Marriage Builders
Posted By: CheerfulLittleOne Dr. Phil - 11/19/04 12:29 AM
Does anyone have an opinion on Dr. Phil's recommendation that Ed have contact with his OC?
Posted By: Mitzi Re: Dr. Phil - 11/19/04 12:38 AM
I agree with Dr. Phil. Ed is the father and it is not the child's fault. It didn't ask to be brought into this situation.

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Posted By: whatif? Re: Dr. Phil - 11/19/04 12:49 AM
I know i am of the minority on this board which is why I rarely post but i beleive what dr phil said is 100% correct, he should be a father to the child
Posted By: gemini1 Re: Dr. Phil - 11/19/04 01:19 AM
whatif you really should post more.
How's it going? Nice to see you here as I was talking about you in another MB area that is secured.

I think it is absoloutly an enormous assumption to think that a bs could possibly come to terms with "mothering" an other womans child....especially the way these kids come about.

To do so fosters pain, resentment, fear of H coming together with ow again...especially a concern when the first thing to sever an affair is no contact.

Don't forget....with an oc...contact metaphorically is never done... CS increases come with about every change of the moon... so it is preposterous to think a bs can and will accept an oc....no matter how long they have been married.

It has been 4 long years for H and I, with the exception of Stacia, whatif (who never really gave us any info on her and her H), amy2, and pops and momof5, it never really mends the marriage to have contact...ever.
Reading here since 2000...very few succeeded in C.

We have had NC since early 2001.

Except for ow coming back for more cs (big as# trigger) we never think about it...honestly...much easier to heal and try to move on.

Harleys advice by phone counseling....

All oldies who tried are now divorced...or their H were still LYING about ow/oc.
Whatif....how about a lengthly update? Perhaps you can help?

Why be afraid? Over 4 years for you too, right?

I'll watch,,,, I need to leave for good now as staying here is no longer good for my recovery...

So long MB and friends...need to move on....no longer recognize anyone here.....except for jenny.....

Best blessings and thanks..I'll check this thread for whatif's reply.

whatif, you know I think Dr. Phil is a big blow bag, dontcha? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I followed his crap during my H's A and according to his rules shoulda left b4 I knew what was up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Oh! Well.
Bless all my friends...good wine ,good love, and goodwill to all.
My Mom has ALS (lou gehrigs)and it's taking all my time................................

Hey I'm cookin the bird this year and after almost 31 years with H...well some days I could crack him upside the head.....most days...love love love..
Peace....Imagine....John Lennon....Bye...BYE ~sniff~~~
Debi
Posted By: Mitzi Re: Dr. Phil - 11/19/04 02:42 AM
gemini,

The child should be without it's father?? How fair is that to a baby that didn't ask for it's mother to get pregnant by a man married to someone else.

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Posted By: gardenbunny Re: Dr. Phil - 11/19/04 03:07 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mitzi:
<strong> gemini,

The child should be without it's father?? How fair is that to a baby that didn't ask for it's mother to get pregnant by a man married to someone else.

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A child without a father? Yes it's been done. And that is the choice a woman makes, when she decides to have the baby of a married man.

If a woman wants a father for her baby, she should seek out a fully available man.
Posted By: entwifej Re: Dr. Phil - 11/19/04 05:49 AM
I know I am in the minority....but so far so good for us having contact. I firmly believe that my H fathered a child and he should step up to the plate and be a FATHER.
I love my OC like my own. She is a wonderful little girl. It's been rough at times and yes..H and I have had arguments over boundary issues. But it can be done.
I have forgiven my H and OC. (though she does tend to get on my nerves at times) If I can't move past this and get on with MY life, what does that say about me as a christian and a role model for my children? I am very open about my situation. I have pics of OC on my desk right along with my children. If people ask if they are my children I say yes.
If they push....I'm upfront about the situation. Not to air my dirty laundry but why hide it? OC is a part of my life now. A part of my FAMILY.
Just the other night my H made the comment about OW being a "whore". I asked him, "and what does that make you?".
There is enough of the blame pie to go around. Everyone gets a slice, eats it, and goes on. Life is too short. I want to be happy. I want to love my husband and ALL my children.
ent
Posted By: Mitzi Re: Dr. Phil - 11/19/04 12:31 PM
Gardenbunny,

Yes, I understand about kids not having fathers. My kids have a father that lived with them for 10 years and will not acknowledge them. Doesn't even act at all like they are his.

And I agree, the OW made the wrong choice, as did D23b. But just because it has been done before, does that make it right? If my H had an affair and got a woman pregnant, I would have no respect for him if he didn't have contact with the child.

It takes a strong woman to be accepting of the OC, and I think if both M23b and D23B work really hard, mom is strong enough to do just that!

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Posted By: star*fish Re: Dr. Phil - 11/19/04 02:20 PM
Mitzi,

Is this a choice you've had to make? I also "prefer" that all children have fathers, and in an ideal world..they would. In an ideal world, fathers would be faithful and only have their children when they can live with the mothers of those children. But the world isn't perfect and sometimes, NC truly is the best choice. Why? Because oftentimes the conflict created by these situations is so traumatic on the existing family and children, that contact destroys even more lives and impacts even more children. Some people can manage contact successfully...and when they can, I think it's wonderful...but there are some really destructive OWs out there that make this situation untenable and impossible for the primary relationship. Your statement is a generalization...and a desctructive one for some of the ladies here who have had to choose differently. The choice to go to NC is not done out of revenge, or hate for a child...but out of the desperation of trying to save their own families and keep their own children safe from the chaos created in these situations. To make a blanket statement that it is always the right thing without intimately understanding how damaging these situations can be...is disrespectful and narrow minded. Live this experience, then come and tell folks how to handle it. You might be one of the lucky ones who can preserve your marriage, and provide comfort for this innocent child...but then you might also be unlucky enough to have a situation that rips your life to shreds with a stalking OW who uses that child to manipulate and keep your family in pain and turmoil to the point where there are no longer a good choice available. No one wants to penalize a child....but sometimes that's the only way to end the chaos and protect your own children.
Posted By: LynnG Re: Dr. Phil - 11/19/04 04:42 PM
I totally and 100% disagree with Dr. Phil.

I believe strongly that my childrens happiness and our future would not be compromised by the presence of a mistake. I was not going to subject my children, at young ages to he nasty reality of the cold harsh world. My husband made a mistake, no need to disrupt our family and feelings for the wishes/needs of one. My children were innocent too.

As for Dr. Phil? He can be a bit of a know it all. Heck he is all in support of the ow who was teaching her children to lie about the MM/dad in court; she was caught and they took the children away from this deranged psychopath. And Dr. Phil feels sorry for HER? That pretty much sums up how stupid he can be.

