Marriage Builders
In a current thread (OW doesn't want w involved)someone (former ow) mentioned that ow pay (have regrets).

I want to know for one or two reasons (here goes list queen again, I can't help it, I'm an analyst by profession)

1. I want to know how they pay because I want to understand some of ow's actions and fears. We have contact on a regular basis w/ lil lady. Some of her (ow) antics drive us banannas! Maybe if I knew what was under her skin I could write the drama off a little easier. Instead, I find myself retreating to the tightly-sealed bag of resentment and reconciling her behavior based on a plentiful variety of disgust, loathing, anger, mistrust, etc. I hate going into the bag....the contents stink and takes too much time and energy to reseal!

2. Part of me wants to know that she hurts too. As ugly as it is, I just want to know that she'll have the same tears to cry as my husband and myself. Believe it or not, we're 2 + years into this, but sometimes the pain is still unimaginable.

Thanks in advance for those that will take time to share honest feelings.
Matthew,

Well, I know that I am more considered the WS than the XOW, but I could try to shed a little bit of light on your questions.

1. I know that I had suffered quite a bit right after D-day. I suffered w/my guilt of what I had done, and those I had hurt by my actions! I still deal with some of that guilt today, although it is more with the heartache I had caused my H and family, than the xOM and his family. Now, also remember that they never knew( to the best of my knowledge) of the pregnancy, or Abbi's birth, so they have "only" suffered with the A(I quote for only, because I know that A's also cause tremendous pain as well)

2. Unfortunately, I can't say that I also hurt, in that capasity, as I don't have to deal w/xOM or his family. I believe that it is actually best for all involved in our situation, as xOM was VERY violent, and had threatened bodily harm/death to my H during A and after D-day! So, I am actually exstatic that I will never have to see or hear from xOM again! But, I do fear, until that fabeled 2 year point of xOM finding out and contacting us! Of course, from everything else that's been noted on the boards, if H has not and does not contest paternity, xOM can't do anything about it anyway.

Well, that's one perspective on things. Don't know if I helped you out any, just thought I'd share from my side of things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Tigger
Matthew in addition to your list I hope you don't mind me adding, I would like to know why the BS is treated in such a nasty manner by the OW/OM when in fact the betrayed spouse is actually the victim?
I'm not claiming to be a saint here but I do know in my heart and soul that I would never subject a family to the pain that my family is going through. It just makes me wonder what kind of heart these people have. It makes me view them the way I would view a murderer because the OW in our life is ICE COLD and extremely inconsiderate.
Oh, I just want to add I'm not looking to get into a battle I too jst need to try and understand for my own sanity.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Matthew6:14,15:
<strong>
1. I want to know how they pay because I want to understand some of ow's actions and fears.

I've decided to answer here, because I don't want to get caught up in the pissing contest that's going on in the other thread.
1. My actions? Not commendable at all. I know that now. Did I then? No. I have to live with what I've done, and the consequenses of that, for the rest of my life. I love my son more than anything, but it's HARD being a single parent - especially when the other parent isn't involved. All that aside - when you're a single parent because of these circumstances - that makes it even harder. I'm extremely lucky in that my family was supportive of me having the baby - regardless of how he came to be. Some people aren't that lucky (and I'm not just talking about OW or xOW here). Fears? That some day my son may resent me for my actions. I can only hope that I can bring him up to be a better person than that. My hopes? That he'll forgive me, and understand why I did what I did. And that he'll forgive his father for being a [censored], and not being involved in his life.


2. Part of me wants to know that she hurts too. As ugly as it is, I just want to know that she'll have the same tears to cry as my husband and myself. Believe it or not, we're 2 + years into this, but sometimes the pain is still unimaginable.

His father broke my heart. Sometimes the pain of that is still unimaginable. I knew what I was doing was wrong, but I believed him, and I believed IN him. I now realize that everything that I thought was real was a lie. I cry. I cry for the stupidity of my actions. I cry for my son that doesn't know his father. I cry because my son doesn't understand the WHY's of it all, and who knows if he ever will - because sometimes I feel like I still don't understand it all. I cry because some part of me still loves him, and probably always will. And I cry because he is missing out on a wonderful, smart, beautiful child.

I have a lot of trouble trusting people, especially men. I haven't had a great relationship since him. I get close to someone then back off, and break it off because I'm afraid of the same thing happening again. I'm 37 years old. I never wanted to be by myself, not like this. I never wanted to just have 1 child. But I'm now accepting that chances are I will just have one, and I will be alone for the rest of my life because I won't let anyone get that close to me again.

So, you ask if we pay too. Yes, we do. Just not in the same ways.


Thanks in advance for those that will take time to share honest feelings.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fears? That some day my son may resent me for my actions. I can only hope that I can bring him up to be a better person than that. My hopes? That he'll forgive me, and understand why I did what I did. And that he'll forgive his father for being a [censored], and not being involved in his life.

2. Part of me wants to know that she hurts too. As ugly as it is, I just want to know that she'll have the same tears to cry as my husband and myself. Believe it or not, we're 2 + years into this, but sometimes the pain is still unimaginable.

His father broke my heart. Sometimes the pain of that is still unimaginable. I knew what I was doing was wrong, but I believed him, and I believed IN him. I now realize that everything that I thought was real was a lie. I cry. I cry for the stupidity of my actions. I cry for my son that doesn't know his father. I cry because my son doesn't understand the WHY's of it all, and who knows if he ever will - because sometimes I feel like I still don't understand it all. I cry because some part of me still loves him, and probably always will. And I cry because he is missing out on a wonderful, smart, beautiful child.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey All....Matthew as you know we are 2 years into this and beginning year 3, JoshMom I don't know if MM lied to you or not (about being married w/children)....we each have our own story....

In our case ow/ow's H were our mutual friends....
We shared going to dinner and dancing over a two and a half year time frame..... Ow knew H was married to me...was my friend...but not totally...got really mean w/me toward end of A and I couldn't understand it.

H NEVER wanted another child. Ow assured him she was taking BC, after all, she and her H didn't get pregnant during that time, right? Ow made sure she didn't sleep w/her H during July 00 and got pregnant immediately. Didn't tell my H until early Sept 00...H thought it was done although ow kept the calls coming including THE CALL..."I'm pregnant"

Okay now JoshMom....H confessed and exclaimed remorse from day one.

Our 2o year old son's Birthday was weeks away....what a gift, huh?

S suffered severe emotional problems and depression and was in hospital.

H was back home and I asked him to leave again b4 ow delivered a son ( to which our son cried about and was frightened about that Dad will get to start over and like "new son" better....didn't happen)

Ow delivered, H moved home while I was at work begging for me to try us again. Missed me, couldn't be w/o me...yadda, yadda, ok.

We tried for an entire summer w/lawyer help to see oc. We DID one time. For 3 hrs at my begging as ow wrote me and gave me phone number....when I called she wanted H to call....I didn't want H to call....he was my husband and was trying to salvage us....he oblidged...she was nuts....wrote more letters to me and seperately to H...stormed H's office and wouldn't leave (police report)...

Left photos in my mailbox of c.....
pulled in our driveway at night leaning on horn and would leave when we came out....drove by our home and yelled profanity out of window...called me and told me I didn't give good B-jobs! Bumped me while I was walking as ow now walked MY route, parked her car nearby and just followed me! ow lives 3 min. from our house.

A long story short, I went w/H to prosecutor and filed stalking charges, short of PRESSING them, a letter was sent to ow....Ow wouldn't back down on supervised visits at HER home....H said "no way" she called me insecure and him ball-less....still called H's office playing "Stop in the name of love" and "Stop the love you save may be your own"
Woke baby to cry for daddy.......ENOUGH????

It's just our story.
N/C is best. We just want to forget the ugly past and have our home for sale. We need to get far away as ow does things just inside the law to get noticed now.
She's pathetic.

We tried to do what we could. Our S is now married and we have a 9 mo old granddaughter.

H is so greatful for his "second chance" The song by 38 Special is one he played for me over and over.

While a single man may be worthless....you must give it a try, as I am in re-uniting w/H, who I'll never feel the same about after 30 years together...so I guess your not trusting is the same as what a wife is left with, JoshMom....the scar is deep and wide.....closed now but there just the same.

While in no way do I excuse H, he does try to make it up in many loving ways.....more than I can say MM usually does for most ow who surprise them with something they never bargained for. NesPas?

Meanwhile I wish no ill on oc but hope ow suffers in another way for completely coming out of the woods with the affair with a huge big bear attatched to the situation.

No harm meant. Just feelings from the heart.
love
Debi

<small>[ January 13, 2003, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>
Tigger,

Thanks for confirming what I suspect most of the times...dealing with the guilt is probably at least partially to blame for her actions. I'm curious, what do you mean my the fabled 2-year mark?

Robbed,
pls, by all means, add on. You may ask questions that I haven't even thought to ask.

Joshmom,
"1. My actions? Not commendable at all. I know that now. Did I then? No."
I'm curious, when you say you didn't know that, do you mean you were in denial? Do you mean you didn't want to take the time to face the fact that you were wrong? Did you know he was a MM? I'm not being catty, I'm just trying to grasp what I can from your response and desparately apply it to my own situation. Most times, it's like she acts like she did nothing wrong and it's me that has become the thorn in her side. As irrational as this sounds, is that what you mean?

As far as fears, why do you feel he'll resent you? I firmly believe that when children are old enough to know...well...'stuff', they ususally deal with it pretty well. If anything, I would hope after the initial shock/disappointment, he'll be glad (understatement of the year) to know you kept him. As much as I hate to think of it, you had other options.

As far as [censored] dad, well....I don't know what to say there. In our case, we decided contact was best. I'm pretty civil under the worst of circumstances and I'm a Christian (not perfect..just aiming). Was the MM's wife aware of the affair and child? Could she deal with the circumstances? I guess my point is that in most of these cases, the bio parents make awfully difficult choices...is [censored] a fair term for him?

"I cry because some part of me still loves him, and probably always will."
...and this is where the distrust comes in for me. I know she loved (at least in the chemical sense, not the biblical sense) him. They had chemistry, even if it was based on fantasy. My biggest fear is that once all the animosity settles and we relate to each other on a relaxed basis (if this ever happens) that she'll slip in a 'remember when' conversation or innuendo and all hell will break loose. I notice already that she has a much easier time talking to him than to me....hmmmm, wonder why that is???

As far as you trusting again, well coming from a wife that had the biblical, moral and legal right to expect fidelity and honesty and integrity from her partner; trust God. I'm not saying that we shouldn't trust our spouses or partners, but how can we trust people to not hurt us when we make mistakes ourselves? Using that logic, should your son trust you? Ofcourse, you're human and so is he. Don't you think he'll make some not-so-good choices in life?

Joshmom, thanks for your candid response. I hope you find your way back to trusting in the journey of life again.
Hey Gem,

What can I say....I feel ya. I guess in our situation the xow is not as sociopathic. I guess I was just in a slump when I started this post. Reading your reponse is the light at the end of the tunnel. Why?

38 special....making it up to you....your beautiful grandbaby....the realization that love and marriage go hand in hand and are life experiences, not separately held contracts....just curious though...who ever said we were supposed to feel the same way about our spouses year after year?
Even if this tragedy never took place would you still feel the same?
Just askin'....
I don't feel the same way about my H and in some ways, that's a good thing. We had a rotten start and things are much better now. It's funny, I kinda feel like because we've weathered the storm, that we're awesome as a couple. But I can't help but wonder about those that started out better than us and have also weathered this storm. If they stareted out right, are they just as awesome or better now?

babbling...sorry. Thanks Gem.
Originally posted by Matthew6:14,15:

I'm curious, when you say you didn't know that, do you mean you were in denial? Do you mean you didn't want to take the time to face the fact that you were wrong? Did you know he was a MM?
Yes, I knew. And yes, I didn't want to think of the consequences, or his wife, or anything other than the fact that I was in love. Really truly in love. (note that I said I was in love, not "we" - I believed that "we" were, but know differently now) I'm not being catty, I'm just trying to grasp what I can from your response and desparately apply it to my own situation. Most times, it's like she acts like she did nothing wrong and it's me that has become the thorn in her side. As irrational as this sounds, is that what you mean?
Yes, and no. Everyone's situation is different. She DID do something wrong. She slept with someone else's husband.
As far as fears, why do you feel he'll resent you? I firmly believe that when children are old enough to know...well...'stuff', they ususally deal with it pretty well. If anything, I would hope after the initial shock/disappointment, he'll be glad (understatement of the year) to know you kept him. As much as I hate to think of it, you had other options.
I hope so, too. And as far as other options, yes - they were available. But I couldn't have an abortion. I thought of adoption, but couldn't go through with it.
As far as [censored] dad, well....I don't know what to say there. In our case, we decided contact was best. I'm pretty civil under the worst of circumstances and I'm a Christian (not perfect..just aiming). Was the MM's wife aware of the affair and child? She was aware of the affair and OC from the 1st OW. She wasn't aware of mine until after a year or so. Could she deal with the circumstances? I guess my point is that in most of these cases, the bio parents make awfully difficult choices...is [censored] a fair term for him? yes, it is. He is a [censored]. I won't go into specifics, I know that I've posted some examples here before.

"I cry because some part of me still loves him, and probably always will."
...and this is where the distrust comes in for me. I know she loved (at least in the chemical sense, not the biblical sense) him. They had chemistry, even if it was based on fantasy. My biggest fear is that once all the animosity settles and we relate to each other on a relaxed basis (if this ever happens) that she'll slip in a 'remember when' conversation or innuendo and all hell will break loose. I notice already that she has a much easier time talking to him than to me....hmmmm, wonder why that is??? You will have to trust your husband to do the right thing, and just keep it on a civil basis, and that's it. You're all doing what you think is the best thing for the child, and that is to be commended. IF she's got underhanded motives, shame on her.

