STILL NEED HELP with reply to doofus-TRY AGAIN

Marriage Builders

I have this ISTJ xh I am forced to deal with. I need help paying for French horn lessons for our daughter.

x is refusing to help.

Please bear in mind the fact that I gross $26K/year compared to his $90K. I pay about $600/month for tuition, chess, and transportation for son. Doofus pays about $900. D goes to a public school. Different children with different needs.

I have emailed x and he has replied giving me his refusal to help with lessons. I have enclosed the initial email, his reply, and my proposed reply to him.

Tell me what you think of my proposed reply......

My initial email requesting help

G did meet the requirements I set down for private horn lessons. She practiced much harder last 6 weeks. And she practiced some while
she was at home over the holidays.

Private lessons - at school, 1 day a week, during her band class time, are $15/week. Are you willing to help pay for these as they will
supplement her classwork?
------------------------------------------------
His response:

After talking with G about her lessons compaired to N karate I feel that if you did her lessons would be fair.

If I had all the money in the world is one thing but I do not. Ns karate lessons, in total, is about $115 per month.

I know that Gillians lessons are far less and even half of that is even less but I feel that if you could do her lessions would be fairer to all.

-------------------------------------------
My proposed response:

It is not economically feasible for me to do so. I did not ask in the past for help with ballet, dance, guitar, or other items. I received no assistance with soccer or softball until you offered. Nate's tuition and bus is over 27% of my gross income, not including Aftercare and chess. We split that. I don't receive help in paying for Nate's bus and that is approximately equal to karate.

These lessons affect Gillian's performance academically. You are not having to pay tuition for her.

Is $7.50 per week too much.

If it is, I may not be able to keep her in the lessons. Or I will need to tell her that I can afford a lesson every 2 weeks.

[ January 24, 2004, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: cinderella ]

Remember I'm better at stirring up trouble than fixing things --- but...

Doofus,

Respectfully requesting your assistence is far cheaper than a court battle to obtain more child support, since you can obviously afford to pay more. However, if you choose to remain oblivious to the needs of our child, I shall be forced to spend what money I do have for special lessons on legal fees to obtain more of your precious pocket change.

Of course, it's always a pleasure seeing you, so I'll just be enjoying that pleasure more frequently along with the magistrate.

Thanks for your time and cooperation.

Yada Yada Du hey

I realize it's a threat - but you are paying far more than your share here --- he needs to put out some cash....

Now the disclaimer - mine isn't even forking over the child support - so I don't have a clue how to convince one to pay more than that...

Blessings,

Jan

I think you should start out assuming he is negotiating in good faith, because it is always easier to go from that position to a harder line than in the reverse. It doesn't sound to me as if he has flat out refused to pay for the lessons, just says he thinks it is "fairer" if you pay for them.

So maybe something charming and pleasant about how if you yourself had all the money in the world you wouldn't be asking, and isn't it amazing how expensive kids can be. Then explain your budget constraints and ask how much he can pay toward the lessons (much more postive than "if".) Close with something about how nice it would be to settle this without having to involve the courts again (veiled threats can be amazingly effective.)

[ January 17, 2004, 05:34 AM: Message edited by: elspeth ]

I disagree about stating her financial position, he doesn't care.

I'd calculate all extra curriculars based on the differential in salary. Total family income is $116k of which mom's is 22%. Mom should pay 22% of all activities, dad 77%.
What's this about you paying all of after school care? What kind of lawyer did you have.
We split this according to income % above.
Start a new way of doing things before you are in bankruptcy.

Just to throw a monkey wrench into this, only to provoke discussion, not argument...

What about the POJA? Yeah, you are not married, but shouldn't you still seek a POJA if you are wanting him to pay for something, or to help pay for something?

Seriously, I know in my family, my grandmother went through this with her second husband. (She never divorced but did outlive three husbands.) His exW told his children that he didn't support them, but would cash the child support checks at a local bar. In fact, when one of the children was an adult, he confronted him with the failure to support and they drug out the box of cancelled checks showing what he spent and of course on the back was the location each check was cashed.

Now, Cinderella, I'm not saying you are doing this here by any stretch of the imagination, but you have to admit that it is quite possible for him to feel that these things are more than just for his children, and if he has no say in what activities the children are choosing, then he may resent having to pay for them.

So why not a POJA, if not about the activities, then an amount that is devoted to such extra curricular activities.

Isn't that fair to all parties, instead of just coming to him with, hey we want to start water polo, so we need... and I want you to pay for 88% of it or whatever.

