I do not believe in a blanket statement that all OP are selfish by definition. What about the case where an OP is truly unaware that there is a M to begin with? Is that OP selfish???

Melody,
I saw your comment on Captain's thread. I decided to respond here so as not to distract from his thread. You wrote:

"twe, any women who will screw a married man is by, definition, selfish and thoughtless. Vibrissa is absolutely right. Interfering in a child's family in such a grievous, disgusting manner speaks volumes about the OW. The OW throws the COM under the bus by crawling into the pig pen with her married father. You can put lipstick on that pig, but you still have a pig."

I guess you are calling me a pig -?

I have done things in the past that I am not proud of. However, I am grateful to have this little angel in my life. I make no apology for raising her. tew

Sorry, but screwing someone else's husband is profoundly selfish. And very thoughtless of his children. It is a fair characterization.



How else would you define adultery? I agree it is insulting to pigs for the insulting comparison, but I can think of no better way to define adulterers.


I shudder to think what that child has been taught about adultery. Has she been trained to believe it is ok to behave like a skank with married men? The most critical part of raising a child is teaching her right from wrong. That can't very well take place in the context of immorality. Teaching children that wrong is right is a form of child abuse that causes moral confusion.

ML,
Wow!!! So even when the OP has no idea the WS is married, they are still selfish. Interesting.

No need to worry about what she has been taught. She is doing just fine. She is 9-years-old now. She is a bright, well adjusted 4th grader. She makes the honor roll, is in the Girl Scouts & the Awana club, and plays soccer:)

I "shudder to think" where she would have ended up without me as it is quite obvious that neither one of her parents give a [censored] about her! And I am the one that is selfish.

I view that comment as little more than an attempt to divert the subject. Rarely do women not know when a man is married. And if they don't know at first, they find out soon enough, don't they?


None of which amounts to a hill of beans if she has been raised in a morally corrupt environment with adults who are corrupt. All the soccer and Girl Scouts in the world will not compensate for immoral role modeling.


You didn't exactly "give a [censored]" when you were doing her father and seeking to break up her family. The high horse does not fit you well. Frankly, an OW is not in any position to be sanctimonious about anything, especially when she played a part in the breakup of the marriage and the little girls family.

Melody,
I was not attempting to "divert" the subject at all. I was merely asking whether you considered an OP selfish if he or she is or was unaware of the WS's M. I will concede that usually an OP is aware of the M.

FYI, I never intended to break up her family. In fact, MM had left. I was the one that encouraged him to go back as soon as BS informed about her pregnancy. I also was no longer engaging in a R w/ him anymore, except friendship - which I will also concede, according to MB's standards, was at least an EA. I will admit that when he left for good I played a part in making sure he had his rights in place (50/50) as a father.

Keep in mind that this was over 8 + years ago. I have very different views now then I did then. However, I will not take ownership of the fact that neither one of them turned out to be decent parents. That is and was their choice. I believe it is selfish to turn your back on your flesh and blood.

Nor am I on a high horse. I just state the facts. She has had a place in my heart from the very first time I kept her overnight. Her father was at work and she had gas on her tummy. I was up all night with her. If I had to do my life over, I admit that there are many choices I may have done differently. However, taking her into my heart and home will never be one of them.

I suppose I will just agree to disagree with you:) Although due to my recent surgery the medicine I am on makes it hard to be disgreeable at all. It also makes it hard to sleep:( Best wishes!

twe, I would think carefully about defending the indefensible on a marriage board. There is absolutely no excuse for being a homewrecker. There is no "agree to disagree;" there is right and there is wrong. There is truth and there is false. There is no excuse for having an affair with a married man and helping break up his marriage and destroying his childs family.

For you to take credit for her upbringing after you played a part in the break up of her family is sickening. That is like the arsonist taking credit for putting out the burning building that he just lit with a match.

The fact that you are on this site defending the indefensible and crowing about what a good OW you are is, frankly, astonishing.

This is not a place where you can celebrate the corruption of a little child and expect to get credit for it. You are clearly on the wrong board for that.

What business does an OW have on a website that promotes marriage?

Sad part is she still to this day comprehend the destruction she wrought on this child's family.

I guess as long as she's a good mother negates the facts of adultery and her behavior.

I am moving my response to you over here to not continue a thread jack:



And yet, you harmed her grievously first. You played a part in the destruction of the ONE thing a child needs above all else: a safe and secure family and home.

You may make yourself feel better by caring for her now, her parents may have been basketcases BEFORE you came along but the fact remains that you didn't think to yourself "This child needs so much more than her parents are providing, I will sleep with her father and throw fuel onto the fire of the destruction of his marriage so that I can take care of the poor girl."

You felt it ok to sleep with a married man. At that time you thought of yourself and your desire for a relationship. You didn't care that you were, in essence, furthering the destruction of this poor girl's life. You DID throw her under the bus. It is admirable that you are caring for her now, but the fact remains that you have not always acted in her best interest and there was no guarantee that you WOULD act in her best interest as when this relationship started you were ONLY acting in your best interest at the EXPENSE of what this girl needed most: her family.

ETA: I also see that your married man is now your EX husband. The fact that he was untrustworthy enough to sleep with you while married didn't tip you off that he wasn't marriage material? And so you decided to marry him, setting this poor girl up for a second misery: the destruction of a second family after she'd tried to adjust.

Now she may be better off for having you in her life NOW, but you have harmed her just as much as you help her. And you could use the excuse that if it wasn't you, it would have been someone else. That is probably true, but it was YOU and that does matter.

__________

Also want to add: no, if you didn't know AT THE TIME the relationship started that he was a married man, of course you weren't selfish. Your selfishness kicked in when YOU FOUND OUT. Because, of course, you found out.

You may try to console yourself that you were 'just friends' after that, but we both know that wasn't the case. There was still an emotional connection that persisted, and continued contact contributed to the further destruction of the original marriage.

A woman of integrity and character would have been disgusted at the revelation of his married status, dumped him and removed him from her life, realizing him to be the morally deficient person he was and realizing that you shouldn't have those people in your life if you want to remain a woman of integrity and character.

You selfishly decided to keep him in your life, despite knowing his poor moral character, because it was what was best for YOU, not what was best for this man, his family, or this child you love so much.

You may console yourself with the fact that you 'encouraged' him to fix his marriage, but we both know that was impossible as long as you were in the picture. Your words said one thing, but your actions another, and actions are what count. You kept yourself in his life. If you REALLY wanted the marriage to survive, you would have completely cut yourself off from him.

But you got something from him and you selfishly chose to keep him in your life.

Then, you compounded the selfishness by marrying him after his divorce. You KNEW he was not marriage material, you KNEW he was morally deficient. Yet you selfishly lied to yourself that somehow you were different and this relationship would work, because you wanted it to. You selfishly put YOUR desire for a relationship with him ahead of the needs of his daughter. You knew he wouldn't be a good husband because of his past, and yet you began a relationship with him, and setting this child up for a second failed family.

