When we were young and in the dating game, how many opposite sex friends did we have/meet before we settled on our STBX/X?<P>I wonder because we don't want to make a REBOUND mistake.<P>So in order to avoid the rebound marriage,<BR>one has to meet how many POTENTIAL mates<BR>before selecting the right one?<P>Karenna went through about 10 on one of her posts between the X and her current.<P>how many should it be?<P>thl<P>

I've been pondering this, too. I have no idea and I certainly want to avoid all the heartache possible. No desire to go through this sort of emotional devastation ever again.<P>I'd love to hear from some others. Perhaps this question needs input from others who are building wonderful marriages at present instead of those of us who are in the aftermath of a marriage gone bad.<P>How do you know Mr/s right?

THL, <P>I am not sure there is a good answer for this one. When we were young and looking, we didn't have a lot of life experiences behind us. We maynot have had a really grounded idea of what we wanted in another person. It was kinda like, when we met somone who we "klicked" with , we thought they may be it, and perhaps tended to overlook other things. <BR>Now, we are older. We have kids, we are more grounded ourselves, we have a lot of life experiences under our belt. I believe now I have a much clearer vision of what I want next time around. <BR>For me, it is someone around my own age, with kids around my kids age. Somone who is very grounded, good self esteem, likes domestic stuff, doesn't drink much, no drugs, had a stable job and a love of animals. He must believe that a marriage is to be cherished and would be honest and direct with me. I would want him to share the MB principles as well. I would like him to come from a stable and loving family and want the same for himself. <BR>Now, having said all of that, maybe I would need to date many men to find it. Or there just might be more men out there at this point in their life to choose from as well. <BR>I dated 5 men after divorce. I am seeing one now, and have been exclusively since the end of March. <BR>Now I need the time. I am not interested in dating anyone else, but do not want to commit any farther yet. I do not think there is any timeframe, or # to date first, it is a matter of where you are in your own growing and what you want for yourself that matters most. <P>------------------<BR>Susan<p>[This message has been edited by sue (edited August 10, 2000).]

I don't think it's the number of people you date that will avoid the rebound situation. That may help, but I think taking the time to heal is most important. <P>Actually, I'm thinking that it probably takes 3 serious relationships to get it right. Most people will follow their hearts first and overlook potential problems when selecting a mate. <P>Then, if that doesn't work out, they will say 'no more. That caused too much hurt.' And they will follow their heads, making sure all the 'right' criteria are met regardelss of how strongly (or not) their feelings may be for the other person.<P>THEN, if that doesn't work out, there will need to be a lot of soul-searching and a lot of scrutinizng to make sure that the head and heart are in agreement about any potential mate.

