My pastor is overseas, so I'm posing this question to you until he gets back... for some of you may have asked the same question.

So my husband is not a God fearing man. I know this is not the place to raise a child, so we've separated. I thought about just being separated, but I've decided I need a divorce to legally protect myself from his future problems (DUIs, bankruptcy, etc.).

The bible says "whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." He has not cheated, that I can find. So this means that if I find someone (someday WAY far in the future), I'm an adulterer? or am I missing something somewhere?

WaterOak, I'm sorry that it's come to this, but I'm glad that you're taking steps to protect your daughter, even when it is hard. Plan B has a chance of helping a situation like this, so you may not need to worry about the remarriage part yet. I think in Matthew it says not to worry about tomorrow's problems, because tomorrow will bring it's own The Lord may still reveal Himself to your H.

That said, Dobson's Love Must be Tough goes into the different scenarios in detail. I encourage you to get it from the library and read through it. I think in there you will also find validation for your actions, the loving toughness to protect your family. Best wishes to you, wherever the road leads!

We've been in plan B for months and I'm going to Alanon. He said this is ok with him, and refuses to give up the bottle (his OW). I have hope, but no expectations.

I know I'm doing the right thing. Right before Matthew 5 talks about divorce he talks about severing members to save the whole. That's what I'm doing... preserving the good. I'm ok with that (as painful as it is).

There's his porn, which is adultery of the heart, which could be seen as a valid reason, but I feel like I'm reaching a bit. If it's a sin, it's a sin (it's not like it's my first sin). It may just be the price I pay for marrying the wrong man and having my marriage on autopilot for so many years. We all make mistakes, that's what forgiveness is for.

WaterOak,
I do understand your pain. You are right when you say sin is sin. If you did not feel you were doing the wrong thing in divorcing I don't think you would have ask the question. Even your pastor might not tell you what I am going to. I only want to give you another view and am not saying this is for everyone. My husband has a sexual addiction which I feel was and is because of generational sin. His father cheated on his mother, his grandmother had the same problem. So this has come down to him from generations before.
We have no children together and when I found out about his affair I was ready to let go. Then God started dealing with me and directing me to stand for my marriage. What that means is that I am to pray for my husband. Intercede for him to and before God. My husband is at this time living with another woman, they have been living together on and off for over a year. I should add we are also divorced by man's law not God's.
I still live as a married woman would I do not date and if my husband never came back in God's sight I should remain single. Trust me I don't like that part but I know that is what I must do. It gives you allot of incentive to pray hard for your husband
There are many things going on in my husbands life that show me that indeed God is at work. Just one of the nicer examples is that while the ow was gone for awhile we went to church together. It was a church we had went to years ago and in a different town so no one knew what was going on with us. The sermon the pastor preached on could have been written for my husband only. He cried all the way through it. Afterwards he told me God had gotten his attention. It was not enough she started calling him again and they are back together. As I said it is a sexual addiction and he had other women while she was gone and has still been trying to find more. There is much I could tell you that is going on but I only was trying to show you the option of standing for your marriage and that it is not always easy but at least in my case I feel it is right. Please pray and ask God what is right for you

WaterOak, it seems to me, you take the Bible quite literally. I personally did divorce my H and have since remarried. I did nothing wrong in the eyes of my church even though my ex probably did not fornicate. Instead, my ex practiced financial infidelity and some claim he emotionally abused me.

However, if you do believe the Bible should be taken literally, In II Corinthians, Paul says "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers; for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

You can also consider that Matthew says "a MAN shall not set aside his WIFE," he says nothing about a wife divorcing her husband. Considering that most women were powerless at the time, and could not divorce, Matthew probably didn't feel he needed to say anything about women initiating divorce. Also, consider that at the time, if a man divorced his wife, she was likely to have to turn to prostitution or begging in order to live. By telling men they should not divorce their wives because they got old, or were barren, or couldn't cook, Matthew was protecting women.

