This is taken from another post that I did not want to t/j.

I am a former OW, married 19 years, and a BS (which I should have seen coming but I didn't). I was saved after I was married 5 years and I struggled with the issue should we d and my h return to the w of his youth (although she probably wouldn't take him back and I wouldn't blame her if she didn't). I struggled with am I continuing in sin remaining married to my h. I didn't come to the peace about it for awhile and when I did it was based upon a verse that tells us we should remain where we were when we were called. I will have to look up the reference because it has been so long since I really had to hold onto that verse. Before I provide the details of my situation. I need to say that I was an OW because I was with my h before his d was final, adultery is adultery, I knew it was wrong at the time but I just came up with justifications and rationalization to do what I wanted. Some of those I will describe below. There was no excuse for my actions, no circumstances or age, that every justifies any affair. I realized this truth long before my d-day in Aug 2005, when I meet the one who is Truth.

I will try to be as brief as possible.

I met my H at the age of 16. We went out on 1 date (he lied and said he was d, because I specifically asked). We talked all night before we even realized it. He made a pass at me and I told him no, take me home, he apologized and we continued to talk. We talked about his d, his ex-w (who really was his w), the circumstances of her birth and their marriage--out of wedlock birth while both in hs, m when d was 3 months old, he claimed it didn't work out and they d. We talked about his interest, my interest etc. Suddenly it is daylight and I think my mother is going to kill me. As he is dropping me of his w drives by, screeching halt, I joke and say there is your w (I actually thought a cat ran in the road or something). He says she is my ex-w. I tell him get her out of here I am probably in all kinds of trouble already. Then argue some outside and leave. His w comes back about 30 m later to my door, she asks why were you with my h. I sincerely apologize and tell her he lied and if he would cheat on you he would cheat on me. (18 month old d was on her hip and I was thinking where can I find the slimest rock to crawl under) She said no we are getting a d and leaves. My h comes to my h later, I tell him leave and don't come back until your d is final. This goes on a couple of times. Then his w kicks him out, papers are drawn up and she moves another man in with her. My h comes around again and says he is sleeping in the car or at my FIL's business because his parents won't let him stay their either. I being the codependent (STUPID, STUPID, STUPID is how I see it now) little helper that I was at the time, help him find a place to rent. He later asks me to move in with him and I do. A couple of months later, his d is final. About 6 months later he asks me would I wait. I ask him for wait for what? He said for him. I honestly said I don't know, I can't promise you anything (17 year old mind you don't really even think long term, no excuse, just a comment) how long do you mean. Then he asked me to marry him and without thinking like an adult (probably because I wasn't an adult, again, no excuse) I say yes and happily go about planning our wedding. We move in with my mom so we can save money for the wedding and we marry ( my philosophy is I only intend to marry once in my life and it will be in a church and it will be a wedding I plan, no going before a judge). 2 years later we move near my ILs. I am still going to college and my M-Thur routine is up at 4am, leave at 5am, drive 1 hour, work 6am-4pm, go to school, 5:30-9:45pm, drive home, get home 11pm. Fridays are homework, clean house, etc. Sat and Sun we are together but I also spend a lot of time doing things with his d on my own. I loved and accepted her as my own--she is 22 am married now and we are close. Within a year, I find a phone #. Call OW, she alleges she doesn't even know my h (she was pregnant at the time) I in some unkind words tell her to stay away from my h. H denies everything. About 8 months later I graduate with my bachelor degree and things are good. One year later we buy our 1st house. 1 month after that my h confesses to the ONS with OW (doesn't mention anything about the child). I forgive to quickly and he promises no c with OW and I tell him there will be no 2nd changes. We have our d, who is now 14. M is really good. When our d is a toddler my h loses his job and is diagnosed with depression (birth of 2nd OC coincides with this time). He goes back to work and things are back to normal. Then there are a few unexplained absences but if I question they stop, etc.... I was saved when I was 4 months pregnant with our d. I am not the same person I was before. I continue to grow and learn. My h and I grow apart and live largely independent lives. I am very involved with our d activities and volunteer work, etc. And now I realize I am way of subject sorry about that. Fast forward to d-day, August 2005, and I find out there are 2 step-c I never knew about, ages 15 & 9, and that my h has secretly "visited the children" on and off over the years. No paternity, no cs, he isn't on the bc, they have the ow last name and I am told all this to keep my from finding out. Finding out what there was a child, or you are in an a. Both claim 2nd ONS "just happened" during a secret visit when my h went there when he was mad. Yeah right whatever, but that is why I advise nc with ow, even if there is a child, because that is another act of adultery waiting to happen. Anyway, I will try to get back on topic.

Validity of our marriage. Is our marriage valid?

Wistress -- very creative and I like that. I don't want to think of myself that way, but just because the truth hurts, doesn't change it from being the truth. I was not your average OW, but I committed adultery and I was the other woman, there is no getting around that.

I believe when I was saved God forgave my for my sin of adultery and the many others. I acknowledge the hurt and pain that I caused my h's ex-w and his d. Yes, I SAID THAT I CAUSED. No one is responsible for the pain but the two parties who were involved in the A. BS don't believe for a minute that you have any responsibility for the A, that is a lie of the devil and false guilt, get rid of it, it doesn't belong to you, it belongs to your spouse and the OP. BS you are only responsible for your part in the health of your marriage. You may have done or not done some things that may have made your m vulnerable to an A, but you are not responsible for the A.

Ok, I need to stop going off on tangents.

I questioned is our m valid and I was able to find peace that it is valid in God's eyes. I would like input from all if you agree or disagree. And I would love to hear any references to any scripture.

I always thought and said if my h ever cheated on me again and I had proof I would file for d immediately. I question sometimes why am I still in this m. Will we make it? I don't know. I just want to be obedient to God, whatever that may be now or in the future. I know I am free to d, biblically, but I don't want a d. But I don't know if I will be able to remain in our m without true repentence from my h.

Why did our m make it this long? I don't know. I believe most affair marriages fail because they are built on lies to begin with. Dishonest and deception are the means both parties take to conceal their sin, they only see one side of the person, they devalue the instution of m, they live in a fantasy world, and when they marry each other, I think reality sets in and they see that the grass is NOT greener here. The start to see the whole person and not the image they created in their mind of that person and the bills come and there is no committment, so they soon part ways.

Comments on my marriage or affair marriages in general are welcome.

Ann

You sound Christian. Is your H also Christian? Can you define for me what you think "true repentence" is?

