Have you "earned" the right to leave your relationship?

Marriage Builders

I recently heard something on a Christian talk show that I had never heard before. In fact I need to give credit to the source.I heard this from "Dr. Phil" (Phil McGraw) who is a frequent guest on Oprah. He wrote a book entitled "Relationship Rescue".Appearing on the same show with him was a couple that had been married for 22 years. The husband openly admitted he had made alot of mistakes and was now trying to correct all the hurt/damage he had caused.However, despite all the changes for good; the wife had no more feelings and wanted out of the relationship.What Dr. Phil told the man was (I'll paraphrase); "You screwed up all that time and suddenly just because you've made these changes, you expect your wife to just fall at your feet and worship the new you. Sorry, it doesn't work like that".(Personal note: This confirms what I have heard that men tend to want to forgive/forget and say "let's just move on"..while women take a long time to get over hurts/wounds.)Dr. Phil told the man it would take time and that his wife was going to have to see consistency plus need time to heal.Then, it was what Dr. Phil addressed to the wife that caught my attention. He basically told her this: "You have to earn the right to leave this relationship. By that I mean, you have to have turned over every stone and made every attempt at reconciliation before you have the right to walk out". Then he bluntly asked her if she had done this (she hadn't).This really ministered to me because of my situation. After nearly 30 years of marriage, my wife left me in Feb of 1996. We were separated for 4 years before we finally divorced in March of this year.During this time, I remained faithful to her, I didn't date, I made every attempt at reconciliation, I turned over every stone possible to restore the marriage, I made all of the changes necessary, I dealt with every issue (and then some) that caused the separation...but my wife wasn't buying.Finally, after 4 years I gave up and filed for divorce. In Texas there is what is termed a No Fault Divorce...simple, 60 days to finalize, both parties sign and it is over.I didn't want to divorce my wife, but she said she wasn't going to divorce me; in fact what she wanted was a "permanent separation". Even after I filed the divorce, I would have taken her back.So, when I heard Dr. Phil say that we "have to earn our way out of a relationship", I can honestly say I can look in the mirror and declare I did everything humanly/spiritually possible to save/restore my marriage, but God would not cross my wife's free will.I honestly believe in most cases, the #1 cause for divorce is "selfishness" in one of the two parties. Not always...but most of the time!I want to admonish anyone reading this post, before you give up on or walk out on your relationship; ask yourself....."Have I earned the right to leave? Have I honestly turned over every stone and made every attempt at reconciliation?"If you can say you have and the other party refuses to change; then I say in the words of Jesus...you are free to "shake the dust off your feet" and move on.What I have shared, I tried to share in love and compassion; and not in judgement towards anyone.[censored] from Texas

Dear [censored] from Texas, Thank you for your post. I am sitting here with tears down my face. It hasn't been that long for me. My H & I had a very rocky relationship. We are both in recovery & each in our own right have been sellfish. When we were together I tried everything I could I wanted to meet his needs make it work showed him love took it back showed him love again for years he said he was leaving if things didn't change he said he couldn't live with me I didn't clean the house right I didn't pay the bills right etc Sex was always good & we did that until the day he left. I became resistant to his leaving & that forced him away. He left after he graduated machanical engineering school got a new job in another state (I put him through school) And is angry & miserable And I still love but he doesn't want me. He bought a 2000 Harley & living his life. Mine is falling apart. I am accepting that I had a 100% responsibility in the destruction of our marriage. I have taken a work shop on this billferguson.com Now I treat him with love I set him free I let him go. I still go through the hurt but I process it & let it go. Now the paper work needs to be done the no fault divorce. I don't want to file or pay for anything I did not want. He says he loves me but can't live with me. I don't have a choice. I tried so hard to do it right in our marriage now I am finding there are things I am not doing well Now I am behind on my bills and I had a problem @ work & I have the boss today. I am still sober & clean 17 3/4 years. & I am doing the best I can I am goin to a finacial advisor & get my life on track back to your post I am looking at did I turn every stone???? I'll look at that . Now I need to take care of me He left in December & doesn't want it to work. Thanks for your insight. Where in Texax are you?

Yeah, I've earned it. Still not ready for it yet thoough. I'll give her maybe another 6 months.------------------ Prayers & God Bless! Chris For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

[censored], This made me think. I've looked back, and short of losing all my self respect and individuality.... or basicly doing only what he said I could/should do, yes, I feel I did do everything I could do. I know my X would disagree, he disagreed with everything I did/said anyway. He didn't want a wife, he wanted a cleaning woman/financial planner/cook/hooker (sorry, but it's true) without a mind or opinion of her own. That is one stone that I could not turn... losing myself and being unhappy just to make him happy. Still, I didn't leave.... he did. No, I don't feel he did everything to earn the right to leave. But I can except what has happened and move on because I did.Thanks for posting this.ButterflyPS ~ where have you been?

GypsyFirst of all, you can not take on the weight of accepting 100% blame for the destruction of your marriage.I believe when a marriage fails or is in trouble, 99% of the time it is always the man's fault! I'm sorry men, but God appointed us as the heads of our home and He calls the man into accountability!I know there are rare exceptions to this rule, but your husband sounds very selfish and he has to take account for his part!You say he just left in December, this is too soon for either of you to think of divorce. Remember I went almost 4 years. Just back off, take care of yourself....leave him alone and let him make the next move.Oh, I am from Fort Worth, TexasChris 123Initially your response "Yea, I earned it.." almost sounded beligerent to me; but then I remember reading many of your posts in which you did hang in there..... If you can look in the mirror and from your heart know that you turned over every stone and went the 2d mile, then I would say "you earned it".ButterflyGood to hear from you again...aren't you the one I e-mailed about the UPS systems (you're from Alb, NM?)How have you been? I have been mostly lurking here lately...I guess I just got tired of posting on the Mega-Thread with Mitzi/Murph......I hope they reach 2,000You say your husband left (are you separated or divorced?) - If he didn't "earn" the right to leave, there is nothing you can do about that. He has to live with his choice. Just don't 'beat up' on yourself...ok?Thanks to all who responded here....[censored] from Texas (Fort Worth)

