I find myself in a custody battle after my wife had several affairs. The last one was exposed to my children (early teens, boy and girl) in age appropriate ways (innapropriate relationship, dating, etc.). Now that is being used against me with the custody evaluator as an example of me exposing the kids to adult issues. Anyone have experience fighting this battle?

How is it being used against you? You simply told the truth and tried to get others to help you.

Sbt,

Lying to your kids and keeping them in the dark is almost worse than losing custody. If the kids don't know the truth they blame themselves. Can you imagine telling you kids "we broke up because we had PROBLEMS"

God Bless
Gamma

Sbt, a corrupt wayward will use anything against her spouse, so just expect it. Here are some good quotes by Dr Bill Harley, a licensed clinical psychologist about lying to kids.

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

here



here

here

Wife is making it an issue with the custody evaluator. It's being positioned as a pattern of exposing the kids to "adult issues". i.e., a lack of healthy boundaries with the kids. I don't know how the evaluator views this. Although I'm guessing the evaluator may be in the camp of people who "strongly disagree" with Dr. Harley's view on this topic.

You might want to explain that many psychologists believe that lying to children about the source of tension in their home causes enormous moral confusion and often leads children to believe they are the source of the problem. It also teaches that lying is acceptable when they eventually find out about the affair. It is much better to hear about it from a parent, than via rumors at school. Adultery is not an "adult issue" since it affects the whole family. Simply put, it is irresponsible to lie to kids about what is happening to their family.

State your beliefs. (examples below)

I believe children should be told the truth and the facts affecting them and their family in an age-appropriate way.

If something or someone is disrupting a child's life, that child needs to be assured that he/she is not the cause.

If a child is given a truthful explanation, they can be appropriately comforted and protected.

I know lies are never the answer to problems and never provide long term protection. I want my children to learn that lying is not an appropriate response to a problem.

For example. If one parent had a serious and possibly terminal illness, the situation should be explained to children in age appropriate ways.

For example. If adultery is breaking the family apart, the situation should be explained to children in age appropriate ways.

I firmly believe I am responsible for the moral development of my children. I will teach them right from wrong."Mommy has a boyfriend.This is wrong. Married people are not supposed to date anyone outside the marriage." Or, "Daddy has a girlfriend.This is wrong. Married people are not supposed to date anyone outside the marriage."

I so agree with Pepperband's approach because rather than getting into competing professional advice, you are stating your own beliefs as a parent and taking ownership. That cannot be debated and disputed. After all, you are the only one here that has the children's best interest at heart. A wayward does not [as evidenced by her adultery and other destructive behavior] and the GAL does not. The GAL doesn't even know your kids, much less care about them. The GAL is not morally and legally responsible for your children and does not have to answer for bad parenting: YOU DO.

If you state your beliefs and even use Harley as a back up source, you will be fine.

When I got divorced, I was shocked to be told that I had to have my "parenting" reviewed by some unknown crapwit bureaucrat in the court system. Fortunately, my youngest was 17 so I was able to tell them to buzz off. I feel sorry for those of you with minor children.

Me refusing to move out of the house is being positioned against me also. When she filed she requested that I move out of the house. She said she needed space to figure things out. I said i would be happy to help her find a place to live and would even pay for it. She has asked two more times over the last year that I move out. I have refused. Now she is positioning with the custody evaluator that I didnt move out and asked her to move out knowing that this wasn't the best thing for the kids so obviously I don't have the best interest of the kids in mind.

I see the craziness in this I just dont know how custody evaluators see this kind of stuff.

Again, state your firm beliefs.

Example:

I believe children should not be exposed to adultery. Me leaving the marital home so my wife can carry on her adultery in the marital home is unacceptable. I will not send the message to my kids that adultery is OK.

Thanks. I'm going to post more in a day or so. I could really use some help. My wife filed for full custody and I fear that she is going to get that or at least majority custody. She has been a stay at home mom and is claiming among other things that I was an absentee father until she filed. She is claiming much more and is very convincing.

Does adultery count in your state?

Read this study and copy some of the more relevant pieces.
It's a very reliable source.

LINK to US Dept of Health and Human Services

One very useful section for you.


This article talks about the increased risk for abuse at the hands of the mother's boyfriend.

LINK to MSNBC

LINK to US Nat Library of Medicine

Link to a Catholic publication


State your firm opinion:
Example:

My greatest desire was for my wife to end her adulterous affair, return to the marriage and work with me to provide our children with a safe/loving/stable 2 parent home.

My wife chose her adultery partner over the best chance for our children to reside in a stable marriage.
I refuse to step aside and blindly trust my children to be raised by two adulterous adults.

No.

Sbt, good show on kids and adultery yesterday http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2592357#Post2592357

A divorcing wayward will sink to many depths to get the upper hand in a divorce. Of course, she's going to try to use exposure against you. She'll probably be lining up anything she can think of to use against you.

I've bolded part of your post up above. Can you explain what the 'pattern' is? I don't see a pattern of exposing your children to adult issues. Telling them the truth about their lives in an age-appropriate fashion is not a 'pattern' of anything except telling the truth.

A link, just in case you've never heard of paralell parenting .

(notable posts forum)

In yesterday's radio show (rebroadcasting now, 2/1/12) Dr. Harley goes into a lengthy statement about infidelity and how it affects children (and how waywards try to spin the whole thing and how kids often cut off communication with wayward parent). All in response to an email.
It obviously reiterates the above excerpts from various writings, but the spoken word in this case is quite powerful.
worth a listen.

~optimism

Do you have an atty? A good one that only specializes in family law and isn't lazy? The reasons you stated shouldn't be grounds for sole custody. Here in my state it is hard to get sole custody unless you can prove something like abuse, addiction, safety issues, etc.

Regarding telling your kids, did you happen to discuss this with your kids pedi or school counselor? I discussed it with both and they both backed me up, and my pedi actually emphasized that kids do blame themselves so it is better to tell the kids the truth. I made sure to explain to the counselor that I wanted my children to know that they could trust me not to lie to them about all of the changes going on in their life. She was completely in agreement.

In D, the courts understand that either parent can make all the allegations/arguments they want. It doesn't really mean anything if she is "convincing". If you have been an involved parent (school, doctors, friends parents, etc) then the custody evaluator won't just take your WW's word for it, I believe they will go talk to all these folks. Besides, again, not being a very involved parent isn't really grounds for sole custody as far as I understand it...

You got a ton of great weapons to fight this for melody, pepper, and the others.

Print all of the relavent articles out then re write these facts into a well connected thesis.

Then memorize.

Then take this thesis with you to refer to if your memory fails when you have to meet with the custody evaluated. And info for your lawyer when things come done to court.

I agree with all the above guidance. It's all important in terms of understanding the devastating affects of adultery on children (AND the worsening affects of lying about it, directly, or by omission, or by distraction or not allowing kids to accept "adult issues" which impact their lives). I think truly understanding this concept is crucial to how you raise your kids for the rest of their lives.

Said. I also have such a problem with your ex "convincing" a public, impartial, worker. Is this custody person supposed to be objective or is she your wife's sycophant? In many situations like this it seems that if you are not being treated fairly, you have an option to request another such worker; maybe through an appeal process or something of that nature.
I'm sorry to be emotional, it's just very bothersome, this whole thing; that an official of the court could be so overly swayed by what amounts to personal opinion and heresay in such an important matter is absolutely frightening.

opt

Yes, I have an atty that specializes in family law. These concerns are being raised by her through the custody evaluator. Our attorneys have not been involved with this process. Each side gets a copy of the report that is submitted by the evaluator to the court but attorneys have not been in the custody eval sessions.

I have been involved with the kids but she has done the majority of the school, doc stuff because she has been home.

I want to be careful here. I don't "know" the evaluator is being swayed. I won't know until the report is submitted to the court - unfortunately. However, I am ver concerned because these are the issues being raised by my wife and I want to respond as best as I can.

Ok. Ever have the use of a recorder used against you as an example of lack of boundaries and controlling behavior? Mine was discovered and she is doing just that. Not to mention she is using it as another reason why our relationship can't be recovered.

You are in the divorce process right?
So, if she's trying to say you don't trust her, well, um, duh. Of course you don't. You are considering her a business adversary and will employ every tactic available to you to gain an advantage in court and protect your family from her behavior. Maybe she thinks you are a push-over and were going to roll over and let her have her way; but you are not about to do that at the risk of your childrens' welfare.

If your relationship is to be recovered it will be on a very narrow path which will include complete transparency - on both sides. If that happens to include VARs in both of your cars (email and cell phone password exchanges, GPS's etc), then that goes along with the abandonment of BLIND TRUST which is HORRIBLE for marriages. If she is interested in why people shouldn't trust each other, print out a couple of articles about human nature and adultery.

this is a FAVORITE battle cry of the wayward. It's right out of the book, pg 114, don't let it rattle you -- you're doing the right thing.

opt

oh, and it's not lack of boundaries. Quite the opposite. You are protecting yourself. That is the definition of boundaries.
And if she had nothing to hide, she would not have a problem with being surveiled.

Have you been honest with her about what divorce is going to look like, Sbt? This is one step I neglected (I had my reasons, but still at times wish I had handled it differently). I believe you should be forthright about that you don't believe it's healthy for kids to "co parent" and that you will not give your ex the "fantasy divorce" she's looking for....
I can elaborate if you wish.

opt

I just have to add my opinion that her even mentioning the idea of reconciliation seems....interesting. Somewhere in there perhaps she understands that the best chance for HER happiness is actually with you. And a few boundaries of her own. And some accountability. I'd keep an eye on that if you are open to it at all. Marriages have survived affairs -- I don't know the extent of your situation or your feelings on this; but with the plans found here (e.g. extraordinary precautions, etc.), there is always a chance.

opt

First, yes we are in the D process. It's been going on for over a year. We are in the final stages of court ordered custody evaluation right now. For various reasons I won't go into right now we still live together, sleep in the same bed, etc. I won't go into the reason for the recorder other than to protect myself from false accusations.

Yes, please elaborate. In the past she has actually articulated to me her vision of divorce. It looks something like this. She and the kids live in the house, I go to work in the morning, come home in the evening, we have family dinner, hang out and cart kids around to various activities, put kids to bed, then I leave and sleep somewhere else and we aren't married. She even told me at one point a while back that I would be the only person she would have sex with - even after the D. I believe I have chipped away at all of this but I honestly have no idea what she believes now. There is SO MUCH more I could share but I am a little afraid these forums may be monitored by her or her friends. I'd share it all privately but don't know if that's possible.

I am open to it. I have a thread back in the SAA forum. I don't know what she is open to. I believe she loves me. I believe she is hurt, confused, angry and has a need to WIN at everything. I believe she has been and is almost completely incapable of forgiveness. I was unable to plan B because separation was not an option.

okay, sorry I wasn't aware of your thread in SAA; so if I don't have the background info I may be repeating things you've heard over there. But here goes anyway and I hope it bears reiteration.
I believe it's important for a wayward to hear from the BS that there will be no fantasy divorce (if you don't intend to give it). **They often don't listen -- case in point would be Limbo, who was very clear with his now-exWW). However, I neglected this part (again for reasons I felt valid at the time) and wonder now if that was the best thing to omit from the process.

Remind her the D to you, means it's OVER. No dinners, no getting each other's business. Done, minimal communication, only what relates to the kids. You realize it's VERY harmful for the kids to see a "fantasy divorce" where everyone 'gets along' because you are just reinforcing a terrible concept and one that they will be inclined to perpetuate. -It's confusing and damaging- You don't want them to grow up thinking one spouse can cheat, destroy the family, and wind up with something "better." Because it's NOT. It's NOT better. Never will be no matter how much everyone "gets along". Divorce is sick. and No matter how happy two divorced parents are, it will pale in comparison to how happy they COULD be in a loving relationship surrounded by their adoring children, raising their kids TOGETHER, in the same household.

You don't want to get ot the other side of this and fell like this stone was left unturned...

just out of curiosity, why are you concerned about what she or her friends might read here?

opt

That really has me thinking so I'll need to get back to you on that.

BTW, the thread on SAA is cut off about a year ago so there is it's not current.

So, like I said, I don't know what has happened on the SAA side of it or what you've been through. I do know that the divorce is not final. I do know what that feels like.
I always said I would be willing to accept a reconciliation offer from my nowExww up until the 11th hour. Deep down I hoped however, that there would not be one. So, therefore, I did not make it real clear that I was open to it. Now, I wonder if I was truly honest. It's not a comfortable feeling. I could have been more forthright -- just trying to help you not make that mistake.

Back to the WW. Nobody is incapable of forgiveness. However it's exceedingly difficult for one to forgive themselves and even harder to admit they are wrong. Dr. Harley mentioned in today's radio show how waywards have built-in mechanisms for assuaging their own guilt, because they know deep down they are behaving immorally. It's hard to admit you've destroyed your own dreams, let alone those of your own children's and not to mention the one you swore to protect. She would need massive support from you on this if she ever came to it. She won't ever get that from some OM; she also knows that deep down.

I'm not suggesting you do anything particular SBT (nobody would blame you for running her off after MULTIPLE affairs, good grief). Except that if you're truly open to renewal, I offer suggestions as to how to facilitate that as best you can within your power. It starts with a little thing called openness and honesty (probably a tough concept with someone who has hurt you so much.) She's sleeping next to you? Ask her in the middle of the night what she's open to. You have a right to know -- it's your marriage and she's still your wife according to the contract you both agreed to years ago.

No reconciliation could proceed without massive lists of behavior changes on her part, that's pretty clear. You would be teaching your kids the wrong thing if you didn't protect yourself and require certain assurances.

opt

Ok. I've thought about this and I really have no reason to fear others reading this so I'm going to share some more.

My SAA thread can be found here.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=160786&Number=2400249#Post2400249

Again, it ends a while ago so a lot has happened since then.

There have been several "inappropriate relationship" including the main A, a fling with a guy on a airplane, sexting and ppossibly more with her divorce attorney and an ex high school boy friend. Most people at this point ask why I would ever want to reconcile. I'm not sure but I would if the conditions were right. Obviously I don't want to stay in a relationship where there can be no trust. The main point of posting in this forum is that I am now looking for advice on how to handle situations in the divorce more than advice on how to hold things together. Do I still hold out hope she may realize one day that is is possible for us to have a beautiful future together? Yes. But right now I'm looking to navigate this divorce, trying to get at least 50/50 custody and achieve some kids of equitable split of our assets and debt.

This custody evaluation process has me spooked because it has a huge impact on my future with the kids and it's based mostly on "he said, she said" accusations and the MMPI personality test. Yes, we still have trial but the results of this custody evaluation are very hard to overturn in court.

In the mean time we still live together, sleep together, are intimate, etc. Its crazy and I've struggled with it but so far have allowed the situation to continue because at the root of it there is a lot about this woman that I love.

My take.
You are doing what you need to do for you now, painful and confusing as it is.

You are plan Aing since you live/sleep together and do not love bust as you go through this divorce.

Stop being fear driven. It is tough to not be fear driven as you still are living with her and in the vortex of her drama.

I read so much fear in your thread. It is understandable but will lead you to make poor moves onward.

Make choices that you believe are logical and correct despite wondering how she will use them to attack you.

Don't let the custody issue weaken your resolve to be a father who makes choices that are logical. Use logic vs fear to guide your path.

Your children. Do your very best to retain custody of them but do not let fear of not getting it throw you off your game of being a strong man. They need a person who is brave and true and not flinching, angst ridden leader.

You must do your best to keep custody but know that you will be a fine father even if all the outside forces are against it and it doesn't happen. If that worse scenario happens you must be able to handle it for the childrens' sake. If, for whatever reason, you don't retain custody....you stay connected to them each and every day. You call them, skype them, write them letters they get regularly at home in the mail telling them delightful jokes, you plan adventures with them, are their rock to lean on for anything, teach them new skills,etc.

I say this because the children need you to release control of having to control things. To be able to have clarity of the most important issue in the custody realm. That issue is: a parent who is doing the right thing. modeling family values. modeling behavior to others. modeling strength of logic.

HTH

Thanks. I try. It's hard. I don't always stop from love busting but sometime no matter what I do or say it is taken that way. This has been going on for two years and it is very difficult to do for so long. She sees truth as love busting. That me saying this is wrong and damaging to our family, etc is somehow an assault on her. She is very angry. I asked her to direct that anger at the people that are truly trying to damage our family. Thats LB to her.

