Here is a quick summary of my story.
BS, me 35 years
WH, 34 years
married for 9 years
tree kids: D6, D4, S4mos
WH meet OW at college. He was at vet school. OW is my student (
this is the link for that part) .
We are now in recovery. I do have some questions
I see OW everyday at campus. I can not handle the stress anymore. I feel anxious of seeing her. After exposure she lied to everyone saying that it was not true. WH has not been back to school ever since. So everytime I walk into her and her friends I can feel their eyes on me, talking.
At home we are getting better, but just coming to campus is too much for me and I have no strenght after a day of work to go home and be the loving wife WH needs to have. Is like re-living D-day every day.
I've read some of you are in similar situations, how do you handle seeing the OP, even if WH is not present?
There is no way in heck that I could handle seeing the OW on a daily basis and not rip her throat out.
That being said, it doesn't seem that she will leave the school. The saying goes that you can only control you. You will have to make changes in YOUR life to avoid her. It sucks as we already give up so much being betrayed but you need to find a way to protect you and your marriage.
Can you teach at a different campus through the school? It may be that you will have to leave that school and teach somewhere else. I'm sorry.
No Contact for life goes for both spouses. That means not only does your husband never see or contact that OW again but you should also never see or contact her. Dr. Harley even advises betrayed spouses not to google OW/OM name, look them up in FB, or any other way to get a glimpse once recovery has begun.
Seeing her will always serve as a painful reminder of what she and your H did to you.
How long will she be at the school? Can you work in another department? Take a sabbatical? Work in another school a long distance away?
What about taking a temporary medical leave of absence?
Would that affect your employment status?
LTL
Unless I look for another job, which I find very hard, I will be seing her for five more years.
I'm not sure I can find another job soon. I work at a college and teaching positions are so hard to find. There is no other campus where I can teach.
I just came back from maternity leave.I have been thinking of doing a postdoc, but it might take me about a year to materialize it.
Hi it's me again. I have been reading other trheads and got some insight but I would like to get some feedback.
Just a quick summary of what had happened. WH is at home, he droped out of shcool. He is taking care of the house now. He's never been a happy SAHD, he's done it but hever been confortable with that. He is looking for a job.
We've done the EN's questionarie, we did his part, and he hasn't asked to do mine. His excuse, is that it's in english and he can't read it.
We visited the priest.
We have spent UA time, but it has not worked so great. For instance we started chatting about my work, and it triggered the talk he had with OW about how we only talk about my work.
We went to the museum last friday with the girls. I disappeared for about an hour, he didn't batted an eye.
Last night we were talking about how the A started and he told me about how OW asked him for a hug. He said that was the start, and I replied, well you liked her from before. He laughed.
To me it looks he is still in the fog, I asked him what he tought of her, he said it was a nice friendship,but that was all. He said this about 10 days ago.
So to me it looks like we need to move into protection phase, and finish it. So far this is what he has done.
-Went to confession
-Talked to the priest
-Change his cell phone number
-Done his EM's questionarie
-Quit using FB
I'm writting my letter right now, and this is what I would like for him to do in addition to the above.
- No contact letter. He has agreed to it, but has not written the letter
- Give me access to his cell phone. I can usually see his cell phone, but we haven said it outloud.
-Say sorry to my mom, his mom, my sisters, his sisters. Talk to my D6 and write a letter to my other two kids (D4, S4mos). All of these with me present.
-Give me a written recovery plan
-Find my EN's and work on them
-STD test
-Go over the A with me, and give me all the details- As far as I can tell he can still remember all the details.
Do you think this would be enoguh or shall I move into Plan B (I did exposure and he left for two days, but it wasnt plan B for real).
Forgot to say, I'm teaching at a different buidling for now.
Alada, Melodylane posted this in the SAA section but I'm re-posting it for you here:
From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67
The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.
These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.
Checklist for How Affairs Should End
_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.
_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.
_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.
_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:
_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).
_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).
_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).
_____Spend leisure time together.
_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.
_____Avoid overnight separation.
_____Allow technical accountability.
_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.
I would suggest that these get done as soon as possible so that you can move on to marital recovery. It sounds like your WH is going through withdrawal from his AP. This may take a few weeks and DR Harley talks about it in Surviving an Affair. Do you have that book? If not, I highly recommend you get it.
I'm glad you were able to change buildings. Is that do-able for you for now?
Checklist for How Affairs Should End
_x____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.
_x____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.
_x____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.
__x___The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:
__x___Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).
__x___Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).
_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).
__x___Spend leisure time together.
_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.
__x___Avoid overnight separation.
_____Allow technical accountability.
__x___ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.
Yesterday we had a long talk, he wrote the NC and agreed to no contact at all. He gave me all the deatils of the A. And we went over EP based on all the deatils he gave me. For instance, he said the spart started with a hug,well one of the EP is never ever hug another woman.
In regards to the ones we are missing, he does make money, and did not spend money with OW. The A took place at school. He didn't change jobs but drop out of school.
I think we had a great session last night.
I don't understand what
Allow technical accountability.
means.
I don't understand what
Allow technical accountability.
means.
That would refer to GPS tracker, spyware on phone, keylogger on PC, etc
Mmm, don't think any of that is available on my country. I have googled the spyware but it only works with certain companies.
However, he is not using the car anymore, he is a SAHD now, and has agreed to exchange cellphones with me, whenever I feel like.
wH talked to D6 last night, before that D6 asked me if we were divorcing. I told her no, and called wH to come talk to her. It was ver emotive, D6 cried and hugged his daddy.
It definetely helped wH realize how bad his judgement was.
Last night he confessed one more lie. Initially he have told me that he sent her a last msj asking her not to contact him anymore. It turns out it was a happy birthday msj.
I asked him to leave the house, don't know if that was correct, what do you think? Should I be in plan B now?
Did he change his cell number before or after that last message? Was that message sent after the NC letter? If this is trickle truth from before recovery, you can have him take a polygraph to see is there are anymore lie and give him a chance to "own up" before hand.
For me, a breach in NC by Kiss after NC letter being sent would have me in a lawyer's office at the earliest appointment.
Thanks for you quick response Rocketqueen.
The message was sent before he changed cell phone numbers. We just sent the NC letter yesterday, so the msj was before the NC letter.
I just wrote a letter for WH asking him to
*write a full confession
*write an apology
*explain why this happened
*a detailed recovery plan
*proof that he is actively doing something
And I'm asking him to come home until he has all of the above, not before. I have not yet given him the letter, I'm waiting for feedback from you guys.
Thanks for you quick response Rocketqueen.
The message was sent before he changed cell phone numbers. We just sent the NC letter yesterday, so the msj was before the NC letter.
I just wrote a letter for WH asking him to
*write a full confession
*write an apology
*explain why this happened
*a detailed recovery plan
*proof that he is actively doing something
And I'm asking him to come home until he has all of the above, not before. I have not yet given him the letter, I'm waiting for feedback from you guys.
Hi Alada;
Don't waste time getting him to tell you WHY this A happened. The reason WHY is that he allowed someone other than his wife to meet his EN's. He had poor boundaries that did not protect his marriage. He acted selfishly, and was not considering you at all.
Getting a wayward to think about WHY usually leads them to think about how it was YOUR fault. Plus, he will still be a bit in the fog of the A, and will not see his own selfishness clearly.
Instead, you might get him to consider what were the conditions that led to the A. These are the things that will need changing. Things that allowed him to have a secret second life. Conditions that allowed him to have his EN's met outside of marriage (spending time with a member of the opposite gender; having personal conversations, taking admiration from her, keeping it all a secret from you, etc.)
Thanks catwhit
When we did the EN's questionarie, we talked about what you are suggesting. At the begining he would say he didn't know why, after the questionarie, he clearly identified the reasons. Maybe change the wording.
Instead of
*explain why this happened
include something like
* create a plan to avoid future A
what do you think?
Exactly what catwhit said. As for the recovery plan, Dr' Harley already has one and your husband should agree to follow it.
From the articles section
here Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery
After you are through withdrawal from the addiction to your lover, your depression will have lifted and you will no longer feel a craving to talk to your lover. At that time you will be ready to put into place rules that will guide you and your husband toward a deep love for each other. After you have followed the rules for a while (six months to two years), you and your husband will be soul-mates.
These are the Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery that you and your husband should follow to help you restore your love for eachother:
1. The Rule of Protection: Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness.
If you and your husband want to be in love with each other, you must build your Love Bank accounts. But before you build them, you must be sure there are no leaks in the Love Bank. It's pointless to deposit love units into a sieve, where every deposit is promptly withdrawn by a Love Buster. So you must make a special effort to plug up those leaks by committing yourselves to avoid being the cause of each other's unhappiness.
The most obvious things spouses do to ruin their love for each other is what I call Love Busters. They are angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, annoying behavior, selfish demands and dishonesty. I describe these destructive habits in my basic concepts, but if you need special help learning how to avoid them, I suggest you read, Love Busters: Overcoming Habits that Destroy Romantic Love. This book will help you identify the Love Busters that keep emptying your Love Bank accounts, and show you how to stop inflicting them on each other.
Most of the Q&A columns I've posted on the Marriage Buildersﾮ web site focuses attention on the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). This policy protects both you and your husband from each other thoughtless decisions. Your affair was a blatant example of thoughtlessness on your part because you knew it would hurt your husband, but you went ahead and did it anyway. The Policy of Joint Agreement is a very important guide to helping you keep the Rule of Protection. That's because it helps you realize that anything you do that hurts your husband is off limits to you, regardless of how wonderful it makes you feel.
If you had followed the Policy of Joint Agreement, you would never have had an affair. But the Policy will also help you avoid hurting each other in a host of other ways, too. My book, Fall in Love, Stay in Love, can help you learn how to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, and use it to negotiate agreements that are fair for both of you. Once you learn to negotiate with each other fairly, you will have learned how to follow the Rule of Protection.
2. The Rule of Care: Meet your spouse's most important emotional needs.
The way to deposit the most love units is to meet a person's most important emotional needs. Your lover did that when he wrote you all those e-mail letters because conversation was your most important emotional need. After one month of filling your Love Bank with thousands of love units that were e-mailed to you, you found him irresistible -- you were in love with him.
Conversation is not your only important emotional need. Affection, recreational companionship, admiration and sexual fulfillment may be some of the other important emotional needs that your lover met. Unless your husband eventually meets your must important needs as well as your lover met them, you will be frustrated and at risk for another affair.
Sometimes a spouse must learn to meet a need that he or she has never been very effective in meeting. Many of the spouses I've counseled have had to learn to be affectionate for the first time in their lives. They also have had to learn to be stimulating conversationalists and skilled lovers. They have had to learn to provide greater financial support, become more effective in their parenting skills and learn to become admiring instead of being critical. New habits that lead to need fulfillment can be learned by anyone. All it takes is a plan and willingness to follow it until expert level is achieved.
But your husband may already know how to meet your emotional needs. An important reason that you had an affair was that your husband's work schedule prevented him from giving you the attention you craved from him. When you and your husband agree to follow this second Rule to Recovery, his work schedule will no longer stand between you, because meeting your needs will become your husband's highest priority. All the needs that your lover was meeting for you will be met by your husband in the future.
If you need help identifying and learning how to meet each other's important emotional needs, I suggest you read, His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-proof Marriage. It describes the ten most important emotional needs for men and women, and how to become an expert at meeting those needs. When your husband has learned to meet your needs, he will be depositing so many love units that his account in your Love Bank will be overflowing. By then, you will be thoroughly convinced that leaving your lover to rebuild your marriage was the right decision to make.
3: The Rule of Time: Give your spouse your undivided attention.
You indicated in your letter that it was the lack of your spouse's attention that drove you into the arms of your lover. But it may have been more a lack of time than a lack of attention. As I already mentioned, your husband may already know how to meet your emotional needs, but unless he sets aside enough time to do it, all of his skill does you no good at all. It's the man who gives you time for undivided attention who will win your heart.
I suggest that you and your husband plan to spend at least 15 hours each week together, giving each other your undivided attention. Use that time to meet each other's emotional needs for affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. I have found that if that amount of time is taken to meet emotional needs, you can spend the rest of your 100 waking hours each week doing just about anything you please, without any risk to your love for each other. But if you do not set aside that time, your good intentions will not buy you a single love unit.
Since most everything we do must be scheduled or we don't do it, I suggest you take about a half an hour each week (say, Sunday afternoon from 3:30 to 4:00) to schedule your time together for the next week. Get out your schedules and write each other into your appointment books. Once scheduled, don't let anything interfere with your time together.
I suggest spending the same days and times together every week because it's easier to remember than a new time each week. Besides, you can be better emotionally prepared to be with each other if you always know that Tuesday evening you will be together from 7 to 10.
I also suggest that you spend time together when you have plenty of energy. Don't give each other the leftovers, give each other the best of yourselves. That's why I generally rule out time together after 11:00 pm. For one thing, you need your sleep for the challenges of the next day, and for another, there are not too many people who are at their best that late at night.
Finally, I suggest that you spread your time out every week, giving each other at least one hour of undivided attention every day. I am generally opposed to cramming all of your time together into a marathon weekend of 15 hours, because undivided attention is required, and 15 hours of anything makes undivided attention almost impossible.
4. The Rule of Honesty: Be completely honest with your spouse.
We have already discussed honesty as an extraordinary precaution to prevent you from contacting your lover, so I won't say much more about it. But what you begin as an extraordinary precaution, must become the standard way you and your husband communicate with each other -- with openness and honesty.
You have not been honest with your husband. If you had been honest, you could never have had an affair. Your honesty is your husband's greatest protection because it lets him know what you are up to. It also helps you both make adjustments to each other. Instead of having an affair, you should have told him how unhappy you were with his negligence of you, and how you were falling in love with another man who would give you his time and attention. If you had ended the budding relationship then, and focused on getting more of your husband's undivided attention, you would not have put both of you through such an ordeal.
The Basic Concepts section of this web site contains a section entitled, "the Policy of Radical Honesty." It outlines precisely what the rule of honesty is. It's complete honesty. I want you to read it over very carefully, because it explains precisely how honest you and your husband are to be with each other.
But be careful not to let Love Busters ruin the purity and value of honesty. Keep anger, disrespect and demands out of your honest expression of facts and feelings. If you can do that, you will find your honesty will not only help you find solutions to your problems, but it will also draw you closer together, and help you become the soul-mates that you can be.
If you are willing to permanently end your relationship with your lover (never see or communicate with him again), get through withdrawal, and then you and your husband follow the Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery, I guarantee you that you will have a great marriage. And I also guarantee you that neither of you will ever suffer through an affair again.
Thank you rocketqueen, I will print this out.
Do you think then that I should ask him to leave until he is ready or should I work with him at home?
Thank you rocketqueen, I will print this out.
Do you think then that I should ask him to leave until he is ready or should I work with him at home?
You will need to be living together to work on the marital concepts (POUA, POJA, PORH) together. I would get his commitment to the program first and if resists or does not follow through, then I would ask him to leave.
Rocketqueen, that's exactly what I did. On monday I printed out my EP's list and he agreed.
He has violated the one about telling me exactly where he is going, he went to his moms, which might not be a big deal, but who knows. The second violation was about honesty, he only revealed the happy bday message last night. Although to be honest, he did respond me when I asked him without hesitation.
Sorry, I meant that he should commit to the recovery plan (from the link).
Ok, thanks for the input. I will talk to him.
So when I got home from work we talked and he apologized, read the recovery plan and agreed to it. We need to sit down and make something more detailed to work on, but with three little ones is a bit hectic. I genuinely think he is honest.
The bad news, is that I saw OW. I organized a seminar last evening and ow came to it and sat right next to me. Is not even a topic she cares about, don't know if she was looking to talk to me or what. It was a two hour seminar, I was a nerve rack all the time. Don't want to spend too much time thinking about the incident, but this is just showing me how unsincere her initial apology was.
You will need to be living together to work on the marital concepts (POUA, POJA, PORH) together.
Strongly disagree with this. You can follow the Policies whether you are living together or not. In fact, learning to live these policies while apart is part of Dr. Harley's recovery program for those who are attempting to make amends after the affair has ended and the betrayed spouse was in Plan B. It's also part of his controversial approach toward blended families if a child and a step-parent have frequent conflicts: live apart but spend 15+ hours alone together per week until the child is out of the house or the conflicts disappear.
EDIT: HOWEVER, in the case of infidelity, living apart does make it much easier for the unfaithful spouse to continue to cheat. A desire to live apart on the part of the unfaithful spouse should be interpreted as a statement that they wish to continue cheating without the betrayed spouse's interference.
SECOND EDIT: Language clarification, I don't want to be interpreted too broadly here.
So when I got home from work we talked and he apologized, read the recovery plan and agreed to it. We need to sit down and make something more detailed to work on, but with three little ones is a bit hectic. I genuinely think he is honest.
The bad news, is that I saw OW. I organized a seminar last evening and ow came to it and sat right next to me. Is not even a topic she cares about, don't know if she was looking to talk to me or what. It was a two hour seminar, I was a nerve rack all the time. Don't want to spend too much time thinking about the incident, but this is just showing me how unsincere her initial apology was.
You will never recover living in an area where you risk seeing the OW at any time.
Thank Markos I do realize that. A job at U of Montana came up, I'm going to apply for it.
Also I've been reading the managing memories thread, becuase I have too many triggers at the campus. That helped a lot. I'm also drinking passion flower to help with mood changes and memories, it helps too.
Doormat, when my husband, kiss was on the radio program, Dr Harley told him that we needed to be living together to be able to work on recovery. That is why I advised Alada the same. I don't see how you can follow the policies together if you are living independently.
That's his advice to YOU. It varies according to circumstance; I've learned to my chagrin that Dr. Harley's advice on the radio show is quite individual, and applying it to other circumstances is sometimes counter-productive and a bit cargo-cult-ish.
I don't want to go on at length; advice regarding POJA during a separation would only be relevant to Alada if contact is actually ongoing and she must Plan B to preserve her health, or if she divorces and remarries. Just pointing out there are circumstances under which you CAN follow MarriageBuilders while separated, and which Dr. Harley endorses on his radio show and discusses at length both in "I Promise You" and "His Needs, Her Needs for Parents".
The ideal situation, of course, is typically for the couple to live under the same roof to better meet one another's needs.
Thank you for the clarification
Just wanted to do a quick update.
FWH is staying at home right now. He is been dilligent about calling me or texting me when comming back home from dropping the kids at school. He is making efforts to amend his error. But I guess he is not totally aware of the damage he's done.
We read together the managing memories thread, it was a lot of help. As many men, he is totally able to block all memories, not so much for me. He used to think I was exagerating, but now he seems to understand, although sometimes it feels he forgets.
One of the things I'm struggling right now, is what to do on our UA time. One of his 5 EN's is RC, and we just realized we don't have something that is genuinelly fun for both of us. I don't want to spend our UA time just talking about all the problems, I wish we could do something fun. We've talked, and we both enjoyr hiking and camping, however with three little ones, it would be next to imposible to have UA time during a hiking/camping trip.
Do you have any suggestions?
One of the things I'm struggling right now, is what to do on our UA time. One of his 5 EN's is RC, and we just realized we don't have something that is genuinelly fun for both of us. I don't want to spend our UA time just talking about all the problems, I wish we could do something fun. We've talked, and we both enjoyr hiking and camping, however with three little ones, it would be next to imposible to have UA time during a hiking/camping trip.
Do you have any suggestions?
One thing I have heard on the radio show was a co-op where you trade kid-sitting with other parents. They take your kids one evening, you take theirs another evening.
Another option is just plain hiring people, I know that can get expensive but what's money when you are trying to save your marriage. Dr Harley has really put his money where his mouth is on that point- he said that when their kids were little their bill one month for childcare was more than their mortgage.
Fortunately for us right now, we are able to do it while the kids are at school.
Have you done the Recreational Companionship questionnaire? That will identify good common interest activities.
Your instinct about UA time conversation is correct, you should make a point of NOT talking about problems, but just having good safe conversation with the goal of understanding each other better.
Neera, no I have not even seen the Recreational Companionship questionnaire, can you point me to it. I did a quick google search but couldn't find it.
Here is the link. The actual inventory is a link at the bottom of the introductory page.
Here
Another update.
This past sunday was the one month mark. After reading the managing memories thread I decided to take action and we did a lot of talking on saturuday. He answered all my questions, and he did a very sincere confession with a very different language than the one he used with his initial confession. I felt that was my turning point and I feel lots better. On sunday I met with a very dear friend and talked some more. Its amazing what a true friend can do for you.
The last couple of weeks were hard in terms of tirggers and events, I was feeling down to the point of not wanting to do any more love deposits, and was afraid of the one month mark. But I do feel with new energy.
We have a lot of homework to do, we read the 3 emotional states of a marriage, and found ourselves to the T on each one of them. It gave us so much light and it gives us more ground to work.
I'm hoping for a much better month!
Last night we tried to discuss something using the POJA guidelines, but we had no sucess.
I would like to read some books, but my budget is really tight, do you know if I could get some used books somewhere?
Getting one or two books wouldn't be a problem, but as I see I need more than a couple to get this going. Any thoughts or suggestions?
Alada, what books are you looking to read?
What were you trying to POJA?
Last night we tried to discuss something using the POJA guidelines, but we had no sucess.
I would like to read some books, but my budget is really tight, do you know if I could get some used books somewhere?
Getting one or two books wouldn't be a problem, but as I see I need more than a couple to get this going. Any thoughts or suggestions?
would seem like a great book on the topic.
Yes I think we need th he wins she wins, 5 steps into romantic love and love busters.
We were trying to talk about family and honesty. Thats a very hard topic for both of us
"Love Busters" walks you through the process of recovering from lying patterns. It's a challenging bad habit, to be sure, but it can be overcome.
I thought love busters was more about overcomming my own love busters.
I think that is our main problem, I tend to over react to problems and FWH is an avoider. So we get nowhere discussing problems. This last time we tried discussing something, we just had to stop, and we both felt hurt afterwards.
Do you recomend then the he wins she wins only?
Honesty and Openness is kind of a special one because it is a Love Buster when you are being dishonest, but is also an EN that can be met. So you'll find that particular topic in both HNHN and Love Busters.
I haven't read "He Wins, She Wins" with my wife yet. We just learned it existed yesterday, and it's on our Amazon list now.
