If you are a BS who had a FALSE RECOVERY
I am requesting you share about your FR

1. WHAT did you do that you wish you'd done differently?

2. WHAT clues did you miss (or ignore) that your WS was not ready for recovery?

3. WHAT lessons did you learn that you'd like to pay forward to others, so that they might avoid a FR?

Thanks!

Need help please.

Pepper,
This may be a stupid question. Could you first define false recovery?

I am the self proclaimed QUEEN of FR's.

What would I do differently? I would have done a better plan A in the beginning without the LB's and AO's AND I would have taken the advice given here repeatedly to go to a very dark plan B.

Excellent question !

FR = affair never ended or restarted during recovery

List so far:

1. Good plan A with minimal LBs and AOs
2. Very DARK plan B

1. WHAT did you do that you wish you'd done differently?
see above post

2. WHAT clues did you miss (or ignore) that your WS was not ready for recovery?

hmmm, leaving earlier for work so he could call the OW. Coming home later so he could call the OW.
Believing him when he said he didn't "hear" the phone ring when I called when in fact he was talking to the OW.
Not realizing that the end of phone calls showing up on the bill meant he had a secret affair phone with OW.
Not picking up on him asking me exactly WHEN I was going to call home when I went to a weekend retreat with DD.
Not questioning WHY DS's stroller had been in the car.
Accepting blame for his anger instead of realizing it was deflection so I wouldn't question what he was doing.
Thinking him spending all his time in the bedroom instead of with the family was part of some "depression".

3. WHAT lessons did you learn that you'd like to pay forward to others, so that they might avoid a FR?

Listen to your gut.
Do a solid plan A and then go to a dark plan B!!!
Don't accept blame for the affair.
Stop believing the wayward babble.

I honestly thought it included so much more. Thank you for clarifying that.
On that note I can't contribute to this discussion, but I can learn from it.

Does a one day recovery count?

FF, could you explain that one a little more?
Thanks.

Yes. I think your experience will be useful for other readers. (one in particular )

Sure! I was monitoring the cell phone bills on-line. During the period he claimed (I think this was FR # 3) that he was no longer talking to OW and sure enough the phone calls to and from her had stopped but the SIGNS of the A were still there, it turns out they went and got a cell phone account together so they could talk without prying eyes.

Did you ever find a secret phone, if yes, how?
What signs of the A specifically can you identify?
Thanks

During our first FR my WW wrote me the "all the right things letter".


Admitting to the pain it caused me, her, the kids, etc.
Working on trust, love, etc.

It was perfect. FR lasted maybe a week? Hard to say. She said I was to "smothering".

Hope this is something!

A REALLY useful piece of information!

1. Define your minimum requirements for recovery and a time frame.

I leapt on any possibility to recover with my ex on the barest efforts on his part - mostly talk.

I'll never forget the Sunday that we went to church together, and he stood up in church and asked for prayers for our marriage and recovery.

That same Sunday night, I caught him and the OW in bed together.

If I could do it over, I would INSIST that he have no contact with the OW before I even entertained the idea of recovering the marriage.

Hello !

My memory gets a bit fuzzy as the years go by, which is a blessing since those days tended to be rather dark in retrospect. I may have mixed up some of the details.

I had at least two or three (or 4) false recoveries. Each time I let him back too soon. The first one was around the holidays. That 'recovery' lasted until mid to late January...or sooner.

I let him back too soon without safeguards in place. He didn't get boundaries. He still felt very entitled especially to privacy...etc. He moved into an apartment for 4 months after that. I exposed to OW husband. She told him she was 'in luv' with mine...and wanted a D. He didn't try to save the marriage but went directly to D. The D took a yr and a half or two. They had 3 kids as did we.

This was all pre-MB. I made lots of mistakes and did lots of stupid things. I confronted the other woman at her house and when she lied to my face I slapped her across hers...she could have had me arrested, I suppose. I used to obsessively drive by WH's apartment or her house always trying to catch them. Then I tried to 'move on'...made WH a bit jealous....he became quite a fence sitter. I had an A with my H at some point. He moved back home.

Their no contact may have lasted a few months.
I think they tried to cool it for her divorce but it wasn't real.
He started locking his truck, being late or unreachable on his cell phone...being distant, criticizing almost everything I did or didn't do...even stupid little things of no consequence.

His excuse...when I figured it out...was that he just wanted to call and see how she was doing. I found a secret affair cell phone (which she provided for him) hidden in his truck...I found it while he was napping or something and I had found the spare key to his truck. The phone was in a red leather case hidden behind the seat in the box where the jack was kept. Actually, there may have been other false recoveries because I recall another time seeing the secret cell phone on his truck seat once...as though he wanted to be found out ending another false recovery. So, I may have some of these details mixed up.

We seemed to be doing well for a few months....had a honeymoon time...but there was still something entitled...without remorse, about his attitude. Once it was clear that they were back on...he moved in with her after her D was final in March. The A lasted another month or two...REALITY had set in. He wanted to come home. He moved in with a friend for a couple of months. I wouldn't let him come right home that time. He needed to get counseling, we got some counseling together. That A was on and off for about 4 yrs.

I had read Love Must be Tough...and a shelf full of other book including HNHN... but thought we were ok enough not to push it on him. After all, people thought we were newlyweds we seemed to happy together. We even renewed our vows in church.

Again, it was great for a while. But, he still didn't understand boundaries and why he needed them. I still felt that I couldn't bring up uncomfortable subjects with him...the A.

So, he became acquainted with another needy married woman...this one was rather pretty, younger. They became friends....I don't know if anything happened between them then but I found him at her house and it took several minutes for him to come out....he was in the bathroom. He claimed they were just friends. I was outraged.

He didn't see her after that until she called our office about a yr and a half later and I gave him the message. I had never learned her name before. Her husband had just left her so another affair was on. That lasted 8 months. I didn't find out it was the same woman the he had said he was 'just friends' with...at first I thought it was the OW with whom he had the 4 yr affair.

All the same signs came back again...the distance, the disappearing, lame excuses for not being available by cell phone, the criticism etc. I busted him with his cell phone records again. Studid guy. He still claims they 'only' had sex 2 times and he couldn't perform the last time. Even though we've been through MB and he has agreed to RH...I still doubt that it was only 2x. I wish I would have insisted on a polygraph...he said he wouldn't take one. I also imagine he was unfaithful many more times in our marriage when thinking about his marital behavior on and off. At one point he said he did...because he could...he has always lied easily...unfortunately.

This time, I reacted without emotion, I was calm...felt like I was done...I had had it....he could leave, we'd separates all our stuff...lives and we'd D. Then we went to speak with our priest at the time and he recommended we speak with a rational emotive behavior therapist. We saw him several times. He read Surviving and affair and seemed to 'get it'.

My H decided he didn't want a D, he ended the A. A few months later we went to the MB weekend (March 2003) and did the follow up. He was completely different this time. Remorseful, repentant...did lots of the footwork/actions himself. He now understands what he needs to do to maintain he personal boundaries...that he can't have woman friends without me...and he can't have intimate personal conversation with women.

This last year he worked out of state for the better part of 6 months. Dr. Harley says we shouldn't be separated of even one night. We are separated lots more than that...well, so far so good....but I don't like the situation. It is the main way he is earning a living right now. H constantly reassures me of his boundaries and what he is doing. So far, so good...but time will tell how this works long term. It is hard to reconnect right away when he comes back after being gone so long.

Before MB, I tried following Love Must be Tough and followed advice in that book at different points...but not consistently enough. I wish I had MB sooner rather than later. I found MB website in Dec. '02 and read about plan A and plan B. A light went on. I found the forum when we were already starting recovery a few months later...maybe after our MB weekend. Unfortunately, through all the false recoveries I had a bad case of Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome...and this whole subject has consumed way to much of my life. I can only hope that in the end I will be glad I chose to stay in this marriage. Our marriage is better than pre-A's but I sure wish I could have skipped this learning experience.

Now who on earth could that be hmmmm...

remorseful
repentant
boundaries
willing to walk the walk not TALK TALK TALK

shaddup - keep reading

Thank you Pepperband. Threads like this are always very helpful and informative.

We are almost at the 5 month mark and things are seeming to fall apart right now, not him but me. Still, this is something that will help me pull through I think. Validation, either way. I watch him all the time, I question but I suck at snooping.

LMAO Ok mom I am I am. It is good stuff. check ur email in few too.

Pep, I know your sending out a call for BS's so I hope you don't mind my intrusion.

N/C is a no brainer, but I negotiated my way around this during our FR. I told SMB it wasn't necessary, as I told her I had already taken care of that. I was not willing to be transparent on the N/C issue either.

In our FR, I also never told her 2 critical statements, "I was willing to do anything she asked", never agreed to, "do whatever it takes to recover our marriage".

During our FR, I also decided to keep my "Independent Behavior", "I needed my space". :RollieEyes:

During our FR, I also said I wanted to come home for the kids. In contrast to when I came home broken and repentant, I told SMB I wanted HER and then she knew I meant it.

You already know what I agreed to do when I asked SMB "to please have me back". SMB's list is in your notable posts thread. It would have been a mistake for SMB to take me back without my full agreement to her list of conditions.

I was HOPING for your intrusion

I'm glad you asked because I thought there was more to FR too.

My FWH's independent behavior was also something he didn't easily give up. We had been doing great with that until a few months ago. I had a problem with his making big decisions without POJA...unilateral decisions that I thought were hurtful, but in his mind he was wanting to protect us due to the economic downturn. He also doesn't seem willing to POJA his current job....nothing having to do with any OW...just his frequent travel requirement.

1. I wish I had made him wait longer to move back home. I made it way to easy. I wish I had made more of a song and dance about the NC Letter, about password access, and about spending time with me. I should have checked his cell phone after he told me he had deleted her number - he didnt, he just listed it under her middle name. Should have looked more carefully at his FB account, although there wasnt alot there it did show ongoing contact.

2. His going away to his house in Wellington all the time (at least once a week for 2-4 days each time). Crying and anger that i had assumed was withdrawl. His telling me he wasnt interested in my "12 step programme". lack of care and concern for my feelings. The way he would gleefully give me details fo the A - I realise now it wasnt for RH, it was to re-live it. Very thick, constant fogbabble. Refusal to get STD test.
Actions not words. His words were good, even Believer thought so

3. Get a NC letter before letting them move back home and take custody of it once it is written. Ditto for passwords, and a signed agreement for either cell phone swapping (which we did) or a new number. Shut down all social networking sites. become joined at the hip for at least the first few weeks even if you don't like each other very much. "personal space time" for the WS to be done at home, in a room without contact capability like cell, internet etc. STD test or no nookie.

Thats just my starting point really.

Exactly the same with Flick.
They were the first 2 messages he gave me in the 'real' one.

Another mistake was allowing him to breakup with OW in person. He said he met her at the mall...but still....totally unnecessary.

Well he always left his truck locked up tight except one day he didn't...so I searched and found paperwork from a wireless company with two cell phone numbers. I got on the internet and set up an on-line account and read all the phone bills. Got the original date it was set up and everything. My big mistake was calling the other phone number cuz I truly believed at that point it was yet another OW. It wasn't, there was a baby's coo as the voicemail message. (OC) I blew up at both of them so they just went further underground.

I made tons of mistakes by giving my data away via my temper!

First FR was before I found MB. I did layout requirements for coming home and he agreed to them. Problem was within 3 weeks he was back in the A.

FTR, my H did the very same thing, believer. Stood up in front of the church and apologized.

Never give your power away in anger.
Never talk to a WS to "set him/her straight" while in Plan B.

Which false recoverey?

The one you believed was real.

Oh I so agree, when I was irate at FWH I told him way too much. It's really important to not give away how you obtained info .... you will regret it since you have just lost your source. :twobyfour:
P.S. Thanks FF for the explaination.

I should have been less patient.


That she was only "on board" with parts of recovery. I ignored this, thinking that she would come around to the rest of things. The reality is she was "on board" with none of it.


Ignore meaningless "progress." The big things matter, NC, O&H, time together, committing to recovery, and action. If those aren't happening, then the "good talk" last night, and the WS said "ILY", etc. are just a smoke screen.

SMB's requirements AFTER a FR



link

I put too much faith in my then WW too early. I began to trust her when she did not yet deserve it.

When I became frustrated that she wasn't on board for any ACTIONs that would contribute to recovery, I would commit LB's and she would call OM for whatever reason, solace or vengence?

D-day for me was months before I found MB, and my biggest regret to this day is that I didn't EXPOSE. By the time I found out that exposure was a great tactic, I guessed it was SO late that it would be more of a revenge tactic than one to stop the A. Even after 2-3 false "recoveries", I did not expose and still have a great deal of regret.

I caved in to her threats of leaving if I did expose, and acted more out of fear than as a responsible, independent thinking adult.

Lack of exposure made FR much easier for her, as the only scrutiny she faced was from me. That's one of the many things I did wrong!

Think about your boundary before you allow WS back home
link to a definition of boundary

After months of Plan A, I believe many BS are so eager to see progress, they reduce their expectations of the WS. Big Mistake.

My Big Mistake.

What about listening to your cohorts on Marriage Builders who told you all that?!???!??

I've been thinking about this.
What I think happens is that the BS UNDERESTIMATES how difficult recovery is.

Recovery is difficult even when the WS is cooperative and ready !!!

BOUNDARIES, BOUNDARIES, BOUNDARIES.

Did I say that emphatically enough?

I wish I had had a better understanding of what boundaries WERE.

