not here to cause pain/problems...need understanding

xMM and his wife have decided, for reasons that I am not privy to, to go NC with OC. This was a dramatic change of heart...overnight change. We had all the details worked out for visitation and everyone seemed to be on-board..then I got the call, and subsequent e-mail ending all contact, not just with me but the baby too...for good.

Can someone please explain to me why this is necessary. My heart is breaking for my child and xMM. He was present for the birth (again, agreed to) and I saw how he was with the baby. I don't understand.

[ September 06, 2003, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: twilight ]

Interesting. I read some of your old posts, your d-day was April 2002 and you called yourself ex-OW May 2002. By my math, you weren't ex if you just had a baby recently. And to top it off, you now want to know why the ex-MM and wife would go NC on you for information you aren't privy to!?!? Unbelievable. You are a piece of work. ex-MM's wife has a lot of strength to put up with all of this. How dare you even ask any kind of questions about why they are going NC. Maybe because it sounds like you and ex-MM weren't so ex when you should have been. And it sounds like you, like my ex, didn't learn about the birds and the bees and where babies come from, even after having a 3 yr affair, so you "accidentally" got pregnant.
I am usually not so harsh, even to ex-OW, but you sound like you still have a lot to learn.

I haven't posted here in ages, but felt the need to here. This girl JUST gave birth a few weeks ago. She's desperately trying to understand the WHY's of things - and yeah, she's been here before, but I think with the subject line and the question that she asked that, adgirl, could you have been a LITTLE more compassionate? Or maybe just said nothing?
I was wincing just reading it.

Dear Twilight,

Giving birth already stirs up your emotions so much. It must be terrible to have gotten the commitment of the father to share the responsibility only to have him decide after the fact that he is no longer interested. Of course, I can't tell you a definite reason, but I don't mind sharing some of my personal views with you if you believe it will help.

I am a BS. I have no malice towards the ex-OW because I believe strongly that it was my H's responsibility to live up to his end of the marriage contract. She did not have to consider my feelings.

When my H confessed the A and told me about the OC on the way, I can't tell you the kind of emotions that I felt. When you love someone and you believe in their love for you, the disclosure of an affair makes you angry, sad, fearful -- so many emotions I can't even describe.

Women, I believe, are basically the same. I read on another board a sentence that I believe describes all of our situations. Women simply want to believe a man who says they love us. The biggest problem in the W and OW situation is that the man generally lies to both of us.

He tells the OW that the W does not understand him, that they no longer communicate, that their marriage is a shell of what it used to be, and the best one of all, he and his W are no longer intimate. Lies, lies, lies. I can tell you honestly that I had no idea my husband was having an affair. We spent quality time together, talking, laughing, visiting friends, relatives. He would hold my hand, constantly put his arms around me, tell me he loved me and the sex was unbelievably good -- always has been. My H was a serial liar and a serial liar lies to everyone involved.

He enjoyed knowing that he could still get the attention of another woman. He made up all kinds of stories and lived fantasies with her. He told her things about his life that were not even true, and worst of all, he told her that his marriage was no good and that she was his saviour. He was selfish and did not care about consequences because he was having too much fun.

But, when she told him that she was pregnant, that forced reality to step in. That was when he realized that now he was entering into a "marriage situation" with the OW. And, a new marriage was not what he wanted. That was when he decided to tell me the truth and try to work out whatever problems he perceived we had in our marriage.

My H and I also talked about how to handle the baby. During the OW's pregnancy, we came up with a plan for visitation and, of course, child support. But, Twilight, it was not real yet because the child had not been born. My H was also present at the OC's birth. The actual birth changed all of the emotions for both of us.

Someone on MB just said that childbirth is the "ultimate intimacy" and I guess that is when all parties realize what is really happening and how life is really going to change. I suspect that the same metamorphosis happened to your ex-MM and his wife. They were probably good people wanting to do the right thing, but the enormity of their emotions after the baby arrived overwhelmed them. They may have decided that the strain on their marriage would be too great at a time when they were both feeling very fragile.

The situation might very well be temporary. Many couples decide to have no contact for a while to let their emotions calm down and let their marriage get stronger so that they can deal with the strain of this new child in the midst of their lives.

Unfortunately, I have read many accounts where MM tell OWs that no contact was "demanded" by the wife. In my case, and in cases that I know, that is not true. No one can keep you from seeing and being with your own child without your agreement. Therefore, the MM is fully responsible for changing your agreement. It is a sad fact that many MM hide behind their wives and make us out to be the mean, vindictive bi*ch who won't allow them to see their child.