I do take the bible quite literally. I do believe I married the wrong man. I've always been second (or third, or fifth), though I didn't believe it for YEARS. He has never loved me as God loves the church. I do remember seeing some text about an unholy union, not blessed by God, but I can't seem to find it at the moment.

Blah... this sucks.

I know it sucks.

FWIW, I think God so inspired the writers of the Bible that there are loopholes for those who take it literally. After all, those who do take it literally don't go around chopping off hands and plucking out their eyes.

One of those loopholes could be that Matthew was talking about a man putting aside his wife, not a dutiful wife getting rid of her undutiful, uncaring housemate. You may have been married in the eyes of your church, but I have to wonder if you were married in God's eyes. I wonder that about a lot of bad marriages I've seen, including my first. I'm 99% sure God sent me all kinds of signs saying "Don't marry this one. Bad idea." And, idiot that I am, I ignored them all. God pretty much has to hit me over the head sometimes. I don't think God really considered B and me "one." We weren't, He knew it, and God's too smart to pretend.

I know you've been struggling with this dilemma a long time. You're in my prayers.

So then if you've decided, then what is the point of asking God, the pastor or anyone else? It seems to me that you've already decided what you want to do, and want folks to say your decision is OK.

I don't think that is how God works. I think God designed marriage to be a life long bond, which is why He wants us to pick carefully.

But, if we don't choose carefully, I don't think God says, here is you way out. Remember the words of Jesus, to paraphrase, divorce is not part of God's plan. He allows it, but it's not God's design for divorce to happen.

The history of mankind is full of all sorts of rules where we try to get around God's designs.

I think that's exactly what it says. If you choose to leave a man who is sexually faithful then you are choosing to put yourself in a position where you may commit adultery in the future, should you choose to marry again.

You'll hear all sorts of folks saying you deserve happiness, etc. Frankly, I find little in scripture about being happy. Happy is transient. I think God is far more concerned about your holiness.

You say your husband doesn't fear God. Does that mean he is not a believer, or merely that he doesn't practice his faith. For if he's a member of the church, then it's possible he could come under church discipline.

If your state has legal protections under separation then I can't see any reason not to pursue legal separation and if your husband wants to work on the marriage, you can give him the pastor's contact information and he could coach your husband into a proper relationship with God and as your husband.

If one goes all the way back to the fall of man in Genesis 3, God doesn't accept our excuses for our sinful behavior when we try to blame others.

God refused Adam's blameshift towards Eve, God refused Eve's blameshift towards the serpent. So I don't think God will treat anyone's blameshift towards their spouse for human thinking such as financial infidelity, or emotional infidelity or basically any kind of human imagined infidelity other than the one God clearly states, which is sexual infidelity, I don't think God's going to say He's OK with the sin of choosing to divorce a sexually faithful spouse.

I think of the story of Abigail and Nabal. Nabal was a foolish (his name actually means fool) abusive husband, and yet Abigail was faithful to him and actually acted to protect him from David's anger.

Abigail trusted God to take care of the matter, and God struck down her husband and she became David's wife.

Personally, I think that's the example God wants us to follow. I'm not saying someone being abused needs to stick around to be a punching bag. I think they are to seek safety. But that doesn't mean they get a free ride to unilaterally end their marriage.

I think the believer is called to try to remain in the marriage. But if offending spouse, the abuser, addict, adulterer etc, chooses divorce, I think in that case, the believer is free and actually called to let them go.

But in any case that doesn't involve sexual infidelity with another person, I believe God calls believers to do everything possible to work out the marriage, and if the marriage is to end, it is to be at the hands of the offending spouse, not the faithful, believing spouse.

If you take a vow before God, then you ARE married in the eyes of God. Your marital status doesn't hinge on what your spouse is doing or is not doing, you are married.

The only reason stated in scripture where God is "OK" with choosing divorce and later remarrying is in the case of sexual infidelity.

Any other case where a believer chooses to divorce, they are choosing to commit adultery.