Having read the entirety of "Love Busters" twice, but only reviews of "He Wins, She Wins", it appears that the books can be divided this way:
* If your relationship contains much in the way of demands, disrespect, anger, annoying habits, or independent behavior, you need "Love Busters". It's probably best for people who have been in a relationship or married for many years.
* If your main challenge is effective negotiation to stop arguments, buy "He Wins, She Wins". Apparently it's also much shorter than "Love Busters", which is a really, really comprehensive book about stopping the things that make you fall out of love together. If the couple are newlyweds or have only been married a few years, this might be the best book for them.
But once again I caveat that I'm only going off what I'm reading ABOUT "He Wins, She Wins" at this point. It's on the list right after I finish reading "Deep Blue Secret" :-)
* If your relationship contains much in the way of demands, disrespect, anger, annoying habits, or independent behavior, you need "Love Busters". It's probably best for people who have been in a relationship or married for many years.
* If your main challenge is effective negotiation to stop arguments, buy "He Wins, She Wins". Apparently it's also much shorter than "Love Busters", which is a really, really comprehensive book about stopping the things that make you fall out of love together. If the couple are newlyweds or have only been married a few years, this might be the best book for them.
Having read "He Wins, She Wins," I would agree with the bolded. Although I kind of see it as a sequel to "Lovebusters." I don't think you're ready to get into "He Wins, She Wins" until you have a pretty good handle on Anger, Disrespectful Judgements and Demands (no matter how long you've been married). If these lovebusters aren't a current issue in your marriage, then "He Wins, She Wins" is a good book for you (regardless of the length of the marriage).
For us, we needed Lovebusters first.
Yeah, Love Busters was our first book. In fact, for the first several months of recovery before my wife started reading through all the books on her own, she thought MarriageBuilders was mostly about how to stop hurting each other...
Well, it seems we need Love busters then. thanks all for your comments, I really appreciate it.
On a different topic, I need some input.
My FWH�s sister is currently pregnant with her second child. Her children�s father is a married man, to another woman, that is. So as you can imagine seeing her pregnant is a trigger for me. My FWH wants to visit his family, but I dont feel ready. Plus sometines this man visits my sister in law. I was thinking on inviting them over to my house, but I�m not sure how Im going to react. Maybe if I go to their house, I can leave if I dont feel confortable... What do you think?
Well, it seems we need Love busters then. thanks all for your comments, I really appreciate it.
On a different topic, I need some input.
My FWH�s sister is currently pregnant with her second child. Her children�s father is a married man, to another woman, that is. So as you can imagine seeing her pregnant is a trigger for me. My FWH wants to visit his family, but I dont feel ready. Plus sometines this man visits my sister in law. I was thinking on inviting them over to my house, but I�m not sure how Im going to react. Maybe if I go to their house, I can leave if I dont feel confortable... What do you think?
Does the BW of your SIL's OM know about their affair and her OC?
From the little I know, yes the BW knows about the first child, a 6 yr old. Don't know if she knows about this second child they are expecting
From the little I know, yes the BW knows about the first child, a 6 yr old. Don't know if she knows about this second child they are expecting
Have you ever thought about telling the BW yourself? What if this poor BW is in the dark the whole time?
Have you thought about NC with his wayward sister? Some posters have had to go NC with wayward family members. You need to protect your family.
Thanks so much for following with me brainhurts, I really apreacite it.
Yes I have thought of it, but my FWH feels I'm so judgamental about his family, in general, not just this, that I feel it might be a big love buster.
So far FWH and me have agreed that whenever sister's OM makes himself present, we leave inmediately. Plus FWH is not to talk to OM anymore, he used to be very fiendly with him. FWH's sisters lives at her mom's so if we go NC with his sister, it would mean not visiting his family either, I'm afraid it would break the family apart.
I have not said this before, but I'm supposed to help FWH's sister in her upcoming labor. We agreed to this before the A. We have planned a vacation one day after her due date, and we even talked about me staying behind in case she is still pregnant. Again, I'm thinking this might turn into a love buster for FWH.
Is this something we need to POJA or is part of the EP's?
If it triggers you, then your FWH should want to protect you with everything in him.
Also, just because you were enthusiastic about it before the affair doesn't mean you still do it if you're not enthusiastic about it now.
Have you tried to POJA this yet? You can also email Dr. H and have your FWH and you talk with the Harleys together??
We have not specifically tried to POJA this, we tried POJAing something else and his family topic came up. It was very sour for him.
So far FWH has agreed to not going to his mom's until I'm ready, but his family has shown no interest in coming over. Only his older sister has came to help with childcare, which has been great. FWH has stopped by his house to drop some medicines for his mom. They on the other hand, have called him asking for all kinds of help. His dad passed away several years ago, so in a sense FWH is the only man they have for fixing the house.
I'm going to try writing an email for Dr. H. and share it with you for input.
thanks!!
Thanks so much for following with me brainhurts, I really apreacite it.
Yes I have thought of it, but my FWH feels I'm so judgamental about his family, in general, not just this, that I feel it might be a big love buster.
No, Alada - not wanting to do something is not a Love Buster. That's not what a Love Buster is. If not wanting to do something were a Love Buster, then the Policy of Joint Agreement could never work.
Because you are triggered by seeing your wayward sister-in-law pregnant, you should not see her. It's too risky to your marriage. Recovery chances are slim enough as it is - do not deviate from the path.
Thanks so much for following with me brainhurts, I really apreacite it.
Yes I have thought of it, but my FWH feels I'm so judgamental about his family, in general, not just this, that I feel it might be a big love buster.
So far FWH and me have agreed that whenever sister's OM makes himself present, we leave inmediately. Plus FWH is not to talk to OM anymore, he used to be very fiendly with him. FWH's sisters lives at her mom's so if we go NC with his sister, it would mean not visiting his family either, I'm afraid it would break the family apart.
I have not said this before, but I'm supposed to help FWH's sister in her upcoming labor. We agreed to this before the A. We have planned a vacation one day after her due date, and we even talked about me staying behind in case she is still pregnant. Again, I'm thinking this might turn into a love buster for FWH.
That is really disgusting. I cannot even imagine that you would help a mistress give birth to the child of some married man. Do you enthusiastically endorse adultery? Does this OM's wife know all about this affair? Does she know about your endorsement?
I don't know about you, but I find that my life is much happier when I don't hang out with adulterers, liars, cheaters, theives, etc. I use alot of discretion in my choice of friends and family with whom I associate myself.
Yes I have thought of it, but my FWH feels I'm so judgamental about his family, in general, not just this, that I feel it might be a big love buster.
It is your job to judge and discern those with whom you associate. I don't understand what you mean when you say something might be a lovebuster? It would be a lovebuster if your husband tried to railroad you into hanging out with cheaters... yuck
Wow, thanks for sharing your points of view, I was starting to feel I was being indeed judgamental about this.
During the weekend FWH and me had a talk about his family, specifically his sister. He agreed that we need to wait more time before we see her again. As far as the birth goes, I think she has given up on the idea. Last time FWH talked to his sister, she was not very sure about calling me to set up an apointment.
However, when talking about his family, we found a major issue. He feels he has let down his family. As I said before his dad passed away almost 15 yrs ago, FWH was 17 I think, and he is the only man at his house. His family is a complete chaos, I do not want to go into the details, but they have money, health and sanitary issues. FWH feels extremely guilty about this situation, specially since he is not working and is not able to support his family economically.
I think this last point is a deal breaker for him. I'm the breadwinner at home, I have a Ph.D. and he was on his way to get a college degree when he got into the A. He desperately needs to feel like he is supporting his family, if not the only breadwinner, at least contribute something. But right now that is not possible, he is a SAHD. His number one EN is admiration, and anything I say to him falls on deaf ears, since he does not feel adequate enough.
Do you have any suggestions about how to work his ego up?
I totally agree with MelodyLane. I would have nothing to do with another person if I knew them to be an adulterer...unless they were following a path of making amends and recovery with their spouse.
As for the family, I don't understand why Mr. Alada believes he is responsible for his extended family's health & wealth. Once married, the wife and children become the priority.
Thanks Rocketqueen, that's exactly my thought, but I feel the issue underlying is that his necessity is to support a family.
FWH does not feel we need his economical help, and that is true, so he is turning to trying to help his family. Apparently the A started because he also felt the need to protect OW.
"Do you have any suggestions about how to work his ego up?"
Yes, he can get a job and build some self esteem. Telling him some cute, but insincere, words will not make him feel better about himself. As far a I see, he has nothing to feel good about. He can change that.
And he might also start supporting his sister by refusing t support her when she behaves in reckless and self destructive manners. He is not a supporter but an enabler. That is not love.
What about the wife of his sisters OM? Have you and your husband informed this poor woman about the affair?
Thanks MelodyLane,
Yes I know, getting a job will do good, but I'm not ready to let him get an indenpendent activity right now. His A took place at school, we are working on EP's right now.
About his sister, yes I've told him that he needs to talk to her about me not being on the birth, and giving her the reasons, her own A. We are working on that. I'm thinking of writing her a letter, don't think I can talk to her in person.
As far as the OM's wife, I was looking on FB during the weekend to find some info, but found none. Will work harder on that.
We are also going on a vacation in three more weeks, once we are back he can start looking for a job.
Yes I know, getting a job will do good, but I'm not ready to let him get an indenpendent activity right now. His A took place at school, we are working on EP's right now.
Alada, that is good that you are thinking along these lines. Any jobs that he looks into should complement your marriage.
I'm the breadwinner at home, I have a Ph.D. and he was on his way to get a college degree when he got into the A. He desperately needs to feel like he is supporting his family, if not the only breadwinner, at least contribute something. But right now that is not possible, he is a SAHD. His number one EN is admiration, and anything I say to him falls on deaf ears, since he does not feel adequate enough.
Do you have any suggestions about how to work his ego up?
I think I might have a suggestion.
So you know where I am coming from, I am a SAHD. I am the caregiver for my adult autistic son. I hold a PhD as well, and am now retired. Comparing my work career with what I am doing now, I can tell you in all honesty that work was easier. I never realized just how much rest I got at work until I was home all the time being kept so busy that it takes me half a day to get around to responding to a posting like this.
Admiration needs to be sincere. That is really a tough thing to come by in the aftermath of an affair. Yet, there are things that are genuine items for which you could be expressing admiration. The most obvious one is how his efforts support your career. When you are married, your career really becomes "our" career. That is why alimony exists, because the supporting spouse really deserves a cut of the working spouses salary in recognition of the contribution they made. I suggest starting there. Make certain that he understands that you regard your life together as a team effort, for which his contribution is essential and admired.
Thanks so much for sharing your point of view MrEureka, and that is exactly the argument that I have been using for years with him. And is not only an argument, is really true.
My work implies field work, and FWH always comes with me, drives me around and does the hard job, driving offroad and chasing/capturing deer. So really, I would feel that it would be easy for him to see how all my successes are actually ours.
But sadly, FWH does not think so.
He supported me all through my doctoral years, drove me around for research, stayed home with the girls when I needed to attend conferences, etc, etc. I'm sure you know what I'm saying. But again, this is not enough for FWH, he literally needs to bring money home in order to feel admired. For instance we have a new truck, that he drives. Apparently it is humiliating for him to drive it, since everyone at the university (when he was attending) asked him who put gas in it. Saying his wife was putting gas on the truck to a bunch of the college students is too humiliating for him. I think , the fact that he needs so badly to bring money home, is cultural
I asked him, what if you do get a job, and do half as much money as I do, or even less. Would that be enough to satisfy your necessity for admiration. He said so, but I really doubt it.
In the past, I have tried complementing him for the way he drives, for all his hard work, for his navigation skills offroad, for his mechanical skills, for his leadership on the field... but aparently that is not enough for him.
We used to live in the States, and he worked part time. When we moved back to Mexico is when the issues began about him not working. I have a feeling is mostly becuase he feels judged by people, specially his family.
I see that there are two different sources that your husband seeks admiration from. There is the admiration he gets from you, which you need to persistently supply even if he seems to shrug it off, and there is the admiration he wants from others. Admiration supplied by others is not something he should be seeking so much, because this amounts to having one's ENs met outside of marriage. That is as bad as seeking intimate conversation outside of marriage. If it is supplied by an OS person, then he is off on another affair. In a healthy marriage, your admiration should be sufficient for him.
Yes MrEureka that is what I think as well, maybe I need to be more consistent in giving him sincere compliments.
I have neglected that aspect, since as you say he shrugs most of my compliments, I just stopped giving them. Maybe he was already in the whithdraw phase and thus he was shrugging my compliments. I need to learn different ways to compliment him effectively.
On another note, we went to a very confy coffee shop last night and we talked about his sister.
A few days ago, I wrote a letter to his sister asking her to stop her relationship and explaining her how damageful FWH's affair was to all of us. I showed the letter to FWH and opened the door for a discussion about the topic. I was happily surprised by what FWH had to say about the letter and his desires to help his sister. He talked about how he did not wish his siter to go on with this relationship, he now understands how much damage one can do not only to the people around you, but also to himself. I see how much he has grown after going through this challenge, he is so much mature and considerate about other's feelings. He is not totally done with the changes he (we) need to make, but he is totally in the right path.
He is now determined to help his sitster out of this relationship. We are going to re-write the letter as to make it from both of us, and we are giving her the letter very soon. We are also visiting his older sister who lives in the states, talk to her and see if the wayward sister can move with her while she breaks from her A.
So once, again I'm asking for help.
We were talking about how to finish the sister's a, but we need to have a plan.
Here is a bit of background. OM has a family with three teenagers. OM has been with wayward sister in law for almost 9 yrs. During this time they had one kid and they are expecting their second right now. She is due in about three more weeks. OM's wife probably doesn't know about this current child, she does know about the first one.
Sis in law and OM meet at work but they have not worked together for more than 5 years now. I'm assuming they meet at motels or such, but I have no idea.
Apparently her sisters have talked to her, but she is not willing to leave OM. OM calls her first thing in the morning and visit her/kid at least once a week. OM offers a ridiculous small financial support.
My bets are she is just going to ignore the letter we are about to send her and go her not so merry way with OM. We need to force her, but how do we do it.
Here is what we are thinking on doing.
Erase her FB accout, take her cell phone and change it and not allow this man into the house. Ideally she would go elsewhere, but I'm afraid we are going to have to force her, as in carry her somewhere else. Remember she is pregnant, so I'm also thinking about her baby.
We do need to let OM's wife know about this situation, but we have no proof right now that the baby is OM's other than our word. Do we need to take pictures? GPS? What do you suggest?
Another problem is sister's mom, I'm very warry of her support. She has enabled this a,and I'm not sure she would be supportive, how do we get her on board.
I'm specially afraid of the first NC weeks. What are your suggestions?
While I understand how you feel on this issue, there's a very, very important concept to MarriageBuilders -- and life -- that you do not address above.
You cannot force anyone to do anything. You can only enforce your own boundaries, and take your own actions.
So the question becomes, "What can you actually do?" Physically abducting someone is illegal, no matter how well-intentioned!
* If you are supporting her in some way, stop all such support until/unless she leaves the OM.
* If OMW is not aware of the second child, provide what proof you can of the ongoing affair and child's provenance to her.
* Other brainstorms
You have some leverage if she's staying with you, but that does not include things like "erasing her account" (don't step into that legal mess), "taking her cell phone" (unless you are the actual owner of it and the related account), or "carry[ing] her somewhere else".
Enforcing your boundaries cannot and does not include forcing those on other people. Her life is her life, and your only appropriate adult boundary is to not allow her into yours. If she's staying with you but has no lease to do so, putting her stuff on the curb and changing all your locks is enforcing a boundary. Physically dragging her somewhere else or seizing/destroying her possessions, however, is NOT.
Thanks for the reallity check DnM, I'm guessing our only hope is that she can see what she is actually doing to herself and her family and decides to stop.
She is not living with us, she is living at her mom's. She is not working, her older sister is the breadwinner, so they are supporting her.
Will work on getting evidence and actually finding a way to contact OMW.
Wayward extended-family members are toxic to a couple in recovery. Your first concern needs to be your own marriage.
So what is the course of action that best protects your own marriage? As harsh as it may seem, you should plan B this SIL. As a couple, write a letter that states that as long as she is involved in an active affair, you will have nothing to do with her. Then shut her out of your life and concentrate on your own marriage.
Alada, it is real simple: just cut the sister out of your lives. Inform the OMs wife of the affair. Tell the rest of your family and then just back away. Have nothing to do with her. And I would make your husbands whole family knows why.
Thanks for the reallity check DnM, I'm guessing our only hope is that she can see what she is actually doing to herself and her family and decides to stop.
She is not living with us, she is living at her mom's. She is not working, her older sister is the breadwinner, so they are supporting her.
Will work on getting evidence and actually finding a way to contact OMW.
Does the sister say she is having an affair with this guy? If so, that is your evidence. Just call her or write her and tell her about the affair and give her your SIL's contact information.
MrEureka and MelodyLane, that was one of the feelings I had as DH and I were talking last night. I don't have time or energy to invest outside my marriage right now, but feel that is important for FWH. Specially since he feels I judge and not help his family.
What DnM said realy shine a light on me, it would be a battle to force her. We can only send her the letter and inform OMW, the rest is on her.
MelodyLane.. wayward sister has not said so in front of me, it's an aloud secret.
I want to share another piece to this puzzle. I have been hesitant to touch this, since it might be tricky for some.
OW has a physical disability, and is a trigger right now for me. A few weeks ago I saw a lady with exactly the same disability, it was so hard on me. I mean what are the chances of it... She has a stump hand. I can't help but feel triggered when I see someone with this disability, I try to avoid people like this and I'm feeling remorse about it. Worse is that the trigger is now extending to other disabilities as well. What to do about this?
MelodyLane.. wayward sister has not said so in front of me, it's an aloud secret.
Alada, since this is common knowledge, I would tell the wife what you know. Didn't you say the OM visits her?
I am not sure how to answer your question about triggers. Maybe you are overthinking it? I don't see any problems there. You will have triggers, that is just a natural consequence of a tragedy. They will fade in time.
I wanted to make this into a separate post, but feel free to move it if is not ok to do so.
As we are working in recovery I found SF is number 3 on my FWH's EN list. And for me, it was not among the first five, but for recovery I feel it has been essential, maybe I would say 2.
However, we practice Natural Family planning, which ask us to abstain during our most fertile time, if we are postponing pregnancy. As some of you are aware, the most fertile time, is also the time with the highest libido for women.
During our marriage we have struggled with this, as in me holding my sexual desire during the most fertile time, and thus having a low libido the rest of the month. It turns into a frustrated husband and a recentfull wife. In fact, our last baby was a product of this case, we were not able to abstain and thus a baby came nine months later. Now, with the return of my fertility I find myself in the same position again.
Have any of you had any experience with this? We've read about doing other intimate activites, and we have tried but they are not fullfilling, specially now that we are working on recovery. What do you think?
Yes, I have experience with that. It was extremely depressing because, as you say, a woman's libido is highest during the fertile time.
Instead of using a birth control method that neither of you are happy with, I suggest you try to find one that you can both be happy with.
Thanks for moving the post Prisca.
We both feel very strongly about NFP, I'm not sure we can find something else. I'm totally against anything chemical, so that greatly reduces our options I belive.
I understand being against anything chemical. There are other options out there, that don't include anything chemical, which may work out better for you. Explore them.
The problem with continuing with NFP is that, although you both agree with the idea of it, it is causing problems that is making you both unhappy.
I understand being against anything chemical. There are other options out there, that don't include anything chemical, which may work out better for you. Explore them.
The problem with continuing with NFP is that, although you both agree with the idea of it, it is causing problems that is making you both unhappy.
You definitely need to explore additional options with your husband and find something that will make you both happy.
One problem about the topic of birth control is that in a little while a lot of people will show up to showcase their vast knowledge of sex and birth control options. They will be happy to explore those options with you, when really what you need is further exploration of the topic with your husband.
Alada, have you considered making a gynecologist appointment and bringing your husband with you?
You can discuss your options directly without making a permanent decision.
Today I caught FWH in a lie, I think he is a compulsive liar.
When I got home from work, he told me he had looked up on the web tips on how to stop being and avoider. He elaborated on what he found. He also looked for birth control methods.
Later today he left to get the car and I opened the computer on the history tab. No signs of he searching for any of the above. When he got home, I asked him about it, andhe stated again he did searh, maybe it got deleted from the history. It took me about 10 mins of me asking to get the truthh out of him. He finally admited he did not do the search and he made up the story. His argument is that he wanted me to admire his action. He said he did tought of doing the search but got caught up on a sports web page and forgot about it.
The big issue for me, is that he is still lying, I have no confidence now on his confession. I wrote his confession and got him to check it. He did. I later asked him to write his own confession and he said he did not remember any more and did not want to write a lie...
It's been six weeks since Dday, and I need to get all the truth. I have no access to a polygraph, my only way to make sure he is saying the truth is contacting OW, but I can't trust her either. There is some stuff I know for sure I have the truth, and I was thinking of asking OW her own version of it,to see if it matches and then from there...what am I saying, I feel we are back to square one. Don't know what to do.
About the lying, he is a "look good" liar and "get out of trouble liar"
I was also. Sometimes I catch myself about to lie and take a moment to stop.
As for the truth, schedule a polygraph.
Thanks for moving the post Prisca.
We both feel very strongly about NFP, I'm not sure we can find something else. I'm totally against anything chemical, so that greatly reduces our options I belive.
Hi Alada, are you using NFP for faith reasons, or is it for health concerns?
Yes JediKnight, that is exactly what he wants, how do I get him to stop with the lies?
There is a polygraph on the other side of the border, but it will be in english and FWH is not fluent, I wonder if that could be a problem.
LateforSky, I started using it for faith reasons, but right now is for both, faith and health.
We had a talk about his lying patterns and all. I asked him again about his A and there were more lies. Important lies. Among the several things he confessed initially I thought I had the truth on some stuff, and it turns out I didn�t. I don think I have posted the complete story, so I�m going to write it out for you in hopes that you help me see if there are holes or parts where you think I�m not getting the truth.
