Marriage Builders®
Posted By: Letty Letting Go of the Past - 03/06/12 08:45 PM
when you don't know about mb from the start?

my turn, in a nutshell:
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/06/12 08:55 PM
bloody computer!

(f?)ws had weekend fling with some girl he met on the internet 5 years ago. attended IC/MC for 6 months, during that time had trickle truth & withdrawal, but committed finally after that.

on one occasion about a year later some young girl (21) kept texting him jokes and things, and i said that's a no-go. we had a fight about it (oops) but in the end he worked out that he couldn't "be nice" to other people if it made me feel uncomfortable.

fast forward:
last thursday i found some jokey fb chats with one of his models (he's a photographer). i told him they made me uncomfortable, and that he would have to delete ay females from fb that weren't relatives, and keep strictly to business conversations with business people. seemed to go ok, then...

last night i picked up his phone and found several text message t said girl: "sorry i have to delete you off fb but my missus snooped and read our chats. she's so insecure." etc etc.

me today: am i done yet? made it very clear last nigh that even if the chats were indeed "innocent" the texts were not - they were insolent and disrespectful (i can put in the whole message if anyone wants), and his attitude was not acceptable. he grabbed me by the arm and tried to grab his phone. this is the first time in 17 years he's ever acted aggresive towards me. i had already forwarded all the messages to my phone, as well as the chats.

today i am seeing a lawyer for a consultaion for D, though it's not what i want at all. i have also requested a phone appt with dr harley, i have created a list of EPs, and installed spyware on our home computer.

not two weeks ago i mentioned how much i appreciated his openness in our joint access to everything, and now i'm a crazy,insecure "snoop." i don't know whether to be pissed off or cry. guidance, please? you guys are so right - action gives you such power!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/06/12 08:57 PM
forgot to mention that our lawyer is looking into a private polygraph, and i am working on Qs for it now. (we're not in the states; we don't have access to such services on demand.)
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/06/12 09:08 PM
here are my EPs, which i had drawn up BEFORE the drama last nght!i'm sure i'm LBing in a couple places; please help me refine them. feel free to 2x4 - i'm so angry, and i'm allowing anger to get in the way of progress i think.

i should probably add that i've been hanging around MB for several months now, though i didn't join until more recently. i've been trying toimplement the concepts, but was a little reticent, to my detriment. i've been foolish; now i want to be smart.

Extreme Precautions*

In order to create a sense of stability and security for my wife and my marriage, I will:

1. Delete all females from my facebook page except for relatives
2. Not real-time chat with any females I am not related to
3. Contact MM models only via MM, for which I have given my wife my password
4. Contact models not on MM via email, for which my wife has the password
5. When contacting models, only talk “business” - no personal conversations
6. Not accept any “old friend” contacts without my wife’s express agreement, and also give her my password for this site
7. Always think of my wife’s feelings, and consider that she is sensitive to any possible inappropriate talk due to my own actions, so I promise to consider her feelings first and always
8. Not engage in any texting conversations of a personal manner with any females. Business-related texts only.
9. I will not delete any texts sent or received on any phone or internet account without my wife’s express agreement
10. I will tell my wife immediately if any female attempts to “add” me to any account
11. I will tell my wife immediately if any female attempts to engage me in personal conversation, as well as tell my wife what I did to avoid the situation
12. I will not put anything before my wife as more important: not work, hobbies, photography, cars, etc. My marriage is the most important part of my life and it comes first.


As well as “not” do things, I also promise to:

1. I will learn about Marriage Builders and actively work the programme
2. I will read “extraordinary precautions” down at the bottom of the response to the letter in the link so I understand that this agreement is not about punishment, but about building a strong marital relationship that will create trust between my wife and I http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html
3. I will fill in the MB worksheets, particularly the Love Busters questionnaire so my wife knows what behaviours make withdrawals from my Love Bank, and can be avoided.
4. I will fill in the MB worksheets, and consider revising my Top 5 Emotional Needs to reflect what was missing earlier in our relationship.
5. I will complete #3-4 so my wife understands where she let me down previously, so she can make sure she meets my Emotional Needs and doesn’t inadvertently cause Love Busters
6. I will actively engage in making deposits into my wife’s Love Bank
7. I will consciously avoid making Love Busters due to “not knowing” what they are.
8. I understand that my behaviour is a direct result of my own decisions. I will not make excuses; instead, I will be 100% responsible for my choices and its outcomes.
9. I will read the 10 steps (scroll down after opening the link and look for the 1 - 10) for showing affection and do them each day so my wife feels the love I have for her http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5010_qa.html
10. I will make every attempt to understand the Policy of Joint Agreement, and follow the steps for making discussion of issues calm and rational
11. I will avoid being away from home overnight, and if it can’t be avoided, I will skype my wife while I am away.
12. I will make every effort to spend at least 15 hours a week in Undivided Attention time with my wife. I understand that this also means I receive 15 hours of her attention! UA time will be planned in advance, and I will actively engage in deciding what to do together.
13. I will discuss and begin a jointly enjoyable recreation activity so that we can have fun together doing something we BOTH enjoy
14. I will keep in mind that my wife does not consider chore time together time. Chores are in addition to Undivided Attention time.
15. I will accept that my wife loves me and allow her to show me she loves me without pushing her away.

This list may be added to and subtracted from at any time after POJA.

6 March 2012

*Amendments to stay in marriage/marital home:
1. I will submit to a polygraph test
2. I will attend joint MC with Dr Harley
3. I will sign a post-nuptial agreement drafted by our attorney
4. I will immediately learn about MB concepts and agree to actively work the programme starting immediately.
Posted By: alis Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/06/12 09:13 PM
Letty,

I would strongly consider that your husbands career may be the ultimate EP. For as long as he continues to work in that field (I am well aware of the MM website), I'm not sure you will ever truly enter recovery.

I know the MM site from the perspective of a few former female friends from back in my late teens/early 20's. It was pretty well known that they were desperate to get the modeling jobs no matter what, and they know that it can be easy to charm a man in his 50's.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/06/12 09:16 PM
good point, alis. he does have a "real" job - the photography is just extra $$. i've never minded the photography, even when we lived in the states and the models were wowsers. but then, i didn't have a reason to at that time. i think you are correct. i'll add that to the polygraph Qs: will you give up photograghy of people (think ok to stick with cars/bikes? most mags don't even accept pix w/girls nowadays)
Posted By: alis Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/06/12 09:17 PM
That sounds smart, Letty. I would also focus on getting into contact with Mr. Harley himself asap.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/06/12 09:28 PM
yes, i have sent in the form for an appt with dates/times and explnation of time difference (we are southern hemisphere). the site says USA/CAN, but i can ring the states for an hour no problem with our homeline plan as my family all live in the usa and i call them a lot. hoping that won't be a problem for dr h.
greatly looking forward to it. expensive, but what is $$ when your marriage is at stake? besides, if you need to take serious action, you may as well get the best. my experience in '07 with IC/MC was less than stellar.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/06/12 10:25 PM
Letty,

So sorry to read of your recent developments! It's obvious that your H has terrible boundaries with women.

I think everything you are asking is very reasonable - and absolutely to the photography limitations!

It seems we all start out reticent to do the really hard, tough love things to save our marriages but once smacked with reality, you realize it's the only way. The slap on the wrists just do more harm than good.

You are right to be concerned about your H calling you a snoop. Glad you called him out on it! Reign fire on him now before it gets any worse than it is. (Well, you know - in the MB way.)
smile

SO: have you read up on Plan A and Plan B? Carrot and stick...all that?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/06/12 10:36 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
good point, alis. he does have a "real" job - the photography is just extra $$. i've never minded the photography, even when we lived in the states and the models were wowsers. but then, i didn't have a reason to at that time. i think you are correct. i'll add that to the polygraph Qs: will you give up photograghy of people (think ok to stick with cars/bikes? most mags don't even accept pix w/girls nowadays)


Letty, I agree he has to give up the photography of women. That really is a threat to your marriage.

I am going to suggest a different approach, though. Your H has not bought into the idea of extraordinary precautions and thinks you are "insecure" and "jealous." He still doesn't understand the risk. My suggestion would be have him speak to Steve Harley and let Steve do the explaining.

Quote:
i think you are correct. i'll add that to the polygraph Qs: will you give up photograghy of people (think ok to stick with cars/bikes? most mags don't even accept pix w/girls nowadays)


This is not the type of question you would ask on a polygraph. A polygraph question would a true or false question. You should make it one of your conditions that he give up photography of women AND that he kill all opposite sex friendships as a condition of marriage.

The radio show today had an EXCELLENT segment on "jealousy" and "insecurity. You really must listen to it.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/06/12 11:05 PM
just came back from meeting with attorney. not very joyous. the trouble with living in another country is that their culture is so different. here it's very much a "oh well" society. while she was interested in MB, she found most of the process repellent. also, turns out i can do all my own paperwork. it's completely no-fault. also,i cannot remove him from the family home.

thank you, sunnyd and melody, for your comments. so far, i have 0 polygraph questions. i am going to listen to the radio show now, and will be back.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/07/12 06:54 AM
well, ws has agreed to all 5 conditions (polygraph, MC with Dr Harley, post-nup, actively work MB starting immediately, not photograph any women. period.) to remain in the home. he has also agreed to the EPs i posted earlier, amended to delete MM accout and not photograph anything with 2 legs rather than 4 wheels. i am plan a-ing as well as i can, trying to avoid AO (not easy!). we spent the evening working through the LB worksheets (again) and have, i think, a better understanding of what they are and how they appear.

i am feeling...bad. i feel that this is just a band-aid and that this whole thing is going to fall apart because he will not actually do anything that he says he's going to, and i'm going to have to pull the plug. so while i'm plan a-ing, i'm also putting a plan b into place. i am disappointed with the complete lack of support shown by those around me that are supposed to be here to help. culture shock strikes again. i can't get over that lawyer saying "all you need to know is whether he' willing to commit to the marriage. everything else is just details that don't help you." that sounds like the same kind of rubbish you get from ICs. my largest problem in this M is that h doesn't talk to me! (about anything important) i am going to try 2 different attorneys tomorrow (after all, a consult is just a consult), but wonder why i should bother, since you don't need an attorney to file for divorce here, should it come to that, and the required 2 year separation period does not need a lawyer. i'm hoping one of them will be more amenable to helping me and perhaps being an IM should i need one. i cannot have him removed from the family home against his will, nor can it be sold without his agreement. i'm not sure if these are good or bad things.

i could really use some help with poly Qs - have no idea where to start. everything i've tried so far is not suitable.

i'm also working on 6 ideas/topics to discuss at the 6 free MC sessions we get through the family court. i figured if noting, they could function as mediator as we try to have rational discussions. what do you think? i desperately need him to open up and tell me how he feels if we are to make any progress whatsoever.

i will not be avaiable to post at all tomorrow, but will be looking forward to hearing from your expertise!
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/07/12 01:28 PM
I would pass on the free court sessions. I've seen to many couples get bad advice so being you have a call set up go with the harley's first.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/07/12 02:56 PM
You have to remember, Letty, that lawyers are in the business of divorce and are not schooled in how to save a marriage. Oh, they may "believe" in marriage but they are certainly no one to be listening to - except for the few we have around here, of course! smile It's a shame that the one you saw spouted off advice that was so terrible! It would've been better to be quiet and stick to the area of expertise - the law!

I'm sorry you aren't getting the support you need.

You know what, it's a good thing for you to be skeptical right now rather than just being elated that H has agreed to your terms. That makes you wise - very wise. Do you know how many BSs are starry-eyed at the thought that they are not going to lose their marriage and then endure a false recovery because they didn't push follow through? You WON'T be one of those!

You need to determine some consequences if your H doesn't stick to the plan. Set some time tables and start planning your 15-20 hours of UA time. That time together will be the most important step right now. Because of what you've just gone through, you will need closer to 20 hours than 15. When you spend that time together, his sharing will become easier. I know HNHN made a big difference with my H - he finally understood why I needed conversation so much!

I wish I could help you on the poly Q's but I never went through that so I'm not as much an expert in that area as others around here. I can't think of anything other than basics:
Have you discussed meeting up?
Have you discussed sex?
Have you gone out?
Have you had contact?
Have you had physical contact?
Have you opened any secret email accounts?
Have you closed down x,y, and z?
Have you made it known that you will no longer photograph people?
Any secret facebook or other social networking accounts?
Stopped all conversations?

I agree that the free court sessions are useless and could really make things worse rather than help - sad, but true. (Unless this person was willing to work with MB principles.)
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/07/12 04:10 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty

i'm also working on 6 ideas/topics to discuss at the 6 free MC sessions we get through the family court. i figured if noting, they could function as mediator as we try to have rational discussions. what do you think? i desperately need him to open up and tell me how he feels if we are to make any progress whatsoever.


That would be a disaster that will cause more harm than good. Counseling couples in conflict together is a bad idea because the couples spend the hour lovebusting. That is a disaster in an already weakened marriage. These couples leave more angry and bitter than they went it. You would seriously be better off going out to dinner or getting a pedicure, those activities won't harm your marriage.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/07/12 08:11 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Letty

i'm also working on 6 ideas/topics to discuss at the 6 free MC sessions we get through the family court. i figured if noting, they could function as mediator as we try to have rational discussions. what do you think? i desperately need him to open up and tell me how he feels if we are to make any progress whatsoever.


That would be a disaster that will cause more harm than good. Counseling couples in conflict together is a bad idea because the couples spend the hour lovebusting. That is a disaster in an already weakened marriage. These couples leave more angry and bitter than they went it. You would seriously be better off going out to dinner or getting a pedicure, those activities won't harm your marriage.


Here is the link to Dr. Harley's articles about marriage counseling: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.html
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/07/12 08:23 PM
read this about poly questions

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2473858#Post2473858
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/08/12 03:04 AM
thank you all. i agree, IC is a time-wasting, money-wasting hole, and when we went through it 5 years ago i hated every last second. i felt really pressured into it from the lawyer. when they call to make the appt, i will cancel.

i still haven't heard back from the harleys - it's been over 24 hours now. i thought the form said expect a 24 hour turn around, but then, i imagine they get a LOT of requests, so i'm trying to wait patiently.

woke this morning feeling doomed. haven't heard from H all day since he woke me and kissed me goodbye. i know he i still angry at our confrontation over his behaviour, and that it is expected, but it sucks to cope w/it emotionally. plus, it really sucks that he's not following the 10 steps to achieve affection :O(

i did listen to the radio show on "jealous/insecure spouses" and had him listen also so we could discuss the topic. thanks ML.

i have snuck home today between appts because i needed your support; thanks for replying in my absence - i feel stronger now. i now have to run to my mammogram. what a banner day!

oh - thanks for the link to the polygraph Qs - great advice there! i don't think i'm going to be able to get one here. and i'm a little weary of hearing "that's such an american thing. we don't do that here."

enough whinging. i'm off to be squashed!

looking forward to more plan a tonight.

cheers, guys!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/08/12 05:51 AM
omg, i am sick to my stomach. how have you all managed to do this? i am not sure i can, not if my "prize" is a lying, cheataing [censored].

intercepted 2 texts today (have got to figure out how to put spyware on his cheap non android or iphone phone) where he 1) told one model that he had to remove her off fb, wouldn't be texting her either, but that i'm a crazy bitch he needs to get rid of "i'm ready to leave." another text to a male friend "she goes before my computer." he's been totally cold all day. after what we've been through in the last 5 years, and all the backbreaking work i've done...i may need to go plan b sooner than i expected, because the bank is running dry.

oh, he also knows i put spyware on the compuer! how, i don't know - he never knows how to do anything; i have to do everything for him. he may have taken it somewhere or had his nasty wife-cheating on friend around; it's only been 24 hours since i installed it, and i hid it pretty well for a noob like him. darn it all. now i can't trust what i find there - is he only doing what he WANTS me to see? is he going to a internet cafe? i'm kinda at the screw this point and i know it's too late for anyone to respond. i'm going to go plan a us some dinner for when he gets home and do my best not to vomit on him.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/08/12 04:25 PM
Letty,

So sorry you had to read that horrible stuff your WH wrote! I know how horrific that is. The thing is, you are the bad guy right now because you are holding him accountable. He is in wayward mode and obviously not committed to recovery. Yet, he doesn't seem to want to not be married either, now does he? At least you know where his head is at.

Did you just start plan A or is this something you've been trying to do since you started posting on here the past few weeks? I would think you want the shortest plan A possible (3 weeks) and go into Plan B. Start planning that now!

What about exposure? I know you said previously you don't have a lot of support. Is there anyone you can expose your H's cheating ways to that would influence him for the better? Can you find out if this OW that he's chatting with has a boyfriend or is married?

I wouldn't even worry about the polygraph at this point - your H isn't even committed to recovery.

(((((((((BIG hugs!))))))))))))))))))
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/08/12 07:17 PM
hey sunny. yes, i've been plan a-ing for the last couple of weeks, but don't think i've been doing a good job of it. the second half of last night went well: provided lots of affection, and got several kisses and spooning to go to sleep last night. how i wish he would TALK to me! i have a good plan for this weekend as well.

i have started drafting an exposure letter to send to all his friends and my family. he doesn't have any family. i don't know about exposing to ow's possible b/f - she never reciprocated any of his advances, only deflected, but...maybe i can find out, anyway. i guess if anything he needs to know someone's tried to poach her (and that she wasn't poachable).

i will post the letter when i can, hopefully today. i will do it on monday after i've had the opportunity to really plan a this weekend.

how long after that should i wait to plan b? i had an email from the harley's this morning (thanks mod!) and had to resend the request for counselling, so it probably won't be until next friday. i am loathe to plan b before then, unless i simply can't take it any more. last night i was able to call a woman i know and vent, and that helped me significantly so i didn't AO when he got home, and instead we had a relatively pleasant dinner. we also worked on revising our ENs. surprise, surprise, conversation is now at the top of his list. but having one with him is like pulling teeth. he either "grills" me: "what did you do at work today? why did that happen? what did you say?" or i try to speak with him and get one word answers and have to keep pulling (pushing?) to engage him. he does talk with me about trivial stuff, but nothing from the heart/about our life.

i've got work now. thanks again :O)
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/08/12 08:30 PM
Sample exposure letter. recommendations please!


Dear FOJ
I am writing to ask you for help. As you know, J and I have been married for 16 years. I love him very, very much and want our marriage to continue.

(MB forum: I include this next part as it was never exposed originally) J had an affair with a woman he met on the internet 5 years ago. We went through 18 months of hell before he decided he wanted to commit to the marriage. During this time, he was using several different email accounts, a fake name, and even meeting women here in XX with wine and flowers before he went to CAN to consummate the relationship he’d cultivated with XX. Following which he came home, looked me straight in the eye, lied, then proceeded to expose me to possible STIs. He then spent 6 months in marriage counselling, telling me how much he loved me and wanted to be married to me, while carrying on long distance with XX. Then, it seems he was able to commit to the marriage, and I thought we finally had an honest and open relationship.

I tell you this ONLY so that you can understand that when I find J chatting online with single women, about birthday suits and bubble baths and buying her crotchless panties (paste in messages), which he later tries to tell me is “just a joke,” I not only don’t think it’s funny, I am terrified for the state of our marriage. Especially when later he tells me he loves me and would do nothing to hurt our marriage, he tells OW (paste in message where he says he will still text her and I’m a sneaky, insecure b). I have proof of everything I have stated here. I am responding the way your own wife would if you were having such conversations with single women after having already once committed adultery. He is currently telling me that he loves me and wants our marriage, while simultaneously telling his friends (paste text where he says he’s done and will leave me).

I love J very much and have worked very, very hard to keep him happy at home. I do not expect you to “take a side” or “tell/check up on him.” I only ask that you tell him his behaviour is wrong. That a married man does not tease and flirt with single women online or lie to his wife. Our family needs to stay intact. He needs to commit to us. Please help me preserve our marriage by asking him to stop his behaviour.
Sincerely,
Letty
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/09/12 05:47 PM
I'm not as good as the vets who've been around longer on the letters. My first though is in your last paragraph. I would change that business about taking sides to not expecting them to side between you but to side FOR the marriage and provide support.

My exposure letter was not as detailed - was more succinct. I didn't give specifics but stated I could provide evidence. You want to sound calm, confident, and rational in your letter - not like you are wanting revenge or just a jealous wife. In that regard, you may want to shore it up to be more professional. Not that it is terrible - or sounds irrational - just not sure it needs all the detailed stuff. (That could be for follow up, if needed.)

I'm hoping those with a little more experience can pop in soon. smile

As for when to go in Plan B...that depends. Although, if you have already been in Plan A for a few weeks you don't want to be in Plan A much longer, that's for sure! For women it it typically no longer than 3 weeks.

You said your H was aware of your spyware. Have you seen any more evidence of his goings on? If he is indeed aware, he will just feed you what he wants you to see. I guess I'm wondering why on earth he would want you to see texts calling you a crazy b@#$* and that you go before his computer, etc...
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/09/12 07:52 PM
thanks sunny. through my tears, i did make one mistake on the texts. it was "she goes before my camera." no computer. i guess my brain was expecting that instead!

will work on the letter. since it's going to all married, male friends, i thought that the background was important, because it provides context for my current fears, but if the vets think i should take it out, i will. will take your advice about the last bit.

(sigh) i don't know how he knows about the spyware. i just had to show him how to adjust the brightness of the screen, so how could he know? unless he looked in the history. i was stupid enough to think it wouldn't show up there (duh). have now deleted all traces, but i cannot access the online page to switch from free to paid version (expires today). everytime i try, nothing happens. have tried different browsers, etc. think i'll go stick the dongle into the main computer, which isn't currently connected, and do it from there.

on the upside, plan a went well yesterday. and our appt is thursday morning (6.30am!). greatly looking forward to it.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/10/12 04:41 AM
Here is the link to the recommended Exposure Letters:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2558474
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/11/12 07:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
thanks sunny. through my tears, i did make one mistake on the texts. it was "she goes before my camera." no computer. i guess my brain was expecting that instead!

will work on the letter. since it's going to all married, male friends, i thought that the background was important, because it provides context for my current fears, but if the vets think i should take it out, i will. will take your advice about the last bit.

(sigh) i don't know how he knows about the spyware. i just had to show him how to adjust the brightness of the screen, so how could he know? unless he looked in the history. i was stupid enough to think it wouldn't show up there (duh). have now deleted all traces, but i cannot access the online page to switch from free to paid version (expires today). everytime i try, nothing happens. have tried different browsers, etc. think i'll go stick the dongle into the main computer, which isn't currently connected, and do it from there.

on the upside, plan a went well yesterday. and our appt is thursday morning (6.30am!). greatly looking forward to it.


Check out the link HDW provided, most definitely! I guess the background would need to be considered in the context of which the people that you are exposing to need details...but my thoughts are that you can always provide those specifics later, if need be. Sometimes short and to the point makes you sound more competent.

I was wondering what you might have found (if anything) through the computer/phone spyware since your H apparently knows about it. ???

It makes sense that he said camera instead of computer... but either way, it just shows his wayward thinking at that time.

So, with Plan A going well do you think H is just laying low right now or what?

What's the appointment for on Thursday? With the lawyer??
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/12/12 03:20 AM
Thanks H, for the link. We haven't had internet at home now for several days; peeving me off! customer service in this country is practically non-existant. i am hoping very much our home phone will be re-established by wed so we can make the all imp call on thurs!

sunny - i am not very good at plan a. i don't know how attractive i made marriage to me over the weekend, as i seemed to cry a lot. however, we spent the entire weekend together, beginning friday after work, and it was lovely. lots of top 5 ENs being met on both sides. we gardened together, worked around our house together (installed a "big cat" door), listened to some MB radio, went for a drive, went to a car show, SF (i pulled a neak after dinner, lol), etc, then last night reviewed what needs were met, and specifically HOW.

we had a very open and honest conversation sat night, which was a revelation to me. he so often doesn't talk to me about anything important, and it was lovely to hear him speak, and speak honestly. i was able to explain that i don't get angry as sad and frustrated at what an effort it is to communicate with him, and he told me that while on thursday he was VERY angry with me for giving him an ultimatum, after some thought he could see how it wasn't "you got up and decided to really make me mad" but a progression of behaviour that *resulted* in the ultimatum.

we spent a lot of time talking about ENs, and love languages, and reading the case studies. i feel inside that he is maybe starting to "get" it, but i don't want to be all pollyanna about it. i am still keeping the poly on the table, among other things. we are both looking forward to our appt with dr harley this week, even if it is at 4.30am our time! i am continuing plan a during this time, working on improving it each day. i am hoping that plan a will progress to...recovering? but i am still organising a plan b with a target date.

re the spyware. i am having a lot of trouble with it, and our inconsistent internet service is not helping. i don't know if he really "knows," or if he made it up. i am able to access all his accounts with his passwords (we use lastpass to create and store unique passwords), and there has been little contact with females - the only female he spoke to was a model who asked about a shoot in another city in two weeks, and he texted her back that he was unable to do it. he also told me about it. i am going with him on that trip - we have determined that as much as we both enjoy the PD we get out of travelling for work-related issues (and that one would have been a paid photo shoot), it's not worth the potential damage to the marriage. we looked at our schedules for the next 8 months, and planned mini-breaks around the trips so that we can accompany each other. in the meantime, no females.

sunny, can you tell me how you managed to transition from A busted! to recovery? did you do the online programme? i plan on doing that; it's a pity we can't attend a programme in person.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/12/12 08:26 PM
If you're going to plan A, you've got to commit and be all in! Do you know all the intricacies of it? I assume you have read up on it but there are some good posts around about what it is and what it isn't...and about carrot/stick, etc...

But...very good to read that a lot of ENs were met over the weekend! smile And excellent work on the appointment - I had forgotten you mentioned getting the counseling appt through MB. AWESOME!

As far as H opening up - I have found that it comes much easier when you are building that real intimacy the MB program produces. Things don't come down to who's right/who's wrong anymore when there's a disagreement and you get to know each other in such a better way than ever thought possible...and the sharing becomes natural rather than forced.

In my situation, once the affair was busted it didn't take long for the recovery process to begin. The exposure ended the affair within days and plan B was also only days for me...then H was willing to meet my terms for recovery to begin. He moved back home about a month after I exposed the affair and we began the MB at home program: the workbook along with Lovebusters and His Needs Her Needs. We had CDs to listen to as well as the workbook and books. When you "do it yourself" rather than through the online program you don't get the personal counseling, but it has been effective for us. You have to be disciplined enough to actually do it though and not let it fall by the wayside because the crisis is "over" and no one is holding you accountable.

There used to be a weekend you could attend but Dr. Harley no longer does those.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/13/12 07:12 AM
it's the "being strong" that's the hard part for me, as without home phone/internet i haven't been able to lean on my sister or mother, and it would be wonderful to be able to just ring and be able to vent, then buck up and get on with it. but it is getting easier by the day. i have no idea, though, how women with an h in an active a manage it, though it is easier to take action than it is to sit back and hope!

things appear to be going well here. he is responding well to plan a, resulting in more carrot than stick. he is even returning ENs. i got several texts today while at work, and a dinner plan before i'd even had lunch. i've always pretty much ignored my mobile before; it was often uncharged or under my car seat or whathaveyou, but since neither of us has access to a regular phone during the day it is a great little all day helper!

we've got a lovely weekend planned as well - picnic and evening at a sandy beach (most of our beaches are rocky) before our summer runs out.

i am going to purchase the MB online programme for us to have ready for thursday. tonight we're working through the last 2 basic concepts he's not familiar with: giver & taker and 3 states of mind.

you know, after 4 good years, it was this last year that has been rocky. i had 2 surgeries back to back, and he was great for my 3 months of recovery (and immobility), but after going back to my full time job, i was exhausted all the time and had very little energy for meeting ENs, which i think was my problem and fault. i kept thinking about it, you know? but i couldn't seem to work up the energy. how terribly i would have felt if i were on the other end of that! and, no surprise here, neither one of us talked about it. i don't want that to ever happen again. it is hard to keep up when you're several years down the road, but let me stand as an example of the dangers of letting your relationship slide, no matter what the extenuating circumstances are.

ok, i'm off. catch you later!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/13/12 03:50 PM
I understand what you mean about letting things slide. Just keep in mind that even if you did slide, your H should have coped in better ways rather than chatting up OW!

I know when I look back at the pre-crisis marriage I had it's easy to see the ways in which I needed to be a better wife - hindsight (and MB knowledge) being 20/20. It still doesn't excuse H's behavior though.

I'm sure you're not blaming yourself, but I just wanted to remind you that at the base of both of our H's bad behavior is their terrible boundaries with the opposite sex. That HAS to change for recovery to truly happen! And...there needs to be a switch from Renter to Buyer in the marriage.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/13/12 07:18 PM
I agree with Sunny. While you can and should take responsibility for your pre-A marriage, the affair is 100% on your WH's shoulders.

Are you in recovery now? You wouldn't be in Plan A and recovery. One or the other. Plan A would happen if there was an ACTIVE affair, or if you were trying to get your WH to commit to recovery.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/15/12 04:12 AM
hi scotty. trying to get H to commit to recovery. i think we may be there. i find the sitch kinda confusing, myself.

ok, so had 1st appt with steven harley today. mostly an introductory thing, but he was on w/H for a loooooong time, and just clarified some things w/me. basically, H has to get off his duff and take responsibility to be in the programme or not, and he can action this be educating HIMSELF with MB concepts. he did not discuss our questionnaires with me.

getting up at 4.15am to have this appt was not easy, nor was corralling 150 male high school students for the rest of the day after that (though driving H's new camero just imported from the states did give me a certain amount of cachet today). but it was worth it, i hope! we'll see, i guess, when H gets home from work, though i have to remember that he will be as knackered as i am.

as it's thursday night here, i am very eager for the weekend and our beach day. H is working very hard; 10 hour days and saturdays right now. and H is NOT an engineer! lol.

sunny, you said that SF helps with the going back to sleep thing. but that would mean I'D have to wake up! uhuh j/k!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/15/12 02:11 PM
I hope your H was receptive to what he heard from Dr. H, Letty. That will tell you a lot about where his head is at. Just be prepared for whatever reaction you get from him.

A: totally receptive (which would be great!)
- make sure actions follow words! Set a plan.

B: totally unreceptive and defensive - not that unusual after being called on the carpet.
- don't overreact to this; decide now how to handle it.

C. Apathetic or midstream acceptance - he still is not 100% on board with wanting to change or seeing the need to but is trying to appease you so you won't take further action.
- again, don't overreact; decide how to handle it.

How long do you want to continue to plan A if H is not all in?

Remember, your goal here is an exceptional marriage: one that makes you feel safe and is fulfilling for both of you.

If you are too tired to handle H's reaction to this, put off the conversation when you are rested and rational. smile I know I would feel off getting up that early! Kudos to you for making it a priority!!! And on the new car! smile

As for the sleep issue, I think it's easier for men to be woken up than women for SF, lol. Be glad your H isn't an engineer - all the literalness can drive one mad at times!!! LOL
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/24/12 11:25 PM
sorry to take so long to respond. i wrote a semi-lengthy reply last weekend that apparently disappeared into the ether! i've had a big crisis at work, and am still dealing with the drama queens who can't cope, and when home want to devote my time to UA and EN meeting, so little time to be online.

got up early on sat morning to have 2 appts with dr harley yesterday. i'm hoping that our next one can be a bit later, as i'm just not ready to converse at 6.30am after what had been a full and stressful week (work related). this time i'm going to have my questions written down so i know what i want to say.

also, our books arrived, and i am halfway through both surviving an affair and HNHN. some good stuff in there, but something bothers me, and it bothered me in my appt yesterday too. i'd like to hear from some others about this. it's pretty personal, but it's something that's bothered me for many years.

it seems to me that there is still, in this day and age, an outdated notion that all men want is sex, and that women don't really care, unless they are "in the mood." now, i've never had a houseful of kids, nor did i have to work full time while raising a child, so maybe i'm unusual. but...sf is one of my top 3 ENs. i have spent my life reading articles about how women need to meet men's sf needs, and thinking the whole thing is hogwash and wondering when men would get the message that women value sex too! the only time i've been with a man who wants sf more often than me was with my first love in my early 20s (we were the same age). of course, i'm looking at this issue from the perspective of an age 50s H, rather than, say, a 32 yo H. but i'm a bit disappointed with this line of thinking. while i can appreciate sf for the UA time, and affection, it is the sf itself that is important to me. perhaps i have a high level of testosterone? dr h quetione me over it yesterday, certain that i was using sf as a substitute for other ENs, and he was rather surprised that it is the physical side, not the emotional/mental one that is my primary goal with sf.

anyhow, i doubt that's a very clear paragraph. (sigh) i just don't know.

anyhow, in other news, our beach picnic last weekend was absolutely magical. i read from the 5 love languages on our drive out, we played checkers and waded in the tide, had our picnic, then watched the stars come out. it was amazing. (and H had some needs met too :O) it wasn't so amazing when we discovered we were locked into the beach parking lot, but instead of being angry (h can often be a hothead) we just continued trying to name constellations while waiting for security. we've both talked about it all week as a lovely day.

there's been an awful lot of EN-meeting going on, on a wide scale, not just bits & pieces. i'm feeling really positive, and have hope that this will be a real recovery and not a false one, but i am not ready to put all my eggs in one basket just yet.

on the funny side, here's a little anecdote. on thursday i had a pretty bad day at work. when i got home, H wasn't home yet, so instead of moping i thought i'd turn the energy into action. i got dolled up, put on a little something i'd bought from the hooker shop in hollywood, boots & all. i heard the truck pull in, put myslf into an attractive position, then...i heard the lawnmower start up! lmao, note to self: next time, be a better communicator. a note on the porch saying "come upstairs for a surprise" may get me better results!

back to work tomorrow and can't wait for the drama to end on thursday, do or die. hope y'all have a great week. i will try to pop in more often, but don't really want the tech at work to read all this stuff!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/25/12 08:22 PM
Well, it sounds like your H is on board with the MB program, Letty and that's great!

I don't blame you for not wanting work associates to be privy to your personal life. Good thing you think about those types of things. Many people do not. Even if the techies don't necessarily go snooping, they basically can know everything you ever write if they so choose. Sorry work is such a downer right now. Sounds like it is short term though, so that's good.

I laughed when I read your Thursday scenario! LOL

So, where exactly do you stand at this point? Are you still in Plan A or do you feel the two of you are now in recovery? Has he met all your conditions for staying in the marriage? Have you made sure he is not in any contact with other women and has shored up his boundaries? That's very important for not having a false recovery! No more badmouthing you to his friends?

Is H also doing the phone consultations or just you? Have the two of you done the worksheets?

As for the SF, I understand what you are getting at. I consider myself pretty high drive as well. In fact, when H read HNHN he got a little defensive over the SF issue saying, "Why is it everyone thinks men just want sex all the time. It isn't true." I had to point out to him that it might seem lower on his need list than with other men because we have always had SF very frequently and I am usually up for it as much as he is. When you're not suffering from the lack of something you want, there really is no conscious thought of making it a priority to be met. A man in the desert cries out for water while a man surrounded by fresh water doesn't think twice about needing it.

Now, it's an interesting thought that you may be replacing other needs with SF. I am no expert and I've wondered about that too: if my high drive is my psyche trying to get what it needs in this way. But, like you, it seems my drive is as much about the physical as anything else. It just isn't something I think too much about because hey - why complain! It works for me - works for H - and we can focus on other needs since we're both happy in that dept. smile

Now, if your H isn't as high drive as you are, then I would consider it an issue. Otherwise, my thoughts are just to focus on other top needs.

Something to consider: Emotional Needs as described in the MB program, in my view, have a deeper meaning than what one might normally consider in the context of the definition of "emotional." I used to think an "Emotional Affair" was an affair that was romantic and lovey-dovey and just not yet consummated. In actuality, an Emotional Affair doesn't necessarily have to be lovey-dovey. It just has to meet a deep need that someone has with or without all the flowery stuff.

For instance, you may have a woman whose husband works a lot. Lets say she really is not getting help with the kids at all. Along comes "Ben" who tosses the ball with little Johnny and Sam every afternoon - allowing the woman to get a much needed break. Of course, Ben's love bank starts to fill pretty quickly and the woman's husband starts to pale in comparison.

This need for FC of the woman's may not sound all that "romantic" in nature - but is a top need. We wouldn't normally think of FC as an EMOTIONAL thing - would we? Well, not without the MB program we wouldn't. Because Ben is meeting this need instead of the woman's husband - she's in danger of crossing some boundaries. It's because the ball throwing, FC meeting shows care and commitment; not because the ball throwing, FC meeting is any kind of turn on.

Same thing with the DS support need a man may have. It speaks to something deeper.

Therefore, it could be that the high drive - even the physical positivity gained - speaks to something deeper or other EN's even if it *seems* just physical and not "emotional."
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/27/12 03:05 AM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Well, it sounds like your H is on board with the MB program, Letty and that's great!

i certainly hope so. i can see from the computer that he has been veiwing the MB videos each day, which is a good sign, but i'm feeling a little once bitten, twice shy. this is not to say that i'm not open to receiving ENs met from him, just that i'm not ready to toss plan B in the bin just yet.

I don't blame you for not wanting work associates to be privy to your personal life. Good thing you think about those types of things. Many people do not. Even if the techies don't necessarily go snooping, they basically can know everything you ever write if they so choose. Sorry work is such a downer right now. Sounds like it is short term though, so that's good.

sadly, i don't have a very good relationship with our tech, so i'm always wary of what i'm doing/typing at work. otoh, you are right about other people. i know of oe man who both surfs dating sites and chats online with those women at work. geez.

I laughed when I read your Thursday scenario! LOL

the best part about that was i was able to laugh it off! we have a plan for this weekend to help fix that up - going to hike out to a local waterfall and enjoy some outside time. no, i won't be wearig the stripper clothes!allergic to mosquitos doh2

So, where exactly do you stand at this point? Are you still in Plan A or do you feel the two of you are now in recovery? Has he met all your conditions for staying in the marriage? Have you made sure he is not in any contact with other women and has shored up his boundaries? That's very important for not having a false recovery! No more badmouthing you to his friends?

excellent question. this is at the top of my things to discuss next appt with steven harley. i feel we are in recovery, not plan a. he has met conditions, and has shored up his boundaries. we had a discussion about the badmouthing, and how i felt about it. he said it was a way of lashing out with his anger. i pointed him in the direction of "if you hadn't been doing anything you shouldn't have, you wouldn't have been angry. it appears one of his friend is teasing him over this, but he's taking it with good humour.

Is H also doing the phone consultations or just you? Have the two of you done the worksheets?

yes, we both have appointments, have done the worksheets before each apt, and discuss afterwards.

As for the SF, I understand what you are getting at. I consider myself pretty high drive as well. In fact, when H read HNHN he got a little defensive over the SF issue saying, "Why is it everyone thinks men just want sex all the time. It isn't true." I had to point out to him that it might seem lower on his need list than with other men because we have always had SF very frequently and I am usually up for it as much as he is. When you're not suffering from the lack of something you want, there really is no conscious thought of making it a priority to be met. A man in the desert cries out for water while a man surrounded by fresh water doesn't think twice about needing it.

lucky you! i have, in the past, often times felt like mrs roper! (<--showing my age) i have learned to be creative in getting him there. wink

Now, it's an interesting thought that you may be replacing other needs with SF. I am no expert and I've wondered about that too: if my high drive is my psyche trying to get what it needs in this way. But, like you, it seems my drive is as much about the physical as anything else. It just isn't something I think too much about because hey - why complain! It works for me - works for H - and we can focus on other needs since we're both happy in that dept. smile

i can see that it is a way to meet feeling close and having UA time, but i just want it, lol.

Now, if your H isn't as high drive as you are, then I would consider it an issue. Otherwise, my thoughts are just to focus on other top needs.

Something to consider: Emotional Needs as described in the MB program, in my view, have a deeper meaning than what one might normally consider in the context of the definition of "emotional." I used to think an "Emotional Affair" was an affair that was romantic and lovey-dovey and just not yet consummated. In actuality, an Emotional Affair doesn't necessarily have to be lovey-dovey. It just has to meet a deep need that someone has with or without all the flowery stuff.

For instance, you may have a woman whose husband works a lot. Lets say she really is not getting help with the kids at all. Along comes "Ben" who tosses the ball with little Johnny and Sam every afternoon - allowing the woman to get a much needed break. Of course, Ben's love bank starts to fill pretty quickly and the woman's husband starts to pale in comparison.

This need for FC of the woman's may not sound all that "romantic" in nature - but is a top need. We wouldn't normally think of FC as an EMOTIONAL thing - would we? Well, not without the MB program we wouldn't. Because Ben is meeting this need instead of the woman's husband - she's in danger of crossing some boundaries. It's because the ball throwing, FC meeting shows care and commitment; not because the ball throwing, FC meeting is any kind of turn on.

Same thing with the DS support need a man may have. It speaks to something deeper.

Therefore, it could be that the high drive - even the physical positivity gained - speaks to something deeper or other EN's even if it *seems* just physical and not "emotional."

yes, i understand what you mean here.
they are a great opportunity to talk about boundaries (tv especially! i can hardly bear to watch private practice, they are so unprofessional even without including their poor relationship skills! though it did get interesting or a sec when addison's friend asked her if she was just the kind of person with poor boundaries, and if that was why she could never retain a committed relationshp.

well, the trying time will be over in 2 days, hooray! soon it will be the school holidays and i am sooooo looking forward to them! but tonight is date night - dinner & a movie. i feel so decadent seeing 2 movies in 2 days (the other was for work).

have a good week ;-)




PS: i typed this on my h's netbook; apologies if i missed any letters out. the keyboard is HORRIBLE!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 03/30/12 02:56 PM
I apologize for missing your entire post for a few days here! Sometimes I sign in from my phone and not everything pops up as clearly on there. Then, when I sign in via computer, it doesn't show as having new posts.

Anyway, I'm glad things are going so well!

I laughed at the Mrs. Roper comment, lol.

Well, now that the few days have passed and the weekend is here, you should have plenty to look forward to. smile

Good job on keeping up with the program!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/05/12 06:19 AM
well, here it is, another weekend. i'm afraid i'm suffering from end-of-term exhaustion and winter blues. a southern calfornia girl does not transplant well to a country where it is cold and gloomy half the year. it's been raining all week, with no end yet in sight. at least it's not freezing (yet).

appt w/SH last weekend was informative. i got smart and emailed my questions inadvance. the most important one was "are we in recovery?" he said yes. he also said it would still be work. and it is, but at least it's positive work.

H got himself a stern talking to over responsibility and whose it is. that straightened him out some. we've had some good converations this week going over our ENs and LBs, though i'm feeling a little disgruntled about a couple of those.

didn't get out to the gorgeous place last weekend due to weather, but did go bowling, which was heaps of fun. as soon as he's out of the shower, we'll be planning the 4 day weekend we have thanks to easter. our daughter has decided not to drive down due to the bad weather, so it'll be just the two of us. maybe we should get a "big pig" and consume it? (lol, the big pig is a 15lb chocolate "rabbit" - gross, eh?)

we've another appt at 5.30am tomorrow; the one before the last we can afford. i've read SAA (alone, but highlighted to give to him) and HNHN (together). i guess my Q tomorrow will be where to from here?

had better pop off. i'm feeling very melancholy today, and don't want it to throw a rod into what's going well. have the next two weeks off, so will be able to pop in more often.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/06/12 05:36 PM
Sorry you have the blues, Letty. It happens to me at certain times and it is not easy! H has done a good job helping me if I tell him I'm having a down day. It typically happens to me when I'm hormonal.

Good for you guys for sticking with the counseling! How did H take the stern talking to? Was SH saying H wasn't taking responsibility for past actions or in recovery or overall?

How are you handling the disgruntlement? Is this something you want to discuss? I know we've gone back and forth a little on my thread about a few things. In fact, since you are officially in recovery (YAY) perhaps you want to move your thread?

Keep working the program. Keep being open and honest.... you're doing a great job!

And I say YES to the 15 lbs of chocolate! LOL Although, funny story: we aren't allowed to eat chocolate bunnies in my house. H says it's cruel to eat the bunnies. We have to go with chocolate eggs instead. LOL (long story!)
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/10/12 01:14 AM
news here, and none of it good. instead of rehashing a very painful weekend, i'm just posting the email i sent to my mother yesterday, with some further comment below it.

>>dear mom,

i'm sorry, i wasn't awake enough to really talk. i'm sorry to tell you things are not fine at all. i have left FWS and will be filing for a separation order tomorrow. i am not currently at home; i am staying with a friend today/tonight, but moving back home tomorrow, packing up his stuff, changing the locks, and filing for a separation order from the family court.

since FWS has gotten back into photography, he has communicated inappropriately with a young woman who had modelled for him. when i told him i didn't think that was a good idea, he moved the conversation off facebook to texting on his mobile. needless to say, when i discovered this, our relationship was set back to square one. i was willing to try to work through his problems/issues/whatever, and we have just spent 5 weeks in counselling with a well-known USA doctor, at the Marriage Builders center in Minneapolis. This has been very expensive, and required us to get up at 4am to meet the time difference, but i thought it was worth it to save nearly 18 years of a relationship. however, during this time he has lied repeatedly, and also erased history from both his phone and the internet.

i cannot keep trying to do this with a chronic liar. whatever problems he has, he needs to work them out. i cannot bear the stress and agony of what has been happening between us. while i don't believe he has had a physical affair, he has been unable to fully commit to our marriage. this morning he came home from work and told me he could not meet my conditions, and that he wasn't sure our relationship could be saved.

i feel that i have done everything in my power to support this marriage and meet his emotional needs. while he has tried, he has not taken responsibility for his own actions, and has not committed to the marriage. i have been pushing a cart uphill and he has been simply following me, not doing his own bit.

i love FWS with all my heart and want to be married to him, but what more can i do?

i appreciate any support you can give us both with our marriage. our country's law calls for 2 years separation before a marriage can be dissolved; however, this is not what i want. at this stage, i am only trying to protect myself from more pain and lies. i have a little hope left that maybe this will be the wakeup call he needs. but i may be mistaken, in which case i will be devastated.

it is very hard to be alone down here with no one. i have my mobile phone with me, which accepts email and skype. i would love hearing from you. my skype name is XX<<

so...after FWH came home yesterday and told me he wasn't sure our marriage could be saved(after another big lie the night before), i handed him a letter i had written the week before after yet another lie. i then left the house and have not been in contact since. i stayed at a friend's house yesterday. she was very kind and kept me busy, as it was a holiday here.

FWH texted me "xoxoxoxxo" = "i love you" in our text code, at 8.45pm. i did not reply.

i came home this morning after i knew he'd be at work, and just went through my list. had the locks changed, packed his stuff, filed for a separation order (which the court did NOT want to do - stuff for a later post!), and wrote my final letter. oh, i also got him a PO box for service of the papers, as i have no idea where he'll go.

when i got home, there was a note on the door "xoxoxoxox." but in the living room i found his doodle pad, and in it was something he'd written (intended for me?) that said: "what i want. i am not a baby and won't be treated like one. 1. my phone. 2. to go to car stuff without you thinking i'm up to something. 3. i'm not asking to use the computer."

the good news is i've had some lovely messages of support from my family and friends. the bad news is i live 12,000 miles from anyone who loves or cares about me (though my friend from work has been wonderful).

so, plan b-ers, what comes next? i am dreading him coming home and finding the bag/letter/locks changed and what his reaction will be, but plan to be out at the doctors getting some antidepressants when he is expected to arrive home. should he suprise me by coming home early, i will simply get in my car and drive away as he's coming down the stairs from the garage (my car is parked at the other end of our property). i have an appt w/our lawyer tomorrow to talk through our business/financial commitments and work out a cash flow system for now (he is enjoying, apparently, a 5 day weekend - office closed today). the lawyer has had a head's up from me in the past about our troubled marriage, and that i was giving FWH some time to pull his head out of his [censored], but that i would possibly need to see him in the near future. he was also the one who helped me locate a polygrapher in this country (nearly impossible!).

i have also called our DD and told her everything. i didn't plan on that until she came home for a visit later this week, so it could be in person, but he had texted her last night asking "have you heard from your mother today?" so she texted me and asked what the heck was going on.

i guess my Qs are: what is the worst part of being in plan b and how can i combat it? today i have been busy, but i dread tonight. i dread being alone in our home. but mostly i dread him saying that he can't do this, he can't commit, he won't change, and we're done. however, i am ready to be strong and not take him back on promises and lies. i am dark. my IM is my lawyer. i know that when i finally get 5 minutes to be alone with my brain i will be devastated.

this is long enough. cheers everyone.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/10/12 01:17 AM
What you should do is chat with a friend or family member online, or on the phone. Surely someone will be there.

That, or redecorate something, or--get a dog or cat. smile A pet would surely keep you busy, and would be perfectly loving.

You could also watch a good movie.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/10/12 01:37 AM
thanks karma. i have spent some time at the garden shop, as i have an area i want to work on should the weather give me a chance. we are going into winter here.

i have a 19 hour time difference w/friends/family, so it does make personal contact tough, but my sister is set to skype me later today, after her 12 hour day at the tax accountants 5 days before tax dday, the darling thing.

i have 2 cats, though i am sure that H will insist on taking one. i'm ok w/that and will just get another to keep the baby happy while i'm at work. i also have a horse, but the weather has been so wet i can't ride on the farm or the river :O(

i'm on a 2 week term break right now, which is both a blessing and a curse. blessing, because i have time to do the stuff that needs doing, curse, because i have a lot of time on my hands. the weather turns crap again tomorrow, so i may go in to work to, well, work!

i'm open to movie suggestions. while we get things much later than y'all, i may find something worth watching at the shop. how i miss netflix! i love movies, and can watch 2-3 at a go, so feel free to make suggestions! i especially like thrillers/dramas, but can stand a romantic comedy now and again. i also like horror :O) the only thing i can't stand is slapstick, but i am open to watching something teen boys will enjoy (for my work - we teach film). we don't get much movie advertising down here in nowheresville, and not much gets to our local, except blockbuster types, so there could be some really good films out i've never heard of.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/10/12 02:00 AM
What you can expect from the first few days of Plan B is extreme pain due to the withdrawals you will get from not being with your WH.

Also, your WH will most likely try to break NC with you so you need to ensure that EVERY avenue is blocked.

Have you changed your phone numbers and email addresses?

And your Lawyer is going to be your IM? Does he/she know what is expected of them? They are not simply to pass messages through, they are supposed to filter out any emotional stuff. And how expensive is that going to be?

I would suggest that you stay away from any movies that have anything to do with adultery. You will see it come up in places that you didn't expect, and it will hurt for a while.

In the first little while of Plan B, your only focus is to stay NC with your WH. DO NOT CALL HIM. DO NOT TEXT HIM. DO NOT LOOK AT A PICTURE OF HIM. DO NOT CREEP HIM ON FB. DO NOT SNOOP.

DO congratulate yourself for not doing any of those above things every night. And every morning, tell yourself that you will NOT contact your WH.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/10/12 06:53 AM
well, it doesn't appear that NC will be a problem. he's made no attempt of any kind to contact me.

here's what's happened this afternoon. he DID surprise me by arriving home an hour earlier than expected. everything was all ready, so i got in the car and left. he did not attempt to come down the stairs to the house - he got the mail/paper, and was reading it in his car when i left. he didn't even look towards me.

i went to the gym, then the doctor, thank goodness, since i'm going to need those ADs. when i got back, the things i left on the porch were gone. there was nothing from him. he has not called, texted, emailed, nothing.

perhaps he has always just been wanting me to pull the plug so he could leave with a clear consience. "she wanted me out, so i left." i am so incredibly sad.

my sister skyped w/me for an hour, which was lovely, and my dd called to see how i was. other than that, it's been quiet as a tomb around here.

i don't use fb, and can control myself (at least today) from snooping. but good suggestion - i've now put away our wedding pictures/family photos so i don't have to see him.

if anything right now i'm angry. how dare he? how dare he leave a good wife who has done nothing but love him and try to work out this relationship? who does he think he is?

but i will try to let that pass, get through the night, and start tomorrow with a different list of things to do, keeping focused on MY needs, since somebody's got to meet them; it may as well be me. my dd will be down on thursday, so i have something to look forward to. my mom's offered to fly out here, but as sweet as that is, we've never been able to be in the same room for too long!

am going to try to eat. have discovered the "joy" of the infidelity diet. bah.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/10/12 07:46 AM
Originally Posted By: Scotland
What you can expect from the first few days of Plan B is extreme pain due to the withdrawals you will get from not being with your WH.

Also, your WH will most likely try to break NC with you so you need to ensure that EVERY avenue is blocked.

Have you changed your phone numbers and email addresses?

And your Lawyer is going to be your IM? Does he/she know what is expected of them? They are not simply to pass messages through, they are supposed to filter out any emotional stuff. And how expensive is that going to be?

I would suggest that you stay away from any movies that have anything to do with adultery. You will see it come up in places that you didn't expect, and it will hurt for a while.

In the first little while of Plan B, your only focus is to stay NC with your WH. DO NOT CALL HIM. DO NOT TEXT HIM. DO NOT LOOK AT A PICTURE OF HIM. DO NOT CREEP HIM ON FB. DO NOT SNOOP.

DO congratulate yourself for not doing any of those above things every night. And every morning, tell yourself that you will NOT contact your WH.


scotty, i'm so glad you posted; i've been thinking about your post since i read it and realized i'm going about this wrong. the purpose of plan b is not to sit around hoping your other half gets their poop together, realises their mistakes, and comes running back to tell you they'll do anything if you'll take them back. (as much as i'd like this.)

the purpose of plan b is to sort my stuff out, and learn to live without him.

a part of me is sorry i started this process - is that normal? i know that i've done everything i could, and that staying with him right now would just bring me more pain and heartache. but as you know, 18 years is a long time to let go when you wanted forever.

i need to regroup. i think my work friend will be willing to be the IM, and if not, i have someone else in mind. the lawyer can tell him when he goes in for his appt (separate from me). my lawyer is the only professional person who has been sympathetic to my cause (and didn't express outright disgust at MB, as everyone else here has). the mind set here is so different, so laize faire (did i spell that right?). i had to be pushy just to get the separation order filed. when i ponied up to the window with the paperwork, i got a frown, called into a private room, and told "we hardly ever see those. why bother? just wait two years and file for the judgement, no paperwork necessary." i explained, patiently, that *i* needed it. and i do. i need to draw a line where my pushing the cart uphill ends and his resonsibility for where our marriage is gets placed firmly on his shoulders.

it is going to be very hard to close all avenues of contact, but i see now what you mean must be done. i'm not closing off the marriage, just the opportunity for him to fill my head with empty promises, to save myself further heartache.

but i have one (sadly hopeful) question: if he does realise that he's a moron, spends the time with SH and wants to come to me with 100% commitment to a recovery plan, he has to send it through the IM, right? does she need to confirm said plan before telling me about it? or does she just tell me he is ready to commmit, has a plan, and set up the meeting? how will i know it is serious and not ploy?

i feel like such a rube writing that last paragraph. i shouldn't even think about it right now, should i? the last gasp of a hopeful breath for something that isn't horribly likely to happen.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/10/12 11:59 AM
Quote:
a part of me is sorry i started this process - is that normal?
ABSO-FREAKIN-LUTELY NORMAL. Look at you, having normal thoughts and feelings. smile

Quote:
but i have one (sadly hopeful) question: if he does realise that he's a moron, spends the time with SH and wants to come to me with 100% commitment to a recovery plan, he has to send it through the IM, right? does she need to confirm said plan before telling me about it? or does she just tell me he is ready to commmit, has a plan, and set up the meeting? how will i know it is serious and not ploy?


Your IM would give your WH a list of requirements, one of which I would hope would be that he contact SH, and have SH inform you if he is serious. From what I have heard, Steve is very good at knowing if a WS is ready to attempt recovery.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/10/12 02:32 PM
(((((((((((((((((LETTY))))))))))))))))))))))

I truly am sorry for the current developments. You've done the right thing in the best possible way you could do it. Know that - and feel secure in the fact that if your marriage is to be saved, it may not feel like it, but this IS the way. No matter what - it is absolutely the only way to save yourself.

When I *made* my husband leave the house I was just like you: certain that he had just been unwilling to go previously because he was waiting for it to be on me. The days after he left were hard. I know how you feel. You WILL make it through!

I would say this: try your best to educate your daughter so she does not enable your WS. My kids were very instrumental in holding my H accountable for his actions. He truly thought they'd be sympathetic to his cause. They weren't. My youngest son even told him to straighten up or stay out of his life, basically. (NOT prompted by me - and boy - it had a great impact!)

Your WH needs a reality check. It's obvious he's been cake-eating.

Who all did you expose the affair to?

In my case, I was pretty certain at first that it had not become physical since the Skank lived out of town, but it had. (He'd lied about 2 business trips - weren't business at all.) I exposed to OWH's family within days after finding out and asking H to leave. Like your H, he would not commit to the marriage even though he claimed OW had "nothing to do with us" and wasn't the problem.

You've got your act together and you have a great plan! Let us know how we can help you stick to it.

As for movies - look for things that will empower you: strong women roles, fighting against bad guys, stuff like that. I'll try and think of some examples but I can't at the moment.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/10/12 09:35 PM
thank you, ladies. it's uplifting to get encouraging words in the morning!

a negative detail today: lawyer is on holiday until next week! eek! i am waiting for a call from his partner, who doesn't have all the background :O(

i have had two of H's friends/people he works for ring here saying they can't reach him on his mobile. i have told both i cannot pass on any message to H, and how much i want him to commit to the marriage and come home. just that simply, as i know men don't want to hear a lot of talk!

this morning i have been tidying. do you remember that scene in moonstruck where olympia dukakis has dinner with the professor? just before, he is having drinks with a woman half his age, who tosses her drink in his face and leaves. he calls the waiter over and commands that he remove "any trace of her" from his table.

that is what i am doing today. it's funny how little things kick you in the gut. his soap in the shower. his towel on the rail. his photography gear in the lounge. his fave drink in the fridge. whelp, it's all gone/going. (scottie, the first thing i did last night was put away all the photos, even my fave from when we first met, where i am young and beautiful, hahahaha.) i'm sure i'll be tripping over things for a while (the soap was a toughie), but i'm putting them all away. so there!

more good news: my closest friend here is willing to be my IM. we talked through it last night, and are going to do some role playing today. because we have no children at home, there is really nothing to have to talk about, so her job will be easier than or some. i mean, really, other than "i'm ready to commit" or "let's just end it" what else is there to say? i will not, WILL NOT, let him fill my head with attractive lies. you know the usual suspects: i'm sorry, i love you, it'll never happen again, blah blah blah.

exposure. this is a tough one for me, for 2 reasons. SH never mentioned it to me as part of my strategy. the actual affair was nearly 6 years ago now. the lying now...well...?? i have told my family, my two best USA gf's, my two friends here, our doctor, and our lawyer. excluding the two phone calls, which weren't detailed. should i inform his friends? i'm afraid that the culture here is very much a hands off one. as i've mentioned before, i have not been greeted warmly under the best of conditions. i can't imagine what it will be like with the worst.

btw, am pleased to tell you that my best gf here, my new IM, was very chuffed with the idea of MB! the first person! says it sounds incredibly practical, and is going to try to get her sister onto it. her sister lives abroad, and her H has been visiting brothels for kinky s-e-x on a regular basis. she's not willing to leave him, at least not yet. maybe MB will be able to help yet another! i only wish my UK friend had come here.

ok, i'm dumping my list of things to do today and going to visit my friend. will check back later, probably after having many changes of heart!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/11/12 04:56 AM
Argh! This is dreadful! For those who have had plan b work, how long does it take?

Don't worry, I'm still hanging there, and while I may think I've done the wrong thing, i know I've done the right thing, but it sucks!
Posted By: KaylaAndy Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/11/12 05:45 AM
Letty - I just posted this to Starfish - it's several years old now and is the first post in the link in my signature - might help you focus your thoughts on what Plan B is really about - for you:

Quote:
Originally Posted By: KaylaAndy
I've been cooking on this thread for a few days. 2Much2Lose, Tully, Bestfriend, and many more of you are dealing with the same issue.

A number of you have been called on the carpet by well-meaning folks here and in your family for stepping into the Plan B process. They don't understand the purpose of Plan B.

I've been reading "As A Man Thinketh" by James Allen. Google this title and you can actually download the book free from asamanthinketh.net

In particular, I love this quote for betrayed spouses:

Quote:
A person cannot directly choose his circumstances, but he can choose his thoughts, and so indirectly, yet surely, shape his circumstances."


This is the greatest gift of Plan B.

Before you removed yourself from the drama equation you were in what we call on the farm "a manure pit". Everywhere, the stench of cheating filled your nostrils - your thoughts and breath were consumed by getting the smell to stop!

Well, that doesn't lead you to think of how to better yourself, your life, and it's difficult to think of anything but the past - back when the marriage didn't stink!

Your wayward spouse accuses you of being the cause of the stinky marriage. But there's only one thing that causes this kind of stench - a wayward heart. And wayward hearts attract stenchy affair partners because they can't tell that they are the source of the stench.

But here's the big truth....

It's not the wayward spouse who is your primary problem.

....

...

..

.


Yes - you read that right. It's yourself. The lacking of any sense of self-worth... by degrees. You believe their blame that you harmed the marriage and they were on their way out well before affair person came around... Yeah right. When it's their own SBDs (silent but deadlies) sabotaging the sanctity of their vows.

If you are to become all that you were meant to be in a marriage, you must be whole, all by yourself.

Plan B is a breath of fresh air. You can think of how to better your life a lot easier when it doesn't stink so bad your eyes water. However, a partial Plan B doesn't accomplish this.

The most impressive moments in the lives of those who share their Plan B progress here – Mimi stands out when she put her dream house up for sale. Rinn stands out when she moved to the shelter. Charlotte when she hired Shiny. And most recently, Tully - yes - you - though you've been battered by your mother in law (a vicarious beating from your husband, actually) you took the Mimi approach and left the dream house.

How would you respond to people if you absolutely knew that you were worth the fidelity requirement?

How would you respond to your wayward trying to break down your Plan B?

Mimi got to that point - she absolutely knew her worth and she would no longer tolerate life with a double-minded man. Her knowledge of her own value is the reason she is such an inspiration here.

Rinn - you know what you thought of yourself before you left the marital home - you left, trusting in the words and knowledge of others, as well as that finality knowledge - you couldn't go on one more day under the threat of verbal, sexual, physical and emotional abuse.

So Plan Bs in progress and Plan B Wanna-B-B-ers, listen up!

Share on this thread who you are - ideal - without your WS defining you. And then read it every day like an affirmation. Remember who you are - sons and daughters of a heavenly father who loves you; find that perfection and let your thoughts lead you to live in the solution instead of the problem.

Bob Proctor wrote a book I've had on my shelf for years. He says:

Quote:
You're either living in the problem or you're living in the solution.


Plan B is the way to live in the solution. Let the wayward clean up the stench!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/11/12 08:05 AM
Thank you Kayla. I really needed that. As I tell me daughter, keep your eyes on the prize: you! Or, in this case, me. Despite all my heartache and worry, I am happy to see that I can stand on my own two feet. And if whose came to worst, I have a good job and can keep my house and not have to change my lifestyle, except to make it better for ME.

I also want to say something for the newly betrayed. Like you, I was scared of exposure. What if people turn me away. Tell me I'm a horrible wife? Say I don't deserve the marriage I want? That I was ridiculous?

After today's post by sunny asking me if I exposed, I took a great big giant breath and went to my husband's close friends. One right after the other. all my fears were for nought. Each one invited me into their home and talked with me at great length. All were supportive of our marriage (on MB terms).

Despite me fears (some of them I didn't know), I left with a lighter heart.

What ive learned today is that I have some true friends here. Women I considered only acquaintences have shown me they care about me. People I had never met (and their wives) have pledged their support. With or without my husband, I have a life here. I am no longer alone.

So, I have plans for the next several days. Stuff I have waited years for my husband to do is getting done - by me! I have tackled a scary bug, and unclogged my first drain. And I have slept through the night, something I could never do before if h wasn't home. I am both valuable and capable.

Its been a big day. I'm off to an early night. Thank you all for your encouragement and support.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/11/12 08:44 AM
Got caught up reading the plan b cafe thread. This particularly resonated

Quote:
other and this is something that a cake-eater doesn't want to do. They want to keep both doors open but a Plan B shows them that they have to close one door fully in order to be able to walk through the other one.