Oww Oww, (SheRa has hand raised)<P> I will take a shot at this one for you Cinderella.<P> My H and I got married young we were both 19. Married 28 years now, no affairs ever, just blips in the road, some blips seemed bigger than others. But we have always been able to work through these, because I am a problem solver. <P> I'd say our biggest asset, has been the fact that we came from similar backrounds. My parents just celebrated their 52nd anniversary. His dad died when he was 13 but his mom never remarried, his parents were very happily married. <P> 15 years ago, H was going to a counselor for depression, work related, and we ended up talking about marriage. Most important thing I learned was that H cannot read my mind. I have to tell him what I need. We also took that personality test, and found out we were complete opposites. The counselor said that was good because we each offset the others weeknesses. I was the dreamer, he was the realist. He was impulsive, I was practical. <P> I guess the most important thing we have is that we are both committed to each other. <BR>We never looked outside the marriage for needs. We didn't always fill each others but we had something to cling to. I think its the idea of growing old together.<P> Neither of us has the interest to do anything entertaining without the other. He is a homebody, and so am I. We always bought things that meant family fun, boat, camping things, pool. We have always taken family vacations when we could afford them. Usually every 3 years. Disney World, Bahamas.<P> We have the same goals. We are now looking into buying a condo in Destin. So we have someplace to go whenever we get time off. <P> I have found, by visiting here, that our problems are fixable. Mainly because we do Love each other. That has never faltered. <P> Everyone here should watch "The Story of Us". That is our story. I tell people that in 28 years we have had years where we barely spoke, but those years went by and good ones followed.<P> Our kids are probably going to be gone in another few years, 23, 20, 13 so we spend alot of time thinking about where we want to be together when our nest is empty.<P> Problems, yep we had plenty. Crisis, well 2 years ago H was told he was going blind, and nothing could be done. Cataract, on his good eye. That one almost did us in. We were terrified. It is such a long story. But with much prayers, a good Opthamologist, and a great Retinal Specialist. That problem is now behind us. His vision is better than it was in his whole life now. <P> I have always been an optomistic person, I have always been a fighter, I have always known how blessed we are. I have Thanked God everyday for my life. <P> I tell people I know that are wanting to divorce to think about the history you will be losing. So many firsts, will be wiped out. <BR>You only experience your first child together, once. Your first new car, once. Your first new home, once. How can you give these things up because "You don't think your in love!". Find a way to be in love again!<BR>It had to be there once, get it back.<P> For better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, Till death do us part!!<P> I don't remember hearing "or until you don't think you love each other"!<P><BR> Wow, I feel great now, I am gonna call H and tell him I Love him!<P> Thanks Cinderella<BR> God bless Us Everyone<BR> Toni<P> <BR> <BR> <BR>

oops, browser posted this twice<BR> <BR> <BR> <p>[This message has been edited by SheRa (edited August 10, 2000).]

SheRa:<P>Thanks for your inspirational story. It's so good to hear what makes things work vs. what didn't.

THL,<P> Well, let's see...<BR> I dated about 10 men between xH and current bf (he calls me his fiancee~ no proposal, yet, lol). Of those 10, 2 were serious relationships. I broke off with the 1st one, because he had some serious drinking problems. Not to mention, he was a big time rebound relationship, for me.<BR> <BR> I think that the only good that comes from divorcing your x, is that you learn to pay attention to all those little nagging feelings and red flags. About 5 of the guys that I went out with didn't make it past the 3rd date, because of my gut instincts. Guess what, 2 were married (found out 'cause I hounded them...things didn't seem right), 1 was seperated (suposedly for a year...I found out he had only been sep for 2 months!!!), and 2 were only out for a *good* time. Not my style. <P> I really don't think it is the numbers that matter. We probably talk about numbers, because it really does seem like we will never find Mr/s Right. I think it seems that way, because we get really picky after getting blown out of the water by our xSpouses. But, that can be a really good thing, too. We know what we want, and what we *don't* want.<P> Mynabird

good points,<P>Sue posted a view that maturity and understanding will replace the inexperience.<BR>"I believe now I have a much clearer vision of what I want next time around."<BR>Good point, I didn't think of that point.<P>Mynabird posted an important point, "I think that the only good that comes from divorcing your x, is that you learn to pay attention to all those little nagging feelings and red flags."<P>Yes, I think we all went through some major sensitivity training, and can see interactions so much clearer that we SHOULD make a better decision the second time.<P>I'm just scared to death of a rebound relationship, and don't even want to think about it right now, but don't want to ignore a possibility.<P>just probing, thanks for the replies.<P>thl

This is an interesting topic. I dated about 4 men, nothing beyond 3 to 4 dates. Just figured out that we were different places in life, two were younger than me, too were older than me. I have been dating my current boyfriend about a year. It is true, that we can't read each others minds, I have to be much more explicit than I like to get my needs across. If I don't communicate them I can't expect them to be addressed.<P>I have no idea if he is the one. We have fun together, we compliment each other in many ways. We are both pretty independent people, but we enjoy our time together. I am not ready to get married, my divorce papers just arrived last week. I have been seperated from my ex for 2 years and I didn't date the first year. I went to therapy and started to develop a life w/out my husband in it. I became grounded and settled in to my knew singleness before I brought others into that.<P>I just took a 3 1/2 week trip to Europe w/my boyfriend and was ready to ditch him after spending 24 hours a day w/him for that long. I took a week and a half vacation from dating and just went out again yesterday. I needed that break. Traveling and spending that much time together is a test. Luckily Im seeing a guy who understands my knee jerk impulse to run from everything remotely scarey. He has given me space yet kept in touch so that I can figure out myself what I need. So far so good. Now if I could only get my dog to like him instead of be jealous of him. Oh well life is never simple. <P>G