Sorry to see you go through this but yes the writing was on the wall. As far as religion it is a belief not a behavior. It helps in a M to both be of same religion,but we all have seen or heard stories of ministers committing adultery. If you were M in a church I would say your M is valid. It is always easier to change your beliefs then it is to change your behavior. So as far as your M goes I believe everyone deserves one chance. But you have alot of forgiving to do to get over your H mistakes. IMHO I wouldn't go any further with him. I just don't know how much you can live with knowing he is cheating on you and the kids. It is a very immature thing to do but they never look at it that way. I think some were in the bible gives you the out because of adultery and adultery only may you end the union between the two of you that god made as one. As far as repentance goes sorry don't cut it for me. They have to actually change their behavior for good and that is hard to do. There is only one person that can do that and that is the WW. You can't tell them what to do they must want to do that for themselves. I hope this helps you.

Well, I am sorry for your situation. It is a sad reminder that most marriages that start as affairs either involve further affairs that destroy lives, or don't last, or both. It's one reason why I would think that anyone who senses adultery/affair or similar behavior in a potential spouse would run in the other direction. I'm not sure what advice or help I can give. However, I would like to point out a few things regarding the Bible verse you mentioned and what the Bible says about true repentance and marriages that are reeally continuing adultery.

Frankly, you have misinterpreted the Bible verse you quoted above regarding staying in your M that began as affair. You are referring to 1 Cor. Chapter 7. Although that chapter does address marriage, the verse you found is not referring to marriage or adultery, but to your station in life. Here is the verse in context with the verse numbers listed:

"17Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts. 20Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him. 21Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave. 23You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24Brothers, each man, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation God called him to."

Nowhere does the Bible say that if you were living in sin or doing sinful things in life when you were called, then just go ahead and keep doing those things. On the contrary, there are many examples in the Bible where, once called, a believer must leave behind his or her life of sin and "go and sin no more."

Also, the Bible is clear about true repentance - it requires you to not only feel sorry or remorseful about your past sin, but to stop committing the sinful behavior. A relationship that started as an affair cannot be cleansed or made right with a marriage ceremony. Continuing in a relationship that started as an affair is continuing to sin, whether you had a marriage ceremony or not. If a marriage ceremony were all that was required to make an affair acceptable in God's eyes, then we would have to throw out all those passages that say you cannot divorce except for certain reasons, and if you do divorce and remarry, then you are committing adultery. The Bible refers to that subsequent marriage as an adultery, not as a legitimate marriage covenant with God.

Best of luck to you.

Yes, I accepted Christ at the age of 22 when I was 4 months pregnant. I am a Christian. My h is not a Christian, he was raised in church as I was but and he allowed something that happened in the church in his teen years to allow him to harbor bitterness and his opinion is that anyone who attends church is a hypocrit.

To repent to me is to change. To repent or change you have to truly be sorry (regret, remorse) for what you have done and what to not ever do it again.

1 Corinthians 7, I can't (personal conviction) d my h if he does not became a Christian but if there is no repentence (change) I may have to d in love. Does that make any sense?

Yes the writing was on the wall and I think that because I saw it years ago, I failed to properly address the issue of the why for the a and I forgave too quickly and buried it under the rug.

Yes, we were married in a church and said traditional Christian vows. Neither of us were Christians (accepted Christ as our saviour) at the time but I believed in God and Christ and my h said he believed the same, neither of us had made a conscious choice to accept Christ at that time.

I think I could live with it before I was saved (after the first confession) because I still had unresolved guilt from my involvment with him while he was still married, I was in denial, and due to some things in my childhood I was a textbook codependent.

Strangely enough, I think I could better deal with the A and the kids easier, that the 16+ years of concealment and lies of omission.

My h has a lot of growing up to do, I know that.

Yes, I am allowed to d because of the adultery. That is clear. My heartfelt belief is that I am allowed but not commanded to and this decision the Lord lives entirely up to me, to stay would not be sin and to leave would not be sin. Life would be so much easier if the Bible commanded me to divorce because of adultery. My H has defiled our marriage bed. The thing is I don't want an out. I want to remain married but I think the sucess will depend a lot on my h and his willingness to change.

Sorry doesn't cut it for me either. Words although they can comfort and ease the pain some, in my case, words are almost meaningless. Actions are what I need to see. More importantly I need to see consistent long term change in actions.

Thanks

Nev

Thanks, I am very familiar with the scripture you referenced, actually the whole chapter, but that isn't the one that gave me peace. I will need to research it and post it here when I find it. 24-27 talks about marriage, but I know this wasn't the verse either.

I have also lived by verse 13-15

If my h would chose to leave verse 15 would give me the peace to allow him to leave peacefully.

Nowhere does the Bible say that if you were living in sin or doing sinful things in life when you were called, then just go ahead and keep doing those things. On the contrary, there are many examples in the Bible where, once called, a believer must leave behind his or her life of sin and "go and sin no more."


I agree with you 100%

You are correct, go and sin no more is what Jesus said to the adulteress. The other scripture that comes to my mind is, it is better to not make an oath at all than to make an oath and break it.

I don't think the wedding cleansed or forgave any of the sin of the adultery, I believe when I accepted Christ, I was forgiven for that sin as well as others and now I must strive to be obedient to God and become as sinless as possible while still in this world.

My h's ex-w did have the valid Biblical reason for d my h, and I guess he MAY have had the valid Biblical reason also since (she moved in another man after she kicked him out and they were physically seperated and the d papers prepared but not final)

I am not convicted that my m is sin. Pray the Holy Spirit convict me of this and open my eyes if it is sin.

Again, thank you.

It's a fact...it's still a sin.

whether you took buddhist vows or catholic...it's still a sin. no church should have married you. sad but true.

I made sure that the church MY XH AND THE WISTRESS ATTENDED TWO TIMES..only two times as they were "searching for a church who would validate them" WAS CONTACTED AND THE CHIEF MINISTER TLD THAT MY HUSBAND (STILL AT THE TIME) AND HIS MISTRESS WERE ENGAGED TO BE MARRIED. The minister laughed. He said "oh no...they are scheduled for a visit. what could they want with me?" I told the minister that MY XH HAS HAD AN OPEN AFFAIR WITH A WOMAN, AND THAT THEY ARE LIVING TOGETHER AND THAT MY DIVORCE SHOULD BE FINAL WITHIN A WEEK, BUT WANTED THE MINISTER TO KNOW THAT THEY WERE
1)LIVING IN SIN TOGETHER
2)HE WAS STILL LEGALLY MARRIED
3)IT WAS AN AFFAIR.

THE MINISTER REFUSED TO MARRY THEM.

Couldn't find a church who would.

justice of peace had t marry them.

last summer, when MY XH WAS CHEATING ON HER, she called me in tears..

said "I didn't get my wedding."

so? I said "So?"

