(sheepishly steps up to podium)

Hi, I'm M, the wife and the BS. I never knew what an EA was until recently. For 11 years, my husband, R, has been involved with one of his former coworkers in another state. Yes, you read the year count correctly. And yes, he is going to take a polygraph to answer how far it got beyond the EA because, like many of you reading this, how could 'nothing' have happened in all that time.

I'm not a jealous person. I have opposite sex friends who are also friends of the marriage. By that, I mean that I don't see them without hubby. I share any and all correspondence (there isn't much as most live in other cities). So I wasn't too alarmed when hubby mentioned in passing that he'd had dinner while he was away to the corporate office out of town. Yes, I know better... NOW. It's hell being trusting. Sigh.

What I didn't know: that she had left the company. That she had tried to get two other married men to join her for dinners and that they declined. That hubby didn't. That they were having dinner alone. That it happened every time he went to Colorado. I also didn't know that she called him about once a month (he swears he never called her from his work line here - believe it? I don't). That she emailed him humor with him as the only recipient. That she also emailed him at his work email to just chat. Hubby works from home, btw.

Spidey senses kicked in late 2009 when he called during a two week trip there and told me that he and AP had been to Estees park that Saturday and he'd seen elk and wolves. Wait. Just the two of them? Yep. Can you say highly inappropriate? So I asked what was going on with AP. He said nothing - just friends. I questioned him and he admitted that it was just the two of them, that he'd also gone to dinner with just her a few days ago. I explained that this was no longer appropriate and that he should not see her again. He insisted that they were just friends. We fought.

When he came home, he assured me that my fears were unfounded, that AP was nothing to look at, just a friend and that was that. Silly me. Over the next three years, whenever he had to go to the Colorado office, he met with her and had dinner. Alone. We fought some more. I yelled, I reasoned, I cried. He said I was being silly, that she was just a friend and nothing more. He couldn't see how it looked.

From 2009 to 2017, there have been two years where he didn't go to Colorado at all. For some reason, he thought that by showing me the humor she sent him would alleviate my fears. We still fought. He insisted that if I'd just come out there and meet her, I'd see they were just friends. In 2015, the last time he went out there, we had a doozy of a fight. He admitted to having dinner planned with her the next day. I insisted he cancel. He wouldn't. We fought. Next day, he calls and pretends nothing happened. I beg him to cancel. I cry. I mean I'm bawling. He doesn't. I call when I know he is at dinner, he tells me they'd just been seated and he'd call me after he got back to his room. I told him I loved him. He just hung up. He did call me about 2 hours later and insisted that nothing happened. Just dinner. Just friends. I'm angry as hell.

In January, he was scheduled to go again. I'd recently had surgery, so I couldn't travel with him. Before he left, I asked if he was planning on seeing her. He admitted they'd already made dinner plans. I hit the roof. I just wasn't going to take it anymore. I know, what an idiot I've been, right? But you want to trust them. Anyway, I told him to cancel. He wouldn't. I gave him three days and more arguments, reasoning, etc. Nope. He wouldn't cancel. So I told him that if he didn't, I was leaving him. I'd file for divorce.

Boom.

He ended up talking to his sister who said that she could definitely see my side. He hung up the phone and said, he'd call AP the next day. I insisted he call right then. In front of me. He did. She seemed a little confused, but seemed okay with it. He told her that I didn't like them spending time alone. I had asked him to tell her their friendship was off - that he could never see her again and why - that it was not appropriate. He said he forgot, that he was nervous. He called back and this time, I was listening in. He initially didn't want to do that as he felt that if she ever found out, she'd be upset. Insert a million expletives here because since he wasn't ever supposed to be in contact with her, WHY did he care? Besides, I was the one falling apart.

He told her that they couldn't be friends anymore, that I didn't like it, that I thought it was inappropriate (yeah like he couldn't have agreed by this point, right?). She asked, "Why now? Why does she have a problem now?" He told her that I had a problem from the start, but he just hadn't been listening. She said, "Okay. Okay." and they hung up. She called back a minute later (I'm still listening), and she asks if it was something she'd said or done. He repeated his story but told her, no - that she hadn't done anything (grrrrrr!!!!!!). They hung up.

He goes to Colorado. I'm a wreck. He calls 3-4 times a day. Puts me on video so I can see his room, see he is alone. He knows I'm tracking him with the phone GPS. He gives me his email password on his work computer. I go through all his mail. It looks like he was the one initiating the dinners, not her. But I do see where she has emailed him more frequently than he says. Emails are pretty benign except for one years ago where he asked for her cell and said they should get together for dinner or something when he came out next time. She sends him email telling her when her birthday is, he responds with a simple happy birthday. She sends him emails talking about her work, layoffs, her car, her health. Some have responses. Some have been deleted. One reply, she says he sounded pretty down last time they talked. He tells her he's been down, no big deal, but hey - good news is that he'll be there X date. They should get together for dinner or something. No reply. I'm assuming they spoke after that. Always his work line, never his cell unless he was out there. Another found email upset me - she emailed saying that he shouldn't freak out if he sees an email from email acct X, her private email because sometimes she wants to have privacy from the work servers. I check his private email. Nothing. I find a second gmail acct of his. I can't get into it.

