Coming up on a year since D-Day 2. Thought I would use this space to share the journey / vent / ask questions / get support (incl. 2 X 4's as necessary.)
VENT: Recovery is a B-Itch!!!
We are enrolled in the online course. Working on eliminating DJ's, which had been our biggest LB on the abuse continuum. We have both had a big reduction in these, but I still struggle with trying to educate Taffy; assuming I know his emotions without his input; sharp-tongued responses when I feel threatened or ignored. I can actually feel myself disrespecting him in my mind. But I am better at holding my tongue now. Our goal is total elimination by September.
Then we can focus on EN-meeting.
I am having big trouble managing triggers, especially lately. I really feel like I am battling these all on my own. I can't discuss w/ Taffy, as that would be bringing up the A. And he says he is dealing with his own triggers... various reminders of the Dolly. So I really feel that I am out in the weeds here.
And Taffy does seem to insensitive to my triggers. For example, we recently had to make a trip to the city where the A took place. Taffy was in charge of booking the plane tickets. His were through his company, mine were on our points. He was unble to get us on the same flights, even flying on the same day. Net result, he spent a night in the A city, alone, before I got there. When I expressed my concerns, he said I was being unreasonable, and to just use my trigger-management techniques, like he does. My problem is that I feel this is a lack of support from Taffy, and my reaction is to shore up my inner walls, which is a form of withdrawal. I am left alone to deal with the trigger, AND I am more withdrawn.
Tomorrow is our 17-year wedding anniversary. Last year, Taffy was in the A-city, working, while I was at our new home, 2500 miles away. At that time, we were in false recovery. I REALLY wanted to spend our anniversary together, and suggested a way for Taffy to fly here, just for the night. The plan would involve much driving, planning and sacrifice on my part, but I felt it was important. Taffy said he thought it was too much sacrifice for me. I later learned he actually had a dirty weekend set up with the Dolly instead. Big ouch...
So this year, I am really triggering...but I can't talk to Taffy about it because that would be bringing up the A...
Bit of a dilemma...
At this point, Taffy's account in my LB$ hasn't moved in months... I am feeling discouraged, and he is frustrated.
So sorry catwit about your struggle. Have you thought about posting to Dr. Harley on the private forum?
I'm sure the night apart was a huge struggle and now you're coming up on the year anniversary.
Yes it's true you shouldn't bring up the affair. Dr. Harley states that if there is still resentment into recovery something hasn't been resolved.
Do you have a code phrase or word that tells Taffy you're struggling without bringing up the affair? For example, "I'm having a tough time today" and then he knows to give you a hug or whatever it is you need?
Has he been meeting your ENs?
Catwhit,
With the LB still hurting your relationship, it's not surprising that you would not yet be in love with your H. It sounds like you haven't started yet working on meeting each other's most important ENs, because you're working on eliminating the DJ's. So every time a DJ occurs, more love units are drained away, and very few love units are incoming.
Can you practice over and over to yourself to say, "It bothers me when...." when something about your H bothers you.
Do
And "How would you feel about...." when you would like your H's help with something.
The hard work is in the building of new habits.
I don't want to hand out 2X4's but that business of him being overnight in the city of A without you is a big problem. You and he should be spending every single night together. And this one night, in THAT particular city, was spent apart, resulting in a huge trigger for you. And for your H.
My H has to travel occasionally for business as well, and in order to avoid the problem of traveling separately, we ask the company to make the travel arrangements, and we then pay for ours up front- both his AND mine. This is sometimes a big personal financial hit that takes a while for reimbursement, but there simply is no other way we want to do it. We absolutely made it a rule that, regardless of the cost or inconvenience to me as the extra traveler, we would go together.
I would have had an incredibly hard time dealing with my H going to any city, much less the city of the A, on his own.
Are you getting in your 15 plus hours of UA time each week? Are they the most enjoyable hours of your week?
Hi Brainy;
Yes I have been using the Private Forum when I have a specific question for Dr. Harley. It is a tremendous resource.
Our accountability coach advised us that it is Dr. Harley's format to focus on ending LB's first, in order to patch the gaping holes in our love banks, so that when we meet EN's, the banks can fill without draining away. DJ's being our worst offence, thus our focus. So we haven't worked much on each other's specific EN's yet.
Taffy reminds me that not only is it his responsibility to become expert at delivering my EN's, but it is also my responsibility to coach him in how I want them met. I struggle with the line between educating him (DJ) and respectful requests. So I haven't done a great job of coaching him yet, with predictable results.
Today he told me he is frustrated that I haven't flipped over the romantic love threshold yet. He wonders if it will EVER happen, and doesn't want to be in this same place in 20 years. (Me, neither!!)
So, today, we are struggling a bit.
Even UA time has slipped. We used to get 25 to 30 hours weekly. Lately, we sometimes dip below 15, again with predictable results.
We live in a very rural area, which tests our creativity for UA dates. Last night we went to the local cinema, and it was closed for some reason. We just couldn't find anything else in town we wanted to do, from very limited selection, especially since we were date-dressed. So we often do our dates at home, not ideal, for certain. When we do go out, it is nearly impossible to avoid friends.
Tomorrow night's date is going to be an overnight on our sailboat, to watch the Perseid Meteor Shower from the cockpit...
Catwhit,
With the LB still hurting your relationship, it's not surprising that you would not yet be in love with your H. It sounds like you haven't started yet working on meeting each other's most important ENs, because you're working on eliminating the DJ's. So every time a DJ occurs, more love units are drained away, and very few love units are incoming.
Can you practice over and over to yourself to say, "It bothers me when...." when something about your H bothers you.
Do
And "How would you feel about...." when you would like your H's help with something.
The hard work is in the building of new habits.
I don't want to hand out 2X4's but that business of him being overnight in the city of A without you is a big problem. You and he should be spending every single night together. And this one night, in THAT particular city, was spent apart, resulting in a huge trigger for you. And for your H.
My H has to travel occasionally for business as well, and in order to avoid the problem of traveling separately, we ask the company to make the travel arrangements, and we then pay for ours up front- both his AND mine. This is sometimes a big personal financial hit that takes a while for reimbursement, but there simply is no other way we want to do it. We absolutely made it a rule that, regardless of the cost or inconvenience to me as the extra traveler, we would go together.