Whoops, I see I didn't catch it all w/this stupid tablet, but you know what I mean.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/11/12 04:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
Thank you Kayla. I really needed that. As I tell me daughter, keep your eyes on the prize: you! Or, in this case, me. Despite all my heartache and worry, I am happy to see that I can stand on my own two feet. And if whose came to worst, I have a good job and can keep my house and not have to change my lifestyle, except to make it better for ME.

I also want to say something for the newly betrayed. Like you, I was scared of exposure. What if people turn me away. Tell me I'm a horrible wife? Say I don't deserve the marriage I want? That I was ridiculous?

After today's post by sunny asking me if I exposed, I took a great big giant breath and went to my husband's close friends. One right after the other. all my fears were for nought. Each one invited me into their home and talked with me at great length. All were supportive of our marriage (on MB terms).

Despite me fears (some of them I didn't know), I left with a lighter heart.

What ive learned today is that I have some true friends here. Women I considered only acquaintences have shown me they care about me. People I had never met (and their wives) have pledged their support. With or without my husband, I have a life here. I am no longer alone.

So, I have plans for the next several days. Stuff I have waited years for my husband to do is getting done - by me! I have tackled a scary bug, and unclogged my first drain. And I have slept through the night, something I could never do before if h wasn't home. I am both valuable and capable.

Its been a big day. I'm off to an early night. Thank you all for your encouragement and support.


EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's what exposure did for me too. A: It killed the fantasy of the affair and all of that but on a personal level, it B: gave me MUCH needed support IRL.

I'm so glad you got that!

I keep wondering what people over there have against Marriage Builders principles. They are INCREDIBLY practical!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/11/12 07:51 PM
Today's radio show on secrecy is good. 2nd segment. Its raining and I'm trying to summon the energy to get up and go to the gym. There is no central heating in this country! Primitive, lol.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/11/12 08:45 PM
Sunny - I know! I reckon they are just so full of IB they can't see the forest.

I've just read Indies lovely metaphor of the warrior and the dragon as plan b. Great allegory! Makes total sense to me.

I'm having a hard get out of bed day, but am going to get my butt downstairs for a cuppa. Then maybe I can get going.

See ya later-
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/11/12 09:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
Sunny - I know! I reckon they are just so full of IB they can't see the forest.

I've just read Indies lovely metaphor of the warrior and the dragon as plan b. Great allegory! Makes total sense to me.

I'm having a hard get out of bed day, but am going to get my butt downstairs for a cuppa. Then maybe I can get going.

See ya later-


Keep your chin up, my friend!!!

I remember those times. I was thankful I had classes to keep my mind busy and off things - as well as my boys. They were awesome during that time! I swear, some days just all ran together.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/12/12 12:54 AM
Arg, this sucks so badly!

I had one person left who I couldn't get to last night. He was kind enough to speak w/me. Turns out he cheated on his wife 25 years ago, and now lives an open, completely transparant life. But he also told me that wh has hated our phone appts w/sh (so much for that empty promise, ie lie about booking more appts that he'll pay for) and that he thought my terms were unreasonable. He also said that he thought I'd come because I wanted him to tell wh what I said. I took a deep breath and said no, only that I hoped he would help support our marriage. Anyhow, he was nice enough (and surprise, surprise, all wh told him was that I kept throwing his A 5.5 years ago in his face, which is yet another blatent lie - I told him I never wanted to speak of it again, and told him of the lying).

So now I feel incredibly frustrated, though I should still take heart in all the positives i had yesterday.

I have a lot of unfinished business here, cars, property...I'm goi ng to make a list for the lawyer for next week so when i see him I can drop off all the billing for the business and have his bloody cars stored off site. And I'm going to pack up the rest of his stuff and put it all in storage too. So there! :-P

I have started taking the anti-ds, but they make me quite nauseated (I was warned this is common for the first week). I must force myself to eat so I have the energy to do the gym (so glad I did that for myself). Going to spend this rainy afternoon sorting paperwork and paying hills and making myself a budget (yuck).

Thank you everyone for your support and advice. And new ppl - pls, pls listen and act on the advice when you get it, no matter how hard it is, because it will save you heaps of anguish.

Oh, lastly, I'm booking our last paid for appt w/sh for myself!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/12/12 06:26 AM
HELP!!!!! SOS SOS.

Have just had a call from my IM. After 4 days of silence, and I am stunned that he actually called her!, he has said that no, he will not continue w/SH, and he's not going to write EPs. He DID offer to go to MC here, and wanted to meet.

I know she wasn't supposed to tell me anything else, but I asked. This whole NC thing is hard. He told her this whole MB thing was a pile of sh*t.

I can clearly see that he is livid about being held accountable for his behaviour.

He also said that I would be getting a letter from the lawyers because what I have done (locking him out) is illegal. Yep, it is here, but he can come w/the police and put me out. That'd be a great start to recovering the marriage, eh?

I am so angry!!! He is not accountable, he has no concept that he chronic LYING is the problem on the table, and he must believe I am so desperate to have him back that I'll take crumbs.

This moment sucks b*lls, but its a heck of a lot better being angry than depressed!

I told IM that I do not have an answer at this time.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/12/12 06:38 AM
That's right. You have no answer because he hasn't met your requirements. Nothing has changed except he's throwing a hissy fit. Well boo-hoo for him. Get back to Plan B and quit asking your IM for info, k? See what it does to you? Has your IM read ML's training school for IMs? She/He needs to be tougher and not pass on any extraneous info to you.

As far as you are concerned, you didn't get any message. Don't respond to his ranting. Stay strong, we're behind you!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/12/12 07:13 AM
thanks princess. yep, she has. she's been terrific. she knows what to do, and now, so do i. i don't know why, but for a smart person i always have to make a mistake before i "get" it. not so smart, eh?

that's exactly what i think, too. he's having quite a little tanty over his big ole self, and not getting his way, and peeved he's being held accountable for his behaviour. well, he can just stew in it!

Q: should she go ahead and tell him no go, or just not respond at all?

don't worry, i have no desire whatsoever to contact him in any way!

i did email the centre and ask for our last appointment for myself.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/12/12 11:44 AM
twoxfour uhuh

Now, with those out of the way, hug

I know how hard Plan B is. I know how hard it is to not know. I also know how hard it is to know anything. Any contact causes you to crave more contact. Just don't do it.

Your WH is just a typical wayward. Don't get caught up in it.

As far as your IM, she shouldn't answer him about things like this except to say things like, "Only pertinent information about finances will be sent to Letty."

Funny how your WH, who knows about MB, and hence PB, is still reacting so typically, no?

Of course he doesn't like MB, as you said, it makes him be accountable. Stick with your plan. You're doing great. Now get DARK.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/12/12 01:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
I've just read Indies lovely metaphor of the warrior and the dragon as plan b. Great allegory! Makes total sense to me.

-


Ah, thank you sweetie.

Originally Posted By: Letty
People I had never met (and their wives) have pledged their support. .


I'm glad their wives are involved - Just be aware of potential vultures when dealing with his male friends. Or yours come to that. There's something about a betrayed woman that makes the dinner bell sound for some men.

It's very common. I had a lovely married couple pledge me their support, only for the man to then friend me on FB and start making odd comments. He wasnt the only one either. High boundaries are needed!

Originally Posted By: Letty
I know she wasn't supposed to tell me anything else, but I asked..


This is because you werent prepared for him to break Plan B - but they ALL do. Be prepared for him to become totally dedicated to breaking your plan - including contacting friends and getting people to pass you messages etc - tell everyone they are banned from even telling you if he contacts them.


Your IM shouldnt have told you anything his contact, because there was no pertinent message to pass on. She should have said to him - 'I have been asked to only pass messages with pertinent info about your meeting her conditions or if you have relevant practical messages regarding finances. I see nothing here to pass on to her and I will not be sending her a message'. Then she should not tell you anything. You should not know if she is being hassled about nonsense or if she is hearing crickets - you should be in the dark unless there is relevant info.

Oh and also - STOP ASKING. The next time she can fine you one cocktail and she won't tell you even if you do ask (I hope) Has she checked out the IM training thread?
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/12/12 02:22 PM
I hope the friend understands after speaking with you that he needs to stand up to WH in terms of not supporting his crap behavior and rantings about how unfair it is to expect honesty in a marriage.

Glad you aren't falling for that "lets go to counseling here" business either.

Stay tough, Letty!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/12/12 05:43 PM
This will help your IM.
IM Training school by Melodylane
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/12/12 07:13 PM
Thank you all. It took a few hours, but I learned why - it makes a LB w/drawal which you can't afford the s. I get it now.

Read hpb's EP thread last night and had a good cry.

Scottie, I must have felt you all the way down here as ive woken w/a Hugh headache!

Indie - ewwwww!

Indie & sunny - she is fantastic - I was the moron. She's very much just the facts. I'm sure that things will go better - I've learned my lesson, and dayum, it smarts.

Thank you, bh, for the thread. My I'm is very interested in MB, and will be happy to read anything you guys think she should.

Thank you all for posting. It is such a great support when all you want to do is curl up and die. But I'm determined to start ME today, with everything I do today to be about making me better.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/12/12 07:17 PM
Do you have anymore sessions planned with Steve Harley?
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/12/12 07:32 PM
Yes, i have our last appt booked for Tuesday.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/12/12 07:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
Yes, i have our last appt booked for Tuesday.


Good. Keep us posted.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/12/12 07:39 PM
Q: my IM's 3 questions were above, but should I change or add "what plan then, do yOU offer for recovery?"
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/12/12 08:20 PM
No you set the conditions. He has those in your PB letter correct?
Also ask Steve H.
This is from the IM training school that I posted to you.
[quote=Melodylane]
Regarding attempts at contact for discussing reconciliation and poor recoveries I have seen on MB--Steve said the biggest mistake people make is taking the WS back with no clear-cut plan for R. Steve also mentioned the following:

1. WS does not have to end the A before we can talk about R (Steve said he will help guide us and negotiate the end of the A and make a plan for R). So a NC letter FIRST is not a requirement.

2. I spell out what WS needs to do...gethelp fortheaddiction

3. He said I should wait for WS to show me what he is offering without me giving any indication of where I stand.

-WS does all the talking

-See what his plan is for R

-How does he know he is ready?

-He has to be showing actions that are consistent with R

-Show me he has/plansto removeOW from hislife

-He said tell WS we need help/guidance, and let Steve then talk with him (no recovery demands as he will feel he is being controlled or I am being demanding). Steve said I could say something like,"We are really close to the edge here, and I do not want to make any mistakes. I would like to get someone to help us through this. All I know is I want us to be in love again. I am not asking you for a commitment, I am just asking you to speak with him so you find out his professional opinion of what R would involve for us."

4. During this time, I remain guarded and can say that it is not that I do not care, but that I just want to ease into R.[/quout want to return to the status quo where they were getting needs met in both places. A good IM will be able to screen out the false alarms. A false alarm is usually indictated by bullcrapattemptslike"how can I know if my feelings will come back if she won't let me contact her??" An IM should protect the BS from this kind of stuff.]
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/12/12 09:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
Q: my IM's 3 questions were above, but should I change or add "what plan then, do yOU offer for recovery?"


You don't negotiate about recovery in Plan B, that's Plan A. In Plan B you just get on with your life.

I think youre confused about the role your IM is supposed to be playing. She should aim to pass as few messages to you as possible. A few to arrange finances or practical arrangements and then she should be done and no more messages.

If he then contacts her to offer to meet all conditions, well great but if not you and she should just leave him alone with his choices.

For example:

Originally Posted By: Letty

Have just had a call from my IM. After 4 days of silence, and I am stunned that he actually called her!, he has said that no, he will not continue w/SH, and he's not going to write EPs. He DID offer to go to MC here, and wanted to meet.


You should never have gotten that message. Right now you should be completely clueless as to whether he's using the intermediary. The BS remains in the dark about that until he says something pertinent.

What he doesn't want to do isn't pertinent
What he wants to do is not pertinent
His opinions are not pertinent.

When you've read the training thread, you'll understand why, but when your intermediary gets a message like that she should just say; 'I can only pass messages regarding financial/practical arrangements or pass the message that you are ready to meet the conditions of her letter. I don't see any pertinent information of that kind, so I will not pass any message from your email to Letty.

Then she should tell you nothing at all. Not even that he has been in touch.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/12/12 10:38 PM
i hear you both, loud and clear. my 3 conditions stand (yes, in letter), and i don't hear anything to the contrary. i know i shouldn't have begged her yesterday to tell me anything. she really dragged her feet, wanting to be a good IM, especially after we spent the afternoon making a script for her. i am the weak one, but i do see now why it is imperative that i hear nothing unless it's "yes, he will meet your conditions, his action plan is..." until then, *absolute* silence.

mantra used to be "look good, smell good, cook good." has now changed to "look good, smell good, FEEL good!" that's today :O)

don't worry, i am dark, just airing feelings, thoughts, and obviously definitely need your guidance for this long road ahead which is going to require more strength than i've ever needed before. i did read ML's link, as well as HPBs EP thread. that one made me cry.

society is so conditioned to the drama, and life here is still quite patriarchal - it's no wonder to me now why we have such a terrible domestic/child abuse situation here (shamefully high). there is nowhere for wives/partners to go or do to separate themselves from their tormentors without doing what i did, and many of those people would simply break down the door. i was thinking this morning of a woman i worked with several years ago whose husband informed her of his affair(s) by allowing her doctor to tell her she had an STI. how did she ever get him out of the house? i cannot believe our option is singular and basically, "do nothing." one of the reasons we moved here is i thought it was more progressive.

we have been separated now for 5 days. and guess what? the world didn't stop turning, i didn't curl up and die, and i haven't even cried very much. i'm feeling (good?) without all the drama of having to deal with him and his lies!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/12/12 10:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty

we have been separated now for 5 days. and guess what? the world didn't stop turning, i didn't curl up and die, and i haven't even cried very much. i'm feeling (good?) without all the drama of having to deal with him and his lies!


I'm glad you're having a good day, but it might be a bit early for Plan B high fives. Its not unusual for BSs to feel an immediate relief but you are going to go up and down a lot. Don't expect a lot from yourself or take too much on during these early days.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/12/12 11:12 PM
i won't. i have lupus, and that alone makes me have to be very careful with my days, manage stress, and take care of myself, especially when the holidays are over and i go back to work, which is a great big pile of stress on its own. i'm just trying to do things for me for a change. with winter coming on, the long cold nights are going to be a (you know). i have two cats, though, who are happy to snuggle under the covers, and i'm so enjoying being able to read as much as i like again. wh hated my reading. i wasn't giving him enough attention. forget that he never spoke to me and kept his eyes glued to the tv all night. he was much happier when i sat there like a zombie with him, but it depressed the heck out of me.

ok, i must tackle a few items on my to-do list so i feel productive!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/13/12 05:59 AM
Well, I'm on a major down now. DD and her bf are here for the weekend, but that's just making me sad. They are cooking dinner now, and I'm going to try and rouse myself from this stupor.

I totally get that's its going to take much more time before getting his head around right, IF he does. I'm just so sad that what I thought we were building back together was worth more than this. That I was worth more.

I am very saddened that he may simply say eff it all. Or that when (if) he finally pulls his head out, I won't love him any more. I know plan b is supposed to help you maintain a lb balance, ... but this understanding that he may never be able to rebuild our marriage makes me want to sob. Clearly I am more of a morning person!
Posted By: Caracal Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/13/12 07:59 AM
Hugs to you Letty hug

I've been following along on your thread and just want to post that I understand how you feel on the rollercoaster. You are in early days of Plan B, and it is normal, no human, to be feeling sad and having ups and downs. If you didn't feel anything it would likely show that your LB$ had depleted too much to ever want to attempt recovery with WH.

My grief and withdrawal in Plan B took longer than some others here, everyone's sitch is different. But know that no matter how long the coaster ride, the downs get less severe and frequent, and the ups get better and longer. You WILL come out the other side.

In the here and now, there is nothing wrong with a sob either. It is part of the grief process. In the early days of Plan B, I remember trying to cook myself dinner, with heaving sobs coming out of me as I tried to take the tray out of the oven. How I never burnt myself I don't know, and I can actually laugh at imagining the mad woman I looked when my poor brother showed up one night and had to finish cooking my dinner for me! Shows how Plan B heals... and it does.

So, what movies have you been watching?
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/13/12 08:27 AM
Its horrible, isn't it. And after the last 5 years, I don't know if I can do it again. All over lies about stupid crap! Argh. OK, dont laugh. I haven't been watching any, I've been bejewelling myself to death! My DD just caught me and is giving me grief over it, but it does numb the pain. Tonight I got jabbed by a packet of cookies in the pantry. His. I much prefer being angry to this void.

How is your plan b going? That must be really suck over an ocean. Its bad enough when they're right here.

Thanks for popping in tonight. This board is what's keeping me going, because no one else gets it, though my IM thinks MB is great. Everyone else just wants me to leave. As if that would be any different! I'm curious, what legal support do you get there? Do you just have to hang around in limbo for two years too?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/13/12 08:32 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
Well, I'm on a major down now. DD and her bf are here for the weekend, but that's just making me sad. They are cooking dinner now, and I'm going to try and rouse myself from this stupor.


You're doing very well. Had your first 'up then down' already. That's quite impressive. I was a ball of red angry pain for three weeks straight before I started having ups and downs.

Originally Posted By: Letty
I'm just so sad that what I thought we were building back together was worth more than this. That I was worth more.


Yup its very sad. Tragic that someone could be so stupid as to look at something that half the world is looking for - love and commitment and total fidelity, but then they just chuck it out for the sake of doing what they want, when they want.

And you ARE worth more. That's why you're in Plan B. and you will GET more. Whether in a personal or a marital recovery. I have no worries about you. I think you're clearly strong. I am a year into my Plan B, and I predict you will be as happy as I am after a bit more time, healing and peace.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/13/12 08:34 AM
As for movies, I like dramatic and classic and romantic usually, Gregory Peck and Audrey Hepburn or Bette Davis.

But early in Plan B, you need FUNNY. My most useful early Plan B movies were the Legally Blonde ones and also Mike Myers in So I Married an Axe Murderer.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/13/12 09:21 AM
Letty, you're underestimating yourself. You ARE doing it. I think if you keep this up, you'll be an star Plan B'er others will follow for inspiration.

I entered Plan B very shortly after D Day, but had already started the infidelity diet because of the gaslighting. I was dropping the weight quickly, and had previously always been someone who in times of crisis puts weight on. My Plan B diet consisted of A LOT of sweeties, I just kept shovelling them in but the weight kept dropping. Friends started to worry about my weight and were encouraging me to just keep chewing when they'd take me out for lunch. Having just had Easter, boy I wish that was still happening lol!

As for Plan B'ing across an ocean, I like it. Plan A'ing across an ocean was the harder part. I admire those of you who manage to Plan B in the same country let alone town. Plan B in seperate continents is much easier. I occasionally worry Gollum might show up unexpectedly in my small town (like at Christmas) but overall I am safe in knowing he is not here. He can't turn up on my doorstep, drop in to my work, etc. I occasionally worry about his returning to Aus with Horse Ho and my unexpectedly running into them (I live in a small town). But since D Day took place in seperate continents, I actually think he should be more scared than I about that!!!

Legal support... nothing. I went to some free legal advice and got nothing out of it. Was actually told to leave well enough alone. That was in early days of Plan B, and I haven't bothered with any follow-up. I have decided in the next week I am going to look into other legal advice as this initial advice seems poor. Neither party can file for divorce until a 12-month seperation. For me that date is 18.05.12. Soon. Recently I stopped thinking of this date as a timebomb. I am starting to think of it as the finish line. I feel sad about that, but proud too.

Letty, whereabouts in the world are you? I missed it if you said...
Posted By: Caracal Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/13/12 09:29 AM
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
But early in Plan B, you need FUNNY. My most useful early Plan B movies were the Legally Blonde ones and also Mike Myers in So I Married an Axe Murderer.

I'm still at funny. Never in my life have I watched so many funny sitcoms and movies along with the occasional action. I used to be a bit of a drama fan, but found in early Plan B I just could not get a train of thought going long enough to actually follow the story line. So drama and documentary was replaced with Big Bang Theory, Indiana Jones films and Ben Stiller flicks.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/13/12 09:44 AM
Thanks, ladies, but tonight I am not strong. I feel like my heart is literally breaking. I've even thought of calling him and saying don't bother, its all over, because I just can't anymore. But I told myself I'd be bloody effed off come morning!

I'm just going to excuse myself and go have a good cry, then go to sleep. Darn kitten keeps waking me at 6.30, which is mighty early for me during holiday time.

I am in new Zealand, caracal, so not too far away from you. I must pop in to see the new nz poster, but I'm in no shape tonight.

See y'all in the new day.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/13/12 09:50 AM
Get some sleep Letty. This is a trauma, and your body and soul need rest to heal.

And there is nothing wrong with a good cry. Let it out. You are in pain.

Love your fighting spirit though. Yes, you would be effed off in the morning if you contacted him. It would achieve nothing. He would still be wayward. And you would have shown him you are not serious with your Plan B, and that your bar wavers according to your FEELINGS. That is how a wayward acts. YOU are better than that.

Be strong. Hugs. Sleep tight.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/13/12 10:04 AM
Originally Posted By: Caracal
replaced with Big Bang Theory, Indiana Jones films and Ben Stiller flicks.



I am obsessed with the Big Bang Theory!

Originally Posted By: Letty
I feel like my heart is literally breaking.


It is. The physical pain, needing to curl into a ball, was quite the shock to me.

Originally Posted By: Letty
I'm just going to excuse myself and go have a good cry, then go to sleep..


Yes cry whenever you can and mopst certainly sleep whenever you can.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/13/12 10:35 AM
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: Caracal
replaced with Big Bang Theory, Indiana Jones films and Ben Stiller flicks.



I am obsessed with the Big Bang Theory!

I'm glad it is not jut me then! I had never seen Big Bang until after D Day, and it became my salvation. It was the only thing I could watch and focus on. Anything else, I was just staring blankly at the screen and couldn't even tell people what was on. My father has always been a remote control dictator, but he even noticed my engagement and actually started to put Big Bang on out of sympathy!!!

I figure if Sheldon can't make someone laugh, life is doomed!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/13/12 04:20 PM
I LOOOOOOOVE Big Bang Theory!!!!!!


Letty: get in out it. It'll make you laugh.
smile

When I was alone during H's absence from our home a lot of times my iPod would be glued in my ears....music does a lot for me. I loved kick-donkey songs that were empowering.

It will probably be easier for you too, Letty, when the ADs have a chance to kick in.

I know how much I vacillated in the early days - feeling hopeless about my marriage - not caring about my marriage any longer - wanting to never see H again - wanting to see H right that minute... it's a crazy time. You just have to try different coping mechanisms and see what works for you.

(((((Letty)))))
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/13/12 08:44 PM
Good morning. Made it through the night, though just before waking I had a dream that H showed up at a reception I was at. This dream morphed into one where he was emailing someone from here about MB concepts. Ehhh, anxiety dream, that'll never happen.

Listening to the radio show again. I know everyone says this, but it is strange how alike each situation is.

I'm not are yet how I feel today, but I can tell all three of you that I love big bang! Its on twice a week here, and I make every effort to watch it. I am thrilled that a few USA shows I really like are coming back to our new channel soho next week.

I'll come back when I've gotten up and had a cuppa. Thank you for your replies - they're keeping me going!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/13/12 09:24 PM
Love MBRADIO.

I've listen to them all and the situations are very similar. I love how MB fits them all whether it's Plan A, Plan B or recovered.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/13/12 09:35 PM
I know - we all think our situations are unique but sadly, they aren't. When you arrive here you feel like you most post all the details so people "understand" but when it comes down to it, the same common denominators are at play in every case.

Of course, that doesn't mean that you can't vent here when you feel you need to get the details out. Sometimes just putting it on paper or on screen helps you think through it all.

The thing that helped me was having some structure in my life when I was going through the hardest parts. I had to make myself stick to a schedule - something I wasn't used to as a SAHM. Having things to do and places to be helped me function. (Don't ask me how well - I don't remember!)

Let people know practical ways in which they can help you. My youngest son was very intuitive as to when I just needed him to help around the house or sit down with me in the living room - even if we were both reading. My daughter sent me encouraging texts. My brother called to check in and would tell me stupid jokes to make me crack a smile.

As for books/movies/tv shows - look for strong, female characters (or male!) with "not going to take it anymore" themes. That helped me stay strong. smile
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 02:56 AM
Originally Posted By: Caracal
Yes, you would be effed off in the morning if you contacted him. It would achieve nothing. He would still be wayward. And you would have shown him you are not serious with your Plan B, and that your bar wavers according to your FEELINGS. That is how a wayward acts. YOU are better than that.


yes, i am. soooo glad i didn't. i *knew* i wouldn't, but the desire...oh goodness, the desire was so strong! i am feeling somewhat better today. certainly not in that black hole. maybe just teetering around the edge.

everyone: when i finally got downstairs this morning, the kids were watching american pie 2 (i say kids: 18 & 20). i would normally never consider such a film, but i sat down w/them and laughed and laughed! it felt so good. we are going bowling this afternoon, and i have just sent them to the shop to get all 3 pie films so i can giggle my way through the evening. with a chicken pot pie ready for the oven, the evening is ready to go.

tomorrow my dd wants to see my IMs kids, so we are meeting at my horse paddock so the kids can pat the horses and sheep. it'll be good to get out - i tend to never leave the house if i can help it! hopefully the weather will be nice. it's kinda hinky today.

cara, i spent some time this morning reading your thread. i'm not nearly finished, but girl, my heart breaks for you. what a catch 22 that we can all understand each other so well because we have been through the same hell!

sunny - yes, the being able to vent is such an important part - get the feelings out, and when others tell you it's ok, it's just so supportive and makes you feel like you aren't teetering too far over the abyss.

btw, i got down 3 pancakes this morning (but no bacon). was kinda sad making the pancakes, as i always made the batter and WH did the cooking of said cakes, but it was ok.

i was wondering if i acted inappropriately when WH said "i don't think this is working." instead of leaving the house for good, i should have opened a conversation about what he was struggling with. it would have gone better if he had said "i am struggling with some of these concepts." anyhow, i think the decision to go to plan b was right, as otherwise who knows how many more lies i would have been force-fed this last week?

a part of me hopes (ah hope, the last respite of the desperate) that he will agree to conditions and attempt to meet tomorrow as evidence of commitment, as he is supposed to be at the drag races in another town. but i know in my heart he's probably there today and staying until tomorrow (his original plan until i objected due to appt to photograph model tonight. he conceded to only go race day, tomorrow). have to stick to the plan - do NOT think about what he's thinking/doing! it doesn't matter!

i have just made a list for the lawyer's appt. is there anything i'm forgetting that i should ask about? appt not until thursday.

1. query: Separation Agreement - needs lawyer sig? is it going to bounce back to me?
2. WH is paying for his accommodation out of joint checking, but not depositing any money. ***BRING BANK STATEMENT
3. He needs to contribute for joint bills - last month’s electrical, phone, cable. ***BRING THESE BILLS***i will pay from now on.
3a. He is to file a change of address for the bills I've brought that are his personal bills. I will not be forwarding his mail for him (i'm wary of putting in an official change of address, as i don't want our joint mail [bank stmts, etc] going to him).
4. Formal agreement to allow the businesses to run as normal in the interim.
5. Wish to move his cars/stuff to storage/his place of residence asap.
6. Taxes need to be filed immediately for (WHs business). I have put together (all other documents) for the 2011-2012 tax year, but he can’t do them until WH's personal business is in. Tax return/accountant's invoice to be split accordingly (put in formal agreement in #4).

ok, putting on happy face now, even though WH and i just had fun bowling a week ago.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 03:18 AM
brief moment of anger: he's not willing to spend $195/week for six weeks to demonstrate love and commitment to me, but can spend $125/night for accommodation to show me disrespect and total lack of love/commitment? geez louise, he is seriously messed up.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 03:32 AM
((( Letty)))

Enjoy those movies with your boys.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 03:33 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
brief moment of anger: he's not willing to spend $195/week for six weeks to demonstrate love and commitment to me, but can spend $125/night for accommodation to show me disrespect and total lack of love/commitment? geez louise, he is seriously messed up.


You're in Plan B. So are you finding out things?
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 05:47 AM
I was paying the bills. He paid via our checking. Another thing to add to lawyer list. Side note. Everything here is paid by eftpos card. Your bank acct shows details of all transactions. If he'd paid w/his own credit card, I wouldnt have known. I've been very god - no stalking! But I'd put off paying my own bills long enough.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 07:25 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
I was paying the bills. He paid via our checking. Another thing to add to lawyer list. Side note. Everything here is paid by eftpos card. Your bank acct shows details of all transactions. If he'd paid w/his own credit card, I wouldnt have known. I've been very god - no stalking! But I'd put off paying my own bills long enough.


Thats way too much light for your plan to be dark.

If you can see what he's spending - thats as good as following him around all day. You'll never get through withdrawal like that. Every transaction will be a trigger that sets your withdrawal clock back to day one.

Plus he prob knows you can see it and will mess with your head.

What can you do to address this? Can't you close the account and get your own separate one? He shouldnt have access to your funds either, and legally and financially he should be locked down so he cant fritter away your money.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 07:41 AM
I've got my owne now, but itll be two more weeks before my paycheck will go there. We've recently moved banks and bundled all our mortgages together, and w/ two businesses its a nightmare w/many of our payments being made via auto-payments. My discussion w/ the lawyer resulted in leaving all the accounts as-is for now, as freezing them screws me. But I'm asking that he also open his own acct (at lawyers) to pay his own bills; however, our businesses complicate things. Until the lawyer gets back Thursday, my hands are tied. The good news is that I don't check the accounts unless its bill time or collection time. I have no legal means to prevent him from using the accounts (straight from lawyers mouth). The only money he has spent has been for his accommodation. It didn't bother me seeing it, until I realised the cost comparison!
Posted By: Caracal Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 07:46 AM
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Thats way too much light for your plan to be dark.

If you can see what he's spending - thats as good as following him around all day. You'll never get through withdrawal like that. Every transaction will be a trigger that sets your withdrawal clock back to day one.

Plus he prob knows you can see it and will mess with your head.

I agree with Indie. Any crack in Plan B needs puttying up, I've learned the hard way. Don't put yourself through it Letty.

Imagine if WH really wants to start hurting you... florist transactions, romantic hotel bills. Just don't go there. This peak has already shown you the emtions and the coaster pick up speed. Peaks slow down YOUR personal recovery. And regardless if WH pulls his head out of his butt or not, without you being strong enough, marital recovery can't take place.

Originally Posted By: indiegirl
What can you do to address this? Can't you close the account and get your own separate one? He shouldnt have access to your funds either, and legally and financially he should be locked down so he cant fritter away your money.

Protect yourself. Follow Indie's advice.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 07:54 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
everyone: when i finally got downstairs this morning, the kids were watching american pie 2 (i say kids: 18 & 20). i would normally never consider such a film, but i sat down w/them and laughed and laughed! it felt so good. we are going bowling this afternoon, and i have just sent them to the shop to get all 3 pie films so i can giggle my way through the evening. with a chicken pot pie ready for the oven, the evening is ready to go.

tomorrow my dd wants to see my IMs kids, so we are meeting at my horse paddock so the kids can pat the horses and sheep. it'll be good to get out - i tend to never leave the house if i can help it! hopefully the weather will be nice. it's kinda hinky today.

Well done on a wonderful Plan B weekend. If this is your first weekend of Plan B, imagine how you will be in a few months!!!

Originally Posted By: Letty
btw, i got down 3 pancakes this morning (but no bacon). was kinda sad making the pancakes, as i always made the batter and WH did the cooking of said cakes, but it was ok.

Congrats Letty, I'm impressed. It took me much longer to jump these hurdles in Plan B, replacing particular memories of Gollum and weekend breakfasts with Plan B breakfasts. Be proud of yourself!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 07:58 AM
Doing what I can considering I have no legal backing. I'll take another 2-3 weeks for the autopaments to tick over.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 08:05 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
I've got my owne now, but itll be two more weeks before my paycheck will go there. We've recently moved banks and bundled all our mortgages together, and w/ two businesses its a nightmare w/many of our payments being made via auto-payments. My discussion w/ the lawyer resulted in leaving all the accounts as-is for now, as freezing them screws me. But I'm asking that he also open his own acct (at lawyers) to pay his own bills; however, our businesses complicate things. Until the lawyer gets back Thursday, my hands are tied. The good news is that I don't check the accounts unless its bill time or collection time. I have no legal means to prevent him from using the accounts (straight from lawyers mouth). The only money he has spent has been for his accommodation. It didn't bother me seeing it, until I realised the cost comparison!


Can you ask your IM or someone trustworthy to check it for you? That way you wont be exposed to his shenanigans.

Whether a trigger bothers you or not, its still a trigger. Triggers will make it impossible for you to get out of snooping/battle/thinking of him mode and into your own space. Withdrawal is intensely painful. there no way you will be able to endure two weeks (at least) of triggers.

Even if he doenst use the account again, every time you log on you will know you *might* see what he's been doing. That in itself is a trigger. If you see nothing, you wonder if he is trying to hide his transactions from you! Again, a trigger.

Seriously, any wayward worth his salt will put a romantic hotel bill on there. Anyone would do that. I myself, even though Im a BS and should be above such things, put red roses on my dining table in view of the window after I kicked him out. Why? So he could see them and wonder where they're from.

From someone who found a hotel receipt for a romantic getaway (that I had really wanted to go on myself) Im telling you, dont leave him that option to mess with your head in that way. It's pretty bad picturing them at the hotel.

Get that gap plugged up.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 08:10 AM
Oh and dont forget, viewing his account is also a temptation for you to 'get your fix' of him.

when you next miss him, the desire to see if hes spent anything/what hes been doing will be immense.

So ask a third party to do what needs doing with the accounts - and also ask them to change the password and not tell you so its impossible for you to snoop.

You have blocked him/OW on all social networking sites etc too havent you?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 02:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
Doing what I can considering I have no legal backing. I'll take another 2-3 weeks for the autopaments to tick over.


Can your IM or someone you trust pay the bills or check them until you get this worked out?

You're so new into Plan B, that the cracks can do a lot of damage to you (even someone who's been in it for years can still feel the pain, read Mulan's latest Plan B crack). You're doing very well for 5 days in but need to plug the holes. Do you have anyone else?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 04:07 PM
I think when you're so new, and the pain is so fresh the pain of Plan B breaks don't even register.

Its like one more stab wound when you're already bleeding out onto the floor.

Its not until you're through withdrawal and get your first accidental chink of light that you realise how much pain they cause.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 05:01 PM
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
I think when you're so new, and the pain is so fresh the pain of Plan B breaks don't even register.

Its like one more stab wound when you're already bleeding out onto the floor.

Its not until you're through withdrawal and get your first accidental chink of light that you realise how much pain they cause.


This is very true. Plus, at the beginning a lot of times anger overrides pain as well. As the anger subsides, depression can hit (going through stages of grief), and those triggers that you stood up to fairly easily earlier can hit like a ton of bricks.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 08:38 PM
Well, y'all, I sadly experienced another crack last night. DD came home and said 'I've just saw dad at the pay phone at the dairy!' I had to wait until my heart stopped racing, then remind her that she's not just not to tell me if he calls/texts/emails her, she's not to tell me anything at all. I explained how much it hurts me to hear anything about him.

I see now its not exactly about Me breaking plan b, as he is not aware of any of it. Its about PB as its own entity, which then encloses me in its safety (the safety I should have gotten from wh). I see what sunny means re the high of having any kind of contact vs the deep low that follows. I have to go to work next week. I can't afford to not be in the ball. You can't wrangle 150 teenage boys well unless you're on your game. So brainstorming ways to paper up the cracks. I'm going to think of anything wh related as a poison gas. New plan b-ers, it pays to get this all done in advance!I shouldn't have been so hasty, but I don't regret my timing. I could be doing all this rubbish while having to work!

Btw, there is no ow, so to speak. Just a sad middle aged man who wants to flirt w/pretty girls and not have his ib interrupted. If an ow enters the picture, I will not be in plan b, but plan d. He's not worth going through all that again.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 08:50 PM
Can you have your IM resend your Plan B letter?

This way he'll remember.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 09:21 PM
Can you have your IM or someone you trust pay your bills until you get the accounts switched?
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 09:27 PM
I wrote my plan b letter by hand, and he has it. Her job is to reiterate: I want to come home. Her: do you have an action plan for 100% commitment & honesty? Him (anything other than yes). Her: call me back when you do, *click*. Thanks to Indie in another thread for that!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 09:54 PM
So how are you going to fix these cracks in your Plan B?

What about having your DD read the article from Dr. H on what Plan B is?
What are Plan A and Plan B?
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 10:39 PM
Having long talk w/dd in just a sec (whoops, she walked in, and it was just now). going to ask my work friend who took me in on day 1 to do the banking. it's all internet based, so not hard for her to do it if she will (though the bank manager wouldn't like it! tough.) calling account mgr tomorrow to make sure i've hit all the autopayments that come out (health ins, life ins, cable, elec, phone, etc etc ad nauseum). debating whether i can wait until thursday to see lawyer. could call and see his partner tomorrow possibly, but my lawyer has all the details and i REALLY don't feel like having to explain myself from the start unless it's imperative.

i think that's it for now, unless i've missed something? mmm, just realised that he should be paying half the med/life. i'll add that to the lawyer list.

feeling medium meh today thus far. going to go to the pet place to buy my neighbours a replacement goldfish for their pond, and book an appt for my kitten to have her shots. it's a very pretty, sunny day here today, which helps, though only 44 degrees when i got up!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 10:42 PM
just a quick note: realised that i should leave health/life in the joint account and just deposit my share there.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 10:44 PM
Good job Letty. Glad you're having a better day. When you stop having the breaks in Plan B you'll start healing.

Good job on plugging up those holes.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/14/12 10:46 PM
thanks BH. the support here helps so much. no one else "gets" it, you know? you have a good day too.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/15/12 03:03 AM
How did the talk with your daughter go? Is she supporting your position?

I understand you can't dictate to her how she interacts with her father, but you sure can educate her on what you're doing and why and ask her to support the marriage. Our kids were a huge accountability source for my H!

You're doing great! Just take it day by day.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/15/12 03:12 AM
Wow, we've had a big day today. WH has agreed to terms, and has offered dinner tomorrow to discuss his plan.

After the past several weeks, im wary. I'm willing to listen, but not make any plans for now. He is definely not coming back in the house until JC is well on its way!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/15/12 03:48 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
Wow, we've had a big day today. WH has agreed to terms, and has offered dinner tomorrow to discuss his plan.

After the past several weeks, im wary. I'm willing to listen, but not make any plans for now. He is definely not coming back in the house until JC is well on its way!

How did he do this? Through your IM?

What conditions did you set for him in your Plan B letter?

Letty set the bar high or you are very vulnerable for a false recovery.

Read this so you're educated on the signs.
False Recovery
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/15/12 04:16 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
Wow, we've had a big day today. WH has agreed to terms, and has offered dinner tomorrow to discuss his plan.

After the past several weeks, im wary. I'm willing to listen, but not make any plans for now. He is definely not coming back in the house until JC is well on its way!
What terms has he agreed to? Did he agree to your list? Did you hear this from your IM?

He is trying to control the situation, having you to dinner with him to discuss "his plan". "His plan" should be YOUR plan, YOUR list of EPs.

You should be wary. It sounds like he's not liking Plan B too much and is trying to break it by having dinner with you. He may bring out some ridiculous 'plan' of his that will encourage you to lower your bar - DON'T ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN. His goal right now may well be to do a little bit in order to get back into your good graces so he can move back home and get back to business as usual.

What, exactly, did the IM tell you about his call agreeing to your terms?
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/15/12 04:58 AM
Believe me, I am under no illusions here. I am willing to hear how he is going to demonstrate honesty and commitment, and then he can show me. I have no plans to have him in the house anytime soon, nor SF, which i am aware is my weak point.

No, he must meet all conditions w/actions, not words. My wh is not a communicator, so we will see how he does. I am willing to listen...once. if ALL terms are not addressed, he can go back to his hole. And if they are, he is going to have to live them for however long SH says before he's allowed home.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/15/12 05:08 AM
Letty, I really hope your WH is serious about this.

Since you are both already involved with SH, I would suggest letting him assess your WH's plan for recovery. Let SH get an idea of how serious your WH is.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/15/12 05:13 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
Believe me, I am under no illusions here. I am willing to hear how he is going to demonstrate honesty and commitment, and then he can show me. I have no plans to have him in the house anytime soon, nor SF, which i am aware is my weak point.

No, he must meet all conditions w/actions, not words. My wh is not a communicator, so we will see how he does. I am willing to listen...once. if ALL terms are not addressed, he can go back to his hole. And if they are, he is going to have to live them for however long SH says before he's allowed home.

Good that you'll put it pass Steve.

Let us know what he says. When's your next apt with Steve?
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/15/12 04:31 PM
My husband isn't much of a communicator either. You truly have to nail down exacts in this so that there is no wiggle room. I understand exactly where you are coming from in his moving back as it would be much worse than him staying gone to come home just to go through this again!

Having gone through some counseling with SH, your H really ought to know what it is you expect from him already, to some degree. Now he just needs to see that you are serious about sticking with that. You've done a great job to this point of showing that - which can be harder for a BS to do when there's no proof of an illicit A. I commend you HIGHLY for that - esp. being that he's gone down that road before! Now you just have to follow it through.

It's like a game of poker, really, and you have to play this just right. He needs to know you aren't bluffing; that you are going to stick with your terms. Of course, he needs to understand how much this all benefits him as well. If he is truly coming out of the wayward mindset, he should see the beauty in a marriage that is fair, equitable, and extraordinary! He should want a wife who is willing to protect your marriage to the extents you have gone to.

If he waffles at all, he's not ready.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/15/12 04:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
I wrote my plan b letter by hand, and he has it. Her job is to reiterate: I want to come home. Her: do you have an action plan for 100% commitment & honesty? Him (anything other than yes). Her: call me back when you do, *click*. Thanks to Indie in another thread for that!


That was actually Pepperband. I'm honoured to be mistaken for the great Pep!

And actually I would recommend your IM stick to email-only and stick to IM type responses. The thread you refer to was not bout an IM it was a BW and she was not in Plan B.


As to the dinner plan.......

VERY VERY DANGEROUS, DON'T DO IT UNLESS the following boxes are ticked.

1) He told your IM, as instructed (rather than simply ignoring your wishes and 'summoning' you directly)

2) He gave your IM a list of the terms he is willing to abide by, so she could see if he is willing to meet them in full BEFORE she tells you about it.

or

3) Your IM instructed him to approach Steve Harley with his list, (so Steve could assess his seriousness) and then SH could advise you on whether to meet for dinner.

If he's simply offering a chat, DON'T GO.

It's very common for waywards who are being Plan B'd to try this ruse and you should never fall into line with that plan.

It would be fine in Plan A, but in Plan B he can't just summon you whenever to discuss the marriage.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/16/12 04:44 AM
oh dear. if he had summoned me, he would have been given the boot. no, he says he has action plan for my conditions. action being the key word. not just "yes, i'll meet her conditions." his words = nothing because he is not trustworthy. action is my mantra today!

my IM just emailed me and reminded me: stick with the plan and keep my eyes on the prize.

sunny - i have no intention of having him home anytime soon, no matter what the action plan is. he has to actually DO IT, and for a while. this time alone has helped me recognise that i have allowed IB and poor treatment to go on for years, and i was the foolish one to teach him that was ok, rather than training him up properly.

indie (sorry, pep!) he presented a very nice invitation with the "yes" so i am prepared to see the plan.

my next appt w/SH is tomorrow morning, and i want to go over the plan with him myself, personally, to make sure i'm on the right track, or whether to say hi the road, jack, and don't'cha come back until you can be a good husband!

i am feeling strong now (meaning this this evening, lol) and am going to stick to my guns. i've come this far, it would be absolutely ridiculous to go backwards now, though i can see how it happens for so many. however, i'm still on track with all my "to-do's" and will not, WILL NOT, change anything until he has proven himself, and at length.

no easy-peasy, i'm back in the house and can resume my old ways. no i'll seduce her and woo my way back in. no i'll demand what *I* want, and she can suck lemons. no, no, no!

i spent a lovely evening last night with the kids, and we had a great day today, too. they left just a bit ago, and i went and had a pedicure. i am ready to do battle!

you give me strength, ladies. here's to the good fight!
Posted By: Caracal Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/16/12 10:33 AM
Letty, can you post what his action plan is?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/16/12 01:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
oh dear. if he had summoned me, he would have been given the boot. no, he says he has action plan for my conditions. action being the key word. not just "yes, i'll meet her conditions." his words = nothing because he is not trustworthy. action is my mantra today!

my IM just emailed me and reminded me: stick with the plan and keep my eyes on the prize.

sunny - i have no intention of having him home anytime soon, no matter what the action plan is. he has to actually DO IT, and for a while. this time alone has helped me recognise that i have allowed IB and poor treatment to go on for years, and i was the foolish one to teach him that was ok, rather than training him up properly.

indie (sorry, pep!) he presented a very nice invitation with the "yes" so i am prepared to see the plan.

my next appt w/SH is tomorrow morning, and i want to go over the plan with him myself, personally, to make sure i'm on the right track, or whether to say hi the road, jack, and don't'cha come back until you can be a good husband!

i am feeling strong now (meaning this this evening, lol) and am going to stick to my guns. i've come this far, it would be absolutely ridiculous to go backwards now, though i can see how it happens for so many. however, i'm still on track with all my "to-do's" and will not, WILL NOT, change anything until he has proven himself, and at length.

no easy-peasy, i'm back in the house and can resume my old ways. no i'll seduce her and woo my way back in. no i'll demand what *I* want, and she can suck lemons. no, no, no!

i spent a lovely evening last night with the kids, and we had a great day today, too. they left just a bit ago, and i went and had a pedicure. i am ready to do battle!

you give me strength, ladies. here's to the good fight!


Ok so let us know what Steve says about meeting your WH.

Did your IM send you his "action plan"?
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/16/12 09:52 PM
Originally Posted By: caracal
Letty, can you post what his action plan is?


Originally Posted By: brainhurts
Ok so let us know what Steve says about meeting your WH.

Did your IM send you his "action plan"?


a little frustrated this morning: appt with SH did not eventuate. i called at the appt time, left msg, called back in 10, left msg, called back in 10 and left msg asking for him to ring when free and i'd call right back. no call thus far (it's 2 hours after appt time now). he must have had a marital emergency! i certainly don't begrudge someone more desperate than me the time.

dinner went well. i was all dolled up and ready to roll. kept cool, calm, but firm on issues. his action plan:

  1. continue counselling so we communicate better and stay on the right path (i, too, have a tough job at this. i don't think i'm the best listener, especially when feeling frustrated).
  2. 20 hours UA time weekly
  3. EPs:

  • complete transparency with phone/computer use. (of course, this will be monitored at all times via DS)

  • no contact with any females, which, of course, includes no photography of any females.

  • honesty under all conditions - no omitting/saying/avoiding (this will take much practice).

  • 20 hours UA time weekly


these things hit all my conditions. lying was our big problem, plus poor boundaries around women via the computer. consistent monitoring will ensure that.

also, and importantly, i got a truly sincere apology for having hurt me so badly with his selfish behaviour. he stated that he was committed to the marriage, not just "trying" to "make it work."

he also said that when we were talking w/SH, he felt backed into a corner and blamed (which, of course, he was), but that the time we had spent together during that time was some of the best times we had ever had. we then discussed the principles, and how they made sense when you could look at them calmly and rationally, not reactive. OMG - i forgot to mention - he read the books! i had put both SAA and HNHN in his bag, and he read them (as evidenced by discussion of principles and how they relate to us). WH is NOT (no, really, NOT) a reader, so this was an astounding piece of evidence for me.

he did not push me about moving back, and told me where he was staying.

i'd really like sunny's input here on transitioning (AFTER i speak w/SH. i want to run this all by him before i take any next step). i think he should have to live on his own for some time yet, but be need meeting, almost like dating (of course, i'll do need meeting too, but SF is off the list for now). but then, i don't know if that's the right thing to do. in the back of my mind we were merging into the D-lane, and so i'm a little immobilized at the moment.

okay, carpet cleaner here, gotta run.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/17/12 12:03 AM
I would say that you need to get SH's input before you allow WH to move back in. It is highly likely that you will be advised to allow him to move back in shortly however, since it is much easier to recover your marriage when you are living in the same house. Separation is BAD for marriage afterall.

Is continued coaching with Steve, or the online course going to be a part of your marital recovery plan? If not, it should be.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/17/12 12:29 AM
Glad the dinner went well!

In my opinion, your husband has shown some action by reading the books and coming up with ways to implement the program.

I would agree that if you can get SH's blessing on his moving home, that would be great! He's the expert, obviously!

I will tell you this much: I got advice (not on here) to make my husband stay on his own for several months minimum, to avoid a false recovery. HOWEVER...I was also advised on here that (just as Scotland mentioned above) being separated is not conducive to recovery efforts.

In my situation, my H moved out in early October and moved home mid to late November. I took the advice to have him move home once I knew he was seriously committed to our future. Believe me, it was hard to know exactly when the right time, esp. when I didn't want our kids going through all that move out business a second time! I would say that after he moved out it was a very short time that he started talking reconciliation. It was probably 2-3 weeks after move out that I was convinced he had met my criteria and would continue to do so - and fully "all in" - and then another 2 weeks to give him time to make amends to the kids and such, allowing them to feel comfortable with him moving home.

We had some great dates before he moved home though. It was kind of like dating again. smile BUT...I digress.

You will be able to monitor his progress and activities much more easily once he is home - and you will feel more secure. You will also be able to meet each other's needs better.

How about you have him complete some of the questionnaires to show he's doing the work? Perhaps ask for apologies to those he complained about you to.

I'm just trying to think of some ways he can show you remorse and willingness to change...

BUT, again, if you are going to talk with SH, he can advise you best!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/17/12 02:08 AM
Originally Posted By: scotland
I would say that you need to get SH's input before you allow WH to move back in. It is highly likely that you will be advised to allow him to move back in shortly however, since it is much easier to recover your marriage when you are living in the same house. Separation is BAD for marriage afterall.

Is continued coaching with Steve, or the online course going to be a part of your marital recovery plan? If not, it should be.


yes, true, separation is bad. i don't want it to be a punishment, i just want to see more concrete evidence of his commitment first.

yes on the coaching, but will have to switch to the online programme soon - money an issue.

Originally Posted By: sunnydintx
Glad the dinner went well!

In my opinion, your husband has shown some action by reading the books and coming up with ways to implement the program.

I would agree that if you can get SH's blessing on his moving home, that would be great! He's the expert, obviously!

I will tell you this much: I got advice (not on here) to make my husband stay on his own for several months minimum, to avoid a false recovery. HOWEVER...I was also advised on here that (just as Scotland mentioned above) being separated is not conducive to recovery efforts.

In my situation, my H moved out in early October and moved home mid to late November. I took the advice to have him move home once I knew he was seriously committed to our future. Believe me, it was hard to know exactly when the right time, esp. when I didn't want our kids going through all that move out business a second time! I would say that after he moved out it was a very short time that he started talking reconciliation. It was probably 2-3 weeks after move out that I was convinced he had met my criteria and would continue to do so - and fully "all in" - and then another 2 weeks to give him time to make amends to the kids and such, allowing them to feel comfortable with him moving home.

We had some great dates before he moved home though. It was kind of like dating again. BUT...I digress.

You will be able to monitor his progress and activities much more easily once he is home - and you will feel more secure. You will also be able to meet each other's needs better.

How about you have him complete some of the questionnaires to show he's doing the work? Perhaps ask for apologies to those he complained about you to.

I'm just trying to think of some ways he can show you remorse and willingness to change...

BUT, again, if you are going to talk with SH, he can advise you best!


yes, i want to see more MB-related work, especially HNHN. we led an IB life for so long (both of us); how sad is that? i really had no idea how to be a good, solid couple. and this only supported his bad behaviour.

i am pleased at his move towards recovery and his remorse at causing me additional pain. the apology to others is a good idea. have sent email to see about another appt - i hope it can be soon. i want him home (of course!) but am not keen to jump in head first. will wait pending appt.

thanks, everyone, for your continued support. i never could have made it this far (and further) without you all, and we definitely would have been on the D-road for sure if it hadn't been for you and MB!

oh - had another conversation w/my mother today. she asked if this is what i wanted. i said yes, and reiterated that my goal was always restoration of our marriage. then her hubby got on the phone to say my mother sent me a care package, and inside i would find a VAR! bless him! here's hoping i don't need it!

have DDs feelings to consider as well. she is livid. but i did tell her that if dad pulled his head out of his bum, we would come up for the weekend in a few weeks when i go up for work (this had been our initial plan anyhow - i have to go to her town for work, and H was going to drive up after his work (i'd go on the school bus) and we'd spend the weekend there together). i was thinking that could be our first weekend back together, and w/our DD as a family, but perhaps that is too long. i don't want to undo the good i have done.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/17/12 11:42 AM
Hi Letty,

I hope all goes well with your road to recovery. Obviously I don't have the experience to offer advice, leave that to SH, vets and those further along than me, but I support you and am thinking of you. Reading your thread and the support you have offered me on my thread, you have the strength to do this.
Posted By: aBetterMe Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/17/12 05:36 PM
Letty - Just wanted to pop up and say you are AWESOME! Great job doing the MB plan. I'm so glad you have the support you need and that your WH is turning around.

{{{Letty}}}
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/17/12 09:33 PM
thank you, happy and ABM, for your comments. every last little bit helps during these trying times, doesn't it? you two made my day today :O)
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/18/12 03:16 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty

a little frustrated this morning: appt with SH did not eventuate. i called at the appt time, left msg, called back in 10, left msg, called back in 10 and left msg asking for him to ring when free and i'd call right back. no call thus far (it's 2 hours after appt time now). he must have had a marital emergency! i certainly don't begrudge someone more desperate than me the time.


Did you ever get to talk with Steve H?
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/18/12 04:01 AM
not yet. i had an email this morning for a 2pm appt, but it was already 3pm their time. we've got a 6 hour difference. maybe tomorrow. i'll ask them to ring me and wake me up this time, rather than miss the email at 3am!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/18/12 04:04 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
not yet. i had an email this morning for a 2pm appt, but it was already 3pm their time. we've got a 6 hour difference. maybe tomorrow. i'll ask them to ring me and wake me up this time, rather than miss the email at 3am!


Good. Keep us posted.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/18/12 04:09 AM
sure will. gotta keep on track, and this board is a great way to do it!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/18/12 02:39 PM
I hope you get to talk to SH soon. I think you will benefit greatly by having him give you clear direction on where to go from here.

Does your H understand that he has had very poor boundaries with women in the past? The IBs must stop as well, but I think he really needs to understand why he can't photograph women, etc... any longer: that it's not just punishment but that he needs to shore up these boundaries.

With my H, he has always liked being the "nice guy" that treats people well, listens, gets along, etc... He has a great heart and likes to help people. However, after our reconciliation he knew he had to keep conversations "professional" with women in the future. At first it was because he thought of it as being a measure to make me feel secure and not worry about the possibility of a future A. He didn't seem to get that it was about HIS stuff, not mine. In the past I didn't care so much about him being friendly. However, it was this exact dynamic that caused him to go down the slippery slope of the A. Boundaries must be shored up because they lead to bad places... not just to please me and/or make me feel good.

There's this misconception (and I believed it for years) that if you have a good relationship, you won't be tempted. It's not true. Of course, having a full love bank with each other does make it less likely that you're going to fall into temptation, but it doesn't make it impervious to infidelity. Loose boundaries can lead to things that drain love blanks, even if just stealing pennies at a time. Next thing you know it, chunks are being withdrawn because some outside source is pulling money out of the account and you don't even realize it until it's too late - like hidden bank fees you may not notice until they've really racked up.

I don't know why but your situation just made me think about this a lot. I guess it's because your H was so concerned about you trying to control him. The comments he made previously to his friends and such showed he was really not wanting to give up his IBs, as well as his resentment towards what SH was telling him. It showed that he didn't truly get the MB program: that it isn't about you making him pay or wanting to control him, but about making your marriage exceptional. The other side of that coin is that not only does the program fill both love banks, but you secure those boundaries to make the marriage as air tight as possible against outside influences.

If this is your H's goal, which he says it is, then he should not be resentful of boundaries and giving up IBs.

The thing is, it takes knowledge of the MB to understand that it's so different from typical marriage stuff that seems punishing rather than mutually beneficial. But... if your H has read the materials, hopefully he gets that now.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/18/12 02:57 PM
I also wanted to address your daughter's feelings, etc...

Sorry - may be coming in a little late on that one. I'm really busy with school work right now and trying to be responsible and limit my time here for now to meet my school/family obligations. smile

Having a 20 year old daughter myself - along with boys 16 and 18 - I know that you have to manage your family's feelings about the reconciliation as well. (Sidenote: I think it really kicks a$$ that your mom/dad sent you a VAR!) My kids showed they were very wise with it all. They felt my H needed to show true repentance before coming home. They needed to know that not only did he understand his mistakes, but was willing to do whatever it took to change: to understand why he did what he did and to put actions in place that would deter it from happening ever again. They all agreed that there was no more chances after this - that if he failed to be faithful from here on out, the marriage was over.

They felt comforted to know that there was a recovery plan. They instinctively knew what the MB program tells us: just compensation is the best way to "get over" what has happened and that you must put things in place to ensure those two sides of the coin I talked about above. Once they knew that, they were happy that H was coming home.

It's hard with older children: their relationships with your spouse are their own. Your H has to navigate all of that for himself to a large degree. However, once you feel secure in the knowledge that he's on board, your confidence in that will spill over to the rest of your family.

I'll never forget when my brother came to visit, months after H and I reconciled. I was worried about it: my brother is someone I look up to and I know it was hard for H to have to face seeing him after all that was done. They both did a great job. H was humble and my brother was gracious...a real example of what forgiveness looks like. There was no posturing or anything like that.

It sounds like you have a great support system in place and they'll all do just fine as long as H sticks with the program!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/18/12 07:48 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
(Sidenote: I think it really kicks a$$ that your mom/dad sent you a VAR!)


I agree!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/19/12 08:40 PM
good morning everyone. went to work yesterday and going back today (it's not holiday time, it's *non-contact* time!) some days i feel more like a secretary than a teacher :sigh:

ok, yesterday i went to my appt w/the lawyer and spoke w/him at length about protecting our assets should it ever come to that. i told him we were reconciling, but that...you know, once bitten. i feel better about that now. i also didn't want to cancel the appt and have him think i'm crazy (make appt, cancel, make appt, cancel)! he was very understanding and supportive. as i said in jennifer's thread, any agreement drawn up needs to go through WHs independent counsel, and agreed to or it's unenforceable.

spoke w/SH this morning at the crack of dawn. got him caught up to date. he is satisfied that WH is prepared to meet conditions, which he is putting in writing, plus NC to FB girl which will include apology for running me down to her. he advised moving WH back in when these things are finished, which will be tomorrow. so i guess he will come home sunday after everything has eventuated.

we also talked at length about incentivising the programme to make it attractive to WH. i need to be a much better listener (and read up on the enemies of conversation) and also we need to role play situations. SH pointed out that in addition to the poor boundaries, WH lies over stupid, ridiculous stuff because it's IB. if we role play similar sitches, he can learn how to change his mental state from the "there's nothing wrong with what i'm doing, i don't get why BW doesn't like it" to "hmm, this feels weird, i'll tell BW about it."

sunny, i think you're right. it's his responsibility to re-establish his relationship w/our DD. not mine. glad to hear that she will come round when they do. i do not want to influence her thoughts/opinions. he will have to work for it, just like he has to w/me.

i'm a little afraid of telling my friends and family that we are reconciling. they are all aware that my commitment is to the M, that was foremost in my conversations w/them, but i think they will be rather surprised that i am actually going to take him back (again). any advice on how to handle comments like, "really? how are you ever going to be able to trust him?" will they be able to have a relationship w/him that won't be strained? or will his behaviour (post PB) make that possible?

i'm feeling a bit resentful that i've just had a 2 week break from work and didn't get any down time. no weekend away. term 2 is so incredibly busy; my calendar is just chock-o-block w/meetings and extra-curricular activities, never mind the teaching part, that i want to cry just looking at it. plus, i'm taking someone else's year 13 class for 3 weeks (thank goodness it'll be doing the same as mine), and having to leave work for the class i would normally have that period, where each student is on an IEP! eeeeeeek! don't *even* ask about marking. i've got a pile as deep as my forearm! deep breaths, i know!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/19/12 08:47 PM
Sounds like you have a good solid plan. Great.

I think that you will have to just tell the people in your life that you are grateful for the support they have given you during your dark time, and that you hope they can continue to support you in attempting to have the marriage you and your husband deserve. You can let them know that with MB's help you can achieve that. Also, ensure that you aren't talking about anything concerning your recovery. Once recovery begins, it is between the two spouses. No more commiserating with your friends and family about your marriage. Complaints should be taken up with your spouse.

Now, I see that you are about to become really really busy. How are you going to work in the 25 hours of UA time?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/19/12 08:59 PM
Dr H recommends the couple take a break at the start of recovery, helps with that first steep bit of hill, is that possible for you if you're feeling a bit strained?

Don't worry about other people. In fact you need their sceptism.

Everything he does for you will be in view of F&F, and they will judge him accordingly. It is right that he earns respect and forgiveness slowly, rather than by getting it cheaply.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/19/12 09:03 PM
thanks, scottie, that's good advice.

the 25 hours should be fine. i go in at 7 and leave, no matter what, at 4. WH gets home at 4 too, so we have several hours in the afternoon to UA, and we've committed to not wasting it, plus we spend all time together on the weekends, but now it will be spent doing fun stuff and not just chores/watching tv/wasting time. i've even committed to getting up earlier on the weekends so we can maximize time; chores in the am, fun in the afternoon. for example, tomorrow we are going to clean up our office (it's become a cast-off room and is an embarrassing disaster), then go bowling and out to dinner. if it's nice, instead we are going to hike out to a waterfall in our province, then go out to dinner. either way, it'll be a nice day together, and we will have accomplished many things, both chore-related and personal. i like the feeling i get when we have a plan and actually do it. he does too. we are both planners and enjoy routine, the routine just needs to be more productive.

one of our biggest problems was that we just worked and worked and worked, and when we were home we were just knackered and ended up doing nothing. now we need to focus on us, and actually *enjoy* our time together.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/19/12 10:17 PM
Looks to me like your plan is very solid!

It will help with your family/friends that you took such a strong stance in protecting your marriage at the beginning of the situation, not allowing it to become an affair in which he had to untangle himself from.

I know how you feel right now with such a hectic schedule! Mine's going to be nuts these next few weeks/months!

So glad things are going well, Letty!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/24/12 07:44 AM
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Dr H recommends the couple take a break at the start of recovery, helps with that first steep bit of hill, is that possible for you if you're feeling a bit strained?

Don't worry about other people. In fact you need their sceptism.

Everything he does for you will be in view of F&F, and they will judge him accordingly. It is right that he earns respect and forgiveness slowly, rather than by getting it cheaply.


we are going away for the weekend in two weeks time, which i am looking forward to. we will have to wait until the next set of school hols to get away longer. we just had a lovely holiday over the summer break, spending 4 weeks in the states.

WH has moved home today, and it has been a bit of a mixed blessing. i was very anxious coming home today, and had gotten used (already) to doing what i want when home, so there are adjustments to be made.

DD is refusing any contact w/him right now, which he is going to have to work through. we are visiting her on our weekend, and WH is asking to take her to dinner on the saturday night. i agree, indie, that it is HIS job to deal with the fallout of HIS bad behaviour.

surprisingly (to me) i've had a lot of support and encouragement from people around me at PB, even from unexpected areas. today my boss told me about her husband's IB after their two girls were born, and that she twice left him, but then he straightened up and flew right.

WH seems incredibly contrite (thank you exposure), and i am happy that he has actioned my items as scheduled.

my friends have all been very supportive; i had two messages today asking how things were, which i need to respond to.

we had a lovely weekend, working on house together sat am, then bowling and dinner out. sunday we drove out to a lake and had ice cream. tomorrow is a holiday here, and we are going to do an hour of yard work, then something nice in the afternoon. i love UA time! he does too.

so hooray for now. the trick is to keep it going! more on that to come...
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/24/12 09:17 AM
This all sounds good,

What MB plan will you be following for MB recovery? The books? The online course? Counselling with the Harleys?
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/24/12 10:41 PM
Glad things are going well and that you have so much support, Letty!