[censored],Haven't seen you on in a LONG time, unless your hiding out on another board??Your post was a good one and made lots of sense. I sure hope I earned the right to walk from my marriage.He cheated once every 5 years , 3 times in a row, left on xmas day and moved right in with OW. I gave him a month only because we had been this route 3 times now, and leaving his children on Xmas, I didn't feel I could trust him again. I would have saved the marriage for the children but not necessarily for myself. I suppose it wasn't a lot of time, but ultimately, his cruelty and pure disrespect had grown over the next few months and in my heart I believe I made the right decision.Don't be such a stranger and prayers to you, Dana (formerly "lonelymom")

I tried so hard, so hard. But I couldn't measure up to his expectations. It broke my heart to file for a divorce. Actually took me from a good emotional place back to Paxil. I would have done almost anything but he wanted a performance based realtionship and I couldn't perform up to his expectations. Would I take him back? That's a toughy. I'd consider it but, and this is the fly in the ointment, he would have to change in lots of ways. It would not be healthy for me or the children to live with an emotionally and verbally abusive man who definitely displays some tendencies toward violence. I think the potential for him to physically hurt me exists. So, I would really have to see a lot of positive changes and I certainly wouldn't consider doing it without him actively participating in a lot of professionally-led therapy.Meanwhile, I still grieve a bit each day although I wouldn't go back to the life I had before. There's still "one last cloud that just won't rain".

[censored],This topic did make me think.I believe with all my heart that I earned the right to "leave" my marriage. I did everything I could to hold my marriage together and he still moved out. Then after that, I tried all that was possible. I had to file in order to get child support. He wasn't giving me money and wouldn't visit the boys. I can't change who he is or force him to spend time with the kids.I didn't try as long as some here, but I know my stbx and I know that nothing would have worked.I feel very at peace with my decision to go ahead with the divorce. I endured more during my marriage than any one person should have to. I know that I have made the best decision for me and my kids.BTW, I've missed you! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Mitzi

[censored] could you send this to my wife? This is how I feel!

[censored],You put into words exactly the thoughts and feelings I've had about my own marriage. JL, a person I greatly respect, has told me more than a couple of times that my ex had a "right" to divorce me because I cheated on him. For some reason, that really stuck in my craw, for the following reasons:1) My affair was very brief. The EA maybe 2 months. The PA two weeks. I do understand that this did not minimize the pain my ex experienced, however, the deception was not long term. 2) I confessed voluntarily and did everything my ex asked of me to regain his trust. I also know that trust doesn't happen overnight. I expected and was ready to live with his distrust for a very, very long time, maybe even life.3) My ex did not go to counseling himself, and only went to three sessions with me. In my opinion, he exited the marriage emotionally the day I confessed. Never did he address the things he did to breakdown our marriage. This had always been a problem with our relationship, actually. I feel like I "earned" a second chance because of my efforts after my confession, and also because even he admitted I had been a very good wife before this happened. I was willing to do whatever was necessary to prove I was worthy of it the rest of my life. Some say my ex had a right to divorce me. He had a "right" only insofar that anybody has a right to decide what to do with their lives. We all have free will. However, my ex, IMO, did not earn the right to leave our relationship because he did not do anything to address his contribution to our problems, not before the affair, and not after. The only reason he stayed around after my confession is so that he could punish me, not because he was willing to work towards reconciliation.

CinderellaUnless your husband is willing to deal with his own issues, things will never change. His need for a performance based relationship is a mask/cover-up of his own demons.When I say you must 'earn' the right to leave a relationship, if a woman is in danger of physical harm...she has no choice but to leave.To Cinderella, Mitzi, The Student and anyone else reading this:Again...I still say the success or failure of a marriage relationship is 99% on the shoulders of the "man" and not the woman!I am very hard on men because I are one and also because of my own experience!Even tho' the Bible says "the woman was deceived (Eve) and not the man (Adam) in the garden, when God came down, who did He call into accountability?He didn't say "Eve, wherefore art thou?" - No, He said "Adam, where are you?"In other words, He called the man into accountability.When God gets ready to put a home/marriage back into Divine Order, I believe He begins with the MAN and will totally break that man and crush him and then begin to put him back together as the man of God/husband he should have always been.Of course this is contingent on the man being willing to be dealt with (as I have for 4-1/2 years)...however; if the man fights the dealings of God and refuses to deal with his own issues and blames the wife..God's hands are tied.MitziHi! I really don't know your story, but what you shared today and from what I had read before...you certainly 'earned' the right out of the relationship. I am just sorry your husband didn't wake up.Hey...I see you are approaching 1700 posts, I still "lurk" but just haven't posted lately, I'll probably jump back in later.Anyway...you have a blessed day.The StudentIt was nice to hear from you again. From what I had read on other posts/threads, you have caused some people concern here on MB. I hope you are doing ok.Now first of all, your husband did not have a "right" to divorce you because of your indiscrete affair. Even tho' the Bible talks about this being the only grounds for divorce, this should never be automatic.There is a higher law and that is the law of love, mercy and forgiveness; obviously you husband didn't extend this to you.Then you mentioned you don't feel he earned the right to leave the relationship..this may be true; however, it is no concern of yours. You can't be responsible for his immature actions. You can only be responsible for you.Then, not to excuse your EA and whatever else happened; but if a woman is being treated the way God intended her to be treated by her husband, why would she want to look elsewhere?In other words, did your husband knowingly or unknowingly drive you into the arms of another man?I have read some of your other posts and you are obviously deeply scarred and I pick up that you are so wounded, you have adopted the mentality "I will never love again, I will never trust or give myself to another man".This may be where you are at right now, but you don't have to stay there....given time and the sweet love of God....you will come out of this.Hurting in OmahaI'll be glad to send this to your wife..does she have an e-mail?Thanks again to all who have responded...my prayer is that I can be used of the Lord to touch/help others.[censored] from Texas (Fort Worth)

