I�ve been reading this board for months. Most of the time it seemed very helpful, sometimes not so much. I was going to post last week but chickened out. It seems my FWW, Trueform, forced my hand by starting a thread, so I guess I�ll give it a shot. My head is all over the place with this stuff so I guess I�ll just pick a spot and let it roll.

Sometime in the spring of 2011 I was sitting at the computer in our office at home. My brother was sitting in our family room and talking to my wife who was busy in the kitchen. I really don�t know what he was talking about, nor did I really care. Then I heard him say, �do you know a guy named POSOM?� At this point I got up and walked into the room.

He was on my couch in the family room; she was about 20 feet away at the island in the kitchen, I stood between them. As I was walking into the room my brother was talking about an email he accidently received from POSOM which was intended for my wife. As I stood there, watching my wife�s face he made the comment, �man, this guy really likes you. You could have a stalker on your hands.� My wife coolly said to him,� just delete it �.

I was sure my presence prompted the unequivocal response, but I appreciated it nonetheless. I didn�t want to react in front of my brother and I didn�t want my wife to believe I was still insecure and jealous of this relationship, which early in our marriage was much longer and more intimate than I was originally led to believe. I did start snooping a bit right after this incident but it was half-hearted and I felt guilty doing it.

As it turns out, this email was the initial contact sent to my wife by this POSOM, nearly two years earlier. She had intended to delete it but instead accidentally forwarded it to my brother. I didn�t quite know at the time but this was the beginning of the end of what I had known as my life.

Right now I would give anything to go back four years and work on the deficiencies in our marriage which don't seem nearly as insurmountable as they do now. My wife knew very well what and where my greatest fear and insecurities were and went to that exact place with little hesitation, knowing that even one contact with this POSOM would kill me.

My main obstacle seems to be the ease with which she invited this POSOM into her heart and the ease which she was able to dismiss me. Then add to that how hard it is for her to allow me to believe I am her man and not just some sort of consolation prize, some sort of stooge understudy for the love of her life. That I can�t live with.

Hi Late, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for the reasons that bring you here. You can have a much better marriage than what you had before if you will follow this program. There is a very narrow path out of this and most don't make it because they don't follow these steps.

I will just tell you that I have a fantastic marriage and I don't feel like a consolation prize. It is because my husband and I are in love with each other. We can help you have the same thing.

This is a very telling remark and I believe indicates a problem in your marriage, which has - hopefully - been addressed. Jealousy is a normal reaction to a threat in marriage. You rightly perceived the risk even though she did not. The problem is that she has opposite sex friendships. That is why your alarm bells went off.

Almost every affair is due to opposite sex friendships. Most people don't go looking for affairs. They unwittingly ease into them by allowing "friends" of the opposite sex to meet their needs. As soon as one need is met outside of marriage, the others are soon to follow.

Do you still believe that jealousy is an inappropriate emotion? Are you able to see it was a very valid warning system telling you something is wrong? And have you reconsidered the value of snooping? If you had done some snooping sooner, you could have killed the affair in its early stages. Snooping protects a marriage, it doesn't harm it.

here

My concern and jealousy were because the relationship was much longer, more intimate and she had much more attachment than had been told to me originally. though he lived 3000 miles away they had contact with each other while he was engaged and after he married, which was 5 years before we started dating.

The biggest concern was that she maintained contact with a former lover; that is just an invitation to an affair. Does she have other opposite sex friendships?

Have you and your wife taken steps to change that environment?

I know you feel you have the full truth. Have you read surviving the affair? If not order it now. Also what EPs you have in place to protect your marriage from this happening again. You should post them for review. I would also suggest she deletes facebook or any social media that can be used to contact POSOM. How long has NC been established? Has you and her written a NCL? Does POSOM friends and family know? Expose this, friend. What snooping measures are in place to ensure NC. Seems like this guy hovers in and out of your WW life at his fancy. Have you spoken with POSOM since she has come clean. I encourage you to contact him, I am pretty sure you will hear a different story about the events. Now is the time to be proactive and crush this affair gather a the evidence and get texts messages and emails printed out. Your WW should help its JC. Send copies of that info and a exposure letter about the timeline of events to your family, WW family, church, friends and all these entities on POSOM side as well. More importantly tell POSOM wife and kids as well. If you haven't done this already.

I promise you this feeling will go away as your marriage recovers. If it doesn't recover the correct way, this will get worse. In marriages that don't recover, the resentment grows with each passing year. If you can create a romantic, passionate marriage in the present, it will take your mind completely off the past. I promise you this. It is like filling that nasty wound with effective medicine; eventually you heal.

The way to recover your marriage is:

1. create an affair proof marriage: eliminate opposite sex friendships, become completely transparent, give each other all your passwords, never spend the night apart

2. create a romantic marriage by devoting 20+ hours per week meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment - use this program in its entirety and learn the POJA and PORH

3. eliminate all lovebusters, that means NEVER bringing up the affair again

4. focus on being as pleasant and attractive as possible around your spouse [both of you, of course]

To my knowledge she has no OS relationships that aren't family friends we share in common. I have never been concerned or jealous of her behavior until and during her EA. I knew in my gut......I didn't know....but I knew. Her behavior screamed of it. I know I asked her at least twice during that time if she had a boyfriend, which was laughed off as a crazy idea.

I'm not as naive or presumptuous as I was and am much more sensitive to these things, but the most serious threat is her heart and the special and exclusive place she has devoted to this POSOM. I want to KNOW he is OUT. I want to believe I am the only member of her club and have full privileges, which in my mind were previously granted only to afore mentioned POSOM.

LFTS, my married affair-partner had also been engaged in another affair, to her ex-BF from high school. He lived in Florida, she in Virginia, and so let me just spare the details I was told & simply tell you that distances of 1,000 miles or more are no assurance that an affair wasn't physical.

I'm very sorry you've had cause to find your way here, on account of people like I once turned into.

The way back -- to a better marriage than what you've ever had before, for that will need to be your goal -- has to start with complete ("radical") honesty; because without that, you'll just never feel the necessary level of emotional safety with her to be able to fully reinvest in her & see her as the person she (says she) wants to become for you.

Given what I've seen of her story from what she's posted, I'd say you've gotta start with a polygraph. Her story doesn't just sound fully believeable to me; and I know from affairs, unfortunately from the inside. If she's been on the up-&-up in what she's told you about it, then she'll very likely pass, which will give you more confidence with all the other steps you'll both need to take going forward. But given the account she's spinning, I'd say that in your case, the poly has to be Step#1.

I concur.

I know how you feel there, brother.


I would suggest you take another look at the basic concepts again, and pay some special attention to the description of the Love Bank.

Taking the Love Bank model into account, what you think of as a "special place" is just a positive balance in the Love Bank.

What makes a positive balance? When someone meets our needs in the way we like them met. Sometimes this happens naturally and effortlessly, sometimes it requires we inform our spouse how to better meet our needs.

Love Busters, being negative associations, make withdrawals.

When people have pay no regard to their love bank balances, when we don't make the most efficient deposits, when we make frequent withdrawals... that decimates our account in the Love Bank of our spouse.

So... when someone has a low balance with their spouse, and they allow someone else to meet their Emotional Needs... there is a contrast in those accounts.

Your goal is not to erase the balance of your former competitor, but to ECLIPSE that balance so that it is meaningless in comparison.


The "ease" in which this betrayal was carried out was facilitated by the fact that you did the heavy lifting of day-to-day life, and all that had to happen in the affair is positive interaction.


So, your goal is to turn day-to-day life into positive interaction; learn what her top emtional needs are and how she likes them met, spend a sufficient amount of time together meeting the four intimate emotional needs, and absolutely minimizing Love Bank withdrawals. During this time you will ensure that her Love Bank is closed to members of the opposite sex.


It won't happen fast, brother. It took me a year before the intermittent bouts of anger subsided, and around 2 before I began to feel forgiveness.

Keep that in mind; it's going to take time and consistency on both of your parts.

I concur. There is trickle truth and pieces and parts that don't quite fit. Polygraph to be sure you are at ground truth.

AM

Regarding your wife's thread, there seemed to be several contradictions/gaps in her account of the affair. If she took a polygraph, it might help you to fill in the blanks.

Here you go.
Polygraph Testing

GO, for the record, my wife has offered several times to take a polygraph. My own observations regarding polygraphs has made less than confident in them. I have seen cases where people I know lied, passed, in employment situations. This was before it was illegal to use them this way. This is why I haven�t jumped at the opportunity. I have though considered the possibility of doing this same thing using a hypnotist, which she also said she was willing to do.

I do know that my FFW was counseled by a priest (who married us) to never tell me she met the OM. She eventually sought other counsel and the truth began to come out, albeit slowly. My first question after I knew she had even one email contact was, �did you meet? . I knew what the OM did for a living and knew that he traveled often.

I came home for lunch one day, several months ago. This was the day after I learned the affair was 2 � years, not a few weeks. My wife wanted me to watch a video with Dr. Harley. After the video, she turned to me and told me they had met. She swore on our children�s lives that nothing happened. BTW, I had sent an email a month earlier informing OM�s BW of the inappropriate communication. I then sent one when I knew the duration and on the following day another that told her they had a date. When I received no response, I called OM�s BW the next day.

