going. I want to be able to be with him and not have thoughts of the past in my way.

I guess the only thing to do is just take those things back too. Take them and make them mine. It might suck the first time, or even the first several times but if I put enough memories of us in my head then it will cover up the skanks that are in there now.

No sense in letting the past ruin any part of my future I guess.

Ash, I am glad to hear a positive update! Can't wait to hear how things go in June (wow - just a couple weeks away!)


I don't think anyone who has been through infidelity can ever expect to be the same. I think no matter what side of the equation you are on, you will always have scars. Depending on both parties' committment to R, some scars may heal pretty good...you may only see them when the light hits them in a certain way, or if you rub your hand over them just right.

Others may heal, but they're always there. You may be able to cover them with a bandage, or makeup, or hide them under your clothes, but the job of your spouse - particularly if they are the one responsible for those scars - is to be extra tender with those scars. They should ensure that they don't do anything to aggravate old injuries. They should give physical therapy when needed, because they should render care to the person they hurt.

And despite the scars we may have, and those that we may give, we continue to see our spouse as the most beautiful human being alive.

Taking stuff back and making things yours...Ash, I think you are gonna be A-OK.

I am ok, and it took me a long time to get to being ok. I am just not moving past that. I would like to be great, or even good, but I'm not. Just ok.

I dont cry everyday, and I am not suicidal. I dont hate my H and I dont sit awake at night contemplating smothering him with his pillow. I dont give too much time to wishing pain and humiliation on the OW's.

If H wants to talk I talk, if he wants a hug I give him one, if he holds my hand I let him, if he wants SF I try to always respond lovingly and enthusiastically. I do the best I can to meet his needs, make him happy.

But that's where it stops.

If I take something back in my mind it means it has become something I can do or somewhere I can go, or even a date on the calendar I can live through without crying and feeling sick. The things he did with them are things I dont feel I will ever be able to compete with. He told me they were better at it and thats how I feel. They dont become mine really, just things that I can live through. Maybe that's not such a triumph, but it's better than avoiding them forever. I think he said too much to me for me to ever feel like those things could ever be unblemished. They have nasty OW prints all over them.

Kind of like if they had spilled ink on my favorite dress, I might be able to scrub at the stain enough that I could wear it again and no one else would know, but because I knew where the stain used to be I still notice the last little bit of discoloration that wont go away. It would be mine enough for me to wear it, but it would never be free completely of the stain they put on it.

I have written many posts and even emailed with Dr. Harley trying to get past the things he said, and believe they were just fog talk. Nothing worked. Not completely.

I still feel second best to them, but I am not hurt by that much anymore. I still believe that even if loves and desires me that I am just not going to be as good as they were, but I have accepted that. It's just part of life now.

He tries to help me get past that, and maybe if he continues to try for a long time then things might change. I dont know if they will or not. He lied about so much for so long that I dont know if I will ever trust it.

If I dont it's ok, I know I am doing the right thing for my kids. I hope that one day I will, but I dont know how much of what I feel is permanent scars and how much will change with time and care from him.

I spent a long time hating him so much I honestly wished he would meet with some horrible accident and die slowly and painfully so where I am now is a lot better than where I was then.

It would be nice if I healed more, but if this is as recovered as I ever get it's better than I expected it to be.

Take that, and flip it. Subtract any knowledge of infidelity.

I've been there.

I'm kind of in the same place. It's weird.

I had meant to post to you earlier about what you said about your H climbing into the bathtub with you fully clothed while you cried.

This was a moment in your life, and yet, I couldn't help to picture a moment in a chick-flick which would make a lot of women tear up and say "I want a man like that."

Our moment was when FWW was in labor with DD11, and they put her in the whirlpool at the hospital. This was long before I had any aspirations at being a nurse myself. I went down with her to the whirlpool room, and without hesitation or worry, I stripped down and joined her. Apparently this isn't a common thing, as my sister heard the nurses commenting positively on it in the hallway.


Don't get stuck on those things that "you can't give him." He is there because of the untold, innumerable things that they could never be - his wife, the mother of his children, his life-long companion.

I think you have more to offer than you give yourself credit for.

I have lots of those moments, my H is just that kind of guy. He was a soldier and has a black belt in a field of martial arts I can't even spell, MVP any time he plays a sport...but he remembers birthdays and anniversaries, buys flowers and presents for no reason, is a wonderful and attentive father (we stole the idea for Daddy Dates from the Men's Recovery thread), he helps to clean and loves to cook, is a good dancer, and so much more. It's a good balance, still masculine but excellent at the softer more sensitive things as well. Romantic I guess would be the right word for it, and he helps and supports me. He just has a lot of positive qualities.

He would be a very nearly perfect spouse if it wasnt for the cheating and the addictions and the lying. I was the proudest wife imaginable when I married him, now I am ashamed. Not really of him, but that I wasn't good enough for him and now the whole world knows it.

And yeah I know, he is still here, so I must be doing something right...but I have to confess that out of curiosity I clicked on the link in your sig line, the one about resilience and iceburg beliefs...and I think that's just one of mine. If he loved me, if he desired me, he would have been faithful to me no matter what. The article was written for men, but I think that principle applies for women too, those strongly held beliefs.

Didnt realize it till I was typing this but maybe that's why I cant get past the thought that they are better than me and that he doesnt really love me. No matter how many times I hear everyone explain about fog babble and rewritting history, or the contrast effect, or just flat out trying to lessen the guilt, those contradict my deeply rooted belief that people who are in love with and desire their spouses dont cheat.

Sorry I poked my nose in the "No Gurls Allowed" area, but it was some good information and thanks for sharing it.

Something else for me to think through anyway.


Oh and about getting into the tub with your wife when she was in labor. Thats a very sweet story, and definately a chick-flick moment.

Lol. When I started the "No Gurls" thread, the title was a ploy. It's been awesome for me, and hopefully some other men here.

I get you, RFA. I pretty much got tossed for what amounts to a 4-peat ONS. It sucks, and it hurts.

I do think that there are some things in the Men's thread that could be helpful to ANYONE, and not just the men.

Iceberg beliefs is one, and catastrophizing is another, FEEL FREE to poke around. My only intention is that we men hold each other accountable for being men, as the women here do already naturally.

>.<

It's been an unpleasant few days. H came home from work the other day and I did a random check of his phone. Still not seeing any evidence of an A, but I checked his browser history for his internet and found an online porn site. I check his phone every couple of days and I have never seen anything like that on there before.

He says that he didnt do it, that he let some guy from work looked at his phone because the guy was wanting to check out what it was capable of because he was considering buying one. The guy supposedly asked H if the phone was able to be used for looking at porn and H told him that he didnt know. The conversation moved on to other things and he was showing the guy some different applications that he has and he got called away for a few minutes and left the phone there. He said he was gone maybe five minutes and since the conversation had already moved on past the porn question he didnt think anything about it until I showed him that the site had been looked at. He supposedly didnt think that someone would look at something like that without asking for permission. I dont believe it either, why would anyone be looking at that with a phone that didnt belong to them? Then again I cant see my H watching porn at work either, that doesnt make any sense, and he is with me every minute that he is not at work...

I know I have seen H do stuff like that before, he's really into computers and technology and he likes showing off his phone but... I was so angry and hurt, I know I was everywhere with the LB's. I cant figure out why he would do this, we have SF at least once a day unless he says he is tired and that doesnt happen very often. I try to keep a lot of variety so it's interesting for him. I just dont understand it.

He told me that it wasn't even the porn site he used to use, and he told me which one he used to look at. Supposedly so that I would know what to watch for and I would be able to check and make sure that he wasnt looking at it. I got on the computer and looked it up. It's disgusting, all these sickly thin anorexic women with fake DD's....I guess that's what he likes but it's just awful. I would never in a million years want to look like that, it's not natural. It's absolutely disgusting to me that he was ever looking at that, makes me sick. I can fully understand now why he was never satisfied with me. I cant compete with that, and I dont want to. I dont want to look like that, or act like that.

This is happening right on top of the 1 year anniversary of my last DDay with him coming up in less than a week, and the renewal ceremony...we already have people coming in from out of the country for this and all I want to do is RUN.

I'm sick and disgusted and confused, I dont know what to believe or what to do about it. He offered to have the internet on his phone turned off and told me that he would not let anyone else look at his phone again, he apologized for this happening and upsetting me. Reassured me that he is happy and fully satisfied with me and the SF...I just dont know. I'm in full blown pain/panic mode. If he did do it then it is a major violation of his EP's and that's very scary for me.

Rising,

I am sorry for this bump in the road. Definitely eliminate the internet from his phone. Dr. Harley always advises to eliminate the conditions that allow an affair. If necessary, get a different phone that does not access internet.

AM

I dont know what to believe or what to do about it.

Well, you certainly know what you SUSPECT, and as for what to do about it:

He offered to have the internet on his phone turned off and told me that he would not let anyone else look at his phone again, he apologized for this happening and upsetting me. Reassured me that he is happy and fully satisfied with me and the SF

Yep, all of that is good. Add to it checking his phone records periodically, and overseeing his internet browsing, and you and he will be putting in place some better EP's.

Now, how seriously do you want to twist his sack on this? You can insist on a polygraph about this if it is that big an LB for you. Here's NeverGuessed's long-distance polygraph analysis: There is no "friend" who borrowed his phone. (God, that's the best he could come up with?) Your husband had a momentary lapse in judgement, and surfed to a porn site. Now you have to start from that point, and decide how to get him to jointly design a plan not to let it occur again.

