Marriage Builders
Posted By: optimism Another EA Story - 10/27/09 03:51 AM
it's like a nightmare.... -sorry for the long post; I tried to be concise but give pertinent info.
The EA.
Hi everyone. New to the forum and somewhat new to the MB concepts; I found the website in July and then promptly bought the 5 steps book (2 copies- one for each of us) and HNHN for Parents. We�ve both read them and filled out the LB and EN�s questionairre. It took some persuading as W really wasn�t into that approach although she has been going to counselling with me for a couple of monthes (bi-weekly and we�ve missed the last two...). I�ve read the Basic Concepts and many articles on the site, and I�ve been reading the forum for several weeks - very helpful in many cases.

Background: Over the summer my wife developed a habit of having several neighbors over to our house for socializing in the early evening out on the front porch mostly. All the kids played together and it�s a closely knit group. I never loved that kind of thing, but kinda went along with it, thinking there wasn�t much harm in it.
As it turns out, W was all the while developing an EA with the neighbor, a 30 yo (15 years her junior) who had become infatuated with her at least several months (possibly years) prior (we didn�t know that at the time). There were also other times when they were together on a �friend� basis while I was at work (no, nothing physical, I�m sure of it). In June I figured out things were not as they seemed and confronted her on her feelings toward the OM and she basically down-played it. Then on July 4 her behavior during the festivities was unmistakably inappropriate and I confronted her again- at that time she stated she �didn�t know� if she was in love with him. That�s when we started therapy and really started talking seriously about divorce or separation, going forward, etc. [Enter MB material mentioned above]. My understanding at that point was that the affair (which she refused to recognize as an affair) was over. At first I tried to be understanding with the OM but eventually made it clear that we no longer wanted him around - �stay away from my house, my wife, my kids.� He claimed his intentions were NEVER nefarious, so I allowed myself the false believe that it would be no big deal for him to honor my request (he was lying).

I thought my wife was being open and honest with me since around this time, but as it turns out she has been continuing to remain in contact with the OM, aparently through intermittent phone conversations. Tonight she returned from a visit with our daughter to her mother�s in Florida and confessed that she had spoken with him, that it was a common occurance and that she loved me but didn�t think we could realistically ever expect to be compatible. I was able to convince her to some extent that we would really never know until she recognized that she�s having and affair and it has to stop if we�re really able to proceed with the marriage. (a prior post I read here showed me this is a very common pattern where the wayward spouse justifies the behavior with �it�s not the OM, it�s our marriage that�s the problem� - I see some truth to the philosphy, but recognize it�s mostly justification. I think the quote was, �women usually don�t leave until there�s an escape plan.�)

More background and then some questions for the more experienced:
We have not had a great marriage ever (not terrible but not great. And we�ve provided a safe, sane environment for the kids now 13 and 8). We have both had affairs in our past, we have multiple times tried to piece things together. I totally recognize my role in all this- I�ve been selfish, critical, unaccepting of this beautiful woman. She has not been honest with me over the years, often due to the way I would react when she was. I understand I�m not the only victim. I�ve never allowed her to thrive and I finally came to that realization about a month ago, when I made a commitment to be a better person.
It�s questionable if our marriage was built on a strong foundation - we essentially married due to a pregancy, then had another; but have always tried to rise above our discontent with counselling at various times and reading other books, etc.
At one point over the summer, she had an epiphany of her own and announced that she had been dishonest with herself, that she couldn�t continue to be in a marriage without real love. Ultimately I agreed that it wasn�t the kind of marriage I really wanted either, and I committed to working it through. In fact, I asked her to give me/us a chance one last time and if, after a �reasonable period� we can�t get on the same page, I would be willing to let the marriage go (as she was basically requesting at the time).

Now, we�re back at square one in my view, because all of the time we have been working on the relationship, she was actually carrying on the affair. As I said, she never saw it as an affair; evidently because it wasn�t physical. Meanwhile, she was feeling like it�s been a �reasonable amount of time� and that we�ll never really find true love. Although, as I write and after some further conversation, I believe (hope) she now is somewhat aware of the destructiveness of the inappropriate relationship and is at least considering cutting it off for good (it remains to be seen what will happen there; where�s my chrystal ball?)

Finally, here are some questions (and thanks for staying with me this far), and thanks in advance for your support:

How do I lure her away from the temptation of the OM as I don�t think she is thinking rationally?

I firmly believe in the MB principles; how do I get her to feel the same way? Or might that come more naturally when/if the OM is REALLY out of the picture?

At what point can I expect her to feel some remorse? At this time I realize she is so wound up with the positive feelings she gets from �you�re all I ever dreamed of...I think of you first thing in the morning...we could have such a nice life together...etc� she is hardly seeing it from my (or the kids�) perspective.

This is so painful for me (fighting every urge to become violent with the OM, as well as a flurry of so many other emotions including regret that I let it go this far and didn�t recognize signs). I know irrational actions will not help matters. But, at what point do I say �I simply can�t trust this woman� and move on?

~Optimism

PS - I just read a letter on planA/planB and will ask my wife to read it tomorrow.
Posted By: Bottlerocket Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 04:25 AM
Optim, please know that you've been heard. It gets slow around here at night. The Vet's will be around tomorrow to help you out.

Please come back, and please hang in there for this evening.

I know your pain is massive, just please, hang in there for tonight.
Posted By: L2L Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 04:34 AM
Do you both want to create romantic love that will be real? I know you do but does she?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 11:42 AM
I am so sorry you are here but welcome to MB.

Originally Posted by optimism
PS - I just read a letter on planA/planB and will ask my wife to read it tomorrow.
First things first....DO NOT show your WW the Plan A/B info or anything else from this site! You don't want her knowing about MB while you are getting help and information on how to fight this.

Your WW is under the influence of a powerful&addicting drug ~ the EA. You can expect her to be dishonest, act selfishly, and be "confused" about the marriage...while there is ANY CONTACT at all with OM. That means this will be an uphill battle whilst you are living next door to him.

My H was involved in EA with a coworker and said all sorts of things to me like he only viewed me as a friend, etc, while there was contact. When he didn't have contact with OW for a period of time, his feelings would start to come back for me. As soon as he saw OW, he would feel "confused" all over again. I tell you this to hopefully demonstrate the importance of NC. Even glances at the OP will trigger the addictive feelings and thoughts. Have you thought about moving?

I'm sure better posters will be by to help you soon, but a couple questions:
Is OM married? If so, has she been informed of the EA?
Who else have you exposed to?

Hang in there and read as much as you can here.
Posted By: Mr_Recon6mo Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 12:09 PM
I'm not a vet as you see from the number of my posts (I had more prior the forum crash still...).

I had somewhat similar situation (W had A) about a year and a half ago. I would have spared myself from alot of pain if I had followed advice that is spread here over and over again (I did not know about MB then):

- expose the affair to all who have influence to disturb the A (if there is, then especially OMW!)
- NC even if that means relocating or changing jobs (and that means no contact at all, in any level)

Without these prerequisites, saving your marriage is very hard (if not impossible).

Trying to "educate" your WW about MB principles is waste of time.

Citation from Bob Huizenga ("How To Break Free From The Affair"):

"The actions and thoughts of your spouse primarily originate from her need to attach to another person. Any behavior or concept that serves the purpose of maintaining the attachment will be valued. Others are discarded."

So, you need to act, but trying to convince your WW that she is wrong or the path she has chosen will lead to chaos, will not work. Actual reality is not her reality anymore.

Exposure serves the purpose of bringing her back to real life (which is painful for her of course as waking from drug high) and NC helps to avoid the contact with the drug (OM). After the withdrawal, actual marriage building can start but withdrawal cannot even begin without NC.

If you have read Plan A then this is a lot more than just being nice to WW. One part of plan A is the exposure. So, if you will introduce plan A (eg warn about exposure) to your spouse, you will actually give away most potent weapon to kill the affair.

So, instead of "introducing" plan A to your WW, start following it.

Link to "The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A"

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2252378&page=1
Posted By: GloveOil Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 01:02 PM
What's the neighbor(OM)'s situation? Is he married?
Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by L2L
Do you both want to create romantic love that will be real? I know you do but does she?

I stayed home from work today and she went in late. I started watching "Fireproof" and she stayed and watched it with me - I didn't push it, it was just there as an option. After the movie she essentially continued to push the issue of a 'trial separation' to "clear her head." The movie did not seem to have much of a persuasive affect on her outlook. She either doesn't see the possibility of accomplishing a romantic love or is too clouded by the affair to be open to it.
Opt
Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 08:00 PM


Originally Posted by optimism
PS - I just read a letter on planA/planB and will ask my wife to read it tomorrow.
First things first....DO NOT show your WW the Plan A/B info or anything else from this site! You don't want her knowing about MB while you are getting help and information on how to fight this.
[/quote]

Too late. I printed it out and it was on my desk. She read it before I got up. We didn't talk about it much except at one point today she stated "why does everything have to be out of a book with you?!"
Posted By: SusieQ Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
Originally Posted by L2L
Do you both want to create romantic love that will be real? I know you do but does she?

I stayed home from work today and she went in late. I started watching "Fireproof" and she stayed and watched it with me - I didn't push it, it was just there as an option. After the movie she essentially continued to push the issue of a 'trial separation' to "clear her head." The movie did not seem to have much of a persuasive affect on her outlook. She either doesn't see the possibility of accomplishing a romantic love or is too clouded by the affair to be open to it.
Opt
No she won't be able to feel hopeful about being romantic with you while she is in contact with her OP and having those addictive feelings and thoughts.

She is pushing for trial separation? You know that's code for her wanting more freedom to pursue the affair, right? DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOME! There is a thread on this, I will try to find it and bump it for you.
Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by recon6mo
- expose the affair to all who have influence to disturb the A (if there is, then especially OMW!)
- NC even if that means relocating or changing jobs (and that means no contact at all, in any level)

In July I decided to get some time alone and left the kids with some very good mutual friends. I told them W was having an affair and I needed some time to myself (I wandered around a mall). When she found out I told them she was FURIOUS. I was afraid it was a huge withdrawal from the emotional bank account. Now I'm hearing that's what to do- should I keep it secret and do it? Do I tell her parents? And the BIG question: what about the kids? She's extremely clear that she doesn't want the kids to know; she said tonight that if we separated and she did ever develop any "real" relationship with him she would wait a YEAR before telling them. There 13 and 8; it's bizarre.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
Originally Posted by optimism
PS - I just read a letter on planA/planB and will ask my wife to read it tomorrow.
First things first....DO NOT show your WW the Plan A/B info or anything else from this site! You don't want her knowing about MB while you are getting help and information on how to fight this.

Too late. I printed it out and it was on my desk. She read it before I got up. We didn't talk about it much except at one point today she stated "why does everything have to be out of a book with you?!" [/quote]


I would hide the MB paperwork and not mention it again for now. She is foggy so hopefully she won't connect the dots and find this site. Any effort on your part to educate her marriagebuilding is a lovebuster.
Posted By: turtlehead Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 08:08 PM
Don't agree to a trial separation. If you want to work on the marriage, the place to do that is in the same house, together. NOT in two different places.

Obviously you can't force her to stay in the house but whatever you do, do NOT move out! This is abandonment and courts do not look upon it favorably.

If she brings up separation again, tell her you're not interested in separation, only in building a fantastic marriage.

Who have you exposed to, and when, and how?
Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by optimism
Originally Posted by L2L
Do you both want to create romantic love that will be real? I know you do but does she?

I stayed home from work today and she went in late. I started watching "Fireproof" and she stayed and watched it with me - I didn't push it, it was just there as an option. After the movie she essentially continued to push the issue of a 'trial separation' to "clear her head." The movie did not seem to have much of a persuasive affect on her outlook. She either doesn't see the possibility of accomplishing a romantic love or is too clouded by the affair to be open to it.
Opt
No she won't be able to feel hopeful about being romantic with you while she is in contact with her OP and having those addictive feelings and thoughts.

She is pushing for trial separation? You know that's code for her wanting more freedom to pursue the affair, right? DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOME! There is a thread on this, I will try to find it and bump it for you.


Holy Crap Susie, thanks so much. She's at work and I was planning on packing a bag and staying somewhere tonight. I'll stay home instead. I'll be happy to read the thread.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
Originally Posted by recon6mo
- expose the affair to all who have influence to disturb the A (if there is, then especially OMW!)
- NC even if that means relocating or changing jobs (and that means no contact at all, in any level)

In July I decided to get some time alone and left the kids with some very good mutual friends. I told them W was having an affair and I needed some time to myself (I wandered around a mall). When she found out I told them she was FURIOUS. I was afraid it was a huge withdrawal from the emotional bank account. Now I'm hearing that's what to do- should I keep it secret and do it? Do I tell her parents? And the BIG question: what about the kids? She's extremely clear that she doesn't want the kids to know; she said tonight that if we separated and she did ever develop any "real" relationship with him she would wait a YEAR before telling them. There 13 and 8; it's bizarre.
You need to get a stellar exposure plan together. It's the best tool you have to bust up the A. Yes, you will definitely need to tell her parents and your children.

Get your plan together ASAP (hopefully vets will be by soon to help you) and definitely keep it a secret from her.

What about OMW?
Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
[quote=optimism]
I would hide the MB paperwork and not mention it again for now. She is foggy so hopefully she won't connect the dots and find this site. Any effort on your part to educate her marriagebuilding is a lovebuster.

I understand. This goes along with the "you're pushing it down my throat" statement from earlier.
Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by turtlehead
Don't agree to a trial separation. If you want to work on the marriage, the place to do that is in the same house, together. NOT in two different places.

Obviously you can't force her to stay in the house but whatever you do, do NOT move out! This is abandonment and courts do not look upon it favorably.

If she brings up separation again, tell her you're not interested in separation, only in building a fantastic marriage.

Who have you exposed to, and when, and how?


Okay TH, and you answered my other question which was more of a legal concern, in case it ever came to that. I have not exposed the situation to anyone besides our good friends a while ago, but they don't know it has continued past the original "d-day."
She wants to do this wacky thing where one of us sleeps in the office as a psuedo separation. How do I address that?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 08:20 PM
Here's the thread I mentioned:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1984719&page=1

Do not leave the bedroom either. More help is coming. Hang in there.
Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 08:23 PM
"- NC even if that means relocating or changing jobs (and that means no contact at all, in any level)"

In early October I wrote a heart-felt letter asking forgiveness and vowing to change my past behaviors. (It reminded me of a scene from Fireproof at the end, and I had yet to see the movie). She claims that after that she asked him to stop calling so much but he only laid off for a little while.
I don't know how to convince her about NC means NC.
I'd be willing to move, but that takes time and she'd never go for it.
Posted By: turtlehead Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 08:32 PM
You need to watch the DJs. You seem to know what she'd accept, what she'd do, what she'd go for... you speak for her a lot. Maybe that's just here on the forums but it's prevalent enough that I think it warrants an examination of your behavior with her in real life. Just in case.

If she wants to sleep in the office, you can't stop her. Do NOT move out of your bedroom though! Also don't finance any of the "separation" - like paying for a comfortable sofa-bed or any of that nonsense. If she says she's going to sleep in the office, be honest about your feelings. If it saddens you to see her pull away, tell her so. Tell her she's welcome back in "our" bed whenever she wants. Just be honest about it.
Posted By: turtlehead Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 08:34 PM
You vowed to change your past behaviors.
What behaviors? Did you change them? For how long?

Actions speak much more loudly than words. If you say you're going to change, but never do, it's no good. It's even harmful.

If you change for a few days or a few weeks but slip up a little here and there, and then a bit more, and after six months you slip back into your hold habits - it's no good.