Even if someone makes a lot more money, they often tend to pay more in taxes etc. Not to mention, if he doesn't have custody, he probably cannot deduct the child on his taxes, yet provides significant financial support. Maybe the two of you have an arrangement where you take turns claiming the child, I don't know, but I just wanted to share this from the perspective of the soon to be exH who makes a lot more than my wife, whose wife decided that she doesn't want to be my wife anymore, but still feels she has the right to be in my wallet.

I feel that if she cannot afford to care for my daughter, then perhaps she shouldn't seek custody, but ask for visitation.

What makes her more qualified, in fact, she works 6 days a week now to support her decision to leave the marriage. Doesn't seem like she has much time left to be mom.

I can work from home quite a bit now...

Tony

Cinders,

He makes $90k/yr and is balking at $15/week for music lessons for your child? He must feel like he is already getting fleeced. But if he only contributes $900/month currently, that doesn't quite add up.

See if you can get him to commit for just one month and take it from there. Unless he is living too extravagantly, he is not going to notice $15/week.

Be sure G. thanks him for his kindness after the first lesson.

Mike

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mike_married:
 Cinders,

He makes $90k/yr and is balking at $15/week for music lessons for your child? He must feel like he is already getting fleeced. But if he only contributes $900/month currently, that doesn't quite add up.

See if you can get him to commit for just one month and take it from there. Unless he is living too extravagantly, he is not going to notice $15/week.

Be sure G. thanks him for his kindness after the first lesson.

Mike <hr /></blockquote>Mike,

You and I know you can't just look at income. How much debt is there, etc.

If he makes 90K/year, I'm guessing he probably loses 40% of that to the tax man unless he has some deductions. Who claims the kids etc.

Of course deductions mean the money is being spent, so if he had 20K in mortgage interest, it might save him $6K in taxes, but still costs him $14K, etc...

That's why I get so burnt up sometimes by folks who say he makes X times more than I do...

Seems the people have spoken and say it is fair to tax higher incomes at higher percentages so he may have less of his hard earned money as a percentage. I know I feel this is unfair, to tax me more, and at a higher rate, just because I make more money.

Why not tax me at a lower rate, since the cost of the government supporting me for basic services is probably the same as supporting someone else. Of course, I drive more, so I'm happy to pay more fuel taxes, that's fair.

But to tax someone more on their income just because they make more, isn't fair.

Sorry for the rant... now back to your regular topic before you get hi-jacked by me.

Tony

Java,

We are talking about $15/week here that Cinders is asking her ex to invest in their child's education. The chances of someone making $90k/yr even noticing that amount of money coming from their account each week is miniscule.

I'll disagree with you on your belief that people making more money should be taxed at a lower rate. I paid around $95k last year in federal taxes alone, and I'm very happy to do that, and contribute more to charity.

I'm lucky to be living and working in a country where my hard work is rewarded, and I don't mind paying a large chunk of what I earn for the privilege. Yeah, it's a privilege.

Any money I "save" this year on Bush's asinine tax strategy is going straight to local youth programs.

Cinders... good luck.

Mike

Ok,

So before we get off in the weeds about income and taxes, let's look at the question of a POJA for these sorts of things.

So what if it is a big or a small part of his income, what is his say in these matters?

Tony

POJA: No spouse does anything the other spouse does not enthusiastically agree with, and in the case of not knowing errors on the side of doing nothing.

I’m not sure it is always wise to follow POJA when you are not married. POJA assumes the other person wants what is best for both parties. When two people are put asunder as in divorce, they are no longer one and the same, what’s good for one is often at odds with what’s good for another.

That said, there is no reason why Cinders can’t negotiate with her husband so they both get what they can live with.

I actually think Cinders letter isn’t bad, but I’m very new to this game. I also think the threat of going back to court is a good one. It is not unreasonable to expect children of a man making that kind of money to have private lessons in an instrument.

What if you asked their father to outline what skill and growth opportunities he expects his children to take advantage of, and how much he’s willing to contribute to them. If you could get a base figure, and allow him a veto power it may help. A three-week summer study to trip to Europe may be out of the question as far as he is concerned, but maybe a week of music day camp would be in order.

It’s hard because sometimes men and women get into power struggles. And for someone like me who is getting divorced because of fundamentally different values, I have to expect STBX and I will disagree most of the time on what is worth spending money on, and how much we spend, what the children will do and what they won’t do.

