Sex on the Second Date??? - Marriage Builders® Forums

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I'm asking you'all to basically either back me up and tell me I'm hopelessly out of step.

Remember Mr. Wonderful from last week? The "help with a new relationship" guy who I was a little impressed with and who I was starting to like? And one of your responses to me was to trust my instincts? Well my instincts are uncomfortable...

I sat next to him at D's school, and he asked me out to coffee. Cool--we met there and we each bought our own, and we talked for a couple hours. It was fun, and I got an initially positive feeling--and was pretty happy when he asked me out again and we set up for Sat. nite, 8:30pm to be casual and "hang out." At the end of the coffee-date, he went in for the kiss and tried to round second, but I just backed away and chalked it up to "nice try" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . During the week, he sent me some flowers (scoring some deposits--YAY), and we talked on the phone once for about 1 1/2 hours--all the while it seemed to me as if he was interested in me and what I had to say, etc. Likewise, I was impressed by his answers and was GREATLY looking forward to Saturday night!

Sooooo...last night was the big night. I was ready and beautiful, the house was cleaned up, the kids were squeaky clean (haha), and he showed up right on time wearing cute jeans and sandals! Here's the trouble though. Several times during the night he made comments about wanting to get into the bedroom, wanting to touch (edited physical areas), or other sexual comments. It made me uncomfortable! I wasn't uncomfortable because I'm a sexual prude, but it was like these constant little comments about sex, sex, sex--and I just thought it was INAPPROPRIATE!!!

Last night he had to get home to his kids, so it kind of just ended--but it left me feeling not so great. I thought about it during the day, coming to my own conclusion, and I decided that I am NOT comfortable with what happened, and that I need to speak up for how I really do feel. So that is not my issue. Here's my issue:

I was expecting that 42yo, divorced dating would be more mature and experienced then 20yo dating. I was expecting at least one or two dates just to get to know if we have the potential to get along,; then I'd start to feel a little "Woohoo!" and he would feel "Woohoo" for me; then we go to more serious dates like he'd take me to dinner or to a concert/show; then we'd hold hands and kiss; then he'd be a gentleman and let me take the lead on moving any further.

Is this unreasonable? I know it's 2004, but I'm not a piece of meet and I'm not looking for a quick thrill! I'm looking for someone who thinks I'm the bomb and respects me!

When I was first divorced, I remember thinking that when I chose to start dating I would have no trouble finding several gentlemen because I'm a wonderful person. Boy, was I shocked to discover that so many men were visual-based only and looking for a quick piece of meat!! Okay...I adjusted to that and found someone that I thought was a higher quality person, and boy am I shocked again! Am I totally naive to think that in 2004 dating is about a RELATIONSHIP and not about a quick roll in the hay?? Are people in 2004 expecting sex on the second date?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

CJ

CJ,

Of course I'm not even out on the dating scene yet, and don't intend to be for quite some time, but I absolutely DON'T think you are in the wrong here!!

I may end up single forever for my beliefs (a big, big, HUGE, BIG fear of mine! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ), but I truly belief if Mr. Right comes along, he will respect you enough to wait until YOU are ready. And if YOU aren't ready and he pushes you, then he isn't Mr. Right.

(And to throw this little laugh in, I didn't wait until M the first time around. I waited until I was 15 1/2 and had dated my boyfriend for about 5 months. If I find myself dating again, I have made a commitment to wait until M this time. Go ahead everyone...laugh! All my close friends/coworkers have. And I'm not a sexual prude either. But I truly believe God tells us to "wait" for a reason. It is what is best for us.)

So hang in there CJ. If this guy is the right one, he'll cool off. If he doesn't, then I don't think he's "it".

LL

I'm quite a bit younger than in my 40's and I will tell you even from my perspective Mr. Wonderful's behavior was tacky and juvenile. Yes, a lot of people do expect sex on the second date but it's not at all unusual for it not to happen and it's very inappropriate for someone to bring it up constantly like that. Like I said, it's highly tacky and says to me that the guy is either clueless at reading people or like you feared was just looking for a quick piece of *ss.

I would bring it up if it made you uncomfortable and you want to give this guy another chance. How he reacts will speak volumes about his character and give you a clue into what he's really after.

Dear CJ,
I think the vote is in ! You're absolutely fine to say "NO" !And further more even if the vote was otherwise, you still have the last say . It's your body after all, you owe it to NO ONE !
Unfortunately, times have changed some peoples expectations......TOO BAD !
I agree with NDuli2.... How he handles things when you are up front and explain how you feel, will pretty well firm things up.
This attitude seems quite common with young folk today, but at your more sophisticated position in life, you expect respect and certainly don't have to settle for anything less. Good luck with your plan, WA

Dear CJ-

You are definately not a prude. I am a few years younger than you and don't consider myself a prude either. You are not out of line with your feelings. Furthermore, even if you were a prude, it is your body and emotions we are talking about here.

I agree that you should give him another chance and you should be open about your feelings. How he responds will tell you what you need to do. It has been my experience that most men, even the good ones, are horn dogs in general. Sorry guys! Furthermore, I think many men are as uncomfortable with this dating thing as we are and as dumb as it sounds he may have been doing what he thought you wanted.

I wish you the best. You deserve it.

Take care and God bless!
K

Well, if I'm out-of-step, I couldn't care less. If I dated someone who pushed for sex on the second date, there wouldn't be a third one. My values are Biblically-based, and I'm not interested in pursuing a relationship with someone who doesn't share them, no matter how attractive that person might otherwise be.

I would rather remain single for the rest of my life than to compromise on my values.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by still reeling:
It has been my experience that most men, even the good ones, are horn dogs in general.<hr /></blockquote>Guilty as charged, but some of us have values, enough self-control to live by them, and enough respect for other people to show some restraint.

I can't even imagine sex, and especially not on the second date.
My thoughts are that people interested in sex or obsessed with body parts are typically immature.
I have yet to enter the dating scene, but I do think the same way as you.
Trust your instincts.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by newly:
 I can't even imagine sex<hr /></blockquote>Want me to draw you a picture to see if it jogs your memory? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Cindy, Cindy, Cindy you are so out of touch. If I don't get sex on the 1st date then I don't have a second one. Maybe that explains why I haven't really had a 1st or 2nd date..Hmmmm....

All seriousness aside now, to me that is a HUGE RED FLAG. This ain't high school, it's life and he obviously isn't striving for the same results as you. Throw the flowers in the trash, erase his number from your cell, and the next time he calls tell him and I quote "Kick rocks Beeeach".

Now Miss CJ I have a question for you. Why was this man at your house with your kids on the second date anyway?

CJ,

My vote is also that he was way out of line--but something you should consider is this--

was he 'expecting' to have sex with you? or was he just 'wanting' to have sex with you? as they are two different perspectives--

He *may* have been trying to find out if you would--and then decide if this is how she is--then will she have sex with everyone she dates?

Or

he may be a complete and total jerk and really think that having sex by the second date is what everyone does--especially boy's--because if he can't get you to have sex with him--then he must not be a *man*--and there must be something wrong with him--(a childish attitude, but a lot of adult boy's do think this way)

Please notice the term I used there--adult boy's
(and I'm sure many of the male's on this form will get upset when they read that, and that's okay) but it's what I have found to be true--

Boy's get upset if they don't get what they want--
Men accept that they don't always get what they want and are okay with it--because they respect you--

Boy's think only of themselves and what they can get from a girl--

Men think of the woman and what they can do to please her--because he's learned the value of who she is as person--

Boy's will take anything they can get for free--

Men are willing to pay any price to attain what they desire--

Take a look at Judah, Joseph's brother (Gen. 43) he was willing to take full responsibility and blame if he did not return his brother Benjamin home to their father--then what happened? He was put to the test--

Joseph had his servants put his gold cup in Benjamin's sack--and Judah offered himself and all of his brothers up to Joseph as slaves--Joseph's response was--No, That's not fair, the rest of you go home--and I'll just keep Benjamin here as my slave--and they would have to go home to their father and tell him his beloved son was taken into slavery--knowing this would kill their father--Judah learned to put another's happiness before his own--even if it cost him his own life--

And it's the same for girls--Boy's need to learn and understand the value of the girl--in order for them to say they 'really' love her--and know that she's more than a piece of meat, more than just a piece of property--to control--

CJ, Did your father step in and try and protect you from boy's you dated?? did he try and hold the boy's accountable? And did you try and stop him? (which is normal, as girls are designed to nurture, and not want to see other's suffer)especially not the boy they love--

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ThornedRose:
He *may* have been trying to find out if you would--and then decide if this is how she is--then will she have sex with everyone she dates?<hr /></blockquote>Sorry, but I just can't buy this. Any kind of "test" that undermines one's own credibility in this way is so foolish that it would call the man's judgment into question as much as the more obvious motivation for his overtures.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Please notice the term I used there--adult boy's (and I'm sure many of the male's on this form will get upset when they read that, and that's okay)...<hr /></blockquote>Oh, yeah, now you've done it! How dare you use an apostrophe in "boy's" and "male's" when you spell "girls" correctly without the apostrophe. If you must diss us on our maturity, couldn't you at least grant us the minor respect of correct grammar usage? Grrr... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (oops, bad acting, let me try again...) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> (there, that's better)

Every time I read TR's comments, I'm more amazed at the depth of her knowledge and her perceptiveness.

My friends and I have a better word for this:
ManChild. I was married to one of these. There immaturity shows (although they can act to hide it for some time).

Sadly, many of us need to break the pattern of being attracted to the ManChild. I can see it in friends when we go out. (And I'm sure there is a similar description for women too, I just don't know the term).

Holy Smoke! Apparently this is a topic near to a few hearts here! I posted at almost midnight and by 8:30am it's a coffee clatch!

lordslady--I don't think I'm wrong here either. In fact, that's the one thing I'm really positive about...this IS who I am and how I will conduct myself, so that's not going to change. The part I was a little unsure of was whether that's really the current "dating scene" expectation (cuz if so, I'm in TROUBLE!! Heehee). Anyway, I appreciate your suggestion that "...if he's the right guy he'll cool off" because to be honest with you my initial reaction was to just run away! I think it would be a more mature response to at least use WTFS format and tell him what I was thinking and feeling.

Nduli--You hit a very important nail on the head when you wrote: <blockquote>quote:<hr />it's highly tacky and says to me that the guy is either clueless at reading people or like you feared was just looking for a quick piece of *ss.<hr /></blockquote>In retrospect, I'm not positive which it is (clueless or quick piece) but he did already tell me that he is lacking in social development. I wonder if at least a piece of this puzzle is that HE is the one who's out-of-step, not me. I mean, in the '70's when we were both 20-something, some folks did expect sex on the second date (pre-herpes, pre-AIDS, but not pre-morals!)