No, you weren't selfish when you started seeing him - you didn't know better. But all the major decisions you made regarding this relationship AFTER you knew, have been selfish and in YOUR OWN best interest, not this little girl's.

Now I'm not saying you are a horrible or bad person. I'm saying you were a selfish destructive person then. You don't have to be that person, in fact you say you have grown since then. Part of growth is accepting the terrible things we did in our youth, understanding WHY we did them, accepting that they ARE terrible and ensuring those behaviors don't happen again.

And I'd encourage you to read Between Two Worlds: the inner lives of Children and Divorce. The children of broken homes are frequently GREAT liars. They are adept at portraying an 'all is fine, I'm healthy and happy" surface to reassure the adults in their lives, but the scars of divorce run deep and the pain shapes them throughout their lives.

I should know, my parents divorced when I was two over my mother's infidelity. My father's second marriage ended while I was a teen also over infidelity. I've gone to college, gotten a masters degree, have a home and happy family, a strong marriage of 5 years and a beautiful daughter. From the outside one would say I'm just fine. But I carry the scars of my shattered childhood burned deep onto my soul. I still feel the pain of those events, and I probably always will - though I have overcome them.

twejtm or whatever your name is, please stop trolling on a Marriage Building site. Just go post on The Other Woman board where women who intrude on and destroy families can help you feel good about that.

It's not going to happen here. And I'm putting you on "ignore" so I don't have to see any more of your selfishness and stupidity here.

My wish for you is that you marry a man you love and then find out he's doing some skank on the side who was stupid enough to believe his lies. But you won't mind, right? I mean, you would NEVER get upset about that like the rest of us did. You would just want your husband to be happy.

You're not selfish and judgmental like we are. Right?

Do you mean to tell me these women are unaware that these men are not their husbands?

Because even if they don't know HIS marital status, I'm pretty sure they would know if he's their husband or not.

Now you might argue that their personal moral code doesn't mandate no sex before marriage.

OK, but then that would just prove that they are selfish. After all, if they decide that they know better than God, or that there is no God so they can make up their own rules, well then that would make them pretty selfish.

Well, are you not the one looking for validation? You want someone to tell you good job.

Isn't that selfish?

So what do you own?

There is a question many ask BETRAYED spouses. Has your spouse become a better or worse person for knowing you.

The same question is valid here. Did either your affair partner, or his betrayed wife become better people for knowing you?

My guess is no.

So the question is, what was your contribution to their downfall?

Some may say my values are old fashioned. Yet it seems life is a lot better with those sorts of values.

Love God.
Don't sleep with anyone who is not your spouse.
Love your spouse.
Work hard.
Be generous.
Treat others better than you treat yourself.
Spend less than you make.
Don't expect others to take care of you.

Seems we as a society have gotten away from these values. Now it's about "me."

Look at me. Look at my good works. Look at my brains. Look at my boobs, or whatever.

It's about about me, me, me today.

The fact that you are here seeking validation only proves my point. You are more about yourself than you are about the damage you've done to others.

I don't see you writing saying that what you did was horrific, how abusive it was to his wife or child.

Why not set a real standard and instead of as you put it, waiting until he left for good, saying you will have nothing to do with a man who refuses to honor his vows.

Why not set a real standard and say if he can't honor his vows, then why would he even consider himself a fit parent?

Yes.

selfish
adjective
(of a person, action, or motive)
lacking consideration for others;
concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure

unselfish
adjective
willing to put the needs or wishes of others before one's own

Who cares what you believe? Lots of people used to believe that the world was flat. Didn't make it true.

Yes, the OP is ALWAYS selfish. And this is coming from someone who used to be one.

Vibrissa,

"And yet, you harmed her grievously first. You played a part in the destruction of the ONE thing a child needs above all else: a safe and secure family and home."

I will admit I played a part in the destruction of their M. Knowing what I now know about XH I can be reasonably sure he would have never took the initiative to leave a M, no matter what.

"You may make yourself feel better by caring for her now, her parents may have been basketcases BEFORE you came along but the fact remains that you didn't think to yourself "This child needs so much more than her parents are providing, I will sleep with her father and throw fuel onto the fire of the destruction of his marriage so that I can take care of the poor girl.""

I do not make myself feel better by caring for her. I care for her beacuase I love her, PERIOD.

At the time of the EMR I was SELFISH! No doubt. I also did not respect the institution of marriage. I HAVE changed my opinions considerably since then. There are a lot of decisions that I made that I wish I could change. However, I can't. All I can do is learn from them, move on, and make better decisions in the future.

"You felt it ok to sleep with a married man. At that time you thought of yourself and your desire for a relationship. You didn't care that you were, in essence, furthering the destruction of this poor girl's life."

I AGREE.

"You DID throw her under the bus. It is admirable that you are caring for her now, but the fact remains that you have not always acted in her best interest and there was no guarantee that you WOULD act in her best interest as when this relationship started you were ONLY acting in your best interest at the EXPENSE of what this girl needed most: her family."

This is what I struggle with. I do not care for her to atone for any wrong I have done in the past. I care for her b/c I love her. It is that simple. If you were to meet her, you would fall in love with her as well.

"ETA: I also see that your married man is now your EX husband. The fact that he was untrustworthy enough to sleep with you while married didn't tip you off that he wasn't marriage material? And so you decided to marry him, setting this poor girl up for a second misery: the destruction of a second family after she'd tried to adjust."

I SHOULD never have married him. AGREED. He was not marriage material. He had no interest in putting in the work it requires to be a good H or a decent father.

"Now she may be better off for having you in her life NOW, but you have harmed her just as much as you help her. And you could use the excuse that if it wasn't you, it would have been someone else. That is probably true, but it was YOU and that does matter."

I will agree with that also.
__________

"Also want to add: no, if you didn't know AT THE TIME the relationship started that he was a married man, of course you weren't selfish."

Thank you. I agree.

"Your selfishness kicked in when YOU FOUND OUT. Because, of course, you found out."

Again, I agree.

"You may try to console yourself that you were 'just friends' after that, but we both know that wasn't the case. There was still an emotional connection that persisted, and continued contact contributed to the further destruction of the original marriage."

I completely agree with the above.

"A woman of integrity and character would have been disgusted at the revelation of his married status, dumped him and removed him from her life, realizing him to be the morally deficient person he was and realizing that you shouldn't have those people in your life if you want to remain a woman of integrity and character."

Agree again.

"You selfishly decided to keep him in your life, despite knowing his poor moral character, because it was what was best for YOU, not what was best for this man, his family, or this child you love so much."

Agree.

"You may console yourself with the fact that you 'encouraged' him to fix his marriage, but we both know that was impossible as long as you were in the picture. Your words said one thing, but your actions another, and actions are what count. You kept yourself in his life. If you REALLY wanted the marriage to survive, you would have completely cut yourself off from him."