Regarding the date, obviously this is a red hot button for me. I have great recollection of that time, which has made it tough on me. The initial proposal from my FFW was that she was going to spend the weekend with my sons best friends mom, her sister and a couple of their friends at a spa in a resort area about 45 minutes south of where we live. I said, � are you nuts, you�re a married woman with four children, they are all single�.this is inappropriate and unacceptable for you�..nothing but trouble�. Apparently POSOM was supposedly surprised and annoyed with my lack of understanding. I mean he had to suffer through the inconvenience of extending his business trip, switching hotels so that he wouldn�t be seen with my wife by someone who knew him and his wife and airline hassles, sheeh.

A couple days later I was asked if going for the afternoon and evening was cool. I said that was fine. The rainy Friday arrives. I come home from work and she is preparing to go. As she is leaving I give her a hug and a kiss. I tell her, �enjoy yourself, you deserve it�. While going out the door she turns and says, �if it�s raining tonight I might stay there and come home in the morning�. This I think was around 3:00pm. She arrived home just after 11:30, looking really good. I was sitting on the couch watching TV with the kids; she sat next to me on the arm of the couch, gave me a kiss and put her arm around me.

She has told me that until she got into the car to leave, she was nervous that I would see in her face what was in her heart. Once on the road she says terrible guilt crept up on her and she started worrying about an eternity in Hell. The hurt and angry part of me would like to dismiss that as crap. The truth is that her sincere spirituality is what I always loved most in her. I would like to believe that the good Lord works in us even when we don�t give Him much room and can mercifully spare us from ourselves, even when logic may suggest otherwise.

I have now seen the worst side of my wife and it certainly tells me of course she did something terrible. But I have 22 years of her life that I have been part of and as frightening as it may be at the moment, I feel obliged to consider things in totality. I don�t want to; it�s easier to stay angry I think. My faith in God is the only thing that prompts me to even attempt to move from that place. I have shared so much time with her in prayer and I know the love she has for the Lord, we both just got so lazy with our prayer life.

Yesterday after my wife posted on the board, things got real emotional around here. I suggested we get out and take a walk around the marina. Just to unwind and relax. She sat and spoke with me in maybe a less guarded way than I can ever recall. This is a spark of hope I desperately needed and I pray it is only the beginning.

Sorry for rambling�.a lot going on upstairs.

Late, we have had exceptional outcomes with experienced polygraphers who stick to 2-3 key questions. The way we suggest doing this is giving your wife a list of all of YOUR questions 2 days beforehand and giving her one last chance to come clean before the test. You and the tester will work out which 2-3 questions to ask and she won't know what they are until the test. This way, you usually get the full truth beforehand and use the test to verify her truthfulness.

What usually happens is the BS gets more "truth" before the test because no WS likes flunking a polygraph. Keep in mind, that most police departments use them and place great value on their reliability.

I have to admit that her story about the night in question is very incredible.

Most police stations know of reliable testers in their area. The best ones are the former police officers and FBI agents.

The reason we are bringing this up to you is because if the full truth is not on the table, it becomes an impediment to recovery.

Also do your children know of your WWs transgressions? You should let them know.

Dude, take your 12:42pm post (your portion) and print it out. Cross out, or highlight, everything dependent on "She said...." They are ALLLLLLLLL lies. The sooner you understand that, the sooner you will see the task that is before you.

"There is none so blind as he who will not see!" That's YOU, friend!

Go ahead, prove me wrong (I was....once!). Get her to take the poly.

Well, some skepticism is probably also warranted regarding the reliability of the word of someone who's got a track-record of maintaining a 4-year coverup.

Sorry you're having to wrestle with all of this, LFTS. Nothing about this infidelity stuff is logical, is it?

I'm not here trying to cast doubt on the Lord (as if I'd be able to do that anyway). I'm just sharing my experience for what it's worth, and in that experience, I've seen as close-up as anyone how God sometimes allows men & women to do some pretty stupid things to show us that He means what He says about the consequences of willfulness & selfishness. Sometimes He'll pull us back from the edge, and sometimes He'll actually not stop us from walking right on over it or banging our heads into walls until we seek Him. Depends on how far off we've wandered, I guess.

I guess people would've regarded me as a pretty 'spiritual' person before my affair. My affair partner, too. We started cultivating an inappropriate friendship simply as an outcome of spending too much time together, alone, practicing music & conversing, and not having the proper boundaries that would've kept us ever from being alone together for any reason in the first place. Initially, we were just conversing about the music. Spiritual music -- for the church music team on which we both were singers. How's that for spiritual people?

So I don't know from experience that spiritual people necessarily have a much better track record when it comes to going down roads we know we shouldn't, than people at large. Maybe we just have a certain frame-of-reference for dealing with the consequences. But we can be as mendacious as the rest of 'em, not only when we're in a sinful mindset, but even afterwards, when we're scared of the consequences & still trying to cover our bums sometimes.

I hope Trueform is indeed telling you the full story, although if I were her, I might make you physically stand in the doorway to keep me from taking that exam. (Just to show you how much I wanted to be open & honest for you.) I'm not tryin' to bust your chops at all. I wish you & your wife all the best. Marriages can be made better & stronger after an emotional and/or a physical affair than they were before. Like you, my wife & I also had a lot of good years upon which to rebuild. My skepticism comes not from knowing your wife's heart, of course; and it's certainly possible she wasn't as bad as I was. It's just that I just know from too-firsthand experience what people are capable of, even the ones you never think would fall that far. When people who're in the throes of an infatuation / emotional affair are still in partial control of themselves, it'd be pretty exceptional for them to go to the other person's hotel. Not when they both have access to cars & could easily meet at a restaurant. At that stage, before the clothes have come off, they still care about maintaining plausible deniability. Once hotels are in the equation, then things are into the territory of implausible deniability. And in my experience (which again, I admit, may not be universally relevant or applicable), it's implausible for a good reason.

You've got the best advice you can get. I would even say the Lord has laid some tools at your & Trueform's feet, in the form of such advice & resources. What the two of you do with those tools, is up to you.

Hang in there.

When she swore on your kids' lives that nothing happened, was that before or after she disclosed the she kissed OM and went to his hotel room? And why is she claiming that she was deterred by the idea that she would spend eternity in hell if she had sexual contact with OM? Neither the Bible nor the Catholic church teach that adultery is an unforgivable sin. You say you have seen the worst side of your wife and know she did something terrible, but you still don't know what. How can you "consider things in totality" while she continues to withhold information regarding the physical aspect of her affair? The problem isn't that you "got lazy with your prayer life"; the problem is that your wife's feelings for the OM are like an addiction, and it appears that she still hasn't come clean.

Just finished your wife's thread, and, wow, what a pile of dung!

In your wife's thread, she wrote that she changed clothes prior to her dinner date, but said she did not change back into her original outfit before she came home. Did you notice that she was wearing different clothes when she came home? She offered no explanation for going to OM's hotel room before or after dinner, and I'm wondering if she actually changed clothes in his hotel room.

LftS, Does it not resonate with you that all here, who are experienced in the ways and ploys of wayward spouses, are advising you of the necessity of having her take a polygraph test?

Look, you know she has already lied to you several times (meeting vs no meeting, who she was visiting) for years. What factor could possibly be swaying you toward believing that while she was lying before, now she's telling the truth?

There's a logical tool called "Occam's Razor" which states that given two (or more) possible explanations, the one with the fewest (or smallest) assumptions is likely the truth.

So, given the two stories, and translating her unsupported words to assumptions on your part here's what we have. The assumptions are in red.

Story 1
WW left for the trip. She told you she might overnight, depending on the weather. She changed in a restroom someplace, and drove around for an hour before going up to POSOM's room. The chatted for a while, and went to dinner. She was nervous. They went back to his hotel room. They never had sex or inappropriate contact. She came home.

Story 2
WW left for the trip. She told you she might overnight, depending on the weather. She and POSOM had sex, but not good enough for her to overnight. She came home.

Dude, having inferred from your writings your depth of religious conviction, could it be that you are willfully eliminating the opportunity to truly know what happened because you are either:
- using your "good" marriage as a buttress supporting the edifice that is your faith?
- unsure that you could generate forgiveness for her transgressions, and prefer not to face life without her, or, anyway, life without the quality marriage you thought you had?

As far as the "unreliability" of polygraphs, the so called "single focus" exercises, in which the same basic question is placed in several forms, drive the false reading cases to very, very low numbers. If she fails (and you still believe wrongly) she should undergo another session, with a different tester.

She was supposed to be meeting girlfriends at the day spa. So the change didn't seem unreasonable. Also I know she did not want the OM to see her without being well prepared and attractive.

It's been a rough couple of days. A poly may very well be in our very near future.

Sir, we here will take no great joy in having been proved right, as the recent developments now demonstrate.

Two things, however, I want to impart to you:

- If you needed us before, you most certainly need us more now. Do not withdraw from this medium of support. Commit yourself, TO yourself, and FOR yourself, to post here every day, even just a nominal "how it's going" message.

- If your willingness to post is impacted or impeded by TF's ability to read your thoughts, hit "notify" at the bottom of this note. One of the Moderators might be able to help you.

I'm very sorry that you will have to go through this. I suggest you remember that His support will be there for you as you need it, if you only ask.

I don't buy her story and neither should you. Polygraph her and if she refuses or tries to talk you out of it take some measures to protect yourself ie Plan B.

Re: Just looking for hope<<<----title of your thread


There is no hope until you have the complete truth. Without that your WW will continue to hold on to the fantasy of her secret world and you will continue to hold on to the unanswered questions and doubts. It will eat away at you until you despise her.