As far as you trusting again, well coming from a wife that had the biblical, moral and legal right to expect fidelity and honesty and integrity from her partner; trust God. I'm not saying that we shouldn't trust our spouses or partners, but how can we trust people to not hurt us when we make mistakes ourselves? Using that logic, should your son trust you? Ofcourse, you're human and so is he. Don't you think he'll make some not-so-good choices in life?
I've never done anything to my son to make him not trust me. But I see where you're going with this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I can only hope that I can lead him in the right direction, and that he'll make the best choices for himself. I'm sure that he'll make mistakes, we all do. Hopefully they won't be as bad as mine, or his father's.

Joshmom, thanks for your candid response. I hope you find your way back to trusting in the journey of life again.

Thanks, me too.
Matthew,

That 2 year mark is, in most states, the time frame in which the "assumed" father may contest paternity. As I also stated, H has never contested paternity, and as such, is "assumed" the father of Abbi. xOM, as far as we know, never knew about the pregnancy, and has never had a DNA test done, so has nothing to stand on, even if he does come out of the muck to try to claim paternity before Abbi turns 2. Basically, he has no claim to her, and no legal basis to try. Which is the exact way that H and I want it. Hope that cleared up your question.

Tigger
Would I still feel the same?
Matthew I adored my H. I loved the feeling of being exclusive w/him. Many times I thanked God for allowing us our marriage while friends we knew divorced. Maybe it was an innocent way to think.
I never dreamed he'd cheat, let alone have a c w/another woman.

D-day, I can remember the shock so well. As if I heard him say it but I wouldn't let the words inside.

If this never happened, yes, I'd still be the good wife from the seventies.....still feel the same.

Now? Well it's like a shadow always around....not always, but sometimes a wave of sadness comes over me and I must work to get rid of it.

Matthew it's amazing when I look back we stayed together. This site helped alot.

Prayer was the biggest thing. Prayer changes things.

love
Debi
Gem wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I loved the feeling of being exclusive w/him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I felt the same way...I loved knowing that I was exclusive to my H. That out of all we've endured, we belonged together...we were high school sweethearts that found our way back to each other.....

In same ways we are the same...in other ways, our relationship has changed forever. I feel like the one treasure I gave him, myself....was crapped on and peed away...just to satisfy an itch....

I feel at times I have nothing left to believe in when it comes to our marriage. I'm struggling now with my feelings. I'm not one to stuff them down, I explode.

My heart is broken in a million pieces by someone who vowed to "forsake all others (and a hot piece of [censored]) till death do us part...."

How do you regain the trust...slowly, if ever...the trust is totally different...no more is the complete and utter freedom of just relying and relaxing wholely into his arms knowing that I'm safe and that he'd do nothing to hurt me.....

All the "I love you's" "you're beautiful" "I'm glad you're mine" don't mean a thing to me now...

It will never make sense and I have to move on...that's what sucks about all this...my H and his ex-ow brought all this pain into my life and I'm the one that has to "get over it and move on"....I told the marriage counselor off when she told me that I needed to move on...I am moving on, but how do you reconcile immense pain and the deep sense of betrayal and add the added sting of an illegitimate child with it?

I'm healing and moving on and we do have our good days...but I often wonder, deep in the back of my mind if I'm just biding my time until I can get back on my feet after college and a job and then I might just move on myself?

If I'm entertaining those thoughts, then I'm wasting my H's time as well as mine.....

We are doing well, although we have counseling more now as a result of my being slapped by H during the last Brouhaha.....

It's hard. I know it's worth it at times...but I hope and pray that there's still something there after all the dust settles....

Just musing...feeling old today.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Hugs,
Twiisty
Hi Matthew
You sound like you are doing well. I think it is good that you can acknowledge and confront your true feelings and by doing that, they can be dealt with honestly before God.

You know? We don't have to go before God in prayer all perfect and neatly wrapped up really tight. He knows our hearts anyway? He knows what we are carrying around in that stinky little bag! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

He is a just God, He will do right by you. I say open the bag in front of Him and let Him deal with the circumstances. I know it's hard tho because it's like we are crucified right along with Christ. Kind of like if these circumstances didn't arise, would we have known we were capable of such negativity? Regardless of the reason. God is bigger than whatever the details are...

So now, to answer your questions, OW pain is not BS pain. I think for sure BS pain goes much, much deeper because of being ONE FLESH with someone who decided to add another flesh to the pot. It IS disgusting. What I did was disgusting. But I turned a corner. I changed. My changes didn't stop the consequences that were already in motion because of poor choices, but nevertheless there was a change of heart.

The xow in your case can change and your prayers may be the catalyst. I heard a really interesting prayer the other day... You could pray that xow would be convicted (by the Holy Spirit), that He would follow her around everywhere she goes day and night and give her no peace and not let her off the hook until she is so convicted that she MUST change and repent! Hmmm...

Well, as long as we keep mounting up to the Son as eagles, we can keep renewing our strength (& youth) like the eagles. Did you know that eagles are the only birds who can fly directly into the sun because they have two sets of eyelids, one that protects their eyes from the sun... INTERESTING, huh???

Hang in there. Your two years of recovery are hard-earned and you deserve 1000 pats on the back!
Question for Matthew: Just wondering...
Is your xow married?
Twiisty,

'You need to move on', sounds pretty harsh. Sort of a slap in the face huh?
"I am moving on, but how do you reconcile immense pain and the deep sense of betrayal and add the added sting of an illegitimate child with it?"

Well, in times like these, it's funny, but I tend to grasp whatever pearls of wisdom I can find to continue the healing process. Well, a local radio station d.j. signs off his daily slot with the phrase,
'It's never between you and anyone else, it's always between you/them and God'.

I hope that helps. Just like binthere suggests, and I concurr, dealing with the muckity muck from their f**-up stinks, but there's absolutely nothing they can do to heal the pain.
There's one thing that you left out of the stuck holding the bag scenario though....they don't get off the hook so easily.
I don't know about you, but if there's one thing I can't deal with more than pain inflicted by others is pain that I inflict on others. Guilt (for me) is the ultimate destroyer. It can eat you up if you don't deal with it.
Think about it, when someone hurts you, there's some sort of sick 'power' in being a victim. You get to judge (even if only in your head) the person for their actions. You get to size yourself up against them....in my own way, I've done that. And if you're not careful you get to hold yourself up in the light as a shining example of martyrdom all for the sake of, uh oh...vanity. Yuck. I've done it all.

But when you've committed the offense, you have to fight every day to remind yourself that at your core you're not the person that did those things. You have to kick yourself for doing what you did. You have to protect yourself from people that even remotely act like they can accuse you of anything. You waffle back and forth between feeling like a failure and feeling like your life is over because of a mistake.

Twisty, all I'm saying here is....all I ever have to do is forgive them. They have the much harder, less visible task of forgiving themselves. Think about it, who really wants to walk around with that on their conscious?

Binthere,
thanks for the healing balm sista. Your words pierced right through me and sunk in. Thanks for reminding me to keep it real with him, especially because he knows the truth...knew it even before I was conceived.
"Well, as long as we keep mounting up to the Son as eagles, we can keep renewing our strength (& youth) like the eagles. Did you know that eagles are the only birds who can fly directly into the sun because they have two sets of eyelids, one that protects their eyes from the sun... INTERESTING, huh???"

I'll say....isn't it something to worship a God that grants grace and mercy. We can keep approaching his Holy throne for strength and renewal even though at our best, we deserve to be consumed by his power. And to think...we can approach him because of the intecessor....the
'extra covering' that will make us righteous before the presence....

As far as the Holy Spirit convicting her....well, on my good days, I pray for her healing, whatever way it comes. Maybe this is the process we're going through right now...the healing. Maybe that's the reason for all the antics, because she can't have peace with this until she deals with her own guilty conscious. Maybe this is the change process for her. She so desparately wants to know everything that goes on when lil mama is in our home and we've done everything but tape the entire visit and give her a copy for play by play review. Hmmmm her fear of the unknown is not fueled by actual events (she has no reason to think we'd hurt lil mama) her fear is based on her own guilt and sense that something would happen to her in our care because of her responsibility for what happened....who knows.
I'm tired and hungry and ready for my lunch break.
Binthere, again, thanks for the wise words and the encouragement. I hope she can grow up to be just like you!
Hi Matthew,

I will answer your questions as they relate to me.

The biggest way that I suffer post the EMA is trust issues in my current relationship. It's not a deal breaker for us, but it's a tough one to deal with.

I gave birth to a child from a triangulated situation. I didn't know the guy was involoved. He has NC, but I send him pictures on occasion.

It is my opinion, that my "suffering" with the situation is in NO WAY comparable to the suffering of the BS. I went into my EMA situation with my eyes open. I found out a lot of disturbing information about my (now x) MM WAY after the fact, but his W SERIOUSLY got the sh-t end of the stick.

In the situation with my child, I decided to have the baby LONG before I found out that he was involved. I accepted that he was with another person and went on with my life. IT's 4 years later and they STILL struggle with it.

I can't even pretend that my "suffering" is anything close to the BS's. In the situation with my son, the BS had a nervous breakdown AND sued me for emotional distress (amoung other things). THat case dragged on for 3 LONG years, it was thrown out of court and she was left with a fat legal bill. I changed jobs, was embarassed about the suit and that was it.

In the situaiton with my 10 year EMA, the greatest suffering that I have is finding a way to trust my current partner.

My hat is off to the BS's. I don't know what i'd do in such a situation.

To answer Robbed's question - why do OP have anger toward the BS. I honestly don't know. I feel like I should feel sorry for her, but I think her a fool. A fool for putting up with his mess, a fool for staying, a fool for believing. A fool for playing the victim in all of this. Maybe I over identify with her to some degree.

I too believed for too long, the difference being that I had the gift of space to pull my heard above the murky waters of this insane EMA.
BinTheredunThat and Matthew:

ya know...I read your postings and pondered. I am a saved woman, bought by the blood of the lamb, baptized in the Holy Spirit and right now my faith isn't even as much as a mustard seed. Right now, I can't see God in this situation. Right now, I don't know what God is teaching me, what He wants me to do, how He wants this situation to turn out, why He let Satan into our marriage and what His ways are going to be.

Right now, I am a bit angry at God - I didn't deserve this and I keep wondering how I can be a witness to my unsaved H if I can't even get over this.

Forgiveness.....I was listening to Creflo Dollar (he's a wonderful pastor) the other day on a tape I had and the message was forgiveness and how we are commanded to do it because God does it for us. Well, I have to tell you I felt so inadequate because I'm not there yet. I have made the choice to forgive my H but am I complete with the process yet?...NO is the truth. Am I in any way able to yet forgive the OW - because I believe that ultimately I should do that too. Yes, I believe she is to blame as well but in order for me to have peace at some point - I must get my hatred and despise out of my system for her too.

She is also one of God's children (I don't mean that she is saved but I mean that Jesus died on the cross for her too) and ya know....if she asks for forgiveness God will give it to her too. I am not exclusive in my relationship with God - he loves us all. And that almost makes me angry - that God would not pick my side and choose me because I didn't cheat...ya know? I'm rambling but that's my thoughts right now....

I take my bag of crap before God, not daily, but often. I feel like He already knows my pain, He already knows what betrayal feels like and He knows that if anyone is forgive that He is gonna have to help me.

My counselor asked me yesterday how I felt about being a Christian and not having contact with oc (again, if it turns out to be his). I really don't know how I feel about that. I feel crappy because God doesn't turn his back on us - but ya know....in my life, God is my father.

I was listening to TD Jakes and he was talking about the importance of fathers and daughters that we often look for the man we marry to be like our father - and also we understand God's love and all better when we had a good father. Well, I didn't have a good father - mine sexually abused me so I have a hard time understanding God as 'daddy' that will take me in his arms and love me and protect me and will help me through anything. Those are my own insecurities but this situation doesn't help. So, if we don't have contact then I suppose I'm giving this child up to God to be it's father too....Is that wrong? I don't know.

I know that my H doesn't want contact - didn't want the oc - really just wanted a piece of @$$ and then got caught. Well, that is his burden to deal with and I do feel like at some point he will have to answer to God for that. But what is my role in that? Should I insist when I know that I really don't want the oc. I don't want the pain and misery. I can't help his guilt and/or her guilt, (if there is any).

Lately I've been thinking that God isn't big enough to deal with this - I guess I think that because He didn't step in and stop it. He didn't make her miscarry - He didn't hit my h with a 2x4 before he had sex with her to make him stop - He didn't send angels to turn his car around before all this happened. Yes, I know that He gives us each our own free will and that will never change. And yes, I know that Satan is powerful and that apple looks pretty darned good on the tree but it is filled with poison.

I really don't know what I'm saying or feeling lately. My H really wants us to focus on our recovery, our healing and I agree. I spend time in prayer and I pray for him and for us.

I read that one of you Christian ladies (Matthew?) has contact with oc....how old is it and did you insist or did your H? Do you ever wonder how it would be with no contact? And for the BinThere....do you have contact? I ask because I'm hung up on this. I'm a Christian and 'supposed' to love my neighbor, supposed to forgive (have started and am working through that) but I don't have those feelings and wonder if there's something wrong with my spirit....

Just would like your thoughts?

Angelia
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lately I've been thinking that God isn't big enough to deal with this - I guess I think that because He didn't step in and stop it. He didn't make her miscarry - He didn't hit my h with a 2x4 before he had sex with her to make him stop - He didn't send angels to turn his car around before all this happened. Yes, I know that He gives us each our own free will and that will never change. And yes, I know that Satan is powerful and that apple looks pretty darned good on the tree but it is filled with poison.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Angelia, The Lord gives all of us free will.

That being said, you are the antidote to that poisen!

As BTDT said, of being "one flesh" and another shares that and ultimately gives birth to a C, is the alpha and omega of pain.

God has a plan for all of us...whether we stay or leave, it's a plan.

If my H wanted ow he would have been there,no doubt.

If she were his alpha and omega, he would have left in a New York Minute!

She wasn't.

He begged me, Angelia. Your H, it seems has been ready to re-commit for a while.

Mine was...but we had a priest intervening...whom I trusted...even though I still trusted God.

Guess what? God won. It took a year, but HE won. With that, I also got to salvage my marriage.

Truth be told, both H and I admitted to being miserable w/o each other.

He was not miserable w/o ow. Or he'd have left "us". He had plenty of time away from me after d-day.