So I would go toe to toe with him on the contact issue. My children and their needs and wishes superecede those of the oc. MY wishes and needs supercede the needs/wishes of oc. If my husband wanted contact with the oc, he would have lost is wife and kids on a day to day basis. He and the ow created that environement for oc to grow up in, not me and not our children.
Posted By: Nerlycrzy Re: Dr. Phil - 11/19/04 04:46 PM
Mitzi posted: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If my H had an affair and got a woman pregnant, I would have no respect for him if he didn't have contact with the child.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ohhh,,ok. So you don't actually have an OC in your life. This is the way you think you would feel IF you were in this situation.

Well, we all know what happens to those noble preconceived notions when we are actually forced to walk in those shoes...
Posted By: ohbratti1 Re: Dr. Phil - 11/19/04 05:36 PM
I’ve answered the father/OC question a few times in my 4 years here….and my opinion really hasn’t changed. I’m all for the ideals, but I have to deal in reality. Maybe the world will change in my lifetime and maybe it won’t. In the meantime, I have an obligation to prepare my child for adulthood. I have to do that with whatever I have at my disposal. I have to act. I have to teach. I have to nurture. I have to live my life. Rarely do I wonder about the fairness of it all. The bottom line? I KNEW when I chose to keep my child that his father was otherwise committed. I also KNEW that it was a gamble. I KNEW what the potential outcomes could be. So, to cry about the unfairness of a situation that I had a hand in creating, is so pointless and unhealthy for me. I live my life by accountability. I accept and take full responsibility for whatever I played any part of, and move on. No matter what. I cannot sit here and point the finger at someone else for not doing what is right, when I KNEW that this could be the result and moved forward anyway.

Contact or no contact depends on the abilities of the adults, to cope with a very hard situation. Some folks can and some can’t. End of story. Who am I to tell anyone what their limits are? What do I do? Tell them to suck it up ‘cause it’s the right thing to do? At what expense to them? When does their happiness, sanity, and overall psychological health become important? What right do I have to ask someone else to sacrifice their happiness for the sake of MY child (referring to BS)? Sorry guys, but I knew the score. I made a FULLY informed decision and I knew there would be consequences. I knew the world would not bend to my wishes. I am but one woman. How selfish would it be for be to expect or DEMAND that someone else set aside what they want and need (again, referring to BS), just to acquiesce to me and fulfill my desires for my son to have his father. I do not point a finger at or place blame on the BS for doing what she needs to do to protect herself, her marriage and her family. Those are HER responsibilities and she has every right. Jonas (OC) is MY responsibility. As for xMM, he has to live with his decisions…right or wrong, good or bad.

I am human and I have my limits….just like EVERYONE else. What one can handle, another may not be able to. It doesn’t make them a bad person and it doesn’t make them wrong. So, knowing that xMM may or may not play a role in my son’s life, I had my baby and am enjoying every moment with a, now 4 years old, wonderful little boy. In an ideal world, his father would be here to help raise him and be a bigger part of his life. But in REALITY, mommy’s here, doing everything she can to raise him right and give him a good life. I don’t have time or desire to dwell on whether it’s fair or not. It gives me heartburn. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I hope I didn't sound harsh. I've been around the block a few times with this one and have developed a no-nonsense, matter of fact attitude about it. It is what it is. (shrugging shoulders)

OB1
Posted By: giovanna123 Re: Dr. Phil - 11/19/04 05:38 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My children and their needs and wishes superecede those of the oc. MY wishes and needs supercede the needs/wishes of oc. If my husband wanted contact with the oc, he would have lost is wife and kids on a day to day basis. He and the ow created that environement for oc to grow up in, not me and not our children. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES LYNN-- THIS IS THE DILLEMA FOR xMM AND xBS.... Am I as the BW or H as the xMM, supposed to now bow out of our family of 5-- for one OC?? No life is more important in God's eyes-- I get that-- and EVERY child deserves a father-- I AGREE-- but--

What is my husband (or me) to do--- decide FOR THE OC's SAKE- to expose this to our children and ruin my boys' expectations and role model view of their father, break their hearts and spirits-- show them by example of dad- what to do when they get older-- and BREAK up the family.. ALL THIS cause OC needs a father? I feel VERY strongly based on LOTS AND LOTS of help and information, that I MUST PROTECT MY CHILDREN from this Springer show unfolding.

So-- what it comes down to for the MM is this--- he must either "trade" a family of 5 that has existed for years, and in fact he HURT BAD, but LOVES AND WANTS like h*ll... FOR OC'S SAKE... OR

have NO CONTACT with OC to protect HIMSELF, his wife and CHILDREN from further irreparable harm. Having contact means years and years of shame for my children and me, problems, tears, hurt, etc... and guess what- many many marriages can survive the long healing process of infidelity-- but a CHILD involved- breaks the camels back more times than not, if there is contact. I cannot and will not take that risk.

Now, on the "send H on his way- this is his fault" yadda yadda crap.. WELL- sorry I dont want to give up my H for OC's sake. I am happy now and we are living our life and God has forgiven H and so must I. I want him still and it works for me and my family.

THEREFORE OC cannot have a father. Its hard, it sucks, its horrid ALL- including the innocent ones involved like my kids and OC. Frankly, my husband doesn't know OC because at this point in his life- the child means very little to him when compared to losing OC or losing W and children he is raising already. Hard to face.

PUBLIC SERVICE MESSAGE.... WEAR CONDOMS.
Posted By: giovanna123 Re: Dr. Phil - 11/19/04 05:45 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell them to suck it up ‘cause it’s the right thing to do? At what expense to them? When does their happiness, sanity, and overall psychological health become important? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES, that is what the STOW are all crying for us to do!! AMAZING how they can SLEEP WITH A MM AND CREATE A LIFE FROM THAT-- and THEN cry for US to suck it up now that there is a child? I mean-- lets just "DROP IT" when it comes to how unbelievably wrong and immature the OW and MM acts as LONG AS THEIR hearts desire.. but WE MUST BE BETTER all NOW and SUPER DUPER MATURE AND ALL LOVING CREATURES? (the BS)... ??? HUH???? MAKES NO SENSE.

I mean...babies are precious, yes, but so is my life and my childrens' lives---OW should have KNOWN HER LIFE WAS PRECIOUS TOO, and THEREFORE, not allow a MM to sleep w/her - under any circumstance or PROMISE!!!

everyone goes to separate corners and lick wounds now.. and move on

obratti-- you are doing just that-- and for your past you will be forgiven-- and for your future- you and your child will do great with this understanding! KUDOS TO YOU.

