Hey vets, so is it necessary to continue snooping after exposure? It did not kill the EA, I assume and know they are still talking/text. In the event it turns physical etc, am I better off not knowing to make plan A more effective, aka less stressful on me? Thanks for any input.

not a vet, but I doubt anyone will tell you to stop snooping.

Hi, Rain. Can you tell us a little more? Are you married? Any kids? How old are both of you? Who is your WH having the EA with? Is she a co-worker? To whom did you expose? Sorry, lots of questions It'll help us if we know more about your situation.

You continue snooping and continue exposing until the affair is killed. Since you are a female, you will want to plan to go into Plan B if the affair is not killed after a couple of weeks.

Put a GPS on his vehicle.
*** LINK *** to GPS info

Also, click the carrot/stick link in my sig line.
Read the complete thread.

From your thread on MB 101:


What have you done about YOUR EA?

Have you exposed your EA to anyone?

Is/was your EA with a married man?
If OM is married, his wife needs to know.

Is your reluctance to snoop (otherwise known as getting all the facts) linked to the fact that you've been having an EA of your own?

From your thread on MB 101:

Your H's EA is with a close friend (former).
Does this mean she is also close geographically?
All the more reason to GPS his car.
Just do it.
Think of it as "insurance".

Is OW married? If she is .....
Are you 100% certain her H knows?

All in all, your situation is VERY hopeful.

Hi all, will reply in length later. The short version is: Yes...I exposed my affair at the same time I exposed his, basically added an addendum about myself in the exposure letter. I needed accountability...I was near the tale end of my EA...this nipped it for me. My exposure was via Facebook. About 25 private messages to circle of influence, work, friends, family. Some emails for those without FB. I used one of the letters from this forum. It was awesome...like a bomb went off and I do not regret it. NC since January 24 for me, the day my WS called a timeout on us. One week later...I figured out his affair. She was a close friend, used what she knew about me (she knew of my EA) to get close. It is our first affair on both sides.

Hi all, will reply in length later. The short version is: Yes...I exposed my affair at the same time I exposed his, basically added an addendum about myself in the exposure letter. I needed accountability...I was near the tale end of my EA...this nipped it for me. My exposure was via Facebook. About 25 private messages to circle of influence, work, friends, family. Some emails for those without FB. I used one of the letters from this forum. It was awesome...like a bomb went off and I do not regret it. NC since January 24 for me, the day my WS called a timeout on us. One week later...I figured out his affair. She was a close friend, used what she knew about me (she knew of my EA) to get close. It is our first affair on both sides.

Thank all. I appreciate the advice, I will keep digging. I thought that Plan A was from 3-6 months after exposure? Why only 3ish weeks Mel? I get it though, each day its so hard to be the best...when your dying inside.

Hi Marital Bliss, Yes, I am married 10 years with 2 children. We were a great couple, but after reading all the books I wasn't meeting his need for admiration & conversation. He is rewriting history...saying our marriage was kinda awful. (for him) We were not perfect but had a BLAST, the envy of our friends. MY EA was with a very well-known person, out-of-state. It was very hurtful to my husband, he did ask me to stop on several occasions but I didn't until the night he said he couldn't be with me anymore. She was a very close friend that is divorcing her husband.... she knew of my EA. So apparently they started texting, then calling. Then my WH started to hide it. He is an honest man, but I don't know who he is NOW. Soooo crazy, never in a million years would I think we would be here. I exposed to everyone that they had in common on FB...and her family, work. Also, sent some emails. I revealed my affair too, he insisted on that. I had to send another round of messages, ugh. But, I am glad it is out in the open cause I am not perfect. So HUGE aftershocks in our town and I have a ridiculous amount of support. Everyone loves my husband too, so they are supporting, trying to reason with him. I am thankful I did expose, but she is leaning on him now quite hard, she doesn't have anyone but my wonderful, albeit WH The texting is constant...how do I address it without LB? Also...he is probably meeting her tonight. I do not see the physical attraction AT ALL. (FYI...I was a bikini model not all that long ago...I get plenty of attention and he is proud of me.) But, I guess I was too busy with the kids to TALK to him though. I get why we are here, I just don't know how to fix it. I am going to counseling and he indicated he would be interested. He said he may reconsider his position when my actions change. I need to demonstrate honesty, not judgemental, lower expectations, fight fairly etc. I am working hard on all these...but it is so hard when his attention is elsewhere. He moved out of our bedroom on Jan. 24th, the night he needed a break.My heart is broken...I also was going thru withdrawal from my EA so the pain was extra fierce.... I love all the threads, they help me through each day

Calmly, lovingly and assertively do your best to prevent them from meeting tonight. Get in the way of this wrong behavior. That is not a LB. It is being an assertive, caring wife who is protecting her marriage and family.

Let him know you do not agree with his texting. Let him know it is not allowed. Let him know you are not going to sit by while he disrepects you and your children.

Calmly. Lovingly. Assertively.

Tell him no.

You're not going to accept it.

Dr. Harley explains that this is the difference between what men and women can handle emotionally.

Typically, wives can only handle 2-4 weeks of a solid Plan A. Husbands can typically endure a longer Plan A, up to several months.

Making it difficult for a wayward spouse to communicate and/or meet with their affair partner is not a LB.

That seems to be a big misconception among betrayed spouses in the middle of Plan A.

I know of a man who is currently being cheated on, and he was watching his WW's dogs while she met up with her OM.

Yes, he was willingly doing this.

Doing the best we can to protect our loved ones from harmful behavior is a caring, responsible thing to do. Putting up road blocks is a caring, responsible thing to do.

If my friend is drunk, I would make it difficult for her to drive. I wouldn't try to reason with her. You can't reason with a drunk. But I'd take her keys from her. I'd put her in my car and drive her home. I'd do what I can do.

If my teenage daughter was planning to have sex with a boy tonight and I knew about it, I'd take away her phone and other communication tools, I'd plan a very important something else for her to do. Whatever it takes.

Yes, she could still run away and have sex with the guy. A wayward spouse could do the same.

But, I'm going to do whatever I can to make it difficult to carry out a harmful behavior.

I'm going to do it calmly, lovingly, assertively.

THIS answers your question about what he sees in OW compared to a former bikini model.

It's not unusual for men married to world-class beautiful women to have affairs.

It's all about the ENs. Yanno?



Per the adultery script.
People get lazy in a good marriage.
I know.
Personal experience.



Your H had his A for the same reasons you did.
Opportunity plus ENs met by OP plus weak boundaries.



She is needy, therefore she gives your H lots and lots of ADMIRATION.
Your H was empty due to lack of YOUR admiration. Why? Because you had been giving your admiration to an out of state famous guy.



All adultery begins with lies.
Including yours, right?
The BIGGEST lies are the ones we tell ourselves making it "alright" to do what we know is wrong.



It's best when all is out in the open.







GPS his CAR!!!!!!
Really.
I could not be more serious.



He is falling in love with OW because OW is meeting his intimate EN of admiration .... and, newsflash ... it may already have become a PA.
When a man falls in love with a woman, he wants physical contact.
Her comparative beauty to yours has ZERO to do with it.

And, the little lie you just told yourself is screaming at me !!!
You may have been "too busy with the kids" .... but you were also too busy filling OMs lovebank to be bothered with thinking about your own H.

GPS his car !!!!!!



Honestly, your BEST bet would be to make an appointment with the Harleys.
I am serious.



Plan A is hard.
So what?
College was hard.
My career was hard.
Marriage is hard.
parenting is hard.

Let's not get all lazy about this.
If it's important, and it is, then what's "hard" got to do with it?



Move him back in the bedroom.
Remove other bedding.
Just tell him where he will be sleeping. In the marital bed.

By the way, this is the reason I suspect the EA is also a PA.






Call the Harleys.
Time is of the essence.
Forget individual therapy.
You're not crazy.
You need a marriage recovery plan.

Best of luck.
We're rooting for you!

For women it is 3 to 4 weeks and men, up to 6 months.

Wow...it would be devastatimg if it indeed is physical. I installed an sms (text) retrieval on his phone...but he had deleted all her communication. what is the cheapest gps systm?

LINK to MB's own "special ops" ***wink*** forum

There is a thread just for GPS choices.

You can bet the farm OW is doing everything in her power to make sure it is.

I think chances are, that ship sailed awhile ago, and thusly, WH moved out of the marital bed.

.... sorry .... but we keep it real here.

Hi friends...just checking in. Been busy keeping my WH busy with fun family stuff, hopefully he is too tired to check in with OW. One can only hope I do realize that it is likely to develop into a physical affair (although my husband really would be the last person I would expect to do that...reading MB site I know better now!) Fortunately I exposed early...and full force...and there hasn't been an opportunity. He has gone out for beers with mutual male friends, so I suppose he had a quick chance there but r Being self-employed has its advantages, I can monitor closely...Except for stupid phone

So I plan on setting up a phone session with the Harley...pricey but if I get a clear plan that would be great. In your opinion, is this too early for phone coaching? I am bummed he is not in our bed, but we have both retreated to the spare room after fights etc so I can't attach too much significance. Basically my WH says that he needs to see me change...my actions, not my words. I have been dishonest (my EA) sneaky, LB by being critical, not meeting needs for admiration. (kinda hard to do with him still possibly in an EA!) I say possibly because I cannot find any evidence and he may want me to think it continues to punish me for my EA and mad about exposure. Doesn't want me to win so soon after dropping the bomb. Thoughts?

Just got ahold of WH phone. Nothing...damn. Prob. deleted it all. I did block her # and delete contact info. He will have to dig to get #... he will be pissed...what do I say to that.

"I wanted to help you minimize the temptation. I know it can be hard."

He hasn't agreed to NC tho...he will accuse me of being sneaky etc. I need a line that will not lb but also let him know it is for us

People in affairs have an annoying habit of twisting reality. You are not being sneaky. You are doing whatever it takes to end the A so you two have a fighting chance.

When I found out about my FWW's A, I told her I know about it and I won't allow it to continue. I told her, " If I didn't love you, I wouldn't be putting forth the effort to save our M. I'm doing this because I CARE."

Hi there...checking in. Super bummed..found WS sent an email to ow...it was a joke. He texted it too a bunch of people too, but I wasn't included. I told him it made me sad and of course he said it wasn't a big deal. My question of the night...what if am willing and able to do a longer plan a? It has been really go

Whoops..sorry. meant to say...plan A has been good for us. Lots of talks, I have written letters that he has responded well to. We have been good teammates with kids, not much affection between us but I am trying. He has gotten to see a better side of me, probably my individual counseling and prayer has taught me more patience and kindness than I thought I could ever have. He wants a less critical, less judgmental, more honest, more meaningful and deeper me...which I think plan a is helping with. I used to fly off the handle regularly...not anymore. I think also my recent EA has given me more understanding and I am still coping with guilt so I really think a longer plan A in our case would be beneficial. So far...all evidence points to EA... the full exposure may have helped prevent it from going farther. So if anyone can help me...I just feel in a good place with Plan A. I am working on me...lots of friends, sports, housec ean and nice meals when he gets home, staying busy with kids stuff, and being an ear for my husband when he will have me. It had felt like a happy home, minus the sex I am the more male personality anyway, he is sensitive. So maybe a long plan a will help??? I do plan on calling Harley for coaching session, just rereading HNHN first cause I was waaay too emotional the first time around. Thanks for any an all advice...appreciate it!

That phrase should read...it feels like a happy home, minus the sex. Sorry...dang phone and yes it sucks not having him in our bed, but my EA really was awful...he is by no means over it.

New development...he is staying elsewhere...says with dad or sister but ow most likely. He says my agressive tactics r not ok. Aka the exposure and installing spy ap on his phone. He says sharing details with friends is destructive. Also he feels I am spying on him when he was in spare room. I would see him texting when I walked by. He is very sensitive and this has driven him away. Looks like he has made contact with attorney. Now what.

Are you convinced yet that this is more than an EA?