Sorry for the ramble. Sorry I don’t have a clue. But, I’m going to watch and learn from you experience, C.

I agree with elspeth, without the budget constaints and vailed threats.

Tell him how important it is to her and that you may not be able to do it without his help you are only looking for what is fair to DD.

Excuses and threats will not get you to POJA. Try the pleasant path first.

Cinderella - I am going through the same thing - my ex has decided that he would not contribute to extra activities - though it was approved by the court over a year ago that he would pay half of dance, flute, tutor.. Never happened - he did pay half of the costumes - and half of camp but that is it - all the while calling me a controlling money grubbing b*tch - so now when he doesn't want to sit down and go over it - and thinks that he is total in the right because they don't want to see him - he wants to talk to his attorney - ok well he doesn't have one - so my attorney is waiting for his to call - but in the meantime - I have figured out -- he owes me over 1000.00 for the last year or so - and he would have to pay me like 1400.00 a year - and actually have the child support recalculated because his overtime was never included - - when if he had just kept his mouth shut - he would only be paying me $400 extra - but no he has to stress me out all the more - so I guess what I am trying to say is - you have to decide whether the 15$ a week is really worth all of the aggravation that the fighting back and forth is gonna cause you and or your children - I wasn't sure that $400.00 was for me - but when I sat down and figured all of the other stuff - and his pompous attitude - and him still putting the blame on me for everything when he in fact has done it all - I have decided that yup to me it is worth it - it is worth going to court - it is worth hiring a lawyer so I don't have to talk to him anymore - and he gets all of his facts correct.,....

Your royal majesty,

First, let me say that I somewhat agree with Java that you can't really compare "income to income" because no matter who does it, one of the ex-spouses always thinks the other ex-spouse is making "hand over fist" and has no expenses. In real life, we both know, though, that his earning potential is higher than yours, and you custody. It has been my experience that the ex who has custody spends A LOT of their expendible income on things for the kids (like new $90 shoes, lessons, clothes, etc.) that is stuff that is not always obvious to the non-custodial parent. The ex without custody usually pays whatever the CS dollar amount is, pays for a few extras here and there, and thinks they are being more than fair and reasonable. My guess is that the ex without the kids just doesn't usually realize all the little costs that are involved in raising children. (BTW, Java, just for your benefit, it can just as easily be a WW who leaves her kids for the other, and the H is the one who realizes all the little expenses).

Anyway, your highness, I suspect that doofus is just clueless about all the little things you pay for. When I read his response, what he's saying is: "I pay for N's karate lessons, which are $115/mo--why don't you pay for G's lessons which are only $60/mo?" Seriously, he probably thinks he's being quite generous letting you pay for the HALF PRICE lessons! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

In your own loving and royal way, why don't you just reply to him using your best facts and figures and logic? "I understand that G's lessons would be half the price of N's karate; however, as a parent-team we gave her the challenge to practice more and (hit this goal), and she did it. I am not financially able to absorb the entire cost of our joint challenge since I already pay for bus, tuition, and chess, and that is the limit of what my income can afford. Can we please split this cost 50/50 and each reward our D for attaining her goal?"

CJ

Let me QUANTIFY this: Doofus makes $90K a year. He pays $900 a month for one child, right?
Are you saying that his TOTAL child support is only 10 fricking percent??!
That's BS.
If so, then it's time for a RE-CALCULATION for child support.
I had 20 percent for one child and 27 percent for 2 children.
Just a thought..
Harold

I think CJ's solution is the best. I know my x, who pays me cs, always griped about paying for anything extra like camps and such. SHe always felt that she had no say in the matter and I was just signing them up for stuff.

It seemed to go better when I explained to her, that I was only doing things that we had always done in the past.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MadMaXX69:
 Let me QUANTIFY this: Doofus makes $90K a year. He pays $900 a month for one child, right?
Are you saying that his TOTAL child support is only 10 fricking percent??!
That's BS.
If so, then it's time for a RE-CALCULATION for child support.
I had 20 percent for one child and 27 percent for 2 children.
Just a thought..
Harold <hr /></blockquote>Harold,

Depends on the state, I'm in Illinois and I would pay 20% of after tax income (Yes after tax) and I would be paying a bit more than that $900/month you see there.

Kinda gives you an idea of what kind of bite taxes take out of my check, only to become worse if I cannot deduct my daughter as a dependant.

I don't know how other states do it, but here in IL it is 20% net, not 20% of gross.

