There was an excellent show on 2-6-12 about lingering resentment after an affair. Harley makes the case that recovery has not been complete if resentment lingers.

Go to 9:00 into radio clip

continued here.....

edited to add: if you are too silly to hear these radio clips go to the archives and pull up the clips for 2-6 and you can hear the clips!

Link did not work for me.

Worked for me.

Very good points, all around.

Hmmmmm, gender-specific internet availability - very curious!

Can you MEN not figure out how to pull up the archive from 2-6??

Isn't that why we have women?

I've never had any problem with it! Personally, I'm surprised the women know how to get around it.

I did not assume you were talking about men when you said "silly," that's all I'm saying...

I know I know ... You can lead me to water...

It was a good clip. I specially love the kudos to the moderators.

I also love that he says anyone can do it, but you have to make the choice to.

I don't know why she goes around lettin out all the big I'm getting tired sighs.

MelodyLane acts like how hard she works around here.

I find Windows 7 has a hard time with the links. I use my Windows server to listen to everything. Works wonders!

Can you MEN not figure out how to pull up the archive from 2-6??

It will just have to remain a mystery, like how to iron a shirt, or why "Oprah" wasn't cancelled after one show!

HEE HEE!!!!!


I don't have time to comment properly on the rest of this - headed out the door.

Alls I will say is this: when you men can drive, put on makeup, and drink a cup of coffee all at the same time, THEN I'll believe you're as talented as we are!!!

LOLOLOL

This is a very interesting clip. I have a small problem understanding it though. In yesterdays's, Feb 7, radio show, Dr. Harley addresses a husband's independent behavior with gaming without his pregnant wife's enthusiastic agreement. Dr. Harley comments that if the husband continues the independent behavior, the wife will have a level of resentment that lasts for years.

Isn't a secret second life and an affair the mega-example of independent behavior? So, why wouldn't there be an expectation that there could still be resentment in the future?

AM

I can drive, operate my MP3 player, text my wife, and take notes on what I'm listening to all at the same time.

Whatevah.. ...

ArmyMama, can you go ask him on the weekendmforum?

That's right, SunnyD!!!

Actually, this is a very serious subject. My W discovered my A and other dalliances recently. Besides a long-term interest in porn (mostly on a computer), I had a short PA w someone that I worked closely with, over 10 yrs ago. She pretty much discovered my cheating ways with this person, within weeks after it ended. Since then, over the years, I've felt the need to see several prostitutes (about 9 times) and visited a few massage parlors for the full treatment. The first A, I really have no excuses for, the opportunity was there, and I did it. There was no love, maybe infatuation, but that person is long gone, and NC since. These more recent "events" I just felt a lack of SF from my W, and wandered out. Tried talking to her, but it didn't help much.
Now we've got a big mess on our hands. I've come clean on all of it, but she's pretty hurt. She has a long memory, and I'm at a loss as to how I'm going to fix this-I'm afraid she's going to hold a long grudge - she seems to be good at that. Any ideas?

TheDudester, please start your own thread on the Surviving an Affair forum in the Infidelity section - you'll get a lot of help there.

Wow, I seriously question if you are even a safe person to be with. You are a serious and dangerous serial cheater. What in the world is there here to save? What extraordinary precautions have you taken to ensure she is not abused by you again? Do you ever travel overnight?

Have you been tested for stds?

Let's get this thrad back on track.


Whatever?

I can multitask with the best of them.

In my house the laundry, house cleaning, cooking diner, and watching tv all get done at the same time as I supervise my wife in the aforementioned woman's work.

BUT...how many cars do you make crash in your wake???

See, you probably don't know because unlike us, you don't have eyes in the back of your head like we do: the ones that tell us when the kids are in the back seat cuttin' up and need a stern talking to!

That's just low. AND quite the lovebuster!

All fun aside, I can understand this question and the wondering behind it.

I've been thinking a lot lately on the fact that a BS cannot truly recover fully until they know the WS completely understands what he or she has put the BS through. (Well, not completely understands it - but understands the magnitude.) I think once there is closure on that issue, the resentment turns into something else: sorrow maybe.

Resentment - to me - implies bitterness. The difference of resentment vs grieving the past is an important distinction and hinges on the offending spouse being repentant, in most cases.

The FWS has a lot of deposits to make in the first couple of months - maybe even years - to help move things in the black so that the resentment isn't there.

Sometimes, however, resentment is a choice: something a BS doesn't want to let go of lest the WS forget just how bad he or she was - and the level of hurt caused. We (BS's) don't want them to forget because it lessens the criminal act, perhaps.

So, is resentment only a choice if it deals with infidelity? Yesterday's radio clip indicated that if the husband did not give up his independent gaming behavior, the pregnant wife would feel resentment in years to come, "Why weren't you there when I needed you?"

Isn't resentment a feeling and we feel whatever we feel?

Because these were back to back radio shows, I emailed the
question to the radio show.

I used to multi-task with the best of them. Now, I just look for my glasses and cell phone. And that is multi-tasking for me.

Ok, I think I migh get his point. He is saying if he DOESN'T GIVE IT UP, she will always resent it. The key is: he is still doing it. I THINK. I wish yoU would go ask him, AM.