OW and FWH chatted about her problems. One day they walked to the library and she asked for a hug. FWH hugged her and then he started to feel atraction for her, at least a stronger one. Before this they never talked about the feelings they had for each other. She had a motorcycle accident and was not able to carry her school bag, so he walked her to her car. OW�s car was parked at the very end of the parking lot. So they were in a remote place. Once the reached the car, OW asked for another hug, FWH huged her and then kissed her. I have asked several times if he touched her, I have made specific questions and he has said no to all of them. The first week their kisses were short. They would go to her car, get in it, talk about their love and kiss. This all happened at school. Never went anywhere else, although they were planning on going to the movies.
The second week came by and FWH started to feel remorse and told her, but OW kept pushing saying that she was confortable and that he loved him. OW talked about her problems with her boyfriend. On the last day of the affair, they went to get some paperwork from one of my cars. FWH went to my office to get some papers, while OW waited outside and then went in my car to get some permits.
Originally he have told me that OW was quiet all the way. Yesterday he admited they did talk AND kissed. FWH says OW asked him how he was feeling and he again said was feeling remorseful. He had his family to take care and this was not ok. OW got quiet for a while and then started talking again about problems with her B. Once they reached the offices for the permit, OW didnt want to get out of the car, in case someone saw them. When FWH came back he kissed OW. On their way back they kept talking about her problems.
It has been 7 weeks and now I finally found out they kissed in my car. The car I have been driving, the one I use to pick up the girls from school, the one where we have spent time chatting about our marriage. It s beyond me and I can not help but feel betrayed all over again. He is visible sorry, and remorseful. But he can not help but lie.
Im going to pursue the polygraph, don�t know if it will work, becuase of the language issues. But I hope that you can read between the lines and tell me if you see something else that does not make sense. Or if you can recomend me something.
Just wanted to give you an update.
We had a great vacation a few weeks ago. We went to the beach, lovely weather. Mom came with us and helped with the kiddos while we had some UA time.
When we came back we had a bit of a setback, but I feel it was due to the hectic Christmas time. We hardly had much UA time that week.
FWH is now working and the semester has started. I have not been able to find a new job but I'm still at it. We start classes next week. I have talked to several authorities here in college, but none of them seem supportive of my need to not have OW in my class, students have rights.... I'm really praying I find a job before OW registers for the class.
Our marriage is so much stronger now. Spending 15+ hours as UA time is being a great blessing.
Thanks to all who gave advice and kept us in prayers. We are still working very hard every day to give the best.
We bought the online program and are now working on it.
With DH working we have been finding some obstacles.
OW is not back in college, that is good for me, but I still feel I need to get another job. I have so many triggers here.
As far as the program goes, we just bought it a few days ago. We do not have it yet, but we received the emails about some questionaries.
Last night I asked DH to work on the questionaries, he needs help with translation, so it needs to happen when all the kids are in bed. We went into bed to get the little one settled and all of a sudden DH wanted some SF, which is fine, but I felt it was a top priority to work on the questionaries. I got mad, but kept it to myself, I usually have angry outbrusts. Trying to avoid AO I just went to sleep. So we ended not having any SF nor questionaries done.
How do I handle this, I felt hurt that he postponed the questionaries. To me it is my priority to get started on the program, but for him, it can wait. I do not want to LB him by demanding he does the questionarie right there right now. But I don't feel like SF unless I see him involved in recovery. Any suggestions?
We bought the online program and are now working on it.
With DH working we have been finding some obstacles.
OW is not back in college, that is good for me, but I still feel I need to get another job. I have so many triggers here.
As far as the program goes, we just bought it a few days ago. We do not have it yet, but we received the emails about some questionaries.
Last night I asked DH to work on the questionaries, he needs help with translation, so it needs to happen when all the kids are in bed. We went into bed to get the little one settled and all of a sudden DH wanted some SF, which is fine, but I felt it was a top priority to work on the questionaries. I got mad, but kept it to myself, I usually have angry outbrusts. Trying to avoid AO I just went to sleep. So we ended not having any SF nor questionaries done.
How do I handle this, I felt hurt that he postponed the questionaries. To me it is my priority to get started on the program, but for him, it can wait. I do not want to LB him by demanding he does the questionarie right there right now. But I don't feel like SF unless I see him involved in recovery. Any suggestions?
It's good that you avoided a verbal AO, but the goal is to not get angry in the first place. In this case, your anger came from a DJ about your husband's priorities. Even if you didn't say the DJ to him, you thought it, and that made you angry. Even if you didn't verbalize you anger, I'll bet he knew you were angry when you rolled over and went to sleep.
The right way to handle this would have been to recognize that he wanted SF and you wanted to do the worksheets and then try to negotiate (POJA) a solution that was a win for the both of you. Instead, you both lost out and love busted each other.
BTW, I have a hard time with this too. It's so easy to see from the outside but very difficult to apply at first because our instincts guide us in the wrong direction. Especially when our $LB balances are low.
Glad to hear that OW is not back in college, but yes it sure sounds like you need to get another job. Are you making any headway with that?
As far as questionnaires vs SF, I felt similar when we first started doing MB.
Complaining was one of the toughest things for me to learn to do. I was disrespectful and tended to criticize rather than complain. I was surprised when I started wording things as "I felt disappointed when�." or "I would like it if�" and H started responding to me by either changing his behavior or suggesting that we POJA.
It was smart of you Alada to go to sleep rather than have an AO. Can you tell your H this morning that you felt hurt that he did not start the questionnaire? Can you thoughtfully request that he make time for them?
It's good that you avoided a verbal AO, but the goal is to not get angry in the first place.
So getting angry in itself its a problem. I guess I need to learn a lot more.
Especially when our $LB balances are low.
This is so true, the last two weeks we have been prety low on UA time. Babe was sick so most of our UA time was being eaten up by taking care of babe. I feel particularly vulnerable this first weeks of classes, having all these triggers, being low on UA and having my babe sick. I get it, how do I get DH to understand this as well.
Apparently I'm not good at comunicating without LB. Would writting him a note be a better idea?
It was smart of you Alada to go to sleep rather than have an AO. Can you tell your H this morning that you felt hurt that he did not start the questionnaire? Can you thoughtfully request that he make time for them?
Thanks BlindSighted, I tend to get so worked up and with all these emotions I just rather sleep on it. I left before DH this morning, he spent a few hours cleaning the house. He usually does that when he is remorseful or mad at me for something. We talked on the phone, but I didn't want to address the issue, we'll talk later today when the kiddos are all in bed.
We made it through the first two online sessions of the seminar. We again had trouble of him putting of for the next day. I would think he is reluctanct partner. I see lots of reasons why he is not enthusiastic about doing it.
First and most important language. He is not 100% proficient in english, so it tires him out to read or listen in english. Second, and also important. I have found some triggers in the sessions.
I have a question about triggers and honesty. Lately I have been having a lot of triggers, this week was particularly bad. I felt prety down the last few days, the first few I tried to though them up, but they got the best of me, specially since we have very low UA for the last few weeks. By the third day it was prety evident. DH kept asking, and I didn�t know if I should�ve told him exactly what was happening, or I should�ve avoided talking about A again. There are specific words he use or stuff he does that triggers Dday and sometimes the A. I actually wrote down a list of triggers. I have not showed the list to DH. Do I need to? how aware he needs to be of these specific triggers?
There are specific words he use or stuff he does that triggers Dday and sometimes the A. I actually wrote down a list of triggers. I have not showed the list to DH. Do I need to? how aware he needs to be of these specific triggers?
Simply say "It bothers me when you do ____," or "It bothers me when you say _____." You do not need to give a reason for why it bothers you. The fact that you are bothered is enough reason for him to stop.
There are specific words he use or stuff he does that triggers Dday and sometimes the A. I actually wrote down a list of triggers. I have not showed the list to DH. Do I need to? how aware he needs to be of these specific triggers?
Simply say "It bothers me when you do ____," or "It bothers me when you say _____." You do not need to give a reason for why it bothers you. The fact that you are bothered is enough reason for him to stop.
Yes, listen to Prisca here. It will not do you any good to try to explain WHY. Believe me, I have done this and it will only leave you feeling worse. Stick to the simple explanation as she suggests and do not elaborate.
Thanks for those suggestions I will work nicely pointing out when soemthing bothers me.
We watched the online seminars over the weekend, I think DH is getting better at understanding english!! We worked on the questionarie and he said he finds my requests for him to be home early a SD. I suppose he would like to come home as late as his works requires him. I didn't want to discuss this at the moment. I basically would want him to be home early so we can have more UA time. The last three weeks have been realy low. 5, 6 and finally 13 hours this past week. Just right now we talked on the phone and he is going to have a seminar at work. From 9am-7pm T,W and R. I felt crushed, he didn't ask how I felt about it, he just said he had to be at 8:30 tomorrow.
Please help me find the right words to express my feelings without making it a SD. His priority right now is work, because he feels the need to help me financially. And he is right I'm under a lot of stress money wise right now. But, I feel working on our M is more important.
Any suggestions?
Actually, requesting that he be home early is not a Selfish Demand - it's the other way around: staying out late when you are not enthusiastic about it is a demand / Independent Behavior on his part. If he's following the rules, he can't stay out later than you are enthusiastic.
Also, UA time is the first priority. Dr. Harley's recommendation is that the two of you sit down Sunday afternoon and schedule your week together. Put the 15 hours of UA time in first. Nothing else should be scheduled until those hours are guaranteed. And of course nothing should go on the schedule unless you are both enthusiastic about it.
I would go over the Independent Behavior chapter in Love Busters together, with the lesson material that goes with it.
Let him know that you are not enthusiastic about him unilaterally setting his schedule. Tell him you want to solve the financial problems together, as partners, in a way that you are both enthusiastic about. Make sure that you aren't demanding, disrespectful, or angry to him about the financial problems, or you will be sending a mixed message that he needs to prioritize finances over time together.
We made it through the first two online sessions of the seminar. We again had trouble of him putting of for the next day. I would think he is reluctanct partner. I see lots of reasons why he is not enthusiastic about doing it.
First and most important language. He is not 100% proficient in english, so it tires him out to read or listen in english.
I imagine it could be challenging to focus intently to a program in a second language.
We made it through the first two online sessions of the seminar. We again had trouble of him putting of for the next day. I would think he is reluctanct partner. I see lots of reasons why he is not enthusiastic about doing it.
First and most important language. He is not 100% proficient in english, so it tires him out to read or listen in english.
I imagine it could be challenging to focus intently to a program in a second language.
He is actually is getting better at it. The first videos, we stopped every now and then to make sure he was understanding. The last one we saw he did just fine. He is even getting admiration from understanding more english now .
I imagine it could be challenging to focus intently to a program in a second language.
He is actually is getting better at it. The first videos, we stopped every now and then to make sure he was understanding. The last one we saw he did just fine. He is even getting admiration from understanding more english now .
Excellent!
English is my first language and I still found it useful to view the videos more than once!
Please help me find the right words to express my feelings without making it a SD. His priority right now is work, because he feels the need to help me financially. And he is right I'm under a lot of stress money wise right now. But, I feel working on our M is more important.
Any suggestions?
How about "I felt hurt by your Independent Behavior yesterday when you called to inform me that you would be working late. I would love it if we could start reading the Independent Behavior section in the LoveBuster Book. Are you willing to do that with me?".
Tell him you want to solve the financial problems together, as partners, in a way that you are both enthusiastic about. Make sure that you aren't demanding, disrespectful, or angry to him about the financial problems, or you will be sending a mixed message that he needs to prioritize finances over time together.
markos has hit it right on the nose! And great point about keeping any LB'ers out of it or else he will get mixed messages regarding how important the finances are to you.
I LB'ed my H over finances (he had snuck a lot of debt to finance his A) at the beginning of recovery. That was setting us up for failure because my H's instinct was to "do the right thing" and try to pay off all of his debt "on his own"�which in essence meant over and above the 40 hours per week of work. NOT what I wanted at all! Anything from here forward that is "on his own" is IB. We had to learn to POJA all of it, even the wreckage of the past�without LB'ers!
The last one we saw he did just fine. He is even getting admiration from understanding more english now .
You are doing AWESOME Alada! Yay to the admiration!
You are doing AWESOME Alada! Yay to the admiration!
Aww thank you, I get my own points too!!
The evening was a little awkward, I didn't want to bring the topic unless we were really ready to discuss it, but I was feeling down. He asked and I told him straight that I was not happy about the way he took his decision, I did not say I was mad for him going to this seminar. He didn't took it well. We stopped there for a while and talked about other stuff. We came back later to talk about it.
He then said he would not go to the seminar, if that is what I wanted. He has a history of silently doing things the way I want even when he is unhappy. I explained to him that the problem was not actually him going to the seminar, but the way he handled the decission making process. He was stuck in this it's-my-work-my responsability idea. He was getting a little worked up, so again we stopped the discussion.
For third time, we tried again. This time he had decided already he was not going to the semiar. I asked him if he was enthusiastic about it, of course he was not. So I asked him for alternatives. He had none. I actually gave him a couple of alternatives to cover our UA time while he was attending his seminar. He was surprised and he actually liked them all.
At the end, he said he was sorry for not knowing what to do. This morning we woke up earlier to spend some time together, we will have lunch together since his seminar is about 15 mins away from campus (no, he is not comming to pick me up at campus, even when OW is not here, I don't want him close by), and we will put kids to bed earlier to enjoy some more UA time. I know it is not an ideal set up for UA, but it works for both of us, and it will only be two days!!
Sounds perfect and to the point the way that you explained your unhappiness to your H.
Good thinking, he shouldn't be anywhere near your campus. And neither should you, but I know that you're working on getting a new job.
And great POJA'ing and coming up with enthusiastic agreements that work for both of you. I am impressed!
BS2013, I had a long post on your thread but I didn't want to hijack it, so I cut it and put it here.
Hubby has a history of being very unexpresssive. I can count how many times I have seen him crying with one hand. When we got married we moved to the USA, it was a different culture and different language. It was hard on us, but specially on him. I was doing my Ph.D. back then and I AO a lot. I hurt him a lot and I'm sure he felt very vulnerable in this new country with no friends and with a crazy wife. I remember he was often sick the first year. Now that I think of it, it maybe was his way of letting out so much stress.
So he turned even more unexpressive. He would do everything I said, with no beep to it. So I assumed he was happy with my decissions and never bothered asking. Again his unexpressiveness got deeper and deeper.
When I found out about the A, and I confronted him, he was very unexpressive, I guess that is to be expected. When he went NC, there were no signs of depression or anything. When I did exposure, he showed no emotions again. I have asked him if he got mad about exposure, but he says he felt nothing about it.
Now that we are working on R it feels to me that hubby is unexpressive as well. He shows affection if I ask him to, but stops once I feel satisfied, then I ask him again and the cycle starts. I honestly don't think he is in love with me, and it hurts so much. I feel like I'm picking up crumbs from his love. He is entusiastic about the online program and the R, but I don't think he gets it yet. He says he has done so much work, and I do agree he left college, got a new job, texts me every so often to let me know where he is, helps with the house. But you see, he is doing things that do not directly do love bank deposits.
Whenever we had SF he seems so unattached to me. I can see his eyes are not what you call filled with love.
These past weeks have been hard to get UA time. He is now obssesed with work. We tried scheduling our UA time for this week, and we can hardly agree to have 15 hrs. I feel he is not giving me the chance to fill his love bank.
If I give him affection, he just shrugs it off. SF, he is not engaged with me. His third EN is Physical attractiveness, and that one is a little tricky. The first trime we did the questionarie, he said he wanted me to look more juvenile (is not the exact word in spanish, but somethink like that) and I felt hurt because OW is 15 yrs younger than me, and I feel he wants me to look like her. I really don't know how to get to his heart.
When I found out about the A, and I confronted him, he was very unexpressive, I guess that is to be expected. When he went NC, there were no signs of depression or anything. When I did exposure, he showed no emotions again. I have asked him if he got mad about exposure, but he says he felt nothing about it.
Hi Alada, I have to get to work now, but I wanted to make a quick post to ask you how long was his affair with this woman?
What snooping do you have in place to be certain of no contact? I want to be certain that it is rock solid and there is no unaccounted for time. Also that you are snooping emails, phone, texts, etc.
I'll think about the rest of your post today and I'll be back later tonight to reply.
The A lasted about three weeks according to hubby. As he said, the third week, he was comming to the realization that what he was doing was wrong. He said he left his FB open so I could catch it and help him end the A. In the note I found, OW was saying to hubby how she felt he didn't like her kisses.
After he ended the A, he stayed home for about 3 mos, and my mom was helping with babe, so he was not alone at home at all. OW did call hubby a few times after exposure, when my mom was there. So after I found out about these calls I told mom and she was all ears. One of our EP's is to never go somewhere else when you get a call, so whenever he receives a call, I can hear what he is saying.
I have gps on his phone, he changed his phone number. There is no email or FB for him. I do check his cell phone every day both calls and texts. He is not very tech savy and he has a new cell, so I don't think he knows how to erase calls or text. He tried erasing the call OW make to his old cell phone but couldn't, thats how I found out. I have showed up unannounced to his work a few times to make sure he is there.
I guess the only thing I'm missing is his heart...
I guess the only thing I'm missing is his heart...
What was your relationship like when you were dating? How did he behave then? What about him caused you to fall in love with him?
OW did call hubby a few times after exposure, when my mom was there. So after I found out about these calls I told mom and she was all ears. One of our EP's is to never go somewhere else when you get a call, so whenever he receives a call, I can hear what he is saying.
Good! I like that he answers his calls while you are there.
How about at work? Could he get phone calls at work from OW? Could he email with her from there? I don't like it that the OW was brazen enough to keep calling him, but I do remember from your radio show that Dr. H stated that they look at affairs much more laid back in Mexico (you are in Mexico, right?)
I guess the only thing I'm missing is his heart...
It's obvious that you care for him very much and I am so sorry for the heartbreak that you are enduring. So long as you both are present and working on moving forward with learning MB techniques, things will consistently get better. They absolutely will.
Hubby has a history of being very unexpresssive. I can count how many times I have seen him crying with one hand.
My H was always unexpressive also. I remember a few times when I saw alligator tears, like when we gave birth, when we miscarried at 6 months, when he lost his fingers�but mostly was stoic and has always gone off by himself to grieve.
My experience was probably different than yours Alada, because of my H's long term affair. When my H truly had NC, oh my goodness I knew it with every fiber of my being. He would wake up howling so badly that I bet that our neighbors assumed that we suddenly invited Frankenstein to move in with us. And we live in a rural area lol.
Anyway, what I wanted to address is that my hubby was also very closed off to me until just recently. I think that he opened up a lot more simply because of my witnessing his withdrawal. It took some time for him to be at all present in our conversation. I think that as time goes on, you will notice this change in your hubby also.
When we got married we moved to the USA, it was a different culture and different language. It was hard on us, but specially on him. I was doing my Ph.D. back then and I AO a lot. I hurt him a lot and I'm sure he felt very vulnerable in this new country with no friends and with a crazy wife. I remember he was often sick the first year. Now that I think of it, it maybe was his way of letting out so much stress.
So he turned even more unexpressive. He would do everything I said, with no beep to it. So I assumed he was happy with my decissions and never bothered asking. Again his unexpressiveness got deeper and deeper.
You are figuring out your contribution to the state of the marriage. But you know that does not excuse an affair, right?
I'm not minimizing your pain at this because I did the same and still tend to beat myself up. I hazard a guess (please forgive me if I am wrong) that you and I are both very driven women?
Our pastor said a WONDERFUL thing to me when I told him the very same thing. He said "how cool is that? You BOTH bring such wisdom to the marriage that if you will learn to POJA, can you just imagine what you can accomplish together?".
More tomorrow on the rest of your post.
Alada; when everything else goes well, the SF will improve.
Right away, what sticks out is that you aren't getting in enough UA time.
15 hours is to MAINTAIN romantic love once it has been restored.
You need 25+ hours each week to restore it!
That is where your focus should be.
He says he has done so much work, and I do agree he left college, got a new job, texts me every so often to let me know where he is, helps with the house. But you see, he is doing things that do not directly do love bank deposits.
It will take time for the two of you to learn to make love bank deposits in the way that each of you like it. I know what you mean about things not hitting the mark, but they will.
Whenever we had SF he seems so unattached to me. I can see his eyes are not what you call filled with love.
Same here Alada, but my H also says the same thing about my eyes. I think that this is something else that will take time. Once you two get the gist of POJA and can do it fairly and successfully, you can POJA about SF. We have only been in real R for three months, and we have only just now begun to POJA SF things (it was too hard for me to stay pleasant because of mind tapes before now). We have to trust what everyone else who has gone before us says�that if we follow MB, we WILL build a passionate marriage that is better than ever.
These past weeks have been hard to get UA time. He is now obssesed with work. We tried scheduling our UA time for this week, and we can hardly agree to have 15 hrs. I feel he is not giving me the chance to fill his love bank.
This program doesn't work without the UA time. I'd venture to say that it may be THE most important part of the program. I'm not yet enjoying much of our UA time, but we still get over 30 hours per week (we do not have young children at home any more), and if we ever have to go one day without it, I am right back down the roller coaster. Can you two make a schedule TODAY for the rest of the week?
If I give him affection, he just shrugs it off. SF, he is not engaged with me. His third EN is Physical attractiveness, and that one is a little tricky. The first trime we did the questionarie, he said he wanted me to look more juvenile (is not the exact word in spanish, but somethink like that) and I felt hurt because OW is 15 yrs younger than me, and I feel he wants me to look like her. I really don't know how to get to his heart.
I have those hurts also Alada. I think that all of us BS will have them. For recovery though, it is our jobs to do our best to not think that way, and instead to take present things at face value and work together to meet each other's needs. Our spouse needs to have a safe environment to be radically honest with us. So long as your H was pleasant in his honesty, the two of you could re-visit that need and POJA about what things you could try to meet that need. Maybe he is just meaning clothing style, or hair style, you see? It may not really mean that he wishes that you were younger.
My H was RH about my clothing and it was also difficult for me to hear. I have my own business and I work all day in t-shirts. We agreed that I would try to stop work early and get nicer clothes on before H gets home from work. Who-HOOO! It worked instantly that he gave me a lot more attention when he got home. Then that went over so well that we went out shopping together for some nice sweaters for me that we both liked. We had *never* shopped together before in 33 years lol. That time was one of the first UA times that I enjoyed in our recovery so far. It was fun!