I had plenty of time away from H.

I was ready to do myself a favor and get the heck out! Couldn't take it a minute longer.

All I can say is God wins in all situations. If we are meant to be apart, it will happen, if H is to be in C's life, so be it....I know with my faith I can deal with it.
No longer afraid.

Another blow that I have been reluctant to tell you.

You know how H and I are YANKEE'S fans?

Do you all remember Lou Gehrig?

His disease?

My beautiful, helpful, prayerful, forgiving, Mom has it.

Cleveland clinic diagnosed it in Sept.

Her speech is like that of a hopeless drunk and it embarrasses her.

Her arms are losing strength.

Cruel thing is this disease allows your mind to remain strong.

My Mom said she was proud how I handeled our situation. She said she has a spot in her heart for H as she knows he's suffering. Said to keep up doing the right thing.

She made me cry so hard at that it took a few minutes to answer her.

I said "thankyou"... that's all. "Thankyou"

So whatever else God has in HIS infinate plan for me to endure...I'm ready... I thank HIM always for my life. My gifts.

And for all of my friends here on MB...old and new.
love
Debi
Gem: Not sure what this means...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That being said, you are the antidote to that poisen! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me, an anticdote? Not sure I follow that one and you know by now that I'll ask if I don't understand so, please explain.

There's a part of me that knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that my GOD is faithful. The that MY GOD (boy, I feel like I'm in church) is my healer, my lawyer, my doctor, my friend, my everything! I also know that MY GOD, can do EVERYTHING bcause he is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I know that MY God sits high and looks low and searches the earth. I know the My God is all knowing and all powerful and even Satan trembles at his name.

I guess my questioning is more of this and maybe I didn't explain it well....Can God make this child not his...YES. Will He do that? No!

I already believe that God will provide for my needs which will be financial. I know that many do not believe in tithing but if it's in the bible then I believe it. I know because it's already happened that if I give my little 10% to God that He will provide for every need according to his riches. He will provide, pressed down, shaken together and running over.

No mistaken my beliefs. Lord they are strong. What God has done for others He can do for me. God is no respector of persons and He will provide. But, what I want from God and what I pray for is that this child will not be my H's. I pray to God that there will not be a daily reminder of this pain. I pray that God will not allow me to suffer for the mistakes and sins of my H. I pray for peace and I do not know how you have peace when there is guilt, shame and deceit.

I know that is selfish but that is truly what I pray for.

I know what I pray for and I know that God can in fact make miracles happen - I know that He can make this situation bearable for all - He doesn't give us what He knows we can't handle. And, I know His eye is on the sparrow and if he takes care for the sparrow and the lily of the field, then surely He will take care of me...but I'm selfish and I want Him to take care of me by taking away the problem. Plain and simple.

Yes, I am partially afraid of ow and possible oc. I am not afraid of them physically but I am afraid of the emotional pain.

It's not for me to be mad at God but I know that He knows that hurt and that betrayal. For while on the cross,Jesus asked his father....Why has thou forsaken me? So, He knows.

Lately I've been concentrating far too much on ow and possible oc. I've been letting them rule me instead of me working on my marriage. Yes, my H has been committed for a while. I question his commitment to me - like your H he would have been gone if she were what he really wanted. I know that with my head but my heart is another story. I know that it truly would have been easier for him to leave me and be with her than to go through what he faces now. I know that if he can put up with my crying from the hurt, the anger that I display at times, and the trust issues he's having to build that he MUST love me - either that or he's a horrible glutten for punishment. His actions have more than shown that he loves me - his actions have more than shown that he knows she was a mistake.

Anyway, Ms. Gem....I'm babbling and I'm tired....thank you for your responses. You have been truthful in all your e-mails and I appreciate it more than you know.

Love, Angelia
Antidote means "what God has joined together ,let no man put asunder" YOU.

You are the antidote to Satan and your H knows...maybe not in the Christian sense, but he must know.

Angelia WE know of skid-stained underwear. We know of flatuance passed during the night. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
We know of using GAIN detergent to get rid of B.O. stains.
We know of bad breath w/a kiss and crummy sex, just because H wants/needs it that night.

We also know of flowers sent just because...
Kisses given because they are so happy to :(see above descriptions)

Happy in their own skin...knowing they are/have been /loved in spite of being human...

Familiarity....says it all... Don't you think?

A's are all about hiding your real self...smelling great all the time...holding "gas" in till you can't stand it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Looking for an unreality that does not exist.

Lord gave us these men....discard 'em?

Nah!!! Been there too long and am too tired to try again....You too huh?

All in all...is one indescretion worth a lifetime of emptiness?

You decide Angelia. And thanks for the compliment of honesty...I am only telling it from my heart. When at all possible from H's heart from what he's shared.

love
Debi
Gem wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Angelia WE know of skid-stained underwear. We know of flatuance passed during the night.
We know of using GAIN detergent to get rid of B.O. stains.
We know of bad breath w/a kiss and crummy sex, just because H wants/needs it that night.

We also know of flowers sent just because...
Kisses given because they are so happy to :(see above descriptions)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

You been hiding in my closet again????? FREAKY....

I even use GAIN (TM)..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

FREAKY....

But you are so right on target....if my H was so "totally in love" with the OW, why isn't he with her instead of me? I gave him the opportunity to run to her and told her on the phone that she can have him...but even she spat out at me on the phone when I said that, "looks like he made his choice...."

Without going TMI...my H and I were high school sweethearts...I know stuff about this man that he wouldn't DARE want anyone to know...(embarrassing moments that either I participated in or observed! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

I know things about Mr."T" that even his ex-fiance and ex-ow doesn't know....yet I wasn't able to foresee or prevent what he did to me. That breaks my heart more than anyone will ever know....

I'm changed from all this...and not necessarily for the worse...*sigh*

My Husband is a loving and doting father to the children that are of the home. When he's off, he plays with them, teases them and reads to them.
He's not the &$*#&#^%^ that alot of OW's call those MM's who don't participate in the OC's lives. Sadly, our ex-ow only sees a small fraction of the what the total man is.

Hang in there Angelia, it will get better...not to hijack your thread Matthew....

Hugs,
Twiisty
Angelina,

You and I follow totally different spiritual paths and so maybe this won't ring for you. I hope that it does.

Gem said "what God has joined together, let no man put asunder"

My spiritual path teaches "what God has joined together no man can put assunder."

My path would tell you: fell your pain, grieve your loss and feel your sadness to it's fullest. Roll in the floor if you need to and just let it all hang out. And when you're ready, when you're really really done falling apart come back to the marital relationship and begin to rebuild.

It seems to me that some paths seems to be about feeling your pain in this really polite and only semi-expressive way. Don't piss anybody off or stir anything up. Trust your creator and mask your pain (to a certain degree). Be careful not to let anybody put that marriage assunder.

My path tells me that that bond cannot be put assunder.

I hope this helps.
Katie: Thanks for your words. Oh dear, I have let it all hang out, I have cried, am still in the grieving process, I have yelled, screamed, called him all sorts of names, cried some more and then cried some more. I have never in my life cried so much. This is so incredibly painful.

I think that is my issue about trusting my creator. My head and what I know spiritually is not the same as what my heart tells me. I know that God can fix this but he isn't going to let my H off that easy.

I so desperately want God to just take this all away but He's not gonna do that. But why? Please tell me - anyone on this board - that you understand the reasons you suffer at the hands of someone else. Please tell me that you suffer for something better down the line - each and every one of the people here on this board have to deal with an ow and an oc for the REST of the their natural lives. That doesn't go away. So, what lesson is God teaching us? What do we learn that we can take away the lemons and make lemonade? And,could God have taught us those lessons another way?

just a blue day for me - there are many right now. No, I haven't given up my marriage but I am hanging on by thin threads.

A
Hi Angelia,

Let me respond to your questions/comments.....

"Right now, I can't see God in this situation. Right now, I don't know what God is teaching me, what He wants me to do, how He wants this situation to turn out, why He let Satan into our marriage and what His ways are going to be.

Right now, I am a bit angry at God - I didn't deserve this and I keep wondering how I can be a witness to my unsaved H if I can't even get over this."

I saw God in this from the beginning. In our marriage, there was always a struggle because of our differences. We married young and our communication sucked big time. Well long story short, I emotionally removed myself from the marriage. I decided that if all he wanted from me was meals, I'd give him that and focus my life on other things. I gave the enemy the foothold in the situation because as a result of my holding back in my marriage, I became smitten with a young man I was in college with.

I think I began the divorce process from my h in my heart. I decided that to be w/ fantasy man would have been better. Well, through much prayer and reading and studying of God's words (and his grace) I eventually came to my senses and realized how wrong I was and saw the damage I was doing to myself and to my H.

But here's how I really saw God in our situation. When I found out about the oc and the affair I confided in my husband about the feelings I'd carried around for fantasy man. I confided that while I/we never acted on those feelings, they were there and strong for about 2 long, painful years.
I then told him that I understood how his affair could have happened because while I was dealing with longing for another man, God gave me the very vision that at that moment was becoming my reality. While I was pining away for fantasy man, one day I wondered, what would happen if me and fantasy man did get together? I mean, who would it hurt.
And sure enough, the first thing that came to mind was a resulting pregnancy. A child that my H and I have yet to produce in our marriage. Then I saw all of the faces of my loved ones. I imagined the dissappointment my family and his family would experience. I imagined my God children looking up to me and then wondering how I got the title, 'God mom'. Ulitmately, I worried over disappointing God.
I explained ALL of this to him and told him, this is how I can forgive you.....because the very same thing almost happened to me. It was only because I loved GOD, more than I loved myself and him at that point, that the situations were not reversed. His grace and mercy kept me from making the mistake. I didn't want to disappoint him. And God knows, I had some strong prayer warriors on my side.
Well his response to all of this was....
'I know you want to smack me...just do it...'
My response
'No, all I'll ever have to do in this situation is forgive you for what happened. Once I do that, I can be healed. You, you will have to deal with the guilt for a long time to come.'

Short answer to your first comment, your pain and his guilt are not equal. He will always wonder how he could have been so stupid. I will bet that they'll even be times that you love him, and he hates himself. That's God's love, that's how you witness to him.
I still worry about my H's guilt. I know he made the poor choice he did, and I know if we ask, God will forgive us, but the enemy has many crafty ways of accusing and keeping us in an endless cycle of low self-worth and faithlessness and hopelessness.

We have contact with lil mama, she's two. It's very difficult at times because we're still dealing baby mama drama brought on by the fallout of their soured 'relationship'. She wants him to be a part of her life and UNDERSTANDS that I too, am a part of her life, but she does not LIKE it. And she can't hide it. It manifests itself in her catty ways. It manifests itself in the way she would call my house and H cell phone as many times as it took for her to hear lil mama's voice.
Right now, it's manifesting itself through the big old discipline hot button. Another way for her to assert some type of control (or so she thinks) over the situation.
As far as you and your H having contact, you two need to focus on your M. Hire a lawyer if you can find one. He or she will give you the legal edge while the two of you focus on yourselves and your marrige. My H and I both decided we'd give contact a try. We knew going in ther'd be drama, resentment etc. But, we try to focus on this....'All we have to do is love lil' mama more than we dislike baby mama'. I know, I know...it's not quite the Christian way, but I have to let go and let God handle what I can't. For right now, prayer and acknowledging that I dislike her is as honest as I can get.

Find a good Christian counselor and GO. Even if your H does not. Get educated about how the two of you wound up at this point.
Angelia,

Everything you're feeling right now is normal. I went through the same changes. I went from turning my back on my faith (on bad days)to wanting to turn my back on my H (those were the better days). Pretty crummy huh?

I'm curious, how did the two of you get here? Othere than the obvious (an affair) what type of affair was it? Long term, one nighter, emotional first, what caused it?

I can't tell you what God will reveal to you through your pain and suffering, I can tell you what's happened in my life as a result though;
** We've adopted a baby boy. He's close to two now.
** My H and I attend church regularly. He reads his 'One Year Bible' daily and counsels me sometimes on how to deal with things. This is a far cry from the drunken, cursing, spoiled brat I married 13 years ago.
** God is still good. We still have our home in spite of an outragous cs 'award'. We still have our jobs (she's been layed off I think).
** We talk about the bible together. We talk about the people in the bible.
** Together, we discount baby mama antics as juvenielle and wicked.
** He serves on a ministry at church.
** One of his buddies regularly goes to church with us now.
** His brother got saved (when we had our son dedicated, he came from out of town and answered the call).
** And to think, all of this and THE BEST IS STILL YET TO COME.

Angelia, simply put, don't let the enemy's sneak peak into your future derail what God has in store for you. Just let him unfold it. Focus on your healing. Focus on meeting your H needs. Let him focus on meeting your needs.
I'm keeping you in my prayers dear. I know where you've been. Let my (and that of others)testimony strengthen you.
Keep posting here often to get the muckety muck off your chest!!
luv,
MM
Angelina,

I have love believed that suffering can be a gateway if you would have it be.

Sounds to me like you're not done grieving yet. Maybe you'd do well to let yourself have your feelings (even if they're not politically correct) and give yourself some more time to figure out the why's of it all.

I know a little something about suffering although I don't wear it as a badge. So that you understand a bit of my history (previously unknown to this board):

[edited for my own privacy]

Now to meet me on the street (or even in a 12 step meeting) you'd never know all of that.

Maybe you'll heal and get through all of this just to be able to tell people that it's possible. To offer hope to those who go through this and much worse.

6 years ago I had 1 glass of wine and it sparked a major psychotic episode. I landed in a psych hospital in Queens in the middle of the night. I remember laying there looking up at the ceiling thinking WTF! What is to be learned from THIS!

The answer - HOPE

I'm only 32. Sometimes I feel like i've lived in the 12th chamber of hell. And in some ways I have. But today I live a full, happy and prosperous life.

<small>[ January 15, 2003, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</small>
Matthew: Well, thanks so much for your words too!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but the enemy has many crafty ways of accusing and keeping us in an endless cycle of low self-worth and faithlessness and hopelessness.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe that's where I am. Maybe Satan has creeped into my marriage and my heart and I'm letting him do that. Maybe I feel so worthless that I wonder how my H could love me and how he chose me more than ow and oc.