Warm ashes--Howdy! Hey I am completely comfortable with saying no. That is me and that is my decision. I guess I was just surprised to run into this kind of behavior so early! Wasn't ready for that. I agree with the idea of stating my mind using WTFS "When you___, I Think___, I Feel___, So I'm going to ask___." That way I have voiced my concerns, and his reaction will be telltale. I guess I'm honestly concerned to even consider continuing with someone who would act like this AT ALL!! Clueless or not, I felt like this was pretty major disrespect to me.

still reeling--You know, I considered what you said when you wrote: <blockquote>quote:<hr />...I think many men are as uncomfortable with this dating thing as we are and as dumb as it sounds he may have been doing what he thought you wanted.<hr /></blockquote>I think that may be "conceivable" but unlikely, because I did not act like I wanted the attempt-to-round-second on the first date, nor did I act in any way like it was a positive thing when he kept pursuing the topic on the second date. It would make sense if he tried it once--thinking this is what women expect--but then once I backed away, stopped trying. The continuing to bring up sex when I was clearly NOT wanting it, was crossing the line to me. Yes, he could be clueless, it's true--but once someone says "NO" doesn't that mean stop??? Yes!!!

GDP--First...HI!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (waving) I'm glad to see you!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Anyway, I love what you wrote and how you think--and it is right in line with what I was thinking/expecting. Indeed, most men are horn dogs and have a strong sexual drive, but: <blockquote>quote:<hr />... some of us have values, enough self-control to live by them, and enough respect for other people to show some restraint. <hr /></blockquote>That's the thing, I think, that has caused me to want to just run away. We've only met on a dating level TWICE (of course, I've known him from D's school for about a year), and already he's behaving disrespectfully toward me to this degree!!!! That does NOT bode well with me!!!

newly--I can imagine sex. I do imagine it every now and then! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> But last time around I did things rather backwards (20+ yo, got sexual fast, got emotionally involved, and years later discovered abusive personality, disorders, etc.) , and this time around I wanted it to be entirely different. You know what they say, right? If it's the same, it'll be the same--if what you did isn't working, do it different! I'm just wondering how possible it is to become emotionally and spiritually intimate with a man who acts on this level??? My guess is that it's highly unlikely!!!

Bill, Bill, Bill--honestly, I am surprised you even speak to me. After all, we've been friends for YEARS now and still no SEX!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> BTW, would you mind faxing that picture to me?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Otherwise, I agree with you. I was so stunned at first, but overall, I feel like it's a HUGE RED FLAG too...like 90 ft x 180 ft.!!!

TR--as usual, right on the money. You wrote: <blockquote>quote:<hr /> ...was he 'expecting' to have sex with you? or was he just 'wanting' to have sex with you? as they are two different perspectives <hr /></blockquote>Actually, I did consider this. I mean, it would be the littlest bit flattering if we were just getting along so well and childishly giddy that he "wanted" to have sex. Of course most guys "want" it. The differentiation for me was continuing to bring it up and bring it up and bring it up. If I were to say, "Gee, I'm so excited, and I look forward to the day we might have sex" that's one expression--but dropping it into conversation all night, "...let's get to the bedroom" "will we be alone?" "when is alone time?" "I'd be more comfortable in the bedroom" and stearing the topic back and back and back to sexual topics. It felt like EXPECTATION to me!!!

You also suggested: <blockquote>quote:<hr />He *may* have been trying to find out if you would--and then decide if this is how she is--then will she have sex with everyone she dates?

Or

he may be a complete and total jerk and really think that having sex by the second date is what everyone does--especially boy's--because if he can't get you to have sex with him--then he must not be a *man*--and there must be something wrong with him--(a childish attitude, but a lot of adult boy's do think this way)<hr /></blockquote>Hmmmm...if it were the first option, and he's just trying to find out if I will, I would actually be angry about that. Exactly WHO tests someone like that on a second date?? I mean, at first when you're getting to know someone a lot of the questions/answers are like mini-tests...but this is way too over the top, way too soon!

My intuition says it's more likely the second option, only perhaps not that he's that big of a "jerk" and more likely an adult boy who is completely clueless how to interact with a woman on a mature level. Sooo...if that's the case, exactly why would I consider giving him another chance again?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Finally, and in conclusion, TR you asked a bone-crunching question: <blockquote>quote:<hr />CJ, Did your father step in and try and protect you from boy's you dated?? did he try and hold the boy's accountable? And did you try and stop him? (which is normal, as girls are designed to nurture, and not want to see other's suffer)especially not the boy they love<hr /></blockquote>I suspect maybe you forgot, but my father sexually molested me as a child, so not only did he NOT protect me from the boys I dated, he did not protect me from HIM!! In a strange way, I was lucky as a teen Sex Abuse Survivor--my very first boyfriend was a keeper...more of a friend who turned into a crush. He was very slow, very respectful, and let me set the pace (which was unusual in the late '70s), and since he was a fella from my church whom I respected, it was a completely different model of the way that behavior should be than what happened with my dad.

Wierd, huh?? So, no. My dad did not protect me from my boyfriends, and I did not defend them or try to stop my dad. He didn't really hold anyone (including himself) accountable. That's pretty much always been me holding myself accountable to my own standard.

CJ

GnomeDePlume,

--Sorry, but I just can't buy this. Any kind of "test" that undermines one's own credibility in this way is so foolish that it would call the man's judgment into question as much as the more obvious motivation for his overtures.--

TR--I agree it would be foolishness--but it really does happen and as you so aptly stated--

"some of us have values, enough self-control to live by them, and enough respect for other people to show some restraint."

Oh, yeah, now you've done it! How dare you use an apostrophe in "boy's" and "male's" when you spell "girls" correctly without the apostrophe. If you must diss us on our maturity, couldn't you at least grant us the minor respect of correct grammar usage? Grrr... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (oops, bad acting, let me try again...) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> (there, that's better) --

TR--I don't know whether to laugh or not--as I know on one level your joking--but on another very serious--(I really should use proper grammar)
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

but I really wasn't meaning to dis males--as not all grown males are immature--just as not all grown females are mature--but on the issue of sex-for both girls and women--it's the way they seal the emotional bond they have with boys/men--
boys/men however, do not bond with girls/women through the act of sex--

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ThornedRose:
TR--I don't know whether to laugh or not--as I know on one level your joking--but on another very serious--(I really should use proper grammar) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Well, if you don't laugh, I hope it's only because the joke wasn't really that funny. What I thought was most amusing about it (if I am permitted to laugh at my own joke) is that flame wars often include disparaging remarks about spelling and grammar - as if such an ad hominem argument had any merit. So, I thought it would be fun to make an immature response to an argument for the immaturity of a class of individuals of which I happen to be arguably a part - thus reinforcing your point.

OK, so it was lame - and my explanation even lamer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Oh, well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />...but on the issue of sex-for both girls and women--it's the way they seal the emotional bond they have with boys/men--
boys/men however, do not bond with girls/women through the act of sex-- <hr /></blockquote>You know, I've never really believed this. Maybe I'm just naive, or maybe I'm not really a man <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , but I've long suspected that in reality sex creates/reinforces an emotional bond for both women and men - unless they are dis-integrated emotionally. This lack of integration seems to be more common with men, and that, I believe, is the reason for the gender stereotype.

My own sexual experience is severely limited; but for myself, I have no desire to add to that experience without a strong emotional and spiritual bond and the belief that it is wise to make that bond as strong as possible. In other words, I would have to be engaged to be married. At that point I can imagine a conflict between my desires and my values (since sex outside of marriage is not permissible in my value system) - but that's where self-control and respect must be applied.

[ August 30, 2004, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: GnomeDePlume ]

FaithfulNewCJ,

--Exactly WHO tests someone like that on a second date?? I mean, at first when you're getting to know someone a lot of the questions/answers are like mini-tests...but this is way too over the top, way too soon! --

TR--Someone who doesn't know how mature relationships are supposed to be--

--My intuition says it's more likely the second option, only perhaps not that he's that big of a "jerk" and more likely an adult boy who is completely clueless how to interact with a woman on a mature level. Sooo...if that's the case, exactly why would I consider giving him another chance again?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

TR--IF he call's again--be honest with him about how his actions and words made you feel--and let him know that is not the type of relationship your wanting--and if that is what he's looking for--then he needs to look elsewhere--

And he will either apologize--or he'll move on to the next person--

And something you said--"I did not act like I wanted the attempt-to-round-second on the first date, nor did I act in any way like it was a positive thing when he kept pursuing the topic on the second date."

However, his perception could be--"You asked if you could sit next to ME at the School event--so therefore you must have been coming on to me--it must be what she wants--as she's being so forward"

--I suspect maybe you forgot, but my father sexually molested me as a child, so not only did he NOT protect me from the boys I dated, he did not protect me from HIM!!

TR--And no I did not forget--which is why I asked the question--

You've never had anyone make a man accountable for how he treats you--and you really need that--yes, even as an adult in the dating world--it could be a brother or a good Christian male friend--

for me while I was dating my husband--it became our pastors--they held him accountable--they challenged him in his choices, and some of his decisions--which in turn prompted his growth--even now that we are married they hold us both accountable--as Christians in our walk with each other in marriage and with God--and it is such a blessing to our marriage--knowing we have someone who support's all aspects--of our marriage and lives who want the best for us--it brings both comfort and security--

You are not accountable to a man you date--but only to God--and your walk with Him--and any man you choose to date should be under the same submission to God--and both should have someone your accountable to outside of the relationship to help keep you on the right path--(just reinforcing something I know you've learned over the past few years)

--Well, if you don't laugh, I hope it's only because the joke wasn't really that funny.

TR--Well, it was both--not that funny and the fact I actually GOT it--remembering back to many of those lame arguements over spelling <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
which is why I wasn't sure I wanted to laugh--

--You know, I've never really believed this.

TR--because you were taught the truth--not all guy's are--many are sucked into believing the lies

--Maybe I'm just naive, or maybe I'm not really a man <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

TR--Actually I think this makes you more of a Man
but hey, that's my opinion <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

--but I've long suspected that in reality sex creates/reinforces an emotional bond for both women and men - unless they are dis-integrated emotionally.

TR--I agree 100%

--This lack of integration seems to be more common with men, and that, I believe, is the reason for the gender stereotype.

TR--And girls grow up believing their own set of lies--

Women--how many have you thought these things in your *youth*?

1. I have to prove my love by having sex with my boyfriend--

2. My boyfriend can't help his sexual urge. The only way he can be satisfied is if I give myself to him sexually--

3. If I give myself to my boyfriend sexually, he will love me--

4. My boyfriend doesn't need to prove he loves me.
I can trust him--

5. I don't need the protection of my father, I can take care of MYSELF!

6. If I make things to difficult for my boyfriend,
I'll lose him (and that's bad)--

And how many of you have known boy's who have this attitude--or who thought these things--

1. I'm not much of a man if I can't get this girl to have sex with me--

2. If you love me you'll have sex with me--

3. I can't help myself once I get excited--(unless of course someone walks in on us)

4. She's only playing hard to get until I convince her I love her--

5. If I tell her love her and want to marry her it will be okay--

6. It's good to want to have sex before we get married--

7. She should trust my promises, not my actions--

There are other's listed--but just for the sake of discussion we'll use these ones--How many of you guy's and gal's have thought these things--or know folks who do??

