I went to see OM2 on Tuesday, he was at the same event last year, his stuff was there but he was not. Has anyone here spoken to an OP after a large number of years and how did you open the conversation. I may revisit perhaps tomorrow.

Since I now know the exact sub-hobby of his there is a good chance I can find him on line, which might produce better results than a direct contact, and less bloodshed lol.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma, I can't figure out why you would want to. What good will it do all this time later?

Just lock him in a box (figuratively, of course) and throw away the key.

Rocketqueen

Gamma, I can't figure out why you would want to. What good will it do all this time later?

What is good is what is true.

Just lock him in a box (figuratively, of course) and throw away the key.

Problem is my wife put him in a keepsake box of cherished memories.

God Bless
Gamma

What is true is not what will necessarily come out of his mouth, do I wouldn't count on that.

Cherished memories? I think you give the POSOM more value than he actually had. Of course, I don't know what your wife is thinking. What does she say about him? Does she recognize what a piece of scum he was?

Yes! I refer to my WS's memories of the A as his "private box of chocolates" because he is a chocoholic in real life. (Hmmm....was he a chocoholic when with AP in fantasyland?)



Do any of them truly? How could a WS recognize the AP as the scum and waste they are if WSs are all in danger of the fog returning if/when they ever see the AP again? That would not make sense, would it? It appears to me that reality never fully enters the equation in the mindset of the WS, when thinking about the AP.

Maybe I am wrong, but I agree with Gamma; but not sure about contacting OM at this point in time. Will it cause you greater anger? You are bound to be disappointed by his lack of care or concern. Remember, they are all incredibly selfish and do not give a rats a-- for anyone else. Helpful? Do not get me started on how very insincere and unhelpful APs are.

FMT, you are early days here. Gamma is talking about an.OM from years ago! They are in recovery and moving on. So, no, it does no good to stir it up now. And you are right, the OM has no care or concern about what he did.

And yes, the wayward does eventually (some sooner than later) realize what trash their APs were. I know kiss does and has told me how much he hates her. I don't know why HE does, but I believe him. Once they are out of the fog, the realizations come. Gamma's wife should have left that fog a long time ago!

She probably does not, and never will.

This isn't required for recovery. In truth, this fact is why there is NC for life.


But, digging up a sexual relationship from before the marriage 20 years after the fact?

Yeah.

It doesn't take much to guess what Dr. Harley would say about that.


There will be no "closure" here, just picking a scar back into an open wound... a wound that has never been left to heal and constantly picked at by perpetual ruminations.

Some contextual information:

More context:

The only reason I would recommend talking to an OP would be to warn them off and make love bank deposits with your spouse by showing you want to win them.


I wouldn't expect you to find any truth this way. Even if this were a truthful person you were dealing with (doubtful), what are the odds he will even remember what you want to know?


Gamma, I am sorry for the pain this has caused you, but I believe the solution to this is to become your wife's most cherished memory, driving out the pleasure of the others through the contrast effect.

Not sure why you are picking on my here RQ. I read the thread and understood that Gamma was talking about an OM from a long ago A. I was merely agreeing with Gamma saying that his wife put OM "in a keepsake box of cherished memories." I totally relate to that fear.

I am not in R, but the title of the thread popped up on the main forum and curiosity lured me here. Mea Culpa...I'll go back to my corner.

...in a keepsake box of cherished memories.

Good! That's where old flames are supposed to be!

Puh-leeeeze, Gamma, tell us you're not trying to slide past us that you don't have your own little box buried with all your ex-crushes, -girlfriends, -lovers?

We ALL have them. They are a museum of the life-development that got us where we are as adults. I can recall my first kiss (Kathy, 4th Grade), first make-out session, first..... ...well, you get the point!

With one exception (Nina, who dumped me on VALENTINE'S DAY!), I can look back and smile at each individual relationship from my past. Bride has NO reason to be concerned with any of them...BECAUSE SHE IS EVERYTHING TO ME IN OUR PRESENT!

So, be EVERYTHING to your wife.

No.

Your wife has no reason to worry because they were not your OW that you had an affair with.

Gama, you have been here long enough to know that seeing the OM post affair is a crap shoot.

There is no reason for him to tell you the truth. He can. Though why?

Will he now have a conscience?

Will he realize your need for the truth?

Will the need to protect his butt keep him from telling you the truth?

Is he that much of a dirt bag that he will exaggerate or lie and make up things for his amusement?

Sounds as if your WW has given you too many I don't knows and I don't remembers, with plenty of we never did that's so that you doubt you have the truth now.

Bad to be left without the truth.

What has your WW done to make sure that you have the whole truth?

This thread is another example of why starting new threads is not always the way to go. No way to go to the first page and refresh one's memory of a posters story.

Too many posters. Too many details to remember.

RQ,

Sorry for taking so long to respond.

What is true is not what will necessarily come out of his mouth, do I wouldn't count on that.

Understood, however it's a bit like what the cops do asking each suspect in isolation from other suspects, each story will contain some truth and some contradiction.

I would also say that more data is better data. I haven't even gotten anything more than the most stained trickle truth, after much torture she says something like "we were just two lonely people" and thinks it is a major admission.

God Bless
Gamma

Does your WW know that you went to talk to OM2?

What is her take on this?

Yeah, fair enough, her concerns are probably reduced. But Bride is also smart enough to decline to expend any energy tracking down my ex-flames and "marking her turf" (Can females do that?), warding them off, but also keeping them in the front of my consciousness.

Gamma,

You've been here a long time. Have you ever thought about emailing Dr. Harley and asking him?


Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Aw honey, I wasn't picking on you. The main point is that talking to the AP to get info doesn't do any good. Waywards lie. APs lie. Don't matter if the affair was 2 days ago or 30 years ago.

A "keepsake box of cherished memories"? I don't see how any (*former) wayward can look back and consider their acts of deceit and betrayal as "cherished memories".

Road,

Does your WW know that you went to talk to OM2?

Nope hope going to see OM now with W we'll see how it goes

God Bless
Gamma

I am sorry to hear this. WW has had NC all this time and you want to have her meet OM2.

This breaking of NC is not a sound decision. I makes me worry that there is a down side worse then can be anticipated.

NeverGuessed,

Puh-leeeeze, Gamma, tell us you're not trying to slide past us that you don't have your own little box buried with all your ex-crushes, -girlfriends, -lovers?

Right and its true that I remember every girls scent the first time I kissed them, but I never took anyone from anyone else married or unmarried, with the exception of my SIL who had an EA one sided for me for 30 years.

We ALL have them. They are a museum of the life-development that got us where we are as adults. I can recall my first kiss (Kathy, 4th Grade), first make-out session, first..... blush...well, you get the point!

This was not a 4th grade crush, this was falling out of love with me and complete surrender to OM, now W then GF was in her 20's.

My W took 20 years to tell me that a brief encounter, a few years before me, involved not just kissing but light fondling. Not that I held that against W in any way, but it does illustrate the embarrassment and reluctance my W has about coming clean.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma, what do you want to say to him? In broad terms, what do you want to know?

SC,

I want to ask him for his version of the events from before I was married.

The meeting didn't go as I thought, but did not disappoint. OM stopped dead in his tracks, "wifes name!!" big hug. He looked very old according to my W.

God Bless
Gamma

You HUGGED him?? Is that what you planned to accomplish? And you met him with your wife there?

MB,

No he hugged my W.

God Bless
Gamma

Okay, then!

Exactly what pat of "No Contact for Life" did you confuse with "Arrange a grope session between the APs"?

NG,

Had to get my W into some form of conflict, she had been too happy with our recovered sexless marriage and saw no reason to ever tell me the truth.

God Bless
Gamma

So your WW got a hug.

Post hug on the car ride home what did WW have to say?

How did you get your WW agree to see OM with you?

What did you learn and or get from this meeting with the OM?

Did WW know about this meeting before it happened?

Did WW help you find the OM?

These questions are leading to the reliability of what the OM told you. For how do you know if WW pre warned the OM about this meeting to get WW and OM stories to match up?

TR,

Post hug on the car ride home what did WW have to say?

She sensed I was upset, asked me if her hugging OM was what was bothering me. Has been rather friendly since, even giving kisses without being prompted, WHY???!!!

How did you get your WW agree to see OM with you?

Didn't ask her or tell her, I knew OM had been to the same show last year and took my chances that he was going to be there at this exact time.

Did WW help you find the OM?

Not to my knowledge I don't believe she is clever enough on the computer to have outflaked me in cooperation with OM, the surprise was genuine.

These questions are leading to the reliability of what the OM told you. For how do you know if WW pre warned the OM about this meeting to get WW and OM stories to match up?

The OM told me very little it was over quickly the OM took off, and my W wanted to leave.

She denied even more than before, now claiming complete amnesia, although this morning she admitted to 20% or so of what she admitted to previously. Thats ok OM is more in the cross hairs now.

God Bless
Gamma

Did you ever poly your WW?

What was that 20% of new info worth it?

What did the OM own up to doing?

Is this the OM from before you were married?

And this meeting was a manipulation to try to get her into conflict so you could address the problem of SF? I don't think that follows MB principles. If she is okay with a sexless marriage while you are not and respectful requests and meeting her needs (make sure you are) don't get you what you need, then you may need to call it quits. Not play with fire.

Have you ever talked with Dr. Harley? I think a radio session with him may be quite good for you. There's something not right here, and maybe you assume and judge how your wife thinks and feels more than you realize, which will block you from having a passionate marriage.

TR,

Did you ever poly your WW?

Would love to don't think she could overcome the shame and embarrassment, even if she agreed.

What was that 20% of new info worth it?

It was 20% of the 100% I got before, not only was it nothing new, but she only revealed the 20% Monday morning, on Sunday she claimed to remember 0% ZERO!

But yes finding out that W has become even more closed off/ in denial was very much worth finding out.

What did the OM own up to doing?

Nothing, barely got to speak with OM before he split, but I know now exactly what he looks like.

God Bless
Gamma

LL,

Is this the OM from before you were married?

Yes, this is OM2 from before my wedding.

And this meeting was a manipulation to try to get her into conflict so you could address the problem of SF?

Basically just to get some honesty from W about what happened, a side effect of that might be more or sincere SF.


Have you ever talked with Dr. Harley? I think a radio session with him may be quite good for you. There's something not right here, and maybe you assume and judge how your wife thinks and feels more than you realize, which will block you from having a passionate marriage.

Yes I've been considering emailing the Harleys.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma,

Have you emailed Dr. Harley?

Wanting to know the truth has haunted me for over 30 years. So I understand your need to know your truth.

Though getting the truth does not seem connected to getting your WW to give you SF.

What your doing does not seem to have any value to getting SF.

Oh my goodness... this OM is from 1988/89 and FROM BEFORE YOU WERE MARRIED?????

I can only say how sick this seems to have him drive his wife to INTENTIONALLY meet this person and then get cross examined for what she remembers... My husband and I got married in 1990 and I can't even tell you all the details from our honeymoon..... I love him desperately, but my middle age mind is starting to play tricks on me... And then to be questioned about this OM... talk about massive, massive love bank withdrawals.. To be honest, if you pulled this stunt on me, I would be gone in a heart beat... What in the world was the point??? Other than to make her feel worthless and guilty.... I just don't get this. Dr. Harley wouldn't recommend this at all. For one thing, I'm not sure he would even count this OM since it happened before you were married..

You ought to be making massive love bank deposits... this stunt was a HUGE withdrawal.

TR,

Wanting to know the truth has haunted me for over 30 years. So I understand your need to know your truth.

Though getting the truth does not seem connected to getting your WW to give you SF.

What your doing does not seem to have any value to getting SF.

Some posters did say they got more or better SF after their WWs confessed. Mostly it seemed those with WWs that felt guilty about their past affairs and lived in fears of revelation, or had told a pile of lies through the years, Lightsout for example. But yes it should not be the primary goal.

Have you ever gotten to speak with OM in your case, I think previously you said your WW forgot his name, and that you don't even know who he is?

God Bless
Gamma

Tiredwife,

My husband and I got married in 1990 and I can't even tell you all the details from our honeymoon.....

Do you really think a WW can forget ALL THE DETAILS of falling in love with someone? I mean WW had the enjoyment and intensity of new love with OM2.

Are you saying you would not remember an affair if you had had one?

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma,

Did you email Dr. Harley?

BH,

Did you email Dr. Harley?

Need an audience with OM2 first.

God Bless
Gamma

Dude, you are SO FAR off-track that you wouldn't recognize the "better marriage path" if you tripped over it!

But, in full disclosure, I'll keep reading this thread for the entertainment potential!

So, are you into Self Torture or what?

I don't get it.

...living in the past = Nothing good.

I can only speak for myself, but my affair ended over five years ago and if my H started asking for details such as times, places, a play-by-play of exactly what happened, I definitely wouldn't be able to remember everything. Five years have passed after all, and my memory just isn't that good.

I have no idea how you would expect your wife to remember every single detail of everything that happened twenty years ago. I would never be able to do that.

What's the point anyway? You know the important stuff. You know she had a relationship with someone other than you, which really wasn't an affair since you weren't even married yet when this relationship occurred. You know in the end that she chose you over him.

Why do you constantly need to pick at old scabs Gamma? What on earth do you hope to accomplish by doing that?

Didn't you already get enough of an audience with him?

Why is this necessary before you write Dr. Harley, especially if one of the questions he might answer is this one about talking with OM2? It's like you're giving pre-marriage OM control. If you manipulate another situation to bump into him, you'll start looking like a stalker.

Gamma,

I don't understand this.

Why the hesitation on contacting Dr. Harley?

Writer1,

I have no idea how you would expect your wife to remember every single detail of everything that happened twenty years ago. I would never be able to do that.

I'm not asking W to REMEMBER EVERYTHING, but at this time W claims to have FORGOTTEN EVERYTHING, even everything she told me before.

I don't know if it was kissing/oral/etc, I have a very difficult time believing she could have forgotten what kinds of activities happened.

Yes I believe if oral then she might not remember was it 11 or 13 times, or that she put on lipstick for him, or etc.

What's the point anyway? You know the important stuff. You know she had a relationship with someone other than you, which really wasn't an affair since you weren't even married yet when this relationship occurred. You know in the end that she chose you over him.

I think this is called radical honesty.

LOL no one gave me a single sentence of "what to say to OM2"!

God Bless
Gamma

If your wife already told you what happened previously, why do you feel the need to continuously rehash this for the rest of your life?

And what part of Dr. Harley's plan includes taking your wife to meet with the OM after 20 years?

Know very little about the whole episode. I do not know the OM name. So as you can see I never met the OM let alone seen him or a photo of him.

So your WW cheated on you with OM2 while you were dating her? I don't remember, you found out before or after you married WW?

That is because even if I could come up with the best questions for you to ask the OM. There is no guarantee that the OM would be honest and give you the full truth.

TR,

Know very little about the whole episode. I do not know the OM name. So as you can see I never met the OM let alone seen him or a photo of him.

And your W thinks that should sit well with you? He could be living in your neighborhood. Can you get her a polygraph?

So your WW cheated on you with OM2 while you were dating her? I don't remember, you found out before or after you married WW?

Yes while I was dating her, if it had be before I was dating her I would not have been bothered in the least, she never broke up with me either not even once.

She told me about it before we got married, actually from her emotional state I think she was dumped by OM for his now W, but never gave me the complete story, only fragments.

God Bless
Gamma

Basically, this wasn't an affair. It happened before you got married. She told you about the relationship with this other man after the relationship ended and you chose to marry her anyway. What's the problem?

I did not find out about my husband's first affair for 22 years; I did not find out that he had a ONS for 18 years and I did not find out that his third affair was physical for 4 years. Yes, I know "the important stuff," but I do best when I know DETAILS. Many of the details were lost over the decades; there are things that I NEED to know that I will NEVER know. I have been able to "let go" of the things I know and understand; the things I can never know haunt me, a quarter of a century after they happened.

A polygraph will not help, as my husband genuinely doesn't remember and my questions are not all "polygraph-able."

Also, I had an opportunity to speak with OW #3 while the affair was active, and I did not. I regret my silence/lack of courage to this day.

Now, I can't speak to her because it would be "contact."

So, I'm left to play the part of Joseph in the parable of the incomplete puzzle. My husband completed the puzzle, but tossed it away years ago, and now a significant number of pieces are forever missing or destroyed.

To continue the symbolism, I have enough pieces to realize the puzzle is a mountain, but I have no idea what characteristics the mountain has.

I think those of us who find out about affairs after many years have issues that not everyone shares, as we can never get the radical honesty many of us need and can never be sure where genuine forgetting ends and convenient forgetting begins.

No advice, Gamma, but I think I get what you are going through.

Best wishes -

BV

BV,

The difference is, Gamma's wife didn't have an affair. They weren't even married when this other relationship happened. And she told him about it before he married her. He decided to marry her anyway. Now, twenty years later, he wants to continually rehash an issue that should have been laid to rest decades ago. He obviously had enough information to go ahead and marry his wife and build an entire life with her. I'm just curious as to why he continues to dig up these closet skeletons after so much time has passed. I have no idea what he's hoping to accomplish by doing this. It certainly goes against everything Dr. Harley advises about not constantly bringing up the affair.

Gamma, two of the things that spouses owe each other are CARE and PROTECTION. Your petty little game of "Gotcha!" with your wife flies in the face of both of those.

This exercise was immature, cruel and damaging to your wife and your marriage.

You need not tell me you disagree with me; sadly, your twisted view of what you are "owed" has evidently rendered this action acceptable to you. More's the pity......

There is a movie that came out in the 90's called Strange Days that is about a drug dealer... the drug he deals is called "playback." It is used by one person attaching a device to their head which records all of their sensory input during an event. The "user" attaches the device to their head, and plays back the event, feeling everything the recording subject felt during the experience.

The dealer has a box of tapes he made while with his ex-girlfriend - even though she has left him for another man, he kept the tapes and plays them back continuously. He is paralyzed and unable to move on.

This really, really fits a part of why not talking about the affair, and no contact for life are so important.

Memory requires context for recall, and that context often has to come from the present somehow.

3 years in, I don't particularly remember what the OM looks like - I know general features, but I don't have a clear picture to recall.

So, any triggers are whatnot are somewhat blunted by the fact that I don't have a clear picture of his face anymore.


Going back to the movie, there is a point where the dealer, Lenny, is confronted by a friend about his addiction;

"Memories are supposed to fade, Lenny. They're built like that for a reason."

Stop the playback.

Cheating is cheating. You are in an exclusive relationship and you date someone else that is cheating.

To argue about that it is not an affair, not infidelity, because you were not married is baloney.

You promised and were promised exclusivity.

Just hiding behind words that ending an un born child's life is abortion not murder.

