post#1
so here i am. as we have worked together on mb, counselors, etc, and read the books i begin to see how cliche' it all is. it's amazing no one tells you this until it's too late. it should be a class in high school (probably wouldn't have paid attention) or college (would have thought it could never happen to me, or it was so simple how could anyone not see it).

How can smart people be so stupid? if i heard my life as if it was someone elses, it would have been easy to see the issues and solve the problems and warn myself. idiot.

i love my wife.

conversation and affection // sex and recreational activities
it should have been on the marriage certificate i wouldnt be here typing midnight on a friday night

three sides to every story, mine, yours, and the truth. this is mine.

what came first, the chicken or the egg? I stopped conversation and affection, or she stopped sex and recreational activities. answer: it doesnt matter.

sex is like air, you dont think about it until its gone. and when its gone, its all you think about.

i go to sleep next to the person i want every night, i cant have, and doesnt want me. insane torment

i love my wife, but no sex. we talk about it. it doesnt go anywhere. so i look for affection elsewhere, i flirt etc and then i cross the line. problem is, i crossed the line when i flirted. i was already digging the hole.

bam. secret second life.

(just saying it is horrible. confession. addmitting to the horrible person you are. that will knock you down. but the most pain i ever felt in my life is watching the pain i caused my wife.)

today
everything is on the table, polygraph etc. she has access to cell, computer at work, i'm gps-ed. i am an open book. (its pretty easy to accept when you have nothing to hide.)

i call and text all day. some more than others. but she always knows where i am. counselor 2x/wk. i'm all in.

i still leave details out during the day and she wants to rip my head off. but you've seen the posts. i havent. but i think i am getting better everyday

my wife has been posting for a while and she has encouraged me to log on. so i am sure i am opening myself to some bashing.

so here i am.

as i watch her sleeping in the chair across the room as i type this......

here i am.

Welcome, I have followed Dee's thread from the beginning and we have posted back and forth a bunch for support becuase our D-Days were so close.

I dont think you will get much bashing as you are already out of the fog and working on recovery. You are not blame shifting or trying to hide.

One thing I'm having an issue with right now with my FWH is him taking the reins and helping me heal.

Read here :http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2554098#Post2554098

Dont let Dee go through the same things He and I are going through. Step up and learn from this site what is needed to heal her wounds first (without her having to ask or push you). Then it will heal your own. Its like taking out the trash, you know when it needs to be done so she should not have to ask you to do it...

Welcome to MB. I am very glad that you are posting here.

We care deeply about chickadee, not just because many of us are betrayed spouses, but because she is a lovely person. Her willingness to try again with you shows her great personal strength, and I don't suppose that right now, you can appreciate the gift you have been given - but one day I hope you will do.

You've registered on a weekend, which will be quiet, but stick around and keep posting to your thread and it will take off. From my perspective as a BW (the victim of a long, long-distance affair with numerous false recoveries), if you post here and ask what you can do to help recovery, that will be a tremendous help to your marriage. Don't stop posting after a short time because things seems okay from your end; that sends out a bad signal to your wife. You need to take the reigns and lead the marriage back to recovery. Your wife has worked so hard to get you here and now you must take over recovery.

Remind me whether you are doing the online course? If not, you should sign up for it right now (with agreement from your wife, of course).

I don't like your name. That's a horrible thing to call yourself, and from today, you are going to make sure that you are not a jerkyboy! Would you consider changing it?

Hi JB,

Welcome to MB!

What MB books have you read?

Are you counseling with the Harley's?

JB,

once you've answered his questions and the two of you get talking, do everything that PapaBear tells you to do.

Hey, it's Chickadee's husband!
What Sugar said. You should change your name. It applies to you less and less every day.

Now that you've been immediately met with criticism , welcome! You've been doing some serious defogging, so I doubt you'll get much in the way of 2X4s. But you will get a lot of valuable information that will help you and Dee as you recover.

Good job, posting here!

Hey maybe we are looking at it wrong and he just like to eat beef jerky.

Good call, LD! Jerkyboy it is Of course, we'll probably shorten it to JB, too. I don't think he qualifies to be called "Jerk" at this point.

I don't think he qualified for it.

Now if I can just get my husband to do the same and sign on.

Hi Jerkyboy, welcome to Marriage Builders. Glad to see you here posting.

Or, maybe its a reference to the prank calling Jerky Boys from Queens, NY.

Alright then, Jerky.

I am in for the name change. You have proven you want to make a difference in your life, her life, and your marriage. Reading your name tells me you look down at yourself still. Yes you can look down on the Adultery. You don't have to look down on yourself.

This is what recovery is all about. Being able to look yourself in the eye. If you were still wayward you would be more than a jerk. Since you are working to heal yourself, you are simply human.

Integrity is sticking to the tough stuff even if the easy way out is on your front porch.

Stand tall, stand proud in your marriage, and stick around. You will make the lives of those on this board and around you better. For that you are a good man!!!

Deer jerky - that's the good stuff!

jerkyboy is what my wife called me (actually prior to DDay when she wasnt happy with me)so i thought it worked.

although there is beef jerky in the kitchen, and i know the boys in queens you mentioned.

i will look into changing the name.

so my wife is standing next to me and saw me typing and put her arm on the shoulder and walked away. that is why i will continue to post as long as it takes to make this work. its all i needed.

couseling
worked with jennifer for 5 months
just started mb on line course
read
his needs/her needs (should be required summer reading in school)
most of love busters (didnt read what didnt apply)
how to help your spouse heal from an affair

hardest thing right now is
nothing seems to be good enough
everything is important, i am not telling her everything thats important
my wife flips out VERY quickly (understandable)
i go into the cave and shut down

THANK YOU EVERYONE....
whatcha got in the picnic basket papabear?

JB,

Let me say this as a husband whose wife was nearly taken away and used for their own comfort and pleasure by another wayward husband... Welcome. Thank you for working or recovering your marriage and being better than you hoped you could be. thank you for not giving up on your wife no matter how hard it is (because us BS' make recovery hard when we are blindsided by this.

a word of advice. When you feel like shutting down, that's when you need to open up the most. Roll a stone in front of the cave so you cannot go back there. It feels like nothing is good enough, but it is. Thing is, it is going to take a lot of time and repetition. You are building with small stones to make a big wall. Don't forget that.

Keep posting, it helps. we're here. Healing will come

CV

JB, welcome to MB and what a great thing that you've started posting here!

ITA w/CV. But I know where you are coming from. It's hard *not* to shut down.

Sometimes I write. Well, more so lately I type - I couldn't tell you how many times I've started to compose a post here and deleted it, thought better of it, but somehow articulating my thoughts helped me. A journal has been suggested on lots of threads, one that you and Dee can either pass back and forth, or one you can leave available for her. It may help you with the whole "everything is important/not telling her what is important" issue.

I had 2 sessions w/Jennifer - she is great! I remember one of the things she and I talked about was RH/O&H. I was a trickle-truther as well, and post-A, O&H was my H's #1 EN. JC thought that it was most likely not more O&H about my A or the past that he wanted at that point, but more O&H about my present thoughts, feelings, and so on.