FWIW,

Tony

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
 Your royal majesty,

First, let me say that I somewhat agree with Java that you can't really compare "income to income" because no matter who does it, one of the ex-spouses always thinks the other ex-spouse is making "hand over fist" and has no expenses. In real life, we both know, though, that his earning potential is higher than yours, and you custody. It has been my experience that the ex who has custody spends A LOT of their expendible income on things for the kids (like new $90 shoes, lessons, clothes, etc.) that is stuff that is not always obvious to the non-custodial parent. The ex without custody usually pays whatever the CS dollar amount is, pays for a few extras here and there, and thinks they are being more than fair and reasonable. My guess is that the ex without the kids just doesn't usually realize all the little costs that are involved in raising children. (BTW, Java, just for your benefit, it can just as easily be a WW who leaves her kids for the other, and the H is the one who realizes all the little expenses).

Anyway, your highness, I suspect that doofus is just clueless about all the little things you pay for. When I read his response, what he's saying is: "I pay for N's karate lessons, which are $115/mo--why don't you pay for G's lessons which are only $60/mo?" Seriously, he probably thinks he's being quite generous letting you pay for the HALF PRICE lessons! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

In your own loving and royal way, why don't you just reply to him using your best facts and figures and logic? "I understand that G's lessons would be half the price of N's karate; however, as a parent-team we gave her the challenge to practice more and (hit this goal), and she did it. I am not financially able to absorb the entire cost of our joint challenge since I already pay for bus, tuition, and chess, and that is the limit of what my income can afford. Can we please split this cost 50/50 and each reward our D for attaining her goal?"

CJ <hr /></blockquote>You have to understand java... There is no way I'd pay for $90 shoes unless a doctor prescribed them. Kids just wear them out too quickly, and I'm not brand snobby by any stretch of the imagination. But then, I make good money and drive a 10 year old car I paid cash for, last year.

So if my WW spends all of her money on brand name merchandise and says I'm not contributing enough is that really true. What if I believe the Wal*Mart clothes are all she really needs, and not GapKids.

I guess I have heartburn with either making a unilateral decision.

So I'm a bad father because I believe Wal*Mart clothes are sufficient? Extreme example I understand, and I still hold out hope that WW and I resolve such issues as husband and wife instead of in a courtroom.

Tony

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
 You have to understand java... There is no way I'd pay for $90 shoes unless a doctor prescribed them. Kids just wear them out too quickly, and I'm not brand snobby by any stretch of the imagination. But then, I make good money and drive a 10 year old car I paid cash for, last year.<hr /></blockquote>Java, you sound like me. heehee. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

First, just so you know, my kids are 14yo and 17yo (pray for me!), so it's a little different than younger children. Second, they each have little jobs and can earn their own money. My 17yo SON prefers $90 shoes to PayLess brand, so I chip in the amount a PayLess pair would cost, and he covers the rest. Also, he wears them for about 2 years, so that the actual investment is $45/year and to him, that's worth it.

Like you, I own my car--1996 Ford Taurus, the perfect "mom taxi". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> However, unlike you, I don't make "good money". I just find it a better investment to own and not have the debt.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> So if my WW spends all of her money on brand name merchandise and says I'm not contributing enough is that really true. What if I believe the Wal*Mart clothes are all she really needs, and not GapKids... So I'm a bad father because I believe Wal*Mart clothes are sufficient? <hr /></blockquote>Well, Tony, different people reach different arrangements. Some parents may believe that they want to provide GapKids for their children and are willing to work hard to do so. Others believe that WalMart is fine and does the job perfectly well. In my arrangement, I provide the kids with the WalMart level, and my exH gets them the brand name stuff if he believes they need them. If the KIDS want the brand name stuff, then THEY pay for it. But I don't think "brand name vs WalMart" is the issue here with the Princess and her doofus.

In this instance, their daughter was told, "If you do this, this, and this, we will get you these lessons" and the child did what she needed to do to earn the lessons, and now dad is not willing to contribute to the lessons.

Personally, I think there are two parts to his response: 1) he just does not "get" all the little expenses that the Princess pays for merely because the children are in her household, and 2) he may figure that the lessons are cheap so she can afford them. My point was not about whether or not to buy $90 shoes--it was that $90 expenses just pop up all the time that the non-custodial parent is not aware of...like school trips, bake sales, buying a specific book for literature class, birthday parties, etc. IMHO, child support contributes toward food, shelter, and necessities of life--and sometimes the extra expenses are just that: EXTRA.