I would have had an incredibly hard time dealing with my H going to any city, much less the city of the A, on his own.
Are you getting in your 15 plus hours of UA time each week? Are they the most enjoyable hours of your week?
Thanks, LongWay...
Your post is really helpful for me. I will re-focus on practicing the "It bothers me when..." and "How would you feel about...?" phrases.
UA was at 25 - 30 hours. Lately it is more like 15-18, sometimes dipping below 15. I really notice the difference. We have to keep re-committing to being diligent. We are actually pretty good about planning the hours, but sometimes we are tired on the specific date time, or just retreat to our "corners" instead of interacting much. That's when we fall below the 15 hours. Only recently has Taffy been involved in keeping track, or scheduling.
Taffy was unconcerned about being away from me, overnight, in the A city. He says he never triggers any more, and suggested he thinks I should be over it now, too, since it has been nearly a year. To me, that just shows that he doesn't understand the depth of the injury to me. Or he is "rug-sweeping." However, I can't bring it up, so I am kinda stuck with it.
On the other hand, I DON'T want to dwell in the past...So I try to 1/ Change my focus, and 2/ make new positive memories associated with the trigger. And good practice for squelching my own LB's.
Recovery takes about two years, at the least, and that's with both partners on board.
I think I started to fall in love again within the first year, but the pain remained pretty fresh and raw for a while. And if a trigger occurred, it felt D-Day was just yesterday.
At two years, things were much better.
Recovery is individual and depends on how much there is to "get over," as how well each person eliminates the LBs and meets ENs, how much great UA time you and your H, and if POJA and PORH are part of the marriage.
Recovery takes about two years, at the least, and that's with both partners on board.
I think I started to fall in love again within the first year, but the pain remained pretty fresh and raw for a while. And if a trigger occurred, it felt D-Day was just yesterday.
At two years, things were much better.
Recovery is individual and depends on how much there is to "get over," as how well each person eliminates the LBs and meets ENs, how much great UA time you and your H, and if POJA and PORH are part of the marriage.
Long Way:
Thanks, again, for your post. The timeline, and your experience, are very encouraging to me. I will re-read your story.
For me, I think the False Recovery punched a hole in my ability to recover this time. Every time I start to feel closer toTaffy, my mind reminds me of the last time I thought we were recovering. So those feelings themselves are a trigger, in a way. However, you remind me of the (general) two year timeline... and that gives me hope. My verification is much more stringent nowadays, and Taffy is "on board" the bus, though I would say I still drive, for the most part.
No, I hadn't seen that one. Thanks, FTF!
Do you have a code phrase or word that tells Taffy you're struggling without bringing up the affair? For example, "I'm having a tough time today" and then he knows to give you a hug or whatever it is you need?
Great idea, Brainy. Don't have a code phrase right now, but will put one in place... Thanks!
Taffy was unconcerned about being away from me, overnight, in the A city. He says he never triggers any more, and suggested he thinks I should be over it now, too, since it has been nearly a year. To me, that just shows that he doesn't understand the depth of the injury to me. Or he is "rug-sweeping." However, I can't bring it up, so I am kinda stuck with it.
You can change this overnight things and visiting affair places through POJA. How on earth was he able to stay there at the first place when you both know about POJA? Did you agree to the idea? Why?
When you say yes to the idea that really bothers you, you are not using POJA. Your NO whipes this bad idea off the table.
I remember we were like 2+ yrs into recovery and we both came to the idea to visit the country where my affair took place, our "reasoning" was to claim the place back. Stupid-stupid idea. Luckily, we dropped it, because my H would have been hurt with triggers and I would feel very uncomfortable to go there again. No person is strong enough not to remember, and your H's talk about how he is not triggering anymore, is just not true, the place still reminds him of all that had happened.
For me, I think the False Recovery punched a hole in my ability to recover this time. Every time I start to feel closer toTaffy, my mind reminds me of the last time I thought we were recovering. So those feelings themselves are a trigger, in a way.
I could have written this myself! I completely understand your frame of mind. My FR was worse than the A itself....much worse.
Reading your comments reminds me of where I was about 2 months ago (and hope to keep that in the rearview mirror!). Although I still have moments in which the entire ordeal sweeps over me, at 1 year and 7mo's into R, we are seeing improvements.
One technique that has really helped me is consciously staying in the 'now'. What I mean is that I don't even like to talk about what happened a month ago, let alone 3 years ago. In fact, I have even shared this with my family. Typically, when someone brings up the past, I immediately change the subject.
By keeping my Eyes on Today and planning for things tomorrow, I am able to keep past memories coming to the front of my mind in check.
How much IC are you getting with your H? I notice a big difference in my ability to stay in 'today' when we can share thoughts, feelings, plans for the future and how we feel about each other.
Also, we have been ramping up or focus on becoming experts in each others EN's. This is also helping to direct us forward.
You can change this overnight things and visiting affair places through POJA. How on earth was he able to stay there at the first place when you both know about POJA? Did you agree to the idea? Why?
When you say yes to the idea that really bothers you, you are not using POJA. Your NO whipes this bad idea off the table.
This is just great advice. REALLY embracing the POJA has had amazing impact on our R.
Do you feel that you are both using it along with the PORH?
You can change this overnight things and visiting affair places through POJA. How on earth was he able to stay there at the first place when you both know about POJA? Did you agree to the idea? Why?
When you say yes to the idea that really bothers you, you are not using POJA. Your NO whipes this bad idea off the table.
I remember we were like 2+ yrs into recovery and we both came to the idea to visit the country where my affair took place, our "reasoning" was to claim the place back. Stupid-stupid idea. Luckily, we dropped it, because my H would have been hurt with triggers and I would feel very uncomfortable to go there again. No person is strong enough not to remember, and your H's talk about how he is not triggering anymore, is just not true, the place still reminds him of all that had happened.