Something I learned in my Interpersonal Communications class is this:

Something like resentment isn't a primary emotion. We tend to think of it as a feeling, but there are only a handful of true primary emotions: sadness, happiness, and anger. (I may be missing one.)

I'm paraphrasing here (obviously) and I don't remember the whole process (it's been a year) but basically, all secondary emotions/feelings can be traced back to the primary ones.

In relationships, it is important to get down to the primary emotion in order to work through issues. I would tend to say the resentment boils down to both anger and sadness, in various ways. Thus, resentment is something else. It isn't a primary emotion but a reaction TO the primary emotion - which is what secondary emotions usually are.

Does that make sense?

Now I want to go dig out my course workbook and textbook to explain this better....

Shaddup, theroad!

I emailed the radio show today. If they don't talk about it on the show, I will put a post on the weekend forum.

AM

Cool!

Learning how to multitask like a man.


Hobbies are to be enjoyed.
Hobbies are even better shared with your spouse and enjoyed together.
Hobbies are not to come before your spouse.

Hobbies are dangerous when they take precident over spouse and family.
You decide to get married and be a family man then live like a family man.

No room for a single man being married.

For recreational companionship, sometimes my H and I look for our glasses and cell phones together. It's a nice hobby we can share.

AM

Danger Armymamarobinson Danger

You are on the slippery slope acting less Venus and more Mars taking up single tasking.

and for good measure

I read the managing resentment and rebuilding trust chapter in the Surviving the Affair book: if both parties agree to the rules of Protection, etc, what if one is just lying? How do you know they're following the rules so the trust will return?

Simple time and vision.
For actions speak louder then words.
You will see if they are just all talk.

Though natural not to trust after an affair. Even some WS's get super paranoid due to low trust feeling in their WS gut that their BS is going out to do the same and live in fear that a RA may happen.

Also why a WS has to be transparent and hand over all passwords and cell because by the BS verifying NC the BS's fears slowly get displaced and trust slowly moves back to fill the void being left by the feelings of fear retreating.

Here is the question I asked Dr. Harley last week and his response:

Earlier this week (Feb 6), on the radio show you talked about recovery after an affair being incomplete if there is still resentment. On yesterday's show (Feb 7), you talked to Q about her husband's independent behavior of gaming while she is on bed rest for her pregnancy. You made a comment about her resentment potentially being there for years. Isn't an affair the ultimate independent behavior? If there is resentment about gaming, why wouldn't there be resentment years after an affair? How does resentment indicate that recovery is incomplete? What is different about the situation?

Dr. Harley's response:

"The difference between the resentment that follows an affair, and resentment for lesser forms of independent behavior is that the former demands �just compensation� while that latter usually doesn�t. In other words, an affair is so egregious that the only way a marriage can survive after one is for both spouses to make the marriage better than it�s ever been. That compensation tends to wipe out resentment. It�s been my experience that when a marriage is not greatly improved after an affair from what it was before the affair, resentment continues on indefinitely as it does with all independent behavior."

And when I asked whether it was all right to post his response, he replied, "That�s okay, but there are a few nuances to remember. One is to avoid talking about the affair or the resentment of the past will be brought into the present."

AM

Thanks AM - Dr. Harley is such a brilliant man. I believe this is why all lovebusters have to be eliminated. It is the "just compensation" to the other spouse but on a smaller scale. I always understood his saying, "Never be the cause of your spouses unhappiness" as the only way to fully eradicate resentment from the marriage. This can and will only be possible with POJA. Removing everything that can build resentment is strongly encouraged to move forward and POJA must take the spot to replace it all.

Otherwise both spouses fall into renter/renter mentality, which has proven to fail almost all of the time.

Tough~

Thanks for posting that, AM! That makes perfect sense...

I wonder if there is a point at which a BS has hung onto resentment for so long, that recovery will never be possible? I know the 2-year time frame, but that assumes both spouses have been actively engaged in recovery. I've read Dr. H's article on resentment here (in particular S.R.'s sitch and Dr. H's response)...but if the BS is no longer bringing up the A, but simply refuses to engage in R and meet the FWS's top ENs, despite efforts by the FWS...is that due to resentment or something else entirely?

WG-

It sounds like ambiguity to me. Its a thing I feel at times, I have to admit.

"Life has dealt me this deck of cards. I'm here to stay for many good reasons however theres a giant meatball that will be hanging over both our heads forever here. Her best efforts to lessen the burden at times work great ,make me feel strong secure almost like a man again yet that damn meatball.

I guess this is what is."

With this comes a sense a ambiguity. I've felt this perhaps your h has had his ambiguous moments too.

You can confuse ambiguity with resentment.

Just my opinion as usual.

Makes sense...although (maybe this is just semantics and NG can weigh in on our grammatical choices! ), perhaps it is not so much ambiguity as ambivalence...meaning the choice between two options (divorce or a recovered M) is impossible b/c the person in question keeps changing his mind. Fence sitting. Caught between a rock and a hard place. He feels ambivalence, and as a result I perceive that his behavior is ambiguous (I cannot interpret his behavior nor what he wants from me).