I have contemplated fighting again by exposing the unethical practices of her atty and what I believe is an EA with the ex boy friend, but I just don't know if I have the strength and i AM fearful that what's involved with that would be used to harm my position in the custody/divorce process.

Anyway, I hear what you are saying and I'll continue to try to remain calm and logical. I think for the most part I have been that rock the kids needed but I also think I may be so far embroiled in this craziness for so long that Im not sure what normal is anymore.

I'm not a vet, but I think Readings post was excellent. Do what you can do to be a great parent. Your actions speak volumes to your children and they will learn from them regardless of your custody situation. You've made heroic efforts to endure this two years. When you can't take anymore, prepare to go to plan b.

Regarding love busters, your wife wants to avoid the truth and hide from it in the same way a black widow spider seeks the cover of darkness. Shining the light of truth on her will make her cower and recoil. Expect it, and never shrink from honesty and your principles. Dr. Harley says to confront the truth to all, but avoid disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts. Telling her that adultery is harmful to children is truthful, and the admonishment is really in my judgment an act of love for the children. On the other hand, calling her a whore (just an example) is a love buster.

While you're in plan A concentrate on meeting her needs, and when conversations come about the affair, be truthful, honest and direct.

Regarding the divorce, do what you can to protect yourself and the children. Don't let her (and her attorney's) head games take you off your objective. Make sure you have a good attorney too. I'm in a similar situation as you right now. The goals of attaining favorable marriage settlement and providing my spouse an attractive alternative to her affair partner are in conflict, but I'm trying to accomplish both.

Good luck.

J3U makes such an important point here. I remember when I was in Plan A I had a lot of trouble with this concept. Now that I have a better understanding of the concepts, I would say that LB's are LB's. As defined by the one conceptualizer of MB. NOT as defined by our wayward spouses.
As Just3ofUs has pointed out, I reiterate. Just because the wife gets mad at something, doesn't make it a lovebuster. Your feelings, commitments, and understandings, when expressed respectfully are NOT lovebusters. And they also COUNT. You are human too, you are entitled to your hurt and anguish in the situation, just like anyone else would be.
Plan A, in my view (I admit I wasn't real good at it), does NOT mean the wayward has to be happy and content with everything all the time. I think it just means that LB's are avoided and EN's are met when possible. Having an opinion and expressing it with conviction can be a very attractive thing -- just like smelling good and listening with empathy.
The OM is a coward. Be the contrast, even if ww doesn't react positively. It's okay to believe what you believe - that's good for you, good for your kids, and good for the family; she can do with it what she will.

opt

Sbt. I'm trying to understand your situation. Granted I haven't gone through your old thread. I'm sure there is a lot to it.

Meanwhile. I hope you get the custody thing decided and in place ahead of an actual divorce. Once that is in place, maybe you could go into Plan B for your own protection. Not having a sense of what is "normal" is, I believe, unhealthy. It sounds like you're losing perspective of your own ideals.

I can relate. Once the ww moved out I began a personal journey back to who I feel I really am. The madness of lack of boundaries and gray-area living got in my rear-view mirror. Then I found myself centering and becoming more of the parent and person I wanted to be.

As long as something is in place in writing, to show the courts you're not separating in order to be a bad parent, Plan B would be less scary. Perhaps you could finally convince her to move out if she knew it wouldn't be used against her.

opt

We won't get custody figured out before divorce. Thats why I have been unable to plan b. if I ever do get to plan b it will be only after D is final. She refuses to accept anything less than full custody. I have tried to propose different splits and I only get "how dare you try to rip the kids away from their mother. They need me.". So, I won't leave for obvious reasons (especially if you read the end of my SAA thread) and she won't leave unless she can take the kids with her.

As Scotland would say: Waywards Suck Azz.

I'm sorry you're going through this.

opt

Stb,

I'm sure it has all been said and the fact that your still in the house tells me it is so.....
DO NOT LEAVE THE HOUSE
DO NOT LEAVE YOUR KIDS
YOU MUST DO WHAT IT TAKES OT FIGHT FOR THEM!!!!

I would be keeping a detailed journal, and would use a DVR to record your interactions with the WW. Her next move could be to claim abuse and slap a restraining order on you.

The obvious response to her saying "how dare you try to rip the kids away from their mother" is

HOW DARE YOU TRY TO RIP THE CHILDREN FROM THEIR FAITHFUL FATHER !!!!!!!

I hope you have the meanest lawyer in town.... if not go find Him /her !!!!

You are in the fight of your life, and you can't show up for a gun fight with a knife !!!!!!! Go get the biggest gun you can find.

Yes.

Im not leaving the house
Im not leaving the kids

I have used a DVR. She has already accused me of verbal and emotional abuse and intimidation. She found it and took it once. Gave it to her atty. now is attempting to use the fact that I recorded everything against me also. The interactions with her arre fine. But because I forgot to turn it off at times it also includes my conversations with counselor, friends, and atty. She has refused to return it.

Wouldn't worry to much about it. GET another DVR and continue to record........ but don't let her find it this time.

I would tread every conversation that you have with her as if it is being recorded, she could bate you and get a response that could hurt you so be on your best behavior

You are at war !!!!! Never forget that !!!!! BE SMART !!!!!

My atty is good but Im sure is very aggressive.

I've asked her why it seems to be ok to take the kids from their father. Her response so far has been that i "can still have complete access to them".

Btw, I have asked for 50/50

Sbt, I think a lot of stbx's, especially waywards, want the full custody because it relates to CS payments. They promise full access because, as long as it's in writing and you're making the full payment, then they can "dump" the kids on you all the time, and still get your money. It burns me up just to say it. This approach is so devious and harmful; it makes a mockery of the court system and I wish there was a way to prosecute mothers who pull these kinds of dishonest, selfish, ugly tactics.

I don't know what state you're in but typically the courts favor a 50/50 kind of thing. There are also some people who try to get 51/49 so that they have the final say -- seems like that might be better for you as I question the ww's true intent or where her real interests lie - with the kids or with herSELF.

I wonder if HTLD (a frequent poster around here) has ever posted to you. He is very good with this kind of thing. You might look for him (Helpthelostdads) if he's not already familiar with your situation.

My attorney was aggressive, but not in my interest, in my KIDS. I was second on the list. I wish you could get her.
_______________________
So, her fantasy divorce picture in her head is alive and well. It's all going to be so nice for everyone...especially her. good grief.


opt

Yes, her fantasy D is still in tact. I've tried to chip away at it but I don't think there has been any real progress.

In addition to all we have already discussed I am almost 100% certain my wife has BPD. I can't diagnose her but I can say that I have seen all of the symptoms in the linked articles and the one on relationships I could have written myself.

http://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a102.htm

http://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm

http://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a108.htm

My WH has been dx with BPD and that is a very good website for you if you want support.

The problem with BPD it has to be dx by a psychiatrist and then to be treated successfully the pwBPD needs to seek and stay in therapy to get better.

If you and your WW decide the stay together you might want to see a doctor to see if she does have BPD.

Make sure the doctor knows how to treat BPD because it will do no good if they don't.

BPD is a very stressful mental illness and can take a toll on the pwBPD's family and loved ones.

Good luck to you.

I haven't been able to find a way to bring this up without triggering her anger and retaliation - especially in the context of the D. I have found some materials for trading BPD that she had gotten from her therapist but she is very guarded about what she is being treated for.

So she doesn't want you to know what she is in therapy for?

Have you read the tools on that website?

I have to come back to a point I made earlier on this. But first a preface:
1. You are afraid to elicit her anger because....I suspect because it's no fun to have someone mad at you.
2. And you are afraid to elicit her retaliation because...I suspect you anticipate losing ground in the custody battle and/or divorce war.

Fine.
First - Dr. Harley presented this issue again on Friday's show and reiterated that it's more important for one person to know how the other feels than it is to avoid reactions. He never advocated disrespect, so being respectful is critical. I would expect you would like to genuinely investigate the depression thing because you are concerned for her welfare, no? There's nothing disrespectful about that. Her reaction you can't control. Too bad. You're her husband, you have a right to be heard. [frankly I think she would appreciate it deep down -- waywards are in a very selfish mindset, and bringing it up in the right way would appeal to her self-centered approach to life]

Second - let the lawyers deal with anticipated retaliation. That's what they're for. They are paid to see things objectively, and you are not. I've earned the right to say this. I was extremely fearful during my divorce that ww's Daddy would step in with his deep pockets and pay some lawyer to bury me. My fear ruled many of the decisions I made during the divorce process (INCLUDING my reluctance to shatter my now-exww's fantasy divorce illusion). In retrospect, my fear had no place in the process. No lawyer would have done the things I was afraid were going to happen to me -- the kids are usually the main factor. It's not like the movies.

So, the point. Openness and Honesty is apparently not a big part of your relationship. However, it is always a good policy. I would say even in the divorce process. Regardless of the reactions. I would encourage you to amp up your openness and honesty starting now. It will be good for your kids to see it. You're stbx may actually appreciate it and her respect for you may actually grow...
--just for the record, I also came by this lesson ever so slowly and ever too late...

opt

I wouldn't chip away at it. I'd present it exactly how it's going to be and what she can expect in the event of divorce. In writing if you can. It's only fair. It's honest. She has a right to know what exactly you will tolerate in her divorce.

"WW, in fairness to you I think you should know that if we go through with the divorce, once it's finalized you will not find me being your buddy, pal, friend, lover, BFF, etc. I won't be mean or disrespectful. But it would simply be too painful for me to face you after this terrible tragedy in our lives and the destruction of our family. You will have become in my mind not the cause (I take responsibility for my part in the demise of our marriage), but a very painful emotional trigger. One that I will work hard to eliminate from my life so that I can move on with a healthy outlook and perhaps get into a meaningful relationship one day.
I will not tolerate, a,b,c, etc"
you get the point.
Nothing disrespectful. Stating your boundaries. Fairly giving her the truth and facts.
Better this than finding out after the fact that you had no intention of playing into an unhealthy picture of Divorce, and coparenting, and nightly dinners, and all that happy jazz that waywards love.

Openness and Honesty. It's a wonderful thing. I say that with a couple years of solid experience. My life is way better with it than it was without it.

opt

I'll work on being more up front ASAP. Yes, of I describe my relationship with her I have developed a deep fear of saying how I feel. I have stuffed my feelings for many years. I believe partially because I don't like conflict but also because she does would often retaliate verbally (she is never wrong) or emotionally (silence, body language, etc). I realize this probably sounds rediculous but that's how I feel. I have huge levels of anxiety disproportionate with the topic. Interestingly I have non of that in interactions with other people, I believe generally because I seem to get rational responses from other people.

It doesn't sound ridiculous at all sbt. I lived it for many years myself. I believe we tend to be different with our spouses (and other loved ones) because there is more at stake.
There is also so much more to gain once the fear is conquered.

opt

Just to add: I believe I've read Melody saying conflict avoiders often wind up divorced. I did a lot of conflict avoiding, and here I am. My ex was never wrong either; in retrospect however, we had very poor negotiation skills and new nothing of POJA.

Dr. Harley says often that he has conflicts with his wife every day. It's how you deal with the conflicts. Something that really jumped out at me was that he says most people aren't stubborn or inflexible, they simply haven't learned how to negotiate yet.

Anyway I just think now is the time to let your true feelings be heard. After the D is final, it's really too late.

opt

I know and I'm trying not to avoid conflict - been working on that for a couple years and getting better. I have told her I would prefer we were open and honest and have exposed her to the concepts of POJA and negotiating. In response she asked to stop treating her like a two year old. I've been trying and will continue to try. BTW, I don't think I have avoided all conflict. It just took me a while to recognize my anxiety about it and take intentional action to overturn it.

Interestingly, I believe she is looking for someone who avoids conflict. The only people she has around her are people that are scared to challenge her on anything.

At the risk of being very unhelpful I will just say that mocking you is a tactic of people who like to manipulate others. Obviously it is a lovebuster of proportion; if she were to adhere to some basic concepts, she would not be intimidating you with DJ's and AO's.

The sad thing is that behavior like that tends to perpetuate itslft into the next generation. Not genetically but through pure learning and observation. I believe it becomes our job as the enlightened spouse to strive even harder to set a positive example. Ultimately the hope would be that the kids would eventually see which types of behavior tend to lead to more happiness in life.

I realized from reading here how important it was for my kids to see at least one parent with some integrity. Since then I've paid attention to boundaries with myself and others - trying to set an example of how one is to guard against poor decision making. We can't change our spouse's behavior (or anyone else's). The best we can do is set an example for ourselves and others, and then be confident others will notice.

opt

Anybody ever seen this? She just started going to a support group for battered and abused women claiming she has been in a controlling and abusive relationship.

I also wish I had been more upfront with my feelings and had not avoided conflict. That led to many, many issues that possibly could have been resolved. Act on it while you can.

Linus

Holy smokes. You're out of my league now.
Others have talked about this type of thing but I've never been part of the discussions, so I don't know what the general rule of thumb is on countering this sort of manipulation and intimidation technique. It sounds like your stbx is simply insane.

Hopefully the facility she went to is used to seeing the "real" thing as opposed to the "I'm trying to get custody of my children so I am here to trump up some false charge designed to bamboozle the court system." I hope someone there is trained enough to know she's faking it.

Has she ever filed a police report against you? Have you ever had a restraining order against you? Have you ever lost a job due to inapproprite/aggressive behavior in the workplace?

I would expect your lawyer will know how to handle this. My guess is her little stunt is going to amount to nothing more than a massive infusion of resentment (towards her by you AND your children) as well as a huge increase in the lawyers bills on BOTH sides.

Hopefully the truth will prevail; as it usually does in the end.

~opt

SBT

Your chidren are teens right?

Not sure there is a standard way or general rule to deal with this. You can't control her actions only yours.

Unknowingly to me my XWW told our small neighborhood the same story along with me trashing the house and being a lousy providor. When I finally did find out I opened the house up and let a few neighbors walk through. Told them to walk through-open any door or drawer they wished to see the distruction I caused.

They laughed at her from that point on.

My XWW went to some type of group but it was short lived because there were no police reports or hidden secrets she could use. The "real deals" were there and saw the BullS/manipulation right away from her.

Simply when I stopped playing her manipulation game she did not like it. When I took stands on what I believed and expressed it in statements to her ( not AO/DJ's) she did not like it. It was hard for her to gain support from anyone except bar friends/low lifes and D'd people who basically went down the same road as her. (Wayward/probably alcoholics)

More than likely she (your WW) is sinking to a new level. It is not one that flatters a person.

If you don't have a VAR get one today. I know you said she found one and her lawyer has it.

If you can put a recorder in a common area of the house or other strategic areas do that also. Be creative when hiding them. Velcro allows you to hide them in unique places.

Document -your handwriting/dated -every day and get copies to your laywer on a regular basis so if they are found you don't loose everything you have. Just document pertinant facts about the whole day without your emotions or opinions. If something is an agreement you made with her and the agreement was violated note that. Just try to write it like a newscast w/o feelings or emotions. Like a third party observer.

Have trusted friends or relatives at the house as often as possible that would be willing to give statements if it came to that point.

Have you cooperated with the custody study officials? Usually they observe you in the home. Has this been done? If there is nothing to hide then there is nothing to worry about.

Wouldn't hurt to talk to the local police and ask their advice what you should do if she tries to manipulate cicumstances to get a DV charge against you.

This may be the point where she is trying to get to. Let the law remove you from the house.

Don't know if any of this helps. Just mainly wanted to let you know I am reading along and support you.

Remember-You can't fix crazy or delusional in anybody else.

ETA-No angry outbursts of any type from you around her or the kids. Bring it here or find a support group IRL to take that to.

nESRE

I'll respond to all this a little later.

There is nothing to hide. I have no history of controlling or abusive behavior.

Makes nESRE's suggestions even more powerful. They say the one with the most paper in court usually wins.
Divorce (and the separation phase prior to it becoming final) might be your path to a good plan B which I am starting to think you need desperately.

opt

I have no history of this type of behavior either, but in our counselling sessions, WW complained that she felt that I was very controlling, and she was always afraid to speak up because I had to have my way. This is the same crap sho told POSOM. Funny thing, though, after a few sessions, the MC said he saw no sign of it. Standard wayward talk. She also referred to my 'emotional abuse' of her from time to time.
She never went as far as your WW, though. Be very careful, my friend. Record every conversation that you have with her if there is no other witness

I meant to ask Sbt, and I realize this may be ridiculous, but how would (or does) she respond when you ask what it is that you do that she construes as abusive and controlling?