--My own sexual experience is severely limited; but for myself, I have no desire to add to that experience without a strong emotional and spiritual bond and the belief that it is wise to make that bond as strong as possible.

TR--And that's how it should be--your very blest in this way--even if others don't seem to think so--

--In other words, I would have to be engaged to be married. At that point I can imagine a conflict between my desires and my values (since sex outside of marriage is not permissible in my value system) - but that's where self-control and respect must be applied.--

TR--Notice the struggle even within yourself in this area--and you are a Christian--so imagine how easy it is for those outside of Christ to believe all the lies of the world--

[ August 30, 2004, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]

Whoa!

<rides in to the defense of Men>

Why is it Men that only expect it? Sheesh.... such sexism!

I'll not touch on my premarital dating (too long ago), but my interim dating experience (between my 2 marriages) wasn't that long ago.

I found that in many ways the roles had reversed and that it was women that pushed for sex, sometimes on the first date even. In today's world of desperate people I've found mixed meaning in the old adage, "Women give sex to get love and Men give love to get sex"

CJ, I think you should be thankful that the guy tipped his hand so soon (before you got too invested). Pressuring a girl for sex is pathetic (only slightly less pathetic than a husband pressuring his wife for it).

What's more disturbing to me on this thread is the preconceived ideas that guys are always the sexual aggressors.

newly,

--Every time I read TR's comments, I'm more amazed at the depth of her knowledge and her perceptiveness.

TR-- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Anything I share has come from learning through life's very difficult and oft times painful experiences---

And it's my hope that by sharing, someone else may learn from reading about those experiences and not have to learn them first hand--

I've lived the painful lessons--but I never knew how it should be--that knowledge came by reading about how God intends relationships to be--
and trust me, I've read many relationship books over the past 6 years just to find out--

I got many of those books from my pastor last year when my husband and I went through Pre-marriage counseling--and others while working through my own childhood sexual abuses issues--
and I thank God for taking the time to teach me and for bringing those people into my life that helped teach me--and for being patient with me as I learned--and struggled to accept and process the truths--(some have been right here on MB)
so really it's just God's wisdom imparted to me by others--

--Sadly, many of us need to break the pattern of being attracted to the ManChild. I can see it in friends when we go out. --

TR--This was my goal when I started this journey--
I didn't want to continue making the same mistakes--and following the same patterns I always had--it wasn't working for me--it was apparently working for the men in my life though
as they were happy as clams to keep things as they were--

CJ-
Not sure if you saw my thread about my former BF? I started seeing someone right after my D was final. A nice, christian guy. We dated for about 6 months - and I am sad to say that we become intimate early on - but not on the 2nd date! I have learned a lot from that experience and it is not going to happen again.

After 6 months of dating - things were going well. We had talked about a future together a little bit. No actual M talk - but we talked about trips we wanted to take, stuff like that.
Anyway, the day he broke up with me he said two things:
1. He was no longer comfortable with our physical relationship. That he knows it is wrong, and he is just not able to continue it.
2. he had a problem with my weight.
So item number 1 broke my heart - and item number 2 pissed me off!
When he first told me that he was not comfortable with our physical realtionship I was happy - I figured he cared for me enough that he wanted to do everything right in the eyes of God, in preparation for our future together. I was thrilled to think that I had finally found a man of honor. He did call a couple more times after that, but he said he didn't think he could see me anymore because the temptation would just be too great for him.
Then he told me he had a problem with my weight and I figured he was just an idiot (because I am NOT fat - I swear I'm not!)
Anyway, I realize now that we went to far too fast, and that has made this break up so hard to get over. The phsical act of sex is truly the joining together of two. It is a bonding experience. And I was bonded to him - joined to him. At this point I can say that obviously he was not the right one to bond with - but my heart is still hurting! Even now - after a couple of months - I still hurt a little!

Obviously I don't have all the right anwswers, but I certainly don't plan to get into an intimate realtionship with someone so soon again.

The first date having coffee, during the day?, and the second one - evening, dinner skiped?, your home... hmmm... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

And you wonder why...? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Many men, under the same circumstances, would do the same EVEN if they don't feel 'so'...
Who wouldn't like to response like a man made for any 'challenge'?

If he's the same in any other circumstance, you know what to do.
Take it or leave it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

By the way, I like more that kind of men than those "patient" ones but having the SAME 'goal'... With this one - no waste of time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
(Of course I prefer the third kind of men. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Now I'm (more) serious:
It's always been and it'll always be men (and women <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) who are patient enough to get what they want (IF they want) and vice versa...

It just depends on - what they really want..

[ August 30, 2004, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]

CJ,

I'm just gonna give you an honest manchilds opinion.(Good God I hope I'm not one)

Now don't get me wrong, I for the most part fall close to LordsLadys situation. W was the 15 1/2 year old and I was the one that waited for months.(Not the typical horney teenager. I even had moral then)

Now thinking of it from a mans perspective, willing to take all the punches that I'll get for it, I would only act like that if I was out for a piece of *ss.

My advice is wait and see what you get back from him before expressing your values. I say that because if he was looking for you to put out and you didn't, you may not have to worry about that third date.Sorry as it sounds, it could show you a lot about him. So you won't have to worry about this situation anymore, you continue on and see what comes your way next. But it may also show you that sex isn't all he wants. Just something that you drive him to want <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Rest assured, we are not all like this. Some of us have morals of our own.

OK now a little in his deffense! Someone did mention"what is he doing at your house on a second date" I know, no excuse but could be a little miss leading. Also, I believe he may also be new to the dating scene(I know, no excuse either) but if he was married for a long time, he may be used to bringing up sex all the time to get his now X interested. So It may just be habit for him and you need to throw in that learning curve so he see's that he needs to start all over again.

Back to MB Basics. He doesn't know that SF comes from meeting other EN's and building up the LB. He needs to be taught this.

Take it slow. the outcome is going to be determined by both your actions.

WIWH

[ August 30, 2004, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: WishI WereHome ]

Sex on the 2nd date?

If THAT'S how they are in 2004 - I can only date a man ONCE - to attain and maintain my "revirginized Laura Lee" title!

Boy, I better make sure they take me someplace really nice on the first date... since I won't be going out with them again.

lol

Laura

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by HarryS:
 Whoa! (rides in to the defense of Men)

Why is it Men that only expect it? Sheesh.... such sexism!

...What's more disturbing to me on this thread is the preconceived ideas that guys are always the sexual aggressors. <hr /></blockquote>Easy there, John Wayne! EEEEEEEAAAASSSSYYYYY! I don't think anyone was saying that men "in general" are more sexually aggressive then women. Good god, if that were the case I'd suggest watching "Sex in the City"! You'll get a lesson real quick on just how aggressive chicks can be nowadays!! But, since this is MY thread, and the aggressor in MY instance was a male of the species, I think folks are suggesting that HE (my former date) was the sexual aggressor and possibly a ManChild in his behavior.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />In today's world of desperate people I've found mixed meaning in the old adage, "Women give sex to get love and Men give love to get sex" <hr /></blockquote>You know, Mr. Wayne, I have always had a big problem with this statement, and here's why. I think it is a cop out for men who want sex to say that they give "love" in order to get it. BTW, I also think it is an equal cop-out for a woman to give sex in order to get love. If that were a valid statement, then I would have given in to my date's continuous sexual requests and innuendos in order to "get" his love--wouldn't I??

I think a man should give love because he values the woman and respects her--unrelated to sex. I think a woman should give sex because she values the man and communicates that value in a tangible way. I think couples should love because they CHOOSE to--not to "get" something. And I think couples should have sex because it's the healthy expression of a healthy love--not because it's the second date now and I ain't gettin' any younger!

So saddle up, Pilgrim. Your old adage has been called out for a showdown at high noon. Lock and load--put on your spurs and shine up your badge--cuz we're meeting at the Coral.

CJ

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Belonging to Nowhere:
 The first date having coffee, during the day?, and the second one - evening, dinner skiped?, your home... hmmm... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

And you wonder why...? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Wow! I can not even fathom this post. You can not POSSIBLY be implying that his sexually inappropriate behavior was because I asked him to meet at my house, could you??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Our first date was AT NITE at the coffeehaus down the street from my home. I work until 8pm, so we met after work for a quick chat and mostly an icebreaker. The next date was also at night--like I said at 8:30pm at my home. Okay, I agree maybe not the best judgment, but remember this is a guy who I saw for like a year at my D's school, so I didn't feel afraid of him and I knew of his kids and interacted with him at parent-functions at school (ie., PTA). I get off work at 8pm, and I'm usually pretty tired, so I thought we'd just kick back and watch a movie or the Olympics. Oh...and BTW...I did mention that OUT LOUD to him...that those were my intentions. I though we could either wait until I was off work (Mon-Tues-Wed) or do something sort of casual and relaxing over the weekend to see each other sooner. Dinner was not skipped-- we specifically PLANNED to each eat dinner with our own families (I have a 1 hr. break at work from 5-6p), and once again, this was communicated OUT LOUD and agreed upon.

I guess that no matter how he behaved somehow it would be my "fault" huh? I could not disagree more or more strongly!!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It just depends on - what they really want.. <hr /></blockquote>Yep. In my instance, a relationship built on a spiritual and emotional connection--knowing someone intimately. In his instance--a quick piece of a$$.

CJ

(Kinda pissed now)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulNewCJ:
You can not POSSIBLY be implying that his sexually inappropriate behavior was because I asked him to meet at my house, could you??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>He misunderstood your invitation, obviously. Otherwise, he would respect it and you telling him being tired to go somewhere else, and he should use that time to know you better (spiritualy I mean. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Maybe!

And maybe he'd act the same if you were anywhere else...

CJ, I don't approve his behavior, just say that invitations to our home even at a latter date mean invitation for bed for many men.
And, as you, I'd be frustrated/dissapointed too, if he were not invited for 'that purpose'...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Okay, I agree maybe not the best judgment<hr /></blockquote>You must agree with me too that it's a higher probability they will misunderstand us if inviting them to a private place (as our home) BEFORE they really KNOW us... (before having social activities together outside, before builting emotional and spiritual connecton...)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Oh...and BTW...I did mention that OUT LOUD to him...that those were my intentions.<hr /></blockquote>He 'listened' what he wanted not what you were saying.
Also, he doesn't know women (no all women say no and mean yes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I guess that no matter how he behaved somehow it would be my "fault" huh?<hr /></blockquote>No, never thought so! Not that way you got my words anyway...
He just might misunderstood your invitation but it does NOT excuse his behavior!