I hope your H understands why DD is so upset: his actions rocked her world probably more than he wants to realize. In my sitch, it was my middle child/oldest son that was the hardest to come around, I think. He did not want to see my H until he was felt confident that H had changed from his waywardness.

After the first awkward meeting between the two - I think it will get better.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/25/12 01:40 AM
we will be using the online course and the books. last night we talked about what we had read in HNHN and how important it was to stick w/it. this is more on me - when i had my surgery, and the year following, he was fantastic. i was the one not need meeting, and developed resentment of him, despite all the wonderful things he was doing for me (weird, eh?).

part of this comes from my work; my job is exhausting and sometimes when i come home i have little time, patience, or interest. i recognise that, and am working each day to compartmentalise my work day and keep up with good planning that allows my day to be less exhausting and brain-sapping. it isn't easy - my workplace instituted a programme 3 years ago (i volunteered for the first intake, but now it is schoolwide) that eats up what little non-contact time i have, plus i am the asst dept head, for which i get a whopping 1 hour/week to do about 8 hours worth of work. so some things need to change on my end to allow me the time and mental space to be a good spouse. i often present at conferences, and keep a professional blog, all things that take up my precious time and need to come to an end if i am to have a happy, more fulfilled life. i think those things were crutches before - i fulfilled myself professionally rather than personally. what a waste!

thanks sunny. i am leaving it up to him to make the contact/pick up the reins of the relationship. i am looking forward to our visit, and them (hopefully) having a better relationship than before.

it's a lovely day here today, so am going to enjoy some sunshine while it's here, and enjoy giving and getting ENs.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/25/12 01:39 PM
It can be very tricky balancing personal things that give you the recognition we all tend to crave and marriage and family!

I have recently learned what overextending yourself can do - and am vowing not to do it again! smile
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/26/12 12:00 AM
sunny, is it normal to be feeling a bit anti-climactic? it's very early days, but i find myself feeling a bit resentful inside. it IS hard to preach RH when i don't feel i'm being totally honest! but i don't want to disappoint WH so soon after him meeting all conditions. i suppose i just want to know if this is a transitory phase, feeling like i was just managing to be alone and myself, and now i'm having to make room for him again, and wondering if that was the right decision. i mean, i'm happy we are having this chance, and happy that he did the right thing, but a little voice inside me wonders: why are you giving him *another* chance? some of this may be just residual feelings from some ppl in my life wondering if this is the *last* chance for him. i need to reiterate this is what *I* wanted and created.

enough. i need to commit to my own actions now, so i am fully receptive to his EN meeting.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/26/12 12:35 PM
Letty, I hope all goes well for you. I wish I was further along my journey, I would love to be in recovery and able to answer your questions.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/26/12 09:28 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
sunny, is it normal to be feeling a bit anti-climactic? it's very early days, but i find myself feeling a bit resentful inside. it IS hard to preach RH when i don't feel i'm being totally honest! but i don't want to disappoint WH so soon after him meeting all conditions. i suppose i just want to know if this is a transitory phase, feeling like i was just managing to be alone and myself, and now i'm having to make room for him again, and wondering if that was the right decision. i mean, i'm happy we are having this chance, and happy that he did the right thing, but a little voice inside me wonders: why are you giving him *another* chance? some of this may be just residual feelings from some ppl in my life wondering if this is the *last* chance for him. i need to reiterate this is what *I* wanted and created.

enough. i need to commit to my own actions now, so i am fully receptive to his EN meeting.


It is ABSOLUTELY normal to have these residual feelings and doubts! With everything that has happened, your husband has withdrawn massive amounts out of his love bank with you! MASSIVE. He has to make withdrawals to fill it back up - and that takes time.

There's a period where you are elated that they've chosen the right path, followed by a letdown when you're sad/angry/frustrated that you had to go through this at all. VERY, very normal. Depression can even set in.

It's important to be honest about where you are at without beating your H with a whip about it. You have to keep it all in the present - not the past - and that can be a difficult balance to find: the RH with the leaving the past in the past.
For me, the trick is to say what I'm feeling without going into a lot of specifics about H's A or the wayward time period. He knows what he did, I don't need to remind him. He needs to help get me over the humps too.

It will be useful if you can tell your H specific actions that make you feel better.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/27/12 12:30 AM
The hardest reality we all face in personal recovery and marital recovery is to keep the past in the past. The delicate balance is exactly that ... feeling the past enough to keep your today safe without feeling the past too much and reliving the hurt.

The feelings you are feeling now can last up until the 2 year mark into recovery. It will depend on how well your WH heals you and the ability to build trust and romantic love simultaneously.

This is why 25 or more hours of UA time are recommended now. It is enough time to get some deep bonding going and the ability to deposit more love.

Try to really hone in on your top EN's today ... make sure he is hitting them with full force.

I know for myself (if wayturd pulls his head out of his behind) is I need a strong amount of family committment, O&H, and SF ... Because my WH has turned into "Satan dad" my need for FC and his ability to make up for the hell he is putting my kids through will be crucial.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/27/12 07:19 AM
i spoke w/H last night about being honesty/feeling out of sorts. i feel better today just for having got it off my chest in both places! it seemed such a burden when i kept it inside, and so good to know i'm normal! (funny how we always worry about how "different" we are, when we're all basically the same.)

hitting up those top needs is helping. soooo looking forward to tomorrow and sunday, though have promised H i will attend the speedway w/him saturday night when i'd really rather stay home and watch the movie on tv, adverts and all. however, it will be good for us to be out in the fresh air and w/each other, and the weekend has fun things for me as well. we are really getting into getting our house shipshape. we have both always been so career focused that our property has slid into disrepair, but a few more weekend mornings of yardwork/housetending (combined with fun afternoons) should set things right all round. just seeing him interested in our home is a big boost for me.

thank you all for checking in on me. this is still a work in progress!

ps: happy, did you happen to catch today's dr phil? now *that* was scary! RAs just add fuel to the fire, don't they?
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/27/12 11:30 PM
Make sure you aren't compromising on your UA plans, Letty. smile Remember...you're supposed to enthusiastically agree to stuff. It's hard to get used to, but important.

And yes - definitely a work in progress.

My head has been in books and the computer for days - so I haven't seen anything lately on tv. frown
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/28/12 01:06 AM
yes, i told H that i wasn't enthusiastic about going, but when he told me how much he likes to have me there w/him, and how it had disappointed him in the past when i said i would go and then didn't, i thought of how i would feel if he did the same. so i am happy to go and spend this time w/him. he has also told me that he has booked a fabulous "penthouse" for our weekend away in 2 weeks. that he took the time to actually DO it is very pleasing (i've always been the planner), and that he's making it special is as well. very stoked!

we have just finished today's yardwork. a moment of DJ - H told me {bit sarcastically} "you're going to put all that in the fadge, right?" (fadge: large canvas bag to hold cut grass, etc, to take to the dump) i was a bit peeved at this: while he was away (having his a), i had cleared an entire area in our side yard, cut back the vine, cleared all the weeds, cut down the orange tree and two tangerines, weedmatted and barked the entire area, and installed a rotary clothesline, all by MYSELF (well, i had a guy in for the orange tree, but i was in charge)! it was a huge undertaking and took 3 full weekends! i am a city girl, and this did not come easy! but i didn't mention it (no past, no past!). i waited until my area was clear, then asked him to take a look. all plants cut back, sidewalk length of back of house cleared of all debris, fadge full. i also said i was saddened by the DJ. he said that in the past i was notorious for cutting and cutting, but not clearing up. i admitted that had been true, but pointed out that now we were working together for the betterment of our home & relationship, and how thrilled i was that he was taking an interest in our home and actually acting on it! crisis averted. got a "well done, wife" and pat. now getting ready to clean up and do some fun UA time (sorry, i will never consider yardwork "fun" even though i appreciate it!).

ok, so i have a dilemma and need some input. i have found out a few weeks ago that someone in our semi-small community has a "card night" where 3 married men and 2 single men supposedly play poker, but actually have hookers in (they meet at one of the single's home). i cannot tell you how much this disgusts me and several different levels. i know the full name of one of the marrieds. i do NOT know either him or his wife personally, though he had done work at our house when we built our garage 8 years ago, so i know OF him. however, i feel a huge obligation to communicate with the BS and advise her of this. if i were in her position, i would want to know. she cannot possibly make proper decisions about her own life, and those of her children, if she does not know the facts. unfortunately, i cannot call her on the phone, because my accent would make it plainly obvious who i am and who i heard it from, which i think would inflame the situation. so i suppose my question is: 1) should i inform? and if so, 2) how? one note: prostitution is not illegal here, so there is no opportunity for a "sting"-like scenario, which is a pity as i have regular contact w/local constabulary via my job, and would be glad to set that ball rolling! or am i just projecting my own situation? or am i feet dragging?
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/28/12 01:16 AM
Go on and tell the wife! Who cares if she knows it's you, she deserves to know what's going on!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/28/12 02:58 AM
Yes you need to tell her.

Your WH does not need friends like that. Why do you care if she knows it's you? You should talk to her in case she has questions. How else would you inform her?
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/28/12 09:17 PM
ok, i can see i have not explained this well. here goes.

three weeks ago i went to visit a friend, a girl who was my first friend here. i only get to see her 1-2x/yr, as she lives some distance away and doesn't drive out of her tiny town, so i have to go there.

while we were visiting together, she said to me (i'll call her F) (i'll try to relay it as best i remember)

F: you'll never guess what i heard about someone you may know.
me (M): what?
F: you remember SOandSO, well, it turns out that his "card day" every week is really having hookers in!
M: what?? ... what's a card day?
F: you know, when you have people around to play cards.
M: he has hookers to HIS HOUSE???
F: no, they meet at one of the single guy's houses.
M: wait, how many people are we talking?
F: five. three marrieds, including SOandSO, and two singles.
M: so, you're telling me that three married men and two single men meet up each week and have group sex with hookers???
F: well, i don't know about "group," but yes. isn't that unbelievable? what a (*&&^.
M: who is SOandSO?
F: you remember, the guy that came and cut your concrete when (my) H and (her) H were building your garage.
M: i don't know him.
(silence)
M: do you know his wife?
F: no, never met her. (her own H) told me just this weekend.
M: do you think it's true?
F: yes, sadly, i think it is.
M: does SOandSO have children? or just a poor, unsuspecting wife?
F: kids, but i don't know how many.
M: you need to tell his wife. this is absolutely sickening.

so then we went back and forth, with me arguing to tell her asap, and her speaking against, as it's "not her business," she'll ruin her H's "working relationship" w/SOandSO, etc etc. i then went home and looked up the tax book from when we did the garage, and found the invoice for the concrete cutting (different from concrete layer), confirming his name. this is the only time this person has been to my home. my H does not know him - her H recommended him for the cutting.

so why don't i want to call myself? this is kind of hard to explain. when you are american, living abroad in a country that openly reviles americans, you learn rather quickly not to engage w/people you don't know (ex: once H and i attended a housewarming party for a couple whose house he helped build. the wife asked if i wanted to walk through the rooms, and the women in the group cackled and one called out "don't steal anything." there was more later, and we left the party quite early due to my discomfort), but you still stand out like, as they say here, dog's b@lls as soon as you open your mouth. if i have to call someplace, i actually get H to do it, as i find a much chillier reception when they hear my voice. now, some of you will think i'm just silly, but you have not been on the receiving end of near-rage from total strangers out in public, not to mention people you know. this was particularly bad during the bush years. i once brought my absentee ballot to school to share w/the social studies head (thinking he'd want to share it w/his classes), and he looked me straight in the eye and said "americans are too stupid to be allowed to vote" and shoved it back at me. it really sucks. i'm also somewhat recognisable as the american in our town; whenever the paper wants to run something w/an american slant (think politics and lifestyle) they ring me. my H is well known in our small area for being the one with the american wife.

plus, as the "american friend" of F, it could possibly bring heat on her and her H, as it was her H that knew the fella that did the concrete cutting, and apparently he tosses work their way (yes, i say screw the work w/this infidel, but understand that they are poor). MY goal is that wife needs to be informed, not cause the greatest small-town bruhaha since peyten place. happy, maybe you could weigh in w/your thoughts on that?

i think F should be the one to make the call, as she is the one w/any real info - all i know is what i've relayed in the convo above (at the time, i was so dumbstruck, i didn't ask anything else, except did she know who the other 2 marrieds were, and she said no). i have spoken w/her at length about MB, and being married for 20 years and totally devoted to her H, she is open to the principles (it was to them that i ran when H had his a), but her own culture of "leave well enough alone" is strong.

so...i strongly believe that SOandSO's wife must be told - this conversation has weighed on my mind ever since, especially when a week passes and i think of her H (and the 2 others) being such pigs and so careless with their families and responsibilities as husbands and fathers. i am scared to do it in person/on phone, especially since i have no further info. what could i say to any questions? but i think i could send her a letter? if i knew her, it would be different - i'd have no problem going to her house and telling her face to face. but as it stands, i feel i'd just be adding to the rumour mill. i think it's important that she basically arm herself w/proof - follow H to "card night" and catch them so he can't deny deny deny. or maybe it's just a load of crap, but where's there's smoke...

no, just posting here about it makes me feel stronger in my resolve. thanks for letting me air my thoughts on this. i will let you know how it pans out, but please do post your thoughts too. reading your comments gives me strength.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/28/12 11:46 PM
I think it's always best if you have proof to back up what is said before informing someone. So often (from what I've heard/read) if there is no proof, then telling the BS just acts as an alert for the scumbuckets to counter the information by changing their behaviors and covering up what has gone on in the past.

I.E. if you tell her, she may not be able to control her anger and blast her WH with accusations. A big fight will ensue where she will end up believing him and he will then tell his buddies and they'll either stop the practice or go further underground.

Now, I know you may feel it's not your place or duty to go get proof. SO: if you tell this woman, you need to advise her strongly to say nothing to her husband, no matter how upset she is, and to search it out for herself.

Having said all that... if she has a facebook page or something, you can always tell her anonymously. That's not the best way to do it, but it is better than her not hearing about it at all.
She could catch something DEADLY from her cheating husband via the skank!!!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/28/12 11:48 PM
Good lord, love show them what Americans are made of!

You speak the the truth and don't care what anyone thinks.

At least that's the Letty I know.

It sounds like in the place where you live you will have to develop a thick skin anyway, so you might as well develop it to save some poor woman from misery.

Tell her your sources too.

I know its scary! But scarier than having an entire town laugh at your H's affair as in this poor womans case? Help her. And show people you're not scared of that xenophobic anti american crap.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/29/12 03:14 AM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
I think it's always best if you have proof to back up what is said before informing someone. So often (from what I've heard/read) if there is no proof, then telling the BS just acts as an alert for the scumbuckets to counter the information by changing their behaviors and covering up what has gone on in the past.

I.E. if you tell her, she may not be able to control her anger and blast her WH with accusations. A big fight will ensue where she will end up believing him and he will then tell his buddies and they'll either stop the practice or go further underground.


that's my biggest fear! major meltdown, then deep cover.

Originally Posted By: indiegirl
You speak the the truth and don't care what anyone thinks.


but i don't KNOW that, that's the thing. i have no proof, other than some malicious gossip, really. however, i DO believe that it is true in my heart, unfortunately, and so, something MUST be done. may do some sleuthing on my own, first. i can be quite the jenna bond when i put my mind to it! w/any kind of evidence, i would feel able to speak "the truth" and not just unhinge her marriage for naught (underground).
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/29/12 03:33 AM
Dang this poor unsuspecting BW.

We have had members on here do the anonymous "let them know", but most of them didn't believe them because they didn't have any facts to back them up.

Here are a few posters that went through with this. Might be some good insight.
Should I reveal someone else's affair?
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/29/12 02:38 PM
Yep - anonymous, without proof, is pretty hopeless to affect real change for that marriage. The only way it would possibly light a fire under the BS in question is if she already suspects something is up and it motivates her to check it out.

If she is told by someone she knows - still, without proof - it may not go much better but there is at least some credibility there.

As a sidenote, I can't imagine living in a place that is so hostile to you!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/29/12 02:57 PM
There were lots of rumours about my WH and OW - people saw all the signs but were afraid to tell me without hard proof.

I wish someone had just told me what everyone was saying. I am certain I would not have believed it at first, but I would have been alerted.

When people on here alerted me to the possibilty of an affair (and of course they had no proof) I didn't believe and I argued.

It was only a few days though before I saw the signs myself, because the seed of doubt had been sown.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/30/12 11:00 AM
Letty I'm sorry you've had that experience. I didn't think kiwis would act that way. I know in Dunedin it was different, maybe because it is a University town and there are quite a few American professors and international students etc. I knew a few Americans at my children's school and they fortunately never experienced that. They do say the further south you go the friendlier it is, maybe its not an urban myth.

BTW I missed the Dr Phil epsidoe you referred to earlier. I also missed Nigel Lattas episode with the reference to MLC etc.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 04/30/12 11:00 PM
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
There were lots of rumours about my WH and OW - people saw all the signs but were afraid to tell me without hard proof.

I wish someone had just told me what everyone was saying. I am certain I would not have believed it at first, but I would have been alerted.

When people on here alerted me to the possibilty of an affair (and of course they had no proof) I didn't believe and I argued.

It was only a few days though before I saw the signs myself, because the seed of doubt had been sown.



This is a good point. While it's better to have proof, it doesn't mean someone shouldn't speak up if they can't have it. I would want someone to tell me too. Even if I wanted to go into denial, I would sure at least have my eyes opened, looking for signs.

Maybe it's all in the approach. If you go to someone telling them to check it out for themselves, rather than shoving it down their throats, it at least be on them to take it from there.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/01/12 10:48 AM
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
There were lots of rumours about my WH and OW - people saw all the signs but were afraid to tell me without hard proof.

I wish someone had just told me what everyone was saying. I am certain I would not have believed it at first, but I would have been alerted.

When people on here alerted me to the possibilty of an affair (and of course they had no proof) I didn't believe and I argued.

It was only a few days though before I saw the signs myself, because the seed of doubt had been sown.


These words are spot on.

I was never told the truth about WH and OW. I imagine all of his colleagues, including some good friends, who were at my farewell BBQ before I returned to Aus, were gossiping.

Shortly after,WH indicated he wanted a separation. Very soon after, I found MB. MB'ers began telling me it was an A, and strangely enough, with the marriage we had, it was the only thing that made sense at the time. But I still believed WH because it was reflex.

Shortly after that, UK friends told me it was an A but refused to tell me anything further. The thing is, looking back, I KNEW. My alarm bells were ringing loud and clear, before the "friend" told me. What MB'ers told me made sense.

I know part of my grieving process has been in learning that not only can one person you trusted become untrustworthy, but so can a lot of others. That people can aid and abet the WS.

Tell her Letty. Regardless of the fallout to you, it is the right thing to do.

I wish someone had told me.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/01/12 08:06 PM
i haven't posted about me for several days, so want to give an update.

WH moved back home one week ago. for the last week i have felt disconnected. after giving it lots of thought, i realised that the ONE person who asked me "this is the LAST chance, right?" really coloured my perception. i felt broken, was having trouble integrating him back into our life, and was unable to enjoy SF.

WH has been doing great. he's actively working the EPs, and it's amazing how much that does to settle a BSs mind. his active attention to my needs has been terrific. we've been UAing every day, and i have just loved his attention to our home (as well as me).

we have been working on some of the MB things he struggled w/before, like the 10 steps to showing affection. he came to me and said that he was having some difficulty, as some things didn't "fit" our relationship (like having breakfast - neither of us eat brekkie, and we both leave for work very early). so we rewrote the 10 things to fit us, and he has been doing each of those 10 things daily.

i have all passwords and check everything. he rarely uses the computer, and when he does, he uses it with me. huge step there. (BTW, BSs, desktop shark is worth every penny).

before WH moved back in, he had a response to his NC letter. it was a plain "no worries." i was blown away by his reaction: he texted immediately and asked if he could come back to the house (we had just had dinner together). he showed me the text, asked what he should do, then deleted text and contact number (i had deliberately left contact in, just in case of a reply so i would know who it was from). he was quite upset that she had sent a text reply (because he knew it would hurt me), but - get this - i was calm, rational, and thanked him for his honesty and his need to make sure he set things right with me. (no AO, which must have been a huge shock to him!)

right now we are working w/the books, and WH is actively working to find us a NZ in-person counsellor that will follow MB. he needs the face time. (so far, two potentials to interview.) the book LBs is a great resource as well!

so, the keyword here is "active." having a WS who is actively demonstrating the principles really does help reestablish your bond.

now ive got to race to work, even though Wed is our late start day! it's freezing here today, and we're getting a little rain. needless to say, little cat slept under the covers all night long!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/01/12 09:09 PM
Letty sounds GREAT.

Has WH considered changing his number so she can't text anymore? I think that would be a good step.

You seem to be heading in the right direction. And remember, it takes time. Recovery is a marathon, not a sprint.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/02/12 02:01 AM
Originally Posted By: Scotland
Letty sounds GREAT.

Has WH considered changing his number so she can't text anymore? I think that would be a good step.

You seem to be heading in the right direction. And remember, it takes time. Recovery is a marathon, not a sprint.

I agree change all his contact info so OW can't contact him. A contact will reset your recovery clock. A false recovery can be more painful then a DDay.

Enjoy the steps of your new M..please read this.
False Recovery
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/02/12 06:22 AM
thanks scottie and bh. bh, you're always so good about posting links to everyone. i have read the false recovery one before, as it was my biggest fear. do you think that's a possibility in my case?

ps: i am drafting a letter now about the other situation and will post it for your input.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/02/12 07:53 AM
Awesome Letty, I'm really happy all is going well. Try not to let others negativvely influence your recovery. Only you can make the right decision for you. I don't think anyone who hasn't walked in our shoes can really understand why we fight to save our marriage or what strength it takes. Nor can they decide if your marriage is worth saving. You've done so welL in Plans A & B, you deserve a shot at recovery. Just remember it takes time.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/02/12 08:12 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
thanks scottie and bh. bh, you're always so good about posting links to everyone. i have read the false recovery one before, as it was my biggest fear. do you think that's a possibility in my case?

ps: i am drafting a letter now about the other situation and will post it for your input.

No, not at all. I just want you to be educated on False Recoveries so you'll be forewarned. Remember, knowledge is power.

Is your H going to change his contact numbers as one of his EP?
Like Scotty said "recovery is a marathon and not a sprint".

I'm so glad your going ahead on the exposure to that BW. Thank you from all unknown BW hurray
Posted By: Caracal Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/02/12 08:50 AM
I'm really pleased for you Letty , with how things are going. That WH is making efforts to be the H you deserve.

You sound very strong and committed to your marriage recovery.

Please list your WH changing his number as an EP.

You need to feel safe that OW has no way of contacting him. Another attempt at contact is a trigger for you that sets back your recovery. One that is easily avoided.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/02/12 11:18 AM
Here's even a better thread that Pepperband put together.
False Recovery: need voices of experience
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/03/12 04:06 AM
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
Originally Posted By: Letty
thanks scottie and bh. bh, you're always so good about posting links to everyone. i have read the false recovery one before, as it was my biggest fear. do you think that's a possibility in my case?

ps: i am drafting a letter now about the other situation and will post it for your input.

No, not at all. I just want you to be educated on False Recoveries so you'll be forewarned. Remember, knowledge is power.

Is your H going to change his contact numbers as one of his EP?
Like Scotty said "recovery is a marathon and not a sprint".

I'm so glad your going ahead on the exposure to that BW. Thank you from all unknown BW hurray


Wait...so I can stop running?????

LOL

JK

Letty - SOOOO glad things are going well! Good job to you for not just throwing out the "10 things" but adapting it to fit your lifestyles! You guys are doing great!

Did H have dinner with daughter? How'd it go?
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/03/12 04:18 AM
no, dinner is not for another week, when we visit the town she is living in. she is still not talking to him, but is receptive to dinner.

i will have a think about the phone. the computer is a much more important EP for me.

here is my first draft. i need help with this:

Dear BW,

I have some information I think it is important for you to know.

Firstly, you should NOT confront your husband with this info. You need, instead, to discover the facts about it, and only confront him when you have proof.

It is being said around town that when your WH goes out to “play cards” with his friends, they have prostitutes in to “entertain” themselves.

It is also my understanding that two of these “friends” are also married (and two are single). Should you confirm this, I would hope you would tell their wives as well, as they are being exposed to disease as well as being lied to by the person they should be able to count on, just as you may be.

I know this is devastating for you to hear. You may already have suspicions. I am so sorry to be the bearer of this news, but I could not ignore the possibility that your partner in life is committing a most horrendous crime against you and your family, and that you deserve to be told. At the very least, people are talking about such behaviour going on.

I am sorry I do not have any further information, and so cannot answer any questions you may have.

=======
i do not know if i should develop the following suggestions:

1. simply show up late in the evening at the card game.

2. better: hire a private investigator to follow WH on one of his game nights to confirm if you can.

3. follow the money. it is likely one of the singles pays to avoid detection. does your WH have access to cash? can you check the books or does he do perk (under the table) work? would he have disposable cash you wouldn’t know about?

4. possibly get together with the other wives and share knowledge/resources.

5. get your ducks in a row so he cannot lie his way out (“it’s only the single guys having sex!”)

recommendations please?
Posted By: Caracal Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/03/12 08:37 AM
Letty, how about recommending MB to support her with snooping, exposure, etc?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/03/12 08:41 AM
Originally Posted By: Caracal
Letty, how about recommending MB to support her with snooping, exposure, etc?

Good idea. Maybe supply the web address.

I think the letter is written very well. You gave as much proof as you had and you wrote it with compassion.

Thank you.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/03/12 09:57 AM
I agree the letter is good.

Having thought about it, I still think you should give her a contact number or email. Some sort of link. You are dealing her a devestating blow by delivering the truth. It is the right thing to do, we all know that. However, I know my reaction after D Day was total shock. I kept trying to contact the person who had admitted there was an affair, and they ran the other way, not giving me any other information or even confirming what they had told me. I even started to doubt what they had told me, as when the words were said I was in immediate shock and denial. I saw a friend go through D Day and do exactly the same think.

I know in this sitch there is nothing more you can add, but actually, just repeating the information you have, standing firm with it, being there, could make all the difference.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/03/12 10:16 AM
I agree. She will feel so much better if she knows it isn't some kind of "cruel joke".

In Scotty's stitch she was told anonymously, about a year ahead of when she confirmed it and she didn't believe them.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/03/12 11:01 AM
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
In Scotty's stitch she was told anonymously, about a year ahead of when she confirmed it and she didn't believe them.

Great example BH. Letty, don't worry about whether the BW believes you. You ARE doing the right thing. Even if she doesn't believe you, you are alerting her.

And by giving her a contact number / email, you are showing accountability. Doing it annonymously would make it harder to believe. BH is right about the "cruel joke" thing. By giving your name and contact info, you are making it harder to deny / ignore. You are prepared to stand by what you are saying.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/03/12 07:43 PM
ok, scottie's example was a good one. my goodness, a year. that's a long time being tortured. i will add email address so at least she has a shoulder to cry on, and perhaps then i can lead her here.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/03/12 08:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
ok, scottie's example was a good one. my goodness, a year. that's a long time being tortured. i will add email address so at least she has a shoulder to cry on, and perhaps then i can lead her here.


So glad to hear it. Let us know whenyou send it.

Thank you again, from all of the unsuspecting BS out there.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/04/12 10:35 PM
oh dear, i've run into a stumbling block. i cannot find out where they live. (her) WHs business is easy enough, and i know his name. the phone books here list people by initials, and there are a number of people with the very common last name (most common in english, geez) and the same first initial in our town and surrounding suburbs. i also made the mistake of assuming that because i am all over the internet, everyone else is as well. nothing on facebook or via google (except business). i think i am going to have to a) figure out what he looks like and b) follow him home from work one day. this is not turning out as straightforward as i had hoped. i may have to ring friend who told me and see if i can worm any further into out of her. if i could just get the BWs name, it would help immensely.

in the meantime, i'm off for an afternoon of bowling, hot pools, and dinner out. tomorrow is our local car club's "show and shine" swapmeet day, and will be up early to help H out at his stall. taking two cars, which are now polished up to a brand-new shine. please, please let someone buy one! hmm, just had this thought - maybe other lady's WH will show up. i'll ask my husband to look out for him and point him out to me (hope he remembers what he looks like, but he has a much better memory than me). very popular event here, so here's hoping.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/04/12 11:56 PM
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
I agree. She will feel so much better if she knows it isn't some kind of "cruel joke".

In Scotty's stitch she was told anonymously, about a year ahead of when she confirmed it and she didn't believe them.


Actually, it was 2 years before. I believe it was at the beginning of an EA at that time. I fell for the gaslighting by BOTH OW and WH, and even wound up friending OW on FB. Yea, that was a MARVELOUS time. MrRollieEyes It did help me open my eyes to the fact that OW was a threat, but I am afraid that I actually LB'd quite a bit because of it. It wasn't until I found this site that I took real action to save my marriage, and my sanity.

I look back at those 2 years and think about how much different everything could have played out had I known about MB.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/05/12 12:08 AM
Sorry Scotty I misspoke it was 2 years. Thanks for the correction.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/05/12 12:50 AM
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
Sorry Scotty I misspoke it was 2 years. Thanks for the correction.


No probs. I was surprised anyone even knew that about my sitch. I removed it from my siggy because I needed to move away from betrayal, etc. It is a lesson to learn for others when they are exposing to someone else. And I don't mind being the lesson if it can help even one BS.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/05/12 12:53 AM
Originally Posted By: Scotland
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
Sorry Scotty I misspoke it was 2 years. Thanks for the correction.


No probs. I was surprised anyone even knew that about my sitch. I removed it from my siggy because I needed to move away from betrayal, etc. It is a lesson to learn for others when they are exposing to someone else. And I don't mind being the lesson if it can help even one BS.

I read all the time and before I registered I was reading and I remember when you came onboard. I wasn't going to go back and try and find it in your epic thread.

Thank you for being a lesson for us. kiss
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/06/12 07:49 AM
so strange...everyone has been posting terrible dreams this weekend, and i had one too! on friday night, i dreamed that i came downstairs and heard H talking on the phone with a woman he was clearly having an A w/due to the conversation (which i don't remember now). this never happened IRL, and in the dream i could see the woman (brain/dream produced woman, not anyone IRL). i immediately fell into that moment of shock, collapsing and sobbing hysterically, feeling my heart ripped out. i apparently then woke up (sleepwalked?), took my pillows, and slept in our DDs room, as that's where i woke up in the morning! when i woke, i remembered the dream for a moment, and then it broke apart and evaporated into the ether. weird.

the weekend was good. had a good time on saturday (though an hour in the hot pools is too long), afterwards drove to the beach to look at the moon (it was the closest to the earth it's going to be all year, and a fm at that), and had a long conversation, and H *really* talked; very unusual for him, as kiwi blokes tend to be terse at best. today wasn't bad, despite the early morning - got some marking done. the swapmeet was very slow, and people started leaving very early (before the 12.30 car drop), which was unusual. the couple next to us had these sculptures, and i remembered them selling out by midday last year; this year they sold ONE. we came home early, then went out for ice cream, SF, and dinner. all in all, i can't complain. i got to drive the new camero, and it hauls bum!

looks like the weather's going to pack up and allow a winter gale to come through this week. ugh. i do not like winter at all and tend to get quite depressed, so glad i have the ADs this year.

ps: did not see "the guy" all day, so no closer :O(
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/06/12 08:02 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
so strange...everyone has been posting terrible dreams this weekend, and i had one too! on friday night,

Maybe it's because of the extra large moon we had think
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/06/12 06:53 PM
lmao - may be!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/06/12 08:05 PM
If that's the case, I hope we don't have one like that again!!!
frown

It's funny...a lot of people get depressed in the winter. You know what? I get depressed in the summer! Weird, huh? So, at least you're normal, Letty. LOL. I HATE the heat. It zaps my energy and makes me feel unmotivated and tired all the time.

Sounds like you had a nice weekend. Sure wish you could get that contact info!!! Have you tried through Peoplefinder.com or places like that?
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/07/12 03:39 AM
most sites like intelius and the like are heavily american-based. we don't have the same open access to info here, which is kind of strange, really, considering the differences in culture. here you have to give up a DNA swab on police request, as the right of the many overrides the right of the individual. the USA is the opposite, yet you can look up anything you like online! go figure (an americanism kiwis hate!).
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/08/12 07:35 PM
so today i'm off to interview the first MC. i am feeling very angry and trying not to let it stand in the way of progress. the MC we saw after the a was a total loser. i was shut down from the get go - told i could not air any of my hurt, anger, betrayal. that i had to "start forward from today with no blame." what i got for my efforts was 6 more months of lies, deceit, and trickle truth, as the a continued long distance for those 6 months. i know i am projecting my old feelings onto this new one, and i need to get my anger over with so i can give this person a chance. but man, am i angry this morning! i don't want to go in already hostile. i am much better armed with a plan this time. maybe, just maybe, this person will actually be on board with MB. here's hoping.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/09/12 04:23 AM
Just remember if they aren't on board, they can do more harm than good!!!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/09/12 04:23 AM
And don't worry - it's natural to have angry days off an on for quite some time: esp. when you were previously trickle truthed, etc...
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/09/12 04:50 AM
ugh, i've just gotten home from the appt. it went well; she totally disagreed with how the other counselor handled things (and i gave her a grilling, too - i took the MB "how to find an MC with me). she isn't familiar with MB, but we are making a book trade next week (she had something on her shelf i'd like to read too). though she didn't know MB terms, her way of addressing things is the MB way - she just didn't know it.

H told her everything from 6 years ago till now on his own, without prompting.

i am sick to my stomach. talking about all these things is really upsetting, but i agree that we've got to drag it all out into the light so i can heal, which was my goal when finding MB in the first place. i can't spend any more time thinking about this every day. and i want our M to be strong and happy on both sides. when H gets home, we are going to have dinner, then go get ice cream & sit down by the beach for more convo.

i didn't mention this earlier, but when we went to the beach last weekend, we talked about the a, and i got info i hadn't gotten before, as he was willing, for the first time, to discuss how he got to that place. it literally took my breath away. learning that he had asked her to come to NV but she didn't have a passport - ouch! i was so upset, and worried about clock/day 1, but by the next day i felt better about it. finally getting the truth, and seeing his remorse, helped a LOT. i'm so looking forward to being able to finally put this behind us!
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/09/12 05:20 AM
Letty, Its not easy to hear and it will stir emotions. It is good he is willing to discuss and is remorseful, that is part of the MB recovery plan. I'm here to support you through this ... you know how to contact me.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/09/12 11:39 AM
Just remember - it's good to get all the truth once and for all but it will not be helpful towards recovery to keep rehashing it. No more A talk!
smile
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/10/12 07:16 AM
thanks sunny. i realised later last night that it was rather PTSD (having to face the appt). the old MC from 6 years ago really did a number on me.

so, after a long stressful day yesterday, i face the lovely long weekend...sick! grrrr! going to down some nyquil (which i bring here by the bucketload) and hit the sack early!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/10/12 02:04 PM
Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley
My advice to her husband is to never mention her affair again. It's a good example of one of the enemies of good conversation, dwelling on past mistakes. Whenever you keep bringing up your spouses past mistakes, you not only make your conversations incredibly unpleasant, but it cannot possibly lead to a resolution of a conflict you may be discussing. And as soon as his resentment doesn't pay him any dividends -- no longer helps him get his way -- he will find that it hardly ever occurs to him.


Remember once everything is out on the table Dr. Harley says to never bring up the affair again.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/10/12 02:08 PM
Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley
I personally believe that therapy should focus most attention, not on the past, but on ways to make the future sensational. And when a spouse comes to me with unresolved feelings of resentment about something their spouse did in the past, I tend to put it on hold and focus on issues that prevent mistakes of the past from recurring. I ask them to trust my judgment, and see what happens to the resentment when the marriage has a chance to become fulfilling. In almost every case, resentment fades, as I predicted. While the painful memories are not entirely forgotten, the most recent marital experiences which are fulfilling and enjoyable, dominate a person's thinking, and resentment becomes weak and infrequent


Think about if your counselor is doing more harm then good.

Hope you get to feeling better.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/10/12 02:17 PM
Isn't it crazy that something that's supposed to be good - counseling - can end up so bad?!!!

You just have to be careful. Some MC's are all about talking the past to death and it simply does no good: it only makes things worse. That's not to say that you don't need resolution on what happened. That's why Dr. H recommends you have the big talk to get all the truth out. After that though, you're supposed to drop it and that can be very hard for us BS's. It doesn't seem fair that we don't get to talk about it with our spouses. We want them to know the pain they caused and that we can't just get over it, etc...

BUT... it helps neither party - the BS or the WS to discuss it anymore. We (BS's) may WANT to, but it is not in our own best interest: it just drags up the awful feelings.

Of course, I think we all need to know that our FWS's understand the hurt and pain caused and to validate our feelings. That should occur as a result of the big talk. Then, however, it may come up again later in us (that need for validation) and we want reassurance that the FWS still "knows" and gets what they've done. That need for reassurance is what usually prompts us to want to bring it up again. BUT...it's not healthy. This is where we have to use our minds to act appropriately rather than our feelings that want momentary relief.

And....that's what we have the boards for - to talk these things out. It's not good to suffer in silence.

I sure hope you feel better!!! Can hubby make chicken soup? smile
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/10/12 07:03 PM
i am off on the 7.30am bus this morning for the town my dd lives in. H is driving up this afternoon. i'm doped to the gills, plus using a naturopath (sp?) remedy...feel a little bit better, but so don't want to have a disappointing weekend because i don't feel well!

dd in beauty school - she's going to do my hair this afternoon after i've got my students ready to go. their competition isn't until tomorrow morning (there are lots of other staff this year to take care of them - the last time i went, it was only me and a new teacher! for 50 kids!) this is a big cultural comp between the top 8 boys schools in the north island. lots of fun.

H and i are staying until sunday, spending time with DD. looking forward to it if i survive the bus ride!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/12/12 04:51 AM
bus ride fine, but i am now incredibly blonde - dd used my head for foils as well! having lovely weekend - gorgeous apartment overlooking the beach. feeling a tad less sucky than yesterday, but full respitory infection. i'm prone to them :O(

i never got any info about the a other than what i found. original MC said from day 1 (which was only days later) that we could only look forward and not back. it was very humiliating. i hated it and her :O( new one, and i, think it's important to look at the behaviour that lead to it - that's an MB principle, yes? then, believe me, i will thrilled never to talk about it again. looking forward to not thinking about it either. that's why i joined MB. i wanted to "let go" (hence my name, letting go)of all that pain and anguish and move forward. i have been "stuck" for far too long.

ok, back to my lovely weekend! there's actually a mexican place here. i hope the food is remotely like real mexican food!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/12/12 04:58 AM
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
Wanted to share Dr. Harleys advice to another poster.
Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley

"You already know what I'm going to say. You must simply stop talking about your husband's affairs. There should be complete transparency in your lives, where you always know where each other are, and what you are doing; the conditions that made his affairs possible must be eliminated; and you must have a romantic relationship, where you are meeting each other's most important emotional needs every week. If you achieve those three objectives, your marriage will turn out great. But if you keep bringing up his affairs, your relationship will suffer greatly. Stop doing it!"

Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley

More information about his affairs will not help you avoid them in the future or help you make a decision as to whether or not you will stay with him. The decision has been made, and the plan you are following is appropriate regardless of how much new information you would receive. Resist the temptation to resurrect the past, and your future will be much brighter.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/12/12 05:00 AM
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
Just heard a fantastic radio clip about "keep talking about the affair".

His affair was 6 years ago but she just found out a month and a half ago.

Please tell me what you think. This is just one segment of their four segment call if you would like me to post the others.
Radio clip about " to not keep bringing the affair up"
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/12/12 08:19 AM
thanks, bh, i'll listen to that when i get home. i must have been mistaken. i thought all info should be out, *then* you stop talking about it. since i had never been filled in in the first place...but if it's no, it's no! what a pity our first MC screwed up so badly. she did me a great disservice; stupid cow. if only i'd known about MB then.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/12/12 02:06 PM
I thought too that you are supposed to have all the information and THEN stop talking about it.

Otherwise, the BS's head is filled with all kinds of thoughts trying to make sense of the puzzle.

To me it's always been a distinct difference: you talk about it to get the facts, get the truth out there so there are no secrets... then, you move forward focusing on the future. We talk on the forums about different BS's needing different amounts of information as to specifics, but I thought that the MB principle was that the BS should know whatever he or she needs to know. (And then has to shut up about it after that's all out.)

???
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/12/12 03:50 PM
That is correct. Reveal everything about the affair. That is a condition of recover.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/13/12 05:20 AM
ok, that's good to know.

our (discussed) plan is to use 1 appt for a talk, then padlock it forever. then next appt for practicing POJA properly together, 1 for practicing avoiding LBs (particularly OAs), and 1-2 for developing openness and honest communication together.

am back home now from weekend. i am still sick w/respiratory infection. however, we had a lovely time. he outdid himself with accommodation, and surprised me this morning with lovely card & gift for mother's day, which i had totally forgotten about. card made me tear up a bit. it was lovely to sit in the private spa and steam away some of my congestion. also had opportunity for SF once i could actually breathe. today we dealt with DDs car problems (good for admiration meeting), then had a long, positive talk in the car on the drive home. just some o&h talk about our past lives/relationships and lessons learned from them. both of us had always been of the "what your life was before we met doesn't matter" types, so this is new and quite interesting, really. i could also see a clear pattern of behaviour on my own part when examining my past. this is another good thing dr harley recommends! he drove his new car, but not in a way that made me want to vomit, which was great and respectful of me. it was nice being able to share his pleasure of driving/cars.

oh, and my boys got some 2nd and 3rd places, which was nice. no firsts though :O( long week ahead, starting with scholarship class at 7am tomorrow. going to be an early night. thank you, nyquil!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/13/12 05:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Letty
ok, that's good to know.

our (discussed) plan is to use 1 appt for a talk, then padlock it forever. then next appt for practicing POJA properly together, 1 for practicing avoiding LBs (particularly OAs), and 1-2 for developing openness and honest communication together.

am back home now from weekend. i am still sick w/respiratory infection. however, we had a lovely time. he outdid himself with accommodation, and surprised me this morning with lovely card & gift for mother's day, which i had totally forgotten about. card made me tear up a bit. it was lovely to sit in the private spa and steam away some of my congestion. also had opportunity for SF once i could actually breathe. today we dealt with DDs car problems (good for admiration meeting), then had a long, positive talk in the car on the drive home. just some o&h talk about our past lives/relationships and lessons learned from them. both of us had always been of the "what your life was before we met doesn't matter" types, so this is new and quite interesting, really. i could also see a clear pattern of behaviour on my own part when examining my past. this is another good thing dr harley recommends! he drove his new car, but not in a way that made me want to vomit, which was great and respectful of me. it was nice being able to share his pleasure of driving/cars.

oh, and my boys got some 2nd and 3rd places, which was nice. no firsts though :O( long week ahead, starting with scholarship class at 7am tomorrow. going to be an early night. thank you, nyquil!
Yes you talk about everything and then once you talk about it you don't talk about the affair anymore.

Listen to the clip I posted. She found out a month and half ago and Dr. H asks her "How many hours do you think you have talked about it?" She said 20-30 hours and he said that should be plenty.

There were things the WH couldn't remember but the affair happened 6 years ago.

So Letty I ask you? How many hours do you think you have talked about the affair with your WH?

I do think you should use one last appointment to talk about it if you think there are still questions that need answered.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/13/12 05:57 AM
we have never really talked about it at all, after the revelation.

so, basically, 2 hours, tops, on revelation night (where he did the talking), and about 20 minutes last weekend, when i finally, finally, asked how it happened.

to be absolutely specific, on DD, i got the "i'm in love with someone else and went all the way to canada to have sex with the skanyhola" revelation. he told me he loved her and wanted her to move here with her child and basically take over my life. oh, yes, he told me all about how wonderful she was, and he loved her even though she smoked, something he's always despised, and had a young child, something he'd never wanted more of. i was shell shocked. i did not ask questions. i left the house, cried, came back, told him to get out of our house, threw clothes at him, then, just like some sad sack on sally jesse raphael, i literally begged him to stay.

he did.

the very next day we went to doctor for STD testing, and made appt to see MC the day following. i did not discuss a, as i was terrified he would leave, since he wasn't "in love" with me. the "MC" we went to for 6 months following insisted we should not discuss it at all, so we didn't ("the past is the past"). instead, i cried alone every day in the shower, then tried to be the best wife i could despite the constant and dreadful state of fear and anxiety. after those 6 months, he finally got through withdrawal and committed to us. i certainly wasn't going to bring it up when we finally seemed to be getting back on track. but it has haunted me for 6 very long years, which is why i'm here. it's like a festering wound that will not heal.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/13/12 06:29 AM
Well you definitely do not have all your questions answered per that horrible MC.

So is your WH willing to answer all your questions? I would make a list and write all your questions down, because sometimes when we are under stressful situations we may forget.

Since his affairs happened so long ago, maybe give him the questions before hand so in the MC he has had some time to think about the answers.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/13/12 07:06 AM
yes, he is willing. that's a really good idea. i will do that.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/13/12 07:47 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
yes, he is willing. that's a really good idea. i will do that.


I hope you finally start to find peace, my friend.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/13/12 06:58 PM
thank you so much. not many people "get" that. i am happy to work through MB for 2 years to get to that point. i am so happy to have finally found something that actually helps and doesn't leave the BS out in the cold!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/14/12 12:13 AM
Letty, after you find out everything that you want to know about the affair, you do stop discussing it. That doesn't mean that the triggers will disappear though. You will be reminded about the affair, and it is important to share those times with your WH.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/14/12 01:21 AM
Originally Posted By: Scotland
Letty, after you find out everything that you want to know about the affair, you do stop discussing it. That doesn't mean that the triggers will disappear though. You will be reminded about the affair, and it is important to share those times with your WH.


True that. Here is an excellent thread to try and help you with those triggers that will happen.

Managing Memories and Dealing with Triggers
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/14/12 06:28 AM
ok, i have created my list of questions, with 36 hours for me to mull them over before printing them. he is having his own appt with the MC wednesday. i am going to give them to him in an envelope to open in her office, not to be discussed with me until we are together in her office the following week. i want the discussion to be there, not in our home, so we can leave it there forever. but i am afraid of the week in between. maybe i should change the appt to sooner?

going to see her is very stressful for me. i am crying as i write this (composing the Qs was horrible) and must do something about myself before i go inside (i'm on the patio) to prepare dinner. ugh, i do NOT feel like eating; i feel like vomiting! but things are going well, and i don't want to prevent myself from meeting ENs.

i don't think i mentioned that on sunday when we were having breakfast he surprised me with a lovely mother's day gift and card. the card was so sweet i cried a bit. it was a wonderful day. his coming clean w/our DD also helped a lot.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/14/12 07:01 AM
I would up your apt so you can get this over sooner. You've been waiting long enough.

Look at the pain it's causing you. (((Letty))) enjoy the new man he is today and not the man he used to be.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/14/12 10:12 AM
Letty, I agree with BH. It would be good to reschedule an earlier appointment. You don't want the grief impacting on your recovery or effecting your UA with your husband. hug I'm here if you need me.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/14/12 02:44 PM
I agree as well! It's just prolonged stress and suffering to wait needlessly.

And believe me...I understand!

As for the triggers, it's true that nothing prevents them from ever popping up, unfortunately, but they do lessen with time. It is important that you allow your H to help you through them, but also important to note that you still don't bring up the A with him when you do trigger. This has been something discussed on my thread in Recovery; something I was surprised about, actually. It can get a bit tricky.

Glad you had a wonderful weekend and Mother's Day!!!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/16/12 07:04 AM
had another topsy-turvy day today. wrote letter to H, using joseph's puzzle analogy, added my Qs, then sent him off to MC with it. have spent 3 days on letter...gut wrenching. was on tenterhooks all day, and it didn't help when MC phoned my mobile instead of his by mistake. ahh!

but when he came home, he hugged me and kissed me and told me he would tell me everything i wanted to know. we are doing it in her office, and leaving it there. so...more gut wrenching to come, but i'm not quite so scared anymore. this could be the beginning...

wish me luck :O)
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/16/12 07:21 AM
Good luck. kiss

Is it tonight?
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/16/12 07:25 AM
Good Luck Letty, I'll be thinking of you.

hug
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/16/12 07:30 PM
no, not till monday; she's away the rest of the week (it's thursday here now, btw). just as well - on a monday, i'll have a busy week to push any bad thoughts away, whereas on a friday i'd have the whole weekend to only push them towards H. i've just finished reading "managing memories" (thanks bh!), and that will help.

thanks y'all.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/17/12 07:40 PM
glurg, major anxiety dream last night. i came in and H was emailing...from a new account w/a fake name. i became enraged and threw him out, then devastated, because that meant straight to plan d, do not pass go, do not collect $200. i just couldn't believe that our M meant so little to him that he would risk it all doing nothing really bad (via the account, which i ransacked), but being deceptive.

so...that was the dream. i am so glad to be awake now! i feel sure that it is because of the looming appt. aamof, for the first time, i feel like there is hope. for the last 6 years, in the back of my mind has always been the stray thought, "if you can't get past this, you're going to have to get a divorce. you can't live like this." now i feel like a heavy, wet cloth has been removed from my face and i can breathe again. so i was less than thrilled with the dreaming!

i was thinking this morning that my story is a good lesson for BSs who think they can plan a for longer than 3 weeks. i did it for 6 months, and it about killed me (i did not know of MB then, new readers!); i was a real basket case. it also meant that there was no plan b, and consequently, no real recovery. as in Qs thread, the whole "H says it's over, and i have to learn to trust him again" is total bull pucky. it does nothing to address the BSs pain and anguish and fear, or address EPs to affair-proof the M for the future.

another sunny but freezing cold day here in the bay!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/17/12 08:43 PM
Six months of Plan A. I dont know how anyone can do that.

I have a pretty short fuse and two weeks of Plan A, I was ready to knock him down and sock OW in the face.

A month into Plan B I was still crying pretty hard. But healing.

Now Im sooo sooo happy.

Its frustating when you cant describe the benefits of Plan B to people. Its like describing the effect of music, the necessity and delight of food, the feeling of breathing oxygen.

Its just good stuff.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/17/12 09:44 PM
I plan A'd for a long time to...but there was a big difference: I didn't know about his affair - not really - during that time period. I got the ILYBNILWY speech but could not find any proof of an A for a long time. I didn't know MB then either...but was basically in plan A for 6 months before discovering proof of the A. Don't think I could've done it had I known all that time!

Letty - sorry for the bad dream. I'm glad you are going to get your questions answered and that H is cooperative!
Posted By: Logans_Run Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/17/12 10:19 PM
Plan A'd here for a long time here as well, discovered affair, 6months later found MB, then plan A (along with denial, many well earned 2 x 4's, foot dragging etc) for another 6 months. Plan B now......what took me so long to get here? I was probably the most fogged out BW ever.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/18/12 07:23 AM
thank you everyone. i've felt weird and out of sorts today; must be the dreams combined with the upcoming appt that has me all wonky. see dr again tuesday. need some anti-anxiety meds and maybe a change up on the ADs.

am greatly looking forward to some lovely UA time this weekend. have been sick for over a week now, which has really cut down on affection/SF, as we tend to pass illnesses back & forth, and with my CI, i can't afford to be ill all term/winter, and neither can he! but it sucks only being able to hold hands. i like kissing! :O) (and not on my forehead! - whoops, that sounds dirty but i didn't mean it that way!)
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/18/12 07:27 AM
back to plan a-ing.

when i went through my 6 months of he!!, i had no idea i was plan a-ing, but i was. trying to be the perfect wife all the while he was missing OW. massive sucky. i can't believe i lived through it, to be perfectly honest. i suffered greatly, both personally and professionally. if only i had known about MB then; we would have been heaps better off if i had gone straight to PB.

newer posters, PB is your best remedy! we know it seems hard, and sometimes an insurmountable task, but it is the cure for what ails you. and nothing, nothing is worse than putting up with a WS in the misplaced hope that he will magically remember you are stunning and OP is trash.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/19/12 11:21 PM
tomorrow is the big day. argh. yesterday i was sick to my stomach most of the day, and i could feel myself (inside, not showing it) getting all clingy and emotional - you know, that desperate BS feeling. so i put on my big girl pants and behaved like i knew exactly who i am and what i want. made me feel better.

today is going to be a good lead-in. we did all our chores yesterday so today could be all UA. we have just finished 1.5 hours of yardwork (DS), and are now getting cleaned up and ready to go bowling, then ice cream & walk along the beach. then, hopefully, SF! i'm finally feeling better and able to breathe (from illness, not head space). i've got a nice roast dinner to go in the oven when we leave. i couldn't ask for a better "before" day.

wish me luck for tomorrow!
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/20/12 12:07 AM
Enjoy your day and good luck tomorrow. You can do this you have faced so many challenges in your life, you have the strength to do this. Remember it will be painful hearing, but this was in the past and hubby is now remorseful and his current actions show he is willing to make your marriage work.

Stay strong my friend, I will be thinking of you. hug
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/20/12 09:38 PM
Letty, I am proud of you for being willing to go through this rather than trying to go around it! It may hurt - but know that trying to go around it does not lead to success. BUT...once you're through it, you're through: no going backwards. smile

(((((((LETTY))))))))
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/20/12 10:27 PM
Happy it's such a great day for you! Good luck tomorrow:) Happy too that you are in recovery, that your hubby actually loves you and is willing to do the hard work to keep your marriage together.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/21/12 04:26 AM
thank you all for your supporting words. i'm getting ready for the appt now. came home and took an extra 1/2 anti-anxiety tab. H and i have changed dinner plans from homecooked meal to dinner out alone to reconnect afterwards. am scared to death, but know i must face my inner demons if i am to ever have peace and be able to rebuild with H. hoo-boy. ok, here i go!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/21/12 07:22 AM
it's done. and guess what? not only was i not angry, i didn't even cry! part of that may have been the anti-ax. but i feel oddly at peace. no big love affair, which i had always played in my head. just a cheap encounter with an even cheaper harlot looking for a sugar daddy, and WH wasn't interested in being one of those. he is immensely sorry for the pain he caused our family. i am now looking forward to recovery. we still have a LOT to work towards. marathon, not sprint. but i think i can do it.

relief!
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/21/12 07:43 AM
Well done Letty. I am so glaad things went well for you, onwards and upwards.

dance2
Posted By: Caracal Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/21/12 07:46 AM
Originally Posted By: happyfuture66
Well done Letty. I am so glaad things went well for you, onwards and upwards.

dance2

X2!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/21/12 08:14 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
it's done. and guess what? not only was i not angry, i didn't even cry! part of that may have been the anti-ax. but i feel oddly at peace. no big love affair, which i had always played in my head. just a cheap encounter with an even cheaper harlot looking for a sugar daddy, and WH wasn't interested in being one of those. he is immensely sorry for the pain he caused our family. i am now looking forward to recovery. we still have a LOT to work towards. marathon, not sprint. but i think i can do it.

relief!


I say take it as is Marriage recovery and personal growth.

Cheers!! smile
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/21/12 03:16 PM
So glad to hear it!

You've done a great job, Letty. smile
Posted By: estrela Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/21/12 04:39 PM
Letty - so happy for you!!!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/24/12 07:06 AM
well, i haven't posted all week, mostly because i don't have anything new to say. i've felt a bit up and down, but all is going well. i just have to remind myself: marathon.

H is doing a good job on his part. sometimes i still feel crappy, so i started keeping a list of all the things he's doing. then when i feel crappy, i can look at it and watch it grow and feel more positive.

thanks for all the virtual high-5s. it did make my day :O)
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/24/12 07:22 AM
Well, you've certainly helped me this week, Letty smile Thank you! Kinda crazy you can be so uplifting to others when you have so much of your own stress. I am jealous that your hubby loves you enough to at least try. Of course I know it's different when you're in it. There is hope, though! Keep up the great work clap
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/24/12 09:46 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
well, i haven't posted all week, mostly because i don't have anything new to say. i've felt a bit up and down, but all is going well. i just have to remind myself: marathon.

H is doing a good job on his part. sometimes i still feel crappy, so i started keeping a list of all the things he's doing. then when i feel crappy, i can look at it and watch it grow and feel more positive.

thanks for all the virtual high-5s. it did make my day :O)


Keep looking at that list. Weekends getting closer ... enjoy I think the forecast is for sunny weather! Enjoy you deserve it.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/24/12 10:55 AM
As long as you keep that bar high, I'm not worried. That is the biggest mistake a BS makes. Have you read the threads on Recovery? They might help you out. There's a lot of wisdom out there. And you're right, it's a marathon, not a sprint. It takes a lot of time. You'll get there. hug
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/24/12 01:46 PM
One thing I do, Letty, is that if H sends me a sweet text or email - or gives me a card - I make sure to save it. That way, in the darker moods, I have something to go back to that reaffirm his love for me. There are particular times of the month I need that because in those emotional moments, I tend to question if he's "really sorry enough" and run bad movies of the past through my brain. I try very hard not to give into those urges as they don't do me any good. Re-reading the good things helps me get out of that place.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/24/12 07:40 PM
well, rainy, it's far easier to see others' sitches clearly than your own! lol. besides, i *was* where you are at one point. no, my H did not move in with OW, but he certainly had plans to. i'll never be able to forget those words he told me, but they do lessen with time.

scotty - yep. bar so high it's in nosebleed territory. i can't believe i was so blind and desperate not to do this before. we really do teach people how to treat us, and when we're willing to settle for crumbs, well, crumbs is what we get. but when we're not, they can relearn. MBs steps to romantic love is what really makes the difference.

happy - yes, i am looking forward to a nice weekend, especially with rain forecast next week! still wondering what to do about my horse, but that's for another post.

sunny, it's interesting that you keep all your cards. i have a lovely old-fashioned wooden album my sister gave me. i have kept every single item we've ever given each other and pasted them in with photos and other momentos. it has a plaque "the first 10 years." i have another pile ready for the 2nd ten years, but haven't had the strength to start it, as "that" year is barren. when in the midst of the a, he completely skipped my 40th birthday and our wedding anniversary. maybe when the 20th year arrives, i'll be able to collate it all together. one thing we did after NC was take a lovely holiday all around NZ together. our first extended holiday. that will be a good start.

ok, it's friday, let the weekend begin!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/25/12 07:24 AM
so, i finally got the book lovebusters in the mail. it was a bit daunting when i opened it - it's twice as big as the others! but boy, did i see us in that opening chapter. you see, before H's a, we had developed two separate lives. for years i tried to integrate our lives together, but he was such a workaholic, so full of IB, and resisted, sometimes (metaphorically) violently, my attempts to make us a family unit.

eventually, after a decade, about a year after we moved to this country, i just gave up. i realised/decided i was going to have to make my own way in this lonely place, and started doing things that interested me. i bought a horse, learned to kayak, took scuba diving lessons, etc. i went my way and he his, and sometimes we met in the middle. we became more and more distanced once i stopped pushing for togetherness, and then, whoopsie-daisy, the a happened, and the whole house of cards came tumbling down (surprise! there was nothing holding it up!). that was a bitter pill to swallow; after all the years i'd tried to create a marriage, and HE was the one that went and did that.

it hurt to read that chapter, because i could see us so clearly, and how much we disliked each other, and how i was hanging in there because i was Married, but how i was rolling the idea of divorce, once our child was grown, around in the back of my mind like it was an option.

it's horrible that something so awful and life changing has to happen before people pull their heads out and get with the programme. i am so glad i found MB, and so very happy that we are starting to experience romantic love again. (let this be a post i can return to on days i feel crappy!)
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/25/12 07:34 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
so, i finally got the book lovebusters in the mail. it was a bit daunting when i opened it - it's twice as big as the others! but boy, did i see us in that opening chapter. you see, before H's a, we had developed two separate lives. for years i tried to integrate our lives together, but he was such a workaholic, so full of IB, and resisted, sometimes (metaphorically) violently, my attempts to make us a family unit.

eventually, after a decade, about a year after we moved to this country, i just gave up. i realised/decided i was going to have to make my own way in this lonely place, and started doing things that interested me. i bought a horse, learned to kayak, took scuba diving lessons, etc. i went my way and he his, and sometimes we met in the middle. we became more and more distanced once i stopped pushing for togetherness, and then, whoopsie-daisy, the a happened, and the whole house of cards came tumbling down (surprise! there was nothing holding it up!). that was a bitter pill to swallow; after all the years i'd tried to create a marriage, and HE was the one that went and did that.

it hurt to read that chapter, because i could see us so clearly, and how much we disliked each other, and how i was hanging in there because i was Married, but how i was rolling the idea of divorce, once our child was grown, around in the back of my mind like it was an option.

it's horrible that something so awful and life changing has to happen before people pull their heads out and get with the programme. i am so glad i found MB, and so very happy that we are starting to experience romantic love again. (let this be a post i can return to on days i feel crappy!)


Good for you, Letty! Awesome attitude! I'm glad you can feel some love again, and I hope it just keeps getting better for you.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/29/12 01:23 PM
Just dropping in to say hi. I have my parents, daughter, and her beau in town and S18's graduation tonight. So, busy week for me! But, I'm glad to hear you got Lovebusters and are going through it.

I think a lot about "had we just have known" how we could have avoided so much pain.

With my parents here, there are so many times when I want to tell my mother off for the awful way she treats my father..and about how she's LBing him all over the place! I tried to in a subtle way yesterday, but she's too obstinate and selfish to care. It's painful to watch. Yet, my dad has never cheated on her.

My H and I had gone our separate ways too, in a lot of ways. It wasn't so much that we treated each other badly - we just had different mindsets and priorities. So, I understand what you're saying, Letty, about trying to get closer during those years and finally just setting your own course. I think that's what happens in a lot of marriages. We want to avoid "fighting" and then we end up in two different worlds.

Here's to MB! May our kids learn from our mistakes and put the work in their marriages one day so they can avoid the pitfalls.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/29/12 07:44 PM
progress is ongoing, yay! had third appt with MC yesterday and made progress on communication with H. some practice w/discussion, etc. i remembered to take the anti-AX so i could be calm and not strung out. it was a good session. it was nice to feel good walking out of there.

am reading lovebusters, and started at the AO chapter, since i felt that was my biggest problem. however, the case studies there were far beyond my own experience. when i get frustrated, and then angry, my response is to raise my voice (because clearly he's not listening, right?!), and sometimes, if i get very angry, use hurtful words, then leave the room. i feel this is an angry outburst. however, is it more classifiable as SD and DJ? i am unclear on this.

UA time is way up. we've got a 3 day weekend this weekend, and i am looking forward to the extra time. plus, H has shown interest in going to brisbane for an event together. if we can swing it financially (it costs more to fly to auckland than it does to oz! but it costs about the same in gas & parking to drive up there to catch the international flight, only instead of an hour on the plane, it's nearly 5.5 hours in the car), it would be fun for us. we are also planning a weekend away during the next school holidays (in 5 weeks, not that i'm counting), as well as attending an event here in november, which would be another weekend away.

going away is not something we have done a lot of, as two workaholics. so this is exciting for me.

sunday we had 23 degree day (warm), then yesterday was forecast at 13. it was actually 9. bitter cold. today is also forecast as 14, but i am dressed for 8! no heating in my classroom, bah!
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/29/12 09:23 PM
Awesome, Letty! You are doing so well! No heating in your classroom? Okay, I'll quit complaining about mine.

Are you in NZ? My kids were looking up teaching jobs there. They want to move far, far away. Can't say I blame them. How is teaching there? I had no idea it got that cold, though.