<small>[ November 19, 2004, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: giovanna123 ]</small>
Posted By: tigger4jdt Re: Dr. Phil - 11/20/04 06:16 AM
The fact of the matter is, as has been said too many times to count, EACH SITUATION IS UNIQUE!!!! You cannot tell everyone that it is the "right" thing to do, especially when in certain cases it could be the furthest thing from "right"! There are some cases, like mine, where if the xOM/MM knew of the OC there would never be peace, and possibly harm could come to any of my family members. Of course, there are some here who have looked down on my situation, as if I were the one causing the harm by not telling. All I have to say to that, and this has been said too many times to count as well, don't judge what you haven't experienced personally. It's not a fun thing to fear for your life or that of your H, especially when you can't prove that this psycho person is stalking you!

In some cases, contact has worked, in some, it has not worked. You need to truly examine what you, your M, and your family can handle and make an educated decision. You are the only one who has to live with that choice, and how it affects you personally.

I have recently begun posting again to this forum, but also agree with Gem, in that this board HAS changed, and at times pulls me down from my recovery. All this talk about being mature adults, and the majority of the posters here are trying to get the most painful digs into eachother, no matter WHAT "title" in this painful situation you wear. No wonder some only come and post a couple times, and then never come back. I liked it when we were actually trying to help others with the MB principles, instead of our own gut feelings that are coming from pain! Let's get back to that type of help and stop the judgemental crap!

So, do I agree with the statement that no matter what, the WH should ALWAYS have contact with the OC? No, it should ALWAYS be a case to case basis, and the decision made between the H and W! As OB1 said, she knew what she was doing when she decided to keep Jonas, and she is a big girl and can handle her choice. If the xOW has a problem with the H and W choosing to have NC, then she needs to suck it up and go on with her life! I do, however, believe that the WH SHOULD pay CS, but with the children of the M taken into account(especially if said kids were there FIRST!). That, in many cases, is what is best for the OC and the children of the M. Why shuffle the OC back and forth for the rest of his/her life, sometimes ending up hating the children of the M because they have their Mommy and Daddy, where the OC only has Daddy every other weekend, and 6 weeks during the summer. No matter what choice is made, unfortunately the children will end up hurt in one way or the other.

Ok, now stepping down from my soap box. Hope if you've read this far, I have made sense.

Tigger
Posted By: Gofigure Re: Dr. Phil - 11/20/04 06:21 AM
Hello All,

I disagree with Dr. Phil as well,now, based on my experience with my own situation, and what I have been thru. Yes OC is innocent, but if OW was really all that concerned about what kind of father her child would have, she wouldn't of gotten pregnant by a MM who is not fully available for the job, as earlier post said....by no means am I taking the MM off the hook for his role in this.

A little story...my H has had contact with OC for 5 years....mind u I said, my H, not me....he chose to deal with the situation on his own (against my wishes)...allowing the OW to run the show so to speak & and because OW didn't want me around OC...I of course said to my H, this is your child, and u mean to tell me that as your wife, I am not suppose to be involved, but u want our kids to meet...NOT!!!!! If I am not to meet OW & OC before hand, then I am dam sure not dragging my children into this. (I met OC when she was about 9 mths old,1 time only, only because my H picked her up from her grandmothers house and brought her to me...OW was furious when she found out.) Finally after many arguments and a whole lot of stress, I said u know what, since u (H) don't want me to meet OC and be a part of this situation, and OW doesn't want me to meet OC, then I don't want to be reminded about OC, or hear anything about it...as far as I am concerned right now, it doesn't exist...and that was that. Well later found out that the reason why H didn't want me to have contact with OW was because he was still messing around with her. Apparently, her demands got bigger and bigger, and my H came to me and confessed everything about continuing A with OW...he ended it by saying that he knows that he must severe all ties with OW & OC...he said he feels bad about the OC, but, he is doing this for his own sanity ( not for me ) because he is the one who created this mess in the first place.

Now, finally, I guess we will be able to work on our marriage...it has been 5 years of a living hell...even though I didn't want to be involved, OW made sure she dug the knife deeper every chance she got harrassing me, calling me at work ( don't ask how she got my number...she made it her business to know everything about me...and I blame my H for that),oh so many trifling things she put me and my family thru...I don't think u all could handle some of the things I could tell u that she has done to disrespect me, my H, and my marriage. My H finally realized on his own that he could not continue to live this double life...so he made the decision. Now I thought to myself, the OC doesn't deserve this, but I am keeping my mouth shut because this is H decision, and I am not going to be the one to tell him that he should do otherwise, because as u can see, it didn't work, and continuing an A w/OW didn't help the situation. It won't work. Period. If he thinks he is still going to be married to me, and continue his charade, I am not going to deal with that anymore, now that I know the truth, and I told my H that. He said he is going to legally make NC his decision. That's that.

So u see, I can say that he, my H, tried to be a part of OC's life, however, the demands of the OW were just to much for MR. HAVE HIS CAKE AND EAT IT TOO, finally!!!! I am glad that he alone, came to this decision, without anymore input from me. Sometimes u have to let people figure things out on their own to in order to get to the place they need to be. My H has his own guilt and feelings to deal with regarding his deception to our marriage.

Take care all.
Posted By: mshermi Re: Dr. Phil - 11/20/04 06:28 AM
Every vengeful, angry OW should read Obratti's response over and over until it makes sense.

Obratti your a class act! And I mean that. What a smart woman you are.

Imagine being so pissed at your OC dad, that you that poor little guy cry into his cell phone.

I wish they could all be like you.
Posted By: Gofigure Re: Dr. Phil - 11/20/04 06:32 AM
Hello Ohbratti,

I agree with post above, u r a class act...u have taken ownership of your situation.

Wish more OW were like u...wish there were no OW's , but such is life (just a joke, but oh so true!). We all need to move on.

Good Luck Ohbratti, and take care of Jonas.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Dr. Phil - 11/20/04 05:04 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by giovanna123:

PUBLIC SERVICE MESSAGE.... WEAR CONDOMS. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I laughed soooo HARD when I read this... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You're a pistol!!!

Pep
Posted By: Mitzi Re: Dr. Phil - 11/20/04 03:09 PM
Wow...I didn't realize that I'm disrespectful or narrow minded! Seriously, if you knew me, you would know that I'm not.

No, I haven't had to deal with this type of situation and I sympathize with all of you that have. But I still stand by MY OPINION. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind or condemn any of you ladies if that's not what you choose. It is just my opinion...what I feel could be done and be good for all involved.