CJ, I understand YOU!, just trying to understand (guessing!) his acting here... not to excuse him, but for you not to dump him just for this, for he might be different than this poor behavior showed...
And maybe not, but anyway you'll know that soon, after talking to him about your feelings during&after that night...

[ August 31, 2004, 06:18 AM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]

double, sorry

[ August 31, 2004, 05:58 AM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]

CJ
A lot of good chat has developed from your thread. I'm appreciative of being able to read everyone's comments and gain insight for what might be a road I'll travel down in the future. Your posts are always articulated so well! But go back and re-read LostHusband 's post. He brought up the same question that Belonging to Nowhere did...
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> from LH : Now Miss CJ I have a question for you. Why was this man at your house with your kids on the second date anyway?
<hr /></blockquote>So maybe there IS something to that, at least in a guy's way of thinking...

[ August 31, 2004, 07:05 AM: Message edited by: avondale25 ]

CJ,

It really doesn't matter why the man was at your home for the second date--be it to watch TV, have dinner, or so that your kids could spend time together--

Nobody--be they male or female should 'expect' to have sex with someone just because they *invited* them into their home--for coffee, dinner, desert or whatever--be it the first, second, third or even the one hundedreth date--even if you've had sex with them on the eleventh date they shouldn't just expect it on subsequent dates--

Giving yourself sexually, is a choice--each and every time--even within marriage--it continues to remain a choice--but, within the confines of marriage, it should be a choice to want to give yourself more often than not--but even then it should not be something that is 'expected'

It's a gift to the other person--your *wanting* to give of yourself in a way that expresses your love for them in the most intimate way--

And within the confines of marriage--it is a gift that no spouse should outright reject--(unless there are extenuating circumstances) and even then
it should be done in a respectful manner--and with a raincheck for another time--

“””It really doesn't matter why the man was at your home for the second date--be it to watch TV, have dinner, or so that your kids could spend time together—“””

TR – Love ya and respect ya but have to disagree with you on this one. I’m in no way implying that CJ should bear any blame for the events that unfolded and yes sex is a choice every time.

My original reason for stating the question was that I disagreed with and still disagree with her decision to bring a 2nd date home to the kids. I stick by that one CJ, keep the young ones out of it for a while.

That being said I’m going to try hard to make a point without sounding like a total *&^hole. CJ you know I love you, right. And we’ve been having those conversations about my flirtatious personality. Well someone who lives to the West of me has a little flirtation in her game as well. That coupled with the cozy invitation can lead one to have unrealistic expectations of the evening. Perception is reality. Totally not your “fault” but once you know the problem you are responsible for the cure.

I also think it’s very important to realize the difference between friendly relationships and dating. I believe that there are certain progressive expectations that arise in a dating environment that don’t exist in a friendship.

TR – Flame Away…….

LostHusband,

– Love ya and respect ya but have to disagree with you on this one. I’m in no way implying that CJ should bear any blame for the events that unfolded and yes sex is a choice every time.

TR--Which was my point--I'm not disagreeing she faultered in judgement inviting the man over on the second date--as she really doesn't know him--
just because you see someone at a function on many occassions doesn't mean they should be trusted in your home--

and I think we can agree on that--

but she did--and even though she did--it doesn't matter what the reason--he was wrong to 'expect' that it would lead to sex--and I think we agree on that point as well--

Which is really the point--it shouldn't matter what the reason was for her invite--he should not have *expected* sex was going to be the outcome--and certainly after she told him NO--he should have respected that--and changed his attitude--or left her home--

TR We do agree, I guess I just misunderstood your statement and we took different paths to the same conclusion.

Now CJ, get over here young lady TR & I want to talk with you..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Now seriously, this is a growing and learning process. So take what you've learned from this and continue to reach upward until you finally grab the clouds.

Luvs ya, short legs.....

Belonging to Nowhere, Avondale, LH, and TR:

All I can say is "I'm stunned." I am STUNNED and I am just not going to take this. I work 11am to 8pm standing on my feet, and when I come home I am tired and want to sit down and veg out. Yes, I agree it was not the best judgment to have the guy to my house on the second date (BTW, son was at his GF's house, and Steph was with a friend playing. Both met him BRIEFLY to shake hands as he left or they left.) I communicated to him clearly and OUT LOUD--I did not make him read my mind, guess, or throw "hints"--that I would be working, I would be tired, and would he like to just kick back and chill? I even discussed OUT LOUD that I would not be buying wine or alcohol of any kind and that it would probably involve drinking a soda and watching the Olympics.

There was NO communication, indication, flirtation, or "leading on" that I expected anything other than to drink a soda and watch the Olympics or a movie. We agreed on times of 8:30pm to 10:30pm since I have kids, he has kids, and I had work the next day too.

Do you all really mean to tell me that he has the right to expect sex, to continuously bring it up, to continue to attempt to grab and touch, and to pursue it even after I back away and say "no" BECAUSE I INVITED HIM TO MY HOME FOR TWO HOURS AFTER WORK??? Do you honestly meant to tell me that if I had only communicated it more clearly, he would have understood and respected it?? I say BULL!!! I can not think of any way I could have been more clear, and STILL he persisted in continuing and being insistent!!

I can not believe it!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Apparently if a woman invites a man to her home for 2 hrs. of drinking soda and watching the Olympics, it means he has the right to EXPECT to sex, to paw her, and to be a jerk! AND IT'S HER FAULT because OBVIOUSLY inviting a man to the house equals sex!!!!

How could I have missed it????

(Shaking head) UNBELIEVABLE!!!!

I'm sorry, but I do not buy it. If the world's sexiest man (aka, LH) were to invite me to his house after work for soda and watching the Olympics, do you know what I would expect?? SODA AND WATCHING THE OLYMPICS!!! MAYBE.... holding hands...MAYBE!! And if I did try to kiss him and he backed away, I GUAR-AN-TEE that I would stop immediately and not try again and sure as heck not press the matter!!

I'm not prude here, and I'm not utterly against being bold and making a move if the situation is right, but I SURE AS SHOOTING would not continue once there was a "no". And HE did and I sure as sh*t am not to blame for "inviting him to my house."

CJ

Note to all men out there: If a woman invites you to her house IT DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN YOU CAN HAVE SEX WITH HER!!!!

I've read this thread with interest, thinking about how we all have different expectations and experiences. I am having a hard time fitting in to the dating scene because of my religious beliefs about sex outside of marriage, and just because of the type of man I would be looking for. I don't think it is that difficult to find people to date, especially going out in downtown Denver or to parties like I enjoy doing, but it is finding high quality men that is the issue, and finding men that share my morals and try to live them out in their lives.

I LOVE sex. I can't wait to have it again if I ever re-marry. But I know that it is God's will and in my best interest for me to follow the rules on this one. I have had two relationships after my divorce, and I broke my own value system because of lust or wanting to show my love or whatever. I know God won't bless a relationship that I am in where I flaunt his rules, so I broke off both of them, and am trying to get to a point where I am strong enough to be in a relationship that can turn serious without me going against my morals.

And CJ, I don't think the posters were saying you were asking for sex by inviting the man to your house, but just that it MAY have been a part of what he was thinking. It doesn't sound like this guy is someone you want in your life. I had a friend who constantly wanted to talk about sex and personal things and would shift any e-mail conversation we had to things that just weren't appropriate. I started feeling like he only wanted to talk to me on a sexual level, so had to scale back our friendship because I felt uncomfortable. (Even though he was sexy, and it was flattering, I knew it wasn't right.)

I'm 34, and I know few Christian singles, so I have no idea what the dating culture is for us at there. I think you have valid questions. Good luck!

FaithfulNewCJ,

I think your reading what we've said--at least what I've said WRONG!!

NO!! He does NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO EXPECT SEX!!

NOR

does he have a right to continually bring it up *even IF it's what he expected* and YOU SAID NO!!

Please RE-READ what I wrote--

but she did--and even though she did--it doesn't matter what the reason--***he was *wrong* to 'expect' that it would lead to sex***--and I think we agree on that point as well--

Which is really the point--it shouldn't matter what the reason was for her invite--***he *should not* have *expected* sex was going to be the outcome--and certainly after she told him NO--he should have respected that--and changed his attitude--or left her home--

[ August 31, 2004, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]

Do you all really mean to tell me that he has the right to expect sex,
This is two different things. Rights and expectations.
He does not have a right to expect sex.
But he may expect it (in some twisted way) because this lady he knows from “around school” invited him over to her house at night.

I can not believe it!!!!!!!! Apparently if a woman invites a man to her home for 2 hrs. of drinking soda and watching the Olympics, it means he has the right to EXPECT to sex, to paw her, and to be a jerk! AND IT'S HER FAULT because OBVIOUSLY inviting a man to the house equals sex!!!!
No one said he has a right to expect his and no one said he has a right to do any of this.

If the world's sexiest man (aka, LH) were to invite me to his house after work for soda and watching the Olympics, do you know what I would expect?? SODA AND WATCHING THE OLYMPICS!!! MAYBE.... holding hands...MAYBE!! And if I did try to kiss him and he backed away, I GUAR-AN-TEE that I would stop immediately and not try again and sure as heck not press the matter!!
Huh? You were invited over for “SODA AND WATCHING THE OLYMPICS!!! “, not hand holding and kissing too!
Also, you seem to have your head screwed on fairly straight and have a good set of values. So you might not expect more but this guy might expect more.

I'm not prude here, and I'm not utterly against being bold and making a move if the situation is right, but I SURE AS SHOOTING would not continue once there was a "no". And HE did and I sure as sh*t am not to blame for "inviting him to my house."
Bu the point is that you DID invite him into your house for whatever reasons. He seems to;
1 – have misinterpreted your intentions
2 – doesn’t care about your intentions and only wanted in your pants

Note to all men out there: If a woman invites you to her house IT DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN YOU CAN HAVE SEX WITH HER!!!!
Got news for you. To some women and some men an invitation to their house is exactly an invitation to have sex.

The process of “dating” is to getting to know each other, their likes and dislikes and what is appropriate/not appropriate. If you put your boundaries down and they get crossed, then go on to the next person. If you are “okay” the boundaries get “tested” or crossed and think it was a misunderstanding, try again.

[ August 31, 2004, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulNewCJ:
 Yes, I agree it was not the best judgment to have the guy to my house on the second date!![/b] <hr /></blockquote>That was exactly my point. Thank you for seeing that.

Now calm down..... Breathe...... Relax...... You know me dear and if you think I'm pointing a finger at you and saying YOU SCREWED UP, you're wrong, I'm doing nothing of the sort.