Actually, according to Dr. Harley, cheating before marriage is not considered an affair. He has stated that on numerous occasions. True exclusivity in a relationship only comes after the marital vows are taken. Prior to that, when dating, people are free agents. In fact, Dr. Harley encourages singles to date a lot of people, since that is the best way to figure out exactly who meets your needs the best and who you would like to spend the rest of your life with.

Dr Harley is right that people should date as many people as they like.

However once people decide to be exclusive then the are no longer free agents. The commitment is not for life but a commitment was made to be monogamous.

When the time to end such a relationship they are free to do so. It will be upsetting to the dumpee. Though the dumper never made a life time commitment. The Dumper did commit and pledge to be faithful for the whole length of the relationship.

However they are not free to start dating others before they end their committed relationship. That is cheating, unfaithful, infidelity, betraying, and any other word that means they cheated on their beloved.

**EDIT**

If that's the way you feel Road, then why do you continue hanging around Dr. Harley's site?

TR,

If we listen to the Dr H on the radio, he never claims to be perfect, he seems to listen carefully to the circumstances, but is not dogmatic about it, he is more nuanced. People sometimes have an inflexible view of his principles.

God Bless
Gamma

I have heard Dr. Harley say multiple times that he encourages people to write him when they disagree with him.

So how about it TheRoad? Why don't you write Dr. Harley and tell him you think he is wrong on this?

I did contact OM and I believe it was cathartic. I did not ask questions. I told him to begin with, it was just to clear the board. The ahole did ask to say something....he apologized and asked forgiveness, promised to never again contact my wife. He also told me he admired my courage, because he didn't think he would be strong enough to try to restore his marriage were the roles reversed.

The above coupled with what I got off my chest was very helpful, I think.

That's easy to defeat by writing the radio show.

/shrug

LftS, your OM was not a relic of a relationship that ended many, many years previously!

An active affair can be effectively attacked by the BH confronting POSOM (as in my own case). But tracking down/dredging up long-past, LB$-depleted, desiccated OMs makes ZERO sense.

How well does it work in all those "Mummy" movies?

Dr. Harley would agree with you on contacting OM during an active affair.
"I Encourage BHs to Confront OM" Dr. Harley

I 3rd it or maybe 4th this (I've lost count).

How easy it is to send off an email?

Gamma,

Reading here my view is that if you contact this OM this many years after the incident then it will make you look bad in every way. This man got with your then girlfriend fully knowing she was yours then tossed her aside when he was done, you chose to marry her and build a life with her knowing about this, yet now you want to go ask questions and effectively telling the already morally corrupt man that your marriage is still struggling x amount if years after the incident?? Why would you give him any importance at all all after all these years??

If you want to get the full details and further information about what your wife did with this man then have her take a polygraph, it will certainly be less humiliating than approaching the OM after all this time.

And who says he remembers anything about it either?? After all he threw her away as soon as he could, not really an ideal candidate to remember details of the encounter now is he?

melodylane jr, Dr H gives up a lot of free time to the people that come here. I think that is great. To me to contact him on this matter would be an imposition. His work load is high enough as it is.

People that were dating in an exclusive relationship. They got cheated on. The pain of their betrayal is real. They did not have to have a marriage certificate to feel the pain from being cheated on.

To say their partner did not have an affair, unfaithful, because they were not married, thus they can not feel the pain from the infidelity is to be in denial.

To be in a non committed relationship were you both are made aware that at least one of the two wants to still play the field then that would not be cheating.

**EDIT**

***EDIT***

Gamma, now I understand your need for the truth.

You do not want to have gaps in the story filled.

You want to stay to your WW that you banged OM 1, Banged OM 2....

So you can say to your WW you had SF with the OM. You can have SF. Then you can have SF with me.

That is not the way you are going to get your WW to put out for you.

You and your WW have issues that need professional help. Email Dr Harley.

**EDIT** I question (repeatedly) everything I hear. In fact, I've been given the 2-week MB vacation a few times for it.

But what Gamma is doing makes absolutely no sense to anyone other than him and you apparently.

Where is the sense in taking his wife to see the OM after more than 20 years? And letting them hug, right in front of him? He's practically putting a bow on his wife and giving her as a present to the OM. I'm simply curious as to what he hopes to accomplish by doing that.

It seems to me that Gamma isn't remotely interested in having a good marriage. No Contact with former lovers is something that Dr. Harley has never wavered on to my knowledge.

Writer1

Carefully reread this post. Sorry if my meaning was not clear. I support every BH's need to get every question answered by his WW.

I am calling Gamma out because he is not looking to get the truth to know the whole story. He wants his WW to say she did this with OM1, that with OM2, done that with OM3, been there with OM4, and got the stains on her T shirt with OM5.

With the sole purpose to tell his WW you did all that with them now time to do all that with me, so WW go put on a fresh T shirt now.

That is not how to get his WW to give him SF. He needs to email Dr Harley.

I agree.

How about it Gamma? Will you email Dr. Harley? Are you interested in having a good marriage?

Well, what a wonderfully vile and disrespectful thing to say. It sure makes whatever point you are attempting to support seem all that more important.


So, let's examine the ingredients of **EDIT** so to speak.



First and foremost; the Love Bank. Certainly sounds like sugary, powdery goodness, right? Yet, this is just a simplified analogy for a concept that Dr. Harley is not alone in observing - that love is simply a collection of positive memory associations with a particular person.

Then, you can look at the policy of Undivided Attention, explained in the article "Together when you are the happiest." Again, this isn't something Dr. Harley magically produced from his rectum after a high-fiber day. No, there is a pyschological term for this called the Misatribution of Arousal.

Lastly, we can look at what is pertinent to this thread; trauma, memory, and recall - and how those things effect the previous two points.

You know what people who have suffered a trauma are driven nuts by? People constantly bringing it up to them, even when done so in a caring manner. "I'm so sorry for your loss" has an expiration date - it goes from comfort to "Thanks for reminding me, jerk!" Even events stored in long-term memory need refreshers to remain strong and vivid memories; use-it-or-lose-it. They require context, and they can even be changed by the context of the moment they are recalled, and the context of the current moment can also effect what is recalled. Certain strong contexts (sights, sounds, smells, emotions) can "trigger" recall of associated memories. Recall of associated memories can "trigger" an emotion.

Right? Ok.

So, in the event of infidelity, there are obviously some strong contextual associations, and a strong response to memories being triggered. In essence, a betrayed spouse recalling infidelity is keeping themself in a perpetual state of trauma. And, by willfully continuing recall, they are keeping that memory and the associations strong and fresh. And those memories and associated contextual emotions further trigger other memories contextually associated with the triggered emotion.

In effect, by constantly ruminating about details of an affair, a betrayed spouse is willfully keeping themselves out of love with their spouse.

That's fine. That's your choice. But, for the love of Pete... get a divorce then. If you have no intention of having a loving, romantic marriage with the person that betrayed you, cut freaking bait. Why the hell would you want to enact such an exercise in self-torture? It's not noble, nor admirable. It's not "good for the kids." It's stupid, and foolish, and cruel.

"Getting all the details" sounds like a fantastic justification, but... we aren't really interested in the details. The investigation into details is a self-soothing practice, looking for the cracks in whatever wonder drew our spouse away from us. Trying to understand "why?" It's as useless an exercise as attempting to make a wayward "get it."

The only supportable reason for anything even near this is if the infidelity had just been discovered. And even then, exposure would likely be suggested, but this was resuming contact. This was getting a Vietnam Vet to tell you about the time his buddy's guts got blown out next to him.

"BS getting all the details" is never going to be the advice this late in the game.

So, none of that is based on blind, unquestioning faith and following, so go drink your own damned Kool Aid.

HHH:

I'm sorry, but this is sick. You need help.

TR,

Gamma, now I understand your need for the truth. You do not want to have gaps in the story filled.

Yes I very much do, because so many aspects of a relationship die in an affair, there are also may aspects to recovery. There are multiple goals here, and multiple unknown consequences.

I'm fairly sure WW did NOT bang OM1 btw, there was also a more shadowy co-worker of OM2 and myself that my W became attracted to around the time of OM2, I don't mention this often since it muddies the discussion.

You want to stay to your WW that you banged OM 1, Banged OM 2....So you can say to your WW you had SF with the OM. You can have SF. Then you can have SF with me. That is not the way you are going to get your WW to put out for you.

I've never coerced or guilted my WW into SF ever, I believe no mean no. I would hope that her coming clean makes our relationship more intimate, but I have no illusions that it definitely will.

God Bless
Gamma

Discontinue the debate over personal agreement with MB, and get back to advising this poster consistent with MB principles.

Writer1,

Where is the sense in taking his wife to see the OM after more than 20 years? And letting them hug, right in front of him? He's practically putting a bow on his wife and giving her as a present to the OM. I'm simply curious as to what he hopes to accomplish by doing that.

Well if OM and WW jumped into OMs car that night and took off, then I had my answer, and a very definite course of action.

If WW broke down on the way home and confessed I had my answer.

As it was was WW acted guilty and apologetic, which tells something too.

That she now claimed to remember only a small percentage of what she had told me before tells me that I need to speak with OM and some of the other witnesses.

God Bless
Gamma

It's been 20 years. What are you hoping they might be able to remember? I remember very few details of the things I did 20 years ago. I suspect the reason why your wife remembers less than she did the first time she confessed all of this to you is because more time has passed since that first confession.

Why don't you stop dredging up ancient history and start focusing on making your marriage stronger today? Talking to the OM and taking your wife to see him will not accomplish that.

Writer1,

I can tell you this, OM likely remembers more now than WW, from his emotional reaction to seeing WW again. Men feel pride in their conquests while women are more likely to see their surrenders as regretful and things to be forgotten or denied.

And whatever happened to the concept of radical honesty, I'm sure she would remember if it was only kissing, or other activities, can anyone really forget that they had sex?

God Bless
Gamma

My H remembers very few of the details of his affair that occurred early in our marriage.

And even if the OM does remember, what makes you think he will tell you the truth?

What is it that you think you don't already know about this long-ago relationship that you believe might have an effect on your current marriage?

Writer1,

What is it that you think you don't already know about this long-ago relationship that you believe might have an effect on your current marriage?

She has never even admitted to how sexual it was! Through the years my W has admitted to random facts, greatly pained in doing so, this will need to be resolved.

One of the things my W says about a certain activity is that it is "dangerous" implying that she is worried about giving me HPV and potentially cancer.

God Bless
Gamma

If all you're worried about is catching something, your wife can go to the doctor and be tested for the HPV virus and other STD's. That wouldn't require you to have any contact with the OM whatsoever.

Writer1,

It is a tacit admission of mucus membrane to mucus membrane contact! Of one kind or another.

If I had ever had such contact while married or dating W, I would have quarantined myself from my W and given her the option to discontinue sex and or divorce me.

God Bless
Gamma

I have no idea what this means, but if you've been married to your wife for 20 years, had children with her, and been intimate, it's highly unlikely you're going to catch anything you don't already have.

Writer1,

Well your mucus membranes are the lips, nipples, genitals and anus. This is how almost all STDs are spread or by bodily fluids, and I don't think she drinks them.

God Bless
Gamma

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm fairly certain you have probably come into contact with these areas of your wife's body. If you haven't caught something by doing so yet, after 20 years, I'd say you're probably safe. But if you have any doubts, STD testing isn't difficult and is generally reliable.

Writer1,

Yes I have come into contact with those areas, and that statement may indicate that W has had some form of STD risky mm to mm contact perhaps 5 years ago rather than 20 years ago.

She also has just become aware of the long term risks associated with HPV and the fact that there is no test for males.

God Bless
Gamma

Has your wife been tested for HPV and other STD's?

Most cases of HPV clear on their own and cause no long-lasting effects.

Also, if you're concerned, there is a vaccine and it is available to both men and women.

Do you believe this occurred with OM2 within the past 5 years?

Have you and your wife had sex in the past 5 years?

Unless you have reason to believe your wife was with OM2 within the past 5 years, I don't see what this has to do with you recently contacting this OM and taking your wife to see him.

Is your wife onboard with MB?

Do you have passwords to her computer, a key logger, and access to her cell phone?

Writer1,

Most likely what she has I have, I understand the medical aspects, the point is that she is concerned about it. This is something I was never concerned about as I never had contact with anyone else while I was dating my W or married.

HPV is very serious however in that it is being implicated more and more as a cause of cancer, head, neck, mouth throat, etc.

I don't believe she has had contact with OM2 since the time we saw him, before last week, perhaps it was 11? or so years ago.

Yes we have had full sex 2 years ago and in a one way sense continue to have sex, my pleasure only.

God Bless
Gamma

My question is still, what do you hope to gain by contacting the OM after all these years? If you don't have any reason to believe your wife has been in contact with him, why are you opening this Pandora's Box now?

Do you understand the concept of NC for life with former lovers/affair partners?

I did not say or infer that you have coerced your WW for SF.

You have said that your WW will not put out for you. You are not happy that you are not having your need for SF met by your WW. Having your WW Pearl Harbored into meeting the OM is not going to get your WW to open her love bank or open anything else to you.

Stop writing here and write to Dr H.

She is withdrawn, and it's because of how you treat her, not because you don't know enough details of her relationship before you were married.

Stop looking for excuses as for why she isn't performing to your specs, and start paying attention to giving her extraordinary care. Look at yourself.

Writer1,

My question is still, what do you hope to gain by contacting the OM after all these years? If you don't have any reason to believe your wife has been in contact with him, why are you opening this Pandora's Box now?

I wanted W to tell me the truth about what happened prompt her memory, I wanted to see OMs reaction, I wanted to see what OM looked like now, I wanted to gain some information about how to contact OM, most of what I went after I got.

Contacting OM may provide me with the answers my W will not provide, who knows perhaps he has love letters or photos he might part with perhaps for a fee lol.

Do you understand the concept of NC for life with former lovers/affair partners?

Yes, I didn't know what else to do with W as she is shut up tighter than a clam, and as I said before if they fell back in love I had my answer.

Seriously if she gave OM oral does anyone think that could be forgotten???

God Bless
Gamma

So if I understand your theory correctly, uncovering past events in your mind, it is going to have an effect on your current SF with her? Looking up old flames is going to work to you solving your problem??

I have heard Dr. Harley discuss reluctant spouses concerning SF on the radio program several times a month...He does not recommend your tactic. Typically, he gets to the root of how to make the experience ENJOYABLE for the reluctant spouse.

Do you think these things you are doing are making LB deposits? Aren't these things pushing her further away and less likely to want sex?

In your mind is SF your only problem in the M?

Why doesn't she enjoy SF with you? What can you both do together to do it in a way that she enjoys?

This statement makes no sense. Dr. Harley has repeatedly said that NC is recommended because there is ALWAYS a chance that the affair could be rekindled if contact is resumed between the affair partners. So what answer would that give you? It would only tell you that, like every other wayward, your wife is prone to rekindling those feelings if she comes into contact with her affair partner again. But that's already a given for all waywards. You prove nothing by exposing her to that temptation again.

And I have no idea if your wife would remember having oral sex with the OM 20 years ago. What difference would it make at this point now? You know she was involved in a relationship with him before you were married. She chose to end that relationship and spend her life with you. You chose to forgive her actions and marry her anyway.

Why not focus on having a better marriage today?

I can almost guarantee you that your wife's reluctance to have SF with you today has nothing to do with an OM from 20 years ago and everything to do with the fact that she isn't in love with you today because you are committing too many LB's (such as constantly bringing up affairs from the past and exposing her to the OM) and you aren't doing enough to meet her EN's.

You want a solution to your problem? Stop committing LB's, start meeting your wife's needs, and get in the required UA time every week. These actions will do so much more to improve your marriage (and therefore, your sex life) than childish things like arranging a meeting between your wife and a former lover from 20 years ago ever could.

Writer1, it has been 5 years since your PA. So are you saying you do not remember what you and your OM did. How the line was crossed. Why you did not chose to use protection?

I do not want answers. I just want to know if you can not remember these things?

QFT.
EXCELLENT post, writer.

Gamma, you are so messed up.

The reasons you are giving for your latest attempt at recovery are not MB.

The only thing you are doing that is MB is posting on the MB forum.

I wish you could see how you are shooting yourself in the foot, hand, leg, head, everywhere but the recovery target.

Contact Dr Harley.

Have you noticed that everyone posting here are all in agreement.

That what you are doing is wrong.

Quite honestly, I don't think about these things anymore and my H doesn't ask about them either. Our marriage is in recovery and we'd both like to keep it that way. Dwelling on the past does nothing to improve our marriage today.

Oh, I see. You want her to happily give you oral sex. You use all sorts of reasons why she should do it: because it would prove to you that her SF is sincere, that since she did it before she shouldn't have problems with it now, etc. You will try anything, for as long as it takes, that might convince her that that's what she's supposed to do for you until you get your deserved sex act.

How often does your desire for oral sex come up in conversation with your wife?

Have you seen these?

Resentment Type A and Type B
Recovery is not Complete if Resentment Lingers

Are you going to contact Dr. Harley?

LifetimeLearner,

She is withdrawn, and it's because of how you treat her, not because you don't know enough details of her relationship before you were married.

W has said on a number of occasions that she is very happy with our marriage now, this was not true before MB.

I do not treat her poorly. W readily say that I attend to her needs, but she also admits that she often puts me last , this was also true pre-MB.

Oh, I see. You want her to happily give you oral sex. You use all sorts of reasons why she should do it: because it would prove to you that her SF is sincere, that since she did it before she shouldn't have problems with it now, etc. You will try anything, for as long as it takes, that might convince her that that's what she's supposed to do for you until you get your deserved sex act.

I do not guilt or pressure W in any way to do anything not to her liking.

How often does your desire for oral sex come up in conversation with your wife?

About 2 times a year I talk about it seriously with her, although she wants to change the subject very quickly after a short answer. Answers have included it's dangerous because of HPV, I never liked oral, she used to look at porn cartoons when she was young, etc. She has a habit of giving strange and inconsistent answers when she is lying.

God Bless
Gamma

OK....so she is NOT enthusiastic about oral sex right?

I am unclear how her seeing OM and "remembering" if she gave him oral or not would make her enthusiastic about it suddenly?


Seriously, yes you and your FWW have problems, your need for SF is not being met. This stuff she is giving you suddenly about HPV is nonsense, but again has nothing to do with OM and if oral occurred or not.

Has you wife maybe developed an aversion? DO you make sure SF is enjoyable for her? What can you do to meet her needs better? For sure not by badgering her for details about past relationships, or affairs, or by arranging for her to "run into" old flame. Bad plan....all of it.

How much UA time are you guys getting? What about IC? Clearly RH is NOT being followed here. Why are you and your wife having communication problems?

Gamma,

Have you and your wife filled out the EN questionnaire lately? What are your wife's top EN's?

How much UA time do you get every week?

If your wife has made it clear that she isn't comfortable performing oral sex, why do you continue to bring it up? Continuing to bring up something that she has made it clear she does not want to do is in fact a form of pressure.