Did you put a GPS on his vehicle?
Which brand?

If you are talking about staying in Plan A a longer time than recommended for a wife, I ask you .... what parts of Plan A are you failing to do well?

I suspect your lack of effort mostly comes under the stick section.
And fear is your strongest motivator.

Am I correct?

I feel that I have followed the carrot and stick to the letter....but that is the problem. He feels I was too aggressive and that I have lost all his respect by spying and digging. I don't think I need a gps...I know exactly where he is going. found out he is communicating with an attorney. Best keylogger? Definately more than EA...u are absolutely right.

Sorry, RRGA. The realization it really was a PA is tough to take.

Your H is speaking normal fogbabble. Of course he's angry, and of course he says he's "lost his respect for you." He is projecting and avoiding. HE is the one who doesn't deserve respect, while you are fighting for your marriage. His reaction to exposure is the same as just about every wayward's on this board. He is angry you blew up his A, and blew up his little fantasy world. But you did the right thing.

I'll let others more experienced in snooping speak to your choice of GPS/Keylogger.

Hang in there.

Hi all...just a quick question and update. Still in plan a...2 months in..I can do it for awhile I'm sure. Why? I guess I am a less sensitive type of woman...probably because I just came off my own EA in January so I get that he needs time. We are doing tons of family things, some days it feels normal. He sleeps at his dads house a couple blocks away, but comes home to get kids to school and stays till bedtime, also the kids take turns with him there on most nights. I amazon friendly, upbeat as possible and home life is pretty good. The kids and I all go to counseling weekly. Noooow, my question is, the heat from exposure has waned. I believe he is still in touch with OW, do I stay cheerful. Or if I know they had contact do I confront or even acknowledge? I don't want to withdraw love units. I feel that their relationship will fizzle out, everytime I apply pressure, like monitoring phone, he freaks out. I know he is not stupid and I feel he is close to coming thru the fog. Should I Let nature take its course, Plan A nicely. Or pressure?

Apparently WH in NC however, I am last to know because he didn't believe in exposure, thought that he could stop privately. Basically didn't want to admit exposure works. He is very hurt, my EA, withdrawal from his affair, our underlying issues, etc etc. Still not ready to work on our marriage because he doesnt trust me. Says I ruined lives because of exposure. Please, how do i respond to that? We live in a smaller town, everyone knows of his affair, (EA, possible pa but if so very short-lived, maybe a ons if anything) they are both humiliated? He is very sensitive and the exposure needs a great defense in my case. What do I say to justify? Not that it worked, which it did, but why I did it.

You just keep saying to your husband that you love him and you did what you had to do to save your marriage, Exposure makes the affair public and not secret anymore.........that is a good thing, it's hard to continue when everyone knows what you are doing to your family............the affair couple should be accountable.....
But I must tell you if your husband is still in contact with the OW the emotional attachment remains and you cannot work on recovering your marriage........
If he still is in contact and it sounds like it otherwise he would be transparent with his whereabouts and communication devices.......
I would go into Plan B, give him a letter saying until contact stops you can't see him anymore, let him feel what his decisions are doing to your marriage.....
Don't see him, don't talk to him until contact stops........
If you let him have both of you, he will never come back to the marriage.
Think about it.........this is called cake eating.........

Thanks so much Jessi, that will be my mantra. "I love you and I did what I had to do to save our marriage." As far as I can tell, there is NC. The strange part about our situation is that I had a very serious EA from Sept. '10 to January 2011. I stopped when he said he needed a break from "us". He had repeatedly aked me to stop the contact/Facebook with the OM, but like an idiot I ignored him.

At that point, he had been in a friendship that developed into an EA for approx. 3 weeks with my good friend. He was asking her for advice, he didn't know what to do with me...I was hell bent on pursuing aka "sexting" this OM. Anyway, she used my inattention to swoop in. Nice huh? She is def. not a catch, he knows that. Thus the NC, etc. However, he did not want to admit to me that exposure works, so he made me believe the "affair" was continuing so I could feel what he has felt for months.

He is so furious about the exposure because he felt he could stop at any time, it would fizzle out, I just embarrassed everyone etc. Anyway, I do feel a longer Plan A is necessary, we ae making progress and he started counseling on his own, took that initiative. Our underlying issues are not meeting EN's (duh) and plan A has allowed me to work on this and we are progressing. If his affair came out of nowhere, I would Plan B. However, my EA was a HUGE part of this. Does this make sense? I just need some good, sweet quotes to justify exposure He thinks it was so hurtful and unnecessary....lol. I can't wait to get started on an MB plan, someday He is just not ready, my EA was too awful...

Ughhh, WH wants an apartment. More one on one time with kids. Nice. Now what?

Hi again,
Your husband is mad about exposure and that is a good thing, if you look up affair fog babble on this site you will see your husband is doing and saying a lot that everyone else does when they are emotionally attached to someone else...
The first thing that must happen is absolutely NO CONTACT between them and then the withdrawal from the affair person can happen, if he sees her at all they will stay connected and you two won't have a chance to rebuild your marriage, if he refuses and since you already exposed, PLan A him for a time and then when you can't do that anymore you go into Plan B .......once he doesn't have you meeting him needs anymore it may wake him up to what his life will really be like..............
Be loving but firm.........if he moves out to an apartment this might be where Plan B will start. make your boundaries firm........don't be a door mat.....

Thank u Jessi! And plan A still possible if he gets an apartment? I would like to give it a looong shot since we also are recovering from my EA.

Yes it is possible to still Plan A him when you two have contact, you should decide how long you can do this, pick a date and if he is still not interested in fixing the marriage then you have to go into Plan B and see if that will shake him up, there are some people on here that have successfully Plan Aed from afar......maybe some of the vets who remember can link you to their threads....
You always have to make sure though that your husband knows that you will only commit to the marriage if the other woman is gone and out of his life for good....
good luck

Hi all, Got some good advice from Dr. Harley on the radio show today! I am staying in Plan A through August. WH still most likely in love with OW, even though contact may have stopped. It will pass. One question I forgot to ask is what the hell do I say to OW. With soccer and baseball in full swing I have seen her on several occasions. I need something to say, it is inevitable that we will be face to face soon. BTW, she is a bar-fly hag lol.

You should NOT see her at all. Seeing her only keeps you triggered.

Rain, it is real important that you separate your lives so that you and your H never see the OW again. I understand that you are in Plan A, but that does not mean that you ever see or interact with the OW. Your lives have to be completely separate in order to ever recover anyway. For example, if your H ever ends his affair, Dr Harley would tell you to even move to another state, if need be, so he will never see her again. The OW should be completely removed from your lives forever.

I heard that!! I have to agree with Dr. Harley, they are still in contact. That's why he's guarding that cell phone. Sorry

You guys are right. He still has the fantasy that they will be together. Our plan has been to move, we have a business opportunity out of state but it is on hold since he will not work on marriage. I can't avoid her now because of sports, I refuse to miss the children's games and seeing her is not painful, I pity her (and him too for that matter) The best part is everyone knows she is the OW. I have a ton of support, she must be very embarrased to walk around our town. So ignoring her is best? (until we move if WH comes back...)

I don't understand why you wouldn't take your kids out of any sport where she will be? That is not appropriate for your kids to be around her. Your kids should not be exposed to her either. Extraordinary precautions should be taken to avoid her at all costs. I don't agree that ignoring her is best because that misses the point. Avoiding her is best.

What will you do when you go to Plan B in 2 months? What will you do if your marriage reconciles? I can think of no circumstance where it would ever be appropriate to see her at all. None.

I doubt she feels embarrassed at all. She is still seeing your H and is very likely not embarrassed at all.

I don't think its fair for the kids to suffer because their father is behaving badly. They love soccer, baseball and softball. Without that routine we would go mad, practices & games are keeping busy and sane. So to clarify they are not on the same teams, I see her from a distance and its a huge outdoor complex. At some point we will pro probably cross paths.

It's not fair for your kids to be dragged into their father's affair like that and be exposed to the OW. Its not fair that their father is having an affair, but this is not about "fair" but about the realities of life. That is not good for any of you. Pretending like their life is normal when its not, is not healthy for them in the least. And it gives them the impression that you don't care very much about their father's affair. If you think you will cross paths, I would take extraordinary steps to avoid that.

You need to start taking steps to separate your lives completely. There is no sport that is worth continued contact with an OW.

Let me put this another way. Your children's lives have been irretrievably affected by their fathers affair. That is just a simple fact of life. Not facing that truth leaves your marriage and your children vulnerable to the enemy of their family. The OW is the enemy of their family and staying in touch with her in any way, shape or form will always endanger their family in some way.

Going about like the affair is nothing leaves them vulnerable to the OW and gives them the impression that adultery is nothing. It also makes it easier for your H to imagine he can make the transistion from you to the OW.

You are teaching the kids by your example that being around the OW is not anything to be avoided. How confusing that must be for your kids.

I don't think its fair for the kids to suffer because their father is behaving badly. They love soccer, baseball and softball. Without that routine we would go mad, practices & games are keeping busy and sane. So to clarify they are not on the same teams, I see her from a distance and its a huge outdoor complex. At some point we will pro probably cross paths.

Move! Then they can have their sports and you can have your space. Its a win win

You are absolutely right Mel. I will see what I can do....sooo frustratng. I can look at schedule online and see where/when playing. I liked the challenge of seeing her though! The kids do know she is not a friend to our family and hurt us. I will remind them. What are the most appropriate words for a 7 and 11 year old?

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

You liked the challenge of seeing her?

What does that even mean?

Ok...to clarify...I got so much support after exposure, friends, community etc. Everyone knows she is the OW. I can hold my head high, I did the right thing. It sucks to be her, because everyone knows she is not to be trusted. That is why I am confident when I see her, she looks scared and hopefully feels the shame of all those eyes watching.

She may be nervous around you, but she doesn't give a crap about what anyone else says because she is likely still seeing your husband.

Is he still wanting his own apartment? If he did that, I'd go to Plan B immediately.

Oh, and I'd definitely confront OW in front of everyone at that game. Tell her (loudly) that you know she slept with your husband and she needs to stay the h away from you, your husband, and your children or there is going to be hell to pay. Then turn around and walk away.

Take charge of this. There's a difference between avoiding LB behavior and being a doormat. Just my two-cents.

So got a var....will find out soon enough if there is contact.

Hey, NW, she was on the radio show and Dr Harley advised her to stay in Plan A for a couple of months based on her situation.

RRA, when I was listening to the segment (I didn't hear the entire thing) I was wondering if you were a forum member and then I saw this thread

I am sure that exposure has shamed the OW but if the A/contact hasn't ended (which it doesn't sound like it has) then, no, I don't think going there and *glaring* at her will really do too much. It will do more damage to you and your children than any benefit you get from watching her squirm, KWIM?

I know the sports thing stinks, I had to pull my daughter from basketball because my sister's H's OW was a coach and they would be crossing paths. You would think she would leave the school, etc, after all the trouble my sister and I made there for her but no...unfortunately, these POSOW have a lot of nerve...

Great!!

Good girl!!

Hi...no evidence on var. Will keep trying. Last night was a huge Love buster tho had a great dinner with kids and friends. Went to frozen yogurt and realized ow best friends were there. (formerly my friends and a couple that my husband still spends time with-real winners-not) WH proceeded to talk to them for a full 5 minutes. We paid for ice cream and left. I proceeded to tell him how disrespectful this was to our family. He shouted for me to stop talking about this in front of the kids, and I couldn't keep my mouth shut any longer. The kids were confused why they weren't our friends and I told them. He screamed at me to shut up (not like him at all!) I was calm but damage was done. Today (Easter!) He skips church and tells our 11 year old daughter he is thinking of getting an apartment. She is devastated and 7 year old son is sad and confused. He does not say a word to me all day. I wish I would have kept my mouth shut. Too late, big LB. Sooo, what in general are rules for apt? Do kids visit? Stay overnight? THIS is their home, right? If he wants to see them great but overnights there? I'm thinking no way! That is his space for privacy, carry on affair, work on issues...whatever. what do I tell our kids? He said he wants more one on one time with them, thats why he wants space. I call BS on that. I have had a great plan A, until now. Sucky...any suggestions? BTW, Dr. Harley said he is probably still having an affair and keep with Plan A until August. (i was on radio show) thanks!