How long does it take till you earn the right to leave a marriage??? I mean..a year..six months? How long? My thing is..my husband has never trusted me..not before we married..not since we have been married..he said the reason he married me was "so I wouldn't need any other man in my life". I have always had men friends..some I have known since I was little (1960's) and some I have known since the 1970's..and we have been there for each other during bad times and good..when parents died..through divorces..marriages..childbirths..everything. I have women friends I have had just as long..and he is threatened by them as well..before we married, he would find letters I was writting and had set aside to do something that I would go back to, and get mad that I wasn't writing anything about HIM in the letters..I wasn't writing anything about any men..just writing in general about life..and things God was doing in my life..He went to church before we married, only if I went..if I didn't go..he didn't go..(Yes I know all the signs were there of control) but because I hadn't allowed God to fully heal me from past abuses, it's what I was used to in relationships..and didn't fully understand what unconditional love was..three months into our marriage, my husband took a job that takes him out of town continually..(he's home about 1 weekend a month, maybe 4 days a month) he provides finacially..so that I can stay home w/ our children..but there is no other support..nothing emotionally (I would try and talk to him about things I was going through and feeling and he'd walk out of the room..because it wasn't leading to "sex")he doesn't talk to me..doesn't open up emotionally to me..so I talk to my friends..both men and women..he see's that as a threat..yet he doesn't give me that of himself..I have sent him e-mails, asking things and telling him how I am feeling about things..and things God is doing in my life.. and he doesn't even respond..he's been saying for the past 7 years he would look for a job in town that he is home all the time..yet he hasn't even done that..I sent out resume's for him at one time..he didn't even return the phone calls of the ppl who did call him.. I ended up having an affair last year..his response..see I knew I couldn't trust you.. (we've been married almost 9 yrs) he still isn't looking for a job in town..yet he expects me to "make up" for having an affair..if you do this then I'll look for a job in town...if you do that..then I'll look for a job in town..he hasn't looked in 7 years..why should I trust him to do so now? I've been praying about this for a long time..and I wonder..how long do you wait??

Thorned RoseSorry, there is no 'pat' answer/formula as to how long you wait. Each situation is different.Sounds like you are about at the end of your rope....you might consider writing him a detailed e-mail, unless you think he'd sit down long enough to listen; and listing each of your concerns/hurts etc.This is why I strongly believe in 'trial separations' in lieu of divorce. Many times, they can be real 'wake up calls' to people like your husband.Wish I could just hand you an equation or a formula...but there is none.[censored] from Texas (fort worth)

Thornedrose, My ex sounds alot like your H. He got mad one time because I called my cat "sweetie-pie". He was the only one allowed to be called "sweetie-pie". After I confessed, he told me he never did trust me and always knew I would cheat on him. And I said "Ok, why did you marry me, you selfish b*stard?". Basically, I spent most of my 8 yrs with him proving I wasn't cheating. I work with all men, so it was no easy task. I had never cheated on anyone. Of course, after my confession, he was telling his friends, coworkers, and family I was a nymphomaniac-sex addict. Yea right. I was faithful to him for almost 8 yrs, cheated on him one time, and that makes me a sex addict. Sigh.Anyway, my ex had some serious trust and control issues that had nothing to do with me.

[censored], "In other words, did your husband knowingly or unknowingly drive you into the arms of another man?"This is a question I am not,um,allowed to answer. If I say yes, then people will think I'm looking for justification. If I say no, then my ex is off the hook for the things he did to cause damage to our marriage. The truth is, I am completely responsible for my behavior. However, we are both responsible for the events leading to this behavior. I know I told him many times prior to ever meeting the OM how much his anger hurt me, and reminding me of past mistakes, most of them before I ever met him. Even after I met the OM and before anything physical, I told my ex "I'm afraid of you". His response "I don't want to be married to someone who is afraid of me". I can't remember a single time he took responsibility for anything in our relationship, either before or after. So, my feelings say YES he did push me away. I had OTHER CHOICES about what I could do with those feelings besides cheat on him. The difference between him and me is that I took responsibility for the things I had done to damage the marriage, and he could not.

The StudentI hear what you're saying about "did he drive you into the arms of another man" - It's almost a Catch 22 situation. You'll catch flack if you take either position. And yes I agree, "two wrongs do not make a right" even if "in the natural" you were justified.Also, you brought up a good point and that is the issue of "taking responsibility". I think the paramount sign of maturity is when a person begins to take responsibility for "their own actions" and quits blaming everything else and everyone else.This is what turned my life around back in 1996 when I realized my problem wasn't my wife, my kids, my job, my finances, my Pastor etc/etc....my problem was me! Was my sins, my faults.Introspection, transparency, open-ness and making yourself 'vulnerable' (all in balance) is liberating.As long as a person, no matter how old they are; continues to blame their spouse, childhood etc, they will never grow up, never change.Thanks for the response![censored] from Texas (Fort Worth)