Hi Mrs_Recon;
Taffy says he has very little memory of his A. Says it all seems like a bad dream now. On our wedding anniversary dinner date, he wanted to reminisce about past anniversaries, where we were at each one. I was aghast, because he didn't even recall that last year we were not together, because he had a hotel date w/ the Dolly instead. Said he really did not remember. This seems amazing to me, because it is seared in my memory.
But maybe, if he truly doesn't remember A details, he isn't triggered. Wish I was so lucky.
However, his lack of memory might be why he thinks I should be farther down recovery lane than I am. And why it is hard for him to fathom my triggers.
I agree that we SHOULD have POJA'd the different flight dates. I wasn't even aware of the situation until a day before departure, but also, it really didn't occur to me that it might be a trigger for me. My reaction escalated once I triggered.
For me, I think the False Recovery punched a hole in my ability to recover this time. Every time I start to feel closer toTaffy, my mind reminds me of the last time I thought we were recovering. So those feelings themselves are a trigger, in a way.
I could have written this myself! I completely understand your frame of mind. My FR was worse than the A itself....much worse.
Reading your comments reminds me of where I was about 2 months ago (and hope to keep that in the rearview mirror!). Although I still have moments in which the entire ordeal sweeps over me, at 1 year and 7mo's into R, we are seeing improvements.
One technique that has really helped me is consciously staying in the 'now'. What I mean is that I don't even like to talk about what happened a month ago, let alone 3 years ago. In fact, I have even shared this with my family. Typically, when someone brings up the past, I immediately change the subject.
By keeping my Eyes on Today and planning for things tomorrow, I am able to keep past memories coming to the front of my mind in check.
How much IC are you getting with your H? I notice a big difference in my ability to stay in 'today' when we can share thoughts, feelings, plans for the future and how we feel about each other.
Also, we have been ramping up or focus on becoming experts in each others EN's. This is also helping to direct us forward.
Thanks, 20Year;
I appreciate the advice from your perspective "further down the road".
Our IC is kinda shakey. It is one reason why our UA has fallen off; we just don't seem to have much to talk to each other about. We can easily spend hours together side-by-side, on our respective iPads. Nasty habit, but one we need to correct. I liked the recent post on ideas/suggestion for IC topics, and we will incorporate that.
We will be going over our EN questionnaires this weekend. Time to get more focused.
Question:
How do people here get in UA time when you have houseguests?
This summer/autumn has been full of visitors for us. I am the chief cook and bottle washer, with more heaped on me when we have visitors. Taffy works from home so disappears into the office often. When we don't have guests, we get our UA time in on week nights. But with guests, our UA really suffers. We can often get an hour in the hot tub each mornings, but that is about it.
Living in a remote area, UA time out of the house is next to impossible. If we go to one of the caf�s or the only restaurant in the local town, we won't be alone since we know many of our neighbours. In the summer, we can get out on our sailboat, if the weather is fair. Taffy likes moto riding, but that doesn't count as UA time. There are no gyms near by, so working out together is out. I love going hiking, and Taffy says he does too, but somehow we never get out if a hike is scheduled.
UA time is hard enough for us, without the added challenge of what to do when we have house guests.
Suggestions?
I think the obvious answer is don't have so many house guests if it interferes with getting you UA time in.
It sounds like you are making the mistake of scheduling UA time around all of the other things in your life instead of the other way around.
Can you send your guests on the hiking trails and other excursions for them to enjoy while you get some UA time?
You and your H could wash the dishes together while the guests are encouraged to take a walk or relax with the tv.
If you ride two-up with your H on the motorcycle, that is considered both RC and affection and can be classified as UA time. Dr. Harley says this is a very romantic activity to do together.
We don't really care to have house guests unless they are willing and able to get out of the house a bit on their own, leaving us to our happy devices now and then. When we MUST have them, we try to get to our bedroom earlier than usual and sneak in a glass of wine and some private time. Or we'll say we absolutely MUST get out for a walk. We walk really fast and hardly anyone can keep up.
You and H could linger a bit in bed, encouraging house guests to get breakfast on their own, if they're up earlier than you.
Since you have hiking in your area, you and your H could rise early and go out on your own together to get some UA time.
Finally, you could also simply state to most or all visitors, depending on who they are, that they can stay for some period of say 3 - 4 days, and leave several-day break between guests. And graciously enforce it.
I think the obvious answer is don't have so many house guests if it interferes with getting you UA time in.
It sounds like you are making the mistake of scheduling UA time around all of the other things in your life instead of the other way around.
Yup, FTF, you're right. However, I am not sure how to overcome this.
In fact, though we have a standard scheduling meeting on the books each week, if I don't police it, it doesn't happen. And since I dislike the police role, I avoid it. We have discussed changing the scheduling meeting, and, in fact, changed it a few times, we still rarely have it, but generally just catch up on the fly.
Taffy is very sensitive to feeling like he is "doing MB wrong", or not doing enough. So even my lighthearted cajoling attempts irk him. But the truth is, I often DO feel like he is doing it wrong, or insufficiently. Which, I can't express because that's a DJ.
We haven't gotten to the place yet where our UA is much fun. Not unpleasant, just not that fun. So it feels like a sacrifice to schedule it, especially when we could be doing more "necessary, productive" things.
Question:
How do people here get in UA time when you have houseguests?
We have a THREE DAY visit limit! That way we get in our UA time and don't tire of our company.
My suggestion would be to schedule your time FIRST and then schedule houseguest time.
Yup, FTF, you're right. However, I am not sure how to overcome this.
In fact, though we have a standard scheduling meeting on the books each week, if I don't police it, it doesn't happen. And since I dislike the police role, I avoid it. We have discussed changing the scheduling meeting, and, in fact, changed it a few times, we still rarely have it, but generally just catch up on the fly.
Well, that's not working is it?
The first thing you need is agreement to just spend the time together in the first place. Start with that. Sit down and agree that for the next X number of months, you are going to spend 20 hours per week of UA time together every week.
All you need is the agreement. You don't need him to agree that it's going to work or anything like that at all. All you need is the agreement to do it. It doesn't even need to be enthusiastic agreement! Let's face it, neither of you are going to be enthusiastic about it at first.