Actually, I listened to that program, and I remember him switching to saying that you should go plan B sooner once you said that he was not allowing you two to be physical. I think that once he heard that, he assumes that he's probably getting it elsewhere.....

I think the signs look bad as far as the affair continuing. I think if it moves out, its Plan B time.

but I am not expert, obviously...

Hi Mehr...true! Dr. Harley did say that, but off air we spoke how he will usually only have sex if his heart?feelings?emotions are all in a row. I wish he was more like the typical man....so I can win him back. Unfortunately I am kinda the male in our relationship. So far there is no evidence at all (yet!) Of any contact. The Var/email has been clean but I will keep trying. His struggle seems internal, he thinks we will never be happy again. Or he doesn't want to try and fall into out same old patterns. Or after his EA/PA?, only she can make him happy and he is pining away for her. Grrr. I have encouraged him to listen to HNHN on the ipod (itunes!) But no luck. I know the online program could save us, but he has no interest in trying to work on anything. Also Mehr, you are doing a great job on Plan B. I will need your help if/when I get to that point. The apartment may just be it.

RainRain, he is still in the affair. That is evidenced by the fact that he won't come home. Getting evidence is good, though, because that way you can bring his affair out into the open.

I would also suggest you start plan A like Dr Harley suggested. Lecturing your H and starting fights with him like you did, is NOT Plan A, it is Plan make-the-OW-look-good. Do you think the OW is lovebusting him? I would focus on ATTRACTING HIM back, instead of repelling him.

Thanks Mel. I wish I had kept my mouth SHUT. Plan A has been so helpful, getting along Soo well until then, now I feel we took 10 steps back! The only good thing is our daughter told him she will not go to his apt. If he gets one. She thought of this all on her own Good girl. Of course she may not have a choice He looks a hundred years old today...kids' tears and pleading for him to not go took a toll. I just watched it unfold and my heart broke but I gave him an Easter gift and let him know I care. This was a turning point for our family but I don't know which way he will go...

Also...he is terribly hurt by my EA, he can never picture us normal again. The whole community watches his every move after the big exposure. He feels trapped. Last night he sent in financial docs for our franchise out of state. (I snooped) This is a good sign as I can't imagine he would leave kids behind. Or afford it with a divorce...we shall see....praying.

Lovebusters do happen in Plan A ~ at least they did for me. Try not to dwell on it but it is important to have a strategy for when you are starting to feel your anger/frustration build. For me it was busying myself with the kids, a chore in the house or going for a ride, etc.

Also just some food for thought but if you are unable to control your lovebusters, it is a sign that you perhaps need to move into Plan B sooner than you had anticipated.

Thanks Susie, I feel better today. Finally got the whole story today and my heart is lighter. Yesterday, Easter, my daughter found an apartment brochure after he cleaned out his truck, he had it for more than a month. That is what sparked the awful conversation and my daughters tears. He didn't choose to tell her on Easter, it just happened and he is not sure what he will do, he was throwing the brochure away buuuut....Idk! He was too furious from the night before to go to church and tell me their conversation, and my poor sweet girl only told me half the story. That's what I get for jumping to conclusions...grr. I think after Friday I can control my LB's, that was one of only a couple in 3 months. So back to the drawing board I guess. Also, thank u vets for your help here!

So still no evidence on VAR. My daughter has access to his phone and has checked it and nothing there for more than 6 weeks. (after exposure she is super sensitive to him texting etc. I have never asked her to look, her curiosity has done the job for me.) Email clean too. Soo basically I think it has been approx.4-6 weeks since contact. Now, my theory and vets help me out...he is in withdrawal. Seems depressed, was volatile on Saturday. Says he can't work on relationship, has these walls that may never come down.

How do I break through these walls before its too late? He may get an apartment soon....

just keep being the best you can be, look good, smell good, be compassionate and understanding.........
the withdrawal state lasts a couple of months depending on the length of the affair........
Just keep checking, if he moves out his life won't be any better, with no contact, no plan.
Just keep telling him he is worth it the marriage is worth it......
Hang in there, this time frame is the hardest a lot of rejection, right now you have to be strong enough for both of you,
jessi

Never assume the affair is over, while looking for an apartment may be him looking for space I have know affair people to follow this same route , they may be purposefully keeping apart till the dust settles or have gone deep underground. You should assume they are working on a plan to be together and are bidding their time. The only way you can be certain is if he stays at home, you keep a very close eye on him and he actively works on the marriage or you polygraph him.

Unfortunately I have seen this tactic before. If he is to take a PC with can you load a keylogger that sends you the information across the web and have spyware on his phone.

Be cautiously optimistic that the affair is dead.

My first instinct is that yes that the apartment is to start his new life, much easier out of sight. However it is ME he doesn't trust (I had an EA of about 6months that would have been a PA if there was an opportunity) the OW is dating etc, she could never be his partner in this town, the exposure was far and deep and they are watched like hawks. I am really embarrased for him actually, cause I didn't realize the repercussions. It's for the best tho. If they are underground then genus hiding it well, I have VAR and access to computer. I will keep assuring him this marriage is worth it. These walls he has are sooooo high and solid I feel discouraged!

Will he spend any one on one time with you?

He is trying to avoid the one on one, he is willing to do lots of family stuff but he won't allow himself to get close to me.

Please help. he is in contact. var revealed it... now what

It is physical, meeting for sex all the time and totally underground...MELODY LANE WAS RIGHT! I even heard the I love you at the end. What the hell next? Plan B? Change locks? Attorney? Help! I want to make it work...my plan A was great, he knows what he is missing! Fully exposed to kids tonite and a dozen friends. Should I reopen my Facebook and put my status as jilted wife. Can Dr. Harley help? I was on the radio show and I didn't have all this info. Ughhhh!

Make sure you expose to her family and friends as well, ensure they know she is a predator and is actively working to destroy your family. Furthermore let them know why he wants an apartment. Your children must never meet the OW nor if she goes to the apartment must they visit him there. A formal legal separation document clearly stipulating this is a must.

Now that you have confirmed his antics get the IM in place pronto, plan B is to protect you, start as soon as.

{{{{RRGA}}}}}

I am so sorry! Yes, email the show giving them all the info.

Hang in there!

Have you exposed this OW? Her parents? FB friends?

Yes, did a huge exposure in February. It drove them waaay underground. The whole community knows.

So I am calm again, what a night. So exposed again to approx. 20 friends and coworkersband our children. I included the sordid sex, prior it was just an EA. Sooo, since Dr. Harley said he was still having this affair, should I still do Plan A thru August like he suggested? I think I can handle it...

So I am calm again, what a night. So exposed again to approx. 20 friends and coworkersband our children. I included the sordid sex, prior it was just an EA. Sooo, since Dr. Harley said he was still having this affair, should I still do Plan A thru August like he suggested? I think I can handle it...

RRGA, I would still expose the PA to OW's parents/FBfriends. You only exposed the EA to them, right?

I honestly don't know if Dr H would recommend such a long Plan A had he known your H was having a PA. He thought it was EA and possibly that your H couldn't get over your EA/exposure but really it seems he has been gaslighting you. I would drop an email giving him the update.

PA vs EA
Oh ignorance is bliss!
No. Knowledge is power.
I would not let my ego go wild with the horror of it being physical. Your life is no different in truth magically now that you know.
If you can regroup emotionally and continue plan A.....do so until you email the show with an update for further guidance and then calmly, cooly, womanly and firmly do what the Dr. suggests.
And "I love you" is a given in an affair. Love is a love bank balance that was built on focused attention on meeting someone's emotional needs.
You need to keep meeting the emotional needs you can during plan A until you calmly but surely go to plan B and stay there unless/until your WH realizes the affair sucks and it dies a natural death in the real world.
Dating is fun.
Real committed, constant relationships are not as easy.

Please help me compose a text to OW, something along the lines of stay away from my husband and family or else. (I am too tired to think about the words) I I would like threatening but not so much there is legal action. Help

Is your WH still in the house? Does OW have kids? Have you spoken to her H at all?

He is making plans to get out of house. Did a second exposure today, he is furious. OW is divorced. A good time to finally contact her, I called once in January. I need to be firm and threatening, the whole community is behind me.

Speaking from experience (I have confronted 3 OW IRL, one of them my sister's H's OW) letter, email or TM is basically ineffective. If you are going to do it, I would do it face to face and make sure you bring someone with you for support and to keep things under control.

Exposure is much more effective. I asked but you didn't answer...have you told her family? Have you FB exposed her? My sister's OW that I mentioned above ended all contact after being exposed on FB...

Is OW's ex in the same town? He may be able to give you some ammo. And also, are you sure she really is divorced and not in the process of divorce...we hear that one often only to find out there is a surprised husband who didn't know he was divorced. If they are, he may be able to help you in some way.

What is making plans? You may want to discuss the finances with him...don't grill him but put practical questions to him so that hopefully he will have a light bulb moment that fantasyland and D aren't cheap and he is aware that he still has to support you and your children. You can even ask him what his thoughts are on child visitation. Most WSs don't like those pesky sorts of details.

Hi Susie, oh yes! Huuuuge exposure in Feb. All her family, friends, coworkers, mutual friends etc. Etc. Very far reaching, all her out of state relatives too! Exposed again today to 15 families and friends and our kids. I am in contact with her ex-husband, he is sick of her. Sooo, I have not confronted her since Feb. but I would like to send a warning text. Then face to face when the opportunity arises.

If you really want to do the warning text, OK, but I am telling you, it doesn't really do much. A call would be better...

But we did not warn my sister's OW and it SHOCKED her when the three of us confronted her. She HATED it...which is a good thing IMO I would do it that way if possible!

So my friends and I will confront. What words are the most powerful? I don't need a harassment charge! Can I say I will make her life a living hell etc?

I would not say that...because your idea of hell and hers may be totally different. Since OW is willing to carry on her A in public, I doubt your words are going to phase her. Just hang tight. You may need to confront her later but I don't think I'd do it just yet. I don't see it being very effective at this point.

Hmmm, the affair has been on and off since Jan. Physical now. I just wonder if confronting her will help, she is just biding her time!

Make the OW's life unpleasant , chose your words and timing , be firm and in control. She will try bite back and may try threaten you, don't waver.

BR has a good point because my sister's OW would not publicly admit the A and once she was exposed to her family and some friends on FB she cut off all communication. It sounds like your OW is even more brazen than that so I am wondering now if a confrontation would help you at this point....

Melodylane & Pepper & others....Ummm...you were all absolutely correct. The VAR revealed that this was a physical affair earlier on (late Feb. Thru middle of March?) They did stop for several weeks and had picked up again sometime in the middle of April. Soooo, exposed again that it is a PA. Burned their conversations on a disc and let a couple people hear it for proof. Then, exposed.
This has been very, very intense. Children know and he is LIVID, previously I had said she was a bad friend that hurt mommy. Now they know she is having sleepovers etc. And taking daddy away. Any good links to the necessity of exposure for children? He says I am destroying them, ya ya, like sleeping with her doesnt?
Sooo, am going to confront her in person with some friends soon, she was terrified of me before they went underground. Then she got confident cause they hid it. Now she is completely freaked and I hope this convinces her that this affair is waaay too much trouble.
Also, her ex has been a great ally. He passes on any info I choose to give him, like how hilarious it would be if we passed out the discs around town since gossip is the main pastime here.
I feel like I am back to square one...he is furious and all the hard work in Plan A will be overshadowed by this. I want to continue in Plan A, knowing it is Physical shouldn't change that but will make it more difficult. Suggestions? Feeling like exposure was biggest love buster, how do I rebuild my account when he will barely talk to me and is so mad kids know? (they are giving him hell!)