I'm new to the Divorce board. Was hanging out in Emotional Needs and Infidelity sections earlier in the year.Brief history: D-day for me on wife' affair 12/99. No commitment from wife to work on marriage but we both start going to individual counseling. PA with OM-1 basically over because he is afraid I will tell his wife. Wife goes through withdrawal but still can't decide if she wants to work on marriage. This goes on until 6/00.I decide to quit job (some other reasons for this in addition to marriage situation and it's effects) and take kids on long vacation. We left end of June and returned last weekend. Goals were to give W time and space to try to reach a decision on marriage, me to heal, think things over and be prepared either way, build even stronger relationship with my kids and keep them from being shuttled off to daycare all summer. ( wife was stay at home mom for past 2 1/2 years, but now working so she would be able to pursue her independence).I knew the minute we arrived what I was going to hear when we talked. We didn't have a chance to talk that night. That evening I found an e-mail from newly discovered OM-2!! I wasn't even snooping!! It was tucked in the sun visor of my pickup, which she had been driving while we were traveling in her bigger car. E-mail references a night where she turned down sexual advances but was still signe smooches all over, referenced her new naval ring, etc.W explained this as "friend" that was feeling more than she was, etc. There were some inconsistencies in her story that I brought up but basically let go.We discussed where we are going. She says she knows that I could make things work with her, that I have grown and changed immensely, and that she knows I could do the work of building a real relationship, etc. But… she has not interest in any relationship, liked living the single life while we were away and all that. Basic resolutions are that she will move out in 3 weeks when kids start school and we'll begin the divorce process. She even mentioned me having primary physical custody! (which is fine with me and maybe better for the kids)Later this week I find e-mails from OM-3!! This guy is more serious, things have gotten sexual, and all that other good stuff! And what is even worse from a mans', or at least my point of view, is that she is experimenting with accepting sexual favors that she would never allow me to give, even though I was willing and approached her on this numerous times throughout our marriage.Anyone else ever seen anything like this on these boards? Up to OM-3!!??What chance does Plan A or even Plan B have if, as the fantasy ends with the current OM, she begins with a new OM? Met with counselor for first time since return last night. She, of course, has told him nothing about her new relationships. He doesn't have much to offer me at this point except to begin to rebuild my life without her.So at this point my strategy is Plan A until school starts, Plan B after she moves out and try to sever my emotional ties to her so that I don't have to suffer any more of this. Plan B will become Plan D and that's that.As far as "leaving no stone unturned", I feel like I am getting very close to that point.Not sure I even want to hope for a last minute miracle after all this. Hope for this marriage only seems to cause me pain and dissapointment. I feel like I am better off hoping and preparing for some future relationship.

[censored], Thank you for your post on "earning" the right to leave a marriage. That is the point that I am trying to make with my H now. 3 weeks ago, he walked in and said he wanted out, I told him I didn't want the marriage to end and wanted to work on it, he basically told me that it would be a "disservice to himself" to try and work it out. We've been together 10 years, married 8, he told me he wanted it to end the eve of our 8th anniversary. We have 2 children. I say he has NOT earned the right to walk out of our marriage. He hasn't even attempted to try and work things out. He is coming over this evening to discuss things, he isn't in a hurry to divorce, and what his mother said yesterday to me about him going through with a divorce was not correct. General consensus of friends is that he lost his mind for a bit, and that it will all work out later. I plan on printing out your original post on this thread and giving it to him to read. I am in the process of scheduling an appointment with Steve Harley and H's comment was, "telephone counseling?, what does that do?" I'm doing it for myself first of all, if he wants to be there, too, then it shows me he isn't as hardened as he is trying to seem. He has read the print outs I gave him from MB site, and he took LB with him last weekend to read. I'm trying to work on that "earning" ideal, I know that if this marriage does end, I at least, have tried my best to try and reconcile. I'm also working on other issues, been looking into Guy Finley's site and Bill Ferguson's sites about letting go. I'm trying to find self peace at least, it's the most I can do for the kids in all of this. Thanks again,Lori

Bangarra/LoriThe whole issue about "earning the right to leave a relationship, has to do with you" and not the other party.In other words, you stated you don't feel your husband has earned the right to leave your relationship; this may be true.However, you can't "make him" earn the right so if he refuses to see the light, then you have to let him go.I heard this statement that I have tried to live by: "sometimes we have to keep doing the right thing, even when the right thing isn't being done for us or to us".I think it's great you are going to print this out for him...I pray he will be receptive. Just remember, you are only responsible for you and no one else.He has to take responsibility for his own actions (good or bad).[censored] from Texas (Fort Worth)

[censored], You are so correct in your statement that it is up to him to figure out if he earned it or not. he read the post, he took it with him. We talked a lot, or maybe I did, he said he really didn't ever see us getting back together. he has walled himself up pretty deeply, and actually doesn't make a lot of sense in his words vs. his actions. He did say he wouldn't give me any promises, but he would think about all I told him. He isn't ready to jump into a divorce, he's taking some time to think about things. He did say he was ready to drop it all and just start over, I said doing what?, he said he had no idea. I've decided that I need to let him go. let him have his time, I made it very clear what I wanted to try and do. We have to meet at times because of our business, but other than that, I think I will give him as much time and space as he thinks he needs. Guess I can't expect a quick fix, when he says there isn't anything left in him to care. I can at least say I tried when it comes to looking back at our life and wondering what happened.Lori

Lori,Try reading the basic concepts on this site and the Plan A info. You may find that you will be able to influence him in positive ways, while still giving him some time and space to reach his own decision.Check out the Emotional Needs section of the forum as well. you will be surprised at the number of people who are in situations very similar to your own. These people can offer advice and support when you need it.Like [censored] said, keep dong the right thing even if it isn't being returned.Wishing you the best.