I am devastated. He hadn't told me about ALL the dinners. He and I talk about this. He admits to having dinner with her once, every visit where he has been out there for his one week trips, twice when it was a two week trip. He didn't tell me about most of them because he knew I wouldn't like it. He still insisted they were friends. He said that HE knew there was nothing, so he thought I should've believed him. Yeah, you know I went off on that one. He apologized, said he knew how it looked - now. That he was sorry. That he wasn't seeing her this trip. That she hadn't called him. I checked the cell records and at least she wasn't calling his cell and he wasn't calling her via it, either. He swore he wasn't using the hotel phone or a work phone. I checked his email - nothing from her there, either. He insists he doesn't recall setting up the other private gmail acct, never remembers using it, and asks if by chance I did since I'm the one usually creating all our accounts. I do not recall doing it. I have used every password I can think of and cannot access that acct.

He comes home from trip. We go to therapy where we were told to read Surviving an Affair. He is still insistant that they never had sex, never fooled around, never kissed, never held hands - nothing. Nada. It was just a friendship. I ask if they'd been elsewhere other than the park. He says he thinks the park was with the male coworkers and doesn't recall it being with her, but differs to me since apparently, my memory is better. Does admit to taking her to two movies and he went to one of her softball games. I'm back to being more than devastated and angry. He says he didn't tell me because - you guessed it - that I'd be upset if I knew. Admits that she came to his hotel to pick him up for dinner, movies, etc., but insists that she never came to his room because he says THAT would be weird. WTF? And why couldn't she just meet him at the restaurant? He says that she'd just offer and they'd ride together. Double WTF. And he didn't think there was anything odd or wrong about it at the time. Understand now that it was. Says that looking back, he got the idea she was interested - not because she or he ever said a thing or talked about it - but because she started combing her hair and wearing makeup. I ask why he didn't end it then. He said because he wasn't interested and since she wasn't flirting or asking him for more, he just let it go. (head desk).

He sends the NC letter to her. She explodes with a reply - downright nasty, telling him that whatever is wrong with me is not her problem and that she's totally innocent and a Christian. Riiiight. Because proper Christian women go to dinners and movies and stuff alone with married men traveling out of town. She says she's hurt and has more pride than to allow me to accuse her of an affair. That they were friends. That he was a mentor. That I need help. That she never wants to hear from him again because as his friend, she deserved better than the NC letter he'd sent. I notice that she has taken my email out of the cc portion and inserted his work email address as well as just replying to our combined personal email account.

I'm livid. I show him the email where he proceeds to explain how she must be taking it. Really? REALLY?

He swears it's done. Says he can't imagine what he was thinking. Still insists nothing happened - not even flirting (yeah, right). He has cried many times. Swears he felt nothing for her - nothing. Says there wasn't anything special at all about her except that he had someone to go to dinner with. Uh-huh. Like going out with any of his present coworkers wasn't enough? Anyway, he seems to be bending over backward and says it was because he liked being a teen again - no room to clean, no dishes to wash, no bills, no worries. That he sees now that he was dating her, but didn't feel like that then. Just friends. He's beyond sorry and will do whatever it takes to set things right, that he was a shi***y husband and he can't say he is sorry enough. I still have access and passwords to all emails, all devices. He asks if I'd like to go through his browser history everywhere including his devices and work machine. No problem going through anything he has without asking - ever. Swears they have had no contact since the NC letter.

Found out through questioning that she had given him a pirated copy of a album. WHAT? He hadn't mentioned this before when I asked him about gifts. But now, he remembers. I tell him he can't keep presents. I buy him an honest copy from iTunes. He agrees to toss it but doesn't throw it away. I tell him to throw it away. He apologizes and says he should have done it right then when I asked. He tells me he'll delete her copy from our library and download mine. I wait. I wait 10 days. I explode. He instantly apologizes and does what he should have done to start with. Swears it just didn't occur to him that this was a sore spot. REALLY? Ugh!

Now, he writes down amends. Initiates topics. Asks to read more books. Asks for triggers so we can talk about them.

Some days I feel crazy for even trying to stay. I feel foolish. Some days I believe part of what he's saying. Other days? I don't think I can ever believe him or trust him again.

Thanks for listening. I know so many of you have been where I am. We are both in therapy.

Hi, BHeart,

Do you have Dr. Harley's book Surviving an Affair? There are a lot of checklists for recovery in there you are going to want to follow.

Has your husband made it impossible for OW to contact him again? Neither one of you needs to hear her spew her opinions any more.

Yes, we've read it (along with Shirley Glass's Not Just Friends, and another book who's author escapes me at the moment - Worthy of Her Trust).

Checklist. He can't change his work email or his work number without telling his work why. He can't tell them he can't come back to Colorado, so from here on, I'm going with him.

As for traveling, it's a catch-22 situation. I can't always go with him everywhere, but will when he goes to CO. He could find another job, but then he wouldn't be working from home and that might put him into a worse situation. He has agreed to allow any and all tracking software on his devices. I can add any listening software, too.

We have enthusiastically agreed upon a 3-minute call back. I can call him at any time and he will answer or call back in under 5. He knows I will call him in the middle of the night via FaceTime and that he should answer immediately.