Once you have your agreement, then go off by yourself and come up with a generic schedule you are going to propose to use every week. All it has to have on it is the times.
For example:
- Monday______7:00 PM - 9:00 PM
- Tues________6:30 PM - 10:00 PM
- Wednesday___7:00 PM - 9:00 PM
- Thursday____6:30 PM - 10:00 PM
- Friday______7:00 PM - 9:00 PM
- Saturday____7:00 PM - 11:00 PM
- Sunday______1:00 PM - 5:00 PM
Tues, Thurs, Sat, and Sun are something out of the house. Monday, Wed, and Fri are something at home.
That's 20 hours right there with 15 of those out of the house. Adjust the times and days to whatever works for you, but make sure at least 15 of those hours are out of the house. Add in some SF time at the end of some of those dates and you are well into effective UA time territory.
Once you have a schedule, present it to him and let him make changes. This is where you can POJA the basic schedule. Maybe you will agree to different times, or different days. Once you can agree to a basic schedule, go to your calender and mark the time off for every week for the next few months.
Then, every week, the discussion about what to do is just limited to "What do you want to do for our Saturday date night?" "How about Thursday?"
Taffy is very sensitive to feeling like he is "doing MB wrong", or not doing enough. So even my lighthearted cajoling attempts irk him. But the truth is, I often DO feel like he is doing it wrong, or insufficiently. Which, I can't express because that's a DJ.
Forget all of that. Reminding him that he isn't doing it right or isn't enthusiastic enough about it isn't going to work anyway. Keep it simple. Make a schedule yourself and present it to him as a draft. Get his input on it and let him make changes to it.
We haven't gotten to the place yet where our UA is much fun. Not unpleasant, just not that fun. So it feels like a sacrifice to schedule it, especially when we could be doing more "necessary, productive" things.
Pleasant is good enough at the beginning. Don't get caught up in trying to make it perfect. First, start actually spending the time together, then look for ways to improve on it week to week.
We haven't had houseguests since starting Marriage Builders, other than a couple times my brother spent one night.
Before Marriage Builders in another city my in-laws would sometimes come to visit, but then usually only for 2-3 days, and usually one of those nights they would babysit!
Taffy is very sensitive to feeling like he is "doing MB wrong", or not doing enough. So even my lighthearted cajoling attempts irk him. But the truth is, I often DO feel like he is doing it wrong, or insufficiently. Which, I can't express because that's a DJ.
Giving him a complaint is NOT a DJ unless you are disrespectful. He has to hear your complaints if he is to know how to improve his behavior. A complaint is like a getting an overdraft notice from the bank. It is not pleasant to get it, but the alternative is WORSE. If you don't get overdraft notices, then you would bounce checks all over town and be charged enormous fees!
We haven't gotten to the place yet where our UA is much fun. Not unpleasant, just not that fun. So it feels like a sacrifice to schedule it, especially when we could be doing more "necessary, productive" things.
Just keep going at it until it is the most pleasant part of your day. And be sure and schedule it out of the house on fun dates where you look nice at a time where you have the most energy.
There is nothing more "necessary" or productive than your UA time!
What are you doing in your UA time?
[
In fact, though we have a standard scheduling meeting on the books each week, if I don't police it, it doesn't happen. And since I dislike the police role, I avoid it. We have discussed changing the scheduling meeting, and, in fact, changed it a few times, we still rarely have it, but generally just catch up on the fly.
UA time that is not scheduled is not likely to be kept. It is too easy to put it off when its not scheduled.
Can you send your guests on the hiking trails and other excursions for them to enjoy while you get some UA time?
You and your H could wash the dishes together while the guests are encouraged to take a walk or relax with the tv.
If you ride two-up with your H on the motorcycle, that is considered both RC and affection and can be classified as UA time. Dr. Harley says this is a very romantic activity to do together.
We don't really care to have house guests unless they are willing and able to get out of the house a bit on their own, leaving us to our happy devices now and then. When we MUST have them, we try to get to our bedroom earlier than usual and sneak in a glass of wine and some private time. Or we'll say we absolutely MUST get out for a walk. We walk really fast and hardly anyone can keep up.
You and H could linger a bit in bed, encouraging house guests to get breakfast on their own, if they're up earlier than you.
Since you have hiking in your area, you and your H could rise early and go out on your own together to get some UA time.
Finally, you could also simply state to most or all visitors, depending on who they are, that they can stay for some period of say 3 - 4 days, and leave several-day break between guests. And graciously enforce it.
Thanks, Long Way.
Interestingly, having guests and entertaining is one of the few things Taffy and I are both enthusiastic about doing together.
I have tried the hiking/walking thing,and Taffy says he is enthusiastic, yet it somehow rarely happens, even when it is scheduled. I caught myself the other day making plans to get out on the trails myself but curbed that as IB (plus it would be way too enjoyable.)
I don't LOVE moto-ing, but will do it because it makes Taffy very happy. But I really dislike riding on the back of his. I tend to fall asleep, hardly romantic RA or UA time. And he isn't at all keen about being my passenger. Any way, with both of us riding our own bikes, it counts as RC, but not UA. And it is definitely Taffy's fave time of the week.
We don't have TV, and our guests say they are here to visit with us, so scooting them out is not that easy. However, we only have a few more guests scheduled over the next few months, so I am hopeful we can get back on track UA-wise, POJA some RA's we both enjoy, and will both do.
[
Interestingly, having guests and entertaining is one of the few things Taffy and I are both enthusiastic about doing together.
BUT, it has to be done AFTER your UA time is met. Having guests should be done in a way that complements your marriage, not harms it. Being around other people is fun, but it does very little for your marriage and is not a replacement for UA time.
I found this post over on the weekend forum:
"Our program for recovery only works when it's followed. The 15 hours of undivided attention we recommend is an essential part of the program because it provides the opportunity to meet emotional needs that cannot be met any other way. There are lots of excuses for failing to follow that aspect of our program, but in the end, failure to follow it results in a failed recovery.