Excuse me ... did we ALLOW them to have an affair? But they did it anyway, right? Still, we become the scapegoat for their own weakness and their own shame.

I can also tell you that my H was truly ashamed of how he led his ex-OW on, the broken promises that he made to her, and the way he saddled her with a child for the rest of her life, after making her believe that they would live happily ever after. I was also angry that he had ruined another person's life through his thoughtlessness and lies. (Our case is a bit different from yours because we wanted contact but the ex-OW would not allow me to be part of the child's life (long, sad, story))

By all means pursue child support, because your child is entitled to that. But, I would give them a little time to settle down and come around to the idea of contact with your child. If, in fact, they don't, believe me, your child will be the better for it. That sounds very hard to take now because you are just starting on this journey of parenthood. But, I have seen first-hand the effects on a child of constant disappointments (not showing up) and a child feeling that he is not "good enough" to be loved by his wayward parent. I would rather raise a child on my own that have my child subjected to that.

Take good care of yourself right now, because you are in a highly emotional state. Try to concentrate on the joy of your new child. I will keep you in my prayers.

love,
heavenly

I read your post on GB. I think MM confessed to sleeping with you again. I remeber you saying that's why you went in labor. If I was o.k. with contact and then MM confessed to sleeping with OW again I would insit on NC too.

Just something to think about. And please realize I'm not trying to bash you in anyway. I supported my H having contact with OC, exOW couldn't handle it.

Unsure

Mom to Josh,
Yes, I could have been more compassionate. yet, I was not because I haven't seen where this girl wants to help anyone but herself. ANY ex-OW comes here and posts and truly wants help and is remorseful, I am not harsh to. I am not even harsh with OW in my situation. In fact, I have been the complete opposite. However, when I read about twilight wondering why father won't be a part of OC's life, yet not even stopping to think about the wife, I get fed up. She AND MM both did this, she AND MM have to figure out how to deal with the consequences. Maybe one of the consequences was MM not seeing the child.
And like unsure919400 said, why would you NOT insist on NC when you are the wife, and your ex is in the delivery room of OW, and has slept with her since D-day and this is the result?!!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

[ September 07, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]

twilight,

Let me tell you. The pain of another woman having my husband's child will forever haunt me and hurt me. It has not gotten easier over years of time since birth of OC.

Perhaps in your situation, the contact with OC is just too painful for them both. You see, when you were involved with A with your MM, the wife probably did not know.She was not privy to things you and her H were doing to modify all things in her life.She had no say. And probably, the both of you thought that things could continue in that way forever, even with birth of child.That the wife would have no say, and you and he would act as a couple with OC as wife and h act with their children.

But if the marriage is to continue, then what the MM does with anyone and anything should be decided by the couple together. Let's face it-had the MM discussed having an A in first place with wife, I doubt wife would have given her consent.
A marriage is meant for two people joined together, who choose to be together, to decide very important things together.Each person gets a say.

In the case of contact with OC, that must feel o.k to both for this to work. IT will never be a normal situation for OC either even if just MM sees child. The child, if not incorporated into MMs family,will always wonder why not? And how come? And at some point, will have to be told why-- not because of the fault of the child,but the fault of its parents, that incorporating the child into a ready made family with its own life and mores cannot happen because to do so would alter everyone's lives and perhaps pain them. Even more than they have been hurt already, and trust me, they have been hurt-and Because the parents set it up that way.

I feel for you,and I feel for your child, but as a BS, I feel more for my children, whose lives have changed drastically since A and OC in my life. My H is not with OW, but he is not with me either, and he is no full time parent to any child. I don't see how this is good for anyone. He has hurt so many people, not just our family, that he has lost a lot of respect and love from others. I feel for you. I hope you can work this out.

[ September 07, 2003, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: unhappy wife ]

unhappy wife,
If I was too harsh, as someone said before, then you put it beautifully. You said everything I felt except I didn't have any children of my own. But all your reasonings and thoughts- those could have come directly out of my head.
Thanks.

"I don't understand" ---->they have their own life together as a married couple, and you are not a part of their life anymore. This is their choice. You don't need to understand or like their choice, but facts must be accepted. Accept this fact, you are not a family member of theirs.