He agrees to take the Mike Pence stance of never being alone with a woman - ever, under any circumstance. That he cannot strike up non-business emails with other female coworkers. That I see all emails, even the deleted ones from here out. He won't delete browser history until I have seen it and am with him.

He's still taking the poly, though. I'm not buying that they 'didn't even flirt' and that if he'd had a video and audio of every contact, I'd see that.

ETA: He travels SO infrequently, too.

Okay - but what's to stop HER travelling to any of his other travelling places - the ones where you won't be?

How will you know she hasn't just stepped out of the room while you FaceTime?

How will you know that he is doing this when he is travelling?

I can selectively delete my browsing history, so that some disappears and the rest is visible. How do you know he won't do this?

Short term affairs are tough enough to bust up, but if you do want to save your M, then you will need to take NO shortcuts, and go way overboard on building EPs (extraordinary precautions) so that you will be truly safe from ever experiencing this pain again.


Is there some reason why he is not willing to tell his work why? That is a big that tells me that he is not serious. He needs to change the work number and all emails. He needs to block ANY way that she can contact him. If that is impossible, then he needs to quit that job.

You won't recover unless you agree to never spend another night apart. Dr. Harley has stated that there is a very narrow path to recovery from an affair, and you cannot cherry-pick and use only the recovery steps that are comfortable.

It is good that he SAYS this, but with waywards, we need to watch what they DO. How will you KNOW that he DOES this when he is away from you? How will you KNOW that you have seen the deleted emails and browser history?
I would schedule the poly this week. Do it yourself and then announce the appointment to him.

Welcome to MB.

It is great that you are having him take a poly. You are right that none of us buy into the assertion that he never had any physical contact with OW in all that time. I am very sure there is more you don't know.

Give him a list of questions, on paper, everything you want to know about the affair. You can only ask 3-4 questions on the actual test, but he doesn't need to know that or which questions will be asked. This is a way to get an answer for all of your questions. It is not uncommon for more information to come out literally 5 minutes before the test, so be prepared for this.

You really need to take the EP's regarding his work more seriously. Even if you could monitor his every move when he is traveling (which you can't), realize that every time he travels you will be constantly triggered and thinking about the 'what ifs.' This will make it impossible to recover, and will cause so much mental anguish to you. Is that what you want? That is not worth his job.

Did you expose his affair?

You should tell them why. "Don't tell people what happened" isn't on the recovery plan.

My wife would call my job and let them know that I'd had an affair while traveling for them and let them know that she was going to divorce me if I continued to travel or wasn't able to change my number. And she'd talk to a lawyer about the possibility of suing the company if they in any way facilitated me having an affair.

SugarCane:

Q: Okay - but what's to stop HER travelling to any of his other travelling places - the ones where you won't be?
A: Spyware on his phone, for one. I could also hire a detective.

Q: How will you know she hasn't just stepped out of the room while you FaceTime?
A: If she can get dressed and out the door before he has to answer, that'd be pretty impressive. BUT I will also have spywear on his phone where I can just turn on the audio at any time.

Q: How will I know he is doing this while traveling?
A: I suppose the spyware audio. While I won't have it on ALL the time, he won't know when.

Yes, he can selectively delete browsing history on his work computer. But Since I also work from home, I have now moved my office next to his. I can hear his calls. I can take a peek at his computer at any time. Yes, he might have a few seconds to hide the screen, but that would throw a flag and I've told him that.

Blindsigthed:

Q: Is there some reason why he is not willing to tell his work why? That is a big redflag that tells me that he is not serious. He needs to change the work number and all emails. He needs to block ANY way that she can contact him. If that is impossible, then he needs to quit that job.
A: They'd probably fire him and my income can't support us. He has blocked her via his work email. He's blocked the number on his office phone. Sure, he could remove it. Now that my desk is next to his, I'd hear her voice. As for the email, sure, he could unblock that, too. But he doesn't know when I'll ask to see the email rules. If that's turned off, I'll know. As for our disposable email, she's already been blocked. I didn't block her from mine just to see if she will try something from there.

Q: You won't recover unless you agree to never spend another night apart. Dr. Harley has stated that there is a very narrow path to recovery from an affair, and you cannot cherry-pick and use only the recovery steps that are comfortable.
A: True. He could essentially start something new elsewhere, or she could show up where he is. But there's the spyware and I could essentially hire a detective.

Q: It is good that he SAYS this, but with waywards, we need to watch what they DO. How will you KNOW that he DOES this when he is away from you? How will you KNOW that you have seen the deleted emails and browser history?
A: I ask him to perform a recovery on his deleted emails - Outlook shows deleted emails that sit on the server. As for the browser? Nothing really to stop him, I suppose. Regarding what he does when not with me, I can't be everywhere all the time. But the spyware can.

And yes, I already have the questions lined up and am in the process of selecting a qualified and hopefully trustworthy polygraph tester in our area.

Unwritten:
He has seen 10 questions. He doesn't know which 4 I will choose. He's answered them. But we know about that, don't we? He is insistent that they both were perfect angels at all times except for the appropriateness of being alone to start with. Uh huh. There's an interstate in GA for sale, too. Slightly charred. I call [censored] and lies. He wouldn't have fought me so hard for just a friend fo so long. He wouldn't have left me bawling on the phone for just a friend. Well, unless he's the most heartless [censored] on the planet, which is a whole different situation.

