Azurite has an incredible ability for being concise and accurate. Being a man of (way too) many words, I aspire to improve in this area and learn from her. It will be one more, among many areas of my life that have greatly improved through my relationship with her.

Well, there it is. The ugly reality. How. In. The. World did I ever become so deceived that I would turn from the Lord and go down a path that horrible in the name of improving our marital relationship. How could I do that to her? All I can say is that God's mercy is great, his grace knows no bounds, and His power is greater than divorce. We have a worldly price to pay, and we have certainly been paying it, but I am so grateful for the blood of Jesus that covers my gigantic sins, that puts me in right standing with Him and so grateful that Azurite chose to forgive and try again.

Something amazing occurred to me as I read this. Azurite's perspective on our beginning, our past, our failings, our recovery and our current state are the same as mine. We are both changing and beginning to come into UNITY. After 15 years! The bad experiences such as those we have been through change a person. We build walls and construct filters. Memories become distorted. Our views of each other erode. But as we are healing, those bad things are falling away. Truth is being restored. Trust is being restored. And our view of the world AND of our past is coming into oneness and unity. What a huge blessing!

Basically my position in the beginning of our marriage was a quest for intimacy with Azurite but with absolutely no idea how to be married. Very little Godly model or training, spiritual or practical. And of course that info was out there but I never looked. Mix this with a lot of selfishness and pride, and there you go. A path to destruction. The low point for me was not understanding why Azurite did not seem interested in pursuing intimacy and was not passionate toward me. I fell for the lie that I must not be enough. I supposed that the "open marriage" route would fuel her passion and satisfy my selfishness. By the time I realized what opening the marriage would cost, it was too late. What a fool I was. To this day, I know who I am in Christ like never before, and no longer struggle with how others view me, but I am still having to work on believing that I am truly loved by Azurite. That I am enough. I can logically recognize the deceit of that lie all day long, and hear her telling me the truth that I am more than enough but the mind can be a difficult thing to change. We are rapidly making progress though, so I am excited for the romantic love to return and believe it will.

In that new beginning in 2012 when I decided that I wanted to have a real, intimate, personal relationship with God, HE MET ME where I was. I can give you account after account of how he has worked miracles over the past four years in me and Azurite individually and in our marriage. Miracles of change, miracles of healing, miracles of forgiveness, of strengthening, of courage. Even the miracle of exposure as Azurite mentioned. His hand has been in this. During our recovery, just about the time things seem unbearable, He opens a door.

In all sincerity, I really do not believe Azurite and I would be here today without our commitment to each other before God. That dark D day, I could find absolutely no reason to stay with her, nor her with me, aside from Him. We made a decision to continue standing by faith and he has honored his word and delivered us. Neither of us are worthy of being married to the other, but God is worthy! And we are worthy through Him! (And therefore we WALK in that worthiness, and our ACTIONS toward each other SHOW that love, as we learn to do this.)

As crazy as it sounds, because of my love for Azurite and because of the serious changes that the Lord has worked in me over the past four years, if going through the same experience with Azurite was the only way for those changes to be made, I would marry Azurite all over again, knowing that I would have to go through what we have been through. Again. I highly recommend that others simply choose to be changed by hearing and doing God's word though, and not choosing to go down a path of destruction to find out that his word is true...

We have a long way to go, but we have come a long way. There were some periods in our recovery where I knew some things were getting missed. I truly believe that MB is the remaining key to our full recovery and I expect that our romantic love will remain as long as we continue practicing the principles taught. Only a couple of weeks into it, we are seeing progress in areas that have plagued us for many years and answers that eluded us.

I am truly grateful to the Harleys for what they are doing. In my opinion, their work is essentially bringing God's design for marriage to a practical level - bringing the cookies down to the bottom shelf. Sometimes there can be so much emotional "fog" in a bad marriage relationship that we literally need instructions on how to walk, putting one foot in front of the other. This practical teaching is what I have found lacking in so many Christian materials and counselors. Harley is teaching us HOW TO LOVE, broken down into doable STEPS, with ACCOUNTABILITY for measurable growth and long-term success.

I will end with this. I know that the common grace, psychological aspects of applying Harley's teaching will work for unbelievers as well as Christians. It is a great thing to have a good marriage, Christian or not. But God did create marriage, and one of its purposes is to mirror his relationship with us. So if you don't know Jesus, as you follow Harley's program to get your marriage on track, I encourage you to listen for the Lord's call to your heart. He wants that same intimacy with you as you are building with your spouse. He created it! And if you seek Him, He is faithful to respond. Your ultimate fulfillment is in Him.