BTW, are you still on-call??

CJ

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
 [QUOTE]

BTW, are you still on-call??

CJ <hr /></blockquote>72 more hours of on-call. Like I said somewhere, this is an 8 day week of on-call because of MLK day.

Of course WW didn't want to swap weekends, so the first time I've had my daughter in two weeks and I've been on call. I was out until 9:30PM last night (that was my early night this week, Monday was until 4AM Tuesday AM), and the only reason I'm on the comptuer now is because I may be going out again...

Since my on-call rotation is a 5 week rotation, there will be the occassional weekend where I have both custody and on-call unless I can get a co-worker to switch out with me.

When I get more time, I'll see who promised the lessons if the child did something, as I don't recall, and don't have the mental headroom right now to process anything else.

Tony

[ January 17, 2004, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]

I would agree that there is no POJA. When you are divorced, one stands over the other. The dominant person oversees the recessive partner (personality, finances, etc). Your X is standing on the belief that he thinks he is doing all that he should. Nothing is going to change the mind of a self-centered man. He really is not looking into the interest of the child, just the $$ that is going out the door.

My X doesn't see that I pay for all the toothpaste, toilet paper, etc. for 4 kids here, 3 are adults. (17,20,21,25). He pays me childsupport for only 1 child, and that is not getting it. I make no money for I am on medical because of his injuring my shoulder with his ballistic behavior. When I ask him to pay for something of the kids, he frowns and gives me a why comment?

Yes, he has his own business, so there is no way that the lawyer could get his finding of money that he really makes. Yes, he makes good money, and I ($0).

All you could state in a letter is put everything own, say this is for the childrens education, interest, becoming a well rounded adult. You could state that facts, that groceries, paper products, clothing, etc. and put approximately costs of the itemized areas.

If he really cared, he would just say, yes I will help. And with the figures say, I will give X amount of dollars to support the childs future. But I see this man as only looking out for his selfish needs, and nothing else. Good luck. But the crux of it is, you need to put it all on paper, and if need to, take him back to court.

Also, there is in some states, that the X is responsible for paying for the childs college. I just found this out in one of my counseling sessions. The one that makes the larger income. Something that you could talk to someone about. Good luck Hon.

I've been working overtime this week and just haven't gotten back to you.

Doofus does pay $1300/month child support - no increases in over 5 years. No provisions to split these costs or before or after school provisions were in the decree as the children weren't doing these things at the time of the divorce. It didn't dawn on me to include it. My atty didn't bring it up. And doofus didn't offer.

His wife works and earns about $35k. They rent a 3-br apt. Two cars are paid for. I gave him $42K at the time of the divorce to pay off bills he had run up while we were married and for cash on the house to get a quit claim deed.

He is currently threatening to take son out of karate at the end of the month if the child doesn't practice. Nate just failed his brown belt test - all of his kadas. I encourage him to practice. His father encourages him to practice. But we can't make him do it.

If he doesn't have to pay for karate, I guess he might help to pay for French horn lessons.

School uniform for son is $25-29 for a shirt, $29 for pants, shoes are $30-40. As for daughter and me, it's TJ Maxx, consignment, or used. Occaisionally Target. That's all I can afford.

Right now, I need new tires for the car, and the VCR died. Anybody want to come paint a house or repair a stone wall? I can paint interiors but not the trim on the eaves of the house.

This is not the life I had a contract for.

[ January 17, 2004, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: cinderella ]

I got my Divorce in Alaska - they take their caculated CSED Amounts right off the top - no 'net' income enters into it.
I do know different states do have different rules though.
$1300 a month; sounds like Doofus is getting off fairly light.
HOWEVER, and let me say this: no amount of money can restore the love and respect to shattered hearts and lives by a Divorce! None whatsoever! Everyone loses in a Divorce, except the Lawyers. Kids suffer the worst of all - right along with the Betrayed Spouse.
JMHO.
Harold

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MadMaXX69:
 I got my Divorce in Alaska - they take their caculated CSED Amounts right off the top - no 'net' income enters into it.
I do know different states do have different rules though.
$1300 a month; sounds like Doofus is getting off fairly light.
HOWEVER, and let me say this: no amount of money can restore the love and respect to shattered hearts and lives by a Divorce! None whatsoever! Everyone loses in a Divorce, except the Lawyers. Kids suffer the worst of all - right along with the Betrayed Spouse.
JMHO.
Harold <hr /></blockquote>And now you understand why I'm so against divorce. I didn't want it, I didn't ask my wife to have an affair, and now I face a court telling me that I have to give her my child most of the time and give her money to raise my child, and I'll have very little say over what happens.