Greetings THL,<P>I don't know that there is a magic number, but I have dated quite a few people, nothing past a few dates either. If they are too similar to my ex, they're outta here! <P>Only one semi-serious and I don't even understand that one yet.<P>I was with my ex for 11 years and didn't know what I know now. I still fear that I am going to want different things ten years from now again. I hope to find someone who I feel will grow with me and I won't be in this predicament again.<P>If you figure this magic number , let me know <P>Dana<BR>

Toni - Thank you for a wonderfully thoughtful and insightful post. I feel the same way about marriage and the committment it requires. I only wish my H had felt the same. Maybe we would still be married. I would have given anything to have been able to help him become the kind of person that could have honored his committment to our marriage.

See, what I really worry about is that we attracted to the same kind of person, as it is a subconscious/ slightly conscious connection.<P>I know already that I was sort of interested in two women, both of which are not very mentally on par with me on attitudes about life and work, and yet the connection was felt with everything but the intellect.<P>So I worry that we are attracted to similar people to our STBX/X because it is precisely those people who we are programmed to like.<P>I hate the new version of this puzzle. The old version was to figure out the STBX after 18 years, done that, now do it with a new person in 4 dates. Yikes, what are we, professionals now?<P>Seesh, I need more timethan that!<P>thl

"Karenna went through about 10 on one of her posts between the X and her current."<P>--Boy, I'd hate to be one of the people someone "went through"<P>"I believe now I have a much clearer vision of what I want next time around."<P>--And in 10 years, we will all laugh about how little we know right now. <P>Number of people, clearer vision, none of that will assure that a relationship stays together. Both people must have the will to be loving and do the work, even when they don't "feel" like it anymore. Toni provided a good example. There were times when they weren't "in love" but love still existed. <P>It has nothing to do with maturity. It is all a state of mind, whether it is one person or 1000 people you "go through". Most people get remarried when they want to be committed again, and probably end up with whoever happens to be around at the time, more or less. Whether they stay married depends on how they view commitment. Either they are only committed when it is fun and easy, or they are committed regardless of how fun it is. For Toni, and lots of others, their shared history is more important than feeling "in love" at the moment. Because they had the WILL to stick it out and struggle through that time (when so many others won't), they lived to see their marriage improve. My parent's marriage has been the same. Neither were angels. Both did things that others would definately divorce them for. For some reason, their will to stay together and work it out was stronger than their "need" to be "in love". They are my inspiration.<P>I'm not worried about being in a rebound relationship. What I am worried about is being "gone through" though. I don't plan on "going through" anyone, personally. I'd still be d@mned wary of anyone who initiated a divorce. They'd better be able to show me the scars from where they were beat up, and the counselor's bills. Cause just not feeling like staying married doesn't cut it.

One!

Do you ever wonder if the only reason we feel so strongly about the marriage vow/committment or "feel like it" is because many of us were left behind. Could our devotion suddenly have grown stronger because we now had a "cause" or something to fight for that energized our marriage and gave it life?

I think I feel so strongly about vows/commitment (regardless of temporary feelings) because it is obvious (from statistics and from experience) that finding someone new doesn't change all that much. Also, all the knowledge and experience about a particular relationship is completely thrown out the window with a divorce. Starting from scratch with someone new is a paramount waste of time (IMO) because you follow you wherever you go. Dynamics repeat themselves. Maybe to a lesser degree, but it is still there. Better to just figure it out with one person.<P> Some of us have no choice. The ones who made the decision to divorce (no offense) have already decided that whatever it was they were going through was more important than their vows. So, there is no debate there.