Anything other than real, permanent change is going to be seen by her as lies and tricks that you play to get her back in the marriage where she'll be "trapped" and unloved again.
Posted By: FormerPF Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 08:41 PM
"She's extremely clear that she doesn't want the kids to know; she said tonight that if we separated and she did ever develop any "real" relationship with him she would wait a YEAR before telling them."

She already has developed a real relationship with him and is already planning the future.

You need to realize, accept and come to grips with that. Then plan accordingly.
Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Here's the thread I mentioned:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1984719&page=1

Do not leave the bedroom either. More help is coming. Hang in there.

ThanksQ. Excellent post. I'm staying and sleeping in my bed and protecting my kids. period.
Now I just need some advice on this exposure concept.
Do yo know she actually wants me to sit down with her and the OM and talk things out? Has anyone ever heard of this??
Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 09:07 PM
Originally Posted by turtlehead
You vowed to change your past behaviors.
What behaviors? Did you change them? For how long?

Actions speak much more loudly than words. If you say you're going to change, but never do, it's no good. It's even harmful.

If you change for a few days or a few weeks but slip up a little here and there, and then a bit more, and after six months you slip back into your hold habits - it's no good.

Anything other than real, permanent change is going to be seen by her as lies and tricks that you play to get her back in the marriage where she'll be "trapped" and unloved again.


I know TH, I've been down that road a few times. Changing without being sincere about it. It didn't work and I eventually reverted back to the same selfish person I was. NO, this time I'e decided I don't want to spend the next 40 years of my life as a judgemental dishonest person who only accepts people who are always striving for perfection (like me). I've come to realize that accepting people as they are is more the person I want to be. It has NOT been that long since I really made this change. But after 3 weeks and no faulters, I was feeling pretty confident. I still feel confident; I know I can do this and it will be better for whoever chooses to be around me (I'm doing it for my kids too). I already told her I don't expect her to believe it or even trust me for a long time; I've just asked for a chance - one last chance and if it doesn't work, I'll know I'm simply not worthy of her love. Maybe I fail, but I've never introspected to this degree before and I know I can keep it up. time will tell.
I was so excited to see her at the airport and its like love was there like from a long time ago.
The the bomb dropped with tears and "It's just not there, and oh by the way I talked to OM...." talk about wind out of sails.

I just wanted a chance - that's what we agreed upon in July. But since then the efforts have been all empty due to her ongoing contact with OM that I wasn't aware of.
Posted By: catperson Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 09:20 PM
Quote
She wants to do this wacky thing where one of us sleeps in the office as a psuedo separation. How do I address that?
IGNORE IT!

SHE is the one who wants to pull the threads out of the family tapestry. You want them to remain where they are. If she wants it so badly, SHE can sleep in the office.

YOU refuse to do anything other than work toward recovery.

After you expose, of course.

And yes, she'll be furious. She'll tell you that you've ruined your chances, she was going to give you another chance but now you've ruined it, there's no hope left, she can never forgive you, how could you be so mean, she doesn't even know who you are any more (how ironic)...

Just listen to her, don't say a word, and continue on with your normal routine. And if you have to say anything, just say "I don't talk separation; I talk marriage."

If she says your exposure has made people hate her, you calmly say 'No, your AFFAIR made people upset with you, they don't hate you. They WILL forgive you, if you give up this lunacy and rebuild your marriage and save your family.'
Posted By: Mulan Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 09:25 PM
optimism, welcome to MB.

I gotta get back to work, but let me give you one thing to think about:

Your marriage CAN survive your WW's anger at you.
It CANNOT survive her f**king another man.

Can I make it any plainer than that?
Mulan
Posted By: catperson Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 09:28 PM
Quote
Do yo know she actually wants me to sit down with her and the OM and talk things out? Has anyone ever heard of this??
Actually, I think YOU need to go visit this OM - alone - and tell him you seriously advise him to stay many miles away from your wife. Don't threaten him. Just let him know that things won't go well if you ever find out he's contacted her again.

And then in the same breath, you get on the phone and call his wife(?)/parents/siblings, HER parents/siblings, and your parents/siblings - and your kids. They have to know so that they will understand why their lives have become so crazy - and believe me, they HAVE noticed. Your family is their whole world, so they notice every single little nuance at home.

As for her, just laugh it off. "The three of us talk? Yeah, no, I don't think so. He has no place in this family."

You seriously need to start thinking about moving.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 09:33 PM
Here is a thread I just thought of, bcboy, his WW also was having an affair with a neighbor. Here's the thread:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=151933&Number=2094738#Post2094738

Here's an excerpt of ML explaining in the above reference thread the importance of exposure better than I can so I will quote her.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Let me explain why I am suggesting exposure. Affairs thrive on secrecy. Exposing an affair is like turning on the lights in a crack house and bringing in a crowd to watch the crack heads. It ruins the high. Exposure is like CHEMOTHERAPY TO CANCER and ruins the fantasy aspect to the affair.

When your wife is forced to look at the disgust in the face of others, she will begin to see herself through the eyes of others.

Good exposure targets would be her parents, her siblings, your parents, close friends, the OM's parents, his children. When you expose to your family members, you will tell them you are trying to save your marriage, tell them all about the affair and ASK FOR THEIR ADVICE. When you ask for their advice, they are more likely to want to help you. It is very helpful when they speak to your wife about it.

Your children should be told of the affair FIRST.

Exposure is best done in ONE FELL SWOOP to get the maximum effect. It also prevents the affairees from pre-empting you.

I want to APPLAUD you for confronting the OM. I would suggest you do this every time he contacts your wife. Make as much trouble in his life as possible. He is a coward and a weiner who wont like havng to face his victim. He doesn't care about your wife and won't like the trouble.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 10:32 PM
optimism, the others have been giving you great advice. If you want to save your marriage, then you will need to take back the reigns from your wife, the drunk driver. Your wife is the mental equivalent of a falling down drunk right now. So trying to reason with a falling down drunk - or appeasing her will lead to the demise of your marriage.

The best hope you have is to expose the affair and STOP appeasing her. Don't cooperate with her separation schemes. If she wants some "space" then clean out a corner of your garage. But, for Gods sake, don't abandon your family in their time of need. You are ALL THEY HAVE RIGHT NOW.

Standing up for your family means you do not cooperate with any schemes to harm the marriage. It means calmly and firmly getting on the phone and exposing this affair in one day. Make up a list of exposure targets and start calling. If the OM is married, start with the OM wife. Call his parents if you have their #. Get the word out to everyone everywhere.

Set your children down and tell them all about your wifes affair and how much it is hurting you and your family. Give them the name of the scumbag who is trying to wreck their family. She can explain to the kids herself why she is putting her selfish interests before their family.

Do this all in the same day so it has a tsunami effect on the affairees.

This is how you will save your marriage. Exposure is the start of RECOVERY. While it is not a guarantee, it gives you the best chance to save it and protects your kids.

Additionally, the OM needs a visit from you in person. Cause as much trouble as possible in his stinky little life. He will likely dump your wife because she is not worth the trouble.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 10:37 PM
Thanks for posting those, SusieQ, you are awesome! smile
Posted By: TheRoad Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 10:39 PM
Do not move out of the house or bed room.

Let WW move, and without the kids.

Expose WW parents and her siblings, OMW, and your kids, do so with out warning WW.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
She wants to do this wacky thing where one of us sleeps in the office as a psuedo separation. How do I address that?

Tell her no thank you. You have no reason to go anywhere. If she wants to separate you can't stop her. The reason she is asking for this is because she wants to bring the OM in while you are gone.

I am still catching up on your thread, but is this OM married and does his wife know?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
PS - I just read a letter on planA/planB and will ask my wife to read it tomorrow.

NO, don't let her read anything from here. Don't bring her here.

Quote
I thought my wife was being open and honest with me since around this time, but as it turns out she has been continuing to remain in contact with the OM, aparently through intermittent phone conversations. Tonight she returned from a visit with our daughter to her mother�s in Florida and confessed that she had spoken with him, that it was a common occurance and that she loved me but didn�t think we could realistically ever expect to be compatible.

You are going to have to get out of there if you want this to work. You cannot hope to end this affair as long as you live right next to him. Can you rent your house out and move somewhere else?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
As it turns out, W was all the while developing an EA with the neighbor, a 30 yo (15 years her junior) who had become infatuated with her at least several months (possibly years) prior (we didn�t know that at the time). There were also other times when they were together on a �friend� basis while I was at work (no, nothing physical, I�m sure of it).

Can you explain why you are sure of this? I am not at all.
Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by optimism
As it turns out, W was all the while developing an EA with the neighbor, a 30 yo (15 years her junior) who had become infatuated with her at least several months (possibly years) prior (we didn�t know that at the time). There were also other times when they were together on a �friend� basis while I was at work (no, nothing physical, I�m sure of it).

Can you explain why you are sure of this? I am not at all.


She had a physical affair before and I'd recognize the symptoms. She would feel too guilty and let me know eventually. She has been lying about some things but I strongly suspect this is not one of them. Honestly she's not really physically attracted to him. He's not her type.
Of course if I find out I was wrong we have a whole other kettle of fish; but let's face it this is bad enough.
Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 11:17 PM
UPDATE:
I picked her up from work today and she tells me that she has told him to stop calling her. I know she did, but I don't know how long it will last. Do I still go forward with the exposure plan?? I told my son and her best friend who she is going to visit now (she's got a social work practice and is a pretty good listener). I told my sister but can't reach her father.
I also,before she told me about the phone call sent a very raucus text to OM stating "do not call my wife again, scumbag" etc.etc.
If I see him on the street, I will re-iterate the sentiment. I will also continue to "remind" him I meant it and basically make the whole think uncomfortable.
Too bad if he hits me - ...restraining order.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 11:19 PM
OP, I can assure you that you are wrong now. She is trying to get you out of the house every other night so she can bring him in. That is so they can sleep together.

If you don't believe me that they already sleeping together, take some of her panties out of the hamper after you are away at work during the day and test them for semen. here

Is the OM married?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 11:21 PM
OP, does he come in your house when you are at work? How does she communicate with him? Via landline? Cellphone? Computer?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 11:22 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
UPDATE:
I picked her up from work today and she tells me that she has told him to stop calling her. I know she did, but I don't know how long it will last. Do I still go forward with the exposure plan?? I told my son and her best friend who she is going to visit now (she's got a social work practice and is a pretty good listener). I told my sister but can't reach her father.
I also,before she told me about the phone call sent a very raucus text to OM stating "do not call my wife again, scumbag" etc.etc.
If I see him on the street, I will re-iterate the sentiment. I will also continue to "remind" him I meant it and basically make the whole think uncomfortable.
Too bad if he hits me - ...restraining order.

Your children should be told regardless - BY YOU, with no forewarning.

Is the OM married?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
I also,before she told me about the phone call sent a very raucus text to OM stating "do not call my wife again, scumbag" etc.etc.

My first thought is that she told you this BECAUSE OF your text to the OM. Even so, talk is cheap with a WS, it means nothing. WS's are liars who will say anything to protect the affair. You can't go by what she says, only by what she DOES.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 11:29 PM
ok, if the affair is really over, is she willing to send a no contact letter to the OM? TODAY? Is she willing to do what it takes to repair the marriage, starting with moving away? What is her plan?

Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 11:30 PM
No, he's not married. no kids. not much family except a couple of loser brothers who aren't around much.
Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 11:34 PM
I haven't read enough to know exactly what a "no contact letter" is (besides the obvious)? - is there a contract that goes along with this? Do I write one also?

ML
She doesn't know I texted the OM, yet.
I believe she really did tell him not to call her again. But I don't believe it will last any substantial length of time.
Posted By: catperson Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 11:47 PM
Quote
Honestly she's not really physically attracted to him. He's not her type.
Of course if I find out I was wrong we have a whole other kettle of fish; but let's face it this is bad enough.
If you had read a little more here, more threads, you'd see that people very often, if not nearly always, affair down. That means they pick people way beneath their standards.

You are harming your family to believe this.
Posted By: catperson Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 11:52 PM
Quote
She doesn't know I texted the OM, yet.
Wow, if you believe that, you are in for a WORLD of trouble. She 'called it off' EXACTLY to pacify you, so you would leave OM alone. They will now just hide it better.

Which is why you HAVE to tell your children, so they can keep an eye out for him.

Stop being so naive.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/27/09 11:57 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
ML
She doesn't know I texted the OM, yet.

huh? how do you know this? This is not believable.

Here is the no contact letter. But it will of no effect whatsoever if you live next door. She will be triggered every day she wakes up.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html


"My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent."


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX



Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/28/09 12:04 AM
I'll try Cat, I'll try.
You might be right, but I'll take some chances with that.
I've told both kids, her best friends, her father, and my sister. Her mother will call me soon.
I just told them I wanted them on board and knowing what was going on in an effort to make it more difficult to carryon.
Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/28/09 12:05 AM
I'm reading as much as I can Cat. I didn't know about the "below the standards thing" - I have to have SOME trust, but I will be wary, I promise.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/28/09 12:07 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Thanks for posting those, SusieQ, you are awesome! smile
No, thank you for the material!! I have pasted that one from bcboy's thread a few times now and I am glad you don't mind.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/28/09 12:08 AM
Originally Posted by optimism
I'll try Cat, I'll try.
You might be right, but I'll take some chances with that.
I've told both kids, her best friends, her father, and my sister. Her mother will call me soon.
I just told them I wanted them on board and knowing what was going on in an effort to make it more difficult to carryon.

OP, do these people plan on speaking to your wife? Somehow she needs to know that she has been exposed. If they don't call her, you will need to tell her.

What did you tell the kids? Do they know who the OM is? What was their response?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/28/09 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by optimism
I'm reading as much as I can Cat. I didn't know about the "below the standards thing" - I have to have SOME trust, but I will be wary, I promise.

That would be foolish to "trust" an unworthy person, OP. Trust is absolutely unwarranted and DANGEROUS here.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/28/09 12:18 AM
I would be very surprised if this hadn't turned into a PA. That's a pretty long EA to not turn PA and additionally they have had plenty of opportunity being neighbors.

The reason this should matter to you is typically the WS is more entrenched in a PA than an EA...

Please listen to what these folks are telling you. You cannot trust ANYTHING she says.
Posted By: black_raven Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/28/09 02:43 AM
Have you exposed to any of the Hs of these neighbors in this tightly knit group? I don't think most men would want this guy sniffing around their wives so maybe one or two will put the OM on high alert that he better watch his step. wink If you're lucky they will outright shun him.
Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/28/09 04:15 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by optimism
I'll try Cat, I'll try.
You might be right, but I'll take some chances with that.
I've told both kids, her best friends, her father, and my sister. Her mother will call me soon.
I just told them I wanted them on board and knowing what was going on in an effort to make it more difficult to carryon.

OP, do these people plan on speaking to your wife? Somehow she needs to know that she has been exposed. If they don't call her, you will need to tell her.

What did you tell the kids? Do they know who the OM is? What was their response?

I told my son 13 what was going on and that we were all going to try to get through the whole thing as best as possible, that he would always be safe and loved and protected. Daughter 8, a little less specific but that Mommies make mistakes and we don't judge her or love her less. I told them both it's very important for them to learn that it's not okay for a mommy or a daddy to have a special friend when their already married.
Posted By: black_raven Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/28/09 12:49 PM
What's done is done, but in any future conversations I would not say either of these things:

Originally Posted by optimism
and we don't judge her

I would have left that part out. Your children do need to judge people in life...we all need to and do. That is setting them up for some bizarre PC notion that your children should accept unacceptable behavior no matter what it is...as well as telling them to shut up about it.

Quote
I told them both it's very important for them to learn that it's not okay for a mommy or a daddy to have a special friend when their already married.