If you're NOT DEEP DOWN WORRIED OR SUFFERING SOME CONVICTION OVER THE 16 YEARS OF LIES AND OMISSIONS...

WHY START A DEBATE?

WHY THIS THREAD?

ABSOLUTION FROM GUILT.???HMMM?

http://www.shepherdserve.org/dmm/dmm_13.htm

justpeachy

I am glad you have posted here.


I agree 1000% that adultery is a sin, but I don't believe remaining in my m is a sin. Should we have ever m, probably not? Would it have been better if no church would have married us at the time? Yes. I was raised in a Methodist and Nazarene church. Neither my h or I attended church at the time and both of us were lost. I went to see the pastor at a nearby Methodist church (one I had never attended). He only required both of us to come and talk to him once prior to marrying us. He agreed to marry us.

Maybe if he would have refused to marry us and I would have had difficulty finding a pastor to marry us, things might have worked out differently, I don't know. You never know about all the what ifs. This happened in 1986.

I think it is excellent that more churches are requiring pre-marital counseling that extend into 8-10 sessions now.

Nothing excuses my behavior as an adulteress, it was sin, there is no gray area, that is as clear as black and white.

Is your interpretation that second marriages are valid, if the two parties do not commit adultery prior to their m. But if they are involved in adultery, the second marriage is not valid.

For example, I was involved with my h prior to his d being final, does that make my m and the vow I took before God invalid?

Whereas, if I had meet my h 3 months after h divorce was final, our marriage would be valid?

I am just trying to make sure that I understand what you are saying.

Ann

I am indeed experiencing pain as a result of my h's adultery, and years of lies of omission and commission. I am not under conviction that my m is a sin or that remaining m is a sin. When I was first saved in 1991, I did question, did scripture say I should d my h at that time? It was for several months that I searched the scriptures and prayed and wondered was it still adultery to be with my h even though we were married. I am wonderfully blessed and confident that my sin of adultery as well as my other sins were forgiven at the time I accepted Christ.

Does that give me a license to go sin as much as I want to now? No, absolutely NOT. Does that mean I am now sinless? No, absolutely NOT. 1 John ch 1 & 2, written to Christians says if we say we have no sin, we are calling God a liar, and God is NOT a liar.

What that means to me, is that my sin is forgiven, and the Holy Spirit lives within me, and that I must daily strive to become as sinless and as Christlike as possible. Will I ever be sinless in this world, no, because I am still in the flesh.


Debate is a strong word. I would like to think of this as more of an open discussion about beliefs about marriage and divorce.


I hadn't even thought about this until MBC's thread and I started this thread more to have a discussion on the topic because I think it may be relative to a lot of people who post here. I love to have discussions about scripture regardless of the topic. I learn from them and someone else may have an interpretation that I may have never seen or realized of a particular scripture.


No, see above.

Thanks for the link. I will have to read it later as I don't have that much time to commit right now. I just skimmed it a little.


This is something I have thought about since my d-day. I must forgive as God has forgiven me. If I have forgiven my h for his adultery and years of lies, what grounds do I now have for d, legal or Biblical. If I remain in my marriage, and my h is unwilling to repent, as my IC counselor has pointed out to me, it will mean that I will literally die on the Cross daily and I will live in pain. Isn't that what we are called to do anyway as Christians, to die daily to Christ? If that is what the Lord wants me to do, OK, I want to be obedient.

If my h departs, I am to let him go in peace.

My h doesn't want to leave and we are working on our m, I agree it is at a slow pace and he could be doing more right now but I could be doing more right now too.

I think if I ever would tell my h, he had to leave, or d, it would only be out of love for my h.

I refuse to harbor bitterness. It would be so nice if there was a switch I could flip for the pain and forgiveness but there isn't so I just have to go through the pain to heal and work on the forgiveness coming truly from the heart and not just the head.

I don't feel that I have to stay in the marriage, I feel that the Lord has left this decision up to me. I don't want a hard heart and even though the Lord allows d in the case of a, he doesn't command it.

Something else I have thought about, if I am the one who makes the choice to d, what does that potentially do to my Christian witness?

You may have heard the phrase, you talked the talk, now walk the walk. That is sort of the way I am looking at this right now.

I am at a crossroad, I can take either road. Either road I take will have hazards and I will probably doubt my decision and wish I took the other road. The final destination is the same because of what Christ did for me. Regardless of which road I take, I must make sure I stay on the straight and narrow path and not allow anything to pull me off the path.

Ann

Hi Ann,

I empathize with you. ((((Ann))))

If you were to do a search on me, before the "II" on my name, you'd see me struggling throughout the years... always the same struggle... which began not-so-long before I arrived at MB in 1999.

I want to love God... I want to be perfect, but know I can't be... I am flawed, and that's okay with God. Sometimes I think it's much easier to please God than people.

A little history about my relationship with God/Christ and the church:

I was baptized at 15 in the Church of Christ. I turned away from God in my late teens and stayed away until I was around 25, then married for five years with three children. During these years, my (then)H cheated on me, several times.

Our family moved 100 miles from that church (and the OW, which was one reason for the move, among others), and we joined a Baptist church.

The church, which I had been a member of for many years, split right down the middle because of a LOT of ugliness. There was sexual abuse, physical abuse, Child Protective Services was involved. My *children* were involved (as victims). There was infidelity among the congregation (what a mess!)... shunnings of those who dared question the Preacher's ultimate authority (Independent Fundamental Baptist). It was Drama at its best. How can God be found there?

And then I found the Episcopal church and thought I'd found a little slice of Heaven. It was soon after that I crashed...

My affair turned me into a different person. It ended quickly and I hated myself. My (then)H, who had cheated so many times himself, punished me in many ways, and ended up having more affairs in retaliation. We couldn't recover.

All of that was bad enough as a Christian... but then I met my (current)H before our divorces were final. Both of our (then)spouses had moved onto others... did it matter? No. We had no right to begina as we did. But how do we go forward, then? Knowing that...

This thread isn't the first place I've read that first marriages are the only real marriages. There are no words appropriate to convey how this makes me feel.

So, the past... It would be water under the bridge, except it keeps on splashing up on the bridge where I seem to be stuck... even now, years after the fact. It sounds like this is your struggle, too.

So, I go to my Bible... I do studies... I have asked experts... and everyone varies... valid, not valid, very valid... do right from this point forward... go back... it's all over the map.

And prayer? I've prayed a LOT.

I know that God is not the author of confusion. This is confusing, not from God.