Sounds life a rough few days for sure. But step by step you two will work it out. I would cut the internet off his phone. I would also remind him that total transparency and honesty really helps rebuild trust in the relationship. I too think his story is fishy but what more can you do about that specifically. Set boundaries together. In the beginning for us oundaries were more like my demands for recovery. It never worked. It wasnt until we worked on them together and talked about what would work and why that we figured out boundaries that were meeting my needs for security if you will and were honestly something he felt he could do. Praying today is a brighter day and that you guys keep building up your lovebank and tear down the walls that lb can build in marriages.

I wanted to tell you that I feel your pain and have been there. Time has lessoned the triggers but we are roughly 6 years out now. More than time, working on the marriage and focusing on the good things and creating new memories has helped a lot. Sometimes I would literally have to force myself to refocus my mind. But as time continued and I saw his actions now the better things have gotten. I still trigger but it is FAR less frequent than before.

I am still working on me. Actually I really just began to refocus on me after all this time. And as I am able to take care of me more I'm able to give the marriage and the kids more too.

Rising,

A few months ago, the VA provided my H with an IPOD to assist with his memory issues. I was concerned at the time because the IPOD had the ability to access the internet without me knowing about it (H last contacted his OW via email and telephone from his mother's computer and phone). When he received the IPOD, my H promised he would not use it to access the internet. A couple of months later, I discovered he had downloaded a GAME from a free site. H broke his promise to me and even though it was a game that he downloaded, I did not feel safe with him having the IPOD. It is now in the top drawer of my dresser, with a dead battery.

Develop your EPs, whatever makes sense for you and your H. And then, don't wiggle on them one inch - not even for something seemingly innocent or unimportant. Everytime something small or thoughtless happens, it sets us back.

Oh, and protective lying prevents intimacy. A WS's total transparency is step two of the MB plan for recovering a marriage. Cliff notes version of MB are: step one - end the affair and no contact for life, step two - total transparency and step three - create romantic love between the spouses. Figure out how to apply step two.

AM

I hate the whole protective lying thing. I just don't get it.

Canceling the service on his phone doesn't mean that he won't be able to access internet. It just means that he will be charged a per kb rate if he does access the internet.

People with "secret, second lives" tell lies. They do this so they can continue to do whatever they want, without anyone giving them grief about it. They already know that what they are doing is wrong or offensive to someone else.

I have never really understood it either. I am pretty much a "what you see is what you get" person.

HHH, on our phone bill the pay as you go KB usage can be tracked. I am not certain about the other. Maybe, it can be tracked as well. Another alternative is a phone with no internet capability.

AM

Both of our phones have GPS things in them, and he uses his internet to get online and check the location of my phone so he knows that I am where I say I am when he is at work. Turning off his internet would disbable an important EP for us.

I tried to fix his phone so that it would block any site that was inappropriate for users under age 17, but the parental control feature that is offered with our cell phone service doesnt work on smartphones.

I can install Spyware that is compatible with his phone's operating system that woould keep track of all incoming and outgoing calls, texts, etc and keep a log of his internet browsing history. It would also let me listen to any phone call without him knowing I was listening. I'm thinking that is our best option. That way he can still use his internet to keep track of me, but he wouldnt be able to access anything inappropriate without my knowledge.

IDK what to do about the lying. I cant control what he does and I have done and said everything I can think of to explain to him how hurtful and destructive it is. The only thing I know to do is to minimize the opportunites he has to do something that he would feel the need to lie to me about.

And just pray that one day he decides to do the right thing and become an honest person.

We made it through the weekend, the vow renewal, the kid's baptisms, his family being here...It was crazy and hectic but it was nice. And we still got in UA time

My mom took the kids Thursday night for us and I went to work Friday with H. We had a good six hours worth of driving and he talked non-stop the whole way. Lots of stories about his childhood and his family, and some that I had not heard before about the drug use that he did before he met me. Lots of deposits for conversation and honesty.

The vow renewal ceremony went beautifully. We only had a small group of family and our closest friends in attendance which I loved. Our priest was great and said some things that were very touching for both of us about how the story Eve's creation would be better understood in today's times if she had been created from Adam's heart instead. He said that people used to believe that the bones were the essence of who we were as people because that was what was left when the rest of the body had gone, but that we use the heart today instead. If the story said that Adam had woken and discovered that Eve was his heart that would make more sense to us. The whole thing was amazing, and my mother-in-law bought us a beautiful set of unity candles to light, we got our rings blessed and then each had a prayer said over us to help guide us to being good spouses to each other.

Afterwards we had a very nice party with lots of food. We took a ton of pictures and both of our families had a good time. Everyone brought presents even though we asked them not to and generally treated it just like a wedding. H had found a cake that he liked but it was a bit out of our price range so I spent two days making and decorating cake so he could have what he wanted, hopefully that made a few deposits as well.

We spent the rest of that day hanging out at the pool with the kids and his family, and then came home for some nice UA time.

The kid's baptisms were great too, we did them after Sunday Mass. We were originally scheduled to do it during mass but they had a special thing Sunday for all the couples celebrating special anniversaries. We had to stand up too since we had just had the renewal the day before. That was quite touching as well, our priest told us all that marriage was the one sacrament that has survived original sin and the flooding of the world, that it was such a special institution that they have couples marry in the church not so the church can bless the marriage but so the marriage can bless the church.

It wasn't a magical cure all but it did help. I feel like some of the specialness that was missing has come back. I haven't really felt like we were married since the first DDay since the vows were broken. This helped with that a lot, and it was definitely a step towards healing.

There are things that we still need to work on to get to the marriage that I know we can have but I feel a lot more hopeful that we can get there. Some of the pain seems to have lessened and I feel stronger in dealing with the bumps in the road.

Rising,

Your post makes me smile and feel cozy. It sounds like a really good weekend, full of love bank deposits.

I read your post to Eula and thought it was very insightful. I wish at age 23 I was as smart as you are now. I didn't start learning this stuff until I was 55.

Warm wishes,

AM

Thanks AM!

I have heard that often since I came here, that I am lucky that I went through this now instead of later. We still have a lot of time left to enjoy the benefits of having a MB style M.

I'm not so smart though, I have been here so long that I am about to celebrate my 2nd b-day as a MB poster and I am still learning and struggling to apply the concepts in some areas. H does too.

We are miles ahead of where we started though, and miles ahead of most of the other couples we know. We are recovering better than I thought we could. All around despite the setbacks and the imperfections it seems that I have a lot to be grateful for.

I wish we could have gotten here without the A's, but to be honest if things had not happened the way they did we would not have found MB, and we would not know how lucky we are. It would have been so easy to slip into taking things for granted and following the same path that most M's do...growing bored and resentful and just growing apart. We had small signs already that things could go that way. I guess I wont ever know for sure but we have been married longer now than any of the other couples our age that I know. None of them made it past the two year anniversary. Several are already on second or even third marriages.

I think I am pretty lucky to know the things I have learned here, from you and the other posters that have helped me along the way.

I get that feeling.

Before I started posting here I was asking for a divorce because of that same feeling. I didn't want to leave, I just didn't want to live in what felt like a sham of a marriage, with broken vows.

Dang stubborn woman wouldn't give it to me...



>.<

Lol lucky you for getting a stubborn one!

Today was a bad day for us. H has to be at work at 2am on Fridays, which means we get in no UA time Thursdays and he gets very tired on Fridays. We get plenty of UA time the rest of the week but Thursdays leave me feeling a little disconnected and for some reason my sweet hubby, who almost never goes into the AO, SD and DJ area of LB's gets really bad about them on Fridays. He says it's because he gets so tired, which I guess does make sense. Just cranky maybe, it happens to me too when I dont get enough sleep.

Today was an especially bad Friday and we didnt either one of us handle it well. We actually got into a pretty major disagreement about what I was making for dinner

Tomorrow will be a better day, hopefully I can get some feedback from H on how I can let him know he is hurting me without upsetting him even more. I think I will ask him if he is ok with going over our notes on dealing with LB's, since I seem to need a refresher course on how to handle it when he is doing something hurtful.

He got on here tonight and actually posted for the first time in over a year and told me that he thought that maybe it would help us avoid any more days like today. Fridays arent our best days but we very very seldom have days like today where we bicker all day long. We can usually pull out of it after one or two slips and get back to MB. When it happens though it is rough, and I am glad he has decided to come here and try to avoid any more of them.

He is posting now as helping_heal_her. The only unfortunate thing is that he started posting again to his old thread, which he has not posted on since before he came clean about everything. Just knowing that he is on that thread, where he was asking people how to help me and deal with everything and he was LYING to me and to the people helping him is a bad trigger. I dont even want to have to look at the title of that thread when I come into the forum. I am going to request that he start a new thread and let that one go away again. Or get it deleted by the mods...something...anything really so I dont have to look at it. It puts too many bad thoughts in my head that if he was lying to everyone then he could be doing the same thing now...

Off to sleep and cuddle with him, he is already sleeping but maybe I will feel a little better if I snuggle up next to him.

Thanks to those who stopped by my H's thread, he said that some of you had. It was suggested to him that we make a plan for dealing with stressful situations, so we did. We know certain days etc are hard so we planned for that, including no serious talks on Friday only fun things. We also planned for the unexpected bad days when one of us is sick or something. Went over our plan for how to deal with each others LB's, and finally managed to POJA a way to do the questionaires weekly which I think will help a lot.

We had a good weekend lots of family and UA time so it doesn't seem like Friday caused us to go too far off track.

We have started doing the once weekly exchange of LB questionnaires, doing a check of how well we met each others EN's, and planning UA and Family Time. We have our plan for Fridays worked out, we are going to try having him take a nap when he gets home and see if that helps, plus no serious talk since we know he's sleep deprived. Hoping all of this helps.

It's been going pretty well.