Yeah, I'm a little bitter!

Tony

Tony, if your marriage can not be saved, and I hope it can, be sure your attorney is good and press for all the time you can get with your child. Maybe you can manage 50/50. There are some here who have managed that.

As for me, I knew I was dealing with someone who had earlier said he did not believe in getting mad, he believes in getting even. I let him have joint custody but it is worded so that I have sole authority to make all the decisions about child-stuff, as long as I keep him informed.

I go well beyond that. I try to keep him informed before I make decisions, to give him some input. But I can't stand the man.

I guess I'll never like him. Probably never should have liked him.

[ January 17, 2004, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: cinderella ]

Those of you who get lots of child support a month are lucky. I am supposed to get $603 a month for 3 children. (My ex quit his job the day after he got served with divorce papers) Most months I don't get the entire amount. For example, this month I've only gotten $136.75. But as long as he makes an attempt, not much will be done. He provides nothing extra either. No insurance, no help on medical bills, no help with extra activities. My huband and I pay for all of that ourselves, and my husband put my kids on his insurance or else there would still be none.

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mitzi, I know I am lucky. But I am peeved. Even with just his salary, after child support and tuition, he still has more money to spend than me. And he would begrudge his daughter $30.

I do tell people that I am lucky that he pays his child support on time. And in full.

But, I was quite content living a child free life. I had accepted that. The first child was his choice. I would have been fine without children. The second child was conceived because I did not want to have only one child. I wanted none or more than one.

Everything about the relationship has always been done the way he wanted it. I feel I haave had little say in ANYTHING.

He didn't want me to work after the first child was born. Guilted me on that. Then he decided he wasn't happy. Guilted me on that. Then he got a divorce. Because he said I couldn't meet ONE of his emotional needs. And he has tried to guilt me on that. He thinks I play mind games with him. Actually, I'm a just a hard-trying ADD-adult. And he guilts me about those behaviors.

And now he tries this stunt.

And now, even more recently, he wants to take son out of karate.

GGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!

First of all, I want to say that being a single parent has to be tough, and I really sympathize with you.

I think you are a little off-base on expecting Doofus to help you pay for these lessons (especially considering he is already solely paying for Karate lessons). From everything I have read, you are the one that had the agreement and requirements with your daughter.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />G did meet the requirements I set down for private horn lessons. <hr /></blockquote>Also, you may want to look at the income disparity a little differently because it MAY not be as great as you feel it is.

$90.000
21,000 IRS
1,380 Karate
15,600 Child Support
$52,020 After tax, childcare, Karate

$26,000
15,600 Child Support
41,600 Income with Child Support

I did not list any IRS for you because with claiming the children, child tax credits, earned income credit, etc. I have seen cases where the filer actually got more back than they paid in. I just don't know what your tax bill is.

Just for the record, his current wife's salary has absolutely nothing to do with child support.

If it is only $15 for him (as many here have said), it is ONLY $15 for you. I personally don't feel you have any choice but to suck it up and pay for the lessons that you promised.

MHO is you are picking a fight that is really not worth fighting ($30.00/month). Choose your battles wisely.

Becontent,

Thanks for looking at a possibility of what the numbers could be.

Remember, the spouse receiving CS doesn't pay tax on that money either, IIRC. So in this case, only the $26K is taxed, and that probably at 15% (or are the rates lower now)

Of course, both will pay FICA at ~ 7.65% and I don't know if it is figured in these calculations.

I can tell you this. Uncle Sam and the state of IL get about 60% of my overtime pay, indicating that my marginal tax rate for every new dollar I earn is about 40% when you figure, fed income tax, FICA and state income tax. Of course, that is after about 15% of that money goes into 401K and ESPP. The 401K is pre-tax money and the ESPP is after-tax money, FWIW.

So I have some empathy for the mom's struggling to make it on lower salaries, and I know what that is like because the Army didn't pay squat when I was in. My salary now is much higher, but I get to keep much less of it, so I don't buy into the argument that I have a lot more because of what I see on my pay statement every two weeks.

Not to mention I doubt I'll see much from that ~7.65% FICA when SSI is broke by the time I'm ready to retire. So that explains why I'm trying to put 20% back in 401K, IRA and individual stock purchases.

What's my reward for trying to save and look to the future? Giving up half of it to my WW who simply cannot see her being happy with me in the future.