I agree. I should have stuck w/ the NC I began.

"But you got something from him and you selfishly chose to keep him in your life."

Yep, at the time I was reading from the OP script. No doubt.

"Then, you compounded the selfishness by marrying him after his divorce. You KNEW he was not marriage material, you KNEW he was morally deficient. Yet you selfishly lied to yourself that somehow you were different and this relationship would work, because you wanted it to. You selfishly put YOUR desire for a relationship with him ahead of the needs of his daughter. You knew he wouldn't be a good husband because of his past, and yet you began a relationship with him, and setting this child up for a second failed family."

Again I do agree with you. I wish I had a time machine. I wish I never married him. True. I can not change my past decisions though. I will say that I will NEVER make decisions like that again. Even if I were single today, I would run in the other direction if I learned a guy that was trying to go out w/ me was M. PERIOD, END OF STORY.

"Now I'm not saying you are a horrible or bad person. I'm saying you were a selfish destructive person then. You don't have to be that person, in fact you say you have grown since then. Part of growth is accepting the terrible things we did in our youth, understanding WHY we did them, accepting that they ARE terrible and ensuring those behaviors don't happen again."

Thank you and I agree. I have changed. I am living a moral life and it is amazingly simple to do so. Yes there is stress, but there is no drama or deception. It is very liberating. I am in a great M. We are going on 5 years in Feb. My H is a very loving, moral, and honorable man. He has taken on XHDD as his own. I did have DD go to counseling a few years back as I thought she may suffer due to lack of bio parents in her life. I will go to Amazon and order Between Two Worlds. I am an avid reader. I want to do all I can to ensure that she grows up to be a secure, balanced, and happy child.

I should know, my parents divorced when I was two over my mother's infidelity. My father's second marriage ended while I was a teen also over infidelity. I've gone to college, gotten a masters degree, have a home and happy family, a strong marriage of 5 years and a beautiful daughter. From the outside one would say I'm just fine. But I carry the scars of my shattered childhood burned deep onto my soul. I still feel the pain of those events, and I probably always will - though I have overcome them.

(((((Vibrissa)))))

I think you have to deliver the same message to your child. Be clear, that you are happy to have your child. Yet you made some serious mistakes that unfortunately, the child has to pay for.

Just as you say, you carry the scars from your shattered childhood, your child too will carry similar scars, regardless how many times you tell us (or your child) that you are a loving mother.

I don't say that to tear you down. I say it in hopes that you'll deliver the message that the path you took should not be repeated.

Teaching your child that while you may be a great mom now, how you got there was a painful path and that your child should avoid the same path, choose carefully, have sex with their spouse and ONLY their spouse. Not with friends, no hookups, etc.

That way, if they are having sex with their spouse and only with their spouse, they won't be breaking up a marriage, they won't be worried about having a child out of wedlock, etc.

And they'll avoid passing on the scars that you carry and that you likely passed on to your child by having a child with the affair partner.

Then it seems we are in agreement, tew. AT THE TIME you were the OW you WERE selfish. ALL affairees are selfish. It is the only way they can justify their actions to themselves.

But does that mean you will ALWAYS be selfish, that you will ALWAYS be wayward? That you will forever be condemned and vilified because of who you WERE?

No.

Because people can change. People can grow. People can overcome the mistakes of the past, they can stop being who they were and become someone better.

Are you selfish now? No.
Were you then? It seems we agree that you were.

AT THE TIME you were NOT a good person for this little girl's life, and a betting man would (for the safety of the child) have removed the girl from your life, because there are no garantees that a selfish person WILL change, though they CAN. To speak to Captian's situation, which spurred this conversation, yes it is possible that his OW can BECOME a better person, there is a Wayward woman who is working through her personal recovery on SAA. So it IS possible. But I would NEVER advise someone to take that risk with their children.

If you could go back and advise your EX MM having NO CLUE that you would become the woman you are now, would you have him risk his child's happiness on the mere POSSIBILITY (and a slim one at that) that you would change? If you truly love her like you say you do, there is no way you could say yes.

That is a MASSIVE risk for someone to take, not just with their lives, but with the lives of innocents.

It seems you are NOW a good influence on the life of this child, when she is bereft of others. But there is no guarantee that it was going to turn out this way.

tew...

Please stop saying "at the time of the EMR" - Rephrase to "at the time of the ADULTERY" - Calling it what it really was will perhaps help YOU to see exactly how vile what you engaged in was, which will hopefully help you talk openly with your daughter about what you did and how she must take extraordinary precautions to make sure she never walks down that same road...The cycle repeats until someone works to actively stop it...

Calling adultery an "emr" waters it down - plus it creeps me out as that is what it's called at the other site you post on - Do you still post there? I sure hope not - If you are serious about being a changed woman, I would pray that you now see that place for exactly what it is...*shudder*

Am I correct that your name here means something akin to "the ends will justify the means"? If so, I would hope you are considering a change if your intent is to continue post here...That phrase is offensive - you see that, right?

Mrs. W

tewjtm,

What made you post onto this site. I see in your tag line that you post in TOW as femalesargent.

What shifted you to come from there to here?

Wouldn't it prevent the whole problem if people just didn't sleep with people they weren't married to? You may not know if a person is married to someone else or not, but you almost always know if you are married to them or not.

What does "emr" stand for?

I believe it is Extra Marital Relationship

Tew - There are several people here that will NEVER see any "gray area" to anything. Some view everything as black/white and you will just not win some arguments.

I can tell you that the "OW" in my situation actually isn't a "skank" nor is she a homewrecker. There ARE situations where a home is "wrecked" WAAAYYYYYY before any "OP" enters into the picture.

My divorce (still pending...maybe will/won't happen) had absolutely NOTHING to do with the OW. And even though my STBX cheated on me too - I don't think the OM was the cause for our divorce either. I think he is a worthless POS, but that's just because he and I were friends for 20 years. THAT is a dif't story all together.

So - you are right that the OP is not always acting in a selfish manner. Keep in mind that many replies are from ex's that had a waywards spouse and were cheated on. Their opinions will certainly be skewed/bias based on their own experiences, and while much of that advice can be very valuable...much is just spewing of hate. It happens.

Captain: Every OP is acting in a selfish manner at the time they choose to sleep with someone else's spouse. The state of the marriage they are intruding upon is completely irrelevant. It is still wrong to sleep with another person's spouse. It just is, and there is nothing anyone can say to justify that. It doesn't matter if the marriage was going to end anyway. There is no gray area when it comes to Adultery. Even if the home is already "wrecked" as you say, entering into a new relationship before you are divorced is wrong. Plain and simple.