[censored],First - I strongly disagree with you about 99% falling on the shoulders of the man, and feel that a "newbie" man to this forum would be sincerely diserviced by that statement.Marriage, by biblical terms, financial terms, or any other is a side by side.....in other words 50/50. The bottom line is the man and woman are equally responsilbe to eachother and the god of thier understanding.Second - to counter this thought I will use my marriage as an example. My wife was verbally, emotionally, and at times physically abusive. She busted my eardrum twice in the course of our 7 year relationship by hitting me in the side of the head for disagreeing with her. I feel I earned the right to walk out 5 years ago, but have stayed because I felt it was what my god wanted me to do. She has as many issues of abandonment as I do, and I could not in good concious leave her, even tho I truly did not deserve the treatment I recieved.Third - On earning the right to leave......ok, on that I will agree with you. As I said, I feel I earned that right long ago. The emotional abuse alone has been enough for anyone to leave. We tried counseling, spirituality, and nothing made a difference for her. She has a huge empty void inside that no one can fill, until she fills it.She was and is unfaithful to me on a regular basis. Apparantly having had affair after affair, because of her own emotional problems. She can have sex just fine, just not with someone she cares about, so I was not an option. I could not "fix" her and can only take care of me from now on.Last of all, I want you to consider my first point from this point of view......when I came to this forum....I was seriously suicidal......all I needed to hear at that point was some other MAN telling me that the marriage wsa 99% my responsibility......considering the suffering I was and had gone thru that might have just pushed me over the edge.Thank you, Ben

Ben:Guess you are in the 1% category of not being at fault. That is why I said 99% - there are always rare exceptions of which you might be one.However,as a man I hold to my convictions and I need to inform you that marriage is not a 50/50 proposition...it is a 100%. To make it 50/50 makes the love relationship "conditional" and according to Ephesians 5 where the Lord commands "husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church" - the greek word for love is AGAPE which is the God-kind of love "unconditional".I am truly sorry for the abuse you suffered and I wish you the best.By the way, you mentioned and I quote "...the god of their understanding". Do you embrace the Christian faith, that of personal faith/acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?[censored] from Texas

Ben:One more thought, you mentioned your wife had "a void in her that only she could fill" -I'm sorry, but only Jesus Christ can fill this void.Neither a husband or wife can find their fulfillment/security in the other...our security has to be in Jesus Christ first. This is a major problem in that couples look to each other to fill what only the Lord can fill.If you are going to quote the Bible, then you have to quote/abide by it ALL and not just a verse here and there.I was somewhat disturbed by your listing of diety (God) twice by referring to Him as god (little g). If you really know Him as your personal Saviour and not just some vain religion....you would know to always capitalize diety 'God', rather than 'god'.[censored] from Texas

[censored],Well if everyone in the world agreed on everything, the world would be either mighty peaceful or awfully boring.I still disagree with you, but you are entitled to your opinion as I am mine.As for "God". While I was raised in a christian believing home, No, I am not a christian in your understanding. I am however spiritual and I do believe Christ existed, and in the good he brought the world. However, this is not a forum for religious beliefs, so I will refrain from stating all my personal beliefs and leave it at that.You are right that God has to fill her void, and that is why she failed in staying sober, because she would not work the steps in AA. She could not agree with the whole higher power concept. I wish you would try to keep in mind what I said about the "newbies" that might read your post and become even more discouraged.Ben

Oh - definitely earned the right to leave. Or in my case, earned the right to tell H that he is no longer welcome in my home and that we will be divorcing.....no going back for the 1,209,836,330th time. He has proven that 'bimbo' is more important to him than his wife and children. I will divorce him with only one regret - my love for him has faded to such a degree that I feel it has become negligible. I miss that love.

Oh Ben, I hurt for you...and your ex-wife.. I was abused as a child and understand the hurt of betrayal, shame, guilt, abandonment, and a whole lot more. I understand how she felt she couldn't have make love to someone she was emotionally close to. Because the betrayal of abuse in childhood starts at the most important relationships in our lives, and we learn to seperate "love" from the act of "sex". We are built to want love, and acceptance uncondionitionally, and when you are little and never recieve that you don't know what it is, and you feel if you never had it you don't deserve it. And when you are used to bad attention..anything better is hard to accept..it's like..when your used to being hit with a frying pan, when your hit w/ a hand it seems minor. But the pain is still the same..and the damage is just as grave.I don't know what all the issues are that you experienced as a child that has hurt you so deeply, but I know for myself, I couldn't see God as a loving father or a loving God for that matter when I was growing up, or for many years as an adult..HOW COULD HE IF HE's so LOVING ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN TO ME??? TO ANYONE?? If He is so almighty why didn't HE do something to stop it??? The thing I have had to come to realize is we all have a free will, (even those who abused us)And God doesn't force His will on anyone.. He couldn't make the person stop abusing you..but He could offer comfort and compassion because of it..I know for myself.. as I was being sexually abused..I looked at it was just happening to my body..and not the whole person..I literally disassociated myself from the body..and I have asked God numerous time WHERE WERE YOU?? And I have heard His voice just recently answer this question in His word.."To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord", I have come to believe that everytime I mentally left the situation because it was to much for me to bear..that I was in the Arms of God..as He held me and weeped with me and for both myself and my father..it has taken me MANY MANY years to get to this point..and as God changes me from looking at myself as "just a body" or "just a part of my body" I am realizing there are things I will not tolerate anymore..from anyone..and one of them is a lack of respect for me..and what I want and don't want..and because of this it is causing more problems in my marriage..because My hb is having to face Himself before God..and He really doesn't want to..and so as I change to the New creation in Christ, and DIE to the old man.. and He makes me whole as He intended..My marriage is filled with Many Many problems because of my own actions and understandings in the past about myself, and what I felt I was worth. And I am realizing that had I dealt with these things BEFORE I GOT married..I never ever would have married this man..as He is now..so I am having to step aside..and allow God to prompt his heart to look within himself and have the desire to change..and if He doesn't then..well..I won't and can't stay married to him..because I know that I deserve better..but I also know that I have done all that God has asked me to do in following Him..whether my husband does or not..is stricktly up to him..I can't make him since he also has that free will that God gave us all...My prayers go out to you...and that you will ask God to search your heart, so that you may know the truth and be set free from the old man, and welcome in the new..as God desires for all of us..But real change comes when we really look within ourselves at all the hurts and allow ourselves to go before God and allow Him to cut us open and face the hurts and pains inside and allow Him to really heal us...it's like..were have a this big gapping wound inside of us that is infected and festering with puss..we can chose to live with the infection, or we can allow the surgeon to go in and clean the wound..He will have to cut us open and make it hurt like hell..but as He cleans out the puss with the peroxide it begins to feel a little better, and He will stop for awhile and let us rest as He performs the surgery..but He will prompt us again when it's time to go back through the procedure..and each time it is a different section of the wound..(a different hurt a different pain) and in some places the wounds are deeper than others so those may have to have two or three different surgical procedures..to clean out all the infection that has been festering there..but as each little hurt begins to be cleaned out and starts to heal..You begin to trust God (the surgeon) to heal the bigger wounds..and I will not say that it is not painful..because it is..but it is worth it..as the old song says..It will be worth it all when we see Jesus..And When God says those words..Well done my good and faithful servant..Sorry this is so long..but my prayers are that this will help someone understand God better, and learn to trust Him more..