We do have an attorney who is handling all the legal stuff. There's the paternity suit, the issues all surrounding that and there are many - you can certainly read other threads that will tell you that whole sordid mess.

The counselor I am going to is a Christian but I don't think she knows what to do with me. I think I have read more and am pretty atuned to what I am feeling. Truthfully, I"d like to go to my church's pastor for counseling but am frankly way too embarassed.

H has some issues about baby's mama. He is afraid she will be vindictive due to race issues and not having anything to do with child. He is worried about me. God, I laugh about that - a little late now to be worried about your loving wife at home now...huh? My H is not a deadbeat dad - he is a great father - he just didn't want this one. And I don't know how I feel about that. I wonder if some day he'll wake up and decide he wants contact and how will all that go. He says that he doesn't think about oc and has never felt a bond there and doesn't want anything to do with it.

Do you ever wish you didn't have contact? or was that a must in your marriage? Did you push for it or did H? Just wondering. I feel so strange knowing there's this kid out there with no father (if it's his).

As I said in the beginnings of my post - I didn't grow up with such great father figures so I have learned myself to do without that figure and to let God be my figure...but is that fair of me to let this kid be without?

So, working on my marriage is not so easy right now. We're doing all the questionnaires, and talking a lot. But my mind is constantly on this affair and the possible oc. H doesn't want to talk too much about oc because he's already made up his mind about oc. He thinks it's pointless to talk about something that we don't even know the outcome of yet. I just want to talk and talk and talk and talk.

And, Matthew, how do you love a child that signifies everything evil and sinful that your H did? Not flaming just curious.

Please respond. I would love to hear your thoughts.
Matthew:
I laughed...how did we get here?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

We had been married about 6 years....we had been fighting over money, over stupid stuff, over his ex-girlfriend and their child (who was living with us and causing quite a problem) but anyway, he met her, she was going through issues in her house too, she offered and he bit! He says he never intended to leave us just wanted an outlet. They went on a few dates - movies, lunch, and mostly it was just sex. Lasted about 3 months and then she got pg. He had already decided to stop seeing her when she got pg. So, then they move into pg mode and all those issues. He was around a little bit but didn't do fatherly things. Never bought baby anything - didn't go to doc appointments, etc..... Baby is born and she apparently wanted cs from him or threatened to let me know. Anyway, he gives her money but still doesn't go there to be daddy, etc. Somewhere around when baby is 9 months old he decides to stop giving her $. I think it's because he wanted this whole lie to stop because he could have just kept paying her and none of this would have been brought to life. Anyway, 10 months after he stops paying her paternity suit arrives and a month after that I get it in the daily mail. Thanks us postal service! Anway, that's our story. OC is about 21 months old.

He apparently had sex with her a couple of times after baby was born when he was dropping off $.

He has taken complete responsibility and accountability for this. He says he made bad choices - made huge mistakes - never wanted us to break up and went to great lengths to keep the secret from me. He thought I'd bail in a heartbeat because I'd said that.

I always knew something was wrong because for months on end he'd be this great H at home - all was okay and then it was like he'd fall off the wagon so to speak and he'd be off the wagon for a week or so and then back to normal hubby. Those were the times he had seen her.

I believe him beyond a shadow of a doubt that he doesn't want her. See, we have no kids together - only the normal debts that a marriage bring. So, he could have easily bailed to be with her. But, he doesn't want her - and I don't think he really wanted to be with her in the beginning - just a quick piece of @$$. He never slept at her house - never bought her anything -never bought baby anything - would go there, have sex, clean up and leave. UGH!!!!

That's our story.

I pray daily for his salvation - not only for us but because I have spent years with this man and would like to see him in heaven!

Yes, Matthew, the enemy is right in there trying to steal my joy, my peace and my marriage. I know he comes to steal, kill and destroy.

Funny.....I'd like to go to church on Sundays but right now don't trust H that he wouldn't do something stupid while I'm at church! haha!!!!! that's crazy I know but it's there.

Yes, please pray for me - pray for us.

Angelia
Angelia,
I'll start from the bottom of your post and work up.

I'm able to love her because she's an individual. I can separate what her parents did from who she is and who God will call her to be.
Think about it, do we really know how we got here? I mean, how much of our parent's dirt are we aware of? My mom and dad weren't married when I was conceived. He was married (I think he was divorced) but they didn't marry until I was seven, so who know what drama went on there. So for all practical purposes, I could have been conceived in much the same way as lil mama. The point being, it has absolutely nothing to do with God's purpose in my life. And as parents, that's what we're supposed to be about, loving and protecting and being a steward and an example over the children he places in our lives, not just our own, but all children.
The stuff (mess) that got her here if for her parents to deal with. Not me (at least not directly), and not her.

You wanting to talk and H wanting to move on...that's classic. Not sure what to tell you there. My H new we would have to talk about it because he didn't want to walk away. He's still working on bonding with his D, but it's difficult. So, we talk.
Matthew: Don't leave me hanging! You only answered the one question....ha!!!!

Was your husband saved and attending church at the time all this happened for you?

did he give his life to God because of your actions and your love of him and oc? Just wondering....

I feel like I need to be a witness to him but just don't have it in me. Or maybe I do have it in me and the devil is stealing it....

Anyway, I'm anxiously waiting your reply!

Love, A
Sorry A,

My H was saved at the time, but had backslidden. One of his old 'friends' from the neighborhood moved to town and brought with them the old ways he had just about given up. You know...drinking, smoking probably more than cigarrettes, hanging out every weekend at the club or at other peoples homes. I had given that lifesyle up for school and also because I was ready to answer the spiritual call in my life.

He straddled for too long and gambled one last time. I think in his heart he wanted to be saved and change his family's history for the better, but the stronghold was still there. He wanted the comfortability and acceptance that comes from the familiar more than he wanted God's love and peace.

It took him getting involved with a Hellcat to know just what he almost gave up. Not just in me, but in God. Had he maintained the relationship w/ xow, who knows where he'd have wound up? This comes from HIS mouth, not mines.

He says it was me and my actions that convinced him that God's love is real, but I like to think it was effective and fervant prayers of the righteous that produced the results. I had an awesome prayer partner that lived right around the corner from me and every morning, we'd walk and pray. She's an ordained minisiter, and all this time she lived right down the block from me and we've become the best of friends. So hang on, God is sending you your back up girl!! We do have to encourage and help each other through the tough times.

As you will see from previous posts, it was those prayers and Christian friends that helped me through this. When I wanted to cry, scream and vent, they lent an ear because they understood that my H did not need to hear those things coming from me at the time (at least not that way). He needed my love, my calmness, my ability to provide peace in the middle of the valley.

I'd like to take credit, but I can't. Yes, you do need to be a witness, but lean on those that you can trust..those that are wise...and those that want to see the two of you make it. Like I said before, come here and vent often. Some people will take offense to what you may say, but they'll have to get over it. If you have venom, spew it here...apologize later. Show your H the calm, Christ-centered woman that you are. I'm not saying putting on a happy face and shut up, but keep the histrionics to a minimum if you can.
Just something someone sent me this morning:One evening, an old Cherokee told her grandson about a battle that was going on inside herself. She said, "My son, the battle
is between two wolves.
One wolf is evil: Anger, Envy, Sorrow, Regret, Greed, Arrogance, Self Pity, Guilt, Resentment, Inferiority, Lies, False Pride, Superiority, and Ego.
The other wolf is good: Joy, Peace, Love, Hope, Serenity, Humility, Kindness, Equality, Empathy, Generosity, Truth, Compassion
and Faith..."

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandmother, "Which wolf will win?"

The old Cherokee replied simply, "The one I feed."

Something to chew on today.
Angelia,
If you want, I'll email you and we can chat more. Give me your add. and we can chat a while today.
It's Let me know when you get this and I"ll delete it. Thanks!!!!

<small>[ January 15, 2003, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: angelia ]</small>
received....i'm heading out to lunch and when I get back I've GOT to get some work done.
I'll email you later today.

peace,
MM
Matthew I love the good wolf/bad wolf story....I have BOTH attributes.....must work a lot longer...eh?

I have enjoyed reading your story, again. You tell it so well.

Hope you can help angelia sort out some issues. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Twiisty, you are too funny! Yes, actually I do live in your closet <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> !

Gain is the best odor remover isn't it?

I was just telling angelia that the A was like always being "on", not relaxed, just the keeping it a secret is maddening..... After discovery and a little time, H is so happy to have a "normal" (whatever THAT is) life.

It takes tons of talking, arguing, and love to put it in the past.
But Twiisty, we're old scholars at that, aren't we? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Katie Scarlett, your points were interesting to read too. Thanks for sharing.

Matthew thanks for the post.....

love
Debi
Debi: My issues....Girl, I have LOTS of them!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Anyway, Yes, you hit it on the head....he is so relieved, so relaxed, so happy and I wonder...who is this guy that has invaded my H's body? but I guess he's free of all the burden of the secrecy, lies, cover-ups and whatever else.

I do not understand still that compartmentalization thing - I talked about it with the counselor and she says that's probably why he stopped paying her....he was having a hard time keeping it compartmentalized for so long and was just breaking him.

Debi and Twiisty....ya'll actually scare me sometimes - ya'll have been dealing with this stuff for two + years and it's still there. although you have survived and moved on (if there is such a thing) you still deal with it. No swiffering (Swiffer is a registered trademark of ????) that thing away! ya know! I hope that came out right but I think ya know what I mean. ..There's always triggers, there's always the ow and oc and there's always cs.

I just have some spiritual issues right now - I feel abandoned, lonely, betrayed and hurt.

I don't remember asking God for patience and yet i'm learning it...I'm learning the tick tock of the heavenly time clock that will fast forward me from today to a few years from now. But, God doesn't just do that...he's gonna make me work through this and my point to Him exactly is WHY me? Why am i working through something I didn't create...

The devil is telling me....Run for the hills, girlfriend!!!! it's easier over here - not as much pain, no betrayal, etc....I don't want to go there or I wouldn't be posting...It would be easy to just let my life slip into the enemies hands but I don't want that.....

How long exactly does this grieving stuff last....UGh -

Talk to ya'll soon!!!

Angelia
[QUOTE]Originally posted by angelia:
[QB]BinTheredunThat and Matthew:

ya know...I read your postings and pondered. I am a saved woman, bought by the blood of the lamb, baptized in the Holy Spirit and right now my faith isn't even as much as a mustard seed. Right now, I can't see God in this situation. Right now, I don't know what God is teaching me, what He wants me to do, how He wants this situation to turn out, why He let Satan into our marriage and what His ways are going to be.

Right now, I am a bit angry at God - I didn't deserve this and I keep wondering how I can be a witness to my unsaved H if I can't even get over this.

Forgiveness.....I was listening to Creflo Dollar (he's a wonderful pastor) the other day on a tape I had and the message was forgiveness and how we are commanded to do it because God does it for us. Well, I have to tell you I felt so inadequate because I'm not there yet. I have made the choice to forgive my H but am I complete with the process yet?...NO is the truth. Am I in any way able to yet forgive the OW - because I believe that ultimately I should do that too. Yes, I believe she is to blame as well but in order for me to have peace at some point - I must get my hatred and despise out of my system for her too.

She is also one of God's children (I don't mean that she is saved but I mean that Jesus died on the cross for her too) and ya know....if she asks for forgiveness God will give it to her too. I am not exclusive in my relationship with God - he loves us all. And that almost makes me angry - that God would not pick my side and choose me because I didn't cheat...ya know? I'm rambling but that's my thoughts right now....

I take my bag of crap before God, not daily, but often. I feel like He already knows my pain, He already knows what betrayal feels like and He knows that if anyone is forgive that He is gonna have to help me.

My counselor asked me yesterday how I felt about being a Christian and not having contact with oc (again, if it turns out to be his). I really don't know how I feel about that. I feel crappy because God doesn't turn his back on us - but ya know....in my life, God is my father.

I was listening to TD Jakes and he was talking about the importance of fathers and daughters that we often look for the man we marry to be like our father - and also we understand God's love and all better when we had a good father. Well, I didn't have a good father - mine sexually abused me so I have a hard time understanding God as 'daddy' that will take me in his arms and love me and protect me and will help me through anything. Those are my own insecurities but this situation doesn't help. So, if we don't have contact then I suppose I'm giving this child up to God to be it's father too....Is that wrong? I don't know.

I know that my H doesn't want contact - didn't want the oc - really just wanted a piece of @$$ and then got caught. Well, that is his burden to deal with and I do feel like at some point he will have to answer to God for that. But what is my role in that? Should I insist when I know that I really don't want the oc. I don't want the pain and misery. I can't help his guilt and/or her guilt, (if there is any).

Lately I've been thinking that God isn't big enough to deal with this - I guess I think that because He didn't step in and stop it. He didn't make her miscarry - He didn't hit my h with a 2x4 before he had sex with her to make him stop - He didn't send angels to turn his car around before all this happened. Yes, I know that He gives us each our own free will and that will never change. And yes, I know that Satan is powerful and that apple looks pretty darned good on the tree but it is filled with poison.

I really don't know what I'm saying or feeling lately. My H really wants us to focus on our recovery, our healing and I agree. I spend time in prayer and I pray for him and for us.

I read that one of you Christian ladies (Matthew?) has contact with oc....how old is it and did you insist or did your H? Do you ever wonder how it would be with no contact? And for the BinThere....do you have contact? I ask because I'm hung up on this. I'm a Christian and 'supposed' to love my neighbor, supposed to forgive (have started and am working through that) but I don't have those feelings and wonder if there's something wrong with my spirit....

Just would like your thoughts?

Angelia,

I am having a hard time with this also. My h does not want to have contact with oc child. He has to pay cs and it is killing us financial. It has been about a month since I found out about this situation.

I am a Christian, and feel so bad because I have so much anger and hatred at this time. I also wonder where is God. Why did this have to happen? Why did she get rid of the child? Why didn't God stop him before he did this? My life is so different now.

