Marriage Builders
Posted By: sdguy038 SDGuy's Plan B - 12/12/06 03:34 AM
She has rented a place but hasn't yet moved out, so I am in a strange attempt at Plan B. At the moment, her parents are visiting. They know and disapprove but can only do so much. They recovered from infidelity in their own marriage but never explained it to my W (she has inklings--I'm sure this contributed to her decisions).

But my W is trying to be nice to me--trying to engage me in conversation, looking at me when something funny happens. I don't know whether she just wants everything to be "fine" or whether she actually wants the connection. I believe she thinks we are still going to be friends and that the kids will be okay.

But all I feel is revulsion. I know that she will call the OM on her secret cell phone later (or already did), and I can't stand to look at her or be in the same room with her. I know that this is part of what Plan B is about--preserving what's left of my loving feelings and protecting her from the things I have to say--pointing out what a train wreck she's making of her life and the additional DJs that will follow it. So I don't say anything. The anger I feel affects how I am with my kids.

How do you do this?

SDGuy
Posted By: believer Re: How do I do this? - 12/12/06 03:40 AM
Do her parents know that she is moving out? Is she taking the children?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: How do I do this? - 12/12/06 03:54 AM
Express your feelings w/o DJing.

Say things like, "I'm really angry right now."

Just saying you're angry will help lesson your anger.

OTOH, have you heard about the F-U Plan?

Although it isn't recommended at MB, there have been some BS's that have found this plan to be exactly what was needed to bring their WS out of the fog. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

~ Marsh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How do I do this? - 12/12/06 05:20 AM
Yes, her parents know that she has rented an apartment. I know they know she is making a mistake, but they also know that they can't just tell her what to do. I have supplied them with info on romantic affairs (that is clearly what my W is in)--I can only hope I'm not coming across as a raving lunatic. We have agreed on 50% custody of the children.

I haven't been talking to her at all, which feels a little juvenille but is an accurate representation of how I feel. A walk helped me regain my composure, though.

I don't know about the F-U plan. . . do tell.

SD
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: How do I do this? - 12/12/06 05:11 PM
BUMP
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: How do I do this? - 12/12/06 05:21 PM
Here's a link to the story!

Plan F-U

You may get a laugh at least! LOL
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How do I do this? - 12/12/06 07:40 PM
So far, her parents have only seen me in no communication mode, and I wanted them to understand that that's not me. I think they get it, but before I left this morning, I said to my W in front of her parents "It doesn't have to be this way. We can rebuild our marriage and make it better than ever before. I still love you." She was predictably annoyed that I did it in front of them, but I don't really care.

Now I'm going back into communication shutdown.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How do I do this? - 12/13/06 06:22 AM
She texted me this afternoon asking if I could pick up the kids. I responded yes, but where did she want me to tell them she was if they asked. She texted back 'shopping--feed them.' Pretty sure at that point that she was out with the OM, it having been several days since she could have seen him. I thought I would make sure, though, so I called her and asked "Are you considering giving up OM and giving our marriage a real chance?" The response was 1) the two aren't related (ha!) and 2) we did give it a chance. I said 'okay, why don't you not come home tonight--because I don't want you here.' Then there was some verbal sparring about that not being my decision and she won't leave until she can take the kids bla bla bla.

So I took the kids out and got a Christmas tree, brought it home, and decorated it. Decorating it is something she usually does, but I did with the kids. Then I cleaned the kitchen. She's a pack rat and a bit of a slob, and I find myself looking forward to getting her out of here so that I can pitch a lot of the crap we have sitting around in piles.

I'm so angry right now I don't know that I will want her back if she ever wakes up. I really need to get her out.
Posted By: fightingback Re: How do I do this? - 12/13/06 03:58 PM
SDguy,
I haven't had a chance to read up on your story, but I am in the same place you are, living in the same house, working on plan B arrangements, WS refusing NC, wants to cake eat/fence ride until the cows come home. isn''t it funny how they look at you like you have 2 heads when you reiterate how they have to go??? like they don't understand why you have a prob with it. my WS uses the old, "i've been honest with you" like I should give her a medal or something.

MY WS is doing the NICE act to. I have been fooled by it for weeks. I hear the niceness in her voice and jump right in and engage. its not easy to resist. I wish I could do the no communication like you. I am starting to get there though. my MIL said it very well when she said "WS doesn't want your M or OP, she wants to keep getting what she is getting from both of you" they are only nice, to ...releive guilt, keep the peace, be friends. make no mistake, they are not trying to recommit! it couldn't be farther from their minds.

my WS wont be out until feb 1st. I don't know how I can live like this for that long. I may be in need of a little F_U plan as well. the resentment builds, and builds. one can only stand so much. not many words of wisdom, just know that you are not alone. I know exactly how you feel!!!
Posted By: piojitos Re: How do I do this? - 12/13/06 04:08 PM
I haven't read your story either but if you want her out that badly, get her out (i.e. Plan B). I have been there and it really helps. I find that when I get really angry, it starts to affect my interaction with my children. It got so bad this week I asked for (and was denied) a divorce. The kids did not ask for this and it is not their fault. You need to find a way to vent that anger but hopefully in a way that won't get you arrested. When I get angry, I lift weights. I'm thinking of a punching bag. We'll see.

BTW, you want the ultimate DJ? When WW says she will leave when she can have the kids, tell her that there is not a snowball's chance that you want your kids raised by a role model who teaches them that screwing around on her H is a right thing to do. IOW, try to show her what an unfit mother she really is.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How do I do this? - 12/13/06 05:20 PM
Oh, man, FB. I don't know if I could manage until Feb 1. I know that I need her out and to start Plan B because like piojitos, it's affecting my relationship with my kids. Her presence hurts me. I think I'm going to try telling her that (via email) and see if I can get her out sooner.

The whole fact that the WS is oblivious to the pain they cause is incredibly frustrating (but typical). On top of the fact that the whole picture is clear to me--the causes, the addiction, the lies, the insanity, the pain, the solution but I am powerless to help her see it is also incredibly frustrating (but also typical). Plan B. Serenity prayer.

She stayed with the OM last night. When she came in this morning, my son was eating breakfast. Neither of them said a word. It's so sad.

FB, there was a great post by BobPure (imagine that) in one of the other threads with an "I'm not interested in being your friend" letter you might want to look at.

SDGuy
Posted By: sdguy038 More Plan B Questions - 12/18/06 05:51 PM
My WW is partway out of the house but still around enough that it's very uncomfortable. Yesterday was her birthday. She spent the day with the kids and then told them she was going to spend the night at her apartment. I caught her in the lie by writing down the mileage on her car. She got angry, called me names, then left and spent the night at OM's apartment. I hate that she is lying to our children, but I guess the alternative is her telling them what she's really doing, and I don't want that either. I need her out. It's just too hard to watch and maintain silence.

Some questions: There is much more of a pattern to these things than people think. What's going to happen to me as I'm able to really Plan B? Are there things that usually happen to people? Stages? Emotions?

Right now it's still very much a roller coaster. I'm in acceptance one minute and then slip back into bargaining (if only she could see what was happening to her). Wanting to wash my hands of her and move on one minute and then knowing it's not really her doing all these things, that she will wake up at some point, and that we can still have a good marriage and family.

It's been so long since I've had any kind of intimacy, and I'm starved for it. Jennifer C tells me not to think about dating, but that's exactly what I'm thinking about.

What's going to happen to my WW? She's so far gone in the fantasy I don't know that she will ever come out. If she does, months seems like a conservative estimate. How do you last that long?

I'm hurting a lot today and would appreciate whatever advice people have.
Posted By: inshockman Re: More Plan B Questions - 12/18/06 06:08 PM
I've been in your situation. It's almost identical to where I was. Heed my advice.

1) Tell her you love her, but "the time has come"

2) Don't disrespect her, but show no weakness

3) Tell her you want a divorce and you're filing

4) Tell her you're fighting for primary custody of the children. Don't give reasons (don't say you're unfit) just state that as an absolute fact - and tell her like you're serious, but do it nicely. Don't allow this to become an argument - If she retorts ..do not respond, don't say "Good luck" or "See you in court.." Don't be sucked in. State your intentions - then DONE. Do not argue.

5) Ask her not to talk to you unless it's about the health and wellfare of your children

6) Tell her matter-of-factly that you're moving on and you've fallen in love with the posibility of living independent of her or even the possibility of someone on this planet that can return your love

7) Thank her for the time you had with her, in a nice a respectful way

8) Show no weakness, do not waiver, do not lose control of your emotions, be absolute

You've got to become a Jedi-Master. You've got to control your emotions. You've got to know how you will emotionally respond to certain statements before hand so you can react appropriately and maintain control at all times.

Everyone here knows, myself included - that all this business is an emotional cluster-F* - but you've got to master your emotions. Know yourself.

Have you seen the movie "Fight Club" where he pours acid on his arm? .. he's in agony, screaming and crying for relief - but slowly he begins to control the pain and quiets his mind .. it's funny. I always equated this scene with my own emotional struggle.
Posted By: miketc Re: More Plan B Questions - 12/18/06 06:45 PM
I feel for you guys as I'm in the same situation right now; WW has her apartment and will be out completely on Christmas day (stay long enough to open presents with the kids). We agreed to 50/50 custody where we each take the kids every other week. My heart tells me to go dark Plan B after her departure but my principle is telling me to go Plan DV. I do love her and would do anything to save our M but it’s so hard to decide.

Inshock, how did your 8 points plan worked for you? Any other advice?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: More Plan B Questions - 12/18/06 07:34 PM
Did you ever read through MYWIFEILOVE's threads?

~ Marsh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: More Plan B Questions - 12/19/06 01:21 AM
I hadn't read MWIL's threads until today. Thanks for the suggestion. Inspirational. I continue to be amazed by the similarities in WS behavior--the slow emotional detachment that signifies that the A is still ongoing. Reading it unfold in his thread was painful, because now I know what the behavior means.

I see some differences, though. The OM in MWIL's case was a more obvious scumbag. In my case, from the outside he seems to be a decent guy and has convinced my WW that his wife is mentally ill/violent, etc. The affair is basically at 1.5+ years now (with some supposed downtime about a year ago). She seems very far gone to me.

And she never let me back in. No ILY. No touching. No attempts on her part to accept what I was trying to give. It sounds like MWIL was getting more indications than I have that his WW wasn't sure about what she's doing.

My W is also very passive--I'm afraid that even if she does wake up, she won't have the courage to do anything about it.

She needs to be out of the house so that I can go dark for real. I heard her talking to the OM on the secret cell phone in another room the other night as I was trying to go to sleep. Didn't get to sleep. . . .

Okay. Jedi-master. I know what she's doing with the OM, so why should I let that hurt me? It's pathetic insanity, to be pitied rather than railed against. Use the Force.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: More Plan B Questions - 12/19/06 09:56 PM
Avoided contact (talking to her, looking at her) last night. She was talking on the cell phone again last night while watching tv. I went down and said "I can hear you talking" to which she replied "I was just talking to the tv." Does she think she's fooling me? Does she care? It's sick. I just shook my head and went back upstairs.

What does anyone think about giving gifts to my ILs? I have been making wooden animals and was thinking about giving a set to her parents and her sister and having it be from me and the kids. Is that too pushy?
Posted By: sdguy038 Development - 12/20/06 05:37 AM
Just got off the phone with the OMW. Because they seem so far gone, I was encouraging her to Plan B, but she tells me that she has been plan A'ing for the last month or so and has noticed results. She has his attention--he has apparently been in conflict, crying, talking about how it was easier when she was angry all the time. Like me, she spent many months LBing.

I think that she will read and maybe post here. If she does, I hope the vets will give her some advice, because this feels promising to me. I wouldn't mind some advice myself. I think I need to keep up the Plan B now that she is about out, but now I'm not sure. Maybe I should go back to A, too.
Posted By: inshockman Re: Development - 12/20/06 02:02 PM
Keep working on yourself man. Even the pro's will tell you to Plan A until you can Plan A no longer. Re-discover yourself. Here's a project for you, it's hard. Every day spend 5 minutes thinking about life without your wife - Being a single independent person - just being ..independent..or the possibility of what could be.

The first time you do this - your mind will immediately flood with negatives. Eliminate those immediately. Think of all the positive things that will happen to you. Focus on those. Lock onto those. Do this once a day.

Pray for OMW efforts. Maintain control. Don't LB. Keep it up. Focus.

You should give those gifts. You're not doing it to spite her. Your motives are pure.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Development - 12/20/06 02:38 PM
Quote
I went down and said "I can hear you talking" to which she replied "I was just talking to the tv." Does she think she's fooling me? Does she care? It's sick. I just shook my head and went back upstairs.

Yes, it is sick and stupid.

But that is the nature of a wayward.

Quit expecting to see your W, she's been taken over by an alien force.

LovingAnyway was posting to a woman here who had a WH who left her every night w/ his bio kids to go be w/ his OW.

She told AMIOK to view his trips to see her as if he were Alice in Wonderland going down the rabbit hole to get his fantasy fix.

This is how you need to view your WW too.

Quote
What does anyone think about giving gifts to my ILs? I have been making wooden animals and was thinking about giving a set to her parents and her sister and having it be from me and the kids. Is that too pushy?


Pushy? I don't think it's pushy at all.

Homemade gifts are THE best. And I think it'd be a very nice gesture.

Quote
Just got off the phone with the OMW. Because they seem so far gone, I was encouraging her to Plan B, but she tells me that she has been plan A'ing for the last month or so and has noticed results. She has his attention--he has apparently been in conflict, crying, talking about how it was easier when she was angry all the time. Like me, she spent many months LBing.


This IS good news.

Quote
I wouldn't mind some advice myself. I think I need to keep up the Plan B now that she is about out, but now I'm not sure. Maybe I should go back to A, too.


I think you should go back to plan A too.

Have you considered giving Steve Harley a call?

~ Marsh

PS: Here's another inspirational story for you, written by a poster named Lostva's (Lori]...


---

Ok, so you guys do realize that I tend to get wordy and talk WAYYYYY too much and you STILL want me to do this, right? I'm gonna touch on a lotta stuff here. I'd shied away from posting lately, but I've actually been ASKED my opinion!! You guys don't know what a mind-field you've set off here!!

Now, I'm not particularly wise and wonderful, but I can share with you my experiences and feelings, but that's all. And sometimes those feelings don't follow the norm, so be forewarned.

OK, history first, I guess. One Monday, last spring, Robert walked in after work. He leaned over to kiss me and I said "Hi, Honey, I love you." He said, "Hi. I love you, too, but not like I used to - we need to talk." That was my last kiss. And the night of the "I love you but not IN love with you stuff." Also the last "I love you" in any form.

Within a week, he didn't love me at all, couldn't stand the sight of me, our marriage had been a mistake and he wished he had never married me. Knew our relationship had been a mistake since the beginning (TEN YEARS???) and it never should have happened. Kristin (my daughter from my first marriage) didn't care for him at all and never would. His family couldn't stand us and we had ruined his life. He couldn't count the number of times he had wished I had been in an accident and died so that he could be released from these "pits of ******". We had NEVER had a good time, never really cared for each other like we should - he couldn't even remember the fun times. And on and on....All this was news to me! We were the couple that most people envied! We had had a hard couple of years, Mom's cancer, Papa's death, but I had NO idea. I wanted to die.

THEN, he told me about PT. She made him feel WONDERFUL. He finally knew what true love really was and he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her. He adored her 3 year old and she loved him. I had NEVER made him feel this way, we were never meant to be, etc......you know the stuff, right? The knife turned. We've all been there.

So, I came here and lurked. And cried. And couldn't sleep, 30 pounds in 30 days, all the standard stuff. One month later, he left to be with her.

When he left, I didn't know where he was. He didn't contact us, not even Kristin. He spent some time visiting his mom, but eventually, cut away from them as well. She was my greatest strength through this mess. Now, don't get me wrong, she welcomed PT into her home, the whole family did. They were afraid they'd lose Robert if they didn't. His sister called me and told me that Robert was finally happy and I should "move on". (Man, I hate those words, what DO they really mean???) But Mom called me daily once she found out what was going on and tried to spy as much as possible. We've gotten closer than I ever imagined we could be.

PT and Robert set up house. He already had her moved into a new place b/f he left. They opened joint bank accounts, he brought her HERE when I wasn't here to get some of his things, set her up with OUR doctor (she supposedly didn't have one), took her all around OUR town (they lived an hour away) as his girlfriend. Told everyone he ran into that we were through. In VA, you have to be separated for 6 months to get divorced and he said as soon as that time was over, we were done. Taught Leah (PT's daughter) to call him "Daddy". (That hurt worse than ANYTHING, believe it or not.) No financial support whatsoever. Took two vehicles so PT could have one. He called infrequently - when he needed something (until the last month), came by rarely, usually to pick up something or hunt. Didn't give me his address or phone number. Was cold and mean to me - wouldn't talk to Kristin at all hardly (except for once or twice during the whole time.) He was someone I didn't even know.

The first time I posted here, Deb responded first...."You'll be ok, you CAN get through this, there are things you can do." Ok, so there was NO way she could know..I mean, she could NEVER have hurt like I did, loved like I did, been treated as horribly as I was. Ok, I was wrong. She DID know! And she was right - so was everyone else.

I owe my friends here my life. They calmed me down. Showed me I wasn't alone. Cried with me, took deep breaths with me, got me through way too many sleepless nights, laughed with me, and kicked me in the butt and outta feeling sorry for myself when I needed it. I think that was the most important thing of all. And helped me find something to laugh at in the midst of all this mess. I soon discovered I was looking forward to waking every morning.

So, like she said, the rawness eased - the hurt found it's place, continuous sorta, but in it's place. I started paying attention to what people were trying to teach me, got rid of my stubborness and self-righeousness. Ordered books, read, read, read! And started thinking.

You know, Robert couldn't come up with one specific thing about me as a wife that was bad. Even said so himself. But, once I got rid of the old ideas and opened my mind, I COULD!!! I mean, I had worked my butt off to be a good wife, but..... You've heard me say before that he broke the vow of fidelity, but I broke a lot of them too - unknowingly. I wasn't the best PERSON I could be and therefore, not the best wife either.

And I thought about him too. I'd known this man for fifteen years - through good times and what I THOUGHT were bad times (this mess sorta changes your perspective!!) This was not him...to abandon us, leave us to starve. He and Kristin were "joined at the hip". To say now that he never really loved her, just cared for her? Something was definitely not right. This was NOT him....not from my experience, or that of his family and friends (who he had now begun to turn his back on.) Sooo.....

Well, after reading a few books on the nature of affairs, looking realistically at my contributions to the state of our marriage, listening to my betrayer friends on this site, I started to understand. It took away the sting of his words and actions. Didn't erase it - just took the edge off. Through Harley's books and others, I learned about marriages and affairs. From Phil McGraw, I learned about myself. I was insatiable. My basic personality is to DO something. Now, I had a bit of understanding, AND something I could do! I got stronger and stronger. Sure, there were bad days. Thanksgiving and New Years come to mind, as well as one notable weekend w/ two love-busting letters. (BTW, I found out that he was thinking hard about coming home at that point and my letters talked him right out of it! The power of a love buster!! I'm glad - I wasn't where I needed to be yet!) As I grew stronger, I felt freer. I realized that I had the power. He didn't keep me going, I realized it was up to me to do that, and to keep HIM going, too! Even though he didn't know it.

First decision. Do I love my husband? Yup, more than life itself - not the things he's doing now, but the man he truly is inside. Second. Do I want my marriage back? Nope - but I want a better one. Third - Am I ready to work for it? Absolutely!! I asked myself these three questions every single day. Every morning, before I got out of bed, I asked myself these questions. Same answer.

So I loved him. And respected and believed in the man I KNEW was inside. I learned to look PAST this behavior and into the soul of the man that I was convinced was still there. And tried to understand the torture he was going through - even though he didn't THINK he was. I knew now, right? I took the good little signs and they sustained my love. I blew off the bad stuff as part of the addiction. So it wouldn't KILL my love. I believed in him and lit a candle (still do, for us and all my friends) and every time I passed it, I told him I loved him and I believed in him. The coolest part was I was also beginning to believe in ME!! TNT taught me that, the power of words and belief.

Since I couldn't talk to him, I wrote a letter to him once a week and sent it to his mom's. Pop would deliver it to work for me. They were light, funny, flirty, news from home - like he was away from camp and homesick!! Works of art that I worked hard on at first, then seemed to come more easily. Somewhere in each letter, when appropriate, I compared something that I was telling him with a good memory of ours (and then this happened and you know it was just like when we....)and laughed about it. I ended each one with "I love you and I will always believe in you." I never took off my rings. He commented on that once - asked why I was wearing them - really angry sounding. I told him I loved him, I was married to him and I would always be married to him in my heart. He looked annoyed at first, looked like he was gonna yell at me and then got quiet for a minute. Then, with a strange look on his face, he said quietly "Thank you, Lori." I laughed and flirted when I saw him. Once or twice, I teared up, but not often. I saved that for when I was alone. At the end of each of the few visits, I hugged him goodbye and said "I love you." I got nothing except "You DO know I'm getting a divorce and marrying PT - no matter what. And even if I didn't marry her, I'll never come back." I just told him to do what he needed to do, but I'd always love him. I never discussed PT with him, never mentioned her name. I never discussed us or our marriage. If he brought it up, I'd just say I loved him and I wanted what would make him happy. No more. He'd just look at me like I had lost my mind.

At first it was "pretending". But I was working on me too, with the help of my favorite book by Phil McGraw. And I wasn't sitting around waiting. I continued to love him, but I had a daughter to raise and life was happening. I knew I couldn't support us and keep this house. She couldn't stay in private school. And I didn't have much time. I knew my job would be ending, just didn't know when. So I enrolled her in public school, started working on the house to sell it. Went to HS football games, shopping with friends, movies with the kids, whatever. I enjoyed more days than I didn't. And grew stronger. So, soon, I didn't have to pretend. During this time, I forgave him. Don't remember when or how, just all of a sudden, realized that I wasn't angry and didn't hold anything against him. Robert had held marriage sacred, had always been there for me, no matter what. Had NO respect whatsoever for any SOB who would stray and was very verbal about it. For a good, kind and decent man - the most wonderful man I ever knew to turn his back on everything that had ever been important to him - something was wrong. And I couldn't love him and not forgive him for something that took him over so completely. I learned to laugh. I began sleeping, I began to live. But I didn't stop loving him. I think THAT'S moving on.

Around Dec. he started calling a bit more, bogus reasons, favors he needed. Still talking divorce. But finally communicating a bit. I just listened. Never talked about us. See, now I wasn't "playing" him to get him back. I was REALLY his friend! You know? I cared about him, loved him and wanted what was best for him. Like a real friend would. So, it was getting easier most of the time. Of course, I still wanted him back, but, I wasn't obsessing anymore. He called one day at work, wanted the Dr.'s phone number and wound up getting really nasty with me. I patiently listened and let him talk, no matter what he said, and eventually discovered that he had had a seizure, the first in 20 years, the Friday b/f. Once I thought about it and the way I know my husband is, I realized he could've looked the phone number up in the directory. He needed to talk - he was scared. And, for him, scared turns into angry. And I was the target. Why? Because I was the one he could trust. And I was there for him. I found out later, I was right. Without even realizing it, when he got scared, he turned to me.

In January, I got the letter telling me he was about to file. It was time to "get it over with." And 4 days later, he asked to come home. We took a month to make the transition and see each other. He still had not said "I love you." That came during that month. So did our first conversations about us since that very first week. I found out later that he thought he came home b/c he decided he SHOULD. Now, it didn't hurt that PT had been a B**** and I had become someone he enjoyed being around. He told his family he really "liked" me now - I was still Lori, but "more somehow". And I really liked me too - a whole lot more than I did before. I was very proud of myself for what I was doing - for my marriage and for me personally. That shines through, I think. It seems that he had been doing a lot of thinking - for practically the whole time. And then, one day, he heard a song, and it stuck in his head, reminding him of committment and all that stuff. He pushed it away and wrote that letter - fighting the thoughts. Well, on his way over here on Saturday, he heard it again. And he decided. He couldn't "move on" until he had finished this. He was coming over to fix my dryer for me (the FIRST thing he had ever offered to do) and wound up taking me for a ride and asking to come home. No real romance there, guys.

The first few weeks were unsettling. PT pulled hard and so did his emotions. There's so much guilt and other stuff. He said he wanted to move out on day 3. He tested me constantly to see if I was real and if my love was real. And, then, very slowly, he became strong. And we began to fall in love. And now, he tells me he loves me forever, loved me even when he didn't love me (that makes sense to me for some reason) and that he's 100% "in love" with me (I hate THAT phrase, too, but I'll take it from him! ) He also says he admires my courage, respects me for respecting him, even when I had no reason to, and that my believing in him made him strong. I don't take credit for all that, but it sure feels good to hear it.

Ok, now for opinions. Don't blast me, ok? I never felt humiliated or shamed. We made mistakes and bad judgements, but...stuff happens. I had small spurts of anger - at specific THINGS he did and said, but anger has never come easily for me - I believe it's simply another way of showing hurt, so I never really had to deal with the slow burning continuous anger - I just let myself hurt and dealt with it. Tootrusting is right - we can't force them. THEY have to figure it out on their own. All we can do is be there and love them - if we choose to.... and that's what it is - a choice. We're not doormats or any such nonsense. We're strong and independent and coping with a difficult situation, thank you. And this is NOT for wimps! I can't think of anything less doormatty (like that word? ) than standing strong for what you believe in in the face of all the nonsense. But I'd be there for my child and I decided I'd sure as ****** be there for my husband as long as he'd let me - and sometimes, even when he wouldn't. A lot of times it would've been a lot easier to run - For my short time, I chose the other path.

Robert didn't decide "all of a sudden". All those months of Plan A (I just do NOT have a Plan B personality!) were slowly building impressions that were eating away at his subconscious. When the time was right, a trigger (the song) brought them to the surface. I'm not so sure that he really did it to "do the right thing." I think that's the excuse for doing what he wanted to do, know what I mean? I mean, his love just grew too quickly to have just been "doing the right thing." He didn't change his mind quickly. Everything was slowing bringing him back to reality - we just couldn't see it. PT was being a B*****. I was being an angel. The fog was wearing thin. The letter was a last grasp to hang on to the "I'll never go back" thing. Fighting back against those nagging thoughts. I found out later that every time he left here, no matter how awful he was to me, he went home and was MORE awful to PT - or quiet and sullen. Then, he'd go out and do something WONDERFUL for her.....trying to hold on, know what I mean? Remember the little Dutch boy? A tiny hole in a dam is NOT a big thing. But that little bit of water, seeping through, DOES eventually break it down! That's Plan A. That's what happened to Robert, I think and so does his mom. It didn't happen all of a sudden, the damn dam just finally broke against the consistant gentle force of the water!!! (I just LOVE analogies - even corny ones!)

OK, warned you this would be long and I don't even know if I've helped at all. The saddest part is that it WAS longer....I actually pared it down a bit! TNT summed it up better than me.

Ok, so that's the closest I can come to a nutshell version. If I missed a question, let me know. I'll try NOT to be so wordy the next time around.

Good luck to you.

Love and prayers,

Lori


Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Development - 12/20/06 10:04 PM
Call on the radio show or for counseling? I've been working with Jennifer C and think it's time for another session.

WW and I are about to go our separate ways for the holidays (she's taking the kids to her parents before XMas and then I take them to mine after). I'm not sure how effectively I can Plan A at this point. When I was doing it, the most I got was her getting angry from being in conflict. She completely resisted letting me in and seems to move away whenever I try to get closer. It makes me wonder whether I should just keep up the Plan B. I think I will feel healthier and happier without her around--even though I know it is the addicted alien (and that my W is buried deep in there somewhere and doesn't know how to get out) talking and acting, it still gets to me sometimes. The bit about OMW making progress with Plan A gives me a jolt of strength, though.
Posted By: shattered dreams Re: Development - 12/20/06 10:59 PM
sd...have you read the Carrot and Stick of Plan A by Pepperband? If not, it's been bumped up a lot today, and it would be a great read for you.

Hang in there,
SD
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Development - 12/21/06 06:35 AM
I've read it (and reread it). I did Plan A for many months but wasn't getting anywhere. She hasn't given an inch on letting me in for the past year. I think it's too late for Plan A but will ask the experts.

Tonight she was in our home with the kids when I came in. Last night she went Christmas shopping with the OM and stayed at his place. She has an apartment but has only used it as an excuse to stay over at the OM's place (i.e., she has not spent the night there yet). So tonight, it looked like she planned to stay here (she apparently had no plans with OM). I asked her if she was going to, then when she said she didn't know, I said why don't you not. Predictably, she got all huffy like there was something wrong with me but packed up some stuff and left. As she left, I went and watched her leave (thought maybe I heard her crying--wasn't the case). From the car, she flipped me off, then told me I could call the OMW in an accusatory tone and that maybe I could arrange a date with her. It's the alien talking, of course, but I'm not sure how to Plan A in the face of that. Maybe after the holidays. I'm proud of myself for just smiling and watching her go and not responding to her. Many, many things I could have said (like how sick it was for her to spend the night with OM when his 3-year old daughter was there), but I didn't. Progress.

On another note, I have a former female co-worker whose husband was having an A--theirs was maybe six months ahead of mine. Also in the workplace, and (like my infidels) they also refused to stop working together. My friend had to change jobs, but the two infidels still work where I do. I saw them yesterday, and the OW was no longer wearing a wedding ring. Based on what I saw (not the only time), what I have learned here, and my own personal experience, I'm pretty sure their affair is still going. I hadn't talked to my friend for a while, so I gave her a call to see how things were going. What she told me only made me more worried, so I told her my suspicions and why (and my own situation). She got upset (understandably) and was going to go in and confront the WH. I tried to talk her out of that--you're too upset and emotional right now. Be cool for the rest of the night. Figure out how to get proof, and in the mean time take a walk, play with the kids, watch him, but don't confront him tonight. It won't go well.

As I was driving home I was thinking about her situation. She was really upset, and I thought that maybe I should try to have lunch with her tomorrow--give her a hug and the understanding of someone else in the same situation. As I thought through that, I realized that a hug for two people as broken and angry as the two of us are right now might go somewhere else, and *then* I realized that I wanted it to go somewhere else. It was surprising. I worked with her for close to 8 years and have never been attracted to her, but in that moment the concept of kissing her and having sex with her was very appealing. Maybe it still is. I'm so emotionally starved, and she will be so angry, and who would be hurt by it, and, and, and . . . .

Man. This stuff is scary. Seeing how obviously insane my WW is right now makes me that much more confident that she will come out of it at some point, but what happens between now and then? I'm looking forward to her being gone with the kids. I want some time to myself--I have a lot of things I want to do. For myself. Sleeping with my friend isn't one of them.

This is hard.
Posted By: shattered dreams Re: Development - 12/21/06 07:11 AM
Quote
She has an apartment but has only used it as an excuse to stay over at the OM's place (i.e., she has not spent the night there yet). So tonight, it looked like she planned to stay here (she apparently had no plans with OM). I said why don't you not. Predictably, she got all huffy like there was something wrong with me but packed up some stuff and left.


Wouldn't it have been just as easy to say something like "you know, it's really nice having you here tonight" "shall we __________________________________________(suggest doing something you both used to really enjoy) "and by the way, have I told you recently how much you mean to me, and I will be constantly trying to figure out how to make amends to you for the shortcomings I brought to our marriage".

Plan A is filling her Love Bank, not making (sorry) snide remarks to remind her she's behaving like a slut!

Think these things through, and eliminate the Love Busting, and fill her EN's. That's Plan A.

Think about it!

Best wishes,
SD
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Development - 12/21/06 03:40 PM
SD,

Sounds as though your Plan A has gone on for too long.

Quote
Maybe it still is. I'm so emotionally starved, and she will be so angry, and who would be hurt by it, and, and, and . . . .


You both will be hurt by it.

Neither one of you are finished w/ the marriages you are currently in.

It's good that you were honest w/ yourself about what your true intentions were in getting closer to this other woman, so now you know how vulnerable you are to this type of thing.

Be careful.

Your kids need at least one parent who is grounded in reality.

Hang in there.

((((((HUGS))))))

~ Marsh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Development - 12/21/06 06:15 PM
Thanks, Marsh. That's kind of why I posted it. Self-realization. Pointing out the danger to myself and others.

I think my true intentions were letting a friend know that her husband is still cheating on her. All during the phone conversation, all I was thinking about was helping her with her marriage and telling her about mine and how I want it back. It was only later that the urge kicked in, and I'm pretty sure it was just one of those "in the moment" things. It was powerful to realize that if I had really been in that moment, things could have gone very wrong. Probably exactly the way most affairs start. I have said to my WW for a long time now that I understand how the affair probably started and more specifically that it could have been me rather than her.

I think the Plan A window has closed and am feeling healthy for a change (felt good last night after she left, felt good with the kids this morning). I have an appointment with Jennifer tomorrow, though.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Development - 12/22/06 04:30 PM
hey Sd,

I know exactly how you feel, I have seriously considered confiding in an EX, someone who I don't see very oftn, but we know some friends in the same circle. I know for a fact that this person still has those feelings for me, it would be so easy to be comforted by her. I know she would jump at the task.I have frequently thought, if I let it slip about my M problem, OP could take the lead. these thoughts are normal I guess. and there are many reasons I have not gone through with it. I don't want to do what my WS has done to me, to someone else. It would not be fair to OP. My intentions would be purely selfish,. the thing is, I have often wondered about this EX. how it would have been and such. and now I know that it would not make me happy.

that may not be much help, but I am in this for a short time as well, just want you to know you are not alone.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Development - 12/22/06 04:49 PM
I sense exactly what you are feeling. I have been reeling since I found out in Oct. I would have good days, where I would plan A very well, then very bad days, with many EO and AO. saying the meanest things I could possibly say. I have even given ultimatums, if you can't stop, then go. my WS has been looking for job/apt. I have been trying to plan B her while in the same house. every day a different emotion

just this week though, I am feeling a sense of control. it is not easy, still hurts, every second, but now I don't know. I think I just might be able to plan A. if she still wants to spend time in the house with you, there is something keeping her there. she won't admit it. but there is.

I have started talking to myself. I stop myself before I say anything, to anyone and evaluate why I feel this way, will my words or actions make a difference. the pause is just enough to prevent an outburst. and whenever my W says or does something typical of WS, I excuse her in my head, to myself. something like "she's just drunk" or like I did with the kids "he's just teething" it lets me refocus and ignore the bad stuff.

the thing is, I have only been doing this for a week (the real planA), and already I see change in my W.
she still has the WS behavior and talk, but in between that I see shades of my W, and she is nicer, sweeter than before. maybe this plan A will really work, If i have the strength to carry it out for more than a day or 2. what I thought was plan A was really just me panicing, and freaking out, and grabbing onto anything that comforted me.

just my thoughts, hope it helps
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Development - 12/22/06 06:21 PM
Thanks, FB. Glad to hear that your plan A is getting you somewhere. Keep up the good work! And your self-talk is good. Like Marsh said above, it's not your W, it's your WW. It's the alien. If you think about her as possessed by an alien and thus insane, it's easier to deal with the behavior.

My Plan A was solid. I completely eliminated AOs or EOs and was working on annoying habits. It worked just enough to put her into conflict (she got angry that I was still trying), but she could tell what I was doing, didn't trust it, didn't want it (wanted to keep the A going), and completely shut me out. Hence, Plan B.

I'm optimistic, though. The progress on OMW's Plan A shows the first cracks in the A. It will crumble sooner or later.

In the mean time, I am looking forward to working on myself and doing things I want to do. For example, I wish she was taking the kids to her parents' *longer* than she is. I have more wooden animals I want to make (I had the kids help me with the sets we are sending to the ILs so the gifts can be from the three of us), some home repair stuff that's been bugging me for a long time, making sweet rolls to take to neighbors for Christmas Eve, some movies I want to watch, etc.

Maybe I will want her back, and maybe I won't. I find myself thinking that the decision will be based upon what she comes back to the relationship with. I've read about the remorse that FWS's feel, that they ultimately recognize what a mistake it was, that they really didn't love the OP, that they still loved their spouse. I feel like I will need to see that--remorse, contrition, apology. Not that I expect her to come crawling back so that I can hit her with "I Told You So" every day (I have already said I will never say "I told you so"), but some acknowledgement that what she convinced herself about our relationship was a product of the affair fantasy. Marsh (and others), is this a realistic expectation, do you suppose? Will I ever see this? I have the sense that if she tries to come back, I will know if it's really her, but I suspect it will take much longer to see the things I want to see. Right?
Posted By: fightingback Re: Development - 12/22/06 08:41 PM
sd, I feel the same about the comeback. I am enjoying some space from my WS. before, I couldn't function without being consumed by WS needs. but I am hesitant about jumping back too soon. maybe thats why I am getting comfortable in Plan A. I need space for myself. to deal with my issues myself. I am coming to the conclusion that I don't want my identical W back, or the WS. I want the W who has learned to be a better partner in life. that is the factor that will decide whether we make it or not. whether we both are open to the changes that are needed to have a healthier, stronger relationship.

even though I am still devastated by the A, I am giving it less power now. because I know how inflated it actually is. its full of hot air. I am feeling more secure because I know of the strength of our foundation. it remains strong. just waiting for a pin to pop the ballon.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Development - 12/27/06 06:57 AM
Is it threatening for infidels to know that their spouses are talking? I have been chatting with OMW on occasion, including telling her about this place and the principles of marriage recovery taught here. She used the term love-buster the other day, and OM said "Have you been talking with [me]?" My WW later angrily told me I should call OMW and could maybe get a date with her. They seem to be very threatened/angry when we talk. Is this common?

Also, still looking for some thoughts on the below. OMW is, too. I would appreciate any input.

Quote
Maybe I will want her back, and maybe I won't. I find myself thinking that the decision will be based upon what she comes back to the relationship with. I've read about the remorse that FWS's feel, that they ultimately recognize what a mistake it was, that they really didn't love the OP, that they still loved their spouse. I feel like I will need to see that--remorse, contrition, apology. Not that I expect her to come crawling back so that I can hit her with "I Told You So" every day (I have already said I will never say "I told you so"), but some acknowledgement that what she convinced herself about our relationship was a product of the affair fantasy. Marsh (and others), is this a realistic expectation, do you suppose? Will I ever see this? I have the sense that if she tries to come back, I will know if it's really her, but I suspect it will take much longer to see the things I want to see. Right?
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: Development - 12/27/06 07:00 AM
It will take much longer.

Bottom line is you need to see the affair ended. Then NC then they withdraw from OP - maybe takes 6-8 weeks. At that point you will probably start seeing glimpses of the person you married and maybe some remorse and regret.

Figure on 6 months for them to really get it fully.

But it slowly gets better.
Posted By: sdguy038 change locks? contact with OMW? - 01/03/07 03:38 AM
In a couple of days I'll be heading home with the kids, and my WW should be moved out of the house. I will help her move the last few things and then begin serious Plan B (tried to avoid her as much as possible previously, but it was difficult). Any thoughts on whether I should change the locks on the house? I suspect she expects to be able to come and go when she needs to, but I'm not sure.

Also, what about contact with the OMW? This seems to really irritate the infidels, but I'm thinking it should only be done when necessary rather than as a means to provoke the infidels. Any thoughts?
Posted By: believer Re: change locks? contact with OMW? - 01/03/07 03:54 AM
I think it is good to talk to the other betrayed spouse. That way you can support each other, and get a head's up when the infidels are about to do something.

I have kept in contact with my ex's OW's BH for 3 years now.
Posted By: bendover49 Re: change locks? contact with OMW? - 01/03/07 10:38 AM
Yes, by all means, change the locks. Sends a great message and keeps the WW from removing things that you don't want removed. I agree about keeping in contact with the OMW as well.
Posted By: hopeandpray Re: change locks? contact with OMW? - 01/03/07 05:12 PM
The OM's STBXW and I have become great friends (trauma buddies as she calls it). My EX WW and serial cheating, lying, old, STD laden, OM appear to be headed to the altar once he's divorced. She will rue the day just not right now.
Posted By: fightingback Re: change locks? contact with OMW? - 01/03/07 10:09 PM
hey Sd, checking in on your sitch.

I am almost plan B ready as well, scared ****less. I am getting the same assumptions from my WS, as if when she moves out (next sat btw) she will be able to sleep on the couch on those days when its more convenient for her. if I stay in plan A a bit longer would this be OK?? anyone have input on that?? Oh, and she has a gym at her complex, said that I could use it if I wanted to, is she crazy????

I also would love to see some regret, remorse, sorrow. any normal reaction that would indicate there is love under there. with such focus on NC and ending the A, I have not been able to focus much energy on the next step. I have considered the fact that I am unsure of my desire to put up with this relationship one sided indefinately! it seems as if NC is just the beginning and I, too, find myself questioning being in it for the long haul. the amount of selfcare involved seems enormous, I now know I am capable of standing by her in this regard, question is, after all the good plan A taking care of me stuff, I am questioning whether I really want to.

some elements of my W were apparent this weekend, but after 3 short peaceful days, WS reared ugly head and asked if I would mind if she met OP for lunch. I had all I could do to not to rip her head off. Lucky for her I am having a great deal of inner peace with the move out plan, and I simply responded with a "sure, but pack your stuff before hand as you wont be sleeping here again after that" and a smile , of course.

skies are foggier than ever again!!!!!!
Posted By: sdguy038 Plan B Begins--pep talk encouraged - 01/06/07 06:59 AM
I'm now home from the holidays with the kids. WW has moved out but has taken very little from the house (okay with me--if she comes back, I don't want anything the OM has been around coming back with her).

Today is the first day she has taken the kids overnight at her apartment. Leaving this morning was very hard knowing that. I tried to be nonchalant about it when I left, but after my 3-year old daughter came running out to me because she forgot to give me a kiss, I lost it. Waterworks. Roller coaster day. Hope I can sleep.

The OM recently told OMW that the affair ended 2-3 weeks ago and that they are just friends now, but I have GPS data that shows WW spent the night at his apartment 4 times in the last ten days. Why lie, we wonder? My initial reaction was "because that's what infidels do" and "it would be great for them if we believed that something other than the affair killed our marriages." But then I started wondering. Does he think she's an idiot and wouldn't eventually find out?

So...I find myself wondering--if WW and OM really are perfect for each other, would that look any different to me? I look at their behavior, and it is textbook fog/alien/denial wayward, which makes me believe they can still come out of it. But what if they're in the, what, 5% who can keep a long-term relationship born from infidelity going? How would I know? Can I? Would their behavior still be the same?

Hang in there, FB. That's what I'm trying to do.
Posted By: InLikeFlynn Re: Plan B Begins--pep talk encouraged - 01/06/07 02:19 PM
Did you tell OMW's about the stay over's?
Posted By: fightingback Re: Plan B Begins--pep talk encouraged - 01/06/07 05:34 PM
SD,
I am feeling the same way about items purchased for the "I need to **** around pad" don't want any of that crap back in my house. my WS keeps saying "if it doesn't work out, we wanted this couch anyway" IMO WS and OP, just like your WW and OM are all still very confused. I suspect the OM is trying to keep OMW in his back pocket, maybe he is not so confident that they are "meant to be" thats why they want to keep all of the BS's hanging on bit by bit. after all, how well do they know ea other. certainly not like they know their spouses and vice versa.

my WS said it well when she said "I am risking everything that has ever meant anything to me for something that I have no idea is even going to work out." btw you know they are NOT perfect for each other, they are in this crazy fantasy land, well guess what? the ride is over, reality is going to set in. where does OMW think OM is when he is not sleeping at home?? do you speak with OMW?? she needs to know that they are having friendly sleep overs.

stay strong, you are doing great.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Plan B Begins--pep talk encouraged - 01/06/07 06:26 PM
OM has been out of his house since May. And yes, I told OMW about the stayovers. I also suggested that she not confront him with the truth, since my experience is that it will only make them angry. Apparently, he still comes to their house and helps out with stuff--it sounds like cake-eating, but she's not ready for Plan B. It will be interesting to see how that plays out for OM and OMW. It's tempting to bring it up with WW (like a lot of things are tempting), but I am determined not to.

I can feel the depression back on me. I hope it clears up soon.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Plan B Begins--pep talk encouraged - 01/07/07 01:26 AM
I am feeling your pain SD, I hope you have plans tonight, best to over schedule yourself and keep busy. hang in there. remember after the depression hits, the calm will come again. you know this because you've been up and down the hills of this roller coaster. I can't imagine how you feel, and I don't look forward to plan B either, but you are doing the right thing. how come it always has to feel like such crap though?!!!!!!!!!!!be strong

tonight is a hard day for me too. sat is always our family day/date night. as I always work on sun. this will be our last one. as WS will be moving into her apt. next sat.
I feel like crap, snapped at my son. my WS knows somethings bothering me, but is too far into withdrawal to notice or even care. I snapped at her too. guess nobody's perfect.

when is WW bringing the kids back, are they spending the whole weekend with her?? believe in yourself. she doesn't remember it, she is blinded. but she will see one day how you saved your M and she will thank you. imagine how that will feel. believe, stay strong. you can do this.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Plan B Begins--pep talk encouraged - 01/07/07 05:10 AM
Thanks, FB. It's the roller coaster. The depression affects my appetite and ability to sleep. Kids come home tomorrow, and I will be ready.

I went to her apartment today (needed to use her car), and the place is a disaster. Almost no furniture, stuff strewn around. She looked awful, too.

On the first visit, the phone rang while I was there. There's only one person who would be calling her, but she didn't pick it up in my presence. The answering machine picked it up, and a man's voice said a few words (something like hello...are you there?). She picked up the phone briefly, then set it back down. Then she shrugged at me like "I wonder what that was all about". All I said was "yeah" (as in yeah, right--you're not fooling anyone--I know exactly who that was) (shoudn't have said anything, but couldn't help myself). She didn't like being caught out and snapped at me over nothing as I was on my way out. Insanity.

When I returned the car, I brought some stuff from the house to her and looked around the apartment a little more. We chatted briefly, and it was clear to me that she wanted to talk, but I politely excused myself. Insanity.

I am in the process of organizing my house and sprucing it up, and I feel really good about that. Seeing the kids and leaving them over there was really hard.

Hiker said it in another thread--you're going to feel lousy and won't be as patient with your kids, who need you now more than ever. Be on guard for it. It's what I'm trying to do.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Plan B Begins--pep talk encouraged - 01/07/07 01:08 PM
Yuck, I can't believe it. you did well with the phone call. you could have gone off on her. I think its OK to show your displeasure with another man calling your W!!!!! she knew that you knew that she knew, you know??? no words were necessary. she was snappy because her reality is hitting as well. I swear at times they have themselves so far in denial, they actually think what they are doing is... hmmm... strong, noble, taking care of themselves, just trying to be happy... rationalizations all over the place. then when the 2 worlds collide like that, they feel the truth, they see it for the seedy, irresponsible, family wrecking, crappy thing it is. then they lash out at the one person who will take it, who they feel comforted by, who has always been and probably will always be there for them, the old spare tire left at the side of the road. yup, thats you and me. thats our role. be there when they need us, and go away when they are busy with OP, OM

I guess you could look at it as a compliment??!!? strange choice of words I know but there is safety in you. that doesn't have a lot of punch right now, but that commitment, that stability, that comfort, is what will show her the way home. she probably is not so secure to lash out at OM. he doesn't accept her like you do, he can't. they are not there yet. and may never be.

I don't know if your kids were ever in day care, but my youngest was. he would be an angel all day. then I would pick him up after 9 hours and he would melt down, cry, fuss, not listen. he did all this because he knew that I would always accept him, he could let his true feelings out. he knew that I was his mom, that he was safe, that I would never desert him. he had to hide his feelings most of the day because he didn't have that same trust, security in the babysitter. so when your wife lashes, remember its because she has that faith in you, that trust, that security. you have that over OM!!!!!!

you have more than you know, just keep believing.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Plan B Begins--pep talk encouraged - 01/07/07 01:11 PM
btw, did you help her move into her apartment, what do your kids know, where they there when she packed up?? I am trying to figure out whether I actually want to be the one carrying in the new TV, you know. I guess I would rather it be me than OP. but I am sure it will be hard. did you give her a plan B letter yet????
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Plan B Begins--pep talk encouraged - 01/07/07 05:32 PM
I gave her a Plan B letter well before she actually moved out, and then it was difficult to implement. After consulting with Jennifer C, I gave her another letter before leaving for the holidays that was basically a reiteration of the Plan B concepts. Here's the text:

Dear WW,

I miss you. I miss being with my best friend. I miss
all that was good about us and our family. It makes
me especially sad because I know that things could be
very different. I have learned so much about
relationships, and I know that ours could be built
into something wonderful. I am a changed person
because of what I have learned. The life I am
proposing is something new--not going back to the
past. There are so many things we could do that would
spark our love for each other. That is what I want
because I still love you.

It is because I still love you that I can't see you.
It may feel to you that I do this out of anger or to
punish you somehow, but I do it because to do anything
else hurts too much. When I turn away from you, it is
not because I don't care, but because my heart is
crying. It doesn't have to be this way.

Until you are ready to give up your relationship with
OM, however, I will attempt to neither see nor talk
with you. I have to put up a protective wall around
myself. I hope that you can see down in your heart
that this separation is a way of protecting both you
and me under the current conditions. It's too
heart-breaking to do anything else.

I will help you move stuff on the 26th. You will need
to have the rest of your things moved out when we
return or I will box them up for you. Please
remember--this is not what I want. I want a new,
better life with you and the kids. The door is open.

She moved the stuff herself (she really didn't take very much). I had told her how upset I would be if I found out that OM had been in the house, and she seemed to respect that. She has one more heavy thing left, and I have agreed to help her with that. It's strange to me how little she has taken--none of the kids clothes, for example, or the old spare DVD player that was in the garage. She was going to buy a new one. Weird.

We have not talked to the kids together, so I don't know exactly what they've heard from her, but I think it's that we are angry at one another and can't live together anymore. That she's going to have her own house, and that the kids will have two houses where they live. They (my 7-year old, anyway) know that this is not what I want and I think understand that the only person that wants this is WW. If he asks me why we are angry at each other, I will tell him, but he really doesn't want to talk about it, so I don't push it.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Plan B Begins--pep talk encouraged - 01/07/07 08:32 PM
your plan B letter sounds great. I am not sure I am ready. confused again. I keep re-evaluating our relationship and there are EN's of hers that I did not meet. but as I look at my own EN's I am starting to see that WS doesn't come close to meeting many of them. I am wondering whether or not its really worth it. I mean, I can't even get her to stop the A, and recommit, never mind the amount of change she will need to go through, now that I realize I don't want to live with the person I was with. I don't know if I have it in me to wait anymore. I am sad today. I am tired of not getting my needs met. I realize I wasn't as happy as I thought, its depressing.

but alas, I am not supposed to be bringing you down, but supporting your plan B.

my son is 8, he is the only one who kind of understands what is happening, I think he thinks I am responsible as he overheard me tell ny WS under my breath to "get the **** out of my house" then he asked if we were getting Div, and my WS said "maybe", he cried and then she left him alone. she doesn't deal well when people cry, I stayed with him and comforted him, I can't believe she was so irresponsible to just blurt that out, and then let it hang there. he knows she is getting an apartment and so far has handled it ok. a friend suggested I should talk to his teacher at school, she says they will give the kids extra attention as this is a hard time for them. It sounds good, I may do that next week.

hope your weekend is getting better. you are not alone, keep on keeping on!!!!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Plan B Begins--pep talk encouraged - 01/08/07 12:43 AM
You already know this, I expect, but no, you can't get her to stop the affair. You can't get her to do anything. She's been possessed by an alien. She's not your W, she's your WW. But just because she didn't meet your needs before doesn't mean that she can't in the future. If you're like us, you may not have even known about them and certainly didn't talk about them. Like it says in the letter, it's not about going back to the past, it's about building a new relationship. I certainly don't want to be with who my WW is now or, for that matter, the person who let things get so bad that the affair became possible. I want to be with the person I believe she can be (and would want to be if she weren't so fogged).

I have the kids back now, which is good, but I'm plagued by the sensation that something is wrong. Which it is, of course, but this is what it is. Hard. I think it will get better.

I talked to my son's teacher when it became apparent that the affair was still ongoing and my WW was making noises about wanting out, and she thanked me for telling her. I will check in again with her and tell her that my son is now living in two places. Our day-care provider has known all along (I told her as soon as I found out about the affair).

Hang in there.

SDG
Posted By: fightingback Re: Plan B Begins--pep talk encouraged - 01/08/07 02:36 AM
thanks SDG,
its really good not going through this alone, your words are a great reminder. good advice. I am happy tomorrow is monday, throwing myself back into the week feels good. sometimes I can talk the good talk, believe all the MB principles will work, but some days the wave just crashes too low. today was one of those days. staying online and posting makes me feel better. I don't know what I would have done if not for this place.

thanks for your input, you are very strong. your WW is lucky to have you. she will see the light. stay strong, stay close to those kids, that always works for me.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Plan B Begins--pep talk encouraged - 01/08/07 03:25 AM
I think you have to know that you (and your kids) will be okay whether she comes back or not. So, plan B may not bring your WW back, but if you do it right, it will get you into a better place. At least, that's my understanding.

I know that better times are ahead for me whether she returns or not, but, man, it sucks right now.
Posted By: sdguy038 This is hard - 01/09/07 02:41 AM
First discussion about custody. My parents are coming to help support. They always come for the month of February, but this time they are coming earlier--on Saturday, so I asked if we could rearrange the schedule so that the kids and I wouldn't pick up the grandparents Saturday night only to go with WW for the next three days. I tried to do the negotiating via email, but she wanted to talk about it over the phone, so we did. WW wants to know why grandparents are coming so early. Says it's not helpful, doesn't give the kids a chance to adjust to the new routine. I say this is difficult for everyone and don't agree that having grandparents around will be bad for kids. Then she says that having them here so soon will make it difficult for kids to choose. . . Choose? says I. They won't be choosing, they will do what we agree. And then I hear myself saying the choice they're being exposed to is the one that you made. WW says And I'm sure you spoonfeed them that every chance you get. No, I reply, but it is the truth. . . . She said something like "Everything is still about you" that I totally didn't get, and I said that I was tempted to try to figure out what she meant by it but that I didn't want to talk to her, and then I got off the phone before I could do or receive any more damage.

Hard, hard, hard.

I know it's Fogtalk and that I should ignore it, but . . . what if it isn't? I have all these other things to say now--things that should show her how wrong she is, but maybe they are just to convince me that I'm doing the right thing. I'm not going to say them. I know they won't help. Maybe I'll write them down in a journal. This is why I need to limit communication, right?
Posted By: believer Re: This is hard - 01/09/07 02:53 AM
She still sounds very foggy, especially about the kids "choosing". What is up with that?

You will probably need to stick to the schedule so you don't have to talk to her anymore. That is the point of Plan B.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: This is hard - 01/09/07 03:18 AM
They way I interpret the choose comment is that she is realizing or becoming afraid that if they were given the ability to choose, the kids wouldn't choose her. Her apartment is okay, but it's a disaster area, and it sucks compared to what "home" (especially with grandparents) offers.

I'm not saying anything about choosing or trying to poison them against her, but I'm also not lying and telling them that I'm happy about this. Last night, when my 3-year old told me she was sad because Mommy moved to an apartment (unsolicited), I told her that I was sad, too. And angry, my 7-year old chimed in--one of the first times he has voluntarily said anything about it (I don't force it on him), and I said yes, that, too. I don't think they know about the affair.

You're right about the fog. And about not talking.

Now three nights without the kids. Hard, hard, hard.
Posted By: believer Re: This is hard - 01/09/07 03:26 AM
Be sure to let them know that dad has a plan. It will make them feel safer and more secure. You don't need to go into the details.

Why is your wife's place such a disaster?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: This is hard - 01/09/07 05:08 AM
Thanks for the tip about the plan. I hadn't thought about that.

She hasn't taken much stuff from the house, and she hasn't done a good job of organizing her place. She made noise about having the place ready for the kids to move in, but their beds are mattresses on the floor. Plastic storage boxes for clothes, which she didn't bring enough of (most of them are still in the house). Card table to eat at. And she's a pack rat and doesn't mind clutter, so there is lots and lots of clutter. For someone who isn't working and just had 8 days without the kids, it's pretty sad. But I take it as a sign of her mental state and am somewhat encouraged.

More fog and WS behavior: during the discussion about why my parents are coming early, she said If you need so much help to take care of the kids, she could keep them more. I didn't point it out, but my parents are also coming to help support me. She has someone to get support from. When the kids are not here, I am alone in the house. She's not alone in her apartment very often. She would, of course, deny this. It's another example of the denial of the effects her actions and the inability of a WS to consider anyone else.

It was in someone's signature--something like Never forget that the BS's feelings mean nothing to a WS? I can't remember the exact wording. I thought it was Mulan, but now I can't find it. Very accurate, though.
Posted By: fightingback Re: This is hard - 01/09/07 12:26 PM
SD, thinking of you today/
its crazy how those statements throw you for a loop still.
I think you handled yourself quite well. I think the self absorption is apparent in my WS as well. she actually made a comment yesterday about how I am "deserting" her.

its odd but they are so self involved they have no clue as to how their actions are affecting spouse or kids. her comment about choosing is only about herself(feeling inadequate, seedy), sounds like she will feel isolated and alone when your parents visit. kind of out of the loop. this must be hard, because in a way she is reaching out to you, trying to connect. trying to engage.

perhaps she is starting to see what she is missing. stay strong. I wonder if anyone who has been through plan B can comment on how to deal with WS that continually try to reconnect. what else you may expect. never hurts to be prepared. stay strong. you can do this!!!!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: This is hard - 01/09/07 11:05 PM
Feeling anxious today. OMW tells me she is ready to give up. She's been trying Plan A, which she's now stopping, but she says she doesn't want to try Plan B. Because OM has been cake-eating, I tried to persuade her that it's too soon to give up, that she should get custody of her kids and make him face reality. But she points out that it's been a year and a half. Am I kidding myself holding out hope?
Posted By: believer Re: This is hard - 01/09/07 11:23 PM
Well, see if she will post here for some support. These affairs always end.
Posted By: Mulan Re: This is hard - 01/09/07 11:29 PM
Quote
It was in someone's signature--something like Never forget that the BS's feelings mean nothing to a WS? I can't remember the exact wording. I thought it was Mulan, but now I can't find it. Very accurate, though.

"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS."

When the WS starts to protect YOU and care about how YOU feel, they are well on their way to becoming a FWS - but not before.

Mulan (also famous for having named Plan FU)
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: This is hard - 01/10/07 02:23 AM
I have really encouraged her to post here. It's to the point of being pushy. I really wish she would, though.

Thanks, Mulan. I thought it was you.
Posted By: fightingback Re: This is hard - 01/11/07 02:12 AM
Hey SDguy,
how is your plan B going??? thinking of you, hope your doing ok!!! be strong!!!!
Posted By: sdguy038 2 x 4s? - 01/11/07 05:15 AM
Third day without the kids. I was feeling pretty anxious last night, and I hadn't heard anything from ILs since they were here six weeks ago. Not hearing from them made me wonder where they stood (do they think I'm some kind of whack job with this romantic affair stuff?), so I called and talked to MIL. MIL is still supportive, knows what WW is going through, knows WW won't listen to reason, still wants to talk to her and try to get through (because MIL has also been WW). MIL is pulling for me. Reassuring. Gave me strength.

Was up early today and functional at work. Exchanged a couple of emails with WW (responding to something she asked and asking her about some house stuff). The emails were cordial, and I tried to be brief. Among other things, she asked if I could bring the old tv over (I committed to this previously, because it's heavy, and I certainly don't want her getting the OM to come into my house to move it. I have a new tv--retail therapy!), and at the end she mentioned that she has a job interview (she was fired in Sept). I didn't respond.

I left work early and did something for myself in the afternoon, so I was feeling really good and strong, and I thought about her interview. I really wanted to tell her that I was excited for her, to try to boost her confidence, to wish her good luck, but I know that's not Plan B. It was surprising to feel such loving feelings for WW--maybe they are the result of being confident that the A will fall apart.

In the evening, I went and took the tv over. I was open and engaging with the kids and reserved with her. Didn't look at her much, didn't say much. I hooked up the tv for them, during which time she said her job interview is tomorrow morning. I said 'Hmm.' Said goodnight to the kids and left.

Then, when I got home, I responded to her last email (asking her to let me know when she plans to come to the house), ending with Good luck on your interview.

I wasn't ready for the desire to be nice to her. I'm not sure how I did--I was shooting for politely reserved without coming across as a heartless jerk. Any thoughts? Or advice? I don't foresee any more helping-her-move-stuff-type interactions.
Posted By: Hiker45 Re: 2 x 4s? - 01/11/07 05:05 PM
sdguy,

Did you ever get that link I posted for you of Dr. Pittman's articles from Psychology Today?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: 2 x 4s? - 01/11/07 09:28 PM
I did. Thanks. I bookmarked it and only glanced at one article, because at the time it depressed me. Maybe I'll hit them again now. Were there any in particular you like?

I feel good again today and am observing an urge to reach out to WW. To ask how her interview went. I'm not going to, but is this a specific Plan B challenge?
Posted By: fightingback Re: 2 x 4s? - 01/12/07 02:23 PM
SDG,
I am comming up on the big move, tonight and tomorrow. I am having the same kind of questions. My desire to interact is great, the last few nights I came home she has been sleeping in our bed again and without PJ"s no less. there was some cuddling and spooning, I am going to miss that so much. I know if I wanted to I could "date" her so to speak. but that's not plan B and I need plan B. my heart is so broken.

I am hoping you get some more plan B advice, or I may post a new thread to get feedback. You sound like you are doing very well under the circumstances. I will have to continue with email/telephone contact with my WS as well. I have already told her that I am not interested in what goes on in her life from this point and we should be separate socially, ie; no family days together.

I will want to know, how she is doing, what she is doing. it will be so hard to cut the cord. I invision an open door that I have kept for her, now I have to close it, bit by bit, and leave it only slightly ajar.

stay strong!!!
Posted By: Hiker45 Re: 2 x 4s? - 01/12/07 06:09 PM
sdguy,

Yes, there is one in particular that's about 9 pages long that I found very interesting. But all of them are worth a look, and he does have a sense of humor that helps take the edge off of things.

We can always use a laugh or two, right?
Posted By: sdguy038 Week 2 of Plan B - 01/17/07 10:11 PM
This is hard. I'm going through withdrawal, right? It's not like I was getting any needs met by WW, but today I am very anxious and conscious of the fact that she would rather be with OP. At the same time, she has been considerate of and nice to me lately. This is not unexpected--she (like all WS's) thinks we will be friends. I am a nice guy, so it's hard to not respond in kind.

The whole idiotic situation makes me frustrated and angry all over again. When does this get easier?
Posted By: fightingback Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/18/07 12:09 AM
Keep it up SD, don't break your plan

maybe the fact that she is being more considerate of your feelings is because you are not right under her thumb anymore. she is putting a little bit of effort into maintaining that R(friendship) with you, because it is not secure. ?? I am the eternal optimist, I am bound to see good in any sitch

interesting that you comment on withdrawal, I never considered that we need to withdraw from WS's as well. uggghhh
Gosh it seems like the deck is so stacked against us.
lets see....hmmmm...

our heart's have been broken, trust shattered, home dismantled, distorted self worth, children devastated, abandoned, alone, we purposely cut out WS from our lives as they are determined to keep us on the hook. how can anyone stay sane after all that? I ask you?? OH, and don't forget being strong and grounded for the kids. that's a great deal of pressure. sorry but this does bite(not the word I wanted to use)

can't comment on plan B, haven't done it yet. but it sounds excruciating. so sorry for what you are going through
(((((((sdg))))))))

I spoke to a distant friend today, who is about 2 yrs out of all this, she just kept telling me "it will get better" over and over
so I am going to say the same for you, I believe it. I have to.
it will get better
it will get better
it will get better

be strong you can do this!!!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/18/07 12:53 AM
I'm just angry about all of it. All the insanity of the affair and trying to keep the fantasy going. And even though I know it will fall apart at some point, I want to feel like something is happening, but the only thing happening is her and the OM. I only see my kids half of the time, and I find that intolerable. I also know there's nothing I can do about these frustrations.

I know it's a marathon and that things will get better.

Any vets have advice on how I should be thinking about things? People are always telling me that I should "move on," but to me that means being done with it and Plan D. I can kind of envision 3 scenarios:

1) Know that the affair is going to break down and live with hope until that happens.

2) Know that the affair is likely to break down, live my life the way I want to, have some hope.

3) Divorce.

I guess what I don't know is how much hope I allow myself.

WW got good news on her job search today. I know that she wants me to know about it, but I am deliberatley refraining from asking. I desperately want to celebrate the good news with her but won't. I also want to tell her "I would love to celebrate this good news with you, but you have chosen to celebrate with someone else, so now you should go do that," but that's a major LB. I will try hard to say nothing.
Posted By: believer Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/18/07 01:47 AM
The darker the Plan B, the better. The idea is to let the OP meet all her EN's.

It seems like you are having a lot of contact with her.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/18/07 06:08 AM
It's tough. Today she called my cell phone to tell me that our daughter was sick, that she had picked her up from day care, and that she would bring her over later. I didn't pick up and only listened to the voice mail, so that's how I know about the job thing. But my parents are visiting, and WW was chatty with them when she dropped my daughter off. My parents (my mother, at least) are not shutting WW out because they want to keep the relationship open for the grandchildren. I'm not sure what the best approach is for them. WW acts like everything is completely normal when she's around them. It's freaky.

My son called WW and asked her to bring something over, which she did. When she stepped into the house (didn't knock), I made brief eye contact but walked past her without saying anything.

I think I probably need to reinforce the fact that she has chosen not to live here by getting her keys back or changing the locks. [Okay, it's probably 2x4 time, but] I'm not sure how to do this without making her angry, making her want more stuff from the house, and pushing her toward completing the divorce.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/18/07 05:55 PM
This morning my daughter (not sick) announced that she had slept well and that she had a dream. "A good dream! It was about Mommy. She came here." Indicating our house. I am considering whether to tell WW this (in an email) along with the fact that she has said a couple of different times that she is sad Mommy lives in an apartment. And include a brief update on my daughter's health. This, or say nothing.

Any opinions?
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/18/07 06:06 PM
Your plan B is not nearly DARK enough. Don't have ANY contact with her at all. Don't listen to her messages. If she wants something she can arrage it with a third person. NC means NC. You are only hurting your plan B by allowing contact. Don't contact her. Change your locks. Don't bring her TV over, and don't let OM in your house to get it. She will have to negotiate with someone else to get it. I know it is hard, but you are not executing a good plan B up to this point. You are still almost in plan A, but separated. NO MORE CONTACT!!!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/19/07 12:40 AM
Thanks for the advice, but kids make things more difficult. I have two small children. For example, my daughter is sick today, and I feel like that ought to be communicated, since my WW gets her back tomorrow (but I haven't contacted WW yet). It's just not realistic to have no communication when small children are involved. I have discussed this with Jennifer C, who tells me to minimize contact (for my sake) but to avoid being disrespectful when I have to talk with her.

I am very anxious again today. I very much want something to happen, but realistically I know that nothing is going to any time soon, if ever. Is this normal?
Posted By: fightingback Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/19/07 12:46 AM
sdg,

I cannot imagine how hard this is for you. I don't know how you are doing it. but the pro's say plan B needs to be dark. and I have to believe they know what they are talking about. grit your teeth, find something you enjoy doing, distract yourself with work, overschedule your free time, read every post here and post some more, anything but emailing her, email us what you want to say to her.

stay strong, they say you only have one chance for a strong plan B. keep going. you can do this.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/19/07 01:08 PM
sdg, I know you want to communicate for the sake of the kids, and for the sake of their mother knowing about their health. I have felt this need as well. but really, unless it is an emergencey, you can handle it. tell yourself you don't need her input.

??? are you feeling vulnerable handling your D illness alone?? is it a cold or more serious. do you have contact with her doctor?? if she does take her yourself.

I have had to decide for myself, that WS is capable of handling minor disasters with the kids, don't get me wrong, I would rather be involved and usually handled all of the colds/flu stuff(I am a nurse). but that would be a DJ to her. like I didn't think she could handle it.

ask your self what you are feeling. you are strong, believe in yourself. withdrawal must really BITE.

I had to buy a car this weekend and felt very vulnerable. WS always handled finances, I couldn't find the title, had to call insurance co. was in pure panic as I sat at that desk all alone. but I did it, and feel empowered. push yourself to function when you feel vulnerable, its hard being on your own, but its the only way we will grow from this.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/19/07 11:40 PM
Okay, so I didn't communicate anything yesterday. Today, I texted her that the kids were home sick and when did she want us to bring them by? She called my cell, which I didn't pick up. My mom and I took the kids over. I kissed them good-bye from outside her apartment, and then my mom took them in so I wouldn't have to see WW.

I'm so angry about having to drop my kids off. I'm angry that my house is now quiet. I'm angry that my kids are not getting the best parenting they could. I'm angry that my son is being traumatized, and I'm angry that some people would tell me to put on a happy face about it for the kids' sake (lie to them). I hate my WW for doing this to our children.

I'm venting. I'm going to do some deep breathing and work on my house.

This sucks.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/20/07 01:39 AM
you did well, not easy I can imagine, but you did not break your plan B, good job. great job. don't beat yourself up for not feeling great. allow yourself that anger. it is an appropriate emotion. and the worst thing you could do is pretend things are fine. they are NOT!!! do you have a punching bag???

I also have to agree with being honest with the kids. Life is not always easy and they need to know that. they are learning by watching you how to cope with anger, frustration, disappointment.

another point is that people seem to forget how smart children really are. even at a young age they can comprehend when something is not right. they are also very self centered, espec the younger they are. if you tell them thing are"just fine", guess what?? they wont believe you, and they will assume that they have done something wrong. they will blame themselves. that is something that can affect them their whole life...guilt for your parents div.

tell them that things are wrong, explain as much as is appropriate for their age and readiness. they will know its not their fault. kids are resilient, they can cope and understand much better than we give them credit for.
this is JMHO, of course.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/20/07 03:26 AM
sdguy,

I want you to know that fightingback directed me to your thread, so blame her for my advice....NOT REALLY! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I hear your pain, and KNOW it all too well.

One 1x2, you are having far too much communication with your WW. I understand the logistics of having children together (my DS is 4) and the handoffs can be very stressful. I think you did well by having someone help you there, and I think you need to make more concrete plans about dropoff's and pickup's, to allow very little, if any wiggle room. DO NOT TALK TO HER!!! If she contacts you, resend Plan B letter, which state conditions for contact.

Look, we all try to work our own Plan B...it's easy to make excuses for contacting your WW, EEEEEASY. Unless there is major emergency, not including the common cold or stomach virus, you need not contact wife. If you have the children and they become ill while staying with you, a short TM stating children are ill will suffice.

Take Plan B like it is a command from a superior officer. You MUST follow through, or your entire squad will pay the consequences. Everyone needs to follow YOUR lead. Do this for your children and YOU. Do this to be firm that you choose to love your W, but the WW has no place in your life or family...STAND FIRM.

I have recently had to contact WH regarding removing his belongings from the house (by email), and he is pushing back with whatever he can grasp at. Now, I could speculate from now till Friday why, but why waste my precious time....only HE knows why. So, when you start to ASSUME anything, about WW or her actions, just stop, and remind yourself--I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT SHE'S THINKING...relieve yourself of the notion that you are supposed to be KRESKIN, mind reader extraordinaire!!!

Plan B can be a long haul, and it's main purpose is to separate you from the pain that a WS can inflict upon you, and to maintain your love for your W. That is when you hear people telling you to move on....this will take some considerable time to sink in. Carry on your life without considering your WW. DO IT. Go out with friends, play with the kids, change the house a bit--to your liking. Try to think of something that you told yourself you would like to do, if only WW would agree, and DO IT...

Confidence, REAL confidence will draw people to you, as well as catch the eye of a wayward...take care of yourself, eat right, sleep, get help for YOU YOU YOU. Don't become a TAKER, but pamper yourself, do something you enjoy

Last thing, NO MORE ENABLING YOUR WW. If she wants the TV, tell her to do it herself (I know, bad example, what's done is done)...She's grown, RESPECT THAT...

RESPECT isn't just about treating people a certain way, it's about allowing them to make their choices and live with the consequences, good and bad...Freeing yourself from the notion that you have ANY CONTROL of them...Let go. I have learned from many here, but especially Mimi, that it is disrespectful to think for anyone; to ASSUME ANYTHING, so let it GO!

I've gone on long enough here, and I'm sure I could add more, but I think I may derail if I don't post what I've listed so far.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/20/07 05:15 AM
Thanks very much, guys. I appreciate the support. Can someone point me at some good posts about how Plan B is supposed to work? I think I have a pretty good handle on it, really, but if there are some posts like The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A for Plan B, I would like to read them. The more information, the better.

FB, this is confusing me. Are you a BW or a BH? If you feel like revealing it.

I'm feeling more balanced.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/20/07 03:54 PM
There are people who've done great Plan B's. Lunamare, Mimi, are two that come to mind, who have communicated with me and helped me. You can look up their posts with the 'SEARCH' function...probably many of their posts were in GQII.

I don't know how many informational posts there are for Plan B; mainly things for Plan B letter. You could set up a seperate post asking this question of the forum...
Posted By: fightingback Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/22/07 02:41 AM
sdg,
I am a woman, lesbian relationship. most of the info is in an my earlier thread. sorry if I misled you, I have "come out" so to speak on a few threads, its hard to keep track of who knows what about my sitch. me, my WS and OP are all women.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/22/07 01:35 PM
sdg, my original thread is titled what a difference a week makes, and a good plan A.
its a few pages back, if you are interested. in GQ2
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/23/07 02:18 AM
Thanks for the clarification, FB. Now I'm not confused. About that, anyway.

No contact with WW for days. We talked on the phone on Friday just long enough to confirm when the kids would be dropped off at her place. She left open an opportunity to ask her about her follow-up job interview, which I ignored. My mom took the kids to her door while I stayed in the car.

We got the kids back again Sunday, and WW came by to get them for swim lessons. I was gone when she got them and didn't come to the door when she brought them back. My mom said she kept looking in the house to see what I was doing. She talked again about the job (is expecting an offer) briefly with my mom. My mom said WW looks bad--pale and worn out.

It's still a roller coaster. At times I want to reach out to her, to let her know she can come back, to show her I still care, to ask about the job situation, but [put the 2x4s down] I know not to. She's heard enough that this isn't what I want, so I'm keeping very dark. Today it's easier.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/23/07 07:33 PM
sdg, great job/ strong plan B, you give me hope...it can be done.
I bet you must feel like crap, but at least you know she does too. you will get through this. stay strong!!!!!
remember arks post to "be still"!!!!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/23/07 08:29 PM
Hard again today. She asked via email questions about financial accounts, which makes me think she is continuing with the divorce. She also mentioned that she had lunch with a friend last week who told her about how I exposed the affair to one of her former colleagues. I know that the exposure was the right thing to do, that it's okay (and good) if she's angry. But I want my family back, and these kinds of things make me more anxious, at least when I am at the low end of the roller coaster.

My answers to her question was very short, and I ignored the exposure comment. I'm determined to show her nothing but strength and as much silence as possible.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/23/07 09:48 PM
sdg, again, great job, I cannot imagine how tough that was, I have a hard time staying silent.

I had a bad weekend as far as feeling down. gosh, the moments when I feel strong...I think...OK, I can do this....and I think it will continue to get better...but then I crash again...not interested in antidepressants...right now...but I have thought about it...I guess I never feel bad enough to crash my car into a tree...so I figure I can handle it.

stay strong, you are doing great. are you doing anything for yourself to take care of you??? going out with friends???
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/24/07 03:34 AM
sd,

You are doing fine. The less time spent in contact with WW the better; YOU need the silence of Plan B. Have you done anything strictly for you, for relaxation or fun, lately? You still need to detach a bit, and any contact with your WW will set you back. Part of the reason for this is you have EXPECTATIONS. You WANT your WW to respond to every inquiry or every contact with "I've been a total fool, and I want to recover my M; I miss you, ....(insert your own thoughts)" I know...

Every contact I had with WH up until this month has left me knocked down, due to my expectations. As long as you are readily available for WW, she will hold status quo. Part of Plan B is to quiet your life, and give he over to the things she has chosen, the consequences of those choices. If she gets to contact you with piddly requests here and there, and also throw in comments about your exposure, or whatever other things she can to throw you off balance. Hold still...

It takes time to get calm...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/24/07 07:12 AM
Thanks, guys. I really appreciate the input.

WW got the job. She told my parents when she was at my house today and then told me in an email. It was an invitation to congratulate her, but I'm not going to respond.

I saw my IC this afternoon. She tells me I am doing great. There's nothing more I can do (rather, I tell her that, and she agrees with me). But I want there to be more! I want there to be something that will make a difference. . . but I know there isn't. WW is going to do what she's going to do.

I'm trying to be good to myself whenever I get the chance, although I'm due, I think. I'll get a massage in the next couple of days. Plus, I get the kids back tomorrow.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/24/07 04:13 PM
Quote
She asked via email questions about financial accounts, which makes me think she is continuing with the divorce. She also mentioned that she had lunch with a friend last week who told her about how I exposed the affair to one of her former colleagues.


all of this venom means you are in her head...take that as a baby step...she is trying to deny it...but you hold a space in her heart...the only thing she can do is spew venom...she does not have the capacity right now to do more.

sdg...what you are doing is good. don't forget to refocus on yourself....get that massage...do something you have always wanted to but didn't because...take care of you...stay away from the fire
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/24/07 10:15 PM
It turns out the questions were not about continuing the divorce, or at least I don't think so. The signs are mostly positive--she's still interested in me and what I'm doing but is also trying to respect my boundaries. This whole situation has a temporary feel to it (she just extended our family cell phone plan, she's not doing much of anything in the way of decorating her apartment).

I talked with OMW last night, and she is discouraged. Back and forth on whether she wants OM back, not much energy to continue. I suggested again that she post here and tried to give her as big a pep talk as I could. It's hard.

Slept in this morning.
Posted By: believer Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/25/07 04:55 AM
SDGuy - I read your posts everyday, but don't comment much (saw your post on other thread). You are doing fine, and I didn't feel a need.

I will say that Plan B is very quiet, and kind of boring. The WS may go several months without reacting. Be prepared for that. My WH didn't do anything until 4 months into Plan B, and then he called me at work and announced he was moving back home. Only problem was, he was still in contact with OW.

So hang in there, and keep very, very dark. I think you are doing just fine.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/25/07 05:41 AM
Thanks, Believer. It's kind of what I thought--that I know what I need to do and am doing it, and there are people who need help more than I do. I certainly Wish there were something else someone could help me with, though.

Thank you for telling me that you read my posts. I find it reassuring.

I stopped by WW's apartment on the way home tonight to confirm that she was not there (at OM's apt). It felt like a bit of an indulgence to check on her, since I think that part of what I need to do is let it go. I stopped using the GPS on her car. It does seem useful to know that they are still together (OM is still lying to OMW and telling her that the affair is over and they are not seeing each other) rather than be uncertain, but it doesn't really make a difference in terms of what I need to do.

I think that on some level I'm afraid that if I stop caring about her and the marriage, I may not want her back. Still haven't quite figured out how to think about hope and caring and fear while in Plan B yet, I guess.
Posted By: believer Re: Week 2 of Plan B - 01/25/07 05:48 AM
The point of Plan B is to protect your heart. I can tell you the affair will end. But the problem is that you may not want her back if you are not careful.

Don't check on her, assume the affair is continuing. Stay dark, and make her get all of her EN's from the OM.

Plan B takes a long time, and is very silent. But it is the one Plan that usually brings the WS back to the marriage.
Posted By: sdguy038 End of Week 3 - 01/26/07 10:44 PM
Things are quiet. I guess that's good.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: End of Week 3 - 01/26/07 11:21 PM
It is good, sdguy, because it will give you time to heal. Continue to keep dark, and you will slowly find peace.

I know how you are thinking right now, because you have your own addiction to deal with, your own fog. The withdrawal from the drama you have been in can be rough. Give yourself a month to settle in; keep posting your thoughts, and post if you feel desperate to contact WW. We'll be here...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: End of Week 3 - 01/28/07 06:32 AM
I was calm yesterday and today, but now I am angry. Angry at the stupidity of this. Her life living in an apartment, spending only half her time with her kids--it can't be happy. The kids aren't happy. I'm not happy. I want my wife back. I want my family to be whole again. This situation has a definite temporary feel to it, but the whole thing makes me angry.

I think of things to say to WW all the time, but I'm doing a good job of staying dark. It's been about ten days since any eye contact, and I haven't talked to her in over a week.

Any thoughts on family going Plan B as well? My parents are visiting for another month and a half. So far, they (at least my mom) have stayed pleasant with WW for the sake of the kids. It has always been a positive, friendly relationship, and my mom doesn't want to poison it and have that affect her relationship with her grandchildren. I have supported this so far, but a couple of different times my WW has come to the house and chatted with them for 30 mins or so. Getting ENs met. I'm not sure how to handle this. I meant to ask Jennifer in my last session but forgot. Any ideas?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: End of Week 3 - 01/29/07 05:39 AM
Hard today. It was the kid swap day. Our schedule is such that the rest of the swaps happen at day care, which is good. So today I was anxious and angry ahead of time. WW came to pick the kids up, but I didn't know exactly when she would get here, which made it difficult to be absent. I was getting ready to go for a walk when I saw her car pull up, so I hugged the kids and told them goodbye. I was in the process of leaving the room when she came into the house (she knocked and entered).

WW said "Run Away!" as I left. I thought it was in response to the kids saying "Mommy's here!" and running about, but my mom thinks it was directed at me. The kids weren't ready to walk out the door, and while they got ready, I stewed upstairs, outraged at the absurdity of giving over my children because of this separation. Angry enough to want to smash things but vented through tears.

Later I calmed down and thought about the Run Away comment. It made me angry at first, and I thought of all sorts of retorts, then more constructive comments like "If there's something about my behavior that you don't understand, read the last card I gave you again." But then I thought about it more and think that it's a sign that she is thinking about me and noticing that I am not there, and that the most effective thing is for me to say nothing at all. It was her basically picking a fight, and I refused to bite.

The kid exchanges are where I've been most vulnerable and wound up getting the most upset, so next time I'll drop them off rather than let WW linger around the house.

WW starts new job tomorrow. Hopefully the pressure of single parenthood will make it more difficult for the A to continue and some more reality will set in.

I am strong. But sometimes angry. And I miss my wife and family.
Posted By: believer Re: End of Week 3 - 01/29/07 04:53 PM
You are doing very well. I know how hard it is. And it is good that you didn't mention the Plan B letter. When I told my husband to refer to it, he played dumb and asked "What letter?".

As for your mom, it is better that she continue a relationship with your wife. I'm happy that she is able to be pleasant to her.

Hang in there. Plan B usually takes several months before you see results.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: End of Week 3 - 01/29/07 05:00 PM
She doesn't like Plan B...that's what that snarky comment was about. It is having the desired effect on her.

Good idea about dropping them off next time.

I just want you to know that I keep up w/ your thread and am praying for you.

~ Marsh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: End of Week 3 - 01/29/07 05:56 PM
Thanks very much for listening and offering support. I am still moved when I read that someone is listening. I try to do that for others but find that I'm not particularly confident in my advice and that sometimes it's just too much--I can only deal with my own pain.

I'm thinking back to my last session with my IC. I really really like her, but there's not a whole lot she can help me with at this point. I know more about infidelity than she does now and have a better understanding of WS behavior and how to deal with it. Anyway, we were talking about priorities. My company announced major layoffs last week. We had known for a couple of months when the announcement was going to be made, but I said that going into the day, I hadn't been particularly worried because my job was down on my list of priorities (my work group was spared). IC then asked me "So what are your priorities. WW is #1 . . . " and I quickly agreed and said kids were #2.

And so now I'm thinking about it. It's one of those no-wrong-answer things, but WW and the marriage probably shouldn't be my #1 priority right now. Reducing that is part of Plan B, right? Maybe it's my own withdrawal, but the marriage is foremost in my mind. That and the wrongness of the separation and what WW is doing are what I'm most interested in talking about.

Professionally, I solve complex problems that other people can't, and I have a tendency to immerse myself in the problem. Accepting that I couldn't solve this problem the way I wanted to was a huge step for me, because I couldn't think of any examples of serious problems I encountered and couldn't solve (and so this feels like failure, which I hate--don't worry, I understand enough to know that it isn't my failure). One of my friends (similarly wired) advised me to turn my problem solving focus to doing the best for my children. I think that this is excellent advice but am struggling with how to apply it so far. I guess I'm still struggling with how I'm supposed to think right now.

Lots of rambling. Wishing everyone a good week.

SDG
Posted By: believer Re: End of Week 3 - 01/29/07 06:12 PM
I think you have to realize that you are doing exceptionally well. You are following the MB program closely, and doing all that you can do. You are doing much better than most.

Trust in the program, and let time do its part. Plan B is great because you get some distance and perspective. But it often seems like nothing is happening, day after day after day. That is the difficult part.
Posted By: miketc Re: End of Week 3 - 01/29/07 06:21 PM
sd,

I just want to let you know that I'm listening and understand fully of what you're going through. I'm in Plan B about the same time as you (1/5) when my WW moved out on Christmas (12/25) and here is my priority:

#1 ME, ME and ME
#2 My Children
#3 My finance
#4 My House or up keep of it
#5 My parents

What I'm trying to say is that in Plan B, WW should not be on your list of priority at all. Once you get your WW off your top 5 list of priority, I guarantee you'll feel much better yourself and your situation. Just my $0.02.

Good luck and hang in there,
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: End of Week 3 - 01/30/07 01:56 AM
Agree with miketc, your WW is not a priority now in Plan B. YOU are number one and your children are #1.5.

Have pillow fights with your son; build forts out of sheets and pillows with both of the kids; give lots of laughter and hugs and kisses. Be as active a participant in their every day. You are SILENTLY working on the M by being in Plan B.

I have followed Plan B pretty well. There has been broken silence, but that is mostly resolved. I have had bad days, too, as witnessed by my most recent post. I'm doing better now, and tomorrow I will be right as rain. The gravity of everything will weigh on you now and then, but that is only when you move away from the present and focus on the future or past. Try to stay focused with today.

You WW's comment was meant to get a rise out of you; the truth is, she wouldn't say a thing if your plan B resolve didn't bother her. She wants it ALL, cake eating, fence sitting, ALL, and you won't allow that. That's good. That's to be respected...

You are doing great!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: End of Week 3 - 01/30/07 05:34 AM
Thanks, guys, for the pep talks and advice.

WW started a new job today (which I think is good) and already has a scheduling conflict with the kids. She sent an email telling me about a morning meeting on Wednesday and could she drop the kids off at my house to get DS to school. I guess the real Plan B thing would have been to say no, but I emailed her she could drop the kids off. It didn't take her long to encounter the advantage of two-parent familes, though.

I am strong.
Posted By: miketc Re: End of Week 3 - 01/30/07 02:21 PM
I would handle it differently; I would said NO. She needs to live with being a single parent and results of her A. I like to hear how the experts here would handle it.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: End of Week 3 - 01/30/07 08:41 PM
Clearly, the dark, hard-nosed Plan B thing would be to say no. She knows that my parents are here, however, and they offered to help if necessary, and to say no under those conditions seems a little too much like punishment (both to her and the kids). It's a one-time thing as far as I'm concerned.

And she's not stupid--the effect of single parenthood won't be lost on her, even if it is somewhat diluted. I'd be surprised if she felt good about asking me for help.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: End of Week 3 - 01/31/07 12:08 AM
I can ensure you that she did not want to ask you for help, but don't let her get used to it.

I have asked WH to take son a couple of times, one overnight during the week (I was a bit unglued--didn't tell him that, though), and one night to keep him a little longer than usual. I was thinking about that today. I have my son 12days out of every 14, and sometimes get a bit exhausted. I don't like asking him for help. What if I get sick, though? Ugh, I don't like it either.

I guess this one time is fine, a bit soon in the whole 'new job' thing, but fine. Don't let ANYTHING become a habit, whether your parents are here or not, she should figure out what to do, leaving you as a last resort...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: End of Week 3 - 01/31/07 06:49 AM
Nope. No habits. One time thing.

Back to dark now.

SL, your suggestions about pillow fights and blanket tents and laughter were perfect for me. It was a bit of a Duh moment, but one gets lost in their own thoughts.

I am so stoked for you right now.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: End of Week 3 - 02/01/07 06:42 AM
I got the kids back today, which is great. In a moment of weakness after the kids were asleep (and my parents are still here), I drove over to WW's apartment. The lights were on, but there were two cars in the garage.

I wanted confirmation again, and I got it. I'm strangely okay with it. It really wasn't a surprise--I expected it. It doesn't change anything about what I'm doing. If anything, it strengthens my dark Plan B resolve.

Checking up on her is another habit I'm not going to get into.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: End of Week 3 - 02/01/07 03:17 PM
hey guy,

Yeah, stay away from those habits of checking up. I was tempted a number of times to drive by where my H was staying, and NEVER did. I know you feel like you were okay with it, but clearly, Mr. Plan B, you are not. So, *THWACK*, STOP THAT.

I only had a few TM and email conversations with WH regarding business only, and even those hurt me, because I expected something. I didn't ever get it. Well, I got it now, but I DEFINITELY wasn't expecting it. Just stay dark. Get used to it, settle in, it's early yet. One thing Jennifer told me is that these things ALWAYS end, especially in a family situation.

It really is YOUR choice in the end. The more you stop checking up, the more your LB will still contain some funds, and the more likely YOU will choose to recover. If you let your love turn to disgust, and hate, your family will never be whole again. That is a heavy burden, I KNOW, but it is yours to carry right now...

Really look at those kids and figure out how to father them and be their daddy. Make them smile, and it comes back ten fold for you. Let them in. Let them and YOU be your focus right now. Hang out with yourself, figure YOU out, too.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: End of Week 3 - 02/01/07 05:08 PM
Yep. I was expecting a 2x4, which I deserve. I hurt myself, and it's exactly the kind of hurt I'm supposed to be preventing. I guess I meant that I was okay in the sense that I didn't do anything *really* stupid (and about a thousand things came to mind) in response. But, obviously, I hate it.

Previously, I decided not to bother changing the locks on my house unless WW starts abusing the access, and she hasn't. Then this morning I had just about decided to go ahead and change them, but now I'm thinking that that response is more about retribution (for something I did to myself).

I know what I need to do, and I'm doing 90% of it pretty well, I think. I talked the other day about priority, and that wasn't quite right. I have the priorities right, it's my thoughts that give me trouble. The M occupies too much of my active thinking. I need to change the thinking to my kids and myself. It's hard.

Thanks, as always, for the pep talk.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: End of Week 3 - 02/01/07 05:22 PM
I know, it SUX, just plain SUX.

Think of driving by that place and KNOW that you deserve your W, not some doped out wayward piece of crap.

Like I said, she thinks of you every day, she thinks of what she is doing, and can't stay there too long, because she'll KNOW she's wrong, and WON'T be able to justify her actions with entitlement.

I'd love to tell you that thoughts of your W and WW stop, but I don't think they will, BUT, you will learn how to process them more quickly. I would actually shake my head sometimes when thoughts of WH entered my mind...I think my son thought I was developing a tick...

STAY DARK, be quiet, rest...Try to have fun, laugh, lean your head back and laugh.
Posted By: miketc Re: End of Week 3 - 02/01/07 07:19 PM
sd,

Change that lock, mentally it will give you more power and enable you to detach from WW. No more drive by!! Take care of yourself and have fun with the little ones because they deserve your attentions. Stay busy, take up a hobby or exercise.

Stay dark my friend.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: End of Week 3 - 02/01/07 07:38 PM
Oh, I agree with mike, definitely change the locks. I did, and it made me feel a bit better. It's hard to explain, but I felt like i was in the drivers' seat when I did that.

My WH was entering the home when I was not there.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: End of Week 3 - 02/01/07 08:25 PM
Okay. I'd about convinced myself I only wanted to out of retaliation, but I'll go ahead and do it this weekend.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: End of Week 3 - 02/01/07 08:59 PM
It wasn't about retalition, it's about enforcing the boundary of NC with OP or you are out of my life, that includes where I live, where I work, my family, my friends, my financial support, ALL of that. Again, my WH was entering the house. I think when I changed the locks it made things a bit more concrete. ONLY MY SPOUSE BELONGS HERE!!!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: End of Week 3 - 02/01/07 11:11 PM
That's a good point, and one I'm still mulling over. Changing the locks would enhance the Plan B and send a message. On the downside, it could make things really ugly when there currently isn't any reason to. E.g., she didn't take much stuff from the house. If I change the locks, will she feel the need to come back for everything she could possibly need (which could be a big hassle)? I'm not sure about the legality, either. It is still her house, too. Plus, I asked her to let me know when she was planning to be in the house and why, and so far she has done so. If that becomes a problem, I will absolutely change the locks, but it really hasn't been a problem.

It's like letting her dropp the kids off the other day--I'm not sure I want my plan B to be so dark that it comes across mean-spirited. Being cool and letting her eat static is the biggest part of the plan, I think.

Not sure. Like I said, I'm still mulling the locks over.
Posted By: believer Re: End of Week 3 - 02/01/07 11:30 PM
If you live in California, you can't change the locks legally, because it is a community property state. I wanted to change the locks because my WH WAS taking things, and my attorney told me I couldn't.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: End of Week 3 - 02/01/07 11:42 PM
SD is for San Diego, so I guess I won't change the locks. If it becomes a problem, I can ask for her keys back or demand keys to her apartment, but, like I said, it hasn't been a problem.

Thanks for the info. I don't really want to talk with my lawyer if I don't have to.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: End of Week 3 - 02/02/07 12:24 AM
Well, don't get yourself into legal trouble, certainly.

It sounds like she's following the rules, but one thing I saw in your post that you may want to think about

It's like letting her dropp the kids off the other day--I'm not sure I want my plan B to be so dark that it comes across mean-spirited. Being cool and letting her eat static is the biggest part of the plan, I think.


Plan B, when done correctly, comes off as Plan B, not mean spirited. Dark means that, DARK. There is no need for you to SEE her, or vice versa. Well, there's a need, but this is not the time to address it.

I'm a little wounded right now, so forgive me if I overstepped. These Plans work, for you and for your spouse...Show strength in the face of adversity, and she will respect that, she may not like it, and may fight it, but she WILL respect it.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: End of Week 3 - 02/02/07 05:31 AM
It's cool. I think it's been over two and a half weeks since I made any eye contact with her--about that long since I saw her at all. About that long since I spoke to her, and that was maybe ten words on the phone. I'm dark.

When I talked with Jennifer, she emphasized that Plan B can feel like punishment (and can be mis-applied as punishment, too), and punishment is not what it's about. I'm cognizant of that, which is where the "mean-spirited" thinking comes from.

I'm dark. And staying away from her place.
Posted By: believer Re: End of Week 3 - 02/02/07 05:48 AM
I think you are doing fine. Plan B is extremely difficult with young children. Like Bob Pure says, you are doing a hero's gig. Hang in there and stay in the battle.
Posted By: fightingback Re: End of Week 3 - 02/02/07 01:44 PM
Quote
I'm strangely okay with it. It really wasn't a surprise--I expected it.

hey sdg, I have said those exact words...what is scary is that you get so used to the garbage...that it almost just washes over you...still causes the gut wrenching nausea..but not the full on panic like it did in the beginning...I guess we really will never be OK with it...its just that we get used to it...expect the pain...and keep going back for more....this is the cycle WE have control over stopping...but I know...easier said than done.....I am SOOOOO there.

Quote
I'd about convinced myself I only wanted to out of retaliation......I'm not sure I want my plan B to be so dark that it comes across mean-spirited. Being cool and letting her eat static is the biggest part of the plan, I think.


I am having the same thought process about locks...so far my WS has been respectful...I also have my MIL downstairs so I will know if she is here. But all of a sudden everyone see's me as the heavy. I KNOW what I am doing is right..just..self preservation... but WS sees things differently...see's me as being stubborn ...resentful...petty...If I change the locks, to WS it will look like punishment..she will be oh so offended as if I can't trust her...uh..yeah!!!!!

WS doesn't understand me...S does sometimes...you never know who's comming out to play(WS or S) I trust my S that she will respect my boundaries..but that damn WS keeps sticking her head out of the sand....what to do????
Posted By: sdguy038 Plan B--one month in - 02/02/07 06:23 PM
One of the things Jennifer told me is that upon entering Plan B, WW would accuse me of being immature, and while she hasn't come right out and said it, it's pretty clear from WW's occasional snide remarks that she thinks I'm being immature. I don't care. I know that what I'm doing is in the best interest of my children, my WW, and myself.

If I thought she wasn't fogged and was making rational decisions, I might do things differently (and if anything, that's the nagging, irrational fear. What if she's better off with someone else and what we had *isn't* worth rebuilding). But WW's behaviors are *exactly* those of a fogged WS. What she says, what she does, how she lies, everything. So I'm doing Plan B, and I'm confident about it. If WW doesn't like it, tough. She's insane. If there were anyone else that doesn't like it (and saw me as the heavy), I don't know that I would care, but I have taken great pains to explain to people how romantic affairs work and why I'm doing what I'm doing. My ILs know what I'm doing and approve.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you should try to be confident in what you're doing. It's the right thing, and as we've seen with SL (and others), it can work.

Today on my way to work, I felt like I honestly don't care whether she comes back or not. If she does, great. If not, that's okay, too. I'll be fine either way.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Plan B--one month in - 02/03/07 02:25 AM
you go SDG....you sound really strong today!!!!
kepp on keeping on!!!!!1 and I am soooo happy for SL, I haven't had time to post to her thread...going there next..

SL if you are around Congrats!!!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Plan B--one month in - 02/04/07 02:47 AM
Strong one day, weak the next. Today not good. Got a venomous voice mail from WW last night. First told me that the kids were fine, in case I care. Then said she found out I called OMW last week and told me to stop. Also wanted to know why I wanted to know what OM's car looks like (a casual question I had asked OMW--one that she asked me first). Told me to let it go.

So, this is Fogtalk, but it still hurts. I know it's fogtalk. I know she is lashing out because she feels threatened or is hurting about something. I don't give a rat's bladder about whether they want me talking to OMW (I mean, I know that they don't, because OM is still lying to OMW that the affair is over, or was when I last talked to her). What bothers me is that OMW told OM anything at all. And what else did she tell him? Plan B? Does WW view look at this as me still trying to hold onto her, and now she's trying to push me away harder?

I think that I won't talk to OMW anymore, because I'm not sure that I can trust her. I certainly know enough not to respond to WW's tirade.

And I know that I should ignore this and stay in a dark Plan B. Protect myself. Put her out of my mind. But it's hard, and I am down. Plus, I hurt my back and am hobbling around in pain.

Tomorrow will be better.
Posted By: believer Re: Plan B--one month in - 02/04/07 03:25 AM
"And I know that I should ignore this and stay in a dark Plan B. Protect myself. Put her out of my mind. But it's hard, and I am down."

Exacttly right, SD. Sorry about your back. That is miserable. How did you hurt it?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Plan B--one month in - 02/04/07 03:41 AM
I've been low-grade back trouble for some time--minor sciatic pain. MRI said herniated disk but not serious. I haven't gotten in to see ortho yet, though. So I should be taking it easy more, but it's hard to live that way. Today I did some drywall work on the ceiling, did some strenuous creeping vine separation, fertilized my roses with bone meal (hands and knees). But was turning slightly with a bottle of RoundUp in my hand when I finally felt something. I'm pretty sure it's muscular, but that doesn't make it hurt any less right now.

I'm feeling lonely and probably more than a little sorry for myself tonight, too. But I have gotten validation from plenty of people just over the past couple of days, including offers from a couple of the neighborhood moms to help with kid transfers (to avoid contact). They also said that they were really happy I was the one still in the house.

Yes, this sucks very much. I don't want to live like this. I didn't deserve this. My kids didn't deserve this. I want this to be over. I want my wife and family back. I don't want to feel like this.

But

I know that W may never come back, and if she doesn't, I will be fine, if not better off. I may not want her back anyway. I know that I will be okay, and my kids will be okay, because they have me.

I will be strong for my children.
I will be strong for WW.
I will be strong for myself.

At least, so long as my back stops hurting.
Posted By: believer Re: Plan B--one month in - 02/04/07 04:19 AM
Sorry to hear about your back. Hopefully it is just muscular. My back goes out from time to time, and it is just like you say - I can do heavy work, and just moving slightly wrong will throw it out.

In another year they are going to have some kind of laser treatment, so don't get any surgery if you can help it. I saw a TV special on it, and the doc said to hold off if possible. This new thing is going to be the miracle cure.

I know this stuff is hard, but hang in there. Chances are excellent that your wife will come back. If not, our MB men always do very well finding a good partner.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Plan B--one month in - 02/04/07 10:21 PM
sdg....are you supposed to be doing all that with disc involvement???be careful.


Quote
I will be strong for my children.
I will be strong for WW.
I will be strong for myself.


be strong for your W she is the one that needs you, WW can go to ****!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

you are strong...but that doesn't mean this doesn't bite!!! you will get through...take care of that back of yours
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Plan B--one month in - 02/05/07 12:00 AM
I got the kids back today and found out they had "guests" at WW's apartment last night. People they "met" in the park. It was clearly OM and his two daughters. This, of course, made me furious.

WW had told my mother that she had no intention of exposing our kids to OM, that it would be completely inappropriate. Even MIL thought that WW would not do this, or at least this soon. So I called MIL and told her.

Then, OMW called me. She wanted to warn me that, based on stuff she leaked to OM, WW thinks I have been following her. I told OMW about last night, and she was furious, too. The call was interrupted by my neighbor the chiropractor (back improved, and MRI results are not serious).

Then WW calls me to ask whether or not I've been following her. I tell her no, I am not and have not followed her. WW says she didn't think so but had heard otherwise. She then asked me how my back was (!) and something about our son's school.

I called OMW back, and in the interim she has talked with OM. OM told her that last night was all about hurting me (in retaliation for me following?) and not anything else.

I calmed down a bit, then called my mom, who is actually at my kids' swim lessons with WW. Told mom what I had been told. Then asked to talk with WW and told her what OMW told me (that last night was about hurting me). WW said no, that's not what it was about. Said that OMW is not reliable source. I said that what happened last night only hurts our kids and then got off the phone.

Damn. I shouldn't have let myself get drawn into the drama. I'm going to calm down, not talk to her anymore, and recognize that their behavior is totally fogged. Madness.

Other advice?
Posted By: believer Re: Plan B--one month in - 02/05/07 12:17 AM
"WW said no, that's not what it was about. Said that OMW is not reliable source."

LOL - And your WW and OM ARE reliable sources?????

I'm not surprised at all. For some reason the waywards always want to drag their children into the mess.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Plan B--one month in - 02/05/07 05:03 AM
I've said it before, but the actions of WS's would be comical if they weren't so sad and destructive. I'm not surprised--it was only a matter of time until she inflicted OM on the kids.

WW expressed to my mom that she's frustrated with my lack of communication. Which is good. Asking about my back shows that she misses having me as a friend and notices the lack of communication.

I'm exhausted after all the drama today, but if anything I feel better because I feel like I have the upper hand again. I didn't really feel that way after the voice mail the other day, but now I do.
Posted By: sdguy038 Drama - 02/05/07 06:06 AM
WW is frustrated with my lack of communication. Thinks that me talking through my parents is a crutch and that I will have to communicate more with her, at least about the kids.

All sorts of things I could communicate.

Me: I hear that what happened last night (kids meeting OM) was about hurting me.
WW: No, that's not what it was about.
Me could have said: Then what was it about?

Or

DS thinks that you just met Them at the park and invited them back to your apartment. Explain to me how this is good parenting. Or how this is not lying to your children.

Or

My mother tells me you want me to communicate more about the kids. So, tonight, when we told DD that tomorrow is a Mommy Day, DD said "I hate Mommy days." Is that the kind of thing you wanted to communicate about?

But, just say nothing, right?
Posted By: sdguy038 Depression - 02/05/07 11:48 PM
Okay, so I'm pretty depressed today. I want to respond.

I'm thinking that what OMW told me is the truth--that for OM, it was about hurting me. OM really really doesn't like me talking to OMW. I don't think that WW wants to hurt me, so this makes me think that OM is the one pulling the strings here and WW is the follower (I'm pretty sure of that, actually). Under these circumstances, does any of this (WW using her kids to get at me, if she can figure that out) help her see what a sh#t OM is? Maybe a simple email like:

OM to OMW: "I only did that to hurt SDGuy." OM doesn't like me talking with OMW, so he convinces you to use our children against me. Nice.

But that would be using reason, wouldn't it?

Man, this sucks.
Posted By: believer Re: Depression - 02/05/07 11:56 PM
Don't respond. All that does is prolong the affair by playing you against the infidels.

You could get something in writing that says the children are not to be around any "friend" of the opposite sex.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Depression - 02/06/07 12:16 AM
Hey guy,

Look, one small little thwack and then I'll be done. WAAAAAAAAY too much talking going on between you two.

Stop it!

Okay, now on to other things. The things that your WW will say are horrible, so think of Plan B in terms of saving up that love bank and keeping from the destruction of an enemy (the wayward). You are going to lose it this way. Don't talk to her, not for any reason. I don't hear any real COMMUNICATION here. I hear WW spewing venom in the cover of fog.

I want to hear you talking about longing to speak to your W, not depressed because of the talking you have done. Separate yourself from this. Be good to yourself.

About talking to OMW, I think it is good, on occassion, but you don't want any implications coming from that R either. Get yourself out of that triangle, too. See, you are COMPOUNDING the pain and destruction by knowing what OM thinks and his motivations, and that's doubly bad. NO MORE, okay. DARK DARK DARK. TM's if you must, NO PHONE CALLS. Lunamare works with her H through voicemail. The less that you hear her voice or stand in her path, the longer Plan B will take, and the effectiveness will cease...

I'm so happy to see all of the Plan B'ers here talking with eachother on your thread. I'm still going to be on GQII, because there is so much more traffic here.

About the back pain...I have had problems on and off for years. Mostly muscular, so I get what pain you must suffer with each set back. It's okay. Also, I found when I was in a better state of mind, my body responded in kind. AND, take it easy there, soldier, that list of chores you performed is pretty long, maybe break it up a bit...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Depression - 02/06/07 12:45 AM
Thanks, guys. No communication. Dark. What about telling her mom? Can I tell on her? Her mom still hasn't told WW about her own marital issues and what happened to her. Maybe this would be a kick to get her to do something?

It was just the two brief calls yesterday--no more than a minute each, but your point is taken.

The depression is about the state of things, and that my W is so far gone from me. The helplessness. I think I talked before about never encountering a serious problem I couldn't solve. A related issue is that I've never felt so helpless about something before. In the past, I've always known that if I didn't like it, I could pull up and do X. But I don't like any of the X options. It's humbling to be so helpless.

As I type that, I think maybe there are some 2x4 thwacks for me lurking in what I just said. Not sure.

Believer, WW would never agree to the "no friends" thing. I suggested it at one point. Others have suggested that I start dating so that WW can see what it feels like. That's not the answer either.

I saw my neighbor/chiropractor this afternoon, and the back doesn't appear to be anything serious, but I will getting some visits with him, so that should help. He told me that emotional stress exacerbates back trouble, which I have no problem believing.

Thanks again for listening. I think I will set something up with Jennifer.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Depression - 02/06/07 12:51 AM
NO 2x4's here, you are learning about control and it's illusion, and that can be devastating. YOU are not helpless, never have been, but you cannot control this R.

When the time comes, the WW will be gone, and your W will agree to the 'no friens' thing. It's a clear boundary for me, and I couldn't see going into recovery without it...

You have 1 month is Plan B and should be settling down a bit. It sounds like it. You sound like you are doing a lot of thinking about you, and that is great.

Glad to hear the back isn't serious. Take it easy...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Depression - 02/06/07 05:48 AM
I was talking with my best friend at work last week, and he commented that it probably couldn't get much worse, and I said "Well, if she starts exposing the kids to the OM, that would be worse." And then finding out that my children were used (by him, if not by WW) to hurt me was pretty bad.

I see that the wise thing to do probably would have been when my kids told me that they had met some people in the park who came back to Mommy's apartment, to just say "That's nice." For all that I can do anything about it. Since I am human, I couldn't quite pull that off (I am not beating myself up about this, though).

I called MIL and told her what I knew, because I think they deserve to know how screwed up their daughter is, and that she is allowing their grandchildren to be used. MIL talked with WW yesterday and thinks that she is listening a little bit, which is good. MIL gets it.

And, excellent catch, FB. I'm strong for my W. WW can go to he##.

Tomorrow will be better.
Posted By: sdguy038 Plan B - 02/07/07 07:13 PM
I saw my IC yesterday, and she reiterated much of the advice I got here (avoid contact with WW, don't do drive-bys, don't get too deep into discussions with OMW). I've calmed down and have mostly pulled out of the depressed state. I look forward to getting my kids back today and have been thinking about fun things to do with them.

I'm still working on the whole how-to-think thing.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Plan B - 02/08/07 01:54 PM
Quote
I see that the wise thing to do probably would have been when my kids told me that they had met some people in the park who came back to Mommy's apartment, to just say "That's nice." For all that I can do anything about it. Since I am human, I couldn't quite pull that off (I am not beating myself up about this, though).

SDG, I was faced with this the first day my WS moved out, she had OP and my kids over her apartment for a "party" the kids called it. I was freaked. in panic...but then I realized I had zero control over it. it really bites when you cannot do anything to effect change in a situation that causes you pain.

its one thing to say, yes I can stay away from her to protect my heart, but another when your children are thrust into the madness, your papa bear instincts come out. and those are strong. I have though about a restraining order against OP, but then thought that might seem a little "crazy ex-wife"

I don't believe it is healthy for my children to be around OP, and I have no control over it, but what I do have control over is being there for my children. asking them about how they feel about all of this and really listening. IMHO, kids can get through anything if they have the neccessary support. so even if I cannot prevent them from OP exposure, I can help them cope and deal with the horrible things that are happening. thats where my strength comes in, and I know my kids feel that.

sdg, you are not helpless, you just have to rethink your methods and find a new way to accomplish the same goals.


Quote
I'm still working on the whole how-to-think thing.


what does this mean, I am intrigued.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Plan B - 02/08/07 07:07 PM
I have a really active mind and tend to beat my head against problems until they crack, so trying to figure out what to do with my thoughts has been challenging. "Think about something else" is the easy thing to say but is harder to apply. And so I find myself wondering what kind of self-talk I should be using to deal with the wrongness of this whole situation.

"This situation is temporary. The affair will fall apart, and W will come back to the marriage."

or

"This situation is temporary. I hope the affair will fall apart and W will come back to the marriage. If not, I know that I and the kids will be fine."

or

"This situation is temporary. The affair will fall apart at some point, in the meantime WW can do whatever she wants. I will wait for a while. If she wants to come back to the marriage, I will see whether that's what I want."

or

"This is reality. I should make the best of it and stop thinking about W."

There are subtle differences in these, mostly in terms of how much vulnerability I allow myself but also how open I am leaving the door. I know I'm overanalyzing it, but that's what I do. It's something to figure out for myself, but the most common advice I get (including from Jennifer yesterday) is stop thinking about it and do something else. I get this, but it is hard to apply.

A lot of what I post here is me thinking out loud, trying to get stuff out of my head--a bit like a journal. I think the answer is "Yes, this situation is wrong. Yes, you can see the solution, but only WW can apply the solution, and there isn't anything you can do to make her do that. Plan B is the best thing you can do right now, and it takes time and strength. You need to be strong for your children and your wife and yourself. Thinking about it all the time is going to make you crazy, so don't do it. Don't get involved in things that are going to make you think about WW. Think about your kids and being a great dad for them. Think about (and do) things that will be fun for you. Calm down. Be still. You are doing a great job--the very best that you can, which is all that anyone can do. You are not losing. This is not your fault."
Posted By: Jayban Re: Plan B - 02/08/07 07:23 PM
Quote
Yes, this situation is wrong. Yes, you can see the solution, but only WW can apply the solution, and there isn't anything you can do to make her do that. Plan B is the best thing you can do right now, and it takes time and strength. You need to be strong for your children and your wife and yourself. Thinking about it all the time is going to make you crazy, so don't do it. Don't get involved in things that are going to make you think about WW. Think about your kids and being a great dad for them. Think about (and do) things that will be fun for you. Calm down. Be still. You are doing a great job--the very best that you can, which is all that anyone can do. You are not losing. This is not your fault.


You have answered yourself SD, I couldn't have put it better. I wish I had an answer for you in this, I don't have the Plan B experience but the feelings one has when "alone" are much the same. I've felt them as well. I tell myself that I will make it. I think of why I'm doing it. I tell myself to never give up hope until the ink is dry on the divorce decree. I tell myself that I love my W, not this WW, and I'm suffering for my W because she needs me to rescue her.

I do this everyday, it seems. It's kept me going this long, which is only the beginning. (6 weeks since separation, 1 week since D-Day & exposure)

This too shall pass.
Posted By: sdguy038 WW doesn't like Plan B - 02/08/07 11:40 PM
I got an email about kid stuff today. To set it up, my parents are spending a month in a beach condo. The week of President's Day, my son (7) is on spring break. Also, my brother and his family will be here staying at the condo. My son loves his cousins and wants to (and is invited to)spend the whole week at the condo. Monday and Tuesday of that week are "her" days. Here's the email:

"Yes I told DS7 it was ok since he has the week off and he said his cousins were going to be there. I also told him I need to hear from an adult what the plan was which is why I asked you since you are his father I thought maybe you could have mentioned something. As for DD3 it is sort of up to your parents and DD. Of course I would have both of them but since it is a vacation week and according to DS7 the cousins will be there things are different. Do you parents want her that much? Will you be there? Needs more discussion before even offing the option to her. She will probably want to stay there if she knows DS7 is."

She is clearly frustrated that I won't be a happy co-parent with her, but I refuse. I think I will tell my mom that she can work out the details. Any other suggestions?
Posted By: fightingback Re: WW doesn't like Plan B - 02/09/07 11:15 PM
Quote
She is clearly frustrated that I won't be a happy co-parent with her, but I refuse. I think I will tell my mom that she can work out the details. Any other suggestions?


sdg, what did jennifer say about this type thing??? I am unsure as far as this goes but I can see where WS's would see this as petty and childish. I don't know how I feel about it actually. I believe in MB principles so I am inclined to take it as valuable, but I question it. is it realistic to never have contact with one's spouse where the children are concerned, is it truly in the best interest of the children to have parents that do not communicate? I fully understand the reason for plan B but what if things move along into D? Is it reasonable and beneficial for children to have parents that never collaborate about what is best for them? forever? if not forever, how do you decide what the endpoint is?? if the endpoint is reconcilliation then maybe it is worth it to have a 2 parent house hold. but what if the endpoint is D? how is this putting the children first?
Posted By: nia17 Re: WW doesn't like Plan B - 02/09/07 11:23 PM
years ago my FBIL did what i now think of as plan B on my SIL. I had never heard of MB...i thought he was being childish.
nobody had any clue what he was doing.....it seemed so odd...it made the family take sides against him....even though she was one who had the affair and filed for divorce.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: WW doesn't like Plan B - 02/09/07 11:31 PM
I don't think a total blackout in Plan B is necessary. I believe that communication about the children is paramount, and should be discussed, WAY ahead of time when NECESSARY. When vacation time hits, HAVE A SCHEDULE, PERIOD. Don't veer from it much, even if the children seem unhappy. IT IS STABILITY, for both the children and YOU.

Now, if you can discuss this over email or through intermediary, and work it out, that is best. No need to meet up. Work with the schedule, and you'll have no real questions here (or excuses...)
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: WW doesn't like Plan B - 02/10/07 12:23 AM
That's pretty much what Jennifer said. A total blackout is not realistic, so try to limit contact to email to protect myself. Which is what I'm doing, except for when I get sucked out of it, like last weekend. I am gradually recovering from that, and Jennifer emphasized (like people here) don't expose myself to that kind of mess. Jennifer was actually a lot less draconian about plan B than some. She said a reiteration of the Plan B letter (complete with this is not what I want, the door is open, etc) along with candy from the kids for Valentines day would even be a good idea (so long as I don't resent doing it). Not sure whether or not I will do it.

I have given quite a bit of thought regarding what's in the best interest of the kids with respect to Plan B, and it comes down to short-term good and long-term good. In the short-term, one could make an argument that what would be best for the kids would be for the parents to act like everything is okay so that they can adjust to the situation. This is clearly what WS's want. For me, however, that would be like lying to my kids, and I won't do it. My kids know that I am angry, they know that this is not what I want, they know that I still love their mommy, but they also know that everything will be okay (and that Dad has a plan. I forget whose excellent advice that was. Believer?).

Does this mean that the kids might suffer a little more in the short-term? Probably, but whose fault is that? What she's doing is how many times more destructive than plan B?

And so I subscribe to the long-term good. My WW is clearly a prototypical fogged-out WS, so I'm working plan B, because there's a realistic chance that it will work. Eventually, I will stop doing plan B and switch to plan D, and *then* I know that I can adopt a friendly attitude toward WW, because that will be in the best interest of my kids, and because I don't want to stay angry forever.

I patiently explain to anyone who wants to know what Plan B is and how it works. And how WS's work, too, because no one understands that, either.

I think I could go ahead and be friendly toward her now, which is what she thinks she wants, but it would include me closing the door on the relationship now. And I might go Plan FU in the process.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: WW doesn't like Plan B - 02/10/07 01:21 AM
It sounds like you've got a good handle on your Plan. Like I said, some email contact, strictly business, will help to iron out any childcare and financial issues; other than that, no contact is really best for you, and in the long run, for your children. They will understand what self-respect looks like. They will understand boundaries, because, over time, you will explain things.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: WW doesn't like Plan B - 02/10/07 10:21 PM
I think I have a pretty good handle on what I need to do, but I wish I was better at seeing what's coming. Maybe after the slip last weekend, I won't fall into the trap again. Jennifer gave me some tips for what to do and how to respond and how to think. I'll post them if anyone is interested.

And when I said I wasn't going to be the happy co-parent, I meant the one who smiles with the WS and acts like nothing is wrong. I will co-parent, but it will be via email unless there's an emergency. The kind of stuff she wants to know is what they had for dinner and about sniffles, and if she wants to know that then she should be at home like a good mother would be. Like my W would be. Man, do I miss my W.
Posted By: sdguy038 I want to reach out - 02/12/07 05:06 AM
Today was the first kid-transfer day that didn't leave me totally bent. Sunday is the only day we have to actually come in contact to transfer, and my mom has been doing the actual transfer part. Three weeks ago I was angry at the whole situation, two weeks ago because WW said "run away" as I left the room when she showed up and then lingered too long, and last week because of them getting the kids together. This week I was determined to not to freak out, and I pulled it off. The transfer was uneventful (I stayed in the car, so no contact).

We came home, then my parents went back to their condo. I did some stuff around the house that I wanted to do. . . but now I am lonely and depressed. The day has been gray and rainy and "cold," which may be contributing, but I really miss my W. I wonder whether I will ever see her again, whether I'm just wasting my time. I have an urge to reach out and . . . what, I don't know. I'm going to resist. I think there may come a time for that, but this isn't it.
Posted By: fightingback Re: I want to reach out - 02/12/07 05:48 PM
Quote
The transfer was uneventful (I stayed in the car, so no contact).

no contact is hard remember. maybe you are coming off of the drama. even negative attention is attention from your WW. its like you set your self back into withdrawal.

remember grace under pressure...thats what you are trying to convey. great job. don't assume to know what is happening to her when you have nothing to go on. think of it this way. You are showing her your strength, you don't need her, you are getting on with your life. and you are dying inside. whatever she shows you is not really what is going on inside of her either. don't assume she is living the life of riley. she may show cool exterior but you know your plan B is working. you know it is getting to her. you know that it is!!!

Quote
Jennifer gave me some tips for what to do and how to respond and how to think. I'll post them if anyone is interested.


yes, yes yes, post them:)
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: I want to reach out - 02/12/07 06:30 PM
Any advice you get from Jennifer is most welcomed here, especially for those who haven't counseled yet, or REALLY cannot afford it.

You did great, BTW, with the transfer. It's [email]d@mn[/email] tough, I know, but you can do it.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: I want to reach out - 02/12/07 06:53 PM
Quote
I think I have a pretty good handle on what I need to do, but I wish I was better at seeing what's coming. Maybe after the slip last weekend, I won't fall into the trap again. Jennifer gave me some tips for what to do and how to respond and how to think. I'll post them if anyone is interested.


Yes, yes! Please share!
Posted By: InHisCare Re: I want to reach out - 02/12/07 07:16 PM
Just popping in to say..."I hear ya cluckin' big chicken!"

I have almost the exact same feeling with this whole plan B experience. It is almost like I am reading my own thoughts.

Just wanted you to know you are doing great and are on the right track... I'm chugging along right next to you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

IHC
Posted By: sdguy038 Tips from Jennifer - 02/13/07 07:29 AM
The thing that was fresh on my mind when I talked with Jennifer was the interaction I had with WW last weekend about them getting our children together (and the fact that OM told OMW it was only about hurting me). I let myself get dragged into it and was depressed for a couple of days afterwards, so most of what Jennifer tried to help me with was what to do when I get triggered.

And we do get triggered. I've seen people just like me on some of the other Plan B threads, getting sucked into their own versions. We will get triggered. WS's are a thoughtless, insane bunch of people at best and will act out of their own pain and insanity frequently, so one piece of advice I am trying to apply myself is

Know what will trigger you so that you can be ready.

Kids are the most obvious triggers, but, as Jennifer points out, we can't protect our kids all the time under the best of circumstances. We need to be ready when we're triggered, because "If I get involved in their stink, I come out stinky. I'm not going to let that happen, because I need to be strong."

Jennifer recommended constructing a cheat sheet--a piece of paper to refer to when we're triggered. When we are triggered, there is a rush of chemicals to the brain telling us to fight or flight, but what we really need to do is calm down and look at the big picture. So the first thing on the cheat sheet is "Breathe." Deep breathing is one of the best ways to calm down. Also exercise and/or music to get yourself some space so that you can get a look at the big picture.

So you get triggered, and you want to engage with the WS to set things right (How could you do this bla bla bla). But ask yourself--

What would the purpose of engaging be?

Why is that important?


And, most importantly,

Will they listen to me?

This was big for me, because I think that if you can stop yourself long enough to go through this thought process, you'll realize that for the vast majority of the times, there isn't any point in engaging. If you start answering yourself that the purpose is "WS needs to see that" then you know engagement will be a waste of time and energy, so don't do it.

Another thing for the cheat sheet is "I am strong and I have perserverence. A day, a week, a month is nothing compared to the next 30 years, and that's what I'm doing this for."

and

"If I waste all my energy getting involved in the muck that the infidels do, there won't be any energy left for my kids, and they need me to be a strong dad."

Some other miscellaneous bits--Keep busy. You can't think about this 24/7, because then it will move too slowly. This can take a long time. My goal is to have the energy to run the race.

and

You don't know when the alien will leave. Don't second guess when or if the affair will break up.

and, finally, this one for when giving up seems easier (Jennifer told me that her client is the marriage, not me. When she told me what follows, I told her that she was very good):

Imagine that it's your daughter's wedding day. You're walking her down the aisle, and you get to the end, and there's another man there waiting to kiss her, because she has had a step-father for most of her life.

I hope this helps. Let me know if I can clarify anything.

SDG
Posted By: sdguy038 Hard Today - 02/14/07 08:31 PM
A hard couple of days, and I am depressed again. OMW called me and told me that she was on the receiving end of a phone call from WW at 1 am Sat night. WW said that her car had been vandalized and that she knew OMW had done it. Horrible things on both side were said at that point (yes, WW was with OM at the time, and OM had his kids). OMW went over to OM's apartment to collect her kids, but the infidels refused to answer the door and called the police instead.

OMW claims to have not done vandalism and doesn't even know if any took place. So, was this just a ruse to make OMW look crazy in a custody battle? Is my WW that far gone? It makes me sick to my stomach. I have seen the alien emerge and say vicious things when she's pushed toward seeing what she has become, so the things that were said don't really surprise me, but this is a lot of madness.

I know the right answer is to stay out of it and am trying to do it. OMW said she only told me so that I would know in case they tried to blame it on me, and I said that I appreciated it. I gave her the pep talk and pointed her (again) at MB resources. She's on the merry-go-round. OM is totally cake-eating, so I told her she needs to either Plan A or Plan B, or, even better, plan A until she's ready to Plan B. Told her that mixing it up with the infidels only gives them fuel to keep the affair going. Told her that it sounds to me like he's not ever going to really leave her, since he still hasn't filed for divorce and told her just days ago that he loves her. I think there's a good chance the whole thing will fold if she can put a good Plan B into place.

But now I need to stay out of it. Getting into the drama and speculation and anxiety just sucks the life out of me. I'm depressed, starting to get sick, still have some back pain, and I can't think of anything that sounds like fun. I get my kids back tonight, so maybe that will cheer me up. Rather, I will attempt to cheer myself up for them.

This sucks.
Posted By: InHisCare Re: Hard Today - 02/14/07 09:02 PM
sdguy,

Today is seemingly a hard day for me too...having many of the same emotions that you are expressing...also trying not to get sucked in...but it is strong suction!!!!

Hope you feel better and have a great day...

IHC
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Hard Today - 02/15/07 03:43 AM
Feeling angry. . . feeling like finding someone else . . . feeling like LB'ing (telling her what I really think, i.e., the truth) . . . feeling like Plan FU . . .

and then looking at my beautiful children

and remembering that my son said that I have a plan and that maybe his parents will get back together

my son wants to play with me now

I can do it
Posted By: believer Re: Hard Today - 02/15/07 03:49 AM
So sorry that OM's wife got accused of vandalising the car. I wish she would check out MB. I think that would really help things.

Married men almost always go back to their wives, so there is a lot of hope.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Hard Today - 02/15/07 04:44 AM
I know that there's a lot of hope, but it's so hard. I've tried really hard to get OMW to post here. She has read some and knows about Plan A and Plan B, but I'm worried that she isn't really ready to pull off Plan B without a better understanding. And I don't think that I can be the one to show her the way. Just hearing about the infidels from her takes a lot out of me.

And then I hear tonight from my son that OM was over again last night (without his kids). For dinner and out for miniature golf. I talked to my son about it and told him who that man really is. I said "You know that what Mommy's doing is wrong, right?" and he nodded. We talked about her making a mistake. He said he wished she would give it up. I reminded him that whatever happens, I would always be there for him and that we would be okay, and we cried together.

I want to smash things. I am suspicious that this is designed to provoke me into doing something they can use against me in a custody battle, so I will do nothing.

It makes me want to pull the trigger on the divorce, but that doesn't help my kids. I wrote in a journal last night that if I could snap my fingers and replace WW as their mother, I might do it.

So angry and hurt. Outraged. But I am already calming down. I will help my children go to sleep. And maybe sleep with them.

Thanks again for the suggestion to tell my kids that I have a plan, believer. I think it was you. It paid off already.
Posted By: believer Re: Hard Today - 02/15/07 05:01 AM
I'm glad you told your kids that you have a plan. They are depending on the adults in there lives (you), and it gives them some security.

Hang in there. I know how hard it is. You are a hero, and one day you will be so glad that you did this. I promise you that things will get better.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Hard Today - 02/15/07 05:47 AM
Thanks, believer. You've been a big support for me.

I'm so exhausted. What's going to happen to me? Is something going to snap inside me? Or click, maybe? I need the roller coaster to go back up again. I need to remember what fun is.

I know what I need to do, it's just a matter of doing it.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Hard Today - 02/15/07 02:06 PM
sdg....so sorry that you are hurting.
what a mess with OMW...I am starting to think that she is becoming a hindrance to your plan B. the whole while that WW and OM are fighting with OMW, they SHOULD be fighting with each other. you have to go back to what you can control though...which we all know is only ourselves.
when your plan works OMW is going to owe you a huge fruit basket...as you are going to be saving her fam as well as your own. OMW doesn't get it yet. IMHO stay away from her too. you are getting emotionally dragged down from all of that drama.

refocus on yourself...the kids..I'm sure it being VD didn't help at all. we are plugging along with you. you are not alone
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Hard Today - 02/16/07 04:09 AM
Okay, so I have been miserably depressed for the past two days or so, but I'm also sick, so I think that's a big part of it.

Exposure to the OM really set me off. First just the kids was bad enough, but now without them--trying him out as stepfather or whatever the ****** she has going on in her head--it just makes me sick. I want to protect them from this sickness, but my only option seems to be to let the affair run its course while I Plan B.

Everyone around me thinks I should pull the plug and get on with the divorce, and I have to admit that has been tempting over the past few days. I want her to hurt for what she's doing. I want to tell her what I really think (i.e., Plan FU).

And I really want my wife back. Digging through some old pictures for my son's homework project, I found a picture of W from when we just started dating, and I can tell that I still love her.

You're right, FB. I have to refocus on the kids, or else I will burn myself up. My brother and his family are coming next week, so that should help keep me distracted. I think tomorrow will be better.
Posted By: believer Re: Hard Today - 02/16/07 04:25 AM
Actually it is good that OM's wife still wants him. Men almost always go back to their families, and if they don't, they usually don't, they move on to someone they didn't cheat with.

You will be just fine. Hopefully things will work out with your wife. If they don't, our MB men don't last too long on the market.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Hard Today - 02/16/07 02:07 PM
I can't remember who told me this, but it was while in Plan B, don't make any decisions while emotion rules you. Wait until a moment of peace or clarity to make HUGE decisions. DIVORCE = HUGE DECISION...

Since you say you still feel love for your W (not WW of course), then stay dark and hold to it.

I'm sorry to hear about the vandalism. Just stay away from that, keep your distance. You are doing well...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Hard Today - 02/16/07 09:56 PM
I'm together enough to not do anything rash or even break the darkness of my plan B, I have been functional for most of the day, but I realized all of a sudden that I'm very anxious, and I think it's because WW gets the kids back tonight. I'm afraid she will have OM over again, because in her mind she's setting them up to be a happy family. It makes me nuts. It's wrong and disgusting and evil, and there's nothing I can do to stop it.

If I could take a step back and look at the big picture, I would probably realize that it's really not that big a deal. Ultimately the kids will be fine, but the whole thing is just so WRONG that I'm having trouble calming down.

What is it with bringing the OP around the kids, and why so soon? She's only been out of the house for a month. Isn't that kind of quick? Is that a sign of something? Some part of the affair process I don't know about yet, or just my WW wanting to make them all into a happy family?

I know there's no point in me contacting her and telling her how uncomfortable I am having OM around my kids. I wonder whether that's why she's doing it.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Hard Today - 02/16/07 10:06 PM
Quote
And I really want my wife back. Digging through some old pictures for my son's homework project, I found a picture of W from when we just started dating, and I can tell that I still love her.


it is good that you still love her...not fair to feel so hurt all the time, but still having feelings is hope for a future. when you get to the point that you are not hurt, don't care(not angry words, but real indifference) thats when you are at risk of not recovering your M. you are protecting those loving feelings, remember?

as far as "how to think" try this....
I have a firm belief that 'things happen for a reason' I have struggled with this whole A crap because it has been hard to find a purpose, a reason for all of this pain.
but, I still believe...even after all the garbage I have had to swallow....that I am here, we are here for a reason.

I think I have a chance to have a great relationship...I have learned what it takes...I know better ways of communication....I know how to act and not react....be in control over what I can control(me) and I am a stronger, more centered person.

My WS has a chance to be a part of something great, but if SHE makes the same BAD decisions, after BAD decisions, SHE will not be the one to share my life. I look forward to a better partnership, it is HER choice whether she will be the one to share that with me. I know I will have that relationship, with or without her. start to believ that you will have a great life again...with or without her because you are learning, changing from this experience. believe in yourself.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Hard Today - 02/17/07 01:32 AM
SD,

Have you thought about petitioning the courts to order your WW to keep OM away from your kids?

~ Marsh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Hard Today - 02/17/07 01:49 AM
I've thought about it, but on what legal basis? I don't know of any. I have secondhand reports of violence (some shoving) from OMW, but I'm not sure how much I can rely on those. I don't really have any reason to believe my kids are in any kind of danger.

I think I have to just accept it, as much as it makes me crazy. Any attempt by me to get her to stop bringing the OM around the kids will just make her more determined to do it. I'm trying to get myself to believe that it's good that she's going ahead with this--the sooner the Playing House Together fantasy dies out, the better, so go ahead and get on with it. Or hoping that the rush to put the kids together with OM is some kind of sign that the affair needs something more to keep it going. I don't know. I think staying completely dark about it is the way to go, but I'm open to suggestions. If the kids suffer for it, I'll know that it won't have been my fault.

In the mean time, I have to resist all the other Non-High-Road temptations--pull the trigger on divorce; unload on WW with the LB'ing reality of what she's doing; go out to bars and look for cheap, tawdry sex; find a 27-year old babe to take up with, and bring her on dates with my kids. I won't mention the ones that involve violence. None of these are serious, of course. (If I knew where to find a 27-year old babe that would go ou with me, though. . . .)

Nope, I won't do any of that stuff. I'll spend the night over at the beach condo, take my son to baseball practice tomorrow, take a long beach walk, maybe rip down the lights in my house that I hate, maybe do some retail therapy, and try to remind myself that this is temporary.

I feel like I've been in pain for such a long time, though. Is it still realistic to think that WW can come out of the fog after, what, almost 20 months?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Hard Today - 02/17/07 02:03 AM
Quote
I've thought about it, but on what legal basis? I don't know of any.


You'd have to check w/ your lawyer, but other's have gotten court orders to do just that. It is terrible on kids, so most courts frown on OP being around children.

Quote
Any attempt by me to get her to stop bringing the OM around the kids will just make her more determined to do it.


If she breaks a court order she will be in big trouble.

Her having to keep OM away from your kids will only help take away the thrill of the A.

~ Marsh
Posted By: sdguy038 help? - 02/17/07 09:00 PM
WW had the OM over with the kids again last night. I don't know what to do. Stay dark with the Plan B? Confront her? Take legal action?

I don't know what to tell the kids, either. I haven't been keeping secrets from my DS7, so he knows that OM is the reason that WW moved out, but I don't know what WW is telling him. I don't want to get into one of those situations where the kids get poisoned by what the parents are telling them. So today, as I dropped him off from baseball practice, I told him that I would always be his father, and that it was okay if he liked OM even if I didn't. I get them back for a week starting tomorrow, so maybe I'll talk more with him if he wants to.

Looking for answers, but I know that there aren't any easy ones. Can anyone point me at research or data on how exposure of kids to OP is harmful?
Posted By: believer Re: help? - 02/17/07 09:13 PM
I think that you can file separation papers in California, and have a stipulation that your spouse not have your kids around an OP, but I'm not sure.

However, I think it is wonderful the way you talk to your son.

Everyone with any brains knows that it is CRAZY to have children around an affair partner. Even when I was dating and my kids were young, I didn't have my dates around my kids.

But I think the most important thing is the way you are coming along side your son and talking to him.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: help? - 02/18/07 12:59 AM
I've talked with both grandmothers today (separately), and they both tell me that WW and I need to discuss what the children are being told about OM. My mom from the point of view that the mixed messages are going to mess up the kids. For example, before practice I asked DS7 what they had for dinner last night, and he said "That man came over again last night. I didn't like that very much." And I expect him telling me that was at least partially what he thought I wanted to hear. I don't want to put my kids into that position.

MIL tells me I need to talk to WW about it because she needs to face some of the realities of what she's doing. That a message needs to be communicated to the kids, and that I'm not going to lie about it, and when she stops to think about what she's doing, she may not like it much. Also, that WW needs to hear when DD3 says "I hate Mommy days." My thought here is that I'm just going to get a big fat dose of Fogtalk denial from the crazy lady, but I agree that something needs to be said.

So I think I will construct an email about talking with the kids. If WW would prefer to communicate FTF, I might do it.

If I post what I'm going to tell her, will you guys help me critique it?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: help? - 02/18/07 01:30 AM
And am I deluding myself here? 20 months in the fog. How much hope is there?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: help? - 02/18/07 01:34 AM
Quote
If I post what I'm going to tell her, will you guys help me critique it?


Yes.

~ Marsh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: help? - 02/18/07 01:42 AM
Here's a first pass. Then I'm going to a neighborhood party and will try not to be the guy that everyone feels sorry for.

Sub: Talking to the Kids

To be honest, I’m a little surprised that this came on us so fast. When you told my mom that you would wait an appropriate period of time before exposing the kids to a new partner, I was thinking that would be longer than a month after your moving out. And I guess I’m also surprised at how much contact there has been. To be clear, I don’t think it’s in the best interest of DS7 and DD3 for them to be exposed to OM. Since you are doing it, however, maybe we can agree on how it should be explained to them. Keep in mind that I am not going to lie to them.

So I guess my questions to you are

Is this how it’s going to be? Is he going to be at your apartment with our kids most evenings? According to them (and it’s not like I’m pumping them for details) he has been there two of the last three nights you have had them.

How have you explained his presence? What is it you want me to tell them, because they do bring it up.

Have you told [our daycare provider] about this? She ought to know so that she knows how to handle it when the kids start bringing it up in her presence.

Also, do the kids complain when it’s time for them to come back to my house? How should we handle situations like that? You mentioned previously that you wanted to know if there were issues regarding the mental state of the kids. They have said some things that I just thought you would prefer not to hear. Do you want me to pass those along?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: help? - 02/18/07 02:11 AM
Sounds very respectful.

Would you please consider calling a laywer about any legal option you might have before you send the e-mail?

I hope you managed to have some fun at the party.

~ Marsh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: help? - 02/18/07 07:01 AM
Thanks for the advice and concern. I will consider it. My MIL pointed out that any attempt to legally preclude contact with the OP will accelerate hostilities, and I tend to agree with this. Like Jennifer pointed out to me, it's not like he's a drug dealer. Still, your point is well taken.

I did have fun at the party. Talked to lots of people. In the middle of it, I got a voice mail from the crazy WW (as opposed to the nice WW, who left a VM for my mom that was so pleasant my mom actually wantd to play it for me--not that she's fooled) ranting about how I needed to call her to discuss the kid transfer tomorrow and how she wasn't going to respond to anyone else or an email or a text message. So I calmly thought about it, and then 30 minutes later there was another call, which I also didn't answer, telling me that she expected a reply tonight or she wouldn't bring the kids over it has to be me not my mom bla bla bla. Wow. Weird. So I waited a bit, then called her and calmly said "How about if you drop the kids of at 3?" And she snapped "That'll work for me." And I said okay. I actually gave her a chance to say something else, but she didn't, so I said Bye and hung up.

The VM's were so bizarre I actually played them for one of the neighbors I was talking with. My neighbor listened to my story and agreed with everything I'm doing. It was really nice to get that kind of validation (like it always is here).

It feels like WW is really angry about something and lashing out, but I'm not sure what it's about. Uncertainty over the kid transfer doesn't account for the anger on the phone. Angry about something else? Picking a fight? I won't play. WS's are nuts.

I actually feel pretty good. I hope it lasts.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: help? - 02/18/07 08:11 AM
Didn't last long. Crazy WW called me with a FogRant, and I didn't get off the phone soon enough. Apparently the anger comes from the fact that I called OMW today but the rant was all over the place. She pulled up about everything she could to hurt me, whether it was consistent or made sense or not. I recognize it as a FogRant and am not going to let it hurt me.

I stayed engaged too long, but I made it clear that I don't want to talk to her (because it hurts me). I hung up a couple of times, but she called back. Just another sign of the madness.
Posted By: fightingback Re: help? - 02/18/07 02:28 PM
sdg...I read in another thread (don't know where or when)
about trying to see anger in WS as a way of them reaching out, trying to connect. (hmmmn, I think it was Marsh)

IMHO, anger is good. any emotion other than acceptance of the status quo I see as movement in the right direction. now, how to stay out of the line of fire?...can't help you with that one...gosh, WS's drain the life out of you, don't they.

keep up the good work/ I like the email. I would be cautious though...I can bet WW will NOT like to be faced with her reality. isn't plan B about letting her see reality on her own?? not serving it up on a platter??

don't get me wrong, it makes me wretch thinking of OM over there with your kids, I can only imagine the emotion that stirs in you. but if you remove yourself (ie: the courts) is he a danger to your kids? how far can you go with this?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: help? - 02/18/07 07:57 PM
I got this email from WW this morning:

Just in case you didn't get what I was trying to tell you last night.

OMW is not as mentally sound as she may appear when you have talked to her. She has been and continues to be physically violent and verbally abusive and not just with OM. She does these things in front of her children because she does not know boundaries. Her inability to control herself in front of her children is the problem. The children do not need to be exposed to such things any longer.

Your talking to her is not significant and really I don't care and it wouldn't be a problem if she didn't need different help than she is getting. Where the problem is, is what she she does after she gets information from you. So I am telling you not to contact her with information regarding OM, me, the kids, any past life stuff. Just don't contact her or accept her calls. Everything causes her to do things that are not in the best interest of her children. Telling her where OM or I am or have been or what the kids said is not helpful.

The four adults here need to act in the best interest of the four children involved with the situation we have. Doing things that will cause more problems is not the way to act. You may not have known how bad her situation is but I am telling you now. Stop telling her things. I have a police report filed and my lawyer would have gone to court last week to get a restraining order against her and as soon as I tell him to do it he will.

We all have paperwork filed with the court and we are free to move on with our lives and all of us should.


Please tell me not to send this as a response:

I will consider what you have said. However,

1) While I wish the best for OM, OMW, and their children, it’s really not my problem

2) If OM is having trouble dealing with the consequences of his (and your) actions, maybe he should have thought about that before having and continuing an affair. If OM knows that his seeing you makes OMW crazy and his kids get affected by it, then he should do the mature thing and stop seeing you until the situation is resolved rather than lie to her and hope she doesn’t find out. That’s what a grown-up father who cared more about his kids than himself would do.

3) The best thing for OMW and OM's children is for the two of them to make a serious attempt at reconciliation (i.e., when there is no affair or contact with the affair partner taking place).

4) I heard what you said on the phone last night about OMW. I also heard you invoking just about everything you could think of to hurt me. It makes me wonder who the unbalanced one really is and is the reason why I don’t want to talk with you.

5) If OMW really is unbalanced, a big part of the reason is what OM has done to her. Let me know how it feels when he starts lying to and cheating on you.

6) If the situation with OMW and OM is as bad as you say, that’s all the more reason for me not to want DS7 and DD3 anywhere near it.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: help? - 02/18/07 08:56 PM
Quote
Please tell me not to send this as a response:


Don't send it.

Dark dark dark.

~ Marsh
Posted By: believer Re: help? - 02/18/07 08:56 PM
Ooops - a few DJ's. I would just tell her that OMW's wife is acting quite normally for a woman whose world is being torn apart by adultery.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: help? - 02/18/07 08:57 PM
And please stop talking to her.

~ Marsh
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: help? - 02/18/07 09:02 PM
SD,

Your problem is that you refuse to go completely dark. Just ignore your WW. I don't care how many emails, voicemails, or TMs she sends you. Obviously it bothers her when you ignore her. She expects that you will cave and just be a happy coparent, and you are reaffirming that in her mind. She does not want you to completely shut her out. Shutting her out is the only thing that will get her to truly understand the consequences of her actions. She still feels that she has the upper hand and all of the control. You need to snatch that control from her. Who cares if she doesn't want you to talk to OMW? She's screwing around on you, but she won't let you talk to someone about what you are doing? Who the he11 does she think she is? She doesn't like dealing with the consequences of her actions. Talking to OMW exposes her to those consequences. Ignore your WW. Don't say another d*mn word to her until she agrees to the conditions of your plan B letter. Any interactions you have with her only hurts your chances. Agreeing to shield her from the consequences of her actions (talking to OMW) only hurts your chances. Completely cut this toxic WW out of your life, stand up for yourself, and take back the control in your relationship. Don't let her manipulate you any more. If you email her back anything, it should be your plan B letter. Don't you see how much your plan B is working when she gets furious that you won't respond to her? Don't shoot yourself in the foot by caving to her demands.

The better you execute plan B, the quicker this will all be over.
Posted By: believer Re: help? - 02/18/07 09:03 PM
Oh, I forgot, Plan B. Marsh is right, stay dark.

It really makes me CRAZY when an adulteress has the nerve to criticise how her victim is behaving.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: help? - 02/18/07 10:02 PM
Okay, guys.

Dark. Typing it was therapeutic. I knew not to send it (and won't). And I knew I shouldn't have taken the call last night. I'll try not to make that mistake again.

I would say Thanks for the responses!, but that doesn't cover how much appreciation I feel for them. This is so hard. I really appreciate everyone's advice.

I get the kids back today for a whole week (because my brother and his family are visiting). It should be very good for me.
Posted By: InHisCare Re: help? - 02/18/07 10:07 PM
You said in an earlier post that you needed the roller coaster to go back up...

DARK, DARK, DARK

In plan b, there is no other way to keep off the roller coaster but to go very dark. Stop answering her calls, keep on pressing in with your intermediary...you can win this battle for control, that is what it is...a struggle for who is in control of the situation That person is you! Do not let her take it from you!

You and I are both struggling with this...we have both had times where things started going smoothly and we had clear heads...they bait us and when we pop up out of the dark, we expose ourselves and end up back on the ride.

I am struggling with the exposure to OW right now as well and I am not sure exactly how to handle it, but I am trying to be calm and not react.

I think it is very hard with younger children because they are so open to people. My older ones will most likely reject interaction with her, but my babies don't have that in them yet. But, I still have to rely on the fact that I am doing my best for them when they are with me. I have no control over their visitation with the alien!

IHC
Posted By: fightingback Re: help? - 02/18/07 10:54 PM
sdg...your responses to her were so real ...for all of us here. but remember what jennifer said??? she will not hear it. no sense in wasting wonderful thought on the deaf! great job at posting it here instead of to her. you are doing better than I am...stay strong. dark, dark, dark.
hard, hard , hard
Posted By: dsrewsdm Re: help? - 02/19/07 12:07 AM
Hey sdguy,

Just wanna let you know that I've been reading your posts, but not really responding. As you know, I'm also going through plan B and everything still seems to be unfolding, so I don't really think I'm qualified to give advice...but just wanna let you know that you and your kids have been in my thoughts.

Also, I live in the same city as you...is it awful of me to wonder if I might have seen your WW and want to lecture her and let her have it? ...maybe I could talk some sense into her! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> As I stop by somewhere, I wonder, hmmm, have I met her before?...would sdguy mind if I told her she was being irrational and stupid?! hah! JK...I would never really do that...just fantasy thoughts <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just wanna let you know, keep up with plan B, you can do it...and supposedly (from all of you here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ...it works!
Posted By: eav1967 Re: help? - 02/19/07 12:29 AM
hey guy

my H also tried this on me

he told me that the OWH was abusive and that he was going to come after me....he tried to make me afraid for my safety

when that didn't phase me, he said "do you want him to hurt ME? because that's what he will do if you tell him about me"

now THAT almost worked because of course i still love him and didn't want him to get hurt

OW also called and left me messages about her crazy H and she threatened me herself......"you have no business contacting my H. If you do, it's at your own risk because he's crazy."

(i have no business contactng her H but she has a right to have an A with mine??? just plain bonkers!)

and then she said "if you can't stay out of my life, you and i are going to go at it."

then when i did call and leave him a message for him to call me, my H and ow each called me screaming that by telling him i was involving her children


....my h actually screamed like a crazy man...."i'm so ashamed of you, involving her children and you are a teacher. A TEACHER!"

you see guy.......

these people in the A will do and say ANYTHING that they think will work to get you stop making waves for them.....they will play on your sympathies...even use children to guilt you into stopping

if they cared about the children more than the A, they would stop the A. that is what hurts the children

anything to keep the "fantasy land a happy place to be"

so ignore her....the more upset she is about your contacts with her H, the more trouble it must be causing in A land

and DON'T contact her....don't send an e-mail, don't call, don't see her!

show her that nothing she says or does while she is still involved in this A matters to you

contacting her can do you no good....you WILL NOT get through to her.....but YOU WILL let her know that she is getting to you

don't let her win

this must be making a difference or she wouldn't care about the contacts

this is good!

but i'll ask you what was asked to me

Why are you taking e-mails from her at all? this will only keep you involved in the madness. Why isn't your intermediary screening her messages?

Please don't say you don't have an intermediary!

Jennifer harley told me that plan B will NOT be successful if you don't allow your WS to see what life will be like if you aren't in it! completely! just like you would be if you were D.

Please listen to the others here who are not emotionally invested in your situation and can see rationally which allows them to give you good advice.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: help? - 02/19/07 12:43 AM
You guys are right. The Plan B is working.

It was time for kid exchange today, and my parents arrived in time to facilitate, so I went out to the hardware store. When WW arrived and saw that I wasn't there, she was furious (said in front of kids And he won't even stay here when I come). Slamed doors, slammed the kids stuff down, muttered under her breath. Sheesh.

Then about 40 minutes later she calls the house. I don't have caller ID, so I took the call. She asks me what she should do with the brownies the kids made last night--like it's important. The only explanation I can think of for this call is that plan B is working.

I'll have to rethink the intermediary thing. Jennifer seems okay with me communicating by email, but if it gets out of hand, I'll stop looking at it.

FB, thanks for validating my responses. Sometimes it's hard to apply your own advice even when you know it's the right thing to do.

Thanks to eav, believer, MM, Jim, IHC--everyone who responded today. DW, I didn't realize we're in the same city. I'll have to get caught up again on your thread. There are some times when I can only stand to deal with my own stuff.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: help? - 02/19/07 12:58 AM
sdguy,

Don't talk to her anymore. Stop picking up the phone, let it go to the machine, let voicemail screen your calls. DO NOT TALK TO HER ANYMORE.

Regardless of what your WW states about OMW, you know that his wife is in h3ll; you know what pain she is living in. I wish, for her sake, she would do a Plan B on her WH, but you can only DO for yourself and your family.

Also, being dark means very little communication, if any. Without an intermediary, I know this is hard. I think your WW isn't really getting the jist of Plan B, so you may want to resend the letter, with a reiteration of NO CONTACT with her. NONE, NIL, ZIP, BUPKISS. None of the correspondence that you have communicated here has been an EMERGENCY, nor really of even HIGH IMPORTANCE (Brownies, I mean, Come ON!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> )

Cut her out of your daily life. You see how much she can't stand the loss of the ILLUSION that is CONTROL. Bring it on home with complete silence. Just because she poses a question does not mean that you have to answer (especially about brownies... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />)

You are doing well, just keep your hand from picking up that receiver, let the machine get it...
Posted By: eav1967 Re: help? - 02/19/07 01:31 AM
sadguy

Jennifer gave me the okay to e-mail with my H also

eventually though, his e-mails became too painful and i got an intermediary
Posted By: fightingback Re: help? - 02/19/07 03:00 PM
Quote
I don't have caller ID, so I took the call.


um, you need to get caller ID, its only a few bucks a month and it will be worth it. do you have cable?? LOL
just kidding!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: help? - 02/19/07 11:39 PM
Yes, I have cable! Not that I've watched any TV lately. I think I'll just stop answering the house phone. And the cell screens.

I feel better today. I'm planning to recraft my plan B letter and send it as an email. The other one had too much 'we can rebuild it . . . make it better. . . faster. . . stronger' stuff in it, and, while I still feel that way, it's not the message that needs to be sent right now. WW has told me in no uncertain terms that she has no intention of ever coming back and that she would be gone even if OM wasn't around (usually when she's angry or being pushed, so it's Foggy), so to keep reminding her of the possibility will make me come across as needy, I think. I will, as per Jennifer's instructions, end with 'This is not what I want. The door is still open.'

But in the middle I'm going to stress no talking except in cases of emergency. I intend to be a cooperative co-parent, but I believe that can be accomplished via email/TM or via an intermediary if you would prefer. I'll make the point that the contact hurts me, and I need to protect myself. It's not about punishment.

And I'm thinking about the Dobson line someone was referring to the other day: "You're free to do whatever you want, but don't expect me to be your friend" or something like that. Anyone remember? BobPure had some good words along these lines at one point, but I can't remember where I saw them.

Any other suggestions?
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: help? - 02/19/07 11:50 PM
I told my WH, 'I am no longer your friend, not while you choose to hurt me, openly, with OP'. I left it at that. They (WS's) don't really hear it anyway.

I think you are right to rewrite a letter, to be more firm on NC between you and she. It would be good to restate that you are more than ready to communicate, when OM is gone and she is in NC and counseling. Don't state too much of the obvious, of course she is FREE to do as she wants. Just stress that the children are your main focus now.
Be specific, if you must, like, stating that you will not answer the phone when she calls, but she may leave a message if it is about the children, and of the UTMOST Importance, or a decision that the BOTH of you MUST make...
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: help? - 02/20/07 01:03 AM
Quote
And am I deluding myself here? 20 months in the fog. How much hope is there?


There's PLENTY of hope.

You've only been in Plan B a short time. She's already squirming...Go darker and her pain will grow.

Her A will end! It's YOUR love that may not last...that's why you MUST go as dark as possible....to protect what's left of your love for her.

Dark dark dark.

Quote
You're free to do whatever you want, but don't expect me to be your friend"


Sounds good to me.

~ Marsh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: help? - 02/20/07 01:20 AM
Thanks, guys. Especially about the hope. This place is a lighthouse, and there are so many great keepers.

I'll post what I come up with before sending.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: help? - 02/20/07 10:37 PM
Okay, first pass for an email:

Subj: Communication

I know that things could be very different between us, which is part of what makes this so hard.

My concern is now for our children. You are free to do whatever you choose, but do not expect me to be your friend while you openly hurt me with OM. In order to protect myself, I intend to neither see nor talk with you. I will be a cooperative co-parent for our children, but I believe that any communication required can be conducted via email or text-messaging (or through an intermediary, if you prefer). I will, of course, respond to voice contact in the case of emergency.

This is not about punishment--this is about protecting myself, the kids, and you from this situation.

I will be happy to resume regular communication with you once your affair with OM is ended once and for all. This is not what I want. The door is still open.
Posted By: believer Re: help? - 02/20/07 10:47 PM
Hey, I just saw that OM lives in my town. If you ever need me to spy, just let me know.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: help? - 02/20/07 11:35 PM
Yep. But I gave up the spying, remember?

Hey...you didn't vandalize my WW's car, did you?
Posted By: fightingback Re: help? - 02/21/07 12:05 AM
sdg, how bout this???????


WW, I have accepted your choice to be with OM. It is not my choice. I know that things could be very different between us, which is part of what makes this so hard. You are free to do whatever you choose, but do not expect me to be your friend while you openly hurt me by continuing your relationship with OM.
In order to protect myself from further pain, I find it necessary to remove myself from your life. I intend to neither see nor talk with you.

I will be a cooperative co-parent for our children, but I believe that any communication required can be conducted via email or text-messaging (or through an intermediary, if you prefer). I will, of course, respond to voice contact only in the case of an emergency.

I do still love you and wish that we could have another chance at making our M work, but there is only so much heartache a person can take. I need to heal, and in order to do that I need to remove the one thing that causes me the most pain, that is you and your actions.
This is not about punishment--this is about protecting myself, the kids, and even you from pushing us so far apart that we have no basis to recover from.

I will be happy to resume regular communication with you once your affair with OM is ended once and for all. This is not what I want. The door is still open.
Posted By: believer Re: help? - 02/21/07 02:04 AM
I'll tell you one thing, vandalized cars are very common in this town. It happens all the time.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: help? - 02/21/07 06:59 AM
The vandalism was reportedly done in lipstick and said something along the lines of having sexual relations with one's own husband. Or so I was told by OMW, who says she neither did it nor saw it. Don't know. Don't care. The reference was a joke.

Thanks for the suggestions, FB, but I'm thinking the best way to go is to say nothing at all and just stay dark. As my IC pointed out today, I appear to have taken the high ground/upper hand, so why give it back by engaging with her? If and when she complains about it or tries to subvert it, then I will resend my original Plan B letter.

So, what do you guys think? Is dark a good idea? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: fightingback Re: help? - 02/21/07 02:10 PM
Quote
As my IC pointed out today, I appear to have taken the high ground/upper hand, so why give it back by engaging with her?


great point. sounds like you have found a good counselor. and I think staying dark is always a good idea. you are doing so well. stay with it.
Posted By: sdguy038 Feeling Anxious - 02/23/07 11:56 PM
I'm feeling tired, anxious, and depressed today and have been all week. I'm not sure why--whether it's the virus I have or situational depression. I've been running a low-grade fever for several days now but don't have a lot of other symptoms. No contact with WW since the weekend, plus I've been around my family a lot, so I would think I would feel better. Maybe I need to check the AD dosage. Or is this just another stage of my journey?

What do people think about divorce/separation support groups? Our MC (who didn't pick up that my W was still a fogged-out WW) is starting a group. My first thought is reluctance, because I haven't accepted that my marriage is over and don't want to start thinking that way. Anyone else have experience with these kinds of support groups?
Posted By: fightingback Re: Feeling Anxious - 02/24/07 12:43 AM
sdg...I have no idea about formal support groups..but I got together with 2 friends that are having a hard time in their R (one separated...one on the verge. no infidelity), and it felt good to be validated.
and in the position we are in...we need all the support we can get. it can't hurt to give it a try...and if you don't get anything out of it, you don't have to go back.
keep your chin up.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Feeling Anxious - 02/24/07 02:33 AM
sdguy,

I can only tell you that I went through an initial withdrawal when there was NO communication DIRECTLY between me and WH during Plan B. You may be experiencing depression from this, however, illness will compound any bad feelings.

You may not think so, but you are doing very well. I don't know much about divorce groups, but I don't see how going to a meeting and observing could hurt you. Every group has it's own dynamic, and you may have something to add from MB that others are unaware of.
Posted By: believer Re: Feeling Anxious - 02/24/07 02:41 AM
I think divorce groups are great, a good place to share and get support. Be aware that it will probably be mostly women. That is how it usually is.

Sorry you are not feeling well. Drink fluids and get lots of sleep.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Feeling Anxious - 02/24/07 10:13 PM
I think things that were/are making me anxious are 1) that she is going ahead with the divorce, and 2) that after the last blowup the communication thing was going to be difficult.

I know that I will be okay if not great if we actually get divorced, but I don't think I'm ready to be okay with divorce. Maybe that's just part of wanting to be able to take her back.

The communication has been okay (there hasn't been any).

I'm a little worried about support groups that are mostly women, because I know that I'm really vulnerable right now.
Posted By: believer Re: Feeling Anxious - 02/24/07 11:08 PM
Most support groups have rules about seeing other members. However, my experience is that there will be mostly women. I think it would be good for you, and you can share some MB stuff.
Posted By: sdguy038 Plan B - 02/26/07 12:21 AM
Here's the latest email from WW. I described to MIL the whole vandalism phone call mess via email so that MIL would know what WW was dragging her grandchildren into. Opinions welcome:

"Yes my mom forwarded me your email. Before you go spouting OMW's or your version of things to other people you might want to check the facts. Not that it is any of your business but OMW was not provoked that Saturday night. Yes she did vandalize my car. I have pictures and the police saw it when they made the report. Yes I called her because of what she did but no I didn't say vicious things to her. And I wasn't at OM's when OMW came to his house. He did call the police because she had no business being there, whether I was there or not.

Neither OM nor I are doing anything to provoke either one of you to use it in a custody battle. It just isn't needed. DD7 and DS3 are not being exposed to any kind of muck unless you are doing or saying things that are inappropriate. They aren't being dragged into anything.

I've heard some things you have told OMW about me. Do not talk to her about me. What business is it of hers, what bearing does it have on anything, and why do you think anyone cares.

If you have issues with anything you should talk to me about it not everyone else. I thought you were composing an email to me.

There is no way that you and I will ever be again. I did not leave you for OM. I am moving on you should do the same and do the best we can do for our kids."
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Plan B - 02/26/07 01:40 AM
She is HATING Plan B!

Quote
Before you go spouting Heather's or your version of things to other people you might want to check the facts.


LOL

Pot meet...

Quote
Yes she did vandalize my car. I have pictures and the police saw it when they made the report. Yes I called her because of what she did


...Kettle

What proof did she have that OMW did it? Did she have pics of her doing it?

GMAB!

Quote
Yes I called her because of what she did but no I didn't say vicious things to her.



Didn't SHE tell YOU not to call OMW b/c she is soooo unstable????

Why would SHE call her then????


Quote
Neither OM nor I are doing anything to provoke either one of you to use it in a custody battle.

Interesting choice of words here, don't ya think?

PROVOKE?

Where's Schoolbus? I'd love to hear what she thought of this e-mail.

Quote
It just isn't needed.

What's not needed? Provocation?

She's right about that. Provocation isn't needed for a sane parent to fight for custody when the other parent has their head up their [censored].

Quote
I've heard some things you have told OMW about me.


I thought she believes this woman is unstable...why would she believe anything she says?

Quote
Do not talk to her about me.


LOL

Quote
What business is it of hers, what bearing does it have on anything,


LOL

It was HER business to have an A w/ OMW's husband, but she draws the line at OMW having any conversations about her. Got it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Quote
and why do you think anyone cares.

LOL

Quote
If you have issues with anything you should talk to me about it not everyone else.


LOL

She REALLY wants you to quit Plan Bing her.

Quote
I thought you were composing an email to me.


She REALLY REALLY wants you to talk to her.

Quote
There is no way that you and I will ever be again. I did not leave you for Brant. I am moving on you should do the same and do the best we can do for our kids."


If she is done w/ you, why does she keep reaching out to you???? Especially when you have stopped talking to her?

Waywards are so screwy.

SD, I know you already know this, but I need to say it...

STAY DARK!

Also, I gotta tell you, I see alot of emotional attachment to you from your WW. I've seen it all through your thread.

Plan B IS hurting her.

Alot!

~ Marsh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Plan B - 02/26/07 05:54 AM
Thanks, Marsh. I needed to hear that, and more. If someone can steer Schoolbus over to get another opinion, I would love to have it.

This took a lot out of me again (plan FU started to sound good), and my brother and sister-in-law have agreed to be my intermediary for emails so that I don't have to suffer from this junk. We weren't sure whether it is better to tell WW that email is being screened or just to have them screen it and have the ones that I don't need to see just get deleted. Any opinions?
Posted By: Regrouping Re: Plan B - 02/26/07 02:45 PM
Don't tell her, she will just try to manipulate the screeners, then manipulate you once she has messed them up. $.02
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Plan B - 02/26/07 03:30 PM
sdguy, you are doing very well!

Look at the UNPROVOKED reaction you got from your WW through her email. I think it's great and fully foggy how her expectations are so NUTS. Hmmmm, don't talk about me behind my back, WHY NOT? Also, what makes her think that the OMW vandalised the vehicle in question; couldn't it have been one of OMW's friends, who was PO'd enough to do it?

No response is the right response. She is defending herself against the TRUTH, and that is HILARIOUS. THEY just don't get it, nope, nosiree, THEY just don't get it. Hey, THEY still don't get it, even when in early recovery, so don't think that changes right away. It's still all about the wayward then, too...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Plan B - 02/26/07 09:27 PM
That email WW sent is basically a rebuttal to the one I sent to MIL. In there, I said something like I hope the WS's aren't just trying to provoke us into doing things that could be used against us in a custody battle, but one has to wonder. That's where the bit about provocation comes from.

Quote
"There is no way that you and I will ever be again. I did not leave you for OM. I am moving on you should do the same and do the best we can do for our kids."

Should I be concerned about this line? I know the bit about the affair and our marriage problems being unrelated is typical Fogspeak (and total BS), but I've heard variations on "You and I will never be together" several times over the past few months (usually when she's angry, I guess). Is this also typical? Does it have any other significance? For example, if it was a sign that it was going to take an extra year for her to come out of the fog, I don't think I would wait around for that. I think the answer is that it's all Fogspeak and that I should stop letting it get to me, but I'm interested in other opinions if they are out there.

In the mean time, I'm dark.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Plan B - 02/26/07 10:04 PM
If you remain dark, you will get your answers. You may find that you do not want her back and begin the process of moving on; you may find that Plan B is good solace for you, and you will stay in it for a while to condition yourself for moving on.

I would let you intermediary know that you will no longer receive any EMAIL or correspondence that isn't about the children ONLY. This type of babble is what you don't need to hear, and it diminishes the love that you have stored.

The line you reference sounds like blah blah blah to me. If she didn't leave you for OM, why is she WITH OM? Seriously, now, COME ON! Justification is the name of the game.

I distinctly remember my WH telling me that he was unhappy WAY before he had the A; then he turned around recently and talked about how GREAT we had it, and how we could again. He's a bit fogged up in withdrawal right now, but I think he does still believe this.

Again, I just suggest that STRICTLY business emails occur between you two. Filter out the other stuff...
Posted By: fightingback Re: Plan B - 02/26/07 10:13 PM
Quote
"There is no way that you and I will ever be again. I did not leave you for OM. I am moving on you should do the same and do the best we can do for our kids."


IMHO this is just a little bit of WW saying "don't show me reality, I am loving the fantasy world I have created in my mind"
By saying your M is over she is trying to get you to stop NC with her and reach out and talk to her. she may really believe it, but remember she is in fogland. if she can get you to engage and talk coparent all nicey nice, then WW can relieve some of her guilt. she is feeling bad...thats why all the venom. let her feel bad...she should, look what she is doing.
Posted By: hopeandpray Re: Plan B - 02/26/07 10:26 PM
All these %*)%)#%(# say the same things. To ****** with what she wants or thinks!
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Plan B - 02/26/07 11:04 PM
Quote
Should I be concerned about this line? I know the bit about the affair and our marriage problems being unrelated is typical Fogspeak (and total BS), but I've heard variations on "You and I will never be together" several times over the past few months (usually when she's angry, I guess).


No, don't be concerned about it.

It is fog speak, but if she usually says it when she is angry then it's also about hurting you....or manipulating you.

Don't read anymore of her e-mails. They will drain you. You will NOT be missing out on anything by not reading them.

You ARE getting to her.

She was delighted to have the e-mail you sent her mom as a reason to try to reach you.

She will be VERY disappointed that you aren't responding to her.

Stay dark.

~ Marsh
Posted By: schoolbus Re: Plan B - 02/26/07 11:09 PM
SD,

I am temporarily out of lurkdom at the request of Marsh. Plus my voyeurism often gets the best of me, especially when it comes to communications like your WW's.

She is really angry, no surprise to you.

I don't know if you know my posts, but part of what my degree entails and what my job entails is the analysis of communication. So, here's my 2 cents' worth.

When a person uses the word "but", it essentially erases everything said before that. So, she says, "Not that it's any of your business, but..." - this means that it IS your business, and she proceeds to tell it to you.

If it were truly NOT your business, the email would be simply stated, "SD, this is none of your business, so stay out of it." She doesn't do that. She goes on with more, which is probably more revealing.

She states that she "wasn't at OM's house when OMW came to his house" and then shortly thereafter makes the statement which includes the phrase "whether I was there or not". This is evidence of what I would call a "near lie", or that she is stating the EXACT truth in order to cover something that if she were to state the WHOLE truth it would reveal something she does not want you to know. My guess is that she had been there just prior to OMW coming over, or showed up shortly around this time. The fact that she says "whether I was there or not" is an attempt at justification of some action on her own part which was not appropriate - and pointing the blame at OMW. Your WW was in fact, on the scene at whatever event she is referring to, at some point (I haven't read the thread, so I don't know the details!). She just wasn't there EXACTLY when OMW showed up.

The fact that she has "heard some things" that you supposedly told OMW is important - she is listening to what you have to say through others. But, in Plan B, you are supposed to be dark, remember? Not supposed to even talk about her.

She has one paragraph about how you shouldn't talk about her to others, you should talk to her, etc. Clearly, Plan B is bugging her. She WANTS you to talk to her. And, she's trying to get you to email her back..."I thought you were composing an email to me".

I'm not sure what to make of the line about not being together again. It is very out of context, seems thrown in as an afterthought, out of anger. More of a punch at you, rather than with true meaning. Usually, when people say things like this, there's more than just one line. They don't just say, "move on" and stop at that. There's more to it than that, more emotion, more need to say things that have more expression and meaning. I would place that in the column of "she's hitting at me to try to hurt me" and let it go. Seems like your Plan B is heating up.

Hang in there.

Schoolbus
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Plan B - 02/26/07 11:43 PM
Thanks very much, Schoolbus. I know who you are and (more or less) what you do, so I am very appreciative to have you looking at this. Can I trouble you to look at another one, sent about a week earlier? I'll paste it below.

Regarding the me talking about her, I edited a sentence from her email about things that she has heard. It said 'She does not need to know about when I first had sex.' A couple of months ago, I was talking with OMW and it came out that WW and I were each others' only sexual partners. The ironic part is that it only came out because of something OM said to OMW about me (that wasn't true) that I decided to clarify. Another one of those opportunities to correct the facts and rub her nose in the truth if I were willing to engage with WW, which I'm not.

Here's the other email, which came the morning after several late night phone calls:

"Just in case you didn't get what I was trying to tell you last night.

OMW is not as mentally sound as she may appear when you have talked to her. She has been and continues to be physically violent and verbally abusive and not just with OM. She does these things in front of her children because she does not know boundaries. Her inability to control herself in front of her children is the problem. The children do not need to be exposed to such things any longer.

Your talking to her is not significant and really I don't care and it wouldn't be a problem if she didn't need different help than she is getting. Where the problem is, is what she she does after she gets information from you. So I am telling you not to contact her with information regarding OM, me, the kids, any past life stuff. Just don't contact her or accept her calls. Everything causes her to do things that are not in the best interest of her children. Telling her where OM or I am or have been or what the kids said is not helpful.

The four adults here need to act in the best interest of the four children involved with the situation we have. Doing things that will cause more problems is not the way to act. You may not have known how bad her situation is but I am telling you now. Stop telling her things. I have a police report filed and my lawyer would have gone to court last week to get a restraining order against her and as soon as I tell him to do it he will.

We all have paperwork filed with the court and we are free to move on with our lives and all of us should."

Thanks again for your (and everyone's) insights! Much appreciated. This is really hard.
Posted By: carnation3 Re: Plan B - 02/27/07 03:05 AM
((( sd )))

As I am not an expert, I really have no advice for you.
Plus, there is only room in my mouth for one foot at a time.

Thank you so much for *posting* my reply over on Eav's thread. That was very thoughtful of you.

For what it is worth - I have placed you on my Prayer List.

Sincerely, Carnation
Posted By: schoolbus Re: Plan B - 02/27/07 11:29 PM
SD,

She wrote after several phone calls? Boy, she really doesn't like Plan B.

The gist of the letter gives you her "side" that:

1. OMW is out of control, and violent
2. You are not to talk to her
3. OMW is really causing the A some problems (good for her!)
4. There are several veiled threats of legal action - however, I do not believe them. They are too vague, and likely lies - if they were real, WW would have provided more details, I suspect - especially with regard to the restraining order against OMW, I wonder about why they have not already filed, if the paperwork is already prepared. This threat and the "holding off" on action tells me that something just doesn't ring true here. If OMW were as dangerous as WW says, then go ahead and file, what's stopping this?
5. Generally, the constant "in the interest of the children" seems used because there isn't anything besides the "OMW is nuts" rationale. I don't see a reason for you not to talk to OMW besides these two reasons, and not much evidence besides the fact that your WW doesn't like dealing with the OMW and the fallout/consequences of the A......


Seems like your WW doesn't like Plan B too much. All of this contact with you, attempts to draw you in to the battlefield, etc. Your best plan would be to NOT respond at all. That will make her really aggravated, because she knows how to deal with you when you are fighting (because her letters consistently draw you there - so she knows how to do that in her communications); she is in a comfort zone with fighting with you. Don't let yourself get drawn into that by responding.

Instead, wait it out. Because her next way of talking to you will be lovey-dovey - if fighting won't work, she will go back to using her feminine wiles. Watch for it.

SB
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Plan B - 02/28/07 04:32 AM
Many thanks. I'm not responding and am going to begin having her email screened.

The several phone calls was really one long FogRant that started on the topic of the OMW and strayed to several other things that she could hurt me with (or pick a fight with me). I hung up a couple of times and she called me right back. Now I screen my phone calls, too.

I have seen the nice WW (as opposed to crazy WW), now that you mention it. I hadn't realized that was what it was about, though.

Thanks again. FWIW, I promise to never complain about your (or anyone else's, for that matter) advice, so lurk here any time.
Posted By: schoolbus Re: Plan B - 02/28/07 11:39 PM
SD,

You can complain all you want - but remember, you just get what you pay for!

My mindset for the last few weeks has been kind of down. I couldn't take the bickering going on over on one of the threads, so I escaped for awhile. Stopped posting as much, and stopped reading so much. I feel better now.

You know, the rollercoaster. It's just that I can only take so much, and I have to protect myself these days - I learned from a young age when to pull back.

Your WW is pretty easy to read - when you look at what she writes to you, just break down the sentences she writes (no, this will not work for anyone, but for your WW it will because her style fits a very nice pattern). She tends to write in opposing phrases - for example, she will state at the start of a sentence that things are one way, and then proceed to contradict herself in the next phrase of the same sentence.

"It's none of your business but,...."

You can easily see those markers, by finding the conjunctions (but, although, however, and, words like this). Those are the sentences that will tell you whether or not she is conflicted - if what she says before the conjunction agrees with what she says afterwards, if it makes sense and they go together, then you are reading the truth and the meaning is valid. If not, then you are reading something different than what is being stated.

Also, lies in her case are very easy to spot. She is not logical - she gives you information that is thin, vague, and doesn't really sound right. Additionally, her lies are lies of OMISSION - she gives enough truth so that she can be telling just the truth, the exact truth, but she leaves out the "rest of the story" which leads you to a full understanding of what the facts really are. Watch for her to say very SPECIFIC things, and those specific things don't add up to giving you what you need to understand - if you have to, ask for a step-by-step detail of events from her (if you ever get to the point of talking about things with her again). Don't let her skip past anything, and ask for the timelines of events, because I sense that the tendency will be to leave out things that will not cast her in a good light or will not support her story. In her current state of mind, she's not "lying", but she's also not telling the truth either.

I hope this helps you.

SB
Posted By: sdguy038 Tomorrow - 03/03/07 02:52 AM
My DS7's baseball season starts tomorrow. I am an assistant coach for the team and will be at as many of the games as I can make it to. I asked my son how he wanted to work the games when they fall on days when he's with WW, and he said he wants me to take him. So I conveyed this to WW via email along with the schedule. She agreed with what I proposed but just emailed me to ask where the games are. I guess this means she is planning to come to at least some of them. It's not unexpected, I guess, but I hadn't given any thought to how to deal with it.

Ignore her? Polite hello and then ignore her?

She's probably finding out right about now that I have requested separate parent-teacher conferences. Yep. There's the phone call. Deleted the voice mail without listening to all of it because the tone was poisonous. Hope this doesn't get ugly.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Tomorrow - 03/03/07 03:16 AM
Quote
Ignore her? Polite hello and then ignore her?


Ignore.

No hello.

Quote
Yep. There's the phone call. Deleted the voice mail without listening to all of it because the tone was poisonous. Hope this doesn't get ugly.


Well done.

Any idea what she's pi$$ed at now?

~ Marsh
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Tomorrow - 03/03/07 03:18 AM
Oh, you think she's sore b/c you set up a separate conference?

LOL

She was counting on making contact w/ you there.

~ Marsh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Tomorrow - 03/03/07 03:43 AM
I'm pretty sure it's about the conference. I told his teacher (who knows everything) a while ago I wanted separate conferences. I had the kids Wed and Thurs, and the conference notes came home in the Wednesday envelope. There were two notes. I took one and on the other one I wrote "I'm doing a separate conference." Then I put this along with the other stuff of kid transfer. It would have sat at Day Care for most of the day. WW would have picked the kids up at around 6, gotten home, and presumably gone through the stuff at, say, 6:30. The first call came in at about 6:45.

It was an angry voicemail, so I deleted it and sent the following text: Use tm or email unless emergency.

Then I called my intermediary. While I was talking to her, I got a text-message, quickly followed by a voice mail. The text message was empty (because she must have gotten mad while composing and then switched to voice mail). I listened to the first part of the voice mail, which was angry, so I deleted it, too.

Then I sent this email:

"I know that things could be very different between us,
which is part of what makes this so hard.

My concern is now for our children. You are free to do
whatever you choose, but do not expect me to be your
friend while you openly hurt me with Brant. In order
to protect myself, I intend to neither see nor talk
with you. I will be a cooperative co-parent for our
children, but I believe that any communication
required can be conducted via email or text-messaging
(or through an intermediary, if you prefer). I will,
of course, respond to voice contact in the case of
emergency. (If you leave me voice mails and I don't
like their tone, I will delete them without listening
to them, so in case of emergency, you may want to
start the message stating that.)

This is not about punishment--this is about protecting
myself, the kids, and you from this situation.

I will be happy to resume regular communication with
you once your affair with Brant is ended once and for
all. This is not what I want. The door is still open
for us to rebuild our lives and be happy together."

and one after it telling her that I had deleted the voice mails without listenening to them because I did not like their tone.

Now I have two new voice mails. You think they will be pleasant?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Tomorrow - 03/03/07 03:46 AM
I forgot that I sent her a one-word text message: email, so the last voice mail was her pleasantly telling me that she would check email sometime tonight.

Storm yet to come.

And, yeah, I think just ignore.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: Tomorrow - 03/03/07 03:47 AM
QUIT COMMUNICATING WITH HER!!!

Ignoring her is MUCH more powerful.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Tomorrow - 03/03/07 03:52 AM
LOL

Plan B is killing her!

Quote
Now I have two new voice mails. You think they will be pleasant?


Ummmm, I doubt it.

If they don't begin w/ "This is an emergency!" Don't listen to them.

That e-mail you sent was the perfect way to reply to her.

Now, let her hear crickets chirping....

Dark dark dark

~ Marsh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Tomorrow - 03/03/07 04:23 AM
I have two small kids, so not communicating at all just isn't an option. She didn't understand the rules before, so I clarified them. In case there was any actual information in the voice mails she sent me earlier (doubtful), she needed to know that it wasn't getting transmitted. The email is being screened, and I don't think she has the patience to type a whole lot of poison into a text message.

I feel pretty strong. Need to eat something, though.

I wonder if she will be angry enough to bring OM to a baseball game. I think I am ready for it if she does.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Tomorrow - 03/03/07 07:09 PM
WW read the email and sent a response about how she doesn't like it. Doesn't think that civil co-parenting calls for separate parent-teacher conferences. Hmm. Deal with it.

Then she sent me a text-message at 2am saying "You are such a child."

Dark dark dark
Posted By: fightingback Re: Tomorrow - 03/03/07 07:13 PM
my my my she REALLY hates your plan B....good!!!
keep up the good work!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: schoolbus Re: Tomorrow - 03/03/07 08:25 PM
SD,

Wow. One would think that at 2 a.m., in the TERRIFIC, WONDERFUL, PASSIONATE, FANTASY-TURNED REALITY that is the soulmate-affairland, they would be having MAD PAAASSSSIOONNNATTTE looooovvvve-making.


Instead, she's texting YOU.

Just think about that!

Pfffftt - that's the sound of the air coming out of their love balloon. I am ROTFL because I can just imagine OM's face as she paces back and forth, griping, yowling, and hollering about this - and you haven't done anything at all except EXACTLY what she's asked for. Then, she texts YOU. And at 2 a.m. to boot.

She's LB'ing all over HIM!


Your Plan B is working exactly as it should.

SB
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Tomorrow - 03/03/07 09:03 PM
LOL

I'm loving this!!!

I told ya she is very emotionally attached to you.

She had been getting stuff from you whenever you'd engage w/ her...fight w/ her.

She's getting nothing now, but cold steel determined plan B and it's driving her nutz!!!

And it is also making you much more attractive to her.

Ha! Poor woman.

She doesn't stand a chance.

You are doing great!

~ Marsh
Posted By: sdguy038 Latest email - 03/03/07 11:35 PM
I had my intermediary forward the email response I got from WW to the mini-Plan B I sent yesterday. Here it is:

"I will continue to use the phone and voice mail when you don't answer. If you choose not to listen to it that is your choice but you may miss something that you should know. I will not communicate through an intermediary regarding our children that includes your parents. I will chit chat with them but that is it. Email and text messages are flat and things can be misunderstood.

We ought to be co-parents and civil for the children. I don't expect you to be my friend that is not what the phone calls are about. I thought you could be a co-parent but it doesn't seem that you are capable of doing that.

You will have to see me. You may not have to interact with me but you will see me. I will be at DS's games even on days when I don't have him. I think it is absurd that you are causing his teacher to have two conferences for DS. At some point your parents will go home and you will have to answer the door when I drop them off and you will have to come to my door when you drop them off or pick up DS on game days.

You are not punishing me by not seeing me or talking to me. That thought didn't even cross my mind. I don't want to see you or talk to you either except for things regarding the children. You will have to be able to do this. You don't need to protect the kids or me from anything maybe except your behavior. What on earth do you think you are protecting us from?

Get this through your head. My relationship with OM has nothing to do with you. It certainly doesn't continue because I think it will hurt you and he didn't meet the children because it would hurt you.

The door is shut."
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Latest email - 03/04/07 05:28 AM
No comments on WW's email yet. I'm guessing that this is because of the weekend. I think that the words she sent me are still those of an angry fogged-out zombie. But you guys will tell me when it starts to sound like she knows what she's talking about and I should cut my losses, right?

I only accepted the email because I wanted to post it here. I know it's poisonous, and next time I won't accept it, but I guess the poison is gnawing at me a bit. I'm looking for reassurance that I should resist the temptation of Plan F-U and keep up my Plan B.

DS7 told me on the way to the baseball game today that OM was over again last night. I talked with him after the game and explained why I'm not talking with WW. That I still love her, but what she's doing hurts me and makes me sad, so I don't want to see her. That sometimes she says things that hurt me because she's angry. That what she's doing with OM hurts me, and he doesn't have to tell me about it (unless it's something that bothers DS).

DS7 told me that even DD3 is "working on it," by which he meant getting us back together (because it's what he and DD want). I told him that it's what I want, too, but that it might not happen, and if it doesn't we will all be okay. Also that it's absolutely not his fault, and it doesn't matter how good or how bad he is, it won't change anything between me and WW. There will always be two people loving him and taking care of him and a place for him to live. I'm a little uncomfortable with the kids working on WW, but it's not like I asked them to or even suggested it, and if it makes WW uncomfortable, good.

I think I'm doing really well. Right?
Posted By: fightingback Re: Latest email - 03/04/07 02:32 PM
sdg...I can't offer advice, but I think you are doing well.
sounds to me like she is trying to manipulate you into contact with her...thats the only focus of her email...oh, for the benefit of the children of course:) just LOVE that one.

don't give in.

Quote
I'm looking for reassurance that I should resist the temptation of Plan F-U and keep up my Plan B.


I wish I could tell you how to resolve this thought process, but I am very close to the same. I waffle day to day from 'maybe' to 'never again'

maybe just accepting that we don't have to make that decision right now will help to deal with some of the uncertainty that is our life right now. its so hard sometimes to keep the door open.
Posted By: hopeandpray Re: Latest email - 03/04/07 03:10 PM
Quote
"I will continue to use the phone and voice mail when you don't answer. If you choose not to listen to it that is your choice but you may miss something that you should know. I will not communicate through an intermediary regarding our children that includes your parents. I will chit chat with them but that is it. Email and text messages are flat and things can be misunderstood.

*Do as you will but anything involving the children and their welfare had best come to my attention even if by carried pigeon. I hope I am clear in this matter.

We ought to be co-parents and civil for the children.

* You made that impossible when you spread your legs for someone outside our M

I don't expect you to be my friend that is not what the phone calls are about.

*That's good because that's not possible as long as you engage in an adulterous affair with OM

I thought you could be a co-parent but it doesn't seem that you are capable of doing that.

You will have to see me. You may not have to interact with me but you will see me.

*Perhaps, but you are correct I will not "see" you.

I will be at DS's games even on days when I don't have him.

*Come on

I think it is absurd that you are causing his teacher to have two conferences for DS. At some point your parents will go home and you will have to answer the door when I drop them off and you will have to come to my door when you drop them off or pick up DS on game days.

*So you say.

You are not punishing me by not seeing me or talking to me.

*Then respect my wishes.

That thought didn't even cross my mind.

*It would seem that only two things cross your mind, You and OM.

I don't want to see you or talk to you either except for things regarding the children.

*I don't want to talk to you at all.

You will have to be able to do this. You don't need to protect the kids or me from anything maybe except your behavior.

*I would suggest behavior is certainly an issue, only it's your behavior that's hurt and is hurting our children, ignore it if you wish but the truth remains the same

What on earth do you think you are protecting us from?

I am protecting me

Get this through your head. My relationship with OM has nothing to do with you.

*it obviously does. He's screwing my wife and mother of my children. How does that not involve me. He's party to destruction of our M and our family.

It certainly doesn't continue because I think it will hurt you and he didn't meet the children because it would hurt you.

*Then why, you desire to destroy our Family. Also then why, you want to introduce him a substitute daddy?

The door is shut."

*On this we agree, as long as you A continues

Have a good day.


I feel better. Obviously the correct response is no response. PLAN B her azz.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Latest email - 03/04/07 07:14 PM
She's to drop off the kids in about an hour. DD3 was apparently sick yesterday. About 15 mins ago, she calls my cell. I didn't pick up, so she left a VM saying "This is an update on DD3. Call me back, or I will talk to you when I drop the kids off. I will NOT give the update to your mom, so call me back or I will see you when I drop the kids off."

I waited a few minutes, then sent a TM saying "Is it an emergency?"

Should be interesting. I have no intention of talking to her.
Posted By: believer Re: Latest email - 03/04/07 07:19 PM
You ARE allowed to talk about the kids. Just be sure that there is nothing else discussed. It is hard. My WH used to bait me to break Plan B.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Latest email - 03/04/07 07:43 PM
I think this is an attempt to get me to break Plan B, whether she knows it or not. There are many different ways she can transmit the information to me, but she wants to use the one way I have said I won't engage in.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Latest email - 03/04/07 07:49 PM
I think you ought to call her back.

Don't say Hi or Bye, just listen to her update ask if that is all and then hang up.

She might want to tell you when she gave him his last dose of medication or something.

~ Marsh
Posted By: believer Re: Latest email - 03/04/07 07:55 PM
Of course it is an attempt to break Plan B, but you CAN talk about the kids. Let her say whatever is so important. If she deviates, refuse to talk about anything else.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Latest email - 03/04/07 07:55 PM
She is HATING Plan B, so whatever you do, don't go to Plan FU, b/c she will LOVE that.

I understand why you read and posted her last e-mail here. I am looking forward to Schoolbus' take on it. But, Plan B REALLY is for YOU! Reading crap like that will dry up your love banks and cause you to reach for Plan FU.

Please protect yourself from interactions w/ her.

~ Marsh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Latest email - 03/04/07 08:35 PM
WW dropped off the kids. My mom met her outside, and WW refused to give a medical update. Said if I wanted it, I could call her. WW was enraged and said lots of hateful things, and my mom gave some truth back, which made WW angrier.

I guess I will call back for whatever it is she wants to tell me, but I am really starting to question whether it is worth this.

Thanks, guys.
Posted By: cherishing29 Re: Latest email - 03/04/07 09:31 PM
How manipulative! I must say, though, it seems like you are probably doing the right thing by calling since it is regarding your DD's illness.

Hang in there, sdguy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: cyllanlisa Re: Latest email - 03/04/07 09:51 PM
I've not read your whole thread, but seems she has a variety of options to relay the information to you, including just writing down the medicine, dose and time given. Not all that difficult, really. She is choosing to not respect your wishes.
Posted By: hopeandpray Re: Latest email - 03/04/07 10:52 PM
Quote
WW was enraged and said lots of hateful things, and my mom gave some truth back, which made WW angrier.


She will not like those "truth mirrors" being held up!!!!
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Latest email - 03/04/07 11:35 PM
I'm sorry your mom had to take the brunt of her wrath. I can really understand how angry you must be.

I was afraid she would stir up drama when she didn't hear from you.

When the subject matter is the kids, take her call, but say as little as possible and don't let her drag you into any conflicts.

I hope your mom is OK.

~ Marsh
Posted By: schoolbus Re: Latest email - 03/04/07 11:41 PM
"I will continue to use the phone and voice mail when you don't answer. If you choose not to listen to it that is your choice but you may miss something that you should know. I will not communicate through an intermediary regarding our children that includes your parents. I will chit chat with them but that is it. Email and text messages are flat and things can be misunderstood."

---This paragraph is her "inner child" threatening you. Basically, what she is saying is that she is going to fight you on having things YOUR way. Obviously, Plan B is hitting her right where it counts. The threat that "you may miss something you should know" is a clear attempt to draw you off of this plan. She is saying that she MIGHT have something to say to you that you WANT to hear....but she is lying. Don't believe this woman.

"We ought to be co-parents and civil for the children. I don't expect you to be my friend that is not what the phone calls are about. I thought you could be a co-parent but it doesn't seem that you are capable of doing that."
-----Translation: I am trying to get you to call me and do things MY WAY by calling you names, specifically a bad parent and a weak man, as well as not "adult" enough to be able to handle this situation the way I want you to handle it. -don't bite, SD, she's working HER plan.

"You will have to see me. You may not have to interact with me but you will see me. I will be at DS's games even on days when I don't have him. I think it is absurd that you are causing his teacher to have two conferences for DS. At some point your parents will go home and you will have to answer the door when I drop them off and you will have to come to my door when you drop them off or pick up DS on game days."
------Translation: "Nanny-nanny-boo-boo, I'm going to make it so you HAVE to see me. Made you look, made you look. I'm touching you!!!!!!" Stuff along that line - remember, you did stuff like this when you were about 10 years old. When she comes to your kids' games, she will do EVERY SINGLE THING IN HER POWER to get you to interact with her.

Just. Don't.

Because her plan clearly is to make a fool of herself trying to make a fool of you, in public. This paragraph lays out the plan, with her roadmap for you. She was not wise to write this for you to see. You are now aware of her plan, SD, so watch for it. Watch ESPECIALLY for two or three things: first, the blatant attack, where she will sit where you obviously must see/interact with her, or for her to approach you outright. Second, watch for her to suddenly or accidently "bump into" you, which will be planned on her part. Third, watch for the most insidious plan, where she will approach you ever-so-kindly, putting on a show of how civil and perfectly well-behaved and kind she is to you, with compliments included, in almost loving fashion. She will try all three to get you "to see her".

"You are not punishing me by not seeing me or talking to me. That thought didn't even cross my mind. I don't want to see you or talk to you either except for things regarding the children. You will have to be able to do this. You don't need to protect the kids or me from anything maybe except your behavior. What on earth do you think you are protecting us from?"
-----This paragraph is very interesting, and probably really the heart of the entire communication. She has gotten through the venom, and now comes the real message to you. Which is, you ARE punishing her by not seeing her or talking to her, and she does NOT understand this tactic.

"Get this through your head. My relationship with OM has nothing to do with you. It certainly doesn't continue because I think it will hurt you and he didn't meet the children because it would hurt you."
-----This may be the closest she can come to telling you the truth about her relationship with the OM. It really doesn't have anything to do with you, but with her own problems inside of herself. Her own lack of control, inability to reconcile her thoughts, inability to stop her reckless behavior. NONE of which have to do with you at all. Her affair, it doesn't have anything to do with you - it really is ALL ABOUT HER.

The fact that you are interfering in the fantasy, well, she's pretty mad that she's having to text you at 2 a.m., and that the relationship in fantasy world isn't all it was cracked up to be. That now she's having to deal with your parents, handing the kids off in an inconvenient manner, and she can't do whatever feeds her selfish needs whenever she feels like it. THAT part, she doesn't like.

Chances are, OM doesn't like it much either <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> tooooo bad.



And hey, as for the medication and the little one. If it is prescription medication, at the hospital the guidelines allow for a one-hour error on either side of the time of dosage for a patient. So you can be an hour off, and still be okay. Also, just call the doctor or pharmacist, tell them you don't know what time the last dose was given. They have guidelines on how to deal with that, not a problem, and you DON'T need WW for that at all.

SB
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Latest email - 03/05/07 01:09 AM
Thanks, all, especially for the communication analysis. I guess it means that Plan B is working and that I should keep it up.

I did call her back, but of course it was nothing she couldn't have left in a VM or email. I don't know. Me not being willing to see her brought out crazy WW, and the argument she had with my mom has me triggered (like the email does). All these responses I would like to make:

She says I need to get some pants (as in I'm not a man). R: Some day you will figure out who has been wearing pants the whole time and who hasn't, or else you will live in denial for the rest of your life, and God help our children if that happens.

She says I won't be able to take care of the kids after my parents leave. R: What makes you think that? If anything, I will take them more so that you can spend more time with OM, because that seems to be your only priority. There's no comparison as to who the better parent is.

She says that she is doing a good job with the kids. R: Ask any ten people you care to whether bringing your affair partner around your kids starting one month after moving out is a good idea. If you get one of them to say yes, I will be surprised. You are not a good mother. I expect that a judge would agree with me.

She says (in response to my mother's comment) that she is not a married woman and that what she's doing is not wrong. R: Huh? We're not divorced. If you want to be not married, why haven't you completed the divorce?

My mom is fine--she says she may have picked the fight a little bit. She certainly didn't shy away from it and gave as good as she got.

I'm not sure how to play it. I think MM's and believer's advice is maybe the right way to go. Try to avoid it, but talk to her when it's about the kids, because otherwise she's going to figure out a way to lash out and trigger me. And, as you can probably hear, I'm running out of patience.

I'm looking at this going on for a long time, and I'm starting to think about dating. Talk to a service and explain my situation--that I'm not looking for anything serious; just companionship--and see what happens. Someone remind me why this is not a good idea.

I appreciate the support SO much!
Posted By: fightingback Re: Latest email - 03/05/07 01:37 AM
sdg, at this point it seems like such a power struggle...the longer it goes on..the more vile she will get...and the more crap you will have hear and your mother too.

why not just call and listen to what she says, but if she gets vile tell her you wont listen until she is calm. it might just save you a bit of sanity. but be prepared to insulate your self first. JMHO
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Latest email - 03/05/07 01:38 AM
SD,

If she made all those comments to you on the phone and you didn't respond to them you did great!

I'm going to put out a shout out to Mortarman for you. He worked a great Plan B w/ his wife, maybe he can give you some tips on how to deal w/ ball games and such.

Schoolbus is fantastic at this stuff. Now you know what your WW's plans are. Good to know. Now go back to not reading her e-mails. They are getting to you. Thank God for Plan B.

Quote
I'm looking at this going on for a long time, and I'm starting to think about dating. Talk to a service and explain my situation--that I'm not looking for anything serious; just companionship--and see what happens. Someone remind me why this is not a good idea.


Please don't do this. Your kids really need one sane parent who is focused on them. Getting involved w/ someone else at this point is a very bad idea. Right now you are hoping to recover your marriage, how would finding companionship w/ OW help THAT? You may say you are only doing it for companionship, but you know what will happen when ENs start getting met.

Join a support group, a gym, a church...find ways to meet your own ENs.

Be the hero your kids need you to be.

~ Marsh
Posted By: fightingback Re: Latest email - 03/05/07 01:42 AM
------Translation: "Nanny-nanny-boo-boo, I'm going to make it so you HAVE to see me. Made you look, made you look. I'm touching you!!!!!!"

schoolbus LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: fightingback Re: Latest email - 03/05/07 01:52 AM
sdg...you know my plan B has been weak, and I am thanking you for the help I need to make it stronger.

I do talk to WS infrequently about the kids,(same reason, if they were sick.) but she is actually starting to respect my request for no other conversation, she knows I don't want it and so far the few times we have had to talk have been short and to the point.

but I wonder whether it will calm your WW down at all, she seems pretty enraged...which is good I guess but you need to stay out of the fire. I feel anxious just reading all that crap, I can only imagine what this has stirred in you.

great idea posting your responses here. its just a lot of fog, you know that...but it still hurts doesn't it..this is wht you are in plan B to protect your love for her...
stay strong, tomorrow will be better...I hope
Posted By: hopeandpray Re: Latest email - 03/05/07 02:09 AM
Listen to Marsh.....go running, weight lifting, bike riding, movies, male friends but no dating for even companionship. You will regret it. I didn't do it and when it was finally over I felt so much better about me for handling things the way I did.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Latest email - 03/05/07 03:37 AM
Quote
If she made all those comments to you on the phone and you didn't respond to them you did great!

They weren't on the phone--it was stuff she said to my mom. It spins around in one's head all the same, though. Triggers are triggers.

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Be the hero your kids need you to be.

~ Marsh

Thanks, Marsh. That's what I was looking for.

I'll try to calm down and not the crazy WS get to me. It just gets really hard. When the consistent message is rejection and 'you're weak for not accepting the rejection' it really makes it hard to not just give in. WW is not worth it.

But my children are.
Posted By: Mortarman Re: Latest email - 03/05/07 07:18 PM
SDGuy...howdy!

Seems like you are fully engaged with a WW that does not like Plan B! I had one of those (who, by the way, is now home with me, in love with me, and almost three months pregnant with our fourth child).

Now, that being said...I have been in your shoes!!! While in Plan B, dealing with a WW can be tough. But it is managable! Let me start with soem ground rules, okay? (By the way, the folks here so far have been giving you EXCELLENT advice!)

First off, you do understand Plan B and what it is for, right? I havent read your entire thread yet...but just want to make sure you understand that Plan B is for YOU!! That last interaction you had with your wife, when you gave in and called her...is exactly why contact has to be eliminated or minimized. I will go into "how" in a moment. But, when things digressed into a talk about the relationship, parenting, OM, etc...then you have left Plan B...and she got exactly what she wanted!! In a way she is right about the "wearing the pants" comment. But she is wrong on "why" that comment applies!

That comment applies because that basis of a WW doing what she is doing is that she does not respect you! Please read the link at the bottom of my post for more information on the roles of husbands and wives. But in short, a wife loves her husband because she respects him. A wife that respects her husband does NOT engage in adultery!

Now that she has engaged in it, you have laid down the law (which is GOOD!) and gone to Plan B. But the problem is that everytime you let her off of abiding by the rules, then you are saying to her "I do not mean what I say." And thus, the disrespect continues!!

I wont go over the long sordid deal of my sitch...but last summer, we went to court (for the second time) to start the divorce process. My wife moved out and we ended up in court, with me winning most of the time with the kids and a good judgment on custody, etc. For the next three months, I went completely dark. There were exactly 4 times that we had any type of verbal contact with each other during that time. Oh sure, she tried more times. But I refused all contact.

I coach my sons' baseball teams as well. When she came to a game last August (with my MIL), I completely ignored she was there. I said nothing to her! After the game, my youngest son sat down and said he wasnt feeling well. My wife walked up to see what was the matter and began talking to our son. She looked at me and tried to tell me something about how to care for him (she is a nurse) or something like that. At that point, I just said "son, we gotta go. We'll get some medicine for you when we get home." And I turned and started grabbing my gear and headed for the car.

No discussion happened. No eye contact happened. She was just another fence pole out there!

SDGuy, you are going to have to shut down communications here. As I said, there were 4 times. Once, she came out on the practice field and commenced to yell at me with everyone around. I just sat there and listened, not looking at her. Of course, I did make a smal mistake when I said "You are a piece of work." But besides that, I was silent. She then left in a huff.

Man, I wanted to lay into her...but I didnt. I ignored her. But it still hurt, and still drained me! The next day, m yattorney gets a fax from her attorney, stating that I am forcing her to bring the boys to their baseball, and that I was being verbally abusive towards her. Of course, I had 20+ witnesses that saw me under control and barely say one sentence. In the meantime, she made herself out to look bad.

So, what to do in your sitch? Well, like with this last incident...when she said she wouldnt deal with your mom concerning your sick son...did you really need to call her back?? did you? I dont think so. You could evaluate your son's status, and if need be, take him to the doctor. It was not important that you get that information.

Now, let's say she does start in one day where she catches you by surprise and starts saying "SD, our son is taking this medicine and needs it 4 times a day, blah, blah, blah." Know what you do? Nothing! You say NOTHING! You dont look her in the eye. You dont comment. When she is done talking, you hang up or walk away. Now, when you need to tell her about the medicine...then you use the appropriate avenues that you have outlined (email/tm/etc).

You MUST take this all down to the basics. She does NOT respect you! And you need to make sure that every action, every thing you do, is thought about and checked against the principle of "does this help her or hinder her from respecting me?"

You cannot make rules, and then give in! You must hold the line, establish boundaries...and mean it! I know it is tough, with children and all! But it is doable. I know, because I did it.

She isnt going to cooperate. But she doesnt need to. The only person that you can change is YOU. And once you change, everyone else around you MUST change in order to deal with the changed you.

You have done well. But, you need to battle harder and shut her down. She hates Plan B!! Its like light to a vampire.

Do not spare her the consequences of her actions.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Latest email - 03/05/07 09:02 PM
Thanks, Mortarman

I get the thing about respect and agree with you. I think the lack of respect comes from me not being willing to move on. Statements like 'the door is still open' and 'it hurts to see you' make me seem weak in her eyes, I think, but these are direct from Jennifer. I'm not sure how these help build respect.

Not to call back yesterday was my instinct, and it was right. There was nothing in what she said that couldn't have been communicated in a vm or email. I can do a hard-nosed Plan B. I am mentally prepared to completely ignore her upon sight and can walk away without engaging.

It gets confusing and hard to keep my eye on the ball. It's so easy to lose focus when I get triggered into anger or (worse, and more common) depression.

My lawyer called me today to tell me that the court has scheduled a 'status conference.' That triggered anxiety for me, because will it prompt WW to go ahead with D? Will the D go ahead on its own?

WW knows I talked with OMW (a while ago) about the status of their divorce case and whether or not OM had filed against OMW. WW said that OM has talked with a lawyer and because OMW filed against OM last year and that the case was still open, OM didn't need to file against OMW. But OMW dismissed the case, so OM and OMW currently have no case open. I don't know the timing of the dismissal (before or after OM talked with lawyer), but it's tempting to put this information into WW's hands. I think dark plan B is better.

It's really hard. All the drama just stirs up anxiety and depression for me.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Latest email - 03/05/07 09:18 PM
sdguy,

I wouldn't go wading in the dating pool so soon. Wait until you have a D, wait until you are READY. You ARE NOT ready. You may crave companionship, but you would do a disservice to anyone wanting a R. You would not be able to commit. Not many people join a dating service until they are at their wits end. Yes, some do to just troll for booty, but most are looking for a mate.

Go out with friends, fulfill YOURSELF. You don't need anyone else in order to be happy.

Your Plan B is working, so stay off of the phone. No calls. No need.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Latest email - 03/05/07 09:29 PM
Thanks, SL, for reminding me of what I really already knew.

You guys really think the Plan B is working?

Man, my confidence is shot.
Posted By: Mortarman Re: Latest email - 03/05/07 09:34 PM
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Thanks, Mortarman

I get the thing about respect and agree with you. I think the lack of respect comes from me not being willing to move on.

No, no. Moving on would be a sign of weakness. Wondering what it is you are upto will present strength upon you. But defending the marriage will ALWAYS bring respect upon you!

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Statements like 'the door is still open' and 'it hurts to see you' make me seem weak in her eyes, I think, but these are direct from Jennifer. I'm not sure how these help build respect.

These are just place marks! They are references to who you are...that you will defend the honorable (the marriage) over the dishonorable (the adulterous relationship). Of course, you dont say it all of the time. You also dont say it to manipulate! It is said as an honest fact.

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Not to call back yesterday was my instinct, and it was right. There was nothing in what she said that couldn't have been communicated in a vm or email. I can do a hard-nosed Plan B. I am mentally prepared to completely ignore her upon sight and can walk away without engaging.

Excellent! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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It gets confusing and hard to keep my eye on the ball. It's so easy to lose focus when I get triggered into anger or (worse, and more common) depression.

If your wife was a heroin addict, how would you feel? What would you do? This addiction is no less insidious! You need to understand that she is NOT of her right mind right now. You are combatting the WW...but you love your wife. Keep that in mind. Understand that deep down, your wife still exists. This person that looks like your wife is an addict. if your wife said, while drunk, that she didnt love you...would you give much credence to it? Of course not! So dont pay much attention to what this "drunk" has to say!

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My lawyer called me today to tell me that the court has scheduled a 'status conference.' That triggered anxiety for me, because will it prompt WW to go ahead with D? Will the D go ahead on its own?

Dunno. But talk to your attorney. What state are you in? Are you keeping track of everything...journaling everything? If not, get in down! Also, since she is an addict and sees fit to expose your children to unhealthy situations (e.g. the OM), you shouldnt be trying to share custody. You should be trying to protect your children from this abusive behavior! Taking the children into an immoral situation is not healthy for them! Courts do not look highly on WSs that do this! You need to make sure you journal everything, get all the intel you can on her immoral behavior and on her habits, etc with the kids.

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WW knows I talked with OMW (a while ago) about the status of their divorce case and whether or not OM had filed against OMW. WW said that OM has talked with a lawyer and because OMW filed against OM last year and that the case was still open, OM didn't need to file against OMW. But OMW dismissed the case, so OM and OMW currently have no case open.

WSs and OPs lie...even to each other!

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I don't know the timing of the dismissal (before or after OM talked with lawyer), but it's tempting to put this information into WW's hands. I think dark plan B is better.

It'll come out! Dont you do it. Stay dark! If anything, have the OMW inform her or someone else that you know of that will not implicate you. You need to be dark to her. She doesnt need to know that you priovided her the info!

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It's really hard. All the drama just stirs up anxiety and depression for me.

Are you on meds? If not, get on them!! Second, are you a Christian? If so, I have some further advice!
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Latest email - 03/05/07 09:34 PM
I'm sorry to hear about the confidence, but that is what darkness is good for, rebuilding YOUR confidence, in yourself. Your time in Plan B has been challenged REGULARLY by your WW, and will be for some time, I believe. Be firm. Invest your love in yourself and your children. Stay the course and leave the DRAMA behind. It's unnecessary drivel...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Latest email - 03/05/07 10:28 PM
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If your wife was a heroin addict, how would you feel? What would you do? This addiction is no less insidious! You need to understand that she is NOT of her right mind right now. You are combatting the WW...but you love your wife. Keep that in mind. Understand that deep down, your wife still exists. This person that looks like your wife is an addict. if your wife said, while drunk, that she didnt love you...would you give much credence to it? Of course not! So dont pay much attention to what this "drunk" has to say!

I know this most of the time. She seems so lucid at times, though, and so determined. I haven't seen any sign of my W for a long time (not that I've been looking). She's so far gone.

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Are you on meds? If not, get on them!! Second, are you a Christian? If so, I have some further advice!

I am medicated, but I think it needs an adjustment. I have an appt tomorrow. I also think that I am not religious enough to get much out of any advice along that line, but I certainly appreciate your asking and advice offered.

SL, the confidence comes and goes--all part of the roller coaster. My parents agree that I am better, and I know what I need to do to continue to get better. I appreciate occasional hand-holding and encouragement, though.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Latest email - 03/05/07 10:33 PM
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When the consistent message is rejection and 'you're weak for not accepting the rejection' it really makes it hard to not just give in. WW is not worth it.


Her constant criticism/attacks are a cover for HER shame. She trying to cover her shame by manipulating you via these attacks.

Don't defend yourself to her or to yourself, b/c once you do that, you've taken that shame upon yourself. And that is what is making you ache for some relief...(EN filling Companionship)

Next time she does this to you, remind yourself that you have nothing to be ashamed of. Her attacks tell about HER..not you.

I stand in awe of men like you, Hope & Pray and Mortarman.

I really do.

~ Marsh
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Latest email - 03/05/07 10:53 PM
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You guys really think the Plan B is working?


Big time!

If she is so happy w/ OM, why is she getting this upset b/c you are w/drawing from her?

The truth is, it feels as though you have broken up w/ her. And it hurts her. Even though she is w/ OM, she is still very much attached to you. She doesn't want to give up either one of you. She'd like to keep cake eating. But, you've put a stop to it, and she doesn't like it. It IS making her miserable.

Batten down the hatches like MM suggests doing, b/c she's going to turn up the heat to get you to quit.

~ Marsh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Latest email - 03/06/07 12:52 AM
Thanks, Marsh (and everyone). The reassurance and hand-holding helps me stay focused.

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The truth is, it feels as though you have broken up w/ her. And it hurts her. Even though she is w/ OM, she is still very much attached to you. She doesn't want to give up either one of you. She'd like to keep cake eating. But, you've put a stop to it, and she doesn't like it. It IS making her miserable.

So, she doesn't know this, right? Or she's in denial about it? She certainly doesn't seem to be afraid of losing me.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Latest email - 03/06/07 01:04 AM
ACTIONS, my dear, ACTIONS speak louder than words. What kind of person sends text messages at 2am? Not someone who is confident in their decisions. She is not confident, so she draws you in, to help her to feel as if she has some control over the sitch. That she still HAS YOU.

You've taken that away; you drew that line in the sand, and said no! She may not seem like she's afraid of losing you, and right now, in her fog, she may have convinced herself that she is trying to get YOU to back off, but all outsiders KNOW that it's not true. You stay dark, and she keeps coming. Look, guy, my WH showed NO signs of wanting me, whatsoever. He never texted me, called me, emailed me, unless by accident. He missed me, though. I was dark, and he had to use his memories of me (happy ones from Plan A and others) to stay satisfied. Eventually, it won't be enough. The darker you are, the more she WONDERS...

Let her wonder.

P.S. ooo, ooo, and another thing, I second Marsh's notion that she is in awe of men like you. Me too! It shows great strength and courage, what you are doing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Latest email - 03/06/07 01:14 AM
I need a new word. 'Thanks' doesn't cut it anymore. I'm moved and inspired by all the help.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Latest email - 03/06/07 01:15 AM
Nah, thanks is great! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Latest email - 03/06/07 01:50 AM
Today is a transition day for the kids--I would drop them off at school and day-care and WW would pick them up at night. DD3 is still sick, though, and DS7 presented some symptoms, so my parents kept both of them at home today. I emailed this info to WW, who had to coordinate with my mom on pickup. Mom says she had a very sweet conversation with Nice WW (not crazy WW). Mom offered to keep DD again tomorrow if necessary (WW said "Are you sure?"). I wouldn't have made the offer, but it was already out there.

WS's are nuts.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Latest email - 03/06/07 04:45 PM
sdg...I agree with Marsh...plan B is killing her

the fact is...you don't know HOW things are going with OM...if she is being so vile...that might mean she is not living the fantasy life anymore...reality is setting in. my bet is things are less than perfect. and thats a definate downward swing. she may still spew venom because she may not understand WHY plan B hurts her so much...but give her time..she will figure it out

is your WW stubborn?? unable to admit fault?? that may play a part in her tough exterior (ie: "I don't want you back" "we will never have a chance")

when someone like a WW makes a life altering decision that has a longlasting effect on the ones she loves, it HAS to be for a substantial reason, right? so her feelings for OM HAVE to be substantial. extreme enough to wreck her family. ok, so what if a WW gets a glimmer(plan B) that what they have given up their life for is less than perfect, not everything they had hoped for(OM)??? what do they do??

well, they can admit they were wrong, which for some is like cutting of an appendage. or they can stay in denial...steeped in denial...where there is no evidence of wrongdoing...."no, OM is the one for me, otherwise why would I have risked my whole family's happiness?" she doesn't want to believe that she has wantonly thrown her morals out the window for an A...it HAS to have more substance than that, you know in the name of love, happiness. she has to come out of denial before she can see reality...plan B is shoving reality down her throat...ripping her kicking and screaming from the denial she is spinning in...denial is safe...its warm there...no responsibility....no painful reality...thats why she is spewing venom...she doesn't want reality...she would rather chose lofty fantasyland....see how your plan B is working...

am I making sense??
get what I am saying???
is that clear as mud???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: fightingback Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/06/07 04:51 PM
another quick thought

"me thinks thow protestest too much"

the more she says she doesn't want you, there is no chance for reconciliation...the more I believe the opposite is true.
if she really didn't want you..she would be ignoring you, and happy in plan B...off living life with OM...thats NOT happening

keep your chin up...it IS working <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Mortarman Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/06/07 05:52 PM
I second what these folks are saying.

You dont complain about that which you dont care about!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/06/07 07:55 PM
Okay. Thanks, guys. I need to stop worrying about it and calm down, anyway. What she is or isn't doing or feeling isn't relevant to what I need to do, at least not yet.

When she tries to break the Plan B, I get triggered, and then I get anxious and depressed. Okay. I see it now. I think I know what to do. But I feel like I've said this before, too.
Posted By: InHisCare Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/06/07 09:04 PM
Wouldn't it be nice to be able to grasp how we should be feeling/thinking and hold onto it?

It seems like you and I both (probably most in plan B actually) get things figured out, only to have them ripped away from us, be reminded of them, grasp them, have them ripped away...and it's the gift that just keeps on giving!!!LOL

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
IHC
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/07/07 01:40 AM
It's hard to stay focused with such a slippery target. Each time, I feel a little more prepared, though. "Ah...okay...hadn't thought of THAT yet. Next time I'll be ready."
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/07/07 01:44 AM
You will not always be ready for every little incident that occurs, and even the 'little' ones can be very painful. That is why the best advice that anyone can give about Plan B is to attempt darkness as best you can.

Eventually, you will be able to recognize who you are dealing with AND understand it. You won't be as reactionary. In your case, sdguy, you will have to deal with her showing up at your son's games, so you have more to contend with. I think you are doing very well, and all of this 'thinking' is totally normal, we ALL do it. We all wonder how to keep from the emotional ups and downs. If you weren't in Plan B (think back a bit to Plan A) you would be nowhere near as together as you are right now. YOu have learned much about yourself. You are getting stronger. You'll see...
Posted By: fightingback Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/07/07 02:16 PM
sdg

you sound a bit more focused.....you are doing great...keep up the good work.
Posted By: Mortarman Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/07/07 03:21 PM
SD,

A sentence I try to live by: "Though I stumble, I never loose my way."
Posted By: believer Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/07/07 04:09 PM
I admire you too. Men like you and some of the others give me hope that there are good men still.

You are very early in Plan B. Expect NOTHING for now. Nothing usually happens for several months. So don't worry about WW, just continue staying the course.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/07/07 09:07 PM
Triggered myself again. Now I'm worried about divorce proceedings. I haven't talked to my lawyer enough to know what happens now. She filed in November--does the case proceed with a life of its own now, or does she have to do something else to keep it going? If it's a six-month clock, something will happen in the June timeframe, and I don't think that WW will wake up by then. I believe that D will be the point of no return for me, and a lot of the anger I'm storing up will come out in a Plan-FU-Let-Me-Tell-You-What-I-REALLY-Think statement.

Lots of worries. I'm anxious about it because I want to control it but can't. I know that I will be fine (and maybe better off) if D happens, but it's not what I want, so that prospect scares me. Sometimes. I think I'm torturing myself trying to figure out whether I should hope for recovery (as if there were something I could do to control that), or whether I should go ahead and make myself okay with divorce, but if I do that will the door for recovery close (i.e., will I be Done)? It's too much thinking (but that's what I do). I want to calm down and remind myself that whatever happens, I and my kids will be okay.

I know that continuing my Plan B is the best path forward, so that is what I will do. Dark and Darker. Pitch black. Impenetrable.

Obviously, I need to talk with my lawyer to get greater understanding.

And I really wish that WW knew that OMW and OM's divorce case has been dismissed, but I know it's best if I'm not the one to tell her and can't figure out another way to get that information to her.
Posted By: fightingback Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/07/07 09:29 PM
Quote
I believe that D will be the point of no return for me, and a lot of the anger I'm storing up will come out in a Plan-FU-Let-Me-Tell-You-What-I-REALLY-Think statement.


sdg...feeling the same way...every little let down is like a mild push for me...I feel like every element of time, day or week that'nothing' happens (ie: what I want to happen)...I take a baby step away from it all....I am concerned, like you that one day that baby step will take me just too far to ever come back...I feel like I am losing that love..

I guess the good thing about it is
#1 no regrets...we will know...without a doubt that we did everything reasonably possible, and even superhuman, to give our M that chance.
#2 Dr Harley says that if we follow plan B, then eventually what happens is WE fall out of love with THEM. yes, I forgot it but I have been re-reading SAA, and thats what he actually says. so I guess when that happens...no more pain...no more agonizing...we end up...hmm...you know "over it" and actually ready to move on

I guess this is the subtle shift we are feeling...and I guess thats why we need to stay far away from WS's as their actions will only intensify this desire to "move on"

whew...this is trying....

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And I really wish that WW knew that OMW and OM's divorce case has been dismissed, but I know it's best if I'm not the one to tell her and can't figure out another way to get that information to her.


and you got this info from OMW?? no one SHE knows can leak it to WW?? wait a minute...on second thought...aren't we supposed to STOP worrying about what WW and OM are doing?? talking about this is prob not good for your heart!!! I know...I am getting weak too. but lets toughen up huh????
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: InHisCare Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/07/07 09:42 PM
Quote
sdg...feeling the same way...every little let down is like a mild push for me...I feel like every element of time, day or week that'nothing' happens (ie: what I want to happen)...I take a baby step away from it all....I am concerned, like you that one day that baby step will take me just too far to ever come back...I feel like I am losing that love..


I'm right there with both of you as well. It is a scary place to be..a balancing act...not wanting to give up "too soon" but being ready to heal and move on, and losing some of the love that I have desperately been trying to hold on to.

Just thought I'd pop in and echo your sentiments!!!


IHC
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/07/07 09:45 PM
I got the info from the court. I'm trying not to communicate with OMW much, but I did send her an email asking when she dismissed the case (and, thus, when did OM know that the case had been dismissed, and is it possible OM is lying to WW about it, and, um, wouldn't that be great), but she hasn't responded. I said in my email that WW thinks the case is still active, so maybe she will take the hint.

But you're right--I'm trying not to get involved in OM/OMW stuff. I think it's just me trying to regain control of a situation I can't control. Probably a significant part of what the desire to date was, too.
Posted By: fightingback Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/07/07 10:53 PM
Quote
I got the info from the court. I'm trying not to communicate with OMW much, but I did send her an email asking when she dismissed the case (and, thus, when did OM know that the case had been dismissed, and is it possible OM is lying to WW about it, and, um, wouldn't that be great), but she hasn't responded. I said in my email that WW thinks the case is still active, so maybe she will take the hint.


yup...sdg...ask yourself..."how is this helping me?" is it making you feel better? you are trying to control that which is out of your control... you would do best to stop thinking about it..my guess is that they have enough to fight about, and the fact that they are keeping secrets from one another is a good thing...no R can last without honesty...don't worry...it WILL come out to your WW...you don't need to push it to happen. believe it will and take it as a sign that all is not well in fantasy land..then put it to rest..
Posted By: fightingback Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/07/07 10:54 PM
IHC...you have twin boys?? then you had three more??? wow you must be busy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/07/07 11:25 PM
sdguy,
I thought a lot about letting go. I started to teeter towards acceptance that I would be divorcing in the summer. I was ready, sort of still am. Guess that's what a good Plan B does, it allows you to open up to the notion that YOU deserve respect, that you are strong, and that, if asked to, if forced to, you can go it alone.

This is your WW's ball, let her run with it. By all means, talk to your lawyer about tentative time lines, but leave it at that. Darkness is AGAINST the situation also. It allows you to continue with your daily life, unaware of the awful things that a WS does, in any capacity.

If she chooses to D, then that is her choice. You have chosen M, she knows this. D is not always the end, but I'm unsure of the effect on men vs. women (BS's) and their choice to move on.
Posted By: InHisCare Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/07/07 11:54 PM
fb,

no not twins...one is foster, from family. But yeah, the insanity is still the same!!!LOL
Posted By: chrisner Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/07/07 11:57 PM
My Plan B started on January 30th. WW filed for D last week. I have no one to worry about now but DD19 and myself and I am not looking back. I will say that every day I am stronger than the last. There is the occasional mental and emotional hiccup but they don’t hurt as bad or last as long as before. It is a new mindset to stop thinking “us” and only about “me” regarding the future but it is less intimidating each day. I have no control over her actions or her possible destruction in the future. And now I know I never really did.

I am sure my original greatest fear was that of being alone. Fear is debilitating and non productive. As dumb as it sounds every load of laundry, every load of dishes, every time I vacuum the house, care for the houseplants, dust, clean, organize or make a small meal for myself is another small step to being a self sufficient independent man. It’s not that I don’t desire a companion in my life, because eventually I really do. It’s my understanding that I don’t need a companion in order to define who I am.

In the end, the best revenge will be to live well.


"Passion has helped us; but can do so no more. It will in future be our enemy. Reason, cold, calculating, unimpassioned reason, must furnish all the materials for our future support and defense." – Abraham Lincoln
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/08/07 03:26 AM
Thanks for the thoughts, All. I talked with my lawyer, who told me that the six month thing is the minimum amount of time that the divorce could be finalized, but that since nothing has happened to progress the divorce, it probably won't be that soon. But that the court will push things along. My lawyer knows that I don't want to do anything to propel the case.

I know that divorce is not necessarily an endpoint, but it feels like a point at which I would say "Okay, I'm done now. I've done everything I can."

The bit about control is self-realization. Why does this bother me so much when I know that I and my kids will be okay whatever happens and that a divorce could actually be a relief? Because it's not what I want, and I'm not used to things that I want being out of my control. I keep coming back at the problem, trying to figure out some other angle with which to approach it. I know that I should be letting it go, and I'm doing a better job of that than I would have even a couple of months ago.

Divorce feels like failure. And in this case, it would be, but I know that it won't be MY failure. But you can know something in your head and feel something different deep in your bones, and that would/will be something I will struggle with if it goes to divorce--that I have failed my children somehow. Intellectually, I know that I am doing a superhuman thing, but still.

I'm not afraid of being alone. I know that I'm a good man, a good father, a good husband, a good catch. And I'm pretty self-sufficient, too. It's just not what I want, and right now I'm trying to keep it that way.

WW showed up at DS7's baseball game today. DS pointed her out to me (and later said it was what he liked best about the game--sweet kid). She stood over on the other side of the field away from our team bench. I studiously ignored her. She was nice to my father as he walked by her, though, and then called my mom for a status report on DD3 and was downright chatty and pleasant. My mom objects to me calling her an insane addict and tends to think WW knows what she's doing (trying to protect me).
Posted By: fightingback Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/09/07 11:52 PM
Quote
But you can know something in your head and feel something different deep in your bones, and that would/will be something I will struggle with if it goes to divorce--that I have failed my children somehow. Intellectually, I know that I am doing a superhuman thing, but still.


sdg...sorry you are down..I see why you would feel like D as being an endpoint, it IS and endpoint! maybe if you think of it as something different...as a step on a path...the closing of one door can open another...yada yada yada.

YOU have not failed...YOU have shown your children determination, perseverance, love, boundaries, admitting mistakes, devotion, forgiveness, and I am sure many, many more wonderful traits. you have shown them despite life being full of hardship, that YOU will be there...always...from diversity comes growth. do not lose sight of your strength..
WW has failed....you and her children, BUT she may still have an opportunity to repent and right her wrongs. yes, the clock IS ticking...but all is not lost, yet!!!!
YOU will be a loving devoted partner to some wonderful deserving wife in the future, WW can chose to be that W or not...it will be her loss.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/10/07 12:58 AM
I'm feeling better than I was. It takes me a couple of days after getting triggered to really get centered again, so I'm trying to avoid getting triggered. I've been busy at work and okay at home, although the Discovery paperwork getting ready for the divorce conference makes me want to vomit.

Speaking of vomit, my son started throwing up at about 4am and appears to have the stomach bug that's going around. The kicker is that my parents and I are planning to take the kids to Arizona this weekend to take in a couple of spring training baseball games. We think we're going to try to go anyway. Wish us luck!
Posted By: InHisCare Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/10/07 01:40 AM
sd,

I find that my recovery from triggers is shorter and shorter each time. Sometimes they knock me down but most of the time they just make me lose my bearing now.

Kind of like when you are in the ocean...just standing still you can lose your balance as the wave goes back out...sonetimes the wave is strong enough to knock you over, other times...not so much. But then there are those ones that catch you off guard...they're the ones that really make you go down! Anyone, can you tell I'm missing the sunny beaches of San Diego?!

IHC
Posted By: fightingback Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/12/07 05:38 PM
Quote
so I'm trying to avoid getting triggered.


sdg...is this a realistic goal??? I am right with you on the triggers...got a cell phone bill way OVER on TM's on WS's phone........wretching. but how do you actually prevent this...maybe finding a better way to deal with the nauseating reaction, but how to??? I am struggling with this as well...yikes

I am glad your feeling better....and that stomach bug is a doozy..make sure you wash your hands before you touch your eyes,nose or mouth...only way to prevent the spread so you don't get it too....my son had it for about 3-4days...but my youngest kids only had a mild case for 1-2days...hope its a short one for your little guy.

did somebody say beaches??? I am salivating...I still have snow on the ground...but its been 50 for 2 days..at least its starting to melt:)
Posted By: chrisner Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/12/07 06:25 PM
Hey sdguy,

Seems you and I are pretty neck and neck in this ugly divorce horse race. I just got going on the property and financial paperwork this weekend. Very non-motivational stuff.

I had a strange trigger set off last night that really bummed me out for several hours. DD19 and I went to see 300 last night. I really enjoyed it and the dedication kept to Frank Miller's original style. Pretty bloody stuff (warning) but well done.

At the end as Leonidas waits for his end under a cloud of Persian arrows his last line is a lament about not ever to see his wife again. I was gut punched. It was very strange. DD19 was perceptive enough to notice on the walk home and even correctly guessed the source of the trigger and gave me a big hug. I got a good kid.

Some of those triggers can be pretty sneaky.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/12/07 07:01 PM
Just found out the Family Court Services hearing is scheduled for ten days from now, with a court hearing about a month after.

Plus, I think I have the stomach bug now.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/12/07 10:01 PM
So the whole divorce is all a great big trigger for me and really makes me tired. I know that I will get back on my Plan B horse and keep going with it, but in the midst of the trigger Plan FU is really beckoning.

She wants me to be a civil co-parent and doesn't understand what I'm protecting her from. Okay. I can explain it to her. Starting with what a crappy mother she is. I can tell her what I really think, and then I can be as civil as she wants, but once I'm Done, she's going to hear it.

I don't know. I felt strong yesterday, today I'm tired. She's so stubborn and determined--I just can't see that she will wake up in time for me to still care.
Posted By: fightingback Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/13/07 02:42 PM
sdg...I don't blame you....you sound really down...what do these hearing mean?? is the D going to be the END for you...or do you think you will keep some hope in your heart???

I know its not MB approved, but what about a little plan F-U, if I was going to break my plan B, can't think of a better thing to do than to unload a truck load of foul smelling dung onto WS!!!! they soooo deserve it. grrrrrr!!!!

sorry you are hurting <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: chrisner Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/13/07 04:22 PM
Hey sdguy,

I thought about Plan FU all last week too. It was bad enough I would practice in the car while driving. I probably scared some people on US36; “Mommy, look at the wild-eyed crazy man with the frothing mouth next to us!”

Then I was thinking just like you that when this is over she will get the full understanding of my appreciation of the Dante’s Inferno she has sent DD19 and me through.

“She's so stubborn and determined--I just can't see that she will wake up in time for me to still care.” - What are they sisters?

But then feelings change again.

Somehow I feel I have entered a new stage of recovery after the last trigger on Sunday night. The last trigger episode was very intense but also relatively brief. During these past couple of days I suddenly realize I just don’t care that much what she is doing or what she plans on doing or with whom. She can start snake charming entire rugby teams if she wants.

I don’t seem to have any real yearning for her and a little part of me started to feel sorry for her for the messy train wreck I believe her life will become. But I have no desire to muddy myself stopping it. I am sure this is just another hill on the rollercoaster, but it is feelings of apathy I have not yet experienced and I suspect these feelings will start to become more a part of me.

I am sure I have many angry moments yet in store for me going through the divorce crap but as far as a relationship spanning nearly 27 years she is becoming a shrinking image in the rear view mirror.

Your situation is so much more difficult than mine with your two young children. Their welfare is first. You sound like a good guy and a good and caring father. There are not enough of both in this world. You are going to be okay and you will find happiness again with or without WW.

If you live anywhere near Colorado let me know and I will meet you anywhere and the first barley pops are on me.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/13/07 06:59 PM
I will keep my Plan B going at least through the hearings if not until the papers are signed. Then I will know that I have done my best for my kids.

The kids are what this is about now. I would have given up on WW LONG ago if it weren't for my children, who deserve so much better than what they are getting. Ultimately, they will adapt and be okay, but It Doesn't Have To Be This Way. Argh. The kids have apparently been talking to WW about it--telling her that it's 3 against 1 that she should come back home.

"I don’t seem to have any real yearning for her and a little part of me started to feel sorry for her for the messy train wreck I believe her life will become. But I have no desire to muddy myself stopping it. I am sure this is just another hill on the rollercoaster, but it is feelings of apathy I have not yet experienced and I suspect these feelings will start to become more a part of me."

I think I'm entering the same place. I'm beginning to not care whether she comes back or not. I know that I can find someone better for myself. It's all so sad.

OM still hasn't filed for divorce. I don't think WW knows that.
Posted By: Mortarman Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/13/07 07:13 PM
You are entering the Plan B zone. You may think you dont care...that is fine. This is the fruits of Plan B!!!

But, dont make rash decisions, because most of the time, locked up inside, your love still continues. Plan B just locks that up.

You are doing fine.
Posted By: InHisCare Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/13/07 07:26 PM
sdguy,

I have been through those feelings recently as well.

Like MM said,
Quote
You are entering the Plan B zone. You may think you dont care...that is fine. This is the fruits of Plan B!!!


It is a very strange feeling. I am still coming to grips with it. One day I will have hope that things are going to be fine in time. The next I can't stand the thought of WH coming home - it's too painful.

But like MM also said...
Quote
dont make rash decisions, because most of the time, locked up inside, your love still continues


I am finding that most of these emotions change from day to day and that until I have one for a very extended amount of tie, I should not act on it.

In some ways it is still like the roller coaster, except you are in charge of this ride not your WW.