Get one of those little pocket-sized journals and keep it on you at all times. Write in it throughout the day. When you are home, leave it where she can read it whenever she feels like it. The more open and vulnerable you are to her, I bet the less she'll "flip out." You might be calling and texting your whereabouts and such, but what about the thoughts you have throughout the day? JC told me if I ever had the thought, "I shouldn't tell my H about this," then DUH - tell him! What about things that happen during the day that make you think of Dee - you read a funny story on the web, maybe, and think, oh, Dee would think this was funny - write it down.

I think it says a lot that you are willing to come here and post. Hope you stick around.

If I could give you one thing sir; keep the name. Do not change it seeking the approval of others. If your wife is fine with the name, keep it. She's the one from whom you should now and forward seek approval and admiration from.

In fact, with the revelation that it is one of her "pet names" for you, it fits.



Now... on the "nothing seems to be good enough" front; brother, it's just beginning.

I'll present to you two analogies that will illustrate the task at hand - the first is one used by the poster DoormatNoMore;

Creating romantic love after infidelity (aka "healing") is like creating a new island by chucking buckets of sand in a lake. It's going to take a lot of sand before it begins to peek above the water. Wind, waves, rain, and storms will wash that peak away, but you have to keep chucking buckets of sand.

My analogy;

Due to the agony you have released on your wife, she has wrapped herself in a protective shell. There are small cracks in that shell where some light can get in. You are tossing grains of rice at this shell, hoping to give her the nourishment she needs. If you throw only a single grains, or only small amounts (not keeping up with UA, not meeting ENs) they are not likely to fall through the small cracks.

However, if you throw HANDFULS (20+ hours of UA time, becoming expert at meeting her EN's, adhering to EP's), then some grains can slip through the cracks and give her the nourishment she needs to go forward.

She is STUCK in that cave, sir. And your actions put her there. She cannot simply decide to come out. Your action is what will free her.

JB, You've been coached by one the best marriage counselors available.

Dr. Chalmers opens your eye's, doesn't she....


So tell us how POJA, RH and UA are going....

I'm also curious how long ago your affairs began and how many there have been.

I must ask you all to make allowances for me. I never thought of beef (or any other) jerky when I saw that name. I'm British, and it just isn't part of our menu. You can see beef jerky in the aisles of a large enough supermarket, but it just isn't a regular food over here! I don't know anybody who actually eats it!

I only thought of "jerk" which we hear said a lot on US TV shows, and that is what I thought was wrong for a recovering WS.

Ignore me, JB, and carry on!

That's all I have to say about that.

JB, the advice you're getting so far is great. May I add: I agree that it's a good idea to keep notes during the day about things to share with Dee. I would also suggest that you pick up a little thing here or there to bring home to her on occasion - things like a flower, or a little card with a sweet note in it. My H still does that on occasion, and we're 2+ years into recovery. He'll put a little note under my pillow for me to find at bedtime, or will tape a note to the bathroom mirror for me to find after he leaves for work. Sometimes he puts a note in my car for me to find when I leave for work in the morning.

Very romantic, and deposits a lot into my LB. I do the same for him.

JB, my H and I have started the online course just as you and chickadee have. I was reading through the LB book on openness and honesty just recently, and I would say that this LB is probably one of your, and my husband's, worst.

One of the suggestions that Dr Harley has for why a spouse lies is that they are trying to protect the other spouse from unpleasant truths - or at least, that's what they think they are doing.

You have had multiple affairs. My H has had one affair in which contact has been maintained - and I have been deceived - for 8 years. There are similarities in the BS's experience with multiple affairs and with multiple false recoveries, and I think I know what chickadee feels about your need to be honest with her.

Chickadee has found out that, for a portion of your life, you thought nothing of hurting her to fulfil your desires. Also, she found out that you are capable of running a secret second life (and how!) and that she will not know when this is happening. There are WSs who are bad at the lying and covering up involved in an affair, and there are a few that confess when the BS puts them under pressure. You (and my H) are not one of those WSs. You and my H are really easy liars when it comes to selfish desires. You are good at it. You can separate your lives into the affair life, and adopt a mindset that goes with that, and the married life, and have a completely different mindset to go with that. You develop separate compartments in your minds for each of your lives and you are not troubled by running the two in tandem.

This is a horrifying thing for a BS to discover - and remember, I am saying that this is always discovered with multiple affairs and LTAs. You have made lying and a secret second life into a lifestyle choice. It is no longer an aberration, as an affair is for some WSs. It might even be a part of your basic character.

When you screw up in some way, and then lie to chickadee about the details - to try and protect her - you are not protecting her at all. No lying is really protective, but in your case it is also something else. It is a return to your being the same man who had multiple affairs against her and never batted an eyelid at hurting her.

The only way you can protect chickadee from hurt is to stop hurting her. Do not forget POJA when she is not with you; it still applies to decisions you make involving other areas of your life. More importantly, do not lie to her when you break POJA. If you break it then it is your responsibility to put it right - but you will never put it right by lying to chickadee.

Don't push your forgiving BW away by lying to her. Don't lie, ever again, JB.

I figured it was because he liked to make jerky.

Welcome to MB, JB. I have been following chicka's story since she started posting here and have admired her for fighting for your M after all that she has been through.


While it is great that you are transparent, that is only a part of being O&H. And being 100% O & H is probably one of the most important things you can do right now. Not only does it meet one of chicka's top ENs, but when you are NOT O&H (meaning you leave out details that she finds out about later on her own, which you have admitted to doing) it is a HUGE lovebuster. Huge.

And it sets back your recovery given that she was in the dark on what was going on in your secret second life for so long...and of course, she is going to wonder, What else is he not telling me?

I have talked to Dr Harley about the topic of radical honesty on the radio show. It is not only a moral issue (do you believe that you need to tell chicka EVERYTHING?) but it also requires practice. And for most people who have had a secret second life, especially a long one, it is going to be hard to be radically open and honest and you will most likely need to practice it in order to get into the habit of it.

Practice sitting down with her after work each day and telling her the details about your day, especially regarding any interactions with females. If there is a detail about your day that you even have to wonder if you need to tell her, it might be easier to just keep that to yourself (you know what I am referring to, right?), then that is exactly the type of thing that you need to tell her about, right away.




JB, I hope you will come to realize that some 2x4s are actually the way we show our support around here. We are rooting for your M!

FIRST I WANT TO THANK EVERYONE.
this is not something you can talk about openly with people and if i did they couldnt relate and the the advice would be horrible anyway SO THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR TAKING TIME OUT OF YOUR DAY TO SHED SOME LIGHT ON THE GUY WANDERING IN THE DARK

i will work on my replies.

quick question, how do you pick out a quote and have it pasted in the box so you can refer to it when replying?

See these buttons on the bottom of each post?

Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote Notify Email Post

Click "quote" underneath the post you want to quote and the magic is done! Post your own words above or underneath the quote.