"Can someone please explain to me why this is necessary." ----> Perhaps they need to have NC to heal themselves and their marriage. It doesn't matter. Their reasons are none of your business. They think it is necessary, that is all you need to know.

Now you have your own life, completely separate from theirs. This is the life that you've created for yourself and your child. Do the best you can. Get child support.

Pep

My last discussion with Twilight May 5th 2002

[ September 07, 2003, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

I want to thank you for your responses, especially Heavenly. For me it was "real" after the 1st sonogram, and I adequately freaked out then. I never considered that it had not be real to them until the birth given all the on-going discussions between us.

I am better today, and have come to the conclusion that this is going to be for the best. I need to be free of them just as much as I am sure they need to be free of me. I have contacted the BW one last time by e-mail with a proposal for CS and to let her know I am willing to put in writing in a legal document that I will not contact either of them again, unless they wish it. My attorney was already drawing up papers to clarify our custody arrangement, so I offered to include the financial portion as well and get this done ASAP so we can all move on. They just wanted a verbal agreement but I have requested it be done by a legal consent agreement, and I will pay the attorney fees.

For the first time in years, I am starting to feel detached from him. I agree he is hiding behind his wife, so I have chosen to deal with her exclusively. He has proven to be completely irrelevant. I guess I am finally free...not sure how it feels yet. All I feel for him is pity, pity that he is such a coward...something that he hates.

Again, thank you for letting me be your guest.

[ September 07, 2003, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: twilight ]

Twilight,
I don't post a whole lot anymore, but your post, and also some of the replies to it, really is making me think and reevaluate a lot of things.

As usual, heavenly put it best, and unhappy wife also did a wonderful job of articulating what might be going through the bs's mind regarding contact. I am not sure that I can add a lot there. But I can suggest a possible answer too...

To be honest, back in the darker days of my life, I used to derive a great amount of satisfaction from the fact that ow had to go through labor and delivery without my h (now ex-h) there with her. The fact that she was basically stuck with having the baby without knowing the intimacy and without sharing in the profound joy of the first few weeks of having a new baby was a sort of salve on the open wound I carried because of the affair. It sounds terrible, I know, but at the time I truly wanted her to suffer as I had suffered - or at least for her to experience some of the hurt and rejection I felt she had helped subject me to. I felt that I had "won" something by h's choices in that regard.

While I would not say that the wife in your case is actually enjoying the idea of hurting you, I would imagine that she is in significant pain and does not want her h to do anything that might be construed as offering moral and emotional support to you. Maybe once time goes by, she will be able to separate oc from the affair itself. It took me about 4 years to get to that point in my own life. Before that, the oc was just a symbol of incredible pain to me. When I did get to know her, however, I grew to love her very much.

I have found, in reading your post, that I really do not care too much for the person I was way back then. When I look back at it, the ow in my situation was a 21 year old kid. I am sure that my ex lied to her, told her he loved her, and assured her that he would be there to be a father to her child. While there are parts of me that still dislike the ow, there are parts of me now that really feel for her and the lousy position she was in. I still don't condone her outrageously nasty behaviors towards me, or her subsequent inability to care for the oc properly (long story - see some of my old posts). But on the other hand, I guess time and distance, along with the change in my circumstances (divorce) have given me a different perspective on things. For the first time, I am starting to think about what she went through. I can't imagine being that young and going through delivery alone. It occurs to me that my ex was not a very nice person in creating that situation, even if it was her choice to be there as well. The problem in this sort of thing is that there is NO perfect solution. Any way you look at it, somebody is going to get hurt, and hurt badly.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I feel for you and I hope you get through this ok. I probably will never say anything like that to the ow from my past, but maybe you will allow this to be a little bit of atonement for all the hatred I have directed towards her in the past. I would advise you not to give up hope that your little one will have a father in his/her life someday, one way or another. Until that day comes, you can only do your best to be a good mother. Right now I am raising four wonderful young boys almost on my own and while it is scary as hell sometimes, it can be done. ANd although there were days in the beginning that I thought I would never get through it, it honestly does get easier as time goes by. At this point, even though I have a truly special boyfriend in my life, I have learned to enjoy my independence and actually enjoy having some nights to myself and my children.

Twilight, what you need to do is focus on taking care of you, and loving that baby. Take one day at a time, and lean on your friends and family when you need to. The rest will work itself out someday. Try not to think about the email as a rejection of your child. I know that when my ex screws over my children, I hurt for them like any mother does, and I'm sure that is causing a lot of pain for you. I'm sure that is the worst part for you. Keep in mind that this is no reflection on your child, and one blessing is that the baby is too young to realize what is happening right now.