Schedule the poly and get it done with. If she can take one without any measure of deception, then you will have hope of recovering a strong marriage...with the MB recovery program.

If she takes a single-issue polygraph with a certified examiner, the results can be more than 99% accurate. I recommend defining "sexual contact" and then testing the following issue:

"Sexual contact" could be defined as "penetrating sex (oral, anal, vaginal) and/or romantic or sexual physical contact, foreplay, or kissing."

The single issue could be: "Excluding LatefortheSky and 1 kiss with OM, have you had any other 'sexual contact' since (insert wedding date)?"

Late,

I know this is a very difficult time right now. I am so sorry. Trickle truth is also called the "death by a thousand cuts" and there are many here (me included) who have been at the receiving end of it.

There is hope though. If your wife choses to stop being a liar and becomes honest and open, your marriage has a good chance at recovery. There are many positives aspects about your marital history. You have been married a long time and have children. You have faith in a higher being and a spiritual life.

Sadly, I don't believe that you are at ground truth yet.

AM

Late
I am a FWW so from that perspective I want to encourage you to take up your WW or perhaps FWW's offer of lie detector. Like you I have some doubts of its great accuracy, HOWEVER, they can in many circumstances at least indicate if there are lies being told. Not foolproof and if for court I wouldn't accept it, but YOU are the one who decides here.
Could she think she can trick you? of course she could but you have to start somewhere or just keep spinning the wheels. And Late.... HOPE is not a plan!!! The plan that works is the MB plan.
Have you ever thought that your wife may need a 'push' a 'lever' to get the courage to tell you the whole truth? Her offer of the lie detector may be her way of seeking that situation. I know I tried to twist and turn and avoid it until corned like a rat up a drain pipe as my loving hubby says.
Do it, use the MB plan and you CAN have a wonderful loving marriage.
Hope is a blessing Late, but by itself will not give you success. You AND your wife must commit to the MB plan, hard and hurtful though some of it will be, if you want the marriage you dream of.

Thanks AW. This stuff is just so bloody difficult. This past weekend was so hard, with old wounds which were just beginning to heal being torn open again. Not to mention new ones which cut right to the core of me. I�m not even able to go to work today. I thought the last 18 months had me a little more battle hardened, but to my surprise, not so much. Well maybe a little.

I am grateful for the stimulus this board has given my FWW. Some withheld truth has come out and some personal insights have helped her get closer to getting busy with productive work. Every step though kills me and I�m runnin� out of steam.

Trickle Truth will kill you ... you have to demand she give you 100% honesty TODAY ... it is death by a thousand cuts if you don't get the truth.

I think if she won't give you the full truth ... you should think about separating and going into Plan B until you get the truth.

Concensus is she had sex with that man in that hotel room ... she waited 17 years to be loved by that man ... she waited 17 years for him ... she was going to dump you for him ... she lied to you for all of your marriage.

I would demand the truth. She has 24 hours to do it. Your WW has a lot of work today ... she has been entrenched in fantasty and lies for decades. It will take her some time to understand how to live an honest life. She has to want to do this ... it just isn't honesty ... it has to be RADICAL HONESTY.

Get her polygraphed ASAP ... if she doesn't call and get it scheduled by 1700 COB today I would make her move out until she is ready to give you the full truth.

Otherwise SIR ... you will be the only one destroyed in the end. You need to be healthy. YOu have lived with trickle truth for several years ... ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. It has to end today ... This is no way to live and it certainly is not the way to be married.

ETA: She is not even close to an FWW ... She is still wayward until you get the full truth. WW is who she is today.

I agree with WiF. You need to see progress and the polygraph scheduled and the whole truth will make you feel better about the woman you love. People forget how lying hurts more than the REAL story. Did you order SAA yet?

Yes, we did get SAA a few weeks ago. After reading this board for a while I began to buy in to the MB program. There was something holding me back, something just isn't right. There was this gut feeling that the openness and honesty wasn't where it needed to be to even begin such an exercise, without making it a sham.

After she began posting here, things have been really shaken up. The past couple of days she seems different in our communication. She seems less guarded with every word. I think we are now onto something.

You are grateful that "some" withheld truth has come out and she is "getting closer" to doing productive work? Do you really believe that is the best she can do?

Are you going to insist on radical honesty, or are you going to settle for her "seeming" to be less guarded?

Radical honesty is what I have insisted on from the beginning. I knew MB or anything else for that matter will be useless without it as a foundation. Thats why last Friday, as hard as it was, I told her if she didn't start divorce filing that day I would on Monday.

I don't think you can recover your marriage until she discloses everything, so you have nothing to lose--and everything to gain--by insisting on full disclosure. Are you considering Plan B?

Are you considering Plan B?

I would THINK that with no active AP contact, and with two days having passed since the "I've-been-lying" d-day, LftS could invest a bit more time in Plan A before pulling the pin on the Plan B grenade.

Historically, the arrogant(?) WS who arrives here to attempt to enlist us in convincing the BS that his/her (justified) suspicions are unfounded has not quickly turned around. (Think TRT for the best worst example.)

Plan A is not highly effective quickly with fogged-up WSs. Someone likened it to throwing pebbles into a pond of unknown depth; given an infinite portion of time, and unlimited pebbles, eventually the results will break the surface.

LftS, you should perfect the "loving husband/stern taskmaster" attitude dichotomy which best supports the carrot/stick mechanics of Plan A, and keep tossing the damn pebbles.

He has been insisting on full disclosure from the beginning, but she continues to withhold information because she knows from experience that there will be no consequences. That's why I was wondering if Plan B might be an option at this point.

She is trickle truthing you and you are already giving her an "F"?

BH's being in denial and being too quick to forgive and NOT requiring the bare minimums for a successful recovery is a huge problem on MB.

Sorry but I am seeing MANY signs of that problem on this thread. She is nowhere near earning her F yet.

The poly is your first step. Each time she trickle truths you, it erodes your love bank and hurts your chances of a successful recovery -- not to mention she stays foggy.

Getting the full truth out is Step 1. That poly should be scheduled TODAY. Stop trying to "talk" your WW into giving you the truth. Just schedule a poly. There is NO REASON not to. None.

If he can't even schedule a poly, he is no where near pulling the trigger on Plan B.

...she knows from experience that there will be no consequences.

THAT is a condition of their marriage that both own. It will change.

Her last post (21 January) alluded to having made the polygraph arrangements. (And if she hasn't, LftS will, right?) Between today and whenever that is scheduled to happen, it's very likely LftS will get many more details. Implementing a Plan B would curtail that process.

I would suggest that the only thing that should drop the "Plan B Hammer" right now would be ACTIVE contact with OM in which TF participates, or PASSIVE contact which she would fail to disclose.

Sorry but the whole "gut feeling" generally works when the BS thinks they don't have the full truth. I really doesn't mean anything the other way = BS thinks they don't need the poly.

Ask me how I know.

Besides, it is best to be prudent and just verify it anyway. It's win-win.

She will continue deceiving you as long as you let her. "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." -Albert Einstein

You got here in Nov but didnt post until last week and your dday is celebrating its first birthday. That means you spent one year stewing over what went on in those hotel meetings.

You lurk here and read all about MB finally getting the nerve to ask for help just last week.

You get her to come on and she tries the same bulls--- story with us she's convinced you of and its takes us exactly one post on her thread to know she was sleeping with him.

Even after we get her to all but admit to hotel sex, you are waffling and hemming and hawwing over nonsense to avoid the issue.

Now, what we do to wormy guys like you is try to change them in to men because, youre right, this is one emasculating situation.

Reach down and grow a pair and tell this woman she needs to tell you what happened. You let her off the hook for a year and that ends tonight because shes thinking this, too, will blow over.

We can tell 1000 times on her thread, but it needs to come from you.

PS. I got what I needed from my wife in terms of honesty and we avoided a poly. You may not be so lucky.

Thanks so much Mike. I really appreciate your caring and constructive input. I'll be sure to recommend this board to any of my friends I find in this unfortunate pain.

BTW, my wife did the poly today. The result, very confident no deception . Thanks again.

Late,

That is good news. Do you feel as though you are at "ground truth" with your wife's affair? If so, you should never mention the affair again. Bringing it up over after knowing all the details that you need to know will keep you "in the past" and both of you feeling badly. If not, ask whatever you need to and get answers that make sense to you. I am very surprised if your wife has told you everything yet.


The next focus is to spend a minimum of 20 hours a week of undivided attention in meeting each other's most intimate emotional needs: intimate conversation, affection, recreational companionshrop, and sexual fulfillment. Avoid the lovebusters of angry outbursts, selfish demands and disrepectful judgements.

AM

Exactly what were the questions asked? Sorry for my skepticism, and I truly hope I'm wrong, but this still doesn't add up at all.

I read the polygraph questions in your wife's post. The second question would only rule out sexual contact with OM during a single evening of her entire 2.5 year affair. And how did you define "sexual contact"? More importantly, the third question is not a legitimate polygraph question. (A polygraph can only test your memory of something that occurred in the past.) A legitimate polygraph examiner would not have agreed to test the third question, so I wouldn't put much faith in the results you were given.

You should post a list of your experience, qualifications and copies of State certs for poly's. I'm not sure what bug you have up your nose, give it a rest.

The way I see it is I'M the one who needs to be satisfied with the truth not anyone else on this earth. I am so busted up inside because of the truth I knew and the truth that has been confessed in the past few days, I would have like this place to be more supportive and not so negative.