And nor do I have any "noble preconceived notions" about what I "think" I would do. My first marriage ended when my H had an affair and decided to leave. I wanted the marriage in tact, no matter what. Even if it meant knowing I would be getting my butt kicked (literally) by that man for the rest of my life. If I endured abuse for the sake of my marriage, I know I would have done anything else to keep my marriage. But he chose not to work on anything.

So, if you were offended by my opinion, I apologize.

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Posted By: needtomoveon Re: Dr. Phil - 11/20/04 04:09 PM
Mitzi, not to sound harsh or anything, but if your xh kicked your butt, I'd say your better off without him.......No one should be abused.

Obratti, I agree with you. It may hurt and it may be a process, but it's doable. I know what my responsiblities are with my children and I take care of them. It's my job to make sure they grow up and be responsbile and I will deal with the problem at hand when the time is right in a positive way that will be the less hurtful to my daughter and put my own feelings aside. It has to be done this way for my child's sake. Some of you will probally bash me for my next statement but there are times that I look at my daughter and say well xmm this is your lost, (as for the love I have for her) I'm just being honest, but for the most part we don't even consider xmm in the picture. As Obratti said....it's something he has to deal with. Not me and we ALL do what is best for our own situations. The xmm bw ow etc. WE ALL DO.
Posted By: UNSure919400 Re: Dr. Phil - 11/20/04 04:11 PM
Well said OB1. I believe in contact only if ALL adults involved can be civil and respect the situation. If not it will not work and inflict more pain on ALL the children involved in the end. I can't say H and I never think about OC he does and wishes the situation was different. But you can't control peoples actions heck once again I'm faced with $1200 worth of damage to the new car I just brought. Well, at least this time she's including H's SUV $300 to replace his window. lol Trying to joke about a crazy situation. I've finally said enough and will call the police the next time. I've let this go too long. We are also in the process of installing a security system and a gate on the driveway which sucks to me. Two more expenses we do not need but if you are crazy enough or bold enough to come in our driveway on and off for 4 years to damage vehicles it has to stop.

Glad to hear Jonas is doing well. Chi Chi is now 4 too and growing like a weed. Only in height though the girl is still only 32 pounds. Trying to fatten her up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> exOW never responded to the care package or request to send clothing sizes so I'm leaving it up to H to decide what he's going to do this year. Nice to hear from you I hope all is well with you and your boyfriend.

Tee
Posted By: Mitzi Re: Dr. Phil - 11/20/04 04:56 PM
needtomoveon,

Doesn't sound harsh to me at all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

We've been spearated/divorced for almost 5 years. I remarried in 2002. Best thing that ever happened to me!

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Posted By: star*fish Re: Dr. Phil - 11/21/04 06:33 AM
mitzi,

No, I haven't had to deal with this type of situation and I sympathize with all of you that have. But I still stand by MY OPINION.

You're right of course, that each of us is entitled to an opinion. When any of us express that opinion on an open forum..the result is often that folks will challenge that opinion. Create opportunities for you to examine it, stretch it...walk in someone else's shoes. That is the way the board works. And especially if it's a situation where it challenges the sensibilities of ladies directly involved...expect some vehement responses to black and white thinking.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind or condemn any of you ladies if that's not what you choose. It is just my opinion...what I feel could be done and be good for all involved.

But isn't "the good" a subjective thing when you look at the whole picture? Does "all involved" include for instance the previous children of the primary relationships? What if for instance, those children are traumatized by contact? What if contact with the OW (who will always be the mother) traumatize the family and threaten to rip it apart? What's "good" for one person, simply may not be "good" for another or for the "many"...that is the part of your opinion that was being challenged.

And nor do I have any "noble preconceived notions" about what I "think" I would do.

Well I sure do. I think alot about the ideal vs. reality. I have lots of thoughts on what the noble thing to do would be....but I have enough experience in life to understand that nobility cannot always be my focus in life...sometimes, simply surviving and preserving the integrity of my life, the lives of my children and husband....must take precidence over even such lofty goals as nobility.

I tuck my littlest child to bed at night and while I tell him that he is safe and loved, I think to myself "all children should go to bed this way" and in my noblest heart....I wish deeply to reach out to all of them. I wish that the selfishness of adults would not compromise the safety of even one...but the truth is that one of the main purposes that marriage evolved around, was the protection and fostering of the children it created. Having children outside of that protective circle, compromises their ability to have that same opportunity. How sad that is, and yet...it is the reality of thoughtless acts that create such circumstance.
Posted By: Snowbelle Re: Dr. Phil - 11/21/04 06:48 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CheerfulLittleOne:
<strong> Does anyone have an opinion on Dr. Phil's recommendation that Ed have contact with his OC? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's not forget that this baby has about a 50/50 chance of being DT3's. OW, as you will recall, was furious when MT3 talked to OW's XBF and put together the pieces for him: OW had been telling BF the baby was conceived later than it was, to make him believe it couldn't possibly be his. And she was lying to DT3, too, saying it was over with BF when it wasn't and that, yes, when the baby was conceived, well, she was doing BOTH men. So it's 50-50.

I hope DT3 doesn't back off a paternity test when the baby is born.

~ Snow
Posted By: Stacia_Lee Re: Dr. Phil - 11/21/04 03:49 AM
I recorded both shows... Have them both saved in the DVR until I can get a dedicated tape to save them to...

The things that strike me about what Dr Phil said in regards to contact...
ONLY with your wife involved, do it above board with your WIFE!
Isn't this what we always tell newbies when they are considering Contact???
Contact should not be a hidden thing, it should only happen when the BS is in agreement to Contact.

I took Dr Phil to mean that it must be POJA'd.
The BS must be involved and must be reassured in all aspects of C.
He said that the relationship should be with the child, and any relationship with the OW must be ONLY as a co-parent across time.... ONLY A CO-Parent!
MOM and DAD must POJA this entire situation... but with what I read in DAD's face, I agree with MOM, until he comes out of the fog, he will never allow her to accept the child.
"HE" has always wanted a girl?? Why not THEY (DAD & MOM)always wanted a girl??? He seems so deep in the fog, he can only think of himself and HIS feelings. From the words he said, it seems to me that in his fogged up mind.. there is ONLY DAD.. NOT MOM and DAD....

I heard myself when MOM said, That's supposed to be MY girl. That sperm belongs to me! Those were MY OWN WORDS over 3 years ago!
Seeing DAD on the show, really made me think back. I thought back to the early days after Dday... and how Mr Lee acted... In so many aspects, they are similar.
It brought back many memories that I needed to revisit... many that helped me see how far WE have come since that time.