So yeah. Polygraph. And he might have to take one every year for a while to ensure he stays on the straight and narrow. Expensive, but probably worth it.

Triggers. Where to begin? I have anxiety attacks at night now, with him in the house. It makes me go back to every night he's out there, regardless that I could see his location on the Find My Phone app. I still thought she was there.

And yes, I exposed the affair big time. Friends, family, neighbors, and a coworker of his.

Kids?

Did you expose to anyone on OW's side?

Have you listened to the clips in here?
Dr. Harley on how to deal with triggers

Hello BH, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for the reasons that have brought you here. If you are serious about recovery, it will take extraordinary precautions to prevent an affair. In order to create romantic love in your marriage, you will need to be together every night. That means he either finds a job that keeps him home or you go with him every time. None of the "precautions" you mention will save your marriage. Your plan is an impediment to recovery. Unfortunately, you cannot cut corners and recover your marriage. [believe me, many have tried] Please read this checklist:

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

And I'm absolutely not defending him. Not a chance. Anyone who could omit facts like that when they knew the reasons why their spouse didn't approve, that anyone could let someone they love cry and plead not to do something and then do it anyway? Yeah. There is NO defending that. And anyone who could do that is capable of anything else.

So no. I don't buy for a second that he fought me tooth and nail over a friendship (and if he did, what does that even say?)

Then there was the OW and how she handled it. If it'd been me? Well, I wouldn't have been spending alone time with a married man. But, if I did have a meal with one once and the wife said something? I'd be SO apologetic. Not defensive.

There are no children on either side. OW is single, never married. Neither WS nor the OW have any social media accounts. Hubby has always hated them and not very technical. OW says she's a Christian, but I have no idea what church or denomination she is.

I would have LOVED to expose the affair on her side, but without social media and without family member names or a pastor to tell, who would I tell?

Did you already google her name (with and without her hometown and/or company name), email address and phone nr? Google might surprise you.

You say that they'd probably fire him and that your income can't support the two of you...well...I was in the same boat after my H had a twelve year sexual affair. After six months of a (worse than the original discovery) gut-wrenching FALSE recovery, which happened to be four months after I had ovarian cancer surgery...I finally grew some ...errr...confidence in myself (with the help of this forum) and declared that he quit his job that DAY or he leave. He chose to quit.

I say this in the kindest way, since your husband's A was also long term...Have you considered that since your husband can see that you value income above your marriage, that he may be using that to gaslight you into submission?

I've thought of this. And oddly, I'm more about getting my ducks in a row while I also peek over his shoulder several times a day. He says he's done. Says he's relieved. Do I believe it? Not taking his word for it, that's for sure.

I am so sorry to hear what happened, BlindSighted. Ovarian cancer. Wow.

And yes, I've Googled her name, her phone, her email. She's fairly off grid. Probably because she's done this crap before.

Is it mean that at least I can say that the ONE photo I found of her online (I DID find where she works) that she's hideous looking? I know, doesn't mean a thing, but it's the small pleasures, I suppose.

Now, it's been three months since D-Day. No contact that I'm aware of despite digging. Are you guys suggesting I should email the manager of the Hyundai dealership in Boulder?

Anyway, I feel it's no coincidence that she chose yet another job where there are more men than women.

We've gone through the checklist. We've even come up with a list of things that are considered over the line, things about to cross a line, things that he's never to do. He signed it. He's offered up signing a post-nup as well.

With me working right where I can see what he's up to and full access to his devices, he's going to have to be beyond devious in contacting her. Not to say he can't, but if I honestly have to follow him to the bathroom or not allow him to access a device without me present for fear he'll contact her, then she can have him. I refuse to play the pick me dance anymore. Treat me like a queen, I'll treat you like a king. Treat me like a game and I'll show you how it's played. Depends on what he wants to lose. Me? If he does it again, I lose a cheater. No big deal.

Yeah, as you can see, I am still very very angry and hurt. It's going to take a looooong time. He will never ever have my full trust again. Not even close. He keeps asking how he could do such a thing - be cruel and betray his wife, his best friend. I keep telling him I'd like to know the answer to that as well, but he's the only one with the answer.

Hi Melody! Thank you. Yes, I'm serious about recovery and I hope that he's telling the truth when he says he is, too. What we've done on the list:

