Hi all! I am Carina (okay, not my real name, but I wanted to name my daughter that). I have been separated for a month, been on this board since 2000, and was married since 1998. I was with my husband 13 years altogether. Lucky 13...(sorry, bad attempt at humour!).

My husband and I fought or struggled over every aspect of married life. From sex (a big fight!) to parenting, money, time together...there as never any agreeing for the most part. We pushed or pulled one another, or tried to reason, or withdrew...
My husband abused my kids phsysically and me emotionally for a long time. He withdrew from me for long periods and withheld affection, sex, conversation even. I tend to be emotional and also loving and generous, so my way to deal was to give more and more and more..until I had nothing left and just burnt out inside.
I really spent the last few years wondering who I was existing for anyway.
My husbands abuse on the kids has been sporadic over years with instances reported to FACS. The last incident was the straw that brokew the camels back and I moved out of the marital home.
He is now living with his folks so I was able to move back in, and my house is up for sale.
I am faced with so many things right now-I ahve 3 children. A teenager, a pre-teen and a daughter in JK. I am handling everything, the counselling for the kids to boot, and also run a store.

The hardest part about all of this separation so far has been wondering how to deal with teh many mixed emotions. Some days, i miss my husband, no matter how gorrible he has been. Other days I despise him and wish he would die. Some days I want to hide in a corner and others go out and accomplish a list of things so Ifeel like I have achieved something positive.
I sometimes wonder why this hand has been dealt to me and wonder what is next.

I have lost a few friendships along the way, but gained a few too. Anyway, you will probably find me on here from time to time posting to either help you or gripe, so either way, look forward to getting to know this side of the board!

First welcome to MB. I just joined but wish that I knew about this site before. It might have help me dealing with my last relationship with my Ex. I know now that my ex has what is call NPD. But here is my story:

My ex of 17 years left my two boy’s ages 12 and 15 in May of this year. She told me that she met someone and wanted to leave. I agree, but she told the children that she would live with her parent. On the night that she left she told our children “that nothing will change, just your father and I will not be living together anymore”. The 12 year old son’s heart was broken and my 15 said he didn’t care if she left. One week later, I get a phone call from Wisconsin from her. The children and I live in Illinois. I did some research and found out the phone number was in Lodi, Wisconsin. I didn’t let her know that I had this information. AT my request, My sister called my ex’s parents home to ask for her. Her mother lied to her, (I guess lying runs in the family) telling her that “she was out looking for a job”. My sister called me back and confirmed that she wasn’t there and agreed with me that she was now living in Wisconsin. I did some more research and found out that this man she was living with was still married and just file for a divorce in July. His ex left him and moved to Colorado Spring, CO. My ex lied to my children, my family and me. I gave her my new home phone number with the understanding that she never would give it to her family or anyone else. That the number was for her to talk with boys. I tried to get them to talk with her. But both children refused. She cries at me stating “why don’t they want to talk with me, I replied maybe they just need some time”. I didn’t know what to say. After that when she called I would ask them if they wanted to speak with her. “No dad, I have nothing to say to her”. I told the boys that you need to tell her that. They agreed and told her that they didn’t want her to call and didn’t want to talk with her. After that, she told me “I don’t have to talk with YOU anymore”. I agreed and told her that was fine and hung up the phone. I stopped answering the phone. My ex would just let it ring, ring and ring. I told the boys that maybe you should write her a letter telling her you don’t want to talk, see or visit her. Maybe then she would understand. They did! One night I was talking with my sister on the phone (call waiting) and received another call on the other line. When I answered the other line it was her new boyfriend from Wisconsin telling me “not to have my children write those kind of letters”. And that he didn’t believe that my boys wrote these letters. I don’t remember much of that conversation, but I do remember RAGE! After saying some colorful words, I called and asked my sister to call my ex and validate the letter to her to be true and it was how the boys felt. My ex refused to talk with my sister, so that she had to talk with the boyfriend. My sister has never been unkind to my ex. Why my ex refused to speak with her is unknown to this day. Because she broke her promise concerning my home phone number I had to change it. To this day my children want nothing to do with her. They refuse to talk, see or visit her. I can’t say that I blame them because I feel the same. We have 3 children together. The two boys are with me but my baby she has. Let me make this very clear, if I knew of her plans to leave the state, I would have never allow her to take my youngest son. This breaks my heart everyday. My ex lost custody of two children from her previous married and to this day, these children refuse to see, talk or visit her. She never paid a penny in child support or did any thing that she was ordered to by the judge. My question to you is “what kind of mother would do this to her children”. I need answers because I can’t understand why anyone would not only do this once but twice in their lifetime.