I would like some perspective though from people further along in recovery than me. Does it ever get to the point where the A's don't hurt anymore? I know the pain is lessening and it's better, but does it ever go away? It still happens quite often that a movie preview or a song on the radio or some other unexpected trigger will pop up and it hits me all over again, "My H had SF with a bunch of nasty skanks and a prostitute." I still have nightmares about it occasionally too, and I wake up with all these horrible images in my head. Does that ever go away?

It would be so nice if it did. To be able to think of it as some obscure thing that has no relevance to my present life, not able to hurt me anymore. Like when I broke my ankle years ago, it hurt a lot, and for a few years it would cause me pain every once in a while if I turned it wrong, but now it's just a faded painless memory.

I know I'm a different person now because of what we have gone through in our M and there are going to be scars, but I could do without the residual pain.

Rising,

I don't know the full answer to your question. I can tell you what is happening with me. D-Day was three years and two months ago. I believe recovery started in Jan 2010, when we attended an MB weekend and the following week, my H became truly open and honest. Weeks that we follow all the MB principles are much better weeks for us.

There was a time right after D-day when the A consumed my thinking. Today, I don't get upset at the same triggers any more. Songs, movies, the news (the current crop of cheaters getting coverage), etc don't trigger me anymore. Sometimes, I think H is triggered. Last night, a commercial that used to trigger me came on. I was not bothered by it, but I noticed H's hand was figity. Neither of us said anything for a few moments and then out of nowhere H said that he loved me. I smiled and said it back and everything was ok.

I sometimes still get very upset. A few days ago, we were looking for some Army paperwork from 2007-08, the time of the A. I got very focused on that timeframe, what was happening when, and what I was feeling then. It felt just as bad as it did right after D-day. That is the PTSD portion of this whole thing. I keep telling myself that I have about 30 seconds to think of something else before the emotion floods in. Sometimes, it works. The other day, I was not fast enough or maybe it was because it was taking quite a while to dig through filing cabinets. From his VA PTSD group, my H applies what he knows about PTSD. One time, he said something about so many BSes having PTSD and the benefits of memory management. He also knows from his own PTSD from Iraq that the thoughts cannot always be avoided, but can be eased.

I always look for people who are in recovery for longer timeframes. There are lots of vet examples on here and Dr. Harley says it is in the thousands. Pep and her H have been in recovery for 15 years and are in massive love with each other. Mel has been in recovery for nearly 10 years. So, I know it is possible to have a great marriage. I think you and your H are on the right track. I think eventually it will feel like your ankle.

AM

Rising,

My DW and I are a little further along that you are. D-Day was two and a half years ago, but we probably should start the clock in June 2009, because that's when she finally stopped trickle-truthing me to death. I'm still trying to overcome that six months of pluperfect he77.

There were a few pieces of evidence from her A, but almost all of them have been trashed. I did keep one thing, however. I still have an ATM receipt from a cash withdrawal she made before doing her one out-of-town excursion with Pond Scum. Maybe it's a talisman of some sort, I don't know. I only know that I'm not quite ready to throw it away -- at least not yet.

I have been using it as a bookmark. The other day, I opened it up to look at it and found the ink on it had faded to nothing. You could see a general outline of what had been printed on the paper if you held it up to the light just so, but even then it would have taken a magnifying glass to make out what had been there.

This is a pretty good metaphor for what's been going on. Personal healing has been going on, and it's been helped in no small part by her willingness to do what it takes to repair things. She's completely transparent and does everything in her power to make me feel safe again.

No, I'm not quite there yet. But like the ink on that slip of paper, the bad memories are starting to fade. Soon they'll be to the point that I'll have to strain to remember just how bad it really was. Realizing that fact has made me more optimistic that I'll truly reach that stage, sooner rather than later.

Time is the great healer. Hang in there.

Thank you so much for the insight! I think that I am probably behind where I should be when it comes to the triggers for a couple of reasons. Mostly it's because he was gone another 6 months after our final major DDay and that is a nearly impossible way to recover. So I guess I feel like we are more like 6 months into recovery since thats how long he has been home.

The second issue is the amount of trickle truth. He was wayward and high after DDay, so not only was he lying but he couldnt remember what he had lied about so the story kept changing over and over. It has taken a very very long time to sort out what is true.

I also have a very good memory about things like that so it will take a long time for the memories to fade, which I think keeps the pain fresh longer.

I have hope though that eventually they will as they are replaced with happier things.

Friday was better with our new plan but we need to make a few adjustments. No UA time Thursday is really hurting us, so we need to figure out what we can do about that. It makes me feel disconnected and way more sensitive to any LB's from him, and it is triggering thoughts of my infidelty in him because he says that I seem unhappy.

This is AWESOME.

Performance, feedback, revision.

As things improve and become more natural, and as things settle and EN's become more stable, you probably won't do it weekly. But, having it as a habit now is a great idea.

No UA time Thursday is really hurting us, so we need to figure out what we can do about that.

It's not an adequate replacement for actual time together, but on days when you are necessarily apart, take fifteen minutes and write him a love-note (yes, the old-fashioned way, pen on paper!).

Your first efforts will be stilted and awkward, just like a child learning to walk. Don't give up. Over time you will develop a feeling of "talking" to him through that medium. Slip the notes into someplace that will surprise him - lunchbox, portfolio, something he carries to work - to let him know you were thinking about him. He'll think of you as he reads the note, and the EN's you've exchanged will jump into his brain.

Try it. I think you'll enjoy the feeling and the results.

We have already started leaving little love notes for each other, I put mine in his wallet for him to find when he gets to work, but it's just short little notes and not a real letter. Letters might be better.

We also call and text each other as much as possible while he is gone.

Not sure why missing that time on Thursdays is such a big deal for us, maybe it's missing out on SF that day...we may have to experiment a bit and figure out the thing that we are missing most and try to work it in somehow.

Time. Just time.

Missing that 2 hours can be significant.

Learn to make the most of the time you do get, and scuttle less important things to increase your UA time.

Chores and such can wait.

Had a bad moment yesterday, not sure if I handled it right or not. We had some money come up missing. My H was supposed to have it for gas to get to and from work. I don't know what happened to it, I have no proof he used it to do anything he should not have done. I do know that things like that used to happen a lot and he was using the money to buy drugs and alcohol.

I told him that I did not know for sure what had happened, but that I had my suspicions based on things in the past. That even if he had not used the money this time to buy drugs that I can see now that he COULD do something like that and that from now on I wanted him to leave the house with only enough money to fill the gas tank once instead of an entire weeks worth of cash and that I wanted receipts for any gas purchases. I see it as an area where EP's need to be tightened.

He said that he told me he that he did not do anything bad with the money, and asked me if he was going to be screwed forever because I dont trust anything he says.

I told him that I would not ever trust him blindly again, that I would trust what I could verify. I require complete transparency in our M in order to feel safe with him. If he feels screwed that I require this then I cannot force him to stay in the M. I told him I loved him very much but that I could not live in a M without strong EP's and full transparency. I hoped that he would chose a strong healthy M, but that if he feels that he cant stay with me under those conditions that I would have to chose divorce over a M that includes drugs alcohol and infidelity, or even the possibility of those things. I will only stay in a M that is safe for me.

He said he chooses to stay and that he will do whatever I need from him to make the M work, that he is just sad that I cant take his word for anything anymore.

I still suck majorly at enforcing boundaries, and I am not sure if I handled it right or stepped over the line.

I still suck majorly am hesitant at enforcing boundaries, and I am not sure if I handled it right or stepped over the line.

See, that wasn't so hard, was it?

Rising,

So, if he didn't do anything bad with the money, exactly what did he do with the money? If he would not tell you, then you do not have transparency. And you need transparency in the marriage.

I think you handled it fine and don't feel guilty about it. His comment about "is he going to be screwed forever because you don't trust him" is an attempt at gaslighting. All he really had to do is say that he was sorry and that he would be more open in the future. He "feels sad that you don't take his word anymore". Tell him you feel sad that he is not willing to be truly open and honest ALL the time.

AM

He said he didnt know. The conversation about the money started with him asking me if I had taken it, which I had not. He then said that it had been two days since he had put gas in the car and that he could not remember where he had put it. Usually he puts it in his wallet or in the car. He said it was not in his wallet and that he had forgotten to lock the car that day when he was at work but that it did not look like anything in the car had been disturbed so he didnt think someone had gotten in the car and taken it.

Basically he said he didnt know what had happened to it but it was gone.

Then he asked me why, if he had done something with the money, he would have asked me if I had taken it...

Hmmm...just to make himself look innocent...just so he could say, "But if I did something with it why would I ask?"

He used to do that stuff a lot to make me feel guilty about being suspicious of him.

He would tell me that if he was doing something bad he would be going to the bar with idiot friend #1 and idiot friend #2 because they asked him to go all the time...only to find out that he WAS going to the bar with them...

He does it to gaslight me and make me feel bad for not trusting him.

Not buying it. Not anymore.

I used to wait for proof, and it was my biggest mistake in dealing with his dishonesty and addictions and OW's. If I had taken action on my suspicions I wouldnt be in this place. I could have stopped it from going as far as it did. He is a champion gaslighter and was always able to spin a reasonable story and make me feel so d@mn guilty for not trusting.

I wont do it again. I dont have proof but even if he didnt do it this time, I now see an area that he COULD do it. I am closing up that area before it has a chance to happen or to progress further if it did happen already.

IDK what to do about the honesty issue, I dont have any proof that he is lying which makes it difficult to deal with directly. I cant call him out on dishonesty if I dont know he is being dishonest. I let him know when I believe he is being dishonest, and tighten EP's in the areas that I feel he is being dishonest about, but I cant force him to be honest with me. Right now my plan is to continue to tighten our EP's and my ability to check up on his actions until it becomes impossible for him to lie to me about anything that he does.