Be encouraged...I think there are a few of us going through the same feelings at the same time. At least it is good to not feel alone in this.

IHC
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/13/07 07:36 PM
Thanks, Mortarman. I really needed that bit of perspective.

Like you said, IHC. It's still a roller coaster, but I think that understanding (and trying to eliminate) the triggers helps shorten the dips.

It is nice to not be alone in this--good to have the support of others in the same place, but I hate that so many good people are suffering through this.
Posted By: InHisCare Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/13/07 07:43 PM
Quote
It is nice to not be alone in this--good to have the support of others in the same place, but I hate that so many good people are suffering through this


Ditto..it makes me so sad that this is truly such an epidemic in our society. UGH! For all the people who have found this site, so many others have not.

This place has truly been a life line to me and I know helps me grab on to the sanity that I so desperately need on a daily basis.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/14/07 08:40 PM
Feeling down again today. A big part of it is getting over the stomach bug, which has sapped most of my energy, but there's a depression component, too. I meet with my lawyer tomorrow to prepare for the Family Court Services session next week, and it's making me anxious. I guess I will find out tomorrow what she is asking for.

The Family Court Services thing is where WW and I sit down with some kind of court mediator and see if we can reach an agreement for child custody and the like. Then that mediator makes a recommendation to the court. If WW is holding to what she's said all along (50% custody), then I don't see it as a problem. She's pretty angry about Plan B (and her life, probably), so she may try to take it out on me in court. My lawyer is going to prep me tomorrow. I'm pretty sure that I can make it through the session without going Plan FU on her. I really want to avoid an ugly custody battle. She's a pretty good mother (if you throw out the affair and how it affects her children, and right now she is incapable of understanding that), she will come across as sane, and I probably can't win. California is a no-fault state.
Posted By: chrisner Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/14/07 09:06 PM
Hi sdguy,

Although I am not an expert, there may be a time and a place for Plan FU but it’s probably not in front of the mediator. But what an epic MB story that would be.

Hang in there. It really will get better.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/14/07 10:00 PM
Sorry to hear you are having a down day, sdguy. Been there, still doin' that too. It does get better.

I'm having a negotiation conference with WH and his lawyer and my lawyer next week. I'm glad it isn't a court appointed mediator...that would make it more stressful. Right now it is just the four of us trying to hammer an agreement out.

It's all so nerve-wracking. How in the world did we get here? A year ago today I had no clue what was coming and now I'll be sitting across a table from a man I don't know anymore dividing our lives. I'm hoping I can keep my emotions together. I've been pretty strong lately but it's because I don't have to deal directly with WH. I will have to face him next week and I am dreading it.

I'd rather get it done and over with, though. What actually happens is probably not nearly as bad as what I imagine will happen. Fear of the unknown again. I'd rather deal with knowing than not knowing.

Hang in there.....we're with you.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/14/07 10:32 PM
Quote
It's all so nerve-wracking. How in the world did we get here? A year ago today I had no clue what was coming and now I'll be sitting across a table from a man I don't know anymore dividing our lives. I'm hoping I can keep my emotions together.

So right. Is this my life? How did this happen? I really want to wake up. It's mind-boggling when I stop to think about it, so I generally try not to.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: More Plan B Questions - 03/15/07 10:34 PM
I met with my lawyer today. WW appears to be asking for 50% custody (as per what we are currently doing) as well as spousal and child support. Based on her declaration, I think it's because she needs money. There was nothing in what's been filed about finalizing the divorce, which is a bit of a relief for me.
Posted By: sdguy038 Advice? - 03/17/07 04:01 AM
Does anyone have advice on how to handle plan B when doing court stuff? For the Family Court Services meeting this week, WW and I sit down with a court-appointed social-worker-type person and see whether we can reach an agreement for child custody. It sounds like WW wants to continue our 50:50 arrangement, but we will have to talk in this meeting, and I'm a little concerned (as is my lawyer) about Plan B making me look like a non-cooperative parent. The recommendation of the arbitrator carries a lot of weight for the hearing that follows, and I don't want to come across like some kind of wacko. WW does a good job of appearing sane and rational.

I'm toying with the idea of relaxing my plan B just long enough to get through this meeting. She will be bringing the kids over on Sunday for our first exchange since my parents have left, so maybe I will meet her at the car and actually interact with her about the kids. And acknowledge her at the meeting.

Thoughts?

With respect to custody, I have decided that 50% is good enough. If I was convinced I could get full custody, I might do it just to make WW feel the effects of her actions, but I really don't want to take the kids away from their mother. Aside from the affair, she seems to be doing okay with them. So I think my strategy is to get into the meeting, get 50%, and get out. Not get dragged into any verbal sparring.

For the meeting, there is a Mediation Data Sheet that is supposed to be filled out while you're waiting for the meeting to start. My lawyer gave me one ahead of time and pointed out the key question: What parenting schedule would you like to have? I'm thinking about writing this in: Given that my wife has repeatedly brought her affair partner into her apartment in the presence of the children only one month after removing them from the family home, I question her parental judgment and think that the children would be better of with me, in the home in which they grew up, with the support of neighbors, and with the availability of my parents when required. Because I believe a custody battle is not in the best interest of the kids, I will be satisfied with a continuation of the 50% agreement we have been working with. I would ask, however, for a ruling that overnight visits by new romantic partners be prohibited when the children are present for a period of six months.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Advice? - 03/17/07 04:41 AM
Sdguy,

I will not be too far behind you....But.... I don't have minor children. In any case when I finally sit before a County Judge I will be in the ultimate Plan A. Cooperative and upright. I can only control me. Plan B will look bad to all in the court room.

I am rooting for you big time.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Advice? - 03/17/07 05:41 AM
Hmm. Revert to Plan A for the meting. I hadn't thought of that. That sounds like a pretty good idea, actually.
Posted By: TJD Re: Advice? - 03/17/07 05:48 AM
SD,

Chrisner's statement, "you can only control me".

I've read your posts.

You can get through the toughest of times. Strong, confident.

You'll do what is right for you and the kids.

No need to get involved with any verbal sparring, strong, confident for what is best for you and the kids. You know the issues. You know what is best for those kids.
Posted By: Eph525 Re: Advice? - 03/17/07 06:05 AM
Have to agree about reverting to plan A.

Just like chrisner, I am right behind you in terms of the "process."
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Advice? - 03/17/07 05:58 PM
I'm trying to think this through. If I go plan A, it seems likely that "the only reason WW is leaving is to pursue the affair" will come up. WW will counter that affair and our marriage are completely unrelated, we went through MC, we Did try. I would probably counter that

-our marriage never had a chance because
-WW was still working with OM and clearly emotionally attached,
-WW was never invested in MC--just going through the motions

And maybe

-Everything unfolded exactly according to the pattern of romantic affairs
-There is no reason to think this one won't end the way most of them do
-If WW gives up the affair, she will find that we can have a happy marriage again

If it goes this way, it will essentially be me holding the mirror up to WW, and she will HATE that. She is so stubborn that I'm afraid hearing this from me will make it That Much Harder for her to figure this out on her own (and admit it), and it seems like that's what has to happen before recovery is possible.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Advice? - 03/19/07 12:15 AM
Today was the first kid exchange without my parents being here (so I actually had to be present). I relaxed my plan B a bit (in advance of the mediation thing this week) and left her a voice mail last night about stuff I wanted her to bring. When they showed up at the house (late), I came out to meet them. I got my daughter out of the car and talked mostly with her. I had on sunglasses and avoided direct eye contact with WW. I said a couple of kid-related sentences to her but otherwise was very happy and upbeat with the kids. WW didn't hug them goodbye, and I had to remind DS7 to wave goodbye.

I'm really proud of myself. Not the slightest bit of trigger. What's more, I felt like the strong one while she looked like the weak, sick one. I know it's always been that way, but it actually felt that way today.

So later in the afternoon, I take the kids to their swimming lessons. They got dropped off at 12:30, and the lessons were at 3. I'm sitting there at the university pool when in walks WW. Parking was really difficult, so she says "Did you find parking?" as she walked up to me. I said "Barely" and then proceeded to ignore her. I was sitting on bleachers. She sat down not right next to me, but next to next to me (one over, one down). I angled myself so I didn't see her. When DD3's lesson finished, I went to get her. WW asked me if I wanted her to take DD3 to get dressed, and I responded clearly "No." When we came back from the locker room, I asked DD where she wanted to sit, where I had been (next to WW) or over on the other side of the pool where DS's lessons were, and she pointed over to the other side of the pool from where WW was sitting. I was civil in getting out. DD said she wanted to wait with WW while I helped DS get dressed, so I let her do that. I didn't say anything else to WW.

This sounds to me like what Schoolbus told me WW would do. I'm pleased that it didn't trigger me either, and that I still feel strong and determined. I hope the mediation goes as well as today did.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Advice? - 03/19/07 02:10 AM
Amazing, simply amazing. You are doing such a good job with your kids. You should be very proud of yourself!
Posted By: fightingback Re: Advice? - 03/20/07 02:26 PM
great job sdg!!!!!!!
keep up the good work.....
Posted By: chrisner Re: Advice? - 03/20/07 02:31 PM
You're a great dad SDG! She sees it too.
Posted By: InHisCare Re: Advice? - 03/20/07 06:32 PM
sdg,

When I went to mediation, I did not try to pull out any "stunts" with WH. I did not speak directly to him at any time. I spoke directly to the mediator. Because they handle this stuff all the time, they will be impressed with 2 people who can politely do what is in the best interests of the children.

I did not try to "stick it to him" in the meeting, but I stood up for the things I felt were important.

I however did not have a lawyer. But I don't think that they are involved in the mediation process. For me it was just my WH and I.

The only sticky point was when my WH tried to get the mediator to "make" me communicate with him (instead of using intermediaries). But, he was not able to pursuade me and gave up.

The mediator is great because they don't have an opinion one way or the other...they are very neutral.

Hope it all goes well.

IHC
Posted By: LilSis Re: Advice? - 03/20/07 07:20 PM
Hey sd...

Just wanted to pop in and wish you well. It is strange how there is this little club of us--a club NONE of us wanted to be in--who are all in about the same time frame.

I'm only in Day 16 of Plan B, but my "settlement conference" (whatever that means) is April 26. I assume it is the first meeting at which we will begin to hash over the distribution of our joint assets. How disgusting.

Custody and support will not be an issue, because WH isn't interestd in custody and support is state-mandated. But I have a list--a LOOOONG list--of things I want us to hash out, in the hopes of dragging this thing out.

I truly think that WH believed the D would just magically finalize, having never required him to go through any icky stuff or get his hands dirty. Poof! Marriage over! Now we can all be friends! Happy, happy, joy, joy!

So I feel for you...the ambivalence, the pain, the frustration, the disbelief...unbelievably, someone else feels it, too. What a sad, sad place we meet up in, isn't it? But I wish you and your kids the best; reading your story shows what a great dad you are. Your kids are so lucky to have you.

Your fellow unlucky member of the "Plan B 2 D Club,"
LilSis
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Advice? - 03/20/07 07:42 PM
Hey guy...

I just wanted to let you know how appreciative I am of the posts that you have made to me regarding my questioning moving forward with D. I have finally (just minutes ago) decided that I will not think on the subject again, not in depth, until the summer comes.

One problem at a time. WH has expressed to me that he believes that HE needs help, too, along with our DS. I need help, too. I hope to begin a cycle of healing, first with my son, followed by me. After counseling is established for DS, and payments are figured (I will be splitting the burdon with WH), I will be a bit more firm with Plan B. I have only spoken with WH regarding DS; WH offers up tidbits about himself, I DO NOT ask. I think I need some much needed silence, and much needed FUN with my kid.

Spring starts tomorrow, and then the warmth returns; lots of days to spend outdoors playing. I will be more at peace when we are active together.

So, again, thank you for your posts, they really gave me a lot of food for thought, especially the 'what's the hurry' thing...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Advice? - 03/20/07 09:52 PM
Thanks very much, all. I continue to feel strong, but I guess I'm also feeling some anxiety regarding the meeting on Thursday. I thought about trying to set something up with Jennifer to consult on just how to play it but think I have it figured out.

I think I'm going to go in, get 50% custody, ask for an order preventing overnight visits by members of the opposite sex for a period of six months, and get out.

If asked by the mediator, I will state that

--I choose marriage and absolutely believe our marriage can be reconciled

--WW's desire for divorce is all about pursuing the affair

and maybe that

--there was never a true opportunity for reconciliation, because WW never gave up OM and attempted to let me back in

WW will likely assert that we did try to reconcile, that she did get over OM, bla bla bla, and I don't want to get into a back and forth with her over that. I'm determined to stay calm and reasonable and rational and know that I can do that.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Advice? - 03/20/07 10:41 PM
Quote
I'm determined to stay calm and reasonable and rational and know that I can do that.


OH yes you can!!!!!!!!!! I love your plan....very simple statements...don't try to defend yourself....state it and get out....I would let your lawyer know just that and if WW pursue's the questioning further...I would simply reply "I don't agree"

the affair has nothing to do with our D..."I don't agree"
that will end the debate pretty quickly...what can one say to that.... JMHO

you are doing great....you CAN do this...
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Advice? - 03/21/07 02:44 PM
You're doing great, sdguy. Hang in there. You're plan for mediation sounds good. Calm and reasonable, but firm with your beliefs.

I understand your nerves, had them recently myself and appreciated your support. You should be proud of yourself, you were dealt a crappy hand and you're making the best of it. Your kids and WW are VERY lucky. You're kids probably already know it, your W will one day.
Posted By: vikingruler Re: Advice? - 03/21/07 03:57 PM
SD....

You ask for no contact with new relationship partners for six months.. meaning either of you have to be in a committed relationship for six months before introducing the kids AND the other parent needs to know before kids.

Overnights, that is simple no overnights until remarriage.

Don't back down, you need to establish boundaries for your children, even if their mom doesn't want too
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Advice? - 03/21/07 07:31 PM
Major anxiety set in this morning. I think it's just like the performance anxiety I suffer from--when I have to give a presentation in front of an unfamiliar group, I tend to get depressed and lose my appetite. I am pretty good at speaking, though, so once I get going I'm fine. I anticipate that tomorrow will be the same way--I have a good plan, the ability to execute it, and the high ground, so I'm pretty sure I will be fine.

Have you had your session yet, Fox?
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Advice? - 03/21/07 08:21 PM
I feel for you about the anxiety. I do that myself, when I actually get into it I do just fine. It's the build-up and the anticipation that I have a hard time with.

You'll do fine tomorrow. Think of what your WW is going through, knowing she is the one who caused all of this. And she doesn't HAVE to do this like you do, she CHOSE.

No, I haven't had my session yet. My lawyer ended up in the hospital so we had to cancel. He should be out today and is supposed to call me in the next couple of days to reschedule. I hope it is soon. I really feel the need to get on with it. I had the same kind of anxiety you are talking about. I was anxious, apprehensive, and sick to my stomache. Then it was canceled....and it was such a let down. Even with all those feelings I felt ready to do it. I was prepared and had myself all steeled to see WH.

After it was canceled I had a whole new set of feelings. Relief, frustration, anger, sadness, exhaustion. I was all over the board yesterday, close to tears one moment, very confident and sure of myself in the next. Just odd how many emotions you can go through all in one day. I never considered myself to be a moody person but I flip flopped every where yesterday.

Today I've felt different. I was surprised to come to the board and have nothing to report. I was just okay and it was a "normal" day. Nothing new to report, no frustrations to vent, just another day.

Although I do find today that I have less patience with other people's waywards. I have the tendency to want to shake them and say "who the heck do you think you are? What gives you the right to treat your spouse this way?"

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Advice? - 03/21/07 08:45 PM
Quote
You'll do fine tomorrow. Think of what your WW is going through, knowing she is the one who caused all of this. And she doesn't HAVE to do this like you do, she CHOSE.

I really hadn't thought about it this way. Thanks for the perspective.

Quote
After it was canceled I had a whole new set of feelings. Relief, frustration, anger, sadness, exhaustion. I was all over the board yesterday, close to tears one moment, very confident and sure of myself in the next. Just odd how many emotions you can go through all in one day. I never considered myself to be a moody person but I flip flopped every where yesterday.

Today I've felt different. I was surprised to come to the board and have nothing to report. I was just okay and it was a "normal" day. Nothing new to report, no frustrations to vent, just another day.

I think it's a trigger, like the other ones. Something that forces us out of the protection of plan B and makes us face the pain and suffering and madness and waste. Or at least, I'm afraid that's what it will do. And if we're mentally preparing ourselves for that, we're doing a bit of our own triggering, so I can see why you were on the roller coaster yeseterday. Glad to hear it didn't last too long. I'm thinking now that I should allow for me being bent for most of tomorrow.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Advice? - 03/21/07 09:12 PM
sdg....thinking of you, good luck tomorrow....and yep Its going to be a big trigger....even though knowing that wont make it hurt any less.

(((((sdg)))))

I'll be praying for your inner peace tommorrow.......don't let her steal that away from you.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Advice? - 03/21/07 09:33 PM
Quote
I'm thinking now that I should allow for me being bent for most of tomorrow.


Allow for it but don't cater to it. Sometimes I make time for myself to cry and be pitiful alone and then I have a hard time shutting it off!

I had taken the afternoon off yesterday to go the the mediation and then have a little bit of recovery time before I had to pick up DDs. Mediation was canceled but I took the afternoon off anyway. Allowed myself to go through the emotions but did stuff for me too. I didn't just wallow in self pity and dwell on the situation, I did stuff for me.

It'll be tough. I agree that it is a trigger and it makes me mad that I have to come out of darkness to deal with it all again. But I am also so much stronger because of the darkness.

Now when I get triggered, it's more of kick from a BB gun rather than a big game rifle.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Advice? - 03/21/07 09:45 PM
At first I wrote 'plan on being bent' but realized that it wasn't right. Allow for being bent seems better, and I'm thinking mostly in terms of whether I will be useful at work. Today, for example, I'm not worth much.

I think it's possible (if not likely) that I will come out tomorrow feeling strong and good. I'll try to do something for myself (massage?) regardless.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Advice? - 03/21/07 10:00 PM
Yup, allow for it (glad you're not planning for it). Denying it may happen isn't any better than catering to it. Good way to view it.

I feel pretty useless at work on some days and it makes me feel guilty. My employer and fellow employees have been so supportive, I feel like I am letting them down when I can't focus and give my full attention to my work. I completely understand where you are at with this.

It's absolutely possible that you will come out tomorrow feeling strong. You are doing what you need to do and putting your children first. That alone should make you feel good about yourself. WW doesn't have that luxury, she is the cause of all this pain and destruction.

I love how the waywards get us in this mess and then expect us to be "fair". Their version of "fair". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

We're with you, sdguy. You ARE strong and good.

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: Advice? - 03/22/07 01:35 AM
SDguy,

Knock them dead tommorow. I will be thinking of you and your kids all day. Be the shield. Your kids will grow up good and will always remember that they have a great father.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Advice? - 03/22/07 01:42 AM
sdguy, hold steady tomorrow. You are doing so well and you have the support of so many. Treat this meeting as any other that you may have, just like a public speech or presenting for a department head your research. The butterflies will fade as the conversation goes on. You'll be just fine. Hey, you could always use the ole picture everybody in their underwear thing...
Posted By: Eph525 Re: Advice? - 03/22/07 01:57 AM
sdguy,

You will be in my prayers tonight and tomorrow. Hold your head high and know that you are standing up for what is right.

I think your gameplan is solid - I'll be stealing some of it when my time at mediation comes in April <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Advice? - 03/22/07 04:09 AM
Got the kids back today. They were telling me about the dinner they had last night and commented that mommy ran out of milk. Then DD3 told me that "OM brouht some over." DS7, knowing how I feel about OM and that I don't really want to hear about him, quickly added that he didn't do much with him because he was in the bath. I reminded him that it's okay if he has fun with OM.

Sigh. Nothing is easy.

Thanks for all the good wishes. It's so great to have a group of people who understand pulling for you. The concept of consoling one another in person rather than electronically is appealing, but I suspect I would wind up having my own affair if it were possible.

Anyway, Ill let you know how it goes tomorrow.
Posted By: XtremeBS Re: Advice? - 03/22/07 07:35 PM
Hey SDguy,

I just wanted you to know that I have been on this site for years reading and getting advice form all of you guys but up until now I never signed up. I have read your posts from the start and you and I are going thru most of the same things.

I have a DD4 and an 11 year old step son… and I live for them both. It’s so hard to stay sane thru all this but we need to be there for our kids.

It’s crazy that the things your WW has done to you my WW also is doing to me. I really believe that it is all textbook fog. It’s still not easy to deal with even when you know that they are out of there mind.

I really have been praying for you and I know that something good will come out of this for both of us.

I know that this is the first you are hearing from me but I feel like I know you, and if you every want to hang out and vent I live in Temecula (an hour form San Diego).

God Bless
Posted By: sdguy038 Mediation report - 03/22/07 08:17 PM
I survived. I actually think I did really well. We agreed on 50% custody as per our previous agreement. I was calm, civil, and collected the whole time. I don't think I LB'ed much, even.

WW didn't look up when I entered the lobby, so I sat somewhere else. Then all the people there had to watch a video on why making mediation work is really a good idea. Then we waited some more in the lobby before we got in with the mediator.

The mediator asked us each questions, and you're supposed to respond to the mediator rather than interrupt one another. WW answered that the agreement works, the children are what's most important, that she thought there should be more FTF communication regarding the children but that the bulk of communication was via email or TM, that we each get along well with the children, and that she didn't have any concerns about my ability to be a parent.

I answered that the kids are adjusting okay (they don't like it and would rather live in one house), that email works fine for me (the mediator was pleased that we had an effective form of communication and said we were ahead of most people--a win for me), that the kids love her, but that based on her routine exposure of the kids to her married affair partner, I do have concerns about her parental judgement. Mediator let WW respond, and WW said that yes, OM has been over for dinner, not every night, plays with the kids some, that he has divorce in the works and is not a short-term fixture in her life. Mediator said (to WW) that in general having new partners around the kids so soon is not good for them but that the court wouldn't stipulate anything about her personal life. Since WW wouldn't agree to prohibit overnight visits, I had the option of letting it go to a judge, but the mediator didn't think the judge would take any action without evidence that OM represents a threat to the children. Rather than risk the agreement, I backed down, having been heard and gotten an appropriate response from the mediator. (not that WW heard it, I'm sure).

We had to wait in the lobby while the mediator typed it up, I couldn't leave the OM's divorce alone. I said 'that case was dismissed and can't be reopened.' WW replied 'All I know is what OM's lawyers told him.' SDG: 'I wonder why they would have told him that.' and then 'You should check with the court.' WW: 'I don't have the case number. Do You have the case number?' SDG: 'Yes, I looked it up. It's pretty simple.' WW: 'Well, I'm not that worried about it.'

So I planted the seed. It would have been better if someone else had done it, but I couldn't resist. I hope it grows. I checked with my lawyer for other possible interpretations, but the case was dismissed in Feb of 06, so his lawyers must have known this when he met with them in December of 06.

On the way out of the meeting, I looked at her and said 'Do you think you deserve spousal support from me?' She looked a little taken aback and hemmed and hawed 'I don't know . . . not very much . . . and probably only for a short time . . . don't know the finances.' She said some other foggy low-grade make-me-look-bad things, but nothing significant.

Overall, a pretty good outcome for me, although it doesn't feel that way. I'm drained and triggered over the OM's divorce thing. I'm tempted to fill in her parents on the details, because it sounds more and more like OM is just stringing WW along (*gasp*) and that WW has a Great Fall coming. But I'm not going to. I'm going to sink back into my Plan B.

I really want a massage, but I didn't schedule one and the clinic is booked. Bummer.
Posted By: believer Re: Mediation report - 03/22/07 08:33 PM
Good job. Your wife will be thinking about the OM's divorce. It sounds like he is not telling her the truth. OM very seldom leave their families for the OW.

Stay dark. She will probably start thinking about it and doubting him.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Mediation report - 03/22/07 08:47 PM
Good for you, sdguy! Sounds like it went as well as could be expected. You stood your ground and got your point across.

I have to think a bit more on how to handle the no overnights with the opposite sex for either parent when they have custody of the children....my lawyer tells me that a judge will not tell WH (or me) what to do with our personal lives. But somehow, I want this point made. Mr. W gave me some good advice on this issue, I'm just trying to work it in right.

I'm proud of you, sdguy. It's tempting to get back into the fight...but don't. Plan B, you know it works. She needs to find out all the info regarding OM on her own. It will come, just try to be patient. The A will be destroyed by the lies between her and OM. You've planted the seed, now watch what happens with it. Those waywards are a suspicious lot, I dont' imagine she'll just ignore it. Especially if she thinks you know something she doesn't know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Mediation report - 03/22/07 10:16 PM
Thanks for stopping by, XTremeBS, and giving a glimpse of your situation. Post more and, as you have seen, you will get great advice.

I agree that it's textbook fog. It doesn't make it any easier to watch, which is one of the points of Plan B. The long, slow train wreck, and all we can do is stand here and say "But . . . but . . . ."
Posted By: fightingback Re: Mediation report - 03/23/07 12:45 AM
sdg!!!!!!!!!! great job...I can only imagine the weight you were carrying around and tonight will bite...but as you said back on the horse tomorrow. try to squeeze in a massage this weekend, better late than never.
keep up the good work.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Mediation report - 03/23/07 01:01 AM
sdguy, BRAVO! You made it through a gut wrenching day, and what's great, you got to expose OM's lies to WW without it seeming so obvious. It was part of discussing the care of your children, and it has merit in the discussion.

The next couple of days will be a bit rougher than usual, but you know that will fade and you will be cozy back in Plan B

I'm going to a baby shower on Saturday, and then I was thinking of taking DS to see a movie sometime. BTW, throat is right as rain again. I played outside for about an hour after picking DS up from daycare. It's so nice to be outside and active.

I know that the cyber-support group thing can be a bit tough, without the 'physical' support of seeing a friends reaction or having them pat you on the back or laugh at your self depracating humor, etc, and so on. The GREAT thing about your support group here, is that we ALL understand (BS, FWS, FBS, Recovered, etc.). You will never find so many so interested in your personal recovery. It's like we're all vested in each other, and that is good, as it keeps us all going, and helps us face our fears, and heal.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Mediation report - 03/23/07 04:51 AM
Feeling pretty good, actually. I saw a person who was still completely fogged. It's pretty clear she hasn't really thought through what she's doing, that it's garden variety WW stuff, and that it will all fall apart sooner or later. If it's later, I'm okay. I already feel strong in my plan B again, and I know that she is suffering, whether she admits it or not.

I miss my wife. The mother of my children. The sad, pathetic person I saw today was not that person. I would like to help her, but she is beyond my help, and I have no use for her. I really hope to see my wife again, though.

I agree completely about this support group. I have friends that I can still talk to, but there's really no substitute for a group of people who "get it" and can speak from all angles of the problem. I can't say enough how much I appreciate all of you. I recommend this place all the time now. And I feel a personal investment in all of you. I want All of us to succeed and know that we will in one way or another.

Quote
BTW, throat is right as rain again .

Better Life Through Chemistry.
Posted By: Eph525 Re: Mediation report - 03/23/07 04:56 AM
Glad you made it though today.

I know what you mean about seeing a pathetic replacement for your wife. That is something I see every day when I drop off and pick up my kids - a woman who looks miserable, sad, depressed, a shell of her former self - truly an alien.
Posted By: InHisCare Re: Mediation report - 03/23/07 06:23 PM
sdg,

It is great to come to this place and know that there are other people who know exactly what you are going through. It stinks that we are here, but I am glad also to have the support...

You sound great and strong! I am happy that you are finding it easier to recover from triggers. I think that plan B definitely helps in that area. We may get triggered but the rcovery time shortens and we feel stronger after each one.

Good for you in mediation...it is a very stressful day, no doubt, but you did well!

IHC
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Mediation report - 03/24/07 04:30 AM
I was more triggered than I thought. I had to fight back urges to contact both ILs and OMW to tell them WW still thinks OM has filed for divorce (which he hasn't). I want her to know that he's a scumbag and is stringing her along.

I had lunch today with a friend, who asked me if I was also turning 40 this year (which I am). He was curious about how I was going to celebrate. My birthday is in December. I told him that I didn't have specific plans, but I hoped that I would be celebrating with my wife, and if that was the case I wouldn't care what I was doing.

Is that wrong?
Posted By: fightingback Re: Mediation report - 03/24/07 05:28 AM
sdg...no its not wrong...its that light at the end of the tunnel....what all this hard work is for....

that's what you keep plugging for...thats the hope you are keeping alive.

I agree completely about this support group. I have friends that I can still talk to, but there's really no substitute for a group of people who "get it"

thats just it....validation....I was stumbling around and I would NEVER have had the strength I have now, if not for this place and the so many wonderful people who are here asking for nothing and just giving so much back. I have learned more about myself through this journey...about boundaries and just about living life in a healthy way. I can truly say I am changed forever...as a result of the A and as a result of the growing and learning after the A.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Mediation report - 03/24/07 01:45 PM
sdguy, it it not WRONG to think about what your ulitmate goal is here. You WANT your M, you want your W, and you are fighting like h3ll to reach it. We grieve every time that contact is made.

It's never wrong to want your wife back. I want my H back, may not get that, but I WANT it. For me, our time may have passed, who knows, this may have been the last false recovery, to be replaced by real recovery WAAAAAY down the road. I don't know. After ALL that I've been through with WH, I STILL want my M, but a good, solid, REAL M.
Posted By: sdguy038 Triggered Again - 03/25/07 01:35 AM
I've had the kids since Wednesday. Today was DS7's baseball game. I've been doing assistant coaching, but today I have the kids, including DD3, so I informed the guys at the last game that I probably wouldn't be able to coach too much today.

A couple of hours prior to the game, I get a TM: I will be at DS7's game and will watch DD3 while you coach. I responded (probably shouldn't have): I already planned to watch DD3. We get to the game. DS7 is doing the warmup stuff. I have snacks, markers and paper, a towel to sit on--I'm ready. A little closer to the start of the game, I took DD over to the playground, where she began playing with the sister of one of the other players (talked with her mom in pre-game and filled her in on my situation).

The game starts. I'm standing over by the playground, but watching the game. Up walks WW. She basically walked up to DD and took over. I ignored her and started talking to one of the other moms, but the next thing I know, WW is walking over towards our stuff with DD. I was torn about what to do. I went back toward the stuff--DD wanted her sunglasses. WW told me as much. I told DD if she needed anything she could tell me. WW said "What's the big deal?" I let WW take DD back to the playground and went back over to the game and coached.

I was really tempted to get into it with her ("If you want to be their mother on my days then you should come home" or after calming a bit "You went against what I wanted to do here") but didn't. I remember what Schoolbus said WW would do:

Quote
Because her plan clearly is to make a fool of herself trying to make a fool of you, in public. This paragraph lays out the plan, with her roadmap for you. She was not wise to write this for you to see. You are now aware of her plan, SD, so watch for it. Watch ESPECIALLY for two or three things: first, the blatant attack, where she will sit where you obviously must see/interact with her, or for her to approach you outright. Second, watch for her to suddenly or accidently "bump into" you, which will be planned on her part. Third, watch for the most insidious plan, where she will approach you ever-so-kindly, putting on a show of how civil and perfectly well-behaved and kind she is to you, with compliments included, in almost loving fashion. She will try all three to get you "to see her".

So I did nothing. A bit later, she called my cell phone (from her Affairphone, no less). I let it go to voicemail. She told me DD had to use the bathroom and they were going to look for one. I knew perfectly well where the bathroom was, and if DD had been with me, it wouldn't have been a problem. WW found it eventually. After the game, I went over to the playground to get DD. WW saw me coming and sent DD over. I took DD, turned, and walked away without saying anything.

WW left without ever saying anything to DS. I've calmed down (not that I was ever really hot) and think I did pretty well. I'm back on how pathetic it is that she thinks she will have a life with this POS.

I'm open for tips on how I might have done it better. I think reacting to the sunglasses thing was a mistake (I was worried she was going to sit down and start giving DD snacks that I brought).

SL, I don't think your time has passed. He hasn't bottomed out yet.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Triggered Again - 03/25/07 01:53 AM
sdguy,

She pitched a few curves and changeups and you still did great. I don't see any real LB's or EO's. Anything anyone here could tell you is just 20-20 hindsight. You did what you had to without any notice. The kids got through without any upset and that was gold. That stinks that she never really watched your son play or said goodbye. Has he noticed that?

If you ever want to come to Colorado I could use a good assistant coach.

You have been a total rock these past few weeks. Great job. Your kids will remember how you were there for them forever.
Posted By: KaylaAndy Re: Triggered Again - 03/25/07 02:07 AM
I would consider sending the following text message next time she intrudes on your time:

Quote
[color:"blue"]Until I am over the hurt you have caused me and our children, I am not interested in 'co-parenting' experiences. [/color] [color:"red"]If you want to co-parent, come home.
[/color]
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggered Again - 03/25/07 07:28 PM
Triggered triggered triggered. WW sent me an email yesterday asking for stuff for the kids--clothes, mostly. She asked for the kids' membership cards for the zoo, so she will probably take the kids to the zoo (this is good. . . but will He go, too?). She also asked me to burn our digital photo library onto CDs or, if I didn't want to do it, arrange a time so that she can (Oh, sure, Now she wants to have pictures).

I had a hard time getting started today. Now I just dropped the kids off. I took them to the front door, dropped the stuff. I was in the process of hugs and kisses when she opened the door and said "Howdy." I completely ignored her, finished my goodbyes, and walked away.

Triggered. There was nothing in the email, really, but it upsets me anyway and makes me irrational. Any contact is hurtful. I'm still angry. But I'm off to the beach, so maybe that will help.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Triggered Again - 03/25/07 08:43 PM
ugh!!!!!! sorry sdg.....all of a sudden she wants stuff from home....thats whats getting to you... scr#$w her. I would not burn her pictures...or let her come and do it...didn't she have an opportunity to remove her belongings before the LSA???? grrrr!!!
I am angry for you. dang WS's are so selfish. seems like she is inventing reasons to push your buttons.

btw, your play at the ball game was perfect...you are my hero....that takes pure self control...your kids are so lucky to have you. how on earth did you restrain yourself....I would have wanted to tell her to flip off!!!

I hope your walk on the beach helps...I need one too so take a big inhale of that salty air for me, huh???
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Triggered Again - 03/25/07 11:21 PM
Ugh!

So sorry about your recent run ins.

Next time ya need to coach the older child, maybe you could bring someone along to keep an eye on your three year old.

Hope the beach was warm and relaxing for you.

~ Marsh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggered Again - 03/25/07 11:42 PM
Too much contact over the last few days, and I'm still triggered. The first 40 minutes of my beach walk I was having the conversation in my head. It went back and forth between 'what she's doing is morally wrong, what are you exposing the kids to and teaching, don't you get that' and plan FU. Pretty angry.

Then I realized that I hadn't even looked at the ocean. And I remembered that I was going to have a thought for SL and take a breath for FB. And so I sat down and looked out at the water and thought about how great it is to have a support group like this one, and I sent out positive, happy, peaceful ocean thoughts to all the Killer Bees: Chris, SL, FB, Fox, LilSis, IHC, Still, Luna, Ken, eph, eav, DesireWisdom. Hope you guys all received them.

Feeling a little better now.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Triggered Again - 03/25/07 11:47 PM
ARGH!!! You handled the situation with great restraint and dignity. You amaze us all. It's quite tough to Plan B with these run-ins, especially as of late. Your WW is having a really TOUGH time here.

SB called her out on all of this behavior.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I still have hope that my M can be saved, but hope can bring suffering, as we quietly wait to start over.

I like Kayla's approach to TM'ing your wife regarding her recent run-ins.
Posted By: Mortarman Re: Triggered Again - 03/26/07 12:29 PM
There is movement here. She has hit the next phase. She is trying engage you yet again, but now she gets nothing in return. So she leaves and doesnt know what that means...what to do with it.

She will be back to try again. She will invent a "crisis."

Kayla stated that you should text her and tell her to get home if she wants to co-parent. While I love the sentiment, I cant agree with that one because I think it is more important right now to defend that boundary...to stay as dark as possible. Just one text message will let her know that you are still there...still engaged. And you dont want that. I think you handled it well by just walking up and getting your DD and walking away. My wife also played at this...making things look she was there to be with the kids. But, in the middle of the affair, it was just an act. Sure she loved the kids...but they werent her priority! So, dont let her knock you off center.

Instead, when her silliness comes and she sees no reaction out of you...and watches you from afar as you are happy (or at least appear to be) and she has become irrelevent...she will begin to panic.

Just because you cant see things happen doesnt mean they arent. Keep defending your boundaries. Stay dark. Whether you know it or not, it is getting worse for her.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Triggered Again - 03/26/07 01:02 PM
sdg..thanks for thinking of us.....
hope you get some more inner peace....I hate that time alone when your mind just goes off wandering....I am trying to think of a way to reset my mind....almost like a rubberband that you snap to bring your focus back to those things you can actually affect change in....like your self.

kind of like SL shaking her head to get the thoughts out...I tried that but it gave me a headache...maybe I was trying too hard!!!!!!!lol

well, it is nice to have the support of all these killer bees.....but maybe someday we wont have to be killers and we can turn back into the honey bees that we were....
Posted By: chrisner Re: Triggered Again - 03/26/07 02:58 PM
Sdguy,

I think Sarge Mortarman nailed it. Wayzilla sent two emails this weekend that tried to initiate bogus divorce crap paperwork contact. I did not respond to either. DD19 passed along my response to accomplish her requests without my having to see her skinny butt. From what I am hearing she has doubled up on her daily dosage of Noassatol and her eyes are sunken with profound black bags. Sounds very pretty.

But again, Mortarman is right. Don’t underestimate the burden the wayward is carrying around at this point. Maybe reality does start to seep in and they start to get short glimpses of who really wrought this pain and what is being lost. The original plan during the glory days of the affair of still having the pathetic crying betrayed spouse to fall back on if the affair comes apart is over. They know now that the betrayed spouse is moving on and in time will not be looking back. They reach the cliff they have been working so hard to get too and it’s time to have to take the dark jump into the unknown and it is probably scary up there. We know that it's scary because the waywards put us on that same cliff and we finally chose to jump when we went into Plan B.

You are doing great. You know you have a future and are losing any fear about moving into it. She is not as certain.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Triggered Again - 03/26/07 03:27 PM
sdguy, you did well with the contact. We can't do it perfectly everytime. Your detachment is bothering her, keep it up.

Thanks for throwing good thoughts out for me at the beach, I need all of them that I can get.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggered Again - 03/26/07 06:07 PM
Thanks for the vote of confidence, guys. I think staying dark is the way to go, but I would certainly like to express the sentiment Kayla mentioned. I'm not sure I could do it without LB'ing, though.

I'm still triggered from all the contact. It was hard to get started today, plus I find myself wanting to know what's going on with WW. Is the Plan B working? Are there any changes? But this is not what Plan B is about. Like FB said, I need to reset myself back onto me, because worrying about the other stuff is a path to madness. The actions of my WW have been pretty textbook so far, so I will keep up the faith in my Plan B.
Posted By: Mortarman Re: Triggered Again - 03/26/07 06:17 PM
Quote
Thanks for the vote of confidence, guys. I think staying dark is the way to go, but I would certainly like to express the sentiment Kayla mentioned. I'm not sure I could do it without LB'ing, though.

I'm still triggered from all the contact. It was hard to get started today, plus I find myself wanting to know what's going on with WW. Is the Plan B working? Are there any changes? But this is not what Plan B is about. Like FB said, I need to reset myself back onto me, because worrying about the other stuff is a path to madness. The actions of my WW have been pretty textbook so far, so I will keep up the faith in my Plan B.

It is evident that Plan B is working for two reasons:

1.Your wife is pressing the boundaries (people dont get angry over or make an effort at that which you do not care about...if she was "gone" she wouldnt even try!!)

2. You were doing fine before the contact. This means by staying dark, you dont have to live all of these triggers. Right? This is the main reason for Plan B. And it has been working for you!!

So, go back to darkness, give it a few days, and it will settle down again.

I promise.
Posted By: Eph525 Re: Triggered Again - 03/27/07 02:39 AM
Hey, just wanted to say you are doing great. Keep her in darkness.

Thanks for remembering me. I count so many of you here as my friends. Even though we may never meet, our lives are forever entwined because of our common experiences and our encouragement of one another.

Hebrews 3:13(NIV):

But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today....
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggered Again - 03/27/07 04:49 AM
I got an email today from WW. Because I am hypersensitive from recent contact, I am somewhat triggered. WW recently got a kid cell phone. I asked him to start using it so that I would know when it was him on the phone as opposed to WW. Here's the email:

"Thanks for the stuff. If you do use sippy cups with DD3 you might want to double check the covers before you use them. One you sent was still dirty with I'm chocolate milk. I'm guessing someone didn't take out the plastic valve and wash them separately.

The phone will be kept in DD's bag. DS7 agrees that he doesn't need to take it to school. It can be charged with the same charger as yours. The one that came with his phone I will be keeping here.

Also I will be giving my Verizon phone back to you soon (along with the charger which you can choose to use for DS7 or not). When I do you can start paying your Verizon bill from your own funds. My cell phone number is 760-xxx-xxxx."

Okay, so before I say anything, I will stipulate that the plan B thing for me to do is to ignore it and not overanalyze it the way I am about to (I'm human). Also, under no circumstances will I reply to it.

So, on the surface, this is only mildly poisonous. If she is moving on, she doesn't need to keep the cell phone in our family plan, and I find it somewhat hurtful to me because I don't want her to move on. But then I thought about it a little more.

She's the one who extended our plan 2 years when she got the kid phone a couple of months ago, and Now she wants to get rid of her phone? Plus, Saturday was the first time she called me from the Infideliphone. Then, Sunday, she let DS7 call me from that phone. Now she emails me with her New Cell Phone Number, which is no longer in my area code, but is in the area code where OM lives.

At the mediation on Thursday, I basically called her out that OM hasn't made any move to divorce his wife and potentially lied to WW about it. So now I'm wondering if this cell phone thing is her response. 'See? We are going to be together forever. We share the same cell phone plan (and I want to make sure that you know it).' It just seems like she's pushing the cell phone thing at me a little too hard. Or am I overreacting? It's okay--you can tell me.

Here's the response I'm not going to send: "It's really great that you share a cell phone plan with OM. Let me know if actually makes a move to divorce his wife so that he can legally be with you. Or on second thought, don't."

Okay. Back to dark. Me me me me me me me. Me!
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Triggered Again - 03/27/07 02:31 PM
sdguy, she sooooo wants to push your buttons and get you to respond. She still bugs me when she tells you how to parent, "you might want to double check the covers before you use them" Blech...

Don't respond! You're doing great. She's probably changing tactics now that you didn't respond to the first venomous email. She probably thinks she is "helping" by reminding you to check the covers of the sippy cups. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

She'll come to those realizations about OM in due time. You can count on it.

Can't offer much in the analysis...probably best to stay away from that if you can. I know the urge to do so, though.

Be tough with your Plan B, it is getting to her. She doesn't strike me as someone who likes to be ignored. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: Triggered Again - 03/27/07 02:56 PM
Sdguy,

I have recieved 5 emails from Wayzilla over the past month regarding divorce paperwork, cell phones, money transfers ect. I have only responded to 3 of these and used a total of 6 words, "Yes" "That's fine" and "Yes to Both"

There is no required response from you based on that email. Send nothing.
Posted By: Mortarman Re: Triggered Again - 03/27/07 02:59 PM
I'm with Chrisner...no response needed!
Posted By: InHisCare Re: Triggered Again - 03/27/07 09:54 PM
You already know...no response...you said that yourself, but it is nice to get out what you would say if you were going to say something!!!

I would have to agree that this is her "push" back for mediation.

They always have to do something that they think puts them back in control...only she is not in control of you anymore...you are!

This trigger period should pass soon. It has been with you for a while and now should be coming to a close soon. The you will be on top of the world again. It's coming and I wanted to remind you of that!

IHC
“If you do use sippy cups with DD3 you might want to double check the covers before you use them. One you sent was still dirty with I'm chocolate milk. I'm guessing someone didn't take out the plastic valve and wash them separately.”

Here would be my email:

Dear Darling Wayward Wife,

Thank you for you concern regarding the care and maintenance of “Sippy Cups”. I can not describe the shame and humiliation I felt when you so lovingly pointed out the error in my neglect. To assure you that this will never happen again I have instituted the following measures:

1) Each sippy cup placed in a Tuttnauer model 2540MK steam autoclave ($ 4,994.00 ordered on your credit card) for the prescribed ten minute sterilization.
2) Each sippy cup will then swabbed for bacteria to be grown in a Parter Medical Products Model 3561 100mm Petri dishes.
3) Each Sippy Cup will be sealed and labeled with the corresponding Petri dish containing the bacteria sample.
4) After a ten day growth period the Petri dish growth medium will be inspected. Approved Sippy Cups will moved into the general use population of Sippy Cups.
5) Failed Sippy Cups will be returned to the Tuttnauer autoclave for re-sterilization.
6) Unacceptable bacterial growth will be forwarded to the University of Colorado Medical School for identification testing and bio-hazard disposal.

In addition I have contacted Richard Belanger who invented the “Sippy Cup” which he later licensed to Playtex for production. I bet you did not know that Mr. Belanger now serves as a design engineer at Adhesive Machinery, a company he helped form, and has been issued several patents related to glue guns. I also used your credit card to order one of Mr. Belanger newest glue gun designs. His take was as follows:

“Thoroughly clean the cup (especially the lid and plastic stopper) between uses. Liquid can easily become trapped in the nooks and crannies of a sippy cup and valve, leading to the growth of bacteria and mold. If you can't wash a sippy cup right away, try to at least give it a good rinse. If that's not possible, drain any remaining liquid and take it apart. Periodically check your lids and valves for damage or mold.”

When I told Mr. Belanger of my subtly more aggressive plan he replied, “Yeah, that should work too.”

Hopefully these steps will fully address your concern about the future care given the “Sippy Cups” under my authority. Thank you again for pointing out my woeful and hideous neglect.

Love and Kisses

Sdguy038
Awesome. I really needed that. Great stuff.

I'll save that one for Plan FU.
chrisner! ROFLMAO! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Freaking hilarious, chrisner!

SD, She wants you to react to her sooooooo badly.

dark dark dark

Sharing a phone plan means nothin!

~ Marsh
Two quick things:

First...ROFLMAO!! Chrisner! You crack me up! I love your response!

Second, FYI, triggers are what they are--they are YOU having a post-traumatic memory. Just so you know, I am four years past my D being final, and my exH triggered me today!! (He IM'ed me to say he was taking his latest conquest to one of my favorite lodges--and I got mad). The point though is to a) not respond to them, and the b) take care of yourself. Okay--you're triggery. What can you do that you enjoy a lot that is very sensory and that keeps you in the present? I like to take bubble baths--or buy a new perfume--or get myself a little chocolate treat. I'll buy myself that CD I've been thinking of buying--or try a new wine. I might even just grab a goofy Disney movie and watch "Beauty and the Beast" with my 17yo and 11yo girls!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> The point is, to do something that involves your senses--something that you LIKE that can really root you to the good things in the here and now.

Trigger Relief--better than Rolaids!

Your faithful friend,


CJ
Yeah, I know the phone plan means nothing. I've known about the Infideliphone since the second D-Day in October. I'm just suspicious that she's pushing it into my face all of a sudden on the heels of me questioning the emperor's clothes-divorce. If the phone plan is all she's got, the Sippy Cup Queen is in trouble.

Dark! Me!
sdguy, I think you should take a bubble bath while singing along to your iPOD, "I Will Survive" (Gloria Gayner), and sipping champagne. Now, if you have to do something more manly, drop the champagne from the list <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

After Chrisner's post, I felt like I was at work again. I also felt like I was watching the movie "My Cousin Vinny" when Mona Lisa Vito talks about the faucet leak...Fricken hilarious! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
((( sdguy )))

You are getting tons of great advice and support here. Just wanted to give you a hug....

car
Dear SDguy,

I know that I am breaking apart my children's home and leaving them in a single parent environment...

...and I know that I am dishonoring every vow I ever made...

...and I know that my character has been dishonest, untrustworthy, and spiteful...

...and I know that I am leaving my own children for my own selfish pleasure...

...and I know that I am purposely hurting them in the deepest way that a parent CAN hurt a child--by leaving...

...But I have their best interests and their HEALTH as my concerns, and as such, I worry about the speck of dust they have in their sippy cup.

Oh, and By The Way--I know that you can offer me security, stability, honestly, loyalty, and faithfulness...

...I know that we built a home
...a family
...and a life together.

But the OM really loves me. We have a phone plan together and don't need your cell phone (lifting nose haughtily into the air).

See? That's REAL commitment.


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> There Sdguy. Does that lessen the pain just a bit? to see how silly she looks??



~~CJ
Wow, CJ. That's another great one. Thanks.

I've been thinking about the triggering and trying to figure out why things have been getting to me over the past couple of days. My actions have been okay, but my thoughts haven't. I've been obsessing about the Sippy Cup Queen.

I think the significant thing was at the mediation, when I found out that she doesn't know what's going on with OM's lack of divorce filing and that he has probably been lying to her. I didn't really know whether the infidels had some grand plan or reason why he hadn't filed for divorce, but at the mediation I found out that WW really doesn't know that he has to. Which means that almost certainly he's been lying to her. I know this is to be expected, but getting confirmation that he really is that big a POS and that she really is that clueless did something to me. Gave me hope? Or maybe just showed me an angle that I feel like I should be able to exploit somehow. The whole Problem-Solver-I-Should-Be-Able-To-Fix-This thing again.

It certainly threw me off track--to the point that I'm worrying about what she was doing at the baseball game and trying to discern meaning from the cell phone thing. I know what I need to do--get back to focusing on me. What she does is what she does. I Can't Fix It. Let it go. Be Still.

Thanks again for the suggestions and coaching. This place, you people, and the support you have given me have been such a blessing I can't imagine where I would be without it.
Not much time this morning...but just a reminder! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SD, you don't know what's going on inside her head, and to try to figure it out now will make you crazy. Try to put it away. Try not to dwell on what she's doing or saying or thinking--it only hurts and won't get you anywhere. You don't know what is happening on the other side of the Plan B, and part of the advantage of Plan B is that you're protecting yourself from the hurt.

I know that this is hard.

You're doing really well. You'll do even better if you can get a handle on your thoughts. Your husband is still in there somewhere. The good years you had together aren't a lie. She made a terrible mistake and hasn't been able to recover from it--can't fight off the addiction. Emotionally, he doesn't know which way is up right now. She's a Fogged-Out Zombie. She'll figure it out sooner or later. For your sake, I hope it's sooner.

You know that you have done all you can and more. Re-read your brother's words. They certainly apply for you.

(((SD)))

Back at 'cha.
Sippy Cup Email Number 2 (4 Days Later)


Dear Darling Wayward Wife,

Sensitive to your extreme concern, I did not want to leave you out of the loop regarding the ongoing Sippy Cup situation. There have been a couple minor setbacks in my plan but I really feel I have it under control now. Remember that the next time you see the kids that they can tend to exaggerate stories at their age.

The Tuttnauer Model 2540MK steam autoclave arrived yesterday and what a beautiful machine it was. It looks like something off the bridge of the Starship Enterprise. I wanted to start using it right away but discovered that it was wired for 230VAC 50/60 Hz and as you know the only available outlets left in the kitchen are 120 VAC. Fortunately, I found an electrician who was able to squeeze us in on a time and a half emergency basis to get a new outlet installed. It did require a lot more wallboard cutting than I anticipated but I also found a wallboard guy for a pretty reasonable price. Let me know when you get your bill on these so I confirm there’re not ripping you off.

By the way, Mr. Belanger’s glue gun arrived as well and I have to tell you it is quite a piece of work. Who knew a glue gun could hold so much glue? More on that in a minute.

With the new outlet installed I got right to work trying it out on the first three Sippy Cups. Everything seemed to be going great so I used the 10 minute sanitizing time to put together the new glue gun.

After a few minutes the house started filling with a bad odor of something melting. It was only then that I found out that the sanitizing temperature of the Tuttnauer reaches 273 degrees and the plastic they use for a Sippy Cup has a melting point of only 175 degrees. Who the he!! Knew these things got so hot. I am very disappointed that Mr. Belanger being an engineer and all did not advise me of this when I called him with my original plan. When I called him back today to tell him about the poor results he replied, “Yeah, I didn’t think of that.”

Well long story short, the Sippy Cups became Sippy Cup Goo and really got into the workings of the autoclave. Unfortunately, while I was unsuccessfully trying to scrape the Sippy Cup remains from the autoclave, DD3 found the unattended glue gun in the living room.

It’s kind of funny how much the glue gun resembles those blasters used by the storm troopers in Star Wars. Well you know DD3’s fondness of Star Wars sooo…….. The curtains are definitely shot, I think we can patch the carpet but I am not too certain about the couch.

I tried to use some solvents to get up the glue but all that did was smear it around and fill the house with some pretty biting fumes. To get the kids out of the fumes I decided we should check into the Four Seasons for the night. We did get there just after midnight and since this technically would be your day with the kids, I charged the room to your card. Have you ever seen the prices of the stuff they keep in those mini-bar refrigerators?

I am thinking of just going back to the rinse, wash and disassemble advise regarding the care of the Sippy Cups. That would probably work okay.

I will keep you informed on the progress.

Hugs and Nooggies

Sdguy038

PS: I called my attorney today to be sure he got the autoclave added to your list of marital property.
afk;fjepur83ajdlkvm'a534685468dsafj;lkj

Sorry for the scrabble above....I had to clean my keyboard off after I spit my tea all over it while reading chrisner's post.

Laughter is the best medicine. Thank you, dr. chrisner. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
OMG, Chrisner, THANK YOU for the email#2. AWESOME.

LMAO
laughing hysterically now...chrisner...you are the man!!!!!
Great stuff, Chrisner!
Chrisner

You are the man.... you should write for a card company.

You know the type Hallmark wouldn't advertise.

Still
Posted By: sdguy038 On Sippy Cup Care - 03/29/07 05:10 AM
I regret to inform you all that upon emptying the dishwasher today (from having been run a couple of days ago), one of the "clean" sippy cups I removed still had the plastic insert attached. Clearly I am in need of the enlightenmight that the Goddess (of Sippy Cups) Herself provided me. I am aghast at this turn of events, particularly since I had just about convinced myself that I wasn't responsible for the Sippy Cup In Question that so unfortunately was transferred to The Goddess.

My mother, you see, has taken to following my thread and informed me today how much she enjoyed all the discussion on sippy cups. She also said that she (having spent some time with me recently) was probably the one who had washed the sippy cup without removing the plastic insert (she being somewhat less familiar with Sippy Cup technology, given that they weren't available when I was a child). She went on to say that she probably would have done it on purpose had she known how much fun the resulting discussion was going to be.

Thus, I thought I had found a scapegoat for the source of the Negligent Sippy Cup Cleansing. After today's discovery, however, it is apparent that I am every bit as negligent with respect to Sippy Cup Hygiene. Maybe we are both guilty. Perhaps the Sippy Cup gene just doesn't run in our family.

Alas, I feel I must immediately inform our court-appointed mediator and have our agreement amended to include specific language on the use, care, and (most importantly) cleaning of Sippy Cups. I have also sent a personal message to Richard Belanger, notifying him of my gross parental inadequacy.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 03/29/07 03:53 PM
sdguy038 (HI, MOM!),

I hope you are not neglecting the dresser drawers while you are so focused on Sippy Cup Hygiene! You've got to be able to multi-task.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My mother repeatedly told me that there was no little man in the dishwasher scrubbing each dish so they had to be "washed" before being put in the dishwasher. (I always thought that defeated the purpose of a dishwasher.)

Anyway, maybe you need to let the little man I believe is in every dishwasher know that he missed a few spots? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> He can be your scapegoat.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 03/29/07 03:58 PM
hmmm...in thinking about that a little further, I wonder why we believe it is a little MAN. In trying to actually visualize that, I just can't see a MAN running around the dishwasher scrubbing each and every dish til it gleams.

While I am sure there ARE men that do dishes, I've never actually seen one. (closeup, anyway).

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> No offense intended to all the men that I am sure DO dishes but I have just not had the opportunity to see them doing so.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 03/29/07 03:59 PM
It's hard to find a good dishwasher gnome these days...
Posted By: chrisner Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 03/29/07 04:15 PM
From: The Law Offices of Dewey, Cheatum and Howe

To: Sdguy038 in care of Marriage Builders

Dear Sir,

A random internet search has found this site as containing significant reference to our client’s product “Sippy Cups”. As legal representatives of ACME Sippy Cup Industries we are requesting that you immediately cease in your forum conversations regarding the possibility of bacterial disease outbreak and their unsubstantiated connection to our client’s product.

Furthermore after our review of your posts concerning your inability to properly care for and maintain the product as manufactured by our client we are requesting that until which time you have completed a course on “The Use, Care, and Maintenance of Sippy Cups” as taught by a certified “Sippy Cup” instructor, (eight week courses available at select WalMart stores), that you cease all use of our clients product. We would ask that you convey this request to your mother as well.

Non compliance with our request will require further attention from our firm.

Best regards,

Huey Dewey
Posted By: InHisCare Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 03/29/07 06:11 PM
Ok, I think we just need to have chrisner on call at all times to remind us how great life is!!!!

Laughter is great medicine and I for one have been rolling!!!!!

sdg,

Please don't be too hard on yourself. I am sure that now that you know the importance of this very special parenting issue (because I am sure that as a man you did not have any previous knowledge of the rules governing sippy cups), that you can be trusted to comply with the rules in the future...however we will be watching...

IHC
President
SCMU

(sippy cup moms united)
Posted By: fightingback Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 03/29/07 06:24 PM
chrisner.....sdg........
sippy cups..........ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gosh I needed that.. thanks guys!!!!!!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 03/30/07 12:14 AM
To follow up on my post on SL's thread, I have been considering sending an email like this to the Sippy Cup Goddess:

"At the mediation session the other day, we spoke briefly about what kind of contact between OM and our children is appropriate. To be clear, I believe that it is inappropriate for you to bring OM around our children. You may think that it is okay so long as they don’t see anything “inappropriate,” but our kids are not stupid. They know why OM is there.

You are married, and OM is married, and what you are doing is wrong. Even if only one of you were married, you are still commiting adultery, and it is wrong. You have said that what's best for the children is your concern now (and I believe that), but can you really say that what you're doing is what's best for the children, or maybe is it just what feels best for you?

Have you thought about what you are teaching our children through your actions? What kind of example you are setting?

Have you looked up the statistics on relationships born from adultery? Most studies put the long-term success rates of such relationships at <3%. Further, statistically, most men never actually leave their wives (and families). Those who do leave and go on to other relationships do so with a woman other than the one that they cheated with.

I know that you believe that your relationship with OM is different. But what if it isn’t? What if the whole thing falls apart? What kind of trauma will you be putting the kids through? The research is clear on how detrimental it is to expose children to adultery partners.

Please consider this when you decide how much time our children should be around OM and what would constitute inappropriate contact (e.g., overnights by him, taking them to his apartment, him moving in with you)."

My current thinking is that a dark Plan B would be more effective than sending something like this, but I welcome opinions.
Posted By: chrisner Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 03/30/07 01:38 AM
I am clearly not an expert but if you send it set clear boundaries without any lecture. She will not understand, misinterpret or simply get pissed off at lectures or statistics. If you do this tell her what a strong dad needs to say to protect his kids. But I am with you.

Direct. Short. Stern. Honest. Manly.

For the kids.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 03/30/07 01:52 AM
I wouldn't bother mentioning stat's on the length of affair R's or what outcomes they tend to have. I do agree with stating the damage that has been and will be inflicted on the kids by 'visits's with the OM included while STILL married to you.
Posted By: believer Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 03/30/07 02:41 AM
The problem is that the affairees always think that their case is special, and different.

Stay dark. That is your best bet.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 03/30/07 05:28 AM
This came in from Richard Belanger while I was working on the other email:

Dear SDGuy,

Given the challenges you have been facing, I wanted to make you aware of the following. I sincerely hope you find this information useful.

Yours,

Rich


The Caltech Institute of High-Density Polyethylene Infant and Toddler Nutrition Technology

is proud to announce the

24th Symposium on Use and Maintenance of Childrens' Food Technology

April 29 - May 4, 2007
Il Ciocco
Lucca (Barga), Italy

Chairs:
Ylva Engstrom & Yechiel Shai

Vice Chairs:
Richard L. Gallo & Richard Belanger


Session topics to include:

  • Bottles -- To Microwave or Not to Microwave

    Is That Old Nipple Still Any Good?

    Thermochromic Spoons and Forks -- Do They Really Work?

    Cleaning Tips for Sport Bottles, Straw Cups, and Sippy Cups

    How to Use High-Performance Glue Guns to Amaze Your Friends


Application Deadline: Applications for this meeting must be submitted by April 8, 2007.

Please apply early, as some conferences become oversubscribed (full) before this deadline.


See You There!
Posted By: chrisner Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 03/30/07 02:17 PM
Hey that’s the same time and place as the Antimicrobial Peptides Conference I was thinking of going to.

Definitely need to hit that Nipple Session. I have thought a lot about replacing the old used ones around here.

Maybe we can put together a Plan B junket to Italy. Skip the boring sessions and see the sights and drink some vino.
Posted By: InHisCare Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 03/30/07 06:37 PM
you two are too much...


I'm hooked on the sippy cup saga!!!!!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 03/30/07 07:00 PM
What a fortuitous coincidence! I thought there might be a connection between the conferences, but who knew that a fellow Killer Bee had an interest in the anti-microbial peptides Gordon Conference? What are the chances?

I think we can accomplish what we need to in Montana in time to make the conferences in Italy. Agree on skipping boring sessions. Will we need to file trip reports here at MB, do you suppose? I guess we can always make stuff up for the sessions we don't attend.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 03/30/07 07:18 PM
I would recommend filing trip reports here at MB. Our comrades in arms might be in need of the white-hatted saviors in the Batmobile and you could help them out on your way by.

You might want to consider charging for your services (after me, of course), fuel for the Batmobile may get expensive. Although I'm sure there is a betrayed spouse or two with Exxon that could get you a good deal.


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: chrisner Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/02/07 06:33 PM
Hey SDguy,

Just checking in to see how things are going on the Left Coast. Let us know. You know us Plan B people don't have as much to do as the busy little A Team.

I hope all is good.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/02/07 08:52 PM
*crickets chirping*

Pretty quiet. Uneventful baseball game. Uneventful kid swap yesterday. Only got mildly triggered when one of her former co-workers (who didn't know, it turns out) called looking for a pediatrician recommendation. I told him. He still works with OM.

I guess this was a successful weekend, but I'm aware of something being missing. Typically I'm content being alone, and sometimes I relish it. Other times I miss the kids (Friday night, especially) or someone to talk to and share things with (as discussed on the Killer Bee thread) and do things for.

I think the response for this is to "keep myself busy" by taking a class or joining a support group or hang out with single friends. My problem is that I don't really want to do those things. I don't make friends easily, and the ones that I have are all married. I don't know--I have a lot of support, and I guess I should take more advantage of it. I'm jealous of Chrisner having his daughter to hang out with. Will she come with you to Montana? If so, can I hang out with her some (if I promise not to check her out)?
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/03/07 01:01 AM
SD,

You are doing great. And I know what you mean about most of your friends being married. All of my BF's (best friends not boyfriends) are married. And they only want to do so much without thier spouse on the weekend.

I do have DD16 to hang out with but she hangs out alot with her boyfriend. And they are not crazy about Still hanging around.

When she's gone and friends have other plans is when I seem to miss adult company.

It's suppose to get better right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Still
Posted By: believer Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/03/07 01:10 AM
Did you ever go to a divorce support group? That might be good. There will be lots of ladies sympathizing with you.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/03/07 01:24 AM
Haven't made it to a support group yet. What, with all the Sippy Cup Maintenance to get accomplished around the house, there just hasn't been time. I'm happy to report that all Sippy Cup components are well-cleansed and free of bacterial contamination. At least, they were. Maybe I should go check them again.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion. I'll look around for one. What had been recommended to me was a class, and it seems to have ended.
Posted By: believer Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/03/07 01:28 AM
A support group would be GREAT for you. It will be mainly women, but they will baby you. I was in a grief support group that had only one man, and I'll tell you, he brought out our maternal instincts.

Plus, I think you would be a great asset.
Posted By: sdguy038 Sippy Cups / Plan B - 04/03/07 01:45 AM
Okay, you talked me into it. I'll find one.
Posted By: believer Re: Sippy Cups / Plan B - 04/03/07 03:13 AM
I really think it will help you. Your plate is very full now, and real life support will be good.
Posted By: fightingback Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/03/07 12:01 PM
Quote
My problem is that I don't really want to do those things.


sdg........ditto......I feel like those things are just time fillers....I still feel deflated at the end of the day....but I guess no matter what we do, we are bound to feel lonely without the one person we want to be with. I am trying to accept that.....true happiness without WS will take some time....its like a journey to get there, a drive through a long and boring desert....:(
Posted By: chrisner Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/03/07 02:40 PM
Hey SDguy,

I fully understand your comment about not really feeling like doing things. It feels forced and unsatisfying. I have very few friends right now and none I would consider close. Coaching basketball and having DD19 down on the weekends have been saving my life. But everyday feels a little better. Spring is setting in now and the gardens are going to need work. I am making plans for home projects to start as soon as the D is final.

It is a strange spot to be in. Not married, not single. The waywards have cast aside their morals concerning their marriage vows and live single with only some logistical issues troubling them. We continue to stand by our vows as honorable people should and live in limbo. But I would never change places with them. Their Hindenburg is coming. We will leave Plan B smarter, stronger, wiser, more compassionate and still have our dignity.

The limbo will end. Our limbo is sort of like that moment of pause when the last horse is loaded into the starting gate at Belmont and all goes still. But look what happens when the gates fly open.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/03/07 02:51 PM
I tried to get a post in last night, sdguy, but there was a lot of commotion about sippy cups in the house and that was first priority.

I don't like to find 'new' hobbies either. I enjoy the old ones just fine, thanks. With spring springing, I can get outside in the gardens and do all sorts of things. I also live in an older home, so I have a lot of updates that I can afford to do, as well as finish work on updates that were started when H was home.

Most of my friends are 'paired up' too. I ache sometimes when I'm around them, and they hug and kiss and show general devotion and care for one another. I still have those moments where I think, "NO WAY THIS IS MY LIFE!". Then I shake the cobwebs loose and carry on. Sometimes I still have tiny moments of shock where I can't believe MY H has done this. It's weird. I look forward to not feeling this strangeness, this feeling of hovering just above the ground waiting to touch down.
Posted By: chrisner Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/03/07 03:15 PM
SL, it is so strange to still get that moment now and then when you just shut down in disbelief and think, “Is this really happening?” How long will that crap last?

SDguy, you nailed one on the head in your post the other day by saying how much you miss doing something for someone else. I had not really thought about that but it is so true. I want to make someone a cup of tea, I want to bring someone a comforter and start the fire when the night chill settles into the house, I want to buy the flowers at the store.

DD19 and I were walking through some shops a couple weekends ago and I kept seeing things and thinking, “Wow, W would really like this.” And there was always a little sadness when I would think I will never shop for another present for her in her life. Oh well, she is lost at sea and presumed dead.

Where’s the fast forward button when you need it.
Posted By: believer Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/03/07 03:29 PM
I think it is better to just tell yourself they are never coming back and get on with life. Then when they do, it will be a bonus.

I spent about the first YEAR not believing this was happening to me. Talk about denial. And what a huge waste of my precious life.

Get busy, and at first you may have to force yourself, but go do things. You will find that you will start enjoying them.
Posted By: fightingback Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/03/07 03:34 PM
Quote
SDguy, you nailed one on the head in your post the other day by saying how much you miss doing something for someone else. I had not really thought about that but it is so true. I want to make someone a cup of tea, I want to bring someone a comforter and start the fire when the night chill settles into the house, I want to buy the flowers at the store


hey guys......I'll send you my address K?, and I'll take all the well wishes too!!!!!! I miss caring for someone too! never really cared about getting flowers....more like the emotional show of affection I miss.....like the fire kindling and a warm hug....just a hand hold when they know you are feeling down..........sheesh...now i've got to tearing.
bleeetch!!! shake it off!!!!!!!! k, now I 'm better:)

it gets to me that WS's are getting that kind of stuff...cared for and such....
I am going to have a hissy fit like my 3 yr old.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAA....ITS NOT FAIR.........WAAAAAAAAAAAAA
they get everything......we get nothing!!!!!!!

whew...ok, I feel better...yup..thanks guys:) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: chrisner Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/03/07 03:55 PM
FB,

I know just the cure, a Sippy Cup of bourbon (kills any lingering bacteria on the valve) and Peter Frampton’s live version of “Do You Feel Like I Do” on loud.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/03/07 05:39 PM
I still can't get over the commonality of what we're going through. I had it again yesterday--the "Is this really happening? It's so surreal. I want to wake up." moment, and it sounds like I'm not the only one.

I have a lot to give and no one to give it to. My roses are about to explode with blooms (brought the first one in to my office today), and I already felt an urge to cut some for my W (which reminded me of doing it last summer, when she didn't appreciate or even really want them because she was still emotionally attached to OM...sigh). So I'm going to have all these roses and a desire to give them to someone. I can bring them to people at work or neighbors, but my desire to give them away is about my own emotional needs, and giving them to the people at work isn't the same.

Yesterday I exchanged a brief email with WW about changing the kid schedule and managed to get mildly triggered. I almost posted the exchange but then realized I was overanalyzing again, and why am I letting her do this to me. So what if it is poisonous? So easy to lose focus.

I know the limbo will end. I actually think I could flip the "Acceptance--I am Done now" switch in my head, but it's not what I want. I'm still married, and I want my family back, so I choose to stay in the limbo. Maybe that's an easier way to deal with it. Recognize that I am choosing limbo over alternatives. Make the limbo work for me.

I have my own home projects and things to keep me busy. It's the occasional loneliness and longing to connect with someone that make it difficult, but I don't see any way around that. Except maybe trolling for smokin' hot Italian babes at the Sippy Cup Symposium (as if I'd know what to do with one).
Posted By: fightingback Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/03/07 06:30 PM
Quote
Make the limbo work for me.

I like that idea...LIMBO....LIMBO....LIMBO(chanting)

you know you have to be pretty flexible to LIMBO....cha cha cha...bend over backwards...right....that incomprehensible position that one can't do past the age of 21?? and the bar goes lower......and lower........then your flat on your back

Quote
a Sippy Cup of bourbon


hmmmmm.....maybe Sippy Cup 'O' toasted almond.....
or Sippy Cup 'O' parrot bay rum........ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

yummy...but only whilst singing my fav song "I gotta pee"
and hugging my teddy with only one eye and stuffing hanging out.

seriously there have got to be some PRO's to LIMBO LAND.....anyone???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/03/07 06:41 PM
Yup, this dang limbo land is our CHOICE. It's a small comfort to know that you still have a choice, isn't it.
Posted By: fightingback Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/03/07 07:01 PM
OK...I thought of some pro's of LIMBOLAND

no yucky blind dates <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

no alkward first sexual encounters <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

ok, people help me out...this is hard <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: InHisCare Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/03/07 11:25 PM
i think if we look at it like that, we can make it a little further down the road...we chose this, WE are in control...We can choose when it ends...no one else is in control!

WOO HOO!!!

IHC
Posted By: fightingback Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/03/07 11:34 PM
oh yes, control....all mine now.......

I am driving that train
I am paying those bills
I am callin' the shots for MY life
I will say when I am done
I will say IF I will continue
I will be happy...someday:)

OH, and most importantly, I will decide the care and cleaning regemin for Said Sippy Cups!!!!!!!
and the waywards better like it, or lump it....
Posted By: InHisCare Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/04/07 01:27 AM
Hey sdg,

You know what would really tick the WW off? How about teaching your DD3 to drink from a big girl cup...thus eliminating the potential health hazards of sippy cups.

OOH the devious plan to undermine her authority over sippy cups begins....
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/04/07 01:43 AM
OMG! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> You wouldn't!!!! How dare you change things up and move to 'regular' cups. You truly are a cad if you do that!

Oh, lordy, then your WW would have to find something else to scrutinize. Maybe next, it will be condition and care of socks. Maybe you should just stick to sippy cups for now, no sense in beginning an UPRISING!
Posted By: chrisner Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/04/07 02:23 AM
Sdguy,

I am not sure you noticed, but a bunch of fired up women have taken over your thread. Personally this would be a dream come true but I thought you should know.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/04/07 04:20 AM
Hey, keep it down. I'm trying to watch.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/04/07 05:00 AM
You know, part of the absurdity of the whole Sippy Cup thing is that DD3 knows perfectly well how to drink from a glass. I wasn't even bothering with Sippy Cups anymore. They are just an added hassle to me.

And speaking of the Bee sistahs--I'm thinking about abandoning the Montana idea and instead trying to get some of these fired up women to come to southern California and deal with my WW.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/04/07 12:04 PM
I'm there! Only under one condition. We have to do the Hitchcock "Strangers on a Train" thing, and you guys have to come to Maryland and straighten out my WH, 'kay? Y'know, I'll do yours if you do mine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/04/07 03:38 PM
Quote
I'm thinking about abandoning the Montana idea


WHAT!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Bring the WW up here and the Bee Sistah's. The laws are probably different and we can get away with more. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

We'll say she stole a horse......
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/04/07 03:52 PM
I have to meet with my lawyer this morning to get ready for our court session to settle custody (already agreed), child and spousal support, and legal fees. And I'm all triggered about it.

I make about twice as much as WW, and I don't have any problem with paying child support. My preference would be to do it in a way where I can be sure that my money doesn't go to support OM in any way, but I can think of ways to make that happen.

But I don't want to pay spousal support. This is all her doing--she's the only one who wants it. When I asked her about it after the mediation session, it was like she hadn't actually thought about it. I think she's just walking forward in a daze (Must divorce . . . must be with OM . . . must divorce), not really considering any of what she's doing. If that's the case, she will probably defer to what her lawyer tells her, and her lawyer is likely to go for whatever they can get (and since I make more than she does, they will get it).

So I'm wondering whether I should try to have a conversation with her and tell her in a non-confrontational, non-angry way that I don't think I should have to pay spousal support. I think it could work. I think she has enough guilt feelings that she might agree to whatever I propose. But I have so much other stuff running around in my head (all of the conversation stuff) that I'm afraid it could turn into one of those conversations where I try to convince her of stuff, and we know how those work out.

Any thoughts?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/04/07 04:07 PM
Quote
Quote
I'm thinking about abandoning the Montana idea


WHAT!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Well, it was just that you guys were sounding so strong that maybe you didn't need us to come. But hey, I'm there. The Italian babes can wait. I'm married.
Posted By: chrisner Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/04/07 04:11 PM
Wow, that collective sigh of relief that just carried over the continent seemed to come from Italy.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/04/07 04:26 PM
Quote
Well, it was just that you guys were sounding so strong that maybe you didn't need us to come. But hey, I'm there. The Italian babes can wait. I'm married.


Phew! I thought I've been leaving the light on for nothing!
Just cause your strong doesn't mean you can't be stronger!

Yup, the Italian babes better just wait. You've got time, they'll still be there.

I don't know what to tell you about the spousal support, whether you should talk to her or not. It just doesn't seem right that you should have to pay her anything in support. Kids yes, her no. It was her choice to leave...

I feel for you today...being forced to have it back at the surface while talking to the attorney in prep for court. But you're stronger, and we're with you all the way. I could take a little Southern Cal right now....especially if it was a "business" trip. As in "taking care of business".
Posted By: chrisner Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/04/07 04:59 PM
I don't think I favor talking to her at all. Consult your A. But you know your situation and your WW best. But please think long and hard before talking to her.

My thoughts on the right settlement would be letting Wayzilla keep whatever clothes she can put on at one time, a trash bag with her Gollum stained panties and a STD checkup coupon at a lower downtown clinic.

Fair is fair.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/04/07 07:01 PM
My lawyer ran some numbers, and the spousal support number is obscene. It's more than the CS number. If that's what they go forward with, I will be hosed. The court doesn't care that she's the only one that wants the divorce, they will put the data into the formula and turn the crank and I will have to pay. I believe that if I fight, I will lose. Unfortunately, there's a difference between what seems like "the right settlement" to those who understand the situation and what the court thinks. My lawyer said that not talking with WW right now is working against me (at least for this).

My take is that WW is moving along in the Fog, so she is likely to do what her lawyer and OM tell her to do, which will be get whatever they can from me. I think that I have a much better chance of getting her to agree to something more reasonable if I actually talk about it with her. I'm going to set something up with Jennifer to talk it over first.

And yes, it sucks having all this stuff churned up. Playing and replaying all the conversations in my head--trying to explain my perspective (that she went for the OM and never looked back; no real attempt at reconciliation--the last time I saw W she as much as admitted this; that it's a mistake; that we can be in love again; that it is hurting the kids, etc.). I think that I could do this calmly and without LB'ing, but would it actually accomplish anything? Gotta talk to Jennifer.
Posted By: chrisner Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/04/07 07:07 PM
Weigh the opinions and advise and then go with your gut feeling. It has probably been right everytime. You will know what to do.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/04/07 07:09 PM
Talking to Jennifer----perfect plan. Let us know what you come up with. While a good marriage is the goal, you still have to protect yourself and your children from wayward bullchit.

Wish I could help more.
Posted By: FaithfulWifeCJ Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/04/07 07:35 PM
sdguy,

First, I realize that formulas are formulas. I also realize that you have been married for 14 years and thus you do "qualify" for spousal support based on years together. However, the idea of spousal support is supposed to be that one spouse worked a waitress job before the kids in order to put the other spouse through medical or law school...and then became a SAHM once the kids came...and now has no training or work experience to be able to support themself financially. Spousal support is the idea that the SAH spouse had reason to believe that they would have the financial resources of the lawyer or doctor spouse as the "family's" income. Sooo...the purpose of spousal support is supposed to be financial assistance for a few years until the SAH spouse can be trained or finish their own degree (whatever) in order to support themself.

Is your WW able to have a full-time job which pays a reasonable amount? And by "reasonable" I mean, more than double minimum wage. Does she have a degree of her own? Does she have work experience from over the years? If so, you might be able to greatly reduce your spousal support by arguing that she has the ability to support herself!!

I will be bold and tell you my personal numbers. My exH and I were married 15 years--2 kids. We owned a business together wherein he made $7k/mo and I made $3k/mo. He has an MBA, which I helped pay for and put him through--I have an associates in accounting. After separating, he had the ability to find a job earning $6k/mo without much hassle, and I had the ability to find a job earning #2.5k/mo with my experience and degree.

Technically, I think I would have qualified for spousal support using all the "formulas", but in my instance I chose to not ask for it, and if I had, I would have gotten a small amount for about 2-3 years (long enough to finish my degree in Accounting). Soooo...if you can prove that your WW has a degree in XXXXXX, and has been working full-time as a YYYYYY earning $Xk/mo for the last so many years--she has the ability to support herself and that will greatly diminish her spousal support!

Finally, if she DID work as a waitress to put you through law school and then became a SAHM--and if she has no training or experience--one negotiating tool you might consider is that in lieu of spousal support, you are willing to pay her college tuition--directly to the college of course--until she earns her degree and is able to support herself -or- for four years, whichever comes first (something like that). This way, your money does not go to supporting OM and it does directly benefit WW and your kids because she has the ability to provide for them better.

Just some brainstorm ideas to consider!!!



~~CJ
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/04/07 11:10 PM
Thanks, CJ. What you describe is right on. My WW is an IT professional and was making $95k before she got fired from her previous job. She's not making that much now, but she can clearly support herself. With no support, she might have difficulty because San Diego isn't cheap, and she rented a 3-bedroom townhouse in an expensive neighborhood, but I am prepared to pay a reasonable (even more than the specified) amount of child support.

I *think* WW won't ask for much in the way of spousal support, but based on what my lawyer said, she can, and if she does, they will put in the numbers and it will spit out something I really don't like. WW seems to be moving forward with little thought to what she's doing, and most of the time she isn't malicious towards me (only when the mirror has been held up). I don't want to take the chance that she will blindly listen to what either her lawyer or the OM tells her to do if I can head it off.

I'm thinking I will put together a proposal wherein I pay for daycare expenses, make regular contributions to a college fund, and continue to pay into our joint checking account, from which we can pay for kid-related expenses (classes, clothing, medical, etc.). I plan to make the total more than what the formula specifies for child support but less than the what it says for the total of child support and spousal support. I think she will agree to it, and maybe I can do it by email, but I think my best chance is with a sit-down conversation. I believe I can do it. Like I said before, I'm going to talk it over with Jennifer.

It's pretty ludicrous to me that she has the affair, she walks out on the marriage, she files for divorce against my wishes, and she can still get this much of my salary when she makes so much money herself.
Posted By: InHisCare Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/05/07 12:56 AM
When I went to court (sans atty's mind you) WH said he didn't want to pay, I said I wanted it and they gave it to me...but it wasn't much after the CS amount (and I am on the other side of the coin-I did not choose to walk away).

If I had chosen to walk away, I wouldn't ask for a dime in spousal...but that is just me!

It stinks that the one who doesn't even want a DV gets the short end of the stick. I think it sometimes depends on the actual judge you end up with too and their take on adultery. My judge was not pleased with my WH...I got everything I asked for.

Do what jennifer recommends though...the bigger goal is the M not money, so do what is best in the long run according to the professional!

UGH!!!!!

Maybe if all the women on this thread hurt the WW and the men hurt the WH we could somehow even the scales...if nothing else it would at least be a little fun!!!!

IHC
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/05/07 01:48 AM
Talking to Jennifer sounds good. I may be investing another chunk of change just to get her take on things. I like your idea of submitting a proposal for the benefit of the children. You are pretty savvy about these things.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/05/07 03:16 PM
Good for you, sdguy. It's great of you to want to set things up so your kids are so well taken care of. Although it will be to your WW benefit, the kids benefit the most. It's good of you to see that.

I'd like to talk to Jennifer again myself but just can't spare the cash right now.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/05/07 04:31 PM
One thing I want to prevent is writing a check to WW each month only to have her turn around and use that money to support OM somehow. It's only symbolic, I know, because me providing money frees up her money to do with what she wants, but still.

I wish I knew how far gone she was and how much she's being manipulated by OM. No way to know, I guess.
Posted By: FaithfulWifeCJ Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/05/07 05:28 PM
Here's another idea--

My exH did pay CS (we had two kids) and I did not ask him for spousal support (although by the formulas I could have). I figured I was able-bodied and had the ability to support myself, and this way I could get on with my life even if it was at a lower lifestyle.

Anyway, exH and I *did* agree to have him pay for medical insurance for the kids--and all medical co-pays--and for orthodontics (the statements went straight to him--I didn't pay a cent), and for the kids extra curricular activities such as baseball (the sign up fee, the uniforms, and all the equipment). That way, he was assured that "his money" was going to the kids and not to me. One kid did football and karate--the other one did baseball and drama.

HOWEVER, we did not continue our joint account. I would highly suggest that you negotiate to close that account ASAP, because if it is JOINT and she runs up a bunch of bad checks, you will be equally libel. Now, you may think, "She's not the bad check writing kinda gal" but you also thought she wasn't the type to have an affair and leave, so that is proven inaccurate.

What we did is close the "joint" account, each one of us opened a personal account, and then he had an account on which he was the adult and it had the kids' names on it as minors. They couldn't sign (they were too little) but it was an account ON THEIR BEHALF--their money. So he paid for the insurance, orthodontist, football, karate, baseball and drama out of the "kids" account...which he had control of. I suggest possibly something like this for you. Close the "joint" account between you and WW, and create an account specifically for the kids. If she wants to, there is no reason why you couldn't make auto-deposits to that account, but let her be in charge of the funds. Another option is for YOU to be in charge of the funds and have those things like daycare, doctor, all the "kid" expenses directly billed to you so that she's not even libel if you don't pay! Either she can control the cash but then she's responsible--or you can control the cash and YOU are responsible! Whichever she likes. This will also give you the advantage of appearing to give her "what she wants" and negotiating with her in good will.


~~CJ
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/06/07 03:28 AM
Tuh RIGG ered.

Had a session with Jennifer, which went well. Good support and coaching. Some insights. So I'm feeling good.

I'm picking up the kids at day care, and DD3 says "OM does something funny with eggs." DS7 clarifies what DD3 is talking about. I seethe.

I manage to restrain from saying "Gee, I wonder why OM wasn't making hash browns at his house for his little girls."

Getting over it. Will post more about Jennifer later.
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/06/07 12:20 PM
(((SD))),

Just thought I would send hugs your way.

Those are triggers that can't be stopped... truley out of the mouths of babes.

Still
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/06/07 02:12 PM
Please let us know what Jennifer had to say when you have the time. I'm always interested in her insight.

Sorry about that HUGE trigger. I feel like I live in a world of mouse traps that I try to avoid all day long. The triggers are pretty strong right now, especially hearing my son's questions almost daily and his want to be with his dad. He was talking to me about packing his things to go see his daddy, and I had to tell him that this was not the weekend that his spends with his daddy. He was so unhappy about that.
Posted By: FaithfulWifeCJ Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/06/07 06:36 PM
RRRRRRRRR!!

I'll hold him down, and we can turn the Killer B's lose on him!! He doesn't stand a chance!! Lemme at him!!!

He won't be NEAR your DD or DS FOR A WHILE.

rrrrrrrrrrr!!!
Posted By: fightingback Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/06/07 06:48 PM
I'm picking up the kids at day care, and DD3 says "OM does something funny with eggs." DS7 clarifies what DD3 is talking about. I seethe.


((((sdg)))))
I am wretching for you.......I hate, hate, hate that the kids end up a party to the maddness.

I even wanted to say to WS "I bet DS8 wouldn't LOVE OP's dog so much if he knew that OP was the one keeping you from coming home" but alas....plan B....replace the muzzle please.

I feel for you..........
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/06/07 07:03 PM
Thanks, guys. I'm better today. Our day-care provider took Good Friday off, so I'm spending the day with DD3 and having a good time. She's playing Dinosaur Adventure on the computer right now. Later, we'll pick up DS from school and camp out in the back yard again tonight.

I will post the Jennifer stuff, but I need some time to put it together. It wasn't anything earth-shattering, though.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/06/07 07:20 PM
Hey sdguy, If you have some time, could you post to Stillhurting how you were told by Jennifer to run your Plan B without an intermediary? She's having some problems with contact, in regards to receiving emails from WH and separating their finances.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/06/07 07:32 PM
Yeah...I just suggested it would be great if she could get an intermediary. Jennifer was happy when I told her I had one now. But I'll try to check in with more later.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/06/07 07:53 PM
oops, just saw your post (before I posted, der-dee-der), thanks
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/09/07 12:57 AM
I'm taking it easy after four days with the kids. They are great kids, and I love them like crazy, but they can be a handful. DD3 appears to be reacting to the turmoil by clinging (fear of being abandoned)--she doesn't want me out of her sight for more than a couple of minutes. I wish I had a nickel for every time she's said "daddy." DS7 is acutely aware of attention and is seriously competitive with DD3 right now. Also, he appears to be taking out his anger over the situation on the only safe target, DD3. I have a hard time not reacting when he torments DD3, which makes everyone unhappy. It's only a matter of time before DD3 begins using this against DS7 (more than she already is). Sigh. A lot of this is normal child development, I think, but I know the added layer of stress contributes.

DD3 mentioned OM a couple of more times over the past two days. I respond with "I don't want to talk about OM." DD3: "Why?" SDG: "Well, I don't like OM very much." DD3: "Why?" SDG thinks but does not say: "Because he's a very bad man." Argh.

Up and down over the weekend. Feeling good about me and my future at one moment (the epiphany SL talked about on her thread) and then angry and frustrated over the absurdity of this situation the next. More good than bad, though, which is a positive thing, I think.

The bad moments (like when DD3 talks about OM) gave me pause about offering up a face-to-face conversation with WW about support agreements, but I think I will anyway. I'm going to email WW with something like this:

"Are you interested in trying to work out our own support agreement? I have a proposal that I can email to you, or, in this case, we can meet and discuss it if you prefer. What do you think?"

Opinions welcome.

I have to listen to my session with Jennifer again before posting about it, and I haven't been able to do that yet. I find myself needing a break from all of this marriage stuff--I think that is probably a good thing?
Posted By: InHisCare Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/10/07 12:43 AM
sdg,

ya know...even when you are storng, hearing about OP is very difficult. I don't really want WH back now and hearing about OW and OW's D6 made me irritable this weekend.

None of us could probably say that hearing "good news" about the person we despise the most would bring us feelings of joy.

PEACE...that's what I'm looking for...someday we will be there!

Sorry you have had so many triggers lately...it is easier when legal proceedings don't force contact.


Hope you are having a much better day now...
IHC
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/10/07 12:53 AM
sdguy, it's a lot of work taking great care of your children and then dealing with their normal emotional chaos that is now loaded with inner turmoil. I'd say you are doing very well by them. To hear about OM is surely not good for you, and when coming from the mouth of a 3 year old girl, whom you want to protect from this evilness, stupidity. You need a break. Have some Vino and relax, guy!

I don't know about the support agreement. Maybe you should just draw up what you think would be good, send that info and extend the conversation olive branch. I dunno.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/10/07 12:59 AM
Yesterday and today were pretty good. I've maintained an appetite for the past couple of days, which is a pretty good barometer of my mental state. Doing what I want to do. At peace with whatever happens. I know who I am and what I'm doing. I know who WW is and where she's headed. I know what OM is and what he isn't.

Somewhat anxious over upcoming court stuff. I sent the email to WW today as listed above. Also told my lawyer what I intend to offer.

We'll see.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/10/07 01:25 AM
I respect you so greatly, for being so proactive and taking such good care of your children. I know you would prefer not to have to do these things, and I'm sure, when/if the time comes for D hearings for me, I'm going to be hanging on by a thread some days.

Good luck with your proposal. Fingers, toes and eyes crossed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: fightingback Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/10/07 02:47 AM
Quote
Good luck with your proposal. Fingers, toes and eyes crossed!


DITTO

I'll be sending you good vibes!!!!!!!!!

let us know how it goes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/10/07 10:45 PM
Last night I got this from WW in response to my inquiry about reaching our own agreement:

"Sure. The more we can work out is probably better. Email me what you are proposing and then we may need to meet to discuss it."

Which triggered me. There was no way it wouldn't, I think. Nothing poisonous in this, but it makes me anxious anyway.

So I just sent the proposal:

"How about this:

I pay day care costs (~$xx / month)

I open college funds for the kids and contribute $xx / month

I deposit $xx per month into the joint checking account. This money to be used to pay for team sports, classes, swim lessons, medical expenses, etc. Depending upon the balance, you can use it to reimburse yourself for clothes, toys, etc.

Decision on legal fees to be deferred until later."

Now I am a bundle of nerves. It's not the outcome of this action--it's the whole act of negotiating with this person. She's becoming an alien to me. I'm getting to where I don't remember her or what it's like to be with her. Probably just another stage.
Posted By: fightingback Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/10/07 11:32 PM
sdg...hang on....you are doing great...

I feel the same way about WS...she is a different person to me...its kind of scary...it makes ot seem so much more real...

she sounds open to working it out and if that works for you financially stick with it...you are going to be totally drained by all that contact...but in the end it might be worth it. make sure you get some rest and some self care. we are pulling for you.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/11/07 02:20 AM
Anxious, anxious, anxious. I'm starved but nauseous at the same time. Hot bath tonight. And drugs.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/11/07 02:33 AM
sdguy, when I was negotiating my LSA with my WH, it was excruciating. I would email him this, he would email back that (and this was when I had an intermediary). Even receiveing changes made to the LSA, through my lawyer, was tough.

You ripped that band-aid off, and probably took a few hairs with it. Hang in there. This person that you talk about forgetting about how to be with and that you don't remember, well, she's not the person you are negotiating with. They are not one and the same. You would not be negotiating with your wife.
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/11/07 02:38 AM
SD,

Negotiations do suck. I know the feeling of anxiety (and I know the meds well) when dealing with the dismantling of a M. It becomes business.

Your doing great... will keep you in my prayers also while I'm away.

Still
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/11/07 02:42 AM
Quote
You ripped that band-aid off, and probably took a few hairs with it. Hang in there. This person that you talk about forgetting about how to be with and that you don't remember, well, she's not the person you are negotiating with. They are not one and the same. You would not be negotiating with your wife.

SDguy, I've never posted on your thread but SL hit it on the mark. You're not negotiating with the person you think is your wife. Gloves should be off. All's fair in love and stupidity. Think about it.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/11/07 03:18 AM
Thanks, guys. WW negotiating with me is to my benefit, because the court's formula will drastically favor WW. I don't sense that she is looking to hurt me, though. I think she is just drifting through this--probably doesn't understand why I can't just get over it and move on. I think she has been reluctant to ask for much (she maintained 50% custody all along, didn't take much from the house). It feels like she's doing what she can to make this easier for me (when I'm not holding up the mirror, anyway). I've read that waywards can be counted on to make terrible legal decisions.

So I guess I am trying to take advantage of that. I've made an offer that seems fair to me, benefits my children rather than OM, and is in my financial best interest.

We'll see.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/11/07 03:23 AM
Have a great trip, Still.

You're going to the Sippy Cup Care and Maintenance Symposium, right?
Posted By: fightingback Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/12/07 06:47 AM
sdg......have you heard from WW???
still sending you good vibes.
don't let her steal your peace!!!!!!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: On Sippy Cup Care - 04/12/07 06:00 PM
Nope, and mentally I am bouncing off the walls. Why hasn't she responded yet? Was she waiting to talk it over with OM? Her lawyer? What will they say? Get more of his money, right? If she gets what the formula says and then I have to buy her out of the house, will I be able to keep it? Boing, boing, boing.

To top it off, the email account I use to receive forwarded mail from my intermediary is a hotmail account, and so far today the hotmail login page hasn't worked. Argh! Boing.

I'm all triggered and in Caged-Animal mode. There must be something else I can do, right? The ILs--they don't know what a scumbag the OM is. They don't know that he's lying to WW about his own divorce and what his lawyer told him. They don't know that after OMW found out, OM said he would stop the affair and attended MC with her for months (having told WW that he didn't want to stop, so they didn't). If they knew what a POS he is, they could . . . they could . . . Boing. B-boing, boing, boing. Or maybe I could just tell them the facts, knowing that they probably can't do anything, but maybe they would at least agree with me that she's making a mistake and validate my feelings . . . (are you listening, LilSis?) Boing, boing, boing.

Trying to be calm. Trying to breathe. Trying not to worry about it.

Boing.
Posted By: chrisner The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/12/07 09:35 PM
Maybe she is talking to the television again.

Calm down and wait it out SD. I would think it is highly likely she is talking to her A about it. You don't have any control over what she is doing right now so try to let it go. I know, easy to say but.....

Even if she does consult with her A and they work to get more, that does not mean your effort was wasted. If you had not made your proposal her A would have made the same advise anyway.

You took a chance. Let it play out.
Posted By: FaithfulWifeCJ Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/12/07 10:20 PM
sdguy,

Wanna play "Worst Case Scenario" with me? Let's see...the worst thing that could happen would be if she turned you down and demanded the Taj Mahal for free and $25,000 per month CS and alimony--right? At which point you could just say, "No thank you" and let your A battle it out with her A.

Most likely, she is looking it over, thinking it over, asking the TV what to do, and will respond with some proposal of her own. That's all.

BTW--it was fun playing "Worst Case Scenario" with you. Next time--TWISTER!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Your faithful friend,


CJ
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/12/07 10:21 PM
Thanks, Chris. Good advice. I know it's the right thing, and it's what I intend to do, but I'm having a hard time being calm about it. I'm just really anxious.

So wound up. Maybe I'll go for a walk. I'm certainly not getting any work done.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/12/07 10:50 PM
It's just the waiting. Same feeling I got when I would send WH an email and have to wait, sometimes days, for his response. Now, I don't fret. I check my mail, and while it's loading, I breathe deeply, then open my eyes. If nothing is there, then I take another breath and log off.

I get the BOING thing. Again, you want that band-aid ripped off, but that's not how D settlement works, right? If you received this offer, you would have no response right away either, not right away. Boing, breathe.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/12/07 11:52 PM
Yeah, it's the waiting. I'm anxious because I know the clock is ticking. Worst-case scenario for me is WW deciding she wants blood (don't think that will happen). Next-worse-case scenario is we go to court, because the No-Fault court is going to tell me to pay much more than I want to. So if nothing happens between now and next Wednesday, I lose. If they just plug the numbers in, I'm afraid that I could lose my house.

I'm currently much more worried about this than my Plan B, so I'm thinking about sending the following message:

"I think that we can reach an agreement on this that we both think is fair, and I agree that this would be in everyone's best interest (except the lawyers, who will get more of our money if we go to court). I'm aware that the clock is ticking, and I'm a little anxious that I haven't heard anything from you yet. If we think we need more time to work something out, we could always push back the hearing date. I'm prepared to start up any agreement we reach as soon as we reach it--it need not be court-ordered.

Let me know."

Opinions?
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/13/07 12:05 AM
As Doris Day would say "Que sera sera, Whatever will be will be". I'm not being flippant, either. You have done everything on your end to negotiate. Don't do anything else. Let her respond. This is not about Plan B. She WILL contact her lawyer, unless the guilt is too excruciating. Wait, just a little bit longer. You can do it.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/13/07 12:26 AM
No, you're right. I'm thinking to wait at least another day before sending anything like this. I just wanted to be ready in case I still don't hear anything. Or maybe I want to feel like I'm doing something.

At the very beginning of this, my IC asked me "Are you a patient person?" knowing full well that this was going to be a marathon and not a sprint. And I said "Uh-oh," because I didn't think that I was. I have discovered new depths of patience (and strength) and think I do pretty well. It's not easy to do, though, especially when I am B-boing-boing-boinging off the walls. You guys help me.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/13/07 12:43 AM
I know this is totally off topic, but I just got my son out of the tub and dried him off and put a nice long Superman T-shirt on (that his Zada- or grandpa gave him) but I didn't have any underwear, yet. He said, "Hey this shirt will keep people from seeing my penis!" I HAD to laugh. I told him that's probably a good thing. Kids, go figure...

I thought I WAS a patient person, and, to some extent, I was, but I was challenged with Plan B. I can now say that I am defintely patient.

It takes EXTRAORDINARY patience and fortitude to handle what you are dealing with, so give yourself a break, guy. You are doing G-r-r-r-r EAT!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/13/07 09:35 PM
Still haven't heard anything.
Posted By: FaithfulWifeCJ Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/13/07 09:45 PM
Okay sdguy...

I see another round of "Worse Case Scenario" is required--and I was really looking forward to playing TWISTER too!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Okay--worst case scenario #1--you go to court, they plug in the numbers and come up with more than you want to pay. YOU HAVE A LAWYER!! That's what he's there for...to explain to the court the extenuating circumstances why you shouldn't pay the "normal" formula. The court listens to about HALF your reasons, it's higher than what you want and lower than the formula AND you are done and free from worrying about how much $$ WW will nip you for. You're not thrilled but it's tolerable AND you can move on.

Worst case scenario #2--you go to court, they plug in the numbers, the order the formula and will listen to nothing (very unlikely)...and you lose your house. You have to sell it and move somewhere else entirely. And...??? What??? You would still be alive. You would still be free of WW. You would still be smart and funny and cute. So you eat tuna casserole instead of filet mignon! Big deal. When you do decide to date, you will be able to relate to every single-mom you go out with because they ALSO eat tuna casserole instead of filet mignon. You will be able to pick a house that is completely yours that WW can NEVER TOUCH. She will lose all her power of you and never be able to threaten you again. IT"S DONE.

So although neither is ideal, even the worst case stuff is not the end of the world, sdguy. You will be alright and you will survive this.

Your faithful friend,


CJ
Posted By: chrisner Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/13/07 09:46 PM
Hey SD,

I was just having a conversation with my TV about you.

Hang tough it still does not mean a thing. She is still thinking and whatever happens will happen. In typical wayward fashion she probably believes there is something hidden or controlling in your offer. She just can’t figure it out. If she throws it back, well that’s why you got the attorney.

Stay tough. Marathon not Sprint.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/13/07 10:23 PM
I'm more together today, but thanks for the pep talks. I think it's more the waiting than the outcome. I can live with whatever outcome.
Posted By: schoolbus Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/13/07 10:48 PM
SD,

Just wait for her response. Sometimes, it takes people time to think about things and get back to you.


It takes longer for stupid people..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/13/07 11:17 PM
Argh. Okay. Okay, I'll keep waiting. I'll give it another day or two.

I know I'm overanalyzing, but the path of least resistance for her is to just go to court and say nothing back to me. My lawyer tells me that the only reason for her *not* to go to court and get whatever she can is guilt. The most effective way for me to introduce guilt is to engage with her.

The downside for me with engaging with her is that I have to engage with her, and I get triggered and hurt and all of that. I'm prepared for that. Does saying something else now make me come across as desperate or something?

Like I said, I'll wait a couple more days, but here's what I'm thinking about saying at that point:

"You haven't responded to my proposal, and that's fine. I don't think we should rush to a decision. Along those lines, maybe we should push back the hearing on Wednesday to give ourselves time to reach an agreement that we both think is fair (which I believe we can do, and in doing so save ourselves some court costs)."

I have a massage scheduled in 45 minutes. I really really need it.
Posted By: chrisner Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/13/07 11:47 PM
IF....you respond in a couple days you need to approach it as a salesman. You already made your presentation. What good salesmen do that separate them from the poor salesmen is Ask For The Order .

something like:

"Hopefully you had a chance to fully consider my proposal. I really feel this plan is fair for both of us and the kids. Can we agree to this plan?"

Just my thoughts from the guy whose own marriage looks like the last few seconds of the Space Shuttle Challenger.
Posted By: believer Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/14/07 02:11 AM
Just be patient. My ex was completely unreasonable and wanted everything. I just waited him out. Once in awhile I told him I hoped that we were once in love, and good friends too, and I didn't want to give all my money to an attorney.

My divorce from kids dad 15 years ago (with me going for sole custody) cost me $12,000. and my ex $15,000. And the attorneys were just getting warmed up.

It was settled over lunch in the end - the 2 attorneys had lunch, that is. Ex and I couldn't afford the cafeteria food.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/14/07 08:29 PM
Triggered again. I took DS7 to baseball practice today and had a good time--got to run around myself and get some exercise. As I was taking him back we were chatting about what he might do today (she has them). I suggested they might go to the pool, and then he began talking about the pool--how WW doesn't get in the water . . . except for the time OM pulled her in. Nice images of family fun at the pool. Pause. DS7 figured it out, I think, but I managed to say "I'm glad that you're having fun at the pool."

Getting over it. Didn't have to smash anything.

I find myself wanting to tell her "While you and OM are still married, bringing OM around our children in "stepfather mode," is 1) morally wrong, and 2) bad for our children."

I won't.
Posted By: Orchid Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/14/07 08:31 PM
Quote
Triggered again. .....I find myself wanting to tell her "While you and OM are still married, bringing OM around our children in "stepfather mode," is 1) morally wrong, and 2) bad for our children."

I won't.

Why not? Or better yet, make it mandated in the LSA.

JMHO,
L.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/14/07 08:33 PM
Tried that. She wouldn't agree to it, and the judge "won't interfere in her personal life" I was told.
Posted By: LilSis Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/14/07 10:19 PM
Ouch. You are really strong, SD; I don't know how you do it. I'm glad you had a good time at practice.

Nothing wrong with smashing something, either, so long as it's meant to be smashed...milk jugs in the recycling bin? Or "smashing" the baseball at the batting cages (ball = OM head)? or bowling (pins=OM)?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/14/07 10:33 PM
My IC recommended smashing glass bottles, and I actually tried that once. I put a brick in the recycling bin and tried to break beer bottles against it, but they wouldn't break. They were just really really loud.

Batting cages is a good idea.

I'm feeling much better. A walk helped. I know that I am good and strong. I know that I can't fix or save WW. I know that OM is a POS. I know that I am twice the parent that WW will ever be. I know that I am doing the right thing. I know that I will be happy however this comes out.

I have many things to say to WW--things that I don't think anyone has said to her, but I know that she won't hear them. So I think to her "It's a fine hole you've made for youself. Just keep digging . . . ."
Posted By: FaithfulWifeCJ Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/16/07 05:44 PM
Hey sdguy--

Just checkin' in. Any word from WW over the weekend? Like, "Why yes, sd...after due consideration I think your proposal is more than reasonable. Let's write it up."

That's my game called: "Best Case Scenario" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I'm trying to check in with all my Killer Bees today...

~~CJ

P.S. Hasn't the TV told her what to do yet?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: chrisner Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/16/07 06:21 PM
Maybe the TV's unplugged.

What be up and stuff SD?

I think DD19 is already packed to go to the beach party in your hood.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/16/07 07:50 PM
I don't know where I am at the moment. I read the other threads about being done and feel that way, too, sometimes. But then other times I look at my situation and think that there's a lot of hope left. Anyway, here's the update.

I hadn't heard anything by Saturday afternoon, so I sent the email asking whether we should continue the court hearing to give ourselves more time. Still nothing back. Sunday morning rolls around, and she drops the kids off. She tells me who hasn't eaten lunch and who does or doesn't need a bath, but nothing about the proposal. The day goes by, and still I hear nothing.

Sidebar: DS7 has been having some anger issues, I think. He torments his little sister. Now, this is a normal stage of development, but lately I have seen him doing it out of anger. Especially when something doesn't go his way and he perceives it is going her way instead. Yesterday at the park, we did what he wanted to do for a while and then went to do what DD3 wanted to do, and he sank into anger. He groused and fumed and ultimately picked up a small nut (I thought it was a rock) and threw it at her, or at least towards her. DS7 is a great kid. He has received glowing comments from every teacher, daycare provider, or parent he has ever been around. So this incident pushed things past the "normal" threshhold.

That, combined with the fact that I need to switch a day with WW, led me to call her yesterday. It was all very pleasant--thet kind of friendly co-parenting that I'm sure she has wanted all along. We agreed to the switch, I explained what had happened at the park (and elsewhere) and we discussed it at some length. She responded like a real mother rather than an alien.

And then I asked about the proposal. Said that I'm sure my lawyer is going to call me, and I want to know what to tell him. She said she still hadn't decided what to do. Her lawyer apparently told her that my proposal was unusual--that there were no direct payments from me to her and questioned the continuance of a joint account. I responded with why I didn't think that was the case, and she didn't disagree with my points.

I said that maybe we should get a continuance just to give ourselves more time. I acknowledged that probably my proposal wasn't enough (I had looked at the numbers again, and it's probably not enough). Then she said I could talk to my lawyer about getting a continuance. I said this is your hearing. She said she didn't know that and that she hadn't told them to schedule it--she just assumed it was the natural progression of things ("I don't know how this works").

I asked again about continuing, and she asked where I was with temporary spousal support. I said that I would work with her but added that she could guess how I felt about it (mistake). She said she needed to think about it and discuss it with the tv and would let me know in the morning. At various points during the conversation, we each acknowledged that we thought we could reach something that was fair and that we didn't need a court order to enforce anything. I ended with 'it was nice talking with you,' and she said 'thanks.'

The bit about not calling the hearing makes me even more convinced that she's just drifting through this and doesn't know what she's doing. I don't think it was the tv she needed to discuss things with last night. And I'm pretty sure if I hadn't called, she would have just let it go to court. She seems very malleable right now, so I may push a little harder to stay out of court.

I'm also kind of looking for an opportunity to insert the 'Just to be clear, I haven't initiated any of this court stuff. I choose marriage. You're the one who wants divorce.' message.

It's not morning anymore, and I haven't heard anything from her. And, yes, my lawyer did call me already. This is all so confusing.
Posted By: fightingback Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/16/07 08:49 PM
sdg............ugh!!!
I don't envy you in this at all!!!!
I guess you are doing the only thing you can. I think you did real well on the phone with her. cool, calm, collected!!!! you are keeping it together. this stuff bites!!!! hang on!!!
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/16/07 08:55 PM
Well, you got an answer; it may be muddled and hard to understand, but it is an answer. Now, you tell your lawyer what you want to try and do. Obviously, you can not rely on your WW to lead this case, as she has no convictions. If she was just dying for a D, wouldn't she know every detail down to where her lawyer liked to have lunch and his favorite sandwich?
Posted By: chrisner Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/16/07 09:03 PM
I agree. She is not committed to this divorce. I think she may be scared. Somewhere here is an opportunity. Talk to your lawyer.

Hopefully Gilligan's Island does not come on while she is talking to the TV. That could be a set back.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/16/07 09:38 PM
Skipper! I received seasons 1 and 2 as a Christmas gift. Guess I better not send them over with the kids, huh?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/16/07 10:08 PM
No, I agree that there's an opportunity here. I'm just not sure exactly what it is and how to play it.

Get a support agreement I like and then sit on my hands, I think, but I'm open to suggestions.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/17/07 01:47 AM
Triggered myself again.

Saw WW at DS7's baseball game. Reminded her, in a nice way, that she said she would get back to me. She said she hadn't decided what to do. She had talked to her lawyer, who (predictably) recommended that she go ahead with the hearing and get everything and Then we could work out a deal. Or that her lawyer could try to get an extension. I told her that I had talked with mine and asked him to get a continuance, so he will be talking with her lawyer. I said that I'm not trying hurt you, just want something that's fair. She said that the same goes for her. I ended with "None of this is my lawyer's doing. I choose marriage. You're the one who wants the divorce." It took her a sec to get the point, then she nodded and said yes.

So now I'm analyzing and projecting and assuming. It certainly feels like I'm dead to her--that she wouldn't come back even without OM. I didn't get any sense that a divorce is not what she wants, and I may have strengthened her resolve.

And I'm also thinking ahead. What she should probably do is what her lawyer recommends--go to court and get everything she can. The only reason not to is that it will make me extraordinarily pissed off, but what does she care about that? She can "negotiate" with me afterward and pretty much decide what I should pay. Gee, thanks. Let's see--where did I leave that plan FU?

This is, of course, what Jennifer cautioned me about when I mentioned negotiating with WW. Getting my hopes up when I'm dealing with a WS. And so, the self-awaress checklist--why does this suck? Because it's one more thing I have no control over, and it felt for a minute like I did. Because I got up close and personal with the WS and got exposed to the Fog (but what if it isn't Fog and she has good reasons for not wanting to be with me?). And maybe it's one more thing that I'm right about, but that doesn't get me anything (anger comes from seeing the difference between the way things ought to be and the way that they are).

I'm angry at myself for adding the bit at the end. This doesn't appear to have been the kind of opportunity I was hoping for. Like Chris said earlier, I took a chance. It could still work out.

I think I will get over this trigger quickly. Maybe I will even eat something tonight.

Sigh.
Posted By: fightingback Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/17/07 12:33 PM
Quote
Getting my hopes up when I'm dealing with a WS. And so, the self-awaress checklist--why does this suck? Because it's one more thing I have no control over, and it felt for a minute like I did. Because I got up close and personal with the WS and got exposed to the Fog (but what if it isn't Fog and she has good reasons for not wanting to be with me?). And maybe it's one more thing that I'm right about, but that doesn't get me anything (anger comes from seeing the difference between the way things ought to be and the way that they are).


((((((((sdg))))))))))

yes, you put yourself out there. but see how clearly you are seeing everything??? you DO have control of YOURSELF!!! and you knew exactly what you were getting into...knew that you would get some foggy behavior....knew what it was like to interact with WW. thats why you will get over this trigger quickly...because you accept that there are things out of your control and you are letting those things go. so yes...it does suck. but YOU don't!!! you are real...centered...focused. making hard real decisions, doing the best for your family. WW is none of those things. just because she thinks(and you do too) that she can name her price and win.....doesn't make it so. it aint over until the fat lady sings....

do you have a great lawyer? one who believes in your cause? time to stop playing nice me thinks!!!
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: The TV Told Me To Have the Affair - 04/17/07 12:43 PM
I agree with Fighting, no more Mr. Nice Guy. You tell your lawyer what you want. He works for you, not for your wife. You've, again, gotten an answer, albeit a muddled, unsure answer, you got an answer. Your WW did not stand in front of you and say that her lawyer was going for this and that and she wanted a D. YOU led the conversation. YOU asked the questions and stated that you wanted M and she wanted a D. AFter her 'second' pause, she THEN nodded and said yes. Right. Still doesn't sound like someone PUSHING anything.

Anyway, regardless of what you THINK your WW wants, take care of what you need, 'kay?

About the trigger, I never see my WH, never hear his voice, only emails, so I know it must be incredibly difficult to attempt these conversations regarding D with your wife. Please, from now on, let the lawyer do your talking, tell him what you want to say, and let him be your well paid mouth piece. You need to be healthy, you need to eat, and sleep and take care of those wonderful children. This method is not working. Remember, when she is around, the WAYWARD is wallpaper.
Posted By: sdguy038 Basket Case - 04/17/07 05:33 PM
Thanks, guys. I think there was some value in talking to her, but you're right that I shouldn't keep doing it. I feel terrible. Anxious about the hearing. Hurt over what felt like rejection again yesterday. Angry over the lack of control. Dumb for putting myself out there again. And then a great big blanket of depression across the top. Nauseous. Which all leads to feeling like a sap for wanting to still be in this marriage anyway. Man, I feel lousy.

This sucks. I don't want to hurt like this.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Basket Case - 04/17/07 06:11 PM
Clear the conning tower and close the hatches SD. Dive, Dive, Dive. Run silent, run deep.

The emotions are going to destroy you.

Quote
This sucks. I don't want to hurt like this.

Back to the dark.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Basket Case - 04/17/07 06:37 PM
Yeah, I underestimated how bad it would be. I'm a little better. I leave on vacation on Thursday morning to be with my best friends far away from here, and that's probably the best thing I could possibly do. It means I really only have to get through the next 40 hours or so. I can do that.

If there's anyone listening who can give me (and believes it) the "It's still early in your Plan B, you're doing okay, and there's still reason to hope" pep talk, I could use it.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Basket Case - 04/17/07 07:03 PM
sdguy, It is WAAAAAAY early in Plan B. You need this vacation. Also, you are no sap, you are one brave man. You are standing tall for your kids, but listen to me when I say this, YOU MUST TAKE CARE OF YOU. Don't be a [email]d@mn[/email] martyr. Start eating, start living, stop looking to make things easy for your WW, STOP IT. Let the chips fall.

You are only responsible for your happiness, and your childrens welfare. You are amazing. Again, I NEVER SEE my WH, never talk, no voices, no eye contact, NOTHING, NADA. Just get out of bed, breath in and out, and get through the next two days. Give yourself a break.

Stand in front of the mirror and tell yourself that you are a good man, and then say something nice about you, THEN SMILE. FAKE IT! Every time you pass a mirror, smile into it. Sometimes, it makes me giggle.

I don't see the ACTIONS of a person just itching for D here, so buck up, quietly fan the flame and get on with each day. You are going to be alright.
Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: Basket Case - 04/17/07 07:43 PM
SD,

I haven't followed your thread a whole lot, but I can identify with your recent posts. We're in about the same place and I know your feelings. I'm right there with you.

Go see your boys and tell lies and fart and drink beer. You'll feel a whole lot better.

At least that works for me.

Just sending some support.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Basket Case - 04/17/07 07:49 PM
Listen to the Dark Princess of Patience SD. She has it down. Don't help your WW understand her own initiated divorce proceedings. Let the TV and Gilligan handle that.

Where are you vacating to? I think a break from all of this is perfect.

SL, I have been practicing smiling in the mirror too. It sounds stupid but it really works.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Basket Case - 04/17/07 08:39 PM
Orlando, of all places. It feels silly for me to go there, but that's where my friends were headed, and I want to be with them more than anything. Anything else is gravy.

So angry. WW initiated the divorce and is just drifting through it, but I'm the one that gets screwed financially (in addition to all the other pleasantries. Infidelity--the gift that keeps on giving). It's like Clockwork Orange--watching this long train wreck happen inch by inch with my eyelids clamped open.

Venting: "You said you wanted to reach an agreement that is fair, but the only way for us to do that is for us to do it ourselves. The agreement that the court will impose is not fair. Why is it not fair? Because neither the court nor your lawyer care that this action is totally initiated by you. It is a completely selfish (to say nothing of stupid) act. It harms your children. It isn't good for me, and it isn't good for you, either (not that you can see that). Completely selfish on your part, but you want me to pay for it. You want me to fund your madness. And the court will say, okay, SDGuy, write her a check every month for $XX. Yep, that's fair."

Okay, now I think I feel sheepish. Literally, just as I finished typing my vent, my lawyer called me and told me that WW agreed to a continuance. The words from her lawyer were "my client wants a continuance, too." No court tomorrow.

So, um, this is good, and I should calm down and quit whining, I think. Maybe do some work.

Right?
Posted By: chrisner Re: Basket Case - 04/17/07 08:54 PM
Well here our stories diverge a little.

Wayzilla is leading our divorce like Marshal Murat's cavalry charge at Eylau; from the front of 11,000 horses and without failure as an option. It really was better to have her on your side in a fight.

Vent away my good friend. It helps clear the air and solidify your feelings and options. The continuance is good. Hang tough.
Posted By: sdguy038 Cancel Red Alert - 04/17/07 10:09 PM
I guess I'm glad that our stories diverge, because your outlook was making me feel gloomy about mine. I know that I have a different situation, though, if not very different.

Based on your description of Wayzilla, I think where you are moving to is probably a healthy place.
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/17/07 10:38 PM
SD,

Glad you got the conrinuence.... I know the relief you must be feeling.

Just got back from orlando this morning....have fun with your time away with friends.

Still
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/17/07 11:28 PM
Ah, a lovely continuance. Just in time for you to take a load off and enjoy some fun in the sun....wait a tick! You already enjoy fun in the sun!

sdguy, take yourself off that [email]d@mn[/email] hook. Put WW up there and walk away. She can figure out how to get down herself. Don't feel sheepish about your vent, just because the continuance was agreed upon. Keep pushing for what you need. Keep batting that fog back--keep it on her side of the fence.

All you people going to Orlando make me sick. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/17/07 11:31 PM
I remember reading something about mattresses that sounded like a good idea.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/17/07 11:34 PM
"Go to the mattresses"

Go to WAR

or

Jump up and down on them like a child...
Posted By: InHisCare Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/17/07 11:40 PM
sdg,

Take a deep breath, breath...enjoy your get away...you need it. You are not a sap...you are a very brave man...anyone in plan B is brave and strong...

I am proud of you for extending that olive branch again...knowing that it might lead to rejection...but if you don't take those opporunities...

Enjoy Orlando

IHC
Posted By: fightingback Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/17/07 11:41 PM
Quote
All you people going to Orlando make me sick.


ditto SL!!!!!!!

and I am in need of some sunshine.....maybe I'll have to do with some of the fake stuff until we actually get some warm weather around these parts. y'know tanning booth.
I love fla, though.

still, I have 3,5 and 8 yr old...I wanted to take them to disney, but didn't think I could handle it on my own.....wouldn't want to loose one of them <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />...and because of what you mentioned....missing WS.... you GO girl.

sdg......YES! I am so happy for the continuance. I know things are not resolved and it may go on and on. but you DID get what you wanted right??? more time to make a reasonable settlement. now, get out of here and take care of you!!!! shed the WW and do your best to have some fun down there. and have a safe trip.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/17/07 11:55 PM
Thanks, everyone. Much appreciated support.

I don't fear negotiating an agreement--I think it can be done by email, and I don't mind paying *some* spousal support. The continuance will let us come up with an agreement that I can live with, so the engagement was beneficial. Plus, I think that there was some value in giving her a glimpse of the reasonable, caring human being on the other side of the Plan B. The curtain will go down again soon.

Going to Disney (without my kids) has just about zero appeal for me. Or telling my kids about having gone to Disney without them. I think I would rather sit by a pool and drink margaritas (then why leave SD?). Oh, well. I'll make it work. I'm going to have a great time.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/18/07 12:54 AM
SD,

Did you hear about Mickey Mouse confronting Minnie when he figured out she was having and affair? He spent a couple weeks at MB (believer greeted him in) getting his research on Spying 101 done. It was a co-worker at Disney and Jim taught him all about exposure to her employers and the OM's wife. Pep helped out and MortarMan told him to "man-up soldier".

He got a great Plan A going and made sure Minnie's polka-dot bloomers were always washed, and cut out "boy's night" with Donald altogether. He knew one of Minnie's pet peeves was a dirty backyard so he spent extra effort picking up Pluto poop.

Finally the night came and as been the pattern recently Minnie was hours late from work and had alcohol on her breath.

With her cell phone records and emails copies in his hand Mickey asked, "Minnie, are you F*******g Goofy?"
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/18/07 01:04 AM
OMG, that IS HILARIOUS
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/18/07 01:10 AM
FB,

The ;ast 3 days iwas there it was pretty chilly. We were dressed in sweatshirts, jeans and blankets. You would of thought we were watching softball in Maine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

On Sunday we had tornado warnings.

Now back to New England....rain cold and 36 degrees.

SD,

Enjoy.... go to Downtown Disney and celebtrate New years Eve on Pleasure Island. Things you wouldn't do with your kids.

Then you can swing in the rocking rollercoaster ride and jsut don't tell.

Still
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/18/07 07:54 PM
Please update! Thank you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: chrisner Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/18/07 08:14 PM
Update before you leave town. If not have a great time. Go figure, a guy from San Diego going to Orlando for vacation without kids?

My Swedish Grandfather once told me that the Swedish pioneers all got together and searched the New World high and low for a place that was just as cold and miserable as the one they left. So they stopped their search in Minnesota.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/18/07 09:16 PM
Quote
My Swedish Grandfather once told me that the Swedish pioneers all got together and searched the New World high and low for a place that was just as cold and miserable as the one they left. So they stopped their search in Minnesota.

Are you *sure* we're not related? I heard this once (on Prairie Home Companion, I think) and have used the line several times.

Update later, but things are okay.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/19/07 04:28 AM
Quote
Please update! Thank you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks very much for asking. My court date was continued until mid-May, and I'm confident that WW and I will reach an agreement regarding support. I'm not sure why this is such a big deal for me, but I think Fox touched on it on her thread. Probably it's my deep hatred of being told what to do, and this makes me feel like I have a little bit of control, even if it means some additional engagement.

Emotionally, I am worn out. Drained from the last several days, but the last several weeks, too. Since the mediation session and finding out that OM is lying to her. It seems like every day I have to fight back the urge to try to show her what a POS he is. "There must be some way," the brain says. "Someone she will listen to--the ILs, friends" and then I have to remind myself "I . . . can't . . . fix . . . this. She is not my problem to solve." Maddening. Humbling. Frustrating beyond belief. I completely empathize with LilSis, because I think she, like I do, can see the obvious solution to the problem and can't understand why she can't fix it. It feels like there's something similar about the way our brains work.

Then the frustration makes me start to question everything. Will she ever be able to come back? Will she ever be able to give me what I need? Did she ever, really? This would all be so much easier if I believed that she knew what she was doing--that she really had us fooled all these years and really is a bad person. But literally everyone agrees that this is so astoundingly out of character for her, it has to be the insanity of the affair, especially when they find ou how affairs work. Her behavior fits the pattern completely.

So I sigh and try to figure out the best way to keep my Plan B going, because I know that she's going to wake up at some point. I try to remember that I need to take care of me, and that I should channel that problem solving energy into doing the best I can for my kids. I try to remember that I am (or at least used to be) a funny, creative guy, too. (I really liked the Disney bit, Chris, I just didn't have the energy/creative spark to play off it.)

I know that people that know me like me and respect me. I know that I am a good person. I know that I am doing the right thing and that I can keep doing it. I know that better things are ahead.
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/19/07 06:12 AM
(((((((SD))))))

Thought you might need that...Great job on keeping yourself in check and knowing where your problems begin and her's end...

I understand how hard it is not to enable her...it just tears at your heart stings...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> , you will be fine, soon enough the emotional exhaustion will lift from your soul and peace will replace it...

You just do yourself the biggest favor and keep that head up... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: chrisner Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/19/07 03:43 PM
Quote
But literally everyone agrees that this is so astoundingly out of character for her, it has to be the insanity of the affair, especially when they find out how affairs work. Her behavior fits the pattern completely.

The exact description of reactions to Wayzilla. Amazing!

Have a great vacation SD. Forget about this crap! Have fun but stay away from the ladies!
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/19/07 07:25 PM
Sdguy, you're probably already on your way to MORE sunny skies, but I wanted to clue you in on a little secret.

Someday, you won't know when, things will CLICK, change in your mindset, and you will finally, really, once and for all, SEE that you cannot do anything about the WAYWARD. You will finally get it, and Plan B will be there for you. I'm not saying you're daft and can't get it. I'm saying that you have to wait your turn. It will come, and it will release you.

There really is nothing that you can DO outside of a good Plan B. Plan B is like sunlight to a Vampire. There is no escaping it for the wayward, either. Nowhere to place their guilt and anger, except squarely back on their shoulders.

Enjoy your break, have some laughs, hone that humor. You'll re-emerge from the cocoon as stronger person, and you will be happy again.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/24/07 03:54 PM
GREAT trip (maybe premature, currently at the airport waiting to fly home), but I had a fantastic time with my friends. Good weather, fun activities, good food (and it actually had taste to it)--just great. I felt good and much more like myself.

I missed the kids, but it would have been a very different trip with them. I missed my wife, too--watching other families and couples and knowing how things should be. Every time I start feeling good, I get the urge to reach out. This time, it's wanting to say "Okay, it's been long enough that you've been doing this foolishness. Now it's time to wake up and come home and work on the marriage." It passes, though. Back to Plan B.


Quote
Someday, you won't know when, things will CLICK, change in your mindset, and you will finally, really, once and for all, SEE that you cannot do anything about the WAYWARD. You will finally get it, and Plan B will be there for you. I'm not saying you're daft and can't get it. I'm saying that you have to wait your turn. It will come, and it will release you.

It's the emotion vs intellect thing. I know that attempting to convince her of anything is a waste of effort and that Plan B is the right way to go. Intellectually. When triggered, however, the emotion kicks in, and I want to DO SOMETHING. Fix it, because This Sucks and It Doesn't Have To. Then I have to get the intellectual side working again and remind myself of what I already know. Some level of trigger seems to be there all the time, so it's a constant struggle.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/24/07 04:52 PM
Stoopid fricken triggers!

That's all I have to say bout that...

Well, WELCOME home, sdguy! It sounds like you had a great time; you deserve it! Next time, you should probably plan a trip to the north pole, though, just to shake things up (from the shivers)
Posted By: chrisner Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/24/07 10:21 PM
SD!

Welcome back. I am sure the weather in San Diego is a refreshing change from Orlando.

Wish I could have been on that trip. It sounds like a great time.

Now get the flack jacket on and get back into Plan B!
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/25/07 12:23 AM
Welcome back.... glad you had fun.

Still
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/25/07 05:42 AM
The flights home were uneventful. Just for the record, there is actually a difference between the weather in San Diego and the weather in Orlando (the highs here in SD are still in the upper 60s; if I had been at the beach in San Diego, I wouldn't have sunburned the crap out of my back the way I did at the beach in Florida), but I don't suppose those of you with real weather will be impressed about that.

Nice to be home. No one waiting for ME at the airport, though. Sigh.
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/25/07 06:49 AM
We were all at the airport in our hearts....didn't you see us there?

Still
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Cancel Red Alert - 04/25/07 06:05 PM
Thanks, Still! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Down - 04/27/07 06:15 PM
I've been anxious and depressed since returning from my trip. I had a great time, but it's like the clouds descended upon me as soon as I got back. I think that it's because being around my friends (we did things as a foursome, so there was plenty of talk about my situation) and seeing lots and lots of happy families at the Disney parks made me . . . what? Hopeful? Determined? Frustrated? Angry?

I've been fighting off the urge to reach out to WW. She's a very passive person, and I believe that she is just drifting along, following the lead of the POS OM. At some point, I think I will have to reach out to her, because I fear that she is just too passive to wake up and come back to the marriage on her own (even if she realizes it's for the best). But it's not the right time, and I'm working on getting that through my head. Getting back into Plan B (but still need to negotiate support agreement). Not easy.

I have been detached and let go at various points, but then something happens or I see something and I get lured back into feeling engagement will help me somehow. Still feeling like I should be able to fix it. That may be the hardest part for me.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Down - 04/27/07 06:21 PM
Guy smiley, I don't think you will ever lose the 'shoulds'. I know I don't. I should be able to get through to him, I should be able to get out of bed, I should be able to fix this, I should be able to get him/her to see what they are losing. My son should be able to have his father around, so I should be able to deal with all of this, and so on and so on...

Well, we all got a bad case of the shoulds.

That dark cloud will pass, in time. I know, not what you want to hear, me either Smiley, me either. It's literally overcast and rainy at times here today, in the Old Line State. Doesn't help to keep me chipper.

I have found when I'm hangin with my married friends that it can be upsetting. I see how happy and cohesive everyone is, and I long for that again. It's pleasurable to be around them, and painful.
Posted By: InHisCare Re: Down - 04/27/07 06:45 PM
At least you know that the majority of this is stemming from having to negotiate through the legal junk. You will be able to get back to the serenity part soon.

I was blessed to have my intermediaries respond to another nasty e-mail from WH..or should I say OW! Thank God that I was spared the details. Just knowing it was sent kind of made me sick to my stomach!

So, I thought I didn't care, and now I am reminded that I really do. But, each time the trigger hits, the response feelings last a little less time! You know that to be true as well...

Well, it is supposed to be beautiful, warm and sunny this weekend (at least for you not HOT...we are expecting low 90's!!! UGH!)

I know beautiful weather can brighten spirits!

When I am with married friends, I try to remind myself that even though I don't have that right now, it is coming my way again...with or without WH/H!!!!

I cannot believe how similar all our feelings and ups and downs are...I guess it is a semi-BS script! At least we are on the right side!

Hoping you have a great weekend...and that your sunburn heals quickly!!!!OUCH!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Down - 04/27/07 07:24 PM
Thanks, IHC. Your post really made me smile. As does SL calling me Guy Smiley, although I have to confess that my Amazing Mumford impression was always the better one. Ala Peanut Butter Sandwiches! Typical results, too.
Posted By: InHisCare Re: Down - 04/27/07 09:06 PM
I like the guy smiley too..it seems true enough...even though we can't see you smiling, we know it's happening!! I think we should start calling you that all the time!
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Down - 04/27/07 09:55 PM
:::CHEES'IN' 4 YOU:::

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Down - 04/28/07 12:44 AM
Well, I figured Guy Smiley was better than Don Music
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Down - 04/28/07 03:50 AM
That one I didn't remember. Let's see . . . spaced-out musician vs game-show host. Game-show host is nothing like me, but I have always liked the name Guy Smiley.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Down - 04/28/07 01:29 PM
I always loved Don Music. I have no idea why.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Down - 04/30/07 04:00 PM
Hey SD, how did the weekend go. Are you feeling a little better after being home for a few days? I hope all is well.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Down - 04/30/07 09:42 PM
I'm okay. The weekend was pretty good--low impact and stress-free. I'm not as calm as I would like to be, but I think I am getting there. I know that a dark Plan B is the best thing that I can do right now, and I know how to do that and know that I can live that way.

I think the remaining anxiety is from the pending support negotiations with the Sippy Cup Goddess. Dark Plan B dictates doing the negotiations through the lawyers, but financially I am significantly better off if we can reach an agreement outside of what the court will mandate.

As part of the content of another email I sent last week I asked her if she was going to make a proposal and have received no response. Not surprising. I'm going to let it hang for a while and see what happens.

We got a kitten on Saturday. The old lazy good-for-nothing fur-machine fat bag-of-guts (too harsh--a beautiful cat, but dumb as a rock and useless for what you want from a pet)went with WW, and I told the kids we'd get another one for the house. So DD3 and I went out and came home with a cute little 7-week old Siamese that is frisky and has already shown more signs of intelligence than the other lump. I think it will be fun.

My neighbors just got two golden retriever puppies, which makes me jealous. If I were ever to get a dog, it would be a golden, but it's just too much of a commitment right now.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Down - 04/30/07 09:49 PM
Our house has been mammal free since New Years when the last cat had to be put to sleep. We had 3 dogs and 4 cats over the 25 years. DD19 wants me to get a dog but I just don't know if I want that commitment either. They were all pretty cool though. WW loved them all a lot.

Maybe someday.

Good luck with the kitten. I bet the kids are thrilled.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Down - 04/30/07 10:35 PM
Well, at one time, I had three cats and one small dog. Now, I have one cat (orange tabby--AWESOME cat named Jerry) and one LARGE dog (greyhound) the small dog (terrier).

Dogs are definitely more of a commitment. The greyhound is like a lump, but the terrier NEEDs to be exercised.

I love little kittens. Those teensy meows at pitches that couldn't possibly be natural, far too cute for words. I don't miss the ultra sharp claws. Siamese are particularly beautiful. I had one with those piercing blue eyes and chocolate fur, with that deep chocolate tail tip and ears. BEAUTIFUL, but sometimes even more aloof than your average cat. I guess that's what you get for getting a 'royal' cat.
Posted By: FaithfulWifeCJ Re: Down - 04/30/07 10:54 PM
Note to the wise, sdguy...Siamese cats are pretty territorial about their owners. They pick their "owner" and then MUST have some time with the owner (or at minimum...SOMEONE) almost every day. Now, this is not necessarily a bad thing. It's just FYI...Siamese are not the self-sufficient kind of cats to leave for part of a weekend with a big pile of catfood and a litter box. When they "miss out" on time with their owner, they can get cranky and scratch stuff up. OTOH, if the cat identifies you and DD19 as it's "owners" and every day just gets to sit near-ish to you or gets some petting every day...then it will be happy as a cat at a canary convention. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My little Maltese is the same way. I don't necessarily have to DO anything with him...just let him lay at my feet. But if I go to the gas station, when I come back it's as if I had been gone for weeks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Have fun with your critter!!!


--CJ
Posted By: ForeverInLove down today - 04/30/07 10:54 PM
I been following your sitch. Interesting to see plan b from a guys side. I know it's very hard either way. Hang in there.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: down today - 04/30/07 11:45 PM
Quote
They pick their "owner"

I was ready for this and made sure that it was me. For kittens, it's basically a new 'mom' relationship, so she has spent time licking, kneading, and nibbling me trying to nurse. It, um, hasn't worked, and yes, those claws are sharp. The purring more than makes up for it, though.

Quote
BEAUTIFUL, but sometimes even more aloof than your average cat.

I've met a few of those, but I've also met some Siamese that were amazingly friendly. The last two cats we got from the shelter were both lovely tabbies (and more attractive than Siamese, to me) but damaged goods. One was occasionally psychotic, and the other one big and dumb and doesn't seem to have been socialized enough as a kitten and thus not affectionate. I was determined not to make that mistake again (cats being 15-or-so-year commitments), and this time I got to see both parents, both of whom were very friendly (came right up and purred to be petted).

Quote
DD19 wants me to get a dog but I just don't know if I want that commitment either

Think about it. I know I'm looking forward to some animal companionship and wonder whether it wouldn't be good for you, too. Maybe DD19 (or those friendly neighbors you always meant to connect with more) will help you take care of it when you need to jet off to Italy for the latest conference on toddler utensil maintenance. Plus, puppies are, like, chick-magnets, right?
Posted By: InHisCare Re: down today - 04/30/07 11:56 PM
Quote
so she has spent time licking, kneading, and nibbling me trying to nurse. It, um, hasn't worked, and yes, those claws are sharp


This is a very hilarious word picture!!!!!

I got an Australian shepherd from the animal shelter and LOVE her to pieces...very smart dog and she is the one who bit the WH on the back of his thigh...well she was trying for higher...but as someone so nicely pointed out, it was on top of his shoulders at the time and she couldn't reach!

Pets are great for company! Cheaper than dating too (not that any of us are doing that!!) LOL
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: down today - 05/01/07 12:01 AM
Quote
I got an Australian shepherd from the animal shelter and LOVE her to pieces...very smart dog and she is the one who bit the WH on the back of his thigh...well she was trying for higher...but as someone so nicely pointed out, it was on top of his shoulders at the time and she couldn't reach!

LOL. I love that dog!
Posted By: InHisCare Re: down today - 05/01/07 12:23 AM
Let's just say she is my favorite pet ever...and will always have a very special place in my heart!
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: down today - 05/01/07 12:25 AM
report to eav's thread please
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: down today - 05/01/07 02:07 AM
WOw SD a new pet...cool, I really miss my dog...and I thinkt hat I will have to give her up b/c we've spent so much time away from her...I was training her when we left and now the neighbor has her...

Her and her five kids...I was thinking about getting another dog or cat once we get settled...

Best wishes to you... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: chrisner Re: down today - 05/01/07 10:54 PM
Hey SD,

You sure can pick up quick you are in a Killer Bee thread. All we have left to talk about is puppies, kittens, sippy cups, gas grills, chicken wings and beer. Oh yeah, and court.

How are you doing?

I made a mistake today and dug deeper into older threads around here and found a couple that hit way to close to home. Ever do that? Don't. I can see how someone finally gets to the point they have to take a break or leave the MB site. I think someone once said that the Harley's advised not to probe around to much into other threads. Bad visions without chemistry. I won't do that anymore.

I hope all is well. Check in sometime.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: down today - 05/02/07 02:14 AM
Chris, I have read some stuff here, even current stuff and it angers me. I usually take a breather. I've actually started to just keep up with yous guys lately, until I'm ready to help again. Right now, things are movin along for me.

I met with the counselor from the Family Resilency center, where my son will be in group sessions this summer to help him deal with this 'transition'. Since it was an introductory session, I had to rehash the major events of the past two years; I immediately teared up and my throat tightened, fighting not to let the tears flow, but I did. They were few, but BIG. The session removed a bit of love from the ole LB, as I'm angry and upset that I even have to go through all of this.

Also, my DS started with a new daycare this week, adn I'm already going to remove him and put him with my dad (he's retired and could use the money anyway). I have cut my schedule back and shifted it to accomodate her hours and she had the nerve to ask me if I was going to show up at that time (it was 5PM) every day, because she didn't remember me stating that is what time I would be arriving. Um, I arrived at 5PM on Monday and not a peep from her. Well, she wanted to go to a sale at Kohl's, so I guess my tardiness (NOT) was raining on her retail parade...

Her priority is not the daycare and I need someone who's priority is such. Also, she won't supply lunch, so I pack one daily, but I pay $5 MORE a week than I paid my last daycare that SUPPLIED BREAKFAST AND LUNCH. My tolerance for crap is pretty low. Also, she is a real estate agent in her 'spare' time (during daycare hours) and she has someone else come in to take care of the children while she steps out to make extra duckets. So, she's being sacked, and I'm going to replace her WITH, a llama.

WHEW! Sorry Guy Smiley, for the TJ, but I had to get that off of my chest, and I was too lazy to dig up my thread.
Posted By: sdguy038 Sharp Claws - 05/02/07 05:56 AM
A Moose once bit mi sister . . . .

But seriously, sorry the daycare didn't work out. It doesn't sound like a good situation, though, so better to get him out of there. We have been blessed with a great daycare provider--an Earth mother type who is basically extended family now. We used to joke that she's a surrogate mom for us, too. It's a nice bit of stability for the kids. She can't believe what WW is doing but is careful to stay neutral for the sake of the kids.

There are certainly times when I have a hard time reading other threads. Some are too painful, and sometimes I can only handle my own mess. I'm feeling quite a bit better the past couple of days--stronger. Getting back into my Plan B.

As I type this, the house is quieting down, and the kitten (we're going to call her Sienna, but maybe I should refer to her as DK) is in my lap. She's not ready to sleep (but doesn't want to be down, either), so she's rolling around, biting things (the armrest, my arm, whoops, there was that tail, my arm again, the desk, back to my arm). I can't decide which is cuter--the kitten, or the joy on my daughter's face when she plays with the kitten. Man, those claws are sharp.
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/02/07 06:47 AM
SD,

OhOh trigger. No offense but your cat's named after my MOW. Probably should stick to my thread <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Still
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/02/07 04:10 PM
Glad to hear you are doing well lately, sdguy. It seems like a vicous cycle doesn't it? But at least we know now that there IS an upside, it just takes a little time to get there.

Triggers are everywhere aren't they, still? SilentLucidity's son's name is the same as my MOW son, spelled the same and everything. Oh well, the kids aren't to blame.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Sharp Claws - 05/02/07 04:21 PM
Quote
A Moose once bit mi sister . . . .

Ever consider a holiday in Sweden?
Posted By: InHisCare Re: Sharp Claws - 05/02/07 05:00 PM
Ok...here's an off the wall statement...just like guy smiley...

I once told someone not to worry about our dog biting them because they had their distemper shot!!!!

(ok I was about 10, but still...)
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/02/07 05:53 PM
DS7 was running a fever last night and this morning, so I have him home today. Minor trigger when he told me that WW has a coffee maker. She doesn't drink coffee.

Plus, I'm a little down on sleep, which always makes me edgy. Otherwise doing okay.
Posted By: InHisCare Re: Sharp Claws - 05/02/07 06:19 PM
Hey, your WW has had to start drinking coffee...she thinks it will help her think more clearly...cause she obviously can't do that right now!!!

Now...just imagine her nasty stinky coffee breath and you should start feeling better...

Well, it was worth a try!

Hope DS is feeling better soon...no other symptoms yet?
Posted By: LilSis Re: Sharp Claws - 05/02/07 06:27 PM
I think SL's OW and RT have the same name... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hope the little guy's doing better today. Maybe you can cuddle with him and watch a kid's movie (if he still lets you cuddle...). That would allieviate the edginess, I'd think...
Posted By: chrisner Re: Sharp Claws - 05/02/07 06:30 PM
Quote
She doesn't drink coffee

Sorry man. That one would stick me pretty hard too. Shake it off as quick as you can. It's all you can do and you have to do it.

I hope DS feels better quick. Take your vitamins. You don't need to catch it.

Maybe you can show DS how to "pre-load" it with white vinegar for "cleaning purposes".
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/02/07 07:31 PM
The fever doesn't appear to be anything serious. He was lethargic last night and again this morning but has perked up pretty well. We've been watching TIVO'd baseball.

Quote
OhOh trigger. No offense but your cat's named after my MOW. Probably should stick to my thread

No worries, Still. I'll just refer to her as the tiny sharp feline. And it's not as if everyone wants to hear updates on someone else's kitten, like whether or not she's advanced from Sippy Cups to drinking water from a bowl like everyone else's cat.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/02/07 07:35 PM
Quote
Maybe you can show DS how to "pre-load" it with white vinegar for "cleaning purposes".

Ha! What a concept. And, being a chemist, I have all sorts of interesting pre-loads at work . . . but seriously, dark plan B. If that's what she wants to do, who am I to interfere?
Posted By: LilSis Re: Sharp Claws - 05/02/07 07:37 PM
Quote
And it's not as if everyone wants to hear updates on someone else's kitten, like whether or not she's advanced from Sippy Cups to drinking water from a bowl like everyone else's cat.
You mean you DON'T appreciate my rat updates (or obits, as the case may be)?

I'm hurt.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

(just kidding, of course)

Too much time on my hands today...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/02/07 08:31 PM
Quote
You mean you DON'T appreciate my rat updates (or obits, as the case may be)?

That line was just to set up the lame Sippy Cup joke . . . .
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Sharp Claws - 05/02/07 09:47 PM
Guy Smiley,

According to my boss, who's big into anti-aging (he own's a side company that does research, blah blah), just gargle with Olive oil, take a shot of olive oil, coat your nose with it and on and on. Olive oil can act as an anti-microbial, so it makes sense, but my boss is NUTS for the olive oil.

Ok, I would like to profusely apologize to foxy lady for my son's name triggering her, but lest we forget the children would NEVER approve of their parents' choices to go wayward on them. STOOPIDO wayward parents (WP). I wanted a nice Irish name, and it stuck.

Oh, and I LOVE coffee, so lay off the coffee drinkers of the world. Coffee drinkers of the world UN-TIE...However, I am a religious flosser and tongue brusher, so the stench does not follow me like a brown cloud. Plus, I gave up smoking and other stuff, I'm not giving up my dang coffee (24oz. a day drinker).

Man, I used to roll out of bed in the morning (pre child) and start a pot a-brewin, light up a smoke, inhale that first puff DEEPLY and wait for that brown nectar to drip drip through the bleached filter into my lovely little mug inscribed with Felix the Cat. Now I do all of that, roll out of bed (earlier) put on the coffee, and wait, minus the cigarrettes, my old pals...

Oh, Still, her name is SIENNA?! She's named after a CAT...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/03/07 05:02 PM
Very triggered. I checked the court index and found out that OM filed for divorce a couple of days ago. I see this as a move to make it "okay" for the OM to move in with WW. I suspect that his lease will be up in a month or two, and him moving in with her is the next step.

I don't think this makes him any less of a POS, since I still think he was lying to both women, but this really deflates me. WW isn't showing any signs that she's having second thoughts. She hasn't tried to communicate or break my Plan B in a long time. It makes me think that she's so far from waking up that I can't possibly wait long enough for it to happen.

Pretty depressing.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Sharp Claws - 05/03/07 05:32 PM
Sorry SD. There is no doubt he was lying to both women. Gollum did this too. As hard as it is for you to stomach it's what might be needed to fulfill Plan B. From my observation at MB the infidel relationships that fall apart the fastest are the ones where they live together. It makes sense. CJ put together that thread last week that described the destruction in believable detail.

It’s not over and there is still a lot yet to happen. The question is if the divorce goes through and becomes final will you still desire reconciliation? It can happen.

If they move in together this relationship will burn up fast. Look at what seems to be happening to Fox’s WH and Babs. Will it happen before the final decree? Maybe not. What will you want then? What will be best for your two wonderful kids?

You can’t control her any more than you can control the weather. I still believe in the end the choice will be yours.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/03/07 05:53 PM
I don't know. I didn't expect to be so hurt by this. I guess I had convinced myself it wasn't going to happen. (I understand that this is exactly why I'm not supposed to keep tabs on what the infidels are doing. This is, in effect, a self-trigger. Feel free to apply 2x4s anyway.)

I feel anger, revulsion, sadness, rage all shooting through my system right now. Helplessness. Resignation. I know it's the trigger, and I'm not going to act on anything, but Plan FU is whispering to me.

I've also been having dreams lately about talking to WW and trying to convince her, which doesn't work in the dream any better than it did in the waking world. I don't attach any special significance to dreams in general, but when you usually don't remember them and now have them three out of the last five nights, it's hard to just shrug them off.

Hurting, but calming down.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Sharp Claws - 05/03/07 06:08 PM
I'm so sorry about the triggers. I understand how you feel about the OM moving in, BELIEVE me, whenever my WH drops my son off and leaves the driveway, if he turns right, he's going home to Aimless. If he turns left, I don't think too much about it. He always turns right. If I catch a glimpse of the car (I try to have son in the house and away from the window, but he likes to watch daddy leave), I get triggered. Every Wednesday, at 8PM, I get a happy little trigger.

Every Saturday and Sunday afternoon, trigger, trigger, respectively.

My only advise is, if you can, ensure that there are no overnights with this guy.

Now, Chris is right, living together is a sure fire way to be present for those moments that you don't have to deal with in LaLa land. The bad breath, the morning uglies, the smelly socks, the children taking up your time and attention. The DIVORCES that they must both deal with, and talk about, then argue about. REAL LIFE poo, happening. The same poo they were dealing with in their marriages. The romance dies and life takes over.

Now, with my WH, OW is not married, she's 7 years my junio, no children, no other serious relationships. Naive, cute and somewhat stoopid. They probably make a cute little couple, just like the rhinos...
Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: Sharp Claws - 05/03/07 06:27 PM
I feel for you SD. Even my goofy a$$ gets triggered regularly. I've thrown in the towel, but still have trouble detaching. I still get hurt when Me and DS aren't her priority. It just takes time.

Lots and lots of excruciating time. (cue the violins)

Dontcha feel better now?
Posted By: InHisCare Re: Sharp Claws - 05/03/07 06:38 PM
Triggers suck no doubt!

I had one this weekend when I ran into WH and OW at the gas station...all "happy familied". Even though I don't really want him back, it made me sick to my stomach.

The living together seems like it shouldn't matter, but it does. I mean it's not like living together means they're suddenly sleeping together...duh they are already doing that. It just seems like it cements their relationship. I know that is how I felt about it...like he really is committed to the relationship now. UGH!!! It just makes you sick, even when you are in a great plan B!

Sorry you are feeling gross right now...hope this weekend is better.

silent...I personally am a coffee lover too...I was just trying to get guy to smile and see the "many joys of coffee"...mostly just wanted to be sarcastic and see if he could laugh a little...I know I am not quite as funny as he and chris...duh...but it was worth a try!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/03/07 11:08 PM
I feel bad complaining about this. It really doesn't change what I'm doing, but that's not what I feel right now. I posted yesterday that I feel pity rather than anger for WW, but now I'm back on revulsion. And anger.

I'm sure that he is basically living there now when my kids aren't there. I have to confess that last week when I was thinking about reaching out to her I did a driveby and saw both cars in her garage.

It brings up all of the What if they are in the 3% questions and makes me wonder why I'm fighting it. I don't want to feel like this. Maybe I should just embrace the divorce and get this the ****** over with. I'm so tired of this. If it's going to happen anyway, why fight it? I can go out and find someone who wants to be with me--who appreciates who I am. I'm tired of feeling like I'm alone.

I don't know. Probably just depression and triggers talking. All I can do is stay dark, so that's what I'll do.
Posted By: InHisCare Re: Sharp Claws - 05/03/07 11:12 PM
Yes, stay dark.

Wait it out...you know it will pass.

I am sad that you are hurting. It sucks!

(((SDG)))
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Sharp Claws - 05/03/07 11:23 PM
Guy smiley, you are more than welcome to come here and say what you are feeling, we expect it, I know I do.

Man, I wish I had just the right words to say, but I can't say that I don't feel the same, especially when my dad and mom got together through an affair and lasted, and were contented, happy. My mother had her complaints, but who doesn't, nothing serious.

I am seriously happy that I cannot just 'swing' by where WH and OW live, it's waaaay out of the way of anywhere I travel. Look, when/if the D happens, you will be free to openly seek companionship with women; you will be more receptive of them as they you, and you will have a better chance at landing the 'right' lady for you. Until then, just stay in the dark Plan B, as you don't want to ruin any chance of reconciliation, either.

The big question, "What if they are in the 3%?" I've stopped mulling this one over and will face the fear WHEN/IF it happens. I can't predict the future. I can only prepare.

You have had a lot of triggers since returning from your trip, HECK, even while on your trip, you were triggered by watching all of the families around you. We suffer alone, FOR NOW, but not forever.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/04/07 12:37 AM
I'm fighting the urge to reach out to WW and try to convince her not to let OM move in. I'm not going to, but the thoughts are banging around my head. I'll try to get them down and post them.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/04/07 01:24 AM
So I put on the classical music channel on while I'm making dinner for the kids, and Pachelbel's Canon comes on. One of W's favorites. It was played at our wedding (like everyone else's). Triggered. Waterworks.

And then thinking that "Is this it? Am I going to be triggered like this for the rest of my life? And how much should I hate someone that made me this way?"

And then realizing that I'm in charge of who I am. Sigh.
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/04/07 01:49 AM
(((SD))),

I know how you feel. Just stay dark... I reached out to WH yesterday and didn't get any repsonse. So basically sometimes it feels like we're d*mned if we do or don't.

I don't think thier in the 3%, if they do move in together I think it will just make the fantasy go away.

Hang in there ((((SD)))

PS> Silent... yeah she's names after a cat. I bet the cat is cuter.

Still
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Sharp Claws - 05/04/07 02:12 AM
OH, SD....

I am so sorry...I can speak from experience that IT does get better...

OW was a bus driver, okay...everytime a bus would pass I would trigger...today, a bus passed right in front of work, just like every day and I thought to myself...WOW, I haven't been thinking about the A...

Come to think about it, I couldn't even remember the bus number that she drives... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Progress, not perfection!

((((SD))))

It will get better!

Keep your head up...you are doing an AWESOME job... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: chrisner Re: Sharp Claws - 05/04/07 02:51 AM
Hey Amigo. Call me if you need to. It will get better.

Ah yes,

Johann Pachelbel’s Canon in D. On every $3.99 Masterpieces of Baroque CD in the clearance bins by the door at Walmart. A cello player’s dream to cure their own insomnia. 10,000 fifteen year old guitar playing wannabes and their youtube videos who can’t even spell his name correctly. Overrated tripe. A simple tune for simple minds. No wonder it is one of her favorites.

Put on ZZ Top.

If you want classical go with Gershwin. He is never played at weddings.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/04/07 03:05 AM
I'm calming down. The trigger was worse than I would have expected, though.

Quote
A simple tune for simple minds. No wonder it is one of her favorites.

I think you are onto something here and wonder whether it wasn't part of our problem.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Sharp Claws - 05/04/07 12:31 PM
My Aunt sang "Til There Was You" at my wedding, and it was beautiful. I still love that song.

I don't think all of my senses learned how to 'see' until I fell in love, real love, and I am so grateful for that. After having my son, I am even more aware of my surroundings and the beauty in everything, every day. Sounds goofy, I know, but that song says it all.

I'm not much into classical; as I find the time, I find myself listening more and more, but I was bred on the rock n' roll, and grew up during the disco and pop era, and gravitate toward that.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Sharp Claws - 05/04/07 02:43 PM
Quote
My Aunt sang "Til There Was You" at my wedding, and it was beautiful. I still love that song.

I love that song too. I toot it out on my trumpet on occasion. I picture Shirley Jones (pre Partridge Mom) in the Music Man. I was just a little kid but I was totally in love with her. Merideth Wilson scored a lot of great tunes in that one. I think The Beatles played it at their Ed Sulivan debut. Yeah, I am old enough I saw that too.

Hey SD! Hope you are feeling a little better today. The weekend is just about here! Go visit that beach. That must be great to be able to take walks on a beach.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Sharp Claws - 05/04/07 04:48 PM
Oh, I am a sucker for a good musical...

When Ron Howard sings his refrain with that lisp, priceless. Shirley Jones, was and still is, very beautiful.

Again, guy smiley, I really hate you, dang beach walking, sassa frassin, rrrrr......

I hope that you have a better weekend! Hope you get sand in your eye!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/04/07 05:07 PM
I was feeling better last night, but it's morning again, and that's when the depression is worst. Thinking about how much longer it's going to take for the affair to fall apart now that OM seems to have weaseled his way out of lying about his own divorce. Thinking about being better off without WW. Thinking about telling her what a shallow, weak, pathetic person she is, and what a lousy mother she has become. Thinking that I don't want her back. Thinking about my kids living with this POS. Thinking about how much I hate him. Thinking about my kids and about how DD3 told me this morning she misses Mommy and that she wished she lived at home (I agreed).

Another day chock full of productivity ahead. I'll feel better in a bit, though.

Thanks for reminding me that you hate me, SL. It makes me smile.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Sharp Claws - 05/04/07 05:37 PM
Quote
Thinking about being better off without WW

Thinking that I don't want her back

You and the kids are all better off without WW. It's W who must return home or nothing.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Sharp Claws - 05/04/07 05:51 PM
Guy smiley, I'm glad I put a teeny smile on your face, you deserve it.

You know, I have SAID all of those things to my WH and it doesn't seem to have made much of a difference, 'cause here we are, still separated, still not speaking, still hurting my son. I have to admit, it did feel good to say some choice things to him.

My son says that he misses his daddy all of the time. It's almost as if I'm getting used to that level of pain, so DS would have to dole out something worse for me to FEEL it. I have a PAIN BASELINE. Maybe being at this for two years has worn me down a bit. I'm really fed up with the whole waiting on him, thing, but I'm really waiting on the WH aren't I, because that is who first shows up at the door, before recovery begins, isn't it?

I want my H or nothing. Well, not nothing. Strike that. I want my H or I want to move on to someone else who will be GROWN, like me, but allow my goofiness. My H used to be that guy; he's nowhere to be found. Again, PAIN BASELINE.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/04/07 06:14 PM
Sorry, I misspoke. I meant to say thinking about being better off without W. WW can go to ******. She is dead to me.

Lots of anger today, and I want someone else to hurt the way I do. Someone besides my kids.

But I'm working it out of my system (with the help of mis amigos who listen to me).
Posted By: FaithfulWifeCJ Re: Sharp Claws - 05/04/07 06:26 PM
Yep... I hear ya, sdguy

Frankly, the anger phase scared me because I'm not really a very angry person (Miss Peacelover...that's me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ) but I was SOOOOOOOO angry at my exH. I wanted HIM to hurt the way that *I* hurt and the way that he had hurt the kids and didn't give a rip. Plus...nothing personal but that anger did not go away very quickly. On the rare occasions when I am angry, it's usually a couple hours or a very short time anyway, and THIS anger just stayed and stayed!

Soooo, first you should know that being in the anger phase in pretty normal. It's reasonable to be angry that your dearest, most intimate friend betrayed you. It's reasonable to be angry that the mother of your children betrayed them. And for what???? I know you don't want to LINGER in the anger phase, but just know that it's normal and that it's also pretty appropriate.

Second, I would say that this might be an excellent time for you to write a letter addressed to WW that you do not intend to send. Tell her EGG ZACK LEE what you think of her and her affair, and tell her EGG ZACK LEE how you feel. IRL you will never, ever have the opportunity to tell her these things in an atmosphere where she will be willing to listen and admit the error of her way...but by writing it out--with swear words and all--will help you get it out of your system. After the letter is written, take it out into your garden and burn it--and as the smoke of the burning letter goes up, let it go.

((sdguy))

Your faithful friend,



CJ
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/04/07 08:28 PM
I have a journal and some notebooks where I write stuff like that from time to time. Haven't in a while, I guess, because I haven't had too much stuff banging around my head. Or maybe it's just that I've been getting a lot of journal-type stuff out of my system by posting it here. Probably the posting here, now that I think about it.

I know that I have been banking anger--putting it aside, ready to give it up if she wakes up. I am a very forgiving person, but if our family is permanently ripped apart because of her affair, all that anger will be realized. I guess it's starting to leak out as it seems more and more likely that she will not wake up (in time, if ever).

Thanks again to all of you that have been supporting me lately (Chrisner, SL, BC, IHC, Still, Rin, Fox, CJ). I really appreciate it!

Have a great weekend!
Posted By: InHisCare Re: Sharp Claws - 05/04/07 08:48 PM
Hey silent,

I sang that song at a wedding once! great song...had never heard it before then, but really like the words...beautiful!

guy smiley...

I think you should find some physical activity that will help you release some of that built up anger/aggression. I find that when I can really just DO something (oh say like go to the beach...)I can work out some of that emotion. And of course it helps the depression part too.

I know this angry feeling all too well and am still hashing it out right now too. I HATE WH! If H ever appeared...different story, but this man makes me sick and I cannot stand him.

I am sorry you are feeling this so strongly this week. Sending warm wishes to you.

Have a great, relaxing weekend...and beat the tar out of something if you can!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/06/07 10:23 PM
I went to a party Saturday night with a bunch of people I used to work with, and it was great. A lot of my original support group, so they would say "Yeah, but how ARE you?" I got lots of great hugs. Friday night did a neighborhood thing, and both the kids and I had a good time.

WW told me that she wouldn't be able to keep the kids on Saturday because she would be out of town. Then she was late picking the kids up today. The kids don't know why, and I'm sure she won't tell them.

I'm speculating that the infidels went somewhere to celebrate his filing for divorce, but it's merely disappointing to me rather than devastating. I know I'm not supposed to be speculating about stuff like that. Let the 2x4s rain.

Beautiful day here. I'm going to walk on the beach, but I'll have to remove the sleeping kitten from my lap first.
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/07/07 12:08 AM
SDguy,

Speculating is almost addictive isn't it. Try not to think about it. ( I know Iknow coming from me)

I'm so jealous that you have the beach nearby.... I love the ocean. Can you find a sand dollar for me?

Still
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Sharp Claws - 05/07/07 03:36 AM
guy smiley ( in lower case, as i know the smile is hard to come),

when I was a child, i loved going to Savannah in the summer with my mom and brother and sister. I was quite young, maybe 4, the last time I went, but I remember the sand. It was this beautiful gray color, like the color of a low wintry sky filled with that gray connoting that tons of snow is coming your way. I would also dig for sand dollars. I hold that memory dear. I don't really know why I'm saying it now, maybe to give you a visual on the beach or maybe just to distract you.

Assuming anything just causes pain, but you are going to do it anyway; I always did. Still do. I kid with you, because comedy helps me and it gives me an uplift, even if only momentarily, and my hope is, it will help you too.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/07/07 04:24 AM
All things considered, I am doing okay. The walk was great--nice and warm, great surf, and lots of beautiful people at the ocean. There was a cute lifeguard wearing a red swimsuit, and she saw something and ran out into the surf. It was just like Baywatch.

I sent this email to WW the other day:

"Are you going to propose something? I'm confused--you said that you wanted to work something out on our own but haven't put forward anything. My preference is to work with you rather than pay lawyers to do it.

Is there any chance you're going to reconsider this divorce?"

The last line was basically an impulse. Not a good one--the timing is terrible, but there it is. Here's the response I got today:

"Yes I am going to propose something. I will send you something tonight (Sunday)."
Posted By: chrisner Re: Sharp Claws - 05/07/07 01:57 PM
Hey SD.

Hope you are doing okay. Did you get any response last night?
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Sharp Claws - 05/07/07 02:04 PM
I'm sorry that she didn't come to her senses, YET.

I so know what that contact and waiting for a response feels like. Look, truth is she doesn't know what she's doing, you've said so yourself. She's adrift, allowing these things to just happen. It is painful for me to even read her response, and she's not my WIFE! I have to point out that these communications sound eerily similar to what I would have with WH. She would prefer to not have to deal with all of this. It's her bed now, guy smiley...

One thing that I began to do was to heap responsibility where it belonged. I no longer fostered my WH's decisions, I just said this is the choice, it's up to you to make it. I let go, and to some extent still do that, as he is a grown man, capable of making choices. I gave that back to him.


One last thing, notice how she didn't answer your question? Just pointing that out.

You asked if she was going to propose something, to which she replied, "Yes. I am going to propose something." But you ALSO asked if there was a chance that she would reconsider divorce---NO ANSWER TO THAT ONE.
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Sharp Claws - 05/07/07 02:20 PM
As SL is showing us, don't give up hope...praying for you!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/07/07 05:05 PM
I'm feeling relatively good this morning. The counter-proposal came back, and it is reasonable. She's asking for temporary spousal support, but much less than the court would mandate, so I think I will take the agreement and stay dark until court.

I think I probably overreacted (*gasp*) to his filing. I think that I need to calm down and resist the urge to DO SOMETHING. The whole moving in thing is complete speculation on my part.

I did notice that there was no response to my final question, and I was expecting a big fat NO to whether she would reconsider divorce. Also nothing about it in the proposal, and the proposal is a temporary support agreement, so there's nothing final about that, either.

It's a marathon, not a sprint.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Sharp Claws - 05/07/07 05:25 PM
just keep swimming...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/07/07 06:20 PM
Great minds. I almost posted that one instead of the marathon thing.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Sharp Claws - 05/07/07 07:08 PM
I hate running...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/07/07 07:41 PM
LOL. I almost posted that, too!
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Sharp Claws - 05/07/07 07:45 PM
I mean, where are all of those people going, in their little running shoes and shorts? The last time I truly ran, it was because my Drill Sargeant told me to, and you did EEEEEVERYTHING he told you to do.

I hate running, unless being chased, and then I pray that my ankles hold out...

I prefer swimming, floating, floating with a Margarita...
Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: Sharp Claws - 05/07/07 08:30 PM
Quote
I know that I have been banking anger--putting it aside, ready to give it up if she wakes up. I am a very forgiving person, but if our family is permanently ripped apart because of her affair, all that anger will be realized.


BINGO. NAIL ON THE HEAD.
Did that. Realizing it now.


Quote
Thinking about telling her what a shallow, weak, pathetic person she is, and what a lousy mother she has become.


BINGO. NAIL ON THE HEAD.
Want to do that SO bad, but know it's pointless. They want you to do that so they can tell everybody how mean you are.
Don't give em the satisfaction.

Quote
Lots of anger today, and I want someone else to hurt the way I do. Someone besides my kids.


BINGO. NAIL ON THE HEAD.
A lot of my anger comes from her doing this to DS. I promised him when he was born that this would never happen to him. Now I'm a lier. Thanks WW.

She doesn't know any of this though. I hide all of it from her. I don't know if I'll ever let on to the anger, hurt, resentment. I'd rather remain in a state of grace.


It's so hard to be the mature responsible one all the time, but we do it any way. We do it for our own self respect, We do it for our kids, We do it b/c it's right. There's no shame in what we do. We're good guys and we'll come out on top.

If your WW ever comes around she will be so grateful for the way you handled this.

If she doesn't, whoever you're with next will be floored when they find out how you handled this.

Either way, you're building MAJOR cool points.

Hang in there.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/07/07 09:06 PM
Thanks, BC. Your words were great, and they are much appreciated.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Sharp Claws - 05/07/07 09:16 PM
Great post BC. Spoken just like someone who just ate a couple pounds of hamburgers in deer grease this weekend!

SD, you sound better today Amigo. This is good. If you get too many Major Cool Points I won't be able to hang with you at Bob's in July.
Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: Sharp Claws - 05/07/07 09:30 PM
Quote
Great post BC. Spoken just like someone who just ate a couple pounds of hamburgers in deer grease this weekend!

Been payin for that since last night.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Sharp Claws - 05/08/07 04:19 PM
Quote
I prefer swimming, floating, floating with a Margarita...


i'm for swimming....plus I love NEMO

like floating on those lazy rivers at a water park. relaxing just round and round. is there a place you could do that with a frozen drink? i bet in the carribean...never been, i'm puttin that on my to do list.

SDG....checkin in....I 'm glad you have made some head way with the aggreement. the financial aspect of this reality is so overwhelming to me. I am glad you have made a reasonable arrangement with WW. keep on keepin on.

keep soakin up that sunshine, its got to feel great! right?
Posted By: InHisCare Re: Sharp Claws - 05/08/07 06:12 PM
Quote
It's so hard to be the mature responsible one all the time, but we do it any way. We do it for our own self respect, We do it for our kids, We do it b/c it's right. There's no shame in what we do. We're good guys and we'll come out on top.


Truer words...

You will be (are) an amazing H someday because of all of this...for W (if she appears again) or someone new....

that is something tohold your head high sor!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/08/07 09:37 PM
I've read BC's post several times now. It's great.

Weather here is fantastic today. Hot (80), cloudless sky.

The support agreement is off to the lawyers now, so I think it means we will avoid going to court. Hooray!
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/08/07 10:43 PM
That's good news, sdguy. I hope you can get a reasonable agreement that works for you.

See....CA isn't so different than MT. (did I just say that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> ) Weather is great here, too. 76 degrees, slight breeze, cloudless sky.

So there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Of course, I'd have to find a lake beach to walk on and it just isn't the same as an ocean beach! Less crowded, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/09/07 01:22 AM
Yeah, but those mountains . . . .
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Sharp Claws - 05/09/07 03:09 AM
Well, the temp was about 10 degrees cooler here, but that same sky showed up here! Amazing how that works...

"Blue skies, smiling at me, nothin but blue skies do I see...."
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/12/07 08:51 PM
Trigger, potentially severe. WW has asked for the kids all Memorial Day Weekend (Sunday is my day). I asked her what her plans are. I'm afraid it's some kind of trip with OM.
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/12/07 09:57 PM
((sdguy)))

tough one. If you do let her have them keep yourself busy.

Stay strong.

Still
Posted By: LilSis Re: Sharp Claws - 05/12/07 11:46 PM
...or you could say no, Sunday's your day. You don't need to make it easy for her. Shameless hussy! (oh...I like that one. I'll have to remember it for use somewhere else).

Just don't do it. You have a schedule, so use it to protect your kids.

Don't you suddenly have a big Mem Day picnic to go to on Sunday??? One in which everyone is expected to bring their kids? Or was it that you were thinking of hosting such a picnic? Hmmmm?? I'm just SURE that you are busy, and have wonderful plans for the kids that day, making it simply impossible for you to let her have them for the entire weekend.

Too bad. So sad. Shrug. Walk away.
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/13/07 12:05 AM
LilSis,

Definately like your plans better.

Still
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/13/07 12:53 AM
I completely agree w/ LilSis. If she wants to see her kids all Memorial Day weekend, she can move back in wither their father. This is also your chance to show your WW that you won't be a happy little coparent. I bet she had a really nice weekend planned for all of them...tough [censored].
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/13/07 04:01 AM
My reply was "I have tentative plans for that Sunday. What are your plans?"

She said "I was hoping to take them out of town for the long weekend."

To which I responded "Just you and the kids? Where would you go?"

If it's just her and the kids, I will consent. If not, my plans will be too significant to change.

Thanks for the advice.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Sharp Claws - 05/13/07 04:43 AM
Tell her, "No, we have plans."

She probably is planing an outing with OM.
Posted By: cinderella Re: Sharp Claws - 05/13/07 04:51 AM
I think I remember something you mentioned earlier....something about plans on the Sunday before Memorial Day...I don't remember if it was a picnic or a trip to the pool....or a visit to a museum....or a hike....but it was something. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Something the children would enjoy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I'm sure of it. But it's a bit of a surprise for the children.

Yes.....definitely .... I do remember.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

(Princess looks around for her halo)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

(Hey, you do have plans - even if they are tentative.)
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/13/07 06:37 AM
Quote
She probably is planing an outing with OM.

I agree, but I want to know for sure whether or not that is the case.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Sharp Claws - 05/13/07 12:41 PM
sdguy,

I would treat any request the same, whether it's a holiday weekend or not. Live by the schedule. Your response was vague enough to just turn right back around without waiting for a response and let her know that you made plans. Dont' discuss them, no details, just "No, I made plans".
Posted By: believer Re: Sharp Claws - 05/13/07 01:37 PM
SD Guy - You can bet that she is not taking the kids out of town for the weekend by herself. The affairees never do anything like that. They insist on doing things TOGETHER, and love to drag the kids along.

I would just tell her you already have plans, and leave it at that.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Sharp Claws - 05/13/07 08:33 PM
Yep. You guys are right. My son just told me they had a sleepover at OM's apartment last night.

WW hasn't responded to my question about details of her proposed trip, so I told her that I'm going to keep my plans on the Sunday. She has been very accomodating with the kids so far--letting me have them whenever I have asked (grandparent visits, upcoming vacation), so if she had been planning to take them to her parents, say, I would have allowed it. Given the sleepover and lack of response, it's clear that it's an infidelitrip they were planning (as if there had really been any doubt).

Now I need to decide what else to do, if anything. I'm feeling the need to tell her how much I disapprove of her having the kids around OM. I haven't said it plainly yet. I'm also thinking again about sending an FYI email to the ILs.

I don't seem to be as triggered by the overnight as I would have thought.
Posted By: sdguy038 Input Requested - 05/14/07 05:06 PM
I fell off my Plan B.

WW called me yesterday to ask why I wouldn't give up the Sunday, and I accepted the call. When I asked her what her plans were and who would be there, she was deliberately vague, so I told her I wouldn't give up the day. I told her that her bringing the kids around OM is wrong, both morally and developmentally. I told her what DS7 said to me about the overnight at OM's place ("I didn't want to go--they made me"). I invited her to consult any three child development specialists on the appropriateness of exposing the kids to her relationship with OM.

I told her that it doesn't have to be this way. I told her that what's best for the children is for the two of us to rebuild our marriage, and that there's no reason why we can't do that. I told her that we can be in love again and that it's what I want and what the kids want. I told her that we owed our children an honest attempt at rebuilding our marriage and that there hadn't been one because she never detached herself from OM.

I told her that I don't hate her (she assumed that I did), that I am over a lot of my anger about the affair, and that I can forgive her. I told her I was afraid she was digging herself into a hole that she doesn't know how to get out of; that yes, it would be a huge task to leave the road she has started down (probably the hardest thing she will ever do), but that I want to help and make the task easier rather than harder.

I told her that yes, we should make the attempt "for the sake of the kids," but no, I would not stay in a loveless marriage for the sake of the kids. I have learned enough about relationships and how to make them work--things I did not know before. I told her that I know that I will be happy whichever way it goes, but that my choice is that it be with her.

I told her that I know that our marriage can be great again, but that we both have to want it. And that it starts with her giving up OM.

I said all these things calmly and without anger. There were some LBs, because I spoke honestly about what her relationship with OM is doing to the kids. I spoke with some passion about our relationship--I told her that it was Mother's Day and how much I missed being able to shop and do things for her. I'm sure she heard the emotion in my voice. She listened to what I had to say. The conversation must have been an hour and a half. She had numerous opportunities to cut me off. I asked her at a couple of points whether I was wasting my breath--that if all she was doing was wishing I would shut up, then I would feel like a moron, and she said that I shouldn't feel like a moron.

She mostly listened and didn't contradict what I said. She said that she misses the kids. She said she misses seeing me with the kids (but not that she misses me). She said she is doing what she needed to do, because she couldn't go on living like that. She said that she can't see coming home. She said she's not sure that I'm right. When I told her that DD3 is talking increasingly about missing Mommy and wishing that she lived here, WW responded that "and I get I want to go to Daddy's house." She said she doesn't think I can ever get past the affair. She said she would think about what I said.

She asked me to reconsider giving up the Sunday. I said that I would gladly give it up so long as OM didn't come along on the trip. When she was reluctant to agree to that, I asked her to reconsider what she was asking me to do--that I genuinely believe it is harmful to the children for you to take them on a trip with OM and that you are asking me to compromise my beliefs, because according to our agreement I can stop this. She didn't buy into this (I should trust her on what's harmful), but in the end she said that OM wouldn't come on the trip, so I agreed to give up the day. She may well go back on her word--it sounded like she just wanted me to agree, but I have done what I can.

I didn't set out to have this conversation, but I had been feeling the need to do it--both to let her know what I think about her exposing the kids to OM and to reach out and let her know that the door is still open. I think she assumed that it was closed and that I hate her.

I would really appreciate input, especially from veterans. I was beginning to feel lost in my Plan B--like there was no hope and that I should think about giving up. The conversation yesterday felt like an important thing to do, but I am trying to sink back into my Plan B and not attach any hope to it.

Apply 2x4s liberally. Sorry for the long post.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: Input Requested - 05/14/07 05:15 PM
Resend the plan B email with a note that you shouldn't have talked to her and you will NOT give up your Sunday. Go back to being extremely dark.

If you ever do talk to her again, when she brings up the subject of never being able to forgive her, tell her that is just an excuse she uses to continue her affair and not work on the M. It should be obvious to her that you would forgive her for her A by your constant struggle to save the M. But that is a conversation for another day (not in plan B). It is good to have an answer thought out when you do discuss it (when she has agreed to your PBL conditions).
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Input Requested - 05/14/07 05:31 PM
ah, sdguy. Not sure what to say here. We were talking about olive branches the other day on my thread. This may have been yours. She didn't shut you down, that's good. She didn't get snippy, that's good. She said she misses things about the family. That's good, too. She isn't going to say she misses YOU. Yet. She just can't right now, that would be admitting too much.

I, personally, think this was good. Even if it doesn't mean a darn thing to her, YOU needed to say some things. Now you KNOW you have said how harmful it is to the kids to have OM around them. And you KNOW she heard it.

Now you KNOW you let her see that the door is still cracked, when you had been wondering if she knew. Let her think on that for awhile. Go back to darkness.

Now let it go (as much as you can). You've put those gems out there for her to think about. Give her time to think and stew.

I LOVE that your daughter is telling WW that she wants to go to daddy's house. LOVE IT! That will work on WW. Maybe not immediately, but eventually.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Input Requested - 05/14/07 07:54 PM
Thanks, Jim and Fox.

I think I am going to be able to let it go and get back into dark Plan B.

Quote
I LOVE that your daughter is telling WW that she wants to go to daddy's house. LOVE IT! That will work on WW. Maybe not immediately, but eventually.

When I told my brother this, he pointed out that what DD says is not parallel (she tells me that she wants Mommy to come home; she tells WW that she wants to go to Daddy's house--this indicates where home is for her).

So, I talked about falling off my plan B in the opening of the post, but I'm not really seeing the conversation necessarily as a mistake. I'm still interested in other opinions, though.
Posted By: FaithfulWifeCJ Re: Input Requested - 05/14/07 09:50 PM
(waving) Hi sdguy! Expert here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Okay...according to all the well-laid reasons of Plan B, the conversation you had with your WW was "wrong" because she got many, MANY, MANY of her EN's met in that one conversation! She now knows that she still has you as a "fall back" in case the A doesn't work out. She now knows that no matter what you say, you don't really mind being part of her harem. She now knows that if you say you respect yourself too much to be part of a threesome, that you don't really mean what you say. And she got what she wanted...which is a vacation with the children and her OM to ease her guilty conscience!!

You know as well as I do that she wants to take the kids on a vacation with OM to lend an aire of "acceptability" to having left daddy and getting a BF. She also wants to do something "fun" with the kids and OM sort of in an effort to buy their love and acceptance..."Dad, OM took us camping so he's FUN! We like him!" See what I mean?? And frankly, you are lying to yourself if you think you can believe the promise of an actively wayward spouse to not bring their OP along on the trip. You know FOR A FACT that what she's going to do is maybe not drive up together...have him already be there or come the next day...and then by technicality she has "honored her promise to you" or some malarkey like that.

So is this an expert 2x4? No. This is an expert warning you about what you are doing. You just set your Plan B back about a month AND you met your WW's and your own fix to be in touch with each other AND you are setting yourself up to "believe a delusion."

I know that in your heart, you desperately want her to end the A and come back to you and the children. I know that your heart ACHES to have your wife back! But the way to get that to happen is not to "pretend" that what is happening is not happening. The facts of this case are that your WW left her children and is now having to experience the consequences of her choice: she will not be able to spend fun vacations with them because of what SHE chose! That hurts, and she does not want to experience the consequences!! So she cried to sdguy about having to experience the consequences of her choice to leave her kids, and rather than giving her the opportunity to learn and grown and maybe realize more quickly that she DID NOT want to be without her kids...you took that away from her and in effect said: "It's okay, honey. I'll keep you from having to experience those painful consequences so that you'll never mature or grow."

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Not so good, huh??

Now, it's no big deal. You just need to think about what happened and choose to get right back up on that dark Plan B horse. You slipped off--now you get right back on. VIA YOUR INTERMEDIARY, politely inform WW that you have reconsidered and you are not willing to change your plans for that Sunday. The natural consequence of choosing to leave her family is that they will not be available for "fun family vacations" and that you are sorry that's her choice, but she has the option to change that choice any day that she wants the "fun family vacations" again.

Okay??? (((((sdguy))))) Sorry big guy. I know you wanted someone to tell you it was okay to talk to her.

The mama Killer Bee,



CJ
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Input Requested - 05/14/07 10:00 PM
Well, ouch! I felt that from way up here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> CJ is probably right....but I still don't think you were ALL wrong, but I'm no expert, either.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Input Requested - 05/14/07 10:06 PM
It's what I'm looking for. Thanks, CJ. Bring it on.
Posted By: FaithfulWifeCJ Re: Input Requested - 05/14/07 10:08 PM
BTW sdguy...here's a bandaide. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: LilSis Re: Input Requested - 05/14/07 10:34 PM
Awww...sd.

My heart melted at what you said to her....but then froze right up at what CJ said. All your heartfelt words falling on deaf ears. Is it possible that it can be like the seeds...was it Resilient who used to say that to me all the time? You've planted the seeds, now step back and watch them grow. Don't go digging around in the soil.

You can't un-do it--and maybe you NEEDED to do it for YOU--so just go nice and pitch black.

Does it help to hear that WW is a d*amn fool? Sigh.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Input Requested - 05/14/07 11:37 PM
Okay, so I'm trying not to be defensive, because I have nothing to be defensive about. It's my marriage. I say that because I'm going to post some more thoughts, and I don't anyone to think I'm offended or let it dissuade anyone else from posting their honest input (i.e., 2x4ing me).

Quote
All your heartfelt words falling on deaf ears

You know, I think she was listening. At least partially listening, and I was more than a little surprised at that. I kept giving her the opportunity for her to Fogtalk me or shut me up, but she didn't.

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You've planted the seeds, now step back and watch them grow.

I think the other seeds I planted died, so I planted some new ones. I saw no signs of Plan B working--she wasn't attempting to break it anymore. I think she was interpreting plan B as me hating her and never wanting to have anything to do with her again. I don't think she knew the possibility of coming home really existed.

Quote
She now knows that she still has you as a "fall back" in case the A doesn't work out.

But isn't that the point of what I'm doing? Waiting it out? Jennifer tells me always, always, always tell her that the door is still open. How would WW's actions change if she believed that coming home weren't an option?

Quote
She now knows that no matter what you say, you don't really mind being part of her harem. She now knows that if you say you respect yourself too much to be part of a threesome, that you don't really mean what you say.

I talked of conditions, the first of them being giving up OM, and that I will not accept her back under just any circumstances. I said if she wants to talk more like this (she won't), I would, but that until she gives up OM, I will not be your friend and I don't want to communicate with you.

Quote
AND you are setting yourself up to "believe a delusion."

I don't *think* I am. I have no illusions that this is going to really change anything. My reaction to this is no more than "hmm." At least, that's what I think. I don't think it gives me false hope; I think it shows me that there is *some* hope.

Regarding giving up the day, I really can't play too much hardball with this. When I commented that the agreement allowed me to prevent the kids from going on that vacation, she threatened to reopen the agreement. She could certainly do this, as well as the support agreement, and I would lose. Also, every time I have asked for the kids, she has agreed. I have a vacation planned in June that she agreed to, which she threatened to revoke. I don't think she would (I said "then you can tell the kids why you won't let them go, because I will tell them why I won't let them go on your trip"), but I really don't want to go to that place. In the end, I can't prevent her from bringing the OM around the kids. I got to make my point about her actions being harmful to the children, and I did as much as I can reasonably do to prevent the vacation. My conscience is clear. Will she keep her word? Unlikely, but if she doesn't it will be one more thing that she has to pile onto her guilty conscience.

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maybe you NEEDED to do it for YOU

I do think I needed to do it for me, or something like it. I was getting lost in my plan B--losing hope and determination. And she is such a passive person that I really believe she will never come back if I don't fire up the beacon in the lighthouse from time to time.

I think about the three functions of plan B (protecting my willingness to reconcile, protecting WW from LBing by me, and forcing the infidels to meet each other's ENs). I think the conversation yesterday helped me protect my willingness to reconcile, which I think is the most important function of Plan B. I probably didn't help the other two.

I don't think I'm going to do anything differently based on this. I'm going to go dark again.

Again, I'm trying not to be defensive. If there are flaws in my thinking, please wail away with the 2x4s. And CJ, I really appreciate what you said.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: Input Requested - 05/14/07 11:47 PM
Quote
I saw no signs of Plan B working--she wasn't attempting to break it anymore.

She just did attempt to break it and was successful. They usually try and break it alot at the beginning, go through a period where they don't attempt to break it, and then when they start second guessing their actions, they start trying to break it again (maybe that is why she was willing to listen to you instead of all the fog talk. Let her know that yesterday was the exception rather than the rule. GO DARKER!
Posted By: LilSis Re: Input Requested - 05/15/07 01:56 AM
Quote
Quote
She now knows that she still has you as a "fall back" in case the A doesn't work out.
But isn't that the point of what I'm doing? Waiting it out? Jennifer tells me always, always, always tell her that the door is still open. How would WW's actions change if she believed that coming home weren't an option?
This is a good point. I'd be interested in what others say about this.

For one, I'm glad that you can find something...anything...that makes it feel like a win to YOU. And if you can do that, then it is a win...and it should be left at that, because all the 2x4s in the world can't alter the fact that the conversation took place.

I know what you mean about losing hope and determination. I am exactly one month behind you, so I get that, and I could see why shining a little light might feel like the right thing for you to do.

So....you did something that you needed to do for you. You felt like she heard you. You re-planted the seeds (funny BTW). You are retreating into the pitch blackness.

It's not the end of the world. I believe that utlimately, one mis-step or another of this magnitude along the way will not make or break the chance for recovery. Your conversation might delay it, might hasten it--who knows. But in the end, it boils down to whether or not the WS is willing to do the hard, hard work of losing the W. Totally IMVHO...

Their choice. They know the right thing. You reminding her of what's "right" in a calm and reasoned way isn't going to send her over the deep end.

Onward, soldier...apply the camo liberally.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Input Requested - 05/15/07 03:11 AM
Quote
She just did attempt to break it and was successful.

Well, this is an interesting thought. Where's the damn guidebook that says what the wayward is going to do when, anyway? Thanks for the perspective, Jim.

And thanks for the kind words, LS. I'm trying to get as many perspectives as I can. This may have done nothing more than appease my urge to DO SOMETHING, which was starting to make me twitchy. Back at the beginning of this odyssey and I first started with my IC, she asked me "Are you a patient person?" and I said "Uh-oh." I've gotten better, though.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: Input Requested - 05/15/07 03:55 AM
[quoteWhere's the damn guidebook that says what the wayward is going to do when, anyway?[/quote]

I'm shopping it around to different publishers. I'm meeting with Simon & Schuster tomorrow. I'll give you a signed copy when it comes out.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Input Requested - 05/15/07 12:36 PM
I haven't read everything, guy smiley, but it some respects I do agree with CJ, in others, I know that my husband, inside that insidious wayward, heard me. He heard the things I was saying, but he had dug himself in pretty deep.

I'll read up and post more later, all I can say is never back down on a WW. You take the high, strong, ground. Go dark. If you do have the power to keep the kids away from the OM, then do it. If your daughter is saying things about wanting mommy home, it will only get stronger and worse against the A.

Think, "What would Rhett Butler say?" or any other strong male persona, y'know, like Chrisner...
Posted By: FaithfulWifeCJ Re: Input Requested - 05/15/07 10:48 PM
sdguy,

I wanted to give you a reassurance. What you did by talking to your WW was definitely NOT the end of the world. Shoot, I doubt if it did very much damage. In a way, you showed her that you are capable of being civil...and that's a good thing!

When I gave you the mind 2x4, it was more in the way of looking back on something that is done and saying, "How could I do better next time?" What you done...you done. It's over and can't take it back. Furthermore, based on how deep into the fog your WW is, I doubt if it caused irreparable damage to your stand to recover your M. I just think that on the occasion (like as often as possible) WS's need to hear "no" so they can experience the consequences, grow out of their A, and hopefully return to their M and family! I also think that generally, staying in dark Plan B (not talking to the WS) is better than talking to the fog and being hurt. Finally, I think that when/if you ever DO speak to the WS--you do exactly what you did, which is point them to the M and their family.

Sooooo..it's done. Now you have DONE something...you planted some seeds. Now she knows for a fact that she could still come back. And now, part of your head and heart are at rest because you know that she knows.

Okay?? Don't take my gentle 2x4 too harshly. Just learn and do a bit better next time. Back into dark Plan B and being a man who stands for his marriage and family!!

The Mama Bee,



CJ
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Input Requested - 05/15/07 11:48 PM
Dear CJ,

I adore you. You did exactly what I asked you to do, and you did it well. And kindly.

I don't feel bad about the conversation. It was helpful to me if nothing else. I asked for the 2x4s to test out my thinking. "Okay, this is what I think--show me where I'm wrong. What did I not consider? And, yes, how could I have done better?"

You answered my call like the Mama Bee that you are.

S-D-is-for-dark-Guy
Posted By: FaithfulWifeCJ Re: Input Requested - 05/16/07 12:03 AM
SDguy is now Super Dark Guy!

Able to ignore WS attempts with a single "talk to the hand"
Able to keep silent Plan B
Able to leap WS bull-pucky piles in single bound!

It's plan...
It's a sigh...

It's Super Dark Guy!



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: Input Requested - 05/16/07 12:08 AM
Quote
Able to ignore WS attempts with a single "talk to the hand"

Through his intermediary, that is.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Input Requested - 05/16/07 01:26 AM
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Able to ignore WS attempts with a single "talk to the hand"

There's an Abstinence Man joke in here somewhere, but I'm going to leave it unsaid.

WW doesn't know that her emails are screened, but the point is taken.

Not just dark, but Super Dark!
Posted By: FaithfulWifeCJ Re: Input Requested - 05/16/07 01:32 AM
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

(ROFL--Abstinence man!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Able to ignore WS attempts with a single hand! ROFLMAO!!!!!)
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: Input Requested - 05/16/07 01:38 AM
I think I got that one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Almost like your own B.O.B <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Still
Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: Input Requested - 05/16/07 02:50 AM
It's called a H.O.G. and doesn't need batteries.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Input Requested - 05/16/07 02:58 AM
Hey, ix-nay.

My mom reads this thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: chrisner Re: Input Requested - 05/16/07 03:36 AM
Hello, Mrs SDguy Mom! You look wonderful today! SDguy and I were about to go out to throw around the football!

Thank you! I would love to stay for supper.
Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: Input Requested - 05/16/07 03:47 AM
Chris,

You know we always Pray before engaging in athletic activities. We could get hurt and we need the Lord's protection.

Take a knee and bow your head fellas.
Posted By: sdguy038 Ho Hum, Plan B is boring - 05/20/07 10:31 PM
Nothing but crickets this week. I've had the kids for the last four days, and we had a good time--two baseball games, a birthday party, dining out, more baseball in front of the house, and plenty of kitten time (DD3 LOVES the kitten). I made treasure hunts for them, which I think they enjoyed.

Lots of talk from DD3 about missing Mommy and wishing she would come home. A couple of times a day, and I usually respond with "I wish she would come home, too . . . I miss her, too." One conversation (when DS7 was there) went into bad choices but that they didn't make Mommy a bad person--she's a good person, and we all miss her.

This morning, DS7 asked me if I was fixing up the house to try to get Mommy to come home and that it looks really good. I told him that I was doing it mostly to make the house look better. Later, DD3 was writing a note to WW just before I took the kids over for the transfer. I'm not sure what the point of the note was (DD3 called it a thank you note), but I helped her write Thank You on it. Then DS7 came over to help, and what he wrote was "I wish that you would come home."

I'm not asking them to do it or even bringing it up, but I suspect they talk about her coming home more because they know it's what I want. It's what they want, too, of course, but I don't think I would hear so much about it if I sold them a bill of goods about two houses and everything being okay, but I won't do that. That's not wrong, is it?

Okay, gotta pay attention to this kitten now.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Ho Hum, Plan B is boring - 05/20/07 10:43 PM
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That's not wrong, is it?


Nope. Not even a little bit.

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It's what they want, too,


It is.

They want their family put back together every bit as much as you do.

The fact that you haven't thrown in the towel, but are still fighting for their family, makes you a true hero.

You give them HOPE.

And they are acting on that hope.

~ Marsh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Ho Hum, Plan B is boring - 05/20/07 11:36 PM
Thanks for dropping by, Marsh. I've missed you.
Posted By: fightingback Re: Ho Hum, Plan B is boring - 05/21/07 10:38 PM
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Nothing but crickets this week.


thats good SuperGuy!!!! great plan B!!!!
don't have much advice but wanted to check in
keep up the good work, and please please tell me more about your glorious weather:)
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Ho Hum, Plan B is boring - 05/21/07 10:46 PM
It's totally normal for the children to speak what they are feeling; it's good. You have done well not to bad mouth your WW in front of them.

Crickets are good, but can be deafening, too!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Ho Hum, Plan B is boring - 05/22/07 12:20 AM
Back at you, FB, in terms of advice. It sounds like you're doing great--moving to a place you're comfortable with (and maybe one you would have chosen if you had known how it could be--does that make sense?)

I know that crickets are good, that the lack of drama is important for Plan B, but I want for something to be happening--for things to be improving and getting better. Other things I could have said to WW during my Conversation a week ago pop into my head, and I try to keep them from buzzing around my brain for too long. I know that this takes time and patience, but sometimes the waiting is agony.

I saw WW in her SUV on the way into work today. I tried to make it so we didn't stop next to each other at a light--tried not to look, even. But I noticed mud on one of the tires. The mind takes off--how did the mud get there? What was she doing? Out somewhere with the OM having fun, doing stuff that we never did, right? Argh! I caught myself very quickly and squashed the thoughts, but triggers abound.

This is routine Plan B stuff at this point, but I guess I'm posting it partly for any new Killer Bees--there's a whole range of emotions and feelings that we go through. It helps to know you're not the only one.

The weather here is not great. We're into May Gray (which gives way to June Gloom). At this time of year, we get coastal clouds that sometimes recede during the middle of the day. Today, they didn't, so it was in the low-mid 60s all day.

Yesterday was better--there was some sun, so when I took my beach walk (after dropping off the kids with WW), I didn't get too cold. I was surprised at how few people there were on the beach. I just started walking, not knowing how far I intended to go, and wound up walking through Black's Beach, the local unofficial nude beach. There were more people there, all naked middle-aged white guys (maybe a dozen or so). Yuck. I kept walking. All in all, a nice walk.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Ho Hum, Plan B is boring - 05/22/07 12:23 AM
All I can think is BALLS, BALLS!!!, My EYES, My SWEET BEAUTIFUL EYES!!!!, oy, what a world...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Ho Hum, Plan B is boring - 05/22/07 12:34 AM
I think I posted previously about a beach walk at which I "didn't see the water."

Yesterday, I saw the water.
Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: Ho Hum, Plan B is boring - 05/22/07 03:12 AM
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I saw WW in her SUV on the way into work today.


THERE'S SUV'S IN SAN DIEGO!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Ho Hum, Plan B is boring - 05/22/07 03:16 AM
Think we all drive Prius's?

When I drop my kids off at school in the morning, the cars are outnumbered by SUVs maybe 4:1. Plenty of Hummers here, too. Nice shiny ones, because they've never been off-road.
Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: Ho Hum, Plan B is boring - 05/22/07 03:28 AM
Kinda like two thirds of the King Ranchers in Houston.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Ho Hum, Plan B is boring - 05/29/07 09:09 PM
Guy Smiley, how 'bout that update?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Ho Hum, Plan B is boring - 05/29/07 10:09 PM
Aw, Fox, you're so sweet. Thanks for digging out my thread.

Okay, so when last we left our hero, he had agreed to surrender his Sunday of Memorial Day weekend on the condition that the evil OM not come along on whatever trip the Sippy Cup Queen (SCQ) elected to take with the kids. Our hero knew full well that WSs are liars and that they would probably do whatever they wanted despite any agreement made, but he figured he had covered his bases as best he could by standing up to the madness, even if it was only symbolic.

Thursday rolls around, and no indication has come from the SCQ about travel plans. Further, DS7 does not know anything about a trip. Guy Smiley is tempted to ask Her Majesty where they will be going, but then he steps into a phone booth and changes into Super Dark Guy. Super Dark Guy knows about technology and figures he can communicate with DS7 and DD3 via the kid cell phone (they have indicated that they want him to do this). And so our hero drops off his kids on Friday morning, wishing them a great trip.

Guy Smiley gets a call from DS7 Friday evening. DS7 has visited Super Dark Guy's Fortress of Solitude in an attempt to retrieve his baseball mitt but couldn't find it, and is it perhaps in the Smileymobile? Why, yes, says Smiley, it is, but the Smileymobile is in the shop until Saturday morning. Would DS7 like to have it then? DS7 says yes, but Smiley receives an email from the SCQ later saying not to worry about it, because she will get him a second glove. Confused, Smiley attempts calling DS7 on the kid cell phone, but no one answers.

After the Smileymobile has been rescued from the shop, Smiley tries calling DS7 on the cell phone but there is no answer. He tries again later Saturday evening and still gets no answer. Finally, he calls the SCQ's affair phone and gets no answer. He leaves a message. On Sunday morning, he tries again. Nothing. He leaves another message (I don't know where you are, I can't get through to the kids, please have them call me).

Our hero spends Sunday evening hanging out with neighbors, consuming adult beverages and grilled edibles. Super Dark Guy brought marinated shrimp. Mmmm, shrimp. When Guy Smiley gets home, he has a text message from the Queen (Just got VM, poor reception in mountains, kids are fine). Guy Smiley is a little chafed that the Queen has not informed him where she has gone and has apparently taken them somewhere without good cell phone coverage. Guy Smiley wonders offhand if maybe there isn't a reason why the SCQ doesn't want the kids talking to him while on the trip. To avoid this unhelpful line of thinking, he changes into Super Dark Guy and shakes it off by spending his Extra Day sleeping late, playing softball with the neighbors, and taking a walk on the beach (which was cut short due to the influence of adult beverages consumed while playing softball).

A remarkably good weekend, all things considered.

Today is the party for DS7's baseball team. Super Dark Guy will pick up DS7 and play in the coaches vs kids game (it will have to be Super Dark Guy, because Guy Smiley is still sore from softball yesterday), to be followed by the party. He wonders whether the Queen will show her face at the party. He is determined not to pump DS7 for details about who was on the trip--he knows he can do this, because he is Super Dark Guy!
Posted By: InHisCare Re: Ho Hum, Plan B is boring - 05/29/07 10:23 PM
GREAT story...you have an amazing abiity to tint everything with humor...I am happy that you can vent that way!!!

Super Dark Guy to the rescue!!! (swelling, heroic music in the background!)

I need everyone around me to let me be dark...I get sucked into thinking about what BDS is thinking/doing, having nasty gossip fests about him..I HATE gossip...makes me very angry...WHERE IS THAT PHONEBOOTH!!!!???
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Ho Hum, Plan B is boring - 05/29/07 10:31 PM
Yer funnee!

You sound really good. Could have been a big trigger and you handled it well.

What must the waywards think when they STILL have to sneak around behind the BS back even after the A is out in the open? You'd think they would feel like little kids hiding candy behind their backs so Mom and Dad didn't know. If they think there is nothing wrong with what they are doing, why sneak? 'Cause they knows it's wrong.

I'm playing the same game with WH. He had DDs this weekend and had a "surprise" for them. They went out of town on Saturday night....to the same hot springs I took them to a couple of weeks ago. He took Bab's and her DS7, too. DDs were NOT happy with this "surprise". I called them a few times and they didn't answer their cell phones. Payback for when he can't get a hold of them, I guess. Oh well, I didn't let on it bothered me, just left cheery message telling them I hoped they were having fun with Dad.

Glad to hear you had some relaxation, too. Carry on Guy Smiley, Super Dark Guy, and whomever else is helping you! YOU CAN DO THIS!
Posted By: chrisner Re: Ho Hum, Plan B is boring - 05/29/07 10:37 PM
I Need a Damn Sippy Cup!
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Ho Hum, Plan B is boring - 05/29/07 10:41 PM
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Ho Hum, Plan B is boring - 05/30/07 12:23 AM
Guy Smiley rides again! Good job!

I have aching hamstrings from doing some yard work, heavy lifting and weed pulling.

I didn't have as stellar a time at my cookout, as Wonder Woman and her sister, Super Girl, were at odds.

I love the sippy cup link, Chris, you rock!
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Ho Hum, Plan B is boring - 05/30/07 02:32 AM
LMAO...OF all things to find, Chris...YOU find it! Good Job MAN!

SDguy...amazing, JUST amazing! I'm so proud of YOU! Major Kudos! For consuming large qualities of adult beverages...LOL...I can't...so I'm told! LMAO

It's NOT a cajun lie!
Raise your hand if you thought the SCQ would keep to "her word" about not taking the kids on a trip with OM. <Surveys the room> Uh-huh. You can keep the ITYS's to yourself, thank you very much. Super Dark Guy knew what was going to happen, even if Guy Smiley was holding out some hope.

So Guy Smiley picks up DS7 for the big parent-kid baseball game, and it takes DS7 all of 90 seconds to tell Guy Smiley that he went on a trip to a cabin in Lake Arrowhead over the weekend, and, um, yes, OM was there. Along with OM's brother and maybe OM's mom, too. They all drove up together in one car, including OM's kids. Guy Smiley seethes, but he's not surprised by this. He manages to tell DS7 that he's glad that DS7 had a good time. It slips out that the SCQ had told Guy Smiley that OM would not be on the trip, and so Guy Smiley was angry about that, but that DS7 didn't do anything wrong, and Guy is happy that he had a good time.

On the drive to the game, our intrepid adventurer's head races with all the things he wants to say. "You must be very proud of yourself." "I guess we know what your word is worth, don't we?" "Did you know you were lying to me at the time when you gave me your word, or did you decide later?" "Why didn't you just tell me where you were going and what you were doing? Better to let your son do it, right? Where he will be faced with his father getting angry? Nice parenting there, you gutless coward." Smiley realizes that saying any of these things could lead to an impromptu Plan FU (and man, wouldn't THAT feel good) and knows that . . . this is a job for Super Dark Guy.

IHC, it's not a complicated costume change--Southern California is very casual, and Super Dark Guy has seen the Incredibles, so he avoids capes--typically just putting on a different denim shirt (not black, though, because those are too hot) or sometimes just sunglasses. Anyway, Super Dark Guy takes over and has a really good time at the baseball game. For a superhero, he is awfully slow on the bases and makes some really bad throws, but a good time is had by all.

Triggering again when the Queen calls to find out whether she should pick up DS7 at the game or will Guy Smiley drop him off. Super Dark Guy doesn't answer the phone, of course, and refuses to call back, so the SCQ comes to the ballpark (she is strategically late enough that the post-game party will have broken up), and Super Dark Guy has to see her for the kid exchange (and because he wants to hug DD3). Our hero refrains from asking DD3 (in the presence of Her Royal Highness) what she did over the weekend or why she didn't call and just tells her how much he missed her. He is very cool toward the SCQ and says nothing to her.

Then Guy Smiley retreats to the Smileymobile and calls Mr. and Mrs. Smiley (Hi, Mom!) to vent. After that, back to the Fortress of Solitude, where his company is his faithful sidekick, the Fearsome Siamese Kitten (will you PLEASE stop biting my leg?). The FSK is desperate to make a contribution to this post (23333333333). Tonight is probably a Xanax night, but not tomorrow. Super Dark Guy is trying to Let It Go, and doing a reasonable job, he thinks.

Sigh. Life (and Plan B) goes on.
00000 (there goes FSK again)
Well, sorry that happened. Does OM's mother know that SCQ is married?

You did an excellent job with your son. He is lucky to have you for a father. It is good that he can talk to you truthfully.

I'm sure she knew ahead of time that OM was going. These WS's have no conscience.
(((((Smiley))))

You DID a Fabulous job...I am so sorry that you are having to deal with this...

Hi, FSK...Great typing! Love on your daddy for us! will You?

Super Dark Guy...

I like the costume...it fits you SO well! I have to give you your Kudos...you changed in a flash...that high road will get you everytime!

Do you ahve a lawyer? I was wondering if you could draw something up that says that it's not allowed to have sleepovers with OM...I ask because we can do that here...

I wish you the very best night's sleep that you can muster up...what a day you have had...be kind to yourself!

Supporting you all the way!

Rin
I was gonna post something, but FSK said it all.

Quote
(23333333333).


Number of lies told by SCQ.

Quote
00000


SCQ's cool points.

Your cat is a very good judge of character. It's also Asian which means it's very good at math, hence writing in numbers.

Does it know binary?
So I woke up this morning to the depressive thought flood, and I don't have any appetite (Hello, Ensure) but am otherwise okay. I'm determined to obsess over this as little as possible.

Quote
Does OM's mother know that SCQ is married?

According to OMW, yes. OMW was also told by OM's mother that SCQ would never be accepted by his family, but we all know about blood and mud. And it's hard to know what to trust from OMW. Apparently, she is mentally ill enough that OM has been awarded full legal and physical custody of their children.

Quote
Do you ahve a lawyer? I was wondering if you could draw something up that says that it's not allowed to have sleepovers with OM...I ask because we can do that here...

Yep. The beauty of no-fault states. "The court won't interfere in her personal life. Without evidence that the kids are being put in danger, I am SOL." is basically what I heard from both my lawyer and the court-appointed mediator.

Thanks for the support, guys.
Guy Smiley, you KNEW that she was lying, 'cause her lips were moving...

It still hurts, I know, and I only experienced a teensy amount of this when PWC was living with Aimless, but the feeling doesn't just fade. I felt like my child was in danger. Crazy thought process, but that's what it felt like. I had nightmares that PWC and Aimless tied me up while I was asleep and then took my son away from me. It was horrible, and won't soon be forgotten. I am super protective of DS, you guys know that, probably due to my upbringing in a fractured home.

You are doing all that you can, and it is close to unbearable to read your post and not fly out there and punch your WW in the jaw. So selfish, the fuel of waywardom. So shortsighted, that even the best glasses or surgery cannot help them.

What do they say?..."I know what I'll do, I'll introduce the kids to my OP so that we can be one big happy, and I'll show everybody that this IS love, and that BS really isn't the one for me, although we did produce these kids together, and I disrespect him/her as a parent everytime I expose the children to MY stupid mistakes, but, oh well, such is MY life..." or something shortsighted like that. ERRRRRR, just pisses me off, guy.

You, on the other hand, are a wonderful father, taking such good care of your children, working on your own personal problems. You know what?, you are going to be just fine. You can do this, Plan B, y'know. You will get through this better than before.

Now, drink the Ensure...drink it!
Quote
and it is close to unbearable to read your post and not fly out there and punch your WW in the jaw

Thanks for that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You know, I think I'm onto something with the split personality thing. Guy Smiley is the nice, trusting, hopeful guy who wants to reconcile his marriage because he believes the wonderful person he married is still in there. He still thinks thoughts like "If only she would. . ." and wants to do something to make it better. Super Dark Guy understands the reality of the affair--that W is gone, replaced by SCQ, and while W may wake up some day, there's just about nothing he can do to bring make it happen. He knew that SCQ was lying and knows that there is no point in talking to her about anything and that a dark Plan B is the way to go.

Call me crazy. This will give me something new to discuss with my IC, anyway. Here's another advantage:

While shopping on Saturday, Guy Smiley bought a new tube of epoxy (glue). His old tube of epoxy had been misplaced, and after looking all over h#ll and back, he decided to just get a new tube. Smiley needed to repair FSK's feather toy in an attempt to preserve his legs (FSK is a sidekick much like Cato in the old Pink Panther movies--she waits around corners to ambush him). So our hero bought the epoxy, and it was sitting on the kitchen table (amid quite a bit of other stuff). Throughout the weekend, he sees the epoxy several times on the table. Last night, he decides to glue the feather toy back together and goes to get the epoxy, but it's gone. He looks around--Smiley cleaned up the kitchen but doesn't remember having moved the epoxy. It's not in any of the places he would have put it (he looks four or five times). He even goes out to the trash and sorts through the kitchen trash (dead bananas, excess marinade--yuck) to make sure he didn't accidentally throw it away. No luck. The epoxy has vanished. "Aha," Guy Smiley thinks. "It must have been Super Dark Guy. . . ."

Now THAT's crazy.
LMAO...LMAO...OMG, I have had those days! LMAO

I'm dieing laughing here! I have had a good laugh like that in awhile...

YOU, dear sir, ARE A NUT! And I'm proud to know you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree with SL, YOU are going to be just FINE!
One of my cats, Oscar, used to ambush me on the stairs; he would rush my ankles and bite them and bat at them (his previous caretaker had him declawed). Maybe you should have named the kitty Cato...
Guy Smiley...I am sorry you had a rough weekend and start to this week.

Super Dark Guy...I applaud you.

Ya know I am closer then sl...I actually could take on the SCQ!!!!

Maybe SDG could "help" BDS out and I could "help" the SCQ. We would both have some pent up aggression to release...LOL.

I have been thinking this week was a bad one, but now I am ready to swing back into the normal "LIFE IS GOOD" mode that I had gotten used to.

Too many triggers, too close together = ROUGH week.

You ARE a great dad...putting your children first...AMAZING!
Fresh trigger as I drove to pick up kids and realized that the SCQ lied to our daycare provider and the kids as well. When the SCQ picked up the kids on Friday, she told all of them that she still didn't know where they were going. Then, of course, she didn't tell our provider where they had been when she dropped them off again (our provider is chatty and wants to know the details about our trips)--our provider had to get the details from DD3.

"If what you're doing is so appropriate, why do you have to lie about it?" "Wow, you're so much better off now. You must really enjoy talking to your friends about your new life."

Venting. Trying to get this chit out of my system so I can enjoy my kids. And FSK.
I had a whole paragraph written and DS erased in one key stroke. I still don't know what he did.

What I was going to tell you is that you said somewhere that you prefer words to physical action so venting here may be your best outlet for your anger. I've been working the speed bag lately when I'm at mom's and that seems to be the most theraputic for me.

I've pretty much gotten over STBX, but her parenting skills and basic abandonment of DS still anger me from time to time.

So if venting gets the job done and cussing works even better, then email me so you don't have to hold anything back. I'll come up with a rating system and judge you based on profanity, humor, cleverness, intensity, and maybe even a free style catogory.

Down the road we can have an awards ceremony.

Tell the cat I said 00110100111010110010101010

Later
Funny how they still need to hide their "HAPPINESS" from the world, huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
The continued lying (and not just to me) must mean something. Maybe only that she's a typical WS. If she really felt that she were doing the right thing, why wouldn't she be able to tell the truth about it? Continuing Fog, right?

I still have urges to Do Something, but they are less significant and easier to overcome. Urges to try to educate her (find the 'this is what divorce will do to our kids' literature and send it to her), urges to punish the SCQ ("You think that you are a good mother. Does a good mother do XXX? Does a good mother do YYY?" "What lessons do you hope our children will take from your recent actions?" "Explain to me what you're doing that makes you a good role model for our children."), urges to set the record straight for my kids ("This is not my fault. Your mother is hurting all of us because she wants to be with OM, who is a very bad man."), urges to get other people to help (I have communicated with ILs but not with OM's parents--hmm, maybe if I talked with them and showed them what a good guy I am. . . .), urges to get back some control (start dating, buy expensive things).

For me, these urges follow triggers. I am far enough along that I recognize that these are urges are not constructive to my purpose, so I acknowledge the urge and what it means and then discard it. I will not do any of these things, but the urge is there anyway. I think that these are natural, but if you're not aware of what's happening, they can take you places you don't really need to go. Are you listening, Rookie Bees?

I think it was Xetta who asked what the hardest part of Plan B is. For me, it's dealing with getting triggered.
Amen to ALL that sd.

I don't even know that the urges follow a particular trigger. I seem to just randomly have them. like a thought of some great little nugget that I could just leave on the ILs answering machine. ("Don't ask, don't tell. How's that working for you?" click.) Sort of like drive-by messaging.

And we all remember jim's proposed ho-bombing. There's always that.

And all the other little schemes that seem to meander through my mind as I'm driving or doing some mindless task. (mindless times are not good; I seem to self-trigger)

Because of course! we all know how we can DO something to change this unbelieveable situation we are in. Logic has failed, so what does that leave us with? Ideas that are equally as ridiculous as WS's rationalizations.

I wish I could stop that kind of ideation...as you said, we'd never do these things, so why do the urges come anyway? Honestly, it only adds to our frustration, don't you think?
(((SD))))

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hear you...sometimes I still feel like a Rookie...right now I'm trying to decide to call STBX about this weekend and next! Need to find out if he's taking the kids...really ahrd decision to make for me...
The SCQ just called me. I let it roll over to the machine, and she left a message saying she couldn't find her car keys and needs to take DS7 to school tomorrow morning, and could I bring her another set. A few minutes later she texted my cell phone with the same message.

I looked, and there aren't any spare car keys in the drawer where they would be. The only one I have is the one on my key ring. I think that this means she took whatever spare keys there were when she moved.

Super Dark Guy thinks that maybe it's an attempt to break Plan B and that we should ignore the whole thing. Guy Smiley thinks maybe we should take the keys over in the morning.
Super Dark Guy--
Here is a Plan B suggestion that is also civil. As I understand it, she has CHOSEN to leave you and any help you could offer her. Furthermore, it would seem that not only has she lost her original set of keys, but she also took the spares when she moved out and has lost THEM. However, at the same time, DS7 has to be taken to school in the morning. I suggest that you make a copy of the key on your key ring (so that you're not giving her YOUR key)...and I suggest that you agree to "come to the parental rescue" and take DS7 to school. Document that she was unable to get her child to school and that you volunteered to MAKE THE TIME to be responsible and get him there. Then, when you pick up DS7 in the morning, leave the copy of the key so she doesn't have to rekey the car (expensive) and so you look like a civil, cooperative parent.

I believe that's in the spirit of Plan B (caring for the child, not for the WS), and I believe it also shows the court that you have the ability to be civil and cooperative.



CJ

P.S. That means, you could reply "I am able to take DS7 to school...will plan to be there at Xam to drive him. Please leave a VM if you find your keys" and that's all. DO NOT TELL HER YOU ARE COPYING THE KEY. Just give it to her when you pick up DS7 and say, "I found this spare..."
Thanks, CJ.
Good Morning! I hope that you are well today! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Hi, Rin

Thanks. I'm good so far. I slept well (but not enough) last night and survived dropping the key off. The SCQ was remarkably unappreciative, but maybe that's because I was very cool about giving her the key.

I wonder whether it even crossed her mind that "she has a lot of nerve calling me for my help after what she did Memorial Day weekend." Waywards are just bizarre.
Selfish entitlement. I don't think anything crosses their minds until they exit the fog, IF they ever exit the fog.
That very entitlement is why I suggesting TAKING THE CHILD TO SCHOOL rather than just dropping off a key. If you drop off a key, her response is something like, "What took you so long getting here? We're going to be late now." It is NOT"Wow, thank you so much for helping me out of that jam! Especially after I treated you like a jerk!" That's because if a WS was someone who could accept personal responsibility, they would also be able to admit their mistakes and end their affair. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

OTOH, if you take the child to school, YOU look like the responsible parent who can care for the child...WS looks like the irresponsible parent who can't even care for themselves...AND if you offer a copy of the key, then you look like someone who CAN BE civil and cooperative (to court and GAL), whereas the WS looks like someone who is not able to be civil after the treatment on the holiday weekend.



--CJ
QUOTE: "It is NOT"Wow, thank you so much for helping me out of that jam! Especially after I treated you like a jerk!" That's because if a WS was someone who could accept personal responsibility, they would also be able to admit their mistakes and end their affair. "

Amen faithful!
It was a great distinction, CJ, and one I applied carefully. I didn't turn over the key until it was established that I would take DS7 to school. I don't think I was a jerk about it--the only thing I said during the exchange was "Is he ready?"

I had forgotten that I had two keys to that car, so there may not have been another spare. It worked out well, because I was able to just hand over the extra key.

The whole Wayward-Fogged-State-of-Mind thing continues to amaze. It's like the Memorial Day weekend trip didn't even happen. Because of her actions then, I seriously considered not replying to her call last night and letting her face the consequences of her decisions. If she has any recognition of that, I can't see it. Does she think I don't know what happened that weekend? Does she just not care? I think the answer is that she has rationalized to herself what she did is okay and is excluding any other points-of-view, but it's still kind of astounding to witness. I honestly find it interesting enough that I would like to question waywards on it, but it would be difficult to do without being judgmental.

I would love to be able to look inside a wayward's head, even if it was just for the "Ewww. . . gross" perspective.
Hey SD!

Glad to hear you got through your "Keymaster" and "Gatekeeper" adventure. I think when this is done I will start to look for a Gatekeeper that looks like Sigourney Weaver. I could deal with that.

Quote
Does she just not care?

Nope.

Quote
I think the answer is that she has rationalized to herself what she did is okay and is excluding any other points-of-view

Yup.

How are you and the kids doing? Disneyland must have been fun with kids that age. DD19 wants to go there when we go to the Big Bob's MB bash.

Quote
I would love to be able to look inside a wayward's head, even if it was just for the "Ewww. . . gross" perspective.


I think a tour of a waywards brain would basically be a porn version of Dumb and Dumber.
Disneyland with the kids was very cool, if somewhat challenging as a lone parent. There was a bit of the competition thing, and DS7 was aware that the presence of DD3 was going to affect what rides we could do. Dealing with meals and bathroom breaks was a handful.

DS7 would have liked to go a bit more intense with the roller coasters, but the junior one in Mickey's Toon Town was good enough, and DD3 really liked it. It was her first time on a roller coaster, and she wasn't sure she wanted to go, but her response when the ride stopped was "Are we going to do that again? That was so cool."

And DD3 wanted to meet the Disney princesses, so we stood in line so that she could have her picture taken with Sleeping Beauty, Belle, and Mulan. Very cute, but her saying she wanted to meet the princesses was even cuter and reminds me of W and how she must have been as a little girl. DS7 wasn't interested in this, but I sat him down with a book, and he was fine. DD3 ran out of gas and conked out on my shoulder before the fireworks, but neither of the kids were that excited about fireworks anyway (unlike me).

Saturday was great, too, once we got out of the freeway traffic, between birthday parties, time at the park, and watching Mulan for the first time. The Sunday transfer was non-triggering. Afterwards, I went for a long beach walk. My vision is still intact, no thanks to all the naked men I passed.

The kids seem to be doing fine, although they continue to talk more about wanting their Mom to come home. They know that I miss them when I'm not with them. We have "family meetings" every couple of weeks, and one of the standing agenda items is Opinions. At the past three meetings, both of their opinions have been that they want Mommy to come home (no prompting from me). I think making it okay for them to talk about this is good, and maybe it will make it safer for them to bring it up with the SCQ.
Good Job SD!

You're doing one he11 of job keeping the kids best interest at mind and appropriately talking to them about the sitch.

Keep it up. You're gonna be fine
Wow SD! Wow!

Family meeting?! Most excellent!

I am also very impressed w/grown men who stand in line with their DD's to see the Princesses!

You are doing great with them

Glad your eyes are OK! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
VERY IMPRESSIVE SD!

LMAO...Bugs...back off, YOU'RE MARRIED! Oopps! I forgot I am too...LMAO...

Oh, Well! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> SD, you're the bomb and we all know it, I'm wishing you the best that RSCQ (retarted) comes to her senses...if not I have a size 4 shoe 4 her! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Great for you.......In the end you will know and someday your children will know that you stood tall and firm and fought the good fight regardless of how this turns out.
Awesome job SD! You are a terrific dad!

Quote
I am also very impressed w/grown men who stand in line with their DD's to see the Princesses!

Actually it will be DD19 waiting in line for me to meet Princess Jasmine.
Chris, You Dirty Dog You! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Today was career day for my son's 2nd grade class, and I had volunteered early on to be available to come in and talk about science. So I'm scheduled to be in a room with two other parents and give a 5-7 minute talk about what we do. I'm an organic chemist, so I prepare my spiel about what chemistry is and what molecules are and what we try to do with molecules where I work, and I bring a labcoat and safety glasses and some cool glassware to show the kids and even some plastic vials to give out.

I get into the room late, of course, so I didn't get to meet with the other parents before we started. Naturally, no one wants to come to career day and be the totally boring one, so I immediately sized up the other parents (makes me think of Letterman and Stupid Pet Tricks--This is not a competition, ladies and gentlemen, please, no wagering). The mom who was a dentist was just finishing up, and the other two guys were in suits, and I thought "Lawyers" and breathed a sigh of relief, because even if I suck I can keep up with lawyers (current readers excepted, of course). So the two guys walk up to the front of the class, give their names, and say "We work for the FBI."

D'oh! I have to go on after FBI agents? You might as well put me up after a San Diego Padre. They brought a bulletproof vest for the kids to try on. Sheesh.

It went really well, though. The kids were sufficiently impressed by cool glassware and talk of explosions that I don't think my son was humiliated. Fun stuff.
It's too bad your WW wasn't there so she could show them what a homewrecker does for a living.
oooooohhhhhhhh!!

Good one Jim.

SD, If you're gonna follow the FBI you gotta mention explosions.

Good Job!
Quote
oooooohhhhhhhh!!

Good one Jim.

SD, If you're gonna follow the FBI you gotta mention explosions.

Good Job!

Don't talk about exlposions too much in front of them. They might start surveilling you.
Oh, you can mention explosions, you just can't say

BOMB!!

[email]d@mn[/email], now they're watching me!
they have been watching you
DOH!!
Quote
Don't talk about exlposions too much in front of them. They might start surveilling you.

Hey, is that what that bracelet they gave me was all about?
Next time you're at the park, slip it on a dog and run.
I gave it to DD3, seeing as how it was pretty and blue (and said something inspirational about the FBI).

Speaking of DD3, as she was going to sleep tonight she told me that she when she gets bigger she wants to fix roofs. "Like you, dad"--noting some lights in the bathroom that I had replaced. She went on to describe in great detail the kind of cranes that lift workmen up to fix phone lines and stuff and that that's what she would use to get on the roof. Then she would have a second kind of crane that would lift the wood up to the roof and set it down so that she could fix the roof.

I absolutely adore my children. Can you tell?
Guy Smiley, you so totally ROCK, dude!

You are awesome. Career day, eh. I wish I had a parent that came in for career day. I'm impressed.

Yeah, the FBI is watching you now!

Beau, I think they've had a line on you since you popped out of the womb. Some people are suspicious from day one...I'm sure they are already looking at Chrisner, due to your plans to take over the world, oh, um, I mean 'visit' with him...

Gonna get cleaned up and hit the beach, y'all, catch ya later...
Good Morning, just dropping in...wanted to be part of the trouble...

I'm really a camo girl, I like the print I guess, can I be the one hiding in the bushes?

SD, you have to LOVE those moments when your kids "think" big...it's so awesome...hold tight to that special feeling! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I will try to get you one of the ATF tee shirts that says:

Big yellow ATF on the front.

On the back:

Alcohol
Tobacco
Firearms

Who's bringing the chips.

Sounds like a Cajun Party!!
You mean POKER CHIPS?
I'm feeling lots of anger this morning. Maybe I'm more aware of my Anger Bank due to the Plan FUs last week, or maybe I'm just at that particular dip in the roller coaster.

The weekend was good. The SCQ had the kids Friday and Saturday, so I was flying solo on Saturday. It was a beautiful day here, and I did some shopping, some woodwork, and took a beach walk. Sunday I got the kids back (the transfer was uneventful--I didn't even look at the SCQ), and the kids and I had a pretty good day. Lots of playtime (another beautiful day).


The kids told me they spent the whole day at the pool on Saturday and then later that OM and his kids had been there. I heard this morning when I dropped DD3 off at daycare that they went to the county fair Friday night and that OM and his kids were there, so I assume that OM and kids spent the night Friday. I don't know for sure, and I don't want to ask the kids.

DS7 had a homework project that was mostly complete, but he didn't start working on the last part of it until 7:30 or so. I reminded him several times during the day but didn't make him start until then. He got frustrated quickly and wound up calling the SCQ (for help, I think. It's his homework, and I won't do it for him, and he doesn't respond well to my attempts to help him, so I will let him struggle for a while), who didn't answer at her apartment or her cell. DS7 was disappointed by this. With a little extra help from me, he finished his homework and didn't have to stay up all night doing it.

As I'm typing this, I get a call on my cell phone from the SCQ, which I ignore. I started to listen to the voice mail, and it starts off that she just got the message from DS7, and then it sounded like she was going to hassle me about why was he still working on his homework at 8:00 bla bla bla, so I deleted it without listening to the bulk.

I want her to hurt right now. To feel the pain of what she's doing. I have lots of things I want to say to her. An email like

"Don't blame me for you not being there when your son wanted to talk to you."

But as I type this, I realize that she already feels the pain (even if she doesn't know that's what it is), and that's probably why she lashed out at me in the VM. I don't know--maybe that's wishful thinking.

I'm tired.
In my case, SD, it's more awareness of my anger...

And the fact that I can be angry and am okay with that...I can allow myself to work through that...to calm myself down...

To be with my emotions...I can remember at one point that I was uncomfortable with that b/c I was a CA...keep the peace, bla, bla, bla..

You're doing fine...

And, aren't you the one that told me to take the higher ground, not matter how hard it is? I understand the need to write, but who's it really going to hurt?

You're going to be fine! ANd she will realize her choices...SOMEDAY...but Not today! Still blaming you...fog!

it's cool...be mad...protect your love...and safeguard yourself...you are reacting to your anger right now...been there, done that...chose to act and not react...

That's a lot of effort on your part, well, i don't know, but it was for me!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You Can DO THIS!
Your anger is understandable. Ouch, ouch, ouch...triggers from the left, triggers from the right. Super Dark Guy's Kevlar cape is not impenetrable.

When you say tired, do you mean physically or emotionally? I guess either way, it's no good, and doesn't do your mood any favors.

And of course she's going to lay it on about letting the homework go until the last minute. She never learned about consequences or responsibilities, so why would she have any desire for DS to learn those lessons? IMO, you are doing him a favor by letting him sweat a little. My 11yo is finally getting it after a few too many late nights just "finishing up."

You do sound a little down. I wish I could help.
Does This Help
That did help, BC. Funny stuff.

Thanks for the thoughts. Venting it out here is enough, I think. I'm not going to send any repsonse, or if I do I will text her "missed VM, pls send email." There was a significant delay between the call and when my phone signalled that I had VM, so she may have left a lengthy message, and it might have had more in it than homework hassles. Email gets screened, but the SCQ doesn't know that.

I guess the other thing I'm struggling with is being okay with OM being around my kids. It's not okay, and I'm not okay with it, but there isn't anything productive I can do about it. Obsessing over it isn't going to make it any better. For example, whenever the kids say something I haven't heard them say before, there's a little flash of "Did they learn that from him?" I'm working on this, though. I know that I'm a better parent than the SCQ can hope to be, and I know that my kids love and respect me.

Sis, I'm tired emotionally and physically. Guy Smiley wants to see signs that my Plan B is working, but I don't. Super Dark Guy knows that we can't know what's going on over on the other side. People around me hate to see me in pain but all agree that I'm doing way better than I was even a few months ago. I intend to keep doing my Plan B, because even as it is my life is pretty good. It's not like I have anything better to do.

I think this is just a triggery dip in the roller coaster ride, so I am already looking forward to the trip back up. Starting Wednesday, I have the kids for 5 straight days, off two days, back with me here two days, and then we go on vacation for 9 days. The vacation will be very very good for me and the kids. DD3 turns 4 on Friday, and I'm planning a small party with neighborhood kids for her. Plus, we'll do something for Father's Day.

Thanks for listening!
So, 8 hours later, I sent the "missed VM, pls send email" text message, and within a minute she calls back. I didn't answer, of course, but she left another VM, and I listened to a bit more of it this time. I was wondering whether there was something else on the first one (could have been a few things), but it seems that all she wanted to talk about was the homework thing.

Didn't understand why homework wasn't started until 8. . . thought that we could handle it, but apparently not. . . she waited until 7:30 and then figured we had it covered but <click>. I'd heard enough.

So, she was defending herself for not being able to talk to her son and presumably telling some lie about when she stopped checking the phone. The homework was completed and turned in without issue, and she would have known this when she got my TM, but she calls back immediately to hassle me about it. I read this as the SCQ feeling guilty for not being available to her children and then lashing out at me in response.

That's what it feels like to me, anyway.
SD,

I have a stupid question. What would she do if she did not have you to blame for absolutely Everything on the planet?

I mean, really! I expect to read the newspaper tomorrow with the headline "SD to Blame For Global Warming, Terrorism in the Middle East, and Bird Flu"
Well, Everybody knows that Global Warming is a left wing conspiracy, Terrorism in the Middle East is a right wing conspiracy, and bird flu is a...ughhhhh....veterinarian conspiracy?

OR WAS IT FSK?

now it's starting to make since.

So just what HAVE you and your cat been up to MR SD?

Huh, didn't think we'd figure it out didya
Maybe that's why the FBI was at school the other day.

[email]D@MN!![/email] How could we have been so STUPID!!

I'm reporting this

I'm writing a letter to the President first thing in the morning.
Here's today's email from the SCQ:

"DD3 had a rash yesterday under her arms where her shirt is always next to her. Probably due to whatever the laundry product that you used that caused this last time. Hadn't seen the long sleeve blue cat shirt in awhile so maybe that shirt didn't get rewashed after the last time this happened with her. If that shirt was not missed when you rewashed her clothes after the last time you should look at your laundry products again and rewash her clothes in something less irritating to her.

Did you get my VM that I left the second time? I will continue to call you when I feel it is a better way to communicate with you about kids issues. I will not do everything thru email and text messages. Going back and forth with emails doesn't work for everything when we could settle it in 5 minutes."

I don't think I even told you guys about the rash thing. I think I decided it was probably the dryer sheets (and stopped using thme), but neither my mom nor I could ever find the rash on DD3, nor was it reported by our daycare provider. It's clear that my parenting skills are deficient in what's really important.

So many possible responses to that email, but I will send nothing.

No sign of the fog letting up.

At what point does it go from heroic to pathetic that I'm still holding out hope for my marriage?
Did you have a pre determined time line for Plan B?
Dear Super Dark Guy,

Your hero, Guy Smiley, is doing his best to smile through life whilst being volleyed left and right with emotional arrows from the WW. We need you to swoop in and save the day! Please cover Guy Smiley with your wayward resistant Kevlar vest, and reflect her hurtful message back at her. Please take Guy Smiley deeper into the cave of darkness so his defenses are impenetrable. Please give him your Super Hero Glasses--the ones that give him x-ray vision so he can see through the fake exterior that "looks okay" to the interior that is rotting and ugly. Please give him your "Reflecto-Ray" so that he can "reflect back" all the hurtful things she tries to hurl his way. Please give him the "Pax-o-tron" so he can zap his home and his family with peace and tranquility. Please give him your "Turdometer" which measures the turdiness in a person--so he can see that the words she says are turdy...and the words he says are gentle and well-intentioned.

Super Dark Guy...WE NEED YOU!!!

Your super midget friend (and Guy Smiley's mama bee),



CJ
So, not only is SCQ THE authority on sippy cups, but now laundry as well...hmmm.

So, SDG, how are you even managing to function all on your own? I mean, from what I can tell, you must be the stupidest man on the planet...whatever will happen to your children!!

Sarcasm rant over!

An amazing dad...yet treated like an idiot...ignore that lame e-mail and stay dark...and remember how many of us think you rock!
Okay, guys. Thanks for the boost, CJ. And Bugs and IHC, you're right--I must be some kind of moron. It's a wonder my kids are still alive. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I guess the emails and VMs are getting to me, because last night and today I felt anxious and depressed. When I'm feeling better, maybe I'll make a joke about other uses for the X-ray glasses.