Lord, I ask that you make your love, mercy and grace flow to the broken and hurting who are here. Heal and strengthen those who are in recovery. Celebrate with those who have been through the program and are living in freedom! Continue to be with the Harleys in their work. Fill them with your wisdom, knowledge and discernment. Help them to keep their eyes focused on things of eternal value and bless them with abundant life as they minister your love to others.

Correction: You gave into lust and pimped out your wife.

Moderator's note: Please post on a separate thread from your wife. Do not post on your wife's thread.

SugarCane and Prisca,

Yes, I hurt Azurite terribly. Unconscionably. Immorally. Indefensibly. And in the flesh we live in, irreparably. But God is taking both of our mistakes and turning them into something beautiful. Something redeemed. Something that we hope will result in our ability to be a vessel for Him to work through to help others.

I would say that both "just compensation" and agape love are very much at work in us. A work I believe will be completed. A work that Harley's direction is very much a part of.

Regarding forcing Azurite to do anything, there was a great deal of emotional manipulation on my part, no doubt. I believe Azurite is simply speaking to personal responsibility for her choices, as do I. Reasons, not excuses. But yes, as we all know, often there is a lot of pressure (both ways) between spouses that makes bad decisions look very appealing at the time.

Unless I am mistaken, "pimping" would require payment of consideration to qualify, which did not occur. That comment makes me feel disrespected, and we are here with our story for respectful help. The truth in itself is harsh enough, I believe.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Pimping is a appropriate, finding sexualppartners for your wife. Also, It is generally considered poor form to ask for someone's help then berate them for calling a spade a spade.

Plenty of people will sugar coat the situation. That won't help you recover.

Speaking the truth is not disrespectful. It stings because the truth is awful.

What would you like help with?

We do not need you to explain Azurite's words for us. She is a grown woman, and very well spoken.

Don't mince words ... you GAVE her to someone else, which is essentially pimping her out.

You see, most BHs who come here are clueless, decent blokes who (although they've made some mistakes) are completely blindsided by their wife's infidelity. You, however, not only chose to give your wife to someone else, you pressured her into giving in. That's low. And that's going to be far harder to recover from. A part of her will always remember that you gave her away -- it's going to be a very small, insistent voice in the back of her mind that is very difficult to bury.

What, exactly, was respectable about what you forced your wife through?

So stop bucking it and accept it. What you have done will be seen by a lot of people (especially women) as pimping. And your recovery is going to be harder.

Getting defensive will not help you.

Erastis,

1. Could you write a sentence using ten words or less that states what you did, without trying to say why? My life is too short to try to find it in your massive post.

2. I believe Jesus is the Son of God. But let me tell you that one of the big revelations here is that the way to have a good marriage is the same for believers and unbelievers. It looks very tacky for someone to do this, so please be slower to speak about your religious experience and quicker to do this. You wrote all those words about God and yet still it's impossible for somebody to read your post and see what you did. You are just using God as an excuse to coverup your evil rather than facing it.

3. Can you write a sentence of about ten words or less expressing what your question is for the forum?

Erastus, when you talk about your mistakes, try not to sound like you are singing a hymn to it.

My wife had an affair and I had angry outbursts so bad that my wife had to ask me to leave the house for awhile, but you won't catch us talking about these mistakes in glowing terms.

Moderator,

I apologize. I must have overlooked in the forum rules that husbands and wives are not allowed to be on each others' threads.

I pressured and emotionally manipulated my wife to have sex with other men to satisfy my lust. That is certainly correct. I hurt her beyond imagination. And I do not deserve her or her forgiveness. Yet she chose to forgive and stay. For that I am extremely grateful.

If a more accurate word that excludes receiving money for service is not available, then yes, I pimped my wife. Multiple times. Over months of time. I did not mean to give the impression of avoiding responsibility, and you may not have meant to give the impression of misusing words.

I do not have a problem with realizing the depth of sin and I believe it is crucial to recovery of both spouses. I do think that the best judge of whether I have done that is God, with my wife being a close second. I believe we both did that three years ago, but I am not afraid of being confronted with some new angle. If I have faced it, then I have faced it, right? I should not be offended about a statement of fact, if it's fact.

To realize the depth of my sin is to realize the depth of His forgiveness to me. In that, I find joy.

No, I do not believe in covering sin with grace. However, when a person has been delivered from such a sinful place as I have, it is certainly not tacky to be incredibly grateful and joyful about it, just as Paul was.