[censored], I have been e-mailing him letters..and alot of them go left unanswered..unless its something he feels that I am attacking him on..then he'll respond to those..and I write him back trying to explain I wasn't attacking him but rather trying to explain how I feel about things..and tell him I'm not meaning to hurt him with the things I am telling him but I feel that he needs to know..I sent him a list of things I need in a relationship and he comes back w/ those are conditions of your loving me..(ie..emotional support.. having someone share w/ me..having someone there to hug me when I am hurting..having someone not throw my past mistakes in my face, I need to be trusted and feel I can trust)I e-mailed him back saying..those are condionitions of my loving you..those are MY needs in a relationship..something I never knew I had or thought I deserved (because I had never dealt w/ my past abuses)..and if you don't feel that you can meet those needs then thats okay..I can except that..but I don't have to stay married to you if you feel you can't meet them..and I shared some other things as well..and asked him some things and he has yet to respond back..or call..

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by [censored]: I recently heard something on a Christian talk show that I had never heard before. In fact I need to give credit to the source.I heard this from "Dr. Phil" (Phil McGraw) who is a frequent guest on Oprah. He wrote a book entitled "Relationship Rescue".Appearing on the same show with him was a couple that had been married for 22 years. The husband openly admitted he had made alot of mistakes and was now trying to correct all the hurt/damage he had caused.However, despite all the changes for good; the wife had no more feelings and wanted out of the relationship.What Dr. Phil told the man was (I'll paraphrase); "You screwed up all that time and suddenly just because you've made these changes, you expect your wife to just fall at your feet and worship the new you. Sorry, it doesn't work like that".(Personal note: This confirms what I have heard that men tend to want to forgive/forget and say "let's just move on"..while women take a long time to get over hurts/wounds.)Dr. Phil told the man it would take time and that his wife was going to have to see consistency plus need time to heal.Then, it was what Dr. Phil addressed to the wife that caught my attention. He basically told her this: "You have to earn the right to leave this relationship. By that I mean, you have to have turned over every stone and made every attempt at reconciliation before you have the right to walk out". Then he bluntly asked her if she had done this (she hadn't).This really ministered to me because of my situation. After nearly 30 years of marriage, my wife left me in Feb of 1996. We were separated for 4 years before we finally divorced in March of this year.During this time, I remained faithful to her, I didn't date, I made every attempt at reconciliation, I turned over every stone possible to restore the marriage, I made all of the changes necessary, I dealt with every issue (and then some) that caused the separation...but my wife wasn't buying.Finally, after 4 years I gave up and filed for divorce. In Texas there is what is termed a No Fault Divorce...simple, 60 days to finalize, both parties sign and it is over.I didn't want to divorce my wife, but she said she wasn't going to divorce me; in fact what she wanted was a "permanent separation". Even after I filed the divorce, I would have taken her back.So, when I heard Dr. Phil say that we "have to earn our way out of a relationship", I can honestly say I can look in the mirror and declare I did everything humanly/spiritually possible to save/restore my marriage, but God would not cross my wife's free will.I honestly believe in most cases, the #1 cause for divorce is "selfishness" in one of the two parties. Not always...but most of the time!I want to admonish anyone reading this post, before you give up on or walk out on your relationship; ask yourself....."Have I earned the right to leave? Have I honestly turned over every stone and made every attempt at reconciliation?"If you can say you have and the other party refuses to change; then I say in the words of Jesus...you are free to "shake the dust off your feet" and move on.What I have shared, I tried to share in love and compassion; and not in judgement towards anyone.[censored] from Texas <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'd like to reply to the idea that you have to "earn the right to leave a relationship". First of all there is never any way any person can ever know or find all of the possible "stones that you have to uncover" i.e. all the options. At every moment you do the best you can, but you can't see everything. Who really has the right to decide whether or not a person in a marriage has really looked at all the options. Dr. Phil MacGraw? OK, so maybe he is a psychologist. But, there are lots of them out there. Only the person in the marriage can really decide whether or not they have tried everything. Only you can know, because you live that marriage everyday. Besides, what happens if you just get tired of looking for options to make a marriage work with a person that puts little effort into your relationship. Do you really have the responsibility of torturing yourself by going through unhappiness everyday. Right now my husband is currently trying to be a "good guy" in our marriage. Just two weeks ago he wanted a divorce because he said that he regularly saw that people split up and left unhappy marriages and started their lives anew. (I should mention that our disagreement this time started over the way he defended our young female employee for unacceptable behavior and how he basically tried to make me feel as if it were my fault. I wasn't even there.)Anyway, I said OK. If that was what he wanted, that was fine with me. I told him it was fine because I had already decided also that I didn't want to have children with him because I felt he did not seem to understand the responsibilities of having children. I didn't feel I could rely on him. This was at 10:00 pm at our business. I came home. He came home at 4:00 am. When he did come home he didn't speak to me nor tell me where he'd been. Nothing. The only reason we are on speaking terms now is that I went in to talk to him. He'd changed his mind. He didn't want to get a divorce. Frankly, I don't really care anymore. Right now I just want to focus on protecting myself emotionally from him. Obviously, my problems here are deep. But, quite frankly, I don't think Phil McGraw or anybody else really has the right to ask or question whether or not I have tried every option before I decide to leave. The day he has the right to determine whether or not I have the right to leave is the day Phil McGraw lives everyday with me and my husband and gives us some daily couseling. When that day comes he can say anything he wants. Until then, I'll decide.