So glad you and hubby are working on things. You sound really good, like you are taking responsibility for your own "stuff" and working to change what is within your power to change. Way to go! Hope you have a great weekend away!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/30/12 04:58 AM
hey rainy! nz has its pros and cons. we are close to the south pole, and have our own alps, so it does get cold! we live in a place that's known for its "mild" winters. that still means 0 degree temps overnight and not much warmer during the day, strong winds, and pelting down rain. when there's snow on the mountains around us (like now) brrrrr!

nz houses are infamous for their lack of insulation and central heat. new houses will be insulated and have a "heat pump" (think air conditioner that does heat as well), but electricity here is VERY expensive. so is natural gas. so is, well, everything. a new house in a centre larger than a few thousand people will run you an easy 400-500K. if you want to live in auckland, you can add about 3 more 100Ks+.

teaching here is ok, but the system is completely different. school starts (for students) at 8.30 for high school and 9am for elementary. schools get out anywhere from 3 - 3.15 (they stagger them so mums can pick up kids at different schools). high school is 5 1-hour periods a day. english, science, and math is compulsory for all for 4 years, the 5th year can be more about what the student wants to do. usually, only students who want to go to university attend year 13, but with few jobs and fewer apprenticeships, more and more are staying longer, unfortunately, just to play sport or do one kind of class while still having to take other subjects. oh - everyone who wants to can be on a sport/cultural team. if 150 kids want to play rugby, we have as many teams as necessary to accommodate them all. same for anything else.

i teach all levels of high school, including scholarship, and the english curriculum does NOT require any spelling, grammar or proper writing skills unless you are looking for "excellence" as a mark. you receive the same number of credits for an "achieved" or a "merit," so most kids just don't bother. the national assessment is separate from schools and curriculum, so you have no sway over it and very little communication about it. students study (ha!) during the year for end-of-year exams. daily work counts for nothing. there are no checks and balances (like needing to be academically eligible to play sport). they are also constantly changing it and providing little to no help. for example, last year they "realigned" (moved it up one curriculum level) the level one (year 11) standards (assessments), provided partial "sample" exemplars, then didn't provide real ones until the year was over and they were completely different! this year we are nearly halfway through the year, and oral presentations for level 2 (year 12 - realigned this year) have been completed, and there are no exemplars, partial or otherwise, at all! frankly, and i'm nowhere near alone in this, the entire system is a joke. we just do the best we can with the incredible amount of paperwork. i often have to work extra just to keep up with the paperwork. most times i don't feel i am a teacher, but a secretary! in spite of it all, i still enjoy my job. i've always been a teacher, and always wanted to be one. but when i lived in the states i taught at a university, which is significantly different from high school! oh, we are also required to do a significant amount of extra-curricular work for no extra pay. i have duty 2x/week, meetings anywhere from 2x/month to 4x/week, and night-time parent-teacher meetings 3x/year. i teach scholarship at 7am mondays (on top of my "regular" schedule - it's voluntary and part of my extra-curricular), public speaking 2 hours a week, and am the only teacher in charge of the school ball, which is a 3 month process. overnight trips and overseas trips are not unheard of. basically, i have 1 hour a week during the school day for myself: friday, when i go OUT to lunch! on that day, i get to pee as well! lmao.

are your kids are interested in teaching elementary? kids here start school on their 5th birthday, and are in mixed classes almost all the way through until they reach high school. i loved the primary school here for our daughter. i homeschooled when we lived in the states, but the elementary school here made me change my mind and send her. they were terrific. primary (elementary) schools here are far advanced in using technology in the classroom, but high schools lag VERY far behind. i have a lot of friends who teach primary. they are all tech-heads like me.

sorry, that was probably WAY more info than you wanted! but feel free to ask any particular questions they may have. i can direct you to the right places. the first thing they would have to do is apply to NZQA to get their american qualifications accepted here (costs about $450 11 years ago when i did it). they will also have to have a job to come over. immigration is quite strict. however, schools often hire out of the country. a former colleague of mine was hired by our headmaster as she waited to catch the tube in london! he was so impressed by her when they struck up a conversation, he offered her a job! she has gone back to england now though. my school has several south africans, 2 americans (including me), 1 indian, and lots of brits. no aussies (wink cara and happy!)
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/30/12 12:35 PM
Looks like there is room for improvement, it missing an important element ... an Aussie wink

I must admit I am impressed with the primary system. Its a great idea having a new entrant's class. Children start when they turn 5 regardless of the time of year. They begin in a new entrance class and the following year proceed to year 1. Great for July babies, rather than waiting till the following year to begin school like they do in Oz.

Yes the technology is great in the primary schools, I think most schools have interactive white boards in all classrooms.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/30/12 02:47 PM
Quote:
nz houses are infamous for their lack of insulation and central heat. new houses will be insulated and have a "heat pump" (think air conditioner that does heat as well), but electricity here is VERY expensive. so is natural gas. so is, well, everything. a new house in a centre larger than a few thousand people will run you an easy 400-500K. if you want to live in auckland, you can add about 3 more 100Ks+.


Whoa! And I thought California real estate was expensive!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/30/12 07:56 PM
tell me about it! (i'm from CA too.) when we first moved here, you could buy a decent (older) house for under $200K. for example, the first house we lived in was 4 bedrooms (1 bath) on a 1/4 acre with two vegetablel gardens, apple, cherry, plum and apricot trees, plus blackberries and boysenberries around the garden. it cost $170. we put in a pool. we sold it when the market went up for $320, and bought our lovely home in the most desirable spot for just over $400K. then the market went through the roof! you could sell anything for any price; it was crazy. now, in our town, an average (older, unremodelled) house will run you about $300-350K. however, our rates (property taxes) are much lower (on our house, about $1800/year - we pay quarterly). that's about the only thing. you can get a "flat" (like a duplex, but just the half) for around $250K, and a small house in a bad neighbourhood for $180-230K. yes, we have bad neighbourhoods too. you can get a "leasehold" for which you pay an annual lease amount for the land, for around $150-170K, but the lease is on top of the rates and can be quite expensive. the resale value is not good. but sometimes you can get one cheap and freehold it (buy out the lease) cheaper as well. but not too often, i'm afraid.

update: had a HORRIBLE dream this morning. came into MB and posted: "now in plan D." dreamed H confessed to having sex with some slag at a bachelor party. he let slip something, and i said, "you have to tell me the truth" and he did. i went upstairs, helped him pack his bag, and told him to get out. i was cool on the outside, but screaming and weeping on the inside. dreadful feeling! terrible to wake up to. went and had a cuddle.

ok, off to work! busy day ahead.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/31/12 12:45 PM
Dreams can be horrid. I've been dreaming lately about Isildur. One dream was not the kind you want when your dark and missing your husband. The other 2 were all related to him wanting to reconcile and visiting home. It would be nice if they were premonitions rather than wishful thinking.

I also had a dream about PEGI ... yuck how did she slip her way into my peaceful slumber! We had that discussion she requested via text in RL, only in the dream it was about me packing a loaf of bread for DS6 visit ... odd I know, she is odd though in RL
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/31/12 07:49 PM
our unconscious minds sure do give us trouble, don't they?

i've heard that we can manipulate our dreams. the next time PEGI enters yours, you can beat the crap outta her! of have her fall down a mine shaft. or something along those lines. that should help smile
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/01/12 10:27 PM
i just need to vent.

background: i take a daily low-dose antibiotic to help cope with chronic sinus infections. i've been taking it for years, and countering with daily live yogurt to keep everything in balance (you ladies know what i mean). last year i was still sick a LOT, and had several doses of major antibiotics, and following used either the cream or the pills to handle "it."

for the last couple of months, i haven't been so great with the yogurt (i'm not a diary lover, and my daily schedule changed, knocking out the morning yogurt/protein smoothie). so...you know the drill: itchy!

yesterday i noticed a ...erm, (normal) discharge. i totally panicked. rang nurse, got appt, and said i wanted a sexual health check in addition to the thrush (yeast). i then got a very well-meaning yet totally useless talk about how if i don't 'trust' my H, then i must not be very happy and should consider my options (you know, the "you can't have a marriage without total unconditional trust; you should leave him because you deserve to be 'happy'" speech).

it's not that i think he may have had sex with the girl from march's mess; i believe in covering all bases. and if i was going to have to undress and have something stuck there, then we may as well go whole hog. i wanted the SHC to *confirm* nothing, not to prove something.

anyhow, the entire visit was totally humiliating and depressing (and my B12 is HIGH! how is that possible when i'm so tired?) and made me feel bad. this morning, now that's it's done, i'm sure it's just a chronic case of thrush due to the antibiotics. but i felt i needed to do the SHC anyhow for peace of mind (and not just randomly treat the chronic thrush w/OTC treatments).

thanks for letting me vent. no one else would get it!

and on the upside, a friend of Hs rang last night to enquire about doing something car-related on sunday, and his response was "nope. sunday is letty's day." that made me smile. he got a batch of double-chip brownies and toll house cookies in a silent response (and a fresh fish pie for dinner - one of his faves).
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/02/12 05:05 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
i just need to vent.

background: i take a daily low-dose antibiotic to help cope with chronic sinus infections. i've been taking it for years, and countering with daily live yogurt to keep everything in balance (you ladies know what i mean). last year i was still sick a LOT, and had several doses of major antibiotics, and following used either the cream or the pills to handle "it."

for the last couple of months, i haven't been so great with the yogurt (i'm not a diary lover, and my daily schedule changed, knocking out the morning yogurt/protein smoothie). so...you know the drill: itchy!

yesterday i noticed a ...erm, (normal) discharge. i totally panicked. rang nurse, got appt, and said i wanted a sexual health check in addition to the thrush (yeast). i then got a very well-meaning yet totally useless talk about how if i don't 'trust' my H, then i must not be very happy and should consider my options (you know, the "you can't have a marriage without total unconditional trust; you should leave him because you deserve to be 'happy'" speech).

it's not that i think he may have had sex with the girl from march's mess; i believe in covering all bases. and if i was going to have to undress and have something stuck there, then we may as well go whole hog. i wanted the SHC to *confirm* nothing, not to prove something.

anyhow, the entire visit was totally humiliating and depressing (and my B12 is HIGH! how is that possible when i'm so tired?) and made me feel bad. this morning, now that's it's done, i'm sure it's just a chronic case of thrush due to the antibiotics. but i felt i needed to do the SHC anyhow for peace of mind (and not just randomly treat the chronic thrush w/OTC treatments).

thanks for letting me vent. no one else would get it!

and on the upside, a friend of Hs rang last night to enquire about doing something car-related on sunday, and his response was "nope. sunday is letty's day." that made me smile. he got a batch of double-chip brownies and toll house cookies in a silent response (and a fresh fish pie for dinner - one of his faves).


I think going to the doc for your peace of mind is what you needed. So good job on doing it.

Too bad you had to hear the "unconditional trust" crap, I mean speech.

Those dang antibiotics can do a number on the system.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/02/12 05:17 AM
yeah, between the antibiotics and the crap, well...ya know.

it's not going great this weekend. H had a bad day at work yesterday and today, and has been moody. we spent several hours together this afternoon, where he cut himself medium-badly with a pair of shears (while gardening). however, he has calmed, but isn't really "with" me, if you know what i mean. this makes me feel sad and lonely, but i'm not showing it to him - staying strong and "worth it." hopefully we will have a better evening and tomorrow (and monday is a holiday, yay!). he is also still quite sick nearly a week later. i've had it 3 weeks myself, so i know how it is to be tired, sick, and crabby. i will do some need meeting until he feels better. going to go ply him with OJ now.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/02/12 05:19 AM
I like that idea, it will be worth getting a good nights sleep wink
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/02/12 05:23 AM
It's okay, Letty:) Very sweet that you baked for him, and that he said that - saved that day for you.

I hate those doctor visits. My doctor's medical assistant kept calling and leaving messages - I thought about AD refill or something, so finally called back. No, they were just reminding me it's time for my 6-month HIV check. Lovely. I hate the, "Why are you such a stupid idiot?" look they give you. I want to say, "Have you ever been in this situation? No? Then shut up." Good job taking care of yourself, Letty.

Do you ever take acidophilus? (Herbal kinda pills that help with positive yeast growth?) I'm sure someone's suggested that already, but I didn't see it on here, so just thought I'd mention it. I know there's an oral medication too - diflucan? Something like that.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/02/12 05:25 AM
Letty, I think you made the right decision to give you peace of mind. I'm sure it will prove to be related to the reduction of the yoghurt and antibiotics.

I can't believe the "well meaning nurse" even had this conversation with you.

What a boost, how wonderful to know you are a priority and hubby wants to spend time with you. smile
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/02/12 05:28 AM
Letty I'm sorry the start to your long weekend hasn't been so good and added to the mix you were helping me this morning. I really appreciate your support I wish I had known you were having a rough morning. I'd better start thinking about those bottles of nail polish!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/02/12 06:45 AM
oh no, happy, he was at work then! no problem at all :O) when you come up north we'll have to have a girly slumber party! lol.

yes, rainy, i have taken it before. just got caught up being busy; you know how it is!

have just had nice dinner. now going to curl up in warm bed. i love that about winter (and it's about the only thing. as a california girl, i struggle with winter). so cold we all [cats too] snuggle in bed and read/watch tv/play board games. my mother makes me tell everyone about making up a nz winter bed, so for you americans, (and uk folks blessed with central heat) here it is:

1. strip bed
2. put woolen underlay (like a sheepskin rug with straps to hold it on) on bed
3. put electric blanket on bed (dual controls are best)
4. put flannel fitted sheet on bed.
5. put cotton bigger sized sheet on bed (i prefer the larger sizes for the regular sheets and blankets so we don't have to play "pull the covers on me" in the middle of the night)
6. put flannel top sheet on
7. put on cotton blanket
8. put on wool blanket
9. put on another wool blanket (etc, etc until comfort level reached)
10. put woolen duvet on bed
11. all pile into bed. works best when cats sleep under covers; eliminates need for hot water bottle! it's like having a purring hot water bottle at your feet. no, i have no idea how they breathe down there all night!
13. never underestimate the value of multiple flannel-covered pillows (females only, i believe)

oh, 12. don't forget to turn on dehumidifier so that you don't find water running down the windows and rotting the sills in the morning!
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/02/12 07:12 AM
That makes me feel a little better. Girly slumber party sounds like a plan, if your down south we can have another!

Wow your winter bed sounds amazing. When we lived further south, I used polar fleece blankets (can't remember what their called) as sheets. They were warmer and softer than cold cotton sheets. We had 2 duvets on the bed.

Don't you love condensation on the windows, they call them "crying windows" in the Sth Is. We had a HRV system which was brilliant no more condensation. Thats my biggest bug bear during winter, drying window sills and windows if the weather doesn't allow for opening.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/02/12 07:41 PM
don't forget moldy curtains!

polar fleece blankets as sheets...i hadn't thought of that! H might like it. when we first came here, he was all "toughen up." he's one of those blokey blokes who wears shorts all winter.

but...now that he's over 50, that tune has changed a LOT! sometimes i will even catch him not only in jeans, but with a hat on! he will not wear the merino undershirts i bought him (what' up with that??). the reason i still use cotten (in addition to the flannel) is, being in my mid-40s now, i get...hot. hot a lot. so i can flip all the excess onto him and just have the lighter stuff on me!

we have been considering HRV. our house is lovely, but not newer, so not open plan (but three bloody storeys - that's a BAD idea if you're hitting middle age!), so heating is always an issue. we have two gas fireplaces (rubbish) but tend to use electric or portable gas in winter. our electric bill is astronomical - around $250/mo over winter.

solid frost out this morning. i can see it all over the park from my view. i'm sitting on the patio with three layers plus a wool blanket! pity i can't type well in gloves!
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/02/12 10:18 PM
Grateful for a beautiful sunny day for once! Strange to hear about winter. It's been unusually cold here lately, til the last little bit. Summer makes me sad, though. Used to be a happy time. Can't afford to put the yard in that pinoke never finished, so can't plant flowers. Oh, well. At least there's sun through the windows.

I cannot believe the making of the bed story. I think I would die, Letty. Is it really humid there? I guess it must be, or you wouldn't have moisture on the windows. Why no central heat? Perhaps you could start a business to introduce it and get rich? smile No natural gas resources? Strange.

I'm glad your H is working on things, and home with you. Nice to read that on someone's post.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/03/12 01:18 AM
I forgot about the mouldy curtains. You have to open the curtains even if its cold so they don't get damp and mouldy.

I recommend the HRV, it was the best thing we did our last home - 100yr old villa, it made a huge difference, everything was drier and a couple of degrees warmer (even tho not a heating sytem) as they transfer some of the heat from the roof space.

We used to have heavy frosts in the Sth Is and council would grit the roads (lots of hills), we don't get them here. We had a slight snowfall last winter, first in 50yrs. DD6 misses the snow, he used to love playing in it in the backyard.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/04/12 07:23 PM
well, it's 7.20 am here, and i'm already off to a really chitty day. and i don't even have time to write about it, grr! despite chanting to myself, "marathon, not sprint," i completely forgot last night! i don't know who i'm angry with - probably me! sigh guess i will go to work and have a good think. will let you all where my head is when i get home. i could really use the advice.

yes, we had a lovely 3-day weekend. then i blew it. :-(
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/05/12 05:32 AM
You okay, Letty? Haven't heard from you. Wondered how you "blew it." I'm sure you probably didn't really, even though it may have felt that way. Just checking on you.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/05/12 07:41 AM
oh, it sure did this morning. i'm actually glad i didn't have time to hash it all over. despite such a lovely 3 day weekend, last night i felt incredibly unfilled EN-wise. i was really out of sorts about it.

H came home early today (before me, even), and we were able to have a really good talk about the differences between his needs and mine, and *how* to fill them, *every* day. i also realised during the course of the afternoon that he never had been exposed to the fallout (on me) of his mistakes. because we had such a chitty IC who didn't allow any "past talk," my pain had always been concealed. so i shared it with him today, with writings from the past about my terror and other feelings. not in a blamey way. how i felt unmoored, adrift, and out of control of my life. (and how i cried alone in the shower for 6 months, among other things.) knowing the true pain caused will help him understand me more, i think.

i feel we are in a better place tonight than last night. or at least i feel much better now. oh - he brought me flowers, too, which was nice. just because. and tuesday night is a regular "pizza and game of thrones night" for us, which was a great restorer (bring together) way to spend the evening. i love not having to come home and cook on a tuesday!

some of the things we discussed were the differences in RC (his need) and affection (mine), conversation (his) vs openness and honesty (mine). and sf - oddly, mine! that's the trouble with a man over 50 - they soooo don't need it as much any more, and a woman in her mid-40s, well...you'll see!

i think an eye-opening comparison for him was about saying "i love you." when he was getting ready to have his a, he felt as if i didn't love him any more. i told him i loved him every day, but our lives were distinctly separate, and surprise, surprise, he didn't FEEL loved. so i compared that to him telling me now. even if he tells me every day, not filling my ENs the way i need them filled is the same as when he felt unloved. i think it finally sunk in then - that "ooooooh" moment. i never again expect to hear: "but i *tell* you i love you!"

as long as you're here, rainy, i see i forgot to put in the step on giving your link a name so it's clickable.

it should look like this:

bracket url=http://www.your link/]What you want to call it[/url]

does that make sense? don't use any spaces, and make sure the first word, bracket, is an actual "[" every time i tried to leave it there, it made a clickable link!

thanks for checking in :O)
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/05/12 07:42 AM
Hi Letty, Just checking in to see how you are after this mornings post. Thinking of you, wanted to let you know I'm here and will keep checking in. Take care my friend. hug
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/06/12 04:50 PM
Letty,

Just remember that even in the best recovery stories there are down moments as well as up. We all experience the dips. In fact, I think it's natural that it starts occurring as recovery really starts to progress.

When you first reconcile, the relief of knowing your spouse is committed keeps everything sort of surreal. For a lot of couples, hysterical bonding occurs which brings you back together and really bolsters the relationship and PEA chemicals. As things slide into a more normal pattern, you start to feel safe: safe enough that your subconscious starts to bring back the terrible moments of pain you have to deal with.

I have been exactly where you are. I have felt at times that my H will never really know the pain he put me through. When he was wayward, he didn't care and was blinded by it. When he left...it was hidden from him. When he returned, I didn't talk about it. You get to a point where you want them to understand it - and to feel remorse for it. That's natural.

Just keep in mind, these new habits aren't always natural and that's why it's so great to have the program to guide you into new habits. As long as you are telling your H what you need and he is attempting to meet those needs, you will continue to progress. It may be slow at times, but slow and steady wins the race!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/06/12 07:39 PM
very wise words, sunny, thanks! food for thought for today, and since it's a post, i can return to it again and again. thank you.
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/07/12 04:05 AM
Thanks, Letty. I wondered what I did wrong. I'll see if i can fix it:)

It helps to hear about your recovery. It makes me sad, because we were in recovery for about 3 months - I wish we'd had MB. I remember finally feeling "safe" enough to start letting some of the anger and pain come out that I'd repressed for so long. But I didn't know how to do it in the right way. But you are doing great, and it's good to hear a story of success and hope.

I know you aren't "there" yet, you have a ways to go, but it's still uplifting to hear from you, even though you are human and have ups and downs. Sounds like you handled things so well yesterday! Sorry I didn't check in last night.

Keep up the great work. It makes me happy to hear of your hubby's efforts to love you. You so deserve that! And it's getting better, bit by bit, as I've read through your thread. weightlifter
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/07/12 04:36 AM
it's not just WSs who want things to be "done." us BSs also wish we could just wave our magic wands and be finished! but it IS a process, just like everything else. falling in love takes time, rebuilding takes time, recovery takes time.

i, too, have a 2 year timeframe. 2 years is what i'm willing to give myself and our M for recovery. i'm hopeful that MB will recover our marriage and that i can also have a "fully recovered!" notation in my sig line! that's the "finished" i referred to, though of course after that MB will be a forever part of our M. there are up days, and down days. today i came home and said "i need extended UA time this afternoon." as soon as H is out of the shower, i'll be off! UA is wonderful. it really does make a huge difference. i hope it'll make us a recovery success story, like sunnyd :O)
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/07/12 04:45 AM
Yeah, I guess we all want to be "done" with this horrific part of our lives, no matter where we are or what that entails. It's just a crappy place to be.

I hope that for you too:)
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/07/12 09:04 AM
Unfortunately it is all part of the process, at times I wish for a fast forward button. We all have to remember the mantra marathon not sprint. Glad to hear your feeling better.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/07/12 04:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
it's not just WSs who want things to be "done." us BSs also wish we could just wave our magic wands and be finished! but it IS a process, just like everything else. falling in love takes time, rebuilding takes time, recovery takes time.

i, too, have a 2 year timeframe. 2 years is what i'm willing to give myself and our M for recovery. i'm hopeful that MB will recover our marriage and that i can also have a "fully recovered!" notation in my sig line! that's the "finished" i referred to, though of course after that MB will be a forever part of our M. there are up days, and down days. today i came home and said "i need extended UA time this afternoon." as soon as H is out of the shower, i'll be off! UA is wonderful. it really does make a huge difference. i hope it'll make us a recovery success story, like sunnyd :O)


H and I haven't hit the 2 year mark yet, but I do feel we are well on our way! smile I know it isn't some magical # but I've heard time and time again that it takes at least that to feel comfortable in your new marriage. When people don't follow the program properly, it takes even longer!

It's important to have people who remind you to not let up or let things slide...which is what is great about this place! That way, when the 2 year mark comes around, you're more likely to be happy when that time comes around. I am confident, Letty, that you will get there! smile

I know we will always have the scars from what happened, but there will come a time when the wound is healed.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/12/12 05:45 AM
so, just journaling today, i think.

it is absolutely freezing today. 50 degrees inside the house. below freezing outside. wearing three layers of merino, including thermals (longjohns) and my uggs! brrrrr. closed all the drapes and have the fire going for when H gets home.

met with MC yesterday. i thought our appt was on tuesday, and so hadn't brought any anti-ax w/me to work. was very anxious, but the session went so well. even though she's not MB, she is just like MB, if that makes sense. was really good session (on conversation), but the best part, besides both of us being happy when we left, was that when i met H there, he took my hand as we walked across the street and into the building. a few years ago, he never would have taken my hand if i didn't take his first.

heard "50 ways to leave your lover" by paul simon over the weekend. although i can toe-tap to the chorus, i have never liked that song. i was 9 yo when it came out, and even then i thought, "what, if you're unhappy you don't talk to your lover about it, you just bail out? really? how adult...NOT." plus, i was fearful of my parents divorcing (which they did 2 years later), and that song is a trigger of that time. even all these years later! i can taste and smell those days. funny, isn't it?

ok, it's pizza and GoT night, so i'm off for some pepperoni with extra sauce!

sunny, i am sooo looking forward to that day! healing is what i came here for. i'm so glad it's actually happening!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/12/12 02:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
so, just journaling today, i think.

it is absolutely freezing today. 50 degrees inside the house. below freezing outside. wearing three layers of merino, including thermals (longjohns) and my uggs! brrrrr. closed all the drapes and have the fire going for when H gets home.

met with MC yesterday. i thought our appt was on tuesday, and so hadn't brought any anti-ax w/me to work. was very anxious, but the session went so well. even though she's not MB, she is just like MB, if that makes sense. was really good session (on conversation), but the best part, besides both of us being happy when we left, was that when i met H there, he took my hand as we walked across the street and into the building. a few years ago, he never would have taken my hand if i didn't take his first.

heard "50 ways to leave your lover" by paul simon over the weekend. although i can toe-tap to the chorus, i have never liked that song. i was 9 yo when it came out, and even then i thought, "what, if you're unhappy you don't talk to your lover about it, you just bail out? really? how adult...NOT." plus, i was fearful of my parents divorcing (which they did 2 years later), and that song is a trigger of that time. even all these years later! i can taste and smell those days. funny, isn't it?

ok, it's pizza and GoT night, so i'm off for some pepperoni with extra sauce!

sunny, i am sooo looking forward to that day! healing is what i came here for. i'm so glad it's actually happening!


After reading this post it made me just want to reach out and give you a big hug, Letty - and I'm not really a big hugger! You know, some people hug everyone all the time. I only hug people I really like. smile

First, I am so happy that you and your H have come so far in recovery. You WILL heal because you are determined to stay on course and your H is doing his job by following the concepts. All that posturing from months ago about how he wasn't going to do this and was going to that is GONE! Thank God.

Second, I wanted to hug you because of the song trigger; I know how that is. I've never liked that song either!

Third, you have been writing some amazing posts and helping lots of folks out lately. That shows just how far you've come!
smile

As for the weather...I have to say: I would trade places with you in a heartbeat right now! I'm one of those crazy people that HATES summer! I am supposed to be a southern girl, but I just cannot stand the heat and humidity, even though I grew up with it! Maybe it's because I was born in Colorado - so by birth - I love the cooler weather better. LOL I would rather warm up by the fire than sit here in this sweltering 94 degree heat any day. Although... 50 degrees INSIDE the house is pretty severe, I must say! Hmmm... maybe I should rethink this. lol

Anyway, I'm glad that you and H found a MB type counselor! It always helps to have someone holding you accountable that works with the program.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/12/12 07:53 PM
thanks sunny - i appreciate your hug!

i know - the man who said MB was "bullchit" is now having no problem following the concepts! such a radical change! he even talks in terms of LB$ and LBs and ENs! selling it to them CAN be done!

remember, NZ houses don't have central heating, ugh. i'm from southern california myself, having lived in both the high and low deserts, and 20 years in the san fernando valley (100+, but no humidity). winter is nice when you can *visit* it. not so great when you have to live there. 1 winter in MA was all i needed to go back to CA!

dressed better today (my classroom has very little heat as well) with merino tights, men's woolen socks, boots, and four layers up top as well. exam week, so i'd better get off my bum and go!

thanks for the comment re my posts. i want to pay it forward.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/19/12 05:43 AM
so...i think i might be at the point of moving my thread over to recovery. a few weeks ago i was still hedging my bets, but things are going so well, i finally feel it's appropriate (but i'm still afraid of jinxing myself! how silly is that?).

things here are really good. you CAN restore romantic love in a marriage. and having a spouse meet ENs and protect you in word, thought, and deed is how you get there. i wouldn't have thought 2 months ago that i would feel this way now.

H has even settled on an activity he'd like both of us to do: kayaking! i'm very excited about this. (did i mention for my 50th birthday i want to go diving with great whites? here i like to do physical things (horseback ride, walk, kayak, scuba dive), he like what i consider "sedentary" activities (drag race, boating, those kinds of things where you are sitting down). and...after nearly 11 very long years, he's finally fixing my car! i'll be able to drive it to powercruise in november. with him in his new camero, and me in my corvette, we should have a lovely weekend! i do enjoy driving, and miss speeding to work in my little car (back when i had a long commute, opposite traffic, thank goodness). the women in my family are known for having lead feet, and my own mother always had a nifty little two-seater.

our house is also transforming. we have really tackled the grounds, and this past weekend, when he said he was going to start on my car, i said we should forget cleaning the vines out of the back of the house and tidy up his garage instead, so we did :O) the dump is making a killing off us. plus, when he is working on it, i plan to piddle around in the garage, putting all his stuff in order. i'm kind of a neat freak. he is NOT. i like to be able to find stuff when i go in the garage, and it irritates the crap out of me when i walk in there and he's just put stuff any old place. it was a real mess!

we're also getting a guy to re-wallpaper our daughter's room, and then i'm going to paint over it during my school holiday break (in a week and a half, not that i'm counting!). NB: NZ house walls are made of a very thin wood-type thing. reminds me of particle board (and we wonder why we're freezing). our DD ruined the wallpaper in her room after putting up posters with clear packing tape (!!!) and then removing them. so we're putting up a plain, thick paper to cover the indentations from the rips, and then i'll paint the "sewing/snoring room" a pretty colour. we looked at paint and wallpaper last weekend.

so, i'm feeling pretty loved up, tender towards my H, and i believe he is feeling the same way, too, judging by his actions. now, if only *I* could stop eating my baking. back to the gym during the holidays before i turn into the stay-puft marshmallow man. i do so hate having to get up at 5.30 to exercise. bleech.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/19/12 06:01 AM
hurray my friend.

I think you're definitely moving on up. Move on over to recovery. Good job to you and FWH(how does that feel to see that F?) for putting in the work.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/19/12 07:49 AM
Really glad to hear all is going so well for you and FWH.

Move on over to recovery. I hope you keep dropping by here if you are able, you have a lot to offer us in SAA too!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/19/12 02:53 PM
You know - I was going to suggest you make the move to Recovery in my last post, but didn't. Now, I'm certain you should. smile

I'm REALLY glad things are going well for you, Letty!!!
Posted By: TinT Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/19/12 05:44 PM
It sounds like recovery is going so well for you. I am ready for the day I can move my thread there too!

So glad everything is working out!!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/19/12 07:47 PM
thanks gals! one thing, though. i was thinking this morning of BHs reply, with the F (WH). am i ready to put that F there? is it mean of me not to? i think the F comes from a long term commitment. i need more time, i think, before i can commit to a F. but i will move over to recovery. will they let me change my thread name?

i will definitely stay around here, though. have many threads i'm following! i am always so sad when i get up in the morning and see new threads posted (today: 3). hurting people are everywhere. great they found MB though - the best help you'll ever get!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/20/12 03:58 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
thanks gals! one thing, though. i was thinking this morning of BHs reply, with the F (WH). am i ready to put that F there? is it mean of me not to? i think the F comes from a long term commitment. i need more time, i think, before i can commit to a F. but i will move over to recovery. will they let me change my thread name?

i will definitely stay around here, though. have many threads i'm following! i am always so sad when i get up in the morning and see new threads posted (today: 3). hurting people are everywhere. great they found MB though - the best help you'll ever get!


Yes you can ask the MODS to change your title. Sometimes, many have them changed multiple times. I think Scotty is on her third(?). Sometimes it keeps showing up the original.

Also when you want to give yourself the F for your FBW, is totally up to you. Give yourself as much time as you need.

Former means when you feel like you are truly a Former Betrayed Wife. Glad you're going to stay around, because your wisdom is needed here in the trauma ward.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/21/12 05:13 AM
came home today and "caught" my H working on my car! the one i haven't driven in 11 years!

moving over to recovery now. dance2
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/21/12 07:35 AM
so, i just read where a site surveyed a "bunch" of "therapists" and, "A whopping 57% of the therapists polled said that a partner who has strayed may not be best served by confessing to the infidelity if they wish to save the marriage."

yet more info that IMC is a massive waste of time and money! hmpfh. of course the person who has cheated is better served by not coming clean. but the BS and M sure aren't! what a load of hooey!
Posted By: unwritten Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/21/12 12:48 PM
Welcome to the recovery forum Letty!

That title thing is funny. Since my WH's actions were awhile ago, and his mental state has changed, I don't like to call him WH. But I also don't have the tenderness for him yet to call him DH. And I don't have the confidence to call him FWH. So I just call him H. Lol.

My H kept his infidelity a secret for over a decade. He is just now looking back and realizing how much damage it did to his sense of self and character, not to mention how damaging it was to the intimacy and engagement he could have with me (not much). He vowed to 'take it to the grave,' and now shudders to think of what that really meant. Taking his last breath knowing he has been a liar and cheat all his life, with no opportunity to confess his sins. So I would have a few things to say to those therapists!

We had an MC up until about a month ago, since school got out and we have to rearrange things differently with kids to go, we haven't yet scheduled a new set of appts and now we are talking about going back to SH instead. I liked our MC but our last conversation was about me wanting a poly that H had never followed through with taking, and he kindof laughed at me, not out loud but just his mannerisms were very I felt condescending like it was WAY overboard to ask such a silly thing. Plus, I think he got sick of me spewing MB principles all over the place in our sessions, I think he felt like he wasn't running the show. So ya, I think we'll ditch him. He did more work on IC with H and his selfishness than on MC issues, but that was actually really beneficial so IDK, I won't say it was money wasted.

Anyway, welcome smile
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/21/12 02:35 PM
Welcome, Letty! I hope to get a chance to read your thread today. I'm interested in knowing what kind of "just compensation" your WH has done and what his participation in YOUR healing has been.

~RQ
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/21/12 03:01 PM
YAY!!! Glad to see you made the move!
smile
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/22/12 04:28 AM
wow, i wrote a big, long post this morning, and apparently it's disappeared into the ether!

suffice it to say: thanks for the welcome! (i won't bore you with the massive anxiety dream i had last night. it was wacko.)

today is the antiversary of DD 6 years ago, and i feel great! i don't know if there will be a year where it passes unnoticed, but i'm happy with the way i feel this year. normally winter is rough for me anyway, being winter and all, but DD added a super-whammy to it. this is the first year i haven't been well-sunk into a depression at this point. yay for little steps!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/22/12 03:41 PM
I absolutely HATE when that happens with a post! It's frustrating because once you have brain dumped, you feel you can't really say it all again.

Sorry about the dream. I hate those.

But YES....every small step leads to a great victory!!!
smile
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/23/12 04:50 AM
yes, the dream was a baddie, and although i've smacked its hands, it's still playing a little in my brain. i had a couple of wobblies today, but managed them just fine by myself.

the great victory this week was IC. twice! the other day, i was talking about getting my hair done, and asked H what he thought. he said, "i *prefer* it when you wear it long." i laughed like a child! this is possibly the first time H has ever said he *prefers* or even likes something! i know, such a trivial thing, but wow! then last night i made a stir fry dinner. i've struggled with the recipe since DD moved out and took hers, but last night it was really good, and i said something like gee, i'm so glad this finally came out so tasty, and H said, "this is really good!" and then ate the entire wokful. from a man whose every meal has been "ok," this was remarkable.

he got lots of praise from me today for communicating his thoughts. also, am building up the admiration bank with his work around the house. he must really be glad i'm doing it, because when we came home today, he got out the secateurs and hacked down the tree/vine blocking the view at the bottom of the house. now if only i can get him to have sf more often. i'm generally jealous of unwritten's 5x/week "compromise!"

we go back to IC monday, and though i'm pretty darn anxious about it, it's great that we do it right after the weekend, where we have so much UA time. off soon for a dinner out, and then the hot pools. bad weather coming in, so good night for it. i hope you're having a great weekend too!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/26/12 08:11 AM
brrrr! i think mother nature is telling me to give up smoking. i'm sitting on the patio in four layers of wool and a wool blanket to boot, and i'm still freezing!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/26/12 08:12 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
brrrr! i think mother nature is telling me to give up smoking. i'm sitting on the patio in four layers of wool and a wool blanket to boot, and i'm still freezing!

Yes gurl! Give up that smoking! laugh
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/27/12 06:12 AM
yes, i really need to; not only a disgusting habit, very expensive here, at $21+change for a pack of 30. ouch! i had quit, then reverted at crisis time. sadly, a default of mine. winter may push me to it! big storm blowing in tonight.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/27/12 06:15 AM
oh, meant to mention, have had first successful poja! a calm, rational, mutually beneficial conversation. this is the first time we have ever talked out something fully, with full honesty, and reached an enthusiastic agreement. i cannot tell you how stoked i am. and it did help to start with baby steps, as i've seen someone mention before (with stuff at the grocery store, etc). you CAN translate it to bigger issues without pain.

the most enjoyable part was the conversation - quiet, respectful, no one shutting down with "whatever" or "just forget it." wow.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/28/12 06:03 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
oh, meant to mention, have had first successful poja! a calm, rational, mutually beneficial conversation. this is the first time we have ever talked out something fully, with full honesty, and reached an enthusiastic agreement. i cannot tell you how stoked i am. and it did help to start with baby steps, as i've seen someone mention before (with stuff at the grocery store, etc). you CAN translate it to bigger issues without pain.

the most enjoyable part was the conversation - quiet, respectful, no one shutting down with "whatever" or "just forget it." wow.


YAY! POJA really is a crucial part of the MB program. And you're right: cutting your teeth on the small stuff will help when big issues arise. It's definitely a learned skill as H and I have found. We're getting better all the time! AND...I've learned to seek advice if I need to clarify my own thoughts or motives before heading into negotiations. It really makes you focus on putting your marriage and spouse first, making for a great relationship.

Before MB it was easier to think about everyone else besides H first. You take it for granted that your spouse is going to understand, etc... It's SO counterproductive! POJA helps put the most important person in your life before anyone else. That's how it should be.

I can remember the first big argument H and I had after recovery. It was weird! I had to remind him that no longer was I doing the "whatever/just forget about it" thing. And...no longer was I making excuses for my feelings to try and manipulate him to see things my way, or vice versa. It's like we had to remind ourselves that we didn't have to play those games anymore - and boy was it nice! Of course, the argument started because we HADN'T POJA'd something, lol.

It's like, when you first are in the recovery process you are learning all these philosophies and big picture ideals. When you have your first opportunities to utilize them, you're amazed at how much it really does work - and how much better it is than doing what you did before.

As for the smoking issue...it's understandable that it was difficult to quit while in the midst of crisis. You can only deal with so much at one time. Perhaps now will be an easier time for you to tackle that!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 07/02/12 03:09 AM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX


Before MB it was easier to think about everyone else besides H first. You take it for granted that your spouse is going to understand, etc... It's SO counterproductive! POJA helps put the most important person in your life before anyone else. That's how it should be.



so true! i know that was one of my pre-new-M problems. just assuming anything would be just fine. what a dope!

i had a funny thing happen today. (background) H found a mouse in our kitchen drawers the other day. i cleaned up all the mess (it had made a nest in the back of the kitchen towel drawer - the lowest one). our littlest cat hopped on it immediately.

then today i opened the bread drawer, and there was a(nother) mouse on top of the loaf! i shouted. it jumped a foot! i jumped a foot! then we both scampered around like chickens with our heads cut off and ran in different directions! (him for a hidey hole, me for the camera!)

i cannot believe that we have 3 cats, one of whom delivered a disemboweled rat the size of our 5 month old kitten to me this morning, and have mice in the kitchen!

NB: i'm not afraid of mice, was just surprised!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Letting Go of the Past - 07/02/12 02:43 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX


Before MB it was easier to think about everyone else besides H first. You take it for granted that your spouse is going to understand, etc... It's SO counterproductive! POJA helps put the most important person in your life before anyone else. That's how it should be.



so true! i know that was one of my pre-new-M problems. just assuming anything would be just fine. what a dope!

i had a funny thing happen today. (background) H found a mouse in our kitchen drawers the other day. i cleaned up all the mess (it had made a nest in the back of the kitchen towel drawer - the lowest one). our littlest cat hopped on it immediately.

then today i opened the bread drawer, and there was a(nother) mouse on top of the loaf! i shouted. it jumped a foot! i jumped a foot! then we both scampered around like chickens with our heads cut off and ran in different directions! (him for a hidey hole, me for the camera!)

i cannot believe that we have 3 cats, one of whom delivered a disemboweled rat the size of our 5 month old kitten to me this morning, and have mice in the kitchen!

NB: i'm not afraid of mice, was just surprised!


OMG...I would have freaked! lol

We had a squirrel in our wall a couple of months ago. It had gotten trapped in there somehow - from the attic. It was making all kinds of scurrying noises trying to get out. H finally cut a small hole in the wall as it was between the pantry and the laundry room. I felt much better knowing it was a squirrel and not a rat, but still! I was expecting some kind of scene like in Christmas Vacation! LOL

He finally got it out by putting our little dog carrier up against the hole with some food/water in it. When the squirrel went into the carrier, he shut the door and then took it outside. Then, he worried about the little guy - wondering if he was making it OK on the outside world. LOL (H has a heart of gold!) smile
Posted By: Letty being able to read threads at SAA - hard? - 07/04/12 03:03 AM
lol, my H is the same way with animals. he loves his fur babies.

having booted out 2 of the little b@st@rds, there are more! i found mouse poop in the cutlery drawer this morning! how i hate washing cutlery; thank goodness for dishwashers!

someone recently asked in a thread about reading over at SAA (was it RQ?) sometimes i find it very hard to read a new thread there, and i just have to leave it for the vets. it is just too hard to read the fresh heartbreak and pain and the middle of a nasty a. having said that, most of the time i can deal, but that's because i'm quite a distance out from our own a. and i finally feel like i'm healing every day, so that i can try to help others implement MB if they're ready to.

i think i have more trouble IRL. we have an adulterer next door, and one across the street. mad every time i see the homewrecker's car across the street i about steam out the ears. poor BWs WH had an a with his secretary while she was at home with two very small children dealing w/the renovation of their home. she booted his butt right out, but he moved back into the house (alone) about a year later. it's really sad that there is no legal recourse here to keep children away from the AP. blerk. and when i think of the poor lady who should be living next door in her retirement dream home built from scratch, which is now being enjoyed by her XWH and their interior decorator, i'd like to spew. thank goodness all the others are long-term marrieds! those are the ones i speak to. i avoid the others. the across the street adulterer had to sell his practice and now works at my health clinic. there's NO WAY i'd accept an appointment with him, and i'd have no problem saying why if it came to that. thank goodness i never actually have to even see him from a distance.

i went to have my brows and lashes done today (i look like a rabbit otherwise) and my girl asked if i watched the locally-made movie last night. she went on about the love story theme (three couples, one breaks up and the man moves on with one of the other wives). i stopped her mid-sentence and said that i don't watch films that romanticize adultery, locally made or not. that shut her up, lol.

adultery impacts so many people in so many ways. it makes me sick that our culture glorifies it and even makes it easy for the adulterers to continue their bad behaviour and even *encourages* it! my heart aches for those little kids across the street.

on another note, i have not been able to find identity of poor BW in the sitch i heard about. i feel at a loss of what to do. cautious questions with those in the know have gotten me shut down quick smart. i think someone must know that i'd reveal all. but then, that's my fault for being upfront about my feelings on this topic. banghead

ok, i'm off to finish my chicken soup. it's very cold and raining today, and we're off on a mini-break this weekend to a place even colder, so need to think about what to pack! although, i'm hopeful that we won't be leaving the room, IYKWIM wink
Originally Posted By: Letty


someone recently asked in a thread about reading over at SAA (was it RQ?) sometimes i find it very hard to read a new thread there, and i just have to leave it for the vets. it is just too hard to read the fresh heartbreak and pain and the middle of a nasty a. having said that, most of the time i can deal, but that's because i'm quite a distance out from our own a. and i finally feel like i'm healing every day, so that i can try to help others implement MB if they're ready to.



Yes, that was me, Letty. It's getting better to read the threads over there, but what troubles me is how the waywards all the same! It brings me back to the lies and fogbabble I had heard and that is hard to forget or forgive. I keep up with a couple of threads (rainsysweet and starfish) but that is pretty much it.

Your thread title says what I need to do, it's just so dang hard
It can be difficult to read situations that put your mind back into the past. I think that's why for the most part I have stuck with Recovery rather than SAA. I do read there some, but I have conditions for myself: I have to be in the right frame of mind, to go there. If I am feeling at all blue, whether about the A or just in general, I don't let myself go to SAA. If I'm feeling strong and confident, then I will.

With time it is becoming easier to go to SAA and help.

Letty, it's good that you let the girl know why you wouldn't watch that movie. People honestly don't think about those things until it hits close to him, sadly. They don't realize how devastating infidelity really is! And you know - I think it is a lot more widespread than I ever thought.

Marriage really is in trouble. Just the other day I thought about a bunch of couples that were married right around the same time H and I were. Less than half of us are still married.
Posted By: Letty Re: being able to read threads at SAA - hard? - 07/04/12 11:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Your thread title says what I need to do, it's just so dang hard


yes, RQ, it is, but w/MB, it's possible! i spent 5 years worrying, wondering, not being able to let go. i am so pleased to have found MB and really feel that we are finally getting some place. the speed bump a few months ago was rough - it's the lies that kill your M, ya know? but working the programme works. all that UA and EN meeting really does help paste it all back together, even better, like when you've broken a bone and it grows back stronger.

i do worry that reading/posting in SAA prevents me from being able to forget about the a. but i don't think i'd ever really forget. i can, however, finally forgive. and the a is only background noise now. the first year was basically just getting through each day, one day at a time. it does get better.

Originally Posted By: sunnyd
Marriage really is in trouble. Just the other day I thought about a bunch of couples that were married right around the same time H and I were. Less than half of us are still married.


well, statistically, that's about right, isn't it? from my group of friends, ones that i've known a long time, most of the women, college educated, good jobs, have never married or had children. that makes me sad. i've had one friend whose husband was a serial cheat; they are divorced after a FR and another COM. one friend that was married to a total loser but is now married to a great fella. and one friend whose husband died young and is also now married to a great guy. anotheer friend from HS is still married to her H (20 years now), but i no longer know how that's going (she was the one i referenced in the fb palaver). even my sister, 7 years younger, is in a defacto relationship (10 years). they have no plans to marry (both burned before).

my Hs friends are all either still married (kiwis tend to stay married, or did), or never married but are defacto (his closest friend from kindy has been with his partner for over 35 years; they have twins aged 12, no M plans). he has one friend that's divorced: his W is now a drug-addled adulteress. he says he'll never marry again. after spending the last 6 years in and out of court, i don't blame him, but am saddened that he is resisting future happiness and love from a good woman. funny about that one. i met his XWW, girlfriend at the time, and knew from that 10 minute meeting that she was BAD news and their relationship wouldn't last. can't tell you why. just intuition. pity he didn't figure it out before the kids came along.

i am freaking out today. took H to dr appt yesterday. he'd been complaining about pain on the right side of his chest for about 3 weeks. you know how men are: no doctors! anyhow, i got him in and the doc had a poke and a prod. Hs heart health is really great: low BP and resting heart rate of 64. however, while we were there H asked (sorry, TMI?) what would make pee foamy. dr then felt the rib area some more, then wrote out a form for an xray. he wants to rule out cancer...the chest pain could be from a secondary tumor from prostrate cancer. i'm trying not to fall apart! H is adopted, so we have zero medical history for him. he's always been healthy, apart from having died several decades ago when someone turned on the power on a building site (3 day coma). however, he may have also been exposed to asbestos back in the 70s as well. am freaking out! it would be terrible to lose him, and i'm already so sorry for not having cleaned up my side of the street faster, having not kept my promise to myself to always make him glad for marrying me.

ok, enough of that before i start hyperventilating. it's probably nothing, maybe some arthritis in the ribs, or a torn muscle. but for our dr to have voiced that concern tells me it's a serious prospect and i am scared. H joked it off, saying that if he died i'd be rich (life insurance, etc). i looked him in the eye and said, "do you think any of that means anything to me without you?" and he looked me back and said, softly, "no. i know it doesn't." gah, ok, i'm going to go do some cleaning before i start crying. i'll come back later!
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
It can be difficult to read situations that put your mind back into the past. I think that's why for the most part I have stuck with Recovery rather than SAA. I do read there some, but I have conditions for myself: I have to be in the right frame of mind, to go there. If I am feeling at all blue, whether about the A or just in general, I don't let myself go to SAA. If I'm feeling strong and confident, then I will.

With time it is becoming easier to go to SAA and help.



Exactly, I need to see how I feel before I venture there smile
Letty, understandable to freak out. Prayers for you two and keep us posted on your H's health.
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Letty, understandable to freak out. Prayers for you two and keep us posted on your H's health.

Ditto, my friend. hug
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Letty, understandable to freak out. Prayers for you two and keep us posted on your H's health.

Ditto, my friend. hug

X 3 Letty. I hope this is just a "scare". Let us know your H's results.

And for you having to stay strong... hug Come here and have a good sob and vent if needed.
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
It can be difficult to read situations that put your mind back into the past. I think that's why for the most part I have stuck with Recovery rather than SAA. I do read there some, but I have conditions for myself: I have to be in the right frame of mind, to go there. If I am feeling at all blue, whether about the A or just in general, I don't let myself go to SAA. If I'm feeling strong and confident, then I will.

With time it is becoming easier to go to SAA and help.

Should I dare chime in here, when clearly I belong in SAA?

Here goes anyway. I found it interesting to read you guys struggle to cross over to SAA. I HAD wondered about this, but wasn't sure. Its understandable. I struggle to read Recovery. I know other Plan B'ers do too. You don't seem to find many of us here. It is hard to read other's threads, or post advice, when we never got the chance. I occasionally come over because of a friend, and also because I think I can learn MB practices here.

But I largely avoid it.

Just wanted to let you know, that you in recovery are INVALUABLE to those in SAA. Especially those that are on the cusp of recovery. You have EXPERIENCE, whereas some of us sadly don't.

Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Marriage really is in trouble. Just the other day I thought about a bunch of couples that were married right around the same time H and I were. Less than half of us are still married.

Oh yeah. My three closest friends... ALL of our marriages have been effected by adultery. One divorced, one happily recovered, and one still working on it. And me on the road to divorce. So... percentages wise, less than 50/50.
I am more and more sticking to the recovery threads too. Number one because sometimes I will post something in SAA and think, what do I know about this or that? Such as exposure, PB, etc. I never had to deal with an ongoing A, can not IMAGINE how anyone goes through that, did not do exposure, never had to PB...Also what is disheartening to me is the activity level. Every day there are new people, new BS's, new WS's who come on and are told to come clean and then disappear, many of them disappear after getting some advice. Clearly adultery is RAMPANT. It's overwhelming and disheartening.

In my sitch I went through a rebellion after years of lies, at which point I decided that 'what's good for the goose...' applied to me. Not that I had rock solid boundaries before that, but I did have some boundaries. I opened those up to the general populace, flirting, behaving in a rather NON married manner around men. Overnight I had married men from high and low paying attention to me, because I appeared 'open' to the idea of inappropriate behavior of some kind. People I never would have thought would started testing the waters, how far would I take this? I am embarrassed to tell you all this now, of course. I did not carry anything further than flirting with any of them, and I closed the door on my own. The reason is because it totally disgusted and disenheartened me. I thought, is NO ONE trustworthy? Are all people unhappy and ready and willing to cheat at the drop of a hat?

Thats how the SAA forum makes me feel, like life and marriage is covered with a dark cloud, that nobody can be trusted and nobody is faithful. Like its somewhat hopeless to expect fidelity.
Letty - thoughts and prayers for you and Mr. Letty!!!!
(((((((BIG hugs!!!!)))))))))))

I know how you feel. H and I went through a bit of a scare recently and he ended up at the heart doctor, and all was fine, thankfully. More times than not these things are not serious but can serve as a wake up call to take care of ourselves better. I'm sure you will keep us posted.
Interesting points.

I too never exposed as my wife quickly did that even before I started reading the books and website. What is important for me and the reason I offer whatever advice for the newly betrayed who come here is after dday one feels so alone and confused, that if I can say something that comforts him, it makes me feel good, too.

The closest I came to a revenge affair was last summer when OMW showed up at my house unannounced while my wife and kids were out. She made it clear that she'd be OK with it and was desperate to show that she is desirable despite her husband multiple affairs. We sat outside in front of the house for 20 minutes and I sent her home. We (the Betrayed) own the higher moral ground. A brief indulgence, no matter how silent it would remain, knocks you off that ground and you are as low as your spouse. Im sure its different for a woman making herself "available" to other men. But, I dont give off any "come hither vibes" nor would I suggest any women would be receptive.

Many of us guys during 'guy talk' will rate and fantasize about women we see at little league games or school or around town. I feel pretty secure in saying in 99 percent of the time, its just talk. I will say, however, after discovery of my wife's affair that that talk has become something I dislike and dont participate in.

When you get on her for a while you come across many posters who come looking for help, get it, and then you dont hear from them. Every so often you get the, 'geez whatever happened to so and so?' moment. I get disappointed by that. And i also think about how widespread adultery is. I think about the 1000s of other couples who 1) dont come to this site, 2) just pack their stuff and leave the cheater, and 3) conceivably those who just stay and do nothing to solve the problem.

What really gets me upset, to be real here, is when Im with other families and I wonder why is it me who gets to carry this burden for life. Why didnt that guy's wife cheat? My wife once said after I mentioned to her this, "she may not have cheated, but their son has ADHD, she has MS, and he just lost his job. It may not measure up to what I did to you, but somes things can change and be even better, others you cant."
Originally Posted By: unwritten
I am more and more sticking to the recovery threads too. Number one because sometimes I will post something in SAA and think, what do I know about this or that? Such as exposure, PB, etc. I never had to deal with an ongoing A, can not IMAGINE how anyone goes through that, did not do exposure, never had to PB...Also what is disheartening to me is the activity level. Every day there are new people, new BS's, new WS's who come on and are told to come clean and then disappear, many of them disappear after getting some advice. Clearly adultery is RAMPANT. It's overwhelming and disheartening.

In my sitch I went through a rebellion after years of lies, at which point I decided that 'what's good for the goose...' applied to me. Not that I had rock solid boundaries before that, but I did have some boundaries. I opened those up to the general populace, flirting, behaving in a rather NON married manner around men. Overnight I had married men from high and low paying attention to me, because I appeared 'open' to the idea of inappropriate behavior of some kind. People I never would have thought would started testing the waters, how far would I take this? I am embarrassed to tell you all this now, of course. I did not carry anything further than flirting with any of them, and I closed the door on my own. The reason is because it totally disgusted and disenheartened me. I thought, is NO ONE trustworthy? Are all people unhappy and ready and willing to cheat at the drop of a hat?

Thats how the SAA forum makes me feel, like life and marriage is covered with a dark cloud, that nobody can be trusted and nobody is faithful. Like its somewhat hopeless to expect fidelity.


I think a lot of BSs flirt with the idea of flirting - if that makes sense. It is natural when you take such a hit to the ego that you want to be able to still feel worthy and attractive. That's why it's important to have good boundaries, ESPECIALLY when you're vulnerable!

I'm trying hard to educate my children on what it takes to have a good marriage. I certainly don't think it is hopeless to find people who stay faithful, but I now know it isn't like I used to believe - that only "bad" people cheat or are cheated on. Everyone knows the going divorce rate but how many people try to fix it? Or even closer to home - how many people think it will be them??? People don't usually start looking into marriage stuff until it is hitting close to home and by then, it can be too late - or - they go to marriage counselors that really don't have the answers.

I guess we need marriage manuals before we tie the knot! lol

The thing is, the problem only has gotten worse over time. As more and more people cheat and/or divorce, the more that behavior is viewed by the younger generation. As we know, they do what they see us do, not what we tell them to do in many cases. It makes it more likely that they will do the same: unless they are educated otherwise. And...how many go to that trouble? Here on the forum we are all learning and growing but it's a small percentage of the general population.
Originally Posted By: Caracal
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
It can be difficult to read situations that put your mind back into the past. I think that's why for the most part I have stuck with Recovery rather than SAA. I do read there some, but I have conditions for myself: I have to be in the right frame of mind, to go there. If I am feeling at all blue, whether about the A or just in general, I don't let myself go to SAA. If I'm feeling strong and confident, then I will.

With time it is becoming easier to go to SAA and help.

Should I dare chime in here, when clearly I belong in SAA?

Here goes anyway. I found it interesting to read you guys struggle to cross over to SAA. I HAD wondered about this, but wasn't sure. Its understandable. I struggle to read Recovery. I know other Plan B'ers do too. You don't seem to find many of us here. It is hard to read other's threads, or post advice, when we never got the chance. I occasionally come over because of a friend, and also because I think I can learn MB practices here.

But I largely avoid it.

Just wanted to let you know, that you in recovery are INVALUABLE to those in SAA. Especially those that are on the cusp of recovery. You have EXPERIENCE, whereas some of us sadly don't.

Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Marriage really is in trouble. Just the other day I thought about a bunch of couples that were married right around the same time H and I were. Less than half of us are still married.

Oh yeah. My three closest friends... ALL of our marriages have been effected by adultery. One divorced, one happily recovered, and one still working on it. And me on the road to divorce. So... percentages wise, less than 50/50.


You're right, Car - and we can all learn stuff from each other! That's the beauty of such a place as this: we come from different perspectives but we are all on the same MB train - and offer up unique things that still fall under the right principles. AND...we all have different personalities that can help someone - no matter where they are on their journey. We need people of all kinds: the ones who bring on the tough love, the encouragers, the ones that dole out practicals, etc... Hopefully we all try and offer what we can to those we feel can use what it is we have.

It's all about paying it forward, whether in Recover or SAA or anywhere else.

Not only that, but the hope is that we keep learning and growing too: even the oldest of vets.
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Interesting points.

I too never exposed as my wife quickly did that even before I started reading the books and website. What is important for me and the reason I offer whatever advice for the newly betrayed who come here is after dday one feels so alone and confused, that if I can say something that comforts him, it makes me feel good, too.

The closest I came to a revenge affair was last summer when OMW showed up at my house unannounced while my wife and kids were out. She made it clear that she'd be OK with it and was desperate to show that she is desirable despite her husband multiple affairs. We sat outside in front of the house for 20 minutes and I sent her home. We (the Betrayed) own the higher moral ground. A brief indulgence, no matter how silent it would remain, knocks you off that ground and you are as low as your spouse. Im sure its different for a woman making herself "available" to other men. But, I dont give off any "come hither vibes" nor would I suggest any women would be receptive.

Many of us guys during 'guy talk' will rate and fantasize about women we see at little league games or school or around town. I feel pretty secure in saying in 99 percent of the time, its just talk. I will say, however, after discovery of my wife's affair that that talk has become something I dislike and dont participate in.

When you get on her for a while you come across many posters who come looking for help, get it, and then you dont hear from them. Every so often you get the, 'geez whatever happened to so and so?' moment. I get disappointed by that. And i also think about how widespread adultery is. I think about the 1000s of other couples who 1) dont come to this site, 2) just pack their stuff and leave the cheater, and 3) conceivably those who just stay and do nothing to solve the problem.

What really gets me upset, to be real here, is when Im with other families and I wonder why is it me who gets to carry this burden for life. Why didnt that guy's wife cheat? My wife once said after I mentioned to her this, "she may not have cheated, but their son has ADHD, she has MS, and he just lost his job. It may not measure up to what I did to you, but somes things can change and be even better, others you cant."



Your wife is wise, Mike: we may have this burden to carry but others have their own. No one's life is perfect, even if it looks like it from the outside.

I'll admit - sometimes it feels like we are carrying a larger burden because of the mere devastation that infidelity causes. I look at it like this though: we have survived the worse - it makes us very strong people! We have been fire-tested and proven we're tough enough to not just get through - but to thrive. AND...now we have the best insight possible as to how to NOT do marriage as well as how to do it properly. What better gift can we give our children than to impart that knowledge? SO... because of our struggles, perhaps our children will avoid these pitfalls and we can teach them how marriage really works. In that, our burden carries great promise: something we can use to the betterment of our little legacies.

And... I'm right there with you on the "talk" stuff. All the cheer moms used to talk about other men. I was never much to engage in that type of conversation but I certainly laughed along. I don't even find it remotely funny now. In fact, I recently read an article about how married women would love to cheat with Tim Tebow. All I could think was, "With his principles do you really think he wants you thinking that way about him?! That's so disgusting!"
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Interesting points.

I too never exposed as my wife quickly did that even before I started reading the books and website. What is important for me and the reason I offer whatever advice for the newly betrayed who come here is after dday one feels so alone and confused, that if I can say something that comforts him, it makes me feel good, too.

The closest I came to a revenge affair was last summer when OMW showed up at my house unannounced while my wife and kids were out. She made it clear that she'd be OK with it and was desperate to show that she is desirable despite her husband multiple affairs. We sat outside in front of the house for 20 minutes and I sent her home. We (the Betrayed) own the higher moral ground. A brief indulgence, no matter how silent it would remain, knocks you off that ground and you are as low as your spouse. Im sure its different for a woman making herself "available" to other men. But, I dont give off any "come hither vibes" nor would I suggest any women would be receptive.

Many of us guys during 'guy talk' will rate and fantasize about women we see at little league games or school or around town. I feel pretty secure in saying in 99 percent of the time, its just talk. I will say, however, after discovery of my wife's affair that that talk has become something I dislike and dont participate in.

When you get on her for a while you come across many posters who come looking for help, get it, and then you dont hear from them. Every so often you get the, 'geez whatever happened to so and so?' moment. I get disappointed by that. And i also think about how widespread adultery is. I think about the 1000s of other couples who 1) dont come to this site, 2) just pack their stuff and leave the cheater, and 3) conceivably those who just stay and do nothing to solve the problem.

What really gets me upset, to be real here, is when Im with other families and I wonder why is it me who gets to carry this burden for life. Why didnt that guy's wife cheat? My wife once said after I mentioned to her this, "she may not have cheated, but their son has ADHD, she has MS, and he just lost his job. It may not measure up to what I did to you, but somes things can change and be even better, others you cant."



Well, I DID have an RA and I will tell you that is exactly right, you lose your 'victim status' as I like to call it although I am sure many people would disagree with that terminology. Because now I deal with a WH but I also deal with a BH and that is a difficult mix. I have to behave now as a BW but also as a WW who has my own amends to make. It gets complicated in a hurry.

Also, I went through a whole phase of feeling the 'why me.' Shortly after DDay actually, about month 2-4 or so. I remember shopping in a store and walking by a mirror and catching my reflection amongst a sea of people. Now I am not immodest and I will say I stand out in a crowd. I thought, WHY ME. How am I the woman who's H cheated on of all these people. Goes to show you that it isn't just about PA or even about sex but about a million other things.
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Originally Posted By: unwritten
I am more and more sticking to the recovery threads too. Number one because sometimes I will post something in SAA and think, what do I know about this or that? Such as exposure, PB, etc. I never had to deal with an ongoing A, can not IMAGINE how anyone goes through that, did not do exposure, never had to PB...Also what is disheartening to me is the activity level. Every day there are new people, new BS's, new WS's who come on and are told to come clean and then disappear, many of them disappear after getting some advice. Clearly adultery is RAMPANT. It's overwhelming and disheartening.

In my sitch I went through a rebellion after years of lies, at which point I decided that 'what's good for the goose...' applied to me. Not that I had rock solid boundaries before that, but I did have some boundaries. I opened those up to the general populace, flirting, behaving in a rather NON married manner around men. Overnight I had married men from high and low paying attention to me, because I appeared 'open' to the idea of inappropriate behavior of some kind. People I never would have thought would started testing the waters, how far would I take this? I am embarrassed to tell you all this now, of course. I did not carry anything further than flirting with any of them, and I closed the door on my own. The reason is because it totally disgusted and disenheartened me. I thought, is NO ONE trustworthy? Are all people unhappy and ready and willing to cheat at the drop of a hat?

Thats how the SAA forum makes me feel, like life and marriage is covered with a dark cloud, that nobody can be trusted and nobody is faithful. Like its somewhat hopeless to expect fidelity.


I think a lot of BSs flirt with the idea of flirting - if that makes sense. It is natural when you take such a hit to the ego that you want to be able to still feel worthy and attractive. That's why it's important to have good boundaries, ESPECIALLY when you're vulnerable!

I'm trying hard to educate my children on what it takes to have a good marriage. I certainly don't think it is hopeless to find people who stay faithful, but I now know it isn't like I used to believe - that only "bad" people cheat or are cheated on. Everyone knows the going divorce rate but how many people try to fix it? Or even closer to home - how many people think it will be them??? People don't usually start looking into marriage stuff until it is hitting close to home and by then, it can be too late - or - they go to marriage counselors that really don't have the answers.