I guess the only thing I'm missing is his heart...
What was your relationship like when you were dating? How did he behave then? What about him caused you to fall in love with him?
We were in a church group, and we didn't really do much together other than church. We were really involved. For him it was love at first sight, I guess the physcial part is so important to him. I was dating someone else when I met him, so the "hard" part of getting me really turned him on. When we were then dating, I was always smiling, laughing and happy. I was very social. I'm not any of these anymore. I can smile but not laugh out loud, at least not much. I'm not social at all now. He is a social butterfly. He thrives in social settings, I on the other hand feel so much pressure to be around peers.
I have been trying to reach to old friends, to set up a big gathering. I can be social and relax with them, I think, maybe that will help.
15 hours is to MAINTAIN romantic love once it has been restored.
You need 25+ hours each week to restore it!
That is where your focus should be.
That is so true HH, but as I said he is obssesed with work now. If I ask him to come home early he will, but not enthusiastically and eventually he will call it out as a SD. I think we are doing better this week, we have 8 hrs so far. With little kids is hard to schedule 20 hrs or more.
Another caveat is that my older daughther is behaving really strange lately. I asked her and she said she misses his dad. Hubby was a SAHD for almost 3 mos. So DD7 needs also time with his dad.
We ususally have field trips from my work during the weekends, but we are free this and next weekend, I hope I can put more hours into our UA time.
BS you have given me a lot of food for thought, I appreciate you take the time to write to me with so much detail.
I need to sit down and think what you have pointed out. I will get back soon.
BlindS, I found this on your thread
Working on recovery is the hardest thing that I've ever faced. I have to be so vulnerable to the one who hurt me greater than anyone ever has in my life.
.
This is so true, I'm so afraid to be madly in love with hubby and have him so unattached to me. I feel we are reaching that treshold for me, but not for him. I feel so vulnerable and afraid to be hurt again.
15 hours is to MAINTAIN romantic love once it has been restored.
You need 25+ hours each week to restore it!
That is where your focus should be.
That is so true HH, but as I said he is obssesed with work now. If I ask him to come home early he will, but not enthusiastically and eventually he will call it out as a SD. I think we are doing better this week, we have 8 hrs so far. With little kids is hard to schedule 20 hrs or more.
Another caveat is that my older daughther is behaving really strange lately. I asked her and she said she misses his dad. Hubby was a SAHD for almost 3 mos. So DD7 needs also time with his dad.
We ususally have field trips from my work during the weekends, but we are free this and next weekend, I hope I can put more hours into our UA time.
Alada,
This program does not work when UA is not taken seriously.
Dr. Harley has refused to work with people who will not fulfill the UA requirement.
25+ hours a week to create/restore romantic love, and 15 hours a week to maintain it.
Even people who have had recovered marriages for years can tell you that they can
feel when UA is off for just 1 week.
It is critical to your marriage, and more important to your recovery than anything else that has been posted in the past several pages.
If you do not get in your UA time, your marriage will not recover.
If your husband won't commit to UA time, he is not committed to recovery.
UA time is not a selfish demand.
Furthermore, Alada, your UA must be time alone with each other, without your children, without your friends. YOU must feel that you are getting your husband's full attention, otherwise it doesn't "count" as UA time.
Dr. Harley advised me that I will know when I am receiving my husband's undivided attention. What happens is a chemical reaction. Oxytocin is released in the brain (esp of women) when we are feeling that strong connection with our husband.
Dr. Harley advised my husband and I to try hugging and kissing, for a long as it took for me to feel the rush of oxytocin. This was a turning point in our recovery, because I now knew the feeling I was looking for during our UA time.
What I discovered is that we RARELY had true UNDIVIDED ATTENTION during our UA time. Yes, we spent the hours together, doing the planned activities. But it was not really enjoyable for me. And so, I wasn't responding to my husband the way HE wanted, so both of us we getting bored and frustrated. Which made us even less likely to want to have UA time.
I'm so afraid to be madly in love with hubby and have him so unattached to me. I feel we are reaching that treshold for me, but not for him. I feel so vulnerable and afraid to be hurt again.
What are your husband's top EN's?
I'm so afraid to be madly in love with hubby and have him so unattached to me. I feel we are reaching that treshold for me, but not for him. I feel so vulnerable and afraid to be hurt again.
What are your husband's top EN's?
1. Af
2. Ad
3. SF
4. AS
5. HO
15 hours is to MAINTAIN romantic love once it has been restored.
You need 25+ hours each week to restore it!
That is where your focus should be.
That is so true HH, but as I said he is obssesed with work now. If I ask him to come home early he will, but not enthusiastically and eventually he will call it out as a SD. I think we are doing better this week, we have 8 hrs so far. With little kids is hard to schedule 20 hrs or more.
Another caveat is that my older daughther is behaving really strange lately. I asked her and she said she misses his dad. Hubby was a SAHD for almost 3 mos. So DD7 needs also time with his dad.
We ususally have field trips from my work during the weekends, but we are free this and next weekend, I hope I can put more hours into our UA time.
Alada,
This program does not work when UA is not taken seriously.
Dr. Harley has refused to work with people who will not fulfill the UA requirement.
25+ hours a week to create/restore romantic love, and 15 hours a week to maintain it.
Even people who have had recovered marriages for years can tell you that they can
feel when UA is off for just 1 week.
It is critical to your marriage, and more important to your recovery than anything else that has been posted in the past several pages.
If you do not get in your UA time, your marriage will not recover.
If your husband won't commit to UA time, he is not committed to recovery.
UA time is not a selfish demand.
I hear you on this one. We have scheduled a one hour UA today, I will work with hubby on the schedule for the rest of the week.
Today I caught FWH in a lie, I think he is a compulsive liar.
When I got home from work, he told me he had looked up on the web tips on how to stop being and avoider. He elaborated on what he found. He also looked for birth control methods.
Later today he left to get the car and I opened the computer on the history tab. No signs of he searching for any of the above. When he got home, I asked him about it, andhe stated again he did searh, maybe it got deleted from the history. It took me about 10 mins of me asking to get the truthh out of him. He finally admited he did not do the search and he made up the story. His argument is that he wanted me to admire his action. He said he did tought of doing the search but got caught up on a sports web page and forgot about it.
The big issue for me, is that he is still lying, I have no confidence now on his confession. I wrote his confession and got him to check it. He did. I later asked him to write his own confession and he said he did not remember any more and did not want to write a lie...
It's been six weeks since Dday, and I need to get all the truth. I have no access to a polygraph, my only way to make sure he is saying the truth is contacting OW, but I can't trust her either. There is some stuff I know for sure I have the truth, and I was thinking of asking OW her own version of it,to see if it matches and then from there...what am I saying, I feel we are back to square one. Don't know what to do.
Alada do you have spyware on the computer? You've caught him an lie about internet usage and the history was deleted. I would certainly install spyware. His explanation is fairly credible but I just think it's a good idea and would give you an added way to see him earn trust.
As for meeting his PA need, did he get specific about how he wanted you to look younger? Different styles of clothes for example or does he mean something else? You can't act on a vague instruction...
Alada do you have spyware on the computer? You've caught him an lie about internet usage and the history was deleted. I would certainly install spyware. His explanation is fairly credible but I just think it's a good idea and would give you an added way to see him earn trust.
As for meeting his PA need, did he get specific about how he wanted you to look younger? Different styles of clothes for example or does he mean something else? You can't act on a vague instruction...
Indiegirl, he is no longer using the comp without me next to him. But maybe I would do good to get one. He is never alone at home. Either my mom is here, or me.
PA, yes he said hair and clothes. I just need to stop overthinking it. Sometimes in the mornings I get really anxious about him really getting PA from me. As I said he is very unexpressive, so unless I�m wearing something super duper he won�t compliment me.
PA, yes he said hair and clothes. I just need to stop overthinking it. Sometimes in the mornings I get really anxious about him really getting PA from me. As I said he is very unexpressive, so unless I�m wearing something super duper he won�t compliment me.
Here is a good opportunity to use the phrase, "I'd love it if..." For example:
"I'd love it if ... you would let me know when you think I look good."
"I'd love it if ... you would tell me when you think my hairstyle suits me."
"I'd love it if ... you would indicate which of my outfits you prefer."
Make sure you PRAISE HIM when he does this.
It is unlikely that he will magically change into Mr. Expressive. But he CAN let you know when he likes what you are wearing! And this will give you a clue.
What do you think?
We had a great time this past weekend. Our kiddos got sick, so we had no UA time on sunday, but the rest of the week summed up to a total of 21 hours.
I can feel the difference already.
I can feel the difference already.
Wonderful news! You two keep on with it!
How about a UA schedule for this week? Sorry to read that the kiddos were sick yesterday, but did you get a chance to plan out your UA time for this week?
How about a UA schedule for this week? Sorry to read that the kiddos were sick yesterday, but did you get a chance to plan out your UA time for this week?
We usually follow the same schedule for UA time every week, is so much easier. We don't forget and we don't have to plan it either. If we need to, we revise it.
The kidos have activities thru the week, so we just make it a must for both of us to go drop them off, and enjoy some UA time while they are busy. We do have big plans for Vday. We have never ever celebrated it before, not even when dating. It sure will be fun
We usually follow the same schedule for UA time every week, is so much easier. We don't forget and we don't have to plan it either. If we need to, we revise it.
I like this idea. I can see how that could work well, especially since you have three little ones.
Enjoy your special Valentine's Day date!
I'm sending new job applications today. I need to include a teaching statement, and I was wondering if I should include something about the A.
In my phone call to Dr. H. he suggested I did include information about it, but I don't know how to do it, here is what I have so far, can you give me some input
I have had many experiences, both positive and negative with undergraduate students, which have helped me realize my real role in teaching undergraduates. One student was involved in an affair with my husband, this incident thought me a tough lesson not only about my personal life, but about my role as a professor. I have since conducted myself in a more xxx
Sorry, going to edit and reply later.
Ok, my recollection of your call is that Dr. H suggested that you mention the affair to speed the process along, and also to explain your desire to relocate as soon as possible. I did not understand him to suggest that you mention it in your general "sell", ie., what makes you particularly competitive. I also recall that Joyce sounded dubious.
I am a tenured professor and have been involved in lots of hiring. At the culling stage (reviewing paper applications) you want to avoid seeming like an outlier (other than of the "super genius" kind).
I was trying to think of a way to mention it obliquely as a plus (say, "overcoming difficult situations") but it's hard to refer to it without copping to the fact that you had a challenging or bad experience in your current position. Again, that can count against your application.
If you WANT to talk about it, I would wait until the interview stage when you are almost certain to get the "how do you deal with adversity/challenges" question.
But, on a purely professional level, I don't think you need to talk to about it at all.
Thanks Kerala, both for your recollection from the radio show and for the hiring process.
I do remember Joyce being a bit dubious as well. Maybe as you said I should wait until the intervew process .
Was this the only time you've written the Harleys?
I emailed Dr. H about it, this is what I got
Hi Cuau,
All I was suggesting is that if they ask for a reason that you left your last job, simply explain that one of your students had an affair with your husband, who was also a student, You were required to continue teaching that student if you stayed at that University. It was something you could not do, so you had to find a teaching job somewhere else. In the meantime, both you and your husband have established boundaries to prevent that from ever happening again.
Thanks all for your suggestions
This week I have been feeling a disconnection with DH.
We are getting our UA time and we are working on the H&O chapter, a lot has been going on, but I thought we were doing fine.
Our last SF sessions were a bit awkward, and last night DH had technical problems. He was worried it was something physical but I was sensing it was more of a psychological problem. I asked him if something was bothering, he came up with a lot of excuses, which really didn't add up to something this big.
He finally admited he wants to talk to his mom. I totally get it, he is worried about her. But if you remember her sister is in an adulterous relationship and we are NC with her right now. Since she lives with her mother, it means DH doesn't talk to his mom either. DH's mom does not have a cell phone or any other way to get a hold of her, unless we go to her house.
To tell the truth it hurt me to hear this. First, he has been thinking about this for almost two weeks, I can see now why he has been distant with me. He resents me for not seeing his mom.
Now according to the program, I should be glad he told me the truth. And don't get me wrong, I'm glad, actually very happy he had the nerve to tell me what was going on. In fact, after he told me, I said "I know it is hard for you not to talk to your mom, and I'm very thankful that you are taking care of me and my feelings"
BUT!! he has been thinking about this for about two weeks, all the while me asking him how he is doing, and he has never ever mentioned anything. He has not been honest. It's a big trigger for me. He still has the ability to look me into the eye and lie to me.
How do we approach this? Do we need to POJA something about his mom? Do I tell him how much his dishonesty hurts me? Do we just let it go?
His mom does know about DH's A, but she does not know all the details. She does not know why we are not going to her house. Or at least DH choose not to tell her, maybe his sister filled her mom in, but I highly doubt it. DH's mom is enabling the sister's A.
Oh I forgot to add one more detail.
Dh has forgotten his cell phone -with gps tracker that is- everytime he goes to drop the girls to school. His mom leaves a few blocks away from the school
I'm back again with a question, I really hope some of you can help me. Sometimes I feel so lost on the recovery road.
This issue is along with the last one I posted. DH's mom.
When I did exposure, I sent notes to his sister,s but not to her mom. I never talked to her mom. When hubby came back home, he said he told her about his A. SO I just let it go.
Hubby told me a few days ago, that he did told his mom, but he softened the story. I don't know exactly what he told his mom. Last night his mom called, WSIL's boy is having a bday party soon. They are bringing the invitation soon.
I feel conflicted, some part of me, does not want to deal with his family for now. But I also want him to tell the truth to his mom.
I don't know if I even want to talk about what dh did told his mom. It is going to be a trigger, I'm sure. But I also need to encourage him to be honest.
what do you think?
I think you need to tell her, rather than relying on him. Tell her and get it done and over.
Thanks Markos, I do think that will give me some closure.
How do I go about that? Can�t show up at her placer, WSIL is there ALL the time.
Calling her is not an option either. The only means to talk to her is to call WSIL�s cell phone.
I think I figured it out. They are suppose to come drop the invitation to a bday party soon. I will tell MIL then.
Now, do I tell hubby my plans? Or do I just treat it as exposure?
I think I figured it out. They are suppose to come drop the invitation to a bday party soon. I will tell MIL then.
Now, do I tell hubby my plans? Or do I just treat it as exposure?
Is your H onboard with recovery and about your MIL?
BrainHurts, yes he is totally on board with R. The only problem he has about MIL is that we will come back to the A AND we will need to see them, including SIL to tell her the truth.
I would just tell MIL.
Tell her that your H was unfaithful to you and that you hope to rebuild the marriage and make it affair proof.
I would not include H in the plan to expose properly to his mother.
If he gets angry, he is not serious about being a better husband to you.
Done, MIL actually didn't know anything about the A. Now she does.
H can't stop himself from lying. Not for his own life. I'm getting really tired of his half efforts. I can feel my LB$ going way down.
Can he still be in the fog?
I'm sorry, Alada. Good for you for telling your MIL.
I remember reading someplace in Dr. Harley's info that it could take up to six months for all of the fog to clear.
My H had his share of mess ups, if you read back a few pages in my thread, you will see them. Our last D-days were almost the same time Alada.
It took us a long while Alada to get rid of all of those old NON-marriage-friendly habits. Independent behavior and the totally stupid lies. And I had to learn to ask respectfully for what I needed (rather than sacrifice during POJA because it was "easier" at the time).
We both memorized 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 and then each day we would go through it and share one thing that we noticed that our spouse was doing for EACH verse. So for instance "Love is Patient", and H would usually tell me how he noticed that I was patient with him in explaining how I liked affection. Etc. We would go down the list like that, and I really REALLY think that it helped my H to start to re-focus on being an honest person, kwim? And it helped me to learn to expect to be treated like a treasure.
I've said before in my thread that I think that there are layers and layers to recovery Alada. But it all boils down to those EPs and getting rid of LB'ers (IB and not being Open and Honest were obviously my H's biggies also), and then working to build that LB balance.
How is your H doing with the EPs?
How is the online program going?
Thanks BlindSighted, it's really conforting to read your words.
As far as EP's, he had one major slip a few days ago. He called me to tell me he was at the bank, he took one lady to the bank a co-worker. I guess he didn't register he was breaking an EP, and it took me three seconds to figure it out. I texted him.
ME: "You aware you broke one of our EP's"
He: "She brought her grandson"
Me: "Show me"
He dropped it there. He was ashamed to take a pictures of the kids, or so he says. Now I don't whether he was lying or not.
We will read Corinthians tonight.
Oh my Alada, let's see what other more experienced MB'ers say about that, but I think that you had the right to tell your H to either send you a picture of the child to PROVE it to you, or don't come home. You have the right to be TOTALLY safe, that's what EPs are for, and if you do not feel safe then you cannot recover.
You can't go back and change the outcome now, so hopefully others will chime in their thoughts here.
Hugs to you!!
Alada, I'm thinking more about this, and I think that you and H need to make your EP's a bit clearer.
Pardon if this is obvious, but it was not obvious to me (remember I'm the one who needed Melodylane to point out to me that I may need to follow H into the restroom lol)�.I trusted WAY too much obviously.
So now, if H is going to ever go ANY place besides work and home (with the GPS tracker on at all times), he calls me first and says "what would you think of ______?". If I'm not comfy for any reason, or even if he catches me off guard while I'm in the middle of work and can't think right then, I get to say "I'm not comfortable with that", and then it's instant POJA. We either resolve it fast or it's no go (if I'm in the middle of work). THAT is what has kept me feeling safe for the last few months.
H messed up once and made a five minute stop at HomeDepot without calling first, and it send me on a tail spin.
Your H shouldn't be going to the bank or anywhere with a woman friend from work (even WITH a grandchild!) without calling you first. Either you two previously set up boundaries and he ignored them OR he isn't (yet!) realizing how serious this situation is.
Dr. H had a radio show recently where he reiterated that if we could FEEL our spouse's pain when we do something that hurts them, we would be correcting our behavior in a heartbeat in order to avoid feeling that pain.
What was to happen if he broke an EP?
BrainHurts, we didn't really said what would happen if he broke our EP's. At the begining I was very sloppy on our recovery
BlindSighted, yes it is not obvious to me, or to him. I trust to much in him and I need to stop that.
We revised EP's last night, and we talked about how these are a way to protect me, him and our family.
He will carry a VAR or some sort of recording device with him all the time.
If he breaks any of the EP's (again?) he will quit his work.
One of his main triggers for lying is peer pressure, he just wants to look good to others. He understands it, but can't control it. He keeps lying, at least twice a day, mainly to people from his job, again just to look good. WE are finally realizing how common his lies are, we are working on that. I noticed a long time ago about his lies, even pre-A but I got used to them and thought they were innocent little lies. So it is a very strong habit for him to lie and for me, to brush them off. WE are BOTH working on this.
We've been thinking about getting a business together and moving far far away, but our financial situation does not allow it yet. Specially with three little ones.
I'm still applying for jobs, today I'm submiting one more application, but if this process takes to long, I'm just thinking of dropping academia altogether.
Have you read this about the different kind of liars?
Honesty and Openness (Part 2) Also here's a clip on the different kind of liars.
Radio Clip on the Different Kind of Liars
No I havent seen those, thanks for pointing them out BrainHurts!
No I havent seen those, thanks for pointing them out BrainHurts!
You're welcome.
What did you think about them?
Isn't it amazing how Dr. H has just the right answers. One could feel so lost, and yet he has all these concise and doable plans to overcome problems.
We started the program with the Honesty and Openess chapter, but what you pointed out here is very helpful. I was feeling conflicted about him telling me truths and not getting any consecuences, but I can totally get why consecuences are not appropiate right now.
I need to work on that, I'm guilty of AO in the past, they are so much sporadic right now. I need to control those further to encourage honesty from him.
thanks BrainHurts!!
Isn't it amazing how Dr. H has just the right answers. One could feel so lost, and yet he has all these concise and doable plans to overcome problems.
We started the program with the Honesty and Openess chapter, but what you pointed out here is very helpful. I was feeling conflicted about him telling me truths and not getting any consecuences, but I can totally get why consecuences are not appropiate right now.
I need to work on that, I'm guilty of AO in the past, they are so much sporadic right now. I need to control those further to encourage honesty from him.
thanks BrainHurts!!
I'm so glad to help, my friend. Dr. Harley has a way to explain things so clearly.
DH broke another EP yesterday and I had an AO. We had a terrible night.
DH drove right in front of the campus yesterday. He called to inform me, I told him I didn't feel at ease with him doing this. He went ahead and did it regardless.
We discussed it at night. He was very adamant to the idea that it was work related, he didn't do it with the purpose of seeing OW, or so he says. He came to make an installation two blocks away from campus and stayed there for almost two hours.
We talked for nearly an hour about this, but he just kept saying he was sorry but this was not such a big deal. After talking for all this time, I finally lost it and had an AO, I was able to control myself after a few minutes, but it was too late. It was mainly crying and raising my voice, not cursing or anything, but still I feel terrible.
It is the second time he breaks an EP.
What does your MB coach say? Have you contacted them?
We do not have a coach, we are only doing the workbooks, books and videos.
DH broke another EP yesterday and I had an AO. We had a terrible night.
DH drove right in front of the campus yesterday. He called to inform me, I told him I didn't feel at ease with him doing this. He went ahead and did it regardless.
We discussed it at night. He was very adamant to the idea that it was work related, he didn't do it with the purpose of seeing OW, or so he says. He came to make an installation two blocks away from campus and stayed there for almost two hours.
We talked for nearly an hour about this, but he just kept saying he was sorry but this was not such a big deal. After talking for all this time, I finally lost it and had an AO, I was able to control myself after a few minutes, but it was too late. It was mainly crying and raising my voice, not cursing or anything, but still I feel terrible.
It is the second time he breaks an EP.
I think the problem is that he doesn't quite get that EPs are not only to prevent another A, but they are also there to put you at ease. It's the "ease your mind" part that he is missing.
I was supossed to be at ease with his call. His words.
I was supossed to be at ease with his call. His words.
Did you tell him you weren't?
What are you doing to get your AOs under control?
Any progress on moving?
I was supossed to be at ease with his call. His words.