I do value the accountability that is offered of pointing out the depth of my depravity. However, I think there is more than one motive and way to do that and not all are constructive.

I do not have a specific question at the moment. I was speaking generally about coming to this board for help. I am sure I will have one soon.

Markos, I guess our situation may be different from many in the sense that we are 3 years along in recovery before coming here. So a lot of the preliminary issues have been worked through. The point being, that we can definitely see light at the end of the tunnel and are walking in a good deal of freedom, although we have issues left to work on.

I certainly realize after the hearty welcome that I have received that there is major hurt on this forum. Hurting people hurt people. I can say with confidence that there really is freedom beyond the hurt, and I hope you find that. I certainly don't intend to make light of our experience or others, but I believe in more than just coping. I believe in freedom, partly because we are beginning to walk in it. (Not just the past 2 weeks.)

Hello Erastis, welcome to Marriage Builders. You are in very good hands with Markos, and I would dearly hope you heed his advice. I would caution you against the temptation to dismiss his advice [he is "hurting"] when you hear something you don't like. Markos and Prisca are years into a healthy recovery and know this program inside and out. Hopefully you can keep an open mind because you are very lucky to receive their help.

Marriage Builders does not regard forgiveness as a necessary component to recovery, but rather just compensation. Do you know the difference? Forgiveness is not appropriate when it is possible for us to pay back and rectify the damage we have caused. So, your wife's forgiveness does not get you off the hook. You need to do those things that correct for your mistakes.

Yes. I have an understanding of just compensation, and have been doing this to a degree the last three years even before I knew of that term. Both of us have. And now that I am learning about it in MB I am and will be able to do this much more thoroughly and intentionally.

My use of the term forgiveness was not written with the intent to exclude just compensation and I believe I mentioned JC previously although it probably was not clear.

I do believe that forgiveness is necessary although I feel it is highly misused. I believe it is especially important for the person who does the forgiving as part of healing and in his relationship with God. Forgiveness does not restore the loss however. Nor does it release a person from punishment under man's law. Restitution must be made where possible. Nor does forgiveness necessarily mean that we place ourselves back into the situation that resulted in injury. To me it is a release for the benefit of the offended.

To clarify, the forgiveness bit above is not a part of MB as far as I know. I am aware of that.

Thank you for prompting clarification. I am only a couple of weeks into MB so I am nowhere near being able to present MB concepts as articulately as many here would.

Here What Is Just Compensation?

Suggestion: be slower to speak and quicker to listen. Listen more.

After reviewing other posts and my original post, I realize that I have made a mistake. In my ignorance, I posted insensitively. I assumed some things about the forum that are wrong. In sharing things that were truly heartfelt, I ironically violated at least three attributes of the Godly love I was trying to speak from. I apologize for that mistake and for the hurt that my insensitivity caused. It has resulted in some valuable feedback in an area which I still need work.

Questions:

1) What is the forum policy for a person posting on their spouse's thread? If I have missed this info somehow, please point me to where it was as there may be other relevant info that I also missed. If this is prohibited completely, could you offer an explanation of how this fits into the concepts of partnership and oneness that Harley speaks of?

2) Could you explain how discussion of marriage topics which would seem to me to be of a highly personal nature between unmarried cross gender posters does not qualify as intimate conversation under MB concepts? I am not clear on this, and why it is OK for this to take place on the forum.

Thanks

Erastis, I don't think there's a policy per se about spouses posting on each other's threads, but it is always advised that spouses have separate threads when they first arrive. It's what was advised to me and my wife when we first came here in 2010.

As far as intimate conversation, I think the number one thing keeping conversation from being intimate here is lack of privacy. You'll notice that private messages are disabled on this board, and that's so for a very serious reason. Also, you'll notice that people here aren't trying to fill your love bank since they aren't married to you, and thus won't shy away from criticism where they feel it is necessary.

That said, I think somebody could still fall in love even on the board if the conversation were of a nature of "having your back," i.e., expressing empathy and telling you what a bad guy your spouse is, etc. But you'll find that's not what happens: instead people focus on coaching you, telling you what you can do better and what you are doing poorly, according to the Marriage Builders concepts. That's going to bother you rather than make love bank deposits.

Would you please clarify "when they first arrive"? I was notified via an abrupt thread split. It would be nice if I could be advised at this time on how things are expected to work from this point on - when it is acceptable, to what extent, etc.


After witnessing the many love units deposited into my wife's love bank by other men through conversations she had in public settings that were acceptable by the world's standards, that answer is a bit hard to chew on. I respect your opinion and experience, though. It still seems to me that this may be a compromise in participating in this forum and that I need to be on guard in this area.