Update: I know now why she acts the way she does. My ex is what is called a NPD: "Part of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is the conviction is that "I'm okay, it's everybody else who's not okay," so narcissists rarely seek treatment voluntarily."


I hope that your H can get help and that you may be able to keep your family together. I know how it feels to give and give in a relationship and get nothing in return. I too feel the same way with my ex. Understanding why your H is the way he is will help you to heal, maybe forgive him. I hope you find the answers that I know you are looking for!

CD welcome back. Take it easy, slow and steady.
Do what is best for you and your children.

Hey Carina.

Welcome to the other side.

It will get better. Personally, I think it's perfectly normal to wish occassionally you ex or STBX would die. It's also normal to be sad. It will stablize as you adapt to a new routine.

Hang in there.

Carina, I remember chatting with you a long time ago on this site - not the divorce section though as we were both holding on to a type of marriage not made in heave. I have been separated for two years and haven't yet finished the divorce. I can at least give you hope that with time it doesn't hurt as much as it does within a few months of leaving - I remember the first few months as being so painful, so lonely and I had little hope.

Being a single mom is very hard, I only have one little boy who's almost 3 and I get very exhausted doing it all on my own. Sometimes I still consider going back - usually on my down days. I haven't had the energy to finish the divorce (the attorneys stick, the system is adversaraial) and when I try, I get threats from him about money - and now all of a sudden he's interested in our child again. We all had dreams of what marriage should be and this "warped" version is not how it was intended. Having to start over at almost 40 is very depressing having lived in beautiful homes, but life does go on.

You are very brave to finally leave, especially if he was abusing your children as well. As you know counselors are going to tell you that there is only a very small percentage of men who actually change and stop the violence once it starts. The cycle doesn't make sense to me, I tried for years to understand it - how on earth a man could physically hurt his wife - and think it's ok, or her fault. You can spend a lot of time trying to figure out this crazy man, your marriage - or you can move on and heal day by day. Life isn't going to be perfect as a single mom, it'll be so hard at times, it'll be a joy at times - but overall I'd rather have this anyday then living in ******, crying all the time, feeling so out of control with that man. Men like that are crazy makers, they push our buttons purposefully, they want to keep us women down - it's very, very sick. But on our own we can slowly rebuild our self esteem, and have some peace. Life is about enjoyment and peace, not being miserable.

Gables is right, you'll adapt to a new routine. It takes awhile. But you and your kids will handle this. I was told by a lady at church who was divorce, to keep a list of all of the horrible things my ex did to me, what he said - near the phone. When I felt like calling him or getting back together I had the reminder right there. (You say sometimes no matter how bad it was you think of moving back). I didn't call him most of the time, sometimes I gave in, was pathetic and he treated me worse. A christian counselor told me at the time, no matter what "stay where you are", do NOT move back in. The only "chance" that he would turn around would be to stay away - and I think this wise counselor believed my ex's turnaround to be a slim one as on the side he counseled men who where vioent seeing that very few turned around. He said men like this typically come from very disfunctional homes, when we ask for support they don't even know what we are talking about, norm to them is very, very strange, defensive and perverted.

So I pass that advice along to you - whatever you do, stay where you are, without him for at least six months. Don't move back thinking things will be different if this has gone on so long. The longer you stay away the less you enabale him to be a pig. The more he'll be alone with himself, not blaming you for "his" problems. Keep your expenses down, remember this is temporarly, you'll rebuild your life. Keep the list by the phone, try not to call him and argue with him. If he's been violent stay safe - as you know this is the point where women can get hurt after leaving their exes. Try not to argue with. Let him cry, plead whatever - but keep a firm tone in your voice, you always have things to do (maybe keep a list of what you have to do as well (cook, go to the store, pick up a child, whatever). The only way he has control now is if you let him push your buttons, if you cry, if you let him see you down.