He doesn't get to define the EPs and what "should" put you at ease though. The solution is not to try to change your reaction to something he is doing, no matter what it is. EP or not. He should simply not do it. Most things you can POJA on, but EPs after an A are not negotiable.
Of course, he has to willingly agree to follow them and then, well, follow them!
That said, your long conversation and eventual AO was ultimately an attempt at control on your part. You are trying to force him to care for you, and that won't work. All you can do is lay your EPs out there, let him know when he violates one (with respect), and if he continues to break them, remove yourself from the relationship with a separation.
Remember that SDs lead to DJs, and DJs lead to AOs. When it comes to EPs, demands are OK. Just don't go further than that. No DJs and no AOs.
But be firm on your EPs. They are what they are. You don't have to have long conversations about them. They are for your emotional protection. He either follows them or you separate from him. Those are your two choices.
Did you tell him you weren't?
What are you doing to get your AOs under control?
Any progress on moving?
Yes, I did tell him I was not at ease.
I'm starting the chapter on AO's tonight. I was waiting to do it together, but we are stuck in another chapter.
Yes moving... I've been applying to different places, and have no answer, we talked about moving and starting a business together if I don't find something soon.
That said, your long conversation and eventual AO was ultimately an attempt at control on your part. You are trying to force him to care for you, and that won't work. All you can do is lay your EPs out there, let him know when he violates one (with respect), and if he continues to break them, remove yourself from the relationship with a separation.
Yes I get it, I find it extremely painful to see that I have to make him care for me, and I get frustrated. I have to work on myself about this.
That said, your long conversation and eventual AO was ultimately an attempt at control on your part. You are trying to force him to care for you, and that won't work. All you can do is lay your EPs out there, let him know when he violates one (with respect), and if he continues to break them, remove yourself from the relationship with a separation.
Yes I get it, I find it extremely painful to see that I have to make him care for me, and I get frustrated. I have to work on myself about this.
It is concerning that he still isn't putting extraordinary care for you.
How are you? Are you on ADs?
Have you emailed Dr Harley recently?
It is concerning that he still isn't putting extraordinary care for you.
How are you? Are you on ADs?
Have you emailed Dr Harley recently?
Not on AD's
I have emailed Dr. H. actually, not about this particular issue.
How would separation look like right now? What would be the requirements for him to come back? Would it be plan B?
I have to make him care for me...
No. You don't.
And you can't.
What you CAN do is hep him work on building habits that demonstrate care. Him FEELING care isn't as important as DEMONSTRATING care in his actions.
Make sense?
Focus on the ACTIONS, not his thoughts or feelings about them. Focus on him learning to act within POJA. When his ACTIONS demonstrate care and protection, then YOU will feel cared for and protected.
I would email Dr. Harley.
Since he isn't in an active affair, but still acting wayward then yes it would be Plan B.
I'm very concerned for your health, because you seem depressed. Which is totally understandable since he's still acting wayward. How are you eating, sleeping, exercising?
Would he be willing to be on the show with you, to talk with Dr. Harley?
HHH do you mean I have to tell him exactly what to do. Like, you don't have to drive by campus. Forgive me if I sound harsh or naive, but I'm genuinely confused. I'm afraid to be doing something wrong.
BH,thanks for your concern. I just emailed Dr. H, asking about separation.
BH,thanks for your concern. I just emailed Dr. H, asking about separation.
Let us know what he says.
How are you eating and sleeping?
Hi Alada, I'm sorry to read this.
Like FTF said, EPs are to help you to feel safe as well as to protect your M from another A.
YOU design the EPs for what you absolutely must have in order to feel safe enough to stay in the M and work towards recovery. EPs are not negotiable. Your H doesn't get to discuss and negotiate why it is "okay" if he breaks them.
For instance, YOU can look at a map and design a circumference area plotted out that he is not allowed to drive within. Write it down and give him a copy. Also list that if he breaks it, thus and such will happen.
YES, you have to tell him exactly what is expected of him as far as EPs go. EPs are demands yes (but no DJs or AOs about them�they just ARE what he must do in order for you to stay in the M).
As far as him learning to care for you, that can be within POJA (no demands). You two CAN negotiate for what each of you need for that. And unless there is enthusiastic agreement, then it's a no go.
But it doesn't work like that for EPs. EPs are non-negotiable.
Bh, yes I'm taking good care of myself. I'm still nursing and I understand my baby needs me complete right now.
BS, is always nice to read your words, thanks for stopping by and reassure me about EP's
I'm still awaiting Dr. H's response, will get back to you all.
HHH do you mean I have to tell him exactly what to do. Like, you don't have to drive by campus. Forgive me if I sound harsh or naive, but I'm genuinely confused. I'm afraid to be doing something wrong.
BH,thanks for your concern. I just emailed Dr. H, asking about separation.
Yes. But not with a long conversation that ends with an angry outburst.
Instead, it's much shorter; "I don't feel safe when you drive by campus."
His thoughts or feelings beyond that are irrelevant. His action is what is required.
Have you heard back from the Harleys? If not, notify the MODS and they will relay the message.
I think they are discussing it in today's show. Will let you know if they do it.
I think they are discussing it in today's show. Will let you know if they do it.
They discussed this yesterday I am pretty sure. If you listen to the rebroadcast RIGHT NOW it should be on there. It won't be there in 40 mnutes because the new show will be uploaded.
Are you supporting your H? And does he watch the kids?
Oh really!! Let me run the rebroadcast. thanks for the headsup
Yes I am supporting my H, he is working part time a sales job and is not making much, if at all.
What do you mean watching the kids? He works from 11 to 4. I get home around 3pm. So no, he is rarely alone with the kids.
It is too late to hear it now because todays show will have been uploaded. I think the assumption from reading your email [if this was you]is that you support your husband therefore, he must be home watching the children. unfortunately, you won't be able to listen until the shows are uploaded into the archives.
hmm I wonder though, in my email I let them know about him "driving by campus' to do an installation, I never implied I support him. I will email Joyce and ask her about it.
I did not got an email about my question being on the show, so I wonder.
thanks!
Alada, and perhaps it wasn't your email at all!! There were several similarities in your situation that made me think it was yours. The presenting problem was that the WS keeps breaking EPs.
Bummer, I do think it was mine. I will wait for the archives then... Do you know how long it takes to show up on the archives?
I found this one that brainhurts posted
breaking ep's Basically they are just saying Plan B. Correct?
They suggested Plan B and divorce. He said he doesn't believe the marriage will work out.
I guess it makes sense. Justo now we are supposed to be having our ua but he's working.
Getting ready for plan B.
I need an IM. Where do I send her for instructions?
What would be my requirements forma him yo come back? I was thinking of having him work some chapters con hnhn. What do you think?
I would listen to Dr Harley's radio clip. I think the intent is to not invite him back, but to get divorced.
Thanks melody. I will wait for it to be available
Usually Joyce will respond saying that your question was read on the air. I would write them again to verify.
The archives are about 19 days behind so I will post your show when it comes up.
Also since it sounds like it may be your question here you go.
How to Plan B Correctly Then email your IM the "IM training school" thread to your IM.
Thanks BH for the link.
And yes, I never got an email from Joyce, unless it went on the spam folder, which I doubt because I looked in there too. I emailed her again yesterday asking if my question was on the radio. Haven't heard back, will tray again today.
I heard the show and I didn't get the impression it was your question, but I could be wrong. Weren't they talking about a husband that kept texting other women? Or are we talking about another emailer?
Thanks FTF, I'm just now confused.
I will wait to hear from Joyce. I have been emailing her the last few weeks. I wonder if she is getting my emails. I emailed her monday, tuesday and today and have not heard back from her.
I've been thinking about H posting here. Has anyone else used a translator to post here? Do you think it would work?
Hi Alada, Good idea! Can you teach your husband to copy and paste to an online translator before posting? And then teach him to copy and paste that translation here?
I know that online translators are not perfect, but they come close. And you could even teach him to always make his first sentence be something like "pardon any grammar errors, I am using an online translator to post".
I have used online Spanish-English-Spanish translators for lots of correspondence. Of course, it is not perfect, but gets the idea across well enough.
I like BlindSighted's idea of the disclaimer.
Thanks FTF, I'm just now confused.
I will wait to hear from Joyce. I have been emailing her the last few weeks. I wonder if she is getting my emails. I emailed her monday, tuesday and today and have not heard back from her.
That's not like her. Did you notify the MODS so they can pass on the message?
I only caught the end of it on the rebroadcast, but I am pretty sure they were discussing your email today, they talked about the breaking of EPs and your WH bringing the woman to the bank.
Did you hear it?
NO!! I'm running the rebroadcast right now.
I didn't get a chance to run the re broadcast bt H saved it for me. I will listen to it tonight.
In another note, H quit his job. It was simply not working for us. Not for UA time, not for EP's. He is now home, we will think about activities for him to do like baking cakes and seling them or something. He actually loves baking!! and is prety excited!!
Well, that was a proactive step!
I didn't get a chance to run the re broadcast bt H saved it for me. I will listen to it tonight.
In another note, H quit his job. It was simply not working for us. Not for UA time, not for EP's. He is now home, we will think about activities for him to do like baking cakes and seling them or something. He actually loves baking!! and is prety excited!!
Alada,
Please let us know when you've heard Dr. Harley's advice. Did your H listen to it? What did he think?
In another note, H quit his job. It was simply not working for us. Not for UA time, not for EP's. He is now home, we will think about activities for him to do like baking cakes and seling them or something. He actually loves baking!! and is prety excited!!
This sounds like great news Alada! I'm happy for the both of you and will be anxious to hear how things feel for you once you are getting all of your UA time together.
Thanks BH!!! I just had a chance to listen to it right now.
I will talk to H this evening.
Thanks BH!!! I just had a chance to listen to it right now.
I will talk to H this evening.
You're welcome.
What did he say?
I finally had time to sit down to listen to the show (thanks Brain Hurts!!) and I explained the show to my husband.
We talked last night.
He was not surprised, I mean, he expected Dr. H. to recomend separation given that he broke our EP's. He is now aware how important EP's are. He asked me if I still wanted to go for a separation, and I asked him back, what do you think??
In his favor, he quit his job, he is now reading Kiss's thread and is being so much proactive about our recovery. To me it looks like we are on the mend.
It's amazing how much reading here can help him. He is reading the translation of Kiss's thread, translations are really tricky, but still, he can see himself in kiss's attitude.
So I guess for now we are still on recovery, no plan B. But he is now fully aware, as I am, that any other deviation of the recovery will make us go to plan B.
Hi alada, is there a reason he is reading kiss' thread? I would have referred him to solutions, not to someone who is struggling with recovery. There are no solutions in kiss's thread.
He should be reading Dr. Harley's materials about how to effect recovery. Does he have Surviving an Affair?
Did you make one of your conditions to work on recovery to post here? We have some really good BS meters here and if he isn't serious about recovery (like kiss isn't) then posters will sniff it out.
Will he post here?
ML, I sent him to kiss's thread because I saw a lot of resemblance on him, I thought that may be he would take the words others were saying. You don't think that is a good idea?
He is reading now what HerPapaBear is telling kiss, and to me it looks like is working. He just told me last night, how selfish he has been.
BH, I tried doing the translation to see if they worked, but google is not good at all, specially when you are trying to convey something with a lot of details or feelings. So I'm not confident on him using the translator. I do not want to translate for him, I don't think is appropiate.
I guess he can try posting and see how it goes.
ML, I sent him to kiss's thread because I saw a lot of resemblance on him, I thought that may be he would take the words others were saying. You don't think that is a good idea?
He is reading now what HerPapaBear is telling kiss, and to me it looks like is working. He just told me last night, how selfish he has been.
BH, I tried doing the translation to see if they worked, but google is not good at all, specially when you are trying to convey something with a lot of details or feelings. So I'm not confident on him using the translator. I do not want to translate for him, I don't think is appropiate.
I guess he can try posting and see how it goes.
alada, I am very confused why you would send him to the thread of someone who has NOT RECOVERED. The blind cannot lead the blind. Kiss has not resolved his marriage problems. People don't recover by following people who have not recovered. They recover by seeking solutions and seeking out people who HAVE recovered.
kiss does not have solutions. Dr Harley DOES.
ML, I sent him to kiss's thread because I saw a lot of resemblance on him, I thought that may be he would take the words others were saying. You don't think that is a good idea?
He is reading now what HerPapaBear is telling kiss, and to me it looks like is working. He just told me last night, how selfish he has been.
BH, I tried doing the translation to see if they worked, but google is not good at all, specially when you are trying to convey something with a lot of details or feelings. So I'm not confident on him using the translator. I do not want to translate for him, I don't think is appropiate.
I guess he can try posting and see how it goes.
So he can read English, but not write is that correct?
We have pretty intelligent posters and I'm sure we can understand him. I agree you shouldn't post for him.
Is there anyone you do trust that he could send the posts to and they translate for him?
What is his native language?
He is reading now what HerPapaBear is telling kiss, and to me it looks like is working. He just told me last night, how selfish he has been.
Every wayward knows how to say that. It is just empty talk. I would not focus on his empty words, but on his actions.
I am also concerned that he is not working?? Dr Harley strongly recommends that men have a job because they are "dangerous" sitting at home with nothing to do. What are his career goals?
kiss does not have solutions. Dr Harley DOES.
I get it now ML, I see what you are saying. I will suggest he reads some materials instead.
I guess I like the feeling of reading someone else going through the exact same path, but as you say, they should be recovered.
So he can read English, but not write is that correct?
No, not really. Can not read or write english
We have pretty intelligent posters and I'm sure we can understand him. I agree you shouldn't post for him.
Is there anyone you do trust that he could send the posts to and they translate for him?
What is his native language?
We will give it a try then!!
I am also concerned that he is not working?? Dr Harley strongly recommends that men have a job because they are "dangerous" sitting at home with nothing to do. What are his career goals?
He wanted to be a vet, but that is out of the picture for now. He also wanted to be a chef. The plans right now is for him to start baking at home and sell his products at cafeterias and what not. He did his first round of cookies for us this weekend. We have plans to do sample deliveries this weekend.
kiss does not have solutions. Dr Harley DOES.
I get it now ML, I see what you are saying. I will suggest he reads some materials instead.
I guess I like the feeling of reading someone else going through the exact same path, but as you say, they should be recovered.
We have lots of RECOVERED posters for him to read. What about SAA? Have you read this to him?
What is his native language?
We have lots of RECOVERED posters for him to read. What about SAA? Have you read this to him?
You mean surviving an affair, not specifically. I have read a lot of materials here and we usually talk about those in the evening. We have shared a lot about the steps on how to recover and EP's. But I get a feeling that me saying the same things over and over, are not really having an effect on him. That is why I wanted him to read what other people had to say.
Maybe you can point me to someone else's thread.
So you read the material to him in his language? Which is what?
Here's a good one
GloveOil's Thread It was an Ordinary Day Here Do you have the book SAA? I would also start with that.
So you read the material to him in his language? Which is what?
Sorry, it is spanish
No I don't, we have love busters and hnhn and we are working on them right now. It was a bit of a stretch -money wise- to get those.
thanks for the link!
kiss does not have solutions. Dr Harley DOES.
I get it now ML, I see what you are saying. I will suggest he reads some materials instead.
I guess I like the feeling of reading someone else going through the exact same path, but as you say, they should be recovered.
I agree that is a good idea...................IF the person has taken a path to recovery. But he should not follow someone who can lead him into the DITCH.
We have lots of RECOVERED posters for him to read. What about SAA? Have you read this to him?
You mean surviving an affair, not specifically. I have read a lot of materials here and we usually talk about those in the evening. We have shared a lot about the steps on how to recover and EP's. But I get a feeling that me saying the same things over and over, are not really having an effect on him. That is why I wanted him to read what other people had to say.
Maybe you can point me to someone else's thread.
Have him read Surviving an Affair. He needs ot be reading the material here, not other peoples threads. You can't recover a marriage that way.
Thanks ML, we will look into getting SAA tonight.
I am also concerned that he is not working?? Dr Harley strongly recommends that men have a job because they are "dangerous" sitting at home with nothing to do. What are his career goals?
He wanted to be a vet, but that is out of the picture for now. He also wanted to be a chef. The plans right now is for him to start baking at home and sell his products at cafeterias and what not. He did his first round of cookies for us this weekend. We have plans to do sample deliveries this weekend.
Dr Harley made the point that "idle hands are the devil's workshop" when it comes to men. How about an occupation that will complement your marriage while still holding him accountable?
If he stays home and bakes cookies and goes around and sells them, that seems to me to be a set up for a nice little secret second life.
What kind of 9 to 5 job could he get that would be safe for your marriage?
My girlfriend does this for a living. 95% of her customers are female and she gets a few hours in the afternoon to play on Facebook. Sounds like a very poor idea for a wayward husband indeed.
Your husband needs to be out earning a good living at a job that is structured, which complements your marriage.
Hi Alada, do you have a tablet of any kind that you could download SAA from Amazon? It is cheaper that way.
I feel uneasy about him getting a job. Why?? I don't know.
He has worked before 9-5 jobs. When we moved back to our country, he stayed home caring for our little girl, until he went to college.
I guess I don't think we can get our UA time if he does work 9-5. Usually we start dinner and putting the big girls to bed around 7:30. The babe doesn't go down until 10pm. So that will leave us 1 hr during weekdays for UA time.
Also, sometimes I have field work, and he comes with me. We leave friday mornings. If he has a job, he will not be able to come with me.
I thought of the clients being mostly woman as well, and we decided we'll do the deliveries/sales together.
Blindsighted, I do not have a tablet.
I wouldn't schedule your UA time at home anyway. That is not quality UA time. Are you reading the Marriage Builders books, Alada?
I would just point out that staying home like he does is not good for your marriage. He should be earning money at a job that is good for your marriage. Staying home like he does gives him all day to hook up with chicks.
Please take the time to read the material so you understand the program. The program can't be learned by reading the forum alone.
I wouldn't schedule your UA time at home anyway. That is not quality UA time. Are you reading the Marriage Builders books, Alada?
Please take the time to read the material so you understand the program. The program can't be learned by reading the forum alone.
Yes we are both reading HNHN and Love Busters.
Right now are spending 95% of our UA time away from home.
I would just point out that staying home like he does is not good for your marriage. He should be earning money at a job that is good for your marriage. Staying home like he does gives him all day to hook up with chicks.
Why would that be, I'm genuinely asking. Why a SAHD is more prone to an A?
As far as I know he is prety busy all morning. He is not alone, the babe is there, and I have spyware on the computer and his cell phone.
I do get that he needs to be making money, but I was thinking of waiting on that until our marriage is more robust.
I wouldn't schedule your UA time at home anyway. That is not quality UA time. Are you reading the Marriage Builders books, Alada?
Please take the time to read the material so you understand the program. The program can't be learned by reading the forum alone.
Yes we are both reading HNHN and Love Busters.
Right now are spending 95% of our UA time away from home.
Ok, but you just said that you spend your UA during the week at home. I don't understand. The book you need to read is SAA.
I guess I don't think we can get our UA time if he does work 9-5. Usually we start dinner and putting the big girls to bed around 7:30. The babe doesn't go down until 10pm. So that will leave us 1 hr during weekdays for UA time.
Melody, I was talking in the case he went for a 9-5 job. Right now we are getting our UA time, from 5-7 on weekdays
I would just point out that staying home like he does is not good for your marriage. He should be earning money at a job that is good for your marriage. Staying home like he does gives him all day to hook up with chicks.
Why would that be, I'm genuinely asking. Why a SAHD is more prone to an A?
As far as I know he is prety busy all morning. He is not alone, the babe is there, and I have spyware on the computer and his cell phone.
I do get that he needs to be making money, but I was thinking of waiting on that until our marriage is more robust.
That leaves him open to pursue affairs while he is home all day. Even the dumbest wayward knows how to get around spyware. The baby is not an impediment to an affair. Like Dr Harley says, men need to have a job to have them occupied.
I guess I don't think we can get our UA time if he does work 9-5. Usually we start dinner and putting the big girls to bed around 7:30. The babe doesn't go down until 10pm. So that will leave us 1 hr during weekdays for UA time.
Melody, I was talking in the case he went for a 9-5 job. Right now we are getting our UA time, from 5-7 on weekdays
So you can go from 5:30 to 8:30.
Another reason Dr Harley recommends that men work is because they derive their happiness from their occupation. If he has no viable occupation, he will be getting himself into trouble by seeking self destructive thrills. He has a history of inappropriate behavior with women, so he is perfectly free to do that all day.
OK Melody, we will talk tonight and start the job hunt. Thanks for taking the time to explain
OK Melody, we will talk tonight and start the job hunt. Thanks for taking the time to explain
The key is to find an occupation that will complement your marriage. That means staying away from jobs that are female dominant.
We talked last night.
H agreed that he will be happier to find a job outside the house, but he wants to find something that will make us both feel at peace.We both think, it is going to be tricky to find such a job, but we pray that we find it soon.
He had not realized the baking will give him mostly women clients, and he is not confortable with that now, even if I do join him to do the sales/deliveries.
As far as SAA, we will wait until next paycheck to get that. But I recall someone in another thread saying that reading SAA once the A is over and in the past is not always a good idea. We have not talked about the A in a while, and I feel that reading it right now will evoke feelings. What are your thoughts on this?
We talked last night.
H agreed that he will be happier to find a job outside the house, but he wants to find something that will make us both feel at peace.We both think, it is going to be tricky to find such a job, but we pray that we find it soon.
He had not realized the baking will give him mostly women clients, and he is not confortable with that now, even if I do join him to do the sales/deliveries.
As far as SAA, we will wait until next paycheck to get that. But I recall someone in another thread saying that reading SAA once the A is over and in the past is not always a good idea. We have not talked about the A in a while, and I feel that reading it right now will evoke feelings. What are your thoughts on this?
Reading SAA is an excellent idea. Please have you and your WH read it ASAP.
That's good that you are POJAing a job. What kind of jobs would you be enthusiastic about that is all male?
We read SAA out loud together again after the fact Alada.
Yes it evoked feelings, but it also evoked a ton of discussion, so I would say that it was necessary. Plus it helped me to firm up my resolve to raise that bar ever higher.
thanks for your insight BS
Dr. Harley recommends it all the time on the radio show. Even in His Needs Her Needs he has a chapter on how to survive an Affair and how devastating an affair is.