Are you wanting the links for yourself or to show him? You really can't educate a WS about this stuff. Of course he is angry! He's been caught AGAIN and he knows this is going to cause problems for him and OW.

Try not to react to his rantings. Stay consistent in your Plan A actions, until you can't. That's when you go to Plan B. I know you want to stay in Plan A, but you really DO need to get your Plan B prepared and ready to launch. Do you have the letter written? Do you have IMs ready (and educated about being an IM?) Will you be protected legally (i.e., support, visitation, kid exchanges, etc.?)

I'm so sorry that it's a PA, but it's no surprise.

As far as contacting OW at this point? Why? Remember, that a lot of affairs THRIVE on the drama.

If you have the constitution, fortitude and friends to back you, I would confront her, it works wonders. If you choose this route plan it have words ready, be calm, say you piece and let her feel your wrath. Confrontation if done well is a successful tool, you must be certain your are secure if you go this route.

Exposure is not the lovebuster.
His infidelity is....exposure is just what it is.....truth. Unattractive truth.

Continue to plan A. It is difficult to listen to the venom spewed by your once team-mate spouse. It sucks hearing and dealing with it.

Remain calm on the exterior (though you may be horrified at the things WH says to you in your mind). Remain calm appearing.

You did what is right for the children. WH is blameshifting the situation and you just need to know that. Trying to educate him is not going to be do-able right now. Ride the venom out.

I would, if you have friends backing you up (and to witness the confrontation), confront OW. Make sure you don't physically attack her or threaten to physically attack her with the witnesses there. Verbally tell her you know all about it. That it must stop. That she is never going to be accepted or even have the kind of relationship any woman would ever truly want with a man if she continues. That she needs to find a man who doesn't belong to another woman and have children with one. She needs to get over him and find an unattatched man.

Thank you so much, my friends who are just pillars in this community will be there for support. She does not like drama and is trying to salvage what is left of her reputation.
Also, I need to be clear that I do not believe in divorce and will make it very difficult, expensive and lengthy. She divorced her husband last month and waived the waiting periods, it was super quick but they had been on the verge for years. (20 year marriage with multiple affairs, emotional abuse and alcoholism involved)
Our family was soooo close to perfect, she needs to know that no matter what he is telling her. All of this could have been avoided had I known we were not meeting each others needs. We were so happy and then it caught up to us. You can only be in love for so long, at some point those unmet needs can destroy you.
I am prepping for Plan B, meet with Pro-Marriage attorney tomorrow. Asked very close, Christian friend to be IM...hope she agrees. I know part of the purpose if Plan B is to protect my feelings of love and I am ok on that front. I know this affair is an addiction, I don't hate him for it even though it is grossly physical. I am more disgusted than anything...
I think I will be on MB radio again Tuesday, let's see what the boss Dr. Harley says...

Oh! I think having your voice activated recorder at the confrontation would be a good idea. Documenting the exchange of words.
Have it in a pocket or someplace not noticable but able to collect dialog.

Ok, so I need to get the links for info on exposure to kids because some of my friends are skeptical too...I need to refresh my memory so I can explain it to them. Also, when he is going off about it I would like a calm, cool, concise response. I can't educate him, but I can tell the kids why they need to know....he is making me the bad guy for telling them and damaging "everyone." Frustrating. BTW, kids are 11, girl, and 7, boy.

Oh wow, he is soooo mad. Says he and I are over....I think he means it

Breathe.
He may leave and that isn't unusual.
Breathe.

You did the right thing not keeping his horrible secret. Don't say that to him. Just breathe.

Hopefully someone else can link you to Dr. Harley's page about exposure and telling children.
Children can handle the truth.

Melodylane has gathered a great post about telling the children.
HERE

Hang on there, RainRain, you are doing great!

So I changed my name on the Forum because he is furious. Took my laptop, journals, copies of the VAR evidence. Is there a way to change the name of my thread? Thanks.

uuuuuh no, I believe his adultery and his lies are destroying them. If you told them he had won a Nobel prize, would that destroy them? Of course not. His comment is irrational.

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

here



here

here

Don't try and reason with a falling down drunk, TS. Just tell him that adultery and lies hurt little children and since his affair hurts them they have a right to know the truth. Tell him that lying to children teaches them to be dishonest and you will not allow him to do that. Period. Too bad if he doesn't like it.

NOTHING YOU SAY CAN MAKE HIM LIKE IT SO DON'T EVEN TRY. You cannot reason with an addict. Don't waste your time.

Dr. Laura show [4:25 min into segment - 5-15-08]

Caller: Husband had an affair with good friend for 2 years. Her H ws one of his "buddies."

Dr. Laura: Do you have minor children?

Caller: Yes, we both do

Dr. Laura: They are willing to hurt your kids? Why are they willing to break up the families?

caller: Basically, they said they are not "happy."

Dr L: So that is the explanation for being willing to hurt their kids? They are doing this to be "happy?"

What can I do to possibly help you?

Caller: I need to know what to tell my kids.

Dr. Laura: THE TRUTH. They are breaking up 2 families because they have decided.....

See, I am not of the school where you stand by and do pretend with kids where this is all ok. Because this is NOT OK.

The most important story is that this is NOT OK. sit down with your husband and tell him you are going to explain to our children, in a factual, non hysterical way I am going to explain to the kids the horrible thing you are doing to destroy their family. That you are "not happy" is not sufficient reason to destroy 2 families and I am going to make this clear to them because I want them to grow up understanding this is WRONG.

That is my advice. And i think everybody should be clear this is selfish behavior that is WRONG, vows were made.

Not being "happy" is something you work to turnaround, not something you destroy a family over. If both of these people were to hear this was going to happen they will have second thoughts.

DO not think for a moment you are doing wrong by telling your children this. It is your moral obligation to teach them right from wrong. EVEN when it demonstrates a parent has done wrong. The parent cannot be whitewashed and get away with that - THAT IS WRONG and that does not teach the children

I really hope alot of people hear this. Alot of ppl want to whitewash what they are doing. Kids should know that is your attitude.

But to tell the custodial parent: hey don't make me look bad for my own selfish gain is ABSURD! and is EVIL! We are going to make wrong seem ok. Kids will lose any sense of right and wrong. Kids will be taught that anything is ok as long as it makes me "happy." Kids lose any sense of right or wrong. "well, it makes me happy to use drugs" when I am 12 It makes me "happy" to get on my knees and give 4 6th graders oral sex. That is what they teach their kids.

This is what happens when you whitewash wrongdoing to make no body feel bad which is why I get called MEAN. I get called mean because I say the truth. "Its MEAN to say something is right or wrong; its mean to make somebody feel bad!" Its MEAN to say the truth. People get shut down when they get called "judgmental" when they say the truth. The intent is to shut you down. Well, I don't shut up. Kids don't learn important truths when they allow others to shut them down. We don't help our children when we don't say the truth and support them in saying what is right and wrong.

Love it.....thanks so much!

I just heard the show. How are you doing? Do you need help with your Plan B?

Dr Harley told her that the reason her H is so furious about the exposure is because the affair is still on. Which we knew! Her H claimed that he slept with the OW "because" TS exposed his affair earlier. Dr H said that is probably a lie.

Dr Harley: "You have come to a point where Plan A is simply untenable."

and then the phone rang!!!

Phone rang here too MelodyLane and I re-listened to the rebroadcast.
Way to go TexasSun.
I heard the resolve in your voice to work through this the best way possible.

Ok. From now on Texassun (and big hugs to you from GA), please go and rent a safety deposit box to place ALL EVIDENCE in or directly pass it to your attorney.

My xwh actually broke into my home to steal evidence of his affair and a certain incident which happened. Your wh is desperate right now, knows that his fantasy life and his reality (you, the marriage and his children) have collided head on. He is behaving like an angry child now, but he is imho, reckless as to stealing your computer and evidence.

I would from this point forware do as I once did and walk around with the var in your pocket if there is any any at all contact with wh and especially do carry it when you and your wonderful friends confront skankyho. YOU need that evidence. You need to also get on tape that he indeed stole the evidence.

Anyhow, you have gotten some wonderful advice. And I agree that telling the children is a must. Tell them gently, but tell them the truth. My son knows the truth. 100%.

I also believe it is now time for plan B and a harder line approach on this man. His anger and acting out is something you should and the kids should no longer tolerate. I know it was gut wrenching hearing that verbal vomit on the var, but just know that it gave you the truth you were seeking and now you know how to defeat the affair monster.

In a wierd way, seeing your wh respond so sharply, recklessly, and angrily is good. Why? It means he is ashamed on some level of his actions and doesn't want the really ugly truth getting out there. So that's good. That means on some level he knows wrong and right.

He's acting as a wayward does when they're told to choose. And when the world finds out what he's been doing with ms. skankyho.

So far, you're doing beautifully in your MB plan. But now, I think, the direction points to you entering a dark dark plan B. It was smart of you to make that appt to go see the Christian family law attorney. I say get a temporary agreement set up, and have him served (sep agreement, NOT divorce) and put his things out on the front porch, with locks changed. Also, I'd have in that written that you are to have sole custody, and that there are to be no contact with the ow and the kids. Also, I'd have the finances clearly spelled out too, since affairs can get pricey, esp with a newly divorced skank ow on the prowl.

You go TexasSun! You're being an amazing woman and a stand-up mom to your kids! You can do it! We're all praying and rooting for you.

I listened to that and man, you are doing GREAT! You are so strong! Just right now do not react to the wayward and protect any evidence. Carry that var in your pocket at all times until he's out of the house. Also carry it to when you confront the ow.

He told TS to go into Plan B and send her WH a PBL letter. Find an intermediary.

TS, do you think your H found this forum?

Also, we can help you set up the visitation schedule. You don't need a counselor for that. IF your children agree to it, I would give him visitation every Wednesday night and either Saturday and Sunday afternoons for 4-5 hours. I would specify that he is to NEVER bring those kids around his adultery partner.

Do you have neutral party in mind for an IM? The IM has to agree to remain neutral and ONLY pass on pertinent information about the kids and finances IN HER OWN WORDS. If your H sends an email making threats or spewing fogbabble, that should NEVER get through. We can help your IM do this. Being an IM is the easiest job in the world if done right.

Thanks gals...them are fighting words Sooo crazy but he set up emergency MC session today. It went well, our individual counselors are husband and wife. WTF, he never had any interest before! Another session with kids counselor tomorrow. Omg, is the fog lifting? Gas lighting probably! Kinda late now as I get ready for plan B. I dont know if he found forum, but certainly website. I changed name to throw him off. Prepping for Plan B, but need to lay low and let my posts fall back a couple pages. Thank u for everything...see u in the dark!

Hi friends, it has been awhile! I was concerned my WH found the forum, but I have access to his laptop history and so far so good. So, quick update. I was prepping for Plan B, saw lawyer, IM, etc. However, in the meantime the OW ended it with him. My friends & community put enough social pressure, I never said a word, though the desire to confront her very publicly is sooo strong. He is pining away for her I'm sure.

At this point, my best bet is Plan A again. I can do it as I have a "male" mentality. I am frustrated, but he may file for divorce at the slightest provocation, he is so fogged up. In Oregon, he will get it No guarantees that they won't attempt to be together when all is said and done, however my childen are terrified of her and know she is the devil. Their life would be dismal and they both know it, the whole community is appalled and I have a big support system. He KNOWS they have no future, (mostly because of children, exposing to community etc.) but says that she is an addiction. Grrrr.

So, WH says he loves me, and I feel if we can make it through withdrawal there is hope. However, I have very little trust and he won't put EP's in place because he is not willing to work on our marriage. (yet) If there is contact again, Plan B. *Sigh* I hate relying on OW to stay away, and he has swore to the children he won't be contacting her "for now"...but it's a chance I have to take.