If we saw that both of you were recovering well, I'd say that you are one of the very rare exceptions to the need to spend 15 hours a week together. But, since you are not recovering well, we can only conclude that your failure to spend enough time together, and make good use of that time meeting each other's emotional needs, is the culprit."
Well, that's not working is it?
The first thing you need is agreement to just spend the time together in the first place. Start with that. Sit down and agree that for the next X number of months, you are going to spend 20 hours per week of UA time together every week.
All you need is the agreement. You don't need him to agree that it's going to work or anything like that at all. All you need is the agreement to do it. It doesn't even need to be enthusiastic agreement! Let's face it, neither of you are going to be enthusiastic about it at first.
Once you have your agreement, then go off by yourself and come up with a generic schedule you are going to propose to use every week. All it has to have on it is the times.
For example:
- Monday______7:00 PM - 9:00 PM
- Tues________6:30 PM - 10:00 PM
- Wednesday___7:00 PM - 9:00 PM
- Thursday____6:30 PM - 10:00 PM
- Friday______7:00 PM - 9:00 PM
- Saturday____7:00 PM - 11:00 PM
- Sunday______1:00 PM - 5:00 PM
Tues, Thurs, Sat, and Sun are something out of the house. Monday, Wed, and Fri are something at home.
That's 20 hours right there with 15 of those out of the house. Adjust the times and days to whatever works for you, but make sure at least 15 of those hours are out of the house. Add in some SF time at the end of some of those dates and you are well into effective UA time territory.
Once you have a schedule, present it to him and let him make changes. This is where you can POJA the basic schedule. Maybe you will agree to different times, or different days. Once you can agree to a basic schedule, go to your calender and mark the time off for every week for the next few months.
Then, every week, the discussion about what to do is just limited to "What do you want to do for our Saturday date night?" "How about Thursday?"
Don't get caught up in trying to make it perfect. First, start actually spending the time together, then look for ways to improve on it week to week.
Great advice, FtF. Thanks. I like the idea of the template schedule to "hang" our weekly UA time plan on. We can then adjust the time/days weekly as needed.
We haven't had houseguests since starting Marriage Builders, other than a couple times my brother spent one night.
Before Marriage Builders in another city my in-laws would sometimes come to visit, but then usually only for 2-3 days, and usually one of those nights they would babysit!
So you just told friends and family no visitors? Wow, that would be a big change for us!!
UA time that is not scheduled is not likely to be kept. It is too easy to put it off when its not scheduled.
True, ML. And we are a good example of this.
Just after D-day, and for several months, we got tons of UA time. But lately... Not so much. Often not even the 15, let alone the 20 we really SHOULD be getting.
Taffy is very sensitive to feeling like he is "doing MB wrong", or not doing enough. So even my lighthearted cajoling attempts irk him. But the truth is, I often DO feel like he is doing it wrong, or insufficiently. Which, I can't express because that's a DJ.
Giving him a complaint is NOT a DJ unless you are disrespectful. He has to hear your complaints if he is to know how to improve his behavior. A complaint is like a getting an overdraft notice from the bank. It is not pleasant to get it, but the alternative is WORSE. If you don't get overdraft notices, then you would bounce checks all over town and be charged enormous fees!
Yes, ML. But Taffy doesn't see it that way. So I am trying hard to use the "I'd love it if..." phrase. And still, he feels it is a criticism, not a complaint.
Maybe I need to give him more admiration for the changes he HAS made...
We haven't gotten to the place yet where our UA is much fun. Not unpleasant, just not that fun. So it feels like a sacrifice to schedule it, especially when we could be doing more "necessary, productive" things.
Just keep going at it until it is the most pleasant part of your day. And be sure and schedule it out of the house on fun dates where you look nice at a time where you have the most energy.
There is nothing more "necessary" or productive than your UA time!
What are you doing in your UA time?
Out-of-the-house UA is challenging, unless we are travelling together. (All week next week), so we generally do things around home that we both enjoy, for our RC component. Wine making, sausage making, gardening, Reno projects., etc. And we try to start each weekday with a half hour in the hot tub.
We may need to re-visit activities to do together that are actually fun...
[
Interestingly, having guests and entertaining is one of the few things Taffy and I are both enthusiastic about doing together.
BUT, it has to be done AFTER your UA time is met. Having guests should be done in a way that complements your marriage, not harms it. Being around other people is fun, but it does very little for your marriage and is not a replacement for UA time.
I guess is this is what it is all coming down to.... Putting our marriage FIRST... Which, often, it doesn't feel like it.
I found this post over on the weekend forum:
"Our program for recovery only works when it's followed. The 15 hours of undivided attention we recommend is an essential part of the program because it provides the opportunity to meet emotional needs that cannot be met any other way. There are lots of excuses for failing to follow that aspect of our program, but in the end, failure to follow it results in a failed recovery.
If we saw that both of you were recovering well, I'd say that you are one of the very rare exceptions to the need to spend 15 hours a week together. But, since you are not recovering well, we can only conclude that your failure to spend enough time together, and make good use of that time meeting each other's emotional needs, is the culprit."
Food for thought, ML. Because I DON'T feel like we are recovering well. Taffy says he thinks we are doing fine, but I suspect that is because he feels fine himself. He says he is back in love w/ me again. Wish I could say the same....and he is frustrated it isn't happening for me yet...
I found this post over on the weekend forum:
"Our program for recovery only works when it's followed. The 15 hours of undivided attention we recommend is an essential part of the program because it provides the opportunity to meet emotional needs that cannot be met any other way. There are lots of excuses for failing to follow that aspect of our program, but in the end, failure to follow it results in a failed recovery.
If we saw that both of you were recovering well, I'd say that you are one of the very rare exceptions to the need to spend 15 hours a week together. But, since you are not recovering well, we can only conclude that your failure to spend enough time together, and make good use of that time meeting each other's emotional needs, is the culprit."
Food for thought, ML. Because I DON'T feel like we are recovering well. Taffy says he thinks we are doing fine, but I suspect that is because he feels fine himself. He says he is back in love w/ me again. Wish I could say the same....and he is frustrated it isn't happening for me yet...
You are a woman. You need that time together! If there is one thing I could get through to your H that would be it.