And that is where I stand... on this bridge... my past splashing up on me, my future ahead if I can take the steps forward... or maybe I need to just ""be"" up here. Though, the fact that this keeps being revisited makes me think that it can somehow be resolved... darned if I know how to do it.

So, like you... I want to please God. I don't want to live in sin, and in my heart believe that I have repented, asked God's forgiveness (along with anyone else I hurt by my decision-making at the time - and there were many I hurt)... and I was, and continue to be, remorseful. Sometimes, I feel so guilty that I wonder why I'm still here on earth - not a death wish or suicide, but why God allowed me to remain if my sin was unforgiveable.

I don't have the answers. Maybe people like us, are sensitive enough to realize there's a problem (compared to people who just march forward stomping on whomever is in the way and/or have no care or regard for the things of God). I hope we're not going to suffer through this for the rest of our lives. And sadly, I think that some folks would like to think that we'll suffer forever and that we deserve it.

Ann, just know you aren't alone in your questioning. I will tell you that there are days (as it sounds like for you, too) that I know I did the best I could with what I had in me at the time. I am not a bad person, and I never meant to hurt anyone by my choices. Yes, we have to live with the consequences of our decisions... but I truly do not believe God wants us to crawl into a hole and die. I think He might want us to step out into the sunshine and be the best Christians (and humans) we can be from this point forward.

Bless you as you continue this journey... it is an important one, I think.

I am so glad you have shared about yourself with me.

Christ did NOT die in vain and there is forgiveness. It isn't through the name on the door of the church you attend, how often you attend, how many good things you do in this world, baptism or anything else. It is through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, when you make a decision to accept Christ as your Savior, you acknowledge your sin, acknowledge his death on the Cross paid your debt in full, and you ask for forgiveness and you sincerely repent in your heart (which only you and God know)

I was raised in a Methodist & Nazarene church and I never doubted Jesus was the Son of God. But it wasn't until I was 4 months pregnant that I realized and really saw the truth that he died for ME. That very moment is etched in my mind to this day. God knew my heart and I believe I was saved the instant I stepped out into the aisle. I didn't even fully understand everything the pastor said to me at the alter and it wasn't until after I had been a Christian almost 11 years that I really began to grow.

You must remember Christians are not perfect they are just forgiven. Each of us will continue to struggle with different temptations as long as we are still here. But we now have an advocate and God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse is from all unrighteousness (help us not to do it again) if we confess our sins.

The confession doesn't bring the forgiveness, Christ's blood brings the forgiveness, the confession removes the distance between you and God.


How are your children doing now? Have they recovered from this? As hideous as you and I believe anyone to be in order to harm an innocent child, there is even forgiveness for them if they truly repent.


God is everywhere. In every church, Satan is also always prowling about seeking to devour whom he may. Sin is everywhere in this world, even in the church. More so in some than in others. Sadly many get led astray by another person instead of always looking to Jesus for the answer and guidance. Preachers are not any different than you and I but they will be held accountable for more because of their position.


No one is immune to adultery. The best we can do is avoid any circumstances that may lead to us being placed in an a situation where there is temptation. Look at David, a man after God's own heart, yet he failed to resist the temptation. The Bible instructs us to FLEE from adultery, not to try and withstand the temptation or test ourselves.

While it is not a temptation I struggle with now, I know I must be on guard and flee any possible situation that may lead to the temptation of adultery.


Because God forgives and removes your sin as far as the east is from the west. There never is any excuse for adultery under any circumstances. But you don't have to let your past, define who you are today, in the here and the now. Accept God's forgiveness if you have truly repented in your heart and accepted Christ. You know there is such a thing as false guilt and it is a favorite tool of Satan I think.

Once when my h falsely accused me of a and asked me why he should believe me instead of the girl who told him she thought something was going on, I slipped and said because I am your wife, damn it. I had not cursed in years. I was crushed and begged for God's forgiveness and I cried and cried. And then I realized why do I keep asking God to forgive me repeatedly. Do I not believe that he forgave me the first time I confessed. And then I realized I was experiencing some false guilt that was not of God or conviction by the Holy Spirit. I accepted God's forgiveness and was about to put this incident in the past and go on.

Sin is sin in God's eyes, there is no big sin or little sin. Adultery is the only sin where the person sins against their own body. And from my standpoint, a curse word, is nowhere near the magnitude of adultery. I just shared that to illustrate a point. You can receive the forgiveness, but there will still be consequences to your sin. Forgiveness doesn't erase the natural consequences we will experience here. We only avoid our eternal punishment. Don't be as Lot's wife and look back, instead look forward and use your pain and the strengths created from it to help others. You both are Christians, correct. Then focus on Christ and the future and how you can be a witness to others for Christ. Build your marriage, teach others from what you have learned from your life experiences. God didn't plan for you to be involved in an a, but He can use all things for the good to those who love Him. Allow him to do that. He gave you the free will. Use it to His Glory.


One man and one woman, one marriage, until death. Yes, that is God's design and the way he intended it from the beginning, but because of our sin, it doesn't always go that way. Do you think God really didn't forgive Paul for persecuting His followers? If he would forgive Paul for ordering the death of His followers, why do you not believe he can forgive you for adultery. It doesn't really matter what others think or believe. You should not let that sway your feelings. You must search the scriptures and live by them and let that dictate how you feel and what you believe.


I am blessed that I no longer struggle with this and if I can help you get pass this in anyway this thread is entirely worth it, if for nothing else.

Are you familiar with the Romans road. Romans 3:23, 6:23, 5:8 & 10:13. Call upon the name of the Lord and seek His righteousness. There is believing in Christ and accepting in Christ and putting your full trust in Him.

Trust Him to forgive you as he promises in His Word.


Lean on Christ and not to your own understanding or the understanding of others. Yes, there is safey in seeking the counsel of many, but it really is between you and God and no one else.


Amen, to that. Don't allow Satan to draw you into a state of confusion. Stand on the Word.


I don't think the Lord wants you to stand there, I think he wants you to step out in faith, and move forward and do all things unto His Glory.


You are on the right path and we are heading in the same direction. We can't change the past, we can only live day by day serving the Lord.


Ask the Lord to search your heart and show you any sin you may not see. You may need to take further steps to make amends to someone you hurt. This could be why you are still experiencing the guilt or it may be false guilt. Only you will be able to tell by seeking God's wisdom and discernment.


Think about it, it was your sins (as well as mine) that put Christ on the Cross, do you want to keep Him on the Cross, or do you want to fully embrace that he arose again and is no longer on the Cross. It is finished. There is nothing more you can do to pay for your sins.


I agree so get off that bridge where you are getting wet and travel down the road closer toward your final destination <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You can be a wonderful witness for Christ!