Best of luck to you. I will keep you in my prayers.

Wow, looking back at this post, it certainly does ramble on some. Hope you can make tops or tails of it somehow.
-cd

cd...thank you so much for your words. Although they have left me in tears, they do offer understanding, something I badly need right now.

I did take it as a rejection of my baby. I have offered visitation through a third party so there would be no contact between us, but even that was denied. I just couldn't understand why he didn't want his baby after seeing them together. I saw the love he had for the child...a child that he insisted I keep, even dreamed out loud about having.

We all have behaviour we would rather forget. When i think back to how emotional I was when this first blew open I am embarassed. I am trying to make up for it now.

Again thank you.

[ September 08, 2003, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: twilight ]

Joshmom

You've got a lot of nerve coming here and chastising adgirl48 for her uncompassionate comments, based on a posting made by you on GB just recently.

I'm sure if everyone on this BB knew that during your last court date for increased CS, you sat behind xMM with your lawyer and made faces at xMM while your lawyer laughed, because xMM would not look at you and is in NC with his OC, your words would probably carry a little more weight around here.

Oh yeah I keep forgetting, NC is child abandonment in your eyes, even if the BS and WS are trying to rebuild their marriage. And didn't I once read a posting you wrote that maintains MB advocates child abandonment?

Sorry if this post is inappropriate, but her comments just burned me up.

Hi twilight,
Regarding your post that said "xMM is hiding behind his wife..."

Are you sure about that? He probably loves his wife very much and is sorry for hurting her by getting involved with you.

Further contact with you will absolutely cause their marriage more pain, regardless of the baby.

As a single parent, your child's emotional well-being is totally up to you. It is up to you to decide who is qualified to make deposits into your child's life. And if you ask me, raising your OC apart from the MM and his family might even simplify your lives together!

As long as your baby is not rejected by you, then that baby is not rejected. Your work is cut out for you and it won't be easy. You will have to answer to your kid why he or she doesn't have a dad. You will have to not only accept the MM and his wife's choice of NC, but you will one day need to explain that to the OC!!! (Not fun.) You will also have to accept that what you did was wrong and be able to articulate that to your OC so that he or she doesn't make the same mistake that you did! Kids do hold us parents accountable for our bad choices and mistakes in life.

You need to be ready for all that and pray for God's wisdom about how to talk to your child about life because the day will come when the tough questions will be asked of you--and it might be sooner than you expect!

BTDT,
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
You are the spokesperson for any of us... Time and again you have proven to me that God speaks through you.

Ya know? If it were my first visit here I'd be inclined to stay and rebuild my marriage because of you and your attitude..

Blessings have been abundant to you I'm sure.

You know that an oc doesn't neccessisarily need a WS to be DADDY... look at what you've done with your young man! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I love you BTDT.
Thankyou from the bottom of my BS heart for telling it like it is.
love
Debi

[ September 10, 2003, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by forgettingthepast2:
Joshmom

You've got a lot of nerve coming here and chastising adgirl48 for her uncompassionate comments, based on a posting made by you on GB just recently.

I'm sure if everyone on this BB knew that during your last court date for increased CS, you sat behind xMM with your lawyer and made faces at xMM while your lawyer laughed, because xMM would not look at you and is in NC with his OC, your words would probably carry a little more weight around here.

Oh yeah I keep forgetting, NC is child abandonment in your eyes, even if the BS and WS are trying to rebuild their marriage. And didn't I once read a posting you wrote that maintains MB advocates child abandonment?

Sorry if this post is inappropriate, but her comments just burned me up.<hr /></blockquote>I don't know what all this is about but I appreciate you taking up for me there. I don't think I was "flaming" twilight, I simply can't understand how she could continue to be so selfish as to want answers for things that she should not have participated in in the first place. It was still a "woe is me" post.
Twilight, if you truly want help and you truly don't want to cause pain, you have to quit looking at what is in it for you and look at the damage done and face the music. In my book, you have to be remorseful to get anywhere. I didn't hear that in your post. That is the only reason I was angry with it. Sometimes people need a good 2x4 to get their head screwed back on straight.