There are no gender based loopholes. Today, women have the power to choose to divorce, so if they choose to divorce a man who is faithful, the are guilty of this sin.

Now all sins are forgivable. Yet Paul tells us that we are not to keep sinning so that grace can flourish. We are called to be holy, not necessarily happy.

From what I read in scripture, God is more interested in us finding joy, His Joy in being obedient to his Word.

Personally, I don't think any believer should counsel or encourage another believer to choose to divorce. In my opinion, in most cases that advice is encouraging another believer to sin. Given scriptures warnings about causing another to stumble, I cannot in good conscience counsel any believer to choose divorce.

Scripture is the story of God seeking reconciliation with his unfaithful bride, Israel. He went as far as to send His son to die for the sins of Israel and the whole of humanity. I don't think God wants us to divorce simply because we are not happy, or we are scared, or anything else like that.

I had talked to my pastor about my husband's drinking awhile back. He had talked to my husband and my husband denied everything. After that my husband became very abusive. My pastor and and I both decided that if the drinking continued (along with his anger problems and emotional infidelity) it would be best for us to separate. There is much scripture warning to stay away from drunkards... not even to dine with them. A separation would be necessary to protect DD and I financially and physically. A DUI or accident involving alcohol could be really bad for us if we're tied to him (thus the severing to save the whole). Unfortunately my state does not have a legal separation. It's just married or divorced, so in order to protect DD and I, I need a divorce.

I've also thought, this is protecting him too. I'll put up with alot. He can abuse me all he wants and I'll eventually forgive him. If he starts that with DD, I'll NEVER forgive him. There will be no reconciliation. The only thing between him and DD right now is me and I can't be there all the time. It seems strange to me that a separation would protect a marriage, but in this case it will. The pain has to stop in order to heal. If he will not stop the pain then I will.

To me, it looks like the scripture says if I am to divorce, I am to remain alone. After much reading and prayer, I think that's what I will do. I know God hates divorce; I would do a legal separation if my state allowed it. So I will file and consider this a long term 'Plan B'.

I've been reading your thread.

My husband is a recovering addict. On our wedding day, he knew he was an addict, and he failed to disclose this to me. I do believe this would be strong enough for an annullment if we were to divorce.

If we would have to divorce at some point, I wouldn't want to marry again. I don't know how old your child is, but both of mine are under 5. Frankly, I'd have no energy to date. I barely have enough energy now to work, take care of the kids and help with home caring tasks.

I've also learned that all my "intimate" relationships (with my parents and my husband) are and have been unsafe. I don't really know that I'd want to put myself in a position where I could enter another unsafe relationship. I actually don't trust myself to make a wise choice, should that ever present itself.

Because of all of my baggage, should I need to divorce, I think I'd prefer to stay alone..

WaterOak - I am one who does take the Bible "literally."

It IS possible that you married the wrong man, as in disobeying God's teaching to "not be unequally yoked."

If your husband is NOT a believer, then it's rather naive to think that he would even "consider" being obedient to God, don't you think?




Okay, let's see if we can give you some Biblically based input to consider.




Actually, a more correct translation is "marital unfaithfulness."

That is one of the reasons why a believing spouse is told by God to REMAIN married to an unbelieving spouse IF the unbelieving spouse DOES fulfill his/her maritial roles that God has assigned, AS IF he was a believer.

But if the unbelieving spouse chooses to leave, Paul has made it clear that the believing spouse should "let them go."

While "marital unfaithfulness" is most commonly associated with sexual sin, it is not the only form of unfaithfulness. However, between two BELIEVERS, Christ was clear (and you cannot "parse" or "read into" the text that it only applied to MEN) that "marital unfaithfulness" was grounds to end a marriage.

Between a believer and an unbeliever, the same is binding upon the believer.

While it is true that God hates all divorce, it is equally true that God hates "infidelity" in marriage just as much.