I try not to think of the ow/oc but it is there. I will have to deal with this for the rest of my life, all from a one night stand.

I do believe that the ow knew what she was doing. She did not even tell him until she was 5 months. I know that she wanted to break the marriage up. I am still within, but I don't know what I am going to do.

I just keep praying and asking God to help me, before I lose my mind.

Hope to hear from you. Keep trusting in God.
angelia,
I am only 2 years into this. I think when our home is sold and we are away from the immediate situation things will get better....trigger wise.

From my heart I will tell you I am lightyears away from the faith some women here have shown.

I could not/would not be married if we had any dealings w/oc.
Oc almost destroyed me and my son....after and before birth.

Ow caused so many ill feelings that I would not be able to handle oc.

That being said...if H wanted oc he also has free will...he can see oc...I just can't now. Too many things have happened and I'm all too human to let it interfere w/my original life. If ow thinks it's because of me, so be it. Actually H said his desire to be part of oc's life would never work, even if I were no longer in picture. H said he was clouded when thinking it could be and he had already placed too much hardship on me.

I have to tell you...I would not for one minute have oc here now. It would be like ow would forever be a part of this marriage...by the very reason of oc...even if ow weren't around....oc is proof of H's infidelity...so for me I could never do it.

As far as obsessive thoughts on aborted oc.....I have said before, I'd have an abortion rather than deal with all the pain an oc produces...I think!

I feel, although I love and trust Jesus...A human is not such until a living breathing out-of-the-womb-living person.

God says he knew us before we were born....well HE must have known we'd BE born...right?

Just my opinion.

IDMHVM, get on w/dealing of betrayal...counsel for that...forget a c that isn't here....just work on marriage.....if you can. You had NOTHING to do w/ow choices. Your H was so confused. Most men/women here didn't want oc. If oc were to be born, then God has a plan for oc life that may not include you. He HAS a plan for you and H and it is happening now.

angelia, Satan may not be telling you to run for the hills. It may be you and your inner heart. If you love your H, then stick around for a while. You can only lose a few years...you already lost a few due to secrecy...a few more may well be in your best interest.

As far as Twiisty and I go, I can speak for only me... although I love my H I will never feel the same about him... although we go on vacations and have fun I will feel the "shadow"...I don't know if it will ever leave... I will be somewhat satisfied as opposed to being in the old world of totally satisfied forever.

I can't change the past but live with the aftermath of which many were eternally changed.

Our S, DIL, MIL, FIL, My Mom and Dad, sisters,brothers, OW her H, her c's, oc, her siblings and so on....We will never be the same. You just deal and go on...or not....Another thing is that S and W are deathly afraid of our Granddaughter ever finding out or meeting oc...we are all planning to move a distance away. They are a year apart.

love you angelia and pray for the best. Trust in God is the best way.. He will pick you up and carry you through it all.

love
Debi
hi lady's,,,, sorry to stick my nose in here. i have been following along hit and miss on this thread and just wanted to say that i have to agree with gem when she said although she loves her h it will never be the same again. this is exactly the way i feel for my w. i love her and would never want to hurt her but i will never allow my heart to become vulnerable to her again. at least that is how i feel right now almost 2 full years since she fell off the world. and just to set the record straight fh is very remorseful for her actions and longs for that "look in my eye" as she puts it that i once had for her.

when people say that it will take 2 years i believe that is just the time period to move yourself past the major hurt of a spouses a. when fh's a came out a very good friend of mine confided in me that his wife had had an a 10 years prior to fh's a. he told me that he had just forgiven her about 6 - 9 months prior to our conversation and although he loved his w there were still triggers and he will always have that shadow following him around.

once again sorry for jumping into your thread, pops
HI all,
I just wanted to say that God didn't author all this pain and suffering and He can't prevent our spouses (or us) from making horrible choices to sin. I think we don't realize how our actions affect the lives of others, even the seemingly insignificant ones.

Personally, if I knew someone would think (BS) that I "ruined" their life, I might have pondered my actions. Back then, I was in reaction mode--act selfish now, react to the consequences later. Not good, I know. And I was backslidden also. I'm not proud of that, just the way it was.

Nobody in our situation pushed for contact but I did file for CS 5 years down the road. I prayed, prayed, prayed that CS would not be a burden on that family. And all I heard after that was about MM getting promotion after promotion after promotion until he made VP! Amazing--God is...

MM wasn't/isn't saved but I still believe for laborers to be in his path. angelia, you said you resent having to navigate your way through circumstances you didn't create, try not to resist. Be open to the ways God is leading you through. He is calling you to higher ground. I mean like above the storm clouds where the skies are clear. And yes, it is a one-step-at-a-time journey. His grace is sufficient. You believe it, now's the time to receive it.

The quickest way to the top, is down... on our knees. He will get you through this mess. If He could get me through it, after my unfaithfulness to Him, I know He will show Himself strong on your behalf.

I'll be back soon!
How can you be a witness when you are in the heat of a battle yourself? Well, I think you are doing well by not denying your feelings. I think it is good when WS shows remorse and goes the extra mile to make sure WS knows how deeply they hurt the BS and works hard to regain BS' trust. I believe it's good to acknowledge your feelings and be in touch with your emotions but I don't think you should be governed by your feelings. Feelings are fickle. The Proverbs 31 woman (remember her?) she relies on the Holy Spirit for stability. He is our stabilizer. We don't have to get on the crazy emotional rollercoaster that sits before us in everyday life, especially after an affair. We can just say no! and hide ourselves in Him.

Those are my thoughts... That, plus--Have you ordered Surviving An Affair by Dr.Harley yet? If not, you should!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
BTDT made a point that I had forgotten to comment on:

That's the bit about destroying another person's life. In the throws of my EMA it never occured to me that I was "destroying" the life of another person.

THe first time I ever even heard of such a thing was here. At first reading I thought "what drama queens." I don't see people who feel that way as drama queens anymore, but I can honestly say that I don't full understand the thinking. It just seems to me that you'd have to be giving away a lot of power to have someone "destroy" your life.

I hope that doesn't sound judgemental. It's not meant to be.
BTDT: On my knees....I have been there often and I just don't hear God. My head tells me all the stuff you said is so true BUT and it's a BIG BUT, my heart is breaking. I don't feel the same about my H. As pops said...that look isn't there anymore. As Gem says....it will NEVER be the same. Can it be better? I don't know if it will be. And I say that because years down the road for all these wonderful people here on this board they still deal with it.

I do love my H - but even that is different now. That naive, you're so wonderful, love is GONE - whoosh, out the door!

The days are getting better and I am totally allowing myself to grieve this.

Gem, I guess you're right....a few more years won't kill me to stick around and see how it goes. And yes, my inner heart is telling me to run - I personally think it would be easier. I know that all people come with some kind of baggage but I think Pops mentioned it in a previous thread that in those situations at least the 'baggage', 'kids', or whatever is usually on the table ahead of time. This 'baggage' has been forced on the BS by a WS.

I will be honest and just say I DON"T KNOW how this is gonna turn out. I feel like I am in a complete daze. I function, I am not depressed, I have not turned to alcohol or drugs and I have not and am not going to have any affair of my own. Right now I don't feel so loving, I don't feel like forgiving and I don't feel like giving him a chance. Right now I don't care about ow and oc. Right now I wish they'd all fall off the earth (ouch, that sounded horrible).

Anyway, I am waiting on God to help me. like I said - I just don't feel him. I don't feel any of the peace he's promised, I don't feel any of the burden removing, yoke destroying power of God right now. (Can't remember where that verse is)

Matthew and BTDT seem to me to be far ahead of me in this Christianity and this A thing. I am just bitter and angry. I don't want to be that in two or more years - with or without him. I want to feel complete and whole again. I want to feel love in my life like used to be there. I want to not have the weight of this on my shoulders.

BTDT, you said .....
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> angelia, you said you resent having to navigate your way through circumstances you didn't create, try not to resist. Be open to the ways God is leading you through. He is calling you to higher ground. I mean like above the storm clouds where the skies are clear. And yes, it is a one-step-at-a-time journey. His grace is sufficient. You believe it, now's the time to receive it.

The quickest way to the top, is down... on our knees. He will get you through this mess. If He could get me through it, after my unfaithfulness to Him, I know He will show Himself strong on your behalf.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really don't have a choice. The holy spirit is TUGGING at my heart or my head. I find myself searching more for God than I do dealing with this crap. I am searching Him for answers - what is it HE wants me to do....See, I am so torn about the ability to get a divorce because God says I can...And I have to wonder (as many of those who e-mail me have heard me ask)...maybe God is saying, Angelia, it's okay - leave the bum!

Yes, I know God has better things planned for me - I just wish he'd hurry up and reveal them and take this pain away for me.

Thanks for listening

Angelia
Pops it's ok you put in your 2 cents <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> My H also longs for "that look" and has verbalized how he knows I will never be the same and how it bothers him. I wish for that feeling to return but as of yet it hasn't.

angelia I'm glad we understand each other. You aren't doing or thinking anything different than the rest of us have in the past.

Katie Scarlett and BTDT,
What I meant by destroying my and our S's life was mentally .
Our S is an only c.
With all of his depression that winter along with mine, I was afraid of him falling off the edge again. That would have destroyed me.

When ow had a boy, we (S and I) cried together and held each other. His fear (to this day it comes out when H and S have a disagreement "maybe you should go see your other son, maybe he'll do it right" H just remains quiet after that.), was H was going to have a replacement S, one who might do bigger or greater things than S has to this point. He felt a failure for his depression...felt stupid because at his age, all his buddies went out and had a few beers...he couldn't....alas he was 21 now and couldn't have a beer. He had to take pills and blamed his Dad for his breakdown, sadness, changing a life he thought was safe, embarrassment of what Dad had done and in our small circle everyone knew, all of S's friends.

We were the place all of his misplaced friends came to. S's friends envied S and the great Mom and Dad he had. We were happy, or so I thought.

That's what I meant by "destroy".

No longer that way around here. S's friends still come around, S is happy we've made it through the storm.
Our DIL and granddaughter are more than I had hoped for.

Their wedding was the most fun we'd had in years.

I remember thinking H had taken away the future and sharing milestones with our S together on D-day. It was something I said to him..."how nice when our S gets married we'll be like the Jerry Springer show, divorced and standing in receiving line apart, and you did this!" And S wasn't planning wedding yet!

That was then and this is now.

Just wanted to explain as the word "destroy" was the one that came to mind 2 years ago.
I think now it's "altered"..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

love
Debi

It was a mess around here. Nothing was safe, everything was "destroyed", if you will.
Gem-

I guess it's just a loaded topic for me in general. You see my mom was a BS and was honestly destroyed by my father's infidelity. Has was a wreck and made a very dramatic suicide attempt. He married TOW anyway and went to live with her and OC (my little sister).

I was a little kid and didn't fully "get" what it was all about back them. As I got older I just felt mad at my mother for pining after my father the way she did. I resented her "i'm the victim" stance and was mad that she didn't just get on with her life.

It's 32 years later and she still hates TOW. TOW was my father's second wife. He's now had 5. She likes or at least feels sorry for the other xW's, but she HATES wife #2.

So when I came here and I read "my life is/was destroyed..." I thought "how weak."

These days I think that some people just have a different/more idealzed view of marriage than I do. I never think that forever (as it relates to marriage) means "forever." If it works out to be til death do us part-cool. But if not, sadly, not.

If you truely in your heart believe in forever I could see how an EMA would be pretty devastating.
Katie:

I can totally understand why you would view us as 'weak' women but we are not.

This is a second marriage for me but I can tell you even at that I thought this one would be forever because I love him. My first husband and I did not love each other.

This marriage and this man I believed was my soul-mate. I believed he and I would have a future. I believed our marriage bed would always be sacred. I believed I could be his 'ho' behind closed doors as well as his 'lady' in public. I believed our good and bad times would be just those normal things in marriage.

I didn't know he fit the classic conflict avoider affair type. I didn't know that he would be so easily tempted when the least little thing went wrong. I didn't know that he was the weak one.

Katie, part of the reason I post here is to help me. Yes, I view myself as a victim sometimes because I am. You can do all the self-help stuff you want to see what you contributed to the demise of the marriage but in the end...I chose to be faithful and he didn't. I post here to relieve my anger, to relieve my pain, to learn from others and maybe somewhere down the road years from now, I'll be able to help someone else.

Katie, I had a pretty messed up childhood - bio father didn't want me (he and mom were married), then adopted father comes along and decides he wants to sexually abuse me and mom decides she believes him and can't live without him. Hmmmmmm. I too have no tolerance for women who stay in bad situations and now I find myself in a bad situation. If I was giving advice to someone else in this situation I'd tell them honestly to forgive (get it all out, grieve, etc) and then leave! (But that's a newbie talking - not some of the experienced veterans)

I don't know if I feel like the ow destroyed my life but I certainly feel like my H did. I don't really blame the hoochie...yes, she knew he was married and didn't care but I do blame him. I blame him because HE knew he was married. She didn't have magical fairy dust that she waived over him. He could have said NO but chose not to.

And, I guess all in all I don't feel like he destroyed my life because in the end I'll be okay. I will not die over this. I will not end up in financial ruin over this because I could leave his behind right now (we have NO kids together) and be JUST FINE!!!! But, for now, I'm gonna do like Gem says and give it a little bit of time.

Katie: Are you married or have you ever been married? (I'm not asking to start any crap..just wonder) I think that even if he and I weren't married that I would still feel betrayal - I don't think I could say 'cool' it's okay. And, I think that when you stand up before God and give your life to someone you should think that it's forever. I don't think any one really enters into a marital commitment with the thought that it's divorce do us part...ya know?

p.s. what is an ema? Did I miss that one?

Angelia
<strong>Katie: Are you married or have you ever been married? (I'm not asking to start any crap..just wonder) I think that even if he and I weren't married that I would still feel betrayal - I don't think I could say 'cool' it's okay. And, I think that when you stand up before God and give your life to someone you should think that it's forever. I don't think any one really enters into a marital commitment with the thought that it's divorce do us part...ya know?

p.s. what is an ema? Did I miss that one?</strong>

No I am not married and I never have been. I have been engaged 3-4 times. It seems that others think me the marrying type. I just think I may be to cynical for marriage.