Sooo, any suggestions for building the Love Bank while WH is in withdrawal? He spends all of his free time with us so I have ample opportunity, but not a whole lot of ideas. Nothing worked the last few months, probably because he was so engrossed in the affair.

Was wondering how you were doing, Texas!



Excellent!!!


Will your H spend one on one time with you? Is there any chance you two can get away together for a few days?

I would love one on one, we STILL have such a great time together. However, he won't be on board with it yet. As soon as he indicates he wants to work on marriage, I am going to instill EP's and purchase MB Online program. Those are my conditions and I won't negotiate. Hard to do the POJA when he has such a bad taste in his mouth from MB exposure!

We are months away though from beginning recovery, he is sooo grouchy and mad about PA exposure at end of April. Annnd, that's assuming no contact is maintained. Also, anyone that asks, I tell them the affair is going strong because until EP's in place, it may as well be! Obviously if he doesn't want to work on marriage, the affair is still foremost in his mind. Damn.

So you have tried asking him to do things with you and he says no? Hmmm this makes me worry about continued contact...

If you are pretty confident there is NC, keep trying to get him to spend some time with you...

Our MC recommended we go to a bar and sit side by side (less pressure) and just talk. I tried to open conversation to things I knew he enjoyed (like his work) and this worked out well for us. We also did some other things like purchased "The Office" seasons on DVD and began watching them together. It isn't technically UA time but it gave us a chance to relax and laugh together and also gave us something to talk about...

I haven't attempted the one on one time.....he is sooo grumpy. Withdrawal most likely. I just cannot get in the Plan A frame of mind again. I am polite, but knowing he is "in love" (according to the recording) with someone else is hard to swallow.

{{{texas}}} Ugs, withdrawal...

How many weeks has it been since the last contact?

Only May 19th, by text. Very early into the NC if at all. The only reason he is doing it is he promised our kids, and she is the one who broke it off. (i think...info via snooping)

OK, was worried that there was recent contact you may not know about, but this sounds very normal for only one week of NC.

Someone posted some great conversation tips during Plan A and I used it throughout w/d as well...it worked great for me. My sister said it also helped her. If you need some help in this area, lmk and I'll go find it for you.

Hang in there, it'll get better

K, any help is much appreciated! I am just down this week, the kids have had a rough time. In some ways it has made him see how destructive the affair is. But, it is impossible to be the attentive wife when they are struggling...I can barely look at him!

TS,

Glad you're doing well, but seriously, have VAR's in his car and everywhere again.

You have to carry one with you. I am still ? if there is contact. Even if the ow breaks up with him. You see that part might be part of HER playbook. In my sitch with my xwh, the ow broke up with him when she saw she could never be the nice guy/gal. But it was an ultimatum to make him decide to leave or not.

Don't think they don't do that b/c ow do! Anyhow, please be proactive and start getting recon again b/c I don't somehow buy that they aren't in contact. Esp if he isn't wanting to do things w/you. Something just is well, fishy right now.

Protect yourself. Hide the var somewhere in his vehicle LESS conspicuous like maybe the seat.

That is because you should be in PLAN B. You should not be in Plan A for one more day. Plan A is only supposed to last 3 to 4 weeks for women. I would send him a Plan B letter telling him not to contact you until he is ready to commit to the marriage. I seriously doubt the affair is over, though. He probably went further underground.

Ok, I will get another VAR. He found and destroyed the first one. I was wondering if that was her motivation. On one hand, she KNOWS my children will never accept her.
She has caused such emotional harm and destruction in our family. Is there a legal way to prove that, has anyone tried to sue on behalf of minor children for emotional damages? I want to make sure she can NEVER be around them. That might help speed up his decision
The first week of NC he asked if I would go to MC. However, he got stuck at work and missed appt. After that, I wrote him a letter saying MC is useless until he can PROVE there is NC whatsoever. So idk if I shot myself in the foot there. I would rather go the MB Online program route, but counseling may help initially.

Melodylane, I know that in SAA, John was in Plan A for the entire time, like a year and a half. Initially, Dr. Harley recommended I stay in Plan A thru August. When I found out about resumed contact, he said Plan B. However, before I went into Plan B I re-exposed the physical affair and then OW "broke up" with him....let me call the show on Tuesday and see what he says. We are only like less than 2 weeks into NC. (hopefully)

John in SAA is a MAN, not a woman. Plan A is only supposed to last 3 to 4 weeks FOR WOMEN and Dr Harley already told you to go into Plan B.

Why do you need to call Dr Harley AGAIN and ask him? He has already told you to go into Plan B. And as far as the affair breaking up, I doubt that. He would likely be back if that were true.

The point is that he has not committed to recovering the marriage and until that happens, there is no point in staying in Plan A. It is not supposed to be a way of life. Staying in Plan A too long is actually harmful to your chances of recovery.

Oh dear, Texas. I didn't know he wasn't back and I didn't know that you weren't monitoring him.

Even if, say, he moved back home, you would still need to be looking at Plan B if he isn't willing to do what Dr Harley says is required for R ~ 1) agree to NC for life, 2) EPs & transparency and 3) agree to a plan to rebuild your M. Sure, there is some wiggle room if you are verifying NC and he is withdrawing but this doesn't sound like the case here.

You can't just keep Plan A'ing him indefinitely. Agreed that you have been in Plan A too long. It will destroy your LB$ and it can cause health problems. Dr Harley talks a lot about damaging your immune system, maybe even in just Friday's show....

Look I did things long ago with plan A when they said to do a longer plan A not like now. It hurt my health! It did.

Please please go to plan B. This guy is NOT OUT OF THE EMA. Not at all. He has taken and destroyed evidence against him because he is GUILTY and he is continuing doing that very thing.

You have to be good to yourself. You cannot keep doing this, and the wild, out of control wh has to be reigned in. Plan B. ANOTHER huge exposure maybe, and if it were me (knowing what I know now about a stubborn, vile wayward H can be like) I'd drag his butt into court so quick to get a temp hearing and drag the SKANKHO in there too making her take the stand and thoroughly put her through the ringer having her spill every scary and skanky detail to hundreds of strangers and to the judge. It makes them (the OP) feel like THE CRIMINALS THEY ARE.

Ok, Plan B it is....I needed that xtra push. If I hire my attorney it is a 5k retainer or 10k if I plan on going to court. Spendy. I can borrow the money from my Dad and ask for WH to pay my legal expenses? I am a SAHM. So basically ask for sole custody and legal separation? My lawyer said this make it much easier for him to get a divorce if I initiate it. Can u do Plan B without legal separation? Also, any sample letters? Thanks.

Do you think you two can come to an agreement about visitation and $$ without a lawyer?

TS, you can send him a plan B letter and in it, just tell him you expect him to continue paying the bills as before. Attach a visitation schedule and tell him if he wants more or less to just contact your intermediary. Find an IM who will be neutral. The letter to use is the one in Surviving an Affair. Read this: How to Plan B correctly

If he doesn't continue to support you, then you will want to file for divorce to get legal protection. And it is better to file for divorce because if he doesn't come around within 2 years, you can just finalize the divorce and move on.

PLEASE go to plan B.

An update...Husband and I have been peacefully co-existing, moved home mid-July, a lot of SF (one of my top EN, he refused while he was with OW), family vacations, etc. NOT in recovery, yet.

I did a lengthy, very extended Plan A, (here come the 2x4's!) but I truly have a male mentality. Contact has stopped with OW. He ended affair after multiple exposures and I sent her a notarized, certified letter that stated any contact with my children will result in a civil suit (intentional and negligent emotional damage) as well as a restraining order. I can post this if needed. He has her blocked on cell etc., and I have been using VAR. So far so good.

Now....the hard part. HUGE AO's from me the last 2 days...where did this come from? The looong Plan A took it's toll. So today I gave him this list, we have been waiting until he composed his own list. Remember I had a 5 month EA via text, skype, FB just prior to his affair. Here is my list I require of him:

Relationship Needs List
� End all contact with affair FOR LIFE
-Block all avenues of communication
-Account for your time & whereabouts
-No mutual friends or contact with mutual friends
-Complete transparency with cell phone, passwords, bank accounts, FB etc.
-Total honesty to eliminate conditions that led to affair
-Compose no contact for life letter signed by our family (100% necessary)
-Take extraordinary precautions to prevent this and future affairs
-Remove all affair paraphenelia including ipod, music, truck etc. etc. etc.

THEN��
� STD test now and in future as recommended by Doctor/Health Dept.
� Doctor visit with depression screening, and health evaluation
� Move back into marital bed whether we like it or not � Accountability with family and friends
� Read �Surviving an Affair� together and discuss it
� Get-away without children to plan marriage recovery, next steps etc.
� No opposite sex texting and friendships
� FAMILY counseling that is Christian-based, weekly
� Attend church regularly as a family
� Individual and couples counseling as needed
� Limit alcohol, bars, partying. Spouse present in all these scenarios.
� Commitment to a PROGRAM of marriage recovery
-comprehensive and long-term (1+years)
-restores love and respect
-builds communication skills
-resolves conflicts and helps solve problems
-teaches us to meet each others� most important needs
-covers ALL aspects of relationship and builds a strong foundation for the future.
� Post-nuptial agreement to protect children. Affair equals loss of custody
� Support in transition to go back to school, not in real estate
� Actively and vigorously pursue relocation to a warmer climate
� I am willing to do all of the above as well if I haven�t done so already

Um...I'm not sure what you're looking for, TexasSun. So are you saying things are going okay for you? Do you have questions? Concerns?

Fyi...I am not interested in being a real estate agent anymore because I know they met in a property I had listed. I reported his conduct to MLS and my Principal Broker. I will continue to help with our foreclosure business. (one of his needs is I contribute more $! I think that is valid now that both kids will be in school, but being a SAHM was the best thing I ever did! Also, I refuse to "work" until our marriage is well into recovery...it will affect spousal support if he can't agree to my terms.)

The AO's are because you feel secure enough that WH has manitained NC with the OW.

You now feel safe enough to show your WH your anger and hurt.

Normal.

Ok, thanks so much. I feel like things are going well, but now I am a crazy lady with AO's! I was calm as a cucumber (most of the time) but now I am LB'ing like crazy (2 huge fights 2 days in a row, accusations by me etc.) I am going to destroy any chance of recovery if I keep it up! Also, I am frustrated by his list to me...all about apologizing to friends and family that I have stood up to in the past (Major infidelity, poor parenting, rudeness, etc) He wants me to roll over, fine I can do that if that is some sort of EN, but I just dont think it's going to fix our marriage lol. Seems like he couldn't come up with much else. Sidenote...his family threw me in the trash during his affair, did not lift a finger to help me. They all live in our neighborhood and did not even call, meanwhile our friends and other neighbors rallied around me. They are sooo cold!

Hi texassun, I would strongly suggest you stop messing around and start seriously using this program before it is too late. But I first want to applaud you for busting up the affair!!! You go, girl!!

Get your marriage affair proofed and DIVE into the MB program now. The best thing you can do is a) stop love busting and b) start spending 20 hours per week meeting the top 4 intimate ENs of conversation, affection, sex, rec companionship. Sit down and schedule that today and start doing it.

Do you have the book SAA? If not, get that book and also get the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love and start doing this program. You can't afford to wait on that.

This has nothing to do with recovering your marriage. It is NOT an "EN" to force you to apologize to someone, that is a SELFISH DEMAND. TS, this program is not about trading lists of selfish demands. The only thing you are in a position to demand is an end to his affair and measures to affair proof your marriage. Please familiarize yourself with the program.

Thank you Melody Lane, my goal is to enroll in the MB online program. Unfortunately he thinks MB is too much, he dislikes it because of the exposure aspect. I have most of the books, HNHN (on ipod too) SAA, Love Buster, HNHN for parents, 5 steps to Romantic Love. The Harley video too. I have read them all...currently SAA is in his underwear drawer, but he hasn't read it. That is why that is on my list. I am hoping if he reads it with me and that will open the door to the online program. I have asked him to fill out a EN questionairre in the past, but not recently. (obviously it did no good to ask anything during his affair.) He IS selfish and entitled. I don't think anything on my list is a selfish demand? I just want to cover all the bases. Also, he will not discuss our lists initially without a 3rd party present, another of his requirements. A referee (another couple) to say what is reasonable on our lists etc. I feel they will think my terms are harsh but necessary. As for the AO's...I think it happened to coincide with my monthly cycle, I am typically more emotional for a couple days and combined with the anger I felt it was crazy roller coaster. Today should be better.