*He has revealed info (but how do we EVER know it's complete?)
*He has made a commitment and promised he'll never contact her in any way ever again and will immediately tell me if she does the same. I must see all correspondence, too. All emails (but he has blocked her, so unless he UNblocks her...) She's blocked on his work line. Cell is changed. I monitor his other personal account and she's blocked there, too.
*He wrote an incredible NC letter. Blunt, to the point, and spot-on. When she replied and threw me under the bus, he asked permission to email her back with me sitting there and told her that she WAS equally guilty, that it WAS inappropriate, and that he insisted that she respect me and my feelings and to bugger off - what didn't she understand about NC? No reply from her after that.
* We both work from home AND are spending evenings and weekends together. I can call him ANY time if he's away - even to the store, and he must answer. We are working on doing more enjoyable things together. He knows he must court me again and says he's enjoying it very much. Do I believe that? He seems like he's having a great time. He's doting. But we'll see if he can keep up the courtship over time.
* I do all the bills. Look over every statement. Every call. Everything must go on a charge card. If he can't and does spend cash, I have to have the receipt. Once a year, I'll go over his credit reports from all 3 bureaus for due diligence that he's not opening up accounts elsewhere.
* We are spending lots more recreation time together. I've challenged him to find fun ways to court me again.
* Since he doesn't work in the same state and he works at home, I think it's best to keep the current job as I know where he is 99.9% of the time here and that he's not in an office with other 'temptations.'
* We are avoiding (not eliminating) overnight separations. He is pushing back on ALL travel and it looks like he probably won't be going anywhere in 2017. If he does, it's one state over and there and back by nightfall. No different than a day job on those occasions.
* Full technical accountability to the best of my ability. Spyware. All passwords. Access to accounts and devices and VM at any time of my choosing.
* Affair exposed to everyone he cares about.

* He also has to go to therapy with me and without me.
* He has to pass the poly.
* He's been tasked with ways to date me, ways to show me he is serious (the once a year poly and the checking of his accounts etc, the credit report checks were actually his idea).
* When family comes to visit, he has to sit down with them and talk about what he did. Not me, him.
* He must take notes of my triggers and then 'make amends.' In other words, he has to write down what happened, how he thinks I must feel, why he did what he did that caused the trigger, an apology, and how he sees the future with this trigger based on actions he has/will take.
* He has to work on his selfishness and lack of empathy issues and talk to me about his therapy on this.
* He has to demonstrate changes.
* We have weekly meetings to discuss progress/set backs, emotional needs, discoveries, etc.
* We are going through books/podcasts on better communication in marriage, other ways to improve marriage aside from the affair issue.
* We are looking for a hobby that we will BOTH enjoy doing together.
* Post-nup
* Exercise together (it's supposed to help with oxytocin - the bonding chemical).

Have you listened to the radio clips in here? Beware of Bad Counselors

No, I haven't. I listen to it now. Thank you!

One thing that stands out to me in the list you gave of things you are doing, is that it seems like you are very angry (understandable) and you do not plan to stop reminding him of this anytime soon.

A key element to recovering from an affair is to *never talk about it again.* It is a very hard thing to do. As the BS you want to keep hammering them with it, making them re explain it, trying desperately to find a way to make them understand just exactly what they did to you. But you can't do that. You can do it if you want to stay in a miserable marriage forever, but not if you want a recovered marriage.

Get all the information you need. Follow through with the poly. Follow through with the EP's. But once you have all the information you need, and are comfortable that the affair is no longer happening, you need to stop talking about it and focus on creating a great marriage that was better than before. Do you think you can do this?

What are you trying to accomplish with the therapy?

Often people go to therapy to find out why the affair occurred. I can tell you why and it won't cost you a dime. Your H had an affair because he has poor boundaries around women. If he did not have poor boundaries (and did not travel for work) it would not have happened. That is what EP's are for, to create boundaries around your marriage that make an affair next to impossible to have.

These things seem very demoralizing to me.

Also, telling him to go to therapy for his selfishness and lack of empathy is hugely disrespectful. This will not help you create a better marriage.

On top of that, if you spend time looking for "deeper" reasons beyond that why an affair occurred, Dr. Harley says that you are very likely to come up with reasons that are incorrect.

http://marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=06849/play_segment.cfm?sid=06849

Eventually, yes. The fallout is still very fresh. The cruelty surrounding some of what he did has deeply affected me.

We do have some good moments. I don't hammer him constantly. Sometimes he will initiate talking about it - how he feels, wanting to read, ways he can assure me, etc. Other times, I have questions that pop up. Anxiety attacks.

Then, there are times when he just wants to know if I am truly in love with him or if I'll stay or why he could do this or there's a trigger and while we never fight, we talk and that doesn't come without pain. Sometimes, the pain is good. We understand each other a little more. Other times, it's just a build up.

Will there come a time when this subject is taboo? No. Will there be a time when it's a bad/sad time remembered and there will be triggers and he'll hopefully do something to make me laugh or smile or show some other 'I know, it hurts, I'm here and I'm still sorry' action? I hope so. I hope that there will be a time when we don't think about it the way we both do now.

I certainly count on a time when I don't have to watch him like a hawk. I hate it. It's not me. It's not the way I should have to be. But short term? It's what I must do.

Long term? We will both always have open access to everything. No secrets. Go through my purse, or I'll go through his wallet to find money, a CC, a forgotten lotto ticket, sunglasses, whatever. No email account is private. No device. GPS always enabled on both our phones. Total transparency.

He is perfectly fine with never having female friends. We can have friends that are couples, but for either of us to go out alone with someone of the opposite sex or spend time in their company alone (don't go inside heir house without one of us or the other spouse present, etc)? It's something to be avoided like the plague.