I prided myself at the point you are in moving forward. Those days I'd get depressed I'd exercise and work on my diet. I lost weight. I redid my wardrobe, got a new haircut, made some new friends... this man wasn't going to push me down, for so long in our marriage he wanted me to be miserable. He thrived on it I believe. I still feel sorry for him, two years later he still thinks he did nothing wrong - if you call it narrccism or what, it's an insane sick personality type. And it's us women (or sometimes men) who have experienced such relationships that make the shrinks rich... I hope you can go step by step healing from this. Stay in touch here on this board, it's a nice place to share. Take care of yourself.

Yes horsey2 and Carina your ex's sounds like a narccisitic person. My heart goes out to people who have lived that nightmare. My ex is also a Narccisitic personality. But you sound like some very strong people. Just try to stay strong. I know that my ex and I will never be together again. I loved her and it causes pain to know this to be true.

Why do I believe this? Please read this, it was written by a Dr who treats family's that live with narcissistic individuals:

Narcissists hate to live alone. Their inner resources are skimpy, static, and sterile, nothing interesting or attractive going on in their hearts and minds, so they don't want to be stuck with themselves. All they have inside is the image of perfection that, being mere mortals like the rest of us, they will inevitably fall short of attaining. A striking thing about narcissists that you'll notice if you know them for a long time is that their ideas of themselves and the world don't change with experience; the ones I've known have been stalled at a vision that came to them by the age of sixteen.

This is just one of many traits in a Narcissists personality...

My husband is 16 years old. Two divorces and now this one. His best friends are those that behave like they are 16 drinking and going to ball games yet he somehow holds executive positions (for periods of time as narcissists always move on when "discovered"). He has an image of perfection, and as I've read about "these types" his mates - including myself - have been his teddy bears, to drag around and so long as they cooperated everything was "fine." But lack of cooperation would make his world less perfect, and thus the teddy bear, would be "punished" in one way or another. Patricia Evans has some good books on the subject of abusive relationships, this teddy bear thing she wrote about and I think it must be true. This is the stangest personality "type" I've ever come across, my mom warned me before I married the man that I had no idea what it would be like to marry someone like "this." She saw through him as apparently my grandfather was abusive to her as a child and to her mother, my grandmother. He once told her in his dying year that he hated himself and could never love another. I think there must have to be a certain amount of self loathing for someone to go through life destroying and never being accountable for their actions. Never caring what they've put others through. Somehow it seems like a criminal - although they are in disguise - and these guys are sometimes weariing suits and ties and presenting themselves as the perfect man, employee, you name it... a shrink once said he also felt sorry for those who have hired my ex, he puts on such a show, and then with time his "show" becomse so rediculous - he's disruptive towards coworks and customers I'm sure. Nope, these men will hold on to marriages, when you leave them they'll beg, plead and do whatever (temporarily) it takes to get you back, acting they can do. And once you return they will smash you with more might then before. It's the craziest most insane cycle a man - or woman - could experience. I quit making the counselors rich in the aftermath, going to one after another - they "know" my ex, and they've seen the "aftermath" of this... they know what the ex will do, how he'll behave, you name it. Now I do think I'd recogine what you call the "bad guys" even in disguise a mile away. Oh boy will I. Still it saddens me to see someone waste their life like this - true, a "normal" person would want to learn life's lessons, they wouldn't keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again just to get the same results - and not be responsible for the divorce and pain. I'm not even sure that 16 is the right age a person like this is "stuck" at... most the time with him it was like arguing with a kindergartener emotionally. Or even like my "arguments" with a two year old that are mostly senseless - that's mine, I want that, me, me, me... a two year old man in a 50 year old body is fairly pathetic. Tiring enough to actually deal with the two year old and do whatever it'll take so he won't become like a a father, so he'll treat women with respect one day, so some young woman will marry him and say "thank you."

My greatest fear is Carina's that he'll hurt my child, that he'll treat him with distain when he's not "perfect." How sad to hurt a child.

