Marriage Builders
Posted By: ManInMotion MiM's Story... - 05/03/09 02:26 AM
It’s the 4th anniversary of my D-Day this weekend. At least I think it is. It actually was more of "D-Week", as we had the first "talk" on one weekend, during which time she mentioned her "friend", and then she confessed to the 2-year EA/PA on the following weekend. I spent the days in-between in emotional agony, knowing what the truth likely was, but afraid of it never the less.

I’ve never told my/our story here, so I guess I’ll take this opportunity to do so.

We met for the first time, many years ago, ’82 or ’83 I believe. I was working in an entry-level role in the mail room for a major company and was very much single and very much a virgin at the time. It’s not that I wasn’t interested in the opposite sex. Just that I really hadn’t come across anyone yet that really caught my fancy.

That day she joined our small department, she literally took my breath away.

We quickly became good friends, but I secretly wanted our relationship to go a bit further. She went out with my best friend (same company, different office) for awhile, but that didn’t last very long.

The first time I asked her if she wanted to have “more than a friendship”, she said no. Perhaps I should have listened back then, but back then I never took no for an answer.

A week later, we became a couple. Sparks ignited one night. We basically did everything together from that point, and thoroughly enjoyed each other’s company. The only thing we did NOT do was sex – she’d told me at one point that she wanted to wait until M, and I let her know that I respected her decision, though I also hoped that she would change her mind. I was also a virgin at the time.

Two years’ later, I left the job and enrolled in a university, to complete a three-year agree. She did the same, at a different university. We discussed our relationship, and both decided to continue it. After all, it was only three years…

Well, it took her about three weeks’ at university to give her virginity away to some creep; a guy who actually suggested that she could use him as a "substitute" for me. She came back from the first time all ready to have sex (having had sex only the night before with OM1 – something I discovered much later), and of course when I inquired why, the story came out about her going "all the way" with that character. Of course I was broken-hearted when she broke the news to me, but after a few days, and her pleading that she wanted our relationship to continue, I decided to continue the relationship. I basically told myself, well, we weren’t M’d, so it wasn’t really cheating, so I could get over it.

So we continued. A big problem though – now she wanted to have sex with me, but I simply couldn’t do it. Things just wouldn’t work properly. I guess something in me just turned off. I do remember thinking that she only wanted to have sex with me because she had it with that other guy and liked it. In any case, we could do everything but that. Still, we stayed together, and got even closer (or so I thought). We eventually ended up getting M’d several years later, and the first few years of M were thrilling, SF and all.

Things started going downhill after those three years. I will readily admit that I was not the best H. I grew up in a household where the H brought home the $$$ and looked after the "heavy stuff" and the W was a SAHM who took care of the kids, so I did not provide as much help on the home front as I should have. Her outbursts and other love-busting didn’t help matters much either. She always wanted things done "her way" and after awhile, I really wasn’t inclined to help out.

Things changed a bit about six years ago. The love-busting increased, but she also developed a bit of a "don’t care" attitude, and now our kids were being more and more subjected to her outbursts. I withdrew even further, basically just tried to stay out of her way. It wasn’t always possible though, and we would have frequent blow-ups. Still, for some reason, I always felt that we basically "had each other’s back", and we would not deliberately engage in any sort of activity that would be harmful to each other. As I look back at those days now, I can’t understand why I would have felt that way, when her behaviour so obviously suggested otherwise. And to make matters worse, my problems with erectile dysfunction returned and got worse.

In 2000, her wedding ring was stolen, and she refused to have it replaced. Something was obviously very wrong. I started paying a bit more attention to avoiding the "blow-ups": and slowly but surely things between us actually started to improve around mid 2003. I was trying hard to avoid "pushing her buttons", and we seemed to be getting along a bit better. And in late 2003, I started using "Vitamin V", which basically cured the erectile dysfunction problem. In December 2003, while visiting her parents, seeing that things seemed to be going so well, I again raised the issue of replacing her wedding ring, and this time she agreed. The new ring was blessed during a little ceremony involving all of us at her parents’ home.

We went on a family excursion to a major resort in 2004. We had a really good time there as well. Her parents came along with us, and acted as babysitters a few times so we could enjoy some nights out alone. Once or twice she used the Internet connection at the hotel to check in with her subordinate, a guy, at her office - I didn't think anything of it at the time.

The first real sign she gave that there might be someone else involved was in September 2004. She started to be quite secretive about a person she’d done something for, and when I eventually got the truth out of her, three months later, she told me that it was the same guy at the office, who now seemed to be a "good friend", and she didn’t want to tell me because she didn’t want me to get the wrong idea and think it was something more. Silly me – I believed her completely.

Unfortunately, our relationship started falling apart after that. The "don’t care" attitude returned, along with the angry outbursts and irritable and over-the-top behaviour, and on the 30th of April, about a week after another really big blowup, she quietly and calmly told me that she "no longer loved me like she used to", and it was basically up to me to decide what was to happen next.

I knew immediately at that point that she was likely in an A, and I had a good idea who the OM was as well. It was just a question of how far along the A had gotten. At first, she insisted that he was "just a good friend", and their "friendship" had nothing to do with the state of our relationship or her feelings towards me. It took one week for the truth to actually come out – that she had been involved in an affair since late 2003, and they first had sex in early 2004, just days after returning home with the new wedding ring on her finger. The affair started falling apart in early 2005, which likely explained her general mood at the time, and she admitted to me much later that she was hoping that I would give up on the M and let her go, the idea being that, once she was "free", she could try to restart the A.

I am not quite sure now why I said that I wanted to try to recover the M when she broke the news of her A. I do know that I was very scared of being left alone. I guess some part of me still loved her, but it’s taken me a long time to realise that the "her" that I loved might not be the actual "her", if you know what I mean. A lot of the little things that she used to do took on a whole different light after her A. For example, one of the things I loved about her was that she was always frank with me. Now it seems that what I interpreted as frankness on her part when she expressed her opinion could simply have been the result of indifference or a lack of empathy; she did not care what effect her words might have, so she didn’t think twice about what she said. She’s also a bit of a chameleon – some of the stuff that’s come to light about her after the A, well, I would have never expected her to indulge in that sort of behaviour.

Oh, and the A continued after D-Day, albeit for a short while. I caught her IM'ing him one night when she thought I wasn't around to see what she was doing. They had one last "closure meeting" and she stopped talking to him completely after that, except for business purposes. Or so she says. She left the job a few months later, and all contact ceased entirely (or so she says).

So here I am. It’s four years after D-Day. We’ve eliminated a lot of the LBs from our relationship, and some ENs are being met. She actually does a better job at them than I do. However, I’m quite aware that she’s not really "in love" with me, and our relationship is based more on tolerance than anything else. I feel like we’re in a "holding pattern", and there’s no real long-term planning involved in our relationship. Sometimes I find myself wishing that I could just wake up one morning and find out that this has all been one long horrible nightmare, but that’s likely not going to happen. There are signs from her that at times she’s sorry that she hurt me, but no real sign I can see that she really understands the evil she involved herself in, so I will not be surprised if it happens again. Because of that, I likely will never trust her again.

So… I’m going to hold on to what we’ve got, or what’s left of what we got until such time, or until something else comes along that makes it basically impossible for me to stay in this relationship and maintain my sanity and self-respect.

A big part of the problem is how well she fooled me, and the different "explanations" she has for our experiences. For example, that trip to the resort? She was actually more than just "checking in" with the subordinate, who turned out to be the OM. I thought we were really having a good time, really getting close. She explained "just because we were enjoying ourselves doesn't mean I was in love with you". Nice. Now every time we seem to be enjoying each other's company, that phrase rings in my head, and I remind myself that I cannot trust what I see, I cannot trust what I hear, and I cannot trust what I feel.

And that in a nutshell (ok, a big nutshell), is MiM’s Story.
Posted By: piojitos Re: MiM's Story... - 05/03/09 02:42 AM
Quote
So… I’m going to hold on to what we’ve got, or what’s left of what we got until such time, or until something else comes along that makes it basically impossible for me to stay in this relationship and maintain my sanity and self-respect.


I'm sorry you are in purgatory. Do you think your W is interested in a better marriage or does she have the same opinion as you do (quoted above)? I believe she is thinking the very same thing.

You cannot simply wait this out. You need a major step-change.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/03/09 02:50 AM
Originally Posted by piojitos
I'm sorry you are in purgatory. Do you think your W is interested in a better marriage or does she have the same opinion as you do (quoted above)? I believe she is thinking the very same thing.

I don't know what opinion she has at the moment. We haven't had any R talk in quite a while. It's very difficult to get an opinion from her unless she actually takes the initiative to express it.
Posted By: piojitos Re: MiM's Story... - 05/03/09 03:03 AM
So you either have detente or MAD but you can't be sure which. At some point the two of you need to come to an understanding of what each of you wants from the M. If you aren't happy, I can assure you she isn't happy either. Wouldn't it be better to try to find a way to change that rather than simply live with status quo? She hasn't left you/divorced you so there is some reason she is staying with the M so having a better M something that would benefit her as well.

You are stuck in a very deep rut.

In reading your post, I just wonder how objective you're being. You mention anniversary date - always a trigger. R is not going as you had hoped. Are things really as bad as you say or do they only seem that way through your looking glass? I ask this because I have this problem although I think my R is probably going better than yours. I'm also about at the 4 year mark and, at times, I do get depressed and ask myself what I'm doing. Then I take a step back and ask whether the problem is real or just my perception.

I will never have again what I once had. Even if I were to get divorced and eventually remarry, I still wouldn't have what was taken from me - the innocence - because I'll know that new wife is always capable of the same thing. So I try to make the best of the M that I have and I think you need to climb out of the rut and do the same.
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: MiM's Story... - 05/03/09 12:45 PM
It sounds like you both, literally, do not know what a healthy marriage is. You have never experienced it. From the first time she cheated, it damaged you sexually. Because of that, she feels that you can never forgive her, so she has settled for a less then mediocre marriage. Now neither of you know where to begin to find that healthy marriage. You both have to decide between two decisions. Stay together, and always be unfulfilled, or divorce and try to begin your lives over again. You both should have been in counseling from the day you found out she gave what was yours to some other guy. In that act alone, it should have told you that she had no boundaries when it came to what she wanted.
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: MiM's Story... - 05/03/09 03:37 PM
Hi MiM...

Well wow, *gulp*, thank you for taking the time to share your story...I sure do wish it was less melancholy and grim for you - ((((MiM))))...Mr. W and I share the same time table with you guys...We too are now 4 years post dday...But that is where our similarities end...We read your story together last night and we both wish you could know the genuine joy of a recovered marriage...

What have each of you done to recover, MiM? What MB books have you guys read? Lovebusters? His Needs/Her Needs? Fall in Love, Stay in Love? Surviving An Affair?

What about doing the new MB Online Seminar they are now offering? Check it out~~~>MB Online Seminar

What do you think?

Mrs. W
Posted By: piojitos Re: MiM's Story... - 05/03/09 06:00 PM
MiM.

I admit I haven't paid too much attention to all your posts over the years. I had no idea things are as bad for you as you seem to think they are. But you do have over 3,000 posts and you have been here for years and, from what I have read, your posts are quite insightful. I guess I just don't have the gut feeling that your situation is as bad as you feel it is right now. What I do sense is fear. What I'm not sure of is whether it is fear of failure or fear of success.

Something has to change. You can't go on like this.
Posted By: stillstanding2 Re: MiM's Story... - 05/03/09 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
It’s the 4th anniversary of my D-Day this weekend. At least I think it is. It actually was more of "D-Week", as we had the first "talk" on one weekend, during which time she mentioned her "friend", and then she confessed to the 2-year EA/PA on the following weekend. I spent the days in-between in emotional agony, knowing what the truth likely was, but afraid of it never the less.

I’ve never told my/our story here, so I guess I’ll take this opportunity to do so.

We met for the first time, many years ago, ’82 or ’83 I believe. I was working in an entry-level role in the mail room for a major company and was very much single and very much a virgin at the time. It’s not that I wasn’t interested in the opposite sex. Just that I really hadn’t come across anyone yet that really caught my fancy.

That day she joined our small department, she literally took my breath away.

We quickly became good friends, but I secretly wanted our relationship to go a bit further. She went out with my best friend (same company, different office) for awhile, but that didn’t last very long.

The first time I asked her if she wanted to have “more than a friendship”, she said no. Perhaps I should have listened back then, but back then I never took no for an answer.

A week later, we became a couple. Sparks ignited one night. We basically did everything together from that point, and thoroughly enjoyed each other’s company. The only thing we did NOT do was sex – she’d told me at one point that she wanted to wait until M, and I let her know that I respected her decision, though I also hoped that she would change a mine. I was also a virgin at the time.

Two years’ later, I left the job and enrolled in a university, to complete a three-year agree. She did the same, at a different university. We discussed our relationship, and both decided to continue it. After all, it was only three years…

Well, it took her about three weeks’ at university to give her virginity away to some creep; a guy who actually suggested that she could use him as a "substitute" for me. She came back from the first time all ready to have sex (having had sex only the night before with OM1 – something I discovered much later), and of course when I inquired why, the story came out about her going "all the way" with that character. Of course I was broken-hearted when she broke the news to me, but after a few days, and her pleading that she wanted our relationship to continue, I decided to continue the relationship. I basically told myself, well, we weren’t M’d, so it wasn’t really cheating, so I could get over it.

So we continued. A big problem though – now she wanted to have sex with me, but I simply couldn’t do it. Things just wouldn’t work properly. I guess something in me just turned off. I do remember thinking that she only wanted to have sex with me because she had it with that other guy and liked it. In any case, we could do everything but that. Still, we stayed together, and got even closer (or so I thought). We eventually ended up getting M’d several years later, and the first few years of M were thrilling, SF and all.