BC, no pre-determined time table. When I started, it was three months and check, so I did that. I feel like I'm still doing that--going a while and checking--but I don't know what I'm checking for any more. Is it whether or not I can keep doing this? Because I can. I'm not suffering any permanent damage or anything. Is it looking for signs from the SCQ? Because I don't know what they are.

I think maybe it's time for an appt with Jennifer and a pep talk.
It's been six months in Plan B. Now just might be a good time to get with Jennifer and take some inventory. I'm sure she'll tell you to give it another 6 months if you have it in you.

I think you're gonna need a pretty good pep talk to last that long.

Supporting you which ever direction you chose.

Now I feel bad for exposing you to the government.

Sorry man
No worries, BC. They haven't found me yet, but I hear that FSK is on the top ten most wanted list. I may rat her out just to get some relief from the attacks. And because I'm tired of trying to figure out whether 11000101100 means "feed me" or "clean the litter box."
HI, Guy SMiley...

Droppin in on you...just think of me popping out of the cake sort to speak...

The message is "love me, I want to play!" If the second number one was a zero then it's clean the litter box! Come On mAn! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Super DUPERdark Guy,

I hope you don't mind, but this comment from SCQ's email really bothered me:
Quote
I will continue to call you when I feel it is a better way to communicate with you about kids issues. I will not do everything thru email and text messages. Going back and forth with emails doesn't work for everything when we could settle it in 5 minutes.

Can I be honest with you? I don't think she has experienced a truly dark SDguy-moving-on kind of Plan B. I've reviewed your thread here all the way back to the beginning, and you know what I'm seeing? You say that you're in Plan B, but you two have contact every couple of days!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

May I suggest something? I think your WW is getting sort of a reverse EN met. It's a theory I have. Some EN's are like Dr. Harley describes...for positive stuff: the EN for admiration or affection, for example, is when one spouse needs and/or seeks out positive stuff from the other spouse. My theory is a reverse EN...a photo-negative if you will. This is when a WS builds up blame, anger, irritation, etc. with the OP, but they don't want to vent it at the OP so the seek out SOME KIND OF CONTACT with the BS so they can nitpick and find some little thing to vent the blame, anger, etc. at. It's a negative EN--the need to vent blame or anger at someone else, so that the A can continue without having to bear the weight of that venting.

I strongly suspect that something like this is happening with your WW. Life could not possibly be "all roses" with OM and Turdland. They are now entering the phase where they have to deal with bills, alimony, CS, step-kids, ex-spouses...and it has GOT to bring a lot of stress to their supposed "love story." So what does your WW do? Rather than realize that it's the OM that she's mad at, she seeks out some sort of contact with YOU and then finds some dumb little nitpicky thing to vent anger at YOU!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> YOU don't clean the sippy cups correctly!!! YOU don't use the "right" laundry detergent!!! In fact, YOU are the cause of all her issues right now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

SDguy, this is why we suggest NO CONTACT in Plan B. If your WW had been doing all this nitpicky complaining to ... oh, let's say me as your intermediary ... I would have returned her emails to her without every notifying you and said, "Are you kidding? Emails like this are unnecessary. He will clean the sippy cups as he determines is appropriate in his household." YOU would have never had the heartache and emotional rollercoaster of the whole sippy cup episode, and SHE would have no one to vent her blame at. She would LB with the OM and the A would be breaking up!!

SDguy--you NEED to get an intermediary. You NEED to go minimum of one month with no contact...and I mean NONE! Let her experience the consequences of her choice. That includes losing car keys...and laundry detergent emergencies! Do not give her access to your heart. Guard your heart from the pick-pick-pick damage that a WS can do, and DO NOT CONTACT HER. Period. In any way. EVER. Let her go through your intermediary or in the event of dire (blood or fire) emergency, CALL YOUR INTERMEDIARY.

You need this for YOU, SDguy. She is going to be royally pissed, because she's losing her reverse EN, but you need it for you. If you have no intermediary, contact me via the email addy in my signature, and I'll help ya find one.

Your mama bee,



CJ
I agree with CJ on the reverse EN theory. It gives them more reason to 'dislike you' which in turn keeps them away. She has to prove to herself again and again that she made the right decision and she is reinforcing it with her negative attitude towards you. Justifying her actions.

I am no plan B expert AT ALL, but it seems that if you have gone as far as you have with almost no contact, maybe you should just go the distance, and do the full blown plan B, like CJ suggested.

That being said, you are a great dad, and a good man. You are doing what is best for your family. And you should be proud of yourself! Keep it up for you and your kids!
oooooh, CJ! That was good! sdguy, I am by NO means good at Plan B. Right now I feel I HAVE to give in a little and email back and forth for court purposes.

I was amazed when I grabbed a one page yearly calender and color coded (yes, I'm anal) my contact with WH during Plan B. Almost EVERY week! No wonder he didn't "get it".

I don't know a way around it right now with court looming so soon. It's just too big a risk.

If you can, DO IT. I think CJ is right, it's reverse-EN. Continuing to blame YOU for her unhappiness. That's a crock, show her it's a crock.
Guy Smiley, CJ has a good point.

After our last false recovery, I went fully back to my intermediary with PWC. Completely cut him loose and had no contact directly with him. Much needed time for PWC to think about his world, without me in it at all. I think this may serve YOU very well. I will gladly throw my name in there if you are in dire need.

SCQ's reaction to you is seemingly a control issue. You duck out on her and she will have no further control, and will be forced fully into her choices, without anyone to boo hoo to, or to place blame on. Put her on ignore and get an intermediary!

She can complain to OM about all of these silly interactions with you, and place the blame for all of THEIR problems on YOU, because you are available to take the fall. If you cut her off, she will be left holding the bag. Even if this does not bring her back, you will be able to fully disengage. You need that; you need to be eating and laughing and loving. Every day that you go without is one day too many. This will allow you to fully let SCQ go. Give her choices back to her, and walk on by. Her choices, and you DON'T have to live with them...
I've been trying to tell this to SDGuy for some time. He is NOT in plan B. In fact, he even got her his spare set of car keys. I'm not trying to nit-pick on you, SD, but CJ is completely right. Your WW still has CONTROL over you. Once she feels that she has lost ALL control over you, she will seek to exert her control on OM. This will not go over well because he is running from his own wife because he doesn't want to have to answer to her. I'm sure there are many intermediaries available that would be willing to help you. Don't be afraid to ask for their help.
Guy, as I said, I'll throw my hat into the ring for intermediary...
Thanks for the great input. I agree that my Plan B is not as dark as it might be. I also agree that the recent sniping contact from the SCQ are about her not being happy about her situation. I don't know that she consciously blames me, but think that I am a convenient target to lash out at (not that it matters, really--it's FogChit however you think about it).

In terms of a Yeah-buttal, we have two small children and share custody 50:50. The schedule goes 2 days, 2 days, 2 days, 1 day, 2 days, 2 days, 4 days, 3 days. The only direct exchange is on Sundays, but still, with that much back and forth, it's just not realistic to think that there will be No Contact (this directly from Jennifer).

There is also legal stuff going on, where I have reached better deals negotiating with her than doing the dark Plan B thing of just letting the lawyers hash it out. The difference in support is something like $1000/month and thus worth doing in my estimation. I have to be a bit careful--until the agreement is signed and with the court, she can change her mind. This should all be signed off in about a week and a half, though.

I think there hasn't been as much contact as it seems, too--there have been plenty of 7-10 day stretches where there has been no contact at all, but clearly there could be less contact, and she probably does still feel like she has control. I have an intermediary for email, but the SCQ does not know that the emails are screened. Do you think I should tell her about the intermediary? That would make the filtering process easier, I think, and remove the perception of control.

So, I've seen a lot of benefit from Plan B and know that I could get more if I go darker. I still want to discuss it with Jennifer, but maybe I will resend the Plan B letter and drop the curtain even more once the paperwork is signed off with the court--maybe when I get back from vacation at the end of the month.

Thanks again for the good advice (BC, CJ, Jim, Fox), offers for intermediary duty (SL), and kind words (Sadmo, Rin, Sis).

I'm feeling much better today.
Knock, Knock.

Where are you?
Hmmmm, well I see Chris has responded to my Bat Signal! So where's Super Dark Guy?
Your response should be that of super hero Larry Boy (from veggie tales)

I AM THAT HERO....

Ya know, every time you "arrive" to MB.
Okay...he's taken this "Super Dark Guy" thing a BIT too seriously....

The suggestion was to go a bit darkER...not go into a black hole.
Sorry, guys. Busy weekend, and I'm still tired. Friday was DD4's birthday, so when I picked up the kids Friday night, we went out for dinner. DD4 got to choose, so it was a delicious meal at the International House of Pancakes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Surviving making the career day presentation after the FBI agents obviously went to my head, so on Saturday I had a birthday party for DD4. We only invited three little girls from the neighborhood (our daycare provider had one for her on Friday, too), but, still--single dad has birthday party for 4-year old girls. I had activities. I made gift bags. I made cupcakes, and the adults raved about them. First, they said that they were impressed I had made cupcakes, but then after they tried them they seriously complimented them and asked about the recipe. I am not making this up. Getting ready for the party (house-cleaning) and trying to keep DS7 from imploding under the pressure of not being the center of attention led to serious exhaustion Saturday night.

After a late start on Sunday we went to Legoland and had a pretty good time, but tiring. When we got back "we" started packing for them to go beach-camping with our daycare provider (T), an incredibly nice lady who has basically become extended family. The packing exercise extended into Monday morning, but I got them dropped off and had a productive day at work. Today I had jury duty but didn't get a case.

So, it was five straight days with the kids for me, followed by the two days camping with T. Then they were to come back to me for Wednesday and Thursday, and then we leave for the Outer Banks for over a week. This means that the SCQ would have gone something like 17 days without seeing the kids. And she didn't complain or ask for additional time. But my son did. He told me that his heart drooped when she dropped him off and he realized how long it would be (and then my heart drooped). At his request, I reached out to the SCQ and asked her if she wanted some additional time, so she's picking the kids up Wednesday (FSK says ;hp[p[) and keeping them overnight. Super Dark Guy isn't real happy about this, but Guy Smiley is pretty sure this was the right thing to do. The kids aren't in Plan B.

Emotions bouncing around--from angry to indifferent to her returning to confident that she will want to come back some day.

Thanks for checking in! I think I'm doing pretty well.
I would have chosen IHOP too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
A new one: Super Daddy Guy.

He's the one who bakes cupcakes and throws birthday parties for 4yo girls AND takes them to Legoland AND takes the kids camping.

Glad you checked in. And once again, this one hit me between the eyes:
Quote
Emotions bouncing around--from angry to indifferent to her returning to confident that she will want to come back some day.
I hear ya.
Good Gugamooga! You are Super Dad! Incredible! I bow to you...
Thanks!

Sis, I was trying to get caught up on your thread and saw where you had the urge to DO something like call WH. I fight that one, right down to the urge to call the SCQ and try to reason with her. She's also a very passive person, so I was interested in what Mulan had to say. I'm still a couple of pages behind, though.
Glad to see you back, amigo. Sounds like you did great with the birthday party. Don't doubt for a minute that you can raise your children by yourself. It isn't easy as a couple (believe me, teenagers are tough!), let alone when you are single. But it can be done, and done well. You're a great dad, don't let anyone tell you different. The proof will be in the amazing people your children become. Day to day can be rough, remember that this isn't forever. They will continue to learn and grow, just as you will.
Making cupcakes? I thought that was what the bakery was for. Dude, you have to be careful; you are embarrassing the rest of us dads here.

Hmmmmm…..impressing the women by baking cupcakes…..BRILLIANT!!
Heh. That's how scattered I was. I don't think it even occur to me to *buy* the cupcakes.
Another frantic day trying to finish up stuff at work and now packing because we leave on vacation tomorrow. No time to post. Maybe from the beach. The other one.

Take care.
Have a wonderful time, guy! Hope you get a well deserved break from the monotony of Plan B, and let your mind be at ease for a week.
ENJOY!!!!
sdguy, how u b? Hope you are having a great time on vacation! Post when you can.

Fox
Hey, Fox

The vacation is great. I've been very busy doing, um, well, not much at all. Sleep late. Wander down to the beach with the kids. Eat. Read. Take the kayak out and see if we can get out amongst the dolphins. Drink. Eat some more. Watch my kids play with their cousins and aunts and uncles and grandparents. Going multiple hours at a time without thinking about my marriage.

I overheard my son talking on the cell phone with the SCQ the other night, and he was questioning her about where she was and who she was with. It was clear that she was being elusive with her answers. DD4 didn't want to talk to her--she said no when offered the phone. She told me a few minutes ago that she missed her and wished she was here, though. I told her I missed her, too.

I'm doing well at leaving all this stuff behind. If I post it here, I don't have to think about it anymore. No one is talking to me about it, although I have always been open about it.

I hope everyone is having a good week. It sounds like Chris is.
Having family there to help with the kids will help you get some much needed R&R. When I was there, I was with my son most of the time, so I didn't get as much me time, but I enjoyed it no less, just differently. I look forward to some time without my son, to just be silentlucidity, not mommy. I haven't had that in what is years at this point.

I hope you have a relaxing time.
Quote
Going multiple hours at a time without thinking about my marriage.

That was the best part of Plan B!!

Have a great vacation Amigo. Give me a call when you get home. I have a story to tell.
Stories can be emailed, too, y'know...and cc'd to others...y'know...
ummmm....yeah....what SL said. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Or is this one of those "guy" stories? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Fox
Hey, I know a guy you can CC.
Enquiring minds want to know.
Check your email Amigos. Now we know the rest of the story.
I'm back from North Carolina. The vacation was great--a week in a huge house right on the ocean surrounded by family. Twenty of us in a seven-bedroom house. For some, that would be a nightmare, but not for my family--we look forward to this all year long, and we had a great time. Time to read, sleep, play at the beach. Good food, good happy hours. The kids played with cousins practically nonstop. Very relaxing. Climbing to the top of the Currituck lighthouse with the kids was the most ambitious thing I did all week.

But

we've been doing this for over ten years, and this was the first time the SCQ wasn't there. By the end of the week, I think I was very aware of the wrongness of the whole siutation. Seeing the other married couples interacting happily together, watching my kids miss their mother, knowing that it should be different triggered some depression for me at the end of the week. I got behind on sleep, too.

Saturday was a travel day from ****** (2-hour drive followed by flying cross-country with the kids, who are, albeit, great travelers), which sucked even more energy out of me. It was a bit of a relief to take the kids back to the SCQ so that I could decompress yesterday, but I was again aware of the wrongness of their not being there last night.

I don't know where this puts me. Depressed still, but I hope this clears up within a day or so. I talked about another appointment with Jennifer but never did it; now I think I will. I feel a bit lost. I don't know what I want, I don't know how to think, I don't know what to do.

I'm all over the place--realizing that I miss my wife and desperately wanting something to happen one minute, wanting to chuck the whole thing and start dating the next, then back to knowing that the affair will fall apart if it's given enough time and feeling like I can do that. Maybe it's just the waiting I'm tired of. Maybe I'm feeling the need to DO SOMETHING again, like reach out to WW and see who she is or go to the online dating sites and look at the possibilities or, or, or . . . .

It's depressing to feel crappy on the heels of such a great vacation, but not unexpected, I guess, given the circumstances. A couple of good nights of sleep followed by a good block party on the 4th should help.
Sounds like you are building wonderful memories for your kids. Of course it would be depressing to be without your wife. It always is when you go somewhere and see happy families. I even thought about my ex when I went to the county fair this year. Everyone looks so happy together. I even skipped the woodworking exhibits that he used to love.

It's good to have you back.
hey guy not so smiley,

We missed you.

I, too, felt like you did, even though PWC was there; it's just a different pain. The loss of what we had, the mess that we are in. Yes, he's hear, so I'm not comparing the pain, surely not. I remember it quite well.

I think you need a couple of days to settle back in to your routine. You have done one of the things that you shared as a family, the trip to the beach, and the loss is amplified. Not very unusual, I would say.

Maybe it's time to talk to Jennifer again, get some perspective, feedback. You sound like you need some reassurances that what you feel right now is part of the whole thing, sort of 'normal' for this sitch.

((((sdguy)))))
Hey there...welcome back.

I am sorry to hear how you are feeling...I think it is normal, I know I still go through it sometimes.

When you are exhausted physically and emotionally is the hardest...you feel like you are too tired to keep trying.

So, like we all say to each other...just chill out and wait til you are feeling "normal" again before making any decisions.

You already know this, just wanted to remind you! You are a definite pillar of strength, no question about it...so I don't think I am saying anything you haven't already said to yourself.

Have a great 4th! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
IHC
Glad you are back, sd. I know those feelings so well...

Sucks, don't it?

Think about this, though...I ALWAYS feel let down after a vacation. Just tired, off schedule, out of a routine, piles of laundry, nothing more to look forward to....if that has ever held true for you, then you can only expect that under these circumstances, it's far, far worse.

So give yourself a break, and know you are out of sorts. This too shall pass.
Thanks for the viewpoints. I think you are right--the depression is to be expected and is a product of exhaustion and predictable feelings. I feel better this evening and think that tomorrow will be even better.

I did set up an appointment with Jennifer for this weekend.

And I have a new weapon in the arsenal against the FSK (only 25 or so new scratches since I got home)--a laserpointer. She runs after it, (FSK says 0c0vc cd `) climbs the walls, chatters--it's great. Now she's standing in front of me--sidehopping and arching her back. She's fierce, all right.
Who knew lasers could provide for hours of fun...I can play the same game with my kids...think about it!!!!!
Oh, my cats used to love the laser pointer, may two of them RIP. My last cat of the three, Jerry, is an outdoorsman; he comes in to eat and get some lovins, but likes to prowl and catch things, bring them home and leave them on the doorstep to show us his prize.
I'm finally past the bout of depression, but it lingered through Friday, which was a bit surprising (in length). I really hate that foggy cobwebs-in-the-head feeling, which is how most of the week was.

The weekend was much better. I was planning a quiet Friday evening but was invited to join the neighbors for dinner and a guys' poker game, which was a lot of fun. It seemed like they had ten or so different crazy wild-card games that I had to learn, but I held my own and was only down a dollar or so at the end of the night.

Saturday had a day to myself. Leisurely finished a book, watched some baseball, had a call with Jennifer (will post about that later), got a massage, did some woodworking. Nice day.

I got the kids back yesterday (uneventful transfer), and we went to see Ratatouille and then to the beach. The water here was actually warmer than it was at the Outer Banks (weird), and the surf was bigger, so the kids had a good time wave-jumping. Both of them agreed that it was a great day. ("Thanks for taking us to the beach, Dad." from DD4). Made dinner at home. Played with the kitten. Good stuff.

I checked in with my lawyer last week and found out that the custody/support agreements have been approved by the court and are in force now. The court-required status update was continued until mid-August (at which I think the disclosure stuff happens?). My lawyer knows that I don't want to rush anything, and I asked whether her lawyer was pushing, and he said no. So I guess I'll continue in my Plan B for a while.
Good to hear that the 'funk' has left you. Sounds like you had quite a eventful Saturday; a massage--I'm jealous.

You are doing great guy smiley, keep on keepin' on...
SD,

I just found your post which answered my question about how long you have been in your Plan B. Well, hats off to you brother because you've lasted a lot longer than I think that I can last. You have small children, which is of course an incentive (my only one is 25). I can certainly see how you feel up one day, down the next. Is there any indication that your WW's A is running its course??
I wish I knew, KG. It's another one of the frustrations about Plan B--you don't know what's happening on the other side. Sometimes that and the slow pace of Plan B get to be too much for the BS, and they stick their head out (i.e., fall off their plan B) to see what's going on. It happened to me a couple of months ago, when I took a phone call from the SCQ (my WW) and talked to her for a while. I heard some stuff that gave me some glimmers of hope, but then she turned around and took my kids on a vacation with the OM and his kids.

So she's still fogged. She's a VERY passive person (and stubborn, too), so I wonder whether she will ever be able to take the initiative to come home. I've said before that if I believed she was making sane, rational decisions about our marriage (some marriages shouldn't be saved, in my opinion), I would have given up long ago. Lord knows that would be easier. Her actions and words are prototypical WS, however, so I know that the affair will end the way all of the rest of them do. It's only a question of when and how long I can wait. Knowing what I know, I feel like I owe it to my children to hang out for as long as I can, which is a while longer.

To make it easier, set yourself a checkpoint. Say, three months. I'm going to do this for three months, then I'm going to do a status check. That's what I did, and at three months I felt much better and stronger. Now it's six months, and it's a drag and crazy and depressing and insane, but I know that I can keep doing it. My kids deserve better than what they're getting right now.

You're asking good questions. I'll try to keep an eye on your thread. Thanks for stopping by.
SD - not sure if you've been following along with my sitch but I would welcome some plan B advice as I am moving in that direction, albeit slowly.

Glad you enjoyed the vacation on my side of the states <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ya'll come back now, ya hear?
Depression came back around yesterday and whacked me upside the head. I feel somewhat better today. I met with my psychiatrist yesterday and adjusted my meds a bit. Depression sucks.

I still have to figure out the get-together on Saturday. Saturday is my day with the kids, but I think the get-together would be a drag for them. Our custody agreement requires that before getting alternate childcare that we offer it up to each other, so I sent her an email on Monday asking her whether she wants to keep them. No response yet. Sigh. I know, I know--I should have dealt with this sooner. Apply 2x4 here.

IHC, are you coming? You haven't RSVP'ed to Pep's thread yet.
Hi SD! i'm glad to hear that you are feeling better today and you are taking some great measures for self-care...

That's great to see!

I know that it can be a real drag waiting for God's plan to show itself to you, it has been a real drag for me...

I think that I'm starting to see that now, patients is so hard to have...until then we have guardian angels sent to us to watch over us and give us the strenght that we "think" we don't have...

Brighter days are coming...and YOU ARE doing such a wonderful job! keep up the great work! You are going to be just fine!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
SDG,

I really want to come, but I am helping out with a fundraising event on both Friday and Saturday. I was thinking of trying to come for an hour or two, but I am not sure that I can do it. The event is at 6pm both nights, so I would have to leave by 4. I may try to come still.

Or...maybe another event could be planned, one that would not be quite so rushed!

I really want to meet everyone...
How are your own fundraising efforts going, IHC?
Sdguy-
So did you talk to Jennifer? What did she say?

You are a good man. You should be proud of yourself.

I know how it feels to want to just 'give up' and start dating, but you have done a marvelous plan b. Your kids deserve it. And they are lucky that they have a man like you as their father:
someone who will not confuse them with the comings and goings of new 'dates'
Someone who cares about them, loves them
Someone who takes care of them
Someone who holds true to their values, even in the face of someone who does not.
You value family.

I take my hat off to you. You are doing a great job, and I just wanted to let you know. Depression does suck, I hope the meds are helping. I have my little thing I do when I get down. I walk my dogs, and will talk to my friends. Sometimes while I am walking my dogs. It helps me.

I hope you feel better!
Sadmo
Thanks very much, Sadmo. I am feeling better tonight.

I did talk with Jennifer, and it went well enough. Nothing earth-shattering (sigh). We talked some about the conversation I had with the SCQ a couple of months ago. Jennifer was most concerned that I love-busted (which I did, even if it was calm). She gave me credit for the kind, constructive things I said, too, but cautioned against the LBs.

We talked about Plan B being a marathon. That the SCQ is still foggy. That there's no reason to give up yet. I hinted at the "how long do I do this" question, which she wouldn't answer, of course (just like the "what are my chances" question). She could tell that I still have energy to keep going and said as much, and so there wasn't really much of discussion of giving up.

Regarding Plan B, the bits that she stressed were protecting myself from wayward behavior and protecting the SCQ from my reaction to that behavior (i.e., LBing). I tried to get at how important the third component (no longer meeting the SCQ's ENs and how important No Contact is). Jennifer didn't seem to think that I've been having too much contact and said that "if the SCQ comes back, it will be because of what the OM does, not what you do." I'm still trying to let that one sink in, because I think it's important.

I talked about my Anger Bank concept, and she seemed to agree with it. Of *course* you'll get angry, because wayward spouses are what they are and do what they do. The trick is to not let the Anger Bank fill up to the Plan FU point, and that's what Plan B is for--to extend the period. To buy yourself time and let the affair die.

She coached me on what to say next time the SCQ calls me: "SCQ, it's really good to hear your voice. And I would like nothing more than to talk with you about our family. That is my heart's desire, but it's just too painful under these circumstances, and I don't want to say anything to hurt you. Can you please send me an email? I have to hang up now."

Jennifer also told me it is worth reminding the SCQ when the opportunity presents itself "It doesn't have to be this way--I love you, I care about you, and I want us to be a family."

She agreed that additional conversations with the OMW are probably not helpful.

I think that about covers it.
I got the kids back yesterday, and we had to stop at the grocery store on the way home, so they're already a little antsy, so I project ahead to what's going to happen. We'll get inside the house, and there will be a competition to see who holds the kitten first and for how long and whether DS7 will try to take her away from DD4 and . . . . So before we get home I ask the kids what we should do about that. DS7 has the idea that they should alternate going first each day. DD4 likes the idea but adds that she should get to go first every night. I agree with DS7's idea but mandate that DD4 will go first. DS7 thinks that since he came up with the idea, he should get to go first. It teeters on the verge of a full-blown fit but backs down when I say that the alternative is that *I* be the first one to hold her every night.

Crisis averted. I have one load of groceries in the house when they start in. DS7 wants me to do some hitting (baseball) with him, while DD4 wants me to take her on a wagon ride. As I go back for another load of groceries and think that I still have to make dinner before the kids fall apart I realize "I don't want to live like this." Anger rush. It subsided and we had a good evening, but still.

I was thinking mail-order bride, but maybe I'll give that Vitaly guy's strategy a whirl.
Sdguy-
WOW! I know exactly what you are saying... I go through periods of feeling that way. It get overwhelming... and I think, "OMYGOSH!!!! I can't do this!" But I can, you can, it is just normal.

I know when my WH first left, I had so much anger towards him, that he would put me in a position to be a single mom. I never wanted it, never fantasized about it, never thought it would be me... I honestly would not have had kids if I knew that we were not going to last. Not that I do not love them dearly, and am not grateful for them. Just that this is not the way it was supposed to be. It took me about 6 months to get on an even keel with it. I was stressed, on edge, aggravated, and I would get stressed with my kids. I do not know what finally changed, I just accepted that this is how it is, and I have to make the best of it.

One word of advice... if you do try Vitaly's strategy, go for being a nuclear scientist, or something more eye catching than a rocket scientist. Oh, give a short rundown on your appearance, so the women will not have to ask. LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
SDG,

Quote
I don't want to live like this."


I KNOW this feeling. I love my children more than anything, but I do not want to do this alone any more. It has been a year, and I am ready for someone to share the load again.

But, I have already let go and moved on since OW is "with child". You still have some strength left...do not give up until you cannot go on anymore. Your children are worth it! And so is the real SCQ, and so are you!

I'm embarrassed to admit I actually have a "crush" on someone, but I think it is just a safe crush, in that I do not believe anything could actually happen. So, he is a SAFE crush for me.

But it has made me realize that my life is not over...

Finances...sigh...got a loan extension for my mortgage, so it will be current soon...they will just tack on 3 months to the end of the loan. that is no big deal since we are selling anyway.

Borrowed money from my mom...how embarrassing is that??? 35 years old..."mommy I need money!!!"

But, tax refund check should be here within 30 days and that will be the final push over the hill. I am also considering renting one of the rooms in my house out. I could share my room with my daughter again in order to help get ahead...

So, all in all it is looking up, but I am still not in the clear yet.

My meds have started working again and I feel calmer now, still having some anxiety (finance related) but it is not unbearable.


So, how's that for a thread jack?!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

PS: Decided I will come on Saturday..too much fun to pass on!
Can someone loan me an AHA moment? I think I'm in desperate need of one.

I want my family back. I can't think of anything I have ever wanted more than this, and it's something I have so little control over.

I've been fighting depression for the past two weeks. And I'm having trouble not thinking about the marriage. It's a chicken-egg thing for me now: am I depressed because I'm thinking about it too much, or am I thinking about it too much because I'm depressed? Or a combination? Vicious cycle. Lose sleep . . . no appetite . . . fetal position again. Made a med adjustment. Here's hoping it kicks in.

The get-together yesterday was a good time, but I didn't feel quite myself. I missed meeting you, IHC.

I want something to happen. I know exactly why LilSis broke her Plan B. I know how Fox's head comes close to exploding when she reads "You're doing it wrong. You should be doing it this way." This is hard. And it hurts. A lot.

I want to reach out to the SCQ and try to reason with her. Show her how things could be. Or just find out if she's happy with where she is so that maybe I could move on.

She was (via email and TM) gracious keeping the kids yesterday and offered up extra time for me today. I talked with the kids about it, and they wanted the extra time with me, so I accepted it. Then she texts me asking if I can bring them back an hour later than I had said I would. Why? What's she doing? Who's she doing it with? Torturing myself.

I know that I need to go darker and protect myself better.

It's not supposed to be this way.
SD, it was very nice meeting you yesterday. Can you believe me when I tell you it is better for your health and your heart to NOT know what she is doing? Reasoning with a wayward spouse is like throwing cotton balls at a alligator (thanks to noodle I think). You are not going to reason her out of what she is doing, plan A was to show her the changes are permanent and plan b is to protect you. I am sorry you are hurting, I really am.
Oh, Mr. Smiley,

I'm so sorry for all of your pain. The only real alternative to Plan B is being a punching bag, or Plan D.

Hey, I'm not perfect, guy, I broke Plan B back in December when PWC called the house and 'mistook' me for Aimless. I would have rather never received that call, EVER. There weren't even any crumbs there for me to lap up; it was awful.

It sounds more like stress, anxiety is a big part of your depression. Doing it alone is rough, especially when the kids are so young. You always have to be ON. You broke Plan B once, and got some answers, however foggy they were. You have to remind yourself that it didn't work, and groveling at SCQ's feet won't work, either, NOTHING YOU DO WILL. She has to find her way back. You can't force her.

YOu want your wife back, you are doing everything that you can to affect that ending. Please know that this is not a 2x4 in the least. Your pain seeps from the written page.

And, you are right, it is not supposed to be this way.
SD,

I feel your pain. I want my H back too, but I know if I break my Plan B, he will come back but I will then be the third person in my own marriage. I have been for a long time now, and I know that I don't really want that. I'm sure you don't either. Sometimes, I do consider it. I keep thinking maybe if I do that, then I will grow to hate him and this won't be so hard. Do we really want to hate them? ******, I don't know. It sure would be a lot easier for me, but I don't have little ones at home. My DD is grown.

Come here and cry with us. I'm afraid it's the only way we can all get through this. As long as they are with OP, they have to come back on their own.
Thanks, guys. What's most frustrating, I think, is that I had been doing so much better and can't figure out why I feel so bad now. Meds, missed sleep, the vacation trigger--none of those seem significant enough for how long this bout of depression has lasted. Maybe taken as a group. . . .

I know that my feeling better and stronger is right around the corner. And I know that I can't reason with the SCQ and that I'm better off not knowing what's going on and that there's really nothing I can do (not that I don't really really appreciate the pep talks), but the urges to DO SOMETHING still come. Do they ever stop?

I think I've been afraid of making myself okay with the way things are. Accepting it. I think I'm afraid that if I accept it and get too comfortable with it, I won't want her back.

I don't know whether any of this makes sense. Mostly I post this stuff to get it out of my system. It's a safe place to bring this kind of pain. People that aren't particularly close to me don't get why I'm doing this ("You should just move on"), and those who are close (my IC included) hate to see me in so much pain.

Tomorrow will be better.
sdguy ~ depression is suppressed anger turned inward.

For me, writing about my anger helped a great deal. There is something profoundly therapeutic about the physical act of putting pen to paper and letting the anger flow outwards.

Working towards acceptance also was key. Acceptance will bring you peace.
Quote
I think I've been afraid of making myself okay with the way things are. Accepting it. I think I'm afraid that if I accept it and get too comfortable with it, I won't want her back.


I don't think accepting how things are will cause you to give up on her. Letting go is tough, but once done, it is a weight off of your shoulder. Once you stop shouldering the burden for your wife's welfare and let her be fully in charge of that, something in you will change.

If you have love left, it won't disappear, but you will be at peace, and able to function better. Who gives a [email]d@mn[/email] about what other people think; let people think what they want about your motives for this. Now, as for those who love you, just keep thanking them for their support and let them know that you are going to ride the storm out, that for you, there is no other way to do this, for you, for your children and for your wife. My friends and family never got that one, but they supported me.

(((guy smiley)))
Oh man, sdguy, I feel you. I don't go through such long periods of depression, but some pretty long hours. I'm sorry you're feeling that way.

I don't have any advice for you, just know that better things are coming. This won't last forever.

Quote
I think I've been afraid of making myself okay with the way things are. Accepting it. I think I'm afraid that if I accept it and get too comfortable with it, I won't want her back.


For me, this was a valid concern. I was done, was justing waiting for the D. I was looking forward with NO glances back. I was at the point that I didn't want him back. But BR yanked me back, pointed some things out, made me think. Made me MAD, but made me think, too. I'm still a bit confused on things, but I've been reminded that this is a marathon. At the finish line what is my ultimate wish? For DDs parents to be in love with each other.

I truly believe this CAN happen, I just have to figure out (with help) how not to destroy the possibility by what I do.

It will get better, sdguy, believe it.

Fox
As always, ladies, thanks for your thoughts.

Quote
For me, writing about my anger helped a great deal. There is something profoundly therapeutic about the physical act of putting pen to paper and letting the anger flow outwards.

I think you're on to something here. Early on, I was journaling. Later, posting here kind of took the place of journaling. And then when my Plan B settled down I stopped posting so much because there was nothing to talk about. And I haven't been talking much about it with friends for the same reason (and the worry that they will get sick of hearing about it). But that stuff doesn't just go away, so maybe it just all built up and started clogging the pipes.

Quote
I don't think accepting how things are will cause you to give up on her. Letting go is tough, but once done, it is a weight off of your shoulder. Once you stop shouldering the burden for your wife's welfare and let her be fully in charge of that, something in you will change.

I know what I want. I believe that I am doing everything that I can do. I know that trying to do more won't help and can make things worse. It is what it is. Either she will come back or she won't. I will be great either way once I get there. I have the serenity prayer posted right in front of me. I guess I just need to remember to look at it more often.

It's the damn problem solver in me, always asking "but what if. . . but what if." Professionally, this serves me very well, but in this case it's agony.

Quote
At the finish line what is my ultimate wish? For DDs parents to be in love with each other.

I truly believe this CAN happen, I just have to figure out (with help) how not to destroy the possibility by what I do.

Great words, Fox. Thanks for them. Marathon. Right.

Have you noticed how much easier it is to help someone else see this stuff than it is to apply it to yourself?

Okay, if not an AHA moment at least a HMM moment. Getting back on track, as it were. I slept in this morning and feel pretty good so far today (I wore the kitten out yesterday and so she went easy on me at the crack of dawn this morning). Sleep is good.
SDG,
I missed coming on Sat. but the opportunity to borrow money from a relative came about and I had to follow up on it.

I am sorry that the depression has hit you so hard. It is weird, because you can be plugging along feeling strong and ready for the long haul and then you just get blind sided and are down for the count.

But, just like the wave analogy I have used before...yes the wave knocked you down...you got covered in sand...now you get up, get rinsed off and get back out in the water. Will another rogue wave hit...maybe...or maybe you'll see it coming and get out of the way. But it is worth it to get back in. YES the SCQ is worth it (in her right mind!), YES your kids are worth it and YES you can do it.

I wish that BDS was worth waiting for, but he's not. It seems like every week I hear new info that confirms he rarely was who I thought he was. I am confused and saddened to comprehend how I never realy knew him. I feel a little dumbfounded, honestly.

GUY SMILEY, You are strong and you will make it through this latest wave!
Good to hear from you, IHC. The wave analogy is a good one. I think I have gotten some good ideas about where things are coming from and how I can better protect myself. Thanks for the pep talk.

I'm sorry for your own journey. Based on what you're hearing, it sounds like you will be better off without BDS once you get to that place. At times you get glimpses of it, I think. I'm glad to hear that your financial situation is better, but I haven't seen anywhere that you have made advances in getting BDS to be accountable for what he owes. Have you had any luck in that area? You're not avoiding it, are you?
sdguy ~

It was very nice meeting you on Sat., and I just wanted to say that I am sorry you are hurting so bad.

This is an awful, AWFUL thing to go through (I was on Dr. Harley's radio show, and he told me it is the WORST thing I will ever go through; and that I have PTSD, but that eventually I will be ok); it hurts and the pain seems neverending at times.

It is hard to believe that you will be ok, because you don't feel like you will be. I know, this is how I felt and this is how I STILL feel sometimes. It's hard and it sucks and it is JUST NOT FAIR. I know...

No advice to offer, just wanted to say hang in there, you are making it, whether you feel it or not, you ARE getting stronger and better everyday.

You will be ok.

(((sdguy)))
Today's email from the SCQ:

"You transferred money to the joint. Was that just to cover your insurance? Once we each change the life insurance to our own accounts the account can probably be closed so it doesn't cost $6 each month to have open. You can transfer money directly to my account.

Is the Acura now paid off?

Have you started looking into refinancing the house?"

So now I'm triggered again. Six and a half months into Plan B and over two years into their affair and she's still proceeding toward divorce. Angry. Want to vomit. Want to unload--to ****** with her and her worthless family and that POS OM.

I'm not convinced she will ever wake up. If she does, I don't know that she's strong enough to go through a recovery. She's stubborn, weak, cowardly, and narrow-minded. I'm not sure why I want her back to begin with.

Okay, that was some good venting.

So, my intermediary is on vacation so this came directly to me. But I'm not sure how my intermediary would have filtered this.

I'm not sure how or whether to respond.
Respond by deleting it.
Boy, she's got good timing (or not). You've been feeling cruddy and here she comes to add to the cruddiness.

Sorry, sdguy. ((((sdguy))))

I don't have any advice for you. I'm in my own pickle. I'd say, don't respond, but what do I know?

Fox

P.S. Don't forget to breathe.
Quote
P.S. Don't forget to breathe.

Oh, man, Fox. You made me smile, and I wouldn't have thought that was possible.

Yeah, it's nice timing. I was just starting to feel better when I get hit in the stomach with a shovel.

I think FF's advice is right.
You know SD, from what you said about this A, I think we can all see that it won't last long term. Outsiders see things more clearly. I hope you have the will to outlast it though.

I agree, delete the email....
Okay, I deleted it.

This is one for Super Dark Guy, and he's been falling down on the job lately. Super Dark Guy would laugh this off as the spewings of a prototypical WS without giving it a second thought. If forced to respond, he would say "I only do marriage. You can talk to my lawyer about divorce."

Gotta find that costume. . . .
SD,

Did I see somewhere in your thread that you spoke with Jennifer Harley? I have a phone appt. tomorrow and was wondering if you did, and did you like her?
Yes, KG, I've had a few sessions with Jennifer. I have found her very helpful, especially in giving pep talks and keeping hope alive. Everyone wants to know what their chances are or how long it will take, but she will studiously evade answering this question (because it's different for everyone and there are no guarantees). A couple of pages back there's a post about my latest session with Jennifer. For me, when things get really bad, I turn to Jennifer.

I'm still bouncing around today from the email (I was hoping, of course, that the SCQ had been rethinking divorce, and the email indicates that she isn't), trying to decide what, if anything, to do differently.

1) Just ignore it and continue with what I've been doing

2) Install a darker plan B, where the SCQ knows her emails are being screened and there's an intermediary for the Sunday kid-swap

3) Throw in the towel

4) Calm down and breathe

As I type this, it seems like a Duh moment, but at my last session with Jennifer, her advice was more like 1 than 2. And she would recommend 4, of course.
SD,
That's good to hear. I know that I've seen lots of positives on Steve, but not much on her. I'm looking forward to the session. Will check in tomorrow evening and let you know how it goes. Hang in there...
Posted By: sdguy038 The Anger Bank gets bigger all the time - 07/21/07 04:14 AM
The kids went back to the SCQ today. When I took them to daycare, DS7 was carrying his shoes. It turns out he had two left shoes. He called me this evening and asked me whether I could bring another shoe over. Now? I asked, and he said sure.

So I drive over with both shoes and as I'm walking up to her condo I can see into the kitchen. The OM is standing there, wearing comfortable house clothes, cooking. He turns and looks at me and continues as if nothing is amiss. No attempt to hide anything. Nothing. I drop the shoes, ring the bell, and walk away, slamming the gate.

Rage. I talked with my parents on the phone and calmed down a bit, but I'm still incensed.

This morning I sent the SCQ an email 1) telling her at which daycare DS7 would be today, and 2) replying to her questions with one word answers, including No for Have I looked into refinancing the house. Is this a retaliation for the email or are they just incredibly insensitive or both?

I want them to hurt. Knowing that they will someday isn't doing it for me right now. I want for the gush of realization of what they've done to hit them all at once. I want to send a letter to his children and tell them what kind of man their father is and what he did to his mother. I want to protect my children from their filth. I want to have never married into her pathetic family.

Of course, I can't do any of those things, and I certainly wouldn't undo my children. I'm breathing.

On one hand, I'm asking myself why this feels like such a big deal. I as much as knew that this was happening, even if I hoped otherwise. So how does this make anything different?

On the other hand, maybe this is the last straw. I don't know how much longer I can do this. It's getting harder to brush away the fact that I will probably be better off without the SCQ.

Does anyone see hope here? It's over six months of Plan B, over two years of affair. Are there *any* examples on the board of a WW who came back after that long? Maybe it's time to move on.

Advice wanted.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: The Anger Bank gets bigger all the time - 07/21/07 12:30 PM
Quote
Does anyone see hope here? It's over six months of Plan B, over two years of affair. Are there *any* examples on the board of a WW who came back after that long? Maybe it's time to move on.

Mortarman is one off the top of my head. And most affairs don't last two years AFTER exposure. There will be a point where she will consider coming back. The questions is whether you will have already moved on. Whatever happens, you will walk away with your head held high.
In my opinion, when SCQ has the children, it is then SHE who needs to come to your home to pick up things for the children (you can leave stuff on the front stoop); SHE is in full charge at that time. Even if your son calls you, he needs to defer questions of that nature to your WW. Stop helping them; it's enabling them to just go about life with you picking up the slack.

That email was not important, it was just her pulling you back into her crap; keeping you on the line, hanging there, even with the D proceeding. She's got you good right now. Every email, every exchange, every game, she gets to take bits of you with her.

Going darker would be my suggestion. Once I did, I really let go; and I was ready for whatever came my way. I was no longer afraid. I didn't want a D, but I was not afraid, because I knew I would be happy. I just did. YOU cannot let go until you break off all contact.

I'm not angry with you, guy smiley, I'm concerned for you. The darker you can be now, more than ever, the better. Cut her Guy fix off completely. Personally, when I once and for all did this, I felt much much better on a daily basis. I still wondered what was to be, but it never stayed with me for too long.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Anger Bank gets bigger all the time - 07/21/07 10:34 PM
Thanks, SL and Jim.

Quote
Once I did, I really let go; and I was ready for whatever came my way. I was no longer afraid. I didn't want a D, but I was not afraid, because I knew I would be happy. I just did. YOU cannot let go until you break off all contact.

Maybe this is what I need to do. I've known all along that I would be happy whatever happens. I think I've been fighting so hard because an intact family is what I want, and I'm not used to not getting what I want. Talking with my IC, I think that there is a control issue at work.

I've been afraid to let go of the hope, but all I feel for the SCQ right now is disgust.

Need to keep breathing.
Hey, sdguy. I haven't posted to you much as I have no idea what advice to give.

I have to agree with SL about SCQ needing to do the work when she has the kids. If they need something, SHE needs to do the running.

Oh....but maybe that is power struggling. In the end does it matter WHO gets the shoe to where it needs to be? I dunno, ask BR. She's a master at identifying powerstruggles. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I can't imagine what you felt when you walked up and saw OM in the window. I will give you kudos for not making a huge scene about it. There are some who would not have been able to keep a handle on the rage and would have knocked on the door and confronted SCQ and OM. Good job on controlling yourself. I know it's tough.

Here's a thought for the vets. Is that maybe what the SCQ is looking for? Her man to stand up and fight for her? Does the fact that sdguy saw OM there and simply walk away show her that he doesn't care?

When my WH blew his top after he "caught" Bab's BH and I at a rodeo together, I wondered if that was what he wanted from me when I found out about his A. Did he want me to make a huge scene and show him how important he was to me? Did he want me to fight for him to prove this?

The day Bab's and WH showed up at my house and she was knocking at MY door, I can't tell you how badly I wanted to step out that door and knock her on her a$$. I felt like I was such a chickenchit for staying in the house and calling the sheriff.

Would it have done any good to knock her on her a$$? It would have felt good at the moment, but in the end, WH and I's relationship would not be improved by that action. It would have just united them against me MORE.

I never caught them together prior to this but Bab's BH did. He regrets not knocking my WH on his butt at the time. I kinda wish he would have. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> May not have made a difference, but maybe it would have.

Just questions....food for thought. I have no idea what the answers are.

I'm not advocating that you do that. I think you did great by walking away. I'm sorry you keep feeling stomped on.

There's no simple way to let go, we each get there when it's time.

Hang in there, it'll come.

Put a shout out to some more vets...specifically. They may suggest a change or have some other ideas.

She's got you on the run and that can't be good.

Fox
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I think I've been fighting so hard because an intact family is what I want, and I'm not used to not getting what I want.

THIS is where a large part of your anger and depression is coming from.

Here's the thing....I know you were being a good dad, trying to take care of your kid when you know his caretaker is less than attentive....

However....you are NOT being a good dad when you put yourself in a situation that makes you vulnerable and cause harm to you.

Why?

Because for every hit you take, you are one step closer to divorce and not recovery. You son may need his sneaker right now, but long term, he needs both his mom and his dad.

This is why the 2x4's come out when you break plan B. (Wild are you listening!?)

The best thing you can do for your son is to care for his dad right now.

I do NOT think you are powerstruggling with your wife!

You are however, powerstruggling with God...

Here is my prescription:

The Language of Letting Go
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This is why the 2x4's come out when you break plan B. (Wild are you listening!?)


No, I'm not. (fingers in my ears, singing "lalalalalala"

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I do NOT think you are powerstruggling with your wife!

You are however, powerstruggling with God...

You can't even give me a little one, BR? Geez, you're tough.

Take care of you, sdguy, your kids need you.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Anger Bank gets bigger all the time - 07/22/07 06:36 AM
Okay. Thanks Fox and BR.

I guess I'm a bit thick-headed, too. I keep taking hits, and they hurt, and it's getting harder and harder. It feels like that I'm Done point is right around the corner.

I'm going to figure out how to go darker.

Sdguy,

I have read your thread with interest and must say you have grown tremendously.

I do have a question. Have you challenged (in writing) WW/SCQ having you children participating in her adulterous relationship with OM, including exposure to OM, having him for sleep overs, et al? If not, why not? If this goes to court I would think that you would want to show that you neither condoned or supported the notion that the WW has and continues to expose your children to her paramour, confusing them, hurting them emotionally.

If this goes to court and you have just gone along w/ WW's actions regarding this it will be more difficult to use it against her at that time. I made it abundantly clear up front that exposure to OM in my case was unacceptable and to do so would insure the greatest effort in court to hold her accountable. Also, had it ordered at the temp hearing that he was not to be around our son.

You may have already thought of all of this, but I was just curious.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Anger Bank gets bigger all the time - 07/22/07 09:25 PM
Hi, HAP

Thanks for dropping by. I would have done that if I thought it would work. California is a no-fault state, and everything I've heard is that the court won't interfere in her personal life. I've talked with my IC, my lawyer, and the court-appointed custody mediator about it, and unless 1) he presents a danger to the children, or 2) she agrees to it, there isn't a way to prevent my kids from being around the POS OM.

I would have had to pursue full custody to get the adultery before the court, and the indication from the mediator was that the judge almost certainly wouldn't give it much consideration. The courts just don't do that here in CA. Since she indicated from the beginning she only wanted 50% custody and I wasn't sure that I could win or wanted to pay for a battle, I have done what I have.

Believe me, I wish it were otherwise. It's one more thing that I have had to accept, but every time it's pushed into my face I get closer to being DONE.

Things SCQ is teaching our children:

if the truth is inconvenient, lie

promises don't matter

if you don't like the consequences of your actions, blame someone else

she's more important than they are

Lots of things like that I would like to say, but I write them down instead.
SDGuy,

I feel for you.

I think breathing is a good idea.

Here's some advice:

If you walk away, then don't slam the gate. You don't want to give her satisfaction in hurting you.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Anger Bank gets bigger all the time - 07/23/07 01:02 AM
Like Fox said, restricting myself to slamming the gate was enough of a struggle, but your point is well taken.

I subtly inquired from DS7 today about the shoes, and he told me that the SCQ did not ask him to call me (rather told him he would have to wear different shoes) and that she didn't know I was coming over. So it wasn't deliberate on her part. Immoral, foolish, developmentally harmful for our children, yes, but not an attempt to hurt me.

My own fault for not protecting myself better. Gotta protect myself better. I'm feeling a bit less DONE now, but it looms more and more.
Posted By: believer Re: The Anger Bank gets bigger all the time - 07/23/07 01:25 AM
SD Guy - is OM in the military, and have you exposed to them?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Anger Bank gets bigger all the time - 07/23/07 01:40 AM
No, he's in IT at an academic institution. They don't even have a policy on adultery. The SCQ was supervising him when it became known at work, but all they did was reorganize. Of course, I didn't find out until months later. Not that I'm bitter or anything.
((Guy smiley)))

Don't know what to say other than you have come so far. You're in my prayers.

Still
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Anger Bank gets bigger all the time - 07/23/07 08:42 PM
Quote
Quote
I think I've been fighting so hard because an intact family is what I want, and I'm not used to not getting what I want.

THIS is where a large part of your anger and depression is coming from.

I do NOT think you are powerstruggling with your wife!

You are however, powerstruggling with God...

I ordered the book. Thanks again for the recommendation. I want to explore this a bit more, because I agree that it's very significant.

I think I'm angry and depressed because it feels like I am failing. Or losing (even though there are no winners). My intellect side can talk all day about how this isn't my fault and how I've done everything I can to prevent divorce (except for the flaws in my Plan B, but I'm only human). I know this, but it still FEELS like failure.

And I hate failure. Professionally, I have been a successful scientific problem-solver, thriving on nasty complex problems. Tenacity and persistance have served me well in this world. This sounds cocky, probably, or that I've been really lucky, but I honestly can't think of any significant problem in my career or life that I wasn't able to come up with a solution for. Granted, I think I have carefully put myself into situations where the risk of failure was low. Because I hate it.

I know that making my family whole again is not a problem I can solve, but it FEELS like it is. Or one that I should be able to. At various points during this journey, I have at least partially accepted what I can do and what I cannot--what I have control over, but I seem to be having trouble with it now. I have never had so little control over something I care about so much.

Can someone help me with this? Or help me with the difference between letting go and moving on? I think that I need to let go, but it feels synonymous with moving on to me right now, and I'm not sure how to reconcile the two.

It has been a very long time (> 2 yrs?) since I felt anything like affection or companionship, and I'm feeling particularly starved. And even if I make it to recovery (which clearly won't be any time soon), it's not like there will be a flood of emotional-need-meeting coming my way, at least not right off the bat. Is it realistic to think that I can survive that long? I wonder whether I should even try.
Oy, Guy, you really know how to pose the hard questions!

I am very similar to you, in the achievment/failure rate thing. I don't GAMBLE for a reason. The odds are stacked against me.

Letting go vs. moving on. Hmmm, Let me take a stab at describing the difference, in my opinion. Letting go is a control thing. Moving on is letting go and giving up. I don't think either is a cop out at all. If you choose to move on, you do so knowing that you have hit your limit, and know that you have done all that YOU can to break up the A, and get to recovery.

You do have some CONTROL over keeping your family intact, but it's only control over what you do, not anybody else. You are doing that, by working the Plans. You are controlling your behavior, your emotions, and learning about yourself.

Maybe letting go and moving on feel synonymous right now because you are continuing to get hurt, draining that love away, and you feel the urge to let is all go and BE HAPPY. You can be happy without moving on, but it takes time away from the source of your pain.

Guy, I did not SEE PWC at all during Plan B; we may have had some email exchange, but I never saw him. I avoided it. I didn't hear his voice, except for when DS was on the phone with him standing right next to me. No eye contact, NADA, ZIP. This could serve you well. Out of sight, out of mind.
Posted By: chrisner Re: The Anger Bank gets bigger all the time - 07/23/07 09:14 PM
Hey SD.

There are a lot of letting go moments in our life. When DD19 (DD16 then) first drove off in her car alone with her brand new license. When she left home for college. Some day when she walks down the aisle....these are all letting go times. I let go because I believed in her and trusted she was prepared. I had to trust the plan and believe it would work.

Maybe now you just have to trust in your plan, have faith in yourself and believe if the best outcome can happen, this is the only way. The path you are on is too painful.

Amigo, you need to withdrawal from the madness.
SDguy ~ I've bumped the Detaching with Love thread, I'd like you to really read the three Cs....

Let me know what you think.
Posted By: sdguy038 How to Think - 07/24/07 12:14 AM
Thanks, BR. Powerful stuff.

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The Three C's

Detaching with love is easier when we remember the three C's - we did not cause the infidelity in another, we cannot control the infidelity or the wayward spouse, we cannot cure the infidelity or the wayward spouse.

Cause - Infidelity is an addiction. Just as we cannot cause someone to develop diabetes, cancer, or any other disease, we do not have the power to cause anyone else to become addicted. Every addicted person blames others for their addiction and their use - this is their denial and their disease. Accepting that blame becomes our prison.

Control - Despite our best intentions and efforts, controlling other people does not work. Relationships cannot grow and intimacy cannot develop if one person is controlling the other. We only have control over ourselves and how we respond to situations, other people and their behavior. Trying to control other peoples behavior may temporarily make us feel better and give us an illusion of being in control - but in the long run, it does not work.

Cure - Only the wayward spouse can seek help for his/her addiction. No matter what we do, the treatment for the addiction is not ours to hand out.

Okay, so I have the first one (cause) covered. I know that it's not my fault through and through. I think I'm okay at control. There are some things I still try to or wish I could control (mostly her having the OM around the kids), but even that I have to accept for the most part.

It's the Cure that's beating me up right now. I think I'm desperately afraid that she won't be able to cure herself. (to which you, or at least my IC, will respond "And?"--feel free to insert something else, though.) I have lots of thoughts that get in my way here (what ifs, yeah-buttals). Just thinking about it makes my whole body tense up.

Quote
Detaching with love does not mean that we stop caring. It simply means that we quit trying to control someone else and their behavior. We stop creating comfortable environments for unacceptable behavior. We stop lying to ourselves, we accept the reality of who the person is instead of focusing on who they "could" be.

So I'm trying to make sense out of this in terms of plan B, because it seems like I've been focusing a lot on who the SCQ "could" be. If I weren't, I would have dropped her like a hot rock. Have I been lying to myself?
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 07/24/07 12:48 AM
This is who she is TODAY.

Today is NOT tomorrow.

And I think you need to back up to the control part.

Your wife's affair wasn't part of YOUR brilliant plan for your life....and that ticks you off in a huge way....yes?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 07/24/07 01:18 AM
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This is who she is TODAY.

Today is NOT tomorrow.

Okay, that's what I thought the answer was, but I like talking with you.

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And I think you need to back up to the control part.

Your wife's affair wasn't part of YOUR brilliant plan for your life....and that ticks you off in a huge way....yes?

Yeah, sort of. I wouldn't say that I have a plan for life. I don't plan much of anything if I can avoid it (for the Myers-Briggs fans in the audience, I am an INTP with maxed out P).

I think the way I would put it is that I'm not sure what it is supposed to look like, but I know that this ain't it. And yes, it ticks me off that our family is now broken, but I'm not sure that's where you were headed with this.

Wait, are we talking about me controlling the SCQ or controlling my life? Maybe that's exactly where you're headed with this.
Posted By: Sadmo Re: How to Think - 07/24/07 03:36 AM
SDguy-

Just a question... are you hung up on saving the M because you are not used to failure?

The reason I ask this? I think that that was my problem. I knew that my M was over, yet I could not believe that it WAS over... and he never tried to fix it.

Do you know what I mean?

That I had already left the M, told him to go, but my pride prevented me from filing for a D. I could NOT, could NOT believe that he did not try to win me back, or get me back at any point in time.

Since I filed for my D, I actually feel so much more at peace, and happy. Oddly enough. Now I know what is going on, where I stand, what is going on, and it actually provided me with a happiness that I have not had in a LONG, LONG time.

So.... what I am saying is this: REALLY, REALLY, examine what your motives are to continue the plan B... And if you are not sure, I would say that you should go darker into a plan B...pretend that you ARE D'd (not date, but that you are not together) and go on. Id it is a pride issue, swallow it, and move on: D her.

I fear that your using the plan b as a means to win her back. I do not think that you should think of it that way. Perhaps you should do something, so that YOU can move on. It may make you feel so much better, to be in charge of YOU again...

Do you know what I am saying?
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 07/24/07 11:50 AM
Lets be clear.

When I say "Letting Go", I am not advocating "File for Divorce" or "Move On".

When I say "Acceptance", I do NOT mean "Agree with", "Approve", "Go along with", "Give up", or anything else along those lines.

Letting Go and Acceptance are something else entirely.

I think you are starting to get it...I am not talking about control of your wife. I am talking about your arguement with God about your life - He didn't get it right did He?

You might not have had a Life Plan laid out, step by step with goals and timelines...

But you did not get married and start a family without a goal right?

I used to believe, that if I just did all the right things, if I was a GOOD GIRL....if I married a good Catholic boy, if waited to have sex before marriage, if I had babies and stayed home with them, if I went to church every Sunday - If I followed ALL THE RULES, that God would be good, and my life would be happy.

I grew angry...frustrated...bitter...and terribly clinically depressed to the point of suicide.

I eventually got on ADs....started working a 12 step program....and then Life played a very cruel joke...

Here I was...doing all the right things...STRUGGLING to put one foot in front of the other to be a good girl...

And I found out my husband was cheating. So I kicked him out of the house....and discovered I was pregnant 2 weeks later.

Oh boy...I WAS ANGRY. BLACK HUGE DEEP ANGER.

At my husband, yes of course....but mostly...at God.

I'd been cheated at life and it was all His Fault, I'd played by the rules and He cheated.

Am I playing your song?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 07/24/07 04:35 PM
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Am I playing your song?

Yeah, I think so.

"But it's not supposed to be This Way." This is wrong. My family is broken. Look at all the other people (vacation, neighborhood) -- they're not broken. Why does my family have to be broken? I don't want it to be broken. It makes me angry and depressed.

And it hits me particularly hard because I've been lucky, blessed, charmed in that I've never had to deal with something anything close to this bad before. I would be having the same power-struggle if one of my kids had cancer, say.

Most things in life you can't control. Even the things it seems you have control over, you probably don't and probably shouldn't.

How am I doing?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 07/24/07 04:59 PM
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are you hung up on saving the M because you are not used to failure?

Thanks for the insights, Sadmo. The question is one that I wonder about, but I'm pretty sure that the reason I continue is that the best thing for my children is to be raised by both parents in a loving relationship. And, based on what I have learned, I still believe that is possible.

That I am not used to failure makes some part of it harder to swallow. Maybe when I feel like it's not working.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How to Think - 07/24/07 05:11 PM
Guy,

I always felt like it was all wrong, too. That's part of what kept ME going. I also learned to let go of my expectations of PWC; learning that was about control, too.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 07/24/07 05:22 PM
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Hey Guy Smiley,

I think it could do wonders for you to start seeking out that 'guy' now. Get back to you. It's tough to cut through all of the anger and depression, but it's the best thing for you. My friends started to notice a change in my demeanor when I entered Plan B. It wasn't until March that they remarked how well I seemed to be doing, how much like MYSELF I was again.

The frustrating part is that I was doing this--I had been feeling better and more like myself. More likely to joke around with people and be the playful person that I am most of the time. I think it's the last month or so that things have been so much worse.

It's so clearly depression, though. I'm not sure whether it's biochemical or situational--probably a combination. I see my shrink this afternoon and will almost certainly change meds.

Something has to change. Somethings.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 07/24/07 09:53 PM
SDguy ~

Quote
"But it's not supposed to be This Way." This is wrong. My family is broken. Look at all the other people (vacation, neighborhood) -- they're not broken. Why does my family have to be broken? I don't want it to be broken. It makes me angry and depressed.

What way? Your way? Or God's way? Or what you think should be God's way...but really is your way?

If each of us handed God a blueprint for "The Way Things Ought To Be", do you think that 1. they would all be the same plan...and 2. do you think that all those plans would be wise?

The path to peace is to Let Go of your way, and to trust that God's way will be enough.

Stop looking at your neighbors.

You can't judge their lives from the outside. Everyone is at a different place on a different path.

I'm happily married today...but 5 years ago....I was in your shoes...

Everyone has their own path to follow and you can't compare yours to theirs.

But ok....lets just talk about YOU. God can't possibly be right - your family needs to be intact....

But remember...

God allows EVERYONE to make choices. Including your wife.

And you my dear, not God, choose to tie your life to THIS woman.

You are not a victim here.

You also choose the behaviors that led to the environment of your marriage....

You just are not a victim of God's whim...

God can and will give you the support and strength you need...but only...if you ask. God can and will fix your situation....not according to YOUR plan, which is human and flawed...but to HIS plan...which is way cooler than anything you and I could think of....but only if you get the heck out of God's way.

God doesn't bully or force His will on people. If you choose to hang really tightly onto YOUR WILL for YOUR LIFE...God will let you do that. He won't interefere.

But if you ask, and step out of the way...He will perform miracles.

Thats what I mean by letting go. Let Go of YOUR WILL, YOUR WAY, YOUR BLUEPRINT for "How it is supposed to be" and let God show you His Plan.

I can promise you, I know from experience...that as long as you insist on it being your way...you will suffer.

Let Go and Let God is a powerful antidote for what's broken in your plan.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: How to Think - 07/24/07 10:23 PM
BR, I don't think I've ever posted anything to you but I must this time. Your post above is just awesome, awesome, awesome. Wow. How'd you grow up to be so wise?

Take this one down deep in your heart SD, it's a keeper.
Posted By: Sadmo Re: How to Think - 07/25/07 03:58 AM
SdGuy-

I think that you need to look at what is best for you.... for YOU to recover, for YOU to feel better... about yourself, your future, your PRIDE.

I do not know if plan B is so good for you... you are having problems with depression you are not feeling good, you are being set off by SCQ all of the time.

I know that you want your family together. I know that you think it is best. But think of this too: what is best for the kids is for both of their parents to be happy and healthy.

I really worry that you are not doing well with all of the stress, and the fact that you are in limbo so long. Maybe it is time to break out of limbo?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 07/25/07 06:35 AM
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SDguy ~

Quote
"But it's not supposed to be This Way." This is wrong. My family is broken. Look at all the other people (vacation, neighborhood) -- they're not broken. Why does my family have to be broken? I don't want it to be broken. It makes me angry and depressed.

What way? Your way? Or God's way? Or what you think should be God's way...but really is your way?

If each of us handed God a blueprint for "The Way Things Ought To Be", do you think that 1. they would all be the same plan...and 2. do you think that all those plans would be wise?

The path to peace is to Let Go of your way, and to trust that God's way will be enough.

Stop looking at your neighbors.

Not that it makes much of a difference, but maybe I should have clarified what you quoted--that's what I think the little voice/inner child/subconscious/emotional side is whispering to me. The petulant child.

I saw my IC today. Great lady. I've started to feel bad for her watching me go through this. She tears up at most sessions, and it's clear she really cares about me. She must want to just shake me sometimes--as smart a guy as I am, to get hung up and keep beating my head against it.

Anyway, she took a different tack today and asked me to picture how it would be at one of my kids' high school graduation if things continue in the way they're headed. So I closed my eyes and thought about it and pictured myself married again and happy and cordial with the SCQ, and the kids are fine. Then I laughed, and she asked why I was laughing, and I said "Well, everything is good. . . but it's still wrong." Then I said "It's the petulant child thing--I want what I want." To which she replied "How's that working out for you?" (and then "I've always wanted to say that"). I described the conversations here on the thread and the kinds of realizations I have been having, and she used the words "learning humility." I said I couldn't remember whether I included those in my posts, but that I thought them as I composed.

So clearly something has to give. I can't keep going like I have been for the past month. I'm going to let it go. Do what I can. Take care of myself. Stop trying to control and worrying about what isn't mine. I know that if I back up four months in my thread, I will find myself saying the same things and that I made progress towards that, but somewhere I fell off the wagon. Maybe it will stick this time. The thinking that BR has prompted me to do already has me feeling better--I have noticed changes just in the last day or so. I ordered the book she recommended and am looking forward to getting it.

And, since I'm going to be feeling so much better, I'm going to continue in my Plan B, but I'm going to make it darker. I'm going to tell the SCQ that emails are being screened, and I'm going to rearrange the Sunday kid transfers so that I don't have to see or hear her. I think I will send another abbreviated PBL. Do you think email is sufficient? Shall I post it for editing before I send it?

I concede that I am both stubborn and thick-headed. What I've said I'm going to do are things that you guys have been telling me to do all along, and I really appreciate your sticking with me. Please continue to 2x4 me as necessary.

Last thought: My IC and I talked about what a next relationship might be like. A thought struck me about an hour later--I wonder whether I am afraid to find out what I have been missing all these years.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 07/25/07 10:13 AM
sdguy ~

Quote
Not that it makes much of a difference, but maybe I should have clarified what you quoted--that's what I think the little voice/inner child/subconscious/emotional side is whispering to me. The petulant child.

You made me laugh. You think I didn't realize this? My petulant child did more than sulk like yours is.

I truely screamed and yelled out loud at God and shook a fist at the ceiling. (Sounds silly but its true). I had regular full blown temper tantrums.

HOW DARE GOD DO THIS TO ME!?

I was self-righteous and victimized...and oh so angry.

Your IC is right.

This is not about repairing your pride.

This is about humility and learning to say YES to God.

How about that "next relationship" being one with God?
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: How to Think - 07/25/07 02:54 PM
(((sdguy))),

I can relate so much to what you are saying. I also feel I fell off the plan B wagon and actually had some hope after our court date was postponed. Useless hope. I feel my depression getting worse.

My IC has also told me that I don't know what real love is like because I haven't had that for so long. That when I do I'm going to wonder why I hung on so long. I tell her I'm hoping to have that real love with my H again. If my real H ever comes back again.

BR,
I'm going to go back and try to look for your book recommendation maybe it will help me also.
Also can relate to the ranting at God about why me. Why does WH get to be happy like he tells my girls he is. And why do we have to suffer the pain of his actions,

sdguy sorrry for the little threadjack.

Still
Posted By: Sadmo Re: How to Think - 07/25/07 05:00 PM
Sdguy-

It is something to think about... what your next R will be like. Even with yourself.

As I have gone along, I realized a lot of things about myself that needed fixing, and I also realize how unhappy I was in my M for the past couple of years.

I also realize that I was not wrong for being unhappy, MY needs were not being met at ALL. And that is just not right for a R. It is a two way street.

Fortunately, I know several happily married couples that do things right- would never cheat, communicate well, show care for their spouses. I could go on. My point is that I had come to a point where I had people, and myself, telling me that I should just accept my R with my H, and stop being unhappy... but I knew deep down that I should NOT accept his complete indifference to me or any of my needs. And it rallies me to see good, strong, happy marriages out there. I did NOT have to accept a broken M.

So I am still working on myself, and just beginning to think about what I would like my next R to be like.

I think that it will be good for you to go even darker like you said, and, I don't know, pretend that there is NO WAY at all that you can get a hold of her, that she does not exist anymore. Once you do that, you will have to live for YOU, your kids, YOUR priorities in life. And maybe you can stop thinking about HER.

I wish you well on your plan!
Posted By: Knitgirl Re: How to Think - 07/25/07 09:12 PM
Hey SD,

haven't been around much this week, but have followed as best I can.

You said something that struck a chord with me - that you are used to being in control. Same with me. I'm used to having control in most situations and getting what I want. People like us are also very competitive - we don't like, no, we HATE, to lose. I wonder if sometimes I won't let this go because of that. Finding MB has made me into a soldier of sorts - strategizing, honing my battle plan etc. Which is good, because the old me would have left by now and filed for a D.

Last night I decided that I win either way. If he comes back, I've won my H back. If he doesn't, then the OP still hasn't won. What she is getting is a R founded on lies and deceipt with a person who abandoned a M of 34 years. Do I want someone like that? Crazy thinking? I don't know.

Just trying to get through this....
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 07/27/07 09:03 PM
Thanks, BR, for giving me stuff to think about.

What I am trying to do now is Let Go without Being Done. If anyone out there has advice on that concept and is willing to share it with a thick-headed guy (you may have already told me before), I would like to hear it (again).

KG, what you say resonantes with me. If the SCQ and OM wind up together, then they deserve each other and all the pain that they have wrought. They will have to live with what they have done.

Quote
Last night I decided that I win either way. If he comes back, I've won my H back. If he doesn't, then the OP still hasn't won.

So I agree with what you've said here (the OP CAN'T win) but wonder whether it's helpful to think about it in those terms. If you view it as a competition with either WH or OP, it may start to feel like something you can control, and you can't. (How am I doing so far?)

Talking with my IC recently, I commented that giving up FEELS like losing or failing, even if I know it isn't. She seemed surprised by this, and I think it came from her perspective that moving on will be a win for me--I will be happier and likely better off without the SCQ.
Posted By: Knitgirl Re: How to Think - 07/28/07 01:44 AM
SD,

I'm not sure how to let go without being done either. Maybe the way to do this is to put it in God's hands I guess.

There are days that I think I just can't do this anymore, and I'm sure that you have to be thinking the same thing. You've been at it a lot longer than I have. Jennifer says men have more staying power than women though.

And they say that recovery is even harder....
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 07/29/07 11:58 AM
SDguy ~ Letting Go is not quitting.

Letting Go is simply stepping the heck out of God's way and Letting God handle the outcome.

Giving up just means that you've decided that YOU can't fix it so nobody can...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 07/29/07 07:23 PM
I think I don't know how to do one without the other. There was another email on Friday that didn't even have that much triggering content, but I was triggered, and I'm to the point that every trigger invites plan FU.

I don't know that WW can ever be someone I want to be with. I'm beginning to think that once I'm out of this and move on I'm going to find out what I've been missing--that WW never did a good job of meeting my needs. Or that's what I'm afraid of. Especially since I'm beginning to realize that W was a safe choice--that even if it was unconscious I settled for a safe option in a mate and *still* got burned (Kind of like you playing by the rules, BR. And yes, I think it makes me angry).

I have to take the kids over to the SCQ in a few minutes. As I was getting DD4 ready, she had a crying fit that she didn't like Mommy living somewhere else, that she wanted Mommy to come home, that Mommies weren't supposed to leave their families. And lots of whys. I told her she would have to ask Mommy, that I didn't know why, that I wished she would come home but that I didn't think that she was going to.

I don't know what to do. I can't keep living like this.

I'm going to walk on the beach.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 07/30/07 01:14 AM
Saying you can't do one without the other simply means that you are not willing to let God take a stab at it. If you can't have it your way you are just gonna take your ball and go home, huh?

I get that it's hard to trust someone that you are angry with. Of course you can't let go.

Have you started journaling again? You must must must deal with your anger in order to move forward in ANY direction.

The anger is the issue you have to address right now.

Plan FU will not wake her up...and while you might get a temporary fix - it won't fix anything, including your wounded soul.

Plan FU is a sad, childish temper tantrum that makes you less.
Posted By: Knitgirl Re: How to Think - 07/30/07 01:34 AM
SD,

True, I did an FU, and it did turn things a little but it was childish. I'm not sure if my WH is now responding to that or the fact that I went immediately to B. I wish that I would just have gone to B and not blown up like I did. That wasn't my personality, but I'm one who holds things in to the breaking point, then blow. It's only once every 5-10 years, but when it happens I can't control it.

You've been at this so long, that no one could blame you if you did blow, but no matter what happens I think that you will always look back and be thankful that you handled it with dignity. How's that for being mature???
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 07/30/07 04:46 AM
I'm not going to Plan FU. It's tempting, because I have so many angry, true things to tell her, but I know that it won't really solve anything, and I would feel worse about it later. High road.

Quote
Saying you can't do one without the other simply means that you are not willing to let God take a stab at it. If you can't have it your way you are just gonna take your ball and go home, huh?

I don't feel that it has to be my way. I am willing to get out of the way, but I'm not sure what that means. I don't know how to think about it or what to do. Do I keep up the Plan B? Do I accept divorce? Do I accept the fact that the SCQ and the POS OM are together? Do I start living my life again? Can I start meeting other people? Do I hope? I honestly don't know, and I'm so tired and starved.

Here's where I am after my walk:

I accept that I am going to be divorced.

In the most recent email, the SCQ wants to know why I haven't started refinancing the house (presumably she wants her share of the equity because we are going to be divorced). Stalling isn't going to work. With the temporary support agreement, it was advantageous to work directly with her rather than let the lawyers handle it, and final dispensation of assets will probably be the same. She has indicated that we don't need to involve the lawyers, so I think I will go ahead and get it over with. Not very plan B.

I do have lots of anger, but I think that I can recognize the sadness underneath it and realize the rest of it as pity for the SCQ. I think I could even start being cordial with her if I chose, but I think that I will keep my distance as much as possible. Why risk losing it and subjecting myself to pain if I don't have to?

I recognize that just because we get divorced doesn't mean it's over for us. The two kids give us every reason to try to make it work, and some day she may figure that out. I intend to leave that possibility open, but I don't think I can sit around on my hands hoping anymore.

As always, I value input and guidance.
Posted By: LilSis Re: How to Think - 07/30/07 11:14 AM
Sadly, I have neither input or guidance.

But I hear you. Every word. We seem to be at a similar place, so if it's any comfort to know that you are not alone, I guess I can offer you that.

I went to the beach yesterday as well....I was just compelled to go, even after being sick, I just needed to be there, by the endless water and endless sky and sand streching forever. I'm glad that for you, it brought some clarity.

((((sdguy))))
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 07/30/07 11:45 AM
sdguy ~ acceptance and letting go do not require you to DO anything but change your thinking.

Did you get the book yet?

We aren't looking at outcomes...we are just looking at what IS today.

There is just nothing for you to DO right now. Be still.

Instead of accept that you are going to get a divorce (this is your fear talking), which we just don't know yet because it hasn't happened....

How about working on acceptance of God's will?

To do that however, you have to work on your anger.

Thats HOW you do this.
Posted By: chrisner Re: How to Think - 07/30/07 03:32 PM
Quote
In the most recent email, the SCQ wants to know why I haven't started refinancing the house (presumably she wants her share of the equity because we are going to be divorced).

Don't do this. This should be spelled out in the required final separation agreement that will be submitted to the court. Things could change right up to the last day. Ask for 60 days after the divorce is final to get the refinance done. She is not entitled to any of the equity prior to the final divorce decree.

I refused to agree to any distribution or split of of the cash and investment assets until the divorce was final. I had every account named and spelled out on the agreement so there was no mistake how these would split.

Remember SD, Wayzilla nearly came apart the last week before the final. It could really happen.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How to Think - 07/30/07 03:46 PM
Guy,

For all things legal, including refinancing for the 'buyout', let the lawyers handle it. I wouldn't even give her an answer on this, except to say that your lawyer handles those details.

Guy, I don't know how to describe the letting go, but it can happen without giving in. I don't know if there is some difference between men and women in this. I was able to let go, and still keep that ember lit. I still have to work on detachment, and letting go.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 07/30/07 05:35 PM
This was my response:

"What is it that you would like to have happen in terms
of refinancing? Are you talking about a final
dispensation of assets? How do you think that should work?"

And this is what she sent this morning:

"Yes this is moving towards final dispensation of assets. I need to be removed from the mortgage and the title. The only way I know to do that is to refinance. One thing that needs to be done is to have the house appraised so you know how much to refinance for in order to buy me out. I don't know if one can hire someone to appraise the house or if you have to do that as part of getting a loan. Maybe your lawyer can give you some advise on how to move this forward. As for other assets isn't there just retirement funds (IRAs and work accounts) and investment accounts (mutual fund things), right?"

This sounds more like she wants to be divorced rather than she wants the money. So you guys think I should send the "I do marriage, my lawyer does divorce" message?

Quote
acceptance and letting go do not require you to DO anything but change your thinking.

Did you get the book yet?

We aren't looking at outcomes...we are just looking at what IS today.

There is just nothing for you to DO right now. Be still.

I had to reorder the book, so I don't have it yet.

I've been trying to figure out how to think about this for months. What is it that I need to accept? That this happened for a reason? That I can't change it? That there is nothing that I can DO?
Posted By: chrisner Re: How to Think - 07/30/07 06:29 PM
Things can happen between now and the final decree. Good things or bad things. Someone could get hit by a bus (hopefully POSOM). Hmmmm Posum, that’s pretty good! Someone could lose their job. Someone could realize that Posum is a Posom!
On and on.

Talk to your attorney. He may want to do an appraisal prior to the final settlement with an appraiser who specializes in court and divorce work and set the value on the settlement. They tend to be very thorough and fair. If you go that way get a list of lenders that work with him/her so it does not have to be repeated when you do the refinance. The settlement will specify how much time you have to get the refinance done. 60 days is a typical number. Goofy things can happen with the title company during the refinance and closing so get an appropriate time frame.

Remember since it is a buyout your new mortgage loan is likely to go up significantly along with your house payment. These should be considerations for any maintenance she requests.

Her attorney will have to prepare a Quitclaim deed for her for the title company so she can be removed from the title. If it was not about money that is all she would have to do to to be free of the house. It's about the money.

She can wait.

Let you attorney handle the divorce.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How to Think - 07/30/07 06:32 PM
I, personally, think it's time for that message. Let the lawyers deal with this. Do you really want this to be a nice experience for her? Should it be? I'm seriously asking.

If you are tired of her [censored], leave it for your lawyer to sift through; you could be doing yourself a disservice by not letting those with the know how take care of this settlement. That's what you pay them for. Do not settle on divorce BEFORE the divorce.

I would forward the email, or paraphrase the email, to your lawyer and ask him/her to take care of this. Let the lawyer know what YOU want to do, and what you want to avoid doing. It is their job.

These emails, no matter how benign you think they are, are insidious, will get under your skin and fester. Do not talk settlement, have her contact your lawyer. Have SIL reply, telling SCQ to talk to your lawyer.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 07/30/07 08:37 PM
Quote
Do you really want this to be a nice experience for her? Should it be? I'm seriously asking.

The answer is no, of course. In a different email, she gave me her checking account number so that I can transfer the support directly to her account, and then we can close the joint account. My inclination is to not do this, because I want her to have to come and get the money. Let it be a reminder that this money does not magically appear. I will ultimately lose this fight, but I guess I could accomplish much the same thing by sending paper checks.

But I'm right on the fence here. A part of me says that she should have to do all of the dirty work and make her experience divorce as the ugly thing that it is. Another part says that I should just get it over with and that working out our own agreement prior to legalizing it will save me tens of thousands of dollars. I'm all over the place.

I'll talk to my lawyer. Even if I talk settlement directly with her, I'll do it with my lawyer's advice.

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These emails, no matter how benign you think they are, are insidious, will get under your skin and fester.

Oh, I get that. I don't think they're benign at all--I know exactly how they affect me. It's why getting the whole thing over with is tempting. Her intent seems to be controlling, too. The Sunday kid transfers are supposed to be at noon (not that she ever gets them to my place by noon), but she sent me this text yesterday morning:

"Please drop them off at 12:15. Thanks."

So she got them at 12:40. When I told the kids that the SCQ had asked for a later drop off, DS7 said "she's probably out shopping." Instead of saying, "She's probably up in Oceanside pretending to be mommy to POSOM's kids" I said "yeah, maybe that's it." DS7 looked at me and said "that's what you hope, anyway." My kids are so sharp. And kind and wonderful. They deserve so much better than her.

Sigh. Another protein shake lunch day.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 07/30/07 09:05 PM
sdguy ~ you are simply accepting WHAT IS.

You should accept yourself, as you are.

You should accept other people, as they are.

You should accept the nature of your relationship with those people, as those are.

What Is = Reality

You are still arguing with What You Think Should Be instead of What Is.

Resistance to What Is in favor of What You Think Should Be results in negativity - frustration, anger, fear, resentment - depression.

Acceptance of What Is results in positivity - peace, contentment, freedom, and clarity.

God exists in Today, not in the guilt and anger of the Past, nor in the fear of the Future.

When you step into Today, you step into the presence of God.

With God, all things are possible. More importantly, the best things for you are possible.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/02/07 05:54 PM
I accept that the SCQ does not want to be with me. I accept that the things she has done were not to hurt me. I accept that she is doing what she thinks is best. I accept that she is trying to be a good mother for our children. I accept that when the children are with her (and the POSUM), they are probably not receiving any permanent damage.

I accept that I am probably better off without the SCQ.

I accept that I am a blessed individual. I have two wonderful children, a very loving and supportive family, friends and co-workers and neighbors and on-line supporters who care about me. I have a great job, I live in a great place, and I am healthy (but for depression, which is a drag).

I accept that I have a lot to give and that whatever woman is with me next will be lucky. I accept that right now the SCQ does not deserve to be that woman and that maybe she never will. I accept that maybe she never did, but I also accept that that is in the past and can't be changed. I accept that she is the mother of my children, and I wouldn't undo them for anything in the world.

I accept that, even though I wish some things were different, I cannot control them.

I accept that if I could hold onto these thoughts and feelings all the time (and breathe), maybe my shoulders would stop trying to merge with my ears.
Posted By: chrisner Re: How to Think - 08/02/07 06:02 PM
A very acceptable policy! So let the final healing really begin SD. You deserve it!
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How to Think - 08/02/07 06:29 PM
Here here!
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: How to Think - 08/02/07 08:08 PM
Good for you, sdguy! Now print that out and keep it handy for future reference.

Fox
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 08/03/07 01:21 AM
woah there sdguy...not so fast.

Quote
I accept that the SCQ does not want to be with me.

This is not acceptance. This is judgement.

Acceptance is:

I accept that, for today, my wife chooses to live with another man.

Quote
I accept that the things she has done were not to hurt me.

This is not acceptance. This is judgement.

You don't know what her motivations were.

Acceptance is:

I can not cause, control or cure adultry in another person, including my wife.

Quote
I accept that when the children are with her (and the POSUM), they are probably not receiving any permanent damage.

This is not acceptance. This is not even true. They probably ARE being damaged.

Acceptance says:

I accept (not approve!) that my children are being harmed by the presence of active adultry in their lives. I accept that I can not remove the influence of addiction brought into their lives by their mother. I accept that I can add the influence of a good example in their lives by being the best father I can be.

Quote
I accept that I am probably better off without the SCQ.

This is not acceptance. "Probably" is a guess because you can not know. Acceptance doesn't deal with guessing. Acceptance is about reality.

Acceptance is:

I accept that I am better off without SCQ as she is today. (You can not and do not know the future SCQ, so TODAY's SCQ is the only one you can accept.)

Quote
I accept that I have a lot to give and that whatever woman is with me next will be lucky.

More future stuff. Relationships are not luck. This is not acceptance.

Quote
I accept that right now the SCQ does not deserve to be that woman and that maybe she never will.

Better....I would leave off the "maybe she never will" because you don't know, but at the same time, reality does include the fact that she may continue to choose the same thing she is choosing today.

Quote
I accept that maybe she never did,

Are you re-writing history? This is a judgement.

Quote
but I also accept that that is in the past and can't be changed. I accept that she is the mother of my children, and I wouldn't undo them for anything in the world.
.
I accept that, even though I wish some things were different, I cannot control them.

FINALLY.

Let me remind you - letting go is NOT GIVING UP.

Letting go is where you simply live in today and make choices based on the reality of today instead of the fear of tomorrow or the guilt of the past.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/03/07 03:48 AM
I accept that there is some good stuff in there. I accept that I knew I didn't have it all quite right and that BR would point out where my thinking is flawed.

I accept that, for today, the SCQ chooses to live with another man. I accept that she is doing what she thinks is best and is trying to be a good mother for our children. I accept that I can not cause, control, or cure adultery in another person, including my wife.

I accept (but do not approve) that my children are being harmed by the presence of active adultery in their lives. I accept that I can not remove the influence of addiction brought into their lives by their mother. I accept that I can add the influence of a good example in their lives by being the best father I can be. [this is much better than the one I had]

I accept that I am way better off without SCQ as she is today.

I accept myself: I am a blessed individual. I have two wonderful children, a very loving and supportive family, friends and co-workers and neighbors and on-line supporters who care about me. I have a great job, I live in a great place, and I am healthy (but for depression, which is a drag).

I accept that BR caught me calling some things acceptance that were really me listing some other thoughts and calling them acceptance because it would make my post sound cooler.

I accept that I have a lot to give to a relationship, but right now the SCQ does not deserve to be in one with me. I accept that it is tempting to rewrite history. I also accept that what is in the past can't be changed. I accept that the SCQ is the mother of my children, and I wouldn't undo them for anything in the world.

I accept that, even though I wish some things were different, I cannot control them.

I accept that if I could hold onto these thoughts and feelings all the time (and breathe), maybe my shoulders would stop trying to merge with my ears.

Today I ate lunch AND dinner. Must be doing something right. I accept that this statement did not start with acceptance.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 08/03/07 10:25 AM
YES!!

Holey moley you got it, AND with a sense of humour. (with acceptance, it is much easier to not take ourselves too seriously).
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/04/07 02:06 AM
I got a massage after work and then went for a long beach walk. On the walk, I realized that the attractive woman I chatted with while I was checking out and she was waiting for her massage was flirting with me.

I accept that among my personas (Super Dark Guy and Guy Smiley) is another one: Captain Oblivious.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 08/04/07 02:36 AM
amazing what you notice going on in TODAY when you are not in the past or future.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/06/07 11:21 PM
I'm posting a weekend email exchange with the SCQ. Her emails go to my intermediary, who removes very-triggering content and forwards them. The SCQ does not know she is edited. The first message is a repeat of one she sent a while back that I think I already posted but never replied to.

As always, I'm looking for opinions on how I'm doing. Also, she is really pushing the weekend thing, and I'm sure it's so that she can take the kids on weekend trips with OM (without having to ask my permission). I'm stonewalling on that issue for that reason and because I want to have a weekend day with my kids every week. I don't want to go that long without seeing them. Strategies welcome. For right now, I am leaning toward "ignore."

I don't think I let this bog me down too much.


SCQ (July 27) :You can have them the Friday 17-Sunday 19 to go camping.

With day-care provider off the week of the 13th when do you want them on Wednesday?

Here is my checking account number, xxx. Money can be transferred to that account instead of the joint. Once I get my life insurance off of the joint account I won't need it any longer.

paraphrased by intermediary: (Short paragraph asking about status of house refinancing. She would like to have the process started by 8/1 or to know why not. She doesn't think the lawyers should be necessary, but is willing to seemingly-threaten that route. I thought that was the route you preferred for that kind of business?)

Weekends need to be revisited. I would like to change the arrangements for each of us to have full weekends (F-Sun) with the kids every other week. For long weekends those need to be worked out separately. When there is a long weekend due to a holiday one of us should have the kids the whole weekend. We can either work this out for each year or switch off each year. So the weekends I'm talking about are Memorial Day, Labor Day, 4th of July if it touches a weekend. Are there others?


SCQ (Friday—paraphrased by intermediary): SCQ has sent an email attached at the top of her email from July 27, asking for a reply. She would like a confirmation from you that you want the entire weekend of the 17th. She says, "Wednesday day-care provider is off is taken care of." She wants to know why you deposited money into the joint account rather than her own. She asks for comments about the proposed weekend change and about 3 day weekends.


SDG (Sat am): I'm meeting with my lawyer next week. We can discuss settlement after that.

If you are offering, I will take the kids the weekend of the 17th.

I am not interested in renegotiating custody for weekends at this time.



SCQ (Sat am): After next week is fine.

The weekend of the 17th I have always said that if you were taking them camping you could take them. If you are not taking thing camping since your parents are here then the weekend stays as it is scheduled.

The weekend suggestion is not dead. It will continue to come up again and again. The 3 day holiday weekends need to be discussed and will be added to the final agreement.


SCQ (Sat am, 30 mins later): For normal weekends would even consider having a mixed weekend agreement where some weekends are split and other aren't, 1 complete weekend each and the others as they are now?


SDG (Sat afternoon): We can talk again about weekends in a few months. I'm not willing to discuss it now.

I will let you know by tomorrow whether or not we're going camping.

When you bring the kids by tomorrow, can you please not come to the door? I would prefer not to see or hear you. It is too painful when I know that things could be so different. Even now, this is not what I want. I believe that the best environment for our children is one in which their natural parents are in love with one another, and I still believe that this is possible. What do you think is best for DS7 and DD4?



SCQ (Sat afternoon): How about Labor Day weekend. Do you want them all weekend since I had them for Memorial Day weekend or should I take them all weekend?

Changing to complete weekends will allow you not to hear or see me when our children are exchanged since it will almost always occur through daycare. Even doing it for 2 weekends a month would reduce your opportunity of seeing/hearing me. Otherwise leave the door unlocked, don't be outside and I won't yell or come in. Beyond that I cannot help what you will hear and see.


SDG (Sun eve): We are going to go camping, but we probably won't stay the whole weekend. If you want, we can swap the Fri-Sat for Sun, and I will bring them over at noon on Sunday. If you have other plans, we can keep them Sunday, too.


SCQ (Mon afternoon): You can have them the whole weekend. It makes more sense to have the kids the entire weekend. Which is why I proposed the change so that either one of us can actually plan something for the weekend. Each us of having to involve the other person every weekend we want to do something that takes more than 1 days is not practical. On paper the schedule we worked out seemed fine but in practice it really doesn't work. The weekend really is just Saturday. It would be better if they settled in for the 2 complete days on the weekend.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How to Think - 08/06/07 11:44 PM
Will having them a whole weekend be better for the kids? As for drop offs and pick ups, I would propose to her that the children approach the front door on their own; that they enter to home on their own, without SCQ coming to the door at all. They are 4 and 7, both perfectly capable of walking to the door on their own. This is how it was with my DS. PWC would drop his stuff on the front porch and take off; DS would ring the bell and/or let himself in.

If you really do not want to be without them for a full weekend, then I say keep things status quo until the final hearings. Make this about the kids and YOU, not about SCQ. What do you wand for the children right now, and what meshes better for you?
Posted By: LilSis Re: How to Think - 08/07/07 12:06 AM
FWIW, I think ignore is a perfectly appropriate response. You've already said what needed to be said. Don't let her draw you out, even if it's just to re-state the same response.

(although it appears you will have to confirm that you want them thru Sunday)

Remember my intermediary's philosophy? "How can we respond with the fewest words/letters as possible?" OK and FINE were favs.

Lord knows I'm not a Plan B pro, but others would probably tell you that you shouldn't engage in any relationship talk while in Plan B. However, this might have been one of the olive branches that needs extending from time to time...???

Or then again, maybe it's an attempt to control, to DO something? Maybe you are pushing a button to see what, if anything, happens?

I'm not making any judgements about this, because I know that you are doing the very, very best that you can for your kids and yourself. I would just encourage you to examine your motives and make sure you are honest with yourself about them. Just so YOU know where you are really coming from.

What do I know? I'm less than two months from a D myself. I've finally come to the realization/conclusion that WH is SO far gone that there is truly and honestly NOTHING I can do to sway him. (DUH says the peanut gallery.) There is no point in pushing ANY buttons because the circuits are all blown.
.....and re-wired by a mad scientist bent on destruction, Dr. Ratturd.
....or re-wired to an explosive device: the A-bomb.
....and always remember to stay away from downed power lines.

The stupid metaphors just don't quit.

Anyway, you are great and she is nuts.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How to Think - 08/07/07 01:10 AM
Quote
I'm less than two months from a D myself. I've finally come to the realization/conclusion that WH is SO far gone that there is truly and honestly NOTHING I can do to sway him. (DUH says the peanut gallery.) There is no point in pushing ANY buttons because the circuits are all blown.


I second what Sis says here, this is a realization I came to, also, what seems like not so long ago. DUH, and don't call me PEANUT! I think guy smiley is getting there, too.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/07/07 02:51 AM
Quote
Lord knows I'm not a Plan B pro, but others would probably tell you that you shouldn't engage in any relationship talk while in Plan B. However, this might have been one of the olive branches that needs extending from time to time...???

Or then again, maybe it's an attempt to control, to DO something? Maybe you are pushing a button to see what, if anything, happens?

You're talking about this bit, right?

Quote
I would prefer not to see or hear you. It is too painful when I know that things could be so different. Even now, this is not what I want. I believe that the best environment for our children is one in which their natural parents are in love with one another, and I still believe that this is possible. What do you think is best for DS7 and DD4?

I wasn't sure about throwing that in. I wanted to tell her not to come to my door (to avoid being triggered by contact), but I didn't want the message to be "I don't ever want to see or hear you again." So I tossed in some "this is not what I want" verbiage (Jennifer has said that this is okay and to be encouraged from time to time). I had no expectations that it would change anything. I intended to tell my intermediary that I didn't need to see any response to that because I didn't really care what it was. So it wasn't an attempt to control (although I accept that the last question "what do you think is best for the kids" was, um, controlling, or at least not consistent wtih the purpose of the rest of the comment *looks around quickly for BR*).

Now, if you want to call me on the weekends issue, yeah, part of what I'm doing is trying to prevent her from taking the kids on weekend travel with the POSOM. My thinking is that 1) I want to see my kids every weekend. 2) the schedule hasn't been a problem for me--I tell her what I want the kids for, and she has always agreed. 3) she has asked me for a weekend only one time. I agreed to let her have the weekend if she agreed not to bring the POSOM, which she, of course, did anyway. Where are all the problems and evidence that the schedule isn't working? The only problem is that she doesn't want to have to get my approval to take the kids with the POSOM, to which I say "tough ******.") 5) I'll renegotiate weekends in a few months if and when his divorce is complete when what they are doing is no longer adultery.

It feels like split motives to me. 50:50 that I want the time with my kids and that I don't want to make it easy for her to take fun vacations with the POSOM (of which I do not approve). I guess it's this reasoning that I wanted to check with the peanut gallery on--am I being reasonable here?

It's tempting to get into it with her (weekends haven't been a problem for me; when and how has this been a problem for you?), but I won't because I don't like wrestling with pigs or trying to reason with boulders.

Thanks, as always, for the input, SL and Sis.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: How to Think - 08/07/07 03:08 AM
Screw her. She can never have a three day weekend with the kids for the rest of her life for all you care. Oh, and it's still adultery if the OM is still married.

Just ignore her. When she brings it up again, ignore her again. Don't budge.
Posted By: LilSis Re: How to Think - 08/07/07 10:51 AM
Yep, it was the first bit to which I was referring. Again, I just raised it as an exercise in examining your motivations (which isn't something that I might ordinarily recognize, so it felt like a good catch).

Stick to your guns; YOU should be the one calling the shots. You are not being unreasonable. Your rationale is about YOU and the kids, not about controlling HER (well, maybe the "don't want to give her the freedom to go off with POSOM" part, but as long as that's just the icing on the cake).

So you do what you need to do.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/07/07 09:45 PM
OMW called me this morning and left a message asking if I wanted to talk. I haven't heard anything from her since March or April but was told by the SCQ in May that POSOM has full legal and physical custody of his kids.

Should I call back? I'm curious to hear what's going on over on her side. Can I do it without getting dragged into any drama?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/07/07 09:54 PM
Quote
Yep, it was the first bit to which I was referring. Again, I just raised it as an exercise in examining your motivations (which isn't something that I might ordinarily recognize, so it felt like a good catch).

It was a good catch, Sis. I expected to get questions about it. I wish I could take back the last line ("What do you think is best for DS7 and DD4?").

I can't remember the exact quotes from the SCQ, but I can remember her using the words "Mr. High and Mighty" and something about "whose morality." Without speculating on her motivations and feelings, I think this feeds into me learning humility. And I think that that last line shows that I still have work to do.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 08/07/07 11:18 PM
Sis is right - don't make me swing the 2x4 over here!

Your responses should be minimal.

SCQ: Do you want the kids on the 17th (blah blah blah discussion about why that your intermediary should have filtered out)

Your response:

Yes.

SCQ: Can we discuss custody arrangements?

You:

No. Send your requests to my attorney.

You: <NOTHING>

....because of course you do not tell your wife to change her behavior to please you. Draw boundaries. Telling your wife to change what she does is control. Either be unavailable at the backdoor or arrange for another type of drop off.
Posted By: LilSis Re: How to Think - 08/07/07 11:37 PM
RE: OMW

I can't imagine having ANY kind of conversation with OMW without being triggered. I'd suggest no. Don't go looking for trouble; you've got plenty on your plate already. It would feed your curiousity, yes, but it wouldn't change a darn thing. The SCQ will crash and burn on her own timeline. Whatever OMW has to say won't change that. Don't give in to it. DARK.

Besides, what's this lady's deal....not even legal custody??? Something's off there. Unless the SCQ is.....lying!!! Gasp.

And as for the "what's best" remark. I guess it's progress if I can begin to recognize it in someone else, not that I can see it in myself. To me you have been a paragon of restraint, so I'm silently cheering, but in the interest of maturity and personal growth....I won't cheer out loud, and I'll acknowledge my cheering side is not the person I want to be.

Nevertheless...."Whose morality?" Hmmm. Let's think. God? Jesus Christ? and probably Budda and Mohammed? Yeah, I can see why she might think you are in pretty poor company.

So go ahead and take stock of your humility, so long as you don't get too down on yourself for making that remark.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/07/07 11:44 PM
Thanks for the input. I think her deal is that she is mentally unstable (bipolar?) is how she lost custody. Or that SCQ is either lying or being lied to. I dunno. IC this afternoon. She'll probably say the same thing. Or ask me clarifying questions until I say it.

Dark. Right.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/11/07 09:53 PM
*crickets chirp*

Plan B is so boring.
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: How to Think - 08/11/07 10:37 PM
SDguy,

How are things going otherwise? Is this your weekend with the kids.

Try to do something for you today. K?

Still
Posted By: hopeandpray Re: How to Think - 08/11/07 11:07 PM
I for one would call OMW and get the scoop on the custody thing to see if it is just another lie of some sort.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 08/11/07 11:18 PM
Quote
*crickets chirp*

Plan B is so boring.

You know you are doing a good job in Plan B when you are bored. It means you are drama free, and have lots and lots and lots of time to look at yourself...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/12/07 04:41 AM
My parents just got here to help out, which is awesome. The kids love grandparent time, and I can kind of relax and recharge my batteries. The kids go back over to the SCQ tomorrow, but today we had a leisurely morning and went to the beach. The water is really warm (75) for Southern California, and we had a good time splashing in the waves. Probably because of global warming. Take secondary gain where you can get it, I guess.

It was tempting, but I haven't called OMW. I did send her a brief email telling her I was curious about what was going on with her but didn't want to generate any big drama. And that she could call me if she wants, but she hasn't.

It will be great if OM is lying about everything. It's hard to imagine how OMW could sound sane every time I talk to her on the phone but lose custody of her kids. On the other hand, maybe I haven't heard anything from her over the past few months because she's been hospitalized. I don't know. But I also don't know what I would do differently based on what I might find out.

I already have good evidence that the POSOM was lying to the SCQ, but he seems to have weasled out of it. If the OMW were to tell me that she didn't lose custody, what would I do with that? Why would the SCQ listen to me? Messengers with that kind of news get killed. Plus, only she can figure it out. I have released her to her fate. I met with my lawyer yesterday and recognize that I will be writing the SCQ a very very large check. I believe that the POSOM is pulling the strings and has plans for that money, and maybe I could figure out what they are by talking to OMW, but I'm trying to let it go. It's her money.

When I think of her now, I alternate between revulsion and pity. And anger, for what she's doing to our children. And because I have to answer them when they tell me they wish she was still home.

There were a lot of attractive women at the beach.
Posted By: hopeandpray Re: How to Think - 08/12/07 04:48 AM
Quote
I already have good evidence that the POSOM was lying to the SCQ, but he seems to have weasled out of it. If the OMW were to tell me that she didn't lose custody, what would I do with that? Why would the SCQ listen to me? Messengers with that kind of news get killed. Plus, only she can figure it out. I have released her to her fate. I met with my lawyer yesterday and recognize that I will be writing the SCQ a very very large check. I believe that the POSOM is pulling the strings and has plans for that money, and maybe I could figure out what they are by talking to OMW, but I'm trying to let it go. It's her money.


CALL The OMW sooner than later and get the truth. If you determine that POSOM is lying to WW about custody simply get a copy of the legal paperwork documenting his lie and mail it to her for her own, blind and delusional eyes to read so that she can have lying POSOM explain it to her.

Also, find out about their little strategy if OMW knows anything.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How to Think - 08/12/07 12:17 PM
I agree that it's good that you are BORED. My opinion, as humble as it is, is to stay out of it, as best you can, don't create any drama. You can send letters and emails and whatever, but they won't crack that thick candy shell she has over her ears and eyes. It has to be her choice to SEE.

I say, leave it be.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/12/07 07:21 PM
Ah, what would a beautiful Sunday in Southern California be without a good trigger.

So, I've spent the last couple of weeks changing ADs, and they're really not working right yet. Mornings are still full of depression for me--the clinical trouble-getting-out-of-bed-my-head-feels-like-it's-full-of-molasses kind. It feels biochemical rather than because I'm obsessing, etc, but it all rolls together into a grey mess inside my head. I meet with my psychiatrist Tuesday to confer.

Anyway, today wasn't really different. I felt initially anxious about the kid transfer at noon, but it eased up a little bit as we got ready, and I started to feel a little bit good, thinking that it was going to be a good afternoon once the transfer was over. I didn't lose it while doing DD4's hair and she had a dialog going about "Mommies aren't supposed to leave their families / I wish Mommy still lived here / Why do I have to go to Mommy's / Is Mommy right or wrong / Is Mommy mean." I mostly listened and said constructive things like "Mommy loves you very much" and "Mommy wants to spend time with you."

So we're just about set to go, and I pick up my cell phone and see that there's a text message:

"Please drop them off at 3. Stuck in traffic. Could be home sooner but do not know. I will let you know. Respond with call or text."

Sigh. We were actually planning to go to the horse races at Del Mar.

I'm not as angry as I might be (which I think is a good sign), but there are certainly plenty of angry responses that come to mind.

Is this about making the weekend transfer inconvenient for me so that I will give in on whole weekends? This is the weekend she wanted me to give up, and I assume that she is traveling with the POSOM, so maybe they just didn't leave as early as they should have. Either way, it's despicable.

Okay. Deep breathing. Then I will enjoy the extra time with my kids.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 08/13/07 01:20 AM
ah hah, I see where this came from...

you are in plan B. you are not communicating with your wife about relationships, yours or hers.

Unless this information will help you legally, or help you expose to her family and friends, you should be ignoring this temptation.

Drama is a Plan B killer. It will simply result in more destruction of your love for her, and THAT is bad for your kids.

Stop it. Or I'll sic Mel and Mimi on ya. (heehee)
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/13/07 05:20 AM
Quote
Resistance to What Is in favor of What You Think Should Be results in negativity - frustration, anger, fear, resentment - depression.

I need to have this tattooed on the inside of my eyelids, because clearly I fell out of this today. I didn't respond to her TM at all and didn't communicate anything until 3:30, when my mom called her and said we'd bring the kids over soon. In the interim, I got a couple of saucy VMs from her (I deleted them mostly unheard).

I spent much of the day thinking of other things I might have said to her if I had responded: "It's okay--they didn't want to come over to your place anyway" or "It's nice that your priorities are so geared toward your children" and plenty of others.

Quote
Unless this information will help you legally, or help you expose to her family and friends, you should be ignoring this temptation.

I actually thought getting info from the court was an elegant solution. No drama for the other three players, and maybe I find out something useful. If he is baldface lying to her that badly, it might make a difference in terms of my stamina. Her family is worthless and she has few (and no real) friends.

Quote
Drama is a Plan B killer. It will simply result in more destruction of your love for her, and THAT is bad for your kids.

You need not quote my comments above. I know that you were talking about drama for me, not the others. I'm just so tired. If this is What Is, then why am I not meeting other people?
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 08/13/07 10:07 AM
Because What Is is not necessarily What Will Be.

And because you are a good father, and a good husband.

Because you are choosing to do what is right in the face of grave wrong.

And even if we *knew* that she was never coming home, you are in no shape to meet other people.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/13/07 04:24 PM
*sigh*
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: How to Think - 08/13/07 04:39 PM
((((sdGUY)))))

IT'S ROUGH GRIEVING!

(((sd))))
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How to Think - 08/13/07 04:51 PM
Guy Smiley,

The direction you are being given by BR is so dead on in Plan B. You are not doing a good plan B if you are trying to dig up court records to show to your WW to GET her to GET IT.

It's a waste of your precious time.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/13/07 04:57 PM
But. . . but. . . yeah, okay.

Quote
Resistance to What Is in favor of What You Think Should Be results in negativity - frustration, anger, fear, resentment - depression.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How to Think - 08/13/07 05:02 PM
I know, guy, BR really does nail it, in no uncertain terms; don't you just hate that?!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/13/07 05:13 PM
I printed out the exchange BR and I had where she told me what acceptance meant and then I took a stab at acceptance and then she deconstructed my attempt and then I rewrote my homework and got passing grades. And I took that exchange and read it to my IC, and before I got very far into it, she used the word "brilliant." I could say more, but I don't want BR's head to swell up too much, because she might get all self-important and stop helping me.

Quote
in no uncertain terms

I find that this works for me. Paging Captain Oblivious . . . .

edit: You should have seen how hard I laughed at her response when she caught me asking the legal question.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 08/13/07 05:47 PM
good thing I don't require that external validation to have a swelled up head....<snicker>
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 08/13/07 05:49 PM
Quote
I know, guy, BR really does nail it, in no uncertain terms; don't you just hate that?!

that's just because I need someone to put the dots really really close for me before I get something...
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How to Think - 08/13/07 06:26 PM
yeah, we're good at helping you connect those dots, aren't we, heh heh.

guy, I laughed out loud when she caught you. Mimi does that to me all of the time. I really do make it easy to connect those dots...
Posted By: chrisner Re: How to Think - 08/13/07 07:17 PM
Hey SD. I am sort of like the quiet little intern following the doctors on their teaching rounds hiding in the back hoping no one askes me anything.

Sound like you are getting a lot of good thoughts these days. Keep listening and hanging tough Amigo.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 08/14/07 12:06 AM
so...........<tap tap tap>.........

Did you ever get the book?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/14/07 02:31 AM
Yes, and I've even read a few of the meditations. But more importantly,I'm sleeping with the book under my pillow, so I know that all the wisdom will diffuse into my head during the night.

Quote
And even if we *knew* that she was never coming home, you are in no shape to meet other people.


What do you mean? You see something wrong with me proposing to the first woman that smiles at me?

There's a disconnect in here somewhere -- I'm accepting what is and not thinking/worrying about the future but going without getting any of my emotional needs met for, jeez, how long? I would explore this further, but I know that you would just whack me upside the head with a 2x4. It's probably better to say "Yes, ma'am" and then maybe flirt with women when you're not looking.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 08/14/07 03:28 AM
I have eyes on the back of my head.

And you have to crack the dang book to make it work. Contrary to popular belief, using it as a pillow will not absorb diddley squat.

Go to the index. Look up acceptance.

Start reading.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 08/14/07 03:37 AM
Even better, read July 20th. It was written for you. It's titled Letting Go of Resistance...

Is that Odd or is it God?
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 08/14/07 03:41 AM
Not having needs met is not an excuse to cheat on your wife. You are a married man.

I suspect that you NEED to respect the man looking back at you in the mirror more than you need to other ENs.

I suspect that you NEED to be able to honestly look at your children's faces and say you did EVERYTHING including WAITING for your wife.

You don't want to be that dad who says: Sorry kids, I had an itch that needed scratching...

Find ways to get some of your needs met that don't involve a member of the opposite sex.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/14/07 05:25 AM
Yes, ma'am.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/14/07 05:54 AM
Okay, so we all knew that last post was coming, right?

July 20.

"Do not be in such a hurry to move on.

Relax. Breathe deeply. Be. Be in harmony today.

Be open. There is beauty around and in us today. There is purpose and meaning in today.

There is importance in today -- not so much in what happens to us, but in how we respond.

Let today happen. We learn our lessons, we work things out, we change in a simple fashion: by living our life fully today.

Do not worry about tomorrow's feelings, problems, or gifts. Do not worry about whether we can trust ourselves, life, or our Higher Power tomorrow.

Everything we need today shall be given to us. That is a promise -- from God, from the Universe.

Feel today's feelings. Solve today's problems. Enjoy today's gifts. Trust yourself, life, and your Higher Power today.

Acquire the art of living fully today. Absorb the lessons, the healing, the beauty, the love available to us today.

Do not be in such a rush to move on. There is no hurry. We cannot escape; we only postpone. Let the feelings go; breathe in peace and healing.

Do not be in such a hurry to move on.

Today, I will not run from myself, my circumstances, or my feelings. I will be open to myself, others, my Higher Power, and life. I will trust that by facing today to the best of my ability, I will aquire the skills I need to face tomorrow."

--Melody Beattie, Hazelton Meditation Series; HarperCollins Publishers

I can't remember the last full day that I lived.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 08/14/07 11:03 AM
Well then, today is a good day to live.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/14/07 10:32 PM
Yoga at lunch time. IC later. Neighbor's birthday party later on tonight.

Doing my best to ignore the SCQ. I haven't talked to the OMW and haven't been to the courthouse.

Probably time to buy myself something I don't need, too. Retail therapy.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: How to Think - 08/14/07 10:51 PM
Oh, nevermind....... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Fox
Posted By: LilSis Re: How to Think - 08/15/07 12:17 AM
Yoga....shopping....

Now go someplace great to eat with some good friends and share a bottle of wine. (maybe I'd do that instead of the yoga....hmmmmm....)

Sounds like a FULL day to me! A good day. A day fully lived. A day spent soaking in the great things in the world right around you and not letting the icky things get in the way of it.

I had a "full" day last week: I got together with friends, we drank marguritas, then went to the 4-H fair to play cow-pie bingo. What a trip, cheering that old cow on...if you have to ask, you don't want to know....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/16/07 10:36 PM
Email from the OMW:

"Hi SDGuy,

I called because I was curious how you were doing. I am with you, and it's probably a bad idea for us to talk because it will only stir up emotions - unnecessarily.

I hope all is well with you.
OMW"

So tempting . . . .
Posted By: chrisner Re: How to Think - 08/16/07 11:05 PM
I think if she had something she wanted to tell you she would have thrown out more bait. She probably is wondering if you know anything new.

It probably is best just to stay in the dark.
Posted By: LilSis Re: How to Think - 08/16/07 11:16 PM
Chris is right. Don't take the bait, even if it is well-intentioned bait. You just don't need a hook in your mouth right now. Whatever she has to say or wants to hear will just end up taking you a place you don't want or need to go.

Like SL says: keep on swimming.

((((sdguy))))
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/16/07 11:22 PM
I agree.

What I want to know is whether she has any custody of her children, but I'm not sure how to ask that without stirring up emotions. "Um, by the way, they said you were so crazy that . . . ."

Dark it is.

Letting Go Without Being Done is hard. I'm still working on the acceptance part, because it comes and goes. The anger still comes occasionally, but not intensely and not for very long. Sometimes the conversations go on in my head, but even those aren't too bad. I got out the journal again last night, but I didn't have too much to say.

I wish I felt better, though. Some of the depression is situational, but I think more of it is biochemical, and I'm hoping new meds kick in soon.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/16/07 11:23 PM
Thanks, guys!
Posted By: LilSis Re: How to Think - 08/16/07 11:28 PM
Quote
Letting Go Without Being Done is hard. I'm still working on the acceptance part, because it comes and goes. The anger still comes occasionally, but not intensely and not for very long. Sometimes the conversations go on in my head, but even those aren't too bad.
Same here, so--Yay!--we must be normal. Moving forward in our recovery....
Posted By: LilSis Re: How to Think - 08/17/07 12:12 AM
SD: Good sig line. I needed that reminder today... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/17/07 12:55 AM
I keep hoping it will sink in. Without having to get brained by BR, that is.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 08/17/07 01:14 AM
January 20th is very interesting.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/17/07 02:00 AM
Jeez, now I gotta go dig the thing out from under my pillow.

It was spot-on, as usual.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/17/07 07:28 AM
Triggered. I'm going to write it up and put it away quickly. I LB'ed, too. Dammit.

Last Friday there was a message on our home answering machine from one of the SCQ's friends from college (D). The only one she had any contact with post-college, and that was sparse. She read at our wedding. D and her family are coming to San Diego and would we like to get together. I return D's call and talk with her on the phone for a while--I explain the situation, where I am and what I'm doing and give her contact info for the SCQ (the SCQ had told her nothing, of course). D asks me about getting our kids together while she's here, tells me how sorry she is, tells me to stay in touch, sounded like she disapproved of what the SCQ is doing.

Our daycare provider is currently on vacation, and my parents are watching the kids during the day. The first two days of this week were the SCQ's. On one of those days, she picked up the kids from my place and went to Seaworld with D and her family. Then on Tuesday she asked my mom if she could have the kids again this afternoon to do somethng with them again. We (mom) said sure.

She picks up the kids at around 5:30, before I am home. They're going down to D's resort hotel. No drop off time is discussed, but my mom is assuming something like 9, so she's sitting around kind of waiting for the kids to get home starting at about that time. 10 rolls around. Mom has gone to bed but offers to call to find out what's going on. At 5 til 11, I finally call, but there is no answer. There's a call to the house at 11:05 or so, and she says she'll be bringing the kids by in 10 or 15 minutes.

Knowing that DD4 will be asleep in the car, I wait near the door so that I can get her and carry her in. It's 11:25 when she rolls in. I go out to the car--she's trying to wake up DD4, but I say that I'll get her.

I say "It's kind of late." She says "What...it's only a half hour past their bed time." I honestly don't know what to make of this, so I say "It's kind of late to be bringing them home." Then she splutters at me what's the big deal/it's not like it's a school night/your parents are watching them--they can sleep in tomorrow/you or your mom could have called if you were concerned. I don't think I said anything in return.

As I'm going in, she says "You know, I was going to say thank you, but you kind of ruined it." She makes to drive away, and I walk back out to tell her that what she should be doing is apologizing for bringing the kids home so late and are you really that inconsiderate. But I didn't say those things. I heard a couple more lines of you could have called bla bla bla, kind of put up my hands in surrender, and went inside.

Sigh.

Should have made sure they would be home at a time at which I wouldn't have to see the SCQ. Should have not said anything to her. Probably shouldn't have given her the extra time tonight (but she's giving me the weekend to take the kids camping). Shouldn't have recapped for my parents how incredulous I was that she got mad at me in front of my son (apologized to him later, although I think the worst I said was that Sorry is a word that she doesn't know).

What else?
Posted By: LilSis Re: How to Think - 08/17/07 11:02 AM
I'll let the others help you work through it, and help you learn something about yourself.

What's done is done. I don't happen to think it's the end of the world. She is just so into herself. It is incredibly frustrating to deal with someone who lacks the good sense to communicate what time she will bring the kids home. Grrrrr....

Really, the only tactical mistakes you made were not confirming a return time, (or expecting her to have a sensible one)....or expecting her to be courteous enough to call and let you know how late it would be. The kids were probably having a blast with the other kids, and SCQ was visiting with her friend....I would expect a late night. She should have anticipated this as well, and that should have been communicated.

Anyway, FWIW, I think you demonstrated a boatload of restraint. You're good. Is your tongue still attached or have you biten it off completely?

Anyway, I'll take a stab here at a couple of things from an outsiders perspective:

I wonder if part of what triggered you was the fact that she spent time with D. Did you have an expectation based on your conversation with her that D might be less eager to spend time with SCQ? (this is a big issue for me as you know)

Also, there's something there about making judgements about her parenting. Your remark to her seems as if it was interpreted as an "attack" on her as a mom...when you imply that you were REALLY just pissed that she was so incredibly rude and thoughtless not to call. So did you turn your anger into something that would hurt her more...just to hurt her?

I mean, you COULD have said, "Next time I would appreciate a phone call if you intend to bring them home after X:00." (is their bedtime really 11? or is she just that clueless?)

Instead, you provided commentary on her parenting. I guess I would encourage you to be very honest with yourself about what you chose to say and why.

Again, not to make excuses for her, but I can totally see how it turned into a late night...visiting with friends, especially when the kids are occupied with one another and having a good time. This happens, and the kids may be crabby the next day, but they are not permanently damaged (and it's convenient that she's not the one who has to deal with the crabbiness). BUT she absolutely without a doubt should have communicated that with you.

She was probably trying to press your buttons. And it worked. But not as well as she wanted, I bet, because you didn't say the stuff that was on the tip of your tongue.

Lesson learned: pin down a return time in advance. Move on.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 08/17/07 11:56 AM
Do you get angry because the sky is blue?

Water is wet?

Rocks are hard?
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How to Think - 08/17/07 12:34 PM
Quote
No drop off time is discussed


Always have this nailed down, even if it does end up being 11PM, you will be prepared. You did not have to go out and get your DD from the vehicle, you chose to. Let SCQ handle the children the way she does when they are in her care. It is disrespectful to interrupt her, or take over.

Speaking to SCQ AT ALL was a mistake in Plan B; you know this, but you were angry and lashed out at her. I stay up late with my son, now and then, during the week, to catch a movie together or to just BE together more that evening. It's not the end of the world.

Quote
"You know, I was going to say thank you, but you kind of ruined it."

Now she SHOULD have just thanked you anyway, but she justified NOT saying it because you lashed out at her.

Let it go. You wouldn't have even needed to respond to a thank you, just let her say it. Also, I know it pisses you off that this whole thing is happening, but spewing venom is not going to change the situation, not by a long shot. It will just reaffirm, in her foggy outlook, that she is RIGHT about you, about leaving. She's certainly not, but she will get reinforcement for that view.

She is in lalaland. Accept that you are digging your own hole by poor interactions, or ANY interactions with SCQ. You cannot reform her, she must choose that herself. What's done is done, and you chastising her doesn't change that. Don't act in a way that you need to apologize for later, to anybody.

Guy smiley, I know this is not easy. YOu can only control you.
Posted By: LilSis Re: How to Think - 08/17/07 02:11 PM
Now....what are YOU going to do today? Are you getting ready for a great camping weekend?

Just as "What Is" is, this is done and over. You may have stumbled a little, but you recognized it and acknowledge it. You are going through a lot, and you are learning a lot. This time, you learned through a mistake.

Let it go. Enjoy your weekend; enjoy your kids.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How to Think - 08/17/07 02:15 PM
Maybe you can enjoy the crickets chirping yet again; experience the boredom of Plan B, while having fun with the kiddies.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/17/07 05:54 PM
Excellent feedback! Especially this one:

Quote
You did not have to go out and get your DD from the vehicle, you chose to. Let SCQ handle the children the way she does when they are in her care. It is disrespectful to interrupt her, or take over.

I overreacted to the insensitive actions of a wayward spouse (damn that blue sky--it should be more turquoise). Getting them home that late wasn't really that big a deal, and me pointing out the lateness just made her defensive.

Sis, I was actually pretty happy for D to spend time with the SCQ. I still have an underlying hope that maybe someone can talk some sense into her, and that D might actually be a person to do it. But what bent me somewhat was suspecting that SCQ wanted the kids along so that there would be no opportunity to talk about anything serious.

Confession: what *really* bent me was after she called and said they would be home soon I couldn't remember whether she said "we'll drop the kids off," so as I stood there waiting I was wondering whether the POSOM was along so that D could meet the new man in her life, whether he was in the car, whether he would be in my driveway. This med switch is really messing me up, so I should have taken a Xanax when I realized how anxious I was. I should have let my parents receive the kids. I should have been reading January 20th.

Sis, good comments about the parenting. It was the insensitivity I was upset about--bringing them home that late without calling or sending a tm. I didn't intend to knock her parenting skills there, although I'm sure that's how she interpreted it.

Sending a note like "I overreacted last night. Next time, can you please tm if you're going to be that late?" is a stupid idea, right?

The good news is that today I actually feel pretty good. I'm looking forward to the camping trip, although it will be hot. Maybe the shoulders will loosen up.
Posted By: LilSis Re: How to Think - 08/17/07 07:25 PM
But we've gotten used to imagining you as a guy in a cape with his shoulders up around his ears!

OH! The overreacting note is a GREAT idea, sd. SOOOO Plan B of you, and of course it will include the magic words that send the fog billowing away to be replaced by TURQUOISE sky and soft rocks and dry water.

I hope the crickets are exceedingly loud this weekend.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How to Think - 08/17/07 07:42 PM
Sis, you crack me up.

Have a great weekend with the kids, guy s!
Posted By: chrisner Re: How to Think - 08/17/07 08:13 PM
Dry Water! That's perfect with bourbon!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/17/07 08:19 PM
Didn't you guys see the Incredibles? Just like Edna says: NO CAPES!
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How to Think - 08/17/07 08:25 PM
I fell asleep to that exact movie last night, as everybody else did, too! That is one of my favorite parts!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/17/07 09:18 PM
Edna's great. She's worth the price of a sequel all by herself.

We're outta here!
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 08/18/07 02:55 AM
You need to read Sept 16, on Revenge...

And Sis if you have the book, Sept 8 is for you.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/20/07 06:02 AM
I sent an email before I left:

"You were right. It wasn't that big a deal that you brought them home that late. Mom seemed to think that they were coming home at around 9, so when it was 11 and we hadn't heard anything, I got a bit bent. I was disrespectful, and I'm sorry about that. Maybe next time you could send a tm or the the like when you're going to be that late."

Here was the repsonse:

"Thank you. You knew that we were going to see D and those kinds of things sometimes go longer than one can control. Since I didn't know exactly what D had planned it was sort of hard to give you an exact time. You can always call or text me too if you need updates."

The apology was for me. It was eye-opening to look back and see how disrespectful I was, and I felt bad about it. But it was a dumb Plan B thing to do because I can't help but notice that nowhere in this message or the other night did she accept any responsibility herself. If anything, her response tells me why I was wrong. This is, I think, why BR asks me if I get angry because the sky is blue. Expecting a WS to accept responsibility or not be insensitive is just silly. I say "I wasn't expecting anything from her in terms of a response," but I think I was hoping there might be some kind of apology.

So long as I didn't expect it to change anything, I don't think it was REALLY dumb. Or even much of a deal, but let fall the 2x4s if there are any out there.

BR, why the one on revenge (not that I didn't like it)? Something you see in my future? Something you think I've been doing? I don't think I've acted on any of these feelings, but I have certainly felt them. And I try to acknowledge them, and try to examine them and put them away. I feel like I have forgiven the SCQ for the affair (as much as is possible at this point). What I'm angry about now is what her behavior is doing and will do to our children. It's ongoing. How do you forgive stuff that hasn't been done yet? Is this something I have to accept? Or adjust my expectations?

Good camping trip. I'll post some details tomorrow.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 08/20/07 08:48 PM
Quote
What I'm angry about now is what her behavior is doing and will do to our children. It's ongoing. How do you forgive stuff that hasn't been done yet? Is this something I have to accept? Or adjust my expectations?

I have a rather unique perspective on forgiveness.

I don't think you have to forgive her for ANYTHING unless she specificially comes to you and acknowledges responsibility and ownership of the those things. To do otherwise is to judge.

Rather than forgiveness, I call it releasing a grudge, letting go of anger...adjusting expectations...

Go back and read your posts describing what you felt and were thinking.

so many judgements and assumptions about what is going on in her head...and you desperately wanting to force her to see it your way...

We can allow ourselves to feel anger. -- You are angry as heck - thats OK.

It is helpful to go one step deeper and let ourselves feel the other feelings - the hurt, the pain, the anguish. -- In my experience, my anger, my stuffed, repressed anger...covered up tremendous hurt and pain. I had to deal with the anger before I could feel the other things.

The problem is you can't repress one emotion and feel the others...as long as you are stuffing the anger...you are stuffing everything..

But our goal is release the feelings, and be finished with them.

You have to feel the emotion - move through the emotion - to let it go.

You can't force and control the emotions to be what you want them to be.

We can hold the other person accountable. We can hold the other person responsible. But it is not our responsibility to be judge and jury.

This is what you were doing, steaming and fuming by the front door, waiting for your wife.

Actively seeking revenge will not help us. It will block us and hold us back.

Breaking Plan B to set her straight....this is what you were doing. It hurts you, and enables her.

July 18th is a good one for you today!

NB: Please forgive all the bloody typos. I can't see them all, due to brain damage from a stroke I had a few years back. I find myself reading a post 3 days later, horrified at how many words I didn't see misspelled!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/20/07 10:14 PM
Quote
Please forgive all the bloody typos. I can't see them all, due to brain damage from a stroke I had a few years back.

I forgive you, BUT I will adjust my expectations based on what you have told me.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How to Think - 08/20/07 10:15 PM
very funny. smarty pants.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How to Think - 08/21/07 01:58 AM
Quote
as long as you are stuffing the anger...

I guess I've known that I'm doing this, only I've called in banking anger, because maybe that sounds healthier. Anger that I believe I will be able to let go of if we reconcile.

As I type this, I think that I am more angry about what I fear will happen than what has already happened. And I am probably more angry and fearful about what will (may) happen because I can't control it. It's easier to look at what did happen and see what was and what wasn't my fault.

It will be easier for me to let go of (rather than forgive) the stuff that has already happened. I think that on some level the SCQ accepts responsibility for what has happened, but not in any way that she could ever face me and say "I did this, and I'm sorry. Can you forgive me?"

So, why am I getting so angry and worrying about forgiving stuff that hasn't happened yet? It's not like I can control that.

BR, are you going to slap me around for the apology email?
Posted By: sdguy038 How long? - 08/21/07 07:19 AM
Revenge. . . anger. . . I needed both of those meditations today. How did you know?

I found the anger. Today my mom had lunch with the SCQ. And then I listened to what she had to say when she got back. There was nothing in what the SCQ said that wasn't part of the script. Any of you could have written it. Typical Fog-talk--not venomous. She did the best she could. Yes, divorce will hurt the kids some, but that's what she wants. She's not trying to hurt me.

So, it's either Fog-talk or reality. If it's fog, it's still very thick, and she's not going to come out of it any time soon, if ever.

My attempt at plan B has been flawed, but I have done the best I can. I know it's flawed--I did plan Lovebust the other night to her, and today I did plan Lovedrain when I let my mom tell me what she found out.

I can't keep going the way I have been. My performance at work has been suffering for way too long, and the kids pick up on how unhappy I am. My friends and family are all concerned for and about me--they think I'm paying too high a price for little or no shot at reconciliation with someone who probably isn't worth it to begin with.

Something has to give. If I can't figure out how to Let Go without Being Done, then I need to Be Done. My IC asks me how I will know when I am done, and a couple of months ago I said I've started to realize that my body may give out before my will does. Now I'm afraid my answer will be "when they have to hospitalize me." But that's obviously not the right way. I can't figure it out. Or I can't hold onto it.

Anger. Revenge. I want her to hurt for what she's done.

How did you know?
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/21/07 10:52 AM
sdguy ~ no, i am not going to beat you for the email. you apologized for something you did wrong.

the rest of this stuff...

you do realize that you are doing it to yourself right?

have you told your IC about your 'banking anger' theory?

Banking that anger is tearing you apart. Exactly what is your reasoning behind 'saving it for recovery'????? This is why you are depressed and need meds!!!

I hate to tell you this, but you can't be done until you have dealt with this issue. That is the answer to your question, How long? As long as it takes for you to learn the lessons God has put in front of you.

So pray for the willingness to be willing - since your lack of willingness is killing you.

I did the divorce in revenge thing. I tried to force myself to be done. It did not help.

When you feel the need for revenge...PRAY for your wife. Pray to God to change her heart. Ask for His help.

God will not force his help on you, you have to ask for it.

Everytime you CHOOSE to break Plan B, you hurt yourself.

Keep picking the scabs on your wounds, and they will continue to bleed and not heal...

By suppressing, banking your anger, you are punishing yourself in the worst possible way.

Are you journaling? How about a punching bag?

I wrote vicious nasty letters to my husband, pouring out all of my hurt and rage.

I did NOT send those to him.

Short term, it made me very emotional, because I had to FEEL the rage and the pain. But relief and peace was not far behind.

And in my situation, a few months after I found my peace, my husband came home.
Posted By: LilSis Re: How long? - 08/21/07 01:24 PM
((((sd))))

Oh, how I could have written your last post. Work performance (inability to focus or be creative), the kids picking up on the abject unhappiness, concerns of friends and family, wanting to hurt WH....only the "something's got to give thing" has gone down a notch.

What an ugly, awful, pain-filled spot you are in.

I think I'm further along on the letting go thing ONLY because of how awful WH has been. He had to slap me in the face with the violent and unstable thing for me to REALLY see the reality of who WH is; for me to accept (at a superficial level anyway) what IS. There is no H there. For him to say those things--ten months after the fact--clearly indicates that he is operating in a completely different sphere...one that I cannot relate to, one where I cannot go, one that no one can save him from except God.

I also completely, absolutely understand your willingness to let go of what has happened, but the inability to let go of what will be. The pain the kids will experience for the rest of their lives because of the choices that WH is making....he is choosing FOR them.

I'm an adult. I have lived half of my life already. I will be scarred from this, but they will be adult scars, not scars on the tender, innocent flesh of a child. I had a wonderful childhood with two parents who adored one another and who sacrificed repeatedly for us girls. WH is choosing to deny the boys that experience; that possibility.

This is not how it SHOULD BE. Thus the negativity - frustration, anger, fear, resentment - depression.

Sorry for the TJ.

I wish I had advice about how to deal with the anger. Nov. 14, July 7, March 1, July 31,....

Punching pillows seems so danm ineffectual.

How long have you been on that new AD? They say give it six weeks....are you there yet?
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/21/07 01:37 PM
I suggest April 3rd is a good one!
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 08/21/07 02:51 PM
Letting go, for me, was leaving PWC to live his life, without thinking on it anymore. I extracated myself from that. I didn't stop loving him; I don't think it's that easy. I will always love my husband, always, together or apart.

You will find that you cannot be done with a drop of the hat (or wayward, if you will), but you CAN let go just like that. Totally.

I told myself that PWC had made his decision and I must accept that, with all of it's consequences (divorce, losing my home, struggling financially, DS having MAJOR issues with that, single momdom, etc.). I then must begin to live according to what IS and not what I HOPE will be.

I hope this explanation of how I view letting go helps.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/21/07 06:50 PM
Thank you, BR, Sis, and SL. I treasure your words, as always. My head is spinning, trying to figure this stuff out. The anger bank (just something I realized I was doing--not intentional), have I not been talking about things enough? Too much? Suppressing anger? Hoping too much? Is this what I'm supposed to be doing? Supposed to be feeling? Supposed to be, supposed to be, supposed to be. . . Argh!

It doesn't really matter, does it? That's the way it was. I am angry. I am unhappy. I am full of the poison I have been holding in, so I will try to get it out. Get the letters out of my head and onto paper. I will continue to pray for myself and for the SCQ.

I will continue to read. April 3 was perfect.

From April 3: "Stop resisting. . . Resistance and repression will not change a thing. They will put us at war with our thoughts. . . Resisting events or circumstances in our life does not change things, no matter how undesirable the events or circumstances may be. . . Acceptance empowers the events and circumstances for the better. . . Acceptance does not mean we're giving our approval . . . It is not forever. . . It means we accept what is, so we know what to do to take care of ourselves and what boundaries we need to set. It means we accept what is and who we are at the moment, so we are free to change and grow. . . Acceptance and surrender move us forward on this journey. Force does not work. Acceptance and surrender--two concepts that hurt the most before we do them."

I feel like a worm on a fishhook. I'm still resisting--this isn't what I want. It's not the way it should be.

Minor Aha: maybe I think that in order to accept things I have to make them be what I want (hence interest in other people--better ones than the SCQ). How's this: You don't always get what you want, even if you don't feel like you've asked for all that much. Accept it or be miserable.

Sis, only a week on the newest ADs. Not even up to the full dose yet.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 08/21/07 07:52 PM
What dang book are you's guys reading from? Me thinks me needs this book.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/21/07 08:29 PM
The Language of Letting Go -- Daily Meditations for Codependents. Melody Beattie

http://www.amazon.com/Language-Letting-M...927&sr=1-17
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 08/21/07 08:52 PM
Thanks bunches, I just ordered the book. It sounds like a good one for me.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/21/07 09:40 PM
my husband makes a funny joke quite often...


He'll say about any particularly uncomfortable situation: "I deny your reality and replace it with one of my own choosing!"

Of course we both giggle about it because Denial is a deep deep river in both of our family backgrounds..

But in all seriousness...thats what you are trying to do.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/21/07 10:12 PM
Guilty as charged.

Quote
Acceptance does not mean you have to be OK with it.

I think I've been trying to make it okay so that it will be easier to accept. As if I can.

Humility. Is there a day for that?
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/21/07 10:16 PM
How about July 30 on Powerlessness.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/21/07 11:15 PM
Thanks. I read July 31 on Letting Go of What We Want while I was there.

I also wrote a blistering letter to the SCQ (which I won't send, obviously).

I'm feeling drained now. IC later.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: How long? - 08/22/07 09:13 PM
How are you today, sdguy?

I can really relate to the difficulty of distinguishing being ok with something and accepting it.

I felt if I accepted the situation for what it is...that I condoned it because I stopped fighting it. Still have trouble with this sometimes.

Hang in there. We're here.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/22/07 11:13 PM
Thanks for asking, Fox. I'm feeling better today. I let some stuff go (experience tells me that I will probably snatch it back again at some point, but progress is progress).

I think the letter eviscerating the SCQ helped quite a bit. I read it to my IC last night. When she asked me how it felt to read it, I said "Right," as in correct.

I think I'm ready to be divorced. Lord knows everyone around me is ready for me to be divorced. Or at least it sure feels that way.

I mean, it's not like I want to be divorced. But neither do I want to stay married to the SCQ, and there are no signs that she is going to (or is interested in) become my wife again. If she figures it out at some point and I'm still interested, we can always remarry. I've been pretty careful not to shut any doors (like giving her the letter would do).

I don't know. I think my subconscious is desperately trying to make divorce "okay," so that I can accept it. Thoughts welcome.

Going for a massage.
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: How long? - 08/23/07 03:57 AM
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

For me, it's part of the grieving process...a little here and a little there...referring to your "making the D okay"...

I think I know what you are talking about and like I said for me...it's grieving...getting to the point of acceptance...whether I like it or not doesn't matter...

It's the whole process of coming to terms with the reality of the situation...doesn't happen ALL at once...

Just my 2 cents...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You've come a long way! It'll get better...you have a lot going for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: LilSis Re: How long? - 08/23/07 12:01 PM
Quote
I don't know. I think my subconscious is desperately trying to make divorce "okay," so that I can accept it.
I don't think you have to think it's okay in order to accept it. It isn't okay...none of this is even remotely okay. SCQ should never ever have done what she did and continues to do. It is NOT okay to end a marriage because of simple selfishness.

Do not let yourself start to believe that. You are on the high road.

Nonetheless, it is the reality. Right now. You can accept that.

Reality does NOT equal okay.

Sometimes I try to think of it as if it's "just business." Which of course it is NOT...it is so very VERY much more than that! Maybe it's easier for me to "accept" when I consciously strip away the emotional element long enough to deal with the "business" end of it all. Then later, when it's safe, when I've done what I need to do, I can let myself feel the emotion.

And hopefully let it go.
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: How long? - 08/23/07 01:13 PM
I think that you thinking it's just business is the easiest way for you to detact...

For the time being at least...that's fine if that's what you have to do for the time being...

Smiley, accepting does not mean approving like Sis said...

It's a sad matter, and it's okay to feel that way, but it is reality and you have done SOOO much to step up to the plate...

your honor and intregity stand true...and your kids see that and will continue to see that!!! have hope that one day they will come to you and thank you for everything that you have done...THEY KNOW, WE KNOW!!! AND YOU KNOW!!!

Most importantly, God knows...you'll be okay...one day at a time...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 08/23/07 03:00 PM
Maybe the trick is dealing with what IS today. That includes, marriage, job, kids, OM, etc. and so on. See it for what it is, not what it could be or what it was (including whatever spin or revision you've placed upon that). Accept it today, and then start over tomorrow.

Accepting a divorce, when it hasn't happened, is getting ahead of what IS. Accept what IS today.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/23/07 03:24 PM
yer darn lucky SL got to you first! (puts down the 2x4)

TODAY is not tomorrow.

To try to force yourself to be OK with what is going on is another form of suppression.

It is NOT OK. Its OK to acknowledge that ITS NOT OK.

What your wife has done is AWFUL. She has hurt you and hurt your children. ITS WRONG. 100% WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Accept your feelings AS THEY ARE.

Did you tell your IC that you were "Banking your anger for recovery?"
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 08/23/07 03:35 PM
SL, heh heh heh, tiptoeing away with her 2x4...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/24/07 12:52 AM
Thanks for the comments, Rin, SL, Sis, and BR. Keep your 2x4s handy.

Quote
To try to force yourself to be OK with what is going on is another form of suppression.

I don't think I explained myself all that well. I know that this situation is not okay. I know that what the SCQ is doing is awful and hurts me, my children, and herself. She hurts the OMW and their children, too. I know this. Divorce is wrong, especially in a marriage that is clearly salvagable, like mine. I accept that this sucks. I accept that I cannot fix things the way I want them, but shouldn't I attempt to improve my situation?

Quote
Accept your feelings AS THEY ARE.

I feel bad. I want to feel better.

Divorce is coming. The SCQ wants to know whether I want to negotiate directly with her on final dispensation of assets because she thinks we can work out an agreement. If not, she'll go through the lawyers. Obviously, everything has to go through the lawyers at some point, but I'm fairly certain I will get a better deal if I start talking with her directly as opposed to if her lawyer starts talking with mine. That's what happened with the support agreements, and I think I could save tens of thousands of dollars here. Probably it's because she feels guilty, but I feel like I should take advantage of that, because divorce is coming. She made it clear to my mom the other day that she wants to be divorced.

Taking some initiative (and yes, getting a little control) in the process--getting a better settlement will make things a little more "okay" for me. As opposed to waiting around for the lawyers to tell me how big a check to write.

And then there's [puts on hardhat] companionship. It's been, what, 20 months since D-Day? More than that since there was any kind of connection or attempt to meet my needs. She has been essentially unwavering in her march away from me. And it hurts. I miss companionship. It's more than getting an itch scratched. And seriously, how long am I supposed to wait? I respect that I am still married but really don't feel like I owe her anything in terms of fidelity at this point. But I don't want to get involved with anyone while I'm still married. I don't really want to get "involved" at all. I want to have dinner and maybe walk on the beach and talk about stuff.

I'm already cringing, because I know what's coming. And don't think I wanted to admit this line of thinking (but BR has eyes in the back of her head). But what I'm considering doesn't feel like giving up. It feels like I'm accepting that this is the way things are right now, and why shouldn't I do things that will make it easier for me to survive today? What happens tomorrow happens tomorrow.

I eagerly await comments.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/24/07 01:04 AM
So....setting aside the morality of dating while married...

your match.com profile would say:

Married man with an out of control Taker and 2 kids seeks rebound relationship as a distraction from recovery and healing....

Wow, I am sure lots of healthy stable normal women would flock to that advert....NOT.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/24/07 01:05 AM
*THWACK THWACK THWACK*
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/24/07 01:11 AM
Have you called the Harley's to ask what they think about breaking plan B to negotiate divorce?

You will start to feel better when you do the work of recovery instead of alternately throwing temper tantrums and sulking because you can't have your way.

And here's another *THWACK* for good measure.

DID YOU TELL YOUR IC ABOUT BANKING YOUR ANGER?

*THWACK*
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/24/07 01:42 AM
That didn't take long. Ow.

Quote
Married man with an out of control Taker and 2 kids seeks rebound relationship as a distraction from recovery and healing....

Can you believe I got no hits with that profile? I'm proposing to give in to divorce so that I can have a life again, or at least move to a place where I'm not so miserable. It feels like something that will make me feel better. I know I'm not the first to think this, so I'm being honest and openly looking for guidance.

Quote
Have you called the Harley's to ask what they think about breaking plan B to negotiate divorce?

Not specifically. I did discuss it with Jennifer before negotiating the custody agreement. Her concern was that the SCQ would wind up not being reasonable and I would get hurt.

Quote
DID YOU TELL YOUR IC ABOUT BANKING YOUR ANGER?

It's actually something I've discussed with her quite a bit. Her thing on anger is that it comes from the difference between the way things are and the way we think they ought to be (sound familiar?). She also thinks that it's easier for us--it's something active we can do to as opposed to feel the underlying sadness. When I talked about it in terms of suppressing anger rather than banking it, she asked me if I let myself cry about this stuff. I said that I do, but it has been a while.

Writing the letter the other day really seems to have helped me. I still get angry, but when I catch myself at it, I stop and pray for the SCQ.

Quote
You will start to feel better when you do the work of recovery instead of alternately throwing temper tantrums and sulking because you can't have your way.

I don't know how to respond to this one. The first part. I own the second part (temper tantrums and sulking). The work of recovery--I don't know how to respond. Flippantly? Couldn't I recover and date at the same time? lots of healthy stable normal women will respond to that But what about hot ones?

Or respond with seriousness and vulnerability? I don't know what to do. Will you keep helping me?
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/24/07 01:59 AM
Seriously,

you need at least 2 years after divorce before starting to date.

you are very full of anger right now, which is covering up a very raw vulnerable heart break.

Even if you rushed the divorce to force your freedom....for you dating is not safe or healthy...and not fair to any woman you would pick up with.

Not to mention your children, who need your undivided attention right now - the last thing they need is BOTH parents to be self-absorbed with oooshey gooshey luvy duvy need meeting that does not protect THEM.

Keep pursuing this topic and I'll have to point out that forced solutions are simply .... more control, more attempts to impose self-will on reality....

There are no loopholes, no cheats, no shorcuts to recovery.

dating is not the answer for bad feelings....isn't that what your wife tried to do?

The work of recovery....is simply moving one day at a time, learning acceptance, learning to Let Go and Let God, and healing.

It means becoming a man that will one day have something to contribute to a full and healthy relationship that is more than getting an itch scratched.

Be the better man.

It's a choice.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/24/07 02:44 AM
Quote
Keep pursuing this topic and I'll have to point out that forced solutions are simply .... more control, more attempts to impose self-will on reality....

This occurred to me on the drive home. Just looking at the possibilities on the dating sites makes me feel better, but I suspect that it's because it gives me some feeling of control (I *could* do this if I wanted to). Same with taking some initiative in the divorce settlement.

I'll even acknowledge that I may be more bothered about losing [the illusion of] control over my life than losing the SCQ.

I'm not sure what this means. Got to eat first.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/24/07 03:29 AM
You are not losing control over your life...

You are simply losing the illusion of control because reality is doing what reality does by just BEING.

You just keep on being pissed off that the sky is blue....hows that working for ya?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/24/07 04:40 AM
Quote
You are not losing control over your life...

There's what the intellectual mind knows, and there's what the subconscious whispers to us.

Quote
You just keep on being pissed off that the sky is blue

What are you saying? That I'm angry about the wrong stuff?
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/24/07 11:22 AM
I took a Communications class at work earlier this week.

The instructor said something that struck me instantly as quite true, and profound...

She said:

People do not complain about things they can not change.

(there's more to this statement, but my notes are in my office, if I make it in today, I'll retrieve it for you!).

The point is, if you IMAGINE that you DO have control over that which you really don't, of course you are going to be angry and resentful.

That's why I use the Sky is blue, water is wet, rocks are hard analogy.

Do you ever hear anyone complain or act resentful about the color of the sky? Do you see people insisting that the sky is really Orange, or do you see people attempting to change the sky to a color of their own choosing?

Of course not.

If however, you knew someone who really believed that he could change the color of the sky to Orange, and spent every waking moment trying to do so...

Do you think that he might be a little frustrated and angry after awhile?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/24/07 09:27 PM
I'm interested in the rest of the quote and your assessment of how it applies.

I know that the sky is blue. I know that my wife has committed adultery. I know that that cannot be changed.

I know that no one can make water dry. I know that the SCQ chooses to be with another man. I know that I cannot make the SCQ see or do or get or feel anything. I know that I cannot make my family whole.

I know that there are lots and lots of things in life that one cannot control. I know that I could drive the speed limit while wearing seat belts inside a car with airbags and still get killed by a semi while driving home.

I also believe that anger/depression/bad feelings come from the discrepancy between things that the intellectual mind knows and what the subconscious believes, but I don't know what's going on in the subconscious. For example, intellectually I know that I am a successful, talented, good, etc person, but I also believe that my subconscious whispers to me "Are you really good enough?" frequently. So, maybe this is what you're getting at--that my subconscious thinks that the sky really should be orange.

I agree that I am looking for a quick fix so that I won't have to feel bad anymore. I recognize that the "solutions" that come to mind probably won't work the way it feels like they might. I'm trying to figure it out.
Posted By: LilSis Re: How long? - 08/24/07 10:41 PM
I'm not getting the anger bank, I think because I don't understand why you feel compelled to examine WHY you feel angry. You have plenty of reasons to feel angry, hurt, betrayed...you name it. You are going through something truly awful.

Why don't you just let yourself feel bad when you feel bad? Happy when you feel happy? Anxious when you feel anxious?

Name the feeling you ARE having when you HAVE it. Acknowledge it. Recognize WHY you feel that way...is it just generalized, were you triggered?

Feel it. Let it move through you. Let it subside, then let it go.

The emotion that you have right NOW is not the emotion that you will have in an hour, or maybe tomorrow morning. Recognize that you have felt just about everything already....and each time, you make it through and another feeling comes eventually. This will happen again, each time you have a certain feeling.

Nothing is going to fix your pain/anger/hurt or make it go away before its time. But if you want it to go away, you have to let yourself feel it, you have to deal with it, own it. You don't have to ACT on the feelings, but you do need to let them be what they are, give them their due.

You can't do away with feelings by banking them, they will just accrue interest.
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: How long? - 08/25/07 12:42 AM
Great LilSis.... that was really insightful.

It's so true we really need to feel our feeling in order to work through them. That is where I think my WH will fail himself bigtime....he refuses to feel anything real.

Still
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/25/07 01:51 PM
Sis, what you wrote is just simply brilliant.

I can't tell you just how happy I am for you - I've got tears in my eyes just reading how much you have grown.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/25/07 02:01 PM
sdguy ~

Quote
I also believe that anger/depression/bad feelings come from the discrepancy between things that the intellectual mind knows and what the subconscious believes, but I don't know what's going on in the subconscious.

Nice try but no cigar...(what does that mean anyway?!)

You are NOT a victim, not even a victim of your subconscious mind.

This is about your resistance, your insistence that things be done your way. It's a refusal to submit to God's way.

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For example, intellectually I know that I am a successful, talented, good, etc person, but I also believe that my subconscious whispers to me "Are you really good enough?" frequently.

Yes, well if you blame this whispering on the subconscious mind that you can not control - then you don't have to take responsibility....you are not a victim. (write this on your forehead in purple ink).

You FEAR that you are not good enough. This is because you give your wife and others power over your truths.

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So, maybe this is what you're getting at--that my subconscious thinks that the sky really should be orange.

No but your fear does. You can talk back to your fear.

You can feel the fear - but continue to do your duty - which IS enough.

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I agree that I am looking for a quick fix so that I won't have to feel bad anymore. I recognize that the "solutions" that come to mind probably won't work the way it feels like they might. I'm trying to figure it out.

There is no quick fix, no shortcut.

This has to come from your healing.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/25/07 09:54 PM
Thanks for the thoughts, Sis. They make a lot of sense.

Thank you, too, BR, but I confess that you have my head spinning around trying to figure out what you're telling me. I think I'll just try to have a good day with my children.
Posted By: LilSis Re: How long? - 08/26/07 12:35 PM
Have a GREAT day with your children, smiley!

Having so very very recently been in your shoes, let me see if I can try to interpret what BR is saying....or at least my understanding of it.

By "blaming" your subconscious, you are giving yourself an out, and BR's not letting you get away with that. That is a good try BTW...I'll grant you...because you are at least owning your subconscious mind. Smart one...

It is this simple. You've been hurt. Deeply, deeply hurt. A hurt that you DID NOT deserve (do you truly accept that?) And you've been hurt in a multitude of ways; for yourself, for your children. This is an awful, awful thing; so unfair and so unnecessary. This is why you feel angry/depressed/bad. It is no "secret" that the subconscious is keeping from you. You've been beaten bloody by SCQ, and she's left you on the road bleeding.

Will you allow yourself this: It is okay to feel angry. It is okay to feel sad. It is okay to feel hurt and betrayed and cheated. Do you know that this is all okay? Do you give yourself permission to feel this?

Sometimes, does the enormity of it just overwhelm you? Do you begin to mull those things over and over like a hamster on a wheel, with nowhere to go with them?

I did. This happened ALL THE TIME (and still could, if I let it). Do you want to know what I do? (I'll tell you anyway.)

When I start to feel those feelings, or maybe take a few steps on that wheel, I say--very consciously--STOP. Hold up.

Because at that MOMENT, I have a choice: to get on the wheel, feel rotten, let it ruin my day, or at least a portion of it. Or, I could do something else.

So I ask myself--very consciously: What am I feeling? What am I REALLY feeling right now? This moment? Is it hurt? Is it the unfairness? Is it the lost trust? Is it the fear of what might be? I dig DOWN. What am *I* feeling? Because under all that anger at WH, under the panic, there is a feeling that *I* am having, that fuels the wheel and keeps it going faster and faster, sucking all my energy. Consuming me.

For me, STOPPING to take the time to examine what I am REALLY feeling underneath, deep down...NAMING it...feels productive somehow (I'm a doer, as you know! Getting on the wheel is so unproductive. It goes nowhere, and just creates frustration).

Okay...so now I've named what I'm feeling. And I think about that: for example, right now I'm feeling afraid. Afraid of what might happen in my future, afraid that my dreams are all lost, afraid of the impact on the kids.

And I work through that feeling. Ask myself questions about it: what's the worst that could happen? How likely is this? What can *I* do that is within MY control to insure that the worst won't happen?

Or I just give myself permission. Yep, I'm pissed. And I have every right to. I've been screwed over. I DON'T get on the wheel of the six million reasons WHY I feel that way...I already know them. WH did this, he had no right to, I DIDN'T DESERVE IT. That is enough. Say over and over: I am angry. I am angry. Feel angry. Just don't get on the wheel of WHY.

To me, asking WHY is like questioning yourself. If you were on the outside, if this had never happened to you, but instead were happening to a sibling, would you for ONE SECOND question what is was about your sibling that s/he would deserve this? No, you wouldn't. Give yourself the SAME credit. Be as good to yourself as you would be to someone else!

By naming the feeling, and acknowledging it, I get some perspective! I stop looking through the emotional lens and look through the pragmatic one.

Do you see how that has changed? It has gone from being about how unfair WH was, how awful this whole situation is, my victimhood, blah blah...to really thinking about what it IS that *I* feel. And giving myself PERMISSION to feel it.

Once you let yourself feel it, then you are not on the wheel. THAT'S the letting it go part. You aren't saying goodbye to the feeling forever. It will come back and visit. But if you name it, and feel it, then for that moment, you are letting it pass.

YOU--YOU!--are the gatekeeper. You have these feelings--different ones from time to time--and you can choose whether to let them through the gate one at a time or keep the gate closed and let them get all backed up, in which case they will become irritated and impatient.

I suggest that you begin to let them through the gate. One at a time. Check their credentials, look them in the eye, and let them pass. You will find that in fact, they all have valid credentials, and in time you will begin to recognize them and won't need to check them quite so carefully each time. In time, you'll be saying, "Hey, Pissy, nice weather we're having, eh?"

Having said ALL of that (which was as much for me as anything), I believe the first step is truly, truly internatlizing that you ARE good enough. That you DID NOT deserve this. That thisis NOT ABOUT you. It is about some failing in SCQ. Like my domino theroy. I didn't arrange all of these dominoes on my own. WH was part of this equation, too. He set up dominoes, he even pushed some. Yeah, I had a few dominoes in there, but it is pretty self-centered of me to think that my few dominoes created this whole huge disaster.

I think that's where you need to start: stop blaming yourself, stop taking responsibility for her choices, stop thinking that you are not good enough. The rest will come.

This may not help a bit...but I think I needed to get it out there for me!

Now BR can tell me what I'm missing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/26/07 06:48 PM
Quote
Thank you, too, BR, but I confess that you have my head spinning around trying to figure out what you're telling me. I think I'll just try to have a good day with my children.

Aaaah yes....still looking for loopholes are we?

I did that too. It was painful, standing here looking back at myself 7 years ago, I cringe at the pain that I chose to put myself through because I was not willing to surrender my will.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/26/07 06:56 PM
And I think Sis got it right.

Fear is not something that you can control...per say, but you do have an indirect control over it in the sense that you can choose what to do about it and choose what to say back to it.

A victim mentality says Oh dear, look at this bad thing happening to me, its not fair! Maybe if I stick my head under this giant rock I won't see it and won't hurt me again!

A healthy response says, I don't like you Fear, and today, I'm going to draw a boundary (take responsibility!) for my own protection. Fear, you are undermining my confidence and my mental health, so today, Fear, I am going to drag you out into the sunlight and see how well you whisper under the bright light of truth!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/27/07 06:10 AM
I brought up the subconscious fear thing as an example. I happen to believe that my subconscious doesn't whisper to me about fear any more than everyone else's subconscious does. I know that this is not my fault. I know that I am better than the POSOM and better than the SCQ.

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I don't understand why you feel compelled to examine WHY you feel angry

I don't know. I'm probably over-analyzing it, like everything else. Maybe I think that if I can figure it out, I can fix it. Solve the problem.

Inside SDG's brain: I feel bad. This is a problem. How can I solve this problem? If I can understand it better, maybe I can fix it. Or maybe someone has the answer and can tell me what I need to do.

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If you were on the outside, if this had never happened to you, but instead were happening to a sibling, would you for ONE SECOND question what is was about your sibling that s/he would deserve this? No, you wouldn't. Give yourself the SAME credit. Be as good to yourself as you would be to someone else!

This is an excellent perspective.

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because I was not willing to surrender my will.

What is it that I haven't surrendered?
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/27/07 10:25 AM
you have not surrendered your own self will.

thats why you are still trying to figure out how to fix it (control).

The 12 steps make it easier to understand:

1. We admit that are powerless over other people and situations - that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/27/07 10:53 AM
Quote
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't understand why you feel compelled to examine WHY you feel angry


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I don't know. I'm probably over-analyzing it, like everything else. Maybe I think that if I can figure it out, I can fix it. Solve the problem.

We ask why because we think that with a little bit more knowledge....we can control the situation.

"Fix it" is another word for control.

Let GO.
Posted By: LilSis Re: How long? - 08/27/07 02:04 PM
I understand this needing to know WHY it happened. (I misunderstood; I thought you were asking why you were angry.)

I had an AHA moment when I finally "got it" that there IS NO WHY.

What SCQ did is inexplicable. There is something wrong in HER. There is NO REASON that can ever make any sense, be logical or understandable.

You cannot make sense of someone who is acting off of pure emotion and no logic, no reason, no sense of right or wrong. Priorities, values...everything is upside down and backwards to her.

It is as if her brain has been re-wired. You could only understand WHY if your brain were similarly re-wired, which (thank God) it is not.

It is HER. It is NOT you.

If it WERE you, you could do something about it, because you have control over you.

You cannot re-wire her brain. She had to re-wire it herself.

The acceptance piece--FOR ME--came from FULLY ACCEPTING that it was NOT ME, and there was NO WHY.

And I hear you saying that you get that....it's just that I know I said it many, many times before, too. Only it wasn't coming from my heart. It was coming from my head.

NOW my heart believes it. I am okay...flawed, imperfect, etc. But I am NOT (again, thank God) operating purely from emotion in such a way that it drives me to hurt others deeply, to put aside my integrity, to abandon my children. I am not in denial and justifying this behavior.

YOU need to get to a point (and you will when the time is right) in which you can truly see and believe in your heart that no, you are not perfect, but you are okay.

If it helps to look at yourself in relation to SCQ, then do it. That's probably not the most healthy way to gauge my okay-ness, and BR will probably call me out on it, but it works for me. I can hold myself up against WH, and it becomes clear that I am not the one who is continuing on a downward spiral. *I* am struggling to become a better, more complete person.

I can hold myself apart from WH (detach?) and recognize where he is...relative to where I am. I am in a much better place.

You will get your own AHA moment. I did. SL did. They came in different ways in in different times. You'll get there, too, when it is right for you. Trust that. Don't beat yourself up for not getting there yet. Don't get discouraged. It will come.

Are you still reading the book???
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: How long? - 08/27/07 02:23 PM
SD,

You are getting some GREAT insights here!

Sis, I am so impressed with you! What a journey you have had and your Growth is amazing! You are giving such great advice and insights here!! You ROCK!

SD, I understand how you feel, as I think most of us here do. It's part of the process of working though all of this. Be patient. Listen. You will get there to that place of peace and acceptance. It takes time.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/27/07 06:43 PM
Thanks to all of you for helping me to work through this

Quote
I don't know. I'm probably over-analyzing it, like everything else. Maybe I think that if I can figure it out, I can fix it. Solve the problem.


We ask why because we think that with a little bit more knowledge....we can control the situation.

Yeah, so I was actually talking about me here. Over-analyzing why I feel so bad. Is there something about how I'm thinking that makes it worse? Are there things I can do that would make it easier? Trying to figure out my true motivations for how I feel/act (call it head/heart or intellect/subconscious or whatever, we don't always understand why we do/feel the way we do). At least right now and most recently, the situation I want to control with a little more knowledge is me. Maybe this, like trying to control the SCQ, is a fool's errand, but it doesn't feel like it.

But for the occasional slip, I gave up trying to control the SCQ and her adultery some time ago. I have mostly given up trying to protect my children from it.

I accept that I did not cause her infidelity. There were mistakes I was making, and I have owned those, apologized for them, and demonstrated that things could be different. I stopped beating myself up over this a long time ago. The adultery is about her, not me.

Am I angry? Yes. What am I angry about? I'm angry at the SCQ's choices, what it's doing to me, to my children, to the POSOM's family. And I'm angry that I am powerless to change that situation. Do I accept that I am powerless to change it? Yes. Do I like it? No.

The anger is on top of sadness. I'm sad that today was DS7's first day back to school and I didn't get to see him. I'm sad whenever DD4 tells me that she wishes Mommy would come home and that mommies aren't supposed to leave their families.

I don't like feeling sad and angry.

It Is the way It Is. The sky is blue. It always has been. Where is the line between Resistance and Acceptance without approval?
Posted By: hopeandpray Re: How long? - 08/27/07 06:51 PM
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The anger is on top of sadness. I'm sad that today was DS7's first day back to school and I didn't get to see him. I'm sad whenever DD4 tells me that she wishes Mommy would come home and that mommies aren't supposed to leave their families.

I don't like feeling sad and angry.

It Is the way It Is. The sky is blue. It always has been. Where is the line between Resistance and Acceptance without approval?



Sorry man....I've been where you are and sometimes find myself there when I least expect it.....You are right, the feeling of not being able to do anything is overwhelming particularly when you look at your children. Prayers for you and your children going up!
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: How long? - 08/27/07 09:16 PM
SD,

You are not completely powerless. Can you change what SCQ is doing or has done? No.

However, you control you. You control the precious time you get with your kids. I focus on making every moment with my kids the best possible, even under the worst of circumstances.

Feel Proud that your DD tells you how she feels! That is fantastic and a testament to the job you are doing as a great Dad!

No, you can not make her Mommy come back, any more than I can get my DD's Daddy back for her. She told me the other night that it is his job to fix things for her, but he told her he will no/can not fos 'this'. I wanted to cry right then, but I didn't. Instead, when she was finished telling me, I assured her the best I could, told her we can trust in God to help us be more than OK. Then we played her favorite game and snuggled together on the couch.

THAT is what she remembered the next day. It was OK to share and then Mommy was there with her having fun and loving her.

Do those things with your kids. Give them the best memories you can. You control that no matter what!

Chin up!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/27/07 09:46 PM
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I focus on making every moment with my kids the best possible

Thanks, Bugs (and HAP). You're right, and that's what I try to do--make the time about them when I have them. I think I do pretty well at this--I'm certainly proud of what I have done so far.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 08/27/07 09:57 PM
Guy smiley,

I'm sorry that you did not get to see your son off to his first day of school. There are more days ahead, probably even more exciting than this one.

You are right, the feeling of not being able to do anything is overwhelming particularly when you look at your children.

This feeling never goes away; it just morphs from one situation to the next. Today, it's the SCQ choice to leave the marriage; tomorrow, who knows, it will be SOMETHING, it's ALWAYS something. Your children will always need you to be there, to listen, to guide, to discipline, to protect as best YOU can.

Hope you are eating more these days. How are the meds coming along? Is your body leveling off? What are you doing for Guy Smiley these days (beyond thinking of dating, ya dang fool...)

Don't know if I'll be posting as much during the day. I've cut my hours down a bit at work, so that I can be home when DS arrives home from school. It was truly WEIRD being home at 4PM today. I can't remember the last time I was home that early. I felt like i was playing HOOKY!
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/27/07 10:08 PM
You can't control how you feel, so overanalyzing is exactly what is making you nuts.

You can control what you do about it.

So for example, my al-anon sponsor used to say to me, give yourself permission to let your mind spin around and generally have a meltdown. Then tell yourself that self-indulgence time is over...and get on with your day.

you are trying to force acceptance and force good feelings and force all the bad stuff to be gone.

You are trying to be DONE instead of LETTING GO.

Letting go is where you just BE.

If you are angry, BE ANGRY.

Stop trying to change it, ask it why, or analyze it to death.

Just get pissed off. Feel the emotion. Then put it aside and get on with your day.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/28/07 12:23 AM
Quote
Letting go is where you just BE.

If you are angry, BE ANGRY.

Stop trying to change it, ask it why, or analyze it to death.

Just get pissed off. Feel the emotion. Then put it aside and get on with your day.

Okay, now THIS I can work with.

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You are trying to be DONE instead of LETTING GO.

Everyone around me wants me to be done. Rather, they want the bad stuff for me to be gone. Then, I mess up in plan B and get triggered and feel angry and hopeless, and then I WANT to be done. Remind me why I shouldn't be done yet. Some of the people around me are listening.

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Hope you are eating more these days. How are the meds coming along? Is your body leveling off? What are you doing for Guy Smiley these days (beyond thinking of dating, ya dang fool...)

The eating comes and goes. A bit better over the past few days, but overall I am back up about ten pounds and at a pretty good weight for me. Not sure whether any of the weight is med-related. I should have reached full blood levels of the new meds but maybe not full effect yet--meeting with the shrink tomorrow.

I need to do more fun things for me, but it's still hard to remember what those are. Yoga and beach walks are good, and being educated by BR, of course, but I could definitely use more fun. What day is that in the book?
Posted By: LilSis Re: How long? - 08/28/07 01:24 AM
June 8 and July 29.

Do something FUN that brings you closer together with your friends...not your kids, not you alone...but adults. Other living, breathing adults. Put away your cares for a while and just hang out.

So...

Have fun! Go out for drinks with friends. Relax. Laugh. Enjoy yourself, and celebrate who you are! You are not just some one-dimensional "guy who was cheated on by his wife." There is so much more to YOU than that. This situation has just eclipsed everything else--in YOUR mind--right now. Everyone else in your life sees all the other wonderful facets of who you are. Being with other people helps to remind you of those other pieces of you.

Get pissed/sad, whatever you need to feel. Acknowledge those feelings and that they are understandable responses to what you are going through...just don't let them consume you.

Stop worrying about "getting it." It will come when you are ready; when your heart and head are in sych, when it's right for you...and not a moment before. I know that sucks.

Have your son tell you ALL ABOUT his first day! Every last detail.

And keep reading!

Wish I could help...I really, really do.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/28/07 01:52 AM
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You are not just some one-dimensional "guy who was cheated on by his wife." There is so much more to YOU than that. This situation has just eclipsed everything else--in YOUR mind--right now. Everyone else in your life sees all the other wonderful facets of who you are. Being with other people helps to remind you of those other pieces of you.

Wow, Sis. Great insights. Hope you are applying this stuff yourself, as well.
Posted By: LilSis Re: How long? - 08/28/07 11:19 AM
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Hope you are applying this stuff yourself, as well.
Well, let's not go THAT far...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Actually, talking to you about it helps ME put it into perspective a bit; it helps me to think through and articulate what WORKS for me, as well as becoming aware of what keeps me stuck. So I hope you don't mind me going on and on and on...
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 08/28/07 01:22 PM
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So...

Have fun! Go out for drinks with friends. Relax. Laugh. Enjoy yourself, and celebrate who you are! You are not just some one-dimensional "guy who was cheated on by his wife." There is so much more to YOU than that. This situation has just eclipsed everything else--in YOUR mind--right now. Everyone else in your life sees all the other wonderful facets of who you are. Being with other people helps to remind you of those other pieces of you.



Sis, this goes for ANYBODY, along the path of self healing and self recovery. Taking care of yourself, your unique self, learning about you, loving you, seems to be of the utmost importance. It's really good that you recognize this (whether you practice what you preach, you now have the knowledge).
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/28/07 01:29 PM
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Everyone around me wants me to be done. Rather, they want the bad stuff for me to be gone. Then, I mess up in plan B and get triggered and feel angry and hopeless, and then I WANT to be done. Remind me why I shouldn't be done yet. Some of the people around me are listening.

My experience was that people around me wanted me to be done because my pain made them uncomfortable.

It was communicated as concern for me...but the motivation was self-interest.

It's not that people DON'T care...they are just incredibly uncomfortable in the face of scary pain (probably bringing up their own fears). Or they are just sick of hearing it and have lost patience. Or maybe they genuinely want to see you out of pain, and think that urging you to be done will get you there faster.

But regardless...it doesn't matter what other people have on their agenda for you. This is your life, your pain, your choices - not theirs.

Why shouldn't you be done? Because you haven't let go. If you force being done like you are now, you won't heal, you won't go on to be happy, joyous and free.

Being done is on the other side of Letting Go and Peacefulness.

You keep trying to have your dessert before you have tackled the main entre!
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 08/28/07 02:15 PM
As an aside, I love dessert!

Now, as for everything else BR is saying, this rings true for me. No one I know wants to see me in anymore pain, and it does make them extremely uncomfortable to hear about my current marital woes.

One of my friends came by to have lunch recently, and we were discussing updates to my situation. She SAID, "Geez, I don't know if I want to hear all of this, you're scaring me."

I was scaring her because she knows my sitch since the beginning. She knows about our relationship post baby (she's currently 6 mos prego), she knows about he infidelities, she knows about the false recoveries, and our current recovery sitch. This stuff makes married people nervous. Maybe it's because they are not as attentive in their marriage as they SHOULD be; or that this could happen to ANY couple.

My father expressed how painful it was to see me going through this amount of pain, for him. My sister expressed the same. My brother was nowhere to be seen during my separations.

My best friend told me that she hated to see me struggling, in pain, and she hated to see me WASTING MY TIME with PWC. That he was gone, changed, probably doing what he really wanted.

When I think back on this, I really had MB as my support; that was IT. Thank God for that!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/28/07 07:37 PM
Most people, when I explain it to them, agree that yes, I am doing the right thing but that they hate to see me in so much pain.

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Or maybe they genuinely want to see you out of pain, and think that urging you to be done will get you there faster.

This one applies. Especially given that the SCQ doesn't seem to have responded to the plans, continues to march on toward divorce, and doesn't seem to have even taken a serious look at me in over two years. ("Do you really think she's going to come back? Do you really want her to?")

Anyway, I feel much better today, except that I missed getting a spot in my noon yoga class because it was full. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Instead, I'll eat an actual lunch!

Thanks again for the excellent advice.
Posted By: Knitgirl Re: How long? - 08/28/07 11:49 PM
Hi SD,

I try to follow your thread, although I must admit that most of the time you all are talking above my head!. I'm a black-and-white kind of girl, so that gray area stuff whizzes by me.

You sure have been at it for a long while. Did you give yourself a time limit? In SAA, Dr. Harley says to decide on a time limit for Plan B, so just wondered what yours was. I believe he said 18 months.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 08/29/07 01:27 AM
so stop trying to please others...

YOU need to walk this path to the end, no matter how long it takes you. It's YOUR path.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/29/07 05:04 AM
I don't think I am trying to please anyone else, but it helps when someone knowledgable reminds us that the SCQ's actions are still proceeding according to the wayward script and that there are reasons not to give up above and beyond my own healing. At this point, however, I don't think I care whether or not the SCQ comes back. I'll be happy either way.

Thanks for dropping by, KG. It's been 8 months of Plan B now. When I started, Jennifer cautioned me to pace myself (it's a marathon, not a sprint)--"this could take a year." When I started, it was three months, then check. Then another three months, and check. I do okay when I recognize triggers and don't fall out of Plan B, so I haven't quit yet.

I'm not sure what it even means to quit. I used to think it was when I decided to leave her to her fate and said 'whatever happens happens' and decided not to expend any more effort for her and that this would happen when we signed the divorce papers. I think, however, that I am doing this now.

At some point, divorce papers will probably come, and I will sign them. After that, who knows? Divorce need not be an endpoint. I'm not going to wait around forever, though.
Posted By: LilSis Re: How long? - 08/29/07 12:04 PM
Quote
I'm not sure what it even means to quit. I used to think it was when I decided to leave her to her fate and said 'whatever happens happens' and decided not to expend any more effort for her and that this would happen when we signed the divorce papers. I think, however, that I am doing this now.
Yeah, because (as you know) you are talking about two entirely different things.

I think leaving her to her fate and saying whatever happens happens and deciding not to expend any more effort on her IS letting go. That's essentially the definition of "letting go." This is emotional. It has to do with what is going on in your heart and mind, and you get there slowly...so slowly and so painfully.

The divorce papers are the business end of it. You sign the papers and its done. It's awful and horrible, but it has nothing to do with what's going on inside you. It has to do with property and finances.

It's easy--and maybe a bit reassuring?--to think that once the papers are signed, everything magically feels better. If only....

Now that I think of it, that's probably what WSs think...that as soon as the papers are signed, that FINALLY everything will be rosy. Ta-dah!

Quote
At some point, divorce papers will probably come, and I will sign them. After that, who knows? Divorce need not be an endpoint. I'm not going to wait around forever, though.
Nope, you won't. When you "let go," you probably won't feel as if you are "waiting around" at all. You'll just be living in the NOW, with the life that is around you, the people who are around you, and letting the future take care of itself. Appreciating what's real, what you have now...not regretting and pining for what you don't have now.

Instead of trying to see the whole forest, you appreciate the trees?

When you let go, it's there, she's there, but more off in the distance...where she belongs. Not a part of your immediate environment. Not primary, but secondary. Secondary to YOU and what is around you and who is around you.

Oh...what do I know? It all sounds good on paper, but putting it into action is really hard.

I feel like I keep jacking your thread.

(BTW, thinking about D papers that will "probably come" is just setting yourself up for additional anxiety. I know it's hard to not anticipate, but you really have no idea what will happen, so why go looking for trouble? You have enough to deal with without creating reasons to be anxious all on your own. BR would probably say it was a control thing, too, but I'm not sure how exactly.)
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/29/07 05:09 PM
Sis, you are *always* welcome to think out loud on my thread (even if it feels like TJ'ing).

Quote
It all sounds good on paper, but putting it into action is really hard.

Amen. But it gets easier, I think.

Quote
thinking about D papers that will "probably come" is just setting yourself up for additional anxiety.

Yeah, I expected that someone would club me over bringing that up (you were very gentle). I really mentioned it only in response to Knitgirl's question about my deadline. I used to think it was when the divorce papers were signed. Last night I started to say something about my 40th birthday, which is in December (like how a few months ago I said I wanted to spend it with the SCQ, but now I feel like I'm not going to spend it wanting to be with the SCQ), but it felt forced. Whatever happens happens.

Quote
Now that I think of it, that's probably what WSs think...that as soon as the papers are signed, that FINALLY everything will be rosy. Ta-dah!

This is a really interesting thought. I expect you're right. Oh, well.

April 3. Acceptance and surrender--two concepts that hurt the most before we do them.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: How long? - 08/29/07 07:17 PM
Quote
April 3. Acceptance and surrender--two concepts that hurt the most before we do them.


I second this. I'm pretty good on the acceptance portion, still struggle with the surrender part. But maybe it is just the word "surrender". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I think, with acceptance, a certain amount of surrendering HAS to happen. I've surrendered my steely grip on what I THOUGHT I could control in WH's affair when I accepted that he had free will of his own. No matter what I do or don't do, WH makes his own choices.

You and Sis seem to be working off of each other so well - taking the advice of the experienced, discussing it for further clarification, and moving on.

Beautiful, just beautiful. You're getting there...with each passing moment.

FYI - I was asked out a few minutes ago. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Flattering as all get out, but my reply was "thank you, Jim, that is so flattering, but I am still married"

He was not aware of the situation and I no longer wear my wedding ring (though the scar is still there), so it was an honest mistake to make. Awkward, though.

Best to you,
Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 08/31/07 04:15 PM
Feeling good the past couple of days. Very engaged at work and getting things accomplished. Eating.

Congrats on getting asked out, Fox. Must be nice. (I would call you Foxy Lady, too, but I'm married.)
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: How long? - 08/31/07 04:42 PM
Glad to hear you are doing well, Guy Smiley. That eating thing...you gotta do it. I'm still working on this. I eat kind of hit and miss. If DDs aren't there for dinner, I don't eat.

I notice it the next day. In general, I don't eat breakfast and depending on business of the day, no lunch either. By afternoon, I'm starting to get light headed, tired, and less focused. Dinner comes again and I'm not hungry because I feel sick.

It's not just food....it's nourishment for mind AND body.

Quote
Congrats on getting asked out, Fox. Must be nice. (I would call you Foxy Lady, too, but I'm married.)


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Excellent enforcement of your personal boundary.

Just put in your back pocket for future reference that you can lift a woman's spirits in the simplest of ways. When you have the opportunity, wake up in the morning, look at your wife and say "good morning, Beautiful". Like it's her NAME, not just an adjective.

Goes the other way, too.

When it's appropriate for me, I'll do the same, or when he answers the phone when I call, say "Good afternoon, Handsome (or Hot Stuff, or whatever), how is your day?"

I've started to do this with DDs. Making sure that I am giving them positive comments each day on various things. Pointing out all the good thins about them...specifically.

Fox
Posted By: LilSis Re: How long? - 08/31/07 09:53 PM
Way to go, Fox. No matter that it was awkward...an ego boost is an ego boost. Take 'em where you can get 'em. Being a BS gives the old ego a pretty big smack-down.

From my thread, sd said:
Quote
At this point in my recovery, if I feel like yelling at the coffee table, I do. If I have some really nasty thoughts about the SCQ (I've been having the same thoughts about how she doesn't deserve children as great as ours), I write it in a letter. Or vent it to someone.
I say get out the sledge hammer and beat the crap out of the stupid coffee table! Draw down the balance in that anger bank!

Seriously, I am so glad that you seem to be much more comfortable with FEELING, experiencing and expressing your feelings...you are developing strategies that allow you to FEEL your feelings, process them, and then put them away, toss them...whatever is right.

Keep writing, keep venting, keep yelling, keep feeling. You've accumulated a big balance in that anger bank, so give yourself time to empty it out. You're doing it.

And look, even though those feelings are coming out, you are still here, you are still in control of YOU, you are still managing to care for the kids, go to yoga, go to work, and even (gasp) eat! You're doing this, too.

You are doing great! I think you are on your way....

YAY!
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: How long? - 09/01/07 08:23 AM
SD,

Do you ever go back after a particularly difficult day or issue and re-read your posts?

I find this very helpful to me becuase it helps me see where I started on an issue/event and then where I ended up after posting, reading responses, and working through it.

YOU, my friend, have been doing an amazing job, which is why I suggest that you do the same. Re-read what you have posted lately. SEE and read for yourself how FAR you have come recently. Give yourself some Kuddos as they are very well deserved.

I like to hear you are very engaged at work. For me, this has always been a saving grace, and am glad that it is starting to be that way for me again recently. Grab on to what keeps you going in life!

Hope you have a great holiday!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 09/03/07 11:56 PM
Thanks for the thoughts, Bugs, Sis, and Fox. I kept meaning to come on and post about how well I've been doing, but I haven't found the time. So, the good feelings have continued, due in part to new meds kicking in as well as getting away from recent triggers. It's been easier to not think about the SCQ or how her choices are harming the kids.

A week ago, my mom had dinner over at the SCQ's townhouse with the kids. I wasn't crazy about this idea--I can appreciate why she wanted to do it (see where and how the kids live, make things seem more normal for the kids), but my gut reaction was one of anger toward the SCQ and being opposed to anything that makes things seem more normal and okay. My concession was that Mom not tell me what happened, because the details of her lunch with the SCQ was a major trigger, and I don't want to know what happens over there.

A couple of weeks ago, I proposed that the holiday weekend be used to spend individual time with the kids (i.e., I have one, she has the other one). She had been wanting one of us to have the whole weekend. As an alternative to the individual time plan, I said that I would take them for the whole weekend if she wanted, leaving it unsaid that she couldn't have the whole weekend. She accepted the proposal last Thursday.

Going to a barbecue with neighbors. More weekend details later.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 09/04/07 05:31 AM
So. Weekend. My parents had been here for a while and were leaving on Saturday. The schedule had the kids with me for Wed and Thurs, back to the SCQ on Fri and Sat, and then back with me for Sun. The SCQ asked me if I wanted the kids Friday night so that they could spend the last night with the grandparents, and I said yes.

Later on Thursday, she proposed that she have DS7 on Saturday (I have DD4 on Saturday, when there was a birthday party with neighbors that I said I'd take her to--because the neighbors all know the story now, so SCQ is avoiding them), switching at 4 pm on Sunday for the rest of the weekend. This is fine. I have the kids extra on Friday and Saturday.

DD4 and I had a good time. I didn't overschedule the time--I did whatever she wanted to do. Lots of games. We played some soccer, Did sidewalk chalk. Played with the kitten. Watched plenty of Scooby Doo (I've been TIVOing the originals, which she really likes. Better than Star Wars, I think. Maybe I'll try ABBA on her next). A trip to the beach. Good stuff. She didn't want to go back to the SCQ's and told me this a few times.

Sunday at 4 we did the switch. I managed to not see the SCQ, which was good. I made the time with DS7 about him--watching baseball, trip to the Family Fun Center (go-carts, arcade games, and mini golf), trip to the beach today. Today was a good day, ending with the neighborhood party.

In the course of this, DS7 tells me that POSOM was there while he was with SCQ. I probe a bit and find out that at least SOME of the time he was with the SCQ, POSOM wasn't there, and I tell him that I'm glad he got to spend some time with his mother. Later he tells me (in one of those offhand he wants me to know kind of ways) that they had an overnight on Friday and spent the night at POSOM's brother's house. He didn't know why and said there was nothing he could do about it.

So, this is, of course, outrageous, but I don't think there's anything I can do about it. I told DS7 as much. I don't think there's any point in confronting the SCQ on it--I imagine she would be defensive and perceive it as a challenge to her mothering abilities, which it would be.

I think she is completely the follower in this affair, not that it really matters. I just can't think of why else she would drag DS7 on an overnight like that. God only knows where she's taken DD4 these last two nights.

So, yes, this is also triggering, but I've managed to avoid depression over it.

I had too much wine at the barbecue. I hope this was coherent. And that everyone had a good holiday weekend.
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: How long? - 09/04/07 02:28 PM
Oh Smiley, i'm sorry that you ahd to learn this...I heard a little something myself last night!

My question to you is: Here, WS are not allowed to have over night with the opposite sex...and I will make sure that it is in my custody agreement...is there something like that where you are???

of course, this is confusing to the kids and not in their best interest...

POWS KNOWS about the overnight thing...I'm checking into where there is anything that states that they can not be around them during the day...

You did great handling this...Good job! i hope you know HOW AMAZING YOU ARE!!!

Keep smiling! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And take care!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 09/04/07 04:12 PM
Hi, Rin

Nope. Nothing to be done. The court "won't interfere in her personal life" so long as there is no serious risk of physical harm to the children, and there isn't.

What amazes me is that she drags the kids into this (I know it's typical, but still). She hadn't seen DS7 for three days and was going to have him for one night before not seeing him for another two days, and so what does she do to make it special 1 on 1 time? Takes him to POSOM's brother's house.

This is a big test for me, because I really feel the urge to reach out and tell her "It was supposed to be one on one time--why did you bring POSOM into it? That's not what DS7 wanted. And how is it appropriate to spend that one on one time at POSOM's brother's house? Again, that's not what DS7 wanted. He doesn't even understand why you went there and felt it important enough to tell me about it." and "If this is what putting the children first looks like, I would hate to see what you being openly selfish looks like."

I won't, of course. Especially not the second comment, but I think the first might get her attention. It would certainly be LBing, but I don't think that there's anyone else who will do it. I still won't do it.

But I'm triggered. Advice on how to let this one go is welcome.

I'm thinking I should ask the kids whether they want me to help them write the SCQ a letter about this kind of thing.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 09/04/07 04:26 PM
I think that this needs to come from your children, not from you.

If your DS can just write something or even draw a picture of how he feels when with POSOM, or about the break up of his family. BUT, SCQ will probably think that you goaded them into writing anything or drawing anything.

Does your son express his feelings to his mother? I'm almost sure that the intimidation factor of talking to his mom about his sadness keeps him from it. Your son confides in you, and may not want to confide in his mom. This is a tough one.

I do feel that his mother should know how he is struggling. I told PWC about DS issues. It was not dark, but our son was so very important, and his tender heart was breaking. I just couldn't keep silent.

I never talked about PWC when referencing our son, just how our son was struggling with this issue or that, no sugar coating, and wanted answers from him on how we should handle it. I never said anything like, "Due to your choicees to blah blah blahbetty blah, our son is feeling blah blah blahbetty blah." (at least not toward the end of my Plan B--much calmer and collected) I said, " DS is having problems with such and such, and I believe he needs some help. I suggest so and so, what do you think?"

After he agreed that such and such WAS a problem for DS, he generally told me to do whatever. PWC was then VERY aware of our son's issues, and began talking to him about them.

This didn't SOLVE the problem, but it got a dialogue started between DS and his dad.

I don't really know what advice to give, just what I have done. Anything needs to go through the intermediary; this will keep you dark. You will be expressing a need for your son, not for you.
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: How long? - 09/04/07 04:30 PM
Have you suggested that DS7 tell his mom what he thinks? Call her...

I think the letter is a good idea...let it be up to the kids whether they want to send it to her, burn it, tear it up, etc., keep it...

I'm starting this with my OS, but I'm getting someone else to write what he has to say...felt he would be more comfortable to open up...

I have no suggestion on how to let this go...I think that you should document how this is affecting the kids...should you need it in the future...emotional trauma...

All in all, I think that you are doing a wonderful job, being creative...I am honored to know you!

Perhaps, come to think about it, you should write your own letter, and detroy it...get everything out and on paper...then chose what you would like to do with it!

Just thinking out loud...i write sometimes too!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: LilSis Re: How long? - 09/04/07 04:45 PM
How to let this "go" (as much as is truly possible) is to accept that she will do whatever nasty, thoughtless, selfish, rotten things she wants to do....and you have no control over it. You've explored whether or not you have the legal ability to do anything, and you don't. So you are stuck with what IS, not with what SHOULD be.

At the same time, take solace in the fact that you are being a great, wonderful dad.

Being a good mom is NOT a gift that you can give. It is only a gift that SCQ can give to them. ONLY her.

So...you can't do anything about it, so the choice is to rehash it, mull it over, get more and more angry....OR to just focus on being the very best DAD you can be.

Let her be a crappy mom. Nothing you could EVER do could undo her crappiness as a mom. She is the ONLY one who can decide to put her children's interests above her own. YOU continue to be a great dad, thoughtful, caring, empathic, fun. Being DAD is a wonderful gift, and YOU can give it to them.

Don't know if it helps, but it helped me.

YOU are the only one who can give them the gift of a good dad. And you are doing one heck of a job on that.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 09/04/07 04:57 PM
Quote
I think that this needs to come from your children, not from you.

If your DS can just write something or even draw a picture of how he feels when with POSOM, or about the break up of his family. BUT, SCQ will probably think that you goaded them into writing anything or drawing anything.

Does your son express his feelings to his mother? I'm almost sure that the intimidation factor of talking to his mom about his sadness keeps him from it. Your son confides in you, and may not want to confide in his mom. This is a tough one.

The whole thing is compounded by the fact that he doesn't really want to talk about it at all. He's inheirited the Stuffit gene from his mother and would rather act like everything is fine. It's not like he really expresses his feeling to me, either. The fact that he mentioned it and the manner in which he brought it up was a sign to me that it was of significance to him. I didn't react TOO much, but when I started asking questions (Do you know why you went there?) he didn't know the answers to, he clammed up fairly quickly.

If I had reacted like a therapist instead of like a human being, I might have gotten more info from him. I'll try to do a better job of listening next time.

We'll have a family meeting this week, and I'll see if anything comes up.
Posted By: chrisner Re: How long? - 09/04/07 05:22 PM
SD,

I know you know that I know that you know this but....

She is not the same person you married and will probably never be again. Have no expectations about her behavior and moral compass with the children anymore. It's easier for you. It only breeds frustration.

Wayzilla only sees DD19 briefly once every 4-5 weeks and it has been like that since around April. They only talk for a couple minutes on the phone every 2-3 days.

DD declined to go to Wayzilla's new house (known disparagingly by DD as “the Trailer”) for Labor day last week and Wayzilla has not called her since.

As unbelievable as it still is to me, they will never have the same relationship again. Wayzilla's choice.

Your WW has made her choices too.

Be the best Dad you can be (and you have been fantastic!) and make the best of the crappy hand you have been left to play. That is all you can do.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 09/05/07 05:50 PM
Thanks for stopping by, Chris. You're right--she's not the same person I married. She's an alien. I had a pretty good idea ahead of time that the weekend would not go (ha! get this) the way I thought it should.

More stuff to let go of. This is the way things are today. I accept that and will make the most of this beautiful day I have been given.

As I have been reminded, today is not tomorrow. This holds for Wayzilla, too, at least for DD19's relationship with her.
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: How long? - 09/05/07 08:44 PM
hi, stopping by myself to say hello, and thank you for your post...

I'm trying hard to pull myself up...I remember reading the same of you a time or two...

Take care! Thinking of you!
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 09/05/07 09:10 PM
chrisner, since you don't post much, I'll post here. Hopefully, as time goes by, your ex and her daughter will find a way. It will take DD19 accepting her mother as fallable, and it will take WZ waking up to that reality, too. Mothers and daughters and their relationships, WHEW, it could make your head spin, even without any wedges between them.

Guy Smiley, I can safely say the Chrisner is correct that your wife CHANGED, so are you. Everything has changed, and will NEVER be able to be put EXACTLY back in place. That PLACE doesn't even exist anymore. I say, take the pieces of your shattered existence, and put it back together as a beautiful mosaic, binding it together with your new understandings. Personal recovery is tough. One of the MAJOR first steps is detaching.

I remember people arguing on the boards, that detaching was not what you should do with your spouse, but EVERYTHING that I have read about codenpendency states just that, to detach, with love, not in bitterness, or to leave the R, but to take care of yourself.

Happiness lies in YOUR hands. I'm not going to say that it's an easy task; I struggle a lot with my focus.

AS for you kids, as everyone else is saying, be the best you, the best dad, that you can be. You don't have to be super dad, just be there for them.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 09/05/07 11:09 PM
It's the $64,000 question. This is who she is today, but who will she be tomorrow? Or next month? Or next year? I think about what I have heard that Steve Harley has said: if the behavior is vastly out of character from the way that the wayward spouse was prior to being wayward, then it's the Fog of adultery controlling their behavior. And that they can be different once they wake up.

Not the same, obviously. The way things were is gone forever, but something new and better can be built on top of the foundation of the old relationship. It all depends upon the question of when and whether the WS will wake up. An unanswerable question.

So I'm trying to let that go, too, and live for today. It's not easy. Like you said, SL, the focus slips. Whenever there's a gap in concentration (driving home, walking between buildings, final relaxation after yoga), marriage crap sneaks into my head (the if-only's and the why's and sometimes still the shock that this is actually happening). But I try to keep busy with other things and avoid triggers where possible and be the best father I can be.

I think I'm getting there.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 09/05/07 11:24 PM
Whenever there's a gap in concentration (driving home, walking between buildings, final relaxation after yoga), marriage crap sneaks into my head (the if-only's and the why's and sometimes still the shock that this is actually happening)

GUILTY!!!!! Me too. Personally, driving home is when I think TOO much about my marriage. I'm not feeling great today, but good. I am going to the doc in the morning to talk about this 'nerve' problem that I believe I'm having. Neck is always in a twist, and my fingers on my left hand are losing sensation. I am a bit worried.

Tomorrow evening, I am going over to an girlfriend's house to hang out and see her son (he's 5 months old).

Took DS to dinner tonight, just to treat ourselves (PWC has TaeKwanDo).

I dunno, I'm detaching as best I can right now, with the tools I have. I look at our relationship and work for better every day. I do what I can. Living today, not tomorrow, and trying to leave the past behind, only to be learned from, not to dwell upon.

Today is good.
Posted By: LilSis Re: How long? - 09/06/07 12:07 AM
I think you are getting there, too.

I had those "shock that this is actually happening" moments until very recently. They went away when I finally let go of it all, which will happen for you when the time is right for you.

When the "if-onlys" and the "whys" sneak into my head (which they still do), I make a conscious choice to shut them down, and remind myself that this IS what IS, and I look around me to find something to be thankful for in that very moment. I'll go hug the dog or something (not surprisingly, these sneaky thoughts don't sneak up on me when the kids are around....just when I'm alone or, as you say, the focus slips).

These sneaky thoughts are less sneaky, now that I've been letting go.

....I say this because I want you to know that I agree that you are getting there, too.

Wondering who she will be tomorrow or next week is (as you know) pointless. She will be who she will be. You may feel sad that she is not who she "should" be or could be, or even sad that she's not who she was. But mulling over the potential outcomes is just wasted energy.

Instead, you might want to consider who YOU are going to be tomorrow or next week. You will be a good dad. You will be a yoga master, twisting yourself into ridiculous positions. What else? What do you want to do with your life? What are your dreams for YOU? For your little family of you and the kids?

I've been thinking about this, too:

Quote
I think about what I have heard that Steve Harley has said: if the behavior is vastly out of character from the way that the wayward spouse was prior to being wayward, then it's the Fog of adultery controlling their behavior. And that they can be different once they wake up.

Which led me to a such huge TJ that I decided to just paste over on my thread....
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: How long? - 09/06/07 02:23 PM
Interesting very interesting.

GuySmiley... you are getting there. It will always be a little bumpy but that is life in general. Even before all this affair cr#p entered my life it wasn't always smooth traveling. I can say that when you do get there you will feel so much better.

I also am guilty of mind wandering about what I would like to say to WH and MOW. About what could of been. If only he would of tried. Then I slap myself (not literally) and realize it still wouldn't be easy.

It's interesting about what Steve says about the WS, I am at a point where I can't even remember what WH was truley like before all this. Maybe it was his true self and I was blind to it? I don't know.... right now my life is good. The only times dips happen is anytime I have to deal with him. He is still trying to control my life even though he doesn't want me in it. Crazy huh.

(((Sdguy))

Still
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: How long? - 09/06/07 10:38 PM
Hey Guy!

Just wanted to say HI and let you know that I, too, am guilty of letting in those thoughts during the concentration gaps, but I'd wager to say most of us are. Any time you have such a huge issue in life, it is to be expected.

I feel like, you,,,,, I'm "getting" there. Most days seem better than the previous. I find less gaps of concentration to begin with now with keeping focus on MY life and my kids. It's a process. It takes time.

We will continue to improve!

Keep Smilin'! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 09/07/07 05:25 PM
Quote
Anyway....as much as I don't want it for you, sd, it might be good if SCQ did something even more truly awful so that you could feel okay with yourself about washing your hands of her, knowing you did what you could, and giving her to God. Let her be God's problem, not yours.

[As far as I know] I'm fully prepared to live the rest of my life without the SCQ. I think that I have detached from her as a spouse--I don't need her as a life partner. I'm not sure that I even want her back as a life partner. I believe that I can do better. These are questions for tomorrow rather than today, however, so I try not to worry about them too much.

What I'm having trouble detaching is that she's the mother of my children, and that they deserve better. Like Sis says, it's not a gift I can give my children, so I try to be the best dad I can be (recognizing that I don't have to be SuperDad--thanks, SL). I get some anger from this--that they will be stuck with the SCQ and her useless family for the rest of their lives. But wait, that's also a concern for tomorrow, not today.

I'm still feeling pretty good. Accomplishing things at work at something more like my old pace, which is a relief after the last few months. I saw Bugs commenting on the same thing on her thread.

I'm not sure that there's anything to be done about the concentration gaps. I still find myself having the mental conversations with her, but it's getting easier to push them away and refocus on something else. I think writing the stuff down helps, but I haven't been doing it as much as I ought to.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 09/11/07 12:22 AM
October 17
Posted By: LilSis Re: How long? - 09/11/07 04:37 PM
My book's at home. What's October 17?

I agree with the work thing. I am throwing myself into it, and enjoying it...especially now that the boys are back in school and I don't feel as if time at work is time away from them.

You sound GREAT!!!!!
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: How long? - 09/11/07 04:43 PM
What book's that? and WHAT IS october 17?

Come on Smiley! Mr. Mysterious!!! LMAO

Glad to hear you are doing well, I'll have to take lessons from you! LMAO

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: How long? - 09/11/07 05:00 PM
RIn,

October 17th.....Feelings and Surrender.

Sdguy,
It's coming for you, I feel it in my bones. What a journey we all ahve been on.

((Hugs)))

Still
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 09/11/07 05:58 PM
Rin,
The book in "The Language of Letting Go" by Melody Beattie
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: How long? - 09/11/07 06:09 PM
WOW, A book I DON'T HAVE! LMAO

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WAit, I'm going to have to check when I get home! LMAO

thanks!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 09/11/07 06:30 PM
Oct 17: Surrendering is a highly personal and spiritual experience.

Surrender is not something we can do in our heads. It is not something we can force or control by willpower. It is something we experience.

Acceptance, or surrender, is not a tidy package. Often, it is a package full of hard feelings--anger, rage, and sadness, followed by release and relief. As we surrender, we experience our frustration and anger at God, at other people, at ourselves, and at life. Then we come to the core of the pain and sadness, the heavy emotional burden inside that must come out before we can feel good. Often, these emotions are connected to healing and release at a deep level.

Surrender sets the wheels in motion. Our fear and anxiety about the future are released when we surrender.
We are protected. We are guided. Good things have been planned. The next step is now being taken. Surrender is the process that allows us to move forward. It is how our Higher Power moves us forward.

Trust in the rightness of timing, and the freedom at the other end, as you struggle humanly through this spiritual experience.

From The Language of Letting Go, Melody Beattie, HarperCollinsPress
Posted By: Jayban Re: How long? - 09/11/07 08:26 PM
SDGuy,

As soon as I saw your thread, I thought of you and your situation. I know you have been in this fight a long time, and I admire your resolve.

My separation began Dec 29th, 2006. I have been married 14 yrs. WW's affair continues to this day, about as long as yours.

Yet, and this is why I dropped by, she came back last week.
I had her back, but I failed to do what I really needed to do.

Here are the things she told me:
Every single day she looked at my private MySpace page just to see my picture.

Every night she thought of me.

She cried many nights thinking about the situation and me.

She was troubled by the "mess" and felt like there was no way out.

She didn't trust the changes.

She couldn't see anyone else being the father of her children, couldn't see a future with him.

She said "You can't trust me. I can't trust myself".

There was much more, of course. It is oh-so-very true about the addiction part of this.

I wanted you to know this, not to discourage you, but to give you hope. I'm pulling for you.

After 8 + months of separation, I had my wife back in my arms, remorseful, loving, at times as though NONE of this had ever occurred. I was oh so close.

I broke NC recently and offered an olive branch. Gently, but firm. I planted seeds, then resumed plan B. Two weeks later she came back, and it wasn't because of the seeds alone, it was because the affair was dying. On it's last breath.

My very best wishes for you, I'm not on this board often (intentionally), but I wanted to stop by your thread.

Stay the course,

Jay
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 09/12/07 05:27 AM
Thanks for that update, Jayban. I really appreciate the perspective.

I am both thrilled and crushed for you. How are you doing?
Posted By: foundareason Re: How long? - 09/12/07 05:38 AM
SD - twas good to meet you in LA.

I will pray for healing for you.

I surrendered last year at this time. OMG it was liberating.

I interact with my x almost daily, with no pain, except for my kids. No regret. No wondering if it could work. And I am very happy it turned out this way for me.

Now you have heard both sides of it. You can have peace either way.

Lets go get a coffee some time. I work in Clairemont.

far
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: How long? - 09/12/07 01:29 PM
Thanks SD! I found the book this morning and read it on the way to work...my Sponsor had it, so I borrowed it for a while...

I remember that she let me read it when I was still living at home with POWS...

I thought that it was a good reading...thank you for sharing that with us...I appreicate it and I respect you SOOO much for the person that you are! What a blessing, not only to us but to your kids!

I'm honored to know you! Have a great day! Keep your head up! you are doing awesome!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: How long? - 09/12/07 03:33 PM
December 5th

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: LilSis Re: How long? - 09/12/07 03:45 PM
No fair! You guys can't do this when I'm at work! I'm telling you...book club time.
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: How long? - 09/12/07 03:54 PM
I read mine on break...15 minutes to make sure that I'm in a good place...twice a day! LMAO

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: How long? - 09/12/07 03:56 PM
LilSis,
That'll teach you not to leave home without it (jk).

It's about difficult people. I would print it but it's quite long. Now why would Rin think we have difficult people in our lives???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Have a good day at work.

PS. we should start a new thread...

Still
Posted By: sdguy038 Language of Letting Go (and SDG, too) - 09/12/07 04:48 PM
Good one, Rin. I hadn't read that one yet. Thanks!

Sis, you can catch up later. It's about letting go of unrealistic expectations of other people and the frustration that comes from imagining/wanting/trying to force someone to be other than who they are.

No need to start a new thread--I like the activity!

FAR, thanks for dropping by and the perspective. It certainly seems that I am headed the way your situation did. I told my IC last night that if it goes that way I suspect I will someday meet someone who will make me wonder why I was with the SCQ in the first place. That's a concern for tomorrow, though. Today I'm living the day the best I can.
SD - in my case, I began to wonder why I would want to remain with a person who lied to me repeatedly-- before I met anyone. After I became comfortable with the idea that things actually worked out better for me, I began noticing that there were some (seemingly) decent women around.

Some that know, and live, the meaning of fidelity.

Well - I guess I noticed them earlier than I indicated....

far
Posted By: chrisner Re: Language of Letting Go (and SDG, too) - 09/13/07 05:38 PM
Hey SD and Far!

I am going to a coaches clinic at Pepperdine University on the 19th-21st of October. Not to far from the scene of the Fruits and Nuts gathering. It should be a lot of fun.

Hope you are doing well. You're sounding pretty good these days. I still get my anger moments but they are getting much further apart and far shorter in duration. Life goes on and can be so much better.

Hang tough.
Guy Smiley, you DO sound much better these days. Seems the meds may have hit their target and the reading is helping, too!

Whenever I see Chrisner post saying 'Hang tough', I think of that song by, um, lemme see if my pea sized brain can remember....OH, yeah, The New Kids on the Block--Hangin Tough!

[color:"blue"]Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
Listen up everybody if you wanna take a chance.
(rap:) just get on the floor and do the new kids dance.
Dont worry bout nothing cause it wont take long.
(rap:) were gonna put you in a trance with a funky song, cause you gotta be
Hangin tough, hangin tough, hangin tough.
(rap:) were rough.

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
Everybodys always talkin bout whos on top.
(rap:) dont cross our path cause youre gonna get stomped.
We aint gonna give anybody any slack.
(rap:) and if you try to keep us down were gonna come right back,
And you know were
Hangin tough, hangin tough, hangin tough.
(rap:) are you tough enough?
Hangin tough, hangin tough, hangin tough.
(rap:) were rough.

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
Get loose everybody cause were gonna do our thing.
(rap:) cause you know it aint over till the fat lady sings.
Hangin tough, hangin tough, hangin tough.
(rap:) are you tough enough?
Hangin tough, hangin tough, hangin tough.
(rap:) were rough.
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, just hangin tough, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, hangin tough.
(repeat & fade)
[/color]


Inspiring, no?
Posted By: chrisner Re: Language of Letting Go (and SDG, too) - 09/13/07 08:01 PM
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.

I don't know this one.

You're sure this was not Luciano Pavarotti? Maybe this is the translation to Puccini's Nessun Dorma.

Oh, oh, oh Luciano is Hanging Tough handing out goosebumps! Rest in Peace.
Good for you!
Posted By: chrisner Re: Language of Letting Go (and SDG, too) - 09/13/07 08:49 PM
Now if you're looking for real poetry in lyrics, look no further than Digital Underground’s Humpty Dance.

My name is Humpty, pronounced with a Umpty.
Yo ladies, oh how I like to hump thee.
And all the rappers in the top ten--please allow me to bump thee.
I'm steppin' tall, y'all,
and just like Humpty Dumpty
you're gonna fall when the stereos pump me.
I like to rhyme,
I like my beats funky,
I'm spunky. I like my oatmeal lumpy.
aw, geez! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Where do ya get this stuff!?

Fox
I love Digital Underground

The Humpty Dance, here's your chance to do da Hump (o,o do me baby) do da humpty hump...


So spiritual, so uplifting, so funky fresh
Posted By: chrisner Re: Language of Letting Go (and SDG, too) - 09/13/07 10:09 PM
No doubt the Humpty Dance sets the mood for those quiet romantic moments when you're gettin your groove on but let's not forget classic CW contributions to poetic lyrics.

Deana Carter
Did I Shave My Legs For This

Flowers and wine is what I thought I would find
When I came home from working tonight
Well now here I stand, over this frying pan
And you want a cold one again

I bought these new heels, did my nails
Had my hair done just right
I thought this new dress was a sure bet
For romance tonight
Well it's perfectly clear, between the TV and beer
I won't get so much as a kiss
As I head for the door I turn around to be sure
Did I shave my legs for this

Now when we first met you promised we'd get
A house on a hill with a pool
Well this trailer stays wet and we're swimmin' in debt
And now you want me to go back to school

I bought these new heels, did my nails
Had my hair done just right
I thought this new dress was a sure bet
For romance tonight
Well it's perfectly clear, between the TV and beer
I won't get so much as a kiss
As I head for the door I turn around to be sure
Did I shave my legs for this?

Darlin' did I shave my legs for this?



Wow! Where's the Kleenex? Talk about the Language of Letting Go!

See what happens when you don't guard your thread SD!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Language of Letting Go (and SDG, too) - 09/13/07 10:42 PM
I'm lost--what day are these lyrics coming from?
September 13. Geesh! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Fox
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 09/14/07 03:20 AM

Quote
Surrender is not something we can do in our heads. It is not something we can force or control by willpower.

This is the point I have been making to you over and over and over...

Does this mean you are finally getting it?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 09/14/07 06:18 PM
Quote
This is the point I have been making to you over and over and over...

Does this mean you are finally getting it?

Let's see. . . where did I leave that quote. . . oh, yeah. From April 3:

"Acceptance and surrender--two concepts that hurt the most before we do them."

I am feeling much better these days, a consequence of beginning to get it and the meds kicking in. Things aren't bothering me as much, but when I feel angry, I let myself feel angry. I will vent to people who let me (most do), vent to letters and journal (need to do more of this), and be done with it. I heard a song in the car this morning and thought about pulling over to have a controlled pity party ala Sis.

I'm still all over the place in terms of what I want. My IC asked me the other day what I want, and, in the vein of living for today without worrying about what tomorrow will bring, I said "I'm not sure what I want, but I know what I'm doing." She called me on it (how can you do anything if you don't know what you want), so I thought about it and realized that I want to be a family again. "And the SCQ? Do you want her as a wife or a mother?" my IC asked. I paused, because I only know who she is today, not who she will be tomorrow. "I want a real chance at reconciliation," because this would let me see who she can be. If she doesn't come back, however, I am ready for life without her.

It's hard for the kids. At the family meeting last week we were talking about stuff, and I brought up POSOM's name, and DD4 looked at me as if I had said a bad word (intuitive little creatures, they are). "So guys, it's true that I don't like POSOM very much and don't really like talking about him, but if there are things you want to tell me, I want you to tell me. For example, I think you (DS7) wanted to tell me about how you spent the night at POSOM's brother's house, right?" He nodded. Then I asked him if there things he wanted to tell Mommy that are too hard, and he said yes. I talked to him about how I could help him write a letter, or he could talk to my mom who could pass along his thoughts. It's an ongoing discussion. Later I asked him if there are things he wants to tell ME but it's too hard, and he said no.

And DD4 is more vocal with her dissatisfaction. She routinely doesn't want to go to the SCQ's place. Labor day weekend we had individual time with the kids, which DS7 called split-squad (like baseball spring training), so now DD4 is asking for more split-squad time with me. I ask whether she had a good time with Mommy during her last split-squad time, and she says no. It's hard to know with a 4-year old, but she's been pretty consistent with it.

Yesterday at day-care she drew a picture of her family (our provider made a point of drawing my attention to it). She explained it to me. There's a box that is our house that has DD4, me, and our kitten in it. DS7 is absent--a casualty of sibling competition, but far off to the side is the SCQ. It's sad, and not just because I have no arms in the picture.

I know that the relationship between my kids and their mother isn't mine to own or fix, but I think I'm going to send the picture over with the kids when they go back over there. It's tempting to attach a note saying that it doesn't have to be this way, but I'm thinking that's not a good idea. Suggestions welcome.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 09/14/07 08:23 PM
Quote
I know that the relationship between my kids and their mother isn't mine to own or fix, but I think I'm going to send the picture over with the kids when they go back over there. It's tempting to attach a note saying that it doesn't have to be this way, but I'm thinking that's not a good idea. Suggestions welcome.

So you can educate her (disrespectful judgement) so that she will "get it" on your timeline? (selfish demand)?

Stop listening to the whispers of Mr. Anti-Surrender.

GOD will ensure that your wife has ample opportunity to get it.

It's your job to stay out of God's way - His imagination is MUCH bigger than yours.
Posted By: LilSis Re: How long? - 09/14/07 11:01 PM
You are right. Not such a good idea.

Just let SCQ be. She's made her own bed. Stop rubbernecking to get a look at the car wreck, and look ahead at the wide open spaces in front of you. Make your life--and the kids lives--about what's out in front, not the carnage.

You are getting there. You are so close. Live your life--you and the kids--leave her be. Let God sort her out. He is the only one who can. He is the only one who can heal this stuff in her, and only if she lets Him. You have done all that you can.

And I love the conversation with the kids. I love the different ways you encourage them to express their feelings. You know intuitively that they shouldn't be keeping a balance in that anger bank, don't you?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 09/15/07 06:20 AM
Tonight I asked DD4 if she wanted to take the picture over to the SCQ's (comment-free from me), and she said "No. It's just for you and me."

Hard to argue with that.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 09/15/07 12:30 PM
your kids can teach you a few things...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 09/16/07 05:27 AM
I leave tomorrow for a business trip to the UK. A conference--I'm giving a talk and facilitating a couple of other meetings, so I'm somewhat stressed. Plus, I always experience some anxiety before business travel because I just don't like it much.

Any ideas for good England-themed souvenirs for the kids? What should I be on the lookout for?
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 09/16/07 10:49 AM
When I travel to Europe I usually bring back tshirts. Every souvenier shop has them, they don't take up too much space in the suitcase (I travel with one carry on, thats it) and the kids can wear them to school.

Of course, since I am always in Switzerland, I am required to bring back loads of chocolate...but that won't help you in the UK. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: How long? - 09/16/07 11:48 AM
GuySmiley,

Wow,,,, a business trip to the UK? I think that is outstanding! I get to travel to exotic places like Columbus, OH!!

Don't stress,,,, Enjoy as much as you can. Sorry I can't help with the souvenier ideas having never been there. I'm like BR, I go with what can be packed easily.

Have a GREAT trip!
Posted By: chrisner Re: How long? - 09/16/07 04:41 PM
Wow, there goes my big news about a 3-day business trip to Nashville in October (although I am going to try to run down to the Shiloh Battlefield one afternoon which is cool).

Get your son a modern Coldstream Guard action figure. Very cool red tunic and bearskin hat. Plus a rifle that will rival anything his Luke or Hans has. Let him start saving Princess Leah!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 09/19/07 07:21 AM
Thanks for the suggestions. I gave my presentation today, and it was well-received, so now I can relax a bit.

DD4 has been expressing an interest in Barbies lately (not something we encouraged but also not something we will deny), so I was kind of looking around for East End Barbie or Royal Family Skipper but haven't seen them. Guess maybe I'll have to go with t-shirts.
Posted By: LilSis Re: How long? - 09/25/07 01:15 AM
So how was the trip? What did you bring back?

And don't do anything stupid, or I'm telling.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 09/25/07 03:05 AM
Hey, thanks for digging out my thread, Sis. I always seem to schedule business trips with no time to do anything on the side, so my shopping time was reduced to a) after 6, when England is closed, or b) 45 minutes at the Gatwick airport before my flight. I went with teddy bears wearing Union Jack sweatshirts and a small London double-decker bus (not that I saw a real one). It was good enough. I could have brought back a rock from the beach, and DD4 would have thought it was wonderful.

The trip was good. Met lots of nice colleagues. Heard lots of very impressive science. Saw some cool old building. Ate some . . . food (I will avoid my riff on English cuisine so as not to offend any potential readers from the UK, but suffice it to say that I don't consider food to be among their finer contributions to modern culture).

On Saturday morning, I had tickets to take the kids onto the field at Petco Park (where the Padres play), so I got the kids back Friday night two hours after my plane got back in. Something like 18 hours travel time. I'm just about recovered now. The kids went pretty easy on me.

Quote
And don't do anything stupid

So I was kidding when I wrote that, but, thinking about it on the way home, stupid possibilities abound.

Wednesday, for example, is the full moon. The full moon was always special for us--we first kissed under a full moon, and it remained significant during our relationship (or the early portion, anyway). The SCQ had a moon watch--one that mechanically tracks the phase of the moon throughout the month. When the first one died, she got another one just like it. Eventually, she quit wearing watches. So at some point last summer, when I was trying to connect with her, I waited til a full moon, had one of the watches fixed and gave it to her along with an anniversary card in which I had counted up the number of full moons it had been in between our first kiss and the card. She looked at me like I was nuts.

Anyway. Wednesday. Full moon. Also our 15th wedding anniversary. So there are all kinds of stupid things I could do. Send her a card, trying to make her feel it (or see whether she does feel anything anymore). Go talk to her and find out whether she's happy with her decisions. Go out to a bar looking for tawdry sex (where are those bars, anyway?).

Or work through the kids, and tell the SCQ about how DD4 complains every time she has to go back over to Mommy's. It's every time now. I asked her if she complains about coming back to our house, and she said "No, I like it here."

Or if I really want to make sure I get BR's attention, I could mention how girl-watching has become my favorite sport (again). Tonight at yoga I got a cramp in my neck just after doing a shoulder-stand. The instructor felt bad about it and asked me if I was checking my shoulder-stand by looking in the mirror, because turning your head while your body is all contorted like that isn't a good idea. I told her no, because I wasn't looking at my shoulder stand, but I realized that I *had been* craning my neck over to look at Holly (and the impressive head stand she was doing). The neck is better now.

Ah, yes, the possibilities abound.
Posted By: LilSis Re: How long? - 09/25/07 09:55 AM
Quote
Ah, yes, the possibilities abound.
They most certainly do!

And you've covered a good bit of them. Given the fact that your anniversary is approaching, there's probably no way around considering them. Maybe it's even healthy to imagine various scenarios, just as long as they always end the same way: a blank stare from SCQ and crickets chirping.

Sort of a blast of cold water on your wonderfully and imaginatively contrived drama.

You sound well, even though I imagine you are still jet laggy, and as a result, probably vulnerable emotionally.

Hey, nothing wrong with just looking, in my book. Don't break your neck doing it though. How'd that be for karma? Jeez.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 09/25/07 05:52 PM
Quote
on your wonderfully and imaginatively contrived drama.

Quote
Don't break your neck doing it though. How'd that be for karma?

It so happens that Holly is one of the site nurses. If we had connected while she was treating the neck muscle and gone on to a wonderful relationship. . . I mean, karma can work both ways, right?

I'm just joking, of course.

And the drive to do all that other stuff is only noticable when I go looking for it. I think I'm developing a new persona--Captain Acceptance. I'm not sure exactly what he will be like, but I suspect that his personal sound effect will be crickets chirping.
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: How long? - 09/26/07 02:18 AM
LMAO...You are a NUT...good to hear that you are doing well and sound great!!!

Captain Acceptance...LMAO...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: How long? - 09/26/07 10:48 AM
Captain Acceptance,

Good for you! Glad you are doing well. Watch out for those girl watching injuries!! The skills required for that have been dormant for a while, so take care when exercising them again. Take it slow to avoid injury!!
Posted By: Jamesus Re: How long? - 09/26/07 05:04 PM
SDGuy.. I'm pretty new here.. and with my D-Day following my WW filing for D only about a month ago things are pretty raw for me.

I have to say though, your stamina through all of this, and the amazing father you are to your kids is an inspiration to me.

I'm not so sure I'm ready to dig my heels in for the long ride like this, but if that's what it takes to put my family back together then at least I have a template in you to see what seems to work and what doesn't when I'm ready to go to my Plan B.

I can't thank you enough for sharing all you've gone through, and just want you to know that you and your kids, and even the SCQ will be in my prayers.

You're an amazing guy.. an inspiration to others, and a true hero to your kids.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 09/26/07 08:42 PM
Thanks for those very kind words, Jamesus, and for reading my story. I think I've only glanced at your thread in the past--sometimes dealing with one's own mess is all one can handle--but I'll try to drop by more often. Just in looking, I can see that you've been getting some great advice lately, in particular from MrW and Graycloud.

I had lunch today with a couple of friends I hadn't seen for a while and so had/got to give the update. Very much 'this is how it is, there's nothing else I can do about it, it's not how I would choose things to be, I'm okay and the kids seem to be, too.'

My anniversary is today, but I can't say that I feel anything for it. Don't know what that means.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: How long? - 09/27/07 11:10 AM
GuySmiley,,,,,

Anniversary yesterday? I know that's a tough one, even if you are at the "I don't know what or how I feel" stage about it.

Glad you spent some time with friends, but I understand how it is to give that "update" report to folks you haven't seen. At times you really have to get it all out, and other times it like Joe Friday "Just the facts".

{{HUGS}}
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: How long? - 09/27/07 12:27 PM
SDGuy,

I hope I'm as strong as you when my 23rd anniversary come up in a little over a week. I actually dread this one more than last year!

Not sure what I'm planning to do....for me. Have thought about giving him a last anniversary card. I know not a great idea. Did find one that I could incorporate how I had loved him.

Keep being strong and the great dad that you are.

(((hugs)))

Still
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 09/27/07 01:21 PM
I let the dogs out into the back yard for their final romp of the night, and took a moment to look up at the full moon. The night was muggy, and I could hear nature's night life boogyin down, the frogs, the toads, the birds, various noisy night creatures and especially....

THE CRICKETS!!!!

The sky was clear and the moon looked so unreal; it was so sharp and IN FOCUS. The light was so intense that I couldn't see the stars. It was like the moon was saying--LOOK AT ME!!! I could make out all of these craters and changes, it was cool.

I have one really good memory of my grandmother (she was not--um, very kind). It was summer in Virginia, it was evening, and the moon was hanging low in the sky, sorta with a tinge of orange. My Mammy told me to look for the woman in the moon. She began describing how to find it. Once I really focused, I could see it! It was really cool. I have a hard time finding her these days, because I don't remember exactly how Mammy described her.

Last night, I tried to find her again, to no avail, but it's a fun challenge. Maybe little corny for some, but it's the only really happy memory I have with her.

I thought about Guy Smiley, and if I had had one on me, I would have hoisted a drink to you. Mmmmmmm, wine.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 09/27/07 04:37 PM
Thanks, SL--that's nice. I didn't look at the sky last night. It wasn't deliberate, it just didn't cross my mind. I had the kids back, and we were doing stuff. Plus, it might have been cloudy. I know we had fog as I was going to bed. Glad you had a nice moment with the heavens last night. I really enjoy those.

I don't know what to tell you about your anniversary, Still. It depends upon where you are. If you're still working your plan B, then don't. If you're Done and it will give you some kind of closure, I guess I don't see any harm.

It was easy for me to not do anything. Maybe because I have detached. I don't miss her, or at least not much (I miss having *someone*, but not necessarily her). When I was talking with my friends yesterday I said what I want is for the biological parents of my children to be in love, which is not the same as wanting the SCQ back.

There was a piece on NPR this morning about ovarian cancer and how it goes undetected in lots of women, and it made me wonder. If the SCQ had ovarian cancer, would I care? Would the hurt/anger/resentment let me care? I don't know the answer.

Heavy stuff. I feel really good.
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: How long? - 09/27/07 05:39 PM
SDGuy,

I haven't been in plan B for awhile now. Although communication is pretty limited. He hates the fact I barely look at him at our kids soccer games. I really don't kow what he expects?

I had told him last week that we might have been able to be friends but unfortunately he did this in the most hurtful way. That I don;t think he will ever understand how much he hurt me , until it happens to him. That I don't want friends in my life that have done to me what he has done. That I gave him everything I had and he betrayed me not once but twice. That he has destroyed and lost my love, friendship and respect. Maybe someday he may be willing to earn that back but I wasn't holding my breathe.

So no I'm not in plan B, but keeping my distance from him as best I can until after the D and then interaction will be even less.

Still
Posted By: chrisner Re: How long? - 10/04/07 08:23 PM
So here I was trolling around on page 3 and I stumble onto this thread.

What are you doing? Sterilizing Sippy Cups (registered trade name)? Listening to crickets? Building little ships in bottles?
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: How long? - 10/04/07 08:32 PM
Don't bother him, chris! He's preparing the batmobile for the trip to Montana with a shovel.

Seriously, though....update, sdguy?

Fox
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 10/04/07 08:42 PM
...shining his shovel?

How does one build little ships IN bottles? Is there a shrink ray that I have not been made aware of?
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: How long? - 10/04/07 08:55 PM
Oh, SL, you're too funny. I've always wondered that myself!

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: How long? - 10/04/07 09:02 PM
You build them outside the bottle with thier masts laying down on the hull but all rigged together. You insert the ship into the bottle then reach in with a hook to raise the masts.

Or were you asking about how to shine a shovel?
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: How long? - 10/04/07 09:06 PM
chrisner...you're so smart. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I swear that I've seen ships (hulls only) that would not fit through the neck of the bottle. But, I could be wrong. Probably not, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Fox
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 10/04/07 09:31 PM
Foxy, I can't imagine you being wrong. NO way.

No I was asking if you shrink yourself, climb into the bottle, build the ship, leave the bottle, and then deshrink. DUH!
Posted By: chrisner Re: How long? - 10/04/07 09:31 PM
You have to admire a Plan B so dark that the visitors to your thread talk about building ships in bottles and shining shovels.

A shrinking ray? That sounds like a diet for me!

Deshrink? I think it's deshrinkifie. Or deshrinkation. But not deshrink.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 10/04/07 09:34 PM
Well, he!!s bells, I would love that diet too, as it is, I'm stuck eating what amounts to REAL FOOD these days. BLECH!!! I need a diet rich in chocolate and wine. Hmmmm, maybe if I didn't eat anything else...

Funny, chrisner, I was thinking the same thing about SUPER DARK GUY. He's gone so dark, he was lulled to sleep.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 10/04/07 09:36 PM
Nope, the clinical term IS deshrink.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 10/04/07 09:37 PM
And now that I've said that all I can picture in George Castanza talking about shrinkage.

Elaine--It shrinks?

Castanza--SIGNIFICANTLY!!!
Posted By: chrisner Re: How long? - 10/04/07 09:43 PM
Quote
Nope, the clinical term IS deshrink.

Well you are the cold room protien scientist so okay. But I do understand shrinkage.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 10/04/07 09:51 PM
I do, sometimes, work at room temperature also.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 10/04/07 10:35 PM
Hey, what the ******'s going on in here? Boy, you leave your thread dormant for a couple of weeks and your friends come around and spruce up the joint for you. Nice.

I misplaced my keys to the Batmobile and I'm in dark Plan B so I don't want to ask the SCQ for the spares. So I've been spending my time researching ceramic shovels--you know, something I can get through the metal detector at the airport.

I actually started to type out an update this morning and got as far as crickets chirping (like, ten whole words) before I ran out of steam. Really nothing to report, but I will put something together anyway.

Probably have to figure out how to shrink the ceramic shovel, too. Damn.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 10/04/07 10:40 PM
Quote
Nope, the clinical term IS deshrink.

Deshrink is deguy I go to for dedrugs.

Edit: *rimshot*

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Edit: **crickets chirping**

I'll be here all week.
Posted By: chrisner Re: How long? - 10/04/07 10:46 PM
Quote
Deshrink is deguy I go to for dedrugs.

...

Thank you. Thank you very much.

...

I'll be here all week.

** crickets chirping **
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: How long? - 10/04/07 10:50 PM
Quote
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deshrink is deguy I go to for dedrugs.

...

Thank you. Thank you very much.

...

I'll be here all week.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



** crickets chirping **


Small chuckle,,,,,, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Jamesus Re: How long? - 10/04/07 11:21 PM
GuySmiley

You rock


P.S. Can I borrow some crickets? I think I'm gonna need em.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 10/05/07 11:36 AM
Quote
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nope, the clinical term IS deshrink.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Deshrink is deguy I go to for dedrugs.

Edit: *rimshot*

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Edit: **crickets chirping**

I'll be here all week.


And this is what I get for trying to EDUCATE you guys.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: How long? - 10/05/07 12:06 PM
Silent,

Did you have brothers growing up? Remember, girls grow up,,,, boys just get bigger! LOL!!
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 10/05/07 12:47 PM
and their toys get bigger too! or more complicated.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: How long? - 10/08/07 04:21 AM
you miss my thumps, huh?

no need to disturb the crickets....

honestly...I've just been incredibly stressed out with work stuff...revisiting a few issues that I had conquered in my personal life only to find them resurfacing in my professional life...yuck.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 10/09/07 03:55 AM
Things have been very quiet. No contact with the SCQ since she brought the kids home late, what, two months ago? And something like two emails in the last two weeks about kid stuff. Crickets.

The last time I saw her was last Sunday, when she dropped off the kids. The kids came to the door without her, and I was greeting them in the front room, and I happened to see her through the window (the blinds weren't closed). She was stopping to look at a big potted jade plant, then she quickly looked back at the house before leaving. Not enough water? Who knows.

I've been feeling much better, due both to different meds and the detachment/acceptance process. I still get angry, but not as angry, and it doesn't last as long. Occasionally, ways to try to fix the situation (or, alternatively, really hurtful true things to say) still pop into my head, but they are easier to disregard.

No news on the divorce front. She was making noises a couple of months ago, then I emailed her and told her I would prefer she left some of the equity in the house, and she said she'd think about it. Nothing since then. At some point, her lawyer asked my lawyer to propose a settlement. I told my lawyer (the other day) that I didn't feel like proposing anything, and why don't they propose something? At the moment, I'm content to let it play out without rushing it.

The urge to date has subsided. I think that was just an urge to *do something that might make me feel better.* Once I started feeling better, it seemed less important. Girl-watching, on the other hand, is still very important.

The kids are okay. For a while, DD4 was complaining whenever it was time to go back to the SCQ's and hitting me with the heavy complaints ("I wish Mommy would come home," "Mommies aren't supposed to leave their families," etc.) but over the past 10 days or so I haven't gotten any.

DS7 has been a bit more troubled--he pointed out that we haven't had a family meeting lately, so I asked him one night what he wanted to talk about. He said opinions (the standing agenda has Opinions on it, which is where the kids usually talk about wanting Mommy to come home), and when I asked him if he wanted me to help him write a letter to the SCQ saying some of the things that are too hard for him to say, he said yes. We haven't done it yet, though.

We spent quite a bit of time watching baseball. I don't believe I've mentioned on here that I am a die-hard Cubs fan. Sigh.

So I'm living day to day. What little hope I have left is wrapped up in a box sitting on a shelf, ready to be taken down if necessary (I think Fox coined that). It's hard to imagine these that she will be able to do the things necessary to recover our marriage, and I'm not sure that I want her to. But the reality is that I'm not thinking about it--I'm not trying to picture it or hoping for it. I'm just living.

I was talking with my IC the other day, and it came out that the thought of things being OVER made me uneasy. She asked why, and I thought about it and said "It's funny. I believe that I will probably go out and meet someone so great that it will make me wonder what the ****** I was doing with the SCQ for so long, but at the same time, it's just wrong. Paradox.

Anyway, there's the update. Thanks for checking in on me. BR, I hope things improve at work soon.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: How long? - 10/09/07 10:44 AM
Hey Guy!

Thanks for the update, as I have been wondering about you.

Sounds like it's going pretty good. You are continuing to handle the kids so well!

Sorry to hear you are a Cubs fan! Well, I'll be honest, I am not too, too sorry as I'm a Cards fan! LOL! Honestly, I WAS rooting for your boys post-season, too.

Quote
So I'm living day to day. What little hope I have left is wrapped up in a box sitting on a shelf, ready to be taken down if necessary (I think Fox coined that). It's hard to imagine these that she will be able to do the things necessary to recover our marriage


Once again, words that could come from me! Although I guess I need to say something about starting a new M in my case. Oops!

I like that you are throwing it back to her court to make a proposal! Good job.

Stay strong my friend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: NeverToLate Re: How long? - 10/09/07 10:55 AM
Hey, sdguy, as you probably know, next year is the 100 year mark for the Cubs not winning a championship. Hopefully it will happen then and you can celebrate with us. I am getting a little tired of the "there's always next year" excuse. For me it has been going for 36 years now....
Chin up man, you will be all right !!!!
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 10/09/07 12:30 PM
Honestly, it sounds like it should be. Cozy and quiet. I like that you punted the 'proposal' thing back at the WW. Good job! now, enough about SCQ.

Get out there and water that jade plant! Sheesh.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 10/09/07 03:15 PM
Quote
Honestly, it sounds like it should be. Cozy and quiet.

Yeah, I think so. At the same time, I have occasional impulses to ask "Okay, *now* what? I got to this place of [mostly] peace, so what do I do now?"

I think the answer is that I don't have to do anything. Just be. At least for a while. So that's what I'm trying to do.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: How long? - 10/10/07 11:54 AM
Quote
Okay, *now* what? I got to this place of [mostly] peace, so what do I do now?"



I dunno, start takin out crickets with a BB gun? Could be fun---or, um, inhumane, depends on your feelings about the little critters. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: How long? - 10/10/07 12:05 PM
LMAO...First Thank you for the B-day wish!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Second, LIVE LIFE!!! HAVE FUN!!! YES, JUST BE...enjoy the clouds, a little breeze on your face...the way the kids look at each other, or the look on their face when they are trying real hard to figure something out...

Get in touch with your inner child, laugh more, love more...

For me this is the part that came after I found the peace and senerity! For so long, life lived ME, now it's my turn to live life...

LMAO...just my 2 cents!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It's a bright new world... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Jamesus Re: How long? - 10/10/07 12:28 PM
Just keep smilin Guy Smiley..

It's like people keep telling me over on my thread.. and advice I really need to start listening to more and more.

To paraphrase a few bits of wisdom: Is it -enough- for you right now to simply have that 'peace' in your life? You've fought long and hard to get to this point. Is there a need in you to continue to -do- something? If so, if you need love in your life, maybe it's time to start loving yourself. Realize that you are your own best friend, the guardian of your own inner thoughts. You must look in the mirror and realize that you know yourself better than anyone else.. Once you can carry on a relationship with yourself and -be happy-.. then you've totally done it. You've recovered even if your M doesn't. At that point it really won't matter to you whether or not the M recovers.. and it will open up the doors to your life again.

Like the old saying goes: Nobody can love us, unless we love ourselves first.

Personally I'm just now starting to use MB principles on myself.. and refilling my own personal account. Who knows.. maybe I'll even get to be romantically in love with myself.. but no sharing that on the boards please.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You've got a lot going for you man, you're a great dad, a strong man of character, and heck.. you've given plenty of yourself to help others here. That says a lot about the guy you are. You're the prize.. and who is to say that you can't win yourself in all of this?
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: How long? - 10/10/07 12:52 PM
GuySmiley,

As a friend told me the other day when we were having the "Now What?" discussion - - the possibilities are Infinite.

And you know what, she is right - for BOTH of us.

Yet, I suspect that you, like me, are not quite ready to face INFINITE possibilities. I don't WANT Infinite possibilities just yet. And that is OK.

As you said, for now, it is just fine to simply BE. BE in the moment. BE in the here & now. That is enough,,,,, for now.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 10/10/07 06:25 PM
Quote
I dunno, start takin out crickets with a BB gun?

Now there's a thought. If I did that, do you think I would get more respect when I head up to Fox country? On second thought, probably not. I guess I just better bring along the ceramic shovel.

More importantly, I have taken the plunge! We knew it would eventually happen but were putting it off as long as possible, and now I have gone ahead and done it! I bought two Barbie dolls for DD4. The kids come home tonight, so it should be fun. DD4 seems amazingly appreciative for a 4-year old. She's always thanking me for taking them to the beach or for having gotten the kitten or just little stuff. I have great kids.