Men and women are different in that regard in general. It's a fact of life.
Yes, ML. But Taffy doesn't see it that way. So I am trying hard to use the "I'd love it if..." phrase. And still, he feels it is a criticism, not a complaint.
Maybe I need to give him more admiration for the changes he HAS made...
That's fine if he sees it that way, you can't stop doing it. You MUST continue to give him your complaints so he has an opportunity to improve. You might want to make a post to Dr Harley and have Dr H explain it to him. But you can't stop complaining just because he doesn't like it.
[
Out-of-the-house UA is challenging, unless we are travelling together. (All week next week), so we generally do things around home that we both enjoy, for our RC component. Wine making, sausage making, gardening, Reno projects., etc. And we try to start each weekday with a half hour in the hot tub.
That is probably why you are not making progress. When you are at home, it is WAY TOO EASY to find anything you enjoy doing MORE. In the beginning, you would probably enjoy doing the laundry more! At home UA time is very poor quality and is not effective. It should be the LEAST of your UA time and only when you have fallen in love again.
We may need to re-visit activities to do together that are actually fun...
catwhit, I mean this kindly, but I don't think you and your H are taking this very seriously. You put everything else BEFORE your UA time and when you do do it is little more than a pencil whipping exercise where you just call hanging out at home "undivided attention time."
If you want things to change, you are going to have to CHNAGE. Continuing to just stay home and count your usual home activities as UA time is not going to get you anywhere.
Dr Harley addresses home UA time versus going out on this radio clip:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=159068&Number=2757785#Post2757785
Out-of-the-house UA is challenging, unless we are travelling together. (All week next week), so we generally do things around home that we both enjoy, for our RC component. Wine making, sausage making, gardening, Reno projects., etc. And we try to start each weekday with a half hour in the hot tub.
Yet earlier on this thread you said:
We haven't gotten to the place yet where our UA is much fun. Not unpleasant, just not that fun. So it feels like a sacrifice to schedule it, especially when we could be doing more "necessary, productive" things.
You are uniquely positioned where you can sandwich your dates with a long drive since you live far from any town. For example, a perfect date would be to DRIVE to a restaurant and hour or hour and a half away. The drive there and back is fantastic UA time!
From what I can tell from reading your thread, you are really getting NO UA time. A half an hour in hot tub is not consistent or effective UA time. It needs to be in 2 to 3 hours blocks.
When I apply the fifteen-hour principle to marriages, I usually recommend that the time be evenly distributed throughout the week, two to three hours each day. When time must be bunched up -- all hours only on the weekend -- good results are not as predictable. Spouses need to be emotionally reconnected almost on a daily basis to meet each other's most important emotional needs.
[
Food for thought, ML. Because I DON'T feel like we are recovering well. Taffy says he thinks we are doing fine, but I suspect that is because he feels fine himself. He says he is back in love w/ me again. Wish I could say the same....and he is frustrated it isn't happening for me yet...
The program doesn't work without the POUA. If he were in love, I seriously doubt he would be this resistant to the UA time. He sure doesn't hit me as a guy who is in love. He views it as a "sacrifice" because he enjoys almost everything more than being with you.
Again, I am sorry to be so forthright, but you are such a dear person, catwhit, and I hate to see you needlessly struggle. If you will strictly follow this program for a period of time, your husband will be ANXIOUS about spending time with you. He will not view it a sacrifice, but as something he can't get enough of.
Out-of-the-house UA is challenging, unless we are travelling together. (All week next week), so we generally do things around home that we both enjoy, for our RC component. Wine making, sausage making, gardening, Reno projects., etc. And we try to start each weekday with a half hour in the hot tub.
Yet earlier on this thread you said:
We haven't gotten to the place yet where our UA is much fun. Not unpleasant, just not that fun. So it feels like a sacrifice to schedule it, especially when we could be doing more "necessary, productive" things.
You are uniquely positioned where you can sandwich your dates with a long drive since you live far from any town. For example, a perfect date would be to DRIVE to a restaurant and hour or hour and a half away. The drive there and back is fantastic UA time!
From what I can tell from reading your thread, you are really getting NO UA time. A half an hour in hot tub is not consistent or effective UA time. It needs to be in 2 to 3 hours blocks.
When I apply the fifteen-hour principle to marriages, I usually recommend that the time be evenly distributed throughout the week, two to three hours each day. When time must be bunched up -- all hours only on the weekend -- good results are not as predictable. Spouses need to be emotionally reconnected almost on a daily basis to meet each other's most important emotional needs.
Thanks, ML... We are spending the weekend together re-assessing and re-committing to UA time.
[
Food for thought, ML. Because I DON'T feel like we are recovering well. Taffy says he thinks we are doing fine, but I suspect that is because he feels fine himself. He says he is back in love w/ me again. Wish I could say the same....and he is frustrated it isn't happening for me yet...
The program doesn't work without the POUA. If he were in love, I seriously doubt he would be this resistant to the UA time. He sure doesn't hit me as a guy who is in love. He views it as a "sacrifice" because he enjoys almost everything more than being with you.
Again, I am sorry to be so forthright, but you are such a dear person, catwhit, and I hate to see you needlessly struggle. If you will strictly follow this program for a period of time, your husband will be ANXIOUS about spending time with you. He will not view it a sacrifice, but as something he can't get enough of.
Actually, I
[/i] appreciate[i] the forthright-ness, ML. I am not here to be a lily-dipper.
Had the chat today with Taffy about complaints vs. criticism. I think he gets the concept... And also that I welcome his complaints, too...
And yes, I also suspect he is really not really in love with me. But he say he is, and I don't want to DJ him about that. Maybe he forgets the overwhelming feeling of being n love, or doesn't think it is achievable in our many-years-married state.
Dr. Harley says I should phrase my complaints, " if you were in love with me, I would expect you to behave like this... (Specific behaviour). I need to be better at this conversation.
catwit!!!
catwit!!!
Thanks, Brainy. I had a lovely day...
Taffy and I are heading off on a 2-week holiday to Colombia. This will be the first holiday since D-Days 1, where we will have time to completely focus on each other. No colleagues, no family, no friends. No business, no household tasks, no community commitments.