And I wish I had made a LIST of them.

Man, this is gonna be a long list.

~kept saying that he wanted to recover "his way", which only meant spending time together, mostly partying and having fun.

~like FF's H, spent most of his time in our room, being "depressed". I think our bed is permanenty indented where he planted his b*tt for 10 months, glued to his laptop.

~refused to take me on business trips to the OW's hometown (or any business trip, for that matter). HUGE RED FLAG, duh!!!

~freaked out whenever I checked his laptop.

~refused to use any of the MB concepts...POJA, PORH, giving up IBs, etc.

~hated, I mean REALLY HATED any questions about the A. [not that any FWS LIKES these questions, but it's sure different now.]

~moped around for months, blaming me because he had to give up some IBs...when it was really the A and stress he was putting himself under that was making him so miserable.

~was MAD when I threw the clothes away that I knew he wore to see OW. I could hardly touch them and he was MAD!

~flipped out when I wanted to get rid of triggers [Plan B is great for this, I CLEANED HOUSE in regards to the A. No mercy whatsoever.]

~continually blamed me for his A because I wouldn't support his IBs!!

~MAJOR mid-life crisis things...bought a Harley, more tattoos, re-pierced his ears. [He has toned this down majorly now.] He was the MLC Poster Boy and I'm not kidding.

Don't accept crumbs. I have raised the bar high and I continue to do so.

I have never backed down on any of my boundaries though it's been d*mn hard sometimes. He has pushed me almost to my breaking point but I held my ground because I KNOW this is our only hope.

We have had some knock-down, drag-out fights, with one of us leaving in the middle of the night; smashing the house up; a second, pseudo "Plan B" because boundaries were not respected. But I have held firm to my boundaries, both to protect myself and our M.

Don't be afraid of their anger. It is VERY TRUE that your M can survive their ANGER.

<Cont'd.>


Don't allow the WS to come home too early. I probably did this after Plan B and while it did not lead to a second FR (thank the good Lord), it made recovery harder.

I think this is a GOLDEN observation. Pep is absolutely right here.

Recovery is a b*tch, and there's no way to pretty that up. It is really, excruciatingly, painfully hard. It will bring you to your knees many times. Be prepared.

Amen to that!~

Or allow them to USE your anger against you by blameshifting. Waywards are expert at blameshifting and shifting topics during discussions. I call my H on that every single time now.

Another mistake:

I allowed FEAR to be my guide.

I also let my own guilt over what I had done previously (my A) that I gave a huge amount of latitude and credit where none were earned.

The 8 Cow Wife


When I sailed to Kiniwata, an island in the Pacific, I took along a notebook. After I got back it was filled with descriptions of flora and fauna, native customs and costume. But the only note that still interests me is the one that says: "Johnny Lingo gave eight cows to Sarita’s father." And I don’t need to have it in writing. I’m reminded of it every time I see a woman belittling her husband or a wife withering under her husband’s scorn. I want to say to them, "You should know why Johnny Lingo paid eight cows for his wife."

Johnny Lingo wasn’t exactly his name. But that’s what Shenkin, the manager of the guest house on Kiniwata, called him. Shenkin was from Chicago and had a habit of Americanizing the names of the islanders. But Johnny was mentioned by many people in many connections. If I wanted to spend a few days on the neighboring island of Nurabandi, Johnny Lingo would put me up. If I wanted to fish he could show me where the biting was best. If it was pearls I sought, he would bring the best buys. The people of Kiniwata all spoke highly of Johnny Lingo. Yet when they spoke they smiled, and the smiles were slightly mocking.

"Get Johnny Lingo to help you find what you want and let him do the bargaining," advised Shenkin. "Johnny knows how to make a deal."
"Johnny Lingo! A boy seated nearby hooted the name and rocked with laughter.
"What goes on?" I demanded. "everybody tells me to get in touch with Johnny Lingo and then breaks up. Let me in on the joke."
"Oh, the people like to laugh," Shenkin said, shruggingly. "Johnny's the brightest, the strongest young man in the islands, And for his age, the richest."
"But if he’s all you say, what is there to laugh about?"
"Only one thing. Five months ago, at fall festival, Johnny came to Kiniwata and found himself a wife. He paid her father eight cows!

I knew enough about island customs to be impressed. Two or three cows would buy a fair-to-middling wife, four or five a highly satisfactory one. "Good Lord!" I said, "Eight cows! She must have beauty that takes your breath away." "She’s not ugly," he conceded, and smiled a little. "But the kindest could only call Sarita plain. Sam Karoo, her father, was afraid she’d be left on his hands."
"But then he got eight cows for her? Isn’t that extraordinary?"
"Never been paid before."
"Yet you call Johnny’s wife plain?"
"I said it would be kindness to call her plain. She was skinny. She walked with her shoulders hunched and her head ducked. She was scared of her own shadow."
"Well," I said, "I guess there’s just no accounting for love."
"True enough," agreed the man. "And that’s why the villagers grin when they talk about Johnny. They get special satisfaction from the fact that the sharpest trader in the islands was bested by dull old Sam Karoo."
"But how?"
"No one knows and everyone wonders. All the cousins were urging Sam to ask for three cows and hold out for two until he was sure Johnny’d pay only one. Then Johnny came to Sam Karoo and said, ‘Father of Sarita, I offer eight cows for your daughter.’"
"Eight cows," I murmured. "I’d like to meet this Johnny Lingo."
"And I wanted fish. I wanted pearls. So the next afternoon I beached my boat at Nurabandi. And I noticed as I asked directions to Johnny’s house that his name brought no sly smile to the lips of his fellow Nurabandians. And when I met the slim, serious young man, when he welcomed me with grace to his home, I was glad that from his own people he had respect unmingled with mockery. We sat in his house and talked. Then he asked, "You come here from Kiniwata?"
"Yes."
"They speak of me on that island?"
"They say there’s nothing I might want they you can’t help me get."
He smiled gently. "My wife is from Kiniwata."
"Yes, I know."
"They speak of her?"
"A little."
"What do they say?"
"Why, just..." The question caught me off balance. "They told me you were married at festival time."
"Nothing more?" The curve of his eyebrows told me he knew there had to be more.
They also say the marriage settlement was eight cows." I paused.
"They wonder why."
"They ask that?" His eyes lightened with pleasure. "Everyone in Kiniwata knows about the eight cows?"
I nodded.
"And in Nurabandi everyone knows it too." His chest expanded with satisfaction. "Always and forever, when they speak of marriage settlements, it will be remembered that Johnny Lingo paid eight cows for Sarita."
So that’s the answer, I thought: vanity.

And then I saw her. I watched her enter the room to place flowers on the table. She stood still a moment to smile at the young man beside me. Then she went swiftly out again. She was the most beautiful woman I have ever seen. The lift of her shoulders, the tilt of her chin the sparkle of her eyes all spelled a pride to which no one could deny her the right. I turned back to Johnny Lingo and found him looking at me. "You admire her?" he murmured. "She...she’s glorious. But she’s not Sarita from Kiniwata," I said.

"There’s only one Sarita. Perhaps she does not look the way they say she looked in Kiniwata." "She doesn’t. I heard she was homely. They all make fun of you because you let yourself be cheated by Sam Karoo."
"You think eight cows were too many?" A smile slid over his lips. "No. But how can she be so different?"
"Do you ever think," he asked, "what it must mean to a woman to know that her husband has settled on the lowest price for which she can be bought? And then later, when the women talk, they boast of what their husbands paid for them. One says four cows, another maybe six. How does she feel, the woman who was sold for one or two?" This could not happen to my Sarita."
"Then you did this just to make your wife happy?"
"I wanted Sarita to be happy, yes. But I wanted more than that. You say she is different This is true. Many things can change a woman. Things that happen inside, things that happen outside. But the thing that matters most is what she thinks about herself. In Kiniwata, Sarita believed she was worth nothing. Now she knows she is worth more than any other woman in the islands." "Then you wanted -"
"I wanted to marry Sarita. I loved her and no other woman."
"But —" I was close to understanding.
"But," he finished softly, "I wanted an eight-cow wife."

Or allow them to USE your anger against you by blameshifting. Waywards are expert at blameshifting and shifting topics during discussions. I call my H on that every single time now.

Another mistake:

I allowed FEAR to be my guide.

I also let my own guilt over what I had done previously (my A) that I gave a huge amount of latitude and credit where none were earned. [/quote]

Can you elaborate on that all??

YES!!!!!!!!!!!

Do NOT allow FEAR to guide you. Never, ever, EVER.

And don't put your guard down in regards to your fears...it's hard to act in spite of your fears, but it's imperative.

We're on the same page, sista-girlfriend-FF.

sniff, what an awesome story!

Pep, thank you. It is wonderful to pay forward the lessons learned and the help received from the wonderful people here!

Yup, we need to remember we are '8 cow wives'

I thought of another thing I SHOULD NOT have done during the FR.

I should not have let him go overseas without me.
That I paid for :RollieEyes:

Ok 1st I was scared but now I am scared sh*tless!!!!!

Ah well have enjoyed hearing from everyone. It actually is helping me. I was letting my fear and my fear of his anger control what I was actually going to accept. I started to feel fog in my head but my stomach was feeling sick but then I called my Pastor this morning.

My Pastor said if you don't have conditions you are lowering your value and self worth and Mr. T2L will not love someone who does not love them self. He said put out the conditions and let the cards fall where they may.

So I have been reading this thread started by my lil IMey pooh Pepster. I know I needed to hear it all. So hard when you can reach out and touch it and you know that it may all start over again.

H did say he needed space too in his I am planning to come home speech, so hearing TST's comment on that helped too. Well it all sucks LOL but gotta do what I gotta do, plus kids are watching me and what I accept they will to and thats even worse as far as I'm concerned. Anyways hopefully info will pour in, I am still reading. Conditions to be delivered soon, not sure exactly.

T2L,

Your Pastor is very wise. Honey, do you have the book Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend? A very good read. What your Pastor is speaking of is boundaries which protect you from yourself moreso than from your WH.

Beautiful story, Lil.............

Instead of me yammering at you, I thought the message would be more powerful if spoken by many who have gone down the wrong road and learned from it. Which is THE POINT of all this life God gives us. Our missteps can benefit people who are listening.

Also, doing this on the board, others (lurkers), get to read and learn too.

T2L, I haven't followed your story but from you sig line it looks like you just delivered a 2nd PBL...

Has something else happened or are you still in a dark PB?

Another point -

If we divorce, that's it.

I will not remain your best friend, fix your car, do your errands, or serve Thanksgiving dinner to you and the OP singing happy songs around the holiday table even for the sake of the children. Once you're gone, you are out of my life entirely except on a "need to know" basis about the kids' schedule, and preferably that can be done by e-mail.

If you walk out, then you you need to get a place for kids to visit you, since you will not be hanging around this house evenings and weekends, pretending to yourself that hanging around on a Saturday afternoon and mowing the lawn makes up for the fact you looked for a replacement for your spouse and found one.

You are either with her or you are not. There is no in-between: no e-mails, calls, lunches, dinners, coffee or kiss and grope sessions in parks or hotels or anyplace else with the OP.

A BS incredibly, mind-boggling callous that they actually believe a BS will step aside gracefully, will screw him occasionally for old times sakes (or to the female OW, she will expect to keep getting money and having car or household repairs done by BS.

The reason to say this stuff early is that most have the idea of going underground and keeping both.

Exactly, Believer. I told my FWH exactly that...He would have loved to have kept me as a friend if we would have D'd and he was with OW...he whined, "We can still be friends, can't we?"
Absolutely NOT. I wasn't about to make that an option or easy for him at all.

I wish I had known that waywards ask to come home before they are ready to come home.

I wish I had required more and not felt so afraid that doing so would "chase him away". The wayward wasn't worth keeping and needed chased away.

I wish I had looked for the heart change before I opened my heart back up. Sooooooo much damage was done during the FR....so so much....




I didn't ignore or miss the clues once he was home. I just didn't know what to do about it because I had already allowed him back home.

IB was much WORSE.

Hurtful words and actions from a man who had never said or done a hurtful thing to me pre-A.

Basically, he kept his entire wayward personality. I only saw a glimpse or two of my husband...the night I let him come home, and a few other times after that. Then...the alien completely consumed him.





The rules need to change after a FR.

I was "in it" the first two times around (2 FRs). I was willing to keep Plan Aing and help him through withdrawal . But those days were long gone when he approached me again about reconciliation.

It's time to up the bar and NOT LOWER IT when real hubby makes a brief appearance.

WAIT.

There's too much pain in a FR to risk it.

Just to let you all know ...

I am finding this thread incredibly helpful. Lots of what is being said is helping me to confirm that I'm NOT in FR.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.

T2L,
I'm not familiar with your situation, but I get the drift of what is going on. I'm so sorry.

I was scared sh*tless too, mine being right after D-Day. Horrible feeling for anyone.

Having a PLAN made a huge difference for me. The posts here add to your PLAN. It's so much easier to see things clearly when you have a PLAN.

I admire the fact that you believe your children are 'watching' and will settle in life for what they see from you. I feel this way too.

I wish you the best on this loose gravel road to R.

Take care.

This is a really good point...make it CLEAR that if you D you will have NOTHING to do with WS.

I vividly remember sitting in a restaurant having a few beers with (then) WH during our FR, and him kind of joking that if we didn't make it, we'd probably still hang out and have sex...because we always have fun together and SF has always been great...I was a little loopy so I remember laughing about it at the time, and not DISagreeing with him.