I pray that they are able to work through this.. no matter which way it goes...
The aftermath of an affair carries on and on and on... No matter if there is a D or not... The fact that there was an A will continue to haunt them both.. and obviously the children in the long run...

Prayers for MOM's father... and for each of them to find PEACE as they work towards a solution.

Stacia
Posted By: entwifej Re: Dr. Phil - 11/22/04 03:47 PM
! Let's get back to that type of help and stop the judgemental crap!

Ok, now stepping down from my soap box. Hope if you've read this far, I have made sense.


Can't have it both ways....judgment and soap boxes. Isnt' that what makes life interesting?

ent
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Dr. Phil - 11/22/04 09:04 PM
Unhappily and predictably, Ed has resumed his affair ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

and MT3B announced today that her father has just died. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

and Ed is with OW .... because Ed is only interested in Ed.

Pep
Posted By: needtomoveon Re: Dr. Phil - 11/23/04 05:24 AM
MT2B I am so sorry about your father and what all your dealing with right now. My prayers are with you.
Posted By: MichaelinDallas Re: Dr. Phil - 12/02/04 02:53 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gemini1:
<strong> I think it is absoloutly an enormous assumption to think that a bs could possibly come to terms with "mothering" an other womans child....especially the way these kids come about.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have noticed a distinct double standard here on MB with regards to OC. If a WH has on OC, NC seems to be the standard advice, and heaven forbid a WH wants to be a part of his childs life. But, when its a WW with an OC, I have never once heard someone advise NC with OC.

Why is it ok for a BW not to "mother" another womans child, but it is ok for a BH to have to "father" another mans child?
Michael
PS Gemini not picking on you, your post just represents the prevailing opinion here.
Posted By: Nerlycrzy Re: Dr. Phil - 12/02/04 03:08 PM
Sorry Michael, I don't remember....do you have contact with your OC or are you raising the OC from your FWW's affair? How is it working for you?
Posted By: star*fish Re: Dr. Phil - 12/02/04 03:46 PM
Michael,

I agree with you...there is a double standard...but not one created by MB...but rather nature. Men don't give birth to children. It's a fact of life. Mothers carry a child within their bodies and they are connected to those children in way that a man isn't. That doesn't mean strong bonds don't exist between fathers and children...but it is not just built right into the process, it has to be nurtured with time and energy. However, I have heard of several couples where the WW had the OC and it was given up for adoption or given to the father. It's far rarer as you suspect and has to do with gender and physiology as well as the emotional bonds that nature has designed to exist between mother and child.
Posted By: MichaelinDallas Re: Dr. Phil - 12/02/04 04:40 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong> I agree with you...there is a double standard...but not one created by MB...but rather nature. Men don't give birth to children. It's a fact of life. Mothers carry a child within their bodies and they are connected to those children in way that a man isn't. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Know what Starfish, I actually tend to agree with you. I do not argue that a special bond exists between most mothers and their child. But, the fact of the matter is some women do give up their children.....just as some men could not give up their child. I am not saying every WW with an OC should give it up, quite the contrary. I am just saying there needs to be an acceptance that there are men who could no more give up their child than a woman could. Is that not fair?

I agree with Dr Phil. I could not live without having contact with my child, no matter how he/she came into the world.

Nerlycrzy,
there is no OC in my soon to be over M. However, I faught for and won custody of my two children. My STBXW never really tried that hard. Obviously, there are women for whom that bond is not there, just as there are men who have a bond with their children that cannot be broken.
Michael

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>
Posted By: star*fish Re: Dr. Phil - 12/02/04 05:32 PM
Michael,

We agree. I have known many mothers who gave up their children and many fathers who couldn't. The reason we see less of it though...is not an MB phenonmenon though...I think it leans towards a natural one. Biochemically, pregnancy, childbirth, and breast feeding create high levels of Oxytocin in the bodies of women. That is the same chemical that's released during orgasm for both men and women....and is created naturally by nature to help mothers bond with babies even before they are born.

I have great respect for men who want to be part of their children's lives...but I also respect those who choose not to. It would not me MY choice, but I can easily understand the complexities of some of the situations here....where absolutes rarely apply. For instance....I can say with conviction that I would NEVER have an abortion. But I've never been faced with rape that resulted in pregnancy...so I can't say how I would respond to that, nor will I judge someone who has. The fathers who have created an OC...and who also have other children sometimes don't have the same clear choices that you or I have.

Do I believe that every child should be raised by loving parents including a father....yes yes and million times yes. No innocent child should have to suffer...so why do they? Because they are powerless to adults who control and contrive their lives. How sad that sometimes there are no good choices for a father to make once these wheels are set in motion. Don't believe me? Just read some of the accounts here where fathers have tried to remain connected to the OC and weren't allowed to or were manipulated for money or emotionally black mailed by angry OP. Absolutes fall apart in real life.

Let me give you scenario to choose from and see how absolute of a choice this seems to you...because this is a very typical situation on these boards:

You love your wife, but for whatever reason...weakness, opportunity, poor character, crisis...you had an affair which produced a child. You never wanted to be with this OW, but your wife and family are already distraught and devastated by the conflict created by this A and OC. You want to save your marriage and meet your responsibilities to your first children as well as the OC, but your wife is threatening to leave you. The legal complications are exhaustive. The financial burden is of legalities as well as CS are also creating huge stresses on the family. The children of your marriage are displaying varying problems with school/sleep/emotional outbursts or other issues as a result of the conflict in your home. The OP calls your house non-stop asking for money and begging you to come back. She uses your desire to see your child to resume the A. Your wife wants nothing to do with the child and is taking anti-depressants and about to have a nervous breakdown. She wants nothing to do with the OC or the OP. The children of your marriage are begging you not to leave the house because their mother is withdrawn and angry whenever you leave. If you allow your marriage to be destroyed because your wife will not accept this OC...you compromise the stability for your first children. If you forsake the OC...you compromise his/her opportunity to have an active father. Where is the good choice?

Yes, some folks are able to muddle through and find good solutions that can make this work...but that's when all the people involved...H, W, OW, OC and children from the marriage...are ALL healthy and functional. It doesn't always work that way. It only takes one person in all of this to be incapable of emotionally handling this situation to make the choices so difficult that finding a GOOD solution is elusive.