Horsey2: I feel your pain, DC is too struck at 15-16 of age. She destroyed 4 children's lifes. Making the same Mistakes over and over again. We had so many therapies and none saw this trait of NPD in her. Why, she would only go a few time and then quit. All of her children want nothing to do with her. Except maybe her daughter that will only talk (I know that her daughter has personality disorders as well) with her if she wants something. But I notice that her mother is always the last person on that list. Her daughter is a user, like her mother! Her daughter has lied, cheated and would steal anything so that she could get her drugs, you name it she did it, drugs I mean. Now no one in her daughters life; family, friends want anything to do with her. Her poor daughter (I tried to help her, but she is a lost cause as well.) would run away from her father (who is also using drugs, and even would ask his daughter to buy them for him, sick!) did drugs, Had a train done on her, in one of her many drunken states. Is bi-sexual. God only knows what else she is into. I guess (God this women; her daughter is only 19 years of age!)in short her daughter turned out just like her mother, a controller and user. Her other son refuses to speak with her and her ex-husband. So I really don’t have any information on how his life turned out. But I heard a rumor that he is gay. Was DC to blame for all this, no but she did have a part in it. What makes me mad is the lack of empathy for her two other children. I saw no concern or pain about how her two other children suffered. It’s the same lack of empathy she is showing my two children. I poured my heart and love into this person and nothing would change in her. She is the same person today that I started dating 17 years ago. How a person can treat people like dirt and then expect respect back is insane! In 17 years I never once felt love from this person. I never in the years with our children did I see any love for them as well. I know now why it was so easy for my children to just let her. Telling me that I had the problem and needed to change, which I did! Over and over again but nothing would change in her so our relationship just stayed the same. I just gave up! I had nothing more to gave into this relationship. I guess that’s when she started looking for her next partner (victim) after I refuse to support her! God help me I gave So much into this relationship that I started neglecting my own children’s needs. When I discovered this in myself, I STOP! Telling her “if you need things then go get a job and buy them yourself, I must take care of my children’s needs but not your needs”. She didn’t want to marry me but she had no problem with me supporting her! I begged her to work, to help with the financial need of our family. Oh yes, she did work but only part-time and then after 5 years at Jewel tried to sue them for a false injury at her job. This workman’s comp suit took her more then 3 years. In those 3 years she didn’t work. Would received only $98.00 per week for workerman’s comp then after the company settled she only received $3,100.00. That was the last straw that broke the cameral back for me! I had enough of her and her fraud, and lies. That’s when I told her enough was enough and and again would no longer support her! I told her I never believed that she was injured and wanted nothing to do with her suited. This woman put herself on warfare (and stayed on it for years) and would lie to them about me not living with my children and her so that she would keep receiving warfare benifits. I told her not to and to tell the truth to DHS, but she refused too! She told me that if DHS would find out (I wanted to call them and tell DHS to stop giving her warfare) they would put her in jail! What could do? What would my children think about me being the cause of their mother going to jail because of me? God these people put your family and you into traps that are impossibly to get out!!!!! Not caring how it will affect you and your family. Why will those people not get help? Please read the following post.

"Narcissists are generally not candidates for conventional analytical treatment, since psychological analysis is a dialogue and narcissism is a soliloquy. Because of narcissists' incapacity for genuine relationship, their treatment tends to be of the "Band-Aid" variety that deals with specific acute difficulties, such as depression, which can be treated with drugs. Part of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is the conviction is that "I'm okay, it's everybody else who's not okay," so narcissists rarely seek treatment voluntarily. Some wait until they are in such bad shape that they require hospitalization. Because narcissists' self-image is so scanty and fragile, they depend on the reflection of themselves in others' perception to be aware of themselves; sometimes it is really as if these people do not have bodies, have no real material existence. Therefore, social isolation, such as comes following the loss of a job, the failure of a marriage, or the alienation of friends and family, has swift and terrible effects on narcissists. Their thinking quickly deteriorates into chaotic incoherency and disorganization. For this reason, when they do receive treatment, the therapists' first order of business is to restore and fortify the narcissists' ego defenses -- i.e., the therapist must help the narcissist recover the habitual grandiose and self-obsessed self-image. When reasonably recovered, the narcissist usually leaves therapy before any work can be done on the underlying personality disorder. prime characteristic of narcissists is believing that they are always right no matter what, narcissists are extremely resistant to change and, unfortunately, tend to get worse as they get older"

Well CD, you've gotten quite a bit on this thread. I, too, believe my X is NPD (as does my DD's counselor & our mediator). I also view him as a 17 YO, not a fully evolved adult.