Things started going downhill after those three years. I will readily admit that I was not the best H. I grew up in a household where the H brought home the $$$ and looked after the "heavy stuff" and the W was a SAHM who took care of the kids, so I did not provide as much help on the home front as I should have. Her outbursts and other love-busting didn’t help matters much either. She always wanted things done "her way", after awhile, I really wasn’t inclined to help out.

Things changed a bit about six years ago. The love-busting increased, but she also developed a bit of a "don’t care" attitude, and now our kids were being more and more subjected to her outbursts. I withdrew even further, basically just tried to stay out of her way. It wasn’t always possible though, and we would have frequent blow-ups. Still, for some reason, I always felt that we basically “had each other’s back”, and we would not deliberately engage in any sort of activity that would be harmful to each other. As I look back at those days now, I can’t understand why I would have felt that way, when her behaviour so obviously suggested otherwise. And to make matters worse, my problems with sex returned.

In 2000, her wedding ring was stolen, and she refused to have it replaced. Something was obviously very wrong. I started paying a bit more attention to avoiding the "blow-ups": and slowly but surely things between us actually started to improve around mid 2003. I was trying hard to avoid "pushing her buttons", and we seemed to be getting along a bit better. And in late 2003, I started using "Vitamin V", which basically cured the erectile dysfunction problem. In December 2003, while visiting her parents, seeing that things seemed to be going so well, I again raised the issue of replacing her wedding ring, and this time she agreed. The new ring was blessed during a little ceremony involving all of us at her parents’ home.

The first sign she gave that there might be someone else involved was in September 2004. She started to be quite secretive about a person she’d done something for, and when I eventually got the truth out of her, three months later, she told me that it was a guy at the office who was a "good friend", and she didn’t want to tell me because she didn’t want me to get the wrong idea. Silly me – I believed her completely.

Unfortunately, our relationship started falling apart after that. The "don’t care" attitude returned, along with the angry outbursts and irritable and over the top behaviour, and on the 30th of April, about a week after another really big blowup, she quietly and calmly told me that she "no longer loved me like she used to", and it was basically up to me to decide what was to happen next.

I knew immediately at that point that she was likely in an A, and I had a good idea who the OM was as well. At first, she insisted that he was "just a good friend", and their "friendship" had nothing to do with the state of our relationship or her feelings towards me. It took one week for the truth to actually come out – that she had been involved in an affair since late 2003, and they first had sex in early 2004, just days after returning home with the new wedding ring on her hand. The affair started falling apart in early 2005, which explained her general mood at the time, and she admitted to me much later that she was hoping that I would give up on the M and let her go, the idea being that, once she was "free", she could try to restart the A.

I am not quite sure now why I said that I wanted to try to recover the M when she broke the news of her A. I do know that I was very scared of being left alone. I guess some part of me still loved her, but it’s taken me a long time to realise that the "her" that I loved might not be the actual "her", if you know what I mean. A lot of the little things that she used to do took on a whole different light after her A. For example, one of the things I loved about her was that she was always frank with me. Now it seems that what I interpreted as frankness on her part when she expressed her opinion could simply have been indifference or a lack of empathy at work; she did not care what effect her words might have, so she didn’t think twice about what she said. She’s also a bit of a chameleon – some of the stuff that’s come to light about her after the A, well, I would have never expected her to indulge in that sort of behaviour.

Oh, and the A continued after D-Day, albeit for a short while. I caught her IM'ing him one night when she thought I wasn't around to see what she was doing. They had one last "closure meeting" and she stopped talking to him completely after that, except for business purposes. Or so she says. She left the job a few months later, and all contact ceased entirely (or so she says).

So here I am. It’s four years after D-Day. We’ve eliminated a lot of the LBs from our relationship, and some ENs are being met. She actually does a better job at them than I do. However, I’m quite aware that she’s not really "in love" with me, and our relationship is based more on tolerance than anything else. I feel like we’re in a "holding pattern", and there’s no real long-term planning involved in our relationship. Sometimes I find myself wishing that I could just wake up one morning and find out that this has all been one long horrible nightmare, but that’s likely not going to happen. There are signs from her that at times she’s sorry that she hurt me, but no real sign I can see that she really understands the evil she involved herself in, so I will not be surprised if it happens again. Because of that, I likely will never trust her again.

So… I’m going to hold on to what we’ve got, or what’s left of what we got until such time, or until something else comes along that makes it basically impossible for me to stay in this relationship and maintain my sanity and self-respect.

And that in a nutshell (ok, a big nutshell), is MiM’s Story.
You gave me some good advice when I first came here and I am grateful. I am sorry to hear that you are still struggling with trust four years later and feel that you wife is not in love with you. You mentioned that some LBs have been eliminated. Which ones remain? What are you doing to eliminate them? You know that they shoot holes in you wife's Lovebank. How can you plug those holes? What EN's are not being met? Are you tired and feeling low right now or do you always feel this way? You said that things have improved. That is encouraging. I hear that it takes a long time and a lot of work by both parties. Time alone won't fix the problem. You help a lot of people here. Maybe it is time for you to get some help. Best wishes.
Posted By: lake53 Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 12:56 AM
Hi MiM
I think I have pretty much kept track of your story and the two of you were posting together a year or so ago weren't you?

So are you thinking that she will commit adultery again?

Are you looking for a way out of the marriage?

You sound like you are almost ready to give up on it.

She cheated early on and then also later on. First cheat was cheating you out of a lot and the second one was a long term cheat that was emotional and physical. It's a lot to recover from.
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 01:56 AM
Unfortunately, MiM has described exactly what happens when only one partner is interested in recovery. Settle for crumbs and this is what you get.

I'm very sorry for you MiM but what do you intend to DO?
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 02:41 AM
Originally Posted by piojitos
In reading your post, I just wonder how objective you're being. You mention anniversary date - always a trigger. R is not going as you had hoped. Are things really as bad as you say or do they only seem that way through your looking glass? I ask this because I have this problem although I think my R is probably going better than yours. I'm also about at the 4 year mark and, at times, I do get depressed and ask myself what I'm doing. Then I take a step back and ask whether the problem is real or just my perception.

I will never have again what I once had. Even if I were to get divorced and eventually remarry, I still wouldn't have what was taken from me - the innocence - because I'll know that new wife is always capable of the same thing. So I try to make the best of the M that I have and I think you need to climb out of the rut and do the same.

Thanks for this, P. It IS quite possible I supposed that my perception might be a bit biased. Reading over what I've posted, it looks like my M is utter misery, but it really isn't. It's actually quite good most of the time. It's just not the "10" I'd like it to be, and it scares me a bit that I can't seem to envision a future with things are they are at the moment.

The trust thing is a big issue for me, P. I could, and did, put up with almost everything but dishonesty. I've dropped good friends for a lot less than what she's put me through. And it's not just about her cheating. What scares me too is the re-writing of our history that seems to have occurred. For example, she absolutely believes that we weren't really a couple before she left for university (even though we dated each other exclusively for the years before), and that my ED problem showed up before she travelled, and that she told me "no sex before M" because she felt that was something she was supposed to say; she didn't expect me to follow it. And finally, she says she only had sex with OM1 twice, even though she previously told me on that very first DD that it was more than five times. Of course, when she then told me the last time we discussed it that she engaged with sex with OM1 just to find out if she could do it, the reason for the re-writing of our history became pretty clear - it was all to "justify" her choices. I'm afraid that the very same thing will happen for all of her other "bad" choices. And this re-writing continues for other aspects of our relationship as well. Sometimes it feels a bit like living in a Twilight Zone when she absolutely denies something that I know she said, or accuses me of saying or doing something that I know I didn't, and when I refer to my journal to confirm what actually happened, she says the journal only reflects my perception, nothing more.

I also have difficulty telling when she's lying, or twisting the truth to her benefit. And it didn't help that she didn't consider omission of the truth as lying. Maybe that part of her has changed, but I can't help but have the uneasy feeling many times that I have not heard the whole story from her.

Posted By: piojitos Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 03:04 AM
A perfect 10 marriage? I might settle for a 9.7 given the 3.2 degree of difficulty. The word "afraid" really stands out in that post. Not to belittle what you say W does but we all rewrite history to an extent. I think we do it as self-preservation although I admit a few people can take it to the extreme.

One thing I will suggest to you is to try to take a look at this objectively and start learning to choose your battles. What are the deal-breakers and what are trivial annoyances? What do you really need to fight for and what can you let go?

I got to a difficult point in my post A life and gemela and I had a discussion and I told her I no longer cared if she had yet another A because it was not something I could prevent. If she wanted to have an A, she was perfectly capable. A point already proven. I told her that, if she did, sooner or later I would discover it and we would get a divorce immediately.

I couldn't live my life in fear of what might happen because living in fear is not a life worth living. Once I came to this conclusion, I felt a huge weight lifted off me. When gemela is not where I think she is or disappears (doesn't happen very often), it never occurs to me she is with another man. I guess my point is that gemela never proved to me that I could trust her. I just learned to not always assume the worst. I am learning to be happy because I know my future happiness doesn't depend on gemela. I enjoy her being around and I can allow myself to be happy because I don't have fear. I also know that, if we ever do D, I'll have a great life afterward.

No M is perfect (okay except maybe the Wonderings). You need to think about trying to make the best of what you have. What you will find is that if you change the way you look at the M, it will actually get much better. We are such frail creatures. It's amazing we have survived this long.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 03:04 AM
Originally Posted by MrsWondering
What have each of you done to recover, MiM? What MB books have you guys read? Lovebusters? His Needs/Her Needs? Fall in Love, Stay in Love? Surviving An Affair?

What about doing the new MB Online Seminar they are now offering? Check it out~~~>MB Online Seminar

What do you think?

Mrs. W

We've read several of the Harley books, and a few others, like "Not Just Friends", and Love Is Never Enough", "How Can I Forgive You", and a few others. Right now I've found that it's best to NOT engage in any R talk unless I have to, because it just seems to make things more depressing. I'm trying to practice MB stuff in "stealth mode", and I think she's doing the same. There certainly has been a change in her attitude. Unfortunately, my top ENs ('cept for the O&H one) are quite easy for her to meet. Hers apparently are not. Still, I am trying.

The online seminar sounds interesting. I'll find a way to mention it to her...

Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 03:23 AM
Originally Posted by stillstanding2
gave me some good advice when I first came here and I am grateful. I am sorry to hear that you are still struggling with trust four years later and feel that you wife is not in love with you. You mentioned that some LBs have been eliminated. Which ones remain?

The more difficult ones smile. Seriously, there are a few bad habits that sometimes show up every now and then, but I think I've managed to get rid of most of them. I tend to feel at times though that she's raising the bar on me, while the bar for the OM was lowered considerably.


Originally Posted by stillstanding2
Are you tired and feeling low right now or do you always feel this way?

I don't usually feel as bad as I did when I made that post, and I certainly don't feel bad as I did on DD. I think I might just be having difficulty with the "acceptance" part of forgiveness, and these types of anniversaries just tend to aggravate the situation.
Posted By: piojitos Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 03:28 AM
Quote
I tend to feel at times though that she's raising the bar on me


Raise it yourself. Be the best that YOU can be. Forget about what W wants. So you're better than OM. Isn't that a good thing?
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by lake53
So are you thinking that she will commit adultery again?

I think if the right opportunity came along, it may happen again. She tells me know that knows how to "protect her boundaries" and avoid those types of situations that could lead to As, but I think I'm looking for a bit more than that to really trust what she's saying.


Originally Posted by lake53
Are you looking for a way out of the marriage?

Sometimes, yes, when I'm feeling really low. Generally, no. It seems that once I'm away from her, and I start thinking about what I've been through, it seems the only solution is to walk away. But, as soon as I return home, and I'm in her company, those feelings tend to dissipate.
Posted By: piojitos Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 03:35 AM
You have to learn to stop ruining your present for fear of what might happen in the future. This is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Learn to be happy with what you now have at this moment regardless of what could happen later on. And if you are happy, I assure you W will be happy and that thing you are afraid of cannot possibly happen.
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 03:40 AM
Originally Posted by Pio
No M is perfect (okay except maybe the Wonderings).

HA! LOL! Pio, you GOOB! stickout

Mrs. W grin
Posted By: piojitos Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 03:41 AM
I get the sense that you are not willing to invest yourself completely. You've been burned and don't want to get burned again. Who does? You and W are in a Mexican standoff. I used to be that way - and I was in one with a real Mexican so I was seriously disadvantaged.

Put your gun down.

Think about it. What is the very worst thing that can happen to you? You might get a divorce. That's it. There is no "unknown" here. You aren't happy because you are choosing not to be happy. W has nothing to do with it.

Take the risk. Throw yourself completely into this. You have a lot less to lose than you think you do.

Oh and I don't like being called "P". I don't think we know each other that well to be on a first letter basis.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by piojitos
I get the sense that you are not willing to invest yourself completely. You've been burned and don't want to get burned again.

Not quite. I was willing to invest myself completely at one point, but my FWW's hesitation to do the same has led me to question my approach, and now I'm no longer completely invested.


Originally Posted by piojitos
Think about it. What is the very worst thing that can happen to you? You might get a divorce. That's it.

Nope, that's not the very worst thing. It's more likely going to be a just part of a list of very bad things that can happen if my life takes that turn.


Originally Posted by piojitos
Oh and I don't like being called "P". I don't think we know each other that well to be on a first letter basis.

LOL - ok, it's a bit unusual to see someone their anonymous nick so seriously on a web forum devoted to much more serious topics, but I'll respect your request. Will Pio do, or should I use the full Piojitos? smile

Posted By: piojitos Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 11:40 AM
Pio is fine.

Quote
Nope, that's not the very worst thing. It's more likely going to be a just part of a list of very bad things that can happen if my life takes that turn.


You're right. You could eat Raccoon feces and go blind.

Quote
Health department spokeswoman Sally Slavinski says parents should supervise children to keep them from eating raccoon feces. Droppings should be picked up using gloves and disposable bags and put in the trash.


Thank God for Sally's quick advice. I have always let my kids just go ahead and eat it.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 11:44 AM
Originally Posted by piojitos
Quote
Nope, that's not the very worst thing. It's more likely going to be a just part of a list of very bad things that can happen if my life takes that turn.


You're right. You could eat Raccoon feces and go blind.

LOL - I was thinking of being forced to have to go live with my parents because I couldn't afford a separate home after the D smile.

Posted By: Vittoria Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
Originally Posted by lake53
So are you thinking that she will commit adultery again?

I think if the right opportunity came along, it may happen again. She tells me know that knows how to "protect her boundaries" and avoid those types of situations that could lead to As, but I think I'm looking for a bit more than that to really trust what she's saying.
It's pretty hard to fall in love when this is gnawing at your heels.

MiM,

I only really know of you from following the 'JFO' forum.
Reading your post I could feel how sad and lonely you are. I'm sorry for that.
I agree with the MB online program, as Mrs. W suggested. It puts the whole plan into much more perspective. It made my H and I more enthused about the principles and the fact that a great M can unfold even after adultery.

It sounds too that your W needs more EP's to make you feel safe.


Posted By: wannamoveforward Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 01:25 PM
Quote
I think if the right opportunity came along, it may happen again. She tells me know that knows how to "protect her boundaries" and avoid those types of situations that could lead to As, but I think I'm looking for a bit more than that to really trust what she's saying.

Do you know what is the bit more you are looking for ?
What is preventing you from demanding it ?
What is preventing her from giving it ?
Posted By: stillstanding2 Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
The more difficult ones smile. Seriously, there are a few bad habits that sometimes show up every now and then, but I think I've managed to get rid of most of them. I tend to feel at times though that she's raising the bar on me, while the bar for the OM was lowered considerably.
Maybe that is a good sign. Raising the bar could indicate that she wants a better marriage and is no longer interested in settling as she did when she was with OM. I think that it is better to raise the bar and ask for what you want than to go elsewhere to get your needs met.

Originally Posted by ManInMotion
I don't usually feel as bad as I did when I made that post, and I certainly don't feel bad as I did on DD. I think I might just be having difficulty with the "acceptance" part of forgiveness, and these types of anniversaries just tend to aggravate the situation.
I usually feel the best on Sundays after we have spent the weekend together. Are you doing better today?
Posted By: stillstanding2 Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
I think if the right wrong opportunity came along, it may happen again. She tells me know that knows how to "protect her boundaries" and avoid those types of situations that could lead to As, but I think I'm looking for a bit more than that to really trust what she's saying.
What would it take to feel safe again?

Originally Posted by lake53
Are you looking for a way out of the marriage?

Originally Posted by ManInMotion
Sometimes, yes, when I'm feeling really low. Generally, no. It seems that once I'm away from her, and I start thinking about what I've been through, it seems the only solution is to walk away. But, as soon as I return home, and I'm in her company, those feelings tend to dissipate.
For those of us that have our spouses home trying to recover the marriage, don't we all feel like that? Did anyone here ever think that they would stay after an affair? I know that I didn't. We had always told each other that if either of us ever cheated, just go ahead and leave because the marriage would be over. Our minds know that adultery is the ultimate betrayal. It is hard to imagine being able to get over it. Some do. Some don't. I am still in love with my husband. I think you are in love with your wife. I want to be one of the ones that gets over it. I also want to make sure this never happens again. Who wouldn't be scared after experiencing this kind of pain? If you had been brutally attacked walking down a dark alley, would it be unreasonable that you would be apprehensive walking down dark alleys in the future? Wouldn't you feel better with some extra protection? Would you even walk the dark alley without protection ever again? Why is this different?
Posted By: Gamma Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 04:57 PM
MiM,

What is telling about your posts is that you have about 10 times as many as your wife, I'm not sure what the ratio means.

You also wrote.
she says she only had sex with OM1 twice, even though she previously told me on that very first DD that it was more than five times. Of course, when she then told me the last time we

Could have been three times the first meeting and two time the second time. As her memory fades it is only the larger details she remembers. Some of the more painful thing my wife did to me she has no recollection of at all.

NJ
Posted By: HURTandSHOCKED Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 05:13 PM
Did you guys do the Marital Recovery Agreement in the back of SAA? Maybe you could revisit it...
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by wannamoveforward
Do you know what is the bit more you are looking for ?

Some sign from her that our history is NOT going to be adamantly rewritten again to "excuse" her choice to have an A. I don't want to be faced with another "Twilight Zone" episode years down the road of recovery, where she adamantly denies that certain things didn't happen (which did) and vigorously states that certain things did happen (which didn't). She's already started doing that, by negating what I write in my journal as being my perception only, and not necessarily what's actually happening now. Yeah, like her telling me that they boinked in our bedroom for the first time can be construed as "my perception only".

I need something, anything that shows that she is more concerned about restoring our M than she is about the details of the A being made public - because that's exactly what is preventing her from actively seeking the professional help that I think she needs to find out why she made those horrible choices with apparently very little guilt involved, and how she can protect me from making those choices again.


Originally Posted by wannamoveforward
What is preventing you from demanding it ?

If I have to actually demand that my FWW do these things, four years after DD, then to me that's a good sign that perhaps our M was not meant to be.



Originally Posted by wannamoveforward
What is preventing her from giving it?

I would say Privacy and Pride would be the biggest contributing factors.

Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by stillstanding2
Raising the bar could indicate that she wants a better marriage and is no longer interested in settling as she did when she was with OM.

Could be. Or it could be that she simply wants more.


Originally Posted by stillstanding2
I think that it is better to raise the bar and ask for what you want than to go elsewhere to get your needs met.

Well, she was "raising the bar" on me while involved with the OM as well.


Originally Posted by stillstanding2
I usually feel the best on Sundays after we have spent the weekend together. Are you doing better today?

Interestingly enough, this Sunday was one of our better Sundays. Usually she feels worse about me on Sundays, typically because she feels I'm not contributing enough around the home.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by stillstanding2
What would it take to feel safe again?

A big red RESET button smile.

Seriously, I'm not sure at this point. I do know that if I see a definite willingness on her part to do whatever it takes to recover our M, then that might work. However, I'm not seeing that. I do get quite a bit of lip-service at times, particularly when I make suggestions, but no follow through. I no longer make suggestions.


Originally Posted by lake53
Are you looking for a way out of the marriage?

At times, I have examined my options, yes. I'm not driven to D though. What I have now is better then D.

Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by newjersey
MiM,

What is telling about your posts is that you have about 10 times as many as your wife, I'm not sure what the ratio means.

Trying to reason with my FWW "Tangled" is sometimes a bit like trying to dance with a bramble-bush, with about as successful an outcome as expected in that circumstance. She says one thing and means something else, and her answers can come across as evasive many times. Some of the regulars started asking some more difficult questions, and a few started to get on her case. So she gathered up her marbles and left.

She now frowns upon me spending time here in her own way (e.g. if she sees me on, she'll remind me of something she asked me to do, but I haven't done yet - but I'll receive no such reminders from her if I'm doing something else on the computer).
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by HURTandSHOCKED
Did you guys do the Marital Recovery Agreement in the back of SAA? Maybe you could revisit it...

I think we did it (was some time ago and my memory's failing me), but I'll revisit.
Posted By: wannamoveforward Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 06:12 PM
Quote
I need something, anything that shows that she is more concerned about restoring our M than she is about the details of the A being made public - because that's exactly what is preventing her from actively seeking the professional help that I think she needs to find out why she made those horrible choices with apparently very little guilt involved, and how she can protect me from making those choices again.

It seems to me that 4 years ie time alone cannot fix problems and help you reach a R. Time perhaps minimises the intensity of the initial pain but there does nothing to help the M.
All the MB steps need to be done and no matter how far you are out from D day.
If exposure is whats needed in order to get the ball moving then IMHO you are hindering your own progress by enabling her to continue to ignore the traits and behaviour and not seek any help in changing them.
Quote
If I have to actually demand that my FWW do these things, four years after DD, then to me that's a good sign that perhaps our M was not meant to be.

IMHO its sign that your FWW is perhaps not clear on how big a roadblock this is to your recovery and may be is under the impression that things are going better than they are.
Quote
I would say Privacy and Pride would be the biggest contributing factors.

Sorry if I sound harsh but those are her issues and not yours. Its pretty clear from your posts that inspite of the good that you have acheived in this R there is some basic fundamental healing still remaining.
From a female perspectie I see you playing the male role of trying to "HELP FIX and DEFEND" the one you love which is admirable and yet it comes at the cost of fixing your R.
One of the things that I take away from my own stich is its better to speak up about what hurts and let my H know so then he has the option of doing something about it. And from personal experince I can tell you that so many times he is not even aware of how a big that issue has been to me and was not even on his radar. Of course it helps even more that he is willing to respond and work out and acceptable solution smile
If in your mind been there, done that and nothing is forthcoming then I am sorry you find yorself at this point and I feel your pain.
Posted By: turtlehead Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 07:31 PM
Quote
If I have to actually demand that my FWW do these things, four years after DD, then to me that's a good sign that perhaps our M was not meant to be.

Well, first of all, you'd be making a request, not a demand. Demands are LBs wink

Secondly, it is your responsibility to spell out exactly what you need. It's unfair to expect your wife to read your mind or pick up on hints or patterns in tea leaves. If you've told her before, tell her again.

The thing is, if you're as unhappy as you seem, then chances are very high she's unhappy as well. Why waste more years of your life in an unhappy marriage? You both can do better. Someone has to start the ball rolling and it may as well be you.

You're afraid of her being in another affair. I think you're BOTH at risk, allowing things to totter along in the current state.

I think I read that you're staying with her until the kids graduate. What are you teaching them about what is acceptable in a marriage? Do you think you're really sparing them any grief by waiting? I had a girlfriend whose parents D'd her freshman year at college. She was a total wreck. She was coping with college, and being away from home, and on her own... and her parents splitting up. Lots of folks stay together "until the kids are grown" but having seen her go through that I think honesty during the high school years might have been better.
Posted By: stillstanding2 Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
Could be. Or it could be that she simply wants more.
Okay, if she wants more, what does she want? Can you give it to her if meeting that need will help her fall back in love with you?


Originally Posted by ManInMotion
Well, she was "raising the bar" on me while involved with the OM as well.
Well that just sucks!



Originally Posted by ManInMotion
Interestingly enough, this Sunday was one of our better Sundays. Usually she feels worse about me on Sundays, typically because she feels I'm not contributing enough around the home.
Glad you had a good day. Sounds like you know what she needs around the house.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 08:01 PM
It sounds like your wife is troubled and the problems are not just her affair.

She seems unstable
She seems manipulative
She seems closed emotionally
She seems untrustworthy in words and actions
She seems controlling
She seems cold
She seems, frankly, scary
She seems to have a cold hard personality
She seems irrational at times
She seems to dislike you
She seems quite selfish
She seems almost abusive in ways.

I would divorce her for these reasons. You are right in thinking you cannot trust this selfish and cold woman. Look at her character and actions and words. Would you tell your son to ever marry a woman like her? I doubt it.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/04/09 11:36 PM
Originally Posted by turtlehead
Well, first of all, you'd be making a request, not a demand. Demands are LBs wink

Well, selfish ones are wink

In any case, I generally try to stay away from making demands, lest they be interpeted as selfish demands. And when I do make demands, it's usually to do with a personal boundary of mine.


Originally Posted by turtlehead
Secondly, it is your responsibility to spell out exactly what you need. It's unfair to expect your wife to read your mind or pick up on hints or patterns in tea leaves. If you've told her before, tell her again.

Oh, I agree. It's just that sometimes I'm not *exactly* sure of what I need to see. If I'm to put a finger on it, I think what I'm looking for is initiative on her part, something that definitively demonstrates her interest in holding on to our M with both hands and doing whatever's necessary to make it work.


Originally Posted by turtlehead
The thing is, if you're as unhappy as you seem, then chances are very high she's unhappy as well. Why waste more years of your life in an unhappy marriage? You both can do better. Someone has to start the ball rolling and it may as well be you.

LOL, Turtlehead, I've been rolling this ball for the past four years smile. Really, I'm not UNHAPPY. We've good days as well as bad days. It's just that when I've got some time to reflect on what's happened and what's happening, it all seems a bit overwhelming.


Originally Posted by turtlehead
You're afraid of her being in another affair. I think you're BOTH at risk, allowing things to totter along in the current state.

I'm not afraid. I know exactly what to do if I ever discover another A. Immediate nuclear exposure and filing for D on the basis of adultery, and basically going for everything I can get. Yes, we can still do that here.


Originally Posted by turtlehead
I think I read that you're staying with her until the kids graduate.

That's not quite true. The kids graduating is sort of a milestone, at which time I intend to seriously reflect on our M and decide whether or not its worthwhile continuing. At the moment, apart from the children, we don't seem to have that much in common, so if we're not that happy while the children are around, we're probably going to be even less so when they're gone. In the interim however, I'm not going to stop trying to make things better between us.

Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/05/09 12:08 AM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
She seems unstable
Only when she loses her temper. Otherwise she's the picture of practicality.

Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
She seems manipulative
She might be, but certainly not on the scale of some of the WWs that have passed through or been mentioned here.

Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
She seems closed emotionally
Closed to me, yes.

Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
She seems untrustworthy in words and actions
This is one I've got trouble with. She only slipped up once, ONCE, during her 2-year long A, otherwise she comes across as very dependable and trustworthy... until you delve a bit deeper and find out the reasons behind some of her actions. When I think that she managed to invite the OM up for sex only a few days after we did that ring ceremony, then act as if nothing had happened when I returned home a few hours later, I realise that I'm dealing with someone who can easily hide the truth from me if she really wanted to, and I can't help but feel very concerned about that.


Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
She seems controlling
A bit smile.

Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
She seems cold
She seems, frankly, scary
She seems to have a cold hard personality
She seems irrational at times
None of those really describe my FWW. Well, except for the irrational part. But doesn't that describe most women? (GD&R!)

Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
She seems to dislike you
She seems quite selfish
She seems almost abusive in ways.
It does seem like she dislikes me at times. At this point in our recovery, I wouldn't describe her as selfish. Just a bit more self-centered than she used to be prior to the A. But she still finds time for the kids (mostly) and me.

Posted By: gg615 Re: MiM's Story... - 05/05/09 12:42 AM
MiM,
Reading your thread I do you feel your WW is manipulative (and has been all along). I agree with PIO about the fear thing. One thing I committed to as the BS was not to hold back - to put my all into the M and R. If you are in a state of fear of the future based on the past then you are really not in the present. Should your WW do something stupid again, how do you want to walk away? Do you want to walk away knowing that you held back in the M and R?

GG


GG
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/05/09 01:12 PM
Originally Posted by gg615
MiM,
Reading your thread I do you feel your WW is manipulative (and has been all along). I agree with PIO about the fear thing. One thing I committed to as the BS was not to hold back - to put my all into the M and R. If you are in a state of fear of the future based on the past then you are really not in the present. Should your WW do something stupid again, how do you want to walk away? Do you want to walk away knowing that you held back in the M and R?

GG


GG

GG, one of the things that I left out of my story (perhaps I'll go back and edit it), is that I was going through one of the most insecure periods of my life at the time her A started. The company I am employed with was centralizing and downsizing, and my job was at risk. There were literally no other prospects for similar employment in this area, so losing my job would have lead to a huge upheaval in our lives. I was feeling very vulnerable really needed someone's shoulder to lean on at the time, and I turned to her. She struck me as a bit unconcerned at that time, and I thought it might have been because she thought the situation was not as bad as I feared.

It turned out of course that she was as unconcerned as she was about what was happening in my life because her mind was on someone else. Why be concerned about your H's possible job loss and it's effect on the family's lifestyle when you could be thinking of what to say in your next friendship card to the OM, right?

I am never, never, NEVER going to leave or make myself vulnerable to her again, or rely on her support when I'm going through personal trying times. That's one casualty of her A that's simply not going to be revived. So, I'm going to put as much as I can into this M, but up to that limit.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: MiM's Story... - 05/05/09 01:29 PM
Quote
I am never, never, NEVER going to leave or make myself vulnerable to her again, or rely on her support when I'm going through personal trying times.


This made my heart hurt when I read it. What a horrible loss for you. Your spouse SHOULD be the one that you rely on for support when going through personal trying times. If not her, who?

So sorry your marriage is like this. I wish for you that it wasn't, that your wife would get a clue.
Posted By: stillstanding2 Re: MiM's Story... - 05/05/09 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
I am never, never, NEVER going to leave or make myself vulnerable to her again, or rely on her support when I'm going through personal trying times. That's one casualty of her A that's simply not going to be revived. So, I'm going to put as much as I can into this M, but up to that limit.
Never say never. I hope that saying holds true for you eventually. None of us know what we will do in the future until we are there. I hope that as you and your wife continue to recover your marriage, someday, when you need her, she will be there for you.
Posted By: wannamoveforward Re: MiM's Story... - 05/05/09 01:39 PM
Quote
I am never, never, NEVER going to leave or make myself vulnerable to her again, or rely on her support when I'm going through personal trying times. That's one casualty of her A that's simply not going to be revived. So, I'm going to put as much as I can into this M, but up to that limit.


Why are you willing to deny yourself the good parts of being in a relationship ?
Is it beacuse you reconcile yourself to the fact that you wont get support from her and its not a deal breaker for you?
Or is it beacuse your think you dont get it from her so you wont get it from anybody ?



Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/05/09 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Your spouse SHOULD be the one that you rely on for support when going through personal trying times. If not her, who?

I agree with you, and for quite a while I thought of my FWW that way, that she was the first and best person I could turn to in such times. She was the most reliable person that I knew.

Now that I know that all may not be as it seems with her, I know better. When I think that, while I was expressing my concerns, she might have been thinking of when next I'd be leaving so she could invite the OM over, my mind just goes black.

I think that she was just too good at hiding what was really going on inside of her from me, which leads me to feel the way I do now. Hiding the fact that she boinked the OM for the first time just two hours or so before I came home to her would require the masking and deception skills of a veteran pro card-shark. And now I'm not sure whether or not she's still doing it (hiding what's going on inside - I'm reasonably certain the boinking has stopped!).

Finally, I think she believes that she's doing what she can to earn my trust back, but a more correct description would be that she's doing what she prefers to do to earn my trust back. The really tough stuff, like talking to a counselor, just ain't happening.

Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/05/09 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by wannamoveforward
Why are you willing to deny yourself the good parts of being in a relationship ? Is it beacuse you reconcile yourself to the fact that you wont get support from her and its not a deal breaker for you? Or is it beacuse your think you dont get it from her so you wont get it from anybody ?

At the moment, it's not a deal-breaker for me.

I don't know if I'll get it from anybody else. My instincts for distinguishing between trustworthy and untrustworthy people seem to be flawed anyway.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: MiM's Story... - 05/05/09 05:20 PM
Quote
The really tough stuff, like talking to a counselor, just ain't happening.


So she refuses? Most people that refuse counseling do so with good reason. They either don't want to be exposed or they don't want to have to deal. Have you flat out told her this is something that you need from her?
Posted By: black_raven Re: MiM's Story... - 05/05/09 05:22 PM
Not much to add MiM. Sorry you aren't feeling you are getting what you need to heal.

{{{MiM}}}
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/05/09 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Quote
The really tough stuff, like talking to a counselor, just ain't happening.


So she refuses? Most people that refuse counseling do so with good reason. They either don't want to be exposed or they don't want to have to deal. Have you flat out told her this is something that you need from her?

I've mentioned it a few times in the past. I've received excuses, sorry, "reasons", why she didn't think it was a good idea. I stopped mentioned it. It's not a deal-breaker for me at the moment in any case. If she prefers that I feel this way about trusting her rather than going out of her "comfort zone" to address it, then so be it.


Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/08/09 04:29 PM

Well, we had a talk last night.

I'd mentioned something to her via IM the day before. She indicated that she preferred to leave talking about that subject until after work, and I agreed. I waited for her to bring it back up after work. From past experience in these situations, I expected that she wouldn't, and she didn't.

Yesterday morning, I expressed my disappointment that she didn't bring the subject up the day before. She mentioned that she thought about it once or twice, but it "slipped her mind", and she forgot to bring it up. She found time to talk about other things though, so I couldn't help but think once again that talking about relationship stuff, or engaging me in conversation about something that was on MY mind was really not high on her priority list.

Yesterday afternoon, she told me that she was ready to talk with me as soon as I wanted to. I could tell from her tone and her mannerisms though that it likely wasn't going to be open and inviting kind of conversation I was hoping for, particularly as she spent the rest of the afternoon apparently trying to avoid being around me. Later that night, I eventually told her that I'd prefer to put it off until another time, as her mood suggested to me that perhaps now was not the right time. She got even more upset, and left the bedroom for awhile.

She came back about half/hour later, and we had our talk, though it was not about the subject I wanted to talk about.

Some highlights:

1. She told me that it seems that every time she wants to say or do something, she has to think first whether or not what she wants to would meet my approval. She spoke of this as if it was a huge burden for her that she rather not have. She told me that she had to leave the room for awhile because she felt "smothered", and she wanted to be able to do something that SHE wanted to do, without needing my "approval".

2. She told me that she wanted to be happy and be with someone that made her happy. She said she wanted me to make her happy, but I couldn't do so if I kept bringing up "past stuff" and kept on being so moody and "living in the past".

3. She believes that these forums are the main source of my moodiness and unhappiness, that I get caught up in the emotions and then take it out on her.

I replied:

1. I didn't realise that thinking about me was such a burden to her. She enters my thoughts in the same way as she described, but I never really considered it a "burden"... more like what I expected to happen if spouses wanted to avoid doing something that would lead to their partner's unhappiness.

2. I acknowledged that I was not meeting some of her ENs. I also suggested that perhaps I wasn't clear on what those major ENs really were, and would like some direction. She replied that she wasn't sure herself, just that she was “unhappy”.

3. I indicated that the forums were not the main source of my unhappiness. My source of unhappiness was basically trying to have a relationship with someone who didn't seem to be that interested in restoring that deep trust that we had at one point in our relationship.

She expressed a bit of surprise at that one. I gave her an example of someone borrowing a huge some of money from her, telling her that he lost it all, then coming back to borrow some more. Would she simply lend him money again, or would she be looking for some sign from him that he understood the loss, understood the effects, and was prepared to take extraordinary steps to gain back her trust so she'd be willing to lend to him again? And wouldn't she be put off if his approach was to say that the "past was in the past" and she should just trust him now? I said that it would likely take more than giving me a call to tell me where she was every now and then to restore trust that was damaged by basically two years of deliberately deceptive and scheming actions on her part, geared towards fooling me and keeping me in the dark about her A.

She replied that she was deceptive, but not scheming, but that I was "blind" to what was going on, that I really wasn't paying attention, so I didn't notice anything. In response, I clearly outlined several times where she engaged and admitted to the type of actions I was talking about. I also indicated that it wasn't a case of me being "blind" towards what was going on, but me, trusting her completely, really not expecting her to engage in that type of behaviour at all, particularly considering our experiences the first time around. In summary, it was more a case of being “blindsided”, rather than “blind”.

She asked what else she could do. I mentioned that perhaps her talking to someone about her choices might do the job, because it would suggest to me that she wanted to address the situation rather than run away from it and pretend it never happened. She mentioned that perhaps I only wanted her to do that to "shame" her. I replied that perhaps I was looking for a sign that our recovery meant more to her any sense of shame she might get by talking to someone about her choices.

One more thing, during that "trust" talk, she brought up the issue of one of my top ENs, SF, and asked me how I could be "enjoying" SF when I didn't really trust her? I reminded her that apparently she was capable of doing so as she had SF with an OM who she knew was cheating on his fiancee and apparently had another OW on the side. She replied that it didn't matter, she trusted him at the time. I decided not to pursue that conversation much further. Apparently WSs have an entirely different concept of trustworthiness than everyone else.

She didn't contact me this morning via IM like she usually does to say hi. Maybe it slipped her mind. Maybe she only did it because she thought I wanted it, and now she no longer thinks it necessary as apparently it’s not restoring the deep trust I’m looking for. Maybe it’s for some other reason. I’m not going to worry about it. Most of our conversations via IM these days are very short, sometimes limited to just that initial greeting and a response. She’s really busy at work, no time for anything else. She told me this afternoon however, that I wasn’t “logged in” when she logged on, so she didn’t contact me.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: MiM's Story... - 05/08/09 04:37 PM
She replied that she was deceptive, but not scheming, but that I was "blind" to what was going on, that I really wasn't paying attention, so I didn't notice anything.

Wow MIM,

How do you argue with someone like this? It's enough to make you want to beat your head into a wall.

You were so helpful to me when I was going thru my whole ordeal, but I feel a bit helpless to try to reciprocate.

I'll think about this.

Just wanted you to know I was thinking about your situation.

SWW
Posted By: MyRevelation Re: MiM's Story... - 05/08/09 04:49 PM
MIM,

I have avoided asking this question for some time, and maybe should continue avoiding it, because I have no reason or desire put you on the spot, but you seem like such a "contridiction" to me.

You were here, and considered a "vet" when I got here nearly two years ago.

You are OBVIOUSLY very intelligent.

During your time here, you have surely witnessed BH actions and tactics that were successful, along with those that were unsuccessful.

You are OBVIOUSLY unhappy with your current situation.

SOOOO ... given your knowledge, and level of unhappiness ... why do you choose to remain in limbo, rather take some action to improve or remove yourself from this situation?
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: MiM's Story... - 05/08/09 04:50 PM
Quote
I reminded her that apparently she was capable of doing so as she had SF with an OM who she knew was cheating on his fiancee and apparently had another OW on the side. She replied that it didn't matter, she trusted him at the time.


Huh? :crosseyedcrazy: She KNEW he was cheating on his fiance AND had another OW on the side, but she trusted him at the time?

She can still say that today? That's just NUTZ... and extremely foggy wayward thinking.

So where did you leave it with the counseling? She won't do it because she'd be too ashamed?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: MiM's Story... - 05/08/09 05:27 PM
MIN how can you put up with this inhuman woman for even one more day!!!! It sounds like she has all the power in your relationship and can do or say whatever she wants to! And you will have to live with it!

That is .....NO KIND OF MARRIAGE..... to me.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/08/09 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by MyRevelation
You are OBVIOUSLY unhappy with your current situation.

SOOOO ... given your knowledge, and level of unhappiness ... why do you choose to remain in limbo, rather take some action to improve or remove yourself from this situation?

I'm unhappy, but not to the point of leaving our M. My FWW is apparently unhappy as well, for different reasons of course. I won't say exactly that I'm in "limbo", but more that my focus has shifted somewhat. I'm becoming a custodian of my own happiness, rather than relying on my FWW to meet my ENs. And I will still try to meet those (apparently unknown) ENs of my FWW. I still believe, unhappy as we are, that it's better for me to stay in the M than exit it.

BTW - my FWW made it clear, in her own oblique way of course, that she was not open to speaking to anyone about her choices. Apparently the fact that she might have to do just that if our M ends, and more publicly so, doesn't seem to hold any weight with her. She told me that it appears that she'll just have to stay unhappy instead, as apparently she couldn't do what I suggested, so therefore I would never trust her again. I chose not to pursue that conversation - I did not want to say anything that would fuel that attitude. I've let her know (again) what I think I need to see from her; it's really her choice if she wants to do it or not.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/08/09 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Quote
I reminded her that apparently she was capable of doing so as she had SF with an OM who she knew was cheating on his fiancee and apparently had another OW on the side. She replied that it didn't matter, she trusted him at the time.