Thanks for all the thoughts about Being rather than Doing. I'm actually very comfortable being by myself and savor a good chunk of my alone time. After having the kids for four days straight, I'm *ready* for some down time. I think Jennifer would fret about that a little bit--that I'm training myself to be single rather than a good relationship partner, but it is what it is right now.

Like you said, Bugsy--infinite possibilities. They're out there when we're ready for them. I'm not just yet.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: How long? - 10/10/07 10:02 PM
GS,

Personally, I think Barbie still rocks! I will NEVER forget the year that Santa brought me the very first Barbie RV!!! Then the pool the next year!! I even had "Malibu" Barbie who got a tan out in the sun!!

You are a Rockin Dad! Enjoy it. Like I just told James,,,,BASK in that admiration, you deserve it!

I think we'll be spending quite a lot of time knocking around here, being parents, and just "BEING" for a while. Some day, the right day will come along to do or BE something a little different.

I'm cool with that, and I think you are too!

Enjoy that down time!
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: How long? - 10/11/07 01:45 PM
WOW, AWESOME DADDY ALERT!!!!

POWS didn't get the kids anything and I don't expect that to ever change...it will be MIL who does stuff like that!!!

I stand and Applaude you!!! LMAO...

Just dropping in this morning b/f all my co-workers show up! LMAO...

I'm on the FAST computer!! LMAO...unlike the [email]cr@ppy[/email] one that I got STUCK with at home!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

it's all good! Great job on living life BTW!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 10/11/07 06:40 PM
Thanks, Rin and Bugs. I didn't mention how I went clothes shopping on Sunday or the lunches I make or how the meals I cook always have vegetables in them. I think I do a pretty good job.

Minor trigger this morning. The request for parent-teacher conferences came home yesterday, so I sought out DS7's teacher this morning and asked her if she could do separate conferences. She politely replied with "Let me check my schedule."

Not what I was hoping to hear. I can see why she would be reluctant to make more work for herself, but I don't really have any intention of attending a conference with the SCQ. The whole thought of it sent me down the 'this is silly that I have to live like this -- it would be easier if I just chucked the marriage and just started living that way, and if something the SCQ doesn't want to hear comes out of my mouth, too bad' thought process. It was quick--I got over it without incident, but the simplest things can be triggers.

I think I need to spend some more time with his teacher--she deserves to know what's going on with DS7, and she hasn't heard it yet. And I expect I overreacted. I'm sure she will make time to talk with me, but she probably only has a limited number of the official conference slots for their box-checking exercise.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: How long? - 10/11/07 09:08 PM
GS,

I just dealt with the whole scheduling of parent/teacher conference, too.

Originally, at the beginning of school, I signed up in advance for a time. I don't think Drac did. I had left that up to him as it is no longer my 'job'.

Well, turns out that I have to be out of town next week on the night that her conference is scheduled. I am feeling generous today, so I offered to let Drac have that appt. and he's going to go. I am sending a note to DD's teacher tomorrow explaining this and will be asking for another time slot for me.

I am sure that they deal with divorced parents ALL of the time. Is it more work having 2 conferences for some kids, sure, but that's their job. Don't get me wrong. I LOVE teachers. I think they are VERY underpaid for the job and responsibility they have. But when it comes to my baby girl, I will stand up and be firm! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree, I am sure she will find the time for you.

Sorry you had a trigger today! Atleast now you can recognize it, deal with it, and move on. Good job!

{{Guy Smiley}}
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 10/12/07 02:40 AM
There was a message on my answering machine tonight from DS7's teacher explaining that, while she was very sympathetic for my position, she had talked with the principial, and that the district places a lot of importance on one conference with both parents (so that there can be no case of mixed messages). Last year, his teacher did separate conferences, but she was recently divorced herself, so maybe that made the difference. It smacks of worry about liability, which is pretty annoying.

I'll figure out a way around it. I'm not being unreasonable about not attending with the SCQ, am I? I mean, the SCQ would say I was being childish, but avoiding her is the right thing to do, isn't it?

Then just after listening to the voice message, DS7 wanted to go outside and play catch with the 15 mins of remaining daylight. In retrospect, I should have just said no and started dinner, but I agreed. Then DD4 wanted to come out and play catch, too, and of course she can't keep up with him, and the fact that I tried to include her caused him to melt down (probably hungry and tired), and so no one played catch. We pulled it back together, though. It's just so trying sometimes.

Good luck with your conference, Bugs.
Posted By: LilSis Re: How long? - 10/12/07 03:48 AM
I just did my little box checking exercise, too. I'm not giving WH a thought, frankly. If WH wants a conference, then he can set one up. I checked the boxes for the times that worked for me. Like Bugs said, he's not my problem and it is no longer my responsibility to make sure the planets are in alignment prior to scheduling these things.

There is tremendous freedom in being responsible for only one adult: me.

Prior to d-day, we always made a point to go conferences together. WH didn't make one last year...either spring or fall, for either of his sons.

You are in a trickier spot, as the dad. And it does smack of some weird liability thing.

Don't let the late afternoon melt-down get you down. Try to let it roll off, just like every other time when the kids get to HALT: hungry angry lonely tired.

It is just an unfortunate way to end a day, I know. It is very trying sometimes. Very trying.

Hang in there.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How long? - 10/12/07 05:38 AM
We always went to the conferences together, too, going back to pre-school. She would still have it that way. I'm the one who doesn't want to be in the same room with her, so it's up to me to deal with this. The school has made it clear what their expectation is.

I'll work it out. It's the mystique around the conference that brings out special rules and stuff. I'll set something up with her outside of "conference time" to talk about things. No big deal.

I must be overtired. I've had a bit of a short fuse for most of the day. And now I have a strong urge to unload on the SCQ. Probably time to write another letter.
Posted By: LilSis Re: How long? - 10/12/07 10:19 AM
Yes, you will be fine, sd (more than fine, actually). Look how well you recognize your own frame of mind: acknowledging that you are on edge, and acknowledging one of the very underlying causes of that "edginess," SCQ.

This is SO much further along than the anger bank days. Remember the old anger bank? You are not maintaining a huge balance in there anymore, are you? The balance accrues to a certain point, and now it triggers a need to deplete some of that anger.

Write the letter. I don't remember which day, but there is a great one about letting it out, letting yourself be angry. It does a great job of showing you why it's okay to give yourself permission to feel those feelings.

They need to be vented. Underneath the anger is YOU. Not a BH. No mask and cape. Just you.

Have a great day.
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: How long? - 10/12/07 01:33 PM
SD-

Kudos on the awareness...Do you know about H.A.L.T.?

Hungry
Angry
Lonely
Tired

If you are one on these FIX it right away...

And you thought that you were tired...and thought that you needed to write a letter...AWESOME!!!

I've had to write a leter to POWS several times!

Just wanted to pat you on the back! You are doing Great!
Posted By: sdguy038 Anger - 10/14/07 11:32 PM
I've been having a hard time over the past five days or so. Lots of anger, and I'm having a hard time shaking it. I want the SCQ to hurt--to feel the consequences of what she's done and continues to do. All the things I haven't said over the past year are churning and want to be said to her.

Instead of looking for reasons to keep going, I want to make lists of reasons why I'm better off without W in my life. Or make lists of all the times she lied to me and I believed it.

I guess I'm falling off the acceptance bandwagon. I'm probably doing it to myself somehow, but I really want everyone (including my children) to see the evil that she and the POSOM are perpetrating.

I want some reason to keep doing what I'm doing as opposed to calling it quits.
Posted By: BrambleRose Anger - 10/14/07 11:36 PM
There is nothing wrong with making a list of all the crap she has done wrong.

Write that nasty letter. Let it out so you can let it go.

Read December 2.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/15/07 01:25 AM
Just posting about the anger made me feel a bit better. I still haven't written the letter, but I will.

Work any better?
Posted By: LilSis Re: Anger - 10/15/07 10:15 AM
I've been struggling with anger the couple of days as well. Maybe it's a cyclical thing?

For me I believe that it has to do with being at loose ends when the boys are gone. No matter how many plans I make, there are still those times when I'm alone, aware of my alone-ness, and it pi$$es me off.

Do you notice a similar relationship between anger and the absence of the kids, or is it just me?

Either way, it's not as if you don't have plenty to be angry about. I guess it's just what you do with it. Hold on to it, or let it go.

Unfortunately, it seems like letting go is a constant process. Did you read Neak's post in AJ's 70x7 thread? She had a really good point about how the things that need to be forgiven (or in our case, the things to be angry about) continue to bubble up...we are constantly reminded of the hurt, and we need to deal with each recurrence.

I thought it was interesting, because I don't believe she was referring to "triggers" necessarily. We don't need to be "triggered" to remember the hurt....thus feel the anger.

Rambling here about my OWN stuff....
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Anger - 10/15/07 11:37 AM
SD,

I agree, nothing at all with feeling that anger! Seems normal and healthy to me, as long as you channel it appropriately - - which seems to me you are doing.

I get my share of those days, too, so don't think you are alone.

Hope you have a Good Week!
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Anger - 10/15/07 11:51 AM
December 7 is good for you and Sis too.

Work is slowing down a little - most of it is going to take time. I thought I had completely come to terms with my fear of aggressive men (family issues stemming from my dad) - until last week when an angry man started making unreasonable demands of me - it had me totally shutting down. Obviously I have work to do on myself still. I will never survive in this matrix management environment if high level men scare me!

Anyway - sd - the anger is OK. I think that you have these times without kids, these quiet times with nothing to do, just so you can have the time and safety to let out the anger.

Feeling anger is not a step backward, its a step forward.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Anger - 10/15/07 12:41 PM
I know for me at least it's the moments without the kids that I allow myself to be angry. I think it's really gone a long way towards helping me let go of some of the emotions that bubble up over time regarding WW.

If WS won't let us show emotion by loving them.. they at least can't stop us from venting our frustration and anger as an emotional outlet.. that's our choice... how we vent and release those emotions is also our choice.. what makes us better people is finding better ways to do so.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/15/07 05:17 PM
Thanks, BR. Those were good days. My personality is such that I am actually well-suited to living with uncertainty, so I can't imagine how people who demand more structure do this. Maybe they don't.

Ramble away, Sis (and James and Bugs). We all move through the same stages and emotions, it seems. For me, the anger hits me when the unpleasant reality of the situation stares me in the face. So, that's not always when I'm without the kids, because I value some alone time. Sometimes it's when both kids want (and deserve) my attention but there's only one of me. Or when I get clues that yes, the adultery is still going strong (I try pretty hard not to look over the fence). Or when I realize the truth about another one of the lies she told me during false recovery.

It's still easier to see the negatives in my situation than the positives. What's happening is just wrong. Maybe my need to be right is exerting itself again. I want the SCQ to see what she's done--how it cost her the respect of just about everyone who knows her (including her kids, someday), half of her time with her children, her job, her comfortable life. I've been seeing this one on other threads, so to let you know that I feel the same way: I want her to acknowledge that it was a mistake. And apologize for it.

I know enough not to hold my breath waiting for this, though. Even if she were to put it all together, I think she would prefer to slink away to her own misery than do something brave, like step forward and take responsibility for her mistakes. That would draw attention to her. It might make a scene. It would make it obvious that things are not "fine."

Yech. Gotta get some of this poison out of me and live better. I recognize that I need to do better at finding social things to do. The 'adult education at the local adult education place' flyer came the other day, and I actually took a look at it (but didn't find anything interesting).

On Saturday, I checked out the local parasailing port and decided that next weekend I'm going to go. You can just show up and take a tandem ride right over the coast. I've been meaning to do it for years now. I'm going to bring my camera--if I can figure out how, I'll post pictures.

For now, though, I better do some work.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/16/07 11:45 PM
Email exchange with the SCQ. Our custody agreement is such that we each get a weekend day with the kids (i.e., no one gets a whole weekend). In August, when she was trying to get me to renegotiate this agreement, she said:

Quote
For normal weekends would you even consider having a mixed weekend agreement where some weekends are split and other aren't, 1 complete weekend each and the others as they are now?

Yesterday, she sent this:

Quote
Will you at least consider this now if you will not consider full weekends every weekend with split squad, as they call it, thrown in there?

"Split squad" is a reference to us each having one kid so that they get some individual time (at least with me, they do). My response:

Quote
I will listen on weekends, but this is where I am
right now: I like the split squad weekends and could
see doing those once a month or so. I will take the
kids for a full weekend any time you want to schedule
something else. I am not currently interested in
giving up my weekend days with the kids (i.e., going a
whole weekend without seeing them unless I am going to
travel).

And she responded with:

Quote
Either this weekend or the weekend of the November 3rd can you take the kids on Sunday too? This would be a trade of a Sunday on either side of those weekends.

And I breathed a bit of a sigh of relief, thinking that this is more about her being able to do things requiring a whole weekend and less about wanting the kids to be able to travel with the POSOM, so I said:

Quote
Sure, I would love to. I think my preference is for Nov 3 weekend because I have something tentatively planned for this Sunday, but it's flexible.

So now she has come back with:

Quote
Thanks. Would you prefer that I have them on the 28th or the 11th?

which is a bit of a dilemma. Was this all a bait-and-switch to get a whole weekend to travel with the kids? And am I obsessing too much over her taking the kids with the OM on a trip? It would actually be convenient if she has the kids on the 28th, because there's a trip I would like to take, but if the whole thing is about her being able to travel with the kids and the OM, then I won't. Am I being unreasonable/childish about that? Should I let it go?

Here is what I sent:

Quote
Wait. I thought that I was just taking them for you rather than agreeing to give up one of my Sundays. I'm not sure I want to do that.

Opinions/analysis invited.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Anger - 10/16/07 11:55 PM
I think you're on the right track SDGuy.

You clearly stated before that you didn't want to give up your weekend day with the kids.

Stick to your boundaries.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/17/07 12:13 AM
And now

Quote
Why would you think that? In my original email I said it was a trade.

and I responded

Quote
Because I misunderstood what you wrote. And because I just told you that I would take them when you needed me to but that I didn't want to give up my weekend days.

Want the Wednesday before the weekend?
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Anger - 10/17/07 12:21 AM
I agree with James here; you were clear that you did not want to give up YOUR weekend time, but we're fine with getting MORE time with the kids.

Your next response should be simple. Nope, not interested if I lose my time with the children.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/17/07 12:29 AM
now

Quote
It isn't causing you to give up a weekend day. You still have a Sunday just a different one. It actually give you more of a quality weekend.

Sigh. I think this makes it pretty clear that her intent was to get a full weekend with the kids so that she can do what she wants. Does she think I'm an idiot?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/17/07 12:41 AM
Honestly, is this a battle worth fighting? The main driver for me is that I don't want her to be able to take the kids on trips with the POSOM.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Anger - 10/17/07 12:53 AM
Stick to your schedule as tightly as you can. Tell her you are not interested, but thanks for the offer. DO NOT ELABORATE AT ALL. If you don't NEED to switch times, don't.

Also, don't think of it as apples to apples, you are not in the business of doing favors for one another, either you want to do it or you don't, regardless of WHO she will be with or not. She's asking you for a favor. First, decide if you want to do that. If not, then don't. AND don't think of when you may or may not need her to help you in the future; that is a FUTURE choice.

Stop the emails with a short response of not being interested.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/17/07 01:08 AM
I know it's too many emails. I told myself I was going to hold off on responding, but then I sent this:

Quote
It's important to me to see the kids *every* weekend unless I have to travel. From that perspective, I would be giving up a weekend day. This is what I meant when I wrote:

"I will take the kids for a full weekend any time you want to schedule something else. I am not currently interested in giving up my weekend days with the kids (i.e., going a whole weekend without seeing them unless I am going to travel)."

When you brought this up, I thought the driver was you needing me to take the kids because you needed to do something. Was I mistaken about that?

I guess I was due for a good triggering. I gained back a good chunk of the weight I lost on the Infidelity Diet, and a nice depressive streak will help me lose a few pounds.

I already had a massage scheduled for tonight. Talk about good timing!
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Anger - 10/17/07 01:22 AM
I think SL is probably right here.

If you don't -want- to give up a whole weekend here.. and it won't benefit you more to have a whole weekend later.. well, then too bad for her.

This is one of the consequences of her decision to live her life without you.. you shouldn't feel the least bit guilty about making her live with that choice.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Anger - 10/17/07 02:28 AM
Dealing with my own "issues" around overnights and kid schedules, I won't attempt to advise. Those with more objectivity will be far more helpful.

My only suggestion is that you whatever action you take, you fully consider the potential effect on any long-term, court-ordered custody arrangement.

Set the precedent that YOU want, and STICK to it. Not that is appears it is going to work for me, but I've heard that if you have an "arrangement" that's worked and been in place, there's greater likelihood that the courts would continue that arrangement.

SCQ is trying to worm her way into an arrangement that SHE prefers. Don't let her.

Do you have your present arrangement formally outlined in writing anywhere?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/17/07 05:09 AM
Get this:

Quote
I already have the Wednesday before 11/3. So that will not work.

I don't have to explain why I wanted you to have the kids one of those weekends and why I wanted them for another one of those weekends. It is a trade of same time for same time.

Pick a Sunday so that I can have them for the whole weekend.

That email is pretty amazing to me. This is a textbook case of why a BS shouldn't be having any contact with a WS while in Plan B. I'm now triggered over first her attempt to manipulate me and then the callous nature of the last email. But it's classic thoughtless behavior by a wayward spouse, and I should have expected nothing less. eta: (Which one am I again, Fox, the pot or the kettle?)

Yes, Sis, our custody agreement has been approved by the courts. The SCQ isn't happy with the way it is working out. My lawyer seems to think that if we go to court over this (her wanting to change--or tweak--the agreement), I will lose, because her wanting to include some whole weekends is not unreasonable.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/17/07 06:08 AM
This is all so stupid. I really hate it. Fighting over stuff like this. Having to fight over stuff like this. Having to worry about what I say and how I say it (these emails could wind up in court) and how it might appear. And for what? So that she can be with a proven liar and cheat.

Why am I still doing this? I'm just about out of people in RL to talk to--all of my regulars (including my IC to some extent) just want to shake me and say "IT'S OVER. ACCEPT IT and GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE." and "You're so much better off without her."

It doesn't help that the depression is acting up again. I chatted briefly with my psychiatrist yesterday (same office as my IC), and learned that it's common for the body to adjust to the new med and require dosage adjustment. This would explain the twitchiness I've been feeling over the last week or so.

Looks like Ensure and Xanax for dinner tonight.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Anger - 10/17/07 10:01 AM
First, get your meds checked. Although that seems like a crap shoot most of the time....and keep in mind that meds won't address everything. You'll just have to make it through.

Second.....I SOO hear you on the "this is all so stupid" front. My words exactly as I sat crying in my co-worker's office yesterday.

Fighting over OUR children that we brought into this world together in love.

Fighting over where they will be and when and for how long.

Fighting over what's best for them....with someone who is perfectly willing to destroy the security of their intact family and all the advantages that brings to children.

It's not just stupid, it's absurd. And sickening (thus the Ensure and Xanax dinner).

And I have the same issues IRL. And it's true. We ARE better off without the-person-that-is-now. Do not forget that.

At the same time, we recognize that our CHILDREN are NOT better off...even with the-person-who-is-now. THEY still deserve to security and advantages of an intact family.

And we crave that for them. We want so desperately to be able to give them that gift....and cannot believe that their other parent has no interest in giving them that most precious of all gifts, too.

Therein lies the rub.

Arrrgh....TJing again.

We are on the exact same place in the roller coaster again. I am so sick of this ride.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Anger - 10/17/07 11:16 AM
Oh boy.. do I feel that pain acutely.

Especially in the midst of my own temporary custody battle.. and that's just to decide what happens while we work on getting unmarried.. which I don't want to do in the first place!

Yes.. it's frustrating, it's absurd, and it's -wrong-. But it is what IS.. not what SHOULD BE.

I was actually fairly peaceful today before reading this post, and it reminded me why I am really so distraught over the whole thing. It doesn't make sense to any rational human being. It won't, and you already know that.

Sometimes we aren't dealt the hand we want, but God wants us to play it out until the end. Win or lose, we've got the hand we have for a reason. We simply have to make the best of it.


As far as the kids go, I look at it this way. Consistency is key for -anything- having to do with the children. If the court sees you waffling it will look far worse on you than if you are focused on providing as much stability, consistency, and spending as much time as you possibly can with your kids. Now in and of itself the 'full weekends' are probably going to be seen as pretty trivial to the court. If she wants to litigate for full weekends, let her. If she gets them, fine.. but she's going to have to pay for it.. but the court is probably going to look at it this way: Am I going to see this woman in here every time she wants to have an extra day here and there with the kids? Am I going to have to -constantly- change this agreement that she now cannot agree to?

I find it just as likely that a good judge will tell her: This is what you agreed to, this is what the court ordered. This is how it is.

See Guy Smiley.. SHE is resisting what IS in favor of what she thinks SHOULD BE.. now... we all know where that leads.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Anger - 10/17/07 01:23 PM
I hear ya!!

Quote
Why am I still doing this? I'm just about out of people in RL to talk to--all of my regulars (including my IC to some extent) just want to shake me and say "IT'S OVER. ACCEPT IT and GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE." and "You're so much better off without her."


Oh yea,,,,am in the same place on this, too! That's why it's so great to have MB all all here.

Remember, you are doing this because you are living YOUR truth and defending what is Right. Doing what is Right is often the opposite of doing what is Easy! Hang in there and confirm in your mind that your motives are in alignment.

Check your meds, run around the block, punch the bag,,,,,but don't let this OVERWHELM you! You know how to work through this kind of phase. You can do it!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/17/07 04:50 PM
Quote
Arrrgh....TJing again.

No, not a TJ, Sis. Eloquently describing the thoughts that are in my head. Absurd is the right word.

Thanks, James and Bugs.

I still haven't decided how to respond.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Anger - 10/17/07 05:07 PM
Quote
(Which one am I again, Fox, the pot or the kettle?)


Six of one, 1/2 dozen of the other. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

FWIW, I'd stick with the plan as you have it now if it is working for you and the kids. If she wants more, let her litigate for it.

She doesn't have to like it.....this certainly isn't what YOU chose. She could have been with them 100% of the time.

Take it from someone who knows.....if you are kind and try to work with her on these things, she'll just push for more and expect you to give in. Then a precedent is set. If you did it once, why couldn't you do it again, and again, and again.

Negotating trades opens the door for more communication...and reasons for her to get to you.

Maybe just a simple "no thank you. The schedule we have is working"

But then again....I'm just the pot (or the kettle).

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/17/07 05:08 PM
Quote
I still haven't decided how to respond.

Just to clarify, I'm NOT considering giving in because she is demanding it. What I'm mulling is

Agree to the trade because

--I could use the weekend to travel and see my friends and family--I was already thinking about taking this trip.
--Being agreeable now makes her more likely to be agreeable in a final settlement (which is also in the air right now)
--Fighting over stuff like this is against my nature

Refuse the trade because

--She will use the time to take the kids on a trip with the OM
--She was manipulative and then demanding in how she approached it. It's offensive to me, and I don't want to give in to those kinds of tactics.
--Giving in on this feels like accepting and even condoning her adultery.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Anger - 10/17/07 05:18 PM
Quote
Being agreeable now makes her more likely to be agreeable in a final settlement


A REASONABLE person might think that way. Will she? I'm not sure I'd count on this.

Quote
--Fighting over stuff like this is against my nature


Sorry....can't relate to this one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Actually, I guess, I can relate. Fighting over stuff like this stuff with H is foreign to me and not something I like to do. Fighting over stuff like this against the ALIEN is in my nature. Protection of my children from outsiders, including WH, is a must.

"Fighting" about it shows the children that it is NOT ok and you do not agree with what goes on with OM. If Dad's agreeable, why wouldn't the kids learn that this is all ok?

Quote
Refuse the trade because

--She will use the time to take the kids on a trip with the OM
--She was manipulative and then demanding in how she approached it. It's offensive to me, and I don't want to give in to those kinds of tactics.
--Giving in on this feels like accepting and even condoning her adultery.


I'm on board with these. Why are these reasons not good enough?

Fox
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Anger - 10/17/07 05:31 PM
Quote
Being agreeable now makes her more likely to be agreeable in a final settlement (which is also in the air right now)


I wouldn't assume anything about the future here, guy. Don't slip back and allow assumptions to mar your thinking. If you give her the weekend, she will just keep pushing, because to her it is a TRADE, not a favor, and she will OWE you nothing.

I would never assume that you being nice is going to win you anything in the end. Go for what you want and stick to it, even if you want to go and see your friends, it may be in the childrens' best interest for you to stay home this time.

Why are you afraid of your anger? If you were saying anything hideous above, we would call you on it. Why would you expose your kids to OM any more than you have to? It's sound thinking, guy.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Anger - 10/17/07 06:17 PM
Priority 1: Protect the kids for as long as you can.

Priority 2: Protect yourself.

Priority 318,672: Be agreeable and therefore enable her affair.

Quote
Refuse the trade because

--She will use the time to take the kids on a trip with the OM [color:"red"]Yep[/color]
--She was manipulative and then demanding in how she approached it. It's offensive to me, and I don't want to give in to those kinds of tactics.OM [color:"red"]Yep[/color]

--Giving in on this feels like accepting and even condoning her adultery.OM [color:"red"]Yep[/color]
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Anger - 10/17/07 06:20 PM
SD,

You don't have to reply right away.

Just sit on it a while.

Let her wait for an answer.

~ Marsh
Posted By: chrisner Re: Anger - 10/17/07 06:24 PM
Quote
SD,

You don't have to reply right away.

Just sit on it a while.

Let her wait for an answer.

~ Marsh

[color:"red"]Yep[/color]
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Anger - 10/17/07 06:31 PM
Why not reply,

"Well since you put it that way, why don't we just leave the schedule as the court ruled. Maybe later we can get to a place where we can discuss the children with their best interest in mind."

Hmmm?
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Anger - 10/17/07 06:55 PM
I think PM has struck oil with this answer.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Anger - 10/17/07 07:03 PM
I like princessmeggy's thought on this, too. It makes sense. [color:"red"] YEP [/color]
Posted By: chrisner Re: Anger - 10/17/07 07:11 PM
[color:"red"]Yep Yep[/color]
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Anger - 10/17/07 07:17 PM
Hmmmm.....I HATE to be the one to disagree BUT....

should she really be asked a question "why don't we". She may have plenty of reasons why she doesn't want to do that. Why open the door for more discussion? Is it up for negotiation or does sdguy have the say?

He can still be kind...."since you put it that way, I'd like to keep the arrangement....etc"

Don't give her an opportunity to slip in those cracks and argue her point. Her point doesn't matter....yours and the children's points do matter.

Fox
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Anger - 10/17/07 07:39 PM
Wild, you make a great point. No sense in opening that door, even a crack.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/17/07 07:42 PM
Thanks, everyone, for all the input.

I had been thinking about responses like what you suggested, PM, but I was wondering whether it might be too much interaction (there are subtexts in it). At least, I think that's what I would have told the Kettle (I mean Fox) if I had seen her write it.

How about this?

"Since you put it that way, I think I choose to keep the court-appointed schedule this time and not trade Sundays."
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Anger - 10/17/07 07:46 PM
Don't "think", Pot, be firm.

"Since you put it that way, I choose to keep the court-appointed schedule this time and not trade Sundays"

Don't show weakness....she's a piranha and will smell blood.

Be kind...but be firm.

Kettle (Fox)
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/17/07 08:03 PM
Okay.

What does it say about these situations that we would be better off if the WS had died? I'm not sure that my kids wouldn't be better off if the SCQ had died.

I feel lousy. On the bright side, I can feel the pounds coming off.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Anger - 10/17/07 08:14 PM
I was wondering about the sub-text. That's just my way of getting my point across but probably lost on someone who won't get it anyway (SCQ). However, the reason I included it was that Judges always like the language "best interest of the children." And at this point, you have to write your emails expecting an attorney or judge to read them.

eta SCQ
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Anger - 10/17/07 08:19 PM
You're absolutely right about that, PM. Any correspondence you have now, sdguy, will probably show up in court. Key phrases are, well, key.

Those buzz words show that you "get it" in the language that the courts speak.

PM, I think sdguy was maybe adding his own subtext. I know I have a tendency to say more than what is absolutely necessary.

Fox
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Anger - 10/17/07 08:24 PM
Oh, to me the sub-text was... what the heck are you thinking SCQ... how could traveling for an entire weekend with OUR children and A STRANGE MAN instead of with THEIR DADDY be in their best interest?!?!??

But again, she wouldn't get it.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/17/07 11:22 PM
I agree that the second sentence has a good subtext that she won't get. The subtext she will read is from the 'since you put it that way' line, which she will take to read "Oh, yeah? Well, screw you."

I think I'll go with

"Since you put it that way, I choose to keep the court-appointed schedule this time and not trade Sundays. Maybe later we can get to a place where we can discuss the children with their best interest in mind."
Posted By: chrisner Re: Anger - 10/18/07 01:29 AM
or...in lieu of "Since you put it that way"

"After thoughtful consideration of your proposal, I choose to keep the court-appointed schedule this time and not trade Sundays. Maybe later we can get to a place where we can discuss the children with their best interest in mind."
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/18/07 01:46 AM
Yeah, that would have been more diplomatic, but it's too late. Here's her response:

Quote
Put it what way? And why would you think that any of this discussion hasn't been with their interest in mind?

Since we can not even find a resolution to swapping a Sunday for a Sunday. I will be requesting another session with family mediation and someone can decide our weekend schedule.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Anger - 10/18/07 01:49 AM
Looks like another Wayward Hussy Fit.

Bring it on Baby!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/18/07 05:22 AM
Quote
Looks like another Wayward Hussy Fit.


Yep.

I know that no response is required at this point, but this one is banging around my head, so I will type it out and see how it sounds.

'When I have requested extra time (which you have been generous with), I have always told you exactly what we would be doing. The kids tell me that you have been talking about going to Arizona to visit your parents. Had you put it to me that way--"I would like the kids for a weekend so that I can travel to Arizona and visit my parents" we wouldn't be arguing now. But that's not what you did.'

Any merit to sending that? I'm leaning towards it but welcome opinion.

These are tempting, but I know they have no merit (other than the truth):

Quote
And why would you think that any of this discussion hasn't been with their interest in mind?

Because you removed the kids from their home for purely selfish reasons?

Because you decided to break their family without ever trying to fix our marriage?

Remind me again how divorce is in their best interest?
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Anger - 10/18/07 11:09 AM
Crickets man... crickets.


I think you left some over at my place... thanks by the way, they've been keeping good company with me and the dog.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Anger - 10/18/07 11:43 AM
STOP for at least ONE full day before you do anything else. You are far too emotional right now to be sending anymore correspondence.

Come here and write you responses and WAIT for the THWACK!@# You are angry and that will not do well when responding to these types of subtle attacks. You sound like you are backing into a corner with that language, and she smells it, the retreat.

Read what you have written and recognize the emotion. Short, sweet and to the point is not something being used. Even if you are judging her, in your head, keep it there, and just be businesslike.

Wait on this one, guy. Let the crickets ROAR.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/18/07 05:26 PM
I guess I am partially thinking about the judge. Her line about "since we cannot even come to a resolution about swapping a Sunday for a Sunday" makes me seem like the unreasonable one. If you don't read in all the subtleties of the previous communications, I can see drawing that conclusion.

I tried to capture that I'm not unreasonable. Is it unreasonable for me to want to know what she intends to do with the extra time she's asking for? How about:

'When I have requested extra time (which you have been generous with), I have always told you exactly what we would be doing. The kids tell me that you have been talking about going to Arizona to visit your parents. Had you put it to me that way--"I would like the kids for a weekend so that I can travel to Arizona and visit my parents" it would have been a different discussion and reached a happy resolution for everyone.'
Posted By: hopeandpray Re: Anger - 10/18/07 05:49 PM
Dear WW,

The facts will not support any unreasonableness on my part, of that I am sure. Extra time that I have had with the children has been spelled out as to activities, travel, etc. You unwillingness to reciprocate is telling. I will not give up my time with our children in order to support or enable you to expose them to your paramour. If this is not what you have planned then sharing the details of the request should not be a problem. As far as your threat to engage the mediator feel free to do so expeditiously.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Anger - 10/18/07 06:58 PM
How about NO response? You've said what you needed to say. Now let your silence speak.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Anger - 10/18/07 07:06 PM
Again.. Princessmeggy with the paydirt.

She's definitely a Texas grrl.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Anger - 10/19/07 10:35 AM
SD,

Definately Zip that Lip sweetie. NOTHING and I mean NOTHING you say at this point will accomplish anything but engage you in meaningless and painful interaction.

JMHO.

{{SD}}
Posted By: walkingthefield Re: Anger - 10/19/07 01:06 PM
Your silence will speak volumes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Do not be drawn into an email "sparring match" with her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Enjoy YOUR weekend with your children. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Stay Strong!
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Anger - 10/19/07 01:20 PM
I agree with the silence!

BTW, I have alittle thank you on my thread for you and others who have helped me along the way. The support has been wonderful!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You're doing great!
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Anger - 10/19/07 01:21 PM
crickets. you have already said too much.

Anything you say can be used and will be used against you in court.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/20/07 07:36 PM
Okay, I've stayed silent.

My lawyer called me yesterday and said that SCQ's lawyer had contacted him about the weekends. There is a status conference with the court on Monday, so I guess I'll hear more from my lawyer after that.

I've hit an anger phase. Gut-wrenching anger to go along with the depression (which feels mostly biochemical but hasn't let up yet). I want this to be over.
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: Anger - 10/21/07 01:58 AM
((Sdguy)))

It's okay to be angry. Right now I am so angry with WH.
Today was DD quarter fianls and she got to play alot in the second half. Her dad was not there. He was at DS hockey scrimmage. A scrimmage.... DS wouldn't of minded if he wasn't there.
Letting it go.... we are going to make it and be really happy someday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Still
Posted By: LilSis Re: Anger - 10/21/07 03:28 AM
Sorry, guy.

Go ahead and be angry. Just let yourself feel it. You will make it through.

Once the lawyers and the judges take a look, they will all do their jobs...none of which is in your control.

Breathe and trust.

((((sd))))
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/21/07 07:47 PM
More anger. Getting ready for the switch is bad enough, but once again I got the TM fifteen minutes before switch time: I'm out. Please bring the kids by at 12:30?

At least there was a question mark at the end. I told the kids, and DS7 said "I know where she is. I know exactly where she is. On her way back from Oceanside. Where else would she be?" Oceanside being where the POSOM lives. And he's right, I'm sure.

I feel more sad disgust than anger. Revulsion. The thought of her makes me queasy. When I'm in a more positive frame of mind, I try to turn it into pity, but it's not easy right now. So many things I want to say to her, none of them constructive.

Sigh.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Anger - 10/21/07 08:25 PM
Document, document, document.....

If you present custody agreement is very specific (which I assume it is), make sure you have documented every instance when they came home or left at a time other than specified in the agreement. Keep copies of any emails. If you can forward her TMs to your email, do so.

(Duh, I know, but just in case...)

I understand the disgust. No expectations, remember? Expect nothing good or sensible or considerate from her, and you will not be disappointed.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/21/07 11:24 PM
Thanks, Sis.

I thought about that, but I wonder how it would be used. "See how big a hassle this weekend transfer is? If we had *whole* weekends, we wouldn't have this problem."

A couple of months ago, I asked her not to come to the door anymore when she was dropping off the kids, and she replied that if we had whole weekends, there would be no weekend transfer and I would never have to see her smiling face. Or something like that.

I appreciate your coming around, Sis. You have your own stuff going on, but you're still able to look in on me. Good luck tomorrow.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Anger - 10/22/07 03:16 AM
Strange day here. I went for my beach walk after dropping the kids off. The day was great when I started--82 degrees under Santa Ana conditions. Pretty windy when I started but sunny and comfortable. When I turned around to come back, it had "clouded" up, and I could smell smoke. The wind picked up and was blowing sand.

There are wildfires all around southern California today. It's hazy inside my house, and it smells like smoke. A smoky taste in my mouth, too.

Hope everyone is okay.

I feel a little better but miss the kids. Evenings are better than mornings, which makes me think it's biochemical depression.
Posted By: Sadmo Re: Anger - 10/22/07 05:03 AM
SDGuy-

Is a D filed yet? I think that that would help you a lot, to move forward...

She does not seem to be coming out of her fog, she is in a 'happy' place.

Maybe it would be best to realize that you too need a happy place. You need to be able to move past this. I worry that you in plan B for so long is not actually constructive, and in the long run it is not making you look good.... That you are trying to 'force' her to have to deal with you under your terms. If she can't meet your conditions, then you will not deal with her. Maybe you need to learn to deal with her on your conditions, but in a different way? Like discuss kid stuff with her, but get a set Child Custody arrangement, proceed with a D, and move forward.

Would you even want her back at this point? COULD you even have her back at this point? Are you willing to TAKE her back at this point?

I am just saying that maybe if you knew what was going on, that maybe your Depression would not be so bad. This waiting game, especially since it does not seem likely it will change, does not seem good for you.

I once read a quote that said something to the effect of 'too many times we are focusing on a closed door, when an open door of happiness is right in front of us".
Think about it.

I hope that you feel better.

Sadmo
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Anger - 10/22/07 10:42 AM
{{{{SD}}}}

I can only quote you back to you this morning,

Quote
Remember to breathe


Thinking of and praying for you my friend!

You will be OK. Take care of you & get some assistance as needed.
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: Anger - 10/22/07 10:49 AM
((SdGuy)),

Just letting you know that another cyber friend is here for you. Bugs is right "breathe".

No words of wisom from me this morning.... just thinking good thought for you.

Still
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Anger - 10/22/07 12:08 PM
Just catching up.

If you like the current weekend arrangement, then fight for it. If not, well, handle it according to what you want, and what is best for the kids. NEVER give an inch, for you will lose a mile each time.

(((guy)))
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Anger - 10/22/07 09:18 PM
Let us know if you are OK. The news regarding the fires sounds devastating.
Posted By: sdguy038 Fire Season - 10/22/07 10:53 PM
Thanks for checking. It's very bad. They're talking about this being worse than the Cedar fires 4 years ago, and those were devastating. Today we have hot, dry, and high winds blowing the flames west. Fires all over the county. Things will likely remain bad until the winds shift and start blowing off the ocean again, which won't be until Wednesday or so, I gather.

Early this morning they ordered evacuation of a huge swath of northern San Diego county. I am inside the evacuation zone (barely) but am still in my house. I live within a couple of miles of the coast, and the fires are doing the worst damage well to the east. I packed the car and only have a couple more loads of stuff to throw in (so I can be out of here within 3 minutes). Several of my neighbors also have not evacuated.

I don't have the kids today. This morning, they evacuated to the "safety" of POSOM's place in Oceanside. Just me and the kitten.

One death so far, but it sounds like lots and lots of houses are burning.

Thanks, also, to you guys who offered your thoughts (Sadmo, Bugs, Still, SL)--I've been a little distracted with the fires. Sadmo, our divorce is well underway. There was to be a status conference today (it's been put off and rescheduled for something like 6 months now), but the courts are closed.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Fire Season - 10/22/07 11:24 PM
Anger and fire....2 things that go together in my mind...

God is literally at work here... How frustrated your wife must be at the delay! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Fire Season - 10/22/07 11:27 PM
Well, it's good to know that you and the kids are okay. Please check in as you can.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Fire Season - 10/23/07 01:25 AM
Hi SD.

I got home from Malibu this afternoon. My head coach and I attended a coaches clinic with the head men's coach at Pepperdine on Saturday. What great timing that was. We stayed at a hotel Saturday night about 9-miles up Malibu Canyon Road. We were going back Sunday to attend Pepperdine practices but Sunday morning around 5:AM the fire started.

The field house we had the clinic in Saturday was filled with evacuated students early Sunday morning. Embers were falling like meteors on the houses and businesses on the beach side of the Pacific Coast Highway.

I watched a fireman on TV jumping from roof to roof of the close together buildings trying to save the buildings around a central located building and put it out at the same time. It was insanly brave. If not for him alone several businesses and homes would nave been lost on Malibu beach.

We could not get a flight back to Denver so we sat around all day in the smoke. There was a fire North, South (Malibu) and West of us. By 5:00 PM Sunday the sun was blocked by smoke.

Stay safe. This was really something. The winds were just howling last night. They say the Santa Ana event will run until Wednesday.

I am thinking of you Amigo.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 10/23/07 01:53 AM
Thanks, Chris.

I'm still hanging out, but I'll probably have to leave later. Not sure I want to sleep in the house with the fires still out of control. Most of my neighbors are already gone, but the grocery store around the corner is still open.

Weird. And surreal that my kids aren't with me.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Fire Season - 10/23/07 02:02 AM
SD,

DD19 read your posts and sends her love. She is worried. Be smart and stay safe.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 10/23/07 02:11 AM
Thanks, guys. Much appreciated.

I'm not going to do anything stupid. I'd prefer not to evacuate with the cat unless I have to, and it really hasn't been necessary yet. We'll see.
Posted By: Sadmo Re: Fire Season - 10/23/07 03:20 AM
SD-
I hope that you are doing ok!!!! I did not know that you were in the midst of all of that...
If you need to evacuate with the cat, DO IT!!!

I will pray for you and your kids tonight.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 10/23/07 04:11 AM
Okay...I've evacuated. I'm at work, which is fairly close to my house but outside the evacuation zone. It's open for evacuees--they gave me a towel and a travel kit. Offered me a sleeping bag, etc. So I'll be camped out in my office with the cat. It's a bit of an adventure (especially for the cat).
Posted By: believer Re: Fire Season - 10/23/07 04:27 AM
Hey SD guy! I didn't know you lived near the fires. I'm in Seattle right now watching after dad. But you are welcome to head on up to Oceanside. You can stay with my roommate in my home, or with my sons. Cats welcome.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 10/23/07 05:36 AM
Thanks, Believer!

I live in the Del Mar Highlands area, which they got more serious about evacuating at the end of the day. I don't think my house is in much danger, but after the deaths during the Cedar fires, they evacuate first, ask questions later.

The cat and I are pretty comfortable here at work, but if they kick me out of here, I'll keep your offer in mind!

ETA--haven't heard about any fire threat to Oceanside.
Posted By: believer Re: Fire Season - 10/23/07 05:52 AM
Better safe than sorry. Besides the Cedar fires, there was a fire a couple of years ago that came all the way to La Costa - like a mile from the ocean. One man waited too long to evacuate and was killed by the fire, right in front of his home while trying to escape.

Let me know if you need anything. Hopefully it will miss your home. But even if you want to drop off the cat - that will be fine. We are cat lovers.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Fire Season - 10/23/07 10:18 AM
Just catching up. I saw it all on the news last night and it was unbelievable. I am relieved to hear that you evacuated.

Please do not put yourself in any danger. Your kids need you.

(((((sd)))))
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: Fire Season - 10/23/07 10:51 AM
Stay safe. Sending good thoughts and prayers your way.

Still
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Fire Season - 10/23/07 11:40 AM
Hey Guy... man, I'm glad I came over to read your thread.

Probably not much comfort to you right now but it sounds like your living daily life feels a lot like what I've been dealing with internally lately.

My prayers are with you bro.. the cat, the kids, and even SCQ.. believe me, I know and understand the anger from a few days ago... didn't really realize after your post on my thread just how closely you understood it too.

Hard with kids involved... hard man. But you and I.. we get to be the better people.. we're going to be the ones our kids look back on in their 20's and go.. you know what.. I never really realized just how much I want to be like him.

You're a great dad man.. stay safe from the fires.. we've been burnt enough. God will provide.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Fire Season - 10/23/07 11:43 AM
SD,

Oh, I am SO relieved you are OK! I thought about you all day yesterday and all night last night.

You & kitty stay safe now!
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Fire Season - 10/23/07 05:18 PM
Glad to hear you are safe, Guy Smiley. I've been watching the news and thinking of you. Hope you grabbed the shovel. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 10/23/07 05:40 PM
The shovel! I knew I forgot something.

Hi, All. Thanks for all the great thoughts.

I talked with a neighbor today who told me that the police came by the street last night at midnight telling people to get out, so I'm just as happy that I went ahead and left. We're pretty comfortable in my office. Maybe I'll even do some work. The site (we have several buildings) is officially closed, like most of the county, but there are a handful of evacuees hanging out.

I still don't think the fires are near my house, but it's hard to figure out exactly where they are. I'm watching a streaming news cast on the web.

I'm going to need a cat-sized treadmill, though.
Posted By: SIHW Re: Fire Season - 10/23/07 06:40 PM
Quote
I'm going to need a cat-sized treadmill, though.

Haha...love those adventurous kittens...I miss mine. I am glad you are guys are doing well and safe. Well if ya need to get away let me know we got some room up north in monterey. BTW how's the smoke down there a friend of mine is insistent on goint to Knotts-scarey farms this weekend and I am kind of like...ehhhhh....I don't think it's wise.
Posted By: believer Re: Fire Season - 10/23/07 08:29 PM
Glad things are well. I got more information from the blogs on the signonsandiego and nctimes sites than anywhere. Residents are giving very detailed information.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 10/24/07 12:30 AM
Thanks for the tip, Believer.

They okayed returns to the Del Mar Heights area, so I went ahead and came home. Several neighbors have done the same. It's weird outside--the winds have shifted enough that it doesn't really smell like smoke outside (that or I'm desensitized). No wind to speak of.

300,000 acres burned (as much as the Cedar fire 4 years ago, except these aren't contained). 1300 homes destroyed. Wow.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Fire Season - 10/24/07 10:08 AM
You must be so relieved to be home. From what I see and hear, it is just horrific. Yesterday on NPR they referred a number of times to Del Mar specifically. I have no idea how big that area is, but of course it was troubling to hear your community mentioned.

Please keep us posted?

And be sure to take extra good care of yourself. I wonder if you will experience some delayed reaction to all of this. Even if you didn't experience any "loss," the trauma all around you and the stress of the situation is bound to have an impact....particularly since you are vulnerable. Just be sure to pay attention to what you are feeling.

Take care, and I'm keeping you and everyone out there in my prayers.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Fire Season - 10/24/07 11:05 AM
Glad to hear you're home Guy.. been thinking about you a lot as they show the pictures and such on the news.

Course the local radio shows here seem to be mostly concerned with where the Chargers-Texans game is going to be played. Sad really our society prioritizes these things over peoples lives being destroyed.

I'm relieved though to hear that things are ok with you. I'll keep you in my thoughts and prayers man. Keep the chin up.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 10/25/07 06:44 AM
Thanks, guys. I'm fine. Today was completely peaceful--it was very hot (it got up to 90 at my house, which it does maybe twice a year), the winds were mostly calm, and it still didn't smell too much like smoke. Without TV coverage, it wouldn't be obvious that the fires are still raging elsewhere

My neighbors started rolling in mid-morning. The SCQ returned the kids at noon, and we had a low-impact day. Later, we went over to a neighborhood gathering--beer, wine, pizza, games for the kids, baseball--really good time. Blowing off some of the steam that seemed to have built up for people.

Quote
I wonder if you will experience some delayed reaction to all of this.

Maybe you're right, Sis. I don't know. I'll keep an eye on it. It doesn't feel like any of this has stressed me, but I haven't run into anyone yet who has lost everything. When I thought about it, it was easy to apply the wildfire to my own situation. Just as devastating, and just as easy for me to control (I imagine myself standing in front of my house with a garden hose against heat so intense it melted alloy wheels into little streams of metal that solidified again after the fire moved on). I'm feeling pretty good at the moment. I think I'll try to make sweet rolls for the firefighters at the station around the corner tomorrow.

My FIL called me today to check on us. I was somewhat cool to him on the phone, but now I kind of feel bad about it. A whole bunch of my anger toward my ILs dissolved (they didn't deserve as much anger as I was directing at them, plus I suck at staying mad at people). It didn't sound like he had talked with the SCQ. The kids probably haven't talked to those grandparents in months. Now I'm thinking of having the kids call them tomorrow.

And now my MIL included me in one of those chain email things (but not the SCQ).
Posted By: LilSis Re: Fire Season - 10/25/07 10:33 AM
I'm so glad to hear that things feel pretty normal. I'm probably speaking from my own way of dealing with things...I would be really affected by it. I had a really hard time after 9/11, and I knew no one, and I'm here in the Midwest, far away from where it all happened. (I always attributed my reaction to the fact that it was only three months after my dad died, though...)

I love your analogy about the garden hose.

Anyway, that's so nice to hear that your ILs are reaching out. Are you saying that SCQ has distanced herself from them?

It's a mixed blessing, I guess. If they are "on the outs" with SCQ, it would be easy to reach out to them and get drawn into that dynamic....re-engaging with a piece of SCQ instead of working on letting go. You'd have someone to commiserate with...someone else who has been devastated by her actions...someone who understands. It could be very comforting, as long as you are cautious.

And they are human beings, too, after all, wounded people who love and miss their grandchildren, I'm sure.

On the other hand, if they were still fully a part of SCQ's life (like my ILs), it is easy to sort of cut them off, and there's no opportunity to try to connect to XH through them. Another huge loss, to be sure, but I need to take care of myself. In my case, ILs excuse and rationalize and deny XH's behavior...and because I have trusted them, I tend to "believe" it...which places so much more responsibility and blame for what happened on me. Much, much more than I deserve. And it adds to the hurt.

I'm thinking aloud and processing my own "stuff," and don't know if this makes sense.

Just be careful.

(Listen to me...I keep cautioning you. I don't mean to be so patronizing. Much of it is me putting myself in your shoes, and anticipating how I would react, so please don't take it personally!)
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Fire Season - 10/25/07 12:44 PM
GuySmiley,

Glad things are back to 'normal' so to speak.

I am with Sis on keeping in touch with the ILs. It's a good thing, especially for the kiddos, but be cautious that it doesn't keep you tied to what SCQ is doing too much. From the sound of it, that's not going to be much of an issue right now.

It's strange isn't it, to get emails with your name but not her's,,,,, and then even more strange when you get one that also includes her. That happened to me yesterday & it felt weird for some reason?

Have a great day & I'll keep those prayers going for no Wind!
Posted By: chrisner Re: Fire Season - 10/25/07 02:32 PM
Hey Amigo,

It looks like the D-Line has made a stop here so I guess I will stretch my legs a bit. (Waving Hi to Sis and Bugs)

Quite a visual: SD with a pin-hole leaking garden hose trickling at half pressure, fighting a raging wildfire in the teeth of a 50 mph Santa Ana wind with a kitten under his arm. It would make a great, albiet short, live feed for the Southern Cali masses.

Glad your home. Glad I'm home. DD was real goofy when I first got back. I would catch her looking at me and then she would smile and say "I love you Daddy". She would hug me every time I walked by. Finally I asked her if she broke something or dented her car while I was gone. Nope, she was just glad I was back.

I think the coverage of the fires here while I was gone gave her the impression that the last charred and maimed survivors were being driven headlong into the Pacific. She was real worried. First about me then about you.

I have found these past few months that even relatively big events/problems in my life inflict far less stress than before D-Day. I think some people think I am just oblivious to everything. Maybe they are right, but nothing seems as stressful or daunting as before.

Just another Trial by Fire.

You sound pretty good Amigo. Stay safe and inspect that garden hose.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 10/25/07 10:01 PM
Just found out one of my best friends/previous co-workers lost her house in the fires. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Fire Season - 10/26/07 12:07 PM
Oh, Guy, I'm sorry to hear that.

How are YOU today? Maybe helping your friend, in some way, will help you. I dunno, just thinking out loud.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 10/29/07 06:56 PM
I've been feeling okay if not good. I told my friend that if she needs someone to talk to who has been through a life-altering trauma over which they have no control, I am here for her. She sounded a bit shell-shocked when I talked with her. I went through DS7's clothes and have a pretty nice collection of extras for her kids.

Quote
I have found these past few months that even relatively big events/problems in my life inflict far less stress than before D-Day. I think some people think I am just oblivious to everything. Maybe they are right, but nothing seems as stressful or daunting as before.

I can totally echo this. These fires just didn't stress me very much. I look at my neighbors--the SAHM's who had to evacuate with their kids, and how stressed they were, and can't really relate. I was sitting around with some of them Friday night giving them the update on me and my situation and commented that I think I'm desensitized to trauma and how with the fires, my response was basically "Is this the best you've got?"

I got the kids back yesterday and asked them whether they wanted to call their other grandparents, and DS7 said yes. I gathered from his comments that FIL's birthday was earlier this month, and DS7 knew that his call was 19 days late. So DS7 called them last night while I hovered around the speakerphone. FIL did a nice job of talking with DS7, and MIL did her best. I feel like a good parent.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Fire Season - 10/29/07 07:25 PM
Heh.. funny how something like this changes your outlook on things.

I've always been a pretty laid back guy myself, and now when things seem like they're going to pot here at work and everyone is running around like the sky is falling, I'm just calm through the storm. Heck.. I'm going through worse than this right now.

You're a survivor Guy Smiley.. just like the rest of us BS's with SCQ's and IQ's to deal with.. honestly, I believe that our small journey through ****** and our perseverance to hold true to ourselves and to our faith in love, God, and marraige.. we'll find ourselves rewarded in the end, either with a better life here.. or a better life once this one has come to conclusion.

Glad to hear things are good with you, and the kids are back home safe.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 10/31/07 03:20 AM
DS7 called and left messages on both my cell and house phone. They are carving pumpkins over at the SCQ's place and he wanted to see how I was doing. I called back and told him that I am okay, but that I am sad they are not here for pumpkin carving and won't be for Halloween. He said he was, too.

I went back and forth on whether to buy and carve my own pumpkin but wound up getting one. Probably I'll carve it tomorrow.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Fire Season - 10/31/07 12:54 PM
GuySmiley,

Definately carve yourself a pumpkin! Everyone needs an empty shell with the guts scooped out and a flickering light inside,,,,,OOPS, we already have that in our WS's don't we??

Ok, maybe that wasn't really very funny - Sorry!

It's hard at times like this, when we are forced to change the 'traditions' of special moments with our family, I know. DD brought that up to my Sis last night when she took her out Trick or Treating (we get 2 nights of it where I live).

I'm sorry you won't have your kiddos with you tonight. Did you make up special bags of things from you for them? Do something new and special this year for yourself and them as a new tradition.

It was too sweet of DS7 to be thinking of you. You have some GREAT kids - - because you are a GREAT dad!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 10/31/07 05:43 PM
Quote
Everyone needs an empty shell with the guts scooped out and a flickering light inside,,,,,OOPS, we already have that in our WS's don't we??

LOL. At first I thought you were talking about me, but it's funny either way.

Great idea on making up special bags for them. Thanks!
Posted By: chrisner Re: Fire Season - 10/31/07 05:48 PM
Quote
Everyone needs an empty shell with the guts scooped out and a flickering light inside,,,,,OOPS, we already have that in our WS's don't we??


"Exxxxxxxcellent" - Monty Burns

One of the best and most accurate descriptions of a Wayward ever!

Careful with the flickering candle, it's still fire season.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 10/31/07 06:43 PM
Triggered again. My lawyer received a letter from her lawyer about changing the weekends. Says if they don't hear from us within a couple of weeks that they'll file a motion with the court to revisit it. I was already feeling twitchy this morning (maybe because of my son's calls last night), and this just adds to it. It's all buzzing around in my head again.

Sigh.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Fire Season - 10/31/07 07:11 PM
Awww...sorry sd. Sometimes it feels like it never ends, doesn't it?

What does your lawyer say?

My attorney was always really honest with me...he's been doing divorces for 34 years, so he had a pretty good idea about which way things would go. Some things were worth fighting for, and other things were not. Unwinnable things are not worth fighting for....no matter how unfair they are.

Is there another perspective that you can take on this that makes it more palatable? For instance, what's the WORST that can happen? Is it the end of the world for the kids? Is there anything that YOU can do to make it less worse?

If I remember correctly, your biggest concern is that the kids will be free to go off on weekends with SCQ and POSOM. That would be a huge issue for me as well, and one I will likely face soon.

Just do what you have to do--so that even if you lose this battle, you can put your head down at night and know that you did everything you could do.

Here's my question...say you don't respond, and they file a motion. How long does that take to go through all the hoops of bureaucracy? If you have to get a court date, etc., it could take a loooong time. ??

How are your meds? You were saying the other day that you were feeling like something biochemical was going on. Did that ever abate?

This is a rollercoaster. Yuck.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 10/31/07 07:48 PM
Thanks, Sis.

I think that my lawyer thinks that what she's asking for is reasonable and not worth going to court over. The transfer is Sunday at noon, so neither of us has a whole weekend (either with or without the kids) unless we arrange it with the other one, and while it hasn't been a problem for me to arrange things with her, she has not done the same (presumably because she only wants to take the kids on adulterous activities, and she knows I won't approve).

Obviously, this schedule can't go on forever, but the way it's set up right now, if I give up my Sunday so that she can have a whole weekend, it's five days in a row where I don't see my kids. My daughter is 4. I think that's too long, and my psychiatrist agreed with me.

It's just all so draining. So tempting to just get the divorce over with and/or spell out all of my concerns to the SCQ. Why am I still doing this? People say "you'll know when you're done," but will I know when I should be done? There's the noble/admirable aspect to what we're doing, but when does it become stupid? Did I already pass that point? Maybe I should call Jennifer again.

Anyway, I think I'll tell my lawyer to offer up one full weekend every other month starting in February of next year. If they don't like it, we can go to court.

The biochemistry. . . I'm not sure. It feels different than it did before. I think it's getting better. Now I feel kind of slow and thick-headed most of the time, but I think my sleep has been messed up, too. Today I feel broken, but I'll feel better as the day goes along. And I think I got some stuff out, which always helps.

How are you doing, Sis? I was about to dig your thread out for you.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Fire Season - 10/31/07 09:10 PM
SD,

So sorry about the trigger. I understand about having to go too long without those little ones with us!

If I were you (which obviously I am not), but if it were ME, and it was something I didn't want, then I'd make her absolutely WORK for it. I'd force her to file the motion or whatever she has to do. IF it is that important to me.

Her A is likely telling her the same thing,,,,,it's not worth going to court over and therefore, they expect your A to tell you the same so that you just agree.

It's your call,,,,

Hey, get that Pumpkin Scoop out and clear your head! he he!

Seriously, I hope you are feeling a bit better!

{{SD}}
Posted By: LilSis Re: Fire Season - 11/01/07 12:21 AM
I had forgotten about the long stretch of days apart. That is, I'm sure, a non-negotiable. Weekend, schmeekends...just make sure that you are a far more regular presence in their lives than once every five days.

More later on the resignation thing...kids just arrived...
Posted By: LilSis Re: Fire Season - 11/01/07 01:16 AM
Quote
It's just all so draining. So tempting to just get the divorce over with and/or spell out all of my concerns to the SCQ. Why am I still doing this? People say "you'll know when you're done," but will I know when I should be done? There's the noble/admirable aspect to what we're doing, but when does it become stupid? Did I already pass that point?
My feeling is that "knowing you're done" isn't like a light switch flipping. It's more the dimmer bulb phenomenon. In time (soon?), we will look back and think...wait a minute...I truly do not WANT that person in my life anymore. S/he has become so unrecognizable, and has been so awful to me and my children that even if I am able to forgive, I just don't want to live with that baggage.

I KNOW that I gave everything I had to try to save my marriage. I KNOW this. I can't be ashamed. I give WH every opportunity. I am okay with myself. My integrity is intact. This is the noble/admirable thing.

You can say the same.

Keep in mind that if you are thinking of being dark as just being noble/admirable, you are missing the fact that it is protecting you, too. You don't need to have contact with SCQ...all she does is make you feel like [censored], makes you angry, makes you hurt.

So if it's important that you are not just doing this to be noble, think of it as taking care of yourself.

I think you know you are done when you come to a place where the balance shifts. It's not all or nothing. It's like a teeter totter, and it's at the tipping point, and can wobble either way for a while. Eventually it will tip fully toward the place of DONE.

IMO.

Anyway, the one full weekend every other month starting in February of next year sounds fair.

About the biochemistry thing...I am much more tuned in to the times I might be vulnerable, and sort of prep myself for them. Like certain times of the month, or when the boys are gone, or I have a couple of really long days in a row.

When I get stressed out, I'm vulnerable to the negativity...both from within and without.

Gotta go make sure all the hair paint came off in the shower...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/01/07 01:33 AM
Thanks, Sis. I'll process this later. Just got home, did a really quick pumpkin carving (but it still looks pretty good), and got the candy ready.

I think if my kids come trick-or-treating to our door I'm going to cry.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/01/07 03:49 AM
Okay, so I'm cool. I got compliments on my pumpkin-carving job, went down and hung out with neighbors, and had a pretty good evening.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Fire Season - 11/01/07 12:01 PM
(((guy)))

You're in a tight spot! I think that your suggestion for one weekend every other month is a good one. Be firm on what you want. If you can afford it, don't give in on what you cannot agree with, fight it, go to court.

Don't project into the future and think on what may or may not happen, just think on what is best for your situation and your children RIGHT NOW--TODAY, and act on that.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/02/07 12:14 AM
I think you nailed it with your post, Sis, on the Done-ness thing. I thought I might have a yeah-buttal on it, but I really don't.

Sometimes it feels like it would be easier to be done. I could say what I want to say without thinking about whether it is LB'ing, for one thing.

But I'm just not done. I think again about how stupid this is--the split time custody. Sometimes I think maybe it's a curse that I know what I do about affairs--that at best the SCQ and the POSOM will have a dysfunctional relationship and that it will very likely completely implode at some point. What's best for my kids is if I'm still around. If I didn't know what I know, I could/would have walked out ages ago.

Just whining. Going to go get my kids and enjoy them. I get the whole weekend. (She asked me if I would still keep them for the weekend and that she would still like a whole weekend if I would reconsider the swap. I said yes, I'd keep them and that I'd think about the swap.)
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Fire Season - 11/02/07 04:10 PM
Hey, you shovel packin', Batmobile drivin', cape wearin', fire escapin', pumpkin carvin', kid lovin'.......damn, that's all I got. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Quote
the Done-ness thing. I thought I might have a yeah-buttal on it, but I really don't.


The Done-ness things reminds me of the energy saving lightbulbs. Flip the switch...and wait...and wait... and it flickers and stutters and gradually gets to full brightness. It's a lightbulb....just not an instant one.

What's a "yeah-buttal"? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My first reaction to your suggestion of a full weekend every other month was NO, NO, NO! DON'T GIVE IN!

My initial thought was that if you offer it up then you are agreeing that spending a whole weekend with POSOM and SCQ is okay. And if it can be done every other month, why can't it be done every month?

Just a thought....I'll admit to being a bit hypersensitive about setting precedents.

Also...about your lawyer not thinking it is worth going to court over: do what YOU think is right for you and your children. Lawyers are paid no matter what the end result is, you and your children have to live with the decision. Consider their advice, of course, but don't discount your own wants/needs.

You sound good, I'm glad to hear it.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/02/07 08:34 PM
Quote
What's a "yeah-buttal"?

So you did guess who I thought of as I typed that. Thanks for stopping by, Fox.

The infamous status conference (originally scheduled for something like March and pushed back 5 or 6 times--most recently because of the fires) is now on Monday. My lawyer asked me for my thoughts on rescheduling weekends, since he will likely have sidebar conversation with the SCQ's lawyer, and reminded me that whatever decisions are made will be based on the best interests of the children. Here's what I sent him:

Quote
1 Each of us, our mediator, and the court approved our current agreement

2 I like the current schedule, and the kids do, too. The kids like being able to spend some weekend time with each parent every weekend.

3 If the schedule is changed such that I give up my Sunday so that the SCQ can have complete weekends, it means I have to go five days without seeing my children. DD is 4 years old. I believe that five days is too long a period of time for small children to go without seeing a parent, and mental health professionals have agreed with me.

4 The current schedule is actually more convenient—having some time without the kids each weekend allows me to get mundane chores accomplished without having to drag the kids along (shopping, for example) so that I can make the time be about them on the other day.

5 We have inherent flexibility. I have indicated to the SCQ that I will take the kids any time she needs a full weekend without them (e.g., I am taking them for her this weekend). Whenever I have asked the SCQ to give me additional time with the kids (e.g., a full weekend), I have always given her a description of the activities we would be doing. The one time the SCQ specifically asked me for additional time, I granted her request.

It is because of these reasons that I am opposed to changing the schedule. Because a schedule change seems important to the SCQ, I would concede to one full weekend every other month starting March of 2008, and the schedule be adjusted such that I don’t have to go five days without seeing the kids (perhaps the SCQ gets the Thursday before my full weekend, and I get the Monday after hers).
Posted By: chrisner Re: Fire Season - 11/02/07 10:14 PM
Sounds well thought out.

Good luck Monday. Keep us posted.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/02/07 10:27 PM
Thanks. I don't have to show up. It's just the lawyers and the judge.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Fire Season - 11/02/07 10:31 PM
Well that's even better!

Personally, I never want to see the Jefferson County Court House again.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Fire Season - 11/03/07 01:39 AM
SD,

I've followed your thread for a long time now, and I just have to say that I admire your patience. I'm not sure how you manage to hang in there the way that you do, but you are an inspiration for sure.

They say that men hang in there longer than women. Not sure why that is though.


Anyway, I'm cheering for you....
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/05/07 06:15 PM
Thanks, CL. I think that I am a glutton for punishment.

Angry this morning, because I'm dealing with trying to schedule the Christmas holiday. I asked her for an exchange on the 25th so that I can travel with the kids on the 26th. She replied with

Quote
How about you don't travel unil at least the 27th and we exchange on the 26th

I want to say: "That's fine. Thanks to your adultery, I'm going to miss both Christmas Eve and Christmas morning with my children for the second straight year. I might as well miss the whole day."

or

"I guess your selfish behavior has pretty well destroyed any hope the children had at having healthy traditions, so go ahead and keep them."

Angry.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Fire Season - 11/05/07 11:44 PM
That would make me angry, too. She's probably just pi$$ed about the most recent back and forth and is enjoying pushing your buttons. She'll get YOU for not caving on the weekend thing....

Just a little tit for tat.

What does your agreement specify? The standard around here is one gets Christmas Eve and the other gets Christmas Day.

It does not seem AT ALL fair that she gets them for BOTH days...???

Certainly that should not be the case unless it is something you BOTH agree to.

What does your attorney say?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/05/07 11:58 PM
The agreement is unhelpful. I don't remember any discussion around that and think we went with whatever sounded standard when we met with the mediator. It says 'children to be with the SCQ during the first half of week between Christmas and New Years and SDGuy the second half of the week on odd-numbered years. Reverse in even-numbered years. It doesn't specify anything about Christmas Eve.

I think we thought we were going to be reasonable with one another. And she probably is being reasonable, except that she's keeping the father of her children from being with them on Christmas Eve and Christmas morning. And I'm angry about that. And I want to say it to her.

It's the whole acceptance thing again. It shouldn't be this way.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/06/07 12:00 AM
"If we exchange on the 26th, I won't see them at all on Christmas Day. In fact, I'll miss Christmas Eve and Christmas morning with my children for the second year in a row, but hey, I guess that's in their best interests, right?"
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/06/07 12:01 AM
Somebody 2x4 me.
Posted By: believer Re: Fire Season - 11/06/07 12:13 AM
I don't blame you for being angry. Your wife is being selfish and unreasonable.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Fire Season - 11/06/07 12:31 AM
WHACK

WHACK

WHACK

Can you ask your attorney about it? Seriously...that just doesn't seem right...

If your agreement is as you stated, then HER time shouldn't start until Christmas, so Christmas Eve isn't part of that equation. (This doesn't help with your travel issue, I realize)
Posted By: LilSis Re: Fire Season - 11/06/07 12:34 AM
Wait...so are you saying that you actually emailed that remark? If so:

THWACK
THWACK

Feel better?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/06/07 12:54 AM
No, I didn't email that. But I'm starting to forget why I shouldn't.

It's what the agreement states, so Christmas Eve reverts to whatever the other schedule was, which means it's her day. But Sunday the 23rd is my day. So if we go by the agreement, I have to figure it messes up *her* schedule, too.

I'm sure she would much rather leave on the 22nd for wherever it is she's going. (Where is she going, anyway? Is it to her parents'? But she doesn't like her parents enough to want to stay through the 26th. Does she have special holiday plans with the POSOM?) Unlikely, but it's all kind of floating around in my head.

There's no way around netogiating this with her. Fortunately, it's not dominating my consciousness. I'm able to put it away when I need to.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Fire Season - 11/06/07 03:09 AM
SD,

I was just updating my "kid calendar" today with all of the holiday schedules based on my 'agreement'. Sounds like we have a similar setup with having gone with the 'standard' agreement.

I get DD Christmas eve and then until Christmas day at 10am. She's then gone from me until the 31st. I don't know how I am going to handle being without her all of that time.

Bottom line is that being away from our kids at all just Sucks.
Posted By: Sadmo Re: Fire Season - 11/06/07 05:04 AM
Sd and Bugs-
I hear you guys. It is SO HARD to be away from your kids for any length of time.

What happens to the WS that all of a sudden makes them want to mess with everything? I just do not get it.

SD- if I were you, I would try to write her a nice note, saying that since you did not get them last Christmas, you would like them this Christmas Eve, or something. Maybe she will relent a little...

I have my own EX telling me that he is going to take the kids all of the holidays, and I am having to battle him now. So I understand. It is just such a mess. Sigh.

I hope that it all works out with you.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Fire Season - 11/06/07 12:27 PM
Hopefully a good night's sleep has helped diffuse the anger.

I'm really sorry that you are having to deal with this...and Bugs and Sadmo, too. Insult on top of injury. Do they EVER EVER EVER think of anyone other than themselves??

It just makes me sad.

Probably a very short, simple email requesting a change. Very business-like. Don't let her know that she got to you.

"Since our agreement is unclear regarding Christmas Eve and Christmas Day and the children should spend time with each of us on those days, I propose the following: blah blah. Please let me know ASAP if this is acceptable to you."

No discussion of the whys or wherefores or recriminations, just the facts. The blah blah blah should be something reasonable and as much in line with the agreement as possible.

???

Just a suggestion. I don't think you should go to her hat in hand, neither should you be snippy.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Fire Season - 11/06/07 04:56 PM
Fire Season INDEED!

It's always something, isn't it guy. I think Sis has a good approach. I'm surprised that your lawyers did not have you 'schedule' the holidays. PWC and I had to do that in order to complete the legal separation. Maybe you should ponder moving toward scheduling the holidays through the lawyers for next year, so that this can be avoided. It get's a little mucky, dealing with this; it was hard for me to concede ANY days, but we did it.

Is this your normal time to be with the kids?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/06/07 06:30 PM
I'm okay. The problem is that I'm struggling again with acceptance. I want to tell her that this is wrong for our children and that it doesn't have to be this way. I'm fighting against what is. Those pangs of loss when you're confronted with a new layer of suckitude that you hadn't anticipated (missing Christmas Eve/morning) are triggering events.

Also realizing that if I don't get the kids back until the 26th (which I will probably agree to), I will be doing the loner thing for Dec 22 through the 25th. I have friends who will happily take me in, but I don't want to be that sad guy with no place to go so someone lets him come over. I was talking with my parents last night, and they suggested that I take a trip or the like during that time--maybe a cruise. I'm looking into that.

And then there's the fact that I turn 40 in a month and have nothing planned. Birthdays have never been a big deal for me, but it seems like I should do something for this one. I've been living day-to-day, though, and it's hard to think about any kind of celebration.

Like BR told me--not what I had planned for my life, and I get angry about it.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Fire Season - 11/06/07 07:31 PM
sd ~ you are right about the anger and the 'what is'.

However, re-think this holiday thing. What is best for your kids?

Is it good for your kids to be without their dad for even part of a holiday?!?

If you think it is in your children's best interest to be without their father for 5 days over Christmas...then agree.

But I imagine your children might want to see dad during this time and might miss him.

Visitation is about what is good for your children, not what is good for you or your selfish wife.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Fire Season - 11/06/07 08:05 PM
My SD Bro... man I feel for you, I'm in much the same sort of conversation with the IQ.

Course she's being even a bit more rediculous about it. We only have provisional orders at this point stating that the 'guidelines' apply for visitation.

Well the guidelines here basically state that one of us gets Thanksgiving, the other gets Christmas.. and we've always been able in the past to do her family's brunch tradition and my family's dinner tradition. She started out cordial enough saying she'd have to think about it and see what her family had planned, then get back to me. I sent her a thank you, and that there was no rush, just trying to form up plans and once she had an idea what she was doing that I'd prefer we work something out so that the kids could see us both on the holiday.

She decided instead to pick something miniscule out of the first email I sent and try to rile me up about it.. I just ignored.

Visitation is key on the holidays for kids.. if you want to see them over the holiday, fight for it.. if she's going out of town with them and the guidelines say she's got them, there's not a whole lot you can do.. but at least try to work something out if you can do it without a big confrontation.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/06/07 08:15 PM
I think the consolation is that they will spend the next week or so with me and my family and friends, and I think that's more important than fighting over the day itself. If I disrupt her travel plans fighting over the specifics of the day (24th/25th), why should she agree to let me take them away for a week? That's probably why the agreement is as vague as it is. Next year Christmas Eve and Day are both mine.

It means the loss of whatever traditions we would have had as a family for Christmas Eve/morning, but that is what is. Yes, I am sad about it, but we will just have to create new traditions. Maybe they will even include the SCQ at some point.

This the reality of divorce, right? It's obvious to just about everyone that it isn't in the best interest of the children, but waywards are wayward. That's where the whole temptation to talk to the SCQ comes in. Say "Look, this is wrong. Look at what you're doing to our children." Try to make her see the reality. Bring her out of the Fog. Some urges just don't go away. Or some of us are more thick-headed and stubborn than others.

I'm talking to Jennifer later today. (SL, I'd split time with you or ask questions for you if I could.)
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Fire Season - 11/06/07 08:23 PM
Good deal Guy.. well, it is at once discouraging and encouraging to know that the same feelings I have now are what I'm going to be feeling so long down the line. That they're natural and we learn to cope with them and learn to recognize them for what they are.

You and Bugs both have dropped some of the defenses you erected in your dark dark plan B's.. and it's causing you both some anxiety now. You expected this, and you're strong enough to deal with it.

Just keep in mind, you cannot educate her.. you cannot 'show' her anything anymore.. that's wrong thinking and trying to make yourself 'superior' to her in her eyes isn't going to advance your cause. She knows what she's doing to the children.. let it eat at her. You've stated your case.. she's rejecting the offer.. she knows what it means for them, and at 7 and 4 (mine that are involved in this are 8 and 3) believe me.. they'll be thinking of you on that special day.. she won't be able to hide from it.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Fire Season - 11/06/07 08:52 PM
Oh, guy, no splitting required. THis is my mess, and I'll work it out. You are a gem, though; don't you forget that.

I'll find a way.

You take your money and time and find yours, and as LG would say, count your blessings...(or is that Rosemary Clooney and Bing Crosby)
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/07/07 01:23 AM
I just finished with Jennifer. She agreed that things don't look good ("not headed the way we want" is how she put it) but encouraged me to keep going until the divorce is complete without accelerating it or another six months) but that she won't blame me any time I'm ready to give up. Wouldn't answer any kind of "what are my chances" questions, not that I really asked.

She was encouraged that the SCQ isn't pushing the divorce hard (it could have been done months ago if one of us was pushing).

When I commented that the SCQ probably assumes that I hate her she said I should think about sending the ILs an email apologizing for the communications blackout but that I want you to know I still love your daughter still have hope to restore our family etc and that I could cc the SCQ. That yes, the SCQ might think I am pathetic and tell me to get a life, but do I really care?

She congratulated me on the contact with the ILs that I did have (when DS7 called them) and that I should have the kids call them more often.

The beat goes on. . . .
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/08/07 12:38 AM
I'm calming down from having triggered myself thinking about the holidays. I sent an email to the SCQ today trying to tie up a few loose ends before sending anything to her parents--part of it was agreeing to a transfer on the 26th. I managed to avoid saying anything about not seeing the kids on the 24th/25th.

The other thing Jennifer told me was that I should go buy a new wedding band after I sheepishly told her I had thrown my original one into the ocean. And wear it. I'm vulnerable and need to guard my love bank while I am still married. (I guess I know that I'm vulnerable, but there are times when I wish that someone *would* take advantage of me.)
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Fire Season - 11/08/07 11:45 AM
Yes, you are vulnerable, and you already received my THWACK in email.

sd ~ I believe that you won't be ready to finish off this marriage until you learn to be OK alone. Oh and of course stop trying to fight with reality! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Take that focus off what your wife is doing...we can't fix her, leave her to God.

Get back to what YOU are doing that has nothing to do with her.

Remind me again why you don't have an intermediary? This email back and forth sets you back every single time.

Every time you talk to her, you also decide you need a "someone" to help medicate your discomfort.

You have no power over your wife and so you have no power to guarantee the outcome of your marriage. You DO have power over you, and how YOU come out of this. You can come out with your head held high that you fought for your family or you can come out with the guilt that you got down in the mud with the rest of the pigs in your life.

You are a father and your children are watching.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Fire Season - 11/08/07 12:30 PM
Woah.. duck the flying splinters from that 2X4...

But BR is right here.. and it's advice I can use too (thanks BR <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

I think you probably did the right thing in smoothing out the waters about the holidays.

I also worry about you and Bugs dropping your Plan B defense arrays little by little.. but I'd simply advise working with Jennifer and doing what she tells you to do.. they're the experts. I'm sure she gave you some advice on how to handle things this far in, listen to it and do what's in the best interest of you and the kids.

Look back through your posts here.. you went for so long not worrying about SCQ on a daily basis, yet you're right back there again with your contacts with her. Do you feel better every day now that you're back in contact with her? Is it helping you or the kids any? Is it accelerating the demise of her A? Where is the payoff here for you Guy?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/09/07 12:55 AM
There was a post on here earlier from PrincessMeggy about celebrating Christmas AGAIN with the kids. It seems to have wandered off, but I wanted to say thanks for the idea. We will certainly do that--celebrate it again, but giving it a name is a great idea.

And thanks James and BR.

Quote
I believe that you won't be ready to finish off this marriage until you learn to be OK alone.

My first reaction to this was a yeahbuttal. I can see why you say this. The most recent one about wanting to be taken advantage of was part whining/part joke. I know that's not the solution to the problem, and I am more protected than I might project. While I don't really feel that I owe the SCQ anything at this point, I respect the fact that I am still married, and I respect whomever might be interested in me way too much to be anything less than candid about my availability.

I have spent a lot of time alone over the last ten months, and I think I'm pretty good at it. I'm certainly not afraid of it. I'm still in it for the kids. Without them, it would have been S-C-who? many months ago. I know that things *could* be great between us again, but things will be great for me without the SCQ, too. At times I feel completely indifferent to whether I want to try recovery. Other times are different, like when I read LG say to SL Sis, Bugs, and Guy Smiley would probably kill to be where she is and thought 'yep.' Nope, not Done yet.

Regarding contact, it's unrealistic to think that there can be no contact in a situation like mine (kids aged seven and four going back and forth every couple of days). I had an intermediary doing a filter of email messages when they were full of Fogged-out venom. That's the kind of stuff I didn't want to read. But the emails became businesslike--just stuff about the kids. The SCQ didn't know she was being filtered, and there wasn't really anything to filter, so everything came through. I'm not convinced the added hassle is worth it in my case (where there is no venom in the communications). I could be wrong, though. Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment, like I said before.

For the most part, the triggering stuff is all stuff I've done to myself. Most recently it was me realizing that my kids and I won't have Christmas memories the way I wanted them to be (fighting against what is) rather than anything specific from the interaction. Before that, getting worked up over weekends--that was largely my own fault for thinking too much about intentions.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Fire Season - 11/09/07 01:03 AM
Quote
There was a post on here earlier from PrincessMeggy about celebrating Christmas AGAIN with the kids. It seems to have wandered off, but I wanted to say thanks for the idea. We will certainly do that--celebrate it again, but giving it a name is a great idea.

Sorry... I deleted it because after I thought about it I thought that it might sound silly because it was such a simple idea. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Glad you liked the idea though and you can probably think of a better name for it that your kids would enjoy and remember for years to come. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Fire Season - 11/09/07 11:53 AM
Hey Guy,

Just checking in after being out of town.

You know, I find that as time goes on, we must face each season, each holiday as they come along and it almost always involves triggers. Yet, I know it will get easier with time - - It HAS to! But the FIRST time we face them under our new and un-chosen circumstances is very difficult.

I look at the calendar knowing that is going to be the case with each passing day/event. I 'try' to prepare myself, knowing it's going to be difficult and then allow myself the feelings that come along. At the same time, knowing that these feelings are coming gives me the ability to recognize them and not let them drag me down too far. Sometimes it doesn't work so well, other times it does. And you know what? That's OK.

With the "Silly Season" approaching, we are bound to have some major ups and downs. It's going to be a couple of months of potentially hard times for us, but thank goodness we all have each other here for support!

Keeping you all in my prayers! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Fire Season - 11/09/07 04:47 PM
Hey, Guy, just wanted to pop in and see how you're doin'. All things considered, you sound good.

I think PM's idea is a good one. Essentially, I decided to do the same kind of thing. Although WH and I have always been in agreement about one parent having DDs on Christmas Eve and one parent having them on Christmas Day. Mainly that works because we don't travel.

I could have fought about Christmas, with no actual agreement being in place, but I'm letting that go and will make Christmas Eve our Christmas this year.

Do what you can do, and make the most of whatever that is. These kids grow so fast, we blink and they're gone. I only have 4 Christmas left with DD14 living at home - that really puts it in to perspective. Do I want to make one of those 4 years more difficult on her because I'm fighting with her dad over her?

Yup, AFFAIRS SUCK!

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/10/07 09:17 PM
Thanks for checking in, Fox and Bugs. Yesterday was not great. Between the lingering cold and one too many nights in a row with almost enough sleep, I had a rough day. Today, though, kidless, I slept late and feel pretty good.

I had various shopping plans for the afternoon but nothing really planned for the evening, so when I ran across great reviews online for the new Coen brothers movie after having heard about it on NPR last night, I thought I would go see it. I don't think I've been to a movie by myself yet, and our movie attendance had trickled off to nothing, so this was, well, not a big deal, but something.

So I look for times. Limited city release. No showings in my area. San Diego is the sixth largest city in America and likes to call itself America's Finest City (and some city government financial shenanigans notwithstanding, I don't know that I disagree), but the *one* movie I actually want to see today isn't showing here. Showing in Los Angeles. 100 miles.

Sigh.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Fire Season - 11/11/07 01:52 PM
SD

Hey man - I read this -

Quote
So I look for times. Limited city release. No showings in my area. San Diego is the sixth largest city in America and likes to call itself America's Finest City (and some city government financial shenanigans notwithstanding, I don't know that I disagree), but the *one* movie I actually want to see today isn't showing here. Showing in Los Angeles. 100 miles


And *I* immediately thought "GUY" ROAD TRIP! Next time call a buddy and do it! why not???

What can we call this,,,,for us ladies it is using our Goddess Mentality,,,,,,,,

You know what I mean - getting out of the hole and thinking outside of the box to do things for yourself.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/11/07 06:05 PM
I thought about it, Bugs, but I couldn't quite justify four hours worth of Southern California traffic for a movie showing. I did my shopping, ate out, watched some stuff on cable--it was good.

Kids due back in a couple of hours.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Fire Season - 11/11/07 10:25 PM
SD,

I don't understand or appreciate SoCal traffic here in the Midwest! LOL! Glad you atleast gave it a thought - as the idea is to consider things you may not normally do as a 'treat' to yourself!


Glad the shopping, dinner and cable was good.

It will be good to have the kids home!
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Fire Season - 11/11/07 10:38 PM
*shudder*

Bugs, count yourself lucky.

I'm in NJ, in the NYC metro area. I live 18 miles from work.

I spend 2-3 hours a day in the car round trip.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Fire Season - 11/12/07 01:37 AM
Y'all (or should I more appropriately say "youze guys") need to check out MEDC's "where to live" thread....

And I'll leave it at that...

(....high-fiving Bugs in the fly-over states...)

Glad you are feeling better, sd.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Fire Season - 11/12/07 03:38 AM
SD - forgive me a brief TJ here ,,,

BR,

WOW! Your post really made me laugh. I grew up in a rural farming community. NO stop lights in the entire town. I have lived/worked in the closest metropolitan city for some time.

My Dad, God Bless him, always asks me how FAR something is. I always reply with "well Dad, it takex X minutes to get there". He then asks again, how FAR it is. He doesn't get that in some places 18 miles could take 2-3 hours by car! Well, it wouldn't take that long where I am,,,, Thank goodness!!!
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Fire Season - 11/12/07 03:58 AM
Quote
I'm in NJ, in the NYC metro area. I live 18 miles from work.

I spend 2-3 hours a day in the car round trip.

Dang BR, too bad you can't get travel pay!

In Dallas we always refer to the "time it takes to get somewhere" when asked how far something because of our lovely traffic. And you'll get different estimates in five-minute increments. Well... if you leave at 7:05 a.m., you'll get there in 25 minutes, if you leave at 7:10 a.m., you'll get there in an hour, etc. LOL
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/12/07 06:39 AM
Wow, BR. Mercifully, my commute is rarely more than 20 minutes, but with the SO-Cal freeways, you never know what you're going to get. Especially if you wander up north towards LA.

I'm from Illinois, though, and can remember life without traffic concerns.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Fire Season - 11/12/07 12:19 PM
SD,,,,,

Where in Illinois are you from? That is my state of origin!
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Fire Season - 11/12/07 04:01 PM
hi, just dropping in...reading up...you sound well...good for you!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/13/07 03:19 AM
Thanks for dropping by, Rin. Some days I feel like I'm doing well. Other days I feel like I am tolerating/surviving this period of insanity in the hopes that my children can have an intact family (which is probably the same as doing well).

Bugs, I'm from Bloomington-Normal, although it's been a long time since that was home. I'll be headed back there after Christmas, though.

Tonight on a lark I went to the spinning class at the company fitness center. I've never been to a spinning class before. Not being a real aerobic exercise guy, I was a bit concerned, but I neither died nor threw up, and I was able to walk away unassisted. Hooray! Gotta get some food now, though.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Fire Season - 11/13/07 04:16 AM
SD,

Bloomington-Normal is a bit north of my old stomping grounds, but am familiar with it.

Quote
Tonight on a lark I went to the spinning class at the company fitness center. I've never been to a spinning class before. Not being a real aerobic exercise guy, I was a bit concerned, but I neither died nor threw up, and I was able to walk away unassisted. Hooray


That calls for a celebration in my book! Good job on not throwing up! LOL!! I think you have inspired me to hit the treadmill in the morning!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/13/07 06:46 AM
Just sent the following email to the ILs and cc'd the SCQ:

Quote
Dear MIL and FIL,

I'm sorry that I went so long without any communication, but I expect you understand that this has been an emotionally difficult time for me.

I want you to know that I still love your daughter. I still desire for her to return to a new life with me. I still hope to restore our family so that our children can be raised together with both parents.

It is my heart's desire that the SCQ and I will live a new lifestyle where we will create and sustain romantic feelings for one another, and I know that this is possible.

Pretty much word for word from Jennifer. I have no expectation that the ILs can do anything. FIL called my house the other day and left a message for the kids. Not the SCQ.

And it's not like there's anything to lose. If the SCQ thinks I'm pathetic, so what? If it pushes her into completing the divorce sooner, that's okay, too.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Fire Season - 11/13/07 10:58 AM
Regardless, I think it is good that you initiated some contact. Sounds as if they have removed themselves from the situation, which is good in relation to the A, and bad in relation to the kids. That must be difficult for them.

"Neither died nor threw up" HA HA

Over here, DS11 made chocolate chip cookies (all by himself!), and I ate dough.

So good for you!!! You are sounding better.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Fire Season - 11/13/07 01:25 PM
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tonight on a lark I went to the spinning class at the company fitness center. I've never been to a spinning class before. Not being a real aerobic exercise guy, I was a bit concerned, but I neither died nor threw up, and I was able to walk away unassisted. Hooray


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Quote
That calls for a celebration in my book! Good job on not throwing up! LOL!! I think you have inspired me to hit the treadmill in the morning!

Quote
Over here, DS11 made chocolate chip cookies (all by himself!), and I ate dough.

I'm more inspired to eat cookie dough... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Hey guy,

I think it's good that you have reached a place where you can express yourself without worrying over the SCQ's reaction. If it's how you feel then why not say it, right?

I am just really getting this one. I wrote a letter to PWC stating three reasons that I love him, and then expressing my fear over even typing the letter; how it takes a lot of courage for me to do what was once such a simple task, expressing my love for him.

One thing I can say, I'm no longer afraid to express how I feel and what I believe in, as it really is about ME not HIM.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/13/07 05:22 PM
So, the seats on those spinning cycles are really not padded well, and today my ##### hurts.

Mmm, cookie dough. With nuts, or no nuts? You know you can buy the stuff in convenient snack-sized tubs now, right? Not that it's not great that your DS11 made cookies all by himself--that is very cool.

Quote
I think it's good that you have reached a place where you can express yourself without worrying over the SCQ's reaction. If it's how you feel then why not say it, right?

I guess I've braced myself somewhat, but I really have no expectations that this will make a difference or that her reaction will be anything other than Fog-based.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Fire Season - 11/13/07 05:25 PM
Cookie dough is part of what got me in the weight mess that I'm in right now (not to mention, hmmm, wine, vodka, FRIED stuff, BUTTERED stuff, STUFF).

Sorry 'bout your [censored], my friend. I actually considered taking my bike out about 2 months ago, but then thought about the [censored] thing and decided to jump rope and hit the heavy bag instead. No bum issues there.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/15/07 06:34 AM
I got this response from the ILs today:

Quote
This is a difficult time for all of us. We have shared our thoughts
and desires to both of you and as third parties in all of this we can
only hope and pray that whatever the final decision is that it will be
the best for all concerned. You and the SCQ alone know all the details
that lead up to the events that you two find yourselves in today.
These things are never just one sided and that is what makes them so
difficult not only to understand but also to resolve.

We love you both and just pray that the outcome will meet both of your
needs

I don't know exactly what to make of this. It evokes some responses from me, which I was really intending not to do.

The SCQ sent me a business-like email about kid stuff the next day, which, had I spent any time trying to predict what she would do, is what I would have predicted she would do. I responded in kind.
Posted By: believer Re: Fire Season - 11/15/07 06:59 AM
Oh, SDGuy, this is the typical in-law response. Read it like this: Our daughter is being irresponsible and an adulteress. We have warned her about that, but she continues on her merry path. So it might have been something that YOU caused, but in the end, we hope our daughter, you, and the kids will live happily ever after.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/15/07 07:54 AM
You're right, Believer. I've been through all of this stuff with them before. When I exposed to them and found out that MIL had an affair (and she said things like the SCQ needs to listen to what I have to say) I was hopeful and gave them lots of info. Stuff from here, told them how affairs work--the whole bit.

They talked a good game at first but eventually backed off ("we DID talk to her" and "she's our daughter"). It made me angry for a while, but I've cooled off. I think they are pretty typical, and I don't know that it would have made much of a difference if they had gone all out to stop the affair. It's not like the SCQ is close to them.

There are all sorts of things to respond to in their note, but I don't imagine that there is much of a point. I'm going to give it some time before I do anything.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Fire Season - 11/15/07 11:51 AM
"Thank you for your kind thoughts. Please call any time you would like to see the children.

Love sdguy"

Anything else is a waste of your important, precious energy that needs to be spent on you and your kids.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/15/07 07:05 PM
So tempting . . . must educate . . . solve problem . . . .

Quote
Anything else is a waste of your important, precious energy that needs to be spent on you and your kids.

Right. Thanks.

Feeling pretty good. I think I'm going to do the cruise thing before Christmas.
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Fire Season - 11/15/07 08:55 PM
ow, ow ow, take me, take me....can I go? PLEASSSSSSEEEEEEEE!! I promise I'll be good! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

i won't drink 2 much, I'll dress nice...I'll be on my bestest BE hav ior!

LMAO...You sound great! like ,,,,hummm...peaceful? Almost...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Fire Season - 11/15/07 11:49 PM
GET OUTTA THE WAY, RIN!!!! (Fox hip-bumps Rin - sends her flying)

Me, me!!! I wanna go! I promise not to say "yeah, but"

Really, I won't, I promise. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, Rin, but a girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do! Guy Smiley said CRUISE! (Fox helps Rin up)

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/16/07 01:27 AM
Quote
I promise not to say "yeah, but"

LOL

If I offered to share my cabin with anyone from here, I'm pretty sure BR would launch a rocket at my head. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Fire Season - 11/16/07 03:36 AM
GuySmiley,

Share a cabin? Heck no?! I would figure you're the kind of guy who would be 'proper' enough to spring for a SUITE with separate bedrooms!!

I have 11 days of vacation time left to burn before the end of the year,,,,,,,,,

he he he!
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Fire Season - 11/16/07 05:22 AM
ladies - sdguy is still a married man...and some of you are still married women...

yes...I am BR the Flirtation Terminator!

I am sure one my teenage boys can show me how to launch a rocket...
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Fire Season - 11/16/07 03:48 PM
Was that flirting? [email]D@mn[/email], I was just looking for an excuse to hip-bump Rin. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

All intended in jest - among a group of friends. Somtimes it's the light heartedness here that gives us a smile we might not have had that day.

Have a great day all! Hope you make that cruise, sdguy, and have a fantastic time.

Fox
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Fire Season - 11/16/07 03:59 PM
Oh, Rin. I thought I better add that a hip-bump around my house is a compliment - a sign of affection.

So, if I hip-bump Guy Smiley, call me on it... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Fox
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Fire Season - 11/16/07 04:54 PM
hip-bumping the other girls out of the way to take a cruise with sdguy is flirting.

I certainly would not be ok with my husband joking around with other guys in competition to go on a cruise with a woman. Even in jest.

"Just a joke" is the start of many affair.

boundaries are becoming very stretched over here, and that is NOT a good thing for sdguy.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Fire Season - 11/16/07 05:02 PM
Oh, yeah? Well....here's a hip-bump to you, BR. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Fox
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Fire Season - 11/16/07 05:09 PM
I want the trip...NOT SD...never been on a cruise! Barely been out of the state! (Sorry SD, just being O&H, no reflection on you!)

Plan Aing! MYSELF! It's a SD really!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Fire Season - 11/16/07 05:22 PM
instead of the cute responses...how about...

"Whoops, I'm sorry sdguy, I got carried away with silliness and I didn't mean to disrespect your marriage."
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/16/07 05:28 PM
It's all good. And I know what you're saying, Rin, and it's what Fox and Bugs were saying, too.

I'm better protected than BR thinks, but as I considered a flirty response, I could feel the steely glare from her (and it wasn't just the eyes in the back of her head, she had actually turned her head around to look directly at me).

It's nice that you all care. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Fire Season - 11/16/07 05:32 PM
Cool!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Fire Season - 11/16/07 05:34 PM
Whoa . . . hey . . . how about those Cubs?

Or, man, I'm glad those fires are out.

Or, has anyone actually seen the Coen brothers movie that doesn't open here until Wednesday? Or maybe Beowulf? That one looked like it has potential, but I haven't seen any reviews yet.
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Fire Season - 11/16/07 05:37 PM
look up...the world is a bright and shiny place!
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: SDGuy's taking us all on a cruise! - 11/16/07 05:41 PM
I think you know what we meant - just being light hearted, in no way intending to be flirtatous.

Although we know you are a guy (but only because you say so) - I tend to treat you like a girlfriend, and include you in the girlfriend ribbing.

My apologies if YOU saw my post as a boundary breach.

Fox (showing restraint in responding to others)

p.s. Oops...just noticed you got silly again while I was posting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> My bad, for going back there.
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: SDGuy's taking us all on a cruise! - 11/16/07 05:48 PM
I agree with Fox on the girlfriend ribbing...I also am sorry if I breached a boundary of YOUR!

So, LSU is playing MS this weekend, two games to go! I'm so excited...I'm going to miss watchin the game tomorrow...other plans...

I wanted to watch them this pass weekend being I graduated from Tech but with complications I couldn't get teh game!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: SDGuy's taking us all on a cruise! - 11/16/07 08:09 PM
No apologies required. That you guys treat me the way you do means a lot to me. I understood the intent all along.

I also value that BR is looking out for me.

Say, BR, did you go to Catholic school with nuns and knuckle-whacking with rulers and all of that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: SDGuy's taking us all on a cruise! - 11/16/07 08:19 PM
*snort*

affairs have happened on this board btwn BSes.

behave.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: SDGuy's taking us all on a cruise! - 11/16/07 08:27 PM
Sdguy, how do you like your subject title? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: SDGuy's taking us all on a cruise! - 11/16/07 08:29 PM
LMAO.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: SDGuy's taking us all on a cruise! - 11/16/07 09:16 PM
Heh. Guess I will need that suite. . . .
Am I reading correctly! Oh, I could use a cruise. I'm in, as long as you are payin', and it's not shared quarters. I could meet you guys up on the LEDO deck for drinks before dinner. I'll wear my floor length dinner gown and long, sparkly earrings...(picture the LOVE BOAT--70's style)
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: SDGuy's taking us all on a cruise! - 11/16/07 10:04 PM
[SDGuy gives you the two-fingered point that Isaac the bartender gave]
AWESOME!!! I needed a little Isaac right now! Did you throw in a wink, too?
Posted By: LilSis Re: SDGuy's taking us all on a cruise! - 11/16/07 10:12 PM
You rang?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: SDGuy's taking us all on a cruise! - 11/16/07 10:15 PM
Quote
Did you throw in a wink, too?

No way. BR's still lurking. I don't want to get brained with my own shovel.
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: SDGuy's taking us all on a cruise! - 11/16/07 11:48 PM
Friday night PJ party anyone? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: SDGuy's taking us all on a cruise! - 11/17/07 11:36 AM
Oh my,,,,, I am having flash backs picturing the 70's looks,,,the Isaac point & wink!!

I wanted to be a cruise director,,,I thought Julie had the best job EVER! Oh, and don't foget Gopher! Admit it ladies,,you did think he was cute!

Ok - back to port and reality!

What's the weekend plan SD? Kid fun or Guys & football or both?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: SDGuy's taking us all on a cruise! - 11/18/07 01:15 AM
Hey, Bugs

Low-impact weekend. My parents are here for a couple of weeks (through Thanksgiving and DS7's birthday). Today DS7 went to Legoland with a friend, the rest of us did a little shopping and played around.

Kids go over tomorrow. We'll probably watch some football--maybe walk on the beach.

That and fight the urge to respond to ILs. So far I'm winning the fight.
Posted By: sdguy038 Latest Email Contact - 11/19/07 06:19 PM
Here's my latest exchange

From the SCQ:

Quote
Have you looked into [house appraisal] at all? An appraisial still needs to be done no matter what else you find out. The appraiser doesn't have to through the company that might fund the loan.

My response:

Quote
Yes, I talked with [our old realtor] about a month ago and got her estimate of the value of the house (between $xx and $xxk). Zillow today says $xxk.

Why does an appraisal need to be done? Yes, for a loan refi, but we can agree to whatever we want, right? I know that your lawyer told mine we need to get it appraised, so they are looking into that.

My lawyer tells me that you can leave equity in the house without having tax consequences.

My preference is to negotiate the basics of an agreement without doing it through the lawyers. But then, my preference is not to get divorced at all.

It doesn't have to be this way.

So there are potential triggers in here, but I'm aware of them and am feeling pretty solid.

I know I could protect myself better by sending everything through the lawyers, but I am confident I can save myself a great deal of money by negotiating directly with her and then have the lawyers write it up.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Latest Email Contact - 11/19/07 07:56 PM
So I saw No Country for Old Men yesterday, and I'm open for interpretations.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Latest Email Contact - 11/20/07 08:39 PM
How are you SD?

Quote
So I saw No Country for Old Men yesterday, and I'm open for interpretations.

Can't help. I have not seen it and did not read the book. I usually like Tommy Lee Jones movies though.

Have a great Thanksgiving SD.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Latest Email Contact - 11/20/07 09:22 PM
Not here, yet. I like Tommy Lee Jones, too.

I saw The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford this past weekend. I didn't really care for it.

I have "American Outlaws" which is also about Jesse James (played by Colin Ferrell). Jesse James, the gang, and his wife are all pretty likeable.

This new movie, they are not. And Jesse James was a bit wacko.

I haven't even seen previews for the movie you are talking about....I think I'll look it up.

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: Latest Email Contact - 11/20/07 09:39 PM
My favorite James Gang movie was the Long Riders. 3-Carradines as the Younger brothers, 2-Keachs as the James brothers, 2-Quaids as the Miller brothers and 2-Guests as the Ford boys.

The "Bloody Sam" Peckenpah slo-mo style gunfight in Northfield Minnesota at the end is terrific.

Great music by Ry Cooder too!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Latest Email Contact - 11/20/07 09:53 PM
I've looked around a bit more, and the movie appears to be getting great reviews because it is an excellent piece of filmmaking and it is Literary. It may leave some audiences unsatisfied.

Example: Barry Corbin, the guy who played Maurice on Northern Exposure, has a small (but excellent) bit near the end of the movie. As we were walking out, I overheard two old ladies, one of whom was saying "and he was on that show...the one about Alaska."

"Northern Exposure," I filled in for them, as we slowly moved past. They were pleased. Then one of them said "Maybe he knows. Do you know what happened to the [critical plot element]?" I had to tell them "Sorry, can't help you there."

The acting performances were great--Tommie Lee Jones, Josh Brolin, and the rest.

It was my movie for the year. I find I don't miss the theater. I had trouble getting comfortable, someone's cell phone went off, I could hear the movie in the theater next door.

Quote
How are you SD?

I'm okay. Triggery from the contact, and because the SCQ responded with

Quote
How does it work if I leave equity in the house so that there are no tax consequences when I get it out? Wouldn't I be taxed on getting money from you if the house is in your name? Would it be considered income in the IRS's mind? Can you have your lawyer explain this to you?

We can negotiate without lawyers. That is fine. And not getting an official appraisal if we agree on the value and it is kosher with the courts then I am ok with that.

So now what? Am I just making it easier for her to divorce me this way? And do I care? One group of SDG supporters will say "Get it over with!" and another will say "Why are you talking with her and negotiating the divorce if you still want to be married?"

Oh, hey...I just realized it's the two-year anniversary of D-Day. Maybe that's symbolic. It seems a lifetime ago.

So, yeah, triggery. Mild urges to reach out and Educate her ("You realize that some day your kids will hate you for giving up on this marriage without ever trying to save it, right?") or a letter to POSOM's daughters telling them who and what their father is--the desire to make them hurt. But I won't do any of that stuff. I'm okay.

Thanks for dropping in.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Latest Email Contact - 11/21/07 12:44 AM
I don't know about the whole house deal. XWH has a lien against the house for his half of the equity, at a 5% interest rate, payable when I remarry, cohabitate, sell, or the youngest graduates from high school.

Otherwise, the house is in my name.

The issue of tax consequences never came up...but maybe because the way we did this is just the way it's done. I got the kids, so we get the house.

In terms of movies, I'm going to see Enchanted with the boys tomorrow. How's that for a higher order cinematic experience?

Sorry about the triggers lately. It's pretty crummy. Don't you just get so tired of it? I hope that the holiday turns out to be a good time instead of a reason to be sad.

Take care, sd.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Latest Email Contact - 11/21/07 11:46 AM
SD,

Ok, it reads like you have danced around a bit with SCQ and with the issue/question of if you are making it easier for her to D you.

Do you want to talk about it or should the Siskel & Ebert Movie Review portion of the thread continue?

I am not trying to sound harsh - just asking what you really want to talk about?? I think you know the answers to your own questions about making the D easier,,,,,,

Sorry for the triggers. This month also marks the anniversary of MY DDay as well so I can certainly understand! It SUCKS!

I'm taking the kids this weekend to see either the B Movie or Mr. Magoriums Magic Emporium (sp). Anyone seen those??
Posted By: LilSis Re: Latest Email Contact - 11/21/07 12:09 PM
B Movie was cute. I had higher hopes for a Seinfeld movie, frankly, but he sets the bar pretty high, and it is a kids movie afterall. There can't be any master of my domain talk going on.

Something about Mr. Magorium does NOT appeal to me. I guess I'm not into those hyped up fantasy movies. I didn't see Willie Wonka, either, when Johnny Depp's version came out.

I'll report on Enchanted this afternoon....

I've got triggers coming up, too. What would have been our 13th wedding anniversary is Dec. 10. Unlucky 13. Maybe I should arrange to sign the final D papers on that day...One less trigger day to face every year.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Latest Email Contact - 11/21/07 12:18 PM
BTW....it is what it is, right?

I don't necessarily think that you are making it easier for her to divorce you. The divorce wheels keep turning. You can't stop them. You still need to take care of yourself, for now and for the future.

And if it is financially advantageous to negotiate directly, or if you feel comfortable with that, and you feel like you know what you are doing and don't need legal advice, then do it.

I don't think it's making it easier, it may be making it cheaper, for the both of you. If you end up with the same result that you would have with lawyers negotiating at $500/hour....then what was the point? It would be a Pyhrric victory, at best.

The negotiations will go one...one way or another. You do what feels right.

IMO.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Latest Email Contact - 11/21/07 06:33 PM
Entertainment Weekly gave the Magorium movie a terrible review (F, I think). My kids liked the B movie (they went with the SCQ).

You're perceptive, Bugs. I was reluctant to talk about the exchange and what it meant because I knew the triggering stuff was stuff I was largely bringing upon myself. I did feel better having talked about it, though. Today I feel good again.

Regarding negotiations, I was hesitant to discuss that, too, because it made me feel mercenary, or greedy, or something. But Sis, you totally nailed it for me in your second post. The potential savings for me are well into 5 figures, and it's not like I can stop the wheels.

Thanks for that, Sis. And you, too, Bugs. You guys are awesome.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Latest Email Contact - 11/22/07 12:03 AM
Gently falling....ash??

It's supposed to snow tonight, in fact.

You need to get back to the Midwest, guy. We have beaches for walking here, too.

Okay...so here's the movie report:

Enchanted was great. I really loved it. It was so sweet...but not icky/sicky sweet...just innocent/sweet. The boys loved it, too. I'd go again. It got a 92% on Rotten Tomatoes.

Definitely a must see.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Latest Email Contact - 11/22/07 02:34 AM
I don't even know what Enchanted is about. I'm thinking that I'm going to do most of my movie watching in my home from now on (watched the Departed last night), but kid movies are probably an exception, so I'll take a look at Enchanted.

I'll be back in Illinois for a week after Christmas--do you think that will be enough? The blood thins pretty quickly out here in this climate.

If it snows tonight, take an extra look for me, will you?
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Latest Email Contact - 11/22/07 02:54 AM
My husband and I took our daughter to see Enchanted tonight.

It was well done - although the beginning was so sickly sweet I thought my husband was going to bolt in the first 5 minutes...he had this pained, gritting his teeth look on his face....thank goodness it got more "real"!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Latest Email Contact - 11/22/07 07:13 AM
Okay, I watched the trailer again. I'm thinking that my 4-year old daughter isn't quite ready for it. Thoughts?
Posted By: LilSis Re: Latest Email Contact - 11/22/07 12:41 PM
I can't imagine what would frighten her, especially if she watches the other Disney movies. It's been a while for me, and my boys never watched them, but I recall the evil stepmothers in Little Mermaid, Snow White, etc. were pretty scary.

Susan Sarandon sort of spoofs them, but that would be above DD's head.

I thought this was less disturbing than some of those animated princess/evil stepmother tales.

Go to iTunes, and you can download a free "featurette." That will give you a better idea and help you make that decision.

I just realized it's PG...????
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Latest Email Contact - 11/22/07 01:56 PM
I agree with Sis, I think it's a bit less scary than some of the animated wicked stepmothers.

The only difference - perhaps - is that this wicked stepmother is 'real', and the acting is pretty good. Depends on your daughter and how sensitive she is. If she is in to princesses...she will LOVE Princess Giselle.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Latest Email Contact - 11/22/07 05:42 PM
Thanks. I guess I was thinking more in terms of whether it would hold her attention rather than be scary. She is into princesses, though.

I'll check out the featurette.

Happy Thanksgiving!
Posted By: sdguy038 Triggers - 11/25/07 08:56 PM
Talk about triggers.

Yesterday I got a mild one, when the SCQ emailed me questioning the equity/tax consequences thing, including

Quote
Look at how difficult you have been with changing the weekend schedule both for one specific weekend and weekends in general. So difficult that I have had to file a motion with the court to get us back in family mediation to have someone else work this out for us.

I managed to shake that one off without sending a blistering reply, then today she calls my mom (parents are still here, and the SCQ has the kids until Tuesday). Says she called my mom because she wasn't sure I would talk to her, asks if we can keep the kids today.

Why? Because one of POSOM's best friends died from a brain aneurism yesterday and now no one can find POSOM, and she wants to go look for him because she's worried. My mom agreed, and, while I would have been happy to have the kids for the day, it was massively triggering. Ultimately, she called back (because she got in touch with him) and said she was keeping the kids.

Can you believe the nerve? Mom said she could hear the shame in her voice, but it was clearly not enough.

I found myself thinking (and saying) that it was a shame it wasn't POSOM that had the aneurism, and that I would welcome it if POSOM had done something to himself. Is that wrong?

SCQ just sent me an email thanking me for being reasonable. So many possible responses (You have no idea what reasonable is; I can't believe your callousness; or the one I really want to send: Maybe he was with OMW). I won't send anything.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Triggers - 11/25/07 11:02 PM
ask mom not to provide so many details....

Mom to sdguy: Can you keep the kids today?

sdguy: yes.

End of conversation.

This affair will end. Protect yourself - you are dying a death of a million little cuts...
Posted By: LilSis Re: Triggers - 11/25/07 11:54 PM
Hey, sd.

I just got on to talk about my own triggers, which are oh so mild in comparison.

I am impressed that you had the sense of humor to come up with the alternate aneurysm victim. Oh, what sweet revenge that would be.

(this even though I've been trying so hard on this Sunday to not think vindictive or hateful thoughts....chalk one more up to ask forgiveness for)

Not to talk about you like you aren't here, BR, but I'm wondering about her comment, SD...do you think the affair will end? I know that Fox has this "feeling" that Babs will be history. And of course everyone says that affairs always end.

Personally, I go back and forth, believing that WH/RT are doomed, doomed, doomed (and in this lifetime)....and then thinking that they are 3%ers who will live (at least superficially) happy ever after. It's much more the latter, these days.

Why am I even thinking about it? I have to reprogram my brain. I did pretty well this weekend, without kids...tons of retail therapy. But I swear, they walk in the door and I have to do that "catch up" thing. Get back in synch with them.

And of course DS9 lets slip that the RT's came over to decorate cookies. And that they went out with BIL/SIL to dinner on Friday, and that MIL/FIL came over for dinner today. Meanwhile, I was here alone....and it is tempting to throw myself a little pity party.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Triggers - 11/26/07 12:11 AM
Sorry...that was a huge TJ.

SCQ is pretty ballsy. I cannot possibly imagine calling my MIL to ask if she and my BH could watch our children so that I could go track down my POSOM.

From your perspective, with your kids involved, your marriage being made into a farce, and your feelings being completely disregarded, it is scary, sad, and hurtful. From the outside, it is so absurd that she would do such a thing that it's hardly believable.

I'm so sorry, sd.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggers - 11/26/07 03:53 AM
Thanks, BR and Sis, as always.

Quote
ask mom not to provide so many details....

We talked about this. I got into her a bit about trying to push me into being done, which she admittedly has been doing. She agreed to back off.

I also got into her about how could she be so nice to the SCQ and why didn't she hate her. This was my raw emotion talking--me wanting the SCQ to hurt and not be comfortable. I later conceded that it's a good thing that Mom is able to continue to be nice to the SCQ. I think that, all things considered, she's doing a great job supporting me in this.

Quote
chalk one more up to ask forgiveness for

Yeah, I already asked for forgiveness.

Quote
I cannot possibly imagine calling my MIL to ask if she and my BH could watch our children so that I could go track down my POSOM.

The SCQ only admitted why she needed the time when my mom asked her. Plus, we have a right of first refusal regarding babysitting. On the other hand, she didn't mention that, and I honestly think she called us because she has no one else.

Quote
do you think the affair will end?

I do think it will end. I don't know how soon, and I admit that I could be wrong. Like I said, I think the SCQ has no one else. I think that POSOM has become her whole life. I think that she's a person who doesn't have too much of a personality and takes on the personality of whomever she's with. I think she has completely aligned herself with POSOM, and this was complete before I ever found out about the affair.

So, the SCQ has completely dedicated herself to this, but a whole day goes by where no one can get hold of POSOM (apparently the aneurysm--thanks Sis--happened yesterday), including the SCQ. How can the SCQ not know where he is? What does this say about their relationship?

I think it's entirely possible he was with his wife, or some other woman. I'm pretty convinced that he is a scumbag and has been lying all along, but the SCQ has to figure that out on her own.

But she has so much invested in the affair now that it will take a lot to get her to wake up, and it's likely that it won't happen in time to save our marriage. And I'm not even sure that I want to.

I was mentally composing a post yesterday about how I'm absolutely ready to move on without the SCQ but that it's not fair that I'm stuck with her as the mother of my children. At what point will I no longer be willing to take her back? Does it matter? It's not what is today. Worry about it when it happens.

Sis, you're cleared to TJ over here any time you want.

Quote
you are dying a death of a million little cuts...

I have been a die-hard fan of the Chicago Cubs National League baseball team for 30 years now. I am invulnerable.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Triggers - 11/26/07 12:41 PM
SD,

OMG! SCQ has some mighty big balls! Good job not reacting to it. IF any of what she said was true,,,,that no one knew where POSOM was,,,affairland is not the happy place it once was.

The BEST thing you did was not participate in the DRAMA. They need that to keep the A going, and it sounds like they are doing just fine in the Drama dept on their own.

Good job!! I know it was painful for you, and BR is right, you don't need the details as they do hurt. It's hard for folks IRL to understand that.

Cubs fan? Oh sweetheart! God Love ya!

From a LifeLong Cardinals fan!!
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Triggers - 11/26/07 12:55 PM
Quote
Why? Because one of POSOM's best friends died from a brain aneurism yesterday and now no one can find POSOM, and she wants to go look for him because she's worried.


She's worried he's boffing some other woman! Don't we all remember those feelings when our spouses didn't come home until waaaaay after they were expected. Hmmmm, could he/she be having an affair? NO, COULDN'T BE!!!

You handled that pretty well, but this was in NO WAY an emergency, guy. No one should be answering that phone, even your mother. If SCQ is able bodied and the kids are okay, then that's the extent of your involvement.

Cubs fan or no, those cuts still make you bleed.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Triggers - 11/26/07 01:00 PM
Quote
I am invulnerable.

What is it that they say about pride going before a fall?

You may be able to white knuckle through Plan B. Stuff those emotions...

And then exlode and melt down at some time when you least expect it, and of course when it will do the maximum damage to your life.

And what if....she comes home?

Recovery is so hard - so so much harder than Plan A or Plan B. And these little things - each of these incidents become obstacles in recovery.

POSOM has just had a real close up look at reality. I would not be surprised to find out that the cracks in their relationship are becoming giant gaping holes.

I've been through the devastation of unexpectedly losing someone I love.

Hold your plan B. She's about to feel some consequences - especially when OM is incapable of meeting her needs...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggers - 11/26/07 06:24 PM
Quote
What is it that they say about pride going before a fall?

Yeah, yeah, I was making light of the situation. I know that it's death of a thousand cuts. I know I'm better off not knowing.

But believe me, I let the emotions out yesterday. I raged, said terrible things about her, jumped on my mom a bit for not feeling the same way about her, and then I got collected and went about my day.

The other thing that happened yesterday is it made me want to contact OMW and get an update. Stir the pot if there's anything to stir. It stirred up my hopes, if only briefly.

But the SCQ has to be the one to figure it out. I have to resist the temptations to reach out right now.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggers - 11/26/07 08:11 PM
BR said on LilSis's thread

Quote
I still struggle with guilt over choices I've made that have resulted in "what is" instead of what was "supposed to be". Marrying an alcoholic and having three children before getting a clue is one of those things.

This is one that has begun plaguing me. How could I get this far into my life without realizing who I married? What kind of life have I doomed my children to?

These are probably really unhealthy thoughts, so I generally try to avoid them, but your comment jumped out at me.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Triggers - 11/26/07 08:55 PM
Hey, Guy. Not much to add....looks like you are pretty well covered.

I'm grateful that WH is giving me the silent treatment right now - then I don't have to make the decision on how to respond to him.

He's an unhappy man - and this is reflected in how he treats everyone around him. I doubt Bab's is an exception. That's all I need to know.

Quote
I know that Fox has this "feeling" that Babs will be history. And of course everyone says that affairs always end


I wish I could convey to everyone how I got to this place. It's not just a feeling - I am absolutely convinced that they will not last.

At first, I thought in order for WH to do what he had done, Bab's had to be so much better than me and that I was such a failure and my M was not what I thought it was.

Months later, I was slowly working my way up. I read Harley's books, I read/posted/argued on this forum, I gathered all the outside sources I could gather. I watched stories unfold here, I watched WH behavior in his interactions with me, with his daughters, wish his mother, with his friends.

I got a feel for WHO Bab's was in HER marriage - how she treated those around her - husband, sisters, co-workers, son, etc.

It takes me a while to be convinced and to buy into things. But when I do, WHAM!, I've bought it.

I love to research - and to deal in facts.

Yes, it is about control - the more I know the more protected I am from the unknown. Because there is less that I don't know - KWIM?

Somehow - I've reached this place of complete peace in believing without a doubt that WH and Bab's will not last.

What does that mean for my M? Maybe nothing.....but maybe something. A M cannot survive with an active A. First order of business? An arsenal against the A. Destroy the A.

Then move on to the next order of business.

My D may be necessary for the destruction of the A. That's alright - we're both still living. A D is not the end of the world.

It could definately make recovery more difficult. WH is not going to know what hit him - it will be balls to the wall. If this is what he has decided he wants - then that is what he is going to get. But it will not be painless for him - I will take no prisoners.

I really wish I could help you guys get to that place of utter belief in the demise of the A.

You're still working through that anger at the injustice of it all. That's okay. Keep working.

I think I got to rambling there - sorry for the TJ. Hope something in there helped.

I'm convinced - find what you need to find to become convinced, too.

Fox

(Happy belated Thanksgiving to all!)
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggers - 11/26/07 09:46 PM
Words of wisdom from Her Foxiness!

Quote
I really wish I could help you guys get to that place of utter belief in the demise of the A.

You're still working through that anger at the injustice of it all. That's okay. Keep working.

It's a bit of both. The SCQ is very dependent. She always has been, and I think my losing the energy to feed it contributed to the rift in our marriage.

I'm pretty sure what has happened is that she has transferred this dependency to someone else. It will be just as unhealthy for that relationship as it was for ours, except that she has picked a lowlife scumbag to be dependent upon. Or rather, a lowlife scumbag lured her (intentional or not) into being dependent upon him.

She is so dependent and has her own feelings and needs and desires suppressed so deeply that I don't think she will ever wake up on her own and say "This isn't what I want--this is all a big mistake." It will take something from the POSOM. I suspect she will just keep doing whatever POSOM wants unless he really screws up or decides to go back to his wife.

Will it ever be a wholesome, fulfilling relationship? No. Will it end? I'm pretty sure it will.

That's not to say I wouldn't welcome someone saying "Oh, we've seen this exact situation before, and it played out exactly this way." I kinda think I'm in uncharted territory--I haven't seen examples of WWs coming back after long-term Plan Bs.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Triggers - 11/26/07 10:18 PM
Oh, I've seen this exact situation before, and it played out exactly this way.

Does that help? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, though, believer's story helped reinforce my current belief that the affair will end. Her H returned 4 1/2 years later.....after acting during that time as though believer didn't exist. (hope I'm remembering correctly).

Some of them are deeper than the others....it still happens, it just takes longer.

Quote
Will it end? I'm pretty sure it will.


Saying "I'm pretty sure" is like saying "I'll try". Don't go half way - BUY it. What'll it take to get you to BUY it?

Remember....you ain't special and neither is SCQ. Neither of you is any worse or any better than the rest of us. (meant in the kindest way)

Fox
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Triggers - 11/26/07 10:20 PM
Quote
I kinda think I'm in uncharted territory--I haven't seen examples of WWs coming back after long-term Plan Bs.


SOMEONE has to be first.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggers - 11/27/07 01:06 AM
Hmm. Do I have to buy it to keep doing what I'm doing?

I think that pretty sure for me = 95% confidence level. I'm 95% confident that the affair will end, but there's no telling when. If it's 5 years from now, how much good does that do me?
Posted By: LilSis Re: Triggers - 11/27/07 04:09 AM
You are good, Fox!

I lack that confidence. And I hear what sd is saying...that the affairees are so dependent upon one another, so enmeshed in each other's lives, that even if it ends emotionally (i.e.; they lose that lovin' feeling), that doesn't necessarily equate to an end to the relationship.

sd, in terms of what "mistake" you made and how you've "doomed" your kids....

Was SCQ an evil, selfish, vindictive, cruel, hurtful woman when you married her? I'm thinking no. Did she love you? I'm thinking yes.

The truth is, there was something broken way down deep. Somewhere that SHE couldn't (didn't want to?) see, let alone you. She probably did a fabulous job of hiding it, from herself and from you. Especially you.

When little hints of it began to show, you probably didn't see it for what it was, because it was so out of context. You saw the little cracks as minor crazing--you know like on pottery?--when in reality they were fractures, going all the way through.

And you love her. So you overlook the little cracks. You don't have any idea that they are fractures. And she was doing everything she could to make you believe that they were just little cracks.

So were you supposed to be a mind reader? Is that what you expect from yourself?

She deceived you. She took advantage of your love for her. Plain and simple. For goodness' sake, don't beat yourself up for not recognizing who you married. You didn't marry the person who was fractured and broken...she didn't LET you get to know that person.

The sad part is, you probably would have loved her all the more.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggers - 11/27/07 07:42 AM
You're right, of course, Sis. Revisionist history, hindsight--I did the best I could. We were completely in love and had a good marriage for a long time. It could have been better, but whose couldn't?

And she doesn't have a clue how broken she really is.

And yes, I would have tried to help her. ******, I'm still trying to help her.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Triggers - 11/27/07 01:14 PM
Wow... Sis, Guy.. I'm right there with you both.

Sis, that has got to be one of the best descriptions of how I feel about my wife right now. It may seem a little thing, but -thank you- for posting that.. it gives me some perspective.

Guy.. brother, I can tell the holidays are getting to you. I'm there too. Been doing a lot of thinking about the M, about the person I thought I married. I think it's that level of caring, and knowing that the person we love is a very broken person, needing someone.

I'm wondering.. when you look back at how you met your wife Guy.. was it something of a rescue story? Circumstances in her life.. you were a way out? Seems to me that many of the BS's here are rescuers in some way shape or form.. perhaps that's why we stand so well for our marriages when others would (and probably should) just walk away. We're trying to keep the one we care about from making a bad decision.. to rescue them from themselves.

From a personal standpoint, going forward, if WW doesn't come around before I am 'done'.. I'm going to make sure the next woman I allow to partake of my life is someone who can swim on their own just as good or better than I can.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Triggers - 11/27/07 04:50 PM
Quote
Hmm. Do I have to buy it to keep doing what I'm doing?


Nope, don't be a BUYER if you don't wanna be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, though, getting to that spot helped my emotions tremendously. The "competition" that was going on in my heart between Bab's and I ended. As BR has been saying, she didn't win and neither did WH.

You don't have to buy it.....it could just be something that would help you settle in a little more.

Quote
If it's 5 years from now, how much good does that do me?


Your children will no longer be exposed to that affair.

It isn't about just the recovery of your M, it's about recovery of YOU. (psssst - don't tell BR - but it would also help that in this instance, you would be RIGHT!)

I'm not counting on the WHEN either. Could be tomorrow could be 5 years from now - WH will at some point have to answer to himself about what he has done.

So will SCQ. She is human - even if she is weak.

Fox
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Triggers - 11/27/07 04:57 PM
Remember, boys, they aren't as weak as you may like to think. They were strong enough to leave you, weren't they? Why wouldn't they be strong enough to leave OM?

It may be just what is needed to shake them up enough to take a good long look at themselves.

They may have only PLAYED weak so they could carry less of the burden.

Keep in mind that I don't know your wives.....but it is something to think about.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggers - 11/28/07 07:06 PM
Quote
Seriously, though, getting to that spot helped my emotions tremendously. The "competition" that was going on in my heart between Bab's and I ended. As BR has been saying, she didn't win and neither did WH.

Ah. . . I get it--it's about confidence that the affair will end for my own emotional well-being rather than will the affair end in time to save the marriage.

I think I've gotten a pretty firm grip on that one. Their whole relationship is built on a lie. Even if it doesn't fall apart (which it almost certainly will), it will never be as good as what we had before and wouldn't approach what we could have in the future. They are both losers regardless.

And just for the sake of argument, let's say that they are able to make the relationship last and convince themselves that they are happy. Given their conduct and how the relationship was born, if the SCQ can actually do that (be happy), then she will have convinced me that she's not the kind of person I want in my life, anyway.

They *can't* win. I'm not competing with POSOM. I know he is scum.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Triggers - 11/28/07 09:03 PM
Quote
And just for the sake of argument,


Do we really want to go there? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As for the rest? You are right, you are right, you are right. (other than the "almost certainly" part.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggers - 11/28/07 09:29 PM
There are no easy answers for what I'm about to post. I've seen it discussed many times, and mostly I'm posting it because I want to get it out of my head.

This morning, DD4 and I were talking about family. My parents left this morning after 2 weeks here, so it was on her mind. She said something like "now I have new mommy--Grandma."

I said "Well, she's my mommy. She's your *grand*mother."

She said "Yes. But we do have a new member of our family. POSOM."

SDG: "He's not a member of our family."

DD4: "But Mommy loves him. She kisses him all the time."

Pause.

SDG: "POSOM is not a member of our family."

DD4: "No. But Mommy kisses him all the time."

I let it go, and for the most part the only bit that's eating at me is what I should have said. I think next time I will say something like

"You know, DD4, it makes me sad that Mommy loves POSOM. It's wrong for Mommy to love POSOM. I know Mommy doesn't think so, but I think POSOM is a bad man."

I can elaborate on any of these if necessary.

My IC would ask me "how does this help your children?" and would probably cringe at what the children tell me and shed tears for all the pain I go through, but in the end would encourage me to say nothing because the SCQ is the only mother they will ever have.

One of my responsibilities as a parent, however, is to teach my children right from wrong. The SCQ has clearly abdicated that responsibility. "They're not old enough to understand" is just an excuse.

At least that's how I'm thinking about it right now. Opinions welcome.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Triggers - 11/28/07 11:45 PM
SD,

OHHH Boy! I know where you are coming from. I don't know about a 4 year old, but I know my 6 year old understood perfectly well.

I told her that it is not ok or right for anyone to have a 'boyfriend/girlfriend", to kiss, hug, or any of that with another person while they are married to someone else. Period. End of story.

As you know, Drac tried to make it all 'ok' by saying we weren't married. Then, when that didn't work, he tried to say they weren't boyfriend/girlfriend,,,,, yet kissed, etc. in front of the kids.

It's your choice how detailed to get. You know your kids best. I am firmly in the camp of stating the truth. The above worked best for me. I personally didn't go into the HO being a bad person, , , but my kids knew without my saying it.

I am sending you the biggest hug ever!

{{{{{{{{{{{SD}}}}}}}}}}
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Triggers - 11/29/07 12:02 AM
I'm with Bugs - I remember reading how she handled it and admired how she was able to make a point without "blaming" too much or talking badly about OP (although they deserve it).

I agree with reiterating that you are married and that married people should not act that way.

Fox
Posted By: LilSis Re: Triggers - 11/29/07 02:59 AM
I'm just catching up, and it's late, and I'm sleepy...

But I cringed when I read that. How heart-breaking for both of you: you as SCQ's husband, and for sweet innocent little DD, whose experience of "family" is forever and irrevocably altered.

I'm so sorry. And I have no advice. I've not done very well in that department, and the boys are also older, and "get it."

Awww, sd. This really sucks. I hope you are able to come up with the perfect thing to say. And you may not want to wait until "next time." You may want to say something like, "You know, I was thinking about that talk we had the other morning...." I think that sends a message that what she says is really important to you, and that you were really listening...and lets her know that grown-ups don't always have all the answers right away, either.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Triggers - 11/29/07 02:04 PM
Gosh, I was faced with some very tough questions, and I still have no idea if anything that I said was RIGHT or not, but it was the truth. I answered according to my beliefs. I think you did a good job. Maybe you can think on it some more and elaborate at a later time, with DD.


((((guy))))
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggers - 11/29/07 05:31 PM
Thanks, guys. I implemented all your suggestions last night. I gently revisited the subject as I was laying down with them at bedtime, avoiding judging the OM. Kept it light.

DS8 (birthday was Monday) already knows the right and wrong aspects of what she's doing and didn't join the discussion. I think DD4 does as well.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Triggers - 11/29/07 05:39 PM
That's always rough man.

DS is starting to ask questions all the time, and making statements as to how Mommy and I aren't 'friends' anymore.. it's his word for people who care about eachother.

I've been trying to reassure him that I love his mommy very much, but that things will just be different from now on. We both love him and will always be his best friends.

It's a rough talk to have man, and my heart goes out to you.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggers - 11/29/07 06:51 PM
It's always tough having the talks and tough when they bring up uncomfortable topics. DS8 knows what they are and avoids them. DD4 doesn't get that yet.

It's just another one of the joys of infidelity.

Man. I really want to close my office door and take a quick nap.
Posted By: The_411 Re: Triggers - 11/29/07 08:56 PM
The joy of infidelity is like the joy of herpes

you get to keep it for life and when it seemingly goes away for awhile it always flares up.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Triggers - 11/29/07 09:49 PM
How about, "No sweetie. POSSUM isn't part of this family because he's not married to your mommy. He can't marry your mommy because she's still married to me. If mommy and me aren't married anymore and they do get married, then I will still be your daddy, your mommy will still be your mommy and POSSUM will just be the FREAK, uh I mean, person that mommy married. So he'll NEVER be a part of OUR family."
Posted By: chrisner Re: Triggers - 11/30/07 07:23 PM
Quote
POSSUM will just be the FREAK

I would go with "Lop eared, jug headed, camel faced, bug eating geek pit FREAK" but I guess it is a matter of preference.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggers - 12/02/07 04:21 AM
Major trigger.

It's split-squad weekend. I had DD4 last night and today and had a really good time. We didn't do anything major, but did a lot of individual stuff that's hard to do with DS8 around. Good day.

We hadn't worked out the exchange, so I texted the SCQ at around 5 pm saying I would bring DD4 over at 7:30 with a question mark. DD4 said she wanted me to take her over. SCQ replied later that she was out but thought it would work.

I checked my phone before we left and didn't see anything. We show up at 7:30, and her townhouse is dark. We walk up to the door anyway, and that's about when my phone rings. It's the SCQ, telling me they're not going to make it in time and did I get the pages. I say no, and we're standing out in front of her place.

In the mean time, DD4 goes up to the door and opens it. It's unlocked. I start thinking that maybe we'll just wait inside until she shows up, and then I hear something from inside the SCQ's place. It's one of POSOM's kids, and POSOM is laying on her couch in the dark. He says "The SCQ's not here."

I get DD4 and close the door. Then I open it, stick my head back in and say "How's OMW?" He responds "What are you doing here?" but I am already leaving. SCQ tells me on the phone that I could just leave DD4 there. I respond "No f'n way am I going to leave her with him." She says something about picking her up and I hang up.

DD4 and I come back over to my house. DD4 is in tears when we get here, saying she doesn't want to go over to Mommy's. She has been saying this all day, not just because of me getting upset. I let her call the SCQ on the phone to tell her this.

I had been planning to actually talk to the SCQ about DD4's cough, but not now. I carefully position DD4's stuff out on the sidewalk making it clear I have no interest in seeing the SCQ.

DS8 gets home, and now he tells me that he spent his split-squad day with OM's two daughters (aged 2 and 4). Nice.

Later I recall that POSOM's friend died last weekend. I'm just as happy that I didn't say "Too bad about your friend. Isn't karma a ******?" DS8 tells me that POSOM was at the funeral today (maybe that's why the SCQ had his kids).

Okay. . . going to play with DS8 now. I don't think I will let this bother me too much.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Triggers - 12/02/07 05:54 AM
If you can successfully bounce back from that, good for you. You are right...huge trigger. Poor DD. Once again, SCQ is demonstrating a real knack for being thoughtless and careless.

Do you think she did it on purpose, i.e.; "can't you see how absurd this stupid weekend arrangement is? You can't? Oh, oops...I'll let POSOM greet our daughter, since it's inconvenient for me to live by this schedule that you insist upon."

It was so kind of you to ask after Mrs. POSOM.

I bet DS LOVED being with 2 and 4 y-o girls today. At least he'll get some good dad time tomorrow.

Lesson for today: Make pick-up/drop-off plans crystal clear prior to the weekend.

Sorry about this, sd. Yuck and triple yuck.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggers - 12/02/07 06:25 AM
Thanks, Sis. Bouncing back okay so far--been building LEGOs and playing Playstation with DS8. Probably will medicate to sleep, but I'm going to shake it off quickly. I'm in such a better place than they are.

I don't think it was intentional. She's just that late. And I saw the two TMs when I got home. I expect she feels bad about it, but not so much as to apologize, not that I really want her to.

I probably shouldn't have had DD4 call the SCQ, but she really had told me like 6 times today that she didn't want to go over to the other place. And she wanted to talk about how long she was going to have to be there. And finally it was too much.

Okay...going to go read with the boy.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Triggers - 12/02/07 02:38 PM
SD,

Sorry to hear how it went yesterday with all of that. Grrr! Intentional or not on her part, it had to really hurt.

Yet, you 'sound' like you are doing Ok. Are you?

I am glad that you had DS with you after to help keep focused on other things.

{{{SD}}}
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggers - 12/03/07 06:46 AM
You know, I am doing well. This only bothers me in the empty moments, like trying to go to sleep and waking up, and even those weren't too bad.

Today was a good day with DS8. We did pretty much what he wanted to do all day long. Watched some football, played catch in front of the house, went to the park for more catch and soccer, shopped for his sister, ate at his favorite place, IHOP.

My life is so much better than that of the infidels, and it's only going to get better. Things are only going to get worse for them.

I feel terrible for my kids, but it's not something I can control. DS8 had to share his room with POSOM's daughters the other night. He says they woke him up earlier than he wanted (it was his way of telling me that it had happened). When I asked if he wanted them to sleep in his room (he and DD4 share a room), the answer was an emphatic no.

Aside from the stray dark fantasy aimed at POSOM (like telling his daughters "Hi girls. Where's your mommy? Don't you miss her?"), I think I'm okay.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggers - 12/05/07 07:37 AM
Still doing well. Two productive days at work, okay at home by myself--still trying to keep the kitten entertained enough so that she doesn't attack me all the time.

I went grocery shopping tonight, and damned if they didn't have pre-made Snickerdoodle dough at Ralph's Pretty Good Grocery.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Triggers - 12/05/07 01:38 PM
You are killin me with the dough. You now KNOW my love of the snickerdoodle and taunt me with your words of scrumtrilescent premade dough.

Quote
still trying to keep the kitten entertained enough so that she doesn't attack me all the time.



Yeah, that's what PWC said...
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Triggers - 12/05/07 02:35 PM
LMAO>...you are on a roll this morning SL...

Watch out for those kittens! Course, I think that my dog's the same way!!!! LOL

Have a great one guys!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: Triggers - 12/05/07 02:42 PM
SD,

A little secret on keeping the kitten from attacking.... get another kitten. They will play with each other. It really has helped in our house. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Now we just have two kittens to attack the christmas tree when it goes up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I wonder how many decorations will become casualties.

Still
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Triggers - 12/05/07 02:54 PM
My cats used to eat the tensil, and that is an odd sight when you are cleaning the litter box (not to mention dangerous). I stopped using tensil for that reason alone. My cat likes to play with the ornaments on the lower brances, so I don't hang anything really valuable down there.

We did have a couple occassions of our cats CLIMBING the tree!

And, Still is right (Hi Still!), if you have two kitties, they tend to keep eachother occupied.
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: Triggers - 12/05/07 03:49 PM
Hi Silent,

TJ.... just wante d to let you know how well you are doing. Someday I hope to be in the same shoes...speaking of shoes have you found ant yo match your dress?

JF done.

Still
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Triggers - 12/05/07 03:55 PM
TJ going on...

I found a lovely pair of shoes, but am unsure. I will probably hit a store this weekend just to be sure.

About hoping to be IN my shoes; I would hope to be in sexymamabears shoes. She did it right. Her FWH (tst) is doing it right. They are following MB and finding it much easier to learn the necessary communication, under strict guidance.

My M recovery will probably take lots more time. I'm not thrilled with this, but it is what it is...

TJ over, AGAIN.
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: Triggers - 12/05/07 04:02 PM
Silent,

You are right... right now I would like to be in some sort of recovery. But SMB is the way to go if it ever happens to me.

Still
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggers - 12/05/07 05:43 PM
Quote
Yeah, that's what PWC said...

Funny! If only that were my problem.

The shoes--are they the ones you linked? Just curious.

I've had two cats before. I think you get a different relationship with your cat(s) depending upon whether you have one or two. I like the relationship I have--it's just that she has so much energy!

Thanks for stopping by, Still. Haven't seen you around for a while.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Triggers - 12/05/07 05:48 PM
Quote
My cats used to eat the tensil

We had a cat that would eat the tinsil then would do one of those classic cat freak out sessions when it was hanging out the wrong end.

I think that was the same cat who once horked up a really nasty hairball into one of Wayzilla's dress heels.

Good Cat!
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Triggers - 12/05/07 06:00 PM
Quote
We had a cat that would eat the tinsil then would do one of those classic cat freak out sessions when it was hanging out the wrong end.


OMG! The image that creates! hahaha!

Fox
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Triggers - 12/05/07 06:07 PM
I had forgotten about the Lambada with the tinsil. That is a joy to watch.
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: Triggers - 12/05/07 07:53 PM
SD.

I have been around just keeping updated on everyone else. Have been thinking of updating my thread.

Just so much to say... well you know how it is.

Still
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggers - 12/05/07 08:43 PM
Quote
I had forgotten about the Lambada with the tinsil. That is a joy to watch.

Less joy to clean up after.

I guess that's one I'll have to get used to. We had an unspoken division of labor. I was in charge of insect [spider] control. The SCQ was in charge of irregular bodily emissions (including kids projectile vomiting).

I'm told that you get used to it, and that if you have to throw up yourself in order to be able to clean it up, well, that's okay, too.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Triggers - 12/05/07 08:58 PM
My freezer in the garage got unplugged a couple weeks ago and by the time I found out, it was hideous. There was about an inch of stinking goo in the bottom and I literally had to control my gag reflex as I washed it out in the driveway. Yuck!

Well at least DD19.975 is accountable for her own flying phlegms now.

The glorious single life!
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Triggers - 12/05/07 10:28 PM
Quote
I'm told that you get used to it, and that if you have to throw up yourself in order to be able to clean it up, well, that's okay, too


BLAHAHAHHAHAHHA!!!! I'm in that boat with cha'! LOl

Chris, I feel you on that one too! That was the largest things I ever saw moving around! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Probably the only thing in life that I can NOT handle! insect, bugs, snakes, etc...I'm cool! YUCK!
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Triggers - 12/06/07 02:11 AM
chrisner, that makes two disgusting stories you've posted tonight; first the one on Foxy's thread and now the refrigerator nastiness. You are grossing me out! Gag me with a spoon! (Do the girlies still talk like that out your way, guy?)
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggers - 12/06/07 02:22 AM
Can't answer. I'm too busy barfing out.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Triggers - 12/06/07 06:29 AM
I got cranky this afternoon. Probably it's a touch of sleep deprivation. Or maybe two hours at the dentist.

Tomorrow I turn 40. I *had* been having a bit of fun speculating on whether the SCQ would acknowledge it at all. But not the way that sounds. Not in the desperate-for-some-sign-of-caring way, but rather the what-is-that-curious-thing-over-there-and-what-will-it-do way. Will she have helped the kids shop for me? Will she actually say something?

Anyway, it was fun for a while, but with the mood shift, all I want to say to her is Go ***** yourself.

I'm celebrating by having lunch with a bunch of former colleagues tomorrow, doing a happy hour on Friday with neighbors, and the kids and I will go out for dinner tomorrow and maybe put up and decorate the tree. And maybe I'll work in a massage. Plus, if the weather is good, I'm going to do the paragliding thing on Saturday.

Wait, that sounds pretty good to me. Why am I cranky?
Posted By: Bugsmom Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/06/07 11:04 AM

****HAPPY BIRTHDAY*******

The BIG 4-0??!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Just a number,,,,,right?! Lol!


What time is paragliding scheduled????!!!!

Celebrate YOU for the day and the weekend!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/06/07 11:33 AM
Happy Birthday sdguy, thank goodness you are older than me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I don't turn 40 til June!

This is YOUR day, your milestone...do not ruin it by making it about a WS. You are a wonderful man, with wonderful children, who should be proud of his accomplishlments.

Don't give her this power sdguy, you deserve better.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/06/07 01:52 PM
ROCKIN, Guy! Happy Pre Birthday to you!

It sounds like you've got lots of fun coming your way, which is nice! Good for you not thinking on the SCQ too much; it's your day.

Judging from what you posted, you sound like one blessed man.

Oh, and I don't turn 40, until the year 2012 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/06/07 07:18 PM
Thanks, All.

I think maybe I've been down because this seems like one of those Significant Days, like I should make some kind of decision about something. But I'm going to push that away (really not too hard) and enjoy the day.

A co-worker made me a big plate of brownies (with peanut butter). Yum.

Quote
Just a number,,,,,right?!

Yeah, but I've noticed over the past week or so that I feel more physically, um, challenged? Maybe just psychosomatic. Instead of old and broken down, I think I will refer to myself as weathered and broken in.

Quote
and I don't turn 40, until the year 2012

Well. . . I mean . . . but I . . . Oh, yeah?

Bugs, the paragliding is not scheduled. You just show up at the glider port, and it's first come, first serve. It depends upon the weather--the winds have to be right, but they are most days. I'm hoping it's extra good for Saturday, but they're talking about a storm coming in, so maybe not. I told my parents I was planning to do this, and my mom liked the idea enough that they're giving it to me for a present (and has threatened to do it herself when they come back). Don't tell SL, but I'm going to get even for her age crack by posting some pictures once I've done it. I live in a beautiful place.

I am blessed.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/06/07 07:21 PM
You stinker! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Have loads of fun! You have worked really hard this year, and deserve this treat.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/06/07 07:24 PM
Have a great birthday amigo!
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/06/07 07:41 PM
Hey SDBro... have a -great- birthday.. you deserve to enjoy a whole weekend of it.

I'll crack a frosty one for you tomorrow.. good stuff.. maybe if I ever get out your way I'll bring you a case of this local microbrew.

If my situation doesn't change I am seriously considering doing the cross-country roadtrip I've always wanted to do when I get the new car.. the week after my D is final.. whenever that is... if it gets that far.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/07/07 02:18 AM
Well, hey! I almost missed it! I hope you have a great, great day tomorrow. You are beating me to the punch by about two months, so I've got my eye on you to see how well you fare.

Actually, I like to think that my 40s will be the best decade yet.

The 30s weren't all that great, in retrospect. There were poopy diapers and potty training, working life around naptimes, my dad's cancer, and then all of this to wrap it all up.

Things can only get better.

So maybe we can view it as a GOOD milestone...the turn in the road, a new life full of possibilities, a fresh start.

This is what I wish for you.

Happy Birthday.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/07/07 03:26 AM
SD,

Quote
I am blessed.


It feels good to say that, doesn't it? And it's even bette that you FEEL it, BELIEVE it, an KNOW it!

When I turned 40, I decided my description of it is

"Young enough, smart enough, and well off enough to do whatever I want to do,,,,,and finally Old enough to know better sometimes!! "

OR

"Like a fine wine,,,well blended, full bodied, and aged to a smooth perfection"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/07/07 07:10 AM
Lunch was great with my old friends. My company had a mass layoff a couple of years ago, and I look forward to any occasion to get together with former co-workers. Today was no exception.

I sneaked out of work in the afternoon to get a massage.

Then picked up the kids after work. Somewhat-tired, borderline-cranky DD4 was ready to pitch a fit over not wanting to go to the kid-friendly middle-of-the-road restaurant, so we went to a less kid-friendly (and better) one. She acknowledged that it was my choice, but "it's not *fair* that you don't want to go to McDonalds." Or IHOP.

DD$ is "done" after two bites of pasta. DS8 is laying down on the booth seat. It's only beer and wine--no margaritas. DD4 has to go to the bathroom (only once, mercifully). I'm the only non-coupled guy in this place, right? And I'm the one with two kids? Wait, if dessert is on the line, maybe I want some more pasta. Was that enough to get dessert (could you say that a little louder, please? there might have been someone who didn't hear you.)? What the ******, it's my birthday, right? I make the rules. It was enough to get dessert.

Home in time for homework. Two weeks for this project, and this is what you have? No, I told you yesterday I wasn't going to fight with you over this. It's your homework. And showers. And a little bit of time to play Barbies. And read to the kids before bed.

It's all good.

Now in my lap is a purring cat who wants to know why I am not petting her with *both* hands.

One of my presents today was a picture of the 'thankful chain' that my brother's family put together. I looked closely and saw names I recognized, like SilentLucidity. And BrambleRose. LilSis. Chrisner. JamesUs. Bugsmom. Fox. Rin.

You guys all mean a lot to me. The support (and occasional beatings) I get here is one more of my many blessings.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/07/07 11:35 AM
Ah SD,,,


I know the restaurant routine you describe above pretty well! I did giggle,,having been there and done that. As a matter of fact, I remember specifically what I asked for on my 39th birthday from Drac - I wanted to go to a restaurant that didn't have a Kid's Menu! LOL!

Remember to look for your own name on that chain,,,you have learned how to be your Own Blessing, too! Not to mention the fact that YOU give so well here to others, just as much as you give.

Glad you had fun with the co-workers and MAH-LE-OUS job on getting yourself that massage!!!


{{{SD}}}
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/07/07 01:02 PM
Quote
Remember to look for your own name on that chain,,,you have learned how to be your Own Blessing, too! Not to mention the fact that YOU give so well here to others, just as much as you give.

AMEN to this.. I'm right there with Bugs.

You know.. to a lot of people those struggles with getting the kids to eat dinner.. plying them with dessert.. the homework talk..

For a lot of parents out there... even good parents and decent people... they look on those conversations with frustration.

You know, one of those blessings we get.. going through all that we're going through, is that we place enormous value even on -those- moments.. and come out the other side, smiling and proud that we're doing our part to shape these little pieces of us that are going to take these lessons, knowledge, compassion, love, and concern with them into the world and pass it on to their kids... In some ways it makes us lucky that we can now -truly- appreciate the moments most parents take for granted.

Every moment in our lives has so much more meaning now.. good, bad, or indifferent.

Happy birthday Guy.. you are truly blessed, as is everyone touched by your life.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/07/07 01:50 PM
Ahhhh, a nice relaxing night out with the kids! Priceless.

You know, James hit the nail on the head--good AIM!! Nearly every moment I have now, I see value, good, fun, blessing. Even when I'm stressed to the gills arguing over DS staying in his seat instead of crawling beneath the table to pick up the crayon that he dropped while coloring his place mat (deep breath), I laugh a little.

I appreciate a WHOLE lot more than ever before. You would have thought that the death of my mother would have taught me that. NO SIREE BOB--seems infidelity taught me that. Strange, indeed.

I am blessed to know all of you folks!
Posted By: chrisner Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/07/07 03:40 PM
Quote
One of my presents today was a picture of the 'thankful chain' that my brother's family put together. I looked closely and saw names I recognized, like SilentLucidity. And BrambleRose. LilSis. Chrisner. JamesUs. Bugsmom. Fox. Rin.

You guys all mean a lot to me. The support (and occasional beatings) I get here is one more of my many blessings.

The beatings are the most fun!

Glad you had a good day SD. Could you imagine a day like it a year ago?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/07/07 08:30 PM
Crayons under the table. Forgot to include that one, but it's a constant.

Now that I think about it, there should be a whole day for that in The Book.

Just Accept that restaurant crayons *will* roll off the table. Do You want to crawl around under the table to find them? Surrender to the fact that your children will take great delight in retrieving them. Yes, it's dirty down there, but Let Go of your compulsive cleanliness. Exposure to some dirt will enhance their immune system. Set a time limit.

Needs more buzzwords, like "preconceived notions," but I really ought to do some work.
Posted By: coachswife Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/07/07 09:37 PM
Happy Birthday!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/08/07 01:22 AM
Thanks, Coachswife. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/08/07 06:40 AM
Too much wine at the neighborhood celebration for me.

They got me presents. I am awed. I am so lucky.

Until tomorrow morning. My cat wants to know where I have been.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/08/07 01:52 PM
SD,

Great report on the evening! So glad you had a good time.

BTW - glad you made it home ok. Cat sent me a private message asking where you were! Said something about shredding your pillow if you stayed out much longer!! LOL!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/08/07 11:29 PM
The fun has come to a crashing halt, and not just because of too much wine.

I've been spending most of the day on my couch because of, um, too much wine and not enough food last night. My doorbell rings. I think about not answering, but I go to the door, and DS8 is there.

I say "What's up?" and he says he needs a sweatshirt. There is one close to the door, so I "here's one" and hand it to him. We both say see you tomorrow, and he leaves. In a moment of weakness, I look to see who is in the car, but it is just the three of them.

A few minutes later, my cell phone buzzes. Two text messages. One from earlier today asking me to leave a sweatshirt for him outside in a plastic bag or else reply if I could not. The second one she had just sent. It said "Thanks for nothing."

Then I see that she has emailed me earlier in the day.

Quote
I will need to get some Christmas ornaments from the house. How do you want to do this?
I suggest you put them in the garage and make piles to agree on before actually dividing them, ones for your house, ones for my house, and ones to be discussed if there are any. I could come by the garage when you are not there if that is needed to look at what you divided if you want to make the initial piles. If there is other Christmas decorations that need to be divided we could do it at the same time.

I'm not sure how to handle this. Obviously, no response about the sweatshirt. I could explain about not having seen the TM but don't really see any point.

And the ornaments. . . my inclination is to just ignore it and put them up.

But I'm not sure. Opinions sought.
Posted By: believer Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/08/07 11:58 PM
"I suggest you put them in the garage and make piles to agree on before actually dividing them, ones for your house, ones for my house, and ones to be discussed if there are any. I could come by the garage when you are not there if that is needed to look at what you divided if you want to make the initial piles. If there is other Christmas decorations that need to be divided we could do it at the same time."

Gosh, more thought involved in dividing the Christmas ornaments, than dividing the family............

How important are they to you?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/09/07 02:20 AM

Oh, poor WS,,,,,,having to go without her Christmas deocrations because SD didn't just Hop to It when She finally decided she wanted them??

As Believer said, sounds like she gave that more thought than splitting up her family.

My 2 cents,,, for what it's worth. If there are any decorations that were 'hers' when she came into the marriage, put in a box and set outside for her on the next exchange. ALL other decorations - are FAMILY decorations and stay with the family.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/09/07 03:01 AM
Some of them are quite important to me. Others, not so much.

Quote
My 2 cents,,, for what it's worth. If there are any decorations that were 'hers' when she came into the marriage, put in a box and set outside for her on the next exchange. ALL other decorations - are FAMILY decorations and stay with the family.

That's where I got to. I will probably give her the ones I don't like, too. There will be no dialog about it.

Thanks for the thoughts.
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/09/07 06:57 AM
AH, all the crap we have to go through with this stuff...

for what?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/09/07 08:50 PM
Expecting kids at noon. Well, that's when they're supposed to be here, but I know that they will be late, because the SCQ can't do anything on time. At about 12:30, I look at my cell phone.

TM from the SCQ at 10:30 saying that she is at Aunt's in LA with parents, and is it okay if the kids aren't back at noon.

So, it's fine that she spent some extra time with her relatives, but the not telling me ahead of time when it was completely predictable is annoying. Schedule it and stick to the schedule. The chronic lateness is really, really annoying. It might not be so if there were any hint of apology, but she is largely incapable of that.

I think I need to say something about it, but there is no way to do so without making her defensive.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/10/07 11:37 AM
SD,

She's trying to push your buttons with being late all of the time. She's likely looking to get an angry outburst from you. Don't fall for it.

However, there is nothing wrong with a factual reminder about the schedule if it's now a habitual thing. Who cares how she feels? I mean, really? You don't have to sit by and accept her disrespecting you, your time, and especially your time with the kids.

Look back. How many times recently has she been late? Step back from a neutral perspective and see if it's been frequent enough to say something. If you think it has been, then do so. Factual. To the point.

{{SD}}
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/10/07 01:27 PM
From your posts, I would say SCQ is habitually late. I don't believe in coming at her guns a blazin, but I do believe in stating that you expect the children back at the appropriate time.

It's a consequence for her. Now, if I'm solely thinking of the kids, I would say that them hanging out with their family is good for them, but as a parent, I would hate to foster the SCQ's inconsistent scheduling.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/10/07 03:19 PM
Knee jerk thoughts from Denver:

Don't give an inch on the schedule. Down the road you will regret it.

On Christmas decorations: Keep everything from your family, cherry pick your favorites and pack all the rest for SCQ. Then take the kids Christmas decoration and ornament shopping. Let them pick a few ornaments for their tree.

Wayzilla took everything and now tells DD19.991 that she does not feel Christmassy and is not going to decorate. Our place looks nice. Almost everything is new and it does feel Christmassy at our home.

Poor widdle waywards.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/10/07 06:15 PM
Thanks for the thoughts. I shook off the frustration and had a good day with the kids.

The tree was up and the ornaments were out, and they made for them like a beeline. So as the ornaments came out of the box, I pulled a few aside (pretty much what you suggested, Bugs and Chris), sacked them up for her, and sent them to daycare today. I expect the selection will not be what she had in mind (not sure, actually), but I wonder whether she will have the stones to complain about it.

I like the idea of taking the kids ornament shopping.

So here's one. Presents from kids to WSs. Where are we with that? I'm feeling like I should help the kids get her something. It won't happen if I don't. She helped the kids buy me a birthday present. Sis, Bugs, what are you guys doing?
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/10/07 09:11 PM
You are in Plan B.

No presents for WS. You could ask your mother to help the kids if you think its important for them to give a gift.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/11/07 04:43 AM
The great ornament debate:

Quote
Nice start to the dividing of ornaments but there should be more to be done. All of the gold and silver stars and snow flakes are mine and there is more to be decided and you just don't get to decide who gets what. A counter suggestion to the one I sent would have been more appropriate than you sending a bag of ornaments that you don't want to T's. Make a counter suggestion to dividing the ornaments something that doesn't involve you deciding everything. This too can be a court order if you want to spend even more money.

No response?

Or maybe "The family ornaments are on the tree in our family home."

maybe with "it can be finalized later."
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/11/07 04:50 AM
Quote
something that doesn't involve you deciding everything.

You mean like your deciding to break up our family?
Posted By: believer Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/11/07 04:55 AM
I opt for a court order.

Oops, no wonder I'm divorced.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/11/07 05:42 AM
*grin*

So, maybe I'm making too big a deal out of this. The stars to which she refers were given to her by my mother over the years. She gave them to the SCQ and my brother's wife every year. I could easily make an argument that they were given to her son's wife rather than the SCQ, but I could also give in and send them over if anyone thinks that's a good idea.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/11/07 05:48 AM
I vote for giving them to her.

They'll be a reminder of you and past Christmas'.

~ Marsh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/11/07 07:05 AM
Thanks, Marsh.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/11/07 10:56 AM
What about crickets?

Does this warrant a response? I mean, really, is she going to go to a judge, stomp her foot, and say, "I want those stars!!!" Or even make a big deal about it to the attorney?

Perhaps you should ask your mother what she would prefer, just to be safe, because SCQ would look pretty ridiculous making a big deal about a gift from YOUR mother.

Just askin'.

(Maybe she thinks you are so old and senile that you won't remember where the ornaments came from.)
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/11/07 11:59 AM
Let her sit for a bit on this. No need for an immediate response. She doesn't dictate, but she sure is trying REALLY hard,,,,telling you how to go about the ornaments and setting her own schedule. etc.

She's realizing SHE is not in control and goodness, she really doesn't like it. Too bad.

Frankly, I'd give her the silly stars,,,,eventually. I like the idea of letting her know that the kids put the ornaments on the FAMILY tree. Isn't Christmas really supposed to be mostly about the kids?? You are doing your best to keep as much of their lives as 'normal' as possible. This includes keeping whatever traditions you can as 'normal' as you can for them. This includes them being able to have the same things, like ornaments, for the tree.

Regarding the presents, I've chosen to help the kids with their gifts. I always have and they expect it. It would hurt THEM for me to do otherwise. However, my normal searching for just the right thing isn't happening,,,,, and if they find something they like for him at the Dollar Store, then that is what they are getting him.

JMHO
Posted By: chrisner Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/11/07 03:40 PM
Pack it all up and just give it to her. Start all over again with new stuff that the kids can help you pick out. Reclaim Christmas for good.

Years from now she will only see what she lost when she puts out her little stars.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/11/07 05:41 PM
Morning, all!

You didn't ask me, sdguy, but in regards to gifts to SCQ - I am giving money to DDs so they can choose a gift for WH, just as I did for them last year.

It's more about THEM then it is about HIM. They would feel badly if they didn't give him anything.

Like Bugs, I'm not helping and giving careful thought to it. I'm giving them a dollar limit, they can spend it all or they can spend a little. What they find is up to them.

I don't have a strong opinion about the ornaments. If they are important to YOU, keep them. If not, ship them off.

You're right, your mother gave them to sdguy's wife, not SCQ.

Your call, neither one is WRONG.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/11/07 06:23 PM
I thought of you about gifts, but your girls are in a different age zone than my kids. I haven't quite figured that one out yet.

With the ornaments, I boxed up the ones in question and dropped them off at day-care on my way into work this morning. This weekend, I will take the kids ornament shopping.

I'm wondering about my motivations. They are somewhat important to me but also something that I can let go of. I think the fact that she wanted them and had the nerve to ask for them made me resist. Not healthy.

What would Jennifer have told me? I think Jennifer would have told me to go along with what the SCQ suggested--laying them out in the garage and let the SCQ choose some. So long as I could do it without getting massively triggered, which is what happens when I think about it too much. So I'm going to let it go and get about my day.

Thanks to all for the suggestions and thoughts!
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/11/07 06:37 PM
Yup, it is a big age difference between my girls and your kiddos. My thoughts if mine were 4 and 7 could be much different than they are now.

What have you done in the past? Did you buy presents for SCQ without the kids and then just sign the card including their names or were they an actual part of the gift giving?

If they were an actual part of the gift giving and would have feelings of loss over not doing it this year, then I say do it for them. If they were never a part of it and won't realize it wasn't done this year, then don't do it.

Sounds like you are working through the ornament deal. I won't say alot about that. As you can probably tell I have a quick and deadly response to anyone TAKING from me. If you can let them go without feeling as though they were TAKEN, then good for you.

I've tried to remember the phrase "don't sweat the small stuff". I'm not always successful, but I'm working on it. My fear is that the "small stuff" now will be "big stuff" later. But those are my own issues.....your working through things well. I'm proud of you.

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/11/07 06:48 PM
Right or wrong I had a pretty simple tactic; If Wayzilla wanted it I no longer had any value in it and off to Mount Crapwayward in the garage it went. It worked out fine.

I think she thought the separation of property would take several meetings and lots of serious discussion. Wrong.

I have replaced the artwork and home decor with things that I like and reflect my taste. I like it a lot better.

And when she looks around bulldozer cottage now she sees all OUR stuff. Much of it was given to her as gifts from my Mother and I. I see it as a long and lasting reminder of what she has really lost.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/11/07 07:02 PM
Thanks, Fox.

Quote
As you can probably tell I have a quick and deadly response to anyone TAKING from me.

Yeah, your response to me wasn't quite what I expected from you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You nailed it, though--it's about feeling like they are being TAKEN from me, and I'm letting that go. I suspect that you and I have the same reaction to be Told what to do.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/11/07 08:52 PM
That's a good tactic, chris. I'm glad it worked for you. I think I'd be better at it if I could afford to replace whatever he takes.

As it is, whatever WH takes, I've lost and there is just empty space.

I'd love to hand things over and be able to replace it with something new or better.

Quote
Yeah, your response to me wasn't quite what I expected from you.


HEY!!! You don't have EXPECTATIONS of me do you? I don't think we are supposed to have expectations of other people, isn't that right? Hmmm......

You better drink more kool-aid. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Quote
I suspect that you and I have the same reaction to be Told what to do.


I don't know what you're talking about. (insert ANGEL icon here)

I just follow along and do what I'm told. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Fox
Posted By: Dupree Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/11/07 09:43 PM
Hi Sdguy...Just wanted to let you know I was thinking about you. I obviously have no advice to give because I can't seem to get Plan B right. Wanted to tell you I got an appt with Jennifer this week. I'm looking forward to it and getting some personaql advice on my situation. Got the idea from you. Thanks!!!!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/11/07 09:51 PM
Heh. I was posting over on your thread while you were here.

Jennifer is great. I'll dig up what she told me about triggers. It's buried somewhere in my thread. It's why I have Remember to breathe in my sig line.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 12:07 AM
Quote
Who else will keep me in line? Fox?



THHHHHWWWWAAAAAAAAACCCCCKKKKK!!!!!!

How's that for keeping you in line? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Fox

ETA: And just for the record, old fogey, I don't turn 40 until 2014. Nanananabooboo!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 12:12 AM
Oh, you saw that, did you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ETA: I thought that one might be worth at least a *snort* from BR if she happens to stray back.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 12:16 AM
Um, yeah. And I took at as a coax (challenge?) to "do the right thing" and post a goodbye myself.

Nice nudge.

Fox
Posted By: LilSis Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 12:22 AM
You must have overlooked my remark the other day, sd...or did you FORGET...

or maybe your eyes are going bad....

(I've got two months to milk this for all it's worth)

2014. Jeez.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 12:35 AM
Quote
Nice nudge.

It was really more about trying to tweak BR. I'm not sure why, but I really enjoy that. I'll miss it.

Of course, I like teasing you, too. It's fun stuff (so long as BR isn't watching us too closely with those darn eyes in the back of her head).

Did you say something, Sis? You're going to heave to speak into the earhorn. You young sassy whippersnappers.

Say, Sis, send me an email if you're so inclined. sdguy0038@yahoo.com I've got some really good dirt on Fox that I don't want her to see.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 12:44 AM
Looks like I've missed yet another exciting day in the life of SCQ! What a maroon!

Anywho, sounds like you are getting some good advice. I like Chrisner's slant; start anew. Some of those ornaments that you want to keep could just be lovely little shiny, dangling TRIGGERS for you. Meh, to each his own.

Oh, and another friendly reminder, old man, 2012.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 04:43 AM
Sheesh, the rampant age discrimination. I may have to complain to the moderators and get this thread locked. Chrisner (way older than me), how can you tolerate this kind of abuse?

The twinge in my shoulder has now gone chronic. It started as an interesting muscle tweak maybe six weeks ago. Now it hurts most of the time. I'm wondering whether I did something to my rotator cuff throwing fly balls to DD8. I skipped yoga for the second week in a row in order to rest it. I'm supposed to meet with a physical therapist tomorrow.

And to top it off, I just realized that I'm not in any of the desirable demographics anymore (I guess that one slipped past me a while ago). No one wants to advertise to me, or cater to me, or any of that stuff (males aged 18-34 was the one I heard on NPR tonight).

Two months. 2012. 2014--Fox isn't even old enough to be president.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 11:56 AM
SD,

Well, I shouldn't say anything about your age, as I am 'slightly' older,,,,,,,,,,,,but I will anyway!

Seems your shoulder isn't the ONLY thing that's starting to go. I am suspicious about your mind OR perhaps it's refusal to accept what "is",,,,,,, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

What is making me think this, you ask?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

You haven't updated your Sig line to reflect your TRUE age!! LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 01:09 PM
2016 here.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well.. probably best to get that shoulder looked at. Could be arthritis.. at your age, one can never be too careful.


I'll be keeping you in my prayers.. they say the hips are soon to follow.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 01:13 PM
Quote
Could be arthritis.. at your age


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Good one.
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 02:45 PM
BUGS:
Quote
Well, I shouldn't say anything about your age, as I am 'slightly' older

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> NO WAY!!!! You ARE A TRUE GODDESS and ANGEL! ( That's a compliment, BTW!!!!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Quote
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Could be arthritis.. at your age


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

BLAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAA!!

Yeah, SD, you need to get that checked out!!!! LMAO

(That was AWESOME!!!!)
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 03:28 PM
Quote
I've got some really good dirt on Fox that I don't want her to see.


Good thing I know where that shovel is. Yer so old you forgot where ya left it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Quote
It was really more about trying to tweak BR.


Yup, I think referring to me will do it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 03:32 PM
Strivn,

How come "Stay" is a recovery song for you? Everytime that song comes on the radio I want to write a letter to Sugarland and tell them off.

Hmmmmph! Poor little OW whining and b!tching and moaning that her married man won't stay with her - when his wife calls, he answers and returns to her - leaving the OW alone.
One of the lyrics is something like "I give my best to you, why does she get the best of you?"

Grrr......sorry. Trigger.

How'd you make a positive spin on it?

Fox
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 04:59 PM
Well, it reminds me of the days that I was weak and how I learned to be strong...I guess it's my tale of PERSONAL recovery...

I also took her as the wife, flipped it I guess, she's the one wearing the wedding ring in the video...she tells her WH to Stay...be with the OW b/c I don't need you anymore...

in my mind, the wife gives the best of herself and the OW gets the best b/c that's the imagine that the WS gives...

So, you think that it's the OW singing, but I think that it's the Wife singing...like I said I took it that way b/c she's singing and wearing the wedding ring!

I hope that this helps...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 05:05 PM
Sore shoulder . . . maybe arthritis . . . gotta change my sig line . . . misplaced the shovel again . . . sore shoulder . . . repeating myself . . . .

For you youngsters out there, I recommend that you Plan B your 40th birthday.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 05:29 PM
Quote
For you youngsters out there, I recommend that you Plan B your 40th birthday.

I'll remember your wisdom always grandpa <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 06:51 PM
Rin,

I never saw the video - so you're a step ahead of me there. I looked on the CMT website and this was written about it: "In her case, she sings of being “the other woman” and tired of the pain her situation brings. "

If it means something different to you - then go for it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's just my own little trigger.

Fox

Sorry for TJ, sdguy.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 06:53 PM
So the physical therapist tells me my shoulder hurts because I am old and broken down and too tall working down low and not enough upper body strength, and it doesn't help all those times my shoulders have been trying to merge with my ears, and then she treated me by whacking me with a shovel.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 06:54 PM
Sounds like a capable therapist.

Now.. she whacked you in the SHOULDER right?
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 06:54 PM
BWAAAHAHAHAHAA!!!!

Fox
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 07:50 PM
hey, FOX...I went looked it up...you were right, it's the OW singing...Sorry it's a trigger...I think that I'll keep my POV, as that is the Wife singing...but I will remove it from my Sig line to be considerate tto you and others...

I had a trigger song, so I understand...and I'm not inclined to add to the hurt and pain I know...Thank you for calling it to my attention...i appreciate that...

Sd...thank you for allowing us to use your space! OLD MAN!!! BLAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Shovel!!! COOL!!!
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 07:54 PM
You don't have to remove it, Rin. You are entitled to keep your POV.

Just my own gunk - now that I know you view it differently than I do - it isn't the same hurt. KWIM?

Fox
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 08:04 PM
yea, i know...I hated that song what was it: Angel something...where he's sitting in the room and the OW calls and the GF is in the other room...IT drove me NUTS...the song was about what it was about...

Granted I flipped it with this one...but if it's a trigger for you then it's a trigger for someone else...I can still keep my POV and love the song without triggering my family...my GIFT to you and other...but I do hope that me flipping it helps you with the song...and for that I'm grateful! just a wife singing about her pain...the lyrics change at the end and it's hard to tell which woman is singing for me...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/12/07 08:25 PM
I think you are referring to "Lips of an Angel". DD13 LOVES that song - and requested it be used as a ringtone for her on my phone. Yuck. But it doesn't mean the same to her so I let it go.

Thanks for flipping it!

sdguy, please don't try to flip anything.....you might hurt yourself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Fox
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/13/07 01:01 AM
SD,

Hang in there ol' man! I just visited my chiropractor tonight! He's much more gentle than your therapist with the shovel,,, thank God!!

Rin,,,,, Yes, I am an Angel & a Goddess - thanks for the reminder. But even Goddesses must do that self care!!

Thank goodness the fitness center I joined has a steam room! After working out & getting worked 'over' by the chiropractor, I'm going to need a way to unwind all of these muscles that I forgot I had!!

Can't wait to get some firmer ABS back,,,,, they help to show off those other Angel 'assets' better. LOL!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/18/07 09:34 PM
Ho hum. Plan B is boring. Even the stuff that can trigger me kind of rolls off now.

For example, I took the kids over to the SCQ's place on Sunday at 12:15 or so for the transfer, and she wasn't there. I got pretty angry and was in the process of making a YOUR CHILDREN WERE HERE sign to put on her garage door when she showed up. She looked chagrinned and stammered something about 'yes I was out. . . traffic' when DS8 started giving her the business about being late. A sarcastic comment about 'there always being traffic' slipped out as I walked away.

I don't think she's being late intentionally. I think she's just really insensitive about punctuality. In the heat of the moment I wanted to send an email "Your lateness in delivering the kids to me says to me that you disrespect me. Your lateness to receive the kids tells me that you have something else going on that's more important to you than them. Oh, wait, that's true, isn't it?"

The good part is that the anger had washed away by the time I got the Christmas party I drove to next. Sunday and Monday were good days. In fact, all of the days have been good lately.

Yesterday was the SCQ's birthday. I was torn about whether or not to help the kids get her a present, and the Plan B thing would have been to do nothing. I don't see that being the best thing for the kids, so I thought about it. The reason not to do it would be if it affects either her or me in an undesirable way. So, if it contributes to her cake-eating or drives her away or something, don't do it--but she's not cake-eating. She's not trying to engage me, she respects my business-like emails only policy. She's just as dark as I am, except that she likes to talk with my parents when they're here.

And for me, when I asked Jennifer about this a while back, she said it would be okay so long as it didn't foster resentment for me (like, could I do it without expecting anything back). I decided that I can.

Years and years ago we found some tea that we liked--it was an after-dinner tea. She only found it once but looked everythwere for it. I found it recently and bought some. Then I let the kids each pick out a Christmas ornament to give her. They picked ones that had a spot for pictures, so I printed out pictures of them and wrapped them up. She will know exactly where the tea came from and will understand who did the work for the presents.

I don't have anything riding on this. If she feels nothing for it, which is most likely, that's fine. If it feels like a dagger to the ribs, that's fine, too. Whatever.

My life is good.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/18/07 09:51 PM
Quote
If it feels like a dagger to the ribs, that's fine, too. Whatever.

Finally found a use for the Plan B K-Bar you were issued.

Quote
Years and years ago we found some tea that we liked--it was an after-dinner tea. She only found it once but looked everythwere for it. I found it recently and bought some. Then I let the kids each pick out a Christmas ornament to give her. They picked ones that had a spot for pictures, so I printed out pictures of them and wrapped them up. She will know exactly where the tea came from and will understand who did the work for the presents.....If she feels nothing for it, which is most likely, that's fine.

I think that sounds good. She will feel it, but the person she once was is like the water at the bottom of a deep well. You dropped in a pebble and may not even hear the tiny splash. But deep down somewhere she will feel it.



What's your timeline on the D now SD? I have forgotten.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/18/07 11:47 PM
Quote
What's your timeline on the D now SD?

Good question. Nothing much is happening. I told my lawyer not to push on it, and the SCQ doesn't seem to be either.

I think right now we are supposed to be working out our own agreement over the house. I think that the final dispensation of assets is all that is left. If she had been pushing, this could have been over months ago.

I've been sitting tight all this time. I'm going to give it a couple of more months, and then if there's no change, I think I will start pushing on it. Maybe sooner if she brings the OM to her parents for Christmas.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/18/07 11:55 PM
Quote
I think I will ....... if she......


Don't let her drive the train, sdguy, we all know what kind of a driver she is. She's already derailed - don't let her make your decisions for you.

Fox
Posted By: stillhurting01 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/19/07 12:05 AM
Sdguy,

Just my opinion.... I think the tea was a wonderful gift. It just shows how thoughtful you are. And maybe deep inside her foggy brain she'll see that.

(((Sdguy)))

Still
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/19/07 12:51 AM
Quote
Don't let her drive the train, sdguy

So that's a good point. Jennifer advised me to give it six months without doing anything on my own to push the divorce. I'm not sure I want to wait that long.

Quote
I think the tea was a wonderful gift.

Thanks, Still. Like I said, it was a gift that could only have come from me, the person who knows her better than anyone else in the world. Actually, I suspect that it will tug at some string inside her somewhere, but it won't be anywhere near enough to penetrate the Fog. It's over and gone, though. I'm not giving it any thought.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/20/07 02:31 AM
So is she 41 now?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> EEEK! Now THAT'S old!

Good for you on the whole present thing. I'm glad that you can do what works for you, and the kids, without thought to what effect it will have on her. (affect? I always get confused)

I understand the feeling about triggers becoming less triggery. Are we becoming immune? Or are we just getting closer to acceptance? Or are we falling out of love?

Or does it matter?

Stuff that I used to just agonize over now causes minor irritation...like an ache instead of a stabbing pain.

You sound great, sd. I'm really glad to hear the peace in your voice.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/20/07 07:18 AM
Thanks, Sis.

I think it's acceptance, but I'm not sure. It could just be building tolerance to wayward stupidity. I think it does matter on some level, but I'm not sure how.

I think I fell out of love some time ago. Maybe long ago. When asked, my answer is that I know that I could love her again, but right now I do not. Times when I miss her are fewer and farther between all the time.

I think my pain is all for the kids now and the insanity she is forcing on them. This isn't what I wanted for my family. When you bring children into the world, you accept some responsibility (in my opinion), so I continue to do what I think is best for them. If I could think of some reason why we couldn't be happy together or some evidence that this wasn't a garden-variety romantic affair (and will thus end the way they all do), I would be out of here.

Good analogy. Dull ache instead of stabbing pain. Or maybe the annoying buzzing of an insect.

Yesterday, I received the annual Christmas present of fruit from the SCQ's grandparents. It was addressed to the SDG family. Today I got a card addressed to Mr/Mrs SDG from one of her aunts. Don't they know? Or is it a big secret? That would be the SCQ family way.

On Sunday, after six days of email silence, I got this from the SCQ:

Quote
The kids will be going to AZ for a few days next weekend.

Well, duh. This is where her parents live, so I, um, already knew that. I have no idea what information this was meant to convey, so I politely asked her to be more specific and gave her the flight numbers for my trip.

She responded that they would be leaving Friday and returning late Monday. Monday? You mean Christmas Eve Monday? On the road late Christmas Eve? WTF? Some possibilities come to mind, but it's a struggle to see how any of them could be "in the childrens' best interest." Is she that far gone?

It's out of my control. My cruise leaves tomorrow. Four days, to Cabo and back.

I'm ready.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/20/07 12:42 PM
Enjoy the cruise Guy!

Wanted to let you know that I talked to Jennifer last night.. and you're right, she's AMAZING at this stuff.

Sounds like you're taking a healthy outlook on your triggers and managing to keep your LBing to yourself. Great idea on the gift too.

Keeping you in my prayers bro.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/20/07 07:27 PM
SG,

Just thinking about you cruising your way around Cabo! Shades on, drink in hand, kicking back and relaxing!!

I am sooo jealous!!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/20/07 08:21 PM
I'll be thinking happy thoughts for all of you guys and sending them your way!
Posted By: LilSis Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/24/07 11:23 PM
Merry Christmas, sd and kids!

I'll take my cinnamon rolls warm from the oven since you are at it...

I'm so glad you got away and sound at peace.

Looking forward to all the good advice you'll soon be distributing....

((((hugs))))

Sis
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Happy Birthday - The BIG 4-0!! - 12/25/07 12:25 AM
Hey SD,

Happy Holidays and a Wonderful New Year. You are definitely the Plan B King around here and I so admire your patience.

Enjoy your cruise. Sounds like a good thing for you to do. As I sit here alone on Christmas Eve, I think that I should have done the same thing. Dang, poor planning on my part...

Have fun!!
Posted By: sdguy038 Cinnamon rolls, et al - 12/25/07 02:28 AM
Okay, so there's been a delay in the cinnamon rolls. Because the SCQ took the Kitchenaid Mixmaster (was okay--about the only thing she took from the kitchen), I had to figure out a different way to make the dough.

Use the bread machine! It's what I use to make pizza dough, so why not? Hmm. Seven cups of flour. Probably won't fit, right? Better cut the recipe in half. Dump in the ingredients . . . an hour and a half later, the beeper says it's done, and presto!

Wait. There's still flour on top. Lots of it. And yeast. Maybe all of the yeast. Sigh. Drawing board, here we come.

Phone call. . . Costco still open . . . road trip . . . new Mixmaster. Merry Christmas to me. The dough is rising.

Thanks for the kind words, CL. I think the experts would tell you that my plan B is flawed by too much contact, but it is what it is. That has made it harder on me, but I don't think it has affected the SCQ's choices. As Jennifer has told me, if the SCQ comes back, it won't be because of anything I do.

What do you think? Two batches of rolls?

The cruise was good. My new theory is that cruise ships are giant floating food troughs. I haven't checked yet to see how much weight I gained.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Cinnamon rolls, et al - 12/25/07 02:32 AM
Welcome back home SD.. Costco is a life saver isn't it?

Glad to hear someone elses home is going to be smelling as good as mine has the last few days.

Keep your head up man.. you're fighting a valiant fight.. kick back and enjoy this time.. Jennifer told me in not so many words that I've got plenty of time to be with someone (hopefully a lifetime with my WW).. so take full advantage of what time I have away from it.

Keep breathin brother.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Cinnamon rolls, et al - 12/25/07 02:45 AM
Hey SD, James

SD, I don't know how NOT to have contact if you have young children. I think that it would be dang near impossible.

I have called Jennifer a few times too. She's great. Told me to wait one year, and DO NOT get into any situations with the opposite sex. I know, I know - we're vulnerable, but it's not something I'm even thinking about.

James, I'm not too familiar with your sitch. I'll have to catch up on your thread.

I smell the cinnamon rolls. Yum. And skinsgal is doing crabs. Dinner smells good around here tonight guys.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Cinnamon rolls, et al - 12/25/07 04:57 PM
Merry Christmas, SD!

LOVE that you got a new MixMaster!! We bought Mom a red KitchenAid for Christmas!!

Glad you had a good time on the cruise,,,,don't step on that scale until Jan 2!! That's an order!

Enjoy your kids!

Oh, and feel free to send any extra rolls my way!
Posted By: sdguy038 The Midwest is Cold - 12/29/07 06:39 AM
On my cruise I spent a day in Cabo San Lucas. I signed up for one of the excursions and got driven up into a canyon, and we came back down by traversing on ziplines, rapelling, rock-climbing. It was a blast--stuff I'd never done before and wouldn't with the kids in tow.

Anyway, I mentioned Cabo because it was, like, 80 degrees. I got back home to San Diego, where it was a beautiful 70 degrees or so.

I got the kids back on Christmas Day (thank you, SCQ) and have now brought them back to the Midwest, where I was born and raised. We're visiting my parents.

Today we went out for a walk. The temp was 32 or so with a nice wind blowing, and I was cold by the time we got back. My California girl DD4 was seriously cold, and even DS8 was cold. I don't think he will talk about not needing a jacket anymore.

I grew up in this and then lived in St Paul for five years during graduate school, but my blood has thinned living in San Diego. It's cold out there.

Cinnamon rolls were good and well-received by my neighbors. I wore shorts to deliver them.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The Midwest is Cold - 12/29/07 02:05 PM
SD,

Welcome home to the wonderful Midwest!! Glad you are having time with the kids & family this holiday season.

32 degrees is COLD?? Come on! If you spent those grad years in St Paul, you know that 32 is more like a 'cool' day!!
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: The Midwest is Cold - 12/29/07 02:10 PM
SD & Bugs:

ONE of the reasons I stayed in Maryland and NEVER moved back to Michigan.

But $800k for a house will keep me out of the land of fruit and nuts for quite awile....

LG
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The Midwest is Cold - 12/30/07 12:44 AM
Midwest.. cold? No.. we have seasons here don't you remember? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That's ok old man.. it's not your blood thinning, they say with some age related illnesses the circulation starts going away.. do you feel tingly in your fingertips.. toes etc?

We wear gloves and stocking hats around here still <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey.. drop some buckeys out of the airplane as you pass over my part of the world.. we know how to take care of them here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: LilSis Re: The Midwest is Cold - 12/30/07 12:59 AM
...and the big question is...

Did the kids get to see SNOW?? Go sledding? Make a snowman? Have a snowball fight?

It is very easy to get acclimated to warm; a lot more difficult to get re-acclimated to cold.

Enjoy the visit!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Midwest is Cold - 12/30/07 07:47 AM
Yes, they have seen snow--there were some filthy aged piles on the ground when we got here, and we got a dusting the next morning. The first time for DD4. DS8 got to make some snowballs (no gloves). I'm hoping for some more snowfall, with big flakes that the kids (and I) can try to catch on their tongues.

The thing I miss second-most living where I do (behind thunderstorms) is the peace of watching snow fall outside when I am comfortably warm inside.

And yeah, I know that 32 isn't particularly cold. That's what was so sad about it. I was cold. At least I could still differentiate it from real cold in Minnesota--the I-don't-want-to-bend-my-legs-because-they-would-touch-my-pants-and-my-pants-are-really-freaking-cold cold. And I'm always careful to never use the word "cold" to describe weather in San Diego (unlike the native Left Coasters). (No argument, LG, it's an expensive place to live.)

I'm enjoying the visit, and the kids are having a great time. I'm doing a pretty good job of not thinking about Things, but they slip in there every now and then.

I managed to avoid it during my other vacation, but the Thinking sneaked up on me on the last day. I realized that I want to be With Someone. It's not out of any particular need. I am okay if not content alone, but it's just not how I want to live.

Not really a great time to mention Buckeyes to a guy whose Big Ten alliances are Minnesota, Illinois, and Iowa (at least I won't be in SoCal to see USC throttle Illinois), but I'll see what I can do.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The Midwest is Cold - 12/30/07 01:50 PM
I know I could never live anywhere without those rolling summer thunderstorms!! They are my favorite, too!

I know what you mean about wanting someone. I have an 'opportunity' for a friendship to be more, but I have determined that as much as I don't like being alone, I am not ready to be with anyone else just yet. It's so hard at times.

I wish I knew how to stop wanting to be with someone who doesn't want me. It's only when I allow myself that thought that I get sad these days.

It is better for the most part. Hey, we have almost made it all the way through the 'holidays'!! Alive and well!!

Quote
(at least I won't be in SoCal to see USC throttle Illinois)


Careful there!

I live on the IL/MO border, so I get to claim BOTH sides. Illini basketball and Mizzou football! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: LilSis Re: The Midwest is Cold - 12/31/07 01:48 PM
I could have written your post above (minus the part about those OTHER schools in those OTHER Midwest states).

Quote
I'm enjoying the visit, and the kids are having a great time. I'm doing a pretty good job of not thinking about Things, but they slip in there every now and then.
Probably because you can't be busy all the time. You still lay in bed alone--just before you fall asleep or when you wake up in the morning. You still see sights, hear sounds, or experience things that you know SCQ would have enjoyed. Those Things just come--unbidden-- because she is your wife, someone you knew intimately, because you knew what made her smile and laugh and cry, because you love(ed?) her.

This is okay. And I don't think it will be forever...at least when Things occur to you, they won't always have such a deep pang. Maybe just a twinge.

Quote
I managed to avoid it during my other vacation, but the Thinking sneaked up on me on the last day. I realized that I want to be With Someone. It's not out of any particular need. I am okay if not content alone, but it's just not how I want to live.
Gulp. I was thinking EXACTLY the same thing recently. And listen to what's going on with Bugs. It must be a nearly-a-year-in-Plan B-itch thing, since we are on similar timelines.

In my situation, the advice I got was right on: I was/am so emotionally dependent on WH for my well-being that it would be absolute folly to jump back into THAT mess.

I've still got baggage that I'm carrying around. I'll carry it around until I'm done with it...until I don't need it anymore. But this happens in its own time, not on MY timeline.

Being With Someone right now would just be inviting him to carry my bags for me. Which would be a welcome relief in the short term, but ultimately not fair to either one of us.

Anyway...today is today. Things will happen when they are supposed to happen.

But I sure do understand the Loneliness.

PS: No gloves?!? You ARE a guy.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Midwest is Cold - 01/01/08 08:04 AM
Thanks, Bugs and Sis, for those great posts.

To be honest, the twinges for the SCQ are fewer and farther (further?) between. I still have them, though, which I guess is good, since I'm not done yet.

Quote
I wish I knew how to stop wanting to be with someone who doesn't want me. It's only when I allow myself that thought that I get sad these days.

It will come, Bugs. The longer you stay in your Plan B (especially if you start shielding yourself better), the easier it will be.

Quote
Being With Someone right now would just be inviting him to carry my bags for me. Which would be a welcome relief in the short term, but ultimately not fair to either one of us.

There is wisdom in this. An Old Friend recently asked me if I have been behaving, and the answer is that I have.

It snowed here today. About three inches, so the kids got to go out in it. It wasn't right for snowmen, but it was just about perfect for snowballs--light but packable. We had a pretty good snowball fight. Pretty cute watching DD4 run right up next to someone and toss the snowball at them. She made snow angels, too. DD8 had a great time until he took one in the face (aimed at a cousin).

Quote
No gloves?!? You ARE a guy.

I am a guy. But (2008's first yeah-buttal. Beat you to it, Fox.) I did consider making him put his gloves on before the walk. His opinion was that he didn't need a coat, and moaned about it, so I let him find out what it was to be cold by letting him go with no gloves. Today, looking for his gloves before going outside was HIS idea.

Today I wore my birthday present from my SIL (my brother might have had a hand in it, too), a monogrammed t-shirt--with the letters SDG. There were dark glasses (to complete the costume), too. Pretty cool.

Went to a New Year's celebration tonight with friends of friends, which was a good time. A tradition of theirs is going around the room with the previous year's low point, high point, and the resolution for the next year. They got to me and my low point, and I said "Are you sure you want to hear this?" They said yes, so I gave them both barrels.

Then, for 2008, I resolved to cough/sneeze into my elbow rather than my hand. I thought this was a pretty good resolution, but my friend hassled me about it, so I added that I would check out the Del Mar yoga studio so that I can do yoga more often. In the back of my mind, I wonder whether there are any attractive trust fund recipients (lots of money in Del Mar) who practice yoga there.

Happy New Year, everyone!
Posted By: sdguy038 Any feedback available? - 01/09/08 01:12 AM
Things have been quiet for some time.

Apparently, they had been too quiet, so I stirred them up by sending the following email to my ILs:

Quote
Dear MIL and FIL,

It's been about a year since the SCQ moved out. During that time, I have done my best to provide good lives for the children and live my own life while respecting the fact that I am still married to the SCQ. I have made it clear that divorce is her choice and have done nothing to advance the case, and so it has moved slowly.

You just spent a few days with the SCQ, and I would like your opinion. Is there any point to my continuing this, or should I embrace the divorce and get it over with? What do you recommend that I do?

If your preference is to talk on the phone, I would be happy to call. If you don't want to discuss this at all, you can tell me that, too.

This response came today:

Quote
SDGuy;
This is a difficult subject for us to make any kind of decisions about either for or against. However, from what we have heard and seen from both yourself and the SCQ it appears that divorce is going to be the final outcome no matter what else is said or done. I know it is a hard
thing to contemplate but her mind is made up. You both can still be loving parents to the children as long as love is the main reason for maintaining the relationship. The longer the divorce is prolonged the more difficult it will be on all concerned. You and the SCQ have your differences. Those apparently cannot be mended. DS8 and DD4 will still know both of you as Mommy and Daddy. That will never change. I wish I could just snap my fingers and the unwanted portion of the past would disappear , but then I'm not the Man upstairs. DS8 and DD4 Love you both dearly. That can never be lost.

Love

FIL

I'm thinking that this is typical. There are some ambiguous statements in there that my gut instinct wants to follow up on. (What differences? What do you mean that they can't be mended? Do you mean to say that there's a part of you that wants your child to be divorced?)

What has she really told them? I don't think they have met POSOM. Is she still concealing facts because she's ashamed of what she's doing?

Advice encouraged. Even the obvious 2x4 of "Why are you reaching out to ILs if this is a so-called Plan B?"

It's been a year. On one hand, I can keep doing it. On the other, well, it's been a year. I was thinking this morning, wondering whether I would feel anything if the SCQ died suddenly. I don't think that I would. If she vanished from the face of the earth and I never saw her again, I think that would be fine.
Posted By: Tyk Re: Any feedback available? - 01/09/08 02:25 AM
Don't discount the idea that they are giving you the best opinion they can, or that it may even be correct. After a year? I'm in no position to even attempt to imagine what a year of Plan B might be like, but I have to wonder: do you even want her back? Doesn't sound like you even know if you do or not.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Any feedback available? - 01/09/08 06:01 AM
Thanks, Tyk. I think you're right, and that they are giving the best opinion that they can.

What do I want? I want the biological parents of my children to be in love. I would settle for the biological parents of my children making a real, honest attempt to repair their marriage, because that hasn't happened yet. I know that I can live happily without her. Beyond that, I don't know, but it's not like I need to worry about it at the moment.

I got the following via email from BrambleRose:

Quote
Things have been quiet for some time. Apparently, they had been too quiet, so I stirred them up by sending the following email to my ILs:


Too much time on your hands..."apparently"...

Dear MIL and FIL,

It's been about a year since the SCQ moved out. During that time, I have done my best to provide good lives for the children and live my own life while respecting the fact that I am still married to the SCQ. I have made it clear that divorce is her choice and have done nothing to advance the case, and so it has moved slowly.

You just spent a few days with the SCQ, and I would like your opinion. Is there any point to my continuing this, or should I embrace the divorce and get it over with? What do you recommend that I do?



*pounding my head on my laptop screen*

What on earth - those cinnamon rolls must have gone to your head....

Why didn't you just ask the OM if you should keep hanging in there?

Life...marriage...divorce decisions...by committee...a committee that does not have your best interest in mind???

What exactly goes through you mind to think that this might be a good idea?

You will know if there is hope, if and when she knocks on your door and says she is sorry and willing to do what it takes to win you back!!!

Stop trying to peek around the edges of Plan B!!!! *thwack*


If your preference is to talk on the phone, I would be happy to call. If you don't want to discuss this at all, you can tell me that, too.

This response came today:
SDGuy;
This is a difficult subject for us to make any kind of decisions about either for or against. However, from what we have heard and seen from both yourself and the SCQ it appears that divorce is going to be the final outcome no matter what else is said or done. I know it is a hard
thing to contemplate but her mind is made up. You both can still be loving parents to the children as long as love is the main reason for maintaining the relationship. The longer the divorce is prolonged the more difficult it will be on all concerned. You and the SCQ have your differences. Those apparently cannot be mended. DS8 and DD4 will still know both of you as Mommy and Daddy. That will never change. I wish I could just snap my fingers and the unwanted portion of the past would disappear , but then I'm not the Man upstairs. DS8 and DD4 Love you both dearly. That can never be lost.
Love
FIL

I'm thinking that this is typical.



Ya think?? They are WHO they are, not who you want them to be. OF COURSE you got this wishy washy namby pamby crapola answer!!

There are some ambiguous statements in there that my gut instinct wants to follow up on. (What differences? What do you mean that they can't be mended? Do you mean to say that there's a part of you that wants your child to be divorced?)
What has she really told them? I don't think they have met POSOM. Is she still concealing facts because she's ashamed of what she's doing?[/i]


Why??

The main reason most of us ask why is because we believe with a little more knowledge and a few more details, we can "control" the situation and or person. Asking "why" only wastes our energy - it rarely changes anything.

What if??

What if's keep us from living in the reality of the moment and also keep us from admitting we are powerless. When we are in the past with the "whys" and the future with the "what ifs" we loose today. Today is the only day we have.


Advice encouraged. Even the obvious 2x4 of "Why are you reaching out to ILs if this is a so-called Plan B?"
It's been a year. On one hand, I can keep doing it. On the other, well, it's been a year. I was thinking this morning, wondering whether I would feel anything if the SCQ died suddenly. I don't think that I would. If she vanished from the face of the earth and I never saw her again, I think that would be fine.

Any thoughts?



My thoughts are that you need to be on the phone to Jennifer Harley YESTERDAY.

This was a well-deserved 4x4 (I-beam?) It got me wondering what *was* I thinking. I think I figured out something, and since I think it's a fairly classic inappropriate response to trigger thing and could be instructive to the newbie Plan Bers in the audience, I'll post more details when I get a chance.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Any feedback available? - 01/09/08 12:05 PM
SD,

Well, anything I'd planned to say isn't necessary now is it? I think you have the correct response from BR above.

What WERE you thinking? I think you also know the answer to that.

Don't take it too hard, because I *do* understand the feelings,,, the *need* that likely was behind your actions. It can be overwhelming at times, which if we allow that to happen, leads us to doing things which are not good for us.

I can see that you have learned your lesson. I am just sorry that it hurt you.

{{SDGuy}}
Posted By: chrisner Re: Any feedback available? - 01/09/08 03:47 PM
Incoming 12’ W10 x 66 wide flange “I” beam. And take off the hard hat.

Dude, my jaw dropped when I read that. There was no mention of you drinking heavily so I assume you knew what you were doing. What were you doing?

Oh well BR covered it all anyway.

“Why didn't you just ask the OM if you should keep hanging in there?”

Insert Hockey Announcer: “SCCCCCCOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRE.

Next time go down to Skid Row and talk to the transients there about their opinion on SCQ. They would have better advice than the IL’s.

Remember to always come here first before you do that so we can give you a deluxe wedgie tug first.

Elaine: Why do they call it a "wedgie"?

George: Because the underwear is pulled up from the back until ... it wedges in.

Jerry: They also have an Atomic Wedgie. Now the goal there is to actually get the waistband on top of the head. It's very rare.

Elaine: Boys are sick.

Okay, put the hard hat back on, shows over.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: Any feedback available? - 01/09/08 05:15 PM
You did WHAT!? As my mom would say "that just earned you twenty lashes with a wet noodle" (she was always teasing, of course) Wooden spoons were serious, wet noodles not so much.

Wet noodles are much easier to carry - those 2 bys and I-beams are way too heavy for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just decided I better stop saying "wet noodle", cause SOMEONE around here will make it sound dirty. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think you know the drawbacks to this interaction - you risked a little bit of your own sanity and peace. You didn't gain any - you let loose of some.

I understand the why's - hard to explain but there are why's.

And, as you know, whys don't always have to be about controlling something. And when they ARE about controlling something, it isn't necessarily bad.

If you would have asked yourself WHY you were contemplating this reach out to the in-laws, you may have been able to control yourself. You could assess what you were hoping to gain and then assess the likelihood of getting that.

Sometimes we don't ask why - because we don't want to know the answer. Because it would stop us from what we want to do anyway.

I'm not surprised at the ILs response to you. They've been wishy washy from the beginning. They can't really see inside your marriage - and probably have heard quite a bit of re-writing from the SCQ.

And really......they have no power in this. The question on what they recommend leaves a burden on them - how can they make an informed decision when they aren't YOU? They weren't a partner in your marriage - they didn't make vows to you.

The only real loyalty they have to you is because of your children - their main loyalty has to be to the SCQ - their OWN child.

The statement of "her mind is made up"- Yeah, right. That's what she is SAYING to them. She's wayward, that's what waywards say.

Her mind was made up the day she said vows to you, too, I would think.

Only YOU know your threshold. There is hope as long as you believe there is hope. It's also your choice to not live by hope alone.

Keep living, sdguy. You don't HAVE to make a decision right now. It will come - and one day WHACK you between the eyes.

If it is still a question, then you're not done. Don't quit until your done.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Any feedback available? - 01/09/08 07:00 PM
So...how did this happen? Flashback to day 1 of my cruise. I've been on the ship for maybe an hour when my cell phone rings, and it's my lawyer. He tells me that a motion has been filed to re-evaluate the weekend custody of our children, to complete an independent appraisal of the house, and for me to pay attorney fees. My lawyer tells me the Family Court Services mediation session is scheduled for January 8.

Nice timing. Now I'm triggered when I'm supposed to be relaxing. I tried to just put it away, but it still festered at me some. Because I told him, no, I couldn't receive a fax, my lawyer mailed the documents to me.

I got home but didn't open the documents because I didn't want to ruin my mood. I brought the documents with me on my trip to my parents.

The whole time I'm wondering how to approach the mediation session and FTF contact with the SCQ. Is it time to make a play to penetrate the Fog? Or has the SCQ brought the POSOM with her (and my kids) to her parents for the holidays, in which case maybe I should just chuck the whole thing. And the whole time, I'm not talking to anyone about this or even posting about it.

Flash forward a few days. The SCQ didn't bring the POSOM with her. I finally open the documents. She's asking for *every* weekend to be complete. And her justifications in the motion contain misrepresentations of events (*gasp*). So now I'm *really* triggered and still don't know how to approach the mediation session.

If only I could look inside the SCQ's head and see what's going on. The IL's know my position and what I want. I think it's what they want, but they won't really come out and say it. They have just spent time with her.

Is the SCQ telling her parents the truth? Do they know about her life with the OM, or is she still concealing things from them and spewing Fog?

In the past, the ILs have indicated to me that it's up to the two of us to work it out, concerned because we're not talking. The SCQ is very passive. Maybe she told them "how can we work it out when SDGuy won't even talk to me?" That would affect how I approach the mediation session, right? What if? What if? What if?

Off goes the email.

BR pounded me hardest for asking advice from the enemy. I have claimed information gathering (which is also not okay, for the record) rather than seeking advice. I think I phrased my message to them in terms of asking advice in order to elicit a response and get as much information from them as possible. I don't know whether or not this makes it any less jaw-droppingly dumb.

Sigh. If only. What if.

Attention Plan B Rookies: this was a trigger. I didn't recognize it. Didn't talk about it. Didn't post about it. When it got too intense, I reacted. It seemed like a reasonable idea at the time, but you see the responses from my amigos (thanks, guys. You probably saved SL a whole bunch of typing). The response from my ILs was entirely predictable, and yes, it hurt. Duh.

For those of you with copies of The Language of Letting Go, BR sent me Nov 30. Stop chasing the gerbil.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Any feedback available? - 01/09/08 07:50 PM
I just wanted to stop by and THWACK you about the head. You know better, mister. POST HERE FIRST. Don't make me reach through this screen and give you what for! (Not even anterior cervical discectomy with fusion can keep me from this one, HA HA HA).

Thank God for BR! Man, I miss her round these parts.

I'm gonna read Nov 30th. I do love that book.

It really does happen just as you described, too, creeping up, building, then you start to make excuses and justifications for contact, and you avoid posting here because you KNOW we're going to discourage you. Meanwhile, your hoping that something different will be said, and you'll regain some control.

Control is an illusion.

Take care, guy smiley.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Any feedback available? - 01/09/08 08:16 PM
Thanks, SL. I figured you'd want to get in on the 2x4 action, too.

Of course, I do know better. It's so much easier to see it for someone else than it is yourself. I have posted to others on what they can expect from ILs. I have preached to always post here first. But when it's me. . . .

That was a really good post, Fox. And I got a good laugh out of the hockey announcer. So right.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Any feedback available? - 01/09/08 09:02 PM
Geez...get busy for a couple of days and looks what unfolds.

I agree with the message to newbies. Huge red flag for me was this:
Quote
And the whole time, I'm not talking to anyone about this or even posting about it.

--->klaxon sounding<------

If you are a regular poster who doesn't post about something significant, or if you are not talking to someone about it, something's cooking, and the result is not going to be good.

BTDT.
Posted By: sdguy038 Still got your 2x4s handy? - 01/11/08 07:16 AM
I was in the middle of composing a yeahbuttal to BrambleRose about how I'm further along than she gives me credit for when something happened, so I abbreviated the yeahbuttal and then put the new stuff at the end. Apologies for the length.

>> You are still being RIGHT.

I am still being RIGHT. I AM right. I recognize, however, that this and five bucks will buy me a cup of coffee and that ultimately the resentment that will come from dwelling on it will hurt me. At the moment, I am not being right at anyone or letting it ruin my day or the like.

>> But what you are doing is not living. You are going through motions that are not fooling anyone.

I am living the best that I can under the circumstances. For a year now, I have been a single dad. I am married but have no wife. Jennifer talked to me about just trying to survive this period of insanity in my life. I think I'm doing better at this than you think. Maybe because I speak up more when things are not great and don't revel in the good stuff enough.

>> Holding back with whiteknuckles is NOT anything more than a thinly disguised entitled taker trying to get lose.

This is an exaggeration. I'm nothing like the quivering smoker trying to quit feverishly while eyeing the crumpled pack of cigarettes on the counter. I think about it from time to time, moreso when I am feeling bad and subconsciously looking for a way to make myself feel better. I recognize that I am vulnerable. I acknowledged it to you (maybe so that you could know that you are RIGHT). Nothing more than that.

>> Because if you could just find the RIGHT words to convince her, she'd see your rightness and come home. My sponsor called this Looking for the loophole.

Maybe, but I don't think so. I gave up trying to convince her a long, long time ago. Only she can pull her head out of her [censored]. Believe me, I learned this lesson the hard way. If the RIGHT words existed, I'm sure I would have said them. I said everything else. When I was still talking to her, I told her it was not about who is right and who is wrong, it's about what's best for us and our family.

I know that I'm right and that it doesn't matter.

>> Because if you could just find the RIGHT words to convince them, they'd see your rightness and force their daughter to halt this stupidity.

I know that they don't have this power. It would be nice to know that they have done what they could, though.

So, I said that something happened. I got a call today from the OMW, and I took it. We talked for an hour and a half. The highlights:

her divorce is no further along than mine (i.e., not being pushed)

once again, she did not sound crazy, or unstable (as she had been described)

she told me BW horror stories (he has called the police on her for stuff he basically instigated, potentially to build his case to get 50% custody, which he now has and never would have gotten otherwise)

she believes he is an alcoholic, that for a while he was drinking 1-2 bottles of wine per night, getting falling down drunk, wetting himself

she told me he is very controlling, that he never liked her independence (this fits with my belief that he is the instigator and the SCQ is the follower)

from what she told me, he is totally cake-eating. Every time I have talked to her, she makes noises about having had it, that she can't take it anymore and is going to move on. Then she apparently backslides and lets him back in. She tells me they had a long conversation Christmas Eve about their relationship (she did most of the talking, but he told her the next day that he wanted to continue it). That they had lunch together within the last week, talking about the kids. That a couple of weeks ago, when he was sick, he called her and asked her to bring him some soup, which she did.

that his mother controls him and always has. She believes the SCQ taking me to court about weekend custody is because without full weekends, the SCQ isn't free to go to his mother's weekend getaways, and his mother gets what she wants.

she reiterated that he hates the idea of the two of us talking

I told her that this is all typical wayward spouse stuff, all going by the script. That her husband is a garden-variety wayward husband--that he will cake-eat for as long as you let them, will lie on both sides (I'm all but positive that he's lying to the SCQ as well), and ultimately probably won't leave his family.

I told her that there is nothing I can do. That the SCQ is almost certainly the follower and totally under his spell. Nothing I do will have an effect.

I told her that I didn't think she was powerless. We have talked about MB before, and I have encouraged her to do a Plan B. I reiterated this--that I think a good plan B would do wonders for her, that she could schedule an appointment with the Harleys, that she could check out the website, that I would help her if she wanted it. I have told her this before several times, so I didn't really push it. I can't control her, nor should I try.

I also wondered aloud whether the SCQ knew how much contact he's (OM) is having with her (OMW). What would happen if the SCQ knew about the chicken soup thing? There must be a dozen more things like that he's concealed from Kim. Maybe she should tell the SCQ. I certainly can't.

She said she had to do something, because she was tired of going crazy. Maybe she will. It's possible, I suppose, that she's looney and fabricating what she told me. I *am* too trusting a person. Still, she didn't sound nuts. There was plausible detail behind what she said, and really, nothing she has done is out of character for a betrayed spouse. We have every reason to act a little nuts.

So. I learned some things. Got some things confirmed. It is standard romantic affair stuff and will almost certainly end the way they all do.

I guess that wasn't enough of a confirmation, though, because I got on the phone and called my FIL. The email from him was really quite compassionate, so I thought I would probe for more info.

I thanked him for the note, apologized for putting him in such an awkward position, and asked if we could chat for a minute. I awkwardly explained to him that I was trying to get a look inside the SCQ's head. That if I believed she was making sound decisions rather than just letting the affair do the thinking (using different words), I would give up.

He was very open with me. They know that she is making a mistake. They did what they could to try to talk her out of it but said it was like talking to a wall. He told me the things she listed as our "differences," which are completely revisionist history. He said he didn't hear anything that aren't problems just like every marriage has. He owned a lot of her behavior--that she gets her stubbornness and passivity from him. He said she was very cagey when he asked how her relationship with OM began. He acknowledged that the way they are trying to put a family together won't work--that it's not like two divorced people coming together well after marriages are over. He said DS8 and OM's DD4 don't get along.

I told him what I learned about the OM--that he is almost certainly lying to the SCQ. I told him what OMW told me.

They get it and have done what they can. He said to call any time. He said that whatever happens, they both love me like a son.

So. I learned some more things.

I'm triggered, of course, but I feel pretty good. I think I can and will keep doing what I'm doing for a while longer. I'm also setting up a session with Jennifer asap to discuss strategy. I have to go face-to-face with the SCQ in a couple of weeks.

Yes, I lunged at the gerbil. If the gerbil doesn't know that I lunged at it, does it still count?
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Still got your 2x4s handy? - 01/11/08 07:58 AM
SD,

Ok, you got some intel from OM's BW. Is it true? Is it not? Does any of it matter??

Then, you talked to FIL. Sounds like you got the 'validation' you were wanting to get from them. How does it feel?

Does it HELP you in any way?

or

Does all of this drag you back down the WW Crazy Path of Thinking too much about what you can't control, about what you WANT vs what IS, and is it driving you around and around in a circle?

Just curious.

By the way,,,,I'm not judging you here. Trust me, I stil find myself getting drawn into convos about Drac from time to time that are very much like what you've written here. I'm totally guilty of the same which is why I asked the questions I did.

I wanted to know things and at times, I still do. I will admit to "getting something" out of knowing things - - -but I really am not sure what it is exactly.

Then, later, I see myself having discussed Drac, thought about it over and over again, and it's like picturing myself on the NASCAR track going around and around in a circle and getting nowhere new.(I won't comment on the fans in the stands watching that fiasco happen! lol!)

So,,,,,,,,,,,,,you are not alone!

{{SDGuy}}
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Still got your 2x4s handy? - 01/11/08 12:39 PM
SD.. given that I have a similar, if not maybe even a little better relationship at the moment with my IL's I -completely- understand your motivations for probing and keeping open lines of communication with them.

I imagine that if you were honest with yourself, there is some motivation in the realization (or re-realization) that the A is a garden variety romantic A, and will end eventually as they all do.. and when it does, SCQ will likely turn to her family with the 'what to do's' and somewhere you're trying to plant seeds for the ultimate conversation envisioned in your head where FIL looks lovingly at his daughter and tells her what a man she STILL HAS in you..

I've had visions in my head of the same conversation.. I hope it works out for the both of us.

I wouldn't bet the farm on it though. In my experience, continued contact with the IL's results at least temporarily in knee jerk reactions and venom from WW who resents the fact that her family still considers me a 'son' and allows her to live in the fantasy that I've poisoned them against her. Your mileage may vary. So far WW hasn't grasped the 'intended' concept that everyone who actually knows her and cares about her doesn't want to see her do this with her life..

Ultimately though, it is HER life to do with what she pleases. We're both in a place where we have to simply allow the consequences of a life not-so-well lived fall on the heads of our WW's. They're going to have to hit bottom before the turnaround we -need- in order to contemplate R happens.

I'm behind you man, and will support you all the way.. I still have a relationship with my IL's and I understand the importance of that, but this isn't their fight... this isn't their choice.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Still got your 2x4s handy? - 01/11/08 03:10 PM
I don't have a problem with a maintained relationship with the IL's, it's more about probing questions regarding their daughter that I have a problem with. They can't get inside her head, just as guy smiley can't get inside her head.

Every conversation you have about SCQ sets you back and drains your LB. You know this. Stop chasing the gerbil. IGNORE it.

Maybe we should start calling waywards, gerbils. It's much more fun a term.

Also, any intel that gets back to SCQ tells her that you are still sitting and waiting. Plan B should also be about showing the WS that you are done with the wayward, and ONLY have time for a spouse.

You've been at this a long time, guy, and I raise my hat to you. It seems the one last thing that you need to work on is LETTING GO. DETACH.

I didn't have as much time in Plan B, so I had to take on this task during recovery. I am just now really *getting* it.

Oh, and since you won't be chasing the gerbil, I do recommend looking down while you walk, to avoid the gerbil poo...
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Still got your 2x4s handy? - 01/11/08 04:21 PM
MY TURN!!!

Were you sick, running a fever???? Injected with something, smoking something we don't know about, attacked and saw your life flash before your eyes, almost had a near death experience...HAVE YOU BEEN HANGING AROUND ME? LOL pretty important question since I did what I did... LOL

Of course, if I asked my ILs that they would tell me to drop the D and stuck it out for the sake of the kids! How sick is that?

That would be like it's okay to be miserable for the rest of your life, while he cheats on you...doesn't met your needs, lies, sneaks around...I think they are actually sicker than HE IS!!

:deep breathe: Oh, SD...I know that there are times when we just feel that we have to know...as if we don't have enough drama in your lives we have to create more when things get quiet...

:shruggin: I got some validation, I learned some things that i needed to learn from the sitch...perhaps the stuff I needed NOT to dwell on a future with STBX...dwell on his stuff...wonder what's going on WITH HIM...

I don't know man! I really don't know! I'm certainly not judging you because I don't have that right...but I'm in there with you...

How's your focus doing with returning to you? How are YOU caring for yourself RIGHT NOW?

Huge ((((SD)))))!!!!

It will be okay! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: LilSis Re: Still got your 2x4s handy? - 01/11/08 04:26 PM
Here’s what I think, filtered through my lens of how I think and feel. (I don’t have time to write much, but I thought I’d throw this out there.)

I suspect that you are fishing for intel because you are hoping to hear something that will get things moving for you…one way or another. “Maybe if I find out that SCQ and OM are happy as clams, then I will be DONE.” “Maybe if I find out there’s trouble in paradise, then I will know to keep hanging on.” If you KNOW what's going to happen in the future, or what's going on with the gerbils...then you'll know what frame of mind to be in TODAY.

BUT...what's going on with the gerbils shouldn't be driving your frame of mind, your thoughts, your behaviors TODAY. That's not respectful of yourself. You--and your desire to be a man of the highest integrity--should be driving your behaviors, actions, and thoughts. Not some potential outcome of a sordid affair relationship.

Leave them out of the equation. (Easy for me to say!!)
Be your very best self TODAY.
Live for YOU today.

I wonder: Are you looking for closure? Are you trying to DO something to obtain said closure? Are you trying to force it, just because you don't like where you are now?

IMO, closure is not something that you can DO anything about. As BR said to me, you’ll carry around this baggage until you are done with it. You will carry around these feelings for SCQ until you no longer need them. BR: “You can’t force this.” When you are done, you won’t need the bags anymore, and you will know it. You be able to comfortably put the bags down and peacefully walk away, without longing, worried, hopeful backward glances.

(Tangent here: I also think that we have to resist the temptation to ask another (opposite sex) person to carry our bags for us. It’s important to carry your own bags. It makes us stronger. It makes us more confident.)

I don’t have my book with me, otherwise I’d give you a day.

The urgency about being DONE; trying so hard to get yourself out of this uncomfortable place you are in…it’s just going to work in its own time…not yours. Also paraphrasing BR: Uncomfortable=growth. Comfortable=complacency. Use the discomfort to motivate you to keep growing. But you can’t PUSH past it or skip over it. You have to go right through it. The discomfort is OKAY. You may not like it, but it’s a good thing.

TRUST that someday soon, you will be able to put down the bags, and peacefully walk away. THAT is what you should be striving for, because either way—REGARDLESS of anything done or said by SCQ/OM/OMW/ILs—you NEED to be able to do that.

I’m trying to write this quickly, so if it doesn’t make sense, I apologize.

PS: I realize that saying all this does not give you any guidance about HOW exactly to do this, but maybe it gives you a way to think about it.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Still got your 2x4s handy? - 01/11/08 04:28 PM
Wow, Sis! Just WOW!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Still got your 2x4s handy? - 01/11/08 08:14 PM
Agreed, SL.

Quote
I suspect that you are fishing for intel because you are hoping to hear something that will get things moving for you…one way or another. “Maybe if I find out that SCQ and OM are happy as clams, then I will be DONE.” “Maybe if I find out there’s trouble in paradise, then I will know to keep hanging on.” If you KNOW what's going to happen in the future, or what's going on with the gerbils...then you'll know what frame of mind to be in TODAY.

You totally nailed it, Sis. I think that's exactly what I'm doing, all precipitated by the upcoming mediation session.

BR is probably apoplectic right now. I can just picture her shaking her head having read what I sent her. I'm not letting go. I'm not detached. If I had really let go, I would have already been done. I think that knowing what I know is the only thing keeping me in this.

When I talk with Jennifer, Plan B is about recovering your marriage, not personal recovery. In my opinion, that part is a positive side effect.

What I learned really doesn't change what I'm going to do. It makes it easier to do what I wanted to do anyway. I have been living well with a good life with my children and friends and family, and I'm going to keep doing that.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Still got your 2x4s handy? - 01/11/08 10:51 PM
Quote
If I had really let go, I would have already been done.
I disagree. Letting go is not the same as being Done, IMO. You can let go of the drama, the anxiety, the need to KNOW...and still not be Done.

Maybe it's the definition of "Done." To me, Done is setting down the bags and walking peacefully away. You disengage from the drama, anxiety, and need to KNOW while still carrying around the bags.

You can have feelings for SCQ, but not indulge those feelings.

I'm not articulating this very well, unfortunately.

Quote
When I talk with Jennifer, Plan B is about recovering your marriage, not personal recovery. In my opinion, that part is a positive side effect.
This is one of those things that is almost like a chicken/egg thing.

If you don't mind a TJ, could I throw something out there that's been on my mind lately? (Not in relation to your situation, but in general)

I think there are people here who see Plan B as if it were a way to bully or threaten or scare the WS into coming back. This is a mistake.

This is how I felt about Plan B in the beginning. It was NOT healthy. That is controlling and manipulative. It certainly didn't do my personal recovery any favors. I was still spinning around the universe of WH, only the lights were turned off.

Plan B is a general recovery program, IMO. Plan B won't recover the marriage in every case; we know this. So if the marriage doesn't recover, does that make the Plan Ber a failure? I don't feel like a failure.

I think that marital recovery after the trauma of an affair--even more so when the WS lingered on with the OP after d-day--REQUIRES personal recovery.

I can't imagine going back into a marriage (or any relationship for that matter) without having learned to trust oneself, to love oneself, to create healthy boundaries, to break habits that lead us to attempt to control, question, and doubt.

In order to learn those lessons, the BS needs the protection of a nice, dark, Plan B.

SL mentioned something lately about doing both at the same time...how tough that is.

So marital recovery...personal recovery. You can't have the former without the latter, IMO. Referring to Plan B as if it's simply a strategy to recover a marriage is far too simplistic.

Rant over.

******

Quote
I have been living well with a good life with my children and friends and family, and I'm going to keep doing that.
I know you are, sd, and I'm so delighted to hear about your fun adventures and trips. You'll carve everything out in its own time and in your own way. I don't think anyone can tell you what to do or how to do it. All anyone else can do is shine a light on your path, and maybe reveal a bump in the road that you can avoid.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Still got your 2x4s handy? - 01/12/08 12:38 AM
Quote
I disagree. Letting go is not the same as being Done, IMO. You can let go of the drama, the anxiety, the need to KNOW...and still not be Done.

Maybe it's the definition of "Done." To me, Done is setting down the bags and walking peacefully away. You disengage from the drama, anxiety, and need to KNOW while still carrying around the bags.

You can have feelings for SCQ, but not indulge those feelings.

I'm not articulating this very well, unfortunately.

No, you are. It's great stuff, Sis. I'm probably not articulating well, though.

Maybe I should have said if I had let go any more I would be done. I've gotten much better at resisting the drama. There have been a few notable exceptions (the dreaded Chrismtas ornaments), but prior to that one I think it had been a drama-free couple of months. Mostly drama-free, anyway.

Or maybe instead of done, I should have said done with this waiting period that is Plan B and moved to Plan D, which is not necessarily the same as being Done.

BR hammers me for not letting go. I don't know how to let go any more than I already have without Getting On With My Life.

Quote
So marital recovery...personal recovery. You can't have the former without the latter, IMO. Referring to Plan B as if it's simply a strategy to recover a marriage is far too simplistic.

Yeah, again, I have too many thoughts crashing around my head and don't spend enough time trying to make them coherent. Obviously, there are personal recovery components to Plan B. Sometimes, for me personally, at least, the personal recovery piece comes at odds with the marital recovery piece, and I have been opting for the marital recovery pathway. If personal recovery were my primary goal, I wouldn't be doing it this way.

I wanted to KNOW. I'm a scientist. I want the data before I make decisions. The mediation feels like a decision point to me. On the other hand, I like to be RIGHT, so I may have been indulging that need as well--making sure that I am right.

I don't know. Like I said, the thoughts are still banging around, and I'm still processing. Thanks, everyone, for listening and offering your thoughts. Bugs and James, I'm still thinking about what you guys said.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Still got your 2x4s handy? - 01/14/08 07:34 AM
So, a good weekend. Scheduled a play date for DS8 at our house (one of the first) for Saturday, which the kids (including DD4) enjoyed. Sunday we watched the Lightning Bolts win their second straight playoff game at the neighbors (made cinnamon rolls again . . . mmm). Then some shopping, a walk at the beach, and a quiet evening at home.

No residual psychological trauma from The Information. No obsessing. Feeling pretty calm, really.

I'm glad to know what I know. It was mildly triggering, but I also improved my relations with my ILs (I didn't really know how things stood, but now I do, and I am satisfied).
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Still got your 2x4s handy? - 01/14/08 12:58 PM
I'll be the first to agree, it is -very- comforting to know that the IL's understand your position, and encouraging when they support you. I think what probably makes things hardest, at least for me is that WW either just doesn't see, or just doesn't care that -everyone- who truly knows and cares about her wants her to turn back from this path she has chosen.

Knowing where you stand with them, and it seems to be you're in a pretty good place is good. Like I said before, I know for me there's a component of hope there that knowing she will eventually restore a relationship with her family after the A is done, that they will relate to her at least a little of what they watched me go through, and knowing that through it all I continued to love her and -be- her husband... that it will make a difference. I still hope it will.. not going to count on it though.

Don't have much advice to give Guy.. but I can empathise with where you're at. Take what comfort you can from it, but then get on with the business of taking care of you and the kids. I know you will.. I know that you're way ahead of me in this, and seeing the bumps in the road ahead of time doesn't always make them easier to take, but at least you're ready for them.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Still got your 2x4s handy? - 01/16/08 03:26 AM
GuySmiley,,,,

Where are you,,,, HOW are you?

Isn't the mediation this week,,Thursday? Just checking in to see if we can help.

Thinking of you, my friend!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Still got your 2x4s handy? - 01/16/08 05:18 AM
Thanks for asking, Bugs. Good timing. I got this email today from the SCQ:
Quote
"We could avoid going to FCS at the end of the month and having someone else decide our parenting plan if you are willing to discuss this before then. Are you?

We could also avoid going to court in Feb. if we can come to an agreement on a different parenting plan and if you have gotten the house appraised. Do you think you will be able to get the house appraised soon? If you are waiting on something from me I'm not sure what it is so let me know.

With both of these things on the way to going to court do you think you are going to be able to discuss a financial agreement outside of the lawyers (until they really need to be involved)?"

I haven't decided how to respond yet. I think I will wind up negotiating with her via email, but I have an appointment scheduled with Jennifer to figure out how best to respond to this and the other stuff I found out.

So, I think I'm doing pretty well. I feel good most of the time. I had a great session with my IC yesterday, and she agrees that I am doing well. The stuff I learned makes me feel better about what I'm doing (i.e., Plan B) and gives me resolve to keep going a while longer (so long as it's what Jennifer recommends).

It's interesting, though. I was at a business dinner tonight with a bunch of people I didn't know. I was able to be light and engaging and funny. I wound up sitting next to the HR person, and we chatted about stuff, and I wound up telling her about my situation (I had already told her I evacuated from the fires with only my cat and later told her I have kids and then felt the need to clarify).

She wound up telling me about her divorce. Fifteen years of marriage, one daughter, aged 11. Bang--she gets the "It's not working, I want a divorce" speech, including ILYBINILWY bit. As I probed, it's clear to me that infidelity was at the root of it, but she didn't know that at the time and wound up getting divorced. He didn't want to try MC, talking to him was like talking to a brick wall--the whole script. Now she's over it and happy with her life and looking back on how things maybe weren't all that great. She is Done. The whole thing started for her in the middle of 2006. D-Day for me was at the end of 2005.

I'm not sure why I posted that, other than that it's fresh in my mind. I don't regret what I've done so far and don't imagine that I ever will.

Thanks again for asking, Bugs. And James, you're getting pretty good at giving advice around here.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Still got your 2x4s handy? - 01/16/08 01:16 PM
I dunno about how good I'm getting with the advice thing bro. I'm just one of the blind guys holding hands with the next blind guy trying to figure out which one of us is leading this crazy conga line.

I'm glad though if anything I'm saying or doing is helping you. I've tried very hard to take a little quip I saw on a church sign to heart: Your life is a sermon, what kind of sermon are you giving?

I do know this though.. You're probably one of the strongest individuals I know having hung in there like you have, still loving your family and wanting your M for the right reasons. I doubt we'll ever know how many people your perseverance has inspired. You're giving a good sermon brother.

Quote
I don't regret what I've done so far and don't imagine that I ever will.

To me, this is the key. This is the best sign of healing IMO that you can look yourself in the mirror in the morning and -know- that you gave yesterday everything you had, and that you'll do the same for today.

No sudden movements when the gerbil is looking at you.
Posted By: LilSis Re: Still got your 2x4s handy? - 01/17/08 01:48 PM
What have you decided?

Isn't today a mediation day?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Still got your 2x4s handy? - 01/18/08 06:42 AM
No, the mediation is on the 28th. Yesterday was the session with Jennifer. I didn't do anything until after I'd talked to her.

Let's see. Jennifer agreed that avoiding a FTF was probably a good idea, especially since I think we can probably reach an agreement without it.

She was somewhat encouraged about the OM cake-eating but was but was confident that the SCQ would be able to rationalize it somehow (on the basis of their TRUE connection). So, there's no point in trying to make sure the SCQ finds out about it (don't lunge at the gerbil). Pretty much all the things I knew were bad ideas but mentioned anyway she confirmed were bad ideas, only she was much nicer about it than BR is.

She recommended that I send the SCQ another letter professing that the door is still open. Not a usual tactic, but there's nothing to lose at this point, plus it's hard to see how it could hurt (The only thing it could hurt is my pride, but I don't have a whole lot of use for that.) She suggested some lines, but they're in my notes, and I'm getting sleepy. If anyone is interested, I'll post the text before I send it off to the SCQ.

We talked some about how Plan B is supposed to work and personal recovery vs marital recovery, but since I'm not convinced my ideas are more than three-quarters-baked (talking to BR will do this to you), I think I'll keep them to myself for the moment.

She wants me to keep going. We're waiting for the affair to end, which it almost certainly will. POSOM and the SCQ won't wind up married.

So this morning I responded positively to the SCQ's email about negotiation. Said we could negotiate the parenting plan. That since I don't want a divorce, I hadn't made any kind of financial proposal and had been waiting for her to do so.

She responded fairly quickly with a reasonable breakdown. The list included Christmas ornaments and copies of videos/photos, however, which was triggering for me. It's making it hard for me to think about writing any kind of love-letter to the SCQ right now, but I'll manage somehow.

Thanks again for checking in.
Man, talk about draining. Some email back-and-forth about the parenting plan:

Quote
SDG: Yes, I am willing to discuss the parenting plan

SCQ: I've sent you 2 different parenting plan proposals in the past and both of them you have said not now, talk about it later or just not responded. If you want me to send them again I can.

SDG: I've explained why I don't want to change the current setup. It's important to me to have some weekend time with the kids every week. It is better for our children. The kids are happy with the current schedule. If you want to take the kids to Arizona to see your parents, just say that, and I will gladly give you the time. I have told you this. I really don't see where you have justified a change in the schedule other than that it is inconvenient for you. I'm sorry, but divorce is not a convenient thing.

My proposal is that we designate one special weekend every month, and it alternate between full weekends and split-squad weekends.

SCQ: I'm not asking you not to see the kids every week. Having full weekends is not about convenience. It is about having enough quality time with the kids without having to reduce what is done during a weekend because it cannot fit into what is essentially 1 day. The time they have now on the weekend is short and they are switching too much. They don't even get a chance to truly relax on the weekend because both of us are probably doing things with them each weekend. Even completing a Monopoly game hasn't been possible on the weekend because the time is too short. Also going to AZ is not the only reason to need a full weekend for something. I took them to Huntington Beach on a Saturday since my parents told me on Friday that they were there and I had to cut the visit short because I needed to get them back to you. These things will continue to come up for both of us whether they are last minute like that or planned.

Right now in a week they switch 3 or 4 times depending on the week. Changing to full weekends reduces the switching to 2 or 3 depending on the week.

We can still work split squad in the schedule too.

Your proposal of one full weekend every 4 months (3 times a year) is not frequent enough. How about full weekends all the time except one weekend a month that is split squad. The spilt squad could alternate each month with whose full weekend it falls on.

SDG: In my opinion and in that of child development
specialists, it is not good for young children to go
too long without seeing a parent, and five days is too
long. Full weekends will do that on a regular basis.

I am not persuaded by any of your arguments. The kids
like seeing each of us each weekend. They have plenty
of time to relax. The switching isn't what's hurting
them. The schedule may not be convenient, but it's
what is best for DS8 and DD4.

On the Huntington Beach thing, if you had told me the
night before, I would have let you keep them. Like I
have told you, when there are special circumstances, I
am willing to be flexible.

Some day, when DD4 is older, I will be more receptive
to full weekends. As it is, my proposal was already a
concession from what I want.

SCQ: 5 days is not too long. Guess we will go to FCS and let someone else decide. You are not flexible but only interested in yourself.

The last came in about an hour ago, so I am triggered. This is what I get for negotiating directly with her. So many possible responses.

"I think it's clear to everyone, including your children, who is only thinking about themself."

or

"I just asked DS8, and he likes the schedule the way it is. How is that me thinking about myself?"

So sick of this. Plan FU calling to me.

Sigh. I'll put the kids to bed and soldier on.
Keep your head up man.

If you are anxious, triggered, in doubt, or unsure.. pray.. and then wait for an answer.

You're understandibly triggered.. but it looks like SCQ is getting her 'final word' in the same way that the Ice Queen was about a month ago.. she's 'aggressively' pushing off by punting the blame for how uncomfortable this situation is off on you. You -know- you aren't being the unreasonable one here. You -know- you are doing what you feel is in the best interest of your children (and you're absolutely right IMO).

You're being a good dad, and honestly in attempting to engage her in a respectful way like this you are -showing- that you are trying to be a good husband. There's a difference between being a good husband and father, and being a doormat to give in to whatever SCQ wants.

Examine your responses.. are they emotional responses or are they logical ones.. what kind of result do you really think either of those will net you? Plan FU is not a 'friend of good conversation' or part of the 'rules for successful negotiation'.

Don't know what Jennifer has said to you about attmpting to 'negotiate' with WS.. but she told me to use words like 'I'm not enthusiastic about that.. I hear you saying.. how would you feel about.. I'd love it if..' etc..

Honestly I've found already that using those sorts of things even in email negotiations with WW has proven somewhat successful.
((((sd))))

I'm really sorry that you are triggered.

Back away. Go dark. Please.

You threw this out there. I suspect you knew she wouldn't agree...since she never has. So no surprises. But you gave it a shot; you probably felt that's what you needed to do.

I remember you saying previously that you'd like to avoid mediation because it gets so expensive. This isn't working, either. Every interaction is hurting you. Banging your head against a brick wall results in injury.

IMO, at this point, it's worth your peace of mind to have it mediated. Let this issue get settled, and then go deep dark. Get your intermediary in place now, so that as soon as it's done, you don't ever have to deal with SCQ again.

It is conceivable that you won't get your preference through mediation, either, but I imagine that you will have some peace in knowing that you did all you could. That's enough. That's all you have control over.

Once this is done and settled, and you are TRULY dark, REALLY TRULY dark, then you will regain your footing. It's too slippery, this quasi-Plan B; too fraught with danger.

Get your distance and keep your distance.

Think of it this way: SCQ is like dry ice--cold and dangerous. If you touch her, you will burn. If you get too close, you might get frostbite. The area just around her is frozen and brittle. The ground is slick with ice. If you stay close for too long, you might get hypothermia.

She's dangerous, sd. Get away.

You can't thaw her out. She made herself this way, and she's keeping herself this way.

Get away, so that you can recover from the damage that she's already inflicted. You have frostbitten fingers and toes. You are in pain from the exposure.