Please believe me there is nothing I want more than to begin the program. He will not lift a finger to work on the marriage until these lists are addressed. He has only ended the affair, moved home, spent a lot of family time and 2 vacations. Will not do one on one time except for a lot of SF, which I am thrilled about. When I wrote my list...a program of marriage recovery it is MB I am referring to. The counseling as needed would be him with Steve, but I don't if he will agree to any of it. I can't do it by myself....

He is not in a position to negotiate the recovery of the marriage.
I know you love having him home and having the affair over but you do not have to settle for this.
You call Steve and see what he says for you to do.

Even email the radio show for direction.

It can not be the same ole, same ole marriage and your wayward H thinks it will be and that opens the door to more of either the same affair or a new one. In other words......misery.

Melody Lane, or anyone, can you please, please go over my list (page 15 titled Relationship Needs) and tell me what to eliminate before this meeting? Is attending church as a family a selfish demand? I don't really know. I know I won't waver on the first part. Help!

Hi, TS,

Since you have called out for anyone to help you, I will say my 2 cents, but I am not one of the vets. Still, here goes:

The first part of your list is the very basic of what Harley advises for recovery of marriage to begin:

1.) No contact for LIFE with adultery partner. This would include cutting off all possible means and the No Contact letter signed by him and mailed by you. It needs to be handwritten by your H, so the AP knows it is coming from him voluntarily. There are examples of NC letters on this forum. They do not included apologies of any sort to the AP.

I would definitely insist on no contact with any friends of the adultery for they are not friends to the marriage.

2.) Total transparency. This would mean accounting for all time and money spent, shared passwords on everything.

3.) Restoration of romantic love: This is the part where the FWS agrees to improving the marriage to a better place than pre-A. This is where the FWS does some of the heavy lifting. (AKA Just Compensation)

4.) Create a list of Extraordinary Precautions that will apply to both of you. You had some of this listed in the 2nd list. There are lists of EPs also on this forum. Here is our list:

Eliminate all social networking sites, except for shared FB account

No communicating with a female in any other way than the necessary professional manner needed for work

No intimate conversations with a female (no conversations about anything personal, such as likes, dislikes, marriage, music, etc)

No flirting, no inappropriate conversations or jesting. No �boobs or butts� comments ever.

No porn, no �adult� clubs or shops, no chat rooms

No nights apart. I will find a way to include spouse.

No recreational activities with the opposite sex.

No interactive online games.

No business mentoring with a woman

I suggest putting away the rest of your list until after the fog completely goes away. It may be seen as quite overwhelming at the moment. Start with the very basics by first eliminating the adultery, then eliminating the possibility of recurrence. Start rebuilding an even better marriage. The rest can be added.

Oh, and yes on the STD testing. Even if he won't go, you should still go.

Do you think your H is depressed? That would need to be addressed before recovery of the marriage could begin. Once the depression is alleviated, he will be in a better mindset.

Thank u so much Reading, I needed to hear that! It's wonderful he's home, its awesome we are having SF, but it doesn't fix anything! I feel like he would coast along indefinitely, say that he "tried" to work on marriage and then say it didn't work, at that point all our friends and family would probably have to agree with him. He would probably return to OW. I will call radio show (again ha ha) I want to demand we begin MB, but he will be too stubborn.

You'll probably be advised to go to plan B then.....yk?

Enjoy your SF meanwhile!

Thank yu soooo much, I would love to incorporate the other suggestions you made at a later time, he will think it too controlling, but it will be necessary in the future. He received my list on Friday, waiting for our mutual friends to return from a trip to mediate our "lists" He will not begin any other way. He was fine coasting along too, but I told him it was time to make changes.

Yes, I do think seasonal depression is a factor, we live in the NW. I included a doctor visit on my list, he needs a proffesional evaluation. Thanks for your insights!

And one last thing from my side of the world:

Coasting will not work. After my H's first affair, we did the coasting, too. Our marriage was "fine," but it was not protected. Several years later, H became involved with Internet porn and inappropriate chat rooms/emails with other women on the net. Again, we sort of recovered and our marriage was "fine" but again not protected. Then we had this long deployment and adultery.

I insisted that I would NEVER go through this again. NEVER. Now our marriage is protected. My H was GLAD to comply with this list, because he knows there is no room at all ever for error. Non-negotiable. This is for my protection. If he had not agreed to it, I could no longer live with him, because I would be at risk.

TS, you should be in Plan B if he won't commit to recovery. He is in no position to bargain.. Give him your list of extraordinary precautions and tell him you will consider forgiving him if he commits to recovery and to your list of EPs. From the sounds of, he is just using your home as a flop house with free sex and is not interested in doing what it takes to recover your marriage. You need to raise the bar, my friend.

Also, dr Harley has said unless a WH comes back on bended knee with hat in hand and willing to do whatever it takes, that you are wasting your time. And that is what you are doing, wasting your time. He either gets on board or he should be shown the door.

Amen, amen.

Can I assume the same applies to a WW?

Ok wow, I will let you know if he agrees to all my terms. I didn't know there had to be so much remorse from the BS. The only unusual thing in our sitch is my previous EA, he is sooo angry.

No, you cannot make that assumption.

Oh no, it does not apply to a WW.

He is probably using your EA as a lightening rod for his own. As long as he continues to focus on your affair, he doesnt have to focus on his. You should not let him do that. Set the conditions, agree to EPs yourself, but keep in mind that your EPs are not negotiable. Give him time to get on board, about 30 minutes. If he won't, then pack him up and show him the door. I seriously doubt he will agree, though, because he is not serious in the least. He is playing games with you.

You keep referring to your previous EA.

Is there something specific that you did that brings you back to this condition?

Then what is the MB expectation from a WW?........and why the difference?......is it just gender differences?

Have you ever read sexymamabear's thread? Her husband came home for a couple months but they did not really enter recovery, she didn't see any remorse........ that's what I am sensing here. He ended up moving out again for some months before finally hitting rock bottom and then they actually got to recovery.

What I am sensing is that you have prevented rock bottom, he is still entitled, I know you don't want to but you need Plan B.

Thank you Mehr, I will reread the thread. I guess the level of remorse I want is BEGGING, but I am not seeing that. (is this a selfish demand by me?) I have seen tears, I'm sorry etc, but nothing dramatic. Tonight we have a sitter and we can talk through the list. If he can't be on board with the top portion (EP's) I will have to go to plan B. How are u doing? Congrats on school!

I'm not sure if I read SMB's thread.....is there a link to it?
Since full exposure my WW has just gotten more angry by the day!.....blames me for EVERYTHING. I see no remorse other than a brief "I was wrong" from a recent text message.
Looks like I have to let her hit BOTTOM.
Just like so many other stories here.....it's just tragic and sad.
I Love her like no other.......but maybe Plan B is needed.
Maybe it's time.

Hi, yes, broke contact with OM in April when I got a new phone and hadn't taken EP's to block his number. It was a brief text. My husband is constantly triggered by my affair because OM is famous in our sport and profession. My kids got his autograph the one and only time I ever saw him. (before the EA began) He lives on separate coast, so chances of seeing him are nil if I use EP's. I

To clarify, husband is very willing to go to MC. He doesn't know the failure rate of MC. Is there any statistic I can show him? I know the MB plan works, but idk if he will agree to it. Any other plan he would accept, just prob. not MB in particular because of the exposure aspect. I will find out tonight I guess.

I am curious what the answer is as well. My husband has always been the more sensitive one etc. in our relationship. He couldn't even give me a hug during his affair, he was soo attached to OW. I guess a one woman (at a time!) guy. Grrrr

So I forgot to mention we are moving full steam ahead with our move out of state (it was put on hold during his affair, tho he continued to work part time for franchise) that in itself is HUGE. I don't know if he will ever be the type to come to me on bended knee, too much pride and anger because I strayed 1st. Tonight when we go over our lists, EP's; what are the 3 most concise reasons for the No Contact letter? I absolutely require it, but I don't want to get tongue tied when I explain it. Thanks.

Yes, a wayward man and a wayward woman react and recover very differently from an affair.

The reason is that you require it. IT is on your list of EPs and is not negotiable. That is besides the OBVIOUS reason for a NC letter, which I am sure you are fully able to explain. You don't have to EXPLAIN or justify your EPs.

Sweet...that works. No explanation needed. So I guess to be fair, he wants to recover, (just not a very contrite person) that is why he came up with this idea to write lists of what we need from the relationship. He wants me to mend fences with his (crappy) family, no FB, twitter, limit texting, own my actions/words (i am aggressive), counseling, etc. I want to recover the MB way. Hopefully if he agrees to read SAA which is on my list, he will see it isn't crazy internet hocus-pocus

PBL list has been discussed, clarified, explained (I gave him 2 samples of a no contact letter etc.) We met with a third party (friends) for accountability when we reviewed the list. Most of it is non negotiable and he is aware of that. So far so good, many are done or in process. It's been a long week, I am drained! I wish he would get it all done FAST but work, kids, summer sports etc. Hopefully this won't drag on and on....

Recovery is going ok, I am trying to not LB, just ordered 5 steps to Romantic Love workbook. One of our biggest problems though is his family....they threw me under the bus during his affair. (They have very bad family values IMO) I have absolutely the worst relationship with them now and it is a huge LB for my husband, he is close to them. His dad is in a 15 yr relationship, not married, and has secret affairs. I have 0 patience and no respect for him. Ugh. Can't I put them all on the backburner and focus on US? I don't have the energy to fight 2 battles!

So with personal boundaries established, all avenues of contact blocked, NC letter, new phone #, move out of state in near future etc. ec. Is it fair for my (formerly wandering) husband to insist on repairing relationship with his jerky family? He wants to smooth it all out before we move, but I am beyond hurt. It's strange I can forgive HIM, but not his family?! Also, I am curious about details of the affair now, which he willingly gives me. Does this do more harm than good? Specifically I want to now how many time he slept with her..is that nuts?

Sooo, been awhile. Forgot to mention that after the awesome NC letter was sent, I found it back in my mailbox unopened, return to sender! I gave her ex husband the letter to pass on, it was opened, and I am sure he couldn't help but read it. No guarantees she received it though. It has been bugging me but I don't want to jeopardize our recovery by e-mailing the letter etc. Thoughts? How can I have insurance she received and read it?! She will not sign for certified letter now....

Annnd there was an OW #2 (one night stand with ex-girlfriend, followed by a month of text/phone!) during the SAME time frame as OW #1!!! Nice huh? I was actually kinda relieved to find that out, apparently OW#1 wasn't his "soulmate" So will do exposure to OW #2 husband even though it has been over for several months. My husband has new numbers, no FB, transparent w/passwords, texts etc etc. Tracking on phone and keylogger too. He is happy to do all this now that EVERYTHING is on the table. So I found out about OW#2 through the phone bill, which he gave me passwords etc. SOOOO, NC letter as well to OW #2 (who I think did me a huge favor and killed the fantasy of OW#1) My crazy life!

Umm, Omg, police came today. Apparently "no contact" letter is harrasment. She returned it to sender, I gave it to her ex-husband to pass on. This repeated attempt is a misdemeanor because at some point she has texted me to say to never contact her. Grrrr. It is that easy to be charged w/harrasment! Nothing came of it thank goodness and they suggested attorney must compose and mail NC letter.

Ouch. I guess you can be charged with anything. Doubt it would hold up in court though. Look at it this way... You're mucking the stalls and soon they will be clean!