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>
Posted By: MichaelinDallas Re: Dr. Phil - 12/03/04 01:24 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong> Let me give you scenario to choose from and see how absolute of a choice this seems to you...because this is a very typical situation on these boards:

You love your wife, but for whatever reason...weakness, opportunity, poor character, crisis...you had an affair which produced a child. You never wanted to be with this OW, but your wife and family are already distraught and devastated by the conflict created by this A and OC. You want to save your marriage and meet your responsibilities to your first children as well as the OC, but your wife is threatening to leave you. The legal complications are exhaustive. The financial burden is of legalities as well as CS are also creating huge stresses on the family. The children of your marriage are displaying varying problems with school/sleep/emotional outbursts or other issues as a result of the conflict in your home. The OP calls your house non-stop asking for money and begging you to come back. She uses your desire to see your child to resume the A. Your wife wants nothing to do with the child and is taking anti-depressants and about to have a nervous breakdown. She wants nothing to do with the OC or the OP. The children of your marriage are begging you not to leave the house because their mother is withdrawn and angry whenever you leave. If you allow your marriage to be destroyed because your wife will not accept this OC...you compromise the stability for your first children. If you forsake the OC...you compromise his/her opportunity to have an active father. Where is the good choice?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Starfish,
again, I don't disagree with anything you say. There are no absolutes in life. But let me give you and example of the attitude that I pick up here. Imagine this scenario.

You love your husband, but through a mistake, circumstance, weakness, or whatever reason, you had an affair. You never really wanted to be with this OM, you would rather fix your marriage. However, your affair resulted in your having a child with the OM. You can't really afford another child, the children you have with your husband have already maxed out your finances. The OM knows about the child, and is insisting on being a part of it's life. You children are resentful toward the OC, knowing it's part of what is making the environment in your house so stressful and making their father so unhappy. Your husband, though he has tried, cannot accept the OC in his life. Will you allow your marriage to be destroyed to keep this OC, even though it will reek even more financial and emotional hardship on the children you already had with your husband? On the other hand, if you foresake the OC, either giving it up for adoption or to the father, you take away his/her chance to have a relationship with you. Where is the choice here?

The difference between your scenario and mine is that I have never once, never on the MB forum, heard anyone recommend that the best course of action in this case would be to give up the OC and have NC. But I have heard many times, that the best thing for a WH to do is to have no contact with his child.

Sorry, but that's how I see it. Again, one size does not fit all. There are no abolutes here. I am just saying that there is a distinct attitude here and in other places that a BH should take one for the team and accept an OC to save the marriage, but that a BW need not do the same.
Michael
Posted By: LynnG Re: Dr. Phil - 12/03/04 02:04 AM
I think in the case of the wife who has the baby, and it is tearing her marriage and her existing children apart, she would have to consider giving the child up. If she chooses the oc over the marriage and the children from it, she would be putting the needs of one above all others. This is where a good therapist is necessary. This is where the hard decisions are made. It isn't made overnight, or in a flash. But lets face it, everyone gets hurt when two people do this. Everyone gets a piece of the hurt pie. OC included.

To many people try to foster the notion that "whats best for the children" when what they are saying is "what's best for oc"

I read, recently, where an ow actually thinks it is OK if the children of the marriage are upset, hurt, angry, etc., cause they will get over it????? What kind of monster would ever even think that way? Her assumption was based on the fact that people go through trauma regularly and recover, so those kids can go through it and they will recover???? That was one of the most deluded statements I have ever read. Absolute contempt for the innocent children of the marriage. The cruelty knows no bounds I guess.

The bottom line is everyone gets hurt. That is why I feel it is best for no contact at all. To much drama. The marriage continues, even though one partner has been hurt. The children of the marriage are hurt, the ow is hurt, the oc is hurt. EVERYONE GETS HURT.

This is where the biggest argument seems to be. I myself belive in no contact. The oc is not my responsibility, not my problem. My children will never be forced to pay for the sins of their father. Yet many ow think it is necessary that their child be part of the family, etc. As mothers we all do what is best for our children. I can see where they would want a father around for their child, but then, that was their fault to keep a child that didn't have a father available. Simply selfish.

The whole thing is a sordid mess. Your scenario is a perfect example of why it is just as hard on the husband of cheater. But the same POJA would need to be addressed. Is she going to destroy her family for one child? If she did, she would suffer greatly, as her children would realize she sacrificed them and that would breed resentment. So she has a choice to make doesn't she. Not an easy place to be. But to think she can force this child upon a family that is angry about it would be selfish and cruel. But then again, those terms can be used to describe people in affairs anyway. The hell she would be living in would be of her own making. I know I wouldn't want to be in that situation. Is that where you are finding yourself?

If so, my heart goes out to you. However the MB principles and the POJA apply both ways. So if a man found himself in this situation, the same rules would apply. Make the decision together, where both are 100% supportive of it, or the marriage won't work. Neither can force the other into anything. We just don't have to many men who post here.
Posted By: star*fish Re: Dr. Phil - 12/03/04 02:14 PM
Micheal,

Maybe you just haven't run accross the posts that do recommend adoption for women. I did a quick search to see if anything popped and found a few posts and threads that deal with that issue. We have alot more women than men here....so this doesn't arise as often....but men who wish for there wives to give up the OC are supported here. Here's a couple of posts and threads of interest:

from catnip (long time member who recommends adoption to WWs)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I firmly believe that in cases such as your when a husband finds that his wife is pregnant with someone else's child, it is the wife's obligation to her husband, her children and to the OC to give the OC up for adoption and to sacrifice her selfish desires to keep OC for the overall good of her family of origin...and ultimately for the OC itself! The OC deserves the advantages of an untainted life with a stable and loving two-parent family. The child should not be subjected to the label of '[censored] born of an affair', the possibility of not being accepted, being the subject of gossip. I believe the Wayward Wife should just suck up her pain and discomfort and do the most unselfish thing she can for the child, her husband and her other children. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's something from TooMuchCoffeeMan to a WW:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He may not feel like those are such great sacrifices on your part. But if you would be willing to put the baby up for adoption to save the M, then this HUGE sacrifice could go a long way in convincing your H that you truly love him and would do anything to regain his trust, including giving up your child for him. He may be so moved by such an offer, that he may not want you to give up the baby, to spare you the hurt of parting with it. But if giving up the child is out of the question, then the fate of your M may be decided on an emotional toss of the coin by your H. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">More: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=002115#000007

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=004486#000009

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=004208#000004
Posted By: tigger4jdt Re: Dr. Phil - 12/03/04 03:01 PM
Micheal,

If you could go back to my H's first posts you would see many asking him things like, "Do you want to stay married?", or "Are you willing to raise this baby with your W?", or other similar questions!