I never really understood what "controlling" behavior was. Manipulative yes, but controlling I just don't get.

probably not productive, but I really am interested.

opt

okay, I have the answer - the first 5 chapters of Lovebusters. It was all on the radio show today. DJ's, AO's, and SD's.

opt

so............Sbt, any of these going on? or is more like Linus's stbxww? I was accused of "controlling" behavior, but I don't believe I ever got any specifics on which behaviors were controlling (although I definitely had a hx of AO's.); during her affairs the controlling behavior was anything that involved me not supporting her adultery.

I do need it - but don't want it - at the same time. It's also impossible without an agreement regarding the kids and we are very far apart on that issue.

Well I've stayed away from some of these specifics in order to avoid detection on these boards but here goes anyway.

What she has seen as controlling and abusive in the past...
Apparently her life was constantly revolving around me... Not my view at all.
I told the kids about her affair... Abusive.
I confronted her and tried to put together an intervention when I discovered she was taking thousands of Vicodin per year... Abusive and controlling
I filed a complaint against her doctor who was prescribing all that vicodin... Controlling.
I took pictures and documented her alcohol consumption... Controling
I recorded our conversations... Controling.
I confronted her about her alcohol consumption and hiding bottles of vodka around the house... Abusive and Controling.

Alonon has taught me that some of those things actually are controling because I ended up shielding her form the consequences of her own behavior. But at the time I was gravely concerned about her life and the safety of the kids.

Sbt, I'm truly sorry. Especially now, having not read your original thread. That's my laziness and I really should have taken the extra time. I didn't realize there was addiction going on.

So, unfortunately, as you know, Dr. Harley is very clear that none of this really works if there is addiction present. That is the first thing that needs to be cleared up for MB principles to succeed. That's my understanding.

Having more insight I would say that none of the things mentioned above fall under the first three Lovebusters (or could be considered controlling by MB philosophy). I think alonon is a great organization and essential but I don't see how any of that shielded her from the consequences. But I'm no expert with alanon's philosophy.

Anyway. I stand even stronger by some of the ideas that have been offered to you (not just my own).

What I meant about plan B is that it could happen as an outgrowth of the divorce procedure which is usually proceeded by a separation ("cooling off") period of 3 to 6 months in most states. During that time the custody arrangement WILL have been established by you and your lawyers - it's a mandatory part of the process. Plan B for you could start the day the court agrees to the arrangement you all have hammered out.

I don't see her getting full custody if there is a documented history of pain med and alcohol abuse.

opt

Coincidently I believe she may have stopped both Vicodin and drinking just prior to the custody evaluation so now it's my word against hers. She claims now she never had a problem. I just want her to get treatment if she needs it.

The divorce will take time. Have your lawyer write in the separation agreement that further alcohol or abuse or prescription medication abuse will cause a re-evaluation of the custody arrangement, whatever that may be at the time (it will be the same for both of you, so it will be fair, and also very much in the best interest of the kids).
It's a small town right? Not much goes un-noticed.
If she was addicted and has not had proper treatment, she is bound to relapse during this process. Keep your documentation and continue to document everything related. Are you friends with her friends on FB? Someone's always taking pictures of stuff that might be helpful to you.

opt

I can't see ever being able to plan b. We are miles apart on custody. Now I'm hearing her atty say she may want to settle in order to get this over more quickly.

When does the sick feeling in your stomach go away?

And did you ever notice that a WS always surround themselves with people who are divorced or divorcing?

Funny you mention that. At the same time that my WW and I were having our issues around her engaging with OM on Facebook, her sister was doing the same. They encouraged each others Independent Behavior, etc. Her sister just got divorced also, of course.

--opt in blue

When a person is doing something they know is wrong but won't admit it. They surround themselves with like minded people for "moral support" to justify doing the evil that they chose to do.

Maybe I'm a little slow here but I can't see how I would plan b before the d is final. This process is all new to me however.

.
no worries.
The divorce process usually consists of a period prior to the D being final. That period is essentially a trial separation, in my best estimate. It's when the conditions of the pending divorce are implemented -- separation of assets, child custody arrangements are put in effect, etc. This period is usually 6 months from my reading of other situations here (mine was 3 months but I think the judge was in a good mood that day).
IF that's the case in your situation and in your state, you could very feasibly start a plan B the minute one of you moves out. "I can't see you anymore; it hurts my eyes and causes too much pain in my heart that you have chosen another man. I need to heal and I can't do that when everytime I see you or talk to you it rips open the wound again. I will talk to you through an intermediary, etc. etc." Scotty is the expert of Plan B, check her thread and get her input if/when you are ready.

I hope that helps, sbt.

opt

I spoke to my attorney. There won't be a time to implement a plan b before the d is final unless there is some kind of temperary custody order.

Okay then as soon as you are not living together. Can you start a plan B letter? I think it's a good idea to establish the reason and terms of your plan B -- otherwise the WS just thinks you're being unreasonable and cruel. It's not unreasonable and cruel; it's the only way you can begin to heal. It's also how to teach your kids that it's absolutely right to remove yourself from an abusive situation.

opt

Well this just went to an entirely new level. She has now told her mother she is or has been afraid for her life. This is crazy.

If you do not already HAVE a VAR buy one NOW! PRONTO! For whenever you are forced to be around her.

WWs who start claiming this can get very nasty, just ask PSUBIKER...what state are you in, though?

I agree with some earlier posts, VARs need to be in cars, you need a parenting journal...that parenting journal could save your behind in some places and the VAR in others.

SBT

I also forgot about the addiction your WW has/had is hiding from you better ?

My alcoholic WW broke my plan B several times and usually broke into the house when I was at work.

My then 16 y/o DD and I moved out to an apartment 20 miles away. My DD moved back home after 5 months. I moved back home and I walked into the middle of full raging alcoholic and full blown A with a neighbor 5 houses away.

I would not recommend it to anyone.

Your WW is capable of new low levels you will never understand but the game is munipulate any circumstance to their advantage to anyone anywhere.

YOUR FEELINGS AND CONCERNS ARE NOT EVEN IN HER THOUGHTS. ALL THAT IS THERE IS HOW CAN I GET WHAT I WANT- WHEN I WANT IT?

NO OTHER THOUGHTS WITH IT.

This is not your W. She is an alien in your W's body.

EXPECT anything and everything.

Re-read my post to you on 2-8-12. I HIGHLY suggest you take any and all precautions.

Hang on cause your in for a ride you probably aren't going to like.

Is your MIL still living with you guys and what does she see?

nESRE

I don't know what state you are in but why would you divorce before custody is settled? That seems like a disaster in the making. Your state doesn't have a default custody schedule? Even if you WW moved out and took the children, you would get court ordered visitation. Unless you live in some very weird state, I don't understand what your attorney is telling you or doing for you. No parent is going to get full custody because they don't like the other parent. Do you have a scheduled trial date?

As for 50/50...well you also need to be realistic about what shared custody means for you. Many people get caught up on the term '50/50'...it never is and it's unrealistic to try and count every hour and day the children are with you vs her. Again, there is no standard default for your state that you can start with and modify to give you additional time when you are not working?

As for her latest claim of being scared of you...well considering she lives in the same house and sleeps in the same bed with you, she can't be too scared now can she.

I stated that wrong. I meant we won't have a temperary arrangement before the divorce is final. Mostly because neither of us will leave the kids. I'm not going to allow her to "move out with the children" and accept visitation. Ive been warned that temperary orders become final often.

By 50/50 I do mean at least half time. I'm am and have been a good father and its best for the kids to be at least half influenced by me.

Before I departed, I did tell my step kids(15 and 14 yrs before I departed what was going on...their stepfather is having an affair. I first told them we were having problems he and I only. A lot of folks thought I was horrible for doing that, but it was important to me to let those children know I did not leave because of them and their actions. I did not want the Ex telling those childern I departed because of them. It was not so...stepfather, their Dad had an affair outside of our marriage not me and it was not their fault. He ruined the family we had and despised me I found out later while in the marriage. I took the heat for telling these children the truth, but I believe in telling the truth! The Ex would have told them lies about me which he did anyway.

Any changes SBT? You seem like the rock in this marathon whereas your stbx seems unlikely to maintain her abstinence from destructive behaviors.

Just thinking of you.

opt

We haven't heard from you - hope all is okay.

Sorry I got away from here for a while. Things have taken a very dark and ugly turn. We went through the custody evaluation process and recently got the report from the evaluator. The result made me sick.

In the interviews with the evaluator my oldest daughter said that I was physically abusive with her and all the kids and had an uncontrollable temper. None of you know me so you will have to take my word it that there is absolutely no truth in that.

My oldest son did one better. He claimed my relationship with my youngest daughter was creepy and the way I touched her and talked to her made him wonder if I was a pedophile.

I have a good relationship with my oldest son. We spend a lot of time together. I am very involved with his life. I can't even comprehend where that came from.

Evaluator recommended full custody of the kids to my WW.

Im in shock and have no idea where to go from here.

Btw, these are all lies planted by a WW that is dead set on getting the kids.

Do you have any way to challenge these statements? Have you spoken to your lawyer about this?

Sbt,

Have you documented all this? Can you get this investigated? Can you have your children interviewed by a child psychologist that would be able to tell if it's made Yingli?

What are you doing to fight this?

If it's what?

Brainy, are you all right? Have you had enough sleep today?

SBT, since this is only a recommendation, I would start working on disproving the evaluator's report. Get an independent evaluation. Fight this!

Hopefully some of our men will jump in here and help you.

Since one of the charges is that you have an uncontrollable temper, you might want to consider proactively taking an anger management course just to prove to the authorities that you are serious about being a good parent. There are a lot of courses I found online where the main point is to get through the course, get a certificate that can be presented to court, etc.

You might want to check with a lawyer or someone else first to make sure that doing so won't hurt your case. I don't think it will, but I don't know for sure.

Beyond that, do what princessmeggy said and fight this. Get a bulldog lawyer who will impugn the credibility of the evaluator, get multiple opinions, etc.

I have discussed this with an my attorney. We are putting together a plan. I intend to fight it. I wouldn't calle my atty a bulldog but I think he's good.

I don't have any anger issues. I'll ask my atty about taking the class. I'm concerned that could be seen as an admission of having the problem.

I feel this has been a systematic plan by my WW to alienate me from my kids and now take them completely.

SBT. what I'm thinking you probably won't like to hear, especially in regards to the short term... but I'll take the liberty.

I believe the truth will prevail. Eventually. I believe that with effort, the lies that your ex is promoting, and that she now has your kids promulgating, will fall apart.

I believe that if you continue to live with integrity and in honesty and openness with your children (when you have the opportunity to interact with them), they will grow weary of the deceitful lives they will be living with your ex.

I would continue to keep your side of the street squeaky clean. If you drink, quit. If you smoke, quit. don't date. If you have spirituality keep it. If you can involve yourself with a volunteer organization and donate time, that would be great.

Kids don't want to be surrounded by lies. They want stability and structure. Eventually they will gravitate to that. I truly believe that. I'm just sorry that it's not something that will be easy or happen overnight. In fact, quite the opposite.

opt

I don't drink. I don't smoke. I'm not dating - not even close. I'm tired. We all still live in the same house. I've been fighting for my family for 3 years now. I want to fight but there is a big part of me that just wants this all to be done. Unfortunately that means I get very limited access to my kids. So that reenergizes me and the circle starts all over again...

You may be able to ask for a guardian ad litem for your kids. That is someone who works for the court who represents the children-not anyone else-in matters like these. Ask your lawyer about this. It might help.

That was crazy!
Look what happens when I need sleep.

I've lost a lot of faith in people and this process. Custody evaluator also saw no problem with WW taking over 3000 vicodin and drinking about $4000 in alcohol in a year. I was portrayed as being controlling for trying to put together an intervention. Prescribing doctor said it was fine also.

Well of course the prescribing doctor doesn't give a rip, she must be making him oodles of money.

You have to keep fighting. Your WW WILL slip up, or one of the kids WILL suddenly decide it's not okay to LIE.

Do not lose faith.

X2

I guess I don't understand what you mean when you say "fight."
Your kids are teenagers. They know honesty from dishonesty. They also know the importance of using words accurately to describe a situation, including and especially as it relates to the fate of another man. They certainly understand the implications of words in the context of a legal situation, essentially a court of law.

Now, you find yourself living with....and supporting to whatever extent...a woman who has implemented a deceitful plan to take away your very right to legally see your kids until they are 18 and considered adults. You are living with....and supporting to whatever extent...a girl who has been an accomplice in this plan and essentially accused you of being a wife and child abuser. Your son, who you are supporting to some extent has now essentially accused you, in addition, of being a child molester.

Have you considered fighting for SBT instead of "your family?" Have you considered protecting yourself from these people who you say have become engrossed in a life lies and deception?

Maybe it's time to respectfully plan B* the whole lot of them. With a massive exposure about the whole mess to everyone you think might be a friend or at least have an ounce of sense in their heads.


I would like to know what Dr. Harley would say about this. Have you considered calling the radio show?


Opt

*NOTE: I respectfully submit the idea of Plan B here. Not condoning "disappearing" for a while, or abandoning your family -- that's not what plan B is or would be in this situation. I'm talking about removing yourself from a toxic, unhealthy, dishonest environment. If you are interested I will say more about how I would implement this strategy logically and systematically.
Also a disclaimer. I did NOT implement Plan B in my situation, so I am no expert. However, after retrospection and months/years of gaining full understanding of the MB concepts, I can see just how effective it is (and possibly could have been for me), when done correctly in extreme situations.
Also a quesestion SBT: is it possible your teenagers are using any of these prescription meds? I know it seems beyond comprehension but my girlfriend had a problem child and she tells of some craziness from when he was 15...things do happen.

I also have two children under 6.

I'm sorry SBT, I went back to your original post in this thread. There is nothing in your signature, so it's not easy to keep track but this is what I found:


I must have misunderstood that there are other kids as well and perhaps which is being said to and by whom might be where I went wrong.

Either way, a nice big long letter to Dr. Harley at the radio show with a request for a little direction might be in order. There is a sense of urgency here and the radio show in my view, addresses this type of thing quite nicely.

opt

Yes Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

Sorry. 5 kids. 4 minor. Daughters 19, 12. Sons 14, 6, 3.

I don't think any of my kids are using. I can't prove it but I have no reason to believe it. I also am not certain that my WW is anymore either. I do know that she hides continued drinking.

I would like to hear more about your thoughts on plan b.

Well, SBT, I understand the magnitude of going into a Plan B with a whole family of 5 who are counting on you. However, I also understand the implications of being falsely accused of multiple charges, by several family members, much to your detriment; and having to continue to try to thrive in that environment...it is important that you set an example for AT LEAST the younger kids about what self-respecting people do when they are living in an unhealthy, abusive situation. (and I believe dishonesty abuse).
What do they do? They remove themselves from the situation.

What I wanted to reiterate is the importance of making it clear (in writing) why you are removing yourself from the situation. In clear terms to all involved. Clear, logical, non-threatening, non-accusatory, sensible, I'm-protecting-myself-from-now-on type of terms that all can understand; even little kids. And what conditions will have to be met before you give the involved parties opportunities to abuse you more.

The way I'm reading it, you have nothing to lose anymore, SBT. Your wife is successfully taking your kids away from you. The only thing left is the part where she employs you as a babysitter that actually pays HER (that's the definition of Child Support for this type of person); so that you can "have some time with the kids."

What message do you want to impart to your children?

opt

Well here is an update. In short I am looking for anyone who may have experience fighting for custody where their are all the things I have already described as well as a heathy dose of alienating behaviors.

I am now about 5 weeks from trial. I am working my way through discovery request and preparing my own arguments. I am broke and my atty tells me that due to the complexity of my case I can expect 40-50k in additional fees to get through trial. I have asked my wife to settle this to avoid trial and she has ignored the request. She has also asked that I pay her atty fees. I find this highly insulting because through all of this she has refused to get a job - stating that she has always stayed home with the kids so she will continue.