Click "preview post" to see what your post will look like, and correct any errors before pressing "submit".

You can take out parts of the post that you don't want, as long as you do not mess with the brackets at the beginning and end of the quoted post.

this forum is chock full of good advice

...and tough women waiting for your responses.

shutting down is easy (not right) because nothing seems to get worked out in a fight. its emotional not logical. it is easy to fight at work its not emotional. nothing gets accomplished when its emotional. sometimes i need time to wrap my head around the issue and start over. i just seem to take too long. i'll work on not climbing in the cave. it obviously isnt working for me.

[quote=wulffpack_girl] It's hard *not* to shut down.

A journal has been suggested on lots of threads, one that you and Dee can either pass back and forth, or one you can leave available for her. It may help you with the whole "everything is important/not telling her what is important" issue.

I remember one of the things she and I talked about was RH/O&H. I was a trickle-truther as well, and post-A, O&H was my H's #1 EN. JC thought that it was most likely not more O&H about my A or the past that he wanted at that point, but more O&H about my present thoughts, feelings, and so on.

Get one of those little pocket-sized journals and keep it on you at all times. Write in it throughout the day. When you are home, leave it where she can read it whenever she feels like it. The more open and vulnerable you are to her, I bet the less she'll "flip out." You might be calling and texting your whereabouts and such, but what about the thoughts you have throughout the day? JC told me if I ever had the thought, "I shouldn't tell my H about this," then DUH - tell him! What about things that happen during the day that make you think of Dee - you read a funny story on the web, maybe, and think, oh, Dee would think this was funny - write it down.

quote]

great idea. i will do starting today and especially when we fight.

tickle truth is tough, and hurts everyone, and when you say it all out loud, it makes you feel like a monster. i didnt think putting it all out there would be so hard to do. in the end i couldnt do it and had to write it all out. once i handed over the paper you cant suger coat or leave something out.

once she had all the information the worst thing happened.... i destroyed something beautful, and i felt free and horrible at the same time ....my head....brain and heart overload if i question something if i should tell my wife. i will write it down. its probably the most important thing i should tell her. good advice

JB, you are messing about with the brackets! On the last post, you left one saying

quote]

when it should have said

[/quote]!

Delete the text you don't want, but leave the brackets alone!

Notebooks and time limits. set time limits on the talks and write down important things. that way when/if you go off on the argument you can revisit when cooler heads prevail.

i am opening up more and more everyday. the more open/honest i am, the easier it becomes. each is a grain

your quote:
marianne wiliamson- It is our light, not our darkness that we fear.........playing small does not serve the world. we are all ment to shine"

do not be afraid to become something great. if you set out to succeed dont do it half heartedly....i'm all in...

POJO this was tough actually- a started giving in to everything and then was mad about it later instead of JOINT AGREEMENT. that took a while to figure out

RH this was slow but becomes increasingly easier. almost to the point where i say should i say that? but it always seems to be the right thing to do. and not saying it is always bad

UA this is pretty easy

Can you tell me more?

How many hours each week, how do you decide what to do, and what types of activities are you both choosing...

Are you scheduling the UA time or just winging it?

Are you scheduling time for SF or just allowing it to occur naturally?

Due to your coaching, I'm assuming you've both done the RC Worksheet, please correct me if that's not the case..

I know, I'm a man with many questions!

This one still needs an answer tooooo....

i assumed you would be asking the tough questions. its tough to answer, because it reminds me of the person i became, and the pain i caused my wife.


the affairs started 12yrs ago
there have been quite a few

(i was going to end it at that, but then what is the point of posting. i'm not just looking to talk but get advice and move forward in a positive direction with my wife.)

i wrote them all out and gave them to my wife
afairs ranged from flrting in a bar to sex in the most recent cases.

most afairs consisted of flirting in a bar or one or two dates (not sexual)and spaced out over long periods of time.

love was never a consideration

in the beginning I ended anything if it hinted at emotional or physical. however, they mostly started for the need for attention and affecton. sex was never a goal.

make any sense?

UA we are empty nesting so spending time together is easy, 40+hrs

UA activities: cooking, going out to dinner, diagnostic, talk,

UA we used to schedule it but now wing it

SF no scheduling / avg monthly

never got to the RC worksheet

i am all over this, flowers once a week...i bring them home. i used to have it sent to work every monday...hugh mistake actually worked against me

notes in the car in the morning i do

meet for lunch during work

have her pick out clothes in a magazine and i get them for her

any other ideas?

good stuff.

this really hit me hard because it's so dead on. secret second life. lying. i understand everything you said and took it very seriously as these are things my wife told me also.

LYING TEARS APART MY WIFE'S REALITY.

harsh. true. ended.

no lying ever. share the details. second life is dead.

second life note:
dramatic lifestyle adjustment. the second life isnt just about an affair but RA. if my wife didnt want to do an activity i went and did it anyway. i was tired of no. run, swim, bike, sail, museums, competions, work on house, friends etc. this is something we have to work on. i have become suddenly sedintary.

but one thing at a time.

When we began recovery, my FWH told me that he was going to bring me flowers at least once a week. Don't get me wrong - I love flowers. But that wasn't what I was looking for. That wasn't...comprehensive enough for me. It would have been too easy and would have become almost impersonal after a short while. The novelty would wear off fairly quickly. Plus, the frugal side of me chafed at the thought of all that money going out of our budget for flowers. Dee may think like I do when it comes to flowers.

Good rule of thumb: don't start something you can't (or shouldn't) maintain. Flowers are nice...once in a while. After that, Dee may start fretting (like I did) about the cost.

Other stuff - let me think...he mailed a sweet card to me at work because he knew I had a tough week coming up. It was very surprising to get it - and very sweet.

He changed the sheets on the bed on Saturday (we always change them on Sunday)while I was in the jacuzzi because he wanted me to have clean sheets after my soak.

We were talking at lunchtime one day (both at our own offices)and I mentioned to him that I was craving tandoori chicken, which is chicken in an Indian paste. It's a paste that is hard to find in our area. I mentioned that we'd have to wait until we went to an ethnic shop to get the paste for the chicken. He went to a little Indian store that afternoon and brought the paste home. (We cook a lot together, so it was a huge hit for me!)

The common thread in all of these things is best summed up when you think this way: "What can I do for Dee today that would make her really happy? What can I do that will give her pleasure?" That's what will fill her love bank.

More ideas for you to work with (I had to wait for Mr.Bliss to get out of the shower because I wanted to make sure there wasn't anything I was missing from our early days of recovery that might help )

He planned a whole day for us at our nearest big city. Shopping at this really cool huge market of their local grocers (remember, we love to cook together)then we were off to this neat local micro-brewery to taste-test their daily brew, then on to a little ethnic restaurant for appetizers, back to the house to prepare dinner from the goodies we bought earlier. And then to bed. I'll stop my story there-but UA time continued, if I may be so bold. My love bank was pretty full.