I have had several long term relationships, and have cheated in most of them. The longest of which was a 10 year EMA (extra-marital affair). I honestly believed that he was my soul mate. The ended it about 18 months ago.

xMM and I promised to love one another forever. That version of till death do us part I happen to believe in. I still love what he was for me and what I was for him. We are not together and that is as it should be. But the love for him I hold in my heart is alive and well.

ACIM teaches : the holy spirit will only keep 2 people together for the period of time that they will receive the maxium benefit out of physical proximity. Then they appear to seperate.

It also teaches: what God has joined together, no man can put assunder

What that means for me is that - he (xMM) and I have joined on a spiritual level. We no longer enjoy physical proximity (as I refuse to see him) but that love lives on and cannot be taken away.
Katie: What is ACIM? I know in a previous post you eluded to something other than "God" but that it is your spiritual journey...Interested to know what it is.

Anyway, I have read some of your other posts on other boards.

I personally think your cheating in most of your relationships has something to do with childhood experiences or lack of self-esteem (although I'm not sure that fits you because you APPEAR to have lots of self-esteem although it could be well masked) I think you are very aware of what you are doing so what is that which makes you cheat????

Anyhoooo...I don't think anyone is too cynical to be in love and to commit to someone for a lifetime.

Chat with ya soon!!!!

Angelia
ACIM is A Course In Miracles (http://www.acim.org/)

I think you're right about my cheating. More than anything I think it's part of an addictive patern that I fell into long ago.

I am quite sure of myself coupled with bouts of ZERO self esteem. Although the swings between the 2 have all but disappeared in recent years.

I'm not the sort to find myself in an EMR, then look around and go "how did I get here." I've always done it willingly and with my eyes open. It was a means to an end for me. Definately calculated about allll about power for me.

I am in a loving monogomous relationship right now. (i'm always willing to try something new <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

We may be together for a lifetime. Maybe not. WE really really take it a day at a time. If I look back and discover that we were together till death us do part-cool. If not, I honestly hope that I look back on my time with this man as having gained more than I lost. That's how I feel about xMM.
1 thing I forgot

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by angelia:
<strong>
Anyhoooo...I don't think anyone is too cynical to be in love and to commit to someone for a lifetime.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's true, but I think i'm too cynical to have that moon eyed, far off look in your eyes approach about it.

I love my partner very much. ANd when we're done i'll miss him very much. That end could come with death. It could come through some other form of seperation. In the meantime, I hope for the best, plan for the worst and try not to worry about it too much.
Katie,

Something about your post made me feel sad for you.

I feel sad that you have not yet learned to give you heart completely. It sounds as if you've never allowed youself to ejoy what it feels like to trust your heart to another human being.

But I do understand how that thought may not appeal to you and therefore you don't feel like you are missing anything.

I guess it's like someone who's allergic to shellfish. It's not too much of a big deal to someone who doesn't enjoy fish or a vegetarian. I on the other hand ADORE shell fish and would feel a lifelong yearning for shell fish.

Some people are in love with the idea of being in love. I for one am one of those people. I come from a divorced home with a father who was a serial cheater. I have always longed for a faithful loving husband. But was cheated out of that dream. I have also always longed for a relationship without doubts about the future. I have none now.

I sure hope your mate is not a person like me. I'd be devastated to hear my spouse say some of the things you said.

Not flaming, just thinking aloud. Hope you didn't take offense.

Z.
KatieScarlett, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

posted January 16, 2003 02:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gem-

I guess it's just a loaded topic for me in general. You see my mom was a BS and was honestly destroyed by my father's infidelity. Has was a wreck and made a very dramatic suicide attempt. He married TOW anyway and went to live with her and OC (my little sister).

I was a little kid and didn't fully "get" what it was all about back them. As I got older I just felt mad at my mother for pining after my father the way she did. I resented her "i'm the victim" stance and was mad that she didn't just get on with her life.

It's 32 years later and she still hates TOW. TOW was my father's second wife. He's now had 5. She likes or at least feels sorry for the other xW's, but she HATES wife #2.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ow took away her love, her soul mate, the man she believed in. Ow #2 was the end to her life w/a man she loved. After that she "felt sorry" for others because she wasn't involved in any way and knew what they went through.

You read about my Mom and Lou Gehrigs?

She's dying.

She had an A w/insurance man and left my Dad in my senior year <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> didn't marry om but made us a part of his life....MM died in 86 w/o his D's never seeing him again...they were old enough to know....Never forgot....hurt or destroyed beyond belief.

My Dad is with her now ,as are my sisters, in her darkest hours...that is why she has a soft spot for H......

I feel so awful for you.
Yet your Mom WAS a victim!She trusted, look where it got her....
See what we mean when we say WS and MM or WS and MW have no concept in what havoc they play on existing C's and their future? You existed!

Why do you think you haven't commited to a relationship yet? A matter of trust and believing the man will take you and love you above all others.
Has XMM? No.

Why do you think no matter w/H or another, I won't trust again? I believed and will not do that for anyone again...too school-girl-ish...

I only trust God. HE will take me through this all.

I wish to God though I never knew what I know now.
I wish for that naive girl, who went into hiding never to show her trusting face again...but that girl who has been burned beyond repair is gone w/the past...Do not cry for her for she played her role for 26 years as she should...a new face has appeared and now must play games the rest of her life no matter who she is with...the new girl's name is MissTrust.

MissTrust still will never do the" wild thing" outside of marriage, but toys w/the idea now.

She knows now that fairy tales are just that..a bunch of shi*!


I am sorry for us all....

thanks Katie for your honesty.... I like to hear that...I have grown to the real world and have realized nothing is perfect....nothing....
love
Debi

<small>[ January 16, 2003, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gemini1:
<strong>KatieScarlett, [QUOTE]

You read about my Mom and Lou Gehrigs?

</strong>

THis took me a minute. When I read it I though you meant that your mother was having an A with Lou Gehrig. I was sitting here thinking, isn't he dead! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I'm so sorry to hear about your mom.
<strong>
I feel so awful for you.</strong>
I don't get that. Why?

<strong>
Yet your Mom WAS a victim!She trusted, look where it got her....</strong>

Exactly, so you can see why i'm not big on the whole trust thing.

<strong>
See what we mean when we say WS and MM or WS and MW have no concept in what havoc they play on existing C's and their future? You existed!</strong>
This is my issue with my parents situation. #1 I think that my mother was FAR to idealistic and naive. She really loved him and wanted to get married. She pushed for it (her words not mine). She figured once he made the vow things would be cool. THey made the vow, 3 months in he meets OW and begins an affair. She figured "i'll work out". They have my sister and things are cool for a while. Things get rocky and me leaves. Says he wants a divorce. Says he's with OW, but keeps sleeping with my mother. She secretly goes off the pill and gets pregnant with me. Her theory was that she wanted 2 children and she didn't want more than one father for her children. She never tells him she's pregnant, but he finds out when she's 5 months along. He's FURIOUS and moves out. Moves in with his 19 year old OW. I am born. He tells everybody that i'm not his, while she's saying "lets work it out." OW gets pregnant and my mother offers to let him come home and adopt the baby. My father refuses, divorces my mother, marrys OW.

Now this is the story SHE TOLD ME. He won't give his version.

It just seems like a lot of manipulation to me. She wanted love (completely understandably) and support and to be able to say that she was married." No question that she loved him, but clearly there were other forces at work here too.

MY mother as victim? I have a hard time buying that one. Sure she got done wrong, but she needs to take some ownership in the mess to. To sit around for 30 years like "look what he did to me" is a giant load of BS in my opinion.

<strong>Why do you think you haven't commited to a relationship yet?</strong>

I have. I'm in a loving and committed relationship now.

<strong>I only trust God. HE will take me through this all. </strong>

Amen to that one!!!!!!

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THis is the thing, I loved and trust a man blindly. He was my first love. I was 18. He waited until I was ready to have sex. We had a wonderful, warm relationship for 4 years. We began a physical relationship 3 years in. I thought, how wonderful, a man who is willing ot meet me where i'm at and wait.

I had planned to become his wife and make a life with him. I discovered that he was gay and was having a relationship with a man that was HIV+. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I guess it's fair to say that that's when that naive girl died in me.

The kicker is that (#1-I am HIV- THANK GOD!), but #2-I DO trust. I HAVE given my heart to my current partner.

But in the mean time, I have made my own way. I set out to get the things that I wanted and needed. I have a great career, I have beautiful homes, a wonderful child, etc. I went out and got everything that I thought I was missing. MM filled the lonliness and sex piece for me. I didn't really need him for much of anything else.

And when I was ready to have a REAL relationship, I got one. I have one now.

Will I marry him? Who knows. What we have is beautiful and works for us. (it's very Oprah and Stedman) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm 32. There is still time for me to decide. To my thinking (and I hope this doesn't offend anybody on here) I figured out at 30, what it took some of you guys 30 years to figure out.

I don't have to trust my partner as much as I trust God. It is she who never fails me. Has never cheated, never left me and has carried me through. So i'm free to love and feel safe and happy and fulfilled.

And I do.

Maybe some people here won't get that, but I do.

Be well
ks
Oh, and one last thing about my parents. More than I wanted for them to be married, I needed for them to act responsibly and stop all of the name calling bull.

My step mom (OW#1) and I are still close. What happened between her and my mom is between them. I don't care to take sides.

Them acting maturely would have gone a LONG WAY for ALL of the kids involved!
This topic upsets me no end.

I don't think we BS are drama queens.

What happened to us is the worst drama imaginable. I couldn't have written a better script.

I do feel like a victim. A victim is defined as "one harmed by or made to suffer from an act, circumstance, agency or condition."
We BS have been harmed by the Affair between our spouses and the OP.

We had no say as to the start of ,duration, and length of these acts. The involved partners in the affair made all these decisions, and subsequently harmed us, caused us to suffer. We are suffering. I suffer still, and I am in year 3 of my alleged recovery.

I despise the OW in my case. As much as I ever have despised anyone. She has completely disregarded my presence over and over, for her needs and wants and convenience. My H did the same during the affair, and I have hated him as well. He at least admits where he went wrong, but OW never has.

Let me make this clear. I despise OW and she is on the very top of people I hate-a very short list I might add. But even, given that, I would never ever hurt her as she has hurt me. It is so awful a pain and suffering that I have experienced that I wouldn't even wish it on my worst enemy-- the OW.

Katie, perhaps you find it difficult to recognize that your father's mistake ruined parts of your life. That perhaps your mother never got over OW because it hurt too darm much. Because no one, including you, seemed to see the pain she suffered at the acts perpetrated by your father and OW.

Perhaps OW cannot see our pain and label it instead as "drama"--overzealous drama at that--because to do so would imply they caused others pain. Maybe they just cannot admit that.

And yes, I suppose the OW do feel pain as well.But they caused their pain. The BS did not.

<small>[ January 17, 2003, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: unhappy wife ]</small>
UW,

If you're in a vulnerable or emotional place I would strongly suggest that you not read what I wrote here. I don't want to hurt or upset you. But this is my opinion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by unhappy wife:
<strong>This topic upsets me no end.

I don't think we BS are drama queens.</strong>

UW, it's clear that your pain is still pretty fresh (even 3 years later) and i'm sorry for that. In that pain you may have missed where I said that I USED to think that BS's were being drama queens, but no longer.

<strong>I do feel like a victim. A victim is defined as "one harmed by or made to suffer from an act, circumstance, agency or condition."
We BS have been harmed by the Affair between our spouses and the OP.</strong>

There is no question there. What I take issue with AS IT RELATED TO MY MOTHER, not you, not anybody else on MB, but MY very OWN mother, is the fact that she could not move past it even 30 some odd years later. She has explained it to me time and time again and I just don't understand. I've had some pretty terrible things happen in my life and in time I needed to move past them just so that I could have some quality of life. If the same was not true for MY MOTHER, God bless her. Her life is hers to live. Not mine.

<strong>Katie, perhaps you find it difficult to recognize that your father's mistake ruined parts of your life.</strong>

I recognize that. I accept that my life is what it is. There's nothing I can do to change what happened. The only "fix" for me now is to live well.

<strong>That perhaps your mother never got over OW because it hurt too darm much. Because no one, including you, seemed to see the pain she suffered at the acts perpetrated by your father and OW.</strong>

Maybe you're right. And this much time later, there's nothing for she and I to say about it. I'm sad that she's not over it. And if she's able to hang on to this level of pain and still live a meaningful life, God Bless her. I honestly don't know what else to say. At the same time, as a kid I felt like her paralyzing pain kept her from being the best mother she could have been to us. I resented that what he began she continued. He caused her pain NO QUESTION and she, for what ever reason could not find a way to move out of it. IT like Betty Broderick. The xH and OW are dead, the kids are grown, everyone has moved on and she still screaming (from jail) "I AM THE VICTIM!" I just don't get it. I try hard not to judge it, but I don't understand.

<strong>Perhaps OW cannot see our pain and label it instead as "drama"--overzealous drama at that--because to do so would imply they caused others pain. Maybe they just cannot admit that.</strong>

I can't speak for all OW, but I can see the pain that I caused his wife. I'm sorry for her pain.

<strong>And yes, I suppose the OW do feel pain as well.But they caused their pain. The BS did not.
</strong>

I see this quote again and again and again here on this board. ANd while it is 100% true everytime I read it I think "yes and what now."

Additionallly, ever time I read that same recitation of facts I think "he or she is not done mourning yet" and I leave it alone.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Kstie, yes, I did see where you had writtent that once you felt BS were drama queens, but no longer.

Still, I think it is a painful issue. I can understand your mother's change in personality, the pain your father's betrayal caused her. I liken this to the worst thing that has happened to me, barring the death of one of my children. It hurts that much. It has taken much away from me. I am hurting, but I do move on.

But will I ever be the same? I think not. I can identify with your mother, who seems to have lost some mothering capability because of the pain she felt. I hear you were jipped of that. I understand that. I see myself as a different mother at times-a mommy who can not mother as she once did, because I hurt, I am sad, I am despondent, and I no longer feel towards my H as I once did. I resent that. I resent that my kids now worry when I am sad, and they worry we will divorce. The A and the OC has done this to all of us.