That still leaves dishonesty about his thoughts and feelings and past events, but I dont think there is much I can do about that.

RFA - you are assuming he is lying and treating him as such.

That, dear woman, is a big, fat, disrespectful judgement.

You are not making it either safe or pleasant for him to be H&O - in fact, if he is being completely honest (which, not being psychic, you can't possibly know) you are accusing him of lying anyway.

This is both a mindset and a cycle of failure.

Just stop it.

There is a reason why that's supposed to be a hilarious TV skit...it's ineffective. Telling me to just stop isn't helpful. It would be like Dr Harley running around telling people to just stop having bad M. If you have other advice on how to actually handle the situation, or a plan for dealing with it then by all means please share it. If not that's fine, but leave the knock it off stuff for someone else. You need a plan to change behaviors, that's how MB works.

I am NOT going to just accept his word for it. I am NOT going to just blindly trust him. Dr Harley says I am not SUPPOSED to blindly trust him, and if I told him that I did then I would be lying and that does not help us either.

I did not tell him that he absolutely was lying, I told him that I had suspicions that he was lying. That is radical honesty. I am telling him my thoughts and feelings. Maybe I am wrong and maybe I am not, but at least he knows how I feel.

I can assure you I am not treating him the same as I would if I knew for a fact he was lying. If I knew for a fact he had bought drugs with the money he would be out on his @ss and I would have a thread started in the divorcing forum. I will not live with an active drug addict and he knows it. Again that's honesty from me. He knows where my boundary is. No drugs, no alcohol, no OW's. That is not a LB, and even if it was that's too bad.

Quite frankly I am doing exactly what I was advised to. When I found porn on his phone and he claimed he didn't do it I was advised to act on my suspicions and monitor or disconnect the internet on his phone. I knew what I suspected and that was enough.

Now I am getting bashed for it. Doesnt make any sense to me.

Advising me to do nothing when all the evidence points to him engaging in destuctive behaviors again makes no sense to me. If I have a gap in our EP's that could be used to have an A or drink or do drugs I am going to do my best to correct that. I do not believe that is a LB either. It's how you build an A proof M. By making impossible for him to have an A. Same thing with the drugs and alcohol, it should be impossible for him to have a secret second life.

And I am not apologzing for having that as my goal. I love him but I will not live in a M that is not safe for me. If that is a LB for him then he can leave the M. I want to be married to my H, but not enough to live through the hell he created ever again.

Note; the advice was not to "do nothing," it was: stop responding with love busters.

Yes, just stop it. Stop love busting your spouse. The very thing MB is built upon.

Read up on them again. They are employed exactly as you are doing; as a foolish and destructive attempt to have our needs met, destroying the love our spouse has for us in the process.

If THAT is your goal, then by all means, continue.

Otherwise, you could have him drug tested. Not much different than asking for a poly, and gives him the chance to either own up pr redeem himself.

Rising,

The problem with the aftermath of an affair is that so much dishonesty is involved that it is extremely difficult to accept the "innocent" answer. Once you have been the recipient of lie after lie, it is really hard to even consider that explanations may be the truth and not automatically a lie. I understand this perfectly. My H used to say things like, "I can't prove a negative (telling the truth versus telling a lie)." IF your H is being open and honest, it will get better over time and you will feel better. My H started being an open and honest man about a year and a half ago. After a period of time, I started to accept more of what he says at face value. I still check on agreed-upon EPs whenever I happen to feel like it, but not nearly as often as in the past. IF your H is dishonest, you will see a continuing pattern of questionable incidents.


Is your H willing to brainstorm solutions that will make you feel safe? You can't MAKE your H be open and honest. But you can tell him what your boundries are. You've been here a while and you already know about that though.

Also, feel free to ignore blunt and any unhelpful posts. Don't even have to address them.



AM

Advising me to do nothing when all the evidence points to him engaging in destuctive behaviors again makes no sense to me. If I have a gap in our EP's that could be used to have an A or drink or do drugs I am going to do my best to correct that. I do not believe that is a LB either. It's how you build an A proof M. By making impossible for him to have an A. Same thing with the drugs and alcohol, it should be impossible for him to have a secret second life. And I am not apologzing for having that as my goal. I love him but I will not live in a M that is not safe for me.

All very worthwhile goals and principles, RFA.

However, I'm going to tell you that from what you posted (the "friend" using the phone to surf porn, and now the "missing" money) your husband evidently does not buy into your vision of a worthy marriage.

it should be impossible for him to have a secret second life

You're wrong. He will find ways, if he chooses. People get drugs, porn, etc into prisons for pity's sake! You have not yet convinced him that "trying" will immediately result in fracturing the marriage. Seriously, I don't believe you, why should he?

Would you like to run a test?

By magic that is much too powerful to describe, I, NeverGuessed, am now Mr. RFA. Convince me that there are no more chances left. Tell me what you will do if he continues to finagle little acts of dishonesty.

(You are right, btw, that explaining the needs and actions of verification to a FWS cannot be considered a love-buster. They, by their prior actions, have abdicated that claim of "trustworthiness". However, continually "one more chancing" a FWS actually IS an LB, as they lose respect for your integrity.)

So, spell it out, right here, how seriously and totally you will be verifying and deciding on "my" actions. (You won't hurt my feelings!)

No lip service, no blah blah, something plain and simple;

Take a little look around this forum and you will see two types of people.

1) People who have come here to fix their marriage.

2) People who have come here to fix their spouse.

One of these groups is successful. They "fix" what they have come here to fix, and have happy lives.

The second group have the exact same struggles now as whenever they arrived, and they may have arrive 2, 4, 7 years ago. They are tired and miserable, and they just can't figure out; how do you get this durn MB thang to work.

Those people often get angry when others try to help them, they lash out a lot, and a lot of the best posters here? They no longer post to them. Because, over their time here they have shown an inability to listen, and an inability to fully understand how this MB thing works.


Which group would you like to be in?

Rising,

I think you have a very good grasp of MB principles. Is your H on board fully?

One of the things I finally realized that I could not change my H. If he was not invested in the M, I could not push him - pull him into it.

AM

I had responses typed out for each of you, but I doubt any of it made any sense. I am just confused.

I dont know if I did the right thing or committed a LB.

I dont know if I am protecting a boundary or trying to change/fix him.

I dont know if he is telling me the truth or not, and I certainly dont know what to do about it.

I thought I had handled it the way I was advised to handle it, maybe I was wrong.

The only thing I do know is that I cant go back to the way things were before. If I have no way to protect myself and I cant voice concerns or fear or suspicions without it being a LB...
If I cant ask for tighter EP's when I feel unsafe...

I would rather be divorced.

Ash, all I can say is that as a FWS, if my H was willing to give me a chance, and needed certain things from me, I'd do them, no questions. That would include a drug test, if drugs were something that had been a factor in my waywardness and if my taking a drug test made him feel safe. Don't know if that makes sense, but IMHO if your H is on board with MB and wants to recover your M, then he should do whatever you need to make you feel safe.

Him asking if he was "going to be screwed forever because you don't trust anything he says," well, that sucks on his part. Of course you don't trust anything he says, any more than any other BS can trust their FWS. We lost the blind trust we didn't deserve to begin with. Trust must be earned, rebuilt, and cannot be given blindly. He has to understand that, and if he wants to remain married to you then he must do what you need to feel safe. I think it's valid he communicates that he's sad that you don't trust him, but part of that communication should include - on his part - his recognition that he is the cause of that.

Would using debit/credit cards for gas be possible? He'd have a receipt he could show you. Heck I almost never carry cash anymore, I use my cards.

These are not bad things to ask, or to think about RFA.

I wish I could answer each and every one of your statements both gently and eloquently, alas I cannot.

However; WPG has a thread here discussing boundaries. Pep has a thread talking about boundaries. Boundaries are there to protect you, and not to control your spouse.

Did you do the right thing or commit an LB? This is perfectly posed.

Radical honesty is what this system is about, while love busting is not.

This is why the use of the "I'd love it if _____" and "I love it when _____" type statements is encouraged. Do not be baited further than those statements, as it can wade you out into DJ territory. Your feelings as related to an action are just so. No justification or explanation required.

Other than that - Army Mama posed it perfectly in her concise post above; You can't fix him. You can't control him. You can't push or pull him into an MB-led recovery.

You can; avoid love busters, meet his needs, make it safe and pleasant for him to meet your needs.

After that, if he cannot appreciate what is standing in front of him enough to think about correcting his own Rectocranial inversion... then he just lost a woman who will be a wonderful wife to a man who can.

Work on you, perfect you - as it pertains to an MB marriage - and let him decide to follow.

Rising,

If you voiced your feelings as a complaint and not a selfish demand, then you are working the MB program. If you avoided selfish demands, disrespectful judgements and an angry outburst and laid out your concern in a calm manner, you are working MB. It is not a selfish demand to request your H to act in a way that will make you feel safe.

Things will come up. Is H willing to brainstorm a solution that will work for both of you?

Just yesterday, I told H that there were some shirts that he had that were bothering me. He had been wearing one when we were working on our renovaion project. The shirts were four Army shirts and in the past I had found a similar one with a pink bath and body works ribbon on it. The OW had given it to him. In any case, yesterday, H simply said, "If they are bothering you, let's just throw them out". Simple solution and we moved on to working in the garden.

I spent quite a bit of time since I posted this last issue very upset and concerned. I was so unsure of myself and my H. I didnt know if I was doing the right thing, and doubts were weighing pretty heavily in my mind about my H and his decision to be honest or not.

He was actually great, and very supportive of me when I was upset. He talked to me about the issue and my fears quite a bit.