In the mean time we continue to live together - sleeping in the same bed - I guess because I continue to want our family to stay together. However, even I have finally begun to realize that the confusion this has probably created with the kids may be even more damaging. However, I also find myself not able to have honest conversations with the kids because of what I perceive to be an unhealthy alliance between them and their mother. Over the years I have encouraged the relationship between them and their mother. I am starting to see that that wasn't reciprocated.

My atty continues to recommend that I not leave.

Here are a couple examples of independent and alienating behavior that has happened in the last couple weeks.

Over Fathers day weekend I informed her I planned to take the boys (3,6) with me to my oldest son's (14) tournament over the weekend. She told me "no", i couldn't take them. I took them anyway. On the way out she was crying, giving the little boys hugs and saying over and over to the kids "I'm so sorry this is happening. I'm so sorry this is happening." She showed up (unplanned) at the tournament and took the kids from me and hung out with us for the weekend. A weekend I was hoping to spend with my boys was thwarted by her - it was spent watching her play with the boys.

Over the fourth of july I had planned on taking the four minor kids to take my parents house (out of state). All four of the kids (even my 4 yo) were told my her to inform me of "their desire not to go". I told my son (14) he was going to go anyway to see his grandparents. She went on (in front of our son) about how my parents "don't give a [censored]" about our kids, etc. because they don't call. She encouraged him to run away instead of coming with me - which he did. When I called him and told him he needed to come back and get in the car to leave or my next call would be to the police he texted his mom and she told him not to worry about it - that the police would just talk to him but couldn't make him go with me. He eventually returned and I got him in the car and we had fun. On the way out, in front of all the kids, my wife was sobbing loudly - upset because the kids were going with me.

I wasn't told that she took our daughters out of her sport and started looking for new sports. I found out from my daughter - after the fact.

I wasn't told about my youngest dentist appointment. I found out about it afterwards.

I wasn't told about a meeting at my oldest boys school - with the dean. I found out about it by overhearing a conversation in the house. When I asked about the meeting she refused to tell me the time. Luckily I was listening carefully and was able to figure out the time and show up anyway.

She told the kids it was "my fault she had to get a job because I'm hiding money."

She is telling her friends and the kids that I had an affair with someone who used to be a friend of our family. Now my kids won't talk to this friend. I never had an affair - not even close.

I also heard (third hand) that my wife "has a gold mine in hidden accounts". I have no way of knowing if that's true.

I could go on and on.

BTW, SHE has decided to fight the custody evaluation. My atty and I were going back and forth about how hard I should fight it because it is expensive to pull apart a court appointed custody evaluation. SHE made that decision easy because SHE decide that a recommendation that I get the kids every other weekend and one overnight during the week was too much so SHE is going to fight it in court.

I love my kids and my family. I never imagined someone could be like this. Now I'm trying to figure out how to make it the next 5 weeks in the house and how to fight all of this in court.

Sad part is, if she were to make a major change in behavior and commit herself to our family, I would still prefer to work all this out and stay together.

So it's been two months and nothing has really changed.

Since this is the Marriage Builders website, can I ask what MB principles have you applied to the situation?

In other words: okay, you're getting a divorce. Your wife is vehement in her position. Your kids are unfortunate to be in the middle of this sad craziness. We have all that.

We also know that eliminating LB's can strengthen all relationships in a person's life, even in the midst of turmoil. We know that meeting a spouse's emotional needs can lead to them falling in love with us. We know that exposure kills affairs. We know that 15-20 hours of UA restores romantic love. We know about friends and enemies of good communication. We know that POJA leads to healthy negotiations.

Speaking of POJA...

Divorce or no divorce, this is no way to negotiate with your wife. It's no way to set an example for your children about how 2 people come to agreements. Allowing your children to witness a scene with your wife crying and carrying on without trying to find a more agreeable resolution is not helping your children. I would be willing to bet that your kids would rather have skipped the tournament (or even a trip to disney) in order to avoid having to see that scene play out. I'm not condoning her behavior (crying and the things she said were pure manipulation in my view since she really isn't "sorry" or else she would actually do something about it...). But I'm not condoning yours either.

So, SBT, can you tell me if you have been able to apply even one MB concept to your life and your situation in the last 2 months. I would feel much better about this whole thing if you could.

opt

Yes - here you go.

LBs: I have eliminated all LBs that I believe I can. However, her tactics in the divorce have lead to unavoidable conflict. She gets angry that I come home from work mid-afternoons because she feels like I'm checking up on her. There are several reasons I come home early. She has a history of drinking and hiding bottles of alcohol around the house. She has refused to admit this was a problem and get treatment for it - she just says she never had a problem and that she stopped. She has positioned me as an absentee parent. I haven't been but I'm not going to give her more ammunition by working until 6 every day.

ENs: I have tried to meet her emotional needs. She needs to feel valuable, beautiful and wanted. I've been doing the best I know how at this for over two years now in the face of affairs and the divorce. My primary motivation now is to continue to meet those needs up to the divorce being final so that when I'm gone she may realize some day that she misses me. I would have executed a plan B a long time ago but the drugs, alcohol and 5 kids made that impossible as far as I could figure out.

Early in this process we had a few sessions with Steve. The A was still happening at the time. She quit after 3-4 sessions.

I gave you the short version of an attempted negotiation about taking the kids to the tournament. I tried to negotiate hard for her to agree that the boys could come with me. A reasonable person would not have had an issue with it. It was fathers day weekend and I had the opportunity to spend time with the kids. She was not able to articulate any reason the kids couldn't go with me other than it was a change from what she thought was going to happen. Also, keep in mind the dynamics here as well. She has tried to position me as someone who isn't involved and doesn't care about the kids. Thats not true but it's the reality in her head. The kids didn't have any problem with going until their mom was crying and carrying on.

BTW, mixed in all of this I have tried to spend significant time with her. Sometimes she agrees and sometimes she doesn't. Within the last week she would tell me she loves me one day then tell me she her hopes of things changing for the better were smashed because I expressed an interested in attending my son's school meeting. Wanting to attend a school meeting or doctors visit with my kids shouldn't lead to her hopes of our relationship being better being crushed. She flips from love to hate in a matter of minutes and hours and she stays in hate mode for a long time. It usually takes me days and weeks of constant hard work (no LBs, laser focus on her needs, etc.) in order to bring her back from the "hate" mode. She is a very black an white person - absolutely no shades of gray or forgiveness.

I can tell you more but I'm out of time right now. Feel free to fire away.

Also, I did expose the original A to as many people as i could. The A died for a while - then restarted - now I think it is dead. I stopped snooping when it became obvious to me that it was going to be positioned in court as controlling, abusive, lack of boundaries type behavior that would hurt my case. I have no reason to believe the original A is still going on. But I know she never agreed "officially" end all contact with a letter. She just told me she would no longer contact him. Maybe she has or maybe she hasn't. I have no way of knowing and quite honestly there are so many other things in the way of our relationship that I'm not sure I even care right now.

So you don't know if there's an OM or not? Why would snooping hurt your case?

So when will your D be final?

Correct. I don't know. I believe she hasn't been in regular contact with OM but there are a couple of nights in the last 12 months she didn't come home. She had a story (slept at a friends house, etc) but I have no idea what to believe.

Snooping has already been used against me in court. I was portrayed as a jelious, controlling man with no respect for her personal boundaries by her attorney. I lost te judge at that moment. It didn't matter what I did or why I did it. He was upset at me.

The trial is the end of August.

Btw, while I believe there is one OM more important there have been others (although I don't believe physical) including her divorce attorney.

Require her to have psychological testing. Ask for a hair follicle test on her.

Anyone have advice as to how he can prove any of this? She is cunning and convincing. They don't see the real her. What does your attorney say? It is crazy that her word was taken so simply to give her full custody.

She took mmpi test as part of custody evaluation. Nothing significant. She lied her way through a chemical dependency evaluation. I don't know if drugs and alcohol are still a factor. I just know she lied about it in the past and never got treatment.

I still think that holding yourself to the hightest standard will eventually win you the favor of your children. Even if you lose them in the short term, along with everything else.

I believe that MB principles are based on truth and honesty. And that they eventually lead to some sort of salvation when integrated into one's life top to bottom.

With an absence of LB's and attempts to maintain a marital relationship, you can at the very least never look back and say you didn't try. And at the most, the truth will prevail and you will come out with a moral victory, sleeping soundly at night and setting a positive example for your children; hopefully diverting their temptation to be wicked in dishonesty - the example they seem to be getting from their other parent.

opt

I try. I'm not always successful. How do you not LB when you are accused of things you didn't do. Then she talks about how much she is hurt by it. But I never did it in the first place. So I say something like "I'm sorry you feel that way but I really never had an affair.". What I get in return is "there you go telling me I'm wrong again. I just want to be heard and be treated like a human.".

I have learned to leave the part after the "but" off sometimes but at some point I get tired of hearing how I had an affair and how I did this and that when SHE is the one who had multiple affairs (at least one of them physical), drank too much, etc. and won't admit to any of it anymore.". There are times I just can't keep all that inside.

Rant for the day...over.

Well I should have known that after a day of unusual anger by her where she found reasons to start in on the same old arguments again, that she wouldn't come home tonight. I know she filed for D and we are only a month away from court but it still hurts.

If I knew with who I'd consider exposing again but I don't and Im tired of feeling like this. Its been three years now since the behaviors started to change and 2 years since the first A started. It's been hard emotionally. Someday I hope I can find someone who is capable of being in a loving relationship. Besides my kids, 23 years of my life have been wasted. I try to come up with reasons. Me, her, drugs, alcohol, men. All of the above. My heart hurts.

I'm sorry you are going through this sbt. Your ww seems to be taking full advantage her ability to legally establish that she can do whatever she wants whenever she wants with whomever she wants however she wants for as long as she wants without regards for who she might be affecting by her actions. Moms simply dont stay out all night unaccounted for.

But you have to live with it because somehow questioning her behavior somehow makes you the bad guy and puts you in an unfavorable light in the court you're involved with.

I bet a lot of waywards would be very jealous of your wife.

Did the kids notice their mom's absence?

The kids didn't know. She was back before anyone was awake in the morning. That's been her pattern when she has done this before as well.

I'm glad you said what you said. I question myself sometimes. Regardless of what happened its wrong right? She claims she drank too much and needed to wait before she drive home. I think "youre a mother of five kids. Why are you drinking so much you need to wait until 5:30 am to drive home?".

Btw, I don't necessarily believe her either. I will never know if she is telling me the truth. I just tell myself that what I don't know doesn't matter because what I DO know (that she was gone from 9-5:30) is enough...and it's wrong...even in a healthy marriage situation. Right??

Also, I found an expert today who completely dismantled the original custody evaluation. Now I need to work quickly to get a bunch of work done to prepare for trial.

Yes. What she is doing is wrong. Don't let her gaslight you, my friend.
Please explain gaslighting

I'm sure you're already doing this, but you documented her being out all night, correct?

Yes. Wrote it downin my journal, took a picture of the empty space in the garage and got her explanation in text.

Well, SBT, this is the best news I've heard in a long time.

I have the impression that the fear your ww has instilled in you has been paralyzing. I've been saying that I believe the separation period of divorce will actually give you some clarity. I think being out of the turmoil (to whatever extent it turns out to be) will be good for you personally, and indirectly for the kids. So, all this in conjunction with removing some of the fear of losing your kids in the process, I should think, will be a big plus for you and your family.

HE with the most paper usually wins in court. Come up with a detailed timeline if you don't already have one -- use your thread to remind you of all the salacious details. If they don't read it, they might weigh it...

opt

Can you explain what this expert picked apart? How? What is he/she saying is wrong with the original custody. I am very interested as I want to be able to be on top of this for myself. How did you find this person? You are showing such strengh and perseverance. Thank you for sharing your story with us.

LB3, if I may: SBT's ww has been successful in putting together an extremely advantageous and intimidating position for herself. She apparently has a lawyer who has managed to turn all of SBT's efforts to save the marriage (like exposing her affair, and trying to get help from people that love him and his wife) into devious unlawful acts. She has somehow managed to secure a custody evaluation proclaiming herself to be supremely capable of caring for the kids, in spite of evidence to the contrary; she has pre-emptively won almost full custody. If you haven't read the entire thread it's worth seeing just how devious people can be.

[t/j]I have a friend who has started an initiative in Massachusetts to make shared custody the DEFAULT in divorce cases. [He has had to fight tooth and nail and at prodigious personal expense to win a modicum of custody of his 2 kids. Their marriage ended due to infidelity on her part.]
Thus far, he has been awarded a congressional team to investigate and debate the issue once a month in hopes of coming up with a bill. On that small team is a divorce lawyer who is staunchly opposed to the concept; to the core.

Problem is, there is a lot of money wrapped up in the destruction of families.

Seems to me that when someone like that lawyer gets involved with some of these infidelity situations, they see nothing but dollar signs. It's very sad, in my view. [end t/j]

I know the truth will come out SBT. I hope you're working hard on that journal. It will definitely come in handy and very much in your favor someday.

opt

opt, I have read the whole thread. I am really amazed at how she was able to get everything to go her way. I want to avoid being put in any similar situation by my manipulative husband. I am not quite sure what he is capable of. He REALLY does not want to look bad, so if he could get primary custody or something, (which would be the abolutely worst thing for the children) it would give him something to make it look like it was my fault. He eluded to something of the sort last year. So, I was asking sbt for the who, how and what for my benefit.

By the way, I have been on this site for over a year. I just didn't take the advice given to me. I am seeing all of your wisdom now.

SBT, you haven't told your children that their mother is with another man?

I told them the truth in age appropriate ways when A started. I haven't told then anything since D started because it is used against me. I think the words used were "exposing the kids to adult issues.". It doesn't go over well with child welfare "experts" and the court.

No, the words are "telling the truth". I understand that your fear keeps you from acting, but I think you should at least consider making sure part of the divorce agreement prohibits your WW from having men with her when your children are with her - particularly men staying overnight.

Why are you still trying to Plan A your WW and meet her ENs? That should have stopped long ago. Focus on your legal issues and your children and forget about your WW other than avoiding AO and DJs...not for marital recovery but because you don't want to give her any ammo against you.

I would move out of the bedroom. Can your youngest boys bunk together and you take one of their beds? If not, sleep on the couch and don't hide it from your kids either. SF with this woman would be out the window too.

Back later...

Yes. You are probably right. She has shown no sign of wanting to do the work for recovery. She is dead set on being the victim. Now she is insinuating I am having an affair and have had sex with lots of women during our marriage. That's nuts. But hard for me to defend myself because it never happened.

You can't prove a negative. I believe that's one of the first established facts in the known universe.

Has she offered any proof, however, to her claim? Do the kids know that it's not polite to make accusations unless you're sure of the facts? Do your kids understand the devastating effects that unfounded rumors can have on someone's life? Have you talked with the kids about living in truth and honesty, and how unhappy people get when they shroud their lives in lies and false claims?

How are you difending yourself and your honor, SBT? Have you called everyone you know to let them know that you indeed have been faithful and tried your best to be a good father and husband? Would any of them be willing to approach your wife and ask them for proof of her statements?

Have you countered her calims with an offer of unlimited Extraordinary Precautions? [The MB way to approach a complaint by a spouse is to make them feel safe again...is she interested in that?]

Perhaps people in your life would find it interesting that in spite of your offer to be accountable for every minute of the day, your wife would rather hurl ugly accusations than actually pursue the truth?

I know I keep saying this, but you are going to be so much better off with her out of your life. She sounds like she has serious psychosocial issues, based on your posts. I still think you're having trouble seeing the forest due to the tree that keeps beating you with it's limbs.

Also, to repeat: the truth will prevail. Good behavior will be rewarded. Eliminating LB's and developing boundaries will be the example to set for the kids; and it sounds like they desperately need a good example.

opt

Wow. That's why I like this place.

No. I haven't approached the kids about these things. I need to do it in a way that doesn't make me look guilty. I think I will just talk to them about the importance of being honest. Something I have done anyway but maybe it's time for a refresher.

I don't want to say "mom has been saying this and it's not true". That's what she did when I expose her A. I refused to bring the kids into it any more by showing them the proof (texts, etc). I just won't do that to them. She has told them she didn't drink either. But I have hundreds of pictures of bottles hidden in the house from last year. I could have shown those to my kids but didn't. She told them she only drank when we drank together.

She has carved a pretty big dividing line between my friends and hers. My friends would never believe I had an A. Her friends would never believe me if I told them that. They support her 100%.