Just so you know, problems continue post divorce/post split. The mediator told me I'd be back in court every two years with X (it occurred sooner). The "I want what I want" mentality is that of a child, and not fair to the x or the children. I too fear that he will hurt the children, just to hurt me. And emotionally, I already see him hurting the kids.
The counselor told me the girls have to gear up for their dad weekends because they don't know when to expect "The wrath of dad". How sad for the children.

The saving grace is that the children are out of that environment on a daily basis. It is up to you CD to make a home that is safe for them, physically and emotionally. I truly believe in counseling, and know my children need it to help them understand the divorce, and their lives. I hope you get the resources you and your children need to heal. Life is better outside of these types of bad marriages. Life is a struggle, but the blessings are wonderful.

newly you are right! These people put pass relationship on the back burner. And will tell whoever they are now with that they will go back to thier ex! Who of course want nothing to do with them! This is what scares me the most! That DC will try to get back together with her now used up emotionally family! Plus, I need to try and get my youngest back from her! She has the baby with her. I didn't know that she was planning to leave the state with the baby, if I did I would have never allow her to take him! God, lying for these people is so damn easy!!

Read this qoute from a Dr who studies NPD's.

"The other "punishment" narcissists mete out is banishing you from their glorious presence -- this can turn into a farce, since by this point you are probably praying to be rescued, "Dear God! How do I get out of this?" The narcissist expects that you will be devastated by the withdrawal of her/his divine attention, so that after a while -- a few weeks or months (i.e., the next time the narcissist needs to use you for something) -- the narcissist will expect you to have learned your lesson and be eager to return to the fold. If you have learned your lesson, you won't answer that call. They can't see that they have a problem; it's always somebody else who has the problem and needs to change."

CD: please be careful when dealing with your H. You how no ideal how much problems this type of person can cause and how much pain they can cause for your children and yourself! Protecting the children is first, no matter what you must do! Plan ahead in case you and the children need to get away FAST!! Keep a journal on things that he might do in the future. Keep records of phone calls, visits with the children when they (alone) see him . Look for marks on them. Take photo's if you see any. Keep good records. In short document, document! You may need them for court.

Newly, that's what I'm afraid of. My ex could care less for a year about his child, barely saw him every 3-4 months because he couldn't "afford" to travel four hours - but I cracked his emails, he was affording fishing, trips to ballgames, outings with friends, you name it during this time period. But now it appears he wants his child, he's job hunting here in my town - it's true what you said - the motto "me, me, me - and if I want it I want it now" without any regards to anyone else. I believe by not seeing me or his child he was actually banishing us from what Sag calls his glorious presence. I really think he believed we'd wear out of life without him, rather then making steps to reconcile or support his child - he refused a dime for a year until I filed - he wanted us to suffer to see how great he was. Yes he did expect us to "learn our lessons" from this little phase - what he called a "phase" was me dealing with his physical abuse, finally throwing him in jail, leaving with nothing, sleeping on a mattress for months at an apartment, all the while flying home monthly to care for a father dying of cancer... during all of this he was a pig, so arrogant, sitting in the basement night after night drinking - and everything was "fine" to him so long as we didn't disturb him and that meant a fight. Funny during this little "episode" rather then going down I went up, lost my baby weight - 60 pounds working out, got healthier, gave myself a makeover, moved, made new friends and started going to church again. Believe me this is NOT what he wanted to see, a counselor said that's why he didn't visit us, if I'd been down it would have been one thing. There's a website on this narcissm that I read about on this site actually. It's true there are "games" to play when you leave and divorce a man like this. On one hand my advice is wrong to Corina if he's a true narcist as to divorce them it might be better to put on an act that you are sad, mentally ill yourself and that you just weren't "good enough" for them - and a typically guy like this will be off to other things. What they don't like is to see their "subjects" getting stronger... someone who posted here years ago said my husband was a narcisst, a counselor thought so too, I read up on it and it's true, if he's not he's as close as you get the abusive pig.

Carina, we didn't mean to take over your posting, hope you share with us more.

Yes, ditto Carina. But it would help you to understand what is happening in your life to come to some understanding about your H and why he does what He Does. Please keep up informed as to your progress.

Wow, thats really heartbreaking. I remember being to that brink...not even thinknig of family or anyhting but ME. Thank god Ididnt end up doing that...I have been lucky enough to be grounded out of fog and focussed on one thing-my kids!

In my case, H and I wont be getting back together.
I really dont see it happening.
Too much lost trust, on both sides...