He bought tickets for us to see our professional ball team (same big town). I'm not a big fan of baseball, but with dinner, and my interest in being open to new experiences for us, it was a fun night out.

He beat me home from work and started dinner. I walked in to place settings already laid, water glasses placed, and take-out being skillfully placed on our plates (the poor fella is lost when it comes to home-cooking without me, LOL).

Then you've got your everyday stuff, like rubbing feet, etc.

Contrary to popular belief, women DON'T like planning all their outings! They don't want to have to run the show. They LIKE having their husband plan everything out, from soup to nuts.I love having great outings with my husband, where I didn't have to plan a thing.

I appreciate that you went on to answer this.

I don't want to harp on it too much but the items I highlighted lead to a couple more questions.

You said, "In the beginning", so does that mean the first one or two affairs, or ??

And your first post doesn't exactly line up with the idea that sex wasn't the goal.

See if you can pick up on what I'm seeing here;


I'm not trying to trip you up by comparing posts, so please don't read that into my post. I would just like you to elaborate on it some more. I honestly think you just need to complete your thoughts more.

I'm sure you have a concern about triggering your wife when you put your thoughts/old behaviors into something she can read, but from my experience, not answering completely will actually be the real cause of her pain. My wife just wanted to see if I understood how to be open and honest.... And she intuitively knew when I wasn't, and it was the REAL cause of her pain...

Recreational Companionshiop Inventory Worksheets Link

I'm going to challenge both you and your wife to put a great deal of honesty and effort into filling this out ASAP!

Follow the instructions!

good advice, i will start some planning of my own. I stopped because she would usually start with "why dont we do this instead". kind of defeats the purpose and left me feeling why plan? i will take baby steps with this.

however i will start to think "what can i do to make her happy today"
i will keep you posted.

I'm going to challenge you to stick with scheduling your UA time.... And YOU need to take the lead on this.

You will fall into your old habits over time if you don't, and your wife will slide into the abyss as a result.


I'm also going to ask you to really evaluate your UA time.... Is the 40+ really UN-INTERRUPTED time? Are you giving each other you UN-DIVIDED ATTENTION?

Just because you are both in the same room or the same golf course, is the time really undivided attention?

I can't give anything 40+ hours of undivided attention, except maybe sleep.... and I even pause to question that....


I'm sure Jennifer covered this in your coaching, but UA time is the time you spend meeting each others top EN's... You schedule the UA time in order to make certain that you've allowed for an emphasis of the number one and two EN's.

And please remember, these are questions, OK? Come back and answer them for me, but only after you've given them some thought.

Enjoy Your Day!

Look at this more! You stopped because your wife didn't give you the admiration you felt you deserved for planning time out, and instead of being honest with yourself, you turned it into something more than what it was.....

How do I know this?

Admiration is my number one EN.... I'm betting it's way up there for you too!

It can cause me great pain when my wife dissed my ideas, thoughts, plans, etc.... I will shut down, act detached, pout, etc. And my wife usually has absolutely NO idea why I've shut down.

IT'S BECAUSE, I'm not honest with her....

Do you see a pattern in your own life with the lack of honesty causing the problems (like the "why plan" scenario you mentioned)?

Think about it; How can your wife meet these EN's of YOUR'S, like admiration, if you won't safely share when she has missed the target?


Dishonesty is bad habit that can lead to independent behavior that causes our spouse to become angry with us, accusing us of being selfish and we both become disrespectful with each other as a result.... Which one of the LB's did I miss?

Just a quick thought;

Write your plans in pencil and keep an eraser handy...

It allows for some spontinaity to occur.....

Rigidity can be an enemy to romantic love!

Don't let that stop you. Women don't like making all the plans, but it is in their nature to bring order from chaos. (We tamed our husbands, didn't we? I suspect I'm going to get in trouble from some of our gentleman posters for that comment, but I'm going to leave it )

Make the plans for a fun day (keeping in mind what her interests are). Don't even tell her what the two of you will be doing - tell her you're taking her on an adventure and leave it at that.

Mental note to maritalbliss: remind Dee to let her H plan a fun day for the two of them and enjoy it without trying to control it.

Hey JB-

I've been following your wife's thread since she started and it looks like you've come a long way. Good job!

As someone else suggested, any time you feel like *not* telling her something, you should definitely tell her. It seems to be recurring theme as honesty looks like a big issue. There was a post about a week ago involving your son coming to your house and him calling his mother to pick him up. You tried to avert that and the situation resolved itself.

But you didn't tell your wife and she found out about it by other means. Why didn't you tell her to begin with?

I suspect that your motives were good (sparing your wife the pain/burden) but the implementation was poor.

Both of me are waiting!!

lol, HPB you might want to post those questions again. I had to use the find funtion on my computer to find that statement...

Or you making him work for it ?

Don't let that stop you. Women don't like making all the plans, but it is in their nature to bring order from chaos. (We tamed our husbands, didn't we? I suspect I'm going to get in trouble from some of our gentleman posters for that comment, but I'm going to leave it )

[/quote]

AHEM!!!

Some of us have done the taming too!

But your idea is a good one. I like it!

ok i thought about it before i posted. it takes me a ridiculous amount of time to answer. expressing my feelings is not something i do. i type and delete alot...too much. so i'm giving everything i got.

LOVE WAS NEVER A CONSIDERATION
i never intended or would allow myself to be emotionally attached to the women i met. ever. if i felt that the other person was moving in that direction i walked away. falling in love with someone else was never a consideration, or option.

this can also be interpreted as i didnt consider the love i had for my wife. i always loved her. this is not what i meant when i said this. i was frustrated, and angry, but i loved her. if i didnt love her i would have left. i didnt need to fall in love with someone else to leave.

YOU SAID "IN THE BEGINNING", SO DOES THAT MEAN THE FIRST ONE OR TWO AFFAIRS??
my wife is reading my thread, so it is hard to throw it all out there. But i am actually ok with it (although difficult) because SHE wants to know everything, and if she didnt read this, it would just be another "secret".

The first affair was approximately 12yrs ago. it basically happened when is was working away from home and just coming home on the weekends. I had actually worked away from home in the past for extended periods of time and there wasn't any thought about crossing the line.

when the affair started my thought process was pretty simple...
if we dont have sex this month i have had enough, and im leaving
if we dont have sex in the next 6 month, i have had enough and im leaving
if we dont have sex this year i have had enough and im leaving
I couldn't leave, but i wasnt happy

then i left for a project where i came home on the weekends.

at first i thought, well i won't be upset that we dont have sex, and i didnt have to ask for sex and be rejected all the time. this plan was awesome. stupid and an incredibly caveman thought process but at the time i thought i invented the wheel. (there was never intercourse, - guilt, my line, i dont know)

the OW started to become emotionally involved and i walked away.

the guilt was ridiculous after that and nothing happened for a long time.

But sex or any attention was rare at home and i begane to flirt in the bars again, and a hand on the shoulder got me through. this was spotty for years. weeks, months or even a year apart.