Then later on I thought "WTF is wrong with me?!?!? No way in HAYUL would I have anything to do with him if we don't make it!!!".

I didn't know he was still having an A, and if I'd known that, I would have slapped him for being so egotistical.

Vittoria,

Never let your guard down.

When I began to feel comfortable that I was NOT in FR was when I discovered D-Days #2, 3, & 4. You'd think I'd have learned, eh?

My major mistakes (too many minor ones to count):

1) Trying to be OW's friend, hoping she would NOT betray me with WH. (She thought it was OK to reconnect secretly b/c they quit having phone sex.)

2) Forgiving both WH and OW too soon, thinking it was the good Christian thing to do (and having no clue about just compensation).

3) Listening to the clueless MC who said "let God take care of convicting OW and confessing to her BH when she's ready."

4) Not seeking info on the internet.....read books instead but got no feedback except from our first MC who we fired after finding MB books and later this web site and subsequently these forums and eventually a tough MC who agrees with MB.

5) Not snooping.....I trusted and did not "trust, but verify"....and all my D-Days were accidental coincidences (or brought on by little angels).

ETA #6 (should have been #1) Thinking that WH could NOT have been cheating because he acted like the man of my dreams after D-Day #1.

We've come a long way but I still am aware that we could have another false recovery. I am, however, enjoying the present fruits of our labors, realizing that my perspective is very different from most on these forums. (I was looking for a way out of our M for decades, but when I finally got it, I changed my mind.)

If it happens, the next FR will become an immediate Plan D. If it happens tomorrow and I never marry again, I will treasure the memories of the past couple years. Now, I snoop, even though it's been nearly 3 years......Dr. Harley speaks about FR after 5-6 years of seemingly marital bliss. That convinced me that I'll never be able to let my guard down....ever.

But that's just me.

Fortunately, every poster here has the advantage of these forums so hopefully none will have to take my idiot route.

Ace

t/j
Ace,
Great advice. Thanks for the reminder. I still snoop, verify, I don't plan on forgiving him or the FOW. And I certainly don't plan on having coffee with her.
My post was based on the behaviours he hasn't shown according to this thread.
Is this clear as mud ???
Thank you so much for your concern.
end t/j

Well, as usual, I'm late to the party. Here's my take.


My husband DID say the words, "I'll do whatever it takes" while he was laying in the hospital bed. I BELIEVED him. I wish I hadn't. I wish I hadn't been so eager for recovery that I let him him come home with NO conditions. I wish I hadn't mistaken WH for DH.


I didn't understand there were clues to miss at the time. He was distant, did NOT want to talk about anything that had happened, wanted to go see her "for closure" and to tell her it was over. He was more concerned about himself and having a pity party than any pain that he had caused me. I was not allowed to get next to him. These were HUGE clues that I was ignorant about. I just thought he wasn't himself because he was healing from the accident.


Don't jump into recovery until you know in your knower that your spouse (the one who cares/cared for you) is back. Make it PLAIN that you don't need to be married to him/her, that life WILL go on without him/her.

Understand that you are worth having a spouse who loves and cares for you, day in and day out.

Take it very very slow. Do not trust anything right away and then only trust but verify.

Amen ! This is the beauty of bravely sharing our personal mistakes. We've all played the idiot one time or another.

Hello, hello? Did someone call my name?

tl

Hey now...speak for yourself.

D Day 1 2003:

My H's affair was first discovered by me after about six weeks of its starting in 2003. I found condoms in a drawer. They had been bought abroad; there was no English writing on the box. We live in London. My H travelled to Europe roughly twice a month for one or two nights at a time.

We had a horrible marriage at the time, but after much fighting and mutual blame we admitted that we did not want to divorce. We gave our marriage another try, and the results seemed spectacular for most of the first year of false recovery.

I thought that our near break-up had shaken H to the core, and that, since he wanted to stay with me, he would stop his affair - of course! It never occurred to me that he would not. I could see that he had chosen an affair when our marriage was terrible and our sex life non-existent. I took responsibility for the state of the marriage and was thankful to have been forgiven my errors. I never imagined that a human being with a mind and a conscience could misuse another human being's love without a second's thought, as he went on to do for two years.

During the second year, from my point of view things went downhill rapidly. My H seemed increasingly angry and bored with me, He left for work early and came in late, except for one night per week when he made the effort to come home early and was horrible to me and the children.

My BIG mistake after D Day 1 was not to ask who OW was, inform her H and insist on a job change as a recovery condition.

I worked out that OW lived abroad and therefore must be connected through his job. He laughed in my face when I suggested that he was in love and would leave us for her they had only been together 3 or 4 times. He made it clear that affair was a convenient arrangement for sex and a bit of attention, on both their parts; she was married too and like him, had no intention of leaving. That was all I found out about the affair, and since I reasoned that my problem was with him, not her, I did not feel the need to know more.

I think that a lot of people would have made the same mistake as I did after the first D Day, which was not to seek changes to H's job (or to move house if OP lives locally). As Dr Harley says, we must find out the circumstances of the affair and change our living or working arrangements to make a restarting of the affair very difficult. Many people would also not have exposed to either OPS or the employers. I think many people would have done what I did and trust that, since my H was very keen to stay with me and the children he would not risk our happiness again.

We are wrong, but rather normal. However, I cannot get over how silly I was after that.

D Day 2:

Exactly 2 years after D Day 1 2003 I walked in on H texting on a mobile phone that he had been lent by his company on strict instruction that there was to be no personal use, so he said. Although he had it at home every evening, it had been lent only so that he could be reached when he was abroad. The very second I saw him look round nervously and try to hide the phone I knew that he was back in the affair. For a few days I thought that it must have restarted when we became unhappy again. It was only on a drive to the supermarket about 4 days later that I worked out that he had probably never ended it. I then worked out that he had been really happy during our first year because he had two women adoring him and having sex with him.

What I did correctly after D Day 2 2005 was to not say a word about what I had seen, and to take the phone when he was asleep. I confirmed that the affair was indeed active. Because we were on holiday at the time and I did not want to upset the children, I said nothing for several days. My being unable to confront him allowed me to keep spying and, as luck would have it, I discovered OW's full name when she sent a text message over the internet rather than from her phone. Her phone messages had only her phone number on them, but her internet messages had her name.

Also fortunate for me: Because I could not find a moment to talk to him without the children around once we got home (it was the school holidays and they stayed up later than her did; he would come in, eat, grump at us all and go to bed early, from where he texted OW before turning out the light), I was able to keep spying. I Googled her name and discovered within 5 minutes where she lived, that she was married, had children and was connected to my H through his job. She was a volunteer on a committee that he dealt with. I found the committee minutes online and these had her name and address.

I made a serious mistake when I revealed what I knew to my H, six days after the discovery. H wrong-footed me and said that he did not want to leave; I had been expecting the opposite. I had read the text messages talking of how he loved her, wanted to make love only to her, and was "lacking in commitment here" and wanting to be with her all the time. I did not reveal what I had read, but when he asked me how I had found out I blurted out "I saw you texting!"

He thereafter left the phone at work and I was cut off from information. I only saw it thereafter about every six weeks, when he was forced to bring it home after a trip abroad. He was stupid enough to think that I would never spy on him, so he left his text messages backed up on the phone. It took weeks at a time, but I was able to see that the affair was continuing.

(H was really indignant when I confessed my spying many months later. He said that that I had invaded his privacy.)

I wish that I had not said a word about the phone. I was lucky enough to have gathered a lot of useful information, but I should have kept silent about the phone.

After D Day 2 I had so much more information about the affair than after D Day 1. However, my ignorance about how to use my knowledge allowed him to continue seeing OW yet again, for over a year more.

If I had gone straight to her husband with my proof of the affair it would have ended that day. Her H is a street fighter where his wife is concerned and after he had rearranged my H's face he would have reported him to his employers.

If I myself had reported the affair to my H's employers they would have taken him off that job, if not sacked him outright. He was in charge of the budget for her committee, as well as others; there was a clear conflict of interest. He was also using the office landline and mobile phone to make international calls to her that sometimes lasted two hours. This had been going on for two years; he must owe his company many thousand of pounds.

If I had had MB to guide me, I would have accepted that he might be sacked, and exposed anyway. I earn more than enough to keep the family on my own, and no price would have been too much to save my marriage.

If exposure had thrown them together, I would have let him go and not looked back. I wanted him back only if he wanted to be with me; if he wanted to be with someone else I could not wait to get rid of him. I told him that, and offered to buy him out of the house, and suggested that he lived a mile or two away; close enough to see the kids often but far enough away that I would not bump into him at the corner shop. He would not hear of leaving.

I had nothing to fear about any possible consequences of exposure and yet I would not use it. I really really wanted to hurt OW, but I did not want to hurt her H or family, and I reasoned that exposure would hurt innocent people. Of course, I know now that it is the affair that hurts those people. So far, remember, I was without MB.

Also, I would have died rather than let anyone say that I was a jealous, bitter woman, as I knew many would after exposure, so I hung on to my false dignity and let the affair continue. I was ineffectively trying to out-love OW and make H see how much the affair was hurting me. He did see that, and slowly withdrew from the affair, but not completely for over another year.

D Day 3:

This came about 6 weeks after D Day 2, in May 2005 when she came to London and he said he was working abroad but stayed with her in her hotel for 2 nights. He did this when our marriage was at its most precarious, leaving on a Sunday afternoon when he would normally have been at home with the children whom he hardly ever saw. Since I had not done anything about exposing him to his employers, it was easy for him and OW to speak on the phone at work, as they had always done; no calls had ever been made to or from my house. All he had to do was tell me he had dumped her and I could not prove otherwise, although I was ill with worry. I knew that since he had been capable of continuing the affair for two years from my first discovery, he was capable of doing so again, but I felt unable to make him stop. I thought that the only thing I could do was separate from him, and I was unwilling to do that because of the children.

I discovered his scam by listening to his voicemail when he got home from his trip "abroad". I did not tell him what I had heard. I made up my mind that we would separate after my daughter finished her GCSE exams. By the time she had, it was summer and I extended that time to after the holidays.

D Day 4:

This came after the summer holidays and I was expecting it, since I knew and hadn't spoken about D Day 3. After D Day 4 (when I saw a text message from her celebrating their latest night of fabulous love-making) I told H to move out. I later went back on that decision.
My regrets are the same as for D Day 2.

H still travelled abroad, which I should have stopped. OWH still did not know of the affair, and if he had he would not have let his wife travel freely as she did.

D Day 5:

OW travelled to London yet again, in the autumn of 2005. That time H did not spend the night with her but took time off work to go and see her in her hotel. I knew she was coming because I had found details of her job on the internet. Her company travelled in Europe, and the London trip was advertised. She was a conference organiser and the conference was open to the public; there was a call for papers. I should have gone to it!

Instead I waited for about 3 hours outside the hotel where the conference was being held, convinced my H would meet her. He did, and yet I missed them. I got him to confess to meeting her but he told me it was to say goodbye, because she had never accepted the break up. I nearly hit him for going back on his word to me that he would never see or speak to her again, but I believed his excuse, I really did. He confessed to me months later than it had been another sex session - while I had been standing outside the hotel on a freezing November day waiting to confront them.
My regrets are the same as for D Day 2. Goodness, this is becoming repetitive.

D Day 5:

In the January 2006, I discovered a dialled call from his phone to her number. In my anger I told him what I had discovered. He told me that she was being persistent but he was turning her down. She rang when he was away to say "how are you?" and he kept the conversation light and friendly, he said. I insisted on NC (still without MB) and he promised to achieve that.
Take a wild guess.

D Day 6:

(I can't believe I am writing this. If you knew what a feisty, tongue-lashing witch I usually am you would never believe how I crumbled under this continuing affair and put up with it, trying to show love and patience. This was so unlike me!)

In March 2006 I found another dialled call and ask why he was still speaking to her. It was the same story; she would call to see how he was, and, he admitted, probably to try and re-start the affair, but not explicitly so. He could not be hard on her and tell her to leave him alone. He had told her how it was hurting me and that he himself wanted the calls to stop, but she would insist that she was only being friendly and every few weeks would call again. He was always light and would end the calls quickly, he said.

I'm going to skip the regrets part from now on.

D Day 7:

In May 2006 just over a year from D Day 2 OW started sending sexy text messages to his phone again. These had ended many months earlier. They seemed curiously designed for me to see. After one in July 2006 I told him to move out. He swore up and down that he had never seen the texts himself, because I had discovered and deleted them (true). He had not seen her since the last time I knew about (November 2005, to say goodbye, in London). There was no affair and had not been since the previous September.

I withdrew my demand for him to leave and we went on holiday. I told him to take his phone this time and that I would check it. The day he was due back in the office after the holiday there was another text about her "missing his kisses" and I told him to get out. That's when he confessed that the affair had never stopped (yet again; first 6 weeks, then two years, then 5 months, then 9 months, with major D Days at these points and minor ones in between). They had only met about 3 times during the final 9 months (utter rubbish, I found out later via her husband) but yes, it had continued.

He got on his knees and begged me to stay, but it was only his going in to work, off his own bat, next day and refusing to travel ever again, that made me stay with him. He was the head of his team and would be leaving them in the lurch, but junior members could do the travelling and he would stay in post (not travelling) until they replaced him. They did after about 9 months, and he took a small pay cut and a much less interesting job. However, he seems to feel himself lucky to have a job at all, and even more so to have me, and has never complained or try to make me feel bad for "making" him make that choice.
His leaving the phone at the office, once I had told him that I had seen him using it, and the messages still appearing on it when I did see it. I let him talk me into believing that the contact was one-way, was from her to him, was entirely unwanted and was not physical.
I should have discovered the identity of OW; I should have exposed to OWH and my H's employers; I should not have revealed my clue to affair (the phone).

I can forgive myself the first false recovery, because I don't think that It Is normal to assume that absolutely every WS will do what my H did and continue the affair for 2 years. My H did not even tell his OW of my discovery at first. He pretended that it had not happened, I think so that she would not ask questions about why he hadn't left.

However, I am angry at myself for letting the other D Days happen. I knew from the second one on what a liar and despicable cheat my H was, and yet I struggled on in the marriage trying to believe that he would change because of "our love", my distress, and because he did not want to lose the family.

I was staggered when I later discovered the circumstances of H's lies, but I have read even more staggering things here - such as Christian waywards lying with their hand on the Bible.

I would say to any BS who has already undergone one FR that they should not trust their spouses ever again. We should trust only what we can see. Words, tears and promises from our repeat offender spouses mean nothing at all. All waywards change their morals to fit their affair behaviour, but the BS's hurt means nothing to at all to the repeat offender, in my experience.

Repeat WSs probably love their children, yet their children's futures mean nothing to them. I think that Plan A is a good thing to do with a first offender, but it will not change the behaviour of the repeat offender wayward.

Some BSs seem able to cope with continued contact, but some, like me, suffer mental health problems as a result of it. I wish I could make WSs insist on verifiable action before they allow the marriage to continue. I don't understand why a repeatedly betrayed BS who Is familiar with MB does not do this.

My marriage is very badly damaged as a result of repeated FR, not the affair per se.

Probably the most important thing I learned from false recovery was that it isn't simply actions that define waywardness. Not actively engaged in an active affair is not the same thing as being a FORMER wayward spouse. Just like an alcoholic who has not had a drink in 6 months does not indicate that they are "recovered."

Real recovery requires true repentance and true repentance is not merely a change in actions but a change in thinking that results in a change in action.

It is all too possible to have NC, change your actions and interactions and still be wayward in thinking. This can lead to a restarting of the affair or another new one with no real warning.

And it requires more than just a lifting of the fog of the affair to truly change from wayward to FORMER wayward status. As long as the phrase "I'm sorry, but..." still permeates conversations, the F has not yet been earned. In fact, it isn't even really pending. It indicates that the WS is still but a renter and has not yet become a buyer. It means a sense of GIVE and TAKE rather than GIVE and RECEIVE.

Mark

attitude adjustment required

Sometimes I hate myself for my own behavior during FR. I was so, so DUMB! That's a hard pill to swallow.

Like many of the other responses here, I would not have let him come home so early. I would not have put up with his relentless pouting for six months. I would not have allowed HIM to call all of the shots (a result of ME being run by my own FEARS).

I would have tracked his a$$ much more than I did instead of believing and TRUSTING him at his word (what a DUMMY I was!)

Oh, and I would have kept in contact with OW'H to compare notes. I big red flag for me should have been when he deleted OWH number on my phone and made ME feel guilty for ever having TALKED to him.

Basicaly, in all of his diabolical behavior during FR, I should have told him to go jump in a lake (I'm being nice here) and I would have put a DARK PLAN B in place.

Also, I would have watched the checkbook. A big one. I actually trusted him with it while he spent, spent, spent, siphoning money off of his paycheck every two weeks to finance his A.

[TJ]

Hi RLT! Good to see you pop in.

DGS and I went to The Fort for V-Day. Nice time.

I hope you are doing okay.

[/TJ]

(TJ)

Hi, Chrisner!

Perhaps my son was your server at The Fort. He would have been the very handsome young man - the hansomest one there, of course!

I know they were very busy.

I hope you're doing OK. I don't come over here too much, but every so often I pop in.

T/J....
Mark,
Where can I find into about Buyers/Renters etc?
Thanks!!
JoJo

That would be all of them, actually.

Very well said!

Consider the character of a repentant heart. Then watch for the actions that demonstrate those character traits of a truly repentant person. Also, watch for actions that demonstrate an unrepentant heart.

A WS may be willing to do SOME actions that do look repentant. But there are some they will refuse (like not using an IM), that indicate unrepentance.

This certainly seems to be the theme of this thread.

We often see this moment as our big shot at recovery. Fear takes over and we make poor choices and lay our heart out there yet again to the wayward.

Ding ding ding!

My H's first A ended when I exposed to OWH. H was so resentful of me ending his fun before it "ran its course" that for two years he was wayward in his thinking and immature toward me. Guess what happened? Yep, old gf # 2 calls and off we go on yet another affair. This time produced an OC and a LTA.

IMCO, the best approach is to assume WS never change their spots. No matter what they may say. No matter how many tears they cry.

I learned this via re-re-re-re-recovery:

Assume, whether they are assiduoulsy performing some or all recovery related things or not, assume deep down they will always be who they really are, and who they always were.

Assume they are playing you, or will be again sooner or later

Then you will not be overly disappointed.

Then you will be somewhat prepared.

Then your heart will be protected, if only a little.

The book by Dr Harley

Article mentioning Dr H and his book.

Article from [i]Experience Life [/i]magazine

And maybe 100 threads on this site that I'm too lazy to link right now. (I'm feeling like a renter at the moment)

Mark

I listened, and thus it was not something that I would do differently. At the time, I just did not agree.

FWIW, I do not feel like if I had done something different, I would have had a better or more streamlined "recovery." I would have been spared some of the anguish that often accompanies hope, but it would have had no real effect on the outcome.

Said another way, some of us, if we choose to attempt recovery, are going to endure false recoveries, no matter what we do.

Slight TJ - rprynne - Is your wife in the reserves?

Nope.

OK. I saw a FWW posting with the same name on another site.

I hope that through my mistakes and pain, others could avoid some. However, it may be like with your kids, one has to experience things in order to see the light...


1. WHAT did you do that you wish you'd done differently?
Kicked him out the first day, not allow fence sitting, not beg and cry, hmmm, not listen to what I wanted to hear but to really listen to what was being said...I saw some terrible divorces and didn't want that for my sons, what I did to avoid divorce was worse on me...I should have trusted that they would be okay as I would be there to help them vs. caught up in my pain.

I wish I had not stayed married at all costs because the costs financially, emotionally and the additional pain I caused to my kids for not protecting them wasn't worth it. I think that often the BS can be selfish too and hide under the umbrella that they don't want to D due to the kids where it is really the fear and insecurity keeping them there, not the kids (at least not entirely).

2. WHAT clues did you miss (or ignore) that your WS was not ready for recovery?
Mostly it was his attitude didn't change, he acted like he was doing me a favor. Wasn't open and honest, didn't read anything and went grudgingly to counseling. Fought/argued about A details, didn't want to discuss as he didn't "remember". I sensed the insincerity deep down, didn't want to face it.

3. WHAT lessons did you learn that you'd like to pay forward to others, so that they might avoid a FR?

Like others said, trust your gut, I sensed something wasn't right after d-day #2 and snooped and snooped, kept looking...it took me three years to find it. The pain and shame of my own stupidity is hard to bear, my biggest problem is forgiving myself.

In my sitch I was/am the breadwinner and supported WH's dream of owning his own business. The business tanked due to the economy, we are in major debt. Before we closed the biz, I workd FT+, did the books for WH, cleaned the store, grocery shopped, paid the bills, cleaned the house/laundry. WH was plotting how to get in touch with OW. I can't come up with the words of how I felt last year after finding out...shame, pain anger, beating myself up, wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Have boundaries, look at the attitude, trust yourself, and verify with every manner you have available. Avoid inflicting pain on yourself by being grateful he/she is there and not asking for the respect and a good relationship that you deserve.

Mark, you have expressed very well something that I have established in my own mind.

I have realised for some time that there is a difference between a wayward who is no longer in the affair and a former wayward. The problem is that I don't know how a BS can ever really know the difference, or at least not after a FR.

My H has said many times that the affair is over, and has promised me that what happened will never happen again. And while he is not exactly contrite and horrified about what he has done, or disgusted at what he became, he is passionate and loving and caring to me, perhaps more than ever before. He does seem to be very sorry that he hurt me.

The problem for me is that I know how easily and convincingly he can lie, and so I have learned not to try and judge what his attitude or demeanour mean, or to rely on my instincts. My instincts have been as wrong as they could have been with regard to H's honesty in the past.

During FR, I watched him lie when I knew about some contact or other and when I confronted him, if I hadn't known already about the contact I would never have known he was lying. He never looked guilty while he lied, he never avoided my eyes, he never blushed or stumbled over his words or did anything else suspicious. He looked me in the eye and told me that he hadn't seen OW and but for the evidence contained on his phone I could not tell that he was lying.

During FR our sex lives improved; I suspect that he was highly turned on by my willingness to compete with OW and I was probably trying to bond with him to break the bond that he had with her. And so now I cannot look at how passionate our sex life is; it was more passionate than ever before during FR.

His desire to keep the marriage going - as well as the affair - at times when it seemed most likely to end, made him attentive, kinder, more passionate and, it seemed, just more loving to me than ever before, in and out of bed. That was partly why it came as such a shock to find out about the final 9 months of FR. My mental anxiety and fragility during those 9 months came from the fact that he still travelled in his job and he still went to work everyday and was at liberty to talk privately to her on the business phone from his (private, solo) office. It came from the fact that about 4 times I found her number in his dialled calls on the mobile. It did not come from his treatment of me.

The dialled calls are obvious clues to me now, but at that time I thought I could not divorce him over the record of dialled calls. I could not break up my children's home over that.

And so, because I have learned not to try and judge H's attitude or demeanour, I go forward on the basis of the provable changes in his actions. He has given up the travelling job, and since I contacted OWH, she has given up her job abroad and moved back into the marital home. She is not free to come to London any more. However, I feel that I can never be sure of complete NC; they can always use public phones and internet cafes at any time to contact each other.

And so, I have ended up with what you describe; at best, a husband who is no longer in the affair but not one that I can call a FWH. I am not unhappy with that limbo, but I would prefer to have the security and commitment that other BSs here feel. I just don't know how to get it, or what gives them their certainty.

I was somewhat reassured when the affair descended into acrimony in 2007, after OW heard from her H what my H had been saying about wanting rid of her for months. Her love turned to hate within days, and she told him "you're not dumping me; I'm dumping you!" However, I am aware how easily their mutual feelings of anger could soften and that they could reach out to each other again. If that happens, I don't know how I would be able to tell. I could not tell at all that the affair was continuing during the first year of FR.

I don't see myself as necessarily in real recovery now. I might be, and if I am, time will tell. If I'm not, again time will tell. I firmly believe that if he and OW are is some kind of contact will find out one day, and that if and when I do, I am incapable of being hurt as I once was.

That is because I don't believe in him any more. I don't really know how any BS who has suffered repeated betrayal can fully believe in their spouse ever again. I envy those that do, but I don't know how to achieve this myself.

beginagain, I'm very sorry to hear your story. Are you still with your H?

Wow -- this is a great thread. Lots of beneficial information. And I can relate to most of what everyone is contributing as I've "been there, done that" multiple times this past year.

Red Flags:
1. Trust your kids' instincts.
I wanted to believe that each of WH's returns were real, as did my DDs. But DS17 knew all along that WH wasn't sincere. He could tell that Dad wasn't the same old Dad.

2. Beware if WH avoids family events.
My WH either did not attend (I'm "not ready") or drove his own car so he could leave early.

3. Beware of WH making promises -- even the ones he makes in writing.
Just because promises are in writing or spoken in front of a priest/parent/counselor/kids doesn't make it less likely he'll break them. I tried that.

4. WH underestimating how hard recovery would be. He repeated "It's not that hard. I never really tried before" to convince me to let him come home the last time. I've learned: IT IS THAT HARD AND TRYING IS NOT COMMITING.

5. Each False Recovery is worse than the previous one.
I should have been more forceful during FR #1 to prevent the rest. And the last FR was pretty much a joke. I did figure that he just wanted to be home for the holidays to "save face" with the kids AND to get his name included on our family Christmas card.

6. Beware if it's all about him and his pain and his depression and withdrawl. Too much space is not a good thing. And he should have been breaking his back to make it up to me. Instead I got ignored.

7. Don't negotiate.
Big lesson -- Do not negotiate with terrorists. Do not negotiate with waywards.

If he requires negotiating, he's not ready. You shouldn't have to convince him to come back. He should want it badly.

8. Don't be afraid to bring in others to make sure WH is ready to come back. Use SH or family members or friends. Not that it will happen again (since he's filed for D), but should he ever want to return, I'd convene a giant meeting and let them drill him on motives and let THEM vote as to whether he can rejoin the tribe -- er -- family or be voted off the island.

Just caught up on this thread.

I'm not feeling so 'spiffy' anymore about R. But that's okay. Time will tell if I will be added to the 'idiot' list.

This is still the most helpful thread. Everyone's insights are invaluable to those of us reading that are in early in R.

P.S. Thank you Ace

Acey,
I appreciate your concern so much.
It's all cool. Like you said 'keep your guard up'. I think I just let mine down a bit.
And it's good to have reminders, which is what this thread is doing.
Sorry for the t/j.

I'm quoting this again because this is VERY true. I've learned this the hard way and continue to learn it.

THIS IS ALSO VERY IMPORTANT.

After the FR I have never negotiated recovery and I don't plan on starting.

I'VE done all of the reading, learning, understanding and with the help of MB and everyone here, I know pretty d*mn well what it takes to recover.

If a FWS does the same kind of learning that most BS's do, there wouldn't be a NEED for negotiating.

a big A M E N

This was written by poster Star*fish - I keep it on my notable posts thread. I think this thread can use it's own copy. Here it is:

Good lord that's a good post. I'm in this period of establishing my boundaries and questioning how hard I enforce them, and exactly how TO enforce them.

In this most recent recovery attempt, my wife finally started saying all the right things. Stopped blaming the marriage for the affair. Took 100% blame for her actions. Told me it was her issues with happiness and coping, not issues with me. Now this got her back in the door, even though I had reached the end of my rope. Since then there has been some sliding back into the fog. When I reinforce boundaries, she treats them as LBs. I think I can come up with better ways to reinforce the boundaries, because it usually consists of me saying, "I'm still ready to end this." It's a threat, which hurts her because at this point (one week in) she feels that just being here and remaining somewhat cheerful are the extent of the efforts she can muster. With some probing she will say that all the things she said last week were still true. She's just not living it very well.

In 'Surviving the Affair' and on many of these forums, it is stated that we should not expect much from the WS in these early weeks of withdrawal. Dr. Harley says we should not expect an apology. That seems a little at odds with some of the hard and fast requirements for penitence I read in this thread. In the process of recovery, especially those who are still going strong, did you find that the WS seemed to withdraw from those initial feelings of remorse? I would assume this is pretty normal. I'm just a little unclear as to the enforcement of my boundaries. For instance I said she would have to commit to working with MB concepts. She agreed, but of course has not lifted a finger. Do I wait until we're through withdrawal to bring it up again? Do I let her make that decision on her own - then enforce my boundary if she doesn’t? Do I remind her every day of her commitment to do this? Hope this is an appropriate post here. I feel like these questions are repeated a million times here!

Well of course WS's treat boundaries as LBers, especially when they are IB experts and are used to running roughshod all over you.

Boundaries feel controlling to them and they often become angry and agitated. Totally normal. They act like teenagers who want to do what they want without anyone stopping them. They can act very selfishly.

They are not used to the "new BS"...the one who won't be a doormat any longer and this frustrates them.

...

You are right this, is a threat and not a boundary.

A boundary would be:

"I am not willing to stay in a M in which ___________ occurs, or continues to occur."

In SAA, Dr. H is talking about affairs in general. He not addressing FRs.

This thread is focused solely on recovering....after you thought you were recovering.

Some here have gone as far as to renew their vows, only to find out later it was all a FR.

The rules must change, IMO as a BS, because this damage has been so great.

In my own situation, I did an excellent Plan A and was more than willing to deal with his withdrawal...the first time, and even the second time. But the third time? NO, I was done. It was MY way or the D-way.

I had nothing left. I believe another FR could have very well killed me, or at least put me in the hospital. At that point, I could not have coped with any more lies, any more half-measures, any more withdrawal, any more anything, other than "whatever you need honey".

So...

the rules had to change.





During the FR, yes.

During the real recovery, no. His remorse only grew.

I would be very suspicious of a "F"WS whose remorse waned even a little.

I can honestly say, looking back, I have NO idea how I even kept putting one foot in front of the other, but the FR's really knocked me down.

I was my own worst enemy. I took him back too soon, TWICE. After finding MB, I followed the plans, but found myself weakening my boundaries or moving them altogether, just for the CHANCE at recovery with my WH. It was a PAINFUL three years.

For me, I have learned that I would rather be alone, divorced and dealing with THAT reality, than giving a wayward spouse the 'benefit of the doubt'. I truly believe that the WS SHOULD show remorse, be contrite and have hit bottom, so that they are willing to change their behaviors, just as we BS's have chosen to change ours (Plan A). If they don't come back, then you are better off, IMHO.

Mark's post resonated with me, as well as SMB's. I am still dealing with the emotional and physical trauma from all of the hell I've trudged thru.

I never felt at ease, never felt even the slightest bit safe or cared for. I knew, deep down, I did not matter in his life. Only he mattered, his pain. Hindsight is 20/20, but I KNEW in the moment that I was on thin ice. If I had it to do over again, I would have gone Plan B the second time I asked him to leave (after finding MB), no light in sight, darkness, and not acknowledged his existence, if/until he was carrying the load.

I had already shown my willingness to do the work necessary to recover.

(((SL))))

SL, have you been on T2L's thread? If not, I think you could be of help to her if you have the time and don't mind stopping by there.

This is my first time posting, as I have been a lurker for about 1 year. I believe I have been in recovery for the past 11 months. My first D-day (my husband confessed) was april 2006. My husband had a 2 month affair with a married co-worker that lasted 2 months. He agreed to end the affair and do anything to regain my trust and the marriage back. We went to marriage counseling for 1 year which in hindsight we were given terrible advice. I did not know of MB... We were advised that our marriage could be recovered even if he continued to work with her. So stupidly I listened to the advice and did not require my husband to leave his job. Fast forward 1+ year..I thought that we had made it through 1 year. I knew that our marriage was not perfect but we were doing okay. Talked about having our second baby. He was in full agreement to come off birth control. Got pregnant. Found out that the affair never ended when I was 9 weeks pregnant. Ouch!!!! I was blown away to say the least. Felt completely trapped! My husband left me in an awful position. Again at this point I did not have the advantage of knowing the MB principles. I kicked him out of the house and saw a divorce lawyer. She advised me that I was really in a precarious position financially and emotionally. I was 6 months away from having a baby, without the help of my husband, no local family, unable to work for a while, financially strapped etc... My lawyer and financial adviser both encouraged me to try and work things out...Long story/short he returned home. Put his hand on the bible and told me that he ended things for sure this time and swore to having no further contact with her. (At this point she had left his workplace) Of course these were lies. He continued to have his cake.
Finally I was 2 months from my due date. I was at a complete breaking point. I was in shock that I was about to have a baby and my husband was still actively involved in his affair. It was amazing to me that he could give up our marriage and risk bonding with our new baby. I guess he reached rock bottom too when he realized this and finally really ended the affair on the phone in my presence. He left his job. We relocated out of state. He did individual counseling. I have found MB and we have been doing the home study course.

So in hindsight...I wish that I had found MB earlier and learned about Plan A and Plan B. I forgave him too quickly, never required him to leave his job. He convinced me that it would be the demise of his career. Did not realize that it would be the demise of our marriage. I gave him the benefit of the doubt way too many times. I believed he could not possibly be having an affair while I was pregnant. Even when I knew things did not seem right I did not press him enough or snoop enough. He was often vague about details of his day. Got annoyed when I asked too many questions. All big red flags. Also, I did not expose enough. I was afraid of his anger. Looking back I cannot believe how naive I was. I was always the one talking in marriage counseling. He would agree most of the time that I was right and he would try to do better in the future but would never change his actions. He would talk a good game but no real commitment. No vulnerability with regards to his emotions.

So in about 2 weeks we will hit our 1 year mark with NC (as far as I know). As I have said we moved out of sate but prior to our move she attempted contact through phone calls to his work phone. He would allow me to listen to the messages. That lasted for the first month after his NC phone call. Our baby is now 9.5 months and he can't imagine what life would have been like if he continued in the affair. He would have missed the birth and many special bonding moments that only a live-in father would have. He says that it makes him sick. I think he is sincere and my gut tells me that this is a real recovery but there is always a lingering thought of WHAT IF.... What if I am still an idiot? I don't think so but I hope that feeling goes away some day.
Sorry if my story is not very organized but I am trying to summarize a period of about 3 years.

(me) BW-36
WH-35
3 yo and 9 month old
1st dday 4/19/06
2nd dday 10/12/07
3rd dday 2/4/08
NC 3/4/08
In recovery

ashes - I started a thread just for you

It really is a joy to me to see you ladies, SMB and MarriedForever, in TRULY recovering marriages. It was a long PRE recovery haul for you both.

I'm certainly not perfect, and have made my own share of mistakes along the way. What I have learned will take me a long way in my next relationship and it has helped a great deal with having the tools to teach my boy how to be a man.

If I had one set of advice for anyone reading this, set the bar HIGH. Do not SETTLE, not even a little. Do your part, change your own behaviors, but never lower that bar. I know this is easier SAID than done, but it really is the best thing for everyone involved in the end.

Find your boundaries and your terms for recovery and stick by them.

SMB,
I have not been a frequent flyer on T2L's thread. I have read here and there. She seems to have lots of help.

In the end, it's not how much help you have, it's your willingness to accept it.

And IMHO, the willingness to be willing to do WHATEVER it takes...Even when it's NOT what you WANT to do.

SL, I have watched you walk this journey in pain and my mind just wants to smack the WH, he is losing such an incredible woman.

Last night I had what I can only describe as a PTSD response to a trigger. FR's create scars so deep and hair trigger responses to certain situations that, for me, were happening during the A/FR's.

SL, tst and I were reading this last night and he said to me...

Yes, it was a long haul for you...

Yes, it is a truly recovering marriage...

Yes, it is a joy.

Then with tears in his eyes, he kissed my hand.





Yes, she does. But your insight is very valuable. She doesn't have Plan Bers on her thread that I know of. (I think MF has stopped by a few times briefly.)




Brilliant!

I talk to her offlist frequently so don't post to her much on it. I've already told her my opinion

Thank you, SL.

The following was written by TogetherAlone.
It's an accurate account of how most marriage recovery starts.... just beautifully stated!


(from the notable posts thread)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"I think an awful lot of things about recovering from infidelity are almost impossibly hard to do. It takes a huge amount of personal growth on the part of both spouses, but if both of you can manage it, the recovered marriage is not the real reward - the true prize is the strength, stamina and maturity you've had to acquire to get there.

If there are young children involved, then making the supreme effort to build up the muscle and climb the mountain is well worth the trying.

The trouble is that, in most cases, only one of you is motivated to start the climb IN THE BEGINNING. The BS has to set out on his/her own, in the hope that the WS will wake up and start putting in the effort at some point. You're working on yourself while the WS is sulking, whining, feeling sorry for themselves and acting like a martyr. That's a really tough time.

You know, I think that's the turning point in most marriages here that get through - when the BS sets out on the journey on their own. Setting boundaries, refusing to be gaslighted, being clear about what they want, taking their own audit of personal weaknesses and dependencies, becoming a strong, clear-thinking person. When the WS 'gets' that this is happening, they either start shaping up, or they run away.

Either way, the BS emerges a bigger human being.

Not one of us would have asked to be hit by infidelity, any more than we want cancer or the death of a child. But the big crises that hit us are the best opportunities we have to grow in character and integrity."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This particular paragraph is very relevant to this thread:

You know, I think that's the turning point in most marriages here that get through - when the BS sets out on the journey on their own. Setting boundaries, refusing to be gaslighted, being clear about what they want, taking their own audit of personal weaknesses and dependencies, becoming a strong, clear-thinking person. When the WS 'gets' that this is happening, they either start shaping up, or they run away.


Taking audit of personal weaknesses and dependencies --- this is the basis of personal integrity. .... and, as it turns out, the basis of recovery, both personal and marital (if the WS does his/her own personal audit as well).

Taking a WS back in absence both spouses being willing to take an honest personal inventory, is the basis for FR.

(I know this seems obvious, but it is a recently discovered truth for me)

This gave me chills, SMB...I llove hearing FWSs who "get it", and are able to empathize with the BS and are not afraid to feel or show true, deepfelt remorse.

I agree with this...the tricky part for the BS is RECOGNIZING what is needed.

It's so very hard when you are in the thick of it and you cannot see the forest for the trees.

I believe it TOOK Plan B for me to be able to see this clearly...I needed to get out from under the SPELL FWH was putting over me with the gaslighting and manipulating.

In hindsight, I almost wish my PB was longer. 6 weeks isn't long enough.

I have a few books that I HIGHLY, HIGHLY recommend that the BS read during PB, in preparation for possibly getting into recovery:

"Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend
"Love Must Be Tough" by Dobson

These are the highest priority. A few others that were helpful to me are:

"My Husband's Affair Became the Best Thing That Ever Happened to Me" by Anne Bercht <

<I HATE the title of this book and it was hard for me to even get passed it to begin reading it. However, it is a great personal account of what one can expect in recovery. I also gave it to my mom to read so that she could know and understand a little better about what I was going through, and that was helpful.

This book is how I found MB...there is a list in the back of helpful websites, so I am ever grateful for this book>

"Co-Dependent No More" This was helpful to ME, in order to be able to stick to my boundaries. It can be a bit tricky to NOT use the principles in regards to POJA and some other MB principles, but overall it was helpful to me.

***Note: this list is assuming the books by Dr. Harley have been read***

bump

It sure has been a while...and enough time has passed where I can honestly see clearly.

The biggest advice I can give is to ignore the words and pay attention to the actions. Talk is cheap, and the WS is a master of deception. I believed things that I can not even fathom right now, I was hurt and I wanted to believe what I was being told.

My first FR lasted almost an entire summer. I knew he was still in contact, but since he was living back at home again, I allowed myself to be fooled into thinking that they were dying out. He said all the "right" things to soothe me into thinking we were on the recovery track. His actions lacked...and therefore recovery never had a chance.

My second piece of advice is NO CONTACT IS A DEAL-BREAKER!! YOU WILL NOT RECOVER AS LONG AS THEY HAVE ANY CONTACT.

When our final and "real" recovery started there was honesty and accountability. Trust but verify. I was able to address triggers without throwing the A in his face, he would talk with me in a caring manor and help me deal with it and answer whatever questions I had.

Following the MB plan and listening to advice here, helped me deal with the A in a very rational and adult way (I am not saying that I wasn't an emotional wreck, but I didn't let THEM see it). I do not condone my FWS actions, but I understand our role in getting to that place. I refuse to let it define him as a person. We have a wonderful relationship now; we meet each others ENs. It makes my heart smile to know he has the utmost respect and admiration for me.

I hope I didn't veer off task too much

bump,

just b/c this thread is so insightful

It seems like the BS's who don't want their WS's back at all, after discovering an affair, have the best chance of no false recoveries. Probably because the WS gets immediately what he has done. He made a choice that just cost him everything. And there is nothing like a cold hard dose of "I just made the most costly error of my life and have lost everything" to wake a WS up.

But most BS's are rendered scared, due to their own insecurities, to walk away upon DD. Most, as Faith said, are guided by their own guilt at not being a very good spouse and allow this to add further to their insecurities.

A WS, upon discovery, finds out pretty quickly if they can fence sit, or if they have just entered into the fight of their life to keep the BS from walking away and never looking back.

If you have decided to do a Plan A, because your marriage was not so good, then like a Plan A where you EXPECT continued contact and EXCEPT that an affair is going on, and will continue to go on during this Plan A, you should also expect that there will be false recoveries. Maybe false recoveries are part of the growth phase of recovery and of a BS becoming strong.

Even after going into a dark PLAN B, a BS who has grown accustomed to weakness on your part and the allowance of fence sitting, probably won't be truly "there" yet.

For me, in the R I was in, if I had not been acting from a place of extreme need and insecurity, I would have seen clearly that he was still lying and playing me. It was pretty obvious, looking back, that he was in it to get the most for himself that he could.

People need to be strong, both men and women, in order to come from a place of real and productive love.

This was the biggest falacy of my life, thinking women didn't need to be strong. That it wasn't attractive, or sexy, or desirable.

I am now both strong and loving. But it's taken a whole lifetime of kicks to wake up and finally get it.

Totally agree with this.

Agreed! Now that my WW sees me prepared to end the marriage at the drop of the hat, she has stopped fence-sitting. I wish I hadn't been so desperate at the beginning because I contributed to a horrible drawn-out battle to end the affair and get my wife to return home. It took 5 false starts to get to the current point, and I have no idea if I'm outta the woods yet. It's been distinctly different since my wife has become aware of how fragile my resolve to the the marriage is.

WoW

good one my friend

OMG! This is so, so TRUE. I allowed my WH to cake eat so long that it became a fun, challenge for him to see just how long he could fool me. I really believe that he thought he could keep it going forever. But, like all BS's I reached the breaking point. Now that the D date is set, I think he sees that I meant business.

One day I decided to go for a walk
I didnt know where I was going
I came to a road
I chose to go down this road
as I was walking I fell into a hole
I didnt see it
It was an accident

The next day I decided to go for a walk again
I came to the same road & again chose to walk down it
I fell into the same hole
I forgot it was there

The next day I went for a walk
I chose again to walk down the same road & although I knew the hole was there I still fell in it
I was angry with myself

The following day I went for a walk
I chose to walk down that same road again
This time I was determined not to fall in the hole again so I walked round it but half way round I slipped & fell into the hole again
I was so depressed about it

The next day I went for a walk again
I walked down that same road but before I reached the hole I paused, I wanted to walk past this hole without falling into it but I knew I would
I decided to turn around & go home
I felt proud of myself for not taking the chance

The following day I went for a walk
I decided to walk down a different road

Agreed. Even though I didn't experience FR, trickle truth or ommission of other WTF deception can be equally as devastating IMO.

to you all for this thread. You are some of the strongest people I 'know.'

Hi Sugar Cane,

I missed your response. Yes, I am still with him. I want to clarify what I meant by kick him out. What I meant was that he never faced consequences for his actions, I didn't insist on it. I didn't protect myself. That is what boundaries do.

Currently I still have huge trust issues. My gut says that he is here for financial purposes only.

I do have to say we have become friends again, but not really spouses.

I look back and question my own memories, were we ever happy or was it a facade on both sides? My wh said that he didn't think that we would stay married when we first were married due to the divorces his sisters had. He just assumed we would too. I didn't realize this was a temp. state, this marriage thing, so now I don't even know what the vows meant. Can't say I have much clarity even today.

I do know that I have to pick myself up, dust myself off, square my shoulders and continue to face each day.

It would be a lot easier if I could forgive myself though....

bump for Gabby

Hi

A late comer to this thread and not as experienced as many...

but where I KNOW I went wrong had less to do with how tuned in I was to my FWH's state of mind or intentions, than how aware I was of my own desperation and vulnerability. Looking back, I KNEW I was believing him because I was still desperately wanting what he said to be true. I SAW him breaking small boundaries and conditions and let it happen because I wanted him back more than he (really)wanted to be back. I set a time line and conditions and rushed them all. He deceived me but I let it happen despite my valid gut feelings and doubts because I wanted to believe the nightmare was over.

An IC I saw gave me some good advice, which was to think of what I would advise my daughter to do in the same situation, before each subsequent decision I made, and I kind of applied this the second time around. I realised that what I had accepted as good enough for me I would NEVER have considered good enough for her. I managed to remember that what I KNEW about him from experience was that he was capable of cheating and lying, and he had to PROVE to me that there was no cheating and lying at every step of the way. And still does. And I got better at examining my first reactions and identifying when I was believing something based on the evidence and when I was believing something because I was desperate to believe it.

Bit of a ramble, but the gist of it is that staying alert to the possibility that you are vulnerable and could allow yourself to be deceived is maybe as important as staying alert to the possiblity that your WS is still in deceitful mode.

A clear head and strength to all of us!!!

Aprill

Aprill, great post. This is what we usually encounter when newly betrayed spouses arrive on the scene. They believe what they WANT TO BELIEVE rather than what is TRUE. They are in SHOCK and do not want to believe what is right before their faces. So when we tell them the truth, at first they are often ANGRY as hell and accuse us of being "bitter" or "in pain."

It would be so much easier to just go along with them, but those of us who have been through this, all know that denial will only work against them. Facing the facts and acting on their behalf is the only solution.


This is hard to do for a person who is wracked with grief and terror but you have hit the nail on the head. The ones who make it are the ones who PUT ASIDE their emotions and instead follow INSTINCTS and LOGIC. Instincts are usually RIGHT. Emotions send us off on in the wrong direction because they are concerned with what we WANT instead of what is TRUE.


Agree absolutely! I think the forum can help in this regard. All the "bitter," "pain wracked," "suspicious"... "jealous" posters can point out the deceit.

Great post, April!

Thanks Mel!! As a long time lurker and not-often-poster (I tend to find the answers in someone-else's post cos we really ARE following the same script!!!(and I live across the world in the wrong timezone)) I have to say you are right and the forum does help see through the fog. And the counsel of wise women and men like yourself, Pep, tst, schoolbus and SO many others was a real lifeline in my darkest hours for which I will always be grateful. And I agree, sometimes the advice seems harsh at first, but its not as harsh as realising that the one person in the world you trusted to love and cherish you would willing deceive you AGAIN, because he saw that he could get away with it.

But I think it's not only in the horrible pain of the 'newly betrayed' state that judgement can be impaired - I think when I felt like I was 'coping' and was feeling strong in plan B, I was hiding from myself the fact that I was following the plan, appearing strong and determined, as a kind of desperate 'bargaining', that if I did it all right he WOULD come back, and so was all too happy to believe it when he seemed to be doing that. Kind of like the bargaining stage in grief - if I get this right he WILL come back and I've done it all right so this MUST be true, he MUST be coming back. So the willingness to believe what was not true continued well past the initial shock for me, and the fact that I seemed to be coping and feeling strong in Plan B before our FR was really part of the denial that this COULD be the end of my marriage and he would maybe never come back.

So I think there are maybe 2 'danger' times for FR; in the initial pain of the newly betrayed, and in those who convince themselves they are doing a 'dark' plan B when they're desperately clinging to the belief that if they just 'do this right', their WS's will come back...all the while peering anxiously out from behind closed curtains trying to see their BS's every move. Which is what I was doing.



Aprill

bump

The saddest thing for me to accept is that we could have a false recovery anytime. It could be right now or 5 years from now. The blind trust that I had before the betrayal was the biggest mistake that I have made. I wanted to believe so I ignored my gut over and over again. I made every excuse imaginable to ignore what was right in front of me. I had my husband on a pedestal and he was just a normal man. I don't take anything for granted anymore.

bump

Bump for Brutallyhonest28 (and lots of others).

Bump for armymama

bump

bump

I went back and read my posts from a year ago. It is amazing to look back with 20/20 hindsight and examine my thoughts and feelings.

Some red flags of false recovery that I ignored at the time:

- I made wholesale changes in the way I treated my WW...and she went about things business as usual
- Got her flowers, card and gift for Valentine's day...she got me nothing
- She read a little from book that IC gave her, but only day before their next appointment. Never picked up SAA although i left it around the house
- Never brought up subject of the Affair to me...I was always one initiating conversation on this topic
- I hinted that I needed the nitty-gritty details of the hookup, but she never brought up the subject...(she eventually did...)
- I felt like she was just existing, waiting for this to fade in to the past.
- Said "I need to be a better wife" but did little to show me. Lots of talk, very little action.
- Filled out ENQ and I peeked at hers (I'm meeting those top ENs), but she didn't ask to see mine (months later she did)


The very good peeps here kept telling me something was not right, something smelled rotten in Denmark...but I would not listen. Thankfully I snooped...and ultimately discovered OM#4...it was Plan D from there. LG, out

*bump* for RidicSit

Basically a "false/failed recovery" (and I had inklings of several both before and after divorce) occurs when one of the following is present:

1. The A is unknown, hidden, or unadmitted to the BS (cake-eating)
2. The A is known but ongoing in secret (no-contact lied about or never initiated)
3. The A resumes because no-contact isn't maintained (boundaries/separation not enforced vigorously by the WS)
4. The A is truly over but the WS refuses to own-up & earn back trust (no "just compensation")
5. The A is truly over but the BS refuses to fully reconcile (as is his/her right to decide)

The vast majority of FRs (#s 1-4) occur because the WS/fWS still values the affair/OP more than they do the marriage/BS.

BUMPING

BUMP

for Hopeful30

DNU1, your list sounds like my WH now. I hope I'm not in another false recovery. Makes me really think.

I was totally honest with her and explained how I found out things (I admitted to the keylogger, voice recorder). Now she knew how to defeat that.

I didnt try really hard to get her into counseling with the Harleys - she said she wanted to do her plan - I know, it was stupid, it was no plan

I didn't put anything on her cell phone to track web use/messaging.

I didn't continue to snoop as much.

She did not want to divulge details of affair - said it was a love buster b/c it made her feel ashamed - not too ashamed that she did it with someone else

I brought up the affair - and subsequent arguments - too much - but I was nearly perfect in every other way - she was just not committed

She told people that you shouldn't have to try, shouldn't have to work at being in love with your husband. It should just be there. She took the easy road out by getting infatuated with a high school friend on Facebook during our recovery and quit.

1. I wish I would have started snooping right away. I wish I would have installed the key logger months ago. I wish I woud have not talked about the OW so much, reason being is that I think I kept her alive.

2. I don't think I missed cluses that he wasn't ready, I think we were healing the wrong way. I nagged day in and day out which in turn made our relationship seem like more work then it was worth. When I tell you I had him up until like 3 or 4 in the morning yelling and discussing the OW, that is not an exaggeration.

3. If you want something to die, you have to starve it. In the beginning get all of your questions out, yell and scream if you have to. But once you decide to take you WS back, at some point you have to let it go. Don't mess up a new day with the mistakes from yesterday.

My husband went back to the OW only in the since of conversating over the phone. She listened to him complain about me, she was a shoulder for him to lean on, at the time I wasn't. I kept her alive, but she is now dead to us because I no longer discuss her, thus allowing him to get over their emotional attachment. She's out of his site, out of his mind. If I could take it back, I would have not talked about her everyday for 4 months, yes literally I talked about her every day for 4 months.

I know how you feel
But I have to say I haven't done that...
But I have talked about it maybe once a month...
I am working on breaking that habit...

I did it when I seen he sent her jokes email...
He hasn't seen her in 9 months...
I think you are right though
Let her die by me keep bring it up
just makes him think about the OW I am sure
It would me...

And things are good here till I do bring it up...
So I am going to try and take your advice...
On letting her die...

Thank You

bump

Uh oh......this sounds too familiar

Some of these things can be done and you can STILL be in a FR. For example:

During our FR my H took me out for an amazing dinner and gave me flowers, a card and a g.c. for a spa treatment.


My H DID bring it up on occasion and even went so far as to tell me all the gory details (I'd asked); he told me how disgusted he was by the OW and the A and other things I hadn't asked.


We both did the ENQ and we discussed it.

Even though my H did these things it was his ATTITUDE that should have clued me in that something was very, very wrong. He went through phases where it was very clear he wanted to work things out and that he was sorry but he was still distant and just...not himself at all.

He would also go through phases of being unusually cruel. APs bring out the worst in waywards and that's always a huge clue.

MF is oh so correct...the clearest indicator for me was the cruelty in his behavior and the coldness.

Right. Truly, my H is a different man now. I cannot believe how the A and AP changed him during that time into someone he really is not.

1. WHAT did you do that you wish you'd done differently?

I wish I had found MB sooner. I wish I would have asked him to change jobs immediately. I wish I had listened to my gut. I wish I had kicked him out sooner and remained silent longer. I wish I had not allowed him into our home to see the kids...completely dark. I wish I had not told him how I knew information...that just made him sneakier.

2. WHAT clues did you miss (or ignore) that your WS was not ready for recovery?

He did not change. He didn't initiate change. He did not seem present. He continued to get blocked calls (told me they were from police officers) He got emailed texts. He continued to delete messages.

3. WHAT lessons did you learn that you'd like to pay forward to others, so that they might avoid a FR?

If it is a co-worker WS MUST CHANGE JOBS. No matter how much you need the $, no matter if they say they can avoid each other...no matter what. Do not trust too soon. I did not snoop deeply enough. Expose to WS family members.

My FWH used an email I did not know he had ONLY on his work computer so I could not track it. She called him through the general work line and had them transfer her so it could not be traced on her phone. WS are so good as deception.

For me -- We just stepped into FR on Friday --

I wish I had exposed from the very beginning.(unfortunately,there were underlying conditions keeping me from fully exposing)

I wish I had listened to the wonderful people on here when so many of them said that everything I was saying sounded like his A was still going on. I tried to justify the reasons that I thought it was over.

What clues did I miss? His resistance to talk about the A. If he saw I was upset, he'd get so mad and say "can't you just drop it?" or things like that. He was very defensive if I'd question his whereabouts. He was deleting calls from her.

What lessons did I learn? Unfortunately, I am still learning them. It's NOT my fault. I shouldn't feel bad exposing because this was HIS choice. WH can tell lie after lie and not blink an eye over it. Don't be too quick to believe WS is telling you the truth.

My false recovery was last year. I am now divorced. We had a 4 month false recovery that I led. My ex went along with my plan. It was never his plan. He never volunteered information. I always did the discovering to obtain the truth. I did the exposure - which he detested. I did plan A but I could have been better at eliminating LBs. I never thought I needed Plan B because my husband had agreed to NC and I thought we were recovering. He would also get mad if I acted hurt or had questions about the affair. He apologized often but was grudging in setting up EPs. He was never completely honest. He broke NC four months into our false recovery and filed for divorce shortly after that. A BS can lead a marriage into recovery if the WS joins them and participates. It cannot be successful if the BS is doing all the work.

Falsity (from Latin falsitas) or falsehood is a perversion of truth originating in the deceitfulness of one party, and culminating in the damage of another party.

Well, I guess I can finally answer the questions on this thread. Thanks for bumping it for me last November. It was very helpful then. Here is my experience:

After 15 months of NC, my H contacted the W via email and telephone for about 10 days. He then lied about the contact for 3 more months. I do think we are in recovery now. It has been very difficult and the false recovery made it that much harder.

1. WHAT did you do that you wish you'd done differently?

I wish that we had attended an MB weekend earlier. We had been working on the home study course. But we did not have any accountability for the lessons and no one to discuss issues that arose during the lessons. When H refused to commit to openness and honesty, I wish I had realized that meant he was still lying.


2. WHAT clues did you miss (or ignore) that your WS was not ready for recovery?

H was very depressed. He had a long withdrawal period. This was exacerbated by discussion of the A. I would uncover lies, have an AO, H would be depressed. It was a viscious cycle.

The comments about attitude are huge. I was pushing and pulling recovery and H was along for the ride - not totally committed. After the false recovery, I stepped back and H took the lead. He became the one to schedule our planning time for UA, get out our MB books, etc.

3. WHAT lessons did you learn that you'd like to pay forward to others, so that they might avoid a FR?

I learned to not be afraid. During the FR, both OWH and I said something like, "Well, if you want to be together, go do it." I wrote a Plan Bish letter and told H that I never wanted to see him again. I laid out my bottom line requirements to return home (he was visiting his mother when he broke contact). For a period of time, he did them half-heartedly. I then told H tha if he wasn't all in, he would be all out. Overcoming my fear was my bigest step. If I had done that earlier, I would have presented my boundries better and perhaps avoided nearly 2 years of wasted time.

UA time for recovery and a good marriage is critical. If a couple is not spending at least 15-20 hours per week meeting the four critical ENs, I think recovery is hampered, maybe impossible.

My story is on my thread, recovery - take two, in the recovery forum.

AM

*BUMP*

Bumping for foreignaffair.

BUMP

Thanks for keeping this bumped up...

Intears .... reread this.

These quotes are from a thread on the Surviving An Affair forum.
I think this forum might use this for easy reference, when necessary.
Feel free to add your own thoughts. (I know you will )









And, next, we hear it from the "horse's mouth" a WH who inflicted a FR upon his BW .... EXCELLENT INFORMATION !!!

For emphasis.
Often the FR is MORE damaging to the M than the original affair.

And .... to finish off the old quotes from the other thread ....



Do not FEAR a FALSE RECOVERY.
Take the steps to prevent a false recovery.

These wonderful MBers have taken their time to PAY IT FORWARD .... posting to YOU the hard/painful lessons they learned.

Yes, it is possible to learn from the mistakes of others.

What a great compilation of writings you've put together in one thread.

Thanks for all you do!

FR is included in my link at the bottom of this post.

Bump

I wished I would have NOT


- committed LBs. Mainly AOs, and DJs.

- I wished that I would have went straight into plan B after he refused my list of extraordinary precautions, and refused to negotiate my needs.


- His reluctance to extraordinary precautions, and reluctance to negotiate my needs.

- His reluctance for complete and total honesty.


- Listen to your gut. Don't second guess yourself because your WS sounds convincing at times, even when deep down you know it's not adding up. Don't wait for months thinking your WS will eventually see the light and fess up. It'll destroy you emotionally, and physically.

- Get a polygraph test if you don't think you have the whole story. 99% chance you don't have the whole story, and intimacy and recovery will never happen without it.

- If they're not willing to negotiate your needs, agree to extraordinary precautions, and follow it up with actions, RUN, do not walk to the nearest plan B exit. You will save yourself emotional torture, and may even save your marriage.

I learned these lessons the HARD way, and I can't go back in time and fix it now. Listen to your gut, and more importantly, the plans of MB.

Do not FEAR a FALSE RECOVERY.
Take the steps to prevent a false recovery.

These wonderful MBers have taken their time to PAY IT FORWARD .... posting to YOU the hard/painful lessons they learned.

Yes, it is possible to learn from the mistakes of others.



B.U.M.P.

Basically have been in a FR for the past 3.5 years....so I will try to pay it forward...


Things I wish I had done differently:

~ followed through with poly (I think 90% or more BSs should do this step and make sure they have gotten the full truth and nothing else is being hidden because without the full truth, the wayward will stay sick)

~ had required my WH to post here on MB after dday 1 instead of dday 3. His posting revealed how wayward he still was and probably has been all of this time (His thread is here ). And as a very wise MB friend has told me (Melody), the experienced MB posters have the very best bullsh*t detectors around and can see the situation more objectively than you can yourself when you are in the situation. I would say if there are ANY red flags in your situation, require your WS to post here.

~ looked at my WH's actions more than his words and also paid more attention to the red flags than focus on the positives. Markos wrote something very good to my WH that I think highlights this point:


So while my H was seemingly willing to do everything I asked him (coach with Steve, leave his job, write out EPs, etc) and was saying all of the right things, the biggest red flag that I missed was that he did not acknowledge his weakness and implement EPs to truly protect against that weakness. If I was looking more closely at what he was doing rather than what he was saying, I wouldn't have missed it or allowed myself to be gaslit...

Hope this helps...

It certainly helps.
God Bless.

Some of the things I wished I would've done during that FR. were the following:

1) I wish I would've been the one mailing the NC letter! I still don't think she ever did send it.

2) Facebook would be gone ( I remember an instance when I saw she added a guy as a friend-when confronted she told me "I only thought you meant Hot guys")! Cell phone number would have changed ( I was told-"He will never try contacting me" Wrong!

3) Have her take a polygraph! I don't think she told me everything, matter of fact pretty sure she didn't. I still want the truth, probably will never get it even though I think I at least deserve it.

4) I would have exposed to the om mother sooner than what I did. Probably would have found more people on his end to expose to.

5) I still question myself for even giving her a second chance. She was not remorseful enough. That should've been a huge clue....I don't think she ever really tried to recover our marriage-just kept telling herself she wanted that fantasy with the om.
(I say that but on the other side it made me a better husband and person for doing it. I am confident I will be the man a lucky woman wants someday and that I will be happy) It is too bad that my ww just will never realize that!!!

6) I am really glad I am in a very Dark plan B now though. She put me through h#ll--I feel I am still there but on the outer edge seeing the light. Waywards never know the damage they have inflicted until it is too late.

BUMP

1.������ �What would I have done differently?
�
Wish I would have found MB earlier.� Filed for D immediately to show that I was serious and not just settling for crumbs.� I would have exposed far and wide immediately even after it was revealed.� Also I would have set the bar very high, which I did not, and at the first sign of trouble I would have been gone. I would have paid POSOM a personal visit.� And listen to the Vet�s here, no matter the situation and no matter how much you may disagree with them or think �your WS is unique�

�

2.������ �What clues did I miss?
�
WW wasn�t remorseful, felt entitled to it, she had no concept of the damage she did.� Never talked about the A and what it meant to her, was vague about the details.� I led the entire process while she sat back.� She remained in a low level fog the entire time.� Had a month or two of HB but as we moved forward she became more and more self involved, everything became about her.� AO from her became more frequent, she would go through spurts of wanting SF, practically begging, then weeks w/o any interest.� She started becoming more concerned about her appearance and washing her hair every morning.� She developed a friendly relationship with a single family friend that I did not approve of and refused to stop.� There were red flags along the entire way.� The times that she did reach out�.were very weak attempts, no real action.
�
3.������ �What would I pay forward?
�
Watch them like a hawk, verify everything.� The smallest behavior, the smallest lie even about something that has no bearing on the situation is a huge red flag.� Have zero mercy when it comes to exposing, if people don�t like it then they can choose to ignore it or shut their mouth.� In respect with WW and no children, if they are not pulling their weight in recovery�..cut them loose and remove yourself as an option and enter plan D or B, no questions.� Take the EP�s very seriously.� Remove any/one/thing from the situation that enabled the A, it all has to go.
�
IMO the more you hang on to them when they are in the A�..the farther they will run.
�
They truly are dying piece by piece inside no matter how �happy� they seem.
�
And always expect the unexpected.�

�

BUMP

I would have eliminated FB and twitter immediately. It was one of my husbands EP's for me and I stalled for a long time. Now we can just "be" and we are a-ok without it! Though we did not experience a FR, the triggers were huge every time I logged on and hampered my personal recovery.

Thanks, TexasSun.
God bless.

BUMP for those who are obviously headed for a FALSE RECOVERY !!!!
(in meek hope he will read this thread)

BUMP for a reminder....

Curious to know if those in a recovery or a FR were living together at the time or had been in Plan B prior? I am currently in Plan B and I know that I am some time away from a recovery if ever.
But...hypothetically, if my WH would contact my IM and start the process, would I want my WH move in with me and the kids and take the chance of a FR, or would a recovery be possible living apart? I think that there is much he could do on his own without us living together such as his own personal recovery.
Would love everyone's thoughts on this.

From Dr. Harley's letter on MB site: While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s spouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder."

"In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. But other situations such as physical and verbal abuse, where one spouse's mental or physical safety is as risk, are also grounds for separation. As in the case of infidelity, if one spouse is abusive, I often recommend plan A first, where, through negotiation (without anger, disrespect or demands), an attempt is made to overcome the abuse without separating."

link: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

bump

1) I would have exposed to OW's family and employer (and not just my FWH's) at the FIRST D-day.

Our outcome may have been different, and my H might have been in trouble at work (I respected his job WAY more than he and OW did), but she would have suffered consequences immediately that would have made her stop contacting him after he told her it was over, again and again and again.

2) I would have called our cell phone company and blocked her and her family's numbers on D-day #1 instead of D-day #2.

This strategy might not have done much good at that point as my FWH would not have been on board with it. (God only knows I tried and he said he'd just unblock her if I did.) She was his supervisor at work; That was the original justification for her being allowed to text him all the time and my not being allowed to do anything about it.

3) I should have come to my H's work and confronted his boss way back when I first knew she was texting him too much, but he said it was no big deal, and I didn't want to interfere with his professional life because he'd asked me not to.

4) I should NOT have listened to the marriage counselor when she encouraged me to concede to WH's wild-eyed imploring: "Don't you come to my store!" Like I was crazy and irrational for not trusting him, like I might cause a scene. In the end it was OW (not ME!) who caused the embarrassing scene for herself and FWH.

5) I should have found MB website earlier so I would have been able to recognize that the affair would resume if I was a doormat. (I plan A'ed for 7 months w/o even knowing what Plan A was or that I would sustain physical and psychological damage by making Plan A a way of life and not knowing how to live without him, eat w/o him, sleep w/o him.)

6) I would have kept my head instead of wearing my heart on my sleeve and showing O&H to my WH while he trickle-truthed me and romanced me with UA while still talking to OW. I should have been firm and told him no SF while still in contact with OW.

I think everything has been covered- but I guess what I want to point out was the huge difference in reaction from him- when the affair ended for good.

When the false recovery was busted- when the truth was learned- when I exposed like a streaker in a World Series game- and the affair was officially over - he became despondent and upset. Crushed. Sad. And in severe withdrawal.

It showed me- even though it was hard to take- and he did find himself booted back out the door for not getting a grip- that the dynamic had changed, and there was nothing taken underground. It was truly over.

One of my friends describes an affair as being stabbed in the gut by your spouse - but a false recovery as having the knife twisted while your spouse looks you in the eye.

I would agree with that. Completely.

Wow.
This says it all.

Bump for anyone at risk of a FR.

I hope this story serves as a warning for anyone starting recovery.
To start, I did not have this forum to guide me. I was reading some of the good Dr�s writings but at that time did not incorporate it into my life. How I wish I could turn back time�. Leading up to dday, I had suspicions for months. I completely cleared up my side of the fence (which was mainly LB�s) and I am very proud of the person I became. Snooping did the job and the A was revealed.

Quick summary. Married 14yrs, DD5 DS 7. FWW had 9 mo EA/PA with POSOM. Started on FB. Dday was March 2011. Upon discovery, kicked her out of the house that night. Never in a million years did I consider the possibility of reconciliation.

One week later, FWW wanted to work things out and my conditions were simple. 1)Never lie to me ever again. 2)No contact with OM for life. She agreed. (how na�ve I was�) She agreed and we stared to think about working things out.

We had no plan at that time. She got an apartment and we started spending time together. I was putting in everything I had to show her the person I was becoming (Plan A). My participation was solely based on the 2 above agreed upon items.

We plotted along for several months and every time I asked if there had been any contact, I got a murky response which was never clear. But, somehow I believed her (stupid me). I had no ability to snoop on her work computer and wanted to believe her so bad that I continued to Plan A like a rock star. At the time, I didn�t think about Plan A, I was just being genuinely me..a kind and generous person.

So, time went along. We began to spend more and more time together. As time went along, I wasn�t getting a firm commitment to recovery from her. I was more a feeling that �let�s see how things go�.

Fast forward to January 2012. Upon snooping and questioning of several things, I discovered they had secretly set up email accounts and had been communicating the entire time. The A had never ended. They had 2 secret rendezvous at a public restaurant. One in June 2011 and one in July 2011.

I had been lied to continuously for another 9 months. FR. Needless to say, I was devastated. Didn�t think she would ever stop lying to me and at that point it was over for me. My chips were cashed in. Done. Done. Done. Told her we would be divorcing and that was that.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ME.
What was actually happening during this 9mo time, is that she was indeed falling back in love with me (by some crazy miracle). When I called for D, this shook her back into reality as she now really saw how special our family is.

The reality of being lied to during our FR was more devastating than the A itself. I was completely beheaded and it completely drained her LB account for me. My love for her was gone. I had no desire to continue with this marriage at all.
Then, by the grace of God, she GOT IT. We have taken MB�s and fully incorporated them into our M. MB is the only thing that is saving us.

Now, what is the moral of the story? Listen to the vets on this site. Follow MB to the tee. I really believe that if I would have had MB, we could have avoided a FR.

Oh, how I wish I could not answer these questions! But, fate has brought me here. I hope this can be of help to others. First, I wish I would have know of MB years ago. I truly believe we would have never reached this tragic place we find ourselves in today.

1. WHAT did you do that you wish you'd done differently?

I made a big mistake on dday. I immediately kicked her out of the house that night and went straight to divorce proceedings. I had no idea that anyone could ever recover from an A. One week after dday, she called crying wanting to work things out. I had 2 simple conditions at that time; never speak to OM for life and be O&H. She agreed 100%. How na�ve I was. With her out of the house, I had no way of monitoring activity at all. Any control I would have had with her in the house was gone.

I was very devastated at the time and didn�t have the right council (MB folks) to guide me. It was a couple months later before I really took a hard look at MB. I was overcome with emotion and just wasn�t thinking straight. We saw a terrible MC who had no idea how to save a M. So, looking back that was a total distraction and waste of time.

Should have:

Kept her in the home

Snoop and snoop some more. Verify and validate.

Don't believe a word they say

Nuclear exposure (I did a mini-nuclear exposure but still effective)

Much higher personal and emotional boundaries

Insisted on complete transparency

Realize old W was dead. I kept seeing her as the woman I fell in love with.

Incorporated MB from day 1

Listen to the Vets on this site and done exactly what they advise

Engage the MB coaching center

Do not go to private MC

2. WHAT clues did you miss (or ignore) that your WS was not ready for recovery?

WS not committing to recovery is the biggest one.

W avoiding questions like the plague when asked if she was being O&H.

W was still depressed 2 months after dday.

Non-committal to EVERYTHING.

Only Semi-remorseful

AND ***Unwilling to put any work into recovery***

3. WHAT lessons did you learn that you'd like to pay forward to others, so that they might avoid a FR?

Be strong and focus on yourself.

Realize you can ONLY control YOU

Put �wishful thinking� out of your mind and focus on the facts

Set the bar high from the beginning in terms of expectations and don�t waiver

Do not be a doormat � Respect yourself

Position yourself in the best possible way for success; financially, emotionally, your family and friends etc..

bump

I wanted to add this onto here because there's lots of good information also.

False Recovery: Need voices of experience

1. I was a doormat. I believed what he said. I wish I posted on MB instead of reading basic concepts and thinking we could do it ourselves. I wish I had exposed his 1st affair. We ended contact but told loved ones it was because they did things we didn't approve of. I wish I didn't tell that lie. In the end I did tell the kids the truth after last affair. They were greatful to know the truth. The last 6 years as a family XWH was a toxin and the kids could feel something but didn't know what it was.

2. Biggest clue was he was always busy and had an excuse not to connect with me. We will talk but first I need to (fill in blank) I was on perpetual hold for years. He even said HE needed to forgive himself, huge clue. He made it about him. At first he seemed loving when I triggered but that quickly turned to defensiveness. When I would find out his FBF sent text & he didn't tell me he would say he didn't want to hurt me. Lie after lie to cover his secrets and to avoid accountablility.

3. POST! Listen to advice of other posters. Work on you and your self esteem. Affairs shatter the very core of who you are. WS should be there for you not tear you down. Listen to your gut, not WS babble. When you get that "somethings wrong" feeling it probably is.

[/size]Wish I had done differently:[size:14pt]

I would have done a more thorough exposure. VP of WH's HR was advised, but not with the name of the OW. New boss aware, but present boss not advised, as he is a particularly untrustworthy guy.
Effect of this; A continued underground. OW not fired or transferred. WH's transfer was dragged out from 2-3 months to 6 months.

I allowed WH to persuade me to he could do "business only" contact until his new job was set up. Okay, there is no such thing.... WH maintained non-personal contact for a total of 4 days....
Effect of this: FR, 6 months. Further entrenchment of A to the point where WH could not separate from the Dolly without help, after a total of 12 month A.

Wish I had verified more effectively. WH provided a daily account of his contact w/ the Dolly. Of course, it was only selective accounts. My verification was not strong enough.

Wish I had snooped more effectively to confirm status of A.

Wish I had been less eager to believe WH. Truth is, [/i] he was no longer my partner. My husband had been replaced by a wayward alien.[i]

[/size]Clues I missed[size:14pt]

No remorse from WH. He actually TOLD me he felt no remorse. Though this puzzled me, I did not see the red flag.

WH always defended the Dolly, even tho he knew he hurt me tremendously, EVEN WHEN SHE THREATENED MY LIFE (!). I was trying to be empathic to WH's pain.

Red flag: WH refused to join me on our wedding anniversary, even tho I told him how very important it was to me, and I offered many ways he could do it. Discovered later he had a dirty weekend with the Dolly instead.

Red flag: WH missed ALL important celebrations for the year (my birthday, Valentines Day, anniversary, granddaughter's birthday) except Christmas, but only skidded home at the last minute on Christmas eve. Of course, he preferred to spend time ANYWHERE else - even overseas - than with me. I now can't bear it if he sends me flowers (his default gift during A.)

Red Flag: WH completely avoided dealing with marital crisis of his own son. Never even called him, over 6 months. Let me deal with the whole thing, even tho I am "just" the step-mum. Of course, he could NOT provide counselling for marriage when he was so guilty himself. But really, this was throwing his son under the bus... (BTW, they are fine now, thanks to MB)

Red Flag: when WH finally learned about nuclear exposure concept (from website) he was furious. Said he and the Dolly would have run away together if I had tried it. If he was remorseful and wanting to work on recovery, he would have understood the benefits.

Red Flag: WH always dragged his feet on his assignments from SH. Could not stand to talk about A.

[/size]Lessons learned:[size:14pt]

EXPOSE. Wide, far and long. Be not afraid....

VERIFY.

SNOOP BEYOND REASON.

ASSUME THE AFFAIR IS ONGOING, and let the facts and your WS prove otherwise. This is not just me being bitter.... I think BS's want to work it out with their spouse so much that we are easily fooled. We even fool ourselves, conveniently.

AVOID FR AT ALL COSTS. It makes recovery, already a difficult road, much longer, narrower and more treacherous.

burnedout, I moved your post and the replies to your own thread here:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2672910#Post2672910

bump

BUMPING for the newbies.

Great info!
bump

This has been the most helpful information. I had FBs before finding MB. We are seperated and he currently lives with OW. He has gone back and forth between us each time.
Ehat would I have done different. I would have not cried and begged for his return this let him know thw door was still open. I would have snopped with a purpose. I did alot of dnooping for the wrong rrasons, not to get evidence but to find out what,was so great about her. I would have done a better more extensive exposure. I would have cared about me more this Im learning now.. I would have waited until,he was truely ready and remorseful insteaf of fearing this was my last chance
Now that Ive learned some Im plan,Bing my butt off and

Wanted to combine these two threads because they both have a plethora of information.
False Recovery

The following was posted on the "RECOVERY" forum .... Later the mods moved her discussion to the SAA forum.
This is an excellent example of WHAT NOT TO DO.
S= the BW
G= the WH
Both have access to the MB forum, but this was written by the BW.



This BW wants so desperately to believe the hogwash her WH is telling her that she has suspended her common sense..... This is exactly what a BW SHOULD NOT DO.

If it seems like the WH is making a CRAZY REQUEST .... that's because he IS still wayward and this is NOT "marriage recovery" after his affair.

Another HUGE MISTAKE was to bring the WH on board to her MB forum access while he was still foggy and wayward.

LINK to original thread

This is exactly what a BW SHOULD NOT DO.

Would I be out of line by suggesting the excellent post above would be improved by "de-genderizing" (neutering?) the "B" and "W" designations?

Only Warner Brothers saw fit to make all the Looney Tunes characters male!

What do I wish I'd done differently?

I wish that I would have realized the total evilness that was seeded in my life. Instead, I kept thinking that it was all a dream and couldn't be as bad as everyone was implying. I was wrong. It was worse than what everyone had been trying to tell me. There were layers and layers of lies. I doubt that there is a way to REALIZE the truth any faster, but if there were, I wish that I had done that.

What clues did I miss that H was not ready for recovery?

The biggest one was that he said beautiful words, flowery and romantic like I hadn't heard since we had dated over 30 years previously...and then when his actions didn't match up, he would play dumb and apologize (again with beautiful words).

Something else that he did was plan amazing dates. Lovely romantic dates. Totally catered to the things that I loved to do. He had never EVER done that in about 30 years, and I wish that I would have realized that the drastic change came too much too fast.

Another thing that I missed was that he had NO apparent withdrawal during the FR. It seemed odd that he could carry on for 12 years and then not miss it at all. But I'd read that not all WS go through withdrawal, so I eventually dropped it. WRONG (for me). When the real NC began, the ugliness that ensued was that out of a horror film. And I am not being dramatic. YOU WILL NEVER MISTAKE THE GUTTURAL PAIN OF GENUINE WITHDRAWAL.

What lessons did I learn that I would like to pay forward and hopefully save others from the pain of a FR?

1) If you want to save your M, YOU are going to have to buck up and accept that for right now�until the fog melts and for a good long while�you are going to have to go it alone for a bit (even if in the same house with your spouse). He/She is not your "partner" right now! That will be built back and earned slowly. Be kind, squash your love busters, and work together at things, but do not be in ANY hurry to "get back to the way that things were". Those days are long gone and it will be a new marriage anyway. Verify EVERYTHING constantly at first. Don't rely on words or emotions.

2) DO NOT show your spouse the MB forums until you have some (verified) true recovery under your belt. Otherwise, they can just use it to gather intel to see what you are doing to snoop and to predict your actions.

3) Don't miss a single opportunity to verify your snooping equipment. I almost missed the proof of FR because it took me so long to listen to the VAR every couple of days, and I would keep losing my place with it. Even when you're beat tired, DO IT. I would have (much) better budgeted my time and energy so that I paid close attention to the VAR each day.

4)Go to the ends of the earth if you have to in order to ensure NC. If you really want to save your M, there is no other way. ESPECIALLY with a long term A, the EPs have to be extra EXTRA extraordinary. When you *think* that you have enough protections in place, add more!

5)When people talked about how HARD the work of recovery was, I should have believed them and multiplied that in my head a hundred fold. It is a LOT more difficult than we ever imagined. And I can only guess that it's MUCH more difficult now than it would have been without the FR. So please do not skip ANY of Dr. H's steps for recovery, and especially do not "skimp" on exposure.

I read your story. My husband is self employed and has a truck business. As you are aware accountability of time is an issue; did he end up changing professions?