I am a FWS. The OM in my case claimed that his marriage had been "over" for some time before our A and that I had nothing to do with its dissolution, but that doesn't matter. Even if that were true (and who really knows) it doesn't make what I did any less wrong. It was wrong for me to sleep with a married man. It is always wrong to enter into any relationship with someone else's spouse.

The point is, from the OW/OMs perspective, you just don't know. My husband was abusive and I wasn't perfect, but was a good wife and we were committed and working on improving things. Had two wonderful kids and a very good sex life. I walked on eggshells around him and gave him loads of space as he required it. But it worked for us. This is NOT what he told the OW. The story was quite different. He told her our marriage was over, that I hadn't had sex with him in 5 years (HA!) and that I was an angry controlling shrew. Couldn't be farther from the truth. The crazy thing is that I've heard the exact same thing from married men I've been dating. I've also been told by men I was dating that they were separated, divorced and/or divorcing when it wasn't true. I didn't know it at the time, but because I didn't know THEM, I withheld intimacy until I was sure. If I didn't see enough of their lives to know for sure, I moved on quickly.

I sin and do enjoy sex outside of marriage. But only within a trusted, time tested relationship. (And a background check or two). Bottom line, men will lie to get in your pants sometimes. Women too I'm sure.

And, one last comment on that, if you don't do the work to make sure the man doesn't have a family on the side, you ARE selfish. Maybe not an awful person, but selfish for sure. Open your eyes and take care with the lives you are potentially messing with. No excuse for driving with your eyes closed either. You're culpable in that case too for the lives you are wrecking. If the OW in my case would have reached out to me just to check his story, or even just took a peak at my FB page, things could have been very different.

This is the same rationale that looters use when they feel entitled to steal from a store with an already broken window ...

The OP is a looter.

ITA...and the WS always claims the M is "wrecked"...Do you know of any that say "My marriage is goin great, will you sleep with me?".....and I truly believe that a M would have a chance, even if the WS claims its "over", if the OP did not enter the scene...once the OP is in the mix, yeah the M has little hope...

IF THE MARRIAGE IS OVER THEN WHY ARENT THEY DIVORCED! Call the BS an tell them.."Im gonna sleep with your Husband, is that okay with you?" Then you will find out if the M is "OVER".

Wrecked by the people IN the marriage.
It is never a smart idea to enter into an affair with a STILL MARRIED person, a person who has been a party to wrecking their own marriage.
A STILL MARRIED person who has a still terrible marriage, based on their own lack of skills, integrity, responsibility.

Not-yet-divorced dating is irresponsible behavior.

How about..."show me the divorce papers." if the M is over.

Capt - this is WAYWARD thinking.

Your OW IS a homewrecker.

Think about it. Your wife WANTED to reconcile at one point. But that didn't happen? Because you were too wrapped up in OW to fix your marriage.

If the OW REALLY cared about your wife and children, she would NOT have gotten involved with you, realizing that her involvement would PRECLUDE any possibility of salvaging your marriage.

Now, when you are ready to save your marriage, your wife has moved on. Who's fault is that? YOURS. Who helped you get to this point? OW.

If she had the sense to keep her legs closed and NOT sleep with a married man, you wouldn't have fogged out so much that you THREW AWAY the opportunity for reconciliation when it was offered to you.

She is a skank. Her relationship with YOU was more important to her than the chance at providing your children with a safe, happy home. She saw that you were in a bad marriage and TOOK ADVANTAGE of that situation to get what she wanted: YOU!

If she were a great person concerned with the stability and happiness of your children, she would have heard of your misery and directed you to get help and removed herself from ANY involvement with you. Instead she decided to 'help' and 'fix' you.

When I was a kid, I saw a little baby bunny separated from it's mother. I wanted to go to it and take care of it. It is in a woman's nature to nurture wounded creatures. My father stopped me, knowing if I touched the bunny it's mother would never accept it back, dooming the poor creature. If I had been selfish, like your OW, I would have run to the bunny anyways, because it would have made me feel good to care for the bunny. Instead, I left the bunny alone, knowing the BEST thing for it was it's mother.

Your OW went and touched the bunny KNOWING it was wrong and bad, and now your wife wont take you back.

I'd say she had a big part in the destruction of your marriage.


Until you see this for the lie it is, you will forever be stuck. Your OW had EVERYTHING to do with your inability to reclaim your marriage when the opportunity presented itself.


No, your selfishness is the cause of that. But the OM is the REASON your wife won't reconcile with you. He is the REASON she wont give you a chance to restore her family. She harbors the HOPE that things will work out with him.

If he weren't around, her maternal instinct would persuade her to give you another chance.

THAT is why I've encouraged you to expose OM, to make your wife distasteful to him. Dr. Harley has discovered, time and again, that when a WWs OM ditches her she often comes back to the father of her children.

You gonna trust the man who has saved thousands of marriages?

Or you gonna keep lying to yourself because it allows you to hold some good image of OW in your mind? (Which is STILL adultery btw)


You are wrong.

Flat out wrong.



No, it isn't hate - THEY are the victims here. If a woman is raped, but you know the rapist is a 'good guy' do you just tell her she's being hateful? And why is THEIR perception discounted? Because they're telling you something you don't want to hear?

Pretty bad reason to judge the truthfulness of a situation.

Affairs are emotional rape perpetrated on the betrayed spouse by BOTH affair partners.

I'm sorry Capt.

Your OW IS a skank, who only thought of HER needs when she started her relationship with you. Your marriage failed to recover because she didn't have the integrity to LEAVE your life when she saw the damage she'd caused.

Yes, Capt, what would your wife have said if the OW did this?

Marriage is TWO people, it takes BOTH of them, through a legal proceeding to declare a marriage OVER.

You don't get to say when marriage ends.

Because marriage isn't just about YOU, it's about YOU and your WIFE.

Oh, and Capt. I've never been cheated on. Not once. My husband is faithful. There is no Betrayed Spouse talking here.

I'm the child that grew up in the shattered fragments of adultery.

My Mom's OM IS a skank. I have no respect for him. He selfishly thought about what was best for his penis, instead of what was best for me.

But since I'm not the Adulterer, I guess I can't make a call. Only HE can determine if he's a good person, well him and my mom. Right? Not the victim that lived a broken childhood because of his selfishness?

Oops it wasn't selfishness, at least according to you, Capt... no he wanted the BEST for me.

Tew - There are several people here that will NEVER see any "gray area" to anything. Some view everything as black/white and you will just not win some arguments.

Winning an argument will not put any marriage back together.
That's why we're here on MB, right? To support and to build MARRIAGES, right?
We're not here to "win" arguments.
Pay attention to posters who have knowledge and understanding of the MARRIAGE BUILDERS program.
This is not an "argument-debate" site.
This is a MARRIAGE BUILDING site.



I can tell you that the "OW" in my situation actually isn't a "skank" nor is she a homewrecker.