I guess we need marriage manuals before we tie the knot! lol

The thing is, the problem only has gotten worse over time. As more and more people cheat and/or divorce, the more that behavior is viewed by the younger generation. As we know, they do what they see us do, not what we tell them to do in many cases. It makes it more likely that they will do the same: unless they are educated otherwise. And...how many go to that trouble? Here on the forum we are all learning and growing but it's a small percentage of the general population.


Pre DDay there was more a need to flirt, rebel, feel attractive to someone. But after DDay it was more for me like I felt lost and confused and...single. I really just felt like my M was a big sham, like the core value at least I placed which was sexual fidelity was gone and then what was left? I felt like little to nothing so who cared at the point. Being a BS is a very, very vulnerable place to getting into your own RA in my opinion. If only all BS's knew to come here, unfortunately they don't.

There should be a manual. Dr H should write it. In fact I think he does have something for newlyweds doesn't he?

I agree it is an alarmingly small percentage, and the public at large supports adultery and is anti marriage. I will raise my kids with the MB principles, I already quote them to my 11 yr old! And just the other day I was telling my 20 yr old nephew about how dating is just like an interview... I think they all think I am very old fashioned:-o
And Letty, I am very sorry that there is some major T/J going on here!

I hope you are finding out good news about your H's health.
Originally Posted By: unwritten

Pre DDay there was more a need to flirt, rebel, feel attractive to someone. But after DDay it was more for me like I felt lost and confused and...single. I really just felt like my M was a big sham, like the core value at least I placed which was sexual fidelity was gone and then what was left? I felt like little to nothing so who cared at the point. Being a BS is a very, very vulnerable place to getting into your own RA in my opinion. If only all BS's knew to come here, unfortunately they don't.

There should be a manual. Dr H should write it. In fact I think he does have something for newlyweds doesn't he?

I agree it is an alarmingly small percentage, and the public at large supports adultery and is anti marriage. I will raise my kids with the MB principles, I already quote them to my 11 yr old! And just the other day I was telling my 20 yr old nephew about how dating is just like an interview... I think they all think I am very old fashioned:-o


Yes, you're right: RA's can be a very easy trap for a BS to fall into. There's a thread that IndieGirl has on SAA about how BS's should avoid "vultures" for that very reason.

Most of the public supports adultery, I believe, because they see it as the person who got cheated on must have deserved it somehow. She was a nag or he was abusive... It's a way of being in denial that it could ever happen to you! But - as we all know - that's not the way it works.

And yes, Letty - sorry for the t/j!
I think society supports it because in general we are an entitled selfish bunch and the general sentiment is "you deserve to be happy!" Oh your wife/husband is not making you happy? Well you deserve to be happy.

My sister, years ago before I knew I was a BS (but strangely in retrospect about the exact same time I became one), cheated on her long time live in BF with a married man, who she left her BF for and he left his wife for her. I was very vocal about my feelings on that and it affected our relationship for years (to this day really). I remember having a conversation with her once and she said "don't I deserve to be happy?" And I said, "NO, no you don't deserve to be happy if the price of that happiness is destroying everyone around you." Little did I know!

Oh ya, they are still 'together' although he would never marry her, and she eventually moved to her own house after finding out he...wait for it...cheated on her...and now they are 'on again' 'off again' with no future and she's not happy. So, there's kharma, although hard to see when it's your family.

And his wife divorced him and married a lawyer and to my knowledge they have a great life. smile
Now Letty, I am also wondering what you are doing about this mouse problem. I have a Jack Russell Terrier, I think the mouse would have a hard time getting by him, even in his old age.

Cats these days are just too soft.
Originally Posted By: unwritten
I think society supports it because in general we are an entitled selfish bunch and the general sentiment is "you deserve to be happy!" Oh your wife/husband is not making you happy? Well you deserve to be happy.

My sister, years ago before I knew I was a BS (but strangely in retrospect about the exact same time I became one), cheated on her long time live in BF with a married man, who she left her BF for and he left his wife for her. I was very vocal about my feelings on that and it affected our relationship for years (to this day really). I remember having a conversation with her once and she said "don't I deserve to be happy?" And I said, "NO, no you don't deserve to be happy if the price of that happiness is destroying everyone around you." Little did I know!

Oh ya, they are still 'together' although he would never marry her, and she eventually moved to her own house after finding out he...wait for it...cheated on her...and now they are 'on again' 'off again' with no future and she's not happy. So, there's kharma, although hard to see when it's your family.

And his wife divorced him and married a lawyer and to my knowledge they have a great life. smile


I've had a bit of a different experience but it is probably due to my religious upbringing. In the Christian community "you deserve to be happy" doesn't fly - not when it comes to infidelity. But...it sure doesn't stop "Christians" from having affairs, obviously. That's where I've found the excuse making going on. Because, you know, only something BAD (nagging, abuse, wife letting herself go, husband being lazy or a slob, etc...) must have MADE the cheater cheat.

And yeah - isn't it funny that people never think they will be cheated on, even when they were once the AP.

I truly believe most people think it won't ever happen to them: they're too good or they are wise enough to know how to not let it happen...
Posted By: Letty Re: being able to read threads at SAA - hard? - 07/05/12 09:56 PM
not t/jing at all! i've been quiet because of the time difference. i only got up an hour ago :O)

mouse problem: well, i've had the drawers out for a couple days now and don't see any more mice/signs of mice. i'm hopeful the cats have done their jobs. jack russells are fantastic mousers! they are a very popular dog here in farm country.

husband: well, we've done all the running around to different labs, so now it's wait wait wait. won't know anything until next week. thank you for your thoughts and prayers.

marriage and our young people. :sigh: i don't even know where to start. maybe with a caveat: i'm no saint, and i've made *plenty* of my own mistakes. but it's important that we do these things when we're free and single, and use the lessons learned and apply them with a level head to our lives.

mike: i think it's very well possible that when you're looking around at a group of people thinking it's just you, it's NOT. statistically, some of those wives and/or husbands have probably had an a. you just don't know about it. when i was little i heard my mother say "you don't know what happens behind closed doors." that is so true. no matter how happy on the outside, lots can be going on behind the scenes. how many times do we see people come to SAA and start with "we look like we have the perfect happy M, but..." she also taught me to stay the he11 out of other people's marriages. when i was around 21, i was injured in a car crash. one of the guys from my work sent me flowers. his wife went ballistic. after speaking w/my mum, i told him i couldn't accept his flowers (but thank you for the thought), and that he should never do anything that would upset his wife if he loved her.

our young people! sunny is right: they learn by our actions, not our words. i had a discussion this term with my year 12 students (aged 16, turning 17) about M. some of them voiced the opinion that one should be able to divorce when one "gets bored." wow, did i toss the lesson out the window and have a big convo about that! but what will my words mean when they see adults around them not marry, switch partners, have children by various men?

i've also had multiple conversations with my year 13s (17, most 18 or almost) about fidelity in marriage (thanks othello!) at this age, boys are more grown up. they agreed that fidelity in a relationship was important. great conversation around emilia's comment that a wife can commit infidelity if it will enhance her husband in some way (move him up the job ladder, etc). also some good discussion on othello's tragic flaw, that he was able to believe iago's words. we were able to transfer that right into their lives - if your best friend tells you your girl is cheating, how can you ever get past it when there's nothing she can say (just like desdemona) that can prove her fidelity and loyalty once that suspicion has blossomed?

last night there was a UK show on (very) young people and promiscuity. it was called "underage and (something)." there was a 14yo girl on there who had already had multiple partners! and a discussion of "linking." they no longer have boyfriends, or even "hook up," just sex with buddies when it "feels right." no commitment of any kind. and there's lots of experimentation with bisexuality too.

these silly girls have no idea that they are just being used for sex, and that their "friends" aren't really their friends. they are also training up these young men to believe that it's ok to dip your wick whenever and wherever you want. terrible.

nz girls are pretty similar. lots of experimenting at a young age, lots of binge drinking, lots of sex partners. and sadly, they don't practice safe sex, as both our teen pregnancy and STD rates are horrifyingly high. i feel very, very lucky that i was able to navigate my own DD (who identifies herself as american, not kiwi) through the minefield of adolescence here. many times i cursed myself for raising her here. it's great when they're little, but the teen years...it's very common for parents to go away on holiday and leave their 15-16yo kids home alone for up to weeks at a time! why not just hand them a loaded gun? anyhow, my girl doesn't drink (well, she'll nurse 1 drink all night), and waited until she was of legal age for sex w/her long term boyfriend, and uses contraception. girls these days have such a range of options for contraception, i can't believe how few take advantage! we have a nurse at school once a week, and each week i remind my form class (homeroom) that the nurse is here today and she gives out free condoms! too many boys get their g/fs pregnant each year (about 10 at my school alone). thank goodness here you can talk with your students about such things. someone's got to!

M and infidelity: i work at a boys school in a male environment. 10% of our staff are female, but half of those are clerical. only a handful of us in departments. after my Hs a, i felt trapped in a cave with bloodthirsty rats. hmm, that doesn't really capture how i felt. it was two-fold. otoh, i felt that everyone looked down on me (she can't keep her H at home! [even though they didn't know of my sitch]) otoh, i also felt like every single one of them were liars and cheaters, not to be trusted with anything! it took me about a year to be ok at work again. and now i can actually chat with my coworkers to some extent. having said that, i never felt bad with my students. they are so young and so open and honest. they were easy to be with - not jaded yet, you know?

like every population (work), there is a % of people who are, well, loose with their behaviour. there are at least 2 men i know of that are now divorced after playing away from home (as they say here), and one woman who is also now divorcing, who has always spent time with those two. lots of drinking goes on, which only expands the poor behaviour. workplaces here are big on after-work drinks and get togethers. i attend nothing, except our xmas dinner, which includes spouses. not because of the a -i'm just not wired like that. after working all day, i want to go home to my family! not spend more time with other people! but they often hire a bus to take them out drinking, and kiwis drink like alcoholics (binge). no one thinks it's odd to drink to the point of vomiting. gross! i tell my boys that where i'm from, a man isn't admired if he can't hold his liquor. and that a woman expects her escort to keep her safe at all times. a date can't do that if he's blotto. they think i'm pretty prudish. i don't mind a drink, but generally only drink at new year's or the xmas dinner out. my H doesn't drink either, for no particular reason. i am so glad i married someone who doesn't think it's normal to "got out with the boys" on a friday night!

wow, this post is getting pretty long! i'd better shut up now! i'd still like to hear your thoughts on this though.
Letty,

So since I have become invested in my crazy post A married life, MB concepts, etc. I have become ultrasensitive to the societal views of marriage, fidelity, etc. It is not uncommon for me to peruse through a thick Sunday paper and find the one article that is anti marriage and/or pro adultery and go on about it for a good long time.

I feel committed to speaking out to people about how to have a good marriage and protect from A's, based on the MB concepts I have learned.

I have even thought, if I get through this and actually learn how to have a good marriage and live to that, maybe I should start doing premarital counseling for the church or something to 'pay it forward.' I think many people on here think 'if only I had known when I walked down the aisle what I know now...' Seems the best place to pass along that knowledge is from the beginning.

Wouldn't it be GREAT if we had classes in high school about healthy relationships and marriages, based on the MB concepts? I know all those kids would roll their eyes and say we were prudes, but at the end of the day I think most kids STILL think they will fall in lurve and get married and have a happy marriage. So, they might pay a 'little' attention to what that meant.

My 11 yr old daughter took a babysitting class this summer. She came home and told me all the things she learned, and asked me when you have a baby where you learn all that. I said, you don't. Well how do you know not to put a baby on its stomach. I guess some people don't. Well isn't there a class or something? Nope. You can just have a baby and bring it home and you don't need to know ANYTHING about it.

My point here is that all over the world people get married, have families, etc. and yet it seems of very little importance to teach the RIGHT ways to do this to our kids. We still teach them how to square dance tho! Cuz that might come in handy some day...
Posted By: Letty Re: being able to read threads at SAA - hard? - 07/05/12 10:41 PM
yes, it would be great to have a class! when i was in hs, i took "marriage and family." unfortunately, it, like our whole culture, kinda ended at the wedding (i still have my wedding plan book!). we did walk around with eggs for a week, and washed and diapered baby dolls, but there wasn't anything about the glue that makes a *marriage,* or how to handle conflict, or how to integrate lives. and those are the important bits! i mean, we ask schools to take on so much of what should be home learning (religion, ethics, manners, behaviour, etc), but this is much more practical and important, and is something all young people really *need* to learn. sure, they may roll their eyes and stuff, but when they get older, some of those things will be remembered when they need it. and that will get them investigating again and finding out how to handle a sitch before it gets to crisis point (i would hope).

the most important thing about marriage is learning to be integrated. we are all so set in our IB that it is hard to give it up. and culturally, IB is encouraged. but it is crucial if we are to have happy, successful marriages that thrive long term.

you know how on talk shows they sometimes have these men that think a woman should be a slave to her H? she puts out his clothes, cuts his toenails, brushes his teeth, etc, and does everything around the house? and then also has a JOB? (caveat: i'm a feminist, and not afraid to label myself such. but a husband has a role in the family, and he needs to BE it!) what really irritates me about that is that if the man was so much of a man, he would be *leading* the family, not sitting back being catered to like an infant while doing nothing to be a man! learning how to be a husband is just as important as how to be a wife! classes should be mandatory for *boys* and girls.
Originally Posted By: unwritten
Thats how the SAA forum makes me feel, like life and marriage is covered with a dark cloud, that nobody can be trusted and nobody is faithful. Like its somewhat hopeless to expect fidelity.

Oh, I totally understand this unwritten.

As I continue my personal recovery, I am overwhelmed by the numbers that continue to show up on SAA.

However, IMO... this is what makes it so important that those in recovery post over in SAA if they are able to.

So those that appear who have the chance to recover their marriage (and choose to do so), know that others can, and do, recover their marriages.
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Hopefully we all try and offer what we can to those we feel can use what it is we have.

It's all about paying it forward, whether in Recover or SAA or anywhere else.

Not only that, but the hope is that we keep learning and growing too: even the oldest of vets.

clap

I agree. We all have our own ways of supporting, but as long as it follows MB practices, well done. Those posting as well as those reading are learning. But an extra special thanks to those posting. I know when I staggered upon MB, I was desperate. Without the posters, this forum would not exist. Yes, the Harley's are the guides... but many of us sadly never get the opportunity to access their guidance. For whatever reason, the WS, finances, whatever, this forum allows us the opportunity to access expert advice on how to recover marriages or ourselves. I will always be grateful. Wow Letty, we (myself included) really are TJing. Oops!
Originally Posted By: Caracal
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Hopefully we all try and offer what we can to those we feel can use what it is we have.

It's all about paying it forward, whether in Recover or SAA or anywhere else.

Not only that, but the hope is that we keep learning and growing too: even the oldest of vets.

clap

I agree. We all have our own ways of supporting, but as long as it follows MB practices, well done. Those posting as well as those reading are learning. But an extra special thanks to those posting. I know when I staggered upon MB, I was desperate. Without the posters, this forum would not exist. Yes, the Harley's are the guides... but many of us sadly never get the opportunity to access their guidance. For whatever reason, the WS, finances, whatever, this forum allows us the opportunity to access expert advice on how to recover marriages or ourselves. I will always be grateful. Wow Letty, we (myself included) really are TJing. Oops!


I don't know where I would be today without the guidance of others on such an important struggle. I doubt my marriage would have survived.

As for TJing, Letty DID say she wanted to hear our thoughts! LOL

smile

When you describe the attitudes of the younger generation, Letty, it isn't hard to see why so many marriages fail to be good or lasting unions. I don't know that the older generations had it all together, but they did understand hard work and seeing things through. They had more patience too, because they didn't have such immediate gratification that we do nowadays. Marriage and childrearing has evolved - and not for the better in many ways. Although, I wouldn't want to go back to "women should be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen" either!

I don't know what the answer is except education; the problem is, most don't seek knowledge until they're already in deep waters. Then, you have to throw them a life preserver and THEN teach them to swim.

A lot of churches now have marriage enrichment programs - but is it enough? Or, is it even the right information? And even if it is, how many actually attend that kind of thing?

Unwritten - with budget cuts all over the place, it's unlikely that schools will ever see any kind of program where kids are taught what it takes to make marriage worse. Society pays no attention to the growing divorce rate. That doesn't help. It's like anything else: nothing is done about it until the issue is somehow forced. Well - except, like you said, for square dancing: that's a must, apparently! LOL

It's funny you should mention your thoughts about premarriage counseling/church. I've thought along the same lines - in a way. I have considered approaching my pastor to let him know if he has anyone struggling with these issues, I would be happy to be a person he could give their # to - as someone who's been there, done that. Although, if the person was male I would want H to talk with them, not me!

Posted By: Letty Re: being able to read threads at SAA - hard? - 07/08/12 10:10 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
When you describe the attitudes of the younger generation, Letty, it isn't hard to see why so many marriages fail to be good or lasting unions. I don't know that the older generations had it all together, but they did understand hard work and seeing things through. They had more patience too, because they didn't have such immediate gratification that we do nowadays. Marriage and childrearing has evolved - and not for the better in many ways. Although, I wouldn't want to go back to "women should be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen" either!


nz is an agnostic country. i find this refreshing in a way - it was lovely to not have to listen to hysterical voices yelling about abortion or gay marriage on the news every day! and they're generally not a topic of conversation among regular people either. and no one gives a rat's behind what religion the prime minister is, or whether he goes to church.

having said that, more than 95% (straw poll) of my kids (students) don't even know basic bible stories, as they have never been to sunday school. regardless of faith, the bible grounds all of our literature. it's almost impossible to discuss intertextuality when they don't know the basics! and i'm talking moses and the bullrushes, burning bush, ten commandments; jonah and the whale; the good Samaritan; the stories that most people tend to know about because they perforate our culture in various ways.

i have 2 kids in my year 13 class who know bible stories, and one of them is quite religious. but that's an extreme rarity in comparison to my other 4 classes. thank goodness they were able to ground the rest of the class when studying othello and a clockwork orange. on a high note, they were all horrified by alex's actions in ACO. we are not steeped in violence here, which provides contrast. well, at least stranger-violence. we have a terrible domestic violence problem. one of our biggest court cases ended last week when a man was found not guilty of killing his BIL (his wife's brother - the two wives were best friends).

on a side note, this is the second time i have taught the accelerate year 9 class. both times, the parents of these students have all been married (to each other). an interesting correlation. the lower down the stream you go, the more broken the home.

i'm not up for barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen either. and if we went back far enough, i'd probably be burned at the stake as a heretic, which enthuses me not at all. but even i had my child go to sunday school, and even a year of all-girls catholic school (i know, my usa friends were aghast! plus, it's quite different from usa catholic school. i taught there for a year myself before making the decision). if nothing else, learning the bible as literature is imperative for many reasons.

back to reading at saa. i tripped over it myself yesterday. i don't know if it was AIs WH and broken EPs, or one of the many other threads, including 4 new ones since i'd last logged in just over 24 hours, but i triggered big time, and am still feeling out of sorts this morning. my brain keeps reminding me that all is well, my safety and security in our relationship is supported by means (ok, snooping). i think i just had a FR flashback. it sucks.

i think it's very important to keep posting, because we have such a huge number of readers that aren't members. they are grasping at whatever they can in the midst of their own marital he11. it's important, i think, for them to get an idea of the ongoing hard work, the ups and downs, and both the successes and failures (failures of M so often = success in PR when using MB).
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
I don't know that the older generations had it all together, but they did understand hard work and seeing things through. They had more patience too, because they didn't have such immediate gratification that we do nowadays.


My parents just celebrated their 50 yr anniversary. My inlaws will be there in just a couple yrs. Yet IMO they are not 'happily married.' I think there is a huge difference between quantity and quality and I do think they have more the 'married at all cost' approach that MB does NOT support. So, I am glad we are not following that trend anymore.

I just think people don't KNOW how to have a good M. You are right that they don't seek help until they are in crisis. At the very least they could require kids to read HNHN and LB in 'marriage and family' class smile

There are so many times I think about how I would have handled X, Y or Z a year ago even, before being privy to the MB program. I don't think I was BAD as much as shaped by the media and naive and ignorant. For instance, I never thought it was wrong to date while you were working toward a D. I know people who have been in the D process for years, why would they wait to date for years? I have a different perspective on the sanctity of M now and see it differently, but I don't necessarily see everyone who thinks the opposite as bad and evil and a bunch of cheaters, because I have been there too. KWIM? Education is the key to having successful M's, this is not knowledge we are born with.

But ya, that whole budget thing.
Originally Posted By: Letty
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
When you describe the attitudes of the younger generation, Letty, it isn't hard to see why so many marriages fail to be good or lasting unions. I don't know that the older generations had it all together, but they did understand hard work and seeing things through. They had more patience too, because they didn't have such immediate gratification that we do nowadays. Marriage and childrearing has evolved - and not for the better in many ways. Although, I wouldn't want to go back to "women should be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen" either!


if nothing else, learning the bible as literature is imperative for many reasons.

back to reading at saa. i tripped over it myself yesterday. i don't know if it was AIs WH and broken EPs, or one of the many other threads, including 4 new ones since i'd last logged in just over 24 hours, but i triggered big time, and am still feeling out of sorts this morning. my brain keeps reminding me that all is well, my safety and security in our relationship is supported by means (ok, snooping). i think i just had a FR flashback. it sucks.

i think it's very important to keep posting, because we have such a huge number of readers that aren't members. they are grasping at whatever they can in the midst of their own marital he11. it's important, i think, for them to get an idea of the ongoing hard work, the ups and downs, and both the successes and failures (failures of M so often = success in PR when using MB).


Sorry for the trigger, Letty. It would be nice if they would just go away - but they don't, do they?! frown You're right: it's important to keep posting. It IS work to recover - whether personally, in the marriage, or both. A lot of times we think of recovery as "feeling good - not feeling hurt anymore" but that definition gets us into trouble. True recovery is having a better life than ever before! Just keep that in mind and the triggers won't bring you down so much - or at least, that's been my experience.

As for the bible as literature... it's a good point. Most people who are agnostics will also concede that it gives very good principles for living your life. Personally, I found that having grown up with a very self-righteous, religious mother, it was quite a long journey for me to figure out what TRUE Christianity was about rather than what the image of it is. But that's another story.

I just noticed that in my post above, I mentioned making "Marriage WORSE" and I meant marriage WORK. LOL. OH well - too late to edit.
Originally Posted By: unwritten
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
I don't know that the older generations had it all together, but they did understand hard work and seeing things through. They had more patience too, because they didn't have such immediate gratification that we do nowadays.


My parents just celebrated their 50 yr anniversary. My inlaws will be there in just a couple yrs. Yet IMO they are not 'happily married.' I think there is a huge difference between quantity and quality and I do think they have more the 'married at all cost' approach that MB does NOT support. So, I am glad we are not following that trend anymore.

I just think people don't KNOW how to have a good M. You are right that they don't seek help until they are in crisis. At the very least they could require kids to read HNHN and LB in 'marriage and family' class smile

There are so many times I think about how I would have handled X, Y or Z a year ago even, before being privy to the MB program. I don't think I was BAD as much as shaped by the media and naive and ignorant. For instance, I never thought it was wrong to date while you were working toward a D. I know people who have been in the D process for years, why would they wait to date for years? I have a different perspective on the sanctity of M now and see it differently, but I don't necessarily see everyone who thinks the opposite as bad and evil and a bunch of cheaters, because I have been there too. KWIM? Education is the key to having successful M's, this is not knowledge we are born with.

But ya, that whole budget thing.




Yes, quality and quantity aren't always the same - that's for sure! My parents have been married 52 years but I wouldn't call it happy. Yet - I've seen some married that long that are blissfully happy - but - they work at it. At the core always seems to be respect as much as love. It's quite a site when you witness it.

Marriage at all cost is definitely NOT the goal. Still, I can't help thinking way too many people throw it away way too easily. They move on and get married again and don't solve any of their issues and just end up in yet another non-satisfying union.
Originally Posted By: unwritten
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
I don't know that the older generations had it all together, but they did understand hard work and seeing things through. They had more patience too, because they didn't have such immediate gratification that we do nowadays.


My parents just celebrated their 50 yr anniversary. My inlaws will be there in just a couple yrs. Yet IMO they are not 'happily married.' I think there is a huge difference between quantity and quality and I do think they have more the 'married at all cost' approach that MB does NOT support. So, I am glad we are not following that trend anymore.

I just think people don't KNOW how to have a good M. You are right that they don't seek help until they are in crisis. At the very least they could require kids to read HNHN and LB in 'marriage and family' class smile

There are so many times I think about how I would have handled X, Y or Z a year ago even, before being privy to the MB program. I don't think I was BAD as much as shaped by the media and naive and ignorant. For instance, I never thought it was wrong to date while you were working toward a D. I know people who have been in the D process for years, why would they wait to date for years? I have a different perspective on the sanctity of M now and see it differently, but I don't necessarily see everyone who thinks the opposite as bad and evil and a bunch of cheaters, because I have been there too. KWIM? Education is the key to having successful M's, this is not knowledge we are born with.

But ya, that whole budget thing.




Personally, I think it should be both QUALITY and QUANTITY. However, no one is able to have QUALITY, ALL THE TIME, life happens and adversity strikes during different phases of our lives. Incompatibility is a FARCE. Any two people can learn to love each other properly if they're willing to make the proper adjustments and implement the creativity required to do so. I'm a big believer that marriage teaches how to become a better and more whole person. Selfishness is the root cause to divorce, and unfortunately it only takes one party to terminate a marriage due to a selfish nature.
mommyof3monkeys, I would keep all the emails especially the one about sending a care package. The OW is about to get herself in serious trouble with the federal government when she starts talking about sending packages along with what she has said in her emails. You might want to contact the USPS inspectors and let them know what is going on. That might be enough for the inspectors to make a visit to her to explain what she means by "a care package".
Originally Posted By: Hopeful_Hubby
Originally Posted By: unwritten
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
I don't know that the older generations had it all together, but they did understand hard work and seeing things through. They had more patience too, because they didn't have such immediate gratification that we do nowadays.


My parents just celebrated their 50 yr anniversary. My inlaws will be there in just a couple yrs. Yet IMO they are not 'happily married.' I think there is a huge difference between quantity and quality and I do think they have more the 'married at all cost' approach that MB does NOT support. So, I am glad we are not following that trend anymore.

I just think people don't KNOW how to have a good M. You are right that they don't seek help until they are in crisis. At the very least they could require kids to read HNHN and LB in 'marriage and family' class smile

There are so many times I think about how I would have handled X, Y or Z a year ago even, before being privy to the MB program. I don't think I was BAD as much as shaped by the media and naive and ignorant. For instance, I never thought it was wrong to date while you were working toward a D. I know people who have been in the D process for years, why would they wait to date for years? I have a different perspective on the sanctity of M now and see it differently, but I don't necessarily see everyone who thinks the opposite as bad and evil and a bunch of cheaters, because I have been there too. KWIM? Education is the key to having successful M's, this is not knowledge we are born with.

But ya, that whole budget thing.




Personally, I think it should be both QUALITY and QUANTITY. However, no one is able to have QUALITY, ALL THE TIME, life happens and adversity strikes during different phases of our lives. Incompatibility is a FARCE. Any two people can learn to love each other properly if they're willing to make the proper adjustments and implement the creativity required to do so. I'm a big believer that marriage teaches how to become a better and more whole person. Selfishness is the root cause to divorce, and unfortunately it only takes one party to terminate a marriage due to a selfish nature.


This is true, that life throws things our way that are not easy and we go through hard times. However, if you are constantly doing the real work and putting each other first, those times are "us against the world" rather than "us against each other." Even in times of disagreement the marriage can have quality because you are learning and growing in those times. A hard POJA situation, for instance, can teach you a lot about your spouse - if you dig deep. That's what is different about doing things the MB way: the goal is always striving for a deeper understanding and therefore, better quality AND quantity of years.

As for incompatibility being a farce - I do believe marriage is easier if certain things are considered when choosing a spouse: that you agree on the big stuff. Most people don't even look at those things and then are surprised to learn that their spouse never intends to move out of their hometown, or insists that their children are educated in a certain religious philosophy, or that their spouse never intends to even have children. (Just a few off the top of my head.) BUT... most incompatibility issues can be resolved through negotiations and POJA.
I just listened to some excellent clips on compatibility/personalities.
Radio clip on introverts and extroverts
Radio clip on different types of personality
Posted By: Letty Re: being able to read threads at SAA - hard? - 07/10/12 10:21 PM
well, H and i went to the dr yesterday for test results. his scan is clear, and blood is good, except for elevated cholesterol. he's also a little heavy and needs to lose 15lbs.

otoh, i have been diagnosed with diabetes. on top of lupus and depression, that just seems mean. i'm not horribly overweight (size 12), but my weight has increased in the last year or two and so have my eating habits, after being idle for a long time with the botched knee replacement op. sigh this reminds me of when i tried to eat well when pregnant: got gallstones. and when i tried to increase protein in my diet: got kidney stones. i HATE lupus! i really have to go watch the last episode of house and see if the last patient has lupus - it'd be about time!

so...i had my last ciggie at 4pm yesterday (dr was at 4.30). that's 18 hours now, with only a small craving that is more habit-based. also tried equal in my tea this morning. bleech! so much sweeter than sugar! any recommendations there? it's also quite expensive (paid $6.59 for a box of 50 sachets), so i don't envision baking with it any time soon.

believe it or not, i'm more worried about how this will affect EN meeting! H really likes it when i prepare food for him. in the last week alone i've made brownies, cookies, scones, and a spiced-apple bundt cake. no wonder we're fat (of course, i AM on holiday)! i'm wondering how i can meet the love language of acts of service if i can no longer provide yummy goodness. H, of course, says that i don't need to bake anything at all, but i see results comparing when i don't and when i do.
-->rock(me)hard place<--

ok, good news: not insulin dependent. caught very early (2 years ago my sugar was perfect). but i am the first woman in my family with lupus who has lived past 40. my dad also had diabetes, and lasted only about 10 years after diagnosis (insulin dependent). granted, he'd been a lot harder on his body than i have, and he had heart disease and congestive heart failure to boot, or as my family call it, agent orange-inflicted complicating diseases.

i am very happy that H is well and good. i was so worried about losing him. now, of course, i'm feeling rather petulant. ::bratty voice:: so unfair! /bratty voice.

well, guess no time like the present to review EN questionnaires!
I am happy to hear of your H's good health, but that is really too bad about the diabetes. It does seem a tad unfair for you to have to deal with so much.

Oh I am with you about the cooking/baking thing. I love to cook and bake, but I do NOT cook healthy. I'm a homegrown midwestern and cook with bacon and butter. REAL butter and not the processed stuff. H LOVES the food I cook and I am a natural 'server' too so happily serve him like I am being paid for it, I can tell he likes that and regularly thanks me for it. But, the downside its unhealthy, doesn't help with either of us in terms of PA (not a high need of mine but a higher need of his), and frankly, I am at home all day and then I am tempted to eat when there is good food around. Likewise, he asks me to cook healthy but when I do he always complains about the food and seems to secondhandedly hold me responsible for the unsatisfying meal. It is a rock and hard place.
Posted By: Letty Re: being able to read threads at SAA - hard? - 07/10/12 11:53 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
I am happy to hear of your H's good health, but that is really too bad about the diabetes. It does seem a tad unfair for you to have to deal with so much.

Oh I am with you about the cooking/baking thing. I love to cook and bake, but I do NOT cook healthy. I'm a homegrown midwestern and cook with bacon and butter. REAL butter and not the processed stuff. H LOVES the food I cook and I am a natural 'server' too so happily serve him like I am being paid for it, I can tell he likes that and regularly thanks me for it. But, the downside its unhealthy, doesn't help with either of us in terms of PA (not a high need of mine but a higher need of his), and frankly, I am at home all day and then I am tempted to eat when there is good food around. Likewise, he asks me to cook healthy but when I do he always complains about the food and seems to secondhandedly hold me responsible for the unsatisfying meal. It is a rock and hard place.



i had to chuckle when i got to your last 2 lines! grin

i too love cooking, and i only cook with the real stuff. i've always been against putting synthetic crap in my beloved food! i've always, in the back of my mind, felt that synthetic foods contributed greatly to the cancer rate. diet soda and the like have always had a place in my "hated foods" list, so i won't be drinking any of that swill. i guess i'll be adding to my 2 litres of water a day (often 4 litres, now i know why), excluding tea.

Originally Posted By: unwritten
I can tell he likes that and regularly thanks me for it.

when I do [cook healthy] he always complains about the food and seems to secondhandedly hold me responsible for the unsatisfying meal.


these two lines stood out to me the most - my H is JUST like that! sigh i guess i'm going to have to do what i did early on in our marriage: cook two meals/additional side dishes. my H won't touch rice or pasta (unless it's from a chinese takeaway joint - go figure?!), so i'm going to get the rice cooker back out and replace my potatoes.

when we married, i often cooked two meals, because he's a meat & potatoes guy, and i'm not. but all these years later i find myself eating what he eats, including all the crap after dinner. i had never, in nearly 30 years, eaten after dinner! but when he comes upstairs to bed with cornettos, or caramels, or tootsie rolls (which we recently found here), well...we need to get back to basics. when we first met, our after dinner treat was fruit! H would cut it up and we'd share it (watermelon, oranges, things like that).

now we are two middle-aged old farts! how did we get this way? lmao, time to actually take care of ourselves again. at least now i have a way to get him to walk after dinner!

on a side note: has anyone here read neil gaiman & terry pratchett's Good Omens? it's about the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse (and the second coming, kinda; don't read unless you want to bust a gut from laughter. i literally blew coca-cola out my nostrils when i got the footnote on English currency). Famine is famous for creating a chain of fast food joints that serve food with 0 nutritional value, but heaps of calories. he gets giddy around anorexia, and releases a bunch of frozen "dinners" that have 0 calories, while appearing to be hearty. (i think i remember that right. something like that, anyway.) remind y'all of anything? grin
UGH...so sorry to hear about the diabetes, Letty! frown I know it must feel like a sucker punch after going through everything else.

I COMPLETELY relate to your cooking quandary. I go through the exact same thing all the time. My H says he is fine with me cooking healthy, but I get a lot more spark out of him when I cook his favorites that aren't healthy! And...not just from him, but from the rest of the family too. They would rather me cook for them than go out to a restaurant, even. They even bring their friends around for dinner every chance they get.

This is actually something I've thought about a lot lately because a lot of the fun at my house resolves around this: our home being the place everyone likes to hang out because I'll always whip up something good for them.

I think what it comes down to is planning. As a family if we can come up with certain nights that are healthy nights and others that are splurge nights, at least we will be on the right path to some degree. (Well, as long as healthy is more often than splurge, lol.) I tell ya - planning is NOT one of my strong suits, however, esp. when it comes to food.

There are certain substitutions I am learning that work - without having to resort to yucky chemicals over natural ingredients. Greek yogurt, for instance, can easily replace sour cream and mayo in a lot of cases. As for sweeteners, the only one I trust is Truvia/Stevia. It isn't cheap, however.

Oh - another trick I am using when it comes to splurges is to eat less of it and eat more slowly - especially at restaurants as their portion sizes are double what we need to begin with.

I've caught a couple episodes of Bobby Deen's new cooking show, "My Mama's Meals" and am wanting to try his recipes. As someone who grew up learning to cook very southern - I think his dishes might appeal to me.

What I'm learning is, the health of my family is an act of love, even if they don't appreciate the switches at first. LOL. Perhaps this is something we can all tackle together!
Posted By: Letty Re: being able to read threads at SAA - hard? - 07/11/12 11:35 PM
we need to start a recipe sharing thread! lol.

i noticed today (with my glasses on) that equal = 2 tsps of sugar. no wonder my tea yesterday was bleech! today i used about 1/3 sachet and it's ok. not great, but doable. seems to still have a sacchariny flavour, but that just might be in my head.

when DD lived at home, our house was the same (though probably less busy w/just 1 kid's friends!). even now, when she comes home, she contacts me first to ask if i'll make this or that, and can her friends come over and i'll make nachos for them all. mexican-style food around our town is unknown. though i do the best i can with my limited ingredient availability.

great to hear about yogurt as a substitute! i think i've heard about unsweetened applesauce as well. i've found a brand here that isn't sweetened. kiwis have a huge sweet tooth. even their marshmallows are flavoured! so is the applesauce :-P i always bring back some powered sugar, because i am positive the icing sugar is sweeter, and not suitable for buttercream frosting! ummm, buttercream...

my friend and i are going to the new usa-style bakery just down the hill from us today to check out her goodies. i figure she can buy one and i'll have a bite. the nurse dietician here said that they no longer eschew all sugar in the diet, so i've planned my whole day's menu around that one bite! it'd better be worth it! and i'm not bringing any home for H. he really does need to lower his cholesterol and lose those 15lbs, as much as i like him with a little weight on. but 6' and 205lbs will still do me just fine smile

argh, he looked through my paperwork from doctor and now knows EXACTLY HOW MUCH I WEIGH! i can't imagine anything more embarrassing! well, ...nope, nothing! so now, of course, i'm worried he thinks i'm all fat and horrible. though yesterday afternoon he came home early and we went for a beach drive and to the hot pools, with a little sf thrown in there, so i can't be that bad, right? :*)

my biggest problem is sweets. i eat a pretty good diet, except for having allowed sweets to accumulate. so getting rid of that daily "sweet spot" should make a heap of difference (i hope). we don't go to restaurants too often (very expensive here), and i don't care for fast food, so mostly it's all my own doing.

on a side note: in the last 11 years, i have noticed a drastic change in kiwis. when we first came here, there was only mcdonalds in our town. not even a fast-food style pizza joint. and everyone looked normal and healthy, and downright glowing from their active-outdoor lifestyles. now, though, we have BK, KFC, subway, dominoes, pizza hut, 2 noodle joints, and a number of fish & chip shops have been purchased by chinese who run a chinese fast-food sidecar to the fish & chips. and guess what? when i sit in town now, watching people go by, so many are now overweight. and i don't think it's just the availability of fast food. it has coincided with a radical change in lifestyle here which sees both parents working, and couples divorcing, just over the last decade.

i remember when i was a kid, McDs was a treat - a REAL treat. maybe 1 or 2x/year! i only have 1 memory of actually going to mcdonalds. kids these days are eating, at best, mcDs or other ff at least 2x/week. and god knows they all spend their money in the fast food shops/dairies (pies [a pie is a meat pie, think small pot pie in pastry] and sausage rolls) even when not dinner time. as a matter of fact, from what i SEE at school, most kids have way too much cash. they stop at the dairy before school for a pie & 2 litre pepsi/mountain dew, or worse, one of those nasty "energy" drinks like mother or monster. they eat chips. they go to the tuck shop (school shop) and get more pies & lollies. they hit the dairy again after school for even MORE sweets. in the one closest, you can't even get in the door for 1/2 hour! i see that they bring pretty decent packed lunches to school - sandwiches, fruit, yogurt, carrots, and usually some baked item. however, i also see a LOT of this gets thrown around, mashed on the ground, and dumped in bins. what a waste! and what a shame.

ok, i'm just running off at the mouth here. time for me to get going! y'all have a healthy day!
Posted By: Letty Re: being able to read threads at SAA - hard? - 07/12/12 11:57 PM
i've just read this article on a sex survey of women born in the 1800s. this stood out:

Quote:
One woman, born in 1867, wrote that before marriage she believed sex to be only for reproduction, but later changed her mind: "In my experience the habitual bodily expression of love has a deep psychological effect in making possible complete mental sympathy & perfecting the spiritual union that must be the lasting 'marriage' after the passion of love has passed away with the years."


here's the main article at Stanford Magazine.

even in the "olden" days, women (and, presumably men, since the women found it pleasurable) found SF an important facet of a good M!
Interesting article!

I also remember when McD's was a treat instead of a go-to thing. Crazy how different our society has become. I guess it's just a sign of the times. Women started working outside of the home more, kids activities got ramped up instead of playing outside in the neighborhood, and we all needed food on the go a lot more! But... it's definitely not without its health drawbacks.

As for the hubby knowing your weight - look at it this way: it's part of O&H and the two of you knowing and understanding each other even better than before. Shame usually is what's behind us wanting to keep something from our spouses (or others) and to let go of that, with the person that shares your life, is very freeing! It's another step towards deepening your love and commitment to each other. smile
Letty what is wrong with your husband knowing your weight? I know my wife's weight, passwords, medications she takes, and have access to all her friends phone numbers as she has the same from me. I go with her to most doctor visits she does the same with me. That is what a marriage is all about. Complete transparency.
Hrm. Thats complex.

Yes there is the O&H aspect, but there is also the PA aspect. What if PA is very important to your H? You might wear a push up bra, clothes that accent your good features and make your not so good features a little less unflattering. Do you tell your H all of those things or do you just do your best to look nice without divulging your methods? (Until he gets you naked, then he'll know anyway, lol.)

Or, I certainly try to 'act like a lady' around H, whereas I might not act the same when I am alone. I can burp like a trucker, but in 13 yrs he's never heard me! I don't think he needs to know I can burp like a trucker (although I bet he could guess...).

My point is, is O&H really telling your spouse EVERY detail about you, even those that you might think are unflattering and unattractive?

T/J again Letty, I love your thread! Such a wealth of random need meeting conversation smile
Posted By: Letty Re: being able to read threads at SAA - hard? - 07/13/12 10:46 PM
Originally Posted By: lightsout
Letty what is wrong with your husband knowing your weight? I know my wife's weight, passwords, medications she takes, and have access to all her friends phone numbers as she has the same from me. I go with her to most doctor visits she does the same with me. That is what a marriage is all about. Complete transparency.


oh he has open and honest access to everything in my life! he's welcome to my purse, my wallet, my computer, attends dr visits, picks up all my drugs (and i have lots) knows every penny i spend and on what, and so on, but my WEIGHT? faint

LO, you're male. it's a girl thing. i was born and raised in southern california, and by an older generation. as unwritten said, there are some things we just don't DO in front of our Hs. my H has never heard me, um, pass gas, EVER. i just can't, even after 18 years! it's like potty training for girls - a mental noose. he's tried to get me to, but i just CAN'T! all those years of training at my mother's knees would strangle me. he did, however, finally get me to say the word "fart." my mother would die! so knowing my weight? i don't have any women friends that would reveal their real weight to their partners - even my nz friends!

but you're right, LO, you are. him knowing it, and still thinking i'm beautiful, is incredibly freeing. it's just so hard to break that stranglehold, break through that fear, that thinking, my god, now he *probably* is thinking how gross and disgusting i am, based solely on that number (that's another bad habit - being so presumptuous that we think we know what our men are thinking). it's a huge mental hurdle. but yes, LO, i'm glad he knows, though i don't think i'd ever be able to tell him myself. sure, he knows the size labels in my clothes, but they don't really mean anything.

about weight. well, here's how i feel about weight. ladies, feel free to chime in!

just about every woman lies about it. yep, they do. and i know that they do based on what men think is an "average" weight for women. i have a favourite writer, who often has a character from our shared childhoods - the fat lady down the road who wears a beehive and a muumuu. i remember these women well - had more than 1 as a babysitter. my writer, however, is apparently sure that 160lbs is HUGE, because in every book, miss obese, who likely really weighs at least 250lbs, is described as 160lbs! now, i know his wife, and i'm pretty sure she weighs at least that, and she's not the beehive/muumuu type. i often wonder how she feels about that description (but am afraid to ask!).

most grown women do not weigh 110-115lbs. i, myself, at 5'5" and cursed with naturally huge bosoms, look fantastic and proportional at 150lbs, but i prefer 140, which is a usa size 8 these days (so when those celebrities say they're a size 4, and they are, say, any of the kardashians, they are lying!). however, i know that american society views 150lbs with disgust number-wise. so my driver's license says 130!

i have a picture of a skirt. i'll try to get it up here. a skirt my g/f and i used to wear partying down the strip back in the 80s when that kind of thing was still fun. it was our "fat day" skirt. it's 12" wide, which doesn't quite fit my very slim 18yo DD, who is a usa size 0/00 (and *much* tinier than any of the kardashian girls). gaps a bit in the waist, but hard to get over her little boy hips. the size tag says: "Size 12." and this is why american women are so screwed up about our weight! or at least my generation. double digits was definitely "fat" back in the day, and still is, culturally, which is why if you want larger than a size 10, you have to go to the "woman's section" (euphemism for "fat lady section") and this size 12 is nothing like the size 12 i currently wear. it's not much bigger than an international postage stamp. and sadly, i remember back in the 70s when a 10 was considered perfect (even before the movie). it's a pity our culture keeps trying to minimize women by literally shrinking them.

i have to say, i love clothes shopping in nz. there is no standard sizing here, so you can be different size even with the same designer! and clothes shops here, even the boutiques, carry 6-18. you will not find a 4 without a hard search, and usually in the teen shops. and many shops carry from 10-22. it's very liberating, because you are no size! and my nz driver's license? has my name, my photo, and my class (car), and whether i need to be wearing lenses. but no weight!

so, that was a bit of a rant. sorry!

ladies, do you agree? disagree? men, what do you think about women's weight?
For the record, I was advocating O&H but I don't think that means you have to let your man know all your beauty secrets or pass gas or anything of that stuff in front of him to meet the O&H requirement! lol

On the weight thing, if it's just a perception thing, it's no big deal to not discuss it. What I meant - about shame and sharing, being freeing, etc... was that if it (your actual weight) is something that you are ashamed of or embarrassed by and it is a deep-seated issue, it might be a good thing to confide in your spouse and to "let them in" so to speak. I had something similar (long story - wasn't weight, was something else) and I felt SOOO much better when H and I discussed it. I saw that something that needlessly held so much power in my brain slip away.

Having said all that - yes...weight perception can be weird. No one would ever guess that my 20 year old, beautiful, cheerleader, size 4,5'6" daughter weighs as much as she does! They would guess 115 and it's closer to 135! BUT...she has very low body fat - is all lean muscle. So, while I don't think she cares that people know how much she weights - IF they can see her - she wouldn't want someone to just "read" how much she weighs without seeing her in person, because of how she would be perceived. SO: it's not a "shame" issue, it's just vanity. lol
Posted By: Letty Re: being able to read threads at SAA - hard? - 07/14/12 12:52 AM
not vanity - skewed perceptions of others, right? she's gorgeous and healthy, but if she was judged by that *number,* she'd be "overweight" in cultural eyes because they have been deceived by the media for so very long - they can't see the truth in their faces. and that is just totally screwed up.

and if you live in LA, like i did, you run into actors/models all the time. and you see that they don't look like their photos. and then you see them say they are 110lbs, or a size 00, and you can't jibe that with the real person. but you see them in photos and films much more often, and so are led to believe that celebrities really look like that when they don't.

and yes, _playboy_, with all your 5'7", 115lbs "models," i'm talking to you! and maxim, and HPV or whatever that one's called. you know, the "we're masquerading as a general readership male mag, but we're really one step off playboy!" (or training bra porn mags for teens, as i call them) men's rags and their massive photoshopping.

on a related note, an editor of a national mag my husband shoots for, who doesn't include girls, asked me a while ago what i thought of having a girl on the cover for the xmas issue (we were discussing target audience and mags that still have women in them, particularly in adverts). i was straight up: "ed, we have a gorgeous 16yo daughter. we all read your mag. she needs to know she is valuable for more than her appearance." he agreed. and we talked about how when you only see "girls" as decorative, not as racers themselves, it's a blow to all women. (no so subtle hint: ed, profile more women racers!)

dd was there too, as drag racing is a family event. i love for her to see the women racers and the control they have over their environment (the high HP cars). plus, we all wear "Letty's H Racing" t shirts (i had his race car embroidered on them), since we're his "pit crew" (more like cheerleaders, lol).
Posted By: Letty Re: healthy weight - 07/14/12 02:12 AM
and just wanted to add

Originally Posted By: sunnyd
No one would ever guess that my 20 year old, beautiful, cheerleader, size 4,5'6" daughter weighs as much as she does! They would guess 115 and it's closer to 135!


that's right smack in the middle of a healthy weight for her age and height according to the usda bmi chart! i don't think anyone ever looks at those.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: healthy weight - 07/14/12 03:27 PM
Yep - skewed perceptions over a #. And no, no one ever looks at those charts usually.

The media - whether movies or magazines - really does play a number on our minds about what is beautiful and what isn't - and what these people look like. Heck, I'd look unworldly gorgeous all the time too if I had someone following me around to correct the lighting, airbrush and photoshop my pics, and let me do retakes of those moments that come out looking funny! smile

Just the other morning on tv they were showing old ads for women. Were they trying to get these women to lose weight? NO...they were for women to gain weight! "Too Skinny??? Try..." Although, back then people ate smaller portions and cooked at home a lot more. They probably didn't do all the snacking we do nowadays either.

There are some strides made to show women accomplishing things in ads now, rather than just for eye candy - but I don't know that we'll ever see the day eye candy goes away.

As for how it relates to MB concepts, while you can't go around with your eyes closed all the time, it's important to to watch comparisons of your spouse to these unrealistic portrayals.

In fact, it goes both ways, but in a different sense. Some time ago I noticed something one Saturday. I watched too many chick flicks because I was sick and H was out with S18 and S16 a good bit of that time. One movie was fine, but by the 3rd romantic drama or comedy...I was a lot less satisfied with my marriage and my H! In my mind I had let negativity sink in:

"Why can't Mr. Sunny be more like _____ and do ______. He doesn't love me like I deserved to be loved!"

And of course, it went downhill from there. It was, "NO...of course he doesn't. Instead of doing _______ he went and had an A!"

The worst part is, I KNOW better than to compare my own life or marriage with a dang movie! I'm betting most men know better than to compare their wives to a movie star or supermodel. BUT... when you let this stuff into your head, it works its black magic whether you like it or not.

Point being: there's a balance for both sexes in our expectations and how the romantic and attractiveness needs are met in our marriages.
Posted By: Letty Re: healthy weight - 07/14/12 10:01 PM
Originally Posted By: sunnyd
In fact, it goes both ways, but in a different sense. Some time ago I noticed something one Saturday. I watched too many chick flicks because I was sick and H was out with S18 and S16 a good bit of that time. One movie was fine, but by the 3rd romantic drama or comedy...I was a lot less satisfied with my marriage and my H! In my mind I had let negativity sink in:

"Why can't Mr. Sunny be more like _____ and do ______. He doesn't love me like I deserved to be loved!"

And of course, it went downhill from there. It was, "NO...of course he doesn't. Instead of doing _______ he went and had an A!"

The worst part is, I KNOW better than to compare my own life or marriage with a dang movie! I'm betting most men know better than to compare their wives to a movie star or supermodel. BUT... when you let this stuff into your head, it works its black magic whether you like it or not.

Point being: there's a balance for both sexes in our expectations and how the romantic and attractiveness needs are met in our marriages.


yes yes yes! the contrast effect doesn't require use of porn or erotic fiction. even things we consider "everyday" stuff can develop that contrast, and it is so subliminal sometimes, even when you think you're being level headed about it, they next thing you know, you're saying exactly that: "He doesn't love me like I deserved to be loved!" i'm not a big romantic comedy person, but i have experienced what you're talking about sunny. i cried at the end of jerry maguire for that very reason! and that was how i felt: "he doesn't love me ENOUGH." what a ninny!

the "grand gestures" we see in films, books, and the internet are a rarity IRL. i only know one couple whose marriage was full of them, and maybe i'll tell their story here one day. it is a cautionary tale. to sum up: flash and bang /=/ substance. (and can you guess? it was an affairage.)

i think we talked before about the little things. for the first year or so after Hs a, i waited and waited for that grand gesture. and each time it didn't appear, i got madder and more frustrated. but somehow i learned to recognize that all the little things he was doing were so much more valuable than 1 big one. and now i'm actually grateful for those little things. the little building blocks create a M. one big brick won't do it!
Posted By: Hopeful_Hubby Re: healthy weight - 07/15/12 03:02 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
Originally Posted By: sunnyd
In fact, it goes both ways, but in a different sense. Some time ago I noticed something one Saturday. I watched too many chick flicks because I was sick and H was out with S18 and S16 a good bit of that time. One movie was fine, but by the 3rd romantic drama or comedy...I was a lot less satisfied with my marriage and my H! In my mind I had let negativity sink in:

"Why can't Mr. Sunny be more like _____ and do ______. He doesn't love me like I deserved to be loved!"

And of course, it went downhill from there. It was, "NO...of course he doesn't. Instead of doing _______ he went and had an A!"

The worst part is, I KNOW better than to compare my own life or marriage with a dang movie! I'm betting most men know better than to compare their wives to a movie star or supermodel. BUT... when you let this stuff into your head, it works its black magic whether you like it or not.

Point being: there's a balance for both sexes in our expectations and how the romantic and attractiveness needs are met in our marriages.


yes yes yes! the contrast effect doesn't require use of porn or erotic fiction. even things we consider "everyday" stuff can develop that contrast, and it is so subliminal sometimes, even when you think you're being level headed about it, they next thing you know, you're saying exactly that: "He doesn't love me like I deserved to be loved!" i'm not a big romantic comedy person, but i have experienced what you're talking about sunny. i cried at the end of jerry maguire for that very reason! and that was how i felt: "he doesn't love me ENOUGH." what a ninny!

the "grand gestures" we see in films, books, and the internet are a rarity IRL. i only know one couple whose marriage was full of them, and maybe i'll tell their story here one day. it is a cautionary tale. to sum up: flash and bang /=/ substance. (and can you guess? it was an affairage.)

i think we talked before about the little things. for the first year or so after Hs a, i waited and waited for that grand gesture. and each time it didn't appear, i got madder and more frustrated. but somehow i learned to recognize that all the little things he was doing were so much more valuable than 1 big one. and now i'm actually grateful for those little things. the little building blocks create a M. one big brick won't do it!


I appreciate this post a LOT right now. However, what if one of your BIG building blocks IS or at least SHOULD be the little things. Right now, my wife holding my hand during a prayer IS a big thing. Her actually wanting to give me a hug IS a big thing for me. Those SHOULD be the little building blocks, but I've been so deprived from them, that they're the BIG events right now. I would LOVE a grand gesture of I'm so sorry, thank you for not giving up on me, thank you for being a great father to our children, I'll make it up to you, but I know it isn't coming, thank you for not letting me make the biggest mistake of my life. I understand that'll most likely NEVER happen based on others experiences, which goes to show how psychological screwed up affairs make good and decent people.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: healthy weight - 07/15/12 03:08 AM
Dr Harley is clear in the book SUrviving an Affair that betrayed spouses usually don't receive that grand gesture.
I received a half ass apology but it turned out to be a false recovery that only lasted 2 weeks anyway.
Personally after reading SAA I felt that Sue was an ungrateful selfish woman.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: healthy weight - 07/15/12 03:09 AM
I wonder If Jon and Sue read these forums?
If so i don't mean to offend
Posted By: unwritten Re: healthy weight - 07/15/12 05:27 AM
So riddle me this. In regarding to the EN of PA, what if your spouse DOES subscribe to somewhat unrealistic expectations of weight, etc. and feels that for you to meet that need you must compete with the supermodels, actresses, etc.

I kindof feel that is the case for me. I am 5'10 and wear a size 6-8 and H would like to see me be 'petite' in structure, ie very slender and more in a size probably 4? IDK what exactly he wants but I think he does want me to lose a few. When, I think I am pretty dang good looking just the way I am.

I'm not super skinny, or perfectly tones in every way. But I'm not overweight. I am a 40 yr old mother of 3 and I am a woman, not a skinny girl or someone who starves themself to fit into an unrealistic size 4.

I don't even know my weight because I don't own a scale. Try it, its liberating.

But since I have been working hard to meet his EN's, I really feel torn between wanting to feel good about myself and my own body (which, I do), and yet wanting to please him, but not wanting to please him at the expense of living a life that is obsessed with being skinny and not eating for goodness sake! KWIM. What's the answer here.

Can't really tell him that he is being unrealistic and to get over it, because that would be like telling him his need for PA doesn't matter. Wouldn't it?
Posted By: Letty Re: healthy weight - 07/16/12 05:11 AM
unwritten, dr harley says that men aren't to place unrealistic societal expectations of beauty onto their spouses (that's an SD!). that women do bear children and age, just like *they* do! my H certainly isn't the viral 35yo he once was, just like i am not the 28yo he married. PA is about looking your best, being healthy (not a size whatever), and not trying to fit into false expectations. you should find that part of HNHN and highlight it for him! asking a 5'10" woman to be a size 4 is bullying, IMveryHO.

ps: i don't own a scale either. i don't really care what i weigh, as long as my clothes fit.

so, should you tell him to get real and get over it? well, yes, but certainly not in that manner! what you *can* do is show him that part of the book, and perhaps venture, gently, that expecting a 40yo mother of 3 who is damn fine to look like a 17yo supermodel is hurtful. then give him a picture of david beckham and tell him to conform! lol.

HH, i'm glad this open discussion has been helpful!

HDW, i'm sorry. i can't imagine the shoe being on the other foot and never, ever getting a heartfelt "i'm so sorry" for the pain and agony you've gone through. i guess recovery brings about a turn of events (if not of words) for the couple that allows the BH to be willing to continue the M.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: healthy weight - 07/17/12 03:35 PM
Just to add to Letty's comments, Unwritten, I think Dr. H once said in a radio program (or maybe it was an article) that he even closes/covers his eyes when nude scenes come on in movies to avoid unhealthy comparisons. Maybe you guys have read or seen that too.

Point being: perhaps Mr. Unwritten needs to stay away from movies and magazine women contrasts and maybe his expectations won't be so unrealistic.

In my case, I learned that I needed to stay away from ODing on chick stuff. It's really not my thing usually anyway, but sometimes I like it. I especially steer clear if I'm hormonal!

Know thyself...

lol
Posted By: Letty Re: healthy weight - 07/18/12 07:25 AM
well, you'd just better stay far away from that 50 shades book then. between the kinky s-e-x and the spectacular romantic gestures, you'll be packing your bags! rotflmao
Posted By: unwritten Re: healthy weight - 07/18/12 02:42 PM
I agree with this 'know thyself' thing. Mr Unwritten watches Deadliest Catch and reads hunting and fishing mags, so not really even sure where the comparison comes from, lol. I think its rather impossible to not be affected by the constant media campaigns though.

Regarding 50 Shades of Gray, since that has been a topic on these boards a few times. H downloaded it for me for Mother's Day, although I haven't read it yet, he just knew many of my friends were. The affect I have seen it have with my friends is they have all totally stepped up their SF activity in terms of stepping outside the box AND quantity, and therefore their H's LOVE the book. Don't tell my H that tho or he will probably delete it off my phone, he already has a hard time keeping up.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: healthy weight - 07/18/12 03:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
well, you'd just better stay far away from that 50 shades book then. between the kinky s-e-x and the spectacular romantic gestures, you'll be packing your bags! rotflmao


LOL, Letty!!!

I've heard it's pretty wild! I didn't know it was filled with romantic gestures though. No wonder women seem to be loving it - best of both worlds! shocked
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: healthy weight - 07/18/12 03:54 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
I agree with this 'know thyself' thing. Mr Unwritten watches Deadliest Catch and reads hunting and fishing mags, so not really even sure where the comparison comes from, lol. I think its rather impossible to not be affected by the constant media campaigns though.

Regarding 50 Shades of Gray, since that has been a topic on these boards a few times. H downloaded it for me for Mother's Day, although I haven't read it yet, he just knew many of my friends were. The affect I have seen it have with my friends is they have all totally stepped up their SF activity in terms of stepping outside the box AND quantity, and therefore their H's LOVE the book. Don't tell my H that tho or he will probably delete it off my phone, he already has a hard time keeping up.


You're right - it is pretty impossible to steer clear of media perceptions. We're inundated with it, all the time.

As for 50 Shades...I've heard that it's the best thing to come along for husbands since sliced bread! lol

H and I talked about it briefly the other day. He didn't say he wanted me to read it. Then again, he thought it was about a woman having SF with 50 different hunky men. LOL
Posted By: Letty Re: healthy weight - 07/19/12 04:19 AM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Originally Posted By: unwritten
I agree with this 'know thyself' thing. Mr Unwritten watches Deadliest Catch and reads hunting and fishing mags, so not really even sure where the comparison comes from, lol. I think its rather impossible to not be affected by the constant media campaigns though.

Regarding 50 Shades of Gray, since that has been a topic on these boards a few times. H downloaded it for me for Mother's Day, although I haven't read it yet, he just knew many of my friends were. The affect I have seen it have with my friends is they have all totally stepped up their SF activity in terms of stepping outside the box AND quantity, and therefore their H's LOVE the book. Don't tell my H that tho or he will probably delete it off my phone, he already has a hard time keeping up.


You're right - it is pretty impossible to steer clear of media perceptions. We're inundated with it, all the time.

As for 50 Shades...I've heard that it's the best thing to come along for husbands since sliced bread! lol

H and I talked about it briefly the other day. He didn't say he wanted me to read it. Then again, he thought it was about a woman having SF with 50 different hunky men. LOL


rofl! no, summed up: girl meets boy, boy is gazzillionarie who's into kinky stuff, they fall in love, get married, the end. it's like a harlequin, but with some kink thrown in. and she took 3 books to do it. i loved one of the reviews of book 2 on BN: "I was interested in seeing where she could possibly go with a second book. Turned out to be nowhere!"

the writing is incredibly poor (good grief, the dialogue!), there's no plot, and it's wholeheartedly ridiculous, but i imagine it has spiced up a sex life or two. frankly, i think the wrong gender is reading it laugh

did y'all see the lady who advertised her house for sale thanks to her cheating husband? it's here if you're interested. many nice comments on her blog.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: healthy weight - 07/19/12 01:31 PM
They do get married?? yay! I'm in the middle of book one. smile

PS I checked out the blog too. Sounds like she has a good head on her shoulders. We do need to remember that things could be worse..
Posted By: unwritten Re: healthy weight - 07/19/12 02:43 PM
That being said, I don't think the pain of infidelity should ever be discounted.

I have a friend who lost a baby through still birth, and she said people would often say things like 'well at least you didn't know the child' and the like. Pointing out the 'it could have been worse.' That is more damaging a statement than saying nothing sometimes, when someone is in a painful situation.

Of course it could be worse. But this is bad enough, for now...
Posted By: unwritten Re: healthy weight - 07/19/12 02:45 PM
FYI that same friend is friends with another woman who also lost a child through still birth. And now, her husband just left her for another woman.

My friend has told me that she claims the adultery was more painful than losing her child. I have always thought in the back of my head that cannot be possible when I have heard Dr Harley say it, being a mother and knowing how devastating it would be to lose a child (or rather, imagining). It is interesting to hear it from someone who has actually been through both.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: healthy weight - 07/19/12 03:32 PM
No, I didn't mean it would ok for others to say that to us (I would seethe at that!) but for us to be grateful for what we do have.

As a mother, I would rather this over losing any of my children. Hands down
Posted By: unwritten Re: healthy weight - 07/19/12 03:42 PM
Hands down. I agree.
Posted By: Letty Re: healthy weight - 07/20/12 05:28 AM
whoops, sorry, RQ, didn't mean to include a spoiler! the wedding, however, is not central to the books, lol. skip a page and you'll miss it. not that i think anyone is skipping pages. grin i read the dirty bits aloud to my H, hahahaha.