Blessings,

Ann

Read the document in the link in the post by ThornedRose.

Ann,

I've been off-and-on this afternoon, hoping you'd write. But soon I have to get ready to go pick up my H from work... so this can't be long.

Here's what I want to say to you: Thank you for the care and time it took you to write that very thoughtful and thought-provoking reply to me.

It's funny, I was trying to uplift you somehow with my words... give you a sense of knowing that you aren't alone... I hadn't realized my post ended up being an (almost) cry for help. Not until I read your reply, and then re-read my own words, did I see it. Thank you for noticing... when I hadn't even been aware myself.

I will read TR's link later. In fact, I will be printing out your response, too.

I guess that for me, the thing that upsets me most about this is how long it's been going on. If you were to look over on Women's Bible Study (nobody goes there anymore - so sad), you'd see that I was there (3-4 years ago) and getting somewhat the same advice as what you've said. For some reason, I seem UNABLE to let this go... a self-punishing thing, perhaps?

I will be back to discuss this more, Ann. Just know that your words were received with heartfelt thanks, a lot of nodding and understanding, and a few tears. Thank you.

Sheryl

ETA: My children are now in their 20's... and as most of us know (me, from personal experience, unfortunately)... the abuse never goes away... but with love, therapy and validation... the pain of it can minimize. My kids are doing well... but I wish we'd realized what was happening at the time. Amazing that I could have had it happen to me as a child and then not realize it was happening to them.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Sheryl

I am glad to hear your children are doing well. I am sorry to hear that you also experienced this pain as a child.

God is good. God will take care of you, if you let Him.

I am glad I was able to encourage you.

And you did uplift me and I appreciate it. You also allowed the Lord to bless me further and use me to glorify Him.

I haven't read the posts in the Bible study area because I had already read the book, the Power of a Praying Wife, I will have to visit that forum and maybe we can revive it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Take care and God bless

Your sister in Christ,
Ann

Hi Thorned,

I have a question with reference to Deut 24.

What if there is no legal separation or divorce/annulment papers, but H & W have been separated for 5 years. I had an A during separation. I confessed and repented... but I still feel guilty of and regret what I've done.

My H, unknown to me, had a long distance A before separation and continued during separation resulting to 2 OC while at the same time pursuing reconciliation with me. H is more persistent to reconcile when I found out of his A just a year ago. He finally decided to leave OW & 2 OC to work on reconciliation. We are still separated though currently discussing possible R.

In this case,with reference to Deut 24, would it be a sin for H & me to reconcile?

Thanks,
Someone

I thank you two for this post.

This is something I struggle with as well, because I'm divorced and remarried.

We as humans remember sin forever I think. What I struggle to remember is that when I asked for forgiveness for my actions (fww in first marriage) then He wiped my slate clean. It's not only gone, He doesn't remember it. I cannot fathom that kind of forgiveness, nor do I feel that it gives me license to continually sin. He said, "Go and sin no more" period.

I don't feel like you're trying to justify your actions at all (the adultery).

My heart goes out to you.....

Someone,


My best interpretation of the scripture is that if you d, and then marry another and d the 2nd spouse, you cannot go back to the first spouse after marrying & divorcing a 2nd spouse. From what little you have posted so far, I don't think Deut 24 applies to your situation.


One reason why I don't think it applies is because I believe in your heart you did not feel you were d. You and your h seperated but were still married, legally and I think in your heart also. Hence, you said you had an A while seperated. May I ask if you are a Christian? If you were to die tonight are you 100% sure you would go to Heaven? In other words, have you accept Christ as your Saviour?


I can imagine your pain maybe a little more than most here on mb. My h has 2 OC by the same OW, ages 16 & 10. We have been married almost 20 years and have a COM age 14. How much I wish it would be a long distance A, but the OW actually lives and has always lived within 15 miles of our home. While my h confessed a ONS years ago, he never mentioned a child and it was only less than 8 months ago I discovered the existence of the OC.


I encourage you first to read Romans 3:23, Romans 6:23, Romans 5:8 & Romans 10:13. And 1 John chapters 1 & 2, in regard to forgiveness. And in regard to marriage and reconcilation I encourage you to read 1 Corithians 7, the whole chapter.

These are verses that have really helped me, especially with reconcilation.

From what you have said, my best interpretation is that it would NOT be sin for you to attempt to reconcile with your h.

Somethings my IC has shared with me that may also help you. There is the written word (the Bible) and the Living word (the Holy Spirit living within each Christian). Ask the Lord to show you the truth and lean on Him for this.

It will be difficult. I encourage you to establish boundaries and commit to standing by your boundaries. But I think if you and your h are willing, the hard work will be well worth it and you can rebuild your marriage.

There is a ministry that deals with remarriage (remarrying your d spouse w/o marrying another). I can't recall the name but I will try to find it and post it here later.
I know you and your h have not d but I think you may benefit from some of their materials.

Do you and your h have any children? What are the ages of the OC? The nc with OW, is a major first step. NC with the OW doesn't have to = nc with the OC, but everyone will have to be willing to accept responsibility for their actions and set self aside if there is to be contact with the oc. Something else to consider has paternity been established, cs/visitation ordered, etc.

Just as I don't believe it would be sin for you to try to reconcile, I believe it also would NOT be sin for you to decide not to reconcile. Divorce is allowable in case of A. It is a decision only you can make.

Take care of yourself and God bless you.

Ann

Hi Ann,

Just wanted you to know I haven't disappeared off of the planet or anything... I've been job hunting and spiffin' up my Resume, etc. etc. etc. and also trying to spend more time doing projects and connecting with friends and family away from this darned computer.

I do want to talk to you about this stuff... and will... I'm just not quite sure when it will be. Hopefully you're a patient person! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You are a blessing!! And I will be back...

ETA: I've been reading the link that TR gave (very interesting) and took this wonderful quote right off of it and made it my sig line! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Ann,

Thank you very much for your reply. I will read your suggested verses. Yes, I am a Christian. The OW is single and also a Christian. Its sad how Christians like us mess up our lives by sinning.

Like you, its the same OW for the 2 OC. OW was my staff and our common friend even before we got married. Honestly, I empathize with her- being there and done that... worst FOM is my case is part of extended family.

Yes, we have an adopted daughter (10 yrs old). We struggled with infertility problems for 10 years of marriage prior to 5 years separation. Sad to say, questions about fertility partly contributed to my A. Our doctor figured out that my H had problem, but it turned out he can... Sometimes I am also wondering if we should have paternity test. OC, both girls are ages 7 and 4.