Huh? :crosseyedcrazy: She KNEW he was cheating on his fiance AND had another OW on the side, but she trusted him at the time?

She can still say that today? That's just NUTZ... and extremely foggy wayward thinking.

I don't believe she feels the same way today. And yes, it was extremely foggy wayward thinking.


Originally Posted by princessmeggy
So where did you leave it with the counseling? She won't do it because she'd be too ashamed?

The ball's in her court. At least for the moment. And yes, I believe she won't do it because she doesn't want to feel ashamed.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/08/09 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
MIN how can you put up with this inhuman woman for even one more day!!!! It sounds like she has all the power in your relationship and can do or say whatever she wants to! And you will have to live with it!

That is .....NO KIND OF MARRIAGE..... to me.

It's a funny situation because, if you get her perspective on what's going on, she'd likely say that she always thinks of me, to detriment of her happiness, that it seems that I'm never satisfied with her, that she feels smothered by my "rules", etc., etc...

Of course I don't feel the same way, but I'm not going to argue with her perspective and tell her she's wrong.
Posted By: MyRevelation Re: MiM's Story... - 05/08/09 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
I won't say exactly that I'm in "limbo", ...

I probably should have just left my keyboard closed, but I guess you wouldn't post about it, if you didn't want some feedback.

I must say, I just don't understand your position. I think you offer very good advice to BH's ... I just wonder how that sets with you, since you seem reluctant to follow the advice you offer others.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: MiM's Story... - 05/08/09 06:04 PM
I agree.

MIM, I always (and I don't say that lightly) respect your advice. You usually offer such wisdom but I'm honestly baffled by your situation now. I just don't get it.

What do you fear?
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/08/09 07:02 PM
Originally Posted by MyRevelation
I must say, I just don't understand your position. I think you offer very good advice to BH's ... I just wonder how that sets with you, since you seem reluctant to follow the advice you offer others.

In what way is it appearing that I'm reluctant to follow my own advice?

Yes, I'm in an unhappy situation now, but separation and D would IMO lead to even MORE unhappiness, so it's not an option that I want to pursue at the moment. I prefer to continue working on my M right now. If things get worse, I may review my decision and act accordingly.
Posted By: MyRevelation Re: MiM's Story... - 05/08/09 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
In what way is it appearing that I'm reluctant to follow my own advice?

Because, from my perspective, which comes from your own words ... you are doing NOTHING to try to make your situation better OR to remove yourself from it. I see you "standing still", or ... in LIMBO.

However, its your life, and you have the knowledge necessary to change your situation, should you so choose. I normally tell reluctant BH's ... "You Make the Call" ... and it appears you have ... and that "call" is to remain in LIMBO.

I don't have to agree with it ... YOU have to live with it. I just see a contradiction between what you advise, which normally involves taking some type of action ... compared to what you do.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/08/09 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by MyRevelation
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
In what way is it appearing that I'm reluctant to follow my own advice?

Because, from my perspective, which comes from your own words ... you are doing NOTHING to try to make your situation better OR to remove yourself from it.

Removing myself from the situation is not an option I'm considering at this point. As for doing nothing, I disagree. I AM doing what I can. My actions are just not as successful as I'd prefer them to be.
Posted By: piojitos Re: MiM's Story... - 05/09/09 12:11 AM
Quote
1. She told me that it seems that every time she wants to say or do something, she has to think first whether or not what she wants to would meet my approval. She spoke of this as if it was a huge burden for her that she rather not have. She told me that she had to leave the room for awhile because she felt "smothered", and she wanted to be able to do something that SHE wanted to do, without needing my "approval".

2. She told me that she wanted to be happy and be with someone that made her happy. She said she wanted me to make her happy, but I couldn't do so if I kept bringing up "past stuff" and kept on being so moody and "living in the past".

3. She believes that these forums are the main source of my moodiness and unhappiness, that I get caught up in the emotions and then take it out on her.


Finally you have some intel and you trivialize it. Think about what she is trying to tell you because I think, from her POV, she was trying to be honest. Before I comment on the first two, I'll focus on #3. She might be right. These forums are your outlet. In a sense they help you but they also hurt you because they do keep the pain and emotion fresh. Like constantly picking the scab off the wound - it never heals. Her statement makes you feel threatened because she would take away from you the only thing that makes you feel safe. You want help - you need a shoulder to lean on and, since FWW can't be that person, this forum is your surrogate.

Let me just speak from my own experience. This forum can be addictive. I was "in limbo" in my own sitch. I couldn't "trust" gemela to be my friend to rely on. Things weren't bad but not that good either. My M was better than D. I did feel that posting here sometimes brought up old feelings and made me depressed. I would stop posing for a couple of weeks and then started feeling very much better. I came back and posted and, within a day or two, I got in some pretty bad discussions with gemela and even told her a time or two I wanted a D. Then I stopped posting and things got better. Then I posted again and they got worse. I actually experimented with this and there was a significant correlation between posting and depression/LBing/lack of communication in the M. I also discovered that certain threads or maybe kinds of threads were particularly bothersome for me. The worst were the "JFO" sitchs because they could so easily stir those raw emotions I had felt so long ago just after Dday. Phantom pains.

One day I made the decision to try to get as far away from the A as possible but I couldn't get away from MB. I took the decision to have myself banned so I emailed Justuss and she accepted. Now you can still see MB if you aren't logged in and I did keep "viewing" for a couple of weeks but, since I couldn't post, I eventually lost interest. Since my "lifeline" had been cut, I was forced to help myself and, eventually, learn to let gemela help me. I do believe taking a vacation from MB was a significant contribution to me current state of affairs. It possibly has saved my M.

Now that Justuss has graciously allowed me to be here again, I still try to avoid certain types of threads. I can't invest the kind of personal emotion into threads as I used to because I find myself reliving my sitch through others.

So my suggestion to you is experiment. Take mini-breaks from MB and measure your mood. Then come back and do the same and see if there is a correlation to your happiness. I'm not saying you can't post on MB and not recover your M. Obviously I'm posting now - but on a limited basis. From your wife's POV, your posting on MB is a LB. You are showing her that you trust people here more than her. Even if she doesn't read your posts, the posting is a constant reminder to her that you are still dwelling on the A.

In a nutshell, I think your FWW was trying to open up to you. As far as #3 goes, with a little experimentation, you can find out. I went through withdrawal when I left MB. Can you have an A with a forum?

If you don't take a break from MB, at the very least, pick your threads carefully. Avoid the ones that bring up strong emotions.
Posted By: piojitos Re: MiM's Story... - 05/09/09 12:42 AM
I was thinking about it and remembered that you cannot see the forums even if you are not logged in if you are banned. The MB server remembers the IP addresses of every computer that each member has ever logged in from. If you are banned, you would have to use a previously unused computer to be able to see the forums so the MB wouldn't recognize the IP address.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/09/09 05:02 AM
Originally Posted by piojitos
From your wife's POV, your posting on MB is a LB. You are showing her that you trust people here more than her. Even if she doesn't read your posts, the posting is a constant reminder to her that you are still dwelling on the A.

Pio, perhaps you are right. I don't know about the "dwelling on the A" part (honestly, I think last night was the first time I've brought it up in weeks, if not months, with her), but I guess what really matters her is her *perception* of what I'm doing.

I think I might take a break from MB for awhile, just to see if it makes a difference.

Thanks for your P.O.V., and your suggestion.

Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: MiM's Story... - 05/09/09 06:02 AM
She is a shrew who cares so little for you. Did she have any remorse at all for what she did? If she had no remorse than who cares what she thinks. It is lucky for her you are even still with her. But she is not grateful.
Posted By: TJD Re: MiM's Story... - 05/11/09 12:20 PM
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
I'm unhappy,

I have always thought that the greatest gift a couple will give each other is a commitment together to a recovery process.

On the other hand, I believe the greatest gift you bring to any relationship is your personal recovery.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 12/26/09 03:30 AM
About time for a quick update...

We're spending some of our Xmas vacation time with MIL and FIL. We've done it a few times since D-Day, and it's always been a bit "triggerish" for me because one of my better memories of our stays here (her new ring) also reminds me of when her PA started (just a few days after the blessing of the ring).

It's actually been going well so far. The break has improved her mood quite a bit, and she's more affectionate and caring, treating me even better than usual. There have been a few trigger moments though (she gave me a massage one night, which reminded me of the massage she gave the OM while he was staying overnight at our home, at her invitation...), but generally we've been having a great time.

For my Xmas "gift", she purchased a sexy Santa Elf costume, some white fishnet stockings and surprised me in bed with it smile. She obviously put a lot of thought into it. I knew something was up, as I kept catching her giving a little smile every now and then, but I was still caught by surprise - the last time she did something like this was over 20 years ago...

And to think, just three weeks ago I was thinking of asking her to go on vacation alone, to give us some time apart, to give me some time to myself.

I'm still struggling with the feeling that, given our pre-M history as I've written it out here, our M should never have happened, and I know it's affecting my approach to our M. I feel that I should have walked away at the first sign of infidelity from her, but I didn't, and as a consequence this led to me being hurt very badly by her 2-year A that she carried on in our home under my nose. I'm really concerned that I'm making a HUGE mistake by sticking around, no matter how I feel about her. Maybe there are other As she hasn't told me about. Maybe she'll be more inclined to get involved in another A, now that she's done it and has "experience" in not only how "exciting" it could be, but how to get away with it. Maybe she's just decided to "settle" for me because of our kids and social standing. These are a sample of the thoughts that go through my mind on an almost daily basis, and it makes it difficult to "really" enjoy anything she actually does for me; I find myself always wondering if there's an ulterior motive.

We're due to spend three days in a posh hotel shortly.. just the two of us. It's supposed to be a "second honeymoon" of sorts. I expect that there will be a lot of talking, perhaps a good dose of O&H, and hopefully I can discuss some of my feelings with her, without it turning into the "dancing with a bramble-bush" experience that characterizes many of our relationship talks.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: MiM's Story... - 12/26/09 03:55 AM
Wow. good day today, bad days ahead when she decides to mess around on you again. I am sorry you cannot leave her. She is terrible. A shrew in white fishnets. Sad.
Posted By: ToBeContinued Re: MiM's Story... - 12/26/09 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
It's actually been going well so far.

MiM, glad to hear things are going well. Obviously, doing things she hasn't done in twenty years clearly demonstrates some serious effort on her part.

Originally Posted by ManInMotion
We're due to spend three days in a posh hotel shortly.. just the two of us. It's supposed to be a "second honeymoon" of sorts. I expect that there will be a lot of talking, perhaps a good dose of O&H, and hopefully I can discuss some of my feelings with her, without it turning into the "dancing with a bramble-bush" experience that characterizes many of our relationship talks.

I hope you both really enjoy the second honeymoon. Let us know. Sounds like a great opportunity to continue the rebuilding process....

TB
Posted By: Zelmo Re: MiM's Story... - 12/27/09 06:10 AM
I'm no expert. But, it does not sound like your wife adheres to MB principles at all. Nor does it sound like she has a great deal of remorse or much of an understanding of the pain she inflicted.
This would seem consistent with someone that has cheated multiple times, as you wife has done.
It's pretty clear to me that she is not terribly invested in fixing the marriage or helping you deal with this trauma. She wants it to go away on its own.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 02/08/10 05:01 AM
Another update...

Things are fairly stable at the moment. Though we do have our ups and downs, they're not the "rollercoaster-type" ups and downs we experienced just after D-Day. It's been weeks, if not months, that any sort of A-related conversation has happened between us (though thoughts of her A are still on my mind every now and then - that's likely not going to go away in a hurry).

To "get away from it all", I've taken to hiking every few weeks with a couple of friends and acquaintances (stomping around in the bush and streams for a couple of hours is a great way to get the mind off of "worldly matters"). The beer at the end helps too smile. My FWW tried it once or twice, but now doesn't come along, saying that it's "too strenuous" (yet she's able to spend three times as long checking every store in the shopping mall - go figure).

This time, who should I see near the end of the hike but the OM! Evidently he's either joined the hiking group (it's large, so it's quite possible that I didn't see him), or he just happened to be in the same area at the time that our group finished our hike. I ignored him, but I also found myself feeling very angry, not at him, but at my FWW, for putting me in the situation where I had to even care about situations like this. A lot of the old feelings I had about her and her choice to have an A with that character got stirred up again.

I left as soon as I could, but I was still a bit moody and upset when I got home. Interestingly enough my FWW didn't pick up on this (or perhaps she did, and chose to ignore it). I'm tempted to just let this particular sleeping dog lie and hope that the OM doesn't turn up at the next hike, but that doesn't seem to be very "open and honest". I think somehow I have to find a way to mention this situation and my feelings to her, without triggering the defences and accusations ("Oh I'm never going to forgive her, never going to let her hear the end of it", etc., etc.). Not sure what to do yet.
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: MiM's Story... - 02/08/10 05:08 AM
Quote
I think somehow I have to find a way to mention this situation and my feelings to her, without triggering the defences and accusations

I don't think you should say a word. It's not your WW's fault OM showed up there!
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: MiM's Story... - 02/08/10 05:39 AM

Hiya MiM:

Please leave it alone. Drop it. Don't mention the OM or your reaction. That is my suggestion. I agree with BigK.

Looking for empathy or sympathy from your wife is a lost cause from my take on everything you have ever said over the years. I think you actually want her to do something so you can trust her again. And there is nothing she can do since the lack of trust is in you.

How about raising your kids, enjoying your daily routine, going to work and paying the bills: Take her temperature every so often to make sure she hasn't strayed from the ranch, and thus get on with your life. do keep posting here, I know it helps you, just as it has helped me.

All the best MiM.