Some of you post as though the only acceptable truth is that my wife f***** the guy. Whatever.

Anything constructive anyone has to offer would be really appreciated, but I'm too messed up to deal with hostility right now.

LFTS,

One poster apparently wrote down a list of questions on a piece of paper, then asked their WS to answer them. The polygraph person then asked if the WS answered the questions honestly, likely along with some control questions.

I think the questions boil down to a few,

1) was there any contact to mucus membranes, that being lips, tongue, nipples, genitals and anus.

2) did you orgasm or reach arousal with the other person would cover phone sex and other indirect means.

God Bless
Gamma

Late,

Are YOU satisfied with the results of the poly?

I do agree with the other posters that the third question is a surprising one. I had understood (and my experience is with my H's poly) that questions addressing feelings versus past facts would not be valid.

Please re-read my previous post.

AM

Yes I am. The third question was mine. The tester didn't like it and it was reworded a couple times before the test. I cared about all of them but this is where my greatest hurt is. She told him if he left his wife they would be together. I was told this two days ago, so its fresh.

I read your post, thanks. I think all is out, but gun-shy right now.

LFTS,

Sorry, thought the test was not yet administered, and you were looking for suggested questions.

God Bless
Gamma

Okay, LftS, it took a while, and a lot of wrenching effort, but it appears that the first hurdle has been passed!

You do understand the next tasks before the two of you, right?

Good job on giving the poly.

Has your WW set up EPs?

Ok. So you can understand why we questioned it. Your answer clears up the concerns.





Fog babble pulled out of her fantasy world.

Good job Lateforthesky.

" I think all is out, but gun-shy right now."


Gun-shy is normal. It took me a long time to believe my H if he said the blue sky was blue.

The next step is to eliminate all the conditions that made the affair possible by defining extraordinary precautions. This should include sharing all email passwords, phone access, never spend nights apart, etc. There are many lists of EPs around as examples.

Then, build a passionate marital relationship. Spend at least 20 hours a week in undivided attention, meeting the critical emotional needs of affection, intimate conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. Avoid the lovebusters of selfish demands, disrespectful judgements, and angry outbursts. Read the books "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Lovebusters".

You have your history of the affair. Once EPs are in place, never talk about it again. Dr. Harley talks about the "enemies of good conversation". Talking about past mistakes (ok, so an affair is not really a mistake, but something much more serious) is one of the enemies and just makes everyone feel badly.

AM

Here you go.

Extraordinary Precautions

BrainHurts is amazing. She has every reference at the tip of her fingers.

AM

The MB librarian!

The MB librarian!

I shoulda copyrighted that title!

I thought you already did?

This was money and time wasted.

This was not an acceptable valid test when you insist on questions that the expert did not want to use.

Then to ask did WW have sex that night, vs did WW ever have sex with the OM.

You have not gotten the truth. You made the margin of error to wide to render this test to have any worth.

LFTS,

BTW, just the fact that your WW was willing to do the test goes a long way to making her a FWW.

God Bless
Gamma

AM, this the point where I have been hitting a wall. I think the MB plan is great (it took a while), but if I was going to do it I was going to do it. For myself, I would not begin some dog-and-pony show, which is what it would be without all truth revealed. We would get to this point and I just knew there was more. She thought if she told me I would tell her to leave, but wouldn�t face the fact that the deception I correctly felt was killing me and driving me further away every day.

I have more faith in her honesty this morning than I�ve had in some time. I believe it is warranted and I think she knows that if she deceives me now, that�s it.

Now it�s time to get to work (not that this hell hasn�t been work).

Trueform admitted to kissing the OM that night, but the polygraph examiner didn't detect deception when Trueform answered "no" to the second question. Unless "kissing" was excluded from the definition of "sexual contact," the polygraph examiner's results for that question must have been invalid. Moreover, the polygraph examiner provided "results" for the third question, despite the fact that a polygraph isn't even capable of testing that type of question. Regardless, Late and Trueform seem satisfied with the polygraph results, so I've decided there is no reason to continue pointing out the obvious. I wish them well, and sincerely hope they can find a way to recover their marriage.

It was excluded.

Only you have to be satisfied with the poly, not us.

Recovery is a slippery slope. You came here wisely seeking advice but didnt request help on what to ask on the poly. A simple addition or withholding of a word changes the dynamic and renders the answer worthless.

Now you lost the exclusivity of the MB because your wife is poster here, but can you let the well-intentioned members here guide you (and her) through the next phases? Creating a loving and excellent marriage isnt as simple as you thought and extremely difficult after learning whatever you have learned.

His wife is not in an active affair so it is good that she is here. Am 100% with armymama that the focus needs to be on recovery. We are past the polygraph now.

Amen Mel.....plenty of heavy lifting ahead, letting go of things when it's time is tough enough. THANKS.

I agree with Mike -- it's too bad you didn't ask for support of this board on the poly questions. We could have helped you there.

I point this out not to keep the focus on the poly but instead to make sure you continue getting help implementing this program. I noticed the Q by BH about EPs was not answered. What EPs are being implemented?

For God's sake can this be put to rest. For the record, I copied the questions directly from this site, The third question was mine and the one I was most concerned with. Tester adjusted slightly to be less vague and I was comfortable with it.

The point was about the feedback you would have gotten if you had posted your questions and about the fact that we are trying to help you implement things that would be beneficial to recovery.

I understand being angry about what is going on in your life but we are not the enemies here, OK?

That being said, is there a reason that the question about EPs isn't being answered? Do you want help with this?

Did you see this part of the post?

The anger towards us is alarming because we aren't the enemy, and all we can do is provide the facts and logic to the situation. We only want to protect you because a false recovery could kill you sir.

I have yet to see any recovery happen when it doesn't start on the foundation of radical honesty.

Her extraordinary precautions have to be solid to the core. The feelings she has for this man are there. Still there, and will not go away anytime soon. Recovery is difficult because it is raw emotions met with accountability. Your WW has had zero accountability for years and has built some very difficult bad habits to break. Her recovery will fully depend on her ability to follow the EPs exact, and your ability to hold her accountable. One slip must be met with consequences from you.

In the thousands of recoveries I have seen on this board succeed, honesty is the forefront. A life of full transparency is crucial without usually leads down a terrible path.

Please post her extraordinary precautions when you can. I think guidance would be helpful. I am sorry you are feeling so much pain. It is the worst place in the world to be. I have been there. Most of us have been there. We have overcome and the support from this forum is a place of safety.

Your enemy is the affair ... your enemy is your wife's lies ... your enemy is your wife's betrayal.

She has to carry you through this recovery and her actions will lower your pain and will heal you accordingly. She has to do this and she has to heal you. It isn't your job to carry her adultery ... any part of it.

She owns this nightmare 100% and her actions from this moment on will prove to you her remorese.

EPs are the only way to show you she cares because they are your greatest protection. Let them be GREAT!!!!

Maybe this was missed because of all the focus on the poly, but could you please answer?

What EPs have your WW given you?

Good question. What has your wife done to change the environment that allowed her to conduct her affair?

As a note, many extraordinary precautions apply to both of you. It addresses the avoidance of risky situations - before sliding down the slippery slope.

AM

It is a little concerning to me that he refers to his wife as "FWW" ... I don't think she's anywhere near earning her F. But his willingness to believe she is may have some very sad consequences down the road.

Using FWW is my best honest opinion. I am struggling with where to go from that place. If it is WW, then game over.

I know where we should go: recovery!

That's where I thought we were for almost a year. Going to MC this morning...we'll see how that shakes out.

MB has given you the plan.



Eliminate all the conditions that made a secret second life possible.

Set up EP's to protect your marriage.

Spend at least 20 hrs UA time meeting each others needs and rebuilding the romantic love.

Look forward and create new happy loving memories.


It is up to your WW to make a complete change in her lifestyle and live in a way that makes you feel loved and protected. This is when she EARNS her "F"...when you can look at her and see in her actions that you are safe.

It is a long road but well worth it.

We'll see. I know she's a lot tougher than me in this arena. I am damaged goods, Trying not to jump the gun on this roller coaster.

yikes!! Just so you know, marriage counselors are destructive to marriages. There is a very narrow path to a recovered marriage and I would be shocked if a traditional MC knew what it was. [they have an 84% failure rate and a higher personal divorce rate than the general population] I would ask the MC what his plan is to restore the romantic love to your marriage. Chances are that he/she has no earthly idea how to do that.

LatefortheSky, here is what it will take to recover your marriage below. If the "counselor' gives you any advice outside of this, then he/she doesn't know what he is doing. [and most do not]

And secondly, if the counselor counsels you together and allows you to air grievances, you will both leave worse off than when you came in. It is for this reason that the Harleys never counsel couples together. It causes massive lovebank withdrawals at a very vulnerable time. It is a very destructive practice. I would not agree to do that if I were you.

here

What EPs has your Wife set up?

Just so I understand, would you be more specific.

What EPs have your WW put in place?

Change cell phone number and give password & account access to your spouse.

Change email account.

Eliminate all social networking accounts.

Take a polygraph.

Give my spouse access to any banking/financial accounts, business and personal.

I will protect my spouse and their feelings above all else.

I will not participate in any one-on-one meetings with anyone of the opposite sex.

I will not discuss my personal marriage issues with anyone of the opposite sex.

I agree to use POJA as a basis for all decisions.

I will be open and honest with my spouse at all times about the past and present.

I will provide my spouse a daily schedule of all appointments and contact information.