During on of these talks we were discussing whether what I had said and done to handle the situation was a LB for him. Opinion here has been divided somewhat and I was confused. His response to this was that no one but him could possibly know what does or does not affect his feelings of love for me.

It was a lightbulb moment for me for sure. I do the best I can to avoid LB's, but it is on his side of the street to let me know if or when I mess up. He is the only one who could possibly know what hurts his love for me. Trying to decide what he feels about my actions is a big assumption, it's a DJ. If I have doubts about something like that I need to ask HIM. He said that the way I handled it was not a LB for him, that he prefers to know when I have suspicions as it is part of RH for him. He said that at times like that he is upset, but that it is with himself because he knows that it was his dishonesty that destroyed my trust in him.

I have also been thinking a lot about what NG said, about how to convince my H that I will not give him another chance. The truth is that I cannot. The only way to convince him that this is his last chance is for him to mess up and me to actually leave. I cannot control what choice he will make. I know in my own mind and heart that I cannot go back down that road. I am certain that this is his last chance. If he chooses to find out the hard way then that is on him. It is not something I have control over and it is a waste of my time and energy to worry about it. He will make his choice, and if he makes that choice a destructive one then I will remove myself and my children from him.

I am going to protect my boundaries, and no one but me has the right to decide what my boundaries are. One of my boundaries is that I will not remain in a M where I do not feel safe. If he is not willing to correct any areas where I feel unsafe then he is not the man I need in my life.

I have no desire to fix him, and I couldnt even if I wanted to. I am fixing myself, and the part of me would stay with a man who was a serial cheater, alcoholic and drug addict. I deserve better than that and so do my children. I am hoping that he decides to be better than that, but if he doesnt then we will be ok without him. And no I am not ever going to just take him at his word for it again. He certainly wouldnt be honest with me about it. I will check and I will verify, and if a situation comes up that I dont have the stuff in place to check and verify then he can work with me and negotiate ways to correct that or he can be gone from my life.

It's his choice, I have decided what I will and will not live with. I've been doing this long enough, he is either completely on board and willing to do what it takes or he isnt.

He is honestly doing much better, and the incidents that we have had have been handled and EP's tightened, but I dont think this has really been so much about him. It's been about me and letting go of my fear of his actions. And finally taking control of the only thing I can control...myself.

I have been so afraid to protect myself...afraid that it would drive him away. The things he did to me, he did because I allowed it to happen. He may still have done them, but it wouldnt have been to me if I not chosen to stay, or bend on my EP's, or take his word for it when I knew that it just didnt sound right.

I was a victim at least partially of my own making.

Now I am chosing a happy healthy me, and to be the best spouse I can be.

He decides whether he is going to be part of that or not.

It's been awhile since I posted, and I have been amazingly at peace. I dont know quite how to explain it, just that I dont feel fear anymore over my H or the choices he makes. I dont feel the need to try and push, pull, or drag him into doing the right things. I am calm and it's been such a long time since I have felt that way.

My H is...not calm. I dont know why and I honestly cant really make any sense of his explainations. Since I stopped being afraid, it seems that he has become that way.

He checks on me at least a dozen times a day, and seems to be constantly anxious. I dont mind him checking, I have nothing to hide from him, I just dont quite understand why this has popped up all of a sudden when he never had issues like this before.

I have done everything I can think of to give him what he needs to feel safe, and he just keeps telling me that all of my constant worrying was part of how he knew I loved him. Now that I am not always worrying he thinks I dont love him anymore.

Is this normal?

I still check and still expect transparency from him but I dont live in constant fear anymore. I would have thought he would be happy about that, and I dont know what to do about his sudden insecurity. He acts like he wants me to go back to living in fear of his every decision and I really am just not going back to that.

I am really confused right now, and hoping maybe I can get some insight about how to ease his fears.

Yes, it's normal RFA.

You have finally hit that breach where you are, and will only, accept responsibility for you and your actions. You will no longer put up with his poor choices if he continues to make them. You are allowing him the "freedom" to... well, screw himself.

And him?

He knows that you now have the will and strength to drop him like a bad habit if he don't get on board.

For you, it's a bit of peace. For him; pure fear.

Let's see if he can up his game, eh?

Continue to keep your side of the street clean. Congrats on the breakthrough.

There is nothing wrong with you.

Me-23 FWW/BW
DH-26 FWH/BH

I don't remember the details of your and his affairs, however you both walked the W side of the street.

You have come out calm and are now in a good place. The thing is many a WS when embarking on their affair ignore or never ask themselves the question "what is good for goose is good for the gander", is it ok for my spouse to have a affair while I have mine, and if they do it's always no way jose.

You have shown your WH/BH that you can go do someone else while married to him.

This fact has him laying manure bricks in his pants.

It has nothing to do with you being a good wife.

It has everything to do with him living in a tremendous fear of what can happen.

I'm not saying that you have not learnt anything from your experiences and would back slide.

Ask your self what can you do to ease his fears. This has nothing to do with you being a door mat now.

RFA

FWIW I think you did good! I remember that feeling of fear, of wondering what if and when....

I got strong for me, it sounds like thats exactly what you did for you.

My plonker knows that I will walk, can walk and will be fine if he is in contact with Ginge again. Of course he could well be, the big hole in the workplace, but it's entirely his choice.

On this issue he knows what the consequences are and that I will follow through.

Stay well, stay strong and smile a little as it's clear that your WH is beginning to wonder just what is happening, no more needy RFA, suddenly a strong RFA, it's knocked his world a little.

Enjoy the attention, tell him he has nothing to worry about provided he is keeping his side of the fence clean, then offer him that cookie!!

Blessings

Its been awhile since I posted and I am really happy to be able to say that my anxiety level has stayed down and that my H has adjusted to it and no longer seems to fear that it is a sign that I am going to leave the M.

It is still a rollercoaster, some days I feel great and other days I dont .think I can stand to look at him one more minute, but I am working at overcoming my fears and pride and allowing myself to be vulnerable enough to let him help me through the tough days. Honestly at this point its less about fear and more about the pride. I really took his fogbabble to heart and have been struggling with the idea of being with someone who sees me in such a negative way. I think this last week has been better though, he has really opened up to me about his addictions and how they serve as a cover for his pain, and the justifications he has given himself over the years. None of it was specific A talk, most of it was about his teen years and when he first started using, about his history from before we met. It did give me a better understanding of him and his life and a real picture that I am not any different than anyone else he has hurt when he was chasing that high.

Whatever bad thoughts he used to demonize me when he was hurting me simply dont matter, its a symptom of his brokeness. I feel sorry for him for the first time, and what he needed to do to feel good about himself. I wont ever go back there, but I feel like I can look at it differently now.

What I have NOW is a man who loves me and values me and our family. Whatever there was before is gone and never had very much to do with me anyway. And we are both learning to be better and stronger than we used to be.

Not much point to this, just kind of rambling since I feel like things are improving. I have overcome almost all of my SF triggers, and it seems like there are just a lot of things that are better even on the bad days.

I've got a couple of questions about things that have happened in the last few days that I am not sure how to handle.

First thing is that we went over our LB and EN's questionaires again last night because we just were not feeling as happy lately (trigger management and stuff from the past has really improved but some of the present stuff seemed to be slipping).

Under the Annoying Habits question H has added a new habit since the last time we did the questionaire. He says that me and the kids having a routine annoys him. He doesnt like routines and it bothers him when he is home that we have a basic idea of what is going to happen and at approximately what time.

I am not sure what to say about this, we have a 6 year old and a one and a half year old and I homeschool. I feel like I cant function and get done everything that needs to be done if we do not have some sort of flexible schedule. I am more relaxed on weekends when H is home, but the kids know what happens at what time and they are happier and more relaxed in their usual routine. Especially DS6, he often asks for things when it is the time that we typically do it, and refuses it if it is not time yet. MY H says that its boring and he thinks things should be spontaneous.

I see a lot on the forums about how important scheduling is so that you can fit in UA and family time and everything else. I'm a little blindsided by his sudden objection and really stressed on POJA in this instance because I do not have a clue where to begin. I have been thinking since last night and dont have one idea on how to raise the kids and everything without some sort of structure. Any advice on a place to start working through this would be appreciated.

The second thing happened this morning. H called me when he got to work to give me his schedule for today, and it was kinda crazy today. It was one of those days where there wasnt really a set time frame, it was all going to depend on several factors and how things went throughout the day. He tried to explain it to me a couple of times but I really wasnt able to make much sense of what he was telling me. He asked me if it made sense, I told him honestly that it really didnt and that I felt that I had gotten more confused each time he tried to explain it to me.

He told me that it was hurtful that I did not understand him, because it made perfect sense to him and telling him that it did not make sense to me and I did not understand made him feel stupid for not being able to explain it right.

I dont know what to do about that, I dont want to hurt his feelings, but sometimes I have hard time really getting what he is saying. Is it possible for me not understanding his explanation to be a LB, and if it is what do I do about it?

I was honestly trying, and asking questions to try and clarify as well as repeating back to him what I had understood from what he said and none of that helped any.

I'd file this under the "let's POJA an alternative" category. Probably more than the FACT of the routine is the METHOD of the routine. It's almost certainly not that you have a routine that bugs him; it's the fact the routine probably assumes his absence, and he likely had no say in what you're doing.



http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5066_qa.html . In particular, see the bit about the "electric fence personality". He might be stumbling against his own dislikes without realizing they are there!

Him saying your activities are boring is a DJ. Him saying *he* is bored by the routine is honesty. Important difference.



