Disclaimer:

I am a koolaid drinking fan of Dr. Harley's methods. I love MB and on a personal level, MB saved ME. Additionally, this is only MY OPINION.

The reason I say "nearly" impossible is because I have seen some marriages recover from an affair involving an OC. We have some members here that are both the BS and WS with recovered marriages. Some marriages with contact and some without. I do believe that these marriages were strong to begin with and easier to recover. Then there are those like mine who are not in true "recovery" and are limping along.

An OC, especially when it is the WH with the OC, bring a dimension to the affair that most betrayed spouses cannot begin to fathom. The OC is often used as bait or a weapon agains the WH. Because we women want to give our children a "family", the OC gives the OW even more incentive to "win" the WH from the BW. The WH often suffers from guilt for "abandoning" the pregnant OW, after all we do teach our son's to be responsible don't we? I have seen over and over OW's that used the pregnancy to their advantage. Funny how this same tactic doesn't work when the BW is pregnant during the affair.

After the OC is born, there is the typical "how can you abandon your child" cries. Some men, like my H, fall for that. In my case OW went so far as to befriend my MIL/SIL during the pregnancy. Too bad my COM lost WH's family to OC. Actually that loss is the WH's families, obviously my COM have no lost much. :RollieEyes:

And so begins the tug of war between the BW/COM and the OW/OC with the WH trying to "please" everyone (read himself) while refusing to do DNA, legally get visitation or truly go NC with the OC and commit to his existing family.

More to come later. Comments welcome.

To continue there are several "extra" factors in dealing with an A that resulted in an OC. One is the constant reminder of the A in the form of the OC. Even when NC is in place, the BW has to live with knowing her H's DNA is out there in the form of a child. The family finances are affected by having to pay child support, life insurance on the WH for the OC, medical insurance, constant court costs when the OW keeps taking the FWH back to court etc. Added pain for the BW when the OC is the "first" child of the FWH. If he attended the birth of the OC, those "firsts" got shared with someone else instead of the BW.

My WH attended the OC birth. His misguided notion that somehow he could "control" the outcome by being there. He signed child support and "custody" (what a joke) papers without telling me. Never thinking that everything he does affects me and our COM.

Recovery is difficult when a wayward tries to balance "two families". My WH will tell you he only has one family, ours. But OW would tell you a different story. He gives her juuuust enough attention via phone calls and brief visits with OC to let her believe this.

Recovery from an A involving an OC with a person that already has weak boundaries is painfully impossible. Until the wayward learns to have boundaries, the betrayed spouse must protect themselves.

Recovery is even more difficult when you factor in the guilt the BW feels about the OC if they decide on NC. It is also very difficult to take your focus off the OP when an OC is involved. If you have C, then the OP is constantly a presence in the M. If you are NC, you still have this pain you carry around knowing your H had a child with someone else and knowing OC is without a father.

I'm not religious but if I was i'd be giving you an 'AMEN to that' X

((((Faithy))))),

This just barely begins to touch on it. As you know we are NC. Yes there is guilt for me because of it. Guilt I don't deserve because I didn't do anything wrong. But that guilt is balanced by the good done for my COM. And your absolutely right, even with NC, and lately the OW has been following the rules and been NC with us, even with the NC, she is present in my life every day. She intrudes into my thoughts. She also intrudes into my FWH, not because he wants anything from her, but with guilt and remorse that is carried everyday, knowing that he is responsible for the destruction caused in so many lives because of his actions, even more so her actions. We both have nightmares that we wake up from, his worst ones are me leaving and being with someone else and not caring about him. Even as we continue to move forward and are slowly healing, it effects us. The CS is outrageous and with today's economy, the effect on our family daily is there. How do I pay the bills this month? and he knows how much easier it would be for us if half of what he brought home wasn't going to CS. God forbid she want more right now.......

I know that things are getting better for us only because of NC. I know that there are Angels out there that have C and are a boon to the OC, but, I can't imagine the ongoing pain, mistrust, of having to know that C exists. Having that OP daily physically present in our M, disrupting and continuing to try and destroy, heedless of the damage caused to the BS or the COM, concerned only about theirself and their OC.