Get away from the source of pain and injury. Protect yourself.

That is the very first step. All the rest of it...the letting go, the acceptance, the healing...all that can be worked on in time...but not when you are stuck in this dangerous place.

Do not try to rationalize that you are doing this to save your marriage. The "purpose" of Plan B is not relevant at this time. Plan B is DARK. You are NOT dark. Thus you are not in Plan B. So whatever its purpose does not matter.

So spend this week getting things in order...find an intermediary. Make sure your attorney knows where you stand. Re-do a Plan B letter if that's advised by Jennifer or others. Gather your resources. Prepare yourself for the mediation with your best arguments, and go in there and fight for your family in the ONLY way you can.

The minute you walk out the door after the mediation, you disappear.

IT WILL STILL HURT!! Recovering from severe frostbite or a third-degree burn is painful, even when the source of the injury is no longer an immediate threat.

Even if SCQ came running back TODAY, heart in hand, repentant...YOU would still need to heal from those wounds. Either way, YOU need to heal from those wounds. She can't fix them. She might be able to put salve on them...but they will still be there, and still need to mend.

Standing there before her, exposed, asking her--or expecting her--to put salve on the wounds that she caused...is just causing you more damage.

I'm as much talking to myself as I am talking to you about this. Look, I have been dark for 10 months. I am STILL healing my wounds. This is SLOW and painful. I understand your impatience...SO MUCH. You want it to END. I want it to END. I want to feel nothing for WH.

But I do. I still have feelings for him. And they hurt. I hurt.

Trying to thaw her out, or FUing...none of that will hasten YOUR healing. The only thing that you can do RIGHT NOW to hasten your healing is to get away from the source of injury. Even once you do that, there is still the long SLOW painful process of healing.

Please think about it. I know I rambled, and I'm not articulating this very well...I just don't want to see you continuing to get hurt.
I think your correspondence with SCQ even triggered me! I have to agree with Sis on this, that it may be time to really sink into the darkness. No one can be sure, but this back and forth could be enabling this A. Even if it's not, it's hurting you, and that is just not good for YOU.

Let the lawyers handle these correspondences, so that they are on RECORD. Fight for you kids, thru your lawyer. There is no reason to be speaking to SCQ. She SOUNDS soooo much like PWC did. HE wanted to act as if I was being unreasonable by trying to protect our son from him and his shoddy decisions (not that I put it that way to him).

You pay Jennifer, so listen to her; you pay the lawyers, so let them do this bidding, with YOUR interests at heart. SCQ is self serving, she gives not one sh!te about anything but herself, even to include the children.

(((guy smiley)))
Thanks, my friends. I'm better this morning. Posting it out helps.

James, those are good tips on negotiating. Jennifer did touch on that concept, but your reinforcement is a good one. I haven't been doing that very well.

Sis, I hear what you are saying, and I really appreciate your concern for me. I know the way is fraught with peril. If it's any consolation, I'm following Jennifer's advice to the letter. The FTF mediation is court-mandated. I wanted to get out of it if possible. FTF is probably going to be way more triggering than the emails, so it was worth a shot.

I didn't include anything about financial negotiating, but those started off well, so it is probably worth it from that standpoint alone.

It's draining, but I'm doing better than I sound. I had a really good day on Saturday. It was by-myself time, and I made the most of it. I'm hoping for more of the same this afternoon.

Quote
No one can be sure, but this back and forth could be enabling this A.

Interesting thought, SL. My being "difficult" about weekends is something for them to fret about (I heard about it from OMW, who heard it from her MIL). He has full weekends with his kids, so I'm sure he's pressuring her to get the same. I expect that's what is driving this whole thing. I have examined my motivations, and I really believe that I'm not being driven by "thwarting" her.

I'm still doing what I think is right and best for my children, which includes continuing my Plan B, even if it does hurt me some of the time. My life was charmed up until all of this nightmare started. If this is what God wants from me now, then this is what I'll do. I have learned many lessons, even if there was frequent kicking and screaming beforehand.

You guys will like the email I got from her the other day. We went a long time without any communication, but I guess since the negotiations have opened up, she feels like she can/should communicate more stuff to me. Get this:

Quote
DS8 asked me to talk to you about the chocolate milk.
He says that you are trying to change the chocolate
he uses to carnation instead of Hershey's. He says he
doesn't like carnation and wants to use Hershey's.
Obviously he thinks it is an issue. Are you trying to
switch him? If so why?

How about this for a reply (No, I won't send it):

DS8 asked me to talk with you about having your adultery partner's daughters sleep in his bedroom. He says he doesn't like having them there. Obviously he thinks it is an issue. Are you trying to get him used to adultery by forcing him to participate? If so, why?

Okay, Sis. I take your point. This stuff all hurts. I have to walk the high wire (or is the hot coals walk) a bit more and can then go dark again. If it's bad enough, I'll go back to the intermediary (the comment about me being selfish was poisonous; other than that it hasn't been deliberately hurtful). I chatted with Jennifer about my not having an intermediary, by the way, and she really didn't seem concerned.

So, after I posted last night and calmed down a bit, I was able to put together the "This isn't what I want, it doesn't have to be this way, if you have even a thought about stopping your relationship with POSOM, I promise not to hold the past against you, I want to build a new life with you, it's not too late" card and sent it with the kids this morning.

In a while, I will send a "I'm sorry you think I'm being selfish" email and try to include some more compromise words.

In the mean time, I'm going to do some woodworking and other stuff for me.
I know Jennifer's got your back, and that's why I mentioned it. If possible and it doesn't hurt your case in court, going darker could help YOU, that's all.

The email about the chocolate sauce is killer. Isn't THAT part of the reason she is called Sippy Cup Queen in the first place. First it was sterlity, now it's consistency with chocolate sauce. What's next? The brand of underwear?
Dagnabit! I was doing great at work and you give me this.

Quote
DS8 asked me to talk to you about the chocolate milk.
He says that you are trying to change the chocolate
he uses to carnation instead of Hershey's. He says he
doesn't like carnation and wants to use Hershey's.
Obviously he thinks it is an issue. Are you trying to
switch him? If so why?

You know I will have to take a shot at a reply for this one!
I was counting on you, amigo.

I can be patient, though.
...SL, tapping her fingers, waiting for Chrisner to respond...
No, no. Don't rush the man. Let it percolate.

Besides, I need my head to clear a little bit so that I can play, too.
I hear you, guy. I'll be patient, especially because I want for you to have more time to let the trigger pass a bit more, too.
Here’s my first cut. A little rough but it may give us something to work with.



To Her Most Regal Highness, The Royal Queen of Sippy Cups;

I apologize for not informing you earlier regarding my ongoing experimentation and analysis of the various aspects and effects of chocolate milk on sub-adolescent children.

As you know, nutritionists have long criticized chocolate milk for its high sugar content and how the oxalic acid supplied by chocolate reacts with the calcium in the milk producing calcium oxalate, thus preventing the calcium from being absorbed in the intestine.

Being a concerned parent I thought it prudent to compare and contrast the various manufactures of chocolate milk in regards to their sugar content and filler ingredients and to calcium absorption. Of particular note is the use of carrageenins (a family of linear sulphated polysaccharides extracted from red seaweeds) in all of these products.

Currently I have focused my research on the chocolate milk products of Hershey Corp (DS8’s current favorite for flavor and texture) and Carnation. By the way if DS8 mentions the projectile vomiting incident and the Carnation product, I assure you that it was not any flaw in the Carnation mix as it probably had more to do with the total volume consumed.

Although I have made significant progress in my tests and analysis gathering I am certain that this will be a fairly long term study. I have not yet begun to research the North American products of Beatrice Foods Canada Ltd, Borden, Dairyland Canada, Island Farms, Maola, Nesquick, Oak Farms, Archer Farms, Ovaltine (that’s the one from that funny Christmas Story movie) Puity Dairy Ltd., Reid’s Dairy and Lucerne.

After reviewing the above, I can expand my research to include European and international manufacturers such as Milo, Vindija, Bravo, Chocomel, Friesland Foods, Kemps, MacArthur Dairy, Meadow Fresh of New Zealand and Anchor Swiss Maid.

In all I expect the tests to remain ongoing until DS8 is approximately DS26 (maybe early DS27). Perhaps less once I start to involve DD4 into the research. In addition, some time may be cut from the experiments with the inclusion of the 476 lab rats I have on order from Jax Mice and Services. Your half of the bill from Jax is in the mail.

By the way, I think you should note the progress of manufacturers using the same carrageenans in chocolate milk as in the production of sexual lubricants and microbicides. As you probably know, there are indications that a carrageenan-based gel may offer some protection against HSV-2 transmission by binding to the receptors on the herpes virus thus preventing the virus from binding to cells. Researchers have shown that a carrageenan-based gel effectively prevented HSV-2 infection at a rate of 85% in a mouse model. A clinical trial by Population Council examining whether a carrageenan-based product known as Carraguard is effective as a topical microbicide for blocking HIV infection in women was completed in March 2007. Results are expected in early 2008.
Just a heads up for you and POSUM.


Once again, thanks for your ongoing concern for the children, their welfare and safety.

Yours in safe parenting,

SDguy

PS: The above mentioned studies and their possible connection with the recent 2-for-1 coupons offered by Carnation for their product is purely coincidental.
That was awe-inspiring. One question - was Bosco left out intentionally or is it somehow included under another parent company that was listed?
BAAAAAhahahahaha...now that THERE is funny stuff. OMG...ROTFLMAO, Chrisner!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Don't forget the Organic milks or the SOY varieties.

Also, you may want to consider using a research model that employs NUDE mice, instead of your garden variety, since they will not have an immunological response to the Alzet pump used to deliver the milk dosing...

Just a suggestion.
Good points SL.

We do need to add a mention of the cost of the 476 ALZET® Osmotic Pumps required.

But we need to go with Alzet as they require no external connections or researcher intervention during the entire delivery period. Their unique design helps researchers save critical time by eliminating the need for frequent animal handling and repetitive injection schedules. These dependable drug delivery systems have proven invaluable in predictably sustaining compounds at therapeutic levels, avoiding potentially toxic or misleading side effects and ensuring accurate research results. An assortment of sizes, flow rates and durations is available to meet a variety of research needs. A single ALZET pump provides up to 6 weeks of continuous infusion. (She may need to hear that if she baulks at the cost.)

However, we do need to be careful not to overload SCQ with too much extraneous data. Maybe SD should just go with the 2-for1 coupon story.
Too much jargon could send her over the deep end, and could cause a shift in focus to the aformentioned UNDERWEAR brands. I would hate to cause her more grief, considering the all-consuming nature of the milk thingy...
Ohh, I forgot Bosco. A good old New Jersey syrup. It's what they used for blood in the original black and white "Night of the Living Dead" movie.

"uunnngggggggg brrrrrraaaaaains" Sounds like a wayward.
Hilarious!!

I'm not from the East Coast - I only remember that b/c it was George Castanza's ATM card PIN. Yeah, yeah, I'm a Seinfeld fan.
Chris-
OMG! That was hilarious!
SD- I DARE you, YES, DARE you to send that response to SCQ! It would be hysterical!
And it may lighten the mood a bit... Just a thought! ;-)
LOL!
Oh my gawd. I needed this tonight. I haven't laughed like this in ages. SD, I especially liked your response. You seriously need to consider writing a book about this someday. Your WW is about as foggy as I've seen. What a hoot.
Yep, she's Foggy all right. It's just one more sign that Waywards just don't get it. I'm sure to her it makes perfect sense to want to discuss chocolate milk with me--in the SCQ's (typical Wayward's) desired world of friendly co-parenting, we would talk like this all the time. It's the kind of thing that Plan B takes away.

Great stuff, Chrisner, as usual. I would work in something on the lactose-free milk products except I'm a bit too close to it. Feeling okay today, though.

Here's the email I sent last night:

Quote
I'm sorry you think I'm being selfish and don't really understand
the comment. I can tell you with total sincerity that everything I'm
doing is because I believe it's what is best for DS8 and DD4.

DS8 told me again last night that he doesn't want to
change the weekend structure and that he likes seeing
each of us every weekend.

I was hoping that we could reach an agreement that we
could both live with. I offered a compromise from
what I really want, but your suggestion doesn't seem
like a compromise at all. Isn't there something in
between that you could agree to?

I know that it has too much of me in it, but I would still prefer to avoid the FTF mediation. Not at the cost of totally giving in on weekends, though. If we go to mediation, we go to mediation.
SD,

Thanks for stopping by my thread. You continue to be a source of inspiration for me. I'm amazed at how long you have managed to hang in there. It has to be hard with children because the A is rubbed in your face constantly.

The thing that makes it somewhat easier for me is that I have no small children, and the A is taking place 600 miles away. I don't have to look at it everyday.

One question - is the OMW willing to take him back? Almost sounds like OM is having second thoughts about your WW.
Be careful Guy..

I think SCQ may actually be 'playing' you... I'm seeing a pattern here between the sippy cups, the chocolate, and the underwear... well, not so much the underwear.. but she's obviously trying to document her parental superiorities via email.. and baiting you into an exchange.

I think it'd be prudent now to plan B all laundry room and kitchen related kid talk.. find an intermediary -quickly-.. Might I suggest Elmo.. I can think of nobody else better for your situation to be an intermediary.. sexually ambiguous, loves kids, and can think on her level.
Quote
One question - is the OMW willing to take him back? Almost sounds like OM is having second thoughts about your WW.

Yes, she would. It's pretty clear to me that he's been cake-eating all this time. She told me they had a huge conversation about their relationship on Christmas Eve. That she did most of the talking, but that the next day he said he wanted to continue the conversation. Lunch together. Soup when he's sick. Cake.

Were I to dwell on that aspect of it, it could be pretty frustrating. She's been enabling him all this time. Every time I talk to her, she says she's finished, that she's going to plan B him, that she can't take it anymore, but then he drags her back in. Plus, she knew about the affair months before I did and didn't tell me. Had I known then . . . .

But hey, I'm not dwelling on that. Trying not to. It's just hard for me to let go of this stuff when reconciliation is still what I want. Especially hard when it rears its ugly head at me like with the custody stuff. I have to be extra good to myself.

Quote
trying to document her parental superiorities via email

Maybe, but I don't really think so. She has never wavered from 50% custody and isn't trying to screw me financially. I think it is what it appears to be--she wants to discuss parenting with me, either to talk about stuff or correct me.

I usually just ignore emails like that, not that there are many of them. When I'm feeling triggered and need to vent some stuff, I post 'em on here because I know people get a kick out of them, and Chrisner is pretty reliable for some serious entertainment value from them. I guess if she ever finds my thread on here, I'm toast.

I guess it's possible she could try to use the fact that I won't engage in that kind of parental dialog with her against me with the mediator. Maybe I'll print out a copy of the email response I Didn't send her and have it with me in case something like that happens.

SCQ: Look, I sent him this email about Important Parenting Stuff and he didn't even reply to it.

SDG: Yeah, it felt like she was questioning my abilities as a parent, and this is what came to mind for me (hands to mediator). I didn't think she would want to receive this email, so I figured it best if I didn't say anything at all.

Quote
It has to be hard with children

Yes and no. Hard because that's what keeps me in it at all. They are the only thing attaching me to the SCQ right now. I believe I am over her. If she doesn't return, I personally will probably come out ahead. I don't miss her so much as I miss having someone. I can do better.

Not hard because they are my children, and I would do anything for them. It's what they deserve. I have a responsibility to them. The SCQ and I owe them taking a real shot at making our marriage work, and we just haven't done that yet.
I agree, you can't dwell on it, but it sure sounds like that A is on the flipside. I would bet that if she Plan B'd his [censored], he would fall off that fence.

Funny you said that you were over her. Sometimes I wonder if it's possible to love that person again after all that has been done. Those here who have recovered say that it is very possible, but I think most say that it takes years to get beyond it all. I can certainly see how that is true.

You are doing a wonderful job though. You have put your children first, and that is the most important. They will remember that in the coming years.

OK, now go do something for yourself tonight. We'll declare Tuesday the "do something for me" night. I'm watching American Idol. What will you do???
Quote
I would bet that if she Plan B'd his [censored], he would fall off that fence.

I agree completely and gently told her as much. Plus, it would make *her* feel a ****** of a lot better, too. He's totally stringing her along. It's her call, though.

Jennifer: What we're doing is waiting patiently on the sidelines for the affair to end, and the fact that he's not a nice guy works in our favor.

Quote
Sometimes I wonder if it's possible to love that person again after all that has been done.

What I tell people is that I do not love the SCQ right now, but I know that I could. I believe it completely or else I wouldn't be doing this.

For myself. Let's see. I did yoga at lunchtime. I thought about trying to get a massage today but waited too long. Physical therapy for my shoulder (still hurts) tomorrow and Thursday, so massage on Friday, I'm thinking.

Grocery shopping. Some housecleaning. Then fun stuff--woodworking or maybe a movie.
Sorry about that Guy.. was really just playing along and wasn't really serious about what she might be trying to do with the chocolate milk email.

Was just razzin the old man <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Aaahhh, you gotta love a man that does grocery shopping and some house cleaning. You'll be quite the catch SD <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Quote
Was just razzin the old man

Ouch. I am too close to this.
It sounds like you really are close to this one, guy.

I hear you, about the kids. That was our connection. Our son kept me going, but our recovery is all about us. I have STAYED, in some moments, for the sake of our son, but I battle on for me and my husband. I promised him I would when I married him, so I'm giving it all I've got in any one moment.

Oh, and I'm 36 today...

(((guy)))
Time to update that sig then SL...

Happy Birthday (sorry for the TJ there Guy)

It's ok.. I'm way too close to my situation too at times, but I'm not supposed to be in Plan B either.

*wags finger*

Ok.. I'm done flogging with the damp spaghetti noodle.
Ok, James, update complete
The email negotiation is very draining, but I think it beats a FTF session with a mediator, where I might be triggered enough to LB. "The reason you really want this is so that you can force the kids to participate in your adultery without having to admit it to anyone. What's the big deal with the secrecy and the lying? Doing something you're ashamed of?"

I've had a couple of more emails from her. It will be nice when this is over.

My parents arrive tonight, and the kids come back over, so that will be good.
SD,

Why aren't you using an intermediary? SCQ wouldn't have to know about it. But, YOU could be protected from her nonsense.

Let someone else screen your e-mails. They could just send you the important stuff w/ the jabs editted out.

~Marsh
Hi, Marsh

Thanks for dropping by. I was using an intermediary at one point, but her content had become so jab-free that everything came through and it seemed like more trouble than it was worth.

Even this milk thing is pretty innocuous--she just wants to have a conversation about parenting. Trying to get a need met, but I won't play.

Any content is triggering, though, so I think I'll go back to the intermediary once the mediation bit is over, which will be soon, I hope.
Ah, ok.

Quote
which will be soon, I hope.


Me too.

Hang in there.

~ Marsh
Thanks, Marsh. I always appreciate your stopping in.
Aye, yi, yi. Leave for a few days and there is a chocolate milk crisis!

I hope all goes well when you hit mediation, sdguy.

Mediation was tough for me. It meant laying all my cards on the table and telling WH exactly what I wanted. This is CLEARLY a man I could no longer trust, yet I was laying everything on the table for him to pick through and change. He hadn't even thought of some of the things I had, but by laying them on the table they were brought to his attention.

As you know, mediation was a bust for me. Valuable lessons were learned there, though. I won't be repeating the same mistakes.

Glad to hear your folks are coming and the kids are returning. Isn't there a saying about idle minds?

I'm glad chrisner was here to give you a laugh about the chocolate milk - waywards are so silly. Seriously, who cares what chocolate milk you use? I imagine your DS would make it clear to you if he disliked something.

I tend to be a bit suspicious, but I doubt she did it solely as a caring parent. "Poke, poke....you still out there my BH? Can I still get to you? 'cause if I can, you still care. And I like it when you care, it makes me feel important." Cake....that's what that is. She gets to mess around and do what she wants and then gets to pretend what a kind caring parent she is - points it out in hopes that you (and others) will admire her for that quality. She NEEDS to be seen as a good parent - even if she isn't one.

How uncomfortable would it be for her NOT to be able to point out her "superior" parenting? As uncomfortable as it is for you not to be able to educate her about infidelity?

Hmmm....I think that was a vote for a deeper Plan B.

I understand that mediation, young kids, etc makes it difficult. It's your call. Can you think of other options that would help you go darker but jeopardize too much for you.

Just thoughts.......

Take care.

Fox
Her Foxiness! Thanks for the thoughts.

Quote
I imagine your DS would make it clear to you if he disliked something.

Oh, he did. I heard him. I expect he groused about it some at her place, and prompting questions from her, which ultimately led to the email. Exactly the way he groused about POSOM's daughters sleeping in his room.

That whole email is a textbook example on the importance of Plan B. It illustrates the three major functions:

1) protecting myself from the WS behavior (her thinking she has a right to audit/correct/discuss my parenting behavior given what she's doing is hurtful to me)

2) protecting the WS from your desire to LB (my instinctive response to her email)

and 3) ceasing meeting the WS's emotional needs (No, I will not discuss chocolate milk with you)

I guess two out of three isn't bad, but darker would be better. As usual.
((Sdguy))

Haven't been on for awhile. Just sending good thoughts your way.

I need to update my thread if I can even find it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Had my court date this past Tuesday. Divorce will be final 21 days after the judge signs the papers. Just hope it doesn't fall on my DS bday (2/12) or Valentines day.

Still
Still, good to see you here, maybe an update?
Hey Silent,

Need to find my last post. It's been a rough couple of weeks. Licking my wounds per se.

Still
SD,

Many thanks for the podcast info. Wow. I listened to Car Talk last night. Will download the Unger report next. I may end up with an iPod yet.....
The thing about the iPod is that it lets you listen anywhere. Waiting at the doctor's office. You can download the back editions and have, like, six months worth of Unger Reports. Probably better to be listening to that one mobile so that you don't have to worry about cleaning coffee (or whatever else you're drinking) off your monitor.

Highly recommended.

Thanks for stopping by, Still. An update would be good. It might make you feel better, too. Just start a new thread.
Well, if Unger is any funnier than CarTalk, I might be cleaning more than coffee. May be changing clothes at that point <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I better listen to this Unger report soon.
I had a little more back and forth with the SCQ over the weekend custody thing. She called my proposal of six full weekends per year "nonsense" and reminded me that her proposals had been for either 52 or 26. On Wednesday, I proposed 12. She didn't bother to respond--probably trying to get even for all the stuff I don't respond to (like chocolate milk).

So it looks like a fun session of mediation on Monday! I anticipate that it will go well, but I'll be anxious until then. Plenty of stuff to distract me, though.

Sigh.
SD,

Good luck. Having a little challenge with my WS too. They have a mind of their own.....
(((Sdguy)))

Continue to believe in what you know is right for your children. I'll be praying for you tomorrow.

((((hugs))))

Still
Thanks Still and CL.
Just wanted to drop by and give you my support. I hope all goes well today. At least this part will be over, and you may be able to get a little darker. I like Marsh's idea of using the intermediary without SCQ knowing. Honestly, her emails, however silly sometimes, are mostly about the kids, so you would probably receive them ALMOST as is, if they went thru intermediary.
Good luck today SD. Update when you can.
Thinkin about you Guy.. hope things go well today.
Thanks, guys

I'm feeling pretty good, all things considered. I slept pretty well last night, and I could probably even eat something. The mediation is at 1:00 (PST, of course).

I'm trying to look ahead and figure out what to say and what not to say. Calm. Cool. Light.

And. . . remember to breathe!
Back now. I survived. I think I did okay.

I got in to the mediation office, stood in the line, acknowledged the SCQ with a smile and responded to her brief 'hi.' All the seats in the waiting room were full, so I went back to the alternate waiting room (which suited me perfectly).

Before I sat down, I went back out to the SCQ. I took her a bill, and as I came up to her, politely explained what it was, and then went back to the other room, I realized OMG, I still love this woman.

In the other room, I was able to listen to my iPOD (Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me), which prevented me from being antsy while waiting. Didn't have to look at the SCQ.

Then we got in with the mediator (same one as last time). We each had a turn talking. The SCQ doesn't think that weekends are working well enough and wants full weekends but would concede to 24 full weekends per year (I get one and she gets one per month).

I said that things are working fine, that the kids like the way it is now and don't want a change, that I don't want any changes but would concede to 12 full weekends per year (we get one every other month).

Lots of discussion and justifications about how our proposals are better. No one scored any serious blows. We couldn't agree. The mediator didn't side any particular way and wouldn't give an indication of which way she would recommend. The mediator thought we were really close, but it became clear we weren't going to reach a consensus.

We spent the whole time dancing around the fact that the SCQ really wants full weekends to make adultery more convenient. She implied a couple of times that I'm trying to control what she can and can't do with the kids. She brought up Memorial Day and that it was too big a hassle to have to do that every time she wants a full weekend, and I said something like "and the lies," to which she took exception and said "There were no lies."

The SCQ and I basically agreed that we were likely to abide by whatever the mediator recommends in an effort to avoid court. The report probably won't be available for a couple of weeks (like a week before court is scheduled). I don't know what will happen, but I can live with the results either way.

Then we were done. I spent most of the time not looking at her. When I did, though, I could see a big rash breaking out on her face and chest. It calmed down when we were finished.

We were more or less walking next to each other on the way out, and finally I said "I can't help myself, so I'm going to ask. When POSOM was sick a few weeks ago and called OMW to make him soup and she did, did you know about that?"

"I'm not sure," said the SCQ. Clearly she didn't know but was cool about it. She hemmed and hawed a little bit "I don't remember. I remember when he was sick."

We crossed the street and were about to part ways when I said "You know, it doesn't have to be this way. It was nice to see you."

"Thanks," she said.

"I've never lied to you," I added. And she said "I didn't lie to you either." which threw me for a loop. When DIDN'T she lie to me? Waywards. I think she was really rattled by the whole mediation thing, hence the kneejerk "I didn't lie" defensiveness.

Of course, it meant my point hadn't been made, so as I was driving away I saw her still walking to her car. I pulled up and called her over, and she came.

"I think there are a lot of things you don't know," I said, trying to get the point across that he's a liar. Predictably, she said "Like what?" Now it was my turn to hem and haw.

"Look around and you'll find them. It's what men in affairs do. They lie on both sides and string both women along. . . ." I tried. She wanted specifics. "Obviously, you think you know something."

I tried another tack. "Look, I don't really know much. It's not like I've been obsessing and keeping track of things." but she wasn't buying. "What do you know?"

So I told her the bit about OMW having had lunch the other day and the Christmas Eve conversation about rebuilding their marriage. She said "I knew about that one. I didn't know about lunch."

I looked her in the eye. "I think he's lying to you," I said. She nodded and started to walk away. "And I won't!" I yelled.

So there it is. Not exactly how I would have drawn it up, but it could have been worse. Maybe the bit about his lying will sink in. If not, I don't see that it could have possibly made things any worse.

I'm going to sink back into my darkness. It's Miller Time.

Except substitute a gin and tonic for Miller.
Hey SD.

Maybe you should talk to Jennifer again. It may be time for a shift in your strategy.

SCQ is soooooo passive. It's like she is just floating aimlessly on the inner tube of life on the lazy Apple River.

Sounds like you did fine. I have my own thoughts but I won't air them here.

What is the timeline now?
SD:

You had the time to take a shot at the SCQ and all you could ocme up with was:


HE lies?


WTF?

Did you plan on THAT for eight-ten weeks?

Not stop her, turn her to face you and tell her that you "love her?"

That "this thing doesn't have to happen"

That "your who I really want"

Instead, she is asking YOU: "what does he LIE about?"

The discussions between YOU and HER should be about YOU and HER. Not POSOM.

How about: "All our years together, and our family, pulled apart by a bureaucrat in some windowless office downtown?" "Is THAT what you really want?"

SD: Sorry about the 2x4.

When I read this last night....

I just thought: "Wow, what a disconnect between the third line of your post and what happened when you finally decided to address her."

IS this a fight to SAVE your marriage or just make her life difficult?

JMVHO

Sorry your stuck in this lousy sitch. Really.

LG
Thanks, Chris and LG.

Interesting perspective, LG. I had considered the lay-it-on-the-line FTF I-love-you approach and discussed it with Jennifer. What she recommended was a letter expressing that it's not too late, that we can make a great life for our kids, and that my arms are still open. When I asked Jennifer whether I should give that FTF, she said no, there would be too much risk that I would mess it up or get drawn off track.

So I wrote up the card Jennifer described and gave it to her just over a week ago. During the negotation part, when I was explaining my point of view on something, I said (with some emotion) "I don't want a divorce." She knows.

I don't know how many more times I can lay it on the line with FTF I love you, please don't do this, just to get the Blank Stare of Fog (which is really what I should expect).

I've tried to put my faith in Jennifer. Her advice is that we're waiting on the sideline for the affair to die. I don't think she would have wanted me to say the bits that I did about POSOM's lying--she really needs to hear that from someone else or figure it out herself, but that wasn't happening. There is no one else, so I took a chance.

I was actually expecting 2x4s on saying anything to her about POSOM. I lunged at the gerbil. It felt like "I shouldn't be doing this, but I'm going to do it anyway."

Chris, with the SCQ's passivity, I have always suspected that I would need to shift back to Plan A at some point, because she will never figure it out enough to show up on my door. She will either continue to live with whatever scraps POSOM gives her or, if and when it falls apart, implode in a scary way.

I don't think the time has come yet, but it might be nearing. I'll keep working with Jennifer. I'm also interested in your other thoughts.

The timeline. Court is Feb 25, but it's clear that neither of us really want to go to court. I think we will abide by whatever the mediator recommends, which we won't know for a couple of weeks. As far as final settlement, we have batted proposals around by email. She can accelerate this any time she wants.

I'm going to try to Be Still in the mean time.

Jennifer actually recommended sending letters every month or so. The only risk is me getting too close and getting hurt when they hit the FogWall. I *think* I understand and am on top of this risk. I recognize that I may find out the hard way, though.

Thanks again for stopping by, LG. I was surprised when I realized I still love her. It kind of faded when we got into the negotiation part, even though I recognize how good we are together.
Hey SD,

I've also worked with Jennifer. She had me send a couple of letters, and gave me another one to "keep in my back pocket."

In October when I got basically got no reply from two of them, she told me to wait a year. The letter that I have in "my back pocket" is if he should make any attempt at contact at all.

Not sure how you feel, but it got to the point where I felt like anymore would basically be begging him to come back and cake-eat. I just have my own boundary and conditions that I need to adhere to for my own sanity and dignity. But then I don't have little ones involved either. Not sure how I would handle it in that sitch.

Have you thought about calling Steve? It sounds like his advice differs a little from Jennifer's.

It sounds like your WW is in a rut and will stay there until POSOM makes his move back home. Almost like she is incapable of making a decision on her own.

Maybe you should just go over there and tell her she's coming home and that's that! Bodily remove her, flatten out OM, and leave. Call the press first, get them there for the news, get publicity, get a book deal with movie deal to follow....

Just trying to cheer you up.
Quote
Maybe you should just go over there and tell her she's coming home and that's that! Bodily remove her, flatten out OM, and leave. Call the press first, get them there for the news, get publicity, get a book deal with movie deal to follow....

Just trying to cheer you up.

Yeah, kind of a Seven Brides for Seven Brothers thing. Just throw her over your shoulder and take her home.

Oh, but do flatten out POSOM.

I am up for a trip to San Diego!
LOL Chrisner. Can see SD driving over in his 4WD announcing "I'm here to git my woman!" It's worth a try SD. Nothing else has worked so far. What have you got to lose?

Don't know about you Chrisner, but I'm in the Midwest and this below 60 degress stuff just sucks. I'm up for a trip to San Diego too. Hey SD, aren't you near there? We can come help you. I'll drive the getaway truck.
Are you out there SD. I just got home from Bball and had a wonderful (gag) frozen dinner.

A slab-o-fish w/ mac&cheese.

How are you tonight?
Posted By: sdguy038 Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 01/30/08 05:52 AM
Sounds delicious.

I'm okay. Went to IC today. Maybe that will satisfy my need to rehash and analyze What Happened.

I'm wonder why I'm exhausted. I'm exhausted because I did something incredibly emotionally draining yesterday. Could/should I have done it differently? Maybe. I did what I did because I am who I am. If it costs me down the road, I can live with that.

That f#@%ing gerbil should be thankful I didn't use dynamite.

How was the game? Your guys still over-achieving?
Dinner, for me, last night was a lovely Nathan's HOt dog on potato roll with lotsa mustard (I was too lazy to dice onions). I was exhausted from the four hours that I was out and about, so cooking was totally out of the question. Work is going to be interesting next week...

SD, I have no comments on your interactions with SCQ. You lunged at the gerbil, and the gerbil was DRUGGED, and didn't budge. I don't think you'll be paying way down the road for this, really. SCQ will, for she is losing you, but you are only losing a shell of the woman you used to know, really.

I say, instead of dynamite, grab some hot sauce and blue cheese dressing, cook 'er up, and have buffaloed gerbil. Too soon? Probably. Sorry.
Hey, Guy Smiley

Glad to hear there were no losses at mediation. That's a small victory, right?

What I find interesting about your interaction with SCQ is that she did not defend POSOM. She asked you what he was lying about - she doesn't trust him, sdguy, believe it.

She didn't defend him and she didn't spew anger at you for suggesting that he lies.

I'm not going to say whether you should have or shouldn't have. Who am I to say?

She didn't give you the reaction you wanted (what did you want, BTW) but she didn't plunge a dagger into you either.

Another small victory, take them when you can.

Take care, sdguy.

Fox

p.s. Seems crazy that we still love them, doesn't it? Seeing WH at DD13's basketball game last week made me realize how easy it would be for me to slip right back into what we used to be. I also realize how dangerous that would be for me and DDs. Just interesting......that we still feel so much after all this time and all the hurt. Makes you wonder what makes one person capable or willing to forgive and someone else so unwilling or incapable.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 01/30/08 06:11 PM
Thanks, Fox

Quote
What I find interesting about your interaction with SCQ is that she did not defend POSOM. She asked you what he was lying about - she doesn't trust him, sdguy, believe it.

She didn't defend him and she didn't spew anger at you for suggesting that he lies.

It's why I'm not convinced it was necessarily a bad thing.

"You've been talking to OMW again?"

"You got that from OMW, right? She's nuts. She'll say anything."

"Don't you get it? It's not about me and him. You and I are through."

"Jeez, get over it already and move on with your life."

are all things she just as easily could have said. That she listened and seemed interested in what I had to say was actually *better* than I would have expected.

I didn't have a plan. I really wanted to know whether or not she knew about the soup and the lunch--I wanted to confirm what I thought I knew (information gathering). I didn't think through what would happen if I asked that question. Then, as I admitted to BR, I immediately fell down the slippery slope and tried to control the situation again.

Speaking of BR, if there any of you out there reading this and shaking your heads but have too much compassion to swing a 2x4 at me, rest assured that I have been thrashed via email by a professional.
I gotta say that I miss BR immensely. She gave me so much to think about, especially in terms of dropping the victim status, and taking the reigns in my own life.
Quote
Speaking of BR, if there any of you out there reading this and shaking your heads but have too much compassion to swing a 2x4 at me, rest assured that I have been thrashed via email by a professional.


I have no doubt. Must be nice to have all the answers and know exactly what someone SHOULDA done and then point it out offline so as not to be challenged.

Nevermind......sore spot for me.

You're human, you love the SCQ, it IS a slippery slope. I, for one, don't think less of you if you slip. You catch yourself, so I don't think you ought to be 2x4ed for it. You knew when you did it that it was a risk, you decided to take that risk and you deal with the consequences. It's life.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 01/30/08 07:19 PM
I invited the commentary from BR, so it's not like it was a hit and run. She was spot-on with most if not all of her analysis, so if it sounds like I'm complaining about it, I'm not.

Well, maybe a little. I said to her once "Don't I EVER get to be right?"

But, of course, it's not about being right.

Going to sneak out for a walk on the beach with a friend.
Quote
But, of course, it's not about being right.


Sometimes it IS about being right. It's about what is right for your family, your children, you, and for SCQ.

Why are you in this battle, sdguy?

To do what is RIGHT for all of you.

If you always accept being WRONG, even when you don't believe you are, will SCQ admire you? I don't think so.

You are standing for what you believe to be right. THAT is admirable.

I think there are times where you can be RIGHT and MARRIED.

SCQ admitted to herself that you may be right about POSOM. How do I know? She asked you what you knew - she took it in and did not defend. Why? Because deep down, she still trusts what you have to say. Especially if you didn't say it in anger or in a manipulative way....if she thought you brought it up because you care for her well being.......

JMHO,
Fox

Keep breathing....it isn't over yet.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/01/08 12:05 PM
SD,

Hey Guy! I don't have any great sage advice, any real commentary, no tips on how to avoid the face-plant after a big gerbil lunge, nor even a 2 x 4.

I *do* understand,,,and the best I have to offer are my prayers and hugs. {{{{{SG}}}}

Hope you were able to de-stress on the beach!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/01/08 08:48 PM
I'm doing pretty well. The trigger was all-consuming for a couple of days, but I'm better now and feeling really good. Maybe a little bit too hopeful, but not so much that I'm going to anything stupid.

Thanks for dropping by, and don't be a stranger, Bugs!
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/01/08 08:51 PM
A bunch of us got Bug Bombed today!
Quote
A bunch of us got Bug Bombed today!


Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the Bug! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Quote
Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the Bug!

ROFLMAO - I'm gonna steal that quote!
Quote
ROFLMAO - I'm gonna steal that quote!


I'd love to take credit, but I really can't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

There's a country song that Mary Chapin Carpenter sings:

Well it's a strange old game you learn it slow
One step forward and it's back you go
You're standing on the throttle
You're standing on the brake
In the groove 'til you make a mistake

Sometimes you're the windshield
Sometimes you're the bug
Sometimes it all comes together baby
Sometimes you're just a fool in love
Sometimes you're the Louisville Slugger
Sometimes you're the ball
Sometimes it all comes together
Sometimes you're gonna lose it all

You gotta know happy - you gotta know glad
Because you're gonna know lonely
And you're gonna know sad
When you're rippin' and you're ridin'
And you're coming on strong
You start slippin' and slidin'
And it all goes wrong because

Sometimes you're the windshield
Sometimes you're the bug
Sometimes it all comes together baby
Sometimes you're just a fool in love
Sometimes you're the Louisville Slugger
Sometimes you're the ball
Sometimes it all comes together
Sometimes you're gonna lose it all

One day you got the glory and then you got none
One day you're a diamond and then you're a stone
Everything can change in the blink of an eye
So let the good times roll before we say goodbye because

Sometimes you're the windshield
Sometimes you're the bug
Sometimes it all comes together baby
Sometimes you're just a fool in love
Sometimes you're the Louisville Slugger
Sometimes you're the ball
Sometimes it all comes together
Sometimes you're gonna lose it all

Sometimes you're the windshield
Sometimes you're the bug
Sometimes it all comes together baby
Sometimes you're just a fool in love

Sometimes you're the windshield
Sometimes you're the bug
Sometimes it all comes together baby
Sometimes you're just a fool in love


Fox - happy I made ya laugh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/02/08 12:46 AM
Gee, and I thought it was a Mark Knopfler song. Wonder who wrote it.
How u b, Guy Smiley?

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/08/08 05:28 PM
Indeed.
bump

I "saw" you lurking today......

Hopefully your silence does not mean you've made contact with any aliens....

Fox
ZOIKS!!!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/13/08 04:35 AM
Thanks for the persistent checking on me, Amigos. It has been a crappy couple of weeks. I've been trying to distance myself from it by spending less time here, but I don't know that I've done myself any favors. It has kept punching me in the face, and instead of getting it out, I think I've internalized too much and let myself get into a funk.

Plus, I've made so many mistakes that I don't really need to have pointed out to me, and it's not like I'm setting any kind of good example for the neophyte Plan B'ers out there. I can critique what follows in terms of too much contact, stick to the schedule, use an intermediary, let your lawyer do the work. All would be spot on.

Jinkies. Where to begin? It seems like there's been some kind of trigger every day for the past two weeks.

There were a couple of calm days after the mediation session, which was a huge trigger all by itself. Then, the Sunday before last, asking DD4 whether she'd had a bath the night before (when with the SCQ). "Yes, with POSOM's DD3 and DD2." And not being able to cover up my reaction.

The next day getting a call from OMW, who wanted to know if I had said anything to the SCQ, because she was getting the silent treatment from POSOM all of a sudden. Talking with her and realizing that she's powerless against POSOM--totally being strung along and letting him eat cake while occasionally LB'ing the crap out of him (I suspect). Figuring out the sequence of events that led to the silent treatment.

This was heavy enough that I took a walk from work to a quiet spot and prayed. I asked for God's help. I asked for Him to help my family, to help me, and to help the SCQ and POSOM. To help and watch over my children, because they deserve better. I said that I give up--I have been trying to control things, and I'm going to stop (and could He please help me with that). I have stuck to this so far, and maybe this has lifted some weight.

Then the minor triggers started rolling in. My lawyer reminding me that we are still scheduled for court, and that the SCQ's motion was about weekend custody, a house appraisal, and attorney fees. So I exchanged some emails with the SCQ about the motion and how to get it resolved without going to court, and these were, of course, triggering.

An email from her reminding me that the bag that goes with the kids needs to have Two warm sweatshirts and not just one, because it gets cold at the daycare provider's house, and she knows I still have some over here unless I've given them away. "If you want to control exactly what goes into the traveling bag, then why don't you act like a good parent and come home and at least make an effort at saving your children's family--otherwise you can go [insert something--be creative]" went unsaid.

Then the report from the mediator comes in, with the recommendation being for the SCQ. Reasons: "It is reasonable and understandable that the mother would want to have at least one full weekend per month with the children. Both parents' proposed plans addresses full weekend parenting time for each parent. However, the mother's request for each parent to have a full weekend every month with the children seems easier to track and follow and less conducive to further disagreements. Also, the father's repeated assertion that the children prefer to maintain the status quo indicates that Court matters are being unwisely shared with these eight and four-year-old children."

So I actually don't mind the decision too much (other than a nagging sense of having lost), but reading the report made me feel like I'm being made out as the bad guy. It really made me angry. I wanted to send a reply to the mediator to set the record straight, knowing that it wouldn't affect the outcome, but just between the mediator and me so that she knew who the bad guy really is (and the real reason she wants full weekends). Sanity prevailed.

Then, on Sunday, maybe the best one of all. On Saturday I sent her an email telling her that my cousin and her children were coming to town and wanted to see us and was it okay if I brought the kids over at 2 instead of 12. When I hadn't heard anything back that evening, I sent her a TM alerting her to the email, since she likes TMs. Then another one Sunday morning before the TMs started flying.

SCQ (9:48) Saw mail. You can have them all day and I'll have them all day next Sunday. Send reply.

SDG: I have plans later, so this won't work for me. Do you want them at 12 or 2?

SCQ: Guess it is 12. 2 leaves not much of a day on a school night. Adjust your plans for later if kids already know they were staying later to see people.

SDG: 12 it is.

SCQ: Do the kids know about [cousins]?

SDG: Of course.

SCQ: Since you told them without a plan in place removing it now is wrong. Makes it look like I am not letting it happen. You should keep them and let them see their cousins.

SDG: Yeah, I want to keep them until 2. 12 or 2?

SCQ: Yeah, you want. 2 and my original wanting of full weekends is my only option now.

SCQ: And I will ask for you to pay all court costs. Isn't it great to be flexible.

SCQ: Changed mind. 12.

SDG: Okay.

I'm sure that she was in the middle of doing something with POSOM that she had to quit doing to come receive her children. All I did was ask for two hours (the exact same thing she did to me a couple of months ago, except I gave her a lot more than an hour's notice), and she tried to turn it into something else, and when I held firm, the vicious, crazy SCQ came out.

I had lots of potential replies to this, but I wound up just shaking my head and saying nothing.

And the fun keeps coming. While I was typing this, another email from the SCQ, who doesn't like the mediator's recommendation.

Quote
As for the FCS report. I will not be agreeing to it as it is written. The schedule she wrote out is not reasonable. In a two week period it would leave both of us with only seeing them for 1 Sunday. It also does nothing to address 3-day holiday weekends.

So if we want to come to an agreement on another parenting plan we can avoid going to court. Are you willing to discuss this again and see if we can do it? I have suggestions but do not want to waste your time if you are not willing to discuss it before our court date.

I can't even figure out what she means, but what I want to tell her is "If we have to go to court over this, I will be telling the judge that I think the reason you are so insistent on full weekends is because your adultery partner has full weekends with his children and it would make it easier for you force the kids to participate and play Big Happy Family. You want it because it makes your adultery more convenient (because it's what he wants you to do, right?) and NOT because it's in the children's best interest."

It's just so exhausting. I feel like maybe I need to lay down on the ground or something and talk with God again. "I GET it. I surrender. Enough already."

Sorry for the length. Thanks for reading and checking up on me.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/13/08 05:36 AM
((((((SD))))))

Will include you in my prayers tonight.

And remember, it's always darkest before the dawn.

Always.

~ Marsh
Oh, guy, there is so much pain in what you wrote.

The SCQ is nuts. She won't really compromise, then wants mediation, then can't live with what the mediator has suggested? What a maroon! It does sound like it's just not fitting with her plans, really. It doesn't sound like it has much to do with the children, as much as it has to do with her wanting some eutopian infidel world. EWWWWWW.

((((guy))))
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/13/08 01:19 PM
Oh my brother from another mother...

They really are crazy aren't they?

So much hate and resentment in them.. and instead of turning it on the person who continues to visit pain upon them (themselves) they make convenient targets out of the people they feel they can have the biggest impact on. The betrayed spouse who heroically still loves and cares for them.

I'm so with you, and feel your pain.

I'm terrified that even in the protection of Plan B.. however modified out of necessity to avoid court.. these things still get through and still trigger after having been there for so long.

You're still my hero Guy.. and an inspiration to the rest of us of how to have a persistent, and steadfast spirit.

Keep praying, God will give you the strength you need, and the knowledge of when to speak, and the wisdom in the words you do say.. you simply have to trust in Him and stop trying to control the situation.

God will provide what you need.
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stop trying to control the situation.



I wonder if a version of Alanon for battered spouses isn't appropriate. Since doing more reading on the subject, it would make things so much easier if we, the BS, had more tools at our disposal to learn to detach, and to learn that we are POWERLESS over others.

I will probably struggle with this for a while, even though my mind KNOWS it to be true, my heart has a hard time letting go.

A lot of what BR and Mimi were saying to me, early on, is clicking now, making sense. I didn't have my wits about me or the tools to USE the information.
Posted By: Resonance Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/13/08 04:39 PM
SDGuy,

I read your post last night, and should have responded then, but I really didn't even know what to say. Just sat here with tears in my eyes realizing that if things had played out a little differently in our sitch, we could have ended up in the same boat. Our kids are almost the same age and we've been married for about the same amount of years.

I am sorry she is so, well, WAYWARD! Selfish and nasty and mean, and the worst part is she is mixing the kids into the mess. Am I reading this correctly though, that you have not cited "infidelity" as the reason for separation, etc? You need to document everything daily of what is happening over there. What does your L say about all this? Is there any way you can throw a wrench into their little plans?

My heart goes out to you, SD. We need you to stay here with us, though so we can help you through this. The more you withdraw, the worse you will feel. There are many people here who care about you, who have been where you are, and who can help you make great decisions about how to approach things along the way. Your world is upside down, and sometimes it is really hard to get any kind of perspective in that mindframe. We aren't here to kick you when you are down, we are here to help you stay as strong as possible.

But yes, you are right...she is doing this stuff cuz she knows it gets to you. In the process, she is using the children to further her cause. So very sick! To quote you...

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I can critique what follows in terms of too much contact, stick to the schedule, use an intermediary, let your lawyer do the work. All would be spot on.

Protect yourself and stop letting her in...
Man, oh, man.....she's a piece of work, isn't she?

Quote
Also, the father's repeated assertion that the children prefer to maintain the status quo indicates that Court matters are being unwisely shared with these eight and four-year-old children."


If this is going to be seen by a judge.......BE CERTAIN to address it and make clear that you are not "unwisely" sharing information with your children.

Just because you repeatedly assert that the children prefer to maintain the status quo, that does not mean you are sharing information with them unwisely.

Some information needs to be shared - "where's mommy", "how come she lives with WB", "where are we going to live".

Questions need to be answered - and it isn't your fault if the truth isn't all rosy because their mother makes bad choices.

You know the drill since you posted it before you posted the rest. You need to protect yourself - intermediary, etc.

Will continued mediation REALLY get you anywhere - or is she going to want what she wants and to heck with you?

My suggestion is to decide what you think is best in terms of D for you and your children. Take a firm stand, have information and good reasons for what you decided.... and go to court.

DO NOT BE AFRAID!

She's a wayward bully with all the entitlement that goes with that.

You are a good dad - let that stand for itself.

If the sitter's house is cold - SCQ can take sweatshirts there and LEAVE them with the sitter for every day use instead of having them go between 3! houses.

She's poking, sdguy, move the buttons.

Somehow...I've finally figured out how to move some of mine. I sat directly across from WH (ETBX - eventually to be ex) and his mother for 3 hours last night at DD14's dessert show concert. DD13 BROUGHT them over to sit with us. Not ONE WORD passed between us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I tried to make eye contact with his mother and at least say "hi, how are you" but she wouldn't even give me that. Both of them acted as if I was nonexistant. That used to REALLY bother me - to be invisible like that. But it doesn't anymore - it says more about them then me. I joked and laughed and talked with DDs and the other people around us. It was a nice night.

Somehow, we've got to figure out how to move those buttons.

Have you considered an intermediary that SCQ doesn't know you have? Someone to filter the crud but get you the important info. I know this can be difficult - but is it more difficult than what you are already doing?

You give her power over you. Stop it.

Thinking of you, sdguy.

Fox (aka Kettle)
Posted By: Sadmo Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/13/08 05:58 PM
SD-
I don't know.
This has been going on for a year... Do you think that it is healthy for you emotionally to keep holding on?
Because the longer this drags out, the longer you will have hope....
Maybe it would be best to get the D speeding along, that would speak volumes, and if she wanted to stop it, she could. If she didn't, then you would know that too....
As much as it would be great to have your whole family intact, it is not always feasible... if she were to come back now, can you imagine HOW HARD it would be?
If your M was meant to be, then it was meant to be... you can always try to plan A her after a D if you wanted to.

I kind of get the feeling (I may be wrong, I apologize if I am) that this is all a huge contest to you... a battle of the wills if you will. That if you do this and this and this, she will want to come back... and I think that that is what is hurting you right now (emotionally). You did all that you could and should do, and she still did not come back, or consider coming back....And it is a HUGE sting, and a HUGE blow to your ego....

That is kind of the point that I got to with my EX... I realized that it was not that I really even wanted him back anymore, it was that he did not want ME back... and he stuck to his guns, like your WW.

And I realized, what am I wasting time for? I got the D started, and it was over. The finally acknowledging that it was over, coming to grips with it, was amazingly freeing.

I know that it hurts that she has the kids around his kids, and I understand the outrage...But, if the kids are well taken care of, and they are loved by her, and her fool boyfriend is good to the kids, maybe it is NOT too terrible. I would listen very carefully to what the kids say about him... don't pry to much, but just see... if he yells at them, whatever.

I was furious at my EXH for bringing the kids around his gf, and then my EXH brought the kids home one day, their hair was all cute, they were all excited... his gf had gotten them all gussied up... they never have a bad thing to say about her, and I think that speaks volumes...

Like the poem goes, "if you love something, set it free, if it comes back, its yours, if it doesn't, it was never meant to be'

I think that it may be time for you to let go, and move forward, as much as it may hurt you... you fought the good fight... but a good fighter also knows WHEN to stop fighting....

I am not trying to be mean, just to give my thoughts, you seem to be in a similar place that I was at one time... and I let go....

I wish you well.
I'm all for letting go, but I am NOT for exposing your kids to ANYONE new when the ink hasn't even been set onto paper for the D. Even once the D is done, those kids need you MORE, because they are dealing with a lot of inner turmoil. They may seem happy at times, but trust me, they are struggling with their emotions, with their loyalties, and with their heartbreak.

If Jennifer has you in a Plan and you still agree that MB could work, I say listen to her.

Now, as for the SCQ, my opinion will not be agreed on by many, but I think it's time for you to show some teeth, and dig in your heels. When she emails you some idiot crap like the sweatshirts, tell her that she can, as Foxy put it, leave on with the sitter, or you will be happy to do so. I, personally, WOULD respond to her emails with some indignation, and YES, I would point out that she has caused the bulk of this mess, and you will not PAY for that by bending over to her every whim. Tell her to call your lawyer, unless there is some EMERGENCY with the children.

This sippy cup/chocolate milk/sweatshirt CRAP needs to be pointed out to her. At a certain point, without showing a willingness to go to the mattresses with her, she will not respect you. That has already happened on occassion.

Again, not many will agree with me, because Plan B calls for silence, but you haven't been in a DARK plan B this entire time, why not firmly respond to her flim flam?
In all honesty, Guy, I wish you would go completely dark on her, intermediary and all. You would save YOURSELF a lot of pain, and the marriage wouldn't be worse off for it, either.

THat would rattle her to no end, and you would get the benefit of true silence. Meditating wouldn't be to constantly combat the pain/anger/resentment, but to soothe and restore. I dunno, I just feel for you in this. My situation is different now, with it's own crap, but I cannot forget how Plan B was for me, and imagining you in it this long, well, I just feel for you, and know that upon me becoming darker, I felt better, really better. The turmoil still existed, but I was buffered.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/13/08 07:57 PM
Thanks, everyone. Especially Sadmo and Resonance.

Resonance, everything I've been told is that the courts in California don't take infidelity into account--it's a no-fault state. While the court will sympathize with me and maybe glance sternly at her, the rules don't allow them to take any of this into account unless there's some kind of physical threat to the children.

I don't know. Lots of options. Things to do or say, but I don't really know which way to go at this point.

I responded to her email with "I'll listen." Her suggestion is basically a different way to implement what the mediator ruled for, but she opened the email with "I still want full weekends" and proposed that a switch to full weekends be scheduled within a year.

I'm completely triggered right now and need to take some time to process everything.

Probably I will agree to what she has proposed about the weekends, propose that we revisit full weekends in six months after seeing how they go, and move on.

Sadmo, you raise a lot of good points. Stuff that has been rattling around my head more lately. For me, I don't think it's so much a test of wills with the SCQ and an ego blow that she has rejected me. It's about feeling like I have failed my children and that people will think less of me for having done so. I have fought to avoid this, and (as BR said) it has been a test of wills with God.

And so another option is to give her the full weekends. Say, okay, you can have full weekends, I want these things from the final settlement, and we'll be done with it. That does sound enormously liberating.

SL, I hear you on taking a stand over the crap. It's a slippery slope from there to trying to reason with a wayward spouse, though. Trying to make them see that they are wrong.

It would be like telling her that everyone knows the real reason she wants full weekends is to make her adultery more convenient. My mom tells me that the SCQ needs to hear DS8 complaining about POSOM's daughters sleeping in his room and when DD4 says she doesn't want to go to Mommy's or that she doesn't like Mommy (got that one not too long ago). I agree--she should hear all this stuff, but can she? We could all tell it to her, but she's got her head so far up her [censored] in Affairland, what's the point? I might as well tell my cat. The interactions will be more rewarding.

It's all just so frustrating and hurtful.

SL, I'll think about the full darkness.
Posted By: howtoheal Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/13/08 08:14 PM
I have always wanted to know how to spell gerbil-lunger-at-er. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks.

HTH
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/13/08 08:16 PM
my pleasure
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/13/08 08:27 PM
Not to be confused with a gerbil-lungerator which I believe would be mechanical assisted gerbil lunging or gerbil lingerie which would be weird even in California.

Ummm…..just thoughts from the divorced guy.
Posted By: howtoheal Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/13/08 08:32 PM
I always confuse it with Richard Gere.....

HTH
Posted By: Resonance Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/13/08 08:49 PM
Hey SD! I just saw this in another thread. It was posted by MelodyLane and is advice form just a couple weeks ago from Dr. Harley. Thought it might help...

Dr. Harley:
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About 95% of affairs die a natural death within 2 years of discovery. And 70% of those 5% that survive to marriage end in divorce. Even the 30% of the 5% (1.5%) are not all happy marriages. So the odds of your husband finding happiness with his present lover is so unlikely that it's safe to say that his affair is the worst mistake of his life. But because you're married to him, it's the worst mistake of your life, too. And you didn't do anything to deserve it.

Your best plan of action right now is plan B. And you will have to make it air-tight to keep you sane. Otherwise, every casual contact, even at your children's events, is likely to take a terrible toll on your mental and physical health.

Some day, your husband may come out of the fog. And he may be ready to win you back to him again. But I would encourage you to avoid hoping for that outcome. In fact, try to avoid thinking of him at all. Start going down a new path that does not include him in any way. There's nothing more that you can do to encourage him to do the right thing. All you're left with now is to try to protect yourself from future suffering. And that means having absolutely nothing to do with your husband, possibly for the rest of your life.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

You are going down a bad path, SD. I do NOT want to see you end up completely shredded to bits. You WW is actively living her fantasy and making your life a living HE11!!! Protect your children as much as you can and pull yourself up from these depths of despair!! She is gone to you for right now. Let your L do the "dirty" work and stop trying to "win." Your M is right, she needs to feel the consequences of her choices through the children. You make sure they have a voice, and are not afraid to speak their mind to her (respectfully). Keep the line of communication between you and your children WAY open so you know what their life is like "over there." At the first sign of anything negative to them emotionally or physically, get a RO.

Other than that, all you can do now is protect yourself and your children as much as possible. Close the doors, SD...no more fear...save yourself.

(((((((SDGuy)))))))
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/13/08 10:11 PM
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a gerbil-lungerator which I believe would be mechanical assisted gerbil lunging

Pretty sure you can get these on Amazon. Gerbil lingerie I can't help you with.

Thanks for the paste, LaLa. I'm leaning more that way all the time.

I just went to lunch with colleagues. While I was there, I was engaged and was able to put all this crap away for a while. Driving before and after, however, it was churning. The conversations playing in my head--things to say, things to do, and then noticing that my stomach is tight and my shoulders are trying to become one with my ears.

When I remember to breathe and relax and just meditate on what I should do (I told my IC yesterday how I had been praying to God for help, and she said that this was a good idea and asked if I had received an answer. I replied not that I know of.) what comes to me is "Let go" and "Get it over with."
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I told my IC yesterday how I had been praying to God for help, and she said that this was a good idea and asked if I had received an answer. I replied not that I know of.) what comes to me is "Let go" and "Get it over with."

Sometimes the answer is staring us right in the face. A very DARK Plan B from now through the divorce and thereafter-- preserving what TINY bit of love you have left for WW. I agree, time to let the Ls handle things, expedited or not. And as to WW "hearing" her children... she will RUE the day she made these choices. I PROMISE you it will come back to bite her in the... gerbil hind quarter... when they grow up.

You've been so strong... time for some relief.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/13/08 11:01 PM
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And as to WW "hearing" her children... she will RUE the day she made these choices. I PROMISE you it will come back to bite her in the... gerbil hind quarter... when they grow up.

Oh, I know. The thing is, after everything, I'm still trying to spare her that. And the kids, of course.

Thanks for the thoughts, PM.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/14/08 02:50 AM
((((SD)))))

I'm there with you SD. After 6 months in Plan B I found out this week that WH filed for D. Took me right down the tubes. Dang, I was doing well too. It hurts like the dickens (as my grandma would say).

I'm like you though - I can't seem to let it go. I don't want to throw away 34 years, and I just can't convince myself that there isn't anything more that I can do.

Res - do you know where Dr. Harley's answer came from? I would like to read the entire question and answer if possible.
Post deleted by pomdbd3
Posted By: Resonance Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/14/08 03:45 AM
Chai...according to Melody, it was on the MB weekend forum. Mel's full posting of it (I just took an excerpt) was on Ani269's thread at around 11 this morning. I'm not sure when he wrote it...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/14/08 06:35 AM
Thanks for stopping in, CL. And thanks pomdb3. I've seen you occasionally on Chrisner's thread but haven't figured out who you used to be. There's an email in my profile. Mostly it collects spam, but I check it from time to time.

The schedule you propose is pretty much what we have, except that instead of having full weekends, we have another switch on Sunday at noon. This is what the SCQ wants to get rid of.

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If anything, I get the impression you were doing much better when you were in a dark plan B than how you are doing now. You're emailing and negotiating with her way too much. These emails and arguments are ways to staying connected to each other.

Oh, I absolutely agree. My plan B has never been all that dark. It was dark enough that I never (rarely?) responded to her madness and LB'ed her, and I could handle the occasional alien outburst.

I refused to negotiate with her about weekends, though, and so finally she filed the motion with the court. Once she did that, the mediation at FCS was mandatory. I didn't really want to have the FTF, so I tried negotiating with her via email. It didn't work out.

I need to and want to be dark again. Darker. I want to be able to check my email without wondering whether there will be something from the SCQ that's going to set me off.

I feel a bit better tonight.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/14/08 08:06 AM
Sometimes when I post it's kind of an emotional discharge, and it comes out disjointed and may not say what I really mean. It doesn't help that proofreading bores me. So when I got the following from BR, I felt like clarifying, and so I figured I would share the clarification here.

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Surrendering, letting go...is not about giving up and is not about giving in. Surrender is not about avoiding conflict. Letting Go is not being Done. Letting Go of Being Right does not mean Being OK with Being Wrong. Letting go does not mean Lying Down Like a Doormat. Surrender and letting go is not about stuffing emotions and not about appeasing others - including your wife.

Letting go means doing the next right thing. Always DO the RIGHT thing. Letting go means letting go of the outcome, it does not mean throwing your hands up in despair and standing by while evil happens.

I'm not giving up. I am taking things to a different stage and conserving my strength for a later time. She is the mother of my children, and I still love her. If I continue this way, I won't. Jennifer recommended sending her letters every other month. Right now, I'm not sure I could write one. In my recent posts, I haven't said anything about being Done, because I'm not.

And if I'm giving in, then it is calculated. I've pretty much decided to accept her proposal for the two full weekends a month schedule but not agree to full weekends. If I fight for no full weekends (the only way to prevent her from traveling with the OM and kids), I will lose. That much is just about guaranteed. So, her having some full weekends. . . is it really going to be that different than how it is now? Yes, she can travel, but he already spends the night, and has his kids spend the night. Of course it's evil and bad for them, but there's really nothing I can do about it.

Some full weekends would be better for me, too. Yeah, I'll have to go longer without seeing the kids, but, like I've said, I'm getting used to my alone time. It will be easier for me to plan full weekend activities with the kids.

Me fighting it is also drama-inducing. "If only that jerk SDGuy would let us have full weekends, why THEN we'd really be happy. We'd have it made THEN." Fine. Go for it. Live the dream. See how it works out for you.

It's not about appeasing her. It's about realizing that she wants it bad and I can't keep her from having it, so why fight so hard? It's the same with the divorce and stopping resistance. I have given her every opportunity to not go through with divorce, and she continues to move that way. I just want to get the next part over with so I can get dark again. There will still be opportunities to avoid actually being divorced.

When I talk about surrendering, it's not to the SCQ. It's letting go of fighting with God.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/14/08 12:17 PM
SD,

Oh my friend I so totally understand your struggle!

I just have to pop in to let you know that you are not alone. I am stuggling in very much the same way you are right now.

I am working on the Letting Go,,,,,still. I have to share with you my "goal". That is to enter into the Rest that God can provide for us. It is that place of letting go that BR is describing.

It is where we DO what is Right and then let it be. The bible tells us that we are to have faith, to step aside and let God handle our lives. That means the good and the bad. When we truly do this, we are able to enter that place of Rest. That place where we KNOW by faith that God is handling things. Where we KNOW that we need not worry. Where we KNOW we have no control and it is BEST left to Him and we allow him full control and power.

We do not WORRY and try to WORK to DO anything further about it. We enter that place of rest, knowing He is taking care of things. Not only do we not worry, we really cease to 'care' about the details of when, where, why or how He is dealing with the problem. We simply KNOW that the outcome will be to our best interest.

Hard, hard, hard!! Yes, but we have been there. Both of us have had glimpses of this peaceful place and we can get there again!

Having DD come home on her nights with Drac talking about having spent it at the ho's house,,,,,,,,,,,OUCH! Yet WHO hurts when I dwell on it? ME. Nobody else. Drac & the Ho believe they are making one happy little family. Does it hurt? Yes TERRIBLY. Yet I can do nothing about it. God can. That is HIS.

Yesterday, I wrote a VERY MEAN Valentine card that I wanted to send anonomously to the ho. Did I send it? No. Why not? Because it's not my place to BE like THEM. It's my place to follow God, to be the Better person and to let HIM deal with the adulterous ones. They wouldn't listen to me or care anyway. MY actions will not change them one little bit. Only God can do that.

So, we are both struggling. Yet we both know it can be and will be better. I'm keeping you in my prayers my friend!!


{{{SG}}}
Good morning Guy,

OH boy, can I relate to letting go. I practice it DAILY, sometimes by the hour. I also STRUGGLE with it daily. Why do I think *I* can make this WHOLE thing change? I can't; I can be a part of it changing, do my part, but I can't make it all better . The best thing I do now is soothe myself, love my son, and love PWC. Right now, I'm sure that he doesn't feel loved, because his version is total attention and admiration. I have a hard time admiring him when I come home to him being sauced. It's a daily fight with myself to LET GO, and not to take it upon myself to try and teach PWC something, or tell him of the mistakes I believe he's making.

I could go on and on. I gotta tell ya, sometimes I LONG for the darkness, I long for separation, I long to be free from this. My answer is coming. It won't be soem HUGE flashy answer, but it will come in it's own time.

I remember having every other weekend to myself, and although I did miss my son, I found the time to be good for me.

It was hard knowing that PWC could potentially have my son around Aimless on those weekends, and may have, and I did tell him of my concern, basically LBing him, but I needed the time to myself. I was exhausted all the time, and the down time gave me free reign to do whatever I needed to feel refreshed by Sunday evening.

None of us have the answer, we have our own experience. Mine has been that the darker I was, the healthier and happier I was.
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/14/08 01:36 PM
SDG,

I thought of something that would be very unique, but it just might work and work well for you.

Why don't you and OMW team up legally and both approach the court requesting that your children be left out of this adulterous affair?

One person could seem bitter, but two teamed up together could have a lot of sway.

You can both say that you are looking out for the best interest of the kids and want to minimize their confusion. You both feel it's best to leave the kids out of the turmoil and that neither of you approve of each other's spouses around the children.

It was something that came to mind since you both seem to feel strongly about this.

I also think there would be a bad reaction to your kids bathing with his. That's just bizzare.

Finally, you should save all her angry voice messages. They can be used against her in court.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/14/08 06:59 PM
Quote
Hard, hard, hard!! Yes, but we have been there. Both of us have had glimpses of this peaceful place and we can get there again!

How true this is, Bugs.

Last night I was talking with a cousin I haven't seen in a long time. She used to be a marriage counselor (and is familiar with MB, which puts her one up in my book) and is interested, so I was giving her the whole story. Driving home after dropping them off at their hotel, I felt the peace.

It didn't last long, but it was like a breath of fresh air while it was there. This morning, I am back to the conversation in my head and the stomach and shoulder tightness and wanting to curl up under my desk.

Quote
Why don't you and OMW team up legally and both approach the court requesting that your children be left out of this adulterous affair?

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it would work. Maybe if we had tried it a year ago, but now it is over a year after the SCQ moved out. The POSOM moved out a year and a half ago. The CA courts may well consider the date of filing for divorce the date of the end of the marriage. I still consider myself married and people here will bristle at the thought that we are not, but it is clear that the infidels do not, and I'm not confident that they are the only ones. I think the only thing the court would have to say is "Why the ****** aren't you divorced yet?"

They are all-but-living-together and have been for a long time. So, yeah, it's wrong. Since there is really nothing I can do about it, I almost think it's better if I remove myself as a dramatic obstacle to The Happiness of the Infidels. Get out of their way and let them reap what they have sown.
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/14/08 08:59 PM
But your children are being negatively affected by this. It's been two years since my divorce and my daughter asked me last night if I was still married to mommy. The marriage may be over on paper, but your kids don't think that way.
Quote
The thing is, after everything, I'm still trying to spare her that. And the kids, of course.


You MUST NOT spare her! She MUST be faced with the consequences of her own actions so that she learns from them.

They cannot get to her if you are standing between them. Visual that, every time you want to SAVE her.

I understand the protection of the children part - but that is also something you can't be responsible for. You are responsbile for your portion, but what their mother does is what their mother does. Continue to TEACH them what is right and wrong and let them make their own decisions. One day they will be in the world alone and will need those lessons.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/14/08 11:08 PM
I guess what I meant was that I'm trying to spare her all the pain that will hit her two years down the road when POSOM proves what he really is and she's left with nothing.

Your point is a good one, though, and is taken.

I would love for her to get smacked in the face by some consequences right now.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/25/08 11:44 PM
Things have calmed down quite a bit. With a couple of more emails, we reached an agreement and were able to avoid court. I didn't have to give up anything beyond what the mediator had already ruled for, which I was basically okay with. It was stressful, but I survived.

I really didn't want to go to court over this, when I would likely lose and get even more frustrated with the California courts (and their "no-fault" indifference toward infidelity) and have to pay for it, so this is all a relief. Today was the court date.

I'm trying to find the calm place again and reside there. I'm also gearing up to send the SCQ another "It doesn't have to be this way" letter, as per Jennifer's instructions.
I think I can do this without violating my calm. It might even help me stay calm.
Thanks for the update, Guy. Glad to hear you survived and didn't have to take a loss. Court is so frustrating with the "no-fault" crapola.

I'm also glad to hear you are still counseling with Jennifer. This has been a long road for you - it's interesting to know that Jennifer still sees hope.

Fox
Posted By: Resonance Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/26/08 05:48 PM
HI SD!!!

Thanks for the update! Been wondering how you were doing. Glad to see the first round is over and you can get back to being in a DARK plan B with some PEACE!!

But tell me, if you are in Plan B, why are you writing letters? Does Jennifer know you are supposed to be in Plan B or have you not actually gone there yet?

Sorry, just wanted to be sure about the details...

(((((SDGuy))))))
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/27/08 05:54 PM
Thanks for asking, LaLa.

I have been in Plan B for about 14 months now. It has been an admittedly porous one in that it hasn't been as dark as some, but it has been under Jennifer's supervision. And it has served its main purpose, because at 14 months I am still willing (and sometimes eager) to reconcile. Plus, I haven't Plan FU'ed her.

Jennifer told me some time ago that if the SCQ comes back, it won't be because of anything I do. It's all about the OM and has been since the beginning, and my job is to wait on the sidelines for the affair to collapse.

Why the letters? As Jennifer says, at this point, there's nothing to lose. The divorce seems imminent ("when you're staring down the barrel of the gun" is Jennifer's line). She says the only thing at stake is my pride, and we're not worried about that.

I'm not sure whether Jennifer would recommend this for everyone or whether it's because I have described the SCQ as an extremely passive, stubborn person and that I'm not sure she would take the initiative to actually come back.

Jennifer said she expects the letters will be largely ignored, but we're hoping that they will still be in her mind when the affair does crumble.

In terms of recommendations, it was the strongest thing I got from Jennifer at our last session. That's the strategy as I understand it. Questions are welcome.
Posted By: Dupree Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/27/08 08:55 PM

Hi SD

Just read about how things are going for you. Hopefully things will turn around. I always think about you and your situation. I am continuing my Plan B as well. It's not as dark as it should be. I get tired of all the criticism my sorry Plan B gets. My problem is my WH always says somewhat positive things. We got into a little discussion around tax time and I asked if he was ever going to move home..his reply I don't know. Then he got angry because he thinks I'm dating and when I stated I was faithful to him and brought up the fact that he had an affair he yelled "that was long time ago!" So I wonder what Jennifer would say if the affair is over but WH hasn't moved back home or talked about getting back together? I wonder if I should kinda Plan A again? Let him remember the good or continue Plan B even though it's not the darkest? What do you think. Jennifer has seemed to counsel us in similar ways.

Ani
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/27/08 09:42 PM
Thanks for stopping by, Ani. I check your thread from time to time but sometimes it's easier to not post so much.

So, I have come to believe that WHs and WWs are different creatures. I think WHs are much more likely to want to cake-eat and string both sides along. Because of this, I think it's that much more important for BWs to be as dark as possible. Thus, I would probably be telling you the same things--every time you have communication, you undermine your plan B.

My sanity is much better when I am having no contact with the SCQ. Every contact is an opportunity to get triggered. You started out talking about taxes, but you took the opportunity to look over the fence (Is the Fog lifting yet? Are you ever coming home?). Totally understandable, but it put him into a conflicted place (WS's don't like to feel conflicted--it makes them feel bad), so he lashed out at you with what he had at hand (you're dating!), which triggered you enough to bring up the affair, which is a pretty huge LB. Better to resist the temptation by just having no contact at all.

But that's not what you asked. Are you sure the affair is over? How do you know? My sense is that if you're *positive* the affair is over, it might be time to go back to a Plan A. There's plenty of risk associated with that, so I would definitely consult with Jennifer or Steve before undertaking anything like that. *My* best advice is to make your Plan B darker and thus protect both yourself and your WH.

That and examine yourself. Have you tried to figure out your own behaviors that contributed to the state of the marriage that made the affair possible? We all take a quick look at this, but often a deeper look is required. BrambleRose was very good at helping people with this. Did you have some behaviors that really pushed him away, and are you still doing them?

Hope that helped. Remember, it's just one Guy's opinion. Thanks again for stopping in.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/27/08 10:31 PM
Hi SD,

Just wanted to stop by and offer support. I've been working with Jennifer too, and have the same direction, although I haven't quite convinced myself to send that last letter. At this point it feels like begging to me. She told me the same thing - what have you got to lose?

I guess what I am most afraid of is that it won't deter future A's. If he thinks that he can go away, try it out and always come back, what is the incenetive.

I dunno. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way. Mine has been so hostile though. This whole D thing is getting ugly, so it will make it hard to recover. Jennifer says to give his atty a bag with a gift in it and the letter.

Will think more about it.

You've been in Plan B sooo long. I admire your patience...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/28/08 06:31 AM
Hey, CL.

Interesting that you've been given the same advice about letters.

I'm not worried about future affairs. I guess all I'm looking for is a shot at reconciliation. At that point, I will be able to assess the person that is coming back to me. If I don't see what I need to see (and I understand that it will take a while to see some of these things), then I will be the one walking away.

As far as the letters, if you're going to resent it, I don't know that I would do it. I can write these without getting bent over them. Even if they're having a big laugh over them over at Infidelity Central, I know who and what I am and what I have done for the sake of my family.

Thanks for the kind words. I admire your strength, with your daughter and all.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/28/08 12:36 PM
Heya Guy..

Haven't been posting much, but wanted you to know that I have been keeping up with your thread.

Looks like Jennifer is counseling us in much the same way regarding any potential recoveries. In the one session I've had with her, she too indicated that I was on the sidelines waiting for the A to crumble. Now of course WW's indications are that even if it does, she's been hurt too much to even consider it. Like you, I've pretty much gone about moving on and living my life.. haven't gotten to 'done' yet either and I think that's OK. Honestly I don't have time for anyone else but my kids in my life right now anyway.

Anyhow.. the point is, I'm keeping up with you, keeping you and the kids in my prayers.. and passing the Gatorade to my fellow sideline sitter.
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/28/08 02:59 PM
Interesting how many of us (BHes) are here in this situation.

I think I might have been in many of your shoes if I hadn't gone off and just signed a quick no contest divorce. I probably would still be in it.

Having things be officially over, however, did help me move on.

I'm with Jamesus, though. I don't really have time for someone else. I do, but I don't.

SD, Jamesus, you will get to a point where you're "done". I'm there. Got there myself when false allegations started getting thrown around. That pretty much killed any thoughts of reconciliation for me.

So now I move on. I don't mean to TJ, but am just letting you guys know you won't be on the sidelines forever while your WWes go and destroy their own lives. My exWW is jumping from one marriage right into another. I don't know if she knew this guy while we were married (I have my suspicions) but it's a testament to the instability I've observed in many situations.

I don't understand how motherly instinct doesn't override stupidity and have these women look at what they're doing to their kids' home and family.

SD, have your kids rebelled against this stuff at all?

I know the day will come when they start asserting themselves and realize that these people who have been thrust on them really have no authority or right to give their opinions on anything in their lives. I can see how teens in split families end up rebelling, turning to drugs at a high percentage, and have relationship problems.

I can only hope that the one side that stays sane, the betrayed, will hopefully continue to put the kids first and keep that part of their family intact for the children. I think the kids will see that as they get older. There's the parent that put them above all, including their own personal needs, while the other one jumped from one relationship into another, changing things over and over and dragging their children through their confusion.

It's a dangerous path that even a BS can be tempted to take.

I've met a few BSs that I respect for just being still and not rushing off into anything. Self recovery and self growth is a great thing.

Chrisner comes to mind. Look at his relationship with DD20. There's others here as well.

So keep your chin up, SD. Keep those kids first always and they will appreciate it as they get older. They'll remember or learn who it was that ran and who it was that wanted to actually stick to their vows.

My best wishes to you and Jamesus and all other BHs and BWs here who do put their kids first.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 02/28/08 05:11 PM
Quote
Now of course WW's indications are that even if it does, she's been hurt too much to even consider it.

This is typical FogSpeak. It may or may not be true, but it is certainly something that they all say.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/05/08 01:55 AM
Lots of crickets lately.

Some back and forth with the SCQ over logistics--baseball practice and equipment, swimming lessons, etc.

DS8 told me he wants me to take him to all of his baseball games (like last year, even though some of them are on her days). I'm not coaching this year. Based on the practice game the other day, some of these games are going to be excruciating--it's the first year of kid-pitch. The practice game was on her day, so I picked him up for the game. The SCQ showed up with DD4 about halfway through and stood far away from me and everyone else, probably respecting my no-contact wishes. Somewhat triggering, nonetheless.

I still have my angry moments. And, in thinking about the letter to send, moments where I find myself thinking about reasoning with her. Going beyond "the door is still open" to "Are you sure you want to walk away from this door?" which could easily turn into "Here's why you shouldn't walk away from this door."

Frustrating. Especially because I don't really want her to come home because I have convinced her to. I want her to come home because she has realized it's where she really wants to be. Then I look at the situation and realize she's so far from that and wonder why I'm still doing this at all.

I was moving some pictures around from my fireplace mantle, and my DD4 pointed at one and said "that's my favorite." Sure enough, the last group picture of our family.

Oh. That's why I'm doing it.

We were talking the other night, and I forget how we got on the subject, but she told me "Mommy's falling in love with someone." And then, lowering her voice "It's POSOM." I nodded and told her "I know." She said "that's a pretty dumb thing for a mommy to do." I had a brief temptation to pile on ("that man is why mommy left home, etc.) but let it go. I think I just nodded.

Sigh.
I believe you are doing that right thing, guy. You are giving it all that you have. Lord, I know how hard it is. Keep your eye on the prize. If it doesn't happen, you have lost nothing, except time. Maybe some pride, but pride doesn't, generally, serve you well in this type of sitch.

Quote
Oh. That's why I'm doing it.


I certainly, STILL, know this sentiment.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/05/08 03:52 AM

Oh Sd,,,, I SO hear you on so much of this.

Good job holding back with DD. My DD told me today the order of people that she loves,,,,,,,,,,the HO is now on the list. OUCH!! I felt like I was taking a stake in the heart and wished I could drive one into Drac right then and there!

Instead, I sat back and took a great deal of Pride in the first name on her list - God.

I am pleased to know that we are both putting Him first on our list! He's in control and I HAVE to stay in the co-pilot seat. It's hard, hard, hard.

Drac's been poking at me over things w/DD. I just don't engage. I keep it strictly business and have even found myself venting less these days. When it comes to those pesky WS's at our stage of the game, Less is Better.

So, I'll be praying for Less for you & the kids tonight!

Hang in there!
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/05/08 04:47 PM
Quote
Less is Better.

I carved that on a rock here on the dark side of Pluto but you have to read Braille.
hey, Chrisner, SD. Just popped in to say "hey". Sd - i will say a prayer for you.
chrisner - I like your attitude.
They found a picture of Helen Keller recently....

far
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/07/08 06:12 PM
Hey, FAR

Thanks for dropping by. Hope all is well with you. Sounds like it is!
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/07/08 06:19 PM
Hey look! FAR's Out!

The other San Diego guy.

Have a great weekend guys.

My best to DD and DS, SD (too many acronyms)
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/11/08 12:01 AM
Hey SD,

Just wanted to check in and see if you had written the next letter as advised by Jennifer???

If you did, I don't expect that you got a response, but I wondered....
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/12/08 09:13 PM
Hey, CL

I haven't been ignoring you, just been busy with kids, sick kids, kids' baseball games, and recovering from the afforementioned. Plus creating some space for myself from adultery and its' accompanying woes.

So, I haven't sent the letter, but I am going to soon. I will include a gift that I made for her and tie it in to the letter. I've been mentally composing it and got some nice suggestions from my IC yesterday.

It's been about two months since the last letter. I'll set up an appointment with Jennifer for next week to discuss what to do after that. I am considering inviting the SCQ to a FTF conversation--if she is still fully determined to be divorced, then I'm ready for that to happen. I need to be done with this limbo are-we-going-to-be-divorced-or-aren't-we phase (for reasons other than my mental health).
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/12/08 09:15 PM
FTF?? Probably is so simple that it's going right past me.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/12/08 09:18 PM
Oh, sorry. Face-to-face. Got my work acronyms mixed up with my online acronyms. So hard to keep track.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/12/08 09:25 PM
In an old Loony Tunes or Tom and Jerry cartoon I think FTF was frying pan to face. Still.........
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/12/08 09:51 PM
Quote
FTF was frying pan to face.

Yeah, you're right, that probably works just as well for the conversation I have proposed. Maybe Jennifer will tell me the same thing.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/12/08 11:09 PM
Duh! See I told you it was too easy. Can't believe that I couldn't get that one.

Let us know how it goes. I don't think that I'm going to do mine. I looked back at the last 6 months and I have sent 3 of them and all are ignored. At this point, I'm starting to heal somewhat and I don't want to open the wound again.

I guess I also feel that if I'm ever to move beyond this, I need some type of effort thrown at it from him. If he can't do that then I'll be OK where I am.

Good luck SD.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/13/08 05:44 PM
I hear you, CL. It's getting harder to remain interested in recovery. My soul feels kind of numb right now.

This weekend is the first full weekend for the SCQ, and I find myself looking forward to it. I really need some time to myself, just to relax. The single dad of two small children thing is SO draining. I wouldn't be able to do it all the time without making some significant changes.

I feel like I'm down about six hours of sleep.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/13/08 06:37 PM
SD,

Being a single parent is sooo hard, especially when they reach the teenage years. Our DD has always been somewhat rebellious, and I can't imagine having had to deal with that alone when she was that age. I remember back then that there were times when my WH barely could control her. Without both of us there, it would have been a nightmare.

You do need a break from them at times, so hopefully you can take the weekend and do something for yourself.

I may have missed it in your thread somewhere, but don't you have custody?
Quote
It's getting harder to remain interested in recovery.


I don't think this is an active endeavor, and when you try and think of it as HOLDING ON, it can become draining. Truth is, guy, you don't HAVE to remain interested. The darker you are, however, the easier it is to maintain your course.


Guy, it will be good for you to have a couple of days off in a row; I know you wanted to keep your kids from your wife's poor choices, and you have, for as long as you possibly could. Try to enjoy the time you have, use it to refresh, regroup, to be JUST GUY SMILEY. When the kids come home, you'll be able to fully enjoy them, and be energized enough to deal with their needs.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/13/08 06:53 PM
Get some sleep SD. You have been in this trench a long time now.

DD talked about you a little at dinner last night and sends her best.

Now as far as sleep, I know it is easier said than done.

It reminds me of the Christoper Columbus joke when weeks into their voyage the first mate comes to Columbus and says, "Captain Columbus. The men have not eaten for days. Thay are all starving!"

Columbus turns to the first mate and says, "Well force them!"
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/13/08 07:36 PM
CL, we have 50:50 custody. The schedule is pretty complicated, and it is about to get simpler with some of the weekends.

Quote
I don't think this is an active endeavor, and when you try and think of it as HOLDING ON, it can become draining. Truth is, guy, you don't HAVE to remain interested. The darker you are, however, the easier it is to maintain your course.

Thanks for this. It's what I've been thinking and was having trouble describing--the less interested in recovery part. It's less urgent, or I want it less, or maybe I just worry about it less. Or maybe I'm just reaching another level of detachment and letting go the way everyone has been hoping I would.

I didn't really want to say it this way, but I am really looking forward to the weekend. It hasn't even really occurred to me to worry about what she will do with the kids, which I think is good. I just want some time to myself. And yeah, like you said, SL, by the time they get back I'll be really ready to see them.

Quote
Now as far as sleep, I know it is easier said than done.

It's not so much insomnia as it is getting my sleep schedule (such as it is) adjusted to what it needs to be. I'm still recovering from Daylight Savings Time.

And the whole single parent thing. DS8's baseball game last night ended at about 7 pm. As soon as we got home, I made dinner (mercifully, the kids weren't fighting, but DD4 was being a pill), got DD4 to eat some of it, ran DD4 through the shower, read to the kids before bed, lay down with them before sleep (this is something I could cut out, but they really like it, and I like doing it with them), and then it was after 10 pm. Clear the table, do a little work on DD4's lunch for tomorrow and it's after 10:30. Want to add something else in? Then it's after midnight before sleep.

Okay, enough whining. I'll tell you what really interferes with sleep is this whole work thing. Some of which I should probably do.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/14/08 02:48 AM
Dang jobs...they get in the way of everything fun.
I found you, I found you!

How about that update?

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/26/08 09:23 PM
Aw, Fox, you're so good to me. smile

Update soon. I promise.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/26/08 09:54 PM
Yea Verily Yea!

I miss some stuff but there is some new cool crap here now. Bad news though, it seems you can't do searches in the body of posts and I do miss seeing who is on line. mad If it had ears it would be the Killer Rabbit.

Maybe it's a Killer Gerbil.

Originally Posted by chrisner
Yea Verily Yea!

I miss some stuff but there is some new cool crap here now. Bad news though, it seems you can't do searches in the body of posts and I do miss seeing who is on line. mad If it had ears it would be the Killer Rabbit.

Maybe it's a Killer Gerbil.

You can tell if someone is online when you post.....if their emoticon by their name is gray and appears to be sleeping, they are offline. If it is colored and has an emotion...online.

I do miss the list of who is online, though. Don't know why...just interested, I guess.

Now you have to actually find one of their posts and see if it is an active emoticon.

Fox

Still waiting, smiley.........

And chris....why would you want to do a search in the body of a post? Are there posts really so long you need to search within it? confused
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/26/08 10:23 PM
SD,

Stopped by here looking to drop a bug bomb and get an update from you,,,,,,,,,,

Instead, I am finding GREAT information on the new forum features from Fox and Chris!! whoo hoo! I think I'll just sit back and wait for them to figure it all out for me!

Hope life is treating you well. Update, please?!
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/26/08 10:44 PM
Quote
And chris....why would you want to do a search in the body of a post? Are there posts really so long you need to search within it?


Sometimes keywords can help you find lost posts and occasionally I would check my own username in case it was mentioned somewhere in a thread I was not following or someone was looking for me.

I got the little icon symbol if you are online or a "ghost" if you are not but it is a lot more work to find out if you have to sift through lots of posts. Usually I just checked it to see if any of the Amigos were on.

Quote
Usually I just checked it to see if any of the Amigos were on.


Yup, me too. I miss that feature.

Guess the GerbilLungerAter is busy with the kiddies tonight.

I am happy to report that I've been going to GerbilLungerAter's anonymous (better known as AlAnon), and have learned how to avoid the lunging. It's a lot of work, but boy is it worth it not to have all that fur flying. smirk (at least they still have my smirk emoticon, confarndit new boards)
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/27/08 06:06 AM
Yep. Was busy with the kids. Left work early to pick them up in time for DS8's baseball game (and it was my day to provide the team snack, so I had to get that ready). Beat my way through the traffic to get him there in time, then tried to keep DD4 (who is becoming pretty high maintenance in a clingy-but-sweet way) distracted if not entertained during the game so that I can watch it. Back and forth to the adjacent playground, intermittently plying DD4 with cookies. A posse of Other Little Sisters helped keep DD4 busy some of the time. DS8 pitches again and does well enough to earn the game ball (Yes!) Snack after game. Chat with team parents while snack is consumed. Gather children (including a spare one I volunteered to transport so that the team wouldn't be left with 7 players), deliver said child, a quick trip back to work to push a button I forgot to push before I left (the kids think my NMR lab is pretty cool), pick up food, go home. Before I can get in the house, both kids are crying--DS8 because he shut his finger in the door and DD4 first because she thought DS8 was going to get in the house and hold the cat first (and it's HER turn to hold the cat first--yes, we have to take turns on this) but then because her brother is really crying and it scares her. The tone of his crying sets off my radar--it doesn't sound quite right, plus I'm suspicious that the reason he shut his finger in the door is because he was trying to get into the house first so that his sister would THINK he was going to hold the cat first. In the end I think he was just scared (and tired, and hungry), but I didn't do a very good job of comforting him when he couldn't calm down, and because he can't pull it together DD4 is still crying. Finally, everyone calmed down enough to eat, and by the time that's over, it's time for bed. Read some Go, Dog, Go and some The Hobbit and lay down with them til they were asleep.

And, breathe. Single parenting is exhausting. It felt like a frenetic pace for, like, six straight hours. There's a reason why there are two parents.

Okay, so here's the update. Last weekend was my first full weekend with the kids, so I had them Wednesday through Sunday (and on Monday, he collapsed). It was really good--day off Friday with DD4, we attended DS8's Spring Fling school performance, then miniature golfing and watched the movie Enchanted. Saturday baseball game and Easter Egg coloring; Sunday Easter Egg hunt, time at the park, and time around the house to relax. Sunday night I wrote the Next Letter Jennifer Wants Me To Send.

Sidebar: For the past several months I've been doing scroll-sawing--making wooden animal puzzles and giving them to friends and family. I made a dragon for DS8 and a pegasus for DD4. They are pretty cool and are more impressive than the skill required to make them. When they are finished, I still look at them and say "Wow. I actually made that."

The kids know I have been giving them away, so I asked them whether they thought I should make something for the SCQ--maybe a bear (bears have always been the SCQ's thing). Yeah! says DD4, you should make her a bear puzzle. So I did. Made the bear, wrapped it up, and sent it along with the kids' stuff Monday with the next Letter Jennifer Wants Me To Write.

The letter said something like "I made this bear for you. In some ways, it symbolizes the mistakes we made in our marriage. When the kids came along, we stopped caring for each other--we neglected things that were important to each other. I was surprised when I realized how long it had been since I had given you a bear; not that you really needed more, but you liked them, and I liked seeing you smile and the way you would say "Isn't he pretty?" These mistakes made the affair possible, but I want us to put the past behind us and create a new life for us and DS8 and DD4.

I envision a life where the kids have both parents with them all the time, with no back and forth. A life where neither of us have to miss a Christmas morning or an Easter Egg hunt or a new tooth lost or a first bicycle ride without training wheels.

Just as important, I envision a life where the two of us are every bit as in love as we were [at college where we met--insert nostalgic memories here]. I know that I can put the past behind me. I know that if we both want it, we can make our marriage better than it ever was before. It's what I want with all my heart
."

Something like that, anyway. Then Monday evening, about the time the SCQ would have been getting home with the kids, I had a session with Jennifer. I updated her on my face-to-face mediation session (and confessed what LB'ing I did there as well as the information I passed along). Told her about the letter and the bear.

Jennifer was pleased about me passing on the info. She said I nailed the letter I sent. She wasn't sure on the gift (gift-giving is meeting a need)--probably okay but don't send any more. Partly she's worried about me resenting it, but I explained that it was truly a gift--that I honestly gave it with no expectations attached to it.

She wants me to keep up the plan for a year after the divorce is complete, including sending these kinds of letters once a month or so. She also wants me to buy a new wedding band and wear it and thought about having me tell the SCQ that I was doing that. I said "Just for clarification, you still think there's hope here," and her reply was "Oh, AbsoLUTEly. And once that affair ends, you get a whole new woman back so fast it will make your head spin." I said that it has been a pretty long time (thinking about that year she's talking about and about how attractive women look to me these days and about that new identity I've discovered--Mr Vulnerable), and, while she agreed, she said what's surprising is how long the affair has lasted.

Wow, that was long. Now I'm REALLY tired. Wonder what all those buttons up above this panel do. Maybe one of them is the secret panel. Maybe I'll find out tomorrow.
Posted By: Dupree Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/27/08 11:45 AM
Hey Guy!!

Just read your post. Always check in on you even though I may not post. You're life sounds exactly like mine! Except I have two boys playing baseball. Two practice, two games, and guitar lessons. I just started a new job two weeks ago. I've been really busy with that so I don't have much time to think about you know who. I do see him occasionally at games but he coaches so he's on the field. I leave 5 min before game ends if I don't have the kids that day. I act strong even when I feel weak. I think over the last few weeks I realize how my talking with him occasionally is meeting some of his needs. I know this because it meets some of my needs as well. He has always had one foot in our marriage and one foot out. I have become soooo strong and everytime I think of a reason I need to call him ..I call my friend or I tell myself i am hurting my chances of reuniting with him if I make contact. It makes it easier that way. I just remind myself that he never really left our marriage during his affair (Cake eating) and he returned home during it (only for 4 months or so) so I say to myself if OW was so wonderful and she was everything he ever wanted why would he leave her to come back home ...even if just for 4 months. Maybe it just makes me feel better to think of it like that. Whatever helps me not contact is OK with me at least for now. You sound like you're doing great. Yes, being a single parent is hard. My WH traveled a lot so I got used to having the kids on my own way before the affair.

Ani
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/27/08 01:41 PM
Hey there brother Smiley smile

Glad to see things are going pretty well out there on the left coast. Amen to the strength of the single parent. With as much stuff as DD is into and then with the days DS is able to be with us I totally can relate. Just wait until DD get's a little older wink.

I was wondering though, about the afore-and-oft-mentioned Letters that Jennifer Wants You to Send... Perhaps you mentioned it before, but I'm curious what sort of guidelines she gave you for these letters... and if she expanded at all on the notion of why there is still hope and what reasoning behind her opinion that you'll have a 'new' woman once the affair is over.

I totally understand if you don't want to go into those things man, but given that I too am doing the 'detachment' thing these days and pushing her crap back over onto her side of the 'property' line rather than engaging in appeasement I kind of figured a dollop of hope might keep the door cracked open for a little longer for her.

Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/28/08 01:33 AM
hey SD,

Sounds like you've been busy. That single parenting stuff is for the birds. It's dang hard!! I feel for you brother.

Your letter was great and oh so Jennifer. She couldn't have said it better herself. I hope that you get some response from it.

I decided not to do mine again. The last few have gone unanswered, so I've basically given up on it. It just feels like pathetic begging to me at this point. And maybe I'm not sure that I want him back anymore. It's going to be very difficult for me to get over the fact that he passed himself off as divorced and lived with someone else behind my back. Hard to not feel resentful....

I think the bear was a nice idea though, and if nothing else, she will always remember that. Guilt will hit her big time one of these days.

What's happening with POSOM and POSOM's BS?

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 03/28/08 08:59 PM
Quote
I have become soooo strong and everytime I think of a reason I need to call him ..I call my friend or I tell myself i am hurting my chances of reuniting with him if I make contact. It makes it easier that way. I just remind myself that he never really left our marriage during his affair (Cake eating) and he returned home during it (only for 4 months or so) so I say to myself if OW was so wonderful and she was everything he ever wanted why would he leave her to come back home ...even if just for 4 months. Maybe it just makes me feel better to think of it like that. Whatever helps me not contact is OK with me at least for now.

You've gotten the hang of this, Ani. It gets easier--not the single parent part, but the dealing with all of the hurt and resentment and disappointment. You get better at filling your day with other stuff so that you don't wind up dwelling on it. And you've figured out that contact makes it all worse.

Quote
I was wondering though, about the afore-and-oft-mentioned Letters that Jennifer Wants You to Send... Perhaps you mentioned it before, but I'm curious what sort of guidelines she gave you for these letters... and if she expanded at all on the notion of why there is still hope and what reasoning behind her opinion that you'll have a 'new' woman once the affair is over.

Thanks for dropping in, James. Jennifer first suggested the letters when I described the SCQ as incredibly passive--that I wasn't sure she would ever take the initiative to come home even if she knew it was the best thing for her to do. I have always felt that she would need some kind of invitation if not help to make it back.

In terms of the new woman, my understanding is that it's the difference between one's wayward spouse and their spouse. Once the affair ends, the fog can clear (quickly, according to Jennifer) and the spouse can emerge. Jennifer has been right about everything so far, so I don't doubt that she's right about this as well. Of course, a key word there is 'can,' and a key word that's missing is 'when.'

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I decided not to do mine again. The last few have gone unanswered

I think the trick is to know that they aren't going to be answered and be okay with that. To tell yourself that it's going to be ignored. With the bear, I have basically convinced myself that I don't care what happens to it--if she burns it in the fireplace, if she and POSOM sit and laugh at how pathetic it is, whatever--I don't care.

The letters are seed planting for when the affair ends. Because it feels like the eleventh hour for my marriage, I wanted to follow up the last letter with another communication "Are you sure this is what you want?" and potentially talk to her face-to-face. Jennifer cautioned me--"As long as that affair is still going, you know what her response to these letters is going to be, right?" I already knew the answer, of course, which is nothing and is exactly what I have gotten.

Like I said, though, I'm tempted to have the follow-up communication. Do I know that it's pointless to try to convince an active wayward? Of course. Do I still want to try, or at least find out how Fogged she still is? Yes. The danger in doing so would be that I would LB and push her farther away and/or get myself hurt by exposure to FogTalk and push myself into being Done. The reality is that if she's still fully Fogged, I'm ready for the divorce to be finished. I have a financial incentive.

Quote
What's happening with POSOM and POSOM's BS?

Don't know. Haven't talked to OMW. At our last conversation, she was frustrated with me because I passed along information that eventually messed up her communication with POSOM. And I was frustrated with her because I realized that she has been letting him cake-eat all this time and that she's basically helpless against him. BR reminds me that spouses of alcoholics (which is what she--and BR--think POSOM is) are often more messed up than the alcoholic. Things could be very different if OMW had proceeded different, but that wasn't something I could control. So, anyway, I haven't reached out to her again, and she hasn't reached out to me.

I'm feeling pretty good when I'm not thinking about this stuff, which I have been a bit more over the past couple of days because the SCQ is asking me about taxes and lashed out a bit when I said I thought we should do them separately. So far I haven't let it shake me--staying productive at work, good with the kids, no depression, looking forward to my self- (kid-free) time today and tomorrow.
Morning, Guy Smiley!

Just wanted to check in and say "hi". You sound pretty good. Glad to hear you are finding a restful place without letting it get you into depression.

As a parent, I tend to feel guilty when I look forward to time away from DDs. But since there is not much we can do about it, we might as well enjoy it while we can.

As both my DDs will be in high school next year, it is really hitting me how quickly the time passes and they are grown before you know it.

Hold them close while you can....take care of yourself, and welcome the new day that comes, challenges and all. The alternative isn't so great. wink

Fox
Posted By: howtoheal Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/01/08 05:03 PM
Hi SDGuy- just wanted to say that my dad worked in a lab all his working life (microbiology- don't know what kind yours is, don't know the acronym you called it)- and we always LOVED going there as kids. And it was especially impressive when my dad had one of his grad students help me insert a vector into a gene for my semester biology project!!!

I can still smell the alchohol-y, chalk dusty smell and remember twirling on the stools...

Thanks for the memories!!

What's-her-face would be lucky if you still wanted her after all this.....
grin
HTH
My kid LOVES to come to work with me where I do my "Science" (what DS calls my job). He even said he wants to be a scientist when he grows up; of course, he also wants to be Indiana Jones, which is pretty heavy competition.

I usually set my son up with a pipettor, some pipet tips and some colored water, so he can do some 'science', too, when he accompanies me to do MY 'science'.

He actually got angry last time I went to work on the weekend and didn't allow him to accompany me.
That is so awesome! What great memories your children will have.

Fox
Posted By: Sadmo Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/02/08 02:48 PM
SD-
I was cleaning my house today, and for some reason your story popped into my head.... laugh

You know how you feel that your wife was always passive, and was easily swayed by people? And this seems to be why Jennifer has you writing the letters and why she thinks that there still may be hope? (I know I am kind of chopping it all down...)

It seems to me that this may be her statement, and maybe she has decided that she IS done with the M, for real... and you are just not accepting the fact that she is done, because she wants it to be done.

The reason I say this is because my EX was easily swayed by people. When he decided that he was DONE with our M, he was DONE. Normally he would have been swayed but in this case he wasn't. It was what he REALLY wanted. And he stuck by what he really wanted. Can I fault him for that? Yes, and no. We had kids, we had a family, and he decided to just walk away from it. BUT... on the same vein, we were not happy together, and it would not have been a happy place for our kids unless we both were committed, and wanting, to save the M.

I kind of got to a place where I was thinking that I had 'lost' the battle, and to someone that was easily swayed at that! BUT, the reality of it was that he was standing up for what he wanted for once. Not that it was in the best interest of our family, but we were not happy.

I think you would be able to have a better R with her if you just accepted this, and started to work on the R you both need to have to raise your kids in the best environment that you guys can create together, yet apart....

Do you know what I mean?

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/02/08 05:25 PM
Thanks for stopping by, guys.

I like bringing the kids in to work as much as possible. I work for a major pharmaceutical company, though, and we have pretty strict safety regulations, only some of which I ignore. Our site did an awesome 'Take your child to work day' thing here a couple of years ago, where we had different stations where they learned all about the drug development process. They got to do everything from look at computer-projected protein structures to create their own label for a new medicine. My son still talks about that one.

I hear what you're saying, Sadmo. It could be that the SCQ is really done. She certainly thinks that she is, and it would be easier for everyone in the short term if I went along with that.

If she's just done (as opposed to still EnFogged), it would mean that she let our marriage expire without ever making a serious attempt to save it or even having expressed any unhappiness prior to my discovery of her affair. She said nothing. Plus, I believe that when you have children, you assume a certain responsibility, and in this case, she would be completely ignoring that responsibility.

So, yeah, it's possible that she's capable of just walking away, but if this is the case then I brand her shallow and pathetic and despise what she is and how it has affected me and my children and am disappointed in myself for choosing such a weak, small person to be my mate. It's easier for me to deal with Fog. The Fog of Affair can be forgiven. It will be much harder for me to forgive the other.

Sadmo, I really appreciate your concern and thoughts, and I'm sure you're not the only one who has them. I should probably say that just because I reported what Jennifer was advising me to do doesn't mean that I'm going to follow it to the letter.

Quote
take care of yourself, and welcome the new day that comes, challenges and all. The alternative isn't so great.

Yes, Fox. This is what I'm trying to do. I'm living the days as they come, going where they take me. It's not a bad existence. I am not unhappy. Lots of people would probably love to have what I have.

I'm trying to live a good life. I'm going to try to keep the door open for the SCQ's return for as long as it's reasonable, but I'm not going to bend over backwards to do so. It doesn't really cost me that much to hold the door open.

Soon I will be divorced. I can enter into that with good conscience. At that point, I would be able to see other people with a clear conscience, and that's when holding the door open gets tricky, but that's tomorrow and I'm busy with today.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/02/08 05:37 PM
Quote
it would mean that she let our marriage expire without ever making a serious attempt to save it or even having expressed any unhappiness prior to my discovery of her affair. She said nothing.


THAT sounds familiar!

Quote
So, yeah, it's possible that she's capable of just walking away, but if this is the case then I brand her shallow and pathetic and despise what she is and how it has affected me and my children and am disappointed in myself for choosing such a weak, small person to be my mate. It's easier for me to deal with Fog. The Fog of Affair can be forgiven. It will be much harder for me to forgive the other.

This too.

Maybe we are brothers.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/02/08 05:53 PM
Not the first time we've detected similarities, mis amigo.

I still think it's Fog. There's warmth in there somewhere under all that ice, but she's so lost.

And Sadmo, it's not a power struggle thing for me, or a win/lose thing. It's a right/wrong thing and a best/less good thing. Sure, we could do it this way, but it's wrong. Plus, it's not what's best for our children in the long term. I really appreciate your thinking of me!
Quote
Quote:it would mean that she let our marriage expire without ever making a serious attempt to save it or even having expressed any unhappiness prior to my discovery of her affair. She said nothing.


THAT sounds familiar!

Quote:So, yeah, it's possible that she's capable of just walking away, but if this is the case then I brand her shallow and pathetic and despise what she is and how it has affected me and my children and am disappointed in myself for choosing such a weak, small person to be my mate. It's easier for me to deal with Fog. The Fog of Affair can be forgiven. It will be much harder for me to forgive the other.


This too.

Maybe we are brothers.

Oh, how I wish I wasn't one of the 'brothers' in this sitch, but it seems to be true. I'm having a hard time with this, guys. Really, really hard.

Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/03/08 12:38 PM
I'll throw my hat into the sibling ring here too.

SD.. you've once again managed to capture exactly how I feel and why I've still got my foot in the door she's working so hard to slam shut.

Not much to add other than another kindred spirit.
Yep, me too. Hello to my sista and brothas from anotha motha.

Dang, we're hip. whistle

SL....I'll go check out your thread. Chin up, girl, you are one that so many of us admire. It IS hard. Harder probably for you than the rest of us. You had HOPE renewed.....and then had that ripped out from underneath you too. I feel for you. ((((SL))))

Aw, heck. Group hug (((((SL, Guy Smiley, chrisner, Jamesus, Sadmo)))))

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/03/08 11:16 PM
Perspective.

Yesterday DS8 had a baseball game, so I left work early so that I could pick up both kids, get DS8 changed, beat my way through traffic in time for the game at 4:30. The games are held at a field where the ocean breezes blow through, keeping it pretty chilly (um, for Southern California, anyway). Yesterday, I sat out in the outfield (and sunshine) with the moms instead of right behind the screen where the into-it-let's-win dads sit.

One of the moms (who has a little girl that DD4 plays with at the games) arrived at the mom sitting place and said "You know how you can have a perfect day going and have it turn on you suddenly?" I was listening with the other moms. She started out "I had a spa day set up" but then when she got home they couldn't find the shirt and this was missing and everything was hectic and "it was all because I just wasn't organized and so all that relaxation from the spa was ruined."

I smiled sympathetically and didn't really think "You want to hear about problems?" although I could have. I think I said something like "And yet everyone is here for the game, bla bla bla, let that stuff go and recapture your relaxation."

Anyway. Later in the game, DD4 comes back to me, needing to use the bathroom. They have a port-o-john set up, so I walk with DD4 back over to where it is. I note that she has taken off her shoes and socks at the playground and think "great, barefoot in the port-o-john." So when we get to the thing, I'm trying to lift her so that she doesn't step on the floor of the port-o-john.

Now, as I'm doing this, it occurs to me "She's been running all over hell and back barefoot, but now I'm worried about what she might step in?" Still, I started it out that way, so I might as well finish that way, and I'm bending over to lift her when she's finished, and Whoop. Out of my shirt pocket and into the drink slides my cell phone.

"Gee, that wasn't supposed to happen" is what went through my mind. The cell phone was only partially submerged, taunting me on what to do next. I looked in, and the liquid actually looked pretty blue, as if it had been recently serviced, so I figured what the hell and reached in and got it.

After wrapping the phone in paper and leaving it in the trunk of my car, I got back to the moms and opened with "Remember how you were talking about your day changing in a flash? Well, try this one on." Then the moms plied me with wipes ("Why, yes, I think I would like the anti-bacterial ones this time."). I, of course, had none.

It's all about perspective.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I'm sorry, guy, but that is pretty funny! I know the whole wet cell phone thing stinks (it stinks, get it? stinks?-bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha) but when I read it, I giggled (of course, it could be the glass of champagne I had with my dad).

I, for one, think you are a fantastic dad! The whole bit about lifting DD4 up onto the toilet seat, even though she'd been running around outside without her shoes on. Good stuff.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/04/08 12:09 AM
I owe you an email - so I thought I'd pop in here a sec...

We hold the door open for as long as we do...because we are parents and because we really did mean the words "for better or for worse".

I stayed because of who I wanted to be, not because of the person I thought he should be...

When I filed for divorce - it was because *I* was ready, not because of whatever state of mind he was in which I could not know or even guess.

This trying to get in your spouse's head to make decisions about your own life is ... not wise.
Posted By: Sadmo Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/04/08 04:13 AM
SD-
I know what you mean, that your spouse would actually just WALK AWAY without even trying. IT SUCKS. But it is what it is.

She will have to one day face what she did. Maybe she WILL be fine with it, maybe not. I agree though, that once kids are involved, at least a LITTLE effort should be put into saving the M....

I for one, have been a lot happier since my D. Me and my Ex get along a lot better, I do not feel the need to be overly friendly with him, which is fine. We talk kids, and that is IT. He recently tried to talk to me about "what I do when he has the kids", and I said, "I am just doing what I want to do." I do not offer him ANY details about my life, or ask him any about his. And it works out great for us. He has been around to watch the kids when he is REQUIRED to, and sometimes, though not often, he will take them when he is not required to. It works out well.

I know what SL meant on her thread when you can look at the person you were married to, and not even recognize them. I feel that way with my EX. It is weird. But for me it was a momentous occasion: I (my heart)did not feel connected to him, and even my MIND did not feel connected...

You are an AMAZING, AMAZING Dad, I just wanted to tell you. It makes me smile that you take them so much, and you do so much with them. WAY TO GO. Your kids will never forget that about you. And, BTW, the 'take your kids to work' day sounded great, I bet it was fun. It is good to see you so involved in your kids' lives. You should be proud of that: that you took your role as a parent seriously, and that you will ALWAYS be there for them.

I just think that once people that usually are swayed by others decide to FINALLY make up their mind about something, and DO IT, they are so full of "This is MY decision" that they will not look much further than that triumph. My opinion.
You seem like you are doing well. Just don't make your happiness about IF you are a complete family, make it about if you are a GOOD family, even if you have a D. That is the important thing.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/04/08 05:41 AM
Hey, a BR sighting. Thanks for dropping by!

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This trying to get in your spouse's head to make decisions about your own life is ... not wise

My goodness. How tame of you. But seriously, was I doing that? I was trying not to do that.

Quote
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yeah, I thought that might amuse some people. smile If only it weren't completely true.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/04/08 05:49 AM
Quote
Just don't make your happiness about IF you are a complete family, make it about if you are a GOOD family, even if you have a D. That is the important thing.

Thanks again, Sadmo. I hear what you are saying, and I know that I will get to this place some day. I believe that will come with Doneness, because then I just won't care anymore. I will know that I did everything I possibly could, for better or for worse.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/04/08 03:13 PM
You should have opened the phone, brought it to the "I'm having a bad day spa lady" and told her, "It's for you."
Posted By: howtoheal Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/04/08 03:52 PM
SDGuy- I hope your cell phone still works! If it's any consolation, I'm usually out of wipes when I need them too.
Waterlogged cell phone. Really ups the resale value!
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/04/08 05:42 PM
Talk about a crappy conversation.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/04/08 11:37 PM
Quote
Waterlogged cell phone. Really ups the resale value!

No, no, I know it says waterlogged, but it wasn't really water. It was that blue disinfectant water. How did that get in there? Well. . . .
BLOOP!(ringtone) Hang on I gotta get this....
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/07/08 07:05 PM
Another tough day.

This week is spring break for DS8. Some time ago, the SCQ said she would like for the kids to spend the spring break with her parents, and I agreed that it would be fine. I had assumed that she would be leaving the kids with her parents for the week but didn't want to actually talk with her about it and asked DS8. DS8 told me that the SCQ was going to be there the whole time.

I made the mistake of attaching a glimmer of hope to this. Thinking that if the SCQ was actually going to spend a whole week at her parents, that maybe--well, you know.

Anyway, Saturday morning I made ready to take the kids to her place at the agreed-upon time. Two different times she TM'ed me to tell me that she was running late--was still at the store, and could I bring the kids by later. Sigh.

Later, DS8 calls me to ask where something he needed to take with him is. I tell him I will leave it outside for him to pick up. While on the phone, DS8 tells me that the SCQ isn't going to be spending the week there, but that it will be okay. I realize what else this means but let it go and go on about my weekend, which was going really well.

Sunday late afternoon, DS8 calls me again. I engage in 'how's it going' chit-chat, which he participates in, but he doesn't call for that sort of thing. What he wanted to tell me was that he "can answer one of my questions about POSOM," namely does he smoke. The answer was yes, but not very often. "Ah," I say, "is he there with you?" "Yeah," he replies softly. This was the other shoe, of course.

The SCQ used to be a fanatical anti-smoker. Hated it. Hated everything about it. The smell. . . everything. All of her siblings smoke, but her parents don't and never have.

It's hard to blame the in-laws for letting the POSOM into their home. They want to see their grandchildren. It's likely that the kids' visit was set up before she told her parents who would be coming, maybe even to be used as leverage to get them to accept POSOM. It's also possible that she didn't even tell them he would be coming. Nothing would surprise me.

So I'm angry, and it's buzzing around my head again.

Angry that the SCQ didn't tell the kids what was going to be happening.

Angry that he got accepted into their house.

Angry at what a disgusting, pathetic person the SCQ has become.

Angry at what she's doing to our children, who deserve SO much better.

Angry that I married into that dysfunctional family to begin with.

Angry that I will be paying for that mistake forever.

Here's the email I want to send: It's great that you broke up our family for a future with a lying smoker who drinks to excess. He's certainly a great influence for our children.You must be so proud of your parental judgment and the example you have set for them. I'm sure your parents are.

Trying to get the venom out so that I can get back to my life.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/07/08 07:47 PM
Yep, that all sucks alright. As I recall my IL's all turned out to be a bit of a disappointment. Just more of the crap that can not be controlled.

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The SCQ used to be a fanatical anti-smoker. Hated it. Hated everything about it. The smell. . . everything.


Wayzilla too. Gollum is a part-time smoker too.

No need to respond to it. Might as well go to the zoo and discuss Brownian Motion thermodynamics with the lemurs during mating season. You won't get much out of it.

Sorry Amigo. This stuff stinks.

I think *I* heard that shoe drop.

My IL's have always helped PWC out. He's family, you know. I'm not. Just how it goes. I remember sitting and talking to PWC's younger brother, three years ago, when this all started, and seeing FIL and BIL so bewildered over PWC's choices and actions. Didn't keep them from harboring him when he had nowhere to go. Didn't cause them to question him about his choices. They basically just grinned and went about their business, as PWC had sex with another woman. Just the way it goes.

I have always seen this as my battle to fight; not my IL's or my family. I was always grateful when they stepped in to help, and took their help gladly. They couldn't save my M; it was always up to me and PWC. PWC chose not to.

I have learned to have no expectations, really, not in these situations. It's easier to just see what happens and then act. You never know what people are really like until they are faced with a crisis or challenge.

Anyway, I don't wanna preach. These are her parents. Whadya gonna do?

Now, if your children are in danger, that's another story alltogether, so don't think I'm some pushover. There is just only so much that you can control. You can control how you go about your life, and how you handle your personal life. You just can't control SCQ.



Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/07/08 10:50 PM
I hear you, SL. I've been back and forth on whether or not to expect anything from the ILs. I'm fairly certain that they've done everything that they are capable of, which is perhaps not as much as I would like but is certainly all that I can expect.

I had been assuming the worst of them for a time, but in January I had a phone conversation with FIL, and from that conversation it was plain that he had been trying to talk sense into her (as gently as he could), but that the SCQ is heels-dug-in stubborn about it. It gave me a glimmer of hope (everybody else gets this, why can't she?).

It was clever of the infidels to couple meeting POSOM with a visit by the grandchildren, because how can my ILs refuse? No, I don't blame them for not being able to pull her out of the Fog (the dysfunctional household in which the SCQ grew up is another story).

It was only a matter of time for this (POSOM meeting and being accepted by the family). Another hurdle in this marathon in hell. Or, this analogy comes to mind: we are being carried by the raging river toward the waterfall, and this was one more branch I shot past without being able to grab it.

OMW called me today. I only had a minute to talk. She didn't know where he is, so I told her. She said "He was over here Saturday morning mowing the grass--that explains why he was trying to get out of here." (Shopping, indeed.)

OMW tells me POSOM is coming to her place tonight to work on their taxes. She's so helpless. Classic cake-eating.
I'm in no way saying that you should just throw in the towel and prance toward divorce. Nope. Just saying that you are still in this control phase. This need to DO something. I suppose part of that is not being done, which for SCQ is a GOOD thing.

If the day comes that you could give a rat's a$$ if SCQ comes back or not, she is toast. With the modified, dusk Plan B, this may be approaching more quickly than with a black as night planB. Meh, what the heck do I know.

You know, just focus on the journey, whether it be in water, on water or above water.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/08/08 06:31 PM
I woke up feeling good today. Feeling content with my life and what I'm doing with it.

Anyway, I would like to think that I have given up attempts to control the situation. The ones I do now are ones that Jennifer approves of--the letters, trying to influence the ILs (by having the kids call them and letting the ILs know that the door is still open).

The need to DO something isn't so persuasive these days--it's more like minor impulses come and go.

Today is a good day.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/09/08 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
I woke up feeling good today. Feeling content with my life and what I'm doing with it.

Anyway, I would like to think that I have given up attempts to control the situation. The ones I do now are ones that Jennifer approves of--the letters, trying to influence the ILs (by having the kids call them and letting the ILs know that the door is still open).

The need to DO something isn't so persuasive these days--it's more like minor impulses come and go.

Today is a good day.

Congrats on the good day man. We all need those every so often smile

If there's anything I've found lately it's that the good days are fewer and farther between the more removed I am from the drama.

Sip a frosty one, lounge near the beach, and don't go gerbil hunting for a few days and I'm sure you'll string a few more together.

I'm trying to hang up my gerbil hunting gear for the season myself, so I know it's easier said than done.. but there's SANITY just waiting over the next hill.


Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/09/08 12:19 PM
SD,

I can relate to how you feel. I was feeling that way many months ago.

One of the greatest moments you can reach is the moment when you finally accept that nothing that goes on on the other end will make sense and you must simply accept it.

Don't get me wrong, my buttons still get pushed from time to time, but I don't let it show anymore.

So it will get better. Keep your focus on your kids and being there for them. They are the one's who matter in the end. They are the ones who remember who wanted to keep the family together and who faltered.

My father cheated on my mother and it led to their divorce. It's been 10 years. He's been forgiven, but it hasn't been forgotten.

One thing to remember, though, is that a child doesn't like seeing the other parent attacked or criticized venemously. My parents have been divorced for 10 years now and they stayed with me recently to see the kids and offer support. They hung out together at my house and it was great, but there were moments of feeling "disgusted" with my dad.

Why? He made jokes about infidelity in a TV program we were watching. I couldn't watch. I've been the victim of infidelity from my wife and from my dad and it isn't something I enjoy watching.

I left.

Do I have a good relationship with my dad? Yes, but it took years and it helped when he divorced the OW.

So your kids will remember who faltered and who didn't. They'll remember who was playful with them and took part in their events and who wasn't.

They'll remember who put them first in their life.

Just keep the faith and focus on them and all will be ok.

You will never figure SCQ out and will simply waste brain cells and time trying to do so.

Take care.
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One of the greatest moments you can reach is the moment when you finally accept that nothing that goes on on the other end will make sense and you must simply accept it.

I'm working on this one. I was just thinking this morning, while driving in to work, will these thoughts of wondering if I did enough ever cease. I'm not obsessing, but I'll hear a song or see a movie, and wonder if PWC really knew how much I loved him, and would THAT have changed anything, if he REALLY knew.

I believe the answer is NO. I believe he was a brick wall.

I was pondering posting if this type of thinking wanes with time. I keep picking at myself, dissecting everything I did and DIDN'T do. I could have been more this ,or less that, and THEN maybe things would be different. Then I read threads where the WS's seemed just like mine when they came home, but eventually, the other WS's started to pull their own weight, as in mvg and StillCrazy's cases. I have to recognize that MINE did not, and there was virtually nothing that I could do about it. I WANT to believe that there was nothing more I could do.

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You will never figure SCQ out and will simply waste brain cells and time trying to do so.


I hear ya, PapaO'3
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/09/08 04:12 PM
The thoughts of "if only" don't ever really go away, I think. They are still there. There just comes a point where you accept that thinking that way is a waste of time and you move on to do other things or think about other things.

Believe me, my love for my WW was the strongest it had ever been when she told me she wanted a D. I believed for a long time that she was making a big mistake for her, us, and the kids by wanting to go down that path.

It took me a long time to let go of that. Do I still think she made a mistake? Yes. We rushed into a major decision that will have a very long term affect on our kids.

BUT, dwelling on that had me stuck. I was stuck in constantly replaying things in my mind and looking for some glimmer of hope the fog would lift and all would be restored.

I don't think that stuff goes away very quickly, especially when you're the one that didn't want the D, but it does eventually lessen and then it gets to a point where you DON'T want that and then to a point where if the opportunity arose there would be no way in he** you'd take it.

I'd be willing to help my ex if she needed the help, but only because she's the mother of my kids and for no other reason. Helping her helps them.

Letting go of the conflict, however, is a wonderful thing. Realizing that some battles are simply not worth fighting over is a big leap to make and it is very liberating.

SD, I'm sorry if you feel this is a threadjack. I am sharing thoughts on things you're going through.

It will be tough for you to see your WW with OM for a while, maybe always. It will be tough to see your kids be affectionate with OM, if that day ever comes. But there comes a day when you accept it and are ok with it, at least in terms of accepting that you kids will always be yours no matter what and you will always be #1 to them.

OM will eventually disappear. It's just a matter of time.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/09/08 06:39 PM
Nope, no TJ worries, and thanks for stopping in. I value your comments.

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Letting go of the conflict, however, is a wonderful thing. Realizing that some battles are simply not worth fighting over is a big leap to make and it is very liberating.

Much wisdom here. I get better at this all the time. I just posted something along these lines to Fox. It becomes easier to not respond not just because I'm avoiding LB'ing but because it's not worth my breath to do so. There's just no point in fighting over it, or even staying angry about it, for that matter, because it is.

I chatted with MIL last night when I called the kids. She thanked me for the wooden puzzle I made and sent them, and then we chatted about DS8's homework project, and then I told her (in a non-sanctimonious way) that I didn't blame them for letting POSOM into their house--that I know they didn't have a choice.

Which led to lengthier conversation. MIL understands that the SCQ is making a mistake but is powerless to prevent it. She doesn't have the appreciation for the insanity of infidelity that we have around here, but she wants what I want. Still, I found myself throwing out the statistics, telling her how POSOM is a bad guy who has been lying to and using her--trying to convince MIL as if she could say some magic words to the SCQ. I said "I just want you to know that I'm doing what I can to keep the door open so that the SCQ can return to our family," and she said "Yes, I just don't know how to make that happen."

I walk around my house which I have been making mine and wonder whether I really want that shallow broken person back in my life, but given an opportunity, all of the desire for recovery comes bubbling out again. Guess I'm not Done yet.
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Nope, no TJ worries, and thanks for stopping in. I value your comments.

Quote
Letting go of the conflict, however, is a wonderful thing. Realizing that some battles are simply not worth fighting over is a big leap to make and it is very liberating.

Much wisdom here. I get better at this all the time. I just posted something along these lines to Fox. It becomes easier to not respond not just because I'm avoiding LB'ing but because it's not worth my breath to do so. There's just no point in fighting over it, or even staying angry about it, for that matter, because it is.

We each make our own decisions on what IS worth fighting for. What is important to me may not be important to someone else.

There are MANY things that I let go of.....this was not one of them.



I'm glad you received some reinforcement from MIL. We all need that from time to time. Even though they are as powerless as we are, it's nice to know we are not alone.

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I walk around my house which I have been making mine and wonder whether I really want that shallow broken person back in my life, but given an opportunity, all of the desire for recovery comes bubbling out again. Guess I'm not Done yet.

Why? What keeps you hanging on so long? Aside from the children, what is the gain to you?

Honestly, I'm wondering how you have maintained this for so long.

Fox
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/09/08 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
I walk around my house which I have been making mine and wonder whether I really want that shallow broken person back in my life, but given an opportunity, all of the desire for recovery comes bubbling out again. Guess I'm not Done yet.


Right here with you on this bro.

I also understand still throwing out the line to the IL's and in effect keeping them on your side.

For me, being a visual thinker I realize there's nothing they can do NOW.. they won't be able to 'reason' with her any better than I could.. but it's shooting the arc for the future.. knowing that SCQ may just need a nudge in the right direction at the right moment... and that moment could very concievably come during a conversation with MIL (or in my case FIL).. lamenting however their magical turd of a relationship ends.. and the IL's saying.. you know, SDGuy never once gave up on you.. and on and on from there..

Yeah.. it's a nice little daydream, and it gets all those reconciliation juices flowing again.

But then take a breath, look at what IS today.. and keep moving towards your own recovery.

I'm almost getting to thinking that the personal recovery.. for a lot of BS's has to come first whether marital recovery follows or not... I just wonder how many give up and force 'done' before they're really ready to be there.. and end up making another bad choice into a 'rebound' relationship..
Hi James

You make many good points here. Good insight on the InLaws.

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I just wonder how many give up and force 'done' before they're really ready to be there

I'm not sure that it is giving up or forcing done. I think it more as reaching a limit. When the cost to hang on comes directly from your soul and you are no longer willing to pay the personal price.

Some have higher thresholds than others. Or have more in their reserves and are willing to pay a higher price.

In some cases, I suppose, it could be "forcing" done because while the heart wants to go on.....the soul can't cover the price and "done" must occur for the soul to cuts it's losses.

Fox





Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/09/08 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by wildhorses74
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I'm not sure that it is giving up or forcing done. I think it more as reaching a limit. When the cost to hang on comes directly from your soul and you are no longer willing to pay the personal price.

Some have higher thresholds than others. Or have more in their reserves and are willing to pay a higher price.

In some cases, I suppose, it could be "forcing" done because while the heart wants to go on.....the soul can't cover the price and "done" must occur for the soul to cuts it's losses.


Amen to this.

It's not so much that you force done as it is reaching a limit. You eventually get to that point.

Reconciliation staying in my mind for a long time until she made a false allegation against me. That killed the idea of it. I never thought she'd go down that path, but she flirted with the idea of making a false allegation about the relationship with my DD5 and killed any thoughts of reconciliation from that point forwards. That someone would stoop so low is beyond me.

That pretty much got me to my limit.

I can forigive, but that's a tough one to forget.

Luckily she stopped going down that path. Why? I don't know. My daughter is supposedly being evaluated about these allegations and there has been no finding on it.

SD, be careful about this. False allegations are common. Be very careful and on the lookout for it.

You don't miss her. You miss the idea of her and the family you don't have anymore. You miss having your kids every day and sitting down together as a family.

She's trying to replace you with OM, but you will always be daddy to the kids no matter how hard she tries.
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/09/08 07:38 PM
I obviously haven't figured out how to do quotes, so read the body of my "quote".

Sorry about that.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/09/08 08:34 PM
Quote
Aside from the children, what is the gain to you?

This first struck me as being like "Aside from the oxygen, what's so great about breathing?" It is all about the children. What wouldn't I do for them?

Would I commit the rest of my life to a relationship I know I couldn't be happy in? No, but since our marriage hasn't had a real shot at being repaired, I hang around for that opportunity. Since I believe we could be happy again and that that would be what's best for the children, I hang in.

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Honestly, I'm wondering how you have maintained this for so long.

What I said above and because (about some things) I am incredibly stubborn and persistant. Part of it comes from being a die-hard fan of the Chicago Cubs for over 30 years. Perserverance. Now I will have two things to wait for with low-grade hope--the Cubs to win a Series and for my wife to pull her head out of her [censored]. It will be a race. I accept that neither may happen in my lifetime.

But the other part of it is what's the alternative? What would I be doing differently? Dating is about the only thing I can think of, but it's not like I've been beating the women away with a stick. Anyway, I'm still married. When I'm not married anymore, maybe I'll date, and if I find someone else and that ultimately precludes a recovery, well, so be it.

But that stuff that makes me unhappy right now? When I see my kids in pain over this? My dating isn't going to make that any better. The stuff that hurts me now would still be hurting me if I was dating and had "moved on."

To those of you in the audience who feel an urgency that I move on, I tell you that I am content with my life right now. I am doing what I want to do with it. I am trying to do the right thing, and I don't see myself looking back on this some day and thinking "what an idiot I was for trying to do the right thing."

Today is another good day. Except that I just tweaked a low back muscle again and it hurts a lot.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/09/08 08:50 PM
Thanks, James, and P.

You've come a long way, James.

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SD, be careful about this.

Thanks for the advice. The SCQ has really been decent to me in terms of settlement and custody. She's not vindictive or trying to hurt me, and I haven't really given her a reason to do so. I'm aware that the POSOM is a real dirtbag, though, and I think that he is calling the shots, so I'm trying to be careful.

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You don't miss her. You miss the idea of her and the family you don't have anymore. You miss having your kids every day and sitting down together as a family.

This is true--I no longer miss her. When I think about it, though, I can summon up the feelings I had when the two of us were still in love, and I would like to feel that way again. I remember the comfortable efficiency of our marriage, that we were a good team. That we think about things in the same way (even at the mediation, this was apparent to me).

If the SCQ were to want to come back to the marriage the way some of the FWS's on this site have done so, I am confident that it would be enough. It would be nice to at least give it a shot.

Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/09/08 09:52 PM
Quote
I remember the comfortable efficiency of our marriage, that we were a good team. That we think about things in the same way

Very nicely said! I feel the same way about my former marriage. I do miss my wife. We had a great marriage for many, many years.

I never want or need to see or speak to Wayzilla again.
Boy, I miss that too. I miss, mostly, the throw back your head in laughter; the comfort and the ease with which comingled. It was really nice. Harumph! Oh, well. Whadya gonna do?
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/09/08 10:46 PM
Quote
I miss, mostly, the throw back your head in laughter

Me too. The laughter that made tears run down your cheeks and left you gasping for breath and holding your sides. That was all the time. That was not very long ago.

I hope I can someday laugh like that again.
Well, now that just pisses me off. WZ (or the wife that used to be known as Mrs. Chrisner) is a stupid head!

Meh, whadya gonna do?

Wait, didn't I already say that. Must be the champange talking. The champagne talking and my lightheaded yearning for the spaghetti sauce that is cooking on the stove. The champagne talking and my lightheaded yearning for the spaghetti sauce that is cooking on the stove. See, now I'm repeating myself.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/09/08 11:48 PM
Champagne again? Man, I want to have dinner at your house. I'm becoming more and more bachelor-ish all the time when it comes to food.
You pay just as much for a good champagne as you do a good wine, and I bought a champagne saver thingy, so I try a new one now and then.

Anyhoo, I will prolly still cook, trying out my lighter recipes, tweaking them here and there. I like fresh veggies and REAL cooking. I'll just eat lotsa leftovers and give some to the WOLVES at work.
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Quote
Aside from the children, what is the gain to you?

This first struck me as being like "Aside from the oxygen, what's so great about breathing?" It is all about the children. What wouldn't I do for them?

Would I commit the rest of my life to a relationship I know I couldn't be happy in? No, but since our marriage hasn't had a real shot at being repaired, I hang around for that opportunity. Since I believe we could be happy again and that that would be what's best for the children, I hang in.

Okay - you're still willing and able to pay the price.

Originally Posted by sdguy038
Quote
Honestly, I'm wondering how you have maintained this for so long.

What I said above and because (about some things) I am incredibly stubborn and persistant. Part of it comes from being a die-hard fan of the Chicago Cubs for over 30 years. Perserverance. Now I will have two things to wait for with low-grade hope--the Cubs to win a Series and for my wife to pull her head out of her [censored]. It will be a race. I accept that neither may happen in my lifetime.

But the other part of it is what's the alternative? What would I be doing differently? Dating is about the only thing I can think of, but it's not like I've been beating the women away with a stick. Anyway, I'm still married. When I'm not married anymore, maybe I'll date, and if I find someone else and that ultimately precludes a recovery, well, so be it.

But that stuff that makes me unhappy right now? When I see my kids in pain over this? My dating isn't going to make that any better. The stuff that hurts me now would still be hurting me if I was dating and had "moved on."

To those of you in the audience who feel an urgency that I move on, I tell you that I am content with my life right now. I am doing what I want to do with it. I am trying to do the right thing, and I don't see myself looking back on this some day and thinking "what an idiot I was for trying to do the right thing."

Today is another good day. Except that I just tweaked a low back muscle again and it hurts a lot.

I'm certainly not saying you need to date, nor do I feel an urgency for you to move on.

I just don't want the personal price you pay to cause an overdraft before you notice it.

I want what is best for you and your kiddos, my friend. You know best whether SCQ has the ability to join you and be worthy of you at some point.

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/11/08 03:22 PM
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Part of it comes from being a die-hard fan of the Chicago Cubs for over 30 years. Perserverance.


Perserverance? That's masochism!

But...uh...coming from a guy from Minnesota who has been rooting on the alleged professional football team from those parts since Joe Kapp was their quarterback the taunt loses much of it’s impact.

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I just don't want the personal price you pay to cause an overdraft before you notice it.

Truthfully, this has been my unsolicited worry too.

Have you ever tried gerbil trapping? I don't know what their pelt is worth and it probably takes a couple thousand to make a decent coat but it's probably easier than lunging at the little [censored].

Have a great weekend SD and Cowgirl.
You, too, chris!

We're supposed to have pretty nice weather. 60's on Saturday and 70's on Sunday. Windy - but we'll deal with that. Hopefully, it is a nice Chinook Wind. ....or as Mariah Carey would say "a Schnook".

DD14 and I are planning a nice long horseback ride. DD13 is with WH this weekend.

I've got that filly that needs to be worked with - her injuries are all healed up except for the scars. We'll know this spring whether she's going to be able to remain sound.

What's everyone's plans for the weekend? Guy Smiley, feel free to chime in here. cool

Fox

Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/11/08 03:52 PM
At last! A use for gerbils!

Fun With Gerbils!
Posted By: bitbucket Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/11/08 03:59 PM
Errrrmmmm....is that video safe for work? Does it have Richard Gere in it..?
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/11/08 04:01 PM
No! Way better!

Breach loading cannons!
Posted By: bitbucket Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/11/08 04:08 PM
Bugger all! Youtube is blocked from work and my proxy is down! Silly gits.

There was a great squirrel catapult on youtube too - that was hilarious.
Posted By: howtoheal Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/11/08 05:46 PM
oh my goodness. that was hilarious.

Do any of you ever watch "The Root of All Evil" on Comedy Central? They debate between two different things which is the root of all evil. The other night it was between Porn or YouTube. It was decided that YouTube was the root of all evil.

I missed the one between [censored] Cheney and Paris Hilton...

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/12/08 12:01 AM
Quote
But...uh...coming from a guy from Minnesota who has been rooting on the alleged professional football team from those parts since Joe Kapp was their quarterback the taunt loses much of it’s impact.

I guess I haven't told you which NFL team I follow, but my favorite color is purple, in case that gives you any clues. I'm trying hard to become a Bolts fan, though.

Dogged, persistant, stubborn, perserverant, masochistic loyalty, misplaced though it may be.

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I just don't want the personal price you pay to cause an overdraft before you notice it.


Truthfully, this has been my unsolicited worry too.

Yeah, I'm not surprised. I've worried about it myself and had conversations with my IC.

How does one know when this happens? What are the results of overdrafting?

I asked once if I could break myself doing this, but she didn't think I could. I think she wants me to be done as much as anyone, but if I'm content. . . if my life isn't really that bad . . . if things like depression aren't beating me up and making me dysfunctional. . . what's going to happen? Won't I just stop caring at some point?

It's probably moot. The SCQ and I have been exchanging emails over final settlement. The house appraisal finally got done, so I suspect it will be over fairly soon. To which I say "Whatever."
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/12/08 12:42 AM
Hey SD,

Glad to hear you are doing fairly well. I say what's the rush? Do what you need to do in your own time. Things will work out in the end the way they are supposed to. You'll be done when you're done. Or not. If she does come back, and you still want to recover, she is the one who is going to have the biggest uphill battle. I'm sure she knows deep down what a mistake she is making, but I think sometimes that WSs feel that they've done to much damage to recover. It's just easier to stay with the OP at that point. Then when that R begins to crumble..

Keep focused on you and the kiddos and you will always know that you did the right thing. They are very lucky to have a dad like you, and someday they will be very grateful.


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Fox Quote: I just don't want the personal price you pay to cause an overdraft before you notice it.


Chrisner quote: Truthfully, this has been my unsolicited worry too.

sdguy quote: Yeah, I'm not surprised. I've worried about it myself and had conversations with my IC.

Awareness. That's a good thing. I just didn't want it to sneak up on you. Sounds like you have it covered.

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sdguy: How does one know when this happens? What are the results of overdrafting?

My guess is that you know when the overdraft happens when you do get to the point of not caring....and realize how much of yourself you gave. And maybe feel it was such a waste.

The results of an overdraft? My guess would be a longer road to personal recovery. You gave so much away that in order to recover that.....you have to work longer and harder to regain yourself.

This certainly may not be so for you, specifically. If your life is good and the only thing that you would do differently if you were "done" would be to date, I say good for you. If this is the case, you probably aren't in danger of overdrafting.

You sound healthy, sdguy. I'm glad to hear it.

You'll get to the point of "done" when it's your time, when your heart and soul are content with the effort made.

Wishing you and yours only the best.

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/14/08 04:07 PM
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What are the results of overdrafting?

Extreme psychosis, hallucinations, frothing at the mouth, a fondness for rubber suits and possibly erections that last for more than 4-hours. Call your doctor if you experience these overdraft symptoms. If you experience the last one, call all your friends and brag.

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I guess I haven't told you which NFL team I follow, but my favorite color is purple, in case that gives you any clues.

A Cubs fan and a Vikings fan? Sorry brother, no wonder you’re depressed.

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I'm trying hard to become a Bolts fan, though.

Does SDG&E have a football team?

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You sound healthy, sdguy. I'm glad to hear it.

As healthy as a Cubs/Vikings fan can be.


Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/14/08 04:59 PM
Quote
A Cubs fan and a Vikings fan? Sorry brother, no wonder you’re depressed.

Yeah, and (get this) my college team (BB and FB) is the University of Minnesota. That's right--the Golden Gophers. A speed bump on the season schedule for Michigan and Ohio State.

I'm not sure exactly what this says about me short of loyalty well past the point of sanity.

I've never cared enough about the NBA to have a team (could have been a Bulls fan during their run)--I guess if I started now it would probably have to be the Clippers, right?
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/14/08 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Quote
A Cubs fan and a Vikings fan? Sorry brother, no wonder you’re depressed.

Yeah, and (get this) my college team (BB and FB) is the University of Minnesota. That's right--the Golden Gophers. A speed bump on the season schedule for Michigan and Ohio State.

I'm not sure exactly what this says about me short of loyalty well past the point of sanity.

I've never cared enough about the NBA to have a team (could have been a Bulls fan during their run)--I guess if I started now it would probably have to be the Clippers, right?


Well look at it this way brother.. I've been a Chicago Blackhawks fan for life.. some things just don't get better yet we choose to hang on..

You know.. I wonder if we took a survey of BS's (who survive an A that goes past exposure) if we wouldn't find that they too have an almost fanatical devotion to a team..


our chief weapon is suprise... suprise and fear... and an almost fanatical devotion to the pope... our three weapons are....
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/14/08 06:48 PM
My cousin was Goldie the Gopher in the early '80's. He got to pose with the cheerleaders and such. He is 6'-5" so he fit the costume pretty well. Sounded like fun.

I think of that when I see one of those "battle of the mascot" commercials.

I went to about a dozen Viking games at old Met Stadium. Fran Tarkenton, Chuck Foreman, Allen Page, Rashad, on and on.

I have one of the wood fold down seats with cast iron ends from the Met in my garage.

Now the Mall of the Northern Hemisphere sits there.

Progress......

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/18/08 04:42 PM
Goldie is a great mascot. Way better than that Buckeye thing or the train.

Chief Illiniwek was pretty cool til the PC Police (Don't disrespect Native American cultures) finally brought him down. Along those lines, I've always wondered why there aren't huge crowds of Scandinavians protesting the use of cultural stereotypes at Vikings games. I mean, have you ever seen Ragnar?

Anyway, I'm doing well. Another full weekend with the kids--baseball practice this afternoon, a game tomorrow, and we're planning to go to Seaworld on Sunday.

Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/18/08 05:10 PM
Ragnar is wussy longhouse trash compared to the old guy they had in the late 70's and into the 80's. That guy was great.

I would love to see a Minnesota Scandinavian protest about the cultural steroetype of the Vikings. I can see them interviewing Lena now: "Ohh you know..those Viking football people make me sooo mad don'tcha know. Would you like some hotdish?"

I got through the "paper cut" round so I interview this afternoon for the head girls coach job at the high school DD20 graduated from. Should be fun.

Have a great time at Seaworld. Don't put your head in a Killer Whales mouth! It's only a matter of time.
Yeah, blah blah blah Viking's and blehbetty bleh mascot's. I'm right there with ya. (where is that confarndit rolley eye emoticon, DANG!!!)

Sounds like a nice weekend. Gonna be in the upper 70's round these parts, really good mowing weather, and garden cleaning upping weather. Probably go to the park and have a PICANIC with my DS. Otherwise, all's quiet on the Eastern front, which is nice.

Have a good one, boys!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/18/08 05:28 PM
Man, I hate paper cuts, although I haven't had a bad one for a while. Hope yours doesn't hurt too much. Anyway, good luck with the interview.

Picanic sounds great, SL. The mowing, not so much. Are there bears who will come around and try to steal your picanic basket?
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/18/08 05:41 PM
Quote
Yeah, blah blah blah Viking's and blehbetty bleh mascot's. I'm right there with ya. (where is that confarndit rolley eye emoticon, DANG!!!)

Sounds like some one who has spent to much time at Beaver Stadium or something.

"Alright Boo Boo, you distract the ranger while I grab the pic-a-nic basket."
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/26/08 08:06 PM
Dear SCQ,

Did you know that mental health professionals equate the psychological trauma of having one's spouse commit adultery to that of being raped? Think about that. Now think about how much better off our children would be if their father had been in a better state of mind. Look at all the damage you have done. And what did you ever do or even attempt to repair any of the damage? You ran away, and you're still running.

And for what? You break our home and deprive our children of one of their parents for *half* of their lives all so that you can be with a lying, smoking, probable alcoholic. Wow. You must be so proud. What a role model you are. What a small, weak, pathetic person you are. DS8 and DD4 deserve so much better than you as a mother. I continue to hold the door open, offering you a chance to be better than what you have become. I don't know how much longer it will stay open.

SDG


Good thing! Whew, that was a doozy. :eek:

I've had my own lingering thoughts lately; I found myself reciting them out loud while I was mowing today. My neighbors have to be suspecting mental illness at this point. crazy Not many people talk to themselves while mowing...that I know of.

Going out to buy the ever growing boy some new spring/summer stuff. Hopefully you can have a better day now.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/26/08 09:48 PM
Quote
Hopefully you can have a better day now

Oh, yes. Right after that I went for the most wonderful massage. Now I'm off to DS8's baseball game. The SCQ will be there, but she will keep her distance.

Quote
I found myself reciting them out loud

Does this work? Writing them down (or posting them) definitely helps me.

Clothes shopping for small children. . . I'm not genetically adapted for this, but I do it anyway.


Posted By: mlhbisme Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/26/08 09:56 PM
"Did you know that mental health professionals equate the psychological trauma of having one's spouse commit adultery to that of being raped? Think about that. Now think about how much better off our children would be if their father had been in a better state of mind. Look at all the damage you have done. And what did you ever do or even attempt to repair any of the damage? You ran away, and you're still running.

And for what? You break our home and deprive our children of one of their parents for *half* of their lives all so that you can be with a lying, smoking, probable alcoholic. Wow. You must be so proud. What a role model you are. What a small, weak, pathetic person you are. DS8 and DD4 deserve so much better than you as a mother. I continue to hold the door open, offering you a chance to be better than what you have become. I don't know how much longer it will stay open."

That was awesome SD! I would love to send something the same to my ex without the open door part. That door closed 3 years ago when I tossed him out. But the rest? oh yea...

mlhb
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/27/08 02:48 AM
Got triggered again at the game. Was a nice game--close, exciting, DS8 pitched and did well enough that the coach was joking he would leave him in til his arm fell off. Chatted with other parents.

I was distracted by the fact that I couldn't see my daughter. The SCQ was there, and she set up on a towel far away from me. I wanted to know whether or not she was there without being obvious about it, but by the end of the game it was clear that DD4 was not at the game. It's pretty safe to assume that the SCQ left DD4 with POSOM and his daughters, playing Big Happy Family.

On top of this, I was feeling conspicuous as the only parent leaving the game without a child, so I was a bit bent in the car on the way home. Then I decided to go walk on the beach. It's been a glorious day here--about 75 degrees by the water with a perfect breeze. As I walked there were a few dolphins (not great white sharks, and yes, that was a couple of miles up the coast from where I walk) moving up the coast at about the same pace I was walking, so that was fun. On the way back, there were tons of pelicans fishing, nose-diving down into the water, which is something I could watch all day.

At the end of my walk I ran into my day-care provider going out for her walk, and we chatted for a while. I wanted to but was not compelled to (and ultimately didn't) tell her what the SCQ had done with DD4.
It's excruciating to read, guy, so it's got to be painful, and I'm sorry it is this way. Even though I could use the break, I miss DS every second that he's away, and I'm missing moments of his life, special ones. He lost his first tooth while with PWC the other night. I probably missed a good meltdown today, and something really cute; he's only got so much really cute left, before this little boy phase wears off.

Your walk sounded so beautiful; I'm pea green sick with envy. When we WOULD go to the Outer Banks (lord only knows when I'll be able to afford that again) I loved to sit up on the deck or dune and watch the dolphins in the morning, with my cupOjoe. It's so soothing, listening to the waves crash and then glide away. Lucky dog!

I watched the movie Lars and the Real Girl. It was a movie well done. In it, Lars asks his brother when he knew he was a man, and his brother said his answer was that it's when you do what's right. You do it, even though it's not easy. You work to provide for your family, you don't cheat on your wife, you do what's right.
I was so surprised to hear those lines in a MOVIE. I often wonder if I'm expecting too much, as if it's ABNORMAL to want a MAN for myself. Seems I'm not the only one who defines manhood as such, so I suppose there's hope.

Anyway, maybe it's TMI, but I felt like sharing.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/27/08 04:58 AM
Thanks, SL. It gets easier all the time to be matter-of-fact about it, which is good, because it is. I'm having a pretty good evening to myself and looking forward to a good day with the kids tomorrow.

Sorry about DS and the tooth. That sucks. Just the kind of things you don't want to miss and are extra sensitive about because we know that it doesn't have to be this way. Sigh.
So sorry to hear about the trigger at the game. My goodness, I've felt that feeling like I'm standing out as an outsider because I'm not taking DDs with me when we leave a concert or game. It's all in my head, though. Who really pays attention?

Honestly, everyone is wrapped up in their own post-game congratulations/sympathy conversations with their own kiddos. No one is watching you to see if you have a kid with you. Many parents get their seperately and leave seperately because of work schedules or the schedules of the other kids.

You ain't that darn special that everyone is watching you. wink

Take care, sdguy. Keep getting those massages and taking those long peaceful walks (I'm soooo jealous, BTW).

SCQ probably left DD with POSOM as a power play against you, just because she CAN. She would be pretty hurt if YOU didn't bring DD with you when it was your time with her. Selfish, as always, they can only see their RIGHT to do things.

Fox
Originally Posted by wildhorses74
Clothes shopping for small children. . . I'm not genetically adapted for this, but I do it anyway.

Wal-Mart + Garanimals = God's gift to single dads on a budget.

DS4 is in T-ball and is the big stud on the team. His last game I didn't have him so he didn't come home with me. I know that feeling, but it is what it is. Nothing we can do about it. I can also identify with the beach walking, except our coast isn't exactly what you would call "solid" so I have to get in a boat when I want to see the porposes and pelicans.

Actually, I don't really have anything to say. It was just nice to read something I can completely identify with, it's been a while since I've been able to do that.

Just wanted you know I'm right there with you.

Take Care Amigo

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 04/28/08 05:45 PM
Hey, thanks for dropping in, BC.

So, I can match colors and actually have some taste about what's pretty and what isn't. Maybe where it falls apart is making sure that things fit just right. I remember that at that age (and this one, come to think of it) I hated trying on clothes, and DS8 is no different, so I basically wing it and hope that what I buy or order fits.

Quote
Honestly, everyone is wrapped up in their own post-game congratulations/sympathy conversations with their own kiddos. No one is watching you to see if you have a kid with you. Many parents get their seperately and leave seperately because of work schedules or the schedules of the other kids.

You're right, of course, Fox. It was the 'Who's watching DD4 right now' that really had me frosted. Our custody agreement has a right of refusal for babysitting. The SCQ left her in someone else's care for more than 2 hours, so technically she should have asked me if I wanted to watch her instead, and I thought about calling her on this with a snarky email before letting it go. DD4 almost certainly had a better time at the pool with POSOM's daughters than she would have at the game (recognizing things like this is called "progress," I think).

Had a pretty good time with the kids yesterday given that it was freakishly hot here (at one point, my outdoor thermometer read 99.9 and 2% humidity). Last night I wrote another "Jennifer Special" it-doesn't-have-to-be-this-way card and sent it over with the kid stuff. I'm increasingly ambivalent about them. I wonder whether I'm motivated by the fact that they probably make her uncomfortable?

Oh, well. New week.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/05/08 03:06 AM
Hey SD,

Update????

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/05/08 11:09 PM
Update. Okay, it's been a while. Short answer--I'm fine. Nothing much has changed. Had a good four days with the kids, then a good Sunday by myself.

The SCQ was not there when I took the kids over yesterday. Dropoff is officially at noon, but there was no answer when we showed up at 12:10. No TM this time. She showed up maybe five minutes later. Her being late for this kind of thing is now habitual.

I haven't said anything to her about the lateness. I was angry in the moment and in the car ride away from her place, when I had the thoughts running through my head of things to say to her "How many times do you think you can be late receiving the kids before they realize that you care more about POSOM than about them? Or do you suppose they have already figured that out?" but that only lasted for a few minutes. After that I was fine and didn't think about it for the rest of the day.

Months ago, the SCQ and I agreed to work out our own settlement agreement without lawyers. I am confident that this will benefit me in more than just saving legal fees, but it has been proceeding at a snail's pace, and not because I'm stalling it.

We got the house appraisal about three weeks ago and exchanged some ideas at that time. I told her that if she wants me to pay out the whole amount (rather than leave some of her equity in the house), she should drop spousal support. Then it got quiet.

So quiet that in my last "Jennifer Special" card (sent a week ago), I prodded a bit. In the middle of it, I said something like "You may believe that it is too late and that things have gone too far, but they haven't. We are still married. I continue to respect and honor our marriage vows. You can put a stop to this divorce with a phone call and one word to me." I fully expected and half-wanted a hastening of events in response to this (being reminded that she is still married), but there was no response until today, when she emails me telling me she's considering dropping spousal support and asking me if I'll up the payout a bit. I said yes.

I do believe I have fully entered "What gerbil?" territory.
Well, I suppose instead of lunging, you are now at prodding the gerbil. I can understand wanting her to just get this over with, to make a decision once and for all.

You really have done your part. Maybe it's just time to ignore the gerbil all together and get darker. It sounds like the indifference has begun to set in.

I don't even really bother to update anymore. I'm not in Plan B to save a M, I'm in Plan B to head to divorce. It's not even relative to MARRIAGE BUILDING. It's denoument at this point. Who really needs to hear about me gardening and playing baseball with my kid. Oh, one interesting thing. DS has been playing with my wedding band, and he decided to take it out of the house (after I asked him to return it to it's rightful place). Well, this morning I asked him where it got to. He had NO idea. I got a little miffed, and then teary, and then he got teary, and then I talked to him about keeping out of my 'valuables' and then all was well. My dad was getting the mail for me, and lo and behold, there it was, on the ground. Weird, I thought it was gone forever, but that ring refuses to get lost; it's tenacious. I suppose I had hoped my WH would do the same. MEh.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/06/08 04:40 AM
Would you have known I was prodding the gerbil if I hadn't admitted to it? It's pretty subtle. The indifference to her return is definitely setting in, though.

Quote
I don't even really bother to update anymore.

I hear you on this one, SL. It's hard to even try to help out anyone else most of the time, too. I completely understand why Bugsy and LilSis don't come around much anymore.


Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/06/08 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Would you have known I was prodding the gerbil if I hadn't admitted to it? It's pretty subtle. The indifference to her return is definitely setting in, though.

Quote
I don't even really bother to update anymore.

I hear you on this one, SL. It's hard to even try to help out anyone else most of the time, too. I completely understand why Bugsy and LilSis don't come around much anymore.


Egads.. either I'm catching up to you quick Smiley, or maybe since the M was so short I'm just coping faster.

I think I'm getting to much the same place, though I don't think I'd describe what I feel as indifference... but I can totally relate to just wanting a resolution to this feeling that my life is completely up in the air and I'm not the one doing the juggling.

As for the posting updates thing, I can relate here as well. Life is going on, and for the most part it's good and I have very few complaints. Most of the 'trouble' is coming with WW wanting to talk 'business' when she comes to pick up DS. I think I may have thrown a wrench in this last effort at her asking me a favor by telling her to just email me and I'll think about it and get back to her.

She emailed, but it was to basically tell me to nevermind on what she was asking. I didn't respond.


Maybe indifference is a good word.. can you be indifferent and still care? I'm a sucker for paradoxes.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/06/08 03:27 PM
Quote
I don't even really bother to update anymore. I'm not in Plan B to save a M, I'm in Plan B to head to divorce. It's not even relative to MARRIAGE BUILDING. It's denouement at this point. Who really needs to hear about me gardening and playing baseball with my kid.

I do.

I root for you all in your personal recovery from adultery every single day. I want to know how you all are and what you are feeling because I am right there with you. I update every week or two both to let the 3-4 people who still look at my thread know how I am doing and to continue to journal my progress as a single man and father. Divorce is certainly not the end of this mess. It takes time, reflection and patience to come to a full awareness and acceptance of what has really happened to your once very happy family. This site still helps with that for me. As do all of the amigos.

As far as I am concerned, I hope you all keep posting until you can walk across the rice paper without tearing it and snatch the pebble from Master Po. Then you can go.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/06/08 03:39 PM
Quote
I told her that if she wants me to pay out the whole amount (rather than leave some of her equity in the house), she should drop spousal support. Then it got quiet.

smile

jenus
Alrighty then, I'll update once in a while. I guess with all the drama gone, I just don't feel compelled to post. It's nice to not have all that dramatic crap going on inside me. Now, I have to sort it all out; what's mine, what's his, blah blah...
I ditto what chris said. Even what we may consider mundane - can help others see that life DOES get better and there is a light at the end of the dark tunnel they are heading into.

I remember when I couldn't see that light. At all. Not even a speck. My life was OVER. I was certain that I would not be happy again. That I would never again be able to think far enough ahead to even PLAN to go outside to garden.

Knowing that we will not ALWAYS spend every living moment thinking of the WHs and being wrapped up in their every move and demand, helps tremendously.

Don't stop posting. We want to know what is up with you.

And chris......there are certainly more than 3-4 people looking at your thread.

I haven't posted much either....mainly because work has started getting really busy, but also because there isn't much going on. I know what you are saying about the "everyday" stuff, I'm there, too. We really ought to post, though.

Take care, all!

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/06/08 05:38 PM
You guys are right. Regular posting is a good thing. I still have lots of unsaid things simmering below the surface, and sometimes I need to vent them out, and I'm not ready to say them to the SCQ. This is the best place to do that, because you guys get what I'm talking about.

Along those lines, I was chatting with a friend (also a BS) recently. I was telling her that the father of one of DS8's classmates died suddenly a couple of months ago. The kids were on the same baseball team last year and had been in the same class in a previous year, so I got to know the father a bit and already knew the mom. One day he wasn't feeling well, went to the ER that or the next day, and died of a staph infection the day after that. Poof.

It was about three weeks before I actually ran into his widow at the end of a baseball game. I approached her and gave her my best "I'm so sorry" and "if you ever want to talk with someone who has experienced significant, sudden loss" spiel, which I whole-heartedly meant. She was really messed up. At the same time, however, I was thinking that she was better off--that it was better that he died than cheated on her.

My friend responded that the exact same thing had just happened to her. The dad had dropped dead of a heart attack in his mid-40s, and my friend said she had looked at the mom and "was filled with envy." Which was another part of what I felt but was afraid to vocalize.

What do you suppose a wayward spouse would think about that? That I'm jealous of a widow and think that my kids might be better off, too? For the record, most of these emotions are past me--I don't have those surges anymore, but I can remember them.
Weirdy weird weird.

Just this morning, I'm walking up the hall toward my office, and the thought struck me; if PWC had died instead, I wonder if I would have felt half the loss as I do now. It's all speculation, because he didn't die. He cheated on me . It's just DIFFERENT loss. I don't envy anyone; well maybe I envy, a little, the love that they still shared up until the last day, the innocence of their relationship.

I sometimes still mourn the innocence that I had, and it being ripped away. I am happy that I have a more realistic view, but I would have preferred not to gain wisdom in this way.

I still have remnants of feeling for the man I married, but PWC is who he is now, and I'm slowly coming to accept that. I'm finding it to be no easy task. I still have this fantasy that PWC will return, as he was before the A's, and comfort me. I've actually had dreams like this over the last week or so. Even when I'm dreaming, I KNOW it's just a dream. I think I caught myself chuckling in my sleep during said dream.
When STBX made her attempt last year, there was a part of me that wished she would have succeeded.

A year later, while still not mother of the year, the damage in her relationship with DS4 is somewhat repaired and I'm glad that DS4 has two parents that give him love. I can say NOW that I'm glad she didn't succeed.

Those feelings seem like a hundred years ago now, but at the time they were very real and very raw.

Just another reminder to those in battle that things get better eventually.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/06/08 07:45 PM
Quote
I remember when I couldn't see that light. At all. Not even a speck. My life was OVER. I was certain that I would not be happy again. That I would never again be able to think far enough ahead to even PLAN to go outside to garden.

Yep. That seems like several years ago now. It was only 14 months ago for me.

We have come a long way.
Posted By: Sadmo Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/07/08 05:44 AM
I remember too. I remember thinking to myself that I would never be able to laugh again, think about even dating, or able to stand the sight of EXH.
But, I am able to laugh, again, if not more than before, which to me speaks volumes. I do date a little, and I like to think about it, and I can see EXH, and I do not feel ANYTHING.

In a lot of ways I am glad that it is over. The only time I am not is when my kids miss him.

But, it is amazing, time DOES heal wounds.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/07/08 12:12 PM
Well SD, with the developments in my sitch recently, I had some of those thoughts about death going through my head. Not that it would have taken away the A, but some thoughts along the lines of beneficiaries etc.

Just being practical you know?

Here's what I mean. A couple of months ago, the H of a friend was killed in a car accident. They think that he had a heart attack and lost control. She made the comment that we both suffered the loss of a H. I thought she had it way easier for a lot of reasons. He left knowing that they both still belonged together, he wasn't with someone else, there was no betrayal to deal with, hopefully they would see each other again someday, AND she was the beneficiary of all of the assets - life ins., retirement funds, house etc. Here I am at 53 staring retirement in the face with basically nothing now. The D will pretty much wipe me out. There is definitely a practical side to M isn't there?

In my D support group last night we watched a film regarding the healing process. Everyone tells you to "get on with your life" but they cautioned us to "get on with our stability" instead. Makes sense. In the film they interviewed a dozen individuals or couples who didn't heal before they got into another M or relationship. All disasters. Hurting people just want the hurt to go away so they think that someone else can take it away. It's only temporary. During this time we tend to operate on emotions more than normal, and we know what that leads to.

Anyway, the rule was 1 year of personal recovery for every four years of M. OK, so for me I guess this is the end. How many hot dates take place in nursing homes?

Their stats said that 76% of 2nd marriages fail, 86% of 3rd marriages fail, and a whopping 98% of 4th marriages fail. My assumtion was that these excluded affairages. Stats on those I'm sure are higher.

I'm rambling and not sure what I'm trying to say anyway, so I'm getting off now. Need some caffein to get going this morning I guess...

Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/08/08 12:01 PM
SD,

Quote
hear you on this one, SL. It's hard to even try to help out anyone else most of the time, too. I completely understand why Bugsy and LilSis don't come around much anymore.

I'm around,,,,just not posting as much as I often feel the same as SL in that it doesn't seem that important to share seemingly mundane details of my life these days.

HOWEVER (and there's always a however in life), like Chris, I enjoy, root for, and benefit from hearing about everyone else no matter what's happening with them! It is a continuing process in which we get to similiar stages at different times.

I celebrate every GOOD & Wonderful thing you all share here, and I so so so often feel & understand the difficulties. In so many ways, we are all in this together. (sorry to quote a Disney Movie song! ha!)

I was out of town on business since Monday and was catching up with everyone this morning. I read SO many posts that express many of my feelings, emotions, and mirror where I am in dealing with Drac! It did lift my spirits a lot.

So,,,,,,,,keep those updates coming everyone. I may not post but I am reading, laughing, crying, cheering, and praying right along with each and every one of you!

Chris - - I was thinking of skipping the rice paper. I am instead training for the walk across the burning coals; its feels like I've been doing that for the last year! ha!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/09/08 12:16 AM
Thanks for dropping in, everyone. Having the familiar posters around (seeing the familiar faces?) is another good reason to keep posting. I'd like to think that someone has learned something from reading my thread, even if it's what not to do.

The SCQ will be dropping off DD4 at my work in a few minutes. The swimming lessons take place on the college campus (where the SCQ works and has a parking pass), and at this time of day, I balked at committing to them, so the SCQ takes her to them (even though it's my day). For the past three weeks, the SCQ has come by my work (close to the campus) and dropped off DD4.

It's fun, because DD4 likes to come to my work and is really cute. It's not particularly triggering. I manage to focus all my attention on DD4 and not interact with the SCQ at all generally.

I've had some low-grade anger bubbling under the surface for the past couple of days. Last night I had a dream where I said all the things I have not told her so far. It wasn't a real Plan FU, but it was following her around the house trying to make all teh various points (the typical "if only you could see that" stuff). Even now, I still have the temptation, to try to make her see what she's doing--how it's hurting the kids, how she will lose their respect, etc. Might as well tell it to my car, right?

It's a long weekend without the kids, and I'm looking forward to the time. Going to relax, relax, relax.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/16/08 04:57 PM
Update: I'm okay.

Work is fine. Kids are good. Parents visiting, which is always great and helpful.

But I've been feeling a bit out of sorts lately, and I can't quite put my finger on what it is. Feeling unfulfilled? Needy? Angry? Sad? All of the above? I feel like I need or want something, but I don't know what it is.

About a week ago (and via email), the SCQ and I reached an agreement on division of assets that works well for me. It was very businesslike and favors me, but maybe that has me triggered anyway.

This morning I got an email out of the blue from my high school girlfriend. Just trying to re-establish contact and inquiring about how my life has turned out. It's been 20 years since I've talked to her, so there's really quite a bit to tell, but what's at the forefront of my mind? This (the implosion of my marriage, breakup of my family, being a victim of infidelity).

When does my life stop being about This?
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/16/08 05:43 PM
Quote
When does my life stop being about This?

When you have that answer let me know. But, time and distance does heal.

Now about this:

Quote
This morning I got an email out of the blue from my high school girlfriend. Just trying to re-establish contact and inquiring about how my life has turned out. It's been 20 years since I've talked to her, so there's really quite a bit to tell, but what's at the forefront of my mind? This (the implosion of my marriage, breakup of my family, being a victim of infidelity).

If she is married......as the raven said, "Nevermore."
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/16/08 06:30 PM
Quote
If she is married......

She isn't. She lives in Chicago, so it's not exactly a temptation for me, either.

Maybe I just need BR to come around and tell me to quit wallowing. I think if I saw someone else saying these kinds of things, I would ask them what they've done to take care of themselves lately. My life is really pretty good.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/16/08 07:17 PM
Quote
tell me to quit wallowing

Quit wallowing.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/16/08 08:22 PM
Thanks.

Not quite the same, somehow, but I appreciate the effort.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/16/08 08:34 PM
No problem. I know you like your advice wrapped up in new-age flagellation but that has not typically been my style.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/21/08 10:27 PM
So the roller coaster ride has continued into one of those dips. Lots of anger and depression about the way things have turned out. What a disgusting person the SCQ has become, that my kids and I are stuck with this situation, that I'm lonely for companionship. And all for what.

Sigh. Not sure how to shake it. Hoping posting a bit will help. And time with the kids.
I'm gonna tell you what I told SL.

KNOCK IT OFF!!!!


I heard a song earlier today.....the lyrics don't really relate but the title does - "I'm better as a memory than as your man"

Right now, as you well know, SCQ is better as a memory than as your wife.

Sounds like time for some yoga and a massage.

Fox
Ha Ha! Foxy yelled at you too!

Just ride it out.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/21/08 11:45 PM
Quote
Sounds like time for some yoga and a massage.

Did that yesterday and still feel crummy today.

Being yelled at helps, though. smile
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/22/08 12:11 AM
SD

I not gonna yell at ya. I've been in the dip these past few weeks too. On the upswing now though. Anyway, I understand the companionship part. In 4 years I would be doing good to say that I had seen WH 100 times (days). Realistically a lot less. I feel like I've been seperated that long anyway. It just gets plain old.

So whine a little, but then get back on track. I hate to be a downer, but I don't think either one of us has a lot of chips at the craps table. We're just both in crap, and I think I'm just about done with crap. We're the ones eating alone, watching TV alone, sleeping alone etc while the WS has all their needs met. Then we have to welcome them back with open arms?

Here's to ya SD. See you after American Idol....
Funny, I don't miss PWC nearly as much as I miss the idea of him.

Oh, crap!

I'm listening to an Allison Krauss compliation, and she's singing "I ain't missin you" with John Waite. Geez (rolley eye). It's beautiful. BAd timing.

"in your world, I have no meaning, though I'm tryin hard to understand"

DANG!!! what a great line. Must be some experience behind that lyric.

Anyway, this, too, shall pass. I get MUSHY when I hear songs or think about some ideal situation, but reality is soooo much different. I try, these days, to remember that WS as much as I can, how he IS right now, today, when I look back or idealize how things USED to be.

I do long for a companion, and some lovins. Repairing a piece of myself only a lover can reach. Otherwise, I'm A OKAY. I have faith that I will REAP what I SOW, and I'm working hard to do GOOD, especially by my son.

Anyway, just some thoughts.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/22/08 01:22 AM
Can't yell at you either man, though I imagine a lot of folks have secretly been yelling at me.

Still stuck in the Plan A the W, plan B the WW mode until we hear back from the eval.. which I've also been anxious about seeing as it's been a month now and no word.

This means when she's playing nice I play nice, and when there's the venom spew I wander off. It's almost a Pavlovian approach, but it's been leaving me with more down days than not as she's been MUCH more talkative and 'playing nice' these days.

Were the legal bit not in the way, and my son safe at home with me, yeah.. this would be the PERFECT moment for Plan B.

Still.. leaves me in the crud quite a lot and I completely feel you guys on the whole companionship thing. Heck guys.. I've thought about letting the dog in bed just so I have 'someone' to curl up with.

Chris.. don't even -think- about hitting that quote button..

It's just gotten that bad some nights.

Fact is though Guy.. you and I both have the same problem.

We just ain't all the way done yet.



Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/22/08 03:42 AM
I sleep with my dog, and it's kinda like having WH in the bed - she snores like a freight train, hogs the bed, takes all the covers, and farts sometimes too.
Posted By: Sadmo Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/22/08 04:58 AM
It is what it is.
And you HAVE to learn to accept it.
Once you do, you will be so much better. You will be able to move on.
I am not saying necessarily move on to a new R. But move FORWARD, instead of looking back.
You have a whole life ahead of you, look at that. Don't look at what could have been, what should have been.
Live more in the present. It will do you wonders.

Silly point, but the 'Dog Whisperer' always says how dogs don't live in the past, they live in the present, what is happening to them NOW. And they react. I think sometimes that it is a good way to live, when there has been such a trauma as infidelity.

Live, Breathe, and LOVE. It is what you are here for.

I wish you well!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/22/08 06:16 AM
Thanks to all, starting with Fox. I actually wasn't being sarcastic when I said it helped when she yelled at me. Knowing that there are people out there who care about me makes a big difference. It's also a good reminder for me to post more, which seems to help me avoid funks.

I bounce around in my mental state--Doneness, acceptance, letting go--all of it. Even trying to look inside the wayward mind and convince them of things is a wagon I have fallen off of from time to time.

Lots of anger lately. Maybe because of the settlement negotiations (via email), which went well for me but demonstrated her continued waywardness. Or maybe having the absurdity of our situation pointed out a lot lately.

Case in point. DS8's baseball games. She only shows up at games on her days (mercifully), which have been the minority, but there have been two of those in the past couple of weeks. I sit with the rest of the parents (moms, mostly) in the outfield. The SCQ shows up and carefully sits apart from me, maybe 50 or 75 feet away. DD4 is free to wander around and has spent more time sitting with me than the SCQ.

At one game she announced rather loudly "I wish this was a daddy day" in front of a family I am friends with (and who know the situation). Then my parents were with me at the last game, so she spent almost all her time with us. The SCQ was sitting off by herself while we were talking with the rest of the parents (including explaining my predicament to one mom who talked first about her own unusual marriage). It was uncomfortable to be a party to, so much so that my mom went over and talked with the SCQ for a while.

It's absurd that we have to live this way, but like you said, Sadmo, it is what is is, and when I am able to respect that without getting angry about it, I'm a happier person.

I think she might have been uncomfortable about the game because she got snippy via email over homework instructions later that night. She sent me a text message asking me to scan some instructions and email them to her, and I didn't get the TM until after the kids would have been in bed, so I emailed her that I couldn't scan them and that he should have called me if he had needed something. I thought it was DS8 asking for them and couldn't see anything from the instructions that he would have needed, but it turns out that she was the one who wanted them. So then she got testy with her response. I could explain how the whole thing was a miscommunication to her now, but why bother. What I'm really doing is biting back the urge to say "You're the one who has chosen this absurd lifestyle for us, so you figure out how to deal with homework instructions."

Last weekend was my full weekend with the kids (when my parents were here). But this weekend is Memorial Day, and since she had it last year, I get it this year, which means according to our schedule I get this full weekend, too. Then, according to the calendar, I would have the majority of the next weekend as well. It was feeling like a lot of time, so when the SCQ asked about how to work this weekend, I told her I didn't need all of it. We worked out an agreement such that she will have some more time this weekend.

I got the kids back today, and when I told them this, they already knew it for the most part. I mentioned that it would have been another full weekend but that I gave some time back because I thought they could use some more time with their mother, and they each told me that they would rather be over here. I wasn't fishing, and I'm still a bit surprised about how quickly it came out, especially from my 4-year old.

Maybe I should tell her I've changed my mind about the weekend--that I've decided to keep the whole weekend because the kids told me they would rather be with me.
I'm glad you didn't take offense that I yelled. I meant it to be funny.

Of course we care, don't doubt that for a moment. I've heard it described as a pendulum before - and I really relate to that. Sometimes I'm on a real high and others I'm in a funk. Finding lots of time in the middle, too, though.

It's kind of like a grandfather clock. You give the pendulum a good swing to get it going and it settles itself into the right rythm.

We're still finding our rythm. It'll come.

Quote
"I wish this was a daddy day"


That is so sweet!

Quote
my mom went over and talked with the SCQ for a while.

I have a tough time with these type of interactions. SCQ made her bed and it would be awful tough for me to accept one of my family members smoothing an awkward situation that they created.

Keep posting, Guy Smiley. Even if just to vent. That stuff has to go somewhere or it ends up in your shoulders and neck.

Fox

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/22/08 07:29 PM
Quote
That stuff has to go somewhere or it ends up in your shoulders and neck.

You are wise, Your Foxiness. I've been fighting my shoulders a lot lately. Another massage scheduled for Saturday.

Quote
I have a tough time with these type of interactions. SCQ made her bed and it would be awful tough for me to accept one of my family members smoothing an awkward situation that they created.

Yeah, I hear you. She understands that these kinds of things make me twitchy, but she checked with me first. Later she told me all they talked about was the kids, but it was understood that I didn't want to hear about the SCQ or her life or anything.

Quote
I'm glad you didn't take offense that I yelled. I meant it to be funny.

Funny and therapeutic both.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 05/23/08 02:20 AM
I survived DS8's open house. The SCQ had told me that if I didn't want to be in the same space as her, we could switch off the kids halfway through, which is what we did. I did the first half.

I meant to say hi to DD4 at the swap but found I didn't want to get that close to the SCQ. I just kind of pointed DS8 towards her and walked off. Not that big a deal, since I dropped DD4 off tomorrow.

Triggering.

I was kind of wandering around the school, looking at families, when some of my neighbors walked up and asked me how things were going. My response was "I hate my wife." They already knew that, of course.

I feel okay, though.
I'm not looking forward to DS's birthday party Saturday, since PWC is going to be there. Whatever. He's a business partner now, so I'll just treat him like that, without all the handshaking and niceties.


DS will be six years old in just a few short hours.
Gang all checked in today, sdguy. Where u b?

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/04/08 06:52 AM
Been busy with work and play, but have been meaning to check in. Just got home from the baseball game, and it's too late--I'll post something tomorrow.

Thanks for asking!
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/04/08 11:31 AM
Glad to see you're still doing well Guy.

We've been missing a shovel.. smile
Hey.....

I saw you floating around a couple of threads this morning but I don't seen an update on your thread.

Wazzup?

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/04/08 11:08 PM
I'm lazy. Or still trying to formulate what to say. I've been busy with kids and work

Over the past five weeks or so I slowly descended into a funk and have been slowly coming out of it. I think the source was lots of contact (emails over generic kid stuff as well as working out asset distribution and being at baseball games at the same time).

I've improved. The anger is more like pity over the past several days, and the internal conversation hasn't started up in the vacant moments (driving, falling asleep) the way it was previously. The whole dating urge came back at me a few weeks ago, but that has largely gone away again. So I'm getting better at recognizing these signs (after they have dissipated, anyway) of funk. Not sure how to apply it.

I checked in with my lawyer on the agreement the SCQ and I worked out, and it is in my favor. In exchange for a few thousand more from the house equity, the SCQ agreed to drop spousal support. It works out to a little over a year's worth of payments (maybe she figures she will be remarried by then). She also waived a claim she could have made on some assets that are mine.

She continues to courteously and dispassionately (albeit slowly) proceed with the divorce. She respects my plan B--she keeps her distance. She even sent me a text message at the baseball game the other day (when we were doing a kid transfer) asking me where I wanted her to leave the stuff. From like 50 feet away.

Maybe this is an issue for me. I have found myself back on the 'Why can't she see that this is absurd' bus. All the stuff I have been wanting to tell her has been churning (Can't you see how stupid this is? Can't you see what you're doing to your kids and how much respect for you they're going to lose?)

Or maybe I was paying a price for continuing the Jennifer-letters and whatever shred of hope goes along with them. I sent another one of those via email a few weeks ago (It doesn't have to be this way). There was no response (like all the others), not that I was expecting one.

It's the roller coaster, I think, and I was recycling some old wounds (how can you think this is a good idea? how can you walk away from 14 years of marriage like THIS?)

I've been keeping busy doing fun things. The Cubs have been in town, and I'm taking both kids to the game tonight. I went with friends on Monday and with DS8 last night. Trying to make the time be about the kids when I have them (Summer Splash at the school, watching movies together, going to the Wild Animal Park).

Doing stuff I want to do when I don't have them--yoga, massage. Took a long walk on the beach on Sunday. I'm completely hooked on scroll-sawing, too. I've been making wooden puzzles out of different woods. If I knew an easy way, I would post pictures of them, because they are way cooler than anything I thought I would be able to do. DS8 had a birthday party to go to over the weekend, and I spaced out the present until stores were already closed, so DS8 and I were trying to come up with something. DS8 said "we could give him a puzzle," which hadn't even occurred to me. I have given plenty of them away, but the fact that DS8 thought it would make a good birthday present for one of his friends was gratifying. I frequently find myself wishing I was woodworking (making dust) instead of doing whatever is I happen to be doing, like work.

Okay, that's probably enough. It felt scattered, but it's too many days worth of updates all rolled into one. The gist is that I continue to improve from the recent funk.

Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/04/08 11:16 PM
SD,

Glad you are doing well. You have worked your plan so well and have stayed the course longer than most. If she continues with the D, you can leave knowing that you did everything humanly possible. It will allow you the freedom to continue your life with no burdens attached or demons to deal with. Unlike the SCQ. When she wakes up, which she will someday, she'll have a lot to resolve.

I admire your strength. You're a good person SD. Unfortunately you won't be there when she realizes it. What a pity.

I envy you having a beach to walk on. Very cool....
Guy,

Have you considered dropping all the letters to SCQ from this point on?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/05/08 07:19 PM
Thanks, CL.

I find myself wishing I no longer wanted reconciliation. Or thinking about wishing for that.

Tuesday night, I took DS8 to the baseball game while DD5 stayed with the SCQ (it was the SCQ's night). Then last night, I took both kids. As I was picking up DD4 from day care yesterday, I was commenting that it was good to have a game with just DS8 (given that DD5 really doesn't care about the game), and my provider said "Oh, yes, DD4 was really excited about having a girls night" but then DD4 said "yeah, til POSOM ruined it."

Trigger! So driving back from the game, it was all going through my head again. "Can't you see that your kids don't want this? Can't you see what a waste all of this is? Do you realize what a lousy mother you've become?"

Then this morning, DD4 asked me whether there were going to be any more fires (thinking about the wildfires we had here last year). I said that I hoped not, and she said "Good, I won't have to go back to POSOM's house again." Sigh.

I think I've done an excellent job about not probing for information about what goes on with POSOM being around (because it is triggering and I really don't want to know). DS8 is sensitive to this--he knows that it makes me upset--so he doesn't bring it up. But then it just becomes the thing that we don't talk about. How is that healthy? I mean, I'm sure that's how it works over at the SCQ's place--um, yeah, I'm still married to your father, but we just won't talk about it. All that does is foster the kinds of communication skills that brought us where we are today, and I really really don't want that for my children.

It's been written elsewhere, but it's not so much the SCQ that I miss, it's the idea of an intact family. We could still be good together, but there are aspects to companionship I would enjoy that the SCQ just can't do; traits she just doesn't posess. On top of the massive amount of damage she did to me personally.

I can't fix it. But because it's about me and mine, I want to fix it. But I can't. Grr.

Accept that this is the way it is today. Breathe. Now you can enjoy today.

Quote
It's been written elsewhere, but it's not so much the SCQ that I miss, it's the idea of an intact family

I know that I have posted this before. I would be lieing if I said I didn't STILL think about this, but it's an IDEAL, not the real thing. The real thing is PWC sleeping on the couch and me still feeling like I'm living alone, massive amounts of cake consumed and damage that is nearly insurmountable.

As for your kids, as long as you leave the door open to them to talk about how this affects them you are doing what you can.

All right, sdguy. I think I told you once before.

KNOCK IT OFF!!!!


wink

I hear ya, though, sdguy. Your little booger can't help but be a little bit of a trigger when she says things like that.

However, be glad she isn't going on and on about how GREAT he is. He RUINS things and she DREADS going to his house during a fire.

On the other hand, didn't you hear not too long ago "I wish it was a Daddy day"

She isn't buying the daddy stand-in anymore than you are.

Quote
I know that I have posted this before. I would be lieing if I said I didn't STILL think about this, but it's an IDEAL, not the real thing. The real thing is PWC sleeping on the couch and me still feeling like I'm living alone, massive amounts of cake consumed and damage that is nearly insurmountable.

I'm guilty of this, too. Still. But SL is right - it's the IDEAL not the REALITY. It's our own FANTASY of who we wished they were.

Hang in there and breath, sdguy. Better days are comin'.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/05/08 10:27 PM
Quote
Have you considered dropping all the letters to SCQ from this point on?

I guess. I don't think that it's where the funk came from, though. I almost think the letters give me an outlet for that whole 'do something' urge and are thus both positive and negative.

Here's the text of the last one I sent. It was in response to the SCQ asking me if I wanted to split time at the school open house in case I didn't want to be in the same space.
Quote
"I do want to be in the same space. I want us to be a family again so that we can share the joy of watching DS8 and DD4 grow. So that you and I can celebrate and discuss their successes and failures in ways that no one else will ever be able to appreciate. So that DS8 and DD4 can grow up taking normal family vacations and celebrating their holidays the way that you and I got to. So that DS8 and DD4 can spend All of their time with their parents under one roof.

It is not too late. Yes, it would take time and work, but I know that we can rediscover our love for one another. I have learned how to do it, and I desperately want to share it with you. I believe that to make the attempt would be the absolute best thing we could ever do for DS8 and DD4 . Yes, I believe we should make the attempt for the sake of the children, but I would not stay together in a loveless marriage for the sake of the children.

We wouldn't have to worry about this, however. I know that we can rediscover our love and will find that it is stronger than anything we have ever experienced because it is built on the foundation we made fifteen years ago as well as our love for DS8 and DD4. It is what I want with all my heart. I know that we can put the past behind us and do this.

But not while you are seeing another man, so if that continues to be your choice, then we can swap DS8 at 7 on Thursday.

That was almost three weeks ago. She sent me what appeared to be a response asking about the status of the loan (which was a bit triggering), but I see now that her email actually came in before my email went out. Not that it makes a huge difference.

I don't know. I'm still trying to make it to the end still wanting reconciliation. I feel pretty good today. And on the whole I'm WAY better than I was a year ago. No comparison. So even when it's bad, it's not like it was before.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/05/08 10:43 PM
Quote
And on the whole I'm WAY better than I was a year ago. No comparison.

Me too!

Oh, and if you do give up on reconciliation, let me know and I will write your emails.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/05/08 10:48 PM
Quote
However, be glad she isn't going on and on about how GREAT he is. He RUINS things and she DREADS going to his house during a fire.

On the other hand, didn't you hear not too long ago "I wish it was a Daddy day"

I got it again at the game on Monday. That's 3 for the last 3 on those occasions (with the SCQ but sees me). Sure, it could be a lot worse, and I guess I could get a "Ha ha, she likes me better than you" boost from it, but that whole empathy thing gets in the way. It screams "it's not supposed to be this way," which is closely followed by "it doesn't have to be this way," which makes my shoulders long for my ears.

Quote
She isn't buying the daddy stand-in anymore than you are.

You know, I don't think the SCQ is playing him up as a daddy stand-in. The SCQ is aware and sensitive to the fact that I am their father. I heard one time very early on about POSOM playing chess with DS8 but have heard nothing since about it, or about any kind of interaction. Nothing about playing catch or football--whenever I hear about anything, it is with the SCQ.

POSOM's wife has told me that he has never been much interested in being a parent. That he wanted her to get an abortion rather than have the second child.

I have also heard that they are not going to move in together. POSOM bought OMW out of their house, which is twenty-something miles away from where I live, but it's important to the SCQ to stay close to the school (from my MIL) and she has refused to move in with him (from POSOM's wife).

So what's the point? To live with this kind of stupid back-and-forth juggling kids situation? I guess so. Dangerous to try to figure out what's going on inside a wayward's head. Madness lies that way.

I'm better than I sound. Lots of stuff I'm venting out, and stuff that I already know, or know better than, or the like.

Gotta post more often.

Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/05/08 10:50 PM
Quote
but that whole empathy thing gets in the way

I guess I got over that.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/05/08 10:50 PM
Quote
Oh, and if you do give up on reconciliation, let me know and I will write your emails.

Heh. We'll have to work together on that. I'm pretty good at wielding a scalpel with language. You would take it and make it riotously funny.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/05/08 11:30 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
[quote]


I have also heard that they are not going to move in together. POSOM bought OMW out of their house, which is twenty-something miles away from where I live, but it's important to the SCQ to stay close to the school (from my MIL) and she has refused to move in with him (from POSOM's wife).

SD,

I'm confused. I thought that they already did live together. No?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/05/08 11:43 PM
No. They each have their own place. She rents a condo, and POSOM recently bought out his wife. He had been living in an apartment for, what, two years now? I don't know whether or not he's moved back into the house.
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Quote
Oh, and if you do give up on reconciliation, let me know and I will write your emails.

Heh. We'll have to work together on that. I'm pretty good at wielding a scalpel with language. You would take it and make it riotously funny.

Hey!, I'm The riot!

Only the Amigos and possibly Cubs fans get that one

I guess I was under the impression that POSOM and SCQ were living together, too. It is interesting that she is not planning on moving in with him. Or so they are telling people.

Probably why Jennifer has your plan tweaked a little bit.

Of course, it's hard to tell what is in the actual mind of the wayward, like you said. She may just be waiting for the "appearance" of the relationship to be more acceptable.

Your letter was so touching. Any woman in her right mind would be absolutely thrilled to get a letter like that.

You're doing fine. Keep venting and updating - it will help keep the shoulders where they belong.

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/06/08 03:25 PM
Quote
Hey!, I'm The riot!

Like all those years ago when the marketing genius for the Cleveland Indians decided to combine baseball bat giveaway night with nickel beer night. Who could have foreseen a problem with that?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/06/08 04:18 PM
Quote
Hey!, I'm The riot!

I'm going to have to out you to my mom, BC. She's a big Riot fan.

Quote
Of course, it's hard to tell what is in the actual mind of the wayward, like you said. She may just be waiting for the "appearance" of the relationship to be more acceptable.

I think about this one, too, but if this were the case, wouldn't they be doing all they could to advance the divorce? It's been dragging on forever. Even now, when the finish line is within sight, it's not the MSA she's asking about, it's whether I've started the loan process.

Isn't that weird?
Quote
I think about this one, too, but if this were the case, wouldn't they be doing all they could to advance the divorce? It's been dragging on forever.

I would think so.

Unless she is unsure of her actions. Maybe she is using POSOM as an excuse now to leave the M because she really doesn't see the way back to it.

She doesn't want to move forward with him.....but either doesn't want to or just can't see a way back with you.

I feel that way, as a BS. WH could walk away from Bab's right now and want to reconcile and I just don't think I would do it.

The phrase "too much has happened" is not necessarily untrue. It can be a HUGE roadblock in a person's mind. Which, really, is the reason for Plan B, I think. If you don't know too much has happened, you don't have to face it or deal with it.

She may just really be unwilling to do the work it would take for reconcilation. She may not want to move forward with POSOM and all the work THAT would take, but coming back to you would take work, too.

Maybe she just wants the easy way.

Unfortunately, there isn't one. ANY good relationship takes a certain amount of work.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/06/08 05:13 PM
Quote
She doesn't want to move forward with him.....but either doesn't want to or just can't see a way back with you.

And I think this (along with the SCQ's passivity) is where Jennifer's change in strategy comes in. Make sure that she knows the door is open.

What still makes the most sense to me is that she is completely the follower and under his spell. POSOM may well be satisfied the way things are. He has his house where his kids live and a playmate to help him take care of them, and he has another place to stay closer to his work for when he doesn't have his kids. And I could see it taking a LONG time for the SCQ to realize that she's not getting what she wants and even longer for her to do anything about it.

The scary parts about this are 1) the kids get shafted all along the way, and 2) she seems more interested in getting the money than in ending the marriage. But there's really nothing I can do about that.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/06/08 05:36 PM
Quote
But there's really nothing I can do about that.

That's where another Cleveland Indian bat night/nickel beer night could work out great!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/06/08 06:00 PM
How about shovel night?
BWAAAAAAAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAA---OMG thank you thank you--I missed the comic relief
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/07/08 11:49 AM

Quote
Quote:But there's really nothing I can do about that.

Yep,,,,but so much easier said than done, eh?

Quote
That's where another Cleveland Indian bat night/nickel beer night could work out great!

I have a feeling it would be a SOLD OUT crowd!!

Quote
How about shovel night?

We could have both and switch from bats to shovels every other inning!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/10/08 05:53 PM
Hey, I got Bug-Bombed!

Update: It was to be the SCQ's long weekend and during it, DS8 had his last baseball games. There were games Friday night and again on Saturday morning because it was the tournament (they finished second). The SCQ had the kids for both games, which meant that she was at the games, too.

Like the previous ones, as soon as DD4 realized I was there, she came over to sit with me. She flits around, but I'll guess that she spent 50% of her time with me, 40% of her time with other kids, and maybe 10% of her time with the SCQ. She talked to other moms more than she did the SCQ. The SCQ would be sitting on a towel off by herself. It was noticed by one of the moms I am friendly with. I looked over at the SCQ from time to time and saw her texting numerous times. Very frustrating, so I'm glad the season is over.

The closing ceremonies and team party for the league were also to be held on Saturday, and on Thursday, the SCQ had asked me if I wanted to take him. I said not especially, but if he wanted me to, then I would. Friday night I got an email that DS8 wanted me to take him and further that he had asked if he could spend the night with me.

"Of course," says me, so I wound up with an extra day with DS8. I'm suspicious now that the SCQ planted the idea so that she and DD4 could have a sleepover at POSOM's, but this is just speculation.

And I should really let it go (posting it out will help me do that, I think), because I had a great time with DS8, so what the hell.

Still having some occasions where the anger seeps into my consciousness--where I start phrasing the FU to inflict maximum damage, but they don't seem to last long. The SCQ has been invading my dreams lately, and so I have been waking up with It. I wish It would go away.
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/10/08 06:13 PM
I don't know if you've gone through it yet, but the anger stage is very, very intense.

It's a lot more intense than mere moments of anger. At least it was for me.

Consider getting an IC. They can help you process your anger and understand it in a way you may not be able to right now.
SD has been IC'd, AD'd, and BR'd. Big D is a SOB!!
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/10/08 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by BetrayedCajun
SD has been IC'd, AD'd, and BR'd. Big D is a SOB!!

Excuse me, sir. Seeing as how the V.P. is such a V.I.P., shouldn't we keep the P.C. on the Q.T.? 'Cause if it leaks to the V.C. he could end up M.I.A., and then we'd all be put out in K.P.
Ummm....can I have a little of whatever everyone is smoking around here today.

Maybe we have all just finally lost what was left of our minds.

Fox cool
Quote
Maybe we have all just finally lost what was left of our minds.

Speak for yourself, toots . my mind was lost looooong ago in a galaxy far far away, while I was alien hunting. smirk
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/10/08 09:35 PM
Quote
I don't know if you've gone through it yet, but the anger stage is very, very intense.

Quote
SD has been IC'd, AD'd, and BR'd.

Well put.

I know the anger is there, lurking. Every now and then I vent bits of it off. I feel like I've analyzed it from every direction I possibly could, and I'm just tired of it.

I'm beginning to think it took me 15 years to figure out that the SCQ was just too shallow a person for me. I doubt that she can ever participate in the kind of recovery I would want, let alone be as good a match as others out there.

My lawyer received a letter from her lawyer containing the basis for a MSA (marital separation agreement)--basically what the SCQ and I already agreed to. It feels like relief in the offing.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/10/08 09:43 PM
Quote
My lawyer received a letter from her lawyer containing the basis for a MSA (marital separation agreement)--basically what the SCQ and I already agreed to. It feels like relief in the offing.

So what's left?

I am amazed at how long the process is in some other places.

In Colorado, you just walk to the edge of Divorce Cliff and jump. In a few weeks your divorced.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/10/08 10:41 PM
I think that's it. I'm guessing that once the MSA is approved by a judge, we're divorced. When my lawyer calls back to discuss the letter, I'll ask.

The case has dragged because no one has been pushing it. We could have been done a year ago. According to Pittman, this is where lots of Affair Divorces die.
Posted By: believer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/10/08 10:54 PM
After the divorce was filed, ex and I signed our MSA. Then the divorce was final 6 months after it was filed.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/11/08 12:25 PM
SD,

Just had to tell you that Drac sits by himself at DD's games, too. AND he is on the phone or the Blackberry the entire time.
AND it is maddening for me as well. Wish it wasn't,,,,,,,,,

I know it's hard to let go of the Sat night thing - we both know that something was up that made it to the SCQ's 'advantage' to have him with you. Just remember, no matter what she was up to, YOU still got the best end of that deal. It just sucks feeling like you've been used.

So, about the Anger thing. I'm with ya! My phrase for today is "It's better to be p*ssed OFF, than p*ssed ON!" ha!

Chin up!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/11/08 07:05 PM
Thanks, Bugsy.

Pretty typical wayward behavior then. It still amazes me how much they give up and how long they can last in this state. Such a waste.

Got an email from the SCQ last night.

DD4's birthday is June 15th. We'll be on vacation in a beach house on the Outer Banks with lots of family on that day, which will be good. I thought I would have a party for her here in San Diego as well and decided to do a party at one of the places full of inflatable jumpers and slides and stuff. DS8 had a great time at his party there, and DD4 has always had a blast at these parties, and DD4 doesn't have all that many things that are just about her.

I talked with my day-care provider to consult about times for the party, and I guess the party came up when the SCQ was picking the kids up yesterday from daycare. Then last night, I got this email:

Quote
DD4 mentioned that you were planning a Pump It Up party. If you are having trouble finding a day or time that works with your kid schedule it would be ok with me if you had to do it on one of my days if it might make it more convenient for people to come. Of course I wouldn't have to be there. Just offering.

I'm not sure how to read it. I think she is probably just being nice, but the twitchy BS in me gets all reactive. It wants to respond "Nice gesture. Say, I have an idea. If you want to do something nice for our kids, why don't you stop committing adultery?"

I suspect that normal people will cringe at that response. I also suspect that the BS's out there will understand it completely. No, I didn't send it.

Quote
DD4 mentioned that you were planning a Pump It Up party. If you are having trouble finding a day or time that works with your kid schedule it would be ok with me if you had to do it on one of my days if it might make it more convenient for people to come. Of course I wouldn't have to be there. Just offering.

My answer would be simple

"No, Thanks."

You can figure something out without involving SCQ at all. The party may not take place real close to her birthday, but it will still take place, and that's what matters most.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/12/08 06:23 PM
No response to it.

or.....

Asked her to come the night before and blow up all the inflatables the old fashioned way.

or......

No response to it.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/12/08 08:40 PM
I didn't respond. Last night I got another email asking me, basically, if I could keep the kids for a week at the beginning of July. I said yes, of course, because it means I will get them for July 4th, and we have a big block party that they like going to.

The sobering part is that she gives up another week with her kids so easily. As it is, I've had them since yesterday and will have them through next Sunday. Then she'll have three days with them and not see them for another 9 or 10 days.

It's just sickening how the priorities change and can stay changed for so long.

And it almost felt like something clicked when I read it. Another notch on the Done-o-meter, I guess. Dunometer? I'm still going to maintain that I don't want divorce until the end, but it's just for formality at this point. There is zero hope behind it. I still have trouble believing that she could be this far gone for this long.

The kids and I leave on vacation tomorrow (week in the beach house on the Outer Banks with family). Very much looking forward to it.
Unfortunately, the kids (mine, at least) seem to have a done-o-meter, too.

WH gave up days often enough, DD14 now has given up ALL her days with him. She doesn't even want to go there for Father's Day.

I could accept some of the crap he dealt me and still hang on to some love for him, when he started behaving this way with DDs, my done-a-meter kicked up a few notches.

Hope you have a great time on vacation. You've come so far since the last time you were there.

Fox
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/12/08 11:33 PM

SD,

Quote
It's just sickening how the priorities change and can stay changed for so long.

And it almost felt like something clicked when I read it. Another notch on the Done-o-meter, I guess.

Yep,,,,,,just when we think nothing else really could make that meter register anything different, the WS pings the needle another notch.

BTW, just where do you plug in the Done-o-meter? Sometimes it seems connected to my brain. Other times it's connected to my heart. And other times,,,, well let's not go there! smile

Quote
The kids and I leave on vacation tomorrow (week in the beach house on the Outer Banks with family). Very much looking forward to it.

And well you should be looking forward to it! What's not to love about that kind of week? And, Fox has an excellent point about being better this time around.

Get yourself some alone beach time when you need it,,,,,,,,,but for the most part, enjoy the kids. You deserve it!
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/12/08 11:36 PM
Man oh man that 'done-o-meter' does twitch when the kids are involved dunnit?

Was wondering what that clicking sound was last week, and I think it ratcheted pretty close to the limit for me.

I totally feel the whole 'formality' of it all now as well. Ugh.. I still wonder from time to time just who WW really is, and how the heck I was fooled for so long.

Another click on the done-o-meter I suppose.. I'm not a big fan of the product not matching the advertising.

Originally Posted by Jamesus
Another click on the done-o-meter I suppose.. I'm not a big fan of the product not matching the advertising.
Jesus, I hear you on that one!

I'm ending up with OS this Father's day too and I have him this week BUT "it's because of surgery!"

I have no compassion for this man...is that sad? That I can't feel sorry for him?
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/13/08 11:50 AM
Sad that you can't feel sorry for him?

Rin.. take a look around you. See what your life has become. Everything that is better in your life right now is because YOU worked hard for it and you've done it the right way. You're the one that can look yourself in the mirror and be comfortable with the choices you've made.

I'm pretty much of the opinion right now, that as much as I still care about WW.. whatever trials or troubles she's going through right now are hers to deal with alone. It's like I teach my kids.. you made the mess, you clean it up (some obvious exceptions here.. DS is only 4 afterall.. but to his credit he tries). We can't be personally responsible for our spouses anymore, and they apparently don't want us to be either.

In other words, let the driver of the karma bus punch their ticket in peace. They're heaping their own problems on themselves at this point, and deserve all the 'happiness' that goes with it.

SD... sorry for the T/J
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/14/08 03:28 PM
[quote=Jamesus]
In other words, let the driver of the karma bus punch their ticket in peace. They're heaping their own problems on themselves at this point, and deserve all the 'happiness' that goes with it.



James,

You got that right. They do deserve the "happiness" that goes with it, don't they?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/27/08 05:07 PM
Update time, I guess. We're back from the vacation, which was great. The weather, the location, the company, the fellowship--all fantastic. The kids had a terrific time with cousins and grandparents and everything. DS8 spent most of the time with his favorite cousin, while DD5 got lots of time with the "big girls," aged 11, 13, 14, 16, and 18, who all think DD5 is adorable.

During the vacation, the SCQ called the kids once, on DD5's birthday. Other than that, she did not call. I asked the kids a couple of times if they wanted to call her and got either "no" or "later" in return.

The kids were with her for a couple of days and then came back to me, and now I have them until the 6th of July, which is great but draining. I got them from the SCQ directly on Wednesday, when she brought them straight from swimming lessons to my work. The first thing DD5 told me was "Mommy's going on vacation by herself." DS8 added that she was going with POSOM, of course, and that they are going to Wisconsin to visit/meet with friends.

Since the SCQ has no friends in Wisconsin, I'm still assuming that she is completely following POSOM's lead. I could probably confirm this--OMW left me a message Wednesday night asking me if I wanted to talk, but I haven't returned the call. I don't really want to talk to her.

I haven't checked in with my lawyer, but he should have told the SCQ's lawyer that we all have an understanding and that they can go ahead and put the MSA together. I'm ready to be divorced.

I'm feeling pretty good. No post-vacation let-down this year. Just acceptance. The urges to make the SCQ see what she's doing are fewer and farther between. Whatever.

I'm doing a belated birthday party for the SCQ tonight (not that she didn't get spoiled enough on her real birthday on vacation). Gotta make cupcakes.

EDIT: Eek! No, the party is for DD5!
Guy Smiley! Welcome home!

Thanks for the update. I'm glad you had a good time - much different than last year.

You're finding your rythm, that's good.

You can bet your sweet bippy that SCQ will not have the peace of mind that you do on your vacation. She is going to try to keep someone else happy - this isn't a vacation for HER.

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I'm ready to be divorced.

Me too, sdguy, me too. That quiet acceptance will do more healing than you can imagine.

I'm on pins and needles waiting for the decision from our judge. We FINALLY made it to court on Wednesday.

My heart did not ache for WH one bit. He choked up a couple of times - and I did not choke up FOR him, like I've always done.

I think it was good that it took so long for us to get to court. I'm ready - heart, mind, and soul. I don't think I could have done it any sooner than it was done.

I've found that quiet acceptance, too, and it is such a relief.

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The urges to make the SCQ see what she's doing are fewer and farther between. Whatever.

You ought to name your thread something like "giving up....letting go....whatever" smile

I am truly there (probably more so then when I named my thread that). Life is waiting to hand you the sweeter apples.

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I'm doing a belated birthday party for the SCQ tonight (not that she didn't get spoiled enough on her real birthday on vacation). Gotta make cupcakes.

Ummmmm.....I'm hoping this was a typo. If you make cupcakes for SCQ, I will come down there and PERSONALLY hit you with a 2x4.

Fox
Quote
Ummmmm.....I'm hoping this was a typo. If you make cupcakes for SCQ, I will come down there and PERSONALLY hit you with a 2x4.

...or her newly bestowed GOLDEN SHOVEL. laugh

Guys, I, too, am ready to be divorced. It didn't take me long to get there this time out. It only took three years and miles of damamge, but I'm there. Plan B has done it's job. I see very clearly. It's going to be some time now before it can happen, since there is a one year waiting period. That's okay, though. I'm not bristling to move on with someone else. PWC is not the man for me now. He doesn't 'get' it, and I cannot be with someone who doesn't.

I'm counting my blessings, your friendships being among them.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/27/08 06:51 PM
Um, yeah. Thanks for the editing. No parties for the SCQ. No cupcakes. God only knows what I would put in them.

When I was trying to decide how I felt about her the other day, I kept coming back to "I kind of wish that she didn't exist." I was reminded (by LilSis, actually) that she's the only mother my kids will ever have, and that they love her, and would it really be good for me to wish that away from them?

Which took me to a different place. I got a TM from the SCQ the other day asking me a simple but urgent question about her car (did I know where the keys to the wheel locks were). I responded no, but offered a suggestion.

I can imagine a day where I am friendly with her. Being angry and working to avoid contact takes too much energy. If I were to try to do it now, however, I would feel the need to tell her what I think. It's like "I can't be nice to you until after I've unloaded some of the things I've been holding back." My IC asked me whether those things could be worked out by posting or writing them out. To some extent they can.

I intend to keep up the Plan B for the foreseeable future. And I am Done, at least for now. I won't rule anything out for the future, but I'm going to start looking around once the ink is dry. My IC agrees with me that the affair will end eventually but thinks that I won't be interested in the SCQ if and when she pulls her head out. She thinks I will find someone better suited for me. Maybe someone who gets Python, or can keep up with me intellectually, or can make me laugh.

Quote
He doesn't 'get' it, and I cannot be with someone who doesn't.

I'm no longer interested in doing this, either. Or at least, taking the chance that she will get it at some point in the future. I would have to see a whole lot more up front than I think she is capable of.

And yes, I do communicate with LilSis via email from time to time. I don't really talk about it because it's frowned on by some around here, but she's doing really well. I'll try to get her to post an update (and pass along everyone's concern).
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/27/08 07:16 PM
Quote
but offered a suggestion.

Of where to put them when she finds them?
I'm not nearly as angry as I once was, especially right after PWC left this last time. I've let a lot of it go. The peace I had been after for so long has set in. It's a good thing. The prospect of finding someone well suited for me gets me a little excited. The LOOKING for them does not. I think I'll just let things happen, keep my eyes peeled. Who knows? Don't they say good things come to those who wait?

I have no problems with you emailing Sis. Of course, I'm biased, since I have email contact with the Killer Bee's pretty regularly. I actually wish I had gotten more of the Bee's email addy's. Meh. If I lived anywhere NEAR the drones, I can see how it has the possibility of becoming a problem. I made a decision to work on my marriage, and that is what I did.

Anyway, 'nough said.

Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/27/08 08:03 PM
Quote
Don't they say good things come to those who wait?

Lincoln said, "Good things may come to those who wait, but only what's left behind by those who hustle."

I don't think he was talking about relationships though. More like massive military campaigns with the survival of the Union in the balance. He probably would agree with you on relationships. What's the hurry?
I find it interesting that I am NOT angry. I pity WH.

He did what he did because he is flawed. I KNOW he didn't hurt me with the intention of hurting me. Like, "watch this, this will about kill her."

I, really, was an afterthought.

He is in for a world of heartache. No matter what the judge decides. His DDs get to make the decision on their relationships with him. No one can FORCE them to love him or respect him.

WH lost the most precious things in the world. It's a shame he doesn't see it yet.

There are some things he said in court on Wednesday that showed me just how low he is emotionally. If DD14 knew that he used her grades against me (she has ALWAYS struggled) she would be pretty angry.

He also said that he "suspected" that I influenced her opinion of him. He said that she did not tell him this, though.

He knows better......it's just the justifcations hanging on to help him survive.

I will survive this much better than he will. He has a long way to fall.

My anger has left the building.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/27/08 11:44 PM
Didn't I swear off making cupcakes after last year? What was I thinking?

Fox, almost all of what you posted resonates with me. I've been an afterthought--an inconvenience--for something like three years now. SO MUCH of my anger has dissipated. But not all.

We've all said it before, but I remain grateful that I am the betrayed spouse rather than the wayward one. The bottom is lurking out there and will hit our wayward spouses like a freight train one of these days.

And like you said on your thread, I really appreciate the support I've gotten from this place and my friends here. I wish we didn't have the reason to know one another, but I'm glad that we do.
We're starting to sound like Bartles and Janes

Maybe one day we can all sit around and salute them grin
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/28/08 01:30 PM


Quote
We are sounding like Bartels and James. Maybe one day we can all sit around and salute them

As long as you aren't talking about a HEE HAW kind of SAAL-UTE,,,,,,,,I'm in. I gave up popping out of corn fields several years ago. I prefer the comfort of a nice bar stool, or at minimum, a comfortable lawn chair!

Welcome Back, SD!

Glad vaca was so good for all of your family!

Sounds like the Done-O-Meter is almost pegged to the top for you, and I am not surprised. However, don't get used to it staying there all of the time,,,,,,,,,I have a feeling you may find some moments yet where it eases back to the 3/4 mark or even lower.

The difference between now and just a few weeks ago is your ability to recognize it but not give it much attention. You, like so many of us, have found your way in living life without wearing the Done-O-Meter on our arms like a watch. Looking at it every 5 seconds to see if you've MADE it to the Finally Done reading.

These are aren't really 'new' feelings, but rather ones that are more peaceful and are now sustained for long periods of time. And they are feelings that we Like and Accept as part of our new lives.

Hope you have a great weekend!

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/30/08 10:07 PM
It was a good weekend. We had a really good time at DD5's party Friday night. 8 or 9 kids, which seemed like just the right amount, and they all ran and jumped around until they were exhausted. The cupcakes (which DD5 helped me with) received compliments.

Saturday the kids suffered through me visiting with some friends who were in town for a wedding, and then on Sunday we went to see WALL-E, which we all enjoyed. Now I have the kids for the next week and will try to keep things fun. Single parenting ain't easy, though.

Quote
Sounds like the Done-O-Meter is almost pegged to the top for you, and I am not surprised. However, don't get used to it staying there all of the time,,,,,,,,,I have a feeling you may find some moments yet where it eases back to the 3/4 mark or even lower.

I'm beginning to think that there are two meters, the DONE For Now meter and the DONE FOREVER meter.

Forever is a long time, so I'm not making any statements about that. The SCQ has never tried to hurt me and is the mother of my children, for whom I would do just about anything. Who knows what will happen.

But my Done For Now meter is finally pegged. It's not what I want, but I no longer have any energy or interest in fighting it: it's plain that the SCQ is very far gone. I think this is the place BR wanted me to get to. I think I would have been here sooner but for Jennifer keeping me going with the letter-writing.

I think the SCQ is more concerned about getting money than about finalizing the divorce, because the refinance is what she asks about in her emails. I kind of assume it is POSOM pressuring her and shudder to think what she will do with the money, so I try not to think about it.

But I'm ready to be divorced. I find myself with an urge to reach out and punch the hornet's nest just to keep things moving along. Maybe an email like this:

"Just for clarity, are you more concerned about finalizing the divorce or getting your hands on the money from the house? I still think that divorce is the wrong thing for us, but we might as well get it over with so that at least our kids won't have to continue watching you sleep with one man while being married to another."

Or is that too harsh?
Quote
Or is that too harsh?

Ummmm.....I dunno. I'm still stuck on this:

Quote
The SCQ has never tried to hurt me


Fox
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 06/30/08 10:23 PM
If you are intent on sending an email of that sort, just say something like "Wow, you sure are concerned about hurrying this along, is something wrong?"

On a completely unrelated note--what's with the quoting of movies for edit reasons? Is this a new trend? laugh Sorry, I was just curious.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/01/08 02:34 AM
Quote
I'm still stuck on this

Yeah, I thought that might raise some eyebrows. There are a few exceptions, but for the most part I simply became an inconvenience about three years ago when she checked into Hotel Infidelity. I don't think she has ever wanted to hurt me, and I think she has tried to spare me pain where she could. She has respected Plan B better than most I've seen on here. She never tried to get more than 50% custody of the kids. She could have gotten more money from me if she wanted to, but I think she wanted to be fair. I think she just wanted to get away.

Upon reflection, the exceptions, where she was trying to hurt me, came when I threatened POSOM somehow. The time I went into the place where she used to work and POSOM still did, or when I was talking with his wife. Those were the times that she lashed out at me, and I think it was because he whipped her into a frenzy.

Not that it's much of a redemption. To be so weak and shallow that one could be manipulated this effectively for this long is not exactly any kind of selling point.

I could be wrong, of course. It's possible that she's just a [censored] and concealed it for 13 years, but I don't really think so. Nor does anyone who knows her.

Doesn't matter.

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what's with the quoting of movies for edit reasons?

Thanks for stopping by. It came when they implemented the new board. You didn't used to be able to do it, so it was something new. All of a sudden you could add a little bit to the bottom of your post--like a footnote, in smaller font. It was an opportunity for humor for a few of us who think things like the opening credits for Monty Python and the Holy Grail are funny. Then we started using movie quotes. Sometimes I try to match up the quote with my mood. Not sure if there's a method to Chrisner's madness.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/01/08 03:22 AM
SD,

Sorry my friend, but I am going to have to call you out. I don't think the Done-O-Meter is truly pegged out. Methinks thou doest protest too much.


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"Just for clarity, are you more concerned about finalizing the divorce or getting your hands on the money from the house? I still think that divorce is the wrong thing for us, but we might as well get it over with so that at least our kids won't have to continue watching you sleep with one man while being married to another."

I DO think your feelings are in the process of changing, but this doesn't say DONE to me,,, it says you are finally ANGRY. And you have every right to be angry.

I am not 'done' completely in that I acknowledge I still have safely stored way love for Drac, but I have (I think) let go. Which is what I think BR has coached you towards. I no longer feel that urge to write those things. Yes,,, they cross my mind - but I don't even really feel the 'urge' to bother putting them in writing. They will do no good.

OR

Perhaps for YOU,,, the true test of the Done o Meter being pegged IS that you are finally able to express the anger.

Perhaps it's a male vs female perspective.

Either way, things have changed for you. How do YOU really feel about those changes?

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/01/08 06:29 PM
Thanks for the thoughts, Bugs. The anger has always been there and is still around if I look for it. Or open the door wide enough. Bitterness is a better word for it, maybe.

Today I'm tired, because being a single parent is exhausting. DD5 doesn't want to wake up, doesn't want to wear that dress, doesn't want to pick out something else, doesn't want to go to day care. Making lunches, doing laundry, putting away everything. All stuff that can be managed, but you have to actually manage it.

I don't usually remember my dreams, but last night I had one where the setting seemed to be current except that the SCQ and I were in the same place for some reason. She came up behind me and whispered that she loved me and had known that she has for the past several months. In my dream, tears came to my eyes. Then I had to go through a couple of layers of consciousness figuring out that it was a dream. I'd just as soon not remembered the dream. Not really how I wanted to start the day.

I guess I don't know where I am in the whole process, but it really doesn't matter. What matters is today--the kids' swimming lessons this afternoon, work, my yoga class in a half hour, maybe going to the Zoo this evening.
I don't know, Guy, it does sound like the DONEOMETER is in the red. That in no way means you won't still FEEL things here and there, or even wish they could be different. For me it means moving on, not even considering what may come in the future, but knowing that my central focus is not this madness anymore.

Que cera cera.
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"Just for clarity, are you more concerned about finalizing the divorce or getting your hands on the money from the house? I still think that divorce is the wrong thing for us, but we might as well get it over with so that at least our kids won't have to continue watching you sleep with one man while being married to another."

Still trying to get a taste of the hair of the gerbil, eh?

To me, this says you are still waiting for her to REALIZE what an idiot she is for continuing this.

I get it. I'm waiting for it from WH, too. Not holding my breath, but still would like it to come.

That doesn't mean my Done-o-Meter hasn't buried itself.


Those dreams take you back a bit, don't they? You're still grieving your losses. You'll revisit the stages here and there.

The fact that we have to figure out how to be single parents doesn't help either. You can do it, sdguy. You HAVE been doing it.

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/01/08 07:15 PM
SL's channeling Doris Day!

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Still trying to get a taste of the hair of the gerbil, eh?

Not much to barbeque in them thar.
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To me, this says you are still waiting for her to REALIZE what an idiot she is for continuing this.

Yup, I didn't know how to communicate this this morning, but I have come to realize that he doesn't realize, nor may he ever. He also may not agree that he is an idiot for continuing this. He may believe that love just dies, OH WELL, and so you move on--Kicking the crap out of me while he did it doesn't seem to have phased him.

Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/01/08 07:27 PM
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You'll revisit the stages here and there.

Done or not!
True dat, chris!
Um, yeah, what he said
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Today I'm tired, because being a single parent is exhausting. DD5 doesn't want to wake up, doesn't want to wear that dress, doesn't want to pick out something else, doesn't want to go to day care. Making lunches, doing laundry, putting away everything. All stuff that can be managed, but you have to actually manage it.

You're not alone in this either, sdguy. It IS exhausting.

Your kiddos will be so grateful for it one day. You are truly a DAD.

DDs still wear me out sometimes. There's always SOME issue that needs to be addressed.

That's one of the things I miss - the backup of the other parent. Just the presence of a united front cuts down on boundary pushing by a teenager.

Keep on keeping on. It'll be worth it in the end.

Fox

I'm exhausted reading what he's doing, knowing that I'm doing the same. I gotta tell ya, in some aspects, having my sis around has been good. She does the dishes, helps me cook and clean, does laundry, etc. Of course, she is adding to the mess, the laundry and so on. It's just good to come home to a clean kitchen some days.

It IS exhausting. You will learn to take FULL advantage of the time that your kids are with their mom.
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You will learn to take FULL advantage of the time that your kids are with their mom.

I'm feeling some guilt over this in my situation. With DD14 NOT going to WH's anymore. I have NO time for me.

I feel like I'm always on the clock and don't have time to just do for myself.

And I'm wishing for it. Then I feel bad because I'm WISHING for DD14 to give me some space.

What kind of a mother is that?

Fox
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What kind of a mother is that?

Normal, is the kind of mother that is. Guilt is useless in this case. It's not about not loving your kids, it's about taking care of you, recharging, quieting your mind and soul, etc, to that you can get the rest of the job done.

When I was a teen, I didn't spend a lot of time with my mom. She would come home from work, cook, we'd eat, talk a little and then she would disappear into her own realm for a bit. We would spend time on the weekends together, but she was not really ON my social calendar. I relied more on my friends to fill my time.
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When I was a teen, I didn't spend a lot of time with my mom. She would come home from work, cook, we'd eat, talk a little and then she would disappear into her own realm for a bit. We would spend time on the weekends together, but she was not really ON my social calendar. I relied more on my friends to fill my time.

We live WAY out of town and DDs don't drive. They are trapped with me whether they like it or not. smile Therefore, we spend ALOT of time together.

While they have their own time with friends, etc, I am also on their social calendar (and they are on mine). Movies, riding, volleyball, basketball, hiking, Guitar Hero, Singstar, etc are things we do together for fun.

When I leave to go to the movies or dinner or something with friends, they are home alone.

So, I hardly ever do it.

I don't know how to balance it.

Especially when/if I start dating. To leave them home alone to go on a date just feels WRONG.

Sorry for the t/j, sdguy. Your thoughts just brought up some of my own.

Fox
I think my biggest struggle is that I don't want DDs to believe that they are not WELCOME in my life.

They are unwelcome in their father's life for the most part and I don't want them to have an INKLING that they aren't welcome in mine.

Fox
I get the same feelings sometimes, but then I think about my own childhood.

you know, middle of August, 100 degrees, and not allowed in the house.

how many parents kick their kids out of the house until the streetlights come on anymore. It was common practice then and I never felt unloved or neglected. I had awsome parents, but they were never up my butt and I was never up theirs.

it's a whole different world

I'm finally starting to enjoy my time without DS without feeling guilty and now that he's older he's starting to play with the kids in the neighborhood more than me.
That's part of the problem, I think.

I did feel like an outsider in my parents lives. I never wanted that for my own children.

We could always be IN the house...but my mom used to sit in her recliner, cross stiching in front of her, foot stool in front of her, end tables on both sides so you couldn't GET to her.

She was not and is not an affectionate woman. No hugs, no I love you's, no WELCOME.

You were literally kept at a distance with the furniture surrounding her.

I quite likely could be over compensating.

Fox
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how many parents kick their kids out of the house until the streetlights come on anymore.

No wonder you are now a 'gator wrestler! laugh

Guys, the thing to remember is that this is NOT a permanent assignment. Those exhausting young kids quickly grow into young adults. I know. I remember COUNTING the years until my kids would be grown. Now that they are, I long for the days when they were small, messy, loud and demanding. LOL
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/02/08 01:38 AM
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The fact that we have to figure out how to be single parents doesn't help either. You can do it, sdguy. You HAVE been doing it.

Yes, you have been doing this, and quite well, I might add!

I know I'm late to the party today, but I sooo relate to every post today. From the readings on the Done O Meter to the stresses of single parenting.

I think every one of us is doing an OUTSTANDING job on All fronts these days.

Yes, we struggle. But we acknowlege it. We seek help. We do the best we can to do the best we can. We continually strive to improve ourselves as individuals and as parents. We give support to one another.

Overall, we are some D@MN GOOD FOLKS!

and gator wrestlers! laugh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/02/08 01:45 AM
Wow, thanks for all the thoughts, everyone. I'm with you, Bugs--I think we're all doing pretty amazing jobs.

I have gotten good at taking advantage of the time without the kids. Built-in babysitter is what my IC calls it. For the most part, all I do is relax and recharge.

Bailed on the zoo today. We're all too tired.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/02/08 01:53 AM
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Bailed on the zoo today. We're all too tired

And that's All Good, too! I've realized that a VERY important part to single parenting is knowing my limitations.

It doesn't have to be go, go go. The kids seem to really enjoy simple downtime, hometime with me. Ladybugs comment about our house being "so peaceful" reminded me of that. Obviously, the HoHouse hasn't been very peaceful - more so than I ever imagined!

Enjoy the TIME. It matters not so much what you DO, just that you are together.

Get some rest!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/02/08 01:57 AM
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I've realized that a VERY important part to single parenting is knowing my limitations.

Yeah, I'm still figuring this one out. My parents are always telling me I try to do too much with the kids. They're just as happy at home tonight.

Gotta make dinner.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/06/08 04:29 AM
I just survived having my MIL visit, and I did really well.

Flashback--the SCQ is on vacation with her boyfriend, but she let me know that MIL would be in San Diego and would want to see the kids. I survived my time with them and did very well (including swimming lessons, the 4th of July block party, a trip to the Del Mar Fair, the beach, etc.).

Today my MIL called and wanted to see them today. We agreed on late afternoon. She had some stuff to do, and I took the kids to the beach. As I was getting ready, some of the hateful things to say tried to break through--some of the anger. But I was determined not to talk about that stuff.

And once she got here, we had a very pleasant visit. She talked more with me than she did the kids (she has never been all that good at interacting with the kids--FIL is much better), and we chatted about roses and FIL and the kids and stuff. It was easy.

She's the one who brought up the SCQ--how she needed some time with her to try to figure out what went wrong. I asked went wrong with what (thought maybe she meant with the marriage), and she replied "with my daughter." So we wound up talking about it. I was honest and blunt without being cruel or bitter. I told her that I think the SCQ is completely following POSOM's lead and gave the example of all the time without her kids or even calling them.

MIL didn't know that the divorce wasn't complete. I told her it's not because I've been holding it up (and that it's probably not complete because POSOM hasn't fully decided whether he wants to leave his wife or not). I told MIL that the SCQ is about to receive a big check, and that she's been more concerned about the money than the divorce. MIL knows that men in affairs lie and agrees with me that it will not end well, so she took special interest in the money part.

I told her that even now, I would still try to make it work, but since there's nothing from the other side, I have to move on. That I have been respecting my marriage vows. MIL wanted me to know that it isn't what they want, and I told her that I understood that. I told her she can call me any time, she can stay with me if she wants to avoid POSOM, she can see the kids any time. I think my MIL walked away really feeling bad for me.

I am okay, though. My neighbor is a 34-year old bachelor renting the house, and tonight his girlfriend is throwing him a birthday party. Earlier today, when MIL and I were out walking with the kids, I saw three blondes get out of a Mercedes and head into the party, and it took effort not to drool. I can hear the voices at the party now, and I'm invited--I know I would be welcome. I have the kids, though. But I'm ready to be divorced.


Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/06/08 01:39 PM
Hey SD,

Well, someone said something once that makes a lot of sense now - "you just need time to get to where he is." Done is what I think that they meant. After nothing, and I mean NOTHING, from the other side in going on 1 year now, I'm 95% done too. I think I just realized it in the last few weeks. My WS left town and I'm sure will never return.

So, I know where you are. It just takes longer for some of us I guess. And you have little ones, so I understand why you hung in there so long. I so admire you for that. You can continue on with absolutely no regrets. There is just nothing more that you could have done or can still do.

My bet is that as soon as your D is final, POSOM will return to his W and leave SQC high and dry. It will no longer be a conquest for him at that point. I think that sleeping with another man's wifey is what keeps this thing going for him. He'll return to her until he finds the next other man's wifey.

Will be interesting to see how it plays out....

Hang in there on the single parenting thing. Rest up for the teen aged years because you'll need every ounce of engergy you can muster then. But, your kids will look back someday and you'll be their hero. They will always remember this time.

Ok, so we need to come up with a name for all of us who are now fully baked and done. I can't think of one. I'll work on it.



Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/09/08 09:44 PM
Hey, thanks for stopping in, CL. Did you update your thread? Some folks were asking after you.

I didn't feel it at the time, but the weekend was more upsetting than I thought. Between talking to MIL and turning over the kids after having them for so long, the funk and angry things to tell the SCQ and shoulder tension have all been nipping at me for the past few days. Today is better.

On Doneness, as I think about it, the only thing I'm done with is this marriage. This marriage is over, and I am ready to be divorced. I still have some hope for my family, however.

I know that I do not want my kids to grow up in a broken family. I want my kids to take family vacations and celebrate family holidays the way I did. I want my kids to have the benefit of two loving parents ALL the time.

I know that the SCQ is who she is now, but this is not who she was in the past and need not be who she will be in the future. It depends what emerges if and when the affair ends.

I will not pine for this or hold out for it, but I won't close any doors either. I am Done for Now. I am not Done Forever.

Not sure whether or not that makes any sense.
It makes perfect sense. You know who you're talking to around here, don't you?

BTDT. Done it quite a few times actually.

Play the hand you are dealt. You'll be lucky enough to have a couple of Aces in the future. I'm sure of it.

Fox

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/10/08 07:26 PM
Now that school is out, DS8 is going to the same day care as DD5. He was dead-set against doing any camps or the like, so he spends his days at our provider's house with kids who are all younger than he is. He's happy with this, and our provider does a nice job of trying to keep him engaged (lots of library books and time to read).

One of my concerns with this was that the kids are not getting any break from each other (like they would during the school year). I suggested via email that we do some split-squad nights during the week. Both kids go to day care together, but we each take one home. The kids love the split-squad time, because with me I give them individual attention and make the time be about them.

The SCQ hasn't responded to that suggestion. I fully expect it is because it would mess up her schedule with POSOM--it wouldn't be convenient for her to have one kid all week long.

I got the kids back last night and asked whether or not the SCQ had talked to them about the idea. She hadn't. They liked the idea. DD5 made it clear that she wants to come home with me. I speculated that maybe the SCQ doesn't want to do it because it would mess up her time with POSOM, and they agreed.

Then DD5 asked me why I don't like POSOM. I told her because he tells lies and because he broke up two families--that he is the reason Mommy left home. DD5 then said she didn't want to talk about it anymore because it would make her cry.

Later, out of the blue, she told me that she had a good time with the SCQ and hoped she didn't go away again but that she still likes me best. It was the first time she's been that blunt about it. DS8 understands the diplomacy part of it better and keeps his cards closer to his vest.

I think I'll suggest the split-squad stuff for her nights only so that she can keep her other nights free. Maybe I can do that without letting all my disgust show.
I've wondered a bit on how to handle DDs relationship with each other and with me, too.

DD14 gets alone time with me when DD13 is at WxH for visitation. DD13 gets almost NO alone time with me.

They very seldom have alone time - just the two of them.

They actually seem to be getting along better now that DD14 is not going to WxH's for visitation.

I worry that DD13 feels left out of our lives. I sure hope she doesn't.

I make an effort to stop at the school a couple of times a week so that DD13 and I can play a game of basketball. DD14 is with us, but doesn't care much for basketball. She'll swing or be buried in her phone texting. She'll join us for "around the world" sometimes but mostly it is just DD13 and I.

While it isn't time for ONLY DD13 - she's is my focus during that time.

DD14 is done as of today with Driver's Ed and will be staying home during the day while I am at work. DD13 sometimes goes to xMIL house if her cousins are there when I am at work. I think I am going to require they BOTH stay home at least ONE day during the week. They need to maintain their relationship no matter what happens with me or with WxH.

It's really tough to balance it all. Nurturing all the relationships with their families is very important, I think.

I was a bit worried that the court would force DD14 to go to WxH's for just this reason. They don't usually like to split siblings, I hear.

She was spared, so I will do my best to create an environment that encourages a good relationship between them.

Fox

Guy,

I dunno, maybe you are complicating things . I suppose it's nice to have quality alone time with each kid, but your children also need to learn to cooperate and share, coexist. I don't think I was ever given the chance to be separate from my sister and brother. We all shared the same space, all the time. Sis and I were in daycare together, as children; I liked it for some reasons, disliked it for others. For many, it's just the way it is. They are really no worse for the wear. I had some time, here and there, alone with my mom. I just had to make the effort to make the opportunity.

I don't remember wanting to spend oodles of time with my mom once I was a teenager, either. I was more interested in friends and boys (sorry Foxy). I think you (Foxy) are creating great opportunities with the girls. It's enough.

At this point, don't bother even speculating on how this affects SCQ and POSOM. Who gives a rats [censored]? If you would like a change, make a request and take her answer for what it is. If it's something that you REALLY want, then go two to three rounds over it.
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I dunno, maybe you are complicating things .

[sarcasm] No way! shocked [/sarcams]

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I was more interested in friends and boys (sorry Foxy).

cry

True, though. I think DDs have GUILT about leaving me to go do things. We had a discussion the other day about how I LIKE when they are out having fun and being kids. It eases MY guilt about having a nice time without them, when I know they are out having fun too.

It doesn't mean I love them less or they love me less.

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I think you (Foxy) are creating great opportunities with the girls. It's enough.

I hope so. We have been having some good discussions about this lately.

Since things have been decided legally, I want to be sure to address some fears and concerns - theirs and mine.

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At this point, don't bother even speculating on how this affects SCQ and POSOM. Who gives a rats [censored]? If you would like a change, make a request and take her answer for what it is. If it's something that you REALLY want, then go two to three rounds over it.

yup
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/10/08 11:16 PM
Yeah, it's probably overcomplication. Part of it comes from knowing how much they enjoy the individual time, and the frustration that it's difficult to provide it as a single parent (and that it shouldn't be this way and doesn't have to be this way, but that I have to accept it anyway, because it isn't under my control).

The kids are getting more used to the situation and how it works, but I like to be able to take DS8 to the park for an hour and a half to practice baseball stuff without having to worry about DD5 getting bored or having to go to the bathroom or whatever. Or being able to play games with DD5 without DS8 around so that she can win something for a change.

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At this point, don't bother even speculating on how this affects SCQ and POSOM. Who gives a rats [censored]? If you would like a change, make a request and take her answer for what it is. If it's something that you REALLY want, then go two to three rounds over it.

Yes . . . this is very good advice.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/11/08 11:47 PM
Hey SD,

Yeah, I did an update. Nothing really, just going more and more towards fully baked. WH dragging feet on providing what marital assets he transferred to OP. Gee, imagine that. Doesn't want me to know, I'm sure. Too bad.

Hasn't it been almost two years for you? Looks like you took your signature off the bottom, so I wasn't for sure. Anyway, two years is enough for anyone and you are the poster boy for the loyal, faithful, patient, BS. Are you going for the Guiness? lol.....

Anyway, the affair will end as soon as your D is final. Someone said it on the board a while back - some affairs needs a M to survive. I think it's true....

You are doing an outstanding job my friend.
Posted By: Sadmo Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/12/08 03:46 AM
SD-
You know, I came from a family that was NOT broken up, and I NEVER had time alone with my mom or dad, unless it just happened that way. I do not think that it needs to be that way with you and your WW. Your kids know that you love them, and as they get older, they will need to realize that the world does NOT just revolve around them, and their happiness. Sometimes they need to realize that they have sisters and brothers, and this is what life is.