MSS, I read your thread, and I see your struggles...yet there are also some very positive signs in your sitch - you come here to vent and get encouragement; you post to try to help others; and you are putting effort into working the MB program with your FWW - trying to meet her needs, spending UA time together, etc. When you stumble, you take the advice given, you recognize where you need extra work. You made the decision to fight for your M, when previously you were almost dead-set on marking time until the kids graduated HS. By allowing your FWW to meet your needs and working on building a romantic M, by rights, your resentment, or ambiguity, or whatever we want to name it, will fade.

Perhaps the point to this discussion is that feelings follow actions, and that in some situations, a M like mine - struggling to begin with but now broken beyond repair by my infidelity - there is little one spouse can do to motivate the other to act in conjunction with the MB program.

I don't understand this question. Can you frame it a different way? Harley's point is that if just compensation has been made [including restored romantic love], resentment fades. That has been my experience.

In almost every case of lingering resentment on the boards, just compensation has not been made and love has not been restored to the marriage. MOST marriages do not ever recover from affairs because they don't take the necessary steps to effect recovery. Even when they KNOW about the steps to recovery, most couples absolutely REFUSE to take these steps. And then they wonder why they feel resentment 3 years later or experience repeat affairs.

An interesting personal observation that proves Dr Harley's point. My last marriage ended due to my XH's affair. To this DAY, I have deep resentment about it. But I have not a SHRED of resentment about my current H's affair. Not a shred.

The difference is going through recovery. My current H made just compensation and we have a romantic marriage. No resentment.

WPG I have been thinking a lot about this question of yours ... You and I are the opposite side of the equation ... I am BS and you are WS ... yet our spouses are doing the same thing.

In my case my WH is still in contact with the wh0re ... that is what I believe is keeping him foggy. There is also a part of me that is wondering if he really is leaving me because of me and wants a new wife and new life. He did mention he was interested in dating new women ... I asked him "What do they have that I don't have?" He replied, "A clean slate"

This is what I am wondering is the same issue with your husband. He doesn't care how much you have improved he wants someone with a clean slate ... this boils down to the fact he is unwilling to forgive.

He is unwilling to take your just compensation ... he may need years to realize you are legitimate before he views your just compensation as final payment.

Understand this has nothing to do with you ... this has everything to do with him. That is something we cannot control or will ever fully understand.

Resentment takes a long time to digest and a long time to eliminate ... it is the ugly reality of being human.

Keep up your excellent work. With him back in the home ... you are making great progress!!!

IDK, Mel...I can tell you without a doubt that love has not been restored to our M. He shows no evidence of romantic love for me, and I've got a pretty depleted LB$ balance at this point myself. By Dr. H's logic, then, it would appear that I have not been successful in making JC to my H for my infidelity. If I was, and if my efforts to meet his ENs were hitting the mark, then by this time, he should be making efforts to fill my ENs.

I would think that you really have only 2 logical options - you either 1.) follow the MB plan for rebuilding your M or 2.) Divorce. Anything in-between is a disaster. I want #1, but broken seems stuck somewhere in between. I can understand why, I just wish I could find that miracle that would help him go one way or the other. More than anything I want him to be happy, even if it means happiness with someone else who can help him to heal what I took from him.

I can't remember, Mel - with your first H, did you immediately file for D - did you decide you didn't want recovery? Was it an immediate decision? Or did it come after him refusing to make JC at all or offering inadequate JC?



But the problem is, it does have everything to do w/me, because if I hadn't had an affair, he'd have nothing to forgive. I started this. Could we have fixed our M if we'd found MB years ago? Maybe. I'll never know. It's his right to choose not to forgive, or aside from that, his right to choose not to reconcile. He's home, but he told me he didn't want to come home. I guess I don't understand this wierd limbo we're in, if there is anything more I can do to save my M. Why would he move back home and restart the clock again (where we live the spouses have to be separated for a year prior to filing for D), why not just stay gone and file for D when the year is up? Get the D, and go find that woman with the "clean slate."

PS - Tough, I noticed when your sig line changed, and I am so sorry Wayturd refuses to correct his recto-cranial inversion. He is missing out on all the growth you have made, and it is most definitely his loss.

That is because your husband refused to participate, though. So of course recovery is not complete. Recovery can't happen when one person leaves the marriage. He left the marriage.

I think you are misunderstanding what Harley is saying. He is referring to a marriage where both parties have made a decision to stay in the marriage, not one that has broken up. Your husband chose to leave. Many people do decide to leave and it does not matter to them if the WS is willing or able to give just compensation. In those cases, recovery won't happen by choice. Recovery can't happen against someone's will. Your H chose not to recover the marriage so it wouldn't have mattered what you did.


He divorced me with no looking back. But then, I didn't try to get him back.

You are right. He's here in body, but emotionally he has left the marriage. I guess I just keep searching for something to engage him back into the M, since he is here in the house. Dr. H had predicted he'd be out of w/drawal by now, and I just can't help but think that the reason he's not is something I am doing or not doing. And it is the prerogative of the BS to decide go leave the M, as I made my decision as the WS 3 years ago.

bump