But I do want you to take off the gloves for a moment and instead of starring out the window look into the mirror. You and I have talked about all this stuff before, only the roles were reversed. Remember I verbalized to those home town girls and yet they wanted more. Was it my fault? NO.... However it is up to me to ensure that I don't put myself in that compromised position again........

Chill.......... Go above 9,000', I think they are suppose to have snow up there.....

Hugs,

Billy

PS.... So if I come over to watch the olympics do I need to bring a ladder?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulNewCJ:
Note to all men out there: If a woman invites you to her house IT DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN YOU CAN HAVE SEX WITH HER!!!!<hr /></blockquote>And here I was starting to think that when my lady friend - the one I am so obsessed with - invited me over to her apartment to help her out with something, what she really wanted was to have sex! Here I was starting to think it had been foolish of me to believe that she wanted what she said she wanted! And what's more, I was starting to think that there was something wrong with me because my intentions in going over there were to help her out, so that it never even occurred to me to put any kind of moves on her! Thanks for setting me straight, CJ.

Let's see... How many times in the last few months have I been in the homes of single women - alone with them! - with no thought of any...er...libidinous activity? How many times have I had single women in my home alone with me? I don't know. But I dare say that none of them had any more uncommunicated expectations than I did.

Yeah, I know, there are no doubt plenty of incredibly self-absorbed people out there who think that if the world doesn't revolve around them, then at least it should. And there are plenty of short-sighted people out there who have more interest in a tawdry fling than in a lasting and mutually-fulfilling relationship built on love and respect. I know this, but that doesn't mean I can understand these people. And I've got quite a few friends who are fifteen to twenty years younger than I am whose actions and values demonstrate a lot more maturity than the soap-operatic conduct of the people I keep hearing about in these dating threads. Where do y'all find them?

Why should it be so unreasonable to expect a man to act like a gentleman, or a woman to act like a lady?

Maybe I am getting old...

On another subject, I freely admit that I am not a parent and thus may not have a very solid perspective, but I don't understand why, at their age, CJ's kids need to be "protected" from her dating life. They are old enough, and have seen enough, to understand the situation. If they've got a problem with her dating, that's one thing. Some kids take it badly if a parent even thinks about dating, but others actually encourage such activity. And note that by dating, I am referring here to the good old-fashioned everything-is-above-board type of dating which one would want to model for his or her children, as opposed to the sleeping-around kind of dating which certain adult children seem to expect...

Darn, I'm not only getting old, I'm turning into an acerbic curmudgeon...

Okay all,

Taking deep breaths...

Taking more deep breaths....

Thinking peaceful thoughts..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I guess I am still somewhat in shock that some folks here on this board seem to think it is acceptable to say, "Well, he misunderstood your invitation so it's understandable why he had the expectation of sex and treated you disrespectfully. If he UNDERSTOOD he would have treated you respectfully." No it's not!! I sincerely can not fathom that. Maybe he's just a lech with a sexual addiction, and no matter how often I said "no" he wouldn't take it for an answer. Maybe he's an immature ManChild and only thinks of women as sex-objects and believes he can TAKE whatever he wants. Maybe his belief system is so messed up that he equates sex with love.

Now, GDP, I have to tell ya, I LOVE what you had to say and how you said it. Frankly, I appreciate the way you expressed it, and it hit near to my heart and MY way of thinking, so I'd like to review a few highlights:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:
...Here I was starting to think it had been foolish of me to believe that she wanted what she said she wanted! <hr /></blockquote>DING! DING! DING! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> You win the award. When I want sex, it will sound very much like this, "I love you and would like to invite you into my bedroom" and knowing me it may be just that blunt too! haha! I am an articulate, intelligent woman, and when I want something, I am perfectly capable of telling someone in such a way that it is not too puzzling. You will not need your decoder ring! If I say I'd like to get together to have a cup of coffee, that it what I want. If I have a little crush on you, I will say so. If I feel close to you, I will say so. If I think a boundary has been crossed I will say so. It has been my experience that wanting what I say I want is SO MUCH EASIER on everybody.

NOTE TO MEN: If a woman says she wants to watch a movie with you, she wants to watch a movie with you. If she says "Want to watch a movie and make out a little?" THEN she wants to watch a movie and make out a little.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Let's see... How many times in the last few months have I been in the homes of single women - alone with them! - with no thought of any...er...libidinous activity? <hr /></blockquote>Yet again, DING-DING-DING you win the prize. I have been in the homes of single male friends and acquaintances--even alone with them--to do work, to watch a football game or show, to arrange a yard sale, to discuss a book, to talk, to drink a soda, and to meet new pets. None of these activities included the thought that I was allowed to have sex because I was in their home!

Maybe it's just me, but when I go to someone's home and when I invite someone to my home, I see it as an opportunity to see them in their own comfortable setting, to find out more about them, and to share their life a little with them. I can honestly say I have never, ever even once thought of a home invitation an entitlement to sexual thoughts OR ACTIONS!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />And there are plenty of short-sighted people out there who have more interest in a tawdry fling than in a lasting and mutually-fulfilling relationship built on love and respect. <hr /></blockquote>Amen to that. Apparently this fella was after more of the "tawdry fling" category. Today, after I formulated my WTFS statement ("when you___, I think___, I feel___, so I'm going to ask____") I spoke to him and told him that when he came to the house and made continuous comments about sex and the bedroom and trying to touch, that I thought it was inappropriate and inconsiderate, and that I felt under-valued, uncomfortable, and disrespected. I told him that did not work for me, as I was looking for a longer-term, mature, healthy relationship and not just a quick piece of a$$ (yes, I used those words), and that if that was what he wanted I was not the girl for him. His response was, "That's too bad, because I don't want a relationship without sex. Bye then I guess." AARRGGHH!!

So apparently 10 down and 20 to go!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Where do y'all find them? <hr /></blockquote>Oh, they are all over! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I found mine at my D's school by asking if I could sit next to him. Others were found at a coffeeshop, ExpressoDate, set up by friends, etc. Where do you find people who prefer a long-term, mature, healthy, intimate relationship and not a ONS??

<blockquote>quote:<hr />[qb[Why should it be so unreasonable to expect a man to act like a gentleman, or a woman to act like a lady?[/qb]<hr /></blockquote>See?? That's my question! I realize it's the year 2004 and that there are going to be jerk and b*tches out there, but why wouldn't I expect a gentleman to treat me in a gentlemanly way? Why wouldn't I hold myself to a lady-like standard? I'm sorry, but being horny is no excuse for behaving poorly--just exercise self-control!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />On another subject, I freely admit that I am not a parent and thus may not have a very solid perspective, but I don't understand why, at their age, CJ's kids need to be "protected" from her dating life. They are old enough...to understand the situation.

Some kids take it badly if a parent even thinks about dating, but others actually encourage such activity. And note that by dating, I am referring here to the good old-fashioned everything-is-above-board type of dating which one would want to model for his or her children, as opposed to the sleeping-around kind of dating which certain adult children seem to expect...<hr /></blockquote>Oh, GDP, you and I think very much alike on this topic too. I do not think it is wise for my children to become emotionally involved or attached to a man I'm dating until there is reason to believe it is a stable relationship. BUT!...my kids are 17yo and 15yo and both in the age to date themselves. I spoke with both kids before I even considered dating to see if they were okay with it, and not only did they SAY--they ACTED like they were ready. As you mentioned, GDP, my thought was that if I demonstrated proper dating techniques to my kids, they would see that I was putting my money where my mouth is--living it, not just preaching it to them! Furthermore, I would expect my son to bring a girl to our house and let me meet her (as in shake her hand)--why would I not expect that it was reasonable to bring a date home and let him meet my kids (as in shake their hand and say "hello").

That is the way I have conducted myself in a way so that my kids could COPY the way that they have seen me act, and be behaving well! Isn't that part of the idea of parenting--demonstrating good behavior?? I have purposely chosen to conduct everything in my life in a transparent way--wide open for them to see all (good and bad, yucky and miraculous)--so they can see for themselves that people make mistakes, what forgiveness and serenity look like, what healthy relationships look like, and how to act! Gee--bear in mind that my children have only seen what an abusive relationship looks like, and that is NOT the model I want them using in their own relationships!!

CJ

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Note to all men out there: If a woman invites you to her house IT DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN YOU CAN HAVE SEX WITH HER!!!!
<hr /></blockquote>Automatic - of course not, but the odds are certainly better <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> than if the woman does not invite the man to her house on one of the first dates. You don't have to like or agree with it, but inviting a man to your house will give some men the message that sex is a possibility. Getting upset about it won't change that reality.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I was expecting that 42yo, divorced dating would be more mature and experienced then 20yo dating. I was expecting at least one or two dates just to get to know if we have the potential to get along,; then I'd start to feel a little "Woohoo!" and he would feel "Woohoo" for me; then we go to more serious dates like he'd take me to dinner or to a concert/show; then we'd hold hands and kiss; then he'd be a gentleman and let me take the lead on moving any further. <hr /></blockquote>This is fine, but just keep in mind that this is YOUR idea of dating. Not everyone will agree with your pace, and that might mean they are not suitable dates for you.

I guess I am still somewhat in shock that some folks here on this board seem to think it is acceptable to say, "Well, he misunderstood your invitation so it's understandable why he had the expectation of sex and treated you disrespectfully. If he UNDERSTOOD he would have treated you respectfully." No it's not!! I sincerely can not fathom that.
It’s not that difficult to understand.
Why do you think it’s not acceptable to say, "he acted a certain way because he misunderstood what you told him?"

No one here said what he did was in any way okay.
Just that he may possibly may have misunderstood your intentions (whether it's because your message was not clear or he did not understand or he did not care to understand or he's a perv or...) and that is possibly why he acted as he did.
You can’t understand that?

[ August 31, 2004, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> NOTE TO MEN: If a woman says she wants to watch a movie with you, she wants to watch a movie with you. If she says "Want to watch a movie and make out a little?" THEN she wants to watch a movie and make out a little.
<hr /></blockquote>Again, you can only say this for yourself, not for all women.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am an articulate, intelligent woman, and when I want something, I am perfectly capable of telling someone in such a way that it is not too puzzling. You will not need your decoder ring! If I say I'd like to get together to have a cup of coffee, that it what I want. If I have a little crush on you, I will say so. If I feel close to you, I will say so. If I think a boundary has been crossed I will say so. It has been my experience that wanting what I say I want is SO MUCH EASIER on everybody. <hr /></blockquote>YOU have your stuff together, but many, many people do not. Many people do NOT want what they say they want. Many people are used to dealing with people that do not always say what they mean, and rely on mind reading technique <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Probably most of the people you meet will not be at your level of understanding yourself and what you want in your life. If you expect them to be, I think you are going to be disappointed often.