I stopped asking my wife for sex because, what was worse than no sex was no sex and rejection.

then the ex was in the picture, again flirting and then physical (no intercourse)this was spotty again, we didnt see each other for months at a time.

i didnt really loose my mind until about approximately two and half years ago. i felt my life slipping away. i learned to swim, did some triathalons, learn to sail, golf, took on too much on at work, worked on the house a ridiculous amount. the flirting became more often and i even went on dates. ultimately i had sex with three women in the time frame before DDay. i defiately spun out of control moving 100 miles an hour everyday all day.

"AND YOUR FIRST POST DOESNT EXACTLY LINE UP WITH TH IDEA THAT SEX WASNT YOUR GOAL"

so in the end i guess it was about the sex. even though i always told myself it wasnt. it sounds juvinille to say it. and i feel ashamed that it was not something i could figure out myself. almost like a weakness. or a huge fault. the fatal flaw.

But when i flirted in the bars during the past years it didnt seem to be about the sex. i was there because sex was missing, but it was offered more easily than i expected, and it was always easy to walk away (narcisitic or just not goal?)

so i am afraid to trigger my wife. it is still new and the pain is still great.

i spoke about what was important in my mind and what i was thinking in my head. im sure my wife remembers things differently but this is my perseption at this time.

there is a tendency to speak in generalities, but my wife has the details and im comfortable with that.

RC
i will make sure that we do the RC worksheet this weekend

UA
i get your point, less than 40+. we are just spending the time together. i will start to track UA this week and really see what it is.

i get the honesty point you are talking about. i dont tell her that by her shutting down my plans it discourages me to plan in the future. and then i am not happy doing what she wants. all bad and... snowballing into stupid.

being honest with my wife has been pretty easy. being honest about my feelings seems to be the challenge that i am working on every day.

wow that was a lot. it actually physically wears me out. running a couple of miles is easier.

honesty honesty honesty honesty

if i just told her what happened, how i felt about it, and what i did, things would have been fine. in fact i probably would have banked some LU, instead i lost them.

i learned the most with this incident. it was so simple and i made it so difficult for no reason. and i hurt my wife more than i could imagine.

you cant be a team if you are playing with different rules.

this is a tough one for us. i really gave up on this a long time ago. she is the planner, i am more spontaneous. she is NOT happy with spontaneous. and she plans better than me.

however i will begin my planning and i will report back. i will be creative and will think about what will make my wife happy today.

I'm an extreme planner but would love it if my H would plan something romantic for me. I'm sure your W would feel the same way and would deposits tons in her LB$.

And read the review sheet and fulfill her needs EVERYDAY!

I'm glad your posting here JB.

This is going to have to evolve, then. The two of you need to work on this together.

One thing: until you get the hang of planning (and Dee gets the hang of letting you plan) write down your plan. Then show it to her for her input. I'm not saying she would rework the day, I'm saying she needs the opportunity to review it for any potential triggers she'll want to avoid. (Obviously you should plan it with avoiding triggers in mind, as well.)

Hey, JB!

Great work. I am truly impressed.

[quote] being honest with my wife has been pretty easy. being honest about my feelings seems to be the challenge that i am working on every day. [\quote]

To me, these are the SAME things. You AREN'T honest with your wife unless you're being emotionally honest, too. If you aren't telling her what you feel, you are NOT being Open and Honest, and you're starting to build a secret inner life. And then it's easier and easier to lie about bigger things.

So be honest. If you're disappointed, tell her. Just don't do it in a Love Busting way. Calm, reasonable and open to discussion. This time around, you want to get your needs met, too. And that requires you telling her what you want and need as well.

And tracking UA time: great! Planning romantic outings: great! But don't think it has to be a grand gesture every day. That would wear us all out.

I know if my FWH said to me even once a week: Sweet Pea, I'm so grateful you are my wife and you have given me a chance to prove my true devotion. ... Well, I'd be in HEAVEN!

Cheers,
SP

For some reason, waywards like to make it a big drama, something more than it is.... When we get honest, we feel very foolish starring at the simplicity of our self deception.....




Good...

Just remember to follow the instructions.


I really hope you start scheduling it!

Making sure that you are scheduling time that meets both you and your wife's number one and number two top EN's.

That includes scheduling SF in there. When it's scheduled you'll have little to no chance of being rejected, because you've agreed to a reasonable schedule ahead of time.

OK!


You can't change a behavior if you are UN-AWARE you are doing it....

So now that you are aware of this behavior, whatcha gonna do differently?



Thanks for getting back to all my questions.

I know this stuff can drain you, now you have a small taste of what your wife has been living with daily....

I'm sure she is grateful for your changes, but I'm just as sure that she is exhausted x10....

Let me know how the RC Inventory goes...

??

How'd the RC inventory go??

Are you scheduling your UA again??

i havent written back because we did our RC and i dont know what to do with it.

RC was always an issue, i used to give three options of things to do (inside, outside, one active) none of them seemed interesting to her and we usually ended up doing nothing. if i asked what she wanted to it was usually i dont know. it was frustrating and eventually i gave up and did my own thing. Sounds ridiculously familiar to the sex issue. My problem is withdrawl. the definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a diferent result. the problem was not knowing what to do.

so we give the numbers to the activities and what it comes out is alot of oddball activities. we are working on picking some new activities to do. we havent yet been successful. but i am determined to make something work. (spearfishing and archery got 4s). i think she likes the idea of the physical activities. not the actual doing.

on a more serious issue. my son is back in town(son 26yrs old from the OW). my wife who encouraged me to have the relationship with my son because of her own broken family issues now is in conflict with the fact that my son will have ties to the OW. she says she could never tell me not to see my son but at the same time is now a trigger. "Is the ow dropping him off? etc.?" this is a big issue and i have pretty much stopped communicating with him to avoid triggering my wife. and i think he feels there are issues and is not trying to contact me. he has spoken to my other family members and even my wife. Maybe he is just disappointed in me in general with everything that has happened.

i feel overly sensitive and blundering through life rather than controling my destiny "bull by the horns" so to speak. i second guess things. i feel out of my skin. i want to make things better. i hit road blocks with things i created myself not things thrown at me. (i could ahave handled the things thrown at me.) i am disappointed with who i am. i expected more from myself. i expected to give more back. instead i took things away.

This is the kind of attitude that will help you, Jerkyboy.

My FWH and I spend a lot of our RC time walking our dog. It's quiet, it's healthy and it's easy. Sometimes we're chatterboxes; sometimes we're both kind of quiet. Sometimes the dog makes us laugh. But we have done A LOT of talking, laughing and hand-holding during those walks.

Give it a try. The fall is gorgeous for walking. We go almost nightly and at least once each day on the weekends. Even a 20-minute walk does wonders.

(And now that it's dark so early, we wear reflective vests and carry flashlights. We both feel better if we make the effort to do something healthy for our bodies and our relationships!)

JB, you can have no contact with OW. I won't waste time addressing that. It is what it is.