What's hard to take it the alliance she creates between herself and the kids. Especially my oldest. If you look back in my thread you will see that she was exposed to everything. Even to the point that she called the OM "papa". It made me sick. Now she supports her mom 100% and is helping spread her moms message to the other kids.

It would also be a lot easier if she were like this all the time. She seems to flip back and forth between the loving, caring person I married and this monster trying to screw me. She is always super loving to the kids (in a manipulative kind of way).

I like the idea of countering it with an offer of unlimited exaordinary precautions. I would think that may have an impact even on her allies.

That's a common accusation.
After exposure my wife accused me of having an affair with her affair partners wife! (I had never met the lady but she was giving me some info)

I wouldn't move out of the bedroom though. I didn't in fact I started sleeping in the nude LOL. Just make sure you keep a recorder on at all times to protect against any rape allegations (also very common)

You mention hidden alcohol bottles ?

Are you seeking full custody of your kids?

Is she an alcoholic?

So you attend AlAnon meetings?

Has a Guardian ad Litem been appointed to represent the children?

Yes. Over the course of 2011 I found vodka bottles hidden around the house. I confronted her and she stopped hiding them in the house and hid them in an office room she had access to. When she found out I knew about that she stopped hiding them there. I honestly don't know if she is still drinking.


I'm seeking 50/50 after she completes a treatment program.


I believe she was drinking heavily, hiding it and mixing it with prescription drugs. I believe she did this to cope with her perceived problems with the marriage. I believe these are all signs she had a problem. I don't know if she is still drinking.


I did for about a year. I stopped going because the group was dying and alternative groups didn't work in my schedule.


No. I don't know anything about this.

First, your wife is an alcoholic and you need to seek FULL custody.
Alcoholism is a progressive disease. And your statement that you don know I she is still drinking tells me that she is.

Do you want her kids around drunks? You need to protect them from her self destructive behavior.

I strongly encourage you to tell your attorney that you want a Guardian ad Litem appointed for your kids. The judge relies on the report of the ad Litem when making custody decisions.

And you really need to attend AlAnon. The fact that you are seeking to allow you kids to be raised by a drunk 50% of the time shows that you are in your own cloud.

It's just the MB way to approach it. Regardless of the situation you're in, it's how healthy couples resolve things like insecurities. Just because you're not a healthy couple doesn't mean you can't implement the strategies, in fact it's even more necessary.


You said you were being accused of having an affair. Certainly your kids are aware of these accusations. To what extent they are aware is absolutely your right to know, and your responsibility to find out. "Hey Johnny, I'm concerned about some things that have been said about me. What have you heard? Don't worry, you're not going to get anyone in trouble." There are other ways to get into the conversation. Personally I'd have a family meeting, I think it's that serious. I'd ask my wife, in front of everyone, to tell me face to face if she thinks I'm being unfaithful and then to produce the proof. Even in the judicial system a person has a right to face their accuser.
If my WW had asked me to do this I would have gladly done so as I KNEW she was being unfaithful and I would have been very truthful about what I knew and what I didn't know. Facts are facts and kids thrive on the truth, and suffer from half-truths, shrouded beliefs, and outright lies.

Again, in age appropriate ways, it's more important that kids get the real story than get jerked around with lies. I know what you're saying and I had the same reluctance. In retrospect I don't think it would have been harmful to expose more of the truth to them than I did. They will NOT love their mother less, I can promise you that; I truly believe that bond is unbreakable. They may be upset, but that's a good thing - accountability is what that would teach them. They certainly arent' learning anything about accountability with the current approach.

I agree with HDW above, also. You're going to fight the full custody/unfit drunk pill-popping mother fight eventually anyway. It's essential to start it now.

opt

Interestingly I'm fighting against a custody evaluator who called her a "functioning alcoholic" then granted her a parenting schedule that was as close to sole custody as she could get and still call it "joint"

Okay.
I understand you have a custody evaluator.
Your kids needs a Guardian ad Litem ASAP

I asked me atty about gardian ad litem. Awaiting an answer.

This might seem like a stupid question but is it possible for someone to drink heavily for years and then stop and NOT be an alcoholic and be perfectly safe for the kids without going to treatment?

No.
The exception may be a college kid partying and drinking.
But your wife was hiding bottles. Does she use breath freshened too?

It's impossible for her to stop without treatment. The First Step is to acknowledge that one is powerless over alcohol.

Your wife is probably still drinking. Just better at hiding the bottles.
Another tool you can consider is;

Ask your atty to require drug and alcohol testing ( does she smoke dope?)

Alcoholism is a progressive disease. She has to hit bottom before she starts to rise, if ever

Also, one addiction can lead to another and can lead to another..... Her addictive personality, and the problems that it brings will harm the children. She will not be able to be truly present for them to meet their emotional needs. She will not be able to connect and bond with them while she is partaking in her addiction(s). The "fix" is the most important thing to addicts - whatever that may be, and she will sacriice everything for it. She won't say that, but that is how it is.

SBT, your question is not stupid at all.
I stopped drinking around 2 years ago. Stopped cold. No AA, not really anything. I just decided that I didn't need it in my life while I was going through a divorce/trying to save my marriage. There was also an indcident involving me using very poor judgement and putting my kids at risk. I had begun drinking for different reasons than before (not that the other reasons were commendable).

Anyway. To give make my point I'll tell you that my drinking wasn't "problematic" by most standards. I didn't hide bottles. I didn't beat my wife or kids. I didn't stay out all night. I just enjoyed Harpoon and Sam Adams like most other people in today's society. I would have a couple after work and on bowling night, and out for dinner.

Here's the thing: when I quite for good it was a BIG DEAL. I was very willing to share the news with people (although most didn't understand). I would go to parties and have to explain "I quit that...". I told my kids I wasn't drinking anymore. I talked aobut it with my STBXW. Let me tell you something, for most people who drink, cutting it out of your life is a big major adjustment. It does't go un-noticed. Not by the drinker or anyone around them.

I think, from what you've posted here, that it is HIGHLY unlikely that your ww has stopped drinking.

I second all the others in the above discussion. I would not back down to this lady and her nasty attorney, no matter how much they have convinced you that it is in your best interest to roll over and take it quietly.

Believe in the truth. The truth will prevail.

opt

Any update?

Yes. I'll update later tonight.

Therein lies my biggest problem with her current behavior. I know she is still drinking socially. And she had admitted to drinking so much she couldn't drive home about a month ago. However, she will claim it's just social drinking and there is nothing wrong with that. The problem I have is that she doesn't admit to ever having a problem. She denies all of it. The denial sounds to me like she isnt in any kind of lasting recovery.

Btw, I also believe her "social" drinking is part of the reason she has poor boundaries with men. She can't/doesn't control it while drinking. Even casually.

More later...

Your marriage to an alcoholic has made you sick.
Did you ask for a Guardian ad Litem for your children?

I lived with a codependent wife for years. She was codependent on her alcoholic mother and mentally Ill. I became sick during 10 years of marriage.
Everyone (neighbors, others) saw problems. I didn't.

AlAnon can help you recover from your wife's alcoholism.

But your children need outside perspective and a Guardian Ad Litem can provide that

I asked. I didn't get an answer. I'll ask again tomorrow.

I'm interested to know why you think I am sick. I agree I have struggled with codependent behaviors. However, I think I see it all for what it is. I think she needs help. I'm also trying to navigate a legal process where I am at a disadvantage. She is an expert at living two lives. Nobody, besides me, saw or noticed her drinking.

I strongly encourage you to attend an AlAnon meeting.

I have on and off. I haven't for a few months. I'll go back.

This is from before. Looks like you have a trial in the next couple of weeks.
Will there be a separation agreement involved with this trial?
Since we MB never recommends "leaving" but Plan B requires you not subject yourself to the abuse of lying and cheating and alcoholism, a legal SEPARATION agreement, sanctified by the courts would be a very good first step in your recovery from this situation.

If you get the separation agreement, you can go Plan B and have a chance at some clarity.

opt

Yes. I'd imagine the trial would determine final parenting time schedules and we will be in separate homes. I intend to plan B at that time for my own benefit. I recognize how unhealthy this situation is but I also have no way out of it right now. I have no legal grounds to leave and take my kids and I dont trust her with them for extended periods...more than the time I am at work during the day.

So, after the trial you will have the "legal grounds" you're looking for.

To make sure you take advantage of this situation, get a few things established ahead of time. For instance, make sure your attorney and hers are aware that you have no intention of communicating with her directly but will do so via a trusted friend. There will be no verbal interaction between you and your wife, emails will be filtered through the friend and you will have your phone number changed -- if there is an emergency, she can contact your intermediary and they will contact you directly.

This is not because you are trying to be vindictive or mean. Let everyone know that it is simply too painful and destructive for you to continue to be in contact with her. Every time you see her or hear her voice it sets back your recovery by reminding you of the infidelity, the dishonesty, the alcoholism, the intimidation. Tell everyone the truth: you're a broken man and in order to restore yourself you have got to eliminate the presence of your aggressor.

I'm hoping you can heal, SBT. I'm hoping you can gain some objectivity. And I'm hoping you can take some time for yourself and your children to put in place the principles you've learned here including avoiding LB's (with your kids and with everyone in your life, including yourself). And then establishing some boundaries. [If you haven't read that book yet, it would be job #1 once you move out -- Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend].

I would also push for the LONGEST interim period you can get if you have any hope of recovering your marriage. If there is a "waiting period" before the divorce becomes final, see if you can get your attorney to get the longest one possible. This will allow your ex more time to find out the grass is not greener on the other side of the fence. She might just decide to become a good person worthy of your love in that time period, but it won't happen over night.

opt

I forgot she was living with you.
I would politely ask her to leave the bed.
And I hope you have an audio recorder on you at all times?

Are you in an active plan A?

Yes, I've been in plan A for almost 3 years. Its been a struggle and we have had our moments where LBs have happened. But for the most part I am pleasant, kind, loving. Or we just avoid each other. She doesn't see it that way sometimes. She is still angry about the exposure and I am honest with her about my concerns about drugs, alcohol and men. Her response to that is anger and sometimes I shutdown for a bit after her outbursts. Sometimes I've become sarcastic in return. But not recently. Ive also said in my D paperwork that I don't believe she is fit to have custody. That incites her anger also. �I think for the most part my presence in the house drives her crazy. She mostly ignores me and does her own thing. She will answer a question when asked but really has no interest in discussions with me. I've tried. None of this really matters anymore. �I'm just going to be as loving as possible until the D is final and then go completely dark.� She can be extremely caring and loving. But none of it is directed towards me.

And there are days like today where we just tolerate each other. Each hoping this gets over as soon as possible.

Do you still have sex?

See, this is not marriage. Not around here.

One person logs a complaint in a respectful way and the other person respects it and does what they can to make the complainer feel more safe and comfortable. That's love. It's action and response. It's Care.

You're ww has manipulated you and controlled you with the grand-daddy of them all: the Selfish Demand. She has managed to become an expert at getting you to do exactly what she wants without you actually wanting to do it (e.g. shutting up and not complaining anymore).
That's my take from keeping track of your thread for a while. I am not saying you're perfect sbt. None of us are. I just feel she has the upper hand in this relationship like nothing I've ever seen and it just appears to be so harmful to you and your kids, I'm compelled to voice my opinion. I hate to think of another generation of kids growing up thinking it's okay to treat their spouse like yours treats you.

I don't know how much you know about MB principles. It's hard to tell from your posts. I hope being out of this toxic environment affords you time to learn and understand things at a new level so you can then understand more about how you (and your family) got to this point.

Goal: not ever gettng into a situation like this again.

*glad you changed your thread title back to it's original.
opt

I know quite a bit about MB principles. I've read the books. Early in the whole mess we did several phone sessions with Steve. We each assessed our emotional needs and love busters. When things started to get tough, she quit. In retrospect, the timing was wrong. She was still active in A and was mixing Vicodin and alcohol (I didn't know that at the time). We had no shot.

She does treat me very poorly. She has for years. You've identified one of my biggest fears in all of this. That my kids grow up thinking its ok to treat your spouse that way.

To be fair, I have had a hard time taking her complaints seriously. I try but in the back of my mind I find myself thinking "really? You are upset at me because you think Ive had an affair?". There have been times I haven't been able to keep a straight face. Then I hear how I dismiss her feelings. I honestly try not to but accusing me of an affair is about as crazy as it gets. To me it sounds like projection.

And in the larger picture none of that matters because there is something else in the way. I believe she has addiction/dependency issues. She doesn't believe that to be true and takes great offense to any discussion about it.

See, this is what concerns me about you SBT. We've suggested ways to deal with this in an MB way before and it seems to get right by you. I know you're an intelligent fellow, but it appears to me that you are simply so downtrodden you can't follow up on some basic ideas. Again, this is why I'm hoping you can get out of that environment and get another perspective, and start rebuilding yourself from the ground up.
The idea above would be that you can lovingly extend to your ww the offer of making her feel safe in the relationship by enforcing Extraodinary Precautions on yourself. You have nothing to hide, so let her follow you around. Give her all your passwords. Account for every minute; call, text and talk to other people in your lives throughout the day. "I know you think I've had an affair. While I assure you nothing could be further from the truth, I understand that somehow I'm making you uncomfortable and as your husband, the last thing I want to be is a source of discomfort for you. Please tell me how I can make you feel more secure in our relationship and lets work on this together. I want to have a relationship with you better than either of us ever dreamed possible." --- etc.

AS for past affairs (if that is the accusation), I believe the only way to deal with that is a polygraph. If you have nothing to hide, then you're all set. If you do, now's the time to get it out on the table.

opt

I don't know what it's like to live with an addicted person. However, I don't believe it's wise to let someone else's addictions influence your conviction to do something if you know it's the right thing to do.

IOW, having something "in the way" should be for the person with the addiction. It doesn't have to change the way you behave. Right?
She's addicted to something, okay, fine. I'm still going to conduct myself with integrity and grace.

I have some experience with alcoholism. My latest observation with these types of issues is that the devil has done a very very sneaky thing: he has made it so the people who are hurt most by deviant behavior (addictions, criminal behavior, promiscuity, pornography) are not the ones who are engaging in the deviant behavior. It's his greatest accomplishment in my view.

opt

Dr. Harley has said that if there are addictions, his program doesn't work. It's the first thing that has to go. I'm sorry you ran into the juggernaut.

Your kids are going to be okay, because when you get yourself in a place where you can put yourself back together, they are going to have someone in their lives with integrity, strength, vitality, truth and honesty, happiness, faith, and tremendous insight. They need structure and consistency more than anything; they are not getting that from your ww and I believe you can only provide so much of it at this time. The contrast will be obvious in a few months and continue to get stronger as the months pass into years.

When they grow up they will have a choice to make: do I want to be like Mommy or do I want to be like Daddy? 'Mommy's life seemed like so much fun -- drinking, drugs, "friends" galore. But she never seemed that happy and there was always so much drama and instability. Dad might have been boring in contrast, but at least he seems happy and put together.'
The choice will be easy. They will follow your path.

opt

I've tried this. Several times. She has no interest. I've offered that we both employ EPs. Her response has been that she doesn't want to be treated like a two year old and that I should trust her. When I suggest I shouldn't trust her she she says something like "there you go always thinking the worst about me". Remember that she now denies most parts of the A. She claims she just talked to him too much. She also said that the guys she talks to are just friends and I can't tell her who her friends should be. This then deteriorates into how controlling I am. To be clear, Ive never told her she couldn't have those friends. Ive said that it's best for our marriage that she doesn't.

As for the polygraph. I hadnt thought of that. That's an interesting idea. I may look into it just to clear up any doubt. I have nothing to hide.

It's unfortunately too late for most of this. I can't give her my passwords, etc. because we are in the middle of a legal battle over our parenting time, money, etc. I've said this since she filed and said she didn't want it. If she seriously doesn't want it then she needs to stop it. I can't see a way to rebuild trust when our attorneys are going at it. Your cant put a relationship and family back together while you are ripping it apart. At least I can't see how.

Here you go.
Polygraph Testing

I agree and disagree with opt.
I agree that YOU are responsible for your conduct and actions.

I would NOT give her any email passwords etc during divorce. Divorce is war. Generals do not think with emotions.

You need to be healed from living with an addict. We receive healing through the AlAnon program and working the 12 steps. The MB Plan A will not win over an addict nor will anything else. Alcoholism is a progressive disease and you need to protect yourself and your kids from her behaviors.