Been there...the hiding behind his wife comment had more to do with the way he has handled things than his ultimate choices. He makes a decision and then says...my wife made me do it. That's what I meant by that. He will not take accountability for his decisions to either her or me. Today I found out a bunch of things that he has said about me that is complete crap...not to his wife but to mutual friends. I probably shouldn't be here tonight as my anger level towards him is at an all time high. We had CS arangements laid out and because I asked that they be put to paper and filed with the courts he is now denying paternity and going to take this to court. I just want this to be over and I feel like he is dragging it out for no purpose. What can he hope to acomplish but putting us all through more hell. It is one thing to walk away from a child (and sorry ladies but I do see it as abandonment), it is another thing to deny the child.

It is one thing to walk away from a child (and sorry ladies but I do see it as abandonment), it is another thing to deny the child.

Well some may look at it as abandonment, some may question why a mother would bring a child into the world under these circumstances. To each his own right? By the way, where is that child now while you are just being busy angry at ex-MM? Are you just angry at him or angry at yourself ???

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by forgettingthepast2:
Joshmom

You've got a lot of nerve coming here and chastising adgirl48 for her uncompassionate comments, based on a posting made by you on GB just recently.

JM: And what does my post on GB have to do with the price of tea in China? Or Twilight's post for that matter?

I'm sure if everyone on this BB knew that during your last court date for increased CS, you sat behind xMM with your lawyer and made faces at xMM while your lawyer laughed, because xMM would not look at you and is in NC with his OC, your words would probably carry a little more weight around here.

JM: Well, considering the fact that 99% of the people here read the boards THERE, I wouldn't be surprised if everyone knew. I don't have anything to hide. Yes, I sat behind him and made faces. My lawyer laughed because he thinks that xMM is a jerk - and he was telling me to stop it, but he totally understands where I'm coming from. I can't stand xMM. I've never hidden that fact. And I didn't make faces because he wouldn't look at me, or because of NC. I made faces at him because basically he's an [censored]. Plain and simple. Any other questions about THAT?

Oh yeah I keep forgetting, NC is child abandonment in your eyes, even if the BS and WS are trying to rebuild their marriage. And didn't I once read a posting you wrote that maintains MB advocates child abandonment?

JM: I think that NC and abandonment are a very fine line, and I didn't come here to discuss that, I just felt for Twilight, because I was in her shoes 7 years ago so I know what she's going through. I've since moved onto better shoes, though. If you'd like to discuss the whole NC and abandonment thing - I'd be more than happy to, but I have my opinion, you have yours. It's one of the wonderful things about this country - you're allowed to have opinions.

Sorry if this post is inappropriate, but her comments just burned me up.<hr /></blockquote>JM: Who's? Mine or Twilights? I've never come here and been disrespectful to ANYONE.

adgirl I didn't come here to fight or to defend the relationship. You don't know what I feel whether it be remorse or not. I came here to post about my child, not the emr.

As for the abandonment issue, can we agree to disagree. Oh and my three week old is sleeping while I am angry with xMM.

adgirl I didn't come here to fight or to defend the relationship. You don't know what I feel whether it be remorse or not. I came here to post about my child, not the emr.

No I don't know about your remorse, but I do know that this is a Marriage BUILDERS forum.

Twilight:
I'm sorry you are going through this. Without hurting anyone's feelings until someone has been in your shoes they have no clue where you are coming from. That goes for either the bs or ow. Emotions are really high on both ends. I've been a BS, and I am now the xow pregnant. The affair was a huge mistake and although it was so wrong.....I would never ever disrespect someone for keeping a child no matter what the circumstances. Adoption is another story if the mother is not able to care for her child. It's not like giving up a cat or a dog. Maybe the uh does not have choices in this, but he had the choice to have the A. No matter what your (uh and ow) are taking some type of chance. My xmm will have nc with my child. He will pay child support. HIs choice. His loss. Yes his loss. The up on this, I don't have to deal with his w nor do I have to worry about making any decisions with him regarding my child. Twilight I agree with you it is abandonment as well. The person who said it earlier was very kind on how she said you would have to deal with this later on in life on why his dad is not around. Ya know this is the MB forum and there are some other sites you can go too. You have every right as much as W does to be hurt and upset. Maybe for different reasons, but you have feelings too. I'm sure the lady who commented to you about where is your daughter while you are mad at xmm, really did not mean that. If she has kids she knows you can have kids and still be fuming at someone. She is emotional for her own reasons. Feel free to email me if you would like. My email address is: marysway@cox.net.