I know that you are in pain due to your W's actions, but it is NOT just a given that the BH will raise the OC! Here on the P/C board, the WW is told, if not by myself, then by others, that she HAS to give her H the choice of whether or not they want to be a part of the OC's life. WE, my H and I, actually did consider adoption, but having gone through that 17 years ago(yesterday) my H didn't want me to go through that again, and he was willing to be Daddy to Abbi, and it's a choice that I left up to him! THAT was our POJA. I was in agreement that whatever my H chose, I would stand by his decision. I was willing to do whatever it took to repair the damage that I had caused to our M.

So, as for the statements of the BH doesn't have a choice, well, if the WW makes it so, then the BH DOES have a choice, to leave the M. It's not an easy thing to do, for either side of the coin, but if you think you CAN handle it, then at least give it a try before you just give up(not talking in your case, as I know from reading your past posts that you have tried). That's what many of the BW's here have done, some with success at contact, others, not so much. But, at least they admitted they were doing what they felt they could handle.

One last time, EVERY SITUATION IS UNIQUE UNTO ITSELF! Each couple needs to decide TOGETHER what their M can and can't handle from this point on. The BW's who come here trying and/or succeeding at contact should have support, as should those who can't handle contact now and/or ever. This board is MAINLY for the support of the BS dealing with the OC and how to use the concepts to do so. No matter if that BS is a H or a W. It is also for the WS who is TRYING to do what they can to repair that damage that they have caused the M. Again, no matter if the WS is the H or the W.

I highly recommend if you have NOT walked even a foot in these shoes, try NOT to judge the choices others have made, as you can NEVER know how you would react until you are IN the situation with the OC. If you are here w/out that experience, let's work on supporting, WITH the concepts/principles, those who are struggling, no matter what choice they have made. Yes, there is venting allowed, but lets try to get the concepts and principles out there more than the venting, ok?
Posted By: tigger4jdt Re: Dr. Phil - 12/03/04 03:33 PM
Just for those who may be curious, here is the "address" for the post I was talking about when my H was advised what to do in our situation. Now, remember, this was over 4 yrs ago, and just after we had finally decided WHAT we were going to do. Emotions were still high, especially for myself.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=000336#000000
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Dr. Phil - 12/03/04 08:55 PM
And look at ya'll today!!!!!!

Geez Tig and Sailorman! I gotta love you both for your strength of character!

- Kimmy
Posted By: sunnydale Re: Dr. Phil - 12/03/04 09:23 PM
hey where is mom? How is she doing? Anyone know?
Sunny D
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Dr. Phil - 12/03/04 09:26 PM
She's trying to stay off the boards till she gets her feet under her.

She needs time right now.
Posted By: Waiting 2 Exhale Re: Dr. Phil - 12/03/04 09:32 PM
Kimmy,

Please tell her that we understand and our prayers are with her and her family. I know she is going through this tough time and I'm sure it has intensified due to the show, but we love her and are praying for her.

JT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Posted By: LuvMyFamily Re: Dr. Phil - 12/06/04 09:04 PM
I have not read all the post but let me jump in here.

What is the right choice? It depends on the individual situation and couple.

HOWEVER, if you look to the Bible, God says what he has joined let no man separate and that goes for OC. God loves M above all else. He does not want divorce. He wants that M to survive and those children born into that M to have a family. Every sin has a price. The price for the OW is that her child does not have a father and the price for the H is that he will not be a father to the child he fathered. The innocent people here, W, children should not suffer becuase of the sins of others. The only moral obligation is for the father to pay child support.

I am not saying that is the answer for everyone, I am just saying that if you follow the Bible, it will lead you to what is right both morally and spirtually. This is something that was told to me by my Catholic priest and my christian counselor.
Posted By: Gofigure Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 12:56 AM
Hello LuvMyFamily,

That was really deep, and it makes a whole lot of sense. It actually allows one to look at this in a different light.

Take Care.
Posted By: LuvMyFamily Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 03:34 PM
Thanks Go but I can't take credit for it, it came from the priest. But it does make sense. We tend to try to do what we think is "moral" but never look at waht the Bible/Church considers moral. I was very surprised becuase I thought for sure that the Church would say that contact with OC was the moral thing to do. I was floored when the priest said that morally my H was only obligated to pay CS. However, H does not feel that way. So you see, it does not matter what the Bible may say everyone is entitled to make their own decision. However, it helps if you feel pressured one way or another to know this. Kind of helps you put it in a new perspective like you said.

Good luck to you too.
Posted By: angels1966 Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 03:57 PM
Luv,
What book and verses are you refering too,please tell me as I would really like to read them.
I knew it was somewhere in the Bible, and with your help I will find them.
Thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Posted By: top rope Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 04:04 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> From Luvmyfamily:
The only moral obligation is for the father to pay child support.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Legal....Perhaps?

Moral....Please! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

(But as you infer, I suppose that "morality" is always up for debate).

However, At least your H IS standing up & facing his total Responsibilities.

Quite refreshing actually. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

If you decide you can't accept his choices....then you'll have to do what you feel you need to do.

It is unfortunate that you couldn't find a solution that would work for you both. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Posted By: Stacia_Lee Re: Dr. Phil - 12/08/04 06:20 AM
Kimmy,
Please pass on to MOM that I am praying for her and her family... I sent her an email a while back and never got a reply...

Thanks!
Stacia
Posted By: Waiting 2 Exhale Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 07:03 PM
Luv,

You know I love you girl!! I am also inclined to agree with your priest as my pastor said the same to me. It also states in the Bible about illegitimate children ( I think it is Deut. 23).

I agree that the marriage must come first and that is what God intended. I also feel like we all have choices, of what is morally right and wrong, but come on I hope no one is really that grey in thought to think that having a child outside of the marriage is morally or by any other standard RIGHT! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

I am not saying that it is the OC's fault either so don't chew my head off for my opinon!! But it is not the BS's or the BC's fault either. Why should they have to pay for it - any of it. The fact is we all have choices to make and if we are going to stand for our marriages then we must do what is best for the greater good and that to me means the CORE family only. I do not mean to neglect OC by any means, but that does not entitle him/her to the life with your family that OW may think OC deserves.

There are limits to everything and this by all means has it's limits. OC was put here for a reason of course I agree, but that does not mean OC is here to be a part of your family necessarily or and active member of it. If it works for you, and all I mean ALL involved are perfectly happy then do it!! My prayers are with you, but if not don't feel guilty about it. Because you are still blessed (BS's and repentent WS's). Everyone answers for his/her own sin!!!

Just food for thought,

JT


PS - don't have a cow if you don't agree with me it's okay to each have an opinion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ December 07, 2004, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: JT2 ]</small>
Posted By: meNtheboyz Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 07:42 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree that the marriage must come first and that is what God intended. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, by that thinking, is it fair to assume that my child's father is obligated to relinquish his future right to a parental relationship in favor of my new husband?? Do I not have the same right to put my marriage first and the family unit he and I are building above the feelings/desires of the bio father??