A special friend? Drop this phrase from your vocabulary when dealing with adultery. Your children have special friends like Matthew at school who has been a classmate for 7 yrs or Susie who comes over for a pajama party. POSOM is not a friend. Your kids will wonder what is wrong with special friends like Matthew and Susie when you use the same term to describe a terrorist. crazy
Posted By: TheRoad Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/28/09 01:05 PM
" it's not okay for a mommy or a daddy to have a special friend when their already married."

This is hiding the truth.

It's not okay for a mommy to have a boy friend or for a daddy to have a girl friend when they are married. Mommy has a boy friend and is going out on dates with him.

The simple truth. No graphic details.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/28/09 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
I told my son 13 what was going on and that we were all going to try to get through the whole thing as best as possible, that he would always be safe and loved and protected. Daughter 8, a little less specific but that Mommies make mistakes and we don't judge her or love her less. I told them both it's very important for them to learn that it's not okay for a mommy or a daddy to have a special friend when their already married.

optimism, did you tell them the TRUTH? I don't see the truth in any of this. Have the kids been told the TRUTH? What you say here is very confusing.
Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/28/09 07:55 PM
WOW! you guys are brutal! smile
I was trying to temper the explanation for the situation to the kids due to my belief (and I have heard this from child psychologists) that a child naturally Imbues criticized characteristics unto themselves; so I have always been careful to criticize or put down my wife to them.

But I see you're points that they need to know what REALLY happened and it's only fair to them to understand the true details of the situation.
opti
Posted By: optimism Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/28/09 09:10 PM
RE original thread:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2265374&page=1

Well, I did the intervention. I called everyone including all her family about the EA she's been carrying on; with some bad results. She didn't appreciate it one bit.
But, what's worse is that we sat down me her and my son, and started talking and she started in with "we've been having some trouble lately, and right now, I'm the one that doesn't want to be married anymore."
Well, I couldn't help myself. I piped in (in a calm logical tone) that married people have to be honest with each other and that 'your mother has not been honest with me about the affair she's been having with the neighbor." Of course a full discussion ensued including all the tears and "how could you say that to our son?" I said because it's true and he deserves to know the truth.
She continues to deny that it's an affair because it's "only an occasional conversation" but I still maintain that since it's behind my back and the text message history gets deleted, there's something being hidden.

As for the intervention "you've been calling all my friends and telling them I'm having an affair - how could you humiliate me like that? You're the cruelest person and I could never be married to you anymore." I do feel a little bit bad about it; her reputation is bad with her friends and family.

I told her she had been lying to me about being in contact with him and she stated "see, if i tell you everything, this is what happens - that's why I can't be honest!" - is this a normal type of catch 22 for the WW offending spouse?

It looks like we're heading for divorce. She hates me and will never forgive me for revealing her actions to our son. I also don't feel I can ever trust her again. She's won't admit any wrong-doing, only that the relationship was off course in the first place and has been for a long time (she just coincidentally came to that conlcusion on the OM entered the picture) She continually poo-poo's techniques like in the MB philosophy andt he only way I would ever get back to her again would be if she agreed to adhere to the principles of PJA etc.
I have a meeting scheduled with a lawyer on Tuesday. -see you on the divorce boards!

optimistic
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/28/09 09:44 PM
You might want to just attach this to the first thread to keep it all together. (You can press "Notify" and ask the Mods to do it)

Ignore her anger over exposure. They all do this. We've seen people pack their bags and leave over exposure only to return shortly thereafter. My sister also posts here and when she exposed, her H was seriously enraged for 3-4 days and repeatedly said he was "done". He eventually calmed down.

Stay on track. Keep doing your Plan A. When they are angry, that's a good thing!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/28/09 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
Well, I did the intervention. I called everyone including all her family about the EA she's been carrying on; with some bad results. She didn't appreciate it one bit.

You're kidding!!!??? She didn't appreciate your exposure of her affair?? I am IN SHOCK! I expected her to give you roses and rewards for interfering in her affair. grin

ok, EARTH TO OPTIMISM!! EARTH TO OPTIMISM!! She is supposed to get mad when you interfere with her affair. Here is what she is EXPECTED to say:

"I was going to work on our marriage, now I'm not!!!"

"I can't believe you would hurt me like that!!"

"I am calling my divorce lawyer.......on next Monday!"

GREAT JOB ON EXPOSURE!! hurray

OP, please wake up, my friend. You just took the crack pipe away from the crack head. Did you expect her to kiss you for it?

Stop sweating and don't let her get to you. Remember what the goal is here, IT IS TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE, NOT TO AVOID MAKING HER ANGRY AT ALL COSTS.

Pat the little dear on the head and say "I'm so sorry you are upset, would you like a potato chip?" smile

Don't fight with a falling down drunk. Just be polite.

And stop talking about divorce. That is nonsense.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/28/09 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
I also don't feel I can ever trust her again. She's won't admit any wrong-doing, only that the relationship was off course in the first place and has been for a long time

You don't need her admission to know it is an affair. Just continue to call it ADULTERY.

Quote
She continually poo-poo's techniques like in the MB philosophy andt he only way I would ever get back to her again would be if she agreed to adhere to the principles of PJA etc.

She won't agree to any of that now. It is useless to even try until you bust up the affair first. Stop trying to educate her!

Quote
I have a meeting scheduled with a lawyer on Tuesday. -see you on the divorce boards!

Pre-emptive surrender? Are you french?
Posted By: optimism Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/28/09 10:05 PM
si-vous-ple for the support. grin

I want to meet with a lawyer and see what my options might be if she pushes for the divorce.
She said she'll never forgive me for 'sullying her name to her son' and I think she may pursue divorce. Too bad for me - her dad has a lot of money; I might never see my kids again. My biggest fear.

I will go for a divorce if she doesn't agree to take a different approach to the marriage if we ever get through this. I will not be betrayed again.
Posted By: optimism Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/28/09 10:07 PM
She keeps saying it's not an affair, but gets SO so defensive about it and actually defends him.
Isn't that evidence of foul play???
Posted By: black_raven Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/28/09 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
I might never see my kids again. My biggest fear.

And why exactly do you believe this? think
Posted By: optimism Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/28/09 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by optimism
I might never see my kids again. My biggest fear.

And why exactly do you believe this? think

Sorry, I shouldn't be so dramatic. I've just always had the fear that I'd get the short end of the stick in this liberal state of massachusetts. (plus her dad could probably hire good lawyers).
She only works part time, I pay all the bills and spend twice as much time with them as she does (coaching, taking them to school, playing with them, etc) ; but that often doesn't matter to these nit-wit judges.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/28/09 10:21 PM
If you ever want your marriage to improve, eventually you are going to have to move to get away from OM. Why don't you get the ball rolling on that now?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/28/09 10:22 PM
sigh........settle down. They always threaten to divorce you in order to shut you up. 9 times out of 10 it is a idle threat.

She is just trying to scare you into not interfering in her affair. If she DOES sue for divorce, which is unlikely, you can countersue for adultery in many states and have the OM dragged into court!

Just pat her on the head and offer her a tater chip. smile
Posted By: black_raven Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/28/09 10:29 PM
Dramatic is the last thing you need. Be sure you aren't telling people stuff like this as it will not reflect well on you. If FIL, happens to call you tell him exactly what is going on but stick to the facts. If your FIL is a decent man he will not want some single guy making googly eyes at his DD who wants to play hide the pickle and wrecking his grandchildren's family.
Posted By: catperson Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/28/09 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
sigh........settle down. They always threaten to divorce you in order to shut you up. 9 times out of 10 it is a idle threat.

She is just trying to scare you into not interfering in her affair. If she DOES sue for divorce, which is unlikely, you can countersue for adultery in many states and have the OM dragged into court!

Just pat her on the head and offer her a tater chip. smile
I so agree.

Just calm down. She is quoting EXACTLY from the wayward handbook. We could have quoted you these EXACT same things before you exposed, because we KNOW what she'll say.

Are you keeping written records of everything she has done in the affair? Print it out, any proof you have, and keep it somewhere outside the house. You wouldn't believe how hard WSs search their homes for your 'evidence' so they can destroy it.

Oh, and go to the bank tomorrow and make sure she cannot pull money out of your joint accounts.
Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/29/09 01:38 AM
Originally Posted by jmwc95
If you ever want your marriage to improve, eventually you are going to have to move to get away from OM. Why don't you get the ball rolling on that now?


So soon? she's still in denial.
Do I call a realtor?
I figured if she ever admitted she was having an affair and then to try to save the marriage, I would let her know we have to sell the house.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/29/09 01:47 AM
op, you will have to sell your house either way. You would be better off getting it ready for sale NOW in the hopes you can move and recover your marriage.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/29/09 01:52 AM
Another option is to find another house now and rent yours out. We had another board member whose wife was having an affair with the neighbor. He simply picked up and moved into a rental house until the OM moved. Then he moved back to his house.

But your marriage won't ever recover living there next to the OM. You will both be triggered every day.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 10/29/09 02:25 AM
Move. Even if you don't stay married. How can you stay living next door to the OM?
Posted By: optimism Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/29/09 10:59 AM
Cat,
I don't really have written records. She has her own phone and is adept at deleting history of texts/calls. (I recently started checking while she's asleep).
It's been a emotional affair, I think my buddy across the street would tell me if he saw comings and goings during the day. The only real proof is her reactions to the implications and the way she refuses to renounce him or admit he's a problem. I also received a nice few paragraphs of marriage counselling from him when I texted him to tell him to stay away (this after several previous personal conversations) - the nature of his response told me that he knows way more about my relationship with my W than a 'casual acquaintance.' She also ALWAYS defends him; he has never done anything wrong - to me this is proof that he's more important to her than our family (like crack would be if she was on crack). So, without getting at phone records, I don't know of any real proof -- do you have any suggestions in this area?
-I'll stop by the bank tomorrow.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/29/09 12:04 PM
What cell phone carrier does she have? Can't you check the records online? The only one that I know of so far that does not do this is Sprint.

Also you can DL flexispy to her phone and get a record of all her texts, etc.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/29/09 12:16 PM
Quote
As it turns out, W was all the while developing an EA with the neighbor, a 30 yo (15 years her junior) who had become infatuated with her at least several months (possibly years) prior (we didn�t know that at the time). There were also other times when they were together on a �friend� basis while I was at work (no, nothing physical, I�m sure of it). In June I figured out things were not as they seemed and confronted her on her feelings toward the OM and she basically down-played it. Then on July 4 her behavior during the festivities was unmistakably inappropriate and I confronted her again- at that time she stated she �didn�t know� if she was in love with him.

OK I went back to your first thread. It sounds like your WW has a) admitted that the OM told her he was infatuated with her b) that she had feelings for him, stated that she didnt know if she was in love with him and c) you know that she emails, texts and spends time with him secretly. Is that all correct?

That's definitely enough evidence IMO. Don't let her gaslight you.

BTW what was the "unmistakeably inappropriate" July 4 behavior you referred to?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/29/09 01:10 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
Cat,
I don't really have written records. She has her own phone and is adept at deleting history of texts/calls. (I recently started checking while she's asleep).

optimism, you can download and install flexispy on her phone. Did you check out that link? You can buy the cheaper version at $149 and get the goods. If she is deleting her history then she is hiding something. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.

Do you come home during the day to see if the OM is in your home?
Posted By: optimism Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/30/09 08:33 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Quote
As it turns out, W was all the while developing an EA with the neighbor, a 30 yo (15 years her junior) who had become infatuated with her at least several months (possibly years) prior (we didn�t know that at the time). There were also other times when they were together on a �friend� basis while I was at work (no, nothing physical, I�m sure of it). In June I figured out things were not as they seemed and confronted her on her feelings toward the OM and she basically down-played it. Then on July 4 her behavior during the festivities was unmistakably inappropriate and I confronted her again- at that time she stated she �didn�t know� if she was in love with him.

OK I went back to your first thread. It sounds like your WW has a) admitted that the OM told her he was infatuated with her b) that she had feelings for him, stated that she didnt know if she was in love with him and c) you know that she emails, texts and spends time with him secretly. Is that all correct?

That's definitely enough evidence IMO. Don't let her gaslight you.

BTW what was the "unmistakeably inappropriate" July 4 behavior you referred to?

Susie,
you have that all correct. I'm not naive anymore and really don't believe anything she is saying. I implemented a pretty extensive exposure plan with some results. I will be elaborating on that soon with questions for folks who have been so helpful so far.
Her unmistakable behavior was that the cops were at his house for a loud party and she was chomping at the bit to go to try and defend him. It was all too obvious it was more than a friendship at that point. It also became clear just the way she was acting around him, especially with a couple drinks in her. When I called her our it was "Are you in love with him?" and her response "I don't know".
So began the new chapter in my life.

edited to add: the time they spent together became highly more limited at that point - she promised not to do so and I have no evidence that it did continue (prior to that he would give her a ride to work and [censored] like that), around that time I told him I didn't want him on my porch and fortunately my neighbor (older disabled former bouncer who is around a lot) has helped to re-inforce the concept.
Posted By: optimism Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/30/09 08:43 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by optimism
Cat,
I don't really have written records. She has her own phone and is adept at deleting history of texts/calls. (I recently started checking while she's asleep).

optimism, you can download and install flexispy on her phone. Did you check out that link? You can buy the cheaper version at $149 and get the goods. If she is deleting her history then she is hiding something. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.

Do you come home during the day to see if the OM is in your home?


ML,
The exposure plan implemented has had some effect - I will elaborate with some further questions for you vets. In the meantime I will consult with a lawyer on my rights when it comes to pursuing restraining orders for at least myself and my children. He's obviously never been physical, but the sanctity of my home has clearly been disrupted and I feel I should have some rights.
I also may pursue the phone software with the tactic of using it against HIM - letting him know that I will pursue harassment/stalking charges if I find out he's trying to contact her. -something else I will discuss with a lawyer, but you may have some thoughts as well.
I've come home during the day several times and found nothing. I also have a trusted neighbor who would tell me if he saw any activity. He's home most of the time.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/30/09 11:37 AM
Great job on the exposure, OM!

I agree with what the others were saying on your first thread, however, I would begin preparations to move or rent out your home. I don't really think there will be any other way...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/30/09 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
I also may pursue the phone software with the tactic of using it against HIM - letting him know that I will pursue harassment/stalking charges if I find out he's trying to contact her. -

OP, but don't let him know that you can trace this. If you tell him you have spyware on her phone, then they will be forewarned and will find a new way to communicate. They do it all the time. Cheaters are very clever about this.

Besides, you need some absolute proof and I suspect you can get it this way.
Posted By: optimism Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/30/09 09:25 PM
okay MB, thanks.

Hey guys. I am two days from the original exposure day, and I probably haven't handled everything perfectly (it's hard). I plan to post up with some details, but for now a quick question:

I have a couple people calling me who have spoken to WW and are very upset at the way I've handled the situation. Especially in regards to exposing my 13 yo son to my WW's activity. "marriage is between the parents, blah, blah, don't bring the kids into it"
--Of course my wife has been good at turning the whole thing around I'm sure, when they call 'it isn't really an affair, he's just upset that I want out of the marriage, he's making a big deal out of nothing, etc.' is what I'm sure she is saying.

(I just listen to the nay-sayers, it doesn't bother me what they think)

***Is this normal?
If there is a relapse on her part (and I suspect there will be at some point) do I still call those who don't get it in the next go-around?
Posted By: catperson Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/30/09 09:47 PM
Why don't you explain it to them?
Posted By: optimism Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/31/09 02:07 AM
I tried Cat, but that's probably one of the things I didn't do incredibly well, being fairly new to the concept. WW is a very persuasive and intelligent woman; and since she still doesn't see her activity as an EA, or the root of our marital problems, I think she basically turned the tables around.
Ultimately I'm probably just paranoid that I've alienated some folks who don't see marriage as a sacred institution that's worth fighting for - I really shouldn't care about them anyway; my wife and family are what's important. There have been some good immediate effects of the exposure; I'm just projecting that if she relapses, I'll have no credibility with the people in her life who I would consider influential; therefore any further exposure plans might be ineffective.