On the contrary, you are very disrespectful.
And taking her on a surprise meetup with OM was the height of disrespect.

Dear Gamma, you ARE guilting/pressuring your wife.

I understand your frustration, but this (obviously) does not work. She does not want it, you keep on asking for it.

Continuing to ask for it is a major LB. I can't imagine her being in love with you any longer, it would built such resentment to keep on asking for it 2x a year.

Tisme,

OK....so she is NOT enthusiastic about oral sex right?

That's correct her enthusiasm ended around the time of OM2 along with her enthusiasm for kissing.

I am unclear how her seeing OM and "remembering" if she gave him oral or not would make her enthusiastic about it suddenly?

I don't believe it will make her want oral, but this is first about establishing a baseline of historical honesty. I've gone without oral for about a decade I suppose, and before that 20+ years without the faintest desire from W for it. If oral was the determining factor in my marriage I would have divorced or perhaps cheated a long time ago.

And in some ways honesty is the ultimate just compensation isn't it?

God Bless
Gamma

Pineneedle,

Dear Gamma, you ARE guilting/pressuring your wife.

I understand your frustration, but this (obviously) does not work. She does not want it, you keep on asking for it.

Continuing to ask for it is a major LB. I can't imagine her being in love with you any longer, it would built such resentment to keep on asking for it 2x a year.

Actually I don't ask for it, I ask why she does not want to give it, there is a great difference. The answers vary over time, but that is usually true of someone who wishes to blunt the truth.

God Bless
Gamma

That is a disrespectful judgement of your wife to say she is trying to blunt the truth.

Yeah, it might serve her better if she stuck with the answer of she doesn't want to every time you asked, but it hasn't stopped you from asking, so she tried something else. Is "no" an option for her? Is there an answer she could give you that would finally stop you from asking it again while also accepting a "no?"

I still think you would greatly benefit from talking with Dr. Harley. Will you email him?

Why would you continue to ask your wife why she doesn't want to do something? What difference does it make? The reason she doesn't want to do it is because she doesn't.

It would be a huge LB for me if my H continuously badgered me for years as to why I didn't feel comfortable performing a specific sexual act.

Instead of focusing on the past, and on what your wife doesn't want to do, why don't you focus on the present and find things to do that will be mutually enjoyable?

Dear Gamma:

Following your thread with interest, as it reflects issues/feelings I have -

My husband shared activities with OW he has never shared with me. He went out with one of them with friends. I have never met these friends. He rarely sees these friends socially anymore, so meeting them is pointless, but it irks me that the OW got to go out in a group (H was "proud" to be seen with her, because of her appearance) and I never did.

With another OW, he went into a large city with her for work purposes and spontaneously took a tour of a TV station and had lunch at a (relatively) expensive restaurant. This was during a 10-year period where we only went out to eat once a year and he would not spring for a take-out pizza from the local pizzeria on a Friday night. We do eat out quite a bit now, but finding that receipt years ago was a slap in the face.

And finally (this one bothers me the most), he would invite his last OW out to have a drink and sit and talk with her over a glass of wine. He'd also share a bottle of wine with her at dinner.

I'd like to do this, too, but my husband is not enthusiastic. Yes, there are things we enjoy doing together, but I want to do this PARTICULAR thing BECAUSE he did it with OW. I would like memories of us to replace memories of the OW.

He does NOT want to BECAUSE he did it with the OW. Things we do together are in a "box" of things we do; things he did with the OW are in a "box" of things he did with her.

So, can I replace the memories? No. Can I bring up the topic? No. He stated he's not enthusiastic and then I'm "bringing up the past."

I want him to ENJOY doing THIS ONE PARTICULAR THING with me, but he WILL NOT.

Sucks.

Gamma, I understand the protests on your thread, but, I GET IT.

BV (not recovered; no MB endorsement of the statements above implied or even likely)

Interesting.


I could make the same complaints... before infidelity ever entered the picture.

The problem was, we hadn't focused on being each other's favorite recreational companions. Instead, a lot of activities with friends and/or family members occurred.

True, but when the favorite recreational companion is also the favorite sexual and romantic companion, puts a whole 'nother spin on it, doesn't it?

I apologize for the thread-jack -

BV

Not really, because you can make your spouse all of those things if you work the program.

Sorry - last one -

I think I'd have recovered my marriage if my H's favorite recreational companion was his brother and his favorite recreation activity was a sport instead of an OW and sex....

BV (REALLY stopping now....)

Have you seen this?
Using Resentment as Punishment

Gamma: �And in some ways honesty is the ultimate just compensation isn't it?�

This is the crux of the matter. The missing EN is RH, not OS. You have an EN for RH. Unfulfilled OS is mere insult added to injury. Salt in the wound. Lack of OS is misdirected resentment.

You are not getting your current top EN for RH met. You cannot even get an honest answer as to why your adulteress will not meet your EN for RH.

Gamma, I feel your frustration. Or, I should say, I used to. I don�t actually care anymore. I have no ENs any adulteress could ever meet. Perhaps I should say the only EN I have is for a wife who never committed adultery. Perhaps that is also your fundamental need.

My wife�s VLTA lasted 10 years. She did many, many unique things with dirt bag love of her life she would not and will not do with me. Sexual and otherwise, including spending a ton of $ on him. Getting answers to my questions would take as long as the adultery lasted. I don�t have the patience. What to do? Write it off and suppress the frustration? D?

MB methods ended the VLTA quite handily, but they have not helped me internally. I find it interesting that when I say this people here say I am not getting something I need. But when you say basically the same thing it�s your entire fault. The contradictions are obvious. ***EDIT***

According to Dr. H what you are going through is, all by itself, is grounds for Plan B then D.

Anyway, call Dr H. Tell him you are no longer happily married. See what he says.

Actually, I've never seen anyone say this. I've seen many instances where posters have acknowledged that not all marriages can be saved. Dr. Harley has made it very clear that he does not believe in marriage at all costs. Divorce is not the ultimate in failure on MB. Often, personal recovery is the definition of success.

What posters here, and Dr. Harley himself, do all seem to agree on is that it makes no sense to stay in a marriage if you have no intentions of recovering it. Where is the point in staying married and miserable, not meeting each other's EN's, not spending any UA time together, and basically just putting up with each other for the rest of your lives?

That seems to be what you've decided to do Aphelion, and to a lesser degree, it seems to be what Gamma is doing as well.

From the looks of things, I would have to say it doesn't seem to be working out too well for either one of you.

Actually, I see it a lot. And I mean no disrespect. It�s just a fact.

I have a hard time getting across that I don�t need to be romantically involved with anyone, especially not an adulteress, former or otherwise, to be happy and content. I have made a very good life for myself (and still no adultery on my part - weird, huh.)

I had every intention of recovering. At first. And for a long time. And we both did it by the MB book. But, eventually I realized I was simply not ever going to get past it. By then FWW begged me not to D her. Must have been residual compassion � I told her I would not. Plus, being a practicing catholic I could not marry again anyway. So it makes no difference remaining legally married.

But it�s all worked out well for me. I am happier than ever I was during the VLTA. Disconnecting has been a very good thing. And, I am safe. Finally.

Did not ask if your BH talks about the affair anymore.

Did not ask if you think about the affair anymore.

I asked can you remember. Example, if your BH was to ask you tomorrow about the affair would he get answers or would he get I don't remembers.

Though I am curious as to what a WW can remember after time goes by. I do not want you to try to remember what you have forgotten.

Or do I want to get you to try to remember.

No way to answer this without actually thinking about it.

Though I can say that, when one goes a long time without thinking about something, it is probably much more difficult to remember details such as places, times, dates, and the specifics of what happened. No, I don't think I would be able to accurately remember all of that after this long.

And my major point is, after all this time being in recovery, it would make no sense for my husband to ask about any of this in the first place. Dredging stuff up like that only sets back recovery. It does more harm to the marriage than good. What would be gained by bringing things up again? Nothing. Luckily, my H realizes this and doesn't do it. Gamma apparently hasn't figured this out yet.

BrokenVase,

He does NOT want to BECAUSE he did it with the OW. Things we do together are in a "box" of things we do; things he did with the OW are in a "box" of things he did with her.

So, can I replace the memories? No. Can I bring up the topic? No. He stated he's not enthusiastic and then I'm "bringing up the past."

I want him to ENJOY doing THIS ONE PARTICULAR THING with me, but he WILL NOT.

Someone told me there was a Korean saying that goes "a woman is a different woman for every man she is with", I've never been able to locate that quote, but I think it would equally apply to men. I often thought about that when I remembered how my W was with OM2. I'm not sure if this will help you create acceptance of the fact that OW got what you did not, I'm not sure anything can.

Did you ever speak with these OW or inform their BHs? Your WH got away with murder and now he wants to clam up? There's also a sense of injustice in that the OW not only stole from you but got away with it.

God Bless
Gamma

I will not push this theme with you any more. I do agree with your BH's actions.

However your BH got all the truth he wanted from you. Gamma claims to not have gotten all of his questions answered. Until a BH gets all of his questions answered he will never rest.

However Gamma's tactic to "get the truth" is a smoke screen to get SF from his WW. He is mistaken and or delusional to think this will work.

I am still waiting for Gamma to wake up and call the Harley's.

You can put people behind the wheel of an auto. Each one will get a different experience by what they bring to the table.

Does not matter. Everyone should just enjoy their own ride.

Alphalion,

Gamma: �And in some ways honesty is the ultimate just compensation isn't it?�

This is the crux of the matter. The missing EN is RH, not OS. You have an EN for RH. Unfulfilled OS is mere insult added to injury. Salt in the wound. Lack of OS is misdirected resentment.

That's correct I could have said I wish W was honest with me about kissing OM2, because from my perspective kissing is as intimate as oral perhaps even more so.

Perhaps I should say the only EN I have is for a wife who never committed adultery. Perhaps that is also your fundamental need.

No just want her to tell me what happened, I had hoped her conscience would wake up and she would confess.

My wife�s VLTA lasted 10 years. She did many, many unique things with dirt bag love of her life she would not and will not do with me. Sexual and otherwise, including spending a ton of $ on him. Getting answers to my questions would take as long as the adultery lasted. I don�t have the patience. What to do? Write it off and suppress the frustration? D?

There is a sense in which a long term affair and a long dead affair are the same, in that both involve lying for a long time, and invalidate years and years of marriage.

Yes it is difficult to decide what to do, if it were a short explosive affair there are perhaps fewer memories to deal with and you may be young enough that the choices are more clear cut.

Did you ever get OM fired or demoted what was the long term consequences for OM? I've read some of your older posts and I would have taken OM2 out if he was like your OM. Did you get DNA tests for your children.

God Bless
Gamma

TR,

However Gamma's tactic to "get the truth" is a smoke screen to get SF from his WW. He is mistaken and or delusional to think this will work.

I think I've said quite a few times that this MIGHT be a side effect, if it reduces my W's feelings of guilt about having sex with OM2!

In fact my W has a very difficult time admitting to anything and the confession might cause her to never have even one sided sex with me ever again. I will still take that chance.

God Bless
Gamma

I think I've said quite a few times that this MIGHT (more SF) be a side effect, if it reduces my W's feelings of guilt about having sex with OM2! In fact my W has a very difficult time admitting to anything and the confession might cause her to never have even one sided sex with me ever again.

Colleagues, it seems Gamma has courageously agreed to perform an experiment on his marital union, for the benefit of our universal bank of knowledge. As I understand the paradigm, to a marginally acceptable union, he added a dose of WW's former romantic feelings, a modicum of exothermic (heat-releasing) shame and regret(?), shook it well, and is waiting for the result. Would that be fair, G? We, at best, believe the product will be endothermic (as in chilling!)

It does call to mind whatever chemist who, inquisitively, was the first to toss a chunk of Cesium into a water-filled beaker. It would be hoped, after the subsequent loud noise, he remained alive long enough to tell his peers: "Don't do that!"

Well, then, G, keep us advised, okay?

I'm curious as to what is bringing all of this up now?

This was 20 years ago.

You knew about the relationship between your then-girlfriend and this OM at the time. You chose to marry her anyway. You've had 20 years together, and now, all of a sudden, you decide to make an issue of this long-ago relationship to the point of actually taking your wife to see the OM.

Why?

Seemed a lot more like rubbing a puppy's nose in the pile in the middle of the living room... 20 years later...

Gamma,

The problem is not the relationship she had with a boyfriend before you got married, the problem is the relationship she has with you today. You can say you're meeting her needs, but it's the Lovebusters that make that not count as deposits. You're quite disrespectful and critical of her, we point out some examples, and you continue to refuse to acknowledge it, shifting the blame again to how she's thinking and feeling differently than she tells you. You will never have an open relationship that way.

You want intimacy and both of you to feel in love with each other? Then drop dwelling on the past, drop your conviction that you know what her real problem is, drop your judgemental attitude towards her, and allow "no" to be an option.
She has honestly told you that she doesn't want to do OS. The negotiations aren't about finding a way to convince her how her no is hypocritical, the negotiation is about how you can both still have a satisfying sexual life without it: without her sacrificing for you.

To restate the most important thing: what's lacking in your relationship is based on you, not on what kind of relationship she had in the past.

Talk to Dr. Harley. Please.

Honesty and Openness #1

Check out this thread (that you posted in). Made me think of your situation: Why would she do it with him but not me?

Gamma,

This is your thread. I do not want to make it about me. But, I will attempt short answers to your questions.

�There is a sense in which a long term affair and a long dead affair are the same, in that both involve lying for a long time, and invalidate years and years of marriage.�

Possibly. 20 years of living a lie might feel similar. But, knowing one�s spouse was deeply in love with her OM for over half one�s marriage is definitely a major pain and resentment amplifier. LTAs and VLTAs generally become more real to the adulterers than their marriages. This is not the issue in your case.

�Yes it is difficult to decide what to do, if it were a short explosive affair there are perhaps fewer memories to deal with and you may be young enough that the choices are more clear cut.�

I agree a ONS, very short adultery or otherwise tripping and falling is fundamentally different than a long adulterous relationship (or serial adulteries no matter how short each is) with months or years of lying, despicable conduct and deceit. I have posed before I do not place adulterers who quickly stop and voluntarily confess and agree to do whatever it takes to reconcile in the same category as the dirt bag adulterers.

�Did you ever get OM fired or demoted what was the long term consequences for OM? I've read some of your older posts and I would have taken OM2 out if he was like your OM.

I did, sort of. This is an action I have been criticized for. Dr H recommends moving to get away from the OP. No, I like it here. I decided he would be the one to move away. He was given the option of early retirement or being fired. I also gave all the gory details to his wife who then divorced him and took their children. Don�t feel bad about that at all, either. She was an OW from his first marriage. I also gave copys to his first wife and their adult children � cutting off a possible local retreat. I used to keep tabs on him but don�t any more. Last I heard he was looking for work in Canada.

Did you get DNA tests for your children?

No. I do not want to know. I love DS just the way he is. Worse, IMO, are the lost children. She secretly went on birth control right after the start of the VLTA. When we were trying for more children. She told me several times during the VLTA how much she wanted more children and said the problem was something wrong with me. Ah, well. I don�t care anymore. She can do whatever she wants now.

As if it isn't hard enough to get people on this site to understand "you can only control yourself," do you have to come around posting things like this?

That made no sense. What are you talking about?

Writer1,

I'm curious as to what is bringing all of this up now? This was 20 years ago.

For a number of reasons.

1)Because sometimes awareness takes a long time to pass a threshold where you act. When OM2 happened I just buried myself in my work even deeper, and tried to forget.

2)My GF/W never regained any passion for me after OM2, I worked to please her, but she never reciprocated. This needs an explanation, as it represents years of marginal sex life.

3)At one time I assumed having your GF/W cheat on me was just a cost of having a really hot partner, MB changed my view on that one.

4)At one time I assumed people just got over affairs. Affairs were something everyone laughed about behind the betrayed spouses back, as I had seen happen so often. Yet I never forgot my W's affair had dreams about it.

5)My W still has a good opinion of OM2. Now the story is she viewed him like a "brother" cute.

You knew about the relationship between your then-girlfriend and this OM at the time. You chose to marry her anyway. You've had 20 years together, and now, all of a sudden, you decide to make an issue of this long-ago relationship to the point of actually taking your wife to see the OM. Why?

Marriage builders!

God Bless
Gamma

NG,

Colleagues, it seems Gamma has courageously agreed to perform an experiment on his marital union, for the benefit of our universal bank of knowledge.

NG there are a great many BS who will never get the answers they seek, and who have WS who feel entitled to keep their secret second lives to themselves and even blame their BS for their affairs. Your WWs affair was over quickly and you got the details you needed,if I recall your story, but that's not everyones outcome.

Yes what I did was a bit like resorting to dynamite, but sometimes there is no choice when a WS goes silent.

God Bless
Gamma

FTF,

Yes I very much remembered Lightsout thread, and it gave me some hope I could get my W to talk.

There was another thread, don't recall name, but he got OM to spill on his WW affair from 20 years earlier. He told me his technique when I had emailed him. I emailed him because he had subtly revealed his identity in one of his postings.

God Bless
Gamma

Alphalion,

Don't worry about the threadjack, my original question went unanswered, so it's a mutated thread now.

Sorry to hear about your lost children and even more I feel for your son who lost siblings, how does your WW process what she did to you son?

God Bless
Gamma

G, would it surprise you to learn that, being astute enough to accept the
ineffectiveness of warning you against doing something you've already done,
right now I'm hoping that your "puppy-nose-poop" (Great analogy, Trip!)
policy actually works?

Gamma,

How come you avoid all my posts, but will answer everyone else?

What do you have against emailing Dr. Harley?

BrainHurts,

Because of the Monty Python reference.

Serious, the links you sent me would take some time to read, and I was going to do that when this thread slows down, and I am not ready to email the Harleys.



God Bless
Gamma

Ok thanks for the explanation.

I really do think emailing Dr. Harley will be a good thing.

In your original post on this thread, this is the closest thing to a question I could find.

I'm guessing no one is answering it because very few people here have done this, considering the fact that Dr. Harley advises against it and it seems like a bad idea in general.

Continuing to communicate with past affair partners breaks the policy of NC for life. I believe this policy is for both the BS as well as the WS. I'm pretty sure it is agains MB principles for a BS to look up his WS's affair partner from many years ago, talk to him, and then take the WS to see the OP.

The answer to number 2 is because of you, not "OM2". To say "marginal sex life" is to make your complaint a disrespectful judgement. Do you realize just how much you are letting her know you don't appreciate one doggone thing she has done with/for you, especially sexually? Your overriding drive for OS and that's the only thing that will prove her love to you probably makes her feel close to worthless as a human being. For almost 20 years.