I am hoping that the resulting UA time will vault Taffy's account in my LB$ over the romantic love threshold. He has expressed quite a bit of frustration that it is taking this long (14 months past D-Day 2 at present.) Should make it MUCH easier for us to get in our UA time once we're home, too.
To that end, I asked Dr. Harley on the private forum, about how much UA time was reasonable to schedule for this holiday. His answer was illuminating, as usual. I will try to post it here, if I can figure out how to do that.
I didn't know this was your show or I would've posted it sooner.
Radio Clip of catwit and Taffy's Show Segment #2 Segment #3 Segment #4
Thanks, Brainy. You are a gem.
Thanks, Brainy. You are a gem.
Thanks and you're welcome, my friend.
A while back there was a post that listed great topics for Intimate Conversation. I can't locate it now, and I would like to use it for Taffy and me. Does anyone recall it, or have a link to it?
Thanks!!
I know what post you are talking about but I couldn't find it. I'll look again because I'm pretty sure I referred someone to it awhile ago! Lol
here is one that LWFH originally posted. I know that there are others, but I can't locate either.
Sometimes H and I need a little jump start in our conversation. These questions are part of a noncompetitive game we used to play with children just to get some talk going. The game came with very serious questions and religious questions as well, but they are in storage, so we only have these light-hearted ones, which work perfectly for what we want.
We have them printed out and pull it out every so often. We find a question and then we each answer it.
What do you like to daydream about?
When you are alone and no one can see you or hear you, what do you like to do?
Say something about TV.
Finish the sentence: "The best thing about today is�."
If you could change your age, what age would you rather be?
If you could live anyplace in the world, where would it be?
Tell about a time when you felt proud of yourself.
Where would you like to go on vacation if you could go anyplace in the world?
What do you like to do in your spare time?
Tell about a funny experience.
What is something you can do well?
If you had to move and could take only three things with you, what would you take?
What is your favorite song?
What kind of TV commercial would you like to make?
What kind of trophy would you like to win?
Talk about "goose bumps."
How do you look when you get angry?
What does America mean to you?
If you were a doctor, what ailment would you like to cure?
Name two famous people you would like to have for parents.
What TV or movie star would you like to invite to your birthday party?
Say something about policemen.
Share three things for which you are thankful.
Talk about one of your bad habits.
Describe your best friend.
If someone could give you anything in the world for your birthday, what would you like it to be?
What kind of people are the luckiest people in the world?
What do you like to do when you are alone?
What is your favorite party game?
What color do you think of when you think of happiness?
What kind of job do you want to have in 20 years?
What kind of store would you like to own and operate?
If you could take only 3 people with you on a trip around the world, whom would you take?
What would you do if you wanted to be a friend to someone who could not speak English?
Say something about love.
What would you like to do to become famous?
How would you change the world to make it better if you had enough power?
Say something about ghosts.
Talk about birthdays.
If you became president of the United States, what two things would you do?
If you could have been someone in history, whom would you have been?
Describe a good neighbor.
If someone were to write a book about you, what do you think they would call it?
If you received $5000 as a gift, how would you spend it?
Describe a good sport.
Say something about jokes.
Describe the ideal father.
If you could become invisible, where would you like to go?
What would you do if you had a "magic wand?"
If you were lost in the woods and it got dark, what would you do?
What really turns you off?
What is your favorite sport and why do you like it?
What would you do if you found $1000 in a vacant lot?
In what ways do you act like a child?
How would you describe yourself to someone who does not know you?
What part of a big parade would you like to be?
What is one of your hobbies?
What is your favorite room in your house? Why?
Describe the ideal mother.
What is your favorite food?
Talk about a time when you were very irritated.
Tell about something beautiful.
Tell what makes a happy family.
Thanks, RQ and BlindSighted!
How was your vacation to Colombia? Did it kickstart your love banks as you had hoped?
Hi Kerala;
Had a GREAT vacation. Fun and flirtatious. And, I even had a glimmer of a romantic feeling for Taffy at one point.
Then we got home, and a few things went sideways. A week after getting home, we were heading to California for 10 days for Christmas with friends. Literally the minute before we got into the car, Taffy's back spasmed, and he spent the full 10 days in pain, then on prescription pain killers...
We got home from that, spent another week catching up at home, and then Taffy went into hospital for surgery. For the past two weeks, he's been home in bed, high on narcotics. So, UA time went to ZERO. Down went the love banks...
Now I have accompanied him to Denver for a 10-day business trip. This always feels like a sacrifice for me, because I have SO MUCH to get done at home, not in a hotel room.
We have scheduled 20 hours UA for this week. This will be a challenge to maintain, because we have some very good friends here who will want us to spend a lot of time with them (after Taffy's long work hours.) They don't really understand about the UA time, and are already pouting that we don't spend as much time with them as we used to. They know about the A's, but think I should have "gotten over it" by now. So, another test...
I would say our time together is "pleasant". Not wonderful, not that much fun. But pleasant. I think it is hard for Taffy to commit to even 15 hours of UA time, when it is just "pleasant". (He'd really rather be wrenching on his motos in the shop.) And then I feel guilty, griping about my cushy life.
But, I am hoping more UA time will fill the bill...Now if it could just be really FUN...
Update:
Wednesday will be two years since D-Day 1. Taffy and I are away from home at a conference for him. He is taking the day off on Wednesday, (his birthday), to spend it with me.
I am still stunned to see that when he told me this, I had no recollection that it was D-Day anniversary. None. Not even when he said he was wanting to just take care of me that day. Two years ago, I NEVER would have thought that I would be free from triggering so early. Of course, this is not to say I have forgotten about the A. But it no longer runs my life.
My message to others in recovery: The pain will recede, IF you follow the MB plan to the letter. No fudging, no shortcuts, no "but our situation is different..." s...
We are working our way through the online program, which we started 11.5 months ago. So recovery is not complete. I am not over the romantic love threshold yet, and it is a challenge for Taffy to be patient with me about this. But I say the program is the best chance we have for a wonderful, loving marriage.