Please rememeber that God is a God of Peace and will not "require" you remain in a marriage that does not bring Him honor and glory.

God bless.

Yup, totally failed on that one. As an excuse, I will say that my husband does say he's a believer... in the sense that if you ask him "is there a God" he will say "yes", but that's where it ends. He has not joined any church and lives a lifestyle that is rather sinful. For some reason I expected this to change when we got married. I was listening to what he SAID and not looking at what he DID. Sometimes I'm amazed at how blind I can be.

You're right. There is no way this marriage (in its current state) can bring Him honor and glory. He hates divorce, but he also hates drunkenness, etc. I don't think He'd want me to stay and allow my daughter and I to be abused just to keep from divorcing.

I guess the answer would depend on your denomination. If you were Catholic you would need to seek annullment in order to remarry.

That IS one of the RCC traditions. But it is not mentioned anywhere in Scripture.

Jesus is the "definitive word" on this subject, and He was quite clear that the Pharasitic "tradition" concerning "ending" (or annuling if you prefer) a marriage was wrong. The marriage was never to be "decreed" as "not having existed." Jesus spoke to the conditions upon which a divorce could be granted whereby the faithful spouse would not then commit adultery if they later chose to remarry.

There are MANY people who "say" they are believers, but who don't necessarily believe in Christ, don't believe that Jesus IS God the Son, and who simply think that merely saying they are believers is "enough."

That "idea" is refuted by Jesus who clearly revealed to us that there will be MANY, who on the Judgment Day, are rejected. He will tell them "Away from me you evildoers, I NEVER knew you."

Given that Jesus will NOT "lose" any that ARE His, it is clear that many never were saved, regardless of what they might like to think. The reason for that is also very simple, God has revealed to us what it is that DOES provide a "saving faith."

And as long as we are living, it is "never too late."

However, to your issue at hand, God will NOT require you remain in an abusive marriage. He grants believers the CHOICE to remain or to divorce, but not for "irreconcilable differences," aka, simply because I "want to".

FH wrote:
It IS possible that you married the wrong man, as in disobeying God's teaching to "not be unequally yoked."

If your husband is NOT a believer, then it's rather naive to think that he would even "consider" being obedient to God, don't you think?



Originally Posted By: WaterOakMy pastor is overseas, so I'm posing this question to you until he gets back... for some of you may have asked the same question.

Okay, let's see if we can give you some Biblically based input to consider.



Originally Posted By: WaterOakSo my husband is not a God fearing man. I know this is not the place to raise a child, so we've separated. I thought about just being separated, but I've decided I need a divorce to legally protect myself from his future problems (DUIs, bankruptcy, etc.).

The bible says "whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." He has not cheated, that I can find. So this means that if I find someone (someday WAY far in the future), I'm an adulterer? or am I missing something somewhere?

Actually, a more correct translation is "marital unfaithfulness."

That is one of the reasons why a believing spouse is told by God to REMAIN married to an unbelieving spouse IF the unbelieving spouse DOES fulfill his/her maritial roles that God has assigned, AS IF he was a believer.

But if the unbelieving spouse chooses to leave, Paul has made it clear that the believing spouse should "let them go."

While "marital unfaithfulness" is most commonly associated with sexual sin, it is not the only form of unfaithfulness. However, between two BELIEVERS, Christ was clear (and you cannot "parse" or "read into" the text that it only applied to MEN) that "marital unfaithfulness" was grounds to end a marriage.

Between a believer and an unbeliever, the same is binding upon the believer.

While it is true that God hates all divorce, it is equally true that God hates "infidelity" in marriage just as much.

Please rememeber that God is a God of Peace and will not "require" you remain in a marriage that does not bring Him honor and glory.

God bless.

I think FH's post bears repeating. I'm a Christian, but I believe the Bible is open to interpretation, so I'm not necessarily the best to advise WaterOak. I have always thought that Matthew meant "marital unfaithfulness," and I would have argued that, but for the fact that KJB says "adultery." Now, if a person wants to take it so literally as to mean solely sexual infidelity, than I posit it is an equally valid arguement to point out that it says Men divorcing Wives. However, I believe that would indeed be following the letter but not the spirit.