In my opinion, such a rapid shift in opinion is a HUGE red flag. It means that someone has recently exposed him to the idea that routine is "boring" and "spontaneity" is better, and he's trying on the opinion because he wants to be like that person, or have that person's favor. Who is that someone?


Yep. It's a thing we call "provisional enthusiastic agreement". Enter into negotiations with the idea that you want to change ONE thing about what it is you're doing, and you'll give it a try for about 3 months. If you like it, you keep it. If you don't, you dispense with it.


It's all in how you say it, and in how he says it. He shouldn't be saying what you say is "hurtful", as that implies your INTENTION to hurt him. What he should say is that when you don't understand him, he is hurt. That's a totally different thing than saying something is "hurtful".

Ditto for you. You should express your confusion by asking if he can restate himself and if you can say what he just said in your own words. If he resists, it's likely he's INTENTIONALLY confusing you, or not certain of things himself. If he continues to maintain that he doesn't want to explain himself because you're hurting him by making him do so, that's a classic "gaslighting" technique that means he has something to hide that's best served by making you confused.


Could be considered an Annoying Habit, but a fairly minor one. The best way to make sure you're on the same page is for him to say what he means, you restate it in your own words, him to clarify, you restate again in new words, etc. Often immediately post-affair my wife and I would have to go back and forth many times. If your spouse is incapable of or unwilling to do this with you, it usually means they've run up against a mental block or fog: what they are saying doesn't actually make sense, but their brain twists it around to say it does in order to fit with some internal reality (like being in love, hiding something, having tremendous cognitive dissonance, etc.)

If he keeps doing it, you can be pretty certain it's not your comprehension that's at fault. It's more that he's trying to throw you off some trail.

This is sounding more and more like he's hiding something, particularly when he blames you for being so reasonable. You really need to find out what that something is!

Thank you DMNM, the information that you gave me has been very helpful, as always.

I read over the description of the electric fence personality and got his agreement to go over it with me to see if we could get some insight to our situation. The part that really resonated with us about his personality is not really knowing his likes and dislikes. After discussing we think that he probably has more of a people pleaser personality, and that the reason he that he does not know what he likes is because he doesnt ask himself what makes him happy when he makes a decision, he asks himself if it is going to make someone else happy.

He often feels discontent about something but doesnt like to do a lot of thinking trying to figure it out, his unhappiness level has to be fairly high before he puts any energy into trying to figure out what is wrong. Even then he often finds such enjoyment knowing that other people are happy about it that he "just goes with the flow" until his unhappiness reaches a very high level.

I think that may contribute to why I often feel blindsided by new complaints, he acts fine until he gets VERY unhappy and then all of a sudden it's a really big deal seemingly out of nowhere. I told him that I usually feel off balance and have a hard time adjusting to him because of all of this, and we agreed to try the provisional POJA. I think that would help a lot. He often knows that a situation makes him unhappy, but he is unsure as to exactly what it is that bothers him. Doing POJA that way will let us try various fixes as we try and figure out what is upsetting him.

I also saw a lot of myself in the electric fence description. I have a very clear idea of where my fences are, but I definately feel that there are just places I can't go without feeling extremely unhappy. We were able to identify some of my fence areas and how it was creating issues for us. It gave us a great new perspective and terminology to use about those areas that helped us to communicate more clearly. I think provisional POJA will help me too because I can agree to try something and back away if it creates unhappiness.

I discussed the routine thing with him and he says its an area that he was going with the flow in because it made me happy and his unhappiness was minimal at the time. His job has recently gotten a lot more rountine, our usual babysitter has been having personal problems and our UA time has been mostly at home for a few weeks and he is now feeling very unhappy about it. He said needs more unstructured time built in to our routine and for us to have more recreational UA time outside the house.

He also agreed to try the technique that you mentioned for helping me to understand him when I get confused by what he is saying, but said that he gets frustrated when he feels he has run out of ways to explain it to me and I still dont get it.

I am taking your thoughts about him hiding something very seriously, and am increasing my vigilance.

I havent found anything that indicates he is hiding something from me, I am going to keep checking, but nothing so far.

I'm just getting frustrated. I am doing a better job of dealing with the past and handling the hurt from all of that, but it's really because I simply refuse to be a victim of that anymore or to live in the past. I am tired of being unhappy and living in the past that I cant change guarantees unhappiness. Living in the present is better and I do feel better because of it.

On the other hand I feel the M we have in the present is not at the level I would like it to be. I mean it's not awful but it's not amazing either. And I dont want to stay forever in a M that isnt amazing.

I am sure I contribute to it not being amazing, but I have such a hard time adjusting to him. I feel like I get mixed messages from him or no messages at all. He usually has something critical to say about what I do or how I could have done it better, but he says he is happy and his needs are met...just confuses me. I dont know what I need to work on and he doesnt like to brainstorm so I end up trying to come up with most of the solutions on my own. So I guess just confused and tired.

When it comes to getting my needs met I am trying to be more specific about exactly what I would like to get from him but it doesnt really seem to be effective. For example I told him that it would help with my family commitment need if he spent 15 minutes a day with the kids on weekdays and maybe an hour with them each day of the weekend. He agreed to that and I suggested bath time because that is the kids favorite evening activity. He agreed to it, and I asked specifically if he liked that idea or if he thought something else might be a better option. He said that he agreed. So he took the kids in and put them in the tub and spent most of the time they were in there standing in the bathroom door watching TV while they played.

Ok so thats not really meeting my need. I asked him if next time he could actually stay in there with them during their baths or pick some other activity that was more enjoyable for him. He said he would stay in there with them, and he did for a day or two and then he was back to watching TV. Actually when it comes to the kids he is pretty much like that unless the activity is just sitting watching TV or playing video games with them in the first place. So I asked him again if he wanted to try something besides bathtime and he tells me I need to just let him do things with the kids his way and that watching TV and playing video games is bonding.

IDK myabe it is, but it really doesnt meet my need. And there are three of my top 5 EN's that I get basically that same situation on. I try to be specific and not confusing about what I want and provide options on ways that he can meet that need so he doesnt feel forced to do one specific thing that he may not be enthusiastic about. He agrees to something but no follow through on it. I dont know anymore what else I can do to help change this. I know I cant control what he does, but maybe I am doing something wrong in my approach that I dont see?

I am just tired, I am the one who tries to fix things, come up with all the plan, the solution, the next thing to try and it's been nearly 3 years of it. Two of which was drowning in the fallout of drugs, alcohol and infidelity on top of living in different countries. I am thinking more on the idea that if our M isnt better than it ever was, if we arent passionately in love after 2 years then Dr Harley advises separation. I've put off the start of that 2 years till he was home and we had a better chance of making it, but the first year is almost up and we are not where we need to be.

What else can I do to fix this?

I haven't read the book, so maybe this is off the mark. Have you looked at the book, "His Needs, Her Needs for Parents". I took a look at the Table of Contents and it has a chapter called, "Parenting Takes Time: How to Be a Committed Mom and Dad".

Maybe someone who has read this book can chime in.

Also, here is something that helped us with the affection lesson that could be used for other things. I developed a spreadsheet with H's list of weekly tasks and placed it on the computer desktop where we can both look at it.

AM

I havent read HNHN for Parents yet, we just have the regular version, but even that talks about spending time with the kids etc. I talked to him again last night and he said he is just too tired to spend 15 minutes a day with them during the week. I am going to try and move our UA time to in the mornings so he gets to sleep earlier at night. I think he would end up getting ready for work instead of paying attention to me but I am desperate enough to try. Maybe I will be pleasantly surprised.

I love the spreadsheet idea, and I think it would work great for me, I doubt I could H to be enthusiastic about it though because it makes more structure and routine in his life. Maybe if I try it it will motivate him to do something more to try and meet my needs. He doesnt communicate his needs to me very much, and almost never tells me if I am off target with trying to meet his needs until he is extremely upset about something but I can try.

I just really feel like I need him to help me figure out how to fix this. I keep coming up with all these ideas, and they work for me, but they dont work for him. I am getting frustrated that I am not getting enough info from him to accomplish anything. I am not even asking him to make the plan, just to help figure out some idea of what might work for him.

Mostly I get that he just doesnt know what would help.
He's just too tired to spend time with the kids.
He just doesn't communicate well about his feelings.
He just forgets to help with domestic stuff or doesnt have time.

So I keep lowering the standard hoping that eventually it will be low enough that he will meet it. Maybe the idea that something is better than nothing, and then he tells me that it feels like he just cant make me happy and he feels bad anytime I tell him I would like to see more of something or maybe doing something a little differently.

I feel bad because in a way I think maybe I am demanding that he meet my needs, not flat out demanding but I tell him that I need this need met and I tell him if what he is doing is working or if it needs adjusting to be on target.

I just cant lower the standards anymore, and I dont want to stay forever in a M where he is unwilling to meet my needs. I feel guilty for that because he says he's happy and I'm really not, and I dont want to be the one to give up.

It seems like it would be a lot easier to just separate myself from him emotionally but thats the easy way out and isnt going to help us have a good M.

Rising,

Why is your husband so tired? Is he working long hours? Is he depressed? Some of your description reminds me of my husband before he started treatment for his PTSD/depression.

AM

It could be depression I guess, he was on AD in germany. Mosty he seems happy and energetic unless I ask him for something.

The last day or two he has decided to drop a whole list of complaints on me that he says he has been unhappy about for months even though I ask him a few times a week if he is happy and we just did the EN questionaire and he has been saying everything is fine and I was doing great meeting his needs.

I am fed up.

Just wanted to say thank you to all of you that supported me during my time here, I will always admire your strength and your courage and I wish all of you the best, you deserve it!

...thank you to all of you that supported me...

RFA, whatever you're going through, we're still here to support you. What do you need?