CJ,

I haven't posted to you since the beginning but have been keeping up with the thread. I must say, I'm still with you on this! (Although as I read, I realize that if I ever get back into the dating scene I have a LOT to learn and the hope of my finding a single Christian man who is willing to wait on sex until marriage seems to be virtually nil. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> )

Thus, it would seem I probably won't be dating much. And that really stinks. Something I'll have to come to terms with, I guess.

I don't understand why men think that just because they are invited to a woman's house they can now paw the woman. It doesn't seem right to me, and I might have also invited him over had I been in your shoes. My kids (who at 15 and 18 are dating age like yours) invite their friends over, and they actually do sit and watch movies and such from time to time.

And even if he did misinterpret your initial intentions, he should have stopped after the first try. He should NOT have continued to press for sex. Setting him straight once should have gotten the point across.

Like others have said, CJ you have your head screwed on very straight. (And I also see this in all your posts to my threads--they're always right on the mark!).

LL

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
 It’s not that difficult to understand.
Why do you think it’s not acceptable to say, "he acted a certain way because he misunderstood what you told him?"<hr /></blockquote>Well, to be honest, Chris, it's not that difficult to understand--I "comprehend" what people are saying. I meant the word "understand" in the sense that is closer to "empathize and maybe agree in those circumstances."

Here's why I do not think it's acceptable to make excuses for bad behavior--because the excuses are justifications and place blame at the victim's feet. What would be acceptable is placing the blame where the blame belongs--at the feet of the person (male or female) who behaved badly. Not to "excuse" it or "justify" it or explain it away, but to say "Acting in that manner JUST IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!" Period!!

If he had raped me in my own home, I realize that some people indeed would say, "Well if you hadn't worn that lowcut dress..." and "You shouldn't have gotten drunk..." or "You invited him into your home for a nightcap!!!" I do realize that SOME people really do think like that!! But that is directly incongruent to the way that I think. It may be a lapse in judgement to wear a dress cut down to there, but it in NO WAY excuses or justifies a rape--PERIOD. It is definately a lapse in judgement to drink so much that you are numb and not completely in control of yourself, but it in NO WAY excuses or justifies the rapist--PERIOD. It is an enormous lapse in judgement to invite the guy up to the house for a nightcap when you're in a lowcut dress and drunk--BUT IT STILL DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE RAPIST'S BAD BEHAVIOR!!

Apparently if the guy had raped me, it would be his bad--but since I invited him to my home and continued after I said "no", I'm supposed to be understanding that "maybe he didn't understand." I'm sorry--I just disagree strongly! I do not have to be understanding that a man continued to make sexual advances toward me after I said "no".

<blockquote>quote:<hr />No one here said what he did was in any way okay.
Just that he may possibly may have misunderstood your intentions (whether it's because your message was not clear or he did not understand or he did not care to understand or he's a perv or...) and that is possibly why he acted as he did.
You can’t understand that? <hr /></blockquote>I can understand that due to his own issues or interpretations, he may have a belief system that allows him to keep insisting on sexual contact after someone says "no". I understand that there are people in the dating scene that do not come right out and say what they want or speak their mind. I understand that he may be socially inept and probably immature in his sexual concepts.

What I choose NOT to be understanding about (I comprehend, do not empathize) is that it's acceptable to act as he did merely because he "misunderstood". Why would I be understanding about that?

(insert sarcasm here) Ohhhhh...so that's why he kept insisting that I perform sexual acts! Because he misunderstood that being invited to a woman's house means SEX!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> LoL

CJ

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lordslady:
 ...as I read, I realize that if I ever get back into the dating scene I have a LOT to learn and the hope of my finding a single Christian man who is willing to wait on sex until marriage seems to be virtually nil. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> ) <hr /></blockquote>Geez, lordslady, at this point I suggest we skip the men and date each other! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I would be willing to bet that if I invited you to my home for soda and the Olympics, you wouldn't think I meant SEX!!!

WAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

If I had known that I wouldn't be having sex anymore, I would have made the last time last longer and be better!!! OY

CJ

(tongue-in-cheek as always)

CJ
Another train of thought...you are a Christian, right? (I assume so, since you have the Bible verse in your profile.) Even as believers on this board, there are different lines of thinking as far as pre-marital sex. I cannot remember if I’ve read what yours are ( Lordslady and I are trusting God to not be in a spinster’s club <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) but it’s obvious somehow you and this guy were on different wave-lengths as far as values. Being around him at school functions doesn’t give opportunity to show much of his character. What, if any, discussions have you had with him to see into that part of his life? Is it possible that area wasn’t covered as well as it could have been in your “get to know each other coffee chat”or subsequent phone conversation? I’m sure you had lots of other things to talk about, and maybe this didn’t come into the conversation at all... I'm not sure how moral-related issues (not just sex) would be brought up anyway, and fortunately I don't have to worry about it any time soon. Next time, do you think you'd somehow get things like that into the conversation?

Again, NOT pointing fingers, and CERTAINLY NOT excusing what he did, just trying to see it from another angle, and how it can avoid being repeated by ANYONE here.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by avondale25:
 Even as believers on this board, there are different lines of thinking as far as pre-marital sex. I cannot remember if I’ve read what yours are ( Lordslady and I are trusting God to not be in a spinster’s club <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) but it’s obvious somehow you and this guy were on different wave-lengths as far as values. Being around him at school functions doesn’t give opportunity to show much of his character. What, if any, discussions have you had with him to see into that part of his life...Next time, do you think you'd somehow get things like that into the conversation?<hr /></blockquote>See, I think this is excellent. I agree, it seems obvious that my values regarding sex and his values regarding sex do not jive--and in real life he has every right to have his values and also live with the consequences/experiences. And avondale, you are so right that this topic had not yet even come up in our discussions, because...well, let's face it...it was still only our SECOND date! I knew of him from school, but you don't learn a ton about a person in PTA--just that they invest time in their children by being at PTA.

I think next time, rather than bring up my sexual expectations within the first two dates (COULD be a little intense--haha), what might be do is to bring up that I DO speak my mind--I will ASK FOR directly what I want--and that I'd like to be with a man who let's me take the lead sexually. What do you think of that option??

CJ

Hi CJ,

Guess you can put this down to the "learning about dating experience curve" on your journey to find what works for you. Therefore no matter how p*ssed off you are at the approach to sex by this particular date , you now know not to second guess your own intuition and communication regarding your needs. This has been a valuable time spent evaluating how to create the same situation, with a VERY different outcome (obviously with a different date) so that you CAN invite a date over to your home to watch the summer Olympics ...but you will have to wait 4 years to do this!

CJ, I applaud your post regarding NO JUSTIFICATION and NO EXUSES for any inappropriate behaviour, regardless of any perhaps perceived mixed message. Even though we can UNDERSTAND why someone made the choice to behave as they did, this in no way ever EXCUSES OR JUSTIFIES this problematic behaviour, regardless of the circumstances which preceeded it. This leads back to the "blame the victim" thinking and no one ever has to take responsibility for their own behaviour.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulNewCJ:
[QB] Belonging to Nowhere, Avondale, LH, and TR:

All I can say is "I'm stunned." I am STUNNED and I am just not going to take this.<hr /></blockquote>If you don't, you don't take - reality...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I guess I am still somewhat in shock that some folks here on this board seem to think it is acceptable to say, "Well, he misunderstood your invitation so it's understandable why he had the expectation of sex and treated you disrespectfully. If he UNDERSTOOD he would have treated you respectfully." No it's not!! I sincerely can not fathom that.<hr /></blockquote>It looks you read them (us) as your second date listened to you (your NOs). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by AFS:
 [QUOTE]...Many people do NOT want what they say they want. Many people are used to dealing with people that do not always say what they mean, and rely on mind reading technique <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Probably most of the people you meet will not be at your level of understanding yourself and what you want in your life. If you expect them to be, I think you are going to be disappointed often. <hr /></blockquote>You know, this may be true, but...

I believe in at least acting as if people will live up to my "high" expectations. It's really the Golden Rule in operation: treat them with the honesty and openness that I want from them. Sometimes this teaches them a new and better way of interacting, and they rise to the challenge. Other times...I am disappointed. That's OK. I will continue to hope, continue to protect myself as necessary, and (no doubt) continue to be disappointed.

I believe I am a pretty realistic idealist, but...I am an idealist nonetheless.

You know, at first I was once again re-upset by Belonging to Nowhere's reply, but then I thought, "You know what, CJ? You decide how you feel and how you react. You can choose something else if you'd like to."

I am just going to say this. You are entitled to your opinion, Belonging, but mine differs GREATLY!!!!!!

Otherwise, I'm taking this way (WAY, WAY) too seriously, so I'm going to choose to learn what I can from this and laugh. I'm going to choose to listen to my wise council because I know and trust them, and I'm going to let other people learn their lessons in their own time.

It has been an interesting way to learn!

CJ

OK, I haven't read all 54 pages of this thread, mostly just the first page or so. Man, these folks on the D/D forum. Just think if it'd been "Sex on the First Date". It'd rival the "Kingdom of Caerlon" thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well you know, CJ, what I think since I quoted Dr. Harley on x number of dates a while back. Easy for a married guy to say. Wish I could get that many dates w/the wife <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . Anyway I just looked again and it's dating at least 30 people not just 30 dates. Last time I brought this up it seems like the discussion centered on how long it takes to find the right person or figure out what kind of person is right for us.

Maybe it just takes that long for us to learn to not bend our standards in order to convince ourselves that someone is Mr./Ms. right because we're impatient, lack confidence, etc. I posted on a different thread that POJA, which seems to require that both partners can negotiate from a position of strength, seems to me the acid test of whether a relationship can really be good.

Well you've passed this test. You're learning the difference between compromising on legitimate needs of another person and compromising in a bad way. All us guys think about sex dang near all the time, but this guy is a jerk and an idiot. You're not letting your understandable desire to find that right one cause you to lie to yourself and pretend otherwise.

My 17-1/2 cents worth. No charge. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Steve

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulNewCJ:
 If he had raped me in my own home, I realize that some people indeed would say, "Well if you hadn't worn that lowcut dress..." and "You shouldn't have gotten drunk..." or "You invited him into your home for a nightcap!!!" I do realize that SOME people really do think like that!! <hr /></blockquote>OK CJ, you know where I stand on the issue with your date. Now I'm fixing to get flamed......

In the above scenario there would be no justification for the raper's actions. He was wrong and should be hung by his balls from the tallest flagpole. HOWEVER, if someone takes person responsibility for their actions then many times they are not put into a position of compromise and therefore they wouldn't of been dressed so scantly, drunk, and inviting a crazy freaking stranger to their house....

In closing, sweety, I believe you a bit on the naive side on this thread. Bottom line is you have to look at things through reality and not as if everyone has the same morals as you.

And finally, you've spent a great deal of time defending on this thread and then moved to laughing, I suspect as a defense mech... If one person tells you that you have a tail it's usually you can laugh it off but if ten people tell you that you have a tail you may want to look in the mirror.......