UW, i can't believe someone would say something so cruel to someone who has lost a baby (well, i believe they did, but it's breathtakingly cruel). my sister lost a baby about 12 years ago, on valentine's day, and still sobs over it today (on the "big day" reminder). she's not in a position to have any more and it just kills her. however, i don't think it would help to tell her that if my BIL had an affair she'd know what devastation really feels like. i hope that NEVER, EVER happens to her, even though she can be a real witch smile

i mean, i know it's hard to say things to people who are grieving, but geez louise! that's inserting BOTH feeet! having lived through adultery, i can't think of any worse pain, even if i had ended up single. that may have even been easier, because of the finality. recovery is a lengthy, painful road. a living child, though...nope. can't even think about how that would feel. i know what you meant, though, RQ. things are a lot worse for a lot of people around the world. but in our lives, this IS the worst thing. and hey, we're making it! yay for us!

i thought the lady selling the house had some moxie. good for her.

so, the new eating habit is going ok. i've cut sugar to the bone, and spend a lot more time at the market reading labels. scary things, those labels, when you realise how much crap is in stuff. i mean, i'm no idiot. i was athletic as a girl. i rode, ran, biked, did biathlons. i was even a vegetarian for many years until i met my carnivore H (it just got too hard dealing with the food). but ever since the a, i have just slid further and further down that slippery slope of food as a crutch. so i have no one to blame but myself.

i know the cravings will start to go in another week or so. i've really cut back on the smoking (from nearly 25/day to 4-6), but i'm only human and can't do it all in one go. (i picked up the smoking again in march, surprise, surprise). next week my goal is to get into the gym one day for the week. with parent-teacher conferences from 4-10 after a full day's teaching, and a venue meeting re the school ball after school, that's gonna be the very best i can do next week. i'll try 2 days the week after.

i'm worried that this new twist on my health has my H thinking, "aw sh1t, again? enough is enough." i know, i know, after telling someone else not to put words in their mouths/heads! he's been so good to me with the big health issues. when i had my hysterectomy at 32, he got up early, got me set up for the day, and when he came home he showered me and dried my hair and waited on me hand and foot. for weeks. when i had my knee replacement, he did the same, but added daily physio appointments w/me. i don't want it to be all about me! anyhow, to make *myself* feel better, i am making him a fabulous dinner with pork chops (something i hate. i'm having whole wheat pasta).

i hope y'all have a good weekend. we're supposed to have some nice (if cold) weather, so i'm going to sit outside while H is working tomorrow and finish the new john sandford.
Posted By: Letty the aging process - 07/20/12 11:05 PM
rant!

i hate aging! no one talks about it and there is no warning of what happens! in the last 5 years i've freaked out about things that are, apparently, normal. who knew?

i first noticed i was aging in my late 30s. i went to buy some nail polish, and a young lady came to help me. i asked her about a shade, and she held up her hand so i could see it on her nails and compare my skin tone. i put my hand next to hers and was flabbergasted. hers was nice and plump and smooth. mine was bony, freckled, and wrinkly! OMG!

now that i'm hitting 46 (geez, 50 is not that far away), i feel betrayed by my body. years of steriods for lupus has given my face a round shape, even at my thinnest. yuck. the area between my eyebrows is sliding down my face. i totally understand why celebrities have face lifts! my dimple, which everyone thought was terrific my whole life, has wrinkles. who knew dimples gave you wrinkles??

i get these round, almost perfect circles, red splothes on my body. they get dry, peel, scab over, and fade away. this takes weeks. yuck.

little hard bumps of skin appear all over. they get dry and peel. sometimes you can peel them right off, and they leave a crater. they always come back, and exfolioating does nothing.

moles also shift around. they puff up. they itch. they get a red ring. they get dry. they go back down. but apparently this is normal.

sf is more difficult. because of my early hysteroctomy, i have been on HRT for years. however, i find that sf, without a LOT of preparation, is, ahem, hard. once i get going it's ok though.

lately, i have found that even with a lot of preparation, i have a hard time reaching orgasm. i have read that this may be to diabetes. it's very frustrating to have a high level of excitement, but instead of finally hitting that last platau (sp?) where you know it's coming, it just stays in that gear. this is making sf for me a real problem, mentally. i plan on speaking with the lifestyle management nurse about it this week.

due to my lupus, i feel about 20 years older than my age. some days, up to 40 years older. i can't imagine what my 60s are going to be like, if i make it that far (please, let me make it that far!).

/rant

ladies, discussion?
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: the aging process - 07/21/12 04:09 AM
Letty, I hear you on the aging thing. In fact I just made a very similar comment to a friend the other day. Why didn't my mom ever tell me about this stuff?! Of course now I realize that she was probably learning and experiencing the same kinds of things when I was still young enough not to ever think about it. In my mind, aging was ages away! As a 55 year-old woman I can now relate.

Yes, our bodies do change even if we remain young at heart. I am surprised by things too, like whoever thought about dry wrinkled elbows or ears appearing to grow larger? Those cute dangling earrings now pull down sagging lobes so I have to be careful on how heavy they are. And what's happening to my lip line? There are a ton of products out there for us women to hide or disguise signs of aging and if you have the money you can keep up the fight a good long time if it's important to you. I've always appeared much younger than I am, but it's catching up to me now. **shrug**

Sex has never been an issue in our marriage (well except or the time he was wayward) but now it's slowing down. But what we've discovered as we both age that it is sweeter and more meaningful than when we were younger. We've had to find ways to work around some physical issues but we do and giggle like teenagers about some of our new adventures. We're both aging but so is our love. I've decided that I will grow old gracefully and with dignity-- not kicking and screaming about it. It just is what it is and there's not a lot we can do about it. This is one of the reasons it is so important to maintain that romantic love in our marriage. When the looks are gone, and our bodies betray us, there is still the connection of true, deep, abiding love. As long as we seek to make our spouses happy and meet each others needs, the love will remain in spite of the physical aspects.

I think our grown children would be surprised to learn how mom and dad still have that sexual connection. As we age, there are things we can do to enhance our lovemaking. I've found that I don't always "O" these days but when it happens, I still feel the earth move under my feet. smile but even if it doesn't, the experience is still sweet and enjoyable because we both strive to please the other. Dr. H has it right. I also had a partial hysterectomy when I was much younger but it never really effected my desire. Or maybe it brought it down to a level of normalcy and I just didn't know it. smile

My point I think is that it is pretty much guaranteed that our bodies and looks will age. Embrace it and find new ways to experience this new stage of life. Real beauty has always been internal. Neither my husband nor I may attract others anymore (not that we would know or care anyway) but we are still attracted to each other. I still see him as that 26 year old guy dancing disco on the dance floor, long dark hair flowing, when the reality is he's a 63 year old grandfather with long flowing silver hair (who still loves to dance) but whose health is declining, I'm sure he still sees me as that 19 year old hot bleached blond wild child when the reality is I'm a 55 year old mother of four adults and grandmother of six with silver "highlights", who has trouble with her knees, rheumatoid arthritis, and fibro myalgia. Sometimes I have to remind him of that and Peter Pan (my husband) says, eh, you're as young as you feel (at the moment). Riiiigghhtt. Lol!

For perspective, my husband had colon cancer about three years ago. We just went back to his oncologist today because we suspect the cancer is back and has metestasized (sp?) in other areas of his body. Knowing what may be in our future has brought us even closer. Cancer is not pretty but it in no way lessens my attraction for him. We intend to enjoy life even more.

Grow old gracefully and with dignity. I feel sorry for women and men who have fought so hard with plastic surgery and now look like distorted versions of themselves. That is sad to me. Along with age comes wisdom and the realization that the things we found so important in our youth just aren't anymore. At the end of the day what matters is your relationships with the people that count and more importantly, with God.

There's a different kind of beauty and dignity that is attainable even when our bodies age. And for those of us who find ourselves alone through no fault of our own, we can still be beautiful. My grandmother had seven children and her husband died when her children were very young. She never remarried or even dated as far as I know but she remained one of the most beautiful women I know until the day she died at age 96.

That woman you see when you look in the mirror is still a beautiful woman. You may be aging but that doesn't mean you've lost the battle. Expect changes and embrace new ways of doing things. Handle yourself with dignity and grace and your beauty will shine through no matter your age.

Sorry for the book, lol, but this is a topic that has been on my mind lately. I'm glad you brought it up.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: the aging process - 07/21/12 07:23 PM
I didn't mind getting older, not so much; I just hate the "becoming invisible" part. It's like people just don't see me anymore.

Some of this may be the American culture (possibly.) I noticed when living in other cultures that men don't seem to take age into account quite as much.

When we lived in Portugal, the men actually looked at me, while here in the US, I barely get a glance. Not sure why that is.

There's a noticeable difference in the movies made in the US Hollywood style and foreign films. I LOVE foreign films because the movies aren't quite so focused on only having the young and the beautiful play in romantic parts. Often, the females in foreign films are rather ordinary-looking. Here in the US, movies are often made with a 60-something year old male actor, like Harrison Ford paired with a 30-ish year old woman. Sheesh.

I still color my hair--every 3 weeks, as I just don't like the idea of the gray hair. I mean I'm about 75% gray, taking after my dad who grayed in his early 40's. I am still fit and energetic, but oh, what IS that thing I call my neck? It's kind of wrinkled; it's the neck of a 50-something year old woman. Yikes!

But what I love about this stage is the confidence that comes with the years of experience. It's having the freedom to not be a "people pleaser." It's those darling grandchildren who adore me wrinkles and all.

The years melt away, though, when H and I are together in bed. Somehow he acts as though the wrinkles and bad morning hair don't even exist. When we are together in that way, he doesn't see any of the aging.

Hurray for Marriage Builders! A romantic passionate marriage is what keeps me young at heart.
Posted By: Mrs_Recon6mo Re: the aging process - 07/21/12 08:21 PM
Originally Posted By: princessmeggy
Letty, I hear you on the aging thing. In fact I just made a very similar comment to a friend the other day. Why didn't my mom ever tell me about this stuff?! Of course now I realize that she was probably learning and experiencing the same kinds of things when I was still young enough not to ever think about it. In my mind, aging was ages away! As a 55 year-old woman I can now relate.

Yes, our bodies do change even if we remain young at heart. I am surprised by things too, like whoever thought about dry wrinkled elbows or ears appearing to grow larger? Those cute dangling earrings now pull down sagging lobes so I have to be careful on how heavy they are. And what's happening to my lip line? There are a ton of products out there for us women to hide or disguise signs of aging and if you have the money you can keep up the fight a good long time if it's important to you. I've always appeared much younger than I am, but it's catching up to me now. **shrug**

Sex has never been an issue in our marriage (well except or the time he was wayward) but now it's slowing down. But what we've discovered as we both age that it is sweeter and more meaningful than when we were younger. We've had to find ways to work around some physical issues but we do and giggle like teenagers about some of our new adventures. We're both aging but so is our love. I've decided that I will grow old gracefully and with dignity-- not kicking and screaming about it. It just is what it is and there's not a lot we can do about it. This is one of the reasons it is so important to maintain that romantic love in our marriage. When the looks are gone, and our bodies betray us, there is still the connection of true, deep, abiding love. As long as we seek to make our spouses happy and meet each others needs, the love will remain in spite of the physical aspects.

I think our grown children would be surprised to learn how mom and dad still have that sexual connection. As we age, there are things we can do to enhance our lovemaking. I've found that I don't always "O" these days but when it happens, I still feel the earth move under my feet. smile but even if it doesn't, the experience is still sweet and enjoyable because we both strive to please the other. Dr. H has it right. I also had a partial hysterectomy when I was much younger but it never really effected my desire. Or maybe it brought it down to a level of normalcy and I just didn't know it. smile

My point I think is that it is pretty much guaranteed that our bodies and looks will age. Embrace it and find new ways to experience this new stage of life. Real beauty has always been internal. Neither my husband nor I may attract others anymore (not that we would know or care anyway) but we are still attracted to each other. I still see him as that 26 year old guy dancing disco on the dance floor, long dark hair flowing, when the reality is he's a 63 year old grandfather with long flowing silver hair (who still loves to dance) but whose health is declining, I'm sure he still sees me as that 19 year old hot bleached blond wild child when the reality is I'm a 55 year old mother of four adults and grandmother of six with silver "highlights", who has trouble with her knees, rheumatoid arthritis, and fibro myalgia. Sometimes I have to remind him of that and Peter Pan (my husband) says, eh, you're as young as you feel (at the moment). Riiiigghhtt. Lol!

For perspective, my husband had colon cancer about three years ago. We just went back to his oncologist today because we suspect the cancer is back and has metestasized (sp?) in other areas of his body. Knowing what may be in our future has brought us even closer. Cancer is not pretty but it in no way lessens my attraction for him. We intend to enjoy life even more.

Grow old gracefully and with dignity. I feel sorry for women and men who have fought so hard with plastic surgery and now look like distorted versions of themselves. That is sad to me. Along with age comes wisdom and the realization that the things we found so important in our youth just aren't anymore. At the end of the day what matters is your relationships with the people that count and more importantly, with God.

There's a different kind of beauty and dignity that is attainable even when our bodies age. And for those of us who find ourselves alone through no fault of our own, we can still be beautiful. My grandmother had seven children and her husband died when her children were very young. She never remarried or even dated as far as I know but she remained one of the most beautiful women I know until the day she died at age 96.

That woman you see when you look in the mirror is still a beautiful woman. You may be aging but that doesn't mean you've lost the battle. Expect changes and embrace new ways of doing things. Handle yourself with dignity and grace and your beauty will shine through no matter your age.

Sorry for the book, lol, but this is a topic that has been on my mind lately. I'm glad you brought it up.


That is very beautiful, princessmeggy.

I'm sorry about your H's health hug
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: healthy weight - 07/21/12 08:25 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
No, I didn't mean it would ok for others to say that to us (I would seethe at that!) but for us to be grateful for what we do have.

As a mother, I would rather this over losing any of my children. Hands down


When people say that adultery is more painful than losing a child they are NOT saying they would rather lose a child than suffer adultery if given a choice. That is a ridiculous assumption that is painful to read.

We are only saying that on the scale of trauma, one is more painful than the other. I would suffer 100 affairs if it brought my dead son back to me.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: the aging process - 07/26/12 07:35 PM
I guess I'm a little late in responding to your rant about aging, but I sure can relate!!!

It's really started hitting me the last 6-9 months and I'm VERY frustrated. I talked to my gyn about some of it and she gave me a prescription - not for hormones - but for a "device," lol. NO: not a sex toy - but something that is supposed to help things function better. I've NEVER had a problem in that area until recently - very frustrating for someone that's HD. I haven't ordered it yet - it's $500. I've been wondering about bioidentical hormones lately and whether I should check them out.

And...I have been undergoing treatment lately for 3 herniated disks in my upper spine - not fun! I am now at the chiropractor's office every day for traction. I can't work out, can't do a lot of stuff around the house (or out of it) and it is EXTREMELY frustrating. I'll admit, it's getting me down. frown

You're right, Letty, no one prepared me for being 46!!! LOL
Posted By: unwritten Re: the aging process - 07/26/12 07:44 PM
lalalala /fingersinears. I don't want to hear about getting old, it isn't going to happen to me. Ha.

SunnyD I know your H is younger than you too, does that make you feel younger or does it make you feel older? I think 'older' for me, because I feel like the 'old wife' instead of the hot younger wife. If you are younger, no matter what age you are, you are always 'younger', right? I sometimes think I have a little complex about this. But I seem to have a little complex about lots of things these days...
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: the aging process - 07/26/12 09:02 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
lalalala /fingersinears. I don't want to hear about getting old, it isn't going to happen to me. Ha.

SunnyD I know your H is younger than you too, does that make you feel younger or does it make you feel older? I think 'older' for me, because I feel like the 'old wife' instead of the hot younger wife. If you are younger, no matter what age you are, you are always 'younger', right? I sometimes think I have a little complex about this. But I seem to have a little complex about lots of things these days...


You know, UW, the only time it has ever bothered me (H being 3 years younger) is during/because of the A. H's AP was a few years younger than him, which made me like 5-6 years older than her. Now, that's really not all that much - compared to someone having an A with a 20 year old - but it still bothered me.

Most of the time it doesn't bother me at all because I've always been the less serious of the two of us - so - I'm the "fun" one. LOL Does that make sense???

But..occasionally - like lately with the health issues - I hate than I am older, and worry about falling apart sooner than he does! LOL
Posted By: unwritten Re: the aging process - 07/26/12 10:19 PM
I am 6 yrs older than H. Both his OW's were his age, so 6 yrs younger than me also. I wasn't intimidated by that with regards to them though. Just in general, I guess. The fact that some of H's friends are married to women in their 20's, and I am 40... I am a beautiful 40, and am told all the time I do not look my age, but still, I am still older looking than a 20 something year old! Fortunately for me, H is very advanced in his career for his age and as such, many of his friends are my age or older with wives that are my age or older, so that is generally the benchmark, if there needed to be one. All in all though, I think if I had married someone my age or older I would ALWAYS feel beautiful and sexy and young, no matter what age I was. Vs now I sometimes feel beautiful and sexy and...mature, like the oldest one in the crowd ya know?

However, that all said. I do look young for my age. I def ACT young for my age. Not purposely just naturally. I am pretty active and the older I get the more that stands out as part of what keeps me youngish. When people who haven't known us from the beginning find out how old I am, or about the age difference, they are shocked. Many think I am same age or younger than H! So that is good!

A couple weeks ago we went out to eat with my entire family. I sat at the end of the table. The waitress didn't card my brother, SIL, sister, H, and then she got to me and carded me! Always feels good to get carded at our age ya?

He has had health problems and seems to be falling apart at the seams, I would say I am the healthier fitter of the two of us. Not that I would wish that on him, of course! And he has been getting a lot of grey hair (which I have, shhhh! underneath my...what color is it now...dark brown with a splash of red I guess). I think his grey hair is totally sexy!!!

IDK I was just wondering how you felt about that, in regards to this 'aging' conversation amongst us 40 somethings.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: the aging process - 07/27/12 04:38 AM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
I am 6 yrs older than H. Both his OW's were his age, so 6 yrs younger than me also. I wasn't intimidated by that with regards to them though. Just in general, I guess. The fact that some of H's friends are married to women in their 20's, and I am 40... I am a beautiful 40, and am told all the time I do not look my age, but still, I am still older looking than a 20 something year old! Fortunately for me, H is very advanced in his career for his age and as such, many of his friends are my age or older with wives that are my age or older, so that is generally the benchmark, if there needed to be one. All in all though, I think if I had married someone my age or older I would ALWAYS feel beautiful and sexy and young, no matter what age I was. Vs now I sometimes feel beautiful and sexy and...mature, like the oldest one in the crowd ya know?

However, that all said. I do look young for my age. I def ACT young for my age. Not purposely just naturally. I am pretty active and the older I get the more that stands out as part of what keeps me youngish. When people who haven't known us from the beginning find out how old I am, or about the age difference, they are shocked. Many think I am same age or younger than H! So that is good!

A couple weeks ago we went out to eat with my entire family. I sat at the end of the table. The waitress didn't card my brother, SIL, sister, H, and then she got to me and carded me! Always feels good to get carded at our age ya?

He has had health problems and seems to be falling apart at the seams, I would say I am the healthier fitter of the two of us. Not that I would wish that on him, of course! And he has been getting a lot of grey hair (which I have, shhhh! underneath my...what color is it now...dark brown with a splash of red I guess). I think his grey hair is totally sexy!!!

IDK I was just wondering how you felt about that, in regards to this 'aging' conversation amongst us 40 somethings.


Oh lord, lets not measure the age factor by grey hair because I started having to color my grey at 23, NO kidding!!! Premature grey runs in my family. My brother was 75% grey by 30. I haven't seen my natural hair color in YEARS, lol.

I guess mentally I have not worried too much about being a bit older than Mr. Sunny because of my own parents. My dad is 9 years older than my mother but you would never know it! My mom has seemed much older than him my whole life - in her actions and attitudes as well as physically. My dad is still very active where my mom is not - despite being so much younger. So, I've always taken actual age with a grain of salt.

Having said that, now that you mention it - I do feel younger and more attractive when I'm around people older than me vs younger than me. Hmmmm..... Although I guess it isn't too much of a factor because being in classes with younger people, they all like me better than the other "older" students. smile
Posted By: Letty Re: the aging process - 07/28/12 05:12 AM
thanks, everyone, for your comments on aging. it's a tough row to hoe sometimes, and it's nice to know i'm not alone! did i mention the falling-out eyelashes on the bottom eyelids? or the dark patch under my left eye? lol, at least clinique has a good "redness solutions" cream that is helping with the dark patch, and they also make a very good little mascara for bottom eyelashes that pulls them out from where you think there are none!

i think i stay "young" because of the kids (at school). staying "hip" is important in being able to connect with them. on a side note, i wore my hair up and covered with a knitted hat the other day, which i wore like a snood (cold, rainy & windy makes me frizz). i got several compliments from the boys!

PM, i'm so sorry to hear about your H. have you gotten the test results yet? i surely hope it is not C. you both are in my thoughts.

i haven't posted lately for a couple of reasons. 1) waaaay too busy at work. two more weeks and my extra-curricular activities are finished for the year - yahoo! that'll be a lifted burden, and i can have my lunch hours back again for preparation for exams for my senior students.

also (2), things are going very well in M-land. H and i are much closer, and so much more affectionate. i have noticed that the more UA time we get, the more it oozes into "regular" life, and the more loved up i feel, the less crappy i feel. when i'm not feeling all loved up, the littlest things can make me crazy, you know? he's doing good work with our daughter, and is investing heavily into our home. we are working the programme every day.

however, i've also been having a hard time reading the other forum lately, and sometimes think it's hindering my recovery (triggers), so i've been taking a bit of a breather and just hanging with my regular-posting threads.

the diabetes is going ok - i meet with the lifestyle nurse each fortnight, and they've ordered me a blood testing machine thingie so i can monitor my levels closely. i've radically changed my diet, and the nurse was very pleased to see how serious i am. i lost a kg in the first 10 days - here's hoping for more! i find that if i don't eat little meals all day i get dizzy, shaky, and messed up. while i miss my tootsie rolls and muffins, i've been dabbling with cooking with whole wheat flour and without sugar, and it hasn't been too bad. i have found, however, that the drug companies have an insidious presence in diabetic-related publications/websites, promoting recipes that aren't "good" and are aimed at keeping people on diabetic medication rather than improving their eating habits. :O( thank goodness i am a good cook, and can play around with my own recipes.

oh - the nurse also explained to me how diabetes can interfere with the blood flow "down there," which inhibits orgasm. i'm looking forward to seeing how well my new eating habits deal with that little sitch!

it's a gorgeous day here today. i hope you all are having a good weekend too.

ps: sunny, is your F new??? congratulations!
Posted By: Letty Re: the aging process - 07/28/12 07:32 AM
it is our anniversary this week, and H has just surprised me with a spa pool for our house! we have talked about having one for a very (very) long time. i am very excited. we often go to our local hot pools for a private spa, so it'll pay for itself quick smart.

tomorrow we are spending our yard work time clearing up the area where it will go. thank goodness it's not supposed to rain again until monday. i'm looking forward to being able to soak my aches and pains away! and i'm sure H is looking forward to some naked time, lol. laugh
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: the aging process - 07/28/12 08:38 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
and i'm sure H is looking forward to some naked time, lol. laugh

lashes
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: the aging process - 07/28/12 06:12 PM
Ahhh...Letty....so glad to hear you are doing well!!!! smile

I agree with you on the recipes and drug companies wanting to keep people on meds. I've realized lately that I need to focus on cooking more with good, healthy ingredients.

You know what? I'm thinking you could perhaps check into the device that was recommended by my doc, lol. It is supposed to work on just what you mentioned. I'll have to find you a link. lol

I think at times we all take a break here or there from the forum, and it's wise to do so when you feel it necessary as part of your own recovery. Of course, others DO benefit from hearing from those of us that are in recovery and worked the program to end their spouse's waywardness. I've gotten pretty good at knowing when I am in the right mindset to help and when I need to back off for a bit. I think you'll find that as well.

Happy Anniversary!!! The pool spa sounds awesome! smile

As for my "F" - it IS new on my signature. I've used it here or there in posting but I've refrained from using it until now on my siggie. I have kinda felt I wanted to wait til the 2 year mark. However, I feel very safe in my marriage now - and it IS better than ever - and I really do feel all the cruddy stuff is in the past and the F earned. smile
Posted By: Letty recovery/exposure - 07/28/12 09:22 PM
sunny, thanks so much for adding your start to recovery link to your thread. i have read it, and it was such a relief to read the same kind of experiences, to know we (BS) are the same and not alone! near the end you talked about recovery threads, and i was thinking...is there a thread in SAA devoted to exposure?

what i mean by that is: getting over the fear of doing it, and the results? so often new members who are hurting so bad are paralyzed with fear and will not expose, until the a is so entrenched that exposure doesn't have the same effect because the WS is becoming hardened.

a thread devoted to how we exposed and it's positive results for the BS would be helpful, do you think? you and rainy come immediately to mind, of course, but i am sure there are many others! even though my own exposure was small (no ILs and like, because i don't have any), it certainly was effective. exposure really is the best weapon in the a-fighting arsenal, and it saddens me that so many wait until their gunpowder supply is so low. but most importantly is the massive boost in confidence for the BS that exposure brings.

i'd just like to add that H is doing great with DD. he really went out of his way to make sure she had a good new car after her hit & run, and is communicating with her on a daily basis.

on the consequences front, he had a run-in with my sister this past week. she had a car problem, and being a stirrer, like he is, he put a smartie-pants comment on her fb page about it. her response was: "WS, i wouldn't be such an expletive to your wife's sister when you've been such an expletive to MY sister!" he was quite unhappy with her reply, but i told him: consequences, mister!

ok, i'm off to clean up the back yard where the new spa pool is going!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: recovery/exposure - 07/28/12 09:43 PM
We actually had rainysweet add her exposure experience to the exposure thread and many others have added to the end of their experience.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 07/29/12 09:57 PM
I can't remember if I ever posted in the exposure thread. I know my recovery post - touting exposure - was put on the thread for newly betrayeds though.

The problem with a thread devoted to a specific topis is that it needs to keep getting bumped to the top so new posters can see it when they need it.
Posted By: unwritten Re: recovery/exposure - 07/30/12 01:57 PM
Letty, I didn't know that about the eyelashes. Hrm.

Congratulations on your anniversary and your spa pool. And your naked time...

And congratulations SunnyD on your F's. MB is probably the only place people strive for an F.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 07/30/12 02:53 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
Letty, I didn't know that about the eyelashes. Hrm.

Congratulations on your anniversary and your spa pool. And your naked time...

And congratulations SunnyD on your F's. MB is probably the only place people strive for an F.


True - very true - about the F! lol

I've noticed my eyelashes aren't as great as they once were, but nothing significant thus far.

Dr. OZ had some shows last week about help with aging stuff. Maybe we all need to check out his site! smile
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 08/03/12 09:52 PM
time for an update i suppose! sunny, did you remember the device your doc mentioned?

anniversary dinner was fab. two days prior, H texted me to make a booking at the italian place. that warmed my heart, as he hates italian food. here's a funny story:

when we first moved here i was desperate for something "good" to eat. got H to go italian (the *only* italian restaurant in our town). when we got there, i asked the waiter if chef would make something not on the menu. i asked for gnocchi. H ordered steak, "well done."

chef came out and talked with me at length about food & wine. he personally served up the gnocchi, and it was amazing. a little while later, he came out with Hs steak.

"i cannota cooka the steak any more!" ::slams dish on table & walks away::

i about psml!

anyhow, H always orders the fish now. this time i had gnocchi with blue-veined gorgonzola & walnuts, a side salad, and H and i split some rosemary & garlic pizza bread. i also had 1 glass of chianti. then i got really bad and ordered the tiramisu for dessert (H had the chocolate torte). very, very naughty! and i'm still paying for it, but dayum, i enjoyed every single bite!

back to whole wheat everything now, and no cheese, cream, etc. i've even gone to buying my own milk for the staffroom (morning tea time), because we are often out of slim and there's only whole-fat (indie will know what i mean. most people here prefer "real" milk in their tea/coffee - so it's odd we're always out of slim!).

other than that, food is going well. it wasn't really all that hard to get back to proper healthy eating, and the cravings for sweets have really dropped off. if they come up, i just stuff myself with fruit. it's winter, so i'm limited to apples, oranges, mandarins, and pears. did you know bananas are considered a starch? at least, the way i like them: not quite ripe. i hate nanas with spots. i'm losing about 1lb/week.

i came across a baking sugar substitute called...erm...splenda? that may not be right. it says to measure the same as sugar, so if you want to cook something with 1/2c sugar, you use 1/2c of it. HOWEVER, i am very confused. the front of the box (160g) says "the same amount of sweetness as 1kg sugar!" well, if a mere 160g = 1kg of sweetness, that sounds WAYYYY to sweet for me! and 160g =/= 1c sugar! and $10.95 for 160g, i don't think i'll try that. if anyone else knows about this thing, i'd like to hear your experiences with it. i was thinking about making some toll house cookies with it, with carob chips. but i guess that's a former pleasure!

spa pool shows up tuesday, so hopefully we can be in it by weds!

well, H has just gotten home from work, so i'd better sign off and get ready to go into town. i hope you all have a good weekend.

ps: as a side note that probably should have been the headline, this is the first anniversary i've looked forward to in 5 years! yay!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 08/03/12 11:11 PM
SOOOO glad you had a great anniversary!!!

I don't have my paperwork from the doc's office handy so I'll have to find it - on the device. After googling, this MAY be it:
http://www.eros-therapy.com/index.cfm?optionid=530
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 08/03/12 11:12 PM
Oh - and I've never baked with Splenda but I know it's not cheap. I switched to Truvia which is supposed to be more natural. I like the taste better.

Good job on the food changes! I'm trying to be good too.
smile
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 08/04/12 08:03 AM
bwhahahahaha! i was in a funny mood after reading the funny thread titles thread, and when i clicked on your link, my first thought was: i may not need H after all... rotflmao

i will, erm, look into it!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 08/04/12 07:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
bwhahahahaha! i was in a funny mood after reading the funny thread titles thread, and when i clicked on your link, my first thought was: i may not need H after all... rotflmao

i will, erm, look into it!



LOL, Letty!!!

Remember - it's not a "toy" - it's a device to help women who are menopausal or otherwise having issues! crazy

You have to have a prescription for it. I haven't bothered yet as I haven't felt I needed it quite yet. But - the doc did say it's been proven to help a lot of women. With age or health problems women sometimes experience a loss in intensity or trouble getting there - or even libido issues - and it's supposed to help.
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 08/04/12 08:32 PM
i am going to take it to my nurse practitioner appt this week. we'll see what she has to say - and whether it's available here (fingers crossed).
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: recovery/exposure - 08/04/12 09:18 PM
I've been having some trouble in this area as well. Reading up on it and wondering if it's possibly due to low testosterone. I used to have sexual dreams frequently. They have gone. There was certain feeling of rushing tingling sensation I used to have when H touched me a certain way or while watching a sexually suggestive movie. All gone. The Big O's are less frequent, and I get instead what I call "foamers." Sigh. I am not willing to just give it up to menopause either. Other than those things, menopause has not been a difficulty at all.

I read an article just this weekend in magazine "Men's Health" about how a man can boost his testosterone levels naturally. I wonder if a woman can achieve roughly the same results. It involves doing some more weight-lifting, over cardio and some other things. But I wonder....is low T levels the culprit here?

To that end, this week I made an appointment with a female doctor who will hopefully not blow this off. A great and satisfying sex life is really important to both of us.

I'm not taking this lying down. laugh
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 08/04/12 10:13 PM
Originally Posted By: LongWayFromHome


I'm not taking this lying down. laugh


Uhhhh.....

Nevermind. I'll keep my thoughts to myself on that one!
LOLOLOL


Longway...you should ask your doc about this device as well. I don't think this is the exact one my doc recommended because I remember a lot of testimonials and stuff on the site...I really need to find my paperwork! But, as I said, I think the one I linked is similar, at least in principle.

We boxed up a bunch of stuff and I'm thinking my paperwork is out in the garage somewhere.
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 08/05/12 12:42 AM
lol, LWFH, sunny had the same reaction as me, but got here first!

i am frustrated because this is rather sudden, and coincides with H moving back in (yes, it's been that long). i don't know if it's my head, or my hoohoo. (side note: do you guys have the new tv advert (for feminine product] where the girl says "vagina?" my goodness, you'd have think she said something else the way people have reacted!) and, oddly enough, it all works fine with other, erm, stimulation (versus straight intercourse).

so...despite everything sounding good in recovery, i am still frustrating myself sometimes. like yesterday. we had a really nice day. some shopping, a snack out (i brought my own bran muffin and had some fruit & tea; H had cake), etc. but something inside me, every few weeks or so, just feels argghhhh! i don't know why! it's like i *feel* that he's not meeting my needs (though when i review each day i *know* he is), and i get frustrated, which leads to somewhat angry.

i am afraid all this good stuff will fall away as time goes by (sunny, i see you had the same worry). why am i doing this? am i self-sabotaging? there are some times where i feel that H could certainly still be having a SSL, even though i have confirmation that he isn't (computer/phone). but i'm not foolish enough to think he "doesn't have time." sure, we spend all weekend together, and all evenings from around 4pm onwards. but...he *could* have a secret phone. he *could* not have work on saturday mornings. he *could* be finished at 3, but not come home until 4. even though i know he *is* actually working, and doing what he says he's doing (verified by customer calls/texts & billing).

is that just leftover crap feeling from all the lies? will it go away? will my va-va-va-voom sex life come back? is it just early days and i will get past it as time goes by? i mostly try to keep these feelings to myself, so i don't end up AOing for no reason. shyte, sometimes i peeve myself off.

anyhow, i thought i'd post those thoughts a) for some feedback and b) so others know it's not all smooth sailing - there is no magic pill; it's hard work all the way!

LWFH, i look forward to hearing the results of your doctor's appt!
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: recovery/exposure - 08/05/12 03:16 AM
I wonder how much of the trouble can be attributed to the thought life.

One tough thing for me is that many times when we make love, I have to actively push bad thoughts out of my head. Images. Even though we're getting lots of UA time and all is going pretty well, those thoughts are still a bit intrusive and distracting. Not as bad as in the first six or so months but still a niggling annoyance.

For me, any distraction is a bad thing and takes my mind off the "task" at hand.

You're just a few months into recovery. When we were a few months into recovery, we were very much into HB. But there were many many times, images would barge into my mind and I found it very difficult to proceed.

If we had never had the adultery in our marriage, then I would just be frustrated with what's going on in my body; but with the adultery, it means there's another point of comparison. At least in my own mind. During the first, oh, I don't know, say 6 months to a year following D-Day, if I couldn't get to O, there were times I cried, saying that I felt inadequate. Of course, I meant inadequate compared to what I perceive to be the A fireworks and "super novas" (OW's words in the steamy email I found puke )

That I couldn't always get to those fireworks was so disappointing to me. My FWH insists he never thinks of OW and that what he did was disgusting.

So sometimes I wonder if the thoughts themselves often serve as a troubling distraction. And it doesn't have to be just images. It's wondering, like you, if this is really going to last? Are things going to fall away to what they used to be? And so on.

And, frankly, I just don't look at FWH in the same way. All that I used to believe about us has been destroyed. It's like a brand new marriage in many ways. And something that's brand new is a little hard to have faith in at first.

And maybe all those distracting thoughts are indeed wreaking their bit of havoc in the brain, which leads some trouble in the "hoohoo."

But it could be something organic as well; that would be much easier than trying to manage those troubling distracting thoughts that creep in at just the wrong time...
Posted By: itsmeagain Re: recovery/exposure - 08/06/12 11:09 AM
I am having similar problems. Pre A I thought it was all due to menopause/low libido. (I am 65.) Then had massive hysterical bonding which taught me otherwise--it was the bad relationship. Now, almost 2 yrs post-D-Day, although relationship problems are solved and we are following MB, I'm having libido difficulty again. I also have distracting thoughts/images problem, but intermittent, getting better with time.
Have any of you read the book that Dr H recommends on MB website,
Women's Orgasm: A Guide to Sexual Satisfaction by Georgia and Benjamin Graber. I am thinking of ordering it.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: recovery/exposure - 08/06/12 12:16 PM
I have the book Women's Orgasm. Although it was written in 1970, it's still helpful and interesting. It's written mostly to the woman who has never had an orgasm, so there are exercises to teach one how to achieve that. But there is much helpful reading on women who already know how to O but want reminders and more info. I found the info on Kegel exercises particularly informative. Keeping Kegel muscle strong is imperative to having a good orgasm, because that's where it occurs.

After reading the article I found in a Men's Health magazine last week, I've been googling "women testosterone weight lifting" and finding some very interesting info on how resistance levels can naturally boost testosterone levels in both men and women.

It's a complicated physiological process but, from my bit of reading so far, it looks as though the process of rebuilding micro tears in the muscle fibers produces testosterone. Testosterone is the hormone responsible for much of our libido and sexual satisfaction.

I've noticed that, at least in myself, since H & I have finally headed back to the gym and work out together lifting weights, it didn't take but a few days to start to feel the great effects on my libido and the ease of orgasm.

On my H, this theory certainly seems to apply. While he was overweight, he had a much lower sex drive. He has been lifting weights and doing other resistance training since last winter and his libido is like that of a young man. It's rather remarkable. I didn't pay much close attention to how it affected me, but looking back, I can recall that the times I was having more trouble was when I was not doing any resistance training.

We've been living in a hotel waiting for our stuff to arrive from overseas so we can move in. I went into a kind of blue funk for a while (moving does that to me) and was quite sedentary. The heat here knocks me over. Only last week we started going back to the gym. Well, twice this weekend, we had a great time together in the SF department. No troubles on either end.

Cardio is reported to actually decrease testosterone, at least if done excessively. The articles suggested a short cardio session with more weight/resistance training.

I'll do some more research and see if there seems to be a correlation for us between the training and the SF. I'd much rather achieve a great sex life without drugs of any sort. I'm going through menopause, not having any of the usual symptoms, but I'm usually pretty active. I wonder if that has been helping or if it's just a coincidence. In all my previous activities, though, resistance training has never been my activity of choice. It was always running and hiking.
Posted By: itsmeagain Re: recovery/exposure - 08/06/12 03:40 PM
Thanks for sharing that ... we were on a fitness kick a year ago, as for 2 months we were living somewhere it was convenient (Pilates, universal gym workout, swimming). Didn't see the correlation at the time as we were also in hysterical bonding phase, but it certainly may have added to it.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 08/06/12 06:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
lol, LWFH, sunny had the same reaction as me, but got here first!

i am frustrated because this is rather sudden, and coincides with H moving back in (yes, it's been that long). i don't know if it's my head, or my hoohoo. (side note: do you guys have the new tv advert (for feminine product] where the girl says "vagina?" my goodness, you'd have think she said something else the way people have reacted!) and, oddly enough, it all works fine with other, erm, stimulation (versus straight intercourse).

so...despite everything sounding good in recovery, i am still frustrating myself sometimes. like yesterday. we had a really nice day. some shopping, a snack out (i brought my own bran muffin and had some fruit & tea; H had cake), etc. but something inside me, every few weeks or so, just feels argghhhh! i don't know why! it's like i *feel* that he's not meeting my needs (though when i review each day i *know* he is), and i get frustrated, which leads to somewhat angry.

i am afraid all this good stuff will fall away as time goes by (sunny, i see you had the same worry). why am i doing this? am i self-sabotaging? there are some times where i feel that H could certainly still be having a SSL, even though i have confirmation that he isn't (computer/phone). but i'm not foolish enough to think he "doesn't have time." sure, we spend all weekend together, and all evenings from around 4pm onwards. but...he *could* have a secret phone. he *could* not have work on saturday mornings. he *could* be finished at 3, but not come home until 4. even though i know he *is* actually working, and doing what he says he's doing (verified by customer calls/texts & billing).

is that just leftover crap feeling from all the lies? will it go away? will my va-va-va-voom sex life come back? is it just early days and i will get past it as time goes by? i mostly try to keep these feelings to myself, so i don't end up AOing for no reason. shyte, sometimes i peeve myself off.

anyhow, i thought i'd post those thoughts a) for some feedback and b) so others know it's not all smooth sailing - there is no magic pill; it's hard work all the way!

LWFH, i look forward to hearing the results of your doctor's appt!


Haven't seen that commercial. I've never really paid attention to whether they care about that particular word here in the states.

As for your ups and downs and frustrations - and concerns - YES - I've experienced them all!

I know it gets redundant to hear "its normal - just wait it out as long as you are working the program," but it IS true.
I think that hearing (well, reading) that it is a normal part of recovery is reassuring even if it doesn't solve the problem.

I've had those days you describe of feeling like H wasn't meeting my needs, even though on paper he was. I still do at times, in fact! I think it's good to dissect those feelings and get to the root of it. Sometimes, a change in perception is all that is needed. Sometimes, I find that I'm mad at myself for something and I'm inadvertently projecting my frustration onto H. Sometimes, I realize it's the time of the month, lol. Other times, I realize there IS something I need from H at the time, but haven't communicated it to him properly. And then, relatively few times (these days) I will find that it's still hurt over the A that has reared it's ugly head and I just have to find a way to cope.

One change in perception example is on my thread: I was feeling blue that H had to work on a particular weekend. (He has to work weekends occasionally, but very rarely.) I was feeling that my needs were not getting met or going to get met those couple of days. NeverGuessed posted to me and redirected my thoughts to what H had to go through: it wasn't like he WANTED to be away that weekend or that he was off on some fun adventure without me. He was working to provide for the family - which IS meeting a need. And - it wasn't like he was putting his job first, being a workaholic. He advised me, instead, to put myself in H's shoes and see if there wasn't some way in which I could meet HIS needs. When I did, I had an IMMEDIATE shift in my feelings! I was being self-centered until I had that perception shift.

That's the thing about feelings - they really are fleeting - can change on a dime. (Especially if we choose to change them through actions.) It's why we shouldn't govern our lives by them.

An example of projection: I was feeling H wasn't meeting my need for admiration one day. When I analyzed it, I was actually upset with myself: I hadn't put my best foot forward for a few days and I wanted him to admire me anyway. It doesn't work that way. It wasn't like he was a jerk, or wasn't meeting other needs, but why on earth should he "admire" me in an area where we both knew I was skating? If a child procrastinates on a school project, does the bare minimum, and gets a C+ - do you give the kid a pat on the back? He or she may get upset with you for your indifferent reaction, but inwardly he/she has to know where the fault lies.

Having said all that - you must also evaluate whether it's a case of changing needs. Through the recovery process you and Mr. Letty may need to redo the needs questionnaires. I know we had to - and will be doing so again, I'm sure.

Now: as for the feelings of all the good stuff fading...it's something the two of you must guard against. As time goes on in recovery, the motivation for working so hard on your marriage can slack off. It can be natural in the sense that you start feeling more secure. Just keep the goal in mind: the ONLY way to get over the A is to have an EXCEPTIONAL marriage. That, along with proper boundaries, is what keeps you safe.

You can't let fear rule your life. Worrying all the time as to whether or not your H is "up to something" is not what you want - it would drive you insane. BUT... those safeguards MUST be in place; both of your lives must be transparent. It can be difficult to decide when to stop "checking up," for instance. It has always helped me to do so when I triggered. I have found that those fears taper off with time.

I have also found that sometimes my concerns are justified and sometimes, not. In a few areas I have been concerned that we've gone back to the way things were pre-A. However, when I evaluated those things, they fit the MB bill - and we were actually practicing GOOD marital habits! Where those concerns have been justified are when I realize we are slipping - say in UA time or in putting our marriage above the kids. Being vigilant allowed for us to right the ship very quickly.

As for your concerns about the SF and whether or not that vavoom will come back... well... it could be circumstantial or it could be physical. I'm fighting the same thing - and in my case, I'm sure it's hormonal/physical change. SUCH a drag!!! DON'T withhold your feelings from your H - that you want more and you are concerned about it. But of course - do not bring the A into the discussion. It's tricky, but it can be done with good conversation tools. You focus on what you need in this area and how to achieve it - using "I" statements and not "look what you did to me" kind of stuff.

The bad part of this is dealing with marital/recovery issues while dealing with physical/emotional effects of peri-menopause (or outright menopause). It's a real doozy!!!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 08/06/12 06:43 PM
Originally Posted By: LongWayFromHome
I wonder how much of the trouble can be attributed to the thought life.

One tough thing for me is that many times when we make love, I have to actively push bad thoughts out of my head. Images. Even though we're getting lots of UA time and all is going pretty well, those thoughts are still a bit intrusive and distracting. Not as bad as in the first six or so months but still a niggling annoyance.

For me, any distraction is a bad thing and takes my mind off the "task" at hand.

You're just a few months into recovery. When we were a few months into recovery, we were very much into HB. But there were many many times, images would barge into my mind and I found it very difficult to proceed.

If we had never had the adultery in our marriage, then I would just be frustrated with what's going on in my body; but with the adultery, it means there's another point of comparison. At least in my own mind. During the first, oh, I don't know, say 6 months to a year following D-Day, if I couldn't get to O, there were times I cried, saying that I felt inadequate. Of course, I meant inadequate compared to what I perceive to be the A fireworks and "super novas" (OW's words in the steamy email I found puke )

That I couldn't always get to those fireworks was so disappointing to me. My FWH insists he never thinks of OW and that what he did was disgusting.

So sometimes I wonder if the thoughts themselves often serve as a troubling distraction. And it doesn't have to be just images. It's wondering, like you, if this is really going to last? Are things going to fall away to what they used to be? And so on.

And, frankly, I just don't look at FWH in the same way. All that I used to believe about us has been destroyed. It's like a brand new marriage in many ways. And something that's brand new is a little hard to have faith in at first.

And maybe all those distracting thoughts are indeed wreaking their bit of havoc in the brain, which leads some trouble in the "hoohoo."

But it could be something organic as well; that would be much easier than trying to manage those troubling distracting thoughts that creep in at just the wrong time...


I can SOOOOO relate to this post!!!!

Seems like there a few of us dealing with this area. It can be a real downer so it helps to have support here. I think we all need to keep in mind that our H's should be our partners in finding solutions. We need to be O&H so they can help us through this. That's sometimes difficult because we don't want to make them feel bad or add stress to the situation. We want to ensure that we aren't making them feel inadequate in such a sensitive area...but we gotta get our needs met too.
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 08/08/12 04:27 AM
hi ladies. it's a busy week, with the ball and speech exams both on saturday, and today i've arrived home sick as a dog! i'm going to take tomorrow off and see if i can get enough rest to get through friday and saturday. fingers crossed! i knew it was coming (stress-related always flares my lupus), but had hoped it would hold off until next week. sigh.

getting back to the gym seems like my best bet. some weight work is also good for diabetes, it turns out. if i can manage it better (and will be able to with my new sticker machine), hopefully i'll be able to free up the blood flow in all those small capillaries down there. diabetes does make the blood very thick and goopy, and inhibits the blood flow in all those little guys, making the big O very hard to reach for women with diabetes (whine, sigh!).

men and the squeamish, TMI coming up, so you may want to take a breather.
================================================================
poor H really gave it the old college try over the weekend. we had a quickie session on the saturday, that i was excited about but wasn't expecting anything out of, if you know what i mean. then on sunday, we had a lengthy session and tried all kinds of things! poor H probably lost about 5lbs in sweat, lol. but sadly, the only way i could was with, erm, man's friend, as we call it. soooo disappointing for me, and i bet for him too. but he said something that really lifted my spirits: "you've had this problem before, and it all came right. i'm sure we'll get it worked out this time as well." hooray for H!
================================================================

ok, all, TMI over!

we had a ball's up with the delivery of the spa pool this week (movers only sent ONE GUY to pick it up! after telling us they didn't need a crane, just to have it on the ground. morons), so H took today off, hired a crane, and toted it home (6 hour round trip). by the time i got home, it was installed and half full! lots of opportunity for admiration. he did such a good job, and it's a marvelous pool! he grinned like a little boy when i told him how smart & wonderful he is. he's not a smiler, so that was lovely to see!

LWFH, have you had the dr appt yet?
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 08/08/12 05:35 PM
Hope you get to feeling better, Letty!

I've had times like you described (of your weekend "tries") and that's no fun at all! It's been rare for me, thankfully. It's so frustrating, esp. when you're a person that's used to no having this issue at all.) I really think you would benefit from that device since it works specifically to increase blood flow, right to that area.

One thing I've gotten into lately is adding flax seed meal to my diet. My brother is a health nut and he talked to me about it and then I did some research. It is great properties: omega 3's, antioxidants, and all kinds of good stuff I can't think of right now. It even aids in healthy cell growth. The research I read said it helps people with diabetes as well as improves heart function. It's so easy to just throw it on my cereal in the mornings. The recommended dose is about 2 tablespoons a day. You have to do it ground though, because the whole seeds just go right through. You can also do flax seed oil, but that doesn't have all the benefits of ground flax seed; it has extra Omega 3 though, I believe.

Good job on the admiration over the pool! smile
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 08/09/12 12:36 AM
ground flax, ok, i can get that. does it have a flavour? can i put it on other things?

my mother also recommended agave. i had not heard of this, but one of my students works at the health food shop and says they have it, so if i insist on making carob toll house cookies i can use that, lol. however, after a month now of healthy eating, i find i have no desire, really, for cookies anymore. (yay!) however, i'd like to make them for H, and the better-than-sugar thing will be good for him too. i have done some reading now on agave, and it is supposedly safe for diabetics.

today is the first time in 6 months that i have put on some clothes and not looked "fat" to myself in the mirror. hopefully last year's ball gown will still fit on saturday! however, i do not feel good enough today to go to my hair appointment and i stayed home from work to try and conserve my energy. i'm hoping this will go quickly, and feel a tiny bit better today than yesterday. my head & neck hurt so much last night, like they were in a vise, and whenever i moved, it tightened. yuck.

ok, i'd better get ready to go see the nurse (ie: not in my pajamas).
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 08/09/12 03:32 PM
What - you don't go to your doc appointments in your pajamas????
LOL

I've heard of agave too but haven't tried it. You'll have to let me know how it goes.

The ground flax doesn't have much of a taste - maybe a slight nutty flavor but it certainly isn't unpleasant at all. It does have a texture to it and that can be off-putting to some people, but if you put it on the right thing (cereal or oatmeal, for instance) you can't even tell. I don't mind it in yogurt, but my son does.

Sure hope you get to feeling better!
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 08/10/12 06:43 AM
thanks. turned out to be a terrible allergic reaction to the massive pollen dump we had a few days ago. you can actually *see* pollen here. everything outside was coated with a layer of yellow dust. i actually thought it was sulfur from the volcano that blew its top the day before (since we could smell it), but no, pine pollen everywhere. feeling much better now thanks to the rain (and sudafed)!

and good news! in the last 4 weeks i have lost just over 5 kilos. that's just over 11 pounds, for you imperial folks. i'm so stoked! and that's by only changing my diet to healthier products (no exercise as yet - after the ball and exams!). the nurse gave me a big hug! i'm just a little bit away from a 20% weight loss that will cut my risk factors in half.

had a good soak in the spa last night, and looking forward to another tonight. H is in a snit though. i'm desperate for a substitute photographer for the ball, since the one we've booked hasn't responded to any email/phonecalls/texts in the last week! so i asked if his friend would be interested in doing it (pro photog), and he not very helpful at all in his reply to me! he did, however, contact his friend. then he called him right when i was in the middle of preparing dinner and had my hands covered with food as i was preparing what was going in the oven, and he got all crotchety because i didn't want to talk w/him right then! geez. so much for go to the man when you want something solved, not sympathized with!

hopefully all will go well tomorrow. and if it doesn't, i have to say i'm beyond caring at this point!
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 08/11/12 04:13 AM
so, after all that whining in my last post, last night went very well. well, at least until the spa cover fell over and bonked me on the head, grinding Hs and my noses together! my snozz and head still hurt! lol.

spent all morning decorating for the ball tonight, and am sitting here now with my hair in a fancy updo, complete with glitter spray!

so...i tried something. about two months ago, i said to H: i just want to tell you, this one time, that the ball is on august 11th. you know how i like you to look, so i can show you off. i'm not going to mention another word about it. and i haven't.

what did i get today? a man freshly shaven, with a proper haircut, and his tux ready to go! so, this no-nagging thing DOES work! lmao!

looking forward to a wonderful, if ear-shattering, evening tonight.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: recovery/exposure - 08/11/12 04:25 AM
Have fun at the ball, friend.

Way to go Mr. Letty.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 08/11/12 06:08 PM
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
Have fun at the ball, friend.

Way to go Mr. Letty.


I second that!!!

And I hope the noggin's not too sore and that your allegeries subsided. HATE allergies.

Glad things are going well. I'm sure you were the belle of the ball! smile
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 08/12/12 07:09 AM
omgosh, the ball was great! despite all the mishaps (photographer didn't show up {pulled another out of a hat}, entertainment co brought the bucking bull rather than the pink pig, etc). the kids all had a great time, and the cotton candy maker was a hit! *everyone* rode the bull, even the girls! and the headmaster was so impressed with my work he's decided to have the ball at this venue (rather than our hall) from now on :O) much easier for the organiser. the decorations were fabulous, the band was great, and the specially imported-from-auckland DJ went over well with the boys. the best part was seeing them out the door - the number of boys who thanked me for a good night.

H looked *very* sexy. he wasn't keen on wearing a tux & tie, so i russell-crowed him with a round-necked black shirt under the jacket. with his neat hair and shaved face, he looked delicious. he said i scrubbed up pretty good too wink. and my ball gown fit just fine (although perhaps a little too much boob on display, despite my wrap. you just can't hide those suckers {haha i made a pun!}).

today has been a pajama day. my allergies have settled into my chest and i coughed all night, so it looks like a double-dip in the spa today (for the steam, uh huh). and i've lined up another teacher to take my 7am scholarship class tomorrow morning for a little extra sleep.

i was very good - ate two tiny lamb burgers (bite size; only half the bun) and only had a bite of the cotton candy.

i feel so relieved - now that my public speakers have done their exams, and the ball is finished, i finally get time back in my day to do actual work! the second half of the year has arrived so quickly, and spring is in the air - hooray!

ps: i was going to wear some false eyelashes last night, and found my eyelash glue had all dried up in the tube! bummer!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 08/12/12 07:47 PM
The ball sounds absolutely fabulous!!! I'm sure your H appreciated your gown - ESPECIALLY the "spillage," lol.

I've thought about trying false eyelashes since mine seem to be thinning lately with the whole over 40 thing. frown I'm used to putting them on others, but I've never put them on myself! When my daughter was in competitive cheer they'd sometimes wear them and I put them on the girls.
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 08/20/12 04:51 AM
today was our mid-term break (yes, 1 day), and i'm finally feeling recovered from the ball, after sleeping till 10am, lol. got my nails done and went to the osteopath for my back. my speech students did very well in their exams also - very proud of them, especially the four new ones!

H and i are doing well. yesterday we reviewed our ENs, which have shifted somewhat. we both have affection as #1 atm, so discussed more specifically how to meet them. he's been doing very, very well; i am so proud of him, and tell him often how much i enjoy being with him and how he's treating me AND our M. starting our conversations about nearly everything with "how would you feel about..." is so freeing! at first the POJA seems so difficult, especially if you have been IB for such a long time. but now it seems more natural, though even i have to remember from time to time!

i was getting very down about the SF thing. reading UWs postings over the last few days also helped with the freaking out, because i was starting to want to avoid SF (i can't believe i just said that). however, by keeping my blood sugar in the 5-6 range, i think that vavoom is coming back!!! am SO excited (if you'll pardon the pun)! i expect SF will be back in the #1 slot shortly, if the blood sugar stays constant in that green sector. UW, i've been thinking about your posts, and haven't been able to come up with a reasonable sounding reply, so have avoided it altogether for now, sorry!

just baked some toll house cookies - well, kinda toll house. substituted wheat flour & oatmeal for the flour, agave for both sugars, carob for chips, and added some walnuts. we'll see how they taste when they cool. they look very cake-y, and the batter was quite thin, so i'm a little worried, but it's a trial and error process. the banana bread is quite tasty with a dash of cinnamon added (no sugar), and H doesn't even notice i used the wheat flour!

and that's the news from this end. hope everyone else is working steadily and feeling like they're getting somewhere.
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 08/20/12 04:54 AM
NB: just tried the cookies. they taste ok, very cake-like, not very sweet. but no chocolate flavour! the carob chips i used were very tiny. perhaps i didn't put enough in. ah well.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: recovery/exposure - 08/20/12 08:36 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
(although perhaps a little too much boob on display


Would your H be in enthusiastic accordance with this assessment?

blush
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 08/20/12 03:53 PM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: Letty
(although perhaps a little too much boob on display


Would your H be in enthusiastic accordance with this assessment?

blush


Men...I swear!!!!
shocked

grin
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 08/20/12 03:59 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
today was our mid-term break (yes, 1 day), and i'm finally feeling recovered from the ball, after sleeping till 10am, lol. got my nails done and went to the osteopath for my back. my speech students did very well in their exams also - very proud of them, especially the four new ones!

H and i are doing well. yesterday we reviewed our ENs, which have shifted somewhat. we both have affection as #1 atm, so discussed more specifically how to meet them. he's been doing very, very well; i am so proud of him, and tell him often how much i enjoy being with him and how he's treating me AND our M. starting our conversations about nearly everything with "how would you feel about..." is so freeing! at first the POJA seems so difficult, especially if you have been IB for such a long time. but now it seems more natural, though even i have to remember from time to time!

i was getting very down about the SF thing. reading UWs postings over the last few days also helped with the freaking out, because i was starting to want to avoid SF (i can't believe i just said that). however, by keeping my blood sugar in the 5-6 range, i think that vavoom is coming back!!! am SO excited (if you'll pardon the pun)! i expect SF will be back in the #1 slot shortly, if the blood sugar stays constant in that green sector. UW, i've been thinking about your posts, and haven't been able to come up with a reasonable sounding reply, so have avoided it altogether for now, sorry!

just baked some toll house cookies - well, kinda toll house. substituted wheat flour & oatmeal for the flour, agave for both sugars, carob for chips, and added some walnuts. we'll see how they taste when they cool. they look very cake-y, and the batter was quite thin, so i'm a little worried, but it's a trial and error process. the banana bread is quite tasty with a dash of cinnamon added (no sugar), and H doesn't even notice i used the wheat flour!

and that's the news from this end. hope everyone else is working steadily and feeling like they're getting somewhere.



So good to hear an update, Letty, and that things are going so well. smile

You know what? My H and I are getting ready to redo our questionnaires AGAIN too. This will be like the 3rd time in a little less than 2 years. BUT.. that's OK. I asked for it because I feel our needs have shifted too. I feel a bit restless lately and I think it's because I need different things right now - while I'm going through all these treatments for my neck/back. I don't think we need to redo all of them, but we really do need to discuss how we can do a better job during this time. It's not just about me wanting different things, but not wanting to feel anxious that I'm not doing a good job of meeting his needs in this time as well.

SO: good for you for recognizing when you need to reevaluate!

It's also good that you can see the correlations between your libido and your blood sugar levels and all that. While not always fun, education about these things really is where you have to start.

I was interested to hear how your cookies turned out... interesting! More carob!!! LOL. smile

I need to start playing with some of my own favorite recipes.

Did you get the ground flax seed? I swear it makes me feel so much better! My brother says it's the boost in Omega 3's as well as all the other stuff.
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 08/21/12 04:45 AM
lol, HHH, he would have been more enthusiastic about MORE boob, but it is a boys' school, after all!
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 08/21/12 07:44 AM
ugh, i'd better get this out. i did something wrong yesterday. naughty i am mostly writing this for the benefit of newer MB posters, so they know it's not all fine sailing!

last night H was nagging me, again, about smoking. "how many fags did you have TODAY? more than 5? less than 10? a pack?" it really gets on my nerves, because OW was a SMOKER! and i bet it didn't slow him down one little bit.

so finally, i turned off all distractions and said, "i want to ask you something, but don't think i should. however, it is really bothering me."

he said, "is it about 6 years ago?"

i said, "5 years ago TEEF . yes." and he said ok.

so i said, "why do you pester me about smoking so much, when, back then, it apparently didn't bother you." (obscure, i know.)

and he said, "maybe because i care about you more. i love you and cancer will kill you."

so, i hugged him and thanked him for being so concerned about my health (which he might have thought about before bringing this mess into our home, which is WHY I FRICKEN SMOKE! but whatever...).

i also promised i would give up (shortly). then...

he sighed, and said, "i suppose you'll still be going on about this in 10 years time."

mad red flag to a bull, my friends. however, i swallowed it, and said that hurt, and wasn't at all fair. he then apologized. and we talked it out (a conversation! about personal stuff! wow!). and then everything was fine. and things have been just fine today. he's been affectionate and loving, so i guess the talk went well.

but - i know, twoxfour i should have just sucked it up and said NOTHING! but, nobody's perfect, and i'm certainly nowhere near. just one of the stumbling blocks on the road to recovery.
Posted By: Doormat_No_More Re: recovery/exposure - 08/21/12 02:59 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
i should have just sucked it up and said NOTHING! but, nobody's perfect, and i'm certainly nowhere near.


Actually, what he said to you was a disrespectful judgment (telling you about your state of mind). An appropriate response is something along the lines of, "Honey, that comment hurt. I'd love it if you would not tell me what I'm going to do."
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 08/21/12 03:43 PM
Originally Posted By: Doormat_No_More
Originally Posted By: Letty
i should have just sucked it up and said NOTHING! but, nobody's perfect, and i'm certainly nowhere near.


Actually, what he said to you was a disrespectful judgment (telling you about your state of mind). An appropriate response is something along the lines of, "Honey, that comment hurt. I'd love it if you would not tell me what I'm going to do."


Just to add to Door's comment (which I totally agree with) ...

You don't have to suck up anything in recovery. I think that's the hard part of the "not bringing up the A/triggers" deal - learning to boil your thoughts down to where you make it about you - about the present - and not about mistakes of the past. It seems so unfair when you think, "What? I have to suck everything up and (s)he doesn't ever have to hear about it again?!!!"

When you put it in the context of, "What's best for our marriage is to not bring up bad memories. How can I best convey what's bothering me and what I need from my spouse now without doing that," it's a lot less unfair. And...not the same as sucking it up - which would cause resentment.

Tricky, I know.

How to have rephrased the entire conversation? Hmmm... lets brainstorm on that a bit. How about, "It bothers me when you nag me about smoking. I know I should quit; I'm trying to address one health concern at a time and lately I have been concentrating on my diet first, since the diabetes is a big concern. It doesn't seem to bother you that other people smoke, so why me?"

Then, you could have sat down and POJA'd your quitting smoking - and how he could help.

I'm sure you realize the other comment would not have even occurred had you not mentioned 5 years ago.... but, it is what it is.

We ALL make mistakes. If you make one little one in recovery, no one's going to club you. Besides, you've already clubbed yourself. LOL

Just realize that bringing up the A backfires big time when you're looking to feel better about something. Often when we want to lash out about it or about triggers it's because we feel hurt and lashing out seems like it will make us feel better; it just makes things worse. Oh, short term it might feel good to get that dig in - but it does not make the marriage better - and that's our goal here. smile
Posted By: Everthesame Re: recovery/exposure - 08/21/12 05:25 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX

Just realize that bringing up the A backfires big time when you're looking to feel better about something. Often when we want to lash out about it or about triggers it's because we feel hurt and lashing out seems like it will make us feel better; it just makes things worse. Oh, short term it might feel good to get that dig in - but it does not make the marriage better - and that's our goal here. smile



My tongue has many holes in it from biting it wink



On another note, I have been a smoker for many years. Kiss doesn't like it either (and his skank was a smoker as well).
I recently ordered an electronic cigarette to help me get off the cancer-causing ones. I'll let you know what I think
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 08/21/12 05:38 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX

Just realize that bringing up the A backfires big time when you're looking to feel better about something. Often when we want to lash out about it or about triggers it's because we feel hurt and lashing out seems like it will make us feel better; it just makes things worse. Oh, short term it might feel good to get that dig in - but it does not make the marriage better - and that's our goal here. smile



My tongue has many holes in it from biting it wink



On another note, I have been a smoker for many years. Kiss doesn't like it either (and his skank was a smoker as well).
I recently ordered an electronic cigarette to help me get off the cancer-causing ones. I'll let you know what I think


Maybe you can get some piercings for those holes, RQ!!! They'd be like gold stars on kids' homework - a reward for doing good.
rotflmao
Posted By: Everthesame Re: recovery/exposure - 08/21/12 06:20 PM
Sometimes he just gives me that opening, you know?? It's hard not to take it. LOL
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 08/21/12 06:26 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Sometimes he just gives me that opening, you know?? It's hard not to take it. LOL


Yes, I DO know!!!!!!! Been there...
LOL
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 08/22/12 07:19 AM
hi DNM. just wanted to make it clear that i should have said nothing about the smoking. wasn't sure if your reply referred to that or the response to the 10 years thing!