I wasnt planning on posting anymore, I am just about at my limit of what I can take. Caught him in another lie recently about the things he told me about the A's. He just doesnt seem to understand that it WILL come out somehow, even if we arent talking about the A's directly. This happens every few months of so even though I have stopped asking him about the A's, other things come up and he says something that contradicts what he told me because he has forgotten the lie he told, or it comes out different ways, like not being able to open a bank account in his name because he has one that he left overdrawn by $600 that he spent on drugs and rental cars to get to the bars. It does come out eventually, one way or another.

He has been essentially ignoring me when I tell him he isnt my needs, or responding to it by LBing me horribly. POJA is virtually impossible because if I tell him I do not agree with his opinion he responds by telling me that he is always wrong, or his opinions dont count and walks away. I have tried to find out what I am doing beyond just not agreeing with him that makes him feel this way (a tone of voice, a facial expression, etc) and he says he doesnt know. I dont know how to fix it.

I dont even have time right now to get into the difficulty I am having trying to meet his needs.

I was to the point that I was packing up his stuff before he stopped the verbal attacks I have been getting lately. I have had enough of doing this. It hurts.

If he wants to stay he has to:

Post here often, at least every other day
-adopt a zero tolerance for LB's
-express a willingness to POJA ways he can enthusiastically meet my EN's
-be O&H about how I can meet his needs and POJA ways I can be enthusiastic about doing it
-pass a polygraph when we get our tax return and we can afford it
*The only question I have is if he has been honest about everything about his A's, if not he is gone, no more trickle truth
-he says he cant think of everything he needs to say when we discuss things face to face, so we both have a notebook that we can write in to help communicate needs and stuff to each other, he has to write in this daily

So I guess what I need is a 2x4 if I am wrong on any of this, and for someone to help him when he posts here. I am at my limit of how much I can take. Thanks for the support NG.

I understand you consider these actions as mandatory on his part. Does he? Does he comprehend and accept that his "non-involvement" in nourishing your marriage is causing its death, and that (figuratively speaking), you've bought the plot and ordered the box?

I would suggest picking ONE of those actions (one easily measurable) give him a set period (two weeks) with a clearly defined result for failure, and track the results.

Extrapolating from the evidence so far presented about WH's paucity of success in any program, I'd expect him to fail. Impose the penalty (NO WAVERING!) Set the same program once again in place with a different (more severe?) penalty and hit "go" again.

Seriously, then, if he fails the second time, you'll have a firm grounding for considering your next actions.

He says that he does. I told him that I am not really ready at this point to believe that things are going to improve and my $LB is so dangerously depleted that I really cannot continue on anymore like this. I also wrote it down in my notebook to share with him. That I have lost nearly all of my love for him and I am considering divorce if the situation does not improve and that I consider the things I listed to be the minimum amount at this point that I can live with and remain in the M.

I feel like I may be stepping into making SD's on some of these things, and please someone let me know if I am. I just know that I am finding it increasingly difficult to remain in the situation as it is now. I am struggling to meet his needs because he is not telling me how and I am struggling with LB's because he is not giving me specific actions that I can change, just a general idea that he feels like I am not listening or respecting him. I have done everything I know to do to POJA and he either agrees and does not follow through (even when I ask repeatedly if he is sure he is enthusiastic about the agreement) or says he is just always wrong and leaves the conversation (again I get no specifics of what I am doing that could be causing him to feel he is always wrong). I am trying to pull my own weight and motivate by example, by getting him to feel love for me and want to meet my needs in return but it seems my efforts are just not meeting the mark and I dont know what to correct.


Not sure what that penalty would be, I dont want to punish him. I want a fulfilling M, for both of us. I do agree on having a time in my mind for him to begin to come on board with that, and after that time if he is not engaging me in the program and working the recovery plan with me then I am thinking I may have to do Plan B or even D. After our experience of being separated and the drugs, drinking, OW's etc I dont really think I would be able to recover after a Plan B unless it involved a follow-up polygraph proving that he was not unfaithful to me during the separation.

Not sure what that penalty would be, I dont want to punish him. I want a fulfilling M, for both of us.

Did you intentionally write these sentences knowing that they summarize EXACTLY where your marriage is deficient?

Right now hubby's non-performance in working with you to repair your marriage is consistent with that of a petulant 13-year-old

• who does not comprehend his math lessons
• does not work to learn what he does not know
• is content to fail

because there is NO downside to his (in)action.

That is why I urged you TOGETHER to set a measurable action plan; with a reasonable target date; and a previously specified consequence for failure.

What I failed to advise before, but will now, is that if he abjectly refuses to engage in setting up the plan......lawyer up, file, and get the he77 out.

It wasnt intentional, but I do see your point.

I will talk to him about your idea and see if we can come up with some sort of plan.

He has been posting on here, and thats an easily measurable thing, so maybe we can start there.

Talked to him some yesterday about the plan that was suggested. I brought up possibly using a system of rewards in addition to or instead of a penatly because of Dr Harley's habits building article, where he says that if the new habit is not pleasurable in and of itself then the next best thing is to get something pleasurable for doing it. We havent been able to POJA what kind of reward we should use, and he doesnt like the idea of a penalty because he says that it would cause resentment. I told him that by choosing not to POJA a less severe penalty that he is leaving me with only one option in the event that he does not start participating in the program...and that is to leave until he shows me that he has made the necessary changes for a fulfilling M. He says he does understand that, and that he has no intentions of allowing that to happen.

Of course he was also talking about potential penalties being things like sleeping on the floor for a week, which is not what I had in mind at all. I am wondering if perhaps it is the word penalty that he really objects to, since he is thinking of it being some sort of physical and mental punishment. I am considering asking him if he agrees to making a post here about what area he did not complete, why he believed that happened, and getting the other posters advice on setting up a plan for success the next time, with him being accountable to the forum for each step of the plan. IF he should not be successful in an area of building new habits. It's not really a penalty, but it would give him some extra motivation to be successful.

RFA,


Just a suggestion - and I may be totally wrong here - but I would say that if you have questions you post them on your thread. Requiring him to post certain things is dangerously close to using the forums to educate him, which makes it a DJ.

Again, I could be wrong...

I wouldnt have done it without his agreement, but since it could be considered a LB I will not bring it up to him. I think I am LB'ing enough with demanding that he post on the forums and the other things that I have told him I need him to do. We have discussed it and I told him that I know that me requiring that to stay in the M is a LB, I know he doesnt like it and I am requiring it anyway. It's calculated on my part, a gamble that I am taking. I am hoping that whatever love he loses for me by doing this I can regain. I think it's worth the risk because to continue on as we have would almost certainly result in the end of our M.

That would be the list I would give him of things that I required if I was to go into a Plan B, and I am giving him the chance do it now and hopefully avoid the Plan B situation. With two FWS's I think that Plan B would be more than usually stressful, especially since this is a non-A situation.

I am also doing everything I can to regain that lost love. I cant say it's Plan A exactly because I do have a requirement...him posting here...but I am doing everything I can to meet his needs in a huge way and expecting nothing else from him but that daily post. I know we will get to the needs meeting and stuff down the road but posting is the habit we are working on now and I want that one firmly formed before I try to move on to anything else.

So far to compensate I have done what he called "the best SF anybody ever had", all planned and instigated by me even though I am usually pretty shy about that kind of thing. He complained about doing the same old thing so we POJA'ed 5 or 6 new things and did them all yesterday, he seemed pleased. I am making a double layer chocolate cake with gumpaste autumn leaves, branches and a cute pumpkin for his potluck church thing tomorrow, updated my homeschool records, and made him a list of things he has done lately that I find admirable or have deposited love units (gonna do that one daily for him). I am seeking every opportunity to show him physical affection, and I am planning on writing him daily love notes in the mornings and following that up with thoughtful and provacative texts throughtout the day. I am also going to stay up tonight and get the house cleaned better since he said it has been bothering him and carry the laundry down to wash it which I usually ask him to help me with. Right now I am going to go and ask him to play cards with me while the cakes are baking...if I can get him away from the new COD_MW3 game. If not then I will find some other need meeting thing to do.

Anyways thanks for catching that DJ for me! And really if there is anything anyone can think of that might help me out some please let me know!

It was a gamble. I can't harsh on you too much, as I had my wife come and post as well. She still occasionally reads, but for the most part the forum just makes her miserable, because it is just a reminder of her transgression that either of us are here.


I tend to agree that since there is not an active A, and that since you two are really working on getting recovery really started here, that Plan B would be a shortcut to Plan D. Working out EN's and LB's are the marathon, RFA. Killing A's is the part you want to sprint.


I personally advocate regular review of the LBQ and ENQ. Early on, monthly or weekly, and then every 3 months or so, then every 6 and so on as you each learn to meet each others needs and avoid Love Busters. This can be done the same day you each sit down and schedule your UA time.


I had a reply here.... and then I remembered a very key term here; you PoJA'd these new things. I certainly hope that you were honestly enthusiastic!

In fact, running a little bit of PoJA experiment in the SF department can be very fulfilling. Just remember, part of that PoJA has to be that any SF activity that you don't enjoy must end so resentment isn't created.


Seems like a good way to fill his need for admiration. Admiration can also be expressed when you flirt with your husband, and it can also fulfill affection.


Good! SF doesn't start in the bedroom. At least, SF with a capital "F."


Boys and our toys... sigh. I get a little stranged out on this. Not as big of a gamer as I used to be (having a wife that actually pays attention to me now helps!)... but W likes to watch some of the more cinematic ones. I have a hard time believing it... until she gets mad that I quit "just when the story was getting good."

Anyway... UA > COD MW3.




There is!

Now, I don't like to cross threads and all, but he mentioned struggling to meet your need for conversation.