If I need to make an adjustment to my schedule, I will notify my spouse of the change immediately.

I will make my spouse�s phone calls my highest priority by answering them or returning them immediately.

I will avoid all chat rooms, member sites, etc.

I will trade phones with my spouse at any time they request, NO questions asked.

I will leave my phone accessible to my spouse at night/or anytime I�m home.

I will commit to at least 15 hours of undivided attention with my spouse to meet each other�s ENs every week (time working together does not count toward those 15 hours).

If OM finds a way to make contact, I will immediately end the contact and notify my spouse about it immediately after.

I will install a keylogger, GPS, or any other tracking system my spouse may request.

Anytime I have the thought, �I don�t want my spouse to know about��.�, I will call my spouse immediately and tell them my thoughts.

Anything else my spouse wants as a boundary.

Might want to add that she post on the site or commit to a Marriage Builders program for recovery. Looks solid IMO

I believe she is committed. I was the one who was balking after some things came out a couple weeks ago. I don't want to do this for show. I needed to get to a place where I believed she was doing it because she really wanted to be here, not because there was no place else to go.

Should I ask to have this thread over to the Recovery board?

Suggestion? Start a new thread there. Having the "issues" from SAA tag along may weigh on the new outlook you and she will be attempting there. You can put a link back to this thread in your epilogue for folks who need the back-story.

I'm trying not to get ahead of myself on this stuff. I'm in a worse place today, in many ways, than I was six months ago. I do have a question, what is considered Just Compensation in these situations?

Is it just NC and a list of EP,s?

Lateforthesky, here is the just compensation article that explains what we mean by JC. And yes, a big part of it is NC and implementing EPs. Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

How are you doing?

NC and EPs are JC, certainly.

The remainder is whatever you think is needed to make you feel that FWW has "gone the distance" to put the burden for recovery on herself, removing it from you.

Some recovering BHs request higher levels (frequency, if not intensity) of sexual activity. This is NOT trivial, or immature, in many cases. If there HAD been a decreases in SF in the period leading to the affair, it contributed to HIS feeling of dissatisfaction, driving HER feelings of disconnectedness, etc, spiraling ever downward.

Some BSs demand a post-nup agreement. Dr. H speaks against this, as compelling affection and fidelity is much less effective than facilitating and fostering it.

Absent anything immoral, illegal, or abusive, most things are on the table.

What would you WANT?

BTW: You are not the first to ask this question, only, for the moment, the most recent!

JC Ideas

Just Compensation, in a nutshell, means affair proofing the marriage and then using the 10 Basic Concepts to restore the romantic love to the marriage. Meeting needs is certainly part of that, but it has to be done - not in a sacrificial way - but in a way that makes both spouses happy and satisfied.

Its real important to understand that just compensation does not mean sacrifice, but using the program to recover the marriage. Something they should have been doing all along. A WS should not EVER agree to something that is not good for the marriage.

...not in a sacrificial way - but in a way that makes both spouses happy and satisfied.

Nicely worded, Mel.

LFTS, this also speaks against the post-nup option (and, FOR the other example I cited!)

Again, though, the precise JCs that would work best in your case would be specific to the facts and details of your case.

In our case, Bride chose to relinquish her union-leadership position. It was not, actually, something that would have been a potential NC violation, but it had been a contributor to her prior association with POSOM, and continued as a time-thief, stealing from the necessary periods we needed to spend together.

SF has been an issue, but only recently (and during the A). The only hitch is that I am the problem. This was an area in our marriage that we seemed to work together really well. In fact until December it mimicked our first 5 years of marriage. Then for whatever reason I began to have great anxiety with the prospect of bedtime.

My depression with this and all the other stuff revolving around the A and my own selfishness had me not wanting to go on. In fact, if not for an inexplicable miracle, I wouldn't have. This led me to talk to my doc and I started AD meds. They seem to help the head but I am suspecting they are messing with the SF department.


I couldn't agree more. The JC I need is sincere effort to repair the damage done by her. This to should be natural if there is a real desire to have a marriage of any real worth.

Late, the key to this will be spending your 20+ hours of UA time together. As long as you are doing that, the romantic love will be restored to your marriage. And your wife may not feel like it at first. But her feelings will follow her actions.

Just expect that she will feel somewhat withdrawn at first, but that will change if you go through these motions. The policy of undivided attention is the KEY that makes this all work. Hope that makes sense!

There are some excellent AD meds that do NOT interfere with sexual desire or potency. My H was on one type of AD(Zoloft) that wreaked havoc in that department. But years later he was prescribed Wellbutrin, and it was great. He was helped a great deal mentally but without any interference sexually.

Just wanted to jump in and let you know that there is hope in the AD department. Let your doctor know the difficulties and he may prescribea different medication. It may not help the rest of the woes, but it may at least eliminate this one aspect of a tough situation.

My depression with this and all the other stuff revolving around the A and my own selfishness had me not wanting to go on. In fact, if not for an inexplicable miracle, I wouldn't have.

Dude, I'm as grateful for the miracle in your story, as I am for the one in mine!

A certain raw, newly betrayed husband was in a
chapel asking for help. He was contemplating
the unthinkable, having about given up. Not an
overly religious man, he didn't even know what
to ask, or how to ask it. An hour went by, and
no answer was forthcoming, so he arrogantly
assumed he knew was his path was to be. As he
left by the side door, he saw two elderly women
trying to enter through the locked main doors.
They saw him and asked if they could enter that
way to see the beautiful new main church. They
had formerly lived in this area, were passing
somewhat nearby, and had driven an hour or more
out of their way just to see it. Our subject
let them in the side entrance, and showed them
the magnificent new House of God.

The ladies, after a few minutes, started to leave,
and the troubled man walked out with them. As he
started to take his leave, one of them said, "You
were a God-send, being here just as we needed you."

He hurried away without looking back, knowing
God's gift was not him to them, but them to HIM!

If the ADs are your lifeline, do NOT unilaterally dispense with them. Work with your doctor on adjusting dosages to minimize the deleterious side effects.

Meanwhile, have you been fully honest with FWW on these matters - ALL of them? A fully involved, connected marriage is NOT only concerned with the celebrating the highs, but in buffering the lows as well.

Thanks Mel, some important points here and I couldn't agree more. I do have a problem with WS making judgements regarding what and how to help us in the very area her judgement (RH and lack of) has not served us well.

I am eternally grateful and thanks for your story. Getting to that place is a hopelessness I never want to experience again.

I never wanted to have anything to do with crazy drugs but hey, what the heck, if they work that's all that matters. Yes I have been very open and honest with FWW regarding this and every thing else. I'm still hoping for the same in return.

Thanks LongWay, I'm calling the doc in the morning to see about making an adjustment.

LFTS, Just remember that this period of life will pass and become a distant memory in 5 years...

In what ways is TF not following radical honesty? Are you still talking about the affair? What are you doing during your UA time?

FIVE YEARS.....I could be dead. Just kidding, sorta. I have never been so patient in my life as I have in the past 18 months. I think we're getting there, it's just that I'm not so confident in what I will be in the end at this pace.

Regarding the RH, some stuff came out a couple weeks ago when we began posting here. Details about the A that she had lied about and the fact she had closed an investment account we held in common and moved all the money to one in her name only. Yes, the A does come up, some of this stuff is only 2-3 weeks old for me.

UA is in need of work. I would like to blame TF for that but in all honesty much of the problem here is me. TF would like nothing more than to spend UA time filling EN's. Me....I'm still seein' if it's safe to go outside.

Jump in with both feet, my friend. The faster you fall in love again, the sooner the pain will fade into the past. You are on the right track!

I discontinued both the AD and anti anxiety meds after 3 or 4 months because 1) I thought I didn't need them and 2) an issue in the bedroom arose.

I would encourage you to get them at dosages you can be happy.

I agree keep on this road and don't deviate. Once you fall in love again don't change what your doing. Your doing great. Don't forget the basic concepts on this site as well.

Thank you ML, thank you all. All of you have been through this in some manner or form and I really appreciate your understanding. It is so helpful to have the diversity of perspective you all so generously provide.

ML, the words you posted above have been on my mind often in recent days. You see, this is where I had been for months, on my knees with my arms reaching out (figuratively and literally). This seems to have taken a toll. Like I told Trueform a couple days ago, it just feels like too little, too late.

What my dear wife didn't realize or appreciate is that no one, including her parents, ever loved or cared for her as as much as I did. Everything else aside, the disregard for me and my heart during what I hoped was recovery has caused real damage.

It was so important for her to protect herself. For so long she was so motivated to protect the A and OM and herself. Then daily looks me in the eye and allows the pain to continue, knowing she is the only one that can help is one hell of a love buster. I just don't feel much of anything right now.

I'm reading Love Busters and Dr. Harley writes,...however, spouses tend to react more negatively to long term deception than to the concealed event. This seems to be true. Months ago when I first began reading this board I read GloveOils post. I asked my wife to read it and told her that his attitude and care for his wife was admirable and I thought TF should take it to heart. OH well.

Is this just one of the awful stages of recovery? It is so empty having the love of my life become the most dangerous person I have ever known. I really do and will appreciate any and all assist.

What my dear wife didn't realize or appreciate is that no one, including her parents, ever loved or cared for her as as much as I did. Everything else aside, the disregard for me and my heart during what I hoped was recovery has caused real damage.