I can tell you, that an OP is never a MARRIAGE BUILDER.
Why defend the OP?
Who cares anyway?
The OP is never a good source for information about how to successfully build a wonderful MARRIAGE.
The OP is a distraction and a deterrent to rebuilding after adultery.
Who gives a damn about the OP?



There ARE situations where a home is "wrecked" WAAAYYYYYY before any "OP" enters into the picture.

Like I said, a marriage which has been wrecked by incompetent/ignorant people who have not "clue one" how to build a strong and successful marriage.
Which is what we are here to learn, right?


My divorce (still pending...maybe will/won't happen) had absolutely NOTHING to do with the OW. And even though my STBX cheated on me too - I don't think the OM was the cause for our divorce either. I think he is a worthless POS, but that's just because he and I were friends for 20 years. THAT is a dif't story all together.

You, your wife, and all the various OPs .... none of you are any good, have any skills or knowledge at offering relationship/marriage advice.
Any smart, rationally thinking person would turn to someone better for advice.
The skills required to sustain a long lasting loving marriage are never found with an adultery partner.
Never.


So - you are right that the OP is not always acting in a selfish manner.

Any person who chooses to make himself/herself an adulterer, is always motivated by selfish desire. They are never motivated by MARRIAGE BUILDING knowledge. NEVER !



Keep in mind that many replies are from ex's that had a waywards spouse and were cheated on. Their opinions will certainly be skewed/bias based on their own experiences, and while much of that advice can be very valuable...much is just spewing of hate. It happens.

Keep in mind that this is a MARRIAGE BUILDING site.
Motivated by MARRIAGE BUILDING concepts.

Marriage building is not hate-spewing.
The OP and the adulterer are wrong.
Every time.
No exceptions.

It's not about winning an argument.
It is about supporting marriage.

I do not hate you.
I think your ideas are pathetic.
It is a terrible thing you do ... spewing pro-adultery on a MARRIAGE BUILDING support forum.

Shame on you for doing that !

The truth is very black and white. I am not surprised that you admit that your thinking is "gray" and fuzzy. Most waywards are very fogged out and this is reflected in many of your adultery promoting posts.


Nothing "wrecks" a marriage more than adultery. The solution to a bad marriage is not adultery, but to work to turn it around. Saying your marriage is "wrecked" does not justify adultery.

Any person who climbs into bed with a married person is a skank. They are defined by their actions.


You are mistaking "bias" for decency. Decent people HATE injustice. If you don't, then there is something wrong with your conscience. The fact that you are NOT speaks to your own bias and lack of conscience.

And of course you would be biased because you are an active adulterer. You have an emotional investment in defending and rationalizing adultery. Because you are an active adulterer, you would be about the LEAST objective person on this thread.

Please note that several FORMER adulterers have posted on this thread and they are as outraged as the BS's.

But since the home is not getting better due to the affair, the term is completely accurate. One is either a home wrecker, or a marriage advocate. You are right, there is no grey. Grey is what gets folks in trouble. It's those loopholes and whatnot that simply make the victims miserable, but help those who are doing the wrecking lie to themselves to justify their behavior.

That grey area really doesn't help their betrayed spouse. So why even go there?

This site is MARRIAGE BUILDERS, not affair justification. Anything one does that doesn't build a stronger marriage will not get a warm reception here.

To expect otherwise is to be deep in the fog and out of touch with reality.
But does any of that help build a stronger marriage? Of course not. If you don't come out of those events with a better marriage to your original spouse, then they are factors that lead to the ultimate destruction of the marriage.

No one is saying they are the ONLY factors. However, they are pretty major and only made things worse, not better.

Again, this site is MARRIAGE BUILDERS. Behaviors that are known to destroy marriages are discouraged.

Disagreement is never hate. Dissent is never hate. It is intellectually dishonest to call a different opinion hate. In fact, if some is suggesting you examine your thinking because they disagree and believe your line of thinking is destructive, it's the opposite of hate to warn you of the potential downside of your line of thinking.

So if I disagree, and I tell you why I disagree,that is NOT HATE. Hatred would be to remain silent and let you hurt yourself.

So to call those who disagree with you as spewing hate simply demonstrates that you are either still deep in a fog, or can't recognize when folks are trying to help you avoid a nasty, painful experience.

For me, it's like I see you driving off a cliff, so I'm warning you of the dangers of driving off that cliff.

Your response is that I'm "spewing hate" and you are saying, "look nothing bad has happened yet!"

Yet most know that when you hit the ground, it's going to hurt.

That my friend is not hate, but concern.

So you can try to fool yourself and tell us that we are being hateful. Or you can accept that we are not full of hate, but rather full of concern.

I've done my job, I've warned you. If you want to treat that good intentioned warning as hate, you are free to do so. However, you are most certainly wrong about it being hate.

Dissent is NEVER hate.

ITA.

What is the point of coming to a marriage-building site and trying to defend an OP? Where there are people (BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION) suffering the devastating effects of affairs and trying to rebuild their marriages??? I mean really???

IMO that act alone demonstrates the selfishness and thoughtlessness of the posters that do this here, the very thing you are trying to tell us you are not...

Guys/Gals - I DO see your point...really I do. I just HATE living in a world of "absolutes" and I understand you think my need for a "grey area" is me being in my "fog" and that's fine.

But - just so I understand let me play out this scenerio...
***disclaimer*** this is NOT "my situation" at all - completely made up purely to make a point that NOTHING is ever "black / white".

**here we go**
Married Woman meets a single man
Single Man does not know woman is married
They go out on a few dates (woman is cheating obviously)
Develop a close emotional connection - they do have sex eventually.
After a couple months the married woman admits (or gets caught) to cheating and single man is (obviously) pissed off and leaves married woman.
Couple months go by...married woman has divorced her husband (or husb div'd her) - and she sees the man she was previously dating. They decide to get together and date again. End up in a relationship.

Are you telling me that this OM is a selfish low-down home-wrecker or if the roles were reversed would she be a low-down skank? I think not.

Actually Captain, yes to your last question.

The thing is, there are ALWAYS signs that a person isn't being honest with you. No one has any business sleeping with someone they've only gone out with a few times and don't even know well enough to be able to tell that they're being dishonest. A married man/woman isn't going to invite you over to their house, or let you call their home phone number. They aren't going to introduce you to any of their friends or family. They are only going to be able to spend certain times with you (ie, when their spouse isn't around). If you don't know a person well enough to know enough about their lives to be able to tell whether or not they are married, then you have no business getting into bed with them.

Vibrissa,
Thank you for your kind words.

Enlightened,
I do believe I have raised all of my children (including DD of XH's M) to know and believe that adultry is wrong and unacceptable.

Mrs. W,
Yes, I do believe a name change is in order. That was my old name from several years ago. I was a very different person back then. However, if you check my old posts here @ MB you will see that I always posted respectfully & honest. I would not want my name to be a trigger. I also no longer believe that the ends will justify the means. Doing the right thing is more important.
How do I change my name so that my old posts are not lost?