As far as UA time, try this: both of you make a list of ten things you would like to do. Compare notes. Take the five you agree on, write them down and throw them in a jar. Agree to pull one of them out and DO THAT ACTIVITY.

Post this on the Weekend Forum to Dr. Harley....

There is a sub-heading on RC and it's a great place to ask for his thoughts.



Look, for twelve years you've allowed youself an out (affairs) if you didn't get what you wanted, the way you wanted it!

You're going to have to stop acting like you gave it your all for the last twelve years....
Because you didn't!

Do you see how this paragraph is riddled full of subtle DJ's about your wife?.... You've gotta stop that!

Let's get your eyes forward focused, rather than rear view mirror paralyzed...



Again, do you see the DJ's in there.....

Choose the highest ranked items and try including one or two of them in the plans YOU make, for the 15+ hrs of UA time, that you're scheduling every week. (You are scheduling again, right?)


Have you been 100% honest with your son about your years of lies and adultery? Have you written out and explained the rules of engagement with him??
If you haven't, then fix this and be his father! It's really that simple!!

BTW, You've stopped because it's become inconvenient.
Is this a pattern of yours?


Welcome to recovering from twelve years of living a deceitful life..... It's not gonna feel all warm and fuzzy JB, it's gonna take a great deal of practice and time.

Jerky: Listen to Marital and PapaBear. They are awesome and are giving you excellent advice!

How's it going JB??

hey
RA - we are leaving for bermuda tomorrow for my wifes b day. and we are working on our RA's

it is still difficult to come up with something for our RA's but we are working on it.

ISSUES
guilt, betrayal it is always there. every day. how do you every get past the gorilla. a triggers, a cocktail, it always comes around.

You need to be much more specific....

What is your gorilla?

What specifically are you struggling with in regards to a triggers?

What is an a cocktail?

i hate the gorilla.

i'm exhausted, i know i'm the bad guy. I am following the mb plan and beyond. but the gorilla that we cant get past is the guilt for me and the betrayal my wife feels. I hate the gorilla.

I am sad if she is sad i am happy when she is happy.

Triggers. there is always something. as soon as everything is going great there is a trigger. its insane. crushing. heartbreaking. hurtful. painful. distance building. headache giving. dont want to eat. eat to much. all consuming. i see the pain in my wife and it is like a sledgehammer to the back of my head.

i think i said this before but, seeing my wife hurt is horrible. knowing i caused it, rips out my heart

i know she is thinking either stop the triggers or let her go and walk away because the pain will stop if i leave. it will hurt in the beginning but then it will be over and no more triggers. if i am there then there will always be triggers.
i am the cause of her continued pain. gorilla.

i want to start building our lives. it always seems within reach and that gorilla comes in our lives with his gun and pulls that trigger. BANG and i gave him the bullets.

i hate the gorilla

some triggers i cant control. some i can.
i try to get rid of all the things that could trigger my wife.

BUT.....

today in a calandar in outlook i saw a birthday for O.W. I deleted, O&H i tell her. and send her the calander and another O.W. birthday is on there. BANG BANG what an idiot.

EP i probably deleted the event and not the series. it doesnt really matter. i faulted on my EP. bang

the name of the OW was on the calander but not on the list of OW that i gave my wife during D DAY. The OW was on the list as an event not the name. i didnt remember the name at the time (no excuse, no trust, i'm a liar) but i never called anyone by thier name, it made it easy not to mix things up and easier to walk away if things got slightly emotional.

i think i would rather be called the liar when i have it all written out like this. rather than someone one didnt care about anything or anyone.

gorilla just smacked me upside the head. the guilt is horrible when you write it out. i never really saw the extent of the carelessness of others until i stepped back.

im soo tired. i know my wife is too. i feel if it was just the two of us with no outside triggers we could move ahead. bang something happens.

i hate the gorilla.

i get the fact that its easy to go through life when its easy its how we handle the hard stuff that defines us. but my gorilla is big and he is angry.

TRIGGERs -
locations (i dont go certain places),
my son-26yrs OW (i curb my contact),
specific dates, holidays(if i could change the calander i would)
work events(i dont do any more),
cell phones, emails, (new phone number and share email w/wife)songs (if i have music on it doesnt have words),
movies, TV (i dont watch TV or movies anymore, there is always, always, something)

it seems that there is always going to be something. how do you fight the gorilla?

i hate the gorilla

It sounds like you're making a valiant effort, but just keep stepping in it

Why don't you go over the list of triggers with your wife and see what you guys can come up with. There are probably some that you haven't thought of as well. I don't know, maybe rank them in order of bad to worse and tackle the "worse" ones first.

The technology (cell, emails, music) seems easy enough to handle, and the locations could be handled by moving, but I guess it's your son and his mother that are the big one.

I looked for the gorilla and the gorilla was me!

You can do this. Regardless of how you feel, you are capable of protecting your wife, being honest with her, spending time with her, and expressing care for her. With encouragement from us here who have done it, you can keep at it even when you feel demotivated.

You will discover that feelings do follow actions. Taking right actions, keeping your emotions in check and sticking to the plan, will set up the environment that will change all the emotions in your marriage.

And when you've provided the compensation that you can, for longer than you thought possible, better than you thought possible ... you will discover that you do not feel as guilty.


I question whether you should be trying to get past your wife's feelings.

Marriage Builders is pretty much never about getting past your wife's feelings, no matter what they are.

And I stand with HerPapaBear: I found out I was the gorilla, too. That explained a lot about my wife's feelings.

Hey JB,

What's up?

Sup?

Things are going well with recovery. MB class, marriage counselor 2x per week, 40 hrs per week of time together, constant communication (call, text email) during the day, do everything together, transparency, full access to my phone, email, location, computer at work, open and honest, full disclosure, I avoid geographical locations, no work functions that take place after 5:00.

It is actually pretty easy.

The part that is difficult-

1) We have a notebook that my wife writes down questions and I answer them. The questions are about the other women. It is as painful to give as it is to hear. Thus the notebook. But it does leave room for miscommunication, but it�s what works best at this time. I gave all the information. There is nothing else. She doesn�t believe me and wants all the details. I understand because I did the trickle truth thing, but I got nothing else. She wants the gory details and I don�t feel comfortable with it, but this is what she wants. I don�t see how this will help, but it is important to her in order to move ahead. So I am working on it. I don�t know where the line is with this? i dont know what she wants. Help.

2) I tend to avoid friends and family because she gets very upset if I forget to tell her if I spoke to someone. It�s basically not worth the risk. Also they always ask to get together, and this doesn�t work in our new life together, so again it�s easier to just avoid them. We are a couple and we will do things together under POJA or we don�t do it.

3) We really haven�t worked the sex thing out. We are very close, we do romantic things, we talk, do nice things, hold hands but�I haven�t figured it out.

This past week we spoke about when we first met that my wife was like a dog with a bone and didn�t let go. I was more focused on school - job etc. When sex came off the table I ignored her. This set a tone. Although now this seems like a typical rookie mistake, I understand what I did. I am working very hard to show her that she is my world and that I love her very much.

p.s. I am killing my inner gorilla.