It was so important for her to protect herself. For so long she was so motivated to protect the A and OM and herself. Then daily looks me in the eye and allows the pain to continue, knowing she is the only one that can help is one hell of a love buster. I just don't feel much of anything right now.


LS did she break NC? What do you mean by this post please clarify. How is she continuing to hurt your heart? Why doesn't she post here anymore would be helpful to see both sides.

I'm sorry, LFTS. Maybe TF read the wrong thread. Maybe she should take a look at the one where my wife explained how the pain of my infidelity felt to her as at least equal to the pain which parents feel upon the death of a child. (You guys have kids, right?)

My wife has been a nurse & manager in neonatal intensive care units since 1987, and has seen more than your or my share of dead infants & grieving parents, so that's not exactly a comment she'd have tossed off lightly.

Maybe it'll help shore up TF in the empathy department. 'Cuz it sounds to me like maybe she still doesn't think that what she chose to do to you, with the deceit, the lies and the division of loyalties, was all that bad.

Once one gets that it was indeed that bad, it may tend to focus the mind.

What my dear wife didn't realize or appreciate is that no one...ever loved or cared for her as as much as I did.

Interesting, but basically irrelevant to the algebra of relationships, my friend, at least in the vector in question. Your "love" for her only worked to prevent YOU from being unfaithful.

It would be possible that her LB$ was so low as she entered the affair that her interpretation of your pain (resulting from your higher LB$ being plundered) is based on what she would have felt, ie "No big loss!"

Is that a comforting thought? Probably not, and it certainly makes your task all the more painful. ("Hey! I'm the BS! Why am I tasked with trying to heal my own feelings and building up HER LB$?)

Does it change the program? No, but it does give you a better appreciation of the task (and its purposes) before you.

Some WS's get it right away. Some NEVER get it. Their small (or negative) LB$ that existed prior to the affair would have (figuratively) rendered that account closed.

From a subjective viewpoint, LftS, I do not get the feeling from TF's posts that she is as heedless of your pain as your post would indicate. I do believe that she has not yet grasped the concept that she should be doing the heavy lifting. It would be of value if she detects your dissatisfaction and 1) asks the reason, and 2) takes care of it.

Remember, though: Marathon, not Sprint!

I usually convey my thoughts pretty well. All of this stuff and the thoughts and emotions have me in uncharted territory. This board was helpful for me long before I ever posted and I believe that many of you thoughtful folks here may be able to help me sort through this mess.

Nothing like that TD. I guess it is like the boy who cried wolf. After being misled over and over and over, I�m empty. Hopefully she will resume posting and allow you guys to help us find a way out.

I believed so many times she got it, that now even if she does who would know or even care. This isn�t what I want, just where I am. I have asked her to read my post, so maybe she will be open to the insight you have.

NG, that�s how I got to where I am. TF seemed to be all in so many times while she was still sandbaggin� me. Regarding the heavy lifting you couldn�t be more right. A few months back I told her that it was time for her to drive the bus. Now I seem to be sitting in the back of the bus and she is still in a passenger seat wondering why we aren�t moving.

Marathon�..no way. When I ran track I was a sprinter (our oldest son is a college sprinter now). In the movie Chariots of Fire, the trainer Sam Mussabini tells Harold Abrams that the 100 meter sprint is a race tailor made for neurotics. At least I haven�t lost my sense of humor. Your point is well taken, Thanks.

Well, she knows where to find me here.

ML,I read your response on another thread and I have a question. My wife gave me a NC letter to look over last week which was written using the above as a template. This was a surprise because she and OM last spoke on the phone the morning after I confronted her with my suspicions and very little evidence on 1/9/12. The last contact was 2/9/12 via text message to OM telling him to not respond to any email or text as it would be me and not her.

The last phone call apparently consisted of the jig is up, him telling her what lies to tell me, they may not be able to talk again and that they loved each other. I really never considered the NC letter because of how things went down and the time that's passed . Is this something that she should do? Thanks for any advise.

Perhaps I should have been more general with my question. Anyone with any experience, wisdom or insight on this is greatly appreciated, thanks.

I don't understand the question? Did your WW write a NC letter to her POSOM using the template, let you review it and you both went to the post office to mail it off together? Or all she did was send that silly email? If there was no NC letter done then suspect ongoing contact. That might explain her behavior, do you have snooping in place? Is she O & H?

No NC letter was ever sent. A week ago she showed one she had written using the example ML provided to another poster. I suspect no contact since the one on 2/9/12. Since I was caught by surprise on this, I was concidering the wisdom behind sending one or not because so much time has passed. I also know that OMW is very involved in taking care of EP's on her end.

I am not a vet by any means and you might wait for another opinion. But send that ***** off. The purpose of NC is to show you (BH) that WW has cut the adulterous creep out of her life. It is a prelude to the EPs that insure NO CONTACT FOR LIFE. If the slimy POSOM finds a way to contact your WW. She should immediately let you know and together you brainstorm better EPs to ensure NO CONTACT FOR LIFE. Each time there is contact her foggy induced thinking overrides recovery and sets you back to square one. My educated guess is that you have 0 trust in her now. NC letter and EPs are JC (just compensation) and a starting point to rebuild trust. Send it certified with a return receipt to ensure this SOB got it! SEND IT TOGETHER, WITH YOUR APPROVAL OF THE CONTENTS. Wish I knew how to link to the NC subject. Read about it in SAA.

Yes she needs to send the NC letter.

Has she changed all her contact information?

What is her list of EPs?

Also, keep in mind the EPs are for you both.

Late, I am very confused. Your wife said she sent the MB nc letter in 2012. Yet you posted this nc letter very recently, when she has supposedly not had contact for a year? What is up?

And I see you are STILL talking about the affair?? Do I need to smack you around, Sir??

Please don't give up on us. Whether it seems so or not, I believe you guys have helped in so many ways since we began posting. After rereading many posts on Trueform's thread and my own it seems so painfully obvious that O&H and communication in general has been pathetic, to put it kindly.

I have no one else to turn to. When you guys question Tf on either the facts or how they are conveyed, at least somebody not me is getting frustrated trying to decipher what is being said. Even when being truthful every sentence seems to leave wiggle-room.

Because of all of your input Tf is beginning to see this as a her problem not a LftS problem (subtle form of gas-lighting). Thank you again.

Please don't give up on us...you guys have helped in so many ways...I have no one else to turn to...at least somebody not me is getting frustrated...

No worries, mate! Even for us Noo Yawkers, this is not our first rodeo.

That said, it will be vital that she not convince you that we're being...unreasonable, mean, whatever...and she should withdraw. (She has not yet shown too much of that, which she gets credit for.)

Have you aver asked for a timeline, starting waaaaay back, and ending today? Having everything written (and editable) might help you (and us) keep track.

When a person has had a SSL for so long, lying and lack of O&H just basically becomes a very bad habit that is difficult to break. Moreso for some (as you have unfortunately learned through multiple d-days).

Have you read through the O&H articles? There are tips in there to help your W (like filling out the personal questionnaire and going through it with you, etc) It is going to take time and it's also important that you basically remain calm and don't commit lovebusters while she is still learning to become O&H. Leave the room/house if you must.

Hang in there...

Thank you. After reading your post I mentioned this to her and I believe she began more soul searching. I think she is really trying to be RH. The recent revelations are things not involving her AP, but others before we were married. Keeping these things secret is one of the things that helped make it easier for her to deceive me. They also would have weighed in my decision to marry her.


Susie, I see this very clear in everything that has happened. After reading LB I also see how I often made it difficult for her to be honest with me. This is something I have been working very hard to overcome.

It appears that she manipulated you into marrying her by withholding critical information about herself. She hasn't been deceiving you from the beginning of your relationship because you "made it difficult for her to be honest."

She has been lying to us on this message board since her very first post, and she is still posting deceptive comments to us. We are not responsible for her lies, just as you are not responsible for her lies; she is responsible for her lies.

She tries to paint herself as a fearful, innocent victim--and you as the aggressor--in order to excuse her lies. That is utter nonsense. She doesn't lie because she is afraid of you (or us); she lies because it enables her to manipulate you (and us).

Honesty and Openness #2

While I was reading the book I pointed out to Tf that I saw both the avoid trouble and protector liar as elements of this unrelenting deception. The rub here is that now, this week, I think she has come clean. The trouble is that the struggle, pain and time have done much damage.

The good news is I believe in redemption and this week is a good time for me to be open to the hope given by the Lord.

Withholding information before we were married may seem OK to some folks but it is a very big deal for me. I asked some of these things straight up and was lied to. I should have been honestly answered when I asked about her previous boyfriend (a very friendly acquaintance of mine), instead of hearing the truth months after marriage. These type of things are disrespectful to me, as I should have been given the opportunity to sort things out before we took vows. This by no means says that I would not have married her � I was in love with her. She didn�t trust me.

After marriage I understand I certainly made things difficult with withdrawal, DJ�s, AO�s and abusing alcohol. Most of my destructive behavior was pretty difficult to hide which is both bad and good, since I couldn�t hide it even from myself. Tf is able objectively observe my attitude and behavior, I on the other hand no way of knowing her heart.

This reminds me of a MB radio show I heard during the past few months. If I remember correctly, the couple had promised each other that they would remain virgins until their wedding day. However, the man had sex with another woman during the engagement period and didn't tell his wife until after they got married. The wife was really upset, and called into the radio show for advice. Dr. Harley's approach suprised me. Basically, he said the husband had already broken the terms of the marriage contract by marrying her under false pretenses. I don't remember whether the wife said she would have married him anyway, but Dr. Harley said she had the right to decide whether she wanted to remain married. The basic idea was that the marriage contract could be considered null and void because he'd duped her into the marriage though "false advertising."