Captain,
I posted to you on your thread. I believe it is not too late to save your marriage. I do believe you need to let OW go first, even if W is not ready to get rid of OM.

hope,
I have posted here before. I also lurk here a lot. I find I have more in common with the people here. I also like how people generally stick to 1 thread. I read Scotland's thread in 1 day (although it took forever). I admire her and all she did to protect her kids and save her marriage. I have been ill lately so I am at home 24/7 and have free time when kids are at school or late at night when I am in too much pain to sleep.

I believe I can help marriage build. I also believe I can offer a unique perspective on issues dealing w/ OP. I cringe when I read a story where I am almost positive there is still contact even though NC letter has been written. I wanted to climb through the screen and shake ppl sometime. I am not sure of the poster, but I was reading a thread the other day where H is out of house sleeping on OW's sofa, but W does not believe it is a PA. Amazing.

I do post on TOW sometimes, but not very often. I have been on the board 9+ years and followed certain posters stories. It is hard for me to post there now, because I am completely affair free. You are not allowed to post on OW/OM forum wearing your M hat, which I do proudly wear now:) I met my H at work. He was single when we got together. We have been married going on 5 years. He is a wonderful man who believes cheating is dead wrong. There is no grey area in his eyes. I am lucky that he accepted me, even knowing of my past. I also use MB's principles to try and ensure we have a mutually healthy and satisfying marriage.

markos,
Nice solution, but not going to work in the real world. Fornication has been around since biblical times and I am sure it will continue.

writer,
Believe it or not there are situations where OP does go to MP's home. Sometimes MP have jobs that require them to be elsewhere. Sometimes MP's family does not even let on. In the past I was w/ 2 MM and I had both of their home #s and was able to call whenever I needed to.

FYI to all @ MB,
I am not here to cause problems. I have posted here before and was never attacked or treated poorly. Nor would I do that to anyone. I hope everyone is able to recover their marriage. Marriage is a truly wonderful gift, especially whan it is a balanced, supportive, and happy relationship.

Thought that was a very nice summary.

Waywards always try to find loopholes to justify their actions. If it's ok in one scenario it may be ok in theirs.

In this situation that you describe, the man had no clue. But he unwittingly DID play a part in the destruction of the woman's marriage. He was a key player though he didn't know it. Ignorance does not make innocence, but it can factor in determining culpability.

It would just be better if he didn't have sex with a woman he wasn't married to. Problem solved. Don't have to worry about it.

If you're gonna make up wild scenarios, I'm gonna make up wild solutions.

But you're trying to distract me from the point. The point is YOUR OW IS a skank. Full stop.

Making up hypothetical doesn't make her any less a skank, especially because she DID know you were married.

Honestly, what was your purpose in bringing up your hypothetical? To educate me? Until you clear your foggy mind, you will not be in any sort of position to educate anyone.

tew - I appreciate your thoughts.

Don't have sex with someone you aren't married to. Problem solved.

Scenarios like the ones listed above are only a problem for people who are having sex without the benefit of being in a committed long-term relationship (read MARRIAGE here). It would be pretty difficult for your partner to successfully lie about their marital status if you waited to have sex with him/her until you were married to each other and living together.

So your point was? There are exceptions to the rule?

Waywards are famous for believing they are the exception to the rule. You need to defog, Captain. We can't help you while you are still in contact with your OW.

BTW, you need to update your signature line with the fact that you are a wayward spouse and still working with your OW. That way people/lurkers will understand and be able to "keep that in mind" when reading your fogbabble.

of course you hate living in a world of "absolutes;" all outlaws hate it because that is the world of right and wrong. You live in the world where wrong is right, a warped fun house that accommodates your wrongdoing. That world doesn't serve anyone expect outlaws.

Every outlaw runs from the world of black and white with every fiber of his being. You have to live in a world of "gray" in order to avoid looking honestly at yourself.

We all see right through you, Captain. WE SEE YOU. You can't run and hide here.

Under your scenario the OM is not necessarily a selfish, low-down home-wrecker, but at the very least he's stupid and irresponsible. What kind of person would get together with a woman that led him to believe she was single and committed adultery with him? A very stupid person with no self-worth.

Assuming single man is an adult and has normal mental faculties, single man knows this woman is not his wife.

So if single man chooses to adopt a moral code that allows sex before marriage, single man is acting selfishly by even allowing sex to occur with this woman, regardless her marital status.

Since he should be 100% certain of his marital status, should he choose to have sex with someone he knows is not his wife he's being selfish.

See above. This is one of the pitfalls of adopting the moral code of sex before marriage. One puts themselves at risk of being a party to such a situation.

There is a certain wisdom in the moral code of avoiding sex with anyone not your spouse. Which means single guys won't have sex.

One can argue, even without citing any religious texts, that choosing to avoid sex with those who are not your own spouse, one avoids such potential circumstances. That is the ultimate in thinking of others over yourself.

By adopting such a personal code, you make sure you are not unwittingly betraying the marriage of another should your partner turn out to be married and not single as she presents herself.

Well at this point, the guy isn't selfish, but unwise. He knows she is able to betray her spouse. Choosing to continue an intimate relationship with her puts him at risk of being betrayed down the road.

So I wouldn't say selfish. I'd say stupid at this point.

Yes, and stupid if it progresses along the scenario you present here.

No one told me how I can change my name w/out losing my old posts. Can someone please advise.

You just go into "my stuff" and go to "edit profile" and you can change your display name. You might want to remove the mention of "TOW" in your signature, because the board is so offensive.

ML,
Wouldn't that be dishonest on my part? I specifically put the TOW part on their so ppl could cross check my story for accuracy and the manner in which I post? I will take it off for now as per your suggestion.

I have been a member of TOW for 9 years and MB I believe for about 8.

Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Name has been changed. I tried happywife first, but someone else had that one:(

Another ? How do u get your info to show at bottom of your thread posts?

Thanks all:)

Instead of putting "TOW" in signature, why not put "FOW" so folks will know you have recovered by renouncing that shady, sleazy background?

I agree - FOW describes you now, stable and provides enough of a background for other people to know what perspective you're coming from.

Glad you got the name change. And it seems you figured out how to change your siggy.

Gerber - you may want to try posting your thread in a New Topic so it can be addressed specifically. Welcome to MB.

Vib,
As for the signature I meant how to add the facts. Like I see ppl that have their ages, kids ages, DDay info, etc. It shows up w/out doing any research.

Again, single man could avoid the whole problem by not selfishly choosing to sleep with this woman before marriage.

btw, Captain, original definition of a skank was a woman who sleeps around without marriage. By very definition, in your story (with genders reversed), the woman is in fact a skank.

Just wondering guys, what is TOW?