CV

Yay...happy to muck away but cannot believe the nerve of OW. By not accepting the NC letter, will it ever be over in her mind???? Should I insist we spend the $ and have attorney draft and send one so I KNOW she gets it. This is perfectly legal and a bonus...if she ever contacts either of us after the letter we can go after her for harrasment!!! My husband feels the counselor should make the decision because he did what he could writing the first letter....My bar is set so high that I really need him to jump thru this hoop tho!

K, help. Do we need to have an attorney draft and mail a NC letter. She rejected the first two deliveries, called cops for harrasment. Waste of $? Will she HAVE TO sign for it? I think yes, but thoughts? Also, husband is still not on board with MB, will try anything but this program. Thoughts on Dave Carder? Frustrated.....

I am very concerned your H will try anything but this program. It is really not negotiable at this point. You are facing a false recovery between his lack of enthusiasm to seriously get over her and fix your marriage.
Get MB help from the radio show (free advice from the source but brief) or by contacting the coaching center (money but well worth it to clarify what you need to do next).

Thanks Reading, I agere we are on road to FR. He still feels burned by the "exposure" and thinks it is too cult-like here. He says "anything but MB." Sooo, he is over her, I don't know if she is though thats why I am so hell bent on her receiving NC letter. I will call radio show...thank you.

OMG...received a phone call from OW #2 husband...she has herpes. Has had them for at least 15 years. Unprotected sex, ONS in July!!! I will seriously blow a head gasket if I test positive. My husband knew, thought we were ok because I tested fine after OW#1. The only blessing...maybe OW #1 got them? Ugh, devastated, how could he hide this????

TS,

From dictionary.com:

Cult: a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

In the truest sense, we are cultus of people who share similar experiences and adhere to the same ideals (in marriage). This is not a bad thing. It's not bad, because it works. Tell him it's an excuse and he needs to get on board or else.

CV

TS,

Don't panic until you are sure. In the meantime, both of you get tested and use protection.

CV

Spent an uncomfortable Halloween evening with "friends" of the OW (on Facebook they are "friends" and one is her employer, though they would terminate her if possible. In addition, they are friendly to her in social situations.) This KILLS me. Am I justified in terminating these false friends, aka just "grow apart" etc. I don't want friends without a backbone anyway, right? Also, STD test tomorrow so I am extra sad.

So basically...I have a confession. A ONS in July of 2010. There, it's out. Confessed to our counselor today and close friend. Will tell hubby asap. He has suspected it (picked me up at 5am at strangers house) I denied sex but admitted other contact. I guess I just can't keep expecting him to be O & H when I am not. I am terrified he will leave, we are early into recovery from his affair. But he is justified in doing so. All precautions have been taken and no contact with this OM since July 2010. Stupid me, I was falling down drunk at a club. Have not had a drink since January 2011.(Not an alcoholic but I have poor boundaries around men when I drink) Okay, so now what.

TS,

Just read your entire thread......what a mess. Are you sure you were happy in 2010?

I'm no Vet, but I'm guessing the 2x4's are coming from them soon. Your recovery is back to day 1 from my perspective. I know if my WW, waited months to come clean ( after having me go thru he!! ) I would be more than mad......

Good luck. Was the STD test neg?

OM1 and OM2 are reversed......

TS, By happy in 2010, I guess I was a cake-eater; going out dancing at night (totally out of character for me, OW #1 was my influence), playing mommy during the day and a great (though not perfect) husband at home. I will fix the men, hard to keep track ha ha. Sad

I enjoyed the attention when we went out and got super drunk and ended up at a college guys house, we had sex one night in July 2010. My husband suspects and has asked, I always deny. No contact after that with OM#1.

Shortly after I met the real threat to our marriage...my long-term EA with a celebrity in our sports field. In January my husband began his long-term PA with OW#1. I confessed about my EA, but not the ONS. I was fearful he would never come home because he was so entrenched. I didn't want to add fuel to the fire.

Sooo, I mailed no-contact letter to OM#2, no idea how to find OM#1 (college kid), I no longer drink, no opposite sex friendships or texting, no FB, I do not have nights out without my husband. So extraordinary precautions for both of us. All along I buried it, but I can't anymore.

We are at square one anyway. Husband won't do MB (he says he is scarred from exposure), we are doing Torn Asunder by Dave Carder. Good program, encouraged me to expose ONS. We have a great marriage counselor and individual therapy. Results from my STD test are on the 15th. I was clean in July when husband came home, but that was shortly after his ONS with OW#2, too soon to tell.

Sooo, I guess I need to prepare for his departure, I have lied for more than a year. Do I tell him in counseling? On my own?

CV, I know the biggest obstacle is the lying. I am a hypocrite. He has lied as well, many lies of ommission too. But, he has asked to my face if I slept with him and I denied it, said we fooled around. Who should we expose this ONS too? His family are not part of our support system, enabled his affair. I assume our friends, my family, kids?

I guess I need to prepare for his departure, I have lied for more than a year. Do I tell him in counseling? On my own?.

I would present in counseling for the purpose keeping him calm. He may walk out, but if you tell him on your own, he is more likely to walk out. Once out, you are back to square 1. He will need time to process. You are not a foggy wayward, but he will be a newly BS. I'm sorry is not going to cut it.

Good Luck....

Also, I stopped posting in May because I didn't want to go into Plan B. I was scared. That was a huge mistake because his affair was only suspended for a couple days and then June was full force ahead. Perhaps the most intense and difficult month culminating in the kids finding her dirty underwear and a love letter in his truck. He was gone more frequently and I used up what little energy I had trying to figure out what he was doing. Plan B would have saved me a lot of drama.

He came home much too soon, but didn't have the self control to stop seeing her and his dads house allowed it. At home I had rules and he was happy to be on the right track. Our first couple months were hard, he was in withdrawal. There never seemed a good time or a stable enough time to reveal my ONS. We r in counseling and following a program and its time to reveal my ONS.

Honesty is the best policy. However, your H is likely going to be VERY angry, not just over your infidelity, but your subsequent choice to lie to him when he suspected something was up. Be prepared - he may just choose to leave again.

Who is your support system? That is who you should expose to. You really need to tell your H ASAP. No need to tell in from of the counselor unless your are afraid for your physical safety.

I am concerned he will leave too. I don't think the counselor would be able to stop that.

Make sure you have a list of EPs for yourself as well. Time to put the taker away and let the giver have a go here for a while.

CV

oops. you forgot to mention your own infidelity that got this whole thing rolling.

your husband has a right to be furious with you.

you got the whole town aligned with you with no accountability for your own transgression?

his family isn't nice to you and supportive of the relationship? why would they be? they probably feel like you're making his life a misery and you are when you lie to his face and GASLIGHT him.

very sad situation here for your children.

you two should have picked up and left as soon as he started slipping into this. you should have confessed immediately. you've got major problems now that could have been minimized with honesty and no contact...a fresh start.

but the thing is, you couldn't handle losing control. you wanted to control this thing by making it about his mistakes when it was your original infidelity that caused the major rifts in the relationship.

you wanted control and you got off on seeing the OW around town and having everyone on your side.

now you're on the verge of totally losing control. it must be terrifying.

Not terrifying at all. A huge relief! I have had A LOT of accountability, I exposed my EA to everyone, via FB and face to face That was the main threat to my marriage..the OM that I stupidly thought was my future. Sorry, its a relief to tell him the truth about that night and he said he already knew. Gave me a hug and thanked me for telling him. We are exposing to our support systems soon. It was a stupid drunken one night stand and the lying is the issue. No contact has been in place for more than a year with the ONS. EP's in place. Working on Honesty. The OW #1 in his case even knew about my ONS

OK TS,

Is everything out in the open now? No more secrets?

Is he still willing to work on your M?

If so, explain to him that MB was the reason you came clean. Ask him to work it *with* you. He might surprise you again and tell you yes...

Yes CV...its out thanks be to God. Nothing left to hide, its all out on table. He Absolutely wants to work on marriage. He has some unrealistic expectations to "expose" to his family (they are not supportive of our marriage, enabled his affair) I feel we need to confide in our support systems, my family, friends, counselors etc I understand he has some selfish demands and that is ok, he received horrible news today. Hopefully in a day or two we can iron out the details.

I have exposed my ONS to several friends, individual counselor, marriage counselor, my brother. Will continue to make the calls and apologize for the lies I told. So...that is all for now. All the credit to MB, I have 5 steps to romantic love workbook. Maybe when we finish the Carder program he will be willing. Doing a lot of the concepts of MB anyway, especially the UA.

Good on ya. Now you can REALLY start recovering.

Husband willing to look at MB materials!!! I told him I was honest with him about ONS mostly due to MB! (he has been completely against it due to exposure and the fact that I know "too much" already) I have SAA, LB's, HNHN, 5steps workbook, basic concepts video. I also have HNHN on IPod. My question since he doesn't like to read....should we start with the 30 minute YouTube on infidelity? I want to ease him into it and don't want to overwhelm him. MIM, I was prepared for him to leave but he said he is fully committed, knew all along, and its the lying that will be hard to overcome. I have followed through with his request to reveal my ONS to all support systems and his family who are not the greatest.

Start with the video. Spend time talking about it.

One of the things you can incorporate into your UA time is reading. Read SAA to him. A little at a time and spend time talking about it.

cv

Husband willing to look at MB materials!!! I told him I was honest with him about ONS mostly due to MB! (he has been completely against it due to exposure and the fact that I know "too much" already) I have SAA, LB's, HNHN, 5steps workbook, basic concepts video. I also have HNHN on IPod. My question since he doesn't like to read....should we start with the 30 minute YouTube on infidelity? I want to ease him into it and don't want to overwhelm him. MIM, I was prepared for him to leave but he said he is fully committed, knew all along, and its the lying that will be hard to overcome. I have followed through with his request to reveal my ONS to all support systems and his family who are not the greatest.

TS,

Excellent news!!! If you are suggesting the 30 min. Harley video I see no reason why not.

If he is not a reader, maybe you two could read together.....I'm not sure if all the books are on CD, but there are a few. Start slowly. Use this site for him to get questionnaire and surveries. Put together EP's and schedule UA time.

Stay positive..... You have made progress!!!

Texas, Here are the EP's we put in place in August, all have been done except post-nup and he will not read the books, although we have listened to HNHN on ipod, watched the videos and doing a diff. program called "Torn Asunder", switching to MB cause we hav been listening to MB Radio Show together and he is in...woohoo!

EP's (for both of us)
� End all contact with affair FOR LIFE
-Block all avenues of communication
-Account for your time & whereabouts
-No mutual friends or contact with mutual friends
-Complete transparency with cell phone, passwords, bank accounts, FB etc.
-Total honesty to eliminate conditions that led to affair
-Compose no contact for life letter signed by our family (100% necessary)
-Take extraordinary precautions to prevent this and future affairs
-Remove all affair paraphenelia including ipod, music, truck etc. etc. etc.

THEN��
� STD test now and in future as recommended by Doctor/Health Dept.
� Doctor visit with depression screening, and health evaluation
� Move back into marital bed whether we like it or not � Accountability with family and friends
� Read �Surviving an Affair� together and discuss it
� Get-away without children to plan marriage recovery, next steps etc.
� No opposite sex texting and friendships
� FAMILY counseling that is Christian-based, weekly
� Attend church regularly as a family
� Individual and couples counseling as needed
� Limit alcohol, bars, partying. Spouse present in all these scenarios.
� Commitment to a PROGRAM of marriage recovery
-comprehensive and long-term (1+years)
-restores love and respect
-builds communication skills
-resolves conflicts and helps solve problems
-teaches us to meet each others� most important needs
-covers ALL aspects of relationship and builds a strong foundation for the future.
� Post-nuptial agreement to protect children. Affair equals loss of custody
� Support in transition to go back to school, not in real estate
� Actively and vigorously pursue relocation to a warmer climate
� I am willing to do all of the above as well if I haven�t done so already


Basically, we BOTH had to do all of this. 4, yes 4!!! NO-CONTACT letters written, to each affair partner. In addition, we had a crazy OW so our attorney wrote a cease and desist letter. VERY EFFECTIVE. Just renewed our vows at a Weekend to Remember conference by Family Life. Spending a fortune on counseling, hoping to taper off when MB program is in full-swing. I cannot believe how much more secure and hopeful we both feel now. One affair is tough, 4 was a nightmare!