In my opinion, your situation is even worse than the caller's because Trueform didn't just withold information about her past; she outright lied about it until after you married her.

I hope you and Trueform are able to get the whole truth out in the open, and then move forward with real recovery.

BrainHurts: Do you happen to know which radio show I'm referring to? I would like to post a link in case I'm remembering it inaccurately.

LAteforthesky, I feel exactly as you do about this issue. My husband lied to me about so many things before we got married. The entire time we were dating and engaged, he was carrying on relationships with other women on the internet. I always sensed something was very wrong but I was in such a state of shock in that point in my life, that I ignored it. I very much did feel I was defrauded into marrying someone I would not have married if I had all the facts.

I want to tell you, though, that I no longer have that resentment because all that resentment has been replaced with a romantic, happy, passionate marriage. I look at my husband and thank GOD every day he is mine. He has made my life so happy and complete.

My point is that you CAN overcome this resentment if you will follow this program. I am concerned that you and your wife seem so stuck on her affairs and her lies. There has to come a time where you stop talking about it and start working this program.

Thanks MelodyLane, I needed that. The things you describe are what has always seemed just out of reach and in recent months appear absolutely unattainable. You guys are helpin� me pep talk myself back into an all in frame of mind.

Tomorrow is Holy Saturday, March 30. Well as irony would have it, it was Holy Saturday March 30, 1991 at about 2 PM I saw Trueform standing near me and decided I was going to call her up and ask for a date and the rest is history.

I sure wouldn�t mind this marriage being resurrected with a new glorified body.

Found the clip about the different types of liars.
Radio Clip on the Different Types of Liars

Still looking for the clip JC was referring to.

JC,

Is this it?
Radio Clip on Cheating Prior to Engagement
Segment #2

It�s been an interesting week. Trueform seems to have turned the corner and I see and feel an availability and openness in her that I never have before. This is not something from the A, but what has been inside her always, and the thing that made the A possible. She seems to finally be able to look at herself honestly which will allow the MB work do it�s magic.

Thursday I called the OM. This was something I needed to do just for myself. It went about as well as I could have expected and I think I have a greater peace of mind for doing it. I did take some guilty pleasure in hearing of the countless hours his BW has spent grilling him�.oh, and EP�s she has put in place.

I don�t post very often but this board is wonderful. I read many of the threads and you guys have really kept me in the game at times I feel like quitting, thanks.

I'll pay you a dollar to elaborate!



I need some guilty pleasure too.

You got it Pep. I�ll give a little back ground to give it some perspective. This long distance stuff started over 30 years ago, long before I ever met Tf. Midway through her second year of college she transferred schools and moved from the east coast to the west. This began their phone relationship, with the occasional shared vacation� . He broke up with her during their last semester to date his current BW.

While he was dating and engaged he was still calling Tf. I didn�t know anything about OM�s BW until I called her last year to expose. She told me that the week they got married she had heard that Tf may be in town. She said she told OM that if Tf was anywhere that city he would be standing alone at the altar.

He continued calling Tf after he was married, telling her his BW would probably divorce him if she knew. After a couple years Tf stopped it and spoke with his BW and apologized, this all came out when I exposed to his BW last year. Tf and I were married 3 years later and lived��

I actually did appreciate most of what he had to say when we spoke. He began by apologizing for what he had done to me and my family. He swore he would never again contact Tf in any way and that he and his BW nearly divorced over this. He seemed to understand to some degree what done to me as a man, admitting that if our places were reversed he isn�t sure he could do it.

OM has a home office so he now has BW as an always present partner and has provided the opportunity for OM and BW to spend entire days sorting through his poor decisions over the last year. OM has a full time travel partner for his frequent business trips; he is no longer on any social media. He doesn�t drink anymore because he has a drinking problem (this is funny).

I�ve got to run I�ll finish in a bit

His "frequent business trips" are an invitation to an affair.

Ya, but his BW is his new travel buddy. The first time I called her, I told her that Tf and her WH had a date and that he had tried to meet up again. I told her that her WH had tried to arrange to meet in a city a few hours north of us. Well, when I told her that she told me that he was out of town, at that event. What angered her was that she wanted to go, but he told her they were told no wives on this trip.

ahhhhh, that will solve the problem!

Maybe it's just me, but there is a minor pattern I think I see in some of, or maybe many of the threads I have read. WS's and FWS's don't seem ready to commit to recovery until they have completely wiped out the BS's Love Bank for them.

Is this something, or am I just projecting my own stuff?

WS's and FWS's don't seem ready to commit to recovery until they have completely wiped out the BS's Love Bank

Conjecture?

Because until the BH (much more prevalent here) starts making it manifest that the entire marital edifice is about to come down, the WW refuses to take it seriously. And modern husbands have had most of their "sternness" trained out of them, so it's only at the last moment does it come out.

It's human nature to NOT accept the inevitability of the looming catastrophe. Global warming? Rising oceans? Yeah, maybe! Until the Atlantic Ocean floods the NYC subway system, and then it's, "Oh, boy, we have to get serious!"

The two fastest turn-around stories by WWs in my time here have been mirrormirror and.....myself. Both BHs' reactions were so ...dynamic?... strident?... unmistakable?... that the WWs "snapped-to" immediately. There was no, "Well, he doesn't really mean what he's saying. It'll just pass by and we'll go on as before!"

Can you tell your WW today, something that she absolutely has to do today, to preserve the possibility of a recovered marriage, and have her do it, without question or negotiation? A week into our situation, I could have done that. MM had his WW on her knees, begging for forgiveness, within two weeks.

Anyway, as I said, just (anecdotal-based) conjecture.....

NG, I've been thinking about what you posted. My initial read agreed with your thoughts generally, just not specifically to me and my circumstance.I think the chink in my armor came when I offered a chance for redemption.

You also offered something else, on another thread, which I found insightful. These are a few of the things I haven't been able to solve.

Trueform mentioned in her thread that you are not getting your UA time. How is that going in your opinion? You will not recover your marriage unless you put in those 15 hours.

PS, vets can you read both this thread and Trueforms in Surviving an Affair. There seems to be a disconnect.. Can yall weigh in as they seem to be stuck..

TW, I think UA is getting better. Trueform has been great. I have been struggling mightily on a spiritual and emotional level, I'm tired.

Have you considered getting some medication to help you? The right meds will restore you to a normal state of mind. When I was at your point, that was the single thing I did that helped the most.

Thanks, yes I started meds 12/21/12, which seems to have helped. Even needing meds is a tough though, my father was a paranoid schizophrenic. I never admitted to anyone including my wife, that from 12 until my late 20's I had this terrible fear that I was the ONE. I saw every quirk as a symtom or a way I was disquising the fact I had inherited this thing.


This stuff has so uprooted me to the core...I can't even find a safe place inside myself. Wow, how is that for someone who detests pansy psycho-babble?

I think the chink in my armor came when I offered a chance for redemption.

FWIW, I agree.

(And here's where NG starts the process that usually ends with being attacked as wrong, until I respond angrily and get "moderated", so read quickly!)

Too often the BH "gives" redemption to the returned WW. That is flat, frickin' wrong. Redemption should be "earned" by the WW, wrenched from the clenching fists of the BH by WW actions and demonstration of remorse reform so blatant that she MUST be granted the boon.

EPs must be ironclad, approaching the range of "overbearing". These will be the coverage of your "rear" to allow you to stride forward. They can be, and logically will be, loosened over time (years), but as you're finding out, they can never be tightened once defined as loose.

JC must be comprehensive. Yeah, I got it, getting one's "pound of flesh" in return for one's suffering is deemed somehow ...primitive...by the more "refined", but who the HELL cares. The damage was done to the BH's primitive emotional centers of possession and security. Having WW write an apologetic sonnet in response is NOT going to apply balm to the injury.

I couldn�t agree more. My problem was when I confronted WW I had no evidence of an A. She made an NC call the next morning and there begins more than a year of trickle truth. One reason it took me a while to appreciate the benefits of Marriage Builders is at the height of the TT, Tf emailed me the link for this site. It didn�t take much effort for me to see she was only interested in POJA. A couple of hours later, while I was home for lunch, is when I learned she met POSOM.

Okay, now you (we?) have learned two things:

You SCREWED UP!
and
YOU screwed up!

TF cannot be expected to understand the dearth of satisfaction that the current state of "recovery" provides you, unless you can explain it to her, which means re-addressing the A, and THAT is not good either.

So, dude, it's on you. Sorry, but there is, it seems, a "permanent record" after all, and yours will carry forward a C- in "Immediate Affair Recovery".

I did not have MB as Bride and I moved forward, so after two months I also realized the failure you're struggling with. (It wasn't so much her failure to aid me, as my ignorance of what aid I required.) I then created a paradigm via the re-commitment ceremony that August in which I figuratively began a new marriage, with the same woman. Bride continues to honor May 1 as our wedding anniversary, and I am actually paying it more heed recently. But from 2009 through last year, my "anniversary" was August 13.

Is TF the person you would marry today, with no prior commitments ever made? If so, then "do" so, with whatever level of formality will serve.

The old, damaged LftS/TF union must no longer intrude on the new one, pardner.

TF cannot be expected to understand the dearth of satisfaction that the current state of "recovery" provides you, unless you can explain it to her, which means re-addressing the A, and THAT is not good either.