So, I offer the same article to you that I offered to him;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=32&subsublink=302


Hopefully going over that article will help you both develop a conversational style that is mutually enjoyable!

He only agrees to the LBQ and ENQ when we are really strugging, and he does not schedule UA. I have asked but he rarely agrees to anything routine or preplanned, and if he does he rarely follows through on it.


No probem doing it, but planning it makes me nervous. He has been dishonest many times in the past about what he does and does not like when it comes to our SF. I worry less about it when he picks (why would he pick something he doesnt like?), but then again he says he doesnt like picking so really doesnt leave me many options for need fulfillment there.


I need to do some searching online for tips on that, never been much of a flirter. Never really flirted much with DH. I have always been the girl guys viewed as a buddy and never learned the art I guess. Our flirting was me calling him a loser and him pulling my hair. On the bright side we still like to play wrestle, he thinks its fun and it usually leads to SF, so I guess it's not all bad.


Normally I enjoy playing with him. It just seem to happen a LOT. I would like to see UA, kids, Domestic Support and THEN COD. What I usually see is COD and then everything else gets where it fits in after that. It really takes up a lot of time.

As for the article on conversation, we do pretty well at most of it.

The only problem I have is that when it comes to us and our M, it doesnt matter how much I investigate, he does not inform. I get lots of answers like he doesnt know, he has no thoughts or preferences, he isnt good at that sort of thing, etc. He is also often dishonest on the answers he does give (he lied on our most recent ENQ for instance). I am flying blind and really dont know how we are doing as a couple. EVER. It's frustrating and frightening.

He also tells me that I am disrespectful to his opinions, but cannot provide me with the specific actions that I engage in that causes him to feel disrespected. I dont know if it's my wording, my facial expressions, my tone...or the simple fact that I sometimes dont agree with him. Need to come up with something I can do to work on that for him.

It sounds like both of you have some issues with being vulnerable with each other; you when it comes to O&H regarding SF, and him with O&H about himself or his feelings.

That is likely due to a history of Love Busting in those situations. To be able to have intimate conversations, you have to trust that your partner will not AO or DJ you.

I can't remember, but I think it was you to whom I suggested looking at intimacy building?

Well, intimacy is about a whole lot more than the bedroom - it is about having vulnerability with your spouse.

In that regard, the BEST approach is to focus on meeting EN's, and avoiding LB's - most specifically AO and DJ behaviors.

He's here, and he seems to be listening, so have some patience, and hold down the fort, ok?

Remember, you can only control you!

UA time is so important. For my H and me, skipping UA time or not meeting our 15+ hours always makes us feel bad.

A suggestion for POJA. Start with something simple that you pretty much already agree on. Start your discussion with "How would you feel if ..." Then listen for the answer.

It sounds as if there have always been DJs in your relationship. Calling your H a loser sure isn't much of a compliment. One of the things the Harley's said on a recent radio show was that much humor is based on DJs, focuses on faults that men and women have. In our M, we eliminated that kind of humor unless we say it about ourselves. We do joke about the inanimate objects and the dog though. The dog doesn't care if we DJ him.

AM

He reacted very positively to me planning SF, so I am much more comfortable with the thought now than I was before. I think it was enjoyable for us and telling him what I want is not as intimidating now.

As for him I just need to be patient and prove to him that it safe or him to be open to me about his feelings. Since he cant tell me exactly what I am doing that he feels is disrespectful we may depend on the notebook communication for awhile until we get that figured out.


Ok I will start with that and hopefully be able to work up to POJA on UA time. I think ti is going to take a lot to get him to be really enthusiastic about doing UA before game time.


Never really thought of it like that, we both come from families where that kind of teasing is common so it seems normal enough to us I guess. I dont think either of us has ever been hurt by or taken it seriously. I will talk to him about it, but I dont know what he will say, we enjoy teasing and playing around together and do it often. I do think we would enjoy some more sensual flirting, but I have doubts that he would want it to totally replace our current dynamic.

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you! This place is definately something that I am thankful for, and I hope everyone has a great day.

Wanted to post a quick update that things are going pretty well here. We have seen some improvements here that I am very happy about. Mainly in the the way things have been going with the kids, especially DS. We were able to identify and work on some things that H was doing that were absolutely driving me NUTS and come to an agreement for him to try and do things a little differently for a bit and see how he feels about it. So far I think things are going very well, and DS seems so much happier! It was a little bit of a rocky start, even though we mostly agree on the kids, and it was the thing I thought we would have the easiest POJA on. It worked much better when I just wrote down what my goals were, asked him if he would write down his, then we compared. It didnt take us long after that to come to a solution. I think it would be best for us to keep that up, at least for now, when we try POJA on an issue that is any more complicated than picking what we are having for dinner. Well, anything that we may feel emotional about anyway.

Even with a bit of a bumpy start, it still met my need for Conversation, because he did end up telling me quite a bit about his thoughts and feelings about the kids and the things that he thinks it is important for them to learn. He was also willing to POJA with me, and work on an issue that had really been bothering me. It was a happy day here for me.

I think we have also started to work out an issue we were having about Recreation, so hopefully he will be willing to sit down and POJA that with me soon.

UA time is still not what I would like, but I am using that time to clean or try to do some other thing to meet his needs. I have also let him know that I am hurt by the lack of time. Hoping it will improve soon. I used that time last night to make him a little black bag filled with pieces of paper that have suggestions on it for SF. Now when he wants something new or different, he can get ideas from me without putting me on the spot to pick something. If he doesnt like the one he picked he can throw it away and pick again. He seemed happy, and I am way more enthusiastic about it this way.

Then today I made him a list of things that he can do that I find admirable, broken down into the specific need that they meet. I am still keeping him a list going in my notebook of the things he did that day that I liked, but hopefully this will give him a little more guidance on what really makes me feel proudest of him. He has complained about not getting enough admiration, so I wanted to make it as easy as possible for him to know what he can do it get the most of it from me. I want to be able to give him admiration that is really genuine and heartfelt, and not just pick some fluff stuff to put on a list.

Anyways, it's been mostly nice the last few days. And thanks to everyone who has been helping us. We are very thankful to you all this year, and hope you have a great Thanksgiving.

I know my H is posting about all the thanksgiving and family drama, and i am totally at a loss on what to do.

My mom is paying for everything right now, food bills etc. She bought the turkey and cooked it. Idk how to do it since we have always done holidays at my grandmas, and didn't go this year because H didnt want to. After my H got on webcam and his mom annouced to the entire kitchen that my mom wqs cooking her turkey wrong, my mom let my little brother pose for a picture of him acting like he was cutting the turkey to send to my dad who is deployed. This left a scratch in the top of the turkey about half an inch long. I then asked H to come actually carve it, he refused and told me it was tainted and we were trying to replace him as the man of his own house and no one respects him.

I have been crying all day, idk what to do. I know he is upset but mom bought the food and she is paying for all our stuff. I am afraid that telling her she was wrong to do this with food she paid for in a house she is paying the rent on will cause her to leave and we will have no food for our kids and no place to live. He just keeps telling me we disrespected him and i dont know what to do about it.

He has always complained about my family, from the way they raise their kids to the way they spend money and he acts really angry and there is nothing i can do to control those things. I cant do anything about it, but i hear about it all several times a week. I mean really if i could fix those things and make everyone do things exactly the way he says they should then i would, but what does he want me to DO about it? I feel really hurt by the way he always puts my family down, and i have told him that so many times and then he just tells me i am biased and blind and i need to open my eyes to their faults and how they are all out to disrespect him.

Sorry for typos i am posting from my phone and i cant stop crying today.

You guys need to talk. It is really important for him to step up to the plate right now. Instead of arguing with him try something like this:

"Honey, I know this was important for you, I want to understand better, so can you please explain to me how we can handle our difficult situation because I feel trapped between a rock and a hard place with my family helping us right now."

There was an important EN hidden in there that he didn't get fulfilled tonight and you need to find out what it was.

He may feel that he's not providing for the family the way he wants to right now. He will need affirmation and admiration I think.

CV

Rising,

Was there much drinking involved on Thanksgiving? Much of what you have written seems like irrational behavior to me.

AM

No AM, there is no drinking allowed in our house, my H is a recovering alcoholic and drug addict, we dont even keep wine to cook with, nothing alcoholic comes in the door.

Rising,

I am glad to hear you have an alcohol free home. So, something else was going on. Did you and your H POJA your family coming to stay with you? Did you know your H's hopes for Thanksgiving and how he had it pictured in his head? Did you know about your H's vision about carving the turkey with his own family in his own home? It sounds as if your H has not been expressing his feelings and hopes for the future (It is really hard to get to that openness after a military separation and even harder after all the stuff that was happening when your H was in the military).

I suggested on your H's thread that you two look at the chapter about families in the "Lovebuster" book.

I am sorry the holiday was so unpleasent.

AM

I haven't come around here in ages, but curiosity finally got the best of me and I had to come check on everyone's stories. It's good to see that most of those that are familiar to me are doing well in recovery.

I am still with my H, and we are approaching the 2 year anti-versary of our last dday. He has a new job, we bought a cute little fixer upper house, we homeschool. Life is pretty normal. MB prinicipals are always there in our minds, but we have given up following it exactly all the time. We give ourselves room for human failings. Crankiness happens and being busy, so sometimes LBs happen or needs don't get met for a bit. But we come through it, and forgive each other. It feels more real and intimate to us that way, where we can be our real selves instead of perfect all the time. So its mostly MB, we are just more relaxed about it now.

I am not in love with him, but I am much closer than I was the last time I posted. Time does heal, and staying away from the boards and the triggers helps too.

I am sending prayers for everyone's recovery journey.