Larry

Posted By: Vittoria Re: MiM's Story... - 02/08/10 07:01 AM
MiM, I'm sorry that you had to have a trigger like that.
I've never met my H's FOW, I can't even imagine how hard it would be being in her presence.


hug

Posted By: barbiecat Re: MiM's Story... - 02/08/10 01:02 PM
Ditto Vittoria, Larry and bk
Posted By: TheRoad Re: MiM's Story... - 02/08/10 03:38 PM
I don't see the problem with telling a WW that the BH ran into the OM post affair.

I would find a new organization to run with to avoid OM.

More important and a reason to tell WW of contact is to ask did the OM run before/during the affair.

If OM never did then is this a sign that OM is using running to break NC with the WW?

If he did run prior to now was it with this organization?

Then why didn't WW protect the BH by giving this knowledge to protect the BH from triggering?
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 02/09/10 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by TheRoad
I would find a new organization to run with to avoid OM.

There's no other local hiking organization. This is the only one.


Originally Posted by TheRoad
More important and a reason to tell WW of contact is to ask did the OM run before/during the affair.

If OM never did then is this a sign that OM is using running to break NC with the WW?

If he did run prior to now was it with this organization?

Then why didn't WW protect the BH by giving this knowledge to protect the BH from triggering?

OM was not the type. I was actually very surprised when I saw him, as I thought hiking would be the last thing he'd take up. It's possible that the reason I only saw him at the end was that perhaps he was there just to pick up someone else.

Any, I have an update to write...
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 02/09/10 12:33 PM
Well, I thought about it, thought about it, and thought about it some more. I finally decided that it was important to be open and honest about what I experienced.

So, I told her last night that I had "something to tell her". I also told her that what was on my mind was troubling me so much that I'd gone to the MB forums for advice, and I indicated the advice that I'd gotten, and I'd decided to go against it in this instance. I then told her about my experience, what I felt and why I felt the way I did.

It actually went down fairly well, after we got through her "those forums are inhabited by bitter BSs" comments, which I chose not to engage her on (I knew where THAT road led, so I was not interested in traveling on it). She didn't draw close or anything like that, but she did say she was sorry, and she asked if there was anything she could do. She also asked me what I usually do with the anger, if I just keep it inside. I replied that I normally vent it out, either into my journal or on the forums.

After we talked for awhile, she mentioned that when I said that I had "something to tell her", she actually thought that I was going to tell her that I strayed. I guess in the face of that, what I actually had to say might have come as a bit of a relief, LOL. I insisted that there wasn't even the remotest possibility of me doing anything like that, but she insisted that wasn't the case. I let the matter lie after awhile.

Progress? I don't know. Perhaps. We didn't end our conversation last night on a low note, but this morning there wasn't any indication from her that we'd spoken at all.

It was otherwise a really great weekend, so that's what I'm going to remember about it. If the OM shows up again, well, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: MiM's Story... - 02/10/10 12:22 PM

MiM:

Quote
After we talked for awhile, she mentioned that when I said that I had "something to tell her", she actually thought that I was going to tell her that I strayed. I guess in the face of that, what I actually had to say might have come as a bit of a relief, LOL. I insisted that there wasn't even the remotest possibility of me doing anything like that, but she insisted that wasn't the case. I let the matter lie after awhile.

Nice window into her mind and mental processes. Sounds like she is very uncomfortable in the current situation where you own the moral high ground. Just a thought.

Larry
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 02/10/10 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by _Larry_
Nice window into her mind and mental processes. Sounds like she is very uncomfortable in the current situation where you own the moral high ground. Just a thought.

During the conversation, she also expressed concern about some women that I had mentioned to her in previous conversations. How my interactions with those women could easily lead to something else if I wasn't careful. I told her, and quite honestly too, that getting involved with any of those women anywhere past the "acquaintance" stage was simply not going to happen, as I really had no interest AT ALL in doing something like that. It wasn't about any expressed morality on my part. I simply wasn't interested, period. Still she acted unconvinced.

I think this is less about "moral high ground" and more about her being concerned that I will simply be more inclined to run off and indulge in an affair because of what she did to us and our M. It doesn't help that I feel at times (and expressed once or twice) that our M might have been a big error of judgment on my part; that I should have instead continued to walk away when she first cheated on me.

To be honest, I'm not sure what I'd do if a woman does come along and "blows my mind" like my FWW did when I first met her. Would I jump at the opportunity to start something fresh and new, without all the baggage that my FWW brought to our M? Or would I do the "right" thing by staying faithful to my M and my FWW?

Luckily the chances of me meeting "Miss Right #2" and having to experience such a situation are about the same as me winning the lottery three or more times in a row. I actually don't think about it unless someone brings the subject up. My FWW however is apparently a lot more worried than I am about that situation ever happening.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: MiM's Story... - 02/10/10 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
To be honest, I'm not sure what I'd do if a woman does come along and "blows my mind" like my FWW did when I first met her. Would I jump at the opportunity to start something fresh and new, without all the baggage that my FWW brought to our M? Or would I do the "right" thing by staying faithful to my M and my FWW?

Luckily the chances of me meeting "Miss Right #2" and having to experience such a situation are about the same as me winning the lottery three or more times in a row. I actually don't think about it unless someone brings the subject up. My FWW however is apparently a lot more worried than I am about that situation ever happening.
Mim, I'm a bit surprised that you write like this after having been here for so long. Your wife is right to be worried about your falling for someone else, and not just because your commitment is low as a result of her affairs.

You must have read many times now that people often have affairs with unlikely OPs; people who are not terribly good looking, or who are older, overweight, less educated etc. People do not seem to confine affairs to someone who is their ideal partner. People on the brink of affairs often form an emotional connection, through conversation, with people with whom they have some connection, like a job. The emotional connection leads to some ENs being met, and enough deposits are made for feelings of love to ensue.

I don't know what kind of conversations you have with your female acquaintances, but you need to keep them very limited and public (i.e. no emails or coffee breaks). The fact that you are not interested in them now does not preclude finding a common interest, and from there an emotional connection, that leads to affair. This is all the more likely to happen since, it seems to me, your wife has not put a great deal of effort into nurturing you back into the marriage. If I read your situation correctly, your wife does not jump through hoops to compensate you for her affair and make your marriage a place that you do not want to leave. You are very vulnerable, so you need to make your boundaries cast-iron.

I admire your honesty for admitting you do not know what you would do if someone came along and blew your mind. However, do you not see that, in order to make such a statement, you must have be leaving the door open for someone to come along and do that. You must have rather shaky boundaries now; today. From what you have written, the only thing stopping your mind from being blown by someone else is that you haven't noticed the someone else yet.

I sympathise, Mim. I'm only writing this in the hope that you do NOT want to go down the affair road, with all the dishonour involved in that. It is not that you do not deserve a relationship with someone who blows your mind and who feels the same about you; it is that an affair is not the way to achieve that, and you do not want to become just like every unfaithful abuser out there.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 02/10/10 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Mim, I'm a bit surprised that you write like this after having been here for so long. Your wife is right to be worried about your falling for someone else, and not just because your commitment is low as a result of her affairs.

I'm not sure that's actually a bad thing, to be honest. Prior to her A, I wasn't concerned about my FWW doing something like that. She just didn't strike me as someone who would be so foolish as to risk job and family by engaging in an A with a young man reporting into her. Perhaps I may have been less complacent about meeting her ENs if I actually was concerned. Maybe if she's concerned about me going off somewhere to have my ENs met, she'll be less complacent about trying to meet them. I doubt that she's that concerned though, as this type of issue hardly ever comes up in our conversations.


Originally Posted by SugarCane
You must have read many times now that people often have affairs with unlikely OPs; people who are not terribly good looking, or who are older, overweight, less educated etc. People do not seem to confine affairs to someone who is their ideal partner. People on the brink of affairs often form an emotional connection, through conversation, with people with whom they have some connection, like a job. The emotional connection leads to some ENs being met, and enough deposits are made for feelings of love to ensue.

I understand what you're saying, SugarCane. I'm also quite aware of what my ENs are. They're very specific, and not that easy to meet smile. I'm also not the most approachable person. I'm pretty certain that the above scenario will never apply to me.


Originally Posted by SugarCane
I don't know what kind of conversations you have with your female acquaintances, but you need to keep them very limited and public (i.e. no emails or coffee breaks).

That's exactly how they remain. I'm not interested in pursuing them any further.


Originally Posted by SugarCane
This is all the more likely to happen since, it seems to me, your wife has not put a great deal of effort into nurturing you back into the marriage. If I read your situation correctly, your wife does not jump through hoops to compensate you for her affair and make your marriage a place that you do not want to leave. You are very vulnerable, so you need to make your boundaries cast-iron.

I wouldn't say that she hasn't made a great deal of effort. It's more like she's made a great deal of effort doing what she believes she needs to do, whether or not I'm in agreement. And when she's tried any suggestions from others, including myself, it's usually led to more resentment on her part than anything else, particularly if the suggestion did not have immediate positive results. At the moment we hardly engage in any sort of R talk. I let her do what she wants to do, and if I don't like it, I say so.


Originally Posted by SugarCane
I admire your honesty for admitting you do not know what you would do if someone came along and blew your mind. However, do you not see that, in order to make such a statement, you must have be leaving the door open for someone to come along and do that. You must have rather shaky boundaries now; today. From what you have written, the only thing stopping your mind from being blown by someone else is that you haven't noticed the someone else yet.

Not quite. I don't think I have "shaky boundaries". Certainly not anywhere near as shaky as some I've seen. I just know that I feel differently about my FWW than I did prior to her A, and I think that for the major part is what makes me wonder what I might do if "Miss Right #2" comes along.


Originally Posted by SugarCane
I sympathise, Mim. I'm only writing this in the hope that you do NOT want to go down the affair road, with all the dishonour involved in that. It is not that you do not deserve a relationship with someone who blows your mind and who feels the same about you; it is that an affair is not the way to achieve that, and you do not want to become just like every unfaithful abuser out there.

FWIW, in my society, guys are hardly looked at with dishonour if they get involved in an A. Just the opposite happens sometimes, in fact. In any case, what others might end up thinking of me is not one of the reasons that I'd not get involved in an A. What I might end up thinking about myself - that's what will likely stop me.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: MiM's Story... - 02/10/10 07:04 PM
MIM,

You know, I think you are missing an opportunity here. I agree with SC that you might be more vulnerable than you realize. However, I think you might be missing something that could lead to a better marriage with your W.

Let me conjecture a moment and then offer ideas based on that conjecture.

I am guessing your W is not very secure right now. She knows she blew by her own boundaries pretty badly. She knows that she has hurt you and her marriage pretty badly. I am guessing she thinks you view her as "damaged" goods. I am also guessing she, as do many WS or FWS, "projects" their own weaknesses on those closest to them. I am also guessing that does not have a lot of confidence in her attractiveness to you (emotionally or physically). She probably also interprets your normal and natural reticence to be as deeply/blindly in love with her as you not finding her as attractive.

Now, if this is how she sees things. Guess what she is going to see if you talk with other women? She is going to see a "competitor" or her "replacement". It is going to focus her anxieties about herself and make her more insecure.

Now you might say "fine, she deserves this and she should have anxieties", and you would be right to a point. However, if you want a good marriage you don't want to be married to a woman that is fighting with her own anxieties due to her failures in the past.

You also said she is sort of hit and miss about meeting your needs suggesting that while there may be emotional intimacy in your marriage it is not deep.

IF, and you can find this out by asking her, my speculations have any merit, then you need to sit down with her and hear how she sees herself and the world. YOu need to discuss how you see yourself and the world and how yousee her. YOu need to discuss what would help you see her in a light SHE WANTS YOU TO SEE HER. You might discuss ways that you could reduce her anxiety about herself and your marriage.

In my years of reading here, I have seen many times it is often the FWS that really lives in fear. It is the FWS that has huge anxiety issues and cannot forgive themselves. It is often the FWS that actually suffers as the FBS did when all of this mess started.

Some would say..."PERFECT", nothing could be more deserved. But, the fact is if YOU want a good marriage, this "revenge" will prevent it.

I'm thinking you are seeing her insecurities and you need to address them.

I'll leave you with this one last point which is what SC brought up...Don't get cocky! smile You know what I mean, you are vulnerable. But, I would guess you are even more vulnerable to your W if she sees what you need and provides it.

Somethings to think about.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 02/10/10 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
I am guessing your W is not very secure right now. She knows she blew by her own boundaries pretty badly. She knows that she has hurt you and her marriage pretty badly. I am guessing she thinks you view her as "damaged" goods.

You may be right on the "damaged goods" part. On the "secure" part, I'm not so sure. She already has expressed to me that she will have no trouble moving on if our M ends, and I think she meant it. That doesn't sound like the comments of someone who's insecure.


Originally Posted by Just Learning
I am also guessing she, as do many WS or FWS, "projects" their own weaknesses on those closest to them. I am also guessing that does not have a lot of confidence in her attractiveness to you (emotionally or physically).

If that's the case, she has a strange way of showing it! She's already expressed that she knows how attracted I am to her. At one point she indicated that it was one of the reasons why she didn't place as much confidence in my opinions about her because I was "biased"; basically hinting in her response that she gave precedence to similar favourable opinions uttered by other people because they weren't as biased as she thinks I am.


Originally Posted by Just Learning
Guess what she is going to see if you talk with other women? She is going to see a "competitor" or her "replacement". It is going to focus her anxieties about herself and make her more insecure.

Honestly, I don't know what could possibly be going on in her mind when she sees me talking with other women. It's really strange at times. For example, she expresses a lot more concern/annoyance over their possible intentions than she does over my own. Whether or not I'm even the slightest bit interested in the other woman under examination is basically a non-issue. If I really had to guess, I think her thinking would be more along the lines of "demonstrating by extrapolation" that I was also capable of doing what she did - get involved in an A.


Originally Posted by Just Learning
You also said she is sort of hit and miss about meeting your needs suggesting that while there may be emotional intimacy in your marriage it is not deep.

You'd be right in that regard. It certainly isn't as deep as it used to be, and perhaps even when I thought it was, I might have been deceiving myself. I'm not surprised - I really can't see myself being very emotionally intimate with someone who was able to deceive me the way she did. It's more self-protection than anything else. She needs to reveal herself to me a lot more than she's currently doing so I can establish a lot more trust in her, and that's basically not happening. So we coast along in our current state...


Originally Posted by Just Learning
I'll leave you with this one last point which is what SC brought up...Don't get cocky! smile

ROFL - moi? smile smile. Seriously, I've never really been that type when it comes to dating/relationship dynamics. I'm more the "guy on the sidelines, observing the game" type. That, combined with my "you'd better not mess with me" looks, keeps me safely out of trouble smile.
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: MiM's Story... - 02/10/10 08:33 PM
I could be way off the mark but some of these things you're describing seem somewhat obvious to me, at least from a female perspective. I'll give it a shot - ignore if you want.
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
Originally Posted by Just Learning
I am guessing your W is not very secure right now. She knows she blew by her own boundaries pretty badly. She knows that she has hurt you and her marriage pretty badly. I am guessing she thinks you view her as "damaged" goods.

You may be right on the "damaged goods" part. On the "secure" part, I'm not so sure. She already has expressed to me that she will have no trouble moving on if our M ends, and I think she meant it. That doesn't sound like the utterings of someone who's insecure.
Only you heard the tone of voice, but I read it like more of a "dare" in a sense, and as such, a real sign of insecurity.

Quote
Originally Posted by Just Learning
I am also guessing she, as do many WS or FWS, "projects" their own weaknesses on those closest to them. I am also guessing that does not have a lot of confidence in her attractiveness to you (emotionally or physically).

If that's the case, she has a strange way of showing it! She's already expressed that she knows how attracted I am to her. At one point she indicated that it was one of the reasons why she didn't place as much confidence in my opinions about her because I was "biased"; basically hinting in her response that she gave precedence to similar favourable opinions uttered by other people because they weren't as biased as she thinks I am.
She doesn't know if you really feel what you are saying or if you are telling her what she thinks you want to hear. You may have done this in the past without realizing it. It's the old "do you think I look fat in these pants" problem. As a woman, we want the truth, but we also want it to be a positive truth. Often, the truth isn't positive and we know that. But I'm sure you've said she looks fine before as well.

Quote
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Guess what she is going to see if you talk with other women? She is going to see a "competitor" or her "replacement". It is going to focus her anxieties about herself and make her more insecure.

Honestly, I don't know what could possibly be going on in her mind when she sees me talking with other women. It's really strange at times. For example, she expresses a lot more concern/annoyance over their possible intentions than she does over my own. Whether or not I'm even the slightest bit interested in the other woman under examination is basically a non-issue. If I really had to guess, I think her thinking would be more along the lines of "demonstrating by extrapolation" that I was also capable of doing what she did - get involved in an A.
Women are far worse than men in terms of general dishonesty and deception. It begins when they are little girls - their playground fights may not have the violence of boys but they far exceed them in cruelty. As a former wayward female herself, she knows other women can't be trusted. I don't trust other women, either.

Quote
Originally Posted by Just Learning
You also said she is sort of hit and miss about meeting your needs suggesting that while there may be emotional intimacy in your marriage it is not deep.

You'd be right in that regard. It certainly isn't as deep as it used to be, and perhaps even when I thought it was, I might have been deceiving myself. I'm not surprised - I really can't see myself being very emotionally intimate with someone who was able to deceive me the way she did. It's more self-protection than anything else. She needs to reveal herself to me a lot more than she's currently doing so I can establish a lot more trust in her, and that's basically not happening. So we coast along in our current state...
I hope you can grow out of this. But I don't know what to say.


Quote
Originally Posted by Just Learning
I'll leave you with this one last point which is what SC brought up...Don't get cocky! smile

ROFL - moi? smile smile. Seriously, I've never really been that type when it comes to dating/relationship dynamics. I'm more the "guy on the sidelines, observing the game" type. That, combined with my "you'd better mess with me" looks, keeps me safely out of trouble smile.
And this is FURTHER reason not to trust other women!!!!!
Posted By: Just Learning Re: MiM's Story... - 02/10/10 08:39 PM
MiM,

You said
Quote
Honestly, I don't know what could possibly be going on in her mind when she sees me talking with other women. It's really strange at times. For example, she expresses a lot more concern/annoyance over their possible intentions than she does over my own. Whether or not I'm even the slightest bit interested in the other woman under examination is basically a non-issue. If I really had to guess, I think her thinking would be more along the lines of "demonstrating by extrapolation" that I was also capable of doing what she did - get involved in an A.


Quote
You'd be right in that regard. It certainly isn't as deep as it used to be, and perhaps even when I thought it was, I might have been deceiving myself. I'm not surprised - I really can't see myself being very emotionally intimate with someone who was able to deceive me the way she did. It's more self-protection than anything else. She needs to reveal herself to me a lot more than she's currently doing so I can establish a lot more trust in her, and that's basically not happening. So we coast along in our current state...


I think your answers reflect what I am saying. This is an opportunity for you to come in under the radar and find out what she is thinking and seeing without discussing the A. You will learn more and it will help you to do so.

As for her
Quote
You may be right on the "damaged goods" part. On the "secure" part, I'm not so sure. She already has expressed to me that she will have no trouble moving on if our M ends, and I think she meant it. That doesn't sound like the comments of someone who's insecure.
I think this indicates a defensive position based on lack of confidence in herself and an act of insecurity. People don't say that if they are secure in the marriage or their own skin. They do say it if they are trying to protect themselves.

You could ask here about her desire to remain in the marriage. And you could express your own insecurity about your lack of understanding about her thinking process and how she sees things.

If she can simply take or leave the marriage, then she is in withdrawal and that needs to be addressed.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 02/10/10 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by Tabby1
Only you heard the tone of voice, but I read it like more of a "dare" in a sense, and as such, a real sign of insecurity.

Yes, it does read that way, but I can assure you that the tone definitely was not that of a dare. I'd asked the question, and she answered plainly and frankly.

Originally Posted by Tabby1
She doesn't know if you really feel what you are saying or if you are telling her what she thinks you want to hear.

Um, I think she knows. Listen, she has to do everything short of beat me off with a stick to keep me away from her at times smile. In fact, she's expressed the concern that I might only be interested in her physically. Not true, of course, but I can see why she'd think so at times.

Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 02/10/10 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
You could ask here about her desire to remain in the marriage.

Now, it looks like you want to get me into trouble! If I ask her a question like that, it will likely turn out to be another "dance with the bramble-bush". That's because she'd likely immediately assume that the only reason I'm asking that is because I don't want to stay in the M and I just don't want to tell her that. That I'm just looking for the easy way out by trying to get her to admit that she's not interested. And she'll start asking questions and pushing for answers along that line. I know my FWW well enough to know what happens when I pose questions like that, LOL.


Originally Posted by Just Learning
And you could express your own insecurity about your lack of understanding about her thinking process and how she sees things.

BTDT. See "dance with the bramble-bush" comment above for the typical results of such conversations.

It seems the only thing that works is either gauge her by her actions, or wait until SHE brings up such subjects for discussion. - which rarely happens.


Originally Posted by Just Learning
If she can simply take or leave the marriage, then she is in withdrawal and that needs to be addressed.

Her actions suggest that she's somewhat interested in keeping the M (most likely for the childrens' sake, but there could be other reasons), but she's not "in love" with me.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: MiM's Story... - 02/10/10 09:07 PM
MIM,

Quote
Her actions suggest that she's somewhat interested in keeping the M (most likely for the childrens' sake, but there could be other reasons), but she's not "in love" with me.


And you are staying in this marriage, because...?

My suggestion was to address her concerns about other woman, which should not be a dance with the bramble bush as you put it. That was the point of this being an opportunity to come in under the radar screen.

JL
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 02/10/10 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
And you are staying in this marriage, because...?

..because there's no better option at this point.


Originally Posted by Just Learning
My suggestion was to address her concerns about other woman, which should not be a dance with the bramble bush as you put it. That was the point of this being an opportunity to come in under the radar screen.

Ok, I'll give it a try. If I return later with cuts 'n' bruises and pieces of bramble sticking out of my hair, you'll know what happened smile.
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: MiM's Story... - 02/11/10 12:39 AM

Quote
she's expressed the concern that I might only be interested in her physically.

And where is it written that's a bad thing?

Okay, in our broad culture, women dress to impress other women, who they correctly understand are far more dangerous predators than the males. So it is said. . .

AND they often dress to lure a male in whom they have an interest emphasizing their physical attributes.

Yet there is this thing where we are supposed to not just love them for their how attractive they are.

Heck, send her a pajamagram.

Larry

Posted By: Just Learning Re: MiM's Story... - 02/11/10 01:01 AM
Quote
Ok, I'll give it a try. If I return later with cuts 'n' bruises and pieces of bramble sticking out of my hair, you'll know what happened


Bruises and brambles will be duly noted and logged, as you wish. smile

Best of luck, MIM

JL
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 02/11/10 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Best of luck, MIM

Well, the conversation got nowhere. I asked, and the response was along the lines of "well, I just feel that way, and no, I don't know why I feel that way, I just do".

I didn't press the subject. I've been down that road already, and I know where it ends - in a wrestling match with a bramble-bush.

So, it's back to coasting along for the moment...



Posted By: ManInMotion Dealing with humiliation... - 04/06/10 03:55 PM
Apparently a few persons have found out about my FWW's cheating and are using this information in an attempt to publicly humiliate me. I'm curious as who how other BSs on this forum have handled such situations.

Posted By: Gamma Re: Dealing with humiliation... - 04/06/10 04:12 PM
MIM,

In reality YOU have done nothing wrong, and have no reason to be shamed by your wifes behavior. You stood by your family while suffering great internal pain, the truth will eventually get out there is no way to avoid it, be glad you know who knows.

Gamma
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: Dealing with humiliation... - 04/06/10 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
Apparently a few persons have found out about my FWW's cheating and are using this information in an attempt to publicly humiliate me. I'm curious as who how other BSs on this forum have handled such situations.

Those with private lives have probably long since exposed the affair.

I have long felt that you were a public figure of some sort, in some location. This means target in many places.

I suspect you have the reputation as a "Stand up" guy who can be trusted.

If what I believe is true, then you need "Spin" control. Without knowing all the details, I cannot help you. Perhaps others can. Much would depend on who you are, the culture of where you live, who your enemies are, and the like.

The devil is in the details as Dic*k Morris is fond of saying. I would guess you know who he is.

Larry
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: Dealing with humiliation... - 04/06/10 04:48 PM

Let's say you are the Prime Minister of a small country in the Indian Ocean, for example.

"I am a public person. Everything I do, say, or believe is subject to public examination. It has come to my attention that certain people are attempting to discredit me by exposing the so-called details of something they say my wife did many years ago. That they would do this says more about their lack of morals, ethics and integrity than it does about my wife or me."

Larry
Posted By: black_raven Re: Dealing with humiliation... - 04/06/10 05:14 PM
It depends...sometimes ignore, other times...if you have ammo to shoot down the ones squawking - pull the trigger, if some one is approaching you in a nasty way, tell them you hope they do the same for the cheaters in their own family. flirt
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Dealing with humiliation... - 04/06/10 05:39 PM
MiM,

You stated
Quote
Apparently a few persons have found out about my FWW's cheating and are using this information in an attempt to publicly humiliate me.


I am reminded of a campaign for Gov. in the crazy state of CA. Which I will add is not " a state of mind" as Texas likes to say, but a state out of its mind as I like to say. smile

It seems we had a man running for office who was an international champion body builder and yes even starred in a few movies MrRollieEyes. He was being interrogated by the press about his behavior back in his 20's on Venice beach. Even an interview he gave to a "men's magazine back in the day.

His response was was something like the following.

I was in my 20's, I was a champion body builder, I was single, there were many women running around in tiny bikinis...do I look stupid?

That was really the end of that topic for the whole election.

MiM if I were your "campaign" manager I would tell you to say:

"I am an honest man. I have a family I love very much. I took a vow when I married and I entend to do my best to fulfill it. Do you have a problem with that?"

I think that would end any further conversatons.

Just a thought.

JL
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: Dealing with humiliation... - 04/06/10 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Gamma
In reality YOU have done nothing wrong, and have no reason to be shamed by your wifes behavior. You stood by your family while suffering great internal pain, the truth will eventually get out there is no way to avoid it, be glad you know who knows.

In theory, this should be true. In reality, the cuckolded husband is always the butt of jokes, in almost every society.

FWIW, I don't know the person who is doing this at the moment. They are choosing to remain anonymous.

Posted By: ManInMotion Re: Dealing with humiliation... - 04/06/10 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by _Larry_
Those with private lives have probably long since exposed the affair.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case. I live in a small community - a secret here is basically something that everyone knows but no-one says that they know.

Originally Posted by _Larry_
I have long felt that you were a public figure of some sort, in some location. This means target in many places.

I'm not an official public figure, but I am well-known in my community.


Originally Posted by _Larry_
I suspect you have the reputation as a "Stand up" guy who can be trusted.

Correct. I think because of this they know that I'm not going to play the part of typical politician and deny that my FWW was involved in any A, because I would be saying something that I know to be false.
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: Dealing with humiliation... - 04/15/10 04:35 PM
MiM

Couple of things. I am curious how the character assassination campaign against you is being dealt with, hopefully in your favor, and secondly, something you said in NowWhat's thread might need addressing if you have the time.

You gave me a hint there and I attempted to somewhat obliquely tell the guy what was going on. I did the best I could. You may have some ideas, since I think you got it, right away. The OM got himself a trophy. Whoopie. . .

Quote
in my society, guys are hardly looked at with dishonour if they get involved in an A.

El Camino made some references to that cultural background as well as an extension of it that goes back to what you said with your question relating to character assassination.

All the best MiM, you got here about the same time I did. And much of your situation is the same as mine in so many ways. In my own deal, we reached a point where she wasn't going to go one more step, so I gave up. There were other, compelling, reasons and we divorced.

Larry
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: Dealing with humiliation... - 04/15/10 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by _Larry_
Couple of things. I am curious how the character assassination campaign against you is being dealt with, hopefully in your favor, and secondly, something you said in NowWhat's thread might need addressing if you have the time.

It has died down for the moment. It will likely start up again whenever someone who knows feels that they need to "take me down a notch".


Originally Posted by _Larry_
You gave me a hint there and I attempted to somewhat obliquely tell the guy what was going on. I did the best I could. You may have some ideas, since I think you got it, right away. The OM got himself a trophy.

That was exactly what was going through my mind.
Posted By: ManInMotion Is August "Splitsville Month"..? - 08/28/10 03:42 PM
So, on returning home yesterday from an outing with the girls, "Tangled" gives me a big hug and kiss, and thanks me for "sticking it out" with her and choosing to remain M'd. Turns out she found out via the girls' grape vine that several of our acquaintances and friends were separating, or had separated, or were even vigorously pursuing D this month. What gives? Must be the weather or something...

Posted By: Just Learning Re: Is August "Splitsville Month"..? - 08/28/10 11:43 PM
OR...

It could be that she has reversed her cranial transplant operation and now sees things in the light of day. laugh

Just a thought.

JL
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Is August "Splitsville Month"..? - 08/29/10 12:01 AM
Maybe she found her Midol?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Is August "Splitsville Month"..? - 08/29/10 04:34 PM

Look MIM. Your wife:

1. Wrecked your sexuality
2. Yells at you every day
3. Lazy
4. Uses you for money and then boinks another man
5. Lies to you constantly
6. Is shady and manipulative
7. Does not, cannot love you and admits she is not in love with you.
8. Has ruined your life completely
9. Had not added much positive to your life
10. Will cheat on you again without a second thought
11. Has no morals, values, or sense of right and wrong.
12. Blatently lies to you, walks all over your feelings, and casually shows you she does not care in any way about you.
13. Pretends to care and appreciate you to keep her place in the marriage.
14. Knows exactly how far she can push you and enjoys pushing you a bit furthur
15. Yells at the kids. They will need 20 years of therapy because of her

If you are to stay with such a human female monster as her, you are quite mentally unbalanced. Perhaps you are caught in that cycle of abuse and your self esteem is so ruined you cannot value yourself enough to get out, away from the abuser. And you do not see clearly what this woman has done to you and is still continuing to do to you. She is working you, man to live off of you, etc. She too is afraid of leaving you becuase you are the paycheck.


I doubt you could ever trust your wife. So I would develop a plan to get other things out of her if you are too afraid to get a divorce.

Make sure she is contributing to the household in every way. This will keep her feet in the marriage.

1. Ask her to contribute financially to the family
2. Ask her to contribute domestic support for the family
3. Ask her to do yardword.
4. Ask her for many other things
5. Ask her to make out a budget with you and stick to it
6. Ask her to refrain from any more outbursts against you and the kids.

I would make it clear there are consequences for not contributing to the family.

The point is, if you are busy asking her to do things and contribute, you are also "putting your stamp" on her and letting her know she just cannot live off you and then disrespect you. It is all about respect. If she knows she can walk all over you and THEN BOINK ANOTHER MAN!!! Well, then you have 15 more years of living with a monster you helped create by not being assertive enough.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: Is August "Splitsville Month"..? - 08/30/10 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
Look MIM. Your wife:

1. Wrecked your sexuality
2. Yells at you every day
3. Lazy
4. Uses you for money and then boinks another man
5. Lies to you constantly
6. Is shady and manipulative
7. Does not, cannot love you and admits she is not in love with you.
8. Has ruined your life completely
9. Had not added much positive to your life
10. Will cheat on you again without a second thought
11. Has no morals, values, or sense of right and wrong.
12. Blatently lies to you, walks all over your feelings, and casually shows you she does not care in any way about you.
13. Pretends to care and appreciate you to keep her place in the marriage.
14. Knows exactly how far she can push you and enjoys pushing you a bit furthur
15. Yells at the kids. They will need 20 years of therapy because of her

A lot of that list assigns attributes to my FWW that are very exaggerated and in some cases very very wrong.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: Is August "Splitsville Month"..? - 08/30/10 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
OR...

It could be that she has reversed her cranial transplant operation and now sees things in the light of day. laugh

Just a thought.

JL

If it was a transplant, it didn't last - things were quickly back to the "new normal" as of Saturday evening. She was actually a bit more short-tempered than usual, in fact. It was good while it lasted smile.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/21/11 03:03 PM
All, just a quick update. A few days ago, at a small convention, who should be bounce into but the OM. It was a small gathering, he was with friends of ours, and it was basically impossible to avoid him.

About an hour or so after we returned home, my FWW asked me if I wanted to speak about anything (when she tries to start a discussion like that, it's usually about the OM or the A - she wants me to be the one to bring the specific subject up). I said not really, as I don't think that there's anything that could be said that would lead me to feel any better about the situation (particularly as we'd discussed what she would do if such a situation arose, and she didn't do anything we discussed). There was a bit of DJing on her part after that, but I made it clear it wasn't something that I wanted to discuss (especially not with her in that kind of mood).

Later on, I asked her how she felt, running into the OM again, and she replied that she felt "uncomfortable". Now, to the uninitiated, one would likely take that response as being based on how she felt about the OM and leave it at that. However, knowing how I've been misled by my FWW's comments in the past by taking them at "face value", I asked her why she felt that way, and she said "because she knew that I would be feeling uncomfortable in that situation". In other words, no insight at all into how she she currently felt about the OM, grr. From past experience, I knew that further digging into the issue with her would be about as rewarding as trying to dance with a bramble-bush, so I dropped the subject at this point.

I guess I could assume that she felt totally indifferent about the OM (hence her focus on how she thought I might be feeling in that situation), but I know the kind of trouble those assumptions got me into in the past...!
Posted By: Gamma Re: MiM's Story... - 05/21/11 08:25 PM
MiM,

OM...he was with friends of ours

Do your "friends" know what happened?

I'm having that struggle with my wife now, OM4s daughter sent my wife a thank you card for being so nice to her father, I want to set the daughter straight but my W is dead set against it. In the past she has told my W she views her like a sister!

When the people on the sideline don't put 2 and 2 together it can be really painful.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 05/22/11 12:35 AM
Originally Posted by Gamma
Do your "friends" know what happened?

No. At least not officially. I didn't know the MB techniques back then, and the A had basically ended by the time I found out. Thinking back on it, I should have exposed anyway, at least to her office.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 08/23/11 04:44 PM
A quick update. At the moment, I feel that things have been slowly going downhill again, and I see that some of the older LBing and distant behaviour that I used to accept pre-A is once more returning. In fact, the LBing and distant behaviour recently reached a point that I started having serious doubts about the future of our M and also began to wonder if she was once again starting another "secret life" with someone else.

I think I used to ignore it pre-A because I placed a much greater value on the trust in our M. Of course, that trust was destroyed when she chose to have her A, so now that the behaviour has returned, it's now a lot more noticeable.

We have been planning to do some much-needed renovations to our home. After spending two sleepless nights thinking about our plans and the current state of our relationship, I IM'd my FWW yesterday (the only method I know of communicating with her and being able to get my point across without the conversation devolving into DJs and the like, or me being accused of saying things that I didn't say) and informed her that I was no longer comfortable with proceeding with such a significant financial investment (which will be primarly paid of our my pocket), considering what was happening in our M at the moment. I also indicated why I thought I thought that our M was once again in trouble, that I was beginning to feel that I was being "kept in the dark" again, that the LBing she was putting me through felt the same was what she was doing to me during her A.

Her first response was that I was stopping the plans to punish her. There was no initial concern or even acknowledgement of the reason why I was putting the brakes on - that I thought our M was getting into trouble again. We continued IM'ing for awhile, during which I was accused of "going through phases", and I'll keep "thinking whatever I want to think, no matter what she does", etc., etc. Perhaps I was lucky that she had to leave before the fireworks really started to go off.

We'll have to talk about our current situation again soon. Perhaps tonight. When I got home last night, she didn't mention a word about our earlier conversation. But I did get a hug later on when we were lying down in bed. First one in over a month.


Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 12/25/11 12:06 AM
I found out a day or so ago that one of my relatives came home to find his W gone and all of her clothes and other belongings missing (presumably taken with her). One week before Christmas frown. They have not been M'd for more than a few years, but apparently the M had been going through some problems for at least the last year or so (I don't have all the details, but apparently his W is a WW). I haven't spoken to him yet, so I'm not sure how he's taking it. I am tempted to introduce him to this site. At the very least, it may help him get through what is likely a very trying time.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: MiM's Story... - 12/25/11 12:19 AM
He will certainly get help here, MiM.

What about your own situation? I have only just read your post from August - I must have been abroad when you made that one. Have things changed at all?

MiM, you are one of the people that came to this site during what some of us have been referring to as the bad old days of MB. I have read your history, and it doesn't seem to me that you were ever taken through Dr Harley's programme.

Do you feel that you have been in a genuine marital recovery? Your wife even posted here for a while. Did your ever use the Marriage Builders programme day-today in your marriage?
Posted By: Gamma Re: MiM's Story... - 12/25/11 01:12 AM
MIM,

Send him here, if he understands MB it will be the best Christmas gift ever.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: MiM's Story... - 12/25/11 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
He will certainly get help here, MiM.

I'll send him here when the opportunity arises. I'm likely to meet him today, and I'll mention MB.


Originally Posted by SugarCane
What about your own situation?

We seem to be in a sort of "holding pattern" at the moment. My FWW isn't a big MB fan (no surprise there), but understands some of the principles. I try to practice them when I can, particularly the avoidance of love-busting. Meeting ENs however is proving to be difficult. I have some theories around that, but I'll wait a few days before getting into that. Today I'll be spending most of my time with friends and family.

Posted By: ManInMotion Sexless M... - 02/27/13 01:38 AM
I thought I'd post a little update. As the "Subject" says, I think our M can now be considered as "sexless". Basically we have not had SF since early August last year, when she returned from a trip overseas. We tried, but to me it just didn't feel right, and I have not tried or even approached the subject since. To be honest, I'm a bit turned off at the thought of it, but I'm not sure why. She doesn't seem to mind - she did tell me that SF (which I interpreted as "SF with me" as she apparently did not have the same hangups when with the OM) was not one of her "needs".

Otherwise life seems to be Ok at the moment. We have the odd argument as most M'd couples do, and our lives are a bit more independent than I'd like them to be, but that's about it. Frankly I'm not really concerned about the lack of SF at the moment, but I'm concerned over my lack of concern, if you understand what I mean.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Sexless M... - 02/27/13 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
I thought I'd post a little update. As the "Subject" says, I think our M can now be considered as "sexless". Basically we have not had SF since early August last year, when she returned from a trip overseas. We tried, but to me it just didn't feel right, and I have not tried or even approached the subject since. To be honest, I'm a bit turned off at the thought of it, but I'm not sure why. She doesn't seem to mind - she did tell me that SF (which I interpreted as "SF with me" as she apparently did not have the same hangups when with the OM) was not one of her "needs".

Otherwise life seems to be Ok at the moment. We have the odd argument as most M'd couples do, and our lives are a bit more independent than I'd like them to be, but that's about it. Frankly I'm not really concerned about the lack of SF at the moment, but I'm concerned over my lack of concern, if you understand what I mean.
Do you spend nights apart, still?

How much UA time are you two getting?
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: Sexless M... - 02/27/13 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Do you spend nights apart, still?

How much UA time are you two getting?

We don't spend very many nights apart (that trip I referred to was the last occasion that happened), but we don't a lot of UA time together either.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Sexless M... - 02/28/13 12:22 AM
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Do you spend nights apart, still?

How much UA time are you two getting?

We don't spend very many nights apart (that trip I referred to was the last occasion that happened), but we don't a lot of UA time together either.

Change your screen name.

A man in motion would be getting things done in the UA time department.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Sexless M... - 02/28/13 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Do you spend nights apart, still?

How much UA time are you two getting?

We don't spend very many nights apart (that trip I referred to was the last occasion that happened), but we don't a lot of UA time together either.
How come?
Posted By: wilderness Re: Sexless M... - 02/28/13 03:34 AM
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
I thought I'd post a little update. As the "Subject" says, I think our M can now be considered as "sexless". Basically we have not had SF since early August last year, when she returned from a trip overseas. We tried, but to me it just didn't feel right, and I have not tried or even approached the subject since. To be honest, I'm a bit turned off at the thought of it, but I'm not sure why. She doesn't seem to mind - she did tell me that SF (which I interpreted as "SF with me" as she apparently did not have the same hangups when with the OM) was not one of her "needs".

Otherwise life seems to be Ok at the moment. We have the odd argument as most M'd couples do, and our lives are a bit more independent than I'd like them to be, but that's about it. Frankly I'm not really concerned about the lack of SF at the moment, but I'm concerned over my lack of concern, if you understand what I mean.

Why not take the opposite approach and relentlessly persue your W for sex? It seems to me that the writing is on the wall when it comes to a sexless marriage. Why die the slow death? Instead, put her feet to the fire and she either steps up and gives it up, or the marriage ends quickly and you can move on with your life.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Sexless M... - 02/28/13 04:22 AM
Have you seen this?
The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention
Posted By: BetrayedP Re: Sexless M... - 03/01/13 12:27 AM
Why aren't you interested in SF? Maybe you need to get checked physically. Is it that your drive is low? Maybe it's hormonal?

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