Violeta:To be honest, I really didn't understand the point you were trying to make in your reply to me, except that you obviously 'disagree' with what I have shared.I'm sorry you feel that way, but I make no amends as to how I feel as do the majority of the people that have replied to this thread.It is true, that only you know how much is enough...but I still say if more people practiced this in their marriages, we wouldn't have the divorce rate we have.The bottom line is, people have to work at and in a relationship...too many people just want to walk away. I say that in most cases, people are self-centered, selfish and have no concept of what the word 'committment' means.The bottom line is, I do believe you have to earn the right to leave a relationship and you have no right to do so until you can say you have turned over every stone and made every attempt...again...only Y0U know when and if you have done this.[censored] from TexasP.S.Why reprint my entire, original thread in your post, what purpose does it serve? I know what I said, in fact I see this alot on Marriage Builders

Violeta, Seems you have good reason to not trust your h, and once that trust is broken..it takes a long time to re-establish..and sometimes that trust can never be rebuilt.But your right in the fact that nobody has the right to decide for you..whats best for you..as my mother used to say to ppl who would try and tell her how to live her life.. "when you start supporting me financially, and supporting my kids then you earn the right to tell me how to raise them, and how we should live our life, until then you have no say so in what I do or they do unless it effects you personally"

Why reprint my entire, original thread in your post, what purpose does it serve? I know what I said, in fact I see this alot on Marriage Builders[/B][/QUOTE]i don't think this is intentional, but for newbies, if you hit the reply button, it just reprints the whole thing, and it can be a little disorienting. in fact, ive been around awhile, and i don't even know HOW this will look when it comes out.anyway, did dr phil mention whether major personalitly disorders can shorten the 'stone turning' period? i'd love to see if things can be worked out with my cheating husband, but he lies in EVERY area of his life. lies extensively. is clearly a sociopath (anti-social personality disorder, is what it's called in the DSM-IV, but he's just a supreme con-man). how long do i have to try to work things out? he's cheated and blamed me for it since right after we were married, and now that he's claiming he wants me back, i'm a little wary, obviously. oh well, this has been something to think about, anyway. thanks for sharing!julie

Julie:Thanks for letting me know why so many times I see replies/responses re-printed...I really didn't understand what purpose this served.Concerning your situation, I might encourage you to get Dr. Phil's book entitled RELATIONSHIP RESCUE. It was even being sold in WalMart.Your husband's desire to reconcile with you and your hesitancy is normal....I have come to find out that men tend to want to just forgive/forget and let's go on...while a woman who has been hurt/abused takes a long time to rebuild trust.Remember, Men are from Mars, but Women are from Venus.Blessings upon you![censored] from Texas

Hi [censored],After I just posted on EN board that I thought there was some progress, I finally let it all go. he finally did one too many things and I have given up, I have decided to call it quits. After Thursday, when he informed me that he wasn't ready to file because he didn't have the money, would need to do a change of address, and wanted to get me comfortable with the idea that he wasn't a "bad guy" and all, it left me in shock, he was waiting for HIS CONVENIENCE to end the marriage. He keeps playing me to all ends, telling me things that give me a bit of hope, then just not doing anything he said. To think, I spent lots of money on books trying to work on this relationship and he's been lying to me for years and years. I don't have any idea what is true at this point, to know that he didn't continue with his spur of the moment divorce in 3/98 because he couldn't afford it financially and living a lie the past 2.5 years just floors me. I knew he wasn't very emotional, but a cold blooded jerk is a real eye opener. I changed the locks on the doors tonight, I have admitted defeat. I deserve better, and I am going to try and work through Life Strategies and get myself back on track. I have the support of the neighbors, the same neighbors that H thought we're always his special friends. I will have to talk with a lawyer and get things straightened out legally, but I have a direction in which to go now.Lori

LoriYour situation sounds like mine. I hung on for almost 4 years, clinging to every shred of hope my wife gave me....but she never followed through.I guess she never really wanted reconciliation, but she said she wouldn't divorce me. Now I see it was obvious she wanted me to be the 'bad guy'.So, like you; I finally gave up after 3 years and 10 months and filed for divorce. It wasn't God's will, but then again; He can not go against her will. Divorce breaks God's heart as much as it does ours.I feel for you, because I've walked that road.[censored] from Texas