It's incredible and sad how cavalier people are about marriage. I feel like I'm battling against all these outside forces trying to influence her (and me) away from the marriage ("you need to look out for your happiness, etc."). Even the her own Mother seems to be in favor of separation and divorce.
Doesn't anyone see the value of working out problems and finding a way to have a successful marriage even in the face of adversity?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/31/09 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by optimism
I have a couple people calling me who have spoken to WW and are very upset at the way I've handled the situation. Especially in regards to exposing my 13 yo son to my WW's activity. "marriage is between the parents, blah, blah, don't bring the kids into it"

Tell them that adultery affects the whole family and it is not cool to lie to kids. This affair affects your son just as much as it affects you. Leading marriage psychologist, Dr. Willard Harley, founder of Marriage Builders, always recommends exposure to the kids. It is lies and adultery that poison kids, not the truth. Kids can handle the truth, they can't handle lies.

Quote
Dr. Harley on telling the children:

[quote]Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home.
___________________________________
A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.

When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.


Quote
The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.


Quote
2. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)

Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).


Quote
My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.

The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.

The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).

Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.

It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/31/09 02:39 AM
Originally Posted by optimism
Ultimately I'm probably just paranoid that I've alienated some folks who don't see marriage as a sacred institution that's worth fighting for - I really shouldn't care about them anyway; my wife and family are what's important. There have been some good immediate effects of the exposure; I'm just projecting that if she relapses, I'll have no credibility with the people in her life who I would consider influential; therefore any further exposure plans might be ineffective.

OP, you cannot control the reaction of others. Some will support you, others will throw you and your son under the bus. You will find out quickly who the friends of your marriage really are.

Even though many are not supporters of marriage, but tend to be supporters of affairs, just the fact that your wife has to explain herself to them will put pressure on her affair. It is no fun to have an affair when everyone is looking. Now, she will have to watch her step around those ppl. And many will see through her.

But you will find many family members who simply don't give a damn about your wife. They care more about being liked than helping her do the right thing. When you don't care about someone, it is much easier to say retarded things like "I just want her to be happy." [I guess we should be grateful she is not an serial killer, huh? crazy] People who don't care that she makes herself "happy" destroying her family do not care about HER.

So don't let it bother you. Keep up your exposures and don't allow yourself to be discouraged by some non-caring crapwits.

You have to do the right thing for you and your son, not seek the approval of people who don't care about your marriage anyway.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/31/09 02:42 AM
Dr Willard Harley When Should An Affair Be Exposed?
By Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr.
10.28.09


Dr Laura on telling children the truth [if you want this 1 hour MP3 clip, email me at ohmelodylane@aol.com] here
Posted By: optimism Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/31/09 02:26 PM
thanks ML, that's very helpful.
I'll check the clip when I can.
thanks for your support.

More to follow.
op
Posted By: imagine Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/31/09 03:56 PM
I doubt that the parents of WW will understand the kids betrayal.

Possibly, the revelation of MB documentation can help. Print off a couple without telling the MB source. Quote the direct sources.

Apparently, it will help to get them on your side. If you can cite the neighbors report of affection for your wife, they will see how inappropriate contact with him can be. Ask them for help to save your marriage!
Posted By: optimism Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/31/09 09:19 PM
thanks imagine, that's a good idea.
I was getting ready to simply denounce my mother in law, who I have generally had a good relationship with. That would have gone against everything I'm trying to accomplish. I'll put together some literature and send it asap. She's the preachy type, God knows I've ready plenty of stuff she's sent me!
op
Posted By: NB28 Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 10/31/09 10:26 PM
Dear Optimism, Im sorry that you find your self in this situation, have you had the "what would you have done if you were in my shoes" conversation. What if it was a female neighbour and you were deleting text from. If it wasnt an affair and nothing happened why is she insisting on holding onto him and defending him. If i was her friend i would tell her that she is fuelling the fire, if it was nothing then why not just stop it and concentrate on the family. Shes blaming u for marital problems but im sure you didnt find the marriage so peachy but that didnt make you go out and conduct yourself the way she did. When friends and family contact you regading your behaviour explain to them that you told them about whats going on in your marriage to get their help and support to keep your family not because you were trying to hurt your WW or cause pain, if they dont agree with your marriage or helping you keep your family unit intact then make it clear your not interested in their opinion. Please also point out you exposed to son (13) and not daughter (8) because son old enough to see something is up and it would make situation worse if you kept him out the loop leading to him being anxious etc. The fact that you did not expose to daughter shows you werent being vindictive otherwise you would have.
Divorce or no divorce atleast you are certain of what you feel has gone on and you have done something about it rather than just sat there waiting for more evidence while more damage was being done. Her family can say or think what they like cause at teh end of the day you can go to sleep with a clear consience that you have not betrayed your marriage, she will never be able to do that no matter how much her family beleive her cause when the lights go off at night its herself she has to deal with.
Hope she has started to calm down by now if not jsut stick with being as rational as you can and hold your ground on what you beleive.
Posted By: optimism Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 11/01/09 03:37 AM
BH28,
thanks for your attention. I read your post and I also just read a "notable thread" at the top of this board.
With all this I feel I may have made a grave error and I need your and other's advice on how to get out of the corner I've painted myself into.

I believe I've been "gaslighted" to some extent.

While I truly believe from all the evidence I've gathered (including neighbors and general logical conclusions drawn) that my wife's affair is not physical, it has ALL the symptoms of an affair including: "we're just friends, there's no romantic intent, you're making a big deal out of nothing" meanwhile "I have not been happy in the marriage for years, we're not soul-mates, I just want to be happy." The change of heart happened EXACTLY when OM started being a more frequent visitor.

Here's how I was gas-lighted:
The day after the exposure, wife called while I was at work and talking all reasonable. All her friends had been calling her all day, family, neighbors, saying "your H is saying you're having an affair" (I had explained she was having an EA and she needed their help). She asked me to please stop telling everyone she was having an affair. I responded with:

"if you promise to stop having an affair, I'll stop telling everyone about it." She did and I did.

I believe now that may have been a big mistake. There are others who I would have like to have included, but now I feel like if I do, I'll be betraying my own word. I feel like I played a card before I had to. I also feel that by agreeing to "stop making a big deal about it" I took away my own ability to apply pressure, or in other words, allow the elephant in the living room to become invisible again.

I've been implementing the carrot part of plan A to a T. Relaxed behavior, providing a comfortable home environment, etc. I have also spoken to a cop/laywer friend (nice combo of professions, huh?) who says there's not much I can do from a legal standpoint from the OM's part of it, but he's aware and will support me in the future if I need it.

I live in awesome fear that she will relapse and am almost convinced he will call her or text her in the next two weeks and she will, if not answer directly, be sucked back in just enough to wreck the progress I'm making with plan A. And I'm afraid it will be my fault because I agreed to take the pressure off.

encouragement? advice?

--Optimism


Posted By: optimism Revealing past affairs - 11/01/09 05:00 AM
I'm in the middle (beginning stages) of a plan A/exposure of my WW's EA that was essentially discovered in July (finally exposed in October (28th) due to my lack of knowledge of MB concepts, and that I though she was practicing NC prior to that).

As I have been reading MB books and articles on this website, I have come to the realization that at some point I'm going to need to reveal my past infidelities to my wife (the last of such was in 2002). FWIW: one involved a two week fling with intercourse, the others one-night make-out sessions.

We're taking part in counseling sessions with a pretty good psychologist. During one of these sessions, I'm thinking of reading a confession letter that I wrote to her.

Should I do it this week or wait until the initial shock of the recent exposure has worn off?

I don't think there is a "good" time for something like this. I'm deathly afraid that the timing might trigger a total retaliatory reaction with the OM.

Thoughts?
Please tell me what to expect. My wife is currently still somewhat resentful that I revealed her EA (which she continues to deny as a "friendship" but has promised to end) including to our son (13).
How do betrayed spouses usually respond to affairs from years ago? (I know enough to know it will seem as fresh as yesterday to her)

I don't consider this marital suicide. I just know that there is a chance of divorce in my future. I can't bear the thought of knowing that my wife might wind up divorcing someone who she never really knew 100%. And of course if we save the marriage, I want her to know who she's really married to.

I haven't researched this much on the site. please forgive me/direct me if there is info that could be beneficial.

Optimism
Posted By: writer1 Re: Revealing past affairs - 11/01/09 06:45 AM
It's late and I'm tired, but my first reaction is - eek. Yes, everything is going to seem fresh to her, as though it just happened yesterday. To her, it literally did, because she didn't know about it before. And, her hurt and anger will be compounded by the fact that you have been lying to her about all of this for years. It will seem as though your entire life together from the time of the A's until the present was a lie, because essentially, it was. There were things going on in her life that she had no knowledge of. It will make her wonder if every memory she has of your life together was false. It's an ugly, terrible situation. A's are bad enough, but the lies make them so much worse.

It took my H years to come clean about everything to me. The lies were so much worse than his actions, because they made me wonder if I could ever trust anything he said again. I still wonder sometimes. We are in R, and I really do believe that my H is being honest with me now, but those old doubts still come back sometimes, because I was lied to for so long (10 years).

It's good that you have finally decided to come clean, but you should be prepared for the very long road you have ahead of you.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Revealing past affairs - 11/01/09 12:52 PM
I really think the sooner you tell her the better. The longer it goes urevealed,the harder it will be, and the more it will color her view of your current situation later.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Revealing past affairs - 11/01/09 01:47 PM
Yes, tell.

"We're taking part in counseling sessions with a pretty good psychologist."

The best place to do it. Give the shrink a heads up before you do it.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Revealing past affairs - 11/01/09 02:10 PM
The sooner the better. Your past infidelities have harmed your marriage in ways you can't even imagine. It has prevented you from ever building a true intimacy in your marriage.
Posted By: optimism Re: Revealing past affairs - 11/01/09 02:18 PM
I can't spend much time here right now, but thanks everyone for your responses so far.
Op
Posted By: imagine Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 11/01/09 03:45 PM
Normally exposure is an atomic explosion. Keep your word if you promised it. Snoop. If she breaks her word, the exposure continues.

Exposure includes keyloggers, VA taping in her car and access to her blackberry.

In the mean time be airy, no relationship talk. Meet her EN'S and NO lovebusters. Read the articles on how not to be argumentative.
Posted By: bjs Re: Revealing past affairs - 11/01/09 06:04 PM
Something to think about.

I'm sure somewhere your wife may have thought something was off with your marriage. Maybe she could never quite put her finger on it but she knew there was something. Maybe she asked you about it maybe she didn't.

However because of the secrets you were keeping, you probably put up some type of wall that blocked a true intimacy with your wife. You kept her at hands length away.

I'm not excusing her EA not at all however because of this it might have helped contribute to the EA without her ever knowing it.

When we hide something in our marriage and especially affairs that are kept secret we are building walls up in our marriage that continue to be built regardless of the time that goes by.

The two of you cannot build a marriage, or true intimacy when you have the secret of affairs in your past. There will always be that secret, there will always be something missing. You marriage cannot truly recover.

I hope you do tell her, and yes there will be consequences that will have to be dealt with. However if you truly want to recover your marriage to the fullest potential possible then you need to tell her.
Posted By: optimism Re: Revealing past affairs - 11/02/09 01:05 PM
thanks bjs. I have now come to realize you're totally right. I always wondered why she never asked about any infelities I might have had. I believe it may be because 8 years ago she had a physical affair and we got through it, but I think she always may have felt like she didn't have the right to ask after that. I also felt that way, unfortunately (how stupid I was). And all these years since (7 since the last encounter) I've told myself the experiences had no real affect on our marriage. Again how wrong I was.
That she felt she could never ask (if that's the case - something we'll need to discuss with therapy), probably has contributed to her feeling like she's been improsoned to some extent by this marriage.
op
Posted By: optimism Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 11/02/09 01:09 PM
sorry imagine, I'm not sure what keyloggers and va taping are. I'll google it. I know of the phone spy software and am considering it (my phone isn't the right kind...)
I'm definitely NOT being argumentative and keeping up with the carrot part of plan A; are there specific articles you wouldn't mind linking?
opt
Posted By: imagine Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 11/02/09 03:45 PM
A keylogger is a software device that will recall all the detailo on the computer. Eg Spectrapro. A VA tape is a voice activated tape that responds to a person speaking. Good for the car or where she speaks most on a cell.

Read Spying 101 in the NOTES column of the first section.

Posted By: optimism Re: Update to "new poster and the EA" - 11/02/09 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by imagine
A keylogger is a software device that will recall all the detailo on the computer. Eg Spectrapro. A VA tape is a voice activated tape that responds to a person speaking. Good for the car or where she speaks most on a cell.

Read Spying 101 in the NOTES column of the first section.


Okay, I get it. Thanks imagine. the va tape would be a good place to start for the home and I made think I have figured out a way to access phone records on her cell which she pays for herself (imagine that! - a change which occured over the summer; previously she was on a plan with her father. She says it's too expensive to add a line to my phone.............)

good grief.
Posted By: optimism Re: Revealing past affairs - 11/02/09 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by writer1
It's late and I'm tired, but my first reaction is - eek. Yes, everything is going to seem fresh to her, as though it just happened yesterday. To her, it literally did, because she didn't know about it before. And, her hurt and anger will be compounded by the fact that you have been lying to her about all of this for years. It will seem as though your entire life together from the time of the A's until the present was a lie, because essentially, it was. There were things going on in her life that she had no knowledge of. It will make her wonder if every memory she has of your life together was false. It's an ugly, terrible situation. A's are bad enough, but the lies make them so much worse.

It took my H years to come clean about everything to me. The lies were so much worse than his actions, because they made me wonder if I could ever trust anything he said again. I still wonder sometimes. We are in R, and I really do believe that my H is being honest with me now, but those old doubts still come back sometimes, because I was lied to for so long (10 years).

It's good that you have finally decided to come clean, but you should be prepared for the very long road you have ahead of you.


writer, I know you're right. but I have to tell you I'm so fearful I'm almost paralyzed. We're so on the brink right now with her having "separated from me emotionally" and the EA going on which she continues to refuse to acknowledge and me having just exposed it to most of her friends and family. I'm in the process of develping snooping tactics, and plan A.
There's SO MUCH going on right now, I KNOW the sooner the better and I KNOW I have to add this to the pile, this week if we can get a therapy session.
I need some support.
Somebody please convince me everything will eventually be okay. I really want my wife to know who I am, I love her and she deserves to know. Right now I'm so scared I can barely function.

optimism
Dude, you need to move your family. Preferably to another state. Continuing exposure to the other man will keep her from ever being able to recover. As a next-door-neighbor, it's inevitable, and this affair will keep sizzling until your marriage is burned to a crisp.

That said, you can't make such a decision unilaterally... that kind of life-change has to have her on board. While she's still wayward, that ain't gonna happen.
I have recently completed a fairly effective exsposure of my WW's EA, although my execution wasn't flawless. I did my best and am learnign as I go (with help from previous posts and lots of support here).

A question in my mind that may also help others:
I know that "I need space" is 'code' for "I want (or need time) to pursue the affair." And I am seeing from my research here that WSes often exhibit very familiar and identiclal behavior.
What is "please stop making a big deal about my friendship with (name of OP here)" code for???
And question two: How does the BS handle this question? Would further questioning be perceived as lovebusting and perhaps push the WW further away/towards OP? Is it okay to periodically check in with WW re: "have you had any contact?" (I'll know if she's lying at this point)- or is snooping the best approach?
Relevent: I am currently executing a plan A and WW has agreed to NC (which I'm almost certain she will relapse with).

opt
"Please stop making a big deal about my friendship with OP!" == "I think you are overreacting to my infidelity."