Hey TS,<P>I just wante to say a couple of things and ask you some Q.<P>I have told you before that I really do admire you for the STRONG women that you are!<BR>(I only wish that I could be as strong as you are in your convictions!)<P>I do agree w/you and the fact that D'ing and going into a new relationship!.....You will always have problems w/no matter who you are w/!!<P>Let me ask you this tho.<P>Do you think that bc the person that filed and went on to D there sp is not a committed person and can't have the commitment for a marriage???<P>After 6 months of busting my [censored]....and trying to let my H know that he meant the world to me.........he still choose to move out!(He had and still has told me that he does love me,always will,loves my company and friendship.......so on and so on!)<BR>Yet saying this he still choose to leave!<P>Now..........after 3 months of him living somewhere else,and us not seeing eachother but only a couple of times......what am I supose to do?????<P>I asked him what it was that he wanted....asked him that what was his expectations........."I don't know,I haven't even thought about it"!!!<P>What????......he has had 3 months and hasn't thought about it!....I asked him did he think that I would live w/this arrangement for like the rest of my life???<P>He said ........."I don't know,haven't thought about it"<P>What???.......So I told him that I needed closer......told him that we both knew that he had no intention of moving back so what else is there?........Duh!!!... <P>TS......I am asking you should I have not filed and keep living My life in "LIMBO"?<P>Am I really any less of a person bc I made the decision for him?<P>Bc I did do this......does that imediatly make me a horrible non committed person,and that I didn't take my marriage vows serious?<BR>Does this now mean that I am not able to have another relationship or marriage,that would be successful?<P>Just curious to your thoughts!<P>Take it easy.<P>Gina <P><P>------------------<BR>"If we deny love that is given to us,if we refuse to give love because we fear pain or loss,then our lives will be empty,our loss greater!"-----Anonymous----

Gina,<P>I don't believe in divorce, except under very rare circumstances. Disappointment, hurt, even betrayal. These are facts of life to me. The other person has their own problems in life that have nothing to do with me. The goal of marriage (IMO) is not to be perfect, or be able to meet each others needs all of the time. It is to have another person to share life's ups and downs. Even if my spouse has lost faith, doesn't mean I have to. <P>My first husband had sex with over 20 women during our marriage. I could have sat here and said "noone is going to do that to me, and I deserve better", but I was not interested in teaching him a lesson. I did not divorce him. I wanted him to get help, I wanted us to get help. He did not want that, and divorced me. <P>My second ex didn't have the courage to work on himself either. After a year of enduring much of his anger and humiliation, I still did not divorce him. I think most people do try to re-create in marriage what they hoped to have in childhood. Unconditional love. None of us are perfect at it. Many parents cannot provide that kind of love. As adults, though, I cannot imagine any other framework for working out the issues that plague us. Moving onto someone new only delays facing these issues (IMO) because we get to tell our stories again, hide what we want, reveal what we want. In time, the same issues come up over and over and over. <P>If divorce is an option, there will always be the fear of opening up, of making mistakes, of being abandoned if we aren't perfect. <P>"Couples cannot resolve in any healthy way the universal issues of marriage--dependency and independency, dominance and submission, freedom and fidelity, for example--without the security of knowing that the act of struggling over these issues will not itself destroy the relationship"--The Road Less Travelled.<P>I haven't answered your question, though. I appreciate the gentle way you've posed your question. It is clear to me that alot of people have a fundamentally different approach to marriage than I do. Saying any more will probably just hurt you, and I don't want to do that. <P>I do believe that I am the only current poster here who has been divorced twice. After my first divorce, I was just as hopeful as many of you. My second ex and I supposedly did all the "right" things. Dated for two years, went to pre-marital counseling, etc. I know that if I were to get remarried, and was divorced again, I would most certainly end my life. THAT is how much I am opposed to divorce. I would rather die than go through this again.<P>Best wishes,<BR>TS<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited August 17, 2000).]