And what makes it hard to move on? I will tell you-the OC. Fair or not. My family now has a weird connection to the OC and OW, two people I had nothing to do with and now everything to do with. I resent that. I will always resent the OW, as your mother did.

Can I get passed this? I don't know. I don't know if my marriage can.Even my in-laws think I should kick my H out. They have a point. This is a devastating trauma to a marriage.

I am vulnerable, but not destroyed.But the A and oC has many victims, my own kids included, and it takes a lot of prisoners. Too many, too many for the alleged joy of the affair for its participants.

<small>[ January 17, 2003, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: unhappy wife ]</small>
hmmm.

No offense UW, but there's nothing for me to say to all of that. I think that each person sees it from their own side.

I know that my mother was initially upset when I became TOW. VERY upset. She never was supportive of it, but more or less said "Love him, but more importantly just love yourself."

More than anything I think she resents the fact that she gave sooo very much of herself to my father (a man who had no respect for that or failed to see that as a gift). It was a gift.

I looked at my mother leading this life so limited by her pain and my father seemed to be kicking up his heels. I think I over identified with him and came to resent my mother.

I was mad that she was sad for sooo long. Espically since he seemed to just get over it and move on. I wanted to be just like him. And I guess in a certain way I am.

I dont "just get over it" but I do in fact get over stuff. Maybe some stuff that I shouldn't, I just do. I can't imagine being incumbered by all of the old stuff. I forgive pretty easily. I even forgave the guy who knowing exposed me to HIV. For my personality I just had to.

I guess we all are who we are meant to be. And sometimes we learn lessons from our parents that they never knew they were teaching.

God bless you and your family UW.
KatieScarlett,
Oh! I see now. I didn't know the whole story behind your parents. I see what you mean about your Mom not letting go after 30 years/and Betty Broderick...two different women, but the same "victim" stance, huh?

Thanks for the laugh about my Mom and Lou having an A <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> And thanks for the sentiments about her hideous disease..... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I felt awful for you because you were in the middle of that situation growing up. You did well though.

You are still a young pup. You'll be ok.

Now can I be sorry for something else? HIV. I am sorry for that.

You keep on going w/your higher power Katie. SHE rocks for you.

Again, thanks for the heart to heart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

love
Debi
hello,
I just wanted to add something to this thread..

I think it is all about guilt. I don't think that I could have an affair because I would just feel so guilty and I don't want to feel that way.

20/20 had a piece on this stating it is good to have some guilt it helps keep us inline.

Take serial kills they say they never felt any guilt for their actions.

And to be honest, I do not think that my OW does not feel guilty for what she has done. And that is what I want her to feel guilty for what she has but us through. I believe my H feels some guilt and hopefully that feeling will make him not have an affair again. I can see how she suffers but she made her choices by keeping the baby. And maybe if she really thought about what it takes to be a single parent and if she can do it on her own, she might have made different choices.

So, maybe if she gets married and is truly committed to a realitionship she might wake up and see all the pain she has caused. This is what I want.

I know there are OW that have waken up and saw the pain caused and this will help stop them from having another affair and ruining someone's else lives.

In general, people need to think about others and the people that they never meant and how their actions will effect them.

I believe a lot things that I don't do is because of the guilt that I will feel. And who wants to feel like that. But takes some thinking on my part to realize that I will feel guilty. And this is where my H went wrong he did not think!

Dawn

Dawn
Hi Everyone
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THe first time I ever even heard of such a thing was here. At first reading I thought "what drama queens." I don't see people who feel that way as drama queens anymore, but I can honestly say that I don't full understand the thinking. It just seems to me that you'd have to be giving away a lot of power to have someone "destroy" your life.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
^^^
I hope that doesn't sound judgemental. It's not meant to be.

--------------------------------------------------

Katie I had a friend, your stories are simular she passed on, she veiwed her mother as being weak.
She looked at father as some knight and shining armour.
My friend pattern herself after her father basically she taught herself unconciously, how to run from conflict not deal with a lot of emotions she substituted by using people places and things.

She raised her self esteem by concurring married men that gave her power as she thought. It was a plus if they left home, eventually the men would go back home.

My friend started having a concious she told me she will never see MM again. My friend found herself a guy single, they married and had children two yrs into the marriage, her husband did to her what she had done to a lot of wives.
HE cheated on her, had OC and eventually divorced her.

My friend became so angry and hurt she started her pattern again, causing havoc in people lives.
She hooked up with a guy that was bisexual he passed the virus on to her. She was in her last stages the virus progress rapidly WHEN WE TALKED.

My friend asked for me. I visited her in a hospice unit, she then told me how sorry she was. She told me it was a mistake to be like her father, which had not a moral fiber or integrity in his bone.

She now understands her mother pain only because she had the opportunity to feel it herself.
Everything she thought she knew she question
she understands what goes around comes around she came to this understanding befor she passed.

She understand how dyfunctional her father was and all the women he encountered. Her father now is an acoholic, her mother is begining to heal because a big part of healing is acknowledgement
and apologies a big part of closure her father finally made ammends for the pain he caused.

I would like to ask you did you mom cheat on your father? No one deserves to be treated in such a way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm 32. There is still time for me to decide. To my thinking (and I hope this doesn't offend anybody on here) I figured out at 30, what it took some of you guys 30 years to figure out.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

You know this was one of my friend favorite sayings, she recently came to termes with this saying BEFORE SHE PASSED. She realize what she knew was a lot of misinformation from a dyfunctional upbringing, that brought her down a lonely path of self distruction these are her words.Children live what they learn they take that into adult life

Not trying to flame, when I read your story I just thought of her and how both of you had simular point of views. On her grave she has a lesson earned is a lesson learned.

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>
malc,,,, if we use your friends idea about children taking what they learn into adult life then fh was always destined to have an affair. her grandfather had one and her mother had one. changed their lives forever as it will forever change ours.

one of the issues i am dealing with is that fh and i discussed this very fact of not gotng down her mothers path.

i quess her fate was sealed.
MALC,

All I can say is that what happens to be remains to be seen.
pops,
I was told recently that my mom had an affair when I was young and that is why my parents divorce. I was 5 at the time to young understand. I know that my mom would go to one guy to the next when she was single. So, for what you said I hope that is not true. I think that people can learn from peoples mistakes. My brother has had affairs when he was married.

I see all the pain it causes people and what pain it has caused me. So, hopefully, I will not go down that path. I think I would just feel too guilty if I had an affair.

Did fullhouse totally understand all the hurt and pain it causes people before she had the affair?

Dawn
Dawn Said:
So, maybe if she gets married and is truly committed to a realitionship she might wake up and see all the pain she has caused. This is what I want.

First, xMM's wife is named Dawn so it's freaky sometimes to read what you have to post.

That aside, I think this sentiment is quite common among BS's. THis is what I know to be true for me - then what? How does that effect the fact that you've been betrayed.

Having every mean thing in the world happen to the OP will never unbreak your heart. Having her feel anything you want her to feel won't get the job done.

Now that's just my opinion, but here's how I know. I mother and I had a TERRIBLE relationship for a very long time. Finally she was here visiting me (years ago) and she said "I was wrong. I screwed up. I was an emotionally unavailable mother. But you're an adult now, what do you want me to do about it now!?"

I was so hurt by the comment, but the truth is that she had a point. Alll of the hurt that I knew as a child I just kept thinking, "if she'd admit it i'll feel better, I can go on."

So she admitted it. She apologized. And I was still left with my feelings. There was still a lot of stuff for me to work out. I think that's why many of hte more seasoned BS's say "it's not about the OP." I think that's true.

I'm sorry for my part in xMM's W's pain. I have apologized to her and as a living ammends to her (and to myself) have left her (and all MM) alone. I have moved on.

That will NEVER undo the 10 year A I had with her husband. This past 18 months if the first time in their entire marriage that there has not been another person involved (to the best of my knowledge).

I did my part. I have cleaned up my side of the street. My sincerest prayer is that they find ways to live esteemable lives for themselves and for their children.

My hands are clean.
Hi Pops, Scarlet, Dawn

Dawn some of us learn from our parents mistake and try not to relive them. You have others just seem to walk in there parents footsteps.

I find sometimes, some of us become what we dislike the most in our parents. My H came from a family of adultry, all of his 6 aunts are divorce
I found that to be shocking.

Me I came from a family they stayed married till death due you part. I have aunts and uncles that have been married more than 30 yrs.

Adultry is something I never seen in my family
I heard of one uncle who was separated from his wife. I was too young to really remember but I just happened to over hear my mother make a statement.

My Uncle had passed, his wife he was still married to, had insurance so she was in charge the women he lived with, really got nothing he also had children by this women.His wife recieved all benefits because she was wife. Child support didn't exist back then.

I remember hearing my mother saying it doesn't pay to be with a married man. I didn't question what she said Maybe I'll try to get heads on that situation.My Uncle was the sole provider.

I know each and everyone of us has to take responsibilty in rearing our children and teach them what effect Adultry has when it shows it's ugly face.

We just can't have a blind eye to it and act like it doesn't exist when we see this, When someone is out purposely to hurt an individual family members must speak up.

This behavior shouldn't be tolerated these OP shouldn't be allowed to prance around family like it's ok it's exceptable. If more people would take a stand we can make a difference.

Not flaming just my honest opinion.
Katie I pray for you and us all.

To Katie
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That aside, I think this sentiment is quite common among BS's. THis is what I know to be true for me - then what? How does that effect the fact that you've been betrayed.

Having every mean thing in the world happen to the OP will never unbreak your heart. Having her feel anything you want her to feel won't get the job done. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">


Sometimes Katie it's not about being mean. It's about getting what is just due for you.
Some people need to feel the pain & havoc they help to create in other lives. Maybe just maybe they will begin to understand the pain they created, and to have a better appreciation and respect for all life.

Some can go through life and never getting the lesson or blessing in life. They will continue to walk into a brick wall and being miserable. Misery loves company.

I call these lesson LAW OF RECIPROCITY, What you put out into the universe you get back, good bad or indifferences .

Yes it makes me feel good to know people get back what they put out, if they feel the same exact pain, of the people they harm. Especially if they learn from there lessons and become a better person that makes me feel damm good yes.

No harm done.

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MALC:
[QB]

This behavior shouldn't be tolerated these OP shouldn't be allowed to prance around family like it's ok it's exceptable. If more people would take a stand we can make a difference.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what EXACTLY would you have happen? I'm interested.
KATE GO BACK AND READ I EDITED.
But isn't that the job of God or the universe or whomever, and not our job as humans?

It just seems to me that this is an awfully vengeful crowd for a so-called Christian site.

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</small>
To kate

Communication, have a family meeting we all come to agreement this is not accceptable. Not allowing OP in our enviroment, when WS a family memeber tries to integrate OP with family don't allow it. That's a start don't accept the behavior don't allow the behavior in your present.

Ws could possibly sacrafice losing his or her relationship with family. Don't be a part of the deception that's a start taking a stand.

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>
To katie
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But isn't that the job of God or the universe or whomever, and not our job as humans?

It just seems to me that this is an awfully vengeful crowd for a so-called Christian site.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">


Katie people are entitled to there feelings.This doesn't mean they are vengeful or hateful because we disagree.Yes it would still be the Creators job, what goes aound comes around that's a universal law. The Creator uses people places and things to bring about lesson nothing is hateful about that.

It's all about learning, talking, hurting, growing
there is nothing wrong with people getting whats due That is of the Creator.

Katie some people don't understand the devastation they cause and especially to children unless they experience the pain for themselves.

Sometimes Katie pain is a great motivator maybe these people will learn through there own pain and possible stop this behavior.

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>
I don't really know your story, but it seems like you're in a lot of pain.

What was most striking to me is that from your signature it seems that the OW has moved on with her life. Maybe she's learned.

I just think it's sad that you're still hurting this much.

With regard to learning from pain, my spiritual teacher says all of the time that Buddah came and taught us of karma. What you put out, you get back. Christ came and taught us of grace. In a moment of grace karma is burned.
To Katie

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't really know your story, but it seems like you're in a lot of pain.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I've calmed down a lot. I still have my kodak moments, (smile) believe me it's not like it use to be, it does get better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What was most striking to me is that from your signature it seems that the OW has moved on with her life. Maybe she's learned </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

No OW hasn't really moved on she married out of spite her attempt was to get H to divorce me this didn't work so she married to get a reaction this didn't work so now she stuck with a decision she made.

OW has a H but she tries to use my H at every attemp still being maniplative not allowing or giving her H the opportunity to be a real H because of her playing games.I feel sorry for her and her children.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just think it's sad that you're still hurting this much.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Everything is a process, but you know there are people hurting, walking around aimlessly not realizing they are hurting. They display there pain in other ways by hurting other. Hurt people hurt people.

I'm not as pained as you describe it really is a whole lot better.

You seem to be in some pain your self not knowing your whole story but from what I've read you have every right to feel what you feel.

Lot's of OP & H. hurt also, they act out on there pain by allowing themselves to get caught in situation that are not conducive to neither.

We are are suffering in one form or another either from our own doing or someone else. It depends whether you are in denial or acknowledge whatever it may be.
Katie,

The reason I want them to feel guilty is because so they don't do it again! I believe that the reason why people don't cheat is because of guilt.

Dawn
Actually for the first time in a long time I would describe myself as totally at peace. Believe me, it's been a journey.

I have worked through my issues with both of my parents. I have a working relationship with both of them. I have ended things with MM and have zero desire to return to that life. He calls or shows up every now and then, but i'm happy to cut him off at the knees. I just have no desire for that level of drama.

I have a loving relationship with a wonderful single man and we are planning a family together.

I will be honest and say that I don't fully understand the path that most marriages take. Of the people that I know who are married I can only think of one happy couple. Our relationship works for us, but the idea of marriage scares me to death. I've seen/lived too much to have some pie in the sky, fanciful view of the whole thing.