IF it appears that a man replies on my wife's thread and is meeting an emotional need, what do you advise as a proper response? (What is the forum's position on this?)

I suppose one challenge on this forum is how to be positive without depositing LU. To me, there are a considerable number of posts that appear to be unnecessarily negative in the name of being helpful, and also seem to violate the concept of basic respect from one human being to another. I would like to know if there are ways to speak truth in love, which is often painful but never malicious, without depositing LU. Thoughts?

Thanks

Yep. Knock it off.

You are neither smarter, more insightful, or more sophisticated than countless other waywards who have waltzed in here and tried this same tactic. It won't work for you, either.

Your question suggests that the MB forum should not allow the discussion of marriage topics between people of the opposite sex. Is that what you're getting at?

The explanation I have seen is that, when in the past spouses posted on each other's threads, they argued with each other. The thread degenerated into a "yes you did" ..."no I didn't" scenario.

This is the case with "help" threads - where a spouse needs help with a problem in the marriage. It isn't necessarily true on a lighter thread, for example in the Other Topics forum, or if a thread discusses one of Dr Harley's concepts, like Undivided Attention. If one spouse starts a thread asking how a couple with young children can achieve 15 hours per week of UA time out of the home, for example, it would not necessarily be disruptive for the other spouse to join in, and I have not seen a spouse told to leave a thread such as that.

However, if a thread on UA (or any other concept) turned into one where the second spouse joined in and began complaining about the first spouse's behaviour, they would be encouraged to create separate threads, rather than argue with each other on the thread.

The culture here is that we encourage people to post for help with the concepts. When they post, they are encouraged to read Dr Harley's own words, and listen to the radio show, with the aim of learning how to resolve their own conflicts. We do brainstorm ideas snd make suggestions, but mainly, we encourage people to learn how to apply MB for themselves. And since that's what we do, we find it unproductive for spouses to disagree with each other, and argue about the facts, or about each other's motivations and feelings.

In fact, it occurs to me now that what we do on the public forums is an extension of what Dr Harley and the coaches do for spouses on the online programme. Dr Harley rarely counsels spouses together in the same place. He does it sometime on the radio show, but, having done the online programme myself, I don't think he does it there. Each spouse fills in the initial forms separately (the EN questionnaire, etc), and then fills in and submits the weekly lesson charts separately. Each spouse speaks to their coach separately, in the initial phone call. If one spouse sends an email to their coach, this isn't automatically copied to the other spouse.

Dr Harley has explained that he finds it unproductive to coach spouses together, because they argue. We have found the same thing.

"Don't post on each other's threads" is not written down in the Terms of Service, and therefore it is not an official policy. It is not actually against the TOS. I have only ever seen experienced posters helpfully advise newcomers not to do it, for the reasons I have given.

FYI This forum is action oreinted. Unlike most boards, we discourage blogging; it is a time-waster.( If you follow MB , you are usually too busy to blog.)This is partly why you are getting these sort of responses- we are trying to figure out what you want to fix. Then we can advise you properly according to MB. (We also find debating semantics annoying--time wasted. )

Lol, we are too direct to make many LB deposits.


I reiterate, what is your question? Is there a problem with which you need help?

It's really not that big a deal. You haven't done anything wrong, and you aren't being punished or reprimanded. The mods just did a little cleanup to redirect the discussion, is all.

You are really, really defensive. I like to say that if you are defending yourself, it's a good clue you are being defensive. Unfortunately, being defensive won't serve you well.

And you're not being asked to do anything that the rest of us weren't asked to do, either.

"After witnessing the many love units deposited into my wife's love bank by other men through conversations she had in public settings that were acceptable by the world's standards, that answer is a bit hard to chew on. I respect your opinion and experience, though. It still seems to me that this may be a compromise in participating in this forum and that I need to be on guard in this area."

We are not socializing here, though. We are discussing Marriage Builders concepts in a public setting. It is a much safer environment than even marriage counseling, because it is public to the whole forum.

Have you told Dr. Harley about this?

I think you need to quit falling all over yourself apologizing. The forum rules and the ways people will tell you to post are there because they HELP YOU and your wife, not because other people are hurt by you missing them.

Erastis,

You are the initiator for the outside sexual activity in your marriage - you are the wayward/unfaithful one. You need to quit validating your wife's impression that she had an affair. You are the one who had the affair. Recall that when she questioned you on whether this was right or wrong, you told her the responsibility was on you. So take responsibility. Your marriage has suffered from YOUR sexual infidelity.