I find myself beating myself up because I do not spend so much 'quality' time with the kids as my ex does, but I came to realize that this is what life is: responsibilities, and when they are done, THEN fun. And it actually made my kids clean up more, listen more, help out more. I have one day a week that I have fun with the kids all day, and the other days I either work, or I take care of things at home. And they are learning. Learning that life is not just about fun, and being with each other having fun.

On that same note, I have talked to many a person that has told me the glory days of the door opening after breakfast, not coming home till lunch, then dinner, and not doing a lot WITH our parents. And I have come to realize that WE, the PARENTS, cannot always be there to entertain our kids. That is just not how it is supposed to be.

So STOP beating yourself up over that, and STOP trying to push the split time. I cannot help but think that you are pushing that to mess up her time with POSOM. That is not going to work.

Focus on you a little bit. JUST YOU. It is ok once in a while.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/14/08 06:21 PM
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Are you going for the Guiness?

Jeez, I hope not. It's been long enough. Two and a half years since D-Day, and a year and a half of Plan B.

I'm just trying to do whatever seems to be the right thing at the time. Not disregarding my marriage vows. Not unloading on the SCQ. Not thinking of devious ways to accelerate the demise of the POSOM. Being the best parent that I can be. Enjoying the day, my kids, and my life as best I can. Today.

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I cannot help but think that you are pushing that to mess up her time with POSOM.
Ha. Good one, Sadmo. I had to think twice to make sure I wasn't doing it. It really is about the time with the kids--because it's something that I want to do and it's something that they enjoy. I can honestly say using it as a tool to mess with the infidels was never a motivation. On multiple occasions OMW wanted to coordinate our parenting schedules to mess with them, but I dismissed the idea.

Here's what I am guilty of, though. Because I thought the suggestion WAS messing with her infidelity schedule and that that's why she hadn't replied, I revamped my suggestion such that the split-time days occur on her weekdays (without any DJ-laced reasons why). She responded that it should be split across our days and said I should take DD5 on Tuesday (her day) and she would take DD5 on Wednesday (my day). Which made me conclude that the SCQ will just take DD5 with her to POSOM's on Wednesdays (POSOM has small girls). I don't think she would do this with DS8, so I said I wanted DS8 on Tuesday instead. She agreed for this week but said she wanted it the other way around going forward, but next week the kids and I are traveling and I'm thinking I'll let the whole thing drop after this week.

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So STOP beating yourself up over that
Yeah, I really don't think I'm doing too much of that. Using it as something to be angry about, maybe, but I know that I'm doing the best I can and believe that I'm doing a good job. So, no, the kids don't NEED me to be their playmate, but if I can and want to, shouldn't I? They will be older and too busy with friends for me soon enough.

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Focus on you a little bit.

I am in one of those 'something is missing' grooves. I feel the urge to do something, but I don't know what it is. A vacation? A major purchase? A house remodel? All of these are possible (and due), but I can't seem to get excited about any of them.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/14/08 08:19 PM
SD,

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I am in one of those 'something is missing' grooves. I feel the urge to do something, but I don't know what it is. A vacation? A major purchase? A house remodel? All of these are possible (and due), but I can't seem to get excited about any of them

I understand this very well. Lots to do, lots of options, but hard sometimes to get excited about any of it. Been there. Done that. Probably will be there again.

Have a party. Just something small with close friends and a relaxing time. My girl party was just that and it seemed to really refresh ME as an individual

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/16/08 07:03 AM
I had a good evening with DS8. We had enough daylight left to get in some time at the park doing some baseball drills, which we both like. Then out for dinner (IHOP) and back to watch the All-Star game on DVR, which was fun.

During dinner, DS8 told me that POSOM has a house now (as opposed to the rented condo) and that DD5 and the SCQ are spending the night there. Tomorrow it is his turn. The house is his old one now that he has bought his wife out and forced her to move.

I'm trying not to let this bother me, and for the most part it isn't. It is tempting to plant questions for him to ask, but it would be putting him in the middle of things, so it is easy to resist the temptation. Questions to POSOM like "Nice house. Where does your wife live now?"

I want to lash out at the SCQ and make her feel the pain of what she's doing, but there wouldn't be much point, so I won't.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/16/08 11:47 AM
SD,

I am sorry my friend. I KNOW how much that hurts - you know that I do. Although it's expected,,it still feels like an ax right in the heart, doesn't it.

Well, remember, the best laid plans of a WS and the OP are most often NOT the reality that they end up getting! The more normalthey try to make their lives, the more REALITY comes into play.

I know it's hard when it's your own personal sitch, but think about all of the times you've read about here when REALITY sinks in in Affairland, the R they have built on lies, pain & deceit usually crumbles much faster.

That's the attitude I took when Drac started the overnights with the Ho and the kids. I just prayed that reality would strike all the more quickly. I'm praying the same for you and the kids.

Keep fighting the temptation to ask questions or lay them out for the kids to ask. I know you knowthat, I just want to support you in that battle. I like to think that it was helpful in my sitch that I didn't ask ANY questions. I don't know if it helped the demise, but I do know that it helped ME to be darker and more at peace.

{{{{{{{{{{{{SD}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/16/08 12:43 PM
((((SD))))

We all know how much it hurts. We all have the T-shirts too, you know.

But, it sounds like fun huh? Spending the night in the house that your AP shared with their former spouse? That has to be appealing to the SCQ. Yep, one big happy family over there. Puke me a river.



yeah dude, that's about as lame as lame can get

throw your wife out to move in the new family, his pitch fork in he11 will have extra tines on it

I know you're not kicking a dead horse, but maybe it's about time to stop wondering if it's dead

how much longer till the divorce is final?
Quote
But, it sounds like fun huh? Spending the night in the house that your AP shared with their former spouse? That has to be appealing to the SCQ. Yep, one big happy family over there. Puke me a river.

I second this.

We'll puke into their River of Denial. sick

Geez, talk about added insult to his wife. What a catch he is.

Fox
Isn't that in Egypt?
yes, I know that joke was lame

it will never happen again


NOT!!
BC,

You can tell when the vienna sausages dipped in the bayou take effect - JOKES LIKE THAT!

laugh

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/16/08 05:03 PM
Thanks, guys. Insomnia last night, but it wasn't because I was laying awake stewing over the SCQ stuff. The SCQ thing just kind of drifted in and out with other things going on, so it could be worse.

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But, it sounds like fun huh? Spending the night in the house that your AP shared with their former spouse?

I hadn't really thought of it that way yet. Thanks for bringing in the perspective.

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That has to be appealing to the SCQ.
Enough that she chooses to spend her individual time with the kids bringing them there. Example number 785 for how far gone she is.

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his pitch fork in he11 will have extra tines on it
This guy seems to be a real piece of work. After OMW found out about the affair, she filed for divorce. Then (while continuing the affair), he sweet talked her into dropping the case. Over the next several months, he successfully painted her as a nut job and then filed his own divorce case. Before that, I think she could have gotten primary custody of the kids (he had the affair, he left the home) and kept the house. As it stands now, she has only partial custody and doesn't get spousal support (and she really needs it). It doesn't make sense, but I don't want to wade into it any deeper than I already have--her helplessness just frustrates me.

Quote
how much longer till the divorce is final?
Soon, I hope. Her lawyer was supposed to have been drafting the MSA last week. I asked my lawyer for an update. Maybe within a month?
good deal

I really think you need it finalized to get your personal recovery to the next level

It's a huge weight off your shoulders and it provides some closure.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/16/08 06:14 PM
Quote
good deal

I really think you need it finalized to get your personal recovery to the next level

It's a huge weight off your shoulders and it provides some closure.

It's probably a big surprise but I agree with BC 100%. It's time.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/16/08 07:05 PM
Yeah SD. I agree with the others. We've all been there, but sometimes I just want to shake you and tell you to kick that broad to the curb. Enough is Enuf.

Not trying to be mean. I think we all want to end each other's pain and protect each other around here.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/16/08 07:23 PM
Quote
sometimes I just want to shake you and tell you to kick that broad to the curb.

I know you aren't the only one.

I'm ready to be done with the marriage. So that I can at least look around and see what moving on might feel like.

A few minutes ago I took a couple of roses from my yard to one of my colleagues I don't really know--I just pass her in the hallway occasionally. It's not a big deal--I bring roses to my other female colleagues semi-regularly, but this is the first time I've brought any to someone I didn't really know (and someone who catches my attention when they walk past).

I don't pine for the SCQ, but I still long for it to be the way I think it should be. I haven't finished struggling with God. Not all the way, anyway. Sometimes I need BR to thump me with the Hammer of Acceptance.

Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/16/08 07:25 PM
Quote
Sometimes I need BR to thump me with the Hammer of Acceptance

Well if that's all it takes:

WHAP
Quote
Yeah SD. I agree with the others. We've all been there, but sometimes I just want to shake you and tell you to kick that broad to the curb.

Oh, sorry. I thought Chai was talking about BR in the quote above, then I see further below that SD ASKED for her to knock him with the Hammer of Acceptance. crazy

Good lord, you must LIKE the pain, SD.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/16/08 11:07 PM
Yer funny, Foxy.

I don't see where I ASKED for it, just mused that sometimes it seems to be called for, or maybe appropriate.

That sometimes I am stubborn and thick-headed. I certainly don't know anyone else like that.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/16/08 11:35 PM
Originally Posted by wildhorses74
[quote] Good lord, you must LIKE the pain, SD.

Fox,

Is that what they call sadomasochism?
I'd be happy to smack you upside da head when you need it, Guy. After all, that's what friends are for! Abusive friends, but friends- no less. grin

Oh, and I'm tellin Foxy you eluded to her stubbornness (nah na nah na boo boo)
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/17/08 12:30 AM
I've been kind of counting on you guys for that.

I get DD5 tonight. I'm thinking about taking her to extended hours at the zoo.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/17/08 01:19 AM
Hey!!

What's the big idea of all of this whacking going on without ME??

I wanna give you a shot up side the head, too!!! PLLEEAASSE??

Take heart, dear friend, that we love you enough to resort to violence as necessary!!

Hope you have fun at the zoo. Watch out for waywards throwing their poo at you,,,,,,,,,OOPS, I mean monkies! It's so easy to confuse the 2.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/17/08 01:29 AM
DS8 didn't want us to go to the zoo without him, so we're holding off on that til tomorrow. Now I'm thinking about going bike shopping. For a pink one with tassles coming off the handlebars.

On the way home DD5 told me she told the SCQ that POSOM is a bad guy (this after a discussion of smoking being bad for you, that neither of us will ever smoke, the POSOM smokes and is thus dumb). I'm sure that went over well.


Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/17/08 01:52 AM
Quote
Now I'm thinking about going bike shopping. For a pink one with tassles coming off the handlebars.

Is that for YOU or for DD?? laugh

My first one was purple with tassles!!

Quote
she told the SCQ that POSOM is a bad guy (this after a discussion of smoking being bad for you, that neither of us will ever smoke, the POSOM smokes and is thus dumb). I'm sure that went over well.

Out of the mouths of babes,,,,,

And I'm sure that the smoking was not the only reason she told SCQ that, but it was one that was ok for her to use to state her feelings. Good for her!

Just smile. You are raising good kids. SCQ will just have to deal with that, even when it smacks her in the face. You didn't set it up, she spoke from her heart,,,, from her own 'truth' and that's a good thing.

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I'm sure that went over well.

Yup, just like a turd in a punchbowl.

As for this...

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Now I'm thinking about going bike shopping. For a pink one with tassles coming off the handlebars.

It's a little girlie, but I suppose you can pull it off, being OLD and of feeble mind and all... crazy

Good luck on that one.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/17/08 04:23 AM
We found a pink bicycle with tassles on the handles (thus fulfilling the requirements) at the first store, and DD5 declared it to be perfect and just the one she wanted. Alas, there were no pink bicycles in my size, nor any with tassled handlebars.

Got an email from the SCQ about kid exchanges this weekend. All very businesslike.
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That sometimes I am stubborn and thick-headed. I certainly don't know anyone else like that.

I know! But we love chrisner anyway, so we'll overlook it for you, too.

Fox

grin
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/17/08 02:33 PM
Now wait.. I thought stubborn and thick headed was a requirement for being part of this club..

I mean.. for real, who takes promises/vows/relationships seriously these days.. it's like high school.. flitting from one to the other in society anymore.. Marriage just means you can have joint bank accounts and fight over them later..

Stupid stubborn, thick headed us's....


well.. better than evil robot us's I suppose...

Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/17/08 03:19 PM
It's time for your medication James.
Quote
better than evil robot us's I suppose...

I dunno; I'd probably look pretty hot with metal legs...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/17/08 05:07 PM
Quote
I'd probably look pretty hot with metal legs...
I started working on this as a mental image and got bogged down somewhere. Like trying to calculate the square root of negative 1.
I would look pretty hot with metal legs AS LONG AS everybody were evil robots. Is that better Guy? Hmmmmm?
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/17/08 05:14 PM
Google a guy named Hajime Sorayama (he's not Hungarian) to get the "picture".
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/17/08 05:23 PM
BLOCKED by my corporate filter!

Okay, I think I'm getting the idea.
Apparently, his robots were like that shown on the cover of the album "Just Push Play" by Aerosmith.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/17/08 05:39 PM
He did that album cover.
Oh, I thought he just INSPIRED it. Cool beans. Yup, that's what I would look like if I HAD to become an evil robot. a HOT evil robot. DS would be a cool smaller version of said robot. We would be the evil cool robot family; and we would eat robot food and live in a robotic house, with our robotic terrier and greyhound. Oh, and my robot cat. Wait, what was I talking about.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/17/08 07:08 PM
You've put a lot of thought into the evil robot thing, I see. Me, I trend toward mad scientist/evil genius thinking.

It's all good, though, because mad scientists and evil robots go together like gin and tonic.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/17/08 07:11 PM
Quote
BLOCKED by my corporate filter!

You can make controlled substances in your lab but can't google up a robot?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/17/08 07:13 PM
I'm sure there's a policy against that sort of thing, but it's harder to enforce than screening out anything tagged as ADULT content from the corporate web.

Besides, what happens in the lab stays in the lab. Unless it doesn't.
What's he building in there?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/17/08 09:16 PM
A giant wooden badger
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/18/08 11:56 AM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
A giant wooden badger


Defeat at Skank Castle seems to have utterly disheartened King Smiley. The ferocity of the French taunting took him completely by surprise, and Smiley became convinced that a new strategy was required if the quest for the Sippy Cup were to be brought to a successful conclusion. Guy, having consulted his closest Amigos, decided that they should separate, and search for the Cup individually. Now, this is what they did--



Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/18/08 04:56 PM
LOL.

Ooh, ooh, can I be Lancelot?

No, wait. Galahad. What was I thinking there?
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/18/08 04:58 PM
Sorry Dude, you’re still married.

I dibs the Castle Anthrax.

Wicked Zoot!!
Y'all are nerds.

Anyway, if we are picking characters, I'd like to nominate PWC as Sir Robin, for he ran away.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/18/08 05:07 PM
Quote
I'd like to nominate PWC as Sir Robin, for he ran away.

Nope. Won't fly. Sir Robin "bravely" ran away. Soiled his armor, sure. But he "bravely" ran away.
Quote
Sir Robin "bravely" ran away


Ah, yes, I see your point. I guess he'll have to be the dead man on the cart.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/18/08 05:12 PM
Maybe one of the background Knights Who Say Ni. They were kinda wishy washy too.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/18/08 07:24 PM
Quote
Sorry Dude, you’re still married.

Damn. I guess I have to be Tim the Enchanter. A loner out on a mountain making things explode.
Posted By: Verve Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/18/08 07:37 PM
"There are some who call me...Tim?"

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/22/08 12:11 AM
Another Monday.

I had a good time with the kids over the weekend. DS8 went off with a friend yesterday, and DD5 got to play with some of the other little girls on the block, including having them into our house.

I had casually discussed the girls playing together with the mom ("Yeah, we'll be around--maybe the girls can play together") and then mentioned this to DD5, who heard it as a play-date. "It'll be my very first play-date," she said, and it made me cringe.

That she could already be this old not having had a play-date was uncomfortable. She plays with other kids at day-care all day long, so the at-home time has been more with us. Plus, our kids seem like the only ones on the block with two working parents, which seemed to put up a barrier between our kids and the neighborhood kids. Now the whole sometimes-they're-here-sometimes-they-aren't also feels like a barrier, but that may be more in my mind. Play-dates is one more thing I (as a single dad) am not very comfortable dealing with, but it's not like the SCQ was any good at it either.

Anyway, DD5 had a great time with the girls. She had lots of the activities planned out in her head, and the other girls (two of whom were a couple of years older) let her be the social director. It was pretty cute to watch--especially how much more confident she was once she got on her home turf. It tells me I need to do more of this.

I had a hard time getting engaged with the world this morning. Probably didn't get enough sleep.

ETA: Oh yeah. I had to suffer through the kids telling me that they helped POSOM move in to his "new house" on Saturday. Barf-o-Rama. Finally, I slipped and said "It's not new. It's the one he kicked his wife out of." A true comment, to be sure, but I can hear my IC asking me "and how do you think this helps the kids?"

Waywards disgust me.
Posted By: believer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/22/08 12:34 AM
You are a great dad, SDGuy. Don't be so hard on yourself. I always felt guilty when my son was almost 7 and didn't know how to play baseball.

Your girls have a loving father and they will do just fine.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/22/08 04:58 AM
Thanks, B. I don't always give myself enough credit. I just want things to be better for them.

I was chatting with a yoga instructor tonight about tightness I'm carrying around in my back and explained some of the things I'm carrying around. She urged me to look at what I'm gaining rather than what I'm losing.

Maybe when I can do that my shoulders and back won't be so tight.

At the moment, I'm resenting the SCQ for being so small and useless.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/22/08 11:38 AM
SD,

Hey Guy! I am with ya - - tight back & all! Mine, however, is more from mowing the grass yesterday.

Your yoda instructor is right,,,you do need to be looking for more of the UP side of things - Yet I understand how hard that can be sometimes. Try to find just one tiny thing at a time and build on that.

The 'play date' story you told is quite sweet. Stop beating yourself up and just plan to do more in the future. MY Ladybug didn't have playdates much until we moved. We were too far out in the country for it to be feasible with our work schedules. Now that we are in a real neighborhood, things have changed a lot.

I have kids running in and out of the house anytime the kids are here. It's great! It doesn't have to be a 'formal' playdate. Just open your door and let them come in! I grew up in the country, too, so that wasn't the way at my house - - my mom had to transport us back & forth. Lucky for us, she was a SAHM.

Anyway,,,,just make more of an 'open door' policy at the house and the kids will make their own way. Start by being outside yourself and just giving them the chance to interact more, the rest will take care of itself.

About the 'slip', don't beat yourself up too badly. It happens. Just be more self aware in the future.

You ARE an outstanding father!! Don't forget that!

((SD))
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/23/08 03:06 AM
Quote
Your yoda instructor is right

“Named must your fear be before banish it you can.”

"Go you must let."

"Downward facing must the dog be."

But thanks for the vote of confidence, Bugsy. grin

Tomorrow the kids and I are off to Colorado to visit my best friends from where I grew up. They have just relocated to the Boulder area, so we fully intend to hook up with Chrisner and DD20 while we're there.

I'm hearing that it's hot in Colorado. It was in the upper 70s this afternoon, which is kind of warm for me. Guess the kids and I are in for a shock to the system.
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Your yoda instructor is right

Young Padawan. OMG, this typo is one of my favorites. I can see your green instructor now, in his robes, working the cane into every move...

Quote
so we fully intend to hook up with Chrisner and DD20 while we're there.

Oh, I'm jealous. Hope you have a blast. Laugh lots, okay. Smiling is my favorite.

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I'm hearing that it's hot in Colorado. It was in the upper 70s this afternoon

Seriously, Guy? Hot? Seriously?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/23/08 03:49 AM
Well, I only said kind of warm.

My shoulders are tense. Part of it is travel anxiety (I always get a bit anxious the night before traveling), plus some triggering email exchange. Here's part of the exchange:

(June 23) SCQ: Will there be loan docs for me to sign from you refinancing the house this week? There will be paperwork associated with the loan to get the house transferred to just you.

(June 23) SDG: No, there will be no paperwork to sign this week.

(June 27) SCQ: Is there a problem with the preliminary write up for the settlement? Will you have the loan started so that there will be things for me to sign the week of 7/7?

(June 27) SDG: No problem. I don't know when there will be anything for you to sign, but I will let you know.

(June 27) SCQ: Ok. But why don't you know when? Is there a problem getting the loan?

(July 5 visit by MIL. MIL finds out that our divorce is not complete--MIL did not know this. Agrees that the SCQ is committing adultery)

(July 6) SCQ: I didn't see a response to this. Did I miss it? Have you started to refinance? I need to know that you have started this by 3pm tomorrow, Monday 7/7. Otherwise I will be contacting the lawyer to start paperwork to get a court date to have the judge decide when you get this done or maybe the judge decides to force the sale of the house. I would rather we just settle this ourselves. If I have to do this I will also be asking for all attorney fees since from my perspective you are stalling this and forcing me to have attorneys involved when really we do not need to have them involved so much.

(July 6) SDG: I'm not stalling anything. The way I think it's supposed to work is that the agreement gets finalized and then you get the money.

I started the loan refinance. Your lawyer is supposed to be drawing up the MSA.

(July 7) SCQ: Thank you. Guess it is them that is not communicating. Sorry for jumping at you about it. I'll talk to them tomorrow.

(July 7) SCQ: The way it works is sort of up to you. I'm sure someone explained the options to you. The money can come to me directly (check, direct deposit, or wire probably) or you can involve the lawyers and put it in an escrow account and then when things are done I guess then it will come to me. I don't know if lawyers charge for escrow accounts so you can decide how you want it to go. At some point in the refinance I will need to sign something to have the house transferred to you. A notery may just visit me with the paperwork to get that done.

My lawyer is writing up the MSA this week.

(July 12) SCQ: What progress was made on the refinance this week?

(July 12) SDG: The house was appraised again. Please don't pester me any more about the loan. It makes me angry.

(July 13) SCQ: I won't pester if you let me know what is going on. You could send simple updates so that I don't have to ask.

(Today) SCQ: It has been over a week since you last gave an update on the loan. I said I wouldn't ask if you would give an update. I think that a week is long enough between updates. Please send one before you leave for CO and then again before the end of the day on Fridays until this is done. Since the appraisal was redone this shouldn't take much longer.

(Today) SDG: Why are you so concerned about the loan rather than the divorce?

Here's the update: yesterday I received a loan approval/commitment letter. The status of the loan is "processing." The approval is subject to the condition of me providing evidence of the liability of "alimony and/or child support" with respect to my "payment terms, unpaid balance, and the amount of payment."

Where is your lawyer with the MSA? That's what I need as evidence of the above.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/23/08 03:54 AM
Here's the fortune I got in my Chinese last night:

Your path is arduous but will be amply rewarding.
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/23/08 06:53 AM
Hi SD,

Just read the last few pages of your thread, SD. You seem to be in a lot of contact with WW, and wondered if this was so from the beginning, or since decision to go ahead with Plan D.

I recall reading the fact that you consult with Jennifer, and just wondered about what is the general plan you are now on.

Being in contact with a WS can be quite demanding...emotionally! Glad to hear you are going away for a break from it all.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/23/08 07:20 AM
Hi, Luna

My Plan B has never been textbook darkness, but it is completely Jennifer-sanctioned.

The contact has been almost exclusively email or TM and businesslike, and generally about kid logistics. Jennifer wasn't crazy about me negotiating a divorce settlement directly with the SCQ (the SCQ filed, I didn't), but when I explained that it's saving me thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars, she agreed that it was a no-brainer.

Jennifer maintains that it really doesn't matter what I do--if the SCQ comes home it won't be because of anything I do. It will be because the affair finally implodes. This really reduces it to a waiting game, and thus plan B is really trying to preserve one's willingness to reconcile. At a year and half in, I'm still willing to reconcile, so I think it has done its job. I think yours worked, too.

My divorce has inched along because no one has been pushing it. Early on, I told my lawyer don't do anything to progress it. The SCQ hasn't really pushed it, either, so it must be coming up on 20 months soon. Lately, the SCQ hasn't said anything about completing the divorce--just getting her share of the equity from the house.

My most recent Plan B goal was to make it to the divorce not having done anything to accelerate it and still be actively opposed to it. At this point, I can say with honesty "I don't want to be divorced. I think this is all a terrible mistake. However, since you insist on this, let's get it over with." I'm ready to be finished with this part of it.

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Being in contact with a WS can be quite demanding...emotionally!

Yes. . . you are absolutely right about that. It's a big part of why my shoulders keep creeping up the back of my neck. I wouldn't recommend my path to anyone; at the same time, I don't think I've done any permanent damage to myself, either.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/23/08 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
At this point, I can say with honesty "I don't want to be divorced. I think this is all a terrible mistake. However, since you insist on this, let's get it over with." I'm ready to be finished with this part of it.

..........

I wouldn't recommend my path to anyone; at the same time, I don't think I've done any permanent damage to myself, either.


I can identify so much with this Guy.. While I agree on not recommending this path, I can say with absolute certainty that I would have a difficult time looking myself in the mirror, or my children in the eyes any other way.

Be proud of who you are.. it's an epic struggle you've waged, but yet you carry yourself with humility and honor. Nobody can take these things away from you, and it makes you a better person every day to boot.. not to mention the hero you are to your kids.

Enjoy your vacation bro.. and tip one back with Chris for me.

I'd just like to kick the SCQ [censored]. Maybe her head will fall out.

I wouldn't engage in these type of back and forths (well...I probably WOULD but shouldn't). She is demanding information and lifting your shoulders to your neck at the same time. You don't HAVE to update her and especially not when she tells you too.

You can provide any new information that comes along as you wish, but you don't have to update her when there is nothing. Geez, this stuff takes time.

Let her get the lawyers involved to get her information. She filed, they aren't going to grant her lawyers fees.

She'd rather badger you anyway.

Tell her to call someone who cares. Then give her my number. laugh

Fox

ETA: Say "hi" to chris and DD20. Please do not pee off any mountains - it's bad for the environment.
Oy, with that kind of email exchange, I can see why your ears are eager to meet up with your shoulders.

It's been a long time since I had that type of interaction. I suppose I should prepare myself for the inevitable emails after PWC is served. I'll just tell him to talk to my lawyer (even though i really wanna say 'talk to the hand')

couldn't you do the same? tell SCQ to talk to the lawyer?
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/23/08 02:44 PM
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tell SCQ to talk to the lawyer?

Tell her to talk to the TV again. That seemed to work for her.

Weather should be good out here. It has cooled a little from the past couple weeks and should be in the mid-90's through your visit. Overnight lows around 62 degrees. We will probably start seeing a little more afternoon thunderstorm possibilities. It is that time of year.

Perfect drinking weather!!
Ah, well, the mid 90's IS hot. The mid 70's is NOT.

Isn't all weather good drinking weather. Oh, crap, it's raining outside--that's good sitting on the couch watching a movie glass of wine weather. OY, it's a scorcher outside--that's good floating in the pool (or dipping your toes in the blowup baby pool) sipping on a Margarita weather. Then you've got the snowy days--that's good sitting inside next to the fire, playing board games--having a hot toddy weather.

I mean, DUH!
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/23/08 03:12 PM
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The mid 70's is NOT.

I think he was talking about the "horrible" weather in San Diego.

So once again let's hear from Triumph
It's all about the money. Something really smells about this, especially with the delay of the MSA. Almost sounds like they are wanting BADLY for the refinance to be done BEFORE the MSA is signed.

Why are you letting her set deadlines for what YOU do? Un-uh. That ain't the way it works. She wanted out, she got what she wanted. I'd still let the house refinance move along at a snail's pace. Too bad for her.

You paying her attorney's fees? I don't think that's going to happen.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/23/08 03:33 PM
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It's all about the money. Something really smells about this, especially with the delay of the MSA. Almost sounds like they are wanting BADLY for the refinance to be done BEFORE the MSA is signed.

SCQ has been about this for a loooooong time. Wayzilla did the same thing. She pushed hard for the refinance prior to the actual final decree. I simply told her no.
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Why are you letting her set deadlines for what YOU do? Un-uh. That ain't the way it works. She wanted out, she got what she wanted. I'd still let the house refinance move along at a snail's pace. Too bad for her.

I agree, FWIW.



Fox
Is it permissible to say "Go suck an egg" to her in regards to the refinance order? That's not out of bounds, is it?

Seriously, do you HAVE to have the refi done prior to the divorce decree?

Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/23/08 09:19 PM


Boy, oh Boy!

I have waited all day since reading you post with the back and forth with her because if I had posted right away, I would have been tossed off the Board for foul language!

mad mad mad mad mad mad mad mad mad mad

Just WHO does she think she is??

I'd love to tell her something a bit stronger than Suck an Egg, but I need you all too much to get thrown off the Board! UGH!!

I can only say DITTO to everything you have already been told.

You do NOT have to do ANYTHING according to HER schedule. For her to immediately throw out there the THREAT to have a judge force you to do this or to do that tells me that she is VERY AFRAID of something.

She's pushing this for a reason that scares her.

SO WHAT? That's not YOUR problem.

You don't have to do anything prior to a set decree. LEAST of which is providing HER with ANY type of updates about the refi. Refer her to your attorney if necessary.

Who cares if it costs her more money to have the Attorneys involved more? SHE asked for this, not you. Drac tried layiing that whole pile of steaming craplo on me, too. Didn't work.

Quit letting her push your buttons. Delete the email before you read them or have someone screen them for you. Switch all communication about this stuff to your attorneys. It is worth every dime to avoid this kind of abuse from her.

You gotta get those shoulders down from your ears and you aren't going to be able to do that by engaging with her like this.

Please, my friend, start protecting yourself. Tell her to "**^&^*%%^&^(&^$$".

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I'd love to tell her something a bit stronger than Suck an Egg, but I need you all too much to get thrown off the Board! UGH!!

This is exactly why I asked, because what I want to say will NOT be permissible.

Guy, take a lesson from "West Side Story "

Just play it cool boy, real cool cool
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/24/08 12:11 AM
Yeah, SD, "Get a rocket in your pocket" boy. Tell her ya ain't doin' nuttin' till the judge orders you to.

Shame that there isn't a law that states the adulterer (adultress) pays the legal fees.

She probably needs the money to help the POSOM pay the mortgage on the house that he kicked his wife out of. The SCQ probably wants to redecorate.
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/24/08 03:13 AM
SD,

Thanks for following up on my post.

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Jennifer maintains that it really doesn't matter what I do--

Given that you are dealing with a WS...how hard is to to keep LB and DJ in check in your exchanges with her? ...and aren't the kind of emails you are getting from her draining your Lovebank?

I wonder if this is something that is healthy to try and maintain longterm... it certainly makes it much more important for you to keep an eye on your stress level, and adjust accordingly...

I hope your kids will someday realize how hard their Dad worked at wanting to keep their family together....regardless of the outcome...








Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/25/08 02:52 AM
SSSSDDDDDD!!! Where are you. I know it isn't dark out there yet, but some of the rest of us are out already.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/25/08 05:21 AM
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SSSSDDDDDD!!! Where are you. I know it isn't dark out there yet, but some of the rest of us are out already.

He is in Colorful Colorado (if you visit the Eastern third,the color is brown). They took a trip into the front range today and from what I understand, had a great time.

I just talked to him a couple hours ago. We are having lunch on Saturday with his DD and DS and hopefully my DD20. I am really looking forward to it. So is DD.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/25/08 02:43 PM
Well I hope that you all are having a most excellent adventure out there. Something the kids will remember for the rest of their lives. I still remember the cross country trip our family took when I was 5. I have the film that my dad took of the trip, and my brother and I would love to watch them but we don't have a movie projector! 8mm - it's a dino now. Costs a fortune to transfer them to DVD. Take lots of pics though. Kids will love looking at them later....


Think of all of us who are stuck in a boring, hot, humid, Midwest town. UGH.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/25/08 03:34 PM
SD:

If the MSA isn't done, have your attorney insert language that the refinance has to occur "90 to 120 days" after the final divorce decree. No reason for you to do it any sooner than that.

If there have been other agreements, that overrule this, then your stuck.

I wouldn't let her have a nickel until the D was done. SHE can sign the papers relenquishing title to the house and a note securing her interest (a fixed amount) as part of the D process.

Then, refinance according to the last date that you have to. I think rates are going down anyway. Make a stipulation that you have to be able to refinance at a rate that is lower than your existing rate.

Just a thought.

LG
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/28/08 02:34 PM
Hey SD,

I hope you and the kids got home safely. What a real pleasure it was to meet DD5 and DS8. They are really great kids! They both are polite, intelligent, mature and outgoing. It was too bad that DD20 was working and not able to go but DGS was thrilled to meet you and the kids. DD20 was very disappointed she could not be there when I told her about our lunch that evening but passes on her best wishes for you.

For those who were not there, DS8 is a very mature young man with an absolute passion for baseball. He’s a budding pitcher already capable of control pitching multiple grips and by his own shrugging admission, “pretty much can play any position.”

DD5 is about as adorable (this is NO exaggeration, the ladies here would have melted meeting this kid.) as a girl can get. And what a Daddy’s girl she is! When we were about to leave DD5 had to go to the restroom. DGS needed to go too and offered to take her so DD5 jumped out of her booster with a huge smile and held out her hand ready to go. As they departed DD5 told DGS, “This will be fun!” In the restroom DD5 admitted to DGS that she does indeed know that she is “very cute.” SD, I recommend a Mossberg 590 Model for when the “dating years” start.

Driving away, DGS went into a total rant, “What kind of a stupid moron of a woman would leave a man like that and two children that incredible? She’s has got to be total idiot!” It went on longer but those were certainly the polite highlights. I have to agree SD. Voluntarily making the decision to only be in those kids lives part time is akin to mental instability.

You are a great dad SD. I hope you guys had a great vacation with your friends. They were very nice people as well.

Keep your head up. You are almost at the finish line.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/28/08 02:40 PM
Welcome back SD. Sounds like you all had a great time with Chrisner. If what he says is true, and I don't doubt for a minute that it is, the SQC will be hurting when that A finally ends.

You are definitely an MB success story and an inspiration for all of us....
DS8 and DS4 would have lots to talk about.

Oh, and the Mossberg 590 would leave a he11 of a mess. Maybe use it to scare them, but if you've got to pull the trigger, just stick with a sawed off 20 gauge with bird shot. You can pepper there sorry a$$es with out getting the police involved.

Then again, I'm sure DS8 will be keeping an eye on the punks for SD. A fast ball between the eyes is even better.

Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/28/08 03:11 PM
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Mossberg 590 would leave a he11 of a mess.

This represents no problem for me based on a couple of the living dead DD20 brought home over the years. For some of the less offensive freakishly stupid ones she brought home I would agree that snakeshot rounds in the 1911 would be conclusive enough.

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Then again, I'm sure DS8 will be keeping an eye on the punks for SD. A fast ball between the eyes is even better.

Yep, they are the right age difference for this. Some day she is going to get real mad at him for taking care of business with some young mutt that comes sniffing around.

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DS8 and DS4 would have lots to talk about.

Indeed they would.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/28/08 11:33 PM
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If the MSA isn't done, have your attorney insert language that the refinance has to occur "90 to 120 days" after the final divorce decree. No reason for you to do it any sooner than that.

If there have been other agreements, that overrule this, then your stuck.

Her lawyer drafted the MSA, and it is written such that the money gets paid first. The SCQ apparently viewed the house refinance as a step in the process. I got this as part of her reply to me

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Things can certainly not be final until the house has been refinanced, deed signed over to you, and monies transferred. So that is why I ask about the loan. I will check to see if the MSA can be completed before the house is refinanced but I don't think so.

At this point, I don't even care whether she believes this or not. I just want it over. My lender is ready to process the loan next week, so it's not really an issue.

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You paying her attorney's fees? I don't think that's going to happen.

The joys of a no-fault state. I make twice what the SCQ makes, so my understanding is that if she asks, they will put the financial info into a big spreadsheet, turn the crank, and it will say how much I will have to pay. Can you hear the words? Let it go . . . . I'm still coming out way ahead financially.

I certainly appreciate all the opinions rendered (Fox, SL, LG, PM, Chrisner) and moral outrage (Bugsy, CL).

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Given that you are dealing with a WS...how hard is to to keep LB and DJ in check in your exchanges with her?

Oh, man, Luna. Talk about hitting the nail on the head. It takes all of the peace I can muster from yoga, beach walks, posting here, ADs, etc. to avoid unloading on her. Consider, for example, this gem, which came in about ten minutes ago:

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You need to watch what you say to the children or what you say to others when the children are anywhere near including when you think they are asleep. DD5, out of the blue, told me you said POSOM was mean. I asked her what she thought of him and she does not think that. I asked her why you said that and she told me that you told her "POSOM pushed his wife into the street".

I imagine that you spoke with OMW recently and you actually said something else (not that it was appropriate either) and that DD5 got it confused. It doesn't really matter what you said. Nothing should have been said at all in front of the children that was negative about me or my life.

Saying these kinds of things are inappropriate. You have been warned by the court (family mediation) about saying inappropriate things in front of the children. There will be language in the MSA requiring us to not involve the children in these kinds of activities. This is not an issue for me but obviously you are still having trouble abiding by it now.

You need to keep your opinions of me and my life away from our children. You are entitled to your opinions but you are not entitled to talk about it with the children. If you have issues or questions about something you should address them to me.

Now, if that doesn't scream for a scathing reply, what does? But I'm going to let it go. I deleted it from my email and will ignore it as the ravings of a lunatic unhappy with the bed they made. Sometimes it is easy to let these things go. Other times, more difficult.

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...and aren't the kind of emails you are getting from her draining your Lovebank?

Yeah, I would have to say that the old Love Bank only has a couple of cobwebs left in it, or maybe a small black hole. When I think of the SCQ, my feelings range from disgust and contempt to pity and sadness. There is no love for the SCQ. She can drop dead. What I have been successful at is recognizing the difference between my W and my WW. I believe in Fog, and in the temporary insanity of infidelity. I still believe my W may emerge some day. I'm just not waiting for it anymore. Whatever happens happens.

But the trip. . . it was great! Several days with my friends L & S were just what I needed. I think I will be going back soon. We laughed and joked and riffed off each other. And speculated about my new life and dating strategies. And drank. And had fun. Recently I found a travel journal I had written on a trip with L to Australia, New Zealand, and Fiji something like 20 years ago when we were young and stupid (younger and stupider?), and I read it out loud during our stay. Even the kids enjoyed it. All in all, it was like being in the comfort of home--like a sanctuary. Thanks again to L & S, who read here from time to time.

The lunch with Chrisner and DGS was a real pleasure. Chrisner hasn't changed since the Gathering of Fruits and Nuts, of course, but the exciting part was getting to meet DGS. Amigo, I can only hope to be so lucky when the time comes. And thanks for the kind words about my children. I agree--they are pretty great.

They had a good time, too. We hiked in a canyon one day. Drove up to Rocky Mountain National Park for a horseback ride another (instead of co-riding with me, DD5 got/had to ride her own horse on the trail; DS8 got scraped off when his horse Norman decided to go under instead of around the branch, but then dropped to the ground unhurt--some excitement for everyone). And after the lunch with Chrisner and DGS, we went to Golden for a Buffalo Bill festival. While there, the kids got to try panning for gold (and came away with some). Apparently, there are still places where you can make money panning for gold (especially with today's prices). Alas, not in San Diego.

Okay. . . I imagine I left something out, but that's certainly long enough. Thanks again to everyone who reads and posts to me. The support is greatly appreciated.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/29/08 11:47 AM
SD,

I'm shaking my head after reading that email. Your restraint is to be admired. I don't think that many of us could ignore that one. Heck, I would love to reply to that one myself and tell her a thing or two.

Kick that broad to the curb SD. You deserve far better. This one is not going to come out of the fog for a long, long time. If ever.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/29/08 04:50 PM
Thanks, CL. I thought that would get some heads shaking. Possible responses have crept into my head in the empty moments, but I am trying to let them go. They would fall on deaf ears.

I'm mentally composing another email to send her. When it's ready, maybe I'll post it.
Hi SD,

I don't post to you often, and I haven't gone back and read your entire thread, but I am always amazined at your strength of restraint and dignity by which you handle the stuff in your life.

It's interesting how you too know as well what the difference between the W and WW is. It's so unbelievable at times. I almost wish I could tape WH and have it for the records, because people just don't accept that there are two people in there.

I admire you and your walk and want to thank you for the times and words of encouragment you have given me. You may not realize how you effect my life, but you do and I appreciate you very much.

Queenie
Oh, boy (ROLLEY EYE)

What a piece of work she's turning out to be. Defending that scumbag, Dorkus malorkus. It borders on hilarious.

I can't believe the law would back up anybody on this kind of BS. The courts are full enough, without the SCQ clogging it up with, "SD said POSOM was a MEANIE! Waaaaahahahaha!"

I mean, it's not like you called him a bad name or actually involved your children in the conversation. She sounds like a mother scolding a child.

I know that it's best for the kids not to be in the middle, but they ARE in the middle, and the WS placed them there.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/29/08 07:25 PM
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Possible responses have crept into my head in the empty moments, but I am trying to let them go.
Possible responses to that moronic drivel have been blazing through my head like the 16” guns on the U.S.S. Iowa. Every time I read one of her pathetic, yet oddly comedic diatribes I can actually hear Scarlett O’Hara reading the lines. “Oh SD, whatevah will become of me without the refinance of Tara?”


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DD5, out of the blue, told me you said POSOM was mean.
Yeah, Riiiiight. Right out of the blue a 5 year old needed to say that.


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There is no love for the SCQ. She can drop dead.
Some day when she adds up how much of her children's lives she has missed, she will wish she was dead.

The finish line is in sight amigo. You have entered the stadium lap of the marathon.


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But the trip. . . it was great!
Bravo! It was great to see you. We need more time on the next passage. Especially the drinking part!


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Apparently, there are still places where you can make money panning for gold
The Colorado School of Mines there in Golden is basically filled with “Rock Scientists.” Many of the students pan gold in Colorado during the summer to help with tuition.

I met the women’s basketball coach at Mines a few years ago. He was pretty funny. He said how it’s a little hard to compete for recruiting when his talent pool is comprised basically of future women engineers who can and want to play basketball.


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Chrisner hasn't changed since the Gathering of Fruits and Nuts
I thought I got better looking since then?


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but the exciting part was getting to meet DGS. Amigo, I can only hope to be so lucky when the time comes.
Thank you. She liked you a lot too. She indicated that you will be highly marketable in the single world.

Hang on SD. There are better things ahead.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/29/08 09:06 PM
Queenie, thanks very much for your kind words. Sometimes I post what's going on just out of the hope that it will be useful to someone else. Sometimes I have insights into other people's situations, particularly regarding how I believe Plan B works, and sometimes I even venture out and try to help those people. More often I stick to my thread and those of the amigos to avoid the Conflict Threads, but I'm always available to render an opinion if someone flags me down.

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I can't believe the law would back up anybody on this kind of BS.
I might even welcome this kind of challenge, although I can't imagine she would make it. I'm not supposed to disparage the SCQ, but the agreement doesn't say anything about her married boyfriend. And what I said was in repsonse to DD5 asking me why I don't like POSOM. Does she expect me to lie? I won't.

So that's one of my fantasy responses: What do you expect me to say when DD5 asks me why I don't like POSOM? What do you expect me to say when DD5 asks me why you left our family? What do you expect me to say when DD5 tells me she doesn't want to go see you? What do you expect me to say when DD5 says she likes me better than you? What do you expect me to say when they start asking me whether you were seeing POSOM while we were still married? What do you expect me to say when they ask me whether or not you tried to save our marriage? What do you expect me to say when they ask me whether you lied to me? What do you expect me to say when they ask me whether you lied to them?

Whew. That was cathartic.

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Especially the drinking part!
Yeah, I think next time will be sans kiddos.

So, here's the email I have cooked up. She asked me again about the loan.

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They are ready to draw up the loan papers, and they should be ready for signature next week.

This is the last loan update you will get from me. The details are done—the rest of it can be handled through our lawyers. It is too painful for me to discuss with you on a day-to-day basis.

Also, please do not send me any more messages that can be construed as criticism of my parental decisions.

You are the only one who wants this divorce. It is not what I want. It is not what our children want. It is not what our families and friends want. It stems entirely from choices that you have made.

When I look at DS8 and DD5, for the life of me I can’t imagine why you would choose to cut your time with them in half, and I can’t see how I will ever forgive you for stealing half of their lives from me. To say nothing of the absurd lifestyle you have chosen for them to grow up in--DS8 and DD5 are the biggest victims of all.

Even now, it does not have to be this way. Even now, I would choose to recover our marriage if you would make that choice with me. I know that we would succeed, recreate a family in which DS8 and DD5 could thrive rather than adjust, and that the two of us could be happy with each other again.

Love is a choice, not a feeling.

I will continue to hold the door open for as long as I can.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/29/08 09:51 PM
It comes accross as begging. Man up and do a real plan B right now.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/29/08 11:23 PM
Thanks for your opinion.
That's what I am talking about, you have such a way with carrying your point and yet is respectful.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/30/08 12:20 AM
Thanks, Queenie. The respectful tone is all Jennifer--what she has coached me to do. She wouldn't approve of the angry stuff in the middle, but this is the last one of these I expect to send, so I'm taking some liberties.

My lawyer tells me they expect the draft MSA by the 15th of August. I want it sooner.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/30/08 02:29 AM
I dunno SD. I do like the middle part. I think you very subtly put her in her place. The last part though - feels a little pathetic to me too. I see what Jennifer is saying, but it does feel like begging. Maybe that isn't all bad though. And Lord knows that there is nothing else at this point that you can do. You might as well go out with one more try.

Man, this has been a long road for you SD. I get tired just reading your posts. You've GOT to be drained by now.

And quit calling POSPM a meannie. You know that he is kind and caring, and has a heart. (Where's the puke button?)

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/30/08 03:34 AM
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You might as well go out with one more try.
I'm not really trying anything. I have zero expectation that it will make any difference. There is zero hope attached to this. This is just using Jennifer's language on the way out. If anything, it's the putting her in her place comments that are inappropriate for this message.

My latest goal has been to make it to the divorce still being open to reconciliation. I want to be able to tell my kids that I fought until the end. I want the high ground.

It costs me nothing. If she laughs it off, what do I care? I fully expect it to vanish into nothingness.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/30/08 03:43 AM
Well, I guess I really don’t see the begging. I see a pretty standard Jennifer/MB “keep the door open” message. Unfortunately, and I suspect you will agree, the message whether it had been Silverback Gorilla chest pounding macho angry or not, will have the impact of a gentle summer morning mist vs. the afternoon July summer sun. The receiver of the message does not have the equipment, desire or sophistication to understand it.

My battle was as a ship unexpectedly struck by an Exocet missile and somehow surviving. You and SL have fought the equivalent of the Battle of Verdun and the casualties have been very, very high. But, all battles must and do end. It’s time to end this one. You have done everything anyone could do.

But I do know this. Your daughter and son adore you. You are their hero. I was there. I saw it. I understand you want your kids to have a good relationship with your STBXWW and it will be nice if that happens. However, you have no control over this. SL, Cowgirl, BC have no control. I have no control and Wayzilla has all but destroyed her relationship with DD20 for potentially many, many years. It’s not our burden to carry any more.


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My lawyer tells me they expect the draft MSA by the 15th of August. I want it sooner.

I hope it is.

It’s time to end the war and start building a real future again.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/30/08 05:44 AM
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Well, I guess I really don’t see the begging. I see a pretty standard Jennifer/MB “keep the door open” message. Unfortunately, and I suspect you will agree, the message whether it had been Silverback Gorilla chest pounding macho angry or not, will have the impact of a gentle summer morning mist vs. the afternoon July summer sun. The receiver of the message does not have the equipment, desire or sophistication to understand it.

What you said, amigo.

Sure, I could tear her a new one. I could make her feel really small, and she would deserve it. But she already IS small. Why should I pile on? To make myself feel better? I'm bigger than that. I KNOW who I am. You can't unsay things. I don't know what's going to happen a year from now.

Sending that (and I already sent it) won't affect my day to day life. Just because I said I'm going to try to hold the door open doesn't mean that I'm going to sit around pining for the SCQ. I'm not. No way. I felt great all day, including my trip home after I sent the email. I stopped in to the Whole Foods store on the way home, and it was full of attractive women without rings. The divorce won't come soon enough.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/30/08 05:47 AM
SD,

Question - What's the reason for the reply?

Really?

THE reason?

If it's to end the updates to the 'loan' issue, then state that this is your last update, tell her to go thru the lawyers and leave it.

If it's to put her in her place on things,,,leave the middle part.

If it's to leave the door open, then you may want to re-work some of the other parts.

So, that's why I'm asking.

We all, including YOU know that none of this is going to impact the fog in which she is lost. We all know she's just going to use it to justify her own actions.

You said you want to be able to tell your kids that you fought to the end. You can already tell them that, because you have. Personally, I think it would be more impactful to walk up to her in the hallway at court, take her hand, look her in the eye, and tell her that one last time that it doesn't have to be this way.

To me, your email, while 'leaving the door open', is more about pointing out that it's HER choice to screw everything up. Which, of course it is. That's a fact. As Chris says, she lacks the capacity to understand that. She will only take it as bitter and vindictive,,,,and will twist it to her evil wayward view.

If you are Ok with that, then it's your choice. Just had to throw in my 2 cents.

My bigger concern is how this is all making you feel & how it is impacting your overall well being. Will this give you some relief? Then do it!! Will this tighten up those shoulders around your ears? Then don't.

Take care of you!
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/30/08 06:28 AM
Hi SD!

Hope you don't mind my throwing in my two cents...

SD, You must speak the truth to your children.

You did not do anything wrong.

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Also, please do not send me any more messages that can be construed as criticism of my parental decisions.

I wouldn't bother replying to her ridiculous message earlier.

It would just add validity to it.

No judge in the world will say you need to talk nice about HIM.

What you think/say of/about POSOM is none of her business.

Quote
You are the only one who wants this divorce. It is not what I want. It is not what our children want. It is not what our families and friends want. It stems entirely from choices that you have made.

What if you just said, " I don't want this D."? Wouldn't that communicate the open door?


Quote
When I look at DS8 and DD5, for the life of me I can’t imagine why you would choose to cut your time with them in half, and I can’t see how I will ever forgive you for stealing half of their lives from me. To say nothing of the absurd lifestyle you have chosen for them to grow up in--DS8 and DD5 are the biggest victims of all.

THIS is such a great point!

But, not one to make if you want to leave the door ajar.

Quote
Love is a choice, not a feeling.

educating

Sleep on it tonight.

And see what you think in the AM.

You're a good man, SD.











Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/30/08 11:38 AM
I dunno SD.. I can see the point that a lot of people are trying to make, and maybe it's a result of my WW sharing some of the same traits as the SCQ in that the only communication I get from her is nagging or criticisms these days.. which, like you, I largely ignore.

On the other hand, these comments are respectful, but also convey your true feelings. You're stating YOUR truth.. ultimately it really doesn't matter that the email is going to do little more than basically impact the surface of an already shallow target.

If nothing else, it may give her pause before she sends another one of her pot shots in your direction.

I'll update my thread with the weekend update and I'm sure you'll identify well with WW's recent attempt to ruin an otherwise wonderful day out with the kids.. it's like they can't stand the fact that life is going on, and going WELL without them.

In the end though, you and I, and the rest of the amigos all know how to handle it.. acknowledge how it makes you feel, cope with that, and get back to NOW.

Like it was said before, you're in the stadium lap on this marathon bro.. here's hoping that for YOU, it ends up feeling like a victory lap.
A little gerbil-lunging never hurt anybody.

Look, you have come a long way with the gerbil-lunging stuff. I don't see any reason, at this point, to pick apart your email and tell you where you went wrong, according to me. I don't think you went WRONG at all, just outside the bounds of MB a bit. You've been at this long enough to know what kind of reception that email will get.

In my case, I'm not trying to hold onto my love for Waffling Zombie anymore. I suppose I just don't have the desire to go thru another attempt at recovery right now. It's done. You, on the other hand, have not had the false recoveries, so maybe you can lock that love away somewhere for the future, even if it's only for a parenting friendship, after POSOM makes his exit.

Hang in there, SD.
Quote
it's like they can't stand the fact that life is going on, and going WELL without them.
Hurt people, hurt people.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/30/08 01:43 PM
SD:

You have never been in a true dark Plan B.

So, you answering her stupid email is within reason.

Three steps in that one:

1. Info part: No more Loan info.
2. Its HER fault.
2. WE can fix this.

Nothing wrong with that construction.

Heck, I might even propose that you send a verbatium taxt of WHAT you told DD5.

You have it here about 5 pages back.

But, like Chrisner says, she wouldn't understand anyway. She would just she it like she has anyway, you beating up on her BF. And exposing the hypocrisy of her position to her children.

Lets us know of the fireworks that your email creates.

I could probably see them from here....

LG
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/30/08 03:36 PM
Quote
Lets us know of the fireworks that your email creates.

I could probably see them from here....

LG

Yeah.....probably best to put on the old Alamogordo shades about now.


LG - When I was a kid I had a color poster of the Iowa in full broadsides. You can see in the ship's wake that it is being pushed sideways 30-40 feet.

It hung right next to my Easy Rider (Fonda, Hopper, Nicholson) poster.

Oh yeah, and I once participated in an alternate history wargame where the Iowa and Bismarck with escort took on the Yamato with escort. What a bloodbath!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/30/08 07:50 PM
Wow, lots of great comments (as usual). Thanks to all.

Quote
What's the reason for the reply?
Yeah, I asked myself this one, too. And you're right, it's not strictly MB, and if it's not going to be strictly MB, why do it?

Quote
You have never been in a true dark Plan B.

So, you answering her stupid email is within reason.

Three steps in that one:

1. Info part: No more Loan info.
2. Its HER fault.
2. WE can fix this.

Nothing wrong with that construction.
I'm glad you read it that way, because that's the way I wrote it. It's multi-functional, and also addresses the

Quote
I wouldn't bother replying to her ridiculous message earlier.
It's not the first time she's annoyed me this way (cf. sippy cups), but I don't think I've ever responded. I thought it fair to warn her not to do it again.

I thought about including the exchange with DD5--I could write the whole thing out in such detail as to make her feel very defensive and small, but it felt like piling on. It wouldn't penetrate, anyway.

Quote
educating
Marsh, I love it when you drop in (you, too, LG). I know it's educating, but that's okay with me. Like I said, it's not strictly MB. I think I know what Jennifer would want me to say here, and I think I could go through this email and deconstruct it the same way you guys have, but I think it says what I want it to say. And it accurately reflects how I feel. I wonder what Schoolbus would say about it.

Quote
On the other hand, these comments are respectful, but also convey your true feelings. You're stating YOUR truth.. ultimately it really doesn't matter that the email is going to do little more than basically impact the surface of an already shallow target.
Yep.

Quote
A little gerbil-lunging never hurt anybody.
I guess I don't even see this as gerbil-lunging because I know there is zero chance she will respond to the "begging" part. For me, this email feels like "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

I have moved from the "seeking reconciliation" phase to the "open to reconciliation phase," as James coined it. I think I called it Done For Now. How long does the door stay open? I don't know, but I'm no longer doing anything to hold it open.

Quote
My bigger concern is how this is all making you feel & how it is impacting your overall well being.
I feel really good again today. Alive. I think this let me work in some of the things I would have said in a Plan FU without actually going Plan FU.

Quote
Lets us know of the fireworks that your email creates.

Yeah.....probably best to put on the old Alamogordo shades about now.
You know what? I predict a fizzle. She's very passive. It took her a full week to work up a response to the POSOM is mean comment.

I sent the email late afternoon yesterday and haven't heard a peep. Today the kids have swimming lessons, which she takes them to even though it's my day (she signed them up at the university, where she works and can park, so she takes them), and she will have to bring them to me at work, which means a face-to-face transfer, which means some kind of communication, but I haven't heard anything yet.

I guess we'll see.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/30/08 11:05 PM
SD,

Quote
I feel really good again today. Alive. I think this let me work in some of the things I would have said in a Plan FU without actually going Plan FU.

Then it was a good thing to write and send. End of story in my book.

Well, unless those fireworks start up after a brief intermission.

I'll see if James is around to bring the popcorn for the show. I have a bottle of champagne in the fridge all ready to go.

Seriously,,,good for you if it's been helpful.

{{SD}}
Posted By: schoolbus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/30/08 11:41 PM
SD,

I wouldn't have sent that email. Sorry I'm late to the party.

Oh well.


The email won't do any good. From reading her emails, I can tell you where your WW is right now.

She believes she is completely entitled to what she is doing. She has the belief and mindset that what she is doing is "FOR ME!" and that if she is not happy, then she will not be good for anyone else, including the children.

She is chastising you for telling the children the truth, because the one thing she cannot stand to hear is the absolute truth coming back at her from their mouths. She knows it when she hears it, and will fight those truthful words from them for everything she is worth. The unfortunate thing that I see in what she writes is that she has no intention of changing her mindset - it is "me, me, me", and it can be seen in her attitude toward the money.

You see, in the emails that go back and forth between the two of you, her focus is money. Not kids, not what is happening in their lives, not missing them, not checking in on them. It is singularly money. Her focus is NOT protecting the children in her rather lengthy chastisment of you, either. Take a real close read of that email.

Look very closely at who is being defended in that email. It is NOT the children.

It is POSOM.

She defends POSOM in the email first, and to a lesser degree her own "privacy" (the sentence discussing keeping "others" out of her life). The focus of the email superficially is to chastise you, right?

Sort of. That is how it is supposed to come off. Under the surface you find GLARING defense of POSOM. Let's look.

She defends him to the child - read the sentence where she discusses how the child talked about POSOM being "mean". Now, imagine the conversation she had with the child, and her anger level. The paragraph here is about her anger about POSOM being called MEAN, and not about the child being dragged in between the two of you. Don't mistake the two problems.

Then, she goes on to talk about the issue of the house, and POSOM having thrown his wife into the street. Again, imagine the conversation with the child, and how she must have had to explain POSOM's behavior, and her own, and the inner goings-on about the affair and divorce, etc., and POSOM's crumbling marriage, too. She is angry about having to defend POSOM to the child, and is now defending him to YOU. This, again, is NOT about keeping the kids out of anything.

Further, she goes on about keeping people (others) out of her life and activities. She doesn't want people to know details of what has happened, or what is really going on. She is worried and upset that you might be in contact with POSOM's wife. (She has, BTW, tipped her hand here. Use this to your advantage.) There are obviously ugly things that she does not want publicized, and perhaps some violence between OM and OM's W? Things don't look good, and she is hiding things from you, the kids, and others. And this sentence is where she defends herself and her lifestyle choice - her "privacy".

The chastising is done for the specific purpose of making it appear that she is a much more concerned parent than you are, and of course to attempt to build a paper trail for court. She is trying to show that you are saying things that are destructive to her relationship with the kids, and that she has TRIED TO WARN YOU. In reality, she's trying also to build herself up to look better than you. But she protests too much, and comes off looking very controlling. And witchy.

As for the email exchange regarding the loan. IMHO, she is having money problems, and POSOM is, too. They are relying very heavily on this money - probably because the house that he just threw his W out of costs more than the two who are in la-la-land planned on. See, the fog makes budgeting that much harder. Idiots.


SB
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/30/08 11:55 PM
Thanks, Schoolbus. I think you are spot-on with that assessment, although I confess I only read her email a couple of times before deleting it. She is so far gone it's easy to dismiss it as Fog-laced Venom, but I welcome the insights.

I guess I was also curious as to whether anything jumped out at you from the email I sent her. Kind of an introspective question. Maybe it's not a good idea--is this the equivalent of asking BrambleRose for an assessment of how you're doing?

As always, your insights are appreciated.

At noon I got a TM from her saying she would drop the kids off at my work after their swim lesson. Should be about a half hour or so. I will be jovial (to the kids).
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/31/08 12:12 AM
Quote
There are obviously ugly things that she does not want publicized, and perhaps some violence between OM and OM's W?

It's hard to know what to believe here. WW has always painted OMW as a bipolar nut job, but whenever I have talked with her on the phone she seems sane. Or as sane as someone can be dealing with an actively wayward spouse without the protection of Plan B.

It's possible that she really is unbalanced and is on the upswing when she talks with me. It's also possible that she has been unfairly characterized as unbalanced in order for POSOM to get a better divorce settlement. I don't know which the reality is, but I tend to think it's the latter, and that POSOM is really an evil [censored].

I don't even want type out what I know about them (OMW won't get any alimony, maybe as part of the agreement to get some custody of her children back?)--what I've heard and what I'm afraid of. It will make me want to get more info and try to help, and I don't think it's what I should be doing. The OMW left me a VM a month ago or so, but I never returned her call for the sake of my own mental health.

The SCQ will be getting a large check very soon. It's entirely likely that she will flush it all down the infidelity toilet, but there really isn't anything I can do about it.



Posted By: schoolbus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/31/08 12:38 AM
SD,

Here's my analysis of your email to SCQ. What I think you are thinking is in red. I want to add I have not kept up with your thread, and have only read the last few pages of it in order to get the gist of her emails to you, so I could see what the communications have been lately. I purposely did not read anything other than her emails, so that I could not color my analyses. This analysis is based solely on your emails to and from her, and this one in particular. It is important to know this, so that you understand that what I write is a look at what your feelings are UNDERNEATH what you have written.

It may expose things about you which you do not want exposed, or which you may wish to further explore. I apologize in advance if the analysis hurts you in any way. I'm doing the best I can with limited samples from you, so here goes. If it seems WAY off, then, I'm WRONG! Sometimes that happens.



They are ready to draw up the loan papers, and they should be ready for signature next week. I find it interesting that you give no greeting. You just jump in without an opening sentence, or anything. That usually indicates anger, withdrawal, or tension. In this case, likely all three. I believe in your case you are likely moving toward completely withdrawing from your wife. The lack of greeting shows exasperation.

This is the last loan update you will get from me. The details are done—the rest of it can be handled through our lawyers. Straightforward, communicates fact.

It is too painful for me to discuss with you on a day-to-day basis. This is an attempt to get her to understand the pain that she has caused you. I believe you have likely said this in other communications in one way or another, as it is presented out of context in this paragraph and rather suddenly in the flow of information. You jumped right in with it, and the change to the "feelings" from the very rigid and factual two opening sentences is quite a change in direction. This is where the truth of the email presents itself. In reality, the truth of the message is that you just are too pained overall to talk to her day-to-day at all.

Also, please do not send me any more messages that can be construed as criticism of my parental decisions. Now, you are punching back about the previous email. Which bothered you and you said you were going to ignore. But it hurts you when she criticizes you - because you still chase her approval. So when she pushes that button, you push back, taking the bait. This sentence should not look so good now, and I apologize for having to tell you this - after the email was sent. She will not listen to the sentence, and she now has confirmation of the weakness in you and will continue to punch at the bruise.

You are the only one who wants this divorce. It is not what I want. It is not what our children want. It is not what our families and friends want. It stems entirely from choices that you have made. Here you reiterate what you have said before, and you reach out to her. The change in feelings from anger in the last paragraph to a sense that you are wanting to reach out to her is not carried off here. You missed the mark. While your thoughts might be that you wanted to try to reach out, your cadence and tone here are accusatory. There is a repetition of what others want, and emphasis on her being at fault by poor choices. Again, anger shows, and the tension is rising in the email through this paragraph.

When I look at DS8 and DD5, for the life of me I can’t imagine why you would choose to cut your time with them in half,
You became judgmental here, and the anger rises
and I can’t see how I will ever forgive you for stealing half of their lives from me. and now, you are at full-blown anger, telling her she has stolen from you. Lovebusters here. What I read in this email now is the true anger and distance you feel from her, that you do not know if you can forgive her. I see you withdrawing from you wife, as I noted above - right at the very first sentence, and I hadn't even read this part yet. Your withdrawal from your wife is now exposed, and if you want to save any love for her, I think you should stop corresponding with her altogether.

To say nothing of the absurd lifestyle you have chosen for them to grow up in--DS8 and DD5 are the biggest victims of all. And you finish the LB.

Even now, it does not have to be this way. Even now, I would choose to recover our marriage if you would make that choice with me. I know that we would succeed, recreate a family in which DS8 and DD5 could thrive rather than adjust, and that the two of us could be happy with each other again. Wait a minute. You just told her you didn't know if you could forgive her. Yet, now you change the feelings again? Nope. Because you ERASE THIS paragraph...... watch for it.////

Love is a choice, not a feeling.

I will continue to hold the door open for as long as I can.
You erased it, right here. Where you wrote "for as long as I can". See, you qualified your statement. That clause erased the first part of the sentence, because it exposed your underlying thought, which is that you are moving toward withdrawal. That you are angry, exasperated, and losing your love. And the email shows it.



So that is why I would not have sent the email.

And why you absolutely need to go very very very very DARK right now, if you expect to hold on to any love for her.


SB
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/31/08 02:27 AM
Thanks, SB. That's pretty much what I thought as well. It's possible that some part of me wants to burn up whatever love is left.

Anyway, here's the reply I got from the SCQ:

Quote
You can get off your high horse.

If you continue to talk to the children inappropriately you may have even less time with your children because you will be in violation of family mediation document and the MSA.
I ignore this, right?

She has no chance of being able to enforce this. The language in the mediation document only refers to negative comments about HER, and I have not made negative comments about her. I would even be willing to defend what I HAVE said about POSOM, but there's no point in getting mixed up with the SCQ over this, right?

I think it just shows that I made her angry, and she's trying to get back at me by threatening what I value the most.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/31/08 03:22 AM
Hey Schoolbus, that was amazing work! Exactly what I thought too…uhhhh…ummmm…..right after I finished reading your post.

Well SD, (taking off Alamogordo shades) that went over like a fart in the airlock.

“Hi. Can you say narcissist? Sure. I knew you could.”

Dude. She is Her Royal Highness the Sippy Cup Queen. You just got fired as the Court Jester. Schoolbus is right. She only thinks of herself now. The kids are behind POSOM and the money. POSOM is behind the money. She is now the star of Margret Mitchell’s lesser known work, Gone for Good.


Quote
I ignore this, right?
Yep


Quote
She has no chance of being able to enforce this.
Nope


Quote
but there's no point in getting mixed up with the SCQ over this, right?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO POINT AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!

Total darkness now. Nothing else will help. You did all Jennifer advised. Save yourself from this madness. Please.

A better life waits for you.

Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/31/08 03:40 AM
SD,

Sorry to say, but I don't think I like the SCQ much at all....
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/31/08 07:43 AM
No argument, CL. The SCQ is a very bad person.

So, just to follow up, SB, I think your analysis is pretty accurate. I don't think Jennifer would be very proud of me--the MB part of it is really half-hearted, and it lets lots of anger and DJ come through. I knew this as I constructed it. I think it included as much of a Plan FU as I was going to allow myself.

And I just don't care what she thinks anymore.

So that's my one quibble with your analysis. I don't see myself as chasing her approval anymore. I'm tired of wondering what kind of crap is going to be waiting for me in my email in-box. The line about parental decisions was fair warning to her that if she annoys me that way again I'm going to unload on her, or revoke her email priveledges, or re-insert an intermediary, or do something else that she won't like.

When I went out to the street to receive the kids, my friend's wife was there waiting for him, and I started chatting with her as the SCQ drove up. The SCQ has never liked this woman, but the kids do. I greeted the kids warmly, and they transitioned from talking to me to talking to my friend's wife easily. The SCQ handed over the kids' things and drove away without a word. If she told them goodbye, I didn't hear it.

Yeah, I guess I'm still a bit angry.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/31/08 12:01 PM
Wow.. I think we've hit a nerve..

I dunno SD.. she seems to be going out of her way here to be nasty to you.

My gut check reaction is that none of this exchange is in any way benefiting the children.. and that's really all you have in common with this woman anymore.

I agree with the others, that if you even want to hang on to the 'open to reconcilliation' bit of this.. which I've come to believe is basically a tenuous grasp until the D is over.. so that I can have the comfort of looking myself in the mirror or my children in the eye and saying 'I did all I could, and kept the door open until the very end..'

Darkness is the answer.. pitch black

It's for your sanity too bro.. I think if you give yourself some distance from this, you'll look back and see that it was only temporary relief.. from the time you sent it until the time she gave her response.. she's ALWAYS going to want to get the last word and the best dig in.. her resorting to threats against your time with the children show her desperation and scream in big bold letters to me: STOP IT... and I don't think it's entirely about POSOM.. I think she wants desperately for you to stop being the better person here and is throwing out this kind of language to bait you..

Either way.. she wins this round as you either cut off communication at this point (the best response), or you engage her in what GreyCloud refers to as my snake feeding sessions... either way, you lose... how much you lose depends on you, and I think you're headed in the right direction.

It's a $hit deal from beginning to end.. and I wouldn't expect her to help matters any until POSOM is ultimately out of the picture.. we believe it will happen eventually.. but I think the ones here that are closest to you.. particularly Chrisner can see pretty clearly that by then, you'll have moved on and up.

It's not a totally unseaworthy boat to be in, and in kind of a sad way, I'm glad to have some company on this ship.

Wow, Schoolbus.

Guy Smiley, not much to add. The others have covered it.

It is interesting to ready SB's analysis and literally see our conflicting emotions that change from moment to moment, sentence to sentence.

It's the head and heart getting in sync. Sometimes, like a clock, we get bumped and our pendulum is knocked out of rhythm.

Fox
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/31/08 02:16 PM
Good post James. You really nailed it here. She does seem to be going out of her way to be nasty and also to get the last word and 1-up him. I think it's the sign of a person who knows that they have made a huge mistake and will go to any length to try and defend/justify it. I see the Karma bus coming, and is it ever a big one. This one is really a tractor trailer.

SD, I agree - pitch black. I can see that this has just about drained you totally to the point where you are going to become forever bitter if you don't remove yourself from this vile game of hers. You ARE the better person here, and she will see it at some point.

(((SD))))
Quote
If you continue to talk to the children inappropriately you may have even less time with your children because you will be in violation of family mediation document and the MSA.

The key word here is "Agreement" as in Marital Separation "Agreement" and the mediation document (which was derived by "agreement" between the parties.) She's blowing smoke. The only way she could "enforce" anything is if she went all out and filed a motion with the Court to enforce your alleged breech of the "agreement(s)" in place. That cost $$ and I don't think she's willing to take it that far.

I agree with everyone else. Ignore her smoke and go dark. No response will probably be more effective than trying to talk "REASON" to the "UNREASONABLE".
Posted By: schoolbus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 07/31/08 06:45 PM
SD,

I think it is interesting that you chose the specific word "quibble" when you wanted to disagree about chasing your WW's approval. That means you agree somewhat......hmmmm....I kind of see that as something you should probably look closer at within yourself.

And then your post regarding how your WW watched you talking with the other lady, how your WW disapproves of the other lady...think about it.

I'm just saying.


I agree that your wife is not going to change her mind. Her emails show that her mind is made up. I don't see a movement away from her current position, which is that she is in this for herself (I want to be happy, I have MY life, I have my activities, nobody has a right to know), in it for the money (when are you getting the loan, is the money coming directly to ME, is it going to escrow first, how long is this going to take), and desperately defending the poor choice (which she certainly KNOWS is a poor choice, because she is trying to hide something that has recently occurred with OM's W).

So, what's your next move? That seems to be the question of the day.

I see that so far, you have not used a true Plan B.

And "it's not working for you".

I wouldn't have called your email a Plan FU. Too cushy.

SB
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/01/08 05:57 AM
All day I kept thinking that I would post after the kids went to bed. Now the kids are asleep, and it was all I could do not to fall asleep with them. I'm too tired to write a good post acknowledging everyone's advice.

James had an excellent post. It was very well stated and spot-on. SB with more good stuff to think about (SB, BrambleRose called you brilliant in a side email to me)--once again I feel priviledged to have you posting to me. CL and Fox and Chrisner telling me to go dark, which I'm going to do. And PM with solid advice about the SCQ's empty threats.

I agree that her threats are empty, which made it that much easier to dismiss her response. I let her have the last word and ignored it (this time), and went on to have a pretty good day. Work was productive and busy.

More thoughts tomorrow, I think. Must sleep now.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/01/08 11:04 AM
SD,

Hope you had some good rest last night. Interactions with SCQ like this are very draining and it's not suprising if it takes a toll on you for a few days.

Take some extra care of yourself the next few days.

{{{SD}}}
What up, sdguy?


Fox (can you tell I have teenagers?)
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/01/08 11:46 PM
I'm good, Fox. Thanks for asking.

Tired again today, and yes, Bugs, these things are draining, but I still feel very good.

Yesterday the kids asked me to take them to the swimming lesson, so I did. As we were on the way home, whom should we pull up next to but the SCQ (mercifully, she was alone in the car). The kids saw her and waved, the kids got excited about seeing her, and then were excited when she was following us, and wanted to give her a hug if she followed us all the way, which of course she didn't. DD5 started to cry as she put it all together (again)--that the SCQ doesn't want to live with us and that things are not the way she wants them. Sigh.

Quote
when you wanted to disagree about chasing your WW's approval. That means you agree somewhat......hmmmm....I kind of see that as something you should probably look closer at within yourself.

Yeah. Some introspection there. I still want to be a family; I want to be in love with my kids' mother, and I want their mother to be in love with me. This is still what I want. I don't know how to not want this or that I would change it if I could. Thus, there are still things that I want from the SCQ regardless of me knowing it's not going to happen.

On a deep level, I would desperately love for her to apologize. I want her to admit that I am right. I don't push these things or expect them or agonize over them, but I can admit that, on some level, I want them. Given our fifteen years together and the magnitude of the hurt she has caused, this is to be expected, I think.

I understand that she is an alien, however, and that there's no point in trying to get her approval, hence my taking exception to the chasing comment. I know that nothing I do will penetrate her reality until the affair has ended. I don't think I am doing this anymore.

Quote
So, what's your next move? That seems to be the question of the day.

I see that so far, you have not used a true Plan B.

It may not have been as black as night, but it was Jennifer-guided and approved, and it served its purpose. After 19 (count 'em) 19 months, I'm still open to reconciliation. I think it's safe to say that no one, but no one, wants to see me keep going with this.

Within a month, I should be divorced. At that point, I am going to look around and see what else is out there. If that results in me not being available if and when the SCQ pulls her head out of her [censored], so be it. I can live with that.

I don't think I said anything in The Email that precludes her returning--anything I might want to unsay someday, and too much of what was in it needed to be said. There is no one else to say it to her. I know it's not the MB way.

Anyway. Tonight my neighbor is having her 40th birthday party at the Del Mar race track, which should be great. Lots of people, and I'm sure most of the women will be betting based on what color scheme the horse/jockey is wearing. How lame. Everyone knows it's the name of the horse that makes all the difference. After the day's races, there's a band playing, so I'm looking forward to that.

It's the SCQ's long weekend, and I have nothing planned but rest and relaxation.

Wishing everyone (SB, SL, Fox, Bugsy, Chrisner, BC, LG, PM, James, Queenie, CL, lurking BR) a great weekend!
I totally agree on the horse's name. I bet on Risen Star in the Preakness Stakes when I was, oooooh, 14. I WON, or rather, Risen Star won ($11.43). BUUUUUUT, I have to say the Jockey's colors were pretty kewl.

Quote
It's the SCQ's long weekend, and I have nothing planned but rest and relaxation

I have nothing planned but lotsa work crazy
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/02/08 12:49 AM
Thanks SD, you have a wonderful weekend too. After 19 months of pure manure, you certainly deserve it. Take care of you.
Quote
After 19 months of pure manure, you certainly deserve it.

Hopefully, you mean a SHOWER, by "you certainly deserve it". That's a lot of manure. WHEWEEEEEE!!! (waving hand about in large sweeping motions)
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/02/08 03:12 AM
Well, I actually meant that he deserved a nice weekend, but a shower probably would be nice too. Heck, if I were where he is, I would skinny dip in the ocean. I live near a yucky river, so none of that here.....
Hey guy,

I've been busy the last few days, just wanted to stop in an let you know I'm keepin up, just not posting much.

The end is near, hang in there, you're doing really well despite the SCQ's best efforts.

You're gonna be alright amigo.

Have a good weekend
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/05/08 12:05 AM
Thanks, BC. Update:

I had a pretty good weekend. All the time to myself, and I was never bored, but I didn't exactly do much. And I felt a bit off all weekend. Like I was recovering. I couldn't quite bring myself to read the boards.

Friday night at the races was fun. I finished up $3.10 and had fun with the betting, so that was good. The music didn't really do anything for me, but it was fun watching people. I didn't stay out late, leaving with some of the other non-wild parents.

Saturday I saw the Dark Knight. Most excellent.

Sunday I went to the beach in the afternoon. The water is warm enough to get in without a wetsuit, so I played in the surf for a while. Watched people, too.

Tonight my parents get here for an extended visit, which should be good. Kids come back on Wednesday.

Yoga in a few. I need something, but I'm not sure what it is.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/05/08 04:15 AM
SD,

Quote
And I felt a bit off all weekend. Like I was recovering

Not at all surprising. I think it was exactly as you said,,,recovering. So often I do not realize the impact the emotional turmoil has on every part of me. In fact, my mom was just pointing it out to me this morning (apparently she & my sister's discussed this about me last week).

I'm glad your parents are coming in. You will enjoy the time, and perhaps have a bit of a break of being 24/7 full time dad when the kiddos are around. Not that you can't do it very well, but I think it's good to have times with the kiddos around AND that you get to relax a bit at the same time. KWIM?

I love that you do yoga! I'm thinking of taking some sort of exercise class this fall when Ladybug does her dance class,,,,perhpas there will be a yoga class available?!

Take care of you!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/08/08 07:28 PM
I really enjoy the yoga. It has made me much more aware of my body (and how much I abuse it by carrying around all this stress) and provides a nice mental break. A spot where everything else is left behind (except, perhaps, the cute girl stretching on the other side of the glass). I always feel better afterward.

Regarding abuse, every now and then health club brings in someone to do chair massage, so I signed up the other day. She had her hands on me for ten or fifteen seconds before saying "You're wearing your shoulders as earrings." I laughed. Her specialty is deep tissue work, so she proceeded to work over my shoulders (like, with her elbows) trying to loosen up the "boulders." I think if she had had access to a jackhammer, she would have used it on me.

Anyway. It's been a blissful period of no communication with the SCQ, but it's coming to an end. I signed all the papers for the loan yesterday, which wasn't especially triggering.

More relevant is that the kids are starting school. There is a school open house on the Friday before school starts. The SCQ has always gone to this, but it falls on my day with the kids this year. The first day of school falls on her day. DD5 starts kindergarden. This is a big deal for me--one of those things I don't want to miss.

The school called yesterday about the registration papers for DD5. The SCQ had the papers but needed info from me to be able to turn them in, so my mom did some intermediary discussion, which led to this email exchange:

SCQ: Your mother has the registration papers for DD5. You need to bring her birth certificate and proof of residence with you.

Your mom mentioned stuff about milk/lunch payment. That can probably be taken care of when the Friday before school stuff happens (and yes I will be going). DS8 doesn't need milk this year he should have enough to carry over. Lunch I don't have his carry over number unless they sent it to you. They will have it on the Friday to decide if he needs more or not. DD5 will need milk card half year at most and some lunch, half year or less.


SDG: If you want to take the kids to the open house on the 22nd, you can so long as you let me have them Sunday the 24th. I'm not going to miss both the open house and DD5's first day of kindergarden.


SCQ: I'll let you know. Who said you had to miss anything. You may choose to miss it but you don't have to.

And she's right. I'm the one choosing not to be around her. It once again makes me question whether it's worth it anymore putting effort into NOT being around her. Maybe I should just go to the friendly co-parent thing.

Or I could respond "Oh, so I can be at your apartment when she wakes up? To get her breakfast and help her with her backpack and calm her nerves as she's getting ready?"

DD5 has been talking about it more lately. Two nights ago, as we were going to sleep, she told me the next time I drop them off at the SCQ's I should ask her to come back home. I told her that I have and that the SCQ doesn't want to come home. The SCQ has apparently been telling her that the two of us "can't get along" and that she doesn't live at home because she is no longer my wife. I make these wooden puzzles, and I've been working on one for us (as opposed to giving it away), and DD5 says "You should make another one of these to give to Mommy."

Last night she told me that one of POSOM's daughters got a time-out for sticking her tongue out at the SCQ. Things must be going great.

I don't know what to tell them. I don't know what to do. I don't know what I want. Which is not to say that I don't feel pretty good. I do feel pretty good.

I guess I'll just keep trying to do whatever the next right thing is.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/08/08 08:37 PM
Quote
The first day of school falls on her day. DD5 starts kindergarden. This is a big deal for me--one of those things I don't want to miss.
I would go. You won't need to interact with SCQ. Bring a good camera. I took a picture of DD standing in the front yard on her first day of school and recreated the pic on her last day of high school.

You don't want to miss this.


Quote
Last night she told me that one of POSOM's daughters got a time-out for sticking her tongue out at the SCQ. Things must be going great.
The kid is a good judge of character. Give her another year or so and she will probably be flippin SCQ the bird. Then they will put her on double secret probation!
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/08/08 10:43 PM
SD,

I'm with Chris, don't let anything or anyone stop you from being there for that once in a lifetime moment.

You can handle ignoring SCQ.

Remember, you are better, stronger, faster - - oh wait, that's the Six Million Dollar Man. But hey, you still fit that same description, PLUS more!!
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/08/08 11:10 PM
I'm with Chris and Bugs..

I'd just go and pretend the SCQ wasn't there..

I know it's a little triggering her telling DD that you can't get along.. well.. DD will figure out on her own sooner or later that it wasn't your choice.. it was hers.

Until then.. just be THE GUY smile

You are that guy you know.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/12/08 12:30 AM
I haven't heard anything from the SCQ, but you guys have convinced me to go to the first day of school whether or not I have the kids. I've had enough practice--I can certainly ignore the SCQ.

Over the past few days, I've been feeling a strong urge to start looking for Someone Else, which is usually a sign that something else is bothering me. Not sure what it is. Maybe residuals from the contact.

Previously, I have recommended to other people that when they start to get distracted by thoughts about their WS, that they should take this as a sign that their life isn't full enough and then do something about it. I'm not sure whether that advice works for me or not given that it's not really thoughts about the SCQ that are distracting me.

I recognize that this has been a very disjointed post, even for a Monday, but mostly what I wanted to do was get one of these on my thread:

DD5 told me about POSOM's dogs last night.
puke
Posted By: believer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/12/08 12:40 AM
SDGuy - Our MB men always do just fine, so don't worry about finding someone else. They get snapped up like the treasures they are.

You have fought a good fight, been a good dad and will be happy again one day.
Honestly, there are times when I just miss the companionship of the opposite sex and all that entails. It had nothing to do with the Zombie AT ALL. It has to do with the desire for someone to share MY life with. Seems perfectly normal to me. sigh

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/12/08 05:41 AM
Gracias, mis amigas.

I guess it sounds like I'm connecting the longing with the SCQ, but I'm really not. I think it's better to be thinking about other people than stewing over the SCQ. It's just that I'm not divorced yet. Soon, I hope.

Man, I love that puking emoticon.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/12/08 11:39 AM

Quote
Honestly, there are times when I just miss the companionship of the opposite sex and all that entails. It had nothing to do with the Zombie AT ALL. It has to do with the desire for someone to share MY life with. Seems perfectly normal to me.

Exactly my thoughts, too. I was just explaining to Ladybug that 'dating' does not always equate to having a boyfriend. It's can be about having a nice evening. I told her that I like (and it's good) to be taken out for a nice evening, to be treated like a lady by a nice man. Her response was "Daddy used to do that for you." So, obviously I am not the only one that still has those thoughts!

SD, we are social creatures. We were created that way. I think it's totally normal to want to spend time one on one with another.

Patience,,,,yet another challenge in our path.

Hoping you have a great day!
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/12/08 12:15 PM
Man SD.. I totally feel where you're at.

Starting to think this band thing with me right now might not be the best idea. On one hand it's a huge release.. on the other hand, it will soon be putting me in close social contact with attractive women filling my admiration EN from the first word..

'That was a really great set..'
'I just love that bassline in the third song..'
'You guys.. blah blah blah'

Especially during those times where you're having thoughts of just how nice it would be to stand there with your arms around someone.. just to feel like SOMEONE was there that you can share the moment with.. I worry that it'll be far too easy for me to slip..

Maybe that I worry about it now will help prevent that.. but then again, I don't have the cute girl in the downward dog position either.. that's probably generating thoughts all its own though..

I know it's been longer for you, but it's been just shy of a year for me since DDay and last real contact with W before she transformed completely into WW.. It's not the longest stretch I've gone without a steady partner in my life.. but I can definitely say the longing for someone to share those moments with is highly increased.

Totally understand that those feelings and thoughts lead back to SCQ.. mine lead back to WW.. because it's the feelings that I shared with her that I miss.. I'm sure I can have those feelings with someone else.. but like you, I'm still married.. so it's natural to want to have them with W.. but for you and I both brother.. that woman doesn't exist on this planet right now. Maybe the aliens will return them to Terra Firma.. but we both know the importance of WHAT IS, and how to deal with that right?
Posted By: believer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/12/08 01:08 PM
Just remember to take your time - yeah, I know. Your spouse still has to crash and burn. For me, it happened less than 2 weeks after the divorce was final. Then it took him another 7 months to start coming around begging for another chance. By that time, I had another man.

And I'm old enough to be your grandmother. But available men were popping up all over the place.

Statistics say that you will be remarried within 3 years of the divorce, if that happens. So tread carefully and make good choices.
Posted By: why_us Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/12/08 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by believer
Just remember to take your time - yeah, I know. Your spouse still has to crash and burn. For me, it happened less than 2 weeks after the divorce was final. Then it took him another 7 months to start coming around begging for another chance. By that time, I had another man.

And I'm old enough to be your grandmother. But available men were popping up all over the place.

Statistics say that you will be remarried within 3 years of the divorce, if that happens. So tread carefully and make good choices.

I really liked the thought of available men popping up around believer. I want to have a loving man in my life so I am happy to have some hope for a possible future. Possible and probable although not preferable from my point of view. smirk

Thread carefully SD, none of us have a map or a manual for our lives but we may find amazing things if we explore them well.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/12/08 07:54 PM
Quote
just to feel like SOMEONE was there that you can share the moment with

I think it's totally normal to want to spend time one on one with another.

It has to do with the desire for someone to share MY life with.

Yes, yes, and yes. I think it has been at least three years since I had dinner with a woman who wanted to be there with me and was interested in me as a man. It is now painfully obvious to me how disengaged the SCQ was at the end and during our false recovery.

So, yeah, I would like to try this out again. I have heard from a, um, friend how intoxicating it is just to engage in witty banter on a date. What a concept.

Quote
So tread carefully and make good choices.
Yeah, this will be the hard part. I think it will be hard not to just rush into things, like the world whooshing into the vacuum that that part of my life has become. I think it's a good thing I'm not in a band, James. So far, I haven't faced a whole lot of temptation--most of my time is either around married friends and neighbors or married co-workers.

On another note, the loan funds today, so the SCQ and POSOM can start picking out furniture and china.

puke
I hope she marks thing with her name so when this all falls apart, she'll at least have her "stuff."

Yuck.

Quote
I have heard from a, um, friend how intoxicating it is just to engage in witty banter on a date. What a concept.

I won't say which, um, friend I think this is....but I'm sure he is right.

Been on one or two of those myself lately. It's quite an exhilerating feeling to be the cause of someone else's genuine smile and laughter - and to have it drawn out of yourself almost before you realize it happened.

It's a bit surprising.

Quote
So far, I haven't faced a whole lot of temptation

Downward dog yoga girl doesn't count? rotflmao

Seriously, though, you probably have developed a "bubble" around yourself without realizing it. Giving off the "not available" vibes, or staying away from places that hold the potential of meeting someone.

They'll be there......when you are ready.

Just " sigh"


Fox

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/12/08 08:13 PM
Quote
Downward dog yoga girl doesn't count?

She's usually stretching in some other part of the gym while I'm trying to concentrate on downward dog. If she were in the class doing down dog . . .

faint
But my classes are at work, and I don't really know her.

Yes, I need to remember to sigh
I actually went on a date Saturday night. It was with my Junior year Prom date that I ran into a few weeks ago. She's now a Doctor. I was praying for sparks, but there just wasn't any. I'm sure it looked like we were hitting it off, but it was really just two old friends laughing about high school and catching up on life after.

It still felt good to be in public with a woman having a good time. It sparks interest from other women and does wonders for your self confidence. I was getting looks from women all night. If I was there alone I wouldn't have been noticed at all.

We'll probably continue to get together from time to time, but I don't think either one of us has any intentions on going anywhere with it. We just have too much buddy history.

I'm also going to a singles social the diocese is putting on Thu night. I'm just hoping there's people my age there.

So it's really cool once you get past all the divorce garbage. Hang in there.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/12/08 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by Cowgirl
Been on one or two of those myself lately. It's quite an exhilerating feeling to be the cause of someone else's genuine smile and laughter - and to have it drawn out of yourself almost before you realize it happened.

It's a bit surprising.
Are there any naughty bits we need to hear? We like hearing about the naughty bits.


Originally Posted by Down Dog Boy faint
She's usually stretching in some other part of the gym while I'm trying to concentrate on downward dog.
How hard are you concentrating on keeping your dog down?


Originally Posted by The Ragin Cajun
So it's really cool once you get past all the divorce garbage. Hang in there.
So true BC.
Originally Posted by chrisner naughty
Are there any naughty bits we need to hear? We like hearing about the naughty bits.

I don't know what you are talking about. lashes


Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/12/08 08:52 PM
Just what I thought, no naughty bits.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/12/08 08:54 PM
Sheesh, and I was going to try to avoid the whole binder discussion.
lashes

Allright, that giant purple head thing just freaks me the he11 out




Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/12/08 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by Swamp Thing redflag
there's tons of jokes in that line, let me have it

Unfortunately, nothing the TOS can tolerate.
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/12/08 09:25 PM
could they toss the TOS for a couple of minutes?
Quote
lashes
Allright, that giant purple head thing just freaks me the he11 out

It's a GIANT PURPLE PEOPLE EATER!!! :MrEEk:
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/12/08 11:37 PM
Ok, I'm late AGAIN and working backwards -

Yes, FREAKED out by this lashes, too!

Naughty bits,,,,hmmm took me a few posts to figure out that wasn't a new dog treat or an item from the adult toy store! blush

Quote
So it's really cool once you get past all the divorce garbage. Hang in there.

There are definately cool things - but I have a feeling BC and I are thinking different things here!

Quote
Seriously, though, you probably have developed a "bubble" around yourself without realizing it. Giving off the "not available" vibes, or staying away from places that hold the potential of meeting someone

I was SO releaved to read this!! I gotta tell you guys, I haven't been asked out ONCE. Not ONCE. I know I'm not fugly so I was really starting to wonder just what the deal was! I'm going to take this statement as True, or I'll have to go back to worrying what is wrong with me!!

Quote
I have heard from a, um, friend how intoxicating it is just to engage in witty banter on a date. What a concept
I can hardly wait to find this one out for myself!

I guess what I'm saying SD is that you aren't alone. It's all good. Right thing will happen at the right time. Better than the wrong thing at the right time or the right thing at the wrong time or generally something going terribly arry and you end up in Vegas with a new spouse & no idea how you got there!! ha!!
Originally Posted by silentlucidity
Quote
lashes
Allright, that giant purple head thing just freaks me the he11 out

It's a GIANT PURPLE PEOPLE EATER!!! :MrEEk:

Now you're on the right track


FREAK!!!



Originally Posted by Fox
Seriously, though, you probably have developed a "bubble" around yourself without realizing it. Giving off the "not available" vibes, or staying away from places that hold the potential of meeting someone

Originally Posted by Bugsy
I was SO releaved to read this!! I gotta tell you guys, I haven't been asked out ONCE. Not ONCE. I know I'm not fugly so I was really starting to wonder just what the deal was! I'm going to take this statement as True, or I'll have to go back to worrying what is wrong with me!!

Don't ever worry about what is wrong with you! I think the BS continues life as it was prior to the A in terms of where they go, how they interact with others, and do not display 'open to a relationship' body language.

I work at the front desk at my office and there are times that I KNOW I shut down - especially if I think someone is attractive, becuase I'm not ready.

I will go through the necessary pleasantries and then look back at my computer and continue typing - closing them off.

They are not really given the opportunity to continue if they wanted to.

I don't really go to any social events, and any that do come about I either choose not to go because I don't have a spouse or DDs go with me. Bringing two teenagers who stick close with you, does not provide any opportunity either. KWIM?

And......I'm not sure I completely believe that you have NEVER been asked out. Exactly WHO is Mr. MCD?

/tj

Fox
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/13/08 07:09 PM
Yeah.. the bubble thing I can relate to..


The band thing makes it tough though to keep the persistent from wielding stickpins in my direction though..

Still.. I've been a good boy.. there's been nibbles on the hook but I'm not baiting..


Oh FFS.. if that isn't asking for it.. but best analogy I can come up with for the moment.


Bring it on.. I can take it.
so you're saying you're NOT a master baiter? skeptical
Originally Posted by secret cajun man cool
so you're saying you're NOT a master baiter?

I am surprised that men can get any work done; I'm scatterbrained, that's my excuse. :crosseyedcrazy:


Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/14/08 01:22 AM
My 0oh my!

Quote
Originally Posted By: secret cajun man so you're saying you're NOT a master baiter?

I am surprised that men can get any work done; I'm scatterbrained, that's my excuse.

Master baiter? Now that's funny, I don't care who ya are! I gave up giving reasons for not getting work done! ha!

tj/Fox - MCD is my large, good looking co-worker who came to Ladybugs softball game with me & who just sent her a concert t-shirt.

As far as the bubble or the shutting people out, I suppose you all are right. I'm not going to worry about it (for now).

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/14/08 02:41 AM
Thanks for the clarification, Bugs, but I think Fox's point was something along the lines of "are you sure that you weren't being asked out?" or "what makes you think you weren't asked out?" or the like.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/14/08 11:36 AM
Originally Posted by BetrayedCajun
so you're saying you're NOT a master baiter? skeptical


Well.. they say that 90% of men are.. and the rest are liars.

whistle dance2
Quote
Thanks for the clarification, Bugs, but I think Fox's point was something along the lines of "are you sure that you weren't being asked out?" or "what makes you think you weren't asked out?" or the like.

Exactly.

Bugs, do you have to be bit on the butt or something? Maybe you are just unaware of the SIGNS of someone being interested.

Not many have the confidence to walk up and tell you how attractive they think you are and ask you on a date.

It's subtle. Like a dance. dance2

A little more subtle than that, I think.

Right, guys? I think I'm right. Yeah, I'm right. Aren't I?
:2X4:


Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/14/08 09:13 PM
Quote
Not many have the confidence to walk up and tell you how attractive they think you are and ask you on a date.
Can you actually do that? That sounds kind of scary. I mean, what if she's got a boyfriend or is married or hates men or just isn't plain interested? Because then she would have to shoot you down, and there might be bad feelings about it, and no one wants that.

Safer to be all stealthy. Right?

Not that I've dated in the last 20 years, so what the hell do I know?
I sure in the heck couldn't do it.

There are times that it's good to be the woman. flirt

I know I couldn't handle all that pressure.


Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/15/08 04:53 PM
My lawyer tells me the draft MSA is in, so I will pick it up from him this afternoon. Something like 50 pages, he says. What a treat that will be to read.

My mom tells me she was talking with DS8 the other night about the separation versus divorce thing and commenting that soon the divorce would be complete. DS8 told her that he didn't think so, that we all have a plan that involves her coming home. Mom corrected him, but it's another conversation I need to have.

The reality, of course, is that the divorce being finalized won't make any difference for the kids. They've been living this way for a year and a half, but putting the divorce title on the whole thing is going to be a big blow for DS8, I'm afraid.

I've been meaning to find a counselor for him for over a year but haven't done it. As soon as I finish this, I'm going to do it.

sigh
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/15/08 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by SD
They've been living this way for a year and a half

That's over 30% of DD5's lifetime. She will probably have no memory of the family together in a couple years.


Originally Posted by SD
DS8 told her that he didn't think so, that we all have a plan that involves her coming home.

It looks like that is another conversation. Poor kid.

Quote
What a treat that will be to read.

Yep, they sure are. Read EVERY word.

Quote
Yep, they sure are. Read EVERY word.

Yep, at least TWICE.

Don't let her get away with any shenanigans!

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/15/08 05:15 PM
Who gets the autoclave and the talking TV?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/15/08 05:41 PM
She's had the talking TV for some time now. My first session of retail therapy was for a replacement.

I've still got the autoclave in the garage next to all my saws. I'll make sure it's covered in the settlement agreement, though. Might need it for SDGuy's Holistic Therapy Retreat and Shooting Range. Maybe to sterilize away any WS-remnants when we do cleanups of the range.
Originally Posted by chrisner
Who gets the autoclave and the talking TV?

What the heck are those?

Fox
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/15/08 05:55 PM
Oh and Guy.. I'm sure I don't have to remind you.. but make sure to be absolutely clear on who gets custody of the sippy cups.

autoclave aside.. I don't think we can just assume this..

And make twice certain your lawyer has copies for you of all of SCQ's domestic work instructions. Heavens know we guys are all hand tools and caulking guns around the house..


PULL!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/15/08 07:43 PM
Quote
Who gets the autoclave and the talking TV?
The autoclave is from the Sipply Cup Cleansing Exercise. The TV is a reference to the time I was trying to go to sleep and could hear the SCQ talking to POSOM on the cell phone downstairs (didn't even have the decency to pretend to go for walks anymore) and I went downstairs and told her I could hear her talking and she said "I was talking to the TV." I guess I should enter that in the list of all-time classic FogTalk responses.

Good suggestion on things to look for, James. I'm going to scour it to make sure she hasn't introduced any additional language on what can be said to the children.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/15/08 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by Alzheimer SD
I guess I should enter that in the list of all-time classic FogTalk responses.

You did that Dude. That's why I know about it. You are getting old.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/15/08 07:47 PM
Ouch.
The mind is a terrible thing to waste. OF course, I can't even remember what I had for breakfast.

Oh, wait, yes I can, it was Oatmeal.

Nevermind. YOu are getting old. stickout
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/21/08 06:43 AM
I've been feeling crappy for several days now for no particular reason, which makes me think it must be related to the MSA document. The document itself is fine--there are no surprises, but the fact that it is here. I think that I can tell myself all I want that I am ready to be divorced, but it is still Not What I Want.

I think I am again Fighting Against What Is, bringing on depression and making myself miserable. Or maybe I am only Really, Seriously Pissed Off About What Is. Not sure. Maybe it doesn't matter. I'm also acutely aware of something being missing.

DD5 is starting soccer. I didn't know the coach but told him via email that I could help him out at practices if he needed an extra hand. Then I found out that all the practices will be on Tuesdays, which is the SCQ's day, at which point I took back my offer (and explained why). I mentioned this to my day-care provider yesterday (I guess I put it terms of "and now I can't"), and it made her so sad that she pulled me aside today to talk about it.

I think she just wanted to encourage me to go to the practices if I wanted to--that I shouldn't feel like I couldn't go. And that's not how I feel--I am choosing not to go because I don't want to be near the SCQ, but this is a really stupid way to live. And an even stupider way to raise children.

So then I'm back to wondering what I was wondering the other day, whether I should just give up and try to be friendly to the SCQ, or at least cordial. Sometimes I think I could do that and that it would be easier, but at the moment I'm so full of anger and unsaid things that I don't think I could.

Then I get this email from the SCQ. At first, my response was white-hot anger and thinking that I would need to Xanax up for the night, but I've calmed down quite a bit. The last line is the most offensive.

Quote
The kindergarten parents only meeting is tomorrow 6:30-7:30p. I will be going which doesn't mean you cannot go. But if you cannot go I will give you any information they provide if you want.

If you get the phone call about how to access the kids classroom lists online can you please send me that information on Thursday night.

You can take the kids on Friday 10a to see their classrooms and sign them up for PTA, buy school shirts, milk and lunch sign up, and whatever else they need to sign up for. For the phone directory can you get a second one please or send a form with the kids for me to take care of. If something comes up and you cannot do this let me know. Let me know how much you spend on all this so that we can split the cost. It is fine if you want to subtract if it from child support for September.

I've purchased school supplies for DS8 to take to school based on the list that was provided at the end of 3rd grade.Don't know if you kept a copy of the list but it is suggested that he have a protractor and compass for homework this year.. The compass I have for him takes a regular pencil instead of adding special lead to the compass, JFYI. For DD5 I have some things her but since there isn't a list yet I was guessing (pencil box, pencils, markers, colored pencils) and only got a few things.

For the parents meeting on 8/28 5:30-7:30 I again will be going and that doesn't mean you cannot go. But if you cannot go I will give you any information they provide if you want.

For the first day of school I will take them but if you wanted to see them too we could meet near the school and depending on what they are planning on Monday for DD5 (I thought I saw something about parents/student meetings but we will probably find out tomorrow) you could take her to her class and I could walk with DS8 to the back for his.

I'm trying to be reasonable with this. We should be able to do things like this that involve our children.

I think that this is as reasonable as a WS can be. I'm interested in opinions. Especially yours, Schoolbus, in case you ever wander back onto my thread.

The last line makes me want to unload on her. puke

"Or what? You'll threaten to reduce my time with our children again?"

or

"We wouldn't have to worry about this kind of coordination if you weren't such a shallow, pathetic excuse for a mother."

Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/21/08 07:13 AM
hey SDGuy,
I used to keep up with your thread, but the farm is taking up my MB time smile

I just caught up as far as the sh*tty email from stbxww. I have an x and I remember it took me a couple of years after seperation for me to really be able to stand being around him. Dont know if that helps you or not, guess it all goes back to that time thing, as far as advice goes, it bites.

I never did get a chance to thank you for what you said to me when I started plan B. I didnt really want to hear it but it sunk in anyway. You did encourage me despite myself.

I also wanted to say that over the last 5 months, your thread has made me smile more than any other single thread.I have even laughed out loud occasionally. You really do have the gift of humour. When you feel the time is right to find someone, its something they will apprieciate. I have always thought a a sense of humour is a vastly underrated gift.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know I was thinking of you, and feeling for you.

lil
Quote
I've been feeling crappy for several days now for no particular reason

Me, too. grumble

I think I'll run away to Belize for awhile. pray

Or maybe not.

Quote
I think she just wanted to encourage me to go to the practices if I wanted to--that I shouldn't feel like I couldn't go. And that's not how I feel--I am choosing not to go because I don't want to be near the SCQ, but this is a really stupid way to live. And an even stupider way to raise children.

Yes, it is. But it isn't one that YOU have chosen.

I, personally, would go and enjoy it. To do otherwise takes away from the quality of your relationship with your child.

SCQ is wallpaper. You don't have to interact with wallpaper just because it hangs on the walls in the room you are in.

I would not be open to friendly co-parenting. Yes, it is the "easy" way. However, the easy way is not always the right way.

With such young kids and so much interaction necessary, IMHO, I would be tempted to co-parent in closer proximity than what has been happening.

I wouldn't email her back and forth, I wouldn't provide information from meetings, emails from school, etc, and I wouldn't ask for them from her.

You both know how to contact the school and make sure both names are given so information is sent to each of you.

WxH and I both get all information from the school. He knows when meetings are and if he does not attend, he does not get the information.

I would respond to the email only with facts. You don't need to tell her if you are attending meetings or not - you don't answer to her.


Originally Posted by SCQ
The kindergarten parents only meeting is tomorrow 6:30-7:30p. I will be going which doesn't mean you cannot go. But if you cannot go I will give you any information they provide if you want.

If you get the phone call about how to access the kids classroom lists online can you please send me that information on Thursday night.

You can take the kids on Friday 10a to see their classrooms and sign them up for PTA, buy school shirts, milk and lunch sign up, and whatever else they need to sign up for. For the phone directory can you get a second one please or send a form with the kids for me to take care of. If something comes up and you cannot do this let me know. Let me know how much you spend on all this so that we can split the cost. It is fine if you want to subtract if it from child support for September.

(sdguy, is Friday your day. Your response may vary if it is not your day and she is offering to give it to you. If it IS your day, don't respond. You are DAD, you can take care of this day without SCQ's guidance. If it is not your day and you would like to take them, tell her that you would like to take them and make arrangements to do so. DO NOT RESPOND TO THE REST OF THIS PARAGRAPH. You can each get your own information from the school. You take care of you and she can take care of herself.

I've purchased school supplies for DS8 to take to school based on the list that was provided at the end of 3rd grade.Don't know if you kept a copy of the list but it is suggested that he have a protractor and compass for homework this year.. The compass I have for him takes a regular pencil instead of adding special lead to the compass, JFYI. For DD5 I have some things her but since there isn't a list yet I was guessing (pencil box, pencils, markers, colored pencils) and only got a few things.

sdguy: No response necessary to this paragraph.

For the parents meeting on 8/28 5:30-7:30 I again will be going and that doesn't mean you cannot go. But if you cannot go I will give you any information they provide if you want.

Don't respond to this paragraph. Go to the meeting or get the information from somewhere else.

For the first day of school I will take them but if you wanted to see them too we could meet near the school and depending on what they are planning on Monday for DD5 (I thought I saw something about parents/student meetings but we will probably find out tomorrow) you could take her to her class and I could walk with DS8 to the back for his.

sdguy: Who's day is this? If your day, decline the offer. You are DAD and can handle this. If she wants to be involved she can show up. If it is not your day and you want to be there, make arrangements to do so. NO EMOTIONS.

I'm trying to be reasonable with this. We should be able to do things like this that involve our children.

sdguy: This is bait. Don't bite. naughty

My take in red.

I also know that it is hard to keep the rant2 reined in.

There are very few times now that I want to let the team of rant2 rant2 :twobyfour: rant2 rant2 :twobyfour: loose.

Stoopid waywards.

hugGuy Smiley hug


Fox
Howdy Guy,

Most of your WW's email is blahbetty blah blahing, trying to seem like she's playing nicey nice with her stbxh. No need to respond, unless, as Foxy has pointed out, the days she mentions are not your time with the kids.

As for the last line, it's just crap, ignore and vent as best you can. "Can't we all just get along?" :crosseyedcrazy:

"Um, hmmmm, well, I suppose you have a point and uh, well...

NOPE"

You get to decide when you talk to her, not the other way around. She cannot control you, just as you cannot control her, and it's prolly buggin the crap outta her. Whatev. Shake it off.

I hope you have a fantastic day, and I hope the first day of school for DD is GRRRRRREAT! WW isn't even wallpaper, IMO. She's invisible, like AIR.



Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/21/08 05:18 PM
That email could have been written verbatim by my exww.

But this is the new reality you're living. In SCQ's defense she is sending you a very logistical email.

The last line was unnecessary, but it is the truth.

That being said, I can understand your feeling of wanting to let her have it. You feel anger and may just be starting to feel anger from the anger phaze which is INTENSE.

You want to unload on her for simply talking in your general direction. You'll go through this phaze and may be stuck in it for a long time.

Once you accept, you'll see emails like this and you'll start thinking of SCQ as a business partner you don't like.

I'm still struggling, 2 years after the fact, with holding back on answering her emails which are full of entitlement and preaching and flat out just wrong and accusatory info.

She picks fights via email and I've been suckered into responding.

You must avoid this.

There comes a point where you flat out don't care anymore and you scan the emails you receive to filter out the garbage and focus on what is important.

What stinks is when she witholds info that you need to know for your kids.

That's a real problem but it's all the more reason why you need to get in contact with the daycare and schools yourself. Don't rely on her for info.

By all means, you should go to the kid's practices. You're there for the kids. Your ex will become wallpaper after some time and you won't care that she's there. You'll be able to focus on your kids.

But what you're feeling is totally normal. It just takes time to work your way through the stages of grief and you're certainly stuck in the anger phaze.

It will pass.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/21/08 06:00 PM
Go to every event of your kids you can. You can respectfully ignore her. Time goes by very fast and you should not miss any of their growing up. They grow up very fast. It's literally the "blink of an eye."

The divorce will be final very soon now and guess what? You will feel better very quickly after it is. There is a finality that comes with it. A weight will be lifted and many of the uncertainties gain obvious solutions.

Your on the stadium lap now. We will watch you finish.

Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/21/08 06:58 PM
Yup!

Go to every single one of their events that you can. Doesn't matter if you take them of she does. Go for your children. Ignore her. If you must speak, be civil.

This is not about the children!
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/21/08 08:13 PM
I agree SD. Your kids want you there, and they will remember that you were there. My WH was a coach, and I think it is something DD will remember always. He never missed a game, and I think that is special. Of course that was before he became an [censored].

(((SD))) I don't know how, but someday the waywards won't get under our skin as much as they do now. They'll just be gum on our shoes.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/22/08 12:09 AM
Thanks for all the great comments, and especially your very kind words, Lil.

Feeling better today, if somewhat tired. No response to the email yet. She seemed to want one, as she sent me a TM last night to let me know she had sent me email. Monday (the first day of school) is her day, so I will respond and let her know I want to see the kids in the morning.

Quote
sdguy: This is bait. Don't bite.
Thanks, kettle. Belize has sounded good to me for a long time. We could always. . . *looks around for the innappropriate joking police*

Quote
You want to unload on her for simply talking in your general direction.
YES! I think I would have said for "existing," but you captured it very well.

Quote
You must avoid this.
Yeah. It's one of those things I know, but I don't always adhere to the stuff I know. Ya know? Suckered. Like when she told me to get down off my high horse, and I thought "Yes, I'm sure you would love for me to get down in the gutter with you, but I'm not going to play."

You give really good advice, POM. Every now and then when I have a bit of extra energy I venture out onto other threads to see if I can help anyone else, but I frequenly find that "POM has things under control here."

And thanks for all the encouragement to attend the practices. DD5 brought up the practice to me a couple of times last night just as something to talk about. I know she would like it if I came.

Angry phase. That sounds about right.

Quote
We will watch you finish.
It's reassuring to know you guys are all with me.
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/22/08 01:37 AM
SD,

Quote
DD5 brought up the practice to me a couple of times last night just as something to talk about. I know she would like it if I came.

...this is the reason you would CHOOSE to go...

...tell me again, you are choosing NOT to go.....because????
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/22/08 04:19 AM
Thanks for the kind words, SD.

Now if you and some of the others here can help me with a few BHs here who have cheating wives and no kids I'd appreciate it.

They don't seem to understand the freedom they have in front of them and how many of us BHs here would have absolutely nothing to do with our exww'es if it wasn't for our kids.

Sorry for the threadjack. I could just use some support since I'm being painted as simply being bitter that I couldn't make things work in my marriage.

But, SD, you're in the anger phaze and will want to write long emails and preach and vent to your ex.

It's a sucker play that can come back to haunt you later. Trust me. My MB posts from my freshly hurt days have come out and a crapbag lawyer has tried to use them against me.

So be careful what you respond and how to your ex. Those things can come back and bite you later.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/22/08 11:48 AM
SD,

Go to the practices, the games, the events. Just go and to he77 with her. That was the mindset that worked for me with Ladybug this summer. I was there for HER and nothing else. It was HARD, especially at first, but it did get better. And, dare I say that it actually helped me a bit with getting my emotions under control?

Just like me, you will decide that you know that YOU are so much better than the person she is being that you have NOTHING to hide or be ashamed of, so you can put yourself out there and not be afraid, or angry or anything but Stronger in the long run! The confidence you will gain will be surprising and the potential for her to feel the SHAME that she SHOULD is greater than that.

I think it was SL that said, treat her like wallpaper. You will feel better and she will get the message loud and clear. No silly wayward acceptance from you.

The BEST part? It's your Kids that win the most from having you there. THAT is where your focus needs to be in this sitch - same with first day of school and any other event that comes up.

You have the strength, the power, and the Class to pull it off.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/22/08 09:26 PM
Busy morning. Dropped DD5 off at day care, then took DS8 to a dentist appointment. On the way back from the dentist (great appointment--hooray), DS8 spots the SCQ's car, only it wasn't being driven by the SCQ ("there were two people in it, and I'm pretty sure who they were"). Trigger. Breathe. Unclench.

Picked up DD5 and then off to the school open house. Determine classroom. Meet teachers. Meet some other classmates. Deal with lunch stuff (how much money to put on milk and lunch cards). Buy spirit clothing from PTA (shirt or sweatshirt, or both? what sizes?). Explain to teacher marital situation. Avoid SAHM (stay-at-home-moms)'s zooming around me at warp speed.

Now I'm exhausted.

I'm sure I forgot something (signing up for PTA?). It will be too bad if the SCQ doesn't like it.

POM, yes, I still have urges to write long emails to educate or otherwise make her feel the effects of her choices. I also know that I might as well chew out my door for being so opaque. A useful thing to do with that kind of stuff is to write it down. Write a letter that you don't send.

DD5 was telling me something last night about me going to all her baseball games, or maybe it was all her brother's baseball games, and I said "yes, and I'll come to all of your soccer games, too." She added "And practices." So, yeah, it's important to her. I'll go to some.

I got pretty good at ignoring the SCQ when she came to DS8's baseball games (except, perhaps, for the time she brought DD5 and DD5 spent most of the game with me while the SCQ text-messaged. Or the time she DIDN'T bring DD5 and I got to speculate whom she was with). I can certainly say I enjoyed more the games the SCQ didn't attend.
Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/22/08 09:52 PM
I agree with Pom. Take any opportunity to be with the kiddos. Treat the SCQ like she's not there.

My exhusband and I attend our kids things at the same time. For the record, I was the WW (now FWW) and we didn't recover our marriage. He absolutely still hates me despite my attempts to apologize etc (which is his right).

It's really difficult for me to attend these events. They are all mostly where we used to live- and ex's extended family are all usually there or some of what used to be our close friends.
None of them talk to me- unless it's my exfather in law. I can tell it pains him to do so but he will be slightly polite. That's his choice of course and I don't blame him.

If my husband now or my MIL do not attend with me- guess what? I'm sitting all by myself. Whoever has the kids that weekend gets them to events. At my sons football games if I have DD6 with me I sit on one end of the field and he sits at the other. I don't ever stop DD6 from going to give dad a hug and he always lets her come to my side of the stands to see me.

More than once I've sat in those stands and watched my best friend of over 11 years not even glance my way- with tears coming down my face that they cannot see. (I wish some WW's would be able to read this post and see what they can look forward to.)

It hurts SCQ now or at the very least one day it will. Don't let her fool you.

Don't let her keep you away from anything to do with the kiddos.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/22/08 10:18 PM
Wow, CW. Your post is moving. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

For the record, I am quick to forgive. Probably too quick. Just talking about how angry I am over the past couple of days has helped dissipate the anger. I can easily imagine a day where I have forgiven her, but I don't know how long it will take to get there or whether she will ever be able to ask for that forgiveness. (I recognize that this could easily set off a semantics discussion over what is forgiveness. There's a component of forgiveness that is for me and doesn't have anything to do with her asking for it. It might better be termed letting go of my anger.)

I feel a temptation to try to put your words in front of the SCQ somehow along with the idea that "it doesn't have to be this way." Stop cringing, all of you. I know that it would be like trying to teach my cat about nuclear magnetic resonance coupling constants.

Thanks again for stopping by. Thanks to cinders, too. It's always nice to get fresh perspectives.
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/22/08 10:25 PM
SD,

Quote
DD5 was telling me something last night about me going to all her baseball games, or maybe it was all her brother's baseball games, and I said "yes, and I'll come to all of your soccer games, too." She added "And practices." So, yeah, it's important to her. I'll go to some.

I am glad to hear this, SD. It will be one less thing to regret...later!

Quote
Wow, CW. Your post is moving. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

CW, I also want you to know that I appreciated your post... offering your insight as a FWS is probably not so easy, but know that it can be very helpful for some of us.

Quote
...I know that it would be like trying to teach my cat about nuclear magnetic resonance coupling constants.

.... rotflmao I see you're getting better at conserving your energy! rotflmao

Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/22/08 10:28 PM
Quote
I know that it would be like trying to teach my cat about nuclear magnetic resonance coupling constants.

Nuclei belonging to the same radical or to different radicals? Could make a difference to the cat.


CW, you post meant a lot to me as well. I am sure it was difficult to write that. I appreciated it very much.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/22/08 10:33 PM
Quote
Nuclei belonging to the same radical or to different radicals?
Quickest google in the West. But be careful, amigo. Teaching is in my blood. I could teach you about coupling constants.
Originally Posted by Quantum leap Guy
Quickest google in the West. But be careful, amigo. Teaching is in my blood. I could teach you about coupling constants.

I could use a good nap... sleep
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/22/08 11:42 PM
CW,

Wow. I hope your BH can forgive you someday and make things better for your kids.

Yes, you were a wayward. But you're a FWW and that F makes you golden in my book.

I'm sure that reading these forums must be painful at times since many of us, myself included, rant against waywards.

You're not in that category. You have earned your F and have my respect along with the other FWWes on this forum.

Your insight is very helpful.

T/J over.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/22/08 11:42 PM
Quote
I could use a good nap...
Obviously someone who remembers coupling constants from their O-Chem.

But you wouldn't nap when I teach them.
Oy! Why'd you have to bring up the big O (meanwhile, in a distant land of cajun food and beer, a young man's ears start BURNING with the innate desire to type something foul...)!

I would give you my fullest attention, Guy. I'm sure you could find some way to make it interesting. (again, the cajun's radar is going off)
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/23/08 12:33 AM
LOL. Yep, we have lit up the BC signal. I can just see him stirring. "Huh? What?"

I can hardly wait.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/23/08 02:18 AM
Sorry for the T/J, but CW - do you have a thread where we can read your story??

SD, you crack me up rotflmao

Man, I love these little critters. Bugs taught me everything I know about them.
I don't know what ya'll are talking about

While ya'll were talking about the big O, I was strokin my club stickout

I'm completely innocent

FREAKS!!


Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/25/08 07:32 AM
So much for a relaxing weekend. The SCQ didn't get answers fast enough and snapped at me, telling me how I 'should' communicate. I took the bait and snapped back. A little, anyway, which prompted her to snap back. In the end she backed down a bit.

It's too embarrassing to post the text. I know better than to mix it up with her like this.

So now basically nothing has changed other than that I'm emotionally drained. Drained from my soul.

This whole thing sucks so much.

Tomorrow will be better.
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/25/08 07:49 AM
SD,
nothing really to say.
Just....

hug hug hug

Lil
Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/25/08 01:01 PM
Wow guys. Thanks for your kind words. I really only come here to try to help so it's good to know that I do at times.

I do not have my story posted- but perhaps one day I will.
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/25/08 01:55 PM
Please do, coach.

I think we sometimes get caught up on these boards with wayward bashing, but we are people and can learn from our mistakes.

Your story broke my heart, especially since I know how you feel regarding your infidelity and how you wish you could make it up to your WH and have him accept your apology.

You've risen above the mistake and are making amends as best you can.

Not to get on a religious tangent but I often think of the stories in the bible of the adulterous women that Jesus ran into. He forgave them. He didn't cast them out. He forgave them because they were sorry and repented.

What other example do we need about how to handle a repentant wayward?

In your case, you fall into the FFWW. (Fabulous Former Wayward Wife)

Sorry for the T/J.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/25/08 04:38 PM
Resisted the temptation to not get up this morning. I had a lot of trouble getting to sleep, so it wasn't much of a surprise to feel the clammy tentacles of depression when I woke. But I got moving and made it to the school in time to greet DD5.

The SCQ got to watch as she ran to me and hugged, kissed, and high-fived me. She's totally ready for kindergarten.

Now I'm at work. . . jonesing for a nap.
Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/25/08 04:58 PM
[quote=sdguy038

Now I'm at work. . . jonesing for a nap. [/quote]

Know that feeling.

I bet the SCQ hasn't even considered the fact that one day another woman will be tucking her kids in. That's one thing I wasn't prepared for. I was prepared for not being married to my exH anymore but I never considered that one day he would remarry and his new wife would be tucking my kids into bed part of the time.

The first time stepmom polished my daughters nails I went on a crying jag for two days.

Lucky for me stepmom is someone I've known for years and she does a pretty good job.

Thanks for the compliment POM. I appreciate it.
Quote
Resisted the temptation to not get up this morning.

Man, have I been there!

Quote
she ran to me and hugged, kissed, and high-fived me. She's totally ready for kindergarten.

That is so awesome, Guy Smiley! Enjoy it while you can, I'm sure not getting any hugs, kisses, or high-fives from DDs this year! They're "too cool," ya know.

I found something in DD14's room this weekend while looking for a card she wanted me to get. Broke me up pretty badly. She doesn't keep a diary - this was one page - talking about "because dad is divorcing her she is taking it all out on me. She wants everyone to hate me as much as she does. She always yells at me for my snotty tone and sends me to my room when I don't think I do anything wrong" cry

Things are much different now then they were then. I'm not sure whether I should address it or just let it be as her frustrations of the time. I'm just torn that she actually thought I hated her. frown 'course, there were times I thought she hated me, too. And her writing actually said she did.

Her attitude has improved quite a bit lately and that snotty tone has not been heard in a good while.

I'm hoping it's just some teenage growing pains and the "poor me's" of no one understanding her.

I probably was a bit sensitive to her behavior due to the circumstances and she was probably acting out a bit because of the situation. I let her get by with much more than I probably should have but she certainly doesn't see that.

One of the things in her writing was that "I wish I could have told her when she asked me what was wrong but I couldn't." At least she recognizes that I was asking and wanted to know. That's more than I ever got from my mom.


Sorry for the t/j.

Fox


Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/25/08 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
she ran to me and hugged, kissed, and high-fived me. She's totally ready for kindergarten.


Hey.. guess what SD..

You're one of the 'good guys' too.



Not to mention you've done a fabulous job with DD smile
Well, SD's one of the good guys

I've still got my cyber eye on Jamesus skeptical

Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/25/08 06:58 PM
Hang on right there BC... almost wedged into that speedo now for ya..


Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/25/08 08:15 PM
Hi SD,

Quote
I took the bait and snapped back. A little, anyway, which prompted her to snap back. In the end she backed down a bit.

It's too embarrassing to post the text.

Don't be too hard on yourself, SD hug...happens to the best of us... and you are at a higher risk given your frequent contact with SCQ... :RollieEyes:

Be sure you figure out how to 'compensate' for this, though, SD... and keep reminding yourself of measures to take to further help you minimize these draining exchanges with SCQ. It sounds to me you are paying too high a price afterwards.

....next time, before hitting the 'send' button....consider this, some food for thought I got awhile back (given to me by a very thoughtful, sensitive, caring DAD dealing with a WW and that I have 'stuck' on my agenda and read every day):

- breathe
- what would the purpose of engaging be?
- why is that important?
- will they listen to me?

....sounds familiar? grin
Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/25/08 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by lunamare
....next time, before hitting the 'send' button....consider this, some food for thought I got awhile back (given to me by a very thoughtful, sensitive, caring DAD dealing with a WW and that I have 'stuck' on my agenda and read every day):

- breathe
- what would the purpose of engaging be?
- why is that important?
- will they listen to me?

....sounds familiar? grin

Great advice. Simply put.

Sometimes it's just best not to argue about it- even if we feel justified because it's not worth it.

For instance my son plays football-(his dad's idea mostly) and their team requires alot of practice. I mean four nights a week until past dark. Well this school year is starting off with and hour and a half worth of homework per night or more. Not sure how he's going to do football and keep his grades up. We've had this discussion before and my ex never agrees with me, but this year is harder. My son is having to study for the first time in his life. Rather than email ex about this now I'm going to see how his papers and his progress reports come back before I approach the subject. Because I know if I email him and we get into a big discussion then I'm going to get all torqued up and the end result will be the same because he won't listen to me- until he has proof it's hurting his grades ( I do not see how it can't- we did homework all weekend this weekend).

I told POM this before and I'll tell you. Reframe the way you think about her if you can. Think about her as the mother of your kids- and not WW. I'm not suggesting that you let her get away with anything outrageous by any means but pick and choose what's worth it to your emotional well being to get into it about.

I know that's hard to do and I'm sorry you're having to struggle with it.


skeptical

I coulda swore I heard something about a Speedo....? Hmmm...uh, anywaaaaay.

I think Luna gave you some sage advice, as well as coachswife. Your WW's response to your lack of response was prolly uncalled for, but stooping to her level only harms you. Since you only speak by email, give yourself ample time to reply to her rants.

When I receive email from the Zombie, I usually give myself a lot of time for revisions, rewrites and just plain cutting emotional stuff out.

A recent email exchange that we had did get rough, regarding the house, but BELIEVE me, the INITIAL response was much more scathing than what he received, and what he received didn't call names or such, just pointed out the obvious that he made this mess, and I intended to take whatever time I needed to make a sound decision regarding this very serious, and life altering event. I basically said that I wouldn't be BULLIED.

I'm sure I will flub up in the future, as I am human, as I believe YOU are too. Dust yourself off, ole boy, and keep movin on.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/26/08 12:20 AM
Quote
I bet the SCQ hasn't even considered the fact that one day another woman will be tucking her kids in. That's one thing I wasn't prepared for. I was prepared for not being married to my exH anymore but I never considered that one day he would remarry and his new wife would be tucking my kids into bed part of the time.

The first time stepmom polished my daughters nails I went on a crying jag for two days.
Again, thanks for your perspective, CW. It's not that I wish these consequences on the SCQ, but we BS's stand around for so long going "OMG, this is a train wreck I'm watching--she's going to regret this some day." In the pit of our stomach, however, we sometimes wonder "it's a mistake what she's doing, right?" I'm not sure why, but it's good to occasionally hear a reassuring "Oh, yes, she's making a mistake" from someone who knows.

Quote
I'm sure not getting any hugs, kisses, or high-fives from DDs this year! They're "too cool," ya know.
I am so not ready to deal with teenagers, Fox. Fortunately, I have some time left. And you and pretty much everyone else are invited to threadjack any time you want.

Speaking of Fox,

Quote
I've still got my cyber eye on Jamesus
skeptical
BC, I officially present you with a Foxy Award for Special Achievement in Emoticography. I've been trying to figure out how to use that skeptical emoticon. That was exactly right. Just like Jack Elam.

Quote
almost wedged into that speedo now for ya..
Maybe there's an emoticon for the *crickets chirping* sound effect.

And, finally, yes, Luna (and SL and CW), that was some great advice you quoted there. From what fountainhead of wisdom did you get those words, anyway? This is, of course, why I was reluctant to post the details. I know better. sigh

Hey, Bugsy, along those lines, you can whack me with the "What would Jennifer want you to do" stick if you want. I actually went through that thought process as well.

I'm joking for the most part--I'm not beating myself up much. Maybe I'll post some of the exchange. The end was interesting.

I feel pretty good today other than being a bit tired. I picked up DS8 from school and carted him over to day care, so I got to see both kids, which was nice. It's almost time for yoga. It's been a busy day, and I was trying to do some technical analysis at the end there, and the brain just wouldn't comply.

Thanks for stopping in today, everyone. And Lil last night (daytime NZ time, I'm guessing)!
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/26/08 07:49 AM
Quote
Thanks for stopping in today, everyone. And Lil last night (daytime NZ time, I'm guessing)!

hey ya,
at the moment I tend to be posting between 7.30-8.30pm.

I am pleased to hear your feeling a bit better.
WS's suck.
We need a spitting on the WS icon laugh
Just kidding.
hope tomorrow's good for you too.

Lil
Quote
Speaking of Fox,

Quote
I've still got my cyber eye on Jamesus skeptical
BC, I officially present you with a Foxy Award for Special Achievement in Emoticography. I've been trying to figure out how to use that skeptical emoticon. That was exactly right. Just like Jack Elam.

Perfection, absolute perfection. Award well-deserved.

The come-back from James was pretty darn good, too.

Quote
I am so not ready to deal with teenagers, Fox.

We've been on a pretty good patch lately. One little clash with DD14 yesterday while school clothes shopping. They really should make school clothes shopping with teenagers an Olympic Event. I'm dragging butt pretty badly this morning.

DDs seem to be unscathed by the process.

DD14 is off to WxH to babysit Babs' S8 on her one and only visitation day this week. grumble

sigh

DD15 is still home sleeping. I'm so jealous.

Oh well.

Not much new to report. Just another day at the salt mine.



I'm not going to comment on the fact that you took some bait.

Oh, wait, yes I am. **snicker** **snicker*** (we need a snicker icon)

Here's the deal......

Warning: not MB advice. GOOD FOR YOU!


I realize getting along and not getting all warped about interactions with the waywards is important. HOWEVER (aka BUT), there is self-respect that is gained when standing up against them.

Sometimes, ENOUGH is ENOUGH and they need to know it from our lips directly!

Rap it up and let 'er loose. Then let it go.

Quote
Maybe I'll post some of the exchange. The end was interesting.

:finger-drumming icon: Interesting, eh?

Fox




Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/26/08 02:10 PM
OK SD, there's no embarrassment at MB. If she said anything about physical attributes, certain behaviors, intelligence, or personal hygiene, we all know it's just wayward babble anyway.

So bring it on and we can tell you what we think.....

Don't keep us in suspense! dontknow
Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/26/08 05:13 PM
Yeah I feel like she will regret it one day- it may take a while. It's taken me a long time and counseling to deal with the guilt from my affair.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/26/08 06:07 PM
Quote
They really should make school clothes shopping with teenagers an Olympic Event.
Because I remember how much I loathed clothes shopping as a child, I don't even take the kids clothes shopping--I just go on my own and kind of hope things fit. (Yes, I am a guy, but I do okay with it. As least, as far as I know).

But I like your idea. The shopping with teenagers would be an endurance event, but there could be a separate sprint event around shopping for boys under 12.

Quote
DD14 is off to WxH to babysit Babs' S8 on her one and only visitation day this week.
puke

Quote
HOWEVER (aka BUT)
You're great, Fox. I'm so happy we're buds. smile

Quote
Don't keep us in suspense!
Okay, okay. I'll put something together. I probably oversold it, though. Gotta do some work first.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/26/08 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by coachswife
Yeah I feel like she will regret it one day- it may take a while. It's taken me a long time and counseling to deal with the guilt from my affair.


Some days I look forward to this period in WW's life..

Others.. I wonder if there's enough of a conscience in there that it will ever even be given another thought.

It's all about her pain.. how she's suffered through our marriage 'alone'.. and how horrible I've been since she decided to leave.

Yup.. horrible me.. truly a b@stard for trying to do everything I could to save our marriage, and our family, and fight for what's best for our children..

Maybe it'll come one day.. I just don't see it.. not with my WW at least.. starting to wonder if SCQ isn't the same breed..

As a side note.. Got some questions I may want to ask you one day SD.. offline.. something of a 'compare notes' thing.. seeing as you're several months ahead of me here.. been posting less and less of my sitch as the legal entanglements grow closer and closer.. but there will be updates coming.. just as soon as I can figure out how to 'safely' phrase them without tipping my hand.... heh.. just noticed in my sig... 1 year since DDay..

Feh... starting not to care anymore.

Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/26/08 07:17 PM
You may not ever know- but reality will probably bite her big time. I feel that I was as entitled as anyone who has an affair and I still came to the realization that I was very wrong.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/26/08 08:17 PM
Quote
Got some questions I may want to ask you one day
sdguy0038@yahoo.com

I check it every couple of days generally.
Originally Posted by coachswife
You may not ever know- but reality will probably bite her big time. I feel that I was as entitled as anyone who has an affair and I still came to the realization that I was very wrong.

Thank you, CW, for posting this.

I have absolute faith that my WxH will or has recognized how wrong he has been. I may never have "proof" but hearing those words from you help me confirm my conviction.

The waywards who were with all of the BS's here were good people at some time, or we would not have chosen them.

They have souls and they have feelings. Each one seems to have a different timeframe for finding this in themselves again.

Thank you for sticking around here and offering your valuable viewpoint, it is greatly appreciated.

Fox
Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/26/08 09:03 PM
Thanks Fox.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/26/08 11:48 PM
Sorry for the length.

Recall that the SCQ had already sent me a message last Wednesday about school coordination. This was the second.

SCQ: DD5 is of course in teacher's class in room 4. I am guessing you are still planning on going to school with them tomorrow. You can stop by and pick up the Kindergarten packet at her table spot. I left DD5's name project in the class for you to pick up tomorrow so she can see it. If you want to to it with her that is fine. Either way send it with her on Sunday since it is due Tuesday.

From the kindergarten packet I filled out and returned the grey contact card, green sheet about after school and lunches, and paid for a rest mat for her.

On Monday it will be a full day for DS8 but for DD5 it will just be an hour. She will meet with teacher and a small group of kids. At 8:45a she needs to be in the media center and teacher will come get the group of children while the parents do stuff at the tables to help with the class.

If you would like to take her on Monday let me know. We could meet at the school or I could drop her off at your house before taking DS8 to school.

If you get the information for DS8's class tonight please send it otherwise let me know tomorrow.


On Thursday and Friday, I took the kids to dentist appointments. Also on Friday, I took them to the school orientation. The kids were with me from Wednesday evening through Sunday morning.

Saturday. SCQ: It doesn't matter that I spoke to our children and know this information already (at least their version). You should have told me about DS8's class, that you had made dentist appointments, and the results of the appointments. The kids are not an information source and neither is day-care provider.

Saturday. SDG: I really like it when you remind me what I 'should' do. Would you like me to start reminding you what you 'should' do?

The kids had dental appointments on Thursday and Friday. DD5 had no cavities but needs to brush better and longer and floss. She will need braces at some point. DS8 got excellent marks for his brushing. He has one 'watch' spot. No cavities.

We found out yesterday morning that DS8 is in Mr. Otherteacher's class. You could have found this out yourself online, of course.

You're the one who chose to give up half your time with the kids. There are consequences for the choices you made. Don't blame me for them.


and then a few minutes later:

SDG: Look. Communicating with you upsets me. It ruins my day and affects my time with the children. I'm not able to be the father I want to be, so sometimes I choose not to send you the information as soon as you would like to have it.

It would have been easier to communicate the results of the dental appointment if, on the way back from it, DS8 hadn't told me that he saw your car and that you weren't driving it and that there were two people in it and that he was pretty sure he knew who they were, and I was the one who had to console him.


The SCQ sent me three emails in response.

SCQ: I will be taking DS8 and DD5 to school tomorrow. If you choose to come you choose to come.

SCQ: No I couldn't find it out online. It required a name and password. Remember the password that they were suppose to call your house and leave according to the mailing. If it is going to be a problem with you to communicate things that the school calls your house with I will change their home phone to my cell.

In order for you to remind me of anything I should do would require you to communicate with me which so far has been unbelievably poor. Using the kids, daycare-provider, and your mother as go betweens for communications and exchange of items is not communicating.


SCQ: It is an email not a conversation that needed to happen. I'm sure you had the appointments for the dentist on a day when you didn't have the children and could have sent me an email then so they wouldn't have to see you be affected by typing an email.

Of course DS8 knew who was in the car. The only reason he may not have said who is because of you and he knows how you get. It is unrealistic to expect the children to not talk about me and all that goes with me. You need to find a way that they feel comfortable doing it if that is what they need to say. Based on what they have told me you are not making the environment safe for them to speak freely. Your responses to them and things that you tell them are inappropriate using your false belief that it is your 'parental decision' to tell them anything you want.


SDG: I will bring DD5's name project and give it to her before school tomorrow.

I bought half-year lunch cards for both kids, a half-year milk card for DS8, and a full-year milk card for DD5. The total was $630. I got shirts and sweatshirts for them. I forgot to do the PTA thing.

I think I made the dentist appointments on either Wednesday or Tuesday. I probably should have told you when I made them, but it didn't occur to me. You know how I am. There was nothing nefarious about it. I was fully intending to tell you the results of the exams and would have done so over the weekend.

I have told you many times I don't want to communicate with you. My preference would be to not have *any* communication with you, but I tell you the stuff I think you *need* to know. It may not be as timely as you would like to have it. Again, you know how I am. Beyond that, you should figure out how to get the information yourself. I would prefer to get it myself. For example, you can probably have the school add your number to the outgoing call list without replacing mine.

Regarding talking with the children, I am very careful about what I say to them, and I have not violated the custody agreement, whatever you may think. When I asked them, both kids admitted that they felt they were not allowed to talk about POSOM, but when I asked them if it was because of something I had said, both of them said no. I never told them they couldn't talk about him. I try to make it safe for them to discuss, but they don't want to--they know that it is tied up with the demise of our family, and that's something that they don't want to talk about. I have even told them that it's okay for them to like him, but when DD5 asks me directly why I don't like him, I'm going to tell her. I've already told you I'm not going to lie to the kids. Then I gently steer the conversation away.

In case that last paragraph makes you angry, please don't take it out on me. When DD5 told me that "It's wrong for mommies to leave their families," I stood up for you. You are the only mother they have.


SCQ: : Thank you for taking care of the school stuff. I picked up a PTA form and can fill it out for myself. If you tell me to include you I will get a second directory for you (which will be sent to you thru DS8).

I'm not asking for much communication because I actually know and acknowledge that it is hard on you. All I'm asking for is the information that I cannot get myself, like I couldn't log in to get DS8's class information, that you made dentist appointments and the outcome, school things that come to you that will not be included in the online packet or the web site. Yes I get stuff from daycare-provider and the children but who knows if it is actually what you said or not. I'd rather get it right the first time and not have misinterpretations. If you had told me you had made dentist appointments but didn't get a chance to mail me the results until today when you didn't have the children I wouldn't have said anything. I would have had what they told me but would have been content to wait until you had time today to send an email. What the children say are probably close to the actually thing but they are children and may not get it quite right.

If you are actually trying to do the right thing with communicating with them then that is good. I know I do. I still believe the 'adult truth of things' may not be the correct thing to tell children because they are children and do not have the life skills to deal with/understand it. There is a difference between lying and using words and concepts that children are capable of understanding.


SDG: This is a stupid way to live. It is terrible for our children. It doesn't have to be this way.

The embarrassing part is that I can critique the emails, point out all the flaws, and tell myself how I should have done it differently (or not at all).



Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 02:39 AM
SD,

I don't have to comment on the actual exchange. You well know the good/bad/ugly of it all. Hey, that's a movie, isnt' it?!

However, I DO have to commend you for the parting shot,,,

Quote
This is a stupid way to live. It is terrible for our children. It doesn't have to be this way.

That says it all, doesn't it?! She can 'fool' herself all she wants to about the kids not understanding. The TRUTH is THEY understand all too well those things that she chooses to try to twist and turn to make it into being 'right'.

Did you read the posts from SB that LG copied to my thread today? Good stuff. Only a wayward who is de-fogging and wanting to make a change would 'get' it, but DA*M it's some GREAT stuff!!!

Sweetie, I am so, so , so sorry for the latest exhange with the demonic SCQ skeptical. You are SO above all of her squalor.

Hose yourself off from all the slime and rise to your proper place above it all.

I understand the need to get down in the mud,,,,really I DO, but rise above my friend!

pray hug
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 02:48 AM
SD,

Quote
The embarrassing part is that I can critique the emails, point out all the flaws, and tell myself how I should have done it differently (or not at all).

....well....you could always blame it on whoever made it THAT easy to hit the «SEND» button??!! :RollieEyes:
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 03:00 AM
SD:

She actually didn't seem to be ripping you that bad there.

Your para about the discussion with the children must have made her head smoke.

But she was actually pleasant.

Please note, this is going to end up a pattern. The same back and forth. You want to get your shots in. She wants it to be co-parenting.

She, sorry to say, will win. It's just human nature. Your defenses will continue to deteroriate and no, you won't be sharing hotdogs at the kids soccer games, but you will, overtime, just exchange emails that will be utterly devoid of emotion.

Your final line:

Quote
SDG: This is a stupid way to live. It is terrible for our children. It doesn't have to be this way.

SO MUCH HOPE in that line. But will be construed by the SCQ that YOU have to modify your email tatics cuz she's fine.

Otherwise it was an interesting read. You know where it went off track, and heck, I respect you for not giving her even more static, she deserves it.

Do the best you can. You have been doing well. Someday soon the D will be final. There is a certain "lifting of the weight" at that time. Maybe it will get easier. Maybe like Believer, the A will end two weeks later. And she will come back.

I really do not know what to tell you at that point. Which brings us back to "it doesn't have to be this way"

But it is.

sux.

LG
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 03:24 AM
No, I agree. Her emails were very reasonable and businesslike. My IC actually said that not responding to them makes me look silly, and I can't really disagree. It was when the SCQ told me what I should do that set me off.

She wants me to be the friendly co-parent. She probably self-righteously believes that it is what is best for the children (rather than marital recovery). She is probably extremely frustrated that I won't just get over it.

Quote
Your para about the discussion with the children must have made her head smoke.
Yeah, that's what I thought, and it's what I thought was interesting, because she didn't come back at me with both barrels. That's her pattern--her knee-jerk reaction. SDG says or does something the SCQ doesn't like--hurt SDG. Threaten with attorney fees or reduction of his time with the children or (in this case) by revoking her offer of the first day of school. She responded specifically to each of the emails, but the very first thing she did was send the one designed to hurt me.

I almost pointed that out to her--how obvious the behavior is and that there will be more consequences coming down the road for her that aren't my fault, and how I really don't want to be on the receiving end of that, but took that part out.

So. . . she didn't lash out. What's up with that? Schoolbus, you out there? Did she not read it right? Did I not spell it out clearly enough?

Quote
Your defenses will continue to deteroriate and no, you won't be sharing hotdogs at the kids soccer games, but you will, overtime, just exchange emails that will be utterly devoid of emotion.
That's Done, right? There are plenty in the audience who want me to be there six months ago. You're right. It will come.

I could have said so much more but held back because you can't unsay things. But I have to say that after reading her final email I had a flash feeling of "Wait. . . that's it?" Just a flash.

Quote
cuz she's fine.
My IC hit me with this one. The SCQ doesn't see a problem. The kids don't see a problem because they just accept what is put in front of them by their parents. The only one suffering is the one with zero power to change things. So, how long has it been? How long are you going to do this to yourself?

Quote
I really do not know what to tell you at that point.
Like you said, not much to tell that I don't already know, but thanks for stopping in anyway. Perspectives always appreciated.

Other thoughts, insights, and opinions welcome. Thanks for the encouragement Bugs and Luna.
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 04:37 AM
Hi SD,

Quote
My IC hit me with this one. The SCQ doesn't see a problem. The kids don't see a problem because they just accept what is put in front of them by their parents. The only one suffering is the one with zero power to change things. So, how long has it been? How long are you going to do this to yourself?

...yeah, I know, and feel like somehow we're NOT normal tired ...or FEEL that somehow we purposefully WANT to suffer :crosseyedcrazy: what's up with that? skeptical

...I think it may take longer 'letting go' or 'moving on' if somehow it's tide in with the FEAR skeptical that the HOPE for M recovery will go out the window right along with it shocked

...so, it becomes important for BS to PROTECT LoveB (Plan B) enough to WANT to make the EFFORT to recover M should the opportunity present itself (mind you, it may not :RollieEyes:)...

...and the danger of 'draining' exchanges with a WS is that it can further drain the LoveB (as if it wasn't in the red enough already cry)

Bottom line, for many here, life is NOT how we had envisioned it... the trick is in learning how NOT to judge it, come to terms with whatever IT IS, and learn to think of it as being DIFFERENT from what we expected it to be...and make the most of it ANYWAY! cool

... at least it's what Yours Truly is TRYING to do sigh





Posted By: Eph525 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 05:13 AM
SD, I can so relate to that exchange you documented. It's unreal how similar my interaction with exWW are to yours. Must be part of the script.
At this point, it sounds like SCQ is taking her licks and dealing with it. Who knows why.

This line caught my eye...

Originally Posted by SCQ email
I'm not asking for much communication because I actually know and acknowledge that it is hard on you.

It kinda says it all, IMO. Communication IS necessary, even though it hurts you. If you are not going to do a dark Plan B, there is some acceptance you must have that emails and some TM's will be necessary.

YOU said a lot in those emails. My suggestion now is to drop it. I still hear the fight in you, and I see the white flag from her. You will go down with this ship, she will not. Her epiphany seems to be a long way off, and you may never know that she has it.

If there is anything of importance that ONLY comes to you from school, either photocopy or read over it and then send it to SCQ. Why not set up a shared calendar online that the two of you can enter ALL appointments and events on, so that there will be even fewer emails. I dunno, just some suggestions.

I do believe you will feel better once the divorce takes place. The finality of it will allow you to accept certain things. I KNOW that it's not what you want, and so does the SCQ, for that matter. It may be what you NEED, since the SCQ is NOT coming around.



Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 12:39 PM
Wow.. I think I like your IC man..

There's a lot in your post that I can totally relate to, such as folks wanting you to get over this and move on 6 months ago. I'll be happy to say though that I think you're handling this right by holding off on the whole moving on thing until the D is final. Do I think it will help SCQ come home? No.. not now at least, and not for the forseeable future. But if/when it does end between her and POSOM.. it may make all the difference in being able to open up that line of communication. If nothing else, somewhere she's got to realize at that point that you at least held up your end of the promise until SHE forced the issue to come to a close.

I think maybe the most difficult part of the 'letting go' and getting to 'done' process for guys like us, is that we were both raised with those old school midwestern values where a handshake and a promise is something a man can stand on, and that he is often percieved by the people that matter in his life by how well he stands on that word. Folks like you and I.. when we manage to grab the high ground, we like to keep it.. and part of why you've been somewhat kicking yourself for the exchanges is that you've found yourself throwing some of that valuable dirt in her direction..

We both know that SCQ.. like my WW knows how to press your buttons.. and she's going to do it with a very long stick because she doesn't -want- to get close to you.. doesn't want to be in the blast radius of the pain she is at least starting to acknowledge that she caused.. It's uncomfortable for her, and she doesn't want to deal with it.. much easier to push the true consequences off to draw interest until she can cash it in later.. going back I suppose to hoping there is an attack of conscience there at some point.

Truthfully though SD.. our sitches are similar in that we both realize that there's nothing that WE can do at this point to end the A.. and we are powerless to do anything about R until the A ends. It's something we have no control over, but yet it consumes at least part of our thinking power every day... do we WANT to suffer? No.. but we continue to.. needlessly perhaps.. because we stand for something that is DIFFERENT.. we ARE different than a majority of the society around you and I that says ultimately that what SCQ and WW are doing is OK.. is NORMAL.. well.. if that's NORMAL.. then I'm happy to stand shoulder to shoulder with you and be DIFFERENT.. and want for my kids to be DIFFERENT too.

No real advice here.. just observation.. maybe it'll make the situation a little easier to 'put behind' you and go on.. I know that getting different viewpoints on my sitch typically makes it easier at least to grasp.. and it's tough to put something on the shelf when you aren't quite able to pick it up yet.

Man.. I need to quit with the metaphors today..

pig snot anyone?
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 01:12 PM
SDG,

I can relate a ton to you.

SCQ will keep pushing your buttons for a long time to come. They know what buttons to push.

I too get the emails with "suggestions" that are more like, "you should do x, y, z."

Like you I also feel this is a stupid way to live, but that's the reality.

All that being said, her requests are reasonable. You can prevent a lot of bad exchanges with her by giving her reports regarding the kids.

My exww has done similarly recently where she sends me a report of the kid's appointments and how things went for them. Granted, I would have appreciated a reminder that the appointment was coming, but she did report the results of the visits.

It's a process, and you're learning to communicate with a woman that was once your best friend, confidant, and lover. The former familiarity has to be shed to establish new busniness like interactions with the SCQ.

Your kids may have never heard you say anything about POSOM but they can read body language.

They can pick up on unspoken things as well and they fully understand that hearing about POSOM hurts dad. So they protect you, regardless of how open you tell them to be about things.

They will be more and more protective of you as they get older.

POSOM has a rude awekening coming to him when these kids reach their teen years.

There is a very great book that is called The Co-Parenting Survival Guide which has great ideas on how to interact with SCQ.

It suggests a weekly phone call (or email) where all business relating to the kids is addressed for the upcoming week. It says that now that you are divorced you actually have to communicate MORE with your ex, especially when it relates to the kids, because you are only seeing part of the puzzle and so is she.

Yes, SHE chose this way to live and SHE chose to do this to the family. But you do have to rise above it.

What state do you live in? You should consider a AOA suit against this man.

There's another type of lawsuit that can be brought against him for having sex with your wife. I'd consider that too.

But in the end we, the betrayed, have to find a way to get peace on our own. The apology or epiphany we desire will not come, more often than not, so we have to find a way to accept this horrible injustice and let it go.

The marriage is over. It happened. It didn't have to be this way, but it is.

The finality of the divorce may bring you some peace.

Karma is real and it will one day bite SCQ and all the waywards in one way or another. They bring it on themselves. Imagine the shock when she learns that POSOM is cheating on her with another woman some day.

That is the greatest dose of her own medicine she's likely to get someday. "If he does it with you, then he'll do it to you."

Try to find a way to approach her emails as if they were coming from someone you didn't know and had a business arrangement with.

Ignore the accusations.

Focus on what is truly important.

I still slip up and get into email exchanges with my ex, but things have gotten better and I still have to improve how I communicate. So does she. It's a process.

This really stinks, bud. I don't know if you've hit the anger phaze of grief, but believe me when I tell you that it is ugly. All the LBs you've been holding back will be like a flood unleashed if you're not careful and you'll want to say some very mean things to SCQ and POSOM. You'll have your moments about him as well.

That phaze will pass as well, but make sure you see your IC a little extra during that time.

Acceptance is a great stage to get to. You suddenly stop wanting to mention SCQ at all in your conversations and get tired of talking about anything dealing with her in any way.

You'll get there. It takes time and you're still fresh.

My thoughts are with you.
Originally Posted by Papa
Acceptance is a great stage to get to. You suddenly stop wanting to mention SCQ at all in your conversations and get tired of talking about anything dealing with her in any way.

I hover between anger and acceptance; more acceptance these days. This is prolly why I don't post about me much anymore. I read others' threads, but don't even post much in terms of help.

I'm tired of talking about the Zombie. He's not even a part of MY life anymore. The tie has really been severed. Emails pass about DS, and the house--strictly business. I try to treat this situation as a business deal that we are brokering. If I let my emotions rule, I'll wind up getting trounced. I really have to think of what's best for me and DS, even if my pride gets hurt in the process, even if I don't get what I want--I have to push for what I NEED to survive this, and to have some financial backbone.

Anyway, divorce is a slow march--I've got miles to go...
Man, oh man, sdguy. grumble "Saintly" SCQ irks me.

She is still desperately trying to co-parent. Because then everything is okay. Kids are fine, sdguy is fine, SCQ/posom are fine.

All's fine. See, she knew once she took care of herself and only herself that everyone else would fall into line. Because she is the QUEEN.

If you were dead, she'd be getting the information from school and if she didn't get a password or needed information - SHE CAN CALL the school. BOTH parents can have things sent to them from the school. This isn't the first divorce/separation they have ever had to deal with.

And she did THREATEN you. The first time she offered to drop your DD off at your house so you could take her. You ticked her off so that is the first thing she yanked back.

She's punishing you for not falling into line.

You don't answer to her. You don't have to explain your reasons for doing things to her. Every time you do, you are giving her the power.

Do what you feel is right for you and your kids. The queen can take a long walk off a short pier. grumble

hug (This guy shouldn't be so grinny. He should have a more caring look on his face)

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 03:55 PM
Hey SD. Not much I can say.

I hope this is all over very soon. There is relief. You are almost there.

I will toast you from the Minnesota State Fair with a Pronto Pup and a beer.
Amigos------>>> :twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour:
----------------------> SCQ :crosseyedcrazy:




sigh Ok, all better now.


Fox
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 05:09 PM
Hi SD,

I seem to identify a lot with what you are going through...uhmmm stage, whatever... even though I am not a 'guy'...and so I wanted to let those posters replying to you know....that I also greatly appreciate their insights...

...SD, there doesn't seem to be any way of getting 'around' the pain... and someone once told me that it was proportional to how much we were invested in the R and our family ... the more...the more painful! :RollieEyes: ....as if knowing that would be some kind of consolation! cry

...and thanks for the 'relaxation room' site you suggested...I checked it out, in fact, I think I will go back to it now! sigh

Hang in there....buddy..errrr....fellow BS!

...putting my trust into those poster who have gone the D route....and say that it gets better.... somewhat similar to when I was deciding to whether or not go into Plan B.... and they were NOT wrong about that! :crosseyedcrazy:

Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 06:16 PM
I guess being on the other side of divorce that I can see that truly, yes, it would make things easier if you guys could coparent. Trouble is, it's hard to ask the hurting parent to put their hurt aside and that's understandable.

Remember what I said about reframing her from your wife to the mother of your kids???

Even though I'm the FWW I still am on the receiving end of things my kids say about their dad "Daddy is lazy- he doesn't do anything ________ (stepmom) has to do everything" and "Daddy doesn't love me like you do mom". Of course because of their sake I defend him to them. For their sake.

Even though in the past I was selfish and had the A and hurt my children in that way going forward I've tried to be as honest and ethical as I can be in my dealings with custody issues, etc. It just makes it easier on the kids. It truly does.

Unless it's a spur of the moment thing I would never make an appointment for the kids without discussing it with him first- because I know I wouldn't like it if he did it that way. If there is something in their folders the week they are with me and he needs to see it I stick it back in the folder with his name at the top or I scan it and fax it to him. Things like that.

I guess I'm rambling but I hope I've added something of value to the discussion.

Originally Posted by coachswife
Unless it's a spur of the moment thing I would never make an appointment for the kids without discussing it with him first- because I know I wouldn't like it if he did it that way. If there is something in their folders the week they are with me and he needs to see it I stick it back in the folder with his name at the top or I scan it and fax it to him. Things like that.

This is what I was getting at.
Maybe it's the age differences of our children. I don't do this.

WxH is a big boy and can make sure he gets important information. DDs can also assess whether or not it is something that their dad needs to know.

I make ALL doctor, dentist, orthodontic appointments, parent/teacher meetings - with no input or thought to whether it works for WxH or not.

In addition to ages, it could be our different custody arrangements.

WxH has visitation, not custody.

He chose it, he can live it.

For some reason, I think we've had this discussion before.......

flirt

Fox
Oh, must be some of those differences. The Z has visitation, but he also has shared legal custody--input into care, schooling, etc must be relayed. It's NOT co parenting, it's sharing of info.

IMO, you can't co parent with an active wayward. They are not receptive to POJA, which co parenting is sort of built upon. It involves finding a parenting plan. I cannot envision me sitting down with the Z to make up a plan on how to raise our son; not right now. I CAN see not badmouthing his dad and being civil. That's about it.


Also, DS is only in first grade. He's not to be relied upon to deliver important information regarding school, or his care. *I* AM legally responsible for clueing the Z in on things, just as he is with me.

As DS gets older, I'm sure this will be more a matter of a function of their formed relationship. If the Z is highly involved in DS's life, he will be informed by his own efforts toward that.

I appreciate the perspective of coachswife on this one.
Quote
The Z has visitation, but he also has shared legal custody--input into care, schooling, etc must be relayed.

I see the difference in our thought process is that you wrote "must be relayed."

I read my divorce decree as saying "both parties have access."

WxH having access is different than me being required to get it to him.

He needs to SEEK the information. I'm not going to fall all over myself making sure he knows.

This may be "wrong" in some people's view, but the day WxH walked out is the day he became a visitor in DDs lives. He is no longer a parent in the true sense. They have his DNA and they have a right to see him and he see them, but he is not an everyday parent.

I may think differently if he ever made the effort to make appointments for DDs or be interested in their care or ask for details after they have appointments.

He has not.

Visitor.

Is it a double standard? Yep, and I'm okay with that.


Fox (ducking for cover)

ETA:
Quote
I appreciate the perspective of coachswife on this one.

I appreciate yours, even when it differs, SL.
Ah, well, I do disagree to an extent. Yes, the Z gave up the right to know what goes on in DS's daily life when he made the decision to leave. I don't talk to him at all.

When it comes to dental stuff, doctor visits, and the like, I don't usually relay that, since I am responsible for ALL of DS's medical expenses. Now, if I sign DS up for some sport, where practices could possibly fall on his visitation (and WILL), I send an email, saying what the sitch is. That's really about it.

For instance, I signed DS up for football, and sent an email informing the Z of such, attaching the website supporting the boys and girls club. That's it. My job is done. DS's practices and games WILL fall on his visitation. I cannot rely on DS to relay this info.

Like I said, as DS gets older, I expect THEIR relationship to dictate the amount of information that the Z asks for and gets. I also expect the Z to ASK or INQUIRE about things that he wants to know about. I'm no Kreskin, and cannot read his thoughts. He is responsible for his relationship with DS.

Originally Posted by foxy lady
I appreciate yours, even when it differs, SL.


Me, too, foxy, me too. I respect your position on this, also. I also agree on points regarding the WS leaving, thus forfeiting their rights to certain aspects of daily life.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 07:44 PM
Thanks for all the great discussion, guys. I'm stuck in a corporate training on :drum roll: change management and don't have time to respond in detail at the moment.

Lots of thoughts. Few answers.

Here's a question. Why shouldn't I just go with co-parenting? What is the reason not to?

I think I need something more than "because then she gets what she wants," which is what seeped out of my spine when I asked myself that question on the way home last night.

Did you ask Jennifer this question?

If so, what did she say?

If not, why not?

For me, it comes down to self-respect. I will make NO effort to make his life easy after he stomped all over me.

I won't go out of my way to make it difficult but I'm not his knowledge bank anymore and don't need to notify him when a deposit has been made.

It could be different for me, too, because WxH isn't trying to co-parent. AT ALL. SCQ IS trying - and including you, not completely taking over.

For you, I dunno.

DDs have always been more my responsibility than WxH's, it's no different now than it was during the M. He's got other things in his mind, Fox will take care of DDs.

Not much help today, am I?

Fox


I see co parenting as SHARING in how you will raise your children, what values to instill in them, how to work with consequences in their lives, good and bad, what boundaries to teach and when, and so on and so on.

I don't see shuffling raw data as co parenting. Maybe that's why I'm differing in opinion to you Foxy. I don't discuss anything with Z, I just relay info having to do with school that he may not get. Other stuff, he can check the website for. I don't even bother relaying that info.

Guy, what does co parenting mean to you? How do YOU define it?
Quote
I see co parenting as SHARING in how you will raise your children, what values to instill in them, how to work with consequences in their lives, good and bad, what boundaries to teach and when, and so on and so on.

I agree with this. This is how I see co parenting.

Using this definition, it is IMPOSSIBLE to co parent with an active wayward.

A person with no or warped values or morals, not willing to face their own consequences, having no boundaries, cannot teach anyone else.

I think we agree more than we realize.

I cannot share this with WxH because he no longer has the values/morals/common sense/respect necessary. His credibility is absolutely shot.

The raw data ties into this, though, I think. When he gets this information from me effortlessly, itencourages his belief that he is a good father because he "knows" all of DDs information. He can regurgitate this information and look like father of the year to those that fall for it. If he wants to be father of the year, he can earn it.

:twobyfour: This darn horse just won't die! wink

I gotcha, SL, we just disagree on this one.

Fox
The way I see it, I pass info along that would have an impact during visitation schedule, such as the fact that I enrolled DS in football. If I didn't tell Z this, how would he know to check the roster for practice times and games? This would negatively impact DS's life. In the end, my concern is for DS, NOT for Z. AFter the initial contact, it's up to Z to follow up and make sure that DS gets to practices and games according to the posted schedule.

There were also a couple of times when DS's karate class was switched to an alternate meeting place for the following week, but it was not POSTED anywhere, it was just told to the parents after practice, word of mouth. Z relayed this info to me, so that I didn't take DS to the wrong venue, otherwise I wouldn't have known. The same happened the week that I had DS at practice. I relayed the change to Z. In the end, it was about DS.

If I didn't tell Z AT ALL, then DS would suffer and possibly lose his place on the team for not showing up, and I would be out the money that I put up for fees.

I think it's a different sitch mostly due to age. Your girls are perfectly capable of telling dad when they have practice or something going on. Also, your DD15 doesn't do visitation currently, so there's prolly not much to relay in regards to her. So far, Z has stuck to his visitation with DS, and therefore needs to know these things about his schedule.



Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 08:44 PM
In my sitch we have "joint custody" legal and physical so we're both to consult each other about all issues relating to the children.

I was a great mom Pre A. Yes, the A was selfish and I wasn't putting my children first when I did that. But yet years after the fact I do still believe I'm a good mom now and just because I was once wayward doesn't mean that I shouldn't be involved in decisions about parenting my children.

That's just how I personally feel.





Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
I think I need something more than "because then she gets what she wants," which is what seeped out of my spine when I asked myself that question on the way home last night.

I know it feels like you're giving in when you do this and that goes against the grain.
For me, it comes down to what is best for my kid, NOT ME, NOT Z, NOT NOBODY ELSE.

Legally, I am bound to discuss major decisions with Z. If he decides NOT to be a major part of DS's life, I can see not sharing this info with him, or tapering off communication. Right now, this is not the case.

Right now, he is a part time dad. HE still chooses to be a part of his life, wanting to know what DS is into and when.

In Guy's situation, they share physical and legal custody?, and SCQ IS involved in her kids' lives, and WANTS to know this information. The part that rubs me wrong is her demanding the information according to her timeline or schedule, or HOW she wants it delivered. This is why I suggested the online calendar. No need to discuss until AFTER the calendar has been consulted.
Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 08:54 PM
I agree that's a great idea.
WxH was not that great of a dad, Pre-A, and is 1000x worse during the A.

He is not a former wayward. He is actively wayward, spending more time with his OW's child than he does his own.

He doesn't give a rip about DD15 and uses DD14 to bolster his own justifications.

I'm not saying everyone is this way and does not deserve to be an active parent.

I'm saying those that choose to not make an effort to be a real parent should not expect the actual parent to do all their work too.

You all here know more about DD15 than her own dad does. By HIS choice.

Fox





Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 09:33 PM
That's really sad, I'm sorry to hear that.
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 09:47 PM
WH and SD,

I'm a BS, so I can relate. But I do have to throw two cents into this issue.

It's not about you or your pain. It's all about the kids.

There is a great book called The Co-parenting Survival Guide.

It offers a good amount of food for thought.

One thing it points out is this:

How do you greet the pizza guy if he comes to your house?

You smile at him, open the door, do your business, then are done.

How do you handle it when your ex comes to the door?

There's oftentimes silence where not even a "hi" is exchanged.

So the two people in the world that the children love the most can't even say hi to each other. The pizza guy gets more courtesy.

Kids pick up on this.

SD, you have very little ones. You will need to get past your pain and deal with SCQ for them. The kids do pick up on things, even when not spoken. They can read body language and pick up looks between people.

Telling your ex about appointments and events is not something done for you but for your kids. WH, your attitude is that if he wants to know he can find out for himself. True enough.

BUT, he may not know or know the resources or is getting things mixed up.

This lack of communications hurts the kids and I have experienced it first hand.

My daughter got an award in school. My ex was notified via mail. She made a copy of the notice and put it into DD's backpack.

I don't always check DD's backpack because I get a lot of the info in there via email. So I never saw the notice.

DD sees me when I pick her up for church one day and she asks me why I didn't come. She said, "Mommy was there. Grandpa and Grandma were there. Why weren't you there?"

I simply didn't know. Ex never told me to check the backpack.

A simple one word email, "I put something in DD's folder. Make sure you check" would have been perfect.

Not for me. For DD and for an important even with DD.

I thought she purposely kept this info from me when in fact she tried to tell me.

So it boils down to accepting that while your spouse may have cheated and betrayed you and is not a good parent as a wayward, you still need to work with him/her for your kids regardless of your feelings.

If my ex and I communicated better, or had a once a week email exchanging info on upcoming events, then we wouldn't have had the problem, DD would have had her father there, and everything would be ok.

SD, Plan B is pretty much over once you divorce. I'm not saying go and be friends with WW, but you need to be able to communicate about the kids and need to set aside your feelings for them.

It's hard and it hurts, but the kids are the ones who hurt the most.

I was terrified as a 27 yo man to have my dad around my mom and her new H. Why? I didn't want him to be hurt despite the fact that HE was the one who cheated and broke up the family.

What helped me?

Seeing my parents together and friendly.

One of the best memories of this past year is of both of my parents, divorced, and here in my home. We sat and drank wine and laughed and joked. They were here for me and one of my court appearances.

The past was left in the past and they were here for me.

You are long ways from that. I can't say that would have been possible if dad had stayed with OW (she was never going to set foot in my home) but it's a goal you want to keep in mind.

Get the book. It's a short read.

But the attitude of "if he/she wants to parent then he/she needs to get the info" only hurts your kids.

Now if he/she ignores the info once he/she has it, then that's a different story.

But you, SD and WH, need to be the better person and do it for your kids.
I was going to let this drop - but I feel the need to respond to this as some of it was directed to me.

DDs have pain, too, from the A. THAT is what it looks like you are asking me to ignore.

Quote
How do you greet the pizza guy if he comes to your house?

You smile at him, open the door, do your business, then are done.

How do you handle it when your ex comes to the door?

There's oftentimes silence where not even a "hi" is exchanged.

So the two people in the world that the children love the most can't even say hi to each other. The pizza guy gets more courtesy.

Let me know what you say to the pizza guy when he rips your family apart and continues to at the minimum emotionally abuse my oldest DD.

He causes her harm and I'm supposed to smile and pretend that it doesn't matter?

THAT is better for DDs?

Quote
Telling your ex about appointments and events is not something done for you but for your kids. WH, your attitude is that if he wants to know he can find out for himself. True enough.

BUT, he may not know or know the resources or is getting things mixed up.

His stupidity is not my problem. I've been his secretary and his mother for way too long. He has two feet, he can stand on them.

Quote
SD, Plan B is pretty much over once you divorce.

BS. Is that what your Plan B letter said? "I will not communicate with you until you are no longer in contact with OP. Unless, of course, you decide to actually go through with the D and magically, on that day, I'll sweep it all under the rug and ignore everyone's feelings and rights but yours."

Animosity harms the children.

So does teaching them that their feelings do not matter, that someone can harm you and you supposed to just ignore it and "get along."

My DDs are more important than that and so am I.

Quote
But you, SD and WH, need to be the better person and do it for your kids.

Thanks for the opinion - and for calling me "WH".

Sometimes being the better person is sticking up for your family and demanding better treatment.

Each one of us has a right not to accept mistreatment. I will not take his abuse any longer and I will not subject DDs to it.

Yes, the pizza guy is more welcome in my home. At least he was invited.

Fox

ETA: I could feel the Amigos cringe from here.
Posted By: Raquel73 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 10:16 PM
My ex chose to move out of state for his affair partner, which put us in a really bad situation. He also does not pay child support. I do nothing for him - I tell him nothing of the kids activities, I do not send cards, pictures, invitations, etc. The kids are free to call him anytime, just as he is free to contact them, but I will do nothing. He lost that right when he abandoned us. He is the one who is missing out due to his pathetically poor and destructive choices.

Raquel73
DDay 6/2006
Divorced 8/200
Me (BW) 35
ExWH 35
Son 14
Son 10
Daughter 8
hugFoxy lady

NO cringing from me. The anger is palpable, and it's reasonable. Your WH abandoned his kids and continues to abuse BOTH of them. In the case of you DD15, he ignores her. In the case of DD14, he USES her (I thought I heard you mention that she is supposed to be babysitting Bab's DS8 on her visitation day with WH).

I was actually going to address this with you earlier and forgot--with all that pesky work getting in the way of my posting.

Wouldn't this be a good time to broach the subject of saying "NO" to certain things. Learning that you are allowed to say NO is a very important developmental step. I understand that DD14 really wants to please her dad, but I believe it is important that she has a voice in this. She may see what the power of NO did for DD15, and is afraid of the alienation and abandonment, but it's at least a subject that can be talked over. I dunno, just my humble opinion. You may have already broached this subject with DD14.

WH abandoned me. I can deal with that. DS is young, and easier to deal with right now, and relishes every moment he gets to spend with his dad. I have NO idea how Z will handle his relationship when his son is older and bolder. :RollieEyes:

That was a total tangent, but it's where my thoughts went... :crosseyedcrazy:
I'm good, SL.

It's the "getting along" thing that gets to me.

It is NOT always what is best.

Sure the "theory" sounds good, but putting it into practice does not always work and does not always benefit the children.

I have talked with DD14 about the babysitting and she does seem truly ok with it. She does get paid and the almighty dollar is important to her right now. She essentially ignores Babs S8 when she is there and he ignores her, from what she says. It'd be no different if she was there all alone while WxH was at work. She's glad to be paid doing the exact same thing she would be doing without S8 there.

I don't like it and it is not how I would teach her how to treat a "job" that she has accepted. I'm not dealing with her on this one. WxH can address it if he doesn't like it. I doubt Babs cares - DD14 is cheap labor, it doesn't really matter if S8 is taken care of or not.

Getting along doesn't work in my sitch, it might in others. We're not clones.

Fox

It's interesting that you say 'get along'. This is not how my sitch is either. If Z arrived at the door, I would close it in his face. I have no interest in direct conversation, or conversation at all. DS is well aware that his mom has been hurt by his dad, and wants him to stay away from her, but that his relationship with his dad is not something I will interfere with.

I fully EXPECT DS to pick up on the fact that I do not want to be around his dad. I don't broadcast it, but I also don't try to control my body language. I'm CIVIL if I'm around him, which hasn't been at all over the summer, which is nice.

Like I said, I relay bits of data. That's it. NO pleasantries or whatever. It's seriously just, "DS is enrolled in Blahbetty blah, here's the web link www.bitofdataforyou.com"

Who knows what our relationship will be in the future, right now, it's nonexistent.



Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 11:38 PM
Wow! Lots I missed today, too! I am sitting at the airport right now, so not sure how long I have to post.

Foxy, girl I'm pretty much with you in that trying to co-parent with an active wayward is for the birds. I did pretty much as SL states,,,,,sent on bits of data as necessary. I always put DD first - but as you said, they are grown men capable of doing what is necessary should they CHOOSE to.

Just look at Drac, now capable all by himself of finding and using school websites! Amazing what they can do when they aren't running around trying to justify their Affairs and totally focusing on the AP.

You can co-parent without being friendly. My kids were well aware of the pain caused me by Drac and the A. They understood my position not to see or speak to him unless it was an emergency. They, too, are aware of their own pain caused by him. They know it's ok to talk about it and they know it's ok to see him, love him, want to be with him.

SD, it's easy to fall into the thinking of "why not" do the friendly co-parenting thing. The one thing I can say that made the difference for me when I was wavering many times while it was HappyHoHouse - - was that being friendly co-parents HURT me. BAD. TEEF When I hurt like that, it makes me LESS of a good mother to my kids. I look at it no different than if I were a drug addict. Taking the drug makes me less of a good mom to my kids. Answer to that problem - don't take the drug.

You can co-parent without meeting her 'demands' of how it should be. Bits of necessary data can be shared and life moves on.

I know lots of back & forth on your thread today - All while you are getting that FABULOUS training on change!! Did you offer to step up and do some teaching???!!! Take time to take it all in. Nothing has to happen or change in the next few hours.

Breathe.

hug

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/27/08 11:56 PM
Quote
Breathe.
Thanks, Bugsy. It was maybe one day's worth of content spread out across two (I have to do it again tomorrow). sigh

Thanks for all the great discussion. I'll have to absorb it and maybe respond after the kids go to bed tonight. If I'm not asleep myself.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/28/08 02:01 AM
I got interrupted by a flood of emotion from the kids on the way home. I was pretty determined to follow SL's advice and let the rest of it go before this happened. Now I'm tempted to send the following:

You have asked for more communication. This was not prompted by me, in case you are wondering, and the kids told me that they wanted me to report it to you.

On the way home from daycare-provider's today, both kids broke down crying. They said they missed you today just like they miss me when they are with you.

DD5 asked why it has to be this way--why we can't be a family. I told them that pretty soon we will be divorced, which really got them crying. DS8 got upset when I explained to DD5 what the word meant. He won't say the word himself, and he wanted to protect his sister from its meaning. It was touching.

I told them that this isn't the way I want things, either--that I want you to come home so that we can be a family again. We realized that there is only one person who is happy with the way things are (you), but DS8 said that he could think of one other person.

I asked them whether or not they like POSOM, and they each said no. I reminded them that it's okay for them to like him--that they don't have to not like him because I don't, and they said again that they don't like him. I reminded them that it is okay for them to talk about him if that's what they want to do.

I asked them if they have been spending a lot of time at his house, and they said yes. I asked them if they liked that, and they said no. They said his house is boring, that there's only a pool for the dogs, and that there's nothing to do. DS8 said that he has been pretending to like it for a long time. His words, unsolicited. He said more than once that he has been "pretending to like it" for a long time.

Both kids have expressed to me previously that they want to tell you some of these things but that it's too hard. DS8 told me this in tears once--that it's just too hard to tell you how he really feels about things.

I asked them if they wanted to send you a letter to tell you these things, and they each said yes and set out to do it but they managed to distract themselves somewhere along the way. I asked DS8 if he was going to do it, and he said something about doing his homework first. I asked him if it was too hard, and he said yes. I asked both kids if they wanted me to tell you some of these things for them, and they said yes. I asked DD5 what she wanted me to tell you for her, and she said that she wants you to come home.

I asked them if they were angry about things, and they said yes.
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/28/08 03:01 AM
Guys,

I'm not looking to attack anyone and wasn't criticizing and Wildhorses, I simply used WH as a means to shorten as I wrote.

The situation is different for everyone.

Divorce isn't easy and I have had my share of moments just like you have.

My kids have had some moments themselves. My daughter is a little older and was older when she went through this and she had her moments which really broke my heart.

I'm in your corner that the people that did this to us and to our children deserve little and deserve all the bad that's coming to them.

But coparenting does have to happen at some point.

Wild, you have older children that can speak for themselves and are old enough to have a bit of a grasp on what is happening.

I don't understand why she's made to babysit the 8 year old son of OW, but that is another child caught in the middle of this mess. Your daughters are going to make her life and his life absolute he** very soon. They're old enough to express their opinions.

My kids? 6 and 4 but were 3 and 1 when this all happened. They've adapted to the changes as they've gotten older.

I don't know how they'll feel as they grow up. I can imagine they won't be too pleased as they learn what other families are like and that they don't have to be shuttled between homes and didn't have to.

The choice to do this was made for us by selfish people who "weren't happy" and chose to quit than to try to save our marriages.

I understand your pain. But there does come a point, especially with really young ones, when the pain has to be set aside because you really do need to coparent.

SD, your story at the end there is heart breaking. I'm sorry your kids are feeling that way. They are ultimately the ones who suffer the longest in these situations because the selfish idiots who did this to them had no forsight to the damage they would and do inflict on your children.

They think only of themselves.

Do not for one second think that I don't harbor my own bit of anger over all that has happened, but there does come a point when showing that anger does hurt your children more than help them.

Believe me, I would rather never see exww ever again. But i have to and I need to handle it in a way that won't hurt my children.

Showing anger towards her in front of them is not a good thing.

I'm not saying any of this is easy or desirable, but there does come a point when the anger has to be let go and there has to be interaction.

Wild, you have to deal with idiot wayward for only 4 more years.

I have to deal with mine for 14. The approaches, as a result, are very different.

SD, you have a long ways as well.

You're too soon after the hurt to know that the anger does eventually subside and that even your kids adapt to the changes.

Your kids will likely never accept POSOM or OW, especially the older girls.

I would certainly make my visits to OW's house so bad that they would never want me to come again.

I never had to deal with that, thank God. But I would have rebelled in a horrible way with OW if I had to deal with her as a teen. My brother did a number on her car when he was a teen. I was much older.

No one is saying this is easy. But the anger does have to be put away at some point or set aside. It helps when you've worked through it on your own.

Seriously, guys, I'm in your corner. I understand the pain. I understand the anger. I know what that boiling rage inside feels like and the dark thoughts that accompany such emotions.

But what I'm saying to you is that those feelings do subside with time. If they don't, then you'll be an angry and bitter person for a very long time.

One reason to let go of anger is because it is literally killing me. My blood pressure is out of control and has been for 2 years. I have to let it go or I won't be a moral compass for my children if I die.

Our kids will be left with a person who feels no remorse for destroying their family and cheating and breaking their vows.

That's not the example they need to have and they need an example of someone who is strong and stable and can have a stable and strong marriage and truly put them first in their lives.

That is our mission as the betrayed.

But one thing to keep in mind:

He who angers you controls you.

The day will come when your ex no longer angers you and things that happen to them don't matter to you any more than some stranger up the road.

I'm not there yet, but I feel I'm on my way.

All I'm saying is that anger will kill you and it does have to set aside sometime for the kids.

But it's a process and it takes time.

My advice wasn't intended to criticize and point fingers.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/28/08 05:55 AM
It was a great discussion, and I wish I could have taken part more at the time.

I know that someday I will transition to a friendlier co-parenting model. I think that I could be cordial if not friendly toward the SCQ. I just think that I would have to be fully, completely Done first, and my Done-o-meter isn't quite pegged yet.

I feel like I could start doing it tomorrow, but for some reason I would want to tell her off first. Friendly co-parenting after a good Plan FU. That's what it feels like, anyway.

So, at some point, I will do this (the co-parenting, not the FU). But not yet. Like has been said, it's all too raw.

I get that it will be better for the children. I have suspected all along that Plan B wasn't great for the children--it would probably be healthier for them to not know how much pain and anger the SCQ caused me. I rationalized this with the knowledge that marital recovery would be the very best thing for the kids, and that plan B gave us the best shot.

intact marriage >>> co-parenting > animosity

I think I was hoping someone would say this. And Fox, I think it's what Jennifer would say. All the necessary contact for co-parenting would undo the purposes of plan B (self-protection, as Bugsy wisely pointed out; protection of the spouse from hurtful content like I started letting out; and it would be meeting an EN of the WS).

Interested in thoughts on my previous post and how stupid an idea it would be to send it. I'm thinking to send it.

Bugs, what I learned about change management is that my company has been doing it wrong for the last several years. I have to do it again tomorrow. sigh

Chrisner, years and years ago the SCQ and I lived in an apartment at Bandana Square on Energy Park Drive just off Snelling, which is walking distance from the MN state fair. Tell the Butter Queen I said hi.
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/28/08 12:35 PM
I thought you did say it.

She'd probably interpret it as you doing this to the kids because in her eyes "they're fine".

It would also spoil her image of Divorce Happy Land where POSOM is a great step dad and you all hold hands and sing Kumbaya and the kids are happy with the changes.

I don't think she'd either believe you or care.

If the kids wrote letters, she'll say you put them up to it.

She won't see their pain or care any more than she sees yours or cares.

A wayward sees what she wants to see and fools others and themselves.

Others can throw their 2 cents in.

Originally Posted by Bugs
SD, it's easy to fall into the thinking of "why not" do the friendly co-parenting thing. The one thing I can say that made the difference for me when I was wavering many times while it was HappyHoHouse - - was that being friendly co-parents HURT me. BAD. When I hurt like that, it makes me LESS of a good mother to my kids. I look at it no different than if I were a drug addict. Taking the drug makes me less of a good mom to my kids. Answer to that problem - don't take the drug.

You can co-parent without meeting her 'demands' of how it should be. Bits of necessary data can be shared and life moves on.

I think this explains it much better than I did.

I get what you are saying, Po3, and I agree to an extent when it comes to younger kids.

I also feel that acceptance of whatever somebody throws at you is not something I want to teach children. It's hard to teach something is wrong when they see you accept it as okay.

My post on this subject does seem raw and anger filled but I am not that way on an everyday basis. WxH is no longer my focus.

I harbor anger because an injustice was done to my family and it rises to the surface quickly when I feel someone is defending that injustice. That is not wrong. I SHOULD be angry - but it does not have to rule me.

This forum is a way to get that out of my system. DDs aren't here and are not made uncomfortable by my personal thoughts and feelings.

They get to have their own.

I have many more than 4 more years to deal with WxH. I have the lifetime of my children. After 18 comes family holidays, high school graduation, college tuition, college dorms, college graduation, new home, weddings, grandchildren, friend/family deaths, etc, etc. We are forever connected through our children. It becomes MORE difficult for DDs at the point because the decisions is then up to them as to which house they go to on any given holiday - if any.

I am civil in his presence now. I am not friendly. He is a traitor. I will not be friendly until is OW is gone and he has at least offered an apology for the harm done to us.

Information that I KNOW he cannot get or I'm not comfortable sending through DDs is sent by me in as short and factual email as I can do.

SDguy, I'd be tempted to send the email. I don't know if that is right or wrong. I doubt she'll hear you - and may actually put pressure on your kids to make them change their minds about POSOM.

I dunno. What is the gain - what is the cost? Your call.

Fox
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/28/08 04:41 PM
Wild,

I can't say I'd be all that friendly if she was with one of the men she hooked up with from the internet. She's with someone right now that she met after our D (which was only one month after I found out she wanted out. Complicated story).

So I can't be upset about OM, because he's technically not OM.

Would I be if he was OM? Absolutely. I'd probably still be angry.

I would have fought a heck of a lot harder legally and we would never have settled and I would have contested the D from the get go.

Odds are that things won't get better until the OM/OW are out of the picture.

Oftentimes the WW/WH does either come back to the BS at this point, who has long since moved on, or does at least try to apologize for what they've done to the family.

I've seen it on this board. Those waywards with kids return to the BS and apologize and look to R.

Those without oftentimes either return with apologies or move on to OM/OW 2, 3, or 4.

I'm speaking in general terms.

The ones that seem to have waywards that come back looking to R are the ones that were strong from the start and didn't appease or make things easy.

They seem to be the ones that do well either in terms of regaining their M or in terms of having a good personal recovery.

Mortarman comes to mind. He was strong as a BH. He made nothing easy for her and the affair ended and WW saw how much destruction she brought on the family and the children and they are now well into recovery. It took a loooong time for the fog to lift for her.

Chrisner is a good example of the other kind. Good personal recovery with no need for interaction with WW at all because their daughter is an adult.

Your kids will have a say in things. I can tell you that my father was welcome to family events but he knew, without having to ask, that bringing OW was completely out of the question. He tried to ask once and was shot down so quickly that he never brought it up again.

My wedding, for example. There was absolutely no way that woman would have been welcome and if he had asked I would have told him, "Come alone or don't come at all."

My mom came with her new husband. Her new H stepped aside and knew his place and was respectful of the moments where Mom and Dad played their role with me as my parents.

Things were hostile with my parents for a long time, but they are friendly with each other now and that is good for me as a child since I don't have to worry about having them around each other with arguments and fights. Things are very pleasant because they are civil and friendly and don't fight.

Your daughters are young teens, but their anger towards OW will simply grow with time. I don't know of any happy stories where teen kids happily accepted the new woman or the one that was a source of the affair.

I stayed the heck away from OW because I don't know what I would have done if I saw her. A piece of my mind would have been a light response.

Kids my age grow up with the change. I don't know how they will feel as they get older. I've heard and seen stories of kids that decide they've had enough of the one parent and go live with the other. I'm seeing it now with my step siblings. Their mom is involved with a guy they absolutely hate and can't stand while they get along great with my mom who is married to their dad.

I get along with my mom's husband and enjoy hanging out with him. But I still love my dad very much despite his cheating.

It's like SD's kids. They love both parents and are torn and are the ones who will suffer the longest. Nothing would please kids more than to see their parents reunite.

I've had my own DD6 tell me that she wishes we all lived together.

While that isn't possible, then the least I can do is be civil and friendly to their mom in front of them.

They don't need to know what i feel inside towards that other person.

Yes, they cheated.
Yes, they lied and betrayed.
Yes, they turned their back on their vows.

But there comes a point when that has to be set aside with very little ones who don't understand.

Age of the kids is a big factor. It is really much harder on older kids than on younger ones.

Older kids have memories of how things use to be and actually miss that.

Younger ones grow up with the changes.

I can't say my dad was the greatest dad in the world who was very involved in anything we did, but I still love him very much.

He very recently had a good moment with me when he just let me cry away on his shoulder. He put his arm around me as I let it all out.

I'm sure he very much regrets the path he forced on our family because of how things turned out.

But I can't hold things against him forever. At least not if I want to have a good relationship with him.

The big BUT to all of this is that OW did eventually disappear from the picture.

So that may be what it takes for you Wild, and for you SD, so that you can deal with and interact with the wayward in a positive way.

Belive me, I very much understand exactly how you feel. It's hard to look at that other person and not feel rage inside for what they did to you and your kids.

But that has to be tempered and it does subside with time.

It may not if he stays with OW/OM. I don't know what that's like.

Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/28/08 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by wildhorses7
I am not friendly. He is a traitor. I will not be friendly until is OW is gone and he has at least offered an apology for the harm done to us.

Hi there,

I understand what you're saying I really do but have you thought about the fact that you may never get that??? That he may never leave OW and he may never apologize??

He could of course and he should apologize for the things he's done but what if he never does??

As a sidenote my stepfather sexually molested me. I told my mother who believed him instead of me. Years later my therapist asked me what would mend my relationship with my mother and stepfather because it was BAD. I said of course for them to apologize for what they did. The therapist asked me if I'd ever thought that I may never get that? That I had to come to terms with that for my peace of mind, not theirs.

That was a hard one. I eventually realized that harboring such anger against them was harming me. They were going on with their lives not giving one crap about what they'd done to me, not feeling any remorse, but yet I was angry and full of resentment towards them. It was bothering me but they were pressing on. So even though I felt like by being angry I was punishing them, truly I wasn't- I was punishing myself. Because that anger allowed them to control me.

Totally different situation here I understand- and for the things your WH has done to your kids I would have the highest righteous anger myself- I'm not saying you shouldn't. But it's food for thought at any rate.

I truly don't mean to offend by my comments.

Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/28/08 05:11 PM
SD- I would probably send the email/letter. She deserves to know what the kids are thinking about her actions. Can't say it will do any good but I don't think it's out of line. That's just me.
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/28/08 05:21 PM
Just in case I was mis-understood:

Your WW won't be receptive to the email.

But it may be worth sending.
No offense taken at all, CW. We just differ in our opinions, and that is okay.

Originally Posted by coachswife
I understand what you're saying I really do but have you thought about the fact that you may never get that??? That he may never leave OW and he may never apologize??

Yup, I've thought about it. If this is the case then I will continue to be CIVL. Not ever his friend or fake-friendly acting.

Anger does not rule my life. Most of the time it does not even exist. When something NEW happens or the original injustice is defended, I defend my position. Call it anger, call it boundaries, it ends up being the same thing. I will not allow a person who mistreats my family and I to be in my life anymore than absolutely necessary for DDs. Is that residual anger or a right I have to make in who is part of my life and to what degree?

Whether he apololgizes or not doesn't change my direction in life. It just changes whether he, specifically, is allowed closer to me.

Fox
Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/28/08 05:30 PM
You absolutely have the right to do whatever you want to with your own life.

I don't ever think that my ex will be friendly to me either- but as long as we an effectively coparent I'm good with that. I don't expect him to forgive me (even though I asked) or want me to hang around or come to things at his house or anything along those lines.

I just want to coparent with him peacefully if possible.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/28/08 05:42 PM
SD,

I had to shut down my computer, re-boot and get signed on just to post to you.

Honey, what do you think will be gained if you send that email?

Will suddenly the Fog be lifted and she will see the pain she has caused her children?

I don't disagree that a parent needs to know what is going on with their kids, but honey it is right there in front of her any time she has them for her to see for herself. She chooses NOT to see.

I struggled, struggled, struggled so many times with seeing/hearing from Ladybug how she felt. How hurt she was/is. How disappointed she was in her Daddy. How she loves him LESS. Yes, she has used those words. Just like last night, she was CRYING because she needed/wanted him to be with her when instead he was downstairs on match.com.

Do you think I didn't want to get him on the phone right then and there and let him know about it? You bet I did.

Bugs would have said, "I know you think she just doesn't want to take her shower,,,and I'm sure that's part of her problem right now. However, what she is REALLYwanting and needing is your undivided time & attention. She feels like the computer is more important to you than spending time with her when she asked you to".

Do you know what Drac would have 'heard'. "Ladybugs doesn't want to take a shower."

He would have then thought "so she cries to Bugs who babies her. She probably told Bugs I'm on Match.com and Bugs is mad about it and trying to interfere with MY PRIVATE life! How dare she! I'm a GREAT Dad and she just needs to butt out!"

Come on. Think about it. We both know that is what would happen in both of our cases.

Now, let's think about if you did send it "Because she needs to know". As Foxy asked, What is the cost to you and the kids??

You seem to be picking at an open wound here and trying to make it bigger. You can't tell me this isn't keeping you Stuck in Turmoil. Well, you could tell me that, but I would not believe you if you did.

As always, it's your choice. Just be prepared to be disappointed & hurt with the venom you will receive.

Not necessarily replying to you Fox but in general to the latest topic here... my opinion (for what it's worth) is that

We CAN offer forgiveness (if we choose) but no where in the rule books does it say we HAVE to keep that person in our life. Any person -- related or not.

There is no reason under the sun for a WS and his OP to be "accepted" by the betrayed family. As for children and their relationship with their wayward parent, IMHO, that wayward parent reaps what he/she sows when the kids reject them.

For the BS to defend the wayward parent (even faking it) is a travesty because that child will go through life thinking anything they do is okay, along as they say I'm sorry or it makes them happy. THAT imho is wrong, wrong, wrong and does not make happy adults.
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/28/08 05:58 PM
My brother was 12 years old when my dad was being an idiot.

My mom found my bro under a desk in the house, curled up into a ball and crying.

My mom went and got my dad and pointed to my bro and said, "Look at what you're doing to him. Don't you see what you're doing?"

My dad still didn't get it and was still wayward and still broke contact many months later.

It wasn't until my mom changed, became strong, said, "I'm divorcing your a$$" that he finally "got it".

My DD hugged me goodbye in front of exww once, just a few months after our D, and was saying "I miss you, daddy".

She said it again another time.

All in front of exww. Know who exww blamed? Me. Said that I was making things more difficult.

My DD's feelings and hurt obviously weren't on her mind and she didn't care or acknowledged the pain caused to DD.

Who cares about my pain.

Look at the pain caused to DD and the fact that 2 years after our D, DD is still in therapy for what has happened.

Yes, the kids are so much better off now that SHE is happy. No?

:RollieEyes:

Your WW will be blind to what she's doing and has done. They all are. Acknowledging otherwise means taking a look at what they've done and asking for forgiveness.

Easier to say, "she/he will get over it. I'm happy. Off to bed with OM".

They don't care about their kids pain or they wouldn't have destroyed the family.

Forgot to add that my dad is very sorry now, many years later. And would like to undo what he did. But you can't put Humpty together again.
I don't think the kids will talk to SCQ about their situations. They may not feel free to do so, and may even dread her defending the situation, and telling them that "it's just the way it is". I know I never talked to my mom for that very reason. I knew she wasn't going to unmarry my first step father (not an affair marriage), and I didn't think my thoughts carried any weight with her. I was 8 years old when she remarried.

They talk to you, Guy, because they trust that you will HEAR them. They have a safe haven with you. They may actually feel pressure from you to confront SCQ. I would just let them speak, comfort them as best you can, ENCOURAGE them to speak their minds to BOTH parents, and let it go.

I wouldn't send what you wrote if you are looking for some reaction. Nothing is going to change, not anytime soon.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/28/08 06:35 PM
SDguy:

Someone around here once said that folks in a divorce sitch needed to write a letter to thier children.

You can write several if you like.

That letter would describe HOW you feel about certain things at certain points in your life so that later, you can give those letters to the children to explain to them where you were and what you were thinking and what you were trying to do to help your children.

You can send the email. So what. She will just respond with fog speak. And if not, then it won't be that satisfying anyway.

The email was your vent. You wrote down how you felt. You acknowledge the pain of the children and realize that really, there is nothing you can do about it. Until SCQ decides to change course.

Keep being thier safe haven. They can't talk to thier own mother about thier fears. That's scary, but that's wayward.

One day, when your children are older, you can give them the letter (s) and talk about your efforts to "defuse the bomb your WW built"

LG

I wonder sometimes whether the children tell the parent they feel safe with what they are actually feeling in hopes that the parent will take it to the other.

They aren't brave or strong enough to face the other parent on their own. Are they hoping the trusted parent will do it on their behalf?

I don't know the answer....just a thought.


Fox
I did take issues that DS discussed with me to the Zombie. Didn't seem to change Z's course of action. Also, tried to convince him that introducing DS to any newcomers until they were 'serious' would be detrimental to DS, but the Z did it anyway. We both verbally AGREED we would not do this, but that doesn't mean much with a wayward.

Like I said, you can try to subtly pass on to SCQ that the kids discuss their living situation with SCQ in a negative light and express fear of telling her. She will, most likely, say that you are putting thoughts into their heads. Could very well be a waste of time, and further her notion that you are POISONING the children against her.

I don't know the answer.

The only thing I do know is that I am a safe haven for DS to express his anger, frustration, happiness, sadness, etc. The good, the bad and the ugly. There are times when DS says things to me about ME that are not so lovey dovey nice. He told me, just the other day, that I was 'boring'; that I didn't 'play' with him like 'daddy' did.

I simply told him that I'm different than daddy, and enjoy different activities with DS, and that there will be times when I cannot 'play' with him, because I am taking care of running our home, cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc. I told him that I heard him, and that I would try to fit in more fun time, but to NEVER expect me to be like anyone else.

Anyway, prolly TMI, but I thought I would put that interaction out there.
Posted By: mimi_here Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/28/08 07:29 PM
Quote
I told him that I heard him, and that I would try to fit in more fun time, but to NEVER expect me to be like anyone else.

What a WONDERFUL LESSON for HIM to learn at such a YOUNG AGE!! I wish my mother had told me that so that I could have learned not to TRY to be like everybody else!!

AWESOME!!
I actually could tell, in the moment, as we were waiting for the bus together, that he GOT what I was telling him. I have had to reinforce this same issue with him over and over again.

For instance, in aftercare yesterday, most of the boys were roughhousing and playing scateboard on these small planks that looked like something a mechanic would use to shimmy under a car. DS said "I'm no good at that" and "those boys are BETTER than me". I told him that those boys are DIFFERENT than him, not BETTER, and different from one another. He will not be able to do everything that everybody else does to the same ability, just as he will be talented in some areas that others don't accel in. It's the differences that make us so special and interesting, not what's alike.

I told him that it's also totally natural to try and follow and be like others, because we feel more comfortable that way, "fitting in". I told him that he was right to TRY to do what the other boys were, and to keep trying, and doing his best, as long as it is not dangerous (which it wasn't).

I try to instill in him the principle of trying your hardest, your best, AND finding those things that you excel at and accepting less than perfection in other things.
Posted By: mimi_here Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/28/08 08:04 PM
YOU ARE SUCH A GREAT MOTHER, SL!!

I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE reading about your interactions with your son.

Please continue to share.

It is soooo HEARTWARMING and REFRESHING!!

hug hug
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/28/08 08:50 PM

Foxy,

Quote
wonder sometimes whether the children tell the parent they feel safe with what they are actually feeling in hopes that the parent will take it to the other.

They aren't brave or strong enough to face the other parent on their own. Are they hoping the trusted parent will do it on their behalf?

This is absoluely True. I have it with Ladybug all of the time. Although I encourage her all of the time to share with him, she won't. She just says, "He'll just get mad." or "He'll send me to my room" or "He'll ground me"

Now, whether or not he does/did/will do those actual things, I don't know. I do know that the message is that she can't share with him.

SL - this is so right on! Same for me.
Quote
The only thing I do know is that I am a safe haven for DS to express his anger, frustration, happiness, sadness, etc. The good, the bad and the ugly. There are times when DS says things to me about ME that are not so lovey dovey nice.

Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/29/08 02:02 AM
SD,
Gosh, I go away for a couple of days and you stir the pot.

Just a hug to you. And two words: Let Go.

I see you becoming so bitter, and maybe that is how the BS eventually looses the will to R when the WS finally does come around.

Sometimes I think that maybe they just don't love us anymore and they just don't want to be M to us. Period. Is it fog babble? I don't know. Maybe she won't want to come back when the A ends either. Just thinking........

It's a shame that the kids have to suffer.
The one thing I wish I could do is bottle up a bit of innocence for my son. There is a loss in that realm that cannot ever be reclaimed, EVER. Divorce is ugly. It shows kids early on that they are inconsequential to the grown up world. How sad.

As for my love for my husband, it is all but gone. The man he is today is not someone I want to know.

I'm with you, Chai. At a certain point, I believe I have to stop BLAMING fog or waywardness, and recognize this as part of his character, and also what he does when the love is gone. He moves on. I often wonder if he will, out of sheer luck, land another good woman like me and blow it all again when the romance wanes (because he didn't learn the tools to keep the flames going). I dunno; it always felt like FEAR was the Zombie's bedfellow. Fear of failing in our M, FEAR OF SUCCEEDING, and losing out on that fix he had grown to love.

I honestly think less and less about the Z as a person that I know, and more and more like he's just some dude I have to do business with.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/29/08 07:11 AM
I sent it. I edited it a bit and sent it.

I know this sounds conspicuous, but I didn't send it because I want to hurt her back for anything that's happened over the past couple of weeks. Like I said before, I was resolved to let that stuff go.

The kids want me to tell her. They have wanted it for a long time, I think, but I have held back (to spare myself her response, or to spare her the reality, or because I was trying to be dark, or because I was hoping someone else would tell her) This time, I asked them, and when they said yes, I told them I would. I asked them again on the way home today whether they wanted me to tell her "the stuff we talked about yesterday" and they both said yes. I had to tell her. They deserve to get their opinions expressed before the divorce is final.

No, of course I don't expect this to change anything. I fully expect her to blame me and lash out and try to hurt me. I just don't care. I'm not so concerned about protecting myself from her. All she can do is push me closer to Done. Anybody got a problem with that? Didn't think so.

This email from my SIL, who reads here but hasn't seemed to break the posting barrier, kind of sums it up.

Quote
The decision on whether or not to send the SCQ an email should have the irrelevant point, point being the SCQ. The question is: do DS8 &/or DD5 need you to send her an email?

Yeah, it would be good if she could be shocked into her proper
senses, but that's not likely to happen, going by the posts and MB experience. The real question is whether DS8 or DD5 need you to send a message for them.

Sorry, it's not about you, to answer this (I hate how often it's
not "about me"). Don't use DS8 and DD5 as an excuse to whack the SCQ, but send their mother an email if they need you to say things they can't say.
I think they needed me to say these things for them. That's why I did it. This was a factual accounting of what the kids said yesterday (or previously). I could have done way more damage with a real vent

LG, I love love love the idea of writing letters to the kids that they can have when they are adults. I already started mentally composing them. I need to be careful where I write them so that I don't break down in tears. Thanks for the suggestion!

Bugs, I can tell from your post that your reluctance was out of concern for my lingering hope and the damage that backlash can do, and I love you for that. Tomorrow I'm off to Colorado again to spend the weekends with my friends there. I can't think of a safer place to weather whatever the SCQ will spew at me. God, I can't wait to get there. This time without the kids, so that I can relax even more. Chrisner is at the Mall of Modern Civilization right about now, or I would look him up again.

SL, I too try to make it safe for my kids to talk. And to feel their emotions. That it's okay for them to cry. It's okay for them to be angry. That sometimes they will be angry at me, and that's okay too.

Thanks to all for the great discussion. POM, CW, Foxy, CL, PM, and even Mimi made an appearance on my thread. hurray

Talked to my lawyer today. Our corrections to the draft MSA will go to the SCQ's lawyer next week. Another month or so. It will be a race with our sixteenth wedding anniversary (Sept 26).
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/29/08 11:51 AM
SD.. no real advice here, just want to let you know that I'm keeping up with things.. going through many of the same feelings/things that you seem to be going through now.

I think you're doing the right things.. doing what is right for your kids, and being a good dad.

Just wanted to lend my support and let you know that I'm behind you 100%.. hoping that SOME good comes out of all of this.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/29/08 12:57 PM
SD,

It probably did a world of good for you to send that email, and that's OK. Just be prepared for the backlash. She probably will spew venom like you've never seen before, and she may ask the kids about it. Hopefully they won't be afraid to speak up when she does.

One more month and you can plan the rest of your life. You now have the tools and knowledge to mold a new relationship into the most wonderful M. You will find someone who appreciates what you have to offer. It may be the SCQ and may not be, but whoever it is will be a lucky person.

hug
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/30/08 04:43 AM
Made it to Colorado and within an hour had visited the world's largest liquor store. Good start, eh?

No word from the SCQ yet.
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/30/08 05:30 AM

Quote
Made it to Colorado and within an hour had visited the world's largest liquor store. Good start, eh?


ok.
I GOTTA go to Colorado!!!
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/30/08 11:45 AM
Quote
Tomorrow I'm off to Colorado again to spend the weekends with my friends there. I can't think of a safer place to weather whatever the SCQ will spew at me. God, I can't wait to get there. This time without the kids, so that I can relax even more. Chrisner is at the Mall of Modern Civilization right about now, or I would look him up again.

I think it only fitting that you start your trip with

Quote
Made it to Colorado and within an hour had visited the world's largest liquor store. Good start, eh?

Whoo Hoo!! Hope you left with CASES!!

I'm glad you are comfortable with your decision to send the email. I'm with you 100%, no matter what your choice.

I am most thrilled that there's been no reply. If you must check email during this trip, keep it to a minimum.

Enjoy yourself and leave thoughts of the SCQ behind as much as possible.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/31/08 01:33 AM
Today we went to Boulder and took the tour at Celestial Seasonings. They were having a tent sale. I have lots of tea now if only I can get it home. Went to a downtown festival and did lots of people watching. Saw Tropic Thunder, which I thought was hilarious. A really good day.

The response from the SCQ came in. I'm going to delete it after posting it here for your reading pleasure. Totally predictable as well as being pretty amazing.

Enjoy.

Quote
Not the exact version from Mark that I got. He was initially upset at Therese's when you got there because he didn't get the amount of homework done that he wanted before you arrived. Then you started talking about the divorce. DS8's words "Of course he started taking about ... and that made it worse".

Yes of course they want the ideal. Everyone does. But what good would it be for them to be in a house where parents sleep in separate rooms, prefer not to interact, and appear miserable.

For all practical purposes we have been divorced since I moved out. The rest of this is just legal wrangling to get the courts to sign off on it.

You telling them that we will be divorced soon is inappropriate. We are already divorced in the view that they have. They should have no knowledge of the legal stuff. So says family court and apparently we may need to go back.

We are a family just not a traditional family and that is what they should be hearing from you. They are loved by their parents regardless of whether or not you and I can live in the same house.
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/31/08 01:44 AM
Tea??? I love tea.

Quote
For all practical purposes we have been divorced since I moved out. The rest of this is just legal wrangling to get the courts to sign off on it.

puke
DD12 has the mental age of about 7-9 and she never had a "We are already divorced in the view that they have."
In fact she called a guy I was starting to get to know "the devil in disguise" because she knew it would interfere with her parents changes of getting together.

Waywards!

hug SD
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/31/08 01:47 AM
puke


They just don't get it..

sigh
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/31/08 04:18 AM
SD,

If this woman was ANYTHING like this when you were M to her, well, I don't know....

All I can say is she is not likable, and I don't like her.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/31/08 04:55 AM
She wasn't, CL. It's a total change of personality, which really makes me believe that it's the infidelity at work. Not that I really want her back. For the kids' sake, yes. For me, not so much.

I could refute every paragraph and totally let her have it. I could also rebuke my car for not getting better gas mileage. It would be equally effective.

Big hike in Rocky Mountain National Park tomorrow.

Hope everyone is having a great weekend.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 08/31/08 01:02 PM
SD,

I know what you mean. My WH was always the good guy. Never had a bad word to say about anyone and would drop whatever he was doing to help whoever needed help. The last 3 years have been totally different. He now has nothing good to say about anyone (other than OW and her crew), and has become very selfish with everything. Not the same individuals that we M. Maybe that's the A at work - they know that they are doing something against everything that they believe in and they don't like themselves.

Anyway, don't get into an email war over it. There will be plenty of time for a Plan FU should you feel that you want to go that route someday. I say take the high road now though, because one day there will be an unspoken victory on your part just because you did take the high road. When the A implodes and she realizes what a mistake it was, chances are you will have someone else in your life - someone who will be helping YOU tuck HER kids in at night (remember CW's post) - and you won't even need to lash out verbally. You will have silently proven your point. And she won't even be able to hate you because you were the loving exH who did nothing but try to save the M.

Have a great time on your trip.
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/01/08 03:35 PM
Hi SD,

If you decided to send email anyway after some reflection about it, knowing full well the pros and cons, that's fine.

...but I would not pursue it further....there is nothing in her reply that is UNEXPECTED and that warrants attention and further waste of your PRECIOUS energy!

...instead, make the most of your «break» from the mess! hug

Quote
We are a family just not a traditional family and that is what they should be hearing from you. They are loved by their parents regardless of whether or not you and I can live in the same house.

...and I have heard this often enough from WS that hearing it one more time makes me puke
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/02/08 01:54 AM
I deleted her email and am doing what I can to let it go. I admit, however, that the email was very triggering. Not because of anything that was particularly venomous, but because it is so misguided and factually incorrect. I could and wanted to refute every single line.

I won't. No point.

It was a great trip to CO. Just what I needed.

Hope everyone is having a great holiday.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/02/08 03:37 PM
Quote
Made it to Colorado and within an hour had visited the world's largest liquor store. Good start, eh?

How did this happen? I am sipping a Long Island Ice Tea from the deck at Grandmas in Duluth watching the ore boats heading out onto the lake while you're shopping at Daveco in Thornton?

Now you have to come back again.

Our trip went great. We got our mission done and still got in the State Fair and MotNH to boot. My Mom would have been pleased with our last tribute. DD20 and I have never been closer.

I talked to BC Friday night. He boarded up the house and went to Mississippi with his son to stay with his brother. He expected roof and fence damage. Houma sounds like it was hit hard. That's where BC's Momma is. I have not been able to get a hold of him yet. I will keep trying.

Glad you had a good trip.
Good job, Guy Smiley. You did much better than I would have. I don't have near the self-control. I would be sorely tested not to refute every line.

You did good. The kids wanted the information passed on, you did it on their behalf. It doesn't matter what she thinks or how much blame she will try to lay on you or how much she wants to twist it to not be true. It is what it is.

Let it go as much as you can. I'm glad the trip to CO went well.

I start class today so won't be around as much. Just know that I'm still holding my end of your net and wishing you well.

Fox

Quote
DD20 and I have never been closer.

hurray

Glad you had a good time, chris.


Quote
I talked to BC Friday night. He boarded up the house and went to Mississippi with his son to stay with his brother. He expected roof and fence damage. Houma sounds like it was hit hard. That's where BC's Momma is. I have not been able to get a hold of him yet. I will keep trying.

pray

Scary stuff. I'll stick with the occasional blizzard, I think.

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/02/08 10:13 PM
Quote
Chrisner, years and years ago the SCQ and I lived in an apartment at Bandana Square on Energy Park Drive just off Snelling, which is walking distance from the MN state fair. Tell the Butter Queen I said hi.

I know right where that is. Near the model railroad museum.

I missed the Butter Queen this year but I did get a couple (well more than a couple) Grain Belts. Can't get those in Denver.

DD started shooting at the "official size and height rims" basketball shot game on the midway. She got hot right off and won 3 big stuffed animals before they ran her off. We came back later after they changed barkers but they still knew who she was and wouldn't let her shoot anymore. We did not need more stuffed animals anyway.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/03/08 04:36 PM
Grain belts, eh? Sure they don't have it at Daveco? What about walleye on a stick? That's another staple at the fair.

The thought of DD20 getting run off for being too good a shot brings smiles.

Thanks for the updates on BC.
Originally Posted by sdguy038
I deleted her email and am doing what I can to let it go. I admit, however, that the email was very triggering. Not because of anything that was particularly venomous, but because it is so misguided and factually incorrect. I could and wanted to refute every single line.

I won't. No point.

It was a great trip to CO. Just what I needed.

Hope everyone is having a great holiday.

I would have responded with this:

:RollieEyes:

I just discovered that you can right click save these little guys as a gif image and insert them into an email. Hmmmm... the possibilities. whistle
Quote
I just discovered that you can right click save these little guys as a gif image and insert them into an email. Hmmmm... the possibilities.

Oh, REALLY!?

Fox (rubbing hands together in glee)
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/03/08 05:13 PM
Quote
What about walleye on a stick? That's another staple at the fair.

Oh, not just walleye;

Moose on a stick
Scotch eggs on a stick
Pork chops on a stick
Veggie pie on a stick
Cheesecake on a stick
Spaghetti and meatballs on a stick
A Rueban on a stick
Smores on a stick
Tater Tot hotdish on a stick

They all go good with Grain Belt.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/03/08 07:29 PM
Quote
They all go good with Grain Belt.

How is this even possible? Grain Belt is undrinkable.

In 1985 our race team won a Trophy Dash and one of the things we won was a case of Grain Belt. 3 months later there were 23 cans left in the cooler.

When all that was left was the GB, we all stopped drinking and went home...

Mark
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/03/08 07:41 PM
Quote
Moose on a stick
Scotch eggs on a stick
Pork chops on a stick
Veggie pie on a stick
Cheesecake on a stick
Spaghetti and meatballs on a stick
A Rueban on a stick
Smores on a stick
Tater Tot hotdish on a stick
Hey, Google King, got any insight into the origin of the deep-fried twinkie?

Tater tot hotdish? On a stick? Mmm. After a few Grain Belts, I'm sure it's great.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/03/08 07:46 PM
Quote
got any insight into the origin of the deep-fried twinkie?

They had those at the fair. Deep fried candy bars too. That has got to be good for you. Need the Grain Belt just to thin your blood after eating that stuff.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/03/08 08:02 PM
I think the Minnesota state fair is the first place I ever heard about deep-fried twinkies (or candy bars), but I think they must originate somewhere else. Those are just not something that Minnesotans would come up with.

Quote
Need the Grain Belt just to thin your blood after eating that stuff.
You bet.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/03/08 08:23 PM
From the internet:


Quote
A deep fried Twinkie takes the popular Hostess Twinkie cake, freezes it, dips it into batter and deep frying it to create a variation on the traditional snack cake. According to the Hostess website, Christopher Sell invented the "fried twinkie" at the ChipShop, his restaurant in Brooklyn, New York. According to CNN, the dish was adopted by Chris Mullen, but invented at a "Brooklyn restaurant." The deep-fried Twinkie was a runaway success after Mullen and his brother started selling it at county fairs in mid-August. "We sold 26,000 Twinkies in 18 days," By 2002, the Arkansas State Fair had introduced the fried Twinkie to great popular acclaim, and the notion spread to other state fairs across the U.S., as well as some establishments that specialize in fried foods.


Soooooo good and sooooo good for you.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/03/08 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by Fisherman Mark
How is this even possible? Grain Belt is undrinkable.

Mark must have heard us talking about walleye on a stick.
I saw Deep Fried Pepsi at our fair this year. Had me thinking all day on HOW do they do that?

Quote
Deep Fried Pepsi is a one-of-a-kind snack that features Pepsi flavored batter shaped into spheres, deep fried, and drizzled with Pepsi syrup and Pepsi flavored frosting topped with whip cream.

Huh, seems nothing is sacred anymore.

puke

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/03/08 10:32 PM
Quote
From the internet:
So it must be true! But seriously, I knew you could find it.

Quote
I saw Deep Fried Pepsi at our fair this year.

Eww.

On the other hand, maybe I'll go into business selling deep-fried pork rinds.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/03/08 10:56 PM
Quote
Let it go as much as you can.
I just reread LaLa's post Inside the Wayward Mind and find myself wanting to print it out and give it to the SCQ.

I guess I'm trying to walk the walk, too. sigh

Originally Posted by the fry guy
On the other hand, maybe I'll go into business selling deep-fried pork rinds.

My mother would be so happy to hear this. Fried pork rinds were one of her favorite guilty pleasures; she was on a perpetual diet, so it was a huge surprise to those not in the know.

Luckily, I'm finding it easier to let go more and more these days. I still mourn for the life that I wanted to have with my husband, but not for what I HAD. The reality was so much worse than the fantasy during attempts at recovery, it's been easier to accept things as they are now. I suppose that is because of all the false recoveries. I see a lot of mistakes that I made along the way, but recognize none of them actually kept us from entering recovery; it really was a matter of one of us being IN and one of us being non-commital. Can you guess which was which?
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/03/08 11:32 PM
Grain Belt?

Fried Everything?

I'm drunk with fat grams just reading all of this!!

I feel like I'm following SL around the board tonight!

Wish I had some wise words for you SD, but I'm in my own needing to let go mode and not doing such a hot job of it myself. I have written Drac a new letter that I'll post on my thread if I ever get there tonight!

Try to breathe through those moments of wanting to do something to educate her. They will pass eventually.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/04/08 05:38 AM
Yeah, it passed. I had some new ones, though.

I got the kids back after five days, and the first thing DS8 wanted to tell me was that he didn't have a very good weekend because POSOM got sick and they spent the whole weekend at his house.

Later I brought up Disneyland with them. We've been talking about it for most of the summer--that we were going to go, so I asked them if they wanted to go this weekend. They didn't really want to go. Part of DS8's reasoning is that he has bad feelings about it--because it's the last place he can remember us being together as a family. The three of us went last year and had a really good time, but that memory seems to have been supplanted. About Disneyland, of all places!

Sigh. It's not all bad, though. I'm just venting out the bad stuff. The kids are happy and healthy, and we'll have a good weekend.

I had forgotten that DD5's first soccer game is Saturday, so it's just as well they didn't want to go.
Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/04/08 05:12 PM
If you guys eat that fair stuff you're asking for trouble! puke

I actually worked a Pronto Pup stand last year and I could tell ya horror stories. I will never ever eat fair stuff ever again.
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/04/08 07:24 PM
Hi SD,

Quote
Yeah, it passed. I had some new ones, though.

Hang in there, SD...you're not alone....a few of us around here have the same issue :RollieEyes:

...as if knowing that helps you in any way! sigh

...so, are you working at getting that BREATHING right?
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 12:51 AM
hug to you SD. It totally sucks. Hey we need an "it sucks" emoticon. Can't you just picture that one?

Hang in there SD. You are almost there....
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 04:00 PM
Quote
I actually worked a Pronto Pup stand last year.
Okay, I'll bite. What is Pronto Pup?

Feeling good today.
sounds like the express lane at a hot dog stand
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 04:06 PM
Basically a corn dog on a stick. There are about 20 stands that sell them at the Minnesota State Fair. I have never seen them called Pronto Pups anywhere but the MSF.

CW, are you from Minnesota?
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 05:06 PM
THE CORN DOG SONG as sung at Camp WEBE (church camp):

Roll, roll, roll your weiner
In some corn and meal
Gently place it on a stick
And, then, you've got a meal





THE CORN DOG SONG as sung at my house:

Roll, roll, roll your wiener
In some corn and meal
Gently spear it with a stick
And, then, you've got a meal



Sung to the tune of 'Row, Row, Row Your Boat'.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 05:19 PM
Mmmmmm.....A Meal on a Stick
I am astounded at BC's ability to keep the thread on topic during this entire dialogue about weiners and sticks faint

If anybody tries to put a stick in my weiner I'll punch them right in the face.

I did bury my weiner yesterday. It's been a looooong time since I've been able to say that.

That better SL?
Originally Posted by the cajun
That better SL?

Yes, thanks. I don't feel like it's Friday without BC's well placed inuendo.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 06:09 PM
Quote
If anybody tries to put a stick in my weiner I'll punch them right in the face.

I did bury my weiner yesterday. It's been a looooong time since I've been able to say that.

That better SL?

I nominate this for post of the day.
Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by chrisner
Basically a corn dog on a stick. There are about 20 stands that sell them at the Minnesota State Fair. I have never seen them called Pronto Pups anywhere but the MSF.

CW, are you from Minnesota?

It is a corn dog a stick! No, I'm not from Minnesota- I'm in the South.

We do it as a fundraiser for my husband's team- he's a coach. Last year was my first year to work it as he had a parent get ill. I asked him to never put me on the list again.

They taste good- it was just the interior of the Pronto Pup stand that made me want to puke. Think no running water to wash your hands and nothing to clean grease and such with. I could say more but I don't want to gross anyone out too bad.
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 06:22 PM
So, did you compost the weiner?
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by BetrayedCajun
If anybody tries to put a stick in my weiner I'll punch them right in the face.

I did bury my weiner yesterday. It's been a looooong time since I've been able to say that.

That better SL?


flirt BC, did you like my lovely song?
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by Wife-o-Coach
Think no running water to wash your hands and nothing to clean grease and such with. I could say more but I don't want to gross anyone out too bad.

Hey I have man-eating house cats in my neighborhood. Bring it on!!
Originally Posted by cinderella
Originally Posted by BetrayedCajun
If anybody tries to put a stick in my weiner I'll punch them right in the face.

I did bury my weiner yesterday. It's been a looooong time since I've been able to say that.

That better SL?


flirt BC, did you like my lovely song?


I liked the first version. The second brought me to my knees. TEEF
Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 06:40 PM
They may not all be like this but the company we go through is like this. They have around 17 stands at our local fair and I'd have to believe that all of their stands are like that.

No running water, no gloves to wear. You're in this trailer and there is like 6 of you in there- one of which works for the company who owns the stand- and she cooks. Drops tongs on the floor?? Sticks it back in the grease to "kill the germs". The worst part of the whole thing was that they waste nothing. Corn dogs left over at the end of the night? They scrape the dough off them and reuse them the next time. At one point a box of unused dogs fell out of the freezer (which they put outside the trailer) and the hotdog part tumbled to the ground. The worker picked them back up (after being on asphalt) and put them back in the freezer.

Cleaning up that night there was no cleaner and only around four paper towels. Massive amounts of grease everywhere and nothing to clean it up with.

This year they are doing it again and I'm sending him with a bunch of cleaner and paper towels!
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 06:59 PM
My cousin worked at Metropolitan Stadium (now the Mall of the Northern Hemisphere) back in the 70’s as the assistant manager of concessions. The Twins owned the concessions under the leadership of MLB’s most notorious tight wads in history, Calvin Griffith. My cuz told me that sometimes the hot dogs came in and when they were unpacked, found to be completely covered in mold. The standing order was to throw them in the sink, wash em up good, cook and serve! Yum Yum!!!
Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 07:12 PM
That's gross. My husband's grandfather was a HUGE Twins fan for years and traveled wherever they went to watch the games. Not sure if he ate the hot dogs or not though! grin
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 07:14 PM
Quote
at BC's ability to keep the thread on topic

Wait, I thought that was the topic. Food on a stick.

I'm reading The Omnivore's Dilemma, a book about what we eat and why. The first third of the book talks a lot about the industrialization of corn--why it happened, how it doesn't help farmers, why high-fructose corn syrup is in everything we eat. Pretty interesting.

Corn dogs is a nice example.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 07:19 PM
Quote
Wait, I thought that was the topic. Food on a stick.

I'm reading The Omnivore's Dilemma, a book about what we eat and why. The first third of the book talks a lot about the industrialization of corn--why it happened, how it doesn't help farmers, why high-fructose corn syrup is in everything we eat. Pretty interesting.

Corn dogs is a nice example.

We're talking about grease, mold, man-eating housecats, wieners in the dirt and burying our wieners and you start in on the “book of the month"?

Your Mom is going to love reading where this thread has gone.
Oh, LORDY! I was unaware that your MOTHER was reading here! Yikes!

BC's weiners, and all the talk about DIRTY weiners being used over and over again.

I'd chalk it up to being Friday, but it's like this most everyday. whistle
Posted By: LaMariposa Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 08:19 PM
Hey - its a newbie from Minnesota popping in say hello! I got some great laughs reading the comments about food at the State Fair. One of my favorite places in the world. Good times, good times. Lots of deep fried foods, then some ice cream and a bucket of Sweet Martha's cookies and a twirl on a ride or two in the Midway - you're good to go! Sadly, it just ended this year - but there's always next year!
Quote
all the talk about DIRTY weiners being used over and over again

whistle <---- princessmeggy refraining from running with this on the topic of adultery.
rotflmao
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
whistle<---- princessmeggy refraining from running with this on the topic of adultery.

See how others can see what I can't when I'm typing. Astute observation for a Friday, PM. My brain's already shifted into neutral smirk
Posted By: Amazin Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by BetrayedCajun
If anybody tries to put a stick in my weiner I'll punch them right in the face.

I did bury my weiner yesterday. It's been a looooong time since I've been able to say that.

That better SL?


You guys are too funny...


Watch this...




Me, my sister,(She's a born again Christian) and her husband watched this movie years ago... at the end of the movie, durring the outtakes my brother in law and me were laughing our butts off and my sister couldn't undertand why. (Which made us laugh even harder)

"Taking a skin boat to tuna town" made me laugh so hard I had soda coming out my nose...



Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 09:13 PM
8,400 Free Corn Dogs Are Not Enough
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 09:16 PM
Mary, the Corn Shucking Farm Dog
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/05/08 11:39 PM
Thanks for stopping by LaMariposa (and everyone else), and welcome. Sometimes there is real discussion that takes place in here. This is way more fun, though. Loved the corn-shucking dog.

Hope everyone has a great weekend!
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/06/08 02:24 AM
All that shuckin' jive! Love that corn dog - Mary!
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/07/08 11:44 AM
It's early in the morning, all of this talk of man eating cats, grease, mold, burying dogs,,,,,,,,,do I dare to encourage??


Quote
I did bury my weiner yesterday. It's been a looooong time since I've been able to say that.

faint

Was there a special service for this event? And,,,,,,,,how many were in attendance? blush

Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 08:30 AM
Hey SDGuy,

So I thought I'd stop by and say 'hey' and catch up your thread and stuff...you know....

It has a life of its own huh?
I liked the phoney balony bit best, myself.
rotflmao
Being a kiwi and all that, not sure sure about the weiner jokes tho whistle

take care now hug

lil
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 02:10 PM
I am SO not telling my teenagers about this conversation!



There are people out there who understand just how traumatic the burial of a weiner/hot dog can be
That's exactly what my weiner looks like

Won't say which one whistle
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 03:58 PM
BC:

About this:

Quote
That's exactly what my weiner looks like

It has to be the one in the Bun.

Because the other one would have been "looked like"

grin
LG


Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 04:20 PM
More on death of a weiner
Originally Posted by the cajun
That's exactly what my weiner looks like

Funny, my sister's weiner looks just like that, too
Posted By: Amazin Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 04:44 PM
Quote
Funny, my sister's weiner looks just like that, too

Your sister has a wiener?

I always thought that if your sibling has a weiner it was a brother...

LOL
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 04:47 PM
That's pretty much what my neighbor's weiner looked like. I haven't heard much out of it lately, though, so maybe he's been keeping his weiner to himself.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 04:50 PM
Quote
That's pretty much what my neighbor's weiner looked like.

You looked at your neighbor's wiener?
Posted By: Amazin Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 04:52 PM
Quote
That's pretty much what my neighbor's weiner looked like. I haven't heard much out of it lately, though, so maybe he's been keeping his weiner to himself.

OK.... so you've been looking at your neighbors talking weiner....


Is that about it???

LOL
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 05:13 PM
Quote
I haven't heard much out of it lately, though

Your neighbor has a talking weiner?
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by chrisner
Quote
I haven't heard much out of it lately, though

Your neighbor has a talking weiner?

Or quite possibly a yapping weiner..

Which can be cleared up with one trip to the Dr..
faint
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 05:37 PM
rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao


rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 05:45 PM
Some people like to race their weiners
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 05:49 PM


Some people like to race their weiners

Wow. You can see their buns.
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 05:58 PM
hysterical threadjack alert!!!



REAL LETTER I GOT FROM ONE OF MY DOCTORS:

rotflmao

This is to inform you that, after carefful and agonizing consideration, I will be retiring from clinical medical practice as of August 31, 2008 in order to pursue unique intellectual property development opportunities in intraoperative nerve integrity monitoring. I also expect to do more songwriting, which one of the main reasons that I came to...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 06:50 PM
Quote
You looked at your neighbor's weiner?
A little embarrassing to admit, but yes. It was constantly annoying me, interrupting my peace and solitude so frequently that I had to take a look. It wasn't easy--I had to climb onto the kids' swingset to get a good look.

Do you suppose the songwriting doctor could still treat a yapping weiner?


Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 06:56 PM
Well, he is an ENT. It would depend on what sort of treatment was needed. I suppose that, if the weiner was supposed to be singing but was yapping instead, that might fall under the N or T part. Or, if you heard it yapping when it was making a different noise, that would fall under the E part.

Yes, he could treat it.

BUT, he won't because he retired from clinical medical practice.

Now, to be honest, I have been to a gig my internist was playing at a local bookstore. And, I went to a soiree once where all the members of the band were on the staff of a major local hospital. One of the musicians was the Chief of Surgery.
Posted By: LaMariposa Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 07:04 PM
In the spirit of the wiener discussion - here's more:

Wiener Olympics
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 07:17 PM
Soiree is a marvelous word.

This is a bit of a threadjack, but DD5 had her very first soccer game on Saturday. Her team is the Purple Unicorns, and she looked incredibly cute in her purple jersey and socks. She did fine in the game--kicking the ball when it came to her, chasing after it when it didn't, having a clue about the goals. She was tentative but had a great time.

To be honest, I was a little disappointed. A group of five-year old girls in their first soccer game, and none of them broke off into side conversations, or picked flowers, or any of that stuff--and I had been looking forward to that. A couple of them were pretty good players and kind of dominated the field.

The SCQ was not in attendance. It was my full weekend with the kids. The SCQ stopped in at day-care to see them Friday afternoon but didn't tell them anything about the soccer game. DD5 asked me just before the game whether her mom was going to be there. I said I didn't know. DD5 didn't seem to be looking for the SCQ or notice her absence, or at least she didn't comment on it if she did. DS8 probably noticed but kept it to himself. I was just as happy not to see her there but disappointed for the kids.

Last night I wrote a letter to DD5 and marked it For DD5 when she is an adult. I didn't include much in the way of details but described that what's happening now isn't what I wanted for them and how hard I fought to prevent it. I think it was a good thing to do. I'm going to write one for DS8 today.
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 07:23 PM
Weiner Metals

Good for you on the letters, I didn't write my children letters. They were 4 and 2 when their dad left. They are now 17 and 15. I don't know where the time went.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 07:27 PM
She missed DD5's first soccer game? DD will remember that for a long time.


Quote
A group of five-year old girls in their first soccer game, and none of them broke off into side conversations, or picked flowers, or any of that stuff--and I had been looking forward to that.

Chasing or running from bugs is a classic.
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 07:30 PM
For a long time, my son was the chief grass picker on his team....and he didn't start playing until he was about 7 or 8. Played for about 5 years. Only had one decent coach who could motivate him.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 07:43 PM
I was at a pee-wee football game several years ago and got to witness one of these moments. These kids could barely stand up in the helmets and pads. Just as a play was about to begin, one of the little defensive backs finds something on the ground and comes running to the sideline yelling "Coach! Coach!"

When he gets there he has a beaming smile and hands the coach the quarter he found on the field. The play went on with out him and the coach promised to hold the quarter for him and sent him back out out on the gridiron. Fun stuff.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 07:46 PM
DS8 was a conversationalist at soccer. Just not his game. Baseball suits him better.

We didn't talk about the SCQ not being at the game, but I did mention it in the letter.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 08:51 PM

5 year old girls at their first soccer game,,,,it just doesn't get much more precious than that!!!

While I am sure it was a bit easier on you for the SCQ not to be there, I could just strangle the SCQ for DD's sake! I'm glad it wasn't brought up after the game, but it will be something that she'll find out and/or remember for all of her life that her Mom wasn't there.

I love the idea of the letters. I have written Ladybug a letter each year on her birthday.

You are a great DAD.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 09:29 PM
Thanks, Bugs.

Quote
I have written Ladybug a letter each year on her birthday.
Maybe you're the one I got that idea from--my plan has been to start doing that as well.

Maybe I'll even be inspired enough to finally write the "On the Day You Were Born" essays I've always meant to.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/08/08 10:10 PM
SD
Great idea on the letters. Wish I would have done that.

I saved one from my daughter's pre-school (she was about 3 then) that said:

"Dear Mrs. Chai,

Today DD pulled down her pants and exposed her buttocks to the other children."

I wish I would have paid more attention to it then. A sneak preview of things to come.....

Anyway, one day I will give it to her.....
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/09/08 12:04 PM
Originally Posted by ChaiLover
SD
Great idea on the letters. Wish I would have done that.

I saved one from my daughter's pre-school (she was about 3 then) that said:

"Dear Mrs. Chai,

Today DD pulled down her pants and exposed her buttocks to the other children."

I wish I would have paid more attention to it then. A sneak preview of things to come.....

Anyway, one day I will give it to her.....

Oh my.. I had that same letter last year.. DS was 3 at the time as well.

I'm almost afraid to ask what comes next...
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/09/08 12:19 PM
James,

Not sure if you've read my thread at all, but my DD26 has a drug addiction. A very sad thing. I look back and not sure what I could have done differently. It seems that she was always drawn to that kind of lifestyle and those kinds of people. We had a difficult time with her from age 12 on. For some reason, she thought it was "cool" to be associated with kids who rebelled.


Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/09/08 06:14 PM
soem hot dogs have friends
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/10/08 07:02 AM
I found out that my old cat died tonight. The cat the SCQ and I had since before we were married and the SCQ took when she moved out.

I went to watch DD5's soccer practice, but afterwards, the SCQ scooped the kids up and hurried off. A bit later I got a VM from the SCQ asking me whether I could keep the kids because she was going to have to deal with Augie dying. (Her original name was Audrey, but one of DS8's first words was Augie, and so that became her name for the last half of her life. She didn't seem to mind.)

I didn't get the message right away, and by the time I did it was already over. Things got worse at the end and so she went ahead and had them put her down. I got to talk to both kids and try to console them over the phone while fighting my own tears. Tomorrow I get the kids back.

I would have liked to see her one last time to say goodbye. And now I'm regretting all the times I could have stopped to scratch her behind the ears when dropping off the kids. I mean, it's not like I was plan B'ing the cat.

She was a big, dumb, timid, not particularly affectionate cat, but she was beautiful, and she didn't have a mean bone in her body. She lived to be seventeen and a half, so she had a pretty good run.

I think I'm grieving everything right now.
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/10/08 11:18 AM
frown

SD, I know what you mean. I've been there. So have many others. Many of us have lost dearly beloved pets and we all know how badly it hurts.