I am praying for guidance from the Lord. I pray that His will be done... and may He give me an obedient heart and willing spirit.

God bless,
Someone

Do you have guilt or conviction over your sin?

Most certainly you should feel remorseful for your choices to sin, but remorse and conviction leads to repentance, which it sounds like you've done.

Guilt can come in two forms, one that is not yours to carry, and one that is yours to work past.

How long do you think you should carry the burden of guilt?

if you have truly repented, and have no desire to go back to an affair, and Christ has forgiven you, then you are no longer condemned per Romans 8:1.

Guilt is one way to hold us in condemnation, when we are no longer condemned.

read John 8:3-11



Now, you asked about Deut. 24, it would not apply in your case, as there were never any divorce papers filed, and neither of you remarried.

If the two of you could reconcile your marriage and work on the issues that lead to the seperation and adultries and also work on forgiving each other understanding neither one of you are perfect, and have made choices that have lasting consequences, that could bring Honor and Glory to God.

Sheryl, just so you know, there is no perfect church; denomation (whatever), and if you find one, DON'T join, cause you'd certainly ruin it, but then SO WOULD I!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Makes sense why we NEED a Savior eh??

Even God knew nobody could keep the law, so He had to provide the way to pay His requirement for sin (death)
and if anyone claims they have never BROKEN even ONE of God's laws, makes him/herself a liar.

Sheryl,

you said:


In a word yes, when we continually pound ourselves over the head for things we have repented of and sought God's forgiveness for, we are in essense saying "God I really don't beleive Jesus paid for this sin when He died on the Cross, so I must some how pay for it myself."

If I just feel guilty enough...

If I just apologize enough...

If I just Pray enough...

If I just say enough hail mary's...

If I just....whatever..enough...I will some how be forgiven.

God's grace is just that..HIS GRACE...we don't do anything to earn it.

grace:
1. A disposition to be generous or helpful; goodwill.
2. Mercy; clemency.

7: (Christian theology) the free and unmerited favor or beneficence of God; "God's grace is manifested in the salvation of sinners"; "there but for the grace of God go I" [syn: grace of God, free grace]

Mercy:

Compassionate treatment, especially of those under one's power; clemency.
A disposition to be kind and forgiving: a heart full of mercy. Something for which to be thankful; a blessing:

Synonyms: mercy, leniency, lenity, clemency, charity
These nouns mean humane and kind, sympathetic, or forgiving treatment of or disposition toward others. Mercy is compassionate forbearance: “We hand folks over to God's mercy, and show none ourselves” (George Eliot). Leniency and lenity imply mildness, gentleness, and often a tendency to reduce punishment: “When you have gone too far to recede, do not sue [appeal] to me for leniency” (Charles Dickens). “His Majesty gave many marks of his great lenity, often... endeavoring to extenuate your crimes” (Jonathan Swift). Clemency is mercy shown by someone with judicial authority: The judge believed in clemency for youthful offenders. Charity is goodwill and benevolence in judging others: “But how shall we expect charity towards others, when we are uncharitable to ourselves?” (Thomas Browne).

It is In God's Grace and Mercy, that we learn to appreciate even more fully Christ's death on the Cross and the Sacrifice HE made for us.

Something to ask yourself: what underlying belief are you carrying that is causing you to believe your sins have not REALLY been forgiven or are some how to much for Jesus' blood not to cover?

Hi guys (gals <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />),

I just want to post something I read on another thread, from Bellemere...

To argue that the old covenant should continue to bind the former spouse ignores some basic principles established by God. God said that if a person were to become divorced, and then become remarried to a new spouse, even if the second marriage ended because the new spouse dies, the original couple are never free to resume a marriage relationship (Deuteronomy 24:1-4).

Once the adultery of remarriage had occurred, at that very moment, the original marriage contract between the first husband and wife was forever cancelled and permanently voided, never to be renewed. God forbade the original divorced couple from ever reconciling and remarrying, even if the third spouse died (Deuteronomy 24:1-4). Jeremiah 3:1 reemphasizes this principle of "irreconcilability following divorce and remarriage" by calling such a reconciliation "pollution to the land".

Worse, if a couple did divorce, remarry other "new" spouses, and then decided to reconcile back as original spouses, they would be forced to legally divorce their "new" spouses. Jesus said that this too causes the divorce of the second spouses to become yet another set of adulteries (Matthew 5:32). So instead of correcting one adultery, it merely creates an entirely new set of adulteries while at the same time violating God’s written laws against this form of reconciliation.

Every marriage is a true marriage. Even the marriage between an unsaved person and a believer is a true marriage in spite of the fact that we are told in 2 Corinthians 6:14 that Christians must not become bound (married) to unbelievers. Paul says, when you find yourself in the situation where you are saved and are married to an unsaved spouse you are obligated to remain married, or, if the unbeliever chooses to leave you, you must remain single in hopes they will return and be won to the Lord (1 Corinthians 7:11-16). All marriages are true marriages, even if that marriage was improperly initiated, sinfully originated, or ill advised at the start.

From TheFaithfulWord.org



Like the link that you provided, TR, this is very helpful to me...

Thank you for your words to me (above) and I have (as you can see) been thinking on this and studying...

I'll be back later today with more thoughts. I woke up with a nasty headache... blech. In the meantime, I just want to thank both you, TR, and Ann for the dialogue and gentle push to forgive myself and move forward... if I can ***finally*** accomplish this, it will certainly be something to celebrate!

Sheryl,

You and I have both been here a long time, and I am sad to see you still stuck.

I think something we as people tend to do, is get stuck in how others have hurt or sinned against us, and stop there, and not really look at how WE have sinned against a Just, Holy and Righteous God. The one who created the Universe just by speaking it into existance.

If the God who created the universe by speaking it into existance can and does forgive us, why do we struggle to forgive ourselves? Doesn't HE know better than us?

We may never fully understand God's Grace and Mercy, but we can most certainly understand on some level His wrath and judgement.

When we look to ourselves and how we respond to people who have sinned against us, we want retribution, we want to see
Justice done. Yet, at the same time, we want others to show us grace and mercy, when we sin against them.

Then we tend to get upset if they don't give it, which in turn makes us angry and everything they have done to us, all the hurts they have caused, all the times they have sinned against us come boiling to the surface where we don't want to forgive. Then we begin to condemn and judge them and others, the same way we feel condemned and judged by others, and pretty soon, we are giving them power over us, by taking on their thoughts about us as our own.

We pick up the stones that they threw and begin to throw them at ourselves. But Jesus said, "HE who has NO SIN cast the first stone." Do we sin? I know I do, so who am I to throw stone even at myself when Christ says HE FORGIVES??