The questions you ask about that old relationship are what is contributing to number 5. You aren't asking questions that help keep this from happening again, you are asking questions so you can use the answers to let her know that she's not doing for you what you believe you are entitled to. You are keeping all her mistakes fresh and present. You.

If you really cared about the quality of your life instead of making sure you are right, you would be so ready to write Dr. Harley. You haven't even found the time to read the links that were posted to you. Have you even read SAA, Lovebusters, HNHN?

And it's pretty sad that your redefinition of MB has made things worse. It seems that it has prompted you to believe you deserve more care without you providing more care yourself.

Can you at least give some thought to what you do that hurts your marriage?

Why does Mrs gamma accept a bad marriage?

Why does Mrs gamma withhold the information that her BH deserves to have?

If Mrs gamma would tell all it would remove the wall between them.

It could lead to a better marriage, divorce, things stay where they are.

Gamma is unhappy. Save to assume Mrs gamma is unhappy. Counseling with Dr Harley would get them some where. Staying in limbo is not good for either of them.

Gama, your posting here is a waste of time because you are just running around in circles. Going no where. Getting nothing accomplished.



Tell your WW that every year we are a year older. Have a year less to have lived a happy marriage. Let us call the Harley's.

Is there anything in the books, on the site, or ever broadcasted on the radio show that ever lead you to believe that it would ever be otherwise?

While it may happen that a WS will view at transgression as a mistake, for them to have a negative view of the AP is highly unlikely. When these things end right - suddenly rather than naturally - a positive LB$ balance remains. That in itself is why a negative view won't develop - and why NC for life is an absolute must.

Dr Harley has said that the positive love bank deposits with the AP remains on the books.

That is why the he says NC must be for life otherwise the chance for the affair to restart is to high. That is why they restart.

As to I just think of the OM as a brother.

Another example of trickle truth.

Did you expect your WW upon seeing the OM again to recall and tell you the fun times, hot sex, and how the OM2 still makes my undergarments wet just seeing the OM again and remembering all those things.

LL,

The answer to number 2 is because of you, not "OM2". To say "marginal sex life" is to make your complaint a disrespectful judgement. Do you realize just how much you are letting her know you don't appreciate one doggone thing she has done with/for you, especially sexually? Your overriding drive for OS and that's the only thing that will prove her love to you probably makes her feel close to worthless as a human being. For almost 20 years.

Again, I have not had OS for a long time, have never demanded it, have had a standing offer to do it for her whenever/if ever she wants. This is not my primary goal in my marriage or in life.

If I were given the choice of getting the truth of my Ws affair or OS everyday for the rest of my life I would choose the truth.

God Bless
Gamma

gamma, is your wife in love with you? That one thing more than any other would probably help to turn your marriage (and sex life) around.

TR,

Why does Mrs gamma accept a bad marriage?

Actually she is very happy with our marriage and the great strides I have made to meet her needs.

Why does Mrs gamma withhold the information that her BH deserves to have?

1)At least in part because she feels our marriage is recovered, as she said to me one, "why would you want to know details that would destroy a recovered marriage".

2)Also because she feels great shame in what she did, heck it took her decades to tell me about something that happened before I even dated her.

Gamma is unhappy. Save to assume Mrs gamma is unhappy. Counseling with Dr Harley would get them some where. Staying in limbo is not good for either of them.

Not so much unhappy as resolute to get to the bottom of this.

God Bless
Gamma

HHH,

While it may happen that a WS will view at transgression as a mistake, for them to have a negative view of the AP is highly unlikely. When these things end right - suddenly rather than naturally - a positive LB$ balance remains. That in itself is why a negative view won't develop - and why NC for life is an absolute must.

That explains it very well, why OM remains a faultless person in W estimation.

God Bless
Gamma

If you understand this, especially the NC for life part, then why did you think it was a good idea to take your wife to see the OM after all these years?

Markos,

W claims a great deal of love for me and appreciates the improvements I have made, and the compliments from others who see the way I treat her.

I am afraid that this increase in marital happiness has made her much more reluctant to tell me anything, as she views what happened pre-MB almost as if it was a different marriage.

God Bless
Gamma

In many ways, what happened pre-MB is a different marriage.

And in your case, what happened with this "OM" was pre-marriage period.

I really think it's time to leave the past in the past and focus on the future and on creating a better marriage today.

This path you are walking down is treacherous and will only serve to erode your wife's Love Bank and drive her further away. Is that your goal?

Please write Dr. Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

You're stuck in a hole and none of us seem to be able help you out. Give Dr. Harley a chance. What have you got to lose? It's free and takes relatively little effort and time.

All,

Anyhow, I have a few people I have tracked down and can contact.

OM himself I think I have an email for but unconfirmed and there seems to be a gmail and yahoo address with the same handle. I do have the email for the president of the club OM is in.

1)OMW facebook.
2)OM and my coworker1 phone number, and his wife facebook.
3)OM and my coworker2 facebook, but single.
4)OM and my coworker3 facebook, status unknown, might be OM2.2.

I guess I can make friendly contact with them and hope they give me some info.

Or I could pose as someone else, my W or some other member of the opposite gender.

Any other ideas?

God Bless
Gamma

That doesn't sound like being in love to me.

I agree with Markos that she doesn't sound like she's in love with you, and the only idea I can think of that might truly benefit you is to write to and talk to Dr. Harley.

Yeah, stop trying to dredge up ancient history and start focusing on the state of your marriage today.

With your obsessions about the past, I can all but guarantee you that your wife isn't nearly as in love with you as you believe her to be. You commit far too many LB's (like taking her to see the OM or repeatedly asking her for oral sex several times a year even after she's made it clear to you that she isn't comfortable with it) for her to be in love.

Those are my ideas.

I have no reason to believe you're going to listen to them though.

I still don't understand what you want to find out from these people. I asked you before what you wanted to know from this pre-marriage OM, but I didn't understand your answer.

Are you hoping to ask these people whether this man had oral sex with your wife?

Gamma is not the first or only BH to want what the OM got in the SF department. Specially when he never ever got it from his WW.

**EDIT**

Gamma does not want the truth to know what happened. Once all the questions have been answered the affair can be left in the past and forgotten is the goal for knowing the truth.

Gamma wants the truth to tell his WW gotcha. You did all that in your affairs I want the same for me.

Playing gotcha gamma is not how to recover.

I can not remember a post with so many MBer's saying contact Dr Harley as much as this thread.

Gamma there is a message in the prior sentence. I point that out because you do not seem to hear what people are telling you here.

Taking 1 for the team does not make a good relationship and violates POJA, the basis of a good and successful marriage.

This is not consistent with Dr H's advice and is dangerous for the marriage. A BH pressuring a FWW until she gives in and gives him that act that she does not want to do in her marriage is punishment, which plays no part in recovery. Also, in forcing a wife to do what she finds distasteful (pardon the pun) is setting her up for a sexual aversion, which is the last thing a BH (or any H) needs in his marriage.

Road, do you honestly believe that if you were to tell your wife "do XXX" for me because you did it for him", and she hated doing it but did it, that you would feel good? Really, would that make you feel happier?

There are many things that many of us want after the discovery of the affair, that are bad for the marriage and recovery. We would not be "the first or the only" BSs to want a revenge affair, or to hit and scream at the WS on a daily basis, or to use resentment as a punishment in order to get whatever we wanted thereafter. We could decide that we are entitled to spend money like water, to spend nights out and not tell our spouses what we're up to, and to put them through hell, but that attitude is not the way to recover a marriage.

Selfish demands are the way to ruin recovery, not to progress it. Asking and then insisting that a FWW do a sex act for you because she did it for him is a particularly nasty selfish demand. You and Gamma are not going to get the marriage you want by doing that.

Still following this thread with interest...

I would like some things that OW got that I did not get...

I'd like my H to take me out for a glass of wine.

I'd like him to call me on the phone to chat.

And a few others.

But, he's not enthusiastic, and I can't bring it up, because it's "talking about the past" and "making selfish demands."

So, I walk through town, watching other women get what I want, as a matter of course.

Things I will probably never get, because of the OW.

For many of us, I think, there IS an element of sacrifice to staying with a spouse after an affair.

For some things, to borrow from Porsche, there is no substitute.

Continuing to read with interest -

BV

I still think it's important to note that Gamma didn't choose to stay with his wife after an affair, not with this OM at least. He chose to make her his wife AFTER she already cheated on him.

Now, he's making this past relationship his wife had, BEFORE they even married, an issue again. I'm not sure why he's doing this, but some people seem to think it's because he wants his wife to give him OS, like she maybe did for the OM before Gamma married her.

BV, this is very different from your situation.

Have you tried approaching this not from the viewpoint of "I want you to give me what you gave the OW..." but rather, "Here is a list of my EN's and this is how I would like you to meet them"? Is your WH onboard with MB? Have you established the fact that he is no longer in contact with the OW? Do you consider your marriage to be in Recovery?

Here's the difference between a flourishing marriage and a stagnant one, not out of recovery:

I'd like you to take me out for a glass of wine, because you did that with your affair partner.

I'd like you to call me on the phone to chat, because you did that when wooing OW.

Not expressing your feelings to FWH on any topic that relates in any way something associated with his affair is the worst kind of sacrifice. Either you can't broach the subjects because of your resentment of his actions with OW (which we can counsel you through) or you are afraid of his reaction, which is actually an (unspoken) DJ. ("Mentioning wine will inevitably make him think I'm referencing his affair.")

Timidity is NOT MB. Stay grounded in the basic tenets, but move on them. If you want to enjoy a glass of wine, ask him out for one. If chatting on the phone for a few moments mid-day would be pleasant, place the call, or POJA on a daily appointment for him to call you.

No.

I resent the time I now have to spend being vigilant, and second-guessing whether I'm being sufficiently vigilant.

I resent the fact that I will never have information about the As I want to know (one affair was revealed after over two decades, the other, after four years and my H has forgotten answers to my questions).

Additionally, I have not been able to make Just Compensation work for me.

I feel my situation parallels Gamma's in some important ways.

BV

YES. EXACTLY. A "reclaim the memories" kind of thing. (You may recall my previous post on this thread emphasizing the subordinating conjunction BECAUSE).


Been there, done that. He DOESN'T WANT TO, just as Mrs. Gamma does not want to engage in OS.

H does not want to drink/talk with me because HE DOESN'T ENJOY DOING THOSE THINGS WITH ME. He enjoyed them with the OW because she had (has? - I'm assuming she's still living) qualities I do not have.

Just as Mrs. Gamma, perhaps, enjoyed OS with another man (men?) because the OP, due many variables, made it enjoyable.


My H would like to substitute other activities. Just as Mrs. Gamma, perhaps, would be willing to substitute other SF activities for OS.

However, for me (and Gamma?), because of the BECAUSE, there is no substitute.

As I said in my reply to writer1, I have not been able to make JC work for me.

Does resentment block a BS from being able to accept JC, or does a WS's inability to provide JC (assuming what constitutes JC is individual*) create/continue resentment?

Gamma, please forgive me if I am misinterpreting your situation.

BV

P.S. *Not having another affair and meeting my needs in a way that is pleasing to him (i.e., he gets what he wants (doesn't have to do things he doesn't want to do; I DON'T get what I want (don't get to do the things I want to do, but instead get "substitutes") does not feel like JC to me.

Which, if I have been interpreting this thread correctly, is where Gamma is at.

Hopefully not a threadjack -

BV

If you demand your spouse sacrifice instead of negotiating with your spouse so that both of you can be happy, then no, JC will not happen.

JC is not punishment and doesn't require sacrifice.

You might consider emailing Dr. Harley yourself, BV.

Broken vase, I would be interested to hear the answer to your question above as well if you would be willing to email it to Dr Harley.

I am not for forcing the WW to do something distasteful.

When a WW does something she would not do for her BH. Though did it willingly for the OM. That sends a message that says WW actions are speaking louder then her words. That the WW for whatever reason put has put the OM as number one and BH in second place.

The WW made the OM feel special, at least in the BH's eyes. How else is the BH to feel when she gave the OM willingly and freely yet outright refuses to do the same for her BH?

How does the WW justify doing less for her BH?

Have you broached the polygraph test? No BS will rest with their questions about the affair unanswered.

Giving this message repeatedly to your (or Gamma's) FWW when she has said she does not want to do whatever it is, is attempting to force her to do what you want. You are not physically making her do it, but you are putting pressure on her to do it. Dr Harley advises very strongly against putting pressure on your spouse, and against putting pressure on women to perform sexual acts that they dislike.

My point was to try and make you see that if you (or Gamma) succeed in making her do it, you probably won't feel good about it and she DEFINITELY won't feel good about it, and this will harm your marriage.

You will get your short-term victory if you pressurise her until she gives in, but the victory will be a pyrrhic one.

It sends a message that she degraded herself by doing something that she did not like doing, for what she hoped was his love (but deep down doubted). It sends a message that she knew that OM wanted her for sex, and would have dumped her if it hadn't been given to his satisfaction.

The reason she degraded herself was to get the conversation, attention and flattery that she craved. While the affair was on, she kidded herself that OM loved and respected her, but when the BH found out about the affair, she saw herself for the cheap tramp that she had been. She behaved like a whore but wasn't even smart enough to get paid. When the affair was revealed and OM did not come beating down her door to take her away from her H, and instead stayed in the shadows, she faced up to how low she had stooped and was humiliated.

She does not want to now be reminded that she was a whore, and a foolish one at that, by recreating her affair in your bedroom. Surely that's not hard to see.

This "you did it for him; now you can do it for me" reasoning is poison to a marriage that is attempting recovery. You can't expect either of you to recover if you bring her affair into your sex lives.

I am not saying that gamma should keep hounding his WW for the same SF that she gave the OM. I have said gamma would be better off contacting Dr H many times.

Please re read what you have quoted and discuss how a BH is not to feel that his WW has made him number 2.

How is a WW to think that her BH would be ok with getting less then the OM?

At the minimum a WW must tell her BH why she will not do for him what she did for the OM. The WW stating I do not want to, or a simple no is not an acceptable answer.

A WW doing something for the OM. Then refusing to do it for the BH sends a negative message about her BH.

How can a WW not see this?

A BH says to recover I have to accept that the SF between the OM and my WW can never be undone. To expect it to happen would be unrealistic. A BH whether he wants to recover or divorce can not deny this.

Many a BH want to reclaim their WW. As we know reclaiming can and will cover many things including SF. So to deny a BH what the WW did with the OM is the WW denying her BH reclaiming what he needs to recover.

The phrase just compensation does not mesh with the BH has to accept that the OM got more then him in the SF department then he ever got before the affair and never will get post affair from his WW.

So to recover the BH has to accept being second place.

TR,

As to I just think of the OM as a brother. Another example of trickle truth.

The story morphs every time it is told, this is why asking OM2 and others offers a way to end this decades long trickle truth. There are WWs who would need photo graphic evidence and even then claim retouching.

Did you expect your WW upon seeing the OM again to recall and tell you the fun times, hot sex, and how the OM2 still makes my undergarments wet just seeing the OM again and remembering all those things.

Might explain why I was a husband, provider, father, handyman, companion, but not her lover in our marriage.

Oddly enough I might never have gone down this path had I never blundered into MB, and my W thinks we would have been divorced already.

God Bless
Gamma

Markos


That doesn't sound like being in love to me.

Perhaps not, one of the sadder things I hear Dr Harley say to BHs who call in is, "your WW may NEVER have been in love with you", I think he said that to "fightthefight".

God Bless
Gamma

SugarCane,

I still don't understand what you want to find out from these people. I asked you before what you wanted to know from this pre-marriage OM, but I didn't understand your answer.

Simply put the truth, or whatever OMs version of it is, if his answer is that they had sex then I can use that to pry out more details from my W. Who knows perhaps OM saved love letters he might be willing to part with.

Are you hoping to ask these people whether this man had oral sex with your wife?

No, but OM would have bragged about who he bagged to his coworkers. Again I'm not focused on oral sex, this is getting to be like the Arthur Two sheds Jackson sketch.



God Bless
Gamma

BV,

So, I walk through town, watching other women get what I want, as a matter of course.

It kills me to see kissing in a movie or whatever, I can't even get an answer about why kissing is never initiated by W, except when she feels guilty.

For many of us, I think, there IS an element of sacrifice to staying with a spouse after an affair. For some things, to borrow from Porsche, there is no substitute.

And the thing that differs in long term or long buried affairs is that there is a sum of sacrifice that accumulates in proportion to the number of years it has gone on.

God Bless
Gamma

BV,

H does not want to drink/talk with me because HE DOESN'T ENJOY DOING THOSE THINGS WITH ME. He enjoyed them with the OW because she had (has? - I'm assuming she's still living) qualities I do not have.

Just as Mrs. Gamma, perhaps, enjoyed OS with another man (men?) because the OP, due many variables, made it enjoyable.

The WS stops talking sometimes to "spare our feelings" but it tends to make it worse.

One of the variables you speak of which may have made OM2 so powerfully attractive to W was that she was in the fog of new love, something I've not experienced since I met my W.

I'll have to ask my W, but I don't think she ever felt that there was any danger of my becoming emotionally attached to someone else during the entire length of our marriage. I do resent that I've given her emotional stability, security and approval while I've felt that she could drop me at any time.

God Bless
Gamma

God Bless
Gamma

You say your wife's story morphs every time, with new trickle truth. Is this in response to your questions? How many times for how long have you kept asking her questions about her affairs? Can you go six months without asking these questions, without dwelling on her "insincere sex", without demands or disrespect? Do you encourage her to be open with you about your Lovebusters to her? Do you change what you do based on this?

How long did you spend looking up all those people on Facebook? Could you spend the same amount of time and mental effort in writing your problems and complaints to Dr. Harley? Why are you ignoring this valuable resource? You have nothing to lose and everything to gain, as Joyce says. You can get a 30-40 minute session - for free!

"your WW may NEVER have been in love with you"

This approaches the concept I've raise on one - no, two - other threads, that of the "minimal acceptable marriage" or m.a.m. The idea is that a given union, due to, let's say, the tepid participation of one spouse, has no spark, no vibrancy, no passion. If that spouse (typically) will not participate in the MB Program, what is the protocol for the other spouse to re-evaluate the benefits of remaining in that bad marriage, or taking steps to leaving it?

It seems that taking those steps appears (perhaps rightfully so) so daunting that they are NEVER actuated. It may be that those long-regretted vows are sufficient glue to hold the dissatisfied spouse in place - "It may be a BAD marriage, but it is MY marriage!" - or it may be the hope that somehow, someday, something will change, or it may be the intrusion of progeny/family obligations make moving on unfeasible.

Sadly, the theorem holds: One person can destroy a marriage, but it takes two people to improve a marriage!"

So, BV and G, assuming the status remains quo in your marriages - no wine for BV, no oral sex for G - do you plan to stay?