It's just "fogese". Blather. It's illogic designed to defend the affair. You are making it uncomfortable for her to continue to pursue her affair; your interference is working.

Avoid relationship talk for several weeks. Do a stellar Plan A. See if you can get her buy-in to read Love Busters together: one chapter a week. When you reach the "Independent Behavior" and "Dishonesty" chapters, you're both going to have a hell of a wake-up call.

EDIT: Google the term "gaslighting". Any time she tries to make the affair or the consequences of the affair your fault... she's gaslighting. I'm guessing that the "please stop making such a big deal about my friendship" is in some sort of conversation in which she says something like "we'd be fine if you weren't making a big deal about my friend". Yep, just a classic Gaslighting line: she wants you to think your marriage problems are a result of your "overreaction" to her friendship, or totally unrelated to the "friendship". Anything to preserve the fantasy-land endorphin-rush she gets when she's with her affair partner.

This EA is what is doing damage to your marriage. Learn to avoid Love Busters: no angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, or selfish demands. Meet her emotional needs. You BOTH have work to do on yourselves to improve and affair-proof your marriage, but that EA needs to be over and done with before recovery can really get rolling.
Opt,

It's best if you stick to one thread. It helps those that are helping you if you keep all your facts and questions in one thread so we are looking everywhere figuring out your story. If you have a new question or an emergency that you want immediate help on then you can change your threads title. Just hit "notify" on the bottom and the mods will change it to what you want. In fact, you should notify th now and ask them to combine the two threads you have going......

As far as the question, it ALL means " please leaver alone while I roll around int cake".....aka....FOGBABBLE

not2fun
Wayward Speak

Reverse fog babble

Gg
Originally Posted by not2fun
Opt,

It's best if you stick to one thread. It helps those that are helping you if you keep all your facts and questions in one thread so we are looking everywhere figuring out your story. If you have a new question or an emergency that you want immediate help on then you can change your threads title. Just hit "notify" on the bottom and the mods will change it to what you want. In fact, you should notify th now and ask them to combine the two threads you have going......

As far as the question, it ALL means " please leaver alone while I roll around int cake".....aka....FOGBABBLE

not2fun


-No problem N2F. Sorry about that. I didn't realize how things happen here. I will ask the moderators to combine a couple of threads (I actually have 4 going; all at least loosely related).

thanks for the advice.
opt
Threads have been merged.
Okay it's been about a week since the exposure (and essentially implementation of plan A). What an emotional roller coaster. How to stay grounded?
I'm still hearing Wayward Fog Babble, but I don't try to challenge anything at this point. The stick of plan A advises "not apologizing for the exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way."
Does this mean I bring up the "truth" (i.e. the EA) when it seems appropriate, or am I staying away from it unless she brings it up?
"Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused."
I'm not sure in what context this should be brought up either...

Sorry for the rudimentary questions. I am waiting for my "Surviving an Affair" book ordered last week.

opt
Oh, I forgot to ask this also:
I am expecting to encounter another episode of violation of the NC agreement; there has already been one initiated by the OM, which my WW 'shut down' according to trusted neighbors (she was giving out candy at Halloween and he walked up to initiate a conversation).
---How can I prepare for my next action if and when the violation occurs?
I assume I'm going to run another Exposure. Of course this time I'll be prepared with a full list of individuals.
--Is it good to write an "Exposure letter" and send it to family members/friends? ( I don't like email for this I thought more of snail mail)

Where am I going wrong here?
Don't bring anything up. Just Plan A. Be amazing! Any second she may open her eyes, look around, and realize she's married, and take a new look at you. Make sure it's a great view.

Part of Plan A is to continue to make the A untenable. If I were you, I'd be making a visit to OM to remind him to keep hisself to his own side of the street, so to speak.

Have you exposed to HIS family?
I have not exposed to His family. He is single and I know who his dad and grandfather are, but not sure how to get ahold of them.

Had a therapy session tonight in which we both recounted for the therapist what has transpired in the last few months. Including the Exposure. All this brought my WW to a new boiling point and after the session I heard some new Wayward Fog Babble:
"Seriously, if you had just left this alone and not treated me like your PROPERTY it would have died out on it's own"
"You have to let it go"
"I'm not the traditional type and have never been, I have male friends."
Somebody tell me if these are new and please give me strength/resolve to continue that I'm doing the right thing by insisting that her friendship with someone who has romantic and lustful feelings for her is wrong and I have to do what I can to stop it.

op
Originally Posted by catperson
If I were you, I'd be making a visit to OM to remind him to keep hisself to his own side of the street, so to speak.


--I plan to speak with a lawyer on Saturday about filing a civil restraining order. I think that might make a point.
opt
Originally Posted by optimism
"Seriously, if you had just left this alone and not treated me like your PROPERTY it would have died out on it's own"
"You have to let it go"
"I'm not the traditional type and have never been, I have male friends

Nope, not new. Heck they aren't even original, as #1 (take out the property part) and #2 were some of H's fav's.

Did you come clean about your affairs last night?

Have you read SAA yet?

If you know OM's family members' names, you can find their contacts online. Or ask other neighbors if they know. In fact, tell all the neighbors that you're going to get hold of his relatives!

You HAVE to expose to his side! Today!
Hi guys and thanks for responding to my posts.
SAA should be here tonight, if not I go to the bookstore on Sat.
It�s been slowing down a little but I�m not get
ting complacent. It just seems like there�s so much to do and I feel like I want it all to be over so quickly but I know that�s not how it works. Reading almost all of bcboy�s thread (similar situation to mine- and thanks for the suggestion), I can see these things take time to develop; AND it�s my understanding that time is on my side because time can help the chemicals in her brain (i.e. �fog�) to lift (as long as no contact stays no contact). But I digress�


I have not addressed my past infidelities to my WW at this time. I have worked through some of it personally with clergy and a close family member; trying to come to grips with it. I had given our therapist the heads up that it would come up in our next session, but I really wasn�t ready to go there. I know my wife and I think she needs to feel like she�s in a safer place before I divulge it. I anticipate after plan A has taken more effect, NC has been in place for more time, and a couple more therapy sessions. I could feel our counselor trying to work towards it (e.g. �trust� issues, etc) to open the door, but it just didn�t feel right, not yet.

What we did talk about for some time was our definition of this relationship she�s having with OM. True to form, her characterization took about 10 minutes to explain. Right out of the WW handbook, from what I�ve been reading here. Ultimately the words �inappropriate, emotional, and relationship� all came out, although not necessarily in that order.

When I defined the relationship to the therapist as �adultery, secretive, and destructive� (I gave a synopsis from April to today) and said that �proper measures had yet to be taken to eliminate further contact,� and that she had �left the door open,� I made a good point with her, she recoiled, things got a little heated and the therapist changed the subject. Afterwards it seems things began to sink in and all the emotions from the exposure came out on the way home. She got all in my face. She said you have to �let it go� and I said �I�ll let it go when it�s all gone.� I didn�t let any of her fogbabble bother me (thank you MB website!!!!!). She then left for a friend�s house shortly after (it wasn�t him, I checked all my sources) and stayed there till 2.

I�ve been making a warm home for her and being available. Something I will continue to do forever, she�s actually pretty fun to be around; when she snuggled with me on the couch last night it was like I was back in highschool!

But I know the stick part of plan A also has to stay in effect. So, this w/e I will be confronting OM again in person. I also want to try to get into the subject of how to get her on to my phone plan with shared phone records. I know the cell phone is an instrument of destruction when it comes to infidelity (it certainly helped me in MY affairs!). Not sure if we�ve reached that point or if this would be considered a huge LB right now.
ADVICE on the phone thing (I admit I still don�t have a full grasp of all the MB concepts)? Any other advice would also be welcomed as well.
Thanks MB posters. We (I) have a lot of work to do, but I could have never made it in the last two weeks without you.

Opt.



Posted By: optimism Another development: EA story - 11/06/09 08:22 PM
whoa! just when I was getting hopeful...
I had a conversation with my MIL earlier in the week. She had been included in the exposure. In that conversation she was demonstrating signs of having been gaslighted (although I really didn't know about the concept at the time). She was holding onto the belief that the EA my WW's been having has had no impact on our relationsip and that her daughter has been unhappy for a "long time." I was very upset and had been developing a sense that I really wanted to start surrounding myself with allies in the war against this infidelity situation.
So, I wrote her a letter. Snail Mail.
I asked her to support our marriage and, probably unwisely, stated that I was considering anyone who wasn't in support to be an enemy. I explained that her daughter was exhibiting every textbook symptom of a person having an affair and I needed her help if we were to save the marriage.
Evidently it didn't go over very well.
Her voicemail had me accusing her of not being in support of the marriage and "I can't believe that, I've been telling you to go to counselling....now I'm wondering if that was good advice based on this behavior"
My wife says her Mother is now "very nervous" and this is just another example of my [independent activity], which has been a problem for me in this marriage. I really got the impression she was mostly upset that I continue to speak in direct terms about her relationship with the OM. It's kinda like I was doing an extended exposure (an exposure after the exposure, so to speak), but at the same time hoping to get some support (I also explained that I wanted the marriage to work and I wanted her daugter to be happy).

Where did I go wrong?
Or is this normal- stick to plan A.

optimism
Posted By: optimism Dragon Slain? -EA story - 11/09/09 02:35 AM
Re: above - MIL seems to have calmed down, anyway, I'm focussing on my marriage.
Here's the amazing revelation from the weekend. It seems that WW has developed an averstion for OM. Not the kind of emotion-filled aversion that you don't want, but real lack of feeling. I think I know her well enough to know that she's not lying. He made a couple fo real stupid moves last week and I think spelled his own demise with her. She has no real tolerance for certain behavior and according to her, she has completely cut off from him emotionally. I think this might be an uncommon situation, since it's only been less than a couple of weeks since the exposure (which really shook her up); but truthfully, I'm now convinced that she wasn't as attached to her as I had suspected (something she had been trying to tell convince me of for a while). It seems he was so persistant (and predatory) that she was trying to extricate herself from the situation but he would manage to weasle his way back in after some time. I think with the exposure, this will not happen on the next go-around. I will continue to be diligent, but at this time I think the EA might be behind us.
Here's my question:
Let's assume the NC stays in effect and she really is done with the OM...
Is it reasonable to expect her to continue to keep me at arm's length? I think she's still pretty resentful about the exposure (I refuse to apologize as she put us in the situation with the EA).
She is still latched onto the separation/divorce eventuality. Is this normal and perhaps a way to save face? (ie "see, the OM's gone and I'm still not in love with you, it was just like I said - nothing to do with the OM in the first place")
--still waiting for my copy of SAA, not sure what to expect here--
Plan: continue with Plan A.
thanks for any input.
OPtimism
Posted By: catperson Re: Dragon Slain? -EA story - 11/09/09 04:25 PM
Yeah, afraid so. I equate women with cats and men with dogs. Dogs, you can hurt them, and they'll still come back with tails wagging. Hurt a cat, and she'll be wary of you for a looooong time before trusting you again.

You'd better plan on Plan A for at least 6 more months, if not 12. She has to trust you to be what will take care of her and her needs.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Dragon Slain? -EA story - 11/09/09 04:45 PM
Opt, any progress you make in R will be dashed once you tell your WW the truth. I think your square one should be telling her about your A.
Posted By: catperson Re: Dragon Slain? -EA story - 11/09/09 07:55 PM
Heck yeah!
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Dragon Slain? -EA story - 11/09/09 08:38 PM
Just curious -- during the course of your exposure, did you mention to ANY of your targets about her previous physical affair? Or had it been previously exposed?

While yours stayed safely hidden?

Because if that is the case (and even if you have only exposed the recent EA) you should expect MASSIVE ANGER -- and rightly so.
How freaking hypocritical of you to expose her, ruin her reputation and turn everyone against her....

This happened to me too and I have never forgiven my XH for hiding his affair from me for all those years....

She is rather right to feel manipulated and like property -- thats how you've treated her. You never gave her the true choice of remaining married or told her the truth of the state of your marriage. You hid it from her and kept her in place with lies. Lies of omission too. But now SHE has to tow the line and jump into place etc. because YOU want her to.

I suggest you wait to tell her after you've consulted with a professional, because I don't see this going good at all.



Posted By: Lexxxy Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 11/09/09 10:49 PM
Quote
We have not had a great marriage ever (not terrible but not great. And we�ve provided a safe, sane environment for the kids now 13 and 8). We have both had affairs in our past, we have multiple times tried to piece things together. I totally recognize my role in all this- I�ve been selfish, critical, unaccepting of this beautiful woman. She has not been honest with me over the years, often due to the way I would react when she was. I understand I�m not the only victim. I�ve never allowed her to thrive and I finally came to that realization about a month ago, when I made a commitment to be a better person.
It�s questionable if our marriage was built on a strong foundation - we essentially married due to a pregancy, then had another; but have always tried to rise above our discontent with counselling at various times and reading other books, etc.


Can you expand on the history some more?

When was her prior PA? provide more details on when, how long, how it ended, what you did to recover...

How many affairs have you had? You said the last was in 2002. Again, how did it end, what did you do to recover? I assume she has no knowledge of it. How many ONS's?

So you are aware of her prior PA and current EA -- but she has no knowledge of your prior PA's?

And yet you have exposed her affair (s?) to friends and family. It seems to me at the very least you should have exposed yours as well. How fair is it to present her dirty laundry to the world while you keep yours hidden?

I really think your exposure was ill-advised until you found a way to address the ENTIRE issue of infidelity in your marriage.


Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 11/10/09 03:48 AM
OMG you guys are so right.
I have felt some sense of that and it�s probably why I actually have felt compelled to drag my past out of the closet the last week or so. Fact is several people who I exposed to including family members and one neighbor have been informed in a vague way that I too have not been entirely faithful and that WW and I would be working through those issues as we moved forward. I have spoken to a member of clergy about it. I talked with my highly Catholic Mom about it. Our counselor knows but not the details. I�m trying to come to grips with it. But point taken: my infidelity has not been addressed to WW, and it wasn�t fair for me to expose her with my past. I just didn�t know, in the state I was in. I rushed into the exposure a little half-cocked (as mentioned I made several other errors in execution). And the reason we didn�t get to it last therapy session was because that was more all about the EA and there�s only so much time in a session. I figured what�s another week or two after 8 years of something that was completely buried? I, like many WS�s (especially men, just out for sex) didn�t realize the destructive nature of an affair until all this, and reading material here and Harley�s books. My 2 wk affair ended luckily with OW moving to another state after declaring herself done with it (she was single and changed jobs).
I never had another because it wasn't really all that fun; sneaking around and everything. For the record my wife does know that I have had episodes of indiscretion in the past. Just not everything. Also, what would you all make of the fact that she has never asked me about my fidelity? I�ve never outright lied about my affairs; except that not telling her was lying.
Her original PA ended with an unwanted pregnancy and ultimately the birth of our DD (8). I adopted her officially. The only thing she doesn�t have is my genes which I make up for with all of the love in my heart.
I believe that my PA (*and 4 ONS's ending in GN kiss, which all basically served as a build up to the PA involving intercourse) was some sort of sick reaction to her PA. And no, I don�t think her PA was ever really addressed properly with therapy � she has stated recently that she has carried around a lot of guilt after that episode (unfortunately, because I forgave her before DD was even born).
I totally see that all the plan A progress will probably be undone with my D-day (if that�s how you say it). However, what was worrying me more was that it would be another reason for her to check out of the marriage while she was still in her fog (and a push toward the OM, kinda like a massive LB). This continues to concern me. We have a session planned in two days. I wanted to get into several of the OTHER contributions I�ve had in putting her in a position to go astray (like DJ�s, and IB�s, not fostering trust). I was hoping to try to build back some of her confidence, let her know that I think we could have an awesome marriage. Eliminate my LB's and really develop better habits of acceptance, at least for a week or so. And then reveal my sordid past.
I guess that�s not what you all are suggesting?