If I have Christ in me, and He says "There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" how can I continue to live life as if I am condemned?

That is like saying "God, my opinion of me is more important than YOUR opinion of me." "I am god of my own life, and what YOU say doesn't matter."

Talk about denying the Power and Holiness of God, talk about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, to deny the power and work of the Holy Spirit in our lives or even in the lives of others,
how dare we? Even that breaks the very first commandment of not having ANY other Gods before Him.

Certainly, God is Holy and Merciful, and loving, but His wrath is Justified when we deny His power, love, mercy and grace. We may never totally grasp just How AWESOME God, but even though we may never grasp it, doesn't mean it isn't true.

Okay, I'm rambling now, but I need to go and meditate some on this too.

TR,

I know! ::

I just read something this morning that resonated with me, as well... it's not Christian and I have no idea who wrote it, but it made sense:

I tell people, "You are a group of elephants."

After the funny looks subside, I explain that no one accepted that assertion because everyone knew in their core belief system that it was false.

Now take that same principle and apply ti to someone who tells you you are inadequate. Why would you believe it on any level?

As you know, TR, this has been a problem for me for years. And believe me, I do survive -- sometimes thrive -- for days, weeks, years at a time... **without** letting this (what other's think or believe) get me down.

Years ago, as I mentioned above, TnT and I talked about this on the Ladies Bible Study forum... I still have the information she gave me. You and I talked about it, too... and I also talked with Bramblerose back then... and everything that everyone said would help... until... and it's that "until" that pulled me back in, to a place of confusion. And I know that confusion is not from God.

Okay, so... yesterday I wrote on the pre-nup thread on GQ and said the following:


Does this "history" EVER not define me? Sheesh.

Infidelity. It began that way -- legally, morally, spiritually. I've been married for almost five years... to this lovely man... and no wonder I can't seem to move forward and struggle so much in my life...

I feel I never belonged here (in hindsight, of course)... and yeah, I know God forgives sin... and honestly, there are times (as I said above) that I **feel forgiven**... after all, I've certainly asked God for forgiveness enough times (read: too many, isn't once enough?).

I hang out here too much. That must be it. It's always easier when I don't... then I don't read things by people who say that the first marriage is the only real marriage... but the thing is... somewhere inside of me I must *believe* that.

Oh well, I am working on this AGAIN. I've got to get a grip. I don't want a second failed marriage because I can't let go of the "wrong-ness" of the beginnings of it... I'm so in love with my H... and we've lived through the kinds of struggles that NOBODY should have to deal with (yee gads, you have no idea)... and we're... sympatico... a really great fit together... and I have so much love in my life... I really am blessed.

Somebody smack me. Or hug me. Something! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

{{{{Sheryl,}}}}

Have you talked to your husband about how you feel?

Does he feel the same way on any level?

Maybe if the two of you talk about it, and yes, even pray together and seek forgiveness from each other and God together about it, it will help.

TR,

Thank you for the hugs!

Yes, we've talked, we've prayed... he doesn't feel as I do. That's been part of the struggle.

His situation (remaining relationship) with his ex is **totally** different from mine with my ex... another part of the problem, from the point of his understanding what I'm feeling. He tries to understand, and has sympathy (and empathy) regarding my feelings.

And you know, men just aren't wired the same way, physically and socially... not that men aren't sensitive and nurturing in their own ways, they are... but men know if there's a divorce that they will probably be the ones to leave the marital home... and society doesn't shun them for that choice. I understand the concept (and reality) of consequences and I have worked very hard to maintain loving relationships with my children and extended family... as well as not bad-mouth my ex to my family, which has allowed him to (for example) attend my grandmother's funeral last year - even being a pall-bearer (they loved each other very much - she would have wanted him there).

Oh, I don't know... sigh.

Yeah, I do know. I'm a good person. Made some really crappy choices, but somehow have been blessed through it anyway. I am sick to death of living in the past and can't do a thing about it anyway. It's over. Two seconds ago is over. LOL I know this.

Thanks for talking about this, TR... I really do need to listen to myself... I am good, God loves me and has forgiven me, everyone I care about has done the same... I am forgiven.

Sheryl,


I guess this is where I see myself differently. I look at who I am and choices I have made over the years, and see I am not a good person.

If I were a *good person* I wouldn't have made most of the choices I have, I would have made very different choices.

If I were a "good person" I certainly wouldn't NEED a Savior, or to be forgiven anything, because my choices would always be the right ones.

At the very core of my being, if I am to be completely honest with myself, am depraved. I'm selfish, I want others to suffer pain as I have suffered pain, If I was a 'good person' at my core, I wouldn't be that way. I would always want the best for everyone, I wouldn't get upset if I don't get my way.

And it brings comfort to me, knowing and accepting who I am
at the very core of my being, to know that God died for that part of me.

Christ didn't die for the part of me that makes "good choices" occassionally, He died for the part of me that if left without Him, would make really horrid choices ALL of the time.

I would make decisions based on what I think is best for ME, sure I might take other peoples feelings and opinions into account sometimes, but only in relation to what I could get out of it, and how I would benefit from being "nice" or 'good'.

In that, I see that in me, I have to trust God through the Holy Spirit to help me fight against that part of myself, and I have to learn to die to those things, and allow God to live through me. Some areas are easier than others, but even in those areas, it's many times a daily battle, that *I* sometimes win and God loses. And I have to confess and seek God's forgiveness, and ask Him to give me His strength the next time, because I can't do it alone.

The bible teaches it's in our weakness that HE is strong, and we have to learn to draw on His strength in those times, and not get stuck thinking about how weak we are, but looking at just how Strong God is.

We can read our Bibles and find His promises and draw on those, we can even look at our own lives sometimes and see where God worked and brought us through, and draw our strength from that. Knowing that God is faithful, even when we or others aren't.

TR,

Hmmm... while I understand what you're saying (why we *need* a Savior)... I do actually think I'm a good person who made some crummy choices. I really do!

I'll have to think on this one...

Normally I don't get the chance to read here or write too much on the weekends, but my H is going to get his kids this morning and I have some time alone... and I wanted to comment on what my H and I discussed last night.

I should begin by saying that this time in my life is unique, which is probably why this ugly feeling (the guilt) is rearing its head again...

For one thing: My 24 year old daughter and her fiance got their first apartment last week (they're to be married in the Fall)... and I couldn't be nearby to help her pack, pick out furniture, or for that matter -- see the apartment. I was with her last month, so I was able to help plan for her wedding... but it's not the same as "being there" all the time.