I can see that no explanation or argument will change some men's feelings that they are number two, if they are in a situation where their wives will not do certain things with them, and their explanation for this refusal is not acceptable to the BH. I could say anything to you and no matter how convincing it might sound to someone else, it isn't going to convince you.

I'm not sure whether the "number 2 position" is your feeling personally, TheRoad, because I am not quite clear whether you know your wife did things with OM and you cannot get her to do them with you, or whether you just don't know what they did because you don't know anything about the affair - not even who OM in your marriage was.

I can only say that from my experience as a BW, I was dogged in needing to know all sorts of details about the affair, but for me, these were details about how he had conducted the affair, how they managed to be together and go away together, and how much and in what ways he continued to lie to me after my numerous D Days.

I took it as given that the sex was the best he had ever had, because I could work out that the conditions of any affair must produce these feelings. Dr Harley has said something to the effect that most affair partners will tell him that the sex was the best they had ever had, and he believes that it must have been. This is not, he said, because of the sexual acts themselves but because of the context. Long before I heard him say that on the radio, I believed that to be the case for my own H. At the time when we used to fight about the affair, I never asked him whether that was true because I "knew" (in my own head) that it was true. I did not need to humiliate myself by hearing him confirm that to me, and and I wouldn't have believed him if he'd told me otherwise.

I can only tell you that today, I don't feel second best to anybody; not in any aspect of what makes me me, and certainly not in terms of sex.

I realise that my H might still today think that the sex during the affair was the best of his life, but I don't care if he does. The sex during our marriage today is of a quality that makes him desire me often, and he pays me the utmost care and attention, and shows me much love and "lovingness", when it happens, so I am not going to spare any part of my brain to actively thinking about how it ranks alongside sex with her.

Like the poster brokenvase, I found out details about their conduct during the affair that hurt me. For example, that they sent sexy texts often during the day and definitely every single night before going to bed. They emailed frequently, and spoke on the phone every day, sometimes for over an hour. All this took place either at work, or on his work-provided mobile phone that he told me he only used when he was abroad, to ring the office.

As our courtship had taken place long before the days of email and mobile phones, I had never had a sexy text from my H (and I still don't have a mobile phone, so I couldn't get one even today. Neither does he have a mobile phone any longer). We didn't have a computer in the house so the only email address I had ever used was my work one, and I have never used that to send sexy emails to my H, as I think that would be inappropriate. I was quite shocked to find out that he was using his work email address to send sexy emails to her.

He bought her a ring, when she asked him to buy her a present "because we've been together for months now and you haven't bought me anything" (according to the account given to me by her H). She took him to the jewellers and picked out a ring that her H said (after he demanded it from her) looked like an engagement ring. I never had an engagement ring, and I have never been bought a ring since my wedding ring, so she has something there that I never had.

They were both able to travel around Europe in their jobs, so they could each tell their spouse that they were travelling for work, while really travelling to meet the other person. So, OW spent nights alone in hotels rooms with my H, which I hadn't done since we'd had our first child 14 years earlier. Additionally, they travelled to some places that I had never been to, such as the lovely city of Lisbon in Portugal, which my H had, before marriage, described as one of his favourite cities. It hurt that I'd never been there.

There were things like that that they'd done that I had never done, and some that I probably won't ever do. Those things for me were for a long time like the sexual things seem to be for some BHs. They were things that I resented that he'd done with her and not me. So, if you can accept the comparability, I have some understanding of the feelings of resentment about specific things they did.

Today, however, I don't feel that those specific things that they did that we never did are an issue for my own self-esteem, or feelings of esteem within the marriage. There is resentment still about the affair as a whole, because it was a long one (a 5-year EA, conducted by telephone from his workplace, continued after he stopped travelling and the meetings between them ended, so it was 8 years in total), and because it included multiple D Days and continued lying and cruel gaslighting to me. But the issue of feeling second best, which is really an issue of self-esteem, has long gone.

This is due to many things; to the fact that my H dropped her and ran every time either I or her H found out about the affair; that doesn't say a lot about how much he valued her. (It doesn't say very much about his character then, either.) It is due to the fact that he seemed never to have planned to leave me, and did what Dr H said and begged me to take him back; to the fact that our kids have grown up and he could be gone, and yet he is here; it is due to the way that he treats me on a daily basis, which is loving and caring; and to the transparency and EPs that he willingly practices.

You are saying that for some BHs, the marriage and the BH cannot recover if the FWW does not give JC in the form of the acts that she did for the OM. I can only say that in my experience, my marriage is recovering and so I do not want JC in the form of doing what they used to do together. In fact, I can't think of anything worse than focusing on what they did. He took the sex that he could from her, knowing that she was putting out because she craved the romance and attention that he gave her. He had no intention of giving that romance to her out in the open, for life, alongside the commitments of paying her mortgage, becoming stepparent to her kids, paying the bills, mowing the lawn and meeting her boring parents every Sunday. He gave her the romance to get the sex, and she gave him the sex to get the romance. He used her badly, and she willingly became his whore, and she fell in love and left her H, and my H dumped her and would not leave me. It is too sordid for words, and I have long since stopped wanting to do anything that they did, or seeing his doing those things for me as JC.

Why on earth would I compare myself and my marriage to her and their affair, and why, if I did that, would I see myself as second best? Excuse me - that is unthinkable! I am incomparable to all that! I only want what I can build with my H from now on, and I do not waste my time wishing I had what she'd had. She has ruined her marriage and trashed her reputation, and I don't see how she can look at herself today and feel self-respect, and I feel nothing but pity for her.

My self respect is not in question. I haven't done anything within my marriage to feel ashamed of, and much, as a wife and mother, to feel proud of.

I'm not sure that telling you my strategy will help you or Gamma, but as I said, I'm not sure what will. I can only reiterate my experience that for me, progress along the path of recovery made the specifics of what they did recede further and further away.

Finally, my views of Gamma's strategy would be different if we were talking about an affair during the marriage that he was being denied details about. This is an infidelity from before they were married, which he was aware of and wiped the debt away by marrying his wife. This central concern of this whole thread is incomprehensible to me. What a waste of time and a life.

Yes, it is sad. But I also believe Dr. Harley has stated that even this is fixable. Dr. Harley has had success creating romantic love in marriages even where none has existed from the very beginning of the marriage.

The way to do this is to follow the program, focusing especially on UA time and meeting EN's, while avoiding AO's and LB's that erode romantic love.

I don't see you expressing any willingness to do this Gamma. In fact, you insist on continuing to do things that are almost certain to destroy any romantic love your wife might be feeling for you.

Why don't you just give the program a try?

How is your UA time?

What are your wife's top EN's and what are you doing to meet them?

QFT

It is quite possible that the WW did things in the affair that she didn't actually like. Just because she was abused during the A should not condemn her to abuse in the M. She is free at any time to express her lack of enthusiasm over anything, and her H should respect her choice. That is the essence of POJA.

SugarCane,

What you wrote is absolutely fantastic! If that isn't convincing and showing a clear path, then nothing is.

Comes down she loved the OM so she did it to make the OM happy.

She does not do it to make her BH happy so that leaves a BH to draw a conclusion of how he stands when the WW compares him to the OM.

May be the wrong conclusion. Hard to convince a BH that there were other conclusions to chose from. Harder to convince the BH that his conclusion is wrong.

Does a WW not see this?

Sure, they do. Some name it "entitlement." Even if all was given as BH wants, she will not finally earn her BH's care back because she is only giving what is due, after all - from the point of view of entitlement.

SugarCane
I can see that no explanation or argument will change some men's feelings that they are number two, if they are in a situation where their wives will not do certain things with them, and their explanation for this refusal is not acceptable to the BH. I could say anything to you and no matter how convincing it might sound to someone else, it isn't going to convince you.

Convince her BH.

I'm not sure whether the "number 2 position" is your feeling personally, TheRoad, because I am not quite clear whether you know your wife did things with OM and you cannot get her to do them with you, or whether you just don't know what they did because you don't know anything about the affair - not even who OM in your marriage was.

I do not know who the OM is and trickle truth for over 25 years. Very little has been revealed. She refuses to talk about it at all any more. For 30+ years not knowing has kept me from leaving that time in the past.

I can only say that from my experience as a BW, I was dogged in needing to know all sorts of details about the affair, but for me, these were details about how he had conducted the affair, how they managed to be together and go away together, and how much and in what ways he continued to lie to me after my numerous D Days.

I want to know from how they meet to how it ended and everything in between. Everything. Yes I know you can not unhear an answer. Think first, ask second.

I took it as given that the sex was the best he had ever had, because I could work out that the conditions of any affair must produce these feelings. Dr Harley has said something to the effect that most affair partners will tell him that the sex was the best they had ever had, and he believes that it must have been. This is not, he said, because of the sexual acts themselves but because of the context. Long before I heard him say that on the radio, I believed that to be the case for my own H. At the time when we used to fight about the affair, I never asked him whether that was true because I "knew" (in my own head) that it was true. I did not need to humiliate myself by hearing him confirm that to me, and and I wouldn't have believed him if he'd told me otherwise.

I can only tell you that today, I don't feel second best to anybody; not in any aspect of what makes me me, and certainly not in terms of sex.

I realise that my H might still today think that the sex during the affair was the best of his life, but I don't care if he does. The sex during our marriage today is of a quality that makes him desire me often, and he pays me the utmost care and attention, and shows me much love and "lovingness", when it happens, so I am not going to spare any part of my brain to actively thinking about how it ranks alongside sex with her.

Like the poster brokenvase, I found out details about their conduct during the affair that hurt me. For example, that they sent sexy texts often during the day and definitely every single night before going to bed. They emailed frequently, and spoke on the phone every day, sometimes for over an hour. All this took place either at work, or on his work-provided mobile phone that he told me he only used when he was abroad, to ring the office.

As our courtship had taken place long before the days of email and mobile phones, I had never had a sexy text from my H (and I still don't have a mobile phone, so I couldn't get one even today. Neither does he have a mobile phone any longer). We didn't have a computer in the house so the only email address I had ever used was my work one, and I have never used that to send sexy emails to my H, as I think that would be inappropriate. I was quite shocked to find out that he was using his work email address to send sexy emails to her.

He bought her a ring, when she asked him to buy her a present "because we've been together for months now and you haven't bought me anything" (according to the account given to me by her H). She took him to the jewellers and picked out a ring that her H said (after he demanded it from her) looked like an engagement ring. I never had an engagement ring, and I have never been bought a ring since my wedding ring, so she has something there that I never had.

Natural to give and get gifts during an affair. Within a BS right that all gifts received be thrown out. As to getting a ring. If getting a bigger better ring is going to make the BW happy then her WH has to get one for his BW. Sight of any ring makes the BW then no matter how much a WH feels he needs to get one for his BW he is not allowed to because a ring will be a constant reminder of the OW for the BW.

They were both able to travel around Europe in their jobs, so they could each tell their spouse that they were travelling for work, while really travelling to meet the other person. So, OW spent nights alone in hotels rooms with my H, which I hadn't done since we'd had our first child 14 years earlier. Additionally, they travelled to some places that I had never been to, such as the lovely city of Lisbon in Portugal, which my H had, before marriage, described as one of his favourite cities. It hurt that I'd never been there.

So go to Lisbon if you can afford it. Many a BS go and reclaim affair places. To much of a trigger then never go.

There were things like that that they'd done that I had never done, and some that I probably won't ever do. Those things for me were for a long time like the sexual things seem to be for some BHs. They were things that I resented that he'd done with her and not me. So, if you can accept the comparability, I have some understanding of the feelings of resentment about specific things they did.

Have you asked your WH to do those things with you?

Today, however, I don't feel that those specific things that they did that we never did are an issue for my own self-esteem, or feelings of esteem within the marriage. There is resentment still about the affair as a whole, because it was a long one (a 5-year EA, conducted by telephone from his workplace, continued after he stopped travelling and the meetings between them ended, so it was 8 years in total), and because it included multiple D Days and continued lying and cruel gaslighting to me. But the issue of feeling second best, which is really an issue of self-esteem, has long gone.

This is due to many things; to the fact that my H dropped her and ran every time either I or her H found out about the affair; that doesn't say a lot about how much he valued her. (It doesn't say very much about his character then, either.) It is due to the fact that he seemed never to have planned to leave me, and did what Dr H said and begged me to take him back; to the fact that our kids have grown up and he could be gone, and yet he is here; it is due to the way that he treats me on a daily basis, which is loving and caring; and to the transparency and EPs that he willingly practices.

You are saying that for some BHs, the marriage and the BH cannot recover if the FWW does not give JC in the form of the acts that she did for the OM. I can only say that in my experience, my marriage is recovering and so I do not want JC in the form of doing what they used to do together. In fact, I can't think of anything worse than focusing on what they did. He took the sex that he could from her, knowing that she was putting out because she craved the romance and attention that he gave her. He had no intention of giving that romance to her out in the open, for life, alongside the commitments of paying her mortgage, becoming stepparent to her kids, paying the bills, mowing the lawn and meeting her boring parents every Sunday. He gave her the romance to get the sex, and she gave him the sex to get the romance. He used her badly, and she willingly became his whore, and she fell in love and left her H, and my H dumped her and would not leave me. It is too sordid for words, and I have long since stopped wanting to do anything that they did, or seeing his doing those things for me as JC.

Why on earth would I compare myself and my marriage to her and their affair, and why, if I did that, would I see myself as second best? Excuse me - that is unthinkable! I am incomparable to all that! I only want what I can build with my H from now on, and I do not waste my time wishing I had what she'd had. She has ruined her marriage and trashed her reputation, and I don't see how she can look at herself today and feel self-respect, and I feel nothing but pity for her.

My self respect is not in question. I haven't done anything within my marriage to feel ashamed of, and much, as a wife and mother, to feel proud of.

I'm not sure that telling you my strategy will help you or Gamma, but as I said, I'm not sure what will. I can only reiterate my experience that for me, progress along the path of recovery made the specifics of what they did recede further and further away.

Finally, my views of Gamma's strategy would be different if we were talking about an affair during the marriage that he was being denied details about. This is an infidelity from before they were married, which he was aware of and wiped the debt away by marrying his wife. This central concern of this whole thread is incomprehensible to me. What a waste of time and a life.

I do not know how competitive woman are in staking out their territory. On nature shows the male of the species is always in competition with other males. What you have done has worked for you.

Gamma's WW needs to tell him all. It may be more then he can handle. It may cause his marriage to fall apart. SHe needs to explain why she did the SF with the OM and why she will not do it for him. Once every thing is out in the open then they will be able to move forward. I guess Mrs G is happy to be in limbo. Happy enough to not risk being single again. The pay off of a better marriage after a final dday is not worth the risk to her.

A wife is not territory, she is a human being. Show her the best care, respect, and consideration she has ever gotten and you will have successfully beaten all the competition without treating her as a possession or as territory. Dr. Harley has often stated that one of the most amazing things about people is that they can make choices good for their life instead of being led around by destructive instincts.

Yet we do not want to share our wives.

Women are like light. Act like a wave. Act like a particle. They are not to be owned. Yet we won't share them.

Amen

This entire entitlement argument is completely irrelevant, because it is an obvious violation of POJA. Successful marriages require abiding by basic MB rules, POJA amongst the rest. If Gamma is unhappy about any aspect of SF, then they need to have a POJA discussion about it. That means they do nothing until a mutually enthusiastic agreement is reached. No SF at all until they enthusiastically agree on all aspects of SF. Does Gamma really think this is all that important? Because, if he does, then POJA is the way to go. Emotional blackmail over "second class" status has no place in a MB marriage.

Non sequitur - I said nothing that leads to the conclusion that this way prompts the wife to sharing intimacy with others.

The thing Marriage Builders helps with is this: when your wife is in love with you, the sex becomes WAY better. (And more frequent, more enthusiastic, etc.)

Dr. Harley has men who have been following this program, whose wives have suddenly fallen in love with them, calling them up and asking "What's going on? Do you think my wife is taking hormones?" The change is dramatic.

The science is here to show you how to get your wife to fall in love with you. Call Dr. Harley and get help. You deserve it.

The philosophy being debated here, to wit:

The Humiliation and Blackmail
Will Be Continued Until
FWW's Affection For Gamma
Authorizes Oral Sex!

brings to mind nothing so much as:



the only difference being that the second was intended as irony!

You have quite the imagination. What is the way that prompts the wife to sharing intimacy with others?

Here is IMHO the real question:

Gamma, do you want radical honesty from your wife, meaning she answers ALL your questions to your satisfaction, including WHY she engaged in OS with OM, (even if this does not lead to her having OS with you) OR

do you just want your wife to WILLINGLY engage in OS with you, even if you NEVER get radical honesty?

BV

bv, you are amaking a BIG mistake comapring Gamma's situation to yours.

You have recently found out about affairs that took place in your marriage. Gamma already knew that his girlfriend had been unfaithful to him when he married her. Marrying her wiped the chart clean. This was not an affair, nor an infidelity that he only recently found out about that, had he known about it at the time he was due to get married, he would not have married her. He knew and married her anyway. The debt and the need for compensation was paid off by the marriage.

It appears that even Gamma accepted this until a few years ago, when for some reason, his coming to Marriage Builders gave him the idea that the debt had never been resolved and he had been the victim of an affair (he wasn't) about which he had the right to find out intimate details. He can push for these if he wants, but do so, as well as arranging a meeting in between this man and his own wife, during which they hugged and revived their memories for weeks and months to come, is not the way to have the marriage he wants.

Your case is entirely different, and the proper place to talk about it is on your own thread. I'm not barring you from talking here (that isn't my place), but just saying that we could really help you on your own thread.

bv, to add to what I said about your own thread:

I think my experiences of finding out that they did "special things", and the way I dealt with that knowledge, could be useful to you. Did you read my monumentally long post? We could talk about this on your own thread.

Are you asking a serious question here, or are you testing this poster's MB knowledge?

In context, I assumed you not wanting to share your wife meant sharing her with another man which is intimate in nature. I dont agree my assumption was an imaginative leap on my part. Nevertheless, your response to what I wrote had nothing to do with the idea I presented; that treating your wife with the best care, respect, and consideration will beat the competition.

Not testing his knowledge.

I agree with the second part. Not on the first part because some of the things you have written did not make sense to me. your meaning was not clear on many things.

If I'm not clear, I'm happy to try to restate what I mean. I wish greater fulfillment for Gamma's and your marriages and try to write in a way that combines how I understand MB from a woman's point of view that also aligns with what Dr. Harley says.

I also think that there is great benefit in writing and talking to Dr. Harley himself and it's such an easy option to use.

All,

There is a great deal posted, I will attempt to respond to, been busy today.

However generally speaking, when I first stumbled on MB what I was taken with was the concept of radical honesty, and perhaps even more that radical dishonesty seemed to be the common sin if you will, in every case of infidelity I knew of and dishonesty prolonged the agony of the betrayed spouses and children.