If nothing else, reading here has helped me understand what I DONT want. I guess we'll just have to see how it all shakes out.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Dawn71:
<strong>Katie,

The reason I want them to feel guilty is because so they don't do it again! I believe that the reason why people don't cheat is because of guilt.

Dawn</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I felt guilty about MM's w (in the beginning) and I kept doing it for a loooooong time. We even did it in their bed. The guilt passed. (or was masked as righteous indignation)

Self love lead me out of my EMA FAR sooner than guilt ever did.
Katie I respect your honesty you have every right to be afraid so am I.

I don't ever want to relive this nightmare again I was reading a post on this forum I believe It was explaining the excitement of an affair because of the newness of having someoneelse when that's gone they explore other option.

This is scary within itself, I choose to be just as I am.
MALC,

Can I ask you a personal question, and please feel free to not answer if you think it's too personal.

This is a total thread jack, but I often wonder about stuff like this.

Here's your signature
Married 5yrs 8/25/97
separated 3/98
so he moved out?
H & I continued seeing
each other during separation
Dday 5/13/00
were you living together at this time?
OC BORN 1/01
Separated from OW 7/02
OW married another guy 8/9/02
H contacted me 7/16/02
we've been communicating since.


You've gone through soooo very much in 5 short years of marriage. Why do you stay? It seems that you and H were seperated when you were married less than 1 year. Do you think that there is real hope for a meaningful drama free relationship considering that this one began sooo dramatically?

I just wonder because often on this board I read about wifes who put up with FAR more degrating situations than I EVER did as an OW.

I hope this is not an offensive question. It's not meant to be.
Easy, KatieScarlett...
MALC is in so much turmoil and pain now....I e-mail her sometimes.

Her holidays were filled with sadness.

Maybe she still sees you as OW in her situation?

OR perhaps she's trying to figure out YOUR life....to help you? Or ...well.... Ummm......

I'm not sure KatieScarlett, what her intentions are.(MALC)

Can we give her a pass? You and I?

Thankyou Katie. I've learned a lot from you. You will be fine.

MALC still needs time. Let her have it.

BTW I told my Mom about her A with Lou Gehrig...she said she wished it was only that....lol....not his friggin disease!!!!!

love ya Katie,
Debi
Hi kate

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You've gone through soooo very much in 5 short years of marriage. Why do you stay? It seems that you and H were seperated when you were married less than 1 year. Do you think that there is real hope for a meaningful drama free relationship considering that this one began sooo dramatically?

I just wonder because often on this board I read about wifes who put up with FAR more degrating situations than I EVER did as an OW.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">


Believe it or not I ask the same question over and over I ask myself why?

First I wanted to be sure I did everything possible to save my marriage.

I was so full of rage, when H and I had the opportunity my anger wouldn't allow me to forgive then I saw, no matter what I try he hasn't changed I've made attemps and still continue to deal with me.

I know I will not go through another year with this. I know this year I will make a dramatic decision because this situation is not healthy for me.

Now for the other BS here they have time invested and they have children to consider and how there over all situation affects there children and them selves as a whole.

Some of these women here, have been married before you were born it's hard to just walk away from a situation like that they really love there H.

You say you haven't gone through much being the OW as they have being the wife. Thats it because you were the OW You don't know him as if wife do.

Wife knows every fiber and flaw in this man sole
even though he lies to wife. Wife wants to believe her husband she knows deep down in her spirit something is wrong.

Mainly it's quilt that cause a WS to treat his wife in a way he doesn't treat you. He has no reason to be quilty with you on the other hand he literally destroyed his family and is faced, with the looks on his children face. You and WS are basicly feeling the same pain. He doesn't owe you anything.

You helps him to escape from his self, his wife is a reminder of who he really is especially if he's trying to run from self denial. he can't be in denial around wife.

See Katie A isn't really about how bad the wife treats the H as they tell so many OW in some cases yes it's about emotional need in a lot of cases it not. It's about MM inadeguacies, his low self worth, something he brought into the marriage which has nothing to do with wife, his child hood baggage issues meaning it's you.

He looks for a scapegoat, to lash out at someone he loves because he knows she love him and will tolerate this because wife loves him unconditionally and for the sake of family ,so he runs to you for an escape. What he runs from, he runs into still his low self worth.Escape from self.

No what I went through it's not worth it at all.
I'm doing everything I can so when it's finally over, I'll be able to sleep at night without demons of guilt riding my back, did you do everything possible to save what is left of a marriage. I'll be able to say yes but when it's finally over for me it's over.
I hope I didn't offend anyone this is not my intentions.

Oh by the way 1/16/ 03 OC birthday was a serious trigger for me. The day before I couldn't understand what was going on with me until the next day I asked what date is this I was told the 16 and boy did I feel it.

But I have good days also I laugh with my co-workers I've leaned not to worry about what people say.

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>
dawn,,,, fh was very much aware of the pain her mother caused herself and the unrest it caused her ex husband. they divorced and lived unhappily for about 20 years until her mother passed away. even though her dad had remarried but you could always feel the tension in the air. her mom never remarried and livd lonely until she died.

i don't know if fh even thought of the pain involved just the inconvience at holiday and special occassion times.
i would like to add one more thing. that i do believe people can learn from the mistakes of other before them. but only if they can realize their own vulnerability to the problem.
bintheredunthat

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It IS disgusting. What I did was disgusting. But I turned a corner. I changed. My changes didn't stop the consequences that were already in motion because of poor choices, but nevertheless there was a change of heart </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">beautiful post ....screams of integrity regained.

Paul said it best I think.... Romans 12:1-2

"Therefore, I urge you brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God-this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind . Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is-his good, pleasing and perfect will."

wow what a passage. fits perfect here.

If your actions speak to a true "renewal of your mind" after you have repented, then you have become a living sacrifice and have true peace in that knowledge. you can shout for joy in the shelter of His wings!!!

peace
tim
Thanks for your answer MALC-

I wasn't trying to be mean or cause you pain or anything it's just that your signature struck me (as many here do). I can understand why a wife of 20+ years stays and at least trys to work it out. It's some of the shorter marriages that give me pause.

For me, part of it is that I read OP asked over and over "where is your self respect?" Then I see W's go through situations that seem so horrible yet they get pats on the back for staying. I know that EMR's and M's are not the same. But at the end of the day self love is self love.

I high tailed it out of my EMA (as hard as it was) becasue I had grown in my level of love for self. It truely breaks me heart to read some of the stories here. I guess i'm lucky in that I didn't have to go through a big legal proceeding to leave my 10 year relationship. But that's 1/3 of my life spent with this man. We tried again and again to work it out in a way that would be good for everyone (then later just good for me). Some times it worked great. Other times not.

In the end I didn't leave becuase I didn't love him. In fact I loved him VERY much, I just loved me more.

God bless you MALC and God bless all BS's.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
[QB]"where is your self respect?" Then I see W's go through situations that seem so horrible yet they get pats on the back for staying. I know that EMR's and M's are not the same.

=^^= I struggled so with this question in the beginning right after D-day. I went down to visit my Mom and told her what a fool I felt like for even considering staying in the marriage after all he had done. I mean, an affair is devastating enough, but an OC???? I said, "I feel so weak. I bet everyone thinks I look weak". She looked at me so started and said, "oh, no, Honey. You aren't weak to stay. Leaving is the easy way out. You're the strong one. It takes amazing strength to stay and try to recover from this."

I guess I felt like you did in the beginning, thinking my staying was a dependency or a weakness when in reality it was my own self love and my love for my history, my investment, my feelings for my husband and my heart and the strength within that allowed me to stay rather than take the easy road. I also know there are friends who know of this who probably feel as you do and think I am a puss for working the recovery because they themselves beleive they would have bailed.

To be completely honest, I believe each of us have to weigh the "worthiness" of the marriage and determine whether or not it is worth it to fight the good fight or retreat from the battle. In my case, his affair did not last long, my husband was crazy about me before the fling and we had developed such a rich and intricate life together that I would miss it and him the rest of my life if I abandoned the marriage. I just couldn't stand the thought of not sharing every moment to come with him.

But at the end of the day self love is self love.

=^^= Exactly. My self love made me stay because fixing what was broken was better for me than starting over without him. My reward has been a marriage that is so elevated over the one we had, (which was wonderful and the main reason I stayed) I didn't think it could ever get better than what we had but it is...far better than I could ever imagine. While I wish we could have come to this point in our lives without the drama of four years ago, and I still have occasional heartburn over the situation primarily because I can't stand the thought of him sharing such and intimate part of himself with some one else, (I am vain I suppose) he has become even more devoted and more committed to me and to the marriage. He appreciates me and loves me more than before which I thought was impossible, but it is true. As a result, I have even more respect for him than before because he was strong enough to stay and fix things when it would have been easier to go to her or to leave me. I trust him more than before because he isn't the slightest bit interested in anyone but me where before he would occasionally scope out "talent". I guess what happened to him and to the marriage was so horrible with such disasterous consequences, he reacts to other women a little like he's had aversion therapy.
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ January 22, 2003, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>
Hey there Cat (my fellow Katie),

I don't necessarily thing women who stay are being puss's. I'm just trying to understand. Having read your story it actually makes some since to me that you stayed.

I was really asking about the shorter relationships.

My best friend married a guy in Jan of 2002 (justice of the peace). Then married him again (big formal wedding) in March 2002. I was the maid of honor in the second wedding.

Her first wedding night she spent on the phone crying to me. The night of the second wedding she ran to my hotel room (right next to hers) crying saying that she wanted to stay with me.

It's nearly a year later, she's pregnant with his child and everyday that i'll listen to it I hear about how terrible things are, but how she's fighting for her marriage.

I read on here about d-day #1 and I think "how sad", then comes d-day #2,3,4,5,6 and i'm just thinking <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> "what?"

I'm not trying to judge i'm just trying to understand. Espically for folks in short marriages.

I wonder is it somthing to do with marriage? It is those individual people? It is the stress of making such a bond? I just don't get it.
You know what, the more I think about it and probably the whole reason that I stay on this site is that I wonder.

I wonder about marriage, coupling and intimate relationships as a whole. There are so astonishingly few people that I know who are happily coupled. I am happily coupled, and it makes me wonder if i'm missing something.

My friend Richard tells me that there is no other shoe. That I should sit back and enjoy what we have. It's so vanilla and boring (THANK GOD!).

Maybe this is the WAY WRONG place to come with my questions about happy peaceful relationships. I just don't know.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>...
Maybe this is the WAY WRONG place to come with my questions about happy peaceful relationships. I just don't know.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No-no, I don't think that at all because at one time or another, I believe, ALL the relationships represented here absolutely did experience happy and peaceful times, or else none of these good people would have committed their lives to their WS's in the first place.

This is a place to help us figure out how to get back to those peaceful times, only I'm not sure if there IS any going back, it's a whole new path we are on. The path is recovery and how to stay there (in recovery) and not revert backward due to triggers, which we all have--BS, WS and OPs... You know, how to recover and then affair-proof our marriages.

The BS didn't marry a WS, they married on grounds of mutual commitment. I hope! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> The A is something that evolved for individual reasons, and an OP had a role in hurting the marriage just as the WS and the BS. Each person needs to take responsibility for their role--and that's a quote directly out of Dr.Harley's "Surviving An Affair."

p.s.Thanks tuff-hubby <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I know that's not your name, but it should be... (meaning tuff in a strong way--strong in the Lord kind of way... Prayers & well-wishes to ya...)

<small>[ January 22, 2003, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>
You know btdt,

I read here and I see so many people still in the "pain" phase I have to ask myself why i'm here.

No offense to those who are, but if you're not wrecked with pain, vengence or whatever else, the pickings are pretty slim on this site.

I think this site serves it's purpose and God bless it for that, but it gets to be a major downer after a while. ANd I read all different threads.

If I were in a lot of pain this is the #1 place to show up. But what of those who have working relationships? Is there another "happily coupled" site somewhere?

Maybe if things are going well there's nothing to discuss. I love my job. There's not much to say about it. It's fine. Now if I hated my job i'm sure there'd be 50 places on line for me to go. Know what I mean?
katie,

i don't want to offend, but how DID you become involved on this board? from what i read, you are not a ws, bs or ow w/ oc. am i missing something? maybe i'm out of line for asking , but i've been seeing a lot of people lately who don't seem to have any reason to post advice or opinions here doing exactly that. i hope i don't upset anyone by being so outspoken.
Steph,
It's fine that you asked. I was the ow in a 10 year affair.
Katie.

I understand and even wonder the same things you do. I too wonder why a woman would fight for a marriage that endured such a horrendous trauma of and A and an OC so early in a new marriage of a year, or two or even five. Especially if she is really young.

When I was married to my first husband, he had a shelf life of 4 years when I found out he was a snake and put him out with the trash. There was no OC but I certainly wasn't going to stay with a man who would betray me just out of the gate...there wasn't much to look forward to, I hadn't a lot of history with him yet, I was young and had lots of options and a whole life ahead of me. I didn't want to spend it with someone who clearly was not devoted to me.

So, like you, it baffles me why someone would stay in a fairly new marriage if there wasn't this intense love to see them through the joy and hardships. I'm not talking "fatal attraction" kind of love, I'm talking the depth of the "til death do you part" kind of love. I admit my first marriage was based on lust, excitement and all the trappings that "felt" like love but was just immaturity, feelings never before experienced and drama.

The reason old timers come here over and over again after swearing off this place years later is because they owe something...to give back what healing they have received, to give hope to newcomers suffering that a marriage can not only survive, but thrive and take on a whole new meaning as never before.

I'm glad things are a little "vanilla" for you right now because I bet life for you has been "rocky road" for far too long. We all need peace in our lives at times to give us balance and strength to endure life's surprises, unpleasant and otherwise. Rocky road is over rated anyway. I know if all you seem to be getting is vanilla, your cravings for the other is normal, but it will eventually make you sick if you have too much. To liven up the vanilla, add hot sauces, whipped cream and go nuts.

Katie Catnip =^^=
Thanks for your wise words Catnip! You're a doll.

We're vanilla right now and i'm THRILLED!!!!

I've lived enough drama to last me 3 lifetimes!
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