QUOTE-Dr. Harley

LOVEBUSTERS PAGE 248
“Those with a history of addiction usually have a difficult time learning to be thoughtful. The self-centeredness they perfect as addicts stays with them even when they’ve overcome the addiction What looks like thoughtfulness often turns out to be manipulation----they appear to be thoughtful to get their way.
True thoughtfulness accommodates the feelings of others for their sake.
It is a willingness to give up behavior that is offensive to others and create new and appealing behavior. You create romantic love when you do something that is deeply appreciated. It’s preserved when you avoid behavior that is deeply resented.”

I feel really awkward writing this.
Several other threads on this board revolve around alcohol/drug addiction at this time.
For the past 3 years or better I have always lurked hoping to see how they came out. With my work schedule I would see them come up and follow for a few days and then loose them or they would drop off the board. This winter I have some time so I have been able to post and follow a few.

I’m gonna go out on a limb with this.

I could write pages of what has happened in the past. Most of my posts concerning the past would look much like the ones seen now when its obvious there is alcoholism/drug addiction in progress.

To “us” the viewer we can see it so clearly.

To the poster the denial (concerning the addiction) has set in so strong and the belief that they can “SAVE the OP and M” is so strong that they are not emotionally able to see clearly or receive clearly suggestions from those of us who have been through it.
The affect of living with an addict happens so slowly-it is cunning –baffeling and powerful-It usually always leave us going “how could this happen”?
The normal “gauges” that would kick in for most people that sense “things are not right” become so off and distorted from living with an alcoholic/addict that receiving healthy suggestions seems foreign.

Four years ago I would have posted with all the obvious signs of living with an alcoholic wife and how the behavior became my “NORMAL” . My DS now 24 also lived in the house and drank irresponsibly. I ALLOWED THIS TO BECOME “NORMAL” BECAUSE I DID NOT SET AND ENFORCE HEALTHY BOUNDERIES.
He now has his own apartment approx 5miles away and a good ft job.

Four years ago Marks Post would have made no sense to me what so ever. You have to scroll almost to the bottom of the page.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...art=13&vc=1

Plain and simple you on the MB’s board would have picked up on it quickly with a few questions and replies. Just like everyone else told me and everything I read “the change had to come from within me”.

Four years ago had you posted to me and I did not want to hear what you said (leave/seperate/raise her bottom/D) I would have been off to the next “FIX” for my alcoholic and M.
Another book, another site, another program. (Plan A-disaterous Plan B-would always be broken somehow- Divorce Busters 180-wouldn’t even notice)
I would avoid you if I did not like the message that you delivered to me or if you suggested fixing something within myself that I had control to fix or try.
A lot of people around me tried to help. I became obsessed with “fixing my M” but all the change had to be with her. What COULD I DO that would make her change? INSANITY…….

After 17 years of sobriety (did not work a program-put a cork on the bottle) I found myself feeling like I was cracking up and overwhelmed by the situation. I was so tied into and obsessed with fixing our situation that I risked loosing my job-finances were headed towards shambles-AO/DJ/VA-was everyday M life.
Several friends suggested Al-Anon. After going to four different locations I was able to walk in the door. I just couldn’t go in up until that point.
For the first year I did very little talking. It was too painful to hear my story coming out of the mouths of other people who did not know me personally.
The stories-not the same-but the situation is. Much like here at MB’s.

From that point on I began to grow. I went to AA for the first time. I actually completed the task my group counselor suggested when I was discharged-Read the Big Book and go to meetings. I actually got a sponsor-Worked the steps with a sponsor and continue to today.

At some point (2004??) my W started an A with a “party buddy”. He supported her drinking in every way. How long the A lasted I don’t know. She has never been willing to discuss details. It was extremely hard to tell the difference from the alcoholism. When she would drink she might be home at 8 o’clock passed out or it may be closing time. I never knew. The A and alcoholism were as one.

Extreme Independent Behavior with both situations.

As this was happening boundaries were starting to be built and enforced. My problem at first was going to extremes instead of seeing the middle ground where the real goal was. SEE MARKS POST

My goal was to get her into an inpatient alcoholism treatment even if it meant the end of the M. This whole time as weird as it may sound she was going to AA meetings and staying sober 5 days 15 days sometimes 30 days. The M at that point was in extreme withdrawal.
I got her parents involved. They knew very little about the situation. Every chance I had I would invite them to stop at the house when she was passed out or extremely strung out.
They had no clue how far it had gone. Together we persuaded my w to go to treatment. In Dec of 06 she entered and has been sober since.

I have found my way to change by working my programs, using MB’s articles/books for M advice and to be open to change.

I have always lurked in and out on this site but now my WW has 13 months of sobriety and has gave up her A (I AM SURE) about a year ago.

She has acknowledged the A and has apologized sincerely to me three times.

I find myself at the point where It may be possible reverse out of the Al-Anon teachings-protect yourself emotionally from the alcoholic behavior-
To MB principles. I have carefully let my guard down in small areas checking to see if it was safe. If it is not safe I cover back up with my defenses.

At this point now she is starting to ask how we can possibly get M going again. I am cautious b/c her sobriety seems strong but a lot of LB’s still exist. Over the course of time here mine have gone way down. By no means am I perfect.

The story is similar in 1986/1987. Alcohol use by both of us was a major factor in A’s then. There was no real recovery for either of us at that time.
I had several 1NS when drinking and even after I became sober woke up to her in the middle of an A. NOT PRETTY>AT ALL I started an A then. REAL MATURE duh??????

I would like to use the MB program for us although she has been resistant to MC or any type of program. Iv’e tried to introduce MB’s ideas and found resistance to them also.

My real question for this board is

Are the stories out of the LB’s book the only success stories there are with MB’s concerning alcohol/addictions M’s?

Is there anyone out there who has lived a share of their life emmeshed in alcoholism/addiction and ended up in MB recovery???

Would anyone be willing share a success story???

I hope some feed back or questions may trigger new ideas that I may be able to use.

Rocky-Formerly Known as Chris


Me 49 –
WH 1987
A/CD treatment 8/1986
DS 24
DD 14
Married 25 yrs
WW 43
EA/PA –1986/1987 A Ended after 1 ½ yr seperation-NC w/OM for 4 months-Me N/C w/OW for 3 mo after W asked me to give her up
Mutual agreement to get back together
A/CD treatment 1988
EA/PA 2004?—10/2006? Mixed w/alcohol relapse
Treatment 12/06 W-Just wants to leave A in the past-“WE” know what to do
Me-Houston-We have a problem (we need to work on) here

G-d I hope so, because that will be my story and I can't believe I would be the first.

I can't concentrate totally on what you are saying, but I will be back as this could be part of my story.

I am a recovering addict/alcoholic with almost 21 years of sobriety. However, up until 5/23 of this year I hadn't been in AA meeting for over 14 years. And I lived in a dry drunk. My WH has 18 years sobriety and hasn't been to a meeting in that long a time as well.

I say I am recovering because through this devastation I have found myself back in the rooms of AA and realized that I am an addict/alocholic/all around additive person. My life was unmanageable and I lived a crazy existence.

While I completely but into the ADDICTION/AFFAIR concept, the hardest part is that this one is cunning and baffling because the signs are as obvious as if someone was using. My WH is in complete denial about life. He is searching for something that he won't find in anyone but G-d and working a program. He couldn't because he is an addict/alcoholic.

I HATE THIS DISEASE.. I think in some ways I wish he were using so it would appear more obvious. The impact that this A has had on our family is worse than any drugging or drinking we ever did, and we destroyed ourselves financially.

I wish you well on this journey you are on and want to follow along and support you if you like. This is a tough road, but thankfully G-d is in our lives if we seek him and walk in FAITH that there is SOMETHING BETTER PLANNED FOR US.

Hey Rocky FKA Chris, thanks for posting this. I'd been wondering where your 'story' was at. I was sure you had one, as you're usually dead-on, but I didn't find any evidence.

"My story" is sure to be a "success"...whether my M survives this or not. SIL reminded me today that H has been living this way since he's 14, and I'm the first person who ever got in his way - a little bit - and I may be the last judging by his mom & sister's attitudes. But my story will be one of SUCCESS because I made a promise to my kids: that alcohol will no longer rule or ruin our lives. And I don't take promises lightly. And I DON'T lie to my kids.

I'm going to Favorite this one. Thanks again for posting!

I am so watching this unfold and cheering you on girl....

Yes, you can balance a good Al-Anon program with Marriage Builders, but it requires a very solid foundation in the 12 steps.

The problem that Dr. Harley points out about addiction and the codependency movement, is that when detachment is practiced in a situation with healthy people, it harms the relationship.

Where dysfunction reigns supreme, however, it is a different story.

I live with an active alcoholic who has not sought out recovery. I am happy and while my marriage can't be called a perfect MB marriage, it is far stronger and more solid that it was in the 10 years before his affair. I walk a fine line of detachment and boundaries, avoiding love busting and meeting emotional needs. It requires very clear understanding of what is a healthy need that should be met and what is simply enabling the addiction. It requires patience, and the ability to meet your own unmet needs in a healthy way. This is why you must have a very solid grounding in the appropriate way to work the 12 steps, lest it undermine your MB program or vice versa. In many cases, especially where there is abuse and dangerous behavior, it ought not to be tried.

We've been in marital recovery since 2001. My husband is on his own journey when it comes to alcohol.

Here is my thread on the topic: Lemonman - an answer to your ?

This is interesting to me, and I'm glad you've shared in this thread & I will read the thread you linked too. In an Al-Anon meeting not too long ago, one of the "leaders" or whatever he is, the people who "head up" the meetings, was telling a new-comer she should go to such-and-such meeting cuz there's 2 women he thinks she should meet. They both live with active alcoholic husbands & "they're very happy".

Now, I know Al-Anon isn't about THEM, it's about US, and how WE deal with THEIR problem. That said, I found it very odd that 2 people (and you too) live with active alcoholics & are happy. It made me wonder...once again actually...was I wrong to put H out? Obviously the ultimatum I gave him was quite harsh & the likelyhood of him saying, "OK, you're right, I'm going to check in to rehab today so we can stay married" (knowing he's been miserable w/me too) was very very slim.

It's just weird. I don't judge you, or think I'm any better or worse off than you, I just find it strange you're sticking with an active alcoholic. My mom spent my childhood and now my adulthood with my actively alcoholic dad, and I'm here to tell you it never was and still isn't good. And even if she got into Al-Anon (she's never been) I can't see how she'd be "happy". So, I hope I didn't offend. Just very hard for me to understand.

Julie, why did you boot him if you were so happy and things were going so well? If that is the case, then you definitely made a mistake and should invite him on back. On the other hand, if what you told us is accurate, and he has been abusive and you have been miserable in a very dysfunctional relationship, then maybe you should stick to what Dr. Harley advises, and that is PLAN B for a practicing alcoholic.

As a recovering alcoholic with 22 years of sobriety, I will point out a simple true fact, and that is that a practicing alcoholic does not love in the normal sense of the word. Our first and only love is alcohol which counts out a marriage partner. We do not have normal emotions and reactions like non-alcoholics.

It concerns me greatly, Julie, to see you second guess a well thought out decision about your marriage. I know you miss your H and are looking for reasons to bring him back so I can understand why you are having second thoughts. If you believe you can live with him AS HE IS - and worse, because alcoholism is a progressive disease - then you should bring him back. But you should not have any illusions that you can change him. You will no longer have a right to complain, because you will have become a volunteer, not a victim.

Can you accept him AS HE IS?

What to Do with an Alcoholic Spouse

Introduction: Alcohol addiction is a clear example of what I call a Love Buster because it causes so much suffering in marriage. Besides being physically and emotionally harmful to alcoholics themselves, addiction is also harmful to those whose lives touch them. Addiction makes people insensitive to the feelings of those who care most for them, and they will stop at nothing to feed their addiction. I am witness to many people whose lives have been ruined because they married alcoholics.

Alcoholics commonly engage in their most painful habits while under the influence. Acts of infidelity are common. The fact that he or she is drunk at the time is no consolation to a grief-stricken spouse.

Women often suffer cruel physical and emotional abuse from their alcoholic husbands. Even when he is not overtly abusive, he's often disgusting in the way he talks and behaves when he's drunk.

<snip>

One of the first things I do when couples see me for counseling is to evaluate them for drug and alcohol addiction. If I feel that either is addicted at the time, I refer the addicted spouse to a treatment program. The Love Buster, drug or alcohol addiction, will prevent them from resolving their marital conflicts because it controls them. It must be eliminated before marital therapy has any hope of being successful.

My job as a marriage counselor begins after successful treatment and sobriety. If the addicted spouse refuses treatment, then I direct the unaddicted spouse to Alanon or some other support group for spouses of alcoholics. Sometimes, I encourage an intervention.

That's what I learned to do after discovering that an alcoholic is so much in love with alcohol, that while in the state of addiction, there is no way for them to consider their spouse's feelings whenever they make decisions, a necessary condition for a great marriage. Alcohol always comes first, even when it is at the spouse's expense.


entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048a_qa.html

Chris, to answer your question, I am not aware of any success stories where the addict/alcoholic recovered and then went onto recover the marriage. That doesn't mean there aren't any, only that I know of none.

This is not surprising given that only 10% of alcoholics ever recover. Dr. Harley might know of a some, but I personally don't.

Mel, are you mad at me? Have you been keeping up, but growing more angry? I've wondered this, not just now.

You & I both know I'm not going to bring him back. 90/90 is the VERY LEAST and THIS YEAR, I'm sticking to it!! Yes, I have weak moments - very, very sad, weak, woe is me, pity party weak moments. And my strong moments are just as strong. Yes, I DO love him AS HE IS...between Fridays/binges...but it makes me hate me! So that ain't happenin'

I'm sorry for the thread-jack. I shouldn't have posted my inquiry prior to reading the thread she linked, which I've been reading since I posted. That was wrong of me. I'm going to bookmark her thread. And hopefully, as I recover & learn in Al-Anon, I will learn to read or listen before I post or speak!! Although I'll admit, even as I read her posts, I am happy for her she's found peace, but the peace she has isn't peace I want - it's not for me - I'm in too deep and I PROMISED my kids it's over. BR, again, I don't mean to offend.

So once again, Mel, I'll ask you to PLEASE stick with me. I need you. You know I do. I'm having a good, strong day today. But I'm sure to fall again. I just know it.

Julie, thanks for the clarification. I strongly believe that the strategy you chose for your OWN marriage is the right one for you. And sure, I could be wrong, but I am willing to bet you are not prepared to accept him how he is or accept living in an abusive, dysfunctional marriage.

And no, I am not mad at you at all! {{{{{{{{{JULIE}}}}}}} I have been watching your thread and seeing that you are getting EXCELLENT support from other Alanons like Chris [nesre] and sickofthis. I think you need to talk about the day to day and settle into your new routine, and I think they are better equipped to help you there. I am still here!

When I read your thread, I often think, 'I so wish she lived by me so I could help her.' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It makes me sad for you that your parents are not more helpful.

You are a great kid, Julie! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Julie, you missed the entire part of my post where I said that what I am doing requires a firm grounding in the 12 steps.

You can be happy whether the alcoholic is drinking or not.

I am happy. My life is not perfect. Happiness is a choice and my responsibility - for which I do not depend on someone else to change so that I can have peace and happiness.

You are not even close to having a firm grounding in the 12 steps. It took me years to get to where I am at.

In no way should my post be interpreted as a encouragement for you to stop doing what you are doing and to bring your abusive alcoholic husband home.

I didn't miss the point. I skipped ahead & asked you a question cuz I don't get it. I've since read more. You're right - my 12 steps could use some lovin'. That they will get, let me tell you...

Misery is a choice I reject. Misery is a choice I reject. Misery is a choice I reject. Misery is a choice I reject.

(Your words! (To live by!!))

Dear Nesre,

You asked:
"Is there anyone out there who has lived a share of their life emmeshed in alcoholism/addiction and ended up in MB recovery???

Would anyone be willing share a success story???"

My husband and I are a success story. Some of there Veterans out there may remember us from posts back in 1999 - 2001 . Its been a long time! I stop in every once in a while and haven't been on here for a long, long while.

I don't know how far back the message board goes but if it goes back that far I'll see if I can find our 'success story' to repost for you. We've been recovered for close to 10 years now. Long story short, it was answered prayer.

God bless,
AW

Hi AW,

Congratulations on your recovering success. I hope you can find your success story. Could you also please post it or link it to the Success Story thread (link in my sig line)?

Thank you,
Ace

Hey Nesre!

I will help in any way that I can! I don't know much about alcoholism, but you are in the hands of the best with ML and others.

Hope you have a great day!

To all who posted

From the bottom of my heart I appreciate it.
I will respond.

Don't ya just hate it when you go to work and they keep interupting your important personall stuff!!!

Rocky

Thanks for posting your story, Rocky. It helps me to see where you are coming from too. And its painful for me to read...

I obviously can't answer your question-- but you already knew that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

RIM

QNL
Thanks for posting. It really means alot to me.

Your situation sounds a lot like mine.

You sound like someone I really can relate to. Do you know who Joe and Charlie are?



What I was implying here is that the two-active addictions alcoholism and an A had my gauges all off kilter. I know from my part how cunning baffeling and powerful alcohol is to me. I being sober and caught up in her alcoholism was thrown totally off with the mixture of the two. I think w/o the active alcoholism the guages would have possibly been clearer to read.
Does that make sense?

I would like your support and I will try to catch up on your thread.


Rocky

Nesre,

I don't know about recovering addict first, recover marriage second senario, I am sure there are as alcohol and drugs abuse is so prevelant.

I have seen stories where a recovering addict engaged in an A and the marriage was recovered, I think Pep is one of them.

In my case my FWH was boarderline alcoholic for many years. I begged, pleaded, never threatened but maybe should have. He was hospitalized a couple of times with it or due to risky behavior bc of over drinking. I am sure that it contributed to his first A. It was the health problems that made him stop, he only drinks very occassionally and never over drinks. That is why I say boarderline bc I don't think that an alcoholic can stop drinking once they start. However, the risky behavior of an alcoholic translates easily to the risky behavior of someone in an A. At least those that came out the other side of A's (waywards) describe it like an addiction.

Me, I drank until my early 20's and very rarely until his A. Not a good coping strategy for that or anything really.

It is by prayer and some growing up on my part that helps. And I want to be a positive example to my sons.

I would classify my M as recovering, not recovered.

Good luck in your journey,

nab

Thanks for the hope. I deeply appreciated what you wrote.

I think in the back of my mind I want this perfect MB M
at some point down the road.

Probably not gonna happen but something real good may work.





Maybe time and practice will help to get me to that point.

Thats probably where I am at now. I try to walk that fine line but unfortunately fall off at times.

I will be reading your thread in the near future.
Thanks again


Rocky

Not exactly, but close.
My H was drinking during his A. In fact, his drinking increased a LOT during the last 6 months of his A.

He stopped drinking the day after our "D-day".
He remained a dry drunk for awhile.
Our MC told me (in private) that in his experience, it was harder to recover after infidelity if one spouse is a dry drunk. Dry drunks have no way to "medicate" their overwhelming anxiety, they've cut themselves off from their liquid "medication". PLUS, dry drunks have not learned life coping skills and are usually in an arrested state of development - coping skills very much like a younger teenager. Very emotional and moody (understatement).

I told my dear H that unless he went to AA, I was [color:"red"]O V E R[/color] and [color:"red"]O U T[/color].

I do not make threats. I do not say things I do not mean. He knows this.

He reluctantly went to AA.
Then one day, it 'clicked' .... and he started to work the steps.
He's such an amazing man now.
I admire him and respect him so very much .... oh, and love? ~~~> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> in every position possible for people our age ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Pep,

Thanks for the clarity, I am not familiar with the term "dry drunk". Explains two of my siblings that stopped drinking but haven't addressed some of their issues.

So glad to see that Mr. Pep is one of the 10% that is recovering.

LOL on the last statement!

Hope I can get to that point!!

Thanks for posting--I hope it all "clicks" for W soon.
If I can ask-How long b-4 it clicked?

Your post gives me hope

Thanks

Rocky

I know this thread is about alcohol addiction, but does anyone know if the lessons learned/methods of recovery also apply to sex addiction?

To nesre: I really like your posts and advice to others here; I'm glad you started a thread. Thank you for joining and helping others here as you seek clarity for yourself. I wish you all the best in your marriage recovery!

~Saturn

Nab

Thanks for posting. It really helps to see where other people are at in all this mess.

I would just like to add that it aint pretty when a dry drunk realizes where they are at but continues to do the same things over and over.



I wish you well. Hope to catch up on the threads and catch yours.

Thanks

Rocky

Mel


Thanks for your response.

I am finding now that there is hope. Maybe slim but hope is still hope. It seems more stories keep coming.

I chose to be a voluntary victim by letting my alcoholic WW back into the house after a 6 mo. seperation in 2004. I would not recommend it to anyone.
By then I was heavy into Al-Anon and AA.
The guys on the link below plus all the support around me broke the dry drunk and supported me.
I cried like a baby when I got to the third step


.


http://www.xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=category&id=13

These are short mp3's and I know in the first or second one the answer to the low %'s in alcoholism recovery (OPINION)
is answered.

After my spritual awakening the only reason I chose that role was to try to get my W into a treatment program. There was very little left of the M. I set my own time limit at 1/1/07. She went into treatment 12/06. At this point still a dry drunk. She even has realized this in the past week or so and has talked about it so I hope it leads her to dig further into recovery.

I am very cautious to talk about M relationship.
Maybe soon it will "click".

Mel, I want to thank you. After lurking for a long time I have watched time after time where you have jumped into situations and been a voice of reason. In situations where bounderies need to be set I now think-What would be in between-not extreme-still get the goal accomplished. What exactly do I need for me to make this work?

YOU ARE ONE OF THE PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD THAT HAVE HELPED ME GET TO THAT POINT IN MY LIFE.

A thousand thank you's


Rocky

Yes, I believe this to be true as well -- but I think it's true for many drunks in general (not just dry drunks) -- especially when they started drinking in their teens. You don't see this point addressed very often, but it makes a lot of sense when you really think about it.

LP

Saturn Rising



I do not understand sex addiction what so ever but I googled in s addiction and the first one that popped up "works the 12 steps"

http://www.sexaa.org/

To me-JMO-if a person truly works the steps to the best of their ability then some type of spritual awakening will occur. It may be an educational awakening-"not bright lights or stars" but could be a slow awakening or several small epiphanies.-- moments of clarity and growth about themselves

JMO -everthing we are talking about could pertain to recovering w/sex addicts and M.

This thread is about Alcoholism/addiction but all the same "rules" (how the addiction works) pretty much apply about any addiction. The difference is that I do not understand gambeling/shopping/food/sex addiction-To my brain those things don't matter or I seem to have common sense when it comes to them


BUT alcohol still after 21 years

Out of the blue talks to me-

Says

Its been such a long time -it would be OK just once
It will be different this time
You desrve it
You earned it
You can always quit again
NOBODY NEEDS TO KNOW

Thats why a support system is so important. Remember-Actions speak louder than any words when it comes to any type of recovery.

Maybe give the website a look

Hope it helps. REMEMBER JMO

Rocky

Thank you Rocky!

I have joined an S-Anon group (like Al-anon) and I'm learning slowly. I have co-dependent tendencies, that's for sure! I just don't know if everything that can be said for alcohol addiction can be translated to my husband's situation.

Like:
*MB program doesn't work for addicts
*Addicts can't love anyone, just their addiction
*Addicts have to go through recovery alone: spouses can't really help them (otherwise they are "codependent")
etc.

Thank you again Rocky and my best wishes for you and your family!
~Saturn

SaturnRising

Sorry I did not see this earlier.


Good for you. How long ago?


I have never been involved in their program but when a person has co-dependant tendincies I think it pretty much works all the same around the addicted person.

For alcoholics they estimate approximately 8 people are affected by the addicted person.



Plan A is a disaster for using addict and emotionally drains the spouse.
If SA-non is like al-anon then we have to become emotionally detached at times to protect ourselves from the behaviors.



I don't know if I totally agree with all of this. I know my W loved me even though she was sick. When she was her better self she was capable of showing love.
The addiction was so strong though that any empathy to the people surrounding her was lost when the use was started.
It is a sick kind of love. Not exactly a healthy love. [
When push came to shove the addiction won out. It blinds the person from seeing or feeling whats going on around them.



Addicts have to do all the work in recovery. A spouse can support them if they chose to. I would say at this time you are supporting the recovery the best you can w/your group.
Learning new ways to protect yourself emotionally may help to heal or your M.

I'm sorry I haven't read your thread yet so I may be talking out of line here.

I will try to catch your thread soon. Some get so long on here it takes a while.

I wish you the best
added
Went back and read your posts only. I see........


Rocky

Hi again Rocky!

I don't want to hijack your thread! You are very kind.

You asked about my thread- I have several, and they probably don't make sense because my story keeps changing!

Short version:
I had an online affair (emotional, not sexual) with an ex-boyfriend. I found MB, ended the affair, and started posting here.

I learned better communication techniques using the MB program; tried them out on my husband and they worked. He confessed to several physical affairs. I freaked!

We started marriage counseling and both of us posted here for a while. After a year, I noticed that our marriage was still the same (not better). He was still distant and still lying to me.

Last month he confessed that he's SA. Our counselor told us we needed to find a new therapist with a background in addiction. We did that, I started reading, and I began S-Anon meetings a few weeks ago.

This is all very new to me, which is why I was interested in your thread and have been helped immensely by your posts to Julie. Thank you again for coming here and for your advice. I wish you the best!

~Saturn

Since you didn't receive the props you deserve from the person who should have given them, I will tell you myself....GREAT JOB on RIM's thread. You took so much time and effort putting that all together! You have a big, generous heart of GOLD! We are lucky to have you on this site.

THANK YOU NESRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nesre...did you see my post to you? Thought you may have missed it over the weekend..?

Resonance

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I did see it earlier but then work gets in the way of my personal stuff.
Also was watching shocked and sad-falling down the board
May want to check it out.

Thanks for the compliment. I wish I could do more but now I think its best just to sit back. For a long time nobody could help me........so I understand??????

She changed her name to tea tea at some point over the w-e

I've got nasty old dial up at home and it takes me about 15 minutes just to get to the site so I stay off it at home.

Thanks again

Rocky

SHORT STORY


But even after sobriety is achieved, it's an uphill battle for the couple. The spouses of alcoholics are usually so relieved when treatment is successful that they often think their marital troubles are over. It's true, addiction makes it impossible to resolve marital conflicts. But sobriety itself doesn't solve them -- it simply makes them solvable. Once addiction is overcome, a couple is faced with the legions of other Love Busters that were ignored in the shadow of addiction or were created by addiction


Two recovering alcoholics under one roof.

We are the couple from the LoveBusters-book only ours has been spread out over a 25 year M.

Lots of LB’s DJ’s AO fights and aurguments back and forth.

ME-One-night-stands during the two years of drinking. (1984-1986) I have had problems w/alcohol since age 14 with on/off stretches of sobriety)
WW 1987
I have been sober since 1986-Dry drunk until 2003-Started going to Al-Anon-(To save the M and to get W to quit drinking)
Thank God the group encourage me to go back and get my own sobriety in order…
With AA.
I work the 12 steps to the best of my ability following the Big Book and still attend
Al-Anon occasionally..

HER
WW 1985-1986?
Alcohol treatment 1988
10 years of sobriety
1999-Relapse w/alcohol
2004-2005?? WW-won’t discuss details-just want to move on
12/2006-Alcohol treatment-Still sober to date. Still won’t discuss details-just wants to move on

EXTREMELY DYSFUNCTIONAL AT TIMES IN THE PAST .-Getting better now.

I ended up lurking on this board for 4 years on and off.

I have read the books HNHN SAA LB’s and I do have a good concept of MB’s principles. Have not always applied them well.

At this point I need the advice of this board. She has approximately 14 months of sobriety.

As she has progressed with her recovery from alcoholism it becomes more apparent that a true WW is buried in all the crap but the A is over..
I have had a lot of time to read over the winter and have followed several new and old threads with all the side trails over the past few weeks. It really helped to educate me

She has tried to re-write some history-This is hard b/c going back to my own alcoholism and A’s my memory is very foggy as to details
I have heard the ILYBINILWY-several times although not lately
We got M too young-
I never loved you-
We should D and just be friends-but live together??!!??
Infatuation is love in her world-That’s what she desires now from me
Sweeping it all under the rug?

If what she has said is true about the A then its been over for about two years. I have “snooped” after excellent opportunities for her and found nothing. I truly believe the A has been dead for some time.

With the mixture of alcoholism, A and time span I know I missed opportunities that may have helped work for us.

My question is where do I pick up and proceed from now?

Do I pick apart each problem or LB daily and post about it?

I would really appreciate some feedback.

My goal is to try to Aproof this M. I will never go through what I have been through in the past again.
I don’t know with our situation if we can achieve the perfect MB’s M but I would at least like to try to get to a point where M is rewarding for both for us.


Rocky

Me 49 –
1-NS-? Stray dog 1985-1986
WW 1987
A/CD treatment 8/1986
DS 24
DD 14
Married 25 yrs
WW 43
EA/PA –1986/1987 A Ended after 1 ½ yr seperation-NC w/OM for 4 months-Me N/C w/OW for 3 mo after W asked me to give her up
Mutual agreement to get back together
A/CD treatment 1988
EA/PA 2004?—10/2006? Mixed w/alcohol relapse
Treatment 12/06 W-Just wants to leave A in the past-“WE” know what to do
Me-Houston-We have a problem (we need to work on) here

Need help!!!!!!!!!!!!

Alcoholic wife
Been through treatment seven times.

I have a good concept of the MB principles

The last discussion we had b4 she left treatment in DEC 2006 was no more drinking and no more A's. I am 99% sure she stayed sober and realatively sure she stayed away from [censored]. They were drinking buds.(Quite a bit more goin on than just drinkin)

Her sobriety has not gone all that well. Basically she is a dry drunk. There is no fun in sobriety---ANYWHERE>

M has been stalled and in one of my last posts I came to the conclusion the WW is still in there. I hate it when I am right.

Last night I stayed late in town for a meeting. Come home and there is her vehicle- parked in front of the bar- [censored] vehicle is there to. This is at 9 oclock. Nothing until 230 AM. She roles in and is drunk. I have not talked to her - don't really want to talk to her--

THIS IS THE DEAL BREAKER

I am ready to file and if I could get -r done by tonight I think I would sign and be done with the M.

I really want to take the right steps this time.
I procrastinated and mixed up everything I was trying to do and made a big mess of it all. I have been very tolerant patient and kind since 1999 when she relapsed. I found the MB program about 4-5 years ago and have worked really hard on cleaning up my own LB"s

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH OF THIS HEADF**K GAME> ALCOHOLISM/AFFAIRS

At this point a 2 bedroom apt anywhere but here and my 14 yr old DD staying with me as much as possible looks very appealing.

MY PROBLEM/QUESTIONS

NEED GUIDANCE--DEFINATELY READY TO LISTEN AND ACT

How do I legally get her out of the house? When we were seperated before I ran a flimsly Plan B. She walked all over it. Even broke into the house to be here and then wouldn't leave.

While I was laying in bed (not sleeping) I was running Intermediarys through my head. I think I have a very good one if she will do it.

Should I file for D as quickly as possible? I am prepared for the outcome whatever it may be. Then drag my feet? I know I may feel different in a week.

Do I allow her to take anything from the house besides her personal stuff?

How do you tie up credit cards? She has little income-During last flimsy PLB she used them basically to tie the gap in income. I had the DD 70% of the time and everything that goes along with a house to pay for.

Pull all the money from joint accounts and use it to keep paying the bills? Basically cut her off financially (except her pay check) until something legal is established?

Exposure?? I will (as low as it may seem) be testing for contact today. Should I find out there has been contact (drinking and renewal of the A) should I scorch the Earth?

My thoughts when I formulate a PLB letter is to send it to

her--- parents/ 2 brothers/boss at work/close friend at work/[censored]

ME--my parents/2 brothers 1 sister/My empoyer already has been aware of the sit in the past but will be updated.

Would this be going to far or not far enough with exposure???????

Had to post and get this started. Its not the path I would chose for myself or any one else.

Please help if you can

Rocky

Rocky,

<threadjack>

I don't know I you saw, but TeaTea(Regret_Is_Me) posted some very disparaging remarks about this forum and the people that tried to help her over in "Recovery". Specifically, she made some very mean insluting remarks directed at my wife(Resonance/LaLa). I was wondering if you had time, would you please stop over there and add your comments since you were also one of the more vocal posters that tried to help her. She's claiming everyone has ignored her!

Having a rough time......(TeaTea)

</threadjack>

Sorry to hear about your situation. I'll let LaLa know you are having problems and see if she has any advice for you. Hang in there!

Want2Stay

Hey Nes,

Boy am I sorry to hear this! I'm also sorry that I don't feel I can be much help...you're the one who's helped me! I'll be keeping up w/this thread though & offer support where needed.

I'll tell you, as I posted this morning, Plan B has been a God-send. Easy? Not even a little bit. Scary? Terribly so. But I'm getting stronger & I've got one he!! of a support system & I've never felt better about the current state of things. Even beneath the mild panic & derailments, life is good.

I will tell you this: secure your finances NOW. Don't give her the chance to plunder your funds - she (likely) will! I tried play nicey-nice, and I was rewarded by paying H's rent! And other misc. charges! Probably good to file too, D or LSA, so you can get the DD situation straightened out & also to let your W know you're for real. I think that's what's got my H reeling right now - this isn't how we usually play - I usually give in or let him home or even beg him to come home! Not this time!!

Best to you, be strong, and I'll be watching.

P.S. RIM/TeaTea has "left" the board so I'm not sure if your time or energy is well spent on her thread(s). Just sayin'

I'm so sorry nesre...I know you are hurting...

You know you need to protect yourself from her. It doesn't really matter if you feel differently in a week, yanno. I hate to say that, but the way you are feeling now needs to be your motivator. You cannot control her...you need to be well and you deserve so much better.

I think my "advice" would be based on what YOU want to happen, because I am a little unclear (you prolly are too, as you are understandably reeling). Do you want to save your M or is this really the deal breaker?

If you want to save the M, then I would say DARK Plan B, exposure, and heal yourself.

If you are DONE, then file and move out (if she won't) until the courts divide everything up.

The key here, either way, is to protect yourself from more destruction- emotionally and financially. Julie is right...if she is drinking again, she will clean you out financially, especially if she feels you are done and leaving/D. She will think of noone but herself...you know this.

I am just so sorry you find yourself here once again. I know you had much hope this time that things would be better once she was sober for a while. You know who you can control in this scenario, though...please take care of yourself and be well. Hopefully someone with more experience will be around to help you, too. As I have said before-this isn't something (alcoholism) that I have dealt with, and all I know is that Dr. Harley says you cannot Plan A someone while they are hooked, and Julie's Plan B seems to be working for HER own happiness.

I wish you all the best...and thank you from the bottom of my heart for the help on the other thread. It meant a lot to me!

(((((nesre)))))

Julie

Thanks for your support.

I guess the next few days will tell exactly the direction I am going to go.

Its great to see you happy and doing so well.

Wife called 3 times today while I am at work. Its just like she never quit. It was sixteen months.

Says she found out from this (last night was the 1st time) that theres no doubt in her mind shes alcoholic...Do ya think????

Drinking only-I may try PLB

If [censored] was involved I really think I mam done.

Sorry I haven't been on. Been too busy at work.

I pray for you guys every night-Even your H.

Gotta Run

Rocky

Resonance

I could always live with W's drinking. It was when she became involved with the OM it all got crazy..It was like a weird line that I crossed and I can't get back on the right side of it. It is within me.

I am going to do some snooping (because I have the capability)
and if he was involved (SEX) that would be the deal breaker.

If it truly was a drunk PLB would be better because I truly would like to save the M.

Mix A + A and it just gets to crazy.

Thanks for your support

Rocky

Looking for help possibly from Princess Meggy??


Not exactly sure how to contact someone on the board so I hope someone can get the message to
to her and see if she can look my thread over.

I read through your recovery story and can really relate. More than once you said you wish you had known about MB's principles and the help here on the board. How it may have made a big difference.

I've been lurking for about three years and seldom post. I know I come from a different side (Al-Anon + AA ) living with an active alcoholic. I use MB to help myself with LB's and also to get a good grip on what a good M looks like. Still things get crazy.

Heres where things are at now and why I am looking for possibly help from you.

WW went back to drinking in March. (She had about 18 mo's-DRY ONLY & Miserable.) At that time I was debating over it being a deal breaker. Decided to sit and see what was going to happen with A and alcohol. I think PA ended in 12/2006 but EA may still be real. Try to stay detached/ protected kind of living my own life but yet supportive when she maintains some sobriety. Have gone through many cycles over the past months with short periods of sobriety and binges.

WW things also such as

OM phone # appearing once on home phone
Her-Telling me OM was at a certain bar and she left and went elswhere
OM Driving into his place 1 minute after she drives in here after she has been gone drinking for hours-has happened several times

I KNOW-2x4's om lives close by-I Have tried to get her to move-I am more than willing to move

Put vehicle 1 in the ditch-doesn't remember exactly where or who pulled her out-
Cigarette ashes on the passenger side of the vehicle-Who was with you?
Passenger seat tilt adjusted back in the vehicles- when no one has been with you
Bought DD a decent car in Sept-Hit (drunk) telephone pole Dec 2008-$1800 in damage
Lots of drunk stuff-Coincedences-????