I told my W everything I had ever done sexually and wanted the same from her, and this became for me a baseline I thought we would achieve someday.

God Bless
Gamma

BV,

Here is IMHO the real question:

Gamma, do you want radical honesty from your wife, meaning she answers ALL your questions to your satisfaction, including WHY she engaged in OS with OM, (even if this does not lead to her having OS with you) OR

YES I prefer this even if it lead to divorce. She may not have engaged in OS with OM btw, because she has said virtually nothing through the years about how physical the relationship was, with the exception that she had such overpowering attraction to OM2.

do you just want your wife to WILLINGLY engage in OS with you, even if you NEVER get radical honesty?

NO, NO, NO, if I wanted a woman who engages in sex unwillingly I suppose I could get a prostitute.

At one time in our relationship she was willing. Perhaps after her affair with OM2 she thought sex was dirty.

God Bless
Gamma

Are you unsure about whether they actually had sex? (I still don't understand exactly what you are trying to find out about their relationship, but I do see your point about historical honesty).

Has she said in the past that they did not have sex?

Has something happened since she told you that to make you suspect that they did have sex after all?

SC,

Gamma already knew that his girlfriend had been unfaithful to him when he married her. Marrying her wiped the chart clean. This was not an affair, nor an infidelity that he only recently found out about that, had he known about it at the time he was due to get married, he would not have married her. He knew and married her anyway. The debt and the need for compensation was paid off by the marriage.

In some ways that is true, however OM2 has gotten away without a scratch, OM2 debt has not been paid yet.

God Bless
Gamma

BV used the word "willingly", not "unwillingly" as you said.

What is your answer to the question that BV actually asked - about willing sex?

You use the same phrases over and over in your writings, Gamma, and I still don't understand what you mean.

What kind of scratch would be appropriate? Are you talking about telling his wife and kids what he did, or something else? Worse? What?

SC,

do you just want your wife to WILLINGLY engage in OS with you, even if you NEVER get radical honesty?

You are correct I answered a different question.

Yes I don't think I would resist if W suddenly wanted to give OS.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma, is your suspicion that your wife had a powerful relationship with this man, and her feelings for him altered the way she felt about you? She married you, but she was then, and perhaps for some time after, in love with him? You have never had the love and passion that it's reasonable to hope for in a marriage because of her feelings for him?

SC,

What kind of scratch would be appropriate? Are you talking about telling his wife and kids what he did, or something else? Worse? What?

A proportional response.

God Bless
Gamma

You have STIIL answered a different question from the one BV asked. She asked whether you wanted oral sex even if you never got radical honesty. That is not what you answered.

Her two questions have to be taken together. Are you trying to talk to OM, and OM's friends, and to read the love letters and get a confession if possible from your wife, because you want to know the truth about the relationship full stop, so you can make decisions about staying in the marriage (nothing to do with getting oral sex)

or,

Are you doing the above because you want to know the truth of the relationship, and because you think her confession will be a relief to her which will eventually improve your sex life and marriage,

or,

Are you doing the above principally to improve your sex life, but if that improves on its own you will give up seeking those answers?

SC,

Gamma, is your suspicion that your wife had a powerful relationship with this man, and her feelings for him altered the way she felt about you? She married you, but she was then, and perhaps for some time after, in love with him? You have never had the love and passion that it's reasonable to hope for in a marriage because of her feelings for him?

YES, that is a nicely concise way of what I have been trying to say. I can date sexual changes in W and my relationship to that time.

I did have hope that getting married would somehow improve her love and attraction for me, that I could love her enough to make her love me back.

Even after we were married she continued to work with OM2, and there was a time about 6 months into our marriage when she wanted to divorce me and couldn't give a reason. I think she recognized the impossiblity of a life with OM2 for social, financial, OMGF and family reasons.

God Bless
Gamma

Was he married when he had a relationship with your then girlfriend?

Did she really never give a reason? Did she just start saying one day that she wanted a divorce? What did she say when you asked her why? Come on Gamma, she must have said SOMETHING.

How did she subsequently let you know that she did not want a divorce? Did you talk her out of it? How did you do that - what did you promise her? Did she agree to give your marriage a try, or was the subject simply dropped? Did she become pregnant? What happened to stop the divorce?

It seems that he had a girlfriend at that time, not a wife.

SC,

Her two questions have to be taken together. Are you trying to talk to OM, and OM's friends, and to read the love letters and get a confession if possible from your wife, because you want to know the truth about the relationship full stop, so you can make decisions about staying in the marriage (nothing to do with getting oral sex)

Yes,

It's impossible to know how the truth will cause us to act, but we can't act until we know the truth.

I felt the same difficulty when I said yes when someone offered to tell me who my biological parent were, I'm an OC, and I said please tell me.

or,

Are you doing the above because you want to know the truth of the relationship, and because you think her confession will be a relief to her which will eventually improve your sex life and marriage,

Also yes, I understand my Ws sense of guilt.

or,

Are you doing the above principally to improve your sex life, but if that improves on its own you will give up seeking those answers?

NO not doing this to improve my sex life, and I would not stop seeking if I got sex twice a day from my W.

God Bless
Gamma

What would be proportional for this man having had a relationship, possibly a sexual one, with your girlfriend?

Could you answer this one, please, Gamma?

LL,

Was he married when he had a relationship with your then girlfriend?

Not when he had the affair with my W, prior to my W OM2 was with GF1 and GF1 thought W was the reason OM2 left her. After W OM2 married GF2.

I'm not sure when OM2 married GF2, however from the facebook page age and other sources, it appears GF2 may have been the reason OM2 dumped my W.

God Bless
Gamma

SC,

Are you unsure about whether they actually had sex? (I still don't understand exactly what you are trying to find out about their relationship, but I do see your point about historical honesty).

Yes I am unsure if they had sex, but given my W reluctance to speak on the topic, I feel if she had sex she would not ever confess.

Has she said in the past that they did not have sex?

Yes, but also denied that it was an emotional affair as well, and could not give an answer of any kind about what the relationship was.

Has something happened since she told you that to make you suspect that they did have sex after all?

Well the comment about OS being unsafe because of HPV. I would say the same thing if I had cheated because I would not expose my W to whatever infection I might have. There were numerous other statements.

God Bless
Gamma

HPV is linked to to throat and mouth cancers. Regardless, her giving you some logical reasons for why she doesn't want to do OS is what has prompted you to bringing up this past relationship that was not an affair for either party as if it were an affair?

Saying "that's what I would say if I had done..." is a disrespectful judgement. That just simply may not be what she is thinking.

Please write Dr. Harley. What are your reasons for not writing him?

How about some plain English?

What scratches, what debt to be paid?

If she has said that they never had sex, and she has said that they did not have an "emotional affair", could you please explain what happened 20 years ago when they were working together, that makes you define the relationship as an affair? What happened? Did they go out on dates? Did they spend a lot of time together having coffee and lunches? Was the whole office where they worked talking about the fact that they went around together?

When the woman you describe as GF1 says that she was dumped for your girlfriend, what does she mean? I get the "dumped" part, but what happened after that to make GF1 say that your girlfriend was the reason?

I'm sorry to keep firing questions at you, but I have found your story very hard to understand, because the way you write about it is not at all clear.

How about a recap?

How many OM?

How many before while dating?

How many after married?

You will not get close to the truth until a poly is done. And then there is no guarantee.

Can you live with WW if she refuses to take the test?

Can you live with the results because they are not 100% accurate?

Oral is just a smoke screen. WW has closed that door.

Are you saying that she has commented that oral sex is unsafe because of HPV? are you saying that you suspect that she does not want to give you oral sex because she fears she might have contracted HPV from the man 20 years ago, and is she concerned about you and does not want to pass on a disease to you?

If so, that is not the most logical deduction to make. If she has declined to give you oral sex and cited HPV as a reason, it would be logical to assume that she does not want to contract HPV from you. It would be more logical to assume that she fears you picked it up from your previous sexual partners, and she does not want to risk contracting an oral cancer from this.

Until he comes back, TheRoad, you could take a look at two posts from me on the first page of this thread, both dated 19 July 2013. They quote Gamma's words used in a previous thread on this subject.

Gamma, what are the details of the affair with OM3?

When did this supposed affair take place? How long into your marriage? Who was this man? Did they work together?

As far as you know, what did the affair consist of?

I believe you said you only found out about OM3 when she confessed to OM1,2 and 4. What did she confess about OM3?

Possible that WW never wanted to do oral. Disliked the thought of doing it. Enough to never try it.

Possible that OM got WW to try it. That it confirmed her suspicions that it was not her cup of tea (bag).

So you can rule out ever getting her agreement to do it. She tried with someone else first. Now if you were the first and then WW did not like it and did not want to do it any more you know that it would be taken off the table.

You have to kiss oral good bye. It is off the menu.


Contradictions


It has been said that the BS should reclaim things from the affair by doing them with the WS.

If WW did OM on a secluded beach at night and liked it.

Should WW have to do that with BH?


Should a WW have to do everything she did for the OM with her BH?


People have raised POJA. That to have the WW take one for the team against her will is wrong.


Now I will throw out this. A BH never got oral before he married. He always wanted to do it just once to know what it felt first hand as good as others made it seemed.

Hoped his future wife would try it once.

He married her. She said I do not like it, no. Then the H finds out he was a BH and WW did it for the OM. As said before WW found it not to her liking.

Is it right for the WW to deny her BH oral one time because unless he divorces his WW or has an affair the BH is never going to get oral. She will have gotten to experience oral but denies her BH the same experience.

Also WW gave something to her OM that she refuses to do for her BH.

A wife could had experimented with her husband and say no more I don't like it. That would be ok. She tried. The husband should not pester his wife to do it any more.

By not doing it for her BH as much as she did it for her OM she has left her BH second to her OM.

And this is denying the BH to reclaim his WW as is advised on MB forums.

They appear never to have had sex, TheRoad, or even an EA.

Is that how Dr. Harley advises? That a betrayed husband reclaims his wife? He talks about partnership, not ownership. He's been clear that just compensation isn't the WS gives BS whatever they want.

I am recalling what I have read from well respected MB posters have said.

Now that you had your question would you care to take on the questions that I raised?

I am recalling what I've heard Dr. Harley say on his radio show. What I wrote is the answer to "should a WW do... even if she isn't in enthusiastic agreement?"

The answer is "no."

Perhaps one thinks she should be in enthusiastic agreement to "take one for the team," and she's wrong for not agreeing. That's a disrespectful judgement.


Now, if the husband doesn't like "no," he can separate, but not use the pressure of obligation, guilt, or disrespect to try to make her do whatever it is.

p.s. I feel we may be going off-thread, here, so I'd be willing to discuss this in the "Other Topics" forum, but not any more on Gamma's thread.

Why did you bother to make this post?

All you did was rehash what you said before. I understood what you said then. Nothing new was accomplished. Except that you avoided addressing things I brought up. These things are meaningful to Gamma. Because him seeing them discussed he can find new ways to look at things and move forward.

This is not a black and white yes or no issue.

Things will have to weighed out to come to a good decision.

Affairs can not be undone. A balance has to be found for the recovery to be finished. Gamma and Mrs Gamma have dug their heels in and will not find away to meet each other half way.

Is oral a turn off for her?
Does oral force her to remember her affairs?
Is she that grossed out by oral?
Is she turned off by oral?
***EDIT***

Gamma needs the truth.

Gamma confuses wanting oral and needing oral.

Which does Gamma want the most oral or the truth?

I think Gamma is not using the need for the truth so he can forget and leave the affairs in the past.

I think he is using it to get SF back on track which is the wrong way.

He refuses to contact Dr Harley, because the Dr will call him out on this.

I don't view it that I was avoiding your questions, I honestly believe I was answering them, at least the general ones. The ones for Gamma, I can't answer.

I believe it is a black or white issue regarding using Lovebusters to get what one wants, if the goal is a mutually fulfilling marriage.

SC,

If she has said that they never had sex, and she has said that they did not have an "emotional affair", could you please explain what happened 20 years ago when they were working together, that makes you define the relationship as an affair? What happened? Did they go out on dates? Did they spend a lot of time together having coffee and lunches? Was the whole office where they worked talking about the fact that they went around together?

They went to lunch together constantly for a year or better, she was at his house, met his Mother, was in his bed room. We also went out on a to lunch in Chinatown on Sat., W, me and OM cute I paid. The place where they worked was large and mostly empty very few co-workers.

My W came to me one day completely devestated said she feels nothing for me and didn't think she could ever feel any thing for me again, because she had fallen in love with OM2. The more likely story is that OM2 ended it with W because of GF2 and my W decided to try again with me.

And she never again was the same with me, perhaps my never trusting her and the fear it created in me did not help either.

When the woman you describe as GF1 says that she was dumped for your girlfriend, what does she mean? I get the "dumped" part, but what happened after that to make GF1 say that your girlfriend was the reason?

This was related to me by my W with OM present, OM then said that his GF1 was an idiot, I never met the GF1 only know her first name.

God Bless
Gamma

LL,

HPV is linked to to throat and mouth cancers. Regardless, her giving you some logical reasons for why she doesn't want to do OS is what has prompted you to bringing up this past relationship that was not an affair for either party as if it were an affair?

And also genital and anal cancers, so a WW who kissed an OM with HPV could give her BH penile cancer by giving him oral. Although the probability might be low.

AGAIN THIS IS NOT ABOUT ORAL!

God Bless
Gamma

Was this before or after the wedding? If it was before, were you engaged at the time?

SC,

Before the wedding, don't remember if we were engaged or not, but to my thinking completely irrelevant, OM2 knew who I was and was a former coworker.

I understand their attraction, I understand that I had abandoned W emotionally, because I had started working long hours to build a career for myself and provide for my future W, I gained weight going from a brutal physical job to white collar work.

God Bless
Gamma

Did you think of their involvement as being an affair at the time (before she confessed her feelings about him, when they were spending all that time together) or did you see them as being just good friends?

Given that she told you before you were married, and possibly before you were engaged, that she had fallen in love with OM and had no feelings for you, why did you marry her? How did you feel when she told you? Did you break up for a while over this?

What did she say to you later, if anything, to make you feel that she was not still in love with OM and wanted to marry you? Did she ever tell you, after she confessed her feelings about him, that she loved you? Did you appear to fall back in love with each other and to want strongly to be together? Did she seem excited to be marrying you? (Was she pregnant when she married you?)

I am not telling you off for marrying her. I am trying to find out what was in your mind at the time to make you think that, despite the fact she told you she was in love with someone else, you wanted to marry each other.

SC,

Did you think of their involvement as being an affair at the time (before she confessed her feelings about him, when they were spending all that time together) or did you see them as being just good friends?

No I did not see it as an affair, although it bothered me a great deal. At the time I felt trapped as I had to establish a career and I hated having to leave my GF behind at my former company. I certainly did not have an understanding at that time of emotional affairs.

Given that she told you before you were married, and possibly before you were engaged, that she had fallen in love with OM and had no feelings for you, why did you marry her? How did you feel when she told you? Did you break up for a while over this?

I went numb, and at the time I felt that having my GF cheat on me was a risk inherent in having a very beautiful GF.

I had also become accustomed to large numbers of people hitting on my W. They were serious competition Drs, lawyers and I was a kid just starting out, so at the time I would have said something like "I'm surprised it only happened once or twice"

We did not break up over this, most likely because she told me this when OM2 & her had ended, so in a sense I was her rebound relationship, and she felt I had better long term prospects even if I wasn't as handsome as OM2.

What did she say to you later, if anything, to make you feel that she was not still in love with OM and wanted to marry you? Did she ever tell you, after she confessed her feelings about him, that she loved you? Did you appear to fall back in love with each other and to want strongly to be together? Did she seem excited to be marrying you? (Was she pregnant when she married you?)

I stupidly did not ask about OM2 again until many years later.

I think we just recovered gradually, and I was working so much I hadn't the time to notice, and I went into denial.

Looking at our wedding photos now I see that W did not look overjoyed, no not pregnant. Possibly the shame she felt about OM2 was a contributing factor in her marrying me.

God Bless
Gamma

Update gamma?

TheRoad,

Was going to update after I had spoken with OM2, as I don't expect any more admissions from my W. The topics had also been well covered in this thread.

Now it's a matter of patience and working through the different options and approaches.

Road have you been able to get anything more out of your W?

God Bless
Gamma

No.

TheRoad,

Do you have a medium/long term plan about what to do about your Ws silence?

Are their witnesses to the affair you can contact? Have you searched for keepsakes from the affair, letters etc.

God Bless
Gamma

No. The last time wife said next time I bring it up she is out the door. Not willing to call her bluff.

She see's that I refuse to ignore the elephant in the room. Though she choses to act as there is no elephant.






No physical evidence.

Her parents and sisters know in general though not to the specifics questioning would lead me to ask as info is revealed. They would not talk to me about it. They are loyal to her and would only want to protect her.

There was a friend that she met him through. Same for her friend protecting her. Again she would not know as much as my wife. Which would leave me wanting.

TheRoad,

No physical evidence.

Have you checked? I recall you said something about a piece of jewelry she kept as a reminder of her lost love. She might have saved away a letter from OM or his address.

After I blundered into MB a few years ago and my W became happier with our marriage, she threw our an address of a man she visited in another state quite awhile ago, which I pulled out of the trash.

Her parents and sisters know in general though not to the specifics questioning would lead me to ask as info is revealed. They would not talk to me about it. They are loyal to her and would only want to protect her.

There was a friend that she met him through. Same for her friend protecting her. Again she would not know as much as my wife. Which would leave me wanting.

Are these people who knew about the affair and supported it, still in your WWs life? How do you suffer that?

I know this is very common, but these people along with OM know more about some aspects of your marriage than you do. It's like a bond of mutual sin.

God Bless
Gamma

You have a good memory. Jewelry gone. If there was anything around it's gone now.

Wife's best friend is gone ever since we got back together. Except when child 1# was about 4 she ran into BF. BF mom at that time lived across the street one house over from wife's child hood home and her parents still live there. BF family long gone from the block.

Wife and friend had a young child each and restarted their friendship. I refused to participate. My wife said along the lines what happened in the past was past. How her friend had also moved forward. When we got back together wife was asked how she met OM she told me through BF. So that set off the alarm when wife wanted to have contact with her friend. Wife said you are not going to say who my friends are going to be. I said there only can be NC with her friend and me. Wife asked why? Because BF put you and the OM together. Wife tried to down play that. I held to NC, This was pre MB, cell, PC days. Wife told me after 6 months, a year, the friendship ended for the 2nd time. During this reconnect time Wife pointed out how nice she was to child 1 and bought him a gift. She tried to get me on board on with being friends.

Wife told me after 6 months, a year, the friendship ended. I asked why. Wife got uncomfortable body language and words came out awkward. Damage control mode. Wife said BF would not be friends with her and child 1 because I would not accept her BF.