For your children, there are some books that may help, The Rainbow Bridge, Cat Heaven, and (?#) Good Things About Barney. All of them deal with the loss of a pet.

For you, well, life happens. I'm sure Augie would have liked more ear scratches but you can't do that constantly. Remember that she knew she was loved and that you gave her a good life.

Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/10/08 12:32 PM
SD,

It's going to be one of those days. You know, something happens and you go into a funk again.

I'm sorry to hear about your kitty kat. And yes, you will probably start mourning everything today - the loss of the cat, the loss of the M, the loss of a family, the loss of a dream, and so on. I do the same thing whenever there is a trigger of any sort.

It's Ok though. I think that we need those days of grieving to rid our souls of the sorrow and slowly replace it with happiness. Out with the old, in with the new. I just wish it was that easy. Unfortunately it is a slooooow process.

hug
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/10/08 12:47 PM
SD,

So sorry to hear about Augie. I think it's totally normal to be grieving 'everything', as this is quite a trigger. Let it happen, just don't let it keep you down.

When my Alex passed, a friend gave me a framed poem. If I can find it, I'll post it for you. You could print & frame it, then let the kids pick a place to put it in the house as a little memorial. Ladybugs loved it.

hug
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/10/08 01:49 PM
The Tenth Good Thing About Barney

The Legend of the Rainbow Bridge

Cat Heaven (the book by Cynthia Rylant) great pictures for a little one


Cat Heaven - - - - poem by Cynthia Rylant (may be same as text of book)


For your children, you may want to go to the library and check these out. (((SD)))
Posted By: Pariah Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/10/08 01:58 PM
Being a rescue and rehabber, I've witnessed many a feathered friend across the bridge. I take solace in the thought they will be waiting for me on the other side.
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/10/08 02:31 PM
Sorry SD.

Those of us that have lived the 'particular experience' of loosing and grieving a pet (mine was a beautiful golden retriever) know what you are feeling.

...and yeah...IT IS the kind of trigger that leads to grieving...ALL OTHER LOSSES!

I am sooooo sorry for the pain, SD. Hang in there buddy! I will be thinking of you today.... (imagine an emoticon: a shoulder for you to cry on!)

hugSD hug







Thinking of you, Guy Smiley. hug

I've had a couple of old dogs put down when it was there time. It was tougher than tough.

Those gentle brown eyes looking back, completely trusting...... cry

I stayed with them until they passed. I always felt I owed them that much.

Take care, sdguy, sorrow brings many things back to the surface.

Fox

Originally Posted by wildhorses74
Those gentle brown eyes looking back, completely trusting...... cry

That's how I get away with so much flirt

naughty

Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/10/08 03:14 PM
Quote
That's how I get away with so much


BC on the Prowl
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/10/08 03:30 PM
Hey SD. Sorry about the old cat. We had 3 dogs and 4 cats over the 26 years. They were all (well maybe not one of the cats) good friends. We had to put the last cat down during my Plan A in late December 2006. I still have Wayzilla's water turtle. We have had it for over 20 years and it will probably out live me and be DD's problem some day. Not much companionship out of a turtle. But a serious improvement over Wayzilla.

Take care SD.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/10/08 05:43 PM
Thanks, guys. No serious funk so far, just some healthy grieving, so that's good. The thoughts and suggestions are truly appreciated. Thanks for the book suggestions, Cinders. I was hoping someone would point me in that direction.

Quote
I take solace in the thought they will be waiting for me on the other side.

This from the SCQ:

Quote
It turned out ok for the kids to be there. They actually had gone to the car to wait before things went real bad. They didn't see Augie at the vet. They did see her this morning because I didn't think she was going to win this last round. She did have a good run.

I have told them that she is in cat heaven with Biffer and Patches. And that she is now feeling better and she can see us and she will always be with us.

and when I mentioned that I would have liked to see her one last time

Quote
I thought you would have. It was a last minute decision. I was picking her up to take her to the 24 hour hospital for the night. She was suppose to go back to the vet in the morning for further evaluation and then to make a decision. I would have let you know tomorrow if things were at the end. Things got worse when they brought her out to me to take her to the hospital. It seemed like the right thing to do for her.

Biff was the other cat the SCQ and I had. He died about six years ago. Lung cancer. (I kept trying to get him to quit smoking, but he just couldn't kick it.)

Quote
I stayed with them until they passed. I always felt I owed them that much.
Yeah, I remember doing this with Biff, crouching down and looking into his eyes as they dosed him so that he would know his people were with him at the end. And how hard we both cried and held each other.

Quote
Not much companionship out of a turtle. But a serious improvement over Wayzilla.
grin
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/11/08 12:37 AM
SD
How did you bring in quotes from different threads?
Hey Mr. Smiley,

I'm so sorry to hear about your cat. I have had many cats throughout the years. There's Saroya, Midnight, and Sinclair, and Patches, and Oscar, and Sydney,and currently Jerry--he's an orange tabby--campground kitty.

I remember when I got Sydney. It was not long after I moved in with the Z. My sister brought in a LARGE gift bag--to which the Z said "There'd better not be anything LIVING in there" because he KNEW that one of her friend's cats had a litter. I was in the shower. She came into the bathroom, with the bag in hand and tells me she's got something for me. I take my time drying off and then go to 'unwrap' my present. I peer over the edge of the bag and there's this tiny little face, all eyes, looking up at me with that sharp toothed kitty 'meeeooo'. Little tiny tabby with white paws, cute as all get out. She was a good cat, and a great MOUSER. From the time she was old enough to hunt, we had no mice around to speak of in this ole house.

Anyway, I've got lots of good memories with the feline brood that I've grown up with. Much love and respect for the kitty kingdom.

Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/11/08 12:52 AM
I've always had dogs myself. Sandy, Frederick, Buster, and Brewski.
I also have two dogs of my own and my sister's dog living here. I have Macy (jack russell terrier) and Lucas (greyhound), and my sister has Penny (the 'weiner' dog)
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/11/08 03:30 AM
Does the wiener jump up? My Boston Terrier jumps up constantly. The little ones seem to do that.....
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/11/08 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by ChaiLover
Does the wiener jump up?

rotflmao




Jumping Dachsund

Jumping Dachsund

Some of them are REALLY jumpy

Some wear shoes

Some sing

Some even play with themselves
Cinders, those were hysterical. I love the dog singing and the dog playing by himself. My oldest son has a dachsund that's he raised from a pup named (predictably) Oscar.
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/11/08 02:33 PM
I aim to please.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/12/08 01:19 AM
Oh Cinder, those were the best. My fav was the shoes!!
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/12/08 03:15 AM
Prince CatLover loved it too!
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/12/08 12:05 PM
For those needing a laugh.. and who love cats..

icanhascheezburger.com


Cute cats.. terrible grammar.. but yet funny.



Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/12/08 03:08 PM
The Trouble With Moderators
Posted By: eeyoree Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/12/08 03:44 PM
T/J

Cinders--

Just wanted to let you know that last night when I was bored and wide awake, I saw where you had a link to your new haircut in some other thread... and I love your new haircut! I think the shorter hair really frames your face nicely smile Looks wonderful, and for such a wonderful cause! lashes

You're beautiful!

E.

End T/J
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/13/08 03:51 AM
Quote
I aim to please.

You did!...thanks, Cind.

I liked the one who played with the balls!

Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/13/08 04:08 AM
eeyoree and lunamarie...

Thanks.

I had worked on that ponytail for about 18 months. I did a half marathon through Team In Training and raised about $2000 for the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society. I thought it would be cool to donate a ponytail for a wig for someone who needed hair...so, I let it grow and grow and grow and grow until I had a meltdown and called a hair stylist I know and said....I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE. And he cut it off and styled it for me. I didn't know what kind of hairstyle I wanted. I just knew he had to cut off 8 inches and work with what was left. Ideally, I would like it longer. But, I didn't really care. Good haircuts grow out. Bad haircuts grow out. What length will it stay? Who knows. I'm glad you like it.

As for the distractions, as my silly posts are called, I got called the Diva of Distractions one day. It was perfect for the distracted ADD woman to get called that. So, I don't have one every day but I try to have several each week. Some days, it's easy. Some days, it's not.



Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/15/08 11:16 AM
SD,

while I certainly enjoy the distractions, I was wondering how you are doing??

Update, please?

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/15/08 10:13 PM
Thanks, Bugs. For a few days I've been meaning to post a thanks to Cinders and James for keeping my thread alive and full of interesting, entertaining stuff, but I didn't quite get around to it. Busy with work at the end of the week and then with the kids over the weekend. Now I've got something to report--this might be long.

I had to give a presentation at a meeting this morning, but I hadn't put the slides together as of last Friday. It wasn't a big deal--a simple presentation, but I still had to do the work of making the slides. Friday afternoon, I decided to go home and work on the weekend and knew that this would amount to me doing the slides after the kids went to bed Sunday night (because that's the way I am).

Didn't have the kids Friday or Saturday, so I joined the impromptu neighborhood celebration Friday night and drank a lot of wine. This led to a slow start Saturday, but I made it to DD5's soccer game just after it started.

DD5 was getting a drink with the SCQ on a break when I came over to let her know I was there. I gave her a hug and said the appropriate "wow, you're doing really good out there" comments, literally right next to the SCQ. I turned to retreat to a neutral spot to watch the game, and DD5 turned to go back over by the coach (to get subbed back into the game), when she stopped and looked back at me and said "I love you, Dad." smile

I tossed a ball around with DS8 during halftime, watched her play some more, and then checked in with her again before taking off to do my shopping. Later, I realized how comfortable it could have been--to put my hand on the SCQ's shoulder as I was talking to DD5; noticing that the SCQ had an open can of Coke that I could have taken a drink from. Cringe all you want, but that I had these comfortable thoughts made me think that my Plan B is still doing what it's supposed to.

Sunday exchanges are supposed to happen at noon (except the SCQ is always late). On this Sunday, DS8 had a birthday party from 10-noon and then baseball practice at 12:30. The SCQ and I had prearranged that she would drop off DD5 before 11:30 so that I could pick up DS8 from his party. The SCQ showed up at 11:40 or so, so I was consequently a few minutes late to get DS8. When she dropped off DD5, inside the transfer bag (along with some other school papers) were a couple of bills from the school daycare and a post-it from her saying "I will not be paying your portion of these bills." As if I had somehow demanded that she do so. dontknow Then DD5 told me they had gone to Seaworld Saturday night with POSOM and his kids.

All of those were mildly triggering, but I shook them off for the most part and enjoyed the day with the kids. We watched football and celebrated a birthday with the neighborhood crew. Kids had fun. I got to hold a neighbor's newborn (2 1/2 weeks) and jiggle him to sleep.

Everybody was grumpy last night, but I got the kids to bed, decompressed, and then tackled my slides, starting at maybe 11. It's dumb, I know, but it's when I do my best work. Finished after midnight, and didn't get to sleep until 2 am or so.

So I was already a bit strung out this morning. The presentation was fine, of course, but there were two emails from the SCQ that came Saturday night just before midnight I hadn't read until this morning.

For any rookies in the crowd, these are textbook reasons why not to have any contact with an actively wayward spouse (or ex, for that matter). Some of you should take a deep breath before reading these.

Quote
DS8 will need to study some tomorrow for tests this week.

The pants DD5 wore to school on Friday were too small and are now retired. Does she have any pants at your house that fit her? DS8's pants are too short as well. Even the ones he likes that are size 7x are too short.

If you have the kid's school sweatshirts can you put them in the backpacks. If you don't have them yet let me know.

Lunchboxes. Only DD5's will be given to you since the only lunch being sent to school this week is on Friday for DD5. Inside DD5's lunchbox is all of the lunch stuff that you did not clean out of either of the lunchboxes and left some of it in the bottom of DS8's backpack. All of this lunch stuff was there since Wednesday when I sent it.

Friday was the last time I will go to daycareprovider's to get stuff that you leave there when I don't pick the kids up at her house. She was going to bring it to me if I didn't pick it up. She shouldn't have to haul things you leave there. If this happens again you will need to go get it from her. You can leave things outside my house door or leave them at your front door or just behind your gate.

I will be getting DS8 a rolling backpack. He now realizes why they suggest this for 4th grade.

This time it might be wise to check the kids exchange bag.

and

Quote
Your MSA response is pathetic. I have instructed my lawyer not to make your petty changes unless you are going to pay for my lawyers time. None of your changes change anything in the MSA. They are cosmetic. Who cares if a comma needs to be removed or if [our street name] is misspelled. The courts don't.

The MSA was current at the time it was written. It is your problem that you took so long to get the house refinanced. If you want the changes then you pay my attorney to have them done. Sign the MSA that was given to you.

I can't think of anything that I would have done to earn this, so I'm guessing something else had her really pissed off, so she lashed out at me.

I mean, my lawyer told me it was a draft MSA, so I pointed out the changes. confused And, you know what? Commas can change the legal meaning, so that one was relevant. I forwarded it to my lawyer to see if he's heard anything from her lawyer. The biggest change was about the house refinance. As you may recall, the SCQ kept insisting that the refinance be complete before the MSA be written, but then the MSA didn't reflect any of that language and had a bunch of irrelevant stuff in it about how the sale should be handled if necessary and what conditions under which she would drop spousal support--she's the one who drove it this way.

I was already twitchy this morning, but this is making me all triggery. I'm working to let it go--recognizing that it's not really about me. Fighting the urge to tell her that if she doesn't like the way I handle sweatshirts and lunchboxes and pants, she should have thought about that before she turned me into a single dad. It's a direct consequence of her decisions and actions.

When I send a response, it will be calm and measured. Working on my letter to DS8 in the mean time. Sorry for the length. Hope everyone else's weekend went well.

Boy, oh boy, oh boy.

Quote
Some of you should take a deep breath before reading these.

Good thing you warned me. I did take a couple of deeb breaths. sigh sigh

Crapola, all crapola. Life must not be so sweet as a single mom as she had planned.

You don't have to pay a darn soul to do anything. It's the cost of doing "business." The "business" she started and can pay her portion of. grumble

I know it is really easy for me to say (and admittedly probably not something I could do myself), I suggest not responding. You handle things with your children as you deem appropriate. They'll let you know themselves if they dont' like short pants. wink

Quote
When I send a response, it will be calm and measured.

Good plan. There is no "if", huh?

Take care, Guy Smiley!

Fox
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/15/08 11:36 PM
mad You know, right about now I need a "shoot the moon" emoticon for the SQC. She really p1sses me off, so I can imagine how you feel.

One of these days, I hope you have the satisfaction of doing a big Plan FU. Is it childish? Sure, but it sure as heck will feel good.

In the meantime - put her on ignore.


AND CLEAN OUT THOSE LUNCHBOXES!
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/16/08 12:22 AM
it sounds like you married someone as charming as my x.

Some people are a good example of why there should be retroactive birth control.
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/16/08 12:30 AM
Oh, I forgot my manners! blush

You are welcome. smile


By the way, I found something pertinent to the previous topics - or at least one of them.


Weiner Dog Races
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/16/08 01:23 AM
Hi SD,

Sorry about the triggering...

I would choose to focus on this... as I suspect it's where you get all your strength to put up with all the crap....

Quote
hug..when she stopped and looked back at me and said "I love you, Dad.."hug

....this got my heart all mussshy and warm... smile faint
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/16/08 02:07 AM
Cinder,

I don't know how you find this stuff, but you just upstaged SD.

That was hysterical!
Posted By: howtoheal Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/16/08 02:07 AM
Isn't this email classic Sippy-cup Queen?!!?! Bwaaahaaahahahaha

Whatever. :RollieEyes:

Why should you respond? You don't have to sign it if you don't want.

Step away from the gerbil. naughty grin
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/16/08 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by ChaiLover
Cinder,

I don't know how you find this stuff, but you just upstaged SD.

That was hysterical!

Which one?

Birth Control?

or

Relapse to the Weiner Theme?




So, now I know what SCQ stands for....how did she get that label? But, you don't have to answer...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/16/08 06:58 AM
Thanks, all. Yes, classic Sippy Cup Queen. The name comes from another email she sent me. Also a classic. It's back about a hundred pages or so in my thread. Maybe more. I've been on here way too long.

No response yet. I talked with my lawyer, who was going to talk to her lawyer to find out WTF, so I think I'll wait to see what comes from that.

I'm going to go play assistant coach at DD5's soccer practice tomorrow.

Originally Posted by The Smilin' Guy
I'm going to go play assistant coach at DD5's soccer practice tomorrow.

hurray

Don't sweat the small stuff, my friend.

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/16/08 06:19 PM
Quote
I'm going to go play assistant coach at DD5's soccer practice tomorrow.

Is there crying allowed in 5 year old girl's soccer?
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/16/08 07:02 PM
Ugh.. sorry SD.. I've just not been emotionally available for MB lately, so I'm just now catching up.

I think SCQ and the IceQueen went to the same school teaching the ol 'poke with the stick' strategy.

I have often wondered what purpose all of it serves if they are truly happy and don't harbor thoughts of us from time to time..

Sometimes it'd be good to have the insights as to why they do some of these things.. but it just leads to speculation.

Personally.. I've not had much contact at all with WW in the last month or two.. and prefer it this way. I'm actually starting to find myself happy and content most days with the way things are... with the obvious exception of not having my son home every day. Though lately I've been having him quite a bit by using my 4 weeks worth of extended parenting time.. so it hasn't been so bad.. next two weeks are going to be hell though.. had to trade off my normal weekend for the one following just so DS could attend a birthday party.. means I go 2 weeks only seeing him on wednesdays.. *SUCK*..

We'll see how things go.

I think no response is a good response.. she's still wayward.. she's still spewing venom at you for whatever reason.. try not to let it get to you.
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/16/08 07:13 PM
Having helpedcoached an under 12 team boys team and been the only injury, I believe crying would be allowed....especially under 5 girls. If you get hurt, you can cry. U5 girls can cry if they are playing goal and the other team scores. Coaches can cry if something TOO funny happens. I think coaches can cry if they get hurt.

I took a ball to the face at short range and had whiplash - all the way down my spine. Not good.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/16/08 08:14 PM
Quote
Sometimes it'd be good to have the insights as to why they do some of these things.. but it just leads to speculation.
I have to admit, it's hard not to wonder in this case, given that they felt out of the blue to me and came in at such a weird time--Saturday at midnight after the whole Infidel Gang had a fun trip to Seaworld. Was it the SCQ and POSOM sitting there together trying to figure out how to stick it to SDGuy? Or was she angry about something else?

BR would tell me I only want to know so I can figure out how to control the situation, but there isn't anything I would try to control in this. I'm just interested in who and what I'm dealing with.

"Dear SCQ, the underlying theme in your email was 'I don't like the way you are parenting our children.' I have asked you repeatedly not to send me emails like this. If you don't like the way I handle the lunch bag or dress the kids, maybe you should have thought of that before you turned me into a single dad. Seriously, what did you think would happen? Did you think that I would magically transform into someone who does everything The Way You Think Things Should Be Done? Why on earth would you expect that from me? And can't you recognize how much self-control it takes on my part not to tell you to go [censored] yourself when you criticize me for not doing it The Way You Think It Should Be Done?

There is a lot more to parenting than making lunches. I know--let's play a little game. Let's imagine ten years down the road. Which do you think will be more significant in our childrens' lives--the fact that occasionally there was a ziploc bag of 3-day old carrots in the bottom of their backpack, or the fact that they got to witness you commiting adultery and forcing them to participate?"
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/16/08 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
"Dear SCQ, the underlying theme in your email was 'I don't like the way you are parenting our children.' I have asked you repeatedly not to send me emails like this. If you don't like the way I handle the lunch bag or dress the kids, maybe you should have thought of that before you turned me into a single dad. Seriously, what did you think would happen? Did you think that I would magically transform into someone who does everything The Way You Think Things Should Be Done? Why on earth would you expect that from me? And can't you recognize how much self-control it takes on my part not to tell you to go [censored] yourself when you criticize me for not doing it The Way You Think It Should Be Done?

There is a lot more to parenting than making lunches. I know--let's play a little game. Let's imagine ten years down the road. Which do you think will be more significant in our childrens' lives--the fact that occasionally there was a ziploc bag of 3-day old carrots in the bottom of their backpack, or the fact that they got to witness you commiting adultery and forcing them to participate?"


Did you really send this to her?
Yowch.

But very good.

hug


Fox
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/16/08 09:02 PM
Well, you're exactly right.

What will matter in 6 weeks? What will matter in a year? What will matter in 5 years.

It won't be carrots in their backpack. And, it won't be clothes a tad too short.

I sure as shootin' wouldn't be buying them clothes to send to her house for her to criticize. Let them go home in the clothes she bought. I can't tell you how often clothes from my x's house didn't get home and clothes from my house didn't get home.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/16/08 09:06 PM
Quote
When I send a response, it will be calm and measured.

I want to see the unedited rough draft!!!

Perhaps tossing in arrogant, autocratic, bossy, despotic, dictatorial, egotistic, imperial, insolent, lordly, overbearing, tyrannical, Nazi, patronizing, grandiose, sniffy, condescendence, huffy, bloated, bombastic, condescending, disdainful, flaunting, hoity-toity, pious, Fascist, preachy, sanctimonious, self-important, smug, strutting, swaggering, and theatrical at various spots in response to her written skit, but other wise on the mark.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/16/08 10:27 PM
Quote
Did you really send this to her?
Oops. No, I didn't send that. I know better than to send stuff like that, but sometimes I can't help myself from mentally composing them. It helps to vent them out here, so that at least my creative energy isn't totally wasted, and then maybe I can stop mentally composing them and enjoy the day.

That was largely off the top of my head. I think if I put my mind to it, I could be downright vicious. Using only the truth!

SuperDarkGuy can use his powers for good, too. I haven't gotten much in the way of work done today and have been working on my letter to DS8. Here's a passage:

"Soon the divorce will be finalized. I mentioned this to the two of you the other day during a conversation about unpleasant topics. DD5 asked what the word divorce means, and you got angry with me for telling her. You hate the word--you won't even say it, and you wanted to protect your sister from it. I was sincerely touched. Sometimes (frequently?) you mercilessly antagonize your little sister, but in that moment you were everything I could have hoped for from a protective big brother, and I will always love you for that."
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/16/08 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by Chrisner
arrogant, autocratic, bossy, despotic, dictatorial, egotistic, imperial, insolent, lordly, overbearing, tyrannical, Nazi, patronizing, grandiose, sniffy, condescendence, huffy, bloated, bombastic, condescending, disdainful, flaunting, hoity-toity, pious, Fascist, preachy, sanctimonious, self-important, smug, strutting, swaggering, and theatrical at various spots

Don't hold back now.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/16/08 10:51 PM
On the clothes, they go back and forth so often that it's not really worth worrying about. If it's something I don't want to have go over, I only put the kids in it on days when I know they are coming back. If the kids want to wear something anyway, the SCQ usually knows to send it back over without my having to say anything.

And it's not like they go out dressed like ragamuffins. I've seen plenty of little girls wearing pants that are "too short." It's true that I am a guy and that the difference between Capri pants and pants that are too short is a bit fuzzy for me, but I'll wager that nine out of ten of you would have looked at her and said she looked fine, if not adorable.

I'm not letting any of the criticisms sink in--even the lunch one. I didn't open the lunch bag because DD5 didn't use it either of the days she was with me. I just passed it along. It was absolutely zero trouble for me to dump the stuff out when I got it on Sunday. I wouldn't have even noticed if she hadn't gone to the trouble of pointing it out for me.

She had to reach to hurt me. It's interesting in a clinical sort of way.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/17/08 12:09 AM
Ah so The Sippy Cup Queen strikes again. Frankly, I think the initials should be SCB!! You get to figure out what the B stands for (I am sure you are all more than capable of picking the appropriate word)

What in the Wide World of Sports is that all about? She is SO transparent and pathetic. Although I still really want to get out the golden shovel and the wood chipper for her!!

SD, you are doing well with processing it. Venting here. Seeing it for what it is. Still hurts. Still triggers. And for all of that I am sorry.

I laughed out loud when I read how she left the old lunch stuff for you to clean out! What a hoot!

I'd wager it's a more the fact that you aren't doing the
D process Her Way vs anything to do with clothes, lunches or the price of tea in China. Throw a bit of trouble/reality in paradise and you have one pi$$ed off SCB!! Ah, the drama!

Those commas ARE important. Getting the address spelled correctly IS important. Yet, like the rest of this, she is focused on getting what she wants, when she wants it, the way she wants it. Life don't work like that and it's high time that she be reminded of that fact.

Hang in there buddy. YOU are doing so well.

MY heart melted and my eyes teared up with the turn around "I love you Daddy" comment, too. THAT is what is important. Count those blessings!!
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/17/08 01:13 AM
Yup, I think you are doing a good job....and that she deserves that B. But, going there won't help you heal.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/17/08 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by Lil Dog
Don't hold back now.
I was just warming up Lil!

I think the SCQ struggles terribly with her choices at times and when she does she goes off on some sippy cup stem cleaning, laundry detergent rash ranting, carrot bag tirade to help herself believe she still is a good mother. But inside, she knows she is not a good mother.



Originally Posted by SDmadGuy
I know--let's play a little game. Let's imagine ten years down the road. Which do you think will be more significant in our childrens' lives--the fact that occasionally there was a ziploc bag of 3-day old carrots in the bottom of their backpack, or the fact that they got to witness you commiting adultery and forcing them to participate?"
She’s already playing this game and does not like the score.



Originally Posted by SDadGuy
DD5 was getting a drink with the SCQ on a break when I came over to let her know I was there. I gave her a hug and said the appropriate "wow, you're doing really good out there" comments, literally right next to the SCQ. I turned to retreat to a neutral spot to watch the game, and DD5 turned to go back over by the coach (to get subbed back into the game), when she stopped and looked back at me and said "I love you, Dad."
That hit the SCQ like a ton of bricks. Does she get these kind of spontaneous from the heart sincere, “I love you Moms?” And a day later she’s on a rant? Coincidence? Not.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/17/08 07:24 PM
Quote
I think the SCQ struggles terribly with her choices at times and when she does she goes off on some sippy cup stem cleaning, laundry detergent rash ranting, carrot bag tirade to help herself believe she still is a good mother. But inside, she knows she is not a good mother.

Thanks, Amigo. I think you're right about this.

I'm leaning more and more towards no response, but I think I will gently probe DS8 tonight to see if anything unusual happened Saturday night.

Laundry detergent. You've got a good memory--I was trying to remember what the other rants were and couldn't come up with that one. In the end, it was dryer sheets. The store was out of Bounce-Free for a while.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/17/08 07:29 PM
How about this for a reply:

"Do you feel like a good mom now?"
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/17/08 07:35 PM
You once had a chocolate milk issue to resolve too. You are truly incompetent.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/17/08 07:45 PM
It's a wonder my kids are even still alive.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/17/08 08:19 PM
I can only imagine what will happen whe Child Services gets the scoop on Carrot-Gate.
rotflmao

Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/17/08 08:33 PM

Quote
Carrot-Gate

Oh come on this isnt fair!!!!

Some of us were otherwise occupied 100+ pages ago, share please????????????????????????????????????????????

and the other stuff, I only have heard of the sippy cup incident
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/17/08 08:49 PM
Quote
Some of us were otherwise occupied 100+ pages ago, share please????????????????????????????????????????????

and the other stuff, I only have heard of the sippy cup incident

The Origin of the Sippy Cup Queen (See Post 1782454 3/26/07 10:49 PM)

Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/17/08 09:15 PM
Thanks for that chrisner.

SDGuy, that link started me reading at around feb 2007, I only started reading your thread regulary about June 2008. You WW hasnt changed at all that I could see. She still has very angry emails, goes nuclear for no apparent reason, and makes mountains out of molehills.
Was she always like that?
I did like one quote way back there that someone said..

Quote
see anger in WS as a way of them reaching out, trying to connect.

BTW did the OM every get his D?
Sorry I haven't been around much. Work is rockin my world, among other things.

SCQ is at it again, eh? Typical. I know no response is the RIGHT answer, but man OHHHHH man, how I would love to rip her a new one a la your tirade. I know, I know, be the bigger person. smirk

:crosseyedcrazy:

Going out now to have some champagne with a close friend and toast to her husband's new job in TEXAS. Hope I don't get the beer tears.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/17/08 10:37 PM
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Your WW hasnt changed at all that I could see. She still has very angry emails, goes nuclear for no apparent reason, and makes mountains out of molehills.
Was she always like that?
She was alwasy inclined to obsess about the little things and blow things out of proportion, but that's probably because she has no idea how to communicate her feelings. Or that she has any, for that matter.

But no, she wasn't always like this. The snapping, going nuclear, is all new. It's still shocking when it happens because it's so out of character. I think it's a defensive response--I can expect it if the mirror gets held up to her somehow.

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BTW did the OM every get his D?
Good question. I don't know. I haven't talked with the OMW lately. I would like to know, though. I bet the answer is no.

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Going out now to have some champagne with a close friend and toast to her husband's new job in TEXAS. Hope I don't get the beer tears.
Have a great time, SL!

Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/18/08 05:09 AM
Quote
probably because she has no idea how to communicate her feelings. Or that she has any, for that matter.

rotflmao

Well reading your early posts was a bit enlightening. Have you done it for a while?
I mean this very nicely because I like you and I know you still have feelings for her....sometimes she come across as a little unhinged.

Now, tell me about carrotgate laugh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/18/08 06:34 AM
Quote
sometimes she come across as a little unhinged.
Yeah. FWIW, I believe in the concept of Fog and the temporary insanity of affairs and the difference between my WW and my W. This is not who she was. I don't think she could have hidden it for the first 12 years of our marriage.

Don't feel bad about wanting me to be rid of the SCQ. Everyone does. Outside of Jennifer I'd be hard-pressed to name a half dozen people who think I should keep doing this. Well, except for my kids. . . .

And, I hate to disappoint you, LD, but Carrot-gate is what Chrisner has dubbed the latest round of venomous emails, with me not noticing the ziploc bags of three-day old carrots in the bottom of DS8's backpack. Did you find the sippy cup ones back in the earlier parts of my thread? And the silliness that followed? Those were the best. Well, Chrisner's posts, really.

The other ones--dryer sheet rash, chocolate milk--she was just lashing out at me. Or trying to get her needs met. POSOM still interacts with his wife (I assume) to get his needs for parental support met, but the SCQ doesn't have that. I'm sure POSOM isn't interested in talking about our kids, so she does want something from me, even if she doesn't know it and wouldn't admit it. And, like my IC tells me, bad contact is better than no contact.

The emails like the ones I just got from the SCQ are why one is supposed to stay dark in Plan B. I know that they are the work of a crazy person, that they don't reflect my abilities as a parent, and I recovered from them fairly quickly, but they still suck away some energy.

I checked with the kids when I got them back tonight. POSOM took his kids home Saturday night, so the SCQ was alone when she wrote the emails.

Recall that a while ago I made and gave to the SCQ a bear puzzle. The kids knew that I was making that puzzle, but they didn't know when I gave it to her. They never saw it again and asked me about it, and I told them that I had given it to her. Tonight DS8 told me that the SCQ had told him that she couldn't remember what she had done with the bear, and that was why it wasn't on the mantle, which is where he thought it should be. It wasn't even a good lie.

Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/18/08 12:18 PM
You ever know anyone who has truly fabricated bits and pieces of their lives to kinda make themselves seem just a little more interesting?

Little embellishments all the time on what would otherwise be a fairly mundane story that make it just a little more interesting?

I think waywards are kind of like this.. they embellish, and manipulate the truth.. but they tell the same lie so many times it becomes.. for them at least.. their reality. We all know intuitively that one of the main wayward defense mechanisms is an unwillingness or inability to take a real good hard look at themselves. The lies make for pretty wall dressing and are certainly more interesting than what they know is underneath.. so they don't look beyond it.. they integrate it into their lives and it becomes their 'authorized' history.

I'm sure SCQ and my WW both have those naggling moments where the parts of themselves who knows the truth starts talking.. where the pretty wall dressing gets thin and just doesn't mesh quite right with the rest of the wall.. Well.. we've learned to see these moments as opportunities to change something about ourselves.. learn from our mistakes and make the overall better. Waywards tend instead of the self-analysis approach to throw more, or different covering over the blemish by deflecting the anger or dissapointment they feel themselves onto the most convenient target... while continuing to be in the wayward relationship.. that target will almost always be the BS.. This is one of the reasons as you put it SD.. that a dark plan B offers the best chance of recovery.. in a dark plan B the BS doesn't have to deal with this.. well.. bs.

I agree that it's different with kids, and I'm not saying you're taking the wrong approach.. this is just what insights I'm gaining from our similar situations.

It is almost comical if taking the right approach like Chris here does.. though it helps to have a healthy appreciation for humor that is high on irony... I recommend British comedies myself to develop this skill..

Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/18/08 11:13 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Or trying to get her needs met. POSOM still interacts with his wife (I assume) to get his needs for parental support met, but the SCQ doesn't have that. I'm sure POSOM isn't interested in talking about our kids, so she does want something from me, even if she doesn't know it and wouldn't admit it.

That is a very good point SD, and really makes a lot of sense. If she were truly blissfully happy and on Cloud 9, she wouldn't even be bothered by those things. She and POSOM would just have a good laugh about what a dork they think you are and have some fun with it. The lashing out pretty much says it all. An underlying issue there....

Everytime I think of that email I crack up. I visualize your kids with pants at their chins (Steve Erkel), little coats (think Tommy Boy - big guy, little coat), rashes on their faces, and chocloate milk mustaches. grin

Oh waywards, you gotta love 'em......

Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/19/08 12:17 AM
Quote
Yeah. FWIW, I believe in the concept of Fog and the temporary insanity of affairs and the difference between my WW and my W. This is not who she was. I don't think she could have hidden it for the first 12 years of our marriage.

Yeah I had kinda guessed that. Most people don't marry crazies knowingly smile

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Don't feel bad about wanting me to be rid of the SCQ. Everyone does. Outside of Jennifer I'd be hard-pressed to name a half dozen people who think I should keep doing this. Well, except for my kids. . . .

No, you got me wrong, I know you still want her, i can see it in the posts, I know it because BTDT. You can't just switch off feelings. If you could I would have given Flick, the flick a long time ago.
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And, I hate to disappoint you, LD, but Carrot-gate is what Chrisner has dubbed the latest round of venomous emails, with me not noticing the ziploc bags of three-day old carrots in the bottom of DS8's backpack
Darn, I thought there was another carrot story in the mix. oh well

SD or Guy or whatever you call your self for short, I am not posting to you to talk you out of anything. I find your thread fairly amusing most of the time, I get value out of it.
I do have a couple of obsevations and I fully admit, their my own and therefor suspect smile

I find it interesting that she contacts YOU when the POS is'nt around.
I find it interesting that she has to nit pick because there isnt anything 'real' to go at you for. I have been thru child exchange isues in the past with my X and when I spoke to him it was about BIG issues, like why has she come home with a sprained ankle (she was 18mths at the time), why does she smell like beer, KWIM? Dirty cups and weird clothing I would just :RollieEyes: and move on.
I also noticed that you find it easier to ignore 'nice' WW, but often feel the need to respond to the 'b*tch WW', do you think she notices too?
I find it very interesting she still makes contact with you full stop. I spent the first 10 years after leaving my X avioding him at every oportunity. If I had to make contact it was bare facts and get the h2ll out of it. She just can't seem to stop herself.

BTW, it was crappy of her to lie to her kids about the puzzle. They know, they'll remember.
Posted By: believer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/19/08 01:00 AM
Not to threadjack your thread Guy, but something you said resonated with me.

My sons' dad is dead and he wasn't a good husband. But apart from his addiction and affair he was a good dad. What I miss most about him is the bond that we had with each other about our kids. No one will love our kids like he and I did. And it was something that was precious.

I also helped my 2nd husband raise his 6. He called me last Sunday to help his daughter. And I did, and then enjoyed talking to him about her and the other kids. They were in my life for 17 years and I miss that too.

My take is that the affair will never last and SCQ will wake up and want you back.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/19/08 01:29 PM
Quote
Everytime I think of that email I crack up. I visualize your kids with pants at their chins (Steve Erkel), little coats (think Tommy Boy - big guy, little coat), rashes on their faces, and chocloate milk mustaches.

rotflmao This is exactly what I was thinking!!

So, what does a sippy cup challenged, Lunch box ignoring, carrot rotting, dryer sheet missing, rash producing, chocolate milk mistake making man have planned for the weekend??
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/19/08 02:13 PM
SD,

Are you sure we weren't married to the same woman? I get the same type of "I must exert my power" emails all the time as well. The one she sent you could have easily been mistaken for one of mine.

I too am a terrible parent for putting pants on my boys that were a little too short (goodness, they fit last week!) and have had horribly gross violations such as putting the wrong kinds of foods (in her opinion) in lunch boxes, etc.

And, like you, I have had my moments of writing draft emails like the one you posted and never sending them.

They will unfortunately never realize they are cheating, adulterous women with no morals and ARE bad mothers who destroyed their families over selfish interests.

The kids will realize it for themselves one day. We won't have to say anything because we will have been at their sides all along. We can take comfort that we are a constant presence for them and a solid foundation in their lives.

I've almost taken a vow of celibacy to be exclusive to my kids for as long as necessary. They're all I care about and live for and I get that same vibe from you.

The similarities with my own ex are creepy, lecturing emails and all.

Keep at it. Be strong. Good things will come your way.

Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/19/08 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by pomdbd3
SD,

Keep at it. Be strong. Good things will come your way.


I got some of those emails from my x. I've written responses and not sent them, too.

He is better now....but, sometimes, he doesn't realize that no one died and made him God. And, one of these days, he WILL have to answer for what he has done.

As for too small clothes....the children will survive that. I bet half the children in their class have worn too small clothes this week.

But, the last sentence of pom's post is on-the-mark.
It wasn't long ago EXWW asked me if I was puposely keeping all of DS4's blue jean shorts, cause all he had at her house was kaki's. faint

now keep in mind she's done this with different articles of clothing on more than one occasion. The problem is she does laundry about once a month. So what I am basically accused of hoarding is usually at the bottom of a pile at HER house. :crosseyedcrazy:

It's a source of amusement for me. rotflmao

Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/19/08 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by Cajun 007
It's a source of amusement for me. rotflmao

You are easily amused. Your Momma probably just wrapped up empty boxes for you at Christmas and birthdays and you were still happy.
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You are easily amused. Your Momma probably just wrapped up empty boxes for you at Christmas and birthdays and you were still happy.

Man, does this bring back memories of DDs being little and being so ENTHRALLED with the packaging that they didn't want to open the gifts. grin

We bought them a pony one year and put a big maroon bow around his neck. They had that bow for YEARS - long after the pony was gone.

That's all changed now. I don't know why I bother wrapping. :RollieEyes:

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/19/08 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by Cowgirl
That's all changed now. I don't know why I bother wrapping. :RollieEyes:

I went to bags and tissue paper a Looooong time ago. I wonder if SD messes up gift wrapping as bad as chocolate milk and carrots?

Guess that will be a Christmas email from SCQ.

"SD,

DD5 received a paper cut while unwrapping one of your lesser efforts of a gift. I always told you to use Scotch® Magic™, 3/4" x 650", 1" core permanent adhesive tape for packaging, wrapping, sealing, mending and holding, but once again you defy me and use a 1/2" non-opaque off brand. Kindly in the future Blah blah blabbitty blah blah.

SCQ"
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/19/08 05:19 PM
Maybe I'm crazy - I still love wrapping presents...and unwrapping them. dance2 Shall I send everyone my address?
My mind is in the gutter and I have no comment on any "packaging" or "unwrapping". Well, with Halloween right around the corner, I'm sure there will be something about a costume or unchecked candy to harass you about.

I'm really surprised at how BC has been able to keep it together, lately. So tame. He must be busy or in love, or something. whistle

I think I've only read this thread the last few days, because it is cracking me up laugh

Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/19/08 06:41 PM
Quote
My mind is in the gutter and I have no comment on any "packaging" or "unwrapping".

Yep, I really had to bite my lip to resist a response to Cinders last post.
Well, Chris, if I'm not mistaken, you currently have someone to burn off that energy WITH. SOME of us do not. Hmmmm, maybe that's why BC isn't around--he's burnin off some steam blush

I'm jealous
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/19/08 07:11 PM
Yep!! laugh

I am going to my very first homecoming dance in my life Saturday. I will probably be the one spiking the punch!
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/19/08 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by silentlucidity
My mind is in the gutter and I have no comment on any "packaging" or "unwrapping". Well, with Halloween right around the corner, I'm sure there will be something about a costume or unchecked candy to harass you about.

I'm really surprised at how BC has been able to keep it together, lately. So tame. He must be busy or in love, or something. whistle

I think I've only read this thread the last few days, because it is cracking me up laugh

faint


Originally Posted by chrisner
Yep, I really had to bite my lip to resist a response to Cinders last post.

faint

And I try SO hard to behave and not embarrass myself.

faint

But, I've done it again.

:RollieEyes:

blush

:MrEEk:

You would think I could do better.

TEEF


Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/19/08 08:09 PM
Hey, what the hell's going on in here? Some good discussion going on, and then BC and Chrisner show up, and then the topic of gift wrap goes into the gutter?

Must be Friday. grin

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If she were truly blissfully happy and on Cloud 9, she wouldn't even be bothered by those things.

What I miss most about him is the bond that we had with each other about our kids. No one will love our kids like he and I did. And it was something that was precious.
She Must miss this, because I miss it. I can discuss the cute things the kids do and say with my parents and friends and neighbors, but it's still not the same as doing it with their mother. I have seen how this (lack of kid-related communication) frustrates her in her writings to me, but I'm sure she doesn't understand why it frustrates her. Plus she would say that we should be able to do that even if we're not married, and that I'm immature for not doing it.

She doesn't understand and buy into the concept of emotional needs, and that POSOM is cake-eating--that she is only meeting some of his needs while OMW meets the others. Unfortunately, neither of them (OMW and the SCQ) is strong enough to break out of it on their own.

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I find it very interesting she still makes contact with you full stop.

My take is that the affair will never last and SCQ will wake up and want you back.
I still think that this is likely, B, but I don't have much hope that it will happen on any kind of timeframe that will be useful to me. But thanks for the, what are they, kind thoughts? Hopeful thoughts? smile Sometimes I start to feel defensive about the whole "it's time to quit" thing.

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BTW, it was crappy of her to lie to her kids about the puzzle. They know, they'll remember.
This is where it gets frustrating. It just shows how easy it's become for her to lie to the kids. I keep wishing someone would call her on it--LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE DOING. YOU LIED TO YOUR CHILD. WHY? TO PROTECT WHOSE FEELINGS? And, of course, that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of morality and decision-making. Probably no one can penetrate the Fog. I'm sure the only one she listens to is POSOM because he's still saying the things she wants to hear. But it would sure be nice to know that someone tried. It's where Plan FU frustrations come from. "You mean you STILL don't get it?"

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The similarities with my own ex are creepy, lecturing emails and all.
You'd think that these similarities and the whole Wayward Script thing would make it easier to treat waywards. As I type that, it would make it easier to treat them, but only if they want to be treated, and they don't. That's the problem.

She sent me an email this morning asking me if I'd decided whether to sign the MSA or pay her lawyer to make the changes. No response.

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rashes on their faces
DD5 has a rash on her face at the moment that I'm pretty sure results from pacifier use. She's five years old, but the SCQ still lets her sleep with a pacifier. DD5 gave it up at my house a long time ago.

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I wonder if SD messes up gift wrapping as bad as chocolate milk and carrots?
One more damn thing I've had to learn. Wrapping presents used to be her job, but I have become proficient at it. Except for the use of bows. And yarn, and all that stuff. Maybe I'll take a class.

I have tons of Christmas wrapping paper. The schools sell it for fund-raising every year, and of course I can't remember what I have in the closet and buy some more, so now I have lots. Then we usually travel for Christmas, and presents have to be unwrapped, so I don't even get to use any of it! Maybe I'll just start using extra layers.

I can happily report, however, that there have been no injuries or psychological trauma resulting from my package-wrapping abilities, or lack thereof. At least not that I'm aware of, and if they don't get reported to me, what am I supposed to do?

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I'm jealous
Yeah, I hear you, SL. Last night, I dreamed about Women. I went through that whole Want-To-Find-Someone urge a couple of weeks ago, and it seems to have passed. All I seem to want to do with my free time now is make wooden puzzles.

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So, what does a sippy cup challenged, Lunch box ignoring, carrot rotting, dryer sheet missing, rash producing, chocolate milk mistake making man have planned for the weekend??
DD5 has an 8 am soccer game. On a Saturday. I am not a morning person, nor are my children, so I can't say that any of us are particularly looking forward to it. After that, not sure. I probably ought to take them clothes shopping, but I really hate to inflict that on them. I remember how much I hated clothes shopping when I was a kid. It's San Diego. We should have a few more weeks of shorts weather. So we'll do something fun instead. The kids go back over on Sunday.

Hope everyone has a great weekend!
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/19/08 08:22 PM
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The kids go back over on Sunday.

Send em back dressed right out of Our Gang
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/19/08 08:30 PM


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Hey, what the [censored]'s going on in here? Some good discussion going on, and then BC and Chrisner show up, and then the topic of gift wrap goes into the gutter?
Consider it like intermission entertaiment for us while we wait for the next email telling us what you've not done correctly for the day! laugh

I'm so with you on being able to talk about the kids - this is a HUGE thing with Drac
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Plus she would say that we should be able to do that even if we're not married, and that I'm immature for not doing it.

He has said as much to me. It's become obvious to me that his desired interactions with me go no further than wanting me to meet this need for him. Yes it meets a need for me, too, but it's not enough, so don't cave it it Guy.

I am sure your method of clothes shopping isn't nearly as tramatic as you recall from your own childhood. Set a time limit for the trip, stick to only 1 or 2 stores, and do what you can. It's the all day marathons that really creates the stress on them. OR for the littlest ones, do the shopping without them. They will love anything you pick out!

You have a great weekend, too!
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/19/08 08:42 PM
Have the children's dentist tell SCD (dumb-brain) that the pacifier is detrimental to child's dentition and mouth formation. That pacifier needs to go. Then, work out a plan to do give it up....mine daughter gave all of hers to Santa for distribution to children who needed them - except for one bukey {as she called it} which she kept for a few more months before losing.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/19/08 10:29 PM
I finally sent a reply. Her latest email was this morning:

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Have you decided whether or not you are paying for the MSA changes that you want or you are signing the original MSA?

My reply: "No."

That ought to go over well, but at least she knows I saw her email.


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Consider it like intermission entertaiment for us while we wait for the next email telling us what you've not done correctly for the day!
I'm only joking. Any information or entertainment that my thread can provide is great. Somebody doesn't like it, though, because my thread rating dropped from four stars to three stars. I really don't give a rip about the rating. . . except that having 4-stars made it easier for me to find my thread from the index. Now I have to look harder.

Bugs, I don't think I have ever taken the kids clothes shopping--I just go on my own and buy things that ought to fit or will fit at some point. Hence the Our Gang look, I guess. Wait. They don't look like that!

Cinders, I'm the one that takes the kids to the dentist. Having the doctor tell DS8 was effective. . . when he turned four, I think. I'm not really worried about it--the dentist already put me on notice that she will need braces.
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/19/08 10:46 PM
SD,

Just dropping by to say HI. I appreciate your sharing the ups and downs, and the humour.

..and can relate, too....similar issues with WS.... the 'lashing' out because LIFE is not how they PLANNED it to be.... but the TRUTH hurts too much to face it!

...ohhhh... and the 'wanting to share' about the boys....HUGE! ...he must be biting his fingers over it, it's sooo obvious! ....but alas... not enough for him to make a move...to clean up the mess!

....so it helps to know we're not....ALONE!? :crosseyedcrazy:

Posted By: believer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/19/08 10:50 PM
Guy - I think you are an outstanding dad. And I think wifey will want to reconnect with you.

In the meantime, I think I would put something in your kids backpacks that would make SCQ take notice. Maybe you could throw a dead frog in there, or a potato growing sprouts.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/20/08 03:04 AM
Thanks, guys.

Quote
Maybe you could throw a dead frog in there, or a potato growing sprouts.
LOL. You know, I had some expired potatoes recently. Finally figured out where the smell was coming from.
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/20/08 03:30 AM
SD,

Quote
Finally figured out where the smell was coming from.

...LOL...glad to know it doesn't JUST happen to me.... and it's happened enough times...that I now RECOGNIZE the smell...LOL!

You know, SD....I am sitting hear in front of the computer, and for a few minutes I really didn't know whether I wanted to cry or laugh about the situation we are in.... even after so long! crazy

...and only here, do I know, you will understand what I am talking about and how I feel... sigh

...and if, for a moment, I think back on our past struggles and that at some level THIS will remain a part of us, and DO feel overwhelmed... thinking of people like you, SD and others whose committment to family is UNDENIABLE, it helps me to find the courage and strength to carry on....

...so, I just wanted to say: THANKS! hugSD hug

...I feel kind of MUSHY tonight...I am not sure why...but it really doesn't matter...

Have a great weekend.






Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/20/08 04:15 AM
Originally Posted by lunamare
...I feel kind of MUSHY tonight...I am not sure why...but it really doesn't matter...

:MrEEk: :MrEEk: NOT EVEN GONNA TOUCH THAT ONE!!!!!!! :MrEEk: :MrEEk:
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/20/08 12:40 PM
...in my...HEART...CIND :RollieEyes:

Quote
NOT EVEN GONNA TOUCH THAT ONE!!!!!!!

uhuh
should I...
should I not...
should I...
should I not...
should I...
should I not...
crazy
SHOULD I...

...ask Cind what SHE had in mind!!??? grin
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/20/08 12:46 PM
C'mon now girls, let's keep SD's thread clean....
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/20/08 08:22 PM
How much do you dare me....to post something hilarious and gutteresque? faint rotflmao naughty :RollieEyes: uhuh TEEF :MrEEk: skeptical

Until I get an answer on that, here's a Sippy Cup Song
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/20/08 09:58 PM
How much do you dare me....to post something hilarious and gutteresque?

OK, I take the bait. I double-dog dare you!
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/21/08 01:03 AM
Still waiting for cinder's gutter post. But I finally found the sippy cup story (how come every time I think those words, it's to the tune of "Smelly Cat"?) and I just gotta tell our sippy cup story.

Some of you may know that when our DS6's were born, I had severe medical problems and the babies were taken care of by rotations of my mom, my sister, and a couple of my aunts. My aunts are experienced moms... well come to think of it, my MOM should be, too... well I dunno who knew what or when they knew it, but when they finally left the kids in our care, someone forgot to tell us that those plastic valve things actually come out! Or else they didn't know it to start with.

I dunno how long it was before we discovered that those things come out, maybe months, but I'll tell you that they were black with mold. :MrEEk: That our babies had been drinking out of. sick

Our kids never did get to be the over-protected firstborns that never breathe a speck of dust or eat a gram of dirt. :crosseyedcrazy:

BTW, they've survived so far.
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/21/08 01:16 AM
Educational Video from India
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/21/08 01:30 AM
:MrEEk: rotflmao

Make sure you watch to point 4:36...

... as a matter of fact, there's an even more :MrEEk: moment but I ain't a-gonna tell ya where...
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/21/08 03:24 AM
Hey, all you people who pray...this isn't funny but it's something my children need. Their dad's father is in the hospital with a fever. He has a small cell lung cancer which is really bad and he's about at the end of the survival range given his diagnosis. Their grandmother is sick w/ a stomach virus or something. Lift them up, please.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/21/08 04:13 AM
Done. *hugs* to you, and prayers for your children's grandparents and family.
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/21/08 04:18 AM
thanks = = = now, I need to head to bed.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 12:21 AM
More good stuff over the weekend while I had the kids, I see. Welcome, Jayne.

Sippy Cup. . . Sippy Cup . . . how have they been washing you?

Yep. It works.

I deliberately held off on checking email until after I had transferred the kids on Sunday. Sure enough, the reply:

Quote
Fine don't decide. I will take the next step and it will have a deadline and the consequences will be court and my asking for attorney fees.

I spent most of Sunday trying to defuse the trigger. Why am I getting worked up? She can't hurt me--even if I wind up paying the costs, so what? Let it go Let it go Let it go. Long walk on the beach. Making puzzles in the garage. Maybe I should have added a massage.

I talked with my lawyer today and finally sent her a reply:

Quote
I was waiting to hear back from my lawyer, who was going to talk to your lawyer, who hadn't returned his call. My lawyer left another message today.

My understanding was that the document circulated was for corrections. My lawyer tells me that this is how it is done. There was no stalling or attempting to be difficult or anything like that. I was trying to follow the process as I understand it.

There was never any discussion with my lawyer about signing that document because it is wrong. Misspellings and the comma aside (the comma changes the meaning of the sentence, but I don't really expect anyone else to recognize that), the document contains items that were never brought up.

In the letter of intent (June 9) the proposal states in legalese that I will buy you out for $[a bunch of], and you will sign transfer deed, which is what we agreed to. But then in the draft MSA there are several pages (paragraphs 23, 24, and 25) devoted to the sale of the house? When was that ever on the table? Why would that be included in the MSA? And, more importantly, why would it be appropriate to leave it in the document after you have already received your money?

On another note, the overall tone of the emails you sent last Saturday lies somewhere between condescending and insulting. I don't think I've done anything to warrant this kind of treatment from you, and I'm really not interested in getting into email arguments with you, so I ask you again to not send this kind of emotionally-charged email. If you persist, my next course of action would be to forward your emails to an intermediary and have them only forward me content dealing with emergency or logistics.

I guess we'll see.

My theory about the source of the frustration is that it wasn't the I love you from DD5 during the soccer game. It was the fact that after the Big Happy Family trip to Seaworld POSOM and his kids went to their house while the SCQ and my kids stayed at her apartment. Maybe because she knows how they feel about going to his house? And who was responsible for telling her that?

I know I've asked this before, but it's a somewhat constant whine now. When does my life stop being about This? When do I stop being the Dad who has to muddle through on his own because his wife had an affair and left? Lots of anger still simmering there.

Yoga now. Hope everyone else's week started better than mine.
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 01:19 AM
Hey, I'm still muddling through some things because my children's dad chose to have multiple EAs and to leave because he hadn't been happy in years so he was afraid to miss this chance to maybe be happy. puke

On other things, I'm doing really well.

And it's been so many years it isn't funny.

Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 01:21 AM
Quote
I know I've asked this before, but it's a somewhat constant whine now. When does my life stop being about This? When do I stop being the Dad who has to muddle through on his own because his wife had an affair and left? Lots of anger still simmering there.

SD, I ask myself a similar question everyday. When will I ever stop thinking about this, and why am I the one that has to deal with all of DD's issues, work 16 hour days to survive, and be the one to continue life's path alone. It does suck wind.

The SCQ is just vicious. One day I hope that you can get a personalized license plate that reads "THX SCQ" It works either way....

hug
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 01:39 AM
Quote
If you persist, my next course of action would be to forward your emails to an intermediary

Oh please SD, make it me! I really want to be the intermediary. Please!

Nice response!!

You made her look like a fool. Well, how hard is that?.....but still!!

She is a real legal eagle huh?

Oh please SD, make it me! I really want to be the intermediary. Please! Please!!!

Quote
My theory about the source of the frustration is that it wasn't the I love you from DD5 during the soccer game. It was the fact that after the Big Happy Family trip to Seaworld POSOM and his kids went to their house while the SCQ and my kids stayed at her apartment. Maybe because she knows how they feel about going to his house? And who was responsible for telling her that?

It's both I believe. I really do. Those words from DD5 hit her hard SD.


Quote
I know I've asked this before, but it's a somewhat constant whine now. When does my life stop being about This? When do I stop being the Dad who has to muddle through on his own because his wife had an affair and left? Lots of anger still simmering there.

When you choose it to be different. And not until.


For all of you. Get a copy of Aaron Copland's Finale from The Tender Land; The Promise of Living (Eugene Ormandy and the Phili is my favorite).

Honestly do this. And when you feel this way play it loud. And while you listen think of your future and how you want it.

Try it. It will help.

Oh yeah, Oh please SD, make it me! I really want to be the intermediary. Please! Please!!!
She would love working with me!!
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 01:48 AM
Oh, I vote for Chrisner. I think he would make one fine intermediary......

And I bet he's free too......
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 01:55 AM
Quote
And I bet he's free too......

I am cheap but not easy!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 02:08 AM
Quote
When you choose it to be different. And not until.

That was downright BR-ish. I knew that was the answer, of course, I just felt like whining. Or venting. Or is it whinging?

At the end of final relaxation in my yoga class I almost started laughing out loud because I realized I want to date a mental health professional or yoga instructor with an Australian accent. Or Kiwi, or South African, or Brit, I suppose. And I'm working with a French girl now (young mother so I am careful), but she has a really nice accent.

Quote
Oh please SD, make it me! I really want to be the intermediary.
Wow. The mind boggles at the possibilities here. The words Mother of All Intermediaries float to the surface.

I'll keep you posted.
Quote
That was downright BR-ish

That might have cost you your intermediary

Quote
but she has a really nice accent

I'm sure her accents are quite lovely hurray

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 05:20 AM
Quote
For all of you. Get a copy of Aaron Copland's Finale from The Tender Land; The Promise of Living (Eugene Ormandy and the Phili is my favorite).
Orchestral or vocal?
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 11:44 AM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
I know I've asked this before, but it's a somewhat constant whine now. When does my life stop being about This? When do I stop being the Dad who has to muddle through on his own because his wife had an affair and left? Lots of anger still simmering there.


Well.. my weekend etc wasn't much better, DS was sick so that entailed a brief conversation at the end of the nightly phone call with WW.

She's never in any hurry to get off the phone these days, but I make our conversations brief and to the point, and purely about DS anymore. I think it irritates her, but I really don't care.

As for the above quote.. I ask myself this question nearly every morning. I just know that one day, when I can wake up and not run fictional conversations and variations on plan FU through my head.. I'll be well/whole again.

I think even more than that.. and why I understand the whinging <G> so much is that anymore I get more irritated at myself for even giving her the emotional energy. She doesn't deserve it.. I -know- it's a waste of my time and headspace.. but yet the thoughts keep coming in.

Time might be one answer, but I'm sick of waiting for it..

Will might be the best answer.. it's a new day, yesterday is in the past and nothing can change it..

Remember, NOW is the most important time..

How's your breathing SD?
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by Jamesus
As for the above quote.. I ask myself this question nearly every morning. I just know that one day, when I can wake up and not run fictional conversations and variations on plan FU through my head.. I'll be well/whole again.

I've been having a very hard time with this lately. It seems like I'm enmeshed in thoughts of Plan FU and can't shake them. Dealing with a cheating and self entitled unrepentant woman who looks to take your money at every opportunity and asks why I "can't just get over it" has been a bit draining.

I'll share more on my own thread, but since we're talking here about how we can shake the funk, I thought I'd chime in and ask if anyone has advice on how to do so since it seems like there are several of us who are dealing with the same.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 12:36 PM
SD,

Most excellent response! Waywards absolutely hate it when it's so calmly pointed out to them how unreasonable they are being. What's she going to say to that email? My guess is nothing. Good job!

Chris/BR -
Quote
When you choose.
Nice!

I also have 3 words for you -

VOTE FOR CHRISNER!

ha! You being the intermediary would be something I'd pay good money to watch!

SD, I understand so well, as does most everyone here. The anger with having this energy expended on her is beyond frustrating, isn't it? Unfortunately, I find myself in the same place more often than I'd like in terms of dealing with Drac.

As Mimi pointed out, it is a by-product of any interaction with the self indulgent wayward.

Today will be a better day.

and again, I must say

VOTE FOR CHRISNER!
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Quote
For all of you. Get a copy of Aaron Copland's Finale from The Tender Land; The Promise of Living (Eugene Ormandy and the Phili is my favorite).
Orchestral or vocal?

Orchestral
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 01:16 PM
Hi SD,

Quote
Oh, I vote for Chrisner. I think he would make one fine intermediary......

Me, too.

Seriously, SD...any reason why you don't take Chrisner up on his offer? I think he would make one fine intermediary..... you surely could use the BREAK...

I don't have one....being an intermediary can be a major challenge...on HOW to remain...DETACHED! mad ...so finding volunteers is not easy....

....but it looks like Chrisner seems up for it cool....

...or, am I missing something here? smirk
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 01:21 PM
Originally Posted by lunamare
...or, am I missing something here? smirk


Yup..

Most intermediaries aren't armed..


Chris' wit vs a defenseless opponent..

I almost tingle with glee..

[Smithers]
Eeeeeeeeeeeeeexcellent....
[/Smithers]
Quote
[Smithers]
Eeeeeeeeeeeeeexcellent....
[/Smithers]

That's Burns not Smithers

If you're going to be an amigo, you have to get your sophmoric immature references to simple minded humor straight!

lesson over

carry on grasshopper stickout



Agree with Chrisner. Once you make the choice, and it IS a choice, you'll feel better. Your life will only be about you and your children anymore. Hold on for as long as you can, but do not sacrifice your well-being for it. I think your response to the SCQ was excellent. Truly, LET IT GO. This burden is not your to carry--it's hers--let her have it.

I've moved on in a big way, by making the choice. I know I said I would fight until the Z divorces me, but I'm done. For me, it's been a long battle, and I'm ready to walk away. For others, they still have some fight left in them.

I have a feeling once the Z is served with the D papers, sometime in the next two weeks, he's gonna start rethinking, at least for a moment, the finality of it. Problem is, I'm doneo. Kaput.

Although it's not what I wanted, I'm happier than I have been in a long time. It's been liberating to lurch forward for myself. I cannot carry the Z anymore--I never should have been.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 03:53 PM
Quote
I'm doneo. Kaput.

I want what she's having.....
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 03:57 PM
Quote
I cannot carry the Z anymore
Maybe that's why it's so exhausting. I've been carrying the burden of the marriage all this time, and it's really heavy. I think that the SCQ has been a burden for way longer than I'd like to acknowledge.
Quote
Most intermediaries aren't armed..


Chris' wit vs a defenseless opponent..


Little Bill Daggett: "Look son, being a good shot, being quick with a pistol, that don't do no harm, but it don't mean much next to being cool-headed. A man who will keep his head and not get rattled under fire, like as not, he'll kill ya. It ain't so easy to shoot a man anyhow, especially if the son-of-a-[censored] is shootin' back at you." (From Unforgiven)

Chrisner for Hired Gun Intermediary
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 04:33 PM
Quote
I've been carrying the burden of the marriage all this time, and it's really heavy. I think that the SCQ has been a burden for way longer than I'd like to acknowledge.

It's good for you to recognize this, SD.

Your work to recover your M and to maintain your love for the SCQ through all of this has been down right amazing, but not even Superman could carry that load forever.
Posted By: hopenpray Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 04:40 PM
I find my dilemma is I'm praying daily for my marriage to be restored and its hard to then switch to a mode of forgetting about my WH.I feel if I truely let go of WH and mentally moved on...how can I be sincere in praying for my marriage to be restored?

Does this make sense? Its a spiritual and mental battle for me ....
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by BetrayedCajun
Quote
[Smithers]
Eeeeeeeeeeeeeexcellent....
[/Smithers]

That's Burns not Smithers

If you're going to be an amigo, you have to get your sophmoric immature references to simple minded humor straight!

lesson over

carry on grasshopper stickout


*hangs head in shame*

Dangit.. I -know- that... It's been a rough morning a'ight?

[Napoleon]
GOSH!
[/Napoleon]
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Quote
I cannot carry the Z anymore
Maybe that's why it's so exhausting. I've been carrying the burden of the marriage all this time, and it's really heavy. I think that the SCQ has been a burden for way longer than I'd like to acknowledge.


Wow.. must be something in the air..

I was looking at the new 'family' photo I've put up in the living room.. it's just me, DS, and DD.. and we look happy. DS is practically beaming through the glass at me.. and I thought to myself possibly for the first time in all of this 'Yanno self.. that right there is a family... and one you can be happy with.'

And it got me to thinking..

I was pretty well off as a single guy with a daughter when I met WW.. sharing a house with a good friend and his son, driving a SCHUWEET car.. gigging with the band and playing some pretty major shows..

I was happy...

As blissful as I thought I was when I met WW.. things immediately changed.. I no longer had a surplus of funds for things because I was 'entertaining' and dating and such... she was pretty much broke so I always paid.. we moved in together and had 1 month of combined income before DS was born... then it was just me supporting a family of 5 on an increasingly thin salary considering with the move it was now an hour and a half to and from work rather than 20 minutes.

So when it came time for WW to go back to work.. she put out a few token applications but whinged and complained that w/o a college degree she may as well stay home because her job would basically pay for daycare and that was it.. So... we encouraged her to go to school..

A year and a half to complete a 2 year degree.. graduated with 3.86 GPA.. smart smart woman.. we were all so proud.. and she immediately picks up a job and we start looking for a house..

I lose my job 2 months later, only to end up in a new situation, closer to home and making twice what I was making before.. she lands at the law office and suddenly we're on track to be off the debt hook within 5 years..

Less than a year later.. *poof*.. and if I thought we were in dire financial straits before.. just look where we are now.

You know... honestly.. WW has been a real drag and a great cause of stress for me.. from worrying about how to cover bills, to making sure the kids had nice clothes and the essentials..

And yanno what else? Once the D is final... a majority of that stress can be let go..

I almost look forward to it..

I won't have had this little stress in my life in over 5 years..
I think you are right, James, SOMETHING must be in the air.

I was sitting at the kitchen table doing homework last night. DDs had gone to bed. The house was quiet and calm at 10:30pm. A lamp was putting out a soft light and candles provided the smell of Cinnabuns - the smell of dinner slowly dissipating.

And my thoughts turned to HIM.

Thinking how long it has been since he sat at our table with the family, eating dinner and teasing. How long it has been since a kind word was spoken between the two of us. How long it has been since we had those quiet moments after DDs had gone to bed. How long it has been since he stood right THERE in our house.

Almost bringing myself to tears again.

Realistically, I know that it was just not that great with us. My mind grabs onto those little moments that I remember. The few and far between ones. The ones that made up for all the crappy treatment in between. I was willing to accept so little from him.

I had my memory stick in my laptop and on that I have my postings from here. I reread just before my plan B started and awhile after that. I remember how tormented we both were.

Looking back, I can literally see his anguish. And see how close he was to returning.

It made me want to reach out to him again. To that wounded soul that was so lost. To see if he is still out there.

But I cannot and I will not. My REAL H is dead, only WxH exists now.

It's worse than a death. With death you can always wish for one more day. You know it can never happen, but you can imagine all the wonderful things you would do if you had just one more day with your loved one.

With infidelity, you wish for that one more day. The one more day to make it right and do the best you can do - one more day to love like you have never loved before.

Acceptance that this will never happen is hard to achieve as your loved one still exists. Your brain repeats: It COULD happen........if you just hang on long enough......if you want it bad enough.

It's grief, just as in a death. But unlike the finality of death, hope remains in this situation. It's the hope that prolongs the grief.

Even after all this time and all the bull......I still want to know that he does not hate me and does not REALLY believe all those things he said. I want to believe that he still can be a decent man and love his daughters and treat them well.

I, too, am almost better off financially than when we were together. It's easier to have a budget when you are the only one responsible for it and there isn't another person out spending in different areas.

Our lives will improve and it won't always be about THIS. D does help, but it doesn't demolish those feelings.

Time....good old father time will continue to work his magic.

Hang in there and breathe, sdguy.

Fox
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 07:34 PM
Well....

Quote
I find my dilemma is I'm praying daily for my marriage to be restored and its hard to then switch to a mode of forgetting about my WH.I feel if I truely let go of WH and mentally moved on...how can I be sincere in praying for my marriage to be restored?

Does this make sense? Its a spiritual and mental battle for me ....

yep....and the battle goes on...for some time... or NONE of us would be here...this long!:RollieEyes:

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 07:55 PM
The SCQ's predictable gobbledygook response:

Quote
The house sale was in there because you hadn't refinanced from the lawyers point of view. What if you hadn't been approved which is possible in this market. But there is also language in there that says if you get the refinance done then the sale isn't relevant.

Nothing in your changes changes what was in the prelim document that you agreed to. What was new in the MSA? Those things weren't mentioned in your return comments

The prelim doc as you say was done on 6/9. It is now 3 months longer. If you get this signed and finalized you will only have to deal with me for children things and all of this other stuff goes away. This has taken almost 2 years to complete when really it should have done in less than 1 year.

It seems that the only way you do something is to be pestered. Why prolong this.

and my reply:

Quote
I could argue the logistics and the details and the delays with you, but I won't. Here's the bottom line: you're the one who wants to be divorced, not me.

I choose marriage. Us being together is what's best for DS8 and DD5 and me and you. I still believe with all my heart that our marriage can be better than it ever was before, and that all it really needs is for both of us to want it. I continue to respect our marriage vows. All of our lives could be so much better than they are now. I could say so much more, but I expect that you don't want to hear it.

If you still choose divorce, you'll have to make the changes. Then I'll sign the document.
My lawyer called me and told me her lawyer will be making the changes. The end is near.

Quote
Looking back, I can literally see his anguish. And see how close he was to returning.

It made me want to reach out to him again. To that wounded soul that was so lost. To see if he is still out there.

But I cannot and I will not. My REAL H is dead, only WxH exists now.

It's worse than a death. With death you can always wish for one more day. You know it can never happen, but you can imagine all the wonderful things you would do if you had just one more day with your loved one.

With infidelity, you wish for that one more day. The one more day to make it right and do the best you can do - one more day to love like you have never loved before.

Acceptance that this will never happen is hard to achieve as your loved one still exists. Your brain repeats: It COULD happen........if you just hang on long enough......if you want it bad enough.

It's grief, just as in a death. But unlike the finality of death, hope remains in this situation. It's the hope that prolongs the grief.

Even after all this time and all the bull......I still want to know that he does not hate me and does not REALLY believe all those things he said. I want to believe that he still can be a decent man and love his daughters and treat them well.
Yes. All of that, Foxy. You nailed it. And you can see that I still reach out from time to time, but I'm pretty sure that Jennifer would be proud.

Quote
I find my dilemma is I'm praying daily for my marriage to be restored and its hard to then switch to a mode of forgetting about my WH.I feel if I truely let go of WH and mentally moved on...how can I be sincere in praying for my marriage to be restored?

Does this make sense? Its a spiritual and mental battle for me ....
Absolutely, hopenpray. I have struggled with that from the beginning. How to Let Go without Giving Up or Being Done.

Quote
Orchestral
Oh, good. The first couple of tracks I pulled up on ITunes were vocal, and, um, weren't my thing. Orchestral is better.


Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 08:06 PM
Quote
The end is near.

AN end is near. A new beginning as well.

Quote
Orchestral is better.

Much better.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 08:08 PM
Quote
AN end is near. A new beginning as well.
So true. Thanks, coach.
Originally Posted by guy smiley
Originally Posted by coach
AN end is near. A new beginning as well.
So true. Thanks, coach.

Yup. That's where I be. On to the new beginning...
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 08:45 PM
Hows this for my first try:



Sippy Cup Queen,

As SD’s new intermediary I have determined to forward to SD the following edited version of your whining tripe. I believe this edited version more succinctly captures the real value of this communication.


The house sale was in there because you hadn't refinanced from the lawyers point of view. What if you hadn't been approved which is possible in this market. But there is also language in there that says if you get the refinance done then the sale isn't relevant.

Nothing in your changes changes what was in the prelim document that you agreed to. What was new in the MSA? Those things weren't mentioned in your return comments

The prelim doc as you say was done on 6/9. It is now 3 months longer. If you get this signed and finalized you will only have to deal with me for children things and all of this other stuff goes away. This has taken almost 2 years to complete when really it should have done in less than 1 year.

It seems that the only way you do something is to be pestered. Why prolong this.


Thank you, and I really look forward to your next spiteful, patronizing diatribe to share with my friends at the bar. They have become real fans! Sorry about your phone number getting Sharpied above the urinal along with the message about your ummmm……..special services and ur…….techniques.

Until next time,

Chrisner

Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 09:04 PM

I give that first try a 9.95

I had to deduct marks for "patronizing diatribe". Although I personally LOVE that phrase, I am concerned that use of large words may further confuse the SCQ at this point in time.

I think it was concise, to the point, will have maximum desired effect

AND

all my girls at the bar will think it's VERY funny!
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 09:07 PM
Quote
I had to deduct marks for "patronizing diatribe".

Oh no, I think it's much better to at least have a moment when she has to tilt her head like Pete the Pup with that WTF??? look.
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 09:11 PM
rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao
:crosseyedcrazy: :crosseyedcrazy: :crosseyedcrazy: :crosseyedcrazy: :crosseyedcrazy: :crosseyedcrazy: :crosseyedcrazy: :crosseyedcrazy: :crosseyedcrazy: :crosseyedcrazy: :crosseyedcrazy: :crosseyedcrazy: :crosseyedcrazy: :crosseyedcrazy: :crosseyedcrazy: :crosseyedcrazy:
rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 09:32 PM

Quote
Oh no, I think it's much better to at least have a moment when she has to tilt her head like Pete the Pup with that WTF??? look.

Point taken.

I revise my score to a perfect 10!

Especially now that I have visions of her scrambling to find a dictionary.

I have visions of the movie "Clueless" where Cher makes a point of teaching her friend a new word every day out of the dictionary that they have to find ways to use in conversation!

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 10:10 PM
Quote
Hows this for my first try:
You get the job. That's pretty much what I thought of her email, although it still kept me awake for a while last night.

Fox said this on her thread:

Quote
I believe so completely that the A will end that I think it holds me back from healing completely. While I am not willing to take him back as he is, I REALLY WANT to see the A implode. I want to see how he will react, what changes he will make, if any, if he will heal his relationships with DDs or if he will just find the next woman to fill the empty spot.
When it happens to the SCQ, she will be left with nothing. She has invested everything in POSOM. She has no friends, her family is largely worthless.

The thought tickling the back of my head "Why do I want to pick up that burden again?"
Quote
The thought tickling the back of my head "Why do I want to pick up that burden again?"

You don't.

As I read again what I wrote in my quote above, I had a bit of a light bulb go on - lit by Bugs reply to me on my thread.

Drac's A DID end.....and she is still as confused as the rest of us. (correct me if I am wrong, Bugs)

Rock bottom isn't one moment in time. It, too, is a marathon. They will struggle, they will reach for justifications, they could get WORSE as reality hits them.

Some will use that as a reason to reflect on themselves and identify THEIR part in it, take that opportunity to change and to grow.

Others will flail and thrash and REFUSE to take responsibility, continuing to blame everyone else for their lives.

I think sometimes I expect when WxH A ends that it will be like a snap of the fingers and he will recognize what he as done - and quickly move to make it all right.

I think it dawns slowly........and when they finally realize what they have done, it takes a long time for them to educate themselves enough to know what they need to do to heal themselves - and then to look outside of themselves to heal others.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/23/08 10:57 PM
Quote
Rock bottom isn't one moment in time. It, too, is a marathon. They will struggle, they will reach for justifications, they could get WORSE as reality hits them.
SL is probably jumping up and down right now. This is the Z.

Quote
I think it dawns slowly........and when they finally realize what they have done, it takes a long time for them to educate themselves enough to know what they need to do to heal themselves - and then to look outside of themselves to heal others.
And when I think about it this way (and I think you are right), I think that I should view this whole thing as a Giant Get Out of Jail Free card. Do I think that the SCQ has any interest whatsoever in the kind of introspection needed to recover from what she has done? Or an ability to do so even if she wanted to? The answer is no. She would much rather keep her head in the sand and wish everything to be "fine." I suspect that this is why she is holding on so tightly to her justifications/choices.

Gotta run. My Developing Institutional Endeavors to Perfect Organizational Solutions Over Management meeting starts in a few.
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/24/08 02:32 AM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Gotta run. My Developing Institutional Endeavors to Perfect Organizational Solutions Over Management meeting starts in a few.

rotflmao
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/24/08 01:28 PM


Quote
Drac's A DID end.....and she is still as confused as the rest of us. (correct me if I am wrong, Bugs)

Yes, I definately resemble that description! Wish I didn't, but I do!

Quote
I think sometimes I expect when WxH A ends that it will be like a snap of the fingers and he will recognize what he as done - and quickly move to make it all right.

That is EXACTLY what I wanted to have happen. It didn't.
Quote
I think it dawns slowly........and when they finally realize what they have done, it takes a long time for them to educate themselves enough to know what they need to do to heal themselves - and then to look outside of themselves to heal others.

Steve told me that Drac is 'uneducated' - why would I be surprised that when he acts in an uneducated manner?? They need to WANT to be educated. It requires some desire on their part to see/agree that recovery IS possible. Without a proper education, most can't/don't believe it is remotely possible, thus they continue on their merry self justified lives.






Good morning, all

Quote
They need to WANT to be educated. It requires some desire on their part to see/agree that recovery IS possible. Without a proper education, most can't/don't believe it is remotely possible, thus they continue on their merry self justified lives.

I think some of them don't even realize that education is an option. To some of them, life just is what it is. You can't fix it, you're not really an "owner" in it, it just happens to you.

Some also don't realize that you can heal without recovering the marriage.

WxH could make amends with me and not have to marry me all over again. I could forgive him and still move on with my life.

I agree, sdguy, I think this is My Get Out of Jail Free Card, too. I'm not up for the turmoil anymore. I refuse to carry him and I am certain that is what would happen if he were to return and I was to agree to reconcile.

I just can't do it anymore.

I'd love to see him heal and mend some of those bridges, though.

I think that is years out. Long after DDs and I have found a way to do it without him.

Fox
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/24/08 01:56 PM
Yeah, that is what I found. X never apologized for the turmoil and destruction but he began being decent and it was easy for me to forgive and go on.
It's a slow burnout, IMO. The embers of justification take a long time to die. The Z had the opportunity to become educated--with Jennifer or Steve. He chose not to. That, in and of itself, was a huge clue that it would be, in the least, an uphill battle to recover. I was STILL willing to give it a go, though.

Now... not so much (actually not at all).

I do have a get out of purgatory, um, I mean, JAIL, free card, and am cashing it in. I still have a wee bit of hope that, someday, the Z will have his epiphany, for his sake, for his kid's sake. It really is of no concern to me, personally, anymore. I won't damage myself any more than I already have for this marriage. These last three years have taken their toll--quite literally aged me.

Good thing is, I'm able to get some of that back. I'm exercising and eating much better these days. Dropping some more poundage, and looking fit. I feel great! Hope I can keep this up thru the winter. If my sister ever starts bringing home good money, we may actually be able to fit some skiing day trips in. THAT would be a hoot and a half.


Quote
I think it dawns slowly........and when they finally realize what they have done, it takes a long time for them to educate themselves enough to know what they need to do to heal themselves - and then to look outside of themselves to heal others.

You guys are definitely on to something. With my DH, after the 1st affair ended, I clapped my hands in glee thinking, "this was IT"... he was waking up and coming home. Wrong. After the 2nd affair ended, I wasn't so gleeful, certainly wary, but still thinking he would "wake up". Didn't happen.

It still took awhile for him to get there. Even when he first came home, it wasn't until he started reaching out to get some personal healing, that he was able to even think about healing us. After that, it came like a flood... the guilt, the horror, the regrets.

What happened with my DH was a longshot. It could have gone either way. He could have chosen to continue on with his downslide. I thank God everyday that he didn't and that our love has returned completely.

But on the other hand, it was also my choice to let him back in. At the time, I didn't know anything about MB. I just know I was weak and weary and uneducated.

If I had to do it over again... hard to say, knowing what I know now.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/24/08 05:05 PM
No response from the SCQ to my last email. Shocking.

As tempting as the Get Out of Jail Free card strategy seems sometimes, I can't say that I'm there yet. I still believe what I said in my last email to the SCQ and want to keep that philosophy at least until the judge signs the papers.

The answer to my question about why do I want to pick up that burden again came to me yesterday afternoon. Because I took a vow, for better or for worse.

I look around at some of the cases here, though, and see people who I think should grab that Get Out of Jail Free card and run with it. InHisCare (with the Bulldozer of Stupidity) was one of those, and I always felt it's what poor StillHurting should do. I expect it's how Sis feels now.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/24/08 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Because I took a vow, for better or for worse.


Right here with you SD..
Well, I feel like a schmo, because I took the same vow, and I cannot uphold it now. I filed for divorce. I made that move, even though i said I wouldn't. I don't want to know the Z anymore. He's a stranger, even if that's just the waywardness getting in his way.

I guess I'm just not strong enough, or more uncaring, but I felt like I was being abused for the last three years. I have had my breaking point, I can bend no more. I never shoulda been doing that in the first place. Lessons that took a long time to learn.

I would have seen EARLIER that the Z was too far gone, had I stopped bending every time he blew in like a breeze and out right back out again.

I dunno. I'm in a different place, I suppose, having so many false recoveries and dealing with multiple infidelities. That statment of "I can't do this anymore" was the straw...
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/24/08 05:46 PM
Quote
Well, I feel like a schmo, because I took the same vow, and I cannot uphold it now.
Oops. Sorry, I should have included you in the "Should Give Up Now" club, SL. Or should I say the Dynamic Unilateral Matrices Prove That Helium Enhances Zoos club.

You did everything you could and more, SL. You suffered horrifically, especially with the last false recovery. BR would say that you have more than earned your divorce. I'm relieved that you are Done and like hearing about how good you feel and the relief you're experiencing, so please don't start getting introspective or beating yourself up or feeling defensive because of what I said.

Everyone's road is different. There are no One Size Fits All approaches.
Quote
D ynamic U nilateral M atrices P rove T hat H elium E nhances Z oos club

Oh, that was just too fun.

One thing I'm really happy about, is that I'm okay with people disagreeing with me divorcing. If they don't like it, that's okay. They have their own shoes to walk in and their own mirrors to have to peer in. My reflection looks fine and dandy, and about 6lbs lighter and two inches around the waist smaller. wink
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/24/08 06:23 PM
SD,

You are a kind and caring man... who shows courage and integrity in the face of adversity.... and I am so sorry that SCQ can't see what she is giving up...for her, the kids, and you.

You are a rare pearl.

I don't post much, but want you to know that I appreciate the 'sharing' on your thread. It is extremely helpful to many of us here.

(((((((((SD))))))))
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/24/08 08:19 PM
Thanks very much for your kind words, Luna. And to all who read here.

I just heard from my lawyer that he has received the corrected MSA, and it's ready for signature. We made an appointment for Friday, which just happens to be my 16th wedding anniversary.

It's cool.

I've always been a big fan of irony and have to step back and admire it at work sometimes.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/24/08 08:28 PM
Quote
We made an appointment for Friday, which just happens to be my 16th wedding anniversary.

Okay, that's wierd.


How long does it take the courts to finalize?
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/24/08 08:55 PM
pat on the back, friend.

After all, my x wanted the divorce...he strayed, he wanted it, he moved out, he was antagonistic, I just had to fend for myself and heal to the point I could cope. So, I filed on his birthday. I couldn't think of anything he would rather have.+
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/24/08 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Thanks very much for your kind words, Luna. And to all who read here.

I just heard from my lawyer that he has received the corrected MSA, and it's ready for signature. We made an appointment for Friday, which just happens to be my 16th wedding anniversary.

It's cool.

I've always been a big fan of irony and have to step back and admire it at work sometimes.

hug

I admire you, you know.

All you long term plan Ber's have amazing testicular fortitude
sigh


hug

It sucks - no doubt about it.


Fox
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/24/08 10:04 PM
Quote
I just heard from my lawyer that he has received the corrected MSA, and it's ready for signature. We made an appointment for Friday, which just happens to be my 16th wedding anniversary.

It's cool.

I love your attitude about the irony. You are so much more kind than I.

My immediate thought was to sign it, put in in a box, wrap it in really pretty anniversary paper, top it would a beautiful bow to deliver to her personally,,,,,,,,,,,

Oh - - did I forget to mention the big steaming pile of poo that should be sitting on top of the signed MSA in the box? Don't forget that special touch!!


Posted By: Amazin Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/24/08 10:16 PM
SD,

I'm with ya...

Everyone has a different BULL $HIT threshold. And when you reach yours... you know it... and you say "Enough is enough”

BTW.... What’s SCQ?
Originally Posted by Amazin
BTW.... What’s SCQ?

It's not a what, it's a WHO? It's SD's WW--Stand for Sippy Cup Queen.

You'll have to go back quite a few pages to catch up. There was a sippy cup incident in which Guy did not use the appropriate autoclave settings, etc. and so on... :crosseyedcrazy:



Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/24/08 11:44 PM
I was inspired to actually go find the post, and it was on March 26 of last year. Page 38 of my thread, which now has 240 pages? Unreal. Has it really been this long?

It's worth reading mostly for Chrisner's responses:

How the SCQ Got Her Name

Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/25/08 08:18 AM
Thats not fair!

Chris sent me to page 19 and I had to read lots!

Have been reading on past and just got up to all the 'lawyer letters and correct sippy cup cleaning procedures.

Any good tips on keyboard cleaning? I keep spitting my drink on it laugh
Originally Posted by sdguy038
I was inspired to actually go find the post, and it was on March 26 of last year. Page 38 of my thread, which now has 240 pages? Unreal. Has it really been this long?

It's worth reading mostly for Chrisner's responses:

How the SCQ Got Her Name

I don't see it on page 38. I went back a couple of pages and still didn't see it. frown
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/25/08 06:52 PM
Read forward, not backwards!!! Hilarious!!!!
Originally Posted by Tabby1
Read forward, not backwards!!! Hilarious!!!!

Okay, I'm up to page 48 and I'm still not finding it. grumble
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/25/08 07:19 PM
I appologize in advance for the poor quoting.

Here is the first post by SDGuy introducing the subject:
Quote
I got an email today from WW. Because I am hypersensitive from recent contact, I am somewhat triggered. WW recently got a kid cell phone. I asked him to start using it so that I would know when it was him on the phone as opposed to WW. Here's the email:

"Thanks for the stuff. If you do use sippy cups with DD3 you might want to double check the covers before you use them. One you sent was still dirty with I'm chocolate milk. I'm guessing someone didn't take out the plastic valve and wash them separately.

The phone will be kept in DD's bag. DS7 agrees that he doesn't need to take it to school. It can be charged with the same charger as yours. The one that came with his phone I will be keeping here.

Also I will be giving my Verizon phone back to you soon (along with the charger which you can choose to use for DS7 or not). When I do you can start paying your Verizon bill from your own funds. My cell phone number is 760-xxx-xxxx."

Okay, so before I say anything, I will stipulate that the plan B thing for me to do is to ignore it and not overanalyze it the way I am about to (I'm human). Also, under no circumstances will I reply to it.

So, on the surface, this is only mildly poisonous. If she is moving on, she doesn't need to keep the cell phone in our family plan, and I find it somewhat hurtful to me because I don't want her to move on. But then I thought about it a little more.

She's the one who extended our plan 2 years when she got the kid phone a couple of months ago, and Now she wants to get rid of her phone? Plus, Saturday was the first time she called me from the Infideliphone. Then, Sunday, she let DS7 call me from that phone. Now she emails me with her New Cell Phone Number, which is no longer in my area code, but is in the area code where OM lives.

At the mediation on Thursday, I basically called her out that OM hasn't made any move to divorce his wife and potentially lied to WW about it. So now I'm wondering if this cell phone thing is her response. 'See? We are going to be together forever. We share the same cell phone plan (and I want to make sure that you know it).' It just seems like she's pushing the cell phone thing at me a little too hard. Or am I overreacting? It's okay--you can tell me.

Here's the response I'm not going to send: "It's really great that you share a cell phone plan with OM. Let me know if actually makes a move to divorce his wife so that he can legally be with you. Or on second thought, don't."

Okay. Back to dark. Me me me me me me me. Me!

Here is Christner's first hilarious response to the above post (it's on page 39):

Quote
“If you do use sippy cups with DD3 you might want to double check the covers before you use them. One you sent was still dirty with I'm chocolate milk. I'm guessing someone didn't take out the plastic valve and wash them separately.”

Here would be my email:

Dear Darling Wayward Wife,

Thank you for you concern regarding the care and maintenance of “Sippy Cups”. I can not describe the shame and humiliation I felt when you so lovingly pointed out the error in my neglect. To assure you that this will never happen again I have instituted the following measures:

1) Each sippy cup placed in a Tuttnauer model 2540MK steam autoclave ($ 4,994.00 ordered on your credit card) for the prescribed ten minute sterilization.
2) Each sippy cup will then swabbed for bacteria to be grown in a Parter Medical Products Model 3561 100mm Petri dishes.
3) Each Sippy Cup will be sealed and labeled with the corresponding Petri dish containing the bacteria sample.
4) After a ten day growth period the Petri dish growth medium will be inspected. Approved Sippy Cups will moved into the general use population of Sippy Cups.
5) Failed Sippy Cups will be returned to the Tuttnauer autoclave for re-sterilization.
6) Unacceptable bacterial growth will be forwarded to the University of Colorado Medical School for identification testing and bio-hazard disposal.

In addition I have contacted Richard Belanger who invented the “Sippy Cup” which he later licensed to Playtex for production. I bet you did not know that Mr. Belanger now serves as a design engineer at Adhesive Machinery, a company he helped form, and has been issued several patents related to glue guns. I also used your credit card to order one of Mr. Belanger newest glue gun designs. His take was as follows:

“Thoroughly clean the cup (especially the lid and plastic stopper) between uses. Liquid can easily become trapped in the nooks and crannies of a sippy cup and valve, leading to the growth of bacteria and mold. If you can't wash a sippy cup right away, try to at least give it a good rinse. If that's not possible, drain any remaining liquid and take it apart. Periodically check your lids and valves for damage or mold.”

When I told Mr. Belanger of my subtly more aggressive plan he replied, “Yeah, that should work too.”

Hopefully these steps will fully address your concern about the future care given the “Sippy Cups” under my authority. Thank you again for pointing out my woeful and hideous neglect.

Love and Kisses

Sdguy038

Here is another post from SDGuy with what is probably the very first reference to Sippy Cup Queen (page 40)

Quote
Wow, CJ. That's another great one. Thanks.

I've been thinking about the triggering and trying to figure out why things have been getting to me over the past couple of days. My actions have been okay, but my thoughts haven't. I've been obsessing about the Sippy Cup Queen.

I think the significant thing was at the mediation, when I found out that she doesn't know what's going on with OM's lack of divorce filing and that he has probably been lying to her. I didn't really know whether the infidels had some grand plan or reason why he hadn't filed for divorce, but at the mediation I found out that WW really doesn't know that he has to. Which means that almost certainly he's been lying to her. I know this is to be expected, but getting confirmation that he really is that big a POS and that she really is that clueless did something to me. Gave me hope? Or maybe just showed me an angle that I feel like I should be able to exploit somehow. The whole Problem-Solver-I-Should-Be-Able-To-Fix-This thing again.

It certainly threw me off track--to the point that I'm worrying about what she was doing at the baseball game and trying to discern meaning from the cell phone thing. I know what I need to do--get back to focusing on me. What she does is what she does. I Can't Fix It. Let it go. Be Still.

Thanks again for the suggestions and coaching. This place, you people, and the support you have given me have been such a blessing I can't imagine where I would be without it.

Here is another hilarious post from Chrisner:

Quote
Sippy Cup Email Number 2 (4 Days Later)


Dear Darling Wayward Wife,

Sensitive to your extreme concern, I did not want to leave you out of the loop regarding the ongoing Sippy Cup situation. There have been a couple minor setbacks in my plan but I really feel I have it under control now. Remember that the next time you see the kids that they can tend to exaggerate stories at their age.

The Tuttnauer Model 2540MK steam autoclave arrived yesterday and what a beautiful machine it was. It looks like something off the bridge of the Starship Enterprise. I wanted to start using it right away but discovered that it was wired for 230VAC 50/60 Hz and as you know the only available outlets left in the kitchen are 120 VAC. Fortunately, I found an electrician who was able to squeeze us in on a time and a half emergency basis to get a new outlet installed. It did require a lot more wallboard cutting than I anticipated but I also found a wallboard guy for a pretty reasonable price. Let me know when you get your bill on these so I confirm there’re not ripping you off.

By the way, Mr. Belanger’s glue gun arrived as well and I have to tell you it is quite a piece of work. Who knew a glue gun could hold so much glue? More on that in a minute.

With the new outlet installed I got right to work trying it out on the first three Sippy Cups. Everything seemed to be going great so I used the 10 minute sanitizing time to put together the new glue gun.

After a few minutes the house started filling with a bad odor of something melting. It was only then that I found out that the sanitizing temperature of the Tuttnauer reaches 273 degrees and the plastic they use for a Sippy Cup has a melting point of only 175 degrees. Who the he!! Knew these things got so hot. I am very disappointed that Mr. Belanger being an engineer and all did not advise me of this when I called him with my original plan. When I called him back today to tell him about the poor results he replied, “Yeah, I didn’t think of that.”

Well long story short, the Sippy Cups became Sippy Cup Goo and really got into the workings of the autoclave. Unfortunately, while I was unsuccessfully trying to scrape the Sippy Cup remains from the autoclave, DD3 found the unattended glue gun in the living room.

It’s kind of funny how much the glue gun resembles those blasters used by the storm troopers in Star Wars. Well you know DD3’s fondness of Star Wars sooo…….. The curtains are definitely shot, I think we can patch the carpet but I am not too certain about the couch.

I tried to use some solvents to get up the glue but all that did was smear it around and fill the house with some pretty biting fumes. To get the kids out of the fumes I decided we should check into the Four Seasons for the night. We did get there just after midnight and since this technically would be your day with the kids, I charged the room to your card. Have you ever seen the prices of the stuff they keep in those mini-bar refrigerators?

I am thinking of just going back to the rinse, wash and disassemble advise regarding the care of the Sippy Cups. That would probably work okay.

I will keep you informed on the progress.

Hugs and Nooggies

Sdguy038

PS: I called my attorney today to be sure he got the autoclave added to your list of marital property.

Back to SDGuy
Quote
I regret to inform you all that upon emptying the dishwasher today (from having been run a couple of days ago), one of the "clean" sippy cups I removed still had the plastic insert attached. Clearly I am in need of the enlightenmight that the Goddess (of Sippy Cups) Herself provided me. I am aghast at this turn of events, particularly since I had just about convinced myself that I wasn't responsible for the Sippy Cup In Question that so unfortunately was transferred to The Goddess.

My mother, you see, has taken to following my thread and informed me today how much she enjoyed all the discussion on sippy cups. She also said that she (having spent some time with me recently) was probably the one who had washed the sippy cup without removing the plastic insert (she being somewhat less familiar with Sippy Cup technology, given that they weren't available when I was a child). She went on to say that she probably would have done it on purpose had she known how much fun the resulting discussion was going to be.

Thus, I thought I had found a scapegoat for the source of the Negligent Sippy Cup Cleansing. After today's discovery, however, it is apparent that I am every bit as negligent with respect to Sippy Cup Hygiene. Maybe we are both guilty. Perhaps the Sippy Cup gene just doesn't run in our family.

Alas, I feel I must immediately inform our court-appointed mediator and have our agreement amended to include specific language on the use, care, and (most importantly) cleaning of Sippy Cups. I have also sent a personal message to Richard Belanger, notifying him of my gross parental inadequacy.

Chrisner again:

Quote
From: The Law Offices of Dewey, Cheatum and Howe

To: Sdguy038 in care of Marriage Builders

Dear Sir,

A random internet search has found this site as containing significant reference to our client’s product “Sippy Cups”. As legal representatives of ACME Sippy Cup Industries we are requesting that you immediately cease in your forum conversations regarding the possibility of bacterial disease outbreak and their unsubstantiated connection to our client’s product.

Furthermore after our review of your posts concerning your inability to properly care for and maintain the product as manufactured by our client we are requesting that until which time you have completed a course on “The Use, Care, and Maintenance of Sippy Cups” as taught by a certified “Sippy Cup” instructor, (eight week courses available at select WalMart stores), that you cease all use of our clients product. We would ask that you convey this request to your mother as well.

Non compliance with our request will require further attention from our firm.

Best regards,

Huey Dewey

Anyway, I'm on page 41 - I'm sure you can find these and read from there!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/25/08 07:19 PM
I copied and pasted it for you:

Quote
I got an email today from WW. Because I am hypersensitive from recent contact, I am somewhat triggered. WW recently got a kid cell phone. I asked him to start using it so that I would know when it was him on the phone as opposed to WW. Here's the email:

"Thanks for the stuff. If you do use sippy cups with DD3 you might want to double check the covers before you use them. One you sent was still dirty with I'm chocolate milk. I'm guessing someone didn't take out the plastic valve and wash them separately.

The phone will be kept in DD's bag. DS7 agrees that he doesn't need to take it to school. It can be charged with the same charger as yours. The one that came with his phone I will be keeping here.

Also I will be giving my Verizon phone back to you soon (along with the charger which you can choose to use for DS7 or not). When I do you can start paying your Verizon bill from your own funds. My cell phone number is 760-xxx-xxxx."

It was about three months after she moved out. You know what? She never did give me that phone back.
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/25/08 08:30 PM
I ended up reading about 30 pages on last night.

You still got the cat?
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/25/08 08:52 PM
Why, oh WHY? Does the link NOT end up going to the right post?

Because we can set our profile to post more or less messages on each page.

Mine, for example, is set to 50, and the default is 30.

SDGuy's thread is 245 pages long BEFORE I log in, but 165 pages AFTER I log in.

Anyways.

I had another observation to share about the Killer Bees...

Chrisner: Divorced and WZ is facing the bulldozer of fate.
LilSis: Divorced and dating someone who just might be more in tune with what she is really all about.
BetrayedCajun: Divorced, but he took up GOLF!
BugsMom: Divorced, and after Chris, was probaly the fastest to get there, and now has Drac sniffing around. Figures.
Strivn4Better: Divorced, And ROTHFLHAO about it...
Eph525: Big D, and probably better off because of it.
StillHurting: Still Waiting I guess...
InHisCare: He doesn't care....
Fightingback: In plan B....
SilentLucidity: Done, and serving the Z in the next week or so.
Wildhorse74: Done, and waiting for the court system to mmmmooooooovvvvvvvveeeeee....
SDguy038: Signing his MSA on his wedding anniversary. Finally.

The reason for the observation? 10 folks who posted and joined in excess of 18 months ago, and the Plan D still drags. So much for the wayward one pursuing "true love", huh?

So many others have come and gone in these past two years. So many that we HAVE supported and MAY have ended up with a better M. Many that went on to end thier M's because they couldn't stand the waywards any longer.

But thru that time, the Killer Bees peservered, tried all methods of recovery and some that didn't weren't in the MB books.

But, they have all come to SOME form of positive recovery.

They have grown and become become better folks in the Relationship that they will have with others in the future.

Congratulations.

For all the H3LL that you went thru. For becoming the folks that you are.

LG
Originally Posted by LG
So much for the wayward one pursuing "true love", huh?

I'm pretty sure none of them actually want to D. It's gotta have something to do with CAKE, but I just can't put my finger on it. smirk
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/25/08 10:21 PM
Originally Posted by Silencer
I'm pretty sure none of them actually want to D.

Oh, I don't know. Wayzilla took me out like the Headless Horseman.

Originally Posted by Lousy Gopher
Wildhorse74: Done, and waiting for the court system to mmmmooooooovvvvvvvveeeeee....


Cowgirl is on the D-line now too. She's just waiting for WxH to


SHOW ME THE MONEY !!!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/26/08 05:25 PM
Quote
You still got the cat?
Yep. She's a year and a half old now and still very kittenish. She'll arch her back and puff her tail out at me to try to get me to play with her. Rip around the house, jump out at my legs from blind spots, but then come sit on my lap and purr at me later. She's pretty good with the kids--will let them carry her around and stuff, but it's clear that she's my cat.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, LG. I wonder about some of the lost Bees sometimes. IHC, in particular. FightingBack was one who got clarity in Plan B and realized how much better off she was without her WS.

Anyway, I'm off this afternoon to sign the MSA. Wish me luck!
GOOD LUCK!!!

Fox
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/26/08 05:42 PM
Good Luck, SD!

Quote
I had another observation to share about the Killer Bees...

....I am not taking it personal, LG...just wanted to check....any particular reason why I did not make your list? dontknow

Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/26/08 06:38 PM
SD finally going to put his John Hancock on The Declaration of Independence.

You have done well Amigo.



Originally Posted by SD
She'll arch her back and puff her tail out at me to try to get me to play with her. Rip around the house, jump out at my legs from blind spots, but then come sit on my lap and purr at me later.

Wow!! Sounds like what I would want for another wife someday!
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/28/08 12:20 AM
Quote
Anyway, I'm off this afternoon to sign the MSA. Wish me luck!

Hey SD,
I hope it went well for you and your ok.
hug & pray
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/28/08 02:48 AM
Luna,

I vote to put you on the list. I think you win the "In Plan B the Longest" award.....
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/28/08 04:30 AM
Yep. I'm fine. Signed the document. Commiserated with my lawyer. Discussed irony. Then went out for dinner with friends from Chicago in for a conference.

Saw the SCQ at DD5's soccer game today and had some mildly angry moments--thinking about all the stuff I'd like to say but won't--typical stuff. They were nothing out of the ordinary. Saw my friends again tonight and had a really nice time.

Quote
I vote to put you on the list.
Luna, you had already been in Plan B for about a year when the rest of us were getting our feet wet; plus you were so dark. I think it was just oversight by LG.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/28/08 02:31 PM
Good job SD. You are so close to the finish line now. I have to believe that when you get there, your whole outlook will change. At least that's what many of those on the board who travelled this road ahead of us have said.

I still predict that as soon as your D is final, the A will implode. The SCQ will be totally available at that point and POSOM will be faced with making a real committment. Bet he runs back to his W at that point. BTW, are they D's yet? Is he still cake-eating with her?
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 09/28/08 03:29 PM
Hi SD,

Glad to hear you were able to be with friends after the signing...and after seeing SCQ at your DD5's game.

If anything, with this ordeal, I have learned to appreciate more some of my REAL friends...(as opposed to 'not-so-real ones'!)

...and yes, I know...I have been longer at this more than most (thanks for the nomination CL...I think?!?? :crosseyedcrazy:) ...so I know it was an oversight on LG's part... but considering where I WAS...I can't deny the obvious inspite of the length, and that I HAVE come a long way...(guess I am a 'toe-dipper' rather than just 'jump-in' the water type! :RollieEyes:) ...and so, am try to be patient with myself!

How are you feeling today?
Hey, Guy Smiley

Quote
Then went out for dinner with friends from Chicago in for a conference.

hurray

Quote
Saw the SCQ at DD5's soccer game today and had some mildly angry moments--thinking about all the stuff I'd like to say but won't--typical stuff.

I'm glad I don't have to see WxH very often. Just at drop offs and it is still door - to - door exchange.

Sometimes I look at him and think "what was I ever thinking?" He's just not that special.

DD14 was with him this weekend. Last night she told me they barely went out of the camper to go hunting. Spent some of Saturday cleaning and Sunday just hanging out at the camper. DD14 has taken a stand against his smoking around her and they got in a tiff when she told him to go outside if he was going to smoke - but he did it.

She said they spent alot of time with WxH telling stories from the past. His childhood and during our marriage. I think he was trying to impress DD14 with what a bad boy he thinks he was. DD14 told me some of the stories and they are embellished quite a bit from when I heard/experienced them. But, whatever, they amused DD14 and she felt important with him sharing with her.

They don't forget, sdguy, they may try to ignore....but they don't forget. This is not easy for her, either. I think she knows all the things you wanted to say to her.

There is no one who can beat us up like ourselves. She's already said all those things in her own head. She may have done some justifying, but she still recognizes those thoughts.

hug

Fox

Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/03/08 03:15 AM
You guys doin' ok?
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/03/08 06:13 AM
I don't think I've seen this thread this quiet ever.

Ya'll died or something???
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/03/08 09:18 PM
Quick update. Thanks for checking up, and thanks Fox for calling out all of the amigos earlier in the week.

I am okay, if not good. I went through a period of anger over the weekend, where the background conversation was right there waiting for the quiet moments. That seems to have really withdrawn during the week, though. I've kept busy at work.

I tell people that I signed the papers last Friday, and the response is "I don't know whether to say 'good job' or 'sorry.'" And I tell them that's how I feel, too.

As I was walking between buildings, I realized that I have not been thinking about It. I have been thinking about other things, like work and the Cubs (*sigh*).

Then just now, I checked in here. I read BobPure's post on the 10-second rule and wanted to send it to the SCQ. I started to check in on my amigos, and I realized that my breathing was becoming tight and my shoulders were tensing up. Not sure what it means, but I'm going to stay away from It for a while. I'll check back in soon. Hope everyone is doing well and has a great weekend.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/05/08 01:49 AM
Quote
"I don't know whether to say 'good job' or 'sorry.'" And I tell them that's how I feel, too.

You did a good job, and I am sorry.

Your kids will know forever what you tried to do.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/06/08 12:27 PM
I'm with Chris here..

I know it's been quite the ordeal for you, and I know that the paperwork probably changes very little other than the 'agreement' is legal now.

I've personally been having some long drawn out thoughts on the whole D thing, and I'm finding that I have a bit of a sense of humor about it.. dark humor as it is..

I find it a bit amusing though to think that in order to break the most important promise a person can make to another person.. you have to enter into an 'agreement' with that same person who has shown to be untrustworthy in the most important of 'agreements'..

Even more amusing I suppose is that the court will actually punish you for breaking the dissolution agreement.. but with the number of no-fault states.. there's really a glimmer of 'reward' for people breaking their first promise.

Ok.. so a little dark humor, but it kind of shines a light on the rediculousness of it all.

I truly hope however that you do find some peace in this SD.. and the realization that years down the road you're still going to be able to look yourself in the mirror and know you did the right thing for you, and more importantly, for your children.

Keeping you in my prayers bro.. time to let those shoulders loose and focus your eyes on your future. I'm sure it's going to be a bright one.

J
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/06/08 03:59 PM
MB can sometimes be it's own trigger at times. I get caught up in other people's stories sometimes and see myself in their shoes, which reflects in the advice I offer, so I understand how MB can have it's own triggers.

A little break is in order. Sorry about the Cubbies. I'm a Dodger fan, though I quit following back in '94 and haven't really followed since.

It's ok to let yourself grieve this massive loss (your marriage).
hug hugsdguy and kiddos hug hug


Fox
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/08/08 06:29 PM
Hi SD,

I am sorry for the pain...

Thinking of you.


((((((((((((((((SD))))))))))))))
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/10/08 12:03 AM
I think I read somewhere around here that you were going to do an update.

Let's have it....
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/10/08 02:29 PM
Quote
I think I read somewhere around here that you were going to do an update.

....and specifically...I think it was on Bugs' thread! whistle
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/11/08 06:45 AM
Yeah, I just haven't had a chance to do a decent update, not that there's all that much to say. It was a hectic week at work, and now I'm on a quick trip to Chicago to visit friends. So it will have to wait.

I'm good. Hope everyone is having a great weekend.
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/11/08 07:40 AM
Mine is fantastic laugh

looking forward to hearing the update
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/11/08 12:24 PM
Have a great time there SD. I love shopping in Chicago. I'm sure guys don't get as excited about Michigan Ave. as we females do, but there are tons of other things there to do too. At least do a quick walk down the Miracle Mile, huh?
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/11/08 02:57 PM
Sorry about not being able to go to a Cubs playoff game....

frown

LG
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/11/08 09:33 PM
SD,

Quote
now I'm on a quick trip to Chicago to visit friends. So it will have to wait.

Good idea...spending time with friends...that's great!

...wait? us?....'patience' is our middle name :RollieEyes:...

Hope you have a great weekend.







Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/11/08 11:42 PM
Yeah, I guess we can let you go....after all, we don't have real lives. stickout
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/16/08 11:30 PM
It's been too long since I updated. Sigh. I've been getting a bit twitchy lately and probably have stuff backing up on me.

So. Let's see. First things first.

Quote
Sorry about not being able to go to a Cubs playoff game....
Ah, but we were able to go. I got tickets and took DS8 to the game at Dodger Stadium. It was horrific. One of those great life experiences, to be sure--the first playoff baseball game I've ever been to, but to watch the team that played great baseball all summer long morph into choking losers was pretty tough. Especially amid thousands of obnoxious, classless Dodgers fans (there were some nice ones, too). Not an easy thing for DS8, but a life experience we will always have. The nice Dodger fan sitting next to me took a fabulous photo of DS8 and me.

But thanks, LG. I know what you meant. I am a total Die-Hard Cubs fan (i.e., masochist) who relentlessly follows the team, so the whole post-season collapse was quite painful. Because I am a long-time Cubs fan, however, I was ready for it.

Visiting Chicago was fun. It was great to be among old friends I hadn't seen for years, even if it was for a very short trip. The traveling took something out of me--I've been tired this week.

And work is not easy these days. My company and industry are past their peak and in down-sizing mode. There are layoffs all around, and we don't know exactly what is going to happen. I think my job is pretty safe, and even if it gets eliminated, I will get a generous severance package, but all the uncertainty and fear makes it really hard to concentrate and be engaged at work. It's SO demotivating, and it seems like things have been this way for years. Which, I guess, they have. Lots of gallows humor. I've been meaning to post to SL and tell her I understand what she's talking about.

There hasn't been much in the way of communication with the SCQ, which is how I like it. Things have been peaceful in that regard. Minor triggers come and go (the SCQ showing up briefly at DS8's baseball game--long enough for me to tell the moms who were keeping an eye on DD5 so that I could help coach that the SCQ would watch her, only to have her leave right after that--to go grocery shopping, she told DD5. DS8 didn't even see her.), the kids going on sleepovers at POSOM's house, the plans for this weekend's split-squad time (DS8 will go tour the USS Midway. . . with POSOM in tow).

I've been up and down with moods. Sometimes I am angry and want to tell the SCQ off. Sometimes she doesn't cross my mind at all. Sometimes I think it would be easier to just let everything go and be nice to the SCQ, but then I think that I couldn't do that without Plan FU'ing her, because it's important to me that she GET IT.

Why is that so important to us? It's what we all want, right? That the WS acknowledge that they were wrong and recognize how much damage they have caused and take responsibility for their choices. I know I want the SCQ to Get It. It's one I think I need to let go of, but it won't be easy.

About a week ago I got an email from LilSis. It was an email she forwarded from her WXH informing her that he and RT will be getting married. She said it was triggering even though she's much more fulfilled and in a better place. It was triggering for me, too, because that is almost certainly where the SCQ and POSOM are headed. Up to that point, I don't think I realized how triggering that would be. Ugly thought--would they want the kids to participate in a ceremony? puke

I haven't heard from my lawyer but expect to hear pretty much any day now that my marriage is officially over.

Tomorrow the kids and I are going in for family therapy. For a while now I have been intending to get some counseling for DS8 but hadn't even thought about family therapy until one of my neighbors suggested it. I scheduled the appointment over a week ago, and that has been mildly triggering: How much do I tell the SCQ? Do I invite her? Do I tell her why?

I put off telling the SCQ until today, but here's what I said:

Quote
Tomorrow I am taking the kids to a family counseling session in the afternoon. It is with Dr. [therapist] (PhD in psychology) at Joe's Psychiatry. Dr. Therapist was recommended by [my neighbor], the pediatrician who moved in down the street. I recognize that I'm not giving you much time to voice any concerns. That wasn't really intentional--just that I wasn't sure how to tell you or how you would react and put off telling you. Still, let me know if you have any concerns. If you are interested, we can discuss tomorrow whether it would be a good idea to have you come to the sessions as well.


Lots of things in my update that could make me twitchy. Some combination of them has. Not sure which ones.

It will be nice when my life is about more than my wife's adultery.
Posted By: believer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/16/08 11:59 PM
"It will be nice when my life is about more than my wife's adultery."

You'll get there. And if you follow the course of the MB men before you that divorced, your next wife will be younger, hotter and richer.


Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 12:04 AM
Wow, B, you always know the right thing to say to cheer me up! smile
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by believer
"It will be nice when my life is about more than my wife's adultery."

You'll get there. And if you follow the course of the MB men before you that divorced, your next wife will be younger, hotter and richer.

some of the women do something similar too.

Ay, Believer whistle
Posted By: believer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 12:11 AM
And it is the truth. I've been here a long time, and after reading here, the men do JUST FINE. Like shooting fish in a barrel.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 12:08 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
I've been up and down with moods. Sometimes I am angry and want to tell the SCQ off. Sometimes she doesn't cross my mind at all. Sometimes I think it would be easier to just let everything go and be nice to the SCQ, but then I think that I couldn't do that without Plan FU'ing her, because it's important to me that she GET IT.

Why is that so important to us? It's what we all want, right? That the WS acknowledge that they were wrong and recognize how much damage they have caused and take responsibility for their choices. I know I want the SCQ to Get It. It's one I think I need to let go of, but it won't be easy.

....


It will be nice when my life is about more than my wife's adultery.


I can totally relate Guy.. have no answers myself either, but I can say with certainty I'm right here with you on this.

I'll take hope here from Believer as well.. and while younger, hotter, and richer would be verra nice.. I just really want someone who will be good to me and my kids, who I can relate to.. not just be related to.

I think to some extent that's what we all want.

Until that person comes along though..I've got a year and a half old black labradore who's amazingly happy to see me when I come home.. he's not good at cuddling, or conversation though.. he just kinda lies around and barks at people who wander past the house.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 01:15 PM
Quote
I've been up and down with moods. Sometimes I am angry and want to tell the SCQ off. Sometimes she doesn't cross my mind at all. Sometimes I think it would be easier to just let everything go and be nice to the SCQ, but then I think that I couldn't do that without Plan FU'ing her, because it's important to me that she GET IT.

Why is that so important to us? It's what we all want, right? That the WS acknowledge that they were wrong and recognize how much damage they have caused and take responsibility for their choices. I know I want the SCQ to Get It. It's one I think I need to let go of, but it won't be easy.

Hey SD,,,,I'm with you on this as well. Wish Drac would 'get it', too. And yes, we DO need to let go of that and NO, it's not easy. A work in progress as they say.

Pls tell Sis we are thinking of her! I'm sorry to hear the RT and Ex are making it 'offical', we should start a pool on how long the demise will take. I'm especially glad to know that she is in a much better place,,,,,,,,,so that while this is most certainly difficult & hurtful, she is better equipped to work through it.

I'm glad you are going to family counseling. It will do you all a lot of good, I think. I am also glad to see that you DID inform SCQ. It was the right thing to do. I understand the difficulty and hesitancy with telling her about it, but don't be surprised to have her backlash be extreme due in part to the late notice. However, I must say, I don't know how ANY parent can argue that counseling would be BAD for their kids before the counseling has even begun. I hope that you have a good counselor and that you all get some healing!

I'm almost there with my life not being about Drac's infidelity,,,,,,almost. And the truth is, what little bit is still about it is totally because of ME. I recognize that and am working on it.

So glad you had fun in Chi-town. I'm headed up for a long weekend myself at the end of the month!

Have a great weekend. Let us know how things go with the counseling!!

hugSDGUY hug

Adultery sucks.

Glad you had a fun time in Chicago. I sure wish I could get away for a little while. sigh Everything is weighing on me again as I continue the preparations to take WxH back to court for the arrears and now a bill that a collector is going to start garnishing my wages for. My old attorney was supposed to have dealt with it and reassured me over and over that he would take care of it and it would be dealt with in the D. It was not dealt with and the judge didn't address in the decree. So now they will garnish my wages and I will have to go after WxH for it. What burns me the most is that it was a bill for dental services for WxH. I paid all of DDs and I's. I imagine I will end up having to pay for 1/2 the bill as we were married at the time of the services. I think I'll ask for 1/2 his teeth in return. wink

Oh well, I should be able to go to Vegas again in January. It's for work but there is downtime so I'll get to have SOME fun.

Sorry to hear about your job, no matter what safety net you have, it's worrisome. Like SL, you are always welcome here. I'm not sure what you would DO.......know anything about cattle? smile


Quote
Why is that so important to us? It's what we all want, right? That the WS acknowledge that they were wrong and recognize how much damage they have caused and take responsibility for their choices. I know I want the SCQ to Get It. It's one I think I need to let go of, but it won't be easy.

I think I want WxH to realize what he has done because that is the only way I will know DH is still in there somewhere. It's denial to a certain degree. The people we knew COULD NOT have done this if they had only KNOWN what they were doing. And when they KNOW, they will stop. Right?

Quote
About a week ago I got an email from LilSis. It was an email she forwarded from her WXH informing her that he and RT will be getting married. She said it was triggering even though she's much more fulfilled and in a better place. It was triggering for me, too, because that is almost certainly where the SCQ and POSOM are headed. Up to that point, I don't think I realized how triggering that would be. Ugly thought--would they want the kids to participate in a ceremony?

sick That just makes me want to hurl. Hugs to Sis.

When Babs finally gets divorced (date now in Feb) it will either be the demise of their "relationship" or they will get married. Babs lived with her BH for 3 years before demanding they get married or call it quits.

One part of me wants them to get married as I fully believe they will destroy each other - and WxH will be further hurt and it might be the straw that broke the camels back and reawaken the decent man inside him.

I hope for DDs sake that they call it quits and WxH rediscovers his children. He is missing so much.......



I really hope you have found a good counselor and it is helpful for all of you. I'm sure SCQ is going to have a snitfit as she will feel you are blaming her for harm done to the children when she is certain there hasn't been any. Do what you know is right and her snitfit be darned.

Take care, sdguy.

Fox
Originally Posted by Jamesus
[quote=sdguy038]
just kinda lies around and barks at people who wander past the house.

Reminds me of EXWW WHEN she was home
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 03:51 PM
Thanks, guys.

Quote
I'm sure SCQ is going to have a snitfit as she will feel you are blaming her for harm done to the children when she is certain there hasn't been any. Do what you know is right and her snitfit be darned.

I am also glad to see that you DID inform SCQ. It was the right thing to do. I understand the difficulty and hesitancy with telling her about it, but don't be surprised to have her backlash be extreme due in part to the late notice.

Yeah. Here's the response:

I do not agree to you taking the children to the counseling session with or without me. These things need to be discussed and agreed to by both of us prior to making an appointment. You will need to cancel the appointment for tomorrow. You have not raised any concerns to me. I have no concerns related to the children. I do not see the need for them to see a psychologist. You need to tell me what the issues are before anything with this happens.

So, I'm not cancelling the appointment, but I'm wondering whether I should have done things differently. Opinions?
Don't respond, IMHO.

Keep your appointment. YOU have seen a need for your children and yourself to get some help. SHE is going to deny it until the cows come home.

SHE didn't ask for your agreement when she flipped their world upside down. There is no point in telling her that, however.

(although, to be honest, I probably would.)

You might just find that your children don't need any outside help, but at least you made the effort to find out for sure.

You have every right to take them, IMO.

Fox
Unless there's something specific in your custody agreement I really don't see where she has any say so what so ever.

If the children are fine, then the psychologist will tell you so. I went to a counselor once after D-day and after the session he said I was handling things properly and in his opinion I didn't need further counseling. Now, I could have kept going and he would have been more than happy to take my money, but he flat out told me I didn't need it and I'm sure yours will say the same if that's the case.

If you reply at all it should be just to let her know that you are not canceling the oppointment. That way she's aware that her children are in counseling. Tell her she THINKS the kids are fine. You want to KNOW the kids are fine. Why not let a professional give his opinion.

If you want to push a button, tell her you've got this, she can go stick her head back in the sand.

Originally Posted by The Smart Cajun
If the children are fine, then the psychologist will tell you so. I went to a counselor once after D-day and after the session he said I was handling things properly and in his opinion I didn't need further counseling. Now, I could have kept going and he would have been more than happy to take my money, but he flat out told me I didn't need it and I'm sure yours will say the same if that's the case.

Yup, the one I took DDs to told me this also. DDs were handling it as expected. She gave me some examples of what to watch for in case things changed and became more extreme with them.

As crappy as our counselor was with many things, THIS she at least had right. It was a nice validation that I was doing the best that could be done.....

Fox
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 04:54 PM
I dunno Guy..

I certainly wouldn't cancel the appointment.

My response would be something to the tune of:

So I suppose that means you won't be coming. Thank you for letting me know. As for my concerns about our childrens well being, I'll have to look again, however I'm quite sure I've mentioned to you on more than one occasion my numerous concerns about the impact of your infideltiy and subsequent abandonment of your family on the children. Just because you don't seem to be concerned, doesn't mean that I am not.





or to be more concise.

SCQ,

Sorry to hear you won't be joining us.

Guy

Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by Her Royal [censored], the Sippy Cup Queen
I do not agree to you taking the children to the counseling session with or without me. These things need to be discussed and agreed to by both of us prior to making an appointment. You will need to cancel the appointment for tomorrow. You have not raised any concerns to me. I have no concerns related to the children. I do not see the need for them to see a psychologist. You need to tell me what the issues are before anything with this happens.

See, she if finally getting on board with MB principles including the POJA; "As long as we agree to always doing it my way, life is good."


Quote
You have not raised any concerns to me.

That's funny, I thought you have frequently brought up your concern about young children growing up in broken homes and exposed to new adult partners of questionable moral values. You might have mentioned infidelity too. I can't remember.

I thought you had brought up all the proven uphill statistics the kids will face about drugs, alcohol, sex, abuse, poor relationship choices, grades, dropout statistics, college degrees and on and on.

She is scared a councilor will address the adultery in some way and it won't be her happy dream-like princess in the castle version.

Quote
I have no concerns related to the children.

The most oblivious line in the response and one of the most profoundly stupid things I have ever read here! If this is true, she is admitting to be an unfit parent.

She has no concerns about children of divorce? Her own children?

Today, right now, I wish I was your intermediary.

She’s not qualified to be a parent. She’s not qualified to be a wife. She is a qualified adulteress with all the responsibilities and benefits that go along with the title.

I am glad you are nearly done with her. In a few short months you will be wishing it had all happened quicker.


Originally Posted by Cajun 007
Tell her she THINKS the kids are fine. You want to KNOW the kids are fine. Why not let a professional give his opinion.

True words of wisdom from the swamp!
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 05:16 PM
SCQ = :crosseyedcrazy:

I give you permission to ignore her message. You know what she needs, don't you? :twobyfour:
Ok, so I'm on lunch break and decided I'm gonna be breakin the law. I wanted to respond to your most recent entries.

First off, eventually, you will not invest much in whether or not your xWS 'gets' it or not. You will have moved on. It will then be up to them to learn from their mistakes, otherwise, they'll just keep repeating. Your job, as I see it, is to take care of your kids and yourself, insulating them, as best you can, from your xWS dumba$$ choices.

I, for one, could give two [censored] if the Z 'gets' it anymore. I just want to protect my son as best I can and move forward with my life. If the Z does eventually get it, hurray hurray Hopefully he will then apply his new knowledge to having a better relationship with DS.

When I let go, this was part of it. I don't even have an illusion of control anymore, there is no veil over my eyes. I see the Z like he is; I'm not trying to force a square peg into a round hole. This is of great benefit to me in more areas of my life than one. I thank God that I'm in this place of healing and growth. It's not easy, but it's oh so worth it.

As for the counseling appointment, go forth and conquer. It's important TO YOU that you have a clearer answer outside of yourself as to how your children are doing, unbiased . It's your responsiblity to find out, at that point. Unless there is something LEGALLY that SCQ can do to bar this, I say move forward with it.

Lots of love for y'all who are reading. Take care.

p.s. oh, the job thing, yeah, I try not to focus on that too much these days. One day at a time, with a keen eye on what's happening around me. No sense in working myself up into a lather right now.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by silentlucidity
working myself up into a lather right now.

Pics pls..


Sorry... /tj
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 07:36 PM
Thanks, everyone.

Update: the SCQ sent me a text message this morning asking me to confirm that I had cancelled the appointment. I was in a meeting, so I didn't reply. A few minutes ago, the counselor's office called me--the end result was them telling me that since I don't have sole custody of the children I can't take them to counseling without the SCQ's permission. And a couple minutes after that I got a TM from the SCQ telling me that she had contacted the doctor and told them I don't have her permission.

So no appointment.

mad

Remember to breathe.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 07:42 PM
Here's what I sent her:

Quote
Yes, the appointment is cancelled. I will still pick up DS8 from school, so let me know how you would like to receive him.

It's surprising to me that you are opposed to counseling. At one point you had agreed to some counseling for DS8 so long as it wasn't [the annoying counselor] at the school. I think that the kids have some significant issues to deal with and could use some help working through them. They have told me that some of these things are difficult to discuss, but that only makes them *more* significant.

Counseling helps me a lot. I wanted to provide them with the same benefit in an environment that was as least threatening as possible. The kids and I have family meetings from time to time. This was going to be a family meeting with someone else there to help us.

I still think that this is important. Let me know if you would like for me to be more specific with my concerns.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 07:45 PM
Quote
Let me know if you would like for me to be more specific with my concerns.

Oooooooooo.......nice. Is she brave enough to ask?


She was very afraid of this session.

Quote
I can't take them to counseling without the SCQ's permission. And a couple minutes after that I got a TM from the SCQ telling me that she had contacted the doctor and told them I don't have her permission.

Executed like a true loving mother.
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
A few minutes ago, the counselor's office called me--the end result was them telling me that since I don't have sole custody of the children I can't take them to counseling without the SCQ's permission. And a couple minutes after that I got a TM from the SCQ telling me that she had contacted the doctor and told them I don't have her permission.

So, in this case one parent can keep them from getting counseling but both parents have to agree in order for them to get counseling? Uh, am I dumb or does that sound ridiculous?
That's absolutely ridiculous. Check with your lawyer. This particular counselor may just be afraid of being asked to go to court.

It's kinda hard for SCQ to keep her children's head in the sand with her, isn't it?


Fox
They do live by the beach.

Maybe you could start calling OM "Ostrich F er"
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 08:22 PM
Can you imagine her ranting and raving to her work buddies, “I can’t believe my idiot soon to be ex husband actually wants to bring the children to family counseling so that they can better understand and handle the divorce. What a total idiot! He even invited ME! What is he thinking?

Everyone knows that kids are better off living in a split custody situation missing one parent for half of their time and half of the holidays for the rest of their lives rather than staying in a marriage where the Mommy wants to get sweaty with other men. How can he not understand that?"

And the sad thing is, they probably all nodded in agreement to her.
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by wildhorses74
That's absolutely ridiculous. Check with your lawyer. This particular counselor may just be afraid of being asked to go to court.

It's kinda hard for SCQ to keep her children's head in the sand with her, isn't it?


Fox

Oh, this is excellent advice.

I know that people who allegedly understand the law do not always do so. When my x and I divorced, I knew his company was misinterpreting the law on COBRA insurance. So, I called the US DOL and got the regulation then called his employer back. It didn't matter to me what their attorneys said - I knew they were wrong. And this large employer had to change their policies all because some woman told them which portion of the law they were not following.

Find out if this is actually right.

It may depend on how your decree is written and who is the parent providing the insurance, also.
Posted By: coachswife Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 08:40 PM
Just when you think she's stooped as low as she can go, she surprises ya!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 09:06 PM
The whole situation is absurd. It's pretty clear to me that the only reason the doctor's office brought up the permission thing is because the SCQ called ahead and "told on me." Otherwise, they wouldn't have asked the question. But since the SCQ did, what would you do if you were the doctor's office? I would back away, too. They told me it was their policy, and it makes sense to me.

So . . . I can certainly pick out another counselor and not tell the SCQ ahead of time. She can't possibly tell all of them not to see me.

She could drag me back to Family Court Services (her standard threat), but what's she going to tell them? It would come across like Chrisner said. Our case worker is a former family therapist. I don't really fear that.

Some part of her reaction is because I told her at the last minute. I don't think the reaction would have been any different, to be honest.

But I went with the "de-escalation" response in the hopes that maybe she will be reasonable. It's worth a shot, and a better strategy than immediately going nuclear, I think.

Going to go get the kids.
Quote
So . . . I can certainly pick out another counselor and not tell the SCQ ahead of time. She can't possibly tell all of them not to see me.

This is EXACTLY what I would do. She IS terrified that a professional peering into her children's lives might see... gasp! :MrEEk:.... some turmoil... and blame it on her! :MrEEk: :MrEEk: gasp! gasp!...

Nothing like getting her damage to her children on the record for future reference.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 09:33 PM
Man oh man, I do not like this woman.

I honestly don't know how you keep that Plan FU from spewing like a Mentos in a carbonated beverage.

She will NEVER get it. NEVER.

The one thing that I hang onto is that WH once told me "I did you wrong." Told me about 6 weeks after Dday. Didn't stop the A, but at least it was an admission of sorts.


hug
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 10:30 PM
hug SDGuy hug
I fully expected SCQ to derail the counseling.

I wouldn't budge too much on this, Guy. I would keep coming at her with YOUR concerns about the kids. All I hear from her is that if she don't want it, you ain't doin it. She's controlling this whole sitch, threatening you left and right with what amounts to extortion.

Man, I wanna throttle that biotch. Uncaring as all get out. Cruel. Doesn't give two [censored] about the effect the separation and divorce has on the kids. If you look up DIVORCE AND CHILDREN on any search engine, you'll be riddled with reports about the negative long term affects, and also information on how to help your children cope. What a BIOTCH!!! mad

OK, rant over...

I'm utterly amazed that your love bank hasn't spontaneously combusted at this point. sigh

hugMr. Smiley

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/17/08 11:40 PM
Quote
I'm utterly amazed that your love bank hasn't spontaneously combusted at this point.
We Cubs fans can't help ourselves.

The problem-solver in me switched pretty quickly into pragmatic mode, hence the calm response to the SCQ. I'm giving her the opportunity to back down from her position.

If she continues to resist, the nuclear option is available (take them without telling her in advance). Or I can tell her something like

"If you refuse to consent to counseling for the kids, I will ask for a hearing at Family Court Services. I will use these as justification to build my case" and then I can make a list of the SCQ's gross behaviors as long as I feel like.

I think she does care, she is just desperately clinging to her belief that everything is fine. And if something is wrong, it's my fault. "You're the one who is filling their heads with this stuff about divorce. If you just said nothing, things would be fine." I'm SURE this is what she thinks.

Get this--while I was there to pick up my kids from school, I got a call from my lawyer. When the doctor wouldn't give her any information (i.e., wouldn't confirm that the appointment was cancelled), she called her lawyer, who called my lawyer. Sheesh.
Posted By: believer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/18/08 12:43 AM
So sad. She is expending TONS of effort trying to avoid the truth. I wouldn't make this the hill to die on. You are a great dad, and your kids will thrive. Take your time and wait.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/18/08 01:16 AM
Thanks, B. Healthy perspective, as usual.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/18/08 01:38 AM
We got to go FTF just a little bit ago. It's a split-squad weekend, which means we each have one kid, so she came to pick up DS8. She had told me via TM that she was going to drop off some papers to sign (getting financial accounts sorted out), so she got out of the car and came up to me to give me the papers and tell me what needed to be done.

As if I wanted any part of talking to her right now. My whole body language said "I don't want anything to do with you" but she acted like nothing had happened. She wasn't doing it in a superior way, like "nyah nyah you have to talk to me." Just as if we had not had the exchange today.

It makes me wonder whether she's most pissed off that I won't talk with her about the kids. She might just be mad I haven't shared my concerns with her. Of course, she doesn't REALLY want to hear what I have to say, but she doesn't know that, either.

It's frustrating that she's making these terrible parental decisions, but there's no one I can appeal to. Short of Family Court Services. I could bottle all this stuff up and tell her parents, I suppose, but I don't imagine that would do any good.

Thanks again to everyone for the support (PM, Chrisner, SL, Foxy, Bugs, BC, James, LD, CW, Cinders, CL). Hope you are all having great weekends!
Posted By: audioflyer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/18/08 01:52 AM
sad,
this is the first time i have posted to you. I that been divorced from xw for 10 years this month. I have three boys 26,22,18. I wish I would have taken my boys to a counselor long ago. my s22 moved away to get away from has mother 1 1/2 years ago. s18 is dealing with anger issues. There mother is in her 4rd affair and 3rd husband sense i divorced her in ten years ago. My boys are having a tough time of this. S22 said to me " I wish I had a Normal Mom". My s18 tries to stay away from his mom as much as he can. Son 26 is in the Army and just stays away from her. My S18 and S22 has been effected the most. I did the best with boys that i could. This site has shown me alot i could have done.

Your a good dad. SCQ cares about herself she sound like my X more afraid that she will have to change and she is not perfect.

Keep up the good work

AF



Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/18/08 03:17 PM
What's FTF? I'm sure after you tell me I will smack myself on the forehead, but I just can't get it now....
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/18/08 06:08 PM
Sorry. Face to face.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/18/08 07:16 PM
Duh!! (smacking forehead!)

I knew it was obvious but I just couldn't see it for some reason....
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/18/08 07:43 PM
Hi SD,

Quote
The problem-solver in me switched pretty quickly into pragmatic mode, hence the calm response to the SCQ. I'm giving her the opportunity to back down from her position.

I hope SCQ reconsiders...

Your patience is unparallelled, and a measure of how much you care for your kids and family!

hugSD hug
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/19/08 04:53 PM
Thanks for posting here, Audioflyer. I appreciate your perspective. Sorry to hear that things didn't work out very well for your kids.

I had a good day with DD5 yesterday. Soccer game, bike ride, playing around the house. When the SCQ dropped off DS8, DD5 cried and told me she didn't want to go. I think part of it was because she was tired, but still.

Waywards suck.
Posted By: PSUBIKER Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/19/08 06:26 PM
SD Guy,

I just recently discovered thread and your candor and humor is giving me the courage to go into a very, very dark plan B. It's funny, the pettyness and crazieness you've experienced is exactly what I'm seeing with my WW.

ShockedBetrayed
Posted By: Amazin Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/19/08 06:53 PM
Hey SD Guy,

I was just reading your thread. For some reason I must keep missing your updates. I feel like I haven't seen any for a while... Must just be me...

Anyway, I just thought I would say Hi and I hope you're doing well.

Take it easy and keep your chin up.

Amazin.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/20/08 02:57 AM
Thanks for stopping by, guys. I go through periods where reading here just triggers me, and so I'll go for a while without posting. What usually happens is I go too long and have stuff stuck in my head. I don't keep a journal, so this place is a good way to get all the stuff that runs around in circles in your head out of your head. I post it out.

Good day with DS8 today. In the baseball game he got his first hit of the season, which was great. He's a good pitcher but hasn't had too much confidence with the bat, so this was exciting for both of us.

During a conversation in the car, DS8 told me that the SCQ was okay with counseling, but it was just too sudden. I'll give it a few days and reapproach.

Lots of anger toward the SCQ these days.
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/20/08 11:06 AM
Yeah, sometimes we women (and you men) are not totally opposed to things but, because of the timing or means of presentation, we fight against them until we have a chance to think about it and prepare to deal with it. think
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/20/08 05:34 PM
Quote
because of the timing or means of presentation

I think it really frosts the SCQ that I don't talk to her about the kids, and subconsciously this is probably a way to get me to interact with her more. She won't like it if I do, of course, but she doesn't know that.

And she didn't like the last minute thing. Unfortunately, that's part of who I am. I am a last minute person who will do things spontaneously, and making sure that I have communicated with everyone is not one of my strengths. Usually, it's because I spend too much time in my own head and it hasn't occurred to me yet to tell someone else. In this case, and my co-worker called me on it, ("You were afraid this would happen, which is why you didn't want to tell her. You hoped it wouldn't, but you knew this would happen.") the potential results of communicating were mostly bad, so I put it off.

Lots of anger lurking today. It's right there all the time. I dropped off DS8 at school this morning and stood for a minute or two watching the parents and kids, and as I walked away I thought to myself "How can I be normal when I have all this anger gnawing at me?"

It's like the proverbial elephant in the room, except this one is riding on my shoulders. I really wish I could get rid of that elephant, but I can't seem to let go of what I want for my kids.

Here's one. The other night the kids and I were just chatting about stuff as I put away the dishes, and somehow the topic turned to referring to someone as "Whatever-your-name-is." This is something the SCQ does (lots of mothers do this)--cycle through the names when you don't pick out the right one. I said "Your mom does that, doesn't she?" and they laughed and said yes, and rattled off the list, including both cat's names.

Then DS8 said "Once she called DD5 [POSOM's daughter's name]." On the scale between Completely Oblivious and Totally Understood the Magnitude of This, DS8's level of seriousness when he said it was about a five.

puke mad

This would be high on my list of reasons why family therapy is a good idea. This kind of thing makes the elephant heavier.

I hope the week improves, but shortly we have a teleconference with a corporate vice-president, and I don't think the news is going to be good.

Yipes, sdguy, that's alot to deal with. Those darn elephants are heavy.

Make sure you sigh.

Corporate vice-president, huh? Good luck.......

Fox
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/20/08 05:51 PM
Hi SD,

Quote
It's like the proverbial elephant in the room, except this one is riding on my shoulders. I really wish I could get rid of that elephant, but I can't seem to let go of what I want for my kids.

I don't want to be a downer, SD...but yeah...I know the feeling...and I try and pull out all the 'tricks' I learned so far out of the hat... but SOMETIMES...nothing seems to work! :RollieEyes:

Hope your corporate call went well.... pray

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/20/08 09:58 PM
The corporate news was predictable. They are exiting one of the research areas that my site worked on. Ultimately, it will probably mean that they will need fewer people here (i.e., layoffs), but they don't know exactly what it means today. It will be months before we know for sure, so all they've done is ratcheted up everyone's state of anxiety, but then they will act surprised when employees are "not engaged."

The state of morale here is just about toxic, but I like what I do and the people I work with. The uncertainty won't help my overall health any, but compared to the elephant, the work stress feels more like an armadillo. Maybe a wildebeest.
Posted By: believer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 12:25 AM
Hope your job works out okay. Remember, the government is always looking for workers in the sciences. Check out the opm.gov site and Navy jobs site.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 05:11 AM
And a nice vicious exchange from the SCQ via TM to end a perfect day.

Do we have an emoticon for Letting It Go? Other than this one, of course puke

Because that's what I need to do. Let it Go. (Puking comes later.)

I had a really fun yoga class. Chatted with the women in the class. It could have been flirting. Or I could have made it flirting without much effort. But I was in a good mood before class started. I can't really imagine why.

Now I just need to shake the bad taste from the SCQ contact without losing any sleep over it. And maybe eat some food.

Waywards suck.
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 06:17 AM
Quote
Waywards suck.

Yup.

hug

So how much more LBing will you be able to take before the
Quote
It could have been flirting. Or I could have made it flirting without much effort.
does?
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 01:08 PM
Hey SD!

Hope you had a meal and some decent rest last night.

Quote
But I was in a good mood before class started. I can't really imagine why.

This happens to me sometimes,,,,and I just ask myself, "Why not?" It seems to come from somewhere, I don't know where, but the good mood CAN and DOES strike. Just roll with it and try to keep it going. It's not like we don't deserve it, especially in the middle of the wayward [censored] storms.

Quote
Because that's what I need to do. Let it Go. (Puking comes later.)

I understand,,,but have found puke to be optional at pretty much any given moment in this sitch,,,,YUCK! But true.

Don't let the corporate types get you down. I have never understood the "let's keep the troops 'informed'" plan that really turns into "let's keep everyone dancing on a razor's edge". Sometimes I think they truly believe they are doing the 'right' thing. They forget what it's like to be told that stuff while working 'in the trenches'. Just keep doing a great job. It's kind of like dealing with waywards - - keep focused on what YOU can control.

The only real piece of advice I have for you about recent events is that you knew what was going to happen by waiting to the last minute to tell SCQ about the counseling. Don't let that happen again. I understand knowing that no matter how or when you tell the wayward somethig like this, you are going to get backlash,,,,,so the idea of putting it off takes a life of it's own if we let it. Yet we both know it doesn't change the fact that the backlash happens,,,,and we have then also given them a bit of ammo with the last minute notification. Not worth it. Better to face it head on and get it over with.

Ok,,,,I'll step off the soap box.

Sorry for the double whammy of waywards & work. Despite the feelings you may have to the contrary, it sounds like you are handling it with class & dignity.

Glad you are still going to class,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and even better that you spent some time chatting with the ladies. A bit of an ego boost is just the ticket!
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 01:21 PM
Beware of your anger. It comes and comes hard and you want to spew venom at the wayward that destroyed your life and that of your children.

Be careful because it will eat at you and explode at bad moments.

I've been there. I know.

You will get past it, but the anger phaze is ugly and causes many sleepless nights (and disturbing thoughts).

Talk about this stuff with your therapist. It's normal.

Also beware of taking out that anger on your kids by being snappy with them or having a short fuse.

Find an outlet for that anger. Go beat up a punching bag. Take boxing lessons. Join an MMA gym.

Do the yoga.

And stay away from women for now. Flirting is fun, but you don't need a woman right now. It's very tempting, but you're not ready. Give yourself a year before dating again.
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 02:43 PM
Hi SD,

...trust your gut feeling...if anger is pushing it's way UP... take the time to figure out, not how to HOLD IT OFF, but how you can best diffuse it... with some of the NEW tools in your toolbox think

so that SCQ, the kids or anyone else you care about will not be at the receiving end naughty... for YOUR SAKE!
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by SD
The corporate news was predictable.

We got that last week.

“Don’t worry everyone! Our cash flow is good and we do not foresee any impending layo....ummmm....downsizing.....ummmmm... No wait! Rightsizing! That’s it! No rightsizing! HuZah!!!!! Now back to work! Work harder! Oh yeah, and with less and stuff! Be smarter! But don’t worry! Muda! Mura! Muri! BONSAI!!! ! BONSAI!!! BONSAI!!!”

Roughly translated, applying my 28 years of corporate experience, “Layoffs by Christmas.”

Originally Posted by Flirt Boy
Now I just need to shake the bad taste from the SCQ contact without losing any sleep over it. And maybe eat some food.

Gargle bourbon.
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 06:02 PM
We were told during our resistance training:

"Work harder! Work faster! Or you will be beaten!"

There was also the very well known:

"The beatings will continue until morale improves!"

Office Space also comes to mind.

So is Friday Hawaiian Shirt Day?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 07:57 PM
Thanks to all. Thanks especially to Bugs for politely reminding me that surprising the SCQ with all this at the last minute was bound to cause trouble. I knew that, of course, but it's nice to have friends who aren't afraid to lecture you if you need it.

Seems like a good day so far. I've been in a good mood in spite of the SCQ contact last night, and I'm trying to milk it for all it's worth.

Here's what the SCQ said via email about counseling:

If you have concerns that you feel warrant the children seeing a psycologist then you will need to be specific about those concerns. I do not see it.

Yes what they are going through is significant but that does not necessarily need a mental health professional. Just because you feel it is helpful to you doesn't mean that it is helpful to them. If you need more ways to help them then maybe you seeing a child psycologist (which Dr. Counselor is not) to get additional assistance might be useful.

I am not necessarily opposed to counseling. I am opposed to you deciding it is necessary for the children without even discussing it with me which is why I stopped it.


I'm mulling over response strategies while trying to prevent it from ruining my day.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by Dummo
If you have concerns that you feel warrant the children seeing a psycologist then you will need to be specific about those concerns. I do not see it.

She is unfit. She can see it, she refuses to. Acknowledging that divorce hurts children is admitting her own vast selfishness. It won't happen.

Originally Posted by Dummo Again
If you need more ways to help them then maybe you seeing a child psycologist (which Dr. Counselor is not) to get additional assistance might be useful.
Oh, I get it! Your the one who needs help not the kids.


Here is the scary details that Mel usually provides.


An Exploration of the Ramifications of Divorce on Children and Adolescents -The Pennsylvania State University College of Medicine LINK

• Divorce is an intensely stressful experience for all children, regardless of age or developmental level; many children are inadequately prepared for the impending divorce by their parents. A study in 1980 found that less than 10% of children had support from adults other than relatives during the acute phase of the divorce.

• The pain experienced by children at the beginning of a divorce is composed of: a sense of vulnerability as the family disintegrates, a grief reaction to the loss of the intact family (many children do not realize their parents’ marriage is troubled), loss of the non-custodial parent, a feeling of intense anger as the disruption of the family, and strong feelings of powerlessness.

• Unlike bereavement or other stressful events, it is almost unique to divorcing families that as children experience the onset of this life change, usual and customary support systems tend to dissolve, though the ignorance or unwillingness of adults to actively seek out this support for children.

• Early latency (ages 6½-8): These children will often openly grieve for the departed parent. There is a noted preoccupation with fantasies that distinguishes the reactions of this age group. Children have replacement fantasies, or fantasies that their parents will happily reunite in the not-so-distant future. Children in this developmental stage have an especially difficult time with the concept of the permanence of the divorce.

• Late latency (ages 8-11): Anger and a feeling of powerlessness are the predominate emotional response in this age group. Like the other developmental stages, these children experience a grief reaction to the loss of their previously intact family. There is a greater tendency to label a ‘good’ parent and a ‘bad’ parent and these children are very susceptible to attempting to take care of a parent at the expense of their own needs.

• Adolescence (ages 12-18): Adolescents are prone to responding to their parent’s divorce with acute depression, suicidal ideation, and sometimes violent acting out episodes. These children tend to focus on the moral issues surrounding divorce and will often judge their parents’ decisions and actions. Many adolescents become anxious and fearful about their own future love and marital relationships. However, this age group has the capability to perceive integrity in the post-divorce relationship of their parents and to show compassion for their parents without neglecting their own needs.

Conclusions
• Divorce and its ensuing ramifications can have a significant and life-altering impact on the well being and subsequent development of children and adolescents.

• The consequences of divorce impact almost all aspects of a child’s life, including the parent-child relationship, emotions and behavior, psychological development, and coping skills.

• There is a significant need for child mental health professionals, along with other child specialists, to be cognizant of the broad spectrum of possible fall-out from a divorce and then to provide sufficient support for children of divorced parents in all the necessary psychosocial aspects of the child’s life.

Abuse Risk Seen Worse As Families Change LINK

- Children living in households with unrelated adults are nearly 50 times as likely to die of inflicted injuries as children living with two biological
parents, according to a study of Missouri abuse reports published in the journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics in 2005.


- Children living in stepfamilies or with single parents are at higher risk of physical or sexual assault than children living with two biological or adoptive parents, according to several studies co-authored by David Finkelhor, director of the University of New Hampshire's Crimes Against Children Research Center.

- Girls whose parents divorce are at significantly higher risk of sexual assault, whether they live with their mother or their father, according to research by Robin Wilson, a family law professor at Washington and Lee University. . . .

- The previous version of the study, released in 1996, concluded that children of single parents had a 77 percent greater risk of being harmed by physical abuse than children living with both parents. But the new version will delve much deeper into the specifics of family structure and cohabitation, according to project director Andrea Sedlak.
Originally Posted by her bitchiness, the SCQ
I am opposed to you deciding it is necessary for the children without even discussing it with me which is why I stopped it.

Huh, what about YOU being opposed to the actions she has taken that effect your children without any say from you?

How about: I am opposed to you deciding to destroy our family unit. Until we discuss this and are in agreement, I demand you stop it.



Yeah, I know, not at all helpful. They are just so STOOPID!!!


Fox
Originally Posted by chrisner
Originally Posted by Dummo
If you have concerns that you feel warrant the children seeing a psycologist then you will need to be specific about those concerns. I do not see it.

She is unfit. She can see it, she refuses to. Acknowledging that divorce hurts children is admitting her own vast selfishness. It won't happen.


Here is the scary details that Mel usually provides.


An Exploration of the Ramifications of Divorce on Children and Adolescents -The Pennsylvania State University College of Medicine LINK

• Divorce is an intensely stressful experience for all children, regardless of age or developmental level; many children are inadequately prepared for the impending divorce by their parents. A study in 1980 found that less than 10% of children had support from adults other than relatives during the acute phase of the divorce.

• The pain experienced by children at the beginning of a divorce is composed of: a sense of vulnerability as the family disintegrates, a grief reaction to the loss of the intact family (many children do not realize their parents’ marriage is troubled), loss of the non-custodial parent, a feeling of intense anger as the disruption of the family, and strong feelings of powerlessness.

• Unlike bereavement or other stressful events, it is almost unique to divorcing families that as children experience the onset of this life change, usual and customary support systems tend to dissolve, though the ignorance or unwillingness of adults to actively seek out this support for children.

• Early latency (ages 6½-8): These children will often openly grieve for the departed parent. There is a noted preoccupation with fantasies that distinguishes the reactions of this age group. Children have replacement fantasies, or fantasies that their parents will happily reunite in the not-so-distant future. Children in this developmental stage have an especially difficult time with the concept of the permanence of the divorce.

• Late latency (ages 8-11): Anger and a feeling of powerlessness are the predominate emotional response in this age group. Like the other developmental stages, these children experience a grief reaction to the loss of their previously intact family. There is a greater tendency to label a ‘good’ parent and a ‘bad’ parent and these children are very susceptible to attempting to take care of a parent at the expense of their own needs.

• Adolescence (ages 12-18): Adolescents are prone to responding to their parent’s divorce with acute depression, suicidal ideation, and sometimes violent acting out episodes. These children tend to focus on the moral issues surrounding divorce and will often judge their parents’ decisions and actions. Many adolescents become anxious and fearful about their own future love and marital relationships. However, this age group has the capability to perceive integrity in the post-divorce relationship of their parents and to show compassion for their parents without neglecting their own needs.

Conclusions
• Divorce and its ensuing ramifications can have a significant and life-altering impact on the well being and subsequent development of children and adolescents.

• The consequences of divorce impact almost all aspects of a child’s life, including the parent-child relationship, emotions and behavior, psychological development, and coping skills.

• There is a significant need for child mental health professionals, along with other child specialists, to be cognizant of the broad spectrum of possible fall-out from a divorce and then to provide sufficient support for children of divorced parents in all the necessary psychosocial aspects of the child’s life.

Abuse Risk Seen Worse As Families Change LINK

- Children living in households with unrelated adults are nearly 50 times as likely to die of inflicted injuries as children living with two biological
parents, according to a study of Missouri abuse reports published in the journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics in 2005.


- Children living in stepfamilies or with single parents are at higher risk of physical or sexual assault than children living with two biological or adoptive parents, according to several studies co-authored by David Finkelhor, director of the University of New Hampshire's Crimes Against Children Research Center.

- Girls whose parents divorce are at significantly higher risk of sexual assault, whether they live with their mother or their father, according to research by Robin Wilson, a family law professor at Washington and Lee University. . . .

- The previous version of the study, released in 1996, concluded that children of single parents had a 77 percent greater risk of being harmed by physical abuse than children living with both parents. But the new version will delve much deeper into the specifics of family structure and cohabitation, according to project director Andrea Sedlak.

And the above is your response to her email.
Yipes, PM, your are EXACTLY right.


Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 08:23 PM
Yes, amigo, that was perfect.

Coincidentally, I just got the call from my lawyer. The judgment was recorded last week. I'm in the Plan D club!
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 08:29 PM
Welcome to the D-Line Amigo! I'll get the bourban.

You fought well. Your kids will know that forever.


A couple more for Dummo:

The consequences of divorce on children are far-reaching. One detailed study found that, "five years after the divorce, more than a third of the children were experiencing moderate or severe depression. At ten years a significant number of the now-grown young men and women appeared to be troubled, drifting, and underachieving. At the fifteen-year mark, many of the thirtyish adults were struggling to establish secure love relationships of their own ... Cruelly, the experience of parental divorce damaged many young adults' ability to forge strong attachments of their own, in both their work and their family lives" Barbara Dafoe Whitehead, The Divorce Culture,

A 25-year landmark study of 131 children of divorce demonstrated some alarming facts. "Adolescence begins early in divorced homes and, compared with that of the youngsters raised in intact families, is more likely to include more early sexual experiences for girls and higher alcohol and drug use for girls and boys"
The study also found that "one in four of the children in this study started using drugs and alcohol before their fourteenth birthdays" (p. 188). Cohabitation rates were high among the group. Several of the single young women felt that simply moving in with a man "was safer than marriage because escape was easier if they needed to get out or if the man left" (p. 289). Their reasons boiled down to a distrust of men that resulted when their parents divorced. (Judith Wallerstein, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, 2000, p. 299).



Quote
At ten years a significant number of the now-grown young men and women appeared to be troubled, drifting, and underachieving.

This is exactly what my Bosses kids are going through. His was also a divorce via adultery.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 08:39 PM
SD,

Although it's not a ride you chose to take, Welcome Aboard.

Oh, and the response is already well written out for you above, I agree.

For all of the good it will do.

Remember,,,,,SCQ likes things the way she likes them. (insert appropriate clothing, sippy cup stories here).

So her reply to your sending her the FACTS will be that those are not SPECIFC to HER children. HER children are JUST FINE with HER. Remember, SHE sees them having NO issues.

She will insist on specific examples of why each child needs counseling.

It's not right, it's not fair, but you know that's the way she will respond.

I'd send it anyway. If nothing else, it provides documentation of the work you have done to try to help your kids. May come in handy someday.

Now that you are here on the D-Line, how about everyone heads to the Club Car for a Welcome Aboard Party?!!!! I'll buy the first round.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 08:44 PM
Quote
She will insist on specific examples of why each child needs counseling.

Yep she probably will so preface it with, if you're going to the Congo you should get inoculated for Malaria.

He is divorced now. He can educate SCQ all he wants to now.

Look out yoga girls!
Welcome, Guy Smiley.

I think.

Or....

I'm sorry, sdguy.

Still don't know which one is appropriate.

At least you are in good company, right? wink


Fox

ETA: Even though it is expected, it kind of sneaks up on you when it is final, doesn't it?
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 08:51 PM
Quote
He is divorced now. He can educate SCQ all he wants to now.

Absolutely! I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Just giving a 'heads up' to the expected reply.

Quote
Look out yoga girls!

Is SD going to be learning some new positions? Ooops,,,sorry BC, that question probably should have been yours!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 09:09 PM
Quote
She will insist on specific examples of why each child needs counseling.

I'm going to include a handful of those as well.

So far, it feels anticlimactic, but the news is only about 30 minutes old. I have an appointment scheduled with my IC this afternoon, so it's good timing.

Quote
Welcome, Guy Smiley.

I think.

Or....

I'm sorry, sdguy.

Still don't know which one is appropriate.

Yeah, that's universal from people. Congratulations and I'm sorry.

Yep, good company here on the D-Train. You guys are the best.
That's what I would find difficulty in..... not giving the SCQ EXACTLY what she asked for.

As it stands with WxH, he doesn't ask about DDs and I've learned that it does no good to try to educate him when he doesn't want it.

However.

If he ever asked.........

He'd get the answer right in the kisser with both barrels. flirt


Fox



Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 09:16 PM
Where are the kids tonight? When will they find out?


Quote
That's what I would find difficulty in..... not giving the SCQ EXACTLY what she asked for.

Oh yeah, I agree. That's two emails now where she is asking for it. Time to deliver.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 09:25 PM
Quote
Where are the kids tonight? When will they find out?
They're with the SCQ tonight, but they won't find out anything from her. I'll have to think about how to tell them.

As far as telling the SCQ, I think it needs to be delicate. She's passive-agressive, and she knows she can't win any kind of debate with me, but she doesn't have to.

I just want her to agree to the counseling. She's close right now. If I go nuclear, she will get defensive, dig in, and figure out how to blame me. If I appeal to her concern for the children, I think I can get her to agree.

It's dicey, but I think I will give it a shot.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 09:28 PM
She may not know yet. I have known people who found out their D was final weeks after the fact.

I think Greycloud was one.
Gosh Guy Smiley, I'm sorry to hear this news. I suppose you knew it was coming, but who ever wants to hear this type of news...

As for educating SCQ, well, it could be a complete and utter waste of valuable keyboard strokes. I would see if you can get her to agree. If not, THEN I'd send those lovely tid bits about divorce to her.

Whenever this talk about divorce comes around, it makes me wanna shield DS. Instead, I usually just have an open discussion with him, letting him lead and shut the conversation down when he feels like he's heard and said enough for one night.

As it stands, I am REALLY serious about moving west; looking at jobs and the housing market in Phoenix right now. Seems there are a few biotech firms out there that are up and coming and the industry is growing out there. Cost of living is still pretty low, so my dollar will stretch pretty far.

This type of move will definitely have a negative impact on DS in the short term. I know kids are resilient and blahbetty blah; I sure as heck was, moving overseas at 7 and then back to the states at 12, but I want to spare him as much pain as I can. I really feel like this is my chance to venture out on my own, make a whole new life. I'm not running away, as moving would be a whole lot tougher than stayin' put. Nope. I'm looking to do what is best for me and DS. I can't drop myself out of that equation anymore.

Anyway, I do prattle on, don't I smirk

Guy, we all love you, and hope that you go on to better things. I gotta say, you've got a lot to offer the next gal.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/21/08 11:54 PM
SD,

Well, it's always sad when the news comes whether you knew it was coming or not. And it is sad. My parents were married 60+ years, and I can't imagine what it would have been like had they divorced. Having your mom and dad always there and together is something we just expect. I'm sorry for the kids. And sorry for you too.

Well, you can now plan the rest of your life, at least the near future, with no guilt, knowing that you did everything possible to keep this from happening.

I hope that you stick around. You've been a big help to many of us on here and I would hate to see you leave. Besides, we'll all be curious as to how quickly the A implodes now that the D is final.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/22/08 06:38 AM
Thanks, ladies. I feel pretty okay.

CL, I'll be around. Posting is still therapeutic for me, and sometimes I post my own stuff just because I think it might help someone else. Or make them laugh. And sometimes I even wander onto other peoples' threads and offer support.

SL, I would tell you that there are lots of biotechs in the San Diego area, but San Diego is a pretty expensive place to live.
Originally Posted by Guy
SL, I would tell you that there are lots of biotechs in the San Diego area, but San Diego is a pretty expensive place to live.

Yeah, the cats been outta the bag on that little tidbit for many moons. It would be ideal, but this girl's gotta stretch her dollars. I'll come and visit ya, though wink

Since I didn't make this type of move when I was young, I feel like this is my last major opportunity prior to retirement, which, by the time it came to be my turn, could be when I'm 80
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/22/08 12:52 PM
Man.. lots of stuff in the last few days to trigger over, but you're handling it well and giving a master class to the rest of us.

I'm sorry to hear the D went through, but in a way I'm kind of relieved for you. Your plan though will allow you to wake up every morning and know that the man in the mirror did everything he could to keep his family together.

I am curious though at the changes that will come for you in your thinking in the weeks following this... also kind of curious to see if it changes SCQ's approach to things. It sounds, even in her rejection of the counciling that she's attempting at least to be civil, rather than on the attack as is her usual MO.. and I think you're right that you're going to be better off addressing her directly rather than beating her over the head with the research. Heck.. she even gave you an answer as to how you can get her to agree... a child psychologist might actually be a good idea, rather than someone who typically deals with adults. I'm sure as rampant as divorce and adultery is in this country.. any reputable child psych will be well equipped to help your kids through this, and will probably be even more in tune with their particular needs.

I do however think it's time to take the kid gloves off, and if she's asking for specific examples of why you think this is so hard on the kids.. I'd give them to her. Some of the things the kids have said are troubling, and would be devistating for her to hear.. but you know what? Maybe it's time for her to hear them.. not to hurt SCQ necessarily, but to let her know that one of your main concerns is their relationship with her, and how the new family arrangement is sitting with them, and coloring their perception of her.. Now.. she can go one of two ways on this.. the light -may- come on and she'll realize that she's dug this hole for herself.. or more likely she'll take the easy way out and blame you for orchestrating how her kids feel about her. Here, we know that isn't true.. but you're not responsible for her if she refuses to see the truth.. and getting it in front of a councelor of some sort ought to be the big flashing light that you're -trying- to help in their relationship with her, rather than hurt her, or them in all of this.. I admire you though as I know how difficult it is to be truthful, open, and honest with your kids, and somehow not paint SCQ as she truly is.

hug

Big brother.. you've got a lot of admiration from out here in the cornfields of Indiana. An ex of mine who I still talk to from time to time said something to me that I'm sure most here will support in me saying to you.. 'You're going to suprise someone some day Guy.. At some point, some incredibly lucky woman is going to wake up next to you, and realize exactly what she has and how lucky she is to have it.. and that's going to be the one for you.'

Strangely enough.. this was an ex who broke up with me years and years ago to chase after some other guy.. heh.. my cyclical life I suppose..

She and I are better/best friends anyhow...


But she's right.. and I know it's true for you as well.

Keep your head held high... and don't forget about us here who are still trudging through the bog.
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/22/08 02:15 PM
Hi SD,

I am sorry for the D. We're all here making the best of a situation none of us wanted, and helping each other along the way.

I am glad to hear that you plan to stick around and share, as I certainly look forward to checking in and see how you are doing.

Your honesty, courage, humour, intelligence, concern for others, just to name a few, is very much appreciated.

...and I wish you the best in the NEXT CHAPTER of your life.

hug hugSD hug hug
Originally Posted by silentlucidity
As it stands, I am REALLY serious about moving west; looking at jobs and the housing market in Phoenix right now. Seems there are a few biotech firms out there that are up and coming and the industry is growing out there. Cost of living is still pretty low, so my dollar will stretch pretty far.

Hey, Louisiana's on the way to Phoenix!

kinda

you could make it on the way at least

SD,

I hope you're at least feeling some relief. I was completely indifferent to EXWW by the time it was final, but I still felt a lot of relief. I could see the door open. I felt very free.

Regardless, find some peace Brother, you need it, you deserve it.





Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/22/08 10:47 PM
Hmm. I got really tired this morning. Like, can't concentrate tired. I think my body is processing.

At times, I think I can hear a little voice in the back of my head saying "you can stop now."

I talked with my IC yesterday about counseling for the kids. She was challenging me on whether they really need it (at least partially because the SCQ was opposed to it--I think she tries to prevent me from tilting at windmills, which must mean that I am a challenging patient).

Where does "I am seeing significant signs of trouble from my children and believe they need counseling" end and "I am so pissed off at the SCQ. Maybe if I take the kids to counseling I can make her Get It" begins.

I'm trying to take a step back.
Quote
Hmm. I got really tired this morning. Like, can't concentrate tired. I think my body is processing.

At times, I think I can hear a little voice in the back of my head saying "you can stop now."

Yup, I can relate.

'course, *I* have another little voice in my head that has to argue with THAT voice, telling it that I don't HAVE TO stop now, that I have my reasons for not stopping, etc, etc.

rant2 grumble My head is a very busy little place. No wonder I get tired. grin

Quote
I talked with my IC yesterday about counseling for the kids. She was challenging me on whether they really need it (at least partially because the SCQ was opposed to it--I think she tries to prevent me from tilting at windmills, which must mean that I am a challenging patient).

Sometimes, I think they are just out for everyone to get along. Because that is what is EASIEST.

I'm glad I took DDs to a counselor, even if she wasn't that great for supporting the marriage itself. At least then I knew that I HAD looked for an outside voice, that it was not all just my take on their situation and how they were handling it.

It may only take ONE session to get there. He/She can interview the kiddos, interview you, and give you suggestions on how to best deal with the children. If necessary, he/she will recommend a plan with continuing counseling.

It's not bad to want to know they are ok and you are doing everything for them that you can be, sdguy.

Don't let anyone convice you that if you just got along then everything would be hunky dory for the kids.

Quote
I'm trying to take a step back.

So....you can get a run at her, right? wink

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/23/08 05:09 PM
Quote
'course, *I* have another little voice in my head that has to argue with THAT voice
You crack me up, Fox. That was perfect.

Quote
So....you can get a run at her, right?
And this one, too. It was a double-laugh-out-loud post.

You're a great lady, Fox. SL didn't take my bait on moving to San Diego, but the Del Mar horse park is only a couple of miles from my house. I'm pretty sure they need people who know how to break horses. . . .

Not sure what I'd do without all you guys. I think some of the peace BC talked about is creeping in. I'm watching out for the anger POM warned me about and listening when he says not to date yet. Reading everyone's posts and appreciating everyone's words.

I had a great night with the kids last night and expect another one tonight, and then I get a whole weekend to myself.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/23/08 05:19 PM
Do the kids know yet?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/23/08 05:44 PM
No, I didn't tell them last night. I guess I've been mulling over whether to wait for a counseling session or tell them during a family meeting.

From what I can piece together, the SCQ told them when she moved out (over a year and a half ago) that we were divorced. She would argue that since nothing will change for them, they don't need to hear the legal specifics.

Because they know that we were still married, however, I think I need to tell them, along with "Mommy isn't coming home."

I think I'll do it tonight.
Quote
Because they know that we were still married, however, I think I need to tell them, along with "Mommy isn't coming home."


cry


hugsdguy and youngin's hug



Fox
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/23/08 05:56 PM
Quote
I think I'll do it tonight.

You will be in my thoughts, SD.
I wouldn't find it easy....so I am assuming neither will you...

Is there anything else to iron out with SCQ? ie. finances, kids schedule? (either than the item at hand: counselling)

...because otherwise, contact with SCQ will be reduced to its most MINIMAL and so it COULD be the beginning of some REAL relief for you. I hope so, anyway. pray

One can only keep BREATHING DEEPLY so much, SD! :RollieEyes:
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/23/08 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
From what I can piece together, the SCQ told them when she moved out (over a year and a half ago) that we were divorced. She would argue that since nothing will change for them, they don't need to hear the legal specifics.

Because they know that we were still married, however, I think I need to tell them, along with "Mommy isn't coming home."

I think I'll do it tonight.


Same dang boat brother.. though mine's put off a bit until the legal stuff -is- through..

WW's basically been telling everyone she's divorced for the past year.. including our kids.. but I've been holding station just like you.. and my kids know it.

I can only imagine how difficult the conversation will be..

My thoughts and prayers will be with you man.. I'm sure you'll do just fine.

Posted By: believer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/23/08 06:27 PM
So sorry that you are divorced. I would tell the kids that you are now divorced, and chances are slim that mom will come back.

By the way, did the OM get divorced? I forget.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/23/08 08:01 PM
Quote
By the way, did the OM get divorced?
He filed and went deep enough into the process to buy his wife out of their house and get her moved out. After that, I don't know. Theirs could be complete, or it could be stalled. I've thought about asking OMW, but talking to her is triggering since I imagine she's still letting him cake-eat all over her, so I haven't touched base with her.

I actually called the court the other day, but I was on hold too long waiting for a clerk and gave up. Maybe I'll try again.

It's relevant, I suppose.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/24/08 05:58 AM
Email to the SCQ:

Tonight I told the kids that you and I are now divorced. Lest you chastise me for telling them something inappropriate, both kids knew we were still married. They have known this all along. Not that I'm the one who first told them, but it would have been a lie to tell them otherwise. And it would have been inappropriate not to tell them now that we're divorced.

That you did not seem to know that the kids understood us to be married tells me how little you have been communicating with them. You say that you don't have any concerns about the children--that you don't see anything. I think that this is because you don't want to see anything. I think that you would much rather believe that everything you've done is fine and that everyone is fine with it.

The kids were angry, sad, and hurt. I explained to them that it's okay to have these feelings--they are entitled to feel this way. DS8 seemed angry at you in particular and said as much. Another reason for counseling. I told them that it is okay if they are angry with me. I also told them that I fought as hard as I possibly could to save our marriage.

I tried to convince them that things are not all bad, that we are all okay, that they get to have fun with me and fun when they're with you. They complained that they don't have as much fun with you because POSOM is always there. They want to spend time with you and not him. They told me (again) they don't like POSOM and that they especially don't like going to his house, which they say they do every weekend now. The kids are not stupid, you know. They have figured out why and for whom our marriage ended. (Counseling)

They fear very much you marrying POSOM. DS8 said he doesn't want to go to that wedding.

They told me that they don't like having POSOM's girls around.

When I told DD5 that tomorrow was a Mommy day/Mommy weekend, she cried. Just like the other night when she didn't want to go with you.

I could go on, but I expect you've heard more than you wanted to. I expect that it's made you very angry. I didn't tell you to hurt you. I told you because I'm concerned for our children and want things to be better for them, because I believe they deserve better than what they have now. I think counseling might help them deal with some of this stuff.

Like I said, I expect that you're angry with me and trying to figure out how to hurt me. It's what you do when you're angry, you know. You take it out on me. You threaten me with Family Court Services, or legal bills, or time with the children, or call me names, or tell me I need more shrinks. I'll tell you again--I'm not trying to hurt you with what I've said. If I was trying to hurt you, you'd know, so please don't turn this into an angry email war or blame me for any of it. I'm trying to be the best father I can be for our kids, and that means telling you some things I know you don't want to hear.
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/24/08 06:19 AM
Quote
I'm trying to be the best father I can be for our kids, and that means telling you some things I know you don't want to hear.

hug

Your a good man and a good dad.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/24/08 11:51 AM
Very proud of you Guy..

Thoughts and prayers are with you my man.. I know this has got to be gut wrenching.
Very well done, Guy. I know none of this is easy; the talks with the kids can really take it out of you. It's the best thing, though, to be completely honest with them, at a level they can understand.



hug
Good job, sdguy. There will be some backlash, I'm sure, but you did what you needed to do.

Hugs to you and yours. hug

Fox
Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/24/08 04:40 PM
SD,

I know this wasn't easy...

hug hugSD hug hug
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/24/08 05:10 PM
It was okay talking with the kids. They took it harder than I thought they would but not as hard as they might have. We've already been living like this for, what, 22 months? It really doesn't change anything for them on a day-to-day basis.

They each told me they liked it better when the SCQ lived at home (forgot to include that). I commiserated. Told them that I was sad, angry, and hurt, too. I was empathetic.

I told them more than once that it's okay to have these feelings--they are entitled to them. Has anyone read Gottman's book How to Raise an Emotionally Intelligent Child? I just bought it but haven't gotten very far. It talks about emotion coaching by parents and how that can shield kids from the worst effects of divorce.

I let the kids feel sad for as long as they wanted, which wasn't too long, and then we hung up Halloween decorations, which took their minds off things. The rest of the evening went fine, especially given that both kids were tired.

I like to read to both kids at bedtime, and they like for me to lay down with them while they go to sleep. DS8 generally sleeps on a trundle in DD5's room, so our routine is that first I read to her, then to him, then I lay kind of in between them, but my problem is that DD5 really ought to go to sleep before DS8 and I are done reading. If she's really tired, she falls asleep while I'm still reading, but generally she holds out and probably isn't getting as much sleep as she should. I haven't quite figured this one out other than to move the whole process up a half hour or so, but doing that starts to make it difficult to fit in dinner, baths, homework, and some time to be kids in their house with their dad.

No response from the SCQ yet. I think I will send her a harmless kid-logistics email, which should take some of the sting out of the one from last night and maybe make her less likely to come looking for blood. I have to admit that my whole body tensed up when checking the email account, which is frustrating.

Weekend sans kiddos (except for DD5's soccer game tomorrow and DS8's baseball game on Sunday). The Santa Ana winds are blowing, so it's like sunny and 80 degrees outside. No plans for the weekend. I'm thinking yoga tonight, maybe a massage. Some kids' clothes shopping. Get the car washed. A walk at the beach for sure. I saw a big pod of dolphins on my way to work this morning.

As always, thanks for the kind words and thoughts. Hope everyone has a great weekend.
Posted By: believer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/24/08 05:21 PM
Well, you got some of it out. Now she will email back that YOU are influencing the kids in a bad way and putting ideas into their heads and trying to make them angry with her, that she is innocent, they would be just fine if it wasn't for YOU, blah, blah, blah.....
Posted By: believer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/24/08 05:29 PM
By the way, if you want to check the divorce status of the OM, just google San Diego Superior court, then go to online services, case search.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/24/08 06:00 PM
Quote
By the way, if you want to check the divorce status of the OM, just google San Diego Superior court, then go to online services, case search.
Yeah, I did this and got the case number, but I couldn't find the status online. At least, not for the north county courts. As far as I know, you still have to talk to a clerk. If there's another way, I'd love to hear it.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/24/08 06:34 PM
Hey just got caught up.

She is going to reply to that email and it will be foaming at the keyboard.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/24/08 07:12 PM
Well, I'm in a good mood today, anyway.

If she were going to strike back with the initial anger, I think I would have gotten it already. She will probably let it simmer for a couple of days, either marshalling her resources, consulting with POSOM, or trying to determine how she can hurt me. Now it will be a little game each time I check my email, kind of like Calvin waiting for the propeller-beanie from the cereal box, except maybe inversed.

Or maybe she will bring POSOM to the soccer game.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/24/08 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Single Guy
She will probably let it simmer for a couple of days, either marshalling her resources, consulting with POSOM, or trying to determine how she can hurt me.

Yep.

Go to that game tomorrow and put on a real show. Dress good, look good, lots of smiles, lots of laughs and greet everyone like a politician. Give all the single ladies a little jump start. Plan A the whole world.

Welcome to the new world SD.
Posted By: chrisner Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/24/08 07:27 PM
Now that we are all in the same boat, maybe it's time for you, BC and I to do a road trip.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/24/08 07:46 PM
I just found out POSOM's divorce was complete on July 1 of this year.
Posted By: howtoheal Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/24/08 07:46 PM
A World Tour!!!!

Think of a name.....

I think Fall Out Boy is already taken.....
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/24/08 07:47 PM
SD:

About this:
Quote
Or maybe she will bring POSOM to the soccer game.

Perhaps. She is free to do so. Just like one day soon you might so up with your new woman.

However, even if he does show up, do the super Plan A thing as described by Chris.

Remember, SHE wanted THIS. Now she has it. And if POSOM hasn't followed through with his, then its just one more miscalc on her part.

Its been 22 months since Dday. It should be about two months from implosion of the A. Many say that the A needs a M to survive, and you have taken the oxygen from the room.

I'm surprized the screeching post ala "Harry Potter" that is smoking in the email box hasn't come yet. I think you were right in your post to advise her against it. It will come in a much more sly manner. She will "keep" the kids longer, or not be "available" at the pick up time. She just might leave them at her house one day with POSOM, and drive over to your house at the appropriate time to personally verbally abuse you. You can just turn your head about 45 degrees like Lassie and stare at her without comprehending, at all.

The cash from the refinance should be running out in a couple of months too. Burn, baby, Burn.

Chin up, SD Guy. Your doing well. The "final" day, wasn't really that much. It's like passing the sign, "Thank you for visiting" when you leave some towns/states. It marks a border, but not your destination.

LG
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/25/08 12:09 AM
Quote
The "final" day, wasn't really that much. It's like passing the sign, "Thank you for visiting" when you leave some towns/states. It marks a border, but not your destination.

Thanks, LG. I like the way you put that.

Tomorrow our name is on the schedule for the soccer team snack. Since it is her day, I am assuming she will bring it, but I sent the following email earlier today:

I'll drop DS8's uniform off at your place this afternoon. It might still be damp. I'll be at the game Sunday in case I forget something, like his shoes.

I think I found the last pair of size 3 Nike velcro running shoes in North America (same model as the ones the bush ate, I think) and ordered them yesterday. Not sure when they will get here.

I'm guessing you're going to do snack tomorrow. If you want me to bring something or take care of the whole snack, let me know.


No response yet.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/25/08 12:25 AM
Well, I'm glad to see that you finally got to lash out somewhat. You did good. Elegant but with a nice little twist of the knife. You know she won't let you get away with it because she is the poster child for 1-upmanship. I'm totally surprised that you haven't gotten a response yet.

Well, looks like POSOM has no excuse not for not making this legal. The next few months will be interesting. Am I wrong or will this be his third M?

Have a great weekend. You certainly deserve it.

Posted By: lunamare Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/25/08 01:53 PM
SD,

Quote
Weekend sans kiddos (except for DD5's soccer game tomorrow and DS8's baseball game on Sunday). The Santa Ana winds are blowing, so it's like sunny and 80 degrees outside. No plans for the weekend. I'm thinking yoga tonight, maybe a massage. Some kids' clothes shopping. Get the car washed. A walk at the beach for sure. I saw a big pod of dolphins on my way to work this morning.

Enjoy!

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/25/08 05:48 PM
Response from the SCQ. It works quite well for me.

I'm not angry with you I feel sorry for you. It is not even worth discussing most of what you wrote. You have no business even thinking you know what I believe or talk with the kids about.

We may not have been divorced but we certainly were not married. Our marriage ended at 14 years. The past 2 year have been a legal separation while getting everything in order. We certainly were not married.
Posted By: cinderella Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/25/08 05:53 PM
:RollieEyes:
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Confessions of a Gerbil-Lunger-At-er - 10/25/08 07:42 PM
SD, you pathetic sap......

grin

I can't wait until that A has the big melt down....
Posted By: awaywithwords Re: How do I do this? - 10/25/08 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Express your feelings w/o DJing.

Say things like, "I'm really angry right now."

Just saying you're angry will help lesson your anger.

OTOH, have you heard about the F-U Plan?

Although it isn't recommended at MB, there have been some BS's that have found this plan to be exactly what was needed to bring their WS out of the fog. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

~ Marsh

The link here is broken. Could anyone PLEASE tell me about the F-U plan. I'm really interested in this!
Posted By: lunamare Re: How do I do this? - 10/29/08 01:57 PM
Hi SD,

Bumping up to see how you are doing. cool

Posted By: cinderella Re: How do I do this? - 10/29/08 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by awaywithwords
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
OTOH, have you heard about the F-U Plan?

~ Marsh

The link here is broken. Could anyone PLEASE tell me about the F-U plan. I'm really interested in this!




Oh, the floral undies plan? I buy those at Target.
Posted By: chrisner Re: How do I do this? - 10/29/08 04:16 PM
I thought it was the Fantastic Ukuleles Plan.
Posted By: cinderella Re: How do I do this? - 10/29/08 04:43 PM
rotflmao
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How do I do this? - 10/29/08 06:10 PM
Thanks for asking, Luna.

I'm doing well. I had my first full weekend as a divorced man (that I knew about, anyway), and . . . it was pretty much like the rest of my weekends.

Yoga Friday night. Mid-morning soccer game for DD5 (after receiving the SCQ's response to my email). I ignored the SCQ and talked with DS8 and another mom. Some shopping afterwards (clothes for kids without making them try things on, plus I went to Michael's--the mother load of 'stash,' right, CL?). A movie Saturday night. Sunday morning baseball game for DS8 (the SCQ brought him), then I watched football with one neighbor and baseball later with another neighbor.

I almost felt like I didn't get enough time at home by myself on Sunday. I'm ready to get the kids back, though. They come home today, and I have them through the weekend. With Halloween and all that goes with it (our neighborhood does the "You've Been Booed" thing), I'm sure I'll be exhausted by Monday.

The SCQ's response to my email was predictably worthless. She didn't attack me, but her head is firmly in sand. It's none of your business what I believe or tell the kids. Huh? They're our kids. And We were not married anymore (so what I was doing was not Wrong). Beside the point, of course--I was talking about what the kids believed, not what either of us believe. It's within the last month that DD5 referred to the SCQ as 'my wife.'

I have been mentally composing a response that will set her straight, but I think I'll teach some algebra to the plant in my office instead. It will be vastly more productive.

And sorry for the delay, Away. Both Cinders and Chris are wrong. Plan FU (also known as Plan Free Ululation) is when you stop trying to protect the WS and just yell at them instead. Whenever the WS starts to say something, you let loose with a wail, preferably one of the high trilling yells common from stereotypical desert Arabs in movies, so that you can't hear them talking. Then repeat until the WS gets frustrated, goes away, and leaves you alone, which is what you really want, anyway.

No, wait, that's not really Plan FU. Plan FU is not MB-sanctioned or recommended, although Jennifer did think the name was funny. It's when you break your plan B long enough to unload on the WS. All the things you've been protecting them from: all the feelings you've held in, all the lousy wicked stuff they have done, all the stupid mistakes they have made and where they will almost certainly lead, all the things you've wanted to say but know you shouldn't--you let it out on the WS in one unleashed torrent. It has been done before, although I can't recall who originally coined the term.

It's not recommended. The high road is recognizing that the WS can't hear any of that stuff you want to tell them. They're simply not capable of understanding it, so why bother saying it? It will only make them more defensive and angry. You might get some relief from it, but it will likely be short-lived.

So that's my understanding of Plan Free Ululation. Others can chime in.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: How do I do this? - 10/29/08 06:44 PM
Firmly locked in the.. I left you so we were divorced school of thought eh?

Yeah.. it's funny.. or would be if she hadn't tried pushing that kind of delusionment onto the kids.. you know it had to take some explaining.. I know in the case of my kids it took DS by complete suprise when I mentioned a few weeks ago that his mommy and I were still married... he wanted to argue with me about it.. boy was that an interesting little convo.. I'm sure that's all part of the stuff I'm not supposed to talk about with DS that she sent in her email, but hey.. I've never lied to my boy and I'm not about to start now.. if she wants to destroy her credibility with him, that's tragic and sad.. but her business... same story with SCQ bro.


Honestly.. it doesn't really sound like you're going to get her to agree to counseling. I'd place a quick call to the A to see what your options are, and then go anyhow if he/she says it'd be ok. I'd even go so far as to make it a pediatric psych to appease her request... 'well I -did- what you told me!'

laugh

Keep hangin in there guy..

Oh.. and as for Plan FU.. Guy's right.. essentially it's Lovebusting to the n'th degree.. and you're probably also right about the impact it'll likely have... though if you're no longer interested in recovering the M... well.. I'm wondering if it wouldn't provide just that bit of closure.. the sound of the door clicking closed...
Posted By: cinderella Re: How do I do this? - 10/29/08 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Some shopping afterwards (clothes for kids without making them try things on, plus I went to Michael's--the mother load of 'stash,' right, CL?).

Michael's and JoAnn will do. JoAnn has more from which to choose. But, if you want good stash, you have to go to a LYS! Quantity is one thing. QUALITY is another!

Originally Posted by sdguy038
Both Cinders and Chris are wrong. Plan FU (also known as Plan Free Ululation) is when you stop trying to protect the WS and just yell at them instead. Whenever the WS starts to say something, you let loose with a wail, preferably one of the high trilling yells common from stereotypical desert Arabs in movies, so that you can't hear them talking. Then repeat until the WS gets frustrated, goes away, and leaves you alone, which is what you really want, anyway.

Chris and I were right. There are various forms of Plan FU. SD's sounds like more fun. You realize that, even if they didn't get frustrated and leave, they would leave anyway because that noise would cause migraines if they stayed near you.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: How do I do this? - 10/29/08 07:22 PM
" Oh, the floral undies plan? "

No, don't you mean the FPUP, flora print undies plan?
Posted By: Jamesus Re: How do I do this? - 10/29/08 07:24 PM
FPUP?

Free Peek Under Prostate? I think most WH's have their heads placed firmly in the right position for this!
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: How do I do this? - 10/29/08 07:33 PM
SD,

Funny how there is a difference when she tells the kids something - it's none of your business, but whatever you tell them has to be sanctioned by her. UGH

But, you made it to the finish line in one piece. I have a feeling that your life will take a turn for the better now. You did an excellent job and I nominate you for MB Plan B poster boy of the decade. You'll go down in the anals of MB history. You know, for posterior's sake. grin

On the stash thing - Cinder is right. Michaels is all of the fake fiber stuff. We have the good stuff - the real thing!! Right off the animal.




Posted By: TheRoad Re: How do I do this? - 10/29/08 07:39 PM
If you were to implement your plan FU, you would be breaking plan B. If one was to break plan B, why would they of done the plan B in the first place?

I think you would be better served to go 100% dark plan B.
You should not be reading her emails that she sends you or any other form of contact.
sg

WW has not changed her spewing. Hearing her spew only grates at you. You will never reach her or get any acknowledgement from her.

WW is locked into how it was or is your fault for her life sucking, her having an affair, that you mad the marriage fail, etc.....

WW is so far up the river "Denial" she has to only go around one more bend before she will be at the river's source.

Time to block her and force her to use a third party of your choice for every thing.

If you truly don't want any more WW drama then you must go totally dark. Even with child exchanges. Neutral place where the one parent drops off the kid and leaves so the pickup parent can arrive and not have contact.
Posted By: lunamare Re: How do I do this? - 10/29/08 08:04 PM
Hi SD,

Glad to see you stuck to your weekend plans....'business as usual' I think is a healthy way to approach it. Even more so, is to see it as...opening doors....lifting the weight off the shoulders.... a new chapter...

I agree...Plan FU is NOT recommended for a reason...it's short-term relief for long-term headache! ...already a challenge as it is to deal with a WS...n'est-ce pas?

...although, I am wondering, if Plan FU thoughts are burning too many brain cells...using some pillows (or a punching bag) as a stand-in could provide SOME temporary relief...without any of the negative side effects!

I wondered how it was like seeing WS at kids' games.... I no longer need to wonder... I joined the club as of yesterday... DS17 is playing hockey... WS was there... I guess I can expect some 'awkward moments' to come up.... I just sit...nowhere near WS!



Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How do I do this? - 10/29/08 08:50 PM
Quote
I wondered how it was like seeing WS at kids' games

I'm used to it now. I always have on sunglasses so that she can't tell what I'm looking at, but for the most part, I pay attention to the game and ignore her.

Sometimes I feel conspicuous and wish I had a sign that said "Yes, I am divorced, but it's because my wife was an adulteress." I'm working on that one. I'm making it out to be a much bigger deal than it is.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: How do I do this? - 10/29/08 09:02 PM
Quote
Sometimes I feel conspicuous and wish I had a sign that said "Yes, I am divorced, but it's because my wife was an adulteress." I'm working on that one. I'm making it out to be a much bigger deal than it is.

I hear that.

Today I had to go to a progress meeting out of town for one of our projects. One of the architects and the "new" guy from our office were there also. The new guy and I were in the car waiting for the architect. He asked how long I had worked for this company.....and then asked what my husband did.

think

First thing that ran through my mind was "well, I can tell you WHO he did."

But I quickly put a cap on it - stumbled for a moment and said "well, I'm divorced now." I had to stop myself from explaining further.

It was just an icky feeling. Not the new guys fault at all but still icky. Then I felt like I needed to correct it because I don't think I said it well. KWIM? I felt like I needed to let him know how long I was married and that I really did try - I didn't just get married and call it quits a couple of years later.

I didn't....but felt a weird urge to do so.

Fox

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How do I do this? - 10/29/08 09:07 PM
Quote
they would leave anyway because that noise would cause migraines if they stayed near you.

As long as they go away. . . .

Quote
You did an excellent job and I nominate you for MB Plan B poster boy of the decade.
There are those who would tell you that my Plan B has been flawed for a lack of darkness, but it has been Jennifer-approved, and I really don't think that more darkness would have made anything different (other than to make the SCQ a little more angry). In my case, the contact caused me pain, so more darkness would have spared me pain, which would have given me the endurance to go longer, but I think I've gone long enough, don't you?

That's all beside the point, which was your praise, which I really appreciate. smile

Oops. And now that I said that, it sounds like I'm addressing TheRoad, which I honestly wasn't (I was thinking of people who might disagree with CL that my plan B was noteworthy), but now I guess I need to. TR, I appreciate the thoughts, but I'm divorced now after, what, 21 months in Plan B? Long enough.

Right now, I'm visualizing a place where my instinctive reaction to the SCQ isn't Go [censored] Yourself and mulling over strategies on how to get there. I'm stuck with the SCQ as the mother of my children. I need to make the best of it. I anticipate that I will be able to get to That Place without having to Freely Ululate, but I'm going to take my time with it.

I will add that I just don't believe it is realistic to go 100% dark when you have split custody of two small children. Jennifer said the same.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How do I do this? - 10/29/08 09:13 PM
Quote
First thing that ran through my mind was "well, I can tell you WHO he did."

rotflmao

Quote
I didn't....but felt a weird urge to do so.

I usually do. At the beginning of the school year, I sent letters to each of my kids' teachers explaining what was going on and, specifically, why I wouldn't be attending parent-teacher conferences with the SCQ.

It's all something I'm working on. I know that it's not my fault. What I need to get over is the Wrongness of it, because it's not going to help anyone. If I can do that, maybe I won't feel the need to apologize for it.

It still feels like failure, and I don't like failing. I don't want to be perceived as someone who failed. A hang up. Self-confidence thing. Work in progress.
Posted By: believer Re: How do I do this? - 10/29/08 10:19 PM
"We may not have been divorced but we certainly were not married."

Wow, that's exactly what my ex and OW said. OW's hubby said that he wished that he had known - since he was faithful all the time he was overseas.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: How do I do this? - 10/29/08 10:39 PM

I understand the feeling of failure and that 'need to explain' that you and Foxx mentioned today.

More often than not, these days, I simply state the fact that he chose an affair. Frankly, it pretty well shuts down most of the conversations that I don't want to have in the first place.

SD, you are going to be going through yet another adjustment period now that the D is final. Recognize it, but try not to let yourself get caught up in any expectations of yourself. I am still struggling some with the 'I should be {fill in the blank} by now.'

I should be over Drac. I should be able to co-parent without being triggered. I should be extremely comfortable with dating. I should be ready for another relationship. I should be this or I should be that.

I'm not most of those things,,,,,,,,,,,yet.

All in good time.


Posted By: lunamare Re: How do I do this? - 10/30/08 05:07 PM
Quote
I understand the feeling of failure and that 'need to explain' that you and Foxx mentioned today.

...I struggle with this too.

Quote
I should be over Drac. I should be able to co-parent without being triggered. I should be extremely comfortable with dating. I should be ready for another relationship. I should be this or I should be that.

...this, too.

...don't have to say much...you've all said it! rotflmao

Quote
Right now, I'm visualizing a place where my instinctive reaction to the SCQ isn't Go [censored] Yourself and mulling over strategies on how to get there. I'm stuck with the SCQ as the mother of my children. I need to make the best of it. I anticipate that I will be able to get to That Place without having to Freely Ululate, but I'm going to take my time with it.

SD, ...please do share when you figured this out! pray
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How do I do this? - 10/30/08 06:52 PM
Quote
SD, ...please do share when you figured this out!
It's all part of the Letting Go stuff, I think. This is What Is. What good does getting angry about it do?

I'm not spending a lot of time thinking about it--just recognizing that I don't want to stay in this place forever. I recognize that a Place where I am in some kind of harmony with the SCQ will be better for my children and better for me.

I think the path to That Place is called Forgiveness.

I'll discuss it with my IC and continue to mull it over.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: How do I do this? - 10/30/08 07:03 PM
I think you're absolutely right SD


The tough part about forgiveness though.. on something like this.. is that you've got to continue to do it.. almost on a daily basis until it just becomes part of the routine I think.


If not.. every time you see a symptom of the damage the A and subsequent D has done to the kids, you will simply compile more and more.. making it more difficult to forgive.


I think that's really the lingering struggle.. at least for me it is.

I see my son, and my stepdaughter struggle as a direct result of her decision.. and know that -they- deserve better. That's probably what I get most angry with WW over.. and I still consistently wonder if one of two things needs to happen.

A particularly virulant string of Plan FU.. which we've discussed the limited benefit vs lasting damage of... or an end to the A.. hopefully with a duration of time that WW can truly do some self analysis with before she spreads her legs for the next sugar daddy.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: How do I do this? - 10/30/08 08:22 PM


I don't disagree that forgiveness and letting go is what it takes.

Yet, when I find myself getting to the place where I feel I've let go/forgiven, the easy communication you speak of begins to happen. It's friendly even. THAT is when I get messed up because the love isn't gone. Every 'good' exchange leaves me pining for more than what it really IS.

So, yet again BR comes to mind - "It is what it is".

Sorry, guess that's not very helpful is it??

Since I can't offer much 'help', how about a hug?

hugSD hug

Posted By: chrisner Re: How do I do this? - 10/30/08 08:39 PM
Quote
So, yet again BR comes to mind - "It is what it is".

DD and I HATE that phrase. It was a post D-Day favorite of Wayzilla's that she used on both of us in much excess. She had never used that phrase before.

DD does a mimic of WayZ still, "It is what it is." with a Scarlet O'Hara air.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: How do I do this? - 10/30/08 10:23 PM
Quote
Every 'good' exchange leaves me pining for more than what it really IS.
Hmm. A good reason not to rush into things, I guess. Thanks for the perspective, though.

Something that should help is beginning to see the SCQ for the small, limited person that she is (and always was) rather than the person that I have wanted her to be/convinced myself she was. I think POSOM likes that she is small and malleable, which is why the affair won't die any time soon.
Posted By: sdguy038 The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/03/08 06:52 PM
It was a great weekend with the kids, but now I'm exhausted. Friday getting home in time to carve pumpkins, roast pumpkin seeds (DD5: We're going to roast the seeds, right, Daddy? SDG: Gee, when you put it that way, I guess so. But they turned out really good), eat something not sugar-based, trick-or-treat, and then finish the night at a neighborhood Halloween party. There was backyard theater (LCD projection onto a sheet) showing of Ghostbusters. Probably a bit too much for DD5, who watched it snuggling in my lap, but it's pretty cute listening to her doing the theme song (Who you gonna call?) around the house now.

Saturday recovery and soccer game for DD5. DS8 was bored at the soccer game and didn't hesitate to let me know. DD5 is take-it-or-leave-it about soccer. She has the tools, but she would have to actually want the ball enough to sometimes take it away from the other girls, and she's just too tentative. I think she doesn't really care, either, which is fine. She has fun running around and occasionally taking the goal kicks and at the practices and running through the parent tunnel at the end of the game. It's all good.

Another neighbor party Saturday night because they wanted to help me celebrate the divorce. I wasn't comfortable doing that with the kids there, so it was just families getting together to barbecue. Fun stuff.

Sunday DS8 had a baseball game at the same time that DD5 had a birthday party, so I got to put in plenty of driving yesterday.

Tonight I figure to hit the couch after I get home from my yoga class.

Hope everyone has a good week.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: How do I do this? - 11/03/08 07:02 PM
Originally Posted by chrisner
DD does a mimic of WayZ still, "It is what it is." with a Scarlet O'Hara air.

rotflmao
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/04/08 02:30 PM
SD,

Sounds like a great weekend to me, even if it was a bit exhausting!

You don't mention much about how you are feeling. I don't know if that is because you don't think you have much to report, or if you are holding back a bit. I know in the days following the offical D, I was a rollercoaster of emotions.

I 'tried' to do the 'celebration' thing, but it just didn't work for me. I then went into a bit of depression but soon rallied back with an eye to the future. A 'new' future. One that I didn't really want, but tried to envision as a positive. Fact of the matter is, I still have times of that rollercoaster feeling, but it's evened out a great deal over time.

I guess I just wanted to let you know that no matter how you are feeling, we all can appreciate & understand it. Don't feel obligated to share or think about it too much,,,,I'm not trying to pry but just offering a bit of support FWIW.

Hope you relaxed at yoga and rested well.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/11/08 09:06 PM
Quote
You don't mention much about how you are feeling.
That was such a great question, Bugs, that it took me a whole week to answer it. I don't really know how I'm feeling. Somewhere between okay and good most of the time, I guess.

I guess the underlying issues I still struggle with are that 1) divorce feels like failure, and 2) the affair was wrong.

I'm, what, chagrined to tell people I'm divorced? Walking away from kids' sporting events without a kid, being the single parent dining out with the kids--it nags at my streak of perfectionism. People will respect me less because they know I couldn't save my marriage is what that annoying subconscious/fear/self-doubt whispers to me when I let it.

And I can still feel residual anger over what the SCQ and POSOM did and how they did it. The wrongness and injustice and stupidity and wastefulness and insanity and evil of it all. How it continues to affect my kids.

But these things don't dominate the way they used to. They are much more in the background. Echoes, almost. And the answers to them are, of course

1) Yes, divorce is failure, but it's not MY failure. I did everything I possibly could to save the marriage. It's not my fault.

and

2) Yes, the affair was wrong. So what? It is. What do you want, a plaque? Are you going to get over it or not?

So I'm okay and getting better all the time. I don't miss the SCQ at all. Occasionally I miss my wife, but even that isn't very often. I miss companionship, but I really value my alone time. I'm giving myself time before getting serious about seeking out a relationship, but it doesn't mean I'm not keeping my eyes open.

The kids have responded to the things I have told them about talking to me. DS8 told me recently about being angry because of the "D-word." They talk more openly about their time at POSOM's house (they spend all their weekends there now), and it is easier for me to let them do this.

The atmosphere at work is a drag. Layoffs are in the air here, but the industry as a whole is lousy. The biggest pharma employer here in San Diego just laid off 340 people (30% of their workforce, I think), including a bunch of people who used to be colleagues of mine. Just like the rest of the economy, I guess, but pharma is a bit worse these days.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/11/08 09:10 PM
Thanks for the update, Guy Smiley. I can relate to all those things you said regarding the Big D.

Your kiddos are so lucky that you are willing to keep the lines of communication with them open. It is so important for them to be heard by someone.

Hang in there.

Fox
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/11/08 09:14 PM
Quote
People will respect me less because they know I couldn't save my marriage is what that annoying subconscious/fear/self-doubt whispers to me when I let it.

Honestly SD, people in general are normally so self-absorbed that they don't notice or care what's going on in other people's lives (except here on MB grin).

But for those small-minded ones who may think you are less respectable because you're (gasp!) divorced, you know the truth, and that's what counts in the end.
Big Pharma's got Bad Karma these days. I work with quite a few of them, and there is one large company, in particular, that has had waves of layoffs over the last two years; this time around, they are calling it 'restructuring'; moving a lot of people around in the departments, spreading them a bit thinner. I dunno, I have always done the work of two, so it wouldn't be much of a shift for me, but I work for a small private company, a CRO, and we usually do well in times when Big Pharma are having layoff season, because they become desperate to keep the work moving along and need our 'hands' to get the materials to them.

And, about others seeing you as some kind of failure, well, that's generally bullpucky. If those people closest to you know the deal, they will be proud to call you friend. I know I am.

SCQ failed the marriage, because she bailed without so much as a sincere effort. You done good, Guy. Now is your time. Enjoy it. You never know what's just around the bend. Could be really good stuff. You could put all your MB knowledge to work and have a fantastic relationship with the next lucky lady wink
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/11/08 09:34 PM
Quote
Honestly SD, people in general are normally so self-absorbed that they don't notice or care what's going on in other people's lives (except here on MB ).

But for those small-minded ones who may think you are less respectable because you're (gasp!) divorced, you know the truth, and that's what counts in the end.

And, about others seeing you as some kind of failure, well, that's generally bullpucky.

Yeah, I know (but thanks!). It's the reconciliation between what the conscious mind knows and what the subconscious mind tells us when we sleep. It's something we perfectionists can use to torture ourselves with. I'll bring it up with my IC.

Quote
Big Pharma's got Bad Karma these days.
You said it. CRO's are one of the few good places to be right now, I think.

I think everyone has had layoffs lately, but in 2005 my company called it Adapting to Scale. It got shorted to AtS, which then became a verb ("Hey, whatever happened to Harold?" "He got AtS-ed." In 2007 it was called Transformation. They haven't told us yet what it's called this time around.
Posted By: chrisner Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/11/08 09:38 PM
Quote
Walking away from kids' sporting events without a kid, being the single parent dining out with the kids--it nags at my streak of perfectionism. People will respect me less because they know I couldn't save my marriage is what that annoying subconscious/fear/self-doubt whispers to me when I let it.

You caught me. I troll around ball parks and restaurants all the time looking for single parents to disrespect. Then when I spot one I run up and say, “Haaa Haaaa.” All my friends do it to. We mock people who don't disrespect single parents and call them wienies.


Or NOT.



Quote
it nags at my streak of perfectionism.

So.......



Snap Out of It!




Posted By: chrisner Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/11/08 09:40 PM
Quote
Adapting to Scale.

I have been "Right Sized" once.

I think I liked being layed off better.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/11/08 09:53 PM
Sdguy,

I've seen Chrisner do this, btw. He's not making it up. He's on four official watch lists as an overactive member of the Haven't Adapted At All activist group. Luckily, that breathmint amendment passed, didn't it, Chrisner?

I have an inner-ear infection. I know in my mind that the room is not spinning, the computer is not jumping up and down.

Still feels like it is...my arms automatically go out to steady, hold or stop the walls, the bed, the monitor (in my case, removing the gigantic spring I forgot I set it on)...

reasonable. Understandable. Not in my control. Taking antibiotic and a travel sickness otc meds...first time in my life for motion-sickness something...and funnily enough, NOW I'm nauseous...wasn't before I took it.

Perfectionism isn't over-rated...it's what keeps us safe from having really intimate, honest connections with others. What a payoff.

LA
Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/11/08 09:55 PM
I've been down sized a few times. It sure feels alot like being layed off. I really couldn't tell the difference.

and the economy's not in the crapper either. See, it was overinflated and now it's simply readjusting itself.

Overinflated = bad
Readjusting = good

Does everyone feel better now?

Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/11/08 10:03 PM
Does it remind you of Chiropractic Economics?

Thanks, BC.

LA
Posted By: cinderella Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/12/08 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by chrisner
Quote
Adapting to Scale.

I have been "Right Sized" once.

I think I liked being layed off better.


rotflmao

Chrisner, your slaying me!!!!!

rotflmao

The SNAP OUT OF IT! remark was on the mark.

rotflmao






I've been divorced for so long.....my children are so big.....I think it's been forever since I've been laid on.

rotflmao
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/12/08 04:19 AM
SD,

I'm with you on the failure thing. It feels like it to me too. Like I should have made the M more of a priority, I should have done this better or that better. Feels like I failed at something.

A friend of mine has me convinced to call the medium at www.bestmediums.w.uk

I've hit rock bottom.....
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/12/08 08:00 AM
Quote
I'm with you on the failure thing.
I talked with my IC on this one, and she says she's never talked to a divorced person who *didn't* feel this way. Whether they had excellent reasons for being divorced or not, they (we) all feel like it is failure. Just something to go through.

It gets better.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/12/08 02:12 PM
SDG:

Would it make you feel better if I told you that I failed my marriage too?

Sure, I fixed alot of things with Flamingo.

But I certainly failed my marriage at many levels also.

It's what you do next that matters.

LG
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/12/08 04:46 PM
Hey SD!!

Quote
It gets better.

Is that YOU saying it with conviction, speaking from personal experience or is that you quoting your counselor?


I agree, it does get better - just checking to see how you are feeling about it.

LG makes a perfect point - - what does matter is what each of us does next. You have made such strides through all of this and are at a different place than you were in your marriage. All of us are. It's building on the positive changes we have made & using all that we have learned that will play such major roles in our futures. I see good futures for all of us.

You, my friend, are going to make some special woman very happy someday. I so admire you for all you have done, and all you continue to do in your life. Your kids already know what a wonderful father you are, and someday when they are older, they will realize it in even more ways as they come to understand everything. You are a shining example to them. Take pride in that SUCCESS!!

hug SDGuy hug

Posted By: cinderella Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/12/08 05:17 PM
I've lived long enough to state, with total conviction, that it does get better.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/12/08 09:09 PM
Quote
Is that YOU saying it with conviction, speaking from personal experience or is that you quoting your counselor?
Both. It gets a little better every day, and I know that it's only going to get better. Putting my finger on the underlying issues (and posting about them, and having Chris make fun of them) helps make it easier to recognize that they are silly.

And I've overblown them by posting about them. On Saturday it was a split-second recognition as I was walking away from the soccer game, but my head was high and I went about my day. No big deal.

Quote
It's what you do next that matters.

My IC talks about coming out the other side. That's when you can really start to feel better--when you emerge from the whole ordeal. She asked me about dating, and I told her I miss the companionship. That I'm not *really* trying, but that my eyes are open.

Quote
I see good futures for all of us.
Thanks, as always, for your kind words, Bugs. I saw lots of Bug Bombs this morning, but no Bugs Update. Is there a foot-tapping emotiocon? Fox would know.


Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/12/08 09:20 PM
Quote
Is there a foot-tapping emotiocon? Fox would know.

What's that supposed to mean? grumble grumble


Just kiddin'.



dance2 Fox

ETA: and no, there isn't a foot-tapping emoticon. grin
Posted By: Amazin Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/13/08 02:40 AM
O.K.

Here's an opportunity to treat me like a dumb blonde....


I always thought SDGUY038 was.... “South Dakota Guy”... I never thought about it being San Diego Guy until I read one of your earlier entries about San Diego Pharmacy Companies "Down-Sizing"...

Too funny huh...

By the way... The military calls that "Right Sizing" Which is really bugging me.... Because it ain’t Right...
Posted By: lunamare Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/18/08 02:47 PM
Hi SD,

Quote
I talked with my IC on this one, and she says she's never talked to a divorced person who *didn't* feel this way. Whether they had excellent reasons for being divorced or not, they (we) all feel like it is failure. Just something to go through.

...I guess there is some comfort in knowing it's 'normal' to feel like a failure...and especially that we are in such good company!

Quote
It gets better.

...if you and Cind say so, I guess so.

Looking forward to reduce feeling like I have been 'struggling'... forever!
sigh



Posted By: cinderella Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/18/08 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by lunamare
Hi SD,

Quote
I talked with my IC on this one, and she says she's never talked to a divorced person who *didn't* feel this way. Whether they had excellent reasons for being divorced or not, they (we) all feel like it is failure. Just something to go through.

...I guess there is some comfort in knowing it's 'normal' to feel like a failure...and especially that we are in such good company!

Quote
It gets better.

...if you and Cind say so, I guess so.

Looking forward to reduce feeling like I have been 'struggling'... forever!
sigh

It takes a while....but it does. Memories of what was or could have been come back sometimes but it does get better.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/18/08 03:15 PM
SD,

Do you remember where your Jennifer letter is? Approx. date?
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/18/08 04:26 PM
You've been quiet for awhile. I hope your shoulders aren't covering your ears so you don't hear our callouts.

What up, Amigo?


Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/18/08 09:45 PM
Quote
I hope your shoulders aren't covering your ears so you don't hear our callouts.
Nah, quite the opposite. Things have been quiet. Cricketish, even. No emails other than harmless logistics stuff, so I've been quite relaxed. I even addressed the SCQ personally at DS8's baseball game the other day about the kid swap.

Not much to say. I dug out a Jennifer letter and posted it over on CL's thread. Just digging around in my thread, a year ago at this time I was stressed over Christmas ornaments. If she asks for more of them this year, I will tell her she can have whatever of them she wants and buy new ones.

Peace is good.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/18/08 09:52 PM
The quiet can be a bit deafening after the D-train blows by. But you get used to it and end up really enjoying it!

I'd rather be a BS after the D than a WS.

Glad things are going well for you.

Quote
If she asks for more of them this year, I will tell her she can have whatever of them she wants and buy new ones.

And here is where we part ways. grin I'd tell her to take a flying leap.

But that's just me. wink


Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/18/08 10:10 PM
Quote
at this time I was stressed over Christmas ornaments. If she asks for more of them this year, I will tell her she can have whatever of them she wants and buy new ones.

I bet her ornaments would make great targets at the range. What a shiny little puff they would make when hit by a 5.56mm round at 100 yards! What a hoot!

I had to buy all new ornaments last year. Wayzilla took all the nice stuff but I don't miss it. New is better for me.

I wonder if she will feel "Christmassy" this year? Last year DD20.928 said she put almost nothing out for Christmas.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/18/08 10:30 PM
SD,

Thanks for posting that Jennifer letter!!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/18/08 11:02 PM
I don't imagine she will ask. The MSA said something about making photos and movies available for copy. She hasn't asked about that, either.

Her life is sad and pathetic.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/20/08 04:09 AM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Her life is sad and pathetic.

It's a shame that she doesn't know it yet... sigh
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/24/08 02:27 AM
SD!! Tell us about life after D. Come back!!
Posted By: lunamare Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/24/08 06:09 PM
Quote
SD!! Tell us about life after D. Come back!!

Ditto for me!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/28/08 12:51 AM
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

I've been around, I just haven't had much to say. Which is usually a sign that I need to post something, so later I'll put together an update.
Posted By: IAmDrScott Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/29/08 10:43 PM
Hi, everyone.

I'm sdguy's big brother. We've all been lurking on this list since the beginning. We are so thankful for all of the counsel and encouragement offered by you wonderful long-time posters.

Which brings me to Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving season ended at my house today when we took down the "thankful chain". We make this long chain of construction paper links. On each link is the name of someone we're thankful for. The only rule is it has to be a real, living person. This year I took some pictures. If things work right, you can look at them via the link below. You'll probably recognize some of the names.

http://picasaweb.google.com/iamdrscott/ThankfulChain?authkey=_FkaSLHhwxw

We are praying for you. God bless you all.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/29/08 11:16 PM
How absolutely awesome!

cool
Wow, I'm honored. I certainly am thankful for the counsel I've gotten from Guy Smiley, and I'm forever linked to BC now. He's got the best jokes...well, he's got the mose crude jokes, but it's my kinda 13 year old boy humor smirk
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/01/08 03:10 AM
Thank you, bro of sdguy, for sharing those.

Wow. I am so touched.

I took a couple of minutes alone on Thursday and thought of everyone here and went back over how I was helped. Sometimes, it was as simple as drawing a smile from me that I didn't think was possible that day.

I will forever be grateful to everyone here that has stuck with me and have offered their own stories and experiences.

Thank you, Guy Smiley, for all you have done here. I count your presence in my life as a blessing.

Fox
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/01/08 01:25 PM
Wow.. just wow.. I'm completely humbled and overwhelmed at the same time.

Thank you, and your family so very much for thinking of me and the others here on MB. I hope you all had a wonderful and happy Thanksgiving.

I know that I have been, and will continue to be thankful for the connections we've made with eachother, and holding one another up through the toughest of circumstances.

SD.. you and the others here have been a shining light in my darkest hour. Thank you so much for being who you are.

Truly a reminder that we are in splendid company around here.

Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/01/08 02:44 PM
Hello Doc!

Thank you so much for posting the picture link. I have to say it brought tears to my eyes,,,,along with such an overwhelming feeling of honor & thankfulness.

I am sure I don't have to tell you what a wonderful brother you have in GuySmiley! We are truly the ones that are blessed to have had the priviledge & honor to know him. He is such a loving, generous man and I am oh so proud to count him among the many blessings I've received this last year - along with those from all of the wonderful folks on this site.

hug hug hug hug hug
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/01/08 04:17 PM
Thanks, DrScott, for posting the photos of the Thankful chain and giving others a glimpse into how valuable the support offered here can be. And thanks to my amigos for the kind words, as always.

I've been going through one of those hard-to-post periods. I don't really understand where those come from. Sometimes I wonder whether hanging around here impedes moving on. I think of LilSis, who suffered on here with the best of them but then rebuilt her life and got on with it. I haven't heard anything from her since the note about her WxH's plans to marry RT (and I assume she sent that note to me because she lost her login info here), but I'm sure she's doing great. We all move at our own pace, I guess.

None of these thoughts diminish how valuable this place has been and how much the support from people like PM, B, LG, Luna, CL, CW, Amazin, Cinders, Chris, LD, Marsh, Lexxy, BR (in addition to those whose names show) has meant to me. You guys have all been and continue to be blessings.

I dunno. It's still a roller coaster, but a much tamer one. I still have anger, but I don't get angry very often, and when I do, it doesn't last long. Some of it comes from looking around and realizing that being a 40-year old single dad was never part of my plan. Not that I had much of a plan, mind you, but this certainly wasn't part of it. I don't want to have to date and chase and play guessing games and try to sell myself and face rejection. Says one part of me.

In the good moments, another part of me looks at the person the SCQ seems to be (and probably was all along) and sees the deficiencies and imagines how much better a relationship would be with someone who did a little more of this and a little more of that and marvels at how many people are really out there. Lots of possibilities. Hey, B, where is that barrel full of fish you've been talking about?

My IC seems to be pushing me in this direction--that I should get back Out There. I've taken some baby steps and have been sizing up options for getting more serious about it. We'll see.

My parents were just here for ten days, which flew by. It was a good visit, as always, and the kids loved it. The SCQ graciously swapped days with us so that the kids could be here for Thanksgiving (she was, predictably, going to POSOM's mother's house). I was determined to cook and do the traditional meal if the kids were here and am pleased with how well it turned out. I did the majority of the work, but it was certainly easier with my mom here. The kids had a good time and cried when their grandparents had to go home.

The kids are okay. They tell me more about their life on the other side, and I am able to listen without being triggered. I only go as far as saying "how do you feel about that?" without adding any of my own sentiments on how I think they should feel about that. And I'm not sure what I should want them to feel, anyway. If they're stuck with POSOM, maybe it's better that they don't know what a vile sack of [censored] he is. He is What Is for them. And me.

I'll try to get caught up on other threads later. Gotta get to work. I have to write my annual performance self-evaluation, which is a load of crap because they already know perfectly well what rating they are going to give me. In these economic times, however, and considering how much leeway the company has given me (performance-wise) over the past two years, I know I need to put in effort on the evaluation. Sigh. In the past few days I have had both the It's time for opening night of the high school musical but I haven't learned all my lines dream *and* the The semester's almost over but I never did drop that math class and haven't been all year dream. Those are more like once-a-year things for me. Hope it's the evaluation.


Originally Posted by Guy tryin to Smiley
In the past few days I have had both the It's time for opening night of the high school musical but I haven't learned all my lines dream *and* the The semester's almost over but I never did drop that math class and haven't been all year dream. Those are more like once-a-year things for me. Hope it's the evaluation.

Oh GAWD!!! I loathe those dreams. Those are STRESS induced dreams FO-SHO!!! I used to have the one about the Analytical Chem class that I forgot to drop and never went to, didn't have the books or syllabus and needed it to graduate faint

Then I woke up and realized it was just that I had 5 exams to study for, or that I was pregnant nearing the end of that journey or that my husband had run off with another woman :RollieEyes:

I feel your pain...
Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/01/08 05:38 PM
SD, that was very cool of you to do that! We all know how much we mean to each other, but it's still nice to see it expressed in a special way like that.

You are well on your way to a better life too. Figure out exactly what you want in a woman and don't settle for less.

That goes for everybody.

NO SETTLING!!

Dating has had it's ups and downs. I can't say they've been lined up down the block, but thinking about the past year, I'd say I've had a fair share of options. Most had nothing I was looking for, a few have, but weren't in the same place as me. So I can't say it's been a blast, but every option has given me better clarity on where I want to go and with what kind of person. So there's plenty of fun and plenty of not so fun all mixed together when it comes to dating.

Regardless, you've got to move foward if you want to get to where you want to be.

Best of luck SD



Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/01/08 06:36 PM
Quote
SD, that was very cool of you to do that!
Those pictures were from my brother's house, BC. They (like my parents and some friends) follow my thread without posting. I didn't have anything to do with it other than attracting such cool people to my thread. That *they* recognize it says something about how important you guys are and also says something about how cool *they* are, too.

Quote
NO SETTLING!!
Thanks for the dating thoughts. I don't think I liked dating much as a kid, either, so I didn't do much of it. Looking back, I don't think I went through much of a thought process with the SCQ--it just felt right and was easy and comfortable and so I didn't question it much. I could say that it was a mistake, but, like I've said before, I wouldn't undo my kids for anything.

It's weird. For all of that, I could still see us happy together. I was talking with friends the other day and heard myself use the words "lose a loved one to addiction," which is how I feel about the SCQ most of the time. I don't actively want her back or waste any life force hoping for it, but the door hasn't slammed shut yet. Once I find the barrel, maybe.

Quote
I used to have the one about the Analytical Chem class that I forgot to drop and never went to, didn't have the books or syllabus and needed it to graduate
Yeah, I knew someone out there would relate. Pretty much the same dream. Isn't that weird? Dreams, the brain, people and their motivations. . . fascinating stuff.
Posted By: lunamare Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/01/08 07:56 PM
Hi SD,

Quote
It's weird. For all of that, I could still see us happy together. I was talking with friends the other day and heard myself use the words "lose a loved one to addiction," which is how I feel about the SCQ most of the time. I don't actively want her back or waste any life force hoping for it, but the door hasn't slammed shut yet. Once I find the barrel, maybe.

I'd say...not so weird, SD.

What IS important, I think, is...NOT SETTLING... be it with a FWS or a new R!

...and you are in our hearts, SD, whether you decide to continue to post...or take a break (...and when you do, maybe a little tinsy winsy update once in a while?!? pray)





Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/01/08 11:25 PM
corporate performance self-evaluation . . . draining . . . life . . . force . . . .
Posted By: chrisner Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/01/08 11:27 PM
Get a bunch of those little gold, red, blue and green stars and paste them all over it and turn it in.
Originally Posted by chrisner
Get a bunch of those little gold, red, blue and green stars and paste them all over it and turn it in.

I knew there was a certain UMPH missing from my resume. I'm sure to get that job of my dreams now. Thanks, Chrisner!!!
Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 03:20 PM
Hey SL and SD

Here's another one for you.

We got a resume in this morning

and no lie

under qualifications, he put

Competent Person Certified

rotflmao
Posted By: howtoheal Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 03:44 PM
I'm a recruiter, and if I got a resume with foil stars all over it I'd totally hire the person!!!

Especially if they were certified as competent!!!! rotflmao

SDGuy, as a FWW, I think your XWW is crazy and your children are lucky and blessed to have you as their dad.

And you have a great family too.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 07:24 PM
Thanks, HTH, for the kind words.

I really like the foil stars idea, but everything is electronic now. Maybe I could have figured out how to get some of these cool emoticons into my self-evaluation. Wow, the mind boggles at the possibilities.

--did useful research in the lab to help people solve problems smile

--participated in project review meetings sleep

--led a limited-duration team (LDT) to investigate speeding up timelines for project transfer between sites sigh

--sponsored a strategic alliance with little or no real value to the company other than to show what a clever scientist/promoter I am puke

Yeah, maybe it's better that I don't use emoticons.

But the competent person certified I like. I would be tempted to take it one further. In a list of qualifications on a resume, I would want to slip in something like "not a moron." I would love to see that one someone's resume, but I don't suppose I ever will.
Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 08:13 PM
a couple more things

don't forget to mention that you haven't had any trouble with your TPS reports

and you ware 27 pieces of flare every day, 12 more than recommended

Posted By: Jamesus Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by BetrayedCajun
1 more thing

don't forget to mention that you haven't had any trouble with your TPS reports

Have you seen my stapler?
Oh, you see, that's where I'm going wrong. I'm tearing down office cubicles, avoiding Lumberg, playing tetris and gutting fish at my desk. I should probably also consider expressing myself better by wearing more than the minimum amount of flare. SHEESH! Work is hard.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 08:56 PM
It's the network printers that really give me trouble.
Posted By: cinderella Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by BetrayedCajun
a couple more things

don't forget to mention that you haven't had any trouble with your TPS reports

and you ware 27 pieces of flare every day, 12 more than recommended

dontknow Toilet Paper Sanitization? dontknow
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 09:06 PM
Another in-joke, Cinders

TPS Reports
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 09:39 PM
Quote
In a list of qualifications on a resume, I would want to slip in something like "not a [censored]." I would love to see that one someone's resume, but I don't suppose I ever will.

Apparently you'll never see it on MB either! crazy
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 09:41 PM
That's too funny. I quoted sdguy's post so I could see what word he put in there. I'm surprised that it was censored.

Pretty soon, we'll have standard sentences to choose from to make a post.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 09:51 PM
I can't say m-o-r-o-n? Sheesh.

What about stupid? For a while, that was the s-word around our house, but now the kids are old enough to know how and when it can be used.

This censorship is really construction-materialing with my ability to express myself.

How about imbecile? Can I say that? Or [censored]? nincompoop? [censored]? drummer? [censored]? vice-president?

Wow. . . b-u-t-t-h-e-a-d is censored. That was one of my favorite parts of The Wonder Years.
Posted By: cinderella Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 09:56 PM
Oh, no! I bet it won't be long before idiot and stupid are censored!
Posted By: chrisner Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 09:57 PM
Skanky Ho.


Whew! It still works! I can still express my admiration for Wayzilla.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 10:30 PM
Hmm. I wonder if
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 10:31 PM
Ha!

Chalk one up for subversives!
Posted By: chrisner Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 10:38 PM
Maybe they could just make a template of the wayward script for newbies where you just strike through the parts that don't apply.


Hi. I am the BW BH who just recently had my D-Day last week month Thanksgiving Christmas Valentines Day Hanukkah Easter St Patrick’s Day.

For a little background we have been married for 7 14 21 years and have 1 2 3 4 5 6 wonderful children.

The marriage has been great good rocky stale lacked passion near sexless for the past couple years but I never could have believed he she could commit adultery.

One night after working late he she came home and said “I love you but I am not in love with you” “I have never been in love with you” "We never should have gotten married” “I need space” “You’re never there for me” “We have grown apart” “You’re too controlling” “We got married too young”

I got suspicious that night and checked his her cell phone. On it I found 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1,000 text messages and 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1,000 calls all to the same number. When I called the number, the OM OW answered and I recognized him her as my best friend our next door neighbor his her coworker

When I confronted him her in the morning with this he she replied, “I can’t believe you invaded my privacy” “You’re crazy, he she is just a friend!” "I can’t ever trust you again”

Posted By: Pepperband Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 10:41 PM
rotflmao

notable post - yar - smirk
That is PRICELESS. It would save the vets having to tell the newbies to write in paragraph form and be more concise in their posts because the people around here have limited time to read those LOOOOOONG posts.

Good job, Chrisner! Now, where did I put all those colored foil stars?
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 11:16 PM
Chrisner,

How about a multiple choice post? That would be easier for my BS brain. Yep, just circle the correct answer.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 11:27 PM
Quote
It would save the vets having to tell the newbies to write in paragraph form and be more concise in their posts because the people around here have limited time to read those LOOOOOONG posts.

And suggested screen names as I saw a vet ask someone to change their screen name today because there were too many that were similar.

:RollieEyes:

Quote
Good job, Chrisner! Now, where did I put all those colored foil stars?

Are they on your Potty Train?


Fox
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/02/08 11:51 PM
Post of the year Chris!

And you just got it in too!
Posted By: lunamare Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/03/08 07:35 PM
Quote
How about a multiple choice post?

...and as more than one answer may apply, with the possibility of choosing more than one correct answer crazy
Posted By: believer Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/03/08 08:10 PM
Love that post Chrisner. It is perfect.

But then you need to continue further with the reasons why the affair can't be exposed
Posted By: cinderella Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/03/08 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by silentlucidity
That is PRICELESS. It would save the vets having to tell the newbies to write in paragraph form and be more concise in their posts because the people around here have limited time to read those LOOOOOONG posts.

Good job, Chrisner! Now, where did I put all those colored foil stars?


*****

*****

*****

*****
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/05/08 11:44 PM
Brief update.

I just had the kids for two days and now get them back tomorrow for Saturday and Sunday. Ordinarily it would have been Sunday that I got them back, but tomorrow is my birthday and so the schedule calls for me to have them. It means I have tonight and tomorrow morning to myself.

Tomorrow afternoon, DD5 has a birthday party to go to, and then on Sunday I've been trying to set up something to celebrate DS9's birthday, which was the day before Thanksgiving. We celebrated with family on the day but usually try to schedule something with friends later (when they aren't traveling). He wants to do LaserTag at the local UltraZone, so I've worked it out to take him and a few kids there on Sunday.

My great neighbors, noting that it's my birthday and fearing that I wouldn't be doing anything to celebrate, asked about having a guys' poker night. I told them it was nice that they thought about me, but that I had the kids, and that it wasn't really that important to me to do a celebration. I mentioned the LaserTag thing to them, and they volunteered to keep DD5, who isn't old enough to participate.

This meant that I would be free to play LaserTag, too, instead of just keep an eye on DD5. Which led me to realize that I could celebrate *my* birthday by taking a group of nine-year olds to play LaserTag, and then I realized that that sounds like a lot of fun to me and then I realized that this is how I *want* to celebrate my birthday, and now I'm excited about it. And this, I think, says volumes about how good I've been feeling over the past week or so.

Anyway. Hope everyone has a great weekend.
Posted By: lunamare Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/06/08 12:05 AM
Quote
and now I'm excited about it. And this, I think, says volumes about how good I've been feeling over the past week or so.

cool
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/06/08 01:11 AM
cool cool
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/11/08 02:19 PM
This was all the way back on page 3 to get dug out.

You wouldn't be hidin a barrel somewhere would ya?

Get stuck and pull somethin at yoga, while lookin at someone pick up their gym bag?

Abducted by autoclave attendants?

Originally Posted by James
Abducted by autoclave attendants?

Ah, you got me!!! How did you figure it out. Now, I want 50 million dollars in unmarked bills dropped on my doorstep via whatever courier you would prefer to use, FedEx and UPS are good, and I'll release the happy participant, ahem, I mean, er, kidnap victim, riiiight, that's what I mean, kidnap victim...
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/11/08 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by silentlucidity
Originally Posted by James
Abducted by autoclave attendants?

Ah, you got me!!! How did you figure it out. Now, I want 50 million dollars in unmarked bills dropped on my doorstep via whatever courier you would prefer to use, FedEx and UPS are good, and I'll release the happy participant, ahem, I mean, er, kidnap victim, riiiight, that's what I mean, kidnap victim...


Hmm... I can think of worse fates than bein kidnapped and bound by the Silent one.. think
Originally Posted by James, oh wise one
Hmm... I can think of worse fates than bein kidnapped and bound by the Silent one..

You know, I'd have to agree with this statment grin
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/11/08 04:41 PM
If only
Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/11/08 04:42 PM
Silent..... But Deadly!! skeptical

Originally Posted by BC
Silent..... But Deadly!!

I was wondering when BC would finally come around to posting this. :RollieEyes:
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/11/08 05:01 PM
I'm sure he means like a ninja.
Riiiiiiiiight, suuuuuuure, Ninja...
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/16/08 02:43 AM
OK, so I heard through the threadvine that you had a date? Are you going to tell us about it?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/16/08 06:57 AM
Yep, went on my first date in close to two decades last week. After some prompting by my IC, I had gotten a little more serious about match.com, sending out a few emails. Guys still have to do the pursuing, which is a bit of a drag, but all of a sudden I wound up with two phone numbers.

My response was to panic, of course. I tried to let them know via email that I'm pretty rusty at this but wound up calling anyway. Left messages, and one of them responded via email sorry I missed the call and how about if we just meet for a drink, and what would be some good times. More panic (remember to breathe), then I told her some times--I think that was last Monday morning. What worked out was Tuesday. Serious panic.

But I had a great time. It was just supposed to be a drink, so that if it is Not Working, you can bolt quickly, but we talked for about two and a half hours. Great place, great company. We each had a good time. I joked about my nervousness, but it really went fine. She listened to my Story (she asked, and I tried not to club her with it). She said thoughtfully "hmm, you need to go on another date before we can go out again." I gathered that she had dated another infidelity-survivor post-divorce, got close, and then got hurt when he "freaked out because he didn't know what he wanted." She seemed to understand my situation as well or better than me ("You have to figure out who you are again and what you want. Rediscover yourself.")

She was totally cool with my inexperience and answered all my dating ettiquette questions graciously (I've gotten plenty of mileage over the years by playing stupid--or, rather, admitting my ignorance). Despite the rust, I'm pretty sure that I was a good date. I would like to see her again, and I'm pretty sure she would like to see me again. But I'm being cool about it, and I feel cool about it. I want to see some other people.

Along those lines, I connected by phone with the other woman who responded. I'm trying to set something up for Wednesday. We'll see how it goes.

It was really fun to be out with and meet another person. Exhiliarating. I walked away from it thinking "I want to do that again." For the Experts in the crowd, warnings, cautions, and advice are gratefully accepted. Help me spot the landmines.

I've been feeling really good for the past month or so. There's still some anger around, but it seems so much less urgent now. What little communication there has been with the SCQ is just business and hasn't bother me at all. I've even been a little chattier with her lately.

She's still a moron, of course. She seems to have the kids splitting time between her rented condo (close to me and where the kids go to school) and POSOM's house, which is maybe 20 miles away from here through bad traffic. Weekends, they all stay at his house, so, as if living in two different places weren't bad enough, she has them living in three. DS9 told me he has a room now at POSOM's house. The kids don't seem to know anything about long-term plans, not that I would have expected the SCQ to tell them anything. LilSis told me recently (I emailed her for dating advice) that her WxH married RT in a private ceremony without the kids. I hope my kids are that lucky. DS9 said he told the SCQ he doesn't want to attend that marriage.

It's not what I chose, but I'm trying to make the best of it.

Thanks for asking.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/16/08 03:34 PM
Wwell, it's nice to see you at this point. It gives the rest of us hope that it can come someday.

I'm glad that you had a good time, and glad that your date was so smart. She knows that it takes time after a D to truly get to the point of being totally open to another relationship. My only words of caution are take it slow. There's no rush. And just remember that if you find yourself "in love," please look outside of that bubble at reality and make sure the relationship can survive on the outside. Remember, you can not change a person.

I hope Lilsis is OK with the M of the APs. Whether we like to admit it or not, there are those that last. I know that she will end up the winner somehow....

My friend across the street recommends eHarmony.
Posted By: chrisner Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/16/08 04:40 PM

Quote
I've even been a little chattier with her lately.


Tourette's syndrome?
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/16/08 04:48 PM
Chris:

SDGuy said:

Quote
I've even been a little chattier with her lately.

And you said:
Quote
Tourette's syndrome?

I would think it's something simpler:

INDIFFERENCE

LG
Posted By: karmasrose Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/16/08 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by chrisner
Maybe they could just make a template of the wayward script for newbies where you just strike through the parts that don't apply.


Hi. I am the BW BH who just recently had my D-Day last week month Thanksgiving Christmas Valentines Day Hanukkah Easter St Patrick’s Day.

For a little background we have been married for 7 14 21 years and have 1 2 3 4 5 6 wonderful children.

The marriage has been great good rocky stale lacked passion near sexless for the past couple years but I never could have believed he she could commit adultery.

One night after working late he she came home and said “I love you but I am not in love with you” “I have never been in love with you” "We never should have gotten married” “I need space” “You’re never there for me” “We have grown apart” “You’re too controlling” “We got married too young”

I got suspicious that night and checked his her cell phone. On it I found 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1,000 text messages and 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1,000 calls all to the same number. When I called the number, the OM OW answered and I recognized him her as my best friend our next door neighbor his her coworker

When I confronted him her in the morning with this he she replied, “I can’t believe you invaded my privacy” “You’re crazy, he she is just a friend!” "I can’t ever trust you again”

Ooh, ooh, let me help!

I can't expose because my wife would hate me forever I'd have broken her trust I love my wife so much.

Exposing would only make her leave make her mad make her take the kids make her unhappy.
Posted By: lunamare Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/16/08 05:24 PM
Quote
But I'm being cool about it, and I feel cool about it.
cool
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/16/08 05:38 PM
Quote
INDIFFERENCE
Yup. I no longer *want* reconciliation the way I used to. I don't know what I would do if she wanted to come back; it's certainly not going to happen any time soon, so there's not much of a point to wondering about it.