Woah...I was reading your post and was like dang..thats my husband..he says one thing and then does something completely opposite.. I don't know what to believe anymore either he says he wants to save the marriage, but he's not willing to talk about it..all he wants are "details" to an affair I had..I am like it wasn't about sex..I told him..the thing this other man gave me that HE doesn't is he talks to me..He would open up and share things with me about himself, and allow me to share myself with him..(the same thing all my men friends have done over the years) but as soon as sex became an issue in the emotional I backed off..because thats NOT what I wanted..I couldn't handle it..to me sex and emotions didn't go together..sex was just a physical act that had nothing to do with how you felt about a person. And this OM accepted that and didn't push the sexual part of the relationship..he was happy just talking and sharing and getting to know each other..and be there when I needed a friend..which was when I freaked because I started wanting both..for the first time ever in my life..I wanted to be able to show someone physically how I felt about them emotionally..and this has really turned my life upside down because it goes against everything I ever learned or understood..and it scares the H*ll out of me..because it's something I have never experienced in my life..and I sit here in tears trying to figure out why I can't have this with my husband..and why he doesn't even try to understand..and when I try to talk to him and share with him it's like he doesn't care about what I am saying..if nots leading to sex..He says he'll look for a job in town..he doesn't..he said he'd take me on a date..he didn't..it's like he keeps giving me these little pieces of hope something to hang on to just to rip them away..and I'm tired of getting hurt..because of it..and I wonder if waiting a little longer is going to do any good..

Thorned Rose,I think the length of time that one keeps trying is variable for each person and relationship. [censored] took over 3 years, others have been working at this for 4. I'm at the point of quitting after a bit over a month. Yes, I wonder if it is too soon, but in my self realization workings, I realized it has been bad for so long, for not just myself, but the kids and my H. Yes, according to all the work I've looked into, we SHOULD be able to save this marriage, there are some problems that CAN be worked out. Knowing that my H is not willing to work at things, and the obvious pain that he has caused the kids has made my decision to quit a litle sooner than maybe would be advisable otherwise. We will have the time before a divorce becomes final to work on things, and I will try and do that as best that I can, but at the same time, I can't make him try, and realizing that has put me into a Plan B mode of action.I have to think of the kids, and what is best for them. Already the relationship between myself and the 13 year old is better, less conflicting emotions and tension. She's a strait A student and I certainly don't want to jeopardize her future by keeping so much tension and pain going. I have to admit that I had spent more time trying to appease the H than dealing with the kids... I realize that was wrong, it wasn't fair to them. I need to work on myself, and feel that can be done better in a Plan B situation where I'm not always trying to figure out what to do to meet H's needs when he won't even let me know what they are. Feel what works in *your* heart, and do what is best for yourself and the kids at this time. I feel like I had lost "me" and am now recapturing who I am. My kids are wonderful kids, isn't it awful to have such a disaster to make one realize that? Lori [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I didn't think I would be posting, but this is an interesting topic.Posted by Ben: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Marriage, by biblical terms, financial terms, or any other is a side by side.....in other words 50/50. The bottom line is the man and woman are equally responsilbe to eachother and the god of thier understanding.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree with [censored]- marriage IS a 100%/100%proposition or it is condemned to die.About "earning my right..." YES I have. There are no remorses, no regrets, not even complaints about what "my" soon-to-be-ex was, is or will be, or about what she did or did not or will do in her future with her life. We had some good (actually great) times but that page is over; at this point of time I am free to start a new relationship with anybody, anywhere... but even IF there was the slightest chance that she would want to come back, she is no longer the type of person that I want to associate with to share my life, my bed, my finances, my dreams.We must be able to walk away and move on when the time comes... trying to rekindle an old relationship only anchors us in the past. There is a life to be lived, new shores to be visited, new land to be conquered, new dreams to be fulfilled...Alex------------------ Live fully and always learn

This AlexThank you for your reply! I want you to know you said something that really helped and ministered to me.You said "Trying to rekindle an old relationship is staying anchored in the past"I still am having a hard time with this, concerning my former wife (I hate the term ex). We were divorced in March of this year after 33+ years of marriage and though I am engaged to a wonderful girl...I still have guilt/regrets that maybe I gave up too soon even though I waited 4 years before the divorce (separated 4 years).But, like you said about your soon to be ex, even though I might still have feelings for my former wife; she is no longer the person I want to share my bed, life, finances etc/etc with.I guess I need to really meditate on what you said and feel free to move on to a new relationship.[censored] from Texas

[censored],Just wanted to pop in and say "HI!" No clever insight...just greetings! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Mitzi

I think that little bit of info hit me too.. yes, I am still married..but..it's more he choose his job to travel and be gone away from the family (no thought or discussion w/ me) and I am tired of asking him to look for another job in town..when he has shown me many times in the past (7 years) that he doesn't want to do that..so I took the BIG step of telling him I don't want him to be here at all not even the one weekend a month when "he decides" to grant us w/ his presence here..I am tired of "sleeping" next to a complete stranger..I've told him if he'd like to us to date thats fine so we can get to know each other..but he'll have to find someplace else to stay after the date cause he's not going to be staying here!!! For me this was a BIG step because he's always been able to say the right things to hit my guilt buttons..and allow him to come home..but this time I didn't..and now he's mad..cause he's homeless and whatever..But I am looking at this way..He has wanted to be gone for the past nine years (even thought he swears he hasn't wanted to, but his actions have spoken VOLUMES over his words)..and hasn't wanted to be a part of this family..so I took control and finally made the decision..He doesn't want to be here..fine..he can find someplace else to stay..I'm tired of his lies..(to me they are lies..even though to him..they may not be..because he has said he'd look and he hasn't for whatever reason)