And, WaterOak, just in case you miss the MOST important part of FH's post: Please rememeber that God is a God of Peace and will not "require" you remain in a marriage that does not bring Him honor and glory.

Do us a favor and please don't use MB to try and convert me. I'm Catholic and you're not going to change that by breaking out your 'scripture only' theology.

I was kind enough to answer the poster with what my religion teaches why don't you just do the same with yours and leave what I believe alone?

I agree that both of you should leave each other alone. Period. There is no reason iam for you to think he is trying to convert you. I saw nowhere mentioned that he thought "YOU" should live your life any other way.
However, WaterOak is not Catholic from what I gather in her writing - so at the same time - if you take what was said as trying to "convert", then your statement to WO could be seen at the same.
If I see anymore of all of this going on between the two of you I will report it. I didin't come here to hear religious bickering between two different faiths.

With all due respect, iam, she spoke about her PASTOR, not her Priest.

You interjected RCC dogma, not I, as if RCC doctrine made anything less than annulment somehow "substandard." I merely responded to her that what you were "offering" for consideration was NOT in the Bible and IS RCC tradition only.

But I understand your aversion to "Scripture Only," as that is a problem with the Roman Catholic Church and many of it's traditions and dogmas.

What the Bible says is that "all Scripture is God-breathed (inspired)...." It does not say that the RCC traditions are inspired, or necessarily correct, anymore than Jesus thought all of the Jewish laws and traditions (formulated by men) were correct.

If you really want to get into that sort of discussion or argument, let me know and we can move it to its own thread.

If you don't want to, then please stop trying to falsely accuse me of trying to "convert" you, or "convert" anyone else for that matter. But I WILL stand on Scripture and ask you to support YOUR "opposing" position with God's Word if that is what you want to argue.

I agree.



Then kindly restrict yourself to you own threads and don't try to censor what other adults may be discussing or arguing.

For the record, iam went after me accusing me of trying to "convert" her, manufacturing that argument out of whole cloth.

I, for one, will not let you or anyone else "dictate" what I can and cannot write about, especially on a thread that is not "yours." I would be more than willing to NOT post on one of your threads if that was your wish.

But I DO reserve the right to RESPOND to anyone, especially someone who goes out of their way to attack me.

Hello Ladies and Gents:

Just a friendly reminder to keep this discussion respectful.

The Harleys thank you.

No comment beyond, I hear you, we'll see about others.

ForeverHers thanks you.

I hope I don't interfere with this original post, but I think my problem follows down a similar path and might get a response on this post.

I'm looking at being divorced by a religious person. I'm concerned that my spouse has come up with their own terms that this may be OK with GOD. The problems we have are complex, but do not have to do with adultery. I do not think my spouse has talked with the pastor.

How should I bring up this concern with my spouse without appearing that I'm throwing it in their face? A support person of mine said that if this is importtant to me in my heart then I had best tackle this myself with my spouse.

Thanks

You just can't stop yourself can you?

BTW, priests can be called pastors.

I made it abundantly clear that I was relaying information from a catholic perspective (the only one I know). The OP was free to dismiss it completely or ask me for further clarification. You are being disingenuious when you claim I made "anything less than annullment substandard'. Can you show me where I wrote that? I'm waiting....

I have no desire to argue with you or even talk with you.

I really don't have any advice on how to broach or approach the subject with your spouse.

But I do hear you about how some seem to "speak for God" in order to justify their choices.

My former wife, who I believed to be a born again believer chose to have an affair and later justified it by saying that we should have never married, God wanted her to be happy, etc.

So when I read folks making similar arguments, saying everything from not getting romantic gestures from a spouse is emotional abuse or emotional infidelity, to saying that their marriage was a mistake, etc, most of it looks indistinguishable from the fog babble I've seen here, not to mention personally witnessed.