I encourage you to read a daily devotional, One Day at a Time in AlAnon. I read it daily for clarity

Also.
Take some parenting classes.
I took some from my county free of charge.
You n�e to fight for full custody and have a plan on how to be a custodial parent.

Regarding the legal fees, a Guardian a litem can save you lots of money.
A judge will follow the recommendation of the GAL.

Thanks. I used to read the Alanon blue book. I'll dig it out and start again.

Do NOT give out passwords or do a polygraph!

That's giving ammunition to the enemy! That would be really stupid! You are in divorce proceedings!

Im not giving her my passwords unless it is part of recovery and the D is off. I may talk to my atty about a polygraph for me if it may help my case. I wouldn't do it without my attys approval.

SBT, I think you got my point. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to hide.

Of course you wouldn't give your legal adversary access to your ammunition or legal documents needed to defend your position. If she wants you to do a poly, then she will clearly be willing to do one as well...

I don't believe a polygraph is admissible in court anyway. The offer is to make the point that you don't like being called a liar and a cheating scumbag without any evidence.

I think in this country the burden of proof is still with the accuser. As the accused, I should think the one pointing the finger would be responsible for paying for a polygraph test and then taking one themselves. In fact, I would demand it.
-- but she won't because she knows there would be four more fingers pointing back at her.

opt

I have nothing to hide.

SBT

DO NOT and I repeat DO NOT submit yourself to volunteer for any poly in the situation you are in.

That would be the perfect ammo for CPS-Human Services or whoever is invoved in your case through your WW to present "LOADED" questions that could be used against you with custody.

You will open yourself to all kinds of twisted questions that you may be pefectly innocent of but it will be percieved there is wrong doing in the past.

EXample: When did you stop abusing your children?

SBT: I did not abuse my children.

Examiner: Well when did you stop?

You could be seen as not cooperating or hiding something with this type of questioning. DO NOT GO THERE!!!

Percieved wrongs your WW has thrown at you will be twisted and used against you.

CPS or Human Services, and your WW are not going to help you at this point. If there is dirt they can drag out and even if it is only percieved and even if it is not ethical they will in a twisted fashion use your answers and use it agaianst you.

You will be greatly diminishing your chances for custody. Don't trust any of the three mentioned above to be your ally in this mess.

A Gaurdian would be the best option because you would be presenting your real life everyday interactions with the children. It may cost a few bucks but so does dragging this out with attorneys. Your WW would also need to have interaction with the GAL.

The GAL reports facts directly to the courts. Your really only going to get one good shot at this and time is winding down. Really consider the GAL.

I think HDW knows about this. Hopefuly he will also comment.

ETA:
In my brothers case the GAL taped exhanges at the GF's house unknown to either party as the GF complained my brother was harrassing her. All the GAL saw and taped was pulling up on the street-his DD getting out and going up to the house-when the door opened-Brother got back in his car and left. Where was the harrassing? My mom also sat in the back seat of the car unseen on every exchange. GF was confronted with the tape after she complained with specific dates. Took away a lot of her credibility with the court.

If you are such a danger to the safety of your own children why are you still in that house? In our state you would have been removed a long time ago if there was evidence to make anything stick.

nESRE

There is no evidence. Because nothing has ever happened.

I have a different question today. I checked our cell phone bill and she is texting a new guy in the middle of the night. Do I expose/confront or just move on with D and forget about it?

That all depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

I'll admit I have been hopeful that somehow, with a separation and some time and perhaps your ww would hit rock bottom and then pull her head out and seek treatment and maybe someday realize the grass is not greener on the other side of the text message.

But in the meantime you have a very real divorce to deal with and a custody battle to win. So far and at this point, your ww seems to have literally managed to commandier "all the cards." It's like you're playing poker with 1 card against 5.

It's confusing to answer a question like that for you because you haven't given us a lot of details about what you are after, just tending to give updates about your ww's latest diabolical action. As far as I know you're still sleeping in the same bed.

It seems to me that you have a classic situation where your lawyers are both taking advantage of your wife's vitriol and your being overwhelmed/incapacitated by your wife's very successful intimidation of you and domination of the situation. To me, they are the only ones who are going to win.

If this helps - "exposure" (not the best name in my view) is used to request assistance from friends and loved ones in your life who may be able to use their influence to get the WS to end their affair. It also serves to shed light onto a clandestine activity where darkness tends to be part of the allure.

Not saying anything about something you're aware of is, in my view, tacitly agreeing to the activity and essentially makes you an accomplis in the crime. This would be unacceptable in a MB marriage. However, you don't have a MB marriage; you're in an wayward/divorce situation. Legally, you may have to treat the information differently in interest of your self and your children.

As a 43 year old divorced male, I will admit I think it's best for the kids to try to restore/repair/rebuild a broken marriage. Ultimately, divorce is not desirable compared with loving marriage. I think you have a tremendous amount of work to do to restore your marriage, and unfortunately most of that work seems to lie in the court of your wife in terms of recovering from substance abuse and everything that comes along with an unhealthy lifestyle. Which leaves you with the unenviable task of being colosally patient (something I did not have), if you have any hopes of recovering the marriage.

Or their could be some miracle.

Your situation, because of the prodigious debt you seem to be racking up is untenable: work incessantly at recovering a shattered marriage with someone who is by all accounts insane (whether naturally or due to chemicals...or both), with only slim odds of success.
Or fight for a decent divorce settlement with money you don't have, building debt you probably will never recover from.

This is why I believe the only thing you have left is to live your life everyday striving for truth and integrity.

opt

My desire is for my family to remain together and WW and I recover from the disaster. I would like her to get some help for her chemical issues (either past or present) and somehow have her realize her behaviors with men undermine what she says she wants (our family) and for her to get some help there to.

Then I'd like for the two of us to rebuild a marriage the way it should have been the first time.

I don't see how any of that is possible but that's what I want.

And I don't know what the texts say. If I do something she will just say he is a friend and the texts are no big deal. I have know way to prove otherwise.

Maybe I need to just forget about it and move on. We are getting divorced.

I think you should stop focusing on your wife and her drunken slutty ways and focus on getting custody of your kids.
Has a Guardian Ad Litem been requested?

I talk to my atty today about it. My WW doesn't drink during the day anymore that I'm aware of. I just don't trust that she will stay that way in the case of divorce when I can't be there in the evenings after separation. How will GAL help? I'm not dismissing the idea Im just trying to learn.

The GAL provides an independent 3rd party report to the Court.
This is especially important in cases of addictions, mental illnesses or abuse/ neglect.
The GAL represents the best interests of the kids.

Your kids need a GAL.

Sbt,
I have FULL custody of my kids because I requested a GAL.
My atty told me that without the GAL I would have been a weekend dad.

What you have going for your case is that your wife is already called a "functioning alcoholic" by the custody evaluator.

That is GOOD for your case. A good building block for a GAL.

Also for your case start GOING TO AlAnon. Tell the custody evaluator and the GAL you have been going to AlAnon for support. They will automatically think, "is the wife going to AA?"

And get a folder assembled with the following:
Any legal problems involving alcohol
Any pictures (Facebook is a good source) of wife drunk.
Receipts from alcohol purchases. If bought at a grocery store, get records o purchases made with the frequent shopper loyalty card.

If she has a favorite booze store stake it out, find out how much she is drinking.

The thing with drunks is they think they are genius and can hide their addictions. She will fall apart under scrutiny.
Have the neighbors seen her drunk with the kids? Subpeanae them for statements.

The GAL may cost a couple thousand. But the GAL will do more work for your kids than your attorney will.
If you have to place all your money on one horse, bet on the GAL

SBT,
I don't think you'll be able to accomplish putting your marriage back together until your wife hits rock bottom with all her extracurricular activities. This is probably going to happen AFTER the Divorce proceedings have taken place, a custody arrangement is made and adhered to, and a Solid Plan B is in effect, and Separation; perhaps even after the divorce is final.

At this point I agree with the posters above who feel it's time to take care of SBT and get down and dirty with the divorce fight. That in itself may be the first step toward your STBX waking up to the reality that she has made for herself.

You have some good folks here who understand the divorce process way better than I do, so I hope you'll listen to them and take their advice.

I'm going to step back for now and be more of a cheerleader, and less of a coach (not that I look good with pom-poms, but if that will help you, then I'm all for it).

Please fight hard for your kids and take care of yourself. Someone has to and that most certainly is not going to be your ww.

I still say she is poised to take EVERYTHING from you. Therefore you have NOTHING to lose. Go.

opt

Next question. What do you tell the kids about D and reasons for it? Our kids largely don't know. The older ones do. The younger ones not at all. The middle one kinda gets it but doesn't truly understand what's going to happen.

SBT

Age appropriate and only the truth.

ML on page one posted Dr. Harleys beliefs with quotes. Read this again. Now some time has passed and the alchohol/vicodin is questionable as being active right now so you will have to explain in past tense. Also A? Is that active or dead? Again age appropriate and truth.

Your WW filed for the D. Explain how you wanted to keep the family together and WW filed for the D. The truth. See firm belief paragraph later.

WW's and active ? addicts are the most refined gaslighters. They are the masters at manipulation and lies. Your alien WW (she is not the wife you married) has managed to twist this so none of this is her fault at all.


My WW went so far with my then DD15 or so "teaching" her to keep secrets. Trade offs and such. You can do this-just don't let your dad find out. I won't tell him either. This went back and forth (you don't tell on me-I won't tell on you)and still does today. That is why I am still in PLB with my alchoholic XWW almost a year and a half after the D. They still both try to drag me into the crap that goes along with being WW and addict.

It was only when I found a letter my DD wrote to her mom that I found this out.

I keep in contact-do things together with my DD now 19 but I do not let her drag me back into their crap hole that they built together. I keep my relationship with my DD seperate and have 0 contact with the WW.

I filed when I finally got to the point where everything was being sucked out of me. About all that was left was my sanity and some days I doubted that. I was trying to fill a black hole. That can't be done.

All you can do for now is hang on and know an end will come soon. Be the best SBT for yourself you can be and the benifits will shower your children. You can not control your WW or choices she makes. You can only control you.


Probably one of best suggestions early on:

PB posted to you about stating your beliefs on 1/31. Go back and read the posts. There is a lot of power in using the firm belief statements she talked about. She gave several excellant examples and posted links to help.

Be like a broken record with these with all you deal with.

Have you implemented this into your every day communication with people?

Don't Plan A an addict. It only rewards bad behavior. Let them face the consequeneces of their own behavior and keep your side of the street clean. You stated you were in Plan A for three years. What consequences did your WW ever have to face?

Like HDW and I (and others early in your thread Page 10 5/18 by Johnstwin)

GET A GAL!
They communicate/report directly with the court.

nESRE

My children (ages 5,8,9) frequently ask me why I divorced mommy.
I tell them: "I divorced mommy because mommy loves another man more than me and when you are married that is against the rules"

Did you request a GAL?

Any update on the GAL?
What measures are you taking to protect your kids from their alcoholic mother?

SBT,
I've been thinking about your court date this week. Perhaps it's today- wishing you great luck and success.

I am confident that this is your opportunity to get free from the WW and start seeing things from a different perspective. It will take time, but I believe it starts now.

Do you like rock? Check out 3DaysGrace - X. It will help you get some frustration out.

opt

What's transpired SBT?
Thinking of you lately.
opt

I'm afraid that he caved into her demands, and did not ask for a GAL for his kids.
I hope they aren't in the care and custody of their drunk mom

I think we all have similar fears.

I also maintain that MB can be a difficult program to get under your belt. The concepts can take months or years to master and the forums are a good place to voice concerns or get feedback.

SBT I hope the court proceedings have given you a chance to escape the environment and perhaps get a different view of the overall situation you and your children (and your now-exww) were in.

You could then start putting things back together in a healthful way for you and your family.

opt

The thing about divorce is that it war.
War against someone you love or once loved.
I myself was a mostly passive spouse in my own marriage.
I was fighting for 50-50 custody BUT the custody evaluator, 1 day after interviewing my wife, recommended I receive immediate full custody and my wife supervised visitation.

Now that alone is very telling of how sick I was. I was unable to see how sick my wife was. Insanity was the norm.

SBT is in a similar situation. His wife is a drunk. But he makes excuses for her alcoholism and associated behaviors. He is sick and cannot see the real picture.

That's why a GAL in this case would have been so important for the children.

Maybe but I don't think SBT is making excuses for his wife; I think he's a man who's been handed a rough hand by his adulterous spouse and has been forced to endure his wife's abuse for way too long by a court system that will punish him if he leaves. I see him shutting down based on the last few posts.

I hope he's ok, the divorce is over and he's gotten out.

I'm back. I've been preparing for court - which was put off until November because she hadn't compiled with ANYTHING so we couldn't prepare. We filed a motion to compel. That is complete and now she is court ordered to comply.

I talked to my attorney about a GAL. We haven't done it. My wife is alone with the kids only during the day until mid-afternoon. I am around after that. If a GAL were there during the day I don't think they would find any evidence of drinking. I DO know she went out the other night and came home drunk. I was home - as I am every afternoon/night. I will push on the GAL issue again.

I have one of the most bizarre quotes for you I have ever heard. Proof there is not room for a marriage relationship with my STBXW. The other night she was trying to start an argument. I resisted but I eventually brought up her A as a major reason our relationship broke down. Her response...sit down for this one... "I can't help it I'm attractive." Then she went on to say "Do you know how many times I've had offers to have sex with other men and how many times I actually did it?" I was stunned and didn't know what to say. Then she said "I can't control with these guys do and say." I walked away.

I'll update more. I apologize for disappearing for a while. My journey is not over. I am battling as best as I can for my kids and my family.

I also have some specific questions about the court process that I could use some help with regarding evidence collected over the last couple years.

BTW, HDW, I think you are right. My head is starting to clear. I am starting to see how crazy this whole situation is and how I couldn't see it before. I'm not all the way there yet. I know that because people like you and close friends of mine keep telling me the same thing.

SBT

Good to see an update from you. Kind of worried you fell off the deep side with being gone so long.

Glad to see you are fighting for the kids sake. They will always remember it. They may not show it right away but some day they will remember how Dad fought for them.

Have you ever read any of this?

Craziest thing to come out of a WayWards piehole

You may want to consider putting that in there. Some of the pure crap that spews out!

Keep up the good fight man. Good to hear from you.

nESRE

SBT, thanks for posting agian, I was wondering about you. I'm glad to hear you are continueing to fight for yourself and your family, and indirectly for your wife (with boundaries and by standing by your principles).

Definitely put those quotes in the thread nESRE attached. They are nice variations on the theme. I entered a few from my now-exww. Please keep in mind these may not be things she would say if she weren't under the influence of ETOH and her misguided hormones if she is continuing to be wayward in one way or another. My ex, several months after the divorce was final, admitted that she was "out of her mind" during the last year or two of our marriage and the months during the divorce. They really do become aliens. I was in that mode for some time early in my marriage as well, so I know it's true. Still, it hurts to hear those words coming out of the mouth of the person who was once your "true love."

I hope you are continueing to refrain from LB's, for you and your kid's sake. It takes tremendous restraint, faced with a diabolical, venom-spitting drunk possibly wayward stbx; but if you can refrain with her, you can do it with anyone, the rest of your life.

Over the summer, my son had a possible pneumothorax (punctured lung). My ex was amped up something fierce, like durign the 15 year marriage; trying to add all sorts of drama to the situation that really needed to be handled with calmness and logic. She tried to pull me into her level of anxiety with raising her voice (a trick that worked for 15 years, plus 5 before we were married). I resisted by lowering my voice and repeating that I was not going to tolerate being spoken to that way and that I would be happy to talk to her when she could be respectful and calm. The excuses came rolling in- "our son is in peril, I SHOULD be upset, this is serious, etc." (he was in the process of raking leaves at the time - perfectly fine). I stuck with my guns that there was no need for the yelling and voice raising, and please leave until you calm down and can be respectful.

It was not easy and I could feel myself being sucked down into the whirlpool over the drain which I had succumbed to for 15 years and have the holes in the walls to prove it.

Point: you mention you are getting clarity with separation (as I've said, the only way to see this thing objectively, IMO). With the clarity will come the strength to resist falling into the same wellpworn patterns. That has been my experience and I hope it will be yours as well.