Your husband needs to be educated on how to avoid affairs and how to live with boundaries and EPs.
I was looking at used copies of SAA, but they don't seem to be the last edition. Are there substantial changes in the new edition?
Just ordered SAA right now!
Just ordered SAA right now!
Good and yes the new revision has some changes, so I'm glad you bought the new one.
Happy bday Brainy!!!
We are still waiting for SAA, hopefully tomorrow we can stop by my sisters and see if it's there.
H has been baking and selling in places where there's only men. Of course that's not a lot, so I think we are going to start looking for another job more persistently. We've been looking at warehouses and places like so, but nothing yet.
He's been also reading articles here at MB.
I've been dealing with health issues and even when we are getting our UA time, is hard to go outside. It definitely makes a difference. Do you have any suggestions to do something fun at home??
thanks for checking on me
Good morning, today I will use the google translator to test how it works . My husband is not convinced of the translations , so that has been used when the forum is not very good, and decided to use it today .
�Yesterday was Easter , my husband decided to talk to her mom . If you remember your sister is a lover, with two children , and decided not to talk more . Since December has almost not going home. Yesterday, my husband insisted I would speak to him , I felt guilty for being Easter and for not having visited. Well the call was not good.
�Basically you claim because her mother was not going to visit. I had him kidnapped. My husband and I explain that reminded him we were not going , but she said she was still taking the mother, and that ought to visit . Anyway , changing the subject and finally talked about other things. But now my husband feels bad and guilty for what his mom said . Understand that we can not go, I talked last night, but can not shake that feeling.
�My mother wants to talk to me , I guess I do not have to tell me because kidnap , and my husband still has a responsibility to his mom .
I do not think that the translator works very well , I'll have to re- write it in English
Thanks for bearing with me, before I do write the story in english, tell me what do you think? I feel it the translation really messed up the idea, but let me know if you kind of get it.
This is the re written story
Being easter, I had H call his mom. I felt guilty because it was easter and we didn't visit her. We have not being at her place since december.
Just a quick note, her sister is a misstress with two boys of a married man. We are NC with them.
The call didn't go well.
Her mom basically asked him if he was kidnapped by me (lol). Asked him whyy he hasn't visited her, had you forgotten you have a mother! Your wife shouldn't put conditions to you. Your mom is sick, you should tend to her. And so on...
H managed to change to subject. But when he hung up, he felt bad. He was mad and sad for his mom and his W-sister.
I don't know how to help him with this. MIL said she wanted to talk to me, so I can give up on the kidnapping. I can only imagine what the talk will go like. Not a good idea.
They have come to our place before, in fact a few weeks ago they were here. But I don't know is a good idea anymore.
I know many of you have NC with their toxic family, would this be our next step here?
Many of us have had to go NC with unhealthy relatives, especially wayward relatives.
I would POJA this with your H. Does his mom know why you don't talk with his sister?
Is it his mom that you don't want to talk to because she makes him feel guilty? Has he straight up told his mom that you are HIS family now?
Does his mom know why you don't talk with his sister?
Yes, she knows. I told her we are not going becuase of her sister. But she doesn't think we have the right reasons for not going.
Is it his mom that you don't want to talk to because she makes him feel guilty? Has he straight up told his mom that you are HIS family now?
No he hasn't and I hihgly doubt he would be entusiastic about telling her that. MIL is a widow, diabetic and the two sisters that live with her do not get along very well. Is a highly disfunctional family. H feels he needs to help her, HE thinks she is his responsability.
Hi guys, i need some help with ideas for ua time.
I'm on bed rest I had a miscarriage. I'm finding hard to have quality time. No RC, no SF nor physycal attractivenes which are my H ENs.
Any ideas??
I'm so sorry.
I hope you recovery and feel better soon
Hi guys, i need some help with ideas for ua time.
I'm on bed rest I had a miscarriage. I'm finding hard to have quality time. No RC, no SF nor physycal attractivenes which are my H ENs.
Any ideas??
Since you are stuck in the bed, how about reading a book or finding a good website on a subject that he is really interested in but you don't know as much about. Then engage him in questions / conversation about it. He might become very talkative! Just an idea.
UA time while in bed?
Do either of you play board games or card games?
Hi guys, i need some help with ideas for ua time.
I'm on bed rest I had a miscarriage. I'm finding hard to have quality time. No RC, no SF nor physycal attractivenes which are my H ENs.
Any ideas??
Alada, I'm so sorry to hear this sad news.
Dr Harley wouldn't expect a spouse who is ill to be able to meet ENs, and he wouldn't consider being physically unable to do so neglectful. He would expect the healthy spouse to care for the ill spouse and forego the meeting of his ENs for the time being. The healthy spouse needs to keep his boundaries high and guard against an affair.
He has written about spouses who become disabled or mentally infirm. He expects them to be cared for. In sickness and in health, and all that.
Hi guys, i need some help with ideas for ua time.
I'm on bed rest I had a miscarriage. I'm finding hard to have quality time. No RC, no SF nor physycal attractivenes which are my H ENs.
Any ideas??
So sorry, Alada! Your husband needs to take great care of you while you are bedridden.
That is the answer. You don't need to worry about him.
Hi guys, i need some help with ideas for ua time.
I'm on bed rest I had a miscarriage. I'm finding hard to have quality time. No RC, no SF nor physycal attractivenes which are my H ENs.
Any ideas??
So sorry, Alada! Your husband needs to take great care of you while you are bedridden.
That is the answer. You don't need to worry about him.
Exactly!!!
Is he taking care of you?
Take care, my friend. I'm so sorry for your loss. You're in my thoughts and prayers.
Thank you all for your words and concern.
He is taking care of me and the girls. He is great at it.
He is really busy running the house and keeping up with me. But I feel the need of our ua time.
Hi guys, I have a few questions for you all.
First I want to say that I spent most of my bedrest reading queenie thread. What an inspiration. We also started SAA and everytime I turn the page I think of you guys and just want to say thank you, it is helping us both a lot.
After the miscariage and SAA H has been so much closer to me. Our talks are much more open, honest and connected. You know, like a husband and a wife!
On the job hunt, we have no news. Actually H had an interview yesterday, it was for a realtor. H is good with words and I'm sure he would do a great job. BUT I know is just not the right job for FWW. He was so excited, and I didn't want to burst his buble, but after we read SAA he asked me what I thought of the job. I really didn't want to say anything, but he noticed I was uneasy about the job. I told him I was a bit hesitant.
He said if you are not confortable I wont take it.
It's been three weeks since we started the job hunt. He is getting frustrated and I want to help him. Do you have any suggestions? Finding a job for a FWW is hard!!!
When discussing job opportunities, always be sure to be radically honest about your feelings, even if you think he'll be disappointed in your reaction. He may be unhappy about not taking the job, but it's better than if you are unhappy because he did take the job you are reluctant about.
You're both still kind of new at this, but don't put him in the position of having to "read" your reactions. Be very honest. If you don't like that particular job, just say so. You don't even have to have a reason, other than the fact that there's something about it that makes you uncomfortable.
Your H will need to be persistent about looking for a job. It takes longer, sometimes much longer, than three weeks to find a good job. He should find a job where he doesn't travel and has the ability to be completely transparent. I recommend a job where he doesn't work closely with women.
Hi all,
I think I'm hitting a wall and I need your help.
Our R is well on his way. We have both being working on SAA and upping our UA time. We have a trip this weekend and we are POJA'ing about it becuase it will cause problems with our UA time.
The thing, is that I'm here secondguessing much of what I have done. I kind of realized that I didn't Plan A or Plan B. I sure did exposure, although it was not nucelar. When H came back home, he just left for a few days, I stopped prety much all LB, but I felt so vulnerable I did very few deposits.
So I guess we didn't have a good MB start and I'm feeling a lot of remorse/sadness about it.
What I'm second guessing is about NC with his family. I think he is processing the NC better than me. Specially now at Mother's day, I can only think how his mother must be feeling about him not calling. I keep biting my tounge every time I think of mother's day.. geezz. We are not even totally NC, he does accept their calls but he does not initiate contact at all.
Second, about his work. He has not been able to find a job. He's keeping himself busy at home. But I know those activities are not satisfying for him. I feel I should drop all those requirements for the perfect job. Even today I just thought that maybe since OW is not at school (don't know if she is coming back though) he can come back. Ouch, that was not a nice though but it crossed my mind.
Another point I'm struggling is DJ's. I've been feeling low for the last few days. I become very irritable everything bothers me. But here is the thing. I don't know if what is bothering me is doing this just becuase I'm low or becuase they are actually bothering. Am I making my self clear??
For instance, he is prety chaotic in the kitchen. When I'm fine and I see this chaos in the kitchen I tell myself that I need to respect his way of doing things and give him some space and time. Last evening I was totally overwhelmed by the chaos and started having DJ in my mind. Thank Good I was able to keep them to myself. I did express some of my feelings last night, he is aware I'm struggling with all this, but we are both lost as to how to handle this situations.
Any insights will be greatly appreciated.
What I'm second guessing is about NC with his family. I think he is processing the NC better than me. Specially now at Mother's day, I can only think how his mother must be feeling about him not calling. I keep biting my tounge every time I think of mother's day.. geezz. We are not even totally NC, he does accept their calls but he does not initiate contact at all.
Second, about his work. He has not been able to find a job. He's keeping himself busy at home. But I know those activities are not satisfying for him. I feel I should drop all those requirements for the perfect job. Even today I just thought that maybe since OW is not at school (don't know if she is coming back though) he can come back. Ouch, that was not a nice though but it crossed my mind.
On these two points, here is something that MrEureka posted to me that I think might apply to you as well.
Accept the wisdom that you shouldn't sacrifice, even if you have the strength to endure. Find the win-win solution. With all the effort you have expended so far, you owe it to yourself and your [husband] to do that. A win-win solution is out there. Find it.
On these two points, here is something that MrEureka posted to me that I think might apply to you as well.
Accept the wisdom that you shouldn't sacrifice, even if you have the strength to endure. Find the win-win solution. With all the effort you have expended so far, you owe it to yourself and your [husband] to do that. A win-win solution is out there. Find it.
Thanks for sharing that with me, I really apreciate it.
Sometimes I just wonder how can it be hard to accept this wisdom. Sacrifice should not have a place in a marriage.
I'll talk tonight with hubby about these two.
Another point I'm struggling is DJ's. I've been feeling low for the last few days. I become very irritable everything bothers me. But here is the thing. I don't know if what is bothering me is doing this just becuase I'm low or becuase they are actually bothering. Am I making my self clear??
For instance, he is prety chaotic in the kitchen. When I'm fine and I see this chaos in the kitchen I tell myself that I need to respect his way of doing things and give him some space and time. Last evening I was totally overwhelmed by the chaos and started having DJ in my mind. Thank Good I was able to keep them to myself. I did express some of my feelings last night, he is aware I'm struggling with all this, but we are both lost as to how to handle this situations.
Any insights will be greatly appreciated.
I don't see any DJ here, what I see is conflict avoidance. When you see something that bothers you, ask for his help in removing it.
You've discovered that saying nothing fails to remove the annoyance and then the conflict mounts and steps up.
Marriage is a game of close quarters. You both have to adjust your behaviours to remove annoying habits.
On these two points, here is something that MrEureka posted to me that I think might apply to you as well.
Accept the wisdom that you shouldn't sacrifice, even if you have the strength to endure. Find the win-win solution. With all the effort you have expended so far, you owe it to yourself and your [husband] to do that. A win-win solution is out there. Find it.
Sometimes I just wonder how can it be hard to accept this wisdom. Sacrifice should not have a place in a marriage.
The reason we sacrifice is because it seems like the right thing to do. Christ has given us the ultimate example of selflessness by His sacrifice, so why shouldn't we do the same?
Well, in the first place, we are NOT the Lord. We are not capable of sinless self-sacrifice. In marriage, we need to avoid the sinful path that sacrifices leads us to. There are always other better options than giving in to sacrifice. Those better options allow both partners to win. So, neither partner gains at the expense of the other, and both end up equally happy with the outcome. This leads to happiness that is sustainable, whereas sacrificing to each other is never sustainable. At some point, one simply runs out of willingness to give up for the other.
In marriage, we need to avoid the sinful path that sacrifices leads us to
Thanks for your words, they do mean a lot to me.
Mr Eureka Can you help me understand this sentence. Are you referring to how we feel resentful after sacrifice?
In marriage, we need to avoid the sinful path that sacrifices leads us to
Thanks for your words, they do mean a lot to me.
Mr Eureka Can you help me understand this sentence. Are you referring to how we feel resentful after sacrifice?
I'm sorry I am being so abstract. The short answer is yes, but allow me to elaborate. We sin on many levels and in many ways. We are sinful people. It is our nature. When we feel others owe us, it tempts us to sin. We are too weak to avoid the sin, so we must avoid the temptation. That means, in this context, don't sacrifice. Don't set yourself up for the temptation that will lead you to sin. The are ways to do things that aren't loaded with the temptation to seek things in return. Those ways are the win-win solutions. That is why we want to negotiate with win-win outcomes as the goal.
Of course, Dr. Harley has an excellent book on this subject - "He Wins, She Wins".
In marriage, we need to avoid the sinful path that sacrifices leads us to
Thanks for your words, they do mean a lot to me.
Mr Eureka Can you help me understand this sentence. Are you referring to how we feel resentful after sacrifice?
I'm sorry I am being so abstract. The short answer is yes, but allow me to elaborate. We sin on many levels and in many ways. We are sinful people. It is our nature. When we feel others owe us, it tempts us to sin. We are too weak to avoid the sin, so we must avoid the temptation. That means, in this context, don't sacrifice. Don't set yourself up for the temptation that will lead you to sin. The are ways to do things that aren't loaded with the temptation to seek things in return. Those ways are the win-win solutions. That is why we want to negotiate with win-win outcomes as the goal.
Of course, Dr. Harley has an excellent book on this subject - "He Wins, She Wins".
Very insightful!
Wow, thanks so much MrEureka! that indeed is very helpful. Yes as a Christian, I find hard to not sacrifice, but I see what you are pointing out. Our sacrifices are inperfect.
Alada, thinking of you and wondering how you are doing?
Hi Blindsigthed, we are doing ok, thanks for checking. We had a few rough weeks health wise, and we have not been good on UA time.
We are making slow progress with SAA, again due to health problems. We have a heat wave and it looks its making its toll on all of us.H was in bed four days last week.
Our love banks are up and down every week. I can feel those changes but is nice to know what I need to do to make deposits.
Now that H was in bed, I noticed that domestic support is an important EN for him. He has never mentioned, in the questionarie, he ranks it as 7. But it looks to me that is more important for him. I asked him and apparently he feels that since he is not working domestic chores are his responsability, but still it makes him feel loved when I do the house. And I don't mean help in the house, but do it by myself.
That was one of the problems he complained about to OW, so I'm guessing it is very important for him. But it is hard for me to do the house and work FT. I always help in the house, do the dishes, bathrooms and other stuff. WE have a lady come do the cleaning once a week,but I don't know what else I can do to fullfill his DS need, any ideas?
Remember that meeting any particular need must be done in a way that makes you BOTH happy. Joyce and Dr. Harley discovered that although he liked his shirts to be ironed, Joyce didn't have to be the one doing the ironing. He just wanted the finished product. She was very happy to give up the chore and pay someone else to do it, and he was still happy with the result. And it was still meeting his need for DS because he wasn't the one doing it. Make sense?
If you prefer to hire someone to clean the house because of your FT job, or any other reason, and he wants you to be the one doing it, you need to keep brainstorming until you find a solution that works for both of you.
There are other aspects of DS other than cleaning the house, too, that could be considered: preparing meals, buying clothes, managing the household in general.
Keep negotiating and brainstorming until you both reach a decision that you are both enthusiastic about.
Hi Alada, so great to hear from you! Sorry though about the heat and it taking its toll.
On the DS topic, my H and I are in a different situation since we have no longer have children living at home. It is just us, and so the house stays pretty presentable. We only have cleaning/dusting/vacuuming issues to deal with during the week.
Have you and your H gotten to the area in the program where you list all of the domestic chores that you want to accomplish, and then divide them up?
We have not done that yet (still focusing on other things lol). We do keep a running list of domestic chores as well as the extras for maintenance and repair, etc.
Our main goal is our UA time, and H often finishes his work before I do, so he will look at that list and get those chores accomplished by himself just so that when my work is done, we can start on our UA time rather than feeling stuck "doing chores".
He also seems to be TOTALLY THRILLED when I do take some time away from my work day (I work at home) and get some of the domestic stuff accomplished.
In your sitch, just some random ideas�
can you maybe get up ten minutes early and fold laundry/and or switch the wash?
How about chopping fresh veggies and putting them into containers in the fridge so that they are easy to grab when he makes dinner?
Change sheets and put fresh ones on? <---I personally hate that chore but LOVE the results
Clean out the fridge?
Throw dinner in a crockpot before you leave for work?
Wipe fingerprints off of mirror and tv screen?
Vaccum out the car?
I'm just thinking of extra things that your H may not get to, since he is also a stay at home Dad, right?
Wow, this weekend was filled with triggers. I know that still being at campus is a big one, but I have learned to manage that particular one.
I had so many triggers this weekend, I feel so low. H is not good at helping me through my lows, I'm guessing he feels guilty.
Any suggestions on how to manage?
All triggers must be eliminated.
Have you considered moving?
Yes, we are planning on moving.
I was actually job hunting early this year, but due to my pregnancy we decided to postpone it. Now that I'm no longer pregnant I'm back to the job hunt. Unfortunately, I need to wait one more semester at least due to college calendars.
I would put moving on the very front burner because you will not be able to really start recovery until you are away from all the triggers. So be brainstorming ways to make it happen ASAP.
In the meantime, be sure to go out on 4 dates a week with your husband. Make it the best time of the week.
How much UA time are you getting?
Our UA time was down due to health issues, but we usually have 6 hours during the week and 6-8 more hours during the weekend.
Sometimes I stay home for a day to up our UA time, did that last week.
Yes, we are planning on moving.
I was actually job hunting early this year, but due to my pregnancy we decided to postpone it. Now that I'm no longer pregnant I'm back to the job hunt. Unfortunately, I need to wait one more semester at least due to college calendars.
What do you teach?
Can you do something short term not related to colleges? Consultancy work or temping?
Wow, this weekend was filled with triggers. I know that still being at campus is a big one, but I have learned to manage that particular one.
How?
Triggers are not something to manage; triggers are something to avoid. As long as you are in the "managing" mode, you are still experiencing the effects of the trigger. All "managing" is comes down to an attempt to control your response to a stimulus. Dr. Harley will tell you that it is far easier to control the stimulus than it is to control your reaction to it. Exposure to the campus weakens you. You can not afford that.
Please don't deceive yourself into believing that staying on campus is a manageable trigger. It is not. You have to get out of there.
What do you teach?
Can you do something short term not related to colleges? Consultancy work or temping?
I teach biology, we have actually thought of opening a consulting agency together. But we are deep in debt right now,and that has stopped us.
Our house is on the market right now, not the one where we live in right now. If the sell does happen it will free us and we can have a better horizon.
Please don't deceive yourself into believing that staying on campus is a manageable trigger. It is not. You have to get out of there.
You are completely right. I have learned to "control" my reaction in ordinary days. ButI have had instances where everything fails and even a little change in campus makes me feel low. A few months ago, my older girl had a day off at school. She wanted to come to work with me, she was excited to go to mom's work. I didn't think anything of it, until I actually turned the engine off of my car in the parking lot. All I can say is that it was a terrible day.
Have you listened to these clips from Dr. Harley on how to deal with triggers?
Dr. Harley on How to Deal with Triggers
Thanks Brainhurts!! You are always so helpful!!
Thanks Brainhurts!! You are always so helpful!!
You're very welcome.
Tell us what you think after you listen. Also, if you don't feel they answer your question you can always email Dr. Harley.
Tell us what you think after you listen.
Well, I think that I have learned to "manage" everyday triggers, like campus. I even think H is an every day trigger, don't you think. Some times, looking at me in the mirror is a trigger. Heck, at some point I forgot how old my little babe was, and finally I realized it was because I didn't want to count past those months. So even looking at my babe's pics is a trigger sometimes.
But as I said I learned to manage those. I choose to think something else. When it gets harder I have a little mantra that I repeat over and over until the triger vanishes.
I do noticed that I'm particularly vulnerable to those tirggers when our UA time is low.
Now, special trigers, is something else. They take me off guard, I usually don't see them coming and they hit me hard.
This weekend we had to go to an event in the vecinity of OW area, we POJAd either going or not. We decided to go but take a longer route to avoid certain areas. Turns out they had construction and we had to take another route, it was hard.
What I take from those clips is to up our UA time, not only in time but in quality. I guess I also need to remember that our recovery is still on its way, I don't have to take it for granted.
What I take from those clips is to up our UA time, not only in time but in quality. I guess I also need to remember that our recovery is still on its way, I don't have to take it for granted.
You hit right on what is very important. How much UA do you have scheduled for this week?
we have 12 hours scheduled out of the house, but we usually spend at least 5 hours per week after the kids are in bed fullfiling ENs
When I was at the point you are at, a single trigger would mess me up for days. I suspect with the frequency you are experiencing triggers, you are always under their influence.
Your spouse seems like a trigger now, but once you get away from the others, he won't seem like one anymore.
But as I said I learned to manage those. I choose to think something else. When it gets harder I have a little mantra that I repeat over and over until the triger vanishes.
This is not going to work long term.
The only way you are going to fully recover is if you get away from those things that trigger you to think of the affair. You must stop thinking of the affair, and you can't do it if you are being triggered on a regular basis. Forcing yourself to think of something else doesn't change the fact that you were triggered. It's the TRIGGER that needs to be stopped, not the feelings that follow it.
we have 12 hours scheduled out of the house, but we usually spend at least 5 hours per week after the kids are in bed fullfiling ENs
Bump that up to 16 hours out of the house.
What do you do during this time?
Bump that up to 16 hours out of the house.
Kids wiil be on summer camp soon, and that will make it easier.
What do you do during this time?
We probably spent half of it at a cafe, either reading, playing board games or just chatting. We also go to a bowling place, its fun.
Anyone else having trouble with the rebroadcast, is not running for me today. It starts with the music, but after one or two seconds all I can hear is static.