. I'm sure the lady who commented to you about where is your daughter while you are mad at xmm, really did not mean that. If she has kids she knows you can have kids and still be fuming at someone. She is emotional for her own reasons

Actually I really did mean that. Because my point is, twilight, according to what i read on this post, is not thinking about OC, or W's feelings- but only of herself and what she will do, when she took part in 1/2 this mess.
Yes, I am emotional for my own reasons, (probably because my ex-h's ow is selfish in the same way, only thinking of what "she" should do, without thinking of the havoc wreaked on all lives,) but if you read through other posts of mine- like to
ex-ws's like hopeful person, jen brown, or kily, you will see that I am very kind - because I can tell they so desperately want to turn their lives around- and because I am guilty of making mistakes in my life, so why judge them for past mistakes? But in this case, I don't see twilight as caring about all that- and she herself said I have no idea what she feels and doesn't- she is right, but like I said, this is a marriage BUILDERS forum.

adgirl, I am mistaken. You did mean it. Yes you have a right to be emotional. That is why I said it. But you know what....she just had a baby. She is emotional. No matter what mess it is, it sounds like only one person is taking the responsibilty to this....her. She is having to take him to court for cs. He started a realtionship with this child, then deserted the child. How else can she see it? I on the other hand know my xmm will have no contact and I've already accepted that. That does not mean when I'm up in the middle of the night and have to go to work the next day and get my twins ready for daycare that I won't be mad at xmm too. But your right...this is the MB board. That is why I told her to email me and I would give her other websites. BTW....I don't think your mean or anything. I just think your hurt and angry and this girl is not want you wanted to read about on your board.

Regarding "Abandonment of the OC" issues...

I'm not sure I agree with that as much as I am forced to consider the entire FAMILY that the WS abandoned in order to have the affair in the first place!

In order to rebuild the family the WS needs to get back to basics and fix what went wrong before the OP ever came into the picture. The OP is not supposed to be in the picture!

The only thing that keeps OPs in the picture is the OC--IF the recovering couple can handle it.

What OPs can't control, they have to let go. I think using the word abandonment is like trying to say that the OC is entitled to the same emotional support as the WSs original family and I fundamentally disagree with that.

In order to rebuild the marriage, the WS is forced to abandon the affair and if the OP insists on having emotional rights because suddenly there is a child, it's unhealthy for the OP AND the child. You can't force someone to be emotionally attached to your baby! And why would you even want to? I kind of think that is more abusive than the actual affair. Bringing a child into the world through an affair might as well be considered child abuse in itself!

If we are misusing God's original intent for sex, then we are abusing our bodies and others' bodies as well as the innocent children who are conceived in this manner.

You're free and single. There are a few good men in the world who would embrace you and your child. Now your job is to raise your kid and hopefully a really good man will come into your life who is open to that challenge.

If the MM is hiding behind his wife and abandoning your child, as you described, then that's on you honey, as Dr.Laura would say, you picked him! This is who you have chosen to father your child... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

[ September 11, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]

BTDT, You have a way with words!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> since I was criticized and just called emotional for my "chastising" I really appreciate you saying my feelings so eloquently.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
[QB]Regarding "Abandonment of the OC" issues...

!

In order to rebuild the marriage, the WS is forced to abandon the affair and if the OP insists on having emotional rights because suddenly there is a child, it's unhealthy for the OP AND the child. You can't force someone to be emotionally attached to your baby! And why would you even want to? I kind of think that is more abusive than the actual affair. Bringing a child into the world through an affair might as well be considered child abuse in itself!