Actions that the other find too flirtatious or crossing the line? No problem. Agreed upon definitions? If it's that important to one spouse, it's important to both. Going forward, it's HusbandCam or WifeCam. What would the other think or feel if they saw or heard what was going on? We both agree on them and are reasonable. Certain words from others who might signal poaching? Firmly put the poacher in their place. Extract from the situation. Tell the other. Go through our credit reports together every year? Those are lifelong.

The postnup? It's totally useless if you don't need it. It's just a way for the WS to show their sincerity that nothing like this will happen again. That was his two cents, btw. The poly? Due to inconsistencies, the longevity, and the situation, unfortunately necessary, I think. It'll hopefully put some of my fears to rest.

The exercise and hobbies and communication building are going to all be good things overall.

He had poor boundaries, true. But when I told him he had crossed proper boundaries during the affair he refused to believe it. So yes, there is a checklist we both have agreed on that are our new boundaries (and yes, they are above Dr. Haley's in some ways. It's what we both felt best.) We both agree they are totally fair.

But it is impossible to ever say there will never ever be a night apart. Besides, things can happen in the daytime, too. How many affairs happen and are ongoing where the spouse isn't traveling? A lot, I bet. Remove what we can. Have other methods in place for the once MAYBE twice a year he has to be gone otherwise. ALWAYS go to Colorado with him.

Talk to his family? It's accountability since they already know the bare basics and now want to know what happened. They don't need all the details, but a face-to-face explanation that comes from him instead of me contacting them and saying, "Help! This is what's going on!" is fair. It's his side of the story the way he tells it. He hates having disappointed them and making it real will help him not do it again. It gets the 800 pound elephant out of the room.

Deeper meaning: aside from the boundaries, it was the WAY he treated me. I do think that's important. Besides, if it stems from selfishness - his reason for what he did - and he doesn't want to be that person, he needs help doing so. He's said he looks back on a lot of things in his life and sees how selfish and immature he's been. It's not a switch he can suddenly flip. If it's nothing more than someone to guide him or talk to that isn't me, I think that's a good thing. I don't have the best perspective for him on this at the moment and could do more harm than good. His actions damaged our relationship. No sticking our heads in the sand and refusing to talk about it or find ways to help him be less selfish and more empathetic.

If he can't sleep or I can't sleep, and the other asks how the other slept, we're honest. Then the other asks what happened - what can they do. Meetings on our needs and what's going on? Totally fair. I tend to save questions and stuff for them. Him, too. Weekly for now because we have a lot to work through. Eventually, our plans are monthly. We are working on what our core values are and how best to protect those - some are beyond this affair thing, such as finances, retirement, family, etc.

Signing a couple pieces of paper on agreement isn't the end all. A start, but only that. He signed a marriage certificate and took vows after all.

ETA: I also think this is beyond boundaries. It's a matter of respect for your spouse. It's a matter of care and empathy. Don't have it? Find out why. Fix it if possible.

The only way that will happen is to leave the affair in the past. Once you have the information you need for extraordinary precautions to be taken, and extraordinary precautions are in place so that it will never happen again, you have to stop talking about it. You don't bring it up, and neither does he.

Remove triggers from your life so that you are not reminded.

If you do bring the affair up, it will be like ripping a scab off a wound. And it will trigger and keep all the feelings of betrayal fresh. Neither one of you will be able to heal, much less your marriage.

No, it's not. Couples follow this extraordinary precaution all the time. And if you don't, your marriage will be at risk.

All marriages are at risk regardless what you follow. All marriages. He could have a tryst locally just as easily. He could have an on-line affair and never travel. He could have to go to see his family for something. Essentially, something could happen there since we're not together.

Triggers. There will always be triggers. You may not need to talk about them every time, but there will always be the affair in the back of the couple's head like a stain. A waitress with the same name. A song. The name of a town. A scene on TV. Couples can get past them, but the trigger will always be there for both parties. It's how you handle it down the road. A gentle touch, a joke, a hug, a loving glance. Something that says, "Ouch" and the other says, "I know. I'm here" and the other says "thank you."

How many couples have you worked with who have recovered from an affair?

You realize you are talking to a board of folks who have been through affairs, right? And we followed a very specific program of recovery, and are beyond happily recovered.

So we kind of know what we are talking about. I would suggest, since you are suffering from fresh wounds, that you slow down and listen to those who have been there and know how to heal. You can't be the doctor in this situation -- you are the injured one.

Dr. Harley's program of recovery works, if followed. But it must be followed closely. Any cherry-picking or deviation from the plan will end in disaster. We have seen it happen over, and over, and over again.

This is not true. Marriages that do not follow extraordinary precautions are always at risk. Marriages that fall victim to a serial cheater (meaning someone that goes looking for an affair) are always at risk -- and those are rare.

But your average marriage, if following extraordinary precautions, is not at risk.

Not if he's following extraordinary precautions.

Been there. Done that. There's extraordinary precautions for that, too. It doesn't negate the necessity of the other extraordinary precautions, such as never spending the night apart.

Not if he's following extraordinary precautions. This is a lifestyle change, you see.

Not if you remove them.

We are at 7 years out from my affair, and our marriage is "stain free." No, the affair does not have to always be in the back of the couple's head. It can, and will, fade into the past as a distant memory that you rarely, IF EVER, think about. IF you follow extraordinary precautions and a program to restore the love in your marriage.