This isn't that hard JB, you answer her questions no matter what. You don't question her motive, you just answer her. Keep it simple, OK.

The best analogy I can think of is that you are expecting your wife to walk down a railroad track and asking her to never look back to see if a train is a comin'...... She has been hit by so many trains as a result of your serial adultery, coupled with your trickle truths, that you need to give her a great deal of grace regarding her need to know all of the peices of her life with you....
Read Josephs Letter again, it can be found in the notable posts!

If your wife requests everything about the A why wouldn't you want to do that for her?

Dr. Harley says all the details should be put out on the table and then to never discuss it again. That is IF everything has been put out on the table.

She will recover better if you would tell her everything she wants to hear.

Also to add to what Herpapabear said.

Here it is Joseph's Letter

we had our 19 year anniversary 2 weeks ago.
we still see the marriage counselor, and working the program. things are going well but there are always issues... i know complaining is bad and it never does any good but you have to let it out sometime.

i am re answering questions in the notebook of all the bad stuff in detail. she feels i am leaving out details. so i am doing it with the marriage counselor. i read her the answers and if she feels i left something out i add it in. hopefully this will be the last time.

the big boss at work approached me as i have not participated in golf outings or dinners i should and basically said i understand that you are having a difficult time at home but this is your job. so i am planning on leaving my job in a month or so as this will always be a problem that will not be able to be worked out. my wife does not feel she should have to attend any of my events as it was my issue not hers. so no solution so far. currently dieing a slow death at work..

any other job in the same field would probably have the same requirements so it is quite the problem

the next issue would be what if i dont get another job. or come close to making what i was. resentment on both sides, i can hear it now ....you put yourself in this position....

then what if this marriage doesnt work with the added strain ....and she says no... no wife, no job, no house, nice.... stressful.....

we spend a tremendous amount of time together, but no sex. i mean really... am i that repulsive? am i that bad in bed? does she still hate me?

i am not POJAing anymore. i just agree to everything. yes i know .... it doesnt work... it doesnt make things any better in the long run.

i love her. im stressed. i feel that she will never trust me. i just want to be married to my wife.

Are you doing coaching through MB?

Have you heard this clip about complaining in a M?
Radio clip on complaining
Segment #2

Really no POJA? How do you expect to recover?

Here's some more clips. Please let us know what you think.
Radio clip on SF
Radio clip on too much or not enough SF
Segment #2

Also besides not following POJA you're deciding not to follow PORH, the policy of radical honesty?

Here's another clip of the importance of POJA and PORH.
Radio clip on POJA and PORH at 6:30

Also why don't you email the good doctor himself and ask? He encourages people who have questions about his program?

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

Are you just forgetting some things or is it trying to spare her feelings by not bringing up old garbage?


Why do you think your wife would be uncomfortable with you going on these golf outings? While you may, understandably, think she should just "get over it" that really isn't your call is it? It sounds as though you've made a very good effort at respecting her requests, to the point of nearly losing your job over it.


Understood. Is there any other field that you could get into?


Understood. Have you told her that?


You're probably not repulsive and it probably isn't about technique, rather the emotional connection may just be a bit thin these days. Do you expect all intimacy to lead to sex? Laughing a bit here, I'm sure you'd prefer it to lead that way, but just wonder if such intentions or hopes are written all over your face and kind of throwing things off a bit.


Are you afraid to disagree because you think she'll just throw in the towel?

Here is the article Dr. Harley wrote for you.

How to Make Your Wife Happy

Read this with your wife and see what she thinks.

Trust is an emotional response to certain conditions. The condition is you have to act a certain way for quite a long time. Either you aren't acting the right way, or it hasn't been long enough yet. Be patient; it will come (if you are acting trustworthy). And, believe it or not, you can have a good marriage without trust. The good marriage can come first, and the feeling of trust can come later.

One problem we often see is people wanting their husband or wife to trust them in bad situations. This is a mistake, since trust is an emotional response to people acting a certain way. An example: suppose I go on a business trip with a lady coworker, and ask my wife to trust me. I am acting in an untrustworthy manner, so it's a mistake to expect my wife to feel the feeling of trust when I act this way. I can instead expect her to suddenly start feeling DISTRUST if I even suggest such a thing!

Another example: I change my email account password and don't tell my wife. A couple days later she tries to get into my account and discovers she can't. She asks if I've changed the password, and what it is. Instead of telling her what it is, I tell her to "trust me." It's a mistake for me to expect her to trust me, since I'm not acting in a way that causes the feeling of trust. She will never trust me as long as I act like that!

Act right and be patient. It will come. In the meantime, work on the complaints that the two of you have about your marriage.

Here is Dr. Harley's article about this:

The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage?

Again, read this article with your wife, and ask her what she thinks.

It's scary that you think complaining is bad. Marriage Builders teaches that complaining is good. Criticism, disrespect, angry outbursts: those are bad. But complaints are good. Talking about the problems you both have, the unmet needs, the love busters, that is good!

Are you getting involved in learning about Marriage Builders? Are you using this program? Because you missed a core point, here.

I'm worried your counselor is distracting and contradicting Marriage Builders instead of helping.

You know, I skip about 70-80% of our work events because Prisca is not enthusiastic. Even though she's not here, it affects her if I go. So I check each time to see how she feels.

People just think I'm antisocial. I still get my work done, they still keep paying me, and it's all good.

Why does your boss think you "should" go to parties? Why is this part of your job description?

hi jerkyboy. i post to your wife, so when i saw your thread was posted to, i had a look. i was very touched by this post. i could hear the honesty in it.

but then we got to this post (red my comments):


sorry, bub. that's the way things work when you betray someone to the core. you can't give up. chickadee doesn't deserve that, and i don't think you really want that. you may be dismayed at the amount of work ahead of you, but it DOES pay off.

the point of MB is not "M at all costs." it is to create a romantic, harmonious M for BOTH of you. you are currently reaping your old crop. you need to resew your M so that a new crop can flourish. and don't ever ask again for your BW to "trust [me]." you aren't trustworthy, and haven't been for years. but...you can be earning your way back into her heart.

you guys haven't had sf for a long time, and it is the intimacy of sf that is the glue that holds a M together. why don't you get out the glue gun tonight and see how you feel after?

vets, if i'm off base about this, please let me know! i don't want to steer JB wrong, but felt moved enough to post to him.

Great clip on complaining.
Radio clip on how to complain

During our first few months post D-Day, the one thing that really got through to me sometimes was my H's admitting to me his deep need and desire for SF with me. He would tell me of his desire with this...look...on his face, as though he fully expected me to practically laugh derisively in his face. Yet he wanted this so much. To me, it showed humility.

Because he was willing to confess to me how deeply he longed for this connection with me, it touched a chord in me. I admired his openness. Something in his words and tone caused me to look at him a little differently, leading me to wanting SF with him, too.