I agree with part of what you say. I feel 100% why push something on someone who is non emotional over the child. That is abusive. Bringing any child into this world weather it be through a single fling or affair or what ever is not abuse. I am a hard working women I am already raising twins from previous marriage I've done it all. I take good care of my kids and I don't need xmm to help with the emotional end. I can do that just fine. It took two to get the child where it is though. I don't care what the circumstances are. It took two. I agree though a mm does not have to be involved. Who would want someone raising there kids that can't even take responsiblity for there own actions? I made a huge mistake but owned up to it. For some reason a child was put in my care and all I know is I have to do the right thing. If that means that MM gets a swift kick in the butt from his wife if he ever tells her, I'm sorry. I'm the one taking the responsibility for the child.
Also, I agree with with what what was said by someone earlier about joint custody. I don't think I could handle someone women who is not invovled but only by being married to the father telling what is what and it will be done. My xh would never have his wife do that and I would never handle that with any father of my kids no matter the circumstances that it happened. The first and most important thing is the welfare of the child. If the xmm must see the child it has to be on mutual grounds with mutual resolution. It's only common sense that if xmm man is involved so is his w. But not be the leader of the child. How hard for everyone involved. I guess I'm glad my xmm has chose not to be emotionally involved. Makes it easier all the way around. I think.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by adgirl48:
BTDT, You have a way with words!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> since I was criticized and just called emotional for my "chastising" I really appreciate you saying my feelings so eloquently.<hr /></blockquote>adgirl, I was not chastising you. Trust me I have emotions going through my every harmone right now. I did not put you down at all I don't think and if you took it that way I'm sorry.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by needtomoveon:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by adgirl48:
BTDT, You have a way with words!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> since I was criticized and just called emotional for my "chastising" I really appreciate you saying my feelings so eloquently.<hr /></blockquote>adgirl, I was not chastising you. Trust me I have emotions going through my every harmone right now. I did not put you down at all I don't think and if you took it that way I'm sorry.<hr /></blockquote>I was talking more about josh's mom, except the emotional part- and that kind of came across wrong..but I didn't feel you put me down.

[ September 11, 2003, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]

Also, I agree with with what what was said by someone earlier about joint custody. I don't think I could handle someone women who is not invovled but only by being married to the father telling what is what and it will be done

But the wife is not just "some woman"- the wife is innocent as far as the affair goes, just like the OC. Now in my circumstances, I knew that I had to either accept the OC and being forever involved and forever reminded of the affair or I had to choose not to. I knew I couldn't choose to do it, then hold it against ex-WH for the rest of his life. So I chose to, but my ex chose to go to his OC instead and drop the marriage. And the OW admitted to me that she wanted my ex because of the baby. She needed a daddy for her little girl and she did not care about my needs. This is the case of OW that it just would not have worked. Well, and my ex's addiction to porn that I just found out about AFTER the divorce kind of put a kink in plans too.

But the wife is not just "some woman"- the wife is innocent as far as the affair goes, just like the OC. Now in my circumstances, I knew that I had to either accept the OC and being forever involved and forever reminded of the affair or I had to choose not to. I knew I couldn't choose to do it, then hold it against ex-WH for the rest of his life. So I chose to, but my ex chose to go to his OC instead and drop the marriage. And the OW admitted to me that she wanted my ex because of the baby. She needed a daddy for her little girl and she did not care about my needs. This is the case of OW that it just would not have worked. Well, and my ex's addiction to porn that I just found out about AFTER the divorce kind of put a kink in plans too.

adgirl, I know what your saying. It's not like he left you married someone had a child left her then came back to you. OR something like that. I'm just saying that I've seen a lot of post where the wife has taken full charge of the decissions and dealing with the xow. I don't think it's all that right. Because of the actions of the mm as well as the ow this child is here. It's still the same as if my x got remarried and the his wife wanted to make all the decisions. It's my child. I do feel that the w should be apart of the childs life and all if part of the mm, but how would you like the ow if married to your xh coming and telling you what to do with your kids? Not one w would stand for that. Did that make sense? I hope so. I just think that because of the fact that the bw is still married to uh they have taken charge of the situation and made all the choices. I'd never ever answer to the w of my xmm. Not in a million years. I can't stand her, but if xmm chose to have a life with this child and his wife is involved, I'd never do anything to turn that away. At least his father would be a part of his life. I don't know if that made sense, and hopefully no offensive, but that is how I look at it.

I'm just saying that I've seen a lot of post where the wife has taken full charge of the decissions and dealing with the xow. I don't think it's all that right. Because of the actions of the mm as well as the ow this child is here. It's still the same as if my x got remarried and the his wife wanted to make all the decisions. It's my child. I do feel that the w should be apart of the childs life and all if part of the mm, but how would you like the ow if married to your xh coming and telling you what to do with your kids?