Please note that my comments are made with care and concern for you with the hopes that they will spur growth........

CJ,

I think it's odd that your having such a hard time accepting that some people ARE like this--

I mean--we are ALL Sinners--and we all have our own weaknesses and strengths--and you would prefer to date a man who has self-control, and who respects your boundaries and there is nothing wrong with that--and look at your ex--wasn't he much the same way?? Didn't he run over your boundaries and disrespect you?? had no self-control--so why do you think others wouldn't be like this??? It doesn't mean it is right--but they are out there--

but let's look some important fact's here--

1. This man has some self-control as he didn't rape you--but apparently doesn't like that other's have self-control--per his reaction to your requirements for dating you--

2. He's a boundary breaker--as he continued to persist and push your boundaries--(you have grown just think back some years--had a man pushed like this before how would you have responded??) most likely as I have in the past--and that was just to give in--to get the man to shut up--and then I would carry the guilt and shame of giving in when it's not what I wanted--

Which really boils down to his lack of respect for you--

Now, here is where this is helpful--as I have suggested to you before--make a list of things you want and don't want in a relationship--this can top the list as lack of respect--and gives two ways to identify disrespectful behavior--as red flags to look for from future dates--

Now, I don't know how many guy's you dated before you married--years ago--so if it was only a few--
look back to those relationships as well and see what it was you 'liked' about them--and things you didn't like about them--and you can use those lessons learned towards the suggested 30 people--you date before you marry--

I know there was at least one man who treated you w/ respect--and had qualities you liked--but for whatever reasons the relationship ended--so look back to that relationship as well--and see what happened that caused it to end--what traits did he have that you liked and didn't like--and include those in your list--

Going through my divorce and even after, I took the time to really look back at ALL of my past relationships--the one's I thought were good--and the one's I didn't think were as good--both short term and long term relationships the really sad thing I found--is that *I* was one really emotionally screwed up child--

I found the relationships I thought were good--had a lot of abuses in them--the one's I didn't think were good actually had more respect going for them than anything--so I had to look within myself and find out why I thought abuse was normal in a relationship--and only then could I make a list of things I wanted and didn't want--
to get the marriage I have now--

[ September 01, 2004, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]

Alright, this will be my final post on this thread no matter what anyone writes. This is getting ridiculous!

I am not saying that there are not people out there in the world who are date-rapists...or that I can't understand that this particular fella did not have the moral fortitude to stop at my boundary...or that everyone in the world has my dating standards...or that I should be allowed to were a slinky dress, get drunk, and invite strangers into my home. That really would be denying reality!

As I see it, there are PLENTY of shallow, immature men out there trying to date--probably or possibly because they are shallow and immature! There are PLENTY of 40-50yo "men" out there with the emotional IQ of children who expect someone to "put out" if they take a female to dinner. That is reality.

When I started this thread, I was basically asking, "Whoa! I thought dating an older man who was a parent would be different than dating when I was in my 20's!" If the real live dating standard in the U.S. at this time is the expectation of sex on the second date, then I am WAY out of step and would like to be aware of that. I thought I might get replies that said "Yep, that's the current expectation" or "No, you just happened to run across an immature one."

What I did NOT expect is to be blamed for the choices my date made to continue to pressure me for sex even after I said no. What I did NOT expect was to have the finger pointed at me for being brazen enough to ask someone to my home. Guess what?? I highly doubt I will EVER ask any of you into my home because asking someone to my home apparently means they have the right to sex!! What I did NOT expect was for people to tell me, "Well get with the times, lady. This is the way men are and we can't possibly expect them to control themselves or act like a gentleman or treat you respectfully."

THAT it what I can not be understanding about. I mean this sincerely--if that is the way that I need to expect men to treat me, I am turning gay. I don't care if it is not "reality" I will not accept blame for inviting someone to my home. I won't. He had NO RIGHT to sexually assault me just because I asked him to watch TV with me, and if you think he did, then I do not want to associate with you. I also don't care if it is not "reality" but when someone chooses to make a criminal choice against me, I WILL NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS. Period. I am not responsible for him choosing to force my hand into his crotch, and if you think I am, then YOU are not in reality. Finally, I also will not just allow men to treat me like a sexual piece of meat "because that's how they are." Sorry--that does not fly with me!!!!!! If a man wants to be in my life, he needs to grow some balls, grow some self-respect and self-control, treat me like a lady, and respect me. I'm more than willing to be completely alone forever, because I'm taking THAT kind of treatment or nothing.

Now...I will be reporting this thread to the moderators, asking that they lock it, and asking that they show SERIOUS concern for people who keep advocating that I should "accept" that a sexual assault was MY PROBLEM because I won't take personal responsibility.

Here's my personal responsibility: it was a lapse of judgment to ask him over to my home on the second date.

As I review in my head, here's what I DID to take responsibility: I spoke what I wanted and expected OUT LOUD. I spoke with my kids about it first to be sure they were okay with it. I spoke my intentions OUT LOUD. Each time he persisted, I said "NO" or said "no" AND pulled back. I reached out to friends when I thought I might need some assistance in making my own thoughts clearer. I spoke up for myself and used the W-T-F-S format. I reached my own conclusion that being with a person like that did NOT work for me. I spoke up for THAT and did so in a respectful but firm W-T-F-S way.

What the hell else do you want from me!!!???

CJ

Oh, BTW, I wasn't really, literally laughing. I was just saying, that life is too short to get my undies in a bundle over this, and there's too much stuff in my life that is GOOD to let a thread get to me like that. I could choose to enjoy the good things rather than letting a stupid thread bother me. Guess what?? I don't think that anymore.

And if another sexual assault victim EVER comes on MB, do not EVER blame her again!!!

Goodbye and good riddance. I seriously can not believe that not ONE person said, "Holy Smoke, CJ what happened to you was seriously not alright. Yes, there are some men out there that may act like that, but you sure didn't ask to be assaulted." NO--God forbid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Let's play the semantics game a moment.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
You are getting the words, "understanding" and "acceptable (meaning okay)" interchanged.

I can possibly "understand" possibly why he did what he did but it is still not "acceptable".

"Holy Smoke, CJ what happened to you was seriously not alright!"

CJ,

I didn't say that specifically in my posts, but it certainly is my thought. I've read this thread with much interest, but an equal amount of sorrow at what it seems the world has become.

I do think, from what I see on here, and from what I hear from my friends, some of whom are already suggesting that I date, the morals of the world have gone seriously downhill, even for people our age. (And my 2 cents to the "dating" thread--I am MARRIED, thus it would be a SIN to date! Even if I am separated and in the process of D!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

It saddens me. I am okay being single for a while, but I don't really relish the thought of being single for the rest of my life. I'm not 40 yet! But I also will not compromise my beliefs just because it's "okay" nowadays to have sex a few dates after you meet someone. It's NOT! It only leads to heartache.

And just because men think of sex more often than women might is NOT justification for them not to be able to control themselves. Sorry, that's weak...

So CJ, I don't think you are in the wrong. I think you have the right outlook on what life should be in God's eyes. I think, unfortuntely, that the answer to the question you were asking may in fact be "yes, many men do expect sex on the second (or shortly therafter) date." Apparently they don't share God's outlook.

LL

I highly doubt I will EVER ask any of you into my home because asking someone to my home apparently means they have the right to sex!!
Where did you ever read that in this thread?
You seem to be trying to interpret what everyone wrote rather than reading it as posted.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulNewCJ:
I seriously can not believe that not ONE person said, "Holy Smoke, CJ what happened to you was seriously not alright. Yes, there are some men out there that may act like that, but you sure didn't ask to be assaulted."<hr /></blockquote>Well, I may not have actually said that, but I certainly thought something equivalent. It was certainly not all right.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Here's my personal responsibility: it was a lapse of judgment to ask him over to my home on the second date.<hr /></blockquote>I agree. But at the same time, there's a part of me that thinks "Wow. After all you've been through, CJ, instead of being jaded and paranoid, you are still trusting enough to make that lapse of judgment possible. That's beautiful."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:
 CJ, instead of being jaded and paranoid, you are still trusting enough to make that lapse of judgment possible. That's beautiful." <hr /></blockquote>And scary....

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LostHusband:
And scary.... <hr /></blockquote>Alas, yes.

CJ:

Posted by CJ-
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Several times during the night he made comments about wanting to get into the bedroom, wanting to touch (edited physical areas), or other sexual comments. It made me uncomfortable! I wasn't uncomfortable because I'm a sexual prude, but it was like these constant little comments about sex, sex, sex--and I just thought it was INAPPROPRIATE!!!
<hr /></blockquote>Maybe this thread did not go in the direction you were hoping for because there are others (like me) that do not interpret "uncomfortable" and "inappropriate" to mean "sexual assault" which is what you are calling the incident on page 4. Your complaint on page 1 was not about a sexual assault but "comments about sex, sex, sex."

Just a thought!

Hummmmmm

Just a thought here then I'll duck, drop and roll (cause I'm sure CJ will light my butt on fire)

The whole point in dating is getting to know someone. Learning to understand each other and what they're saying. Until that happens (sometimes it never does) people work on signals and assumptions.

Now don't get me wrong Cindy, I'm NOT saying what this guy did was excusable in any way AND pushing it was way bad, BUT!!!! (getting ready to run)

maybe the initial expectation was brought on by mixed signals.

I think (I do really) that dating should be kept in public (at safe places) until the two people involved have some understanding and trust of each other. I don't feel home alone is a good second date. Maybe a 6th or 7th date, but no way a second.

As for introductions to the kids.... No way until you either get busted by them or your committed to exclusively seeing him (yucky L stuff)

I'm done... (quickly wrapping 3 layers of Reynolds Wrap around my whole body and running for the river)

Well, HarryS, CJ has stated that she is no longer going to post to this thread, so I hope you will permit me to light your butt on fire in her stead. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

What "mixed signals" could have led Mr. Wrong to believe his behavior was acceptable? I can think of only two. First was the fact that CJ invited him over to her house, and at most that might "legitimately" have led him to believe that there was a possibility of "something" happening. In no way could it justify more than a polite query or overture in that direction, and an equally polite rebuff should have put an end to that line of speculation. The other possible "signal" was the fact that CJ did not throw him out of her house the moment he demonstrated that he did not understand the meaning of the word "no." That, however, would not be a signal that what he was doing was justifiable, but rather that he might be able to get away with behaving like the despicable cad he is.

As for not bringing a date home (leaving aside the introduction-to-the-kids issue which we apparently disagree on), there are two possible reasons for that "rule." The first is to avoid temptation, if there is reason to believe that such temptation might arise. The second is to protect oneself against assault and scandal. Some people are more oblivious or careless of the risks than others, and in the end I think it is a judgment call. I imagine that CJ will take a more prudent tack in the future.

Just jumping in here to give my point of view.