Yes, I'm still bitter.

Tony

Jane-Elise,

I can completely understand why you're upset. When I read some of the posts about how much child support is received and how much help is given, it pi$$es me off! Not at you all but at my ex! He is a complete jerk where my kids are concerned. One time we saw him at a small convenience store. My youngest ran over to him and asked him if he would buy him a candy bar. My ex said "No, get your mom to do that" He doesn't even buy for them at birthdays or Christmas. Can't even take time out of his busy schedule to see them. It just really irks me!!

I hope this does work out for you so that your D can take the lessons. Keep kids busy and they stay out of trouble!!

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by becontent:
Also, you may want to look at the income disparity a little differently because it MAY not be as great as you feel it is.

$90.000
21,000 IRS
1,380 Karate
15,600 Child Support
$52,020 After tax, childcare, Karate

$26,000
15,600 Child Support
41,600 Income with Child Support<hr /></blockquote>Oh, but becontent, you are missing a GIGANTIC piece of this puzzle. The $52K after tax, CS and karate, he gets to keep and spend on himself and his new wife...two adult people. The $41K income with CS needs to support two elementary age children and an adult. PLUS you did not include expenses on the $41k side like you did on the $52K side: Daily school lunches, bus/transportation, after-school care, monthly cost of school supplies and bake sales and athletic/music events and field trips etc., monthly cost of clothing and coats and boots and hats and gloves, any sports teams and uniforms and equipment the kids may join, musical instruments and transportation to an from lessons and concerts, birthday parties and having friends over to go swimming, special "things" the kids are required to have for school (such as $95 scientific calculators), tuition and/or school costs, any costs associated with religious schooling (such as catechism or hebrew school) AND the books and materials that go along with that... As you can see, the expenses I've listed are purely those born exclusively by the custodial parent and if they are LUCKY they might be able to beg the other parent into paying for some of it. If we include all of THOSE expenses, let's compare the incomes again:

$90.000
<21,000> IRS
< 1,380> Karate
<15,600> Child Support
$52,020 After tax, CS, Karate

$26,000
15,600 Child Support
<900.00> school lunches ($50/mo/child)
<270.00> bus/transportation ($1.50/day 180days)
<1,440.00> after-school care ($80/mo/child)
<2,080.00> summer care ($130/wk/child 8 wk)
<900.00> school supplies and bake sales and athletic/music events and field trips etc. ($50/mo/child EASILY!)
<600.00> cost of clothing and coats and boots and hats and gloves ($300/child EASILY)
<400.00> sports teams and uniforms and equipment ($100/child to sign up, $100/uniforms and equipment 1 sport/child)
<600.00> musical instruments and transportation to an from lessons and concerts ($50 monthly just in instrument pymts!)
<720.00> birthday parties and having friends over to go swimming ($30/child/mo)
<800.00> special "things" the kids are required to have for school--such as $95 scientific calculators ($95/child 4mo/yr)
<1,000.00> tuition and/or school costs
<2,000.00> any costs associated with religious schooling (such as catechism or hebrew school) AND the books and materials that go along with religious school

$29,890 Income with Child Support

Bare in mind that this is all expenses relating to the children before having to consider groceries, phone bills, electricity and such--because BOTH households have to pay those kinds of bills and thus the point is moot. However, in this example, one household is paying for the little costs of raising children, and the other is paying child support and bitter.

I'm sorry. I just DO NOT buy into the argument that their incomes are anywhere near the same when it comes to expenses for the children.

CJ

I said the income disparity may not be as great as she thinks it is, and I will stand by that. I did not get into expenses of raising children and probably should have not included the karate lessons although it is something he is paying for that the state would never require. In Tennessee they go by the Child support guidelines pretty firmly.

$90,000 Salary of Doofus
21,000 IRS Bill
6,885 SS (7.65)
15,600 Child Support

$46,515 Income

$26,000 Salary of Cinderella
15,600 Child Support Income
-1,989 SS (7.65)

$39,611 Income

(and I see no reason that she does not qualify and get back more than she pays into the IRS with Child care credits, Child tax credits, and earned income credit). After standard deductions and exemptions, the tax on $26,000 would be about $1,000.00. Then child care expenses, child tax credits(I believe it is $1,000 per child), and earned income credits come off of that. Disclaimer: I am not a tax expert and don't wish to be one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

IMHO I have really seen no indication that Doofus is bitter. She herself says he pays on time and more than is required by law. He has 50/50 custody and exercises those rights. He is active in their lives, schooling, etc.. I know at one point she said he picked them up from school everyday which saved her afterschool care expenses.