It stands for The Other Woman. It is a filthy, vile sewer where they celebrate the destruction of marriages and families. It is full of some of the most sick, warped people you will ever see. They are cockroaches at the table of life of some married woman. They snatch the crumbs of someone else's marriage.

So I guess we all managed to answer the question....

Couldn't a single woman avoid the problem by the same action...or lack there of?
And by answering my scenerio in this way I will understand that to mean you don't have the ability to actually pose an argument related to the scenerio I wrote?

Of course, it works either way. But this discussion is framed around the OP, who in your scenario is a man.

Not sleeping with someone you aren't married to IS an argument related to your scenario.

In fact it is the only solution to the problem.

But why are you getting caught up in a hypothetical scenario? This scenario has nothing to do with yours: in which you selfishly had an affair with a selfish skank and destroyed your marriage. And your wife who selfishly had her own affair.

All these problems would have been avoided if you only had sex with someone you were married to.

I had sex outside of marriage with my ex - it was selfish. Motivated purely by my desire to have my need for SF met without having to make the commitment of marriage that using the ability to procreate requires.

When I dated my husband we waited until our wedding night to have sex. Because we selflessly realized that until we said the words we weren't committed and were a child to be the result of our selfish inability to wait, the innocent child would suffer the consequences of that selfishness.

Why are you getting caught up in lawyering a hypothetical scenario? Is it really that hard to look at yourself and the skank you climbed into bed with?

Narcissists. Liars. Snakes. Cowards. Losers. I think OPs are a good deal more than just selfish.

I addressed your scenario, point by point, yet you've failed to respond to me as far as I can tell.

Why should folks keep answering if you are going to ignore and/or fail to acknowledge that folks have answered.

Your failure to accept the answers given in no way means no answers have been provided.

Answers have been provided and some who've provided answers have not been acknowledged.

I guess I'm at a loss as to understand what difference the gender makes. Man or woman, whenever you're pulling out your private parts to exchange bodily fluids with someone, if you'll check to see if you're actually married to someone, you'll completely avoid scenarios where you actually "unselfishly" sleep with someone who is married.

I gave a 100% foolproof way of avoiding the scenario you wrote. Your scenario absolutely depends on selfish behavior: sleeping with someone you're not married to.

I have (and continue to) acknowledge my selfish behavior and that of the OW I was with.

I am only replying with that scenerio because I absolutely loathe when people pretend EVERYTHING is black/white in every situation. For someone to call upon something to always be 100% absolute is foolish.

I'm not defending myself at all nor am I trying to lessen the selfishness of my actions in any way.

When it comes to sex outside of marriage it IS black/white.

Sex outside of marriage is selfish because you only think of yourself and your hormones, not the harm potentially caused to children that may be conceived.

Sex isn't just about you. And it isn't just about your partner. It is also about any potential children you create.

Sex isn't a right, it is a privileged and a responsibility. You are obligated to be responsible, because irresponsibility doesn't harm just you but innocents.

Thus it's as black and white as: are you married to the person you are about to have sex with? That is a yes or no type of question.

If the answer is no - then you are acting selfishly.
If the answer is yes - then you may not be acting selfishly (though it's still possible)

And I say this as someone who had sex outside of marriage and lived with my ex for 3 years, completely loved him and wanted to have a family with him some day.

I was selfish then. Thinking about my needs, my desire for a relationship with him, my hormones. I shudder to think what I would have done had a child resulted. I thank God every day an innocent didn't have to suffer for my selfishness.

Sleeping with someone else's spouse is always selfish, 100% of the time. This particular issue is about as black and white as they come.

Stop working with your OW, defog and then come back and see if it makes more sense.

hmmmm I am pretty certain that fools don't think clearly at all. They seem to be crippled with the gray, fuzzy thinking you described.

And I know you "loathe" black and white thinking. That is a byproduct of a wayward mind. I was once the same way. It is because the truth is black and white, and a wayward is on the run from the truth.

Right, people who say they disagree with you actually agree with you deep down inside, and are only pretending to see things a different way.

When people do this to you, have you ever considered addressing it as an honest difference of opinions?

I absolutely loathe when people pretend that ADULTERY is okay in any situation.

I love that you think you have me figured out. You don't though. I am NOT (and have not) defended adultery. I have no problem with disagreements. People have such a differing view of the world that it would be impossible to agree on everything.

This discussion has certainly taken a turn towards unproductive. I will not and have not defended adultery. All I have done was to defend my position against absolute black/white situations at ALL times.

This is the same line of thinking that would say killing another person is NEVER okay because the Bible says thou shalt not kill. Black and white = never okay to kill. Reality of the situation is there are several justifiable reasons (IMO) to take another man's life. But that's not what the Bible says.

Then someone needs to do a bit more study on religion. The commandment is actually Thou shall not murder. NOT Thou shall not kill.


Unlawful killing is what we in English would term Murder. VERY different scenario than killing.

Sometimes killing is necessary, in war, or in self defense.

It is NEVER ok to murder.

Maybe do a bit of research before you decide to get on your soap box and lecture people about morality.

Source

Thats not black and white thinking, that is the foggy thinking of an ignorant person who takes scripture out of context.

But I do appreciate your honesty when you say that you have "gray" thinking. I have noticed a fuzziness in your posts and applaud your honesty. I will take that into account when reading your posts.

Explain how this is NOT defending adultery. You are basically saying that adultery isn't a black/white issue, implying that, under certain circumstances, it is okay.

p.s. Moral relativists who complain that there are no "moral absolutes" always expect others to treat THEM with moral absolutes. They just don't want their own behavior to be judged with moral absolutes. They are phonies.

For example, I have never met a MR who didn't expect his banker to treat his money with moral absolutes. Every MR I know would howl to the moon if his banker confiscated his money and justified it by saying "don't be so black and white!!" Or if someone punched out a MR, would it be justifiable if the puncher said "don't be so black and white!!"

In other words, Captain, if there are no "moral absolutes" [a self refuting statement in the first place becuase it is a statement of absolute truth, which you have said does not exist] then you have no grounds to complain if your banker steals your money and if someone punches you out..

Not to mention that saying there are no moral absolutes is in fact a moral absolute. Therefore such a claim is a self-contradicting statement. However, a statement cannot be both true and false at the same time, breaking the logical law of non-contradiction.

Even that is your own subjective opinion; you might find it unproductive; others might find it productive.

Interestingly enough, despite the larger discussion here about moral absolutes, one of the best things Marriage Builders has done for me is teach me to be more respectful by not treating my own opinions as absolute truth so much. This has especially helped me in my relationship with my wife, but also in my relationships with other people.

So instead of saying that a discussion is unproductive, my preference would be to say "I'm not really getting a lot out of this discussion; what are yall getting out of it?" Or even to just exit the discussion entirely.

I may believe there are absolute truths. Yet there is room in my world for those who don't believe there are absolute truths.

MB is not about is their an absolute truth or not, but will I allow others to have a different view than mine and treat them with love and respect even if I don't agree.