The word that some are translating to mean marital unfaithfulness is PORNEA, the word from which we get our word pornography.

Clearly, Jesus is not talking about just any marital unfaithfulness, but sexual misbehavior. So I don't think anyone looking at the original language would say that pornea includes anything other than sexual misbehavior.

Many try to widen the scripture to say that abuse is grounds for divorce, or addiction, or marrying the wrong person, or whatever they want to fill in.

You can search for a denomination that matches what you want scripture to read, or you can look at what Jesus clearly says, that it is NOT God's plan for folks to divorce.

So instead of looking for validation to divorce, why not try to do what God calls for us to do.

I write this as one who was ultimately divorced, and I was emotionally as well as physically faithful, no beating nor cheating on my part.

I get to be a every other weekend dad because someone decided that she knew better than God about what He meant when he said He hates divorce, or He hates the putting away of a spouse, or however you want to translate that.

I believe divorce is forgivable, and I think an 'innocent spouse' one who didn't seek divorce, but was divorced against his/her will is free to remarry if the other spouse sinned against God and the family by choosing to divorce for any reason other than sexual misconduct.

It's a hard teaching for some, as many know they didn't have Biblical grounds to choose divorce. Yet the truth is God didn't intend for folks to divorce, but to come close one to another by working through their differences, not separating and divorcing because they were different, or flawed, or how ever you see your spouse or former spouse.

ditto.

Then why did you start it?

Nevermind, I think I already know the answer to that question.

I'll say what I choose to say and the Mods will decide if it needs editing. What makes you think you have that job?

Hi Enlightened !

Thank you for this post -- I think it was well said. I do have two follow up Biblical questions: Have you forgiven your spouse? If she at some point desired to get back together with you, would you feel a responsibility to pursue reconciliation?

I know those a very personal questions and I would understand if you do not want to answer. I ask them because of some conversations with Christian divorced folks and they would refuse reconcilation. It is just another dimension of this topic that is interesting as well as difficult from a Christian perspective.

Thanks!
MMM

Ya, I think we've all heard that sort of "justification" for willfully disobeying God...."God didn't REALLY mean what He said," beginning with Eve and continuing today.



It IS Fog Babble, wrapped up and codified in "irreconcilable differences." Translation = for any reason you can come up with, just like the Jews of Jesus' day had.



Here's a little discussion of "pornea" that might be worthy of a little exploration.



"This is a hotly debated verse for two reasons: 1. it is the only place Jesus allows for remarriage in all the gospels and 2. the word translated immorality is literally "pornea" which is either fornication before marriage or any type of sexual immorality during marriage including adultery. "Mochea" means adultery and it would have settled the issue quick but our Lord used a word which the writers translated into pornea and the debate continues."




There are those who also believe that NO divorced spouse should remarry as long as the divorced spouse is still alive.

But I think you touched on the salient point in your first sentence in this quotation. It's all about "Forgiveness" and what sins CAN be forgiven and what sins cannot be forgiven. It is about the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice for sins of all types. Hence the clear teaching, "...and such were some of you."

Food for thought.

I'm sure that Enlightened will give you his response, but here's MY thoughts on your general question.

We are REQUIRED to forgive a repentant sinner.

We are NOT required to continue living with them or having a relationship with them.

The "choice" was given to the Faithful Spouse by Jesus while explaining the intent of God for marriage as it was from the beginning.

I have offered forgiveness. I personally do not believe forgiveness can be unilaterally given. I.E. Christ offers forgiveness, but forgiveness is not complete until the offer is accepted.

So I am willing to forgive, but believe the model set out in scripture is that the party who has sinned against and/or injured the other must seek forgiveness.

One cannot give forgiveness to another who will not accept it. So all I can do is offer. As long as the offer is refused, I've done all I can do.

On your second question, I'd think my wife would be upset if I reconciled romantically with my ex-wife.