Texans.

Imagine that?

!

or maybe a ruse to throw off crazy OW

Yeeeee-Hawww!

<~~~ Texas 2 step

Keep up the GREAT work!

. Actually if you read my thread, i added an addendum to the standard exposure letter and exposed my own long-term EA (OM lived across the country) however, unbeknownst to me my husband was already in a PA. I wasted valuable time exposing his EA that had already gone physical.

I'm very happy for you and Mr TS!

My H had two OW's (at the same time, what was he thinking?!?) and I had one OM (what was I thinking?!?). It's very hard to deal with. Thinking of both women and then I compounded with my own A and getting over withdrawal. Atleast I've learnt to divert my thoughts when it happens and it doesn't hurt as much.

I've read **edit** and emailed **edit** and he referred my H (and I) to a sex addiction psychologist in Minnesota. We've also attended **edit** a few years ago and shredded the marriage renewal certificate when I found out about his A's. And several more marriage intensives/workshops/counselors.

But IMO MB is the best one when it comes to infidelity and recovery and has a great plan if both follows it. We have all the books/audiobooks from MB. My H hates reading too that's why I bought the CD's instead and we have the basic concepts DVD. He doesn't like talking or working on recovery because it reminds him of what he has done and it drags him down and he gets depressed. I'm the opposite, I love LOVE diving into it. It's very hard when he is not pulling he weight though. We've been coaching with Jennifer since January and my H just recently signed us up for the MB online program. He needed to do it because I was not going to take the initiative like all the other marriage programs we took. We've completed the online survey and we've received the package. We're out of town right now so it's at home gathering dust. I haven't heard from the online coach since we submitted our survey. I've been listening to MB radio and the archives. It's awesome! I just realized, I can go to the other forums now, I just have to figure how to do that

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I'm happy for you both and I'm amazed that we're in such similar situation . We're no quitters that's for sure!

L2010NM, our stories are very similar! Sad that so many affairs follow the same patterns!

That was my husband and I on the radio show today. Great advice as always from the Harleys. The timelines were off (affair ended in July and NC established in August) but the gist is correct. I do feel I am checking on him less frequently as my trust and LB units are building!

I wondered who that was! You sounded great! But I liked that Dr Harley mentioned that there is nothing wrong with your continued snooping. The more you check, the more trust you build.

I am 10 years out and I STILL check from time to time. That is your insurance for a great marriage.

TexasSun's radio call with Dr Harley:

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

TS, he doesn't KNOW you snoop, does he? Do you keep your methods secret from him?

You had mentioned he is not happy about snooping. A better way is to keep it secret. Do you have methods he doesn't know about? One thing you might do instead of looking at his phone bill is install spyware on his phone that sends you daily reports.

TS, have your H's parents apologized for their despicable behavior to you yet? If not, your H needs to have a come to Jesus with them. If there is to be any hope of repairing that relationship, it needs to start with a sincere apology from them.

And they owe your H an apology too, for being so uncaring and unsupportive of HIM. A caring, loving parent does not enable their child when he is being bad. If my own son behaved in such a trashy manner, he sure wouldn't be sleeping on my couch because he wouldn't dare darken my doorstep!!

The problem with enablers is that the person being enabled tends to WAKE UP sometimes and they realize the enabler was not their friend, but their enemy.

I have a keylogger on the computer that he is not aware of. The phone log is updated every 15 minute online. I have struggled with looking at the past usage during the affair (when he became transparent and we combined our accounts again I got acess to all past logs...that was really hurtful and I keep checking back on things! Not a good idea!) So yes, I told him to close our old usage. Current stuff is fair game though.

Good girl!!

You don't sound like a Texan. You sound MIDWESTERN!

Melody, his father is twice divorced and in a 15-year relationship, he is unfaithful to his GF. His sister is divorced and remarried soon after (possibly an affairage) I doubt I will ever get any apology. His dad even found him a divorce attorney and accompanied and paid for the consultation. He let him use his credit card to buy a gift for OW. Just recently, the OW contacted my father in law. My husband fortunately said he is never welcome in our lives again if it continues. We hired a attorney and they wrote OW a cease and desist letter that specifically mentioned 3rd party contact. I am thrilled my husband is going the extra mile! This is the same man who DESPISED Marriage Builders after exposure lol

Lol...had to change from Rain Rain Go Away (Oregon!) To throw off OW. She hates MB cause of exposure and I was afraid she would look here

Bravo to him!!! Shame on his father....

Ya can't trick the Texans!!

I feel a little obsessed with revenge right now! Idk, I know its wrong...but I want her to feel some pain and embarrassement ...something! Just recently OW house went into foreclosure (she never mentioned this tidbit to my husband) Our business is buying and selling foreclosed homes lol. I was thrilled to hear she is suffering financially, but not paying the mortgage gave her $ to blow on my husband! When does the karma bus really hit?

So have been going over out budget and there is no where to squeek out the $995 for the MB program before Xmas. (we are moving as soon as our franchise will allow, so all money is going into that...top priority is getting away from constant triggers!) I do have the books, and romantic love workbook and the Basic concepts video. Can we cobble together a recovery program from this? The goal is to buy online seminar and accountability program but in the meantime?

Also, my husband feels it important to stay in couples counseling, which I think is not productive but maybe we will make strides once MB is implemented too!? We r also both in individual counseling and our daughter is starting again (anxiety poor thing!) So u can see where all our extra $ is going! I truly feel MB will be enough, ditch the counselors (except for kiddo)

If you are BOTH motivated to do whatever it takes, then this course works fine:
Surviving An Affair
Love Busters
His Need, Her Needs
Five Steps To Romantic Love

If either of you is reluctant about doing whatever it takes, you may need more assistance.

We r totally both on board but how do we build a program? The primary reason we need the online seminar is my husband doesn't like to read. We do have HNHN on itunes tho. SAA isn't available yet on itunes. I guess I don't know where to begin on our own.

TexasSun, you can buy the home study courses in smaller blocks. For example, you can buy the Lovebusters course which includes the CDS, books, and workbooks for $195. Maybe you could start small depending on your greatest needs and just buy the smaller programs as you can afford it?

And I *THINK* you can later sign up for the online course and they deduct the cost of the home study courses because you already have the materials.

The Lovebusters course or the HNHN courses are here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6031_loveaud.html

Also, my husband feels it important to stay in couples counseling, which I think is not productive

The primary reason we need the online seminar is my husband doesn't like to read.

Uhhhhh, isn't this the point where the OTHER Texan typically kicks in the door with her shotgun and explains that the opinion of the WS in matters pertaining to the optimum recovery program has about ZERO weight when in conflict with that of the BS?

Seriously - "doesn't like to read" ??? Did WE just read THAT?

psssst, hey MrYankee, she is a FAKE!! A fake Texan!!

If he doesn't like to read, I would definitely get him to incorporate daily listening to the radio program in his program of recovery. This is in addition to everything else.

Doormat_No_More is exactly right. If you are both motivated and you STAY motivated, you should be able to work right through those and do EVERYTHING they say.

If you try and falter, then the accountability program is the key to keeping both of you motivated.

We read aloud to one another. My wife, too, didn't want to "read" the material at first, but reading it aloud together & discussing it is a totally different experience.

H and I also read it aloud. It worked out really well, because we could stop and talk about sections right then and there. It gave us some nice time together and it kept us on track with the reading. We just read about maybe 20 minutes each night and completed the workbook pages together as well.

How are you both doing? Can you update us soon? I just listened to your April and December radio shows.

You FWH is very similar to mine, but mine still won't come home yet. He is still fuming (raging) mad over EXPOSURE, which killed the affair. Now he wants to divorce thinking he can chase her once he is single.

My WH has the same type of family as your FWH (adulterers).

What made you FWH finally come home to work on it?

Hey sweetie, I heard you on the radio show too! What a great resource for us all! So we are doing well, better than I expected at this point. Still feels a little bit like a roller coaster, but more like a kiddie version, not the six flags style! He is doing a lot of the heavy lifting and has embraced MB. (really wish I didnt mention it during exposure cause it was A LOT of work to get him onboard!) So what really helped was taking a step back from his family, they just didnt offer the right kind of support. (father in law communicating with OW, gross!) FWH basically missed his.family, our kids are 8 and 11, they would not tolerate another woman/man in our lives. Exposing to the kids was critical! Also, I think he hit rock bottom after the 2nd affair and

Realized her was going to lose everything. I was sooo close to Plan B, but he came home right before. (I do feel like my Plan A was too long, he may have come home sooner but he was a cake eater and I felt physically sick/sad/crazy and was a difficult person when he did come home) much better now thank God! How is wayturd? I cannot find your thread, thinking of you!

Thanks for the update. My thread is gone because my situation was unique with the military. I am still on reading and studying.

Wayturd is still running from his four kids and I. It is a sad situation, and I hope he is missing us and wanting to do what is right soon. I just pray incessantly, and try to keep hope alive.

I take hope in your situation because I believe your FWH and mine have many similarities. I worked diligently to clean up my side of the fence, and this has helped my self esteem tremendously.

A quick question - what did your FWH say about how he felt you were critical pre-A? Did he bring that up when he came home, or was that just an excuse to justify his adultery?

I have to see Wayturd in court the first week of February. He hasn't seen my weightloss (Because of Plan B), which was dramatic (weighing in today at 125 pounds), and I plan to wear a tight leather dress with my stiletto heels. We'll see if that gets his attention.

Many prayers for you and your family. I am happy your FWH is making you feel safe. Your marriage is going to be so spectacular and your kids will be so greatful for this!!!

God Bless Tough~

You are going to look HOT and it sounds like that is a huge need for him...you go girl! That is amazing! I guarantee he will notice Your new confidence! I am thinking of you and hope wayturd hits rock bottom very soon!!! As for my husbands criticisms of me, elements were true but greatly exxagerated because of his affair fog. I have always been critical of his family, deservedly lol. However, biting my tongue about them only helps, I cant control their lifestyle!

TS - Hey Sweetie, why did your WH still speak to her up until October?

How is his fog now? How long did it last after October?

Hi PI! So he "broke up" gag! with her early July by phone. She continued to pursue so he sent email end of July. Things settled, he moved home. She started texting and emailing (before he got new cell # and blocked email) so we sent NO Contact letter in September and changed numbers etc. He thought breaking up was enough, it wasnt, not even close, she returned to sender NC letter so I put it on her car and she called cops lol. So his last response to her was the break up email in July and no contact letter in September. In October she began contacting his Dad via Facebook, so we got an attorney to write no contact letter. What a mess, she is such a pathetic piece of crap! He had his ONS in July at the same time so obviously OW #1 wasnt very special.

The fog lasted a couple months, not sadness over her cause he really wanted to get out, but he wrestled with guilt, depression, losing friends, not living the single life, my anger, kids anger etc. etc. Rock bottom (July) was BAD. By late August the worst of the bad attitude aka withdrawal was dwindling (he had been drinking more frequently to replace OW I guess) After that, he came around and was totally willing, EP's in place, trying hard but didnt want to do MB (thought it was crazy when I exposed.) We did regular counseling, marriage retreat, started a program called Torn Asunder etc. but I kept pushing for MB.

Ok, after much consideration, I am going to ask the mods to remove my thread. I have reread it and each time it makes me sooo ANGRY for what we went through. Rehashing the affair is not part of recovery and I need to move on! I will continue to post, but I dont have the self-control to not look back on my thread and relive the nightmare of both of our affairs! I am CaliSun now (cause OW wont be able to access my thread, I never was from Texas!):)

This thread is now locked at the member's request.