That means that while I may not agree, I don't resort to name calling (yes I did say stupid, guilty!) or other verbal bullying techniques.

Now, if something doesn't add up, such as above when it was proposed there are no moral absolutes, which is a self-contradicting statement, I can call out the logical fallacy without being unloving or disrespectful.

Perhaps one can even say stupid without being disrespectful. Such as, "In most cases it's stupid to borrow money at 29.9% interest."

First I find it funny that you compare murdering someone to adultery...I can think of some justifiable reasons to kill someone, self defense etc...you know to save yours or your loved ones life when in eminant danger...

When is it necessary for you to have sex with someone who is not your spouse? Because you need some sex to save your own life? Youre gonna die if you dont get some?

Oh, I guess I forgot what my second point was...

Who in their right mind would enter into a relationship with a MM or MW? I'll tell you. Those who have issues, i.e. self-centeredness, no ability to set limits for themselves, no thought for the children in the marriage, those who stupidly believe the WMM/WMW. They are as selfish and thoughtless, in fact, narcissistic as you are.

OPs are probably trying to fix father/mother issues of emotional abandonment and feel that, if she/he could just get MM/MW to forsake all others, then one would feel whole again.

I don't even pity OPs. They do have my full distain, however, and rightly so. Go find a single man or woman. What's the problem with doing that.

Gerberdaisies

That would make too much sense; sense the OPs don't have.

I know karmasrose. What part of "he or she is not unavailable" does OP not understand?

GD

The "no/not" part.

They don't comprehend that word. <--- They do that until they get what they want.

Did you expect a welcome when you got here? I can only think that you motive is to piss on this forum like you'd like to piss on the MW. Talk about selfish...

GB

I just found out that OP is actually a separated wayward wife. She is married, as well as he is. She's twelve years younger than soon-to-be(?) divoring married man. Frikin' twisted. Does anyone believe in marriage anymore? I know there are people committed to marriage, but I think these two are selfish beyond comprehension. GB

Sometimes I think the only people that believe in marriage and commitment anymore are posting on this website....Sadly.

Yes, it is sad. We could be really great people but those who are not seem to hook up. Interesting dynamic. GB

In my case, the POSOM needed a place to live and place to park his horses. In fact, he was also a relative of my exWW's. So, if our marriage was "sooo bad" as my ex WW put it, wouldn't you think a RELATIVE would advise a MARRIED relative with KIDS to go to counseling and such to work on the marriage instead of trying bed the relative? Na, he needed a place to live and did not care about the damage wrecked on the children.

Yes a relative with MORALS would advise a married relative with kids to work on their M? You would think!!! But come to find out these OP have no morals or compassion for anyone else but themselves!!!!!!

You sound so much like an OW, I had to out you. I was happy to do that.

TOW is such an offensive website that I hope it crumbles soon. TOW and Marriage Builders for an equal amount of time? Are you kidding me? You must either be a con artist or have split personality disorder.

GB

gerber you wrote:

" just found out that OP is actually a separated wayward wife. She is married, as well as he is. She's twelve years younger than soon-to-be(?) divoring married man. Frikin' twisted. Does anyone believe in marriage anymore? I know there are people committed to marriage, but I think these two are selfish beyond comprehension. GB"

Who are u talking about, b/c that certainly not me? I have belonged to both boards though for a long period of time. However, if you look at my thread count for both boards I do not post all the time. In fact, I have gone about a year sometimes w/ no posts on either.

I don't have split personality. I joined TOW when my life was more in tuned w/ being the OW. I joined here about a year later as I noticed we had several MB posters that came to TOW to get OW perspective. That is how I learned of MB board. I had a few ?s at the time about dealing w/ BS, especially as I had her child at the time 50% of each week. I now find that most of the TOW threads do not interest me. I feel I have more in common here on MB as I am in a GREAT M and am trying to keep it that way.

I mean no harm. I have never hidden my identity. I never insult posters on either board. I just offer my opinion when I feel I can offer something productive.

Things sure change quickly in your life. OW hat firmly back in place again huh? Well...actually...I suppose it was never removed. Just covered up momentarily.

Darlin'...there's not a blessed thing "Stable"(atlast) about you. I will certainly pray for this child in your care...seems she never had a chance in this life. THAT'S the biggest shame in all of this. The kids brought into these situations who get skewed values & lessons in morality. Exactly why this society is on this huge down-slide & will continue unless people wake up & get HELP for their afflictions.

I'm so SICK of this fickle a$$ society...it's SICKENING.

But THIS is CRAZY!:

http://gloryb.com/forum/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=035757

That was written on Thursday, and by Monday you were back on the other site, gleefully reclaiming your ID as an OW! You have kicked out your H and taken up with your MM!

Yes. The OP is always selfish.

That poor child. There are many decent would-be adoptive parents who would love to have her and who would give her the childhood and family life that she deserves.

I guess its time for a name change for stableatlast....

and to think her BH decided to look past her past behavior and married her inspite of everything.... from what we were told.... AWESOME!!!! and i hope her BH has a clue as to what was really going on!

It is sad that there are those of us who respected and loved our spouses and would do anything to have them back....and others who think of their spouses as trash to be used when needed and tossed away when not.

The mask slipped.....

I just found her post on TOW.

That entire site makes me want to

Seriously, I almost lost my breakfast while I was reading that.

There was a time I was pretty far gone during my A, but even at my lowest I cannot imagine buying into the load of crap they promote on that site.

I need a shower and some Pepto Bismol.

4eva, you are a rock star!

She is!

4eva, we have a lot to thank you for.

Ahhh...you missed it...she HAS changed it. Now it's:

"itried"

I guess she came here last night or this morning, after I posted, and saw she was busted .


Yeah, reading that garbage tends to have that effect. It is shocking, the state of mind these people convince themselves to remain in. Utterly shocking.



Naw Faithy...you're the leader of MY band



Sugar Cane, you all have NOTHING to thank me for. I read & learn so much from you all that I could never repay it. I just happened to be up on this thread & got lucky just wandering over there when I did. I don't usually even go there...guess I was up for some sick entertainment (yeah...I was bored). I actually couldn't believe a (so-called) XOW-now a wife to another man-raising her XMM's child from his marriage-who (recently) OPENLY speaks about being a member "over there"-YET-"have more in common here on MB as I am in a GREAT M"-would contradict herself so quickly .

This chick has some SERIOUS issues she's drowning in. And SOMEBODY needs to get that child away from her or she'll be as screwy as "itried" . THAT situation is NOT GOOD.

And this thread topic is pretty laughable.

I mean...if ya gotta ask...ya pretty much got your answer.

She tried what? To be a decent human being?

Looks like she failed.

Hey, that would be a much better screen name for her here. How about it itried? Want to change that to ifailed?

I think the answer to the original question is an undebateable
YES!