RQ - let me know what you think. i know someone here who has one too, and she's a much heavier smoker than i. will have to give her a call and see how it's going. and i agree - one problem at a time, geez!

now, rings for those holes...i made the mistake of googling some piercings i read about, and boy, that was an eye opener! you could get something really fancy! just don't get carried away and put them anywhere else - those looked painful.
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 09/07/12 10:36 PM
hi all. it's been a couple of weeks, but i've been lurking about. everything is going well - heaps of UA time, RC, IC, and sf.

however, the sf problem for me is at an all-time high. it's like nothing exists below my head, and even that doesn't entertain any sexual thoughts. i'm tired of being numb. NOTHING works. after much thought, i've decided it's the ADs, and i stopped taking them as of yesterday. i simply cannot live without sf, and was multi-o before i started taking them (6 months ago), and now think of sex not at all, though i make very sure to see that H gets it, with variety. he's not too happy about it, but i told him straight up how important it is to me that i meet this need for him, and that i will catch up later! plus, i want to maintain the no-masturbating. that has been terrific, and i can't wait to reap the benefits once the ADs have left my system!

so, am hoping that this will turn the trick, so to speak. it's been really depressing, and i realise that for the last few months, happy or sad, i've just felt nothing. that's no good. and i don't think i need to be on them now anyway, so out they go!

i only wish my regular dr were here. he's gone to the UK for a year, and i don't wish to have to fill in the replacement with all the background (you know, having to start a whole new relationship). plus, i think (haha, shouldn't do this!) that he'd focus on my other health problems rather than the sf.

the other health things have been going ... ok. i admit to having cheated a lot on the new eating plan in the last 2 weeks, but am back to the new normal. my sugar never went over 8.2, which is still not bad. unfortunately, that only encouraged me to add little bits of sugar in, but rereading the corresponding health problems has helped swing me back to the proper eating plan, with just a once a week treat.

and...that's all i've got!

RQ, have you tried the electronic ciggies? i've really cut down, but seem to have a persistent cough after my last allergy attack :O(

and how is unwritten doing? haven't seen her around much since she went on vacation. hope all is ok there.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: recovery/exposure - 09/08/12 03:24 AM
Letty, I was on anti-anxiety meds a few years ago - really very small dose. I had no idea of the possible sexual side effects, but I noticed after a couple of weeks of being on them that my ability to o completely fizzled away. I simply could not go "over the top," so to speak. I pulled out the info sheet and saw that it was a very possible side effect. Under the doctor's guidance, I cut back on the meds until I was taking a really tiny dose (used a pill cutter.) That solved the problem, while also controlling the anxiety. I've been off those completely for a couple of years.

Was tested last week for a couple of things and found out today that my testosterone level is indeed low, so I'll be going to the doc in a couple of weeks to discuss testosterone therapy. If I was single, I wouldn't bother, but I want great SF with some of that old zing. I never have sexual dreams anymore, lost that lovely tingly feeling years ago, even though I love SF with my H and he certainly does all he can.

SF isn't one of my top five ENs, but I still enjoy it very much. My lowered libido and the fact that's it a lot of work for me to achieve an o hasn't diminished our love life, but it would sure be more fun if everything worked the way it used to when I was younger.

Take care going off your meds; the doctors usually recommend tapering off so it doesn't upset your body.
Posted By: unwritten Re: recovery/exposure - 09/08/12 01:41 PM
Unwritten is good. Not a lot new to report as we just got back from a LONG vacation, and for any of you who live in FL HOW do you handle that heat!!! Good grief bring on the snow baby!

Our UA time and meeting critical need time is suffering BADLY, and we have some major discussions to do about where to head from here. Before vacation we talked about the online program, counseling with SH, etc. and we need to get that going to get back on track (or get off the tracks, if thats what we decide, IDK). But just got back this week and then school started and its been SO busy all week. We were supposed to have a date night last night and were both really looking forward to it, but one of the kids decided to 'run away' (he hid in the back yard for 3 hours) and was really having a meltdown that lasted all night, he has some issues...We don't feel comfortable leaving when he is like that so our date night went to he77 in a handbasket. Very frustrating. Sometimes I wonder how anyone with little kids, especially if you have a rather difficult one which we do, has a good relationship.

I'll update my own thread next week when we have some time to figure out where we're going and have something to report. Right now there's just a lot of nothing going on (and I mean, nothing, if you get my drift...but I have vowed to not keep complaining about that...)

Sorry to hear about all your health issues and this latest one with regards to SF, but I think it is great that you have such a positive commitment to filling that need.
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 09/08/12 08:31 PM
hi LWFH! my doc didn't mention anything about the side effects, which kinda bugs me, as i wouldn't have taken this particular drug if i had known. and i'm so glad you mentioned sexual dreams! i can't remember the last time i had one (and goodness knows they beat dreams about Hs and cheating hands down!) i look forward to their return.

i know i shouldn't have just quit cold turkey, but i'm willing to face the side effects of *that* in my quest to get back to business! i'd be interested in hearing about this testosterone therapy...

hi UW, glad to hear from you! i hope you two do go back to SH - he really keeps things on track for you and provides the accountability your H needs to have. i concur your comment about little kids. i can't imagine what life would have been like with more than 1, and how i ever would have managed to stay married with multiple. though, as you can tell, i'm not horribly maternal! it's good to know my own limits.

and believe me, i'm gonna get that need filled, even if i have to bend over backwards (haha) to do it!

i look forward to your update!
Posted By: unwritten Re: recovery/exposure - 09/08/12 08:56 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty


and believe me, i'm gonna get that need filled, even if i have to bend over backwards (haha) to do it!



Bend over BACKWARDS, whhaaattt? I don't think I've heard of that one. Must consult the kama sutra...

Thanks for the date night idea Letty wink
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 09/09/12 03:05 AM
lmao, you're welcome!

i've always been flexible on the how. crazy
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 09/12/12 02:10 PM
I can relate to what you're going through, Letty. In the back of my mind I'm wondering if it's the ADs or just aging or what. I'm not on ADs but I've had issues with this too lately as you know, and it is SOOO frustrating! I've been wondering a lot lately about bioidentical hormones and if they work and whether or not they're safe...

I guess I need to order that dang device! lol

How's the cold-turkeying the ADs working out?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: recovery/exposure - 09/12/12 05:59 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
RQ, have you tried the electronic ciggies? i've really cut down, but seem to have a persistent cough after my last allergy attack :O(



I have and I like it, though I haven't been able to completely give up the real ones. I am using the electronic one more and more though. You can also get the liquid for it in different flavors. I'm trying strawberry right now and it's pretty good. The company is called Never Light Again.
Posted By: Littlebit3 Re: recovery/exposure - 09/12/12 07:53 PM
Hey Sunny. Interesting thing, I just returned from my check up appointment with my bioidentical hormone lady. She has a great website that anyone can go visit. She is VERY thorough in her information. She has been doing this for a LOOOONNNGGGG time!! She is a pioneer of this. She has taught hundreds of OB's, PA's and Dr.'s all over the United States about it. It is www.returnofpassion.com. I have been on them for a year and a half. You will have to have bloodwork done. I had extreme low levels of Vitamin D. This is very dangerous. That is a red flag for breast cancer!!! I also was low in progesterone, estrogen and testosterone. Most Americans are low in vitamin D, believe it or not. This along with the other low levels causes weakness, tiredness, lack of focus, fuzzy brain, MOODYNESS, and so much more!! You will feel better if you get your levels back to normal. Estrogen is the thing that will help the foggy brain the most! Hope this helps.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 09/13/12 01:28 AM
Originally Posted By: Littlebit3
Hey Sunny. Interesting thing, I just returned from my check up appointment with my bioidentical hormone lady. She has a great website that anyone can go visit. She is VERY thorough in her information. She has been doing this for a LOOOONNNGGGG time!! She is a pioneer of this. She has taught hundreds of OB's, PA's and Dr.'s all over the United States about it. It is www.returnofpassion.com. I have been on them for a year and a half. You will have to have bloodwork done. I had extreme low levels of Vitamin D. This is very dangerous. That is a red flag for breast cancer!!! I also was low in progesterone, estrogen and testosterone. Most Americans are low in vitamin D, believe it or not. This along with the other low levels causes weakness, tiredness, lack of focus, fuzzy brain, MOODYNESS, and so much more!! You will feel better if you get your levels back to normal. Estrogen is the thing that will help the foggy brain the most! Hope this helps.


Thanks, LB! I am definitely going to check this out! Interestingly, I have just started taking Vitamin D supplements along with my daily flax seed.
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 09/14/12 06:48 AM
hi all. this has been a really bad week. one of our staff members committed suicide last saturday night. it was a shock to everyone; however, it was very planned. he wrote a new will, packed up all his stuff, left a note, etc. i guess he had made his decision, but man, i wish i had had even a little inkling that all wasn't right. the note told his partner to stay away from their shed, but of course she went running out there. that must have been horrible, just horrible. i can't even imagine.

the funeral was very nice. the minister (anglican) didn't shy away from the fact that it was a suicide and handled it with grace. some of our students, and our headmaster, spoke, and all of our students who attended did the haka as the casket went out. my heart really about broke when the grandbaby said "bye bye mikie" as the casket was carried out.

:sigh: we've had to hold a straight face and keep things as regular as normal for the students, but we (staff) sure could use talking time as well. they did make counselling available to us, in addition to the students, but with everyone picking up extra lessons and duties, i don't think anyone had a chance to take advantage of it.

i am glad this week is over. going cold turkey on the ADs has been ok; just some quite vivid dreams. not bad, just weird. i'm looking forward to the payoff.

i'll be back to post later. just feeling blah.

oh, on the upside, i have been browsing this blog on a couple who have adopted several children, including a couple special needs - they have 17 children total! their M sounds amazing! http://smilesandtrials.blogspot.co.nz/ it says ".nz" but they live in california.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: recovery/exposure - 09/14/12 03:10 PM
hug to you during this tough time, friend.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 09/14/12 07:28 PM
That's really awful, Letty. So sorry to hear that about your co-worker. frown
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 09/16/12 08:45 AM
ok, i just need to vent. maybe this is what happens with cold turkey on the ADs, maybe it's just that my feelings are all in turmoil because of my colleague, or the trouble i'm having with one particular class that's making me feel crappy. i don't know.

rant on:

i am just pissed off today. mad it's been a [censored] weekend. the weather has been damp. H has wanted to do nothing. "i'm tired. my shoulder hurts. blah blah blah." christ, i'm the one with the chronic illness, who hasn't been pain free in over 20 years! and he won't do a damn thing about it - won't go to the dr, won't try a heating pad, won't take a painkiller, won't go to the oesteopath, nothing! just wants to complain. i NEVER complain about my pain. otherwise, i'd never have time for anything else.

i looked forward to getting in the garden all week, since that's where we've been spending most of our time together lately. no gardening. yesterday, he mentioned going bowling today. no bowling. we were going to go to dinner at a nice restaurant last night - i got a $75 voucher from work for organising the ball - but we couldn't find the voucher at the last minute (turned out cleaning lady had moved it to my desk downstairs) so we went to our usual place (all dolled up), scarfed down our food, checked out the new (temporary) ice skating rink (full of teens), then came home, where H plopped in front of the rugby.

then, today, after ZERO affection all weekend, he wanted to have sex. he must have been gobsmacked when i said no (i NEVER say no!). seriously, you've ignored me all weekend, and now you expect me to have sex with you? yeah, right!

at this very moment, i am feeling that this is just too much work. that i will never get over "it" and the later blowback, and that it's just not worth trying to fix a shattered M when i could meet someone else who has already learned their lessons and is ready to be a terrific husband. i've even taken off my wedding ring because i'm feeling spiteful, which i've never, ever done (it feels weird).

i tried to go over the week and count up all the little acts that add up to EN meeting, and they were few and far between this week (on his part). i'm just feeling empty and depressed and tired.

and, like UW, i am sick and tired of not getting the sex i want and how i want it! SICK i tell you! gah!!! at this point, i wish I was the one who had the affair! ok, maybe just a teeny-weeny bit, not a lot. i'm feeling so mean right now, i wish he could feel just a fraction of the pain i've felt.

big sigh. ok,
/rant

that's better. a little, anyhow. thanks for letting me get it off my chest before i said or did something really stupid IRL.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 09/17/12 07:00 PM
(((((((((LETTY))))))))))

I think after the week you've had it's no wonder you are feeling so frustrated. You needed some extra TLC and instead, you got less. Plus, going off the ADs certainly can't have helped.

It's important in times like these to get really specific with yourself and with your H about what you need, how you need it, and how he is falling short. Too many times it's easy to succumb to the big picture of "I feel so bad..." and when you break it down, it may not be as bad as you think. Or - if it is - you can see ways in which to fix it. Learn to ask for what you want and of course, POJA ways to get it!

The weekend plans - and H's hurting shoulder and how to address it - should definitely have been POJA'd. It wasn't.

Cut yourself some slack though: very emotional time.
Posted By: unwritten Re: recovery/exposure - 09/17/12 07:19 PM
Letty, I logged in and responded to this TWICE this weekend and both times I goofed it up and accidently erased it.

I was just going to tell you to not let some bad weather and a cruddy weekend derail you. You have a lot going on, you have to realize its not all about your H and his lack of effort right?

Hang in there, hope this week gets better for you.

And I'm happy to see I'm the poster child for not gettin enough. frown

(My other responses were a LOT longer...)
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: recovery/exposure - 09/18/12 03:46 AM
hug
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 09/18/12 05:03 AM
hey guys, thanks, i'm better. i've realised that i too am having a lot of pain and exhaustion right now, and i need to rest and take better care of myself than i have been doing. 4 morning teas w/carrot cake in the last week have not helped me at all! and i had late appointments 3 out of 4 days last week as well. i'm tired!

boy, i was feeling really pissy the other night, and am so glad i didn't allow it to muck up all my hard work! thanks for being there and letting me vent.

one and half more weeks, and it's the term break. spring is coming too. i can't wait for both!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 09/18/12 08:59 PM
Glad you are feeling better about things! Things really can get to you if you are tired and overwhelmed. Make sure your H knows how to help you during these times. Let him pamper you some (he may need some instructions, lol).
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 09/29/12 11:38 PM
still here! it's been an exceedingly busy last two weeks with the end of the long winter term. i am exhausted! but today i actually got dressed; yesterday was a pajama day. i really needed it to nurse the respiratory infection that developed after my last weekend gardening. simply no way to take a day off during exam week, and if i had taken friday (the height of my illness) i wouldn't get paid over the holidays. i'm sure the students in the exam i proctored really appreciated the constant noise (cough cough, blow nose, cough cough cough).

things all good on the M front. yesterday we groomed each other like a couple of monkeys before going out to dinner (i shaved the back of his neck; he scrubbed my back w/homemade vanilla-sugar scrub). today i plan on baking, since his shoulder still hurts too much to garden. did i mention he brought me home a wine barrel last weekend? i planted lettuces and carrots. they are doing nicely. i've also gotten started on a long, narrow strawberry bed using the four planters i found in our backyard from the previous owners. they are encircling our garden.

this weekend's paper has got me thinking MB stuff. one article was on the zen of nail polish, and how when we paint our nails we are unable to multitask for the painting/drying period, and can instead really give thought to our lives.

the other was our horoscope, which said: "if you are old enough [snort], remember back 29 years ago." at first, i miscalculated, and thought about when i was 21: married to my abusive 1st husband and knowing nothing at all practical about life, particularly in regard to who i was and what i wanted, never mind how to go about getting it.

then i realised that 29 years ago i was actually 15, the worst of my teen years. it wasn't pleasant thinking back to that year - a lot of grief on several fronts. however, it is good to reflect and think about how far we've come. too often we only consider how far we have to go.

so i focused my thoughts not on the pain of that year, but on my own thought processes. how i'd been educated on how to have a seriously bad marriage, how i didn't know how to get to where i wanted to be, how awkward is was to be growing up in a split generation, where women were still marrying out of high school, while others were starting to make careers for themselves.

then i thought about how both my parents raised me to be independent, how my mother reiterated again and again not to need or depend on a man (yes, this is funny coming from a woman who's been married 4 times and has never been alone since she first married at 18), how little prepared i was for M.

i am so happy to have found MB and a plan to guide my M to make it so much more rewarding than it ever was. and i am a bit ashamed at my own selfishness in the first years of our M, how independent i was, how demanding. and i am of a generation that took "marriage and family" in high school (along with learning, with all the other girls, how to type). i still have my term project - a wedding plan. how silly and school-girlish it is! despite teaching us cooking, budgeting, and caring for a baby, nothing in the class taught us about the care of husbands or how to grow a marriage! thinking back to this class, i don't recall anything at all about nurturing a relationship beyond that of a newborn. and certainly nothing about how that newborn came to be. like everything else in our society, the class was all about the wedding.

so my final self-reflection? to not waste time mourning what has been lost but instead counting blessings for what has been gained.

ps: i think i'm through the AD withdrawals.
Posted By: JenniferVoyager Re: recovery/exposure - 09/30/12 02:29 AM
What a wonderful reflection, Letty, thank you for sharing it! I think it's a great mindset for any of us. Glad to see your strength through the journey.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 09/30/12 06:11 PM
I am guilty at times of thinking too much about what could have been, had I known better and made better decisions years ago. It does no good; it's a pointless exercise. I try very hard to just keep my mind on the present and future most of the time these days!

Glad you all are doing well, Letty. I can relate so much to what you've said.
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 10/07/12 06:01 AM
ladies, i am ever so pleased to report that 1) it has been one month since i have taken any ADs and 2) i am back in working order! dance2

i feel like a person again, instead of a zombie. i hadn't realised how numb and deadened i had gotten, everywhere (not just *there*). they were definitely a bad match-up for me.

the return of "all in working order" has been fantastic! i am sooooo happy, i could just do the happy dance all day. it certainly does give me a rosier outlook on just about everything, haha.

that's all i'm going to write for today. hope you're all having a good weekend.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: recovery/exposure - 10/07/12 09:18 PM
hurray
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 10/08/12 06:20 AM
thanks BH!

got a call from the diabetes nurse today. my most recent 3-month blood test came back, and i'm at 41! "normal" goes up to 40. i still have to take the meds (boo), but she says i'm eating great! that was a nice uplift after the gym. (the thing about the blood test is that they can catch you if you're lying about what you eat.) she says, "giving up tootsie pops was worth it?" i'm thinking, no, but i guess those giving up all that home baking was!

i got to the gym today, and the trainer says, "you don't look too happy to be here." (in my head): people are *happy* to be here? i just come 'cause i have to!
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 10/20/12 01:50 AM
wow, we've only been back at school 4 days and i'm already knackered! thank goodness it's a 4 day weekend!

my birthday was this last week, and for the first time ever, H bought me a dress. a stunner of a dress. from a nz designer. expensive. gorgeous. i couldn't believe it! i wore it immediately and got so many compliments! it's lovely. how sweet of him to get that for me.

over the last week we've wallpapered our DDs room, and bought new linens for it (i was totally stoked, because i love getting a good bargain, and i was able to redress the bed, duvet cover, pillow cases & european cases too for a mere $45 [originally over $200] at the clearance sale in our only dept store!). tomorrow we are painting the ceiling, and i'm having some roman blinds made for the windows, because i discovered with the curtains down that the view is astounding without them blocking the space at the ends of the windows. it's all in natural tones now (no teen colour scheme, lol), and looks really welcoming.

H also brought me a lovely large fern from the farmer's market, which i planted today in the backyard. we spent the morning emptying out the spa pool and giving it a good clean, only to discover the pool place isn't open and we can't replace the filter until tuesday! small town living.

so...tonight the speedway starts up for the season, and i just can't bring myself to go. and i'm feeling reticent about that decision. i mean, i'm going in two weeks when it's guy fawkes and there will be fireworks, but today i'm tired, it's really gusty out, and i have no desire to sit for several hours on hard wooden benches (yes, i always bring pillows) when i can stay home, order some indian food, take a bath, and watch "being there," which has been sitting on my desk for about 6 weeks.

shouldn't i be going? or shouldn't H be staying home? i don't know. i mean, i don't have a problem with him going. we've gotten pretty good about saying, "how would you feel if..." he will text me all night about this and that and the other. he will photograph the races, be down in the pits with the drivers, and we go about 1-1/5 hours before racing starts to get our seats. we usually eat our dinner (brought) together, and then i read while he runs around talking to drivers and looking at the cars. i wouldn't really be spending any time with him, which is why it's so uninteresting for me. and it seem like such a waste of money for me to go when it's not my thing.

is that MB? i don't to start that slippery slope to IB, ya know? we are getting great UA....thoughts?
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 10/22/12 11:20 AM
Happy Belated Birthday, Letty!!!

That's really exciting about the new dress and all of that. So happy things are going so well for you!

As for the speedway thing... well.... as you know, married couples are not supposed to spend nights apart, but you did not mention if it was an overnight thing. If it's not then I don't see a problem with you not going unless there are conditions of the whole experience that led to his previous indiscretions. How does he feel about you not going? If you both agree, are getting in UA time beforehand, and there is nothing there to make an A possible, I don't see a problem.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: recovery/exposure - 10/23/12 02:20 AM
HappyBirthday belated
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 10/26/12 04:05 AM
thanks for the birthday wishes, ladies.

sunny, it was just for the evening (here in town; i can hear it from the house, and almost see it from my window), and he actually came home before 9pm, lol, when i wasn't expecting him until 11. there is no connection between this activity and the a, and the people who attend are males, couples, families, and roving bands of younger teens. no hoochie mamas! (though some of those young girls [14-15] dress pretty darn provocatively [well, very short skirts; nz girls do not dress like usa girls]; i feel sorry for them - they must be FREEZING!) i'm relieved to have confirmation it's not an issue. laugh

H doesn't mind if i don't go. he knows it's not interesting to me. and we spent the whole day together. we generally average 30hrs/week UA time, except for the odd busy week here & there. summer will be different, and i'm a little apprehensive about it, but we've already started POJAing our summer activities.

well, my birthday was lovely, but i have even bigger news: my only child, my 19yo DD, who is in her first year of study in her trade, just won FIRST PLACE at the national professional org's awards, and not in the student/novice category, but in the professional category! we couldn't believe it! i am so proud of her. there was a lovely article/interview with her in the paper. what a star! hurray

she has been bugging me for an iphone for xmas (4S, not the expensive new one), and i'm going to try to swing the money to get her that as a congrats gift instead.

side note: we do not have all the lovely phone plans here. good cell phones cost about $800-1K (or more!). the new iphone is $1049/16gig. and on my plan, which i pay $40/mo for, i get a mere 2000 texts (do i need to say i don't use these?), 60 minutes calling, and a puny 50MB data (i know, it's unbelievable). i can try to get her a 4S off ebay, i hope.

and that's the news. it's now the weekend, so i'm off to have so fun & relaxation!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 10/26/12 01:29 PM
Congratulations to your wonderful daughter!!!! That's awesome! I'm not surprised. The apple sounds like it does not fall very far from the tree. smile

That's crazy about your phones. GEEESH!!!! My older 2 have the 4S and love it.

30 hours a week of UA time - that's certainly sufficient. smile Good for you!

Hope your weekend is fantastic.
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 10/26/12 11:15 PM
weekend is a go - weather nice today; warm, with high cloud. tomorrow is supposed to rain :O(

here is a thought i have been considering since i found MB:

i am considering selling my horse. i hardly have time to ride her, and i know she's keen to get out. another girl at work has two daughters in pony club...but only 1 pony. my horse loves pony club, and as she is older, she is calm and bombproof (not horribly spirited/badly behaved with bucking/rearing/etc) and perfect for a young rider.

HOWEVER i am very torn about this. i love riding. i love my horse. no matter how crappy i feel, mentally or physically, getting out on my horse for a morning of riding in this beautiful country makes everything right. i can ride at the beach, i can ride in the hills of a farm; my options are limitless.

i've been horse-mad all my life. i can't remember a time i didn't beg my parents for a horse, and i got my first one on my 11th birthday. i ride both english and western, but am too old and fragile now to ride competitively. i only trek with other horsey ladies.

my H has his cars, i have my horse. in the past, when i have had time to ride, we schedule our separate interests at the same time (he'll go to some car thing/work on a car, and i'll ride). my husband hates horses, unfortunately. how nice it would be to ride with him! he will come harrow the horse paddock and feed the sheep. and once he held my horse for me while i treated her (he held the lead from outside the paddock, lol. great big strong bloke, outside!).

before i started this job 6 years ago, i rode 2-3 times a week. however, when my knee went, and later i had the replacement, i rode less & less. i haven't ridden since february, though i see her every week. i am keen to get out during the summer. when school is in, i find that i am exhausted on the weekends, and/or have too much work to do to give hours away on what seems at times like a selfish pursuit. yet, when my paddock mate can get me out, i have such a good time.

part of me feels that if i give up riding, a part of me will be gone. like i've given up everything i enjoy. and i think i will be resentful, even if i say i want to do it because my horse deserves to be with someone who will ride much more often. what to do...i don't know. i think i'll see how much riding i get in over our summer break and take it from there.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 10/27/12 03:53 PM
That IS quite the dilemma, Letty. I know if it were me, I'd be too attached to give up the horse. frown I've ALWAYS loved horses! Would love to have one! Having always lived in the city, never have been able to manage it. I used to ride at a local place when I was in my teens though - every weekend.

Is there some sort of in-between solution you could come up with? That you "loaned her out" with still being able to have her part time???
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 10/28/12 02:31 AM
you're so good at brainstorming! H is trying to bribe me - if i sell the horse & horse float, i can have a new car, lol. i will offer that to my colleague and see what she says.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 10/28/12 06:11 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
you're so good at brainstorming! H is trying to bribe me - if i sell the horse & horse float, i can have a new car, lol. i will offer that to my colleague and see what she says.


Well, the bribe may or may not be worth it. I mean, if you do that and your heart is not enthusiastic, you will end up resenting him for "making" you give up your horse. The decision needs to be something you are ready for.
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 10/31/12 03:46 AM
guess what? i sat next to em at briefing yesterday morning, and she suggested i keep the horse at her place for the girls, and ride it when i feel like it! hahaha. ask and it will be provided! haven't made my decision yet though.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 10/31/12 07:14 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
guess what? i sat next to em at briefing yesterday morning, and she suggested i keep the horse at her place for the girls, and ride it when i feel like it! hahaha. ask and it will be provided! haven't made my decision yet though.


Well - that does sound like a decent solution - if you're ready for that step.
Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: recovery/exposure - 10/31/12 01:37 PM
Letty, make sure you decide up front whom provides vet care and shoes for the horse.

I feel your pain as I had at least 1 horse all my life and had to give it up(money of course). BUT I finally found a place close by that you do an hourly ride but it is not the normal head-to-tail- rental and I love it. It is much more cost effective then owning your own and you still get to canter and trot when you want and they have a wonderfull mountain to explore.
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 11/01/12 04:05 AM
thanks LD. i was thinking about shoes just yesterday. and she's allergic to grass (hahahaha), so sometimes vet costs do come up (steroid shots and the like). we will have to discuss it. i'm still going to wait out our summer and see how it goes. no quick moves. i used to be a person who liked to make firm decisions quickly. i now understand the benefits of biding my time (who'da guessed?). when in doubt, do nothing smile
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 11/11/12 03:17 AM
i feel like the tide has really turned, and that things are just getting better and better. this week we had plans for saturday, but on friday, H asked if instead of our plans, how would i feel about going to the food & wine festival? this is something he *never* would have gone to previously, and i was floored, especially since he asked it in a "going on a date" way, which seemed really romantic to me. gave me butterflies! i pointed out that the F&W would have a cover charge, and that each booth would cost even more money, but he was totally fine with that, to my astonishment (him being a penny-pincher). we went and had a great time, and even the difficulty in finding parking wasn't an issue. the day was gorgeous, the food good, and the company lovely. we ate sitting looking over the water (it was on the beach). next weekend we're off to lake taupo for powercruise (an australian car event, where you can drive your car on the track any way you want). no, my car is not ready :O( but it's nearly there.

this MB thing really does work. i feel that our relationship, the way we communicate, has improved so much. even though he was so resistant in the beginning, he has come around and is appreciating the benefits that *he* gets out of MB.

on the downside, my visit with the nurse this week was depressing. she said i'm eating all good stuff, but that i eat too much (*and* i'm still hungry!).

what is too much, you ask? an individual pot of yogurt is too much. "have you actually measured how much is in one?" well, no. what sane person measures out food that's already in individual servings? (i should point out this is low-fat, low-sugar natural yogurt, not that artificially coloured/flavoured stuff you get in the states.) "how many strawberries did you eat yesterday?" well, between morning tea and after dinner, about a cup. "that's far too many in one day." geez - they're frickin' strawberries!! and we only get them for 2-3 months out of the year!

the whole experienced left me depressed, so friday i had kinda a FU day - had a bite of carrot cake at morning tea, and a coke with my lunch (oooohhhh, i'm a radical!)! but then i went to the gym, too. but man, i'm telling you, those actresses must eat nothing at all to maintain their skinny frames. i'm just a normal girl, and i'm eating 1/2 c cereal for breakfast (fat-free milk), homemade tiny whole-bran muffin w/yogurt and strawbs for morning tea, a sandwich (whole grain bread, 2 slice meat, lettuce, mustard) and apple for lunch, large salad, veges and some kind of meat at dinner, strawbs for dessert, and an orange at 8.30 pm, and IT'S TOO MUCH!!! argh!!!

as a person who loves cooking, the textures and tastes of food, and who shows love with food preparation, this is really hard. i experiment a lot with recipes (no sugar, very little butter/oil [for instance, there's only 1/3 c oil in my homemade bran muffins, for a yield of 12 small muffins], lots of herbs/spices for flavour)...i just don't know what else to do except starve and feel like food is not an enjoyable part of my life. bah. this just makes me want to cry. but i guess it's do or die, right? so suck it up, letty. i'm going to make enchiladas (low-cheese, chicken, corn tortillas) for dinner on wednesday, and i just know she's going to say that 2 are too many :sigh: i am going to bring a corn tortilla with me. you can't buy them here, so i'm hoping when she sees one, she'll understand why i ate two (i also photograph my food for her so she doesn't think i'm cheating/lying).

anyhow, that's my weekly update! off now to prep sunday roast. ::evil cackle::
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 11/11/12 03:23 AM
whoops, forgot to add that maybe, instead of going to fiji, we are looking at staying in a top-notch romantic hotel in dunedin for 4-5 days before school starts in january. while i've been to christchurch 3 times, it's always been for work. the two of us have never been to the south island together and for fun. yay!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: recovery/exposure - 11/11/12 03:40 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
i feel like the tide has really turned, and that things are just getting better and better. this week we had plans for saturday, but on friday, H asked if instead of our plans, how would i feel about going to the food & wine festival? this is something he *never* would have gone to previously, and i was floored, especially since he asked it in a "going on a date" way, which seemed really romantic to me. gave me butterflies! i pointed out that the F&W would have a cover charge, and that each booth would cost even more money, but he was totally fine with that, to my astonishment (him being a penny-pincher). we went and had a great time, and even the difficulty in finding parking wasn't an issue. the day was gorgeous, the food good, and the company lovely. we ate sitting looking over the water (it was on the beach). next weekend we're off to lake taupo for powercruise (an australian car event, where you can drive your car on the track any way you want). no, my car is not ready :O( but it's nearly there.

this MB thing really does work. i feel that our relationship, the way we communicate, has improved so much. even though he was so resistant in the beginning, he has come around and is appreciating the benefits that *he* gets out of MB.

on the downside, my visit with the nurse this week was depressing. she said i'm eating all good stuff, but that i eat too much (*and* i'm still hungry!).

what is too much, you ask? an individual pot of yogurt is too much. "have you actually measured how much is in one?" well, no. what sane person measures out food that's already in individual servings? (i should point out this is low-fat, low-sugar natural yogurt, not that artificially coloured/flavoured stuff you get in the states.) "how many strawberries did you eat yesterday?" well, between morning tea and after dinner, about a cup. "that's far too many in one day." geez - they're frickin' strawberries!! and we only get them for 2-3 months out of the year!

the whole experienced left me depressed, so friday i had kinda a FU day - had a bite of carrot cake at morning tea, and a coke with my lunch (oooohhhh, i'm a radical!)! but then i went to the gym, too. but man, i'm telling you, those actresses must eat nothing at all to maintain their skinny frames. i'm just a normal girl, and i'm eating 1/2 c cereal for breakfast (fat-free milk), homemade tiny whole-bran muffin w/yogurt and strawbs for morning tea, a sandwich (whole grain bread, 2 slice meat, lettuce, mustard) and apple for lunch, large salad, veges and some kind of meat at dinner, strawbs for dessert, and an orange at 8.30 pm, and IT'S TOO MUCH!!! argh!!!

as a person who loves cooking, the textures and tastes of food, and who shows love with food preparation, this is really hard. i experiment a lot with recipes (no sugar, very little butter/oil [for instance, there's only 1/3 c oil in my homemade bran muffins, for a yield of 12 small muffins], lots of herbs/spices for flavour)...i just don't know what else to do except starve and feel like food is not an enjoyable part of my life. bah. this just makes me want to cry. but i guess it's do or die, right? so suck it up, letty. i'm going to make enchiladas (low-cheese, chicken, corn tortillas) for dinner on wednesday, and i just know she's going to say that 2 are too many :sigh: i am going to bring a corn tortilla with me. you can't buy them here, so i'm hoping when she sees one, she'll understand why i ate two (i also photograph my food for her so she doesn't think i'm cheating/lying).

anyhow, that's my weekly update! off now to prep sunday roast. ::evil cackle::

I love reading your updates, Let.

Now that I have read your daily menu and I'm starving from that little snack I must go drink some water. laugh

Love your cackle laugh!! We need some new icons!!
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: recovery/exposure - 11/11/12 07:35 AM
Dunedin .... what a great choice! Make sure your venture out to the Otago Peninisular .... THE MOST beautiful place in the world. Lots of nice restaurants too.

It's wonderful to read about the positives of MB, I'm glad all is going well for you.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: recovery/exposure - 11/12/12 08:57 PM
I agree that we need a cackle laugh icon!!!
smile

SOOOO happy for you on all fronts! Congrats to Mr. Letty for a fabulous idea on the food & wine festival. smile

I can really relate to your diet scenario too. Although, right now I don't have any limits on how much I can have as long as what I'm having is on my plan. I don't think I'd survive very long if I did. Well, I would, but I wouldn't be a happy camper! smile I love this plan I'm on. I feel great - full - losing weight - it's wonderful!
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 12/08/12 10:05 PM
hey guys, i just wanted to let you know that i'm still here! i've just been super busy at work with the end of the year, and i applied for a new job. plus, i've been going to the gym (yuck) 3x/week, so have had nooooo free time. well, any free time goes to the M. everything here is fine.

though...i'm at a new point. i've come to realise recently that to keep moving forward i've got to let go of the "i know i can do this on my own, so if things don't work out, i can leave him" and move on to being 100% vulnerable. it is so hard to get to that "i'll be ok" point, and it's hard to let it go. however, i cannot keep trying to build a good marriage with that in the back of my head. it's time to really let go and commit. this is really scary!

and...i don't have time to write more than that. my work xmas do is in an hour, and i've got to go put my face on and do something with the rats nest that is my hair. school ends in 3 days, then i'll be back! hope you all had a lovely thanksgiving!
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: recovery/exposure - 12/10/12 03:37 AM
I imagine that it is scary.
Ive asked myself lately. When my wife's affair dies a natural death, as it likely will, should I take her back?
More importantly, could I?

Adultery wipes someone out and as explained in Buyers Renters Freeloaders the betrayed spouse needs to downgrade to Renter status to protect themselves from the freeloader partner. To make the decision to become a Buyer again is huge.
It makes the individual vulnerable to someone that previously abused them.

I wish you luck. I have no experience.

But on the Radio Show Dr Harley says the SAA program does work. And upgrading back to Buyer status is part of the program.
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 12/19/12 06:39 AM
Originally Posted By: Jedi_Knight
I imagine that it is scary.
Ive asked myself lately. When my wife's affair dies a natural death, as it likely will, should I take her back?
More importantly, could I?

Adultery wipes someone out and as explained in Buyers Renters Freeloaders the betrayed spouse needs to downgrade to Renter status to protect themselves from the freeloader partner. To make the decision to become a Buyer again is huge.
It makes the individual vulnerable to someone that previously abused them.

I wish you luck. I have no experience.

But on the Radio Show Dr Harley says the SAA program does work. And upgrading back to Buyer status is part of the program.


holy cow, did i get a shock from the new icons!

hi jediknight. i like your screen name smile

i am working on the fear - i have found that it keeps coming back more and more often now that i have voiced it, and i don't know if i'm ready to be a buyer just yet. the last several years have been quite the roller coaster, and i'm downright scared at putting all my eggs in one basket again. i'm going to wait and watch and see how things are at the 1-year-of-MB mark. then i will reassess. hopefully, articulating this decision will help allay the fear i've been harboring these last few weeks.

on the up side, things have been just fine. we're gearing up for a nice xmas with our dd and her bf, finances are going well, the house is really shaping up, and most importantly, haha) i'm finally on holiday break! having said that, i've been at "the office" every day since school broke up, getting ready for next year. but at least i don't *have* to, YKWIM?

JK, are you in pb? i spent today catching up on friends' threads, but i haven't read yours yet (i'm assuming there is one). are you protecting your LB$? being in pb keeps that LB$ in suspended animation so that you do have the ability to attempt recovery once the a is dead.

i'm sorry you're here because you have an active WS in your life. it does indeed suck. i hope that you are working towards personal recovery in the meantime. the people round these parts are aces at helping out with that.

to everyone else - hey gang! glad to be back! remember how much i complained about how cold winter was? well today was an absolutely sweltering (and humid - frizzy hair central) 33 degrees. such a pity linen is so wrinkly; it does make for better (temp-wise) dressing! (who am i kidding - i always look like an unmade bed anyhow. my mother always, but always, looks immaculate. why didn't i inherit this?) tomorrow's forecast is 23. here's hoping. pray
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: recovery/exposure - 12/19/12 08:15 PM
Hello, Letty,

Boy do I know all about frizzy hair. From a humid windy island to south TX, I cherish the few good hair days I get!

I had a foot out the door of my marriage for over a year. I was "wait and see." I tested and waited and watched to see if all this new behavior was going to stick. Would he keep his promise of agreeing to the POJA and everything else?

It took the full two years to finally believe that maybe this really is a marriage of two buyers. Two years is a long time; it felt like an eternity at the time. I can see from so many threads on this forum that the road to recovery really is very narrow. If H had not done all he did in the way of JC and in keeping EPs, it would not have worth my time, my effort, nor my heart to stay. We had a few bumps along the way with his EPs. His free and easy habits with women were hard to break, but he "gets" it now.

Two years post D-Day, the rending pain is gone. I sometimes think I will never really feel the same way about my H or my marriage, so a bit of sadness there over my - can I say it? My defiled marriage. That makes me sad, but the grieving is over. It's like a childhood injury that goes away, leaves no pain, but the scar will be there until the day I die.

DoormatNoMore reminded me to check the status of my marriage two years post D-Day. Is it better than before the affair? Keep watching and working the program. You may not feel really "safe" for a while, but you can see every day what your H is doing to help you heal. I had to remind myself when I agonized "Look what he's doing today."
Posted By: Letty Re: recovery/exposure - 12/19/12 10:06 PM
thanks LWFH. i saw a nifty idea today. it said to write down all the good little things that happen and put them in a jar (or whatever). then, when you feel crappy, you can take them out and look at them. i think a tangible reminder would help not take things for granted. we actually did a little (test? quiz? project?) one week, where we wrote what ENs we specifically met and how, and linked them to the EN questionnaires. then at the end of the week asked each other what ENs had been met and how (to see if they matched - H has EN for ..., i filled it by ..., he noted ... and vice versa), and boy was that fun! it really helped demonstrate how we are both working on keeping that LB$ going.

but i still feel wary. although his a is now far in the background, our more recent troubles still are quite present in my mind. it takes such a long and painful time to get to the "i can do this on my own" state of mind, and i am just so scared of making that 100% vulnerability and then getting screwed over, again. keeping that LB$ high over time, w/continuing UA time, i'm sure, will help. but yeah, i can see 2 years as a good benchmark.

OTOH, i have gone back to daily "trust but *verify,* which i had kinda let go, and this is helping me feel a lot better.

well, i'd best get out and run today's errands, or xmas will be upon me before i know it! here's to a cooler day and straight hair!
Posted By: Letty dreams - 12/20/12 10:03 PM
well, it's only taken 2 days back on the boards to have a massive anxiety dream! last night it was very hot & sticky, so i went to lie down (sometime during the night) in our dd's room, which is cooler. when i feel asleep, i dreamed that he'd been having an a since 6 months after we met, so yes, during our whole marriage! in the dream, he was completely full of himself, and wanted us to compete so he could choose! when i woke up, i returned to our room, told him i had a bad dream, and he held me the rest of the night (heat & all).

in the light of day, the details of the dream are ridiculous, of course. but you know that feeling? *the* feeling? it's that sickness i woke up with in the night. it's completely gone now that i'm up and have run my morning errands, and it hasn't left any aftertaste, if YKWIM. but geez, i can really do without those kinds of dreams!
Posted By: Letty calling melody lane - 12/23/12 08:16 PM
i'm shaking as i sit here, chainsmoking.

just checked DS for history over the weekend. while i was making christmas cookies with our dd, [censored] got a message from model mayhem, which he didn't mention and actually checked. it was from a model coming here for the holidays and who wants to do a shoot. he gave out his email address, they emailed - she's staying out at the beach where he's working. he said to ring his cell, and gave that out too. guess what? he's "working" today.

some people might say - so he wants to do a shoot, so what? there's no impropriety in these messages.

[censored] that. he's a lying, cheating sack of [censored] and i am ready for him to be gone. i need some support here so i can stay strong over xmas while gathering even more evidence so i can lay it all out at the lawyer's office when we go in to "update our wills" next month. yes, the will updating is a ruse i am using to get him in there, lay out all the screenshots, and tell him to [censored] off and exactly what i want and how i want it.

my problem is: patience and willpower are not my strong suits. i am the kind of person that would, right now in my bathrobe, get in the car, drive the hour out to this particular beach, and make a massive scene. looking at that sentence makes me sad. i need to be strong. i need to be stealthy. and i need to be able to do it for at least the next 3 weeks, as all businesses basically closed here friday and won't open again until mid-jan. (banks, lawyers, etc.)

[censored], i am sick to my stomach. however, i am going to suck it up, go shower & get beautiful, make a lovely xmas eve dinner, and try to find some valium to stop the shakes.

ps: needless to say, i'm not even coming close to trying to go round the profanity filter on this post!
Posted By: Wonderingif Re: calling melody lane - 12/23/12 08:42 PM
I'm not sure how many people will be on today but I saw your post and wanted to give you support. You can do this. Be your best self, focus on the fact that this is almost over, and know that we are all here for you. I'm praying for stength for you.
Posted By: Letty Re: calling melody lane - 12/23/12 09:08 PM
thank you wondering. it's xmas eve here -typical time to discover this kind of thing. i'm trying to stop spitting "you lying sack of [censored]" out before the kids get back from shopping. and i did just manage a stepfordy wife "what time to do you think you'll be home from work, so i know when to put the turkey in the oven" call.

thanks again. it helped to have someone there!
Posted By: armymama Re: calling melody lane - 12/23/12 09:24 PM
Letty,

I am so, so sorry. I have no advice, but do have hugs for you.

AM
Posted By: Letty Re: calling melody lane - 12/23/12 09:45 PM
thanks, armymama smile santa001 merry christmas to you.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: calling melody lane - 12/23/12 11:07 PM
Oh Letty I am so sorry for what you are going through.

Try to stay calm and strong, gather your evidence and bide your time.

I know the photo shoots with models was one of your EPs, I'm sorry he has broken this and caused you anxiety and pain. I am hoping it is an innocent photo shoot and nothing more.

I have to pick something up for the children and will be back in a couple of hours. You have my details, please ring home, cellphone or email any time.

I am here for you hug
Posted By: Letty Re: calling melody lane - 12/23/12 11:38 PM
thanks happy. as you know, it's not so much the action as the deceit. mad
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: calling melody lane - 12/23/12 11:58 PM
Letty, you have everything in your hands to manage this, and you have many dozens (scores) of colleagues here to buck you up.

This sucks to arise at Christmas, friend. I would just suggest that whatever sanctions you threatened for this type of violation are now in play. If not applied, well,.......
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: calling melody lane - 12/24/12 01:01 AM
Letty, I am so sorry to read this! Is your husband a photographer? I will be in and out this week, but will check in you.
Posted By: Letty Re: calling melody lane - 12/24/12 01:51 AM
thanks guys. interesting turn, so i definitely need the help.

i'm in the kitchen, stuffing the turkey, and H comes home. tells me about his day, then says he's got to tell me something. he then tells me the whole deal - got a message, went to site, sent email, gave phone, and wants to know how i'd feel about him doing a shoot next week. everything jibes with what i saw from my sw. he then even shows me how he didn't delete anything from his accounts (web history, email, etc). huh.

i'm amazed to say i didn't lose my cool. had him hold the turkey open so i could finish stuffing, thanked him for telling me, then pointed out how the right time to tell me would have been from step one. then i said that i would have to think awhile. he is now out xmas shopping (hey, it's only xmas eve, there's still time!). i, otoh, have a clean house, turkey in the oven, desserts made, and only veges to prep. the kids are waiting for me to watch home alone. huh.

i'm confused and don't really know what the next step should be. there's got to be a consequences (three, really, or one big one) and i'm not sure what it should be. frankly, the only thing i ever outlined was that if he ever did anything like this again without telling me, i'd boot his ass. suggestions?

mel - yes, he has shot for magazines/calendars for 20+ years. cars, trucks, bikes. his "regular" job is an electrician, but he's always had a lucrative sideline as a photographer. thanks for checking!

merry christmas everyone! i hope you all have a great day with your loved ones.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: calling melody lane - 12/24/12 03:07 AM
I'm glad to hear he told you about the shoot and showed you all messages etc. I agree he should have told you about this first.

I will defer to the experts to give you the correct advice. I would think given he was O&H about the shoot this counts for something and a discussion re being O&H at the time of event rather than after would be required.

I know it is a slow time with Xmas around the corner, but keep up the good work until you receive "expert advice"

Hang in there ... you are amazing everything ready for your feast, happy and charming all whislt dealing with this. You can do this!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: calling melody lane - 12/24/12 03:12 AM
I'm so sorry Letty.

Is it possible he is spying on you and picked up on your finding out about it?

If he didn't deceive you and voluntarily told the truth, the sanctions don't need to be as harsh imo.

However the ability for people to contact him and the temptation to do a shoot should be eliminated. That whole situation could have come so close to his deciding to lie to you.

And he knows how you feel about it, doesn't he? So why is he asking? Unless he figured out that you knew and was doing a cover job.

I think more snooping is warranted.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: calling melody lane - 12/24/12 03:12 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
thanks guys. interesting turn, so i definitely need the help.

i'm in the kitchen, stuffing the turkey, and H comes home. tells me about his day, then says he's got to tell me something. he then tells me the whole deal - got a message, went to site, sent email, gave phone, and wants to know how i'd feel about him doing a shoot next week. everything jibes with what i saw from my sw. he then even shows me how he didn't delete anything from his accounts (web history, email, etc). huh.

i'm amazed to say i didn't lose my cool. had him hold the turkey open so i could finish stuffing, thanked him for telling me, then pointed out how the right time to tell me would have been from step one. then i said that i would have to think awhile. he is now out xmas shopping (hey, it's only xmas eve, there's still time!). i, otoh, have a clean house, turkey in the oven, desserts made, and only veges to prep. the kids are waiting for me to watch home alone. huh.

i'm confused and don't really know what the next step should be. there's got to be a consequences (three, really, or one big one) and i'm not sure what it should be. frankly, the only thing i ever outlined was that if he ever did anything like this again without telling me, i'd boot his ass. suggestions?

mel - yes, he has shot for magazines/calendars for 20+ years. cars, trucks, bikes. his "regular" job is an electrician, but he's always had a lucrative sideline as a photographer. thanks for checking!

merry christmas everyone! i hope you all have a great day with your loved ones.

So sorry Lefty.

What was your condition if he broke an EP?
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: calling melody lane - 12/24/12 03:01 PM
Letty,

I'm so sorry about all of this. I've been MIA a bit lately - a lot on my plate these days - but when I saw you had a number of posts I wanted to check in on you and am glad you did.

It is good that he fessed up; I wondered the same thing IndieGirl did: was there any way he could've known you'd found out?

I'm amazed how well you handled yourself. I'm pretty sure I would have flown off the handle and I have to say - I'm not sure it would have been uncalled for. You really do have to preserve the line of respect in your marriage and what he did really crossed that line! I'm not saying it would have been good to go off on him at that moment but I think he should have felt a little bit of righteous indignation there! He KNOWS that all of that was against your marriage code! He was throwing your relationship in harms way and that DESERVES a negative reaction!

Of course, you have to balance that with the "thank you for telling me the truth" part of all of this as well.

I think you ought to have him take a couple of hours to go write on the EP list he was supposed to stick to and the reasons why they are EPs. Then he ought to list what feelings not sticking to those EPs arouse in Letty and how he feels about that. That's for starters!

You're a tough woman: you can handle this!!! So sorry about your ruined Christmas Eve though.
Posted By: Letty Re: calling melody lane - 12/25/12 01:24 AM
thanks ladies. i too wondered if he knew i knew. but...i can't figure out how. he did go to work - boss picked him up and dropped him off and he was home at the right time, and i had the computer. he'd have to be a LOT more tech savvy than he is to be able to do that remotely. he doesn't have a smartphone, and there's no electricity at his work (beach house in the middle of nowhere - no phone service; he's putting in the electrical). frankly, the only way he *could* have known was if my dd told him i was upset. i cornered her, asked her point blank if she told dad i was upset in the morning, and she swore she hadn't spoken to him, voice or text) all morning. she doesn't know the details, only that i was upset. he did tell me as soon as he got home - no computer use. normally i am a great big pessimist, but i cannot see how he could know - i told no one except you all here. he doesn't even know that i hang out here; i cover it up with imgur, lol. (IB??)

now, could he have gone somewhere else? well, theoretically, he could, of course. anyone can do anything if they put their mind to it. but it's not really plausible. there'd have to be a LOT more going on to make that the case, and i don't think it is that, really, in context of how things have been. there's been no other red flags in behaviour, and nothing on his computer or phone up till now. but i am disappointed in him.

my conditions in EPs was that i would leave. so i'm kinda stuck.

anyhow, the kids & man are putting together our picnic lunch, so i'd better scoot off. thanks for checking in, and enjoy your lovely day off.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: calling melody lane - 12/26/12 05:39 AM
From what you'd said in the past (not so techno/computer savvy) I didn't consider he may have known just thought he was being honest after the fact.

How was your picnic? Wasn't it hoottt Christmas Day! I'm enjoying the cool change this evening and relaxing, hope your enjoying Boxing Day. Is DD staying for a few days or returning home?
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: calling melody lane - 12/26/12 05:38 PM
Yeah, it doesn't seem likely he knew you knew now that you spell it out like that. So, given that....he obviously knew he'd done wrong. SO, it then follows that he should not have asked you if he could do the job next week! He should have known better!

SO, your consequence was that it was over if he crossed those EP boundaries. He did...but then he fessed up. SO...I don't think it looks weak if you don't stick to "over" as the consequence. But, there should be a serious discussion about where his mind was at, what on earth made him think that would be ok...and as I said earlier... I think I'd make it so he needed to do a bit of soul searching over this.
Posted By: Letty Re: calling melody lane - 12/27/12 01:55 AM
i've thought of nothing for the last 4 days. dd & bf just left to go home. we've got a car drive tomorrow and 2 days at the drags (oh joy), with nothing to do but talk. i know, as a teacher, i have a tendency to lecture, and/or explicate too much, so i'll have to be careful, and careful not to AO. there's been nothing else on the sw since xmas eve (our time).

here's what i've considered:

1. ending it. i cannot see keeping going where i will never feel safe. may as well nip it in the bud. print out our agreement, all my screen shots & keylog, and meet at the lawyer's office & lay out my D terms. he moves out.

2. plan b: i'll move out; this way, i'm not disrupted again when the inevitable D is done. we divest all property/assets through the lawyer's office; i just simply walk away. i've certainly done my bit, and then some.

3. we stay together, but he must make the M a safe place for me. how will this happen? what are the practicalities? i thought i had this done already. (random thoughts: i don't want to D, but sometimes i think he got broken 6 years ago and will never be the same. consequently, i never *will* feel safe.) need to think of serious enough consequence that covers the failure, but encourages the M.

4. plan c. we stay together, the most recent breach is never brought up again, and i continue to be in low-alert panic mode, not committed to making things work, but not leaving either. i either suffer, or we end up in D 2-3 years down the road. either way, a lose-lose proposition.

needless to say, #3 is my preference, but i'm not going to lead this. i am not going to keep pushing the recovery wagon. i have a good job. i am, thanks to MB and the support here, in a good place mentally to be able to leave without the massive heartache the original a and the random detritus since then have caused. it'll suck massive dog's balls, but it *can* be done.

consequences i've considered:

1. no computer whatsoever
2. computer ok for car stuff, ebay and the like, but everything else blocked.
3. cutting his balls off.

ok, i'm only semi-serious on that last one. i think.

thoughts?
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: calling melody lane - 12/27/12 04:01 AM
rotflmao consequence 3 would certainly be classified as serious... good to see you still have your sense of humour.

You've considered your options and identified what you really want. The next few days gives you an opportunity to talk with H and see if he is on board and willing to accept consequences.

On a postive he was honest even though it was after the event. He was however aware of how you felt and it is disappointing he had to ask how you felt ...maybe he thought you would be ok if he brought it to your attention.

Whatever you decide you will have lots of support my friend.

I just sent you an email before posting on your thread.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: calling melody lane - 12/27/12 04:40 AM
Would certainly help to know where his mindset was during all of this: why he did it...did he think twice about it, etc...

I think an honest assessment of what MB work has been put in lately has to be considered as well. How has UA time been? Have needs been met? It's easy to slack off the "work" after you've been in recovery for awhile, thinking you've reached the goal of a recovered marriage. Once the big threat is over with and you go back to a sense of normality, sometimes it's easy to slip into old habits. Of course, as we all know - with MB you're supposed to have made new habits to replace the old ones. I just know that I catch myself, at times, slipping into an old comfort zone and having to smack myself.

You've got to have a real conversation about this - radical honesty - about where his mind was and why he did this. That's the only way you can make a good decision.

But I agree: HE needs to drive this bus.

No lectures, I say, just a firm stance in what you will and won't accept in your marriage. Tell him how you feel violated and how hurt you are. There's a big difference between a lecture and a reckoning...ya know???? This should not be a conversation where he "knows he's in the doghouse and nodding along to get out" but one of heartfelt seriousness. You need to use "I" statements and tell him exactly how you feel as rationally and calmy as possible.

You're definitely better off ending it than with option #4, but don't use ending it as any kind of threat to get him to fall in line. Don't say it if you don't mean it! That's the most dangerous thing of all to do.
Posted By: unwritten Re: calling melody lane - 12/28/12 02:30 AM
So sorry Letty you had to have your Christmas dampened with drama.

I knew there was crisis when I saw the [bleep] [bleep] and a [bleep] coming from my screen. I thought, now this is unlike Miss Letty!

There seems to be a breakdown in his true understanding of how damaging such errs in judgement can be. Sometimes I think that when we post all the time on this forum, marriage building is front and center on our minds. But for our WS who don't post, once things go back to 'normalish' they start to forget about the devastation and start to disengage from being ultra protective of the M.

Would your WH ever post on here? I never required that of my H, but I have recently started to think about it for this very reason. Not because he has done anything suspicious, but just to prevent him from getting comfortable before we have INGRAINED MB in our beings. I think reading and posting everyday is def ingraining and has done wonders for me, but I think the indoctrination has not fully happened for him.
Posted By: Letty Re: calling melody lane - 12/30/12 09:00 PM
hi again. we were out of town for a couple of days, at the drag races.

ok, i am taking your advice about it being more of a stumbling block during recovery rather than a deal-breaker. however, i'm experiencing a bit of a problem with myself: i just feel cold, like a numbness, but not exactly numb, but distant, withdrawn, separate.

i spent saturday looking at houses to rent and drawing up my D terms. i was pleased to see that i could rent something in my area on my salary alone.

i do not feel connected to H right now, though he has listened to me, responded about his feelings, etc. i feel like i can walk out at any time and that would be just fine. i guess i've put the emotional distance back in to protect myself - just as i was coming to 100% commitment to the M and to him. now i am at...i dunno, maybe 5%? tops?

i am worried that my LB$ has overdrawn (and so quickly) and that i no longer wish to work on recovery, but am formulating a plan to leave in my mind. it scares me that i'm taking steps to be able to do so. i don't understand how things could have been going so well, and now we are here.

unwritten wrote on MSSs thread: what happens if/when the BS cannot get over it? that's exactly what i've always wondered. i have often wondered if after 2 years i would just say [censored] it. maybe i will never be over it, in which case, going through the recovery motion is just a waste of time, while i get older every day. the funny thing is, though, is that it's not really the original a that's on my mind, but the lying and not making the M a safe place for me/us that has happened over the years.

eh, i'm just rambling now. i've got to get off my duff, go to the gym, then wash the windows. we are going to the fireworks show tonight, if i can stay awake that long. was hoping to go kayaking today, but it's too windy. bah.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: calling melody lane - 12/30/12 09:18 PM
Letty, you've taken a huge hit to your love bank with no deposits. It's no wonder you are feeling as you are. It's up to your H to make those deposits to get the account back in the black again. Does he understand this?

What UW said to MSS, etc... It all comes down to this: THE MB principle for recovery is that the marriage MUST be BETTER when all is said and done and if it is not, recovery CANNOT occur. Time and time again when we see where one party is fully vested and trying to carry the load, resentment lingers and love banks are busted. Your H has gone along with the program, but he does not seem to have embraced the mindset - and that's THE most single thing, I feel, to full recovery.

It isn't that ever single thing has to be perfect in recovery; most of us make mistakes. The mistakes that are easily overcome, however, are those that are accidental or just dumb. The harder ones are those that, as you have described, make the FBS feel unsafe: the ones that send the message that the FWS does not understand that he or she must ensure marital protection above, beyond, and before anything else. It's especially true when the wife is the FBS and the H is the FWS because it's a man's primary role to be the protector in the first place. When a man does not do that, he loses some respect of his wife - which leads to a lower account balance, etc...

That's what I'm reading into all you have said in your last post: your H NEEDS to earn your respect back and his balance with you will go up. You cannot be in love with a man you do not respect. It's that simple.

You didn't give a lot of specifics as to your discussion with him over this incident. Are there consequences? Are there specific actions you have given him to build your love bank back up? Have you been Radically Honest with him about where you are right now???
Posted By: Letty Re: calling melody lane - 12/31/12 02:41 AM
no, sunny, i haven't given a lot of specifics, yet, because it's still ongoing. i haven't yet thought of a suitable consequence, though i came up with one today while in my hellhole, excuse me, bathroom (the place where i have, in the past, spent hours upon hours sobbing). i think maybe our upcoming tax return should go into my account in the usa, so that i can fund a 6-week trip to reno for a quickie divorce should the need arise (screw this nz 2 year bs). that money should remain there for a period of 18 months, unless i decide it can be moved earlier. how does that sound?

have i been radically honest? i have thought about this for several hours now, and i have to say no. i am back on the roller coaster. when i am decisive (and thinking about what i need to do to leave), i feel good, powerful. but when i consider the fact that his behaviour shows a lack of care for me, which = not loving me, i crumple like a used tissue. i cannot see having a reasonable conversation without tears at this point in time. i'm working on it. feeling this way makes me madder than i already am, so i'm not doing my best communication at the mo; consequently, avoiding it. i am, however, working on revised ENs with specific actions.
Posted By: Letty Re: calling melody lane - 12/31/12 10:54 PM
new day. happy new year everyone!

last night, H opened a discussion on what has been going on. i took your advice, and was radically honest, but in a way that didn't divulge anger or contempt; i kept it simple and to the point. i cannot tell you how proud i am of how i have handled myself over the last week. in the past, i would have been off like a shot, AO-city, and made an even bigger mess of everything!

we ended up having a really good conversation (he actually talked!). i did set the consequence of our tax return going into my own bank account for a period of 18 months, specifically so i could walk out the door, and he was agreeable. thank goodness we actually have to file taxes - a regular person with a wage job doesn't have to here, but we run two businesses from home. we have discussed his thinking process (or lack thereof), and sunny, thanks for that mention of the man as the head of the household/caretaker. while H is an atheist, i was able to appeal to his masculinity, reminding him that as a husband and father, he has a fiduciary responsibility to me that cannot be shirked. i could see a light go on there. H is very literal, so i can't use metaphors or analogies - straight talk is the way to go.

non-sequitor (sp): one thing that has always repulsed me about certain men - you know the ones, that show up on sally jesse or jenny - who claim to be godly, and king of the castle, but then who treat their families like crap, and their wives like slaves, and don't even work! i never could understand how they could reasonably manipulate their beliefs to give them all the cake and none of the responsibility of being head of the household!

back to topic: we then popped the cork on a non-alcoholic champagne and toasted the new year. this morning we have done a couple hours gardening, then we have to get ready for an early start back to the drag races tomorrow. i am just so happy the weather is cooperating, with cloud cover and not-too-warm temps, especially as the news had predicted 29 and full sun (that's not horribly hot [84F], but we're talking 84% humidity according to metservice, which this so-cal high desert girl just can't function in). i wish H was competing this year so i could cheer him on, but his photographs have been excellent. he has a press pass and shoots from the start line. some american fuel nostalgia (i have no idea what that means, but the power of their cars are mind-blowing) drivers are here, so it's pretty exciting, even to someone like me with little interest in such things.

thanks for being there to help me through this, and even more, to help me do it right in a way that will help the M, rather than tear it apart.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: calling melody lane - 12/31/12 10:58 PM
So happy for you Letty, that your dip in the roller coaster wasn't down for too long.
happynewyr friend.

Posted By: Letty Re: calling melody lane - 12/31/12 11:29 PM
happynewyr to you too, my friend.

i just realised i didn't answer unwritten's Q. no, i don't think my H will post here. i asked him about it a long time ago, and he was adamant he would not. it's too bad, because the male posters that help the men here would be really helpful for him. he's not a reader, though, and i can't see him getting through the posts. just seeing one of the basic concepts pages would make his head pop off. his typing skills are also atrocious :P

in response to another Q: no, i don't think he really "gets" it, despite the coaching with SH, and his browsing of the MB vids, and our reading of SAA and HNHN. but i'm hoping he will, eventually.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: calling melody lane - 01/01/13 02:05 AM
Good job, Letty! hug
Posted By: Letty Re: calling melody lane - 01/01/13 09:44 PM
thanks mel. it was a harrowing week, but i can see more clearly now. there is no smooth path, and as we're both human, mistakes will be made. :sigh: a work in progress...
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: calling melody lane - 01/02/13 03:17 PM
I agree...you did a GREAT job!!! Sorry I've been MIA the last few days. I'm really proud of you for being RH. I know how difficult that can be. It's hard to sort out anger and allowing yourself to be vulnerable...trying to keep it all together, etc...

I would have to say that RH is THE #1 thing that has changed in my marriage since recovery. Once it finally got through to Mr. Sunny and I that honesty was more important than being right or anything else, it was relationship changing. It's important that you do it with good communication skills if possible, but still better to make those mistakes and be RH than to be dishonest, trying to say all the right things. Our "care level" for each other has skyrocketed through learning this.

My H tends to be very literal too - so I completely understand that: sometimes TOO literal! Appealing to his masculinity is definitely the right way to go. And I totally agree about the talk-show type males you mentioned... that is NOT godly by any means! I grew up with a dad who is exactly opposite: still works harder than anyone I know, humble as the day is long, and never raised his voice to me - didn't have to. I have no respect for men like you describe. I doubt many do.

Good for you for setting consequences. As for Mr. Letty "getting it" you just need to keep plugging away at letting him know exactly what you need when you need it. Also, let him know why - it helps. I mean, it's enough for him to know you need it and therefore to want to meet those needs, but I've found if I can make H understand why, it helps him with the whole mindset thing. The deeper you go in understanding each other, the more you care about one other. You start naturally putting yourself in the other's shoes which makes it easier to meet each others needs and avoid lovebusters.