I asked wife did you tell her BF the reason I wanted NC was because the OM was a friend of her's and her husband and they set her up with the OM. Wife danced around that one. She was sad at the loss of her BF from her child hood into adult hood.

Her sisters where kids. I doubt they encouraged her. Her mom told her dating the OM was wrong we were separated but still married.

So I would not call it a mutual bond of sin.

So asking her sisters would not get the details I would need. Think that they would not talk about it because they would not tell what little that they know because they want to protect their sister. Same for their mom. You can not blame them.

I doubt her friend would talk to me. How much does she remember about my wife and the OM? Or remember about the time they restarted the friendship, how it began and how and why the friendship ended for the 2nd time.

The few times I got trickle truthed.

The last time the questions started to cause conflicts because they were losing their generalness creeping to details. Along with wife being asked why does the answer you gave me the last time to not match the answer this time. Caused wife to refuse to talk about the affair any more. Such as how she met her OM.

When the friendship restarted I brought up how wife told me her BF and her husband had a barbecue/party at their house. Invited friends over. OM was the only guy there without a date and wife was the only girl there alone. They hung out together as couples. This is why I will not see them.

So then my wife then changed to OM was not really in their circle of friends. OM and her did not mix with BF and her husband.

Gut says the first story may or may not be true.

Gut knows that the second version was damage control to salvage her restarted friendship. Gut says everything has been damage control and trickle truthing.



If wife would tell me the whole story today how would I know that I got the whole truth now?

TheRoad,

You have a good memory. Jewelry gone. If there was anything around it's gone now.

How long did it take for her to get rid of it.

When we got back together wife was asked how she met OM she told me through BF.

I would contact that BF, perhaps you can do it anonymously or posing as your wife, or posing as some other male.

During this reconnect time Wife pointed out how nice she was to child 1 and bought him a gift. She tried to get me on board on with being friends.

Funny how the witnesses to affairs seem to have their own kind of guilt, a woman, I think my W confessed to, offered to let us use their beach home, and was very strange around me.

Wife told me after 6 months, a year, the friendship ended. I asked why. Wife got uncomfortable body language and words came out awkward. Damage control mode.

BF might have started an affair with OM crushing your W?

Her mom told her dating the OM was wrong we were separated but still married......her sisters would not get the details I would need.

Do you still see these people and how do you stand that they know and you don't. I know in my Ws family everyone except my MIL knew for years and years and I occasionally have discussions with my W about telling MIL the whole story, as I feel bad for MIL.

I doubt her friend would talk to me. How much does she remember about my wife and the OM? Or remember about the time they restarted the friendship, how it began and how and why the friendship ended for the 2nd time.

Perhaps at the least the OMs name, does BF have a facebook could be OM is on it?

So then my wife then changed to OM was not really in their circle of friends. OM and her did not mix with BF and her husband.

This drift is not that uncommon, one of the coworkers of OM2 worked with my W for perhaps a year, the story from my W changed to that she only worked with him for a week! My W adored him as well, but if anything happened with him I suspect it was a ONS.

If wife would tell me the whole story today how would I know that I got the whole truth now?

You don't even have the basic facts, who, what, where, when,why and how.

Neither do I and I see this resolving in a few ways.

-OM2 spills, when I go to speak with him
-When I speak with some of the other witnesses
-W spills spontaneously, she seemed on the verge a few times
-W spills after we separate, or to prevent a divorce

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma,

You're looking for answers in the wrong places. You use manipulative and dishonest tactics in an attempt to get what you want without considering what damage it does to others, and even advise someone else to use dishonesty if they "have" to. The answer is to drop using these tactics. Women usually don't fall in love with a man that consistently has a trick up their sleeve.

It seems to me that you want your wife to be in love with you, so work on being and behaving like someone she would fall in love with, and if she's meeting your needs and not engaging in Lovebusters, allow yourself to fall in love with her. It appears that there's always some reason you have to not integrate with her, and she's not oblivious to this.

The answer you seek is in how you behave, how you treat her, how you approach her, whether you're providing an environment of care, not in some premarital relationship she had with someone else.

How long did it take for her to get rid of it.


Too long. Claimed to of gotten rid of it twice. Third time it appeared it was thrown into the ocean by me.

I would contact that BF, perhaps you can do it anonymously or posing as your wife, or posing as some other male. She has an extremely jealous husband. If I contact her posing as my wife. She can contact her directly afterward maybe wanting to restart their old friendship. A mess that is not needed.


BF might have started an affair with OM crushing your W?


Gamma what are you smoking or drinking?

I think her BF felt that I had should of moved past her playing cupid and setting up wife with the OM.

Or the story my wife told me how she met OM through BF was just a lie. I do not even know what my wife told her friend why I refused to be friends with them. Wife could of lied to her friend why I would not be friends with them.

I do not know what happened and it drives me crazy. Did BF know I held it against her for playing match maker? Or did wife try to do damage control with the BF?

All I do know is what wife said that her friend ended the second period of their friendship. All wife said was that BF said we can't be friends if your husband will not be friends. What is the truth?


Have not seen the BF in over 30 years.

I know as soon as I ask her parents they will not answer me. Though they will tell wife I was asking about the OM. Talk about the manure hitting the fan.


God Bless
Gamma

LL,

You're looking for answers in the wrong places. You use manipulative and dishonest tactics in an attempt to get what you want,

So how do you get answers from a recalcitrant spouse?

without considering what damage it does to others,

And this damage is?

It seems to me that you want your wife to be in love with you,

W says she is?

God Bless
Gamma

You DO understand don't you that it is not our right to get 'whatever we want' from our spouses. No matter how justifiable.

RH is an important EN. Do you really think an important EN can be tricked and wheedled out of somebody?

You have only the options of encouraging honesty, letting it go or leaving.

But I'm not convinced you can be trusted with RH when you take such extreme measures.

Taking her to MEET him as a trick was so disrespectful and careless.

Do you plan on giving her the RH she is owed that it was actually a set up? That you are careless about NC?

Your use American language is very good being it is your second language.

Gamma and TheRoad,

Yesterday's show talks about an issue as similar to yours as an example can get - please listen to it before it goes into the archives. It plays until noon Central today, under "Listen Now".

LL,

Nice program, I would like to know what the good doctor would do had it been his wife who had been lying to him for years.

God Bless
Gamma

Why don't you email him and ask him?

You evade. I know he wouldn't keep pressing until she didn't want conversation any more. He would either divorce or reconcile, reconciliation being once you know how the affair started, what vulnerabilities to guard and protect, you go forward without bringing up the affair again. If one can't do that, then divorce for if one doesn't, it's not a good or great marriage anyway. It's at best purgatory.

You come across as knowing your wife is lying and you know that because you know the truth already. Like the husband said on the radio, you may be trying to force her to "own it," that is, agree the truth is what you say it is. Dr. Harley said that with enough pressing for more and more information over an extended time, the former WS may say they remember something that wasn't even so. You're making her cough up bile and calling that trickle truth.

How does one know their wife does not really remember or is just telling her husband she does not remember.

Thing is it appears that a wife would rather stay in limbo forever then tell the truth.

Remember what? If it's who the AP was, how it started, or essentially the things one needs to know for the sake of EP's, then the necessary components of JC are not in place. If it's more and more gory details, that won't help the recovery of the marriage, it harms it.

"Thing is it appears that a wife would rather stay in limbo forever than tell the truth" is an incredibly disrespectful judgment.

If you think you don't know something important, and can't believe your wife, then the best option out there is a polygraph. Some would be thankful of that option if it could clear them and put the question(s) to rest.

I never got the OM's name. Wife claims to not remember it. Wife claims to not remember the little she has already told me in the past. Wife even years ago claimed to not remember.

As to details I never got that far in asking. I doubt they can be worse then I could imagine. I used the word could because I have not let my imagination run away. Even after all these years.

I do not like that she gave up things to him. Whatever they were. I feel that what she gave to him she gave them to easily.

Thirty plus years ago no lap tops, MB, or Dr H. When we got back together wife said we can not take about what happened. I said why is there anything that happened that I would not like. Wife said no. So I mistakenly let things go.

Thing is things caused me to trigger every few years and wife would trickle the smallest crumb of truth. This happened four or five times. To where the last time was in about 2004.


"Thing is it appears that a wife would rather stay in limbo forever than tell the truth" is an incredibly disrespectful judgment.


Why do you say this? She is pretending that I have know desire to hear the truth. Or choosing to ignore my need for the truth. She will not give the truth that I have asked for. So she stands in no mans land with me.

It is disrespectful for her to treat me as a child and make her alone decide what I need to know. She told me 30 plus years ago that nothing happened that would upset me. That was not true. We got back together based on that nothing happened.

Now she does not want to remember. Tough.

She needed to tell me all back then. Then she could say now that she does not want to try and remember what happened because she has blocked it out. That there would be no point in talking about it now. I already know everything.

Though it did not happen that way 30 years ago. I still do not know the OM's name. I do not know if wife and I ever crossed paths with the OM.

And if she woke up tomorrow and was to tell me all that happened at this point I do not think I would believe that she has not held anything back.

How would I know that I got it all?

What could she do to make me believe her?

How could she prove what she was to divulge?

Okay, not knowing who the AP was is one of the JC things left undone. I feel that you have a right to know, I don't argue otherwise. However, you can't continue with disrespect, it's not making a happy marriage. I think this issue about knowing who he is would be a great radio question for Dr. Harley. What do you think?

LTL would you believe your wife if she said I do not remember the OM's name?

Whether I would believe it or not, the fact remains I'm left with a decision to make: be disrespectful about it, demand an answer, or choose to end the marriage because I couldn't truly reconcile without knowing.

You didn't answer what you think of asking Dr. Harley about it.

I have emailed Dr Harley twice. Not about this and not ready to do so now.

Now please answer would you believe or not believe if your WW could not remember her OM name?

Anyway thank you for responding.

TheRoad,

I do not like that she gave up things to him. Whatever they were. I feel that what she gave to him she gave them to easily.

That's one feeling which is very difficult to shake, on a rational level I know that a affair is often more intense than an honest relationship because there is the simultaneous repulsion from the BS and attraction to the AP. The betrayed spouse is sometimes left comparing his relationship to the affair relationship for the rest of his life.

It is disrespectful for her to treat me as a child and make her alone decide what I need to know. She told me 30 plus years ago that nothing happened that would upset me. That was not true. We got back together based on that nothing happened.

There is a paternalistic attitude, my W has it, that the details no longer matter, she said one time she would never disclose sexual details.

Though it did not happen that way 30 years ago. I still do not know the OM's name. I do not know if wife and I ever crossed paths with the OM.

Think hard about your Ws collection of friends, you might already know who it is.

And if she woke up tomorrow and was to tell me all that happened at this point I do not think I would believe that she has not held anything back. How would I know that I got it all?

You won't get it all, but you will get enough when her stories line up and are at least self-consistent. At this point you have 1 cent on the dollar, 10 cents on the dollar is still 10 times what you have now.

What is important is that she tells you everything you remember, so she is being as truthful as she can be with you.

What could she do to make me believe her? How could she prove what she was to divulge?

If OM is still alive you could compare stories, even if he is dead OMs W might know what happened, men like to brag about their conquests. If you know who OM is you may be able to speak with his old friends as well.

God Bless
Gamma

TheRoad,

Now please answer would you believe or not believe if your WW could not remember her OM name?

How can your WW forget a man when she kept his jewelry for years and years?

It's absurd, and what's worse in someways is that your WW got her family to lie along with her.

God Bless
Gamma

You go over the top to easy. Her family never lied. I never asked them anything.

I do not like that she gave up things to him. Whatever they were. I feel that what she gave to him she gave them to easily.

That's one feeling which is very difficult to shake, on a rational level I know that a affair is often more intense than an honest relationship because there is the simultaneous repulsion from the BS and attraction to the AP. The betrayed spouse is sometimes left comparing his relationship to the affair relationship for the rest of his life.



Rephrase gave things up to him to easy I meant it made me feel less special because for what she gave me she showed she could give it up to others.


It is disrespectful for her to treat me as a child and make her alone decide what I need to know. She told me 30 plus years ago that nothing happened that would upset me. That was not true. We got back together based on that nothing happened.

There is a paternalistic attitude, my W has it, that the details no longer matter, she said one time she would never disclose sexual details.

Though it did not happen that way 30 years ago. I still do not know the OM's name. I do not know if wife and I ever crossed paths with the OM.


Think hard about your Ws collection of friends, you might already know who it is.


Again you jump to conclusions to fast. I do not think that we ever cross paths with the OM. My gut never felt NC was broken. Though not knowing who my opponent is left me feeling at a disadvantage then and still feeling that way now. I told my wife that how am I to protect my hen house when I do not know who to protect it from.


And if she woke up tomorrow and was to tell me all that happened at this point I do not think I would believe that she has not held anything back. How would I know that I got it all?


You won't get it all, but you will get enough when her stories line up and are at least self-consistent. At this point you have 1 cent on the dollar, 10 cents on the dollar is still 10 times what you have now.


One cent on the dollar is where I am now. Waiting this long ten cents on the dollar is not going to cut it any more. I want ninety nine cents on the dollar now. Let her be able to forget one percent because due to the time that has passed.


What is important is that she tells you everything you remember, so she is being as truthful as she can be with you.


The problem is she no longer remembers the misdirection's that she told me. So I believe that is another reason she does not want to talk about back then because she does not remember what she has told me over the years. So she does not want to get caught for lying on top of trickle truthing.

I remember the last time we spoke WW got disconcerted that I had remembered every detail she had told me previously.


What could she do to make me believe her? How could she prove what she was to divulge?


If OM is still alive you could compare stories, even if he is dead OMs W might know what happened, men like to brag about their conquests. If you know who OM is you may be able to speak with his old friends as well.


There was no OMW, no OMGF. It is safe to assume wife's best friend and her husband still live where they did 30 years ago. They would not be willing to tell me anything. Remember OM was coworker and or friend of BF husband. At least what my wife led me to believe. So they are not going to want to help me. Then soon as they hang up the phone the BF is going to call my wife telling her that I was asking questions. Then I do not know how much the BF and Husband socialized with wife and OM then. Or how much my wife confided in her friend at that time.

Then looking back the first time my wife said her friend fixed her up with the OM. The last time after her BF told her that they could not be friends any more because I would not be friends with them. I asked my wife does she not understand that her BF is dead to me because she set you up with the OM. To which my wife downplayed the BF and Husband connection to the OM. That it was almost nothing between them and the OM.

I then pointed out how version 1 and version 2 of how she met the OM was not matching. She was surprised that I remembered what she said years prior. Stated that she did not remember what she said the first time. Then would not talk any more.

Did wife tell me the truth the first time. Or was that an excuse made up for my benefit. Or was the second time the truth. Her BF just dumped when she told me the second time. So it would appear that my wife no longer needed to defend her so she told me the truth. But it was not very truthful for my wife at that time still did not explain exactly how OM and her got together.

TheRoad,

There was no OMW, no OMGF. It is safe to assume wife's best friend and her husband still live where they did 30 years ago. They would not be willing to tell me anything. Remember OM was coworker and or friend of BF husband. At least what my wife led me to believe. So they are not going to want to help me. Then soon as they hang up the phone the BF is going to call my wife telling her that I was asking questions. Then I do not know how much the BF and Husband socialized with wife and OM then. Or how much my wife confided in her friend at that time.

I suggested this because you are at a dead with and no other sources of information, you might not get what you want but it may be your only shot.

At the very least it may bring you and your W into conflict, which was a part of the reason I brought my W to meet OM2. There is some chance your WW will spill when she gets angry.

There was a poster on here about 2 or so years ago who contacted the OM and gained his confidence, which he was then able to get his WW to spill not just about that OM but 2 or 3 others.

I don't recall the name, although I emailed him directly when he had accidentally revealed his real name in the forum.

God Bless
Gamma

TheRoad,

You go over the top to easy. Her family never lied. I never asked them anything.

To withhold such information and pretend to be family is cruel, it's one of the uglier sides of infidelity in that witness keep their mouth shut.

Get off the dime and ask them.

God Bless
Gamma

Radio Clip
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

BrainHurts,

Thanks for posting those shows. I think it was from awhile back, perhaps a rebroadcast?

I don't know if you noticed, but "Tims" WW went under hypnotherapy to rebuild the timeline of her affair from 15 years ago. So the BH probably felt he has 85% or more of the information he wants.

Dr Harley also reconstructed the WWs timeline.

If I had even the outline and non-contradictory stories I might give up the hunt. Now there is a non-linear weighting to the details, for example the sexual details are worth 75% of the total, so I might stop if I just got those. Right now it's not above the threshold of acceptability.

God Bless
Gamma

It's from the 9-09-13 show that I think LifetimeLearner mentioned to you.

ML Jr thank you for thinking this would be of interest to me.

My wife misled me. She told me nothing really happened that would upset me. That they only went to a few movies a diner.

Well how she met and left the OM story changed, as it turns out it went to oral, then all the way but only once. As you can see this little bit of info took 25 years to come out. For 35 years I went from believing her initial story. Then something she would do would cause me to recall the past which would cause me to question what she has said that happened in the past. Then a sentence or two would be said and she would say there was nothing else to tell. This trickle truthing took about 24 years. Last attempt by me to get more info was about 4 years ago with a flat out refusal to talk any more about the past.

I have been left so long not knowing and being denied the whole truth I can not settle for less. Why should hearing what my wife would tell me be worse then I could imagine or have read about what other WW's have done.

I agree that bringing up the past will never let one forget the past.

Though spending so much time trying to figure out the past for so long and being frustrated for not getting the whole truth I feel that I will never settle for anything but the whole truth before I can stop talking about the past.

Wanting the truth has kept me from forgetting the past.

And, keep me from forgetting the past.



Dr Harley's advice telling that BH to let the past go comes across to me as him trying to handle this BH. He comes across as my wife has been handling me.

Dr Harley said his wife is being honest with him. Well being honest with Dr H is different then they way she with holds info from her BH. That is not being honest that is lying by omission.

I find it a problem with this WW's honesty. She has two affairs already. She has admitted that when she is not happy in a marriage she will go looking for OM number 3.

Too me that is just a WW admitting that she is a serial cheater. There is no indication that she has changed or working on changing her serial cheating ways.

Dear TheRoad:

I completely agree with this.

My story is somewhat similar - my H lied to me for almost 30 years. When he came clean, he told me about things he had lied about as far back when we were dating in high school; information I had incorporated into my history for almost 30 years.

Because there was so much gaslighting and "truth"-trickling (I have a hard time thinking of trickles as truth), I don't feel I will ever have the real story.

To this day, he claims he never had intercourse with the OW; this is highly unlikely due to the circumstances of the affair.

I have not asked him for a polygraph because I'm not ready to get a divorce.