TS,<BR> <BR> My marriage is working, because my H and I took our vows seriously, and we are committed to each other. Or, it could be that the idea of moving on was never an option we considered. I asked him the other day why he has never cheated, (we know many people who have). His reply was that he never wanted to, never had a desire to, and he has always loved me. Those feeling are mutual, and that is wonderful for us. <P> I tell my H that every post on here begins the same. "My H/W says they are no longer in love with me." Then I tell him, that if he every said that to me, I would say, "Too freaking bad Dear, I suggest you get over it and find a reason to love me again." But is that realistic. <P> My parents have been married 53 years, they are in their late 70's. They have the worst marriage I have ever seen. They should have divorced years ago. They love each other, they just can't stand each other. Figure that out.<P> My sister has been married 32 years, if you ask her is she happy and in love, she will say , "Yes,I truly am". But her H used to beat her. Why? Because she tried to make him stay home instead of going to his girlfriends. He finally left the OW years ago and is now a good H. She saved the marriage, but at what cost to herself. She wasted so many years of "her" life on him. <P> My marriage works because I learned from so many others mistakes. <P> I have had many friends who have worked and worked to try to resolve differences. They went the extra mile to save the marriage. Yet in the end it failed. They took thier vows seriously but their spouses didn't.<P> Some of them have remarried, one in particular has now been remarried for 14 years. And IMO this is one of the best marriages I have ever seen. Vey loving and very committed. <P> I feel the spouse who took the vows seriously the first time, will easily be able to make that commitment again. Will they find the right person this time? Who knows, lifes a crap shoot. We could be dead tomorrow.<P> We learn from our mistakes, we are not doomed to repeat them. Most of the people I have met here, deserve to be loved again and unconditionally. The fear of another failure would never allow that to happen again.<P> Don't close your heart<P>It is better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all (ok, i know that was corny, but it is true.)<P> Toni<P><BR> <P> <P> <p>[This message has been edited by SheRa (edited August 17, 2000).]

<B>TS,</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't believe in divorce, except under very rare circumstances. Disappointment, hurt, even betrayal. These are facts of life to me. The other person has their own problems in life that have nothing to do with me. The goal of marriage (IMO) is not to be perfect, or be able to meet each others needs all of the time. It is to have another person to share life's ups and downs. Even if my spouse has lost faith, doesn't mean I have to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Gosh,TS........I couldn't have said any of that better!.....I so agree w/you!!<BR>You are absolutly right!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My second ex didn't have the courage to work on himself either. After a year of enduring much of his anger and humiliation, I still did not divorce him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>When you were going through all of this.....were you to still living together or did he move out?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Moving onto someone new only delays facing these issues (IMO) because we get to tell our stories again, hide what we want, reveal what we want. In time, the same issues come up over and over and over.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Once again I do really agree w/you!<BR>I have told you before and I will say it again that I really value your opinions and thoughts on this!.....(I really like your convictions and your morals!)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I haven't answered your question, though. I appreciate the gentle way you've posed your question. It is clear to me that alot of people have a fundamentally different approach to marriage than I do. Saying any more will probably just hurt you, and I don't want to do that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It is ok that you didn't answer my Q....and I wasn't trying to be gentle....I was just talking the way I normally do!<P>I believe that you are a wonderful very caring women and I appreciate the fact that you don't want to say anything to hurt me!<BR>(thanks.......but I really wouldn't be asking these Q to you If I didn't want your opinion!!)<P>Hey,I am a big girl and can handle different opinions!...(ok,maybe sometimes!....LOL)<P>Yes....I would say that we all do have a different apparoach to marriage.<BR>But I also know that we all have to live w/ourselves and have to be able to sleep at night for the way that we behaved,contributed,to the down fall of our marriages!<P>Now,I do know for a fact that you are not the only one on a second marriage.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I know that if I were to get remarried, and was divorced again, I would most certainly end my life. THAT is how much I am opposed to divorce. I would rather die than go through this again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>TS,I would hope that you would never have to go through that a 3 time!<BR>(I would sorely miss you on here!!!!)<P>But let me ask you this..........is it the actually D in of it's self?.....Or is it the pain,rejection and abandonment issues that make you not aprove of it??<P>I will say this........I have battled back and forth for the last 10 months....about my actions and the way that I treated my H,but the one difference w/us (my H and I) is the fact that I came from a religious back ground he did not.<BR>I come from a wonderful supportive,"Beaver Cleaver" kind of family........he did not!<BR>I wanted for him to get help.......(even told me that he knew that he needed counceling but wasn't gonna do it!)......gee thanks hon,I guess that my self and your children are not that important. <P>I am actually grateful that this happen!<BR>Out of all of this pain and rejection that I have had to face the greatest thing has come out of it!!!<P>He is actually a FATHER now,for 8 years he has never really been around!<BR>He is finally being the Daddy and Father that he should have been all along!<BR>He has spent more time w/them after he moved out than he ever has!!!<P>Now,I ask you isn't that better for the children to finally have a father???<BR>(Even if that means not living in the same house w/their mother?)<P>I do appreciate your thoughts!<P>Take it easy!<P>Gina <P><BR><P>------------------<BR>"If we deny love that is given to us,if we refuse to give love because we fear pain or loss,then our lives will be empty,our loss greater!"-----Anonymous----