When I was dating before I got married, I assumed each man I dated was a crazed sex offender. So I went to public places with them - I even met them there in my car.

Over time, you can figure out who can be trusted and who can't. But it takes time. To the ones who aren't willing to put in the time, I said "See Ya".

By the way, I never did go out with any crazy ones, because they are not willing to put in the effort and time required.

I agree 100%. Never invite a man into your home until he has passed the test to very serious dating material. I'ld say for atleast a couple of months, only go to public places. Only inside to pick you up, and say goodbye at the door with a kiss if you want.

Men only respect what they have to work for. This dating time will set the theme for your entire relationship.

I've been reading tons of dating books and now I know all the mistakes I have made in the past...and believe me I made a lot. The biggest one was not demanding respect. And not waiting long enough before sex to go through all the necessary stages of courtship. If only I knew then what I know now.

When you get to the stage of petting, make sure he knows how far you are willing to go i.e. first base, etc., so there are no mixed signals. Men get angry if they think they are being teased and led on. Always be honest about what is going on sexually.

I agree Weaver. And dating is just like trying to sell a house. They say you have to show your house to an average of 14 people before someone puts in an offer.

Same with men, you will probably have to go through 14 to find a keeper.

Hopefully you won't sleep with all 14 on the second date <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

WoW! I thought I was clear....

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by HarryS:

Now don't get me wrong Cindy, I'm NOT saying what this guy did was excusable in any way AND pushing it was way bad, BUT!!!! (getting ready to run)

maybe the initial expectation was brought on by mixed signals.
<hr /></blockquote>This guy's pushing it was over the line and in NO way Cindy's fault in anyway (unless she's leaving out the part where she changed into black latex and spiked heels and tossed condoms at him)....

I dunno...wasn't there. I was at home, in bed with a hat on.

After the first 'no' he should have relaxed it. After the second 'no', she should have asked him to leave.

After three or more 'no's' the guy may have thought it was a game... but then of course his behavior on the phone proved he was just a plain ole everyday jerk.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by weaver:
Men only respect what they have to work for.<hr /></blockquote>This bothers me. If I could have sex with a woman by "working for" it - by, say, showering her with gifts, and spending time with her, and saying sweet things in her ear - then I'm afraid I wouldn't have much respect for...myself.

I treat women with respect because I want to be the kind of man who treats women with respect.

If I have a romantic interest in a woman (as in fact I do), that interest does not involve me fantasizing about having sex with her, and thinking about what I might do to achieve that "goal." Rather, I am thinking about how we might enrich each other's lives, and what sorts of things I might be able to do to support her in her journey. I am praying about God showing each of us whether it is His plan to join our roads together.

I desire to show my love for her because I love her, not because I hope to "win her heart." In fact, I do not want to "win her heart," because I want her heart to be guided by God's will for her and not by my manipulations (however well-intentioned).

Gnome -

Exactly! But men get lazy when everything comes too easy. They stop thinking about the courting part of the dance. The relationship is stunted because sexual intimacy came too soon.

From what I have learned about men and women, now that I am older is that dating is a dance. It is a courtship, and you can't jump right into bed because men do want to have to work at the relationship, at wooing a women he desires and respects. I'm not saying men have to work at it to get sex, but so much of a womens mystery is lost once this happens.

I used to think that sex brought on closer intimacy, but now I know that it stunts true intimacy, the intimacy that only comes from slowly getting to know someone, step by step. From holding hands all the way up to the expression of love through sex, which takes a long time.

This is what I didn't know as a young girl, and I think I damaged a lot of potentially great relationships by sleeping with the guy too soon.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by becontent:
 CJ:

Maybe this thread did not go in the direction you were hoping for because there are others (like me) that do not interpret "uncomfortable" and "inappropriate" to mean "sexual assault" which is what you are calling the incident on page 4. Your complaint on page 1 was not about a sexual assault but "comments about sex, sex, sex."

Just a thought! <hr /></blockquote>I certainly agree with this!

Your reactions seem out of proportion to the comments that were posted in response to your original question. One guess why would be that you didn't give all the information in your original post, yet expected responses based on this missing information.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I will not accept blame for inviting someone to my home. <hr /></blockquote>I didn't see anyone "blame" you for anything. What I saw was quite a few people that are concerned for your safety pointing out some dangers of inviting someone into your home.

Gnome,
This bothers me. If I could have sex with a woman by "working for" it - by, say, showering her with gifts, and spending time with her, and saying sweet things in her ear - then I'm afraid I wouldn't have much respect for...myself.
So you should not have to do anything (like show this person that you care or love her) in order to have sex? She should simply give it to you because?

I desire to show my love for her because I love her, not because I hope to "win her heart."
In the big picture of the relationship, you show your love for her only BECAUSE you get something in return.
If you were to get nothing, you would very soon lose interest.
Yes, you don't think outright, "in order fo rher to give me a hug, I will say she looks nice".

All (okay most, unless you are a stalker <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )relationships are give & take (hey, that would be a good name for a book!)

Rather, I am thinking about how we might enrich each other's lives, and what sorts of things I might be able to do to support her in her journey.
This is what I mean. You support her because she supports you in some way. She is giving you SOMEHTHING in return, else you would not do it much longer.

[ September 01, 2004, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by weaver:
But men get lazy when everything comes too easy. They stop thinking about the courting part of the dance. The relationship is stunted because sexual intimacy came too soon.<hr /></blockquote>I agree that the journey through intimacy is an important one, and that an element of delayed gratification enhances a man's appreciation of a woman and her mystery, but...

I hope and trust and pray that I never stop thinking about "the courting part of the dance," even if/after marriage and sexual intimacy happens. It is to me a very great loss that, for some time before my wife left me and then since she left me, and yet again with my lady friend, I am not permitted that dance. I understand about the pressures of everyday life, but why would anyone want to end the dance?

Well Gnome -

I don't know if it's where I live or the types of guys I know, but have not had too much experience with men like you.

I am more to the opinion of Chris, that you give something because you get something out of it. A hug, a pretty, warm smile, a genuine thank you, etc.

I do agree that the dance should never end, and that is why we have the Harley MB concepts, so we can always have that "dance" in our relationship.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
So you should not have to do anything (like show this person that you care or love her) in order to have sex? She should simply give it to you because?<hr /></blockquote>She would choose to engage in sex if that were consistent with her values and desires. Ordinarily, her desires would be affected by my demonstrations of love and care. However, those demonstrations would not be conducted for the purpose of receiving sex in return.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />In the big picture of the relationship, you show your love for her only BECAUSE you get something in return.
If you were to get nothing, you would very soon lose interest.<hr /></blockquote>True to a degree, but here's where I believe that the Harleys' principles are overly simplistic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

If the Harleys' Love Bank concepts were completely correct, I should have fallen out of love with my ex-wife long before she left me. Why didn't I?

I received joy from watching her be herself. Sometimes I received an expression of her appreciation, but whether you choose to believe it or not, the windows and entrances she provided to her world were enough to keep me "interested."

And what about those situations where a spouse becomes mentally incapacitated? What keeps that person's husband or wife showing love?

In the end, it still comes down to being a choice.

She would choose to engage in sex if that were consistent with her values and desires. Ordinarily, her desires would be affected by my demonstrations of love and care. However, those demonstrations would not be conducted for the purpose of receiving sex in return.
That is why I put the statement about the big picture. One is not out to specifically look for sex or dinner, but it is implied (as in situations such as marriage).

If the Harleys' Love Bank concepts were completely correct, I should have fallen out of love with my ex-wife long before she left me.
I don't understand this. What is the time-frame for falling out of love with someone who is not meeting your needs?

Why didn't I?
Because she was filling SOME of your needs. She did not leave.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the big picture of the relationship, you show your love for her only BECAUSE you get something in return.
If you were to get nothing, you would very soon lose interest.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

True to a degree, but here's where I believe that the Harleys' principles are overly simplistic.
Then why didn't you simply choose to not love your wife anymore?

When you start dating/courting/whatever with someone, you do it for a reason. They cook good, have similar interests, a good sense of humor, etc. You don't randomly pick someone off the street. And if you do (as in a blind date), you do it with the hopes that they have something which will pique your interest.

If after a while, they don't give you something back (companionship, doing things together, sex, laughter, whatever) you will lose interest. (Hey, in MB it's kinda like Plan B. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

[ September 01, 2004, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

"Holy Smoke, CJ what happened to you was seriously not alright. Yes, there are some men out there that may act like that, but you sure didn't ask to be assaulted."

I would just like to say: "What a clumsy doofus!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
If the Harleys' Love Bank concepts were completely correct, I should have fallen out of love with my ex-wife long before she left me.
I don't understand this. What is the time-frame for falling out of love with someone who is not meeting your needs?<hr /></blockquote>I'm assuming that that time-frame is on the order of years.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Why didn't I?
Because she was filling SOME of your needs. She did not leave.<hr /></blockquote>My objection, such as it is, to the Love Bank concept is that Harley focuses closely on several specific emotional needs, whereas in reality there are others he ignores which may be at least as important. Note that some ENs require active effort, whereas others (such as Attractive Spouse, at least in youth) may be fairly passive. I agree that my ex-wife was in fact meeting enough of my ENs, which she did just by giving me the opportunity to share in her world. This was relatively passive on her part, but it went a long way redressing the active imbalance.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
why didn't you simply choose to not love your wife anymore?<hr /></blockquote>I could have made that choice, but that would have required me to alter my character in a direction I did not want to go. The price was too high.

My ex-wife obviously made a different calculation, although in hindsight it is fairly apparent that her initial estimation of the cost was grossly inadequate. She did not understand the domino effect that occurs once you begin to betray your own values.

... wow... what a turn...

...and what pearls I found here in the ocean of surface souls nowadays...

[ September 02, 2004, 06:16 AM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]

Hey CJ!!!

Gotta tell ya, you are way out of line here. I'm kinda on the same track with Bill here, cripes if I didn't get sex before the first date, why should I bother?

Sorry, I didn't read all the many pages, because I want sex now... so... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ok, I hope you know I'm just busting. We are all older and wiser. I'm just happy to have a chance to talk to G lately with all the kid's activities and my Mom staying with us.

We were planning a bubble bath last night,[Mom was being cared for my her cousin at home] but, that didn't quite happen. When to a neighbor's party and Ian hit a girl, left a pretty good mark on her arm, and boy, I'll tell ya I have never seen G that mad before. So, obviously that tubby never occured.

We are in the process of fixing that. [The tubby and Ian's anger management] Adult's night where we make time for ourselves.

So, basically I gotta tell you that the old phrase "weight [wait] broke the wagon doesn't work for me anymore" You will know when it's the right time. For real I didn't get a chance to real all the pages, Mr. Mom [ME] has to get up at 06:00 so I hope this reply doesn't sound dumb. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />