Notable Posts - 03/06/07 01:59 AM
Trueheart's letter - 03/06/07 02:16 AM
[color:"red"] Trueheart's Letter [/color]
[color:"blue"] Thank you for taking the time and effort to read this letter. I am writing this in hopes that your BS has brought you here in order that you might understand you are not alone in your thoughts and feelings. It is intended to give you a measure of comfort and hope that you can feel safe as you come out the fog that has enveloped you so tightly over the past weeks, months, or years.
I do not know m any of you by name, nor do I know of all the details or circumstances surrounding your life, or your affair(s). What I do know is that we share two very important things in our lives and makes us somewhat connected as a WS. I am hoping that I can help you come back to the light, so that you can come back to the light that has, for so long, shielded you with that dense fog you may still be in.
The first thing that we share is the love of a person that totally, completely, and unconditionally stand by our side. Through thick and thin, for better or worse, in our darkest hours, we have someone that has always believed in us, and still does. They have put up with our lies, our anger, our accusations, and maybe in some cases verbal and/or physical abusiveness. They have watched us trash us the things they believed in more than anything in the world...our marriage, our vows, our trust and our love. In spite of it all, they see in us their hopes, their dreams, and their futures. They can't, nor do they want to, see themselves without us for the rest of their lives. They accept our imperfections and our infidelity as we have strayed from that which we know is wrong. They have continued to believe in us and want to help us right the ship and stay the course. They are willing to forgive us, grant us our mistakes, and come home to rebuild that life and make it better. They know they are not perfect, as well.
They know they have made mistakes. They need us to open up, talk to them and give them answers so that they can learn, heal, and help repair the damage. They will accept their responsibility in these things. Can you?
We, most of us, alsoe have children that look at us, and see only the love of a Mom or a Dad. They don't see us as imperfect, scared, or angry. They see us as a shelter, a safe haven where they can laugh, cry, hurt, be silly or serious, and tell us their fears or fantasies. We are their safety net when they fall. They look to us for answers in life, no matter how big or small the answers are. Our life changed, no matter much we didn't want it to when we helped create that life. We owe our children the best chance to learn from us. We owe them our unconditional, total, and complete love, so that they can start on the journey with as few bumps and bruises as possible. They look to you for truth in their lives. To deny them that chance, is a travesty.
You took an oath, in your heart and mind, to protect and defend and teach YOUR child, as soon as they were created. So, you see, you have people in your life that believe in you, love you, accept you, want you, need you, cherish you, and the list goes on and on.
I know for a fact, that many of you, when with the OP, badmouth your spouse. You tell the OP how they do all the right things, fill you up, make you feel alive, do all the things your spouse does not, or used to do. You tell this person they are everything you ever wanted. They arouse you, they make you happy...interesting how you told your spouse that at one time too. And, the truth is, if you were to search your heart, you are not letting them do that now. They want to, they beg you to let them try...you justify your A, by telling them "I just don't feel that for you anymore", "I don't know if I want to be married anymore", "I dont know what I want", and a myriad of other flimsy reasons and excuses to buy time to spend with the OP. You give justifications that are so superficial they can't hold water.
We even search our minds to think of everything that our spouse ever did, no matter how insignificant, how long ago it was, in order to make us feel better about cheating. We can find any reason to blame our spouse for US deciding and making a conscious choice to cheat and find a reason to say it is ok.
What we should be doing is finding every reason for our BS to forgive us. We should be finding every reason to stay together, to come home, to make it right, to be a family...loving and supportive, forgiving and trusting. And you know what? Those reasons are there...everyday...the smile, the laugh, the tears, the love....they are there each and everyday!! Just look!!!
The second thing we share is the fact that we are all weak!! I know full well the pain, anger, frustration, fear, embarrassment, passion, fun, laughter, love, fear, and all the rest of the wide range of emotions of having an A.
I know what is like to have that OP fill up your senses...so full and so fast you wonder how you ever made it without them. The sex is great, the passion is overwhelming, you can't wait to see them, touch them, hear them...all the while drifting further and further from your marriage...lost in the fog. NO matter how we justify it, that other person...is a cheater, as well. They know we are married and they choose to cheat with us. And in many cases, probably have before, and have told the other person they are with, all the same, exact things they tell us. "You are my soulmate" "you are the only one for me" etc etc. We have heard em all and said em all. We have been told they can make us happy "for the rest of our lives". WE have been so blinded by it all, that we give up family and friends we have had for years, in order for this OP to feel safe with us and convince them how we feel. We take all the energies that we don't use at home, and give them to someone "new". We spend money, time, and energy to build something with someone exciting, instead of spending that with someone that knows us and truly loves us.
You see, the truth is, that we, both members of the affair, are very good at one thing....telling each other exactly what we want to hear. We put together elaborate speeches, write poetry, find mushy cards, send the "perfect" gifts, say the right things...all for this other person. Both of us continue to hone our "cheating" skills to the point of perfection. What ever happened to doing that to your spouse, instead of leaving them at the side of the road with a flat tire? We have derailed their entire life and emotionally checked out...in order to make us feel better about the affair. That simply isn't right. We took years to build something. We may have taken several years to weaken the foundation of it. But in one simple night of lust, and that is what it is, lust, we tried to destroy it. If we truly "loved" this person, if we truly believed what we were doing is right, true, and good, there would be no indecision on our part. There would be no hesitancy at all.
The bottom line is that, you can trust the person you are cheating with less than you can trust yourself. It is a proven fact that only 25% of all affairs ever make it. Deep down in your heart, you still love your spouse, and you know it. You don't want to give up the excitement and passion you have found. The truth is that your marriage will never again go back to what it was. The blind faith in each other is gone....it is replaced with doubt and fear. The wonderful thing is that you now have a chance to "rediscover" your spouse, your marriage, and your family.
It is not as hard as you may think, but will take some dedication on your part. But the beauty of the whole thing is you will be stronger and more in love than you ever thought you could be. You create new memories, new routines, a new life. You re-commit, reinvest your time and energies in that which truly loves you.
The truth is most affairs end when the OP either gets what they thought they needed from you, and even more of them end when the OP finds another WS. Oddly enough, you weren't enough for them either. In the end you are left with no loving spouse, no children, no family, no friends.....and your OP that was so steadfastly dedicated to you is off romping with "the love of their life".
I know from whence I speak, my friends. I know of the pain, the sorrow, the hurt, the look in my childrens eyes when I left the house. I hear the sounds of my W crying, begging, pleading, and hurting. I now see what a fool I was.
I now spend everyday, more happy than I ever thought I could be. If the world were to end tomorrow, she would know I loved her as no other. No, she won't ever forget about the A, and along the way, there will be things that will trigger her mind, but, she has forgiven. You need to talk to your spouse to help them. YOU are the only one that can help them. They need you, much more now than ever before. You have to swallow that pride of yours, for them to heal. You have to open your life up to them, and hide nothing. You have to make it about them. The affair was making it about you, so now you owe it to them, no matter how embarrassed you are, no matter how much you don't wnat to talk about it, to make it about them. Their piece of mind, their feelings are all that matter.
They know, from being here, what they need to do in order to help meet your needs. It is now up to you, to learn what you need to do in order to meet theirs. And make no mistake about it, it will be hard work, but it is oh so worth it!! This person you married, is willing to work with you in order to show you the love you deserve!!
Are you willing to work to show them how much you truly love them??
By being here, at Marriage Builders, they have shown that they are willing to adopt the principles that it takes to put their marriage back together. They have pledged their love, and even their support, to your recovery, as well as theirs. They have accepted the crumbs you have offered them, while knowing full well you were at the buffet with the other person in your life.
You have one of the strongest, most committed, most wonderful, loving, and caring people in the world on your side. Don't expect them not be angry from time to time. Don't expect them to be perfect, let you off the hook, and not talk about it with you. They need and want to understand you and all the things surrounding what happened. It is part of the healing process.
What you can expect is love, honesty, and the rebuilding of your marriage.
They know what it takes to make things work now. They also know that they, as well as you, have to be stronger than ever before in their life, if this is going to work. That is why they are still here...they understand.
They even know, that you may backslide in the beginning, but are willing to deal with that, in order to preserve and protect that which they believe in ......YOU. I implore you, WS, burn off the fog. See the sand that is your foundation for the affair. There is no solid basis for this relationship..it is all smoke and mirrors that reflects this "love" you have found. Run, do not walk, back home and give your marriage all the energy, gifts, poems, cards, and love that you have given to the affair. The results are remarkable. But you have to be willing to be honest with yourself, first of all. You have to admit there is a problem, and you have to be willing to fix it, with your spouse, a counselor, whatever or whoever it takes to fix it. You have to be willing to want to be there in mind, body, and spirit. You will find a love more wonderful than anything you knew before.
I hope this helps, in some way, to show you what life can be after an affair. I know that I am blessed with the most wonderful person. I was given the opportunity to feel what life was like without her, and it was not what I wanted. I found the answers I sought...I found them both here, and in her arms. I can only hope, that in some small way, you find the same thing, and that I helped the fog to lift. If you ever wish to talk to someone who understands what we WS go through, then feel free to write *edit* There is a path back home. You need only choose it! Keep the faith!
*Out of our greatest fears, come our bravest deeds!*
Truehear [/color]
[color:"blue"] Thank you for taking the time and effort to read this letter. I am writing this in hopes that your BS has brought you here in order that you might understand you are not alone in your thoughts and feelings. It is intended to give you a measure of comfort and hope that you can feel safe as you come out the fog that has enveloped you so tightly over the past weeks, months, or years.
I do not know m any of you by name, nor do I know of all the details or circumstances surrounding your life, or your affair(s). What I do know is that we share two very important things in our lives and makes us somewhat connected as a WS. I am hoping that I can help you come back to the light, so that you can come back to the light that has, for so long, shielded you with that dense fog you may still be in.
The first thing that we share is the love of a person that totally, completely, and unconditionally stand by our side. Through thick and thin, for better or worse, in our darkest hours, we have someone that has always believed in us, and still does. They have put up with our lies, our anger, our accusations, and maybe in some cases verbal and/or physical abusiveness. They have watched us trash us the things they believed in more than anything in the world...our marriage, our vows, our trust and our love. In spite of it all, they see in us their hopes, their dreams, and their futures. They can't, nor do they want to, see themselves without us for the rest of their lives. They accept our imperfections and our infidelity as we have strayed from that which we know is wrong. They have continued to believe in us and want to help us right the ship and stay the course. They are willing to forgive us, grant us our mistakes, and come home to rebuild that life and make it better. They know they are not perfect, as well.
They know they have made mistakes. They need us to open up, talk to them and give them answers so that they can learn, heal, and help repair the damage. They will accept their responsibility in these things. Can you?
We, most of us, alsoe have children that look at us, and see only the love of a Mom or a Dad. They don't see us as imperfect, scared, or angry. They see us as a shelter, a safe haven where they can laugh, cry, hurt, be silly or serious, and tell us their fears or fantasies. We are their safety net when they fall. They look to us for answers in life, no matter how big or small the answers are. Our life changed, no matter much we didn't want it to when we helped create that life. We owe our children the best chance to learn from us. We owe them our unconditional, total, and complete love, so that they can start on the journey with as few bumps and bruises as possible. They look to you for truth in their lives. To deny them that chance, is a travesty.
You took an oath, in your heart and mind, to protect and defend and teach YOUR child, as soon as they were created. So, you see, you have people in your life that believe in you, love you, accept you, want you, need you, cherish you, and the list goes on and on.
I know for a fact, that many of you, when with the OP, badmouth your spouse. You tell the OP how they do all the right things, fill you up, make you feel alive, do all the things your spouse does not, or used to do. You tell this person they are everything you ever wanted. They arouse you, they make you happy...interesting how you told your spouse that at one time too. And, the truth is, if you were to search your heart, you are not letting them do that now. They want to, they beg you to let them try...you justify your A, by telling them "I just don't feel that for you anymore", "I don't know if I want to be married anymore", "I dont know what I want", and a myriad of other flimsy reasons and excuses to buy time to spend with the OP. You give justifications that are so superficial they can't hold water.
We even search our minds to think of everything that our spouse ever did, no matter how insignificant, how long ago it was, in order to make us feel better about cheating. We can find any reason to blame our spouse for US deciding and making a conscious choice to cheat and find a reason to say it is ok.
What we should be doing is finding every reason for our BS to forgive us. We should be finding every reason to stay together, to come home, to make it right, to be a family...loving and supportive, forgiving and trusting. And you know what? Those reasons are there...everyday...the smile, the laugh, the tears, the love....they are there each and everyday!! Just look!!!
The second thing we share is the fact that we are all weak!! I know full well the pain, anger, frustration, fear, embarrassment, passion, fun, laughter, love, fear, and all the rest of the wide range of emotions of having an A.
I know what is like to have that OP fill up your senses...so full and so fast you wonder how you ever made it without them. The sex is great, the passion is overwhelming, you can't wait to see them, touch them, hear them...all the while drifting further and further from your marriage...lost in the fog. NO matter how we justify it, that other person...is a cheater, as well. They know we are married and they choose to cheat with us. And in many cases, probably have before, and have told the other person they are with, all the same, exact things they tell us. "You are my soulmate" "you are the only one for me" etc etc. We have heard em all and said em all. We have been told they can make us happy "for the rest of our lives". WE have been so blinded by it all, that we give up family and friends we have had for years, in order for this OP to feel safe with us and convince them how we feel. We take all the energies that we don't use at home, and give them to someone "new". We spend money, time, and energy to build something with someone exciting, instead of spending that with someone that knows us and truly loves us.
You see, the truth is, that we, both members of the affair, are very good at one thing....telling each other exactly what we want to hear. We put together elaborate speeches, write poetry, find mushy cards, send the "perfect" gifts, say the right things...all for this other person. Both of us continue to hone our "cheating" skills to the point of perfection. What ever happened to doing that to your spouse, instead of leaving them at the side of the road with a flat tire? We have derailed their entire life and emotionally checked out...in order to make us feel better about the affair. That simply isn't right. We took years to build something. We may have taken several years to weaken the foundation of it. But in one simple night of lust, and that is what it is, lust, we tried to destroy it. If we truly "loved" this person, if we truly believed what we were doing is right, true, and good, there would be no indecision on our part. There would be no hesitancy at all.
The bottom line is that, you can trust the person you are cheating with less than you can trust yourself. It is a proven fact that only 25% of all affairs ever make it. Deep down in your heart, you still love your spouse, and you know it. You don't want to give up the excitement and passion you have found. The truth is that your marriage will never again go back to what it was. The blind faith in each other is gone....it is replaced with doubt and fear. The wonderful thing is that you now have a chance to "rediscover" your spouse, your marriage, and your family.
It is not as hard as you may think, but will take some dedication on your part. But the beauty of the whole thing is you will be stronger and more in love than you ever thought you could be. You create new memories, new routines, a new life. You re-commit, reinvest your time and energies in that which truly loves you.
The truth is most affairs end when the OP either gets what they thought they needed from you, and even more of them end when the OP finds another WS. Oddly enough, you weren't enough for them either. In the end you are left with no loving spouse, no children, no family, no friends.....and your OP that was so steadfastly dedicated to you is off romping with "the love of their life".
I know from whence I speak, my friends. I know of the pain, the sorrow, the hurt, the look in my childrens eyes when I left the house. I hear the sounds of my W crying, begging, pleading, and hurting. I now see what a fool I was.
I now spend everyday, more happy than I ever thought I could be. If the world were to end tomorrow, she would know I loved her as no other. No, she won't ever forget about the A, and along the way, there will be things that will trigger her mind, but, she has forgiven. You need to talk to your spouse to help them. YOU are the only one that can help them. They need you, much more now than ever before. You have to swallow that pride of yours, for them to heal. You have to open your life up to them, and hide nothing. You have to make it about them. The affair was making it about you, so now you owe it to them, no matter how embarrassed you are, no matter how much you don't wnat to talk about it, to make it about them. Their piece of mind, their feelings are all that matter.
They know, from being here, what they need to do in order to help meet your needs. It is now up to you, to learn what you need to do in order to meet theirs. And make no mistake about it, it will be hard work, but it is oh so worth it!! This person you married, is willing to work with you in order to show you the love you deserve!!
Are you willing to work to show them how much you truly love them??
By being here, at Marriage Builders, they have shown that they are willing to adopt the principles that it takes to put their marriage back together. They have pledged their love, and even their support, to your recovery, as well as theirs. They have accepted the crumbs you have offered them, while knowing full well you were at the buffet with the other person in your life.
You have one of the strongest, most committed, most wonderful, loving, and caring people in the world on your side. Don't expect them not be angry from time to time. Don't expect them to be perfect, let you off the hook, and not talk about it with you. They need and want to understand you and all the things surrounding what happened. It is part of the healing process.
What you can expect is love, honesty, and the rebuilding of your marriage.
They know what it takes to make things work now. They also know that they, as well as you, have to be stronger than ever before in their life, if this is going to work. That is why they are still here...they understand.
They even know, that you may backslide in the beginning, but are willing to deal with that, in order to preserve and protect that which they believe in ......YOU. I implore you, WS, burn off the fog. See the sand that is your foundation for the affair. There is no solid basis for this relationship..it is all smoke and mirrors that reflects this "love" you have found. Run, do not walk, back home and give your marriage all the energy, gifts, poems, cards, and love that you have given to the affair. The results are remarkable. But you have to be willing to be honest with yourself, first of all. You have to admit there is a problem, and you have to be willing to fix it, with your spouse, a counselor, whatever or whoever it takes to fix it. You have to be willing to want to be there in mind, body, and spirit. You will find a love more wonderful than anything you knew before.
I hope this helps, in some way, to show you what life can be after an affair. I know that I am blessed with the most wonderful person. I was given the opportunity to feel what life was like without her, and it was not what I wanted. I found the answers I sought...I found them both here, and in her arms. I can only hope, that in some small way, you find the same thing, and that I helped the fog to lift. If you ever wish to talk to someone who understands what we WS go through, then feel free to write *edit* There is a path back home. You need only choose it! Keep the faith!
*Out of our greatest fears, come our bravest deeds!*
Truehear [/color]
Misapplication of plan A - 03/06/07 02:35 AM
[color:"red"] Misapplication of Plan A ... by Distressed [/color]
[color:"blue"] I may be opening up a can of worms, but I read so many posts from people struggling with the implementation of Plan A that I thought I'd open up a philosophical discussion. Before expressing my opinions, I need to be clear that I myself did do Plan A for about 18 months in total. So when I'm critical, accept that I'm criticizing my own behavior in the hopes that others can learn. Here goes.
I am a great believer in the Harley methodology and it helped me work through a horrible situation. However, I am convinced that there is no greater misunderstanding and misapplication of techniques than in the betrayed's use of Plan A. FAR, FAR too many betrayed's seem to believe that if they stop love busting, go to great efforts to meet the wayward's needs (while the affair continues), and don't bring up OR talks or any issues, their spouses will eventually come back. While the spouses sometimes do come back during Plan A, it is my strong belief that their coming back is much more related to the natural death of their affairs than any action the betrayed is taking.
Plan A serves one narrowly defined purpose only. Its purpose is for the betrayed spouse to demonstrate for the wayward spouse the behavior he/she is capable of should the wayward ever decide to return to the marriage. That's it. It does not and cannot be used to: 1) win the spouse back from the OP, 2) recreate love from the wayward while the affair continues by meeting emotional needs, 3) unconditionally demonstrate love and self-sacrifice from the betrayed, or 4) create guilt within the wayward.
While the positive aspects of Plan A are useful, they come with a very high negative cost if it goes on too long. The backlash to the betrayed's self-esteem grows over time as disrespectful behavior from the wayward is not only tolerated, but often rewarded. The betrayed forgets what it's like to respect him/herself, and just accepts whatever crumbs the wayward offers. Worse still, the betrayed remains so engrossed in the effort to meet the emotional needs of the wayward, that they're not focusing on developing a separate life. This doesn't always happen, but it happens far more often than it should.
I believe the Harley's are frequently misunderstood about Plan A. Their intent is for a SHORT Plan A, just to demonstrate the changes. Normally, they recommend going to Plan B at separation or after just a few months of Plan A. Plan B is almost always necessary according to the Harley's. Their advice is clear, but many people do not apply it as advised. Plan A goes way too far.
Unfortunately, it's best to accept that once someone decides to leave, whether they choose to come back is completely out of the control of the betrayed. The primary influences on the wayward's behavior are some combination of the state of the affair and the character of the wayward, not the actions of the betrayed. That's why Harley says go to Plan B and stay there. It's basically designed to allow a maximum waiting period for the affair to end. [/color]
[color:"blue"] I may be opening up a can of worms, but I read so many posts from people struggling with the implementation of Plan A that I thought I'd open up a philosophical discussion. Before expressing my opinions, I need to be clear that I myself did do Plan A for about 18 months in total. So when I'm critical, accept that I'm criticizing my own behavior in the hopes that others can learn. Here goes.
I am a great believer in the Harley methodology and it helped me work through a horrible situation. However, I am convinced that there is no greater misunderstanding and misapplication of techniques than in the betrayed's use of Plan A. FAR, FAR too many betrayed's seem to believe that if they stop love busting, go to great efforts to meet the wayward's needs (while the affair continues), and don't bring up OR talks or any issues, their spouses will eventually come back. While the spouses sometimes do come back during Plan A, it is my strong belief that their coming back is much more related to the natural death of their affairs than any action the betrayed is taking.
Plan A serves one narrowly defined purpose only. Its purpose is for the betrayed spouse to demonstrate for the wayward spouse the behavior he/she is capable of should the wayward ever decide to return to the marriage. That's it. It does not and cannot be used to: 1) win the spouse back from the OP, 2) recreate love from the wayward while the affair continues by meeting emotional needs, 3) unconditionally demonstrate love and self-sacrifice from the betrayed, or 4) create guilt within the wayward.
While the positive aspects of Plan A are useful, they come with a very high negative cost if it goes on too long. The backlash to the betrayed's self-esteem grows over time as disrespectful behavior from the wayward is not only tolerated, but often rewarded. The betrayed forgets what it's like to respect him/herself, and just accepts whatever crumbs the wayward offers. Worse still, the betrayed remains so engrossed in the effort to meet the emotional needs of the wayward, that they're not focusing on developing a separate life. This doesn't always happen, but it happens far more often than it should.
I believe the Harley's are frequently misunderstood about Plan A. Their intent is for a SHORT Plan A, just to demonstrate the changes. Normally, they recommend going to Plan B at separation or after just a few months of Plan A. Plan B is almost always necessary according to the Harley's. Their advice is clear, but many people do not apply it as advised. Plan A goes way too far.
Unfortunately, it's best to accept that once someone decides to leave, whether they choose to come back is completely out of the control of the betrayed. The primary influences on the wayward's behavior are some combination of the state of the affair and the character of the wayward, not the actions of the betrayed. That's why Harley says go to Plan B and stay there. It's basically designed to allow a maximum waiting period for the affair to end. [/color]
I need to find myself - 03/06/07 03:29 PM
Quote
Here's one of my old favorites:
2ofakind's:WS who needs to find themselves
2ofakind's:WS who needs to find themselves
[color:"blue"]"We need to be apart so I can find myself" What a cute little euphamism that is, finding yourself or finding out who you are.
Many of my dear friends here no that I am a big believer in using a gentle touch on those unfortunate souls who either "Need to find themselves" or "Need to find out who they are" before they can come home to their families.
So, as a public service to these unfortunate souls I have composed "Finding yourself for Dummies"
First, finding yourself...
1. If you can't find yourself, try looking in your shoes. More than likely you will be there.
2. Do not bother looking where your children or responsibilities are, though that would be a reasonable place to look we know you are not there.
3. If need be, go to the police station and give the desk sargeant an 8x10 or you and ask to have an APB put out since you can't find yourself.
4. Ask your child to point to their mom/dad, if you are not sure which one you are reach into your pants and feel around, if there is a penis there, you are dad, if not, you're probably mom.
Now one of these tried and true methods ought to help you find yourself, but it probable dark so let's help you see better. Reach behind you, palms facing you, arms hanging down and grab. That's your butt. Now reach in that and look for a large round object, that is your head. Now, with both hands pull as hard as you can. You are now performing recto-cranial extraction.
Ok, now you have found yourself. We are making progress here! Now we need to find out "who you are". This is not so hard. Look around the house - if there are one or more particularly short little people ask one of them, they are called children, they probably know the answer as it was one of their first two or 3 words. Not able to talk yet? No sweat.
Look for the full grown person with the red eyes who looks like they haven't slept in a while - they probably know. They aren't home??? let's keep looking.
Try looking in a desk or filing cabinet. Look for folders named "mortgage", "Utilities", Or "Marriage license". There will probably be two names here - you are one of those. So we have found you and narrowed it down to two people.
Now look and see if there is a wallet around. Remember that? Little pocket sized leather folding thingy. Look for something that says drivers license. There should be a name. Now find a mirror (Glass thingy in the bathroom), look at the picture on the driver's license and the face in the mirror, if they match, the name on the license is WHO YOU ARE. If they don't, check those papers you found - you are the other name.
Now that you have found yourself and know who you are go find the other full grown person in the house and introduce yourself. Start out with "I'm sorry I could not find myself or figure out who I was, I know now"
Next, knock off the drama, quit being melodramatic and start being mom/dad, husband/wife like you are supposed to and quit with the childish theatrics because the final piece is WHERE YOU ARE. This is called the real world where people depend on you to act like a grownup and keep track of details like who and where you are. The little people in the house are kinda sorta counting on you too.
If this doesn't work and you have to take a journey to answer these questions there is a chance that when you find yourself you will be alone, without a house, without a spouse, without children who love you and without a penny. That is how my XW found herself a year later. Trust me, my plan outlined earlier is better.
Ahhhhhhhhh.... okay, I needed to get that out since the day my XW took off into the sunset and another post yanked that rant out of me. If your WS tells you that they need time away to find themselves and discover who they are print it out for them. If they can't follow the directions make sure the door doesn't hit them in the rear and injure their head. There is a reason I harp on not putting up with crap from WS's who like to play little selfish games - if you indulge them they keep playing them.
I'm better now. Thanks for letting me take a good long vent... maybe I am finally getting my old, dead, buried, BS issues from the days before I met J out of my system.
[/color]
JustLearning gem - 03/19/07 06:37 PM
Had to save this one by JustLearning:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MoM,
Been reading along and nodding as you get great advice from Pep and others. I now know why Pep started her other threading asking men about how they handle things.
You said something a few pages back that stuck with me and I wanted to address with you.
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
me thinking again...but...there's not really any "time" that's sufficient for having an affair, no sufficient restitution is there? but I understand you're referring to the recovery work...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No sufficient restitution???? Oh! yes there is and that is where everyone is getting on you. Perhaps a more direct approach is required. In the recent posts to this thread you have become aware that your H still has issues with your A. Actually, what he has is issues with himself and how he sees himself, very normal really.
You remaining in the guilt phase and not recovering is a very selfish act really. Hate to be blunt, but you are focused on yourself more than on your H or family. How do you change the focus? You get a plan. You forgive yourself, and you start to really focus on your H and family. Your JOB is to get this marriage and this family back on track, and rebuild this marriage into something better than it was. You cannot do that contemplating your navel and emotionally beating yourself up.
Restitution comes from remorse not guilt. Restitution requires action and that means you have to become happier with yourself. Your H already told you he does not need any more "I'm sorries". He needs a happy W. He needs his best friend. He needs something he has never had, but needs now. (and that is to open up and tell you his feelings, very very hard to do, even with someone you trust).
If the truth be known, what is really bothering him now has more to do with how he sees himself, than how he sees you. But, as Pep pointed out who can he turn to. If you are still hurting, beating yourself up, he KNOWS he cannot turn to you, and frankly he has told you that in many ways. He knows he cannot lean on someone who is hurting themselves, especially if he loves them, as he does you.
If you want to make restitution, forgive yourself, and become someone you H could lean on, trust, speak with, and know that they are strong enough to handle some of his pain.
I don't even know if this book is still in print. I ran across it on a trip years ago. The title struck me as I am a male. It was entitled "Men made easy" by an author of the last name of "Oh". If memory serves me correctly. It is sort of a 12 step approach to dealing with men. Sort of simplified, but actually more accurate than I care to admit.
Find it if you can. It addresses communications, and how to get your H how to begin to discuss his feelings, etc. It is short and simple, I think I read it in an hour.
Mom, you need to understand, part of healing this marriage is forgiving yourself. Then you can help your H heal. He has forgiven you, he has remained with you. He loves you. Isn't it time to trust your H and realize his forgiveness of you was NOT a mistake. He knew what he was doing, what was in his heart and YOURS.
You see in my mind your failure to forgive yourself, is really a DJ of your H and yes of your spiritual teaching as well. Your H knows he wants you in his life. His real problem right now is whether he is good enough for you. He has doubts and your lack of forgiveness of yourself, feeds those doubts.
Please think about this.
God Bless,
JL
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MoM,
Been reading along and nodding as you get great advice from Pep and others. I now know why Pep started her other threading asking men about how they handle things.
You said something a few pages back that stuck with me and I wanted to address with you.
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
me thinking again...but...there's not really any "time" that's sufficient for having an affair, no sufficient restitution is there? but I understand you're referring to the recovery work...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No sufficient restitution???? Oh! yes there is and that is where everyone is getting on you. Perhaps a more direct approach is required. In the recent posts to this thread you have become aware that your H still has issues with your A. Actually, what he has is issues with himself and how he sees himself, very normal really.
You remaining in the guilt phase and not recovering is a very selfish act really. Hate to be blunt, but you are focused on yourself more than on your H or family. How do you change the focus? You get a plan. You forgive yourself, and you start to really focus on your H and family. Your JOB is to get this marriage and this family back on track, and rebuild this marriage into something better than it was. You cannot do that contemplating your navel and emotionally beating yourself up.
Restitution comes from remorse not guilt. Restitution requires action and that means you have to become happier with yourself. Your H already told you he does not need any more "I'm sorries". He needs a happy W. He needs his best friend. He needs something he has never had, but needs now. (and that is to open up and tell you his feelings, very very hard to do, even with someone you trust).
If the truth be known, what is really bothering him now has more to do with how he sees himself, than how he sees you. But, as Pep pointed out who can he turn to. If you are still hurting, beating yourself up, he KNOWS he cannot turn to you, and frankly he has told you that in many ways. He knows he cannot lean on someone who is hurting themselves, especially if he loves them, as he does you.
If you want to make restitution, forgive yourself, and become someone you H could lean on, trust, speak with, and know that they are strong enough to handle some of his pain.
I don't even know if this book is still in print. I ran across it on a trip years ago. The title struck me as I am a male. It was entitled "Men made easy" by an author of the last name of "Oh". If memory serves me correctly. It is sort of a 12 step approach to dealing with men. Sort of simplified, but actually more accurate than I care to admit.
Find it if you can. It addresses communications, and how to get your H how to begin to discuss his feelings, etc. It is short and simple, I think I read it in an hour.
Mom, you need to understand, part of healing this marriage is forgiving yourself. Then you can help your H heal. He has forgiven you, he has remained with you. He loves you. Isn't it time to trust your H and realize his forgiveness of you was NOT a mistake. He knew what he was doing, what was in his heart and YOURS.
You see in my mind your failure to forgive yourself, is really a DJ of your H and yes of your spiritual teaching as well. Your H knows he wants you in his life. His real problem right now is whether he is good enough for you. He has doubts and your lack of forgiveness of yourself, feeds those doubts.
Please think about this.
God Bless,
JL
School Bus "the list" - 03/30/07 03:32 PM
[color:"red"] another homerun [/color]
[color:"blue"] Dear Time,
I'm a BW.
I wanted to weigh in here on the letter idea.
About two or three months ago, I was feeling very low. It was about the one year anniversary of d-day, combined with the holidays, and his cancer surgery anniversary as well. I was about as low as low can go.
I was thinking of walking away from the whole mess.
I BEGGED FWH to just tell me 3 things he liked about me. Just list 3 things on a sticky note, 3 things that were "okay" about me, that he didn't find "repulsive" or "disgusting" about me (see what I mean about feeling low about myself????).
He was in shock!
I thought it was because I asked him to write it down. So I said, "Could you at least, right now, just NAME ONE THING, so I can hang onto that?"
He wouldn't name one thing. Just shook his head, and remained quiet, with his eyes looking at the floor.
I was devastated.
He left the room, and I cried. He couldn't get past the fact that I thought he didn't love me, didn't think he could find even one thing likeable about me, and that I had disregarded his whole year of efforts to show me his remorse over the affair. That I had ignored his efforts, had not seen his changes, and that he had NO chance to fix things.
I was devastated because I was just so depressed that I was feeling worthless and could not see his side at all.
I thought we were NOT communicating.
But he did hear what I said. I was sitting there focused so much on myself, my pain, my devastation, and FWH was listening - and I thank God for that. I thank my FWH for his ability to see my pain and do what he did.
He went to his computer and started on a list.
He came back about 15 minutes later, and told me that he couldn't write it fast enough to make it "okay" tonight. That he would just have to hold me for now, and dry my tears, but he needed time to think about the list. But that he WOULD write my list. I focused only on the fact that he had to THINK to come up with something he liked about me (you see, I was in so much pain, I still thought he just didn't even like me). I was wrong.
Turns out, the list was not a list at all. It was a love letter with three things he loved about me. Each paragraph started with "I love you because..." and he finished each paragraph with so much more than just a list.
The last sentence said that he had trouble keeping the list to just three items. That he had trouble listing the "top three", because there were so many that could have been the top three. And that anytime I wanted, he would add to the list.
I have not needed him to add to the list.
Because he has been there for me, and has done everything I have needed him to do to help me through this mess.
So yes, write the letter.
And tell him why you love him. Tell him the best things about him - about who he is INSIDE, what he DOES that makes you love him.
Because he needs to know that you see it.
And, because he needs to know that you REMEMBER it.
And because he needs to remember it himself.
And because YOU need to remember it, too.
SB
[/color]
[color:"blue"] Dear Time,
I'm a BW.
I wanted to weigh in here on the letter idea.
About two or three months ago, I was feeling very low. It was about the one year anniversary of d-day, combined with the holidays, and his cancer surgery anniversary as well. I was about as low as low can go.
I was thinking of walking away from the whole mess.
I BEGGED FWH to just tell me 3 things he liked about me. Just list 3 things on a sticky note, 3 things that were "okay" about me, that he didn't find "repulsive" or "disgusting" about me (see what I mean about feeling low about myself????).
He was in shock!
I thought it was because I asked him to write it down. So I said, "Could you at least, right now, just NAME ONE THING, so I can hang onto that?"
He wouldn't name one thing. Just shook his head, and remained quiet, with his eyes looking at the floor.
I was devastated.
He left the room, and I cried. He couldn't get past the fact that I thought he didn't love me, didn't think he could find even one thing likeable about me, and that I had disregarded his whole year of efforts to show me his remorse over the affair. That I had ignored his efforts, had not seen his changes, and that he had NO chance to fix things.
I was devastated because I was just so depressed that I was feeling worthless and could not see his side at all.
I thought we were NOT communicating.
But he did hear what I said. I was sitting there focused so much on myself, my pain, my devastation, and FWH was listening - and I thank God for that. I thank my FWH for his ability to see my pain and do what he did.
He went to his computer and started on a list.
He came back about 15 minutes later, and told me that he couldn't write it fast enough to make it "okay" tonight. That he would just have to hold me for now, and dry my tears, but he needed time to think about the list. But that he WOULD write my list. I focused only on the fact that he had to THINK to come up with something he liked about me (you see, I was in so much pain, I still thought he just didn't even like me). I was wrong.
Turns out, the list was not a list at all. It was a love letter with three things he loved about me. Each paragraph started with "I love you because..." and he finished each paragraph with so much more than just a list.
The last sentence said that he had trouble keeping the list to just three items. That he had trouble listing the "top three", because there were so many that could have been the top three. And that anytime I wanted, he would add to the list.
I have not needed him to add to the list.
Because he has been there for me, and has done everything I have needed him to do to help me through this mess.
So yes, write the letter.
And tell him why you love him. Tell him the best things about him - about who he is INSIDE, what he DOES that makes you love him.
Because he needs to know that you see it.
And, because he needs to know that you REMEMBER it.
And because he needs to remember it himself.
And because YOU need to remember it, too.
SB
[/color]
Kiwi ... getting the whole story out of the WS - 04/16/07 03:52 PM
I read this on another site and I've been given permission to use it here. It is how a BS got the truth from her WH.
She (and he) wanted to recover but she felt she wasn't getting the "whole" story. He didn't understand WHY she needed it so bady. So she did this.
"I tell him this:
"Imagine a police officer holding a briefcase rings your doorbell and tells you "BS" is dead.
You ask: "What? How?"
The police officer says: "It doesn't matter. All you need to know is she is dead".
You say: "But when? Where? Who caused it? Did she suffer?"
The police officer says: "Sir, I have all that information right here in my briefcase. But you don't need to know any of it. It may hurt you. You may cry. It will be painful. You will get angry. All you need to know is BS is gone."
Her WH told her all the remaining information.
She (and he) wanted to recover but she felt she wasn't getting the "whole" story. He didn't understand WHY she needed it so bady. So she did this.
"I tell him this:
"Imagine a police officer holding a briefcase rings your doorbell and tells you "BS" is dead.
You ask: "What? How?"
The police officer says: "It doesn't matter. All you need to know is she is dead".
You say: "But when? Where? Who caused it? Did she suffer?"
The police officer says: "Sir, I have all that information right here in my briefcase. But you don't need to know any of it. It may hurt you. You may cry. It will be painful. You will get angry. All you need to know is BS is gone."
Her WH told her all the remaining information.
loco wisdom per Mr Pep - 04/16/07 04:36 PM
Loco Wisdom
> 1. Do not walk behind me, for I may not lead. Do not walk ahead of me,
> for I may not follow. Do not walk beside me either. Just
> pretty much
> leave me the ****** alone.
>
> 2. It's always darkest before dawn. So if you're going to steal your
> neighbor's newspaper, that's the time to do it.
>
> 3. Sex is like air-it's not important unless you aren't getting any.
>
> 4. If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of
> car payments.
>
> 5. Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.
> That way, when you criticize them, you're at least mile away,
> and you have their shoes.
>
> 6. If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
>
> 7. Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish,
> and he will sit in your boat and drink your beer all day.
>
> 8. If you lend someone $20 and never see that person again, it was
> worth it.
>
> 9. Don't worry-It only seems kinky the first time.
>
> 10. There are two theories about arguing with women/men. Neither one
> works.
>
> 11. Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
>
> 1. Do not walk behind me, for I may not lead. Do not walk ahead of me,
> for I may not follow. Do not walk beside me either. Just
> pretty much
> leave me the ****** alone.
>
> 2. It's always darkest before dawn. So if you're going to steal your
> neighbor's newspaper, that's the time to do it.
>
> 3. Sex is like air-it's not important unless you aren't getting any.
>
> 4. If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of
> car payments.
>
> 5. Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.
> That way, when you criticize them, you're at least mile away,
> and you have their shoes.
>
> 6. If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
>
> 7. Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish,
> and he will sit in your boat and drink your beer all day.
>
> 8. If you lend someone $20 and never see that person again, it was
> worth it.
>
> 9. Don't worry-It only seems kinky the first time.
>
> 10. There are two theories about arguing with women/men. Neither one
> works.
>
> 11. Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
>
MB wisdom per Mimi - 05/01/07 03:09 PM
PERSONAL POWER
As I look back over my time here, I consider this one of the GREATEST GIFTS that I received from this forum.
I remain here for that sustenance.
The POWER helps me in my MARRIAGE to this day.
It weathers me through CONFLICTS with my H..yes CONFLICTS from which I used to FLEE..I walk head on into them and SPEAK MY TRUTH...and I see my H valuing ME and RESPECTING ME...AHHHH...PERSONAL POWER....I LOVE IT!!!
Becoming convicted to WORK YOUR PLAN will lead you HERE to where I am...
It has to be YOUR PLAN..not about HIM...
It has to be how YOU WANT TO CHANGE TO MAKE YOURSELF INTO A BETTER PERSON...
Then THE PLAN is REAL, SINCERE AND MEANINGFUL to YOU and that will be communicated to your WS and others....
Starting with the FOCUS ON YOURSELF prepares you for PLAN B which takes all the PERSONAL STRENGTH and CONVICTION a PERSON CAN BEAR...
It is hard to PERSEVERE AND ENDURE during PLAN B..it involves WITHDRAWAL from your WS and RECREATING YOUR LIFE...it did for me...
Yes, Plan B for me was ONLY 3 MONTH or so...but THE MENTAL PREPARATION, SOUL SEARCHING and LIFE CHANGES STARTED WAY BEFORE THEN on D-DAY...
I decided to CHANGE INTO THE NEW ME that I am today and have not turned back...and will not turn back...I WILL NOT BE THAT PERSON EVER EVER AGAIN...
I have a sense of PERSONAL POWER and PURPOSE..my H knows for sure that I WILL AND CAN SURVIVE WITHOUT HIM..I am certainly ENHANCED BY HIS PRESENCE IN MY LIFE..but also HIS LIFE IS ENHANCED BY ME....
I felt compelled to say this this morning...
I am so thankful for getting to this place...
It is VITAL FOR YOU GUYS..especially MY GIRLS..to get HERE, TOO...
As I look back over my time here, I consider this one of the GREATEST GIFTS that I received from this forum.
I remain here for that sustenance.
The POWER helps me in my MARRIAGE to this day.
It weathers me through CONFLICTS with my H..yes CONFLICTS from which I used to FLEE..I walk head on into them and SPEAK MY TRUTH...and I see my H valuing ME and RESPECTING ME...AHHHH...PERSONAL POWER....I LOVE IT!!!
Becoming convicted to WORK YOUR PLAN will lead you HERE to where I am...
It has to be YOUR PLAN..not about HIM...
It has to be how YOU WANT TO CHANGE TO MAKE YOURSELF INTO A BETTER PERSON...
Then THE PLAN is REAL, SINCERE AND MEANINGFUL to YOU and that will be communicated to your WS and others....
Starting with the FOCUS ON YOURSELF prepares you for PLAN B which takes all the PERSONAL STRENGTH and CONVICTION a PERSON CAN BEAR...
It is hard to PERSEVERE AND ENDURE during PLAN B..it involves WITHDRAWAL from your WS and RECREATING YOUR LIFE...it did for me...
Yes, Plan B for me was ONLY 3 MONTH or so...but THE MENTAL PREPARATION, SOUL SEARCHING and LIFE CHANGES STARTED WAY BEFORE THEN on D-DAY...
I decided to CHANGE INTO THE NEW ME that I am today and have not turned back...and will not turn back...I WILL NOT BE THAT PERSON EVER EVER AGAIN...
I have a sense of PERSONAL POWER and PURPOSE..my H knows for sure that I WILL AND CAN SURVIVE WITHOUT HIM..I am certainly ENHANCED BY HIS PRESENCE IN MY LIFE..but also HIS LIFE IS ENHANCED BY ME....
I felt compelled to say this this morning...
I am so thankful for getting to this place...
It is VITAL FOR YOU GUYS..especially MY GIRLS..to get HERE, TOO...
Mr Wondering's wonderous words - 05/01/07 03:12 PM
Just mentioning that alliteration in the wrong hands can be a dangerous thing!
anywho ... the following is written by Mr Wondering .... and I liked it too much to have it buried on another thread
here 'tis:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To the Foggy;
Foggy is not a bad word. It's merely an assesment by those that have come before you of your current position. I've been foggy, Mrs. Wonderings has been foggy...almost everyone here has been foggy at one point or another dealing with this mess. The term is thrown around here quite often as a way to say "come on, think about what you are saying/arguing...you are so close to processing this and you just refuse". We also want to make clear to newbies that your advice, statements, arguments, questions should be, in our opinions "caveated" (if thats a word) and/or disregarded as your perspective is not YET in alignment with the principles here on MB.
We are not condemning you to a lifetime of fogginess (though I am certain some remain there). We are hopeful that your perspective will change and become more healthy. By sticking around and continuing with these debates seeds of clarity ARE certainly being planted. So keep going but try not to take offense to us so easily for one day you will be us, no kidding. We are thankful MB has provided the forum for your (and our) development as we ALL put our minds around this momentus event that occured in all our lives. MB, really is the best infidelity recovery program known today. I don't think I could improve it and I really don't see how one fresh out of an affair could even conceive of improving it, but I understand how the fogginess makes one try.
When Mrs. Wondering and I first arrived (I read first but she initiated us posting), she and I both poked fun at the cult like attitudes that were being presented to us. We too thought some of the methods were being portrayed to rigidly and were QUESTIONABLE, to say the least. We thought we could swath our own path. We WERE foggy then so we completely understand and SEE where you all are coming from now. No worries, we love ya anyway.
On the other hand, I have a sneeking suspicion that 1 or more of you may be other than you say you are. Celt, in particular, strikes me as potentially a full blown WS, a WS that is now divorced or an OP. Come on, a year recovered BS that thinks exposure is a bad thing, continual posts on every exposure thread here debating intricacies which are quite clear and is proud of the fact he "saved" his wife's reputation by not exposing her affair. I'm a BS that didn't expose and "saved" my wifes reputation but WE (the Mrs. and I) see absolutely clearly I should have exposed at least to her parents and the single OM's family. It would likely have cut weeks off her 3 month affair. Accordingly, we now consistently encourage others to do FULL exposure in accordance with MB principles. In my opinion, Celt's posts appear specifically designed to stir the pot, distract us from our intended purpose (of helping real couples afflicted by infidelty), play on newbie BS fears, and pointedly attack Melody Lane as she IS one of the many but perhaps the most outspoken "affair buster" superhero. I don't know if this is a concerted organized attack on MB or a personal vendetta against Melody Lane and/or MB...but I suspect it, nonetheless. Sfjaj, a few others and even you Cookie I suspect. Not an accusation, just a suspicion. But then again, I am a conspiracist. I'd investigate myself if I thought I'd find anything.
On the other hand, we have recently had a handful of WW's show up. Last June when I arrived I only saw a few WW's regularly posting and when a new WW arrived they were usually an island of dissent/fogginess and rarely got support and thus rarely swam against the stream for long on the board. However, with so many arriving at nearly the same time the foggy have been recently embolden to post their opinions and advice regardless of the fact they are mistaken and contrary to solid MB principles. Notice I am not saying they are wrong, IMO they are just not of the proper perspective YET to internalize the brillance of the MB program and ALL its components so they question the PROFESSIONALLY designed, TRIED and TESTED narrow MB path. It doesn't help that they have since been told that their "opinions" no matter how fogged out are somehow valuable and should be respected. I guess we all do really in essence respect the opinion; but, recognize and point it out for what it is, foggy, so that newbies are hopefully not distracted. We respect the foggy individuals as what they are and as they post here PROCESSING what they need to process to become healthy again, whether individually, as a marital partner or as a divorcee. We all are here rooting for you all to fully get it.
BTW, we are still foggy ouyselves on some issues including in particular conflict avoidance. We are trying to learn and get better but its tough to break old engrained habits. The difference is, I would not begin to tell, question or advise people, how to address their conflict avoidance issues, let alone in opposition to the stated professional principles, until I had at least got a handle on my own.
Foggy is NOT a put down, it's who you are and who I am. I believe us to be at differing levels of fogginess, but, I guess, thats just my opinion. I wish you all a succesful journey...we really do want to see you on the other side of these arguments and healthy/healthier one day.
Mr. Wondering
anywho ... the following is written by Mr Wondering .... and I liked it too much to have it buried on another thread
here 'tis:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To the Foggy;
Foggy is not a bad word. It's merely an assesment by those that have come before you of your current position. I've been foggy, Mrs. Wonderings has been foggy...almost everyone here has been foggy at one point or another dealing with this mess. The term is thrown around here quite often as a way to say "come on, think about what you are saying/arguing...you are so close to processing this and you just refuse". We also want to make clear to newbies that your advice, statements, arguments, questions should be, in our opinions "caveated" (if thats a word) and/or disregarded as your perspective is not YET in alignment with the principles here on MB.
We are not condemning you to a lifetime of fogginess (though I am certain some remain there). We are hopeful that your perspective will change and become more healthy. By sticking around and continuing with these debates seeds of clarity ARE certainly being planted. So keep going but try not to take offense to us so easily for one day you will be us, no kidding. We are thankful MB has provided the forum for your (and our) development as we ALL put our minds around this momentus event that occured in all our lives. MB, really is the best infidelity recovery program known today. I don't think I could improve it and I really don't see how one fresh out of an affair could even conceive of improving it, but I understand how the fogginess makes one try.
When Mrs. Wondering and I first arrived (I read first but she initiated us posting), she and I both poked fun at the cult like attitudes that were being presented to us. We too thought some of the methods were being portrayed to rigidly and were QUESTIONABLE, to say the least. We thought we could swath our own path. We WERE foggy then so we completely understand and SEE where you all are coming from now. No worries, we love ya anyway.
On the other hand, I have a sneeking suspicion that 1 or more of you may be other than you say you are. Celt, in particular, strikes me as potentially a full blown WS, a WS that is now divorced or an OP. Come on, a year recovered BS that thinks exposure is a bad thing, continual posts on every exposure thread here debating intricacies which are quite clear and is proud of the fact he "saved" his wife's reputation by not exposing her affair. I'm a BS that didn't expose and "saved" my wifes reputation but WE (the Mrs. and I) see absolutely clearly I should have exposed at least to her parents and the single OM's family. It would likely have cut weeks off her 3 month affair. Accordingly, we now consistently encourage others to do FULL exposure in accordance with MB principles. In my opinion, Celt's posts appear specifically designed to stir the pot, distract us from our intended purpose (of helping real couples afflicted by infidelty), play on newbie BS fears, and pointedly attack Melody Lane as she IS one of the many but perhaps the most outspoken "affair buster" superhero. I don't know if this is a concerted organized attack on MB or a personal vendetta against Melody Lane and/or MB...but I suspect it, nonetheless. Sfjaj, a few others and even you Cookie I suspect. Not an accusation, just a suspicion. But then again, I am a conspiracist. I'd investigate myself if I thought I'd find anything.
On the other hand, we have recently had a handful of WW's show up. Last June when I arrived I only saw a few WW's regularly posting and when a new WW arrived they were usually an island of dissent/fogginess and rarely got support and thus rarely swam against the stream for long on the board. However, with so many arriving at nearly the same time the foggy have been recently embolden to post their opinions and advice regardless of the fact they are mistaken and contrary to solid MB principles. Notice I am not saying they are wrong, IMO they are just not of the proper perspective YET to internalize the brillance of the MB program and ALL its components so they question the PROFESSIONALLY designed, TRIED and TESTED narrow MB path. It doesn't help that they have since been told that their "opinions" no matter how fogged out are somehow valuable and should be respected. I guess we all do really in essence respect the opinion; but, recognize and point it out for what it is, foggy, so that newbies are hopefully not distracted. We respect the foggy individuals as what they are and as they post here PROCESSING what they need to process to become healthy again, whether individually, as a marital partner or as a divorcee. We all are here rooting for you all to fully get it.
BTW, we are still foggy ouyselves on some issues including in particular conflict avoidance. We are trying to learn and get better but its tough to break old engrained habits. The difference is, I would not begin to tell, question or advise people, how to address their conflict avoidance issues, let alone in opposition to the stated professional principles, until I had at least got a handle on my own.
Foggy is NOT a put down, it's who you are and who I am. I believe us to be at differing levels of fogginess, but, I guess, thats just my opinion. I wish you all a succesful journey...we really do want to see you on the other side of these arguments and healthy/healthier one day.
Mr. Wondering
a passage from book: Emotional Blackmail - 05/01/07 03:15 PM
The Six Deadly Symptoms
A young couple I know, Jim and Helen, have been together for just over a year. Helen, a professor of literature at a community college, has huge brown eyes and a broad, perfect smile. She was introduced to Jim at a party, and Jim seemed delightful. Tall and soft-spoken, he's a successful songwriter. The couple share a great affection for each other. However, for Helen the ease of being with Jim has been draining away. In fact, their relationship has progressed through the six stages of emotional blackmail.
To give you a clear idea of what the six emotional blackmail symptoms look and feel like, let's walk through a simplified version of a conflict that came up between Jim and Helen. You'll notice that some of the symptoms describe Jim's behavior, and some focus on Helen's.
1: A demand. Jim wants something from Helen. He suggests to her that they've been spending so much time with each other, they might as well move in together. "I practically live here already," he tells her. "Let's just make it official." Her apartment is huge, and half his things are there, he adds, so it'll be a simple transition.
Sometimes blackmailers don't verbalize what they want as clearly as Jim did, but instead make us figure it out. Jim might make his point indirectly, perhaps sulking after a friend's wedding, then letting Helen extract from him, "I wish we could be closer; I get so lonely sometimes," and eventually saying that he'd like to move in.
At first blush, Jim's suggestion sounds loving, and not like a demand at all, but it soon becomes clear that he is set in his course of action and is not willing to discuss or change it.
2: Resistance. Helen feels uncomfortable about Jim's moving in and expresses her unwillingness by telling him that she's not ready for that kind of change in the relationship. She cares deeply for him, but she wants him to have his own place.
If she were a less direct person, Helen might resist in other ways. She could withdraw and become less affectionate, or tell him that she's decided to repaint and he'll have to take his things home until the job is done. However she expresses her resistance, the message is clear. The answer is no.
3: Pressure. When he sees that Helen isn't giving him the response he wants, Jim does not try to understand her feelings. Rather, he pushes her to change her mind. At first he acts as if he's willing to talk over the issue with her, but the discussion becomes one-sided and turns into a lecture. He transforms Helen's statement of resistance into a statement of her deficiencies, and he casts his own desires and demands in the most positive terms: "I only want what's best for us. I only want to give to you. When two people love each other, they should want to share their lives. Why don't you want to share yourself with me? If you weren't so self-centered, you could open up your life a little."
Then he turns on the charm and asks, "Don't you love me enough to want me here all the time?" Another blackmailer might turn up the pressure by adamantly insisting that his moving in would improve the relationship and bring them closer. Whatever the style, pressure will come into play, though it may be cloaked in benevolent terms--for example, Jim's letting Helen know how much her reluctance is paining him.
4: Threats. As Jim continues to hit a wall of resistance, he lets Helen know there will be consequences if she doesn't give him what he wants. Blackmailers may threaten to cause us pain or unhappiness. They may let us know how much we're making them suffer. They may also try to tantalize us with promises of what they'll give us, or how much they'll love us, if we go along with them. Jim works on Helen with veiled threats: "If you can't make this kind of commitment to me after all we've meant to each other, maybe it's time for us to see other people." He doesn't directly threaten to end the relationship, but the implication is impossible for Helen to miss.
5: Compliance. Helen doesn't want to lose Jim, and tells herself that perhaps she's been wrong to say he can't move in, despite her continuing uneasy feelings. She and Jim only talk superficially about her concerns, and Jim makes no attempt to allay them. A couple of months later, Helen stops resisting, and Jim moves in.
6: Repetition. Jim's victory ushers in a quiescent period. Now that he's gotten his way, he removes the pressure, and the relationship appears to stabilize. Helen is still uncomfortable about how things have turned out, but she's also relieved to have the pressure off and to regain Jim's love and approval. Jim has seen that pressuring Helen and making her feel guilty is a sure way to get what he wants. And Helen has seen that the fastest way to end Jim's pressure tactics is to give in. The groundwork is laid for a pattern of demands, pressure and capitulation.
These six characteristics are at the heart of the emotional blackmail syndrome, and we will be returning to them and exploring them more deeply throughout this book.
The author is Susan Forward.... has anyone read this one?
Pep
A young couple I know, Jim and Helen, have been together for just over a year. Helen, a professor of literature at a community college, has huge brown eyes and a broad, perfect smile. She was introduced to Jim at a party, and Jim seemed delightful. Tall and soft-spoken, he's a successful songwriter. The couple share a great affection for each other. However, for Helen the ease of being with Jim has been draining away. In fact, their relationship has progressed through the six stages of emotional blackmail.
To give you a clear idea of what the six emotional blackmail symptoms look and feel like, let's walk through a simplified version of a conflict that came up between Jim and Helen. You'll notice that some of the symptoms describe Jim's behavior, and some focus on Helen's.
1: A demand. Jim wants something from Helen. He suggests to her that they've been spending so much time with each other, they might as well move in together. "I practically live here already," he tells her. "Let's just make it official." Her apartment is huge, and half his things are there, he adds, so it'll be a simple transition.
Sometimes blackmailers don't verbalize what they want as clearly as Jim did, but instead make us figure it out. Jim might make his point indirectly, perhaps sulking after a friend's wedding, then letting Helen extract from him, "I wish we could be closer; I get so lonely sometimes," and eventually saying that he'd like to move in.
At first blush, Jim's suggestion sounds loving, and not like a demand at all, but it soon becomes clear that he is set in his course of action and is not willing to discuss or change it.
2: Resistance. Helen feels uncomfortable about Jim's moving in and expresses her unwillingness by telling him that she's not ready for that kind of change in the relationship. She cares deeply for him, but she wants him to have his own place.
If she were a less direct person, Helen might resist in other ways. She could withdraw and become less affectionate, or tell him that she's decided to repaint and he'll have to take his things home until the job is done. However she expresses her resistance, the message is clear. The answer is no.
3: Pressure. When he sees that Helen isn't giving him the response he wants, Jim does not try to understand her feelings. Rather, he pushes her to change her mind. At first he acts as if he's willing to talk over the issue with her, but the discussion becomes one-sided and turns into a lecture. He transforms Helen's statement of resistance into a statement of her deficiencies, and he casts his own desires and demands in the most positive terms: "I only want what's best for us. I only want to give to you. When two people love each other, they should want to share their lives. Why don't you want to share yourself with me? If you weren't so self-centered, you could open up your life a little."
Then he turns on the charm and asks, "Don't you love me enough to want me here all the time?" Another blackmailer might turn up the pressure by adamantly insisting that his moving in would improve the relationship and bring them closer. Whatever the style, pressure will come into play, though it may be cloaked in benevolent terms--for example, Jim's letting Helen know how much her reluctance is paining him.
4: Threats. As Jim continues to hit a wall of resistance, he lets Helen know there will be consequences if she doesn't give him what he wants. Blackmailers may threaten to cause us pain or unhappiness. They may let us know how much we're making them suffer. They may also try to tantalize us with promises of what they'll give us, or how much they'll love us, if we go along with them. Jim works on Helen with veiled threats: "If you can't make this kind of commitment to me after all we've meant to each other, maybe it's time for us to see other people." He doesn't directly threaten to end the relationship, but the implication is impossible for Helen to miss.
5: Compliance. Helen doesn't want to lose Jim, and tells herself that perhaps she's been wrong to say he can't move in, despite her continuing uneasy feelings. She and Jim only talk superficially about her concerns, and Jim makes no attempt to allay them. A couple of months later, Helen stops resisting, and Jim moves in.
6: Repetition. Jim's victory ushers in a quiescent period. Now that he's gotten his way, he removes the pressure, and the relationship appears to stabilize. Helen is still uncomfortable about how things have turned out, but she's also relieved to have the pressure off and to regain Jim's love and approval. Jim has seen that pressuring Helen and making her feel guilty is a sure way to get what he wants. And Helen has seen that the fastest way to end Jim's pressure tactics is to give in. The groundwork is laid for a pattern of demands, pressure and capitulation.
These six characteristics are at the heart of the emotional blackmail syndrome, and we will be returning to them and exploring them more deeply throughout this book.
The author is Susan Forward.... has anyone read this one?
Pep
brought to you by Kimmy: Life after infidelity - 05/01/07 03:20 PM
Long - But worth reading. Makes some very good points pointing out the DIFFERENCES between men and women and A.
Beyond Betrayal: Life After Infidelity
By: Frank Pittman
Summary: Not all affairs are alike; some are even accidental.
Hour after hour, day after day in my office I see men and women who have been screwing around. They lead secret lives, as they hide themselves from their marriages. They go through wrenching divorces, inflicting pain on their children and their children's children. Or they make desperate, tearful, sweaty efforts at holding on to the shreds of a life they've betrayed. They tell me they have gone through all of this for a quick thrill or a furtive moment of romance. Sometimes they tell me they don't remember making the decision that tore apart their life: "It just happened." Sometimes they don't even know they are being unfaithful. (I tell them: "If you don't know whether what you are doing is an infidelity or not, ask your spouse.") From the outside looking in, it is insane. How could anyone risk everything in life on the turn of a screw? Infidelity was not something people did much in my family, so I always found it strange and noteworthy when people did it in my practice. After almost 30 years of cleaning up the mess after other people's affairs, I wrote a book describing everything about infidelity I'd seen in my practice. The book was Private Lies: Infidelity and the Betrayal of Intimacy (Norton). I thought it might help. Even if the tragedy of AIDS and the humiliation of prominent politicians hadn't stopped it, surely people could not continue screwing around after reading about the absurd destructiveness of it. As you know, people have not stopped having affairs. But many of them feel the need to write or call or drop by and talk to me about it. When I wrote Private Lies, I thought I knew everything there was to know about infidelity. But I know now that there is even more.
ACCIDENTAL INFIDELITY
All affairs are not alike. The thousands of affairs I've seen seem to fall into four broad categories. Most first affairs are cases of accidental infidelity, unintended and uncharacteristic acts of carelessness that really did "just happen." Someone will get drunk, will get caught up in the moment, will just be having a bad day. It can happen to anyone, though some people are more accident prone than others, and some situations are accident zones.
Many times a young man has started his career as a philanderer quite accidentally when he is traveling out of town on a new job with a philandering boss who chooses one of a pair of women and expects the young fellow to entertain the other. The most startling dynamic behind accidental infidelity is misplaced politeness, the feeling that it would be rude to turn down a needy friend's sexual advances. In the debonair gallantry of the moment, the brazen discourtesy to the marriage partner is overlooked altogether.
Both men and women can slip up and have accidental affairs, though the most accident-prone are those who drink, those who travel, those who don't get asked much, those who don't feel very tightly married, those whose running buddies screw around, and those who are afraid to run from a challenge. Most are men.
After an accidental infidelity, there is clearly the sense that one's life and marriage have changed. The choices are:
1. To decide that infidelity was a stupid thing to do, to confess it or not to do so, but to resolve to take better precautions in the future;
2. To decide you wouldn't have done such a thing unless your husband or wife had let you down, put the blame on your mate, and go home and pick your marriage to death;
3. To notice that lightning did not strike you dead, decide this would be a safe and inexpensive hobby to take up, and do it some more;
4. To decide that you would not have done such a thing if you were married to the right person, determine that this was meant to be, and declare yourself in love with the stranger in the bed.
ROMANTIC INFIDELITY
Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continuing living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate--someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own--is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your fife, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.
Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape.
People are most likely to get into these romantic affairs at the turning points of life: when their parents die or their children grow up; when they suffer health crises or are under pressure to give up an addiction; when they achieve an unexpected level of job success or job failure; or when their first child is born--any situation in which they must face a lot of reality and grow up. The better the marriage, the saner and more sensible the spouse, the more alienated the romantic is likely to feel. Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones.
Both genders seem equally capable of falling into the temporary insanity of romantic affairs, though women are more likely to reframe anything they do as having been done for love. Women in love are far more aware of what they are doing and what the dangers might be. Men in love can be extraordinarily incautious and willing to give up everything. Men in love lose their heads--at least for a while.
MARITAL ARRANGEMENTS
All marriages are imperfect, and probably a disappointment in one way or another, which is a piece of reality, not a license to mess around with the neighbors. There are some marriages that fail to provide a modicum of warmth, sex, sanity, companionship, money. There are awful marriages people can't get all the way into and can't get all the way out of, divorces people won't call off and can't go through, marriages that won't die and won't recover. Often people in such marriages make a marital arrangement by calling in marital aides to keep them company while they avoid living their life. Such practical affairs help them keep the marriage steady but distant. They thus encapsulate the marital deficiency, so the infidel can neither establish a life without the problems nor solve them. Affairs can wreck a good marriage, but can help stabilize a bad one.
People who get into marital arrangements are not necessarily the innocent victims of defective relationships. Some set out to keep their marriages defective and distant. I have seen men who have kept the same mistress through several marriages, arranging their marriages to serve some practical purpose while keeping their romance safely encapsulated elsewhere. The men considered it a victory over marriage; the exploited wives were outraged.
I encountered one woman who had long been involved with a married man. She got tired of waiting for him to get a divorce and married someone else. She didn't tell her husband about her affair, and she didn't tell her affaire about her marriage. She somehow thought they would never find out about one another. After a few exhausting and confusing weeks, the men met and confronted her. She cheerfully told them she loved them both and the arrangement seemed the sensible way to have her cake and eat it too. She couldn't understand why both the men felt cheated and deprived by her efforts to sacrifice their lives to satisfy her skittishness about total commitment.
Some of these arrangements can get quite complicated. One woman supported her house-husband and their kids by living as the mistress of an older married man, who spent his afternoons and weekend days with her and his evenings at home with his own children and his sexually boring wife. People averse to conflict might prefer such arrangements to therapy, or any other effort to actually solve the problems of the marriage.
Unhappily married people of either gender can establish marital arrangements to help them through the night. But men are more likely to focus on the practicality of the arrangement and diminish awareness of any threat to the stability of the marriage, while women are more likely to romanticize the arrangement and convince themselves it is leading toward an eventual union with the romantic partner. Networks of couples may spend their lives halfway through someone's divorce, usually with a guilt-ridden man reluctant to completely leave a marriage he has betrayed and even deserted, and a woman, no matter how hard she protests to the contrary, eternally hopeful for a wedding in the future.
Philandering
Philandering is a predominantly male activity. Philanderers take up infidelity as a hobby. Philanderers are likely to have a rigid and concrete concept of gender; they worship masculinity, and while they may be greatly attracted to women, they are mostly interested in having the woman affirm their masculinity. They don't really like women, and they certainly don't want an equal, intimate relationship with a member of the gender they insist is inferior, but far too powerful. They see women as dangerous, since women have the ability to assess a man's worth, to measure him and find him wanting, to determine whether he is man enough.
These men may or may not like sex, but they use it compulsively to affirm their masculinity and overcome both their homophobia and their fear of women. They can be cruel, abusive, and even violent to women who try to get control of them and stop the philandering they consider crucial to their masculinity. Their life is centered around displays of masculinity, however they define it, trying to impress women with their physical strength, competitive victories, seductive skills, mastery of all situations, power, wealth, and, if necessary, violence. Some of them are quite charming and have no trouble finding women eager to be abused by them.
Gay men can philander too, and the dynamics are the same for gay philanderers as for straight ones: the obvious avoidance of female sexual control, but also preoccupation with masculinity and the use of rampant sexuality for both reassurance and the measurement of manhood. When men have paid such an enormous social and interpersonal price for their preferred sexuality, they are likely to wrap an enormous amount of their identity around their sexuality and express that sexuality extensively.
Philanderers may be the sons of philanderers, or they may have learned their ideas about marriage and gender from their ethnic group or inadvertently from their religion. Somewhere they have gotten the idea that their masculinity is their most valuable attribute and it requires them to protect themselves from coming under female control. These guys may consider themselves quite principled and honorable, and they may follow the rules to the letter in their dealings with other men. But in their world women have no rights.
To men they may seem normal, but women experience them as narcissistic or even sociopathic. They think they are normal, that they are doing what every other real man would do if he weren't such a wimp. The notions of marital fidelity, of gender equality, of honesty and intimacy between husbands and wives seem quite foreign from what they learned growing up. The gender equality of monogamy may not feel compatible to men steeped in patriarchal beliefs in men being gods and women being ribs. Monogamous sexuality is difficult for men who worship Madonnas for their sexlessness and berate Eves for their seductiveness.
Philanderers' sexuality is fueled by anger and fear, and while they may be considered "sex addicts" they are really "gender compulsives" desperately doing whatever they think will make them look and feel most masculine. They put notches on their belts in hopes it will make their penises grow bigger. If they can get a woman to die for them, like opera composer Giacomo Puccini did in real life and in most of his operas, they feel like a real man.
Female Philanderers
There are female philanderers too, and they too are usually the daughters or ex-wives of philanderers. They are angry at men, because they believe all men screw around as their father or ex-husband did. A female philanderer is not likely to stay married for very long, since that would require her to make peace with a man, and as a woman to carry more than her share of the burden of marriage. Marriage grounds people in reality rather than transporting them into fantasy, so marriage is too loving, too demanding, too realistic, and not romantic enough for them.
I hear stories of female philanderers, such as Maria Riva's description of her mother, Marlene Dietrich. They appear to have insatiable sexual appetites but, on closer examination, they don't like sex much. They do like power over men, and underneath the philandering anger, they are plaintively seeking love.
Straying wives are rarely philanderers, but single women who mess around with married men are quite likely to be. Female philanderers prefer to raid other people's marriages, breaking up relationships, doing as much damage as possible, and then dancing off reaffirmed. Like male philanderers, female philanderers put their victims through all of this just to give themselves a sense of gender power.
Spider Woman
There are women who, by nature romantics, don't quite want to escape their own life and die for love. Instead they'd rather have some guy wreck his life for them. These women have been so recently betrayed by unfaithful men that the wound is still raw and they are out for revenge. A woman who angrily pursues married men is a "spider woman"--she requires human sacrifice to restore her sense of power.
When she is sucking the blood from other people's marriages, she feels some relief from the pain of having her own marriage betrayed. She simply requires that a man love her enough to sacrifice his life for her. She may be particularly attracted to happy marriages, clearly envious of the woman whose husband is faithful and loving to her. Sometimes it isn't clear whether she wants to replace the happy wife or just make her miserable.
The women who are least squeamish and most likely to wreak havoc on other people's marriages are victims of some sort of abuse, so angry that they don't feel bound by the usual rules or obligations, so desperate that they cling to any source of security, and so miserable that they don't bother to think a bit of the end of it.
Josephine Hart's novel Damage, and the Louis Malle film version of it, describe such a woman. She seduces her fiancee's depressed father, and after the fiancee discovers the affair and kills himself, she waltzes off from the wreckage of all the lives. She explains that her father disappeared long ago, her mother had been married four or five times, and her brother committed suicide when she left his bed and began to date other boys. She describes herself as damaged, and says: "Damaged people are dangerous. They know they can survive."
Bette was a spider woman. She came to see me only once, with her married affair partner Alvin, a man I had been seeing with his wife Agnes. But I kept up with her through the many people whose lives she touched. Bette's father had run off and left her and her mother when she was just a child, and her stepfather had exposed himself to her. Most recently Bette's manic husband Burt had run off with a stripper, Claudia, and had briefly married her before he crashed and went into a psychiatric hospital.
While Burt was with Claudia, the enraged Bette promptly latched on to Alvin, a laid-back philanderer who had been married to Agnes for decades and had been screwing around casually most of that time. Bette was determined that Alvin was going to divorce Agnes and marry her, desert his children, and raise her now-fatherless kids. The normally cheerful Alvin, who had done a good job for a lifetime of pleasing every woman he met and avoiding getting trapped by any of them, couldn't seem to escape Bette, but he certainly had no desire to leave Agnes. He grew increasingly depressed and suicidal. He felt better after he told the long-suffering Agnes, but he still couldn't move in any direction. Over the next couple of years, Bette and Alvin took turns threatening suicide, while Agnes tended her garden, raised her children, ran her business, and waited for the increasingly disoriented and pathetic Alvin to come to his senses.
Agnes finally became sufficiently alarmed about her husband's deterioration that she decided the only way she could save his life was to divorce him. She did, and Alvin promptly dumped Bette. He could not forgive her for what she had made him do to dear, sweet Agnes. He lost no time in taking up with Darlene, with whom he had been flirting for some time, but who wouldn't go out with a married man. Agnes felt relief, and the comfort of a good settlement, but Bette was once again abandoned and desperate.
She called Alvin hourly, alternately threatening suicide, reciting erotic poetry, and offering to fix him dinner. She phoned bomb threats to Darlene's office. Bette called me to tell me what a sociopathic jerk Alvin was to betray her with another woman after all she had done in helping him through his divorce. She wrote sisterly notes to Agnes, offering the comfort of friendship to help one another through the awful experience of being betrayed by this terrible man. At no point did Bette consider that she had done anything wrong. She was now, as she had been all her life, a victim of men, who not only use and abuse women, but won't lay down their lives to rescue them on cue.
EMOTIONALLY RETARDED MEN IN LOVE
About the only people more dangerous than philandering men going through life with an open fly and romantic damsels going through life in perennial distress, are emotionally retarded men in love. When such men go through a difficult transition in life, they hunker down and ignore all emotions. Their brain chemistry gets depressed, but they don't know how to feel it as depression. Their loved ones try to keep from bothering them, try to keep things calm and serene and isolate them further.
An emotionally retarded man may go for a time without feeling pleasure, pain, or anything else, until a strange woman jerks him back into awareness of something intense enough for him to feel it--perhaps sexual fireworks, or the boyish heroics of rescuing her, or perhaps just fascination with her constantly changing moods and never-ending emotional crises.
With her, he can pull out of his depression briefly, but he sinks back even deeper into it when he is not with her. He is getting addicted to her, but he doesn't know that. He only feels the absence of joy and love and life with his serenely cautious wife and kids, and the awareness of life with this new woman. It doesn't work for him to leave home to be with her, as she too would grow stale and irritating if she were around full time.
What he needs is not a crazier woman to sacrifice his life for, but treatment for his depression. However, since the best home remedies for depression are sex, exercise, joy, and triumph, the dangerous damsel may be providing one or more of them in a big enough dose to make him feel a lot better. He may feel pretty good until he gets the bill, and sees how much of his life and the lives of his loved ones this treatment is costing. Marriages that start this way, stepping over the bodies of loved ones as the giddy couple walks down the aisle, are not likely to last long.
Howard had been faithful to Harriett for 16 years. He had been happy with her. She made him feel loved, which no one else had ever tried to do. Howard devoted himself to doing the right thing. He always did what he was supposed to do and he never complained. In fact he said very little at all.
Howard worked at Harriett's father's store, a stylish and expensive mews clothiers. He had worked there in high school and returned after college. He'd never had another job. He had felt like a son to his father-in-law. But when the old man retired, he bypassed the stalwart, loyal Howard and made his own wastrel son manager.
Howard also took care of his own elderly parents who lived next door. His father died, and left a nice little estate to his mother, who then gave much of it to his younger brother, who had gotten into trouble with gambling and extravagance.
Howard felt betrayed, and sank into a depression. He talked of quitting his job and moving away. Harriett pointed out the impracticality of that for the kids. She reminded him of all the good qualities of his mother and her father.
Howard didn't bring it up again. Instead, he began to talk to Maxine, one of the tailors at the store, a tired middle-aged woman who shared Howard's disillusionment with the world. One day, Maxine called frightened because she smelled gas in her trailer and her third ex-husband had threatened to hurt her. She needed for Howard to come out and see if he could smell anything dangerous. He did, and somehow ended up in bed with Maxine. He felt in love. He knew it was crazy but he couldn't get along without her. He bailed her out of the frequent disasters in her life. They began to plot their getaway, which consumed his attention for months.
Harriett noticed the change in Howard, but thought he was just mourning his father's death. They continued to get along well, sex was as good as ever, and they enjoyed the same things they had always enjoyed. It was a shock to her when he told her he was moving out, that he didn't love her anymore, and that it had nothing whatever to do with Maxine, who would be leaving with him.
Harriett went into a rage and hit him. The children went berserk. The younger daughter cried inconsolably, the older one bulimic, the son quit school and refused to leave his room. I saw the family a few times, but Howard would not turn back. He left with Maxine, and would not return my phone calls. The kids were carrying on so on the telephone, Howard stopped calling them for a few months, not wanting to upset them. Meanwhile he and Maxine, who had left her kids behind as well, borrowed some money from his mother and moved to the coast where they bought into a marina--the only thing they had in common was the pleasure of fishing.
A year later, Harriet and the kids were still in therapy but they were getting along pretty well without him. Harriett was running the clothing store. Howard decided he missed his children and invited them to go fishing with him and Maxine. It surprised him when they still refused to speak to him. He called me and complained to me that his depression was a great deal worse. The marina was doing badly. He and Maxine weren't getting along very well. He missed his children and cried a lot, and she told him his preoccupation with his children was a betrayal of her. He blamed Harriett for fussing at him when she found out about Maxine. He believed she turned the children against him. He couldn't understand why anyone would be mad with him; he couldn't help who he loves and who he doesn't love.
MEN AND WOMEN WHO CHEAT
Howard's failure to understand the complex emotional consequences of his affair is typically male, just as Bette's insistence that her affair partner live up to her romantic fantasies is typically female. Any gender-based generalization is both irritating and inaccurate, but some behaviors are typical. Men tend to attach too little significance to affairs, ignoring their horrifying power to disorient and disrupt lives, while women tend to attach too much significance, assuming that the emotions are so powerful they must be "real" and therefore concrete, permanent, and stable enough to risk a life for.
A man, especially a philandering man, may feel comfortable having sex with a woman if it is clear that he is not in love with her. Even when a man understands that a rule has been broken and he expects consequences of some sort, he routinely underestimates the extent and range and duration of the reactions to his betrayal. Men may agree that the sex is wrong, but may believe that the lying is a noble effort to protect the family. A man may reason that outside sex is wrong because there is a rule against it, without understanding that his lying establishes an adversarial relationship with his mate and is the greater offense. Men are often surprised at the intensity of their betrayed mate's anger, and then even more surprised when she is willing to take him back. Men rarely appreciate the devastating long-range impact of their infidelities, or even their divorces, on their children.
Routinely, a man will tell me that he assured himself that he loved his wife before he hopped into a strange bed, that the woman there with him means nothing, that it is just a meaningless roll in the hay. A woman is more likely to tell me that at the sound of the zipper she quickly ascertained that she was not as much in love with her husband as she should have been, and the man there in bed with her was the true love of her life.
A woman seems likely to be less concerned with the letter of the law than with the emotional coherence of her life. It may be okay to screw a man if she "loves" him, whatever the status of his or her marriage, and it is certainly appropriate to lie to a man who believes he has a claim on you, but whom you don't love.
Women may be more concerned with the impact of their affairs on their children than they are with the effect on their mate, whom they have already devalued and discounted in anticipation of the affair. Of course, a woman is likely to feel the children would be in support of her affair, and thus may involve them in relaying her messages, keeping her secrets, and telling her lies. This can be mind-blowingly seductive and confusing to the kids. Sharing the secret of one parent's affair, and hiding it from the other parent, has essentially the same emotional impact as incest.
Some conventional wisdom about gender differences in infidelity is true.
More men than women do have affairs, but it seemed to me that before the AIDS epidemic, the rate for men was dropping (philandering has not been considered cute since the Kennedy's went out of power) and the rate for women was rising (women who assumed that all men were screwing around saw their own screwing around as a blow for equal rights.) In recent years, promiscuity seems suicidal so only the suicidal--that is, the romantics--are on the streets after dark.
Men are able to approach sex more casually than women, a factor not only of the patriarchal double standard but also of the difference between having genitals on the outside and having them on the inside. Getting laid for all the wrong reasons is a lot less dangerous than falling in love with all the wrong people.
Men who get caught screwing around are more likely to be honest about the sex than women. Men will confess the full sexual details, even if they are vague about the emotions. Women on the other hand will confess to total consuming love and suicidal desire to die with some man, while insisting no sex ever took place. I would believe that if I'd ever seen a man describe the affair as so consumingly intense from the waist up and so chaste from the waist down. I assume these women are lying to me about what they know they did or did not do, while I assume that the men really are honest about the genital ups and downs--and honestly confused about the emotional ones.
Women are more likely to discuss their love affairs with their women friends. Philandering men may turn their sex lives into a spectator sport but romantic men tend to keep their love life private from their men friends, and often just withdraw from their friends during the romance.
On the other hand, women are not more romantic than men. Men in love are every bit as foolish and a lot more naive than women in love. They go crazier and risk more. They are far more likely to sacrifice or abandon their children to prove their love to some recent affaire. They are more likely to isolate themselves from everyone except their affair partner, and turn their thinking and feeling over to her, applying her romantic ways of thinking (or not thinking) to the dilemmas of his increasingly chaotic life.
Men are just as forgiving as women of their mates' affairs. They might claim ahead of time that they would never tolerate it, but when push comes to shove, cuckolded men are every bit as likely as cuckolded women to fight like tigers to hold on to a marriage that has been betrayed. Cuckolded men may react violently at first, though cuckolded women do so as well, and I've seen more cases of women who shot and wounded or killed errant husbands. (The shootings occur not when the affair is stopped and confessed, but when it is continued and denied.)
Betrayed men, like betrayed women, hunker down and do whatever they have to do to hold their marriage together. A few men and women go into a rage and refuse to turn back, and then spend a lifetime nursing the narcissistic injury, but that unusual occurrence is no more common for men than for women. Marriage can survive either a husband's infidelity or a wife's, if it is stopped, brought into the open, and dealt with.
I have cleaned up from more affairs than a squad of motel chambermaids. Infidelity is a very messy hobby. It is not an effective way to find a new mate or a new life.
It is not a safe treatment for depression, boredom, imperfect marriage, or inadequate gender splendor. And it certainly does not impress the rest of us. It does not work for women any better than it does for men. It does excite the senses and the imaginations of those who merely hear the tales of lives and deaths for love, who melt at the sound of liebestods or country songs of love gone wrong.
I think I've gotten more from infidelity as an observer than all the participants I've seen. Infidelity is a spectator sport like shark feeding or bull fighting--that is, great for those innocent bystanders who are careful not to get their feet, or whatever, wet. For the greatest enjoyment of infidelity, I recommend you observe from a safe physical and emotional distance and avoid any suicidal impulse to become a participant.
Subscribe to Psychology Today Magazine
Publication: Psychology Today
Publication Date: May/Jun 93
Last Reviewed: 30 Aug 2004
(Document ID: 1681)
Beyond Betrayal: Life After Infidelity
By: Frank Pittman
Summary: Not all affairs are alike; some are even accidental.
Hour after hour, day after day in my office I see men and women who have been screwing around. They lead secret lives, as they hide themselves from their marriages. They go through wrenching divorces, inflicting pain on their children and their children's children. Or they make desperate, tearful, sweaty efforts at holding on to the shreds of a life they've betrayed. They tell me they have gone through all of this for a quick thrill or a furtive moment of romance. Sometimes they tell me they don't remember making the decision that tore apart their life: "It just happened." Sometimes they don't even know they are being unfaithful. (I tell them: "If you don't know whether what you are doing is an infidelity or not, ask your spouse.") From the outside looking in, it is insane. How could anyone risk everything in life on the turn of a screw? Infidelity was not something people did much in my family, so I always found it strange and noteworthy when people did it in my practice. After almost 30 years of cleaning up the mess after other people's affairs, I wrote a book describing everything about infidelity I'd seen in my practice. The book was Private Lies: Infidelity and the Betrayal of Intimacy (Norton). I thought it might help. Even if the tragedy of AIDS and the humiliation of prominent politicians hadn't stopped it, surely people could not continue screwing around after reading about the absurd destructiveness of it. As you know, people have not stopped having affairs. But many of them feel the need to write or call or drop by and talk to me about it. When I wrote Private Lies, I thought I knew everything there was to know about infidelity. But I know now that there is even more.
ACCIDENTAL INFIDELITY
All affairs are not alike. The thousands of affairs I've seen seem to fall into four broad categories. Most first affairs are cases of accidental infidelity, unintended and uncharacteristic acts of carelessness that really did "just happen." Someone will get drunk, will get caught up in the moment, will just be having a bad day. It can happen to anyone, though some people are more accident prone than others, and some situations are accident zones.
Many times a young man has started his career as a philanderer quite accidentally when he is traveling out of town on a new job with a philandering boss who chooses one of a pair of women and expects the young fellow to entertain the other. The most startling dynamic behind accidental infidelity is misplaced politeness, the feeling that it would be rude to turn down a needy friend's sexual advances. In the debonair gallantry of the moment, the brazen discourtesy to the marriage partner is overlooked altogether.
Both men and women can slip up and have accidental affairs, though the most accident-prone are those who drink, those who travel, those who don't get asked much, those who don't feel very tightly married, those whose running buddies screw around, and those who are afraid to run from a challenge. Most are men.
After an accidental infidelity, there is clearly the sense that one's life and marriage have changed. The choices are:
1. To decide that infidelity was a stupid thing to do, to confess it or not to do so, but to resolve to take better precautions in the future;
2. To decide you wouldn't have done such a thing unless your husband or wife had let you down, put the blame on your mate, and go home and pick your marriage to death;
3. To notice that lightning did not strike you dead, decide this would be a safe and inexpensive hobby to take up, and do it some more;
4. To decide that you would not have done such a thing if you were married to the right person, determine that this was meant to be, and declare yourself in love with the stranger in the bed.
ROMANTIC INFIDELITY
Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continuing living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate--someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own--is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your fife, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.
Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape.
People are most likely to get into these romantic affairs at the turning points of life: when their parents die or their children grow up; when they suffer health crises or are under pressure to give up an addiction; when they achieve an unexpected level of job success or job failure; or when their first child is born--any situation in which they must face a lot of reality and grow up. The better the marriage, the saner and more sensible the spouse, the more alienated the romantic is likely to feel. Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones.
Both genders seem equally capable of falling into the temporary insanity of romantic affairs, though women are more likely to reframe anything they do as having been done for love. Women in love are far more aware of what they are doing and what the dangers might be. Men in love can be extraordinarily incautious and willing to give up everything. Men in love lose their heads--at least for a while.
MARITAL ARRANGEMENTS
All marriages are imperfect, and probably a disappointment in one way or another, which is a piece of reality, not a license to mess around with the neighbors. There are some marriages that fail to provide a modicum of warmth, sex, sanity, companionship, money. There are awful marriages people can't get all the way into and can't get all the way out of, divorces people won't call off and can't go through, marriages that won't die and won't recover. Often people in such marriages make a marital arrangement by calling in marital aides to keep them company while they avoid living their life. Such practical affairs help them keep the marriage steady but distant. They thus encapsulate the marital deficiency, so the infidel can neither establish a life without the problems nor solve them. Affairs can wreck a good marriage, but can help stabilize a bad one.
People who get into marital arrangements are not necessarily the innocent victims of defective relationships. Some set out to keep their marriages defective and distant. I have seen men who have kept the same mistress through several marriages, arranging their marriages to serve some practical purpose while keeping their romance safely encapsulated elsewhere. The men considered it a victory over marriage; the exploited wives were outraged.
I encountered one woman who had long been involved with a married man. She got tired of waiting for him to get a divorce and married someone else. She didn't tell her husband about her affair, and she didn't tell her affaire about her marriage. She somehow thought they would never find out about one another. After a few exhausting and confusing weeks, the men met and confronted her. She cheerfully told them she loved them both and the arrangement seemed the sensible way to have her cake and eat it too. She couldn't understand why both the men felt cheated and deprived by her efforts to sacrifice their lives to satisfy her skittishness about total commitment.
Some of these arrangements can get quite complicated. One woman supported her house-husband and their kids by living as the mistress of an older married man, who spent his afternoons and weekend days with her and his evenings at home with his own children and his sexually boring wife. People averse to conflict might prefer such arrangements to therapy, or any other effort to actually solve the problems of the marriage.
Unhappily married people of either gender can establish marital arrangements to help them through the night. But men are more likely to focus on the practicality of the arrangement and diminish awareness of any threat to the stability of the marriage, while women are more likely to romanticize the arrangement and convince themselves it is leading toward an eventual union with the romantic partner. Networks of couples may spend their lives halfway through someone's divorce, usually with a guilt-ridden man reluctant to completely leave a marriage he has betrayed and even deserted, and a woman, no matter how hard she protests to the contrary, eternally hopeful for a wedding in the future.
Philandering
Philandering is a predominantly male activity. Philanderers take up infidelity as a hobby. Philanderers are likely to have a rigid and concrete concept of gender; they worship masculinity, and while they may be greatly attracted to women, they are mostly interested in having the woman affirm their masculinity. They don't really like women, and they certainly don't want an equal, intimate relationship with a member of the gender they insist is inferior, but far too powerful. They see women as dangerous, since women have the ability to assess a man's worth, to measure him and find him wanting, to determine whether he is man enough.
These men may or may not like sex, but they use it compulsively to affirm their masculinity and overcome both their homophobia and their fear of women. They can be cruel, abusive, and even violent to women who try to get control of them and stop the philandering they consider crucial to their masculinity. Their life is centered around displays of masculinity, however they define it, trying to impress women with their physical strength, competitive victories, seductive skills, mastery of all situations, power, wealth, and, if necessary, violence. Some of them are quite charming and have no trouble finding women eager to be abused by them.
Gay men can philander too, and the dynamics are the same for gay philanderers as for straight ones: the obvious avoidance of female sexual control, but also preoccupation with masculinity and the use of rampant sexuality for both reassurance and the measurement of manhood. When men have paid such an enormous social and interpersonal price for their preferred sexuality, they are likely to wrap an enormous amount of their identity around their sexuality and express that sexuality extensively.
Philanderers may be the sons of philanderers, or they may have learned their ideas about marriage and gender from their ethnic group or inadvertently from their religion. Somewhere they have gotten the idea that their masculinity is their most valuable attribute and it requires them to protect themselves from coming under female control. These guys may consider themselves quite principled and honorable, and they may follow the rules to the letter in their dealings with other men. But in their world women have no rights.
To men they may seem normal, but women experience them as narcissistic or even sociopathic. They think they are normal, that they are doing what every other real man would do if he weren't such a wimp. The notions of marital fidelity, of gender equality, of honesty and intimacy between husbands and wives seem quite foreign from what they learned growing up. The gender equality of monogamy may not feel compatible to men steeped in patriarchal beliefs in men being gods and women being ribs. Monogamous sexuality is difficult for men who worship Madonnas for their sexlessness and berate Eves for their seductiveness.
Philanderers' sexuality is fueled by anger and fear, and while they may be considered "sex addicts" they are really "gender compulsives" desperately doing whatever they think will make them look and feel most masculine. They put notches on their belts in hopes it will make their penises grow bigger. If they can get a woman to die for them, like opera composer Giacomo Puccini did in real life and in most of his operas, they feel like a real man.
Female Philanderers
There are female philanderers too, and they too are usually the daughters or ex-wives of philanderers. They are angry at men, because they believe all men screw around as their father or ex-husband did. A female philanderer is not likely to stay married for very long, since that would require her to make peace with a man, and as a woman to carry more than her share of the burden of marriage. Marriage grounds people in reality rather than transporting them into fantasy, so marriage is too loving, too demanding, too realistic, and not romantic enough for them.
I hear stories of female philanderers, such as Maria Riva's description of her mother, Marlene Dietrich. They appear to have insatiable sexual appetites but, on closer examination, they don't like sex much. They do like power over men, and underneath the philandering anger, they are plaintively seeking love.
Straying wives are rarely philanderers, but single women who mess around with married men are quite likely to be. Female philanderers prefer to raid other people's marriages, breaking up relationships, doing as much damage as possible, and then dancing off reaffirmed. Like male philanderers, female philanderers put their victims through all of this just to give themselves a sense of gender power.
Spider Woman
There are women who, by nature romantics, don't quite want to escape their own life and die for love. Instead they'd rather have some guy wreck his life for them. These women have been so recently betrayed by unfaithful men that the wound is still raw and they are out for revenge. A woman who angrily pursues married men is a "spider woman"--she requires human sacrifice to restore her sense of power.
When she is sucking the blood from other people's marriages, she feels some relief from the pain of having her own marriage betrayed. She simply requires that a man love her enough to sacrifice his life for her. She may be particularly attracted to happy marriages, clearly envious of the woman whose husband is faithful and loving to her. Sometimes it isn't clear whether she wants to replace the happy wife or just make her miserable.
The women who are least squeamish and most likely to wreak havoc on other people's marriages are victims of some sort of abuse, so angry that they don't feel bound by the usual rules or obligations, so desperate that they cling to any source of security, and so miserable that they don't bother to think a bit of the end of it.
Josephine Hart's novel Damage, and the Louis Malle film version of it, describe such a woman. She seduces her fiancee's depressed father, and after the fiancee discovers the affair and kills himself, she waltzes off from the wreckage of all the lives. She explains that her father disappeared long ago, her mother had been married four or five times, and her brother committed suicide when she left his bed and began to date other boys. She describes herself as damaged, and says: "Damaged people are dangerous. They know they can survive."
Bette was a spider woman. She came to see me only once, with her married affair partner Alvin, a man I had been seeing with his wife Agnes. But I kept up with her through the many people whose lives she touched. Bette's father had run off and left her and her mother when she was just a child, and her stepfather had exposed himself to her. Most recently Bette's manic husband Burt had run off with a stripper, Claudia, and had briefly married her before he crashed and went into a psychiatric hospital.
While Burt was with Claudia, the enraged Bette promptly latched on to Alvin, a laid-back philanderer who had been married to Agnes for decades and had been screwing around casually most of that time. Bette was determined that Alvin was going to divorce Agnes and marry her, desert his children, and raise her now-fatherless kids. The normally cheerful Alvin, who had done a good job for a lifetime of pleasing every woman he met and avoiding getting trapped by any of them, couldn't seem to escape Bette, but he certainly had no desire to leave Agnes. He grew increasingly depressed and suicidal. He felt better after he told the long-suffering Agnes, but he still couldn't move in any direction. Over the next couple of years, Bette and Alvin took turns threatening suicide, while Agnes tended her garden, raised her children, ran her business, and waited for the increasingly disoriented and pathetic Alvin to come to his senses.
Agnes finally became sufficiently alarmed about her husband's deterioration that she decided the only way she could save his life was to divorce him. She did, and Alvin promptly dumped Bette. He could not forgive her for what she had made him do to dear, sweet Agnes. He lost no time in taking up with Darlene, with whom he had been flirting for some time, but who wouldn't go out with a married man. Agnes felt relief, and the comfort of a good settlement, but Bette was once again abandoned and desperate.
She called Alvin hourly, alternately threatening suicide, reciting erotic poetry, and offering to fix him dinner. She phoned bomb threats to Darlene's office. Bette called me to tell me what a sociopathic jerk Alvin was to betray her with another woman after all she had done in helping him through his divorce. She wrote sisterly notes to Agnes, offering the comfort of friendship to help one another through the awful experience of being betrayed by this terrible man. At no point did Bette consider that she had done anything wrong. She was now, as she had been all her life, a victim of men, who not only use and abuse women, but won't lay down their lives to rescue them on cue.
EMOTIONALLY RETARDED MEN IN LOVE
About the only people more dangerous than philandering men going through life with an open fly and romantic damsels going through life in perennial distress, are emotionally retarded men in love. When such men go through a difficult transition in life, they hunker down and ignore all emotions. Their brain chemistry gets depressed, but they don't know how to feel it as depression. Their loved ones try to keep from bothering them, try to keep things calm and serene and isolate them further.
An emotionally retarded man may go for a time without feeling pleasure, pain, or anything else, until a strange woman jerks him back into awareness of something intense enough for him to feel it--perhaps sexual fireworks, or the boyish heroics of rescuing her, or perhaps just fascination with her constantly changing moods and never-ending emotional crises.
With her, he can pull out of his depression briefly, but he sinks back even deeper into it when he is not with her. He is getting addicted to her, but he doesn't know that. He only feels the absence of joy and love and life with his serenely cautious wife and kids, and the awareness of life with this new woman. It doesn't work for him to leave home to be with her, as she too would grow stale and irritating if she were around full time.
What he needs is not a crazier woman to sacrifice his life for, but treatment for his depression. However, since the best home remedies for depression are sex, exercise, joy, and triumph, the dangerous damsel may be providing one or more of them in a big enough dose to make him feel a lot better. He may feel pretty good until he gets the bill, and sees how much of his life and the lives of his loved ones this treatment is costing. Marriages that start this way, stepping over the bodies of loved ones as the giddy couple walks down the aisle, are not likely to last long.
Howard had been faithful to Harriett for 16 years. He had been happy with her. She made him feel loved, which no one else had ever tried to do. Howard devoted himself to doing the right thing. He always did what he was supposed to do and he never complained. In fact he said very little at all.
Howard worked at Harriett's father's store, a stylish and expensive mews clothiers. He had worked there in high school and returned after college. He'd never had another job. He had felt like a son to his father-in-law. But when the old man retired, he bypassed the stalwart, loyal Howard and made his own wastrel son manager.
Howard also took care of his own elderly parents who lived next door. His father died, and left a nice little estate to his mother, who then gave much of it to his younger brother, who had gotten into trouble with gambling and extravagance.
Howard felt betrayed, and sank into a depression. He talked of quitting his job and moving away. Harriett pointed out the impracticality of that for the kids. She reminded him of all the good qualities of his mother and her father.
Howard didn't bring it up again. Instead, he began to talk to Maxine, one of the tailors at the store, a tired middle-aged woman who shared Howard's disillusionment with the world. One day, Maxine called frightened because she smelled gas in her trailer and her third ex-husband had threatened to hurt her. She needed for Howard to come out and see if he could smell anything dangerous. He did, and somehow ended up in bed with Maxine. He felt in love. He knew it was crazy but he couldn't get along without her. He bailed her out of the frequent disasters in her life. They began to plot their getaway, which consumed his attention for months.
Harriett noticed the change in Howard, but thought he was just mourning his father's death. They continued to get along well, sex was as good as ever, and they enjoyed the same things they had always enjoyed. It was a shock to her when he told her he was moving out, that he didn't love her anymore, and that it had nothing whatever to do with Maxine, who would be leaving with him.
Harriett went into a rage and hit him. The children went berserk. The younger daughter cried inconsolably, the older one bulimic, the son quit school and refused to leave his room. I saw the family a few times, but Howard would not turn back. He left with Maxine, and would not return my phone calls. The kids were carrying on so on the telephone, Howard stopped calling them for a few months, not wanting to upset them. Meanwhile he and Maxine, who had left her kids behind as well, borrowed some money from his mother and moved to the coast where they bought into a marina--the only thing they had in common was the pleasure of fishing.
A year later, Harriet and the kids were still in therapy but they were getting along pretty well without him. Harriett was running the clothing store. Howard decided he missed his children and invited them to go fishing with him and Maxine. It surprised him when they still refused to speak to him. He called me and complained to me that his depression was a great deal worse. The marina was doing badly. He and Maxine weren't getting along very well. He missed his children and cried a lot, and she told him his preoccupation with his children was a betrayal of her. He blamed Harriett for fussing at him when she found out about Maxine. He believed she turned the children against him. He couldn't understand why anyone would be mad with him; he couldn't help who he loves and who he doesn't love.
MEN AND WOMEN WHO CHEAT
Howard's failure to understand the complex emotional consequences of his affair is typically male, just as Bette's insistence that her affair partner live up to her romantic fantasies is typically female. Any gender-based generalization is both irritating and inaccurate, but some behaviors are typical. Men tend to attach too little significance to affairs, ignoring their horrifying power to disorient and disrupt lives, while women tend to attach too much significance, assuming that the emotions are so powerful they must be "real" and therefore concrete, permanent, and stable enough to risk a life for.
A man, especially a philandering man, may feel comfortable having sex with a woman if it is clear that he is not in love with her. Even when a man understands that a rule has been broken and he expects consequences of some sort, he routinely underestimates the extent and range and duration of the reactions to his betrayal. Men may agree that the sex is wrong, but may believe that the lying is a noble effort to protect the family. A man may reason that outside sex is wrong because there is a rule against it, without understanding that his lying establishes an adversarial relationship with his mate and is the greater offense. Men are often surprised at the intensity of their betrayed mate's anger, and then even more surprised when she is willing to take him back. Men rarely appreciate the devastating long-range impact of their infidelities, or even their divorces, on their children.
Routinely, a man will tell me that he assured himself that he loved his wife before he hopped into a strange bed, that the woman there with him means nothing, that it is just a meaningless roll in the hay. A woman is more likely to tell me that at the sound of the zipper she quickly ascertained that she was not as much in love with her husband as she should have been, and the man there in bed with her was the true love of her life.
A woman seems likely to be less concerned with the letter of the law than with the emotional coherence of her life. It may be okay to screw a man if she "loves" him, whatever the status of his or her marriage, and it is certainly appropriate to lie to a man who believes he has a claim on you, but whom you don't love.
Women may be more concerned with the impact of their affairs on their children than they are with the effect on their mate, whom they have already devalued and discounted in anticipation of the affair. Of course, a woman is likely to feel the children would be in support of her affair, and thus may involve them in relaying her messages, keeping her secrets, and telling her lies. This can be mind-blowingly seductive and confusing to the kids. Sharing the secret of one parent's affair, and hiding it from the other parent, has essentially the same emotional impact as incest.
Some conventional wisdom about gender differences in infidelity is true.
More men than women do have affairs, but it seemed to me that before the AIDS epidemic, the rate for men was dropping (philandering has not been considered cute since the Kennedy's went out of power) and the rate for women was rising (women who assumed that all men were screwing around saw their own screwing around as a blow for equal rights.) In recent years, promiscuity seems suicidal so only the suicidal--that is, the romantics--are on the streets after dark.
Men are able to approach sex more casually than women, a factor not only of the patriarchal double standard but also of the difference between having genitals on the outside and having them on the inside. Getting laid for all the wrong reasons is a lot less dangerous than falling in love with all the wrong people.
Men who get caught screwing around are more likely to be honest about the sex than women. Men will confess the full sexual details, even if they are vague about the emotions. Women on the other hand will confess to total consuming love and suicidal desire to die with some man, while insisting no sex ever took place. I would believe that if I'd ever seen a man describe the affair as so consumingly intense from the waist up and so chaste from the waist down. I assume these women are lying to me about what they know they did or did not do, while I assume that the men really are honest about the genital ups and downs--and honestly confused about the emotional ones.
Women are more likely to discuss their love affairs with their women friends. Philandering men may turn their sex lives into a spectator sport but romantic men tend to keep their love life private from their men friends, and often just withdraw from their friends during the romance.
On the other hand, women are not more romantic than men. Men in love are every bit as foolish and a lot more naive than women in love. They go crazier and risk more. They are far more likely to sacrifice or abandon their children to prove their love to some recent affaire. They are more likely to isolate themselves from everyone except their affair partner, and turn their thinking and feeling over to her, applying her romantic ways of thinking (or not thinking) to the dilemmas of his increasingly chaotic life.
Men are just as forgiving as women of their mates' affairs. They might claim ahead of time that they would never tolerate it, but when push comes to shove, cuckolded men are every bit as likely as cuckolded women to fight like tigers to hold on to a marriage that has been betrayed. Cuckolded men may react violently at first, though cuckolded women do so as well, and I've seen more cases of women who shot and wounded or killed errant husbands. (The shootings occur not when the affair is stopped and confessed, but when it is continued and denied.)
Betrayed men, like betrayed women, hunker down and do whatever they have to do to hold their marriage together. A few men and women go into a rage and refuse to turn back, and then spend a lifetime nursing the narcissistic injury, but that unusual occurrence is no more common for men than for women. Marriage can survive either a husband's infidelity or a wife's, if it is stopped, brought into the open, and dealt with.
I have cleaned up from more affairs than a squad of motel chambermaids. Infidelity is a very messy hobby. It is not an effective way to find a new mate or a new life.
It is not a safe treatment for depression, boredom, imperfect marriage, or inadequate gender splendor. And it certainly does not impress the rest of us. It does not work for women any better than it does for men. It does excite the senses and the imaginations of those who merely hear the tales of lives and deaths for love, who melt at the sound of liebestods or country songs of love gone wrong.
I think I've gotten more from infidelity as an observer than all the participants I've seen. Infidelity is a spectator sport like shark feeding or bull fighting--that is, great for those innocent bystanders who are careful not to get their feet, or whatever, wet. For the greatest enjoyment of infidelity, I recommend you observe from a safe physical and emotional distance and avoid any suicidal impulse to become a participant.
Subscribe to Psychology Today Magazine
Publication: Psychology Today
Publication Date: May/Jun 93
Last Reviewed: 30 Aug 2004
(Document ID: 1681)
by TA: How the wayward get that way - 05/01/07 03:24 PM
When the 'dumb answers' thread was started, I had trouble restricting myself to two posts. There were about 137 dumb answers I could have dropped in right away. I notice the thread is still growing healthily, so clearly 'fog' is a universal mirth-maker.
I was also struck by Kat's thread on how tough it must be to be the deliverer of the dumb answer, the one deep in fog.
So yesterday, during an interminable technical seminar and a long motorway journey, I found myslef wondering just how WS's get into that situation. My own H has described his own situation to me very clearly, and I've generated my own homespun psychology to explain it. I suppose I'm still at the stage where I'm trying to make sense of everything.
So the following is a personal slant on what I think goes on in the mind of affair partners, and how I think the fog works. It's talking about the 'soulmate' kind of affair - I think fling-type affairs follow different paths. I'd find it useful to know if it matches with others' experiences.
And it's LONG.
To begin with, I believe that 'fog' is a distorted reality.
‘Reality’ for each of us, consists principally of two things – our ‘life model’, and our value system.
The ‘life model’ is the picture we have in our head of how the world works, how people interact with each other. As with an engineering model, we feed possibilities into it and come up with predictions. The accuracy of the model is dependent on many things – how good a starter pack our parents gave us, how detailed we’ve made the model, how much we’ve tested it by running sample data through. Some people have highly accurate models and are considered ‘shrewd’, and some have poor predictive powers and are thought naive. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle.
Our values system is what we use to guide us through life. It’s the set of rules and restrictions and codes that we innately believe will give us the best chance in life. It can be a narrow set – “what’s best for ME”, can revolve around the family, or can be very broad – “what’s in the best interests of the community (town, nation, world)?”
Some of our values are personal – we’ve learned hard lessons from our own experience. – “Don’t steal, or you’ll get a record.’ Some we’ve unconsciously absorbed from our parents – “It’s wrong to steal”. Some we adopt to fit in with peer group ideals – “Her son was done for burglary, isn’t it awful?”.
When we engage with a life-partner, we usually pick someone with a similar values system to our own, and we work hard to bring those systems together. This is not lovey-dovey stuff - it’s innately practical. If we are both bound by the same restrictions and drivers, we are likely to support and reinforce each other. We will be able to ‘trust’ – to confidently predict the other’s actions and opinions – and will therefore have a solid platform on which to base our life.
Our values system is based implicitly on our life model, and it works by reward and punishment. If we conform to our values, we build self-esteem and feel good about ourselves. If we violate our values, we feel discomfort. We attempt to get away from the discomfort by a) confessing and apologising, ie reconforming to values, or b) stuffing the discomfort down, or c) altering the values system so that we don’t appear to have breached it.
When an affair begins, there is usually huge temptation involved – for whatever reason. The temptation overwhelms the values system – when the WS says “I didn’t think…” , that’s exactly right. The normal mental mechanisms were not in play, largely because the life model was not sophisticated or accurate enough to detect what was happening nor predict the likely consequences, or because an intensity of resentment or anger caused normal mechanisms to be deliberately ignored. There is a ‘fantasy leap’, almost like a leap of religious faith. This leap says ‘ I want some fun / excitement / attention. I deserve that. I believe that this will make me feel better, and I believe I can control it, and get what I want out of it.”
The ‘denial’ mechanism can’t operate for long – the values system is too powerful for that. But by the time the underlying values system kicks in, the two affair partners have usually got themselves in sufficiently deep for there to be painful drawbacks in pulling out, and significant benefits in staying in. Excitement and pleasure oppose pain and discomfort.
For most people, an affair is a serious violation of their values system, so that sooner or later, the intense discomfort of values-betrayal is felt. This is heavy-duty pain, the kind that the WS is keen to escape from, like appendicitis. So how do they escape that pain? See above. They could a) confess – but of course it’s not something trivial they’d be confessing, so forget that, b) stuff the discomfort down, or c) alter the values system.
I suspect that most WS’s begin by trying to stuff the pain. But it’s too big – like getting an elephant into a suitcase. So there is really only one way to go. The values system has to change. It seems likely that the WS moves rapidly away from such intense pain – perhaps so quickly that its presence is not even noticed.
So the WS’s position metamorphoses:
1) It’s wrong to have an affair.
2) Friendship is not an affair.
3) Affairs are only wrong if they threaten the marriage. This is a friendship-with-sex and does not threaten the marriage.
4) The outside relationship ‘brightens’ me, and is therefore good for the marriage.
5) Other people are inexperienced. They don’t understand the power of a passionate friendship, and how enriching it is.
6) This affair is not wrong. In fact, I could not live without it.
The process is driven, I suspect, by a factor which none of the literature seems to comment on much – the fact that TWO people are involved.
Both affair partners are having to alter their values systems to accommodate what they’re doing. This feels uncomfortable, so they look to each other for confirmation that they’re justified in acting as they are. Neither wants to believe that they’re involved with someone whose values system is easily changed – that would be weak - so they must each work hard to convince each other that they are good, that their values are altering only because they are ‘growing’, becoming too complex and sophisticated / visceral / emotionally liberated for the old realities as personified by their spouses. They therefore reinforce each other, generating a self-perpetuating cycle that builds like a fire in heavy winds.
In addition, the same values-converging process that happened with the marital partners operates on the affair partners. Ironically, there is a strong need for security, perhaps to replace the dwindling security that the marriage is likely to provide (if the affair is exposed). The affair partners therefore work to keep each other ‘in’ the relationship by escalating involvement and increasing the other’s personal investment.
The desperate need to believe in the security of the relationship, in its ability to support and nurture, in its essential goodness, leads to what looks from the outside to be reckless behaviour. There is a mutual denial of the dangers of STDs or pregnancy.
By this time, the WS’s values systems are a LONG way from where they began.
Think back to what a values system is. It’s a set of beliefs based on a life model – the most realistic picture an individual can generate of how the world works. To support the altered values system, there has to be an altered life model (the one that says, eg, affairs won’t hurt my family).
The problem with the altered life model is that it’s not realistic. It starts from a premise that’s innately flawed – that it is OK for this individual to have this affair. The flaw distorts all logic.
Imagine that you postulated a theory that air would support your weight if there was enough of it under you, ie if you got high enough above the ground. Obviously, water supports large ships under a similar theory, so it’s a reasonable conjecture. The theory would look OK as long as you didn’t have to personally prove it. We can see that skydivers don’t appear to conform to the principle, but perhaps that’s just because they don’t get high enough?
Once you’re working to this theory, it becomes obvious that planes are a rather naïve concept. All that going-fast when all they have to do is climb up to the level where they’re supported by air molecules! The notion that satellites have to orbit at high speed is also clearly daft – at that height the trouble would be getting them down!
The affair partners are now operating far above safe oxygen levels. But to them, everything makes perfect sense.
This is ‘fog’.
The flawed model is a poor predictor. It fails as soon as it’s put to a real-world test. In fact, it fails all the time. In truth, it fails so frequently that the affairees must exert colossal energy just to keep themselves in the suspension of disbelief. And the self-delusion may eventually be exposed by real-world reactions that cannot easily be denied or ignored – the anguish of children, the disappointment on a mother’s face, the lash of a lawyer’s letter.
So what’s happening to the marriage, while all of this is going on?
To begin with, the WS moves between the two realities with a sense of excitement. It’s an escape. But, as the two realities diverge, there is increasing discomfort at the difficulty of bridging the two, of making the transition between them. To counter this, and because the affair is where the excitement is, a sense of anger, indignation and self-righteousness develops that the WS is ‘having’ to lie and deceive. If only the BS’s could be sophisticated enough to understand the benefits of the arrangement! If the BS’s were not so selfish, they would be glad that the WS’s are happy! It is infuriating that the stupid, inflexible BS’s would inevitably whinge and complain and wreck the perfect love of two people who were destined for each other…
There is no counter-balancing argument from the BS, because the BS does not know what is going on. But the likelihood is that the spouse has an instinctive awareness that something is wrong, and is becoming defensive and confrontational. The marriage is becoming an uncomfortable environment.
So the WS has now manoeuvred themselves into a position where the only source of acceptance and pleasure is with the OP. The WS inevitably moves further away from the marriage.
The affair usually loses its flavour, as the affairees begin to know each other and recognise that the affair partner is far from an improvement on the marital partner, and that the effort involved is no longer justified by the benefits. But as the emotional bond weakens, the two affairees may perversely cling to each other even more tightly, though not always at the same time. There is probably a bond of friendship, hopelessly complicated by the sexual connection and conspiracy to bteray.
By now they are in a position where exposure of the affair seems likely to end the two marriages anyway. The marriages are now so tarnished – the WS’s have moved so far away from the original values systems still supported by their spouses – that the affair, for all its misery, is now a more likely candidate for the future than the marriage. Both WS’s are locked in a death-spiral – each is terrified that the affair partner will leave the affair to recover the marriage, leaving one WS abandoned and hopeless. And at least one WS may be trapped by the terror of having to establish permanence with the affair partner, or be alone.
So what about the ‘fog’? The WS is moving between two realities; he or she is effectively two people. There is a ‘flickering’ effect, like moving between perceptions in a magic-eye picture. Sometimes WS#2 flickers into life in Reality #1. If the bad reception makes it difficult for the BS to ‘see’ the wayward spouse, the discontinuity makes it impossible for the WS to ‘see’ the old reality clearly too. WS convinces themselves that all is unchanged and well in the old life. They may even become angry if the BS is liberal with the old value system. It is necessary for the BS to be predictable via a well-understood parcel of values, in order for the WS’s deceit to work. There may also be a need, unacknowledged, for the BS to act as keeper-of-the-flame, to vicariously hold to what the WS has lost, to be a solid platform to return to.
And then comes dday, and the clash of matter and anti-matter, as the two realities meet. For the first time, the WS is presented with penetrating questions about the logic of the affair’s life-model. For the first time, the illogicality of the affair’s premise is exposed. The WS must defend the affair, or appear hilariously stupid. Defending the affair with dodgy logic has been the option for the life of the affair; the dodgy logic has been vigorously supported by the OP, so that the WS has had no practice in providing a reasonable defence. Small wonder that the WS feels threatened and humiliated and hits back. Small wonder that the arguments are so feeble – the same feeble arguments have been applauded as sage wisdom for so long, the WS is profoundly indignant at being challenged in any way. At this point, the WS provides us with all of those witty sayings that we howl at on the ‘dumb answer’threads.
At this point, the WS can head off in one of several directions. They might retreat permanently. They might reluctantly acknowledge that some of the logic was flawed, and move slowly back into the old values system. They might recognise immediately the mistake they have made, and set about with energy and determination to fix the mess they have created. Or they might settle for a fortress mentality and stubbornly defend what they’ve done, in unconscious fear that being wrong means being annihilated.
There seem to be lots of each WS type here on this board.
Has anyone reached this point without unconsciousness overtaking them?
TA
I was also struck by Kat's thread on how tough it must be to be the deliverer of the dumb answer, the one deep in fog.
So yesterday, during an interminable technical seminar and a long motorway journey, I found myslef wondering just how WS's get into that situation. My own H has described his own situation to me very clearly, and I've generated my own homespun psychology to explain it. I suppose I'm still at the stage where I'm trying to make sense of everything.
So the following is a personal slant on what I think goes on in the mind of affair partners, and how I think the fog works. It's talking about the 'soulmate' kind of affair - I think fling-type affairs follow different paths. I'd find it useful to know if it matches with others' experiences.
And it's LONG.
To begin with, I believe that 'fog' is a distorted reality.
‘Reality’ for each of us, consists principally of two things – our ‘life model’, and our value system.
The ‘life model’ is the picture we have in our head of how the world works, how people interact with each other. As with an engineering model, we feed possibilities into it and come up with predictions. The accuracy of the model is dependent on many things – how good a starter pack our parents gave us, how detailed we’ve made the model, how much we’ve tested it by running sample data through. Some people have highly accurate models and are considered ‘shrewd’, and some have poor predictive powers and are thought naive. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle.
Our values system is what we use to guide us through life. It’s the set of rules and restrictions and codes that we innately believe will give us the best chance in life. It can be a narrow set – “what’s best for ME”, can revolve around the family, or can be very broad – “what’s in the best interests of the community (town, nation, world)?”
Some of our values are personal – we’ve learned hard lessons from our own experience. – “Don’t steal, or you’ll get a record.’ Some we’ve unconsciously absorbed from our parents – “It’s wrong to steal”. Some we adopt to fit in with peer group ideals – “Her son was done for burglary, isn’t it awful?”.
When we engage with a life-partner, we usually pick someone with a similar values system to our own, and we work hard to bring those systems together. This is not lovey-dovey stuff - it’s innately practical. If we are both bound by the same restrictions and drivers, we are likely to support and reinforce each other. We will be able to ‘trust’ – to confidently predict the other’s actions and opinions – and will therefore have a solid platform on which to base our life.
Our values system is based implicitly on our life model, and it works by reward and punishment. If we conform to our values, we build self-esteem and feel good about ourselves. If we violate our values, we feel discomfort. We attempt to get away from the discomfort by a) confessing and apologising, ie reconforming to values, or b) stuffing the discomfort down, or c) altering the values system so that we don’t appear to have breached it.
When an affair begins, there is usually huge temptation involved – for whatever reason. The temptation overwhelms the values system – when the WS says “I didn’t think…” , that’s exactly right. The normal mental mechanisms were not in play, largely because the life model was not sophisticated or accurate enough to detect what was happening nor predict the likely consequences, or because an intensity of resentment or anger caused normal mechanisms to be deliberately ignored. There is a ‘fantasy leap’, almost like a leap of religious faith. This leap says ‘ I want some fun / excitement / attention. I deserve that. I believe that this will make me feel better, and I believe I can control it, and get what I want out of it.”
The ‘denial’ mechanism can’t operate for long – the values system is too powerful for that. But by the time the underlying values system kicks in, the two affair partners have usually got themselves in sufficiently deep for there to be painful drawbacks in pulling out, and significant benefits in staying in. Excitement and pleasure oppose pain and discomfort.
For most people, an affair is a serious violation of their values system, so that sooner or later, the intense discomfort of values-betrayal is felt. This is heavy-duty pain, the kind that the WS is keen to escape from, like appendicitis. So how do they escape that pain? See above. They could a) confess – but of course it’s not something trivial they’d be confessing, so forget that, b) stuff the discomfort down, or c) alter the values system.
I suspect that most WS’s begin by trying to stuff the pain. But it’s too big – like getting an elephant into a suitcase. So there is really only one way to go. The values system has to change. It seems likely that the WS moves rapidly away from such intense pain – perhaps so quickly that its presence is not even noticed.
So the WS’s position metamorphoses:
1) It’s wrong to have an affair.
2) Friendship is not an affair.
3) Affairs are only wrong if they threaten the marriage. This is a friendship-with-sex and does not threaten the marriage.
4) The outside relationship ‘brightens’ me, and is therefore good for the marriage.
5) Other people are inexperienced. They don’t understand the power of a passionate friendship, and how enriching it is.
6) This affair is not wrong. In fact, I could not live without it.
The process is driven, I suspect, by a factor which none of the literature seems to comment on much – the fact that TWO people are involved.
Both affair partners are having to alter their values systems to accommodate what they’re doing. This feels uncomfortable, so they look to each other for confirmation that they’re justified in acting as they are. Neither wants to believe that they’re involved with someone whose values system is easily changed – that would be weak - so they must each work hard to convince each other that they are good, that their values are altering only because they are ‘growing’, becoming too complex and sophisticated / visceral / emotionally liberated for the old realities as personified by their spouses. They therefore reinforce each other, generating a self-perpetuating cycle that builds like a fire in heavy winds.
In addition, the same values-converging process that happened with the marital partners operates on the affair partners. Ironically, there is a strong need for security, perhaps to replace the dwindling security that the marriage is likely to provide (if the affair is exposed). The affair partners therefore work to keep each other ‘in’ the relationship by escalating involvement and increasing the other’s personal investment.
The desperate need to believe in the security of the relationship, in its ability to support and nurture, in its essential goodness, leads to what looks from the outside to be reckless behaviour. There is a mutual denial of the dangers of STDs or pregnancy.
By this time, the WS’s values systems are a LONG way from where they began.
Think back to what a values system is. It’s a set of beliefs based on a life model – the most realistic picture an individual can generate of how the world works. To support the altered values system, there has to be an altered life model (the one that says, eg, affairs won’t hurt my family).
The problem with the altered life model is that it’s not realistic. It starts from a premise that’s innately flawed – that it is OK for this individual to have this affair. The flaw distorts all logic.
Imagine that you postulated a theory that air would support your weight if there was enough of it under you, ie if you got high enough above the ground. Obviously, water supports large ships under a similar theory, so it’s a reasonable conjecture. The theory would look OK as long as you didn’t have to personally prove it. We can see that skydivers don’t appear to conform to the principle, but perhaps that’s just because they don’t get high enough?
Once you’re working to this theory, it becomes obvious that planes are a rather naïve concept. All that going-fast when all they have to do is climb up to the level where they’re supported by air molecules! The notion that satellites have to orbit at high speed is also clearly daft – at that height the trouble would be getting them down!
The affair partners are now operating far above safe oxygen levels. But to them, everything makes perfect sense.
This is ‘fog’.
The flawed model is a poor predictor. It fails as soon as it’s put to a real-world test. In fact, it fails all the time. In truth, it fails so frequently that the affairees must exert colossal energy just to keep themselves in the suspension of disbelief. And the self-delusion may eventually be exposed by real-world reactions that cannot easily be denied or ignored – the anguish of children, the disappointment on a mother’s face, the lash of a lawyer’s letter.
So what’s happening to the marriage, while all of this is going on?
To begin with, the WS moves between the two realities with a sense of excitement. It’s an escape. But, as the two realities diverge, there is increasing discomfort at the difficulty of bridging the two, of making the transition between them. To counter this, and because the affair is where the excitement is, a sense of anger, indignation and self-righteousness develops that the WS is ‘having’ to lie and deceive. If only the BS’s could be sophisticated enough to understand the benefits of the arrangement! If the BS’s were not so selfish, they would be glad that the WS’s are happy! It is infuriating that the stupid, inflexible BS’s would inevitably whinge and complain and wreck the perfect love of two people who were destined for each other…
There is no counter-balancing argument from the BS, because the BS does not know what is going on. But the likelihood is that the spouse has an instinctive awareness that something is wrong, and is becoming defensive and confrontational. The marriage is becoming an uncomfortable environment.
So the WS has now manoeuvred themselves into a position where the only source of acceptance and pleasure is with the OP. The WS inevitably moves further away from the marriage.
The affair usually loses its flavour, as the affairees begin to know each other and recognise that the affair partner is far from an improvement on the marital partner, and that the effort involved is no longer justified by the benefits. But as the emotional bond weakens, the two affairees may perversely cling to each other even more tightly, though not always at the same time. There is probably a bond of friendship, hopelessly complicated by the sexual connection and conspiracy to bteray.
By now they are in a position where exposure of the affair seems likely to end the two marriages anyway. The marriages are now so tarnished – the WS’s have moved so far away from the original values systems still supported by their spouses – that the affair, for all its misery, is now a more likely candidate for the future than the marriage. Both WS’s are locked in a death-spiral – each is terrified that the affair partner will leave the affair to recover the marriage, leaving one WS abandoned and hopeless. And at least one WS may be trapped by the terror of having to establish permanence with the affair partner, or be alone.
So what about the ‘fog’? The WS is moving between two realities; he or she is effectively two people. There is a ‘flickering’ effect, like moving between perceptions in a magic-eye picture. Sometimes WS#2 flickers into life in Reality #1. If the bad reception makes it difficult for the BS to ‘see’ the wayward spouse, the discontinuity makes it impossible for the WS to ‘see’ the old reality clearly too. WS convinces themselves that all is unchanged and well in the old life. They may even become angry if the BS is liberal with the old value system. It is necessary for the BS to be predictable via a well-understood parcel of values, in order for the WS’s deceit to work. There may also be a need, unacknowledged, for the BS to act as keeper-of-the-flame, to vicariously hold to what the WS has lost, to be a solid platform to return to.
And then comes dday, and the clash of matter and anti-matter, as the two realities meet. For the first time, the WS is presented with penetrating questions about the logic of the affair’s life-model. For the first time, the illogicality of the affair’s premise is exposed. The WS must defend the affair, or appear hilariously stupid. Defending the affair with dodgy logic has been the option for the life of the affair; the dodgy logic has been vigorously supported by the OP, so that the WS has had no practice in providing a reasonable defence. Small wonder that the WS feels threatened and humiliated and hits back. Small wonder that the arguments are so feeble – the same feeble arguments have been applauded as sage wisdom for so long, the WS is profoundly indignant at being challenged in any way. At this point, the WS provides us with all of those witty sayings that we howl at on the ‘dumb answer’threads.
At this point, the WS can head off in one of several directions. They might retreat permanently. They might reluctantly acknowledge that some of the logic was flawed, and move slowly back into the old values system. They might recognise immediately the mistake they have made, and set about with energy and determination to fix the mess they have created. Or they might settle for a fortress mentality and stubbornly defend what they’ve done, in unconscious fear that being wrong means being annihilated.
There seem to be lots of each WS type here on this board.
Has anyone reached this point without unconsciousness overtaking them?
TA
courtesy of: TooSoonToBeComfortable - 05/01/07 03:28 PM
I borrowed this from another Web Site on Infidelity. It sounded like the steps my FWW described to me as she explained her affair to me.
-----------------------------
This was a handout for a church group (the statistics are almost identical for church and non-church members when it comes to adultery and divorce) but it does a good job of defining how affairs develop for far too many people. The progression from friend to sexual intimacy and betrayal. It is provided in the hope that it will help newcomers to the forum gain some understanding of what has happened and how it could or might have happened.
Anatomy of Adultery
15 Steps of Unfaithfulness
How does adultery "happen?" People don't just decide one day to hop in bed and be unfaithful to their spouse. Adultery is the culminating act of a dozen or more tiny steps of unfaithfulness. Each step in itself does not seem that serious or much beyond the previous step. Satan draws a person into adultery one tiny step at a time. And he does this over time so that our conscience is gradually seared. This makes it easier to take "just one more step" thinking such a tiny step won't hurt us.
The following "15 steps" which analyze how adultery "happens" are based on scores of interviews, counseling, and correspondence with church folk who fell into unfaithfulness. Our question: "How did this happen... what were the tiny steps which led to this mess?" While the order varied from case to case, the following is the general progression which surfaced in most incidents. This is not some sort of theoretical list. These are the actual steps taken by scores of church people who wound up committing adultery and regretting it later. Some of these people sobbed deeply as they shared, hoping that their own pain and failure might save other marriages. This information comes to you at great expense.
This chapter doesn't have any preaching or analysis... that is left to you. Here we offer you cold word-for-word quotes. You and your Sunday School class can draw out the lessons. How did these lives get ruined? How does it start?
1. Sharing Common Interests.
"We just had so much in common, it was uncanny."
"She and I both enjoyed music, and we were attracted to each other."
"He was so spiritually-minded... I'd been looking for someone to share my spiritual struggles with."
"We both loved horses, and started riding together."
"We both shared a burden for the church and especially children's work."
"She was the first woman I'd ever met who liked the outdoors, even hunting and fishing -- I was fascinated!"
2. Mentally comparing with my mate.
"My husband wasn't interested much in spiritual things, but this man knew so much about the Bible."
"She was slim, attractive, and dressed sharp -- quite a difference from my wife who didn't take care of herself much at that time."
"She was so understanding and would listen to me and my hurts -- my wife was always so busy and rushed that we didn't have the time to talk.
"My husband just would never communicate -- he'd come home from work and just sit there watching TV. I finally gave up on him. Then this man came along who was worlds apart from my husband -- he was gentile, loved to talk, and would just share little things about his life with me."
3. Meeting emotional needs.
"He understood how I was feeling and offered me the empathy I was hungering for."
"She was there when I needed her."
"My ego was so starved for affirmation that I would have taken it from anyone -- I guess that's what started the whole thing."
"No one had ever really believed in me until he came along. He encouraged me, inspired me, and believed so deeply in what I could become."
"My wife was busy with the kids and not at all involved with my work. This girl admired me and treated me like I was really somebody. It felt so good."
4. Looking forward to being together.
"I used to dread going to work, but after we started our friendship, I would wake up thinking of how I would see him later that day... it seemed to make getting up easier."
"I would think of being with her the whole time I was driving to work."
"I found myself thinking of him as I got dressed each morning, wondering how he would like a certain outfit or perfume."
"I looked forward to choir practice every week because I knew he would be there."
"Every time I drove by her house I would think of her and how we'd see each other that Sunday."
5. Tinges of dishonesty with my mate.
"When my wife would ask if she was with the group I'd pretend I couldn't remember... right there I started building a wall between us."
"I would act like I was going to practice with our ensemble, but actually I was practicing a duet with him."
"Once my wife asked about her, but I denied everything, after all, we hadn't done anything wrong yet. Now I see that this was one of those exit points where I could have come clean and got off the road I was speeding down."
"Whenever we got together as couples I would act like I didn't care about him, and afterward I would even criticize him to my husband. I guess I was trying to hide my real feelings from my husband."
6. Flirting and teasing.
"I could tell from the way she looked at me. She would gaze directly into my eyes, then furtively glance down my body then back into my eyes again -- I knew then that she was interested in more than my friendship. But, I was so flattered by her interest that I couldn't escape."
"Then we started teasing each other, often with double-meaning kind of things. Sometimes we'd tease each other even when we were together as two couples. It seemed innocent enough at first, but more and more we knew it really did mean something to us."
"We would laugh and talk about how it seemed like we were "made for each other" so much. Then we'd tease each other about what kind of husband or wife the other one would have been if we'd married each other."
"He had those killer eyes. When he'd look at me in that "special way" I would just melt. It was hopeless fighting my urges -- he had me."
7. Talking about personal matters.
"We would talk about things -- not big things, just little things which he cared about, or I was worried about."
"We'd meet together for coffee before church and just talk together."
"I was having problems with my son and she seemed to understand the whole situation so much better than anyone else I talked with. I'd tell her about the most recent blow-up and she would understand so well. We just became really deep friends -- almost soul-mates. That's what's so weird about all this -- we never intended for it to go this far."
"I had lost my Dad just before we got to know each other and he had lost his mother a few years earlier. He seemed to understand exactly what I was going through and we would talk for hours about how each of us felt."
"I was so lonely since my husband died and hungry for someone to share life with. Then he began to call just because he cared. I loved hearing his caring voice at the other end of the line, even though I knew he was married."
"We spent so much time together at work that I swear she knew more about me than my wife ever did -- or even cared to know."
8. Minor yet arousing touch, squeeze, or hug.
"He never touched me for months. Then one night after working late, we were walking toward the door when he said 'You're so special, thanks for all you do..." then he turned and hugged me tenderly, just for a second. I loved how I felt for that moment so much that I began to replay it over and over again in my mind like a videotape. Now I know that I should have stopped it all right then. I never intended to ruin my family like this."
"She was always hanging around our house and was my wife's best friend. Often she would stay late to watch TV, even after my wife went to bed. She would sit beside me on the couch and I was drawn to her like the song says... like a moth to the flame."
"He would often pat me on the shoulder -- you know, in appreciation for a good job I'd done. But I knew it meant more than that."
"The first time she touched me was when we were doing registration together. We were sitting beside each other. I'd say something cute or funny and she would giggle, then under the table she'd squeeze the top of my leg with her hand. That was really exciting to me."
"Every time she shook hands with me at the door she seemed to linger, sort of holding my hand more than shaking it. No one else would notice, but I knew there was more to her touch than appeared to the eyes. She knew too."
9. Special notes or gifts.
"He would write these little encouraging notes and leave them in my desk, pocketbook, or taped to my computer. They didn't say anything which could be traced. If anyone found them they wouldn't suspect anything. But we both knew what was going on, we just didn't want to stop yet."
"I would sometimes call him and leave a short message on his answering machine. He would leave little notes in my Bible."
"He would buy me a little gift -- not that expensive, but it always showed he had taken extra thought to get exactly what I liked. Of course everyone else thought he was just being a good boss."
"She started leaving unsigned notes to me in my desk sharing her feelings for me. It scared me at first, because I thought someone would find one. But after a while I found myself looking forward to the next one, even though I knew the risk."
10. Inventing excuses to call or meet.
"I started figuring out ways I could drop off something at her house when her husband was gone. He and I knew each other and I would always return borrowed tools in the afternoon when I knew she'd be there alone."
"I would wait until the end of the workday then I'd call him just before closing time about something I'd made up as a 'business question' and we'd talk."
"The more entangled we got, the more I planned times where he and I could practice together. We started meeting more often."
"She started arranging her schedule so that her husband dropped her off at committee meetings. I would hang around and offer to take her home, acting with as much nonchalance as I could muster up."
11. Arranging secret meetings.
"By now we both were so far gone that we started meeting secretly at the mall parking lot. It know now how foolish this was, but I was driven by something other than good sense at that time."
"We started arranging to work evenings on the same nights, then we would leave early and meet each other in the dark parking lot."
"I started making sure he knew my travel schedule so we could attend the same conferences. We still weren't involved physically at that time, but there was such excitement and romance to it all... even the secrecy seemed to make it more exciting."
"She would sometimes call me just before lunch and we'd sneak through a drive-up together, and then spend the rest of my lunch hour talking quietly to each other."
12. Deceit and cover ups.
"Once we were meeting secretly I had to invent all kinds of stories about where I'd been to satisfy my wife. By now I had built a towering wall of dishonesty between us."
"Pretty soon my whole life was full of lies. I'd lie about where I was going, where I'd been, and who I'd been with. The more suspicious my husband got, the better liar I became. But he knew something was going on. It's hard to lie without people suspecting it."
"I joined several groups so that I would have an excuse to be away in the evenings."
"She would ask when I'd gotten off work. I'd simply lie about it, and she never knew what hit her. How can I ever regain her trust now?"
"We agreed that if anyone saw us driving around we would both tell the same story: that my car wouldn't start, he stopped to help, an we were going together to get a new fuse to replace the broken one he'd discovered."
"By now my whole life was a lie, so I began telling them regularly to cover up our little meetings."
13. Kissing and embracing.
"The whole thing seemed so exciting by now. I was such a fool. We were meeting secretly and both of us were fearful of being caught. But that only seemed to increase our common ground. When we'd meet, we would embrace as if we'd not been together for years -- like in the movies when someone comes home from the war."
"Once we started meeting secretly the end came fast. We kissed and hugged like two teenagers going parking for their first time."
"It just felt so good to be hugged and loved by somebody who really cared about me."
14. Petting and high indiscretion.
"At this point my glands took over. I forgot reason altogether and was willing to risk everything for more."
"It was like I was a teenager again -- going too far, then repenting and promising to do better; then just as quick I was hungrily seeking more sin."
"When my husband and I were dating we struggled with 'how far to go.' Well, here I was again struggling over the same issue. Friendship with this guy didn't seem so wrong. But now were we're going further than I ever intended. But, I felt curiously justified going exactly as far as I had with my husband when had been dating. In a way, I think some of my resentment against my husband's constant pressure on me started coming out. I'm not saying that it wasn't wrong. Just that I kind of felt justified."
"At about this time I began fooling myself into thinking I was heroic for not going "all the way." That's what I wanted to do. But by doing "everything but" I fooled myself into thinking I was successfully resisting temptation. What I didn't realize was that, not only was what I was doing wrong, but that eventually I would take the next step. It's just not possible to freeze a relationship -- you have to go ahead with it, or break it off totally."
15. Sexual intercourse.
"Soon I quit resisting and was swept into outright adultery."
"One thing led to another and finally we ended up in bed with each other."
"Though we never intended it to go that far, we eventually went all the way and had sex."
"One night we couldn't seem to stop ourselves (at least we didn't want to) so I completed my journey of unfaithfulness to my husband -- I had sex with this man."
-----------------------------
This was a handout for a church group (the statistics are almost identical for church and non-church members when it comes to adultery and divorce) but it does a good job of defining how affairs develop for far too many people. The progression from friend to sexual intimacy and betrayal. It is provided in the hope that it will help newcomers to the forum gain some understanding of what has happened and how it could or might have happened.
Anatomy of Adultery
15 Steps of Unfaithfulness
How does adultery "happen?" People don't just decide one day to hop in bed and be unfaithful to their spouse. Adultery is the culminating act of a dozen or more tiny steps of unfaithfulness. Each step in itself does not seem that serious or much beyond the previous step. Satan draws a person into adultery one tiny step at a time. And he does this over time so that our conscience is gradually seared. This makes it easier to take "just one more step" thinking such a tiny step won't hurt us.
The following "15 steps" which analyze how adultery "happens" are based on scores of interviews, counseling, and correspondence with church folk who fell into unfaithfulness. Our question: "How did this happen... what were the tiny steps which led to this mess?" While the order varied from case to case, the following is the general progression which surfaced in most incidents. This is not some sort of theoretical list. These are the actual steps taken by scores of church people who wound up committing adultery and regretting it later. Some of these people sobbed deeply as they shared, hoping that their own pain and failure might save other marriages. This information comes to you at great expense.
This chapter doesn't have any preaching or analysis... that is left to you. Here we offer you cold word-for-word quotes. You and your Sunday School class can draw out the lessons. How did these lives get ruined? How does it start?
1. Sharing Common Interests.
"We just had so much in common, it was uncanny."
"She and I both enjoyed music, and we were attracted to each other."
"He was so spiritually-minded... I'd been looking for someone to share my spiritual struggles with."
"We both loved horses, and started riding together."
"We both shared a burden for the church and especially children's work."
"She was the first woman I'd ever met who liked the outdoors, even hunting and fishing -- I was fascinated!"
2. Mentally comparing with my mate.
"My husband wasn't interested much in spiritual things, but this man knew so much about the Bible."
"She was slim, attractive, and dressed sharp -- quite a difference from my wife who didn't take care of herself much at that time."
"She was so understanding and would listen to me and my hurts -- my wife was always so busy and rushed that we didn't have the time to talk.
"My husband just would never communicate -- he'd come home from work and just sit there watching TV. I finally gave up on him. Then this man came along who was worlds apart from my husband -- he was gentile, loved to talk, and would just share little things about his life with me."
3. Meeting emotional needs.
"He understood how I was feeling and offered me the empathy I was hungering for."
"She was there when I needed her."
"My ego was so starved for affirmation that I would have taken it from anyone -- I guess that's what started the whole thing."
"No one had ever really believed in me until he came along. He encouraged me, inspired me, and believed so deeply in what I could become."
"My wife was busy with the kids and not at all involved with my work. This girl admired me and treated me like I was really somebody. It felt so good."
4. Looking forward to being together.
"I used to dread going to work, but after we started our friendship, I would wake up thinking of how I would see him later that day... it seemed to make getting up easier."
"I would think of being with her the whole time I was driving to work."
"I found myself thinking of him as I got dressed each morning, wondering how he would like a certain outfit or perfume."
"I looked forward to choir practice every week because I knew he would be there."
"Every time I drove by her house I would think of her and how we'd see each other that Sunday."
5. Tinges of dishonesty with my mate.
"When my wife would ask if she was with the group I'd pretend I couldn't remember... right there I started building a wall between us."
"I would act like I was going to practice with our ensemble, but actually I was practicing a duet with him."
"Once my wife asked about her, but I denied everything, after all, we hadn't done anything wrong yet. Now I see that this was one of those exit points where I could have come clean and got off the road I was speeding down."
"Whenever we got together as couples I would act like I didn't care about him, and afterward I would even criticize him to my husband. I guess I was trying to hide my real feelings from my husband."
6. Flirting and teasing.
"I could tell from the way she looked at me. She would gaze directly into my eyes, then furtively glance down my body then back into my eyes again -- I knew then that she was interested in more than my friendship. But, I was so flattered by her interest that I couldn't escape."
"Then we started teasing each other, often with double-meaning kind of things. Sometimes we'd tease each other even when we were together as two couples. It seemed innocent enough at first, but more and more we knew it really did mean something to us."
"We would laugh and talk about how it seemed like we were "made for each other" so much. Then we'd tease each other about what kind of husband or wife the other one would have been if we'd married each other."
"He had those killer eyes. When he'd look at me in that "special way" I would just melt. It was hopeless fighting my urges -- he had me."
7. Talking about personal matters.
"We would talk about things -- not big things, just little things which he cared about, or I was worried about."
"We'd meet together for coffee before church and just talk together."
"I was having problems with my son and she seemed to understand the whole situation so much better than anyone else I talked with. I'd tell her about the most recent blow-up and she would understand so well. We just became really deep friends -- almost soul-mates. That's what's so weird about all this -- we never intended for it to go this far."
"I had lost my Dad just before we got to know each other and he had lost his mother a few years earlier. He seemed to understand exactly what I was going through and we would talk for hours about how each of us felt."
"I was so lonely since my husband died and hungry for someone to share life with. Then he began to call just because he cared. I loved hearing his caring voice at the other end of the line, even though I knew he was married."
"We spent so much time together at work that I swear she knew more about me than my wife ever did -- or even cared to know."
8. Minor yet arousing touch, squeeze, or hug.
"He never touched me for months. Then one night after working late, we were walking toward the door when he said 'You're so special, thanks for all you do..." then he turned and hugged me tenderly, just for a second. I loved how I felt for that moment so much that I began to replay it over and over again in my mind like a videotape. Now I know that I should have stopped it all right then. I never intended to ruin my family like this."
"She was always hanging around our house and was my wife's best friend. Often she would stay late to watch TV, even after my wife went to bed. She would sit beside me on the couch and I was drawn to her like the song says... like a moth to the flame."
"He would often pat me on the shoulder -- you know, in appreciation for a good job I'd done. But I knew it meant more than that."
"The first time she touched me was when we were doing registration together. We were sitting beside each other. I'd say something cute or funny and she would giggle, then under the table she'd squeeze the top of my leg with her hand. That was really exciting to me."
"Every time she shook hands with me at the door she seemed to linger, sort of holding my hand more than shaking it. No one else would notice, but I knew there was more to her touch than appeared to the eyes. She knew too."
9. Special notes or gifts.
"He would write these little encouraging notes and leave them in my desk, pocketbook, or taped to my computer. They didn't say anything which could be traced. If anyone found them they wouldn't suspect anything. But we both knew what was going on, we just didn't want to stop yet."
"I would sometimes call him and leave a short message on his answering machine. He would leave little notes in my Bible."
"He would buy me a little gift -- not that expensive, but it always showed he had taken extra thought to get exactly what I liked. Of course everyone else thought he was just being a good boss."
"She started leaving unsigned notes to me in my desk sharing her feelings for me. It scared me at first, because I thought someone would find one. But after a while I found myself looking forward to the next one, even though I knew the risk."
10. Inventing excuses to call or meet.
"I started figuring out ways I could drop off something at her house when her husband was gone. He and I knew each other and I would always return borrowed tools in the afternoon when I knew she'd be there alone."
"I would wait until the end of the workday then I'd call him just before closing time about something I'd made up as a 'business question' and we'd talk."
"The more entangled we got, the more I planned times where he and I could practice together. We started meeting more often."
"She started arranging her schedule so that her husband dropped her off at committee meetings. I would hang around and offer to take her home, acting with as much nonchalance as I could muster up."
11. Arranging secret meetings.
"By now we both were so far gone that we started meeting secretly at the mall parking lot. It know now how foolish this was, but I was driven by something other than good sense at that time."
"We started arranging to work evenings on the same nights, then we would leave early and meet each other in the dark parking lot."
"I started making sure he knew my travel schedule so we could attend the same conferences. We still weren't involved physically at that time, but there was such excitement and romance to it all... even the secrecy seemed to make it more exciting."
"She would sometimes call me just before lunch and we'd sneak through a drive-up together, and then spend the rest of my lunch hour talking quietly to each other."
12. Deceit and cover ups.
"Once we were meeting secretly I had to invent all kinds of stories about where I'd been to satisfy my wife. By now I had built a towering wall of dishonesty between us."
"Pretty soon my whole life was full of lies. I'd lie about where I was going, where I'd been, and who I'd been with. The more suspicious my husband got, the better liar I became. But he knew something was going on. It's hard to lie without people suspecting it."
"I joined several groups so that I would have an excuse to be away in the evenings."
"She would ask when I'd gotten off work. I'd simply lie about it, and she never knew what hit her. How can I ever regain her trust now?"
"We agreed that if anyone saw us driving around we would both tell the same story: that my car wouldn't start, he stopped to help, an we were going together to get a new fuse to replace the broken one he'd discovered."
"By now my whole life was a lie, so I began telling them regularly to cover up our little meetings."
13. Kissing and embracing.
"The whole thing seemed so exciting by now. I was such a fool. We were meeting secretly and both of us were fearful of being caught. But that only seemed to increase our common ground. When we'd meet, we would embrace as if we'd not been together for years -- like in the movies when someone comes home from the war."
"Once we started meeting secretly the end came fast. We kissed and hugged like two teenagers going parking for their first time."
"It just felt so good to be hugged and loved by somebody who really cared about me."
14. Petting and high indiscretion.
"At this point my glands took over. I forgot reason altogether and was willing to risk everything for more."
"It was like I was a teenager again -- going too far, then repenting and promising to do better; then just as quick I was hungrily seeking more sin."
"When my husband and I were dating we struggled with 'how far to go.' Well, here I was again struggling over the same issue. Friendship with this guy didn't seem so wrong. But now were we're going further than I ever intended. But, I felt curiously justified going exactly as far as I had with my husband when had been dating. In a way, I think some of my resentment against my husband's constant pressure on me started coming out. I'm not saying that it wasn't wrong. Just that I kind of felt justified."
"At about this time I began fooling myself into thinking I was heroic for not going "all the way." That's what I wanted to do. But by doing "everything but" I fooled myself into thinking I was successfully resisting temptation. What I didn't realize was that, not only was what I was doing wrong, but that eventually I would take the next step. It's just not possible to freeze a relationship -- you have to go ahead with it, or break it off totally."
15. Sexual intercourse.
"Soon I quit resisting and was swept into outright adultery."
"One thing led to another and finally we ended up in bed with each other."
"Though we never intended it to go that far, we eventually went all the way and had sex."
"One night we couldn't seem to stop ourselves (at least we didn't want to) so I completed my journey of unfaithfulness to my husband -- I had sex with this man."
Re: brought to you by Kimmy: Life after infidelity - 05/01/07 03:31 PM
Quote
ROMANTIC INFIDELITY
Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continuing living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate--someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own--is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your fife, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.
Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape.
People are most likely to get into these romantic affairs at the turning points of life: when their parents die or their children grow up; when they suffer health crises or are under pressure to give up an addiction; when they achieve an unexpected level of job success or job failure; or when their first child is born--any situation in which they must face a lot of reality and grow up. The better the marriage, the saner and more sensible the spouse, the more alienated the romantic is likely to feel. Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones.
Both genders seem equally capable of falling into the temporary insanity of romantic affairs, though women are more likely to reframe anything they do as having been done for love. Women in love are far more aware of what they are doing and what the dangers might be. Men in love can be extraordinarily incautious and willing to give up everything. Men in love lose their heads--at least for a while.
Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continuing living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate--someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own--is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your fife, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.
Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape.
People are most likely to get into these romantic affairs at the turning points of life: when their parents die or their children grow up; when they suffer health crises or are under pressure to give up an addiction; when they achieve an unexpected level of job success or job failure; or when their first child is born--any situation in which they must face a lot of reality and grow up. The better the marriage, the saner and more sensible the spouse, the more alienated the romantic is likely to feel. Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones.
Both genders seem equally capable of falling into the temporary insanity of romantic affairs, though women are more likely to reframe anything they do as having been done for love. Women in love are far more aware of what they are doing and what the dangers might be. Men in love can be extraordinarily incautious and willing to give up everything. Men in love lose their heads--at least for a while.
WOW..I hadn't read this in a while..
MY H DEFINITELY HAD A ROMANTIC AFFAIR..in ALL ASPECTS of this description.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
A plan for MEN - 05/01/07 03:39 PM
"In my opinion;
1. You are needy. She knows it.
2. She is working you on that basis for whatever it is she wants, likely money.
3. Women don't respect needy men very much.
4. Your kid needs you.
So, get a grip, be in charge of yourself and get on with our life.
Just my opinion.
Yes, kick her out, aka grow a pair. BS fog: I had it bad. I couldn't think I was so mixed up. Talk about scrambled brains. That was me. I had NOT found this place yet. I talked to a guy at the suicide hotline who got me straight.
The points I remember are:
1. Get your head on straight. Forget her, think of you and the kids. What is best for YOU and the kids. She isn't thinking of you, she is thinking of herself.
2. Figure out what YOU want. If it is her, tell her exactly what you want and do not compromise. She either gives you what you want, without exception and without holding back or kick her [censored] out.
3. Life will go on with or without her. But the kids need a healthy dad and a healthy mom. If she isn't going to get her head on straight, that isn't your problem it is her's and the kid's, so at least you can be there for them.
4. She screwed up, not you. You are under no obligation to repair her problem. She is trying to make her problem your problem, don't buy it.
Well, I thought about it for about ten minutes and asked a couple of clarifying questions. I realized that I had hocked my manhood and needed to go to the pawn store and get them back, right now. I hoisted them up and called my wife who was out "Shopping." I said: "Get it home, I have made up my mind what and where I am and what I am going to do."
She did, madder than all get out. That made no difference. I simply said: "Get rid of him or I am gone right now, and I will not come back." I said some other stuff that isn't important to your situation near as I can tell.
She got rid of him immediately. I gave her a set of instructions and boundaries. To this day she follows them without exception. I love her. She says she loves me and acts like it.
It doesn't always work. It did for me. Your mileage may vary. But your life will be screwed up as Hogan's goat until you take charge of it. So will your kid's."
1. You are needy. She knows it.
2. She is working you on that basis for whatever it is she wants, likely money.
3. Women don't respect needy men very much.
4. Your kid needs you.
So, get a grip, be in charge of yourself and get on with our life.
Just my opinion.
Yes, kick her out, aka grow a pair. BS fog: I had it bad. I couldn't think I was so mixed up. Talk about scrambled brains. That was me. I had NOT found this place yet. I talked to a guy at the suicide hotline who got me straight.
The points I remember are:
1. Get your head on straight. Forget her, think of you and the kids. What is best for YOU and the kids. She isn't thinking of you, she is thinking of herself.
2. Figure out what YOU want. If it is her, tell her exactly what you want and do not compromise. She either gives you what you want, without exception and without holding back or kick her [censored] out.
3. Life will go on with or without her. But the kids need a healthy dad and a healthy mom. If she isn't going to get her head on straight, that isn't your problem it is her's and the kid's, so at least you can be there for them.
4. She screwed up, not you. You are under no obligation to repair her problem. She is trying to make her problem your problem, don't buy it.
Well, I thought about it for about ten minutes and asked a couple of clarifying questions. I realized that I had hocked my manhood and needed to go to the pawn store and get them back, right now. I hoisted them up and called my wife who was out "Shopping." I said: "Get it home, I have made up my mind what and where I am and what I am going to do."
She did, madder than all get out. That made no difference. I simply said: "Get rid of him or I am gone right now, and I will not come back." I said some other stuff that isn't important to your situation near as I can tell.
She got rid of him immediately. I gave her a set of instructions and boundaries. To this day she follows them without exception. I love her. She says she loves me and acts like it.
It doesn't always work. It did for me. Your mileage may vary. But your life will be screwed up as Hogan's goat until you take charge of it. So will your kid's."
"Dear Daddy" from book :The Language Of Love - 05/01/07 03:41 PM
Dear Daddy,
It's late at night, and I'm sitting in the middle of my bed writing to you. I've wanted to talk with you so many times during the past few weeks. But there never seems to be any time when we're alone.
Dad, I realize you're dating someone else. And I know you and Mom may never get back together. That's terribly hard to accept - especially knowing that you may never come back home or be an "everyday" dad to me and Brian again. But at least I want you to know what's going on in our lives.
Don't think Mom asked me to write this. She didn't . She doesn't know I'm writing, and neither does Brian. I just want to share with you what I've been thinking.
Dad, I feel like our family has been riding in a nice car for a long time. You know, the kind you always liked to have as a company car. It's the kind that has every extra inside and not a scratch on the outside.
But over the years, the car has developed some problems. It's smoking a lot, the wheels wobble, and the seat covers are ripped. The car's been really hard to drive or ride in because of all the shaking and squeaking. But it's still a great automobile - or at least it could be. With a little work, I know it could run for years.
Since we got the car, Brian and I have been in the backseat while you and Mom have been up front. We feel really secure with you driving and Mom beside you. But last month, Mom was at the wheel.
It was nighttime, and we had just turned the corner near our house. Suddenly, we all looked up and saw another car, out of control, heading straight for us. Mom tried to swerve out of the way, but the other car still smashed into us. The impact sent us flying off the road and crashing into a lamppost.
The thing is, Dad, just before being hit, we could see that you were driving the other car. And we saw something else: Sitting next to you was another woman.
It was such a terrible accident that we were all rushed to the hospital emergency ward. But when we asked where you were, no one knew. We're still not really sure where you are or if you were hurt or if you need help.
Mom was really hurt. She was thrown into the steering wheel and broke several ribs. One of them punctured her lungs and almost pierced her heart.
When the car wrecked, the back door smashed into Brian. He was covered with cuts from the broken glass, and he shattered his arm, which is now in a cast. But that's not the worst. He's still in so much pain and shock that he doesn't want to talk or play with anyone.
As for me, I was thrown from the car. I was stuck out in the cold for a long time with my right leg broken. As I lay there, I couldn't move and didn't know what was wrong with Mom and Brian. I was hurting so much myself that I couldn't help them.
There have been so many times since that night when I wondered if any of us would make it. Even though we're getting a little better, we're all still in the hospital. The doctor's say I'll need a lot of therapy on my leg, and I know they can help me get better. But I wish it was you who was helping me, instead of them.
The pain is so bad, but what's even worse is that we all miss you so much. Every day we wait to see if you're going to visit us in the hospital, and every day you don't come. I know it's over. But my heart would explode with joy if somehow I could look up and see you walk into my room.
At night when the hospital is really quiet, they push Brian and me into Mom's room, and we talk about you. We talk about how much we loved driving with you and how we wish you were here with us now.
Are you alright? Are you hurting from the wreck? Do you need us like we need you? If you need me, I'm here and I love you.
Your daughter,
Kimberly
It's late at night, and I'm sitting in the middle of my bed writing to you. I've wanted to talk with you so many times during the past few weeks. But there never seems to be any time when we're alone.
Dad, I realize you're dating someone else. And I know you and Mom may never get back together. That's terribly hard to accept - especially knowing that you may never come back home or be an "everyday" dad to me and Brian again. But at least I want you to know what's going on in our lives.
Don't think Mom asked me to write this. She didn't . She doesn't know I'm writing, and neither does Brian. I just want to share with you what I've been thinking.
Dad, I feel like our family has been riding in a nice car for a long time. You know, the kind you always liked to have as a company car. It's the kind that has every extra inside and not a scratch on the outside.
But over the years, the car has developed some problems. It's smoking a lot, the wheels wobble, and the seat covers are ripped. The car's been really hard to drive or ride in because of all the shaking and squeaking. But it's still a great automobile - or at least it could be. With a little work, I know it could run for years.
Since we got the car, Brian and I have been in the backseat while you and Mom have been up front. We feel really secure with you driving and Mom beside you. But last month, Mom was at the wheel.
It was nighttime, and we had just turned the corner near our house. Suddenly, we all looked up and saw another car, out of control, heading straight for us. Mom tried to swerve out of the way, but the other car still smashed into us. The impact sent us flying off the road and crashing into a lamppost.
The thing is, Dad, just before being hit, we could see that you were driving the other car. And we saw something else: Sitting next to you was another woman.
It was such a terrible accident that we were all rushed to the hospital emergency ward. But when we asked where you were, no one knew. We're still not really sure where you are or if you were hurt or if you need help.
Mom was really hurt. She was thrown into the steering wheel and broke several ribs. One of them punctured her lungs and almost pierced her heart.
When the car wrecked, the back door smashed into Brian. He was covered with cuts from the broken glass, and he shattered his arm, which is now in a cast. But that's not the worst. He's still in so much pain and shock that he doesn't want to talk or play with anyone.
As for me, I was thrown from the car. I was stuck out in the cold for a long time with my right leg broken. As I lay there, I couldn't move and didn't know what was wrong with Mom and Brian. I was hurting so much myself that I couldn't help them.
There have been so many times since that night when I wondered if any of us would make it. Even though we're getting a little better, we're all still in the hospital. The doctor's say I'll need a lot of therapy on my leg, and I know they can help me get better. But I wish it was you who was helping me, instead of them.
The pain is so bad, but what's even worse is that we all miss you so much. Every day we wait to see if you're going to visit us in the hospital, and every day you don't come. I know it's over. But my heart would explode with joy if somehow I could look up and see you walk into my room.
At night when the hospital is really quiet, they push Brian and me into Mom's room, and we talk about you. We talk about how much we loved driving with you and how we wish you were here with us now.
Are you alright? Are you hurting from the wreck? Do you need us like we need you? If you need me, I'm here and I love you.
Your daughter,
Kimberly
Betrayed spouse ... it's the FEAR ... - 05/01/07 03:51 PM
It is the fear that paralyzes you, sends blood rushing through your veins, sours your stomach, and interupts your sleep. It is the fear that gives away your power, your hope, and your forgiveness. It is fear that robs you of the active self and traps you in the role of patronizing enabler who will take them back at ANY cost...even if the price is too high. It is fear that keeps you from confronting and exposing. And fear that prevents you from enforcing your boundaries and having compassion for yourself.
Fear of abandonment.
Fear of rejection.
Fear of reaction....yours, theirs.
Fear of future...the unknown.
Fear of destitution and want.
Fear of failure.
Fear of losing.
Fear of loss.
Fear of solitude.
Fear of settling.
Fear of change.
Fear of lack of change.
Fear
Fear
Infidelity creates FEAR....and fear is crippling. Research shows us what we already know in our hearts....when we are fearful....we are unable to fire up the parts of our brains that "process" information on a logical, rational, spirtual level and create solutions that increase the odds for success in crises. When we are fearful....we don't use our neocortex....but instead, it is our limpic system which lights up our MRIs....our animal brains wired for "fight or flight".
There is no HOPE in our animal brains....because our indentity, our souls, our compassion....don't reside there. You are only capable of conflict or escape when you are there....so you must find a quiet place to deal with your fears so that you can confront, expose, do all the things that overcoming infidelity entails....all the things that happiness entails. You must value yourself as well as protect yourself, without fear of losing your WS or enforcing boundaries.....because if you don't....all your fears will be realized anyway.
MB is not designed to trap you in a marriage where your feelings are crushed and disrespected or the vows of marriage are meaningless. It's designed to help you overcome fear and give you hope that marriages CAN recover from infidelity....but you must be brave and be willing to risk losing your WS in order to regain trust, fidelity, security.
You must be willing to see beyond your pain and take logical and systematic steps to undermine the affair and increase the stability and security of your marriage. That takes courage above pain. It takes the peacefulness of knowing you are strong enough to lose a self indulgent and unrepentant spouse or recover with a flawed, but motivated one.
Don't let your fear take back a spouse who isn't ready to do the hard work recovery after infidelity entails. It is an invitation for misery.
If you don't believe you CAN survive without your WS....you cannot do what you must do to ensure success.
Stop being fearful of their threats...they are just excuses to leave or be selfish.
Stop being fearful of their reactions....their reactions arise from their guilt...not your boundaries.
Stop being fearful of taking a stand....it's the only way to gain respect or trust.
Stop being fearful of being alone.....until you can stand on your own and risk losing them, you will NEVER know if they remain with you by choice. And you will never know if you want them or you NEED them.
And if you need them....even if they return....you are in trouble.
Fear of abandonment.
Fear of rejection.
Fear of reaction....yours, theirs.
Fear of future...the unknown.
Fear of destitution and want.
Fear of failure.
Fear of losing.
Fear of loss.
Fear of solitude.
Fear of settling.
Fear of change.
Fear of lack of change.
Fear
Fear
Infidelity creates FEAR....and fear is crippling. Research shows us what we already know in our hearts....when we are fearful....we are unable to fire up the parts of our brains that "process" information on a logical, rational, spirtual level and create solutions that increase the odds for success in crises. When we are fearful....we don't use our neocortex....but instead, it is our limpic system which lights up our MRIs....our animal brains wired for "fight or flight".
There is no HOPE in our animal brains....because our indentity, our souls, our compassion....don't reside there. You are only capable of conflict or escape when you are there....so you must find a quiet place to deal with your fears so that you can confront, expose, do all the things that overcoming infidelity entails....all the things that happiness entails. You must value yourself as well as protect yourself, without fear of losing your WS or enforcing boundaries.....because if you don't....all your fears will be realized anyway.
MB is not designed to trap you in a marriage where your feelings are crushed and disrespected or the vows of marriage are meaningless. It's designed to help you overcome fear and give you hope that marriages CAN recover from infidelity....but you must be brave and be willing to risk losing your WS in order to regain trust, fidelity, security.
You must be willing to see beyond your pain and take logical and systematic steps to undermine the affair and increase the stability and security of your marriage. That takes courage above pain. It takes the peacefulness of knowing you are strong enough to lose a self indulgent and unrepentant spouse or recover with a flawed, but motivated one.
Don't let your fear take back a spouse who isn't ready to do the hard work recovery after infidelity entails. It is an invitation for misery.
If you don't believe you CAN survive without your WS....you cannot do what you must do to ensure success.
Stop being fearful of their threats...they are just excuses to leave or be selfish.
Stop being fearful of their reactions....their reactions arise from their guilt...not your boundaries.
Stop being fearful of taking a stand....it's the only way to gain respect or trust.
Stop being fearful of being alone.....until you can stand on your own and risk losing them, you will NEVER know if they remain with you by choice. And you will never know if you want them or you NEED them.
And if you need them....even if they return....you are in trouble.
RESPECT for SELF .... not self-esteem - 05/01/07 04:34 PM
I think this phrase has just become a hockey-puck ... thrown out on the ice and hit about ....
he has low self esteem so he had an affair
she has low self esteem so she yells at her kids
he has low self esteem and that is why he hits his wife
she has low self esteem and that is why she dresses like a hooker
he has low self esteem and that is why he gets bad grades
STOP THE INSANITY
I think using the "low-self-esteem" defense for lousy choices .... is just too easy
try a different word
try
RESPECT
self RESPECT requires a reverence for doing what is ~right~
for doing what is difficult
for bringing HONOR to our own world
for meeting our obligations
self esteem gets all bound up with feelings ....
RESPECT is the key
not
"self esteem" .... the way it is commonly used today
MY opinion is free .... you get what you pay for
I don't give a fiddle for someone seeking "self esteem" when they clearly don't respect what is noble in themselves or others....
Pep
he has low self esteem so he had an affair
she has low self esteem so she yells at her kids
he has low self esteem and that is why he hits his wife
she has low self esteem and that is why she dresses like a hooker
he has low self esteem and that is why he gets bad grades
STOP THE INSANITY
I think using the "low-self-esteem" defense for lousy choices .... is just too easy
try a different word
try
RESPECT
self RESPECT requires a reverence for doing what is ~right~
for doing what is difficult
for bringing HONOR to our own world
for meeting our obligations
self esteem gets all bound up with feelings ....
RESPECT is the key
not
"self esteem" .... the way it is commonly used today
MY opinion is free .... you get what you pay for
I don't give a fiddle for someone seeking "self esteem" when they clearly don't respect what is noble in themselves or others....
Pep
UVA's war room ... for betrayed husband - 05/01/07 04:37 PM
THIS post is lifted in it's entirety from a thread by GoodFather. UVA's message to GoodFather is so awesome I decided it needed to be more easily accesable for future reference.... so here it is ... enjoy and learn and be inspired to MAN UP and go to WAR !
Pep
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I want to discuss some preliminary issues. First, let me say that you are very lucky to have so many good people taking an interest in your sitch (i.e. your story) and giving their advice. You don't know them yet, because you are new on this site, but many of them are the best of the best on this site.
Second, like I told you earlier, I prefer not to hold any punches when I speak, and what I say below may be hard to swallow, but you need to hear the truth so that you may act in a way that is most conducive to the achievement of your goals.
Thus, what I say is not for the weak-hearted. Where I seem harsh, I do not mean to offend, it is to WAKE YOU UP from the big slumber that you seem to be in. I, like the others, have your best interest at heart. In the end, you will be ok and remember that you are stronger than you think you are, as will be discussed below.
Third, what follows will be very long, as I gave a lot of thought of what I wanted to say to you and tried to come up with a fairly comprehensive strategy that you may want to put into action. It will be information overload and you won't get many of it right away. But use it as a guideline and refer to it on an ongoing basis in addition to the advices you are getting from others on your thread. In time it will all make sense.
So break what follows up in parts and come back to it from time to time.
What I say here is also more or less what the others have been telling you and will be telling you. In short, it is the MB principles with a big dose of reality check.
I think analytically, so I will write in an outline form in the hope of being as clear as I can.
One question I asked myself yesterday as I was thinking about your situation is why am I so concerned with your sitch? There are two reasons, I believe. One your wife's actions are so brazen and she seems so cold-hearted towards you "although you may not see this" that I got very upset with her. She reminds of the FWW (WW?) of Brokenbird, another poster here, with her callousness. The second reason is your WW is a fast mover. She is planning the demise of your M as we speak and has already seen a lawyer to that end. Thus, time becomes a very important factor in your sitch even though you may not realize it yet. You need a strategy and you need one NOW. So here we go.
(To others, please add, modify, and suggest deletions as you see fit with what I say. The main goal here is to see that GF gets the best possible help he can get.)
A. ACCEPT REALITY for what it really is.
You wife is in a full blown affair and you are, sorry to say, being played for a fool. All WSs at some point or another play their BSs for a fool. So you are not alone.
What am I talking about here? Well, a woman does not go cross country to meet a guy (several times) and not screw him. It is ridiculous to think otherwise. Moreover, she is going to meet him in Vegas (VEGAS!), sleep in the SAME ROOM with him, and you somehow think that nothing sexual will happen between them. Come on! It should be clear from these facts alone what has been going on and what will be going on. Furthermore, she already wants to introduce your DD to OM, trying to begin the process of replacing you with OM to DD.
OM is coming to town to have sex with your WW some more and you were not sure until recently whether to meet his sorry [censored], pretending with your WW that he and your WW were just friends. It makes no sense GF.
To put icing on the cake, your WW has already seen a lawyer, positioning herself to win custody of DD, and you still could not see that she plans on kicking you the curve and replacing you with OM.
I will say more on exposure below, but for now I think you need to expose to your parents for two reasons. One, you will need all the emotional support you can get and they can be a big source of that. Second, you obviously need some outside perspective from all of this, and I think your parents can clearly point out to you what is really going on even though you are refusing to believe your own eyes.
To recap, here is what we know and you need to accept,
1. Your WW has slept with OM.
2. WW and OM plan to screw some more next weekend in Vegas
3. WW is trying to manipulate you into submission and silence.
4. WW plans on divorcing you.
5. WW wants full or primary custody of DD, as evidenced by her wanting to change the schedule you have with DD. More on that later.
6. WW wants to replace you with OM as the head of the family.
a. She is already trying to introduce DD to him.
7. They are playing you for a fool, as evidenced by the brazenness of their actions and expecting you believe they are just friends. They are sick, and it is your job to bring some reality check into their fantasy.
This we will work on.
So accepting reality is one of the first steps you need to take in order to give yourself a chance to save your M, to protect your DD and yourself.
B. You need to MAN UP
Since you are a military man, you understand the concept of war. This crap you are going through is war. It is a war to save your M, to protect your DD, and to maintain your sanity. Even though you may feel fear, you must act decisively, lest you and your DD become the latest casualties of infidelity.
The weak may inherit the earth, but they do not win custody, especially if they are males. You need to be strong to fight for your DD. Further, as some has suggested, women do not like men they perceive as weak. You will not win your WW back by catapulting to her every demand. Since, right now she does not have your best interest in mind, she is sure to exploit whatever weakness you exhibit. Thus, you are going to have to start standing up for yourself. It does not mean that you have to be rude, which is totally contrary to Plan A, but you need to stop being a doormat. A delicate balance, I know; a necessary one, nonetheless. You seem to be improving on that front. And I am proud of you!
C. SNOOP
We know that there is an A. What you need now is proof of the A. The proof in my opinion is neither for you nor for your wife, since both of you know (and should know in your case) of the A.
I see no value in trying to convince a WS that they are in A. If they are in A, they know they are in A. Trying to convince them that they are in the A is a waste of time.
Now your WW will try to convince you that she is not in an A, but if you know that your WW is in an A (as should be the case here), it is also a waste of time to argue with her about the existence of her A. When you have the proof in hand you can just show it her if you wish provided this does not jeopardize your source or legal case but I don't think that is necessary. You can just tell her that you know she is in an A and she can do whatever she wants with this information, i.e., the knowledge that you know what is going on.
Don't let her trick you into a fight on this. It is a waste of time and emotionally draining.
There are two other reasons, however, why I believe it is imperative to get proof of the A.
One, you need proof for your legal case if your situation proceeds that route. Merely saying that you WW is having an A will not be enough. Since your WW is going to lie and say otherwise, you will need proof that can stand in court. You don't want this issue to be just a he-says/she-says scenario in court. Note that even if the divorce laws in your state say that infidelity is irrelevant, infidelity may nonetheless be a factor in deciding who gets custody of your DD. Moreover, since the judge is human, and even if the law says one thing, human nature will force him or her to take your WW's infidelity into consideration when he or she deliberates on your case.
A second reason to snoop is to establish your credibility to those you expose to. Your parents will naturally believe you, so this is not for them. But her parents, and friends, others who can be influential with her, will be more apt to come to your aid if you can back up claims to them. A WS is a big time liar. Therefore, your WW is a big time liar right now. Just as she is lying to you now, she will be lying to those you expose to. If you have irrefutable proof in hand, she will have no where to hide and those you expose will have to come to terms with the reality of the situation.
For these two reasons, I think it's important to snoop your butt off on this.
How do you snoop? Well as others said, get telephone recording devices, car or personal tracking devices, computer keyloggers and hire a PI. Hiring a PI would especially be good for the trip to Vegas. That would really solidify your case in court for custody, should it come to that, and open the exposure targets eyes to what your wife has really been up to. I know that hiring a PI may seem very expensive to you right now, but a divorce and losing custody of your DD will be much more expensive than that, this I promise you.
Others are better expert on how to go about snooping, so I will defer to them on that. But what is clear, is that you need to do it.
D. Plan A: Exposure
1. Make a list of exposure targets and proceed to expose to them. They should be your parents, her parents, her siblings, friends of the M that can have influence on your WW.
Later on, if that does not work, you can expose to the church you guys go to if you go to one or other people that can make a difference in your sitch.
2. When you expose be sure to tell the people that you expose to that your goal is to save your M and that you need their help in reaching that goal.
3. Do not threaten your WW that you are going to expose. Just do it. Do not tell her your plan here. In fact, do not tell her any of your plans in trying to save your M and protecting yourself and your DD. Just as you would not tell an enemy your plan in a war, you don't want to tell your WW your plan in this battle. Unfortunately, all WSs are the enemies of marriages.
4. Be ready for a big backlash when you expose. Your WW will say that your M is over, that this is the last straw, blah blah blah. Don't worry, you will survive it! But don't argue with her on this; just keep telling her that you will do whatever it takes to protect your M. Keep repeating this over and over as she brings it up.
E. See a Lawyer ASAP
Since you have already plan to do this, this is somewhat a moot plan. But keep the following in mind
1. Be sure that your lawyer tells you what your rights are, both for divorce and custody purposes.
2. With respect to custody, do not change your schedule with DD to accommodate your WW. The court will most likely give custody to the parent who takes care of DD and is there for her the most. As of now, that seems to be you. It is clear that your WW's lawyer has told her that she needs to change the nature of the relationship that you have with DD, so WW can better position herself for custody at your expense. Do not accommodate her at all in this end. Continue to be the primary caretaker of DD.
Further, be sure to document all your interactions with DD and WW from now one. Again, in court your mere words will not be sufficient. If you document everything, however, the court will give me more credence to your contentions than your WW's. Henceforth, not only do you write down everything you do for DD and everything your WW does not do for her, keep every receipt of the things that you do for DD.
Also, when you document what is going on, make sure to write with a pen. A typed document will be given less credence in court (because you could have just written it just before court day). So get to work on this.
3. Don't discuss divorce with your WW. You do M and your lawyer does divorce. If she wants to discuss divorce refer her to your lawyer. Be a broken record on this too. Do not let her bait you into divorce talk. As Dazed said, she will claim that she will do this and that to you if you don't give in to her. Don't take her seriously or listen to her nonsense on this. You have much more legal rights than she knows or wants to acknowledge. Thus, on the legal front, listen to your attorney, not your selfish, deluded, fogged-out WW.
4. Put your finances in order, and ask your parents to help you with upcoming financial difficulties that you will face because of this.
F. Schedule an appointment with the Harleys
You seem to ahead on this. So enough said.
G. Plan A: Being the Best You Can Be.
1. Be as nice as possible to your WW without condoning the A. Do not be a doormat! Many confuse Plan A with being a doormat, and I vehemently disagree with this. Set up your boundaries without gratuitously being mean to her.
I believe being the best you can be will encompasses you treating her well. You see if you are being the best person you can be, you will strive to be the best husband, the best father, and being the best in whatever other roles your life entails. In being the best possible husband you can be, you would want to treat your wife well and meet her needs. Thus, you would try to find out what her needs are and try to meet them. You would be polite with her whenever you're given the chance. To be sure, as a WS, your WW will rebuff many of your kind overtures, but that should not deter you in trying to be a great husband. Similar considerations apply to your roles in the other areas of your life.
But please do not confuse this with letting your WW walk all over you. A BS should never have to grovel to a selfish, unethical, irrational WS. Be polite, kind and loving whenever given the chance, but be firm and strong with respect to your boundaries.
In short, determine your shortfalls as an individual in all of the roles you play, and try to rectify them.
H. Get Full STDs Testing
Many on this site want to bypass this step, but I think for your health, your peace of mind, and the well-being of your DD, you need to do it. STDs are alive and well in this country even though almost everyone, including me, wants to pretend otherwise. To ignore it is a big mistake in my opinion.
Most WSs have unprotected sex with the OPs. Thus, the BSs, when they sleep with their WSs, expose themselves to all the potential STDs that the OPs may have had.
We have some cases here where the BS fell victim to an STD courtesy of his or her beloved WS. This is not a game, and as unsavory as it is to think about it, you must protect yourself.
In addition, before you have unprotected sex with your WW in the future, be sure she gets herself tested first. Since she slept with OM, you should require this as a condition for unprotected sex with her. If you want to pretend that the possibility of STD does not exist in your case, feel free to do so. You can deny this all you want, but an STD, if any, will not deny you.
I. Pray to God and ask Him to help you with this.
Although God helps those who help themselves, this is the most important step, in my opinion. He is greater than all of us and greater than all of this. It will be hard, but slowly and surely you should learn to put this, with everything every thing else, in His hands.
J. Some General Points
1. Do Not Move Out no matter what.
2. If WW wants to leave, she goes by herself. DD stays at home with you, where she belongs.
3. Ask WW to stop talking to OM in your house. She will get mad and what not, but continue to make it uncomfortable for them to keep disrespecting you in your own house.
4. Ask OM to leave your WW alone, so that there will no doubt about how you feel about their A. Don't expect much from this. It will be more to put OM on notice of your resolve to fight for your M.
a. If you can afford it, do like Bob Pure did and find out every thing you can out about OM. Find about his weak spots, and we can try to see where we can exploit them.
5. I think this bears repeating, do not grovel and beg your WW to stay with you. One, since you did not do anything wrong, you do not deserve to put yourself in that position. Second, a woman wants a man that they can respect. They won't respect or be attracted to a groveling man. So even if your reflexes are to beg, stop yourself from doing said action.
6. Do not try to reason with your WW while she is a WW. As they are fond of saying here, WS are abducted by aliens. They cannot reason, and all they want is their next affair fix. You would be wasting your time if you think you can make your WW see the logic of your position. Just let her know your conclusions if need be and move on. (Do this in a non-DJ way though).
In the same vein, do not try to make sense of every utterance that comes out of your WW's mouth. Again, you will be wasting a lot of time trying to follow the logic or reason of your WW's statements. She is confused and thus so will be her words.
7. Unless it obvious, do not believe anything your WW tells you right now. WSs are pathological liars. As I have heard here, believe nothing a WS tells you, and only half of what you see. Also keep in mind that your WW does not have your best interest at heart at the moment; she is h*ll bent on destroying your M. Hence, as a rational person, you cannot rely on what she tells you.
8. Be acutely aware that what is going on in your M right now is NOT YOUR FAULT. It is easy to believe that your shortcomings in the M are the reasons that your wife cheated, especially when your WW rewrites the history between you two and blames you for everything. You may not have been the perfect husband, but you did not make her have an affair. I suspect your WW was probably not the perfect wife either, but yet you did not go outside of your M to fix your marriage problems.
Her A is her personal CHOICE. People are free to make their own decisions. So repeat after me, IT IS NOT MY FAULT THAT MY WIFE IS IN AN AFFAIR; IT IS HER CHOICE!
9. Again, do not discuss your plans with your WW.
10. Even though it may not seem like it, your M is very salvageable.
Given that your MIL seems to be a morally strong person and the fact that OM leaves far from you, you have a good chance of saving your M. After you expose and when she sees that OM cannot come to her rescue, I believe reality will slowly sank in her foggy brain as to the gravity of her situation. Nothing wakes a WS up like good-old consequences. I have high hope for you.
I thought of recapping what I said here, but I am very tired and will leave it as is. These are my thoughts on your situation. I come in peace and love even though I may seem harsh in some areas.
God Bless.
Pep
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I want to discuss some preliminary issues. First, let me say that you are very lucky to have so many good people taking an interest in your sitch (i.e. your story) and giving their advice. You don't know them yet, because you are new on this site, but many of them are the best of the best on this site.
Second, like I told you earlier, I prefer not to hold any punches when I speak, and what I say below may be hard to swallow, but you need to hear the truth so that you may act in a way that is most conducive to the achievement of your goals.
Thus, what I say is not for the weak-hearted. Where I seem harsh, I do not mean to offend, it is to WAKE YOU UP from the big slumber that you seem to be in. I, like the others, have your best interest at heart. In the end, you will be ok and remember that you are stronger than you think you are, as will be discussed below.
Third, what follows will be very long, as I gave a lot of thought of what I wanted to say to you and tried to come up with a fairly comprehensive strategy that you may want to put into action. It will be information overload and you won't get many of it right away. But use it as a guideline and refer to it on an ongoing basis in addition to the advices you are getting from others on your thread. In time it will all make sense.
So break what follows up in parts and come back to it from time to time.
What I say here is also more or less what the others have been telling you and will be telling you. In short, it is the MB principles with a big dose of reality check.
I think analytically, so I will write in an outline form in the hope of being as clear as I can.
One question I asked myself yesterday as I was thinking about your situation is why am I so concerned with your sitch? There are two reasons, I believe. One your wife's actions are so brazen and she seems so cold-hearted towards you "although you may not see this" that I got very upset with her. She reminds of the FWW (WW?) of Brokenbird, another poster here, with her callousness. The second reason is your WW is a fast mover. She is planning the demise of your M as we speak and has already seen a lawyer to that end. Thus, time becomes a very important factor in your sitch even though you may not realize it yet. You need a strategy and you need one NOW. So here we go.
(To others, please add, modify, and suggest deletions as you see fit with what I say. The main goal here is to see that GF gets the best possible help he can get.)
A. ACCEPT REALITY for what it really is.
You wife is in a full blown affair and you are, sorry to say, being played for a fool. All WSs at some point or another play their BSs for a fool. So you are not alone.
What am I talking about here? Well, a woman does not go cross country to meet a guy (several times) and not screw him. It is ridiculous to think otherwise. Moreover, she is going to meet him in Vegas (VEGAS!), sleep in the SAME ROOM with him, and you somehow think that nothing sexual will happen between them. Come on! It should be clear from these facts alone what has been going on and what will be going on. Furthermore, she already wants to introduce your DD to OM, trying to begin the process of replacing you with OM to DD.
OM is coming to town to have sex with your WW some more and you were not sure until recently whether to meet his sorry [censored], pretending with your WW that he and your WW were just friends. It makes no sense GF.
To put icing on the cake, your WW has already seen a lawyer, positioning herself to win custody of DD, and you still could not see that she plans on kicking you the curve and replacing you with OM.
I will say more on exposure below, but for now I think you need to expose to your parents for two reasons. One, you will need all the emotional support you can get and they can be a big source of that. Second, you obviously need some outside perspective from all of this, and I think your parents can clearly point out to you what is really going on even though you are refusing to believe your own eyes.
To recap, here is what we know and you need to accept,
1. Your WW has slept with OM.
2. WW and OM plan to screw some more next weekend in Vegas
3. WW is trying to manipulate you into submission and silence.
4. WW plans on divorcing you.
5. WW wants full or primary custody of DD, as evidenced by her wanting to change the schedule you have with DD. More on that later.
6. WW wants to replace you with OM as the head of the family.
a. She is already trying to introduce DD to him.
7. They are playing you for a fool, as evidenced by the brazenness of their actions and expecting you believe they are just friends. They are sick, and it is your job to bring some reality check into their fantasy.
This we will work on.
So accepting reality is one of the first steps you need to take in order to give yourself a chance to save your M, to protect your DD and yourself.
B. You need to MAN UP
Since you are a military man, you understand the concept of war. This crap you are going through is war. It is a war to save your M, to protect your DD, and to maintain your sanity. Even though you may feel fear, you must act decisively, lest you and your DD become the latest casualties of infidelity.
The weak may inherit the earth, but they do not win custody, especially if they are males. You need to be strong to fight for your DD. Further, as some has suggested, women do not like men they perceive as weak. You will not win your WW back by catapulting to her every demand. Since, right now she does not have your best interest in mind, she is sure to exploit whatever weakness you exhibit. Thus, you are going to have to start standing up for yourself. It does not mean that you have to be rude, which is totally contrary to Plan A, but you need to stop being a doormat. A delicate balance, I know; a necessary one, nonetheless. You seem to be improving on that front. And I am proud of you!
C. SNOOP
We know that there is an A. What you need now is proof of the A. The proof in my opinion is neither for you nor for your wife, since both of you know (and should know in your case) of the A.
I see no value in trying to convince a WS that they are in A. If they are in A, they know they are in A. Trying to convince them that they are in the A is a waste of time.
Now your WW will try to convince you that she is not in an A, but if you know that your WW is in an A (as should be the case here), it is also a waste of time to argue with her about the existence of her A. When you have the proof in hand you can just show it her if you wish provided this does not jeopardize your source or legal case but I don't think that is necessary. You can just tell her that you know she is in an A and she can do whatever she wants with this information, i.e., the knowledge that you know what is going on.
Don't let her trick you into a fight on this. It is a waste of time and emotionally draining.
There are two other reasons, however, why I believe it is imperative to get proof of the A.
One, you need proof for your legal case if your situation proceeds that route. Merely saying that you WW is having an A will not be enough. Since your WW is going to lie and say otherwise, you will need proof that can stand in court. You don't want this issue to be just a he-says/she-says scenario in court. Note that even if the divorce laws in your state say that infidelity is irrelevant, infidelity may nonetheless be a factor in deciding who gets custody of your DD. Moreover, since the judge is human, and even if the law says one thing, human nature will force him or her to take your WW's infidelity into consideration when he or she deliberates on your case.
A second reason to snoop is to establish your credibility to those you expose to. Your parents will naturally believe you, so this is not for them. But her parents, and friends, others who can be influential with her, will be more apt to come to your aid if you can back up claims to them. A WS is a big time liar. Therefore, your WW is a big time liar right now. Just as she is lying to you now, she will be lying to those you expose to. If you have irrefutable proof in hand, she will have no where to hide and those you expose will have to come to terms with the reality of the situation.
For these two reasons, I think it's important to snoop your butt off on this.
How do you snoop? Well as others said, get telephone recording devices, car or personal tracking devices, computer keyloggers and hire a PI. Hiring a PI would especially be good for the trip to Vegas. That would really solidify your case in court for custody, should it come to that, and open the exposure targets eyes to what your wife has really been up to. I know that hiring a PI may seem very expensive to you right now, but a divorce and losing custody of your DD will be much more expensive than that, this I promise you.
Others are better expert on how to go about snooping, so I will defer to them on that. But what is clear, is that you need to do it.
D. Plan A: Exposure
1. Make a list of exposure targets and proceed to expose to them. They should be your parents, her parents, her siblings, friends of the M that can have influence on your WW.
Later on, if that does not work, you can expose to the church you guys go to if you go to one or other people that can make a difference in your sitch.
2. When you expose be sure to tell the people that you expose to that your goal is to save your M and that you need their help in reaching that goal.
3. Do not threaten your WW that you are going to expose. Just do it. Do not tell her your plan here. In fact, do not tell her any of your plans in trying to save your M and protecting yourself and your DD. Just as you would not tell an enemy your plan in a war, you don't want to tell your WW your plan in this battle. Unfortunately, all WSs are the enemies of marriages.
4. Be ready for a big backlash when you expose. Your WW will say that your M is over, that this is the last straw, blah blah blah. Don't worry, you will survive it! But don't argue with her on this; just keep telling her that you will do whatever it takes to protect your M. Keep repeating this over and over as she brings it up.
E. See a Lawyer ASAP
Since you have already plan to do this, this is somewhat a moot plan. But keep the following in mind
1. Be sure that your lawyer tells you what your rights are, both for divorce and custody purposes.
2. With respect to custody, do not change your schedule with DD to accommodate your WW. The court will most likely give custody to the parent who takes care of DD and is there for her the most. As of now, that seems to be you. It is clear that your WW's lawyer has told her that she needs to change the nature of the relationship that you have with DD, so WW can better position herself for custody at your expense. Do not accommodate her at all in this end. Continue to be the primary caretaker of DD.
Further, be sure to document all your interactions with DD and WW from now one. Again, in court your mere words will not be sufficient. If you document everything, however, the court will give me more credence to your contentions than your WW's. Henceforth, not only do you write down everything you do for DD and everything your WW does not do for her, keep every receipt of the things that you do for DD.
Also, when you document what is going on, make sure to write with a pen. A typed document will be given less credence in court (because you could have just written it just before court day). So get to work on this.
3. Don't discuss divorce with your WW. You do M and your lawyer does divorce. If she wants to discuss divorce refer her to your lawyer. Be a broken record on this too. Do not let her bait you into divorce talk. As Dazed said, she will claim that she will do this and that to you if you don't give in to her. Don't take her seriously or listen to her nonsense on this. You have much more legal rights than she knows or wants to acknowledge. Thus, on the legal front, listen to your attorney, not your selfish, deluded, fogged-out WW.
4. Put your finances in order, and ask your parents to help you with upcoming financial difficulties that you will face because of this.
F. Schedule an appointment with the Harleys
You seem to ahead on this. So enough said.
G. Plan A: Being the Best You Can Be.
1. Be as nice as possible to your WW without condoning the A. Do not be a doormat! Many confuse Plan A with being a doormat, and I vehemently disagree with this. Set up your boundaries without gratuitously being mean to her.
I believe being the best you can be will encompasses you treating her well. You see if you are being the best person you can be, you will strive to be the best husband, the best father, and being the best in whatever other roles your life entails. In being the best possible husband you can be, you would want to treat your wife well and meet her needs. Thus, you would try to find out what her needs are and try to meet them. You would be polite with her whenever you're given the chance. To be sure, as a WS, your WW will rebuff many of your kind overtures, but that should not deter you in trying to be a great husband. Similar considerations apply to your roles in the other areas of your life.
But please do not confuse this with letting your WW walk all over you. A BS should never have to grovel to a selfish, unethical, irrational WS. Be polite, kind and loving whenever given the chance, but be firm and strong with respect to your boundaries.
In short, determine your shortfalls as an individual in all of the roles you play, and try to rectify them.
H. Get Full STDs Testing
Many on this site want to bypass this step, but I think for your health, your peace of mind, and the well-being of your DD, you need to do it. STDs are alive and well in this country even though almost everyone, including me, wants to pretend otherwise. To ignore it is a big mistake in my opinion.
Most WSs have unprotected sex with the OPs. Thus, the BSs, when they sleep with their WSs, expose themselves to all the potential STDs that the OPs may have had.
We have some cases here where the BS fell victim to an STD courtesy of his or her beloved WS. This is not a game, and as unsavory as it is to think about it, you must protect yourself.
In addition, before you have unprotected sex with your WW in the future, be sure she gets herself tested first. Since she slept with OM, you should require this as a condition for unprotected sex with her. If you want to pretend that the possibility of STD does not exist in your case, feel free to do so. You can deny this all you want, but an STD, if any, will not deny you.
I. Pray to God and ask Him to help you with this.
Although God helps those who help themselves, this is the most important step, in my opinion. He is greater than all of us and greater than all of this. It will be hard, but slowly and surely you should learn to put this, with everything every thing else, in His hands.
J. Some General Points
1. Do Not Move Out no matter what.
2. If WW wants to leave, she goes by herself. DD stays at home with you, where she belongs.
3. Ask WW to stop talking to OM in your house. She will get mad and what not, but continue to make it uncomfortable for them to keep disrespecting you in your own house.
4. Ask OM to leave your WW alone, so that there will no doubt about how you feel about their A. Don't expect much from this. It will be more to put OM on notice of your resolve to fight for your M.
a. If you can afford it, do like Bob Pure did and find out every thing you can out about OM. Find about his weak spots, and we can try to see where we can exploit them.
5. I think this bears repeating, do not grovel and beg your WW to stay with you. One, since you did not do anything wrong, you do not deserve to put yourself in that position. Second, a woman wants a man that they can respect. They won't respect or be attracted to a groveling man. So even if your reflexes are to beg, stop yourself from doing said action.
6. Do not try to reason with your WW while she is a WW. As they are fond of saying here, WS are abducted by aliens. They cannot reason, and all they want is their next affair fix. You would be wasting your time if you think you can make your WW see the logic of your position. Just let her know your conclusions if need be and move on. (Do this in a non-DJ way though).
In the same vein, do not try to make sense of every utterance that comes out of your WW's mouth. Again, you will be wasting a lot of time trying to follow the logic or reason of your WW's statements. She is confused and thus so will be her words.
7. Unless it obvious, do not believe anything your WW tells you right now. WSs are pathological liars. As I have heard here, believe nothing a WS tells you, and only half of what you see. Also keep in mind that your WW does not have your best interest at heart at the moment; she is h*ll bent on destroying your M. Hence, as a rational person, you cannot rely on what she tells you.
8. Be acutely aware that what is going on in your M right now is NOT YOUR FAULT. It is easy to believe that your shortcomings in the M are the reasons that your wife cheated, especially when your WW rewrites the history between you two and blames you for everything. You may not have been the perfect husband, but you did not make her have an affair. I suspect your WW was probably not the perfect wife either, but yet you did not go outside of your M to fix your marriage problems.
Her A is her personal CHOICE. People are free to make their own decisions. So repeat after me, IT IS NOT MY FAULT THAT MY WIFE IS IN AN AFFAIR; IT IS HER CHOICE!
9. Again, do not discuss your plans with your WW.
10. Even though it may not seem like it, your M is very salvageable.
Given that your MIL seems to be a morally strong person and the fact that OM leaves far from you, you have a good chance of saving your M. After you expose and when she sees that OM cannot come to her rescue, I believe reality will slowly sank in her foggy brain as to the gravity of her situation. Nothing wakes a WS up like good-old consequences. I have high hope for you.
I thought of recapping what I said here, but I am very tired and will leave it as is. These are my thoughts on your situation. I come in peace and love even though I may seem harsh in some areas.
God Bless.
TOW ... you're "special" - 05/01/07 04:40 PM
He'll be different with you, you're special.
Author Unknown
You two have a "connection," a rapport that he didn't have with his wife. You have more things in common, similar personalities. He's pointed out all the ways that you two are so alike - it's just uncanny. You are so lucky to have met him at this point in your life. He says that he really appreciates you for who you are - and he's the first person to really do that, isn't he? Sure, he said the same things to *her* when he got together with her (and then grew to hate so many things about her), but it's different with you. He couldn't possibly be operating from scripts anymore. And it's so nice to finally have someone YOU can lean on, isn't it? It's hard being on your own, managing a household, and doing it all yourself. All of a sudden, here's this guy offering to help in ways that no one ever did. Knowing all the things you have been longing for and wanting in a partner. He couldn't possibly be hooking into your heart-felt desires and hurt places and pretending to be the answer, because he knows that's where you are vulnerable. He couldn't be pretending to like the things you like, and want the things you want, and be the person you have been looking for, because it's part of his patterns. Just because he did that with the women that came before you, doesn't mean he's doing that with you. He's really sincere this time.
He's told you all his deep dark secrets (at least, all the ones he thinks can win him sympathy and attention). He's acknowledged how he behaved badly in the past (even though it was brought out by who he was with). You two must have a very special connection for him to be so open and "honest". And he seems to be remorseful, so that must mean he won't do that kind of thing again, right? Not with you. You're special. So what if he told his wife the same kinds of deep, dark secrets, opened up in the same way? So what if he exhibited the same kind of remorse for things he did to partners before HER? So what if he told her all the same sob stories and pretended to be working on his [censored] with her? So what if he lied to his therapist and others? He really means it this time, with you.
He says things are going to be different with YOU. Even though he SAYS he accepts responsibility for his actions, he also says that it was really things in HER that brought out his bad behavior. He's not going to be like that with YOU. Sure, he said the same things to HER, but this time he'll be different, because he's told you how YOU are different from her. (So what if he's told other people how you remind him of HER? That doesn't mean he's following the same old patterns, targeting the same types of women. That doesn't mean that he'll be turn emotionally abusive with YOU at some point...) He's such a sweet, wonderful, helpful guy, it MUST have been something in HER that caused him to act badly, right?
So what if he was busy cutting her down behind her back with their mutual friends while he was telling her she was the "best thing that ever happened to him", and that he had "never loved anyone as much as he loved her"? That doesn't mean he still has the capacity to be manipulative and dishonest and cruel. He was just confused, the poor man. And besides, he won't be like that anymore, with the right woman to love him and dote on him. She just didn't give him the kind of attention he really needed. But YOU will. So he'd NEVER do that to YOU.
So what if he didn't leave his wife before he got together with you? It's not like an abuser should spend a few years in therapy, and work on his stuff before getting involved in another intimate relationship, right? I mean, after over 4 decades of emotional abuse and being an abuser, he can get himself fixed up enough to stop harming others in a just few months, with the right woman to rescue, er, "help" him.
And those stories of how his wife emotionally abandoned him... He's just had it so ROUGH all his life! He told you how she didn't even try to keep the marriage together or say that she wanted to try to salvage their relationship when he said he wanted to separate. She was just so unfeeling! The poor man - here he was trying so HARD and all - seeing a counselor and everything! It couldn't possibly be that SHE was so emotionally beaten down by his behavior that she was RELIEVED when he wanted to leave... He couldn't have been emotionally abusive and dishonest with HER too! If his wife didn't trust him, it had nothing to do with HIM and his behavior - it must have been HER issues.
Even if in his past, he DID say, "Some of the problems I bring about by vamping, pumping up the emotional content of a situation. Of course that's easy to do with a new friend. I have a stock of techniques and behaviors, tested. I'm also inventive ... so I pick up new techniques fairly quickly ... It's just I'd rather enjoy the "romance". It comes naturally to me. I enjoy doing it. It's also a head trip for me, with my poor self esteem, to have someone so taken with me. I like the first results, the joyous feelings, the elation, the euphoria, just not where it leads." ... he couldn't possibly still have been doing that with his wife, or even YOU. He has REAL, deep feelings for you. You've even seen him cry and show his vulnerable side. That MUST mean he's sincere, right? He couldn't possibly be using YOU for an ego stroke. Not the man YOU know.
He's just so caring and sensitive and considerate. He's so sweet, rubbing baby oil all over you, making love, sending you little cards, doing all those romantic things. He really does seem too good to be true - cooking, cleaning, intelligent, literate, creative, affectionate. So what if he was like that for the first year or so with her too... before the subtle patterns of abuse started to creep in? So what if all that "wonderful" behavior shifted until he was telling her he loved her one day and then telling others how horrible she was behind her back the next? He wouldn't do that to you too, down the road. She must have brought it out in him. He couldn't possibly be playing the same game over and over again, with you as the next target. No. This time, he'll be different, with you.
So what if he has been incapable of honesty and integrity all his life? So what if he actually admitted to his wife (just about the time you two started up again): "I am afraid of truth-tellers. I have so many lies in my past and present. The truth burns." That couldn't mean that he was telling lies to YOU. After all, he was so HONEST about his dishonesty so THAT'S got to count for something... It must mean he realizes his mistakes and won't make the same ones again, right? The fact that he acknowledges things is so CONVINCING. If he acknowledges it, then he couldn't possibly STILL do those sorts of things. Sure, sure. He had HER convinced too. But he couldn't possibly be STILL lying to YOU. You're special.
Yeah, sure, he might have done those kinds of things in the past, but the past is the past, right? It doesn't have any danger of repeating itself with you. Because you're special. His love for you is so strong and your connection to each other is so different (at least, that's what he has told you, and you know you can trust him, right?), he wouldn't EVER do anything deliberately hurtful or malicious to YOU. He wouldn't undermine YOUR support network and use your friends to hurt YOU. He'd never make snide remarks about YOU behind your back and then make sure you found out about it. No no no. She must have brought that out in him. But you, you're special.
Besides, he's been in therapy. That must mean he's sincere, right? He wouldn't possibly be using the whole "therapy" thing as a cover-up to make himself look better because his reputation got damaged after the fiasco with his wife. He couldn't possibly be using contrition, and the "I feel so bad about myself"-line to get sympathy and support! He couldn't possibly be going after women who have a strong sense of personal responsibility because he knows how to manipulate that to try and get them to feel responsible for HIS sick feelings. He couldn't possibly be seeking out active, intelligent, dedicated women, so that he can PUNISH them when they don't direct all that energy to HIM. Just because he has engaged in such manipulative behavior in the past doesn't mean he would be doing that NOW. Not with YOU. You're SPECIAL.
He's so contrite and sincere about "working on his issues", he couldn't possibly be lying about that. Just because he has a history pathological lying to himself and others, doesn't mean he'll be that way with you. Besides, if he has deceived himself so completely that HE doesn't know it's a lie, then he can't be held accountable for it, right? He can always claim that he doesn't have good "memory" for things in the past. But don't worry. He won't use that sort of deception and evasion with YOU. You're special.
The poor guy just made bad choices before (you). Sure he made mistakes, but if his ex doesn't want to have anything to do with him, and now think he is mentally ill, it must be because SHE is unstable - I mean, look at how amazing and kind and charming he is with you... He couldn't possibly have been like that with HER TOO... He wouldn't be using stock romance "lines" on YOU.
This time, it's REALLY love. You're Special.
Sure, he did a *few* things in his past that were unkind, but he needs to be forgiven for HIS behavior, (after all, she drove him to it), but HER mistakes and reactions to his emotional abuse, were unforgivable. But things will be different with you. He won't think YOUR mistakes are unforgivable. He won't apply a double-standard to YOU. He won't expect YOU to be perfect and subtely criticize you when you don't measure up to his standards. You're the one who is going to change his life.
And speaking of unforgivable, of COURSE he can't forgive her for doing things that *hurt* him (he's so deeply sensitive, you see) - but he couldn't possibly have lied about the things he said she did. He couldn't possibly have "set up" situations so he could cry foul... He wouldn't have ENCOURAGED her to do things so he could later claim that he was hurt by her... And, well, even if he DID, maybe do that, he certainly won't do it with YOU. You're too special for that. Any time he tells you he's happy for you and he encourages you to do something, he'll REALLY mean it, with YOU. He won't create a revisionist fantasy of your past so that he can insist you did things to hurt him as a justification for his cruelty to you. He won't secretly resent you for not devoting all your time to him. Even if he DID do that with her, he won't do it with you. Especially after he makes all those sacrifices for you. He won't secretly be dependent on YOU for all his attention. He won't be more demanding of you and your time and resent you when you don't give it all to him. Not THIS time. You're SPECIAL.
He's such a nice guy, he won't "help" you (especially unsolicited) and then have an unstated hidden agenda like he did with all the others. He's going to claim his right to be "selfish" now, because he's been so USED from all the excessive GIVING he did in the past that nobody really appreciated. The poor guy. He's never taken time to be selfish in the past - not even when he was sitting alone in his room, sucking off his hurts, or using other people. That wasn't selfish - that was just "acting out". But he's better now. Don't worry. He won't use his new-found right to be "selfish" against YOU. No. He really is a changed man, with you. With you he will give unconditionally.
It's no WONDER he behaved so badly! Look at how his wife was always hurting him, oppressing him with her refusal to live her life solely for him, expecting him to be honest with his feelings and actions, when he just wasn't ready. And besides, he just can't handle confrontation, you know? And like, she's just so SCARY when she's upset (it's just so unbeCOMing when women display any anger!) that he HAD to act that way. She actually raised her voice at times! Can you imagine? Nobody else is allowed to have anger and raise their voice except HIM. Because, like, he can't DEAL with it, and he shouldn't be expected to! He couldn't possibly have been projecting HIS issues on her so that someone else could have his anger FOR him, or so that he could get angry with someone other than himself! He couldn't possibly have been DELIBERATELY hitting all her hot buttons to hurt and upset her so he could lay blame. And, well, even if he DID do that for years, he won't do it anymore, with you.
And if somehow you accidentally do things that "trigger" his old abuse patterns, he'll be so sweet in telling you how you are doing things that remind him of her, so that YOU can change YOUR behavior. After all, you wouldn't want him to start acting emotionlly abusive again because of something YOU did.
And you don't have to worry about that, because you'll never get upset with him, and you'll never challenge him to be honest or to accept responsibility for his actions. SHE did that, and it was "controlling," but it'll be different with you, because you know better. And you won't need to worry about calling him on his behavior anyway, because he'll NEVER lie to YOU. He'll always be completely honest and upfront with you. He won't have to "forget" any promises he made to YOU. If he is inconsiderate, it won't be DELIBERATE, with you. If he lied to her or anyone else, it was because they drove him to it. With you, he won't withhold information, or distort or omitt the truth. He won't break fundamental relationship agreements with YOU. He won't HAVE to, because you'll be right there validating him 24/7, supporting him and telling him how he's so CLEVER and BRAVE to have escaped such a horrible relationship, and how wonderful it is that he is working so HARD to overcome his terrible past!
And it's a good thing he's not going to do any of those things he might have done in the past, because then you won't have to worry about forgiving him. You see, she REPEATEDLY forgave him for the lies and the accidentally-on-purpose "mistakes", and all that did was make him feel bad about himself - that she could forgive and he couldn't. Wasn't that AWFUL of her to make him feel so bad that way? So she DESERVED to be punished even more. And she should NEVER have shown any guilt when he manipulated her. It just caused him to hurt her more. He told her it was "like blood in the water for sharks" for him. She should have known better. YOU know better. But then, he won't be manipulative and passive-aggressive with YOU. He'll be different with you. You're SPECIAL.
And sure he made her work at the relationship when he wasn't really trying, but that wasn't being dishonest - he just didn't know what he really wanted, so that made it OK to put the burden of the relationship responsibility on her. Sure he admitted that he wanted her to make him the first priority in HER life, but he wasn't willing to afford her the same consideration. But that wasn't one of his patterns. He won't do that with YOU. Besides, he admitted his dishonest behavior after he abandon her, so that makes it ok. It erases everything. His slate's clean. He even said he was sorry, months later, so that shows how sincere he was. He couldn't possibly still have been interlacing the apology with blame. He's not STILL acting manipulative and projecting issues.... and well, if he is, he's only doing that with HER because of their history - he wouldn't do that with YOU.
And it's so sweet how he still talks about how much he cared for his wife, how much he did for her out of love. Sometimes, he even talks fondly of his treasured memories of her, of how she "helped" him (when she wasn't hurting him, the witch) - that must mean he's a deep, sensitive guy, right? Maybe you can even "help" him to forgive her and heal from his terrible past... Just like SHE thought she could "help" him.
And besides, he did so many NICE things for her and all those other women. That should count for SOMETHING, right? It's not like he was emotionally abusive or manipulative ALL the time. So it kind of cancels things out, right? It's not like he HIT anyone or anything. At least the things he did didn't leave any VISIBLE marks. Besides, he probably just made honest mistakes, that's all. He couldn't have actually got off on seeing them hurt and crying. He wouldn't have LAUGHED condescendingly in someone's face while she was crying. Not the man YOU are involved with. HE certainly doesn't remember doing anything like that - and HIS memory is inviolate.
He's told you how different he feels with YOU. How different he IS with you. How healing your love is. How much he NEEDS you. What a wonderful person he thinks you are. How important you are in his life. How much he values and appreciates you, and misses you when you are not together. How amazingly transformed he feels now that he has finally met someone as SPECIAL as YOU. So what if he told her the same things? He really MEANS it this time, with you. He's a changed person, (this time, for REAL) with you. You're special.
You don't need to talk to any of his ex's to find out what he was REALLY like, because the past is the past, right? You couldn't possibly learn anything from their experiences, because he's not going to be like that anymore. It couldn't possibly be that they have anything valid to say. Besides, you trust him to tell you the WHOLE TRUTH about his past (as far as he can "remember" it), right?
And he's such a sensitive, caring guy, he REALLY does wish he and his wife could be FRIENDS now. He can't understand why she would have NO desire to have any contact with him, NO desire to have anything to do with him - after all he did for her, after what they had. After all, SHE is the one who did unforgivable things. He's so uncomfortable around her now, because of how much she hurt him. He wouldn't STILL be projecting HIS issues on her, and implying that they are HER issues... After all, he's a changed man.
But you don't have to worry. He won't PUBLICLY divulge YOUR insecurities or deeply intimate things you told him in confidence to other women - he won't betray your trust - like he did with her. No matter what happens between you and him, you'll ALWAYS BE FRIENDS. You and he will always be able to work things out. So what if he said EXACTLY THE SAME THING TO HER (and all the others) too? It'll be different with you. You're special.
He won't wait a year or two before he starts in on YOU. He won't then use his knowledge of YOUR insecurities and emotional hot buttons to deliberately hurt YOU. He won't start using psychological warfare to couch his deliberately hurtful actions in social plausibility with YOU. He won't flirt with your close friends and use any attraction they might have to him, against YOU. NO. He won't tell you that you just weren't meeting his needs or living up to his expectations. He won't expect you to read his mind. He won't try to make it look like YOU are the reason he is unhappy, and YOU are the cause of your relationship problems. He won't set you up to get upset with him so that YOU are the one who breaks it off with him, (or you get so angry with him that he HAS to break it off with YOU) and HE looks like a martyr (AGAIN). So what if he made all the same promises to her? Just because he was following some of his old patterns when he got involved with you, doesn't mean he's going to follow through on the rest of them. He's CHANGED now.
You're special. Just like SHE was when he was with HER. Just like they ALL thought they were.
YOU are the one who can "fix" his wounded ego. Your relationship with him will be So Much Better than his last ones, because you're special! With you, he'll be honest and straight-forward for the first time in his life. He won't become cruel or passive-aggressive. He won't play headgames anymore. He'll stop using and discarding people like old kleenex. He won't be rude or unkind or disrespectful like he was with those other women. HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH, HE'S NOW A CHANGED MAN. (Changed for the better, of course.) Not because of therapy. Not because he's removed himself from relationships and taken some serious time to get his [censored] together. Not because he's done any REAL work. Not because he's actually admitted to his real motivations, or made a single sincere change.
He just needed to find the RIGHT woman to "save" him from himself and "help" him become a better man, and that's YOU.
You just KNOW he'll be different with you. Right?
Author Unknown
You two have a "connection," a rapport that he didn't have with his wife. You have more things in common, similar personalities. He's pointed out all the ways that you two are so alike - it's just uncanny. You are so lucky to have met him at this point in your life. He says that he really appreciates you for who you are - and he's the first person to really do that, isn't he? Sure, he said the same things to *her* when he got together with her (and then grew to hate so many things about her), but it's different with you. He couldn't possibly be operating from scripts anymore. And it's so nice to finally have someone YOU can lean on, isn't it? It's hard being on your own, managing a household, and doing it all yourself. All of a sudden, here's this guy offering to help in ways that no one ever did. Knowing all the things you have been longing for and wanting in a partner. He couldn't possibly be hooking into your heart-felt desires and hurt places and pretending to be the answer, because he knows that's where you are vulnerable. He couldn't be pretending to like the things you like, and want the things you want, and be the person you have been looking for, because it's part of his patterns. Just because he did that with the women that came before you, doesn't mean he's doing that with you. He's really sincere this time.
He's told you all his deep dark secrets (at least, all the ones he thinks can win him sympathy and attention). He's acknowledged how he behaved badly in the past (even though it was brought out by who he was with). You two must have a very special connection for him to be so open and "honest". And he seems to be remorseful, so that must mean he won't do that kind of thing again, right? Not with you. You're special. So what if he told his wife the same kinds of deep, dark secrets, opened up in the same way? So what if he exhibited the same kind of remorse for things he did to partners before HER? So what if he told her all the same sob stories and pretended to be working on his [censored] with her? So what if he lied to his therapist and others? He really means it this time, with you.
He says things are going to be different with YOU. Even though he SAYS he accepts responsibility for his actions, he also says that it was really things in HER that brought out his bad behavior. He's not going to be like that with YOU. Sure, he said the same things to HER, but this time he'll be different, because he's told you how YOU are different from her. (So what if he's told other people how you remind him of HER? That doesn't mean he's following the same old patterns, targeting the same types of women. That doesn't mean that he'll be turn emotionally abusive with YOU at some point...) He's such a sweet, wonderful, helpful guy, it MUST have been something in HER that caused him to act badly, right?
So what if he was busy cutting her down behind her back with their mutual friends while he was telling her she was the "best thing that ever happened to him", and that he had "never loved anyone as much as he loved her"? That doesn't mean he still has the capacity to be manipulative and dishonest and cruel. He was just confused, the poor man. And besides, he won't be like that anymore, with the right woman to love him and dote on him. She just didn't give him the kind of attention he really needed. But YOU will. So he'd NEVER do that to YOU.
So what if he didn't leave his wife before he got together with you? It's not like an abuser should spend a few years in therapy, and work on his stuff before getting involved in another intimate relationship, right? I mean, after over 4 decades of emotional abuse and being an abuser, he can get himself fixed up enough to stop harming others in a just few months, with the right woman to rescue, er, "help" him.
And those stories of how his wife emotionally abandoned him... He's just had it so ROUGH all his life! He told you how she didn't even try to keep the marriage together or say that she wanted to try to salvage their relationship when he said he wanted to separate. She was just so unfeeling! The poor man - here he was trying so HARD and all - seeing a counselor and everything! It couldn't possibly be that SHE was so emotionally beaten down by his behavior that she was RELIEVED when he wanted to leave... He couldn't have been emotionally abusive and dishonest with HER too! If his wife didn't trust him, it had nothing to do with HIM and his behavior - it must have been HER issues.
Even if in his past, he DID say, "Some of the problems I bring about by vamping, pumping up the emotional content of a situation. Of course that's easy to do with a new friend. I have a stock of techniques and behaviors, tested. I'm also inventive ... so I pick up new techniques fairly quickly ... It's just I'd rather enjoy the "romance". It comes naturally to me. I enjoy doing it. It's also a head trip for me, with my poor self esteem, to have someone so taken with me. I like the first results, the joyous feelings, the elation, the euphoria, just not where it leads." ... he couldn't possibly still have been doing that with his wife, or even YOU. He has REAL, deep feelings for you. You've even seen him cry and show his vulnerable side. That MUST mean he's sincere, right? He couldn't possibly be using YOU for an ego stroke. Not the man YOU know.
He's just so caring and sensitive and considerate. He's so sweet, rubbing baby oil all over you, making love, sending you little cards, doing all those romantic things. He really does seem too good to be true - cooking, cleaning, intelligent, literate, creative, affectionate. So what if he was like that for the first year or so with her too... before the subtle patterns of abuse started to creep in? So what if all that "wonderful" behavior shifted until he was telling her he loved her one day and then telling others how horrible she was behind her back the next? He wouldn't do that to you too, down the road. She must have brought it out in him. He couldn't possibly be playing the same game over and over again, with you as the next target. No. This time, he'll be different, with you.
So what if he has been incapable of honesty and integrity all his life? So what if he actually admitted to his wife (just about the time you two started up again): "I am afraid of truth-tellers. I have so many lies in my past and present. The truth burns." That couldn't mean that he was telling lies to YOU. After all, he was so HONEST about his dishonesty so THAT'S got to count for something... It must mean he realizes his mistakes and won't make the same ones again, right? The fact that he acknowledges things is so CONVINCING. If he acknowledges it, then he couldn't possibly STILL do those sorts of things. Sure, sure. He had HER convinced too. But he couldn't possibly be STILL lying to YOU. You're special.
Yeah, sure, he might have done those kinds of things in the past, but the past is the past, right? It doesn't have any danger of repeating itself with you. Because you're special. His love for you is so strong and your connection to each other is so different (at least, that's what he has told you, and you know you can trust him, right?), he wouldn't EVER do anything deliberately hurtful or malicious to YOU. He wouldn't undermine YOUR support network and use your friends to hurt YOU. He'd never make snide remarks about YOU behind your back and then make sure you found out about it. No no no. She must have brought that out in him. But you, you're special.
Besides, he's been in therapy. That must mean he's sincere, right? He wouldn't possibly be using the whole "therapy" thing as a cover-up to make himself look better because his reputation got damaged after the fiasco with his wife. He couldn't possibly be using contrition, and the "I feel so bad about myself"-line to get sympathy and support! He couldn't possibly be going after women who have a strong sense of personal responsibility because he knows how to manipulate that to try and get them to feel responsible for HIS sick feelings. He couldn't possibly be seeking out active, intelligent, dedicated women, so that he can PUNISH them when they don't direct all that energy to HIM. Just because he has engaged in such manipulative behavior in the past doesn't mean he would be doing that NOW. Not with YOU. You're SPECIAL.
He's so contrite and sincere about "working on his issues", he couldn't possibly be lying about that. Just because he has a history pathological lying to himself and others, doesn't mean he'll be that way with you. Besides, if he has deceived himself so completely that HE doesn't know it's a lie, then he can't be held accountable for it, right? He can always claim that he doesn't have good "memory" for things in the past. But don't worry. He won't use that sort of deception and evasion with YOU. You're special.
The poor guy just made bad choices before (you). Sure he made mistakes, but if his ex doesn't want to have anything to do with him, and now think he is mentally ill, it must be because SHE is unstable - I mean, look at how amazing and kind and charming he is with you... He couldn't possibly have been like that with HER TOO... He wouldn't be using stock romance "lines" on YOU.
This time, it's REALLY love. You're Special.
Sure, he did a *few* things in his past that were unkind, but he needs to be forgiven for HIS behavior, (after all, she drove him to it), but HER mistakes and reactions to his emotional abuse, were unforgivable. But things will be different with you. He won't think YOUR mistakes are unforgivable. He won't apply a double-standard to YOU. He won't expect YOU to be perfect and subtely criticize you when you don't measure up to his standards. You're the one who is going to change his life.
And speaking of unforgivable, of COURSE he can't forgive her for doing things that *hurt* him (he's so deeply sensitive, you see) - but he couldn't possibly have lied about the things he said she did. He couldn't possibly have "set up" situations so he could cry foul... He wouldn't have ENCOURAGED her to do things so he could later claim that he was hurt by her... And, well, even if he DID, maybe do that, he certainly won't do it with YOU. You're too special for that. Any time he tells you he's happy for you and he encourages you to do something, he'll REALLY mean it, with YOU. He won't create a revisionist fantasy of your past so that he can insist you did things to hurt him as a justification for his cruelty to you. He won't secretly resent you for not devoting all your time to him. Even if he DID do that with her, he won't do it with you. Especially after he makes all those sacrifices for you. He won't secretly be dependent on YOU for all his attention. He won't be more demanding of you and your time and resent you when you don't give it all to him. Not THIS time. You're SPECIAL.
He's such a nice guy, he won't "help" you (especially unsolicited) and then have an unstated hidden agenda like he did with all the others. He's going to claim his right to be "selfish" now, because he's been so USED from all the excessive GIVING he did in the past that nobody really appreciated. The poor guy. He's never taken time to be selfish in the past - not even when he was sitting alone in his room, sucking off his hurts, or using other people. That wasn't selfish - that was just "acting out". But he's better now. Don't worry. He won't use his new-found right to be "selfish" against YOU. No. He really is a changed man, with you. With you he will give unconditionally.
It's no WONDER he behaved so badly! Look at how his wife was always hurting him, oppressing him with her refusal to live her life solely for him, expecting him to be honest with his feelings and actions, when he just wasn't ready. And besides, he just can't handle confrontation, you know? And like, she's just so SCARY when she's upset (it's just so unbeCOMing when women display any anger!) that he HAD to act that way. She actually raised her voice at times! Can you imagine? Nobody else is allowed to have anger and raise their voice except HIM. Because, like, he can't DEAL with it, and he shouldn't be expected to! He couldn't possibly have been projecting HIS issues on her so that someone else could have his anger FOR him, or so that he could get angry with someone other than himself! He couldn't possibly have been DELIBERATELY hitting all her hot buttons to hurt and upset her so he could lay blame. And, well, even if he DID do that for years, he won't do it anymore, with you.
And if somehow you accidentally do things that "trigger" his old abuse patterns, he'll be so sweet in telling you how you are doing things that remind him of her, so that YOU can change YOUR behavior. After all, you wouldn't want him to start acting emotionlly abusive again because of something YOU did.
And you don't have to worry about that, because you'll never get upset with him, and you'll never challenge him to be honest or to accept responsibility for his actions. SHE did that, and it was "controlling," but it'll be different with you, because you know better. And you won't need to worry about calling him on his behavior anyway, because he'll NEVER lie to YOU. He'll always be completely honest and upfront with you. He won't have to "forget" any promises he made to YOU. If he is inconsiderate, it won't be DELIBERATE, with you. If he lied to her or anyone else, it was because they drove him to it. With you, he won't withhold information, or distort or omitt the truth. He won't break fundamental relationship agreements with YOU. He won't HAVE to, because you'll be right there validating him 24/7, supporting him and telling him how he's so CLEVER and BRAVE to have escaped such a horrible relationship, and how wonderful it is that he is working so HARD to overcome his terrible past!
And it's a good thing he's not going to do any of those things he might have done in the past, because then you won't have to worry about forgiving him. You see, she REPEATEDLY forgave him for the lies and the accidentally-on-purpose "mistakes", and all that did was make him feel bad about himself - that she could forgive and he couldn't. Wasn't that AWFUL of her to make him feel so bad that way? So she DESERVED to be punished even more. And she should NEVER have shown any guilt when he manipulated her. It just caused him to hurt her more. He told her it was "like blood in the water for sharks" for him. She should have known better. YOU know better. But then, he won't be manipulative and passive-aggressive with YOU. He'll be different with you. You're SPECIAL.
And sure he made her work at the relationship when he wasn't really trying, but that wasn't being dishonest - he just didn't know what he really wanted, so that made it OK to put the burden of the relationship responsibility on her. Sure he admitted that he wanted her to make him the first priority in HER life, but he wasn't willing to afford her the same consideration. But that wasn't one of his patterns. He won't do that with YOU. Besides, he admitted his dishonest behavior after he abandon her, so that makes it ok. It erases everything. His slate's clean. He even said he was sorry, months later, so that shows how sincere he was. He couldn't possibly still have been interlacing the apology with blame. He's not STILL acting manipulative and projecting issues.... and well, if he is, he's only doing that with HER because of their history - he wouldn't do that with YOU.
And it's so sweet how he still talks about how much he cared for his wife, how much he did for her out of love. Sometimes, he even talks fondly of his treasured memories of her, of how she "helped" him (when she wasn't hurting him, the witch) - that must mean he's a deep, sensitive guy, right? Maybe you can even "help" him to forgive her and heal from his terrible past... Just like SHE thought she could "help" him.
And besides, he did so many NICE things for her and all those other women. That should count for SOMETHING, right? It's not like he was emotionally abusive or manipulative ALL the time. So it kind of cancels things out, right? It's not like he HIT anyone or anything. At least the things he did didn't leave any VISIBLE marks. Besides, he probably just made honest mistakes, that's all. He couldn't have actually got off on seeing them hurt and crying. He wouldn't have LAUGHED condescendingly in someone's face while she was crying. Not the man YOU are involved with. HE certainly doesn't remember doing anything like that - and HIS memory is inviolate.
He's told you how different he feels with YOU. How different he IS with you. How healing your love is. How much he NEEDS you. What a wonderful person he thinks you are. How important you are in his life. How much he values and appreciates you, and misses you when you are not together. How amazingly transformed he feels now that he has finally met someone as SPECIAL as YOU. So what if he told her the same things? He really MEANS it this time, with you. He's a changed person, (this time, for REAL) with you. You're special.
You don't need to talk to any of his ex's to find out what he was REALLY like, because the past is the past, right? You couldn't possibly learn anything from their experiences, because he's not going to be like that anymore. It couldn't possibly be that they have anything valid to say. Besides, you trust him to tell you the WHOLE TRUTH about his past (as far as he can "remember" it), right?
And he's such a sensitive, caring guy, he REALLY does wish he and his wife could be FRIENDS now. He can't understand why she would have NO desire to have any contact with him, NO desire to have anything to do with him - after all he did for her, after what they had. After all, SHE is the one who did unforgivable things. He's so uncomfortable around her now, because of how much she hurt him. He wouldn't STILL be projecting HIS issues on her, and implying that they are HER issues... After all, he's a changed man.
But you don't have to worry. He won't PUBLICLY divulge YOUR insecurities or deeply intimate things you told him in confidence to other women - he won't betray your trust - like he did with her. No matter what happens between you and him, you'll ALWAYS BE FRIENDS. You and he will always be able to work things out. So what if he said EXACTLY THE SAME THING TO HER (and all the others) too? It'll be different with you. You're special.
He won't wait a year or two before he starts in on YOU. He won't then use his knowledge of YOUR insecurities and emotional hot buttons to deliberately hurt YOU. He won't start using psychological warfare to couch his deliberately hurtful actions in social plausibility with YOU. He won't flirt with your close friends and use any attraction they might have to him, against YOU. NO. He won't tell you that you just weren't meeting his needs or living up to his expectations. He won't expect you to read his mind. He won't try to make it look like YOU are the reason he is unhappy, and YOU are the cause of your relationship problems. He won't set you up to get upset with him so that YOU are the one who breaks it off with him, (or you get so angry with him that he HAS to break it off with YOU) and HE looks like a martyr (AGAIN). So what if he made all the same promises to her? Just because he was following some of his old patterns when he got involved with you, doesn't mean he's going to follow through on the rest of them. He's CHANGED now.
You're special. Just like SHE was when he was with HER. Just like they ALL thought they were.
YOU are the one who can "fix" his wounded ego. Your relationship with him will be So Much Better than his last ones, because you're special! With you, he'll be honest and straight-forward for the first time in his life. He won't become cruel or passive-aggressive. He won't play headgames anymore. He'll stop using and discarding people like old kleenex. He won't be rude or unkind or disrespectful like he was with those other women. HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH, HE'S NOW A CHANGED MAN. (Changed for the better, of course.) Not because of therapy. Not because he's removed himself from relationships and taken some serious time to get his [censored] together. Not because he's done any REAL work. Not because he's actually admitted to his real motivations, or made a single sincere change.
He just needed to find the RIGHT woman to "save" him from himself and "help" him become a better man, and that's YOU.
You just KNOW he'll be different with you. Right?
Hiker: Dealing with romantic affairs - 05/01/07 04:43 PM
There are several different types of affairs, but this post will deal with the "romantic" type. In this type of affair, the wandering or wayward spouse (WS) has crossed a boundary and "fallen in love" with an affair partner (OP, other person). What makes this affair so difficult to deal with is that it is emotionally driven. The "in love" state is often so powerful that the WS may be willing to sacrifice the marriage and just about everything else to pursue it.
You have probably heard about or known a teenager who has been told that the person they are dating and in love with is using him or her or is demonstrably bad for them. Have you ever seen such a person take anyone’s advice and stop seeing this lover? It’s rare, because one’s emotions corrupt any attempt at clear thinking. This is what happens in romantic affairs. It is a powerful fantasy relationship in which the partners may idealize each other and bond in a way that makes everything else in their lives seem insignificant by comparison. If your spouse is engaged in a romantic affair and agrees to break it off, you are extremely lucky.
From the point of view of a betrayed spouse (BS), one’s spouse having an affair appears to be a rejection of you in favor of someone else. This can be a devastating blow to your self-esteem. You hear things like “I love you, but I’m not in love with you,” and other statements along similar lines. You are shocked that this person who pledged to love you through thick and thin or until “death do us part” has suddenly forgotten that commitment or decided to revoke it without advance notice. (Chances are your spouse never talked about a marital crisis or separation or divorce before the affair.) They don’t want to work on the marriage, and you don’t understand why. They latch onto any events in your past in which you had a disagreement with them, no matter how rare or insignificant they seem, as evidence of your incompatibility. They won’t go to counseling, or if they do, they use it by sabotaging the counselor’s efforts and then tell you “I told you it wouldn’t work!” They won’t stop the affair, even though you can point out a dozen practical reasons for stopping it and fixing the marriage. They are not concerned about the children, after all, “they’ll adapt.” Your joint personal finances are jeopardized because the pursuit of love is more important than worrying about money or mortgages or credit card bills. Your wandering spouse’s family and friends may turn against you too. You don’t know what they’ve been told, but it’s a safe bet that they’ve been given a laundry list of grievances against you, while carefully leaving out the details of how they lied, cheated, and deceived you to pursue their affair. Of course, all those things were justified because you weren’t a good spouse, and this new person in their life is their true soul mate.
You’re angry, upset, and depressed. You fluctuate between these emotions while trying to make sense of it all. But you can’t make sense of it because infidelity is not a sensible act. In fact, much of what your spouse does seems self-destructive. That is because it is self-destructive, and if you are not careful your spouse will destroy you, too.
What can you do when you discover that your spouse is engaged in a romantic affair? Well:
“I advise spouse’s who are waiting for their mate’s romance to end: don’t try to out-romance a romantic. Don’t bother to arouse jealousy. Don’t try to get your partner’s attention, increase your partner’s guilt, or threaten some kind of unpleasantness. Just express your point of view and then go off and do whatever holds you together during this time.”
Only Dr. Harley offers a plan for dealing with a spouse who is unwilling to stop the affair (see Plan A and Plan B on the MB website). But even Dr. Harley acknowledges that affairs of this nature are extremely difficult to break. They are often characterized as addictions, because they share many of the self-destructive traits that are visible among alcoholics and drug addicts. Most affairs will have to “burn out,” that is, they run their course until the romance fades and reality intrudes to destroy the fantasy. Unfortunately, this very often doesn’t happen until a lengthy separation between husband and wife occurs, or in some cases, after a divorce.
Here are some things to consider:
1. The affair is not your fault. No matter what the state of the marriage prior to the affair, no one forces the WS to have the affair, and having the affair is clearly not a solution to marital problems. (Click this link: It's Not Your Fault)
2. It is a myth that affairs don’t occur in good marriages. People in good marriages DO have affairs. Dr. Pittman says the following:
"Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones."
You probably know someone who loves their wife or husband and claims to have a good marriage, but still can’t turn down an opportunity for a sexual encounter with someone else. This is especially true of philandering men. There are other reasons why people engage in affairs that have nothing to do with the marriage itself; self-esteem issues, depression, sexual addictions, etc.
3. Don’t take the affair personally. This is not a rejection of you; this is simply a bad choice by your partner who most likely tried to hide the affair from you because they didn’t want to lose you.
4. The OP is not necessarily more attractive or sexier than the betrayed spouse (BS). Most of the time the affair partner is no better in bed than the BS, it’s just that the intense emotional involvement makes it seem so, especially for women. Also, the OP is often chosen more for his/her incompatibility with the WS than for any similarities; the greater the differences, the more intense the relationship.
5. Not all affairs result in divorce. Most statistics indicate that, of couples who seek counseling for having marital problems due to an affair, between 80 and 85% reconcile. In Pittman’s experience, most of the couples who divorced after an affair did so because of the steadfast refusal of the WS to stop the affair.
6. Nearly all affairs end, usually within two years or less. Even when the affairees marry each other, only 25% of them are still together after 5 years. Pittman found that five years after the revelation of an affair, most WSs were back with their marriage partner.
7. In romantic affairs, it is usually a waste of time to try to talk the WS into stopping the affair, working on the marriage, or getting counseling. But it won’t hurt to try once or twice when you first uncover the affair. Don’t expect the WS be sensible or practical.
8. Although it goes against Dr. Harley’s advice, it may be a bad idea to assume responsibility for marital problems at the time of discovery of a romantic affair. That’s because the WS is looking for justification for the affair and by assuming responsibility for any marital problems, real or imagined, you are inadvertently giving your spouse an excuse for his/her actions. No attempt to solve marital problems will work while the affair continues. Stop the affair first, then talk about marital problems and their solution.
9. Don’t beg for a second chance or promise to change in an attempt to persuade your WS to stop the affair or prevent separation or divorce. This doesn’t work. Don’t allow what love your WS has for you to be turned into pity. Keep a bold front, even if it is only a façade and you are crumbling inside.
10. It is the WS who most often files for divorce. Interestingly, Dr. Pittman says there is almost always a point when the WS makes an attempt to return to the BS, even after the divorce occurs, (although you may not recognize the attempt for what it is, and it may come as a result of the WS’s desire to assure themselves of your continued love).
11. Don’t be surprised if your WS claims all sorts of marital problems that you had no idea existed. The creation and/or gross exaggeration of marital problems is part of the process of transferring guilt of the affair to you or the marriage. It is an attempt by the WS to rationalize what cannot be excused. Does the WS believe what he/she says about the marriage? The power of self-deception is often proportional to the guilt one would be forced to endure without it; WSs often believe their own lies and some never come to grips with the truth.
12. If your WS has had multiple romantic affairs, it may be that they are in love with the idea of being in love. These people are very often not suitable for marriage and will bounce from relationship to relationship until their dying day. You may want to bail out of this marriage or be prepared to spend a lot of money on a psychiatrist.
13. Although you may be desirous of saving your marriage, it is best to prepare for the worst. Seek legal advice about your possible divorce and custody issues. Do whatever is necessary to prevent the WS from destroying your financial resources along with your marriage.
For those of you looking for quick and easy solutions, there are none. Dr. Harley recommends exposure (telling any friends, family, or co-workers who might be able to influence the WS to stop the affair) as a method of accelerating the demise of an affair, but generally speaking, there are three possible outcomes even if you follow Dr. Harley’s Plan A/B:
A. The affair continues, a divorce ensues, and the affairees live together happily ever after. (This is very rare.)
B. The affair continues for a time after discovery, the affairees eventually break up, but either the WS or BS or both refuse to reconcile. (The probability of this occurring seems to be directly proportional to the length of the affair.)
C. The affair continues for a time after discovery, the affairees eventually break up, the WS and BS reconcile. (The probability of this occurring seems to be inversely proportional to the length of the affair.)
I hope this helps some of you who arrive daily on this forum. There are a lot of good folks here offering fine advice coming from first-hand experience.
Remember that you are not alone.
MB success story: Hopeful_Person - 05/01/07 04:49 PM
Wow! I was finally able to again login here. Haven't been here in ages.
Just wanted to say 'hi' to all my old MB friends, and also wanted to give encouragement to all here. Your marriage can be saved! If mine could be resurrected, anyone's can!
I came here about three years ago AFTER I was divorced. I was the former WS, and my husband had filed for divorce. The affair had lasted about four years, and for two of those years I was living with my husband. All told, my DH and I lived apart for 3 1/2 years, of which 1.5 years were spent legally divorced.
When I ended the dreadful A I found MB. It was incredible how my story was like so many others' here. What a mess I'd made of my life, and of my family's life.
After posting here for FIFTEEN months and getting much encouragment and advice from JL, Pepperband, Redhat, Litchfield, and so many others my DH finally agreed to a 'date'. The man hadn't spoken with me in years on any sort of level beyond 'hello'. It was so sad, but I took full responsibility.
That was almost two years ago this upcoming December. Our first dates were very strained and not romantic at all. Let's just say it wasn't like in the movies.
Very shortly after our first 'dates' we remarried. It all happened within about three weeks. That was just about two years ago, and soon we'll be celebrating the 24th anniversary of our first marriage.
Never, ever, give up hope UNLESS your ex has remarried. Believe me, my DH was very withdrawn and detached from me for YEARS. We don't talk much at all about our time apart. It's behind us, and we certainly don't dwell on it. It all seems like a bad nightmare, but we did learn from it.
JL always told me "patience and time". He was right.
All is going very well. Our three children are elated we're together again.
Hang in there, even if it seems hopeless!
Hopeful_person
Just wanted to say 'hi' to all my old MB friends, and also wanted to give encouragement to all here. Your marriage can be saved! If mine could be resurrected, anyone's can!
I came here about three years ago AFTER I was divorced. I was the former WS, and my husband had filed for divorce. The affair had lasted about four years, and for two of those years I was living with my husband. All told, my DH and I lived apart for 3 1/2 years, of which 1.5 years were spent legally divorced.
When I ended the dreadful A I found MB. It was incredible how my story was like so many others' here. What a mess I'd made of my life, and of my family's life.
After posting here for FIFTEEN months and getting much encouragment and advice from JL, Pepperband, Redhat, Litchfield, and so many others my DH finally agreed to a 'date'. The man hadn't spoken with me in years on any sort of level beyond 'hello'. It was so sad, but I took full responsibility.
That was almost two years ago this upcoming December. Our first dates were very strained and not romantic at all. Let's just say it wasn't like in the movies.
Very shortly after our first 'dates' we remarried. It all happened within about three weeks. That was just about two years ago, and soon we'll be celebrating the 24th anniversary of our first marriage.
Never, ever, give up hope UNLESS your ex has remarried. Believe me, my DH was very withdrawn and detached from me for YEARS. We don't talk much at all about our time apart. It's behind us, and we certainly don't dwell on it. It all seems like a bad nightmare, but we did learn from it.
JL always told me "patience and time". He was right.
All is going very well. Our three children are elated we're together again.
Hang in there, even if it seems hopeless!
Hopeful_person
Mimi's tool kit - 05/01/07 04:52 PM
It's almost 3 years since my D-DAY and what a D-DAY it was. Driving down the hotel strip in my town on New Years Eve, I see my H's car and the OW's car parked..seems like the only cars in the parking lot...the desk person MIRACULOUSLY tells me his room number..I knock on the door and he answers in his boxers,saying "I'M ENDING IT RIGHT NOW"...OH WHAT A NIGHT!...I proceed to my car and call everyone I can think of..his best friends... OW calls me on my cellphone and asks me: "Who are you the GD FBI?"(to give you a flavor of her)-guess I ruined her night of fun because my H left her there in the hotel room and so the PROCESS begins....PLAN A..FALSE RECOVERIES...PLAN B...REAL RECOVERY for 2 Years.... This may be more information than you need to know...
I wanted to share this morning because I am coming to a place of putting a lot of this behind me. It is painful to recall those events now (my body began to shake as I typed it) and I really don't have to play that out again much anymore.
My H is genuinely dear to me now. I have had the sweetest and most wonderful weekend with him. He has definitely chosen me. He has filled my life with such pleasant memories over the past two years that, even if something else happens, I feel blessed for having had this special time with him.
In the midst of this weekend, I've been lurking and reading about your trials. These are thoughts that I want to share with you before I get to the point of FORGETTING THE TRAUMAS THAT I EXPERIENCED... My FWH is wiping the pain away...Most importantly, I am becoming STRONG enough in my PERSONAL RECOVERY to not allow those past traumas and memories to intrude and rob me of EXPERIENCING TRUE JOY in my life.
DO NOT GIVE UP HOPE I held on to HOPE AND FAITH for dear life. This was the main thing that kept me going. If not hope for your marriage, maintain hope and faith in your spirit, in your soul, for your own well-being. I turned to MY GOD, to MY PERSONAL SAVIOUR in the midnight hours and constantly and regularly received PERSONAL TOUCHES and MESSAGES from the HOLY SPIRIT. Even if you do not share my religious beliefs, do whatever it takes to remain focused on the LIGHT and not the DARK....DO NOT LET ANYONE ROB YOU OF YOUR HOPE AND FAITH...that is the GOAL OF THE ENEMY....
VIEW THIS AS A SERIES OF BATTLES See yourself as a soldier in a war..a fight for yourself..a fight for your marriage..a fight against the forces of evil...Given your hope and faith (discussed above), BELIEVE that you will be victorious and conquer the ENEMY..ONE BATTLE AT A TIME....
VIEW YOUR WS AS BEING DRUG-ADDICTED My FWH was just as bad, lost,desperate, craved, nasty, smelly as any meth or cocaine addict...This is not a contest that anyone wants to win. But, I bet that I can top any story that the WSes are discussing on the boards lately... At some point in all of this, my FWH was emotionally abusive, at times physically abusive, abandoned me, abandoned his children...all of the above and worse than I can possibly believe at this point...he seemed POSSESSED and EVIL....A MONSTER, at times.. Now I look at him after FULL WITHDRAWAL and his OWN INSISTENCE on USING EXTREME PRECAUTIONS and I can't BELIEVE WHAT I SEE... He is truly the SWEETEST, KINDEST PERSON to me.. For two full years, I have waited for that MONSTER to return.. Early on, their were daily glimpses but as each day goes by he comes closer and closer to being his former self or even better....HE HAS DEFINITELY CHANGED...
LEARN STRATEGIES TO INSULATE YOURSELF FROM THE MONSTER WHO IS NOT REALLY YOUR SPOUSE It's like I learned to enclose myself in a cocoon that he could not penetrate. I would come on here to vent. I would retreat to the bathroom. I would go on LONG DRIVES in my car. It was important not to be swept up into HIS EVILNESS..INTO HIS CRAZY WORLD...That would have legitimized his craziness.. Of course, the eventual PLAN B is perfect sanctuary....
CONTINUE TO EXPOSE... This so freeing..Tell everybody you know. You are in the RIGHT. He is in the WRONG. This is an essential battle strategy. This will get back to one of them and they will continually BE SHAMED. Don't believe that others are supportive of what they are doing...I had fantasies of fencing them in her house so they wouldn't want to come out. This turned out to be truer than I believed at the time. They took back roads and snuck around town while I took the main roads and let everybody know what my H was doing...
A few more thoughts....
LET YOUR WAYWARD SPOUSE GO....FOCUS ON YOURSELF...I really got this after reading LOVE MUST BE TOUGH by DOBSON although this was pounded into me by others...I came to accept that there was no amount of crying, pleading, explaining, questioning or PLAN Aing that I could do to make my H stop his A..He had to eventually choose to break up with her on his own...He had to be ready...
HE HAD TO HIT HIS BOTTOM This was the reason for the false recoveries..He came back before he was ready..He came back before he had scraped the very bottom of the barrel..He had to come face to face with all that he was losing..He had to come face to face with who the OW REALLY WAS... This is what can happen in PLAN B...
Another one of my thoughts:
When you fail or make a mistake, get right back up on the horse...get back into the battle....
I wanted to share this morning because I am coming to a place of putting a lot of this behind me. It is painful to recall those events now (my body began to shake as I typed it) and I really don't have to play that out again much anymore.
My H is genuinely dear to me now. I have had the sweetest and most wonderful weekend with him. He has definitely chosen me. He has filled my life with such pleasant memories over the past two years that, even if something else happens, I feel blessed for having had this special time with him.
In the midst of this weekend, I've been lurking and reading about your trials. These are thoughts that I want to share with you before I get to the point of FORGETTING THE TRAUMAS THAT I EXPERIENCED... My FWH is wiping the pain away...Most importantly, I am becoming STRONG enough in my PERSONAL RECOVERY to not allow those past traumas and memories to intrude and rob me of EXPERIENCING TRUE JOY in my life.
DO NOT GIVE UP HOPE I held on to HOPE AND FAITH for dear life. This was the main thing that kept me going. If not hope for your marriage, maintain hope and faith in your spirit, in your soul, for your own well-being. I turned to MY GOD, to MY PERSONAL SAVIOUR in the midnight hours and constantly and regularly received PERSONAL TOUCHES and MESSAGES from the HOLY SPIRIT. Even if you do not share my religious beliefs, do whatever it takes to remain focused on the LIGHT and not the DARK....DO NOT LET ANYONE ROB YOU OF YOUR HOPE AND FAITH...that is the GOAL OF THE ENEMY....
VIEW THIS AS A SERIES OF BATTLES See yourself as a soldier in a war..a fight for yourself..a fight for your marriage..a fight against the forces of evil...Given your hope and faith (discussed above), BELIEVE that you will be victorious and conquer the ENEMY..ONE BATTLE AT A TIME....
VIEW YOUR WS AS BEING DRUG-ADDICTED My FWH was just as bad, lost,desperate, craved, nasty, smelly as any meth or cocaine addict...This is not a contest that anyone wants to win. But, I bet that I can top any story that the WSes are discussing on the boards lately... At some point in all of this, my FWH was emotionally abusive, at times physically abusive, abandoned me, abandoned his children...all of the above and worse than I can possibly believe at this point...he seemed POSSESSED and EVIL....A MONSTER, at times.. Now I look at him after FULL WITHDRAWAL and his OWN INSISTENCE on USING EXTREME PRECAUTIONS and I can't BELIEVE WHAT I SEE... He is truly the SWEETEST, KINDEST PERSON to me.. For two full years, I have waited for that MONSTER to return.. Early on, their were daily glimpses but as each day goes by he comes closer and closer to being his former self or even better....HE HAS DEFINITELY CHANGED...
LEARN STRATEGIES TO INSULATE YOURSELF FROM THE MONSTER WHO IS NOT REALLY YOUR SPOUSE It's like I learned to enclose myself in a cocoon that he could not penetrate. I would come on here to vent. I would retreat to the bathroom. I would go on LONG DRIVES in my car. It was important not to be swept up into HIS EVILNESS..INTO HIS CRAZY WORLD...That would have legitimized his craziness.. Of course, the eventual PLAN B is perfect sanctuary....
CONTINUE TO EXPOSE... This so freeing..Tell everybody you know. You are in the RIGHT. He is in the WRONG. This is an essential battle strategy. This will get back to one of them and they will continually BE SHAMED. Don't believe that others are supportive of what they are doing...I had fantasies of fencing them in her house so they wouldn't want to come out. This turned out to be truer than I believed at the time. They took back roads and snuck around town while I took the main roads and let everybody know what my H was doing...
A few more thoughts....
LET YOUR WAYWARD SPOUSE GO....FOCUS ON YOURSELF...I really got this after reading LOVE MUST BE TOUGH by DOBSON although this was pounded into me by others...I came to accept that there was no amount of crying, pleading, explaining, questioning or PLAN Aing that I could do to make my H stop his A..He had to eventually choose to break up with her on his own...He had to be ready...
HE HAD TO HIT HIS BOTTOM This was the reason for the false recoveries..He came back before he was ready..He came back before he had scraped the very bottom of the barrel..He had to come face to face with all that he was losing..He had to come face to face with who the OW REALLY WAS... This is what can happen in PLAN B...
Another one of my thoughts:
When you fail or make a mistake, get right back up on the horse...get back into the battle....
Just be Still .... by Arkie - 05/01/07 05:10 PM
Some of the most painful posts to read here ....is the confusion and turmoil of betrayed spouses....
those post D-day days weeks and sadly months in which so many things are left unanswered, unaddressed and emtpy...
be still.....
In our turmoil and chaos and the gnawing need to fix and address.....bs bring into their hearts more pain and crisis....
be still...
There was once a saying I read somewhere that went something like to really ever understand someone else we must crawl inside of them and feel the gentle beat of their heart....
easier probably for a BS to move a mountain than to grasp and work from that realm....
but be still...
each moment of stillness you can buy grab or gobble is a moment in which you are free from the pain and free from the fear..
fear of doing the wrong thing
fear of saying the wrong thing...
the goal is not marriage rebuilding at any cost...
the goal is guiding yourself to a place of stillness...no matter the outcome....
the anatomy of a WS is that they changed and molded their own thought processes so that they could engage in a affair....
they did this....
they did this....over time and in a way in which they can barely see the reality of this...but they did do it...
be still
it takes time.....
too many posts are from BS with unrealistic EXPECTATIONS which will harm you...
it is unrealistic to think that the thought processes needed to engage in such vile actions....vanishes over night
working through affair issues takes time...gobs and gobs of it...
and if you find yourself standing in a place of demanding change and specified responses, introspection, apologies, and instant change...
be still
for you are causing more grief that you need to burdon....
they did this...and they must undo this...
will they?
the truth is we don't know..
but to ever be a whole person again they darn well better...otherwise they carry their chaos on and on..and in the end no BS needs to burdon that.....
WS, though hard to see when they have used you as a weapon are very very damaged inside.....
they can not face that damage...and since that damage is YOU the BS...they often can not face you..
so they continue to waffle and wallow in the path that brought them to this place...
the way of rationalizing and justifying downright no two ways about it dispicable behavior acts....
force them to the face and process at once..
they will withdrawal
they will deny
they will retaliate
or even worse they will self destruct themselves....
be still....
don't force responses and actions and answers...be still and know that their non-responses , non actions and non answers ARE their answers....and you can hold them accountable to that
be still
and then make your moves....
ARK^^
those post D-day days weeks and sadly months in which so many things are left unanswered, unaddressed and emtpy...
be still.....
In our turmoil and chaos and the gnawing need to fix and address.....bs bring into their hearts more pain and crisis....
be still...
There was once a saying I read somewhere that went something like to really ever understand someone else we must crawl inside of them and feel the gentle beat of their heart....
easier probably for a BS to move a mountain than to grasp and work from that realm....
but be still...
each moment of stillness you can buy grab or gobble is a moment in which you are free from the pain and free from the fear..
fear of doing the wrong thing
fear of saying the wrong thing...
the goal is not marriage rebuilding at any cost...
the goal is guiding yourself to a place of stillness...no matter the outcome....
the anatomy of a WS is that they changed and molded their own thought processes so that they could engage in a affair....
they did this....
they did this....over time and in a way in which they can barely see the reality of this...but they did do it...
be still
it takes time.....
too many posts are from BS with unrealistic EXPECTATIONS which will harm you...
it is unrealistic to think that the thought processes needed to engage in such vile actions....vanishes over night
working through affair issues takes time...gobs and gobs of it...
and if you find yourself standing in a place of demanding change and specified responses, introspection, apologies, and instant change...
be still
for you are causing more grief that you need to burdon....
they did this...and they must undo this...
will they?
the truth is we don't know..
but to ever be a whole person again they darn well better...otherwise they carry their chaos on and on..and in the end no BS needs to burdon that.....
WS, though hard to see when they have used you as a weapon are very very damaged inside.....
they can not face that damage...and since that damage is YOU the BS...they often can not face you..
so they continue to waffle and wallow in the path that brought them to this place...
the way of rationalizing and justifying downright no two ways about it dispicable behavior acts....
force them to the face and process at once..
they will withdrawal
they will deny
they will retaliate
or even worse they will self destruct themselves....
be still....
don't force responses and actions and answers...be still and know that their non-responses , non actions and non answers ARE their answers....and you can hold them accountable to that
be still
and then make your moves....
ARK^^
Plan A will not work if ..... - 05/10/07 03:30 PM
Plan A will not work for you if you go in to it with
ANY EXPECTATIONS
that you
will
should
could
get YOUR own EN's met....
that's is the formula for failure...
set up to fail by the BS....
I have said it a hundred times...
PLAN A must have a time frame for ending BEFORE it begins....
so that the person entering it...realizes that they will be giving and doing things that go against...
societies advice...drop em dump em slam em....
friends and family who love you and CAN NOT stand to see you hurt.....
and even your gut instincts....IT'S NOT FAIR... that I the BS do this when the WS doessn't deserve it...
again and again and again...
the deep seeded rationalization it takes for a person to engage in an affair...
is the complete compartimentalization of reality
and has been building in their thought long before the affair 'officially began"
you must
must
must...
be willing to accept that the BS has been mentally villified to
excuse
justify
and
rationalize affair actions.......
PLAN A is allll about and in my opinion....
opening up communication
in tiny tiny avenues
always giving the WS exactly what they don't EXPECT
this is NOT door matt behavior....but like PEP once BRILLIANTLY concluded...
a WELCOME HOME MATT
love that cerebral picture....
you know what exactly feeds in to the WS justification...
behaving in a way that gives them the weapon to aim at you...
PLAN A is not grandiose fix it now
PLAN A is not about addressing deep marital issues....
that is also set up to fail as the WS is in total
justification mode....
PLAN A is NOT long drawn out talks that go way in to the night.....
When you pick your end date...the FIRST step in plan A....
then you build a road map...of all the things you can do that get the WS attention...
small verbal interchanges
small gestures....
WS spouses are drawn to say that even when the affair relationship is failing.....
that there is too much damage done already to fix the marriage....
there is great fear in facing their actions.....
and forcing them to do so when they are in this mode is also setting up for failure...
push for the apologies...and woe to you who get it without true meaning because you will not have true remorse...
but remorse that will again become the weapon....
PLAN A is full of hope and NOT about fixing things in the marriage in that the WS needs to address...
THAT is what recovery is for...
PLAN A is never ever about getting a committment from the WS to do something....
again hand the weapon
you will hear...
you made me
you forced me
you controlled me....
PLAN A is about setting your boundaries....that are full of actions for the BS and NONE for the WS
in a good plan A you can say...
I didn't make you choose anything...
I just refuse to be part of a triangle...period...
you my dear WS will make your own choice as well....
and then add....
with a warm smile...
remember my love....
doing nothing is a choice as well......
People that do plan A well find great freedom and creativity in the doing and giving and meeting of ENs...
people that expect their needs to be met...
flounder and get crushed....
please please please use the board here to ground yourself in plan A....
digging deep for its short term actions........of great sacrifice.......knowing the payoff is down the line.....
NOT while in plan A....
never in plan A....
I could go on and on and on about this......
If you don't understand this...use this board....
ARK
ANY EXPECTATIONS
that you
will
should
could
get YOUR own EN's met....
that's is the formula for failure...
set up to fail by the BS....
I have said it a hundred times...
PLAN A must have a time frame for ending BEFORE it begins....
so that the person entering it...realizes that they will be giving and doing things that go against...
societies advice...drop em dump em slam em....
friends and family who love you and CAN NOT stand to see you hurt.....
and even your gut instincts....IT'S NOT FAIR... that I the BS do this when the WS doessn't deserve it...
again and again and again...
the deep seeded rationalization it takes for a person to engage in an affair...
is the complete compartimentalization of reality
and has been building in their thought long before the affair 'officially began"
you must
must
must...
be willing to accept that the BS has been mentally villified to
excuse
justify
and
rationalize affair actions.......
PLAN A is allll about and in my opinion....
opening up communication
in tiny tiny avenues
always giving the WS exactly what they don't EXPECT
this is NOT door matt behavior....but like PEP once BRILLIANTLY concluded...
a WELCOME HOME MATT
love that cerebral picture....
you know what exactly feeds in to the WS justification...
behaving in a way that gives them the weapon to aim at you...
PLAN A is not grandiose fix it now
PLAN A is not about addressing deep marital issues....
that is also set up to fail as the WS is in total
justification mode....
PLAN A is NOT long drawn out talks that go way in to the night.....
When you pick your end date...the FIRST step in plan A....
then you build a road map...of all the things you can do that get the WS attention...
small verbal interchanges
small gestures....
WS spouses are drawn to say that even when the affair relationship is failing.....
that there is too much damage done already to fix the marriage....
there is great fear in facing their actions.....
and forcing them to do so when they are in this mode is also setting up for failure...
push for the apologies...and woe to you who get it without true meaning because you will not have true remorse...
but remorse that will again become the weapon....
PLAN A is full of hope and NOT about fixing things in the marriage in that the WS needs to address...
THAT is what recovery is for...
PLAN A is never ever about getting a committment from the WS to do something....
again hand the weapon
you will hear...
you made me
you forced me
you controlled me....
PLAN A is about setting your boundaries....that are full of actions for the BS and NONE for the WS
in a good plan A you can say...
I didn't make you choose anything...
I just refuse to be part of a triangle...period...
you my dear WS will make your own choice as well....
and then add....
with a warm smile...
remember my love....
doing nothing is a choice as well......
People that do plan A well find great freedom and creativity in the doing and giving and meeting of ENs...
people that expect their needs to be met...
flounder and get crushed....
please please please use the board here to ground yourself in plan A....
digging deep for its short term actions........of great sacrifice.......knowing the payoff is down the line.....
NOT while in plan A....
never in plan A....
I could go on and on and on about this......
If you don't understand this...use this board....
ARK
"Sorry is not enough" ... by TopRope - 05/15/07 05:30 AM
This touches on some of the issues that are currently affecting some of our community.
(Decided to post here on Gen. as well, since many never leave one forum or another).
Getting Help: Rebuilding Trust After Infidelity
Why saying "I'm Sorry" is NOT Enough.
Your spouse is devastated to learn that you have been unfaithful, but you are determined to save your marriage. You’ve apologized profusely.
You take full responsibility for your actions.
You promise that it will never happen again.
And your spouse forgives you. ( Or at least begins too).
These steps, while necessary, Are Not Enough .
Many couples make the mistake of believing that after the initial shock, hurt and anger over an affair has worn off, they can simply “pick up the pieces” and get on with their lives.
Only later do they discover that lingering feelings of betrayal and mistrust slowly - but surely - destroy their relationship.
If you sincerely want to regain the trust and intimacy that you and your spouse once had, you must follow certain steps.
They are not always easy, and they don’t guarantee that your marriage will be saved.
But these steps can go a long way in healing the hurt the affair has caused, and putting your relationship on the right path.
1). Be completely honest with your spouse from now on.
You must be truthful and open about anything your spouse has a reasonable right to know.
This includes your work schedule, your activities with friends, your spending habits, and so on.
Of course, if you had followed this step all along, the affair probably would not have occurred.
You might be tempted to think that telling a “white lie” now and then is harmless, especially if it has nothing to do with being unfaithful.
But your spouse is more likely Now to detect Any Signs of deception or evasiveness on your part.
And When you get caught in a lie, No Matter How Trivial , your spouse will wonder What Else you may be lying about.
2 . Fully Answer "whatever" questions your spouse has about the affair.
Yes, this will be uncomfortable and embarrassing.
It’s normal for you to want to put the affair in the past and “move on.”
Besides, you think, your spouse is already hurt and angry. Wouldn’t learning all the details make those feelings even worse?
Perhaps.
But unanswered questions and doubts can linger on for years, making it very difficult for your spouse to truly forgive you and trust you again.
And it is Far Better that your spouse get the information From YOU , rather than hear it from someone else or Find out some other way.
3 . Make Amends to your spouse.
This Crucial Step is Overlooked far too often .
Maybe you think that merely saying “I’m sorry” is sufficient.
Or you believe that nothing, really , can make up for the hurt you have caused.
But that is NO Reason Not To Try.
The best way to make amends is simply to ask your spouse what you can to make it up to him or her. Ideally, it will be something that reaffirms your love and brings the two of you closer together.
Perhaps it will something that your spouse has always wanted from you - being a better listener, for example - but that you somehow failed to provide.
The Purpose of making Amends Is NOT to Punish you for your misdeeds.
However, if making amends requires extra effort or sacrifice on your part, this may cause you to think twice before being unfaithful again.
4 . End all contact with your ex-lover.
You might protest that this step is unreasonable, especially if you see your ex-lover at work or some other place where running into each other is unavoidable.
However, the temptation to resume the affair may prove too strong, no matter how well-intentioned you are. Furthermore, your spouse will NEVER be Comfortable knowing that your ex is still in the picture.
So, do Whatever it Takes to avoid that person, even if that means Changing your job or Moving to a new area.
Recovering from an affair takes commitment and effort by both spouses.
Following these steps will help make that recovery more lasting and meaningful.
(Decided to post here on Gen. as well, since many never leave one forum or another).
Getting Help: Rebuilding Trust After Infidelity
Why saying "I'm Sorry" is NOT Enough.
Your spouse is devastated to learn that you have been unfaithful, but you are determined to save your marriage. You’ve apologized profusely.
You take full responsibility for your actions.
You promise that it will never happen again.
And your spouse forgives you. ( Or at least begins too).
These steps, while necessary, Are Not Enough .
Many couples make the mistake of believing that after the initial shock, hurt and anger over an affair has worn off, they can simply “pick up the pieces” and get on with their lives.
Only later do they discover that lingering feelings of betrayal and mistrust slowly - but surely - destroy their relationship.
If you sincerely want to regain the trust and intimacy that you and your spouse once had, you must follow certain steps.
They are not always easy, and they don’t guarantee that your marriage will be saved.
But these steps can go a long way in healing the hurt the affair has caused, and putting your relationship on the right path.
1). Be completely honest with your spouse from now on.
You must be truthful and open about anything your spouse has a reasonable right to know.
This includes your work schedule, your activities with friends, your spending habits, and so on.
Of course, if you had followed this step all along, the affair probably would not have occurred.
You might be tempted to think that telling a “white lie” now and then is harmless, especially if it has nothing to do with being unfaithful.
But your spouse is more likely Now to detect Any Signs of deception or evasiveness on your part.
And When you get caught in a lie, No Matter How Trivial , your spouse will wonder What Else you may be lying about.
2 . Fully Answer "whatever" questions your spouse has about the affair.
Yes, this will be uncomfortable and embarrassing.
It’s normal for you to want to put the affair in the past and “move on.”
Besides, you think, your spouse is already hurt and angry. Wouldn’t learning all the details make those feelings even worse?
Perhaps.
But unanswered questions and doubts can linger on for years, making it very difficult for your spouse to truly forgive you and trust you again.
And it is Far Better that your spouse get the information From YOU , rather than hear it from someone else or Find out some other way.
3 . Make Amends to your spouse.
This Crucial Step is Overlooked far too often .
Maybe you think that merely saying “I’m sorry” is sufficient.
Or you believe that nothing, really , can make up for the hurt you have caused.
But that is NO Reason Not To Try.
The best way to make amends is simply to ask your spouse what you can to make it up to him or her. Ideally, it will be something that reaffirms your love and brings the two of you closer together.
Perhaps it will something that your spouse has always wanted from you - being a better listener, for example - but that you somehow failed to provide.
The Purpose of making Amends Is NOT to Punish you for your misdeeds.
However, if making amends requires extra effort or sacrifice on your part, this may cause you to think twice before being unfaithful again.
4 . End all contact with your ex-lover.
You might protest that this step is unreasonable, especially if you see your ex-lover at work or some other place where running into each other is unavoidable.
However, the temptation to resume the affair may prove too strong, no matter how well-intentioned you are. Furthermore, your spouse will NEVER be Comfortable knowing that your ex is still in the picture.
So, do Whatever it Takes to avoid that person, even if that means Changing your job or Moving to a new area.
Recovering from an affair takes commitment and effort by both spouses.
Following these steps will help make that recovery more lasting and meaningful.
Weaver wields a 2X4 - 05/15/07 08:44 PM
This board is full of people faced with the complete and utter devestation of their family and of the very core of their being.
They are being forced to make decisions while under extreme duress such as:
Do I go after the throat of the person I love more than life in court?
Do I wrench my children away from the parent they love so much in order to ensure that they are not subject to scumbag OM or OW?
Do I fight for custody, knowing my children will not understand why I must do this?
Is it in their best interest to fight for full custody? Will I hurt them worse?
Do I swallow my pride and take back the WS who ripped out our hearts and laughed the whole time, so my children are not subjected to what I am about to subject them to?
Do I financially ruin this person I loved so much and bore/fathered my children, to protect us?
Do I force myself to stop loving this person and move on with my life, knowing that they are destroying themselves and once I do I won't turn back.
Can you imagine having to make those kinds of decisions? Those going through your already over-loaded mind that is not quite functioning properly because you haven't slept or ate in weeks?
And then once the WS has a change of heart, the BS must stuff it all and heal the best way he can while
NEVER offending in anyway the WS, or the OM/OP?
You read this stuff all day long?
I am asking you, WHAT DIFFERENCE does it make what we say to an active WS? WHO GIVES A SH*T? If they are close to repentence, believe me they will be on their knees in shame, not stirring the pot.
If they come here while they are active and expect to get treated with respect, then they have more problems going on then just the fog.
I will not treat an ACTIVE WS the way I will treat others.
And if I did, how would that help to change their mindset?
If they get hit with both barrels here, it is just all that much sooner that the fog lifts.
It is just all that much easier that the BS has it during his Plan A.
The BS can't say what we can.
They are being forced to make decisions while under extreme duress such as:
Do I go after the throat of the person I love more than life in court?
Do I wrench my children away from the parent they love so much in order to ensure that they are not subject to scumbag OM or OW?
Do I fight for custody, knowing my children will not understand why I must do this?
Is it in their best interest to fight for full custody? Will I hurt them worse?
Do I swallow my pride and take back the WS who ripped out our hearts and laughed the whole time, so my children are not subjected to what I am about to subject them to?
Do I financially ruin this person I loved so much and bore/fathered my children, to protect us?
Do I force myself to stop loving this person and move on with my life, knowing that they are destroying themselves and once I do I won't turn back.
Can you imagine having to make those kinds of decisions? Those going through your already over-loaded mind that is not quite functioning properly because you haven't slept or ate in weeks?
And then once the WS has a change of heart, the BS must stuff it all and heal the best way he can while
NEVER offending in anyway the WS, or the OM/OP?
You read this stuff all day long?
I am asking you, WHAT DIFFERENCE does it make what we say to an active WS? WHO GIVES A SH*T? If they are close to repentence, believe me they will be on their knees in shame, not stirring the pot.
If they come here while they are active and expect to get treated with respect, then they have more problems going on then just the fog.
I will not treat an ACTIVE WS the way I will treat others.
And if I did, how would that help to change their mindset?
If they get hit with both barrels here, it is just all that much sooner that the fog lifts.
It is just all that much easier that the BS has it during his Plan A.
The BS can't say what we can.
Mortarman on Plan B as a door - 05/18/07 04:56 PM
Eph,
What is your plan? What is it you are doing to move this all forward?
I read the exchange with your wife. Typical!! Same stuff my wife said...over and over! It is exchanges such as these that forced me into Plan B!
You see, there is only ONE reason why she said the things she said. It is because she NEEDS you to create conflict. There is something going on with her, in her life, that you dont know right now. Maybe it is the OM pressuring her. Maybe it is her pressuring the OM to meet needs he cant/wont. But something isnt right there!!
How do I know? Well, first...I have been there. And now that my wife and I have talked, I know that things werent right during the times she engaged me as your wife has here. The second reason I know is this fact: people dont argue about and dont get angry about things that they dont care about!! If you wife was indeed happy and accepting of where things are going, then she wouldnt have even engaged you. Instead, all of her responses to you would have been "whatever."
Jim was right above. She drew you into conflict, so she could feel angry at you, so she could say her justifications and try to make HERSELF believe them. Then, she could try to feel justified as she headed back to the life she is trying to build.
But the funny thing is...deep down, she knows it is a lie. She knows she is living a lie. So, she wants you to help her change the lie...so that maybe it will work. Statements such as "mom and dad being happy and co-parenting together in divorce" is a testimony to this. She wants what cant happen...and she knows it! So, she wants YOUR help!
I forsee it getting harder for you to Plan A from here on out. I forsee that you will have a hard time not educating her. And the more that you have a hard time, the harder she will push!
Your response to her diatribe should have been this..."Honey, we both know what has really gone on here. We both know that we love each other. I do not wish to engage in a conversation such as this. I have to go now. When you are ready to talk about building a marriage that we both deserve, then I am here."
And then...shut up! Dont answer her responses! Dont say "oh, and one last thing..." Just be quiet.
As I said, I dont think you can do much more with your Plan A. I agree with Mr. W. If I were you, I would get another session with Steve Harley just to confirm this analysis.
If I were you, I would get my Plan B written out. Get it together and planned out. Get to understand what goes on in Plan B. Get the avenues of co-parenting decided, so you two do not have to interact more than is necessary. Plan out what you wil do with your time and how you will begin to move your life forward.
Plan B is a door. It is a door out of the mess...and away from the adultery and pain. It is a door into a new life. One that the BS controls. Now, going thru that Plan B door may mean that your marriage is over. Or, as in my case, it may mean that your wife will meet you on the other side of that door. But that door forever changes the dynamic of your life.
As I said, I think you have done a pretty good Plan A. I think she has seen it. I KNOW she has seen it. In her statements, she repeatedly refers to your changes. Sure, she calls them "lies." She has to call them lies, because if she were to accept them as truth, then she would also have to re-evaluate her position and what she is doing. And she isnt ready to do that yet. Instead, she sees your changes...but calls them lies.
So, since she has seen them...in a Plan B environment, she can no longer tell herself that they are lies. She just cant. In the meantime, the OM is woefully lacking in the ability to meet the needs you were meeting. Your wife will begin to make selfish demands of him...and he wont be able to fulfill them. And there will be strife. In the meantime, Eph is out of the middle of that. He is off the rollercoaster. He is safe and sound, sipping a tall one. And working on improving his life, and the life of his kids. He is no longer in the drama.
And in Plan B, your wife has to confront her lies to herself. She has to confront why she has this feeling to call you...to get you to meet some of the needs she is no longer getting met. At first, she will just try to get angry and force you out of your Plan B. But when that doesnt work, she will try to sweet talk you out of it. And when that doesnt work, then realization is finally available to her.
And then she walks in with tears of repentence. Then she sees you for who you are.
Eph, that exchange with your wife tells me that it is about time to make the jump. To shut down things with her and begin healing your wounds.
Please consider this. We can help you get the plan together. We can help you understand the possible reactions of your wife.
Please think on this.
What is your plan? What is it you are doing to move this all forward?
I read the exchange with your wife. Typical!! Same stuff my wife said...over and over! It is exchanges such as these that forced me into Plan B!
You see, there is only ONE reason why she said the things she said. It is because she NEEDS you to create conflict. There is something going on with her, in her life, that you dont know right now. Maybe it is the OM pressuring her. Maybe it is her pressuring the OM to meet needs he cant/wont. But something isnt right there!!
How do I know? Well, first...I have been there. And now that my wife and I have talked, I know that things werent right during the times she engaged me as your wife has here. The second reason I know is this fact: people dont argue about and dont get angry about things that they dont care about!! If you wife was indeed happy and accepting of where things are going, then she wouldnt have even engaged you. Instead, all of her responses to you would have been "whatever."
Jim was right above. She drew you into conflict, so she could feel angry at you, so she could say her justifications and try to make HERSELF believe them. Then, she could try to feel justified as she headed back to the life she is trying to build.
But the funny thing is...deep down, she knows it is a lie. She knows she is living a lie. So, she wants you to help her change the lie...so that maybe it will work. Statements such as "mom and dad being happy and co-parenting together in divorce" is a testimony to this. She wants what cant happen...and she knows it! So, she wants YOUR help!
I forsee it getting harder for you to Plan A from here on out. I forsee that you will have a hard time not educating her. And the more that you have a hard time, the harder she will push!
Your response to her diatribe should have been this..."Honey, we both know what has really gone on here. We both know that we love each other. I do not wish to engage in a conversation such as this. I have to go now. When you are ready to talk about building a marriage that we both deserve, then I am here."
And then...shut up! Dont answer her responses! Dont say "oh, and one last thing..." Just be quiet.
As I said, I dont think you can do much more with your Plan A. I agree with Mr. W. If I were you, I would get another session with Steve Harley just to confirm this analysis.
If I were you, I would get my Plan B written out. Get it together and planned out. Get to understand what goes on in Plan B. Get the avenues of co-parenting decided, so you two do not have to interact more than is necessary. Plan out what you wil do with your time and how you will begin to move your life forward.
Plan B is a door. It is a door out of the mess...and away from the adultery and pain. It is a door into a new life. One that the BS controls. Now, going thru that Plan B door may mean that your marriage is over. Or, as in my case, it may mean that your wife will meet you on the other side of that door. But that door forever changes the dynamic of your life.
As I said, I think you have done a pretty good Plan A. I think she has seen it. I KNOW she has seen it. In her statements, she repeatedly refers to your changes. Sure, she calls them "lies." She has to call them lies, because if she were to accept them as truth, then she would also have to re-evaluate her position and what she is doing. And she isnt ready to do that yet. Instead, she sees your changes...but calls them lies.
So, since she has seen them...in a Plan B environment, she can no longer tell herself that they are lies. She just cant. In the meantime, the OM is woefully lacking in the ability to meet the needs you were meeting. Your wife will begin to make selfish demands of him...and he wont be able to fulfill them. And there will be strife. In the meantime, Eph is out of the middle of that. He is off the rollercoaster. He is safe and sound, sipping a tall one. And working on improving his life, and the life of his kids. He is no longer in the drama.
And in Plan B, your wife has to confront her lies to herself. She has to confront why she has this feeling to call you...to get you to meet some of the needs she is no longer getting met. At first, she will just try to get angry and force you out of your Plan B. But when that doesnt work, she will try to sweet talk you out of it. And when that doesnt work, then realization is finally available to her.
And then she walks in with tears of repentence. Then she sees you for who you are.
Eph, that exchange with your wife tells me that it is about time to make the jump. To shut down things with her and begin healing your wounds.
Please consider this. We can help you get the plan together. We can help you understand the possible reactions of your wife.
Please think on this.
PrincessMeggy explains liarrhea - 05/20/07 10:32 PM
All WS suffer from the same ailment: liarrhea
Main Entry: li·ar·rhea
Function: noun
1 : abnormally frequent verbal evacuations of untruths
Main Entry: li·ar·rhea
Function: noun
1 : abnormally frequent verbal evacuations of untruths
Re: PrincessMeggy explains liarrhea - 05/24/07 01:54 AM
Great compilation. Good for anyone to read through, no matter where they are.
Liarrhea.... LMAO!
Liarrhea.... LMAO!
Re: PrincessMeggy explains liarrhea - 05/24/07 06:59 PM
Pep,
I think I read that the ailment is related to chronic cranial rectumitus.
I hear that the remedy for the disease may be as simple as removing their head from their a$$.
Of course a lot of research will be required before the FDA will approve the surgical techniques required for such a delicate operation.
I don't see the insurance industry getting on board any time soon, they never support experimental treatments.
I'm trying to remember the technique. It has something to do with a heavy right foot in a steel-toed work boot...
Something about dimensioned lumber was in there as I recall...
Mark
I think I read that the ailment is related to chronic cranial rectumitus.
I hear that the remedy for the disease may be as simple as removing their head from their a$$.
Of course a lot of research will be required before the FDA will approve the surgical techniques required for such a delicate operation.
I don't see the insurance industry getting on board any time soon, they never support experimental treatments.
I'm trying to remember the technique. It has something to do with a heavy right foot in a steel-toed work boot...
Something about dimensioned lumber was in there as I recall...
Mark
Mel's ... "Men don't move out" ... - 06/03/07 02:36 AM
I think this deserves its own thread since it seems to be a fairly common problem….for MEN. About once a month a newcomer will show up here who has left his own home at the behest of a wayward wife in an active affair. She asks him to leave so she can “have space” and “think about the marriage.” The poor devastated soul usually believes that appeasing her will save his marriage. It is the EXACT OPPOSITE. She is asking him to move out so she can carry on her affair without his interference.
Moving out only serves to ENABLE the affair at the expense of his own marriage and children’s security. The WW is now free to carry on her affair from the safety and comfort of her own home. It is not uncommon for her to actually INVITE the OM into the home and introduce him to the children.
She often has fantasies of replacing you with the OM. Of course, the BS is still paying the mortgage so he is, in effect, not only enabling the affair but FINANCING it. Otherwise known as the ContributeToYourOwnDemise Program.
Some reasons why moving out is dangerous:
1. It enables the affair
2. It is viewed as abandonment by many courts
3. Separation INCREASES the risk of divorce and impedes chances of recovery [you can’t recover if you aren’t there!]
4. Many men – on this very forum – have had to get COURT ORDERS just to get back into their own homes
5. Children are exposed to affair partner, which is morally confusing and increases the odds they will be sexually molested/abuse
6. It is DEVASTATING to children! Your children need you now more than ever. You are ALL THEY HAVE since their mother’s brain has been abducted by aliens.
In short, moving out is always a huge mistake unless it is to effect Plan B.
I am always baffled about why men will do this, because a woman would never consider sacrificing her own home and her children because her husband was in an affair and wanted some “space.” The only way I would leave is if my husband’s pistol was BIGGER than mine! Even at that, I am a better shot than him, so that might not even do it. It might take a SWAT TEAM!
If your wayward wife asks you to move out so she can “have space,” suggest she either go in the bathroom and shut the door or be a gentleman and clean out a corner in your garage for her. But, whatever you do, DON’T LEAVE YOUR HOME, GUYS!!
If you have fallen for this manipulation tactic and left your home, don’t despair. The mistake is usually easily corrected by packing your bag and GOING HOME NOW. No warning, no nothing. Just get in the car and go home and move right back into your OWN BED. When you walk in simply say “HI HONEY, I AM HOME!!” and give her a smile and a peck on the cheek. If she objects tell her you live there and intend to stay. SMILE.
Moving out only serves to ENABLE the affair at the expense of his own marriage and children’s security. The WW is now free to carry on her affair from the safety and comfort of her own home. It is not uncommon for her to actually INVITE the OM into the home and introduce him to the children.
She often has fantasies of replacing you with the OM. Of course, the BS is still paying the mortgage so he is, in effect, not only enabling the affair but FINANCING it. Otherwise known as the ContributeToYourOwnDemise Program.
Some reasons why moving out is dangerous:
1. It enables the affair
2. It is viewed as abandonment by many courts
3. Separation INCREASES the risk of divorce and impedes chances of recovery [you can’t recover if you aren’t there!]
4. Many men – on this very forum – have had to get COURT ORDERS just to get back into their own homes
5. Children are exposed to affair partner, which is morally confusing and increases the odds they will be sexually molested/abuse
6. It is DEVASTATING to children! Your children need you now more than ever. You are ALL THEY HAVE since their mother’s brain has been abducted by aliens.
In short, moving out is always a huge mistake unless it is to effect Plan B.
I am always baffled about why men will do this, because a woman would never consider sacrificing her own home and her children because her husband was in an affair and wanted some “space.” The only way I would leave is if my husband’s pistol was BIGGER than mine! Even at that, I am a better shot than him, so that might not even do it. It might take a SWAT TEAM!
If your wayward wife asks you to move out so she can “have space,” suggest she either go in the bathroom and shut the door or be a gentleman and clean out a corner in your garage for her. But, whatever you do, DON’T LEAVE YOUR HOME, GUYS!!
If you have fallen for this manipulation tactic and left your home, don’t despair. The mistake is usually easily corrected by packing your bag and GOING HOME NOW. No warning, no nothing. Just get in the car and go home and move right back into your OWN BED. When you walk in simply say “HI HONEY, I AM HOME!!” and give her a smile and a peck on the cheek. If she objects tell her you live there and intend to stay. SMILE.
JustKim talks about Harley's RECOVERY comment: *primary reason* for an affair - 06/03/07 03:02 PM
Ive read so many posts detailing how hard it is to recover. I myself feel the same. My M is so much better than it ever was, my H tries very hard and I have so much to be thankful for.
Ive asked myself so many times why I would still be struggling so badly.
Yesterday, I had my first session w Steve Harley. He explained it to me this way
"As long as you believe that your H had an affair because his emotional needs were not being met (as a *primary* reason) you will be meeting his emotional needs out of fear, there will always be a gun held to your head. Your H had an affair because he failed to protect HIMSELF from his own vulnerabilities, period. He is accountable and responsible for all"
He then went on to explain that perhaps my H has been telling me that "it wont happen again, that I am safe, etc..." BUT that it will likely have little reassuring effect because he is saying things that I believed were *always true*.
He said that until my H proves to me that HE gets it, that HE takes responsibility fully for what happened ( the A, not the downslide of our marriage) that you cannot heal.
I wonder how many of us BS that are struggling have spouses that have come to us and said "I did this to you. I failed us. I failed to protect the safety of our M. I will keep us safe from now on, you no longer have to be the gatekeeper." I wonder if they did, how many of us would still be struggling?
Steve likens this emotional injury to a horrific car crash. If we had visible physical wounds that mirrored the emotional trauma we have sustained there would be a plan to heal. First, you do A. then B. then C. and so on.
If our spouses are unable to do these things, we will not heal properly and at best, will limp along for the rest of our time here on Earth.
Ive asked myself so many times why I would still be struggling so badly.
Yesterday, I had my first session w Steve Harley. He explained it to me this way
"As long as you believe that your H had an affair because his emotional needs were not being met (as a *primary* reason) you will be meeting his emotional needs out of fear, there will always be a gun held to your head. Your H had an affair because he failed to protect HIMSELF from his own vulnerabilities, period. He is accountable and responsible for all"
He then went on to explain that perhaps my H has been telling me that "it wont happen again, that I am safe, etc..." BUT that it will likely have little reassuring effect because he is saying things that I believed were *always true*.
He said that until my H proves to me that HE gets it, that HE takes responsibility fully for what happened ( the A, not the downslide of our marriage) that you cannot heal.
I wonder how many of us BS that are struggling have spouses that have come to us and said "I did this to you. I failed us. I failed to protect the safety of our M. I will keep us safe from now on, you no longer have to be the gatekeeper." I wonder if they did, how many of us would still be struggling?
Steve likens this emotional injury to a horrific car crash. If we had visible physical wounds that mirrored the emotional trauma we have sustained there would be a plan to heal. First, you do A. then B. then C. and so on.
If our spouses are unable to do these things, we will not heal properly and at best, will limp along for the rest of our time here on Earth.
Re: Mel's ... "Men don't move out" ... - 06/03/07 03:45 PM
Well, I sure appreciate you adding my post to your list, but, IMO, my best post of all time was when I told professional adultress, SARIE/BlessedTime/Celt/IWRA, that her affair was about as "beautiful" as 2 pigs rutting in the PIG PEN, after she had extolled the virtues of her pretty affair by comparing it to Bridges of Madison County. **snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
She went CRAZY! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Dat was my bestest post, Pep! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
She went CRAZY! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Dat was my bestest post, Pep! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Re: Mel's ... "Men don't move out" ... - 06/03/07 04:01 PM
Quote
Ive read so many posts detailing how hard it is to recover. I myself feel the same. My M is so much better than it ever was, my H tries very hard and I have so much to be thankful for.
Ive asked myself so many times why I would still be struggling so badly.
Yesterday, I had my first session w Steve Harley. He explained it to me this way
"As long as you believe that your H had an affair because his emotional needs were not being met (as a *primary* reason) you will be meting his emotional needs out of fear, there will always be a gun held to your head. Your H had an affair because he failed to protect HIMSELF from his own vulnerabilities, period. He is accountable and responsible for all"
He then went on to explain that perhaps my H has been telling me that "it wont happen again, that I am safe, etc..." BUT that it will likely have little reassuring effect because he is saying things that I believed were *always true*.
He said that until my H proves to me that HE gets it, that HE takes responsibility fully for what happened ( the A, not the downslide of our marriage) that you cannot heal.
I wonder how many of us BS that are struggling have spouses that have come to us and said "I did this to you. I failed us. I failed to protect the safety of our M. I will keep us safe from now on, you no longer have to be the gatekeeper." I wonder if they did, how many of us would still be struggling?
Steve likens this emotional injury to a horrific car crash. If we had visible physical wounds that mirrored the emotional trauma we have sustained there would be a plan to heal. First, you do A. then B. then C. and so on.
If our spouses are unable to do these things, we will not heal properly and at best, will limp along for the rest of our time here on Earth.
Ive asked myself so many times why I would still be struggling so badly.
Yesterday, I had my first session w Steve Harley. He explained it to me this way
"As long as you believe that your H had an affair because his emotional needs were not being met (as a *primary* reason) you will be meting his emotional needs out of fear, there will always be a gun held to your head. Your H had an affair because he failed to protect HIMSELF from his own vulnerabilities, period. He is accountable and responsible for all"
He then went on to explain that perhaps my H has been telling me that "it wont happen again, that I am safe, etc..." BUT that it will likely have little reassuring effect because he is saying things that I believed were *always true*.
He said that until my H proves to me that HE gets it, that HE takes responsibility fully for what happened ( the A, not the downslide of our marriage) that you cannot heal.
I wonder how many of us BS that are struggling have spouses that have come to us and said "I did this to you. I failed us. I failed to protect the safety of our M. I will keep us safe from now on, you no longer have to be the gatekeeper." I wonder if they did, how many of us would still be struggling?
Steve likens this emotional injury to a horrific car crash. If we had visible physical wounds that mirrored the emotional trauma we have sustained there would be a plan to heal. First, you do A. then B. then C. and so on.
If our spouses are unable to do these things, we will not heal properly and at best, will limp along for the rest of our time here on Earth.
I'm sorry that I don't know who posted this and on what thread it is posted.
Pep, I ALWAYS come here to read your NOTABLE POSTS...so I'm suggesting that you refer us back to the thread so we can comment THERE...
I think this is SOOO right on target and HELPFUL...
There's an IMPORTANT DISTINCTION between the BS taking RESPONSIBILITY for the A vs. mistakes in the MARRIAGE...
PLAN A involves meeting ENs that made the MARRIAGE vulnerable to the A..and SHOULD DEFINITELY not be WRONGLY CONSTRUED as the BS taking responsibility for causing THE AFFAIR...
And the part about the FWS being the GATEKEEPER...my H definitely does this...
And FOOLISH, SILLY ME, I've been LAMENTING this..IT HAS BUGGED ME..that he is seems so INSISTENT about the ROUTES he takes and when we/I go places..and about moving us out of town..yes, it has seemed like he is PROTECTING ME..but it is a CONSTANT REMINDER to me of the A...I have perhaps wrongly wanted to move into my own DENIAL about it...most of the time now I don't think about it AT ALL unless HE brings up something like.."You don't need to go to that PO at that time of day"..YUCK..THAT'S WHY WE'RE MAKING STEPS TO MOVE AWAY FROM THIS PLACE..HALLELUJAH...
HAPPY SUNDAY....
Re: Mel's ... "Men don't move out" ... - 06/03/07 04:35 PM
Quote
Well, I sure appreciate you adding my post to your list, but, IMO, my best post of all time was when I told professional adultress, SARIE/BlessedTime/Celt/IWRA, that her affair was about as "beautiful" as 2 pigs rutting in the PIG PEN, after she had extolled the virtues of her pretty affair by comparing it to Bridges of Madison County. **snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
She went CRAZY! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Dat was my bestest post, Pep! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
She went CRAZY! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Dat was my bestest post, Pep! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
it was but a short trip
Re: Mel's ... "Men don't move out" ... - 06/03/07 04:38 PM
Quote
I'm sorry that I don't know who posted this and on what thread it is posted.
Pep, I ALWAYS come here to read your NOTABLE POSTS...so I'm suggesting that you refer us back to the thread so we can comment THERE...
Pep, I ALWAYS come here to read your NOTABLE POSTS...so I'm suggesting that you refer us back to the thread so we can comment THERE...
mean Mimi, making Pep work HARDER when Pep is just trying to be lazy ....
HERE [color:"red"] <~~~ for the meanie Mimi [/color]
Re: Mel's ... "Men don't move out" ... - 06/03/07 04:44 PM
Quote
Quote
She went CRAZY! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Dat was my bestest post, Pep! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Dat was my bestest post, Pep! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
it was but a short trip
bwahahahaaaaa <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Re: Mel's ... "Men don't move out" ... - 06/03/07 04:53 PM
Quote
mean Mimi, making Pep work HARDER when Pep is just trying to be lazy ....
No wonder I hadn't read it..
I NEVER go over to the RECOVERY BOARD..
I try to STAY in MY PLACE...
[color:"red"] meanie Mimi [/color] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
jmwc95 success story - 06/04/07 07:01 PM
I just want to thank MB for another success story. Here is a quick recap for those who do not know my story:
5/5/06 - W meets OM at a work Cinco de Mayo party. They hit it off.
6/2/06 - W and I have a huge knock-down-drag-out fight, I withdraw and LB.
6/22/06 - W and OM hang out for first time by themselves.
7/8/06 - OM tells W he loves her at house party AT MY HOUSE!
7/28/06 - WW doesn't come home, says she got drunk and slept in her car (actually stayed at OM's apartment)
8/13/06 - Last time we had SF.
8/16/06 - OM leaves job and moves out of town, starts recruiting my W to come with him.
8/25/06 - D-Day, I find email that she is meeting OM in NYC. I get ILYBINILWY speech. I start modified plan A the next day even though I hadn't found MB as of yet.
9/6/06 - I relunctantly agree to move out and live with my parents so she can get the "space" she needs to make a decision.
9/23/06 - She goes on a 5 day vacation to NYC with OM.
10/3/06 - I move back in after I figure out the "space" I've given her has only made things worse.
10/29/06 - W tells me she wants a D, I find that she's been looking at job and apartment websites in OM's city, I find MB the next day and start reading.
11/3/06 - I post my story on MB, do a little more digging, and find my WW's EA is a PA. I expose to EVERYONE. WW tells me I ruined any chance of us reconciling. She starts calling up lawyers.
11/8/06 - I overhear a conversation of my WW telling OM, that she's just going to sponge off me until she saves up enough money to move and D. I immediately go to plan B, separate my finances, leave her a letter that tells her she needs to get new insurance and find a place to stay by the following week. She leaves me a message (crying) saying that she can't commit to M, but that she agrees to NC with OM and will not D at this time. I weigh my options and decide to go back to plan A.
11/28/06 - NC is broken the first time. WW buys calling card and calls from payphone, but I catch her.
12/16/06 - NC broken again by same method. I don't find card, but I do find purchase on her online bank statement.
1/18/07 - NC broken again, but WW does it from her cell phone and tells me before I find out. She says that she called him to end it for good and say goodbye.
1/26/07 - NC broken again. WW says she asked him back for some of her stuff.
1/27/07 - Last breach of NC (TMs). WW says it is about arguing over the items.
2/07-3/07 - Things finally start to improve. Starting with Valentine's Day, WW agrees to hang out with me, and I plan about 1 fun activity per week including murder mystery dinner theater, meeting the St. Louis Blues after a game, Mardi Gras, touring the Missouri wine country, her sister's birthday, dancing at a club downtown, trivia night, etc.
4/07 - WW finally agrees to go on vacation with me. She starts saying ILY again, and wants to hang out with me all the time. She purchase new furniture for the house and starts acting committed to our marriage again.
5/23/07 - WW and I go on a vacation to the Pacific Northwest. It is a HUGE success. WW starts wearing her ring again. Keeps saying ILY.
6/3/07 - After 43 weeks of sexual frustration, Jim FINALLY gets SF again. Hooray! She also starts talking having children together in the future which was one of things she was adamant about not having before and during the A.
I just want all you people who are struggling through similar situations to understand that things can turn around, it just takes a VERY long time and A LOT of patience. I wouldn't be her if I didn't keep believing and sacrificed my own needs while I worked on meeting hers and avoiding LBs.
5/5/06 - W meets OM at a work Cinco de Mayo party. They hit it off.
6/2/06 - W and I have a huge knock-down-drag-out fight, I withdraw and LB.
6/22/06 - W and OM hang out for first time by themselves.
7/8/06 - OM tells W he loves her at house party AT MY HOUSE!
7/28/06 - WW doesn't come home, says she got drunk and slept in her car (actually stayed at OM's apartment)
8/13/06 - Last time we had SF.
8/16/06 - OM leaves job and moves out of town, starts recruiting my W to come with him.
8/25/06 - D-Day, I find email that she is meeting OM in NYC. I get ILYBINILWY speech. I start modified plan A the next day even though I hadn't found MB as of yet.
9/6/06 - I relunctantly agree to move out and live with my parents so she can get the "space" she needs to make a decision.
9/23/06 - She goes on a 5 day vacation to NYC with OM.
10/3/06 - I move back in after I figure out the "space" I've given her has only made things worse.
10/29/06 - W tells me she wants a D, I find that she's been looking at job and apartment websites in OM's city, I find MB the next day and start reading.
11/3/06 - I post my story on MB, do a little more digging, and find my WW's EA is a PA. I expose to EVERYONE. WW tells me I ruined any chance of us reconciling. She starts calling up lawyers.
11/8/06 - I overhear a conversation of my WW telling OM, that she's just going to sponge off me until she saves up enough money to move and D. I immediately go to plan B, separate my finances, leave her a letter that tells her she needs to get new insurance and find a place to stay by the following week. She leaves me a message (crying) saying that she can't commit to M, but that she agrees to NC with OM and will not D at this time. I weigh my options and decide to go back to plan A.
11/28/06 - NC is broken the first time. WW buys calling card and calls from payphone, but I catch her.
12/16/06 - NC broken again by same method. I don't find card, but I do find purchase on her online bank statement.
1/18/07 - NC broken again, but WW does it from her cell phone and tells me before I find out. She says that she called him to end it for good and say goodbye.
1/26/07 - NC broken again. WW says she asked him back for some of her stuff.
1/27/07 - Last breach of NC (TMs). WW says it is about arguing over the items.
2/07-3/07 - Things finally start to improve. Starting with Valentine's Day, WW agrees to hang out with me, and I plan about 1 fun activity per week including murder mystery dinner theater, meeting the St. Louis Blues after a game, Mardi Gras, touring the Missouri wine country, her sister's birthday, dancing at a club downtown, trivia night, etc.
4/07 - WW finally agrees to go on vacation with me. She starts saying ILY again, and wants to hang out with me all the time. She purchase new furniture for the house and starts acting committed to our marriage again.
5/23/07 - WW and I go on a vacation to the Pacific Northwest. It is a HUGE success. WW starts wearing her ring again. Keeps saying ILY.
6/3/07 - After 43 weeks of sexual frustration, Jim FINALLY gets SF again. Hooray! She also starts talking having children together in the future which was one of things she was adamant about not having before and during the A.
I just want all you people who are struggling through similar situations to understand that things can turn around, it just takes a VERY long time and A LOT of patience. I wouldn't be her if I didn't keep believing and sacrificed my own needs while I worked on meeting hers and avoiding LBs.
LilSis "10 things I learned from my Dad" - 06/04/07 10:00 PM
My dad had lots o' patience, and he was always one to work on behalf of the underdog...in his quiet, behind-the-scenes way. And he ususally was pretty successful at it, too....never gave up.
So I guess you are right. Maybe he is storming heaven....in his quiet, behind the scenes way. Getting all the ducks in a row, making sure all the bases are covered, considering it from every angle, reading Consumers Reports.
So when he acts, it's with determination and certainty.
Helping make things right for me. Did I ever share the ten things I learned from my Dad? (I wrote it the day after he died for the woman who did his eulogy; my sisters insisted that I be the one to write something on behalf of us girls)
• Things that are old and worn out are the most comfortable.
• Don’t start eating until you say grace.
• Work is hard, and can make you tired, but when you believe in what you do, it’s worth it.
• A sense of humor will get you through the most difficult times, such as when all the hot water is gone.
• Never bring home an Irish setter (or anything else) that doesn’t belong to you.
• Making others happy can be the key to your own happiness.
• Sometimes “good enough” really is good enough.
• Never make a major purchase without consulting Consumer Reports.
• A rose is often found between two thorns.
• Sometimes it’s just a raccoon outside the camper, so don’t be afraid to face what scares you.
• Guilt is an extremely effective parenting tool.
• Sometimes you get the twirly plate, or the bay leaf on your piece of pizza, or chocolate cake when you’d rather have lemon, but enjoy your food—and life—anyway.
Right after d-day, I printed this out and stuck it on my fridge. I should probably pay more attention to it, instead of glancing at it as I reach in for the ice cream.
NSR: When does Plan B end? ( written year 2000) - 06/08/07 05:07 AM
posted July 29, 2000 11:30 AM
Oh cerebral me...
I rarely get a chance to post a question or thought of my own...
...but here it goes anyway...
Most of you know that I advocate Dr. Harley's principles with a great deal of fidelity especially in the application of Plan A and Plan B...
...whether they be procedures or processes or otherwise...
...and it might seem strange that as I continue my long distance Plan A, I now propose a discussion of Plan B.
Yes... this should be on the Plan A/Plan B forum...
...but there are few responses there... so I continue here...
The thrust of the question/thought is:
Many who have not yet made it to RECOVERY have wondered... "When do I quit?"...
With this in mind... I asked myself...
"since we consider Plan B as a final step... and we deliberately leave off a time limit in the Plan B letter... when does Plan B really end?...and how is it to end?"
My thoughts...
...take them as just mine...
...in humbleness... I force nothing on anyone...
The issue of a truly abusive situation...
...one that "breaks" the relationship... it is then, unquestionably, over...
...but when one can apply Plan A and perhaps Plan B... I explore these further.
Plan A ends usually by entering into the perils of what many expect to be the joyfulness of recovery...
...All too often we hear the stories of how it would have been better to not enter into this stage at all
...tribulations continue
...change by the spouse not accepting Plan A efforts is slow
...learning the 4 rules of a successful marriage never takes place at the pace we'd like
...struggles in working out a personal POJA hampers all efforts
...growing pains are hard
...triggers remain
...and even here... success isn't guaranteed...
...but through all its difficulties
...recovery is the best goal to strive for
...and its continuation is one of a healthier marriage.
Plan A can also end...
...by starting Plan B...
...but what about the ending of Plan B?...
(I can't rule out Plan A ending this way too...
...for those who continue in Plan A and... never quite make it to Plan B... {Chris... you and I are included here and... I did read your post the other day... what timing for your "update"})
So what about the end of Plan B?...
Obviously... if one of the goals of Plan B (forcing our S's ENs to be met by the OP) reaches its desired result... the WS will return...
...and the normal push toward recovery starts...
But for some in Plan B (and a few in Plan A)... this travel into recovery does not occur.
We are told... and I plug this as much as anyone... (K included)...
...we are to reach a state of ("near Nirvana") where we can move on...
...but there comes a point (or several points) along this roller coaster ride... a conflicting scenario...
Plan B (in the standard letter) says... "we are saving what little love (in our Love Banks) we have for our spouses"...
...but then... in time... we're expected to ...move on...
...clearly to do this... that now infamous "no contact"... (or extended long distance Plan A)... itself leads to a slow drain of that precious love... and periodically we reach anxiety points when we sense the loss... (like a buoy riding on top of small waves in an ocean searching for the sight of the shoreline) ...the shoreline of "the state of lost love"... and the start of a new journey.
How do we know that we've reached that shore line?...
Are the waves crashing on our backs the sign?....
Is it the rough shells our feet walk upon among those signs?...
Is it the water running off of our backs?...
Might all of these be just temporary reprieves before we really reach that shore line?
Once we reach the dry land... are we rejoining the "tree dwellers"?...
...or the "wind walkers"?...
...(see my post Inspire (13))
Signs are often misleading...
Listening with the "inner" EAR... found only in our hEARt...
...will direct us to this truth.
All through Plan B (and Plan A as well) we all say...
....this is a time of growth...
....it gives you time to better learn the skills of marital success...
....it let's you re-find your direction
...... thrown off stride by your unrepentant and/or unforgiving spouse...
But even though we can never reach the fullness of these skills alone
...and work at the skills without human interaction (maybe a partner)....
...through which we practice and hone those skills...
...is there merit to the learning of these skills?
Those marital skills...
...after all...
...are skills of all human relationships...
The rule of protection... after all... is to protect anyone from our inevitable failings
The rule of care... after all... is to care for... to love our neighbor as ourselves... even our enemies
The rule of honesty... after all... is a desire to have honesty shown us... by everyone... to not bear false witness
The rule of time... after all... is to give of ourselves the most valuable of all human resources...
...since in the end... that is what we really lose out on...
...see my post Inspire (35)
...are these "rules" procedures?... or processes?...
...to that... all I can say is... does it matter?!
So back to... "when/how does Plan B end?"...
There comes a time.... sometimes when you're close enough to the shoreline...
...and you're enlightened... in the reality that your spouse has left...
...left in a way deeper than not being physically close...
...left in a way deeper than losing their own faith/mind/spirit...
...left in a way deeper than just a filing or completing of a divorce.
A divorce is not the end of Plan B.
The signed document isn't a testimony... just a decree of entering a transition!
The end comes in knowing... both...
1. You have learned all of the 4 rules of "human" relationships
...and...
2. You have an "acceptance"... of a new journey in your life.
Both must happen... not just one... or the other.
We, most likely, know if we learned those rules...
...like everything we learn in life... it is made better only by practice...
...our learning will be imperfect... and that is OK...
...as long as we can persevere...
...and it is under our control!
...failure leads us to hurtful(rebound) relationships
...success leads us to wisdom... and healthy relationships
But... that "acceptance"... it is the more difficult and less absolute aspect...
...this comes to us as a presence of mind...
...it is not something to be worked at...
...it just happens...
...whether we are aided by waves crashing, our feet on the shells, or water off our backs...
...when we can accept this presence of mind
...... to close out what we've lost...
...we will then begin a renewal!...
...the suffering of the past can then be fully put behind you.
What is decided as a new journey is up to us...
...it could be a new relationship leading to marriage
...it could be as a life as a single
both are valid vocations...
...aided mostly by how we have learned in "building good relationships"...
In my mind...
...when you know your on that new journey...
...that is... when the Plan B ends.
I pray for all to heal...
Jim
Oh cerebral me...
I rarely get a chance to post a question or thought of my own...
...but here it goes anyway...
Most of you know that I advocate Dr. Harley's principles with a great deal of fidelity especially in the application of Plan A and Plan B...
...whether they be procedures or processes or otherwise...
...and it might seem strange that as I continue my long distance Plan A, I now propose a discussion of Plan B.
Yes... this should be on the Plan A/Plan B forum...
...but there are few responses there... so I continue here...
The thrust of the question/thought is:
Many who have not yet made it to RECOVERY have wondered... "When do I quit?"...
With this in mind... I asked myself...
"since we consider Plan B as a final step... and we deliberately leave off a time limit in the Plan B letter... when does Plan B really end?...and how is it to end?"
My thoughts...
...take them as just mine...
...in humbleness... I force nothing on anyone...
The issue of a truly abusive situation...
...one that "breaks" the relationship... it is then, unquestionably, over...
...but when one can apply Plan A and perhaps Plan B... I explore these further.
Plan A ends usually by entering into the perils of what many expect to be the joyfulness of recovery...
...All too often we hear the stories of how it would have been better to not enter into this stage at all
...tribulations continue
...change by the spouse not accepting Plan A efforts is slow
...learning the 4 rules of a successful marriage never takes place at the pace we'd like
...struggles in working out a personal POJA hampers all efforts
...growing pains are hard
...triggers remain
...and even here... success isn't guaranteed...
...but through all its difficulties
...recovery is the best goal to strive for
...and its continuation is one of a healthier marriage.
Plan A can also end...
...by starting Plan B...
...but what about the ending of Plan B?...
(I can't rule out Plan A ending this way too...
...for those who continue in Plan A and... never quite make it to Plan B... {Chris... you and I are included here and... I did read your post the other day... what timing for your "update"})
So what about the end of Plan B?...
Obviously... if one of the goals of Plan B (forcing our S's ENs to be met by the OP) reaches its desired result... the WS will return...
...and the normal push toward recovery starts...
But for some in Plan B (and a few in Plan A)... this travel into recovery does not occur.
We are told... and I plug this as much as anyone... (K included)...
...we are to reach a state of ("near Nirvana") where we can move on...
...but there comes a point (or several points) along this roller coaster ride... a conflicting scenario...
Plan B (in the standard letter) says... "we are saving what little love (in our Love Banks) we have for our spouses"...
...but then... in time... we're expected to ...move on...
...clearly to do this... that now infamous "no contact"... (or extended long distance Plan A)... itself leads to a slow drain of that precious love... and periodically we reach anxiety points when we sense the loss... (like a buoy riding on top of small waves in an ocean searching for the sight of the shoreline) ...the shoreline of "the state of lost love"... and the start of a new journey.
How do we know that we've reached that shore line?...
Are the waves crashing on our backs the sign?....
Is it the rough shells our feet walk upon among those signs?...
Is it the water running off of our backs?...
Might all of these be just temporary reprieves before we really reach that shore line?
Once we reach the dry land... are we rejoining the "tree dwellers"?...
...or the "wind walkers"?...
...(see my post Inspire (13))
Signs are often misleading...
Listening with the "inner" EAR... found only in our hEARt...
...will direct us to this truth.
All through Plan B (and Plan A as well) we all say...
....this is a time of growth...
....it gives you time to better learn the skills of marital success...
....it let's you re-find your direction
...... thrown off stride by your unrepentant and/or unforgiving spouse...
But even though we can never reach the fullness of these skills alone
...and work at the skills without human interaction (maybe a partner)....
...through which we practice and hone those skills...
...is there merit to the learning of these skills?
Those marital skills...
...after all...
...are skills of all human relationships...
The rule of protection... after all... is to protect anyone from our inevitable failings
The rule of care... after all... is to care for... to love our neighbor as ourselves... even our enemies
The rule of honesty... after all... is a desire to have honesty shown us... by everyone... to not bear false witness
The rule of time... after all... is to give of ourselves the most valuable of all human resources...
...since in the end... that is what we really lose out on...
...see my post Inspire (35)
...are these "rules" procedures?... or processes?...
...to that... all I can say is... does it matter?!
So back to... "when/how does Plan B end?"...
There comes a time.... sometimes when you're close enough to the shoreline...
...and you're enlightened... in the reality that your spouse has left...
...left in a way deeper than not being physically close...
...left in a way deeper than losing their own faith/mind/spirit...
...left in a way deeper than just a filing or completing of a divorce.
A divorce is not the end of Plan B.
The signed document isn't a testimony... just a decree of entering a transition!
The end comes in knowing... both...
1. You have learned all of the 4 rules of "human" relationships
...and...
2. You have an "acceptance"... of a new journey in your life.
Both must happen... not just one... or the other.
We, most likely, know if we learned those rules...
...like everything we learn in life... it is made better only by practice...
...our learning will be imperfect... and that is OK...
...as long as we can persevere...
...and it is under our control!
...failure leads us to hurtful(rebound) relationships
...success leads us to wisdom... and healthy relationships
But... that "acceptance"... it is the more difficult and less absolute aspect...
...this comes to us as a presence of mind...
...it is not something to be worked at...
...it just happens...
...whether we are aided by waves crashing, our feet on the shells, or water off our backs...
...when we can accept this presence of mind
...... to close out what we've lost...
...we will then begin a renewal!...
...the suffering of the past can then be fully put behind you.
What is decided as a new journey is up to us...
...it could be a new relationship leading to marriage
...it could be as a life as a single
both are valid vocations...
...aided mostly by how we have learned in "building good relationships"...
In my mind...
...when you know your on that new journey...
...that is... when the Plan B ends.
I pray for all to heal...
Jim
Mark1952 .... The snake story - 06/08/07 05:31 AM
A Native American legend:
A young boy was walking in the mountains, high up, near the tree line. The weather was cold and winter was about to begin.
As he walked along, he found a rattle snake. It was coiled up tightly, braced against the cold wind.
“Please help me!” the snake said to the boy, “If I don’t get down to lower elevations and warm up, I’ll surely die.”
“Help you?” asked the boy, “why would I help someone who could harm me?”
“If you don’t help me, Ill die!” said the snake. “But if you’ll just pick me up and take me down the mountain with you, I’ll have a chance to live.”
“But you’ll bite me if I touch you, and then I will die,” said the boy.
“No,” said the snake, “I promise, that if you’ll help me, I’ll let you live, for I will owe you my life.”
So the boy, after contemplating his course of action, picked up the snake, placed him inside his coat and began his long climb down the mountain.
The snake began to warm up inside the boy’s coat, and as his strength returned. He began to move around, and then he bit the boy on his side.
The boy tore the snake out of his coat and shouted, “You said you wouldn’t bite me if I helped you and now you’ve done just that! I am going to die here on the mountain and my family will be devastated. No one will even know what happened to me. My people may even blame the neighboring people and think that they have done something to me. There could be a great war and many will die. You promised! How could you do such a thing?”
“You knew “said the snake, “what I was when you picked me up.”
In the story of David and Bathsheba, 2Sam 11:1 says "at the time when kings go off to war, David sent Joab out with the king's men and the whole Israelite army."
David was where he should not have been, and fell to the temptation.
If you go where you shouldn’t go and seek out that which can harm you, you will be bitten by the snake! Only one Man has ever been successful at resisting all temptation!
It isn’t about resisting, it is about boundaries.
Nail holes in the fence - 06/08/07 05:34 AM
There once was a little boy who had a bad
temper. His Father gave him a bag of nails
and told him that every time he lost his
temper, he must hammer a nail into the back
of the fence. The first day the boy had
driven 37 nails into the fence Over the next
next few weeks, as he learned to control his
anger, the number of nails hammered daily
gradually dwindled down. He discovered
it was easier to hold his temper than to
drive those nails into the fence.
Finally the day came when the boy didn't
lose his temper at all. He told his father
about it and the father suggested that the
boy now pull out one nail for each day that
he was able to hold his temper.
The days passed and the young boy was finally
able to tell his father that all the nails
were gone. The father took his son by the
hand and led him to the fence He said, "You
have done well, my son, but look at the
holes in the fence. The fence will never be
the same. When you say things in anger,
they leave a scar just like this one. You
can put a knife in a man and draw it out.
It won't matter how many times you say I'm
sorry, the wound is still there. " A verbal
wound is as bad as a physical one.
Do's & Don'ts of PLAN A .... Mr Wondering - 06/09/07 02:41 PM
DO's
1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)
DON'Ts
1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP
1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)
DON'Ts
1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP
Re: Do's & Don'ts of PLAN A .... Mr Wondering - 06/09/07 03:24 PM
Pep,
I am honored by inclusion... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
It's good to know someone actually reads this stuff occasionally. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Thanks,
Mark
I am honored by inclusion... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
It's good to know someone actually reads this stuff occasionally. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Thanks,
Mark
Re: Do's & Don'ts of PLAN A .... Mr Wondering - 06/09/07 03:31 PM
thank YOU Mark
"Open Marriage" - 06/11/07 10:32 PM
Marriage is a closed contract. When you open it....the contract has been broken. There are some people who argue that the contract is about "honesty" rather than "exclusivity", but opening a marriage invariable dilutes it's value as a covenant and opens it to RISK. Promiscuity waters down honor and marriage vows until they mean NOTHING.
I truly believe that there is a sanctity in the exclusive (emotional AND sexual) union of TWO people that provides the strongest bond, the most opportunity for depth and growth, the most stable environment for children, families and communities. It weakens us as a society when marriage models are flawed or fail.
If you "want it all"....don't get married or have children. I could care less if people want a hundred sex partners....but don't marry....and don't bring innocent children into the nightmare you're creating for yourself and bring them into the risk and drama that open marriage INVITES into your life.
Every time you add another person, another couple, fuzzy boundaries and wishful thinking....you increase RISK exponentially.
You think marriage with two people is hard??? Lord in Heaven....just start adding sex partners if you want a crash course for self destruct, shame and pain.
Can it be done successfully? Some say yes....but *I* don't believe it...I say....it's just another fantasy like the rest of affairs. I was hippie, and we grocked like the rest of the "Strangers in a Strange Land". What a delusion. This stuff was tried and failed. The only thing that differentiates swinging from affairs is the *honesty*.....and most of the time....that breaks down anyway!! It starts out honest until real feelings get in the way.....and they always get in the way, because we're WIRED that way.
But even if it didn't. Let's say two people agree to share their bodies but not their emotions and do it all above board....this is not a recipe for marriage...it's a recipe for tragedy, shame, denial and divorce. The essential problem with swinging is that it takes energy away from the primary relationship with spouse, family and children. It waters it down. It strains it. It undermines the intimacy.
It's next to impossible to share something as intimate as sex, and not develope affair-style biochemistry that acts on the marriage like ANY OTHER AFFAIR. You're kidding yourself if you think your biochemistry won't betray you.
I've spoken to many many people in this situation....and sadly....the results are as predictable as any other kind of affair. Somebody wants it....somebody gets talked into it. There is an agreement. It goes okay for a while....sometimes even a good long while. Then someone crosses the line....they start to hide their emotional involvement with one of their sex partners, or they get that "in love" biochemistry and there's no difference at all in the script....bla bla bla.
I honestly can't understand why people who want an open marriage, get married at all. Polyamory, open marriages, swinging....they are finally nothing but a selfish illusion that eventually blows up and creates shame and the destruction of families....JUST LIKE ANY OTHER kind of infidelity.
I've done extensive research on this subject. I have found absolutely NO evidence whatsoever that these models are sustainable long enough to raise children. In fact, the only research available says quite the opposite. The only place you get a real rosy picture of this lifestyle....is on the sites that promote it! Duh
It's a trap, a Brigadoon,....an insidious cancer like any other adultery that promises Utopia and delivers drama and heartbreak. There are probably a few die hard swingers who follow through....but for the majority of us....don't try this at home!! There are people who try to jump the Grand Canyon on a motorcycle....but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.
I agree with people who say that humans are probably not naturally monogamous. No siree....it takes strength of character to avoid temptation. It takes pain and forgiveness to move past the pitfalls and failures. But to me, that's precisely what makes marriage so special and unique...that we can rise above our primal roots and make a commitment that transcends even nature. That we care enough about one person to be MORE than our sexual yearnings for change. How cool is that?
I truly believe that there is a sanctity in the exclusive (emotional AND sexual) union of TWO people that provides the strongest bond, the most opportunity for depth and growth, the most stable environment for children, families and communities. It weakens us as a society when marriage models are flawed or fail.
If you "want it all"....don't get married or have children. I could care less if people want a hundred sex partners....but don't marry....and don't bring innocent children into the nightmare you're creating for yourself and bring them into the risk and drama that open marriage INVITES into your life.
Every time you add another person, another couple, fuzzy boundaries and wishful thinking....you increase RISK exponentially.
You think marriage with two people is hard??? Lord in Heaven....just start adding sex partners if you want a crash course for self destruct, shame and pain.
Can it be done successfully? Some say yes....but *I* don't believe it...I say....it's just another fantasy like the rest of affairs. I was hippie, and we grocked like the rest of the "Strangers in a Strange Land". What a delusion. This stuff was tried and failed. The only thing that differentiates swinging from affairs is the *honesty*.....and most of the time....that breaks down anyway!! It starts out honest until real feelings get in the way.....and they always get in the way, because we're WIRED that way.
But even if it didn't. Let's say two people agree to share their bodies but not their emotions and do it all above board....this is not a recipe for marriage...it's a recipe for tragedy, shame, denial and divorce. The essential problem with swinging is that it takes energy away from the primary relationship with spouse, family and children. It waters it down. It strains it. It undermines the intimacy.
It's next to impossible to share something as intimate as sex, and not develope affair-style biochemistry that acts on the marriage like ANY OTHER AFFAIR. You're kidding yourself if you think your biochemistry won't betray you.
I've spoken to many many people in this situation....and sadly....the results are as predictable as any other kind of affair. Somebody wants it....somebody gets talked into it. There is an agreement. It goes okay for a while....sometimes even a good long while. Then someone crosses the line....they start to hide their emotional involvement with one of their sex partners, or they get that "in love" biochemistry and there's no difference at all in the script....bla bla bla.
I honestly can't understand why people who want an open marriage, get married at all. Polyamory, open marriages, swinging....they are finally nothing but a selfish illusion that eventually blows up and creates shame and the destruction of families....JUST LIKE ANY OTHER kind of infidelity.
I've done extensive research on this subject. I have found absolutely NO evidence whatsoever that these models are sustainable long enough to raise children. In fact, the only research available says quite the opposite. The only place you get a real rosy picture of this lifestyle....is on the sites that promote it! Duh
It's a trap, a Brigadoon,....an insidious cancer like any other adultery that promises Utopia and delivers drama and heartbreak. There are probably a few die hard swingers who follow through....but for the majority of us....don't try this at home!! There are people who try to jump the Grand Canyon on a motorcycle....but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.
I agree with people who say that humans are probably not naturally monogamous. No siree....it takes strength of character to avoid temptation. It takes pain and forgiveness to move past the pitfalls and failures. But to me, that's precisely what makes marriage so special and unique...that we can rise above our primal roots and make a commitment that transcends even nature. That we care enough about one person to be MORE than our sexual yearnings for change. How cool is that?
EA in the workplace : brought to you by Suzet* - 06/18/07 03:07 PM
I have found the following good article on the Internet and thought it might be good to share it here. Maybe it will be of some insight, help or understanding to new people on this board who currently find or previously have found themselves in similar situations.
INFIDELITY REACHES BEYOND HAVING SEX:
EMOTIONAL INTIMACY, VIRTUAL AFFAIRS TAKE HOLD IN THE WORKPLACE
Cybersex and so-called virtual affairs on the Internet are all the buzz among professionals who study spouses who stray. But the truly fertile ground for dangerous emotional attachments outside marriages is much more conventional: the workplace.
As more employees labor longer hours together, close friendships increasingly are taken for granted. And as more women move into professions once dominated by men, there are greater temptations for both sexes.
There is a new ''crisis of infidelity'' breeding in the workplace, says Baltimore psychologist and marital researcher Shirley Glass. Often it does not involve sexual thrill seekers, but ''good people,'' peers who are in good marriages.
''The new infidelity is between people who unwittingly form deep, passionate connections before realizing that they've crossed the line from platonic friendship into romantic love,'' Glass says.
Glass' 25 years of research on ''extramarital attachments'' adds to a growing understanding of just what constitutes infidelity and why it happens.
She believes affairs do not have to include sex. ''In the new infidelity, affairs do not have to be sexual. Sometimes the greatest betrayals happen without touching. Infidelity is any emotional or sexual intimacy that violates trust.''
This revised concept of an affair is embraced by increasing numbers of Glass' colleagues. People are ''incredibly devastated by their partner's emotional affair,'' says Peggy Vaughan, who has researched infidelity for 20 years. ''They separate over it, divorce over it, this breaking of a trust, a bond.'' The third edition of Vaughan's The Monogamy Myth will be released this month.
A platonic friendship, such as those that grow at work, edges into an emotional affair when three elements are present, Glass says:
* Emotional intimacy. Transgressors share more of their ''inner self, frustrations and triumphs than with their spouses. They are on a slippery slope when they begin sharing the dissatisfaction with their marriage with a co-worker.''
* Secrecy and deception. ''They neglect to say, 'We meet every morning for coffee.' Once the lying starts, the intimacy shifts farther away from the marriage.''
* Sexual chemistry. Even though the two may not act on the chemistry, there is at least an unacknowledged sexual attraction.
Glass sums up her research and that of others in Not ''Just Friends'': Protect Your Relationship from Infidelity and Heal the Trauma of Betrayal (Free Press, $24), now arriving in bookstores.
''This is the essence of the new crisis of infidelity: friendships, work relationships and Internet liaisons have become the latest threat to marriages,'' Glass says.
Affairs that take place in chat rooms on the Internet are classic examples of emotional infidelity. How many have affairs, either emotional or sexual, is difficult to gauge. After reviewing 25 studies, Glass believes 25% of wives and 44% of husbands have had extramarital intercourse.
About two-thirds of the 350 couples she has treated include one or both partners who have had some type of intense affair, sexual or emotional. The most threatening to marriages combine both, she says. Sixty-two percent of the unfaithful men and 46% of the women met their illicit partner through work.
Researchers identify many factors contributing to infidelity. Proximity at the office is key for Glass. ''My research and the research of others point to opportunity as a primary factor. . . . Attractions are a fact of life when men and women work side by side.''
Many other risk factors may be in play. They include:
* Family patterns. Unfaithful parents tend to produce sons who betray their wives and daughters who either accept affairs as normal or are unfaithful themselves, Glass says.
* Biochemical cravings. Changes in brain chemicals during an affair can create a ''high that becomes almost addictive,'' says Atlanta psychiatrist Frank Pittman, author of Private Lies: Infidelity and the Betrayal of Intimacy.
Bonnie Eaker-Weil, author of Adultery: The Forgivable Sin, says the biological need for connection can result from ''severe stress, loss or separation'' that often can be traced back to childhood.
* Internet temptations. Increasing numbers of cyber-affairs are breaking up stable marriages, says psychologist Kimberly Young, author of Tangled in the Web: Understanding Cybersex From Fantasy to Addiction. She cites the anonymity and convenience of the Internet, as well as the escape it provides from the stresses of everyday life.
* Increasing premarital sex. The more premarital sexual activity, the greater the chance of an extramarital affair, Glass says. ''Because girls are more sexually active at younger ages than they used to be, married women are not nearly as inhibited about crossing the line.''
* Child-centered marriages. Parents with dual careers and limited time ''often collude to give what time they have to the children. Their bond is built on co-parenting, and they don't make time for themselves,'' Glass says.
Stereotypically, the husband finds somebody at work to share his adult interests.
Some affairs happen, Glass says, ''because people have certain beliefs they think will protect them. They believe if they love their spouse and have a good marriage, they don't have to worry. They don't exert the caution that might be necessary or create the boundaries to make their marriages safe.''
Basically monogamous partners drawn to interesting colleagues at work find themselves in ''great internal conflict.'' Her best advice: ''The more attractive we find somebody, the more careful we have to be.''
HOW TO KEEP TEMPTATION AT ARM'S LENGTH
There is no such thing as an affair-proof marriage. But couples who want to protect their unions from infidelity can be mindful of the dangers. To keep a marriage healthy:
* Stay honest with your partner. ''Honesty is the trump card for preventing affairs,'' says Peggy Vaughan, who has studied affairs for more than two decades. Her Web site is dearpeggy.com. ''Make a commitment to sharing your attractions and temptations.'' That helps to avoid acting on them. Dishonesty and deception cause affairs to flourish, Vaughan says.
* Monitor your marriage. ''Realize if there is something missing,'' says psychologist Kimberly Young of St. Bonaventure University in southwest New York state. ''Be willing to try to fix it.'' Assess whether needs are being met.
* Stay alert for temptations. ''Be very careful of getting involved in the first place,'' Young says. ''Know the dangers. You can be drawn to an affair as to a drug. And once you are past a certain point of emotional connection, it is very hard to go into reverse.''
* Don't flirt. ''That is how affairs start,'' says Bonnie Eaker Weil, whose Web site, www.makeupdontbreakup .com, features tips for preventing infidelity. ''Flirting is not part of an innocent friendship. If you think there might be a problem with someone you flirt with, there probably is a problem.''
* Recognize that work can be a danger zone. ''Don't lunch or take private coffee breaks with the same person all the time,'' psychologist Shirley Glass says.
* Beware of the lure of the Internet. ''Emotional affairs develop quickly, in maybe a few days or weeks online, where it might take a year at the office,'' Young says. ''There is safety behind the computer screen.''
* Keep old flames from reigniting. ''If you value your marriage, think twice about having lunch with one,'' Glass says. Invite your partner along.
* Value the intimacy of your marriage. ''Reveal as much of yourself to one another as possible,'' Atlanta psychiatrist Frank Pittman says. ''You will find it less necessary to form an intimate friendship with someone else.''
* Make sure your social network supports marriage. ''Surround yourself with happily married friends who don't believe in fooling around,'' Glass says.
INFIDELITY REACHES BEYOND HAVING SEX:
EMOTIONAL INTIMACY, VIRTUAL AFFAIRS TAKE HOLD IN THE WORKPLACE
Cybersex and so-called virtual affairs on the Internet are all the buzz among professionals who study spouses who stray. But the truly fertile ground for dangerous emotional attachments outside marriages is much more conventional: the workplace.
As more employees labor longer hours together, close friendships increasingly are taken for granted. And as more women move into professions once dominated by men, there are greater temptations for both sexes.
There is a new ''crisis of infidelity'' breeding in the workplace, says Baltimore psychologist and marital researcher Shirley Glass. Often it does not involve sexual thrill seekers, but ''good people,'' peers who are in good marriages.
''The new infidelity is between people who unwittingly form deep, passionate connections before realizing that they've crossed the line from platonic friendship into romantic love,'' Glass says.
Glass' 25 years of research on ''extramarital attachments'' adds to a growing understanding of just what constitutes infidelity and why it happens.
She believes affairs do not have to include sex. ''In the new infidelity, affairs do not have to be sexual. Sometimes the greatest betrayals happen without touching. Infidelity is any emotional or sexual intimacy that violates trust.''
This revised concept of an affair is embraced by increasing numbers of Glass' colleagues. People are ''incredibly devastated by their partner's emotional affair,'' says Peggy Vaughan, who has researched infidelity for 20 years. ''They separate over it, divorce over it, this breaking of a trust, a bond.'' The third edition of Vaughan's The Monogamy Myth will be released this month.
A platonic friendship, such as those that grow at work, edges into an emotional affair when three elements are present, Glass says:
* Emotional intimacy. Transgressors share more of their ''inner self, frustrations and triumphs than with their spouses. They are on a slippery slope when they begin sharing the dissatisfaction with their marriage with a co-worker.''
* Secrecy and deception. ''They neglect to say, 'We meet every morning for coffee.' Once the lying starts, the intimacy shifts farther away from the marriage.''
* Sexual chemistry. Even though the two may not act on the chemistry, there is at least an unacknowledged sexual attraction.
Glass sums up her research and that of others in Not ''Just Friends'': Protect Your Relationship from Infidelity and Heal the Trauma of Betrayal (Free Press, $24), now arriving in bookstores.
''This is the essence of the new crisis of infidelity: friendships, work relationships and Internet liaisons have become the latest threat to marriages,'' Glass says.
Affairs that take place in chat rooms on the Internet are classic examples of emotional infidelity. How many have affairs, either emotional or sexual, is difficult to gauge. After reviewing 25 studies, Glass believes 25% of wives and 44% of husbands have had extramarital intercourse.
About two-thirds of the 350 couples she has treated include one or both partners who have had some type of intense affair, sexual or emotional. The most threatening to marriages combine both, she says. Sixty-two percent of the unfaithful men and 46% of the women met their illicit partner through work.
Researchers identify many factors contributing to infidelity. Proximity at the office is key for Glass. ''My research and the research of others point to opportunity as a primary factor. . . . Attractions are a fact of life when men and women work side by side.''
Many other risk factors may be in play. They include:
* Family patterns. Unfaithful parents tend to produce sons who betray their wives and daughters who either accept affairs as normal or are unfaithful themselves, Glass says.
* Biochemical cravings. Changes in brain chemicals during an affair can create a ''high that becomes almost addictive,'' says Atlanta psychiatrist Frank Pittman, author of Private Lies: Infidelity and the Betrayal of Intimacy.
Bonnie Eaker-Weil, author of Adultery: The Forgivable Sin, says the biological need for connection can result from ''severe stress, loss or separation'' that often can be traced back to childhood.
* Internet temptations. Increasing numbers of cyber-affairs are breaking up stable marriages, says psychologist Kimberly Young, author of Tangled in the Web: Understanding Cybersex From Fantasy to Addiction. She cites the anonymity and convenience of the Internet, as well as the escape it provides from the stresses of everyday life.
* Increasing premarital sex. The more premarital sexual activity, the greater the chance of an extramarital affair, Glass says. ''Because girls are more sexually active at younger ages than they used to be, married women are not nearly as inhibited about crossing the line.''
* Child-centered marriages. Parents with dual careers and limited time ''often collude to give what time they have to the children. Their bond is built on co-parenting, and they don't make time for themselves,'' Glass says.
Stereotypically, the husband finds somebody at work to share his adult interests.
Some affairs happen, Glass says, ''because people have certain beliefs they think will protect them. They believe if they love their spouse and have a good marriage, they don't have to worry. They don't exert the caution that might be necessary or create the boundaries to make their marriages safe.''
Basically monogamous partners drawn to interesting colleagues at work find themselves in ''great internal conflict.'' Her best advice: ''The more attractive we find somebody, the more careful we have to be.''
HOW TO KEEP TEMPTATION AT ARM'S LENGTH
There is no such thing as an affair-proof marriage. But couples who want to protect their unions from infidelity can be mindful of the dangers. To keep a marriage healthy:
* Stay honest with your partner. ''Honesty is the trump card for preventing affairs,'' says Peggy Vaughan, who has studied affairs for more than two decades. Her Web site is dearpeggy.com. ''Make a commitment to sharing your attractions and temptations.'' That helps to avoid acting on them. Dishonesty and deception cause affairs to flourish, Vaughan says.
* Monitor your marriage. ''Realize if there is something missing,'' says psychologist Kimberly Young of St. Bonaventure University in southwest New York state. ''Be willing to try to fix it.'' Assess whether needs are being met.
* Stay alert for temptations. ''Be very careful of getting involved in the first place,'' Young says. ''Know the dangers. You can be drawn to an affair as to a drug. And once you are past a certain point of emotional connection, it is very hard to go into reverse.''
* Don't flirt. ''That is how affairs start,'' says Bonnie Eaker Weil, whose Web site, www.makeupdontbreakup .com, features tips for preventing infidelity. ''Flirting is not part of an innocent friendship. If you think there might be a problem with someone you flirt with, there probably is a problem.''
* Recognize that work can be a danger zone. ''Don't lunch or take private coffee breaks with the same person all the time,'' psychologist Shirley Glass says.
* Beware of the lure of the Internet. ''Emotional affairs develop quickly, in maybe a few days or weeks online, where it might take a year at the office,'' Young says. ''There is safety behind the computer screen.''
* Keep old flames from reigniting. ''If you value your marriage, think twice about having lunch with one,'' Glass says. Invite your partner along.
* Value the intimacy of your marriage. ''Reveal as much of yourself to one another as possible,'' Atlanta psychiatrist Frank Pittman says. ''You will find it less necessary to form an intimate friendship with someone else.''
* Make sure your social network supports marriage. ''Surround yourself with happily married friends who don't believe in fooling around,'' Glass says.
The SKM Chronicles (WARNING: Very Long Update) - 06/18/07 03:25 PM
Hi Everyone.
I know there are a lot of new people here who do not know my story. A year ago, I ended a 6 month EA/PA, and really didn’t know what I wanted out of life, out of my marriage - or even out of myself. At the time, I confessed the A to my H, I really wasn’t sure what I was doing. I didn’t know how the A started, I didn’t know what I was doing, I didn’t even know who I was anymore. When I told my H about the EA/PA, I told him that I wanted to try and work things out - that I loved him and I didn’t know how this could have happened to us. In my mind, I was so confused, that I kind of told myself that I would “give it a year” to see what would happen. That if “things” didn’t get better, work out, whatever - then my H and I both would have to decide what to do.
Anyway, in April, it will have been 1 year since the EA/PA ended for good. My H and I are going to the Outer Banks for vacation, but I am planning several surprises for my H - to thank him for his love, kindness, compassion and patience over the past year. He really is the love of my life.
The following, I thought might be kind of interesting for some, but mainly, it was kind of a cleansing experience for myself - to see where I started and how far my H and I have come in recovery. It's a collection of some of my posts at various points in recovery.
I know we still have a long life/marriage ahead of us, but I thought I’d share the following. . .so, that BS and WS both can see that there is hope under the worst of situations. Again, THIS IS LONG, and I pretty much gathered all of this for my own development, but. . .If you find yourself needing something to read, to give you hope whatever your situation, here it is, the SKM CHRONICLES.
"Low-Life Slug Days(3 Months After DDay)
Right now, every day, I feel like this huge failure. Even though I know I've been forgiven by God and my H, I still feel pretty worthless. It's like I view everyone else on this higher level, an even level where no one has cheated, lied or gotten into trouble - and by the choices I made, I'm living on this sub-human level. I not only hurt the one person that I truly love, but I've completely blown any self-respect I may have had for myself.”
I've have asked my husband Why do you love me? Why do you stay with me when all I do is cry? Maybe it would be easier for me to leave? Each time, my H answers those questions lovingly, honestly and patiently. He loves me, he wants to spend the rest of his life with me. I guess he sees some good in me that I just can't right now.”
Panic & Stupid Questions (4 Months After DDay)
Today he (OM) calls. Just a few minutes ago. I'm in such a panic, my heart is in my throat. I truly don't know what to do. I know that I don't love this person, but can you ever be friends? In my mind, I think I crossed that line a long time ago, and it's too late to be friends. I really feel up-rooted right now. I don't want to hurt my H, I don't want to hurt my marriage, I just really need some to tell me what to do. If your reading, please respond.
My H is aware of the contact, but I didn't tell him about the first phone call until a week had past. Why? I don't know - even though there are probably a lot of theories out there. But for that one week, I felt absolutely miserable - not that I was starting anything up or wanted to, but I felt like I didn't say stop calling me strong enough. I'm a whimp. I have trouble saying no (and that's quite obvious).
I'll tell my H tonight, see what he thinks, get his help. I just hate unloading all of this stuff on him. I feel so darn selfish, it's all "me, me, me." Will it ever end? In my heart, I know it will eventually, and I know he stands with me. I don't want to be mean to the OM, but my H is more important to me than anyone else in this world. So, I just have to fix my focus again. When I posted earlier, I physically felt like I was going to vomit.
“I Don’t Know” - 4 ½ Months After DDay
As a betrayer, I give a lot of "I don't know" answers to my H - even now that we're almost 5 months into recovery. I don't use the "I don't know" response to get out of answering a tough question or to spare my H's feelings, I honestly don't know.
I don't know why the A happened, I don't know why I was attracted to this person, I don't know why I still think about the OM (occasionally), and I don't know why I cry sometimes, I don't know why I look distant, I don't know why I don't feel "happy" right now. I think they're genuine answers to difficult questions.
Well, everyday I'm with my H, I see how wonderful, caring and loving he is. He truly loves me - even after all I've put him through. He knows when something is wrong, and he cares enough to find out what it is. He's my best friend and an awesome H.
The love I have for my H may not be the same as when we first got married, but I think we will eventually have a stronger love.
High Expectations and “The Vacation” - 5 Months After DDay
I guess I expected the clouds to disappear and the skies to open - that the magic wand would have been waved and everything would be perfect - everything would go back to normal. Well, I guess my lesson learned is to be careful for what you wish for - because everything DID go back to normal. We were bickering over small things, I was irritable, I was moody, I was having doubts once again, I was thinking about the OM - again - I was thinking way too much.
Anyway, when we got home, I asked my H how he thought our vacation was - he said he had a great time. I asked him to rank it among other vacations that we had taken, and he gave it a B+. He asked me what I thought, and I said (excuse my verbiage) I thought it sucked. And he asked why, so I told him how I was feeling - what I had expected - that it wasn't anybody's fault (maybe even more my fault than his), I just wished it would have been different - more loving than bickering. And it wasn't all bickering, but I guess that's what I focused on - I guess it was my perception, I don't know if it was warped or what - but my H thought things went great. But I gave the vacation a C - average, nothing spectacular.
I then asked my H to name five things that were good about the trip - his number one answer was that he got to spend it with me. I melted.
I guess I finally realized that we may not have a perfect marriage - but we're trying.
Remorse, Again - 5 ½ Months After DDay
But, I'm having those feelings all over again - that I'm worthless, that I don't know why my H still loves me - even after the affair, even after I told him that our vacation sucked.
When you're younger, you always try to think about who you will be when you grow up, what you'll be doing . . .Well, I don't really like the person I've become, or the type of person I represent.
Now, I realize that I don't really like who I am, what I did. I cry most of the time - instead of laugh. I'm irritable and moody - not loving or lovable. I make no positive contributions to my life or anyone else's. My H deserves better than me, the world could do without me. (Have you noticed that the pity party has started?)
The Freakin’ Plates - 6 Months After DDay
Lately, I've been trying to do nice things for my H - buying him little things, calling him, e-mailing him. . .trying to do my share of rebuilding our marriage. But he can get into bad moods, too, and the other night he wanted me to move so that he could get some plates out for dinner. . .And I said that the plates in the dishwasher are clean, let me get two out of there. . .I figured, hey no sense getting out new plates then putting away more plates. . .They were all clean, right. . .call me lazy. . .but he just looked at me with this disgusted look. . .Mind you, I have been trying really hard to change and not be so selfish. . .and I was in a really good mood - for once, those seem hard to come by, at least in the early stages. . .But anyway, no thank you for getting the plates out, nothing. . .that didn't bother me, but I could tell he wasn't happy . . .because if you don't do it his way, well, you just aren't doing it right. . .I don't want to sound mean, but we got into a little tiff - about freakin plates!
That led to me thinking, what did I do wrong, do you still love me, are you always going to love me. . .For a WS, I think we, in the back of our minds are still worried that our Hs haven't really forgiven us - that if it were so easy for us to have an affair (especially since I wasn't looking for one) then when I'm a monster, or get cranky. . .will he say "that's it, that's enough." It scares me to think that he would leave me. . .but it's a very real fear. . .I think mainly because I haven't actually forgiven myself and that maybe - even though he's always been faithful to me - I could stand to lose him. . .That I did this horrible thing and a plate or a look could send him over the edge and packing. . .
Coming To My Senses? - 7 Months After DDay
I guess for me. . .it has been 3 months since absolute no contact, it's been over 6 months since I ended the affair. . .and in all honesty, I finally see and realize that I never loved the OM - it was an infatuation - it was someone making me feel special, making me feel attractive, making me feel happy. . .Yeah, I guess he was meeting some of my needs, whatever they were at the time. . .but now, after three months of no contact, I really can see the relationship for what it was - it wasn't love.
Sometimes, I feel like we take each other for granted, but you know I would rather be working on my marriage (to the greatest guy in the world) than maintaining contact with the OM. . .My H really is my best friend and I cannot imagine my life without him in it. . .Sometimes, it takes that realization for the WS to break out of the fog. . .For me, I finally decided that I could not hurt my H anymore, that I had to give 100% to my marriage, and after 6 months, things have gotten better.
The affair is nothing but an illusion of happiness and that true happiness comes from within.
I myself am a WS spouse, and sometimes I lash out at my H, and at times it seems like I am one huge blob of irritableness, insensitivity, selfishness, and negativity. I feel like a walking nightmare sometimes. . .
There are days I just want to quit my job and sell coconuts on the beach - but deep down I know that will never happen.
More Revelations - 8 Months After DDay
At the time, I knew my H was a loving and patient person. But, now, after 7 months, I am finally starting to really appreciate what he has gone through, for "us." And we're finally starting to meet each others' needs -instead of my H just trying to meet my needs.
I'm learning and growing too. I cannot change the past - I'm just learning to live with it. But, if a Genie came along and granted me one wish - it would be that this whole thing never would have happened. So, I consider the affair a mistake - cause if I had to do it over again, I would have chosen not to have one.
But for me, the affair brought out everything that was "ugly" in me as far as my character was concerned. I lied more and cheated more than I ever thought possible. I hurt and caused pain beyond what I thought humanly possible. Yes, I am a better person today than I was during the affair. But the credit doesn't go to the OM, to my H, or even to me. For me, the fact that I am a "better" person today - well, the credit belongs to God.
Remorse, Again and June Cleaver - 8 Months After DDay
I'm doing okay I guess. I have days were I feel really upbeat and then there are days I just feel blah. The past few days I've been pretty blah. Lately, I guess I've just been thinking too much.
I guess I've just been thinking a lot about how much time I have wasted in this whole affair mess - I don't know. I think it's a whole new level of remorse - not as severe, but different. And I know, I can't change the past, I need to rejoice in today - but today, I just regret the time that I have missed out on.
I KNOW it's stupid so don't get mad at me - I just feel like "what kind of mother would I make anyway?" I'm not exactly June Cleaver. . .And I think about how children are a blessing from God, and maybe, well, maybe I just don't deserve that kind of blessing now.
Tis the Season To Be Jolly - 9 Months After DDay
This past weekend, my H and I went to two Christmas Parties - one was being held by a mutual friend and one was being held primarily by one of my friends. We went to both, but on both nights of the parties, it took all I had to get myself together and to get myself into a "social" mood.
No one knows about my A - except for me, my H and the OM So, whenever I go into a social situation with friends, I always feel like I'm keeping this dark, nasty secret - that on top of all the bad feelings I've been having lately, well, throw alcohol into the mix - and I'm just a disaster waiting to happen.
In fact, last night I sat in the living room and just cried my eyes out while my H put up our Christmas tree. I didn't even have the energy this year to get a tree, and I always have a tree - even make a big event out of decorating it.
All WSs have their crosses to bear - mine is learning to forgive myself, and it's been very very hard. If I don't watch it or shake out of those "remorseful" periods, I am no better of a recovered WS than someone who is still involved in an affair.
I think the one thing that has helped my H and I get through this is open and honest communication. And I guess, for me at least, that my H would just sit in silence with me if I didn't feel like talking, he would ask questions, he would ask follow-up, probing questions to get at how I was feeling, but the most important thing was that he was willing to listen to what I had to say and at least try to understand where I was coming from.
I mean, he doesn't know what I'm going through - or what I went through - or why it happened, but he listens with an open mind. It's kind of like putting antiseptic on a wound, at first all this honest communication stings, but I think it has helped us to heal. My H has never once berrated me - even though I know I have hurt him and I know I can be frustrating at times. He never gave up on me - and I guess that's what really mattered in the end.
The Idealist - Where Were You a Year Ago? - 10 Months After DDay
I'm a Christian, and while I haven't been a good example of Christian fortitude in the past, I guess my relationship with God has become stronger. So, now, when I read the posts about what people wish for the OP (and I think it should also be said about the WS, too) - no matter how horrible the OP/WS has been, I guess I just get "sad" to hear all this anger and bitterness. I'm a very introspective person - like you probably couldn't tell- but I think a lot about everything. I'm not saying that people shouldn't come here and vent. In fact I think everyone has a right to be angry, sad, hurt, whatever by what is happening to them. But, at this point in my recovery, it's just sad that there has to be so much anger and bitterness. Again, perfectly normal and probably okay to feel that way - but when that anger or bitterness makes people say ugly things - I don't know - I am in no way judging people at all - but it just makes me sad.
It does feel good to know that I'm not just shooting blanks - that maybe something I have said has touched someone - anyone. You all have been a blessing to me as well.
What I've Learned - 11 Months(totally plagiarized from a response given to me by Just Learning)
In one year [i] have taken [my] marriage down to its bedrock and found that it was firmly set on bedrock not sifting sand.
In one year [i] have learned that [my] H loves [me] more than he can say or show.
In one year [i] have learned that despite temptation [i] do love [my] H.
In one year [i] have learned to appreciate the good qualities of [my] H.
In one year your H has learned to appreciate the good qualities in you.
In one year [we] both have learned something that many people never learn. That people love and are good to one another not because they are perfect but in spite of their imperfections.
In one year [we] both have learned how to take a marriage to a new depth.
In one year [we] have learned that the future is not that predictable so do the best with the present that you can.
In one year [we] have learned not to forget. So [we won’t] ever forget what [we] have learned.
The reason this year was a success is because [my H and I] refused to let it be a failure."
To all my friends at Marriagebuilders, especially Just Learning, I thank God every day for guiding me to this site. All of the caring people, all of the sharing of ideas, all of the warmth that has come through to me through your responses, well, it’s made life in my little corner of the world a little easier and a little sweeter than when I started.
I will never be able to put into words how much all of you mean to me, and I cannot adequately express my sincere appreciation for the words of encouragement, words of honesty, and words of understanding. There were a thousand times I was ready to give up or give in - but you all wouldn’t let me, my H wouldn't let me. And, all I can say to everyone here is “thank you from the bottom of my heart.” I think my H and I are going to be just fine.
In April, I plan to do the offical one-year post. My H also agreed to post with me - only the second time he has done so.
Anyway - to anyone who read through this - congratulations - this was my LONGEST post, but not my last
I know there are a lot of new people here who do not know my story. A year ago, I ended a 6 month EA/PA, and really didn’t know what I wanted out of life, out of my marriage - or even out of myself. At the time, I confessed the A to my H, I really wasn’t sure what I was doing. I didn’t know how the A started, I didn’t know what I was doing, I didn’t even know who I was anymore. When I told my H about the EA/PA, I told him that I wanted to try and work things out - that I loved him and I didn’t know how this could have happened to us. In my mind, I was so confused, that I kind of told myself that I would “give it a year” to see what would happen. That if “things” didn’t get better, work out, whatever - then my H and I both would have to decide what to do.
Anyway, in April, it will have been 1 year since the EA/PA ended for good. My H and I are going to the Outer Banks for vacation, but I am planning several surprises for my H - to thank him for his love, kindness, compassion and patience over the past year. He really is the love of my life.
The following, I thought might be kind of interesting for some, but mainly, it was kind of a cleansing experience for myself - to see where I started and how far my H and I have come in recovery. It's a collection of some of my posts at various points in recovery.
I know we still have a long life/marriage ahead of us, but I thought I’d share the following. . .so, that BS and WS both can see that there is hope under the worst of situations. Again, THIS IS LONG, and I pretty much gathered all of this for my own development, but. . .If you find yourself needing something to read, to give you hope whatever your situation, here it is, the SKM CHRONICLES.
"Low-Life Slug Days(3 Months After DDay)
Right now, every day, I feel like this huge failure. Even though I know I've been forgiven by God and my H, I still feel pretty worthless. It's like I view everyone else on this higher level, an even level where no one has cheated, lied or gotten into trouble - and by the choices I made, I'm living on this sub-human level. I not only hurt the one person that I truly love, but I've completely blown any self-respect I may have had for myself.”
I've have asked my husband Why do you love me? Why do you stay with me when all I do is cry? Maybe it would be easier for me to leave? Each time, my H answers those questions lovingly, honestly and patiently. He loves me, he wants to spend the rest of his life with me. I guess he sees some good in me that I just can't right now.”
Panic & Stupid Questions (4 Months After DDay)
Today he (OM) calls. Just a few minutes ago. I'm in such a panic, my heart is in my throat. I truly don't know what to do. I know that I don't love this person, but can you ever be friends? In my mind, I think I crossed that line a long time ago, and it's too late to be friends. I really feel up-rooted right now. I don't want to hurt my H, I don't want to hurt my marriage, I just really need some to tell me what to do. If your reading, please respond.
My H is aware of the contact, but I didn't tell him about the first phone call until a week had past. Why? I don't know - even though there are probably a lot of theories out there. But for that one week, I felt absolutely miserable - not that I was starting anything up or wanted to, but I felt like I didn't say stop calling me strong enough. I'm a whimp. I have trouble saying no (and that's quite obvious).
I'll tell my H tonight, see what he thinks, get his help. I just hate unloading all of this stuff on him. I feel so darn selfish, it's all "me, me, me." Will it ever end? In my heart, I know it will eventually, and I know he stands with me. I don't want to be mean to the OM, but my H is more important to me than anyone else in this world. So, I just have to fix my focus again. When I posted earlier, I physically felt like I was going to vomit.
“I Don’t Know” - 4 ½ Months After DDay
As a betrayer, I give a lot of "I don't know" answers to my H - even now that we're almost 5 months into recovery. I don't use the "I don't know" response to get out of answering a tough question or to spare my H's feelings, I honestly don't know.
I don't know why the A happened, I don't know why I was attracted to this person, I don't know why I still think about the OM (occasionally), and I don't know why I cry sometimes, I don't know why I look distant, I don't know why I don't feel "happy" right now. I think they're genuine answers to difficult questions.
Well, everyday I'm with my H, I see how wonderful, caring and loving he is. He truly loves me - even after all I've put him through. He knows when something is wrong, and he cares enough to find out what it is. He's my best friend and an awesome H.
The love I have for my H may not be the same as when we first got married, but I think we will eventually have a stronger love.
High Expectations and “The Vacation” - 5 Months After DDay
I guess I expected the clouds to disappear and the skies to open - that the magic wand would have been waved and everything would be perfect - everything would go back to normal. Well, I guess my lesson learned is to be careful for what you wish for - because everything DID go back to normal. We were bickering over small things, I was irritable, I was moody, I was having doubts once again, I was thinking about the OM - again - I was thinking way too much.
Anyway, when we got home, I asked my H how he thought our vacation was - he said he had a great time. I asked him to rank it among other vacations that we had taken, and he gave it a B+. He asked me what I thought, and I said (excuse my verbiage) I thought it sucked. And he asked why, so I told him how I was feeling - what I had expected - that it wasn't anybody's fault (maybe even more my fault than his), I just wished it would have been different - more loving than bickering. And it wasn't all bickering, but I guess that's what I focused on - I guess it was my perception, I don't know if it was warped or what - but my H thought things went great. But I gave the vacation a C - average, nothing spectacular.
I then asked my H to name five things that were good about the trip - his number one answer was that he got to spend it with me. I melted.
I guess I finally realized that we may not have a perfect marriage - but we're trying.
Remorse, Again - 5 ½ Months After DDay
But, I'm having those feelings all over again - that I'm worthless, that I don't know why my H still loves me - even after the affair, even after I told him that our vacation sucked.
When you're younger, you always try to think about who you will be when you grow up, what you'll be doing . . .Well, I don't really like the person I've become, or the type of person I represent.
Now, I realize that I don't really like who I am, what I did. I cry most of the time - instead of laugh. I'm irritable and moody - not loving or lovable. I make no positive contributions to my life or anyone else's. My H deserves better than me, the world could do without me. (Have you noticed that the pity party has started?)
The Freakin’ Plates - 6 Months After DDay
Lately, I've been trying to do nice things for my H - buying him little things, calling him, e-mailing him. . .trying to do my share of rebuilding our marriage. But he can get into bad moods, too, and the other night he wanted me to move so that he could get some plates out for dinner. . .And I said that the plates in the dishwasher are clean, let me get two out of there. . .I figured, hey no sense getting out new plates then putting away more plates. . .They were all clean, right. . .call me lazy. . .but he just looked at me with this disgusted look. . .Mind you, I have been trying really hard to change and not be so selfish. . .and I was in a really good mood - for once, those seem hard to come by, at least in the early stages. . .But anyway, no thank you for getting the plates out, nothing. . .that didn't bother me, but I could tell he wasn't happy . . .because if you don't do it his way, well, you just aren't doing it right. . .I don't want to sound mean, but we got into a little tiff - about freakin plates!
That led to me thinking, what did I do wrong, do you still love me, are you always going to love me. . .For a WS, I think we, in the back of our minds are still worried that our Hs haven't really forgiven us - that if it were so easy for us to have an affair (especially since I wasn't looking for one) then when I'm a monster, or get cranky. . .will he say "that's it, that's enough." It scares me to think that he would leave me. . .but it's a very real fear. . .I think mainly because I haven't actually forgiven myself and that maybe - even though he's always been faithful to me - I could stand to lose him. . .That I did this horrible thing and a plate or a look could send him over the edge and packing. . .
Coming To My Senses? - 7 Months After DDay
I guess for me. . .it has been 3 months since absolute no contact, it's been over 6 months since I ended the affair. . .and in all honesty, I finally see and realize that I never loved the OM - it was an infatuation - it was someone making me feel special, making me feel attractive, making me feel happy. . .Yeah, I guess he was meeting some of my needs, whatever they were at the time. . .but now, after three months of no contact, I really can see the relationship for what it was - it wasn't love.
Sometimes, I feel like we take each other for granted, but you know I would rather be working on my marriage (to the greatest guy in the world) than maintaining contact with the OM. . .My H really is my best friend and I cannot imagine my life without him in it. . .Sometimes, it takes that realization for the WS to break out of the fog. . .For me, I finally decided that I could not hurt my H anymore, that I had to give 100% to my marriage, and after 6 months, things have gotten better.
The affair is nothing but an illusion of happiness and that true happiness comes from within.
I myself am a WS spouse, and sometimes I lash out at my H, and at times it seems like I am one huge blob of irritableness, insensitivity, selfishness, and negativity. I feel like a walking nightmare sometimes. . .
There are days I just want to quit my job and sell coconuts on the beach - but deep down I know that will never happen.
More Revelations - 8 Months After DDay
At the time, I knew my H was a loving and patient person. But, now, after 7 months, I am finally starting to really appreciate what he has gone through, for "us." And we're finally starting to meet each others' needs -instead of my H just trying to meet my needs.
I'm learning and growing too. I cannot change the past - I'm just learning to live with it. But, if a Genie came along and granted me one wish - it would be that this whole thing never would have happened. So, I consider the affair a mistake - cause if I had to do it over again, I would have chosen not to have one.
But for me, the affair brought out everything that was "ugly" in me as far as my character was concerned. I lied more and cheated more than I ever thought possible. I hurt and caused pain beyond what I thought humanly possible. Yes, I am a better person today than I was during the affair. But the credit doesn't go to the OM, to my H, or even to me. For me, the fact that I am a "better" person today - well, the credit belongs to God.
Remorse, Again and June Cleaver - 8 Months After DDay
I'm doing okay I guess. I have days were I feel really upbeat and then there are days I just feel blah. The past few days I've been pretty blah. Lately, I guess I've just been thinking too much.
I guess I've just been thinking a lot about how much time I have wasted in this whole affair mess - I don't know. I think it's a whole new level of remorse - not as severe, but different. And I know, I can't change the past, I need to rejoice in today - but today, I just regret the time that I have missed out on.
I KNOW it's stupid so don't get mad at me - I just feel like "what kind of mother would I make anyway?" I'm not exactly June Cleaver. . .And I think about how children are a blessing from God, and maybe, well, maybe I just don't deserve that kind of blessing now.
Tis the Season To Be Jolly - 9 Months After DDay
This past weekend, my H and I went to two Christmas Parties - one was being held by a mutual friend and one was being held primarily by one of my friends. We went to both, but on both nights of the parties, it took all I had to get myself together and to get myself into a "social" mood.
No one knows about my A - except for me, my H and the OM So, whenever I go into a social situation with friends, I always feel like I'm keeping this dark, nasty secret - that on top of all the bad feelings I've been having lately, well, throw alcohol into the mix - and I'm just a disaster waiting to happen.
In fact, last night I sat in the living room and just cried my eyes out while my H put up our Christmas tree. I didn't even have the energy this year to get a tree, and I always have a tree - even make a big event out of decorating it.
All WSs have their crosses to bear - mine is learning to forgive myself, and it's been very very hard. If I don't watch it or shake out of those "remorseful" periods, I am no better of a recovered WS than someone who is still involved in an affair.
I think the one thing that has helped my H and I get through this is open and honest communication. And I guess, for me at least, that my H would just sit in silence with me if I didn't feel like talking, he would ask questions, he would ask follow-up, probing questions to get at how I was feeling, but the most important thing was that he was willing to listen to what I had to say and at least try to understand where I was coming from.
I mean, he doesn't know what I'm going through - or what I went through - or why it happened, but he listens with an open mind. It's kind of like putting antiseptic on a wound, at first all this honest communication stings, but I think it has helped us to heal. My H has never once berrated me - even though I know I have hurt him and I know I can be frustrating at times. He never gave up on me - and I guess that's what really mattered in the end.
The Idealist - Where Were You a Year Ago? - 10 Months After DDay
I'm a Christian, and while I haven't been a good example of Christian fortitude in the past, I guess my relationship with God has become stronger. So, now, when I read the posts about what people wish for the OP (and I think it should also be said about the WS, too) - no matter how horrible the OP/WS has been, I guess I just get "sad" to hear all this anger and bitterness. I'm a very introspective person - like you probably couldn't tell- but I think a lot about everything. I'm not saying that people shouldn't come here and vent. In fact I think everyone has a right to be angry, sad, hurt, whatever by what is happening to them. But, at this point in my recovery, it's just sad that there has to be so much anger and bitterness. Again, perfectly normal and probably okay to feel that way - but when that anger or bitterness makes people say ugly things - I don't know - I am in no way judging people at all - but it just makes me sad.
It does feel good to know that I'm not just shooting blanks - that maybe something I have said has touched someone - anyone. You all have been a blessing to me as well.
What I've Learned - 11 Months(totally plagiarized from a response given to me by Just Learning)
In one year [i] have taken [my] marriage down to its bedrock and found that it was firmly set on bedrock not sifting sand.
In one year [i] have learned that [my] H loves [me] more than he can say or show.
In one year [i] have learned that despite temptation [i] do love [my] H.
In one year [i] have learned to appreciate the good qualities of [my] H.
In one year your H has learned to appreciate the good qualities in you.
In one year [we] both have learned something that many people never learn. That people love and are good to one another not because they are perfect but in spite of their imperfections.
In one year [we] both have learned how to take a marriage to a new depth.
In one year [we] have learned that the future is not that predictable so do the best with the present that you can.
In one year [we] have learned not to forget. So [we won’t] ever forget what [we] have learned.
The reason this year was a success is because [my H and I] refused to let it be a failure."
To all my friends at Marriagebuilders, especially Just Learning, I thank God every day for guiding me to this site. All of the caring people, all of the sharing of ideas, all of the warmth that has come through to me through your responses, well, it’s made life in my little corner of the world a little easier and a little sweeter than when I started.
I will never be able to put into words how much all of you mean to me, and I cannot adequately express my sincere appreciation for the words of encouragement, words of honesty, and words of understanding. There were a thousand times I was ready to give up or give in - but you all wouldn’t let me, my H wouldn't let me. And, all I can say to everyone here is “thank you from the bottom of my heart.” I think my H and I are going to be just fine.
In April, I plan to do the offical one-year post. My H also agreed to post with me - only the second time he has done so.
Anyway - to anyone who read through this - congratulations - this was my LONGEST post, but not my last
*video message* from Dr Harley - 06/20/07 03:26 AM
*LINK HERE* [color:"red"] see Dr Harley deliver his message about marriage [/color]
BobPure thanks Dr. Harley - 07/02/07 02:50 PM
Thanks, Dr Harley from the bottom of my mended heart
Dear Dr. Harley
I arrived at this website a broken man, almost three years to the day. I was loveless, hopeless, Godless. My every assumption about God and man were smashed. It was d-day. My baby was in an affair.
By some miracle I found this site. While many other sites provided summary info - trailers for the meat of the book or course that the site was intended to help sell, the MB basic concepts provided me with a thorough resource to give me a shred of hope that I might just be able to effect the situation positively.
I read those basic concepts and many caring folks here who knew MB well helped me to apply them in my situation.
I bought "surviving an affair " ( £7.99 GBP from Amazon for anyone interested) and found it shed a little light on the details of the basic principles I had learned so very well.
Within two months I was in a rigorous plan A, I had exposed to OMs GF and the affair was being shot to pieces like tin can at a BB shoot.
By the end of 2004 my family was together and on a fairly loving vacation. God Knows we still had far to go, but the transformation was enormous. OM had become a hateful irrelevance as opposed to my Squid's "soul mate". Squid had become a frightened , regretful FWW, not a raving WS.
My kids were becoming more stable once more.
I was stronger and more confidant than in years.
My total revenue to your organization so far, Sir, I am sorry to say was only £7.99 - the price of "surviving...". * blush *
Since then, my family's life has transformed. Our home is now a box filled with people who love each other very much and who have tools to handle issues.
We are happy, yet hopeful of even more yield from our application of MB in our marriage in future.
In the last 3 years I bought "buyers, renters and freeloaders", "lovebusters" and " his needs / her needs" also from Amazon. The extra cost of these was approximately £30. Once again they shed more light on principles already generously explained on your website in basic principles and Q&A.
I sit here a few days short of the three year anniversary of D-day with an enviable marriage, great self confidence and a toolkit of life skills that cost me, in total £37.99 to MB.
I could cry in gratitude sir. My studies have led me to be asked by my pastor to offer a marrigebuilding course for our community via our little church. What a turnaround for that broken man who first came to you three years ago !
I wanted to tell you my most heartfelt "thank you" for your care in sharing so much with hurting people free of charge. I thank you for rescuing my marriage and my life by proxy.
And I offer up a prayer of thanks for you, and Marriagebuilders in the hope that you may long continue to support us all.
And I apologize for my contributing only £37.99 in return for all this wonderful blessing !
Dear Dr. Harley
I arrived at this website a broken man, almost three years to the day. I was loveless, hopeless, Godless. My every assumption about God and man were smashed. It was d-day. My baby was in an affair.
By some miracle I found this site. While many other sites provided summary info - trailers for the meat of the book or course that the site was intended to help sell, the MB basic concepts provided me with a thorough resource to give me a shred of hope that I might just be able to effect the situation positively.
I read those basic concepts and many caring folks here who knew MB well helped me to apply them in my situation.
I bought "surviving an affair " ( £7.99 GBP from Amazon for anyone interested) and found it shed a little light on the details of the basic principles I had learned so very well.
Within two months I was in a rigorous plan A, I had exposed to OMs GF and the affair was being shot to pieces like tin can at a BB shoot.
By the end of 2004 my family was together and on a fairly loving vacation. God Knows we still had far to go, but the transformation was enormous. OM had become a hateful irrelevance as opposed to my Squid's "soul mate". Squid had become a frightened , regretful FWW, not a raving WS.
My kids were becoming more stable once more.
I was stronger and more confidant than in years.
My total revenue to your organization so far, Sir, I am sorry to say was only £7.99 - the price of "surviving...". * blush *
Since then, my family's life has transformed. Our home is now a box filled with people who love each other very much and who have tools to handle issues.
We are happy, yet hopeful of even more yield from our application of MB in our marriage in future.
In the last 3 years I bought "buyers, renters and freeloaders", "lovebusters" and " his needs / her needs" also from Amazon. The extra cost of these was approximately £30. Once again they shed more light on principles already generously explained on your website in basic principles and Q&A.
I sit here a few days short of the three year anniversary of D-day with an enviable marriage, great self confidence and a toolkit of life skills that cost me, in total £37.99 to MB.
I could cry in gratitude sir. My studies have led me to be asked by my pastor to offer a marrigebuilding course for our community via our little church. What a turnaround for that broken man who first came to you three years ago !
I wanted to tell you my most heartfelt "thank you" for your care in sharing so much with hurting people free of charge. I thank you for rescuing my marriage and my life by proxy.
And I offer up a prayer of thanks for you, and Marriagebuilders in the hope that you may long continue to support us all.
And I apologize for my contributing only £37.99 in return for all this wonderful blessing !
Pulling Your Own Strings : brought to you by Suzet* - 07/06/07 12:50 PM
The following passages are from the book “Pulling your own strings” by Dr Wayne W. Dyer. My hope is that new BS’s on these boards who feel unwilling, unsure and/or afraid to apply effective MB principles (like exposure) to help bust up their WS’s A’s, will find this thread helpful and will give them the necessary courage to apply and take these steps. On different occasions, I’ve already posted this to two BS’s, but I thought it would be a good idea to put it on a new thread where more people can read it. Here it is:
A NEW LOOK AT STRENGTH
Being strong in no way implies being powerful, manipulative, or even forceful. By operating from strength, I mean leading your life from the twin positions of worth and effectiveness.
You are always a worthy, important human being, and there is never any reason to conduct yourself, or allow others to pull or push you, in any direction in which your basic merit as a human being is challenged. Moreover, in any situation you have a choice between (1) being effective and reaching your goals, or (2) being effective and, ultimately, being restricted from doing what you desire. In most cases – not all, but most – you can be effective, and in all cased, you can operate from the position of your own intrinsic worth as a person.
In dealing with your self-worth, remind yourself that by definition it must come from yourself. You are worthy not because others say so, or because of what you accomplish, or because of your achievements. Rather, you are precious and you say so, because you believe it, and most importantly, because you ACT as if you are worthy.
Being a non-victim starts with the principle of saying and believing that you are valuable, but it is put into practice when you begin behaving as if you are worthwhile. This is the essence of strength, and of course, of not being a victim. You can’t act out of needs to be powerful or intimidating, but you must act from strength which guarantees you will be treated as a worthy person simply because you believe down to your very soul that you do count.
Being effective is not an universal given, as is your own self-esteem. At times you will not attain your goals. Occasionally you will find people irrationally impossible to deal with, or encounter situations where you’ll have to back off or compromise to avoid being further victimized. You can, however, cut these “losses” down to an unavoidable minimum, and more important, you can eliminate totally the emotional upsets of being thwarted now and then.
Being effective simply means you apply all your personal resources and use all available strategies, short of stepping on others, to achieve your objectives. Your own worth and personal effectiveness are the cornerstones of operating from strength.
Keep in mind that a breakdown of the word invalid, meaning a physically weak person, comes out in valid. By living your life from a position of emotional weakness you are not only a loser most of the time, but you virtually invalidate yourself as a person. “But”, “you must ask, “why would I ever do a thing like that to myself?”
FEAR: SOMETHING THAT RESIDES IN YOU
Most of the reasons you’d give yourself for not operating from strength involve some kind of fear of “what will happen if…”. You may even admit that you are often “paralyzed by fear.” But what is it that you think comes from somewhere out of the blue and immobilizes you? If you started on a scavenger hunt today and you were told to bring back a bucket full of fear, you could look forever, but you’d always come home empty-handed. Fear simply does not exist out there in the world. It is something that you do to yourself by thinking fearful thoughts and having fearsome expectations. No one in this world can hurt you unless you allow it, and then of course you are hurting yourself.
You may be victimized because you’ve convinced yourself that some person won’t like you, or that some disaster will befall you, or that there are any of thousands of other excuses, if you do things your way. But the fear is internal, and is supported by a neat little system of thoughts which you cleverly use to avoid dealing directly with your self-imposed dread. You may express these thoughts to yourself in sentences like the following:
I’ll fail
I’ll look stupid
I’m unattractive
I’m not sure
They might hurt me
They might not like me
I’d feel too guilty
I’ll lose everything
They might get mad at me
U might lose my job
God won’t let me into heaven
Something bad will probably happen if I do
I know I’ll feel awful if I say that
I won’t be able to live with myself.
Thoughts like these betray and internal support system and maintain a fear-based personality which keeps you from operating from strength. Every time you reach inward and come up with one of these fear sentences, you’ve consulted your weakness mentality, and the victim stamp will soon be evident on your forehead.
If you have to have a guarantee that everything will be all right before you take a risk, you will never get off first base, because the future is promised to no one. There are no guarantees on life’s services to you, so you’ll have to toss away your panicky thoughts if you want to get what you want out of life. Moreover, almost all your fearful thoughts are purely head trips. The disasters you envision will rarely surface. Remember the ancient sage who said, “I’m an old man, and I’ve had many troubles, most of which have never happened.”
The brilliant English author and lexicographer Samuel Johnson once wrote,
All fear is painful, and when it conduces not to safety, is painful without use – Every consideration, therefore, by which groundless terrors may be removed, adds something to human happiness.
Johnosn’s words are still vital some two hundered years after he wrote them. If your fears are groundless, they are useless, and removing them is indispensable for you happiness.
EXPERIENCE AS AN ANTIDOTE TO FEAR
You cannot learn anything, undermine any fear, unless you are willing to DO something. Doing, the antidote to fear and most self-defeating behavior, is shunned by most victims who operate from weakness. But the maximum of education that makes the most sense to me is:
I hear: I forget
I see: I remember
I Do: I understand
You will never know what it feels like to get rid of a fear until you risk behavior that confronts it. Just as no one can teach you fear, no one can teach you not to be afraid. Your fears are your own unique sensations, and you alone are going to have to challenge them. You just have to get out there, grovel around, fail a lot, try this, change that – in a word, experiment. But can you really imagine that experimenting and experiencing, will decrease your wisdom and chances for success? If you refuse to give yourself the necessary experiences, you are saying to yourself, “I refuse to know”. And refusing to know will make you weak and assure your victimization by others.
You can’t know strengths unless you are willing to test yourself - and if all tests always succeeded, there would be no need for them, so you can’t stop testing whenever you fail. When you get to the point where you are willing to attempt anything that seems worthwhile to YOU (not them, you), then you will understand experience as the antidote to fear. Benjamin Disraeli, the witty nineteenth-century English statesman and author, said it quite succinctly in his earlier writings:
Experience is the child of Thought, and Thought is the child of Action. We cannot learn men from books.
First you think, and then you do, and only thirdly do you know. And that is how you challenge all the timidity that keeps you a victim.
COURAGE: A NECESSARY COMMODITY FOR NON-VICTIMS
Willingness to confront fear is called courage. You will find it very hard to overcome your fears unless you are willing to muster up some valor, even though you will find that you already posses it if you are willing to realize it.
Courage means flying in the face of criticism, relying on yourself, being willing to accept and learn from the consequences of all your choices. It means believing enough in yourself and in living your life as you choose so that you cut the strings whose ends other people hold and use to pull you in contrary directions.
You can make your mental leaps toward courage by repeatedly asking yourself: ”What is the worst thing that could happen to me if…?” When you consider the possibilities realistically, you will almost always find that nothing damaging or painful can happen when you take the necessary steps away from being a knee-jerk victim. Usually you will find that, like a child afraid of the dark, you are afraid of nothing, because nothing is the worst thing that could happen to you. Failing generally means ending up where you started, and while it may not be utopia, it is certainly a situation you can handle. Cora Harris, the American author, said it this say:
The bravest thing you can do when you are not brave is to profess courage and act accordingly.
I like the idea of professing courage, because the important thing to do is act, rather than to try to convince yourself of how brave you are or aren’t at any given moment.
UNDERSTANDING YOUR OPERATING-FROM-WEAKNESS DIVIDENDS
Any time you catch yourself paralyzed by fear – in a world, victimized – ask yourself: “What am I getting out of this?” Your first temptation will be to answer, “Nothing”. But go a little deeper and you’ll ask why people find it easier to be victims than to take strong stances of their own, to pull their own strings.
You can seemingly avoid a lot of risks, avoid ever “putting yourself on the spot”, by simply giving up and letting others take control. If things go badly you can blame whoever is pulling your strings, call them bad names, and neatly avoid your own greater responsibility. At the same time you can conveniently avoid having to change; you are “free” to remain a “good little victim”, getting regular dividends of phony approval from the victimizers of the world.
The payoff of weakness almost all come out of your avoidance of risks. Keep in mind that it is crucial for you to always be appraised of your own reward system, self-defeating though it may be, as you work toward improving the quality of your life in every behavioral and mental dimension.
NEVER PLACE ANYONE’S HEAD ABOVE YOUR OWN
If you are ready to give “operating form strength” a serious go, you will have to stop placing other people above yourself in value and worth. Whenever you give another person more prestige than you give yourself, you have set yourself yup to be victimized.
Strength is a word I used with a great amount of pre-thought. I’ve been careful to define it in explicit terms. Being cantankerous, unruly, obnoxious, deceitful, and the like is not advocated, since it will almost always turn away the very people you want to have help you. I am, of course, supportive of being able to be obnoxious if it is called for on extreme occasions. You just don’t have to be passive or weak as you walk through your life steps, and that is really the fundamental lesson of this chapter. Be a worthy, effective, self-important you, rather than a sniveling permission-seeking victim who believes that everyone is more important than you are.
ISN’T IT IRONIC – PEOPLE RESPECT STRENGTH
If you really want to be respected, take a hard look at those who are so expert at getting respect. You will quickly deduce that you will not gain anyone’s respect, including your own, by operating from weakness. You must set aside the idea that people will not like you if you behave assertively.
Whenever you find yourself standing up for what you believe and wondering what everyone else is thinking, rest assured that if you took a private poll, you would find almost everyone secretly pulling for you, and admiring your attitude of toughness. So not setting your goals according to which ones will win the immediate approval of others may, paradoxically, help you get their approval in the long run – and no one is denying that if feels better to receive approval than to be rejected. It might just be comforting to know that the people whose approval you are most concerned about are much more prone to respect you when you behave from your own convictions than when you simply tag along and do what is expected of you.
A NEW LOOK AT STRENGTH
Being strong in no way implies being powerful, manipulative, or even forceful. By operating from strength, I mean leading your life from the twin positions of worth and effectiveness.
You are always a worthy, important human being, and there is never any reason to conduct yourself, or allow others to pull or push you, in any direction in which your basic merit as a human being is challenged. Moreover, in any situation you have a choice between (1) being effective and reaching your goals, or (2) being effective and, ultimately, being restricted from doing what you desire. In most cases – not all, but most – you can be effective, and in all cased, you can operate from the position of your own intrinsic worth as a person.
In dealing with your self-worth, remind yourself that by definition it must come from yourself. You are worthy not because others say so, or because of what you accomplish, or because of your achievements. Rather, you are precious and you say so, because you believe it, and most importantly, because you ACT as if you are worthy.
Being a non-victim starts with the principle of saying and believing that you are valuable, but it is put into practice when you begin behaving as if you are worthwhile. This is the essence of strength, and of course, of not being a victim. You can’t act out of needs to be powerful or intimidating, but you must act from strength which guarantees you will be treated as a worthy person simply because you believe down to your very soul that you do count.
Being effective is not an universal given, as is your own self-esteem. At times you will not attain your goals. Occasionally you will find people irrationally impossible to deal with, or encounter situations where you’ll have to back off or compromise to avoid being further victimized. You can, however, cut these “losses” down to an unavoidable minimum, and more important, you can eliminate totally the emotional upsets of being thwarted now and then.
Being effective simply means you apply all your personal resources and use all available strategies, short of stepping on others, to achieve your objectives. Your own worth and personal effectiveness are the cornerstones of operating from strength.
Keep in mind that a breakdown of the word invalid, meaning a physically weak person, comes out in valid. By living your life from a position of emotional weakness you are not only a loser most of the time, but you virtually invalidate yourself as a person. “But”, “you must ask, “why would I ever do a thing like that to myself?”
FEAR: SOMETHING THAT RESIDES IN YOU
Most of the reasons you’d give yourself for not operating from strength involve some kind of fear of “what will happen if…”. You may even admit that you are often “paralyzed by fear.” But what is it that you think comes from somewhere out of the blue and immobilizes you? If you started on a scavenger hunt today and you were told to bring back a bucket full of fear, you could look forever, but you’d always come home empty-handed. Fear simply does not exist out there in the world. It is something that you do to yourself by thinking fearful thoughts and having fearsome expectations. No one in this world can hurt you unless you allow it, and then of course you are hurting yourself.
You may be victimized because you’ve convinced yourself that some person won’t like you, or that some disaster will befall you, or that there are any of thousands of other excuses, if you do things your way. But the fear is internal, and is supported by a neat little system of thoughts which you cleverly use to avoid dealing directly with your self-imposed dread. You may express these thoughts to yourself in sentences like the following:
I’ll fail
I’ll look stupid
I’m unattractive
I’m not sure
They might hurt me
They might not like me
I’d feel too guilty
I’ll lose everything
They might get mad at me
U might lose my job
God won’t let me into heaven
Something bad will probably happen if I do
I know I’ll feel awful if I say that
I won’t be able to live with myself.
Thoughts like these betray and internal support system and maintain a fear-based personality which keeps you from operating from strength. Every time you reach inward and come up with one of these fear sentences, you’ve consulted your weakness mentality, and the victim stamp will soon be evident on your forehead.
If you have to have a guarantee that everything will be all right before you take a risk, you will never get off first base, because the future is promised to no one. There are no guarantees on life’s services to you, so you’ll have to toss away your panicky thoughts if you want to get what you want out of life. Moreover, almost all your fearful thoughts are purely head trips. The disasters you envision will rarely surface. Remember the ancient sage who said, “I’m an old man, and I’ve had many troubles, most of which have never happened.”
The brilliant English author and lexicographer Samuel Johnson once wrote,
All fear is painful, and when it conduces not to safety, is painful without use – Every consideration, therefore, by which groundless terrors may be removed, adds something to human happiness.
Johnosn’s words are still vital some two hundered years after he wrote them. If your fears are groundless, they are useless, and removing them is indispensable for you happiness.
EXPERIENCE AS AN ANTIDOTE TO FEAR
You cannot learn anything, undermine any fear, unless you are willing to DO something. Doing, the antidote to fear and most self-defeating behavior, is shunned by most victims who operate from weakness. But the maximum of education that makes the most sense to me is:
I hear: I forget
I see: I remember
I Do: I understand
You will never know what it feels like to get rid of a fear until you risk behavior that confronts it. Just as no one can teach you fear, no one can teach you not to be afraid. Your fears are your own unique sensations, and you alone are going to have to challenge them. You just have to get out there, grovel around, fail a lot, try this, change that – in a word, experiment. But can you really imagine that experimenting and experiencing, will decrease your wisdom and chances for success? If you refuse to give yourself the necessary experiences, you are saying to yourself, “I refuse to know”. And refusing to know will make you weak and assure your victimization by others.
You can’t know strengths unless you are willing to test yourself - and if all tests always succeeded, there would be no need for them, so you can’t stop testing whenever you fail. When you get to the point where you are willing to attempt anything that seems worthwhile to YOU (not them, you), then you will understand experience as the antidote to fear. Benjamin Disraeli, the witty nineteenth-century English statesman and author, said it quite succinctly in his earlier writings:
Experience is the child of Thought, and Thought is the child of Action. We cannot learn men from books.
First you think, and then you do, and only thirdly do you know. And that is how you challenge all the timidity that keeps you a victim.
COURAGE: A NECESSARY COMMODITY FOR NON-VICTIMS
Willingness to confront fear is called courage. You will find it very hard to overcome your fears unless you are willing to muster up some valor, even though you will find that you already posses it if you are willing to realize it.
Courage means flying in the face of criticism, relying on yourself, being willing to accept and learn from the consequences of all your choices. It means believing enough in yourself and in living your life as you choose so that you cut the strings whose ends other people hold and use to pull you in contrary directions.
You can make your mental leaps toward courage by repeatedly asking yourself: ”What is the worst thing that could happen to me if…?” When you consider the possibilities realistically, you will almost always find that nothing damaging or painful can happen when you take the necessary steps away from being a knee-jerk victim. Usually you will find that, like a child afraid of the dark, you are afraid of nothing, because nothing is the worst thing that could happen to you. Failing generally means ending up where you started, and while it may not be utopia, it is certainly a situation you can handle. Cora Harris, the American author, said it this say:
The bravest thing you can do when you are not brave is to profess courage and act accordingly.
I like the idea of professing courage, because the important thing to do is act, rather than to try to convince yourself of how brave you are or aren’t at any given moment.
UNDERSTANDING YOUR OPERATING-FROM-WEAKNESS DIVIDENDS
Any time you catch yourself paralyzed by fear – in a world, victimized – ask yourself: “What am I getting out of this?” Your first temptation will be to answer, “Nothing”. But go a little deeper and you’ll ask why people find it easier to be victims than to take strong stances of their own, to pull their own strings.
You can seemingly avoid a lot of risks, avoid ever “putting yourself on the spot”, by simply giving up and letting others take control. If things go badly you can blame whoever is pulling your strings, call them bad names, and neatly avoid your own greater responsibility. At the same time you can conveniently avoid having to change; you are “free” to remain a “good little victim”, getting regular dividends of phony approval from the victimizers of the world.
The payoff of weakness almost all come out of your avoidance of risks. Keep in mind that it is crucial for you to always be appraised of your own reward system, self-defeating though it may be, as you work toward improving the quality of your life in every behavioral and mental dimension.
NEVER PLACE ANYONE’S HEAD ABOVE YOUR OWN
If you are ready to give “operating form strength” a serious go, you will have to stop placing other people above yourself in value and worth. Whenever you give another person more prestige than you give yourself, you have set yourself yup to be victimized.
Strength is a word I used with a great amount of pre-thought. I’ve been careful to define it in explicit terms. Being cantankerous, unruly, obnoxious, deceitful, and the like is not advocated, since it will almost always turn away the very people you want to have help you. I am, of course, supportive of being able to be obnoxious if it is called for on extreme occasions. You just don’t have to be passive or weak as you walk through your life steps, and that is really the fundamental lesson of this chapter. Be a worthy, effective, self-important you, rather than a sniveling permission-seeking victim who believes that everyone is more important than you are.
ISN’T IT IRONIC – PEOPLE RESPECT STRENGTH
If you really want to be respected, take a hard look at those who are so expert at getting respect. You will quickly deduce that you will not gain anyone’s respect, including your own, by operating from weakness. You must set aside the idea that people will not like you if you behave assertively.
Whenever you find yourself standing up for what you believe and wondering what everyone else is thinking, rest assured that if you took a private poll, you would find almost everyone secretly pulling for you, and admiring your attitude of toughness. So not setting your goals according to which ones will win the immediate approval of others may, paradoxically, help you get their approval in the long run – and no one is denying that if feels better to receive approval than to be rejected. It might just be comforting to know that the people whose approval you are most concerned about are much more prone to respect you when you behave from your own convictions than when you simply tag along and do what is expected of you.
Mark1952: Fishing Lessons & Marriage Maintenance - 07/11/07 03:11 PM
Re: Fishing lessons:A little maintenance helps a lot
Maintaining What We Have
A few years ago my pickup truck was broken into. It was parked in the lot at work, less than 25 feet from the front door. The street out front is a US highway, but is within the city, so is only about 50 feet from where I was parked.
In broad daylight, between 8:00 and 10:00 in the morning, someone popped the door of my truck cap and removed most of what was in the truck. This included over $3000 worth of tools and nearly as much in fishing tackle. Interestingly, they left the fishing rods which were packed into rod tubes to protect them.
The insurance covered the tackle, but not the tools since they were personal tools but used primarily for work. If I did not use them for my job, they all would have been covered. I eventually replaced what I wanted to replace and forgot about the stuff I never really used in the first place, but I had to replace tools first, so spent most of the insurance check on staying gainfully employed.
The crisis for me was that this happened on a Wednesday and I was scheduled to leave on a week long fishing trip on that Friday night. Can’t very well go fishing without any tackle.
The insurance company asked me if I had receipts for all of my stuff. I never even considered keeping them. I bought a Rapala floating minnow lure in Bemidji, MN, a few bags of soft plastic baits in Morris, IL, some flies in Blakeslee, PA and a reel in Thayer, MO. My tackle bag came from Bass Pro Shops in Springfield, MO via mail order and many of the storage boxes from Walmart in Kankakee.
BTW, I do now keep every receipt for every tool and tackle item that I purchase.
But I needed some gear and I needed it now!
I bought a few things at Walmart. Not the kind of stuff I’d usually buy, but enough to get me by for the week. Since it was fall, I didn’t need any of my normal spring pattern stuff and since I wasn’t taking the fly rods, could let that go till later as well.
Then I began calling friends…
I borrowed a couple of reels from one guy and picked them up after work. When I got them home, I found them to be a mess. They had last been used in June while he was in Canada and this was October. They had gotten wet on his trip and now were almost unusable.
I took them apart carefully, cleaned each and every piece, replaced some damaged parts that I happened to have on hand and lubricated everything with high quality materials. I respooled each with brand new fishing line and continued preparation for my trip.
When I returned the reels after my trip had ended, the guy actually complained that I had used Berkley line instead of his usual Stren. I thanked him for the loan, and took him a spool of Stren on the following Monday at work.
Each winter I spend hours working on preparing my gear for the coming fishing season. I clean the rods, replacing damaged eyes and marginal thread-wraps that hold the components together. I dismantle, clean, lube and respool every reel. I take everything out of its bag, box or hiding place, clean it, fix it or replace it. Rust inhibitor is used on anything that might corrode. I rebuild lures, replacing hooks and split rings. I sometimes even repaint lures if they need it.
I next take inventory, check to see what I used the most of the previous season and make a list so I don’t get surprised by missing something and not having what I need when I hit the water in the spring.
But this winter, things were different. Because of my health issues, I couldn’t work on all that stuff. I made a minimal effort to get things in order and the reels cleaned and repaired, but left much of the work I normally do undone.
The first time I got to go fishing this year, I paid for not having maintained my tackle during the winter months. I was missing things I would have liked to have had. I missed the hookset more than once on fish I should have landed, but lost because of old rusty hooks. One of my reels gave me fits to the point that I nearly threw it in the lake.
I broke off on three fish in the first day because I had a small nick in the eye on my favorite spinnerbait rod. I also lost three spinnerbaits in the process. I can never replace the missed fish and can do nothing about my choices now, but I have since spent more time fixing and less time fishing than might have been had I done my maintenance during the off-season.
While out fishing I often see people that have equipment that is in worse shape than things I have replaced because they were worn out. I see people lose fish after fish because the line hasn’t been replaced since the reel was new ten years ago. I see people fumbling in tackle boxes, filled with a jumble of rusted hooks and lures. I see people with broken rods, trying to tape them back together with duct tape while out fishing. Of course if they do hook a large fish, the duct tape is the first thing to fail and they end up with a fist full of tangled line on a still broken fishing rod.
And these are not your usual bank anglers with $15.00 Kmart specials. I’m referring to people with $200.00 rods, $250.00 reels and sate of the art equipment that nearly any serious fisherman would trade his soul to own. If they just took care of what they already have, they wouldn’t have to try to replace things and fix what’s broken in a make do fashion when they should be enjoying their time fishing.
Our relationships too require maintenance and each one of us is responsible for our own things. We tend to let things go until they can no longer serve their intended purpose and then try to make do with less than we want.
Both marriage partners are responsible for the condition of the relationship. If something needs attention, it is up to us to see that it gets fixed. When we see a problem, it should be our goal to solve it in a timely and adequate manner. We should take care of each other and not let the marriage deteriorate to the point where it can no longer make us happy.
The tools we can use to prevent our marriage from becoming worthless are found in Dr Harley’s Basic Concepts and include Extraordinary Care, Radical Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement. We need to also avoid damage to the relationship by stopping Love Busters while making sure nothing is missing by meeting each other’s primary Emotional Needs.
Extraordinary Care keeps us focused on the things that really matter. Radical Honesty requires us to share our thoughts and feelings with our spouse and the Policy of Joint Agreement ensures that neither one can selfishly take from the relationship at the other’s expense.
If we take care of what we have, we can then enjoy it by a quiet stream or a beautiful beach as the sun sets and the day nears it’s end.
And if someone steals what we have, we quickly discover that there are some things that simply cannot be replaced.
Tight Lines!
Mark
Edited to add: Dedicated to my Dad, who not only taught me to fish, but also what a committed marriage was all about.
I miss him!
Maintaining What We Have
A few years ago my pickup truck was broken into. It was parked in the lot at work, less than 25 feet from the front door. The street out front is a US highway, but is within the city, so is only about 50 feet from where I was parked.
In broad daylight, between 8:00 and 10:00 in the morning, someone popped the door of my truck cap and removed most of what was in the truck. This included over $3000 worth of tools and nearly as much in fishing tackle. Interestingly, they left the fishing rods which were packed into rod tubes to protect them.
The insurance covered the tackle, but not the tools since they were personal tools but used primarily for work. If I did not use them for my job, they all would have been covered. I eventually replaced what I wanted to replace and forgot about the stuff I never really used in the first place, but I had to replace tools first, so spent most of the insurance check on staying gainfully employed.
The crisis for me was that this happened on a Wednesday and I was scheduled to leave on a week long fishing trip on that Friday night. Can’t very well go fishing without any tackle.
The insurance company asked me if I had receipts for all of my stuff. I never even considered keeping them. I bought a Rapala floating minnow lure in Bemidji, MN, a few bags of soft plastic baits in Morris, IL, some flies in Blakeslee, PA and a reel in Thayer, MO. My tackle bag came from Bass Pro Shops in Springfield, MO via mail order and many of the storage boxes from Walmart in Kankakee.
BTW, I do now keep every receipt for every tool and tackle item that I purchase.
But I needed some gear and I needed it now!
I bought a few things at Walmart. Not the kind of stuff I’d usually buy, but enough to get me by for the week. Since it was fall, I didn’t need any of my normal spring pattern stuff and since I wasn’t taking the fly rods, could let that go till later as well.
Then I began calling friends…
I borrowed a couple of reels from one guy and picked them up after work. When I got them home, I found them to be a mess. They had last been used in June while he was in Canada and this was October. They had gotten wet on his trip and now were almost unusable.
I took them apart carefully, cleaned each and every piece, replaced some damaged parts that I happened to have on hand and lubricated everything with high quality materials. I respooled each with brand new fishing line and continued preparation for my trip.
When I returned the reels after my trip had ended, the guy actually complained that I had used Berkley line instead of his usual Stren. I thanked him for the loan, and took him a spool of Stren on the following Monday at work.
Each winter I spend hours working on preparing my gear for the coming fishing season. I clean the rods, replacing damaged eyes and marginal thread-wraps that hold the components together. I dismantle, clean, lube and respool every reel. I take everything out of its bag, box or hiding place, clean it, fix it or replace it. Rust inhibitor is used on anything that might corrode. I rebuild lures, replacing hooks and split rings. I sometimes even repaint lures if they need it.
I next take inventory, check to see what I used the most of the previous season and make a list so I don’t get surprised by missing something and not having what I need when I hit the water in the spring.
But this winter, things were different. Because of my health issues, I couldn’t work on all that stuff. I made a minimal effort to get things in order and the reels cleaned and repaired, but left much of the work I normally do undone.
The first time I got to go fishing this year, I paid for not having maintained my tackle during the winter months. I was missing things I would have liked to have had. I missed the hookset more than once on fish I should have landed, but lost because of old rusty hooks. One of my reels gave me fits to the point that I nearly threw it in the lake.
I broke off on three fish in the first day because I had a small nick in the eye on my favorite spinnerbait rod. I also lost three spinnerbaits in the process. I can never replace the missed fish and can do nothing about my choices now, but I have since spent more time fixing and less time fishing than might have been had I done my maintenance during the off-season.
While out fishing I often see people that have equipment that is in worse shape than things I have replaced because they were worn out. I see people lose fish after fish because the line hasn’t been replaced since the reel was new ten years ago. I see people fumbling in tackle boxes, filled with a jumble of rusted hooks and lures. I see people with broken rods, trying to tape them back together with duct tape while out fishing. Of course if they do hook a large fish, the duct tape is the first thing to fail and they end up with a fist full of tangled line on a still broken fishing rod.
And these are not your usual bank anglers with $15.00 Kmart specials. I’m referring to people with $200.00 rods, $250.00 reels and sate of the art equipment that nearly any serious fisherman would trade his soul to own. If they just took care of what they already have, they wouldn’t have to try to replace things and fix what’s broken in a make do fashion when they should be enjoying their time fishing.
Our relationships too require maintenance and each one of us is responsible for our own things. We tend to let things go until they can no longer serve their intended purpose and then try to make do with less than we want.
Both marriage partners are responsible for the condition of the relationship. If something needs attention, it is up to us to see that it gets fixed. When we see a problem, it should be our goal to solve it in a timely and adequate manner. We should take care of each other and not let the marriage deteriorate to the point where it can no longer make us happy.
The tools we can use to prevent our marriage from becoming worthless are found in Dr Harley’s Basic Concepts and include Extraordinary Care, Radical Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement. We need to also avoid damage to the relationship by stopping Love Busters while making sure nothing is missing by meeting each other’s primary Emotional Needs.
Extraordinary Care keeps us focused on the things that really matter. Radical Honesty requires us to share our thoughts and feelings with our spouse and the Policy of Joint Agreement ensures that neither one can selfishly take from the relationship at the other’s expense.
If we take care of what we have, we can then enjoy it by a quiet stream or a beautiful beach as the sun sets and the day nears it’s end.
And if someone steals what we have, we quickly discover that there are some things that simply cannot be replaced.
Tight Lines!
Mark
Edited to add: Dedicated to my Dad, who not only taught me to fish, but also what a committed marriage was all about.
I miss him!
Mark's Wonderful Rant - 07/14/07 03:51 PM
Musings From Mark1952.
AKA: Mark's Rant
When a BS first comes here, they usually begin by explaining their situation and telling how they found out about their WS’s A.
Then they usually ask something like this:
“What should I do?”
Being Marriage Builders, first responses are normally geared toward helping them recover their marriage and rebuild trust. That is after all, what MB principals are geared toward.
The problem is, that isn’t usually what the BS is seeking. What they are really looking for is a magic bullet, something that will bring the A to a screaming halt, blow away all of the fog, cause their WS to fall at their feet and beg for forgiveness.
Subsequent posts usually refer to how to MAKE the WS stop seeing OP or MAKE OP leave the WS alone or MAKE everything OK.
TO ALL BETRAYED SPOUSES:
You can’t MAKE anything happen.
There is NO magic bullet.
Recovery will NOT be instant gratification.
The fog does NOT usually go away until NC has been established and has gone on for quite a while, sometimes it may take as long as the A itself lasted.
ALL YOU CAN DO IS:
Make changes to yourself that show the WS what you can be and what is possible.
Make the home, with the BS, a safe place for the WS to be and a better place than the A.
Request, not demand that the A end.
Exhibit care, compassion and concern for WS’s well being.
Protect the rest of the family from WS’s actions as much as within your power.
Protect your and family finances as much as is legally possible.
Expose the A to anyone within the circle of influence of WS and OP, including OP’s BS.
YOU SHOULD NOT: (as much as is within your power)
Finance the A in any way. (This includes rent at another place, car payments or paying for babysitting so the WS can meet with OP)
Allow the children to have any contact with OP.
Discuss the state of the relationship and expect a commitment from the WS.
Attend MC as long as there is contact between WS and OP. (WS often considers this as a “good faith” offer that absolves them of responsibility for the break-up of the M since they can say “I tried MC and it still didn’t work)
Trust the WS to tell the truth about anything.
Attempt to use the threat of exposure as leverage. Exposure is a good thing but it should not be used as a threat and must happen without warning to be of any real value.
Leave the marital home or ask the WS to leave before the beginning of Plan B.
Threaten divorce or file for divorce unless you wish to end the M. (except in the case of having to file as a means of protecting marital assets from an actively WS.)
Make threats, attempt to coerce or belittle the WS.
Attempt to implement any MB practice or principal other than unilaterally. (You can’t make him/her do what is right while they are wayward.)
Simply sit around, worry about the A and wallow in pity for yourself. (Do something with the kids and ask WS to join you or go out with friends)
Beg, plead or cry to the WS.
IF THE AFFAIR ENDS AND WS BEGINS TO RETURN TO THE MARRIAGE:
Avoid spending all of your time together trying to force recovery or fixing relationship issues.
Do NOT bring up the A repeatedly in an attempt at revenge for anything the WS does that is not related to the A or even the A itself.
Do NOT belittle the WS to anyone for any reason.
Do NOT exhibit trust of the WS except where trustworthiness has been shown.
Do NOT reward the WS merely for ending the A.
Do NOT agree to simply “move forward and forget the past.” (The issue must be addressed, though not to the exclusion of daily life)
DO spend more time together doing fun things than working on the relationship.
DO show compassion and care for the S and support them through withdrawal from OP.
DO continue to avoid all Love Busters, especially DJs and AOs.
DO continue to monitor WS’s activities to ensure NC is ongoing and the A has not just gone underground. (Talking about snooping here)
DO continue to implement MB principals unilaterally until such time as the WS begins to participate actively in recovery.
DO seek professional help in order to approach the issues surrounding the A and its aftermath in an environment that is safe for both you and WS. Even simply having a witness to discussions can help to prevent heated arguments from ensuing.
--------------------
[color:"red"]A successful marriage isn't finding the right person-it's being the right person.
Sometimes we must let go of the GOOD to reach out and take hold of the BEST.
AKA: Mark's Rant
When a BS first comes here, they usually begin by explaining their situation and telling how they found out about their WS’s A.
Then they usually ask something like this:
“What should I do?”
Being Marriage Builders, first responses are normally geared toward helping them recover their marriage and rebuild trust. That is after all, what MB principals are geared toward.
The problem is, that isn’t usually what the BS is seeking. What they are really looking for is a magic bullet, something that will bring the A to a screaming halt, blow away all of the fog, cause their WS to fall at their feet and beg for forgiveness.
Subsequent posts usually refer to how to MAKE the WS stop seeing OP or MAKE OP leave the WS alone or MAKE everything OK.
TO ALL BETRAYED SPOUSES:
You can’t MAKE anything happen.
There is NO magic bullet.
Recovery will NOT be instant gratification.
The fog does NOT usually go away until NC has been established and has gone on for quite a while, sometimes it may take as long as the A itself lasted.
ALL YOU CAN DO IS:
Make changes to yourself that show the WS what you can be and what is possible.
Make the home, with the BS, a safe place for the WS to be and a better place than the A.
Request, not demand that the A end.
Exhibit care, compassion and concern for WS’s well being.
Protect the rest of the family from WS’s actions as much as within your power.
Protect your and family finances as much as is legally possible.
Expose the A to anyone within the circle of influence of WS and OP, including OP’s BS.
YOU SHOULD NOT: (as much as is within your power)
Finance the A in any way. (This includes rent at another place, car payments or paying for babysitting so the WS can meet with OP)
Allow the children to have any contact with OP.
Discuss the state of the relationship and expect a commitment from the WS.
Attend MC as long as there is contact between WS and OP. (WS often considers this as a “good faith” offer that absolves them of responsibility for the break-up of the M since they can say “I tried MC and it still didn’t work)
Trust the WS to tell the truth about anything.
Attempt to use the threat of exposure as leverage. Exposure is a good thing but it should not be used as a threat and must happen without warning to be of any real value.
Leave the marital home or ask the WS to leave before the beginning of Plan B.
Threaten divorce or file for divorce unless you wish to end the M. (except in the case of having to file as a means of protecting marital assets from an actively WS.)
Make threats, attempt to coerce or belittle the WS.
Attempt to implement any MB practice or principal other than unilaterally. (You can’t make him/her do what is right while they are wayward.)
Simply sit around, worry about the A and wallow in pity for yourself. (Do something with the kids and ask WS to join you or go out with friends)
Beg, plead or cry to the WS.
IF THE AFFAIR ENDS AND WS BEGINS TO RETURN TO THE MARRIAGE:
Avoid spending all of your time together trying to force recovery or fixing relationship issues.
Do NOT bring up the A repeatedly in an attempt at revenge for anything the WS does that is not related to the A or even the A itself.
Do NOT belittle the WS to anyone for any reason.
Do NOT exhibit trust of the WS except where trustworthiness has been shown.
Do NOT reward the WS merely for ending the A.
Do NOT agree to simply “move forward and forget the past.” (The issue must be addressed, though not to the exclusion of daily life)
DO spend more time together doing fun things than working on the relationship.
DO show compassion and care for the S and support them through withdrawal from OP.
DO continue to avoid all Love Busters, especially DJs and AOs.
DO continue to monitor WS’s activities to ensure NC is ongoing and the A has not just gone underground. (Talking about snooping here)
DO continue to implement MB principals unilaterally until such time as the WS begins to participate actively in recovery.
DO seek professional help in order to approach the issues surrounding the A and its aftermath in an environment that is safe for both you and WS. Even simply having a witness to discussions can help to prevent heated arguments from ensuing.
--------------------
[color:"red"]A successful marriage isn't finding the right person-it's being the right person.
Sometimes we must let go of the GOOD to reach out and take hold of the BEST.
Re: loco wisdom per Mr Pep - 07/20/07 07:20 PM
"To Whomever,
"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.
"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.
"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.
"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.
"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."
(end of Joseph's Letter)
"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.
"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.
"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.
"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.
"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."
(end of Joseph's Letter)
Re: loco wisdom per Mr Pep - 07/22/07 02:24 AM
SCHOOLBUS' LIST SEEMS APPROPRO FOR THIS 3300th view:
schoolbus
Member
Reged: Jan 30 2006
Posts: 595
Re: [color:"blue"] If you've been MARRIED for 30 Plus Years, what's your MAGIC? [/color]
#3259619 - Thu Jun 14 2007 05:41 PM
Short answer: I resisted the urge to kill him when he sorely needed it.......JK!!!!!!!
Real answer:
1-We worked as a team toward common goals most of the time. We share a vision of where we want to be in the future, a common idea of what and where we want to go together, and we work together to get there. (We POJA'd when POJA wasn't cool.)
2-We have always accepted who the other person was and never tried to change one another.
3-We do not, ever, make disparaging remarks about one another to other people. We also do not call one another bad names, even during arguments.
4-We tell each other that we love each other, frequently, and do things so that the other person knows of our love.
5-We have mutual respect for each other's minds and bodies, as well as emotions and needs.
6-We take care of each other when one of us is sick. This includes bringing medicine, helping with dr. visits, and all the rest - including cleaning up messes if needed! You can never know how much you can feel loved until you are really sick, and someone takes good care of you when you really need to be taken care of.
7-We admit it when we are wrong. And apologize when we are stupid. Which, seems to occur frequently.
8-We make sure we laugh together.
9-We are gentle when we need to be, rough when it's called for, and silly the rest of the time. Most of the time, it's not hard to be silly, given the vast amount of stupid things we seem to get ourselves involved in doing - or that just OCCUR around here. For example, right now, the dog is snoring, so any number of puns could just explode momentarily from that!
10-We try always to come from a place of love. This allows us to remember to allow for forgiveness, gentleness, tranquility, smiles, tenderness, intimacy, and friendship.
There's probably more.
But the formula basically has worked for 32 years.
Despite his affair, I love him. It has been difficult to work back to a place to believing and understanding that even during his affair he never stopped loving me. He lost his way, caught up in his own fears of aging, a sense of distance from me, and loss of closeness to me that our own errors in maintaining vigilance over our love resulted in. We both can see what havoc is wrought when our guard is let down, and we fail to invest our time and attention in our relationship with one another.
Never again will that mistake be made. We are now much more aware of the "magic", which is really
hard work
attention to one another
vigilance
love
dedication
focus
So, no magic. Remember - there ain't no fantasy, a marriage is what YOU make it.
SB
*****
schoolbus
Member
Reged: Jan 30 2006
Posts: 595
Re: [color:"blue"] If you've been MARRIED for 30 Plus Years, what's your MAGIC? [/color]
#3259619 - Thu Jun 14 2007 05:41 PM
Short answer: I resisted the urge to kill him when he sorely needed it.......JK!!!!!!!
Real answer:
1-We worked as a team toward common goals most of the time. We share a vision of where we want to be in the future, a common idea of what and where we want to go together, and we work together to get there. (We POJA'd when POJA wasn't cool.)
2-We have always accepted who the other person was and never tried to change one another.
3-We do not, ever, make disparaging remarks about one another to other people. We also do not call one another bad names, even during arguments.
4-We tell each other that we love each other, frequently, and do things so that the other person knows of our love.
5-We have mutual respect for each other's minds and bodies, as well as emotions and needs.
6-We take care of each other when one of us is sick. This includes bringing medicine, helping with dr. visits, and all the rest - including cleaning up messes if needed! You can never know how much you can feel loved until you are really sick, and someone takes good care of you when you really need to be taken care of.
7-We admit it when we are wrong. And apologize when we are stupid. Which, seems to occur frequently.
8-We make sure we laugh together.
9-We are gentle when we need to be, rough when it's called for, and silly the rest of the time. Most of the time, it's not hard to be silly, given the vast amount of stupid things we seem to get ourselves involved in doing - or that just OCCUR around here. For example, right now, the dog is snoring, so any number of puns could just explode momentarily from that!
10-We try always to come from a place of love. This allows us to remember to allow for forgiveness, gentleness, tranquility, smiles, tenderness, intimacy, and friendship.
There's probably more.
But the formula basically has worked for 32 years.
Despite his affair, I love him. It has been difficult to work back to a place to believing and understanding that even during his affair he never stopped loving me. He lost his way, caught up in his own fears of aging, a sense of distance from me, and loss of closeness to me that our own errors in maintaining vigilance over our love resulted in. We both can see what havoc is wrought when our guard is let down, and we fail to invest our time and attention in our relationship with one another.
Never again will that mistake be made. We are now much more aware of the "magic", which is really
hard work
attention to one another
vigilance
love
dedication
focus
So, no magic. Remember - there ain't no fantasy, a marriage is what YOU make it.
SB
*****
Re: loco wisdom per Mr Pep - 07/22/07 05:36 PM
Pepperband
Member
Reged: 10/20/00
Posts: 19903
Loc: Shrek's Swamp
Re: [color:"blue"] I'm signing off (Thread by rlt)[/color] [Re: Ace_in_bucket]
#3264458 - 06/23/07 09:49 AM
BRILLIANT
-------- [color:"red"]
I smile <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> because I am your friend!
I laugh <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> because there is nothing you can do about it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> [/color]
Member
Reged: 10/20/00
Posts: 19903
Loc: Shrek's Swamp
Re: [color:"blue"] I'm signing off (Thread by rlt)[/color] [Re: Ace_in_bucket]
#3264458 - 06/23/07 09:49 AM
Quote
When/if David or other men-friends contact you, try to picture in your mind your marriage as a helium filled balloon. Every contact might have the potential to be a tiny pin-hole. If they contact on a day you are vulnerable and 'trigger' back accidently, you could allow the pin to pierce a teeeeny hole in the balloon's fiber.
Will it deflate immediately? Not necessarily....but if the contact blossoms because of your vulnerability and the pin hole grows, it could over time.
Our MC said that continuously exposing one's self to factors of risk (knowing that such affects could be devastating) is foolish.
By picturing these innocent contacts as potential risks to your progress in your recovery, you might be able to view them in such a way that helps change your mindset regarding how innocent such contact actually might be.
Will it deflate immediately? Not necessarily....but if the contact blossoms because of your vulnerability and the pin hole grows, it could over time.
Our MC said that continuously exposing one's self to factors of risk (knowing that such affects could be devastating) is foolish.
By picturing these innocent contacts as potential risks to your progress in your recovery, you might be able to view them in such a way that helps change your mindset regarding how innocent such contact actually might be.
BRILLIANT
-------- [color:"red"]
I smile <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> because I am your friend!
I laugh <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> because there is nothing you can do about it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> [/color]
Re: Notable Posts - 09/07/07 09:22 PM
Quote
Quote
Here's one of my old favorites:
2ofakind's:WS who needs to find themselves
2ofakind's:WS who needs to find themselves
BWHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
OMGosh, I am ROTFLMAO at this post, Trix....freaking hilarious!!!
I cannot thank you enough for posting this link. I sooooooooo needed a thoroughly deep belly laugh and this did it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Re: Notable Posts - 10/07/07 04:01 AM
We are all better for having Pep in our midst.
Re: Notable Posts - 10/12/07 07:02 PM
Well look at me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
I'm a push pin !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Came in MB to look up an old post .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
I'm a push pin !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Came in MB to look up an old post .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Re: Notable Posts - 10/12/07 07:22 PM
Pep!
Don't leave!
Don't leave!
Re: Notable Posts - 10/12/07 08:22 PM
Miss ya Pep!
Mark
Mark
Re: Notable Posts - 10/15/07 09:53 PM
Good Lord, it was PEP!
-ol' 2long
-ol' 2long
Re: Notable Posts - 10/17/07 03:05 AM
Quote
Well look at me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
I'm a push pin !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
I'm a push pin !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
You IS not.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> you are a silly left coaster from the land o' fruits and nuts... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
emotional needs: rights AND RESPONSIBILITIES - 11/18/07 09:30 PM
emotional needs: rights AND RESPONSIBILITIES
[color:"red"]by Meremortal[/color]
OK, I totally agree about the meeting your spouse's most important emotional needs as one of the ways to reduce the likelihood of your spouse cheating. I don't object to the MB principles regarding emotional needs.
However, I want to add some thoughts about emotional needs for further discussion.
IMHO having your most important emotional needs met by your spouse is sort of a right every married person should expect their spouse to do their best to meet.
But as with any right along with that comes certain responsibilities too. IMHO each married person has a responsibility:
1) to determine what their own most important emotional needs are
2) to honestly evaluate whether or not their own needs are valid, healthy, achievable, fair
3) to clearly, consistently, cooperatively communicate to their spouse what their most important emotional needs are
4) to allow their spouse to meet their most important emotional needs
5) to prohibit anyone else besides their spouse from meeting their most important emotional needs
6) to stay in communication with their spouse regarding how well they feel the spouse is meeting their most important emotional needs
7) to fully cooperate with their spouse in steps 1-6 regarding their spouse's most important emotional needs
I have yet to hear of a single WS who has fulfilled their responsibilities regarding their own most important emotional needs. IMHO the 'failure' of the BS to meet the most important emotional needs of the WS is often directly related to the WS' failure to take responsibility themselves.
link to thread
[color:"red"]by Meremortal[/color]
OK, I totally agree about the meeting your spouse's most important emotional needs as one of the ways to reduce the likelihood of your spouse cheating. I don't object to the MB principles regarding emotional needs.
However, I want to add some thoughts about emotional needs for further discussion.
IMHO having your most important emotional needs met by your spouse is sort of a right every married person should expect their spouse to do their best to meet.
But as with any right along with that comes certain responsibilities too. IMHO each married person has a responsibility:
1) to determine what their own most important emotional needs are
2) to honestly evaluate whether or not their own needs are valid, healthy, achievable, fair
3) to clearly, consistently, cooperatively communicate to their spouse what their most important emotional needs are
4) to allow their spouse to meet their most important emotional needs
5) to prohibit anyone else besides their spouse from meeting their most important emotional needs
6) to stay in communication with their spouse regarding how well they feel the spouse is meeting their most important emotional needs
7) to fully cooperate with their spouse in steps 1-6 regarding their spouse's most important emotional needs
I have yet to hear of a single WS who has fulfilled their responsibilities regarding their own most important emotional needs. IMHO the 'failure' of the BS to meet the most important emotional needs of the WS is often directly related to the WS' failure to take responsibility themselves.
link to thread
Re: emotional needs: rights AND RESPONSIBILITIES - 11/19/07 12:38 AM
Heyyyyyyyyyyy Pep did a drive-through.....
Recovering Renters ~ by Frozen - 11/19/07 08:19 PM
Recovering Renters Support
The best way to lead anyone anywhere is by example.
So how do YOUR Buyer skills rate?
* Is there currently an issue in your marriage that you are dissatisfied with but haven't wanted to bring it to your spouse's attention?
A Buyer is emotionally honest with themselves and with their spouse
* Is there a situation in your marriage you are dissatisfied with but are just tolerating?
A Buyer understands that sacrifice leads to resentment
* When your spouse tells you that they are dissatisfied with something you are doing, do you get defensive?
A Buyer understands that criticism indicates a need for change
* Do you ever utter the phrases, "If you loved me, you would..." or "What can I do to change his/her mind"?
A Buyer seeks solutions to conflict that are a win for both spouses.
* Do you ever think that maybe you and your spouse are just incompatible?
A Buyer understands that the way to build compatibility is through successful negotiaton.
* Do you ever go along with something you aren't really enthusiastic about just to end a conflict?
A Buyer believes that marriage is long-term and knows that short-term solutions will not provide long-term marital enjoyment.
* When you negotiate with your spouse, do you tell your spouse that you don't enthusiastically agree and your negotiation ends there?
A Buyer understands that requiring their spouse to sacrifice is dangerous and is to be avoided.
* When your spouse approaches you for negotiation, are you disrespectful? Do you roll your eyes, make disrespectful comments such as "You're never satisfied with anything"? Do you attempt to invalidate their request?
A Buyer knows that in order to successfully negotiate, the negotiation process must be safe and pleasant for both spouses.
* Do you ask your spouse to do things you know they don't truly want to do for you in order to prove their love?
A Buyer knows that love is not measured by sacrifice.
* Do you feel as though you have given and given in your marriage and if only your selfish spouse would give a little, you might have a happy marriage?
A Buyer knows how to balance both their Giver and Taker. A Buyer takes responsibility for their own satisfaction and doesn't blame their spouse for their dissatisfaction.
While it is controlling to attempt to force someone to change, you can change yourself. And if the input that someone receives is different, often the output will be as well. If you change the way you react to your spouse, likely they will change the way they react to you.
link to discussion
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1
The best way to lead anyone anywhere is by example.
So how do YOUR Buyer skills rate?
* Is there currently an issue in your marriage that you are dissatisfied with but haven't wanted to bring it to your spouse's attention?
A Buyer is emotionally honest with themselves and with their spouse
* Is there a situation in your marriage you are dissatisfied with but are just tolerating?
A Buyer understands that sacrifice leads to resentment
* When your spouse tells you that they are dissatisfied with something you are doing, do you get defensive?
A Buyer understands that criticism indicates a need for change
* Do you ever utter the phrases, "If you loved me, you would..." or "What can I do to change his/her mind"?
A Buyer seeks solutions to conflict that are a win for both spouses.
* Do you ever think that maybe you and your spouse are just incompatible?
A Buyer understands that the way to build compatibility is through successful negotiaton.
* Do you ever go along with something you aren't really enthusiastic about just to end a conflict?
A Buyer believes that marriage is long-term and knows that short-term solutions will not provide long-term marital enjoyment.
* When you negotiate with your spouse, do you tell your spouse that you don't enthusiastically agree and your negotiation ends there?
A Buyer understands that requiring their spouse to sacrifice is dangerous and is to be avoided.
* When your spouse approaches you for negotiation, are you disrespectful? Do you roll your eyes, make disrespectful comments such as "You're never satisfied with anything"? Do you attempt to invalidate their request?
A Buyer knows that in order to successfully negotiate, the negotiation process must be safe and pleasant for both spouses.
* Do you ask your spouse to do things you know they don't truly want to do for you in order to prove their love?
A Buyer knows that love is not measured by sacrifice.
* Do you feel as though you have given and given in your marriage and if only your selfish spouse would give a little, you might have a happy marriage?
A Buyer knows how to balance both their Giver and Taker. A Buyer takes responsibility for their own satisfaction and doesn't blame their spouse for their dissatisfaction.
While it is controlling to attempt to force someone to change, you can change yourself. And if the input that someone receives is different, often the output will be as well. If you change the way you react to your spouse, likely they will change the way they react to you.
link to discussion
http:/
Re: emotional needs: rights AND RESPONSIBILITIES - 12/09/07 12:23 PM
Hi Pepperband, u seem like a veteran here with good ideas. I would really appreciate if u could help me, i posted in General Questions. my thread is called Message for Justkeeptrying and Tyk. im getting advise from a lady called Back, would u have time to help me too PLEASE!!
Re: emotional needs: rights AND RESPONSIBILITIES - 12/10/07 10:01 AM
Pep doesn't advise here right now aranchaa. In part, she became tired of people seeking her time and investment under false pretences so left a legacy and moved away from the board.
Pep taught me a lot, MB and otherwise, so I'll look in your main thread to see if I can assist you at all.
Pep taught me a lot, MB and otherwise, so I'll look in your main thread to see if I can assist you at all.
Re: Notable Posts - 02/15/08 04:10 PM
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> bump - coz I am pissed off at some WW
Re: Notable Posts - 02/15/08 04:30 PM
Gee, let me guess which WW that might be...hmm.
Re: Notable Posts - 02/15/08 04:51 PM
I don't think I have ever talked to you Pep. I can tell how much you are loved and admired. And I imagine it takes a lot to get your mad.
[/quote] I have yet to hear of a single WS who has fulfilled their responsibilities regarding their own most important emotional needs. IMHO the 'failure' of the BS to meet the most important emotional needs of the WS is often directly related to the WS' failure to take responsibility themselves. [/quote] This is so absolutely true in my sitch and that's what is so frustrating.
He would tell me one thing, I would meet it then he would change his mind. He is so mixed up and has been for years.
[/quote] I have yet to hear of a single WS who has fulfilled their responsibilities regarding their own most important emotional needs. IMHO the 'failure' of the BS to meet the most important emotional needs of the WS is often directly related to the WS' failure to take responsibility themselves. [/quote] This is so absolutely true in my sitch and that's what is so frustrating.
He would tell me one thing, I would meet it then he would change his mind. He is so mixed up and has been for years.
Lexxy wisdom - a gift to another WW - 02/29/08 05:09 PM
To Mrs. Eye:
Fact: your kids will hate OM. They will be disrespectful. They will take shots at him. He will expect you to stand up for him. You will ALWAYS be in the middle of this battle. You know your kids are right for resenting him, and yet you will expect them to treat him well. You will cause untold harm to your children with this expectation. Ultimately they will blame YOU for this.
Fact: you can expect your children to never be what they could have been with an intact family. Expect falling grades. Expect acting out. Expect experimenting with drugs and alcohol. Did you know your children will be 75% more likely to develop a substance abuse problem?
Fact: expect your children to have a negative view of relationships. Expect to hear your daughter never plans on getting married. Expect to hear that your daughter also cheats on her partners. Expect to hear from your daughters boyfriend as he breaks up with her "like mother, like daughter"...
Fact: Expect your childrens financial picture to change dramatically. Everything that would have been possible for them may not be. Your financial future will change. OM and maybe you will be paying child support. Your standard of living will drop. And your childrens' standard will drop.
Fact: expect years of uncomfortable events. Your children will lose all of their traditions. Every event from now on will be split between Mom or Dad. No more celebrating their achievements surrounded by friends and family. They will either have Dad and his circle -- or Mom and her circle. If Mom keeps OM in her circle, the children will gravitate towards Dad -- because they already know they do not truly come first with Mom.
Fact: expect years of uncomfortable events with OM's family. You will never be embraced, you may be tolerated. You will never "feel" the same toward OM's son that you feel toward your own children. Expect OM's son to hate you. Expect him to act out. You will want OM to protect and defend you from son's mouthiness and disrespect. And yet, son is right to feel how he does toward you. You destroyed his Mom. You destroyed his family.
Fact: every time you set foot in a church you will hear a little voice telling you what a hypocrite you are. You don't belong there. You don't REALLY live your life by God's word. Whatever faith you have will disappear. And OM will lose his connection and comfort from his faith. His religion is another thing he will have to give up for you. And he will resent you for it.
Fact: Expect to wear that Scarlet letter forever. Everytime you go to your kids sporting events you will have to wonder of the other parents know about you. How many of them gossip behind your back about why your marriage ended?
Fact: If you go ahead and divorce Eye, he will be fine. It won't destroy him. He's learned what it takes to have a really great marriage. Expect that he will find someone new. Expect that he will do all the right things (in the right way) and that everyone will eventually be HAPPY for him. Everyone will embrace his new choice -- even your kids. So while the kids HATE OM -- they will LOVE their new stepmom. Eventually you will lose the kids entirely. They won't want to be with you.
Fact: every relationship cools off. When that happens with you and OM, you will always have to be vigilant...you will always wonder...if he's gotten involved with someone else.
Fact: you will see Eye being a different person. You will always wonder if your life would have been better if you had just TRIED. You will be jealous of anyone Eye gets involved with.
Fact: You will soon, if not already, be in despair over how *you* have ruined your life. Expect serious depression. Really, why would either of these men want you when you are such a mess? Watch out for suicidal thoughts and plans. Get counseling. Get anti-depressants.
Fact: The only way to prevent any of this is to get rid of OM. Even if you don't recover your marriage -- OM has to be out of your life in order to repair your relationship with your children. I doubt that you have the strength to do that -- so I simply warn you to prepare for all the above.
Mrs Eye; you KNOW you've done this all wrong. Even if you wanted to leave, this isn't the way to do it. It would be completely different if you had dealt with the marriage first, before becoming involved with OM. And I speak from experience that there is absolutely no way to change or fix this outside of getting rid of OM. None of your schemes or manipulations will fix this. If you don't want the scenarios I've described above, the ONLY way is to end the relationship with him. And Mrs. Eye, you KNOW deep inside that your relationship with him is not blessed. It will only bring you bad things (karma).
And when those bad things happen? The job losses, the money problems, the kids acting out? You will know you deserve every one of them.
From one who's been there -- get rid of OM and TRY.
Fact: your kids will hate OM. They will be disrespectful. They will take shots at him. He will expect you to stand up for him. You will ALWAYS be in the middle of this battle. You know your kids are right for resenting him, and yet you will expect them to treat him well. You will cause untold harm to your children with this expectation. Ultimately they will blame YOU for this.
Fact: you can expect your children to never be what they could have been with an intact family. Expect falling grades. Expect acting out. Expect experimenting with drugs and alcohol. Did you know your children will be 75% more likely to develop a substance abuse problem?
Fact: expect your children to have a negative view of relationships. Expect to hear your daughter never plans on getting married. Expect to hear that your daughter also cheats on her partners. Expect to hear from your daughters boyfriend as he breaks up with her "like mother, like daughter"...
Fact: Expect your childrens financial picture to change dramatically. Everything that would have been possible for them may not be. Your financial future will change. OM and maybe you will be paying child support. Your standard of living will drop. And your childrens' standard will drop.
Fact: expect years of uncomfortable events. Your children will lose all of their traditions. Every event from now on will be split between Mom or Dad. No more celebrating their achievements surrounded by friends and family. They will either have Dad and his circle -- or Mom and her circle. If Mom keeps OM in her circle, the children will gravitate towards Dad -- because they already know they do not truly come first with Mom.
Fact: expect years of uncomfortable events with OM's family. You will never be embraced, you may be tolerated. You will never "feel" the same toward OM's son that you feel toward your own children. Expect OM's son to hate you. Expect him to act out. You will want OM to protect and defend you from son's mouthiness and disrespect. And yet, son is right to feel how he does toward you. You destroyed his Mom. You destroyed his family.
Fact: every time you set foot in a church you will hear a little voice telling you what a hypocrite you are. You don't belong there. You don't REALLY live your life by God's word. Whatever faith you have will disappear. And OM will lose his connection and comfort from his faith. His religion is another thing he will have to give up for you. And he will resent you for it.
Fact: Expect to wear that Scarlet letter forever. Everytime you go to your kids sporting events you will have to wonder of the other parents know about you. How many of them gossip behind your back about why your marriage ended?
Fact: If you go ahead and divorce Eye, he will be fine. It won't destroy him. He's learned what it takes to have a really great marriage. Expect that he will find someone new. Expect that he will do all the right things (in the right way) and that everyone will eventually be HAPPY for him. Everyone will embrace his new choice -- even your kids. So while the kids HATE OM -- they will LOVE their new stepmom. Eventually you will lose the kids entirely. They won't want to be with you.
Fact: every relationship cools off. When that happens with you and OM, you will always have to be vigilant...you will always wonder...if he's gotten involved with someone else.
Fact: you will see Eye being a different person. You will always wonder if your life would have been better if you had just TRIED. You will be jealous of anyone Eye gets involved with.
Fact: You will soon, if not already, be in despair over how *you* have ruined your life. Expect serious depression. Really, why would either of these men want you when you are such a mess? Watch out for suicidal thoughts and plans. Get counseling. Get anti-depressants.
Fact: The only way to prevent any of this is to get rid of OM. Even if you don't recover your marriage -- OM has to be out of your life in order to repair your relationship with your children. I doubt that you have the strength to do that -- so I simply warn you to prepare for all the above.
Mrs Eye; you KNOW you've done this all wrong. Even if you wanted to leave, this isn't the way to do it. It would be completely different if you had dealt with the marriage first, before becoming involved with OM. And I speak from experience that there is absolutely no way to change or fix this outside of getting rid of OM. None of your schemes or manipulations will fix this. If you don't want the scenarios I've described above, the ONLY way is to end the relationship with him. And Mrs. Eye, you KNOW deep inside that your relationship with him is not blessed. It will only bring you bad things (karma).
And when those bad things happen? The job losses, the money problems, the kids acting out? You will know you deserve every one of them.
From one who's been there -- get rid of OM and TRY.
Mulan - defines "boundary" - 03/01/08 07:36 PM
A boundary is not defined as "something I don't like."
A boundary is defined as "something I will defend no matter what."
A very common question is, "How do I enforce a boundary? How do I make my spouse stop lying, how do I make my spouse stop dating OP, how do I make my spouse start taking care of our family instead of someone else's?"
The answer is: You don't.
Trying to "make" people do the things listed above is not enforcing a boundary. It's control, it's manipulation, it's laying down demands, etc. etc. etc.
And none of it works.
The answer to the question, "How Do I Enforce A Boundary?" is virtually always the same:
You remove yourself from the situation. You stop allowing the boundary trespasser to have any access to you at all.
This is what's meant by, "You can't control others. You can only control yourself."
You can't "make" your spouse stop lying to you - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.
You can't "make" your spouse stop dating OP - - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.
You can't "make" your spouse take care of your family instead of someone else's - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.
Get the idea now?
Boundaries are for *you*. They are to protect you from people who would do you harm. They are NOT about "making" others do anything. They are about protecting *YOU*.
Castle walls don't make the invaders stop their cruel and destructive attitudes - but they do protect you from their intrusion.
Boundaries are castle walls.
And as far as anger goes, you will find that good boundaries will make much of it go away. Good boundaries really do make RAGE dissipate, because anger + fear = rage. Good boundaries keep you safe, and when you are safe, fear goes away. You will certainly have some righteous anger left, sure, but the RAGE will fade away because there is no longer the fear hanging around to fuel it.
Make sense?
A boundary is defined as "something I will defend no matter what."
A very common question is, "How do I enforce a boundary? How do I make my spouse stop lying, how do I make my spouse stop dating OP, how do I make my spouse start taking care of our family instead of someone else's?"
The answer is: You don't.
Trying to "make" people do the things listed above is not enforcing a boundary. It's control, it's manipulation, it's laying down demands, etc. etc. etc.
And none of it works.
The answer to the question, "How Do I Enforce A Boundary?" is virtually always the same:
You remove yourself from the situation. You stop allowing the boundary trespasser to have any access to you at all.
This is what's meant by, "You can't control others. You can only control yourself."
You can't "make" your spouse stop lying to you - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.
You can't "make" your spouse stop dating OP - - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.
You can't "make" your spouse take care of your family instead of someone else's - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.
Get the idea now?
Boundaries are for *you*. They are to protect you from people who would do you harm. They are NOT about "making" others do anything. They are about protecting *YOU*.
Castle walls don't make the invaders stop their cruel and destructive attitudes - but they do protect you from their intrusion.
Boundaries are castle walls.
And as far as anger goes, you will find that good boundaries will make much of it go away. Good boundaries really do make RAGE dissipate, because anger + fear = rage. Good boundaries keep you safe, and when you are safe, fear goes away. You will certainly have some righteous anger left, sure, but the RAGE will fade away because there is no longer the fear hanging around to fuel it.
Make sense?
Takola bakes a cake but sues Betty Crocker - 05/01/08 03:32 PM
I think I'm going to sue Betty Crocker. It's all their fault.
I started making a cake today. I read half of the instructions, but it soon became apparent to me that they had written them for general use and not for my very special, unique circumstances. I quickly revised a few things to meet the needs of my situation.
I got some things out to do it. The recipe said that I needed 3 eggs. I only had one, and going to the store was very inconvenient. I decided just to use the one and a package of Egg Beaters.
I got out a bowl. It wasn't a mixing bowl like the instructions said. It was just a plain old soup bowl, but that should have been good enough. I mean, really, what do they want?
Since the cake takes so long to make and bake, and I didn't want to wait that long, I just kept dipping my spoon into the mix and eating it as I went along. I set the oven to 500 degrees and turned it on to preheat. I added 4 cups of olive oil and my eggs. The package said vegetable oil, but olive oil is so much better for you that I decided to substitute it.
I got out my electric mixer like the one pictured on the package and turned it on the highest level. (I mean, HELLO, I want this sooner than later!) Well, let me tell you, the stuff went flying EVERYWHERE! WTF were they thinking?! Since the mixer obviously wasn’t working, I just got out a spoon and stirred my mixture a few times.
I poured the mixture into the exact pan size that they said, and it didn’t even cover the BOTTOM OF THE PAN, so I transferred the batter to a smaller pan that was 3 inches deep. I like thicker cakes, anyway.
I put the pan in the oven, and go to watch some TV. Who wants to watch something bake? I have better things to do…
Well, 45 minutes later I go to check on my cake (cause it was NOT smelling good) and I notice black smoke everywhere! The batter had oozed all over the side of my pan and burning on the oven’s heating element! The rest of the cake was completely charred, there’s no way I can eat that. I doesn’t even look like a cake.
The box DID say to only bake it for 25 minutes, but really, should that be MY responsibility? Shouldn’t the cake just KNOW when it’s done and stop baking? Come on, it’s the 21st century.
So, here I am standing in the middle of a mess with a worthless burnt cake. My oven is almost ruined, I’ve got cake mixture on every surface in my kitchen, and I didn’t get to have my cake, let alone eat it too.
I don’t advise anyone here to buy Betty Crocker products. They are nothing but a fraudulent rip-off. Your kitchen could be ruined.
And I’m suing them. It’s all their fault.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*link* to original post
I started making a cake today. I read half of the instructions, but it soon became apparent to me that they had written them for general use and not for my very special, unique circumstances. I quickly revised a few things to meet the needs of my situation.
I got some things out to do it. The recipe said that I needed 3 eggs. I only had one, and going to the store was very inconvenient. I decided just to use the one and a package of Egg Beaters.
I got out a bowl. It wasn't a mixing bowl like the instructions said. It was just a plain old soup bowl, but that should have been good enough. I mean, really, what do they want?
Since the cake takes so long to make and bake, and I didn't want to wait that long, I just kept dipping my spoon into the mix and eating it as I went along. I set the oven to 500 degrees and turned it on to preheat. I added 4 cups of olive oil and my eggs. The package said vegetable oil, but olive oil is so much better for you that I decided to substitute it.
I got out my electric mixer like the one pictured on the package and turned it on the highest level. (I mean, HELLO, I want this sooner than later!) Well, let me tell you, the stuff went flying EVERYWHERE! WTF were they thinking?! Since the mixer obviously wasn’t working, I just got out a spoon and stirred my mixture a few times.
I poured the mixture into the exact pan size that they said, and it didn’t even cover the BOTTOM OF THE PAN, so I transferred the batter to a smaller pan that was 3 inches deep. I like thicker cakes, anyway.
I put the pan in the oven, and go to watch some TV. Who wants to watch something bake? I have better things to do…
Well, 45 minutes later I go to check on my cake (cause it was NOT smelling good) and I notice black smoke everywhere! The batter had oozed all over the side of my pan and burning on the oven’s heating element! The rest of the cake was completely charred, there’s no way I can eat that. I doesn’t even look like a cake.
The box DID say to only bake it for 25 minutes, but really, should that be MY responsibility? Shouldn’t the cake just KNOW when it’s done and stop baking? Come on, it’s the 21st century.
So, here I am standing in the middle of a mess with a worthless burnt cake. My oven is almost ruined, I’ve got cake mixture on every surface in my kitchen, and I didn’t get to have my cake, let alone eat it too.
I don’t advise anyone here to buy Betty Crocker products. They are nothing but a fraudulent rip-off. Your kitchen could be ruined.
And I’m suing them. It’s all their fault.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*link* to original post
Dan Neil - love & pledges & funny hats - 05/04/08 04:47 PM
by Dan Neil (La Times)
Love isn't destiny. It's epidemiology.
Life has a way of taking your most earnest pledges and folding them into funny hats for you to wear.
*read it here*
^^ read it - it's good - really - not kidding - read it ^^
Love isn't destiny. It's epidemiology.
Life has a way of taking your most earnest pledges and folding them into funny hats for you to wear.
*read it here*
^^ read it - it's good - really - not kidding - read it ^^
Re: Takola bakes a cake but sues Betty Crocker - 05/04/08 04:51 PM
LOL,
Will you share your settlement with us?
Will you share your settlement with us?
Re: Takola bakes a cake but sues Betty Crocker - 05/04/08 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by QueeniesNewLife
LOL,
Will you share your settlement with us?
Will you share your settlement with us?
I might, if I had the foggiest idea what you're talkin'bout !
Re: Takola bakes a cake but sues Betty Crocker - 05/04/08 07:04 PM
Suing Betty Crocker.
Re: Takola bakes a cake but sues Betty Crocker - 05/04/08 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by QueeniesNewLife
Suing Betty Crocker.
That settlement $$$ becongs to *Takola*
not Pep
Re: Takola bakes a cake but sues Betty Crocker - 05/05/08 05:38 AM
That's drag for sure then....
Re: Takola bakes a cake but sues Betty Crocker - 05/06/08 07:45 PM
Bumping this thread for all the newbies. It's FULL of valuable advice collected over time. It covers the fog, Trueheart's letter, etc.
P.S. Pep, I just read your Betty Crocker post. I loved the analogy. There's lots of burnt cakes being baked right now. If only they'd follow the directions right right in front of them!
P.S. Pep, I just read your Betty Crocker post. I loved the analogy. There's lots of burnt cakes being baked right now. If only they'd follow the directions right right in front of them!
Plan Confusion - by Learning2Fly - 05/09/08 07:02 PM
written by Learning2Fly
*LINK* to original thread
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My name is L2F, and I'm a Plan C'er
What is Plan C you ask? It's Plan Confusion, and it's NOT the MB way.
Plan C is what you do when you don't truly get the specifics of Plan A/B.
It's what you do when you try a mish mash of both without consistency, without understanding, without faith and patience.
It's what you do when you let your emotions guide your actions
It's what you do when you're afraid of WSs reaction.
It's what you do when you believe...even slightly...some of the threats, rants and accusations that you WILL hear from WS's mouth.
It's what you do when you're afraid of the consequences of YOUR actions.
It's what you do when you give all your power to your WS and don't recognize your own.
The danger of Plan C is that it can go on for a VERY long time. Life is short, your love bank must survive, and so must you.
I really don't recommend Plan C.
L2F
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*LINK* to original thread
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My name is L2F, and I'm a Plan C'er
What is Plan C you ask? It's Plan Confusion, and it's NOT the MB way.
Plan C is what you do when you don't truly get the specifics of Plan A/B.
It's what you do when you try a mish mash of both without consistency, without understanding, without faith and patience.
It's what you do when you let your emotions guide your actions
It's what you do when you're afraid of WSs reaction.
It's what you do when you believe...even slightly...some of the threats, rants and accusations that you WILL hear from WS's mouth.
It's what you do when you're afraid of the consequences of YOUR actions.
It's what you do when you give all your power to your WS and don't recognize your own.
The danger of Plan C is that it can go on for a VERY long time. Life is short, your love bank must survive, and so must you.
I really don't recommend Plan C.
L2F
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Loving Detatchment - by Bob Pure - 05/15/08 03:27 PM
The following description of LOVING DETACHMENT was scribed by Bob Pure.
Enjoy !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I was working out a situation with a friend the other day and it occurred to me FINALLY how to describe "loving detachment" in a practically applicable way.
In my own affair-battle, and in plan A , loving detachment was without doubt the technique that helped the most to get through the very bad times. It allowed me breathing space to be rational when faced with irrationality.
I have advised for panicking folks in the heat of this fight to "detach" but I always struggled to INSTRUCT them how to do it.
Well, a day late and a dollar short, but here goes - in case it helps anyone:
However vicious or entitled a persons actions may be towards us, and however dark a situation may appear, it is a stark realisation that it is OURSELVES who render events with the power to frighten or hurt ourselves.
Some folks who tried to adopt loving detachment tried to IGNORE evil perpetrated in their lives and respond with a false rictus smile to the person who is hurting them. That is not what loving detachment is for me and I chide myself for not being able to explain sooner.
Loving detachment was a way I found to strip away the scariness and portent I attributed to events and look only at the core elements of these events.
I'll start with a non infidelity example :
A banana skin skids to a halt at your feet, when you are rushing and feeling low, and you barely miss slipping on it. Things you might think while in an emotional state:
"I could have slipped on that ! GOD I might have broken my neck ! I Bet my spouse threw that there to kill me for my insurance ? What if there are more banana skins ? OH NO, I have to LIVE in a world of banana skins for ever boo hoo hoo !"
What loving detachment thinks :
"A banana skin. I need to step around that so I don't slip. Stay vigilant in case of further banana skins as I can only control my OWN placement of banana skins, not other people's."
See ?
It doesn't matter if a person tried to sabotage you with that banana skin,OR if it was dropped accidentally by a passing magic flying monkey, the core challenge, and correct response is identical once you strip away all the layers of portent you ascribe to an event.
When Squid would attend karate competitions that I suspected OM may be at, against my direct request a wellspring of panic and fear surged within me. " She'll be kissing him ! Maybe they're not even at a karate event! Perhaps they've left to elope !"
Then I shouted "Stop! Detach! " to myself.
Facts :
1. Squid went to referee a weekend competition against my request less than a month after d-day. The only thing I know for sure is she won't be home over Saturday night.
2. Even if she *IS* PA'ing with OM, it does not change our situation.I Expect her to be wayward at this time. I am not "more cuckolded" by this ,if so.
3. I know there IS a competition at the time / place she says and that she is sharing a room with a trustworthy mutual friend.
4. How can I affect this in future ? Well, exposing to OM GF may apply a compulsion to OM not to attend these events. I should expose.
5. The weekend without soaking up Squids poison gives me a respite ! I will take the kids to a childrens' farm !
Loving detachment is DELIBERATELY stripping away portent from events and facts to allow calm rationalisation as to whether you can affect a situation positively or not.
It is not ignoring, it is not soaking up, it is not tolerating. It is revealing and dealing with the FACTS as practically as possible.
Another real example :
Event : Squid is highly entitled and is bullying me in her affair pomp, in the second whole week after NC established. She is making no effort to be transparent nor to work on our marriage. Highly dismissive, vituperative. I am terrified, the kids are being hurt.
WHOA Bob !!! LOVING DETACHMENT MODE PLEASE :
What would I do if I were not afraid ?
- I'd tell Squid that I would rather live without her than WITH her this mean and disrespectful
What am I afraid of ?
- That this is the best Squid can ever give me and that she would leave if I enforced a boundary requiring more
SO this is a dignity issue. Best case is that I get my baby AND my dignity. Whats the best compromise ?
- That I keep my dignity and lose my baby.
So, loving detachment, what are the FACTS to consider ?
1. She could leave ANY time she wanted with or without my protecting my dignity
2. If she left as a result of having to respect minimum boundaries, I am only worse off if I value that toxic corruption of a marriage more than my own dignity.
3. If she leaves I will be healthy,have the support of my employer and my kids and we will be fine, after a time of sadness. It is highly unlikely that we will be broken by this.
4. If she stays and respects my boundaries we may all just "win the lottery" !.
Decision - restate my boundary to Squid.
Loving Detachment released me from the chains of fear. That night I asked Squid my famous question :" baby WHY are you here ? You said you would stay and work on our marriage - and I am struggling to see anything I would call "marriagebuilding" from you right now. I want you , very much, but I do not need you. Do not stay only because you think I will fall apart if you leave. I will not.
The door on this marriage is open - you can leave any time, as can I. Just know that I will not tolerate perceived disrespect for long before I protect myself from it."
Squid flipped a switch that night like so many WS do.
Even when I make a bad decision using the facts loving detachment presented me, I could simply apply LD to the NEW situation and make a new decision in light of my experience.
Does any of this make any sense ? I hope it helps.
Enjoy !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I was working out a situation with a friend the other day and it occurred to me FINALLY how to describe "loving detachment" in a practically applicable way.
In my own affair-battle, and in plan A , loving detachment was without doubt the technique that helped the most to get through the very bad times. It allowed me breathing space to be rational when faced with irrationality.
I have advised for panicking folks in the heat of this fight to "detach" but I always struggled to INSTRUCT them how to do it.
Well, a day late and a dollar short, but here goes - in case it helps anyone:
However vicious or entitled a persons actions may be towards us, and however dark a situation may appear, it is a stark realisation that it is OURSELVES who render events with the power to frighten or hurt ourselves.
Some folks who tried to adopt loving detachment tried to IGNORE evil perpetrated in their lives and respond with a false rictus smile to the person who is hurting them. That is not what loving detachment is for me and I chide myself for not being able to explain sooner.
Loving detachment was a way I found to strip away the scariness and portent I attributed to events and look only at the core elements of these events.
I'll start with a non infidelity example :
A banana skin skids to a halt at your feet, when you are rushing and feeling low, and you barely miss slipping on it. Things you might think while in an emotional state:
"I could have slipped on that ! GOD I might have broken my neck ! I Bet my spouse threw that there to kill me for my insurance ? What if there are more banana skins ? OH NO, I have to LIVE in a world of banana skins for ever boo hoo hoo !"
What loving detachment thinks :
"A banana skin. I need to step around that so I don't slip. Stay vigilant in case of further banana skins as I can only control my OWN placement of banana skins, not other people's."
See ?
It doesn't matter if a person tried to sabotage you with that banana skin,OR if it was dropped accidentally by a passing magic flying monkey, the core challenge, and correct response is identical once you strip away all the layers of portent you ascribe to an event.
When Squid would attend karate competitions that I suspected OM may be at, against my direct request a wellspring of panic and fear surged within me. " She'll be kissing him ! Maybe they're not even at a karate event! Perhaps they've left to elope !"
Then I shouted "Stop! Detach! " to myself.
Facts :
1. Squid went to referee a weekend competition against my request less than a month after d-day. The only thing I know for sure is she won't be home over Saturday night.
2. Even if she *IS* PA'ing with OM, it does not change our situation.I Expect her to be wayward at this time. I am not "more cuckolded" by this ,if so.
3. I know there IS a competition at the time / place she says and that she is sharing a room with a trustworthy mutual friend.
4. How can I affect this in future ? Well, exposing to OM GF may apply a compulsion to OM not to attend these events. I should expose.
5. The weekend without soaking up Squids poison gives me a respite ! I will take the kids to a childrens' farm !
Loving detachment is DELIBERATELY stripping away portent from events and facts to allow calm rationalisation as to whether you can affect a situation positively or not.
It is not ignoring, it is not soaking up, it is not tolerating. It is revealing and dealing with the FACTS as practically as possible.
Another real example :
Event : Squid is highly entitled and is bullying me in her affair pomp, in the second whole week after NC established. She is making no effort to be transparent nor to work on our marriage. Highly dismissive, vituperative. I am terrified, the kids are being hurt.
WHOA Bob !!! LOVING DETACHMENT MODE PLEASE :
What would I do if I were not afraid ?
- I'd tell Squid that I would rather live without her than WITH her this mean and disrespectful
What am I afraid of ?
- That this is the best Squid can ever give me and that she would leave if I enforced a boundary requiring more
SO this is a dignity issue. Best case is that I get my baby AND my dignity. Whats the best compromise ?
- That I keep my dignity and lose my baby.
So, loving detachment, what are the FACTS to consider ?
1. She could leave ANY time she wanted with or without my protecting my dignity
2. If she left as a result of having to respect minimum boundaries, I am only worse off if I value that toxic corruption of a marriage more than my own dignity.
3. If she leaves I will be healthy,have the support of my employer and my kids and we will be fine, after a time of sadness. It is highly unlikely that we will be broken by this.
4. If she stays and respects my boundaries we may all just "win the lottery" !.
Decision - restate my boundary to Squid.
Loving Detachment released me from the chains of fear. That night I asked Squid my famous question :" baby WHY are you here ? You said you would stay and work on our marriage - and I am struggling to see anything I would call "marriagebuilding" from you right now. I want you , very much, but I do not need you. Do not stay only because you think I will fall apart if you leave. I will not.
The door on this marriage is open - you can leave any time, as can I. Just know that I will not tolerate perceived disrespect for long before I protect myself from it."
Squid flipped a switch that night like so many WS do.
Even when I make a bad decision using the facts loving detachment presented me, I could simply apply LD to the NEW situation and make a new decision in light of my experience.
Does any of this make any sense ? I hope it helps.
"POJA does not apply" - by Dr Harley - 06/12/08 04:21 PM
mtkat:
I agree with tst. There's no hope for your marriage as long as your husband has any contact with his lover/ex-lover. I've not had a chance to read everything on this sting, and I may be missing the point entirely, but I get the impression that his affair is driving you nuts. If he works with her, I can fully understand why.
I recommend plan B primarily to help a betrayed spouse avoid serious physical and mental damage due to the intense amount of stress that infidelity causes. The POJA does not apply in situations where a person's health or safety is at stake, and this is a good example of one of those situations. You must take steps to protect yourself, and that means violating the POJA under these conditions.
Plan A may apply to some extent until you implement plan B. It's always a good idea to have left a positive feeling in an US just before you leave. But you may be too upset to actually achieve it. As he gives you excuses for bad behavior, and lies about his whereabouts, you will not be able to respond appropriately. But once you're separated from your husband and have no contact with him, and have a chance to clear your head, I think you'll find that you can think this entire situation through more logically and unemotionally. In fact, I usually recommend that a BS in your position move to another city or state where you can be surrounded by those who love and care for you. Then, offer your husband the opportunity to move there with you. If he starts a new life with you somewhere else, it would make your recovery much easier. To stay put would make it almost impossible, especially if his lover is close by.
Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Written on THIS THREAD June 2008
I agree with tst. There's no hope for your marriage as long as your husband has any contact with his lover/ex-lover. I've not had a chance to read everything on this sting, and I may be missing the point entirely, but I get the impression that his affair is driving you nuts. If he works with her, I can fully understand why.
I recommend plan B primarily to help a betrayed spouse avoid serious physical and mental damage due to the intense amount of stress that infidelity causes. The POJA does not apply in situations where a person's health or safety is at stake, and this is a good example of one of those situations. You must take steps to protect yourself, and that means violating the POJA under these conditions.
Plan A may apply to some extent until you implement plan B. It's always a good idea to have left a positive feeling in an US just before you leave. But you may be too upset to actually achieve it. As he gives you excuses for bad behavior, and lies about his whereabouts, you will not be able to respond appropriately. But once you're separated from your husband and have no contact with him, and have a chance to clear your head, I think you'll find that you can think this entire situation through more logically and unemotionally. In fact, I usually recommend that a BS in your position move to another city or state where you can be surrounded by those who love and care for you. Then, offer your husband the opportunity to move there with you. If he starts a new life with you somewhere else, it would make your recovery much easier. To stay put would make it almost impossible, especially if his lover is close by.
Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Written on THIS THREAD June 2008
Why do affair marriages fail? - 07/12/08 02:49 PM
5% is the correct figure and it pretty much is discussed in any/all affair/infidelity books to some degree.
Here's one from Frank Pittman's "Private Lies":
Quote
In the book Private Lies by Dr. Frank Pittman, he has a very good summary of reasons why second marriages between persons involved in an affair very seldom succeed.
Generally he notes that disasters are only inevitable when people use romance to jump from marriage to marriage without a rest stop between. He says that there is something inherently doomed in those marriages that begin as marriage-wrecking affairs.
He noted that in his practice while over half the people who get into romantic affairs end up divorced, only one-fourth marry the affairee. It is likely that over three-fourths of these affair marriages end up in divorce. He says that there is a greater likelihood that the divorcing partner will be back with the original spouse in five years that that the romantic affair will be a stable marriage at that time.
He gives 12 reasons for this phenomenon:
• Intervention of reality
• Guilt
• Disparity of sacrifice
• Expectations
• General distrust of marriage
• Distrust of affairee
• Divided loyalties
• The nature of infidels
• The nature of affairees
• Romance
• Scapegoating the betrayed
• Unshared history
Out of 100 couples, (Pittman’s sample in his book private lies)
He said 50% of affairs couples divorced.
But, only 12% (12) actually married OP.
And then 75% of those failed (12*.75)= 9
Thus only 3 married betrayers are left
These are the defects he lists for marriages between the spouse and the OP.
1) The intervention of Reality: Divorce in these marriages tends to take place very early in the marriage. During th affair, the infidel and perhaps the affairee are in a state of intensely stimulating unreality. The second marriage itself seems to be a swithc that throws the lights on and illuminates the mess that has accumulated. It is as if the romance had seemed real, while the divorce didnt. Only after the remarriage did the divorce become real enough for the lovers to see that it was all a horrible mistake. The affairs that become marriages typically were so intense they were never questioned at all. During the divorce, reality never set in sufficiently to let the romance be evaluated and questioned. The romance was so romantic on one ever got around to asking if it was sane.
2) Guilt.. People who have wrecked a family have inflicted much pain, and they have a lot they could feel guilty about. As reality sets in, they see many things they were overlooking. They may have felt no guilt during the affair and divorce, and the guilt they feel after the romantic marriage may come as a suprise to both of them. It is generally assumed that people who dont permit themselves to be happy must be feeling guilty about somethingm and are unhappy as a way of punishing themselves for their misdeeds. One aspect of guilt is the rluctance to enjoy ones ill-gotten gains. Another aspect of guilt is the urge to return to the scene of the crime and in some way make amends. As a romantic newlywed resists the joys of the ex-mate who was deserted so blitheyly, the new mate can feel disoriented and betrayed.
3) Disparity of sacrifice... Divorces are expensive luxuries. Whatever the financial cost, the emotional cost is far greater. Anyone after losing that much, will be drained, exhausted and depressed. It is particularly difficult when the exhausted survivor of a debilitating divorce marries the triumphant winner of the struggle. If the romantic partner is marrying for the first time, and especially if the courtship has been treacherous and insecure, the new mate will be ecstatic. A new couple may feel a disparity in what had to be sacrificed to bring them together. The partner who has never been divorced may have difficulty understanding the complexity of emotions toward the previous family.
4) Expectations.. Then there is the feeling that anything that cost this much emotionally had damn well better be worth it. The greater the sacrifices, the greater the expectations from the new marriage. Now that the promised land has been reached, it should flow with milk and honey. But instead, the new couple are just 2 tired warriors with no fight left in them. Whatever these people were expecting, the best they are likey to find now is the ordinariness of real life, the dubious peace between glorious battles. The more people enjoy the battles involved in wrecking and escaping marriages, the less they are likely to enjoy the business as usual of the new marriage that was the destination of it all.
5) General Distrust of Marriage.. Of course, anyone who has been unhappily married is likely to develop a strong distrust of the institution of marriage. People whose marriages fell apart during affairs are likey to end up distrusting marriages rather than distrusting affaris. People who distrust marriage have a vey hard time being in one.
6) Distrust of affairee..It might seem appropriate for someone to go out with them, or even to marry them, but not quite appropriate for someone to have an affair with them. Affairs are considered dishonerable acts, and peope who feel guilty for having affairs believe that they are dishonorable and their partner must be dishonorable too.
7) Divided Loyalties..During the affair tnd the divorce, the romantic couple isolate themselves. It is not only the betrayed spouses who are erased from awareness, but also the children, the families, friends, anyone who attempts to pull the romantic couple from the quicksand of their affair. But after the remarriage, there may be a longing to reestablish connections with families and friends and this may be more difficult than expected. Each close relationship and some that were amazingly casual may have to be renegotiated in view of the hurt caused to others.
8) The nature of infidels.... People who get themselves into affairs have some specific characteristics that must influence the course of their subsequent marriages. Each kind of infidel is different. Most of those who end up marrying an affair partner are romatics who drift hypnotically through this romantic high without taking much responsibility. Romantic remarriage seldom works, not only because of th unrealistic nature of romance, but also because of the reality-avoiding nature of romantics.
9)The nature of affairees.... Affairees want whatever they want from a relationship, jsut as everyone else does, but what makes them unusual is that they seek their goals among the married rather than the single. They choose partners who are not in position to marry them, and who are engaging in the relationship at great risk. People like this are clearly angry with marriage, and perhaps with the opposite sex. They believe marriage doesnt work, and they demonstrate that by breaking up another marriage as they find a partner for themselves.
10) Romance.. People who believe in the chemistry of romance dont bother to learn much about the physics of relationships. When the romance begins to fade, romantics know little about how to solve those problems that they have relied on romance to transcend. It is painful to watch a romantic relationship dissolve. It happens so suddenly, and so totally. These people have alredy demonstrated that they would rather get divorced than learn physics, so it is far easier for them to follow the same pattern.
11) Scapegoating of cuckolds... During the affair and divorce, the romantic couple conspired to convince each other that the defective marriage was the fault of the cuckold. To acknowledge otherwise, now that remarriage has taken place, seems a betrayal of the rescue fantasies that fed the romance.
12) Unshared history... Even if the new marriage survives all of these obstacles, there is one further characteristic of all second marriages: The absence of a shared history that brings familiarity torelationships that began earlier in life. If a romantic marriage has wrecked a previous marriage or two, the history of the relationship is painful to both partners, and possibly somewhat embarrasing to others. The new partners keep thinking about it and justifying it, but it is hard to talk about lightly, in the familiar, safe manner of people who can tell their old war stories without guilt. However intense their commitment, people who share a guilty past arent totally rpoud of their new marriage.
[ September 12, 2002, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]
Generally he notes that disasters are only inevitable when people use romance to jump from marriage to marriage without a rest stop between. He says that there is something inherently doomed in those marriages that begin as marriage-wrecking affairs.
He noted that in his practice while over half the people who get into romantic affairs end up divorced, only one-fourth marry the affairee. It is likely that over three-fourths of these affair marriages end up in divorce. He says that there is a greater likelihood that the divorcing partner will be back with the original spouse in five years that that the romantic affair will be a stable marriage at that time.
He gives 12 reasons for this phenomenon:
• Intervention of reality
• Guilt
• Disparity of sacrifice
• Expectations
• General distrust of marriage
• Distrust of affairee
• Divided loyalties
• The nature of infidels
• The nature of affairees
• Romance
• Scapegoating the betrayed
• Unshared history
Out of 100 couples, (Pittman’s sample in his book private lies)
He said 50% of affairs couples divorced.
But, only 12% (12) actually married OP.
And then 75% of those failed (12*.75)= 9
Thus only 3 married betrayers are left
These are the defects he lists for marriages between the spouse and the OP.
1) The intervention of Reality: Divorce in these marriages tends to take place very early in the marriage. During th affair, the infidel and perhaps the affairee are in a state of intensely stimulating unreality. The second marriage itself seems to be a swithc that throws the lights on and illuminates the mess that has accumulated. It is as if the romance had seemed real, while the divorce didnt. Only after the remarriage did the divorce become real enough for the lovers to see that it was all a horrible mistake. The affairs that become marriages typically were so intense they were never questioned at all. During the divorce, reality never set in sufficiently to let the romance be evaluated and questioned. The romance was so romantic on one ever got around to asking if it was sane.
2) Guilt.. People who have wrecked a family have inflicted much pain, and they have a lot they could feel guilty about. As reality sets in, they see many things they were overlooking. They may have felt no guilt during the affair and divorce, and the guilt they feel after the romantic marriage may come as a suprise to both of them. It is generally assumed that people who dont permit themselves to be happy must be feeling guilty about somethingm and are unhappy as a way of punishing themselves for their misdeeds. One aspect of guilt is the rluctance to enjoy ones ill-gotten gains. Another aspect of guilt is the urge to return to the scene of the crime and in some way make amends. As a romantic newlywed resists the joys of the ex-mate who was deserted so blitheyly, the new mate can feel disoriented and betrayed.
3) Disparity of sacrifice... Divorces are expensive luxuries. Whatever the financial cost, the emotional cost is far greater. Anyone after losing that much, will be drained, exhausted and depressed. It is particularly difficult when the exhausted survivor of a debilitating divorce marries the triumphant winner of the struggle. If the romantic partner is marrying for the first time, and especially if the courtship has been treacherous and insecure, the new mate will be ecstatic. A new couple may feel a disparity in what had to be sacrificed to bring them together. The partner who has never been divorced may have difficulty understanding the complexity of emotions toward the previous family.
4) Expectations.. Then there is the feeling that anything that cost this much emotionally had damn well better be worth it. The greater the sacrifices, the greater the expectations from the new marriage. Now that the promised land has been reached, it should flow with milk and honey. But instead, the new couple are just 2 tired warriors with no fight left in them. Whatever these people were expecting, the best they are likey to find now is the ordinariness of real life, the dubious peace between glorious battles. The more people enjoy the battles involved in wrecking and escaping marriages, the less they are likely to enjoy the business as usual of the new marriage that was the destination of it all.
5) General Distrust of Marriage.. Of course, anyone who has been unhappily married is likely to develop a strong distrust of the institution of marriage. People whose marriages fell apart during affairs are likey to end up distrusting marriages rather than distrusting affaris. People who distrust marriage have a vey hard time being in one.
6) Distrust of affairee..It might seem appropriate for someone to go out with them, or even to marry them, but not quite appropriate for someone to have an affair with them. Affairs are considered dishonerable acts, and peope who feel guilty for having affairs believe that they are dishonorable and their partner must be dishonorable too.
7) Divided Loyalties..During the affair tnd the divorce, the romantic couple isolate themselves. It is not only the betrayed spouses who are erased from awareness, but also the children, the families, friends, anyone who attempts to pull the romantic couple from the quicksand of their affair. But after the remarriage, there may be a longing to reestablish connections with families and friends and this may be more difficult than expected. Each close relationship and some that were amazingly casual may have to be renegotiated in view of the hurt caused to others.
8) The nature of infidels.... People who get themselves into affairs have some specific characteristics that must influence the course of their subsequent marriages. Each kind of infidel is different. Most of those who end up marrying an affair partner are romatics who drift hypnotically through this romantic high without taking much responsibility. Romantic remarriage seldom works, not only because of th unrealistic nature of romance, but also because of the reality-avoiding nature of romantics.
9)The nature of affairees.... Affairees want whatever they want from a relationship, jsut as everyone else does, but what makes them unusual is that they seek their goals among the married rather than the single. They choose partners who are not in position to marry them, and who are engaging in the relationship at great risk. People like this are clearly angry with marriage, and perhaps with the opposite sex. They believe marriage doesnt work, and they demonstrate that by breaking up another marriage as they find a partner for themselves.
10) Romance.. People who believe in the chemistry of romance dont bother to learn much about the physics of relationships. When the romance begins to fade, romantics know little about how to solve those problems that they have relied on romance to transcend. It is painful to watch a romantic relationship dissolve. It happens so suddenly, and so totally. These people have alredy demonstrated that they would rather get divorced than learn physics, so it is far easier for them to follow the same pattern.
11) Scapegoating of cuckolds... During the affair and divorce, the romantic couple conspired to convince each other that the defective marriage was the fault of the cuckold. To acknowledge otherwise, now that remarriage has taken place, seems a betrayal of the rescue fantasies that fed the romance.
12) Unshared history... Even if the new marriage survives all of these obstacles, there is one further characteristic of all second marriages: The absence of a shared history that brings familiarity torelationships that began earlier in life. If a romantic marriage has wrecked a previous marriage or two, the history of the relationship is painful to both partners, and possibly somewhat embarrasing to others. The new partners keep thinking about it and justifying it, but it is hard to talk about lightly, in the familiar, safe manner of people who can tell their old war stories without guilt. However intense their commitment, people who share a guilty past arent totally rpoud of their new marriage.
[ September 12, 2002, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]
http:/
How to restore/destroy a marriage - 07/25/08 03:57 AM
a real oldie but goodie
link to original
link to original
Quote
1. Spend as much time together as possible
Spend as little time together as possible. Make sure all the time you have together includes the kids as a buffer to intimacy. Don't ever invite your spouse anywhere. If she invites you somewhere, make it very clear that you are not going to enjoy yourself with comments like "Okay, but I'm really tired" and "We're not going to TALK all evening, are we?"
2. A healthy sexual relationship is important to a marraige. Communicate openly about sexual issues. Be both receptive to your husband and intiate sex yourself.
Take it if its offered (why not?). Never comment on your spouse's body or make any positive comments about the experience. Afterwards, say as little as possible. Make it clear you can't wait to get away from her. It's okay to initiate sex but only if its completely spontaneous so you can remove yourself from any responsibility for it.
3. When you get home from work, go directly to your spouse and give them a kiss so they know how happy you are to see them and get the evening off to a pleasant start.
When you get home, go directly to the kids so your spouse gets the very clear message that they are the only reason you are there at all.
4. Give your spouse lots of affection and reassurance of your love.
Keep your spouse constantly off kilter by varying the amount of affection you will accept and/or express.
5. Communicate openly with your spouse.
Never initiate a conversation. Keep conversations as superficial as possible with the phrase "I don't know". Any time the conversation might get to a deeper level, talk about work.
6. Share with your spouse the details of your affair. Reassure her of your trustworthiness by your willingness to answer questions openly and honestly.
Refuse to discuss your affair. Frequently agree to a timeline for when the affair will be discussed, but then renege on the agreement. This way, the affair remains the central issue in your relationship and your spouse can NEVER put the affair behind her. Become offended whenever your spouse suggests that you can't be trusted.
Spend as little time together as possible. Make sure all the time you have together includes the kids as a buffer to intimacy. Don't ever invite your spouse anywhere. If she invites you somewhere, make it very clear that you are not going to enjoy yourself with comments like "Okay, but I'm really tired" and "We're not going to TALK all evening, are we?"
2. A healthy sexual relationship is important to a marraige. Communicate openly about sexual issues. Be both receptive to your husband and intiate sex yourself.
Take it if its offered (why not?). Never comment on your spouse's body or make any positive comments about the experience. Afterwards, say as little as possible. Make it clear you can't wait to get away from her. It's okay to initiate sex but only if its completely spontaneous so you can remove yourself from any responsibility for it.
3. When you get home from work, go directly to your spouse and give them a kiss so they know how happy you are to see them and get the evening off to a pleasant start.
When you get home, go directly to the kids so your spouse gets the very clear message that they are the only reason you are there at all.
4. Give your spouse lots of affection and reassurance of your love.
Keep your spouse constantly off kilter by varying the amount of affection you will accept and/or express.
5. Communicate openly with your spouse.
Never initiate a conversation. Keep conversations as superficial as possible with the phrase "I don't know". Any time the conversation might get to a deeper level, talk about work.
6. Share with your spouse the details of your affair. Reassure her of your trustworthiness by your willingness to answer questions openly and honestly.
Refuse to discuss your affair. Frequently agree to a timeline for when the affair will be discussed, but then renege on the agreement. This way, the affair remains the central issue in your relationship and your spouse can NEVER put the affair behind her. Become offended whenever your spouse suggests that you can't be trusted.
The art of marriage - 07/25/08 04:03 AM
another oldie but goodie
link to original
link to original
Quote
The Art of Marriage
Happiness in marriage is not something that just happens. A good marriage must be created. In the art of marriage the little things are the big things
It is never being too old to hold hands.
It is remembering to say, "I love you," at least once each day.
It is never going to sleep angry.
It is at no time taking the other for granted; the courtship shouldn't end with the honeymoon, it should continue through all the years.
It is having a mutual sense of values and common objectives; it is standing together facing the world.
It is forming a circle of love that gathers in the whole family.
It is doing things for each other, not in the attitude of duty or sacrifice, but in the spirit of joy.
It is speaking words of appreciation and demonstrating gratitude in thoughtful ways.
It is not expecting the husband to wear a halo or the wife to have the wings of an angel. It is not looking for perfection in each other. It is cultivating flexibility, patience, understanding and a sense of humour.
It is having the capacity to forgive and forget.
It is giving each other an atmosphere in which each can grow.
It is finding the room for the things of the spirit. It is common search for the good and beautiful.
It is establishing a relationship as in which the independence is equal, the dependence is mutual and the obligation is reciprocal.
It is not only marrying the right partner, it is being the right partner.
It is discovering what marriage can be, at its best, as expressed in the words Mark Twain used in a tribute to his wife: "Wherever she was, there was Eden."
Happiness in marriage is not something that just happens. A good marriage must be created. In the art of marriage the little things are the big things
It is never being too old to hold hands.
It is remembering to say, "I love you," at least once each day.
It is never going to sleep angry.
It is at no time taking the other for granted; the courtship shouldn't end with the honeymoon, it should continue through all the years.
It is having a mutual sense of values and common objectives; it is standing together facing the world.
It is forming a circle of love that gathers in the whole family.
It is doing things for each other, not in the attitude of duty or sacrifice, but in the spirit of joy.
It is speaking words of appreciation and demonstrating gratitude in thoughtful ways.
It is not expecting the husband to wear a halo or the wife to have the wings of an angel. It is not looking for perfection in each other. It is cultivating flexibility, patience, understanding and a sense of humour.
It is having the capacity to forgive and forget.
It is giving each other an atmosphere in which each can grow.
It is finding the room for the things of the spirit. It is common search for the good and beautiful.
It is establishing a relationship as in which the independence is equal, the dependence is mutual and the obligation is reciprocal.
It is not only marrying the right partner, it is being the right partner.
It is discovering what marriage can be, at its best, as expressed in the words Mark Twain used in a tribute to his wife: "Wherever she was, there was Eden."
Plan A and Schnarch - 07/25/08 04:14 AM
Pepperband's "ah-ha" about plan A
link to original thread
link to original thread
Quote
Looking back ... I can see I worked myself through a very awkward "plan A" .... although I never heard of plan A until years into recovery and I started poking around this site. Looking back ... I can see my efforts to become differentiated ... although I did not read Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage " until years into recovery.
Plan A is very much complementary to Schnarch's ideas of differentiation. Developing a positive identity within the context of a marriage struggling to overcome infidelity. Developing a strong sense of self-worth that is valid both within and outside the boundaries of the marriage.
I can NOW see plan A as a path to greater self worth and NOT necessarily as a plan to "win back" the heart and mind of the infidel ... although that might happen. It is a plan to differentiate myself and identify myself as a worthy person apart from the circumstances of the marriage relationship. Plan A'ers are not like doormats to wipe your feet upon and to mis-use .... more like a *welcome home* sign... if both persons choose to re-inter the marriage! Plan A says : "I can hold onto my better self under the worst of circumstances".
Schnarch says: "We develop a contingent identity based on a 'self-in-relationship'. Because our identity depends on the relationship, we may demand that our partner doesn't change so that our identity won't either."
Then ... comes the grenade of infidelity tossed into the marriage and the entire fusion of identities is blown apart! The aftermath of the grenade then boils down to this question ....
WHO THE HECK AM I ... AND ... WHO THE HECK ARE YOU?
And, asking this question to the *fogged-in* infidel is pointless. They got INTO the affair because they were lost to themselves, and went searching for a new self .... and, INSTEAD of differentiating themselves ... they fused identity to yet another relationship ... actually moving away from a healthy differentiated view of their self-worth ----> I am wonderful because my affair partner thinks so.
Plan A says and demonstrates to OURSELVES: I am not some weak pathetic person deserving to be abandoned or cheated. I am demonstrating decent and loving behaviour. I am worthy of love and devotion. ... If the infidel notices .... double bonus points. If not, I become better differentiated along the way ... and I can see my strengths despite terrible and hurtful circumstances.
Once I become more fully differentiated and have stable and accurate self-worth (after the grenade) ... I am then in the position to identify
healthy choices. I can honestly say that I will be a sensational woman within this marriage... or after this marriage terminates.
I think I finally understand what I went through. I understand that I am the better woman for it. I understand my spouse is the better man for it.
That is a powerful message to myself. The anxiety that floods the betrayed spouse is the perceived loss of identity . Self worth and a differentiated identity is the harvest of plan A .
I think I get it now.
Best to all of you travelers on this journey!
Plan A is very much complementary to Schnarch's ideas of differentiation. Developing a positive identity within the context of a marriage struggling to overcome infidelity. Developing a strong sense of self-worth that is valid both within and outside the boundaries of the marriage.
I can NOW see plan A as a path to greater self worth and NOT necessarily as a plan to "win back" the heart and mind of the infidel ... although that might happen. It is a plan to differentiate myself and identify myself as a worthy person apart from the circumstances of the marriage relationship. Plan A'ers are not like doormats to wipe your feet upon and to mis-use .... more like a *welcome home* sign... if both persons choose to re-inter the marriage! Plan A says : "I can hold onto my better self under the worst of circumstances".
Schnarch says: "We develop a contingent identity based on a 'self-in-relationship'. Because our identity depends on the relationship, we may demand that our partner doesn't change so that our identity won't either."
Then ... comes the grenade of infidelity tossed into the marriage and the entire fusion of identities is blown apart! The aftermath of the grenade then boils down to this question ....
WHO THE HECK AM I ... AND ... WHO THE HECK ARE YOU?
And, asking this question to the *fogged-in* infidel is pointless. They got INTO the affair because they were lost to themselves, and went searching for a new self .... and, INSTEAD of differentiating themselves ... they fused identity to yet another relationship ... actually moving away from a healthy differentiated view of their self-worth ----> I am wonderful because my affair partner thinks so.
Plan A says and demonstrates to OURSELVES: I am not some weak pathetic person deserving to be abandoned or cheated. I am demonstrating decent and loving behaviour. I am worthy of love and devotion. ... If the infidel notices .... double bonus points. If not, I become better differentiated along the way ... and I can see my strengths despite terrible and hurtful circumstances.
Once I become more fully differentiated and have stable and accurate self-worth (after the grenade) ... I am then in the position to identify
healthy choices. I can honestly say that I will be a sensational woman within this marriage... or after this marriage terminates.
I think I finally understand what I went through. I understand that I am the better woman for it. I understand my spouse is the better man for it.
That is a powerful message to myself. The anxiety that floods the betrayed spouse is the perceived loss of identity . Self worth and a differentiated identity is the harvest of plan A .
I think I get it now.
Best to all of you travelers on this journey!
REVISED "be still" by ARK - 09/06/08 06:02 PM
The following is repost of an old old post....
with the following disclaimer...
be still does NOT and never has meant dont work on plan a plan b and or plan divorce if that is where you are or should be...
I am a huge advocate of having a plan
be still has not ever now nor never mean stay in any type of abuse....
I for one have only ever consistantly advocated getting out of any and all types of abuse with a well thought out safety plan..both "here" and in the real world....
this whole plan was born from reading post after post after after post from BS
asking
why did he/she say this or that
why did he/she do this or that
why why why
blah blah blah...
who knows why....
but I can assure you that
agonizing
ruminating
spinning it around and around in your head
thinking and examining every tiny thing they do....
driving yourself crazy staying only focused on the WS
not eating
not sleeping
imagining what the WS is doing every second of the day
is daunting and wastes energy needed for the BS to stay focused and on the path to healing....
It also about the fact that so many expect the WS to be instantly sorry on D-day
instantly insightful to their actions of destuctions
instantly disgusted by the thought of seeing or talking to the OP...
all instantly vanishing from the WS...all the wall of rationalization needed to have an affair..gone..
doesn't usually quite work that way.....even though the BS is shocked by that
that's what be still post has always been about....
so if you want to bump the be still post...
bump this one....
the original post stands on its own in my opinion..
from the moment it was written it clearly states that it is not about saving every marriage...
says nothing about staying in any type of abuse...
and is not ever about not working on a plan..
it is about the calming the thoughts swirling in your brain that distract your focus and hurt you....
thank you for your attention to this ridiculousness
Some of the most painful posts to read here ....is the confusion and turmoil of betrayed spouses....
those post D-day days weeks and sadly months in which so many things are left unanswered, unaddressed and emtpy...
be still.....
In our turmoil and chaos and the gnawing need to fix and address.....bs bring into their hearts more pain and crisis....
be still...
There was once a saying I read somewhere that went something like to really ever understand someone else we must crawl inside of them and feel the gentle beat of their heart....
easier probably for a BS to move a mountain than to grasp and work from that realm....
but be still...
each moment of stillness you can buy grab or gobble is a moment in which you are free from the pain and free from the fear..
fear of doing the wrong thing
fear of saying the wrong thing...
the goal is not marriage rebuilding at any cost...
the goal is guiding yourself to a place of stillness...no matter the outcome....
the anatomy of a WS is that they changed and molded their own thought processes so that they could engage in a affair....
they did this....
they did this....over time and in a way in which they can barely see the reality of this...but they did do it...
be still
it takes time.....
too many posts are from BS with unrealistic EXPECTATIONS which will harm you...
it is unrealistic to think that the thought processes needed to engage in such vile actions....vanishes over night
working through affair issues takes time...gobs and gobs of it...
and if you find yourself standing in a place of demanding change and specified responses, introspection, apologies, and instant change...
be still
for you are causing more grief that you need to burdon....
they did this...and they must undo this...
will they?
the truth is we don't know..
but to ever be a whole person again they darn well better...otherwise they carry their chaos on and on..and in the end no BS needs to burdon that.....
WS, though hard to see when they have used you as a weapon are very very damaged inside.....
they can not face that damage...and since that damage is YOU the BS...they often can not face you..
so they continue to waffle and wallow in the path that brought them to this place...
the way of rationalizing and justifying downright no two ways about it dispicable behavior acts....
force them to the face and process at once..
they will withdrawal
they will deny
they will retaliate
or even worse they will self destruct themselves....
be still....
don't force responses and actions and answers...be still and know that their non-responses , non actions and non answers ARE their answers....and you can hold them accountable to that
be still
and then make your moves....
ARK^^
with the following disclaimer...
be still does NOT and never has meant dont work on plan a plan b and or plan divorce if that is where you are or should be...
I am a huge advocate of having a plan
be still has not ever now nor never mean stay in any type of abuse....
I for one have only ever consistantly advocated getting out of any and all types of abuse with a well thought out safety plan..both "here" and in the real world....
this whole plan was born from reading post after post after after post from BS
asking
why did he/she say this or that
why did he/she do this or that
why why why
blah blah blah...
who knows why....
but I can assure you that
agonizing
ruminating
spinning it around and around in your head
thinking and examining every tiny thing they do....
driving yourself crazy staying only focused on the WS
not eating
not sleeping
imagining what the WS is doing every second of the day
is daunting and wastes energy needed for the BS to stay focused and on the path to healing....
It also about the fact that so many expect the WS to be instantly sorry on D-day
instantly insightful to their actions of destuctions
instantly disgusted by the thought of seeing or talking to the OP...
all instantly vanishing from the WS...all the wall of rationalization needed to have an affair..gone..
doesn't usually quite work that way.....even though the BS is shocked by that
that's what be still post has always been about....
so if you want to bump the be still post...
bump this one....
the original post stands on its own in my opinion..
from the moment it was written it clearly states that it is not about saving every marriage...
says nothing about staying in any type of abuse...
and is not ever about not working on a plan..
it is about the calming the thoughts swirling in your brain that distract your focus and hurt you....
thank you for your attention to this ridiculousness
Some of the most painful posts to read here ....is the confusion and turmoil of betrayed spouses....
those post D-day days weeks and sadly months in which so many things are left unanswered, unaddressed and emtpy...
be still.....
In our turmoil and chaos and the gnawing need to fix and address.....bs bring into their hearts more pain and crisis....
be still...
There was once a saying I read somewhere that went something like to really ever understand someone else we must crawl inside of them and feel the gentle beat of their heart....
easier probably for a BS to move a mountain than to grasp and work from that realm....
but be still...
each moment of stillness you can buy grab or gobble is a moment in which you are free from the pain and free from the fear..
fear of doing the wrong thing
fear of saying the wrong thing...
the goal is not marriage rebuilding at any cost...
the goal is guiding yourself to a place of stillness...no matter the outcome....
the anatomy of a WS is that they changed and molded their own thought processes so that they could engage in a affair....
they did this....
they did this....over time and in a way in which they can barely see the reality of this...but they did do it...
be still
it takes time.....
too many posts are from BS with unrealistic EXPECTATIONS which will harm you...
it is unrealistic to think that the thought processes needed to engage in such vile actions....vanishes over night
working through affair issues takes time...gobs and gobs of it...
and if you find yourself standing in a place of demanding change and specified responses, introspection, apologies, and instant change...
be still
for you are causing more grief that you need to burdon....
they did this...and they must undo this...
will they?
the truth is we don't know..
but to ever be a whole person again they darn well better...otherwise they carry their chaos on and on..and in the end no BS needs to burdon that.....
WS, though hard to see when they have used you as a weapon are very very damaged inside.....
they can not face that damage...and since that damage is YOU the BS...they often can not face you..
so they continue to waffle and wallow in the path that brought them to this place...
the way of rationalizing and justifying downright no two ways about it dispicable behavior acts....
force them to the face and process at once..
they will withdrawal
they will deny
they will retaliate
or even worse they will self destruct themselves....
be still....
don't force responses and actions and answers...be still and know that their non-responses , non actions and non answers ARE their answers....and you can hold them accountable to that
be still
and then make your moves....
ARK^^
Re: Betrayed spouse ... it's the FEAR ... by * fish - 11/03/08 03:06 AM
OMG This is amazing!!! I love this post! Bravo!!!!! 
What an uplifting read. Thanks!
What an uplifting read. Thanks!
sexymamabear's requirements to coming home - 11/04/08 02:52 PM
Just getting your wayward home is not enough.
You want a spouse back who is not going to pull you into the chaos of a FALSE RECOVERY
Sexymamabear made this list. THIS is how Plan B should end.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
REQUIREMENTS TO COMING HOME
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Humility
Remorse
Surrender emotionally before me and spiritually before God
Godly sorrow (not fleshly sorrow) (Godly: sorry that I ever had the A & did this to our family. Fleshly: sorry I hurt you)
Authentic repentance
Owns his choices and the consequences they caused (to himself, me, children, extended family, friends, etc.)
Apology for the A and his hurtful actions before and after
Confession & apology to children
Confession to extended family & certain close friends that have confronted him
IC, MC, & Family C
Accountability forever to 3 men that I choose
Attend church again
NC Letter
Provide all cell phone & credit card records from this past year
Complete radical honesty about our entire history together
15+ hours together weekly
Pray with me daily
Polygraph
Post Nup agreement that provides for me very well if we ever divorce
You want a spouse back who is not going to pull you into the chaos of a FALSE RECOVERY
Sexymamabear made this list. THIS is how Plan B should end.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
REQUIREMENTS TO COMING HOME
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Humility
Remorse
Surrender emotionally before me and spiritually before God
Godly sorrow (not fleshly sorrow) (Godly: sorry that I ever had the A & did this to our family. Fleshly: sorry I hurt you)
Authentic repentance
Owns his choices and the consequences they caused (to himself, me, children, extended family, friends, etc.)
Apology for the A and his hurtful actions before and after
Confession & apology to children
Confession to extended family & certain close friends that have confronted him
IC, MC, & Family C
Accountability forever to 3 men that I choose
Attend church again
NC Letter
Provide all cell phone & credit card records from this past year
Complete radical honesty about our entire history together
15+ hours together weekly
Pray with me daily
Polygraph
Post Nup agreement that provides for me very well if we ever divorce
beware of your thoughts .... - 11/09/08 07:31 PM
beware of your thoughts, they become words
beware of your words, they become actions
beware of your actions, they become habits
beware of your habits, they become character
beware of your character, they become your destiny
beware of your words, they become actions
beware of your actions, they become habits
beware of your habits, they become character
beware of your character, they become your destiny
Re: beware of your thoughts .... - 11/14/08 10:03 PM
Bumpity Bump!
Re: beware of your thoughts .... - 11/14/08 10:12 PM
And once more for good measure.
Re: beware of your thoughts .... - 11/25/08 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
beware of your thoughts, they become words
beware of your words, they become actions
beware of your actions, they become habits
beware of your habits, they become character
beware of your character, they become your destiny
beware of your words, they become actions
beware of your actions, they become habits
beware of your habits, they become character
beware of your character, they become your destiny
Pep,
Very interesting that you put that on this thread.
Have you ever read "The Tongue-A Creative Force" by Charles Capps?
My sister gave it to me and I'm about half way through it. I highly reccomend it.
Amazin
Re: beware of your thoughts .... - 11/25/08 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by Amazin
Have you ever read "The Tongue-A Creative Force" by Charles Capps?
My sister gave it to me and I'm about half way through it. I highly reccomend it.
Amazin
My sister gave it to me and I'm about half way through it. I highly reccomend it.
Amazin
I've never heard of it. A book, right? Paperback?
Re: beware of your thoughts .... - 11/25/08 08:47 PM
Yes it's a paperback.
A christian book. A short read... about 175 pages. I think it was originally published in 1976.
ISBN-10: 0892740612
Amazon.com The tongue - A Creative Force
Amazin
A christian book. A short read... about 175 pages. I think it was originally published in 1976.
ISBN-10: 0892740612
Amazon.com The tongue - A Creative Force
Amazin
"apology" call from da'ho - by Bugsmom - 11/26/08 06:47 PM
FOR THOSE WHO WONDER WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF THE OW EVER DECIDED TO MAKE AN 'APOLOGY' - THIS IS THE LEVEL OF SINCERITY AN OW PROVIDES - NOT MUCH!
The following was written by Bugsmom:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well, I think I've bombed everyone's threads so I guess it's time to give some details on my own.
Chai - I am fairly certain that the 'trigger' for the Ho was finding out that I was on jury duty last week with a friend of hers. I'm sure he told her about Drac's latest conquest who works where Drac & I work. The Ho used to work with her, too! They were supposedly 'friends' at one time so the true trigger is that she is probably finally experiencing a bit of her own medicine & found out how bad it is.
I think she was hoping to get me to join with her in a joint Drac bashing bonding moment. Yeah,,, like that would EVER happen! I have all of you fine folks to help me out when I feel like bashing him! ha! As if she thinks that she doesn't deserve to be right there beside him in it ALL.
So, here's a bit more detail. It's kind of jumbled up but it's so hard to remember the order in which anything was said. She said a lot of it over and over again, as if she was going to convince me she was 'right'.
I'll try to put 'her' stuff in RED
My cell phone rang a little after 8 but I missed the call. The caller i.d. said "private". I didn't think anything of it, because sometimes V's # comes up that way, depending on where he is traveling. It rang again about 8:40 and I answered.
She told me who she was & I asked her WHY she was calling me
She just went off talking non-stop -= said she had never thought in a million years that she would ever be calling me. She'd 'learned' things over the last few months since "we broke up" and then just recently and she just HAD to call.
She said, "I'm sorry,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but you need to understand how terribly I was lied to!!"
And so it went for the bulk of the conversation. She was "Sorry, but,,,,,,,,,,"
I finally told her that any apology followed by the word 'but' is not an apology, it is a self-justification. That by saying that, she is not taking full responsibility for HER actions and that her supposed apology means nothing to me.
Here's some of the things I recall her saying -
I never dreamed I'd ever call you
I've found out so much over these last few months and recently,,,,I felt I needed to do this
I'm not the kind of person who would EVER EVER EVER do something like this BUT I was lied to!! (this was said over & over again)
He came into X Place of Work telling everyone that he was in the middle of a divorce
I asked around and I was told you guys were OVER - I told her this was a bunch of crap and that she CHOSE to acknowledge what she wanted to acknowledge and to ignore everything else. She was only justifying her actions AGAIN
I am a good person, ask anyone who knows me - - again, she said that over and over
I'm a CHRISTIAN
I've been in your shoes - - I told her she could NEVER have done what she did if that were true
If you had only confronted me, this never would have gone on - She said that several times until I finally told her that was enough of that because she isn't going to put ANY of HER actions on ME.
I 'wish' that you guys had worked things out - that he would have stayed with you but he kept telling me how it was over
I thought that by calling you this might bring you some healing, too - - I told her I don't need anything from her in order to 'heal'.
I needed to do this to heal myself - I'm pretty sure I told her I didn't really care anything about what she needed
You don't 'know' me
I don't want to 'open old wounds'
You can hate me if you want, you can say whatever you want, but I'm not a bad person
I'm not one of "those" women
I was vulnerable
I was lied to!!
I thought you would be more "open" with me
I am sorry,,,,,,,,,,, BUT
You have no idea the lies that I was told
One of the reasons I left him was that I'd found a letter that you'd written to him at the end,,,,and I figured out how much I'd been lied to - - I asked her, "let me guess, you also found out that you weren't the 'only one' didn't you?" She would not answer. I'm pretty sure this had to be my Plan B letter. Intersting that he kept it??
I "know" you sent me 2 letters,, it HAD to be from you because the first one in Feb 2007 said that he was still sleeping with his wife - - - now this is after saying she had NO idea that we were still together at all - - I don't know what letters she is referring to, but I have a feeling a close friend of mine may have done that without telling me but I don't know yet for sure.
"Looking back, going thru this did turn out to be a 'good thing' for me" - to which I replied, well forgive me if I don't give a [censored]
"Aren't you better off now? Aren't you???" - - I told her that was none of her business. She didn't care anything about me or my kids or my life before, the last thing I was going to do is share with her now
I want you to know that one of the reasons I had to do this is because I care for Ladybugs SO MUCH - -at this point I was ready to go through the phone and rip out her throat. If she cared so much for Ladybugs, she wouldn't have helped break up her parents. There's a lot of things she could have said (and did say) that hurt me personally, but when she wanted to bring my kids into the conversation she overstepped. It was right after this that I put an end to the call - - I didn't hang up on her but made it clear I was not going to discuss anything further with her.
She said she's wasn't surprised to learn about him & the latest Ho,,,but of course she doesn't care at all & thinks they are both messed up. It cracked me up when she said that she is not friends with Ho2,,,hasn't talked to her since she left X Place of Work but "it's not that I dislike her or anything". GEEZ, what a 2 faced bee-atch. Can't even admit to her me, her new best friend, that she doesn't like Ho2.
I laughed out loud when she told me she was a 'Christian', to which she took great offense. I told her several times, "Your actions speak for the kind of person you are".
I told her that I do not require anything from her to 'heal' and that I'd put her out of my life/thoughts a long time ago. When she said she didn't want to open old wounds, I replied, "Well it's to f'ing late now".
I mentioned at one point about not knowing what would have happened if I hadn't finally cut him off last August. The silence was deafening,,,,,,,,,,,so I continued and said, "Oh, I guess you didn't know that it was ME that cut him off? And you probably had no idea that it went on until August of last year did you? Hmmm, HURTS doesn't it?" Of course she denied that it hurt, but I didn't let her off the hook - - - I told her that I KNOW that it hurts "take it from someone who knows first hand".
She just kept going on and on. I finally asked, "Are you done yet? Have you said what you needed to say? Do you FEEL better? Because this is doing nothing for me"
I told her she will ALWAYS be one of 'those' women in my mind. She wanted me to talk to her about the 'lies' he'd told me. I told her that it is in the past and not something I was going to discuss with her. Yes I was lied to, but I've dealt with that. She made/chose her own path and she was going to have to live with it.
I did tell her that they BOTH bear responsibility in this. Drac did fact lie to BOTH of us. I've dealt with that. She chose her path and she has to deal with her own choices.
I said, "What do you expect from me? You participated in the utter destruction of my life and are responsible in the tearing apart of my family and the damage it has done to my kids. How can you possibly expect me to do any more than I have already? I've listened to you and I have been gracious. More gracious than what you deserve."
That's as much as I can recall right now. I don't know if it's really done me any good to put it into words or not. There's tons more things she said, all of which was pretty incredible to believe she was saying to me.
I'm just so PISSED. How DARE she? Talk about being blind sided. Last month I get called by her name, then I find out that he's seeing Ho2 - - and no one had the decency to give me a heads up so I wouldn't be blind sided at work, and now this?! Plus, it goes back to how DARE he in the first place? He pulls this [censored] and here I am STILL bearing the brunt of his actions and he doesn't have a clue or give a [censored]. HE should be the one having to deal with this crap, not me.
Yesterday I hadn't felt so horrible in a long, long time. I've felt sick to my stomach, I had a horrific headache, and my neck/shoulders feel like the are made of steel. I didn't sleep much, and when I did, I had nightmares.
The only reason for her call is that she wanted me to tell her she is not a bad person. She didn't and doesn't and never has cared about me or how I feel/felt. It was all about her. Not surprising,,,it took a pure selfish [censored] to do what she did and she sure hasn't changed.
So,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that's the story for what it's worth.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
link to original thread
The following was written by Bugsmom:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well, I think I've bombed everyone's threads so I guess it's time to give some details on my own.
Chai - I am fairly certain that the 'trigger' for the Ho was finding out that I was on jury duty last week with a friend of hers. I'm sure he told her about Drac's latest conquest who works where Drac & I work. The Ho used to work with her, too! They were supposedly 'friends' at one time so the true trigger is that she is probably finally experiencing a bit of her own medicine & found out how bad it is.
I think she was hoping to get me to join with her in a joint Drac bashing bonding moment. Yeah,,, like that would EVER happen! I have all of you fine folks to help me out when I feel like bashing him! ha! As if she thinks that she doesn't deserve to be right there beside him in it ALL.
So, here's a bit more detail. It's kind of jumbled up but it's so hard to remember the order in which anything was said. She said a lot of it over and over again, as if she was going to convince me she was 'right'.
I'll try to put 'her' stuff in RED
My cell phone rang a little after 8 but I missed the call. The caller i.d. said "private". I didn't think anything of it, because sometimes V's # comes up that way, depending on where he is traveling. It rang again about 8:40 and I answered.
She told me who she was & I asked her WHY she was calling me
She just went off talking non-stop -= said she had never thought in a million years that she would ever be calling me. She'd 'learned' things over the last few months since "we broke up" and then just recently and she just HAD to call.
She said, "I'm sorry,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but you need to understand how terribly I was lied to!!"
And so it went for the bulk of the conversation. She was "Sorry, but,,,,,,,,,,"
I finally told her that any apology followed by the word 'but' is not an apology, it is a self-justification. That by saying that, she is not taking full responsibility for HER actions and that her supposed apology means nothing to me.
Here's some of the things I recall her saying -
I never dreamed I'd ever call you
I've found out so much over these last few months and recently,,,,I felt I needed to do this
I'm not the kind of person who would EVER EVER EVER do something like this BUT I was lied to!! (this was said over & over again)
He came into X Place of Work telling everyone that he was in the middle of a divorce
I asked around and I was told you guys were OVER - I told her this was a bunch of crap and that she CHOSE to acknowledge what she wanted to acknowledge and to ignore everything else. She was only justifying her actions AGAIN
I am a good person, ask anyone who knows me - - again, she said that over and over
I'm a CHRISTIAN
I've been in your shoes - - I told her she could NEVER have done what she did if that were true
If you had only confronted me, this never would have gone on - She said that several times until I finally told her that was enough of that because she isn't going to put ANY of HER actions on ME.
I 'wish' that you guys had worked things out - that he would have stayed with you but he kept telling me how it was over
I thought that by calling you this might bring you some healing, too - - I told her I don't need anything from her in order to 'heal'.
I needed to do this to heal myself - I'm pretty sure I told her I didn't really care anything about what she needed
You don't 'know' me
I don't want to 'open old wounds'
You can hate me if you want, you can say whatever you want, but I'm not a bad person
I'm not one of "those" women
I was vulnerable
I was lied to!!
I thought you would be more "open" with me
I am sorry,,,,,,,,,,, BUT
You have no idea the lies that I was told
One of the reasons I left him was that I'd found a letter that you'd written to him at the end,,,,and I figured out how much I'd been lied to - - I asked her, "let me guess, you also found out that you weren't the 'only one' didn't you?" She would not answer. I'm pretty sure this had to be my Plan B letter. Intersting that he kept it??
I "know" you sent me 2 letters,, it HAD to be from you because the first one in Feb 2007 said that he was still sleeping with his wife - - - now this is after saying she had NO idea that we were still together at all - - I don't know what letters she is referring to, but I have a feeling a close friend of mine may have done that without telling me but I don't know yet for sure.
"Looking back, going thru this did turn out to be a 'good thing' for me" - to which I replied, well forgive me if I don't give a [censored]
"Aren't you better off now? Aren't you???" - - I told her that was none of her business. She didn't care anything about me or my kids or my life before, the last thing I was going to do is share with her now
I want you to know that one of the reasons I had to do this is because I care for Ladybugs SO MUCH - -at this point I was ready to go through the phone and rip out her throat. If she cared so much for Ladybugs, she wouldn't have helped break up her parents. There's a lot of things she could have said (and did say) that hurt me personally, but when she wanted to bring my kids into the conversation she overstepped. It was right after this that I put an end to the call - - I didn't hang up on her but made it clear I was not going to discuss anything further with her.
She said she's wasn't surprised to learn about him & the latest Ho,,,but of course she doesn't care at all & thinks they are both messed up. It cracked me up when she said that she is not friends with Ho2,,,hasn't talked to her since she left X Place of Work but "it's not that I dislike her or anything". GEEZ, what a 2 faced bee-atch. Can't even admit to her me, her new best friend, that she doesn't like Ho2.
I laughed out loud when she told me she was a 'Christian', to which she took great offense. I told her several times, "Your actions speak for the kind of person you are".
I told her that I do not require anything from her to 'heal' and that I'd put her out of my life/thoughts a long time ago. When she said she didn't want to open old wounds, I replied, "Well it's to f'ing late now".
I mentioned at one point about not knowing what would have happened if I hadn't finally cut him off last August. The silence was deafening,,,,,,,,,,,so I continued and said, "Oh, I guess you didn't know that it was ME that cut him off? And you probably had no idea that it went on until August of last year did you? Hmmm, HURTS doesn't it?" Of course she denied that it hurt, but I didn't let her off the hook - - - I told her that I KNOW that it hurts "take it from someone who knows first hand".
She just kept going on and on. I finally asked, "Are you done yet? Have you said what you needed to say? Do you FEEL better? Because this is doing nothing for me"
I told her she will ALWAYS be one of 'those' women in my mind. She wanted me to talk to her about the 'lies' he'd told me. I told her that it is in the past and not something I was going to discuss with her. Yes I was lied to, but I've dealt with that. She made/chose her own path and she was going to have to live with it.
I did tell her that they BOTH bear responsibility in this. Drac did fact lie to BOTH of us. I've dealt with that. She chose her path and she has to deal with her own choices.
I said, "What do you expect from me? You participated in the utter destruction of my life and are responsible in the tearing apart of my family and the damage it has done to my kids. How can you possibly expect me to do any more than I have already? I've listened to you and I have been gracious. More gracious than what you deserve."
That's as much as I can recall right now. I don't know if it's really done me any good to put it into words or not. There's tons more things she said, all of which was pretty incredible to believe she was saying to me.
I'm just so PISSED. How DARE she? Talk about being blind sided. Last month I get called by her name, then I find out that he's seeing Ho2 - - and no one had the decency to give me a heads up so I wouldn't be blind sided at work, and now this?! Plus, it goes back to how DARE he in the first place? He pulls this [censored] and here I am STILL bearing the brunt of his actions and he doesn't have a clue or give a [censored]. HE should be the one having to deal with this crap, not me.
Yesterday I hadn't felt so horrible in a long, long time. I've felt sick to my stomach, I had a horrific headache, and my neck/shoulders feel like the are made of steel. I didn't sleep much, and when I did, I had nightmares.
The only reason for her call is that she wanted me to tell her she is not a bad person. She didn't and doesn't and never has cared about me or how I feel/felt. It was all about her. Not surprising,,,it took a pure selfish [censored] to do what she did and she sure hasn't changed.
So,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that's the story for what it's worth.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
link to original thread
Piojitos - 3 solutions to solve marriage problems: - 12/01/08 04:15 AM
Pio nails one
Pithy and true!
Quote
There are three solutions to problems in a marriage:
1) live with it
2) fix it
3) divorce from it
Affairs are not an option.
1) live with it
2) fix it
3) divorce from it
Affairs are not an option.
Pithy and true!
Chrisner's creative and time saving template - 12/02/08 10:48 PM
Original by Chrisner
link to original post
Maybe they could just make a template of the wayward script for newbies where you just strike through the parts that don't apply.
Hi. I am the BW BH who just recently had my D-Day last week month Thanksgiving Christmas Valentines Day Hanukkah Easter St Patrick’s Day.
For a little background we have been married for 7 14 21 years and have 1 2 3 4 5 6 wonderful children.
The marriage has been great good rocky stale lacked passion near sexless for the past couple years but I never could have believed he she could commit adultery.
One night after working late he she came home and said “I love you but I am not in love with you” “I have never been in love with you” "We never should have gotten married” “I need space” “You’re never there for me” “We have grown apart” “You’re too controlling” “We got married too young”
I got suspicious that night and checked his her cell phone. On it I found 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1,000 text messages and 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1,000 calls all to the same number. When I called the number, the OM OW answered and I recognized him her as my best friend our next door neighbor his her coworker
When I confronted him her in the morning with this he she replied, “I can’t believe you invaded my privacy” “You’re crazy, he she is just a friend!” "I can’t ever trust you again”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
link to original post
Maybe they could just make a template of the wayward script for newbies where you just strike through the parts that don't apply.
Hi. I am the BW BH who just recently had my D-Day last week month Thanksgiving Christmas Valentines Day Hanukkah Easter St Patrick’s Day.
For a little background we have been married for 7 14 21 years and have 1 2 3 4 5 6 wonderful children.
The marriage has been great good rocky stale lacked passion near sexless for the past couple years but I never could have believed he she could commit adultery.
One night after working late he she came home and said “I love you but I am not in love with you” “I have never been in love with you” "We never should have gotten married” “I need space” “You’re never there for me” “We have grown apart” “You’re too controlling” “We got married too young”
I got suspicious that night and checked his her cell phone. On it I found 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1,000 text messages and 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1,000 calls all to the same number. When I called the number, the OM OW answered and I recognized him her as my best friend our next door neighbor his her coworker
When I confronted him her in the morning with this he she replied, “I can’t believe you invaded my privacy” “You’re crazy, he she is just a friend!” "I can’t ever trust you again”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
KaylaAndy- Cafe Plan B - 12/12/08 04:50 PM
I've been cooking on this thread for a few days. 2Much2Lose, Tully, Bestfriend, and many more of you are dealing with the same issue.
A number of you have been called on the carpet by well-meaning folks here and in your family for stepping into the Plan B process. They don't understand the purpose of Plan B.
I've been reading "As A Man Thinketh" by James Allen. Google this title and you can actually download the book free from asamanthinketh.net
In particular, I love this quote for betrayed spouses:
This is the greatest gift of Plan B.
Before you removed yourself from the drama equation you were in what we call on the farm "a manure pit". Everywhere, the stench of cheating filled your nostrils - your thoughts and breath were consumed by getting the smell to stop!
Well, that doesn't lead you to think of how to better yourself, your life, and it's difficult to think of anything but the past - back when the marriage didn't stink!
Your wayward spouse accuses you of being the cause of the stinky marriage. But there's only one thing that causes this kind of stench - a wayward heart. And wayward hearts attract stenchy affair partners because they can't tell that they are the source of the stench.
But here's the big truth....
It's not the wayward spouse who is your primary problem.
....
...
..
.
Yes - you read that right. It's yourself. The lacking of any sense of self-worth... by degrees. You believe their blame that you harmed the marriage and they were on their way out well before affair person came around... Yeah right. When it's their own SBDs (silent but deadlies) sabotaging the sanctity of their vows.
If you are to become all that you were meant to be in a marriage, you must be whole, all by yourself.
Plan B is a breath of fresh air. You can think of how to better your life a lot easier when it doesn't stink so bad your eyes water. However, a partial Plan B doesn't accomplish this.
The most impressive moments in the lives of those who share their Plan B progress here – Mimi stands out when she put her dream house up for sale. Rinn stands out when she moved to the shelter. Charlotte when she hired Shiny. And most recently, Tully - yes - you - though you've been battered by your mother in law (a vicarious beating from your husband, actually) you took the Mimi approach and left the dream house.
How would you respond to people if you absolutely knew that you were worth the fidelity requirement?
How would you respond to your wayward trying to break down your Plan B?
Mimi got to that point - she absolutely knew her worth and she would no longer tolerate life with a double-minded man. Her knowledge of her own value is the reason she is such an inspiration here.
Rinn - you know what you thought of yourself before you left the marital home - you left, trusting in the words and knowledge of others, as well as that finality knowledge - you couldn't go on one more day under the threat of verbal, sexual, physical and emotional abuse.
So Plan Bs in progress and Plan B Wanna-B-B-ers, listen up!
Share on this thread who you are - ideal - without your WS defining you. And then read it every day like an affirmation. Remember who you are - sons and daughters of a heavenly father who loves you; find that perfection and let your thoughts lead you to live in the solution instead of the problem.
Bob Proctor wrote a book I've had on my shelf for years. He says:
Plan B is the way to live in the solution. Let the wayward clean up the stench!
by KaylaAndy link to original thread
A number of you have been called on the carpet by well-meaning folks here and in your family for stepping into the Plan B process. They don't understand the purpose of Plan B.
I've been reading "As A Man Thinketh" by James Allen. Google this title and you can actually download the book free from asamanthinketh.net
In particular, I love this quote for betrayed spouses:
Quote
A person cannot directly choose his circumstances, but he can choose his thoughts, and so indirectly, yet surely, shape his circumstances.
This is the greatest gift of Plan B.
Before you removed yourself from the drama equation you were in what we call on the farm "a manure pit". Everywhere, the stench of cheating filled your nostrils - your thoughts and breath were consumed by getting the smell to stop!
Well, that doesn't lead you to think of how to better yourself, your life, and it's difficult to think of anything but the past - back when the marriage didn't stink!
Your wayward spouse accuses you of being the cause of the stinky marriage. But there's only one thing that causes this kind of stench - a wayward heart. And wayward hearts attract stenchy affair partners because they can't tell that they are the source of the stench.
But here's the big truth....
It's not the wayward spouse who is your primary problem.
....
...
..
.
Yes - you read that right. It's yourself. The lacking of any sense of self-worth... by degrees. You believe their blame that you harmed the marriage and they were on their way out well before affair person came around... Yeah right. When it's their own SBDs (silent but deadlies) sabotaging the sanctity of their vows.
If you are to become all that you were meant to be in a marriage, you must be whole, all by yourself.
Plan B is a breath of fresh air. You can think of how to better your life a lot easier when it doesn't stink so bad your eyes water. However, a partial Plan B doesn't accomplish this.
The most impressive moments in the lives of those who share their Plan B progress here – Mimi stands out when she put her dream house up for sale. Rinn stands out when she moved to the shelter. Charlotte when she hired Shiny. And most recently, Tully - yes - you - though you've been battered by your mother in law (a vicarious beating from your husband, actually) you took the Mimi approach and left the dream house.
How would you respond to people if you absolutely knew that you were worth the fidelity requirement?
How would you respond to your wayward trying to break down your Plan B?
Mimi got to that point - she absolutely knew her worth and she would no longer tolerate life with a double-minded man. Her knowledge of her own value is the reason she is such an inspiration here.
Rinn - you know what you thought of yourself before you left the marital home - you left, trusting in the words and knowledge of others, as well as that finality knowledge - you couldn't go on one more day under the threat of verbal, sexual, physical and emotional abuse.
So Plan Bs in progress and Plan B Wanna-B-B-ers, listen up!
Share on this thread who you are - ideal - without your WS defining you. And then read it every day like an affirmation. Remember who you are - sons and daughters of a heavenly father who loves you; find that perfection and let your thoughts lead you to live in the solution instead of the problem.
Bob Proctor wrote a book I've had on my shelf for years. He says:
Quote
You're either living in the problem or you're living in the solution.
Plan B is the way to live in the solution. Let the wayward clean up the stench!
by KaylaAndy link to original thread
Aussieswife - DIVIDED LOYALTIES - 12/23/08 03:42 PM
link to original thread
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ***** ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Today I was cleaning the shed.. well one of them .. out to get out our Christmas lights and the old tree and stockings. I came across my little boys stocking .. my dead sons stocking. Little Peter.
And the memories came flooding back. Oh God it still hurts. And pinned in it is a little loyalty pin... the regimental pin his dad had given him so long ago it seems. Loyalty. I remember.
What do you mean, 'Pack for a trip? We're going to go somewhere?" I asked my new H. "no" he said "just me."
We'd just returned from our honeymoon when it began: the tug-of-war over my loyalties between wife and the Army.
Over the next 18 months, he'd driven the eight-hour round trip every weekend in order to learn and push himself to join the SAS. It was a demanding schedule--but one my H, the Army and his direct boss, expected. And he'd always complied.
Now that I was married, my H expected me to get with the drill, while all I wanted was to enjoy our first weekends together as a couple, setting up house, and delighting in the newness of it all. It was our first fight, and I lost.
As we neared each weekend, I'd withdraw and quietly endure his absence. Instead of opening a place for me in our new 'family', he had defaulted to his shared history with Army mates, often leaving me out of conversations in our own home.
One evening during dinner at our house, I spoke up to be part of the discussion and asked his Sgt a question. He answered--to my H! As if I wasn't there. After all I was only 'the little woman'.
The evaluation testing lasted weeks... all of that time he was on the other side of the country. After graduation he was "promoted" to a full-time position on the Regiments staff. As his commitments grew and the Army demanded more of his time, I began to see the Army as my enemy and the cause of our growing separateness. The gulf between us hardened into predictable patterns of isolation. A polite hug. A few pleasantries. And then a quick dismissal.
It wasn't done for a wife to question the Army.
Tug-of-War
We moved . Often. Until we finally ended up in our home town.. the Regiments home. A number of years into our marriage, my H pulled a doozy. He volunteered for a 'overseas operation'! While he was excited, I was having "issues" with the whole thing.
"Hi, honey," he beamed as he walked into the kitchen. JJ and Liz, my four- and three-year-olds... boy & a girl ... made a mad rush for his kneecaps. Meanwhile, I was juggling our two-month-old boy, Peter, on one hip while I stirred the bubbling pasta sauce. Believe me when I tell you that if we didn't shop on the base we couldn't afford it. Those days the money was poor for a military family.
I forced a weary smile..... been doing that a lot lately "Hi. Can you hand me the colander?"
It was two baths and a nursing later that evening before he broached the topic of his intended trip. Fire flashed in my eyes I swear "Are you crazy? You're going to leave me for F*** knows how long with three small children while you gallivant across the world? I don't think so."
But he wouldn't budge this time. HAH!! name me the time he ever did!! And I dreaded this seemingly continuous tug of war over his duty to his family and his duty to the Army. I told him 'it's too long for me to deal with the kids alone."
With a surprised, hard look on his face, he pressed me to reconsider, "If you were being a strong and supportive partner, you would recognize how this business requires personal sacrifice!" When I replied to say I was his wife not a troop leader and that I had sacrificed a lot it went down like a lead balloon.
Knowing he wouldn't back down, I decided to hold the line as the supportive wife. I loved the bloody SOB you know. Still do for that matter. While I'd finally caved, there was no tangible victory for my marriage. And the tension between us grew as I seethed inwardly toward him for making me take sides in the Marriage Vs Army tug. Well he did go do whatever they did and he got back safe & sound if not a bit quieter and remote. After 9-11 the deployments seemed to meld one into the other it was just the icing on the cake.
Ten years into our marriage, the conflict came to a head. Peter was ill and my H was deployed and 'out of contact'. Then... my beautiful wonderful little boy died. And so did our family for a while. I did go right off the rails... inconsolable... broken in so many ways. When Aussie finally was brought back it was too late to help me or Peter. Too little too late was my thought.
That night we had a no-holds-barred fight.
"You weren't there for me... for Peter" I screamed. "Just like every other time I need you."
I didn't give him a chance... I was gunning for him.
"You're never there. You're not on my side. And it makes me feel completely alone. I feel as if I'm a single mum! ! Why do you always choose the F***ing Army over me? YOU KILLED OUR SON."
He was, stunned. The weight of that attack slowly overwhelmed him with a mixture of horror and unfounded guilt. He didn't really deserve that.
We both grew quiet as we let my words hang in the air. Right then and for some months I hated him more than life itself. I started to make bad.. very bad choices. He was sent back can you believe it? Couldn't even let him grieve properly for our son... or to help me... though to be honest I wouldn't have let him. While he was gone I had the affair... I wanted him to know about it at the time.. I wanted him to hurt as I was hurt.
The final act I had planned was to end all my pain and join my little boy. I had it all planned the pills and everything. Didn't think of anyone but me.. not my other kids... not anyone. And then my daughter and my sister ... a doctor... went and spoiled the whole thing ... well its what I thought then .... I told you I was a not a full quid back then ... so I got to spend 10 days in the crazy bin. because in some ways I was.
And of course the affair and associated behaviours came spewing out into the wide open world. Oh joy.
My daughter the poor dear was so so very angry and said I was a sl*t . I guess I was. My son was angry and then sad. And then of course I was told Aussie was hurt. God it seems has a way of teaching you a lesson when you need one. I got it.
To cut a long story short the rest of it was a lot of time with MB.... reluctant confessions to Aussie...and counsellors and doctors for a while as I fought to save my family.. myself .... I didn't deserve to you know.. I think I was a sh*t wife for those pre affair years. Well for some of the last anyway.
It took time and work and more love than I thought people could ever give ... but we are together still.. all of us. We are and were blessed with a new baby.. another boy ... he was conceived the night before my H was sent back to that hellhole in Afghanistan. Yes he is Army.. always will be.. I have accepted it with pride and humility that he choose to share his life with me again ..even after all l did.
But the big difference is this .... from that point, it felt as though we were starting our marriage afresh. We began to dream together, to laugh, to be honest, and to grow together intimately and spiritually. We became friends all over again. Don't ever discount the power of friendship in a marriage between man and wife. And no NOT other men or women... just us.
We spend more time in listening than in planning and doing. Intimacy is our priority. And at the heart of it all ... an unshakable pursuit of becoming "one flesh." Neither of us will make a decision until we reach agreement. We have finally become a true team.
We still have bumps in the road. At times I catch myself drifting toward old patterns with my Aussie, but the corrections are easier. But because we're together, it's not so bad any more.
After deployments he drinks too much .... he is restless dislikes being indoors for too long ... I'd like to accidentally break his leg so he can't go back ... I would like him to have God in his life but he thinks God doesn't comes to the places he goes. And sometimes I very afraid.
I'm not sure my relationship with my H will ever be what it was before; in truth, I'm determined that it won't be. Instead, he and I will more than just better together.
In the meantime, he now knows my loyalty belongs securely to him, TOTALLY and that's like a comforting, warm blanket over us both.
Yes divided loyalties are hard to manage.. hard to work with .... people have asked me whether he can get out of going on this mission or that .......particularly because he already has been there a number of times.
But now I for one never even suggests he try to avoid going, oh don't think I don't want to or that I don't feel that way because I do. I want him home and SAFE in my arms. I will not undermine his commitment to his mates .... our nation... and yes to the both of us. Man it SUCKS big time.
"My wife has never asked me that," he said to my dad one day. "I didn't sign on to be the bloke that runs."
And he won't. Neither shall I.
So remember to look at your divided loyalties .... discuss and set the boundaries you have with your work... your friends.. even your family members. Your wife or husband and the family you created need to know you can be counted on. Did my H fail in that? yes but not totally his fault in the middle of a war .... did it give me an excuse to cheat .. NO BLOODY WAY.
Today is special .... my oldest son... Lt in the Para's arrived back from Afghanistan. My God he's grown so tall. His financee hasn't let go of him all day. I am so proud ... so RELIEVED..I looked across the room at my daughter with her new husband.... another trooper in her dads Regiment ... we smiled at each other as I hung up Peters sock on the tree .. the first time since his death ... Divided loyalties ... she knows the pitfalls and she will need to make her own choices ... hopefully learning from my mistakes.
Then Mikey came running in on those little stubby legs of his yelling "Mummy mummy looks what He gives me" pointing at his big brother ... he was wearing the Paras maroon beret ...the little soldier .... GROAN .. not another one ......... I'm getting too old for this.
All I can say is know your own Divided loyalties ... and know your priorities
TogetherAlone - The Turning Point - 12/31/08 12:11 AM
The following was written by TogetherAlone.
It's an accurate account of how most marriage recovery starts.... just beautifully stated!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I think an awful lot of things about recovering from infidelity are almost impossibly hard to do. It takes a huge amount of personal growth on the part of both spouses, but if both of you can manage it, the recovered marriage is not the real reward - the true prize is the strength, stamina and maturity you've had to acquire to get there.
If there are young children involved, then making the supreme effort to build up the muscle and climb the mountain is well worth the trying.
The trouble is that, in most cases, only one of you is motivated to start the climb IN THE BEGINNING. The BS has to set out on his/her own, in the hope that the WS will wake up and start putting in the effort at some point. You're working on yourself while the WS is sulking, whining, feeling sorry for themselves and acting like a martyr. That's a really tough time.
You know, I think that's the turning point in most marriages here that get through - when the BS sets out on the journey on their own. Setting boundaries, refusing to be gaslighted, being clear about what they want, taking their own audit of personal weaknesses and dependencies, becoming a strong, clear-thinking person. When the WS 'gets' that this is happening, they either start shaping up, or they run away.
Either way, the BS emerges a bigger human being.
Not one of us would have asked to be hit by infidelity, any more than we want cancer or the death of a child. But the big crises that hit us are the best opportunities we have to grow in character and integrity."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It's an accurate account of how most marriage recovery starts.... just beautifully stated!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I think an awful lot of things about recovering from infidelity are almost impossibly hard to do. It takes a huge amount of personal growth on the part of both spouses, but if both of you can manage it, the recovered marriage is not the real reward - the true prize is the strength, stamina and maturity you've had to acquire to get there.
If there are young children involved, then making the supreme effort to build up the muscle and climb the mountain is well worth the trying.
The trouble is that, in most cases, only one of you is motivated to start the climb IN THE BEGINNING. The BS has to set out on his/her own, in the hope that the WS will wake up and start putting in the effort at some point. You're working on yourself while the WS is sulking, whining, feeling sorry for themselves and acting like a martyr. That's a really tough time.
You know, I think that's the turning point in most marriages here that get through - when the BS sets out on the journey on their own. Setting boundaries, refusing to be gaslighted, being clear about what they want, taking their own audit of personal weaknesses and dependencies, becoming a strong, clear-thinking person. When the WS 'gets' that this is happening, they either start shaping up, or they run away.
Either way, the BS emerges a bigger human being.
Not one of us would have asked to be hit by infidelity, any more than we want cancer or the death of a child. But the big crises that hit us are the best opportunities we have to grow in character and integrity."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SMB - "Why People cheat" - 01/08/09 11:10 PM
SMB explains WHY PEOPLE CHEAT
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The reason is very simple and is the same no matter who the WS is.
You did not have boundaries in place to protect your marriage from intruders. Or you moved your boundaries because the attention you were getting from OM felt good and you didn't want it to stop.
It really is THAT simple.
Boundaries are what keep us where we belong. Once they are removed, we tread in dangerous waters, often drown, and drown those who love us.
There isn't some deep, dark childhood issue or personality disorder that caused you to have an affair.
Affairs happen because one spouse becomes selfish and self-centered enough to want what feels good at the moment MORE THAN they want to protect their spouse from pain.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
link to original thread
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The reason is very simple and is the same no matter who the WS is.
You did not have boundaries in place to protect your marriage from intruders. Or you moved your boundaries because the attention you were getting from OM felt good and you didn't want it to stop.
It really is THAT simple.
Boundaries are what keep us where we belong. Once they are removed, we tread in dangerous waters, often drown, and drown those who love us.
There isn't some deep, dark childhood issue or personality disorder that caused you to have an affair.
Affairs happen because one spouse becomes selfish and self-centered enough to want what feels good at the moment MORE THAN they want to protect their spouse from pain.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
link to original thread
"Please don't judge me" - 01/11/09 05:46 PM
I think that the ONLY time someone writes
"don't judge me"
is when they KNOW their actions will be judged because they KNOW they have acted badly!
A person never says:
"I educate my child .... please don't judge me."
"I've been faithful to my vows ... please don't judge me."
"I got an A on my book report ... please don't judge me."
"I exercised and watched my diet and lost 35 pounds ... please don't judge me."
They might say:
"I don't make my child attend school ... please don't judge me."
"I've cheated on my spouse ... please don't judge me."
"I failed my book report ... please don't judge me."
"I ate 12 donuts and sat around on my butt all day and now I am fat ... please don't judge me."
It is a
that your conscience bothers you when you say:
"Please don't judge me"
You know your actions deserve scrutiny - but you reject that very same scrutiny.
"don't judge me"
is when they KNOW their actions will be judged because they KNOW they have acted badly!
A person never says:
"I educate my child .... please don't judge me."
"I've been faithful to my vows ... please don't judge me."
"I got an A on my book report ... please don't judge me."
"I exercised and watched my diet and lost 35 pounds ... please don't judge me."
They might say:
"I don't make my child attend school ... please don't judge me."
"I've cheated on my spouse ... please don't judge me."
"I failed my book report ... please don't judge me."
"I ate 12 donuts and sat around on my butt all day and now I am fat ... please don't judge me."
It is a
that your conscience bothers you when you say:"Please don't judge me"
You know your actions deserve scrutiny - but you reject that very same scrutiny.
carolkh's story - her 180 plan - 01/28/09 03:40 PM
We're "just friends". - 01/29/09 06:44 PM
This one-liner gem is courtesy of JoJO422
If you're really friends with someone and nothing more, then you shouldn't have to put JUST in front of that.
Jamesus is recovered and has wisdom to share! - 03/06/09 06:42 PM
link to original thread
Quote
Well, it's official.. everything signed, the judge is happy, the attorneys are happy.. everyone else is pretty much coping.. pretty standard outcome I suppose.
I should be elated, but honestly when I received the letter in the mail I knew immediately what it was, sat down and read it and my general feeling was 'Eh.. well that's that.'.. and proceeded about my evening. Didn't even have a celebratory drink or anything.
Might be because I know it's not fully over.. there's still the matter of a couple grand that's been overpayed on things due to her and the attorneys holding things up since December.. which is probably going to result in me filing a few things in the near future.. all concerned have been given 60 days by me to make it right.. we'll see.
But it is the final nail in the coffin of what was once my marriage and my family as I knew it.. so with that, strangely comes some closure where there really wasn't any before.
So I've spent a fair bit (but not an unhealthy amount) of time since December basically trying to sort out my feelings on all that has transpired.. it's been a little eye opening.
DDay for me really happened the day after we had a talk, and I couldn't get any really straight answers from my exW.. her strange behavior the previous couple of weeks had already aroused an uneasy feeling, but the conversation really is what put it over the top. Just a quick glance at her cellphone told me what I didn't want to believe... from that point, my entire life started to change.
We, here on MB talk a lot about addiction in reference to our waywards and it helps many here use that analogy to at least gain some feeling of having insight into their behavior, but what isn't often discussed here is the BS's addiction.. most often to their spouse.. which under normal circumstances is an honestly good thing, but like with many other things concerning infidelity.. it tends to turn everything on it's head.
There's really two distinct phases here, and that is the first where the conflict and betrayal, hurt, anger.. everything serves only to strengthen the desire of the betrayed for the infidel.. It really makes no sense when you look back on it, but this is why many BS's become instant doormats.. clinging, crying, desperate creatures.. which often only serves to solidify the waywards thinking and creates many a self fulfilling prophesy... The 'doom and gloom' of a world picture coming crashing down in tatters just seems to amplify everything and the BS gets the 'feeling' that life is spinning out of control. So the betrayed obsesses.. reading into even the slightest little thing.. coming here and posting, what does this mean, what does that mean? Endless speculation ensues.. assumption based on assumption, based on a shred of something that -could- mean something else.. but it does serve to occupy the mind which is racing to find meaning in anything.. something solid to stand on..
Now anyone who has followed this thread from the beginning knows, I stayed in this first stage for a really long time.. and probably an unhealthy amount of time, and my appeasement and despair/desperation in the beginning is the one thing about this whole ordeal I truly regret having not handled better. Eventually though, life starts to settle down.. one day you find yourself remarkably not thinking about her for an hour. Sure it comes back to drag you down, but then you have a good day.. maybe a couple in a row, and it starts to get better. Folks hate to hear that things just take time.. but eventually you get to a point where you don't crave the interaction with the wayward.. you're finally beyond the horrible withdrawl phase and can truly look forward to the next day and realize that YOU are the one holding the reigns in your own life.. each day truly is what you make it. You don't -need- someone who hurts you in your life. All you -need- to do is the dishes and the laundry and make it to work on time so you can come home, pick up the kids, and do it all agian tomorrow.
Now obviously I didn't recover my marriage, and TBH I didn't really follow Harley's plans for marriage recovery.. but I did pay enough attention to my personal recovery along the way to have gleaned a lot of what I hope to use in a future relationship.
I've finally gotten to a point where I don't have any anxiety in dealing with the exW, because all of our dealings now are very infrequent, and are only about DS. There's a part of me that still cares enough to not want to see her hurt, that still sighs and shakes his head and can be dissapointed with the choices she's making for her life.. but I no longer feel the need to reach out to her. I'm content with letting her fall or float on her own, and in all honesty.. I hope she really is happy, mostly for DS's sake.. I lived with an unhappy parent growing up, and it really is no fun.
I think a lot of the ability to stop reaching out came when I finally forgave her. I don't think forgiveness entails forgetting about the wrongs someone has done to you, and being cautious or guarded with them in the future.. I think, as I've said many times before that forgiveness is simply giving up my right to hurt her, for hurting me.. and honestly, once you lay that burden down, is when the true process of healing begins... or at least it did for me.
I don't spend my days angry anymore. I'm honestly very happy and content with my life, and who I am these days. I understand where my flaws are, and some of them I actually kind of like... others I'm still working on.. and that will be an ongoing process.
It takes time, but you become stronger.. the wound isn't open anymore, but the scar is there.. the tissue is tougher now, and at times can be a little unsightly.. but we can wear scars as prizes, badges of accomplishment.. scars are healed and stronger.. the wound is in the past and the tissue beneath is healthy again.
And so am I.. Jim is cool.
I should be elated, but honestly when I received the letter in the mail I knew immediately what it was, sat down and read it and my general feeling was 'Eh.. well that's that.'.. and proceeded about my evening. Didn't even have a celebratory drink or anything.
Might be because I know it's not fully over.. there's still the matter of a couple grand that's been overpayed on things due to her and the attorneys holding things up since December.. which is probably going to result in me filing a few things in the near future.. all concerned have been given 60 days by me to make it right.. we'll see.
But it is the final nail in the coffin of what was once my marriage and my family as I knew it.. so with that, strangely comes some closure where there really wasn't any before.
So I've spent a fair bit (but not an unhealthy amount) of time since December basically trying to sort out my feelings on all that has transpired.. it's been a little eye opening.
DDay for me really happened the day after we had a talk, and I couldn't get any really straight answers from my exW.. her strange behavior the previous couple of weeks had already aroused an uneasy feeling, but the conversation really is what put it over the top. Just a quick glance at her cellphone told me what I didn't want to believe... from that point, my entire life started to change.
We, here on MB talk a lot about addiction in reference to our waywards and it helps many here use that analogy to at least gain some feeling of having insight into their behavior, but what isn't often discussed here is the BS's addiction.. most often to their spouse.. which under normal circumstances is an honestly good thing, but like with many other things concerning infidelity.. it tends to turn everything on it's head.
There's really two distinct phases here, and that is the first where the conflict and betrayal, hurt, anger.. everything serves only to strengthen the desire of the betrayed for the infidel.. It really makes no sense when you look back on it, but this is why many BS's become instant doormats.. clinging, crying, desperate creatures.. which often only serves to solidify the waywards thinking and creates many a self fulfilling prophesy... The 'doom and gloom' of a world picture coming crashing down in tatters just seems to amplify everything and the BS gets the 'feeling' that life is spinning out of control. So the betrayed obsesses.. reading into even the slightest little thing.. coming here and posting, what does this mean, what does that mean? Endless speculation ensues.. assumption based on assumption, based on a shred of something that -could- mean something else.. but it does serve to occupy the mind which is racing to find meaning in anything.. something solid to stand on..
Now anyone who has followed this thread from the beginning knows, I stayed in this first stage for a really long time.. and probably an unhealthy amount of time, and my appeasement and despair/desperation in the beginning is the one thing about this whole ordeal I truly regret having not handled better. Eventually though, life starts to settle down.. one day you find yourself remarkably not thinking about her for an hour. Sure it comes back to drag you down, but then you have a good day.. maybe a couple in a row, and it starts to get better. Folks hate to hear that things just take time.. but eventually you get to a point where you don't crave the interaction with the wayward.. you're finally beyond the horrible withdrawl phase and can truly look forward to the next day and realize that YOU are the one holding the reigns in your own life.. each day truly is what you make it. You don't -need- someone who hurts you in your life. All you -need- to do is the dishes and the laundry and make it to work on time so you can come home, pick up the kids, and do it all agian tomorrow.
Now obviously I didn't recover my marriage, and TBH I didn't really follow Harley's plans for marriage recovery.. but I did pay enough attention to my personal recovery along the way to have gleaned a lot of what I hope to use in a future relationship.
I've finally gotten to a point where I don't have any anxiety in dealing with the exW, because all of our dealings now are very infrequent, and are only about DS. There's a part of me that still cares enough to not want to see her hurt, that still sighs and shakes his head and can be dissapointed with the choices she's making for her life.. but I no longer feel the need to reach out to her. I'm content with letting her fall or float on her own, and in all honesty.. I hope she really is happy, mostly for DS's sake.. I lived with an unhappy parent growing up, and it really is no fun.
I think a lot of the ability to stop reaching out came when I finally forgave her. I don't think forgiveness entails forgetting about the wrongs someone has done to you, and being cautious or guarded with them in the future.. I think, as I've said many times before that forgiveness is simply giving up my right to hurt her, for hurting me.. and honestly, once you lay that burden down, is when the true process of healing begins... or at least it did for me.
I don't spend my days angry anymore. I'm honestly very happy and content with my life, and who I am these days. I understand where my flaws are, and some of them I actually kind of like... others I'm still working on.. and that will be an ongoing process.
It takes time, but you become stronger.. the wound isn't open anymore, but the scar is there.. the tissue is tougher now, and at times can be a little unsightly.. but we can wear scars as prizes, badges of accomplishment.. scars are healed and stronger.. the wound is in the past and the tissue beneath is healthy again.
And so am I.. Jim is cool.
Mark's post - Stay out of G_d's way - for Queenie - 03/07/09 05:25 PM
Quote
Two things you should be very careful praying for:
1) That God would allow our faith to be tested.
2) That God would teach us patience.
He’s only too happy to bring about both…
And yet, it is by having our faith tested that our faith grows and by God making us wait for what He has for us that we become patient.
The most dangerous time in our lives is right after we have had a victory. We lose our focus on what God has done for us and refocus on what we have accomplished. It’s what happened after the victory at Jericho. One man tried to call what God said was His “spoils of war” and claimed a right to them. For that he paid with his life.
But all of Israel sinned when they went against Ai, and 3 dozen paid with their lives for that sin. Instead of focusing on what God had done, they began to believe that THEY had won the battle. “We don’t need everyone” they said. “WE can win this battle with but a few men” & “Look what WE did to Jericho.”
And once they had been defeated, they all lamented their own suffering. “Woe is me...” They began to blame God for the loss. “Why did you ever bring this people across the Jordan to deliver us into the hands of the Amorites to destroy us? If only we had been content to stay on the other side of the Jordan!” They begged God to remove the consequences of their sin. They did what repentant sinners do, (threw themselves down before God, sprinkled dust on their heads, cried out to God) but had not owned the sin they had committed. They blamed it on God. They tried to take credit for the victory at Jericho and yet did not accept the consequences for their own sin.
And this is how you will know for certain when your WH is really ready to return and is truly repentant, Queenie. He will say “I have sinned.” He will not blame or even try to blame you, or God, or Crack-Ho, or his job, or his life, or booze, or drugs…He will OWN the choices he has made and show sorrow for them. He will be sorry and not “sorry, but…”
He might never be at that place since most never reach it. But remember that it was God that brought you this far and it was God that has taken care of you so far and it was God that has given YOU the victories you have enjoyed. Let Him finish what He started. Don’t make the mistake of trying to take ownership of what He has done in your life. You didn’t do it without Him and in fact it was really Him who did it all.
Let Him complete His work and stay out of His way...
Stand back, watch and be amazed.
Mark
1) That God would allow our faith to be tested.
2) That God would teach us patience.
He’s only too happy to bring about both…
And yet, it is by having our faith tested that our faith grows and by God making us wait for what He has for us that we become patient.
The most dangerous time in our lives is right after we have had a victory. We lose our focus on what God has done for us and refocus on what we have accomplished. It’s what happened after the victory at Jericho. One man tried to call what God said was His “spoils of war” and claimed a right to them. For that he paid with his life.
But all of Israel sinned when they went against Ai, and 3 dozen paid with their lives for that sin. Instead of focusing on what God had done, they began to believe that THEY had won the battle. “We don’t need everyone” they said. “WE can win this battle with but a few men” & “Look what WE did to Jericho.”
And once they had been defeated, they all lamented their own suffering. “Woe is me...” They began to blame God for the loss. “Why did you ever bring this people across the Jordan to deliver us into the hands of the Amorites to destroy us? If only we had been content to stay on the other side of the Jordan!” They begged God to remove the consequences of their sin. They did what repentant sinners do, (threw themselves down before God, sprinkled dust on their heads, cried out to God) but had not owned the sin they had committed. They blamed it on God. They tried to take credit for the victory at Jericho and yet did not accept the consequences for their own sin.
And this is how you will know for certain when your WH is really ready to return and is truly repentant, Queenie. He will say “I have sinned.” He will not blame or even try to blame you, or God, or Crack-Ho, or his job, or his life, or booze, or drugs…He will OWN the choices he has made and show sorrow for them. He will be sorry and not “sorry, but…”
He might never be at that place since most never reach it. But remember that it was God that brought you this far and it was God that has taken care of you so far and it was God that has given YOU the victories you have enjoyed. Let Him finish what He started. Don’t make the mistake of trying to take ownership of what He has done in your life. You didn’t do it without Him and in fact it was really Him who did it all.
Let Him complete His work and stay out of His way...
Stand back, watch and be amazed.
Mark
Re: Jamesus is recovered and has wisdom to share! - 03/07/09 06:15 PM
Quote
I think a lot of the ability to stop reaching out came when I finally forgave her. I don't think forgiveness entails forgetting about the wrongs someone has done to you, and being cautious or guarded with them in the future.. I think, as I've said many times before that forgiveness is simply giving up my right to hurt her, for hurting me.. and honestly, once you lay that burden down, is when the true process of healing begins... or at least it did for me.
wow
Re: by TA: How the wayward get that way - 03/24/09 01:01 PM
This is spot-on! From all that my FWH has told me over the last 3.5 months, I see parallels between your analysis and his situation. Thank you so much for taking the time two years ago to post this. It helps me understand to some degree how a man who says he always loved me could have been so deeply involved with OW for three years. I am sending this link to my FWH, as I think it will be a help to him as he tries to sort out how he became a WH.
Re: by TA: How the wayward get that way - 03/24/09 08:35 PM
reading all of these posts has been great.
So much insight, I have never spent so much time copying and saving some of my favorites to review later.
A great deal of wisdom here.
So much insight, I have never spent so much time copying and saving some of my favorites to review later.
A great deal of wisdom here.
Re: by TA: How the wayward get that way - 03/28/09 11:19 PM
bump
Re: by TA: How the wayward get that way - 03/30/09 11:42 AM
Bump
Kayla Andy : Her comment about commitment - 04/12/09 03:20 PM
If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
............... from her sig line !
Awesome
............... from her sig line !
Awesome
GloveOil's great advice to a WW - 11/05/09 04:29 PM
Written by GloveOil:
Link to original thread
Quote
tsmith,
Sorry for you & your husband that you're in this situation.
Answers to TheRoad's Q's wil give us a better sense of where you stand.
There may be a good chance you can save your marriage, but it isn't going to be all-better & forgotten quickly or without lots of tought emotional digging by both of you.
Some things that helped me with my OWN self-inflicted marital train-wreck:
--Complete honesty on your part is essential. "Trickle-truth" will set you back. Trying to "protect" his feelings by hiding secrets from him will set you back & make your marital recovery that much harder. Tell him what he asks.
--Resist the urge to try to explain your actions. While there are explanations, please keep in mind that explanations are NOT the same as excuses (and there ARE no excuses for what folks like you & I did when we cheated). Unfortunately for you, a betrayed spouse is most likely not in any position to be a able to distinguish between explanations & attempted excuses. Don't let yourself come off sounding in his ears like you're trying to minimze what happened.
--Let him be angry & vent. (Remember, you -- the one person who swore to protect him -- have just taken his heart & dashed it to the ground. He's got a right to be upset.)
--No contact with the other man is essential. Any contact will set you back. This is non-negotiable. Non-negotiable.
--If you don't want to lose your husband, tell him so, unequivocally. This is the time to check any pride at the door. You want to be trusted again by him someday, so you're going to have to be willing to commit an act of trust, by placing your heart entirely in his hands, to see if he rejects it or (with time) accepts it.
--Patience on your part is essential. You probably want to forget this ever happened. But you won't; neither will your husband. You can make your relationship with him beter than it was before your affair, and you can get it back to a place where it won't seem like work; but it will take lots of work & patience to get to that place. Think in terms of months & maybe years, not days/weeks.
Are you up for it?
Sorry for you & your husband that you're in this situation.
Answers to TheRoad's Q's wil give us a better sense of where you stand.
There may be a good chance you can save your marriage, but it isn't going to be all-better & forgotten quickly or without lots of tought emotional digging by both of you.
Some things that helped me with my OWN self-inflicted marital train-wreck:
--Complete honesty on your part is essential. "Trickle-truth" will set you back. Trying to "protect" his feelings by hiding secrets from him will set you back & make your marital recovery that much harder. Tell him what he asks.
--Resist the urge to try to explain your actions. While there are explanations, please keep in mind that explanations are NOT the same as excuses (and there ARE no excuses for what folks like you & I did when we cheated). Unfortunately for you, a betrayed spouse is most likely not in any position to be a able to distinguish between explanations & attempted excuses. Don't let yourself come off sounding in his ears like you're trying to minimze what happened.
--Let him be angry & vent. (Remember, you -- the one person who swore to protect him -- have just taken his heart & dashed it to the ground. He's got a right to be upset.)
--No contact with the other man is essential. Any contact will set you back. This is non-negotiable. Non-negotiable.
--If you don't want to lose your husband, tell him so, unequivocally. This is the time to check any pride at the door. You want to be trusted again by him someday, so you're going to have to be willing to commit an act of trust, by placing your heart entirely in his hands, to see if he rejects it or (with time) accepts it.
--Patience on your part is essential. You probably want to forget this ever happened. But you won't; neither will your husband. You can make your relationship with him beter than it was before your affair, and you can get it back to a place where it won't seem like work; but it will take lots of work & patience to get to that place. Think in terms of months & maybe years, not days/weeks.
Are you up for it?
Link to original thread
Barnboy - "define what an affair is" - 11/06/09 04:30 PM
This is an excellent exchange written by BARNBOY
Barnboy: "Steven Harley had some words about spending time trying to define what an affair is:"
Barnboy:"Independent behavior + dishonesty about it with a member of the opposite sex is, to me, infidelity. I don't really consider it "adultery" unless it involves sex, but a partner doing things with a member of the opposite sex and lying about it qualifies as infidelity and an affair in my book."
Original poster:"I very recently found out about an EA my spouse was having..."
Barnboy: "Correction: Unless you have evidence that it is over, and extraordinary precautions in place to prevent its recurrence, your husband is involved in an ACTIVE and CURRENT affair, and it should be treated that way."
Original poster:"What is bothering me now is that he refuses to admit anything...........and he knows I have proof. Instead, he has chosen to try and figure out just how much I DO know versus coming clean and getting over it."
Barnboy: "This is the behavior of an active wayward spouse, straight out of the playbook. Their goal is to try to misdirect you in several ways with each piece of evidence:
1. "Gaslight" you, make it your fault, make you question your judgment.
2. Claim these are the actions of people who are "just friends", no matter how inappropriate.
3. Establish how you learned of their actions in order to remove those methods of communication and drive their relationship deeper underground to avoid detection. DO NOT inform him of how you learned each piece of evidence. That will only be used to make sure that snooping method won't work again!
No member of the opposite sex should be allowed to fill a spouse's need for intimate conversation, affection, sexual fulfillment, or recreational companionship. That is how affairs start.
Advice:
1. Buy a copy of Dr. Harley's "Surviving An Affair". Right now. Drop what you're doing, order it, call around to bookstores, whatever, get a copy in your hands.
2. Once you've read the book, implement Plan A immediately.
3. Plan to expose this affair in a very directed fashion. For instance, I collected names, telephone numbers, and email addresses of every friend and relative of my wife's who I knew was a friend of our marriage. Then in a two-day span, I called them all. My script started the same way each time: "Dear friend, I called you for some advice. My wife is having an affair with (other person). I recently discovered it's been going on for the past (length of time). It has not yet become sexual as far as I know, but I don't know what to do about it. You know her so well, I could really use your advice."
Expect to receive a mystifying array of responses, but don't plan to act on them; plan to act on Dr. Harley's Plan A from Surviving An Affair.
4. Learn to share the truth of the hurt of the affair with your husband without disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts, or selfish demands.
Your goal here in Plan A is to show your husband what a loving, warm, supportive, and wonderful spouse you can be, and exactly how much he stands to lose if he continues to pursue this affair. If after some time period you set during which you can continue to meet his needs expecting nothing in return he does not abandon his affair partner, you'll move to Plan B.
And we'll cover that in another discussion. Learn the plan to work through Surviving An Affair right now."
Link to original post
Barnboy: "Steven Harley had some words about spending time trying to define what an affair is:"
Quote
Discussions (or arguments) about what to include or exclude from the definition of marital infidelity is an effective way to get lost down a path where "Left Brainers" typically dwell and where "Right Brainers" typically get offended. The bottom line to the question is, "Specifically, what was it about the inappropriate relationship' that caused the damage in the marriage?" Was it the sex ([insert definition here]), the emotional bond, the amount of time spent together, the physical attraction? What was it? Talk about it. Get a clear understanding. If you don't understand how or why it happened and why it hurt the spouse, the probability of it happening again is very high.
Asking others to define the term for you is not the answer. If you boil it all down, you are left with the fact that you both need to work together in developing a plan to prevent this "beast" from ever attacking your marriage again. If you don't know what it looks like, if you don't know where it hides, if you don't know what its touch feels like, then how will you ever protect your marriage from its venom again?
Asking others to define the term for you is not the answer. If you boil it all down, you are left with the fact that you both need to work together in developing a plan to prevent this "beast" from ever attacking your marriage again. If you don't know what it looks like, if you don't know where it hides, if you don't know what its touch feels like, then how will you ever protect your marriage from its venom again?
Barnboy:"Independent behavior + dishonesty about it with a member of the opposite sex is, to me, infidelity. I don't really consider it "adultery" unless it involves sex, but a partner doing things with a member of the opposite sex and lying about it qualifies as infidelity and an affair in my book."
Original poster:"I very recently found out about an EA my spouse was having..."
Barnboy: "Correction: Unless you have evidence that it is over, and extraordinary precautions in place to prevent its recurrence, your husband is involved in an ACTIVE and CURRENT affair, and it should be treated that way."
Original poster:"What is bothering me now is that he refuses to admit anything...........and he knows I have proof. Instead, he has chosen to try and figure out just how much I DO know versus coming clean and getting over it."
Barnboy: "This is the behavior of an active wayward spouse, straight out of the playbook. Their goal is to try to misdirect you in several ways with each piece of evidence:
1. "Gaslight" you, make it your fault, make you question your judgment.
2. Claim these are the actions of people who are "just friends", no matter how inappropriate.
3. Establish how you learned of their actions in order to remove those methods of communication and drive their relationship deeper underground to avoid detection. DO NOT inform him of how you learned each piece of evidence. That will only be used to make sure that snooping method won't work again!
No member of the opposite sex should be allowed to fill a spouse's need for intimate conversation, affection, sexual fulfillment, or recreational companionship. That is how affairs start.
Advice:
1. Buy a copy of Dr. Harley's "Surviving An Affair". Right now. Drop what you're doing, order it, call around to bookstores, whatever, get a copy in your hands.
2. Once you've read the book, implement Plan A immediately.
3. Plan to expose this affair in a very directed fashion. For instance, I collected names, telephone numbers, and email addresses of every friend and relative of my wife's who I knew was a friend of our marriage. Then in a two-day span, I called them all. My script started the same way each time: "Dear friend, I called you for some advice. My wife is having an affair with (other person). I recently discovered it's been going on for the past (length of time). It has not yet become sexual as far as I know, but I don't know what to do about it. You know her so well, I could really use your advice."
Expect to receive a mystifying array of responses, but don't plan to act on them; plan to act on Dr. Harley's Plan A from Surviving An Affair.
4. Learn to share the truth of the hurt of the affair with your husband without disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts, or selfish demands.
Your goal here in Plan A is to show your husband what a loving, warm, supportive, and wonderful spouse you can be, and exactly how much he stands to lose if he continues to pursue this affair. If after some time period you set during which you can continue to meet his needs expecting nothing in return he does not abandon his affair partner, you'll move to Plan B.
And we'll cover that in another discussion. Learn the plan to work through Surviving An Affair right now."
Link to original post
Re: Barnboy - "define what an affair is" - 11/06/09 06:31 PM
Yeah, I may of thought what constitutes an "affair" differently before I was hit by it in my own life....
But NOW, I feel if you are doing something with the opposite sex (in person, on the internet, in writing or on the phone), that you would not be doing if your spouse was right there with you then it is an Affair.....
But NOW, I feel if you are doing something with the opposite sex (in person, on the internet, in writing or on the phone), that you would not be doing if your spouse was right there with you then it is an Affair.....
Dr. Harley : Telling kids about the affair ... - 11/10/09 04:24 PM
The following was posted by Dr Harley himself.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zelmo (and others):
My position on many aspects of marital therapy has been admittedly controversial when first expressed. His Needs, Her Needs was ripped by many therapists in 1986 when it was first published because they didn't believe that men and women's emotional needs were different. Today, there are very few that believe that anymore.
My position on conflict management (Policy of Joint Agreement) was also roundly criticized by some feminists as giving away women's right to independence. Of course, most of these critics were not in favor of marriage in the first place. But today, the idea of finding mutually adventageous solutions to problems in marriage is main-stream.
And, my position on radical honesty and transparency in marriage, which was definitely not in the tool box of most counselors when I first brought it up, is now becoming much more accepted by therapists working in the trenches.
At first, whenever I came up with a new idea, I'd try it out on the couples I counseled. My goal was always to "do no harm" in my effort to help. I was very concerned about unintended consequences. But as I created methods that were logical outcomes of my basic theory, I found that these methods worked amazingly well every time they were implemented. That's why I can speak with such confidence today. I've personally witnessed thousands of successful outcomes when couples learn to meet each other's emotional needs, learn to make decisions with mutual enthusiastic agreement, and learn to be radically honest with each other.
The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.
An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.
Best wishes,
Dr. Harley
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LINK to original thread/post
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zelmo (and others):
My position on many aspects of marital therapy has been admittedly controversial when first expressed. His Needs, Her Needs was ripped by many therapists in 1986 when it was first published because they didn't believe that men and women's emotional needs were different. Today, there are very few that believe that anymore.
My position on conflict management (Policy of Joint Agreement) was also roundly criticized by some feminists as giving away women's right to independence. Of course, most of these critics were not in favor of marriage in the first place. But today, the idea of finding mutually adventageous solutions to problems in marriage is main-stream.
And, my position on radical honesty and transparency in marriage, which was definitely not in the tool box of most counselors when I first brought it up, is now becoming much more accepted by therapists working in the trenches.
At first, whenever I came up with a new idea, I'd try it out on the couples I counseled. My goal was always to "do no harm" in my effort to help. I was very concerned about unintended consequences. But as I created methods that were logical outcomes of my basic theory, I found that these methods worked amazingly well every time they were implemented. That's why I can speak with such confidence today. I've personally witnessed thousands of successful outcomes when couples learn to meet each other's emotional needs, learn to make decisions with mutual enthusiastic agreement, and learn to be radically honest with each other.
The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.
An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.
Best wishes,
Dr. Harley
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LINK to original thread/post
Re: Dr. Harley : Telling kids about the affair ... - 11/10/09 04:28 PM
Quote
Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.
Thanks Dr Harley
I am quoting/highlighting the underlying principle that supports your recommendations.
Pep
OW never had my husband - by SMB - 12/31/09 05:48 PM
Quote
The affairing down thread motivated me to post this. It is something I've been thinking about a lot recently.
OW never had my H.
She saw him from afar�
Successful business man,
Loving, involved father,
Committed, caring husband�
And she wanted him.
She thought she could just take what belonged to me�love and commitment�and have it for herself.
But the moment she entered his life, that man disappeared.
She had a man who didn�t remotely resemble the man she had attempted to steal.
All the qualities that attracted her to him were gone because of her existence in his life.
And when OW was stripped away from his life, my husband returned.
She still has no idea what it feels like to be loved by my husband.
She�s never looked into his eyes and seen his soul.
She will never have a hint of the bond we have shared for 25 years.
She had nothing, and she has even less today.
I have my husband, the man I�ve loved for 25 years. My children have their father, the man they�ve know and loved for all their lives.
She won a few battles along the darkened road,
but WE won the war�
me, my husband, and our children.
OW never had my H.
She saw him from afar�
Successful business man,
Loving, involved father,
Committed, caring husband�
And she wanted him.
She thought she could just take what belonged to me�love and commitment�and have it for herself.
But the moment she entered his life, that man disappeared.
She had a man who didn�t remotely resemble the man she had attempted to steal.
All the qualities that attracted her to him were gone because of her existence in his life.
And when OW was stripped away from his life, my husband returned.
She still has no idea what it feels like to be loved by my husband.
She�s never looked into his eyes and seen his soul.
She will never have a hint of the bond we have shared for 25 years.
She had nothing, and she has even less today.
I have my husband, the man I�ve loved for 25 years. My children have their father, the man they�ve know and loved for all their lives.
She won a few battles along the darkened road,
but WE won the war�
me, my husband, and our children.
POJA when your spouse doesn't POJA - 01/12/10 07:52 PM
The following was written by Mark1952
LINK to original post/thread (in Recovery forum)
Mark also has another long post a few posts down from this one, that goes into more detail.
Quote
How to apply POJA when once spouse refuses to negotiate fairly or even at all:
Often a mistake is made when talking about POJA as it relates to negotiations in marriage. POJA never allows for convincing our spouse to go along with what we want if they do not agree with us. It requires finding a completely different solution that he or she can agree enthusiastically with.
When we negotiate with someone with whom we have a nonromantic relationship with such as a business client or vendor etc, it seems pretty simple to come to a place where we agree in principal with each other in order to each get what we want from the other. The problem we encounter when dealing with our spouse is that we are not simply using our intelligence but also have a strong emotional investment in the negotiations. The part of our brain that handles emotions does not think or process data, it merely responds to various things to allow us to have feelings. When we rely on these feelings to make decisions logic, data, reason all go out the window.
POJA is never for the purpose of getting our way at the expense of our spouse. On the contrary, it is supposed to prevent us from gaining at his or her expense. If we want one thing and our spouse wants something else, the POJA solution does not require that we convince our spouse of the merits of our choice or that we succumb to arguments in support of his or her choice. Rather the answer lies in searching out a choice yet undiscovered that we can both agree to enthusiastically.
Refusing to take advantage of our spouse by attempting to gain at his or her expense does not require his or her active participation. It is about our own actions and refusal to act independently over his or her objections. (IB is ALWAYS a Love Buster).
POJA is not designed to give us what we desire. It is supposed to keep us from hurting our spouse by taking at his or her expense. If we are in a state of intimacy and so willing to give even at our own expense it can also keep us from hurting ourselves, but seldom does that become necessary since usually we are all too willing to let our Taker run all negotiations.
Part of the problem involved in following POJA is understanding the need to completely overcome our Taker�s influence. But another aspect that makes negotiations difficult is that we tend to define two sides of the problem and each proposes a solution, one that solves the side we propose as being the problem. What we miss is that the definition of the problem is also subjective. We see it is my way or yours when in reality there may be many possible outcomes, some of which are much more agreeable to one or both of us than others. In most cases there may be more than one solution that meets the requirements of POJA and in still others POJA is not required since our spouse will simply acquiesce to our desires.
In order to make POJA work without our spouse actively negotiating to POJA decision with us requires simply that we ourselves do not negotiate unfairly nor act from independence against his or her wishes. That is, I can protect my spouse even if she or he is not willing to protect me from his or her own selfishness. Everybody always comes up with the example of what to do if decisions absolutely must be made. There may be times when life or death lies in the balance but honestly, how often is that actually the case? Disagreement most often occurs over mainly trivial stuff and so delaying the decision until I can find a choice to which my wife agrees enthusiastically is normally not only possible but easily accomplished and often ends up being a better decision for me as well since once I can overcome my emotions to examine the real problem rather than the smoke and mirrors version I have defined in order to get my own way, I find that the best choice for me is what is also best for her. Again, this does not require that she agree to use POJA since I am the one that is avoiding the Love Buster of IB by negotiating fairly even if she is unwilling to let POJA enter the conversation.
By deciding to follow POJA for ourselves we protect our spouse from being hurt by us both unknowingly and on purpose. By following POJA we keep from depleting our spouse�s Love Bank by avoiding Independent Behavior and also avoid doing things we already know would make him or her unhappy such as long discussions with past loves, spending more than we should on that new coat or car we can�t afford and even such things as an affair since if we choose to only do what our spouse is in enthusiastic agreement with we will certainly never allow ourselves to fall in love with someone else.
Deciding to follow POJA on our own is like so much else in behavioral psychology. We choose to do the right thing and often discover that others are affected positively by our choices. Sometimes they too change their choices. Even when they don�t, we can know that we did the right thing.
This topic is one that does not lend itself very well to an analogy. I tried numerous times to come up with one that fit without causing a serious leap in logic or ignoring some piece in order to make fit. The more I simplified the more convoluted the whole thing became. What I realized is that the answer is simply that we can decide to follow POJA no matter what our spouse does, since like most of what we talk about around here, it is our own actions that we ultimately have control over. It�s when we want to get our own way no matter what our spouse wants that POJA fails and that, boys and girls, husbands and wives, ladies and gentlemen is what POJA is meant to prevent.
Mark
Often a mistake is made when talking about POJA as it relates to negotiations in marriage. POJA never allows for convincing our spouse to go along with what we want if they do not agree with us. It requires finding a completely different solution that he or she can agree enthusiastically with.
When we negotiate with someone with whom we have a nonromantic relationship with such as a business client or vendor etc, it seems pretty simple to come to a place where we agree in principal with each other in order to each get what we want from the other. The problem we encounter when dealing with our spouse is that we are not simply using our intelligence but also have a strong emotional investment in the negotiations. The part of our brain that handles emotions does not think or process data, it merely responds to various things to allow us to have feelings. When we rely on these feelings to make decisions logic, data, reason all go out the window.
POJA is never for the purpose of getting our way at the expense of our spouse. On the contrary, it is supposed to prevent us from gaining at his or her expense. If we want one thing and our spouse wants something else, the POJA solution does not require that we convince our spouse of the merits of our choice or that we succumb to arguments in support of his or her choice. Rather the answer lies in searching out a choice yet undiscovered that we can both agree to enthusiastically.
Refusing to take advantage of our spouse by attempting to gain at his or her expense does not require his or her active participation. It is about our own actions and refusal to act independently over his or her objections. (IB is ALWAYS a Love Buster).
POJA is not designed to give us what we desire. It is supposed to keep us from hurting our spouse by taking at his or her expense. If we are in a state of intimacy and so willing to give even at our own expense it can also keep us from hurting ourselves, but seldom does that become necessary since usually we are all too willing to let our Taker run all negotiations.
Part of the problem involved in following POJA is understanding the need to completely overcome our Taker�s influence. But another aspect that makes negotiations difficult is that we tend to define two sides of the problem and each proposes a solution, one that solves the side we propose as being the problem. What we miss is that the definition of the problem is also subjective. We see it is my way or yours when in reality there may be many possible outcomes, some of which are much more agreeable to one or both of us than others. In most cases there may be more than one solution that meets the requirements of POJA and in still others POJA is not required since our spouse will simply acquiesce to our desires.
In order to make POJA work without our spouse actively negotiating to POJA decision with us requires simply that we ourselves do not negotiate unfairly nor act from independence against his or her wishes. That is, I can protect my spouse even if she or he is not willing to protect me from his or her own selfishness. Everybody always comes up with the example of what to do if decisions absolutely must be made. There may be times when life or death lies in the balance but honestly, how often is that actually the case? Disagreement most often occurs over mainly trivial stuff and so delaying the decision until I can find a choice to which my wife agrees enthusiastically is normally not only possible but easily accomplished and often ends up being a better decision for me as well since once I can overcome my emotions to examine the real problem rather than the smoke and mirrors version I have defined in order to get my own way, I find that the best choice for me is what is also best for her. Again, this does not require that she agree to use POJA since I am the one that is avoiding the Love Buster of IB by negotiating fairly even if she is unwilling to let POJA enter the conversation.
By deciding to follow POJA for ourselves we protect our spouse from being hurt by us both unknowingly and on purpose. By following POJA we keep from depleting our spouse�s Love Bank by avoiding Independent Behavior and also avoid doing things we already know would make him or her unhappy such as long discussions with past loves, spending more than we should on that new coat or car we can�t afford and even such things as an affair since if we choose to only do what our spouse is in enthusiastic agreement with we will certainly never allow ourselves to fall in love with someone else.
Deciding to follow POJA on our own is like so much else in behavioral psychology. We choose to do the right thing and often discover that others are affected positively by our choices. Sometimes they too change their choices. Even when they don�t, we can know that we did the right thing.
This topic is one that does not lend itself very well to an analogy. I tried numerous times to come up with one that fit without causing a serious leap in logic or ignoring some piece in order to make fit. The more I simplified the more convoluted the whole thing became. What I realized is that the answer is simply that we can decide to follow POJA no matter what our spouse does, since like most of what we talk about around here, it is our own actions that we ultimately have control over. It�s when we want to get our own way no matter what our spouse wants that POJA fails and that, boys and girls, husbands and wives, ladies and gentlemen is what POJA is meant to prevent.
Mark
Mark also has another long post a few posts down from this one, that goes into more detail.
Re: How to restore/destroy a marriage - 01/15/10 08:04 PM
BUMP
Re: POJA when your spouse doesn't POJA - 01/15/10 09:11 PM
Where are all my posts?
Re: Betrayed spouse ... it's the FEAR ... by * fish - 01/23/10 04:38 PM
wow!!!
Just Learning's "listen to me once in your life" - 02/02/10 08:33 PM
Quote
"I want you to listen to me for once in your life. You messed up big time, you broke the vows you made to me, you made to yourself, and you made to our families, not to mention God. All that has happened is a consequence of your choices and actions. If you don't like the consequences stop the behavior. I am standing here because I believe in forgiveness and our marriage. I will not stand here much longer being blamed for decisions I had no part in and no say in."
Link to thread
A meaningful apology to BW from FWH - 02/17/10 05:47 PM
From a 2000 thread.
The BW is "Crushed" ... this is her H's letter of apology to her.
Link to original 2000 thread - by Crushed
The BW is "Crushed" ... this is her H's letter of apology to her.
Quote
I just wanted to share this and see what you all thought....here goes.
I'm sorry is so easy to write, hard to say, and incredibly painful to feel. Compared to feeling truly sorry, writing it and saying it looks & feels so inadequate.
If I had never said I was sorry, and if I do not act as though I'm sorry in everyday life and especially how I treat you, writing this letter would mean nothing. In fact, under tose conditions, a mere letter would infuriate you.
In light of all this, I am more than confident of the sorrow I feel, that it shows and I have to continue to tell you I am sorry. So hopefully this letter only reinforces what is continually being expressed. My ultimate goal is to make you know that I am sorry (although I could never fully show you), by the way I live.
I'm sorry for so many things...I'm sorry for letting you down. You beleived in m e, I'm sorry for ruining your belief. For taking things that you were sure of , that I made you sure of, and turning them upside down.
I'm sorry for killing your good friend. The guy you confided in. The man you could go and talk to about something that upset you. The one you would call on when no one else would do. The one youshared yourself with. The one you were a freind to. The one you talked to for hours and hours when you were single, the one you belived enough in to walk down that aisle. "I'm sorry" doesn;t come close to how I feel for changing "I do" to "I didn't". i'll be shedding tears in my grave that only God will see.
I know this because my sorrow has buried me six feet in a casket made of regret, in a box where light and air is no more. A prisioner of the past. And everyday I am there now, And God sees the tears. And everytime I take a peak out above the ground, I see a tombstone with your name on it. And the only thing worse than being where I am is knowing where you are and knowing that I put you there.
I am sorry that I separted you from your friend, the one who loved you, was commited and dedicated to you. The one you were commited to and dedicated to. The one you stayed faithful to.
I'm sorry the person who cared for me, the person I love, I hurt more than anyone I've ever hurt in the world. I'm sorry for every time during the day and night you think about what I've done. I'm sorry for every tear you shed because your husband cheated on you, had sexual relations with other people. I'm sorry that I decieved you, lied to you, misled you, I'm sorry I was a hypocrite, acting like I was faithful and doing the right things, the honorable things, when I wasn't.
I'm so sorry that I took a person out of your heart, who you were so proud of, so appreciative of the way you thought he handled your illness. I'm sorry I crushed all the good feelings you had. I hate the fact I crushed all the warm feelings you enjoyed, the good and conforting thoughts you had.
I"m sorry I replaced the one you trusted with someone you no longer want to trust. I'm sorry I blindsided you with awful and shocking news that the person you thought would always uphold you in the tough times, kicked you when you were down. No matter what I now say and do, you know I let you down in the worst possible way. I'm sorry that there are no words to soothe your pain, no magic wand to change the past.
I'm sorry for the humiliation I've caused you. I'm sorry that you ever have any thoughts at all that you are inadequate. I hate that. I know they are very painful thoughts for you to have. I'm sorry that your friend treated you like an eenemy.
I'm sorry for every second I pursued another women. I'm sorry for every second I flirted. I'm sorry for every second I was with them. I'm sorry for every second I touched them. I'm sorry for every second I plotted to be with them. I'm sorry for every second I allowed myself to be even around them, I'm sorry I ever met them. I'm sorry that I ever looked at them or spoke to them. I'm sorry I ever gave any hint or suggestion that I was interested in anyone or anything other than you. I'm sorry that you live with the knowledge that I did every one of these things. I'm sorry I violated the trust you had in me regarding these things.
I'm sorry I took my body and mind and put myself in a sexual sewer. I'm sorry that I had inappropriate and destructive realationships with other people who were somebody's daughter, mom, finance, wife,friend,sister,aunt,neighbor,cousin.
I'm sorry that I allowed other women to have inappropriate and destructive relationships with your husband, our kids dad, my parents son, my brothers and sisters brother, my aunt's nephew, my neices uncle, our neighbor's neighbor,( he names them by name) a hockey and baseball team's coach, a whole bunch of young people's former youth pastor and a churchful of people's former assistant pastor, your parent's son-in-law your brothers brother-in-law , with someone who was many peoples friend, christian brother and neighbor.
I'm sorry you had to see a moron, a loser, an idiot throw away his life, break all his dreams, ruin his wifes life and break all her dreams, disgrace his family, disgrace his wife, disgrace his kids.
I'm sorry I destroyed the fact we were faithful to one another, destroyed the specialness you felt making love to your husband. I hate all those things so much. I'm sorry that you have to feel pain for all these things when you know it's not fair. I'm sorry for all the injustice you've incurred.
I'm sorry that I dug a hole and put you in it and took away your light and air. I'm sorry that I at least temporiraly ruined our lives, your life. I'm sorry that I let our daughter down so bad. I'm sorry for all the ways this has affected her. I'm sorry she has a dad who is such a terrible, awful, rotten man. I'm sorry that I'm not the dad she deserves and never could be. I'm sorry she thought she had a great dad, that her mommy had a great husband. I'm sorry I can no longer tell her to marry a man like her dad. I can never say those words to her again, ever. I'm sorry that when I dance with her to Daddy's little girl, there will be rears of eternal regret falling from her father's eyes down onto her beautiful hair. I'm sorry that's just the way it is and there is nothing I can do to change it.
I'm sorry that you will never feel pride about me again. I'm sorry for the doubt you feel in everything I say or do. I'm sorry you dont feel confident or secure in a future. I'm sorry your not enjoying the simple pleasures you normally would, spending time enjoying thing you normally would.
I'm sorry you dont look forward to being with your husband. I'm sorry you dont miss him when he isn't home. I'm sorry you dont love him. I'm sorry you don't feel good about him, that your not happy being seen with him. I'm sorry you think you never knew him.
I'm sorry for every moment I was angry or cross with you when I was mad and disgusted at myself. I'm sorry fir every moment I didn't repent and turn from my wicked ways. I'm sorry I didn't repent after the first time, the second, etc.
Many days I'm sorry I was ever born, because today you would be happier, better off with someone treating you right, taking better care of you, with someone who stuck by you when you were sick, with someone who could give you the things you want, the affection you deserve.
I'm sorry for everyday of our lives that I wasn't a better man, that I didn't treat you right, didn't talk to you right, didn't uphold you, support you, lift you up, give you hope, make you know how special you are, every day I didn't somehow inspire you by my deeds to be a better person yourself. I'm sorry for every tim e I've ever hurt you. I'm sorry for not saying the right thing, thinking of you in little ways that would make you happy. I'm sorry for every moment you don't enjoy life because of the misery I've caused. I'm sorry, so sorry, for every moment you've had to feel, hurt, lonely, abandoned, crushed, defeted, lost, helpless, hopless, disgusted, discounted, forgotten, spit on, punched, kicked, laughed at, put down, beat up, broken, cheap, neglected, run over, spun around, disoriented, left out, depressed, sad, tearful, angry, bitter...etc.
I'm sorry I borke my vows to you. I'm sorry I didn't do what I promised. I'm sorry I wasn't man enough, wasn't good enough, didn't have character enough, strength enough, courage enough, belief enough, perserverence enough to do the things I said I would. I'm sorry I've failed at being a husband, a father, a man, a human being.
I'm sorry I broke God's heart. I'm sorry I hurt people He loves. I'm sorry that I became the man the prophet described to David, who hurt innocent people. I'm sorry I had to hear God say "Thou art the man".
I'm sorry I put so much sin between God and myself, between you and myself. I'm sorry I broke the two most important bonds I ever had. I'm sorry that, as a temple of the Holy Spirit, I defilied God's temple, because wherever I go whatever sin I do, God's presence is also brought to that place. I defiled His Word, His Law, I took all that was good and did evil. I'm sorry I showed contempt for the both of you. I'm sorry I brought Him shame.
I'm sorry I sinned against you and Him, I'm sorry I didn't repent immediately and completely, I'm sorry that when I finally told you, I didn't say everything, I'm sorry I withheld some things. I'm sorry I put you through the whole process.
I'm sorry when I wake up, when I work, when I play, when I eat, when I fast, when I pray, when I laugh, when I cry, when I'm alone, when I'm with you, when I talk, when I am silent. I'm sorry when I run, when I walk, rest, think, meditate, listen, understand, when I don't understand, when I hope, when I fear, when I'm in despair, when I'm uplifted, I am sorry when you do all these things, when you anthing, when you do nothing, I am sorry.
I am sorry right now. I will be sorry tommorow and eferyday and night after tommorrow, through sunshine, rain, every season, every year, every moment, every breath, I will always be sorry until God Himslef wipes away every tear. I am sorry that if I run over a mountain, or wim an ocean, I can't change what I've done and what it's done to you.
I'm sorry enough to give you my dollar , my only dollar everyday, knowing I don't have a million days. (end of letter)
The last sentence is refering to our counseler giving the analogy of him owing me a million dollars and he can only pay me one dollar a day. Wow, quite a letter huh?
I'm sorry is so easy to write, hard to say, and incredibly painful to feel. Compared to feeling truly sorry, writing it and saying it looks & feels so inadequate.
If I had never said I was sorry, and if I do not act as though I'm sorry in everyday life and especially how I treat you, writing this letter would mean nothing. In fact, under tose conditions, a mere letter would infuriate you.
In light of all this, I am more than confident of the sorrow I feel, that it shows and I have to continue to tell you I am sorry. So hopefully this letter only reinforces what is continually being expressed. My ultimate goal is to make you know that I am sorry (although I could never fully show you), by the way I live.
I'm sorry for so many things...I'm sorry for letting you down. You beleived in m e, I'm sorry for ruining your belief. For taking things that you were sure of , that I made you sure of, and turning them upside down.
I'm sorry for killing your good friend. The guy you confided in. The man you could go and talk to about something that upset you. The one you would call on when no one else would do. The one youshared yourself with. The one you were a freind to. The one you talked to for hours and hours when you were single, the one you belived enough in to walk down that aisle. "I'm sorry" doesn;t come close to how I feel for changing "I do" to "I didn't". i'll be shedding tears in my grave that only God will see.
I know this because my sorrow has buried me six feet in a casket made of regret, in a box where light and air is no more. A prisioner of the past. And everyday I am there now, And God sees the tears. And everytime I take a peak out above the ground, I see a tombstone with your name on it. And the only thing worse than being where I am is knowing where you are and knowing that I put you there.
I am sorry that I separted you from your friend, the one who loved you, was commited and dedicated to you. The one you were commited to and dedicated to. The one you stayed faithful to.
I'm sorry the person who cared for me, the person I love, I hurt more than anyone I've ever hurt in the world. I'm sorry for every time during the day and night you think about what I've done. I'm sorry for every tear you shed because your husband cheated on you, had sexual relations with other people. I'm sorry that I decieved you, lied to you, misled you, I'm sorry I was a hypocrite, acting like I was faithful and doing the right things, the honorable things, when I wasn't.
I'm so sorry that I took a person out of your heart, who you were so proud of, so appreciative of the way you thought he handled your illness. I'm sorry I crushed all the good feelings you had. I hate the fact I crushed all the warm feelings you enjoyed, the good and conforting thoughts you had.
I"m sorry I replaced the one you trusted with someone you no longer want to trust. I'm sorry I blindsided you with awful and shocking news that the person you thought would always uphold you in the tough times, kicked you when you were down. No matter what I now say and do, you know I let you down in the worst possible way. I'm sorry that there are no words to soothe your pain, no magic wand to change the past.
I'm sorry for the humiliation I've caused you. I'm sorry that you ever have any thoughts at all that you are inadequate. I hate that. I know they are very painful thoughts for you to have. I'm sorry that your friend treated you like an eenemy.
I'm sorry for every second I pursued another women. I'm sorry for every second I flirted. I'm sorry for every second I was with them. I'm sorry for every second I touched them. I'm sorry for every second I plotted to be with them. I'm sorry for every second I allowed myself to be even around them, I'm sorry I ever met them. I'm sorry that I ever looked at them or spoke to them. I'm sorry I ever gave any hint or suggestion that I was interested in anyone or anything other than you. I'm sorry that you live with the knowledge that I did every one of these things. I'm sorry I violated the trust you had in me regarding these things.
I'm sorry I took my body and mind and put myself in a sexual sewer. I'm sorry that I had inappropriate and destructive realationships with other people who were somebody's daughter, mom, finance, wife,friend,sister,aunt,neighbor,cousin.
I'm sorry that I allowed other women to have inappropriate and destructive relationships with your husband, our kids dad, my parents son, my brothers and sisters brother, my aunt's nephew, my neices uncle, our neighbor's neighbor,( he names them by name) a hockey and baseball team's coach, a whole bunch of young people's former youth pastor and a churchful of people's former assistant pastor, your parent's son-in-law your brothers brother-in-law , with someone who was many peoples friend, christian brother and neighbor.
I'm sorry you had to see a moron, a loser, an idiot throw away his life, break all his dreams, ruin his wifes life and break all her dreams, disgrace his family, disgrace his wife, disgrace his kids.
I'm sorry I destroyed the fact we were faithful to one another, destroyed the specialness you felt making love to your husband. I hate all those things so much. I'm sorry that you have to feel pain for all these things when you know it's not fair. I'm sorry for all the injustice you've incurred.
I'm sorry that I dug a hole and put you in it and took away your light and air. I'm sorry that I at least temporiraly ruined our lives, your life. I'm sorry that I let our daughter down so bad. I'm sorry for all the ways this has affected her. I'm sorry she has a dad who is such a terrible, awful, rotten man. I'm sorry that I'm not the dad she deserves and never could be. I'm sorry she thought she had a great dad, that her mommy had a great husband. I'm sorry I can no longer tell her to marry a man like her dad. I can never say those words to her again, ever. I'm sorry that when I dance with her to Daddy's little girl, there will be rears of eternal regret falling from her father's eyes down onto her beautiful hair. I'm sorry that's just the way it is and there is nothing I can do to change it.
I'm sorry that you will never feel pride about me again. I'm sorry for the doubt you feel in everything I say or do. I'm sorry you dont feel confident or secure in a future. I'm sorry your not enjoying the simple pleasures you normally would, spending time enjoying thing you normally would.
I'm sorry you dont look forward to being with your husband. I'm sorry you dont miss him when he isn't home. I'm sorry you dont love him. I'm sorry you don't feel good about him, that your not happy being seen with him. I'm sorry you think you never knew him.
I'm sorry for every moment I was angry or cross with you when I was mad and disgusted at myself. I'm sorry fir every moment I didn't repent and turn from my wicked ways. I'm sorry I didn't repent after the first time, the second, etc.
Many days I'm sorry I was ever born, because today you would be happier, better off with someone treating you right, taking better care of you, with someone who stuck by you when you were sick, with someone who could give you the things you want, the affection you deserve.
I'm sorry for everyday of our lives that I wasn't a better man, that I didn't treat you right, didn't talk to you right, didn't uphold you, support you, lift you up, give you hope, make you know how special you are, every day I didn't somehow inspire you by my deeds to be a better person yourself. I'm sorry for every tim e I've ever hurt you. I'm sorry for not saying the right thing, thinking of you in little ways that would make you happy. I'm sorry for every moment you don't enjoy life because of the misery I've caused. I'm sorry, so sorry, for every moment you've had to feel, hurt, lonely, abandoned, crushed, defeted, lost, helpless, hopless, disgusted, discounted, forgotten, spit on, punched, kicked, laughed at, put down, beat up, broken, cheap, neglected, run over, spun around, disoriented, left out, depressed, sad, tearful, angry, bitter...etc.
I'm sorry I borke my vows to you. I'm sorry I didn't do what I promised. I'm sorry I wasn't man enough, wasn't good enough, didn't have character enough, strength enough, courage enough, belief enough, perserverence enough to do the things I said I would. I'm sorry I've failed at being a husband, a father, a man, a human being.
I'm sorry I broke God's heart. I'm sorry I hurt people He loves. I'm sorry that I became the man the prophet described to David, who hurt innocent people. I'm sorry I had to hear God say "Thou art the man".
I'm sorry I put so much sin between God and myself, between you and myself. I'm sorry I broke the two most important bonds I ever had. I'm sorry that, as a temple of the Holy Spirit, I defilied God's temple, because wherever I go whatever sin I do, God's presence is also brought to that place. I defiled His Word, His Law, I took all that was good and did evil. I'm sorry I showed contempt for the both of you. I'm sorry I brought Him shame.
I'm sorry I sinned against you and Him, I'm sorry I didn't repent immediately and completely, I'm sorry that when I finally told you, I didn't say everything, I'm sorry I withheld some things. I'm sorry I put you through the whole process.
I'm sorry when I wake up, when I work, when I play, when I eat, when I fast, when I pray, when I laugh, when I cry, when I'm alone, when I'm with you, when I talk, when I am silent. I'm sorry when I run, when I walk, rest, think, meditate, listen, understand, when I don't understand, when I hope, when I fear, when I'm in despair, when I'm uplifted, I am sorry when you do all these things, when you anthing, when you do nothing, I am sorry.
I am sorry right now. I will be sorry tommorow and eferyday and night after tommorrow, through sunshine, rain, every season, every year, every moment, every breath, I will always be sorry until God Himslef wipes away every tear. I am sorry that if I run over a mountain, or wim an ocean, I can't change what I've done and what it's done to you.
I'm sorry enough to give you my dollar , my only dollar everyday, knowing I don't have a million days. (end of letter)
The last sentence is refering to our counseler giving the analogy of him owing me a million dollars and he can only pay me one dollar a day. Wow, quite a letter huh?
Not2fun- "No-Plan-B-living-with-WS" - 04/15/10 09:25 PM
Not2fun ....
Link to original
Quote
Ladies and especially Gentlemen......
This has come before and more often in the past few months. Newbies have been dealt a debilitating blow of finding out their S is having an affair. They come here looking for advice and quickly move into Plan A. Time passes, Plan B is the obvious next step but for a million reasons they seem frozen to go there. We will hear all kinds of reasonings such as......
"I cannot afford to move out. What do I do?"
"I asked the WS to leave and they refused. What do I do?"
"I won't leave the kids. What should I do?"
So we tell them to go to Plan B. They come up with a gazillion reasons why this won't work (which them most long standing VETS drop off the threads because they get frustrated with newbies not following Dr. H's PLANS.....), so then the ask the dreaded.......
How do I Plan B while still living with my WS
The answer is........
YOU DON'T!!!!!
So I'm going to review what Plan B is and isn't......
Plan B is Avoid ALL Contact with the Wayward Spouse until the Affair has Ended
The purpose of Plan B is to give the WS a taste of what is to come IF a divorce actually takes place (pg. 79 SAA).
In Plan B, the BS needs to be as far as away from the WS and the affair. This sometimes DOES mean that the BS needs to move out. Dr. H even says he has gone as far as recommending moving to another city or state (pg. 80 SAA)!!!!! Dr. H also recommends the BS seek legal counsel for advice as to what they can legally do.
So folks, for review......
Plan B is to LEAVE your WS.....to remove yourself from the drama, angst, and disgustingness of the affair. To remove yourself from the mental anguish that the WS inflicts upon the BS......
To put this plan into motion one needs to
A. Get legal counsel. In my opinion, this should ALWAYS be done in Plan A. A WS thinks of nothing in spouting off legal mumbo-jumbo in order to keep the BS in line, aka to keep the BS from interfering with the affair, to keep BS from snooping (I KNOW this one all too well), keep the BS from exposure.....the BS's best defense from this is to educate themselves by getting real counsel from a REAL lawyer....(usually the WS is spouting off facts that they got second hand......not from a real lawyer.......)
B. Secure living arrangements. Men, pay attention to what I am about to say.......you may have to move out in order to go into a Plan B. This does not make you weak. This does not make you a doormat. This does not diminish your manhood one bit. Do whatever is necessary. Find a month-to-month lease on a apartment......find a stable friend or family member......
You think you can't afford this? Well, you will end up in divorce before long and you will be facing this VERY senario anyway. Remember the purpose of Plan B......to give the WS a taste of divorce life.
Do a search on Mortarman. Read up on his very beginnings here. He sold his HOUSE!!!!!.....Mimi, another great VET, sold her house as well. This situation is doable. Hard to implement? Yes......but very doable.......BRAINSTORM till you find a solution. It may not be easy but NECESSARY for your own sanity......
3. Secure all documents for your children. Get your own copies of birth certificates, SS cards, health records and school records. Who knows if you'll need them, but better to have them rather than scrambling around when you do.
4. Set up an intermitary. Some one who can handle all communications. Some one who can filter the facts from crap. This person needs to be able to do this without taking sides.
5. Plan B letter. The one from SAA is perfect and to the point. It is a love letter giving the WS a way back to the marriage. There is extensive samples of Plan B letter in the Notable Post section on the forum menu page.....
These are very basic, simple things to follow.........but WORK to implement. But let me tell, if you aren't up to the work of Plan B, you aren't going to up to the work of a TRUE recovery.
Now, about the children.......this is for you MEN.....
The biggest fear I see lately is leaving the kids. In case you all haven't noticed this is 2010. The courts recognize that the best solution for the kids of divorce is for BOTH parents to be involved. The thing is if you skip Plan B, your chances of divorce is pretty darn good and then you are going to be without your kids 50% of the time anyway. By doing this whole "Plan-B-while-living-with-the-WW", you are only prolonging the inevitable. The very thing you fear is going to happen anyway. The only difference is you are going to come out of the other end more mentally scarred, abused, and bitter leaving your kids with not ONE unstable parent but TWO. So now your kids are faced with having no safe haven. IF you really want the best for your children, you have to care for yourself first. It's just like when flight attendants tell you "In an emergency, place the oxygen mask on yourself FIRST, then assist your children....". If you don't secure your own mental state, you will be in NO CONDITION to secure your childrens.......
This has come before and more often in the past few months. Newbies have been dealt a debilitating blow of finding out their S is having an affair. They come here looking for advice and quickly move into Plan A. Time passes, Plan B is the obvious next step but for a million reasons they seem frozen to go there. We will hear all kinds of reasonings such as......
"I cannot afford to move out. What do I do?"
"I asked the WS to leave and they refused. What do I do?"
"I won't leave the kids. What should I do?"
So we tell them to go to Plan B. They come up with a gazillion reasons why this won't work (which them most long standing VETS drop off the threads because they get frustrated with newbies not following Dr. H's PLANS.....), so then the ask the dreaded.......
How do I Plan B while still living with my WS
The answer is........
YOU DON'T!!!!!
So I'm going to review what Plan B is and isn't......
Plan B is Avoid ALL Contact with the Wayward Spouse until the Affair has Ended
The purpose of Plan B is to give the WS a taste of what is to come IF a divorce actually takes place (pg. 79 SAA).
In Plan B, the BS needs to be as far as away from the WS and the affair. This sometimes DOES mean that the BS needs to move out. Dr. H even says he has gone as far as recommending moving to another city or state (pg. 80 SAA)!!!!! Dr. H also recommends the BS seek legal counsel for advice as to what they can legally do.
So folks, for review......
Plan B is to LEAVE your WS.....to remove yourself from the drama, angst, and disgustingness of the affair. To remove yourself from the mental anguish that the WS inflicts upon the BS......
To put this plan into motion one needs to
A. Get legal counsel. In my opinion, this should ALWAYS be done in Plan A. A WS thinks of nothing in spouting off legal mumbo-jumbo in order to keep the BS in line, aka to keep the BS from interfering with the affair, to keep BS from snooping (I KNOW this one all too well), keep the BS from exposure.....the BS's best defense from this is to educate themselves by getting real counsel from a REAL lawyer....(usually the WS is spouting off facts that they got second hand......not from a real lawyer.......)
B. Secure living arrangements. Men, pay attention to what I am about to say.......you may have to move out in order to go into a Plan B. This does not make you weak. This does not make you a doormat. This does not diminish your manhood one bit. Do whatever is necessary. Find a month-to-month lease on a apartment......find a stable friend or family member......
You think you can't afford this? Well, you will end up in divorce before long and you will be facing this VERY senario anyway. Remember the purpose of Plan B......to give the WS a taste of divorce life.
Do a search on Mortarman. Read up on his very beginnings here. He sold his HOUSE!!!!!.....Mimi, another great VET, sold her house as well. This situation is doable. Hard to implement? Yes......but very doable.......BRAINSTORM till you find a solution. It may not be easy but NECESSARY for your own sanity......
3. Secure all documents for your children. Get your own copies of birth certificates, SS cards, health records and school records. Who knows if you'll need them, but better to have them rather than scrambling around when you do.
4. Set up an intermitary. Some one who can handle all communications. Some one who can filter the facts from crap. This person needs to be able to do this without taking sides.
5. Plan B letter. The one from SAA is perfect and to the point. It is a love letter giving the WS a way back to the marriage. There is extensive samples of Plan B letter in the Notable Post section on the forum menu page.....
These are very basic, simple things to follow.........but WORK to implement. But let me tell, if you aren't up to the work of Plan B, you aren't going to up to the work of a TRUE recovery.
Now, about the children.......this is for you MEN.....
The biggest fear I see lately is leaving the kids. In case you all haven't noticed this is 2010. The courts recognize that the best solution for the kids of divorce is for BOTH parents to be involved. The thing is if you skip Plan B, your chances of divorce is pretty darn good and then you are going to be without your kids 50% of the time anyway. By doing this whole "Plan-B-while-living-with-the-WW", you are only prolonging the inevitable. The very thing you fear is going to happen anyway. The only difference is you are going to come out of the other end more mentally scarred, abused, and bitter leaving your kids with not ONE unstable parent but TWO. So now your kids are faced with having no safe haven. IF you really want the best for your children, you have to care for yourself first. It's just like when flight attendants tell you "In an emergency, place the oxygen mask on yourself FIRST, then assist your children....". If you don't secure your own mental state, you will be in NO CONDITION to secure your childrens.......
Link to original
Re: Not2fun- "No-Plan-B-living-with-WS" - 04/15/10 09:54 PM
Way to go Not!!
Re: loco wisdom per Mr Pep - 05/21/10 12:57 PM
Hope Slams her OW:
Here is one for the BS's...
Had an "moment" this morning with PP.
Went to court security here for a parking ticket. Long line..walk into the office foyer packed with people and lo and behold who is sitting there PP. She has a magazine in her lap, I turn my back to her and sign in.
When I turn around there she is holding the magazine up so that I would see her ring.... All thoughts of "turn the other cheek" went out the window.
First the ring is gaudy and cheap like her. It looks like a cocktail ring which is appropriate for her.
I take a couple steps and smile and say "PP let me see your ring".
She puts her hand down and then I said, "I figured if I paid for your ring I want to see what I was buying.".
She starts to stammer "I don't know what you mean".
I said "well as you know I gave XWH 5K from the D to buy a car for DD16 and now DD has no car and I heard he took my money and bought you a ring".
she started turning shades of purple and red starting with her plastic neck up to her eye lift.
PP says "that is between you and XH, I had nothing to do with any of this and I am not involved."
I responded with "You had nothing to do with the breakup of our M. It was no longer the 2 of us when you became the 3rd person and had an A with my H. We were very much M when you went after my husband -- your boss. You had everything to do with this and now because you are wearing a ring you think that makes it ok? You now have my leftovers. I hope you will be happy with that".
Sweet smile and walk out.
Never saw a room get so quiet. It was another "EF Hutton" moment. The woman who was sitting next to her by the end of the conversation her mouth dropped open.
I waited outside till my turn. Funny part is she would have had to walk by me to leave. She must have jumped out of a window.
OP are pigs.
_________________________
Me 53, WAH 50, M 22 years
D16, D30
alien replaces my husband "I'm not happy" -7/08
Discover OW-8/08 (his direct report and I work there also)
H moves out 10/1/08, confront Ow 10/28/08
Plan B 1/09
D final 12/09
Quote: "When there is nothing else to do, pray."
Since Pep has been on extended Break, I thought I would bring this over.
Here is one for the BS's...
Had an "moment" this morning with PP.
Went to court security here for a parking ticket. Long line..walk into the office foyer packed with people and lo and behold who is sitting there PP. She has a magazine in her lap, I turn my back to her and sign in.
When I turn around there she is holding the magazine up so that I would see her ring.... All thoughts of "turn the other cheek" went out the window.
First the ring is gaudy and cheap like her. It looks like a cocktail ring which is appropriate for her.
I take a couple steps and smile and say "PP let me see your ring".
She puts her hand down and then I said, "I figured if I paid for your ring I want to see what I was buying.".
She starts to stammer "I don't know what you mean".
I said "well as you know I gave XWH 5K from the D to buy a car for DD16 and now DD has no car and I heard he took my money and bought you a ring".
she started turning shades of purple and red starting with her plastic neck up to her eye lift.
PP says "that is between you and XH, I had nothing to do with any of this and I am not involved."
I responded with "You had nothing to do with the breakup of our M. It was no longer the 2 of us when you became the 3rd person and had an A with my H. We were very much M when you went after my husband -- your boss. You had everything to do with this and now because you are wearing a ring you think that makes it ok? You now have my leftovers. I hope you will be happy with that".
Sweet smile and walk out.
Never saw a room get so quiet. It was another "EF Hutton" moment. The woman who was sitting next to her by the end of the conversation her mouth dropped open.
I waited outside till my turn. Funny part is she would have had to walk by me to leave. She must have jumped out of a window.
OP are pigs.
_________________________
Me 53, WAH 50, M 22 years
D16, D30
alien replaces my husband "I'm not happy" -7/08
Discover OW-8/08 (his direct report and I work there also)
H moves out 10/1/08, confront Ow 10/28/08
Plan B 1/09
D final 12/09
Quote: "When there is nothing else to do, pray."
Since Pep has been on extended Break, I thought I would bring this over.
Re: loco wisdom per Mr Pep - 05/21/10 01:36 PM
I love it, accountability is sweet...........
Sorry you had to live through that but I'm proud of you
Sorry you had to live through that but I'm proud of you
Re: loco wisdom per Mr Pep - 05/21/10 01:48 PM
Jessie:
Start from the beginning of this thread.
LG
Start from the beginning of this thread.
LG
Re: loco wisdom per Mr Pep - 05/21/10 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by lousygolfer
Hope Slams her OW:
Here is one for the BS's...
Had an "moment" this morning with PP.
Went to court security here for a parking ticket. Long line..walk into the office foyer packed with people and lo and behold who is sitting there PP. She has a magazine in her lap, I turn my back to her and sign in.
When I turn around there she is holding the magazine up so that I would see her ring.... All thoughts of "turn the other cheek" went out the window.
First the ring is gaudy and cheap like her. It looks like a cocktail ring which is appropriate for her.
I take a couple steps and smile and say "PP let me see your ring".
She puts her hand down and then I said, "I figured if I paid for your ring I want to see what I was buying.".
She starts to stammer "I don't know what you mean".
I said "well as you know I gave XWH 5K from the D to buy a car for DD16 and now DD has no car and I heard he took my money and bought you a ring".
she started turning shades of purple and red starting with her plastic neck up to her eye lift.
PP says "that is between you and XH, I had nothing to do with any of this and I am not involved."
I responded with "You had nothing to do with the breakup of our M. It was no longer the 2 of us when you became the 3rd person and had an A with my H. We were very much M when you went after my husband -- your boss. You had everything to do with this and now because you are wearing a ring you think that makes it ok? You now have my leftovers. I hope you will be happy with that".
Sweet smile and walk out.
Never saw a room get so quiet. It was another "EF Hutton" moment. The woman who was sitting next to her by the end of the conversation her mouth dropped open.
I waited outside till my turn. Funny part is she would have had to walk by me to leave. She must have jumped out of a window.
OP are pigs.
_________________________
Me 53, WAH 50, M 22 years
D16, D30
alien replaces my husband "I'm not happy" -7/08
Discover OW-8/08 (his direct report and I work there also)
H moves out 10/1/08, confront Ow 10/28/08
Plan B 1/09
D final 12/09
Quote: "When there is nothing else to do, pray."
Since Pep has been on extended Break, I thought I would bring this over.
Here is one for the BS's...
Had an "moment" this morning with PP.
Went to court security here for a parking ticket. Long line..walk into the office foyer packed with people and lo and behold who is sitting there PP. She has a magazine in her lap, I turn my back to her and sign in.
When I turn around there she is holding the magazine up so that I would see her ring.... All thoughts of "turn the other cheek" went out the window.
First the ring is gaudy and cheap like her. It looks like a cocktail ring which is appropriate for her.
I take a couple steps and smile and say "PP let me see your ring".
She puts her hand down and then I said, "I figured if I paid for your ring I want to see what I was buying.".
She starts to stammer "I don't know what you mean".
I said "well as you know I gave XWH 5K from the D to buy a car for DD16 and now DD has no car and I heard he took my money and bought you a ring".
she started turning shades of purple and red starting with her plastic neck up to her eye lift.
PP says "that is between you and XH, I had nothing to do with any of this and I am not involved."
I responded with "You had nothing to do with the breakup of our M. It was no longer the 2 of us when you became the 3rd person and had an A with my H. We were very much M when you went after my husband -- your boss. You had everything to do with this and now because you are wearing a ring you think that makes it ok? You now have my leftovers. I hope you will be happy with that".
Sweet smile and walk out.
Never saw a room get so quiet. It was another "EF Hutton" moment. The woman who was sitting next to her by the end of the conversation her mouth dropped open.
I waited outside till my turn. Funny part is she would have had to walk by me to leave. She must have jumped out of a window.
OP are pigs.
_________________________
Me 53, WAH 50, M 22 years
D16, D30
alien replaces my husband "I'm not happy" -7/08
Discover OW-8/08 (his direct report and I work there also)
H moves out 10/1/08, confront Ow 10/28/08
Plan B 1/09
D final 12/09
Quote: "When there is nothing else to do, pray."
Since Pep has been on extended Break, I thought I would bring this over.
WOW LG, thanks for making my day...Notable Quotes! I am honored. I will have to scratch this off from my "Bucket List".
Schoolbus : teens caught in the middle BS vs WS - 06/15/10 04:48 PM
Written by Schoolbus.
How to deal with a teenager who is adopting the Wandering Parent's point of view.
Link to original (May 23, 2010)
Link
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Your comment about your WH wanting to be "in control" of everything right now is really correct. He is working on the weakest link in the chain - your 14 year old. It is not a surprise to me that he is doing this. He understands teenagers, and knows that they tend to support the person they perceive as the underdog, or the person they believe to be "seeking their happiness". Chances are he has positioned himself with her as both of these - to embolden his stance and to get her on "his side". He is a pig, because he is manipulating her and HE KNOWS IT.
The way to fight this is with questions back to her.
When she comes to you standing up for him, do not fight or argue with her. Only ask her questions, and when she responds, don't argue - just nod your head and say things like, "I see" or "Maybe your perceptions are missing another point of view". Say nothing more, and do not engage her in any discussions regarding what she believes as her dad's needs or wants.
Your questions should be open-ended, and allow for her to state what she things aloud - because teens have a need to express ideas and hear their own opinions on things from their own mouths. Additionally, they want to be "heard", not corrected, guided, lectured, etc. If you present her with this open forum type of systematic listening, she will ultimately hear herself arguing "the wrong side"....and come to understand - without any help from anyone else - exactly what her father is doing and why it is wrong. You do not need to guide her, lecture her, or even stand your ground. It will amaze you.
When she stands up for him and chastises you for doing anything through this process, or criticises your stance:
Questions to ask sound like this...
I hear your disagreement with my approach. What would your approach be?
I understand you believe he is pursuing his happiness (or whatever the soup of the day is!), what do you believe happiness to be?
You're telling me that you believe it was incorrect for me to _____. Maybe you have heard of other ways to do this, and would like to offer me a suggestion for another way. Tell me your idea so I can hear what you have to say.
I can tell you are upset about ________. I want to know your ideas on what might repair things, or ways to better handle this situation.
After she responds, you only say things like:
Hmmmm.
I understand why you believe that.
Your life experience would probably lead you to believe that, so I do understand where you are coming from.
Thank you for sharing your feelings with me. I guess we just disagree on this one.
I know that for now you are torn between me and dad. I love you, and at some point maybe you will want to hear why I feel the way I do. For now, I am happy you were able to share your feelings and ideas with me.
Don't engage in useless fighting with her. Everything you say and do goes straight back to him, and IT WILL BE TWISTED. Guaranteed. During your Plan B, you can actually Plan A him by being a terrific mother, and by working as strongly and lovingly as you can with your kids, and fighting to love DD14 through this mess and his terrible influence.
She will ultimately thank you for it.
And yes, I know, it is just one more stressful job to do - that you never would have had to do if not for his affair.
SB
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GREAT ADVICE for a tricky situation !
How to deal with a teenager who is adopting the Wandering Parent's point of view.
Link to original (May 23, 2010)
Link
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Your comment about your WH wanting to be "in control" of everything right now is really correct. He is working on the weakest link in the chain - your 14 year old. It is not a surprise to me that he is doing this. He understands teenagers, and knows that they tend to support the person they perceive as the underdog, or the person they believe to be "seeking their happiness". Chances are he has positioned himself with her as both of these - to embolden his stance and to get her on "his side". He is a pig, because he is manipulating her and HE KNOWS IT.
The way to fight this is with questions back to her.
When she comes to you standing up for him, do not fight or argue with her. Only ask her questions, and when she responds, don't argue - just nod your head and say things like, "I see" or "Maybe your perceptions are missing another point of view". Say nothing more, and do not engage her in any discussions regarding what she believes as her dad's needs or wants.
Your questions should be open-ended, and allow for her to state what she things aloud - because teens have a need to express ideas and hear their own opinions on things from their own mouths. Additionally, they want to be "heard", not corrected, guided, lectured, etc. If you present her with this open forum type of systematic listening, she will ultimately hear herself arguing "the wrong side"....and come to understand - without any help from anyone else - exactly what her father is doing and why it is wrong. You do not need to guide her, lecture her, or even stand your ground. It will amaze you.
When she stands up for him and chastises you for doing anything through this process, or criticises your stance:
Questions to ask sound like this...
I hear your disagreement with my approach. What would your approach be?
I understand you believe he is pursuing his happiness (or whatever the soup of the day is!), what do you believe happiness to be?
You're telling me that you believe it was incorrect for me to _____. Maybe you have heard of other ways to do this, and would like to offer me a suggestion for another way. Tell me your idea so I can hear what you have to say.
I can tell you are upset about ________. I want to know your ideas on what might repair things, or ways to better handle this situation.
After she responds, you only say things like:
Hmmmm.
I understand why you believe that.
Your life experience would probably lead you to believe that, so I do understand where you are coming from.
Thank you for sharing your feelings with me. I guess we just disagree on this one.
I know that for now you are torn between me and dad. I love you, and at some point maybe you will want to hear why I feel the way I do. For now, I am happy you were able to share your feelings and ideas with me.
Don't engage in useless fighting with her. Everything you say and do goes straight back to him, and IT WILL BE TWISTED. Guaranteed. During your Plan B, you can actually Plan A him by being a terrific mother, and by working as strongly and lovingly as you can with your kids, and fighting to love DD14 through this mess and his terrible influence.
She will ultimately thank you for it.
And yes, I know, it is just one more stressful job to do - that you never would have had to do if not for his affair.
SB
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GREAT ADVICE for a tricky situation !
How to effectively search this thread - 06/15/10 05:01 PM
1. Click on "topic options" tab above any post on the thread.
2. The last choice is " switch to thread mode" , click on that one.
3. I have tried to make a description for each entry that will help me quickly find the topic or the poster I am looking for.
4. The posts made by "pepperbands" ( with an s at the end) are not mine.
5. If you add a post as a notable, try to describe it in the title.
If possible, link to the original thread where the " notable" was found.
2. The last choice is " switch to thread mode" , click on that one.
3. I have tried to make a description for each entry that will help me quickly find the topic or the poster I am looking for.
4. The posts made by "pepperbands" ( with an s at the end) are not mine.
5. If you add a post as a notable, try to describe it in the title.
If possible, link to the original thread where the " notable" was found.
Re: Schoolbus : teens caught in the middle BS vs WS - 06/15/10 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by pepperband
Written by Schoolbus.
How to deal with a teenager who is adopting the Wandering Parent's point of view.
How to deal with a teenager who is adopting the Wandering Parent's point of view.
Excellant timing for this post. DD15 seems to EAT UP any crap WxH throws to her. I am always the unreasonable villian.
We just recently had a blowup where he threatened to call the sheriff (he had no standing at all) if I didn't do what he wanted.
I do not respond to him at all - this was an issue between DD15 and I and her cell phone (he considered it "stolen goods" because I took her phone from her).
I also do not discuss with her his tantrums - I stay calm and continue my course.
It is incredibly frustrating, though, to always be treated like her dad is so superior and the ultimate parent. While I do everything for her.
Thank you for posting this........
Where can I find the thread for this post?
Marcos to GM: Your instincts are WRONG - 06/30/10 04:30 PM
Link to original Marcos post
Originally Posted by markos
Hey, GreenMile. I can really see a lot of similarities in the way you and I react to things, so I thought I might be able to point some things out in ways that would be helpful to you. Even if it's not helpful to you, maybe writing some of the thoughts will be helpful to me. 
I really, really empathize with that feeling that every time there is a downturn it feels like what your wife is saying is definitive and final and there is no hope. I get that feeling a lot, and if I let it happen, it can make me completely crazy, make me do absolutely STUPID stuff, and make me do things that absolutely HURT my wife. Then the next thing I know, the reason there is no hope is ME!
Listen, she is likely to use language that to you sounds like "I'm through with you and this marriage and this recovery," when what she means is "I'm through with this discussion because it is hurting me." She is also likely to say things out of emotion in the heat of the moment that she won't feel like later. Have you seen this happen? Remind yourself of this in the heat of the moment; let her vent. It's not the make or break moment for your marriage.
And listen, you've got to face the fact that she's always got the choice to end it. What will you do if she does make that decision? In order to avoid turning into that quivering bowl full of helly, you've got to come to grips with this fact and face it with a measure of acceptance. You need her badly, but you need to become a person who would be capable of standing on your own. If you had a plan for personal recovery in the event of DWG deciding to be through with you, a plan that involved yourself and your sons and your personal recovery, then maybe you would react with less fear when you feel like your marriage is threatened. Yes, it would be very sad for you if DWG were to pull the plug. But, you would keep breathing. You would still have a lot to live for.
When things get rough, the most important issue is THE WAY YOU HANDLE IT. I�m sure you know that, but your instincts about how to handle it are going to be totally, totally wrong. You want recovery to continue, you want the good times you two are starting to experience to continue, you feel like those things are threatened by this obstacle (and they are), and so you desperately start trying to MAKE the obstacle go away. DO NOT DO THIS. This is the wrong way to handle it. From your point of view you are just trying to make things better. You feel like in fact you are just trying to help your wife. But that desperation and that attempt to MAKE things get better makes her feel controlled!!! That makes the problem worse!!! In fact, whether you realize it or not, you are trying to control your wife�s thinking. It�s the classic Disrespectful Judgment, and it�s a Love Buster here just like it is always. A massive Love Buster. Your instincts are gonna kill you here if you don�t get them under control and quit following them.
And I hate that because it sets progress back so much.
But take heart. It is not too late in the game for you to learn new habits and learn how to not follow these instincts. It�s just new habits and skills for you to learn as far as how to react when there appears to be a threat to recovery. (A conflict, though you might not realize at the beginning that conflict is occurring; you�re likely to simply perceive a threat to recovery/marriage, and not notice there�s a conflict until you guys are into massive Love Busters. We rationalize our own controlling LBs (SD, DJ, AO), and that means they appear rational to us so we don�t even notice them!!!)
I empathize with some of the things you are saying about Extreme Precautions. Long before Marriage Builders, before I even met my wife, I put in my own �extreme precautions� (using a different name) to avoid sexual behaviors I regarded as wrong. And I had to do a lot of talking to myself, basically personal coaching. �I am a new man, I am not the man I was before, I am strong and have walls in place that cannot be broken through,� etc. They way you talk about your EPs sounds a lot like the way I talked to myself back then, and it�s probably a great way to encourage yourself and keep those EPs strong. But it�s no way to talk to a woman. It�s not going to reassure her at all. How do you help her understand you were not that guy you were all those years? You DON�T do it the same way you convince yourself of that fact. Your thought is actually a rationalization of wanting to CONTROL what she�s thinking. You think it�s helpful, but that desire to control her thinking is more damaging than you can possibly imagine.
What you need is a plan you can stick to and fall back on. A written plan for yourself with three aspects: your extreme precautions, your plan to overcome Love Busters (especially including your plan for eliminating control/abuse LBs: SD, DJ, AO, all attempts to control her and her thinking), and your plan to meet her Emotional Needs. You probably already have all this. (If not, get it!) Your plan is to be continually refined as you become more of an expert at all of these. When obstacles come, you remind yourself �I have a plan for success. I will keep following my plan. I won�t try to control her here and bring her along; I�ll just fall back on my plan.� This will give you confidence and take away that fear. Because of your increasing understanding of your wife, your plan is nearly guaranteed to succeed, if you follow it faithfully with continuing refinements, and IF SHE LETS YOU. The trick is she doesn�t have to let you, and you have to accept that. So you tell yourself �I�ll stick with my plan until the very end. I�ll go down with the ship, if necessary. Even if she starts trying to get out, I�ll continue to offer compensation by working at becoming an expert at meeting her emotional needs, having no tolerance for Love Busters on my part, and taking Extreme Precautions to avoid any outside threat to our marriage.� (Though it probably won�t come to going down the ship. But if it did, your plan is to keep on following-through, even up to two years after she�s gone. If you will aim out that far, you will likely hit your target and it won�t be an issue.)
I made a discovery recently. My discovery is about the words �defensive� and �defensiveness.� My discovery is this: I always thought that �being defensive� was about my feelings. It was a feeling I needed to learn to control. And if my wife thought I was being defensive, well, really she was judging my feelings, and this is a subjective thing with multiple opinions and points of view.
Turns out I was wrong. If you�re defending yourself, you�re defensive, no matter how you feel. Same for me, here. I gotta quit defending myself, and so do you. Women tend to word things in ways that make men look at and question their feelings (and then proudly proclaim that the feelings are right, because they are), but men need things worded in terms of behavior: what should I do? What should I stop doing? What you should do is stop defending yourself, entirely. Like Pep said, there�s nothing to defend here. If she doesn�t like something, you�ll quit doing it, period, without even trying to negotiate a way to do it. If she wants to know something, you�ll tell her. If you don�t remember, you�ll simply say you don�t remember. If you remember later, you�ll go back and tell her. Be honest. Always be honest. Just be honest and let her decide if your answer is something to worry about or not, and how to react to it.
What should you do instead? You focus on her and her feelings. That�s what thoughtfulness is!
Women, especially your wife, don�t want to teach you how to do this. That�s the shortcut approach anyway. You�re obligated to learn it even if she won�t help you. It�s still your responsibility. And she does NOT have it in her to help you! Even if she did, she�d probably be ineffective, because she speaks Woman, and you speak Man. All she�d tell you is how to feel, and you already feel that way; you need to know how to ACT.
So, here�s how to act: when your wife comes to you with ANYTHING she wants to know, anything that�s wrong, anything that indicates a conflict, anything that smells to you like a threat to recovery: FIRST, make sure you have an understanding of what happened, what�s worrying her, what you did, etc. SECOND, achieve empathy by understanding why she is hurt: �This is how you got hurt?� �This is why you got hurt?� �When stuff is moved around in my car, it worries you because it looks like somebody has been in there?� Validate her on the fact that she got hurt. Don�t do or say anything to give her the idea that you think she should not be hurt or would like for her to get over being hurt quickly. (No matter how much you do feel for her pain and want her to feel better. This is not the time for apologies.) Both of these steps are all about being a good conversationalist and using conversation to investigate and understand your spouse. Seek understanding. THIRD, express apology: �I am sorry that I gave you cause to worry by moving things around in my car!�
No defensiveness, at all. That means no defending yourself, no matter how you feel. We don�t need to determine who is right or wrong; what matters is her feelings! Defending yourself even includes these statements, which my crappy instincts would have told me sound thoughtful: �I didn�t know� �I didn�t realize,� or their cousin �How was I supposed to know?� It�s all about her and what she feels at this point, not about you and what you know.
LATER (possibly MUCH LATER if she is still reeling from the hurt), offer to have some discussion and brainstorming and negotiation on how to make sure it never happens again.
Read this great article, and you�ll see a perfect image of how you came off to your wife. (Painful for me to read, as I know I�ve been doing this for six years.) http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8507_fft.html
You wanted to tell your wife she has nothing to worry about. This instinct doesn�t help, because essentially you are telling her not to be hurt. Ow. When you cause a wound (which you did by moving stuff in your car), tend to the bleeding instead, using the process I outlined above. (Steve Harley gave it to me on the phone, so it must be good. It looked like liquid gold to me, like just the piece I was missing.) You don�t reassure her by reassuring her.
Finally, I�d say it doesn�t matter much that you have DWG�s blessing to be in this band. It sure looks risky, and she looks reluctant. Do you think she�s still ENTHUSIASTIC about it?
Why can�t you guys spend 100% of your time together?
By the way, don�t be surprised your wife can remember exactly where everything was in the car. Women�s brains are more connected than ours (I tell my wife their brains are more melted than ours) and they notice details like that.
I really, really empathize with that feeling that every time there is a downturn it feels like what your wife is saying is definitive and final and there is no hope. I get that feeling a lot, and if I let it happen, it can make me completely crazy, make me do absolutely STUPID stuff, and make me do things that absolutely HURT my wife. Then the next thing I know, the reason there is no hope is ME!
Listen, she is likely to use language that to you sounds like "I'm through with you and this marriage and this recovery," when what she means is "I'm through with this discussion because it is hurting me." She is also likely to say things out of emotion in the heat of the moment that she won't feel like later. Have you seen this happen? Remind yourself of this in the heat of the moment; let her vent. It's not the make or break moment for your marriage.
And listen, you've got to face the fact that she's always got the choice to end it. What will you do if she does make that decision? In order to avoid turning into that quivering bowl full of helly, you've got to come to grips with this fact and face it with a measure of acceptance. You need her badly, but you need to become a person who would be capable of standing on your own. If you had a plan for personal recovery in the event of DWG deciding to be through with you, a plan that involved yourself and your sons and your personal recovery, then maybe you would react with less fear when you feel like your marriage is threatened. Yes, it would be very sad for you if DWG were to pull the plug. But, you would keep breathing. You would still have a lot to live for.
When things get rough, the most important issue is THE WAY YOU HANDLE IT. I�m sure you know that, but your instincts about how to handle it are going to be totally, totally wrong. You want recovery to continue, you want the good times you two are starting to experience to continue, you feel like those things are threatened by this obstacle (and they are), and so you desperately start trying to MAKE the obstacle go away. DO NOT DO THIS. This is the wrong way to handle it. From your point of view you are just trying to make things better. You feel like in fact you are just trying to help your wife. But that desperation and that attempt to MAKE things get better makes her feel controlled!!! That makes the problem worse!!! In fact, whether you realize it or not, you are trying to control your wife�s thinking. It�s the classic Disrespectful Judgment, and it�s a Love Buster here just like it is always. A massive Love Buster. Your instincts are gonna kill you here if you don�t get them under control and quit following them.
And I hate that because it sets progress back so much.
But take heart. It is not too late in the game for you to learn new habits and learn how to not follow these instincts. It�s just new habits and skills for you to learn as far as how to react when there appears to be a threat to recovery. (A conflict, though you might not realize at the beginning that conflict is occurring; you�re likely to simply perceive a threat to recovery/marriage, and not notice there�s a conflict until you guys are into massive Love Busters. We rationalize our own controlling LBs (SD, DJ, AO), and that means they appear rational to us so we don�t even notice them!!!)
I empathize with some of the things you are saying about Extreme Precautions. Long before Marriage Builders, before I even met my wife, I put in my own �extreme precautions� (using a different name) to avoid sexual behaviors I regarded as wrong. And I had to do a lot of talking to myself, basically personal coaching. �I am a new man, I am not the man I was before, I am strong and have walls in place that cannot be broken through,� etc. They way you talk about your EPs sounds a lot like the way I talked to myself back then, and it�s probably a great way to encourage yourself and keep those EPs strong. But it�s no way to talk to a woman. It�s not going to reassure her at all. How do you help her understand you were not that guy you were all those years? You DON�T do it the same way you convince yourself of that fact. Your thought is actually a rationalization of wanting to CONTROL what she�s thinking. You think it�s helpful, but that desire to control her thinking is more damaging than you can possibly imagine.
What you need is a plan you can stick to and fall back on. A written plan for yourself with three aspects: your extreme precautions, your plan to overcome Love Busters (especially including your plan for eliminating control/abuse LBs: SD, DJ, AO, all attempts to control her and her thinking), and your plan to meet her Emotional Needs. You probably already have all this. (If not, get it!) Your plan is to be continually refined as you become more of an expert at all of these. When obstacles come, you remind yourself �I have a plan for success. I will keep following my plan. I won�t try to control her here and bring her along; I�ll just fall back on my plan.� This will give you confidence and take away that fear. Because of your increasing understanding of your wife, your plan is nearly guaranteed to succeed, if you follow it faithfully with continuing refinements, and IF SHE LETS YOU. The trick is she doesn�t have to let you, and you have to accept that. So you tell yourself �I�ll stick with my plan until the very end. I�ll go down with the ship, if necessary. Even if she starts trying to get out, I�ll continue to offer compensation by working at becoming an expert at meeting her emotional needs, having no tolerance for Love Busters on my part, and taking Extreme Precautions to avoid any outside threat to our marriage.� (Though it probably won�t come to going down the ship. But if it did, your plan is to keep on following-through, even up to two years after she�s gone. If you will aim out that far, you will likely hit your target and it won�t be an issue.)
I made a discovery recently. My discovery is about the words �defensive� and �defensiveness.� My discovery is this: I always thought that �being defensive� was about my feelings. It was a feeling I needed to learn to control. And if my wife thought I was being defensive, well, really she was judging my feelings, and this is a subjective thing with multiple opinions and points of view.
Turns out I was wrong. If you�re defending yourself, you�re defensive, no matter how you feel.
Same for me, here. I gotta quit defending myself, and so do you. Women tend to word things in ways that make men look at and question their feelings (and then proudly proclaim that the feelings are right, because they are), but men need things worded in terms of behavior: what should I do? What should I stop doing? What you should do is stop defending yourself, entirely. Like Pep said, there�s nothing to defend here. If she doesn�t like something, you�ll quit doing it, period, without even trying to negotiate a way to do it. If she wants to know something, you�ll tell her. If you don�t remember, you�ll simply say you don�t remember. If you remember later, you�ll go back and tell her. Be honest. Always be honest. Just be honest and let her decide if your answer is something to worry about or not, and how to react to it. What should you do instead? You focus on her and her feelings. That�s what thoughtfulness is!
Women, especially your wife, don�t want to teach you how to do this. That�s the shortcut approach anyway. You�re obligated to learn it even if she won�t help you. It�s still your responsibility. And she does NOT have it in her to help you! Even if she did, she�d probably be ineffective, because she speaks Woman, and you speak Man. All she�d tell you is how to feel, and you already feel that way; you need to know how to ACT.
So, here�s how to act: when your wife comes to you with ANYTHING she wants to know, anything that�s wrong, anything that indicates a conflict, anything that smells to you like a threat to recovery: FIRST, make sure you have an understanding of what happened, what�s worrying her, what you did, etc. SECOND, achieve empathy by understanding why she is hurt: �This is how you got hurt?� �This is why you got hurt?� �When stuff is moved around in my car, it worries you because it looks like somebody has been in there?� Validate her on the fact that she got hurt. Don�t do or say anything to give her the idea that you think she should not be hurt or would like for her to get over being hurt quickly. (No matter how much you do feel for her pain and want her to feel better. This is not the time for apologies.) Both of these steps are all about being a good conversationalist and using conversation to investigate and understand your spouse. Seek understanding. THIRD, express apology: �I am sorry that I gave you cause to worry by moving things around in my car!�
No defensiveness, at all. That means no defending yourself, no matter how you feel. We don�t need to determine who is right or wrong; what matters is her feelings! Defending yourself even includes these statements, which my crappy instincts would have told me sound thoughtful: �I didn�t know� �I didn�t realize,� or their cousin �How was I supposed to know?� It�s all about her and what she feels at this point, not about you and what you know.
LATER (possibly MUCH LATER if she is still reeling from the hurt), offer to have some discussion and brainstorming and negotiation on how to make sure it never happens again.
Read this great article, and you�ll see a perfect image of how you came off to your wife. (Painful for me to read, as I know I�ve been doing this for six years.) http:/
You wanted to tell your wife she has nothing to worry about. This instinct doesn�t help, because essentially you are telling her not to be hurt. Ow. When you cause a wound (which you did by moving stuff in your car), tend to the bleeding instead, using the process I outlined above. (Steve Harley gave it to me on the phone, so it must be good. It looked like liquid gold to me, like just the piece I was missing.) You don�t reassure her by reassuring her.
Finally, I�d say it doesn�t matter much that you have DWG�s blessing to be in this band. It sure looks risky, and she looks reluctant. Do you think she�s still ENTHUSIASTIC about it?
Why can�t you guys spend 100% of your time together?
By the way, don�t be surprised your wife can remember exactly where everything was in the car. Women�s brains are more connected than ours (I tell my wife their brains are more melted than ours) and they notice details like that.
Re: Recovery from a House Fire and Adultery - 07/14/10 09:35 PM
Originally posted by Mark1952 on BT's thread - Discussing House Fires and Recovery
Quote
It's as if the house caught fire in the middle of the night. You fought every obstacle that was presented to overcome the smoke and heat and darkness and you rescued your family. Everyone stands on the front lawn, grateful for the chance to move forward in life. The fire department has put out the fire and the insurance adjuster has made his investigation. You even have the check you need to begin rebuilding in hand.
But you still stand in front of a burned out mess, the smell of ashes, smoke and destruction filling your nostrils with burning pain and grief.
To make matters worse, you both have injuries that have to be healed as the rebuilding begins.
There are three parts to the healing process here. First is that you each have to heal. You have to both work through the emotional wreckage, find what is still usable and what needs to be thrown out and discover new motivations to even get up in the morning. Until withdrawal is complete, your wife will not be even really working on this phase. Sorry to break that to you like that, but it means she will still be trying to minimize what has happened for a while. She's just realizing she is the one who set the fire and she did it on purpose.
The second part is to heal together as a couple. This phase can last longer than the first, but it is now that you begin to come back together and sooth each other's wounds, show care for each other and begin to seek each other out for comfort.
The third phase is working to build a new and better marriage. It is NOW that you start tweaking and sharing goals, ENs and fine tuning the relationship to mold it into one that can make both of you happy. Unfortunately, you can't bypass any steps or move on to the next before the previous is complete.
In context of the burned out house analogy, recovery begins with each getting checked out at the hospital and resting and recovering from the ordeal and giving time to your body to recover from the injuries you got when escaping the fire.
The second phase will be as you pick through the rubble, examining each piece of the relationship to see what still works and what needs to be eliminated. You will only be able to really start this process once you are both able to work on it and though you are both willing, only after you have each healed enough to tackle the hard stuff will you reach the second phase.
The third phase in the analogy comes when you start building the new house. You might need an architect along the way (Jennifer) and you need to decide on what will go into the new house (ENs, LBs, habits, likes, dislikes...)and you need to be sure the foundation is sufficient to hold up the load of what you are building (Understanding the LB$ model, making it part of you, learning to meet ENs and avoid Love Busters etc.)
Even when all of these pieces have fallen into place, you aren't ready to move into the new house because you still have to do the work to build it. And even once you live there, the work doesn't stop since you have to keep up the house or it will fall into disrepair and be another fire waiting to happen.
Three phases...
But you still stand in front of a burned out mess, the smell of ashes, smoke and destruction filling your nostrils with burning pain and grief.
To make matters worse, you both have injuries that have to be healed as the rebuilding begins.
There are three parts to the healing process here. First is that you each have to heal. You have to both work through the emotional wreckage, find what is still usable and what needs to be thrown out and discover new motivations to even get up in the morning. Until withdrawal is complete, your wife will not be even really working on this phase. Sorry to break that to you like that, but it means she will still be trying to minimize what has happened for a while. She's just realizing she is the one who set the fire and she did it on purpose.
The second part is to heal together as a couple. This phase can last longer than the first, but it is now that you begin to come back together and sooth each other's wounds, show care for each other and begin to seek each other out for comfort.
The third phase is working to build a new and better marriage. It is NOW that you start tweaking and sharing goals, ENs and fine tuning the relationship to mold it into one that can make both of you happy. Unfortunately, you can't bypass any steps or move on to the next before the previous is complete.
In context of the burned out house analogy, recovery begins with each getting checked out at the hospital and resting and recovering from the ordeal and giving time to your body to recover from the injuries you got when escaping the fire.
The second phase will be as you pick through the rubble, examining each piece of the relationship to see what still works and what needs to be eliminated. You will only be able to really start this process once you are both able to work on it and though you are both willing, only after you have each healed enough to tackle the hard stuff will you reach the second phase.
The third phase in the analogy comes when you start building the new house. You might need an architect along the way (Jennifer) and you need to decide on what will go into the new house (ENs, LBs, habits, likes, dislikes...)and you need to be sure the foundation is sufficient to hold up the load of what you are building (Understanding the LB$ model, making it part of you, learning to meet ENs and avoid Love Busters etc.)
Even when all of these pieces have fallen into place, you aren't ready to move into the new house because you still have to do the work to build it. And even once you live there, the work doesn't stop since you have to keep up the house or it will fall into disrepair and be another fire waiting to happen.
Three phases...
Marks - 07/17/10 03:27 PM
I wanted to include the entire post.
Thanks PM.
Thanks PM.
Quote
Recovery is WAY harder than Plan A most of the time. In Plan A you set short goals, lower expectation of getting anything in return and just execute a plan one step after the other.
Enter RECOVERY...
Now we have to work through ever detail. We can't relax our doing all the while struggling to get our own needs met which during Plan A were not getting met at all...
And here's the part that makes recovery so blasted hard...
We can't even decide to step away and stop the pain of dealing with it by going into Plan B because we still hurt. There is no Plan B for recovery.
Now if there is some other issue such as physical abuse, drug addiction or something else that is standing in the way of progress, then Plan B comes back into play, but forcing the (F)WS to start engaging in recovery is not one of the things Plan B was designed for.
Recovery pretty much sucks most of the time and early recovery sucks almost all of the time.
But that brings me back to the time factor here...
As time goes on, new patterns of communication get established. New responses to interactions get created. New ways to responding to each other get discovered and each tiny step builds upon the previous ones to make the whole process go more smoothly.
Also keep in mind that once the adrenaline wears off, you are left with no emotional motivation factors that drive you onward as if by some outside force. You have to find motivation within to keep trying when things are not going the way you hoped for.
It's as if the house caught fire in the middle of the night. You fought every obstacle that was presented to overcome the smoke and heat and darkness and you rescued your family. Everyone stands on the front lawn, grateful for the chance to move forward in life. The fire department has put out the fire and the insurance adjuster has made his investigation. You even have the check you need to begin rebuilding in hand.
But you still stand in front of a burned out mess, the smell of ashes, smoke and destruction filling your nostrils with burning pain and grief.
To make matters worse, you both have injuries that have to be healed as the rebuilding begins.
There are three parts to the healing process here. First is that you each have to heal. You have to both work through the emotional wreckage, find what is still usable and what needs to be thrown out and discover new motivations to even get up in the morning. Until withdrawal is complete, your wife will not be even really working on this phase. Sorry to break that to you like that, but it means she will still be trying to minimize what has happened for a while. She's just realizing she is the one who set the fire and she did it on purpose.
The second part is to heal together as a couple. This phase can last longer than the first, but it is now that you begin to come back together and sooth each other's wounds, show care for each other and begin to seek each other out for comfort.
The third phase is working to build a new and better marriage. It is NOW that you start tweaking and sharing goals, ENs and fine tuning the relationship to mold it into one that can make both of you happy. Unfortunately, you can't bypass any steps or move on to the next before the previous is complete.
In context of the burned out house analogy, recovery begins with each getting checked out at the hospital and resting and recovering from the ordeal and giving time to your body to recover from the injuries you got when escaping the fire.
The second phase will be as you pick through the rubble, examining each piece of the relationship to see what still works and what needs to be eliminated. You will only be able to really start this process once you are both able to work on it and though you are both willing, only after you have each healed enough to tackle the hard stuff will you reach the second phase.
The third phase in the analogy comes when you start building the new house. You might need an architect along the way (Jennifer) and you need to decide on what will go into the new house (ENs, LBs, habits, likes, dislikes...)and you need to be sure the foundation is sufficient to hold up the load of what you are building (Understanding the LB$ model, making it part of you, learning to meet ENs and avoid Love Busters etc.)
Even when all of these pieces have fallen into place, you aren't ready to move into the new house because you still have to do the work to build it. And even once you live there, the work doesn't stop since you have to keep up the house or it will fall into disrepair and be another fire waiting to happen.
Three phases...
* Personal and individual healing
* Healing together as a couple
* Negotiating a new and better relationship
And then the hard work of making it reality begins.
Mark
Enter RECOVERY...
Now we have to work through ever detail. We can't relax our doing all the while struggling to get our own needs met which during Plan A were not getting met at all...
And here's the part that makes recovery so blasted hard...
We can't even decide to step away and stop the pain of dealing with it by going into Plan B because we still hurt. There is no Plan B for recovery.
Now if there is some other issue such as physical abuse, drug addiction or something else that is standing in the way of progress, then Plan B comes back into play, but forcing the (F)WS to start engaging in recovery is not one of the things Plan B was designed for.
Recovery pretty much sucks most of the time and early recovery sucks almost all of the time.
But that brings me back to the time factor here...
As time goes on, new patterns of communication get established. New responses to interactions get created. New ways to responding to each other get discovered and each tiny step builds upon the previous ones to make the whole process go more smoothly.
Also keep in mind that once the adrenaline wears off, you are left with no emotional motivation factors that drive you onward as if by some outside force. You have to find motivation within to keep trying when things are not going the way you hoped for.
It's as if the house caught fire in the middle of the night. You fought every obstacle that was presented to overcome the smoke and heat and darkness and you rescued your family. Everyone stands on the front lawn, grateful for the chance to move forward in life. The fire department has put out the fire and the insurance adjuster has made his investigation. You even have the check you need to begin rebuilding in hand.
But you still stand in front of a burned out mess, the smell of ashes, smoke and destruction filling your nostrils with burning pain and grief.
To make matters worse, you both have injuries that have to be healed as the rebuilding begins.
There are three parts to the healing process here. First is that you each have to heal. You have to both work through the emotional wreckage, find what is still usable and what needs to be thrown out and discover new motivations to even get up in the morning. Until withdrawal is complete, your wife will not be even really working on this phase. Sorry to break that to you like that, but it means she will still be trying to minimize what has happened for a while. She's just realizing she is the one who set the fire and she did it on purpose.
The second part is to heal together as a couple. This phase can last longer than the first, but it is now that you begin to come back together and sooth each other's wounds, show care for each other and begin to seek each other out for comfort.
The third phase is working to build a new and better marriage. It is NOW that you start tweaking and sharing goals, ENs and fine tuning the relationship to mold it into one that can make both of you happy. Unfortunately, you can't bypass any steps or move on to the next before the previous is complete.
In context of the burned out house analogy, recovery begins with each getting checked out at the hospital and resting and recovering from the ordeal and giving time to your body to recover from the injuries you got when escaping the fire.
The second phase will be as you pick through the rubble, examining each piece of the relationship to see what still works and what needs to be eliminated. You will only be able to really start this process once you are both able to work on it and though you are both willing, only after you have each healed enough to tackle the hard stuff will you reach the second phase.
The third phase in the analogy comes when you start building the new house. You might need an architect along the way (Jennifer) and you need to decide on what will go into the new house (ENs, LBs, habits, likes, dislikes...)and you need to be sure the foundation is sufficient to hold up the load of what you are building (Understanding the LB$ model, making it part of you, learning to meet ENs and avoid Love Busters etc.)
Even when all of these pieces have fallen into place, you aren't ready to move into the new house because you still have to do the work to build it. And even once you live there, the work doesn't stop since you have to keep up the house or it will fall into disrepair and be another fire waiting to happen.
Three phases...
* Personal and individual healing
* Healing together as a couple
* Negotiating a new and better relationship
And then the hard work of making it reality begins.
Mark
Stillstanding2 -"There are no sure things" - 08/10/10 01:30 PM
Stillstanding2 wrote this as she makes a BIG BOLD move (literally and figuratively)
Link to original post by Stillstanding2
Quote
There are no sure things.
Guard what you value you most - always.
Stand up for yourself early. Don't put up with nonsense just to keep the peace.
Always listen to your gut. Your gut is on your side.
Don't take time or people for granted.
The bad times do get better - slowly.
I am so much stronger than I thought.
I am much more self-sufficient than I thought.
I can fall flat on my face and get back up and try again and be okay. It is even ok to stay down for a minute and catch my breath before I stand back up again. Lol.
It is okay to accept help if you need it.
You can love somebody with all your heart, watch them walk away, and have peace (eventually). Life can even get better.
The only person that I can make change is myself.
Words and intentions are nothing without actions to back them up.
There are no little lies.
Guard what you value you most - always.
Stand up for yourself early. Don't put up with nonsense just to keep the peace.
Always listen to your gut. Your gut is on your side.
Don't take time or people for granted.
The bad times do get better - slowly.
I am so much stronger than I thought.
I am much more self-sufficient than I thought.
I can fall flat on my face and get back up and try again and be okay. It is even ok to stay down for a minute and catch my breath before I stand back up again. Lol.
It is okay to accept help if you need it.
You can love somebody with all your heart, watch them walk away, and have peace (eventually). Life can even get better.
The only person that I can make change is myself.
Words and intentions are nothing without actions to back them up.
There are no little lies.
Link to original post by Stillstanding2
Re: Notable Posts - 12/20/10 11:44 PM
A Christmas bump !
Maritalbliss @ 2 year recovery - 02/11/11 11:28 PM
Posted by Maritalbliss 02/10/11
LINK to original
Quote
I can't wax poetic and bring masses to emotional tears like Glove Oil's 2nd anniversary poetry :), but I wanted to mention a few things in my own way, if I might
Today is the second anniversary of the day my world burned into ashes at my feet. I really thought that was it, that day. I thought our M was over.
Well, it didn't end, and I found MB, and we're chugging along quite nicely, now. Yes, it was horrible, and the memory still is. But my FWH has more than earned his 'F.' And we both have learned a world of knowledge here on MB. I've stuck around to hopefully help others who are going through this terrible terrible act of devastation that is adultery. My way of trying to pay it forward, I guess.
Having said that, I want to post a couple of random thoughts as a Former (I like the sound of that ) Betrayed Spouse. They aren't original, you've probably read them here before. But they're also MY thoughts, MY reality, MY experience. Maybe you're lurking and you'll read this and it will resonate with you. Maybe you've been posting and need to see it again. Either way, my random thoughts for betrayed spouses:
Time goes very slowly when D-Day arrives. Healing begins very slowly. You may wonder if you are up for the challenge. You may consider that you are having a nervous breakdown. If that is the case, get medical attention right away. They say God never gives us more than we can handle. Read that sentence again: God never gives us more than we can handle. You'll notice that the word "alone" isn't at the end of that sentence. God (The Great Physician) gives us ways to get help when things become overwhelming. Seek help if you need it because God put it there for you.
You might quit eating and get skinnier than you should. Shove the food in there anyway. You need the nourishment.If you throw it up, wait a little bit and put some more in there, even if you don't feel hungry. I went 3 days without eating more than once, so don't count on your brain letting you know that it's time to eat. The trauma you're going through will kill your appetite.
Post here. The people on this forum are not professionals, but they are your peers and as such are uniquely qualified to know exactly what you're going through. This site is another tool God gave you. You didn't stumble over it by accident.
Read the articles here as well. And don't be afraid to consider counseling with the Harleys. I've spoken with them, and they're wonderful, down-to-earth people. I wish every couple who plans to marry could counsel with them before the Big Day. I think it would save a lot of heartache.
Get some sleep. You may need medical help for this as well. You need the rest so your brain can function. No rest makes it difficult to chart your path and properly advocate for yourself.
Allow yourself to be okay for trusting your partner 100% and then having that trust dashed. Then NEVER TRUST THEM COMPLETELY AGAIN. What were we thinking, trusting someone else 100%???
In the beginning I snooped about 24/7, using just about any spying tool I could think of. H knew it, and knew I needed that for my own sense of safety. I don't snoop as much now as I did then, but rest assured that any detective agency would love to have me on their staff. I'll spy on my H as often as I wish. That is my promise to myself. H knows that, as well, and welcomes the scrutiny now. He no longer has anything to hide. (And trust me, if he ever does again, I'll be the first to know this time. ) Don't feel guilty if you're snooping on your spouse!
I have phone records, notes, emails, timelines, etc. from the days of the affair. In the beginning I carried the phone records around with me most of my waking hours, creating timelines. Don't feel crazy if you are doing this. And don't let a foggy spouse pooh-pooh your need to do this, even after they've come clean with every minute detail of the affair. The day will come when you are satisfied that you have all of your answers, and you won't need to do that anymore. That's when you'll quit.
I never met the OW. In the beginning I intended to track her down and beat the living [censored] out of her. I fantasized about pulling her hair out and then taking it to my H to see if he still wanted to stroke it. I never acted upon that, and I'm glad I didn't. Nothing positive would have come from it.
I physically struck my H and left bruises. More than once. You must not succumb to the temptation to do this! I substituted a pillow for my H and pounded the pulp out of it until my rage subsided. Do that instead. I am sick to this day that I allowed my rage to cause me to physically harm another human, regardless of what they did to me.
Understand that it DOES get better. Like I said in the beginning, Time is your enemy. It can't move fast enough. I would have sold my soul to the devil if it would have meant I could fast-forward through the devastation I was going through. Time will become your friend. I promise you that.
Okay, that's more than "a few things" sorry! But I hope even one thing I've posted helps someone out there who is newly devastated and trying to pick their way through the rubble.
Today is the second anniversary of the day my world burned into ashes at my feet. I really thought that was it, that day. I thought our M was over.
Well, it didn't end, and I found MB, and we're chugging along quite nicely, now. Yes, it was horrible, and the memory still is. But my FWH has more than earned his 'F.' And we both have learned a world of knowledge here on MB. I've stuck around to hopefully help others who are going through this terrible terrible act of devastation that is adultery. My way of trying to pay it forward, I guess.
Having said that, I want to post a couple of random thoughts as a Former (I like the sound of that ) Betrayed Spouse. They aren't original, you've probably read them here before. But they're also MY thoughts, MY reality, MY experience. Maybe you're lurking and you'll read this and it will resonate with you. Maybe you've been posting and need to see it again. Either way, my random thoughts for betrayed spouses:
Time goes very slowly when D-Day arrives. Healing begins very slowly. You may wonder if you are up for the challenge. You may consider that you are having a nervous breakdown. If that is the case, get medical attention right away. They say God never gives us more than we can handle. Read that sentence again: God never gives us more than we can handle. You'll notice that the word "alone" isn't at the end of that sentence. God (The Great Physician) gives us ways to get help when things become overwhelming. Seek help if you need it because God put it there for you.
You might quit eating and get skinnier than you should. Shove the food in there anyway. You need the nourishment.If you throw it up, wait a little bit and put some more in there, even if you don't feel hungry. I went 3 days without eating more than once, so don't count on your brain letting you know that it's time to eat. The trauma you're going through will kill your appetite.
Post here. The people on this forum are not professionals, but they are your peers and as such are uniquely qualified to know exactly what you're going through. This site is another tool God gave you. You didn't stumble over it by accident.
Read the articles here as well. And don't be afraid to consider counseling with the Harleys. I've spoken with them, and they're wonderful, down-to-earth people. I wish every couple who plans to marry could counsel with them before the Big Day. I think it would save a lot of heartache.
Get some sleep. You may need medical help for this as well. You need the rest so your brain can function. No rest makes it difficult to chart your path and properly advocate for yourself.
Allow yourself to be okay for trusting your partner 100% and then having that trust dashed. Then NEVER TRUST THEM COMPLETELY AGAIN. What were we thinking, trusting someone else 100%???
In the beginning I snooped about 24/7, using just about any spying tool I could think of. H knew it, and knew I needed that for my own sense of safety. I don't snoop as much now as I did then, but rest assured that any detective agency would love to have me on their staff. I'll spy on my H as often as I wish. That is my promise to myself. H knows that, as well, and welcomes the scrutiny now. He no longer has anything to hide. (And trust me, if he ever does again, I'll be the first to know this time. ) Don't feel guilty if you're snooping on your spouse!
I have phone records, notes, emails, timelines, etc. from the days of the affair. In the beginning I carried the phone records around with me most of my waking hours, creating timelines. Don't feel crazy if you are doing this. And don't let a foggy spouse pooh-pooh your need to do this, even after they've come clean with every minute detail of the affair. The day will come when you are satisfied that you have all of your answers, and you won't need to do that anymore. That's when you'll quit.
I never met the OW. In the beginning I intended to track her down and beat the living [censored] out of her. I fantasized about pulling her hair out and then taking it to my H to see if he still wanted to stroke it. I never acted upon that, and I'm glad I didn't. Nothing positive would have come from it.
I physically struck my H and left bruises. More than once. You must not succumb to the temptation to do this! I substituted a pillow for my H and pounded the pulp out of it until my rage subsided. Do that instead. I am sick to this day that I allowed my rage to cause me to physically harm another human, regardless of what they did to me.
Understand that it DOES get better. Like I said in the beginning, Time is your enemy. It can't move fast enough. I would have sold my soul to the devil if it would have meant I could fast-forward through the devastation I was going through. Time will become your friend. I promise you that.
Okay, that's more than "a few things" sorry! But I hope even one thing I've posted helps someone out there who is newly devastated and trying to pick their way through the rubble.
Re: Maritalbliss @ 2 year recovery - 02/12/11 03:09 AM
Delta writes MB radio & gets results ! - 02/26/11 03:41 PM
What do you do when the child(ren) of marriage carry resentments toward their wayward parent?
Please read the following by MB'er Delta:
LINK*** to original thread
Please read the following by MB'er Delta:
Originally Posted by Delta
Hi Joyce. You may remember taking my call on MB Radio a couple months ago regarding my husband's affair with my sister. You mentioned that I could follow up with you and Dr. Harley, so I'm taking you up on your offer.
Our 15yo daughter continues to have a lot of pain and anger toward her dad about the affair, and I'm wondering if you could suggest a book or resource that might help her work through it. We took her to a family counselor, but -- as expected -- that didn't help because our daughter basically felt that she was told to get over it.
Everybody seems so eager for victims of adultery to forgive and move on so quickly like nothing ever happened, including her cousins (the teenage children of my sister / other woman). They seemed to be basically unaffected even the day they were told about the affair, which makes our daughter feel even worse ... how can it affect her so much and affect them so little? It makes her feel that there's something wrong with her.
Her dad and I have acknowledged her pain and have assured her that it's normal to be upset because the affair was indeed so horrible. He has written her a letter of apology and has expressed his sorrow and remorse several times. She is pleasant to him but tells me that she would prefer not even be around him and that she's lost all respect for him. She has a lot of resentment about what he did to me, her and her brother, our family and the distance it will permanently cause between her and her cousins.
I still have pain and upset but feel that I'm in the process of healing with my husband while I think our daughter is stuck in the resentment stage.
I thought about having her read parts of Surviving An Affair, but perhaps there's another resources that's better suited to her pain as a child.
Can you share some wisdom?
Thanks,
Our 15yo daughter continues to have a lot of pain and anger toward her dad about the affair, and I'm wondering if you could suggest a book or resource that might help her work through it. We took her to a family counselor, but -- as expected -- that didn't help because our daughter basically felt that she was told to get over it.
Everybody seems so eager for victims of adultery to forgive and move on so quickly like nothing ever happened, including her cousins (the teenage children of my sister / other woman). They seemed to be basically unaffected even the day they were told about the affair, which makes our daughter feel even worse ... how can it affect her so much and affect them so little? It makes her feel that there's something wrong with her.
Her dad and I have acknowledged her pain and have assured her that it's normal to be upset because the affair was indeed so horrible. He has written her a letter of apology and has expressed his sorrow and remorse several times. She is pleasant to him but tells me that she would prefer not even be around him and that she's lost all respect for him. She has a lot of resentment about what he did to me, her and her brother, our family and the distance it will permanently cause between her and her cousins.
I still have pain and upset but feel that I'm in the process of healing with my husband while I think our daughter is stuck in the resentment stage.
I thought about having her read parts of Surviving An Affair, but perhaps there's another resources that's better suited to her pain as a child.
Can you share some wisdom?
Thanks,
Originally Posted by Delta_
I'd like to remind everyone here about what a tremendous gift MB Radio is.
At no cost, you can email your question or concern to mbradio@marriagebuilders.com, and Dr. Harley and his wife, Joyce, will address your issue on air. Then you can follow up with Joyce and Dr. Harley through email afterward.
I've done this a couple times, most recently in regard to my daughter's continued resentment about her dad's A. (letter above)
Dr. Harley addressed the issue on air, followed up with an email exchange, offered to speak to our daughter privately, and then spoke to my H and I afterward. This has helped a great deal, and our daughter will continue to speak to Dr. Harley on the phone to hopefully help her work out some things.
I'm so very grateful for this entire organization!
At no cost, you can email your question or concern to mbradio@marriagebuilders.com, and Dr. Harley and his wife, Joyce, will address your issue on air. Then you can follow up with Joyce and Dr. Harley through email afterward.
I've done this a couple times, most recently in regard to my daughter's continued resentment about her dad's A. (letter above)
Dr. Harley addressed the issue on air, followed up with an email exchange, offered to speak to our daughter privately, and then spoke to my H and I afterward. This has helped a great deal, and our daughter will continue to speak to Dr. Harley on the phone to hopefully help her work out some things.
I'm so very grateful for this entire organization!
Bob Pure - The "crazy cycle" - 03/02/11 03:39 PM
PLEASE click the link to the original post where the visual aids can be seen.
*** LINK *** to Bob Pure's original post
Quote
Hey GH
I spent six years in the state you describe. Doing okay a lot of the time, then Squid would do something crass and I would immediately feel mugged that I stayed married to this harpie and withdraw. Squid would sigh and expect the worst. What a rubbish cycle.
What changed for us is I found out about the love and respect cycle.
I was instinctively hypersensitive to criticism and disrespect from Squid which I received as contempt. That would make me withdraw which Squid received as alack of love for her. Which would make her criticise me for "sulking". Which would make me regret that I never separated the pensions... which....
We talked about it. Squid feels that is absolutely fine to criticize me where I could improve my behaviour or husbandry. But our circumstances made me feel contempted and hateful.
I learned that I needed to take the lead and invest unconditional love into Squid. Her response was to respond with respect which reversed that poison cycle.
And that for the last year has laid a foundation of love and respect in our marriage that has allowed MB principles to take root. I feel respected and appreciated. Its easy to love a woman that does that.
I won't say I have no dark times, GH31, but 90% of the time I am too content to bother looking back at buried hurts.
I use this process in my marriage ministry and it seems to be very effective there too. Hope this helps buddy.
I spent six years in the state you describe. Doing okay a lot of the time, then Squid would do something crass and I would immediately feel mugged that I stayed married to this harpie and withdraw. Squid would sigh and expect the worst. What a rubbish cycle.
What changed for us is I found out about the love and respect cycle.
I was instinctively hypersensitive to criticism and disrespect from Squid which I received as contempt. That would make me withdraw which Squid received as alack of love for her. Which would make her criticise me for "sulking". Which would make me regret that I never separated the pensions... which....
We talked about it. Squid feels that is absolutely fine to criticize me where I could improve my behaviour or husbandry. But our circumstances made me feel contempted and hateful.
I learned that I needed to take the lead and invest unconditional love into Squid. Her response was to respond with respect which reversed that poison cycle.
And that for the last year has laid a foundation of love and respect in our marriage that has allowed MB principles to take root. I feel respected and appreciated. Its easy to love a woman that does that.
I won't say I have no dark times, GH31, but 90% of the time I am too content to bother looking back at buried hurts.
I use this process in my marriage ministry and it seems to be very effective there too. Hope this helps buddy.
*** LINK *** to Bob Pure's original post
GloveOil- D day 2009 - OWH's snooping wins! - 04/21/11 09:04 PM
Original thread by GloveOil *** here ***
"He�d hired a private investigator. Keyloggers, in-home wiretap, the whole schemer."
Snooping = discovery of truth = chance of recovery !
Even if the other betrayed spouse did the snooping ...
"He�d hired a private investigator. Keyloggers, in-home wiretap, the whole schemer."
Quote
Typical Virginia winter� gray/brown, damp, too warm to snow, but too cold to leave your coat unbuttoned. It was a Wednesday.
It was an ordinary morning for me. But my �ordinary� had changed. Over the past few weeks, it had become pretty ordinary on most days for me to get a voice-mail or phone call at around the time I got to the office or shortly thereafter. She was a stay-at-home mom, and she often liked to call me once her husband had left for work.
This day, I got to the office a few minutes late, and saw that I�d missed a call from her. Sometimes she left a voice-mail, sometimes not. This time, she didn�t. Uneasy as I was at fleeting times with the whole sordid thing, I was usually happy for the diversion of conversation with her, but this day I had work to do, stuff piled up from the holidays, and an overseas trip looming in under 3 weeks.
So I didn�t call her back like I often did. We�d spent a lot of time together the previous week, and meanwhile, things weren�t going well for her at home. She and her husband had gotten into another fight on Sunday morning before church. Or maybe Saturday night � I�m not sure I got the whole story from her.
I�d told her we ought to let things go cold for a spell, because she kept getting uneasy feelings that her husband might be onto something. Maybe we should cool it for a few weeks � even break it off if we had to (after all, we were adults; we could quit any time, right?); but we could leave it open-ended, keep our options open.
But every time she sensed me getting cold feet, she�d call back in a day or so to say that things were better at home, that the suspicions she�d voiced earlier now seemed unfounded and he seemed oblivious. Which was certainly what I wanted to hear. I�d told her weeks earlier that I wasn�t into breaking up anyone�s family � mine nor hers. (I somehow convinced myself that there was a smidge of decency in that nuanced stance. Oh, my God, that�s how far gone I was!)
Sunday night, she�d left a reassuring voice-mail on my cell, saying that things were smoothed over. Monday we�d chatted and she wasn�t as sanguine -- she talked again about feeling trapped in her marriage and about wanting to consult with a lawyer, just to learn about her options. I felt a pang in my gut. Dammit, I�d gotten myself hooked. Again, I tried to buck her up, to encourage her to smooth things over with him, because if she were to get divorced, well, she�d be free, and that�d mean she wouldn�t be satisfied any longer with a part-timer like me. Here I was, a married, 41-year-old father of two, and I was afraid of getting dumped by my affair partner because it would hurt! This couldn�t get any more f*d up, so why not just keep riding the merry-go-round and see what happens, I must�ve thought. Or something inane to that effect.
So we weren�t sure where it would lead, but I wanted to believe that nothing was pressing us to decide. So thought I. I was happy to keep having my cake & saving it too.
Around 9:30am, she called back. �I need to talk to you.� I said I was busy and asked if I could call her back later, but she seemed anxious and said she wanted to see me that morning. I couldn�t; I had a meeting at 11:00 and a lot of work to do. I demurred, but she was weirdly insistent, even for her. �Just tell me what�s up,� I said. No, she wanted to see me, not talk about it over the phone, whatever "it" was. She was starting to sound kind of desperate. Finally she gave up and whispered: �[He] knows.�
Her husband, that is.
�About what? The e-mails, the phone calls? Or everything?�
We�d been somewhat discreet in our e-mails, until the last few days when she�d gotten a little sloppy. For a final couple of seconds, I tried to console myself with the optimism that it could all be explained away as something less than what it was. That we could somehow tie it all to the time we�d spent (and there had been quite a bit of it) practicing and talking about music together.
�Everything.�
My world stopped.
We talked a few minutes more, as she explained how he knew. I relented and told her to come downtown; she�d be in on the subway in about an hour and 15 minutes. The next few minutes were a blur. I closed my office door, sat at my desk and held my head in my hands. I couldn�t believe this was actually happening. And I�d brought it all upon myself.
He�d hired a private investigator. Keyloggers, in-home wiretap, the whole schmear. I knew she�d given him ample reason already� her leaky alibis; the long-distance affair she�d carried on with her ex-BF from Florida, from which she segued into chasing me. Being clumsy when closing out her browser windows while we were IM�ing. Always wanting to stay past the times we�d agreed upon, so that she�d get home late. Her husband would call, asking where she was, and I�d stand there and listen in silence, while she made up some lie about being out shopping and getting stuck in traffic, and there being some kind of accident at the intersection up ahead, etc. And God knows what suspicious behavior she�d done that I didn�t even know about. The previous evening, Tuesday, he'd confronted her.
I had to tell my wife. OW had begged me not to. She wanted to see me, to make her pitch face-to-face. But even as stupid as I was, I knew it was played-out, and finally had to end now. I knew I had to make a call � it couldn�t wait another minute.
Somewhere during this, there seemed a flitting sensation of relief. But it was the relief of jumping off a height in complete darkness... no longer being stuck up there, but having no idea whether anything was going to catch me, or whether it would be far preferable if nothing did.
I moved the phone closer so my shaking arms could make my fingers hit the numbers. I felt like I was hovering above the room, watching myself, or watching someone else.
_________________________
I reached her at the hospital, where she was about three hours into her day-shift. Just an ordinary day for her. Probably just an ordinary phone call. I said �I need to talk to you.�
And there, over the phone, I sucker-punched her right in the stomach. Told her I�d gotten mixed up in something awful, that I'd been in an affair. She hesitated, then asked �With who?� And before she could even catch her breath, I told her --which is to say, I punched her right in the face, the girl whom I�d sworn to cherish and honor.
I tried to tell her that I'd chosen her, not OW. (Thinking to myself, Way to go, GloveOil, you worthless jerk... Where was your choosiness back in October when this all started?) I don�t remember what else, other than begging for forgiveness and saying I was so sorry. Over the phone, I could hear her laboring just to breathe. She said she had to go, and hung up. I felt so totally alone in all the world. At the time, I was still all about me, and I probably didn�t even try to imagine what she must�ve felt -- the woman to whom I�d promised �forever.�
And her world had turned upside down.
I can never get to the center of that pain of hers. In truth, I never want to. Many of you have felt it firsthand and know better than I what I�m talking about.
I started to pray, but I caught myself. Who was I kidding, that God would give me the time of day? I�d spent the previous two months' Sunday mornings singing songs praising Him, while standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Guess Who, with both of our spouses out there in the congregation, both of us together there among the music team, getting deeper into trouble all the while, willfully ignoring the unimaginable hypocrisy of it all, and stupefyingly persuading ourselves that the truth would not out.
I got someone to take my meeting, and told my boss I had an emergency at home and needed to leave for the day. OW arrived downtown and we met in the subway station and sobbed with no dignity. We composed ourselves a little and she wanted us to find a caf� or a park bench to talk, but I said I had to go home. I told her I intended to beg for my wife�s forgiveness, beg her to keep me. She got angry when I told her I'd already called TWC -- she�d begged me not to tell my wife. She actually thought she could persuade her husband �not to make things messy� � she had a college degree, but her stupid brain was still feebly trying to find some way to keep the door open for our affair. On the train back to the suburbs, she was all crying, and begged me to run away together with her, and said we could make each other so happy. I was numb. I knew I couldn�t be happy without TWC and our family. And what about OW�s own daughter? Did she mean to run away from her child, too? How could she think that we could be happy?
I took advantage of her one last time, not in the awful way, but for transportation�I asked her to give me a ride from the subway station to the feeder bus lot where my car was parked. And I went home to wait for TWC to come home from the hospital.
It was January 7, 2009.
_________________________
I�ve never put all this out here before. I didn�t show up here on MB until 8 months after d-day. In the interim, TWC and I got lucky with the first marriage counselor I tracked down, from a list our pastor had sent me. The MC insisted that we get �Surviving An Affair,� and it became our text. She helped mediate our conversations. She gave us practical homework. She got me to shut up and listen when I should listen, and she got me to talk to my wife calmly.
This post is not our recovery story. Elements of that story, and lessons we learned, and which we hope may be of some benefit or caution to others, are elsewhere here & there, scattered among our 600-some posts. My first couple months� worth of posts were lost because of the October 2009 server crash. We�d done better than OK by August 2009, but there was still some stuff in there that makes me cringe, and still a lot of stuff in my head that I didn�t feel I was getting anywhere with. Mostly, I had only circled around, but hadn�t gotten to the core of, how selfish I�d been.
So I am glad for the 2x4s that I got back then. I am grateful for the people who kept me focused on TWC�s feelings. I�m grateful for LousyGolfer and HPB (tst) who gave me some sort of advice that I must�ve followed � they�ve given the same advice to others. I�m grateful to Tawandabelle for her words of compassion, and to MelodyLane, who explained that guilt could actually be my friend � that was a minor epiphany for me. I�m grateful for Mark1952�s wonderfully articulate and carefully thought-out advice on memories and triggers. I�m grateful for some lady whose screen name I can�t even remember, but who sat up typing a long message (well, not as long as this one!) even though she was on painkillers and was typing with a broken shoulder, to root for me and my wife and to point out where she thought I still sounded foggy. I�m even grateful in some weird way to a couple of posters whom I won�t even call out, as just about everything they posted to me was so rude, unconstructive and/or downright profane that it got edited out by the mods; in their own way, unintentionally, they helped me see just how deep a BS�s pain can be, and how it can change people if a WS doesn�t go all-in on trying to make amends. And that was all in the first 10 days or so, months before I got up the nerve to bring TWC around to the site for the first time. (And she got a little upset with me at first then, because she saw this little posting habit, which I�d just revealed to her, as being Independent Behavior -- before she dipped her toes in and saw what you all were about.)
A lot of my recounting of that awful day two years ago is from the only standpoint that I can recall it from, which is my own. But I know it wasn�t about me. I know I can never get to the center of that pain which I caused.
I haven�t spoken of OW�s husband, who deserves more and better than these few words. I�d known him and OW for over two years before OW and I ever started to slide into our improper friendship, but I didn�t know him well � hardly at all, actually. I�d thought him rather reserved, ill-at-ease in casual conversation, shy perhaps, but we might�ve been friends. He was good at his job, polite and mild-mannered, well-dressed, well-spoken, and had never had an unkind word for me. If there were any defect in his character or conduct � she claimed he drank and was a workaholic and neglectful (and I now know that I can place little credence on anything she said) � in retrospect I�ll say no one could blame him, for look what he was living with! I have never apologized to him, except through our pastor in the weeks immediately afterwards. The vast preponderance of advice I�ve since read on the matter says that any benefit of apology from an OP to a BS is outweighed by the dredged-up pain of contact with the OP, and that no apology will be seen as sincere, and thus that while a (F)WS must be willing to offer an apology, he/she should not be so inconsiderate as to actually convey one, especially after this much time has passed. But if I should live to be 500 years old, I will never be so sorry for anything, aside from how I hurt my wife, as I am for how I must�ve hurt him.
They separated, and were divorced 11 months ago.
_________________________
In some way, it feels as though TWC and I have been through a war. In history books, it�s said that wars have winners, insofar as countries or causes are �winners.� However, the memoirs of soldiers who fight wars, or civilians who live through them, say that wars have no winners at the level of the individual. Yes, those on the �winning� side are glad to have "won", because they know the alternative would have been even worse; but they think of the loss and the pain bound up in it all, and it leads them to quiet tears, not cheering and confetti. The soldiers, and the innocent civilians, too, just tell of simple gratitude for having lived through what others did not survive, and they tell of being mystified as to why they were chosen to live while others didn�t make it. That�s kind of how I feel today. (Except for having and deserving none whatsoever of the honor which nations attach to their soldiers, and for deserving quite the opposite of honor.) Mostly, I�m just grateful, and couldn�t be otherwise. All these MB principles are worth their weight in gold, but unless TWC had seen her way to forgive me, I�d be out on my [censored], alright. That forgiveness is a mystery I may not ever get my arms & brain all the way around, but I�ll take it.
This morning, my wife e-mailed me this:
�Hello, my love. It's January 7th and it's just another day: no sadness, no triggers, just a day when I am in love with my husband and so very thankful for him in my life.�
Can you believe that? Just an ordinary day.
I don't deserve it, but you bet I'll take it.
It was an ordinary morning for me. But my �ordinary� had changed. Over the past few weeks, it had become pretty ordinary on most days for me to get a voice-mail or phone call at around the time I got to the office or shortly thereafter. She was a stay-at-home mom, and she often liked to call me once her husband had left for work.
This day, I got to the office a few minutes late, and saw that I�d missed a call from her. Sometimes she left a voice-mail, sometimes not. This time, she didn�t. Uneasy as I was at fleeting times with the whole sordid thing, I was usually happy for the diversion of conversation with her, but this day I had work to do, stuff piled up from the holidays, and an overseas trip looming in under 3 weeks.
So I didn�t call her back like I often did. We�d spent a lot of time together the previous week, and meanwhile, things weren�t going well for her at home. She and her husband had gotten into another fight on Sunday morning before church. Or maybe Saturday night � I�m not sure I got the whole story from her.
I�d told her we ought to let things go cold for a spell, because she kept getting uneasy feelings that her husband might be onto something. Maybe we should cool it for a few weeks � even break it off if we had to (after all, we were adults; we could quit any time, right?); but we could leave it open-ended, keep our options open.
But every time she sensed me getting cold feet, she�d call back in a day or so to say that things were better at home, that the suspicions she�d voiced earlier now seemed unfounded and he seemed oblivious. Which was certainly what I wanted to hear. I�d told her weeks earlier that I wasn�t into breaking up anyone�s family � mine nor hers. (I somehow convinced myself that there was a smidge of decency in that nuanced stance. Oh, my God, that�s how far gone I was!)
Sunday night, she�d left a reassuring voice-mail on my cell, saying that things were smoothed over. Monday we�d chatted and she wasn�t as sanguine -- she talked again about feeling trapped in her marriage and about wanting to consult with a lawyer, just to learn about her options. I felt a pang in my gut. Dammit, I�d gotten myself hooked. Again, I tried to buck her up, to encourage her to smooth things over with him, because if she were to get divorced, well, she�d be free, and that�d mean she wouldn�t be satisfied any longer with a part-timer like me. Here I was, a married, 41-year-old father of two, and I was afraid of getting dumped by my affair partner because it would hurt! This couldn�t get any more f*d up, so why not just keep riding the merry-go-round and see what happens, I must�ve thought. Or something inane to that effect.
So we weren�t sure where it would lead, but I wanted to believe that nothing was pressing us to decide. So thought I. I was happy to keep having my cake & saving it too.
Around 9:30am, she called back. �I need to talk to you.� I said I was busy and asked if I could call her back later, but she seemed anxious and said she wanted to see me that morning. I couldn�t; I had a meeting at 11:00 and a lot of work to do. I demurred, but she was weirdly insistent, even for her. �Just tell me what�s up,� I said. No, she wanted to see me, not talk about it over the phone, whatever "it" was. She was starting to sound kind of desperate. Finally she gave up and whispered: �[He] knows.�
Her husband, that is.
�About what? The e-mails, the phone calls? Or everything?�
We�d been somewhat discreet in our e-mails, until the last few days when she�d gotten a little sloppy. For a final couple of seconds, I tried to console myself with the optimism that it could all be explained away as something less than what it was. That we could somehow tie it all to the time we�d spent (and there had been quite a bit of it) practicing and talking about music together.
�Everything.�
My world stopped.
We talked a few minutes more, as she explained how he knew. I relented and told her to come downtown; she�d be in on the subway in about an hour and 15 minutes. The next few minutes were a blur. I closed my office door, sat at my desk and held my head in my hands. I couldn�t believe this was actually happening. And I�d brought it all upon myself.
He�d hired a private investigator. Keyloggers, in-home wiretap, the whole schmear. I knew she�d given him ample reason already� her leaky alibis; the long-distance affair she�d carried on with her ex-BF from Florida, from which she segued into chasing me. Being clumsy when closing out her browser windows while we were IM�ing. Always wanting to stay past the times we�d agreed upon, so that she�d get home late. Her husband would call, asking where she was, and I�d stand there and listen in silence, while she made up some lie about being out shopping and getting stuck in traffic, and there being some kind of accident at the intersection up ahead, etc. And God knows what suspicious behavior she�d done that I didn�t even know about. The previous evening, Tuesday, he'd confronted her.
I had to tell my wife. OW had begged me not to. She wanted to see me, to make her pitch face-to-face. But even as stupid as I was, I knew it was played-out, and finally had to end now. I knew I had to make a call � it couldn�t wait another minute.
Somewhere during this, there seemed a flitting sensation of relief. But it was the relief of jumping off a height in complete darkness... no longer being stuck up there, but having no idea whether anything was going to catch me, or whether it would be far preferable if nothing did.
I moved the phone closer so my shaking arms could make my fingers hit the numbers. I felt like I was hovering above the room, watching myself, or watching someone else.
_________________________
I reached her at the hospital, where she was about three hours into her day-shift. Just an ordinary day for her. Probably just an ordinary phone call. I said �I need to talk to you.�
And there, over the phone, I sucker-punched her right in the stomach. Told her I�d gotten mixed up in something awful, that I'd been in an affair. She hesitated, then asked �With who?� And before she could even catch her breath, I told her --which is to say, I punched her right in the face, the girl whom I�d sworn to cherish and honor.
I tried to tell her that I'd chosen her, not OW. (Thinking to myself, Way to go, GloveOil, you worthless jerk... Where was your choosiness back in October when this all started?) I don�t remember what else, other than begging for forgiveness and saying I was so sorry. Over the phone, I could hear her laboring just to breathe. She said she had to go, and hung up. I felt so totally alone in all the world. At the time, I was still all about me, and I probably didn�t even try to imagine what she must�ve felt -- the woman to whom I�d promised �forever.�
And her world had turned upside down.
I can never get to the center of that pain of hers. In truth, I never want to. Many of you have felt it firsthand and know better than I what I�m talking about.
I started to pray, but I caught myself. Who was I kidding, that God would give me the time of day? I�d spent the previous two months' Sunday mornings singing songs praising Him, while standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Guess Who, with both of our spouses out there in the congregation, both of us together there among the music team, getting deeper into trouble all the while, willfully ignoring the unimaginable hypocrisy of it all, and stupefyingly persuading ourselves that the truth would not out.
I got someone to take my meeting, and told my boss I had an emergency at home and needed to leave for the day. OW arrived downtown and we met in the subway station and sobbed with no dignity. We composed ourselves a little and she wanted us to find a caf� or a park bench to talk, but I said I had to go home. I told her I intended to beg for my wife�s forgiveness, beg her to keep me. She got angry when I told her I'd already called TWC -- she�d begged me not to tell my wife. She actually thought she could persuade her husband �not to make things messy� � she had a college degree, but her stupid brain was still feebly trying to find some way to keep the door open for our affair. On the train back to the suburbs, she was all crying, and begged me to run away together with her, and said we could make each other so happy. I was numb. I knew I couldn�t be happy without TWC and our family. And what about OW�s own daughter? Did she mean to run away from her child, too? How could she think that we could be happy?
I took advantage of her one last time, not in the awful way, but for transportation�I asked her to give me a ride from the subway station to the feeder bus lot where my car was parked. And I went home to wait for TWC to come home from the hospital.
It was January 7, 2009.
_________________________
I�ve never put all this out here before. I didn�t show up here on MB until 8 months after d-day. In the interim, TWC and I got lucky with the first marriage counselor I tracked down, from a list our pastor had sent me. The MC insisted that we get �Surviving An Affair,� and it became our text. She helped mediate our conversations. She gave us practical homework. She got me to shut up and listen when I should listen, and she got me to talk to my wife calmly.
This post is not our recovery story. Elements of that story, and lessons we learned, and which we hope may be of some benefit or caution to others, are elsewhere here & there, scattered among our 600-some posts. My first couple months� worth of posts were lost because of the October 2009 server crash. We�d done better than OK by August 2009, but there was still some stuff in there that makes me cringe, and still a lot of stuff in my head that I didn�t feel I was getting anywhere with. Mostly, I had only circled around, but hadn�t gotten to the core of, how selfish I�d been.
So I am glad for the 2x4s that I got back then. I am grateful for the people who kept me focused on TWC�s feelings. I�m grateful for LousyGolfer and HPB (tst) who gave me some sort of advice that I must�ve followed � they�ve given the same advice to others. I�m grateful to Tawandabelle for her words of compassion, and to MelodyLane, who explained that guilt could actually be my friend � that was a minor epiphany for me. I�m grateful for Mark1952�s wonderfully articulate and carefully thought-out advice on memories and triggers. I�m grateful for some lady whose screen name I can�t even remember, but who sat up typing a long message (well, not as long as this one!) even though she was on painkillers and was typing with a broken shoulder, to root for me and my wife and to point out where she thought I still sounded foggy. I�m even grateful in some weird way to a couple of posters whom I won�t even call out, as just about everything they posted to me was so rude, unconstructive and/or downright profane that it got edited out by the mods; in their own way, unintentionally, they helped me see just how deep a BS�s pain can be, and how it can change people if a WS doesn�t go all-in on trying to make amends. And that was all in the first 10 days or so, months before I got up the nerve to bring TWC around to the site for the first time. (And she got a little upset with me at first then, because she saw this little posting habit, which I�d just revealed to her, as being Independent Behavior -- before she dipped her toes in and saw what you all were about.)
A lot of my recounting of that awful day two years ago is from the only standpoint that I can recall it from, which is my own. But I know it wasn�t about me. I know I can never get to the center of that pain which I caused.
I haven�t spoken of OW�s husband, who deserves more and better than these few words. I�d known him and OW for over two years before OW and I ever started to slide into our improper friendship, but I didn�t know him well � hardly at all, actually. I�d thought him rather reserved, ill-at-ease in casual conversation, shy perhaps, but we might�ve been friends. He was good at his job, polite and mild-mannered, well-dressed, well-spoken, and had never had an unkind word for me. If there were any defect in his character or conduct � she claimed he drank and was a workaholic and neglectful (and I now know that I can place little credence on anything she said) � in retrospect I�ll say no one could blame him, for look what he was living with! I have never apologized to him, except through our pastor in the weeks immediately afterwards. The vast preponderance of advice I�ve since read on the matter says that any benefit of apology from an OP to a BS is outweighed by the dredged-up pain of contact with the OP, and that no apology will be seen as sincere, and thus that while a (F)WS must be willing to offer an apology, he/she should not be so inconsiderate as to actually convey one, especially after this much time has passed. But if I should live to be 500 years old, I will never be so sorry for anything, aside from how I hurt my wife, as I am for how I must�ve hurt him.
They separated, and were divorced 11 months ago.
_________________________
In some way, it feels as though TWC and I have been through a war. In history books, it�s said that wars have winners, insofar as countries or causes are �winners.� However, the memoirs of soldiers who fight wars, or civilians who live through them, say that wars have no winners at the level of the individual. Yes, those on the �winning� side are glad to have "won", because they know the alternative would have been even worse; but they think of the loss and the pain bound up in it all, and it leads them to quiet tears, not cheering and confetti. The soldiers, and the innocent civilians, too, just tell of simple gratitude for having lived through what others did not survive, and they tell of being mystified as to why they were chosen to live while others didn�t make it. That�s kind of how I feel today. (Except for having and deserving none whatsoever of the honor which nations attach to their soldiers, and for deserving quite the opposite of honor.) Mostly, I�m just grateful, and couldn�t be otherwise. All these MB principles are worth their weight in gold, but unless TWC had seen her way to forgive me, I�d be out on my [censored], alright. That forgiveness is a mystery I may not ever get my arms & brain all the way around, but I�ll take it.
This morning, my wife e-mailed me this:
�Hello, my love. It's January 7th and it's just another day: no sadness, no triggers, just a day when I am in love with my husband and so very thankful for him in my life.�
Can you believe that? Just an ordinary day.
I don't deserve it, but you bet I'll take it.
Snooping = discovery of truth = chance of recovery !
Even if the other betrayed spouse did the snooping ...
HHH: "moving towards recovery" - 06/03/11 02:03 PM
Encouraging words about the difficulties of marriage recovery.
"The solution is to remain vigilant in your new MB-led lifestyle - keep up UA, KEEP UP RH, keep up PoJA."
*** LINK *** to original
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Dad, I can't give you timing or anything like that, but I can give you an idea of what to expect.
The hardest part of the fight is now over. The A has ended, and you are moving towards recovery. As Pep would say; it's a direction not a destination. If you are a man of faith, consider it like securing your spot in heaven; the things you have learned must be adhered to for the rest of your life - you will fail sometimes, but then you have to get back on the path.
So, with the hardest part of the journey out of the way, you will now embark on the longest part of the journey.
The first leg is tough. You are now going to be able to begin progressing through the grieving process. You cannot "get over it," go around it, go above it, slink under it. You have to go through it.
If I get some time this weekend, I'll dig up some stuff on grieving so that you can reflect on that and make sense of some of this part of the roller coaster.
The roller coaster of recovery along with the roller coaster of grief is a wild ride.
6 months, a year... however long it takes, eventually you will sort it out and come out of grieving. However, you will still be on the coaster.
Chin up, though! Without the complication of grief, the recovery coaster is a tad more mild. Like a "mad mouse" coaster versus a super-coaster.
The solution is to remain vigilant in your new MB-led lifestyle - keep up UA, KEEP UP RH, keep up PoJA.
At times, you are going to retract, you are going to hit these moments of pain, anger, bitterness... you are going to get indifferent, or want to withdraw.
Fight that.
In those moments, imagine yourself encased in in a protective shell - you are alone in the dark, and you are starving. You can see shafts of light shining through the cracks.
At these times, your FWW, and the way she has tried to pick up the rope and share the load, is going to be your life-saver.
Meeting your needs, EP's, RH on her part is going to be like tossing handfuls of rice at the shell to nourish you. Copious amounts will be lost. However, some grains will slip through the cracks, and that is what you will need to sustain yourself.
DO NOT ALLOW YOURSELF TO WITHDRAW.
The hardest part of the fight is now over. The A has ended, and you are moving towards recovery. As Pep would say; it's a direction not a destination. If you are a man of faith, consider it like securing your spot in heaven; the things you have learned must be adhered to for the rest of your life - you will fail sometimes, but then you have to get back on the path.
So, with the hardest part of the journey out of the way, you will now embark on the longest part of the journey.
The first leg is tough. You are now going to be able to begin progressing through the grieving process. You cannot "get over it," go around it, go above it, slink under it. You have to go through it.
If I get some time this weekend, I'll dig up some stuff on grieving so that you can reflect on that and make sense of some of this part of the roller coaster.
The roller coaster of recovery along with the roller coaster of grief is a wild ride.
6 months, a year... however long it takes, eventually you will sort it out and come out of grieving. However, you will still be on the coaster.
Chin up, though! Without the complication of grief, the recovery coaster is a tad more mild. Like a "mad mouse" coaster versus a super-coaster.
The solution is to remain vigilant in your new MB-led lifestyle - keep up UA, KEEP UP RH, keep up PoJA.
At times, you are going to retract, you are going to hit these moments of pain, anger, bitterness... you are going to get indifferent, or want to withdraw.
Fight that.
In those moments, imagine yourself encased in in a protective shell - you are alone in the dark, and you are starving. You can see shafts of light shining through the cracks.
At these times, your FWW, and the way she has tried to pick up the rope and share the load, is going to be your life-saver.
Meeting your needs, EP's, RH on her part is going to be like tossing handfuls of rice at the shell to nourish you. Copious amounts will be lost. However, some grains will slip through the cracks, and that is what you will need to sustain yourself.
DO NOT ALLOW YOURSELF TO WITHDRAW.
"The solution is to remain vigilant in your new MB-led lifestyle - keep up UA, KEEP UP RH, keep up PoJA."
*** LINK *** to original
Re: HHH: "moving towards recovery" - 06/17/11 01:17 PM
Dr. Pepperband tells many of us what is wrong with us, saving thousands of dollars in therapy and years of work on a shrink's couch:
here
The thing I like about this place is that I might learn how to grow up, here.
Originally Posted by Pepperband
I can help .....
You are selfish and self focused.
You are also lazy.
You are dishonest.
You prefer a quick fix.
OK. That's settled.
Now you know what is "wrong" with you.
SO WHAT?????
Is your life better?
Does your beautiful, shy, introverted wife feel better now that you have been properly labeled?
There is marriage work to do, and yet, you are selfishly determined to continue your self-absorbed navel gazing while your wife dies a death of a thousand cuts.
Stop being selfish and lazy.
Now, your "What's wrong with me"
.... whining is OVER & OUT.
RIGHT?
![[Linked Image from modernservantleader.com]](http://modernservantleader.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/No_Whining_Sign_400x300.jpg)
Quote
I need to figure out what is wrong with me.
You are selfish and self focused.
You are also lazy.
You are dishonest.
You prefer a quick fix.
OK. That's settled.
Now you know what is "wrong" with you.
SO WHAT?????
Is your life better?
Does your beautiful, shy, introverted wife feel better now that you have been properly labeled?
There is marriage work to do, and yet, you are selfishly determined to continue your self-absorbed navel gazing while your wife dies a death of a thousand cuts.
Stop being selfish and lazy.
Now, your "What's wrong with me"
.... whining is OVER & OUT.RIGHT?
here
The thing I like about this place is that I might learn how to grow up, here.
Re: HHH: "moving towards recovery" - 06/17/11 01:22 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Dr. Pepperband tells many of us what is wrong with us, saving thousands of dollars in therapy and years of work on a shrink's couch
And if that doesn't work, My Pink Fluffy Kitty Schmoopie, MelodyHell'sComingWithMeLane will shoot you after running you over with her SUV.
Your choice.
Re: HHH: "moving towards recovery" - 06/17/11 01:24 PM
don't make me bust a cap on you, pepperband!! 
Here is another Pepperband classic that has to be saved!
Pepperband![[Linked Image from blogsoma.net]](http://www.blogsoma.net/resources/9581/assets/Self%20Esteem%202.PNG)
Look - if you think that going to "therapy" to discover if you have some sort of "pathology" .... you are proving just how selfish you really are.
Here is what you should be asking this forum:
"What can I do to help my wife and my marriage?"
This is where you are currently going .....
You are not a victim.
Quit whining.
Here is another Pepperband classic that has to be saved!
Pepperband
Look - if you think that going to "therapy" to discover if you have some sort of "pathology" .... you are proving just how selfish you really are.
Here is what you should be asking this forum:
"What can I do to help my wife and my marriage?"
This is where you are currently going .....
You are not a victim.
Quit whining.
Daisy: Landowner/Leader & Gardener/Caretaker - 07/22/11 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by Daisy
At the core for me, it seems to have more to do with no longer feeling cherished and sacred -- dishonored in such a way that I find it extremely difficult to respect and admire a man who showed so much contempt, abuse, and deceit...and yet, still wishes to be washed of it, to be nurtured, and have his needs met,..if not better than before. I know,...this is my taker,...but, it is now my source of protection.
The husband is the leader; the one who sets the pulse and the course of the relationship. He is the protector and provider -- the landowner. The wife is the caretaker, the gardener, the nurturer, and the receiver; showing love through commitment, fidelity, and respect...if what she is given is honorable and to be respected. The wife is be cherished and to be treated as sacred by the husband; she must feel safe enough with him to open herself to him,...to give to him. I firmly believe that a husband must earn his right to the woman. To win her and keep her, he must be strong, he must be able to protect her, have good fences in the garden, good soil for her to cultivate, so she can keep things growing, fertile, tended, and healthy,... and for her to possess beauty and show a smile on her face in his presence....and admire him.
My H didn't show strength or protection. He allowed the foundations of the garden to deteriorate -- leaving me to fix the fences and plow the soil on my own. He abandoned me and the family. He showed a lack of decent boundaries, cowardice, weakness, disregard,... essentially stealing from us by giving what was ours/mine to a dangerous stranger. He showed extreme, abusive, cruelty with how he went about it -- the lies, the deceit, the emotional manipulations; as if he enjoyed being cruel, selfish, and contemptuous.
He did all of this in the midst of me still cultivating and nurturing --- on my own! What is there for me to respect in that? How was I to feel cherished and sacred in that?
I realize I am going on my own tangent, here,....but this, I believe, it very much how a BW feels when trying to recover from a H's betrayal.
She doesn't feel safe....compelled to relocate the feeling of protection and sacredness she felt with the man she married and find it in a place within herself, instead. I'm not saying it's right,....it's just the compulsion and feelings that come about from a H's betrayal.
The husband is the leader; the one who sets the pulse and the course of the relationship. He is the protector and provider -- the landowner. The wife is the caretaker, the gardener, the nurturer, and the receiver; showing love through commitment, fidelity, and respect...if what she is given is honorable and to be respected. The wife is be cherished and to be treated as sacred by the husband; she must feel safe enough with him to open herself to him,...to give to him. I firmly believe that a husband must earn his right to the woman. To win her and keep her, he must be strong, he must be able to protect her, have good fences in the garden, good soil for her to cultivate, so she can keep things growing, fertile, tended, and healthy,... and for her to possess beauty and show a smile on her face in his presence....and admire him.
My H didn't show strength or protection. He allowed the foundations of the garden to deteriorate -- leaving me to fix the fences and plow the soil on my own. He abandoned me and the family. He showed a lack of decent boundaries, cowardice, weakness, disregard,... essentially stealing from us by giving what was ours/mine to a dangerous stranger. He showed extreme, abusive, cruelty with how he went about it -- the lies, the deceit, the emotional manipulations; as if he enjoyed being cruel, selfish, and contemptuous.
He did all of this in the midst of me still cultivating and nurturing --- on my own! What is there for me to respect in that? How was I to feel cherished and sacred in that?
I realize I am going on my own tangent, here,....but this, I believe, it very much how a BW feels when trying to recover from a H's betrayal.
She doesn't feel safe....compelled to relocate the feeling of protection and sacredness she felt with the man she married and find it in a place within herself, instead. I'm not saying it's right,....it's just the compulsion and feelings that come about from a H's betrayal.
*** LINK *** to original post by Daisy
Schoolbus: Give it 6 months to decide (at least) - 08/26/11 12:24 AM
Originally Posted by schoolbus
mirror,
Let's say you decide to divorce your wife. What can you expect to go through?
You will experience a rollercoaster of emotions. For the first few days and weeks after d-day (the day you discovered the affair), you will have moment-to-moment emotional swings the likes of which you have never before encountered in your life.
Your mood will go from crying, to melancholy, to zoned-out, to desperation, to panic, to hopeful, to elation, to anger, to resentment, to depression, to mania, to despair, and back again - and all in the course of an hour sometimes.
One day can seem like an eternity, and the next can fly by so fast you didn't realize it happened. You might feel like you are losing your mind, because your wayward spouse can say something that sounds almost logical, yet you know it is a lie - but you want to believe it. Inside your heart, you know that your WS is "in there" somewhere, and you might get glimpses of that person you once knew, and when you do you so desire to trust that glimpse, and then the rug is pulled out from under you again. You see what you believe is truth, you don't trust it, you forget things, you look back over your past and wonder "was that REAL, or was that fake?".
As the weeks go by, you find out enough information about the affair that you begin to piece your world back together, at least some of it. You wonder if what you know is true. You wonder if you should reconcile, or if you should walk away. You want to reconcile some of the time, and at other times you think you should throw in the towel and just be done with the whole darn mess. Maybe everyone would be better off if the marriage was over. Five minutes later, or the next day, you wonder what you were thinking, and you believe that the marriage should be recovered, and start thinking about ways to work on that.
After three months or so, you wonder about how the marriage ended up where it was. That initial shock is over, and you have figured out that the blame for the affair itself really isn't on the betrayed spouse - it belongs to the WS. Some of the pieces of the marital problems belong to the BS, others to the WS. You begin to pick up the pieces that belong to you.
As the months pass, you hit the six month mark, and around then you begin to be angry again. You get good and mad, because as a BS, you wonder why YOU have to deal with the fallout of the affair, you have to deal with the pain, and why the WAYWARD seems to go along, LA-LA-LA-LA-LA and seems to just skate away unscathed?????? How does this happen, after the nuclear bomb that WS dropped in the marriage?????
And the rollercoaster of emotions seems to have hills and valleys still, but they are not moment-to-moment, but more like you have up days and down days, or perhaps weekly. Maybe certain things trigger you, perhaps that restaurant you know the affair couple went to, or that shirt you know the WS wore on the movie date that one night when they said they were going to work late.
You hate movies, or you are more careful about choosing them, because you now realize just how many of them have affair themes, affairs included in the plots, or have jokes about affair sex or casual affair scenes in them.
You lose many friends, because you just do not want to deal with people who are cheating on their spouses, or in affair marriages (affairages). You can't hang out with them anymore, because it makes you hurt to the very core of your soul. From your own lips, you hear yourself cursing movie stars and others who openly and cavalierly betray their marriages.
There is a pain you carry, deep inside your body. The pain does not leave you. When you awaken in the morning, it is there before you open your eyes, and greets you as your first thought: "Your spouse betrayed you. You still feel this hurt, and it is embedded in your soul. Some of the pain has been shaved away overnight, but not so much that you might feel the difference." When you close your eyes at night, you know that thought will be your last: "Try to sleep, your love has killed your heart, it hurts........."
And in your dreams, you know that the pain will also echo there.
Know that this will be the scenario, for about two years. The pain and the mood swings and the triggers - they fade over time. They do. It takes time, and work, to get yourself to the point where you can go to sleep and wake up and it NOT be your last thought and your first thought. It does change over time.
About two years, if you decide to divorce your wife.
That means, she will not be there to help you get through this. You are on your own.
Now, if you decide to recover your marriage?????
Same scenario as above. Because the emotional deal is the SAME, either way. You will still hurt. There is no getting around that. You will still have to go through the recovery cycle.
The difference is that if you divorce, you deal with the court issues, separating "stuff", legal paperwork, attorneys, money/finances, all of that. And you do it alone.
My advice is for you NOT to decide on divorce for at least six months. Mainly because you will change your mind so many times between now and then - just because of the rollercoaster ride. And if you do decide to divorce six months from now, there would be a more thoroughly though-out decision made at that point. At least that works in your favor, and allows things to cool off.
If you remain married, you work on your issues as a couple. Your wife and you focus on what went wrong, fulfilling your emotional needs together, she works on making restitution to you, you rebuild the marriage as a new one with the rules you jointly create to protect it from affairs in a better way. MB gives you the plans.
But either way, it is a long, hard road to recover from what has happened. You have a difficult choice to make.
My husband has had five affairs (of varied types), and I had a one-night stand (over 35 years ago). We are recovered. It IS possible to repair a marriage, to fall in love again, and to make your relationship work. Start with the foundation of love, and rebuild from there. I am not saying it is EASY. Worthwhile things are seldom easy.
But they are worthwhile.
Schoolbus
Let's say you decide to divorce your wife. What can you expect to go through?
You will experience a rollercoaster of emotions. For the first few days and weeks after d-day (the day you discovered the affair), you will have moment-to-moment emotional swings the likes of which you have never before encountered in your life.
Your mood will go from crying, to melancholy, to zoned-out, to desperation, to panic, to hopeful, to elation, to anger, to resentment, to depression, to mania, to despair, and back again - and all in the course of an hour sometimes.
One day can seem like an eternity, and the next can fly by so fast you didn't realize it happened. You might feel like you are losing your mind, because your wayward spouse can say something that sounds almost logical, yet you know it is a lie - but you want to believe it. Inside your heart, you know that your WS is "in there" somewhere, and you might get glimpses of that person you once knew, and when you do you so desire to trust that glimpse, and then the rug is pulled out from under you again. You see what you believe is truth, you don't trust it, you forget things, you look back over your past and wonder "was that REAL, or was that fake?".
As the weeks go by, you find out enough information about the affair that you begin to piece your world back together, at least some of it. You wonder if what you know is true. You wonder if you should reconcile, or if you should walk away. You want to reconcile some of the time, and at other times you think you should throw in the towel and just be done with the whole darn mess. Maybe everyone would be better off if the marriage was over. Five minutes later, or the next day, you wonder what you were thinking, and you believe that the marriage should be recovered, and start thinking about ways to work on that.
After three months or so, you wonder about how the marriage ended up where it was. That initial shock is over, and you have figured out that the blame for the affair itself really isn't on the betrayed spouse - it belongs to the WS. Some of the pieces of the marital problems belong to the BS, others to the WS. You begin to pick up the pieces that belong to you.
As the months pass, you hit the six month mark, and around then you begin to be angry again. You get good and mad, because as a BS, you wonder why YOU have to deal with the fallout of the affair, you have to deal with the pain, and why the WAYWARD seems to go along, LA-LA-LA-LA-LA and seems to just skate away unscathed?????? How does this happen, after the nuclear bomb that WS dropped in the marriage?????
And the rollercoaster of emotions seems to have hills and valleys still, but they are not moment-to-moment, but more like you have up days and down days, or perhaps weekly. Maybe certain things trigger you, perhaps that restaurant you know the affair couple went to, or that shirt you know the WS wore on the movie date that one night when they said they were going to work late.
You hate movies, or you are more careful about choosing them, because you now realize just how many of them have affair themes, affairs included in the plots, or have jokes about affair sex or casual affair scenes in them.
You lose many friends, because you just do not want to deal with people who are cheating on their spouses, or in affair marriages (affairages). You can't hang out with them anymore, because it makes you hurt to the very core of your soul. From your own lips, you hear yourself cursing movie stars and others who openly and cavalierly betray their marriages.
There is a pain you carry, deep inside your body. The pain does not leave you. When you awaken in the morning, it is there before you open your eyes, and greets you as your first thought: "Your spouse betrayed you. You still feel this hurt, and it is embedded in your soul. Some of the pain has been shaved away overnight, but not so much that you might feel the difference." When you close your eyes at night, you know that thought will be your last: "Try to sleep, your love has killed your heart, it hurts........."
And in your dreams, you know that the pain will also echo there.
Know that this will be the scenario, for about two years. The pain and the mood swings and the triggers - they fade over time. They do. It takes time, and work, to get yourself to the point where you can go to sleep and wake up and it NOT be your last thought and your first thought. It does change over time.
About two years, if you decide to divorce your wife.
That means, she will not be there to help you get through this. You are on your own.
Now, if you decide to recover your marriage?????
Same scenario as above. Because the emotional deal is the SAME, either way. You will still hurt. There is no getting around that. You will still have to go through the recovery cycle.
The difference is that if you divorce, you deal with the court issues, separating "stuff", legal paperwork, attorneys, money/finances, all of that. And you do it alone.
My advice is for you NOT to decide on divorce for at least six months. Mainly because you will change your mind so many times between now and then - just because of the rollercoaster ride. And if you do decide to divorce six months from now, there would be a more thoroughly though-out decision made at that point. At least that works in your favor, and allows things to cool off.
If you remain married, you work on your issues as a couple. Your wife and you focus on what went wrong, fulfilling your emotional needs together, she works on making restitution to you, you rebuild the marriage as a new one with the rules you jointly create to protect it from affairs in a better way. MB gives you the plans.
But either way, it is a long, hard road to recover from what has happened. You have a difficult choice to make.
My husband has had five affairs (of varied types), and I had a one-night stand (over 35 years ago). We are recovered. It IS possible to repair a marriage, to fall in love again, and to make your relationship work. Start with the foundation of love, and rebuild from there. I am not saying it is EASY. Worthwhile things are seldom easy.
But they are worthwhile.
Schoolbus
Here is a link to the original thread !
Re: RESPECT for SELF .... not self-esteem - 09/15/11 01:01 AM
AMEN!!
I've had that same opinion for quite some time!!
So your "Self Esteem" is low.......GET OVER IT!!......show some SELF RESPECT!!!!
I've had that same opinion for quite some time!!
So your "Self Esteem" is low.......GET OVER IT!!......show some SELF RESPECT!!!!
Re: Mr Wondering's wonderous words - 09/23/11 02:37 PM
Wonderful post, I'll mail this to my husband, hope he can think & understand. thanks.
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Just mentioning that alliteration in the wrong hands can be a dangerous thing!
anywho ... the following is written by Mr Wondering .... and I liked it too much to have it buried on another thread
here 'tis:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To the Foggy;
Foggy is not a bad word. It's merely an assesment by those that have come before you of your current position. I've been foggy, Mrs. Wonderings has been foggy...almost everyone here has been foggy at one point or another dealing with this mess. The term is thrown around here quite often as a way to say "come on, think about what you are saying/arguing...you are so close to processing this and you just refuse". We also want to make clear to newbies that your advice, statements, arguments, questions should be, in our opinions "caveated" (if thats a word) and/or disregarded as your perspective is not YET in alignment with the principles here on MB.
We are not condemning you to a lifetime of fogginess (though I am certain some remain there). We are hopeful that your perspective will change and become more healthy. By sticking around and continuing with these debates seeds of clarity ARE certainly being planted. So keep going but try not to take offense to us so easily for one day you will be us, no kidding. We are thankful MB has provided the forum for your (and our) development as we ALL put our minds around this momentus event that occured in all our lives. MB, really is the best infidelity recovery program known today. I don't think I could improve it and I really don't see how one fresh out of an affair could even conceive of improving it, but I understand how the fogginess makes one try.
When Mrs. Wondering and I first arrived (I read first but she initiated us posting), she and I both poked fun at the cult like attitudes that were being presented to us. We too thought some of the methods were being portrayed to rigidly and were QUESTIONABLE, to say the least. We thought we could swath our own path. We WERE foggy then so we completely understand and SEE where you all are coming from now. No worries, we love ya anyway.
On the other hand, I have a sneeking suspicion that 1 or more of you may be other than you say you are. Celt, in particular, strikes me as potentially a full blown WS, a WS that is now divorced or an OP. Come on, a year recovered BS that thinks exposure is a bad thing, continual posts on every exposure thread here debating intricacies which are quite clear and is proud of the fact he "saved" his wife's reputation by not exposing her affair. I'm a BS that didn't expose and "saved" my wifes reputation but WE (the Mrs. and I) see absolutely clearly I should have exposed at least to her parents and the single OM's family. It would likely have cut weeks off her 3 month affair. Accordingly, we now consistently encourage others to do FULL exposure in accordance with MB principles. In my opinion, Celt's posts appear specifically designed to stir the pot, distract us from our intended purpose (of helping real couples afflicted by infidelty), play on newbie BS fears, and pointedly attack Melody Lane as she IS one of the many but perhaps the most outspoken "affair buster" superhero. I don't know if this is a concerted organized attack on MB or a personal vendetta against Melody Lane and/or MB...but I suspect it, nonetheless. Sfjaj, a few others and even you Cookie I suspect. Not an accusation, just a suspicion. But then again, I am a conspiracist. I'd investigate myself if I thought I'd find anything.
On the other hand, we have recently had a handful of WW's show up. Last June when I arrived I only saw a few WW's regularly posting and when a new WW arrived they were usually an island of dissent/fogginess and rarely got support and thus rarely swam against the stream for long on the board. However, with so many arriving at nearly the same time the foggy have been recently embolden to post their opinions and advice regardless of the fact they are mistaken and contrary to solid MB principles. Notice I am not saying they are wrong, IMO they are just not of the proper perspective YET to internalize the brillance of the MB program and ALL its components so they question the PROFESSIONALLY designed, TRIED and TESTED narrow MB path. It doesn't help that they have since been told that their "opinions" no matter how fogged out are somehow valuable and should be respected. I guess we all do really in essence respect the opinion; but, recognize and point it out for what it is, foggy, so that newbies are hopefully not distracted. We respect the foggy individuals as what they are and as they post here PROCESSING what they need to process to become healthy again, whether individually, as a marital partner or as a divorcee. We all are here rooting for you all to fully get it.
BTW, we are still foggy ouyselves on some issues including in particular conflict avoidance. We are trying to learn and get better but its tough to break old engrained habits. The difference is, I would not begin to tell, question or advise people, how to address their conflict avoidance issues, let alone in opposition to the stated professional principles, until I had at least got a handle on my own.
Foggy is NOT a put down, it's who you are and who I am. I believe us to be at differing levels of fogginess, but, I guess, thats just my opinion. I wish you all a succesful journey...we really do want to see you on the other side of these arguments and healthy/healthier one day.
Mr. Wondering
anywho ... the following is written by Mr Wondering .... and I liked it too much to have it buried on another thread
here 'tis:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To the Foggy;
Foggy is not a bad word. It's merely an assesment by those that have come before you of your current position. I've been foggy, Mrs. Wonderings has been foggy...almost everyone here has been foggy at one point or another dealing with this mess. The term is thrown around here quite often as a way to say "come on, think about what you are saying/arguing...you are so close to processing this and you just refuse". We also want to make clear to newbies that your advice, statements, arguments, questions should be, in our opinions "caveated" (if thats a word) and/or disregarded as your perspective is not YET in alignment with the principles here on MB.
We are not condemning you to a lifetime of fogginess (though I am certain some remain there). We are hopeful that your perspective will change and become more healthy. By sticking around and continuing with these debates seeds of clarity ARE certainly being planted. So keep going but try not to take offense to us so easily for one day you will be us, no kidding. We are thankful MB has provided the forum for your (and our) development as we ALL put our minds around this momentus event that occured in all our lives. MB, really is the best infidelity recovery program known today. I don't think I could improve it and I really don't see how one fresh out of an affair could even conceive of improving it, but I understand how the fogginess makes one try.
When Mrs. Wondering and I first arrived (I read first but she initiated us posting), she and I both poked fun at the cult like attitudes that were being presented to us. We too thought some of the methods were being portrayed to rigidly and were QUESTIONABLE, to say the least. We thought we could swath our own path. We WERE foggy then so we completely understand and SEE where you all are coming from now. No worries, we love ya anyway.
On the other hand, I have a sneeking suspicion that 1 or more of you may be other than you say you are. Celt, in particular, strikes me as potentially a full blown WS, a WS that is now divorced or an OP. Come on, a year recovered BS that thinks exposure is a bad thing, continual posts on every exposure thread here debating intricacies which are quite clear and is proud of the fact he "saved" his wife's reputation by not exposing her affair. I'm a BS that didn't expose and "saved" my wifes reputation but WE (the Mrs. and I) see absolutely clearly I should have exposed at least to her parents and the single OM's family. It would likely have cut weeks off her 3 month affair. Accordingly, we now consistently encourage others to do FULL exposure in accordance with MB principles. In my opinion, Celt's posts appear specifically designed to stir the pot, distract us from our intended purpose (of helping real couples afflicted by infidelty), play on newbie BS fears, and pointedly attack Melody Lane as she IS one of the many but perhaps the most outspoken "affair buster" superhero. I don't know if this is a concerted organized attack on MB or a personal vendetta against Melody Lane and/or MB...but I suspect it, nonetheless. Sfjaj, a few others and even you Cookie I suspect. Not an accusation, just a suspicion. But then again, I am a conspiracist. I'd investigate myself if I thought I'd find anything.
On the other hand, we have recently had a handful of WW's show up. Last June when I arrived I only saw a few WW's regularly posting and when a new WW arrived they were usually an island of dissent/fogginess and rarely got support and thus rarely swam against the stream for long on the board. However, with so many arriving at nearly the same time the foggy have been recently embolden to post their opinions and advice regardless of the fact they are mistaken and contrary to solid MB principles. Notice I am not saying they are wrong, IMO they are just not of the proper perspective YET to internalize the brillance of the MB program and ALL its components so they question the PROFESSIONALLY designed, TRIED and TESTED narrow MB path. It doesn't help that they have since been told that their "opinions" no matter how fogged out are somehow valuable and should be respected. I guess we all do really in essence respect the opinion; but, recognize and point it out for what it is, foggy, so that newbies are hopefully not distracted. We respect the foggy individuals as what they are and as they post here PROCESSING what they need to process to become healthy again, whether individually, as a marital partner or as a divorcee. We all are here rooting for you all to fully get it.
BTW, we are still foggy ouyselves on some issues including in particular conflict avoidance. We are trying to learn and get better but its tough to break old engrained habits. The difference is, I would not begin to tell, question or advise people, how to address their conflict avoidance issues, let alone in opposition to the stated professional principles, until I had at least got a handle on my own.
Foggy is NOT a put down, it's who you are and who I am. I believe us to be at differing levels of fogginess, but, I guess, thats just my opinion. I wish you all a succesful journey...we really do want to see you on the other side of these arguments and healthy/healthier one day.
Mr. Wondering
Poja example: Chinese vs Mexican - 12/01/11 02:57 PM
THIS is MelodyLane's example of how marital sacrifice begets incompatibility and diminishes love within the marriage.
LINK to original
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Marriage Builders suggests a third way: doing things you both like. For example, if he hates horror movies, that wouldn't be a good idea to ask him to go to a horror movie because that would be sacrifice. He would just be miserable. Compromise, ie: win/lose, is how couples create incompatibility. So no, he shouldn't have been willing to try things he knows he hates.
Here is an example of what I mean:
I hate Chinese food and my H hates Mexican. I love Mexican and he loves Chinese. So I make a compromise with him that he endures Mexican and as an "incentive" I will go suffer through Chinese with him.
Lets say we practice a "compromise" and we go for Mexican one night and Chinese the next night. That means that I will be unhappy on one night and he will be unhappy the next because we are each gaining at the others EXPENSE for one night.
This is called sacrifice. And it leads to incompatibility and resentment. It leads to incompatibility because people won't do things that make themselves unhappy for long. I might go for Chinese 3 or 4 times and tolerate that nasty food, but pretty soon I will be finding reasons to AVOID going out to eat and he will be resentful, because people who practice sacrifice KEEP SCORE. He will be mad because I "OWE" him a Chinese night to pay for his Mexican night.
The solution recommended by Marriage Builders avoids all that. Instead of going to ANY restaurant that one spouse doesn't like, the solution is to find a restaurant that BOTH LOVE. Mexican and Chinese are completely OFF our lists. In it's place is a list of restaurants we both like. This solution builds compatibility because it ensures we are BOTH happy and no one sacrifices at the others expense.
Here is an example of what I mean:
I hate Chinese food and my H hates Mexican. I love Mexican and he loves Chinese. So I make a compromise with him that he endures Mexican and as an "incentive" I will go suffer through Chinese with him.
Lets say we practice a "compromise" and we go for Mexican one night and Chinese the next night. That means that I will be unhappy on one night and he will be unhappy the next because we are each gaining at the others EXPENSE for one night.
This is called sacrifice. And it leads to incompatibility and resentment. It leads to incompatibility because people won't do things that make themselves unhappy for long. I might go for Chinese 3 or 4 times and tolerate that nasty food, but pretty soon I will be finding reasons to AVOID going out to eat and he will be resentful, because people who practice sacrifice KEEP SCORE. He will be mad because I "OWE" him a Chinese night to pay for his Mexican night.
The solution recommended by Marriage Builders avoids all that. Instead of going to ANY restaurant that one spouse doesn't like, the solution is to find a restaurant that BOTH LOVE. Mexican and Chinese are completely OFF our lists. In it's place is a list of restaurants we both like. This solution builds compatibility because it ensures we are BOTH happy and no one sacrifices at the others expense.
LINK to original
Carrot? Egg? Coffee bean? - 01/07/13 03:49 PM
The carrot? The egg? The coffee bean? Which are you?
- Post by Wulffpack_girl
Link to original
- Post by Wulffpack_girl
Originally Posted by wulffpack_girl
Fluffy, I have been following your thread and felt compelled to post, because I�ve been where you are at�actually, I am still where you are at. I understand the pain you feel. I wake up every morning with the knowledge that I ruined my life, and received nothing in return.
Your BH may be done, he may not. We can�t know the answer to that. Honestly, he probably doesn�t know the answer to that, and may not for some time to come. GO is right, you certainly can�t pressure him for a decision. It�s his right to end the marriage. You and I gave our H�s gold-plated �get out of marriage free� cards. So what CAN you do?
You can work on your side of the street. You can be serious about the changes you want to make in yourself. You can try to figure out what your BH�s top EN�s are, and try to meet them from afar. I doubt he despises more about your personality than he loves, or he never would have married you in the first place.
I saw a little anecdote the other day:
It made me think�and although unfortunately I believe that I am the egg, you have a choice to make for yourself, dear heart. If you truly want to be the woman � and possibly the wife � you are meant to be, if I were you, I�d #1, pack my things and move back closer to BH. He may still decide to divorce you, but 110 miles away from him is nowhere near where you need to be for him to see the changes you are making in your life. #2, I�d take his email and in response, write him a love letter. I don�t mean full of hearts and rainbows and empty promises. I mean what you�ve gained from MB thus far. That you understand that in the past, you weren�t the wife you should have been. Of course you were selfish and blamed others � you were wayward. That you failed to care for your BH and you failed to protect him. Few of us actually enter into marriage knowing how to make a truly good marriage. Armed with MB, you now have the tools to do so.
But the one thing you can�t do is to refuse to make changes�because we were wayward, there is something fundamentally broken within us and we have to address our flaws and shortcomings or risk remaining a wayward forever. I may not have the love of my husband anymore, but I am not the same woman I was in 2009.
Your BH may be done, he may not. We can�t know the answer to that. Honestly, he probably doesn�t know the answer to that, and may not for some time to come. GO is right, you certainly can�t pressure him for a decision. It�s his right to end the marriage. You and I gave our H�s gold-plated �get out of marriage free� cards. So what CAN you do?
You can work on your side of the street. You can be serious about the changes you want to make in yourself. You can try to figure out what your BH�s top EN�s are, and try to meet them from afar. I doubt he despises more about your personality than he loves, or he never would have married you in the first place.
I saw a little anecdote the other day:
Originally Posted by Which are you?
A young woman went to her grandmother and told her abo...ut her life and how things were so hard for her. She did not know how she was going to make it and wanted to give up. She was tired of fighting and struggling. It seemed as one problem was solved a new one arose.
Her grandmother took her to the kitchen. She filled three pots with water. In the first, she placed carrots, in the second she placed eggs and the last she placed ground coffee beans. She let them sit and boil without saying a word.
In about twenty minutes she turned off the burners. She fished the carrots out and placed them in a bowl. She pulled the eggs out and placed them in a bowl. Then she ladled the coffee out and placed it in a bowl. Turning to her granddaughter, she asked, "Tell me what do you see?"
"Carrots, eggs, and coffee," she replied.
She brought her closer and asked her to feel the carrots. She did and noted that they got soft.She then asked her to take an egg and break it.
After pulling off the shell, she observed the hard-boiled egg.
Finally, she asked her to sip the coffee. The granddaughter smiled, as she tasted its rich aroma. The granddaughter then asked. "What's the point,grandmother?"
Her grandmother explained that each of these objects had faced the same adversity--boiling water--but each reacted differently.
The carrot went in strong, hard and unrelenting. However after being subjected to the boiling water, it softened and became weak. The egg had been fragile. Its thin outer shell had protected its liquid interior. But, after sitting through the boiling water, its inside became hardened.
The ground coffee beans were unique, however. After they were in the boiling water they had changed the water.
"Which are you?" she asked her granddaughter.
"When adversity knocks on your door, how do you respond? Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?"
Think of this: Which am I?
Am I the carrot that seems strong, but with pain and adversity, do I wilt and become soft and lose my strength?
Am I the egg that starts with a malleable heart, but changes with the heat? Did I have a fluid spirit, but after a death, a breakup, a financial hardship or some other trial, have I become hardened and stiff?
Does my shell look the same, but on the inside am I bitter and tough with a stiff spirit and a hardened heart?
Or am I like the coffee bean? The bean actually changes the hot water, the very circumstance that brings the pain. When the water gets hot, it releases the fragrance and flavor. If you are like the bean, when things are at their worst, you get better and change the situation around you.
When the hours are the darkest and trials are their greatest do you elevate to another level?
AUTHOR UNKNOWN
. . .For when I am weak, then am I strong.
see - 2 Corinthians 12:10
Her grandmother took her to the kitchen. She filled three pots with water. In the first, she placed carrots, in the second she placed eggs and the last she placed ground coffee beans. She let them sit and boil without saying a word.
In about twenty minutes she turned off the burners. She fished the carrots out and placed them in a bowl. She pulled the eggs out and placed them in a bowl. Then she ladled the coffee out and placed it in a bowl. Turning to her granddaughter, she asked, "Tell me what do you see?"
"Carrots, eggs, and coffee," she replied.
She brought her closer and asked her to feel the carrots. She did and noted that they got soft.She then asked her to take an egg and break it.
After pulling off the shell, she observed the hard-boiled egg.
Finally, she asked her to sip the coffee. The granddaughter smiled, as she tasted its rich aroma. The granddaughter then asked. "What's the point,grandmother?"
Her grandmother explained that each of these objects had faced the same adversity--boiling water--but each reacted differently.
The carrot went in strong, hard and unrelenting. However after being subjected to the boiling water, it softened and became weak. The egg had been fragile. Its thin outer shell had protected its liquid interior. But, after sitting through the boiling water, its inside became hardened.
The ground coffee beans were unique, however. After they were in the boiling water they had changed the water.
"Which are you?" she asked her granddaughter.
"When adversity knocks on your door, how do you respond? Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?"
Think of this: Which am I?
Am I the carrot that seems strong, but with pain and adversity, do I wilt and become soft and lose my strength?
Am I the egg that starts with a malleable heart, but changes with the heat? Did I have a fluid spirit, but after a death, a breakup, a financial hardship or some other trial, have I become hardened and stiff?
Does my shell look the same, but on the inside am I bitter and tough with a stiff spirit and a hardened heart?
Or am I like the coffee bean? The bean actually changes the hot water, the very circumstance that brings the pain. When the water gets hot, it releases the fragrance and flavor. If you are like the bean, when things are at their worst, you get better and change the situation around you.
When the hours are the darkest and trials are their greatest do you elevate to another level?
AUTHOR UNKNOWN
. . .For when I am weak, then am I strong.
see - 2 Corinthians 12:10
It made me think�and although unfortunately I believe that I am the egg, you have a choice to make for yourself, dear heart. If you truly want to be the woman � and possibly the wife � you are meant to be, if I were you, I�d #1, pack my things and move back closer to BH. He may still decide to divorce you, but 110 miles away from him is nowhere near where you need to be for him to see the changes you are making in your life. #2, I�d take his email and in response, write him a love letter. I don�t mean full of hearts and rainbows and empty promises. I mean what you�ve gained from MB thus far. That you understand that in the past, you weren�t the wife you should have been. Of course you were selfish and blamed others � you were wayward. That you failed to care for your BH and you failed to protect him. Few of us actually enter into marriage knowing how to make a truly good marriage. Armed with MB, you now have the tools to do so.
But the one thing you can�t do is to refuse to make changes�because we were wayward, there is something fundamentally broken within us and we have to address our flaws and shortcomings or risk remaining a wayward forever. I may not have the love of my husband anymore, but I am not the same woman I was in 2009.
Link to original
Re: Carrot? Egg? Coffee bean? - 02/13/13 05:56 AM
Pep,
I hope you don't mind if I post this here. Thanks in advance.
Link to Original
I hope you don't mind if I post this here. Thanks in advance.
Originally Posted by Mortarman
Sounds like you are doing the battle plan. So, let me just nibble around the edges.
As I eluded to above, make sure you include taking care of you. Remember, the first rule of combat is "take care of yourself." Why? Because if you dont, then you are no good to anyone else. Your kids (and maybe even your WW) are counting on you to be there. So, make sure you do tyhe little things that take care of you.
Second, you might want to shorten your prayers. Jesus sees you. He is standing right there with you. The betrayal you feel, He feels also...because your wife has not only betrayed you, she has betrayed Him. He weeps as you do.
Instead, my prayers got shorter as time went on...well, let me clarify that. I talk to Jesus constantly. That is the relationship part of the two of us. But when I say I shortened my prayers, I mean that I stopped with the laundry list of requests. He knows what I need.
All I ask now is two things. Number one is that His will be done, not mine. And number two, that he shows me walls and doors. Walls and doors are nothing but this...
In the Bible, it says that He is a lamp unto our feet. What does that mean? Well, in that day, the lamp they were talking about was a lamp with a candle in it...illuminating the path of a traveller at night. Well, how far does a candle illuminate? Not too far! Maybe a few steps in front of you.
But I have NO IDEA what lies down the road. It might be a dead end. It might be a cliff. I have no clue. And that is the point! When I pray "walls and doors," I am saying to Him "Jesus, I can only see a few steps in front. I am trusting you. So, I will pray for you to show me walls and doors. If the path I am on, if the decision I am making is not YOUR will, then please put a wall in front of me so I dont go over the cliff. If it is your will, then show me a door to go through."
Since I have done that...since I have relinguished my will to control my path...guess what? I have gotten walls and doors.
So, when I have designs to do something...but then it just seems to be getting harder and harder to do...and I cant get it done...I look up and ask "is this a wall?" And I quickly find out that even though I wanted to do this thing, it wasnt His will. And so I thank him, make a left or right face (or even an about face sometimes)...and we continue.
My relationship with Christ is one of beginnings. He walks with me. At times I stumble. But instead of laughing at me, or admonishing me, He just reaches down, picks me up, dusts me off...and we begin again. One foot in front of the other.
This is where you need to get to. You CANNOT control what is going on in the foxhole next to you. All you can do is concentrate on what is between your sector stakes...and let God handle the rest.
One last thing...my favorite general of all time once said "Wisdom is nothing more than healed pain." General Robert E. Lee
You are about to become VERY wise.
As I eluded to above, make sure you include taking care of you. Remember, the first rule of combat is "take care of yourself." Why? Because if you dont, then you are no good to anyone else. Your kids (and maybe even your WW) are counting on you to be there. So, make sure you do tyhe little things that take care of you.
Second, you might want to shorten your prayers. Jesus sees you. He is standing right there with you. The betrayal you feel, He feels also...because your wife has not only betrayed you, she has betrayed Him. He weeps as you do.
Instead, my prayers got shorter as time went on...well, let me clarify that. I talk to Jesus constantly. That is the relationship part of the two of us. But when I say I shortened my prayers, I mean that I stopped with the laundry list of requests. He knows what I need.
All I ask now is two things. Number one is that His will be done, not mine. And number two, that he shows me walls and doors. Walls and doors are nothing but this...
In the Bible, it says that He is a lamp unto our feet. What does that mean? Well, in that day, the lamp they were talking about was a lamp with a candle in it...illuminating the path of a traveller at night. Well, how far does a candle illuminate? Not too far! Maybe a few steps in front of you.
But I have NO IDEA what lies down the road. It might be a dead end. It might be a cliff. I have no clue. And that is the point! When I pray "walls and doors," I am saying to Him "Jesus, I can only see a few steps in front. I am trusting you. So, I will pray for you to show me walls and doors. If the path I am on, if the decision I am making is not YOUR will, then please put a wall in front of me so I dont go over the cliff. If it is your will, then show me a door to go through."
Since I have done that...since I have relinguished my will to control my path...guess what? I have gotten walls and doors.
So, when I have designs to do something...but then it just seems to be getting harder and harder to do...and I cant get it done...I look up and ask "is this a wall?" And I quickly find out that even though I wanted to do this thing, it wasnt His will. And so I thank him, make a left or right face (or even an about face sometimes)...and we continue.
My relationship with Christ is one of beginnings. He walks with me. At times I stumble. But instead of laughing at me, or admonishing me, He just reaches down, picks me up, dusts me off...and we begin again. One foot in front of the other.
This is where you need to get to. You CANNOT control what is going on in the foxhole next to you. All you can do is concentrate on what is between your sector stakes...and let God handle the rest.
One last thing...my favorite general of all time once said "Wisdom is nothing more than healed pain." General Robert E. Lee
You are about to become VERY wise.
Re: I need to find myself - 02/23/13 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
[quote]
4. Ask your child to point to their mom/dad, if you are not sure which one you are reach into your pants and feel around, if there is a penis there, you are dad, if not, you're probably mom.
Now one of these tried and true methods ought to help you find yourself, but it probable dark so let's help you see better. Reach behind you, palms facing you, arms hanging down and grab. That's your butt. Now reach in that and look for a large round object, that is your head. Now, with both hands pull as hard as you can. You are now performing recto-cranial extraction.
Ok, now you have found yourself. We are making progress here! Now we need to find out "who you are". This is not so hard. Look around the house - if there are one or more particularly short little people ask one of them, they are called children, they probably know the answer as it was one of their first two or 3 words. Not able to talk yet? No sweat.
Look for the full grown person with the red eyes who looks like they haven't slept in a while - they probably know. They aren't home??? let's keep looking.
Try looking in a desk or filing cabinet. Look for folders named "mortgage", "Utilities", Or "Marriage license". There will probably be two names here - you are one of those. So we have found you and narrowed it down to two people.
Now look and see if there is a wallet around. Remember that? Little pocket sized leather folding thingy. Look for something that says drivers license. There should be a name. Now find a mirror (Glass thingy in the bathroom), look at the picture on the driver's license and the face in the mirror, if they match, the name on the license is WHO YOU ARE. If they don't, check those papers you found - you are the other name.
Now that you have found yourself and know who you are go find the other full grown person in the house and introduce yourself. Start out with "I'm sorry I could not find myself or figure out who I was, I know now"
Next, knock off the drama, quit being melodramatic and start being mom/dad, husband/wife like you are supposed to and quit with the childish theatrics because the final piece is WHERE YOU ARE. This is called the real world where people depend on you to act like a grownup and keep track of details like who and where you are. The little people in the house are kinda sorta counting on you too.
If this doesn't work and you have to take a journey to answer these questions there is a chance that when you find yourself you will be alone, without a house, without a spouse, without children who love you and without a penny. That is how my XW found herself a year later. Trust me, my plan outlined earlier is better.
Ahhhhhhhhh.... okay, I needed to get that out since the day my XW took off into the sunset and another post yanked that rant out of me. If your WS tells you that they need time away to find themselves and discover who they are print it out for them. If they can't follow the directions make sure the door doesn't hit them in the rear and injure their head. There is a reason I harp on not putting up with crap from WS's who like to play little selfish games - if you indulge them they keep playing them.
I'm better now. Thanks for letting me take a good long vent... maybe I am finally getting my old, dead, buried, BS issues from the days before I met J out of my system.
4. Ask your child to point to their mom/dad, if you are not sure which one you are reach into your pants and feel around, if there is a penis there, you are dad, if not, you're probably mom.
Now one of these tried and true methods ought to help you find yourself, but it probable dark so let's help you see better. Reach behind you, palms facing you, arms hanging down and grab. That's your butt. Now reach in that and look for a large round object, that is your head. Now, with both hands pull as hard as you can. You are now performing recto-cranial extraction.
Ok, now you have found yourself. We are making progress here! Now we need to find out "who you are". This is not so hard. Look around the house - if there are one or more particularly short little people ask one of them, they are called children, they probably know the answer as it was one of their first two or 3 words. Not able to talk yet? No sweat.
Look for the full grown person with the red eyes who looks like they haven't slept in a while - they probably know. They aren't home??? let's keep looking.
Try looking in a desk or filing cabinet. Look for folders named "mortgage", "Utilities", Or "Marriage license". There will probably be two names here - you are one of those. So we have found you and narrowed it down to two people.
Now look and see if there is a wallet around. Remember that? Little pocket sized leather folding thingy. Look for something that says drivers license. There should be a name. Now find a mirror (Glass thingy in the bathroom), look at the picture on the driver's license and the face in the mirror, if they match, the name on the license is WHO YOU ARE. If they don't, check those papers you found - you are the other name.
Now that you have found yourself and know who you are go find the other full grown person in the house and introduce yourself. Start out with "I'm sorry I could not find myself or figure out who I was, I know now"
Next, knock off the drama, quit being melodramatic and start being mom/dad, husband/wife like you are supposed to and quit with the childish theatrics because the final piece is WHERE YOU ARE. This is called the real world where people depend on you to act like a grownup and keep track of details like who and where you are. The little people in the house are kinda sorta counting on you too.
If this doesn't work and you have to take a journey to answer these questions there is a chance that when you find yourself you will be alone, without a house, without a spouse, without children who love you and without a penny. That is how my XW found herself a year later. Trust me, my plan outlined earlier is better.
Ahhhhhhhhh.... okay, I needed to get that out since the day my XW took off into the sunset and another post yanked that rant out of me. If your WS tells you that they need time away to find themselves and discover who they are print it out for them. If they can't follow the directions make sure the door doesn't hit them in the rear and injure their head. There is a reason I harp on not putting up with crap from WS's who like to play little selfish games - if you indulge them they keep playing them.
I'm better now. Thanks for letting me take a good long vent... maybe I am finally getting my old, dead, buried, BS issues from the days before I met J out of my system.
I think I fell into the catagorie of the one trying to assist with the "Cranium extraction process" What a KISA huh?
But then again, what a sucker for a pretty face too..
Reminded of the saying, "All that glitters is not gold"
You can dress them up, dust them off, but a wayward personality will remain that way unless they are scared off..yeah it seems so tough to scare them, the poor things, when there are so many out there who will love them, unconditionally.
That's what they sell anyway, for whoever is buying, and they don't pay much either. Yeah they buy them cheap...
Well some anyway, some will tell you they will give you the world, like they actually had it to give in the first place...But those ppl are just up-selling what was GIVEN to them ALREADY.
How do you give someone something they already had? Owned?
Being a good saleman, like selling Ice to Eskimos..