We start out on this MB journey learning to check off lists but ultimately, it's deeper intimacy you're striving towards.
Posted By: Letty Re: calling melody lane - 01/06/13 11:46 PM
i've been posting so much on other threads that i've quite forgotten about my own!

i hate to say it, but this recent hiccup may be the best thing that's happened recently. it's really helped clarify things, and i'm working at being much more O&H with I statements (I feel xxx because I think...). avoiding totally the "you make me" rubbish that is so easy to turn to. and, surprisingly, i'm getting much more O&H in return than i have ever received. i belief my responses to O&H have helped him become more so (no getting frustrated, trying to educate, etc). i think sometimes i make my own problems! he has been very forthcoming, more and more after i have not gotten angry (nothing to be angry over, though!).

we've had a lovely week since i last posted. went to the orchard and picked our own strawberries. cooked together. discussed our dd and her sitch together. basically, have been working together as a team. so much more pleasant. today i am feeling particularly loved up. we are both looking forward to our south island trip in two weeks time.

omgosh, our mailman just about made me jump out of my skin! he can't see me here on the patio, and he just let out the biggest man-like yawn! lol, i giggled to myself after i realised he wasn't a zombie looking for lunch! (OWRRRAAAHHHHHRRRRR!)

now that my adrenaline is up, i'm off to do some housework and get dinner prepped for later. i've been sitting here for about 3 hours, which has been lovely, but one can't be a patio-potato all day. and i want to look pretty for a photo later smile
Posted By: Letty Re: calling melody lane - 01/06/13 11:48 PM
am having a small MB-related crisis: have dropped my favourite bottle of nail polish and shattered it all over the driveway! i think OPI has discontinued this colour frown
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: calling melody lane - 01/07/13 08:34 PM
I hate when my faves get discontinued!!
&#128545;

I'm glad your setback has served a purpose, Letty. Like I said, the RH (o&h) has been extremely important in recovery to me. Nothing else deepens the intimacy level like it does. Hate you had to go through such a valley but sounds like it was a needed lesson!
Posted By: Letty Re: calling melody lane - 01/08/13 08:12 PM
i'm feeling good today sunny, but i know my comment won't sound like it!

sigh when do all the lessons stop being for ME and start working for HIM?

lol. i know. keep plugging! how's your sitch going? are you back at school? i've got 2 more weeks, which doesn't seem long enough with all the work i have to do. i'm currently creating a 5 year writing programme (all 5 years of high school). the nz curriculum doesn't explicitly teach writing, yet to achieve excellence, they need to be able to write well. since it's not a focal point, very little time is devoted to it. i plan to remedy that, at least in my own classes, though the programme will be published to the whole dept.

i'm also teaching quentin tarantino film techniques to my year 13s this year (film, or "visual text" is a big part of the english curriculum). i have to sit down with reservoir dogs and pulp fiction and start capturing the stills and video clips i want to use as teaching points. i am excited that django unchained will be out when school starts, but i'm guessing it'll probably be R18, and i don't know how many of my students will be 18 at the start of the year. probably not many frown i'm going to try to get the theatre to give me a private showing (they're good at this) if they all have permission slips (it *might* work). ooo, i just checked IMDB, and they've got australia listed at MA+15. however, they are sometimes incorrect. the uk has it at 18. i guess i'll have to wait and see!

yes, this is a far cry from having my students (in the usa) read dangerous liaisons and see the play, but when in rome and all that! last year i taught seasons 1 and 2 of the walking dead. that was a real treat for me smile usually i let the students pick what to study, but since the year 13 curriculum is new this year, i'm going with what i want to do that i think will interest them too.

ack, i'd better stop running off at the mouth and get my butt in gear if i'm to hit this gym this morning! hope your 2013 is going well thus far!
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: calling melody lane - 01/09/13 12:52 AM
reservoir dogs and pulp fiction

What? No Bordello of Blood, or Inglorious Basterds?

Folks, can anyone here in the USA imagine how loud would be the HOWL from the blue-hairs if Quentin Tarantino's works formed the basis of a curriculum for high-school students?
Posted By: Letty Re: calling melody lane - 01/09/13 01:53 AM
well, it's not like i didn't consider grindhouse, lol. laugh i haven't yet seen inglorious [censored].

yes, kiwi folk are much more relaxed about these things. though it does make my hair stand on end when my younger students regularly get to watch the crap on mtv (ugh) and other adult fare like sons of anarchy, nip/tuck, and, shudder, californication. all of these are on free-to-air tv, unedited. (gack, even things like 2-1/2 men airs at 7.30!) sons is a favourite of mine, but my own dd wasn't allowed such things until she was 18. sometimes i feel like the only one who remembers the major kerfluffle over sharon gless and a certain word...i feel like a real oldie when i hear some of the stuff on usa network tv these days.

on a side note, i'm introducing my H to breaking bad this weekend. i watched it on netflex over there last year, and finally broke down and got the dvds.

and on a super-side-note: i am in the middle of watching hope springs. has anyone else seen it?
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: calling melody lane - 01/09/13 03:05 PM
Wow .... What an interesting class yours must be!

I haven't watched any of those shows so I can't comment much. I don't really like blood and guts or dark stuff much. I much prefer fantasy over realism! Lol. I will confess to being a bit of a nerd though: love Lord of the Rings and stuff like that! I like happy endings - and Disney movies., lol.

I start classes next Monday. Should be an interesting semester. Taking Geology, Astronomy, and Psychology of Adjustment. I was thinking of adding a 4th class but with 2 sciences/labs I don't think I am.

Have loved my time off bit it's time to get back to the grind!

Our 22nd anniversary is Saturday! Can't wait!
Posted By: Letty Re: calling melody lane - 01/09/13 08:44 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Wow .... What an interesting class yours must be!

I haven't watched any of those shows so I can't comment much. I don't really like blood and guts or dark stuff much. I much prefer fantasy over realism! Lol. I will confess to being a bit of a nerd though: love Lord of the Rings and stuff like that! I like happy endings - and Disney movies., lol.

I start classes next Monday. Should be an interesting semester. Taking Geology, Astronomy, and Psychology of Adjustment. I was thinking of adding a 4th class but with 2 sciences/labs I don't think I am.

Have loved my time off bit it's time to get back to the grind!

Our 22nd anniversary is Saturday! Can't wait!


(i feel like arnold horseshack,lol) ooo, ooo, sunny, what are you plans for the big day?

you must be very good at maths & science. i remember taking astronomy for a general elective a long (long) time ago (in a galaxy far, far away, haha). i had to drop the class when:

we spent the majority of the time learning about the planets, stars, and especially the moon. so imagine my astonishment when the questions on the first exam were like this one: if you are at xxx longitude and xxx latitude, what time is is in ethopia? WTH?

on a side note, i follow the ISS on twitter, and it tweets me every day when it's going to go past nz. H and i go out and have a look most of the time!

sunny, have you read the song of ice and fire? i'm not a fantasy girl, but i really enjoyed the series (except the last one). i also love the tv show, which sticks very close to the books.

needless to say, LOTR and the hobbit are huge here. i can't understand why, since peter jackson screwed over every worker in the country to make the three hobbit films. in case you haven't heard, he showed up down here with a couple of guys from sony (sony? i think sony), and the three of them met with the prime minister. in a matter of days, they had changed employment law! it now stands that employees aren't protected, and the studios make out like bandits. as if their millions of dollars tax breaks aren't enough. seriously? talk about forgetting where you come from! he's on my crap-list, lol. for once, (kiwis tend to be apathetic) a whole bunch of people, lead by some big kiwi name actors, protested at parliament, but our PM is a teflon money man who does what he wants at the expense of everyone (in every way).

i finished watching hope springs yesterday. i feel a little shystered - the adverts showed it as a comedy, but there was little (if any) comic relief. it was really sad, but had a happy ending. i liked the soundtrack though! the last song was one of my favourite lenny kravitz tunes: it ain't over. they also used that haunting annie lennox song, why, and marvin gaye's let's stay together.

in the extras, the director talked about how the actors had such a range, it was hard for him to choose what take to use in the final film. he then played some scenes with several takes, where the dialogue is spoken differently every time. i promptly copied that bit, because it will be a good teaching tool!

just fyi for anyone seeing it: there is no infidelity. it is "safe" to watch w/your spouse. be prepared for tears, though! one of the things i liked about it is that is showed how both of them played a part in the breakdown of the marriage.

well, it's so bloody hot here today, i'm going to hit the gym and then just try to find a cool spot to vegetate. it was soooo hot last night, and with no a/c, it was so hard to sleep. between the heat and the darn curtains flapping (heavy winds, which kick up my allergies), i hardly slept at all, and then i started with the nose and a cough. i finally got up and read at 4am, then went into a light sleep from 6-8. thank goodness it's not a school day. i can't imagine trying to wrangle a roomful of boys with a head fulla snot and exhaustion! there'll be plenty of time for that in february, when i'm stuck in a 15x15 room with 27 nearly grown men and no a/c!

oh, thanks. i like to think my classes are interesting! i do try to meet both needs: interesting and fun for me, interesting and valuable for the students. at the end of last year, our headmaster told me that he was walking across the field behind two maori boys, and one said "what do you have next?" the other said "english. i've got mrs letty, so it's pretty good." that was high praise indeed! (maori are the native people in nz. they only make up 15% of the total population, but have a horrendously oversized failure rate. i've been participating in a maori outreach programme for 3 years that integrates maori-based teaching principles. i'm pleased to see some results, even if they are anecdotal!)
Posted By: Letty Re: calling melody lane - 01/10/13 09:05 PM
(this is more of a bloggy post)

today we are getting a bit of a break from the heat with some cloud cover. it's still hot though - was 26/82 at 8.30am. i think it might still be too hot to do any baking frown i bought vanilla ice cream last weekend to make ice cream cookie sandwiches, but it's been too hot to make the cookies. (no, i won't get store-bought cookies.)

last night after the sun went down it really cooled off and we were able to get a good night's sleep. today i am going over to a few canvas places in the industrial park to see about getting a sun shade sail made for our bedroom patio. our new neighbour's new house/patio looks right into our bedroom, which is making sleeping with the patio doors open a bit more voyeuristic than i like! what would i give to have a/c! or rather, the ability to pay the power bill if we had a/c. our last two bills have been over $400/month frown

i am so geared up for our dunedin trip. yeseterday i rented a car, and we're planning places to visit, though i want to spend one day just on the beach. we are staying at this very romantic hotel.

we're going to check out the cadbury factory, tunnel beach, the wall street mall, for Hs shopping needs; he's a shopper, and the otago peninsula, which, apparently, CNN has named as one of the 10 most romantic spots in the world.

whoops, hit submit rather than preview! i guess i'd better get off my duff. my kitty is having a cocktail hour of cicadas. gross.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: calling melody lane - 01/10/13 09:21 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
(this is more of a bloggy post)

today we are getting a bit of a break from the heat with some cloud cover. it's still hot though - was 26/82 at 8.30am. i think it might still be too hot to do any baking frown i bought vanilla ice cream last weekend to make ice cream cookie sandwiches, but it's been too hot to make the cookies. (no, i won't get store-bought cookies.)

last night after the sun went down it really cooled off and we were able to get a good night's sleep. today i am going over to a few canvas places in the industrial park to see about getting a sun shade sail made for our bedroom patio. our new neighbour's new house/patio looks right into our bedroom, which is making sleeping with the patio doors open a bit more voyeuristic than i like! what would i give to have a/c! or rather, the ability to pay the power bill if we had a/c. our last two bills have been over $400/month frown

i am so geared up for our dunedin trip. yeseterday i rented a car, and we're planning places to visit, though i want to spend one day just on the beach. we are staying at this very romantic hotel.

we're going to check out the cadbury factory, tunnel beach, the wall street mall, for Hs shopping needs; he's a shopper, and the otago peninsula, which, apparently, CNN has named as one of the 10 most romantic spots in the world.

whoops, hit submit rather than preview! i guess i'd better get off my duff. my kitty is having a cocktail hour of cicadas. gross.


I don't do store bought cookies either. I have my favorite recipe for our favorite cookie and if I can't have that, nothing else will do.

I love your idea of the canvas sun shade for your patio door to your bedroom. A/C is such a wonderful luxury, but when we lived in southern CA, we made do most often with ceiling fans because of the high energy costs. Cool showers just before bedtime help a little. Now that we live in TX, the summers are hot hot hot: 102* in the daytime at the peak, and about 85* at night, we breathe a sigh of relief that we have A/C.

Enjoy your trip. Safe travels and lots of love bank deposits wished for both of you.
Posted By: Letty cookies... - 01/10/13 10:21 PM
lol, having been brought up in gorgeous southern california, and having spent most of my life there (mostly in palm springs and los angeles), i had never lived in a house without central air/heat! here, houses here are typically not insulated, so it's freezing in the winter and steaming in the summer. and damp at all times. having bought a spa pool last year has helped a bit. hot in the winter, cool in the summer. yesterday, it was so hot that i french braided my hair right out of the shower. later, when it was all dry, i was horrified to see that i had a mini-afro going with the frizz! i simply cannot do humidity.

i'm still thinking about the cookies. it's 11am now, and not too bad with a breeze. i might pop some in the oven when i make dinner tonight, since i'll have to stove going for risotto. but for dessert tonight i'm making this sorbet & raspberry dessert, so the ice cream cookies will at least have time to freeze.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: cookies... - 01/11/13 12:07 AM
I never buy store bought.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: cookies... - 01/11/13 07:41 PM
That's crazy about Peter Jackson, Letty! I had no idea. Not nice of him! frown

Sorry I haven't responded sooner. My computer is on the fritz and I'm having to use my phone or H's when he gets home. I don't type very fast on my phone and have been pretty busy the last few evenings.

I'm glad to hear things are going so much better for you this week!!!

And I never buy store bought either! Yuck! lol
Posted By: Letty Re: cookies... - 01/19/13 07:57 PM
i finally got the cookies baked for ice cream sandwiches. the weather really cooled off, so i also made 2 batches of blueberry bran muffins, orange-cranberry bran muffins, banana bread, and scones. i froze everything but the scones for when school starts again. we ate the scones that afternoon smile i make cheesy ones for him, and whole wheat ones for me. i cheat a bit, using low-sugar preserves on mine.

this will probably be my last post for a bit. we leave for dunedin in 2 days, and i am sooooo excited! i asked my twitter followers for romantic dinner suggestions, and 100% replied platos. i've made a reservation for a patio table overlooking the beach. my only hope is that the bed in our romantic (but expensive) hotel room be comfortable. i'm so over staying in places where i wake up more sore than i was when i went to bed! my spine can't take much more. reminder: book osteopath appt!

i've been thinking a lot about PA. my H doesn't rate PA too high (middle) on ENs, but i think it's perhaps higher than that? i take good care of myself most of the time, but i think i could be fitter. i have been dedicated to going to the gym 3x/week and have been working quite hard. i met with a trainer at the gym last week. it was a young guy who didn't look a day over 16! he asked what i wanted to work on, and i said i wanted enough upper body strength to be able to protect myself in the zombie apocalypse, lol. i can already see the changes in my arms (and feel it, too).

but when it comes to clothes, i struggle. i know H is attracted to the more, erm, freer looking type of dress. however, as a teacher in a small town, going out in short skirts sans undies is not an option. i also hate (hate!) g-strings. i'm much more the librarian type than the stripper type. that doesn't mean to say i don't dress to look nice, i just don't dress like pamela anderson! also, he loves boobs, which i have an abundance of (i'd like a reduction - crazyman says the only knife that goes there will be for an enlargement! at an E/F cup, that's NOT GONNA HAPPEN). however, he likes them on display, and as someone who's struggled with large breasts from my early teenage years, i am NOT comfortable with that at all. i am, however, working to get slouching under control. i'm happy to wear anything in the bedroom, just not out. i think we need to poja some attire, and i'm going to start by taking him lingere shopping in dunedin. he did buy me that lovely dress for my bday, and i wore it to the xmas party without pinning the top closed higher up than it's cut smile

i think i have great legs, and i love shorts. as a classic apple, i have to work hard to keep the waistline in check (it's true, after 40 you have to work harder). i love belts! but the boobs can make you look fat in a lot of clothes, especially as my lower half is significantly smaller than my upper half. i buy everything in in two pieces, w/a v-neck w/buttons down the front, no frills! i would so love a reduction, but i've seen that surgery, and don't think i would do it anyway. last year, i found a great bra - wacoal. they make a great minimizer that i highly recommend to you other big breasted ladies. i look way better in clothes now, though they do inhibit low-cut tops. (hollywood tape is the way to go.)

and i guess that's all my thoughts for now. things here are going really well, and i'm feeling really good - better than ever, really, about our M. RH and UA are coming along nicely, and i'm very pleased with Hs progress in the RH and affection areas (and my own in RH - it's getting easier). now, i'm off to do some more research about subversive use of music in reservoir dogs smile
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: cookies... - 01/19/13 08:45 PM
Letty,

you made me hungry in the first part of your post and then very hopeful for your trip away together, that supper on the beach sounds heavenly.
you use those beautiful legs of yours, there are a lot of ways to look sexy, look right into his eyes, little touches, be flirty.....
how could he resist......
have fun girlie!!!
can't wait to hear the update, I'm such a sucker for romance
Posted By: Logans_Run Re: cookies... - 01/19/13 08:48 PM
Have you looked at Lane Bryant Cacique line? They have some really great choices for larger breasted woman that offer great support. I started shopping there when Victoria's Secret only went to a D cup, but I still wanted something pretty, sexy, but still offered the support you need. By the way, it is just not a fat lady store. smile
Posted By: Letty Re: cookies... - 02/23/13 10:02 PM
it's been a while. school starts and i fall into the black hole of work! 3 weeks in, and i've already spent a whole sunday working, as well as going in later today. between extra-curricular and administration, i barely have time to plan/mark! but my goal for this year is to come home at 4 no matter what. (what that means is i go in earlier.)

people think that teachers have it easy. that we work banker's hours and get lots of holidays. nothing could be further from the truth. i teach a university-level scholarship class at 7am that i am not paid for. i have three extra-curricular groups that i see lunchtimes (also not paid for). our school day runs from 8.30 - 3, and i am at school from 7-4 (sometimes later if there's meetings), without a lunch break 4 days a week (on fridays i go OUT!). my holidays are spent attending professional conferences and/or designing new units and/or national marking panels. then there's the night-time stuff - parent/teacher conference night, meet the teacher night, shakespeare festival night...have i mentioned that the govt contracted with an overseas payroll company, and nationwide teachers have been overpaid (a few), underpaid (lots, like me) or not paid at all for the last 6 months? that's no BS - just google nz & novopay. thanks for nothing, nopay. that's right - in a recession, our govt paid $10M to move our payroll system to an overseas company, when the local company worked just fine the way it was. way to go!

ok, i think i've got that off my chest!

our holiday was wonderful and we had a great time. the restaurant was not what we expected, but the food was good. H didn't enjoy the cadbury factory, but loved the train trip. we drove round the peninsula and visited larnach castle. very sad story there (about the larnachs). did some shopping at Lush, my fave bath shop. the hotel was wonderful!

i'm pleased to say that things are going very well, and i'm feeling really good about our M, not plagued with doubts like in the past. i'm even starting to feel really good about doing things to surprise him. does that sound odd? what i mean is that before, i guess i was resentful, and doing special things for H seemed a real chore. but now, i *want* to do special things for him. i am happy with this new feeling. this year for valentine's day i thought we'd do a male version. instead of the usual fancy dinner at a restaurant i like, we had junk food and went to see the latest die hard movie! we had a good time.

UA time is going good. it seems a lot more natural now, not forced. and he hasn't wanted to spend time away at drag racing, so my fears there were unfounded. all in all, i have no complaints, can you believe it?

jessi, i bought a new dress (a dress!) to wear for dinner. it was low-cut and i didn't pin in like i normally would smile also wore strappy heels that showed off the legs.

logan, i am familiar with LB. i have some LB tops, but not bras.

good news! we are going to meet my family in hawaii this year for xmas! and, since we are going that far, H said we may as well pop over to LA as well! needless to say, that met with super-enthusiastic agreement! we are taking DD with us to HI so she can spend time with grandparents, then will go to LA & vegas on our own. buying the airfare really sucks, because it's twice as much due to the holidays, but i'm so glad we're going! i love having something to look forward to, and a big trip like this makes the year simply fly by.

well, that's the news from this end of the globe. i hope you all are actively working the recovery programme. it will get you there. once, i thought that after 2 years we'd D anyhow. now, i can see that with time and effort, you can truly rebuild. keep up the hard work!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: cookies... - 02/25/13 02:29 PM
Glad to hear things are going well, Letty! Sounds like a fabulous little vacation and an even bigger one to look forward to for Christmas. smile

You're right about teachers. I suppose it all depends on where you teach but I doubt anywhere you go any are paid what they should be or treated as they should be. Crazy.
Posted By: Letty Re: cookies... - 03/09/13 04:51 AM
thanks sunny. recovering is going well, thanks to the MB programme. if it weren't for MB, i think that we would have ended up as one of those stats where the M defaults back to the pre-a state, then withers, dies, and results in d.

that is not to say that recovery is easy - it is hard even for the bs. affair aside, facing up to our side of the street and making changes so that the M comes first and is benefited isn't easy. how many times have i been resentful of not having my time to myself, not doing what *i* want to do on my own, resentful, even, of spending time with my H? but, i collected myself and committed to recovery - not 75%, not with a contingency plan, but 100%. and that's when recovery really started to work for us.

all my life i thought that whole "if you treat him this way, he will treat you that way" was a bunch of bull pucky. that's because i went into that scenario with resentment and greedy expectations. but when you are able to give freely, it turns out that the other person will also give freely. seriously! i honestly did think that was a load of crap - it's not!

a very simple example. i once heard someone say that a goodbye/hello kiss should never be a peck. it should last at least 7 seconds to be meaningful (remember, we MBers are trying to build/maintain romantic love). now, the old me would have presented this in the least attractive way: "you never kiss me the way i like." or "that's it? why even bother?" (geez, i was kinda a witch, eh? no wonder i never got what i wanted. duh.) but, knowing about MB and wanting "added value" to my M, when i said, "when you come home, i would love it if you would kiss me like this (sample kiss)," i ended up with a husband who kisses me the way i (and apparently, he) likes, every time!

and what i'm really appreciating is the increase in affection. H has never been particularly affectionate, which we all know is a top EN for women. well, now he holds my hand all the time, kisses me - willingly! - anytime, and puts his arm around me (he'd never been an arm-putter-arounder). he touches me now. no, not for SF, just...touches. turns me on no end.

that said, the SF stakes aren't quite where i'd like them yet. it's a work in progress. we have SF on a regular basis, though not as often as i'd like. however, it's improving, and that makes me happy. heck, remember, it wasn't that long ago when SF was a total suck-fest for me, so where we are now is thrilling smile

and PA is coming along, too. i'm really tightening up at the gym. i've made a big point of taking H to shops, asking his opinion, and dressing (and accessorising - hair, makeup, nail polish) the way he's indicated he appreciates. today, when we were in town for a cuppa, i felt very proud being out with him, knowing that i was attractive to him. i should probably add here, that although H is kind of a tightwad, he's made no mention at all of the increase in spending on PA. remember, this is the guy who said i should discuss any purchase over $50 with him! i guess it helps that he's picking the clothes, etc.

anyhow, i've got to run, but wanted to update, especially for those who are new to recovery - as an avid reader here before i ever started posting myself, seeing others' stories and knowing there's hope - that MB really works - is sometimes the only light in a dark tunnel.

happy weekend everyone!
Posted By: armymama Re: cookies... - 03/09/13 02:59 PM
Thank you for this great update. It is an inspiration.

AM
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: cookies... - 03/09/13 06:30 PM
Originally Posted By: armymama
Thank you for this great update. It is an inspiration.

AM

Yes it is indeed. Thanks Letty.
Posted By: catwhit Re: cookies... - 03/10/13 04:37 AM
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
Originally Posted By: armymama
Thank you for this great update. It is an inspiration.

AM

Yes it is indeed. Thanks Letty.


X2 (or is that X3?)
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: cookies... - 03/10/13 05:14 PM
I agree - always good to be able to look at success stories for hope and inspiration! smile

I can really relate to all you said in your post. I know how much I now love the fact that my H is proud of me - and loves to shop with me! I think he loves the fact that I care about his opinion about everything - down to my shoes. smile Before MB I never really thought much about how every little thing needs to be "us against the world" and his opinion counted MOST. It wasn't so much that I didn't care what he thought - that wasn't it. I was just too busy trying to make sure everyone else was happy with me. I took his acceptance of me for granted. The #1 thing I try to remember now is that when I make sure he is happy first, everything else falls into place. It seems so simple yet I feel it's the biggest cause of growing apart in a marriage.

Reading your post makes me smile, Letty. smile I especially love that you are getting the affection you need - and that you feel your H is proud of you. It's a great feeling. And I totally agree with the kissing part! I read that somewhere too...although I thought it was 10 seconds. lol
Posted By: Letty Re: cookies... - 04/07/13 04:58 AM
hey everyone, just popping in. we've had the longest indian summer, and this weekend went straight into winter, no autumn to speak of! funny though, because it's cold enough to bundle up, but not so cold i need to bring out the merino wool. time to start wearing my hair up, 90+% humidity, whooee!

things are going well here; my dd and her bf were just down for the weekend, and H was actually (for him) gregarious. we all went bowling, and shopping, and he even gave her gas money without me having to prompt it! we also rescued her cat from a tree in our backyard with no griping. i cannot tell you what an incredible change this is. H was one of those typical "before" types - gruff, jealous of not having a monopoly on my attention, rarely speaking to any bf/friend of dds. and to go out and do an activity together - never! what a lovely, lovely change. now, if only i could get dd to ditch the bf! getting her a copy of buyers, renters and freeloaders. the poor thing knows she needs to, but isn't ready, yet.

i've done such a turnaround on PA that i've surprised myself. i was always one of those "you love the person, not the appearance" types, who felt that women kinda deserved to, as some say, "let themselves go" after childbearing - after all, they did all the work, and childbearing is hard on the body! (please note i don't mean gain 100lbs) and why should women have to keep trying to look 20 as they age? etc, etc. ridiculous, i said!

but now i understand a LOT more how PA is an EN, and how important it is to meet it to help generate those LB$s and reciprocal behaviours, and i feel a bit like a dolt for not "getting it" before.

in that vein, i've recently started personal training. i'm kinda interested in body sculpting, but i want to see how the training goes, how my body responds, and if i can keep up such a schedule with my job. frankly, with all my health issues, i'm amazed that i've been able to do as well as i have up til now. as term 2 & winter approach, i'll really have to work at it. you should have seen my face at my last session: red as a beet! but it feels good to be working hard.

anyhow, no real news. sunny, i had an important Q for you, but now i can't remember! next time.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: cookies... - 04/07/13 05:07 AM
Glad to hear things are going well and you'e had a great family weekend. What a change in the weather, although the lawn is looking greener.

Body sculpting sounds interesting hope your not thinking about getting into the bodybuilding scene ... could refer you to a bodybuilder for some tips ... whistle
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: cookies... - 04/07/13 02:06 PM
I'm so glad to hear about the changes in your life, Letty! That just makes me SOOOO happy for you!!!!!

I totally agree with you on the PA side of things. And on the BF side of things, lol. I sent my DD a copy of Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders and she really does seem to get it, thankfully! We've had lots of great discussions after her big breakup back in October. (Don't get me started on that... the ex-bf really turned out to be quite the liar - but that's another story. It's good she got out when she did!)

I haven't gotten into personal training or body sculpting but it sounds great if you can manage it. It's really something when we start to feel competent (and confident!) with our bodies. With my mom in such poor physical shape these days I am seeing more and more how important it is to make health a priority!

If you remember the question - let me know! smile
Posted By: Letty another year later - 05/01/13 02:34 AM
it's been a year now since we implemented Plan MB in our lives. the first half of this post is more of a reflection than anything else.

a year ago i thought all was for naught. it was a terrible, empty feeling. now, things are quite different, and it all seems so simple. that's really the kicker - it really is simple and straightforward - just follow the instructions.

last weekend we were out of town having dinner in a restaurant. i was thinking about our trip to hawaii at the end of the year, and suddenly blurted out, "we should renew our vows on the beach in hawaii! doesn't that sound romantic?" (see, BSs still make mistakes too.)

well, H wasn't too impressed with that idea. for some reason, that disappointed me. it must have been written all over my face, because a moment later he reached over, took my hand, and said, "why don't we do it at [place we married] when we're there later that month?"

the man i married would never have thought to say (or do) something like that. romantic gestures have never been his strong suit (or, just "suit"). this is a very impressive change!

it really topped up the LB$. we both are in sync, both make the effort, and the results are worth waiting for.

==============================================================

current issues for BSs:

1. a few weeks ago i went into my old hotmail account, and started deleting all the old email there (hundreds of emails). when i got down to the dregs, i found that i hadn't deleted all the evidence of Hs a way back when. and of course, like a fool, i opened and read them all. this is a stupid thing to do. don't do that. however, i still can't make myself delete it all - especially the important things i uncovered, aliases, passwords, etc. maybe next year at this time i'll be able to do that.

2. how to be supportive. H has recently had to return to work with a company he does not enjoy. the work is very pedantic (as in, it doesn't matter if it's done properly, it matters that it's done "this way.") so now he comes home everyday in a [censored] mood, and he doesn't know how to let it go/leave it outside, and isn't open to advice about how/why to do that. i'm open to suggestions on how to be supportive as a wife in these circumstances. i do listen to him complain about his day, and commiserate with him, but it doesn't seem/feel like i'm doing enough/doing it right. i don't want this to become a weight in our relationship. the good news is that it's short term, maybe just 'til the end of the year.

after some thought, i realise that this is the only issue in our m at this time, and that makes me quite happy.

sunny, i'd be interested in hearing more about your dd and bf - what on earth happened? my dd is just getting ready to move back where we are to finish her last year of studies; she's coming this weekend for job interviews/look for apt. the bf will be in tow for the move, even though she is not happy and knows she needs to break it off. i've been supportive - listening without judging, suggesting alternatives without being judgmental, etc. is the more i can do?

i'm off now to make a nice pork roast for dinner, with these fan sliced potatoes everyone is talking about. i'm also geared up to make H a banana cake with passionfruit topping, AND i just got a parcel from Go Native NZ with fair trade shea butter, almond oil, and coconut oil, so i'm going to whip up some, ahem, whipped vanilla-sugar body butter. how on earth do i ever have time to go to work? i love the holidays. smile
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: another year later - 05/01/13 03:03 AM
It's amazing, Letty, I was just thinking about you.

I hope you can rightly enjoy the renewal service as we did. It closed the door on a lot of issues that, while unspoken, still lingered on.

As for his struggles "enjoying" his job, you can open up the "admiration" and "appreciation" spigots as opportunities present themselves. Bride still works as a special ed High school teacher, and her job has been so "warped" by the NYS education "experts", and the students' attitudes have degraded so much, that she can barely remember how she used to enjoy it. I can usually finagle on or two positive stories from her each week, and work them into our discussions ("But remember, you told me that 'Stoner' was actually sober in class THREE days last week!")

She has the calendar marked: there are 25 more class-days in the school-year.
Posted By: Wow777 Re: another year later - 05/01/13 12:28 PM
We have a rule at our dinner table. If anyone says anything negative about anyone, they are required to say 3 nice things about them before getting up from the table. We've made it into a game and causes us to hink about the positive side of every situation.

I'm not sure if that will work in you case but might be worth a try
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: another year later - 05/02/13 04:25 AM
Ah - I'm just getting a bit caught up around here... I've been swamped lately! I have finals and my poor daughter got really sick and came home this week - she has finals next week, but needed mommy. smile

Glad that all is going well, Letty. I can relate to your last post. I did the same thing once - read old stuff and felt cruddy about it afterward, wondering why I didn't just delete it.

Sorry about H's job. I know that is no fun!

I can also relate to the "non-romantic" issue you mentioned. I would have been disappointed by the first reaction too - but, he made a nice recovery! smile

I'm curious as to why you thought it was a mistake to make that suggestion though? You said, "see...even BS's make mistakes too" in reference to suggesting vow renewals in Hawaii. ???

Homemade body butter???? Sounds like a blast!
LOL

As for my DD and the ex-bf, it's a bit of a long story. After months of him contacting her occasionally and her trying to get over her broken heart, she finally discovered the truth about him. He had been hitting up other girls via facebook and such when he supposedly was in this committed relationship with her. In fact, he had been doing so even before he came back home for his month-long visit in which she went with him to his best friend's wedding and all this stuff - right before the break-up.

Quite frankly, I wasn't surprised: not after the way he acted and the things he said to her through November and December: there was too much projecting going on.

So, after finding out about all his lying and cheating ways, she immediately went from being heart-broken to being thankful that she was spared from worse. She shudders to think she was on the path to probably marrying this guy one day. No wonder he wanted to stay overseas and work!

It's hard to know how to help your young-adult children through their relationship struggles. The best you can do is to educate,educate, and educate some more! my DD knows all the MB principles...and I have sent her every article on this website pertaining to dating and finding the right mate. I also gave her a copy of Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders.

Some of it depends on the relationship you have with her: if they think you're trying to control them they resent it. But, if they trust you - and trust that you have their best interests at heart, they tend to listen even when you think they aren't. SO - your daughter wants to break it off with this guy: maybe she's just having trouble doing it because she knows it's going to hurt - and change is always hard. Of course, it's somewhat cruel to keep him hanging in there if she knows he's not the one. Maybe you can appeal to that side of her.

My DD once had a boyfriend she had a terrible time breaking up with: she felt so bad for him because he was not treated very well by his family and she hated to be the person to cause him more pain. Yet, she knew he was not long-term relationship material - at least not for her. She felt awful - I felt awful - we all felt awful, even though it was the right thing.

I'm not saying that's your case; I guess my point is, breakups are never easy even when they are for the best. Be patient and be there for her in whatever role she will let you. I'm sure you will!
Posted By: Letty Re: another year later - 08/23/13 07:36 AM
so, it's been awhile since i've been in. things are still going great! i just popped in because i have a friend who is doing this thing that i thought sounded really cute and might be helpful to other couples who have divergent interests. they call it the ABCs of dating. every weekend they do 3 things that start with that week's letter. that's right, THREE things! they've experimented with all kinds of activities that took them both out of their comfort zones, they're having fun together, and really getting to know each other better than before. i thought it sounded pretty nifty, and we're considering it, though probably just at 1 activity per letter.

for those newbies who are wondering if MB works: if the others haven't yet convinced you, i don't know if i can add anything. but 18 months or so ago i thought i'd never be able to cope, to trust, to have a real marriage again, and now i can't refer enough couples, in crisis or not, to MB. it really does work. the great part is i'm not the only one who feels this way. my husband couldn't be happier, either, and HE was a major skeptic!
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: another year later - 08/23/13 12:54 PM
That's a wonderful update, Letty! Thanks for stopping in. I'm happy to hear the recovery is going well for you two.

Have fun with your new date ideas. Please let us know what you come up with. I can't imagine figuring out something fun to to for every letter of the alphabet, but it's certainly imaginative and creative!
Posted By: markos Re: another year later - 08/23/13 07:56 PM
Originally Posted By: Letty
so, it's been awhile since i've been in. things are still going great! i just popped in because i have a friend who is doing this thing that i thought sounded really cute and might be helpful to other couples who have divergent interests. they call it the ABCs of dating. every weekend they do 3 things that start with that week's letter. that's right, THREE things! they've experimented with all kinds of activities that took them both out of their comfort zones, they're having fun together, and really getting to know each other better than before. i thought it sounded pretty nifty, and we're considering it, though probably just at 1 activity per letter.


That does sound like a neat idea, but I'm not sure if we'd be up for trying Zoroastrianism on the 26th week...

Glad you guys are doing well!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: another year later - 08/23/13 10:37 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: Letty
so, it's been awhile since i've been in. things are still going great! i just popped in because i have a friend who is doing this thing that i thought sounded really cute and might be helpful to other couples who have divergent interests. they call it the ABCs of dating. every weekend they do 3 things that start with that week's letter. that's right, THREE things! they've experimented with all kinds of activities that took them both out of their comfort zones, they're having fun together, and really getting to know each other better than before. i thought it sounded pretty nifty, and we're considering it, though probably just at 1 activity per letter.


That does sound like a neat idea, but I'm not sure if we'd be up for trying Zoroastrianism on the 26th week...

Glad you guys are doing well!

Nice to hear from you Letty. smile

I'm not as creative as you markos. I'd have to go with Zoo on the 26th week. smile
Posted By: unwritten Re: another year later - 08/24/13 09:59 PM
Glad to hear things are going well Letty.

If you get stuck on a letter you could ask the creative MB crowd for help.
Posted By: Letty 6 mos since last post - 02/13/14 07:16 AM
and i thought i'd catch up. we're approaching the 2 year mark of real recovery (versus what we had post a, which involved a lot of wayward behaviour).

we don't have an emoticon that waves! hello old friends!

i am still a solid advocate for MB. while i may not pop in here too much, i find myself recommending MB to others i meet in other areas of my life, a or just m, ya know?

and i have to say, my H has come a looooooooooooong way. while it is a damn shame that it takes an a to shake your m out of whatever state is was in, even if only one of you thought it was bad, a recovered m is certainly a stronger one for having been broken. 7 years ago i thought my marriage was over. 2 years ago i thought it was irreparable. and while i'm a little wary about saying it, thinking that being 100% positive = a bad turn...i think we might be recovered. or at least on the downhill slope.

ahhhh, i wrote a book and then deleted it all. i can be verbose. let me just say that MB has become a way of life, and that MB structures and routines have become a part of what our m IS. and we are both the happier for it. he's happy and fulfilled, i'm very, very happy, and the evidence of MB really working is stamped all over our m. in how we speak to each other. in how we plan our time together. in how we look forward to both of those things. and at the end of the day, how we go to sleep intertwined.

it takes time. sometimes, you think that even though many months have passed you haven't made any progress. but then you realize: you're making it! you're getting there!

we just spent a nice time overseas, and it was a far cry from our last visit, just before i went PB. we had such a good time together (even with an adult child in tow), and feel so good about each other. building happy memories.

i have a book, a lovely album my sister gave me, that has an engraved plaque on it: the first 10 years. i've put off, and put off, working on the 2nd ten years, because the first of those years was the bad one, and every time i sat down with it, it make me rethink everything. but i finally said to myself: enough time has passed. do it. and i did. i sat down with all my scrapbooking stuff (i'm not a scrapbooker, but i tried) and just kept going, putting in tokens, making a list of photos to add...and by the time i got to 2013 i'd had a huge realization: things had changed. h had changed. i had changed. and that even though the book starts with the bad year, it ends, currently, with the best year ever. i guess it was seeing the evidence of it, right in front of my face, in my hands, was the clincher that we've done it.

recovery is hard work. it takes time. it feels forced, fake, even awful at first. but just like any other habit you've developed, it becomes second nature. and unlike your other habits (most likely!) this one is good for you and probably feels a heck of a lot better, too. keep working it. keep pushing for the best m you can have. keep your head up, keep your boundaries clear, keep your ENs high, and don't be willing to take crumbs. do be aware that your ws won't change from [censored] to amazing person overnight - even when overnight is several months. but if they are truly trying, don't give up. you will get there if you follow the MB road map. that's what it is here for.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: 6 mos since last post - 02/13/14 02:21 PM
Very happy for you and your H, Letty. Congratulations!

We have found, like you, that MB does indeed become a way of life. We see it, or the lack of it, in the movies we watch and in the real-life situations all around us.

My H says that although we've been married for 34 years, we've only actually been really and TRULY married for the last three.

The road to recovery is long and arduous, but the present is certainly MUCH better than we all began.

clap

Thank you for sharing your encouraging update.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: 6 mos since last post - 02/14/14 04:55 AM
So nice to see you, my friend.

Thanks for the wonderful update. Don't be a stranger. hurray
Posted By: Letty Re: 6 mos since last post - 02/15/14 04:31 AM
hey y'all. i wish i weren't such a stranger. it's just that work is so full on, and when i'm home, i want to be with h and not on the computer, ya know? as much i like being here, and being able to help others, it can also sometimes be a bit overwhelming, too. the term is starting to kick into high gear, but i'll be back in the first set of holidays; not going anywhere or doing anything this year!

am right now planning next weekend's activities. we're really focused on our house, and just sold a car that will enable us to - finally - recarpet the whole house, which so desperately needs it. we're hoping to stone a section of our yard (which was previously barked) next saturday. that will, i think, warrant the refilling of the spa pool, too hot or no!

my dd has a new bf, and he seems like a goodie. i've been guiding her the MB way - if she's going to be a buyer, he has to be one too. he seems to have a good head on his shoulders. and is much more prepared than the last bf to be in a relationship.

i've been popping into other threads to check on old friends, and see there have been some changes while i've been incommunicado. i know some people are friends offline, but i never seem to have gotten that far blush (and i don't facebook). now's a time, though, were i wish i could reach a couple of people outside of MB, just to see how they're going!

happy valentine's day, everyone, wherever you are. make new memories to increase your happiness.
Posted By: Letty final post - 09/13/15 01:05 AM
hey everyone. i just thought i'd pop in and put the end to my story here.

i have left my husband. i bought my own home a couple of months ago and moved relatively quickly. H was kind enough to agree to putting the separation date back so that i could file for divorce quickly (there's a 2 year waiting period in NZ), and all the other little things that come with dismantling a 22 year relationship he has been kind and generous about.

this was a huge step, but what i discovered was that it wasn't as hard as i thought. even though separating looks insurmountable, it's the *decision* that's huge, not the actual doing. and being the one to decide to leave the relationship is also much more palatable. have a plan, right? once you make the decision, everthing does fall into place.

why did this happen? because after all this time, despite our relationship being better than it ever had been, i realized that better than horrible wasn't good enough. i was the one doing most of the work. i made the plans, i made sure they were carried out, i met all of his needs. but he did very little. i mean, sure, he said and did all the right things, but it just didn't feel...real. and you know what? that's just not good enough. life is too short.

here is the story, for what it's worth. a few months back, H said to me, "how would you feel about dinner and a movie friday night?" i was pretty excited, because it's rare that he wants to do both. i even sat on the opposite side of him, so he wouldn't have to touch my "popcorn hands" (he hates the smell of popcorn). but he didn't hold my hand, unless i took his first. and then we went to the pub next door for dinner. we sat at the table waiting for our food, and i looked at the other people...and back to H, who didn't have his arm on me or my chair, and didn't have his body towards me when we spoke. and i thought: what the f am i doing here? what am i getting, that i want, from this relationship? why have i worked so hard to hold on to *this?* and then it clicked. he was perfectly happy. i was meeting all his needs. but i was miserable. before you ask, of *course* he knew my needs. of *course* we talked about them, did the worksheets, had more than plenty of UA time.

i believe that MB is the way forward from an affair, whether that is recovery or separation. and i will use MB to navigate any future relationship. i think now, more than ever, that the harley method for relationships is sound and viable, and creates the relationship i would want to have.

if i could go back 9 years and talk to my formerly terrified self, i would say: cut your losses and RUN and never look back.

so, if you're interested, i'm living in a sweet little house on the other side of our "hill." it has a lovely deck with a view of the ocean, and is small enough for just me while large enough for my life. i still have my same job, and financially i'm perfectly fine at the end of the day. i had no desire to beggar my husband to start my new life. i left him everything and just asked for an agreed-upon (half) value of our family home. my new neighbours are lovely, and i've been out a fair bit socialising with friends. i look forward to meeting someone eventually, and starting a new life, but for now, i'm happy to be alone. i am content, satisfied, and happy that i no longer have to worry about him and his problems/moods/temperament. if anything, i have not felt alone, scared, or lonely, but relieved and relaxed.

i am happy to answer any questions. i do believe MB is the way, it's just that you don't have control over others, only yourself. and if the other person isn't going to do their bit, then stop pushing.

shoutout to rocketqueen, unwritten, sunny, caracal, scottie, and some others who know who they are :P
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: final post - 09/13/15 01:15 AM
Letty, thanks so much for the update!! Sometimes the definition of success is divorce and I am happy that you were able to see that in your situation. As you know, you can't FORCE a person to meet your needs. You gave it your best show. Very proud for you!!!
Posted By: Letty Re: final post - 09/13/15 01:25 AM
thanks mel! i have missed your wise and firm words! keep up the good work 'round here, ok? there's so many people who need you.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: final post - 09/13/15 01:36 AM
Thanks for the update Letty. I have thought about you many times. You definitely put in the hard work and put up the good fight.

So did he even try and talk you out of the divorce?
Posted By: Letty Re: final post - 09/13/15 01:41 AM
>> so did he even try to talk you out of the divorce?

hahahaha, nope! not even once. in fact, once i said, "you know, you're right. we just can't do this anymore, i'm leaving, you can have everything," he dropped any and all pretenses to ever having loved me. he treats me like a friend. i appreciate how kind and generous he has been to me during this process, but...i have no words, really.

there's still a part of me that's sad and angry, but mostly not. my love bank is empty, and he's not chosen to try to fill it any more.
Posted By: unwritten Re: final post - 09/14/15 03:26 AM
Thanks for the shout out Letty!

You are a brave girl for taking these steps, and I'm glad to hear it is working out for you and you are happy and at peace. I am sorry to hear of the demise of another marriage, but I can relate to feeling like your spouse just doesn't feel like you are worth the effort. It is not a pleasant place to be.

So from an MB perspective, how do you explain his behavior in the end? Do you believe he was still wayward minded/foggy? It almost sounds as if he was, but I know you kept good tabs on him and practiced EP's pretty religiously.

Although you were not getting your ENs met and it makes perfect sense that you fell out of love, one would think that since he was getting his needs met and you were following UA, he would fall in love with you somewhere along the way and it just doesn't sound like he did. I guess I am wondering how your marital demise would be explained with regards to the MB program. In your opinion or anyone else's.

Anyway, it is great to hear from you. Good luck with your new single life. Don't actually have this be your last post though, come back every now and then to check in. smile

Last I heard from RQ she was also taking steps towards divorce, but that was awhile ago and I have heard nothing new since (we are FB friends too).
Posted By: SusieQ Re: final post - 09/14/15 05:42 PM
Good for you Letty! Please keep us updated. Hugs to you!
Posted By: Letty an addendum! - 09/15/15 06:23 AM
well, unwritten, i response to you the "perfect" (haha) thing happened today.

now that i am a free woman, i'm interested in meeting other folks. so i took everyone's suggestion and made a profile on the local (nz) dating site. it's well monitored, because it's so small.

anyhow, POSXWH heard i was on there (small town) and went to look at me. to do so, he had to make a profile. what did he do? he made the same exact POS profile he used to cheat on me. wasn't that lovely to come home to!? (you can see who has browsed your profile.)

so my response to you is YES, in retrospect, i don't think he ever really came of of being a wayward POS, even though i thought so because our M was soooo much better afterwards frown

i can't fathom being so cruel. honestly, at this point i don't think he ever really loved me (our M before the a was rocky), and despite all my good work, you simply can't make people feel what they don't feel. in fact, when i finally made the decision to leave, what i finally said to myself was: you can't change him. you can't make him do what he doesn't want to. if you are unhappy in this relationship, the only thing you can change is yourself. you have 2 options: reconcile that this is how it is and suck it up, or change YOUR life. you have the power to change your life.

anyhow, i've had my cry. and now i'm done with him. we had been friendly - going to another city for the weekend for our dd's birthday (together), helping me build stuff at my new house, etc. now i'm just...done. i don't want to see him again, period. or hear from him. or have to speak with him. i am soooo glad i finally got my head on straight enough to get strong enough to leave. i wish i hadn't waited 8 years. (and i'm super glad i put that 2 year separation clause in!) but i can't complain too much, because what we did have, thanks to MB, were the best years of our M, despite everything. and now i'm teary again.
Posted By: unwritten Re: an addendum! - 09/15/15 07:42 PM
Yikes. What a dumbnut, using the same profile. I can call him that now that you are D right smile

I am just wondering if some people have the personality to be eternally in the fog, no matter how you transform your marriage. For instance, serial cheaters, who are looking for that initial high and not addicted to a specific person. Even if you make the conditions impossible for them to cheat, do they still have a desire for that high. I think that would create a never-ending contrast affect of sorts that you could never live up to.

I know you are in a small town, but is it possible to go into a Plan B of sorts and not have to see/hear from/hear about/communicate in any way with your XWH? Seems like even though things are amicable, contact still takes an emotional toll.

You should start a new thread in the dating forum and keep us all updated on your journey!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: an addendum! - 09/16/15 01:29 PM
Same profile, wow!!

How is your DD18 doing with the D?
Posted By: Letty Re: an addendum! - 09/17/15 03:37 AM
well, i only have my one experience to go off, so that's probably not helpful at all. my analysis of it is that if i wasn't pushing the UA time, we didn't spend it (though we did spent a LOT - well over the 15 hours a week). and when we didn't spend it he slipped right off the radar. two years ago i thought we were madly in love again. i even asked him: when did you start loving me again? and then since then...well.

yes, i have totally plan b'd him. done, done and done. i still have a few things at the house, but i will just text when i'm coming and tell him to be out when i do, and that'll be that!

i'm so happy with my new life. i feel like a brand new person. i thought i would be sad and lonely and alone. not at all! i'm coming back to being myself: a naturally cheery person who enjoys spending time with others, and might even have a sense of humour that hasn't been beaten out of me!

unwritten, i know you have ...been having this in the back of your mind for a long time, with a spouse that just won't *do it.* i really can't recommend it more. wish i'd done it earlier, but i'm still young enough to get a couple decades (if i'm lucky) enjoyment, with someone who will *love* touching me, talking to me, sharing their life with me. i didn't have to spend all those years feeling the way i did. if i can be of any assistance to you, please reach out. i'm on fb too, though not a big user smile
Posted By: unwritten Re: an addendum! - 09/17/15 04:16 AM
Thanks Letty!

Things right now are actually better than they have ever been. Whittling away as Indie so eloquently puts it, has actually been working over the course of time. We do spend a lot of time together, H has put a lot of effort into eliminating LB's and I can definitely see the impact of that on my love bank for him. I look forward to our dates now, and I know he does too. We have now started focusing more on meeting each others EN's. We are in the process of building a new home and have negotiated amazingly well, there is only one time that I have had to tell him I didn't feel safe expressing my opinions (because he was using LB's to get his way) and would like to discuss the issue later and he was respectful of that. It used to be one day out of the month that I felt sorta happy and semi in love, and the rest of the days I had to restrain myself from packing a bag. But now it is the other way around. Now almost all days I feel pretty happy and more and more in love with him. But there are still those days I will admit, that I think it would have been real nice to just have a fresh start.

We went out to dinner one night recently and we were just casually talking about life, and he looked me in the eyes and almost started crying and said, "Unwritten, I am really sorry." He didn't mention those things which should not be named, but I know what he was referring to. Of course he has said he was sorry in the beginning, but it was the first time he said it like this, out of the blue, unprovoked, like he just wanted to tell me this, not because he thought I wanted to hear it. We are kindof beyond that. Which means it was the first time I believed it. He truly looked remorseful that he had put our marriage through this. It meant a lot to me.

So I would say for now, things are looking pretty good.
Posted By: unwritten Re: an addendum! - 09/17/15 04:19 AM
I am a bit resentful about the lack of leadership though. I see so many men here who fight tooth and nail for their wayward spouse. My H didn't fight at all. That has taken a hit on my admiration need being met. It makes me feel like I wasn't worth it to him. But I know how romantic love works, and looking back I realize that he was probably never really in love with me. So with that in mind, at the time, maybe I wasn't worth the effort to him. If he didn't love me, would he be inspired to fight for me. Dr Harley says men just need a woman to come along for the ride, but women need a man to lead the process. I absolutely wanted that. But I figured out along the way I was not going to get it, and chose to lead myself. Now I do feel like he has fallen in love a bit, and that has made him more remorseful and has made the effort more worth it to him. BUT, if I stopped scheduling UA today, would he? No, probably not. He would tell me he misses our dates and ask me to schedule it. But he would not do it himself. So yes I am resentful for having to be the leader, even though it is making the desired impact.

That being said, your story sounds like it could be me. That is why I ask the questions I do. Maybe I am fooling myself into thinking that better than it has ever been is good enough.
Posted By: Letty Re: an addendum! - 09/17/15 04:46 AM
firstly: that is really good news. makes me realise how long i've been away! i am really happy to hear it.

after reading second message: how's the sex life going? that was a big sticking point for your (and me).
Posted By: unwritten Re: an addendum! - 09/17/15 05:41 AM
Hrm. Loaded question.

SF has been a very difficult process. After everything that was said to me on my own thread, I almost felt an aversion to it. I felt really BAD to have it as my top EN. Looking back at my history with H, I felt ashamed at how aggressive I was, how much I had begged for it over the years. I felt like it was a weakness to have a great need for it.I stopped flirting at all after all the discussion about the grey line between good and vulgar (which, apparently I have unknowingly stepped over my whole life). I felt really bad instigating, like I was begging for it. And I was VERY sensitive to rejection. Since H does not instigate and does not have a drive, it went from bad when I got here to much worse. We never had SF and if we did, it was not good. And eventually I fell out of love with him, and felt no desire for him. I still had the physical desire mind you, just not with him.

Things have gotten a bit better lately, as we have eliminated LB's and started to fall back in love slowly. No where near meeting my need for it though. I just keep whittling. Dr Harley talks about how when everything else is fixed, SF will fall into place, and I guess I just put my faith in that.

I try not to think about it anymore, hopefully some day it will come.
Posted By: Letty Re: an addendum! - 09/17/15 06:05 AM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
I try not to think about it anymore, hopefully some day it will come.


oh honey, i hope so. hug
Posted By: DidntQuit Re: an addendum! - 09/18/15 02:18 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
Originally Posted By: unwritten
I try not to think about it anymore, hopefully some day it will come.


oh honey, i hope so. hug


Me too! (I posted some thoughts about this on Unwritten's thread.)

Congratulations Letty. I hope you enjoy your peace and have fun with your new life. I'm sure that many new connections will come your way. Great effort and job well done.
Posted By: axslinger85 Re: an addendum! - 09/18/15 04:47 AM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
I try not to think about it anymore, hopefully some day it will come.


Sorry to threadjack, but from my own experience of being in a marriage with SF issues and now being free of it, I couldn't more strongly say not to settle like this.

What you said sums up how I approached the same issue (although ignorant of MB at the time) and now I only wish I had those years back. They weren't many years to lose compared to many situations on here, but they matter to me and I wish I hadn't settled into this line of thinking for so long.

Hoping is never better than having boundaries and expectations, and had I been more honest with myself for those years, I am certain I would have found a resource like MB to clean up my side of the street and then really got to the bottom of whether my ex had any intention to EVER work at this or not. People like us who languish for years with unmet ENs aren't the sort that throw away marriages, we are usually the ones fighting for them.

Divorce seems terrifying at first but even a few months in the clear it is more clear every day that I made the right choice in doing it. What you said there just really struck a nerve because I can remember feeling exactly that way.

When you start trying to ignore it, it's not really hope. It's just that awkward space between hope and hopelessness.

That's not really MB advice but just my $.02.
Posted By: unwritten Re: an addendum! - 09/18/15 07:58 PM
Thanks ax. I am not really ignoring it in the fact that I still bring it up on every ENQ (which we try to do every couple months), and keep it front and center that way. I am just trying to stay focused on fixing LB's, doing the UA and filling other needs until he is more enthusiastic about meeting this particular need. Dr Harley often focuses on everything else first, because once a couple falls back into love, the SF almost fixes itself. I was just trying to say I am relying on that plan to work as we fix the rest.

Letty was around a few years ago when I first started posting here, back then it was one of the main items I posted about. I wanted more SF and was resentful for not getting it. There were a LOT of reasons why that was the case. We are trying to eliminate those reasons first, before focusing on the SF (i.e. lots of LBing, no UA, basically H was not in love with me and at times I have also not been in love with him...). I know he has much less of a drive than me, he has chronic health issues, and for that reason it is hard for me to imagine my need ever getting met *well* but I think now that we are working the program more, it will get better.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: an addendum! - 09/23/15 05:46 PM
Hi letty! Just wanted to pop in and say that I am so happy for you! Thanks for updating us

I, unfortunately, continue to be an MB failure but I keep going forward with trying to get over "that terrible time" and living my life.thanks for thinking of me smile
Posted By: Everthesame Re: an addendum! - 09/23/15 07:32 PM
Ooops! Formerly known as rocketqueen, lol.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: an addendum! - 10/03/15 02:15 AM
So good to see you back on MB my dear friend. You have been in my thoughts the last couple of weeks. So good to hear things continue to go well with your new life but sorry to hear of latest news of ex - can't believe he used that profile, best to have no contact & protect that big heart of yours. hug
Posted By: hopeless1231 Re: Letting Go of the Past - 10/28/15 05:14 PM
He's already had an affair so yes he gets the risk. The girls are just doing it to boost their ego but they'll do more for the same feedback. "Models" love attention. I tried to explain to one of my husband's friends that if somone is willing to take a picture of a banana that doesn't make it a "sexy model." He's making you feel bad about yourself and foolish about your relationship and trust in him. Ask him if that is his goal. If it's not, knowing that's what he's doing he needs to stop or you need to go. IMO. He already knows it's wrong.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 12/27/15 08:16 PM
hi everyone! and ever2late - i'll be checking out your thread to see where you are! thanks for all the posts.

i met someone in september and have been happily dating. going on a first date was ROUGH! i was shaking so hard it was obvious. thank goodness first-first date was with someone else (actually 2 others first, no go). but our first date was still fraught with fear and anxiety. it took some time for that to calm. but i knew right away this one was worth fighting through the anxiety.

it is wonderful seeing someone without all the baggage, who i don't have to worry about in that way. he is a widower (2x). 6 kids, though only one is bio. the fact that he fathers these (grown) children was part of the attraction.

but that's not what i came to post about. guess who's trying to get back in the picture?! yes, xWS is trying to get back. and i have to say, i was a bit taken aback by my feelings, and disappointed that he could attempt to meet ENs (not the attempt, but my inner response). the thought of being able to "start over" with a clean slate was a bit of a draw, i admit. all those words i always wanted to hear. all those ideas i'd always wanted from him. but i know that i would never be able to be 100% comfortable, never 100% "in" the relationship - i would always be holding back a part of me, waiting for the next hurt. besides - part of me knows it's just "some other dog dug up MY bone!" that's not remotely flattering.

i thought it was an interesting wrinkle to post here (i was going to post in dating, but i know you guys smile ). 20+ years of history, though, was a strong pull, and i could see, thanks to MB, how that had the potential to make a BIG mess. i am stronger for my MB work, though, and knew exactly what to do!

new man and i started our relationship on total honesty, and we discuss every little thing. one good thing about starting an older relationship is not having to avoid the "minefields" of younger dating. because we've already done all that - had kids, careers, etc. there wasn't any topic to avoid - not religion, not sex, not anything. and to be kissed by someone who *wants* to kiss me? hooeeey!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 12/28/15 04:40 AM
Do you think XWS knew you were dating and that's one of the reason he tried?

So glad you found someone Letty. You so deserve it!!
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 12/30/15 12:10 AM
oh yes, definitely, BH. up till then, he said nothing. not when i moved out, not when i bought a house, not when i was living my new life. it was only after he found out (small town, friends in common, not that i was hiding anything though) that he suddenly *discovered* me.

i feel badly that he's struggling to cope, but i do not feel bad about my decision. it's the right one for me. and i guess i need to update my sig line smile

how's it going, brainy? did you have a nice xmas?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 12/30/15 03:50 AM
Originally Posted By: Letty
oh yes, definitely, BH. up till then, he said nothing. not when i moved out, not when i bought a house, not when i was living my new life. it was only after he found out (small town, friends in common, not that i was hiding anything though) that he suddenly *discovered* me.

i feel badly that he's struggling to cope, but i do not feel bad about my decision. it's the right one for me. and i guess i need to update my sig line smile

how's it going, brainy? did you have a nice xmas?

Interesting that some waywards don't realize what they had. Some of them think the BS will always wait for them.

I had a very nice Christmas, thanks for asking.

You sound so well my friend.
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 12/30/15 07:02 AM
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
Originally Posted By: Letty
oh yes, definitely, BH. up till then, he said nothing. not when i moved out, not when i bought a house, not when i was living my new life. it was only after he found out (small town, friends in common, not that i was hiding anything though) that he suddenly *discovered* me.

i feel badly that he's struggling to cope, but i do not feel bad about my decision. it's the right one for me. and i guess i need to update my sig line smile

how's it going, brainy? did you have a nice xmas?

Interesting that some waywards don't realize what they had. Some of them think the BS will always wait for them.

I had a very nice Christmas, thanks for asking.

You sound so well my friend.


oh brainy, you wouldn't believe it - i'm like a whole new person! one of my problems living here was not having any friends. well, since my D, i've had people (women) come out of the woodwork telling me how great i look, how happy i seem, inviting me to drinks, etc. i had no idea how miserable i'd really been before, but shedding that mantle has been amazing. i'm so proud of myself for finally - finally! - making a decision and going with it. my life is so calm, so lovely, now. i have a sweet little house that i love. i have a small view of the ocean. i've made friends. turns out ppl wouldn't socialise with us before because my husband was so unpleasant! at our year's end xmas work do, the headmaster's wife came up to me and said "congratulations! i'm so pleased to see you happy. your husband was hard work." and that's what it's been like. that, and realising that even though i'm old, i'm still attractive. i'm seeing a man who tells me i'm the most amazing woman he's ever met. that's good for a bruised ego, let me tell you! and to be kissed by someone who *wants* to kiss me? who's not just giving a dutiful, undesired peck? holy cow! *that's* what's been missing from my life for longer than the 9 years that used to be in my sig line.

sorry, i got excited there! yes, some WSs are just so wrapped up in themselves that they don't have a clue. mmm, that's not what i mean. they are so full of themselves, so ENTITLED, that they really believe the BS will INDEED wait for them forever! and some of us do frown but now that i'm in control of my life, i feel SO MUCH BETTER! it is so good to be in charge of everything in my life. no drama, no horrible pit in my stomach; in fact, since splitting, i've had a dramatic drop in some of my health problems, which just goes to show ya!

i do regret the end of my M. but i know, truly know, that i did everything humanly possible to make it a loving, shared partnership. and that in the end, if i couldn't save it, i had to at least save myself. i stayed married after the A because i wanted to give our dd married parents, and instead i taught her to eat poo and like it (via my own actions). she is proud of me now. that's a blessing.

i hope things are well with you, my friend, and that your brain hurts less these days. are you in touch with scotty?
Posted By: Letty Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/24/19 11:34 PM
hello everyone. it's been 4 years since my last post, and thought i would do a final one, as i think of you all often.

first off: i am fully recovered from eXWHs affair. I've dealt with the baggage, and we've become amicable, though i have not been able to repair his relationship with our dd (that's his job).

i went into dating again with a new outlook: be cutthroat. if you're not compatible, cut them loose asap. this was effective, if sometiimes depressing. i discovered men in my age bracket were usually one of 2 things: wanting to replace their wife asap regardless of compatibility (ie wanting a mum, not a partner) or just looking for sex. i wasn't on board with either of those, and didn't get a lot of second dates! just as i was thinking that i was content enough in my life, i met a wonderful man. and now I'm remarried! i have a new baby grand dd now, and we've moved to a brand new location and started our own business, with a gorgeous country home near my dd. i never dreamed this could be me.

Dr Harley's Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders was very helpful during my dating journey, and it gave me the knowledge and patience to wait for the right man. a man that treats me like he really LOVES me, a man who wants SF, a man who enjoys spending his time with me! and its blissful. i never in my life thought i could be this happy.

thank you to everyone here on the boards who gave me hope when i felt hopeless, support so i could be strong, and friendship when i was feeling less than human. you saved me from living the rest of my life in agony, and made it possible for me to have a strong, fulfilling marriage. may you find yourselves on your journeys, with peace and happiness.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/25/19 03:12 AM
Congratulations Letty!!! So glad to hear of your happy life. You certainly deserve it. And congrats on your little granddaughter!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting Go of the Past - 05/25/19 08:02 PM
So nice to hear from you, my friend. I’m so happy to hear your wonderful update. How many grand babies do you have now?
We just had our 3rd. Well she’s 6 months now. laugh

Does your DH know about MB at all?

And you’re so correct that it’s your WXH responsibility to fix his relationship with your DD.

So happy to hear your lovely update.
Posted By: TheLongRun Re: Letting Go of the Past - 06/15/19 05:42 AM
Letty (Getty), I am happy to read your post. So glad to hear you are doing so well, and that you have found happiness and contentment and a truly good life. I hope one day to see a Rush concert with you. (Husbands with or w/o)
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