I hope that you are working your way to a place where things can improve, not just living with the status quo, if it doesn't meet your expectations.

(I'll check back later may be a few days, visiting my parents for the weekend)

Fled

You are such a blessing FTS!

So are you Faithy.

Not a day goes by that I don't think about you and yours.

faith i rarely roll this way but you certainly deserve this

[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[FF]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] times infinety and beyond

not that it matters from the likes of me. some strange, opinionated male on the other end of cyber space.

i have been watching for this thread of yours for some time. my thinking was it would be so easy to just jump right in with my typical blah blah btdt answers. turns out to be more difficult then i thought

it is so sad to see someone like you who has worked so hard and helped so many to be struggling with this unending problem

sitting on the other side of the fence from you as a h raising his w's oc i have similar problems, only different.

i think fh and i are doing pretty well but also see where many times we are just "limping" along also. maybe it is complacency (?) or just being tired of the constant battle that allows us to plod on that way. maybe it's spme fear of something or lack of being able to see a different future then what our past has shown us.

it is at those times when things slip back into my mind.

i do not attribute them to my w's A tho. what i attribute them to is her lack of fulfilling/meeting my biggest en's.

is your h "really" meeting all your en's? and is he meeting them in a way that YOU need them met? not as he feels they should be.

Hey pops! In many ways he is a far better H and father than he has ever been. He is fully HERE when home. He helps with the kids. He cooks, does home repairs, cares what our home looks like and when I feel ill he takes care of me. Does he meet my EN's the way I need him to? Not really. One of my top EN's is openness and honesty. He can't meet that and still have secrets. Financial Support and Domestic support he meets well. He is incredibly good with money and has done a great job with what we have. I could use some romance but he has never been that guy, so I don't expect that to change. He does LISTEN to me though which is a huge change.

I think we limp along because the elephant is always in the room with us.

FF - I agree with you in some ways. It is better that any contact with the OC be driven by the BS.

I made the mistake of letting the OW have too much say in our relationship. We paid CS, for food, dental bills, medical bills, costs for the OW moving from house to house. It was a neverending money pit.

One time, OW had no money and we sent her $1,000. She bought a pony. YIKES!!!!

However, after 20 years, my sons and OC have hooked up. She is still in our life. And many of her fondest memories involve us - her family.

B, thanks for your input. I would lay bets your M would have been better off without so much involvement of the OW. I am so happy that as adults your kids have an R with the OC.

You are exactly right, FF. Dealing with a woman who didn't care about the OC, but only getting back into the affair was hard.

Our marriage ended because of his alcoholism, nothing to do with the OC or her mom.

If I had it to do over again, I think I would have split with WH, and that would have been that.

FF,

Is he willing to discuss the secret visits at all. Does he keep them secret because of your reaction to the visit with the OC, or because of your reaction to the OW's presence? Or, is it solely because he isn't doing what he is supposed to be in regards to protecting the M with her again? Can it be discussed in a way that communication about visitation can take place calmly? Does his secret visits with OC take him away from time you feel he should be spending somewhere else, With you, your COM.......?

Blessings,

Fled

FTS, from our past conversations I believe his reasoning is two fold. 1. he doesn't like my reaction to OW being there. In his mind, there is no A because the PA stopped 2.5 years ago. 2. He doesn't want to ruffle OW's feathers. He thinks eventually she will "allow" him to just take OC. We all know that is not true.

FF are you willing to do contact? I mean why is he allowing her power with visation? I'm very confused. It's not up to her if you are involved or not. He's got a family and you can't keep a person's family away from the child just because. I don't think you have a offender record or do drugs so I'm just confused over this.

I know you guys pay cs right? So what would it take to take her back to court for visation? He's been seeing the child so she can't use that against him.

FF,

Does he not have a regular visitation? Only gets together with OC with OW?

Does he ever read any of this stuff? That this is not a divorce, this was an A, that the NC is forever......that NC not only helps protect the M and prevent anything from restarting but more importantly it takes your feelings about them "hanging together" into account, as the top priority, which is what it should and needs to be?