Again, thanks for the update and I wish you the best of luck with your court fight/custody battle and continued recovery.

opt

To be clear. There has been no separation. Even today, her attorney threatened to file a motion for temp relief to get me out of the house - saying that things are becoming volatile and dangerous. Well, they are only "volatile and dangerous" because of her extreme anger. I have and will continue to refuse to leave. My kids should not be raised by a "functional" alcoholic. We continue to live together, sleep together, parent together, etc. I know its crazy but I'm starting to come out of it.

Do you have a VAR on your person? This is very dangerous and you need to be sure of it. If it's legal in your state.

What exactly is it that you need to do to protect yourself from her lies and from someone believing her lies so she can succeed at having you removed from the house? If her attorney files first, if it is the law in your state, you will legally HAVE to leave!!!

Loyalty has its boundaries, and this is it!!! Don't lose the war tyring to stand firm on your principles of sticking by your wife through thick and thin. She isn't looking out for you. She certainly isn't looking out for the kids.

File first or something!! That doesn't mean you have to go through with it. I honestly can't see why you would remain in the relationship with her as it is. It isn't honorable to you. It isn't good for the kids for her to see your marriage like this, or them seeing you allow her to treat you like this. At least protect yourself and your children until she has a fog break. You deserve better!

I have a VAR. There is a long story about that ill share sometime. Bottom line is yes...and she knows it.

Her atty is claiming there is and has been no "adverse impact" to the kids due to her chemical use.

Oh FFS...

Of course there's an adverse effect. Boy, she has a real winner for an attorney!

Well I'm going to have to prove it. It's not like I can point to a car accident caused by it or anything that obvious.

There are articles all over the internet that will support the obvious conclusion that an alcoholic parent adversely affects their children. Go online and print some of these articles. See if you can get them in front of the judge.

Check your local mental health professionals to see if they have contact information for a local advocate for children who is versed in the negative effects of an alcoholic parent. They may be willing to appear in court to support you before the judge.

You don't need a car accident to prove the damage of a functional alcoholic parent.

She's generally "happy mom" when she has something to drink. Kids like her better that way and I doubt even know what's going on.

Speaking as an adult child of a 'happy drunk' I can tell you that they most assuredly know when their mother "isn't herself". That's something that is very hard on kids - they need the security of a consistent parent.

Sbt,

Not sure where you are or what laws apply to you, but continuing to allow your kids to be around a functional drunk isn't going to look good when you are in the middle of the divorce. I suspect her attorney will say that she wasn't that bad otherwise you should have removed the kids from the house. It's typical for things to get turned around on you in situations like this.

At this point, I think it's safe to say that you need to get the kids and yourself out of there, but I also understand that you can't leave (I left my house because I couldn't be around her anymore, but it certainly wasn't the best move for my family or marriage) until after the divorce.

Here is a thought, what if you started collecting evidence of her drinking by looking at the credit card statement and recording the money spend on boos, as well as taking a picture of her with your phone when she takes a drink. If you can snap one or two with the kids in the picture even better. Once you have some hard evidence, take it to your attorney and try to file so that she has to leave.

Another option is to wait until she has been drinking and if she is dumb enough to get into the car I would immediately call the cops and report her as a drunk driver. A DUI would go a long way in your case. It might even be the thing that finally wakes her up to what her drinking will cost her. Up here DUI=1 day in jail. It has sobered many.

ak

She got a DUI a year ago. It didn't wake her up. She writes it off as a one time error in judgement. Her drinking now is hidden. She doesn't drink in the open.

Of course the atty says that. It is his job.
This is how it works: the judge wants to do what is BEST for the kids.
The judge doesn't care what your atty or her atty says. The judge cares about what the GAL says.
I have full custody of my 3 kids. Ive been through this. My wife fought for full custody.

As for alcoholism and her hiding the drinking, it is a progressive disease and won't be hidden for long.

I encourage you to attend an AlAnon meeting.
You need to understand alcoholism for your inner peace and this custody battle.

As for crazy quotes, my wife said "I'm going to have sex. Lots of sex with lots of men. I'm going to cover myself in condoms and have sex because I'm a woman"

I'm struggling. I'm not sure I have the strength to continue this fight. For years I have been able to confidently say that I wanted the end result to be an intact family for my kids. Increasing lately I have found myself wanting a normal relationship with someone else (no, there isn't anyone in particular - just the idea of a normal relationship with someone). Even just wanting to be alone and away from the constant issues of dealing with my wife's behaviors and addictions. I find myself saying to myself "I just want out".

I recognize this as my taker taking over but its happening more and more and I find it troubling.

Sbt - I understand how you feel very much. I lived with my WXW while she was going out and sleeping with whatever guy she could get her hands on. It was emotionally crippling and I understand just wanting to get away from that. Seeing and talking to her every day was awful. Your case is significantly worse.

Try to hang in there as best you can and live for getting to those court dates. Don't capitulate to the point where you lose your children just to escape your STBXW. That temporary relief is not worth the years you will punish yourself for giving up on the custody you and they deserve. Money is just a thing but your kiddos are infinitely more important. Hang in there buddy and keep posting.

Travis

You should get yourself a good physical hobby to deal with it, I think. It would help.

Running, or boxing, or something like that.

Well, I'm now only a couple weeks from trial. Papers and evidence are being traded and tension is high between us. I find myself second guessing everything. Every time I'm forced to comply with the divorce process she gets angry and I'm sure somehow blames me. Even though she filed and I'm forced to do this. I love my wife and hate this and find it difficult to sleep. I can't even tell you why I still feel this way. I have no reason to.

SBT! thanks for checking in and updating. I've been wondering about you!

It's going to be a long couple of weeks. I hope you can take care of yourself; better days are ahead.

There is strength in the truth and doing what's right, even if it takes time for it to reveal itself. You will come out the stronger for all of this if you remain true to your principles.

I wish you well, sbt.

opt

I went through this too.
Hang in there.
Do not trust your wife. She is the enemy in divorce.
Trust your attorney.
During this time work out, improve yourself.
Be relentless, like a shark in divorce. It's the fight of your life

Well it's over. 6 day trial. Ugly. I was portrayed as a controlling, abusive, absent father. Now it all comes down to what one person, the judge, believes.

Pulling for you.

Let us know what the outcome was.

I hope that you didn't allow yourself to be punching bag in the interests of Plan A.

Are you still living with the evil woman?

Yes. We are still living together. I won't leave our kids. Either will she. Therefor we wait for the judges ruling so we have a custody determination and schedule.

Any idea on when that ruling will take place?

30-90 days. Sad part is I still don't want this.

30-90 days. There is a lot that can happen in 30 days, whether it be for the good or for the further deterioration of the situation.

What are your thoughts on giving the Marriage Builders program another try?

opt

I don't know how to do that. I believe she has a least a drinking problem and possibly and drug problem on top of that. I can't plan B because we don't have a custody arrangement. I have been in and out of plan A for three years, while she has has multiple boyfriends in addition the the possible drugs and alcohol. Not to mention the divorce trial.

What was the outcome?
Who has custody?
Did you expose her drug and alcohol addictions?
Did te children have a Guardian ad litem?

If she's an addict the best thing you could do for yourself is visit a local AlAnon meeting

He said it will be 30-90 before they get a ruling.

30-90 days before we know anything. There is no temporary custody arrangement. We still all live in the same house.

I exposed the drugs and alcohol as best as I could. They tried to discredit everything. "You poured out the vodka before taking pictures", "You were invading her privacy" (a shot at investigating As by the way), "She couldn't drink that much and still function", "You can't prove those liquor store purchases were hers" and on and on and on.

I've been to alanon and will go back.

Alcoholism is a progressive disease.
She WILL get worse.
So keep that in mind. No matter what happens this round,
She WILL get worse.
You just need to ensure you are always there for your kids

3 posts up from yours he said this.

As much as the law will allow me. She is fighting for full legal and full physical custody and an extremely limited schedule for me (4 days per month). And may have a shot at it.

You live with her. Does the subject of the divorce ever come up in conversation? Does she share with you her feelings? Is there any indication of her mentality on removing you from the family equation (e.g. the 4 days/month edict)? Would she share with you what it would take for her to compromise on this stance? (perhaps she just wants a bigger CS check -- maybe you could come up with some deal that would be attractive to her).

--The lawyers are talking, obviously, and doing their best to bankrupt you both; evidently in the interest of their OWN kids, but not so much in the interest of YOUR kids. This does not prohibit YOU from talking to each other does it?

One more question: you have been unable to move (ie Plan B, legal separation) partly for financial reasons; are you folks planning to live together after you divorce? Do you have a plan for where you will go? Apparently she doesn't want you in the home, if she only wants you to see the kids 4 days per month...

By the way? Why has legal separation not been discussed yet? Or custody arrangements? This would have protected you from accusations of abandonment, and allowed you to start some sort of Plan B and get away from this dreadful situation.

I wonder what Dr. Harley would say about all this. Would you be willing to run it by them in an email? I'm certain they would answer, and that may give you some fresh ideas.

--a couple weeks ago Dr. Harley pointed out that stress (like the kind you're under, SBT) limits one's ability to be creative and problem solve effectively. You seem to be at your wit's end. I encourage you to reach out and get some more help.

opt

Legal separation would mean I leave my kids overnight with an alcoholic. I was not willing to do that. I have not voluntarily left her alone with the kids overnight in three years.

Dr Harley would probably encourage him to plan A even after divorce until the kids are old enough to decide where to live.

I'm not sure I;m capable of that. My plan right now is to go completely dark as soon as the D is final and custody is determined. I can't spend the rest of my life being pulled into her drama. My youngest is 4.

Sbt,
I've had two neighbor kids from alcoholic homes that have basically part time lived with us. I fed them dinner nearly every night because their parents only gave them boxes of cereal to self feed themselves. I took them to church, skating , the zoo....wherever we went.
They have both moved to live with their grandmothers.
There will be people like myself that will step up and be there for your kids.

If you continue to plan A you will be in their lives to help protect them.

Your wife is downgrading to a worthless drunk whore an it won't be long until she starts bringing men home. A study from Iowa found that 85% of children in alcoholic homes have been sexually abused.

She will not care for your kids because she can't. She has a disease and refuses to seek help or even admit that she has a problem.

I think you should continue to plan A until they can decide where to live

I understand it's difficult.
That's where the AlAnon program can help you EMOTIONALLY detach from her while still in plan A.

The issue isn't her.
It's the safety of your kids.
If She gets full custody they will be messed up for life growing up with an alcoholic single mom. I know.... Because I just divorced someone that grew up like that!

This is what Dr Harley recommended to me.
As earlier suggested you may want to email him for guidance for your specific situation:

From Dr Harley:

�In your case, I would
consult an attorney to be sure that if you are divorced, your wife would not
have joint custody or even visitation rights as long as she is in a
relationship with a murderer, putting your children's safety at risk. �If
joint custody is a real possibility, I would stay in plan A indefinitely,
even after the divorce, until your children can legally decide for
themselves where they want to stay (usually at about 12-13 years old). �If
you are certain that you would have sole custody with only supervised
visitation for her, I'd suggest plan B.

If you will be sharing custody, over time, you may be able to win her back
in spite of her emotional disorder. �She is in love with a man who agrees
with everything she says and does. �In marriage, that can't happen.
Conflict is inevitable. �But those with emotional disorders usually can't
follow the POJA, and the expect to be catered to when they take a position
on any issue. �Ultimately, most of these people end up divorced because they
can't form a mutually caring partnership for very long. �The issue is not
whether you should follow the POJA -- it's whether she can do it. �I doubt
that she can. �But for the sake of your children, if she leaves the other
man, you may have to cater to her demands.

In the meantime take care of yourself.
Exercise, eat well, go to church and AlAnon.
I know what it's like to live with an alcoholic. Make sure you spend time around healthy people.

Bad logic.
You will be forced to leave them with her 24+ days/month once the D goes through. A LEGAL separation IN ADVANCE of the final ruling would have given you the opportnity to see just how damaging (or not) that arrangement would work, once it takes effect via the Divorce custody arrangement.

We can all speculate on what Dr. Harley would say, although JK's contributions especially the letter above are very helpful. But getting it straight from HIM takes no more effort than you've spent responding to us today.

As for your response. I would appreciate you answering the rest of my questions as well. You are doing yourself no great service by cherry-picking the subjects you address in your responses. My intention is to help you think about some things you may not already have (or, if you have already, then to explain them, which may give you more clarity for yourself). This because I believe your ability to be creative is hindered by the tremendous fear you are operating under. We would like to see you consider other alternatives. By really thinking about and answering our responses and wquestions, you MAY see things differently.

Seeing things differently and doing something different is crucial to you SBT. Your current methods and actions are NOT WORKING.

opt

why don't you take a minute and do a signature, so we can all be reminded of you situation? This thread is over a year old. It would be helpful to know at a glance the ages of your kids and some other bullet points.

We are not planning to live together after divorce. She wants me out. I have refused to go. I have asked the court to order the house sold and we both need to move because I can't afford the way we live now - much less two homes in the future. We may both need to find a new place to live.

Legal separation has not been discussed. She wouldn't discuss anything. To a large degree she pretended the D wasn't happening - we both did - until the trial. She would not agree to a custody arrangement that wasn't heavily in her favor - it was a non starter. The last thing she agreed to before trial was every other weekend and one night during the week for me - the statutory minimum.

I've tried. She has no interest in anything that doesn't leave her with the kids. She is very angry I am making an issue out of the drugs and alcohol. You are either her friend or her enemy and right now I am her enemy because I am threatening her time with the kids. That's how she sees it anyway. When you are her enemy she is very vindictive and hateful.

That's a cute term "non-starter." But really, everything is a "starter," isn't it? It's a place to start a discussion. We who use MB principles would start there and POJA the rest.
-This is what I mean by trying MB principles. Not just Plan B, Plan A, eliminate LB's, etc. I mean all of it. I mean immerse yourself in it. This thread is over a year old, and one thing I don't hear from your posts is which MB concepts you've tried, even for yourself. Which books you've read. Where you're having trouble implementing. Things you might have heard on the radio show that might apply. Have you written to Joyce and Bill. What you have taught the kids about the Lovebank, or disrespectful judgments.
Maybe you have done these things but it doesn't come out in your posts and you most certainly haven't made any discernable progress.

By the way. She will not survive statutory minimum. It is a plan to fail. This is what I mean by allowing the separation to take place prior to a formal ruling. If you can go back after a 3 month period and report on what happened, the court could make the decision that it is not a good situation for the kids. This presuming you are not fearing physical harm would befall them - if that's the case you should already have a protection order in place.

The lack of progress also compells me to suggest that the email to the radio show is imperative. This board (at least anything I've contributed) just doesn't seem to be helping you. Why don't you let Dr. Harley himself take a crack at your situation?

opt

SBT,
Any thoughts on contacting the Radio Show?
Over the past couple of days there have been many topics discussed. A few times I thought of you and your situation. I find the radio show helpful because even if the opic is not directly related to myself or a particular issue of mine, Dr. Harley will often say something within the context of the discussion that is VERY pertinent to me and my life. Sometimes it's even related to my past, which gives me perspective on what happened and why.

Hope to hear some good news from you soon.

Opt

I'm not ignoring you. I've been busy the last couple days.

One question I have is this. How can I POJA with someone who has shown no interest in being reasonable. Every time custody would come up I would try to find some middle ground that could be tolerable for both of us. She responds by moving to a more extreme position. She's now taken that tactic to the point she used it in court to support her argument that we couldn't make joint legal decisions, therefore she needs full legal custody.

I don't know how to POJA by myself. I think I've been very reasonable.

Regarding one of your question about what I've done with MB... I've read SAA, LB and FILSIL books by Harley. I've also used Steve Harley via phone counseling for several months back when trying to deal with her A and exposure, etc. Also tried to implement POJA, POUA, PORH. We also each filled out our EN assessment. Working with Steve we were to each discuss our needs with the other. It was at this point that she declared she was tired of Steve treating her like she was in grade school and stopped working on these things with me. Independently I've tried to eliminate LBs as much as possible and make LB deposits. I found that difficult when she had told me she was completed "closed off to me" and me "being home" is considered a LB by her.

What do you want?
So you want to eventually win her back?

What do I want? I want my kids to have a normal, stable, intact family. I want a normal, loving, chemical free relationship with my wife. Unfortunately these things are not in my control. She doesn't think she has an alcohol/chemical problem and she has decided she doesn't want me in her life.