Anyone else having trouble with the rebroadcast, is not running for me today. It starts with the music, but after one or two seconds all I can hear is static.
It depends on exactly how you access the show, but I am certain one is playing. It is actually a "best of" replay from October 1, 2013. It is always possible to access the stream directly. Type the following URL into your web browser:
http://streamer.marriagebuilders.com:8001/prerecorded
Yes this one works, the link from the home page is not working. I usually use that link with no problems.
Thanks!
Just wanted to share that I found HNHN in spanish!! I'm thrilled, and I'm even more thrilled that H is thrilled as well.
Just wanted to share that I found HNHN in spanish!! I'm thrilled, and I'm even more thrilled that H is thrilled as well.
I heard Dr Harley say on the radio a couple of days ago that most of his books were available in Spanish, just not in the USA.
In Mexico I only founf HNHN in spanish, I'm looking for the rest.
I have tried amazon in chile and other international sites, but I have not found others.
This is the end to the first week of summer camp, that means, we have more than 15 hours of UA time already!!
The first day was kind of weird. Our dates are no longer than 3 hours, and I didn't know what to do for four hours!! The first day we sat down and planned for the week.
We are jogging in the morning, come home shower together. Go out to run some errands and finally have lunch together. Four hours every week day!! Nice! But I can keep up with the questions from people about why we have the little one at daycare if I'm home.
H is still lacking expressions of affection. I have complained about this several times, but he seems to forget a few days after I complain. I feel like I'm nagging him, good timing for the new article!! Ha
We are working on this one.
He is being having health problems. Last week we only managed to get 2 hours of UA, he was in bed almost all week long. This year has been particularly bad health wise. I wonder if it has something to do with the guilt he feels about the A.
But I can keep up with the questions from people about why we have the little one at daycare if I'm home.
That's good that you can keep up with their questions, because your marriage being strong is what makes good parents.
What do you tell them as your reason?
Keep up that UA time.
You could tell them that you are having hot dates with your husband. THAT will make them drool!
You could tell them that you are having hot dates with your husband. THAT will make them both drool and stop asking!
Yes Alada, that is some awesome UA time! Doesn't it make ALL the difference in the world? Good for you and your H that you both are putting your M first!
So what kind of great RC have you two had with all of this extra time?
Yep, love the hot dates answer that AM gave!
As for asking for affection� I dunno, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but we need to keep complaining as well as continue with the "I liked it when���.".
They NEED that info about us in order to see things from our perspective too (like Dr. and Joyce say�he sees the mountains and we see the ocean). That's how we know that they are really IN this�because they keep trying, even if they miss the mark. They adjust to our info, kwim?
I'm back to work today, we spent a lot of time looking for jobs elsewhere. We had no luck yet but we had a system set up for the job hunt. We talked about moving out of the country.
We had tons of UA time, around 26+ hours each week!! It definitely makes the difference!! H is now doing more of the affection thing, which I love and gives him enormous LB$
The weekends are usually hard on terms of UA, and I did notice that I felt "different" on a monday. I guess we are still highly dependent on our UA time. I have also seen people comment on other threads about the necessity of keeping UA time up all the time, even people with 5+ years of recovery. Does this UA dependence stay with us all the time? I'm just wondering,not that I plan on dropping our UA time at all, just curious. For instance, marriages like the Harleys, do they "need" to keep their UA time in order to keep their LB$ above the romantic treshhold?
The weekends are usually hard on terms of UA, and I did notice that I felt "different" on a monday. I guess we are still highly dependent on our UA time. I have also seen people comment on other threads about the necessity of keeping UA time up all the time, even people with 5+ years of recovery. Does this UA dependence stay with us all the time? I'm just wondering,not that I plan on dropping our UA time at all, just curious. For instance, marriages like the Harleys, do they "need" to keep their UA time in order to keep their LB$ above the romantic treshhold?
Yes! Without it, you will not be in love. The reason the Harleys have stayed in love all this time is because of their UA time.
We had tons of UA time, around 26+ hours each week!! It definitely makes the difference!! H is now doing more of the affection thing, which I love and gives him enormous LB$
This is sooooo wonderful to read! YAYYYY to you and your husband!
I'm back to work today, we spent a lot of time looking for jobs elsewhere. We had no luck yet but we had a system set up for the job hunt. We talked about moving out of the country.
We had tons of UA time, around 26+ hours each week!! It definitely makes the difference!! H is now doing more of the affection thing, which I love and gives him enormous LB$
The weekends are usually hard on terms of UA, and I did notice that I felt "different" on a monday. I guess we are still highly dependent on our UA time. I have also seen people comment on other threads about the necessity of keeping UA time up all the time, even people with 5+ years of recovery. Does this UA dependence stay with us all the time? I'm just wondering,not that I plan on dropping our UA time at all, just curious. For instance, marriages like the Harleys, do they "need" to keep their UA time in order to keep their LB$ above the romantic treshhold?
Here's a good thread with clips about this.
Critical Importance of Undivided Attention
To me, it is strange that you refer to time together as "UA dependence". For H and me, our best times ever are the times we spend together. I would rather do almost anything with H than something alone or with anyone else.
AM
The weekends are usually hard on terms of UA, and I did notice that I felt "different" on a monday. I guess we are still highly dependent on our UA time. I have also seen people comment on other threads about the necessity of keeping UA time up all the time, even people with 5+ years of recovery. Does this UA dependence stay with us all the time?
Alada, your verbiage is very confusing. The 15 hours of UA time is what couples who are in love spend together. Do you want to be in love? It is the bare minimum requiremnt to maintain the love in a marriage. So you will be "dependent" on it for as long as you want to have a marriage.
My H and I have been in recovery now for 13 years and we won't sacrifice our UA time for other, less important things. It is our most enjoyable time.
For instance, marriages like the Harleys, do they "need" to keep their UA time in order to keep their LB$ above the romantic treshhold?
YES. They like being married and they like being together so they "need" to be together as much as possible. They probably spend 25+ hours together of UA time.
Alada, I think you see it as drudgery now because you don't enjoy it...YET. When your marriage changes, you won't see it like that. You will be saying: "do I really NEED to go to this event.." or other much less important, enjoyable thing. My husband and I decline so many social events because we would rather be together alone. We ask: do we really need to go to this?? Usually the answer is no.
I'm sorry about the confussion, please remember, english is not my first language.
I'm going to try to be clear. My questions it is regarding the effect of missing a few hours some weeks.
A few months ago H got sick, he had a migraine for three days one week, and the next week he was sick again, in bed. Those two weeks we barely got 10 hours.
This week, my parents, who are usually our helpers with the kids are out of town. Our nanny missed one day because she had an emergency. We only have one nanny right now, because the second one we had was not reliable.
So here, we have had instances where we miss 5 or more hours of UA time. I'm not saying I don't enjoy our UA time. We have also missed several social events because we know our priority is UA time. I have even re-scheduled work stuff just to make sure we get UA time.
"I" can feel the effects of missing our UA time inmediately. If we miss 2 days I feel low in the LB$ area.
So here is my question, the longer you go working and spending UA time, the better equipped you are to face times where adversities happen?
I saw someone post -someone with around 10 years from recovery- that they slacked on UA and she felt the difference. I wondered why this couple with 10+ years of recovery will be so susceptible to this. I'm assuming that the couple was not skipping UA altogether, but rather missing a few hours a week.
"I" can feel the effects of missing our UA time inmediately. If we miss 2 days I feel low in the LB$ area.
This is normal and expected. That 15th hour is crucial, even for couples who have been in love for years. Even Dr. Harley and Joyce would feel that difference if they did not get enough UA hours.
We have been in love for years and we always can tell a difference when we cut it too short.
I have never heard about the love bank leaks. It was interesting to hear about it on the radio show. Did anybody got a chance to listen to it?
I guess what I talked about earlier is a leak, and the Harley's said they are not affected becuase they have a reserve account! Now I'm curious about those reserve accounts. Any insights?
I just got finished listening to that segment and I found it interesting as well. I have had the same question so I'm glad someone wrote in and asked about it.
I was particularly interested in what Dr Harley had to say about a former AP's love bank account.
I have never heard about the love bank leaks. It was interesting to hear about it on the radio show. Did anybody got a chance to listen to it?
I guess what I talked about earlier is a leak, and the Harley's said they are not affected becuase they have a reserve account! Now I'm curious about those reserve accounts. Any insights?
Here's the show
Radio Clip of 8-14-14
We had trouble using POJA for driving stuff. I recall there was a show or maybe a thread that talked about how the Harleys POJAd driving, can someone point me to it?
We hit a bump last night. I've noticed DH is not a good taker, he will never complain, or say anything. He usually just capitulates.
For instance, I'm a much slower driver and usually say something when I feel he is driving too fast. I try to be considerate and try to respectfully convince him. He will just slow down and not say anything. After a few weeks of this, I asked him one night if he was uncomfortable with me commenting about his driving. His first reaction was a big no. No problem. But I pushed a little bit, and he finally admited to being bothered by my comments.
I tried POJA it but he will say "that is alright, I'll just drive slower". I kinda let it go, since we were getting worked up, and I stopped commenting about his driving.
Last night I tried to bring the topic again. I said, you never complain about anything, is there anything I do that bothers you. Again I had to push it a little, and finally he admited he disliked my napping when I got home from work. I was a bit surprised, since he is always either joining me for a nap, or encouraging me to take one. So I was genuinely curious, and I asked him, what would you like me to do instead. He went round and round about stuff, until he finally admited, that it wasn't my napping but he was bored.
He starts online classes in a few weeks, but being at home doesn't suit him.
I don't mind the fact that he is not happy at home, we can always POJA it. What is really making noise is that he is never voicing anything.
I feel really bad about this situation, we have worked for more than 6 mos, everything is going smoothly, but he is not able to bring his taker to the table. There are no AO at all, I have been very carefull about DJ, and I do ask him, but if I don't have his feedback, there is only so much I can do.
How do I encourage him to be more transparent?
Watch it, Alada...
Nearly always, when you use the phrase, "you never... (do X)..." you are being disrespectful.
Try, instead, to say, "I would love it if you would tell me when something bothers you. Even if it is just a little bother. I really want to fix these things, and I need you to tell me about them. Can you help me with this?"
Then, when he does, express your thanks to him, for being a true partner in bettering the marriage.
One more thing. Dr. H says that women are usually irritated by their husbands more than men are irritated by their wives. It could be that you don't do much that irritates him.
Thanks Catwhit, I see my mistake
How do you know when you need ADs?
How do you know when you need ADs?
Here are some symptoms of depression:
- Persistent sad, anxious or �empty� feelings
- Feelings of hopelessness and/or pessimism
Irritability, restlessness, anxiety - Feelings of guilt, worthlessness and/or helplessness
- Loss of interest in activities or hobbies once pleasurable, including sex
- Fatigue and decreased energy
- Difficulty concentrating, remembering details and making decisions
- Insomnia, waking up during the night, or excessive sleeping
- Overeating, or appetite loss
- Thoughts of suicide, suicide attempts
- Persistent aches or pains, headaches, cramps or digestive problems that do not ease even with treatment
From this resource:
National Institute of Mental Health
I'm feeling a bit low, I have been planning an upcoming trip and it is right around Dday. H is coming, and we are bot very excited, but I can't help it.
thanks for asking blindsighted, you are always so kind
It sounds like you may need ADs. Can you follow up with your doctor?
A trip away together sounds like a large does of UA time, so that is good.
Recovery IS hard work and we get tired. Exercise helps me a lot, and I notice that I feel differently when I've missed it. Almost like UA time, haha!
I usually do yoga, but I have neglected it for a few months, maybe I should get back into it.
I will call my doctor today to see if I can get the same ADs I got at the begining of the year. They were very very helpful then.
I usually do yoga, but I have neglected it for a few months, maybe I should get back into it.
I will call my doctor today to see if I can get the same ADs I got at the begining of the year. They were very very helpful then.
I would also start-up your exercise regimen again. It will help so much.
How long do you keep up wiht the snooping?
I havea gps service in his cell phone. He is well aware of that but seriously is getting boring, I just see my texts, 100s of them
Dh started online classes, we found a neat career for him online. We are both excited. Just wondering if I need to install spyware on the computer now. He is not computer savy by all means, I usually just check the history, and that will give me all the details.
I don't feel I need it right now, but just wanted to ask you what your opinion is on this.
Dr. Harley suggests snooping until you're bored. Don't give it up entirely, though; accountability keeps us "in line."
We are reding now He wins she wins. It is a great read. Just by reading the back cover I got all excited!!
We had no idea we could do love deposits when arguing, whole new definition of marriage for us. If you have not read it, I highly recomend it.
Hi Alada!
That was and is a big one for us also. Negotiating respectfully really feels GREAT, doesn't it? It definitely empowers couple-ness.
I just wanted to give an update after the break.
We used to be so afraid of breaks, and we would long to come back to work-school. But this time was so different. We enjoyed the break so much, we spent 20+ UA every week. It is not a task anymore, we really look forward our UA time. We are reading again HNHN and it feels we are reading a new book, we have different perspectives than one year ago. Sitting right now at my desk I feel like a teenager waiting to go to H
Mr Alada is job hunting right now, and is taking online classes for a new exciting B.S.
That is so great!!
It's nice to see how EPs like quitting a job can open up new and better possibilities for people.
Bravo, Alada.
I just wanted to give an update after the break.
We used to be so afraid of breaks, and we would long to come back to work-school. But this time was so different. We enjoyed the break so much, we spent 20+ UA every week. It is not a task anymore, we really look forward our UA time. We are reading again HNHN and it feels we are reading a new book, we have different perspectives than one year ago. Sitting right now at my desk I feel like a teenager waiting to go to H
Mr Alada is job hunting right now, and is taking online classes for a new exciting B.S.
That is fantastic!! Love that UA time.
I don't know if I ever posted this on your thread or not, but I saw you mention it (thank you by the way) on another thread.
Here it is
Radio Clip of Alada's Question on Forgiving OW
I thought of you when I heard this. Not because I think you struggle with wanting to hurt the OW, but that we've talked about forgiving the OW.
I apologize if I'm off base.
Radio Clip on Resentment After an Affair
Thanks for sharing BH.
I think it is right on, the Harleys highlight the importance of following exposure and EP as a way to move on.
thanks again!
Thanks for sharing BH.
I think it is right on, the Harleys highlight the importance of following exposure and EP as a way to move on.
thanks again!
You're welcome.
Yes to make the marriage better than before the affair.
I think I'm ready to go into plan B. A lot of things happened last week. We've been doing our UA time as recomended,but H is not on board with POJA at all.Its little things here and there, but last night I found out he is using porn
I was up allnight thinking about what I need to go into plan B.It shouldn't take me too long. I just have a few questions
First, how do I prepare my girls. I know they are going to suffer thru this and I want to make it as smooth. The 5 yr old was not aware of her fathers A,she was 3 then. I'm assuming I need to tell her about the A and then what? I don't want to give the impression that I didn't want to fight for the marriage,but I don't want to badmouth H either.
I though of an IM,I will look into it today.
Do I need to write a plan B letter as well? Our problem is not so much EPs, but rather lack of compromise on his part. How do I make a check list for this? He's not listening to MB radio, and I have continously asked for him to do it. I was thinking of including this on the list, but how can I check he is really listening. Poja is also big problem for him, he is so good at sacrificing, he says he will do poja from now on, but all I have is his word. What can I put on the checklist for him to come back?
Also, how do I act with him right now? I'm disgusted by the porn I saw last night, I don't feel like I have words of admiration, affection or SF for him at all (his top ENs). Do I need to plan A him before he goes?
I think I'm ready to go into plan B. A lot of things happened last week. We've been doing our UA time as recomended,but H is not on board with POJA at all.Its little things here and there, but last night I found out he is using porn
I was up allnight thinking about what I need to go into plan B.It shouldn't take me too long. I just have a few questions
First, how do I prepare my girls. I know they are going to suffer thru this and I want to make it as smooth. The 5 yr old was not aware of her fathers A,she was 3 then. I'm assuming I need to tell her about the A and then what? I don't want to give the impression that I didn't want to fight for the marriage,but I don't want to badmouth H either.
I though of an IM,I will look into it today.
Do I need to write a plan B letter as well? Our problem is not so much EPs, but rather lack of compromise on his part. How do I make a check list for this? He's not listening to MB radio, and I have continously asked for him to do it. I was thinking of including this on the list, but how can I check he is really listening. Poja is also big problem for him, he is so good at sacrificing, he says he will do poja from now on, but all I have is his word. What can I put on the checklist for him to come back?
Also, how do I act with him right now? I'm disgusted by the porn I saw last night, I don't feel like I have words of admiration, affection or SF for him at all (his top ENs). Do I need to plan A him before he goes?
Are you saying that he doesn't follow POJA because he reluctantly agrees with you?
Or that he does IB?
I'm sorry. Did you confront him about the porn?
Alada, how did you discover the porn? Did he confess or did you find it? Was he willing to eliminate the conditions that allowed him to access the porn?
On the POJA, it may take him a while to learn how to negotiate and to be open and honest about his reactions. My H felt so guilty about his affair that he would willingly agree to just about anything. I didn't want that either. But it took a while for my H to develop the habit of being open about his reactions and negotiate with me for a solution that works for both of us.
I can certainly understand you being extremely upset about the porn. I would be, too. I was so upset that my H slipped up on his EPs and called an employee a term of endearment that I very nearly left him over it. It took some fits and starts to get through the first year and we both made mistakes.
I recommend that you and your H eliminate all the conditions of the porn, if possible. He would need to completely eliminate the use of porn and get rid of the means by which he did so.
This feels like a big setback, I'm sure, but it's not a resumption of the affair. If he's willing to stop the porn, eliminate independent behavior, and learn to use the POJA better, I'd give him a bit more time if you really want to recover your marriage.
I agree with LongWay.
He has to be able to come clean and be honest with you. Habits are difficult to break. It's not that slip ups are okay. They aren't. But they happen. If he is willing to formulate a plan to avoid it in the future, then progress can be made.
I don't think that you can dictate MBR. But you can let hubby know that it is a sign you watch for to see if he is invested in learning how to have a great marriage.
At first it will seem boring and like everything runs together. Try listening with him for a while maybe? Once he gets used to it, he will start to be entertained and interested.
I wouldn't recommend any sort of requirement of listening to MB radio either. The requirements for recovery should be EPs to prevent another affair from happening and working with you to create a marriage that is better than ever. Mistakes will happen along the way, and when they occur, learn from them.
We sit down together when we can throughout the week and listen to MB radio together, usually enjoying a pot of tea.
Are you saying that he doesn't follow POJA because he reluctantly agrees with you?
Or that he does IB?
He is usually more into capitulation. But I do not notice he is capitulating until after the fact. For instance, her (wayward) sister had a birthday party and invited us. I asked him, what was the plan, he said Whatever you want. I made a point of not saying yes or no and just left it like that. I later came back with the same question, I got a "If you do not want to go, we wont", and I asked him, well you want to go right, and he said no, if you do not want to go, we wont go. Next day I asked again, what is the plan, and he reitarated, we wont go. He was absent minded all day long, and in fact we almost got involved in an accident because of it. At night I asked, what happened, he said, he felt bad we didn't go. So I asked, why didn't you tell me you wanted to go. He said he didnt want to bother me.
We've had incidents like this before. And after the fact I say, we could've done x y or z, is not like we have to do what I want. If you say you want something different we can poja.
I'm sorry. Did you confront him about the porn?
Yes, I did. He denied everything and he made it look like it was just a pop up window. But with 20+ pages of it, he coudln't hold his lie no more
I'm off to teach, I'll be back later to respond to your other questions
thanks
Thanks for your replies, I see what you are saying. Mistakes are part of the road, but my question is how many mistakes can one take.
H has had many little slips here and there, and we talk about them and try to learn from them. He also had some major slips, like going to the neighbor's (lady) house alone with her and chat for God knows how long. Or talking to another lady about his diabetes. I kindly said to both of them, that he was breaking EPs. He nodded and changed the topic. He feels this is no biggie, both ladies are older and he considers they are no threat, so he doesn't think this is breaking the EPs at all. He doesn need EP with these kind of people.He will agree to stop it, but only does it for a while, two or three weeks and then another slip happens.
I also understand I can not force him to do MBR, I totally get it. I know is extremely hard for him to listen in another language. But I also feel that he is missing on this big oportunity. I am the nagging wife telling him time and time again what bothers me. He feels capitulating will do, because he doesn't know any better. We constantly chat about what I heard on MBR, and I say " You know I can only tell you my perspective on it, you should listen to it". I try my best not to lecture him, just point where the help is. But he finds it very hard and desists.
I feel like I'm pushing jelly uphill (I like this analogy from Indiegirl). I feel I'm not worth his effort. He doesn't have a plan. After I confronted him about the porn, he said, he won't do it again. I asked if he had a plan. No he doesn't. I can give him a plan and help him eliminate the conditions. I can point him to where he can find the plan (Dr. H's article). But, that is the problem, I will be doing the pushing, he will just capitulate one more time.
Would he be willing to post to the forum?
Also, I can't remember...
Is Lovebusters in Spanish?
Would he be willing to post to the forum?
I don't think so. I have suggested it before, but again, he is not confortable with the language barrier.
Is Lovebusters in Spanish?
No, only HNHN. I have given him articles translated before. Google translator is not great, so I usually do a revision and then give it to him. He will not read them, or even if he does he will forget about them and toss them away.
Alada, you have been on this forum for about a year and a half. You said this early this year --
I just wanted to give an update after the break.
We used to be so afraid of breaks, and we would long to come back to work-school. But this time was so different. We enjoyed the break so much, we spent 20+ UA every week. It is not a task anymore, we really look forward our UA time. We are reading again HNHN and it feels we are reading a new book, we have different perspectives than one year ago. Sitting right now at my desk I feel like a teenager waiting to go to H
Mr Alada is job hunting right now, and is taking online classes for a new exciting B.S.
Things were looking up. What happened that led up to the mistakes of last week that you mention?
When you expressed concern about him chatting with women, he created excuses saying that they were older so it didn't matter. He should have apologized and agreed to stop the practice since you weren't enthusiastic about it.