Fled

He honestly does not want to hear any of it, fled.

you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink....i wish him a bang on the head which leads to an epiphany and suddenly becoming the man you deserve who treats you like the angel you have been to others, myself included xx

((((FF))))

I don't know what else might be helpful for you

Fled

It's alright, fled. Some day when I am gone he may realize the mistake. The point of this thread wasn't help for me. Honestly I don't think there is anything that will help. He has to open his own eyes. I just wanted to post some realities for those coming into this situation that it is full of potholes.

It still sucks!!!!!

Odd, I woke up this morning thinking about DS and whether he might not be mine. And then this is the first thread I read.

You sure are sounding more and more like me, ff. I could have written this. I have written this.
I do not know if DS is an OC. He may be. But that knowledge I cannot face. In that I am a coward. Would not matter to me anyway.

It is way past the time where opening her eyes could make any difference now. Not to me.

This should be recommended much more around here than it is. Imagine the wasted and unnecessary pain that would be avoided. But I have written this before too. Many times.

I think they are bigger than potholes - sink holes is closer to the truth - big ones - like the car swallowing sinkholes we sometimes see on the news

Appy, I often read your posts these days and say "yup that is where I am". I still love my H, unfortunately. It makes it harder to let go of hope. In so many ways he has changed. He trys to hard to fill my EN's and holds on to me when I pull away...but the dishonesty, I cannot live with forever.

You are right, Pep. Sink holes is a much better descriptive.

Update:

We are almost 4 weeks into official visitation with OC. He is a charming boy. So far so good. Life gets better when everything is not kept only between the AP's.

Hi Faith, I didn't know about this latest development. I'm totally out of touch. You are the most patient, loving wife and I hope this new path leads to greater happiness for you all.

Awww, thank you TT!

FF

You are an encouragment and a blessing to a great number of people, dont ever forget that.

I do agree with you throwing children in the mix makes it near impossible. You know my situation well and you know my h's selfishness and ncp tendencies and I do believe I know when the turning point was for him.

He had this notion that the OW was so loyal to him and that these children would give the world for him and all they ever wanted was to be in his life daily. (Not saying that isnt true for the children and that they havent been negatively influenced by their own unrepentent mother). Constantly no matter what it was, even when I made the suggestion for a visit, everything with the cooperation of my MIL was being turned around into I was the problem and that everything would be fine if it wasnt for me, etc... Well, the fog did lift one day, finally.

And my h couldnt ignore any more that the OW didnt care about how the children were hurt, she just wanted her way or else. Only then did he start to see them (the mother and the ill mannered teenage girl) in the light of day. They always spun everything as a big pity party for themselves and how much they were so hurt and he fell for it hook, line and sinker.

It wasnt until my h started to see the truly unhappy and vindicative and spiteful nature, not only against me but against our d who never did anything to them and towards him, that he woke up.

Most bs will not be fortunate for the veil to fall off however before they have reached a point of personal no return for themselves.

I took the high road, and I put the concern for all the children (2 OC and 2 COM) first above myself and my marriage because that is what I personally felt was the right thing to do at the time. I didnt see that the OW was just playing games and never being honest and all along no matter what she said, ever opportunity she would run to talk to my h....because as the classical OW believes she had a lifetime right to talk to him because she got pregnant which therefore justified her whoredom as something else.

And what I will advise any newly discovered bs, never agree to c with the ow, a truly respectable repentent woman with more concern for her own child than herself will be willing to step out of the way and not insist on a continued r with your h allegedly for the 'child'.

wblessed, I don't know how I missed this post but thank you! As I posted to FullMoon today, I had just come to accept I would never meet the OC and my H would never changed and what happens? We have visitation now and H is changing. Last Sunday he voluntarily went before our entire church to confess the A, tell them about the OC and ask for their forgiveness/prayers. It was beautiful. I truly was skeptical up to the moment it happened, but he was sincere. He is really trying to be open and honest now. He still falters when it is something that he fears my reaction. We have discussed this recently that he needs to be honest even if he knows it will upset me. He knows, change is slow to him. Will our M make it? I think we have a much better chance now.


I completely agree! Though if the WH is determined, they will just take the A further underground. That is why trusting your gut is so important.

bump