When I am, then I will.

But, like you, I can only let go of what I KNOW. I still feel compelled to seek out the unknown, and this definitely keeps the past in the present.

Much MB advice hinges on the betrayed spouse having all of their questions about the affair(s) answered.

What do you do when that will NEVER happen?

Good luck -

BV

You do not have to get a divorce because you finally got the whole truth. So not getting a poly does not make sense.

When trying to fill in the missing gaps the pits of affair knowledge can not be forgotten because you need these reference points remembered to get the affair story completed.

So not knowing what a BS needs to know just keeps the affair memories alive. WS's are able to forget what happened because they are not burdened with trying to figure out missing pieces to the story. There are no missing pieces for them.

Brain Hurts, did you answer all of your BH's questions?

Did your BH just accept an overall story line?

Or did you BH require some in depth detail?

Or was your BH the type that had to get every detail heard and he did exactly that?

TheRoad,

This trickle truthing took about 24 years. Last attempt by me to get more info was about 4 years ago with a flat out refusal to talk any more about the past.

There is an insult from infidelity which does not diminish with time but grows with each year that the wayward spouse keeps the lie alive.

One root of the problem is that the wayward spouse, the other person and who knows who else knows the truth and the betrayed spouse does not.

@TheRoad will you eventually divorce your WW?

God Bless
Gamma

Maybe you could select some or all of this well regarded letter that has made the rounds on various infidelity and marriage forums. It was written from a BH to his WW, seeingly in the midst of the recent D-Day, but i am sure you could apply this to your situation that addresses the haunting feelings you have carried for way too many years now.

One way or another, you have to either let go or get enough answers.

But what boundaries and consequences will you steadfastly stick to if you do not get the answers you desire?

If you will not walk away from the marriage, then you eventually need a way to find peace with never fully knowing the entire historical truth. She has NO Reasons to follow through without any consequences.

This i a huge weight that both spouses do not need to continue bearing the weight of around their hearts.

LTL

.

Joseph's Letter

This is a letter from Joseph to his wife. He was a part of a now defunct message forum.

****************************** *******************************

I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly.

No one wants to be forced to 'look' at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge.

You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the 'STUFF' to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down.

To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever 'feel' complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are.

When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important.

Then later when I'm expected to understand the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it.

You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart.

I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together.

It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world.

No.

???

No to what?

You don't want to know the historical truth?

You don't want to initiate a dialogue delving into the past about the affair with your?

You don't like that particular letter, so will not use it?

You don't want to deal with the potential conflict that addressing this issue would possibly encourage?

Or, you truly don't want to resolve the situation and just like continuing venting about it?

Or some other reason that you haven't stated?

Even if it's the 2nd to last one, do you really ever find peace not moving forward?

LTL

It's a response to Gamma: "@TheRoad will you eventually divorce your WW?"

Thank you.

I was confused by the abrupt response.

LTL

Stop jumping to conclusions.

No more flying off the handle.

You will get better work outs other ways.

Have you never noticed that when you click on reply on the very last post on a thread that your post then appears with a little box towards the top upper right side. It indicates that you responded to that post.

Now the post in where I said "No" the upper box indicates that I applied to Gamma. I intentionally hit the reply button on his post box because I wanted to indicate that my post would be directed as a reply to Gamma.

I do not always use that feature though some times after reading a thread I will click on the last post's reply button. Because I just want to reply to the thread. So even though the reply box will indicate a specific poster there was no intent to do so.

I have known about Joseph's letter for many years. I have never used that letter though I have used some of the concepts with my wife on how she knows the whole story and can leave it in the past. I can not leave the story in the past because I am still trying to fill in the gaps.

She shakes her head in that it makes sense but will not fill in the gaps.

I understand her not wanting to recall the past. Her finding it hard to say what happened. How much is it me not wanting to push her to talk because it will hurt her and me knowing what she will say will be painful for me to hear.

Maybe that is why I have been hesitant to have my wife read Joseph's letter.

BrainHurts are you going to leave me hanging here?


Maybe tomorrow I'll send Dr H an email. About the radio show that you linked to me and what I have written here since you posted that link.

TheRoad,

My situation/answers will not help your situation.

I think writing Dr. Harley would be an excellent idea.

Is your wife willing to go on the show with you?

My questions were very general. Those questions were not asking what you told your BH. They are asking how much depth did he require. I was not looking for actual details. Leave me asking it is your right to not answer.

BrainHurts,

My situation/answers will not help your situation.

Do you feel some sort of kinship with My W and TheRoads W? A virtual minimal details club perhaps.

God Bless
Gamma

I answered ALL my H questions and held nothing back.

That is why my situation would not help yours. We never talk about the affairs ever again. We've moved past that.

BH,

That is why my situation would not help yours.

Perhaps you have something relevant, what was it made you feel you should or could tell your H the truth. How did you overcome your shame/embarrassment/fear?

I might not be able to reply, if you respond, until Monday or so.

God Bless
Gamma

"I answered all my H's questions and "held nothing back" is a non answer.


If your BH asked for minimum detail, and you held nothing back then you gave very little detail.

If your BH asked for medium detail then you held nothing back means you gave a medium level of detail.

If your BH asked for maximum detail then you held back nothing means you held back nothing because you gave every detail.

BH/MLjr, What level of detail did your BH go for?

I'm curious as to why this matters?

Everyone is different. If BrainHurts BH didn't want to know all of the details of her A, will it suddenly make you not want to know the details of your WW's A?

I don't think that's how it works. So how would her answer help your situation?

For what it's worth, my H didn't want very many details. He didn't really ask many questions. He was much more concerned with working on our marriage than he was finding out every last detail of the A. But we did talk about it and he has never said that he has unanswered questions or that he would like to know more.

BH/MLjr, What level of detail did your BH go for?

I'm curious as to why this matters?

Everyone is different. If BrainHurts BH didn't want to know all of the details of her A, will it suddenly make you not want to know the details of your WW's A?


No.


I don't think that's how it works. So how would her answer help your situation?


Curious to how deep in detail (me knowing the actual details is not my goal, that is why I use words as a little, medium, everything to help get a picture) she told and how much detail the BH wanted. Then knowing the level of detail would lead to questions. Did she regret telling the amount that she did? If she could of told more does she regret not revealing more or happy that she did not have to reveal all to her BH?

Did her BH regret asking for the level of detail that he did? Did he ever wish he had asked for more detail then asked for or rather had asked for less or even not asked at all?


For what it's worth, my H didn't want very many details. He didn't really ask many questions. He was much more concerned with working on our marriage than he was finding out every last detail of the A. But we did talk about it and he has never said that he has unanswered questions or that he would like to know more.


Over the years I have read WW's that were worried about that their BH would not talk about the affair. These WW's wanted to recover their marriages very much and were prepared to tell all about their affair to their BH. They were worried that their BH not asking questions would not allow recovery to take place.

What these WW did not know that for some BH that knowing the affair was over. That NC was in place. That the WW was not going to leave them was all their BH needed to know. That not every BH had to know everything about the affair.

W1, I ask because I do not remember did your BH upon dday want to divorce you or did he want to recover?

Writer1,

For what it's worth, my H didn't want very many details.

That's always worrisome when I hear about a BH who doesn't as for details, I think in many of those cases the BH internalizes the pain and moves on wounded but in denial of his wounds. I kinda think of it as "swallowing the grenade" rather than throwing it at OM.

God Bless
Gamma

If you can't get the details you think you need, that your FWW's aren't coming clean and you can't even really consider restoring the marriage without it, then start the process of separation. The only one making you live in limbo misery is yourself. Every day that you blame your wife for the misery you're in because she won't do what you feel is the right thing is another day the blame shifts more to you.

Why are you worrying about someone who can successfully put the past behind them and live happily in the present?

Obsessing on an affair produces an insatiable need. Even if the BS had videos of the entire affair, that would not be enough. Then, the BS would want to know the details of what the APs were thinking. Then there's why they would think that way, and then there is why they didn't think another way, etc.,etc.

Don't worry for those who have moved on, rather, seek to join them.

I disagree.

A BH is not in denial. He knows his WW had an affair. He does not ask because even though he can say to himself did my WW do this, that, or whatever. By not knowing he can let the image pass quickly because it is hard to keep the mind focused on what of might happened. The BH knowing what happened makes it harder to not think about it and forget. Though with time the BH does forget and the recalls and triggers happen less and pass as quickly as they were recalled.

This BH is right to not want to be able to know that much. It is what is right for him. He is not in any denial. He knows his WW banged the OM. He knows that his WW most likely did everything that she did for him she for the OM. He does not need to have what he suspects most likely happened confirmed.

The thing is with the BH that can not stop trying to put the pieces together. The BH trying to get the whole story because him not knowing everything that happened he will never move on to the next phase in recovering. That BH then has to have every detail.

Basically Dr Harley say's that knowing the truth that the WW had an affair, how long the affair lasted, how the affair ended is enough. Knowing more will make forgetting the affair harder.

Though by not knowing what a BH wants to know. Leaves him stalled constantly thinking about the affair. Constantly reexamining the few pieces of evidence that the BH posses forever trying to figure out all the missing pieces. So the BH is left daily thinking about what happened 10, 20, 30+ years ago.

We both want to stay married.
She is trying to wait out my need to know against her need to not tell.

My BH never wanted a divorce. He wanted to recover the marriage.

My case was unusual in that I told my BH about the affair almost immediately. Then, I spent six months waffling back and forth trying to decide if I wanted to stay or leave to be with the OM. I suppose my BH was in some form of Plan A during this time (he'd read a little on MB but not much, so probably not a textbook Plan A). But he was definitely committed to recovering the marriage during this time. Even after I told him I was pregnant with OC, he never wavered. I think his complete and total commitment to saving our marriage was what eventually brought me around and made me end the A.

But we've had plenty of struggles since then. We've always had difficulty getting in the necessary UA time and meeting each other's EN's. There are still a lot of needs not being met. Sometimes I wonder if we'll be a work in progress for the rest of our lives.

But the A's (both his and mine) rarely come up anymore. I am a firm believer in not constantly dredging up the past once you have committed to recovering your marriage.

Gamma,

Have you taken a look at the Personal History Questionnaire here?

I absolutely do understand your need for historical honesty in your marriage, but you really are going about getting it the wrong way. I hope you will consider using Marriage Builders concepts towards reaching your goal.

Mrs. W

Did she tell you she had a need to not tell or is this a DJ?

That was not an exact quote of my wife stating her position. I can not quote her exact words on not wanting to talk about what happened. I can say that her meaning the last time I brought up the past was that she refuses to talk about what happened.

I can not rest being left in the dark and she can rest leaving me in the dark. She wants me to forget the past. She said she has forgotten all about it.

The little of the story that she has told has changed enough times so how do I know that she does not remember now?

Also with me able to remember what she has told me in the past then calling her on that is not they way the story went the last time she told it.

Has it left her now not wanting to talk about what happened in the past is because she does not remember the damage control story that she originally gave?

Thus is she wanting to avoid getting caught lying while she trickled truth me?

The past is alive because not knowing keeps me wondering with the little information that I have what is the rest of the story.

TR, as MrsW says about Gamma, I fully understand your need to know what went on in your marriage. I don't think you are at all wrong for persisting in trying to get the details. Not knowing even who OM was is unacceptable, and it is unacceptable for your wife to decide what you do or do not need to know about your own life.

What I don't understand is why you ask the particular questions you ask of the FWW here. How are you hoping to use the information, should you ever get it, about how much they remember and how much they divulged? How are you intending to use this to change your own situation?

Like I said, you are choosing to stay in a marriage when you aren't getting the truth you need. The suggested next step is a separation (during which you ARE still married), but you choose not to do so. You are choosing to stay in a marriage that isn't recovering, and so is Gamma.

I think both of you have situations where Dr. Harley could help you if you wrote the radio show.

With my wife changing her story. It showed me that she was not truthful. If every WW her on MB can remember every single detail then I should expect my wife to be able to remember every thing. If every WW on MB can not even remember anything then it would seem that my wife can not remember anything.

I need a comparison point. If most WW can recall 90% of what happened then chances are my wife should recall 90%. At this point I refuse to believe that my wife can not remember anything.

Maybe my wife confused never thinking about the past, being able to keep it blocked out, is the same as not being able to recall the truth if she tried. Also that can be her spin into damage control to "claim that she does not remember" is that she never voluntary recalls or triggers about the past.

Unfortunately to many people talk as politicians these days.

I do not need the WW's here to tell me everything that happened in their affair. Though in general terms them sharing how much they told their BH's gives me a basis on how much they truly remembered.

Also gaining insight on how important was finding out for their BH's about the affair was for their BH's.

TR, women have better memories than men concerning things of an emotional nature. I'm pretty sure Dr Harley has mentioned or alluded to this fact numerous times in his articles and their radio show...My opinion? WWs remember.

Here's an excerpt from a quick search. Google is your friend btw

Long Term Memory in Women

...A study published in the journal Current Directions in Psychological Science showed evidence that women had better long-term episodic memories. These are the types of memories such as events. Women tend to remember events based on verbal cues, whether written or spoken. Women would also be more likely to remember parties and functions associated with emotion...

Do you think your fww is faithful now? Are EPs in place? Do you want to remain married?
If so; I would leave this thing alone if I were you...good luck to you.

But isnt' that an exercise in futility if you don't plan on doing anything about it?

TR, my question is about how you intend to use this information.

You know enough now from reading here that women remember the broad details of their affairs. They know who the man was, whether they had penetrative sex, the conditions under which they met (e.g. during the working day, at hotels, on nights when the BH was away etc), and they can remember the general intensity of the affair. They remember whether they did it because they felt at the time they were finished with the marriage, or whether it started as "me time" when some man said something nice to them after what felt like years of neglect from their H.

As far as I can tell from following the discussions here, no FWW has said she cannot remember major details of the affair. A FWW might say that she chooses never to think about the affair, and if it took place a long time ago then details such as which restaurant they ate in on which date might well have become blurred and faded, but they can remember the affair. I would say that the fact that they can remember details of the affair is firmly established, wouldn't you?

And surely you can see that regular, long-term FWW posters like writer, who read the MB materials and attempt to use them in their own marriages, posting here for help, writing to Dr H for help and offering help to others (as opposed to those who come here and leave after arguing with and dismissing MB principles), practice to the best of their ability the radical honesty that recovery from an affair requires? The women here are genuinely trying to rebuild their marriages using MB. The women here are not the kind of women who continue, years after the affair ended and they claim to want to recover their marriages, to lie blatantly to their H's about forgetting whether they had penetrative sex, who reuse to reveal the name thus leaving the BH in hell wondering who on earth it was, and who tell the BH that he does not need to know anything very much at all and that they will leave if the question of ID comes up again.

So what now for you? How many times can you go round and round asking FWWs about the details they remember and the details they gave their BHs? What can a FWW say that will give you a basis on which finally to act in your own marriage?

My understanding is that it's very clear that your wife has fudged the truth and changed her story, including saying that she does not remember key facts and also that you don't need to know key facts, because she does not want to tell you what you want to know about the affair. That's the issue you face; not whether FWWs on MB remember and revealed or not, but your wife's behaviour.

See, my strategy, given the wonderful resource of Dr H, would be to write to him, phrasing the question like this:
_________________________________________
What would be Dr H's recommendation when a spouse/wife won't reveal the details of an affair? (You would need to explain, of course, that it happened when you and your wife were separated, and that fact has a lot to do with your being unable to find out any details for yourself.)

You have not threatened to divorce your wife if you discover unpleasant truths, and you have made it clear you wish to be married for life, so t is not this fear that keeps her from telling you the truth. Rather, she says that you have no need to know the details, or sometimes that she has forgotten important details, and she threatens that she will leave you if you ever ask for details again. You believe that she really will leave you if you ask again. For that reason you haven't raised the issue for xxx years.

When you did try to talk about it, you made it clear that you can and want to put aside resentment over the affair, for good. She knows that you are not looking for reasons to divorce her. You do not use resentment as a punishment, ever. Your wife says that she is happy in her marriage and wishes to stay married. Your kids are grown and you have no problems spending UA time together and are generally happy together, apart from, for you, the big hole in your knowledge of who OM was, how it ended and the fact that it did come to a complete end, that he is not someone that you are in unwitting contact with and that your wife is in complete NC (add anything else you need to know).

When a wife appears to want to stay married, and indeed appears to have been working at the marriage for many years and has not been angry, resentful or in any other way shown reluctance to be married to her H, what are a BH's choices when he is unable to rest easily until he knows?

You do not want to end the marriage over this because the marriage is otherwise good, and you do not want to separate until and unless she comes clean. Is separation and/or divorce the only leverage that a BH has, which means that if he is unwilling to use it he has to put up with the unhappy status quo? Is the only alternative to separation for the BH to train himself to let it go and if he can't let go, for him to stay unhappy?

Can Dr H suggest anything you can do to make your wife understand why you need to know, without provoking her to leave, or meeting with a flat-out "no"?
_______________________________

TR, I have great sympathy with what you have endured from your wife, and I understand the trap that you are in. You can leave her until she gives you what you need, but you do not want to leave her, and here is no certainty that she will confess if you do. Leaving her might well end your marriage, which is the last thing you seem to want, so what else can you do?

The answer is not to keep asking FWW here whether they can remember their affairs and whether they told their BH's everything; that doesn't help you to accomplish anything.

I am frequently surprised at the answers that Dr H has for seemingly impossible dilemmas. He has worked with so many couples for so any years that he has dealt with situations that we have no clue how to deal with ourselves.

I would urge you to write to him. How long can you go on and on and around and around like this? It's painful to watch, for me as BS. You need to ask the right question, and from where I am sitting that question is not about what the highly-motivated MB FWWs did for their Hs.

If it seems that 90% of WW's can remember 90% of the past I can tell her the odds are your claiming you can not remember is just you avoiding telling me and continuing damage control.

Yes, yes, yes.

Why would you leave this thing alone now?

I do not even have the OM's name.

I do not ask for specific details. I ask for their ability to remember details. In general terms 10%, 35% 80% whatever percent. Looking for quantity vs quality because there is no need for them to go into detail.

Knowing how well the WW can remember here gives me an indication of how well my wife remembers.

Okay, so now you know that most WW's would be able to remember at least the basic facts of the A, including the OM's name.

What do you intend to do with this information?

I only said if "I were you" , I would leave it alone. From reading your posts it seemed you were fearful your wife would leave you or otherwise end the marriage if you persisted in finding out the truth. You also answered yes to staying married thus my comment...

Me? Hell nor high water would stop me from wanting that dudes name! You deserve to know the truth.

SC and others have given great advice as well empathizing with you. I hate it for you brother but it seems like hitting this thing from all these different angles isn't helping you much? You may have to hit it head on...I would listen closely to SC's advice if you're not satisfied with the status quo. That or let it go...