When you discovered the porn-viewing, he tried to lie his way out of it, and dishonesty is a HUGE love buster. Porn is bad enough and most women are highly offended by it, but the dishonesty makes it much worse.
He doesn't yet understand the vital importance of the POJA. I get that since he can't understand English he can't really listen to the radio show unless you translate, but you have surely explained to him how it works, so it seems he should have more understanding.
Since you have already been so long working in recovery, I would be concerned for your health. You can't continue pushing and pushing your H into a great marriage. It takes
both spouses working on it 100% to make a marriage wonderful. And a wonderful safe marriage is what would make staying after an affair worthwhile.
Does your H understand the concepts of Love Busters and what will cause you to fall in love with him? AND that it takes very little to destroy any love you might have had for him? I'm not suggesting that you lecture him. I AM suggesting that you spell out to him what it will take for you to stay in this marriage.
1.) Extraordinary Precautions for life that make YOU feel safe. And if this means no more chatting personally with women, even if they are old as dirt, then that's what needs to happen.
2.) A great marriage of extraordinary care in which you each meet the others ENs and love busters are eliminated. No dishonesty, no independent behavior, etc.
3.) The foundation of a great marriage is the POJA, so you will both need to learn to be frank about your feelings about a particular conflict. When the birthday event came up, you should say whether or not you are enthusiastic. He should be as frank. But if he wants to go and you don't and not only that, you don't want him to go either, then you don't go. You and he would find something else to do that you both enjoy.
Things were looking up. What happened that led up to the mistakes of last week that you mention?
He needs to get a job. I "think" that is the problem. he found a job on february but only stayed for two weeks, it was not what he expected. The problem with finding a job is that he is either overqualified for it, or underqualified. He is getting a degree online, but he is not fullfilled with it right now. His need is to be making money.
SF is also a problem. He had health problems and couldnt get SF, we investigated and he had high sugar levels, thus the infection. He tried a diet for two weeks and then just relaxed it. He gets extremely upset, and capitulates when I point he is overeating. But again, I think this is because of the jobless situation.
Does your H understand the concepts of Love Busters and what will cause you to fall in love with him? AND that it takes very little to destroy any love you might have had for him? I'm not suggesting that you lecture him. I AM suggesting that you spell out to him what it will take for you to stay in this marriage.
I think he does. We have gone over that while reading the books. I usually translate them for him, which is hard. So I don't know that the concept really sinks in or that he remembers any of it. I have asked him several times what are my top ENs, he doesnt know.
1.) Extraordinary Precautions for life that make YOU feel safe. And if this means no more chatting personally with women, even if they are old as dirt, then that's what needs to happen.
Yes, I get that, and he capitulates, but since he is not commited to it, he forgets and slips. He is a social butterfly and talks away all the time.
3.) The foundation of a great marriage is the POJA, so you will both need to learn to be frank about your feelings about a particular conflict. When the birthday event came up, you should say whether or not you are enthusiastic. He should be as frank. But if he wants to go and you don't and not only that, you don't want him to go either, then you don't go. You and he would find something else to do that you both enjoy.
You know I certainly can think of alternatives for the bday party, like just stopping by to drop a present. Or arrive really late jus to eat cake, or what not. I think we can find an alternative, but he is just so deep into capitulating that there is no much room to poja
Would he be willing to post to the forum?
I don't think so. I have suggested it before, but again, he is not confortable with the language barrier.
Would he post in Spanish?
Would he be willing to post to the forum?
I don't think so. I have suggested it before, but again, he is not confortable with the language barrier.
Would he post in Spanish?
Mmm I don't know. I can suggest it and see if he is in.
Would he be willing to post to the forum?
I don't think so. I have suggested it before, but again, he is not confortable with the language barrier.
Would he post in Spanish?
Mmm I don't know. I can suggest it and see if he is in.
Maybe a vet here speaks some spanish?
You are in a tough spot, Alada, because you are the wife, and it is a struggle not to lecture when you feel like the teacher and translator.
But like LongWay said, you can set your boundaries and make it clear.
Maybe a vet here speaks some spanish?
You are in a tough spot, Alada, because you are the wife, and it is a struggle not to lecture when you feel like the teacher and translator.
But like LongWay said, you can set your boundaries and make it clear.
I think I have made myself clear before on setting boundaries. Do I do it one more time? I'm frustrated
Alada, the porn and the talking to women are two different things.
Yes, I would communicate about these issues in writing. And make it simple.
For the porn, I would write that for you, his watching porn is being unfaithful, similar to an affair. That you can't tolerate it in your marriage. That his unwillingness to create a plan to prevent it is destroying your marriage. That you need to be the ONLY source of sexual stimulation and need meeting for your husband or you can't remain married.
1.) Extraordinary Precautions for life that make YOU feel safe. And if this means no more chatting personally with women, even if they are old as dirt, then that's what needs to happen.
Yes, I get that, and he capitulates,
but since he is not commited to it he forgets and slips. He is a social butterfly and talks away all the time.
[quote]
On this topic, here is where you need to focus. Maybe you are sure, since you live with him every day. But (eta: his not being committed) it could also be an assumption (DJ) on your part based on your own way of thinking. There are lots of reasons why he might forget or slip. Because he is not in your shoes, he doesn't have a pain reminder. So, a few reasons why he might forget are:
1. He just forgets. (Hard to believe, but very possible.)
2. The defined lovebuster looked different to him than to you. (He thinks that only women he's not attracted to aren't a concern for you, and he doesn't understand your need for
attention loyalty.)
3. He has impulse control issues. Just because he understands, doesn't mean that he can stop the behavior in time. This takes planning (avoiding the situation)and practice with forming a new habit. He will need to be on board with accommodating your feelings.
What you need to do is discern whether this is a WILLINGNESS problem or a CHANGING HABITS problem.
I wouldn't interrogate him. Writing it down helps you stay calm. Maybe ask him,
What do you think it would take for you to NEVER watch porn again?
What do you think it would take for you to stop being friendly to other females?
Maybe a vet here speaks some spanish?
You are in a tough spot, Alada, because you are the wife, and it is a struggle not to lecture when you feel like the teacher and translator.
But like LongWay said, you can set your boundaries and make it clear.
I think I have made myself clear before on setting boundaries. Do I do it one more time? I'm frustrated
No, if your boundaries are violated you do not repeat them - you have to enforce them.
Prisca and I have been learning Spanish and could try to post to your husband if he arrives, but nothing we say in any language will do any good if you do not enforce your boundaries.
Are you prepared to separate if his intolerable behavior continues? I would be prepared to separate at a moment's notice.
Have you read Prisca's account of how she asked me to leave when I wouldn't stop my angry outbursts?
Are you prepared to separate if his intolerable behavior continues? I would be prepared to separate at a moment's notice.
Have you read Prisca's account of how she asked me to leave when I wouldn't stop my angry outbursts?
Yes, I am prepared to be separated. I do have a plan.
No, I have not read that I will look for it. Can you help me with a date so I can look for it.
I wouldn't interrogate him. Writing it down helps you stay calm. Maybe ask him,
What do you think it would take for you to NEVER watch porn again?
What do you think it would take for you to stop being friendly to other females?
I'm afraid of interrogating him. When I have done that in the past, he just shuts down and I start getting frustrated.
I can write the questions down and give them to him in advance. Don't know if that would work.
Thanks for your replies, I see what you are saying. Mistakes are part of the road, but my question is how many mistakes can one take.
H has had many little slips here and there, and we talk about them and try to learn from them. He also had some major slips, like going to the neighbor's (lady) house alone with her and chat for God knows how long. Or talking to another lady about his diabetes. I kindly said to both of them, that he was breaking EPs. He nodded and changed the topic. He feels this is no biggie, both ladies are older and he considers they are no threat, so he doesn't think this is breaking the EPs at all. He doesn need EP with these kind of people.He will agree to stop it, but only does it for a while, two or three weeks and then another slip happens.
I also understand I can not force him to do MBR, I totally get it. I know is extremely hard for him to listen in another language. But I also feel that he is missing on this big oportunity. I am the nagging wife telling him time and time again what bothers me. He feels capitulating will do, because he doesn't know any better. We constantly chat about what I heard on MBR, and I say " You know I can only tell you my perspective on it, you should listen to it". I try my best not to lecture him, just point where the help is. But he finds it very hard and desists.
I feel like I'm pushing jelly uphill (I like this analogy from Indiegirl). I feel I'm not worth his effort. He doesn't have a plan. After I confronted him about the porn, he said, he won't do it again. I asked if he had a plan. No he doesn't. I can give him a plan and help him eliminate the conditions. I can point him to where he can find the plan (Dr. H's article). But, that is the problem, I will be doing the pushing, he will just capitulate one more time.
That phrase really is my own invention! Guess what experience inspired it....
I agree with Markos, you don't continue to push up, you push out.
If he's aggreable to stopping the porn, put spyware (don't let on) and password or parental protections on the computer. Make it impossible. He should also agree not to delete history.
The friendlyness to ladies - both agree what he needs to say in those situations.
I wouldn't get too hung up on MB and MBR. My dad and many other men on the planet manage to observe MB without ever having heard of it. It's called being married. As long as he listens to you it doesn't matter if he ever listens to Dr H. Especially if it's backed up with consequences.
Markos, can you help me with a date. I started looking at both you and Prisca's posts and I can't find when she asked you to leave the house.
mr alada might come, he is still thinking about it
Markos, can you help me with a date. I started looking at both you and Prisca's posts and I can't find when she asked you to leave the house.
mr alada might come, he is still thinking about it
The thread is in Prisca's signature, Alada, if you can find a post by her.
The thread is in Prisca's signature, Alada, if you can find a post by her.
Not really, that is a (great) compilation of links on what to do with an angry husband.
I kicked Markos out in the summer of 2012 (which is when I created that Angry Husband thread).
We had been working the program for awhile by then, but Markos wasn't making much progress on his Angry Outbursts. Not too long before I kicked him out, Dr. Harley had told me that nothing would get better in our marriage until Markos stopped the AOs. He was having them on a very regular basis, and every time was a traumatic experience. I then started reading through the MB articles that Dr. Harley had written about anger and abuse, and decided that I could no longer live that way.
I made up my mind that if he ever blew up at me again, he was gone. I knew it would happen again, so I started preparing myself. I was ready to call my dad to come over and help me if Markos refused to leave, and I was also ready to call the police. I researched the best way to have my locks changed, and had numbers for a few locksmiths on hand.
The hardest part was probably the fear that I was somehow doing something wrong. Here I was, a SAHM with 6 kids, and I was going to kick the breadwinner out. That's a hurdle you just have to jump over -- if you need to separate, then BE a woman with enough strength to do it. Make up your mind and do it.
Anyway, he did have another AO one night, like I knew he would. The next day, I pretended to be asleep while he got ready for work, and when he left I got up and packed him a bag. I texted him at work and told him he couldn't live at home anymore. I was scared to death he was going to fight me on it, but he agreed, came home and got his bag, and left. I didn't even worry about where he was going, or how he was going to pay for it. I didn't allow myself to worry about him at all, although it was tempting. I moved on to the next part of my plan and focused my attention on having a wonderful time with my babies.
I was lucky in that markos stepped up to the plate and started doing what he needed to do to win me back. I allowed him to date me, so that I could see if he really was doing anything different. I allowed him to come home after a couple of weeks, too,
but that was a BIG mistake and he went back to having angry outbursts again. I kicked him out once more. A couple of weeks was no where long enough to see real change.
While he was gone, I wrote him a letter listing things I needed in order to feel comfortable with ever having him come home. I had him agree to it and sign it. On the list was an agreement that if he ever had an AO again, he would be out of the house for at least a year while he worked with Dr. Harley and took anger management again. He hasn't had an angry outburst since.
The main point from all this: Don't be afraid to separate if it has come to that point. Dr. Harley says that a separation will make what was going to happen only happen sooner. Either your husband will step up to the plate and do what needs to be done and you will be happy, or he will not and you will be happy without him.
Below is one of my favorite posts from one of my favorite posters (emphasis mine). She was talking to a woman about her WH, but the thoughts apply to a husband in general who is abusive or negligent, and it really inspired me. These are the same lessons I learned when I kicked markos out, and they are invaluable:
GM, do you want to know what I learned most from my separation with my husband?
That I can be just fine without him.
I won't die from the pain.
My world won't end.
I can manage raising my family.
I can be creative in finding solutions to things he used to handle (like yard work).
There is nothing I will face without him that is worth moving my boundaries and sacrificing a safe, caring marriage.
You have learned these things, too. You may not see it yet. But you did not die from the pain and your world didn't end, even though it felt like it did.
There is power in realizing this. You don't have to cling to him in desperation. You can value yourself enough to expect a decent husband.
I will add that my biggest mistakes in separating were:
1. Allowing him home too soon
2. Not telling my family what was going on
3. Not telling the kids what was going on
If you separate, don't make those same mistakes.
Thanks for taking the time to post Prisca.
In fact, I don't think I will have a problem without him. I'm the breadwinner at home, and my family is really close. I'm just clinging to him.
I think my plan is talk to him one last time about my requirements
1. No porn
2. EP
3. PoJA
4. A great marriage of extraordinary care
I will ask him if he has any special requests from me.
And make it clear that there is no next time. I do have a question here, becuase to me this sounds as a selfish demand. How do I word it to avoid SD or DJs.
Also, I don't think he undestands the severity of porn. We haven't talked again about it after sunday night, when I confronted him. I don't want to lecture him about it, is it a good idea to explain, or do you think I should just leave it alone. I feel very insecure watching TV, so many almost-nude scenes in commercials even at day hours. I don't eve want to get undressed infront of him.
And make it clear that there is no next time. I do have a question here, becuase to me this sounds as a selfish demand. How do I word it to avoid SD or DJs.
Don't threaten to separate. Just be ready to if it should come to that. So I would avoid any attempts to make it clear that there is "no next time." I would just tell him "These are the things I need in our marriage." And if there is a next time, just start your plan of separation.
Also, I don't think he undestands the severity of porn. We haven't talked again about it after sunday night, when I confronted him. I don't want to lecture him about it, is it a good idea to explain, or do you think I should just leave it alone. I feel very insecure watching TV, so many almost-nude scenes in commercials even at day hours. I don't eve want to get undressed infront of him.
He doesn't need to understand the severity of porn. He doesn't even have to agree that it's a bad thing for your marriage. Don't debate him on it or lecture him about it. All he needs to know is "Porn hurts me severely and I need you to never look at it again."
Don't threaten to separate. Just be ready to if it should come to that. So I would avoid any attempts to make it clear that there is "no next time." I would just tell him "These are the things I need in our marriage." And if there is a next time, just start your plan of separation.
So, I'm a little confused. We had this discussion in the past. When reading HNHN we both said, this is what we need. And he broke EPs, and he neglected me. Am I wrong assuming that maybe I should've done this before. I was so ready to kick him out sunday night, but wanted to ask here before doing so. Do I give it one more go?
My point is to not make threats:
"This is the last time."
"I'm going to separate from you if it happens again."
"Follow MB or I'm leaving."
You do not have to give it one more go. If he knows that an MB marriage is what you need, you are perfectly within your rights to separate now. Just do it without making threats.
Ok, got it. No threat it is
Alada, how are things going with you. What happened with the issues you were dealing with in March?
Thanks for checking up on me ever2late.
I installed some spyware and he's been clean. We've been doing prety good, love banks have been over the threshold lately. However, this past week I caught a terrible cold and the butterflies just vanished. Sometimes I'm amazed at how sensitive the love bank is, however I'm glad I know exactly what I need to do to go over that threshold again.
I still feel H would benefit a lot from reading/listening to MB radio, but I can only suggest it.
He has not been able to find a job, he is overqualified for all of them. He even got an interview with the owner of a big company who told him exactly that, we can not hire you because you are overqualified, I'll keep your cv in case.
I'm feeling prety down today. Dday 2nd aniversary is coming up, and I'm pregnant, so I feel my hormones are doing wako things on myself.
I think we are doing prety good on our recovery, I've been working on not lowering the bar. I keep complaining about whatever I don't like, and I do it as respectfully as I can, just stating the facts. Most of the times I get a good response from H, but sometimes my complains go igonred.
I think our main problem here is that H is not meeting my EN for IC. We talk a lot, we do a lot of fun things, SF is great and frequent, but IC is just not happening. As I said I'm feeling prety hormonal, I have nightmares, small things make me go over the edge and cry or shut myself down.
How can we work this out? I feel prety starved of IC, a shoulder to cry and a few words when I'm feeling down. It huts me specially given that it's exactly how his A started, he was conforting OW.
Are you doing the online program?
How much UA time are you getting? UA time should be met by meeting the 4 intimate ENs, SF, RC, Afection and IC. What are you doing during your UA time?
Hi {{{ Alada }}}
Since you guys aren't doing the MB online program, what are you doing at the moment to work towards recovery?
I'm sorry that this is a tough time for you right now. I also still get down sometimes...the roller coaster is still working at full speed...ugh...but the difference is that now I can go a week or two until I take that downhill slide. :::knocking on wood::: because I don't want to go there right now lol.
When I do go for that downhill ride, my H now notices immediately without my even having to say anything, and he works with me to think of anything to pull me back to the top.
Is your H working with you to help? I'm not meaning to just "try" things...I mean to POJA things in each case and do anything to rip me up out of that funk. Since we POJA'd it all, then H just goes through that list with me when I'm down in that hole, and whichever thing lights any sort of fire in me lol, we hurry and do that.
When I get like that Alada, I don't WANT to feel better, or try, or go or do anything...it's like insta-depression for me...so H really has to pull me up for a minute...what we do is sometimes H will read the bible, sometimes he will go down a list of things that he loves about me, sometimes he'll give me a back rub, sometimes we will go get an ice cream, sometimes we will get in the car and drive for an hour or two away, sometimes we will go to a park, go swimming...not necessarily UA time because we drop everything and GO...Then it usually snaps back quickly for me...and soon I'm back at the top of the hill again.
Maybe you and your H could POJA in advance a list like that?
And yeah...UA TIME...that's a given so I'm assuming that you guys are still keeping up with that? UA is another thing that took us a long while to get "right". We would do it, plenty of it, but I had to keep complaining to H for a long while that I didn't feel that it was UNDIVIDED attention. And then I didn't enjoy UA time very much at all. Now I can say that we are finally getting close to it being truly UA for almost all of the time. But we constantly have to stick to our schedule in order to get it...seems that now that we are doing better, life intervenes more if we allow it to.
Sorry about the hiatus.
Regarding our UA tim, we miseed quite a few weeks, becuase I was on bed rest. This last month we picked up quite a bit. I still need to rest a lot, but we are finally doing our 15 hours. We do a lot of different things, coffee, walks, billard, movies, theatre, satying home under the covers, etc.
We got the books HNHN, SAA, LB along with the workbooks.The problem we had with these, is that I have to translate, and ultimately it feels like I'm lecturing him. I listen to the radio, but H doesn't. He does not feel motivated to read or listen because of the language.
We do follow EP, UA, Poja is still tricky for us.
When I hit a low, H either ignores it or withdraws from me. I think whenever I start feeling low, H feels guilty and tries to just move on.
Don't try to read your husband's mind Alada...he may or may not feel guilty when you feel low, but your deciding how he feels is a love buster. Can you think of a few things that might help you, and then POJA them with hubby to see if he is willing to try them?
A big part of the stumbling block (for us) with POJA, was learning the PORH. We each would sometimes choose the easier way and not take the time to input our honest perspective (we were sacrificing out of laziness). RH is a must in order to ascertain that both really are enthusiastic about solutions.
I agree that you need to not assume you know why H is ignoring or withdrawing from you.
I know when my H hits a 'low' it is generally when he is love busting more, so if I am more withdrawn it is generally because he is unpleasant to be around. (i.e. sad, mopey, complaining, negative...) I am not saying that is what you are doing, and we all have low moments, but just thinking of it from a different perspective.
As BlindSighted said, PORH will help you figure that out, if you are both honest about your feelings as to what is bothering you and finding solutions to that.
Thanks Blindsighted, yes I will stop mind-reading.
I will work on a list and talk to him, I'm truly afraid of his reaction, but I will give it a shot.
Now regarding RH, it's being a stumblig block. Since I have noticed that he ignores or withdraws, I usually just try to say nothing when I'm low. I do complain about other stuff like IB or AH. We'll work on it.
I will work on a list and talk to him, I'm truly afraid of his reaction, but I will give it a shot.
Now regarding RH, it's being a stumblig block. Since I have noticed that he ignores or withdraws, I usually just try to say nothing when I'm low. I do complain about other stuff like IB or AH. We'll work on it.
Remember we have to do our part to keep the bar high.
Like Dr. Harley points out in his books, saying nothing when we are low is kind of like the bank not sending an overdraft notice when we have overdrawn our account. That information is important so that we can take action and fix the problem.
In what way are you afraid of your H's reaction?
In what way are you afraid of your H's reaction?
I'm afraid he will just ignore it. That's how it has been in the past, we talk make plans and then he doesn't follow through.
I'm afraid he will just ignore it. That's how it has been in the past, we talk make plans and then he doesn't follow through.
Once you both are free to be Radically Honest with each other, that will stop happening. In reality, POJA requires that even if we change our minds about the solution, we are free to be honest and say so. This took time (for us) to learn.
We must be pleasant even if we feel disappointed when our spouse tells us that they have changed their mind and wish to re-POJA.
If your H doesn't follow through on solutions that have been agreed upon, please let him know that it bothers you and ask to re-POJA.
Through following all of the steps in POJA, we learn to keep each other safe in the midst of conflict. As a couple, we learn that we are safe to be honest with each other, and pretty soon we realize the beauty of the PORH.
Here's a radio clip that made me think of you. The H will agree to POJA during the discussion but won't follow through. Please tell us what you think.
Radio Clip on POJA
Thanks Brainhurts, it was a very good session, both segments.
After listening to the clip, and reading what blindsighted said I realize that I need to make H feel safe to be open and honest. I've been prety emotional as I said and he might be afraid to tell me exactly what he feels. In addition, I think that I need to complain more often, in a respectful way not emotionally charged. It is a challenge for me, but I will work on it.
Just as a said note, just this weekend I found out something special H likes about SF. I can not believe we have been 15years together and I didn't know. He was ashamed to tell me before, so I used to occasion to tell him how important RH is.
Is this your question?
Radio Clip