I'm not saying that tongue-in-cheek, it's a legitimate question. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 07:49 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do I not have the same right to put my marriage first and the family unit he and I are building above the feelings/desires of the bio father??
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES!!!!!!!!! You've just as much right!!!!!!
Posted By: sunnydale Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 07:56 PM
If your H wants to be a father to this child and your XMM hasn't been? Why not! What is best for your family and child?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> SUnny D
Posted By: star*fish Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 07:57 PM
M&B,

I'll try to give you a sensitive legtimate answer...which is mostly....I don't know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> LOL I'm not a bible scholar, but my guess is that God doesn't say much about second marriages...because it is his desire for first marriages to remain intact, which is why he defined those things that constitute sin. Nor do I have a religious affiliation so I don't know which marriages are "blessed" by God, but I am aware of quite a few relitions that that would not recognize your second marriage as legitimate. But if we take religion out of the equation....strictly in marriage terms...putting your marriage first, no matter who your husband happens to be at the time....is the best way to preserve that union and keep it strong.
Posted By: meNtheboyz Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 08:04 PM
Starfish,

Yes, but this is my future husband's first marriage, so it should be seen as such for HIS sake...kwim?

I guess the thing that burns my biscuits a little is that of course the bio father can't be forced to parent (not that I WANT him too...BLECH!) but at the same time he has the right to legally keep someone else from it.

And before anyone says anything about my H being a "loving influence in his life" whether it's all legal or not, yes, true, but that is NOT the same as being the legal, openly recognized father.

eta:
Not that it makes a difference, but it is not the first marriage for either my son's bio fahter OR his BW, so if we're talking about religiously recognized "marriage", theirs isn't either.

<small>[ December 07, 2004, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: meNtheboyz ]</small>
Posted By: sunnydale Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 08:14 PM
Like me I guess, I choose to be the OC's step mommy,(by staying in my M) have no legal rights, but an moral obligation care and love him. HUH. So does new H, he chooses to be the step dad. I think the love in return for it, out weights the so called "legal" matter of it all. KWIM! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D
Posted By: star*fish Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 08:20 PM
Your new H wants to adopt and xMM won't agree to it?
Posted By: LBelle Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 08:38 PM
"I guess the thing that burns my biscuits a little is that of course the bio father can't be forced to parent (not that I WANT him too...BLECH!) but at the same time he has the right to legally keep someone else from it."

I understand how you feel. It burned my biscuit that my H as the father wanted to give the OC for adoption to a loving couple and OW had the right to legally keep him from doing it.

I assume your new H knows about the situation ahead of time and was able to decide if it was something he could live with and deal with. Is that right?

I hope it works out for you. I am sure it will be best for your child to have a loving, caring and everyday father.
Posted By: meNtheboyz Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 08:48 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like me I guess, I choose to be the OC's step mommy,(by staying in my M) have no legal rights, but an moral obligation care and love him. HUH. So does new H, he chooses to be the step dad. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sunny,

The difference is that your H's child HAS a mother, you are like an "extra" mom, giving "extra" love and support beyond what the bio parent is giving on a regular basis.

That's a very different animal than a completely ABSENTEE bio parent who is giving NO love or emotional support, but would prevent another person from being what they CHOOSE not to be, kwim?

My H will be a step-father to my older child, who has a great Dad very much involved in his life. To my little one, he wants to be a father , and yes, there is a difference.
Posted By: meNtheboyz Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 08:51 PM
Starfish,

My attorney has asked his if he will allow the adoption, but we have yet to get an answer. We have reason to believe that he may say no, though I can't imagine why....(ok, I've been told a reason, but it makes no sense to me)
Posted By: star*fish Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 08:58 PM
M&B,

I understand how much any mother wants to have an active father in their child's life....I sincerely do. But when situations like yours occur, where you legally address the MM by filing for child support, then it's impossible to then "turn off" his legal rights. Legal obligations are never a matter of convenience, so now that you no longer need him...you are encumbered with the very rights that you empowered him with in the first place by insisting he "be" a father at least financially. Perhaps he is a vindictive person who sees this as an opportunity to for retribution....sadly I hope not...but I think it's something that any woman who legally addresses child support should think about when deciding to pursue it.
Posted By: meNtheboyz Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 09:14 PM
Starfish,

Excuse me, but please do not make assumptions about my situation because my child's father is married.

I did not file with the courts regarding child support, HE did.
Posted By: Momto3Boys Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 09:21 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stacia_Lee:
<strong> Kimmy,
Please pass on to MOM that I am praying for her and her family... I sent her an email a while back and never got a reply...

Thanks!
Stacia </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stacia, I didn't get your email!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Can you email me again?
Did you know my first name is Stasia? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ December 08, 2004, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: momto3boys ]</small>
Posted By: Waiting 2 Exhale Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 09:21 PM
Mentheboyz,

I know it is not good for me to answer you right now because I have only read the post right after mine so forgive me if I miss a point or two. to answer your question in my opinion I say yes!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The married man knew that he inevitably would be second (so to speak) one day when you decided to marry. Your core family becomes just as important then as his is. I am not saying cut him off or anything, but now he has to realize that everything will not be as black and white as they may have once been where your son is concerned. He/OC will now have a live in father who in turn must come first as well.

don't get me wrong I was not trying to say it goes only one way it doesn't the door swings both ways.

Now I must read the other posts to see if I have even repeated I'm sure what others have said.

I wish you the best, always.

JT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Posted By: star*fish Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 09:47 PM
Sorry M&B, Didn't mean to offend you. It sounds like your situation is unusual and I shouldn't have assumed it followed the norm. So xMM filed in order to pay CS, but refuses to play an active role in his life or allow your new h to? How confusing. Sorry.
Posted By: pops Re: Dr. Phil - 12/07/04 11:32 PM
(posted by lynn)EVERYONE GETS HURT.
not always so. when fh had her A we had 6 kids living in the house (19,18,12,10,8,&5). the oldest 2 were most definately hurt and disappointed in their mom. BUT i have to say that the younger 4 showed no signs of being hurt. we were honest with them about the father from the start. i am guessing as i am no head shrink but i feel it was because they were to young to feel the emotional anger the older ones did. all they saw was they were getting a new baby sibling.

tigger4 said it best with each and every situation has to be looked under its own INDIVIDUAL circumstances. there is definately no one size fits all here.

hoping all have their shopping complete so you can just sit back and enjoy the holidays.
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