All the while, he was absolutely dead-on with MB, adhering as closely as he understood and learned. So he was open with his affection and we did many RC things together. We spent a great deal of time together.

Letty's right. Many women DO want SF with their husbands, but post-A things are different. We wait for the first indication. We want that affection without strings attached.

While I'm not a long-term vet, I think it was an excellent post, Letty.

I'm sure it takes some longer than others to get back in the swing of things with SF, but if both parties are committed to the recovery plan, needs have to be met on both sides.

JB, it is EXTREMELY HARMFUL to your marriage to not POJA.

Letty's right: this is NOT marriage at all costs - and resentment is going to build up very quickly if you continue to just be a yes-man. If you do not have a marriage that is better than pre-affair, recovery will not work.

thank you, happy, for your kind words :O)


yes, i agree to. to get personal, i, of course, was repulsed inside by the fact that MY H had put his you-know-what in some slag, BUT...

when he reached out to me sf-ly, i responded to him, because of the same reason LWFH did. if he had never made that move, i probably wouldn't have due to my anger, resentment and disgust, even though sf is one of my top ENs. i still thank him for that today, because we may have ended up D 6 years ago if he hadn't. that was what held us together through all the hard, hard work.

so...how did last night go?

So what are you going to do for chickadee with this new NC from OW?

I spent about two hours pouring out my heart and falling all over myself in a post that got lost when I went up a page to look at a previous post. That is tough and tough to try to do again. So here goes.

I can�t seem to get it right. As soon as we start doing well we hit a bump and bang. One step forward two steps back. I am tired. My wife is very tired, I can see it in her face.
I am an open book, emails, phone computer text, constant communication� I am diligent in these matters.

Today I got a mass email from a woman I had an affair with. It was announcing her new email. It went to my work email and I told my wife right away. She was devastated. I am sure it was no accident. I have precautions in place with blocked numbers and emails but this was new address and it got through. I never used my work email or phone but after the affair was ended she tried to contact me through work. This led to a �cease and assist� letter that we sent her.

BLAH�BLAH�BLAH��WORDS �WORDS� it�s like some stupid day time drama am I am the king gorilla. IN THE END�.i hurt my wife� I hurt her in the worst way� I betrayed her..trust..love �her reality. I created the wound. The wound may heal but there will always be a scar, and outside forces can open that wound without batting an eye, with no regard to the pain it causes. I AM THE SCAR. I am the constant reminder.

My wife is on edge. She says�� I can�t live like this� I don�t blame her� who can? She knows it will happen again� the gorilla hangs over our heads ready to fall on us and crush us� a letter �an email �a phone call�how do you control the things you cannot control? I do not know what to do?...help

I REPEAT�.
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� Triggers. there is always something. as soon as everything is going great there is a trigger. its insane. crushing. heartbreaking. hurtful. painful. distance building. headache giving. dont want to eat. eat to much. all consuming. i see the pain in my wife and it is like a sledgehammer to the back of my head.

i think i said this before but, seeing my wife hurt is horrible. knowing i caused it, rips out my heart

i know she is thinking either stop the triggers or let her go and walk away because the pain will stop if i leave. it will hurt in the beginning but then it will be over and no more triggers. if i am there then there will always be triggers.
i am the cause of her continued pain. gorilla.

i want to start building our lives. it always seems within reach and that gorilla comes in our lives with his gun and pulls that trigger. BANG and i gave him the bullets.

i hate the gorilla�
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We are still doing the marriage builders course , counselor two times a week and speaking with Steve Harley. We are going through the whole Harley family� I wouldn�t be surprised if we were invited to thanksgiving this year. ( steve is very good, highly recommend him)

The gorilla is the same � different but the same

I am working on my new plan to make things better, but here I am again. Quit the job? Move away? I don�t know what to do.

It seems easy when it is someone else�s problem, impossible when it is your own�.

It has been a year and a half since D day. ..no one can dance with gorilla that long� eventually it will eat our hope and our souls�

�help�

I have read all the posts and working on my inner gorilla.

I am trying to create an environment so that hopefully my wife can love me.

Can you move? Is this something she's enthusiastic about? Dr. H does recommend a fresh start after an affair?

Have you brainstormed with her?

What does she need?

BTW good job on letting her know.

Have you seen this?
The critical importance of UA

Aldo what about a new job?

Can your work email address not be changed?

After explaining to the powers that be why it needs to be changed, can it still not be changed?

If not, a new job would definitely be a good idea.

JB,

Seriously look into and consider finding a new job... in a different state... several states away.

Get on it, NOW.

Ooooooooooooooops - and include your wife and PoJA the final decision.

The one thing you can control is that job and your residence.

I'd get a plan together to get out of there and start over. Sure, it's not what you planned financially but, well, what's the alternative? To live with the gorilla for another year or two or three?

You know the answer.

ususally i post to the site when things are bad and some event happened that knocks us done and i feel like crap. this morning my wife is asleep and i am at peace. there is nothing hugely emotional or drama like here and to most it might seem boring but this is a reality check to put things in perspective for myself and seek advice from the unknown masters that help us live our extrodinary lives.

life happens, its not neat and pretty. what defines me is how i react to the things that are thrown at us...understood that 99 percent of the time we create our own problems... especially as we get older.

when we are young and full of vigor, our head is full of dreams and goals. as we get older, some goals become fulfiled and some we realize are out of reach.... and staying the course to live the extordinary life we intended becomes lost.

so we make mistakes...big mistakes... ok ridculously huge mistakes... but we build and move on and become something great.

So this is my check, my road to repair, our road to our new marriage. i am sticking with two topics that are at the forefront of discussion these days.

TRUST - although there some legal complications, i have contacted a lawyer to have a post nup drawn up that basically says " in the case of infidelity on my part ever again, my wife would get everything" in the divorce. i can't tell you how real that is when you say that, yet i feel comfortable with it. isn't this a sobering reality check for both parties because you are putting everything on the line. so i am tring to move on with our new marriage. i am an open book. computer, phone, emails text, notification if i take $ out of the bank, constant communication....i'm out there... exposed..easily attainable, i am all in.

PROTECTION
I have followed the plan. ok i sruggled with giving up things, the phone, changing my work email, but this has been in place for some time. The struggle was more work related than anything else.

I cant control outside forces... no one can. i can only control my own actions and how i react to the given situation. things happen, in reality... something will happen again...so what... this is suppose to be our life now... working as a team. but my reaction will also reflect my wifes reacton. if we react like a team... we are a team... we are a marriage. It is hard to comfort someone that is angry. I will work on the comfort part.

sure we can move, i can get a different job. maybe we will... but in the end we are not cavemen sending smoke signals... the world is smaller and you can find anything on the internet. so we move and start our new lives and contact occurs... but we changed everything about our lives, job, friends, family, geography..... super devestating... all because of an email or a phone call. what then? you changed your whole life to avoid this....

In reality we could move pretty easily, and i could actualy get into it. but there is reality. It is about how we approach it and and how we react to the situations that are thrown at us.