(not so much) Optimism



Posted By: catperson Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 11/10/09 04:49 AM
Yeah, that'll go over great. Not.

You know what works? Complete and utter humility and begging for forgiveness.
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 11/10/09 05:33 PM
Quote
Eliminate my LB's and really develop better habits of acceptance, at least for a week or so. And then reveal my sordid past.


A week? You think a week should take care of it?
You have a lengthy history of a messed up relationship, and you think a WEEK should do it????

Opt...you need the Harley's....badly.

I think it was a HUGE miscalculation to expose and embarass your wife like you did.

I really don't like that you have secrets and a hidden affair, but I have to warn you that if you reveal this any time soon, while she is still angry about the exposure -- I think you will put your marriage in serious jeapardy.

And you have a serious problem with timing. This is NOT something that can be fixed in a week or two. Being a decent husband for a couple weeks, after being a crappy one for YEARS isn't going to do the trick.

I think your wife is disengaged. I think she's likely been in withdrawal from you for years -- which is why she doesn't ask about your fidelity....and possibly why she was vulnerable to another affair.

Let me ask you a question.

Why is fidelity important to you now?


Posted By: Pepperband Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 11/10/09 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by Lexxxy
Why is fidelity important to you now?

BEST question to ask any wayward !
Good one Lexxxxxx
Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 11/10/09 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by Lexxxy
Quote
Eliminate my LB's and really develop better habits of acceptance, at least for a week or so. And then reveal my sordid past.


A week? You think a week should take care of it?
You have a lengthy history of a messed up relationship, and you think a WEEK should do it????


Lex, I didn't mean I was only going to put effort forth for a week. I am talking about waiting a week or so to regain some footing after the events of the last couple of weeks, and then get into the subject of past acts.

I will contemplate your question, but at this time I can say this, fidelity was always important to me. We've been totally true to each other for 8 years, people make mistakes. Things were going fine until OM stepped into the picture in April. Sure, we didn't have a Harley relationship with all the components in every chapter; not many take the time to familiarize themselves with these concepts until things go awry (am I correct?).

Lex, I'm very interested in your point of view. I feel that I may be stirring up so mch anger in you that you're trying to beat me up instead of offering some constructive suggestions about how to proceed. Of course I've made miscalculations, you think I haven't been scared that my whole family is crumbling under my feet? Sure, I've acted out of panic and desparation. My wife was taken over by a body-snatcher all summer and hasn't even been herself. I'm trying to piece as much information together from this website and books as I can and things are happenning so fast, but yet painfully slow at the same time.

I know I've made mistakes, but I've also been a good husband overall. I want to make a fantastic marriage to replace the one that we've had. I think it can be done with the guidance here and the approach of MB & lots of therapy and continued introspection/ habit changes. I really am working hard here and I love my wife more than anything.

I will start with "complete and utter humility and begging for forgiveness." Any further recommendations would be entirely welcomed.

thanks, Opt
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 11/10/09 09:05 PM
Opt --


What I am trying to tell you is that a week will do absolutely nothing for you.

I do relate to your situation...because I experienced something very similar. My XH was desperate to stop my affair. I was a classic fence-sitter and did not want to make any drastic decisions. I didn't want him....but I wasn't ready to let go of my family. Things were fading with OM, but I also truly hadn't been happy in my marriage for a long long time. I never did end up with OM. I ended the affair. And I ended my marriage.

I will tell you that the moment my XH told me about his infidelity I was DONE. So many things fell into place for me at that moment.
All of his independent behavior, hmmm...made sense...
His inability to gain true emotional intimacy with me, aha...made sense...
His holding back....made sense.

Its funny too that all of my memories about my affair are so foggy -- I have no clear memories of dates, times, discussions. Everything is kinda hazy and unclear. But I remember in sharp clear detail the moment that I found out I had been been betrayed.

His revelation simply solidified for me the decision that we should divorce. Because I was completely withdrawn from him. His confession did not endear him to me, it infuriated me.

Why couldn't he have had the balls to admit all of that to me before I had completely self-destructed myself with the affair?
His lies meant that I had built my whole family on faulty information. I deserved the TRUTH of my life. I spent almost 20 years building a life based on lies. How do you forgive that?

And his decision to withhold that was so very selfish.
And really? He's going to lecture me about what is "right" or "wrong"??? Pretty hypocritical don't you think?

And that is where you are. From what moral position do you think you have the right to tell her that what she is doing is wrong?

So how do you untangle that Opt? Of course affairs are wrong. But who are you to lecture her about that?
And if you tell her what you've done, I fear and suspect that it might be the straw...ya know?

I don't think she is engaged in your marriage. I don't think she is committed. I fear that you telling her might have the same impact it had on me.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 11/10/09 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
Any further recommendations would be entirely welcomed.

thanks, Opt
I think Lexxy was the one who recommended it first, but please please call the Harleys.
Posted By: optimism Re: New Poster. The EA strikes. - 11/16/09 10:39 PM
Lexxxy (and others),
Thanks for your interest and assistance. I understand what you were saying now. And thanks again for your honesty.
It seems like there are a lot of similarities here and I appreciate your input. It�s very possible that WW has been checking out of the marriage for some time and the EA was just the last symptom of that. I hope not, but as this whole thing has forced tremendous self reflection and introspection, I can see that I have not been an ideal husband. I�ve made these feelings explicitly clear to my wife. I�ve also become very convinced that the bad habits (LBs, etc) I developed were not part of my actual character and that they can be replaced with positive actions based on compassion, consideration, selflessness. These are the ideals I would like to model for my children anyway, and to be perfectly honest, I like being nice. I�ve had a tendency to do so in the past, but it was often short-lived because (I think) of the issues that have come up for us, ranging from allowing the children to usurp our time to our issues with intimacy (all things to address as we move forward).

Anyway, with ALL of your encouragement (and against EVERYONE else�s), D-day for me was 11/11.
I took the advice of waiting for a night when we had a counseling session scheduled but I didn�t wait till the session itself as I didn�t want her to feel ambushed. I then approached the whole thing with the utmost humility. I told her I never meant to hurt her and that there was no excuse for my actions and that what I did was wrong in every sense of the word. I said I didn�t expect her to forgive me. I told her everything.
Her immediate reaction shocked me a little. She was actually very surprised, but also very understanding. She definitely took the whole thing into perspective and acknowledged that if anything like that were to happen, then would have been the time. In our therapy session just after she announced that it was like we were at �square one.�

I believe staying off my high horse in regards to her affair may have been helpful. I have never made her feel guilty, only tried to let her know how much the situation hurt me and our family. I exposed, but I think I did so in the most respectful way possible.

Since then there have been some minor vacillations and she definitely hasn�t jumped back into the marriage; I don�t expect it. I don�t really even want it. I would like to have time to prove to her and myself that I can provide for her the type of home she wants; to meet her emotional needs and become the lovers we never really were. This may take years. I may fail. But I�m not a quitter and this is the most important thing I�ve ever done in my life.

I expect there will be days when she does feel like you Lexxx, thinking that she was married to a stranger for 8 years; someone who kept a secret from her. She says (and has repeated) that she�s not resentful. However, this may indeed wind up being the straw that broke the camel�s back. But it was well worth the risk. I can see now that marriage has to be built on complete and total honesty, without it, that seed of holding something back leads to other issues without our even knowing it.

Now, it�s on with Plan A. Continued therapy. More reading. And �call the Harley�s.� Do I do that on my own? Right now, I don�t think she�s up for it. NC has only really gone on for a week. She�s still pretty withdrawn, and obviously probably not sure if she about me; (of course I don�t blame her, I just pray I can win back her trust). Or should I wait and see if she ever comes around to the point of wanting to take this approach with me?

Optimism

ps. Could someone tell me if my profile is presented correctly?
Posted By: optimism Quick Plan A question. - 11/20/09 05:33 PM
I'm executing a pretty good Plan A. NO LB's, being "stellar" and providing a safe environment for my Wife. (more details on developments to the EA Story, when I get a chance, and thanks so much to everyone who has taken an interest and guided me thusfar).

Quick question:
I have an appointment with a physchologist on Monday to talk about either anti-depressants and/or sleep meds due to the anxiety I have whenever I'm away from her (mind races with thoughts of her infidelity).
DO I TELL WW?
I DO NOT WANT TO APPEAR WEAK.
Although I've read that AD's are okay during this period, I also I'm trying to (and basically succeeding) to portray myself as confident and someone my wife will want to be with.

IB is a LB, is this IB? how to approach this one.

thanks for any input!

optimism
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Quick Plan A question. - 11/20/09 05:43 PM
Yes, with the exception of snooping, I don't think you should hide anything from her.

How has your W been handling your revelation of your past A? Did you end up calling the Harleys?
Posted By: optimism Re: Quick Plan A question. - 11/20/09 10:38 PM
Susie,
Thanks for your response. Okay, I'll just be honest with everything except the snooping. That's good.

It's hard for me to answer your question about how she's handling my A. On the outside, she has not acted any different than I would expect her to at this time (even without the D-day). She has not brought it up except once when she said she had a temptation to try to visualize the whole thing, but that was not helpful for her, so she stopped (I'm assuming sharing details with her is not recommended; I let it drop, but I did tell her that the whole thing was pretty unfulfilling [and it was], and also that I had gone through some legitimate withdrawal after NC for a couple of weeks - I'm not trying to "educate her" but I think she doesn't understand the depression she's going through as her NC had been about 8 days at that point.)
To be frank, I think right now the issues she's concerned with about me run deeper than my A (not that it might not resurface in the future). Stuff like our intimacy issues, if we're "really suited to be together," and general fog-related questions.

I think she's still resentful about the exposure. It's hard to tell, because she actually admitted last week (after my d-day with her) that it helped. She is a very prideful person, however. I can count on on hand the number of times she's apologized about anything or admitted she was wrong. She comes by that honestly. I've learned that she may not say it outwardly, but she kind-of has her own way of apologizing.

So, we've had some up and down days/times. I guess that's plan A. I'm continuing to focus on myself, eliminating LB's and trying to at least be available to meet EN's. We've spent some time watching shows she likes together (that's her leisure activity). We've talked but I'm redirecting if we get into the M. I'm being confident and helpful around the house. REAL helpful. I like it, I feel way more involved with the family and I'm way more calm (due to eliminating LB of outbursts and DJ's).

I have NOT called the Harleys because I'm still not clear on if this is something I'm doing on my own, or if I wait until W gets out of the fog and actually tries to start engaging in a recovery effort? When does recovery officially start? Does it start for me first and then her??
If I do this alone, with that expenditure, isn't that a huge LB (one of her identified most damaging- Independent Behavior, especially in regards to spending money)?

I also have yet to read SAA; I ordered it but something got screwed up, so I'm having to order it again. I think I would want to be very familiar with the concepts before I call and waste their time with rudimentary stuff...

I would love to get my WW on board with MB, right now, that seems a ways off.
How's this one?:
Our counseling session this week consisted with the therapist grilling me on why I would expose my wife's affair at the risk of humiliating her and pushing her further away. He also asked if I ever planned to apologize about this. I was almost speechless, but held my ground as best I could. I wish I would have remembered to say "the M can handle humiliation, it can't handle the dishonesty of an A." He pushed me so hard I think my W actually felt sorry for me. I'm a little concerned that we're not getting the perfect advice, but at least we're talking every week in a safe environment. He does want us to succeed, but definitely is not aware of MB. It's the best we have at this time, so I have to stick with it.

Snooping has revealed NO text's from OM in 9 days. Also that 300 texts had been deleted in the two months prior. No way to know what they said (Boost Mobile doesn't give it). I guess there's no reason to perseverate on it either.

Any further feedback will be much appreciated. This site has been tremendously helpful (my posts and reading others'). I don't know where my M will be in a year, but with all your help, I'll be a better man, parent, and hopefully husband.

Optimism


Posted By: catperson Re: Quick Plan A question. - 11/20/09 10:49 PM
Send your counselor the link to MB. Tell him that if he wants to continue counseling you guys (i.e., get paid), you would appreciate it if he would read about your program before spouting off on something he knows nothing about.
Posted By: catperson Re: Quick Plan A question. - 11/20/09 10:56 PM
Have you ever watched a show called SuperNanny? You remind me of one episode where the dad would come home, sit down, get waited on and left alone, 'for a few minutes,' and then never get up from his chair for the rest of the night. Every night. (not that you do, just your comment about helping)

So, SuperNanny Jo set up a work chart for the whole family. You could literally see the pain on this guy's face, as he realized she expected him to do housework! In fact, she came back the next day, and he had covered up his part on the chart!

It was really quite telling, and hilarious.

Jo made the wife leave for an hour, just to be by herself and not be responsible for the family. She wouldn't leave! Jo made her leave, and then she couldn't think of any place to go! So Jo finally told her to just get her iPod and go for a walk around the block. She did, and you could see the strain just lifting off her shoulders, as she spent the first 30 minutes alone for the first time in 12 or so years.

In the end, you saw him getting the kids to help him wash dishes. Or rake leaves, or vacuum, etc. And he had fun, because he was for the first time interacting with his kids!

It was such a neat show. At the end, he tearfully thanked her for opening up a part of his life he had been missing.

I love SuperNanny.
Posted By: optimism Re: Quick Plan A question. - 11/21/09 12:44 AM
You know what, Cat, that's not too far off the mark. The SuperNanny thing. I can honestly say that this whole MB thing first opened up my eyes to LBs (for me DJ's, AO's, IB's, dishonesty, etc.) and how damaging they are to a relationship. But what I didn't expect was how happy I could be in my own self with those gone. [not sure how personal to get, but I've also eliminated another nasty habit based on information gained here- another boost in my own sense of self-worth with that gone]. In the past, I had made similar observations (even went to an anger management class many years ago) and subsequent changes but the changes were usually short-lived. Difference: changes were made with an expectation that I was going to get something in return (more SF, eg.) This whole situation has taught me a whole lot. I suppose it would have been easier to go on SuperNanny, but if I do a reality show I think I'll start with the Amazing Race. smirk

You're right. I was thinking of getting him a copy of SAA, and/or saying exactly what you said. He really was out of line criticizing something he hadn't researched. Problem is he's the only real life-preserver we have right now and I don't want to drop it until we have a viable alternative. We have done counseling in the past and then dropped it too early (job/insurance changes, etc.) - that's worse than not going at all in some ways. We've also got a pretty good history going with this guy and I don't want to screw up the therapeutic relationship at this juncture. He was trying to push me a little, and I have no problem with that; I just wished he'd have looked into the whole thing a little more (lot more). I think he may have set us back on our "recovery" a little (we'll see as things move forward).

Anyway, thanks Cat. Still hoping to have a couple of those questions answered above, hoping this post doesn't get buried.

And just for the record: I was never "that" guy. One of my annoying habits (my W filled it out practically at gunpoint over the summer) is "always trying to be productive and never just sitting and relaxing." My new approach is a shift to a new balance. wink

Opt
Posted By: optimism Another Quick Plan A question. (Serious) - 11/21/09 06:04 AM
Momentary lapse of sanity:
WW (10 days since no contact) decides she wants to go to dinner with a friend. That turns into two friends, then drinks at the yaght club we are members at. I track her all night. She's basically where she says she is, and I know them at the club. I called a few times. Once to "look for something", Once to "check on her" once to get an ETA, and finally at 1am a little pissed because she had said she'd be home soon over an hour ago. I kinda lost my cool and asked who she was with (big LB for her at this time, especially since I know she's in a safe environment).
Is this typical WW behavior - recent exposure and probably in a withdrawal state? I'm trying to plan A but I just can't believe how inconsiderate she is being. Is she trying to punish/torture me, after all I've been through? How do I reconcile this when she gets home or in the am. How much "space" do I have to give while still plan Aing? I'm exhausted and a ball of nerves.
I know recovery is not for the timid. Maybe just need some encouragement. Or maybe I'm screwing up somewhere - please advise!
Opti
WSs always chafe at the sudden lockdown, and push the edges of authority. Yeah, you set it back a little. But now she knows what's on your mind. IMO, she knows now it's not going to be easy to slide on the rules.

fwiw, I don't see a problem with you emailing the counselor with a link to MB.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Another Quick Plan A question. (Serious) - 11/21/09 02:15 PM
When my WH was still "foggy" he was going out to bars, hanging out late ~ which isn't anything he liked to do the whole rest of our M.

Listen, I am very concerned about your M given all that you guys have to overcome. If I were you, I would call Steve Harley ASAP. I would do it alone for the first session so that you can explain to him about your past A etc etc.

He will tell you where to go from there with your WW. I have heard Mel say before that Steve is known for being a "salesperson" and getting the WS to want to recommit to the marriage and use MB principles. My sister(NotSure) and her H are counseling with him right now. Her H didn't want anything to do with MC ~ but it turned out to be true, he really likes Steve and is actually completing the homework, etc.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another Quick Plan A question. - 11/22/09 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by catperson
WSs always chafe at the sudden lockdown, and push the edges of authority. Yeah, you set it back a little. But now she knows what's on your mind. IMO, she knows now it's not going to be easy to slide on the rules.

fwiw, I don't see a problem with you emailing the counselor with a link to MB.


Cat thanks so much. I read this after I woke up (she got in a 1:30 and I left it alone). In the morning I said sorry for "invading her space with the 'who are you with' comment," and she actually admitted that she had been somewhat "presumptuous" (that's above par for her when it comes to admitting any wrong doing - NOT a DJ, just an observation....)

Anyway, I think I smoothed it over, but I don't think my lack of trust is unfounded and will continue to be diligent. Her alibi checked out and all seems good.

Mostly, it is good to hear you folks affirming that this is typical behavior for a WS at this stage: still foggy, still feeling rebellious.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, anyone: I picture her withdrawing not only from the affair (EN's being met in secret) but also from the nice lifestyle she had made for herself all summer(the excitement, constant flattery, adrenaline, powerfull feelings) from the summer/fall. In order to ease the blow or come down softer, her taker might be saying 'stay out late.'
Make sense? is that a way to look at it?
Seems like my job is still to stick with Plan A (including snoops), and entice her to want to come home earlier.

I re-ordered SAA, 2 copies, express delivery. Should be here by next T session. "Here doc, why don't you try reading this before you criticize it."

Opt
Originally Posted by SusieQ
When my WH was still "foggy" he was going out to bars, hanging out late ~ which isn't anything he liked to do the whole rest of our M.

Listen, I am very concerned about your M given all that you guys have to overcome. If I were you, I would call Steve Harley ASAP. I would do it alone for the first session so that you can explain to him about your past A etc etc.


Susie, thanks so much for your response. It helps. Yeah, she's usually in bed by 10 and asleep by 10:05. Which is why it was really tripping me that it got to be 1am and she was still out.

Anyway. Further questions:
Are these still typical fog related ramblings:

[list]
[*]"We could be such great friends if we were divorced"
[*]"would you ever consider continuing to be great friends and co-parents but just not married?"
[*]"I just don't think we were meant to be together"
[*]"If you badger me about my friends, I'm OUT"
[*]"You can't control me"
[my personal favorite. I've never tried to control anyone in my life. I'm a Libra for crying out loud. Hearing this I feel like Brair Rabbit hearing he's going to the bryer patch - my plan is to make her WANT to control herself].

And here's a concern.
It seems that some of her conversations with the bone-headed friends last night was all about how glamorous divorce can be. (she told me in the am). Her best friend actually hooked her up with a guy (for conversation) who is recently going through a "successful" divorce where the spouse took up with some low-life and is still with the OM going on two years - kicker: they have no kids and the situation gets more different from there. I plan to have a little chat with this "helpful consultant" as he is a member of the same club we go to. I also will be illiciting some assistance of my own from this best friend who is supposedly my friend as well (she actually helped me through my Dday thing 2 weeks ago).
Point is: is this just WW continuing to see and seek out information through FOGGY glasses to affirm this new sense of reality that the A threw her into? Is it normal for the foggy wayward to want to continue to hang on to the "it wasn't the affair, I really wanted out all along" song & dance? Is that an ego protection device?
It doesn't matter to me that much, I'm Plan Aing my A$$ off anyway and hoping for the best. I would just be really interested to hear if you folks think anything in here sounds amiss or unusual. [color:#333399T]thanks for any feedback.[/color]
Here's one. She actually suggested a time line for me when I told her I was "just trying to prove to myself I can be a better person long enough to feel confident in myself; whether you're there for it at the end or not (no pressure on you)." I understand time-lines don't really work, but I thought it was significant that she's talking in those terms. She offered SIX MONTHS. Which I also thought was coincidental because I've read that the TAKER usually resurfaces at 6 months, and women tend to need about 6 months to get things straightened out in their head (can't remember what post that was on this board).

Su-Q: I really appreciate your interest and your concern. Please know that I have taken your suggestion with the utmost seriousness. I consider it an order. I will call the Harley's and I will do it on my own for at least the first session. I hope you also understand that I am a very systematic person and I really feel that I need to have a firm grasp on MB concepts and particularly SAA before I make that call. I believe I rushed my exposure plan due to misapplying some of the encouragement I had recieved here (talk about having things out of order... tired ) and I don't want to repeat that.

You guys have NOT steered me wrong yet. I am so grateful for this site and your encouragement & guidance.

OPT
Posted By: optimism Before you guys even say anything... - 11/22/09 02:21 PM
Quote
And here's a concern.
It seems that some of her conversations with the bone-headed friends last night was all about how glamorous divorce can be. (she told me in the am). Her best friend actually hooked her up with a guy (for conversation) who is recently going through a "successful" divorce where the spouse took up with some low-life and is still with the OM going on two years - kicker: they have no kids and the situation gets more different from there.
redflag HELLO!!! wake up Opt!
After I had a chance to process this one (and one sleepless night last night) I realized I have a huge redflag on my hands.
I will be going after this one as best I can.
Please advise.

Opt


Yeah, I was going to say, she should NOT be around ANYONE like this! You HAVE to have a talk with this friend, and beg her if you have to not to show men like this creep to WW right now!

IIWY, I would do my best to keep her away from the friend, too.

I think if I were you, I'd find a really good, on-call babysitter you can call every time your wife goes out, and go out with her. If she doesn't like that, then you go separately, and hang out at the same place.

If she doesn't like THAT, then you say, you have shown me no reason to trust you yet. You don't GET trust from me until you prove you can earn it. Talking to divorcing men is not a reason for trust.

There's a difference between Plan A and doormat. You can Plan A but not accept wayward behavior.

She NEEDS you to be strong right now.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Another Quick Plan A question. (Serious) - 11/22/09 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
Anyway. Further questions:
Are these still typical fog related ramblings:

[list]
[*]"We could be such great friends if we were divorced"
[*]"would you ever consider continuing to be great friends and co-parents but just not married?"
[*]"I just don't think we were meant to be together"
[*]"If you badger me about my friends, I'm OUT"
[*]"You can't control me"
[my personal favorite. I've never tried to control anyone in my life. I'm a Libra for crying out loud. Hearing this I feel like Brair Rabbit hearing he's going to the bryer patch - my plan is to make her WANT to control herself].
Opt,

My sister's WH also had the fantasy that he could continue to live in the home, they would separate and he could go right on conducting his A. When my sister told him that this would not be happening and explained they would not be friends and that it would not be a nice divorce, it seemed to defog him. I think armymama had a similar experience with her WH.

However with your OM living right on the street, I just don't know if you CAN defog your WW. Then add in the fact that she may still be hostile about your exposure, I am just not sure how you should handle this other than to let her know you aren't interested in a D.

I would not wait to read all the MB books before you call Steve. I would just schedule the appt right away.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another Quick Plan A question. (Serious) - 11/22/09 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
I will call the Harley's and I will do it on my own for at least the first session. I hope you also understand that I am a very systematic person and I really feel that I need to have a firm grasp on MB concepts and particularly SAA before I make that call.

Opt,

This makes NO sense to me???....why would you think you need a firm grasp of the concepts BEFORE you even schedule???

Did you do this with your CURRENT counselor??.....I bet not..

If you injure your arm, do you feel the need to "grasp" the lingo the Dr. will tell you BEFORE you get it fixed???..... crazy

Just make that call and get YOU on the experts path....Remember, the Harley's are the experts, the boards are not.....both Steve and Jennifer are better equipped to tell you HOW you should be persuing this than we are.....

Originally Posted by opt
I believe I rushed my exposure plan due to misapplying some of the encouragement I had recieved here (talk about having things out of order... tired ) and I don't want to repeat that.

This is WHY you need to go to the EXPERTS.....the one who came up with the road plans to Recovery....

Originally Posted by opt
You guys have NOT steered me wrong yet. I am so grateful for this site and your encouragement & guidance.

Then CALL THE HARLEY'S!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your wife is in cake-eating mode. Of course she wants you to do this for 6 months, while she sits on her butt doing as she pleases, while you Plan A and resentment building along the way.......She is going out because she is a foggy, entitled wayward who does not want to OWN up to what she has/is doing. This going out is another chasing of the high. The high she got from the neighbor. Her addiction. And now she is looking for something to replace it.......and IF you seriously want to save this marriage, your BEST bet would be to get rid of this joker of a counselor (and WHY did you buy him a copy of SAA???...aren't you spending enough of your hard earned money on this man?????....) and call the HARLEY'S........

not2fun

ps....I expect you will find many nights like last night to happen again and again......
OMG HOW CAN YOU GUYS POSSIBLY BE SO RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING!?

Hung out as "a family" last night at the club. The coast was clear, so I figured around 8:30 I better get the kids home, and allowed my WW to continue her conversation with a woman she had just met from England. After I put the kids to bed (and I read this post) I started thinking maybe she really should be encouraged to come home and be with her family. So I hopped in the car and ran up there (4 minutes away). Guess who happened to show up, evidently just minutes after I left?!

Yup, the guy from Friday night. She started saying some crap about real estate and it's an innocent conversation. (yeh, whatever). When I reminded her she's a married woman she retorted "no I'm not." WOW! (right out of the WW hand book??)
(Of course I also took the opportunity to tell him he had a lot of nerve talking to a married woman about her marriage without me present, all in front of his friends.)

Anyway. I'm calling the Harleys this am. Independent Behavior? You Bet. Necessary to save [or re-evaluate?) my marriage? Absolutely.

Opt.

Posted By: optimism In between plans - need help - 11/23/09 09:32 PM
Okay, I have an appointment with Steve for Wednesday am. Now I'm stuck in limbo. A bad kind of limbo and I really need help right now.

I got a text from WW at 3 saying "I'm falling apart." I dropped everything I was doing and headed home. I was hoping by some miracle the fog was beginning to lift and she was going to tell me she realized what she was doing was wrong and not good for our marriage.
Unfortunately, that was not what was on her mind.
She was completely "humiliated" by my behavior last night (showing up at the club) and doesn't even want to show her face there anymore (that's a plus...). She insists I was out of line and that the conversation was purely innocent, in addition there was a third party there (granted).
I didn't know what to say. I'm trying to Plan A, but I don't want to be a 'door mat'.
Although I remained calm, our conversation rapidly deteriorated and ended with me stating that we were either going to work on our marriage or we would be working on a divorce; no in between B.S. with her pretending she's married only when it's convenient for her.
I don't know anything about Plan B. I had hoped it hadn't gotten to this so quickly (11 days since NC with OM).

I just spent $800 on 5 consults. I also took the liberty of grabbing whatever little money is left in the joint account (2g) (she had originally taken 10 G after the exposure....one of those steps I neglected). There won't be money for the mortgage. I plan to tell her to unbury the money she took last month and I'm really not worried about my credit rating b/c she's going to ruin me financially anyway.


How bad did I screw up? And what do I do until the consult with Steve?

(Not so much) Optimism
Posted By: not2fun Re: In between plans - need help - 11/23/09 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
How bad did I screw up? And what do I do until the consult with Steve?

Opt,

You didn't screw up THAT bad. Heck, I did WAY worse in Plan A. And yet, here I am in R today.....

As far as what to do until Wed., keep Plan A'ing. I'll give you some simply rules to follow during these next 2 day....

1. Avoid all Love Busters.....

2. Meet all Emotional Needs.....

3. NO EXPECTATIONS.....


Do not talk about affair/marriage/divorce/relationship. AT ALL!!!!....

If she brings it up, just tell her you don't want to talk about that right now and then change the subject. Or leave the room.......

Be as loving, cheerful and positive as possible. The only thing you can control is YOU.

As far as making the appt.....VERY GOOD. You are getting the best help out there. Steve will be able to guide you through everything. And he can do it much better than we can.....LISTEN CLOSELY....

Quote
OMG HOW CAN YOU GUYS BE SO RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING

Because your WW is a garden variety wayward. She is doing nothing that we all haven't seen before. Your situation isn't unusual nor special. It happens ALL the time.

Just stick to the plans, and you'll do fine until your appt. Make some family plans for tomorrow night. Do something fun, like bowling.

not2fun
Posted By: catperson Re: In between plans - need help - 11/24/09 12:13 AM
If I were you, I would be tearing the house apart to find that $10,000! Good grief!

Quote
She insists I was out of line
IMO, THIS is what your problem is. You are acting like a scared kitty cat. Oh no, I can't upset her!

There's a big difference, IMO, in how WWs and WHs react. WHs react best when the BW calmly tells him to get out of her life; men don't WANT to have to take care of themselves - that's the cake they want.

WWs react best when the BH gets MAD, takes SWIFT action, and takes no prisoners. Women need strong men. They HATE accommodating, nice, understanding men. They lose ALL respect for BHs who try to kiss up to them.

JMO, but it's time for you to man up and tell her what this house together WILL look like, if she chooses to stay there with you and her kids. If she doesn't like it, there's the door - WITHOUT her children.
Posted By: optimism Re: In between plans - need help - 11/24/09 01:53 AM
Thanks NTF for the encouragement.
It's very hard to stay out of the relationship talks, but I'll try.
Again tonight she said tonight she needs time and "space to clear her head." I didn't really respond, but it's just so exasperating to have to listen to this malarky.

I'm glad to know people really do get to recovery. Right now that seems like an eternity away.
opt
Posted By: optimism Re: In between plans - need help - 11/24/09 01:59 AM
Originally Posted by catperson
If I were you, I would be tearing the house apart to find that $10,000! Good grief!

Quote
She insists I was out of line
IMO, THIS is what your problem is. You are acting like a scared kitty cat. Oh no, I can't upset her!

There's a big difference, IMO, in how WWs and WHs react. WHs react best when the BW calmly tells him to get out of her life; men don't WANT to have to take care of themselves - that's the cake they want.

WWs react best when the BH gets MAD, takes SWIFT action, and takes no prisoners. Women need strong men. They HATE accommodating, nice, understanding men. They lose ALL respect for BHs who try to kiss up to them.