As far as expenses go, I FEEL that the privilege of being the custodial parent does come at a cost. But note that I do call it a privilege. No doubt about that.

My thinking on this may be a little biased as my husband always paid for his son. If fact to this day, my stepson will tell you that ANYTHING that came up in which money was involved he was told to get it from his dad. However, when he came to live with us at 15, he/we never received one cent. You want to know why (partly), because it was a dream come true for my husband, and he never asked for a penny. He/we considered all the expenses the cost of his dream to have custody.

Back to her current dilema, there is nothing posted so far that shows any indication that the horn deal was anything but an agreement/deal between her and her daughter. She should have had financing worked out before making the deal. She needs to keep her end of the deal and give her the lessons she was promised. If he was not a part of the deal, I think she is way off base to be mad at Doofus or expect his assistance. Of course, if Doofus was a part of this agreement/deal, then he needs to pay half or whatever HE agreed to do.

Doofus was the one who announced that he would not pay part of before or after school care - not mandated in decree because it was not a reality at the time. He had said he would not pay for expenses he had initially agreed to pay for - unless I paid half - didn't matter that one year the cost went from $100 for the school year to $400 for the school hear. He started paying for a portion of some extracurriculars. And he balks on this. This is as important to her as chess club to son - more academically related - and he refuses this after demanding that I pay half of chess when he had not been expecting that from me.

He does not pay alimony. And he and wife are trying to save up for the downpayment on a house. What did he do with the $15K I gave him as payoff to get a quit-claim deed on the marital home? Buy his Volvo?

Most likely he smiled all the way to the Volvo dealership.

If he's getting anal about this, I say talk to the lawyer. See how the decree will be viewed by court and how their perceptions are. And we carry the brunt.

For example, my x went on and on about how he wants to pay for expensive private schools for my son and now that ow/w is preggers and about to drop bambino 2, he is suddenly saying he wants to send son to public kindergarten near by his house. He got in final papers, the final decision of son's education by way of saying he was responsible for all of son's educational expenses and was going on and on and on about paying for this 10k a year private school. Now the attitude change b/c of the golddigger-ho wife. Do I understand the volvo concept? Sure do.

And I am getting my lawyers to work on this to as xh is to consult with me and we are to decide together before any firm decision is made. I say no b/c this is also reason my child support is less. He figured in cost of tuition to be part of child support that he is paying to school NOT TO ME. We need legal rethink here.

what I really think we need is on the job accidents for these men who are living examples of why there should be retroactive birth control.

I've thought it over.

I think we all lost sight of the topic of this thread.

The topic is not whether or not he should help.
the topic is not whether or not he is paying enough CS.
The topic is not whether or not our incomes are comparably spent on child stuff.

The topic IS how can I reiterate my request and lead him to help his daughter without LBing.

So, have another go at it.

What do you think of my proposed response to his refusal to assist in paying for the lessons?

cinderella,

--After talking with G about her lessons compaired to N karate I feel that if you did her lessons would be fair.

TR--Did he also talk to son about HIS lessons??
if not why not?? And how is N's karate different than the music lessons?

--If I had all the money in the world is one thing but I do not. Ns karate lessons, in total, is about $115 per month.--

TR--Okay--so what does this have to do with D's Lesson's?? They are two different children with different abilites, does he feel one has a priority over the other?? like S will go further w/ Karate than D will w/ music??

--I know that Gillians lessons are far less and even half of that is even less but I feel that if you could do her lessions would be fairer to all.

TR--Fairer to who?? Him?? or the kids??

Doofus,

You seem to be comparing apples and oranges here--

Karate lessons, are an extra curicular activity--
the Music lesson's are to help her educationally just as the Private School meet's that need with Son--

I'm curious, and really need clarification here, I don't want to take this wrong, are you implying that because they aren't the same type of lessons, they aren't some how of equal importance to each of the children?

**Not sure about the above comment--sounds kind of disrepectful or even manipulative which is not the intent---but could it be worded differently??***

If I felt that I could do this on my own to make sure D could take these lessons--I would, and I would not feel the need to ask you--but because I can't, and because I understand how important they are for her education--I am asking for your help--

Please understand, I am not looking at trying to put a larger financial burden on you but only looking out for what I feel are the best 'needs' for our children--

How's that???

[ January 25, 2004, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]