Avoid that waitress.

Avoid that song.

Move.

Do not watch that show. Or that type of show. Or TV at all.

If the trigger remains, then the couple does not move past the affair.

Yes, I agree it's how you handle it. If you handle it by removing the trigger from your life and not discussing the trigger or the affair, then you will move on and can build a wonderful and romantic marriage. You will recover.

You are romanticizing triggers. And I am telling you that there is something even greater out there. What you have written sounds sweet, and soothing, and romantic. But, your husband saying "I know, I am here," will not be enough. A touch, a joke (really??), a hug will not be enough. It will not fill the gaping hole in your heart or your marriage. You will crave more. And more. And he will not be able to do anything to soothe the ache. The solution is to remove that which is causing the painful reminder.

You seem to be spending a lot of time and energy educating us on how to recover from an affair. Realize that not only have many of us been there, but we are regular posters who have been posting here for years and have read thousands of stories just like yours. We have seen couples who embraced Dr Harley's strategies for recovery, and how they have flourished. And we have seen the opposite.

In other words, you are not the expert here. Honestly, neither are we. Dr Harley is the expert, he has been helping couples recover from infidelity for over 40 years. We have just witnessed how deviating from his plan is devastating to couples, and do not want to see that happen to you.

Once you have all of the information about the affair, you BOTH should also stop talking about it. This is a very important piece to recovery. Many of us have seen couples who do every other part of recovery but this one, and years later are still unhappy. Why? Because they are still talking about the affair! For the BS it continues to keep the pain front of mind, and for the WS it makes them feel like they can never put this mistake in the past and that their BS will never let them forget about it.

Bringing up painful experiences from the past over and over again does not heal you, it simply continues to bring the unpleasant past into the present. It is counter productive to recovery.

If you are referring to things that continue to bring the affair into the present, this should not be on the list. Even if your WS agrees, that doesn't mean it is good for your marriage. He could agree to robbing a bank together for recreational companionship, but that would not make it good for your marriage.

It will keep you constantly triggered, and make him feel beat down and hopeless. I am guessing that is not your goal.

Have you listened to these radio clips?

You can't always avoid. We don't live in the same town. Doesn't mean it'll never come up in someone else's conversation or on TV, etc. Waitress name & not going back, sure but that's too late for that trigger, isn't it?

Boundaries are things we do to protect ourselves. But they're not behavior modifications. Other things are in place because although ultimately, people are free to do as they will, there are consequences.

Cause and effect, AKA we are free to act, but not free of the consequences

In dog training, if a dog continues to bark at men in hats, you can A) let them bark at men in hats, B) scold them C) don't walk them ever, because there might be men in hats. Or D) Work on why they might find men in hats threatening and make it not so. Some form of consequence and reward action has to happen. We aren't talking inhumane, but the consequence is unpleasant and the reward is high. Soon, the dog chooses to put the reward with not barking at men in hats.
In other words, you change the behavior instead of trying desperately not to walk the dog near men in hats.

Underlying problems...

Alcoholics have to learn their triggers before they can successfully pass a bar. Giving them 'boundaries' alone doesn't cut it. Neither does telling them they can't drive anywhere because they may pass a liquor store or bar. They may have underlying issues they must deal with - self esteem, etc.

Should WS try to prevent being away? ABSOLUTELY! But not every affair means people can never travel, must move, avoid watching TV ever again, etc. People cannot forget traumatic events. We cannot run from them or every trigger. I will always feel sad when I hear someone's name who is the same as my father's. I don't avoid them. I'm sad, but I don't break down. It just tugs at my heart. I instantly miss him. Same for some things that meant a lot to my father. They're triggers. I just acknowledge and take a moment and move on. An affair will always be the same. Always. I refuse to never mention my father again, or his death. It happened. I can't avoid people who have cancer. I will talk to them about their illness if they wish and it makes them feel better, even if it's the cancer that killed my father.

I don't run.

Romanticizing? I do see a time when he handles affair triggers like he handles the pain he sees when I miss my dad - a hug, a joke (yes, an appropriate joke), a hug. And they do help. Bottling it up? Nope. I do the same when he misses his mom after all these years or there's a trigger. A hug, a touch, an "I know" without him telling me? He says it goes a long way and that's what he loves about me.

Yes, there has been a time or two where a well-placed joke has made us less tense about the affair. We even laughed a little once. We were watching the news and someone in a church went to jail for stealing donations. He said, "At least she was Christian." Probably off-putting to some, but it made me laugh on a day when he could tell I was tense and upset. Whatever works.

Spyware won't prevent her from traveling anywhere. Any spyware that your WS knows about can be worked around. You are underestimating a wayward if you think differently.

They could have adjoining rooms and she could step in to the next room. If you have spyware on your phone all he has to do is turn on some music or the tv and go into the next room.

Here is just one example of how a wayward could work around this. He doesn't answer the phone and you turn the audio on. He says that he was sleeping. Really he has left the room.

I think the spyware audio is a great tool but it will not make up for the risks you are taking with overnight travel.

Not to mention it is hard to have a very integrated, intimate marriage when you spend nights apart. Dr Harley has been doing this for many years and he talks about this topic often.