My date asked me if I missed her. I said I missed This. . . having Someone but that I didn't miss her. I said if I work at it I can summon memories that are good, but that's about it. It's been a long time.

I haven't even felt the anger lately. I'm letting the emotion manifest itself as pity, and it's not even the kind that I want to tell her about. I used to think that before I could do any kind of friendly co-parenting with her, there were some things I needed to tell her, but now I'm losing my interest in saying those things. I've let go of a lot of it.

Indifference.

Thanks for the tip, CL. My understanding is that eHarmony is more for people who want to get married, and that's certainly not where I am. I think my response has been healthy so far, but I'm going to keep an eye on it.
Indifference.

Yup. That's where I have been for some time now. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm glad to be there. Strange to say that, but it's true.

I think the only thing I mourn, if you can even call it that, is the loss of companionship. I mourn that guarantee that someone was going to be around to hang out with. Funny thing I found out, is that even when you are married, there are no guarantees. Phooey!

Sure, the financial stress is getting to me, but I know there is an end to that in sight, so it's significance in the big picture is fairly small.

Heck, there is an end in sight to the loss of companionship . No worries!

Oh, I also mourn the loss of family for my son. That's TWO major things. In the end, he's suffered the most loss, IMO.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/16/08 09:11 PM
Quote
I mourn that guarantee that someone was going to be around to hang out with.
Yeah, I'm sure I took this one for granted--this is the one I expressed (missing there being Somebody, if not so much the SCQ). I'm beginning, however, to value the guarantee that I will get some time to myself (i.e., non-Kid Days).

Quote
Oh, I also mourn the loss of family for my son.
Right on, SL. I meant to mention this one, too. In addition to pity for the SCQ, I feel sorrow for the kids, because they deserve better, and it really didn't have to be this way. But I know that I did everything I could to save the marriage. I can look myself in the mirror.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/16/08 09:17 PM
Quote
But I know that I did everything I could to save the marriage. I can look myself in the mirror.

Such a simple statement - yet so incredibly meaningful.

Fox
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/16/08 09:41 PM
Both you and SL did more than most, so you have no reason to feel guilty.

When I get lonely, I think, well, what would I be doing if WH were here? The truth is that I would be watching him sleep on the couch in front of the TV drowning it out with his snoring. Really, that's most of what I remember when I think about our M. For years, that's basically what he did. So what's to miss?



Posted By: lunamare Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/17/08 02:04 PM
Quote
Oh, I also mourn the loss of family for my son.

This is the one I most have difficulty with...still! sigh

...because I know the boys deserve...so much more...and don't have much say in the deal cry

...it would be easier for me if I only had to deal with MY losses..
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/17/08 02:28 PM
Hey SD!

I'd have to say that I'm in the camp with mourning the loss for my kids, too. Just last night I was 'stressing' about holiday stuff because I'm just not going to have the time I want/need with the kids to do the things we like/want to do. All because of the 'schedule'. Not right. Not fair. Not their choice.

But, once I got thru the initial 'stress', I decided it can be handled. No, they won't get to wrap everyone's gifts with me because I did not get my shopping done before they leave to go with Drac tomorrow. BUT, we CAN still make cookies AFTER Christmas. We CAN still go see the special light display that they love AFTER Christmas. The point is that we do what we enjoy together WHENEVER we can. I felt bettter,,,,,,,,,and I am, too, getting to the point of Indifference wit Drac. I'll update about that on my thread.

What I really wanted to stop in and say is that I am so happy to hear of your initial venture out into the dating world! Congratulations!! Sounds like you have plenty of things 'going on' to keep you busy! Mostly, I'm happy your first date out went so well. It's harder than I ever imagined it would be, but once the first date is done, it's easier to breathe!

Quote
Despite the rust, I'm pretty sure that I was a good date.

I have no doubt you are most definately a good date! Rust has nothing to do with it,,,,what matters is that you are a wonderful man with an amazing personality, great humor, and a giving soul. What woman wouldn't be pleased after spending an evening with you?

Oh,,,maybe you could ask BC what to do about that rust thing. I'm sure he's been treated for it at one time or another! blush

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/17/08 07:21 PM
Thanks, Bugs. It was good to read your update and that you're doing well.

I was just doing a little communicating with the SCQ--arranging a split-squad session on the 22nd and 23rd so that I can take DS9 to the Poinsettia (sp?) Bowl on the 23rd (DD5 is Not Interested). And the SCQ said sure, that would work, and that she would bring DD5 home on the 24th, and it got me thinking.

The kids and I don't have anything in particular planned, and I have them through the 29th. I am toying with the idea of inviting the SCQ over to visit the kids on either Christmas or Christmas Eve. Maybe it's just asking for trouble, but I've been feeling really good lately.

I don't know. I'll think about it.
Um, WHAT??? dontknow

I think you should just find something for you and the kids to do. That is, unless you really do wanna have that relationship thing where you and the ex 'hang out' even though you're divorced. I've heard of couples who divorce, even under the worst of circumstances (which I believe infidelity applies), and end up being friends. Seems weird to me though. Probably a bit confusing for the kids, too...

In other words...WHAT??? faint



Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/17/08 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by MissLucidity
Um, WHAT???

Ditto that.

faint


Do not welcome the snake into your den, Guy Smiley, venom will be spewed at some point and you do not yet have the complete defenses to deflect it.

Is she still with POSOM? If so, you have your answer.

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/17/08 08:27 PM
To what end would you be doing this?

Quote
Probably a bit confusing for the kids, too...

I agree. Would it be creating false hope to the kids of a future reconciliation?


Quote
Maybe it's just asking for trouble

Quote
Maybe it's just asking for trouble

Quote
Maybe it's just asking for trouble

Quote
Maybe it's just asking for trouble

I think it would be asking for trouble.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/17/08 08:34 PM
MAYBE IT IS JUST ASKING FOR TROUBLE.


or

IT [size:20pt]IS JUST ASKING FOR TROUBLE. [/size]
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/17/08 10:13 PM
Okay, okay. That's what I thought you guys would say. Maybe I was counting on you guys saying that.

It doesn't feel like a big deal to me right now, and it seems like the kids should have an opportunity to see their mother on Christmas. But I see that for me to give them that would be shielding the SCQ from her actions. She hasn't had to spend Christmas Eve and Christmas without her children yet. I should let her experience that.

I think I'm just in a really healthy groove right now and probably shouldn't mess with it.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/17/08 10:36 PM
Quote
I think I'm just in a really healthy groove right now and probably shouldn't mess with it.

Good plan, man.

hurray

Fox
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/18/08 01:37 AM
Well, I'm glad you got 2x4'd before I got here because I was coming in with a freaking tree stump to whack your a$$ because that's what you are thinking with. Don't tell me that we quit using our brains after a D? dontknow

The big wake up for SCQ will be one day when her kids are spending Xmas with your new significant other. She hasn't had that experience yet.

Posted By: Mark1952 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/18/08 01:48 AM
Too late to the party with too little...

What the rest of 'em said...

Ditto!

:MerryChristmas:

Mark
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/18/08 12:48 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
It doesn't feel like a big deal to me right now, and it seems like the kids should have an opportunity to see their mother on Christmas.

Someone very smart once said something about what SHOULD be..

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I think I'm just in a really healthy groove right now and probably shouldn't mess with it.

Ahh.. back to what IS..

Glad you're finding some peace, and good luck with the dating world my friend... There may be another amigo joining you in that venture here soon.

whistle
Posted By: cinderella Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/18/08 02:16 PM
Sharing a pearl of wisdom I once heard:





Don't SHOULD on yourself.

Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/18/08 03:28 PM
Huh..... can you believe it? Everyone agrees. grin

It's okay, sdguy, we'll forgive you that little brain fart.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/18/08 07:32 PM
Thanks for all of the opinions. Like I said, they were not unexpected, and I was really just kind of thinking out loud, as it were.

I don't think what I was mulling over is as nutty as it sounds. I believe that friendly co-parenting, the kind that could result from non-infidelity-based divorce, is better for children. I think that there is plenty of research to back that up. I have always felt this way--that Plan B (and the kids seeing their parents not speaking to one another) is not the best thing for their development. Obviously, staying together would be best, but failing that my justification for Plan B was that it provided the best opportunity for reconciliation (which would lead back to the best situation for the kids).

The other reason to keep it up is to protect myself, and certainly the anger and hurt and outrage made it easier to keep that barrier up, but I'm just not feeling that right now. It's probably temporary, though, and that's the thing I shouldn't mess with.

I wasn't thinking "Gee, the kids and I don't have anything else to do, so I'll invite the SCQ to come and celebrate Christmas with us" but rather "We're not going to be so busy that if the SCQ wanted to drop by on Christmas Day to hug the kids and spend a little time with them, it wouldn't be okay."

Maybe it's an instinct borne from the generosity of the season, or maybe it's indifference or wanting what's best for the kids or having Let it Go or whatever. Or maybe it's just me. I have always known I would be able to forgive.

So, I don't think the concept is crazy. I do think that it's too soon. I don't want to mess with my streak of great mood. And I don't think that I should spare her from the consequences of her decisions, but that doesn't come from the kind of vengeful thinking that would have driven it six months ago.

I certainly understand everyone's reactions, though, and I appreciate the concern.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/18/08 07:55 PM
I understand where you are coming from and I do see your point. I guess most of us here who don't know her see her as a selfish witch, and we don't want to see you get hurt. If you can do it without hurting yourself, I guess go for it. I think when the BS finally gets to the point of not wanting the WS back anymore, it really doesn't matter. Why keep hurting the kids? Man, it's just hard to get over the fact that she hurt you and the kids so badly, and wasn't thinking of the three of you at any point. Part of me says why make it so easy for her....

I still think it's just a little too soon though......

Maybe next year, Huh?
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/18/08 07:56 PM
Yanno Smiley.. you make a pretty convincing case.

Mostly because I've had this very same argument with myself time and time again.. and I know that evidence mounts on both sides depending on what stand you're taking and which direction you're looking at it from.

Here's the simple thing though.. and you can take this or leave it, but at least roll it over a few times in your head and see what you come up with..

Yeah.. it -still- shouldn't be this way.

Yeah.. the two of you should be able to get along 'for the sake of the children'

Yeah.. the past is in the past and nothing -you- can do can change that.

But what do you hope to accomplish here?

If, as you say.. your thought process is that you would be OK if SCQ showed up for Christmas because she wanted to spend time with the kids.. why not leave it at that?

IF she makes the effort and WANTS to be with her kids on Christmas, then by all means.. IF you are comfortable with her being there.. and the kids want her there with you.. then there's nothing wrong with that.

But I see rolling out the red carpet and making the invitation to be more of something that -you- haven't totally let go of yet.. and you can argue that point I'm sure.. if the peace you've received post D is anything like what I feel just a week later.. but IMO.. in MY situation.. If it's something -she- wants.. she'll ask for it, and you can make the decision that it's ok IF she does.. but don't let yourself get caught up in the WHAT IF game anymore.. it's no longer up to you to engineer ways to get her into your home and do her part to be a good mother. It's up to her.

It's not up to you to save her.. or show her the way out anymore Guy.. she knows.. she's chosen her path. Time for guys like you and I to embrace ours.


ETA: One last thing to consider.. and I'm really not trying to hammer the point home here.. just trying to look out for a guy I consider a good friend who has been through a lot of the same muck I've waded through..

Go back and read Bugsmom's thread from a few scant months ago.. shortly after the D is final.. starts to have regular interaction with Drac.. starts to consciously and unconsciously yearn for more of a 'fix' of him.. and in the end.. what was there but more frustration?

If she hasn't changed at all.. you're still in for a hurting if you get too close to her I'm afraid.. and I could be wrong.. and I hope I am if that's what you decide to do.. We've just all seen how easy it is to get sucked back into the drama..

Just some things to consider.
Posted By: lunamare Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/18/08 08:19 PM
SD,

In case you are counting heads...

SCQ over for Xmas?

YES..... crazy

NO......CHECK!


If you and SCQ are to develop a 'friendship', I would let it develop over a long period of time. Let it evolve on it's own, without pushing any agenda to safeguard your children from the consequences of divorce. You can CUSHION the blow, but you can never give them what they really want--for this to never have happened in the first place. They won't get back their innocence as they once had, even if you guys are 'buds'.







Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/18/08 09:12 PM
Just to be clear, I'm not going to invite her.

I'm going to note, like James suggested, that I think I could do it and say, Hmm, I think that's good. It's just too soon for anything else.

It really wasn't about keeping anything alive or getting a fix of her or anything like that. Indifference is at work. I can see now, however, (and could see when I was musing about it) that it would likely trigger a whole bunch of sadness for me.

There's really nothing to worry about--there is a zero percent chance that she will ask to come over.

As always, I appreciate everyone's opinions and the fact that you guys are concerned for me.

Got another date set up for Saturday. . . .
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/18/08 09:30 PM
naughty

I was going to say: :twobyfour:

but James said it much better.

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It really wasn't about keeping anything alive or getting a fix of her or anything like that. Indifference is at work.

Don't kid yourself, Guy Smiley. It's not as easy as this statement makes it sound.

Remember who you are talking to......

We can smell BS bs a million miles away. laugh

I can just about guarantee you that it is too soon and will cause you more anguish. Even if you could orchestrate it yourself so that she acts like a wonderful human being while she is there - even THAT will hurt you. You'll start to think again of what WAS and what COULD BE.

It's a nice thought from a generous heart but I don't think now is the time.

hug

Fox
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/18/08 10:33 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Got another date set up for Saturday. . . .

Now this is news we wanna hear about. grin


I got me one too.. next Saturday though.. maybe we found us a barrel? whistle
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/18/08 11:18 PM
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I can just about guarantee you that it is too soon and will cause you more anguish. Even if you could orchestrate it yourself so that she acts like a wonderful human being while she is there - even THAT will hurt you. You'll start to think again of what WAS and what COULD BE.

It's a nice thought from a generous heart but I don't think now is the time.
Well-summarized, Fox. I think you're right.
Yeah, along the lines of what Foxy said, it bugs me a bit that the Z is so nicey nice, joking, laughing and such when I see him. Yeah, sure, that's how he is all the time, whatever. It still bugs me that he was stone cold when he was here. Now that he's freed from the TRAP, he can be his old gregarious self.

It doesn't HURT that he's like this, but it sure drives home how horrible he was to me. It's a reminder of many things evil and sad. So, every Sunday during the football season, I'd go home shaking my head.

It's not that I wish that he Z were sullen when I'm around, because that would prolly bother me, too. Honestly, I don't think he could win, happy/sad, good/bad. Being around him is a reminder oooooooof......oh, yeah, HIM.

and that's AFTER indifference set in, LONG after.
Posted By: lunamare Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/19/08 06:08 PM
SD,

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I can just about guarantee you that it is too soon and will cause you more anguish. Even if you could orchestrate it yourself so that she acts like a wonderful human being while she is there - even THAT will hurt you. You'll start to think again of what WAS and what COULD BE.

I wouldn't reinvent the wheel... looks like Fox knows what she's talking about...

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Got another date set up for Saturday. . . .

...now this is more like it. wink
Posted By: Amazin Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/19/08 07:33 PM
I've been going to a Divorce Care class at my church. One of the things I remember seeing in one of the video's is that children of divorced parents always hope and fantasize about their parents getting back together. It went on to say that a parent should be carful not to encourage this hope if it will never happen. Seeing you and x wifey celebrating Christmas together may plant that seed.

If your xWW wants to see the kids on chritstmas by all means you can negotiate something with her. But I wouldn't celebrate the holiday with her. Celebrate the holiday with your kids and make some good memories for them.

Might I suggest that you try starting some kind of new tradition on christmas. Something that you didn't do when you were married. It could be something as simple as baking cookies on Christmas eve.

Posted By: lunamare Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/19/08 07:48 PM
t/j to Amazin,

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...children of divorced parents always hope and fantasize about their parents getting back together... a parent should be carful not to encourage this hope if it will never happen. Seeing you and x wifey celebrating Christmas together may plant that seed.... I suggest that you try starting some kind of new tradition on christmas. Something that you didn't do when you were married...something as simple

Thanks for the info, Amazin...this makes sense.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/20/08 05:25 PM
SD:

Silent said:

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It still bugs me that he was stone cold when he was here. Now that he's freed from the TRAP, he can be his old gregarious self.

Both you understand that you have been freed from the TRAP as well?

You can be happy around these horrible people as well.

They didn't set OUT to HURT you. But they did. Horribly. And your children. And they are OK with that.

You don't have to be.

But your free from the trap as well.

Much freer.

Happy Holidays!

LG
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/20/08 11:19 PM
SD,

Well, seems I am late to the discussion,,,,,,,,,,AGAIN! Although it's gone as I would expect on all sides.

I can totally understand what you, and everyone else has had to say. It really has been a good exchange.

I don't have a lot to add, but you know I just HAVE to add SOMETHING! laugh

You are one of the most generous & kind hearted men that I've ever known. Despite the incredible amount of pain the SCQ has caused you, you remain kind, loving, generous & giving. THAT can be a problem as you manuver through figuring out life post D. Not just with the SCQ, but in many areas.

Just a word of caution, my friend. Take care. I worry about you, ya know?!

I'll leave it at that for now.

I'm glad you have nixed the invite idea. It is a bad idea,,right now. Maybe someday,,,,,,,,,,,,,in a galaxy far, far, away! Just kidding. Maybe someday it will work for you to have that kind of R with her. Just not yet.

Hoping your date tonight goes well! You know we are all dying to hear the details, so check back soon!!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/21/08 08:30 PM
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Both you understand that you have been freed from the TRAP as well?

You can be happy around these horrible people as well.
Thanks, LG. I think that this is what I am starting to figure out and anticipate. The others are right, though, in that it's too soon for me to be acting on this. It'll come in its own time.

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Just a word of caution, my friend. Take care. I worry about you, ya know?!
It's always great to get BugBombed and know that people are looking out for me. Occasionally I think about being a nice guy and where they finish (James talked about this at one point), but not very often.

For the date yesterday, we met and took a walk by the ocean. We had talked a couple of times on the phone but hadn't met in person, and we had a nice time. It was nice and clear, and the sun felt really good.

We talked about lots of different things. She's smart, quick-witted, and attractive, and she has a lot of the traits I see in (and like about) myself.

We were talking about dating on Match, and she commented on how it's kind of strange. That when you just meet someone in regular life and become interested in them but don't know anything about their situation (whether they're single, whether they're dating, etc). With Match, it's the other way around--you know the person is looking, but you don't know whether there will be any chemistry. I had a good enough time to try another date, but I can't say that I felt much in the way of chemistry. I dunno.

Now it's time for the Holidays. Split-squad tomorrow and Tuesday, and then I have the kids through the weekend. A little more shopping today. And football. And rest.

Hope everyone's weekend is going well.
Posted By: believer Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/21/08 10:15 PM
Oh, a DATE! How exciting!

I really like Match because you will get back into the swing of things without having to get too serious. I joined before I got married to my ex. I met some WONDERFUL guys and am still in contact with 2 of them. I probably went out with about 20 and had LOTS of fun.

It turned out I didn't marry any of them, but it was well worth the experience.

I'm laughing about the no chemistry thing. There was a guy named Brett here from Idaho, and his friend fixed him up with a chick after his unwanted divorce. He said the same thing, no chemistry. But then one day they were eating hot dogs and playing a game of pool, and she was talking about her grandfather, and he fell madly in love, just like that. And they got married.

However, a caveat, take your time, date lots of women (They say it is like selling a house, about 15 qualified buyers have to do a walk-thru before the house sells, same thing with dating).

Look at it as practice. Chances are excellent that you will find someone special withing 18 months, so enjoy playing the field.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/21/08 10:23 PM
Personally, I believe that friendship should come first. WH and I were good friends as teenagers before we fell madly in love and ended up getting M. Ok, I know the ending but we did last 35 years which is longer than many M I know. We were always best friends.
SD, I don't post to you very often because you get the most amazing advice from so many people.

I'm happy that you are looking outside the box and meeting someone, with possibly others. I have come to believe that G-d has your plan already worked out. Let him guide you in your walk with any new R and you won't go wrong.

Lord knows you will come here, post about it and everyone will keep you on your toes and aware, but we simply don't know what G-d has planned. Mimi always told me, HEAD UP, CHEST OUT, and I added SMILE ON AND HEART OPEN.

You are absolutely one of the nicest and incredible men I have ever met, well online at least. You will be given a partner in life if you want it and G-ds plan is that for you.

Enjoy the journey of new R's, enjoy the journey about learning what you want and like and above all else, with G-d in your heart, trust yourself to hear his message when he gives it.

hug
Posted By: Sadmo Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/22/08 07:20 AM
Hello SD!
i do not offer much advice, but I will now!

If you go on a date, I would advise that NO MATTER how many questions your date may ask about your D, that you not talk much about it... because they are just testing to see if you are over your M or not... if you talk too much about it... it is a RED FLAG for them. Even if they SEEM receptive.

And, on a different note smile .... I have always had my now exh over on Christmas Day to see the kids open gifts. Why? Because my kids love him, he is a good dad to them, and Christmas is about love. He watches them open gifts, he brings over gifts, my girls give them cookies that they made (with a little help from their mom flirt) and it is fine.

In fact, it is good for ALL of us. My kids see their dad, I see them happy, he is pleasant, I am pleasant, and it could not get any better than that! It IS Christmas for heaven's sake!

I am at the indifferent stage, and it makes for GREAT co-parenting. You seem to be there too. There is nothing wrong with her seeing the kids on Christmas. JMHO.

You seem well! That is good! smile
Posted By: lunamare Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/22/08 04:47 PM
SD,

I think Sadmo makes a great point.

She also says...

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I am at the indifferent stage, and it makes for GREAT co-parenting.

I guess the question, SD, is ....are you there yet?

Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/22/08 04:59 PM
What will happen when one of the parents remarries or has a significant other?

The children will/could blame one of the parents partners that the other parent is no longer coming over on holidays.

I think it causes too much confusion for the children. The "lets all play nice" tactic completely undermines the pain and anguish the BS went through.

I don't believe that anyone can ever be so indifferent after infidelity that this type of scenario would be healthy.

JMHO.

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I guess the question, SD, is ....are you there yet?

SCQ is still with WonderBoy.........

Fox

Posted By: lunamare Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/22/08 05:15 PM
Hi SD,

..got my answer on Bugs' thread...

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Quote
It broke my heart. I wanted to thank him for the picture, and at the same time, I wanted to stab him in the eye with a steak knife!
I know exactly what you mean, Bugs. It's one more reason for me to keep up the status quo.

...and I am realizing that although I appreciate and I am happy for Sadmo that she is able to do what she does and have WxS over for Xmas.... and I respect the fact that it's something you want to be able to do someday, SD...

...but for now, I am leaning towards Fox's line of thinking...

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The "lets all play nice" tactic completely undermines the pain and anguish the BS went through.

I don't believe that anyone can ever be so indifferent after infidelity that this type of scenario would be healthy.

...especially when the 'significant other' of WxS is the original OP! puke Ooops! Sorry for the mess on your tie, SD!
Couldn't help it...
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/22/08 05:27 PM
Thanks, luna.

Part of my line of thinking comes from the theory that sacrifice builds resentment.

I don't see any way that the BS could NOT be sacrificing when it comes to this type of thing. The BS continues to give and the Wayward continues to take.

That cycle must be broken. IMHO.

I am not completely convinced that it would truly benefit the children, either. For the MOMENT, maybe it would. But what about the longer lasting effects?

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/22/08 06:42 PM
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Part of my line of thinking comes from the theory that sacrifice builds resentment.
I don't think I would do it if it felt like sacrificing (not that I'm going to do it at all this year). Fox, I think that eventually we will get to a place where we just don't care so much (indifference). Where we have truly let go of all of the anger and hurt and maybe even forgiven them (whether they ask for it or not). I don't think any of us Bees are there yet, but Sadmo is, and LG chimed in to point out the possibilities.

I think it will come, but I'm not ready for it yet.

Sadmo, thanks for stopping by. Sometimes I toss out ideas that aren't fully baked knowing that it will generate some interesting discussion (which will hopefully be useful to someone or at least entertaining). This time I knew that my amigos would wail away at me, but I also thought "I wonder if Sadmo will have anything to say about this." So, again, thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts.

And thanks for the dating tip, too. I expect I blew that one (talking too much about the D) despite my intentions. It's a fine line--on one hand I feel that they deserve to know and that the story doesn't make me look bad, at the same time I understand the risk of talking about it.

Thanks, B, for the thoughts about Match. Obviously, I'm still trying to figure it out, but the encouragement is appreciated. So I'm thinking that you can't assess chemistry on the first date--the first date is to find out whether the person looks anything like their pictures or is a total psycho or smells funny or stuff like that. With this last date, we had similar points of view on lots of different things (*You* feel that way about X?; that's how *I* feel about it), so I think it's positive.

Thanks Queenie and Luna and everyone else that stopped by. My sympathies to those of you affected by the big cold weather system. I'm sure it's not much consolation, but today here it's "lousy," gray and drizzly and a high in the low 50s--the kind of weather that will have the natives dropping like flies if it continues for more than two days.
Posted By: lunamare Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/22/08 06:55 PM
Hi SD,

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I don't think I would do it if it felt like sacrificing (not that I'm going to do it at all this year). Fox, I think that eventually we will get to a place where we just don't care so much (indifference). Where we have truly let go of all of the anger and hurt and maybe even forgiven them (whether they ask for it or not). I don't think any of us Bees are there yet, but Sadmo is, and LG chimed in to point out the possibilities.

I think it will come, but I'm not ready for it yet.

Just for discussion purposes then, SD... you would like this to happen one day because.....?

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/22/08 07:46 PM
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you would like this to happen one day because.....?
Because I think it is better for my kids. As much as we may despise the words, I think friendly co-parenting is better for children's development (especially the little ones). Admittedly, I haven't read as much about this as I should, but I'm pretty sure that this is what the research says.

Yours are different, Luna. Your kids are old enough that things are different, but my kids are 5 and 9. My daughter doesn't understand any of this. I shudder to think what she's learning, but if she were to ask me one day why Mommy couldn't come over and visit on Christmas, and the real reason why is that her mother did something so monstrously bad that I can't stand to be in the same room with her . . . well, how does that help my daughter?

The SCQ is the only mother she will ever have. Does it really help a five-year old to know that her mother is capable of hurting someone she loved so badly? She already has fear of being alone that I think extends beyond what is normal. Better, I think, to teach the kids that that people make mistakes, that it is okay to make mistakes, and that there is such a thing as forgiveness.

This, like dating and everything else, is something that I'm feeling my way through, so maybe I'll change my mind tomorrow or next month, but that's the way I'm thinking about it right now.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/22/08 08:05 PM
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but I'm pretty sure that this is what the research says.

Any idea what Dr. H says?

I firmly believe it would be a sacrifice whether you admit it or not. Now, if WonderBoy was out of the picture and SCQ had made some sort of amends, I may think differently.

However, I am also aware that you tend to be softer in this area than I am.

I don't back down from a stand unless I have some pretty darn good evidence why I should.

I have yet to see the evidence.

It's all good, sdguy, this is your life, you get to make the choices whether we think differently or not.

Fox
Posted By: lunamare Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/22/08 08:58 PM
Hi SD,

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Because I think it is better for my kids.

...this still doesn't resolve the issue, SD, if in any way there still is an element of 'sacrificing', as Fox points out, that would 'filter through', and cancel out any of the benefits you mention.

...unless of course, as Sadmom points out, you were to reach a point of such 'indifference', which is not impossible, that it would NOT be sacrificing... (with no risk resentement long-term)

A new guideline I am trying out (when I remember!) is to test and see how far I can use the rules of POJA....not with a partner... but with myself... with decisions where I DO have a choice, or I intend to be the initiator.

Let me tell you, so far, a lot of ideas get 'canned' because I do not reach an 'enthusiastic' agreement from all the elements 'within' :RollieEyes:

...however, I have learned to never say 'never'... in some cases, with the passage of time (even a few days later), a new experience, different people, new elements.... the 'enthusiasm' sometimes can surface.... (but this could also take years...or... never!) sigh





Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/22/08 08:59 PM
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Any idea what Dr. H says?
Not specifically, no.

I asked Jennifer once when does it becomes appropriate to drop Plan B. I think I've mentioned this before, but her answer was that the Plan B can go on forever, and that the main reason for it is to protect your *next* relationship.

Your former spouse will always be a threat (just like the affair partner is) to a future relationship, so anything you do with the former spouse should be completely transparent to the new partner.

It would be interesting to get their opinion on the specific question "Once you're Done (or even close to it), is it better for the kids to do the friendly co-parent thing?"

There's a part of me that wants to hold out until POSOM is gone and the SCQ has had some kind of awakening, but like I've said, even that is less urgent as I continue to feel good. Plus, I don't see it happening.

Where I've gotten to on Everything is that POSOM is one of these predator type guys--a Bad Guy. He used up his wife and then found someone else to use. The SCQ has a caretaker personality and tends toward being weak and passive. It will take something huge for her to Figure It Out, and even if she ever breaks away from him, I don't see her having the strength to do any kind of introspection and ultimately take responsibility for anything or own anything herself. Maybe she will prove me wrong, but I'm not going to hold out for anything.

I could force the matter, I suppose, like LilSis did. Go and confront her and say "You know what you did is wrong, right?" and she would probably splutter and ultimately admit that it was wrong and maybe even say that she is sorry. I mean, I think she knows that, but what good would it do? Can she ever possibly say a big enough I'm sorry to cover what she did?

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I don't back down from a stand unless I have some pretty darn good evidence why I should.
Your kids are older, Foxy. Like Luna's. It's a different dynamic, I think.

And I'm not advocating anything for anyone else, just thinking out loud (as it were).

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However, I am also aware that you tend to be softer in this area than I am.
Yeah, I'm sure that there are some grudges I should be holding against people, but after a point it takes energy to keep that going, and I have better things to do with my energy. Forgiving and empathetic are traits that I like about myself, so I don't really mind if people think that I'm a pushover.

Or maybe it's just that I'm medicated. think
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/22/08 09:21 PM
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so I don't really mind if people think that I'm a pushover.

That is NOT what I said.

naughty


ETA:
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Your kids are older, Foxy.

Yes, they are older NOW. But they were once the same ages as yours - I haven't lost all brain cells just because I have to deal with teenagers, ya know. wink

I think I would have been WORSE if this had happened while my DDs were young. I would have made more decisions
FOR them. As it is, I allow them their own opinions, trusting that the foundation is set for the most part.

You are still setting the foundation.


Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The Continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/23/08 12:18 AM
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That is NOT what I said.
No, no, I know that. I was just kind of extending the thought on the risks of being too nice/forgiving/accomodating.
Posted By: silentlucidity The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/23/08 02:29 AM
Howdy Guy Smiley!

Looks like a lot of activity continues on the subject of pleasant co-parenting. Like I said before, I think you should just let your relationship with your exW unfold on it's own, over time. Don't go in with an agenda to make nicey nice so the kids don't suffer; you could actually cause more suffering when/if things change on either side.


IMO, the best thing you can do for them now is to continue to work a good schedule for visitation out so that they get as much as they can out of it. They will never get all they want again, since you are divorced. It's a cold, hard fact. You cannot make it right, ever again.

Let the rest happen as you go.

Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/23/08 03:22 AM
Hey SD,

Just here to offer support. Since I don't have little ones now, I can't imagine what I would do in that case. Maybe one day you will get to total indifference and it won't matter. You may even get a personalized license plate that reads "THKS POSOM."

Remember When Harry Met Sally? Sparks don't necessarily have to fly on the first date. Hang in there....
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/23/08 07:29 PM
Last night DD5 and I went caroling with my neighbors, and it was a blast! I had WAY more fun than I would have imagined. One of my neighbors is an old choir singer and missed it, so she wanted to do some of the more difficult songs. I found that I could still dredge up the bass part (or most of it, anyway) for Carol of the Bells from, like, 20+ years ago. I didn't realize how much I miss singing. It was ostensibly for the kids, but I could tell who was having more fun.

It fits with the theme of getting one's life back as we Come Out the Other Side of the ordeal (that I've been reading about on Amigo threads). Caroling with neighbors is something I wouldn't have done with the SCQ. In fact, the SCQ's leaving allowed me to get closer with my neighbors than I've ever been. I like most of them better than the SCQ, anyway.

Life is good.
Originally Posted by Guy Smiley
I like most of them better than the SCQ, anyway.

Life is good.

Yes, sir, indeed.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/23/08 08:44 PM
Oh My!!! Another one who found life after D. I hope I'm the next one to do so....
Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/24/08 01:03 AM
I know survival is possible! I know there are worse things than what the waywards have done to us! I know life can be much better. It doesn't always mean you possess more in terms of material things. But, you can have so much more peace and joy than living with someone who is not participating in the marriage.



PEACE ON EARTH!!
Originally Posted by cinderella
But, you can have so much more peace and joy than living with someone who is not participating in the marriage.



PEACE ON EARTH!!

Amen to that
Posted By: Sadmo Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/24/08 04:52 AM
SD, and everyone else smile .....

When I have the exh around the kids for functions like Christmas, it does not cause any resentment in me. I do not feel that I am sacrificing. I think that I would have been sacrificing to stay in a M with someone that did not love me...

But, the question was also brought up about IF the exws had a significant other, especially if it was the OP.... Well, my exh and his gf, along with her kids, have been at my house for my kids birthdays. And, it was fine. His gf is pleasant enough, and my family talked to her, she felt REALLY nervous (you could tell), but when they came in, I greeted them both warmly, and introduced her to everyone.

She was well-liked by my family, and it seemed to alleviate some of the concerns that my parents especially had about her.

Could I have done it if I had even a FLICKER of hope that one day we would get back together? Nope. I don't want to get back with him, I am happier, he is happier, the kids seem ok. They know that they are loved, loved so much, by everyone in their lives. I could not have thought this was possible two years ago.

And you know what? I do think that if I were to try to teach him a lesson, to show him what he lost, (such as not inviting him over on Christmas) it would affect the kids more than him. He is not going to learn any lesson that I would try to teach him. I would just come off as being mean. Because what would my reasons be for him not to come over? Ummm? I have NONE. Other than to be vindictive. And, as I have gotten older, and wiser, I have realized that there is not much joy in doing things JUST to hurt someone, JUST to show them. I only pull out that card if I HAVE to... and believe me, I know when I have to! wink

And SD, ONE more dating tip... when I am asked what happened in my M, I usually crack, "well you know the story- I became a horrible person, and I was unbearable to live with!" I then laugh and say that we just were not right for each other. And I leave it at that. I know that I can answer, when I have been asked, "were you ever unfaithful?" I can, with a clean conscious say NO, and then I will say that I do not have tolerance for that. Then THEY know.

I am going to finish up some baking, and some, sigh, laundry, and then, I am off to bed.... I hope that all you have have a wonderful Christmas, may you all be filled with LOVE!

:happyholidays:
Originally Posted by Sadmo
Because what would my reasons be for him not to come over? Ummm? I have NONE. Other than to be vindictive. And, as I have gotten older, and wiser, I have realized that there is not much joy in doing things JUST to hurt someone, JUST to show them. I only pull out that card if I HAVE to... and believe me, I know when I have to!


I think this is a good example of what I had eluded to earlier, Sadmo. That some folks can be happy co-parents. The hurt from the affair is gone for them, they are better off, and the DESIRE a friendly relationship with the ex.

However, I would like to point out that NOT inviting your ex over for the holidays is in no way vindictive, if you are doing it to protect yourself. It's not meant to hurt the ex. It's not done JUST to hurt someone else.

In Guy's case, it is quite early to be inviting SCQ over. Not even a month ago, he was still holding on in his Plan B. I think some more time SHOULD pass before he delves into a friendship with his ex.

In my case, it's the same. WAAAAAAAAAY too early to attempt this. I know from seeing my STBX at football games that I would prolly throw a SHOE at him or at least feel hurt with him around.

Maybe the future will hold different things for us, but for now, I'm not betting on it.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/24/08 03:37 PM
Sadmo,

Lucky for all of us that we each get to make our own decisions. What you feel is right for you and your family is not necessarily right for others. Sames goes for everyone.

Quote
But, the question was also brought up about IF the exws had a significant other, especially if it was the OP.... Well, my exh and his gf, along with her kids, have been at my house for my kids birthdays.

If your exh "gf" is the OP and you are welcoming her.......

You are sacrificing whether you believe it or not.

Come hell or high water, this would not happen in my house. And it has nothing to do with being vindictive.

Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/24/08 04:00 PM
WOW SD, so much going on with you! I agree on the Plan B forever BUT my sitch is a little different and it's actually healthier for me...

So glad to hear that you are enjoying your neighbors...

yes Chai, there is life after D...LOL

merry Christmas SD!
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/24/08 04:09 PM
I was thinking about you last night, Guy Smiley, and realized I called POSOM "wonderboy" in my previous couple of posts. Sorry.

They are all one and the same to me.

Merry Christmas, my friend.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/24/08 08:50 PM
No worries, O Foxy One, I knew what you meant. And I'm with you on your comment to Sadmo. I can't imagine that POSOM will ever be welcome in this house. Sometimes I consider POSOM. On good days, nothing registers, which is how I like it, but other times my wishes for him range from painful death to crippling injury to eternal damnation.

Almost all days are good days lately. Some day he'll get his.

DS9 and I went to the Poinsettia Bowl last night and had a good time. The Boise State Broncos and the TCU Horned Frogs, and it was an exciting game. I'll spare you the discussion of how "cold" it was. DD5 should be here soon, but she's sick, so we'll probably be shut in for the next couple of days. It's cool. We've got stuff to do.

Merry Christmas, everyone!
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/25/08 02:34 PM
MC!! Hope Santa was good to the kiddos this morning.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/26/08 02:58 PM
:MerryChristmas:

Hope your day was wonderful!
Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/26/08 10:41 PM
Hi SD,

...I know I am running late on my comment....but I am with SL on the issue....

Quote
NOT inviting your ex over for the holidays is in no way vindictive, if you are doing it to protect yourself. It's not meant to hurt the ex. It's not done JUST to hurt someone else.

Looks like you are steadly 'sailing' ahead, SD...

Posted By: Sadmo Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/27/08 05:17 AM
Hello all!
With my exh, it was not that I was inviting him over to see the kids on the holidays, he would ask, and I would let him.

I think that I have just come to a point that the less drama I have the happier I am.

I could see how getting a D could eat you alive. Heck, I was in that boat for a while. But, after all was said and done, he did not want to be with ME, and I would not have settled for someone that just 'settled' to be with me. And that was kind of freeing for me. Sure I still get upset once in a while that the kids are being raised without both of their parents, but what could I do? Anger and resentment can eat you alive. I chose to put aside those feelings, for the happiness of my kids. It works for me. As I said too, I would not be able to do it though if I wanted to be back with my exh even a LITTLE. It would hurt too much.

I am not saying that if it would upset anyone that they should do it, I am just saying that I am happier now just moving forward. Not dwelling.

I hope everyone had a great Christmas! My kids and I did! laugh
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/27/08 06:11 AM
Sadmo, you're a better woman than I am! I DID NOT want POWS in this house to celebrate anything...I can't give him an inch, he'll try to take a mile!

I think the holidays have him wanting what he has lost...

SD, I'm with you, not no, but He)), no! with or without another woman...perhaps in the future but I can't see that right now...

I think POWS is still hoping and wishing to some degree...
Originally Posted by Sadmo
Anger and resentment can eat you alive

Sure can. That's why I don't live there anymore. I've truly moved on, but I've moved on in such a way that does not include the Z in MY existence. The relationship he has with his son is his to do with what he can/will.

For me, that means not talking to him, not hangin out with him, and not giving my son any false hope that we will ever be together again; I know my kid, and he probably hopes even without his dad hangin out with us.

Also, the Z would never ask to come over for the holidays. HE'S moved on. This is our dynamic, post separation/divorce, and that's okay. My son will have to live with things the way they are. THat's tough, but coming from a family of divorce myself, that's just the way the ole cookie crumbles...

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/28/08 05:50 AM
Thanks for the Christmas wishes, everyone. We had a pretty good day. It was raining, so we couldn't go to the beach, but both kids were sick, so it was just as well that we stayed home. We got out a little bit yesterday and a bit more today, so we're not doing too bad with the cabin fever.

Yesterday, the OMxW called me on my cell phone. I only saw the number, because she didn't leave a message. It's messed with my peace a bit--what does she want? Did the infidels get married? Is she going to tell me POSOM is taking his kids along on the trip to visit xILs? In the past, I tried to help her, but she was never able to help herself, and now I don't have much use for her. She hasn't called again.

One more day with the kids, then they go back over to the SCQ. Hope everyone is having good holidays!
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/28/08 09:17 AM
Quote
Yesterday, the OMxW called me on my cell phone.

Jesus! What is it with these ppl? OW called BUGS not to long ago...now, you with this...

There has to be something in the air around the holidays! I'm glad that you didn't decided to call her back or anything...no sense in opening up wounds or anything like that!

I KNOW that you are enjoying the kiddos! We've been playin the Xbox since they got home!
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/28/08 06:01 PM
That's a bummer that the kiddos were sick, but they had their daddy there to help. They'll remember things like that. SDGuy, you're a great dad and you can hold you head up proudly about that. You're a shining example of what a Father should be.

When your kids are older will figure out what's what. Unless a miracle happens, SCQ has lost out big time with her kids, she just won't know it until they're old enough to tell her. Then it'll be too late. The damage will be too much.

2009 is going to FANTASTIC for you. I believe that with all my heart.

:happynewyear:
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/28/08 10:42 PM
Thanks PM (and Rin). I'm afraid you're right about the SCQ.

PM, where is the Frisbee quote in your tag line from?
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/29/08 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
PM, where is the Frisbee quote in your tag line from?

I think I saw it on a t-shirt, I really don't remember. smile
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/29/08 12:27 PM
GuySmiley,


So,,,,,,,inquiring minds want to know,,,,,,do you have the kids New Year's Eve ,,,,,,,,,,,,or do you have a DATE?? hmmmm???

I am confident that you are going to have a great 2009, no matter how you bring in the New Year!

:happynewyear:
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/29/08 10:30 PM
Hey, Bugs

I took the kids back over to the SCQ a little while ago. They had been with me for six days in a row, and we were all together the whole time, and it was really getting exhausting, especially with them being sick. And sibling bickering on top of it.

So it's a bit of a relief to get some time to myself, but I'll miss them. They're off to visit xILs in Arizona until I get them back Sunday, and they were worked up over switching back. DD5 cried that she would miss me, and DS9 was upset, too, but didn't want to admit and/or think about it. DS9 thinks that POSOM is coming along on the trip, but I'm sure they'll have a good time.

It's all a bit triggering. I can feel some of the anger again, and a whole range of emotions. Maybe just not enough sleep.

I'll be visiting with friends for New Year's. Not sure what we'll be doing, but I'm sure we'll have fun. I need the vacation--I think the single-dad-over-Christmas thing took more out of me than I realize.

No more dates lined up yet. I followed up appropriately with the most recent date, leaving open the possibility of a second date, and I'm communicating via email with a couple of others. For the most part, I'm taking my time. Better not to rush.

Maybe I'll get a massage today.

Wishing everyone great holidays!
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/30/08 05:54 PM
Quote
I need the vacation

Maybe a trip to Daveco?
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 12/30/08 10:31 PM
SD,

Quote
No more dates lined up yet. I followed up appropriately with the most recent date, leaving open the possibility of a second date, and I'm communicating via email with a couple of others. For the most part, I'm taking my time. Better not to rush.

Maybe I'll get a massage today.

Sounds like PERFECT planning all around!!

Enjoy your time to yourself,,,,,,,,I'm feeling the same way, too! Love the kids, but after having them solo for so long, we need a break!!

Enjoy your New Year's Celebration! Time to ring in something new!!

Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/01/09 03:32 AM
Happy New Year to you too SD. I definitely think 2009 will be a better year for you. For me, I think it will get worse before it gets better, so I'm shooting for 2010.
Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/01/09 07:58 PM
:happynewyear:
Posted By: allemotions Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/02/09 07:25 AM
Hi SDGuy, scanned through a bit of your story on here, I'm new to the site and see you've been going through this for a couple years.

The reason I clicked on it is that I noticed your login and have to ask, there's another blog I'm a regular on Piggington.com, are you on there too? I also saw that there's a Bugs here, that is also another regular at my other blog (totally different type of blog)
Here's my story I just posted last night; http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2185326#Post2185326
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/03/09 01:10 AM
Hi, AE

I don't know the web sites you're talking about, so it must be a different SDGuy. Maybe from South Dakota.
Posted By: believer Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/03/09 01:26 AM
SDGuy - Good job on taking it slow. Remember, there are millions of ladies out there looking for a good guy like you.

Be sure to hang out on the beach in the summer. Women LOVE seeing a man taking care of kids.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/03/09 01:40 AM
The trick is to make sure the kids don't drown while I'm checking out the scenery on the beach. smile
Posted By: believer Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/03/09 01:58 AM
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know how that is. I've taken my boys since they were very young, and it was very stressful, especially when they started surfing at 8 and 11.

But you'll see. Build a sand castle with them, with moats and stuff. Women can't resist a man with kids, and plus it gives you a very SAFE appearance. You'll have the ladies all over you.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/03/09 06:27 AM
I talked with my DS9 a little while ago. He's currently with the SCQ and her parents in Arizona (and POSOM, presumably). They seem to be having a good time, but while on the phone he mentioned that the SCQ had moved out of her townhouse, which means that she has fully moved in with POSOM.

There's nothing new about her taking the kids to his house, but while she had the townhouse, the kids were at least close to their school (and me). Now they'll be 20+ miles away through California freeway traffic.

I'm pretty angry about it. I really didn't think that she was going to do this to the kids. It means an extra hour out of their day spent in the car when they're with her.

And it's all because it's what POSOM wants. And there's no one who will tell her how bad this is for her children.

Plan FU beckons.
Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/03/09 01:45 PM
Hi SD,

Quote
I'm pretty angry about it. I really didn't think that she was going to do this to the kids. It means an extra hour out of their day spent in the car when they're with her.

And it's all because it's what POSOM wants. And there's no one who will tell her how bad this is for her children.

Plan FU beckons.

Sorry about this, SD, especially having to learn about it from DS9! rant2

Sounds like you may have had some 'expectations' that SCQ would, at the very least, if not discuss it, have some consideration and inform you?

I am glad you came here first, as it will hopefully save yourself some anguish... as you very well know that Plan FU will achieve nothing...if not justify further her actions!

It just continues to point out the fact that in your decision-making you are wanting to take into account the kids....and SCQ is not!

This too shall pass, SD, as you and the kids continue to do the best you can... knowing that SCQ, with each additional decision she takes, makes clearer and clearer what her priorities are, and for the kids clearer and clearer who they can count on to be 'in their corner'...and you, my friend, can be proud of THAT!

...all the more reason why the best use of your energy is: continuing to learn on how to take care of...SD!

hugSD hug


Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/06/09 08:43 AM
The SCQ was required by our child custody agreement to inform me within 24 hours of the move. It's no surprise to me that she didn't--she's a small, weak person. She's a conflict avoider, and she knows on some level that what she's done is wrong, so she avoided telling me as long as possible. She probably even has it in her head that avoiding telling me is sparing me somehow, and maybe even in line with what I want. Protecting me.

So, anyway, I don't think I'm terribly angry about that. I just didn't think she'd do it. I thought keeping the kids close to their school was important to her, but POSOM is calling the shots, and I'm sure putting our kids in a car for an hour was no big deal for him.

The anger has dissipated quite a bit. My mom and I had a bet about whether the SCQ would tell me or not. I bet that she wouldn't, and my mom bet that she would. I got the email from the SCQ tonight, outside the time limit even if we factor in the time spent on vacation. I think we'll have to call the bet a draw.

It was a simple email alongside some other logistical ones. It said "We have moved. Our new address is xxx."

I had been mentallly constructing an email in which I reminded her of her responsibility to tell me her new address and then told her why I wouldn't be coming to that place. Telling her that he's the reason our marriage ended; the reason she left it without lifting a finger. The reason she got fired from her job. The reason she became a person capable of looking her spouse and children in the eyes and lying to them. The reason she chose to remove our children from our home. And now the reason she's forcing our children to sit in traffic for over an hour a day. All for POSOM.

And I thought about sending it in reply to her email, but what's the point? All I said in reply was "I won't be coming there. You understand that, right?"

I have another date tomorrow.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/06/09 12:50 PM
Cheers to you SD!

Your response was both elegant and to the point. Though I don't know if I would have punctuated it with a ?.. That's almost like leaving the door open to discussion with the infidel..

Oh well, you know your boundaries and I think they're totally reasonable.

Hope you had a Happy New Year, and enjoyed the time spent with friends, and I'm very happy to see the dating thing seems to be progressing for you. I'm also going out this weekend, but we seem to be sharing the same approach of taking things slow and easy.

Sorry to hear the kids were sick over Christmas, though I do envy a bit the weather you're having as here we're dealing with our annual January freezing rain mixed with snow and then a relatively nice couple of days set up for the weekend. Great weather to get sick in, though fortunately so far the kids and I have managed to escape it.

I'm sure the triggers and such are much easier to let go of these days, at least they are for me post D.. though I know the move has probably really set off the stomache acids. Just keep doing what you're doing and be healthy bro. You living your life to the fullest is going to be the sweetest plan FU ever without you having to say any words.

Take care man!
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/06/09 12:54 PM
Hey SD,

I hear ya on the whole sitch. You are totally right in everything you composed in your email,,,,,,,,,as well as in what you decided to do in response. I have to tell you, it has always bothered me when Drac would say "we" are doing this or that when he was with the Ho. It still bothers me,,,,as I am never sure if he means him & the kids or if it means there is another ho in the picture. I know I should be well past that by now,,,,,,ah well - maybe someday?!

Quote
And I thought about sending it in reply to her email, but what's the point?

There is none. We all know it will have no impact (or at least none that would make a difference in the lives of your children in a positive way).

Quote
All I said in reply was "I won't be coming there. You understand that, right?"

Good response. Yet, do you really expect her to understand? I think you meant this as a statement rather than a question, didn't you?

Quote
I have another date tomorrow.

Good for you!!! hurray
What a p-u-t-z!!! You don't seem at all surprised by this move; disappointed--yes, but surprised? Nah.

Just one more thing to help build resentment for the children. I wonder why the exes don't move before the divorce? I mean, come on, the ink on the bottom line doesn't hide the fact that they committed adultery, but NOW it's all good, cuz of the divorce and all--washes them clean :crosseyedcrazy:

Congrats on the date. Enjoy your time out and about!
Posted By: TheRoad Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/06/09 01:51 PM
I don't remember the details of your story. To long to go through but didn't your WW want to move kids and put them in another school.

But you did not want their lives at school and their sports participation disrupted.

I would call your lawyer as she may use this move to just exactly do this a short time down the road from now.
The Road makes a really good point.

I hope to move DS to another STATE, which would mean a definite change in visitation, but the Z has to APPROVE it. If you two already have physical custody and legal custody all ironed out, she cannot enter them into another school without your prior approval.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/06/09 05:48 PM
Thanks, guys

You're probably right on the leaving the question open. It left the door open for the fight I didn't instigate by saying all the stuff I wanted to say.

It's the old response to the trigger thing. If I'd responded right when I found out about the move, I would have hammered her with all that stuff, which would have started a big nasty fight.

If I'd waited a while longer and breathed a little more, maybe I would have left off the last bit. I'm still fighting the urge to try and control the situation. "Why can't she see that it's not good for the children to sit in traffic for over an hour each day? Won't someone tell her?" Sigh. I left open the option to tell her.

Quote
but didn't your WW want to move kids and put them in another school.
It's a good, thought, Road, but I'm nearly positive she won't do this. My kids are at a great school in one of the best school districts in the county, and she knows that. When she has filled out school stuff for the kids, she lists my address as their home address. I've heard my ILs talk about how she values the school they're in. Plus, I would fight tooth and nail to prevent it, and I would almost certainly win, and I think she knows that, too.

Finally, there's nothing in it for POSOM. He (and the SCQ) both commute from Oceanside to work in my area.
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/06/09 06:21 PM
Quote
#2187998 - 01/06/09 01:43 AM

You need more sleep.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/06/09 06:33 PM
Quote
You need more sleep.
Readjusting from vacation time, but no argument.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/07/09 01:00 AM
SD,

Well, not unexpected but a b*tch just the same. Can you force her to always be the one driving to pick up and deliver the kids?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/07/09 01:07 AM
Quote
Well, not unexpected but a b*tch just the same. Can you force her to always be the one driving to pick up and deliver the kids?

That would be one way of interpreting "I will not come there." There really aren't many direct transfers, so it shouldn't come up much.

No reply from her.
Posted By: believer Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/07/09 01:10 AM
Hey, SD Guy - remember I live in Oceanside, just in case you ever need something.
Posted By: Amazin Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/07/09 01:48 AM
I know you read WildHorses74's thread...

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/07/09 07:37 AM
Thanks, B. I hadn't forgotten and will keep you in mind.
Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/07/09 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by Amazin

I was the inspiration for that skit. I just can't remember if it was for the Swayze character or the Farley character? think

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/07/09 06:58 PM
Quote
I was the inspiration for that skit. I just can't remember if it was for the Swayze character or the Farley character?
rotflmao
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 12:03 AM
Trigger Alert!

The only direct switch of kids that we have is Sunday noon twice a month.

Here's today's email exchange, in response to my email of "I won't be coming there. You understand that, right?"

SCQ: That is fine then the Sunday schedule will need to be changed
SDG: You can pick them up, or we can meet somewhere in the middle.

In case you're wondering, POSOM is not welcome at our house.


SCQ: No the deal we have is who ever has the kids drops them off. If you will not drop them off on those Sundays that I am to have them at noon then we can modify the schedule to eliminate that problem and move to full weekends all the time.

No I wasn't wondering. If POSOM happens to be in the car when I drop stuff off at your house or pick up the kids (which I won't be doing on the Sunday mornings we are discussing) then so be it.


SDG: Do you really want to fight about this?

and, a couple of minutes later

SDG: If you want to have a spiteful relationship with me, then go ahead and rub POSOM in my face.

From my perspective, POSOM (and your decision to "be with" him) is
--the reason we are divorced
--the reason you got fired from your job
--the reason you walked away from our marriage without lifting a finger to save it
--the reason DS9 and DD5 can't be with their father half their lives

and now the reason DS9 and DD5 have to commute 25 miles each way to their school. Over an hour a day in traffic, right? Nice.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. It's all because of him and your affair. This is how I see it.
I already know that it's not how you see it, but you will not change my perspective. Neither of us can change the other's mind (God knows I tried), so we might as well work with what we have. I ask you to respect my point of view and feelings. Keep POSOM away from me, and our relationship need not be hateful.


On the other hand, dating is really fun. Last night I had another first date, and it was very enjoyable. LilSis once called it "intoxicating," how exciting it is to have smart conversation with a new member of the opposite sex. It was easy and relaxed and invigorating and intellectual and just a lot of fun. By the end of it, she asked for a second date, and I agreed.

It's three first dates in about a month, so maybe there's something to this barrel thing.

Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 12:09 AM
UGH. Dark is definitely better. I can see that she always has to come out on top.
Posted By: believer Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 12:42 AM
Oh, good, another date. Just be certain you don't fall madly in love. Keep on going on first dates.
oh, boy, I hate email exchanges like that. Reminds me so much of many that I had with the Z. sigh

Well, you knew that was coming. You knew you couldn't hold it in forever.

Honestly, I just got to the point with the Z that I no longer cared about recovery, so when he ticked me off, I would spew venom. Not pretty, but I was mad as h3ll and I couldn't take it anymore.

Now, we rarely email unless there is a change.

The SCQ cracks me up. She always goes to extremes when you suggest a change; ALWAYS. She always threatens you. What a weakling; trying to hide behind THE AGREEMENT. OOOOOOOO, "it's in the agreement that we such and such, so nah nah nah na boo boo...keep pushing me and I'll bring up this AGREEMENT again, and then go to some idiotic extreme"

...thank god for Bugs Bunny...what a maroon!
Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 05:27 AM
Didn't you say the decree said she had to give you notice...? Then, she has some 'splainin' to do.

One option is to take her to court to renegotiate this and ask the court to have her pay your legal fees. Since she's not paying rent, she should be able to do that.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 06:29 AM
SCQ: No I don't want to fight over this but that doesn't mean that you get your way.

Its not like I'd make him come along just to bug you or to be put in your face. How dare you accuse me of doing that. But if he happens to be in the car, say if I need to pick up the kids after work like when your parents are here or if it is split squad, it could happen. He won't be coming to the door to get them or to drop them off. You rarely come out of the house at those times and probably wouldn't know he was there. Also the number of exchanges that need to be made at a house are few since things usually happen through daycare. So to reduce the cases that cause problems for you we could eliminate the Sunday exchanges. For split squad I typically come to your house so eliminating the Sunday exchange would pretty much eliminate your need to drop them off.

I'm not even going to address the rest of your rant.


SDG: Why does this have to be about one person getting their way? When have I gotten my way in any of this?

And you can call it a rant if you want. Even though I am absolutely convinced I am right, I don't expect you to agree with it, and I don't expect it to change anything about your point of view. Like I said.

I'm explaining my point of view so that you can understand why I'm not coming to that house. And why he's not welcome here.

With only a couple of exceptions, you have done a good job of keeping him away from me. I appreciate it and respect you for it. I'm asking you to continue doing that. It will be better for everyone if you do.

I like the schedule the way it is. If you don't want to pick them up, we can meet in the middle. There's a nice park right off the 5 in Encinitas that would work quite well.


Quote
Well, you knew that was coming.
Yeah, I guess we did, didn't we? Before I left work tonight I started writing another letter to her. Things the way I see them. It was cathartic. Maybe I'll post it when it's finished. I don't know whether I'll give it to her or not.

Quote
Then, she has some 'splainin' to do.
I could push on this, but it would be ugly, and it's easier to just let it go. The decree also says that whoever has the family photos and movies (i.e., me) will provide them to the other within 45 days of the divorce being final so that copies of everything can be made, and I sure as hell didn't do that. She's going to have to ask me if she wants them.

Like I said, easier to let it go. She can't hurt me anymore. Even the email exchange didn't get me particularly worked up. By the time I left work, I felt great, and I was like SuperDad when I got the kids home. The kind of dad I want to be all the time.

Quote
Oh, good, another date. Just be certain you don't fall madly in love. Keep on going on first dates.
Thanks, B. But . . . can't I go on a second date, just to see what that's like? Maybe if I had a disclaimer--"I'm sorry, but Guy Smiley is not allowed to fall in love for at least six months." How about lust? Can I fall into that?
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 04:20 PM
rant2 rant2

GuySmiley, can I PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE come there and

WHOOP HER [censored]!!!???


sigh

There, that feels better. grin

The agreement for the drop off was made prior to you knowing she would be moving them further away, right?

I'm sure you already know my advice: stand strong and force the meeting spot issue. If she can make your kids sit in traffic for an extra hour a day for POSOM, she can sure in the heck take them part of the way for the exchange - which IS better for them.

Dropping them off at that house WILL effect you - and thereby effects your kiddos.

I didn't do the whole picture exchange either. Our decree does not give me a timeline. grin So.....when Babs is gone, he can have his family photos.

If he asks for them sooner, I may do it. Depending on how he asks. wink

I understand the need to vent at her. Luckily, WxH stays as far from me as he can get......his ears would probably be burnt off by the time I got done with him.

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 04:48 PM
Quote
How dare you accuse me of doing that.

What a shrill harpy she is.


Quote
I'm not even going to address the rest of your rant.

Because facts and fantasy don't mix.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 05:36 PM
Quote
How dare you accuse me of doing that.
Yeah, I thought that was a little over the top. I think that she has tried to be sensitive to keeping him away from me, so I can understand her being a bit miffed about me suggesting it. And, of course, some of it is just her trying to hurt me back. I considered a version of a response which included "That's a little over the top, don't you think?" response, but I tried to de-escalate the tone.

Quote
Dropping them off at that house WILL effect you - and thereby effects your kiddos.
I have zero intention of going there. I will hold firm on that one, and I expect her to back off and agree to the park swap. The park swap is probably better for them anyway.

I have already imagined how it would go if I run into POSOM. "How's OMxW? Is it true that you don't pay her any spousal support? How did you manage that? Is it because she had to waive spousal support in order to get time with her children? And because of the charges you filed against her with the police? Wow, you must feel really good about that. Is that why you drink so much?"

or to his daughters "Hi, girls. Where's your mommy? No? How do you feel about that? Do you know who's responsible?"

Much better for her if she keeps POSOM away from me. Which I'm pretty sure she will.
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 05:58 PM
Quote
Much better for her if she keeps POSOM away from me. Which I'm pretty sure she will.

It's been over 2-years now but it would be a serious mistake for Gollum and I to run across each other. I am not sure what I would do.

When I read an email exchange like that I again realize how much I appreciate my situation. Wayzilla and I have not spoken in over a year and a half. Sweet!

She has not contacted DD21 since Christmas Eve, 15 days ago. What a world class mother!

The dating stuff sounds fun. Carry on.
It is really nice when there is very little contact. Any contact the Z and I have is veritably banal. No big whoop. Just the facts and figures for visitation. Of course, I haven't dropped any bombs on him lately, but they're comin...

James mentioned the cold war he and his XW are in, due to the custody stuff...I feel a cold wind comin on in my sitch, probably sometime in the next 6-9 months...Brrrrrrrrr
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 07:47 PM
Quote
I haven't dropped any bombs on him lately, but they're comin...
Yeah, I'm finding that sans bombs, what little contact we've had has been fine.

The latest dustup is the SCQ telling me that she's moved in with POSOM, and me telling her how I feel about POSOM. I think it was important for me to say, because it's hard to know what Waywards are thinking. She would probably desperately love for me to be okay with everything. I'm not. She needed to hear that so that she knows she needs to continue to keep POSOM away from me.

But the exchanges are so much easier than they used to be. This exchange felt like real detachment. The SCQ is becoming more and more like a clinical specimen than someone I used to love.
I'm a little anxious about the scheduling conference tomorrow, even though I know it's just that--a conference to schedule the dates for settlement. Dunno why it's bothering me. I guess I just don't like going to court smirk
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 07:58 PM
Do you have to go? I never went to the scheduling conferences.
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
She would probably desperately love for me to be okay with everything.
This is so unbelievably true and I really don't understand it at all. I mean sure - initially they want us BS's to accept their OP so they can validate their A to the whole world (if we accept it then everyone should). But after a while it gets old. WstbxH has actually stooped to new lows by dropping by with OW's DD7. He knows OW's life is in danger if she sets foot on my property so he does the next best thing - knowing I would say anything in front of a kid.
Originally Posted by Guy Smiley
Do you have to go? I never went to the scheduling conferences.

It seems my lawyer wants me to be there, so I'd say YES. I'm cool with it; it will prepare me for the days to come. It's not THAT big of a deal, just unnerving.

I'm so ready for all of this to be OVER.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 08:27 PM
Quote
WstbxH has actually stooped to new lows by dropping by with OW's DD7.
That's pretty sick. Wayward spouses are disgusting creatures.

Quote
knowing I would say anything in front of a kid.
I wonder about this. I wonder if there's any research on this--on whether helping a child tap into the anger and hurt they have suppressed will help them later in life. I bet it helps.

DS9 gets angry but transfers the anger to other things. Like his sister, or how stupid his homework is, and he can have complete meltdowns over it. I'm trying to help him recognize where the feelings are really coming from and that it's okay to have those feelings.

Many of you probably cringed when I speculated on talking to POSOM's daughters, and the infidels would be absolutely outraged at what I would have to say to them, but I bet I could make a case that it would be in their own best interest.

"Hi girls, where's your mommy? How do you feel about not living with your mommy part of the time? Yes, it would make me sad and angry, too. It's okay to feel that way. I know I would. And how about sharing your room with someone else's children? And sharing your dad? Yeah, it all makes you sad, doesn't it? Whose fault is it? No, it's not your fault, is it? Who do you think you should blame?"

You KNOW that conversation isn't happening, legitimizing the feelings they don't even know they are having. Instead, that stuff will probably manifest itself on the kids later in life.

Waywards suck.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 08:29 PM
Quote
It seems my lawyer wants me to be there, so I'd say YES. I'm cool with it; it will prepare me for the days to come. It's not THAT big of a deal, just unnerving.

Okay, then you should go. You'll be fine. Just do the goddess thing. You know, there's the chin and the chest, and something about heels, or is it boots?

I know you'll do great, though, because you'll have the bracelets and magic lasso in your handbag.
I suppose I could wear my Kinky Boots

Is it Chest UP, Head OUT, or no, wait, I think it's gotta be your chest...no...um...er...okay, lemme think on that.

I'll be lookin good (like that's really a problem--AS IF). wink

Plus, I JUST got my fingers and toes did, so I'm lookin' all girlie and such.

Then, it's the weekend, and I can let it all go...
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 08:48 PM
I'm in there with Fox, I just want to beat her [censored]!!!!!!!!!!!


:twobyfour:

"You know my mama says that alligators are so mean becasue they have all those teeth and no toothbrush!"

I think that SHE needs a new name!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 09:48 PM
Escalation continues.

SCQ: Why would you think that I would create uncomfortable situations for anyone on purpose or change what I'm doing now. Its not like POSOM would open the door when you dropped off the kids but I cannot guarantee that he will never be in the car when I have to pick up or drop off the kids from any where.

If you aren't dropping the kids off at my house then I'm not dropping the kids off at your house on those Sundays. Meeting in the middle is not practical. Neither of us are on time. Not that it is bad, it just is. The kids won't be comfortable with it. DS9 is already well aware and sensitive to the fact that you will not talk on the phone or be in the same space as me. (BTW if you plan to go to his performance and plan to avoid me, go on Thursday. I don't know if I will go on Weds or Fri).

Meeting in the middle still does not guarantee that you won't see him. In fact it is more likely that you will see him because if I have to go out to get them on Sundays in the middle somewhere then it is more likely we will just go and do something then and will all be in the car.


SDG: You're the one who created the uncomfortable situation. It's all based on your choices. Not mine.

I'm not accusing you of wanting to make things uncomfortable. I'm telling you it is probably in your interest to go out of your way to avoid making things uncomfortable for me. If I get triggered by seeing him, my response will be an emotional one--it will hurt, and I will react from emotion. The most likely response would be to try to hurt you back, or at least make it uncomfortable for you and him. I really don't think anyone wants that. You can't imagine how much restraint I've shown over the last two years while I was still hoping for marital recovery.

I'm not coming to that house, and I don't want to change the schedule. Meeting at the park is a good solution.

You're the one who's never on time. We started coming late because showing up at your place to find you not there made me really angry, especially knowing where you were coming from and what it said about your priorities.

This is headed towards a fight. If that's the way you want it, we can go that way. It's up to you. It's not what I want.


Let me know if I'm getting out of control here.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 09:53 PM
You're doing fine.

You've told her you will not drop off at that house and have offered an alternative.

The ball is in her court.

Just remember to repeat, with each email, that you are attempting to work out a solution, and to ask if she has any OTHER suggestions beyond ending the Sunday shuffle. You want that to be in each and every correspondence. Other than that, you aren't saying anything untrue or malicious.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 10:02 PM
You're doing fine. You are stating the truth and that is it.

SHE is the one that moved them further away - if she doesn't like the half way spot, she can move closer or come up with an alternative solution

It's nice to be able to stick up for yourself and not have to worry how it will look or how she may pay you back legally, isn't it.

Fox
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 10:05 PM
Quote
If you aren't dropping the kids off at my house then I'm not dropping the kids off at your house on those Sundays.

Tell her this is fine.

Quote
Meeting in the middle is not practical.

Sure it is.

Lots of people exchange children in places like this. Besides, now that she has moved farther away from you it would save you both commute time.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 10:14 PM
Thanks, ladies. While you've been posting, I've been working on a follow-up email. It's probably over the top with emotion and anger, but like Fox says, this is cathartic.

Proposed: Here's where this is headed. One of us filing to go back to mediation. We'll get the same mediator. We'll explain the situation. Do you suppose you'll be the one to tell her how you've shacked up with your boyfriend (or are you already married?) and are forcing the kids to commute 25 miles (each way) to their school, or will I?

I'll say that you expect me to bring the kids to his house for drop-offs. I'll explain to her how I feel--that POSOM is the reason we're divorced. That POSOM is the reason that I have to be a part-time father. That he's the reason the kids have to commute. Because she's a former mental health professional, she'll know I'm right.

I'll tell her how I'm pretty sure POSOM has been lying to both you and POSOM's xW and manipulating you. I'll tell her how POSOM's xW told me his reasoning for getting the kids together so soon after you moved out (which she thought was a bad idea. Remember?) was "Oh, I only did that to hurt SDGuy." I'll tell her about POSOM's xW's suspicions that POSOM is an alcoholic and a smoker, and that I think my kids would be better off if they weren't exposed to POSOM at all, but that's not an option, because I can't really prove anything. But she'll see how intensely I hate POSOM, and, again, because she's a mental health professional, she'll know that (whether I'm right or wrong) I have every reason and right to feel this way.

Then you'll chime in and say that we can do away with this problem by changing the schedule for Sundays.

But that doesn't really solve the problem, I'll say. It's unrealistic to think that all of our transfers can take place through daycare or school. We need a neutral location for transfers. We didn't before, because it wasn't such a problem, but now we do. Since she's the one who committed adultery and left the marriage without trying to save it and has moved so far away to a place that is emotionally repulsive to me, I think the transfer location should be the house where the children and I live, but in the interest of settling this amicably, I suggested a park in Encinitas, where the kids could work out some of their transfer tension by playing.

I'd just as soon not go this way, but if it's what you prefer, we can do this. I'll probably ask for court costs. I wonder if I'll get them.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 10:30 PM
I can feel the tension leaving your shoulders and neck all the way up here, my friend.

Cooler heads will chime in, I'm sure, about how this doesn't help the situation, but dayum! I like it.

It's still all the truth. She doesn't have to like it.

Fox
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 10:33 PM
I'd have to add at the end, though: "Wanna play?" or "So, are you in?"

I told WxH one time after the done-o-meter had reached it's peak, "Fight me, I dare you."

He had no response.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 10:34 PM
Knew you'd like it.

Addendum: Say, you know what? I've changed my mind. You can bring POSOM along any time. I have some questions for him and a few things I'd like to tell him.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 10:35 PM
rotflmao

Or, "I've got something I'd like to give POSOM."

grin

Waywards are cowards.

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 10:40 PM
Quote
I'd have to add at the end, though: "Wanna play?" or "So, are you in?"

I told WxH one time after the done-o-meter had reached it's peak, "Fight me, I dare you."
Ooh. I like that.

It would be interesting to watch her reaction. She knows she can't win an exchange or debate like this with me. Part of the problem, probably. Her tactic was stonewall/passive resistance. On top of that, she has surrendered ALL of the high ground.

But she definitely has the knee-jerk get the last word/don't let SDGuy get what he wants. I wonder which one would win out?

Okay, I guess I'm a bit worked up now, but it's in that exhiliarating adrenaline rush way. Guess I should breathe for a while.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 10:42 PM
And the responsible, grown-up thing to do is look for a way to de-escalate this by letting her save face somehow.

Sigh.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 10:51 PM
Is that the responsible, grown-up thing to do?

wink

There's no saving face at this point.

Fox (COMPLETELY against appeasement)
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 11:07 PM
SD,

This woman just HAS to win an argument doesn't she? You know, it isn't the high road, but sometimes you just have to duke it out in the pit if for no other reason than to feel good for a moment in time. Sometimes we all need that little shot in the arm. It may serve no purpose, but I'm on the verge of doing it too. You go first.

Do you EVER really want this woman back?
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 11:11 PM
For me, it's a self-respect thing. I just can't let WxH win on something so purely wrong.

Quote
You go first.

grin

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 11:31 PM
Quote
Do you EVER really want this woman back?
No.

SCQ: Threats. Way to go.

If you aren't going to drop off at my house I'm not dropping off at your house on Sundays. The arrangement is whoever has the kids drops off.

We may very well be back in mediation.


She's asking for it, isn't she?
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 11:34 PM
Yup, I say give it to her.

But you know whether that will harm you in the end.

Fox
Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 11:47 PM
Hi SD,

Quote
You can bring POSOM along any time. I have some questions for him and a few things I'd like to tell him.

Surprising SCQ with the 'unexpected' could be interesting.

SD, I have read the last few pages.

It sounds important enough for you if you are willing to go back to mediation/court over it, right?

....it's been done...when one parent moves further away, that a 'neutral' middle-of-the road meeting point be established.

.....and in the process it looks like you are taking the opportunity to speak YOUR truth?

Just wondering...how are feeling about speaking your TRUTH? Any expectations? ...wouldn't want it to translate into more frustration for SD. :RollieEyes:

On a more positive note....it looks like you are doing pretty good on the 'dating game' front. cool





Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 11:50 PM
Refined (and not sent. probably better as catharsis and not showing my hand):

I don't see any threats. I see where I've asked you to avoid putting me and the kids into uncomfortable situations, and I've proposed a reasonable alternative. You have made one suggestion that doesn't really solve the real problem--that I'm not coming to that house.

If your not dropping the kids off at our house feels like winning for you, it's fine with me. The park will work for that, too.

Mediation. Yes, I thought you might threaten that, but I don't think you've thought it through. I'm happy to go that way. Shall I go ahead and arrange it? We'll get the same mediator. We'll explain the situation. Do you suppose you'll be the one to tell her how you've shacked up with your boyfriend (or are you already married?) and are forcing the kids to commute 25 miles (each way) to their school, or will I? How do you think the mediator will feel about what you're doing to our children?

I'll say that you expect me to bring the kids to his house for drop-offs. I'll explain to her how I feel--that POSOM is the reason we're divorced. That POSOM is the reason that I have to be a part-time father. That he's the reason the kids have to commute. Because she's a former mental health professional and family counselor, she'll know I'm right.

I'll tell her how I'm pretty sure POSOM has been lying to both you and POSOM's xW and manipulating you. I'll tell her how POSOM's xW told me his reasoning for getting the kids together so soon after you moved out (which she thought was a bad idea. Remember?) was "Oh, I only did that to hurt SDGuy." I'll tell her about POSOM's xW's suspicions that POSOM is an alcoholic and a smoker, and that I think my kids would be better off if they weren't exposed to POSOM at all, but that's not an option, because I can't really prove anything. But she'll see how intensely I hate POSOM, and, again, because she's a mental health professional, she'll know that (whether I'm right or wrong) I have every reason and right to feel this way. She'll know that it's in the best interest of everyone to keep POSOM away from me.

Then you'll chime in and say that we can do away with this problem by changing the schedule for Sundays.

But that doesn't really solve the problem, I'll say. It's unrealistic to think that all of our transfers can take place through daycare or school. We need a neutral location for transfers. We didn't before, because it wasn't such a problem, but now we do. Since she's the one who committed adultery and left the marriage without trying to save it and has moved so far away to a place that is emotionally repulsive to me, I think the transfer location should be the house where the children and I live, but in the interest of settling this amicably, I suggested a park in Encinitas, where the kids could work out some of their transfer tension by playing.

I'll say that I've tried at every step to keep this from turning into a fight, that I've tried to propose alternate solutions, but that the tone of your emails is that you seem to be insisting that I be willing to confront POSOM and that you refuse to let me have "my way."

I'd just as soon not go this way, but if it's what you prefer, we can do this. I'll probably ask for court costs. I wonder if I'll get them.

It makes me wonder. Why are you so desperate for me to face POSOM and be okay with it? Are you seeking someone's approval for what you've done? You know what? I've changed my mind. You can bring him along whenever you want. I have some things I'd like to discuss with him.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 11:55 PM
Hi, Luna

Thanks for the perspective.

Quote
how are feeling about speaking your TRUTH? Any expectations?
I think it was freeing to get it out of me, even unsent and unfinished. If I sent it to her--and what I've shown so far is far from my TRUTH letter--I would have zero expectations. It would make no difference whatsoever.

The way I've approached the TRUTH letter is "You can't hear me now, but there are some things I want to say, and by the time you'll be able to hear them, I won't be interested in saying them any more. It doesn't mean they're not important. I still want you to understand why I did what I did and how hard I fought to save our family. And you."
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/08/09 11:57 PM
And dating is a blast.
I would simply tell the SCQ that it was HER choice to move and you will be fine with mediation, considering NOTHING has changed on your end. If she absolutely NEEDS someone else to help her work out the problems she has created with her decision to move, so be it. You have made a suggestion and have been waiting for some reasonable counter suggestion to no avail.

If you really feel like tossing all that other stuff in there, go right ahead.

Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 12:02 AM
SD,

Quote
Refined (and not sent. probably better as catharsis and not showing my hand):

Yeah, SD...it's better to post it here.

I am sorry for your pain, SD.

Do what you think is best for you.

hugSD hug


Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 12:16 AM
SD,

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We may very well be back in mediation.

She's asking for it, isn't she?

I would stop the 'escalation' of the exchanges, SD, and just say: YES, let's go back to mediation. The idea of going to POSOM's house seems to be a major 'trigger' for you. It's important that you do what you can in a more 'constructive' way.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 12:43 AM
Yeah, I think I'll go with what SL has proposed or the like.
You know what, Guy, I did plenty of 'tossing that other stuff in'. It felt good for about a second. What felt better was when I laid it out as I've said to you, and he HAD to come back with a reasonable counter, else look like he was being petty. I got tired of him or anyone else thinking I was petty, and the high road, though more difficult, did feel much better, and has ever since.

If he came at me completely out of line, I threw it all right back at him. I put it on him and walked away. THAT was pretty satisfying all on it's own.

It's been fairly easy and noneventful to work with him in the last year, prolly 'cuz I'm DUN, even DUN, for the most part, with attempting to stick it to him. I don't care for him anymore, and the effort to argue is too much to put forth for a non-entity. Heck, I wouldn't mind picking DS up from his place, but he doesn't seem to want me to know where it is. So, he carts DS around for visitation. His choice.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 12:56 AM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Yeah, I think I'll go with what SL has proposed or the like.

Totally agree. Then mention to the mediator everything that you stated above. Don't let this woman keep bulldozing you.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 12:00 PM
SD,

Excellent Rant my friend, most Excellent! Glad you got that out of your system! I know how just getting it down into words on a page,,,,even just this page, can make all of the difference in how we feel. Sharing it, venting it, getting it out of US is a good thing.

SL has got you covered on this one. Straight, factual, to the point. No threats or emotions.

In my 'kid' communications with Drac, I've taken what I call the "Yes or No/A or B" approach. I state the situation and then give him a Yes or No/Pick A or B question. The choices enable me to be prepared, lessen the back and forth, and I am able to be emotionally prepared in advance. Sure, sometimes he throws in Option B (as in Bull s**t), but it happens less with this approach.

Whatever works for you and keeps you on the steady keel, do it. You have been doing great!

Oh,,,,and the great dating thing helps, too, doesn't it??!

So, what are the weekend plans?
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 02:22 PM
I really don't know SD, throwing all of that extra stuff in there looks to me like showing your cards early.

IF this does reach mediation again, then you're going to want to be able to get all of that out with the suprise factor in tow.

I'd simply note that you're offering a compromise solution, she's offered nothing but ultimatums and is now the one threatening more legal maneuverings. That it's really in the best interests of the children for the two of you to be able to come to an agreement that the both of you can live with, you've established your boundary and it's not a new one, you don't want to see/deal with POSOM.. her response that she will not come to your house is nothing more than vindictiveness as there is no reason for it other than retalliation.

Besides, you're not -asking- her to come to your house, you're offering a reasonable solution.

I'd set out the parameters like this:

A) I'm not coming to your house.
B) I won't deal with POSOM
C) Midway dropoff seems to me to be the logical solution.

Now if you don't like C.. come up with a suggestion that respects A and B, and we can avoid mediation.

If you feel the need to go to mediation after I have tried my best to offer a reasonable solution to the change in circumstances YOU created, be prepared to foot the bill.

Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 04:03 PM
Damn cooler heads. mad


Fox grin
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 04:21 PM
The no hair thing provides excellent air conditioning.

grin
Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 04:22 PM
Cut him some slack Foxy. He doesn't have any hair on his wink
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 04:23 PM
shocked
Posted By: TheRoad Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 04:46 PM
If you had an agreement for children to stay in their schools then you should force WW to move back into that district.

I would get a lawyer force WW to move back into the school district.

When a child is not living in a school that child is no longer entitled to go to those schools. Even though you may live in the district the children are not going to sleep in the district. Thus they are not residents.

By allowing WW to locate the residence of the kids to outside the district. All some one has to do is tip off the district about your kids residence and they will be thrown out of the old school and forced to attend schools were OM lives.

This will give you less access to your kids and less opportunities to be involved in their education activities, and community youth activities.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by BetrayedCajun
Cut him some slack Foxy. He doesn't have any hair on his wink


faint



rotflmao

Swimmers do the oddest things for "speed"

Fox
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 05:02 PM
I lived in Modesto for a few years when DDs were in kindergarten and first grade - what TheRoad is saying was certainly the case there.

I had to do some quick thinking (fibbing) so that DDs could go to a decent school. The house WxH found for us was in one of the crappiest neighborhoods in Modesto - there was no way I was letting my DDs go to school in that area.

Fox
Originally Posted by Foxy lady
Swimmers do the oddest things for "speed"

Oh, it doesn't end with the hair, either... puke
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 05:22 PM
I would keep it sweet, short and simply!

The park or I would be happy to go back to mediation. Would you like for me to set that up?

Also, get the lawyer if there was a voilation of the agreement and hold her to it!

I wouldn't include any of the other stuff...like someone mentioned you don't want to give away all of your cards...it's appraent that she is not acting in the best interest of the children from my POV.

just my 2 cents!
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 05:45 PM
I understand the points of view saying to de-escalate the situation. The old "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar".....

Who the heck wants flies?

I digress.

Part of the reason I am an advocate of the "let 'em have it" email is that sometimes it seems like the BS is the ONLY one to actually tell the wayward LIKE IT IS. No one else will do it, no one else CAN do it.

IMO, sometimes we are doing the wayward a favor by letting them hear it.

The high road can be just fine.....I just sometimes see it as being a martyr and reinforcing the "I'm better than you" attitude that the waywards accuse us of.

And....

I just like to let 'em have it.


They deserve a little mental/verbal right hook to the chin on occasion.

Fox
I wholly believe in being honest and forthright with the ex, FO SHO, but I don't advocate stirring the pot just for stirring's sake.

I don't feel like a martyr, cuz I'm still breathing and all. I do 'let em have it' if I get BullSh-- coming from the Z. I just don't get any crap from him anymore, 'cuz I don't care anymore. I say what I mean and I mean what I say.

I'm not interested in flies either. I'm interested in settling this crap sooner than later.

If it's a fight she wants, then fight her.


Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 06:37 PM
Can't you just whip up something in the lab and be done with it?
Originally Posted by Chrisner
Can't you just whip up something in the lab and be done with it?


OOOOOO, a project....
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 07:32 PM
Lots of great stuff while I was volunteering in kindergarten this morning. We practiced writing the letter c.

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Can't you just whip up something in the lab and be done with it?
Heh. Don't think it hasn't crossed my mind in those fantasy moments. I suppose I could, but I think they might suspect me if he suddenly keeled over. In my list of life goals, "Avoid prison" actually ranks very high. Near the top. Plus, as much as I think the world would be a better place without POSOM in it, doing it myself would be against my nature. I'm a live and let live guy.

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I just sometimes see it as being a martyr and reinforcing the "I'm better than you" attitude that the waywards accuse us of.
But, Foxy, we ARE better than them. I mean, that's just the way it is. Especially if we stick to the high road.

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is that sometimes it seems like the BS is the ONLY one to actually tell the wayward LIKE IT IS. No one else will do it, no one else CAN do it.
I agree with you here, Fox, but it's not like any of it will sink in. WS's just can't hear it. Saying what I already did was enough to get my point across. Including the rest will just make her sink her heels in deeper and get nastier. Plus, it will be more fun to spring it on her at mediation.

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Damn cooler heads.
rotflmao

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it's appraent that she is not acting in the best interest of the children from my POV.
I think that will be pretty obvious to a mediator if it comes to that.

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be prepared to foot the bill.
Yeah, she loves threatening me with court costs. It would be fun to put that back on her.

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Oh,,,,and the great dating thing helps, too, doesn't it??!
Absolutely. It's a nice diversion. Six months ago, an exchange like this one would have had me tied in knots for a few days, but these triggers fade very quickly.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 07:38 PM
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I'm a live and let live guy.

sigh

I don't know you at all.......

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But, Foxy,

Right after this, ya lost me. grin

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we ARE better than them. I mean, that's just the way it is. Especially if we stick to the high road.

Oh, yeah. this is what you said after BUT.

I'm a middle road kinda person myself.

I get ya, Amigo. I know what you all are saying here and you may be right.

If you can sleep at night with what you decide, THAT is what is important.

Fox

Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 07:41 PM
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I'm a live and let live guy.

And to think we were once friends.
Originally Posted by Foxy
If you can sleep at night with what you decide, THAT is what is important.

Better yet, if SCQ CAN'T sleep at night with what you decide, I'm all for it dance2
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 07:53 PM
I don't know, Guy Smiley, we might just have to kick you out of the Amigohood.

Aw, geesh, who am I kidding? Nobody gets kicked out of the Amigohood!! uhuh

You've got a life sentence with us!

The Foxinator flirt

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 07:55 PM
Here's what I sent:

SDG: I don't see any threats. I see trying to come up with a solution to avoid unpleasant situations.

If you don't want to come to our house, that's fine. We can meet at the park for those exchanges, too.

If you still want to fight over it, mediation is fine with me. Shall I set it up?
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 08:01 PM
sigh

Well, I hate to admit it. But that was probably better than the original.

The fewer words - the scarier it will be for her.


Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 08:05 PM
I could have done it in a couple letters.

Foxtrot Yankee
Originally Posted by Foxy lady
The fewer words - the scarier it will be for her

I find myself doing a lot of editing in my emails. If I use the words--because, or but, or anything that would indicate I'm going to follow that up with an explanation of WHY I choose to do something--I roll my eyes and then hit delete... delete... delete.

I don't have to explain myself. Neither do you, Guy. You just have to lay out the facts, say what you are willing to do to remedy the issue and drop it. The reason you don't want to go to SCQ's house could be that you have a fobia of driving more than 15 miles away from home in that specific direction; it doesn't matter; what matters is the solution...
Originally Posted by Chrisner
Foxtrot Yankee

I do so love those sweet letters...
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 08:19 PM
rotflmao
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 09:07 PM
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By allowing WW to locate the residence of the kids to outside the district. All some one has to do is tip off the district about your kids residence and they will be thrown out of the old school and forced to attend schools were OM lives.

In Texas (or at least in the community I live in) you can pay a transfer fee and have your kid attend any school you want. I don't know if it's that way where SD lives.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 10:17 PM
Quote
Quote:By allowing WW to locate the residence of the kids to outside the district. All some one has to do is tip off the district about your kids residence and they will be thrown out of the old school and forced to attend schools were OM lives.

In Texas (or at least in the community I live in) you can pay a transfer fee and have your kid attend any school you want. I don't know if it's that way where SD lives.
She hasn't changed the residence of the kids. They reside with me. She has maintained my address as their residence all along. I haven't checked with the school or anything, but if she has done anything to jeopardize their status at the school (I kind of doubt this), I'll go back to my lawyer and seek however much custody I need to keep them at their school.

She's not making this easy.

SCQ: Yes threats, if you get triggered you may hurt me.

On my days with the kids they are to remain at school or at Therese's and I will pick them up. They are not to go to your house.

[color:#000000]and shortly after


The solution is to reduce the situations where either of us have to go to the others house. That is to eliminate the Sunday exchanges.[/color]

SDG: Hey, relax. It's what would happen to anyone. When one gets triggered like that, it's how we tend to respond. Look at what you've done in this email exchange. You got triggered by some of the things that I've said, and you have tried to hurt me. First by making a demand about the forms and titles, threatening with court costs, and now with something out of the blue about the kids coming to my house on your days (does that include when their grandparents are here? Who is that hurting?)

You're trying to hurt me because you don't like what I've said. It's what people do. I'm telling you that asking me to come to POSOM's house and bringing him to my house will hurt me, so I'm trying to figure out how to avoid those situations.

Eliminating the Sunday exchange doesn't solve the problem. Do you really think that we can go forward only having exchanges through daycare and school? What about holidays? Sick days? We need another drop off plan.

I have made it clear that I am not coming to POSOM's house, so unless you're willing to do all the exchanges at our house, we'll need someplace neutral. Which is what I've been trying to suggest.


Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 10:30 PM
Anthrax, I’m thinking anthrax.
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 10:37 PM
She reminds me of the Queen of Hearts in Alice. "Off with their heads! Off with their heads!"

"A threat!! Look everyone I have been threatened!!!!"
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 10:42 PM
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She reminds me of the Queen of Hearts in Alice. "Off with their heads! Off with their heads!"

"A threat!! Look everyone I have been threatened!!!!"

rotflmao


I like how you keep calling it "our" house.

It's a very very very fine house.

grin

Fox
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by SCQ at her finest
On my days with the kids they are to remain at school or at Therese's and I will pick them up. They are not to go to your house.

You can imagine what happened when I read this.

My first reaction (after the spine stiffens): oh, they are, are they? naughty

Fox




Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 11:05 PM
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SCQ: Yes threats, if you get triggered you may hurt me.

Is she really implying physical violence?

Keep your Lawyers number handy. That line worries me SD. Be careful what you put in writing.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 11:18 PM
Well, I would like to think that I'm protected by the context of the rest of the discussion, but who knows. She's really pissed off, and when she gets that way she says stuff she doesn't mean.

I held up the mirror.

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I like how you keep calling it "our" house.
By our house, I mean me and the kids. My house is "their home." The other place is POSOM's house. They understand the distinction. The SCQ doesn't seem to have picked up on the subtlety yet.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 11:21 PM
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Is she really implying physical violence?

Keep your Lawyers number handy. That line worries me SD. Be careful what you put in writing.
Good point. That's just the kind of disgusting tactic POSOM used to get custody of his children. I should be more careful.
It's good that your responded by telling SCQ to relax. Now there is email record that you do not intend on physically hurting anyone.

The last part of your last email was solid. STick to stuff like that. Don't be vague. Be concise and now that you have discussed WHY you will not go to her house, move on and don't get dragged back into discussions over the same subject. Just keep pushing a solution.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/09/09 11:34 PM
Follow up.

SDG: Wait, you don't think I'm talking about physical violence, do you? I'm talking about hurt feelings and things being said that people might regret.

I think you're really angry right now. Sometimes when you get angry, you say things that you don't mean, and I don't want to escalate this any more.

I'm not trying to hurt you. I'm not trying to win anything from you. It's not about getting what I want.

You already won. Don't you see that? We're divorced. You got to move in with POSOM. You get to live as a big, happy family. That's what you wanted. I lost. I lost my family.

Your seeming insistence that I come to POSOM's house or accept him at mine seems cruel to me. Is it really necessary given what I've told you about how I feel? Neutral child exchange points are very common. I don't see why you need one, but if it makes you feel better, then fine.

I don't want to argue about this via email any more, but I would still prefer to avoid mediation. It really shouldn't be necessary, but I'll set it up if you want or still think I'm being unreasonable.


Okay, this is now officially using up too much of my life force. Sigh.

If that doesn't get her to back down, nothing will. Destroying her in front of a mediator, while satisying, sounds more like a hassle.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/10/09 06:18 AM
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The kids won't be comfortable with it. DS9 is already well aware and sensitive to the fact that you will not talk on the phone or be in the same space as me. (BTW if you plan to go to his performance and plan to avoid me, go on Thursday. I don't know if I will go on Weds or Fri).

It REALLY bothers her that you ignore her. That you can't put her adultery behind you. That you can't just be friends.

The fact that she sees that your son notices how you treat her, BUGS the crap out of her. She knows that as he grows older, he will judge the rightness and wrongness of what happened. She knows that in the end, she will LOOSE her son's respect.

Unless you embrace the sitch.

Drop the kids off at her new home.

Start talking to her.

That's why she'd rather you go to your son's performance on a night she won't be there. That way your son won't see the way you ignore her.

When you told her you wouldn't be dropping the kids off at POSOM's house, it added to what she fears the most.

She may have "won" the end of the M, but she will loose her children's respect.

If she keeps up this "You threatened me" crap, tell her you'd be ok exchanging the kids at a police station...anywhere other than POSOM's house.





Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/10/09 08:10 AM
Thanks, Marsh. I value your opinion.

I have to admit that this exchange has been wearing on me. It didn't for the first 80% of the emails, but the last couple have drained me.

Tonight, however, I went out with my neighbors for game night. A bar no one really knew anything about. Pool, shuffleboard, and darts. It was awesome.

I had a babysitter over to stay with the kids. We have a babysitter right of refusal, so I sent the SCQ an email telling her about tonight, asking her whether she wanted to exercise her right of refusal. She told me (basically) I didn't tell her soon enough.

She can go [censored] herself.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/10/09 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
She can go [censored] herself.

That's my boy, SD. grin
Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/11/09 06:58 AM
:crosseyedcrazy: I SO know what you mean!!!!
Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/13/09 08:10 PM
Hi SD,

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I have to admit that this exchange has been wearing on me.

Totally understandable.... "exchanging" with a WS can be exhausting faint

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Tonight, however, I went out with my neighbors for game night. A bar no one really knew anything about. Pool, shuffleboard, and darts. It was awesome.

cool
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/13/09 09:06 PM
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Totally understandable.... "exchanging" with a WS can be exhausting
Yeah. For the rookies in the audience, I let that go on way too long, I think. The first couple of exchanges didn't bother me, but at the end they started to creep into my consciousness in open moments--driving, yoga final relaxation, trying to go to sleep. It's a sign that I'm feeling good when those moments aren't filled with that kind of junk.

It was a nice, low-impact weekend with the kids. It ended with a neighborhood party watching our Chargers lose (sigh) and me coming down with a cold (double-sigh).

Tomorrow morning at work we have a meeting scheduled to discuss 'planned changes to our workgroup.' There are layoffs all around, it's probably just a question of whether I lose co-workers or my job. (Sigh squared).
Originally Posted by Guy Smiley
There are layoffs all around, it's probably just a question of whether I lose co-workers or my job.

Gosh, Guy, I'll have my fingers crossed for you. That stinks.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/13/09 09:18 PM
Yipes, Guy Smiley.

Breathe, my friend. sigh

hug


Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/13/09 10:56 PM
I'm way less worked up about it than you might imagine. I know I'll be okay, one way or another. I worry more about losing some my co-workers and how sad that would be.

I've been pretty relaxed about the whole thing and am trying to keep some of the younger folks loose.

It is what it is.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/13/09 10:59 PM
Good attitude, sdguy.

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It is what it is.

Is that the ghost of BR I hear?

Fox
I say that all the time now. It is what it is. Ghosties or not ghosties, I've gotten better at accepting what is outside of my control.

Now if I could stop ULTRA controlling those minions within my control. MWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA cool
Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/14/09 02:06 AM
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Is that the ghost of BR I hear?
faint

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I say that all the time now. It is what it is.

....guess you better get used to hearing it, Fox! grin
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/14/09 04:25 AM
BR was right about a lot of stuff, and 'making yourself miserable fighting What Is is stupid' was chief among them.

The Serenity Prayer is one of the wisest, most useful mantras ever, but I think a lot of people dismiss it too easily. Or too simply. Or something.
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/14/09 01:39 PM
Good Morning! grin

Just stopping in to say HI and catching up...

The serenity prayer has been a life saver for me...there are a few other saying that I've had to call to the forefront of my mind this week!

Don't give up five minutes before the miracle! AND:

If God brought you to it, he'll bring you through it!

I also find myself saying: It is what it is! grin

rotflmao We're all in line to pass on the wise of our forefathers!

HAve a great day!
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/14/09 01:57 PM
Hey there SD.. I'm sorry about the exchange, and having seen your response on my thread I'm sure you know that I can TOTALLY relate to what you're dealing with.

Not much to add here that hasn't already been said, but I'll be happy to be your 'corner man' in this...

Slip in there and land a few quick jabs to soften her up (stick to the facts)

Stay away from her right hand (ignore the crap she's spewing.. besides.. who knows where it's been... the hand that is.. puke )

Get her on the ropes and keep her there (hold her to your solution, or force her to come up with a better one rather than just to complain about yours.. if it's unacceptable to you, simply state that.. you don't have to explain why.. her alternative is to go back to mediation.. it's a threat, and probably an empty one if she's going to have to pay too)

Wait for your moment, and then land your knockout blow (if it comes to mediation, you'll be better off using your heavy artillery there, rather than showing your hand early)


Keep on keepin on brother..

Life does get better.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/14/09 05:54 PM
Mornin' boys and girls! laugh

I'm sure I overanalyze the "it is what it is" statement. 'cause while it is what it is in the moment, it doesn't have to be that way forever. I see it as more like staying in a rut and blaming it on "it is what it is" and I can't change it so I'm stuck.

You may not be able to control every aspect of a situation, but what you can change, DO. If that is what you want.

What IS isn't what HAS to be. KWIM?

And you're right, BR was right about alot of things. We had our moments, but there was value in what she had to say.

(and yes, I put a BUT in there and immediately thought of her.) grin It in no way discounts that we had our moments.

Fox
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/14/09 06:03 PM
There goes Foxy again.. throwin her 'but' around..

grin
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/14/09 06:04 PM
If ya got it, flaunt it!

dance2

Fox
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/14/09 06:29 PM
Any news on the job front, Guy Smiley. I saw the news this morning and they said how many people your company is laying off. Kinda scary.

hug

Fox
Originally Posted by Foxy
it is what it is" and I can't change it so I'm stuck.

It is what it is, so accept that and MOVE FORWARD, is how I take 'it is what it is'. If I wanted to blame blame blame anybody for 'it is what it is' I would not be divorcing, I would not have found a way to pay for college on my own when I was a kid, I would have taken defeat when DS was losing his mind post separation, etc. and so on.

Nope, not what I did at all. I accepted that what I could control (myself) I would, and make changes to deal with what was at hand. I couldn't control HOW DS felt, but I could control HOW I dealt with it. I couldn't control that my mom had no funds to help me with college, I could control how I could go about paying for it myself. I couldn't control the Z, so I changed me, and found the light at the end of my tunnel.

Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/14/09 08:50 PM
DD21 and I hate that phrase. To us it drips of waywardness and fog. Wayzilla started out of the blue using that phrase incessantly after D-Day for the first time in her life. It was her out of every discussion.

DD would mimic her mom's "It is what it is.", with a Scarlet O'Hara accent complete with the "I think I may have the vapors" back of the wrist to her forehead touch.

It still makes me cringe.
Ooooo, sorry, man. Okay, I'll try to refrain from using it here in respect of your trigger. That really does stink.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/14/09 09:04 PM
So... his trigger means more than mine? cry


Just kiddin', if everyone stopped using every phrase that got my back up, it'd be a quiet world. stickout

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/14/09 09:06 PM
Nah, say it all you want if it means something and works for you.

It's just funny that the same line can be used to great extent by BS's for personal recovery and by waywards to dodge any accountability of their actions.

Actually DD's Scarlet O'Hara Wayzilla imitation is pretty darn funny.
I'll just refrain on this forum. IRL, my boss uses it, my supervisor uses it, I use it, my coworkers use it...

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/15/09 03:31 AM
Quote
Any news on the job front, Guy Smiley. I saw the news this morning and they said how many people your company is laying off. Kinda scary.
Thanks for asking, Fox.

What is.

Today many of my favorite co-workers were told their positions are being eliminated. But wait, there's more. From the remaining 17 of us, there are 8 jobs going forward. I don't know whether I'll be one of them, and I'm not sure whether I want to be one of them.

If the job market were better, I would probably welcome being laid off, because I'll get a decent severance and could probably use the change. At the moment, not so much. We'll see.

Not a great day.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/15/09 03:57 AM
I've been laid off a few times, and somehow things work out. Unemployment doesn't pay much, but it helps keep you from starving.

Will pray for you....
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/15/09 07:33 AM
I'll be fine, CL, but thanks. I'm so well off I shouldn't even complain. I admit that I've gotten a bit used to it, though.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/15/09 01:10 PM
Job market here isn't all that much better SD, but I do have a few friends at Lilly in Indy if you're at all interested in the frozen midwest if worse should come to worst.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/15/09 05:27 PM
Thanks, James!

I'd have to change my screen name.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/15/09 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Thanks, James!

I'd have to change my screen name.

And lose your Chargers jersey... a dude could get lynched 'round here for less..
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/15/09 09:30 PM
Hey SD!

Don't feel alone with the job sitch! My company is 'restructuring' as well. Last Friday 20 high level mgrs were let go, and that was just the tip of the iceberg! Today, Drac is fearing for his job, and I am a bit uncertain of mine.

You have absolutely the right attitude about it. Count your blessings and know that no matter what may come, you will be fine.

While I love the Midwest,,,,,today i would not recommend it. 9 degree high today in Columbus! It was ZERO with -15 windchill when I left St. Louis this morning!!!


BURRR!!!!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/16/09 07:11 AM
Record lows where I'm from in Illinois. Brrr.

A friend and I sneaked out of work this afternoon and drove to the beach for a walk. We saw whales. And dolphins.

Stay warm, everyone.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/16/09 01:26 PM
Jealousy ensues...

I want a beach!... and temps above 0
Posted By: catperson Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/16/09 01:50 PM
Houston still has thousands of jobs...

And we have a beach, if you stretch the use of the word a little. smile

I saw a car pull up once in Galveston from North Dakota, I think, and the whole family got out and stood on the Seawall and looked out at our brown sand and browner water, and the look on their faces...if I didn't feel so sorry for them driving all that way, it would have been hysterical.
Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/16/09 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by catperson
Houston still has thousands of jobs...

And we have a beach, if you stretch the use of the word a little. smile

I saw a car pull up once in Galveston from North Dakota, I think, and the whole family got out and stood on the Seawall and looked out at our brown sand and browner water, and the look on their faces...if I didn't feel so sorry for them driving all that way, it would have been hysterical.

WOW!!

In Louisiana, we go to Galveston cause that's where the beaches are nicer rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao

Louisiana, where the marsh mud meets the ocean :RollieEyes:
Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/16/09 04:08 PM
Today, we had a departmental meeting....my employer 's revenues are running about $81,560,000 PER MONTH below budget. I work in state government. If things don't turn around soon, it's gonna get uglier. My department was able to cut about 15% from the budget without losing any people. But, unless things improve, we could be looking at losing people. I'm starting to worry. Single mom with two teenagers....not good!
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/17/09 03:26 AM
Well, my sales are way down from last year at this time, and I thought they were low last year!! I'm looking at the possiblilty of closing my doors if things don't pick up.

I won't even get unemployment. Bummer.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/17/09 03:21 PM
Chai & SD:

Someone asked me why I do taxes...

Thare are only two sure things in life: "Death and Taxes"

And I don't like dead bodies..... :MrEEk: shocked

LG
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/21/09 01:04 PM
Quote
Someone asked me why I do taxes...

Thare are only two sure things in life: "Death and Taxes"

And I don't like dead bodies.....

LG

LOL! Lucky for me that there will also always be 'trash'! ha!

SD, what's up mi amigo? How about an update?
Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/21/09 03:00 PM
Chai, am I gonna need to do another yarn run next month....and bring my dd to change diapers?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/22/09 07:42 PM
Bug-bombed!

Things are okay. Work is a drag because of the impending layoffs. The music is playing, and we know that there are way fewer chairs than co-workers, but it will be a few weeks before we know exactly who's in and who's out. It's stressful, obviously, but I know that I'm not going to go hungry or have to live under an overpass or anything like that, so I try to keep a healthy perspective.

The drop-off issue with the SCQ is still hanging despite my having asked whether I should go ahead and schedule mediation. I saw my IC the other day and read her the whole exchange, and she politely wondered whether it might just be easier to go ahead and do the exchanges the way the SCQ wants. (Calm down, Fox, I'm not going to.) I speculated that maybe I was making such a big deal out of the exchange thing because it gave me an opportunity to say some of the things about POSOM and the affair that I've been wanting to say but haven't.

I'm still not sure what I'll do. I'm not going to back down on going to POSOM's house. I might be willing to give up the other Sunday exchange if it's what the kids want. The issue won't get forced for another couple of weeks, so I'm letting it simmer.

I went on another date over the weekend--this time with a woman recommended by a friend. All of the dates have been really fun--nice and relaxed. I think I'm doing well so far: I would be happy to go out with any of them again but don't really see any of them leading to a serious relationship.
Posted By: coachswife Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/22/09 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
. I saw my IC the other day and read her the whole exchange, and she politely wondered whether it might just be easier to go ahead and do the exchanges the way the SCQ wants. (Calm down, Fox, I'm not going to.) I speculated that maybe I was making such a big deal out of the exchange thing because it gave me an opportunity to say some of the things about POSOM and the affair that I've been wanting to say but haven't.

I read your thread although I rarely comment but I wondered this as well......
Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/22/09 08:09 PM
Hi SD,

Quote
I speculated that maybe I was making such a big deal out of the exchange thing because it gave me an opportunity to say some of the things about POSOM and the affair that I've been wanting to say but haven't.

...if so, SD, would you say it was worth it?

Quote
...All of the dates have been really fun--nice and relaxed. I think I'm doing well so far...

grin
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/22/09 09:10 PM
Quote
...if so, SD, would you say it was worth it?

I don't know. Maybe. My drive to say them has definitely reduced. It made her snarly mean, which was completely expected. I don't know whether any of the "Continue to respect how much I hate POSOM, and things need not be antagonistic between us" message got through.

Yesterday morning she sent me a text message that DD5 had a cold and should stay home from school, and she said she would see if my mom (who is visiting in a rental condo nearby) could take DD5 early (Wed being my day with the kids). I was already on my way to the school, and I knew the SCQ would need to be dropping off DS9, so I called her cell (maybe a first) and told her I could go ahead and take DD5 at the school. When I found them in the school, the SCQ was very chatty, wanting to tell me all the sick kid details. I was polite but avoided eye contact as much as possible.

Like I said, I'm not going to back down on going to his house. It will make me too angry--having to drive the forty minutes each way. Too big a trigger.

Thanks for dropping in, CW. I value your perspective.
Posted By: coachswife Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/22/09 09:55 PM
You know in my sitch when I remarried (not to OM) and moved I agreed to make the drive. It's been almost four years and I still make the drive to where he lives so that the kids can stay in the same school. He was basically like "You moved- you make the drive" She should be flattered that you're even willing to meet her halfway! I would fall over in gratitude if my exh was willing to meet me half the way. He will on occasion- like holiday or such but it's few and far between. I hated it at first but I've gotten used to it. Plus my current H and mother in law help me during my weeks on pick up time when the traffic is the worst.

Have you thought about how that will impact any sports that they decide to participate in? (not sure if that's been in your thread). Where will that be? Where she lives or where you live?

Posted By: TheRoad Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/22/09 10:18 PM
"I'm not going to back down on going to his house. It will make me too angry--having to drive the forty minutes each way. Too big a trigger."


I'm sticking to my guns on this one with you.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/23/09 07:59 AM
Quote
Where will that be? Where she lives or where you live?
Where the kids and I live. I've been careful to refer to this place as "our house" or "your house" to them. They only refer to the other place as "POSOM's house." Their school is here, and their sports are here, too.

DD5 starts softball next week, and I'll be coaching her team. I've been assistant coaching most of DS9's baseball teams, but now I'm managing. It should be a blast--five and six year old girls learning to play softball.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/23/09 12:09 PM
SD,

Hmmmm, interesting exchange at school. Of course I have to say that she probably took it as Drac would,,,,that your courteous behavior means that 'all is forgiven' and that you are willing to be more accomodating & friendly! YIKES!

And, of course, you did something that made HER life easier,,,,and we know that for waywards, THAT is what life is about!

Stick to your guns on the exchange. It will work out.

Quote
DD5 starts softball next week, and I'll be coaching her team. I've been assistant coaching most of DS9's baseball teams, but now I'm managing. It should be a blast--five and six year old girls learning to play softball

What FUN! I'm so anxious for DD to start playing again this year. Of course, we are a few months behind you due to weather.

Hope you have a great weekend!
Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/23/09 07:48 PM

Quote
Like I said, I'm not going to back down on going to his house. It will make me too angry--having to drive the forty minutes each way. Too big a trigger.

That's fine, SD... and if SCQ doesn't come up with a counter-proposal that you are OK with, then continue on as planned and seek mediator's help to you find an 'acceptable' solution to both of you.

Quote
Hmmmm, interesting exchange at school. Of course I have to say that she probably took it as Drac would,,,,that your courteous behavior means that 'all is forgiven' and that you are willing to be more accomodating & friendly! YIKES!

Yep...I get the same impression when dealing with WS...always about them :RollieEyes:....but really, MY motivation is usually to make life easier for the...boys!

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/26/09 07:06 PM
Triggery morning.

My mom told me yesterday that DS9 has expressed some interest in counseling, that he's having some trouble with the living at POSOM's house. It sounds like they are trying to get him to call POSOM's daughters sisters/stepsisters and POSOM's brothers uncles. This fits with what I have observed from DD5--she seems to have been coached to call them sisters.

Then I get this from the SCQ:

The parenting plan isn't there because either of us like the schedule. It is the best we can do for the children under the circumstances. Keeping the weekend schedule like it is is I believe is not the best for the children. My beliefs from the last time we went to mediation have not changed. You may like it but it is not the best for them.

Since you are refusing to abide by our previous agreement of who ever has the kids drops them off at the others house, for now until we come to some of agreement we can exchange the kids at the Park and Ride at La Costa exit from I-5. That exit is about half way between Del Mar Heights Road and Oceanside Blvd along I-5. If there is a park at that exit then let me know. If you cannot agree to the La Costa Park and Ride then the original agreement is still in place.


It's tempting to completely unload on her. Or take her back to mediation and totally destroy her there. The exit with the park is two miles closer to my house.

I was already talking with my mom last night that it would probably be easier to go with full weekends and avoid this BS. At the same time, I really want to tear her a new one.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/26/09 07:18 PM
For head-clearing purposes:

The agreement we had is irrelevant--it was made before you moved an absurd distance away from where the children live and go to school into a house that is morally reprehensible. To think that our original agreement would still apply is naive on your part. You're the one who changed the situation. You're lucky I'm willing to meet you halfway.

I can't believe you have the nerve to invoke the kids' best interest. Exactly how is it in their best interest to commute to school via 25 miles of California freeway?

I understand you have been asking the children to refer to POSOM's daughters as sisters and his brothers as uncles. Are you and POSOM married? If not, this is inappropriate. Of course, I guess it's no more inappropriate than moving the kids in with someone to whom you are not married, or leaving your family for selfish reasons, or lying to your husband and children, so why should anyone expect you to start being a decent mother now?
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/26/09 08:23 PM

skeptical

rant2 grumble

:twobyfour:

mad

uhuh

Sometimes I'd just like to ask the entitled POS waywards, "Who in the holy hell do you think you are? WHY do you think you have all the power to TELL a BS what is or isn't going to happen? LOOK at the choices you have made. Can you REALLY tell me these choices were in the best interest of the children?"

and finally

"Shut the hell up until an actual RATIONAL thought can be formed in your head."

And REALLY!!!???? "sisters and uncles?" Married or not, that is NOT okay until the CHILD makes the choice voluntarily.

I know this post was probably not really helpful to you. I'm sure you already knew what side of the fence I was sitting on.

I'm debating on whether to shove a hand grenade up WxH's buttoosky with a sherriff's sale of his possession and emails from you xWW remind me so much of Babs, it gets the fire burning again to make their lives as miserable as possible.

Fox

Posted By: believer Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/26/09 08:47 PM
Sheesh, SDGuy, I live on Oceanside Blvd. Does POSOM live here? I'll go beat his [censored].
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/26/09 08:53 PM
I knew what to expect from you, Fox, and today I was looking for it. I'm pretty pissed off. Tired from this crap and the will-I-Have-A-Job stress and having a persistent, nasty cold--it seems to have lowered the guard rails on the high road.

I'm really wanting to blister her at the moment.

How about

"Since you are so concerned about what is in the best interest of the children, please explain to me

how moving them into the house of a man to whom you are not married is in their best interest?

how moving them 25 miles away from their home and school is in their best interest?

how expecting them to refer to POSOM's relatives using terms that are inappropriate is in their best interest?

No?

Then maybe you should shut the [censored] up about what is in their best interest."

So [censored] blind to what really matters.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/26/09 09:33 PM
Quote
Then maybe you should shut the [censored] up about what is in their best interest."

So [censored] blind to what really matters.

Right there with ya, Guy Smiley.


The continued stupidity angers me to no end.

And the fact that I can do absolutely nothing about it, frustrates me to no end.

Some days, I can shrug it off.... other days, I feel like shoving it down his throat.

Time for a massage, my friend?

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/26/09 10:18 PM
Quote
Some days, I can shrug it off.... other days, I feel like shoving it down his throat.
Yeah, I'm usually pretty good at shrugging it off, but today seems different. I suspect I'm channeling some of the job frustration (8000 layoffs wasn't enough. Let's buy another huge company so we can have even MORE layoffs!) toward the SCQ. I don't know about you guys, but I think she more than deserves it.

Quote
Time for a massage, my friend?
Good call, amigo. Yoga tonight, massage tomorrow.

I'm no good at shrugging. I don't like my shoulder's too close to my ears... smirk

I'd have a really hard time not listing the facts and sending them to SCQ. I'm having a hard time reading this board this week, with Chrysalis, and Not2, not to mention Chai's struggles, and then you throw in the wayward's stoopidity. Grrrrrrrr...

AAAAAAAAAAAAAGH! Calgon, take me away.

MY back is tense just reading this stuff. mad



Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/26/09 11:17 PM
SDG,

I don't know where you stand in terms of visitation, but I would be inclined to file for primary custody with visitation for her because of the distances involved. Making the kids drive that long is a pain for the kids.

I also strongly recommend that if you don't wish to go with the exchange on Sundays thing that you switch to an arrangement where you don't see the ex.

You could easily do this by moving to a 50/50 arrangement where all the exchanges and drop offs happen as school.

So you could have the kids on Monday and Tuesday, she could have them Wed, Thursday, and you alternate weekends.

All pick ups and drop offs are at the schools.

Driving to POSOM's house is completely out of the question.

But you have the advantage in a custody fight for the sole reason that the girls are already in that school and established there. The court would be inclined to keep the kids in their current school and her moving away gives YOU the advantage.

You could file for a modification of the custody arrangement where you're given primary custody on the grounds that her move to POSOM's house in not in the kid's best interests because of the long driving distances they have to endure now because she moved for HER interests and not those of her kids.

Keep a few things in mind when dealing with her:

She now has a mixed family with step kids. There is no greater indicator of future divorce than mixed families. This ranks above infidelity as a precursor and sign of divorce to come.

Your daughter is 9. She's just a few years away from the hormones and moods of a teenage girl and God help them when she starts expressing how she feels about POSOM because it's coming.

Odds are that the girls will WANT to live with you as time goes on because they know that you are home and they don't have to deal with step brothers and sisters and they get 100% of your attention in your home.

I'm inclined to tell you to file for a modification of custody and request primary custody on the grounds of her move. The fact that you're in their school district works hugely in your favor.

When did this move happen?
Um Papa...


...about this

Originally Posted by Papa
Your daughter is 9. She's just a few years away from the hormones and moods of a teenage girl and God help them when she starts expressing how she feels about POSOM because it's coming.

um, yeah, his SON is the eldest. I sure hope his hormones are okay wink

Sorry, that made me giggle...
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/26/09 11:29 PM
SD,

I just read up on some of the stuff with this move. You could hold her in contempt for not informing you with 24 hours of notice.

A move like that can be considered a significant change in circumstances and give you an opening and a reason to file for a modification.

I also read up some more and realized I was wrong about your 9 year old and that he's a boy.

Well, sons with hormones will certainly clash in their teen years with idiot POSOM of no relation. Seriously, I would make his life or any step parents life an absolute he77 if they were an affair partner that split up my home. I was in my 20s when I dealt with my dad and I never spoke to his OW wife. I rooted him on when he started cheating on her. (The only time in my life I rooted for a cheater. I wanted her to get a taste of her own medicine. I've since kicked my dad's butt and told him to not do it anymore with any future woman.)

But you have some legal openings here and they work in your favor.

Go for primary. Save your kids from the drives.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/26/09 11:40 PM
Quote
I also strongly recommend that if you don't wish to go with the exchange on Sundays thing that you switch to an arrangement where you don't see the ex.

You could easily do this by moving to a 50/50 arrangement where all the exchanges and drop offs happen as school.

So you could have the kids on Monday and Tuesday, she could have them Wed, Thursday, and you alternate weekends.
Heh. This is what the SCQ has been pushing. We have that schedule except for two remaining Sunday exchanges a month. She wants to eliminate the Sunday exchange and have only full weekends, and I'm now inclined to go that way.

But the thought of filing for primary custody. . . wow. Based on the change that she instituted. It would make POSOM's character relevant, I would think. And the living situation. Tempting. Just to accelerate the visit by the karma bus. Probably won't, of course, but it's fun to think about.

I know the thing with POSOM will fall apart. On my last date, I was set up with a divorced lady by one of my neighbors. She was really nice--smart, from the Midwest, attractive. She's divorced as well, with a 3-year old son. Clearly she loves being a mom and has basically complete custody. I think it's what she wanted from the marriage--she met her ex via Perfectmatch, which means they weren't married all that long, and it was his third marriage and fourth child. She said she understood the risks (had a prenup, etc).

The relevant part was her talking about her parents. She described how she gets along great with her dad but would prefer to get the visits with her mother over with quickly. Then she told me that her mother cheated on and left her father when she was ten years old. Then her mother's OM cheated on her mother (gasp!), and thus her mother is now on her third marriage. "Not a great role model," she said, "but my dad . . . my dad is my rock."

I told her that I hope my daughter says something like that about me someday.
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/27/09 03:02 AM
SDG,

Run it by a lawyer. You have enough grounds to file for primary and corner your argument on her move away and the drive she is now forcing the kids to endure.

I can tell you that that was a big factor in my case and was one of the deciding factors for the kid's attorney. She recommended the current arrangement to minimize the driving for the kids.

I messed a few things up when dealing with her and they could have proven to make the difference.

She was either mis-informed or misled about DD's school and the fact that it's been around for many years. She thought it was a new one.

That might have made a difference in my favor since MD has now been named the number one school system in the nation.

But you actually live in their district and are close to their school and this is HUGE.

I can also tell you that a parenting coordinator is sensitive to your feelings as the betrayed and will not understand her insistance on bringing POSOM around you.

It's worth at least talking to a lawyer about. You can argue contempt about notifying you before her move and can also argue the fact that you know your kids are having problems with POSOM's house.

What are their living arrangements there? Do they have their own rooms?

I also hope that someday your kids say the same things that you heard from your date. I'm hoping for that too.

Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/27/09 12:46 PM
SD,

Oh my, how the wayward puke makes me so rant2!!

I'm thinking a trip to the coast to bring some :twobyfour: to the SCQ would do us all some good! grumble

Despite dealing with Drac's wayward crapola when it comes to life in general, and reading about so many here, I think the one thing that never ceases to amaze me is how they can be so incredibly selfish when it comes to the kids. :RollieEyes: dontknow rant2 :crosseyedcrazy:

SD, while I can't say for sure what I think you 'should' or shouldn't do - - I can say that I know without a doubt that the one thing you HAVE ALWAYS and WILL ALWAYS do is make your decisions based on what you know to be right for the KIDS FIRST.

There is no doubt in my mind that you will hear words like those of your date someday from your own kids. As will Pom, SL, Foxxy, James, Eph, Queenie, even Chai, and so many others. Just look at Chris and his DD21. They DO know who is the rock now and who will always be there for them.

Nothing is more important than that. Nothing SCQ does will ever take that away from you.

hug SD hug

If you like your attorney and trust his/her judgement, it might be worth a brief consultation to evaluate the modification options.

Hang in there Guy! smile

Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/28/09 04:39 PM
Hey SD. Sorry I missed all this.

SCQ and Wayzilla have become great parents haven’t they?

Telling them to call POSOM’s daughters their sisters? How twisted, confusing and cruel that is. Particularly to DD5. Even if SCQ and POSOM marry this would be wrong and unnecessary.

Then the lecture from her about doing what is best for the kids? What a Ho.

None of that would go down well in mediation.

If anything your rant was accurate, defensible and restrained.

Just keep being a great Dad. Don’t be surprised if not far down the road one or both of the kids start asking for full time status with you. It happens all the time.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/28/09 06:06 PM
Thanks, guys.

I'm going to agree to the full weekends. I talked with DS9, and he doesn't really care about full weekends vs the current schedule, and it probably will make life easier. At the moment, I'm trying to restrain myself from including a "don't talk to me about what's in the kids' best interest" rant.

A lengthy cold, the ongoing job insecurity (another couple of weeks before we know one way or the other), and scaling back the dosage on meds has made me twitchy lately. I'm reminded of Lloyd Bridges in Airplane: Looks like I picked the wrong weekend to stop sniffing glue.

First softball practice for DD5 and her coach tonight!

ETA: Thanks for the thoughts on seeking additional custody. I think I have a good enough case to pursue if that's what I want to do. At the moment, I don't. I need the time without them, and they want and need time with their mother. As soon as I feel like they want to spend more time at home, I'll pursue it.
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/28/09 06:23 PM
Quote
First softball practice for DD5 and her coach tonight!

Don't make them cry.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/28/09 06:33 PM
Hey SD,

Trying to catch up on threads a little today between feedings, fussiness, etc. The city is in a snow/ice emergency today and just about everything is closed.

Man, all I can say is I hate this woman. She is about the most conceited wayward around here. She practically dares you to cross her so that she can cut you off at the knees.

I don't know, but I think I would be just about ready to unload on her. I liked your "wish list" email reply. Sorry to say though, for her it would be an open invitation to a major war. I don't think you can win with her.

I can't wait until POSOM cheats on her. It will happen.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/28/09 07:43 PM
With a great deal of effort, I managed to cut this from the email I just sent the SCQ telling her that I'm willing to switch to full weekends.

Quote
"The agreement" says nothing about who drops off the kids where. Even if it had, that all changed when you moved an absurd distance away from where the kids live and go to school. To think that I'm going to drive 25 miles to drop off the kids at a place I find morally reprehensible when you're the one who instigated the change is naive--I would never have agreed to that unless ordered by a judge. You're lucky I even offered halfway.

So, no, I didn't send that, but I hated to waste all the articulated venom and decided to post it here.

You know, Chai, she wasn't always this way. If ever. People who know/knew her would be shocked at what she is and how she behaves. Some of it is revealing true colors that we didn't know were there, but most of it is the result of infidelity fog.

Waywards suck.
Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/28/09 07:54 PM
I would now like to reinterpret the smilies given to us by our illustrious moderators:

how we feel about waynerds - puke

waynerds writhing in agony after we stomp them good & hard - rotflmao

us stomping on the idiot waynerds - dance2

waynerd deep in fog of selfishness - grumble

waynerds when they realize we don't need them - faint
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/28/09 09:59 PM
SDG,

Sent you an email offline. Let me know if you're up for my proposed plan and we can get the wheels rolling.

pom
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/29/09 06:07 AM
Haven't seen it, POM. Did you send it to sdguy0038@yahoo.com? I.e., two zeroes?
Posted By: allemotions Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/29/09 08:12 AM
Okay Cinderella, the smilies made me laugh, you totally got it!

SDGuy, can't believe all the crap you have to put up with just to be an involved parent....I'm from divorced parents and at least when I was young my dad was very involved, it meant so much....
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/29/09 12:49 PM
SDG,

I had a brainfart and mixed threads up in my head. The script is so uniform that some stories get mixed together from time to time. I have an opportunity to get POSOM in PSUBIKER's sitch arrested and for a minute I mixed him up with you.

So sorry.

All straight now!
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/29/09 01:57 PM
Hey SD!

Glad you took the effort to make the 'edit' to your email. While right on the mark, it would have been wasted on the SCQ. Good decision.

Quote
Don’t be surprised if not far down the road one or both of the kids start asking for full time status with you. It happens all the time.

Totally agree with this. I can see this,,,or something close to it coming in the future with Ladybug. I was trying to reassure her the other night that Drac DOES love her. Her reply, "well, he sure doens't ACT like it,,,,,,,,,and he doesn't love me as much as YOU love me, Mommy." It broke my heart for her. Nothing I could say would sway her from what she perceives, and Drac has not a single clue - just like the SCQ.

Take it easy on your self, dear. Especially with backing down on the meds, you need to be extra kind to yourself. Did you get that massage?

So, how did practice go??

Oh, and Chris, just ask Ladybug what I've taught her,,,,,

There is NO CRYING IN SOFTBALL!
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/29/09 07:18 PM
Quote
Oh, and Chris, just ask Ladybug what I've taught her,,,,,

There is NO CRYING IN SOFTBALL!


We finally won last night. I thought I was gonna cry.


Quote
So, how did practice go??

Yeah, how did it go? Were you more captivating than passing butterflies and dandelions?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/29/09 11:49 PM
Quote
I'm from divorced parents and at least when I was young my dad was very involved, it meant so much....
Thanks for that, AE. I was recalling that the SCQ didn't even attend DD5's very first soccer game. Softball will probably be the same way, since that Saturday is with me.

I just wish someone could and would tell her what a rotten mother she's being.

Quote
and mixed threads up in my head.
No worries, POM. I should be so lucky that you could have my POSOM arrested. . . .

Quote
Don’t be surprised if not far down the road one or both of the kids start asking for full time status with you. It happens all the time.
I won't be surprised, and as soon as it happens, I'll start fighting for them. I'm not sure what the laws say in California about at what age their choices matter.

Quote
Did you get that massage?
Yes, and it was bliss.

Quote
Were you more captivating than passing butterflies and dandelions?
It went pretty well. We started off with the basics ("Who knows where first base is?"), and I think I did a good job of keeping them engaged. One of the moms or friends of moms had a puppy nearby, and I didn't lose all of them to puppy admiration, which I take as a good sign. There was plenty of dirt fascination, but not when they were supposed to be doing something else (for the most part), and dirt fascination is to be expected. I already mentally started separating them into 'normal dirt distraction' and 'extreme dirt fascination.'

We've got one more practice before the first game, so there's plenty of time to work on turning the double play, hitting to the opposite field, and throwing to the cutoff man. Ha ha. "After we hit the ball, what do we do? What do we do with the bat? Do we drop it or do we throw it? Right . . . we drop it."

I polled the girls for possible team names and got Red Rubies, Red Roses, Red Butterflies, Red Shirts, Red Balls, Red Rock Stars, and Red Softball Players. In a fit of madness, I tried to get them to vote. Suffice it to say that we'll be deciding some other way.

Quote
There is NO CRYING IN SOFTBALL!
The first time the other team gets one of my girls out (whether coincidentally or intentionally), I'm going to be ready for tears.

It's going to be such a blast.
I vote for THE RED RUBY ROSED FLUTTERBY ROCKSTARS WEARING RED SHIRTS SOFTBALL PLAYERS.

Say that five times fast wink

Originally Posted by Guy
Right . . . we drop it."

I'm still working on getting DS to stop throwing the ball at me when he's trying to tag me out. People are going to start thinking he beats me smirk Good thing he's got the whole 'drop the bat' thing down. Holy hell, I'd be a bloody mess...
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/30/09 06:16 PM
Quote
In a fit of madness, I tried to get them to vote.

Benevolent dictatorships work best.


The Ravenous Rabid Retching Red Razorbacks......with long nasty yellow (or red) sharp drippy tusks.....and ratty red fur....with icky patches of mange......and stuff.


Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/31/09 02:38 AM
Quote
Waywards suck.
cry mad grumble rant2



Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/31/09 03:17 AM
Originally Posted by allemotions
Okay Cinderella, the smilies made me laugh, you totally got it!

grin I aim to please! grin
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/02/09 02:21 AM
Just doing some quick drive-bys tonight. I'm checking in and checking up. Keep the news flashes coming....
Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/02/09 04:15 AM
I'm feeling very cry

Those refs gave away the Super Bowl!


Posted By: Lexxxy Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/02/09 04:15 PM
I vote for the Red Rubies -- and at your next practice you should DEFINITELY get some red sequins to apply to gloves, jerseys, hats and bats!

I think you should also get matching hair bows with contrasting colors!

Most importantly have you got the treat schedule done???

(former coach, I can give you LOTS of tips!)

Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/02/09 04:31 PM
Hey! I think it is time you purchase a BEDAZZLER!!!!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/02/09 05:18 PM
I think it's going to be Red Rubies for the reason you mentioned (currently 4 votes rubies, 1 vote rock stars, 1 vote roses). As soon as we get the visors, we'll ruby them up.

Quote
Most importantly have you got the treat schedule done???
Mercifully, we have an excellent team mom. She's already hard at work on the treat schedule as well as the banner. It's great.

Quote
Hey! I think it is time you purchase a BEDAZZLER!!!!
Good idea! That should be in the suggested list of coach's equipment. Quick-cold packs, tissues, Bedazzler, scorebook, bucket.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/02/09 05:23 PM
rotflmao

What a great dad you are! Your DD will remember these days for the rest of her life.

High five, amigo. hurray

Fox
Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/02/09 06:12 PM
the Rose Red Ruby Rockstars

Personally, I think 5 year old girls would like the Ruby Rockstars!

And, they need red shoe laces!


Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/02/09 08:36 PM
Red shoe laces . . . great idea!
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/02/09 09:06 PM
I know! I know!!

Guy Smiley could french braid each one of their hair with a red ribbon going throught it!

laugh
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/02/09 10:08 PM
Would a pony tail using a red rubber band count? I could add the ribbon to that. Another good idea. I'll pick up some red hair ribbon.

I haven't learned the French braid yet. DD5 won't sit still that long, anyway.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/02/09 10:09 PM
Red carpet. yeah, red carpet at their bench.....



grin
Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/02/09 10:24 PM
Red bat bags!

Red batting helmets!




I CAN FRENCH BRAID! I LOVE ROAD TRIPS!! I AM AVAILABLE TO BE YOUR FRENCH BRAID CONSULTANT! I COULD EVEN BRAID IN RED RIBBON!


You provide the airline tickets!
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/02/09 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Would a pony tail using a red rubber band count? I could add the ribbon to that. Another good idea. I'll pick up some red hair ribbon.

I haven't learned the French braid yet. DD5 won't sit still that long, anyway.

Here ya go! Doncha just luv YouTube?

Video on how to french braid hair
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/02/09 11:12 PM
Yeah, no way DD5 would sit still that long, but thanks for the link, PM. I think I could do that. Just as a pride thing one of these days.

Thanks for the offer, Cinders. I'll see what the team budget has available.

I had another idea for a team name: the Red Bulls. There could be a team sponsorship deal. We could put in a pre-game ritual: each girl drinks a Red Bull before we take the field. That would pretty much guarantee I won't be managing next year, I would think.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/03/09 01:08 PM

SDGuy on French Braiding a whole team full of hair... with cute widdle ribbons..

Originally Posted by sdguy038
I think I could do that. Just as a pride thing one of these days.


skeptical


SD... I'm afraid we're going to have to pull your dude card.


Quote
I had another idea for a team name: the Red Bulls. There could be a team sponsorship deal. We could put in a pre-game ritual: each girl drinks a Red Bull before we take the field. That would pretty much guarantee I won't be managing next year, I would think.

You too with the 'next season' speculations already? Eesh.. one game at a time.. you and Chris both.. c'mon fellas!


grin
Posted By: dgs53 Re: SDGuy's Plan B - 02/03/09 05:34 PM
Hey SD,how have you been? I have been reading your thread for awhile now and I had to get in a word about french braids and baseball. WoW! What a combination. I love to french braid hair, if I lived closer I would braid the whole team! grin I think it's so neat that you are coaching DD5's team! Having met her, I bet it's a real hoot. Both of your kids are so great. Chris and I couldn't get over how well behaved they are and how personable! hurray KUDOS to you DAD! I think SCQ is a real POS of a mother for taking them 25 miles from their school and from you. I believe it was Chris that said that it wouldn't be surprising if they one day said they want to be with you full time. I find it so hard to believe that any parent could abandon their child the way SCQ and Wayzilla have. :twobyfour: I sure hope the karma bus comes to both of them in spades!! Well I just wanted to say hi and let you know that my french braiding skills are quite good! dance2 How's the dating going?? Sounds like you are having fun - you certainly deserve it! Take care, have a great day!
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/03/09 05:45 PM
Quote
each girl drinks a Red Bull before we take the field

and the parents in the stand will wonder why their little darlings are running around the bases TWICE every time they bat.

rotflmao
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/03/09 09:31 PM
Hey, DGS. Thanks for stopping by! And for the kind words.

Quote
and the parents in the stand will wonder why their little darlings are running around the bases TWICE every time they bat.
I was going to send the suggestion out to the parents as a joke, but I'm not sure they'll get that I'm joking.

Quote
How's the dating going??
I'm kind of on a hiatus. Work has been such a drag lately that I don't feel good enough to put in the energy required. We've been in this limbo--17 of us knowing that we're to be condensed into a group of 6--for three weeks now with one more week to go. Probably. Then we get helpful emails about where the boxes are and reminders to clean out our offices. It's really great for morale.

The first couple of weeks were merely lousy, but it's gotten really bad lately. My depression is acting up a bit--I woke this morning from an infidelidream. My fuse for SCQ-related stupidity is much shorter now. The counseling conflict seems to be resurfacing

All things considered, I'm really doing pretty well. It's just that there are a lot of things to consider at the moment.
Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/03/09 09:38 PM
LOL!!! knowing 5 year olds, maybe the team's name should be the Red Rovers
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/03/09 10:32 PM
KNOCK IT OFF!!!!
hug Goin' out to you, Guy Smiley

Fox
Posted By: dgs53 Re: SDGuy's Plan B - 02/03/09 10:40 PM
SD, I'm really sorry about your job. frown It's really scary out there. Chris is worried about his job and mine is not secure as this is my first year at this school district. As if there isn't enough to worry about. My DD17 can't find a job and Chris's DD21 may be getting laid off. Not right, I sure hope our new president gets a chance to make some of the changes he wants to make. SO, enjoy the positive things about your life right now - your wonderful kids!! I think the "Red Skirts" would be a cute name for the team. grin But what do I know! Take care and think positively.....life is good!
Posted By: cinderella Re: SDGuy's Plan B - 02/03/09 10:43 PM
redflag Do not name the team the Red Flags! redflag
Hey Guy. Sorry to hear about all the job stress. I have a friend who worked for a CMO right next door to my work and they were bought out and 'consolidated', meaning lots of people lost their jobs and those that they were gracious enough to allow to keep their jobs had a choice of whether to move to Connecticut or not. She said the last month prior to their operations closing was excruciating.

I sure did pick a fine time to wanna move smirk If I find a job, who's to say that I won't suffer the 'last one in, first one out' syndrome if the new site has budget cuts. Oy!
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/04/09 11:10 AM
Hey SD!

I must throw in the idea of red batting gloves,,,,,cause you KNOW as well as I do that there is some parent out there that is going to buy a 5 year old a batting glove! rotflmao (seriously! they will! )

I totally understand where you are coming from on the work/morale issue. We just entered Week 3 of Pins and Needles - Will I have a Job by the End of the Week at my work. I've lost SO many good friends and co-workers across the country. Depressing is the only word that can apply.

Hang in there. This, too, shall pass.

So, when you are ready to share, tell us what's up with the "counseling conflict" raising it's ugly head again. Or is it just typical SCQ raising HER ugly head again,,,,and this time it's about counseling again?

I'm not surprised. Lord knows that the LAST thing she is going to want is for her kids to be able to verbalize to a third party what a crappy thing she has done to them with the move & insisting that they call the wayward children their sisters! puke rant2

hug SD hug

Oh, and you could skip the whole "Red" name and go with Ladybugs! They are red, too! flirt

Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/04/09 04:09 PM
Here, we have no idea if or when we may have to lose some people. No idea. It all depends on state revenues/tax figures for the month of December. Maybe a couple more months to come. Pins and needles......

Yeah, Ladybugs would be a cute team name but the other teams might get all excited about getting to squash the Ladybugs.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 06:26 PM
Quote
So, when you are ready to share, tell us what's up with the "counseling conflict" raising it's ugly head again. Or is it just typical SCQ raising HER ugly head again,,,,and this time it's about counseling again?
I think I posted something a while ago about my mom having talked with DS9, who talked a bit about how things are at POSOM's house. He mentioned being encouraged to refer to POSOM's brother etc as Uncle so as not to confuse POSOM's kids. He was clearly uncomfortable with it and got emotional when talking with my mom. She asked him if he would like to have someone to talk with about these kinds of things, that it's okay, that I have a counselor I talk with and think it's helpful. He mentioned a name--one of his best friends at school is the son of the school counselor--even mentioned that he would be the same counselor at his school next year. I followed it up later and asked him if he would like to talk to friend's dad. He said yes.

Given that he is a stuffer like his mother and uncomfortable with his emotions, I think that this is as big a cry for help as we will ever hear from this kid. So I sent this to the SCQ:

"DS9 has expressed an interest in getting some counseling. He specifically mentioned School Counselor (Friend's dad), who is the school counselor. As you know, I've been concerned for some time now about the children getting some help with their issues, so I definitely want to see this happen.

We both have to agree and sign some paperwork. I assume that we can get it from the school.

Much of this comes from a conversation DS9 had with my mom. She will be happy to fill you in on the details if you're interested.

Please let me know how you want to proceed with this."


I got this in reply

SCQ: When I have some time to discuss it with DS9 I will let you know.

Yesterday, the softball team mom sent out the snack schedule (which didn't include me or the other coach) and a simplified team roster. When the team mom had showed it to me, I asked her not to list us as SDG & SCQ, and so she left the SCQ off the roster.

This came in soon after.

SCQ: How dare you leave me off the schedule for DD5's softball. I don't think for a minute that you didn't have a hand in it.

You are more of a JACK [censored] than I originally thought.


followed two minutes later with a reply to the counseling email chain.

SCQ: Before I agree to anything you need to send me exactly what your concerns are.

Sigh. Just one more damn thing. It's the same old get mad about something--maybe it's actually the roster or schedule--and respond by trying to hurt me. Only it's by depriving her kids of something they need and want. So sad.

It is/was tempting to type out the list of all my concerns and send it to her. Instead I sent

SDG: DS9 asking to meet with a counselor isn't good enough for you?

Waywards suck. What I wouldn't give to be able to let waywards see with clarity. Or to have them hit by falling anvils.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 06:34 PM
My goodness, you can tell she is one unhappy woman. That little of an issue has her sniping.

You are doing what you can do.

hugsdguy hug

Fox

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 06:51 PM
Quote
you can tell she is one unhappy woman.
You're right, Fox. I hadn't really thought about it that way. Thanks for the perspective.
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by SCQ
When I have some time to discuss it with DS9 I will let you know.

So after she strong-arms and brow beats a 9-year old into submission and finally gets him to more or less say it is all your idea in self defense, she will be back.


Originally Posted by SCBITCH
I don't think for a minute that you didn't have a hand in it.

You are more of a JACK [censored] than I originally thought.

I guess that's why you are up all night. Plotting to leave SCQ off snack assisgnment lists. "BwaaaaaaaHAAAAAHAAAAAA!!!! My plans are going perfectly with the Snack Mom!!


Quote
How dare you leave me off the schedule for DD5's softball.

There's the "How Dare You" again. One more time. Yep. Gets old.

Tell her you left her off because based on her new life style you were concerned she would bring Marlboros and bourbon for snacks.

Still the shrill, indignant harpy.


Quote
SDG: DS9 asking to meet with a counselor isn't good enough for you?

Clear the conning tower. Incoming! Incoming! AAAOOOOOOGAAA!! AAAOOOOOOGAAA!! Dive! Dive! Dive!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 07:24 PM
Quote
Clear the conning tower. Incoming! Incoming! AAAOOOOOOGAAA!! AAAOOOOOOGAAA!! Dive! Dive! Dive!

rotflmao

My response to the how dare you email was "I don't know what you're talking about" because I hadn't actually opened either of the files up. To which she replied "Yeah, right."

I thought about sending out an updated roster to all the parents and explaining it by saying "I'm sending out an updated roster to appease my ex-wife, who now lives with her boyfriend in Oceanside."

Then I thought about telling the SCQ that if I was really a [censored], I would have sent out an updated roster with the note "I'm sending out an updated roster to appease my ex-sife, who now lives with her boyfriend in Oceanside."

Sigh. Why am I replying to this stuff at all?
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 07:24 PM
SD,

Are you sure we don't have the same exww? I swear they must be twins with how they respond to stuff.

Your situation shows me why it's good to have a parenting coordinator. They help mediate such issues.

She'll obviously claim that the kids are just fine and you have your head up your a$$ and are simply planting ideas in his head and that DS is happy with POSOM.

These kids are going to want to be with you eventually. I can see that. It won't be long before your son is a teen. God help POSOM then.

I'm assuming the softball thing was an innocent oversight on your part of failure on hers to keep up with stuff happening.

I still lean on you filing for primary. Your kids want it and she moved far away to a point where the kids are subjected to these long drives to places they don't want to be.

Waywards do suck.

Do you think you can ask the court for a parenting coordinator? That would seriously give you a good venue to address your concerns without fear of the inevitable negative response from exww.

Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 07:30 PM
"I'm sending an updated roster to appease my ex wife who is living with her affair partner in Oceanside. Sorry I left her out before. My inability to properly clean sippy cups led to our demise. I need to add roster updates to my faults. My apologies to all."
My response..

"This is not about YOU and ME. This is about your son expressing a desire to ANYBODY that he wants to talk to a third party about HIS problems."

What I really wanna say,

"Woman, shut the f... up, step the f... back, and do what is best for YOUR kid. You are his mother. Act like it. I could give two sh!ts how you feel about me or being left outta whatever snack convention I'm a part of. Drop the ammo when it comes to your kid. You can be mad as hell at me. Whatever. When you think about decisions for your kid, leave how you feel about me the hell out of it, you stupid sow!"
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 07:37 PM
"I'm sending out an updated roster to appease my shrill adulterous ex-wife, who now lives with her chain-smoking semi-functioning drunk boyfriend in Oceanside. You will know them when you see the in the stands. When she screams at the kids it will sound like a British air raid siren at the height of the blitz on London. He will be the guy in the trench coat and dark glasses staring at the kids and holding a brown paper bag. Please help welcome them to our team. "

Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 07:44 PM
HOW DARE YOU MISS THE BAG WHEN ROUNDING SECOND!!

I think I know what's causing POSOM to chain smoke and abuse alcohol :RollieEyes:



Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by chrisner
"I'm sending out an updated roster to appease my shrill adulterous ex-wife, who now lives with her chain-smoking semi-functioning drunk boyfriend in Oceanside. You will know them when you see the in the stands. When she screams at the kids it will sound like a British air raid siren at the height of the blitz on London. He will be the guy in the trench coat and dark glasses staring at the kids and holding a brown paper bag. Please help welcome them to our team. "

No one can out chrisner chrisner. A truly remarkable improvement over my vain attempt at humor. rotflmao
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 07:59 PM
rotflmao Oh, chris! I've missed your humor.

Quote
Sigh. Why am I replying to this stuff at all?

'cause everybody has a little "Fox" in them. wink

Quote
"Woman, shut the f... up, step the f... back, and do what is best for YOUR kid. You are his mother. Act like it. I could give two sh!ts how you feel about me or being left outta whatever snack convention I'm a part of. Drop the ammo when it comes to your kid. You can be mad as hell at me. Whatever. When you think about decisions for your kid, leave how you feel about me the hell out of it, you stupid sow!"

Now, THAT is more like it. rotflmao


SCQ: faint


rotflmao

Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 07:59 PM
"You will recognize her if you happen to notice her at a game. She will be the sad, small woman who talks to no one else while there. She will likely spend much of her time sending text messages via a blackberry."

This one is true. I recall a powerful post by Coachswife on my thread maybe ten months ago. Sorry if you read and find this stuff insensitive, CW.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 08:03 PM
Quote
'cause everybody has a little "Fox" in them.
How true. Want to post the finger-wag back at me?

Quote
"Woman, shut the f... up, step the f... back, and do what is best for YOUR kid. You are his mother. Act like it. I could give two sh!ts how you feel about me or being left outta whatever snack convention I'm a part of. Drop the ammo when it comes to your kid. You can be mad as hell at me. Whatever. When you think about decisions for your kid, leave how you feel about me the hell out of it, you stupid sow!"
Amen.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 08:05 PM
naughty



kiss
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 08:07 PM
Quote
Do you think you can ask the court for a parenting coordinator? That would seriously give you a good venue to address your concerns without fear of the inevitable negative response from exww.
This sounds like a great idea, but I don't know how it works in California. I'll have to find out. It may just be the court-appointed mediator we already met with.

I'm going to talk to a lawyer to find out how to proceed. If she stalls on the counseling, I'm just going to take her to mediation and/or court.
..."and for that matter, I don't give a flying fart how you feel about the decisions you've made. The high horse is yours to have. Congratufrickelations. Now, get on with the business of CO-parenting, you stupid sow"...

Boy, this is fun. I remember having it OUT with the Z over trying to have DS at his OW's apartment. I remember him writing that SHE won't be there. AS IF. I wasn't having any of that. I probably DJ'd the hell outta him. I wasn't about to add more confusion to that kids life, not right then. He was already dealing with lots of trauma.

I was willing to have him take me to court. You can do what you want to me, but mess with my kid. Watch out!
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 08:11 PM
Quote
"You will recognize her if you happen to notice her at a game. She will be the sad, small woman who talks to no one else while there. She will likely spend much of her time sending text messages via a blackberry."

Yes, that's more like it.

Wayzilla has not come to see a single game DD has coached this year. At the few games DD coached she attended last season she would sit with the opponent's parents and say nothing.

They may have gotten everthing they wanted through their adultery and divorce but they are not happy. I wonder if they are surprised?
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 08:17 PM
You know.. I was starting to question whether or not I was imagining some of this stuff in exWW.

Between POM, and you SD.. it sounds like we all divorced the same friggin woman..

So very sad that they had to leave us to find happiness.. and this... is the happiness they've found.

Just another heaping helping of how pointless and abusive all of this really is.

Sad strange smallish women..

OH well..

Who's got two thumbs and is hosting a rousing party this weekend that I would have never been allowed to have under the oppressive regime of the WW?


THIS GUY!


grin


Hope you're doing something to keep your spirits up SD, and not letting this crap get to you too much. Easiest just to have a plan, stick to it, and let her do what she's going to do.. you dictate your actions, not her.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 08:18 PM
Quote
They may have gotten everthing they wanted through their adultery and divorce but they are not happy. I wonder if they are surprised.
Yeah, my problem is that I still want her to see this. The sooner she figures this out, the better it is for the kids.
Posted By: Jamesus Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
The sooner she figures this out, the better it is for the kids.


Or more likely it's worse SD... more likely, she'll sooner or later figure this out.. but it will be in general terms of -her- unhappiness, inconvenience, and discomfort.

I'd wager good money that her survival instinct will kick in and supress any thoughts of what this has really done to the young lives she should have taken responsibility for.

I don't honestly know how anyone could do this to their children, and maintain a desire to continue breathing.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 08:22 PM
Quote
Hope you're doing something to keep your spirits up SD, and not letting this crap get to you too much. Easiest just to have a plan, stick to it, and let her do what she's going to do.. you dictate your actions, not her.
Yeah, it's all a bit tough at the moment, for reasons I've already said enough about. At least I *know* that and can feel it in myself, and am doing what I can. Appointments with both my mental health professionals tonight. And I think I'm going to blow out of work for the rest of the day, too.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/05/09 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Quote
They may have gotten everthing they wanted through their adultery and divorce but they are not happy. I wonder if they are surprised.
Yeah, my problem is that I still want her to see this. The sooner she figures this out, the better it is for the kids.


:RollieEyes:


WHY do you think she is so unhappy?

She knows - and she knows that YOU know.


Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/09 07:43 PM
SDG: So, look, it wasn't my intention that you get left off the roster, and, for what it's worth, I'm sorry that it came out that way.

I hope you're not preventing DS9 from getting counseling just to hurt me. Please make sure that's not what you're doing. DS9 asked for help. I think we should get it for him.


Yesterday, my IC brought up how I would feel if the situation were reversed on the whole roster thing, and I would have been triggered, too. She seriously overreacted, of course.

I'm trying to get back on the high road. I feel better about myself, and it's likely to make her even angrier that I won't fight with her.

Tomorrow the Red Rubies have our first game. We've had two practices--enough to work on throwing the ball (but not catching it), hitting it off a tee, running the bases, and picking up a rolling ground ball. We haven't had a chance to put it all together, though, so I'm expecting it to be a very entertaining game.
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/09 07:52 PM
Quote
enough to work on throwing the ball (but not catching it)

Sounds like my guards and posts. Some of my bigs catch a ball like they are wearing baseball mitts on both hands backwards.


Quote
She seriously overreacted, of course.
HOW DARE YOU!!!



Quote
I hope you're not preventing DS9 from getting counseling just to hurt me. Please make sure that's not what you're doing.


With future HOW DARE YOUs!!! yet to come.
Posted By: dgs53 Re: SDGuy's Plan B - 02/06/09 07:54 PM
Good luck to the Red Rubies!!!! hurray I hope you have someone there with a video camera, those will be very precious moments!Have a great weekend! I will be at Chris's game tonight, I hope they knock em dead! Literally!!! rotflmao
Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: SDGuy's Plan B - 02/06/09 08:14 PM
DGS!! Well look what rolled down the mountain!

I just realized you had your own profile.

SD,

I coached T-ball last year and will be again this year. That's some funny and amazing stuff

and yeah, uniforms and snacks are waaaay more impt than the game

I remember half the team running off to the other team b/c they whipped out their snacks first.

lotsa "Get Back Over Here!" in T-ball

Have Fun
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/09 08:20 PM
Quote
Yesterday, my IC brought up how I would feel if the situation were reversed on the whole roster thing, and I would have been triggered, too. She seriously overreacted, of course.

Oh, boo frickin' hoo for her. Instead of spouting off at YOU she could have called the person doing the roster and said "I notice that I was inadvertantly left off the rest, would you please add me?"

She wanted to vent at you, specifically, and she did.


Quote
and it's likely to make her even angrier that I won't fight with her.

OR, she thinks she is superior and that she wins by default.

Either way, if it makes YOU feel better to not engage, then not engaging is a good idea.

I engage because it does make me feel better. I hate stuff riding on my chest anymore. When WxH sends a stinger, I tend to sock him (figuratively) right between the eyes back. Gee, I wonder why he doesn't engage anymore? grin It's all good. Less engagement from him means less is riding on my chest that I feel I need to unload. KWIM?

Quote
Tomorrow the Red Rubies have our first game. We've had two practices--enough to work on throwing the ball (but not catching it), hitting it off a tee, running the bases, and picking up a rolling ground ball. We haven't had a chance to put it all together, though, so I'm expecting it to be a very entertaining game.

hurray Good luck!!!


Fox



Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/09 09:49 PM
SCQ: Forget the rooster. Whats done is done.

I wanted to know what concerns you had independent from anything else.


Not sure how to respond to this.
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/09 09:52 PM
Quote
Forget the rooster.

Rooster? Is she into [censored] fights now?



Quote
I wanted to know what concerns you had independent from anything else.


Hmmmmmm...sincerity or setup?.......Hmmmmmmm
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/09 09:54 PM
I didn't even notice the rooster thing. And [censored] fights being censored. That's hilarious.

But, yeah, how to interpret the other part. And how to respond. If at all.
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/09 09:57 PM
I don't get the, "independent from anything else" part.

You never told her anything about DS9's recent concerns.

I can't say [censored] fight? How very limiting in my daily speech and written communications. I talk about [censored] fights several times a day.

Can I say cockpit???

Nope. We can't talk about a pilots seat on a plane either.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/09 10:00 PM
Yeah, it sounds like she's asking me what I think.

Quote
I can't say [censored] fight? How very limiting in my daily speech and written communications.
I wonder if you can say cockfight. I like it how you can say JACK and [censored] but not [censored].
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/09 10:02 PM
Shuttlecock??

Good! We can have badminton discussions!


Cockshuttle?

Crap! That limits our talks about antique tractors!
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/09 10:07 PM
Rooster!!! hahahaa rotflmao

Quote
But, yeah, how to interpret the other part. And how to respond. If at all.

Hmmmm.... I'd almost consider responding in kind. She asked pleasantly enough. Maybe just truly lay out what you think and what you would like to see for him in a non-confrontational way.

IDK.

Yeah, I didn't get the "independent of everything else" statement, either.



Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/09 10:12 PM
Quote
She asked pleasantly enough.

skeptical


HOW DARE YOU CALL MY ROOSTER A [censored]!!!!

Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/09 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by chrisner
Quote
She asked pleasantly enough.

skeptical

In comparison to the last cokamamie blowup.

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/09 10:19 PM
You know if we were all together and wanted to go to the lounge for a cocktail and continuance of this discussion we could not?
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/09 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by chrisner
You know if we were all together and wanted to go to the lounge for a cocktail and continuance of this discussion we could not?

I thought you drank the heavy stuff - not cocktails.

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/09 10:33 PM
Actually I recently had my first martini at a very nice place in Fort Collins a few weeks ago with DGS. It was so good it turned into a mar-two-ni.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/09 10:41 PM
Did you hold your pinky up while you were drinking them? rotflmao
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/09 10:47 PM
No, it was more like Sean Connery I think. Without the accent. He did not do the pinky thing.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/09 10:50 PM
Good for you, DGS must be a good influence. wink
Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/09/09 12:33 AM
Hi SD,

Quote
I don't get the, "independent from anything else" part.

Just got caught up on your thread.

I see SCQ is being 'vague' as I also wonder what she means by the phrase. Hard to believe she is prepared to 'listen' to anything you have to say and be sincere about it....so my first reaction is that it may be a 'set up' and you will 'lose' no matter what you decide to reply.

Would it be important and/or helpful to you to ask her to elaborate?
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/09/09 12:49 AM
So did the parents burn an effigy of the coach on the infield after the game?

Maybe a parent or two who dissented (you know the "favored" kids parents) tried to put it out by squirting Sunny-D from the little juice packet straws?

I think the parents have "Effigy Night" for me next week. I'll buy some marshmallows.

How be the Red Rubies?

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/09/09 05:26 PM
Would you believe we got rained out? No ceremonies, no games. A wet weekend in San Diego. It rained last night and today--it fits my mood. I was at work for all of a minute and a half before I wanted to get out of here. Now I have to go to a meeting to discuss closeout activities while still not knowing whether I am in or out. A few more days.

Sigh.

Didn't respond to the SCQ. My mom talked to her over the phone to discuss logistics stuff and relayed the counseling discussion. Mom said she sounded reasonable and didn't think that it would be an issue. I guess we'll see.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/09/09 06:21 PM
There used to be a thread about Initial Reactions to thread titles, but I haven't seen it for a while. Every now and then I'll see a topic I haven't noticed before.

Today it was "Input to Plan B Draft," to which my response was "I hope I get taken in the first round, because that's where the big signing bonus money is."
Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/09/09 06:58 PM
nothing beats

Painfulgrowth's Thread (sex addict in recovery)

rotflmao

There's nothing worse than having a painful growth when you're a sex addict cry

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/12/09 07:59 PM
It's official -- I've been laid off, but it's really a good thing. I get a very generous severance package, and I get to get out of here.

The company has been downsizing like crazy for the past several years trying to deal with the huge loss of revenus that comes when drugs go off patent. Three years ago my workgroup went from 230 people to 30 people, and that's the point where it stopped being a career for me and started being a job.

Granted, it's been a cushy and well-paying job, but my talents have been underutilized for a long time. The timing worked out well with respect to my mental state--at the time I was least able to function professionally, there really wasn't anything challenging for me to do. It would be nice to do some work I can feel proud of again. I mean really proud.

So I don't think I'm angry about it, really. Venting a bit about the hypocrisy involved in the process, which is all about the unwritten leader behavior "Don't get sued," but that can't be helped.

It's a relief to finally know.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/12/09 08:12 PM
Wow, sdguy, that's not what I was expecting to hear. I'm glad you are taking it so well and that it won't be too much of a hardship for you.

There are days I WISH I would get laid off. But I wouldn't get the generous severance package - so that curbs the dream a bit.

Quote
It would be nice to do some work I can feel proud of again. I mean really proud.

I think this is a wonderful way to look at it. It could very well turn into an opportunity for you.

I think downturn in the economy will be a wake up call and force changes. That can be a good thing.

I saw on MSN today about Exxon possibly going bust - I can't say it would break my heart. smile Greediness is catching up with people/companies, it's time to recognize what true value really is - employees and customers have been long underappreciated in some places, IMHO.

I'm pulling for you, sdguy, looking forward to seeing what life has in store for you.

How's the Rubies?

Fox
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/12/09 08:12 PM
You sound good in spite of it. Been there 3-times over the past 30 years. I always came out better for it.

But it still stinks. You have had a pretty teriffic 3-years haven't you?

Come on back to Colorado if you need to get away for a few days. A quick trip to Daveco and everything will look better.

I have nothing wise to say. Hey, maybe we can start a virtual company; for what? I have no idea, I'm just the hands of the operation; you're gonna have to be the brains...

hug
Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/13/09 12:07 AM
Hi SD,

Quote
It would be nice to do some work I can feel proud of again. I mean really proud.

...as long as you see it as an opportunity, and are given the means to 'turn around', it's all good!

As you say, at least now 'you know' and can focus and plan ahead.













Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/13/09 01:08 AM
Thanks for the thoughts, everyone.

Quote
You have had a pretty teriffic 3-years haven't you?
I had that thought the other day. "Jeez, for the past three years the world has [censored] all over me," but it's all about perspective. When I think about the life I was born into, the opportunities I've had, health, education, lifestyle, the kids I have, the opportunities that are still in front of me, I'm one of the luckiest guys around.

Quote
As you say, at least now 'you know' and can focus and plan ahead.
It began to feel like relief as soon as I figured out which way it was going to go. I could have made a positive case either way, but I'm just as happy that it's gone this way. Some of my former colleagues are reacting to this news just like the reaction to the news that the divorce finally went through--"I don't know whether to say Congratulations or I'm sorry," and it completely fits.

Quote
Hey, maybe we can start a virtual company
I think this is a great idea. It's just when we go to try to pay our mortgages with virtual money that worries me.

Quote
for what? I have no idea
Yeah, short of the Betrayed Spouses' Tranquility Spa and Shooting Range, I haven't got much at the moment. I'll get to work on it, though.

Quote
How's the Rubies?
We had a practice yesterday (after I had figured out I was out)and it was great. I think we're ready for our first game on Saturday. I mean, as ready as 5/6-year old girls can possibly be for their first softball game. They're talking about rain again for this weekend.

Posted By: Jamesus Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/13/09 12:48 PM
Sorry about the loss of the job, but it sounds like you've got a really positive outlook.

Things like -this- tend to happen for a reason in retrospect, and so long as you find something you enjoy doing down the road.. it's all just stepping stones.


You seem really mentally and emotionally sound these days man, and while I don't post much anymore I have been keeping up. Can't tell you how many times I've said to myself in the last month many of the things you've been reflecting in the past couple of weeks. It's a journey.. and I think we're coming out better for it.

From one pretty lucky guy to another.. cheers mate.
Posted By: PSUBIKER Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/13/09 01:13 PM
SDGuy,

I know how it feels - the heady days of Pharma are gone. I'm currently part of the team that's evaluating to outsource my department at a major Pharma. Our WW's have a lot in common. My divorce should be final in the next couple of weeks - I'm not sure whether to pop the champagne or drink some shots in sorrow!

I changed my "relationship status" to nothing on my FaceBook page the other day and I got about a dozen congratulations messages!
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/13/09 01:36 PM
SD,

Sweetie, I'm sorry too about the job. Yes, you seem to be handling it with the right attitude!! Good for you! Keep a concerted effort to remain confident in your abilities/skills! We've all been there and it's easy to lose that as time goes along.

You are a valuable asset and will be so to the next organization that is lucky enough to have you!! I'm SO happy to learn that you were given a good comp package! Use some time to enjoy & breath a bit! I see some nice walks on the beach in your future,,,,not to mention lots of batting practices!!

I hope the weather stays clear for the weekend!! Can't wait to hear about the Red Rubies first win celebration!!

Oh and about this,,,

Quote
Yeah, short of the Betrayed Spouses' Tranquility Spa and Shooting Range, I haven't got much at the moment. I'll get to work on it, though.

It's a great start,,,,,,I would take a vaca here!!

Is it ok to pay with virtual $$??
SDG,

Keep your chin up. My brother told me, when dealing with WW, that my bad karma was coming to an end and her bad karma was about to start.

Since then I've gotten more time with my kids, big reduction in CS, a great new GF, and the job has gotten more interesting.

Her? Car accident, back problems, losses in court.

So I get the same vibe for you.

Signed:

An old friend with a new name.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/13/09 05:06 PM
SD:

Sorry about the job loss.

It has been a tough three years for you.

Looking in THAT rear view mirror isn't really necessary anymore is it?

The only thing that matters is that you will have your children going forward.

A new job will be obtained. More money, less money, More thinking, less thinking, it doesn't matter.

Some modification to life will occur. Living standards will change, etc.

Your healthy. Your kids are in good shape (I know, NOT as good as they could be..) You have a cushion that can support you for a year or so, maybe longer if you tighten the belt a little more.

Imagine how much fun this summer can be. Your kids DO NOT have to go to day care. Sure, SCQ can pick them up at whatever designated location you end up with. It will be a summer that they, and YOU will remember for the rest of your lives.

Sure, you do a job search, you just can't "start" the job until September.

Think about it.

LG
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/13/09 05:15 PM
Quote
Sure, you do a job search, you just can't "start" the job until September.

Oh, man!!! I'm so jealous!!! cry


What a great idea.


Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/14/09 10:49 PM
PSUBIKER, thanks for posting. Always good to hear from someone who gets the Pharma thing. I'll check up on your thread when I get a chance--I find that I only occasionally get off the Amigo threads (including Bugs, James, Fox) these days.

I saw the Red Baron posting on Chrisner's thread and haven't figured out your old identity yet, but I'm sure it will come to me. Thanks for stopping in.

Quote
Looking in THAT rear view mirror isn't really necessary anymore is it?
Nice perspective, as always, LG. No, it really isn't. Some of it is about making sense out of why I don't feel bad. Realizing how how big a drag my job had become and why. What to look for in a new gig and how to go about searching.

I'm definitely planning to take my time. I enjoyed some of that yesterday--they told us we could take the day off, so I spent it at the school. Volunteered in DD5's kindergarten class in the morning, watched the school assembly, administered the lunchtime dodgeball game for DS9 and others, and hung around for the big Gold Rush Days festivities. All great.

The Red Rubies had our first game this morning. I thought it would get rained out, but it turned out to be bright and sunny and not too cold. Lots of fun, and the girls did really well. We don't keep score, the girls advance one base at a time, and everyone bats in the inning such that the last batter runs all the bases and scores.

The other team had a few girls who had played before (unlike our team), and they actually got a few of us out in the first inning. No crying, though. On the last play of the game, their last hitter hit it up the middle. Our pitcher made a great stop, turned and made a perfect throw to the first baseman, who was actually covering first base, and the ball landed right in her glove. It would have been an out if it hadn't been the last batter. Instant elation.

Then it was time for cheering and cupcakes. Now spending the rest of the weekend goofing off.

Hope everyone else's is also great.


Posted By: believer Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/14/09 11:01 PM
SDGuy - HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry you got laid off, but it might turn out to be good in the end. Most people work for many companies in their lives. Expect to have about 7 employers in your life.

I will pray for you to find a job that will challenge you.
We were married to very similar exes. Hope that helps.

I'm glad to see you're coaching. Those kinds of activities help build you up over time where you will once again accept the new normal for you and be happy.

3 years on and I'm happy. So much so that my blood pressure has dropped to nearly normal levels. Kind of weird how it happened almost overnight.

Time will pass and you'll get better and better. I'll admit, however, that I didn't have to deal with an OM. I would likely still be very angry if that was the case. Can't see how I would have gotten past that.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/16/09 08:04 PM
Quote
We were married to very similar exes.
Got it.

Quote
So much so that my blood pressure has dropped to nearly normal levels.
Glad to hear that. For me, it would be a sudden reduction in shoulder tension, I think. Awareness of shoulder tension was a new year's resolution, but it's been a challenging one so far.

Quote
Sorry you got laid off, but it might turn out to be good in the end.
I think that this is definitely true. I talked some about how things have been in this job, but going forward will be even worse. There will be more and more cutbacks. My division has left only a token presence at this satellite site without much to do, and it's only a matter of time before it gets eliminated. Maybe the site, too. On top of all of that, the severance packages will be worse going forward, so this is definitely the time for me to go.

It was pretty relaxing weekend, all things considered. Doing some stuff that was fun (starting with the softball game) and just being. Letting thoughts and feelings come and go.

After the game on Saturday, I told the girl who made our great play that it was "the play of the game." She didn't seem particularly impressed, but after I sent out a team email this morning, her mom responded immediately that her daughter had told anyone who would listen all weekend that her coach told her she had made the play of the game. Awesome.

Anger at the SCQ comes and goes. Anxiety that POSOM will show up at a softball game; things I would say to him; things that I want the SCQ to understand. They come and go. Mostly go. It tells me I am healing rather than healed.

Wondering occasionally about how and whether to talk to the kids about POSOM. Should I tell them what an evil [censored] POSOM is? Which is more important--not undermining their relationship with their mother, or teaching them that there are bad people in the world and that I expect them not to become one.

Musing on the fact that first I was discarded as a husband and now have been discarded professionally. I have a healthy enough sense of self-worth that I don't think about it that way, but one could, I suppose. I think more in terms of new opportunities.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/16/09 11:55 PM
SD,

Sorry to hear about the job, but life has a way of pointing you in a direction that you had not considered before. That's how I ended up a business owner. After my 3rd downsize in technology, I decided that I would be in charge of my own fate.

I hope to have more time to catch up later.

I'd like to franchise. Interested in being the first west coast franchisee? laugh



Posted By: Jamesus Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/17/09 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Anger at the SCQ comes and goes. Anxiety that POSOM will show up at a softball game; things I would say to him; things that I want the SCQ to understand. They come and go. Mostly go. It tells me I am healing rather than healed.

Wondering occasionally about how and whether to talk to the kids about POSOM. Should I tell them what an evil [censored] POSOM is? Which is more important--not undermining their relationship with their mother, or teaching them that there are bad people in the world and that I expect them not to become one.


Right there with you on the healing rather than healed part. I think I get more frustrated with myself for wasting time thinking about them. One of the reasons I really haven't been 'active' much. Been reading.. just not posting a whole lot.. not much to update on my end anyhow, just day to day livin.

As for what's more important, my very humble opinion is that both are equally important, and if you step back from the situation you'll see plenty of other examples you can use other than POSOM to illustrate the example of what you don't want your kids to become.. heck, just turn on a TV, you'll find plenty of em.

Stay strong bro, you're sounding healthy.. just don't let yourself get into a rut of dwelling on her and just deal with your thing now that you'll have all this time on your hands.

SDG,

I lost the job I had before and ended up with a much better one. Granted, it would be scary in today's economy, but the opportunities are out there depending on what you do. How are things looking on the work front?
Posted By: believer Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/17/09 05:29 PM
Yes, chin up........

Hope you are putting out resumes and talking with headhunters now.

The gov is always hiring. Check out: https://chart.donhr.navy.mil/

If you can figure out something you can do, you can put a resume on the site and they will notify you if they have an opening. You never even have to leave home. It is good to copy and paste right out of the job description because a computer reads the resumes.

I hope have started looking now. Don't wait until your severance runs low.

Or you could continue your education. Might be able to get financial help as a displaced employee.

Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/17/09 06:03 PM
Quote
After the game on Saturday, I told the girl who made our great play that it was "the play of the game." She didn't seem particularly impressed, but after I sent out a team email this morning, her mom responded immediately that her daughter had told anyone who would listen all weekend that her coach told her she had made the play of the game. Awesome.

That's cool!

However once you have done this youth coaching gig for a while you will have a parent come forward who will tell you you should spread all praise evenly. Because they are all smarter than us coaches. They never volunteer to do anything but they are very smart. I love the "let's all rise up to our weakest player" thing. Building a nation of village idiots one kid at a time.

You want to borrow Chuck? She could pass for a 5 year old maybe. She was a starter for our school's varsity softball team this year too. That's really her game. Basketball is just for fun. She plays second base and from what I hear is amazing. What a shock.

Hang in there SD.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/17/09 06:58 PM
Quote
However once you have done this youth coaching gig for a while you will have a parent come forward who will tell you you should spread all praise evenly.
Oh yeah, we praise all of them. We praise how hard they ran to first base, that they picked up ground balls and threw them somewhere in the vicinity of first base. I'll keep doing that and making sure that all of the girls have a good time playing. I like the teaching and having fun aspect of this. When it starts to become competitive and you have to deal with upset parents, then I'm pretty sure I'm getting out.

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Hope you are putting out resumes and talking with headhunters now.

The gov is always hiring. Check out: https://chart.donhr.navy.mil/
Thanks for that, B. My official last day isn't until March (Friday the 13th!), and even then I have a two-month notification period where I'm still an employee before the severance kicks in. I really can't complain. Plus, after my last day I get access to employment placement help, so I'm kind of waiting around for that to update my resume and the like. I'm going to take a look at the gov site.

Don't worry, though. I'm cognisant of the ant and the grasshopper and won't do too much grasshopping before starting to think like an ant again.

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Or you could continue your education
There is a continuing education benefit--I can take a class and the company will pay for it. I think I want to do this but haven't figured out what to do yet. I already have a PhD in organic chemistry. Maybe a lion-taming class. Or massage therapy classes.

Maybe I'll study to be an MFT. Open up an office. Hang a shovel on the wall.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/03/09 07:41 PM
How's about that update?


Fox
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/03/09 09:21 PM
Thanks, Fox.

My parents are just wrapping up their annual stay in San Diego. My brother and his family were here visiting for a week, and that was great. And then my best friends from Colorado were here visiting for a week, and that was great. I took some vacation time to get out of the mausoleum, and that was great.

Now I'm back in the mausoleum for another week, but I'm feeling pretty good about it. I'm slowly cleaning my office, reminiscing over the good stuff, setting aside a burn pile for the particularly annoying corporate crap I endured. I think I'm in a better place than many of my colleagues because I already have experience at having massive unwanted life changes forced upon me.

It's not all great--I go through occasional periods of anxiety. I think one of them manifested itself as intense anger at the SCQ about a week ago, and it seemed strange because she's been mostly benign for the last month or more. Or maybe it was having friends around and still feeling the wrongness of divorce.

That's one I still have lots of trouble with--getting over anger about the divorce and the fact that it's wrong. I accept it, but I'm still angry about it because it's wrong. Gotta let go of it. That will get easier as I embrace what Life has to offer me now. Of course, that hasn't been easy for the past couple of months with the crappy work environment and getting laid off, but that's going to get better, too.

Over the weekend, our school had a fund raiser, and I had a chance to talk with some friends I had kind of lost track of. Their daughter was in the same kindergarten and first grade class as DS9. They shared a crush in 1st grade, so we parents would chat about it occasionally around the school.

Then life intervened. While I was dealing with infidelity, their son (2 years younger than DS9) was being diagnosed with cancer. The school rallied around him--he was a remarkable, joyous kid with a terrific attitude. He lost his battle last August. I was so mired in my own crap I didn't even find out for a while, and then I hadn't had an opportunity to really talk with them, but I did on Saturday. It felt good.

I was reminded by something LilSis said when contemplating her new relationship: "Sure, he's had breakups, but he doesn't really know pain." That stuck with me. It was something I had in common with these parents--we know pain. I told them as much without trying to equate my pain to theirs (reading their blog brings tears to my eyes even today), and we spent a long time talking about stuff.

Really nice people. Trying to deal with this tremendous loss as best they can. I hope to see more of them.

The softball season continues--the Red Rubies had our most recent game on the big softball field with the bleachers and an announcer and everything. It was pretty cool. The girls are playing well and recorded a few outs. Less playing with dirt and more paying attention overall. Unlike the week before, when the discovery of a ladybug in the outfield (by DD5, no less) caused several players to completely forget about the game. It's all good.
Posted By: believer Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/03/09 10:09 PM
Hope you will check out the site. Just put in the city you want to work in, and you will see all the jobs available. By the way, they are looking for a chemist. Who knows what you would be doing, but it might be something different.
Posted By: Holyheart Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/03/09 11:24 PM
Hey, SDGuy:
Just wanted to thank you for checking in on my thread and offering such sound advice. It's just what I needed to hear at that moment.

And I feel bad that I'm just hearing about you being laid off. Sorry about that.

I'll say a prayer for you and your family. Keep up the positive attitude. And thanks for continuing to help others. You will be rewarded -- trust me!
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/04/09 07:17 PM
Hi Sd, was just stopping in to say hi and thanks for dropping in on my thread! I really like the advice that you are giving FOX about guys...being that I'm trying to figure that all out myself, as I mentioned on BUGS thread.

You are a valuable asset my friend!

I'm sorry to hear about the struggle of those parents.
Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/04/09 09:41 PM
Hi SD.

Thanks for the update. It's true. Being in crisis mode doesn't leave much room 'to be there' for others in crisis. I can't even begin to imagine what it would be like the pain of the loss of a child. I am sure they appreciated your support.

What has made the news around here these days is the death of two children, a little boy of 5 and a little girl of 3. Their parents, two doctors, were apparently separating. Their dad is being accused for committing the crime while left in his care, and then trying to take his own life, but has survived. I am trying to think....in what place was he to be able to committ such a thing? What's ahead for both parents? I just shudder at the depth of pain the loss of these two innocent lives has created in so many lives....

Sorry for the t/j, SD. I know I am not being much help to you. At this moment, just having trouble accepting what seems to be senseless 'destruction' as being part of life...





Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/05/09 04:25 AM
SD,

You WILL land on your feet. You'll see. One year from today, we will see where you are, and I know you'll be looking back at today and wondering why it was so bad.

Haven't had much time to post, but you are in my thoughts and prayers. hug
Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/05/09 05:38 AM
SD - he was in a place where all he could see was depression and despair and darkness and desperation. He hated to see those children's lives torn apart. I imagine he wanted them released from the situation and he wanted to be released from the situation. I suppose it's a form of insanity.

Truth is, I can understand that. There were times when I wanted out....wanted the children out...couldn't/wouldn't hurt them or myself but I was desperate for some reasonable form of freedom.

But, unlike this man, I knew God was there for me. He might not rescue me from the crisis through which I was living but HE would get me through it. I imagine this man did not have that ace in his pocket.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/05/09 10:12 PM
SD,

I don't have a whole lot to contribute. But just have to say that I can understand where you are coming from with the anger,,,even if the ExWs are benign acting for a while.

You mention the feeling of 'wrongness'. I feel the same & am fully prepared to feel that for the rest of my life. I'm not really angry about it(not the way I once was), but it will forever feel WRONG. Why? Because it IS wrong, IMHO. I'm not saying that divorce is always wrong - the are certainly circumstances where divorce is the only way to go. But when it comes to Infidelity,,,, well nothing makes that right.

I can't imagine what your friends have gone through with their loss. I do hope you find more time to interact with them. I know it would mean a lot to them.

Sorry to hear that a 'ladybug' caused so much distraction with the Red Rubies the other day! I laughed out loud when I read this because I can TOTALLY imagine the scene.

I'm glad you've had visitors & have been staying busy. You are doing great with your outlook!

Oh, and I think you should have a nice bonfire on the beach with all of your Corporate Crapola Material!!
Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/05/09 10:32 PM
SD - did I mention thinking about you the other day. I was in the sporting goods store and saw the shoe laces.....all the different colors. And, I remembered telling you the girls would love red laces for their shoes - to which you agreed. So, just remember, you are special and there are almost-total strangers who do think about you.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/06/09 02:21 AM
Originally Posted by cinderella
SD - So, just remember, you are special and there are almost-total strangers who do think about you.

I second that!
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/06/09 05:03 AM
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SD - So, just remember, you are special and there are almost-total strangers who do think about you.

smile I'll stand in that lot too! wink

I also completely agree with Bugs and what she was saying about being "wronged" but not feeling that anger.

Who would have thought we would be standing here today not feeling all of that despair?

Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/06/09 04:14 PM
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So, just remember, you are special and there are almost-total strangers who do think about you.

I second that!

I..third that! think

hugSD hug
Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/06/09 04:25 PM
lashes I'm so glad y'all appreciate me and recognize the truth in what I say. I'm not gonna intentionally lead you astray. Just keep on rememberin' what I said! lashes
Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/10/09 01:20 PM
BTW, Chai has IRS audit today. She is worried. Y'all need to keep her in mind/prayer today, PLEASE!
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/26/09 11:15 PM
Bumping for an update!!! You were back on Page 5 SD!!! We just can't allow it....
Posted By: believer Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/26/09 11:17 PM
OMG - He is probably madly in love............................
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/27/09 12:24 AM
Hey SD! Believer! LOL, you think so? LOL..... smile
Posted By: believer Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/27/09 12:30 AM
Well, he could be. Hopefully not, but he was out of work and dating....................
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/27/09 12:42 AM
HMMMMMMM...LOL... smile

Well SD, I hope you give us and update soon!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/30/09 06:34 AM
Hi, guys

Sorry it's been so long since I've updated. No good excuse, I guess. Cupid's arrow didn't hit me or anything.

I've been away from the job for two weeks now. For a while, I was letting it sink in. I wasn't sure how to post about it so I just didn't. I'm not bored. I'm not sorry I'm not still there. I'm not angry at my old employer. I'm enjoying myself. Maybe a little too much, although it's not like I'm doing anything significant.

Lots of time with the kids. Red Rubies softball games. Little league games. Time volunteering at the school--in the kindergarten classroom or on the playground at lunch. These are the things that dominate my schedule now. I'm going to devote some more time to job-hunting.

We had a split-squad weekend, which means that I had time with the kids individually. DS9 talked to me yesterday about what life is like at the other house. That he doesn't like all the time in traffic to get there, that he doesn't like POSOM. That POSOM "yells at everyone except the SCQ--except for when they're fighting (once a month)." That he's a little bit afraid of POSOM. That the SCQ never has any time for him unless it's for homework. What DS9 tells me about POSOM's drinking (4-5 glasses of wine per day) fits with what OMW had told me--POSOM seems to be a functional alcoholic.

For their spring break, the kids will be going to visit their grandparents in Arizona (like last year). This time, her parents are going to come and get them. DS9 tells me that the SCQ will be skiing in Colorado with POSOM while this happens. That "she's not even coming with us. She can't even spare 12 hours."

It's typical wayward behavior. Nothing we haven't seen before. I've been pretty honest with him, telling him that her bad decisions are because of POSOM. That just because she's making these bad decisions doesn't mean she's a bad person, etc. That someday she will regret what she's doing now.

It's tempting to take it up directly with the SCQ (why are you letting this man yell at our kids, do you know that they are afraid of him, do you ever talk to them about how they feel), but things have been so quiet and easy on that front that I'm reluctant to stir up the hornet's nest. DS9 is finally set up for counseling at school, so I want to see where that leads first. And I'll talk with the ILs when they come to pick up the kids.

No dates lately. Just living. Hope everyone is doing well. I'll try to get around and check on people.
Posted By: BetrayedCajun Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/30/09 04:41 PM
Sounds like you're doing just fine SD.

SCQ and POSOM do NOT sound like they are madly in love or soulmates anymore. That house looks fairly toxic. I don't think anybody sees it lasting. They're completely in save face mode.

You are LIVING

They are PRETENDING

The amigos are laregely MIA. I think we're starting to GRADUATE from MB. I'm sure everybody lurks, we just don't have much to post anymore.

Still nice to see an update

Maybe I'll give one soon. I'm a fellow coach now. We had our first practice last week. It was great.

Take Care

SDG,

I'm not in your shoes, but this is where I think we differ very, very much. I'd be reporting this to CPS and demanding an immediate evaluation.

You're exposing your kids to an alcholic. Makes no sense to me. Tell your son that he can't and shouldn't be afraid of POSOM because YOU will deal with POSOM if he ever lays a finger on your DS.

I would also not just keep quiet about this one bit with my ex. I'd handle it through the right channels, but I could not just sit idle on this.

I'd let POSOM know, in no uncertain terms, that if he ever harms your kids in any way he'll live to regret it.

I'd be pounding down doors if my kids told me that they lived with a drunk who yelled at them.

Perhaps your school counselors can do something. They are obligated, by law, to report things to CPS if they suspect abuse. But don't just wait. I'd go talk to them immediately.

He77, I'd be filing for immediate emergency custody on this alone.

Run things by your attorney. Just don't sit idle on this. You don't want to be one of those dads that gets a visit from the cops with bad news about how the step dad or the boyfriend took his frustrations out on his children.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/30/09 06:45 PM
I'm pretty sure what I wrote sounds worse than it is, Red. I talked about it with him and made sure that there was no abuse. The stuff that he's getting yelled at about is stuff that I would be tempted to yell at him about.

I talked with him quite a bit about him telling me if POSOM ever hits anyone, and that I will protect him, and that I can get him out of there, and that he should tell me if and when that's what he wants, but he doesn't want that. He started to think about it (not living there anymore), realized he would be losing the time with his mother, started to tear up, and didn't want to talk about it anymore.

He doesn't want to lose all his time with his mother. He wants things to be the way they used to be and are supposed to be and is probably highlighting the 2% of things that really bother him about the way things are now. At this point, I don't have enough to try to take the kids away from their mother. I'm not going to ignore the situation, though.

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I don't think anybody sees it lasting.
I probably shouldn't have, but I as much as told DS9 this. That relationships like this don't last. DS9 agrees that POSOM is a bad person but doesn't think that the SCQ is going to figure it out.

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The amigos are laregely MIA. I think we're starting to GRADUATE from MB. I'm sure everybody lurks, we just don't have much to post anymore.
Yeah, I noticed that. Nearly a month since we've seen Chrisner. Three weeks since Bugsy posted. Quite a while since Foxy and SL updated. It's been much less compelling lately. Thanks for posting, amigo. Glad to hear you're doing the coaching thing. It sure is a blast.

And I'm certainly appreciative of those who wondered where I was--as well as the posts earlier about people who care about me (Cinders, Chai, Luna, Rin, B). I kept meaning to reply to those but never quite got around to it.
The problem is that it is completely unnacceptable for this man to yell at your son. Are they married? What the he77 gives this man the right to yell at your kids?

There's NOTHING that gives him that right. Not one dam**n thing. He's not his father.

The older your son gets, the more he'll see that he doesn't have to put up with the garbage from POSOM.

I could care less if your son deserves to be corrected or not. That's your exww's place, not some idiot drinker who is nothing of his.

I'd tell my son that that man is nothing of his and he doesn't have to listen to him or obey him in any way.

Why not go for a 50/50 arrangement? Is that what you have right now?

The time will come when your DS will get fed up and WANT to live with you. Love for mom won't be enough.

I don't care how justified it is for your son to be corrected. That's to be done by a parent, not an imposter and certainly not one that your exww isn't even married to.

THIS is one major area where I don't care how dark Plan B is, but I would make my feelings known to exww. I would tell her that you have zero tolerance for a man yelling at your kids and that he has zero right to do so.

And you taking your kids is not taking them away from her. It's protecting them.

At a minimum you should tell the school counselors. This behavior shouldn't be tolerated at all.

Sorry if I'm not a believer in the Brady Bunch view of step parents (or boyfriends). If you aren't blood then you should keep your mouth shut and let the bio parents handle discipline.
Posted By: believer Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/30/09 07:35 PM
I would worry about complaining to mom because she obviously is not thinking about the kids. She will tell POSOM and he may take it out on your son.

This affair is sure to end, and hopefully it will be sooner than later.

You are doing well by keeping open communication with your son.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/30/09 07:41 PM
Hey!

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Yeah, I noticed that. Nearly a month since we've seen Chrisner. Three weeks since Bugsy posted. Quite a while since Foxy and SL updated. It's been much less compelling lately.

I'm still around. Lurking mostly, though. My life has become fairly calm and I'm not quite as quick to put a boot up WxH's [censored] (it helps, too, that I'm not sure he remembers I exist and has stopped poking me). Cuts way down on the stories to tell.

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I talked with him quite a bit about him telling me if POSOM ever hits anyone, and that I will protect him, and that I can get him out of there, and that he should tell me if and when that's what he wants

This is exactly what he needs to hear. He knows that you will be there if/when the rubber meets the road.

As a boy - he may feel it is necessary to stay with his mother so that he can protect HER. He may see her as weak, just as you do. Your son may see himself as his mother's protector against POSOM since she doesn't know any better.

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probably shouldn't have, but I as much as told DS9 this. That relationships like this don't last.

I still whole-heartedly believe this. It's only a matter of time......

You are a good man, amigo, you deserve so much better than she has to offer.

I do have a bit of an update - nothing major - just a blirp that is now so typical of WxH.

Congratulations on keeping the Rubies attention during the butterfly storm. That's something I just might get distracted by myself! We had 18 inches of snow here this weekend - I'd LOVE to see even ONE butterfly!

Fox
It is very good that he feels safe telling you this stuff. But don't ever tell him he should feel differently. That would mean that what he feels is wrong. It isn't.

Just listen and reassure him that you're always there to listen.

I would personally have no problem telling my sons that they don't have to listen to POSOM and that their mother is the one who should tell them what to do or how to behave. POSOM has no right to tell them anything.

I would have been a POSOM's worst nightmare. I was never nice to OW as a grownup and God help us if they had done things while I was a kid.

I know your son is only 9, which makes it easy for him to be bullied. He'll start asserting himself soon enough. Just be there to listen to him.

Sorry for my rant. I have kids of my own in a situation where I'm truly grateful that the boyfriend knows his place and stays out when he should.
Originally Posted by wildhorses74
As a boy - he may feel it is necessary to stay with his mother so that he can protect HER. He may see her as weak, just as you do. Your son may see himself as his mother's protector against POSOM since she doesn't know any better.

This is the kind of thing that causes men to grow up and seek damsels in distress and develop the "White Knight Syndrome".

The associate love with being protective and then seek out women who tend to be messes. Happened to me.

Just letting you know the potential long term affects of a situation where a young boy sees himself as his mother's protector.

SHE should be protecting HIM.

Remind him that he is not his mother's protector. He's a child and should enjoy being one.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/30/09 07:47 PM
I WISH OW would try to boss my DD14 - she'd be all up in her grill! In fact she may just rearrange OW's grill.

Poor kids! They have so much crap to deal with during all of this. It's so frustrating to watch.

Fox

Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/30/09 08:40 PM
SD,

Glad to see you back. You have done a fantastic job and someday the SCQ will wonder what she did. I wonder if POSOM ever got drunk and hit his ex? Sounds like he is a disaster waiting to happen.

Good luck on the job front. Keep us updated....
Hey there Guy,

I lurk fairly often, just checking on updates, not feeling much of a pull to comment or post anything. I'll just update here, and say that life is okay. I am still working toward getting to AZ, but I'm waiting until after the D to find a job. My final court appearance is next Monday, and that should seal the deal. No huge emotions over it. I didn't get married to get divorced; 'nuf said; I think y'all get what I'm sayin.

As for the POSOM, well, SCQ would hear from me in a heartbeat if I thought he was stepping out of line. She'd know in no uncertain terms that he'd be toast if he laid one mangy mitt on my kid.

I'm from a step-family, and as difficult as it was, my step dad made it easy by staying out of the way in terms of discipline. There were RULES in the house (his and my mom's), but that was as far as it went, enforcement was left mostly up to my mom. We have a great relationship now, born out of respect.

Now, I think my mother could have been more stern and involved, but that's a whole other thread... smirk

Love y'all bunches. I think of you all often. hug
Thanks Silent. You have worded things in a way that is a bit less......abrasive than me. smile

My mom married another man and I have given him many kudos over knowing when to step away and when it's all cool for him to throw his two cents in the picture.
Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/31/09 03:13 AM
Glad to see you, SD!


It sounds like things are going pretty well for you. I don't think posom deserves the opportunity to yell at your children. Nope! Nada! None! I think I'd be ratting on him to the counselors so they will have a head's up.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/31/09 07:38 AM
Thanks, everyone.

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There's NOTHING that gives him that right. Not one dam**n thing. He's not his father.
Believe me, I was every bit as angry, but reacting from anger hasn't really gotten me anywhere. I do better when I think through the situation and react logically rather than emotionally. Plus I need an opportunity to talk about it with DD5 before doing anything.

I'm going to bring it up with the school counselor (to whom I have explained the whole situation) as well as the ILs when they are here to pick up the kids on Sunday. And I talked with DS9 about it as much as he could stand--he knows I will protect him if POSOM so much as touches him. He knows he can tell me anything ("You already TOLD me that, Dad.").

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Why not go for a 50/50 arrangement? Is that what you have right now?
50:50 is what I have now, and things have been calm lately. The SCQ has been very accomodating. She agreed to suspend child support payments until I have found a new position without asking any details of my severance. Obviously, keeping things calm doesn't outweigh the safety of the kids, but I don't actually think they're in danger.

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I still whole-heartedly believe this. It's only a matter of time......
I didn't say anything about her coming home. Or imply it. Just implying that the current situation isn't one he's likely to have to deal with forever.

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Sorry for my rant. I have kids of my own in a situation where I'm truly grateful that the boyfriend knows his place and stays out when he should.
No worries, Red. POSOM is running the show over there. The SCQ is just a follower. I have had all sorts of thoughts about how to mess with him, but he can hurt me way more than I can hurt him. But don't worry--I'm not going to ignore the situation. The info from DS9 is fresh, so I'm still processing it.

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I wonder if POSOM ever got drunk and hit his ex?
She said no, although she described a situation where she could have filed sexual assault charges but didn't. It frustrated me how much she let him manipulate her without taking any significant actions, but I gather this is typical for spouses of alcoholics.

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Love y'all bunches. I think of you all often.
Back at you.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/31/09 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
She said no, although she described a situation where she could have filed sexual assault charges but didn't. It frustrated me how much she let him manipulate her without taking any significant actions, but I gather this is typical for spouses of alcoholics.

Well, that's pretty scary to hear. It's just a matter of time until he starts treating the SCQ the same way. Especially if she is the "follower" of the duo.

I think you are handling it the right way. Sometimes kids embellish a little, and DS may be doing that to some extent. Good that you are checking out the story totally before you react. If it warrants a reaction, then do it right.

Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 04/02/09 07:23 PM
HI Sd, just dropping in to say Hi! i'm still having trouble logging in from home and work!

I know that you ahve the sitch under control and am wishing you the best with the job hunt.

Still supporting you!
Rin
Posted By: Holyheart Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 04/03/09 11:14 PM
Thanks for helping me out on my thread. Nice to know that people care. Just sucks that we're here in the first place.

And I'm thankful that my kids are teenagers with teen attitudes. I shouldn't have to worry about them spending any time living with WH, OW and her 3 kids.

But I really feel for you and the others with younger kids. That breaks my heart.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 04/24/09 02:19 AM
Hey SD. We haven't heard from you in a few weeks. How is the job search, single life, and all things in general?
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 05/18/09 02:49 PM
Gee SD, you promised an update. Let us know how life is after the big D.
Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 05/18/09 03:25 PM
He's probably so busy with his entourage - the Red Rubies - that he doesn't care about us any more!
Posted By: believer Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 05/18/09 05:53 PM
I will be very surprised if he hasn't met a honey. That is very common with our wonderful MB men. If he hasn't, I'll eat my hat.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 05/18/09 06:15 PM
A little birdie told me he is doing some traveling with his kiddos.

laugh
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 05/18/09 06:34 PM
WOW, I thought SD had resurfaced! I got excited for a second! Thanks for the update Fox. I'm sure that he is completely enjoying himself.
Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/12/09 08:23 PM
whistleSD!??

Are you out there?

PS to S4B and others: Seeing it's only little old me blush, sorry if you all thought SD had resurfaced!
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/20/09 07:46 AM
Thanks for asking, Luna. I'm doing well and will post an update when I think of what to say.
Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/20/09 12:28 PM
Hello! Glad to know you are ok.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/21/09 04:48 AM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Thanks for asking, Luna. I'm doing well and will post an update when I think of what to say.

OK, if it's that hard, how about we give you a form to fill out? (answers in red please).

Looks like you are doing well, so how are the kiddies?
Did you find a job yet?
Have you had any hot dates lately?
Have you seen the SCQ?
Is she still with POSOM?
Have you had any body piercings lately? (Queenie started a fad)

OK, it's late and I can't think of anything else to ask. Maybe others can add to it.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/21/09 11:46 AM
Quote
Looks like you are doing well, so how are the kiddies?
Did you find a job yet?
Have you had any hot dates lately?
Have you seen the SCQ?
Is she still with POSOM?
Have you had any body piercings lately? (Queenie started a fad)


I want to know - What is the biggest change in your life since the days of becoming a Sippy Cup Washing Expert?

SD, seriously, we're just curious about YOU. Got to be something going on that is worth sharing with us??!!

Miss you! Was good to see you around this week!

hug
Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/23/09 03:37 PM
SD,

Quote
Thanks for asking, Luna. I'm doing well and will post an update when I think of what to say.

OK.

...so at the very least, we know that....

you are ALIVE and breathing
you are able to type
you may be very very busy, or not!
you are asking us to be patient while you are thinking about what to say to us

...and that at one point, we can be hopeful about learning more about how you are doing.... sigh

....just know, as you can tell, that many of us here think of you often and wonder and hope that you are well!

hugSD flirt
Posted By: cinderella Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/23/09 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by ChaiLover
Have you had any body piercings lately? (Queenie started a fad)

WHAT!!!?????
I missed something.....what is this about?
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/23/09 03:47 PM
Queenie got a nose ring!!!! Well, technically not a "ring" but a stud. Woohoooo......
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/13/10 05:53 PM
Saw you in the "Who's Online" box thingy.

How are you?
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 01/13/10 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by chrisner
Saw you in the "Who's Online" box thingy.

How are you?

Can't hide from this guy SD - he's too sharp.

I want to know how you are doing too.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/04/10 07:48 AM
Hi, All

I didn't drop off the planet or anything. My life has been very, very peaceful. Maybe too peaceful, but I try not to interrupt it when I don't have to.

No job yet, although I did apply for one last week. I look around, and the job market for me is still really slow. If I'm worried about it, though, it is only on a subconscious level. I can go another year if I have to.

The kids are okay. I'm starting to worry that DS10 is suffering--he's been sick for over a month with no clear cause. He's a prime candidate for childhood stress and depression, so I probably need to get him some help.

DD6 seems to be doing better. Her softball season starts tomorrow with the first team practice. I'm managing again, which should be a welcome burst of fun. This year, the team color is blue. Once again, we will have the girls vote on the team name. In an effort to get the parents to get the girls to come prepared to talk about a team name tomorrow, I have suggested via email the Blue Girl Group (with the girls painting their faces blue before each game) and the Blue Light Specials (maybe we can find an old blue siren). My co-manager is probably right, however. It will take a miracle to avoid the Blue Dolphins.

Sporadic dates, but nothing that has stuck. Meeting someone tomorrow for coffee for the first time. Promising.

SCQ is still with POSOM. He still seems to be quite a loser, and I don't think my kids like living in his house half the time, but I don't think she can see that. On the plus-side, she hasn't gone crazy-wayward on me for a long time now, and generally tries to help me out when she can.

I'm still making wooden puzzles and selling them at farmers markets. It's gratifying to make something cool with your own hands and then have people admire it, and it's fun hanging out at the markets--excellent people watching.

So. . . I'm good. I still have loads of unresolved feelings. I still get angry from time to time, especially when I think my kids are suffering from it, and I genuinely think that the world would be a better place without POSOM in it, but infidelity no longer defines me. Life is going on.

Hope 2010 is treating everyone well so far.

--SDG
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/04/10 04:20 PM
SD,

Glad to see you back. Sounds like you are doing well and that is a good thing.

I am shocked that SCQ is still with POSOM. It sounds like they haven't M, so maybe that's a good thing.

Quote
So. . . I'm good. I still have loads of unresolved feelings. I still get angry from time to time, especially when I think my kids are suffering from it, and I genuinely think that the world would be a better place without POSOM in it, but infidelity no longer defines me. Life is going on.

That's to be expected I think. D is a life changing event that we'll probably never forget, but life does go on. I am actually doing much better than I ever expected that I would, but I do have days where the anger erupts.

I am so sorry that it has effected the kids though. I know that you will take care of them because unfortunately SQC will never see it or ever admit that she is the cause.

Hugs to DS10. He needs dad right now, and you are a great dad. He'll know this when he looks back someday.

Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/04/10 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by SD
Maybe too peaceful
Do we need a crash cart?

Originally Posted by SD Bum
I can go another year if I have to.
When can I move in?

Originally Posted by SD Dad
I'm starting to worry that DS10 is suffering--he's been sick for over a month with no clear cause. He's a prime candidate for childhood stress and depression, so I probably need to get him some help.
Get him help. Adultery sucks.

Originally Posted by SD Coach
It will take a miracle to avoid the Blue Dolphins.
Still better than the Blue Moons or the Code Blues.

Originally Posted by SD Sticker
Sporadic dates, but nothing that has stuck.
Think about getting an editor. So nothing got stuck huh?

Originally Posted by SD Stud
Meeting someone tomorrow for coffee for the first time. Promising.
�Exxxxxxxxxxxxxxcellent� � Monty Burns

Originally Posted by SD
SCQ is still with POSOM. He still seems to be quite a loser, and I don't think my kids like living in his house half the time, but I don't think she can see that.
Well the shine has to be off the adultery by now. The torrential gully floods of happy brain chemicals have probably all dried out and she gets to wake up every morning next to a cigarette breath drunk. Sounds great. Hope he snores and sleep farts too.

But he has not got down on bent knee with ring in hand to make an honest adulteress out of her yet? Gollum hasn�t either. What�s up boys? I though you all were stolebaits?

The thrill is gone so to speak. Probably just her determination to not be wrong holding it all together now. Like Wayzilla, I bet that determination to not show the world she screwed up can keep it going for years yet to come.

Sorry for the kids. Did I ever mention adultery sucks? I can�t remember.

Quote
On the plus-side, she hasn't gone crazy-wayward on me for a long time now, and generally tries to help me out when she can.
This is good.

Quote
It's gratifying to make something cool with your own hands and then have people admire it
Maybe you could get a job doing shadow puppets at birthday parties. You could dress like Pennywise and partner with a child therapist.

Quote
So. . . I'm good. I still have loads of unresolved feelings. I still get angry from time to time, especially when I think my kids are suffering from it, and I genuinely think that the world would be a better place without POSOM in it, but infidelity no longer defines me. Life is going on.
Me too.

Quote
and I genuinely think that the world would be a better place without POSOM in it,
Road Trip!

Take care SD.


Posted By: lousygolfer Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/04/10 08:59 PM
SD;

Glad to hear that you are doing well!

LG
Posted By: bitbucket Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/04/10 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by chrisner
Hope he snores and sleep farts too.

Don't forget the DUTCH OVEN!

Originally Posted by chrisner
Road Trip!

Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/04/10 09:34 PM
*lifting helmet visor* Who are you so wise in the ways of the DUTCH OVEN?




I just went back and looked at the original Sippy Cup posts again. Strange days indeed. That was nearly 3-years ago now. What a journey.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/04/10 10:10 PM
Hey GuySmiley!

Chris pretty much said it all, so I'll just Ditto his comments.

Except, did he happen to mention

Adulterty sucks!

Am pleased that overall life is treating you well.

Just curious? What do you have against Dolphins??? laugh

And don't wait so long to check in here!
Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/10 05:30 PM
Hi SD,

Thanks for the update.

Quote
...but infidelity no longer defines me.

Same here....and that is a 'good' place to be, n'est-ce pas?

Keep in touch.

hugSD hug




Posted By: Pepperband Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 02/06/10 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Hi, All

I didn't drop off the planet or anything. My life has been very, very peaceful. Maybe too peaceful, but I try not to interrupt it when I don't have to.

--SDG

Hiya cool SD GUY.
Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 07/15/10 09:53 PM
Bumping up for news on SD

...directly..or indirectly if need be! sigh
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 07/15/10 10:27 PM
Wondering about you too SD. I hope all is well.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 07/16/10 05:47 PM
Hey, thanks for asking. I'm doing well enough.

Like I said over on CL's thread (before I saw this), the SCQ and POSOM got married a couple of months ago. As much as I've tried to let go of things, it was still hurtful, mostly because they chose to celebrate it on the beach and had family come in for it, as if it was a thing of beauty. Predictably, the SCQ said nothing to me about it--I had to hear it from the kids. I've heard nothing from my worthless ex-in-laws. It messed me up for several weeks, but it's faded away now.

The kids are good. DD7 enjoyed the spectacle of the wedding. DS10 complained in the way that a small boy would about a wedding wasting a perfectly good Saturday. If he felt that he was being forced to participate in celebrating the relationship that killed his family, he didn't let on. He worried more about its effect on me, which made me feel bad because I was trying to keep that to myself.

I started working at the lab where I used to be a post-doc. It's not a permanent thing, but it's fun, and it covers my insurance, and it's a beautiful place to work, so it's good for my soul. My lab is in the gray building in the middle left of the photo:

http://www.timeoutofmind.com/images/la_jolla_022306/scripps_pier_022306.jpg

No dates lately. Sometimes I wonder how ready I am. Plus, the kids wear me out when I have them, and I have plenty of things to do when I don't.

I hope everyone is doing well. It's gotten hard for me to come here and read. Don't think that it means that I don't care.
Aw geez MrRollieEyes You stinker. That workplace looks like Fantasy Island. I work(ed) in B'more city. Only slightly less glamorous than your digs smirk

Sorry to hear about the pain over the wedding. I hope you come to peace with it all and move forward with your own life. There are times when I think I've got it much easier than some, because the Z is not with the original OW. Sounds strange, but I think it would be much harder to deal with him in that case.

Take care, GuySmiley.
SD,

So good to hear from you. Time will get you to a place where you feel total indifference. Seriously, anything she does will simply not matter.

The kids will have much more perspective on things as they get older and it sounds like the 10 year old is gaining valuable insight.

A good litmus test for you on dating:

How much do you talk about your ex? That is a big indicator. If you can meet someone and barely discuss it at all then that is a good sign. If that is all you talk about or think about, then don�t date. Nothing says you have to and I strongly recommend you don�t for a good while. If you do, keep it casual and non committal. You don�t need anyone needy and don�t want to be so yourself. I hung out with my D group for a while and we had fun with each other until I eventually graduated from that as well. There comes a point where you simply get tired of the bitter feelings and decide to abandon them.

I got to a point where I really didn�t wish to mention her in any way and even got bothered when others would ask me about her. The fact is I didn�t know or care.

You�ll get there eventually. You also know that the fact that she is in an affairage on top of a mixed family that her odds of D are super high.

But that really doesn�t matter either. I think it would be very tough if an OM was around to be able to move on. That might be a real tough one to let go of.

The interactions in the school will never feel natural. That�s how it feels on my end. I can�t fake being nice. It�s like being around someone you find repulsive but that you have to deal with in an amicable fashion because of your children. So you�ll end up going through the motions as a show, but nothing more. She�ll eventually be with someone else. You might be amicable with him, but your disgust with her will likely not disappear.

Has SCQ made lame attempts at humor around you? That�s awkward when it happens.

Take care of yourself and keep your chin up.
Quote
You also know that the fact that she is in an affairage on top of a mixed family that her odds of D are super high.

Although not in an affairage, and not even married YET, this is what I will face in the future. I will have to 'blend' a family, and it is going to be difficult at best. I have done a lot of reading about divorce, about remarriage and blending families. I come from a step family myself, so I have an idea of what it's like to be a kid in that circumstance. It doesn't feel normal or easy for quite a long time...years.

If these two lovebirds are like so many others whose relationship started from an affair, they will not have done the hard work to fix what they have done wrong in the past. To 'check' themselves, so to speak, and will probably cope with problems in the relationship in a similar manner and destroy their marriage in the process.

Your job, Guy, is to be that safe place for your kids. Not to coddle or accept piss poor behavior or excuse it and to teach them right from wrong, not only with words but through leading by example. I think you've already got a lot of that down. smile

You will find someone when you are ready, Guy. You are obviously just not ready.
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 07/16/10 07:31 PM
Nice digs for a temp job.

If I go 2-blocks from my office door I see this:

[Linked Image from glowlab.blogs.com]


If you could look to the right you would see the stinky Waste Management collection site. It's particularly nice in July.


Sorry about the affairage. Will it last? Who knows. It does not really matter anymore.

Quote
It messed me up for several weeks, but it's faded away now.

Time does work its magic. I am glad you are feeling better.

Quote
He worried more about its effect on me

He's a good kid and he's growing up fast now.


I think you need another trip to Colorado.

Daveco misses you.

Take care SD. Glad you came by.


Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 07/16/10 07:46 PM
SD,

So great to see an update from you, my friend! I feel so bad for you having to work with such a TREMENDOUS view! NOT!

SL made all of the points I had about the SCQ and the affairage, so I won't belabor those points. It is what it is and they are what they are - - We know pretty much how it's going to go from here.

Ditto on SL's comments about the kids. You ARE that safe & NORMAL place for them and always will be. Kudos to you.

Mini TJ - Chris about this

Quote
If you could look to the right you would see the stinky Waste Management collection site. It's particularly nice in July.


Is this a waste mangement site in general or are you naming the specific owner/operating company? You know I gotta ask!
I'm so glad to know that someone else appreciates the unique summer aroma from such a facility - It smells like $$ to me! rotflmao

TJ over.

SD, keep doing what works for you. You will know if/when the time is right for dating. I'm in a fairly similar place. No dates for the last 8 months and that's okay by me.

As you say, plenty to do with and without the kids. As long as YOU are happy with you life, that is all that matters.

Don't be shy about coming to post - - I understand about reading much from others, but sneak in and give us some regular updates. We miss ya!

Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 07/16/10 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Stink Bomb
Is this a waste mangement site in general or are you naming the specific owner/operating company? You know I gotta ask!
I'm so glad to know that someone else appreciates the unique summer aroma from such a facility - It smells like $$ to me! rotflmao


It's operated by Waste Management. It's on Brighton Blvd. 2-blocks away.

What we really like around here is the fat [censored] flys (that's not exactly what we call them) that torment us regularly here nearly year round. This time of year I kill upwards of 10 a day inside my office. Swatters are strategically placed everywhere. In the shop, squirt bottles of brake cleaner do the trick.

One big boy flew into the back of my desk fan two days ago and came out the front in 2-3 pieces with one of them splattering onto my laptop screen. Really? That HAD to happen?

There is a particularly gross species of elongated fly that is absolutly intent on landing on the surface of your eye when you are in the back lot. It's terrible.

We call them the "eye suckers".

I would love it if we could move away from that site.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 07/16/10 09:19 PM
Quote
Has SCQ made lame attempts at humor around you? That�s awkward when it happens.
I'm basically still Plan B'ing her. I see her as little as possible and pretty much ignore her when I do. We communicate via email. It's very civil. She is considerate and accomodating wherever she can be, mostly because I haven't told her what I think. Plan B continues to pay off.

Sometimes I think about relaxing the plan B and talking to her again. Lots of people seem to think that this would be better for the kids (I'm not so sure), and sometimes I think it would be easier, but then I wonder about whether I want to do it while I have all this stuff left unsaid. Like, maybe I could do it after a big plan FU, but that would have its own consequences, and life is simpler with her being dead to me.

Quote
Your job, Guy, is to be that safe place for your kids. Not to coddle or accept piss poor behavior or excuse it and to teach them right from wrong, not only with words but through leading by example.
Yeah, this is what I tell myself. The OMXW called me out of the blue the other day, wanting to talk about the kids' behavior. They are trying to make the blended family work, and the OMXW told me she's trying to support that, because it is now a family unit. I told her pretty bluntly that I don't feel any obligation to support that family. That I'm not doing anything to tear it down, but that I think POSOM is a POS, that the "family" will break down at some point, and I want to protect my kids from that as much as possible. I think it's better that the kids can see with clear eyes rather than through the haze of what the SCQ has been smoking for the past 5 years. So I say things like "what do you think about that?" when the opportunity arises. Simple stuff.

Quote
If you can meet someone and barely discuss it at all then that is a good sign.
The last date I went on turned out to be the night before the affairage ceremony, and it was with a therapist, so I owned up to my situation because I was in the middle of the trigger, and I wound up talking about it too much. I've taken some time after that.

I've been on several dates where it didn't come up at all. Obviously, those are the best, but I'm not trying to hide anything either.


Quote
the stinky Waste Management collection site
They're doing some kind of construction on the cliffside, and so there's a construction dumpster right outside my building. It stinks something awful. Bugs, could you do something about that?
Wow, fantasy island doesn't even do that view justice! Sorry about the affairage, SD. We all know that some day someone worthy of you will come along. Gosh I had forgotten how young your kids were. That is so very sad for them.
Originally Posted by Guy
I'm basically still Plan B'ing her

As I see it, you should continue in this state if/until such a time that you truly feel healed and well enough to exchange more than a sideways glance to SCQ. The communication that you describe with the SCQ is pretty much how I work it with the Z. There is no need for much interaction between DS's mom and dad.

Actually, the more healed you become, the more indifferent you may grow to SCQ, and a byproduct will be little communication anyway

For those of you dealing with the original sin (OP), it has to be a soul sucking experience to interact with your exes.

All the more reason to work in such a lovely place...oh, except for that whole dumpster thing...pooooow baby. MrRollieEyes
"I'm basically still Plan B'ing her. I see her as little as possible and pretty much ignore her when I do. We communicate via email. It's very civil. She is considerate and accomodating wherever she can be, mostly because I haven't told her what I think. Plan B continues to pay off.

Sometimes I think about relaxing the plan B and talking to her again. Lots of people seem to think that this would be better for the kids (I'm not so sure), and sometimes I think it would be easier, but then I wonder about whether I want to do it while I have all this stuff left unsaid. Like, maybe I could do it after a big plan FU, but that would have its own consequences, and life is simpler with her being dead to me."

This is where I am with my WXW. I don't feel a need to change it. There really is no need. Nothings says you have to be friends for the kids to be well. If you treat her as well as you treat the pizza guy, then that's all that can be asked.

As far as OM goes, I would forever treat him as a non entity in your shoes. You don't need to utter a word to him in any way.

If she meets someone else, then that would be a different story (once the affairage ends).

Best of luck.
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 07/17/10 12:58 AM

I'm with you all on the limited interaction with them and the continued Plan B for our own health & wellfare. Although I had another lecture from my Sis tonight about how it would be much better for Ladybugs if Ho2 and I were friends,,,,,,,,,,,but that's another story for another thread.

I also try very hard to let DS and Ladybugs share their feelings about whatever is going on in their lives, even about the wonderful world over at the Drac Dungeon. That alone is enough, being 'friendly' with the Drac would put the BullShite Limit Meter over the top.

While I don't think I can do much about the "eye suckers" (GROSS!) I probably CAN do something about that construction dumpster if it belongs to my company! You have my email, don't you SD? Seriously, I do not want any of my company's equipment out there stinking it up if I can help it! Yep, just email your friendly 'trash lady' and she'll get on it right away!

Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 07/17/10 06:52 PM
SD,

Sorry to hear about the affairage. I'm sure it did mess you up for a period of time. I don't think any of us saw it coming, at least I didn't. I would have bet any amount of money against that A surviving to marriage. Wow. Well, we all know the odds are against it. Isn't that POSOM's third anyway?

I wish I could tell you how to let go, but I still struggle with it too. I'll be fine for months then BAM, a trigger. I guess it takes a lot more time than just 3 years.

A lady I know told me this morning that she is just now at that stage and it took her 10 years. Her XWH married a 20 year younger woman who now is mid 40s and he is mid 60s. My friend's son tells her that the OW now goes out with friends and leaves him home all of the time, and that he just bought long term care insurance because he knows that should he get sick she'll bolt. It's never what they think, but usually too late by the time they figure it all out.

Take your time on things. We'll heal in our own time, but I guess we just have to guard against getting stuck in the rut.
I don't know, but I think working where you work would do a world of good for the soul. Not many of us have that view! When I worked downtown I got to look at the beautiful muddy river.

Come by once in a while. It is painful to read here, but remember that we are your supporters and the only ones who understand where you are.
Posted By: lunamare Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 08/07/10 09:22 AM
Hi SD,

I appreciated reading your update.

Know that we all care very much about you, what you are doing and how you are feeling.

Keep doing what it takes to heal you, and take care of your kids.hug
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 09/14/10 03:30 AM
Well SD, I've spotted you driving around here lately but you haven't given us an update. No drive-bys allowed without an update so spill it.......
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 09/16/10 07:26 AM
Hi, All

Thanks, as always, for the kind words about my updates. Things are going pretty well and could get a lot better. My appointment at the Oceanographic Institute is up in a couple of weeks, but I'll probably continue to hang out there as an unpaid volunteer for a while. The better news is that a job popped up the other day with one of the local biotechs, and I have both just the experience they're looking for as well as contacts on the inside. Promising.

If that doesn't pan out, I can go back to doing the beach bum/stay at home dad/volunteer researcher gig and look for consulting opportunities. Either are okay by me, at least for now.

And then there's my intelligent, gorgeous, eloquent co-worker. She's almost all the way divorced from a controlling, semi-abusive doctor. Two kids younger than mine, and having a hard time with the whole thing. Doesn't know what she's going to do next career-wise, and really in an unsettled place in her life. I recognized early on that she doesn't really need the distraction of a guy in her life and tried to keep my distance, but, of course, I fell for her anyway.

She's understandably reluctant, but we kind of found ourselves out for drinks last weekend and had a really great time--the kind of intoxicating, breath-taking evening I remember LilSis telling me about when she first met her guy. She plays her cards pretty close to the vest while I'm searching my pockets to see whether I have any left that aren't already out on the table, thus I've already told her I'll do my best not to take advantage of the unsettled place she's at in her life, I won't rush or demand more time than she has to give, I won't come between her and her kids, etc. There's a part of me that thinks that the responsible thing to do is to just back off until she's really ready, but she fits Believer's trifecta of being younger, hotter, and richer than the SCQ, and my knees get kind of weak when she smiles at me, and it makes it hard to just back off.

Advice is welcome, but know that she may be reading this. I was trying to get her to read on the divorcing boards just to know that other people are going through the same kinds of things and mentioned my thread on here, and she said she started reading this. Was that bad? This is a pretty long thread, so if she started from the beginning, I should have have time to edit out the stuff I don't want her to read. Which stuff is that, anyway?

Ah, well. It keeps life interesting. I was in such a good mood after our night out that I actually talked with the SCQ at DS10's baseball game the next day. So over her.

Oh, yeah, the kids. They're good.

Hope everyone's doing well.
Posted By: atena Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 09/16/10 07:34 AM
Are you D already?
How long on plan B?
blessing
The first time I saw AZman after 20 years, I think I fell in love right on the spot. As you know, we have taken it very very slowly, due to the long distance relationship. Lots of phone conversations, texts, talking of raising our children, and also discussing divorce, infidelity, AND how to avoid it.

Take it slow. Let her get thru the divorce, Guy.

Even after I filed for divorce, I had emotional things to work thru.

For me, all turned out ok, after some large boulders in the road.
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 09/16/10 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by SL
Take it slow. Let her get thru the divorce, Guy.
Yes Yes Yes and even then........

She's not ready. Rebound relationships can be devastating for women. Ask Bugs or DGS.

Quote
There's a part of me that thinks that the responsible thing to do is to just back off until she's really ready, but she fits Believer's trifecta of being younger, hotter, and richer than the SCQ, and my knees get kind of weak when she smiles at me, and it makes it hard to just back off.
Time for a 5-mile jog on the beach and a cold shower.


Quote
This is a pretty long thread, so if she started from the beginning, I should have have time to edit out the stuff I don't want her to read. Which stuff is that, anyway?
My stuff. Some of BC's too.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 09/16/10 08:24 PM
Some supporters you guys are. Killjoys.

But seriously, the caution is noted and is what I knew I would hear. I've invited her to tell me when to back off, and she's smart enough to know when to use that.

Got another call today about a job lead, so things are looking good.
Originally Posted by chrisner
My stuff. Some of BC's too.

YA THINK? rotflmao

I dunno, there was a time when we lightened the very dark mood around these parts, and that was not a bad thing...or was it? confused

Oh, whatever...

GuySmiley, I just finished a marathon of an interview Tuesday, and it seems they want me back for another face to face next Wednesday. If I don't get the job, I'll chauk it up as experience in the interview process. That way I don't feel like a unhireable POS! rotflmao

It's all about perspective and attitude smirk
Posted By: Bugsmom Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 09/17/10 05:39 PM

SD,

Speaking from personal experience, I have multiple things to say. First, that funny feeling you are getting when she smiles = FABULOUS! I am happy for you. Having that feeling once again after being drug thru he77 of a wayward divorce is pretty darn nice.

AND it can easily be Overwhelming. Despite our having learned so much and changed so much and understanding of where we were, where we want to go with new relationships and where we will never allow ourselves to go again,,,,,,,,,,, that wonderful feeling is also fraught with danger.

For Both of You.

You are one of the Good Guys. I know you want to do the right thing for you both and will make every effort.

However, I must point out some things that you should consider on HER behalf. She may or may not be aware of them herself. I know I wasn't when I entered my relationship with R, and I was divorced for 1.5 years when that relationship started. If she's still in the final process,,,she is at a different place.

I knew that caution was the order of the day when considering a relationship. I knew all of the things that I didn't want to have happen again. I had my boundaries and was prepared to enforce them.

And I did.

For the 'most part'.

But you see, that feeling *I* got when R would treat me in such a special, caring manner was overwhelming. The sting of the hurt Drac caused in me was still there and having R in my life helped ease that sting.

Finally, SOMEONE cared about me! Someone looked at me in that 'special' way. Someone called me to ask how I was doing. Someone wanted to spend time with me. Just those simple things meant SO much.

And it clouded SO much, too. It clouded my ability to see past superficial things to understand/see R's motivations. It clouded my ability (and even willingness) to look closely and honestly at R's history or to question things about him that were suspect.

I wasn't realistic that while a great deal of my feelings about R had to do with R, a large portion also had to do with Drac.

Honestly, I have yet to work through it all. I just know that that first time is one that needs to be done with great caution. I know you have taken your time and are ready. My concern is that she has a ways to go. Not to say that there is anything wrong with her - it's just that there is a time and process that people need after divorce before being at the right place for a new relationship.

I know that no matter what happens, she will benefit from knowing you. You will be a great help to her during a difficult time. You can help her along the path.

I just worry that you will have put in a lot of yourself into this and when she is through the process, she will be at a different place that may very well not be able to include you moving forward.

One thing I'd like to point out is in your own words-

Quote
I was in such a good mood after our night out that I actually talked with the SCQ at DS10's baseball game the next day. So over her.


I just ask that you think back over the time from where you came here to the moment you were able to do this and feel this way. Your intelligent, gorgeous, eloquent co-worker is at the very beginning of that journey.

I hope that if she reads this that she understands this is nothing peronal against her in any way. She mut be a very special person for you to be interested in a relationship with her! I am just expressing my concerns, as YOU are a VERY special person and mean a lot to many of us here. We want the very best for you!!

And YOU are the best judge of that. So take my 2 cents and spend it how you choose (or not).

Glad the kids are well and the job front is lookiing promising!!


Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 09/17/10 06:45 PM
They'd have to be fools not to want you working for them, SL, with as much wisdom as you carry around in your head. I hope the Wednesday revisit goes well. I'm sure it will.

You know, I was reading the earlier part of my thread last night and kind of marveled at the poor [censored] who was going through all that crap. How hard he fought to control the situation, how he tilted at the windmills and got mad because the sky is blue, how hard he clung instead of letting go. How bad he wanted to "save" his family.

That guy is gone. He's been replaced by a wiser, kinder, happier, healthier, better guy. I sing again. I find myself wanting to dance. I smile and engage with people and am fun to be around. And why not.

I say this largely for those of you reading who are still in the middle of your crises. Things will get better. You will get through this, one way or another, and your life *will* get better. I promise you. I wish I had the energy and fortitude to come around to all your threads and advise and console and encourage you the way SO many wonderful people did for me, and to them I will be eternally grateful.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 09/17/10 07:02 PM
No activity on this thread for months, and then I cross post. Go figure.

Thanks for your thoughts, Bugsy. Well thought out and succintly expressed. I think we both understand that there are red flags all over the place. As much as I would like to get carried away with it, I'm working very hard not to.
Posted By: chrisner Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 09/17/10 07:11 PM
Quote
That guy is gone. He's been replaced by a wiser, kinder, happier, healthier, better guy. I sing again. I find myself wanting to dance. I smile and engage with people and am fun to be around. And why not.


You finaly got a handle on Sippy Cups and chocolate milk too.


Quote
I was reading the earlier part of my thread last night

I went 2-2 1/2 years back on Cowgirl's thread yesterday for no particular reason. It was one of those SD/SL/BC/James/chrisner 30 post deals while Cowgirl was actually working.

It was the day she made her "breaking in her wet filly" comment.

A lot of marriages were helped that day.

What a life saving environment this place was in those dark and seemingly hopeless days.


Quote
I say this largely for those of you reading who are still in the middle of your crises. Things will get better. You will get through this, one way or another, and your life *will* get better. I promise you.

True DAT!

Quote
I sing again.

How are your neighbors handling that?
Originally Posted by GuySmiley
They'd have to be fools not to want you working for them, SL, with as much wisdom as you carry around in your head. I hope the Wednesday revisit goes well. I'm sure it will.

They aren't mind readers MrRollieEyes. It's probably just as well...the whole time I'm interviewing I am having conflicting thoughts about working full time again, about sacrificing time with DS8. sigh I've never had this much worry free time off of work and it has spoiled me.

I read the earlier part of my thread, and that thread started at the beginning of my FINAL false recovery of three. It was so eye opening. I was sooooo closed off from the Z, who showed no interst in beginning the mountain climb we had ahead of us. I had allowed so much more damage to myself.

I love reading that you are so happy. What a joy to know your hard work has paid off.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 09/20/10 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by Coach
I went 2-2 1/2 years back on Cowgirl's thread yesterday for no particular reason. It was one of those SD/SL/BC/James/chrisner 30 post deals while Cowgirl was actually working. It was the day she made her "breaking in her wet filly" comment.

sigh That is NOT what I said!

I knew I should have put a lock on the door of my thread before I left!

wink

Seriously, though, those jokes and goofing around by everyone saved me on some days.

Guy Smiley, they've all given the warnings so I won't repeat them. You know the drill.

I will say, though, that it CAN help for her to know that she was attractive and that she is "want-able." We all know how we felt after d-day. I for one felt like no one would ever want me. WxH knew me better than anyone else and HE didn't want me, who else in their right mind would?

Just be careful.

She'd be lucky to have you - when the time is right.

hug Fox

Posted By: My4Loves Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 10/23/11 02:18 PM
Just made it through this Thread -how are things Guy? Any update?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 03/14/13 03:29 PM
SDGuy .... Can you check in please?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/15/13 06:51 AM
Hi, Pep. Thanks for checking in on me. It looks like the timing of the inquiry was right after Chrisner's death, which was only a few weeks after my mom died suddenly. Looking back, I don't think I had any room to really process his death. I chatted with SL and Foxy and LG and with his daughter, but didn't really think to come here. An update is long overdue.

I've been thinking for a long time that I needed some kind of Epilogue to the Continuing Adventures of SDGuy--that I owed it to this community after all it gave me (and since I don't seem to have the stomach to frequent the board to try to help new folks), but I could never really decide what it was I wanted to say. I think I have an idea or two now, but they aren't really anything that hasn't been said before.

Update first. My life is good. Before my mom died, I was using the word "lucky" to describe myself again. (Now I say that I'm lucky that she was my mom as long as she was.)

I have a great job, doing meaningful work with smart, good people. People respect me and my work, and I earn a comfortable living.

My children are thriving. We split custody 50:50, but because I kept the family house, the kids go to school here, and they come to my house after school every day. The SCQ (wow, feels funny to type that) picks them up from here on her days. They are used to the back and forth, and I'm pretty sure that I feel much worse about it than they do. If they are suffering ill effects of divorce, I can't see them.

I am on very good terms with the SCQ now. We have friendly chats and texts about the kids. Not super warm, of course, because I can still trigger myself thinking about things, and I also still believe the world would be a better place without POSOM in it. Yes, they married and are still together, and for the most part I don't care. He is their stepfather. I deal with it. I think that the SCQ goes out of her way to keep me happy. If I ask for anything like extra time with the kids or a schedule change, I get it. She does all the transporting between houses (until very recently, I had never been to their house). It feels like she knows she owes me a debt she can never fully repay (which, of course, she does).

And I have companionship in my life. I had been flirting with a woman when I last posted here, and we've been together ever since. Our kid schedules are synced, and so when we don't have our kids, she's at my place. It's very comfortable. To paraphrase Believer, she is younger, hotter, and smarter than the SCQ--she complements and challenges me in ways the SCQ could have never dreamed of.

I feel pretty sure that I am better off than I would have been if the SCQ had come back. Probably a lot better off.

So, advice. This goes out mostly to those who are in the same spot that I and so many of my MB friends (the Killer Bees) were in--betrayed spouses facing a Plan B.

1) It will get better. It may take a while, but you will recover and be a better, stronger, wiser person on the other side. It's so much better to be the betrayed spouse than the wayward spouse.

2) If you are thinking about Plan B as a tool to get your spouse to return to you, stop. Chances are your spouse is not coming back to you. Regardless, the point of plan B is to create enough space for you to keep some sanity while your wayward spouse does whatever it is they're going to do. Don't obsess over what they are doing, don't try to influence them, don't let them infect you with their madness. Protect yourself from them. Take care of yourself. Treat yourself when you can. Take up a hobby or two.

The trick is to think about moving on and live as if you are going to be moving on without actually moving on. For as long as you feel like doing it. The longer you can do it, the better the odds that your spouse will return (however slight they are).

I don't regret trying as hard as I did because I still believe my children would have been better off in an intact family. Like I said before, though, I'm better off that things worked out the way they did.

Sorry, that's probably really long. Thanks for reading it (if you got this far).

To any who still remember me, sorry I haven't been around. I hope your lives are good.

SDG
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/15/13 01:17 PM
Hi SDG, thanks so much for coming back and giving us an update. It always makes me smile inside to read of a BH ending up with a happy life and great woman! Good for you! smile
I concur with your Plan B....well...plan. smirk

You sound great.

If not for you, Chrisner, foxy, LG and a few others, I may have sank into the oblivion. Y'all helped me keep my head above water. I am forever grateful.
Posted By: Loyal2afault Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/15/13 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
It's so much better to be the betrayed spouse than the wayward spouse.
SDG, could you elaborate on this a bit? I am a BW (WW moved in with OW 5 months ago) and I am curious as to why you say this.
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/16/13 04:54 PM
Quote
SDG, could you elaborate on this a bit? I am a BW (WW moved in with OW 5 months ago) and I am curious as to why you say this.


So, the way I look at it is there are essentially two possibilities. The WS has violated the most sacred and important trust of their life. Either

1) they have to spend the rest of their life dealing with the guilt and shame, or

2) they don't feel any guilt or shame after having violated that sacred trust.

Would you want to be either of those people?

I think it comes down to how you feel about living the right way and doing the right thing. Yes, it sucked to be the betrayed spouse, and it sucked hard, but I can live the rest of my life knowing that I did the right thing. This is worth a lot to me.

Or maybe I'm just a masochist. I mean, I am a Cubs fan, after all.

P.S. Sorry for your situation. It sucks. Thanks for coming by my thread.
Posted By: Loyal2afault Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/16/13 10:45 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
So, the way I look at it is there are essentially two possibilities. The WS has violated the most sacred and important trust of their life. Either

1) they have to spend the rest of their life dealing with the guilt and shame, or

2) they don't feel any guilt or shame after having violated that sacred trust.

Would you want to be either of those people?

I think it comes down to how you feel about living the right way and doing the right thing. Yes, it sucked to be the betrayed spouse, and it sucked hard, but I can live the rest of my life knowing that I did the right thing. This is worth a lot to me.
Thanks for the explanation, it makes sense. I would tell my WW it is not what you did so much as what you do. How a person cleans up their side of the street (or doesn't) speaks volumes about them as a person. When someone shows you their true character, believe them.

I do believe WSs can resolve their guilt and shame and not live with it for the rest of their lives. They, of course, will live with knowing what they did for the rest of their lives, but don't you think they can resolve it? There are FWS on this board that appear to have done just that.

Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/16/13 11:48 PM
I absolutely believe that they can resolve it, and I certainly don't mean to slam any of the FWS here on the board. FWS that come to this board are very much in the minority and are to be commended.

Quote
I would tell my WW it is not what you did so much as what you do.

This is spot on. If I hadn't believed this, I wouldn't have hung around in Plan B as long as I did. I don't think that the SCQ ever believed it, though. I think she believed that there was no amount of atonement that could ever heal the damage (of course, this viewpoint aided her Alien thinking, which was to get away to be with OM).

I also think that the vast majority of WS don't ever resolve it. They hover somewhere between the two scenarios I posed. I remember when I was active on the boards, a pretty common sentiment from BS was "Just once I'd like to get an actual, heartfelt apology that honestly acknowledges the hurt that was caused." Lots of people were hoping for that while knowing that they were almost certainly never going to get it.
Posted By: Loyal2afault Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/17/13 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
I remember when I was active on the boards, a pretty common sentiment from BS was "Just once I'd like to get an actual, heartfelt apology that honestly acknowledges the hurt that was caused." Lots of people were hoping for that while knowing that they were almost certainly never going to get it.
Did you ever get a heartfelt apology?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/19/13 10:16 PM
Nope. Some fog-laced "I never meant for this to happen" type stuff fairly early on, and it's been implied since, but nothing that felt like it really captured the magnitude. To be fair, I think she acknowledged that there's no amount of apology that could make up for what she did.

It would be welcome if she ever did it, but it's not really in her character. Besides, forgiveness is something I do for me. I have mostly forgiven her. Occasionally, in the words of my former therapist, I take it back momentarily. But not often.

Hey, look, D-Day is 8 years ago tomorrow.
Posted By: Loyal2afault Re: The continuing Adventures of SDGuy - 11/20/13 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by sdguy038
Hey, look, D-Day is 8 years ago tomorrow.
How has today been for you?
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