So short of those things I want the best possible scenario for the kids, which I believe is a 50/50 custody arrangement and a mother that is chemical/alcohol free. If mom isn't chemical/alcohol free then the kids shouldn't be with her unsupervised. Unfortunately, this is out of my control also and in the hands of a judge.

So, I'm not sure what I want matters.

Are you attending AlAnon meetings?

SBT, I think you've mentioned these things in the past, sorry if I ask the same questions.
We all know that MB doesn't "work" with people actively addicted, right? I believe Dr. Harley states that the addiction tends to trump efforts to build a relationship for most addicts.
So that leads us back to the Plan B/legal separation argument.
If you can't implement separation before it is somehow mandated in the Divorce Decree, then you may have to wait until the divorce is final, she is on her own, and she hits rock bottom (hopefully not bringing the whole brood with her). Then she MIGHT be interested in working with you towards the dream of an intact family.

I still say that listening to the radio show (and perhaps going through some of this at least by email to Dr. Bill and Joyce) would be tremendously beneficial to you.

opt

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

I attended weekly alanon meetings for about a year but have not gone for about a year now. Mostly because schedule didnt work. Ill try going back.

Ill do this.

Ill send an email.

I honestly don't see how there is any recovery anymore. She's had multiple As, is trying to drive me out if our kids lives, doesn't think she has an alcohol problem and is extremely angry towards me...and blames me for all of it including the As. I'd love for there to be some hope but I don't see it now. Even after going dark.

Well in AlAnon they would say "that's the disease talking and acting" when she does that.

Yes. I believe almost everything that has happened in the last few years is tied to drugs and alcohol. The mood swings, violence, other men, hostility towards me, etc. That makes this even harder for me to deal with because I hold out hope that "if she could just stop" maybe things could change for the better. I've actually had thoughts that maybe if I would drink with her maybe she wouldn't be so hostile towards me. I haven't and won't but the thought has occurred to me.

Almost all addicts eventually cheat. Their behavior and the choices they make to continue their addiction(s) end up causing so many problems. They can't deal with or face the problems, so they continue to escape with their addiction(s). We see how their choices and behaviors are destroying everyone that loves them, but they are in a denial, fantasy fog and are just aliens. You don't want to go down that road of drinking or not facing and dealing with problems. It never helps, does it? Like they say here, "Hope is not a plan." You can't control her into making any decision she doesn't want to make. So, that means you can only control the choices you make to move forward. It is you and the kids now. Begin your own traditions and go down your own road. Give them the love, acceptance and security they need. You are their rock now. You are doing so well. I am sorry that you are having to go through this hardship. You WILL be stronger for having made it to the other side. "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger!"

Thanks. I know not to start drinking with her. I do, however, raise it as an example of how sick these situations can become. I didn't grow up around nor know any alcoholics yet the thought has occurred to me that I may be able to relate better to my wife if I don't appear to be the one threatening her drinking and actually were to join her on occasion. Ill nebr do that but I think you get the point. Because of my stance on drinking, from her perspective, I'm the enemy, therefore she's going to hurt me as much as possible.

I'm trying to be there for my kids. I hope the judge sees what I see and she doesn't succeed in ripping our kids from their father.

I understand what you mean by how sick these situations become.
AlAnon teaches that our thinking actually becomes insane when living with an active alcoholic.

Remember even If she wins this round it is important that you remain a rock for your kids.
She has a progressive disease and she WILL get worse.
Custody can be changed based on such circumstances

Exactly. Write down everything she does (as it relates to kids and custody) and at some point you will be able to wrangle more from her.

"Insane" = doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Yes. I think about this often. I go through waves of being very angry and hating her for all she has done. Drugs, alcohol, numerous other men, constant lying, driving a wedge between me and the kids, misrepresenting everything in court to make me appear to be the bad guy, and on and on. I don't know why I want a relationship with her. Except that I made that commitment when I married her...that I would stick with her no matter how bad things might get. I believe in that and it pulls me back from the anger. But, unfortunately, nothing changes, as you said.

If you are speaking of "unconditional love," let me point out that Dr. H holds this as extremely destructive to relationships/marriages. It was mentioned on yet another radio show just last week.
opt

Here.
What's Wrong with Unconditional Love Part 1
What's Wrong with Unconditional Love Part 2

Some good clips on unconditional love.

Radio Clip on Unconditional Love
Radio Clip on Unconditional Love

Nothing changes because you do not understand that you need to change yourself.
You keep waiting for the drunk to grow & learn.
That IS insane.

I'm not speaking of unconditional love. I don't love who she has become. I do love certain things about her. I'm speaking about a commitment to another person to work through things together...eventually to restore love. I guess I'm saying I don't believe divorce is the answer. But that's not my choice. She chose this path.

But you can't work through things when a disease controls her

Okay, I'm with you.
So we're back to Plan B/Legal Separation prior to divorce. This way you have a chance to restore the love in your marriage (through the commitment you made to her - through sickness and health).
The plan is all here. Dr. Harley's plans and MB has saved marriages in worse shape than yours.
See what they say -- write to the program today.

opt

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

I was distracted with additional court requirements. However, I've thought about this a lot and as much as I'd like to see my family stay together I think the damage done in court, along with her long history of cheating (at least 6 As that I am aware of over our 19 years including one with her divorce attorney), and the addiction issues and her complete refusal to acknowledge or take any responsibility for any of it, is just too much for me to take. The damage done at and post court has been overwhelming. She is extremely angry and vindictive and hurtful due to the issues I raised at court. I told the truth. But she doesn't like to hear the truth and, quite honestly, doesn't believe it to be true. Her reality is completely different than mine. I just don't think I have any interest in continuing to hope for and work for reconciliation anymore at this point. In addition, given her addiction issues, there was no way I was going to voluntarily move out if it meant she would be alone at night with the kids.

I am interested in how people have accomplished plan B for their own health and recovery after the D and court ordered separation. How does this work with kids? Do you still write a letter explaining your boundaries for communication and why? How does this work? I'm interested because I honestly don't believe I will become healthy while still interacting with her. She constantly tries to provoke me into arguments. I've become fairly adept at not responding but it's tiresome.

Been wondering about you SBT.
I give you a lot of credit for making every human effort possible to stay in the situation and protect your kids. And also for not running around or away from the truth. WS's (and liars) have a way of turning everyone around them into liars; the truth to them is putty in their hands, they mix it around, turn it into something it's not and then hand it to us and expect us to accept it.

I believe you have grown a lot through this process, SBT. I hope you will continue to use MB philosophy to develop as a parent and a person. You will find strength you didn't know possible, and most likely contentment you didn't know existed.

Plan B will be a walk in the park after what you've been though.

opt

You can find a intermediary for facts about children/finances.

You can write a plan B letter and leave out the part about a plan to reconcile. It can tell her how to comminicate with you about important matters via the intermediary.

Make sure to be in communication with the childrens' schools, health practitioners, etc so that you know what and when things are happening or to attend to things.

Then, you ignore all attempts to reach you without the intermediary.

If you do run into her.......be civil (no lovebusting) and tell her you would appreciate she respect your boundaries and to communicate via the intermediary.

And be a good Dad and just keep focusing on providing safety and joy to your children and to yourself.

Easier said than done. The intermediary will be easier but avoiding the face to face will be the challenge. We have four minor kids who are very active. We will be "bumping into" each other most evenings or weekends for hours at a time.

Then you must find ways NOT to bump into each other, or you will not have a Plan B. It really sounds like you need it.

Read about Parallel parenting in the notable posts thread

The parallel parenting thread is in here also.
How to Plan B Correctly

You will have to get creative. I don't know what kinds of events we're talking about here, but I bet you could come up with some very air-tight ways to limit the chance encounters if you try. Including simply not attending. I know it sounds crazy, but it's not as crazy as the crazy you've been living with for how many years.
And it doesn't have to be forever, but I would definitely shoot for the extreme for at least 6 months.

And I wouldn't hesitate to explain your mentality to the kids. It's the truth: you need some space from their mother. This will actually teach them some important lessons about boundaries and protecting yourself- you don't remain "friends" with those who hurt you.

You may consider starting a thread on the SAA board to help you with Plan B. There are some real experts there who can give you some great guidance. There are some good threads to give you a better understanding of the concept as well. Remember, it's not a punishment for the wayward. It's to get you away from the drama so you can focus on healing yourself and moving forward with your life.

I think you should definitely write a Plan B letter. The reason is because I think your stbx is manipulative and will turn the whole thing around on you. If you have a written document explaining your intentions, at least you can rest assured that you have made an attempt to help her understand. If she chooses not to accept it, that's her perogative.

A sample Plan B letter can be found on these boards. If you write a draft, we can help you refine it.

opt

The events are kids sporting events. If I don't attend I'm sure it will be twisted by her into an example of me not caring for the kids - which she will openly say to the kids. I can deal with that, however, as long as it's not permanent.

I realize this is for my benefit, therefore, also for the benefit of the kids. However, I find it interesting that she seems to believe we will be friends post divorce. I have no interest in being her friend after all she has done to me and the family.

I'll work on a draft of a plan B letter and post it for feedback.

Plan B sample letters and IM thread and all related Plan B is in the thread I posted to you.

Also this.
Important/Special Events in Plan B

Well I failed to control my emotions last night. She was "out with friends" until late. I asked if it was "boyfriends". She wouldn't answer. I asked why she couldn't wait until after the D was finished then said sarcastically, "well I guess you didn't wait before the D either". I ended up saying "I married a whore".

I later apologized.

This is disappointing to me because she had accused me through these entire last couple years of belittling and berating her. Up until now I took pride in the fact that I absolutely knew that wasn't true. Last night I gave her what she wanted. An actual instance of me being mean. This was all done very quietly...no yelling...but the words were still there.

I'm disappointed with myself for failing to control my emotions. Also disappointed that, albeit for only a brief time, I was exactly who she claims I am.

Ugh.

Well at least you didn't lie.
Your wife is playing the role of a whore

Yeah you didnt lie but you walked right into her trap. My WW has been trying for weeks to get me to show the temper shes been telling everyone i have. For one i dont have a temper. Theres only maybe 3 times in 13 years ive gotten mad at her. Last night she almost got me to that point, told me that this isnt her fault she moved out and in with another guy. That i need to take along, and i mean long look in the mirror as to why she left. I guess i wasnt ever allowed to question the money she was hiding, the many other bf's she had that i couldnt prove that people are telling me about now or all the hours she was "working" but not getting paid for.

I had faults like anyone but when i wanted to work on things and she only ever told me i treated her like an inconvenience the last year or so hard to fix anything.

I agree with the others. There is at least a grain of truth in your statement. Except that she presumably wasn't a whore when you married her...
However, from an MB perspective, you have a severe disrespectful judgement here, and possibly an AO. I would also say a missed opportunity to have expressed your feelings in a way that might have had more of a positive outcome. Remember, it's important for spouses to be able to complain to each other, in respectful ways.

Don't get me wrong though, from what you've been through I believe Mother Theresa might have lost her cool in that situation. I also believe your taker is at long last taking charge -- possibly due to the resolution you have come to in your mind about finally giving up the fight for the marriage.

What did she mean by "you didn't wait before the D either"? And what has transpired in the last couple of days?
And importantly: what was the nature of your apology?? I hope it was just for the DJ and not capitualating on her doing anything untoward - she has plenty to be sorry for as well.[I wish she would come here, I'd love to hear her side of the story - I know my ex became retrospectively very aware of how stupid she had been acting...several months too late]

What is the timeline on implementing Plan B? -- is there a date for the court-ordered separation? Can you teach the kids about abusive/irresponsible behavior to look for when you are not there to protect them? Do they know they have a choice as to who they want to live with?

opt

As soon as your kids are old enough, have them join AlaTeen

So I'm working on the plan b details and ran across this. It is highly likely the court will order our communication to go through an application called Our Family Wizzard. You can google it.

I'm wondering if plan b is possible with something like that. Or if anyone has any experience with it.

It is a very common order now and fits in perfect with parallel parenting plans.
It is NOT direct communication.
It fits in fine with plan B

Can it replace the IM?

It can't replace the IM in the sense that it doesn't act as a spam filter.
She can still email and send whatever messages she wants;
One option would be to have an IM monitor it and then you could still have the IM.
This would be a ghost IM that she would not know about.

I've lived with insane behavior too.
Plan B will help you immensely. You will start to think more clearly in just a few weeks.

Any update?

I apologize for being gone so long. Here are some updates for any of you out there that we're watching my story over the last few years. I'm thinking this thread needs to move to a new forum now but I'm not sure. I'll post this update here and then look around to see if there is a new place to continue posting.

My marriage finally ended in July of 2013. I was ordered out of my house but to continue to pay for the house so she and the kids have a place to live. The judge ordered joint legal and joint physical custody with a parenting schedule that favors her. I get my kids every other weekend and one night during the week and just my little boys on Tuesday afternoon for a few hours. It's a horrible schedule but I'm learning to deal with it.

There are lots of parts of my story I haven't shared and maybe over time I will. I think I need to write a book.

Since the original decree she wouldn't stop calling me names and blaming me for the D. I went back to court and requested that all communication be in writing. She judge ordered it. Even after that she couldn't stop herself from criticizing me and blaming me. Her latest is to claim she has 'diagnose' me as a narcissist. These things wouldn't bother me except that I'm sure her views are shared with the kids.

Now I'm taking her back to court again because she has refused to comply with the parenting schedule as it relates to my D14. I used to be extremely close to my D14 but now it has gotten to the point that she won't even talk to me or come to my place on my time or even look at me. I haven't seen her in over a month now. My ex claims D14 has 'valid reasons' for not wanting to come to my house anymore yet my ex won't share any of those reason with me. I don't blame my D for this. I think it is 100% up to my ex to make sure D is ready and comes with me. I filed a motion for contempt, the judge signed it and I am now awaiting my hearing.

There have been other conflicts. Money, etc. But they have been mostly manageable. My biggest concern is that whenever I hold a boundary she retaliates by exposing the kids to her point of view and they kids end up being angry at me.

As for her A partner. I don't think he is in the picture. Although I honestly would have no way of knowing if he was. I am very strict about absolutely no contact with her that can be avoided. I don't talk to her and we only communicate via emails. I only see her at kid events and my emotions about those situations are largely gone. I only want to spend as much time with my kids as possible.

I found out through the discovery at trial that she was diagnosed with the characteristics of BPD. I read a book called "Splitting" that was extremely useful. The one piece of advice I can give to anyone else going through a similar experience to mine is to DOCUMENT EVERYTHING. Your wayward spouse, ex or soon to be ex will HATE you for it but that's ok. Their ability to lie constantly or tell half truths in order to project themselves as a victim is scary. The only way to counter that is with fact. Document, take pictures, take notes, keep everything. It will help you unwind their stories and get to the truth and may be the only way you will ever convince a judge of the truth.

I also have no idea if she is still using or drinking anymore. This scares me but it will most likely get to the point where people can't ignore it anymore. I wish I could get my kids away from it but I can't because I can't prove what's happening or even if it is anymore. She was the master at hiding it when we lived together and now that we live apart I have no idea what's going on.

So, my current status is that of a dad trying to maintain a connection with my kids with a schedule that makes that very difficult. I breaks my heart every day.

I'll be happy to update more if it helps anyone else going through similar experiences. I'd also be open to any advice people have about parallel parenting with high conflict people.

I've wondered how you are, glad to see you back.

One thought: You may benefit from an email IM that can filter emails for you...or you could post the emails here for suggested responses.

I DID document my ww behaviors, and currently have full custody. And you're right: she hated me because of it. (But then again, who really cares if a cheating spouse hates us anyway).

So I thought I’d come back one more time to button up this thread. Long story short my ex continued to spiral downward. I worked through the courts and got a temporary order for full custody of my kids. The alcohol got worse. 3 DUIs and a resisting arrest charge later and I had a permanent custody change. Full custody to me with supervised time for her on weekends. She never followed through on her supervised time. About 4 months after the permanent custody change she killed herself. Not the ending I would have liked but honestly my life is better and the kids are better off. First choice would have been for her to get help and beat her addictions but that wasn’t going to happen. Hopefully my threads on this forum can help someone else.

Oh wow, what a tragedy. Thanks for the update, sbt. How are your children doing?