It will get better.
Thanks for sharing, friend.
Always good to hear from you, Brainy....
I am still stunned to see that when he told me this, I had no recollection that it was D-Day anniversary. None. Not even when he said he was wanting to just take care of me that day. Two years ago, I NEVER would have thought that I would be free from triggering so early. Of course, this is not to say I have forgotten about the A. But it no longer runs my life.
Wonderful to read this catwhit! It's an inspiration to read that life will someday return to a place where the A doesn't define us. I thank you for sharing your success with us. CONGRATS to you and Taffy!!
Hi Cat! I'm at 2 years past NC myself and also find that the pain is receding, (though I had one doozy of a nightmare last night!) Triggers are easier to deal with and some dates are not as important anymore.
Glad to hear that you two are moving forward.
As far as your romantic love threshold, do you think that you are in a self-protection mode and have put up an emotional wall? I wonder about this for myself and have thought of writing Dr Harley about it.
Hi Cat! I'm at 2 years past NC myself and also find that the pain is receding, (though I had one doozy of a nightmare last night!) Triggers are easier to deal with and some dates are not as important anymore.
Glad to hear that you two are moving forward.
As far as your romantic love threshold, do you think that you are in a self-protection mode and have put up an emotional wall? I wonder about this for myself and have thought of writing Dr Harley about it.
Hi RQ!
I also wondered about the possibility of self-protection. It seemed strange to me that I really had not progressed over the threshold even once in nearly 2 years.
But then, our actual NC day is just over a year ago now (the Dolly would try to contact Taffy every few months.)
And, because we had a 5-month FR, which REALLY eroded my trust of Taffy's new behaviours once he was out of the fog, I gave myself permission to take a little longer in the healing process.
I emailed Dr. Harley several months back, and he said to keep working on the $LB$ deposits and we would eventually get there. (The thread is under the heading "Desperate to Connect" on the private forum.)
In truth, we took a long time in working on eliminating LB's in the online program. It was necessary as we had some long-ingrained bad habits (DJ's for me, IB for Taffy.) However, now we are on the EN-meeting lessons, so I have faith that is the necessary ingredient for me. My task is to keep giving Taffy guidance to meeting my EN's while continuing to meet his.
I'm so pleased that you are finding the pain lessening. (Except for that nightmare... ouch!)
Hopefully, your new location and Kiss's new job will also remove some of the triggers.
RQ: Good section on today's radio show (March 18) with a wife who is not yet over the romantic love threshold...
Update:
I suspected Taffy had been viewing porn, and asked him when the last time he'd viewed was. He said it was over a year ago, in accordance with his EP's.
Further snooping revealed that, in fact, he had picked up the habit again, viewing regularly, every few days, for the past month.
I confronted him; he did not deny it. He promised to stop immediately and for ever. I said it would now be his responsibility to prove to me each and every day that he is no longer viewing, by showing me the browser histories on his various devices daily. Any day where he fails to do this is a violation of his promise to me, and I won't stay in the marriage under that circumstance. Any erasure of browser history would be considered a violation, and I won't stay in the marriage.
He has agreed to quit porn, and so far, has been "clean". I understand he may have a difficult time with recovery from this habit, though.
I have written new EP's, which I am about to present to him. One will be that he post to the forum at least every second day. I believe he can get some help here as he goes through this. He has been a reluctant poster at best until now, and I don't feel this to be punitive, but instead provide him with some support.
We were working with SH, and he worked with Taffy to produce what SH called a "Weakness Protection Plan", wherein Taffy listed changes he would make/commit to in order to protect our marriage from his areas of weakness. Taffy included no viewing porn in his WPP, and that he would not compare me to other women. In my mind, the consequences were implied, but not stated.
In my sessions with SH, I asked when I should present Taffy w/ my list of EP's, and he said that the WPP would cover that.
In hindsight, I would not do this again; I would give Taffy my EP's list, which would be non-negotiable, and have consequences.
And that is what I will do this time.
This time, consequence of violation of EP's will be that I will not stay in the marriage.
Good for you.
Make sure you close off any loopholes and maintain your personal/marital boundaries.
LTL
Gave Taffy the new EP's last night.
He agrees to comply.
Gave Taffy the new EP's last night.
He agrees to comply.
How's it going?
Gave Taffy the new EP's last night.
He agrees to comply.
How's it going?
Jury's still out. He procrastinates on doing the EP's that are uncomfortable for him.
For example, in regards to posting on the open forum, he says he can't think of what to say.
He has yet to make an appointment for his STD and t-testing. He says he cannot think what to say to his doctor as to why he needs these tests.
This morning I reiterated to him that I am looking at his ACTIONS, not his words (which are loving affirmations.)
I'm so sorry catwit. He understands the repercussions of what will happen, correct?
Are you ready for that?
Just back from a trip to UK to see MIL who is failing fast. LOTS of revelations; so many of Taffy's family are/were wayward. Already knew about his father, who left his mum and married OW. Didn't know MIL had an ongoing A with a married OM, which lasted for YEARS, and really only petered out due to her dementia. In fact, Taffy's yongest sister is likely OM's child.
Also learned Taffy's brother had an A with a co-worker a few years back, and that their marriage hasn't recovered. He actually asked for advice, knowing our sitch, and we sent him MB books.
Big shock for Taffy to see that he grew up in an atmosphere of waywardness. (Compared to my family, where I am not aware of any incidences of waywardness.)
I know it isn't genetic, but waywardness seems to follow family lines. Maybe because of a permissive attitude, and therefore sloppy boundaries?
Lots of triggers; we are both glad to get out of there!
amazing to have such revelations after all of this time. It is good to read that you and Taffy are now having a positive influence on his family, great job sending the brother MB books!
amazing to have such revelations after all of this time. It is good to read that you and Taffy are now having a positive influence on his family, great job sending the brother MB books!
Thanks, BlindSighted... Yes, it was shocking for me to see how widespread affairs are. I have heard Dr. Harley say 60% of marriages are affected (infected?), but this brings it home.
Additionally, none of those marriages recovered. And today they are all either ended in divorce or are very unhappy.