It is a mixture of WW and alcoholic "normal".

WW is highly intellegent (IQ proves it). She has an angels heart when it comes to working with special needs children-mainly autistic. She always has. At times before she started drinking our R has been very good. PERFECT_-_-? MB M?? ---NO WAY but good.

She has been called by alcohol counselors as a high functioning drunk. She can consume large volumes-could drink a lot of good men under the table-and still walk - talk - spit- and touch her a$$ with both hands - But ask her the next day what she did that night and she does not remember more than just the first hour or so.

One thing I have learned well from this board and all boards that deal with R's is that the addiction(s) needs to be dealt with b-4 any M recovery can begin.



HERES WHERE THE REAL QUESTION IS

SHE has stayed sober for the last 3 weeks. Has gone to a lot of AA meetings/church/met w/pastor

Still acts like a WW to me-Has turned all of history around (always has) and I am the bad guy. Mean and resentful to me. She treats DD 15 with care and trys to make up for her wrongs.

Was so bad last week I asked her if we could go to a M counselor. She agreed.

I called 2. Only one called me back Sat.


OF ALL THINGS MC WORKED DIRECTLY UNDER HARLEY FOR SEVEN YEARS!!!


WW talked to her and "POJA" (something new for us) We are scheduled for this Thursday.


With your past history would you have any advice on how I should persue this opportunity?

If you had been given a chance like this would you have done something totally different that may have really helped your situation?

Any advice on how to proceed with an Alcoholic in dry drunk and is a WW? May be active EA yet?

God knows I need all the help I can get and even if you don't think you can help me personally I would appreciate a prayer.


50 –YIKES!! BS
Married 27 yrs
A/CD treatment 8/1986
FWH 1987
Me N/C w/OW for 3 mo's after W asked me to give her up
Mutual agreement to get back together
DS 25 DD 15
Her
WW 44
EA/PA –1986/1987 A Ended after 1½ yr seperation-NC w/OM for 4 months-
Mutual agreement to get back together
A/CD treatment 1988 Relapse in 1998 6 treament programs since-none completed
EA/PA 2004?—10/2006? Mixed w/alcohol relapses-attempting to stay sober
Treatment 12/06 -Just wants to leave A in the past-“WE” know what to do
Until 3/2008 dry drunk-
Current-Mixed Alchohol relapses and brief dry stretches
EA? PA? ONS? Drunk?

Wow Nesre, you guys LIVE on a roller-coaster. I don't know what I can offer since when my H stopped drinking, he REALLY stopped. But he didn't stop with just that, he went through some intense counseling to get to the bottom of things. I don't think we would have made it if he had only stopped drinking. It would have been a matter of time (1 month, 1 year, 5 years) before he started again.

Your wife (and you) have battled alcohol-related problems for a long, long time. The affairs, AO, LBs, etc. are all part of that. Even if you learned the MB way... until your wife gets serious help, I don't see it being effective.

Another thing, I don't know if you are a believer, but God also played a HUGE part in the restoration of our marriage and my DH's inner healing. It wasn't until he was back-against-the-wall-no-where-else-to-go-I'm-gonna-die-if-I-don't-change that God was FINALLY able to do some serious work in him.

I would say to you as the Husband to get into church... humble yourself before God... get some intense counseling... and stay in AA, etc. (if that helps you). Hopefully, your wife will follow your lead... as she should. Then you can work the MB plans together as they are meant to be worked.

PM

Thanks for replying.

I printed your post out and will be in church Sunday. Started about 3 yrs ago. Quit going about 1 1/2 yrs ago.

The MC we see tommorow may be able to help me to find a personal C.

Definately will stay with AA.

Thanks again. If you say prayers at night please add an extra one for us if you can.

50 –YIKES!! BS
Married 27 yrs
A/CD treatment 8/1986
FWH 1987
Me N/C w/OW for 3 mo's after W asked me to give her up
Mutual agreement to get back together
DS 25 DD 15
Her
WW 44
EA/PA –1986/1987 A Ended after 1½ yr seperation-NC w/OM for 4 months-
Mutual agreement to get back together
A/CD treatment 1988 Relapse in 1998 6 treament programs since-none completed
EA/PA 2004?—10/2006? Mixed w/alcohol relapses-attempting to stay sober
Treatment 12/06 -Just wants to leave A in the past-“WE” know what to do
Until 3/2008 dry drunk-
Current-Mixed Alchohol relapses and brief dry stretches
EA? PA? ONS? Drunk?

EA? PA? ONS? Drunk?

I'll do better than that. I'll say one right now.

Nothing changes if nothing changes.

Just had to post since its only been about 10 months.

Extremely down.

WW alcoholic W in alcohol treatment again.

Let me back up. From the last post until Oct 15 drunk on and off again. Mostly on.

Got so bad DD16 and I had an apartment rented to move into Oct 25. WW basically bought more time by going to treatment.

Only thoughts I had was a solid PB. I was able to get out of the apartment deal and stay in my home. DD and I were ready to walk if she did not chose the treatment deal.

Saw IC last week. Talked about up coming end of treatment. In the past I have always tried to be very supportive. Last time in 2006 ended up being an angry sober WW. A started again after she went back to drinking. "They are only drinking Buds"
Discussed with IC at how to proceed. She was very straight forward as she saw us 3 times last winter. If WW grabs on physically, makes direct eye contact-body language in any way says I just wanna be close to you-Baby I'm sorry don't give up on me-Then cautiously go with the flow.

If you get the same old same old be prepared to move on with DD. Confrontional-wont make eye contact-digs way back into the past and uses it as a club-

Haven't really talked for 3 weeks since the phone time is limited. DD has been with at visiting (very limited also) so not much opportunity there.

Drove 100 miles one way last night to see the return of the "SOBER WW".

Upset at how I "Hurt her parents by exposing her Affair"
I did very limited exposure. My parents, hers. and my DD16.

The only thing I could say was are they upset by the knowledge or by the A itself? Did not go over well with WW. Thinks I did it just to belittle her.

I have a very good R with inlaws. I called them earlier and asked them there truthful opinion when I told them. They said they were not upset at all by the way I presented the news to them. They believed my intent was asking for help and support.
It also cleared up why their R with D was so messed up. Wouldn't return phone calls-make plans and not show and such.

Hey did ya know they just invented these new things called bounderies?? She was adiment about placing a bunch around me..........

What a wonderful way to spend 1 1/2 hours and then drive home 100 miles.

Looks like PLAN B still ahead. Disapointed and bummed

Nesre

So sorry. I'm sure you know by now that her comment was her self-defense mode so that she doesn't have to look at the REAL issue - HER.

I doubt she will ever be able to delve that deep inside.

Teach D16 a real lesson, and leave the drunk behind. D16 already has a really good chance of becoming an enabler just like you. Leaving W is probably the only chance you have of helping D16 NOT become like that.

CP

Thanks for your post.

Since posting DD and I are going through a 4 day family program at the rehab center. Each of us (DD and I) will be in seperate groups without W. W will even be out b-4 we go. This is something new 4 us.

Hoping this will give us each a new perspective on how we all interact as a family.

DD already has been affected and it is now coming out.
Currently is seeing an IC, and is in a support group at school. 3 weeek ago she asked me (after seeing her IC that day) to go to a NA meeting. She has had 2 experiences with drinking I knew about but appears pot really seems to be the problem. I took her that night and now she goes regularly.

DS 26 also lived with us until 20 years old. The last 2 years were straight out boundry breaking (drinking in the house). W would not let me toss him out (which I am now grateful 4) which was my first instinct. Instead we gave him generous deadlines to find work-apartment. It was kinda POJA between W and I.
We cleaned-painted-moved-filled his refrigerator-over a course of about 5 months. Biggest part was money 4 apartment. W's and his drinking played off of each other this whole time with each blaming the other.

He is still into heavy drinking and from time to time we hear stories from other people about "How we threw him out".
Extremely distorted.

I'm grateful because we accomplished the goal-living in his own space-with love, compaasion and kindness. I know the true story.

"I doubt she will ever be able to delve that deep inside."

I don't know either. This last week of her program is an intensive spirtual retreat. It was an add on to the program and she brought it up several times. Money was the issue since insurance does not pay 4 it. All I could do was support what ever her decision was as to going. (Used GRACE-Gently Released All Concious Expectations) Yesterday she made the final decision to go. It gives me a shred of hope again.

I truly believe our HP will work with us when we are ready. Is she ready? I can't answer 4 her.

I know PLB may still be needed to break this cycle we are all in. I am willing to ride it out just a little longer-3 months and see if the course we are on changes
I know my course needs to change. Implementing PLB may be the healthiest choice at some point ahead-just not today.


I post here b/c I do find a lot of info that i can apply to my own personal life and M. Actually I use a lot of different sources. CP you stated that you do not believe she will be able to delve deep inside. I was in her shoes several years ago. Hollow, empty, a shell of a human. By figuring out what I don't like about myself I am able to take small baby steps and fill that human back up again. With the good stuff.

My true hope is that if one person identifies with my sitch and does find some hope or strength then posting here has been well worth the time.


Nesre

I'm so glad your daughter's getting help!

Sounds hopeful. I'm a big believer in therapy, especially intensive therapy. Good luck.

Hey CP

I been reading through your thread with interest b/c I see some of the patterns WW and I are in. SOOO much ingrained communication and control. I see it with DD too. I see it in all of us.
The 8 page post from LA at the beginning of your posts is a big bite to chew on but makes sense in my world to. I'm going to print it off too.

My question today is she went to the spiritual retreat for a week so next Sunday she will be complete with the whole program.

With approximately 45 days of sobriety would this be the time to ask for N/C? I was checking her cell for the first 2 weeks of her program and heard messages from POSOM. I even forwarded one 2 my phone. Didn't know I could do that or I would have forwarded them all. She wasn't allowed her phone in treatment but had it in her possession.
Probably a mistake but I let her know I was checking her phone. I let her know the A at least from POSOM's point of view is not dead. She changed the pw and let me know I violated her privacy. No access to her phone.

She says POSOM is only a drinking R. I don't buy it. I have seen too much and know different.

I really do not want WW back. I would be exstatic to let newly sober W in and let her grow.
Is this the time to apply MB's principles. Have others had this type of experience?

My head tells me not to let WW back into the house w/o minimum agreement of

Continues recommended treatment plan for sobriety
N/C w/POSOM
Commitment to work on the M-POJA? Counseling/MB home study course?


Any ideas??

Nesre

[quote=MelodyLane]Unfortunately, many women have been taught that there is empowerment through victimhood, so in order to gain that power, they have to demonize MEN. Many women have an entitlement attitude that leads them to believe they are entitled to an affair; that they are somehow free to abuse (ALCOHOL/EMOITIONAL/VERBAL/A) their husbands (NESRE)and their children(DD) and no one will say anything about it. And men (NESRE)put(S) up with it!!

The WW's come here and are SHOCKED to discover that they the pity parade doesn't wash HERE. The posters here see right through it and hand them their asses. I agree that there is a double standard and that the mistreatment of men is largely ignored, while every grievance, real or imagined, towards women is magnified.

That being said, you MEN (NESRE)contribute(S) to this sad state of affairs by acting (BEING A)like doormats. How many times have we seen men come on this forum who abandoned their families just because some selfish, entitled wayward wife told him to get out so she could carry on her affair? (BEEN TOLD MANY TIMES IF I DON;T LIKE IT LEAVE) As long as you MEN (NESRE)act like DOORMATS, you will continue to be treated as such. And you have to take some PERSONAL responsibility for CONTRIBUTING TO YOUR OWN DEMISE. If you would stop lying down, you might not get walked over so badly!

I get real tired of having to tell men how to act like men around here. I am going to start charging you men commission for my work. (quote]

MEL-I HAVE NO IDEA IF YOU READ MY THREAD BUT DO YOU TAKE VISA OR MC?


Stolen from another thread but applies to me.

After 30 days away from AWW I am standing back like a 3rd person looking at what was supposed to be our M. Pure rediculous-crazyness-insanity. Not only from her but from me to willingly participate.

I was O&H with her last night on the phone and asked her to find an apartment to see if all this could be sorted out with space and time.
B-4 I can go any further with this R-M?(Not sure) I need to know that sobriety is a firm commitment and that N/C is really N/C.

I struggled with this all week as I can see my love has been unconditional instead of conditional. Big mistake.

It is a boundery I have never placed in the past and maybe thats why I have footprints ingrained on my forehead.

Nesre

BUMP

Bump

Hi.
I see this.
I had to LOL at the way I chose to end my post !


Shocking!