Just for the record, I absolutely expect TF to understand the unacceptable state of recovery and to do whatever is necessary to have any chance of recovery. She is the one who threw our marriage away for some childish crap she held onto for 35 years and then lied to me for the better part of the last 4 years.


Is TF the person you would marry today, with no prior commitments ever made? If so, then "do" so, with whatever level of formality will serve.


NG, you certainly got right to the point here. After reading your post I really thought about your question. When I got home from work I asked TF if she had seen your post and she said she had, so I asked her if she had any thoughts about it she tried to recall what you posted. I repeated your question above and my answer was NO.

Long story short, she is a different woman today. We renewed our wedding vows on July 23, at a Mass at our home with our four children; it was really a beautiful thing. Thanks so much NG for both your question and your suggestion they were both helpful, like a kick in the pants.

Lots of work ahead but I have much hope and realize my biggest challenge is to let go of resentment and keep my heart open to any and all of TF�s genuine efforts to win her marriage back. Thanks again NG and everyone who has cared enough to help us during this most terrible time in our lives.

LftS, there are many, MANY, MB colleagues who resent (and deride) the advice I tend to offer here, for both its content and the rigor of its delivery.

I will face ALL that opposition, and gladly, for one story like the one you and TF are writing together.

God Bless You both.

(And don't be a stranger here. MB's concepts and principles are best kept fresh and vital with every successful adherent chipping in!)

Hi MBers, I thought I would give a quick update on how things are going with me and Trueform.

TF has been awesome, the best since very early in our marriage. I was having such a terrible time with resentment I eventually went to a shrink, who prescribed more meds, which I resented being pushed to. But after a week or two they seemed to help quite a bit. They aren't a cure but have sorta acted like a pressure release valve.

Our relationship is moving along wonderfully, but with one twist. I am struggling with SF, not a libido problem, but my hangups with TF. I conveniently fall asleep on the couch each night to avoid that walk upstairs. Hopefully it's just another stage and will pass.

I love you guys for the help you have generously offered. I have avoided this board because it has sometimes been a kind of trigger but it has also been a great help.

LftS;

How about starting a new bedtime ritual, which can be yours and Trueform's alone?

Maybe try something like:

After dinner/dishes/kids to bed, practice a little dance together. End it by just standing embracing, swaying a little. Then go up to bed.

Or, take a walk, holding hands, identify constellations. Then straight to bed.

Or, take turns massaging one body part each, each night.

Idea is to do something slightly physical that involves connecting with each other. But avoiding the couch.

You are following a pattern that is close to what I went through. Trying to deal with the infidelity but ending up needing medication. Problems with SF due to all the triggers and the negative mental images. Avoiding the forums because they, too, triggered me. Eventually coming back here because I needed to.

I suggest RH in dealing with the SF issues. Also, I expect that the forums will trigger you a lot less as time goes on, and there is great help to be had here that you can really use. I'm two and half years out from DDay, and everything is great for us now, largely thanks to MB. The forums never trigger me now.

Thanks for the advise and encouragement, I need it. I remember when I first began reading this board and saw estimates on recovery time being 2-5 years. I thought if this is true, we're toast. I suppose the Lord is teaching me patience along with the long list of other lessons.

People love to quote this all the time. It bugs me a bit, because while it may be strictly "true", it's not really useful. Dr. Harley is very specific about this:
1. You have his blessing if you seek a divorce after infidelity. **EDIT** But if you want to recover despite that option being totally justifiable...
2. ...if after two years of trying to recover your marriage is not better than it's ever been, your chances of success are very low and you should probably "hang up the cleats" (his words, not mine).

On the flip side:

3. He GUARANTEES your marriage will be better than it's ever been if you sign up for the courses (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi9000_courses.html). If it's not, he'll give you your money back and you get to keep all the materials.


So I rarely talk about "two to five years" when my wife and I talk to other couples about recovery from infidelity. Just the two years to evaluating whether your marriage is better than it's ever been, or not.

I read this thread a few months ago and this post made me think of it : Recovery takes two years?

Wow, that thread is ancient and predates the Great Forum Purge of '09... (an accident involving very old backups, if I recall correctly). Nice to see it recorded, though. Also doubly interesting to see people resurrecting the thread now that you've linked it

I don't want to be negative, but screw Valentines day

Uh-oh. What's going on?

Agreed! I hate this "holiday"

Yes, what's going on?

Hi gang, things are actually looking up. Just so damn slow. My FWW ruined every nice or special day with such ease. The worse ones for me are our anniversary and Valentines day. The day should be nice, not spent being vigilant to not LB.

Other than that we seem to be headed in the right direction and everyone here has helped. Thank you.

Hmmm. Being vigilant to not LoveBust is what CREATES a nice day.

It feels stressful to be so vigilant at first, but if you keep it up, by NEXT Valentine's Day, you will not only have a nice day, but being LoveBuster free will seem natural, and then you can focus on all of the romantic stuff. One day at a time...

My wife posted on her thread that if POSOM showed any commitment she was going to ambush me and marry him. I don't want to be married to a woman who is here because another man doesn't want her. The whole thing makes me sick.

She gave him what was mine and he didn't even ask for it. Me on the other hand, she makes beg and all I get is I'm trying. I need her to put back some of what she stole and gave to that SOB. She doesn't seem to want to understand that i'm not playing second string and she needs to help me.

Thanks for any help.

LFTS,

Where did WW post this, does WW know you are keeping tabs on her?

Is WW still in contact with OM?

If I recall correctly your WW only had an EA or was it a PA too?

My W once told me I was so lucky OM2 dumped her for another woman. Knowing you weren't the first round draft choice really hurts.

God Bless
Gamma

She posted it on her thread on the SA board last year. Yes she knows I read it.

I don't believe there is any contact.

She took a poly so I am 99% no PA.

I couldn't be happy with a woman like that.

It's concerning that you say she gave him what was yours. I understand that she's married to you and the expectation is that she is exclusive to you, but how you say it sounds like you feel entitled. For her to say she's working on it makes it appear that the burden for her arousal is on her. It seems to me that you're not following the program, but rather demanding that she be in love with you and behave as such. It won't work that way.

Late, from the last posts you made here, it's apparent that you aren't making a lot of progress in learning how to not love bust. Without following the program for recovery, I'm not really sure how much hope you can have. Last time you were here you were looking for justification in taking time off from protecting your wife. Now you are here dwelling on a mistake from a year ago, which is not going to do anything.

Your wife will likely not do her part to make you happy until you do your part to make her happy. There is no other way. If that is not sufficient for you, I suggest that you file for divorce.

Reading the conclusions in your responses it seems obvious I must not have communicated clearly. Thank you for your responses and sorry for wasting your time.

In that case, try to communicate more clearly, Late. I read your post this morning and I had trouble understanding what your were trying to describe.

You're still having problems and you will find help here to deal with them - but you have to state the problems clearly if we are to understand. What is going on, or not going on, day to day?

I think we understood you just fine, and I think we can help you, but it starts with having a talk about the parts of the program you are not carrying through with. One problem seems to be that when you post here and we try to start that conversation, you run off.

Markos,the biggest problems with the program for us has been UA, which has been both of our faults. The other is SF, which is my fault. Because of what has gone on I really don't want to touch her.

You are right I should post more but when i'm here I seem to focus on the negative and depressing stuff. Today has been really good and Trueform has been awesome. Wish me luck. BTW, I'm thinkin' about shaking loose some money for the coaching. I need help.

I'm also seeing you say a lot of disrespectful things about your wife. Eliminating those is one of the early steps of the program.

It was very concerning that at Valentine's Day you felt like you wanted a day off from having to protect your wife from love busters.

All of the UA and SF in the world won't help if love busters continue. You can't fill a love bank account if you are making withdrawals.

I don't know what the hell I posted for you to assume I LBing?

This:


Also the dragging mistakes of last year into the present.

Also, the fact that it sounds like you are getting mad at me for this is kind of a sign that you probably tend to act like that with your wife. Why so combative? If I'm mistaken, will verbally trouncing me make it better?

That's a pretty big one.

Wow! Why the nasty post LatefortheSky?

markos is trying to teach you MB.

Maybe you are right. Maybe because I'm not having any AO's I've tricked myself into thinking I'm not LBing.

All I can say is that I personally have done that. I way, WAY underestimated the level of vigilance required, and to be truthful, figuring out when I was being disrespectful completely stumped me for a very long time. I think a lot of my early posts here could be summarized as "I'm not doing anything wrong, so why is my wife so upset?" when the truth was I was absolutely a disrespectful (and angry) jerk.

Yes the other person is the judge of what's a lovebuster.

Hanging a wind chime in the garden is a lovebuster if my spouse finds it annoying - it doesn't matter what I think. You just say 'thanks for letting me know' and you fix it. If I come across as angry, it doesnt matter that I don't think I was or that I didn't mean to be - the other person has told me that is the effect on them.

You can't take a day off from vigilance because it is impossible to read the other person's mind. Marraige is a bit like a two-legged race or two people rowing a boat. It needs constant communication, vigilance and complaint to make sure you're on course. It will be an enjoyable day when you listen carefully, but cheerfully.

Thanks Markos, that is me. At least I see it now, I think, and can work on it. Resentment and pride are the main culprits,
so I have some work ahead of me. I didn't want to admit this even to myself.

You are right Indie, I took days off. I brought up the past. I now see how this has kept us in the mud.