However, it sounds like you're not really here to listen to Dr Harley's advice and are rather reciting your plans and ideas to us.

This is very fixable but not when you dismiss pretty important EPs. Every time I see couples here who do that and make similar excuses as what I am seeing on this thread get burned and hit by the train, again.

Don't say that we didn't warn you.

I hope that you have the poly planned before this week is out.

It is tough for me to read so many similar thoughts as I had before I found this site. From what you have said to us, it seems that your hubby is trying. But words and wishes don't cut it when recovering from an affair.

Have you found this thread yet? False Recoveries

How many people have I worked with who recovered from affairs? None. How many people have I known who have recovered from them? A few. None of those quit their jobs, moved to a new town/state and refused to every spend another night apart. Yes, they did make sacrifices and limited exposure.

We trust our therapist. Under her guidance, we also use a lot of the info here. Just because under our counselor's guidence we have added things like core values and asked to look inward doesn't mean we are not committed.

I'm not schooling you, I'm telling you how WE are doing it. That this is how is for US. Not you. I never said that YOU should do anything, have I? Explicitly, when did I ever say YOU should do something? I repeat, I said this is what we are adding. That isn't me telling you that you're wrong. I'm free to disagree. You're free to disagree.

I bow out because it seems that unless my husband quits his job - even though we cannot financially afford to do so, and that he tells his boss and his clients that his email and number are changed due to an affair, and we live in a world where we cannot ever speak of what has been traumatic, and we cannot risk turning on the TV or radio or step foot into anyplace where someone might have a nametag of the affair partner, then no. I choose NOT to do those things.

Can he turn his audio off or delete the spyware? Sure. But if he's going to be that deceitful, we're done and he agrees. We don't want a life where I'm forever spying on him and yet we can't talk reasonably and calmly.

Telling me that I'm hammering him all the time isn't true. Are you here? No. Then you can't say that.

I'm distraught enough. Delete the post or my account or whatever. We clearly are not compatible. That's fine. Moving on.

BH, I understand these precautions seem very rigid, but they truly are the key to marital recovery. Dr Harley has specialized in recovery from infidelity for 50 years and that checklist was created from years of successful experience saving marriages. You simply can't cut corners with recovery from infidelity; the cost is too great. The people who don't follow these precautions subject themselves to 7 levels of hell when they go through a false recovery. Going through an affair is the most painful thing one can endure; going through a false recovery is 10x worse.

if your "counselor" gives you advice that is counter to these suggestions, she is giving you bad advice, PERIOD. I know you don't want to hear that, but it is true. Marriage counselors, as a rule, know absolutely nothing about recovery from an affair and have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population.

Dr. Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and author of Surviving an Affair wrote:

Just know that we truly do care and will be here to help you in the future. Best of luck to you.

But your idea of recovery is that the stain never really goes away. The recovery plan that is offered here is complete recovery, and it works. In our experience and Dr. Harley's experience, if couples don't get complete recovery, the marriage usually languishes and eventually dies.

Many posters have this kind of reaction to the "uncomfortable" parts of MB and don't want to bothered with such measures but then often have a change of heart when they get burned again.

I've always thought that BS's are so quick to dismiss these EPs and express outrage over doing something so "radical" and that they "would just prefer to divorce" (yup, we see that all the time here) largely because they believe their BS won't hurt them again...the WS is acting remorseful, denouncing the OP, etc.

Your WH had an 11-year EA with this woman and isn't going to change the conditions that led to the affair being carried out all this time (travel, same email, etc) I can't emphasize it enough, you ARE going to get burned again.

Hear me now, believe me later...

Sorry for your frustration. But this forum for posters who are wanting to implement MB into their marriage. That's why it tells you in the "Guidance Forum" entrance that posters should be familiar with MB before posting.

We, as fellow posters, are here to encourage others to fully implement the program because cherry picking does not work. Not only does Dr Harley say that the path to recovery is narrow, but most of us have experienced that firsthand or by reading stories here.

It's not a forum for posters to tell us how their own recovery plan will differ from Dr Harley's. That would end up wasting our volunteers' time and end up leading to endless debates and frustration for everyone.

We offer something better. Your current plan will, as you say, leave a "stain" of the affair in your mind. Ours removes that stain completely and replaces it with a fresh, new, better than you can imagine marriage.

With your plan, you will always have to wonder. Every time he leaves on a trip, it will be like a knife to your brain. You will always have to be checking up on him. There will always be doubt. With our plan, that doubt is removed completely.

You will always be welcome to come back. Best wishes.

I agree with the others, you're welcome back. I know this was posted to you before, but I strongly recommend for you to read this.
False recovery need voices of experience

Yes - this is a good one!

I am sorry you are in such pain, betrayed. We are not trying to cause you more, we are trying to cause you less. I know it is hard to hear that to fully recover you need to change so many things about your life. I remember the time when I was so angry about betrayal and then thinking about having to change my life around because of it made me even more angry! Unfortunately, you will not recover without it, I am sorry

We all would LOVE for you to prove us wrong, and come back in 5 years fully recovered with no resentment or anger left from this LTA. So far, in 6 years of posting on this board, I have never seen that happen when people cut corners. But good luck to you because that is what we all want for you.

No stain!