From the research I did, I don't believe we can divorce for our own reasons. However, I do believe the innocent spouse is not bound if the unfaithful spouse seeks and is granted a divorce.

We are told not to hold the unbeliever against her will and we are told that if one will not leave their sin we are to treat them as an unbeliever.

We are told not to divorce the unbeliever, so it's pretty clear that Christians are to rarely if ever choose divorce. But if the one who is an actual unbeliever, or is to be treated as an unbeliever based on Matthew 18 wants out, we are to let them out.

I think we are no longer bound as one, as we are in obedience to let them out if THEY choose to divorce.

Being divorce is not necessarily a sin. However, in most cases, the one choosing to divorce is choosing to sin.

The keyword here is REPENTANT. God offers forgiveness, but it's only offered to those willing to repent.

I believe we are to be WILLING to forgive anyone willing to repent. However, I do not believe we are to just pronounce forgiveness upon folks.

I don't believe there is any case where forgiveness is a unilateral action in scripture. God sent prophets to have the people confess their sins, turn from their ways and He promised to forgive.

Forgiveness appears to ALWAYS be conditional on repentance.

I tell my kids, I don't want to hear they are sorry, over and over again. Instead, I want to experience their sorry in how they live, by NOT doing what they know to be wrong, over and over again.

That's repentance, turning from the sin. Not just saying sorry I got caught.

I think most folks fall into the sorry I got caught school, and then return to doing the same things over and over again.

Is that real remorse, real repentance?

I don't know.

I do know that it's not my place to judge. I think that is why Jesus said in Matthew 18:22 his words on 70 times 7 with regards to forgiveness.

Only He can judge if remorse and repentance is real. It is not our place to judge.

I do believe we can choose not to put ourselves in a place where we are hurt 70 times 7 times. We can seek shelter until they are able to provide emotional, spiritual or physical safety.

But we are to be willing to forgive. I really believe that is what God calls us to do. To be willing to forgive when that person seeks forgiveness.

Enlightened - I agree with your thoughts on the issue of forgiveness.

But let me also "warn" you that this subject has come up many times over the years and there are a lot of people who ascribe to the idea that "forgiveness is the gift you give yourself."

I have 'argued' in the past that there are different types of "forgiveness," similar to there are different types of "love."

The limitation of the English language is that such words often need "modifiers" in order to more clearly establish what "sort" of "forgiveness" or "love" is being spoken about.

I would posit that your "willingness to forgive" example is just that, "one form of forgiveness." It is, in effect, the "turning over of the forgiveness of sin" to God, where it rightly belongs. It entails "releasing" the "vengeance," the "hatred," the need to exact some sort of punishment by yourself.

In THAT sense, that "type" of forgiveness is being obedient to God in that "vengeance is mine, saith the Lord." If it is the Lord's will, even the biggest sinner can come to know Christ, at which point they would seek your forgiveness due to the conviction of their heart. THAT would be when it would be, in my humble opinion, appropriate to "forgive the sinner himself/herself the sin against you" as an act of obedience on your part TO God.

As Christ said, if someone sins against you and comes to you and repents of that sin, you are to forgive them. It would seem that here, again, a "modifier" would be helpful as to just what "repents" means to someone who is using that term and what it meanst to God, as described in the Scripture. "I'm sorry," for example, can be said to be a 'type' of repentance, but is it sorrow for having been caught, sorrow for pain inflicted, or is it truly an acknowledgment to God of their sin and a turning away from that sin? I personally believe that when Jesus referenced the 70 times 7 times He was acknowledging the pervasive pull of sin and the "problem" the once one "crosses over the line" they have a "weakness" that the same sin can exploit. The bottom line is that God "provides a way out," but the underlying assumption is that the person needs to in a relationship WITH God and walking TOWARD God in order for God's "provision" to be "seen" by them, let alone accepted by them DESPITE the "pull in the other direction" that would have the person walk AWAY from God.

Good points, Enlightened!