Another thing is that I'm going through... uh, how to say delicately?... changes physically... the beginnings of menopause, actual menopause, not the pre-stuff that's been going on for years. I'm anemic, and have been having some other issues that I won't describe (be thankful! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). I only say that to shed some light on my emotional (and physical) state right now.

For another, we have a car now. This may not be a big deal to most folks... most folks probably cannot imagine life without a vehicle. We don't live in NYC or that kind of town where subways, taxis and trains get you around. We live in a town where you need a car. *We* needed a car. But our engine blew up over the New Year in 2005, and we couldn't afford to get it fixed. So for nearly 18 months we went without a car. Now we have one, and we have wonderlust (what a time... what with gas prices and all! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> ). So, last night we drove to one of our favorite haunts, parked the car, and got out to walk. We walked and talked for nearly two hours.

Okay, so I told my H about this thread, and about my feelings surrounding all that we've discussed. Of course, he's been told this all before (we both have communication/convesation as a top EN, so we talk a LOT). Anyway, he's been told in bits and pieces, but this walk of ours put it all in a two hour block and kind of put it in perspective.

As I've said many times before, my H does not agree with me about our relationship's beginnings. He feels that because our ex's had moved on - to others - and the divorces were filed, that it was not infidelity. So while he *understands* my feelings (on a cognitive level) he really doesn't "get it" from an emotional/spiritual place. He hasn't ever tried to sway me to his position, and he does appreciate my feelings. Still, I struggle. Which is why I keep coming back to this, I s'pose.

Spiritually, my H is Catholic, and has respect for my beliefs, which are very close to his, but there are some differences, too. Heck, I'm not even 100% on board with everything I've been taught through the years. The basics are there: Christ, the Cross, His death and ressurection... but the personal relationship that I used to have is not.

TR, when you say that you are not a good person or Christ wouldn't have needed to save you, that contradicts what I believe. I had to think on it awhile (i.e. my message yesterday)... You see, I understand that I am a sinner saved by grace (grace: one of my favorite words)... but I also truly believe that I am a good person. And when I say that, it doesn't take away the reason I needed saving: Sin.

One of the compassionate gifts I can give myself is the knowledge that no matter what my choices (good or poor)... I did the best I could with what I had in me at the time. And I honestly believe that.

So, I suppose we differ there, TR. And I think that's okay. We don't have to agree on everything.

If I had a "Do Over"... no, I wouldn't have made the choices I did... but I don't. What is the use of hashing this out over and over? (As I have, by the way, as evidenced by the many threads that touch this subject over the years that I've been involved in.)

Guilt is (IMHO) the evil one's way of holding me back in a place of punishment... for something I can't do anything about now...

So... maybe this was the realization I needed to stop being stuck here.

My life goes on... my ex and children's lives go on... my H, his children and his ex's lives go on... all taking twists and turns according to THEIR choices... not everything comes back to me.

Time to move forward, whatever that looks like. I've made so many amends that people are sick of me apologizing. Time to stop beating myself with a big stick. Time to stop harboring "what ifs" and wishing I had a time machine to go back and do it all over. It's been nearly six years, dang it, and I'm tired of all this ruminating.

And, as I say, changes are happening... and it I keep going the way I am (emotionally being stuck) the changes will happen anyway, and there I'll be, 90 years old with a lifetime of guilt and shame on my shoulders, unhappy, bitter and stuck... and my epitaph will read: She was really, really, realy sorry. Forgive her.

I've already been forgiven. Ad naseum. Time for me to believe it...

Somehow, the last few pages of this thread seemed to focus on me... I hope it helped someone to read it... I know it helped me.

ThornedRose,

I agree with you and I don't think I could have said it any better. None of us are "good" although we like to think we are.

Ann

this is just so good!

Thanks

Pep

Well, I *suppose* there is a *chance* that I could have used the wrong word: "good".

I do get what you're saying, all of you who are ganging up on me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I don't know which word would replace the concept I mean... I'll have to think about that now.

Sheryl,

I don't think any of us are ganging up on you, I know I'm not.

For me, it boiled down to one thing whose standard of 'good' am I comparing myself to?

Am I comparing myself to Gods standard of good, which is perfection?

Or

Am I comparing myself to the worlds standard of 'good' that I'm not *as bad* as someone else.

When I stand before God, whose standard is HE going to judge me by? His or the Worlds?

He will be judging me by HIS standard, so shouldn't I do the same thing?

Hi Thorned,

Thank you for your reply. Yes,we are in the process of working on the issues that leads to separation and adulteries and also working on forgiving each other... and forgiving ourselves... which is sometimes much harder to do.

I trust that this is the right thing to do in obedience to God's will for me and my family.

Thanks,
Someone

Someone,

I think it's wonderful the two of you are working together to try and save your marriage.

Make sure you also consult a lawyer so that you can get parenting time with the other children, even though they are not from your marriage, they are still his children and the two of you need to include them in your own family, so they feel loved and accepted by both of you.

As the children are not to blame for the adults choices, yes it may be difficult, but they really do need that.

Just a note as I have been seeking, studying and asking my Christian friends about this subject... the idea that we, as humans, are not basically good.

My studying didn't have to go too far into the Bible... to Genesis 1, actually, and verse 31, specifically.

King James version:
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and morning were the sixth day.

This was on the same day that God created man. Man, along with the rest of creation, was good.

I suspect you will talk of the fall, and sin... certainly something to consider. I haven't finished my study, but I wanted you to know I was serious when I said I was looking and thinking about this.

From a non-Christian perspective, since the whole "died for my sins" thing is as completely foreign to me as are the Greek and Roman gods: I believe that guilt is a good thing. If you do something wrong, you should do you best to rectify it. A person has no business forgiving him or herself - the only one who can forgive you is the wronged party. There is nothing wrong with living with a certain degree of guilt - if you did something wrong, you should continue to feel guilty. A certain degree of guilt does not interfere with living your life, and as a matter of fact helps prevent you from doing wrong again. Of course there is a huge difference between, say, snapping at a coworker and shooting half a dozen people in a convenience store robbery. I don't know how someone who did the latter could live with himself, but probably someone with a conscience wouldn't have committed that crime in the first place. If you feel so guilty that you agonize over it constantly, then that may be a sign that you have not done everything in your power to make it up to the wronged party. If a person killed someone while driving drunk, it would not be possible to make it up to the victim's family, but at least the person could stop drinking and talk to school groups about the horrors that can result from driving drunk. There is usually something you can do to at least partially remediate the situation, ranging from a simple apology to devoting your life to a cause.

TR,

Thank you for your reply. I just finished a long reply but for some reason it did not post- sorry.

Someone