Hi Gina,<P>My ex moved out two weeks after my confession. Up until the time he moved out, he stayed with friends. We never lived together again. <P>It is not the rejection I am suffering most from, although that does hurt too. What sticks in my brain is all of the awful things he said to me that year. What also bothers me are the sacrifices I had made during my marriage and during the time *I* was trying to save our marriage, just to have it all end.<P>I do feel like a "marked" woman though, having had two divorces. I know people who are my age and have never been married. I think their dating options are much more desirable. For me personally, it doesn't much matter whose fault it is. Either I can't pick 'em, or there is some reason these men leave me. Either way, I'm screwed up.<P>Maybe I can't answer your question cause I don't know the answer myself. No matter what people say to make me feel better, I do feel like damaged goods. I never felt that way with earlier break-ups. My failures are public record, and I don't like that. If I met someone who had initiated a divorce, I'd have to wonder how easy it would be for them to initiate another. I have two female friends who initiated both of their divorces, and, as much as I like them, there is a certain level I do not trust them at.

<B>TS,</B><P>Man.......that is really rough!!<P>I do know the feeling about the "Marked" women.Even tho this will be my first.<BR>(and mind you it will be my last,I will not go through this again!!.....shoot maybe I wont ever get married,hell,I don't know!<BR>As much as I "Talk" about moving on and remarriage again,it does down right scare the [censored] out of me!!)<P>I absolutly hate the thought that at the school that I work at I will no longer be <BR>"Mrs Smith"........but "MS.Smith"....that does make me feel like a "Looser" a "Failure"<BR>but most of all a "Quitter"!!........<P>Did I give up??......yes,of course I did,do I like the fact that I did?.....Hell no!<BR>But my self worth,just my sanity was at stake!<P>I do understand what you feel about your girlfriends.....<P>Even tho people here have told you that you are a great women and have so much to offer,and to not think of your self as damaged goods......it is hard to not think about that in your self.(I do know.)<P>The one thing tho that I have found.......is <BR>if you believe that you are a Great Women,and worked your a@$# off to keep your marriages and did the best you can(it will show on the outside to others that you indeed have a lot to offer!!(all of this really doesn't mean that you are a bad person)<P>Most of all TS,I do know this if you continue to believe these things and show this on the outside to everyone to see,then they will believe it as well!!!!<P>I don't know think about it!<P>Thank you so much for talking w/me.....I really do admire you! Your strength just floors me!(I only wish that I had even half of the strength that you have!)<P>Take care!<P>Have a good day!<P>Gina <p>[This message has been edited by w.g.up.h (edited August 18, 2000).]