It sounds like you have been through so much--how do you keep going forward without regret..is it just a matter of looking forward?

Wow, I really like the idea of keeping the list next to the phone. Just would be worried one of the kids would see it or run off with [email]it@![/email] lol
Luckily I have had to do a lot of the stuff on my own already, so the transition isnt that big. ITs being alone at night, but my kdis keep me busy.
I am trying to keep busy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
But boy, some days I jsut feel sorry for him. I mean, I knew him as a better man, dont need to kick him when he is down, as much as I want to.
So in feeling sorry for him, sometiems I want to call him.
But usually I can stop myself.
:S
I get ya about starting over having lived in beautiful homes.
The life I had is just a ghost...and the only thing concrete is the four walls I have now!

lol...thats okay <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
idont know if my H is a narcissist...
my dad is definately one, so I can define it.
He is abusive and unable to express himself when he is angry in a healthy way.
I dont know if he is any more han that, tho.

The life I had is a ghost too, I've never been back to the big house on the hill where we used to live but I often think that it was a very lonely person that lived there. At least I'm getting out of two years of apartment life here soon, I just rented a little house with a yard for my 2 year old boy. He'll enjoy life more, and that will make me happy. I've been in "limbo" two years, a good friend told me that she had to divorce her jerk for a husband right after leaving him or she would have never done it. That's what she told me to do, and I can pass that advice along to you.

If you go down the "limbo" road like me, things are never resolved, seems like a divorce would at least bring closure to years of a bad marriage. I'm such a wimp I start feeling sorry for him, and he knows I'm that way. Us women are wide open for abuse as Dobson says in Tough Love because it's our "job" we are natural "nurturers." My mom says my grandmother who died young from stress I'm sure never left her abusive husband, my grandfather as she felt sorry for him. Although friends can't relate to me not divorcing him, I can relate to the grandmother I barely knew. It's harder then you think to leave someone and divorce someone you obvioiusly loved.

My mom once said once trust is lost it's a marriage of convenience. I think she's likely right. I don't trust this man, he's proven himself to be so untrustworthy for so long. Even lately white lies on job hunting and seeing his son. It just get's old. I KNOW he's this way yet it still hurts. I should have taken the shrinks advice and that from the gal from church - distance from this man emotionally always. Sometimes I give in and chat too much with him then he gets hopeful that we can work things out, so do I a bit. And the cycle goes on and on and on. At least he left the state but now he's saying he might move back and I'm staying very unemotional - if he sees that it just might be best that he not move back to be near his child. Inside I think it could make my life living ******.

It's true, being alone at night is hard, this is the time of year it's worse as it gets dark so early. Spring's around the corner - and a fresh start for you we all hope.

Carina: You said that your father has a Narcissist personality disorder. Then you might want to read this. Again, this paper is from a Dr. that works on this type of disorder.



I too was raised by a Narcissist person, My father, I never knew it until I started studying this personality disorder.
That would explain was I was so pulled to my ex!

Sag, I'm learning from this if anyone is. I trust Dr. Phil's wisdom too most of the time. Oh, the power moves and "tests..." What creates a narcissist? I think I remember that it's common in first born sons from very strong mothers who are also like this... that's my ex. Do you know?

I again will have to refer to the text book theory:

Before I started studying this research, I blame myself for our breakup. Yes, I gave all that I could but doubted myself. Thinking was there anything else I could have done to save this relationship. Because I learned the cause and effect, I can now understand that “enough would never be enough” for an NPD.

Strange that you and Carina use the term Ghost: I too felt like a ghost in her life. I was there but never a part of her or her life. She was allowed to go alone to her parent's, friends or whatever by herself. One time (God, is this the unstatement of the year; once!) was very upset with her and wanted to visit my sister with the boys and I alone. She got very upset and stated (or should I say shouted) "what are you doing to do, talk about me". But as always, Mr. nice gave in and told her I was sorry and let her come as well. If I wanted to go someplace along I would get the "20 questions" regularly. But if I wanted to know were she had been, it was "you are trying to control me. Or I had to pick up a few thing after work. Oh, yea it take two hours to pick up two items at the store. Right!

Hi Carina,

No advice, I've already given you mine... This divorce thing is just tacky, no other way to define it...

Make it a great day! Heck, go all out and make it a great year!!!

Hugs,

Jan