I am not offended, but we may have to agree to disagree because I am totally on the other end of this spectrum. Your question, how would you like the OW to tell me what to do with my kids, is comparing apples to oranges. The original W did not ask for OW to be brought into the situation, or the OC. In my situation, ex-WH would have had to go NC with OW and allowed me to handle the visitation pickups. This is bc NC would HAVE to be established between OW and ex-WH for marriage to work out. I find this an extremely difficult situation and admire anyone who has done it and done it well. I know I would have loved and cared for the OC because it isn't OC's fault, but I don't know how I would have done it. IT would have been hard. The W should not make ALL the decisions- the BW and WH should use the POJA to see what is best. And work on the marriage first.

adgirl, I can agree with you to agree to disagree. I guess you can I'm use to taking control and I use that word control of my kids. My kids mean everything to me and feel like it's up to ME to make sure they are taken care of. I am also use to it. Good example. Xh sees his kids and all, but they don't come first. In Jan., both my kids had there tonsiels and adnoids out on the same day. He took the day off that they had surgery and that was it. I took a week and a half off because they could not go back to day care until then. I'm just use to it. But adgirl, I can agree to disagree with you and still respect your feelings.

I think we are just thinking on different sides or levels. I am not doubting that you are taking care of your kids and that you want to take care of your kids. What I AM saying is that I would have never tried to replace OW in OC's life, or be their "mother" unless the OW chose to leave the situation (see my signature- she chose to give up her 1st son except every other weekend). BUT I was the wife first, and anything my ex-WH would have negotiated with OW, would have been with me involved too. Which is why I am somewhat relieved it did not work out, because I think this particular OW would have made that difficult. I don't think from talking to her that she is evil, but merely childish, stupid and lonely.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by needtomoveon:

I agree with part of what you say. I feel 100% why push something on someone who is non emotional over the child. That is abusive. Bringing any child into this world weather it be through a single fling or affair or what ever is not abuse. I am a hard working women I am already raising twins from previous marriage I've done it all. I take good care of my kids and I don't need xmm to help with the emotional end. I can do that just fine. It took two to get the child where it is though. I don't care what the circumstances are. It took two. I agree though a mm does not have to be involved. Who would want someone raising there kids that can't even take responsiblity for there own actions? I made a huge mistake but owned up to it. For some reason a child was put in my care and all I know is I have to do the right thing. If that means that MM gets a swift kick in the butt from his wife if he ever tells her, I'm sorry. I'm the one taking the responsibility for the child...
<hr /></blockquote>I hear what you are saying. I believe all single parents are hard workers, it's a given. Maybe unplanned pregnancy is not a direct form of abuse like if you hit your child or something, of course I don't mean that. I mean that in the mental struggle of all the tough decisions once the consequences hit, you have no idea what problems you are causing for the OC--simply by giving birth and knowing that the xMM won't be involved...

In a perfect world, the cheaters would own up to their lying and mistakes, and the BS would forgive and love the WS who would give up all their cheating ways. In a perfect world, the xOP would not make demands that are totally unreasonable. Heck, the cheater couldn't give 100% to their own family, how would an OP hope to expect whatever is left? A person who cheats is being completely selfish in that moment...

So maybe it is not directly abusing a child but indirectly I have to stick to my point that it is.

How do *I* know? My OC is now 20 years old. I am also a mom of 8-year old twins. I also raised my OC for 10 years as a single parent before I got married. I notice distinct differences in my children's demeanor between being raised in an intact family and as a single mom with all the A issues. All kids are different so I can only tell you what I have experienced being that my experience is pretty well-rounded. (In other words, I'm old!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ September 12, 2003, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> (In other words, I'm old!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> [/QB]<hr /></blockquote>I won't go there........about my age. I never thought I'd ever be having kids at this age....I was done (so I thought) after my twins. I see what your saying too. I do think like you said it has to do with cirucmstances. Although my kids do see there dad and we did not split up over a affair, my kids are much better off than when we lived together. It just was not good. He (xh and I) were on two different pages and have two different ideas about life....well he had no idea, but that is besides that point. Even my x says the kids are doing much better than when we lived together. But that is another story for another day.....I do understand what you are saying though totally. So are you the bs? ow? both?

twilight,

Are you NG on GB, as another poster suggested? I feel for your situation, I really do, but there is little need for understanding on what has happened here (if you are NG).

You slept with xMM and it brought on labor. All negotiations before that were based on W's belief that the affair was over and she could handle contact and visitiation. By falling into bed together, again, all bets were off. You signed the No Contact letter yourself when you slept with him in an attempt to bring him back into your life.

He wants his marriage, obviously. His wife wants the marriage, obviously. You want him. Odd man out. I am so sorry you are in this position. Perhaps if you can truly disentangle yourself emotionally and it becomes clear someplace down the road that you are not a threat to the marriage, then perhaps xMM and his W will be able to renegotiate contact. Perhaps.

I truly do wish you and your sweet baby well.