JMO, but it's time for you to man up and tell her what this house together WILL look like, if she chooses to stay there with you and her kids. If she doesn't like it, there's the door - WITHOUT her children.

I understand what you're saying Cat. She might not be typical in some ways, but I like your analogy. The last part is definitely true - she has this rosey picture of divorce; I wish I could snap her out of it, but it will take time and effort I know that.
O
Posted By: not2fun Re: In between plans - need help - 11/24/09 02:00 AM
Originally Posted by optimism
It's very hard to stay out of the relationship talks, but I'll try.

I'll give you some reverse babble.....


WW..."I want a divorce"....
You..."I don't do divorce, my lawyer does....wanna chip"

WW..."do you really think we belong together"....

Opt..."Yes I do...wanna watch 'Big Bang Theory'"


Quote
Again tonight she said tonight she needs time and "space to clear her head."

opt..."I agree".....

if you can't think of something....JUST WALK OUT OF THE ROOM....preferably whistling some happy tune.....

not2fun
Posted By: not2fun Re: In between plans - need help - 11/25/09 04:19 PM
Opt,

How did the appt. go?? Let us know what Steve said.....

Not2fun
Posted By: optimism Re: In between plans - need help - 11/26/09 01:41 AM
Originally Posted by not2fun
Opt,

How did the appt. go?? Let us know what Steve said.....

Not2fun

It went pretty well. He's very good. It started with him asking some questions and me giving a history (as you might expect).
I kept notes and actually recorded myself, however I did not get his side of the conversation on tape (equipment issue). I did come home and type the notes the best I could. I will share them below. I would expect much of this comes out of the book SAA but since I just got my copy, I don't know for sure. Either way, it means a lot more and strikes harder than any printed word I should expect, when it comes directly from the author. He also is obviously able to taylor the material to the needs of the current situation.

Here are my notes from the part of the conversation after the general history part. Feel free to ask questions and I'll elaborate if I can remember specifics.
STEVE: "THE SITUATION IS NOT UNRECOVERABLE"
Analogy about two people wanting a weight loss program but being with broken legs/ car accident
MOTIVATION IS A BIG DEAL RIGHT NOW.
Problem: not in love with each other.
NEED TO TREAT THE INJURY FIRST, prior to treating the �weight loss� issue
Need to convince her by appealing to her self-serving side.
Say: (1) �I talked to someone who had an interesting idea. Would you agree that the ideal scenario for you to be truly in love with the father of your (children)?�
he explained that she would try to change the question: �that�s not possible, too late, etc.� and that I should acknowledge that but return to the original question: �don�t you agree that the IDEAL for YOU would be that you would be in love with the father of your children?�
I am working towards getting a �Yes� to this question. And that it�s all about HER happiness.
Sequentially next: (2) �I�ve found an idea that the ideal scenario CAN happen and I�d like to see how you feel about gathering information on how.� �would you say it�s worthy of further investigation?�
(3) Encourage her to talk to Steve who �knows how to work with couples like us� and �I want to look into it WITH you because I might have blind spots, �need your help.�

*Important NOTE: Do not make her feel that talking to Steve is a commitment to do anything else. There�s no expectation that your beliefs will change. I won�t take it as an indication that this R can work.

�I�d like to look into what it would take for it to be possible� and �there�s reason to believe we haven�t been doing it right in the past/ haven�t had a goal.�
We�ve been moving but not in the right direction and not toward a common goal: a MUTUALLY enjoyable marriage.

He explained that this conversation should happen ASAP.

He went on to explain that I had to stop with my REACTIONS (jealousy, suspicious behavior)/Sunday�s episode [for the board: I confronted her in front of friends....not a good plan - catapulted her away from me].
He suggested I let her know that those reactions will stop and that she can feel safe with me (even in the event of exercising her �freedom/space� - again due to she�s in self-indulgent mode at this time)
Represent the feeling/attitude that a MUTUALLY enjoyable relationship is possible.
He will act as a coach, and that�s not MY job, that�s HIS. We�re the players, he�s the 3rd person. (don�t try to explain the strategies)
Represent: �You can make me divorce you, but I can�t force you to do anything. You�re happiness is what�s in it for you and is it reasonable to simply LOOK INTO IT�


-----It was all very encouraging.

Opt
Posted By: SusieQ Re: In between plans - need help - 11/26/09 03:52 AM
Wow, thanks so much for filling us in! I am really glad you called. I like the approach he has given you with your WW. I hope she will talk to him. Please keep us posted!
Posted By: optimism Conversation One with Steve H - 11/28/09 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Wow, thanks so much for filling us in! I am really glad you called. I like the approach he has given you with your WW. I hope she will talk to him. Please keep us posted!


NP Susie (and others interested),
I just remembered something else Steve said that was pretty interesting/insightful.
For the reluctant spouse (WS, let's say) who is having trouble imagining a M in a place recovery, point out that on wedding day neither party imagined the current scenario.

Seems kind of obvious, but it was an encouraging thought to me nonetheless.

Opt
Posted By: optimism Re: In between plans - need help - 12/03/09 01:58 AM
Originally Posted by not2fun
Originally Posted by optimism
How bad did I screw up? And what do I do until the consult with Steve?

Opt,

You didn't screw up THAT bad. Heck, I did WAY worse in Plan A. And yet, here I am in R today.....

As far as what to do until Wed., keep Plan A'ing. I'll give you some simply rules to follow during these next 2 day....

1. Avoid all Love Busters.....

2. Meet all Emotional Needs.....

3. NO EXPECTATIONS.....


Do not talk about affair/marriage/divorce/relationship. AT ALL!!!!....

If she brings it up, just tell her you don't want to talk about that right now and then change the subject. Or leave the room.......

Be as loving, cheerful and positive as possible. The only thing you can control is YOU.

As far as making the appt.....VERY GOOD. You are getting the best help out there. Steve will be able to guide you through everything. And he can do it much better than we can.....LISTEN CLOSELY....

Quote
OMG HOW CAN YOU GUYS BE SO RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING

Because your WW is a garden variety wayward. She is doing nothing that we all haven't seen before. Your situation isn't unusual nor special. It happens ALL the time.

Just stick to the plans, and you'll do fine until your appt. Make some family plans for tomorrow night. Do something fun, like bowling.

not2fun

Hi all, sorry it�s been a while since I posted. I wanted to make sure WW didn�t have a line on this thread or that she was checking the site. It appears she hasn�t.

Unfortunately, in spite of my best efforts and following Steve�s plan, I was unable to persuade her to talk to Steve, at least this week frown. I had her agreeing with �the best scenario for HER happiness would be that she would be in love with the father of our children.� Even step two, but she fell off at the idea of talking to anyone about the relationship �right now� due to feeling like she�s �in a pressure cooker� and needs to �get away from it for a while.�

I found out tonight that the deep depression she suddenly fell into on Monday and Tuesday was probably due in part to a very friendly e-mail she received from OM on Monday am (I just found it today, Wednesday). She also renewed her battle cry of �needing separation� coincidentally at that point. :oAhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! (she had seen a lawyer on Saturday and got a dose of reality, was kind of warming up over the w/e)

But Steve�s advice was NOT to be reactionary at this point. And obviously I�m not giving up my source for one email. I�m plan A�ing, so not being the source of her unhappiness. I�m meeting needs when she�ll allow me to.

I believe a plan B might fall into my lap because she�s talking about moving out next month. I plan to talk to Steve next week about how to orchestrate that if it comes to it. If she�ll agree to talk to him, hopefully he can explain what NC means�

Anyway, I need to vent so here I am. (I read in another thread that�s a legitimate use of this board.)
WW is NOT observing true NC. She doesn�t reciprocate, but she just doesn�t (wont) understand that it�s still totally damaging. She also lies by omission about it. mad

I got the most amazing fog babble today and was ready to rip things up, but I held my cool. Here it is:
�if we�re going to get back together, you are going to have to forgive OM.� puke

I held it together and explained that I am a forgiving person and believe it�s part of life. And left it at that.
Also, the night before: �you�re being so nice is coming between me and the kids� dontknow
To which I responded that it is important that �we don�t want that�
She also flat out lied in counseling yesterday about contact (conveniently forgetting about the e-mail from the day before).

The counselor asked what one thing we could give to each other this week. She asked for �space,� I said all I want is honesty. Yea, fat chance.

I�ve been reading a lot of threads (and SAA) and find that my situation pales in comparison to many/most in that WW isn�t actively having PA in front of my eyes and my kids� like some situations out there. I know it�s more than she lets on, but still the magnitude is not like some stories out there. But this still hurts, having to go through this � seeing my wife turn into a lying alien, talking all kinds of BS with her head firmly implanted in her A$$.
-Opt-
Posted By: _SOL Re: In between plans - need help - 12/03/09 05:32 AM
Opt,

Our situations are very similar. My thread is "Want new start- wife doesn't". (Sorry, I dont know how to post link). Your thread has been very helpful to me and I used the line about ideal situation for her to be in love with father of her kids. She agreed. She also agreed to talk to Steve, but by herself. She refuses NC and says she does not want to try to recover. I'm hoping for a miracle!!

Posted By: optimism help please - letter to WW - 12/03/09 09:48 PM
Re: broken NC.
Is this a good idea? I read in SAA that "John" (BH) used to write letters to "Sue" (WW)due to his inability to talk to her. WW would never let me get past the first sentence below...

What I'm trying to accomplish is NOT education. Just to let her know that she's treading on thin ice: shortly after the first exposure I promised not to "keep telling her friends she was having an affair" if she promised to "stop having an affair." I don't think she wants to go through that again.

Incidentally, is there such a thing as a second exposure? I was thinking I would make the next one a written snail mail letter. Not sure how that would work. Or would I just plan B her at some point. (NOT looking forward to that).

Dear WW,
I wanted you to know that I have drawn some conclusions from your behavior in the last several days. The fact that on Tuesday and Wednesday of this week you specifically brought up OM�s name tells me that he (or you) have broken the No Contact agreement that we had. On Tuesday his name came up in counseling and you were back to defending him as someone who would �never hurt� you, and that he was �heart broken�. Then on Wednesday, you gave me the condition that �if we were to get back together, you would have to forgive him.� Again, a sympathetic position showing me that he has managed to rekindle the feelings you have for him. Your tremendous depression on Monday and Tuesday (your words �the worst I have felt in years�) tells me that you are wrestling with some considerable emotion and that did not happen just out of the blue. I suspect he probably got you on the phone. On Sunday, we were having a great time together until you listened to your �6 messages� that were left during the movie. You immediately became ill and could not eat your dinner. I would imagine that at least one of those messages was from him. I suspect the renewed battle cry of �needing space� has a lot to do with your need to pursue ways to remain in contact without interference from your family.

Maybe you�ve talked to him, maybe not. Maybe he�s texted you in addition. Maybe you�ve returned communication, maybe you haven�t. None of that matters. What is important is that every time he shows his face to you or lets you hear his voice, you are instantly reminded of all the positive emotions that go along with the relationship that you shared. He has an instinct for this. Hell, there are books written about how to steal other people�s wives; it�s not rocket science. Either way, by throwing himself out there you are then subject to the very powerful brain chemicals (neurotransmitters) that got you hooked on him in the first place. I know you had a great time with him. How could you not? You had a 30 year old virile male courting you, feeding your emotional need of admiration, attention, and flattery and God only knows what else. It must feel great, especially at this juncture in your life. Meanwhile you had me meeting your need for domestic support and family commitment. Life was good. It didn�t matter then that he was lying and it doesn�t matter now that he�s lying. I could tell/show you things that he�s said about you, but I doubt it would make any difference to you in your current state. You know he doesn�t care for you, but you need that fix , that taste of what your life was back in May/June. Before you had the inconvenience of having to take the whole thing underground.

All this is why No Contact means No Contact. I suggest that you have not taken ANY real precautions to avoid him. You and I both know that he will NEVER stop. You purposely leave doors open to him, even after experiencing how persistent he is. This tells me a lot.

You must think I�m really stupid but you�re not fooling anyone with your secret little cell phone. Everyone knows if you want to have untraceable conversations you get a pay-by-the-month unlimited cell. I wouldn�t even be a bit surprised if he was/is paying for it.


You should know that your behavior in the last 8 months has already caused incalculable harm to your children, me, and our relationship. The kids are very confused and upset about you sleeping in the office. They may not tell you but they tell me. They are hurt and scared. Perhaps the need to be separate from me (and your resentment of me being nice to you) is your way of dealing with the feelings of shame and guilt that you feel. Someday you will have to face those feelings head on. I will be there to help you with those feelings when you are ready.

I realize that nothing I say can convince you to pull your head out of your [censored]. This would be like asking a crack addict to �please just stop smoking crack.� I don�t expect you to change anything. You�ve proven over and over again that the only person you�re truly concerned about right now is WW.

However, I�m a human being too and whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, my feelings count; your continued lying (outright and by omission) is very damaging and hurtful.

Posted By: optimism Re: In between plans - need help - 12/03/09 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by SickofLimbo
Opt,

Our situations are very similar. My thread is "Want new start- wife doesn't". (Sorry, I dont know how to post link). Your thread has been very helpful to me and I used the line about ideal situation for her to be in love with father of her kids. She agreed. She also agreed to talk to Steve, but by herself. She refuses NC and says she does not want to try to recover. I'm hoping for a miracle!!

Limbo,
First let me thank you for your service to our country. You are appreciated.
I started reading your thread and will finish later tonight and respond.

Not sure if we can help each other specifically, I'm certainly no expert. But I look forward to trading some "war stories" with you. It's amazing some of the crap I have to listen to and put up with and it sounds like you have much of the same (dying her hair pink? GMAB).

I'll try to share some things that I've found inspirational from the vets. starting with: In the end you want your kids to have at least one parent with integrity. That one's been keeping me going for a while.

Opt

I think you can post your thread in your profile; I'll let you know if I figure it out. I need to do the same.
Posted By: catperson Re: help please - letter to WW - 12/03/09 10:18 PM
My two cents:
Originally Posted by optimism
Dear WW,
I wanted you to know that I have drawn some conclusions from your behavior in the last several days. The fact that on Tuesday and Wednesday of this week you specifically brought up OM�s name tells me that he (or you) have broken the No Contact agreement that we had. On Tuesday his name came up in counseling and you were back to defending him as someone who would �never hurt� you, and that he was �heart broken�. Then on Wednesday, you gave me the condition that �if we were to get back together, you would have to forgive him.� Again, a sympathetic position showing me that he has managed to rekindle the feelings you have for him. Your tremendous depression on Monday and Tuesday (your words �the worst I have felt in years�) tells me that you are wrestling with some considerable emotion and that did not happen just out of the blue. I suspect he probably got you on the phone. On Sunday, we were having a great time together until you listened to your �6 messages� that were left during the movie. You immediately became ill and could not eat your dinner. I would imagine that at least one of those messages was from him. I suspect the renewed battle cry of �needing space� has a lot to do with your need to pursue ways to remain in contact without interference from your family.

Maybe you�ve talked to him, maybe not. Maybe he�s texted you in addition. Maybe you�ve returned communication, maybe you haven�t. None of that matters. What is important is that every time he shows his face to you or lets you hear his voice, you are instantly reminded of all the positive emotions that go along with the relationship that you shared. He has an instinct for this. Hell, there are books written about how to steal other people�s wives; it�s not rocket science. Either way, by throwing himself out there you are then subject to the very powerful brain chemicals (neurotransmitters) that got you hooked on him in the first place. I know you had a great time with him. How could you not? You had a 30 year old virile male courting you, feeding your emotional need of admiration, attention, and flattery and God only knows what else. It must feel great, especially at this juncture in your life. Meanwhile you had me meeting your need for domestic support and family commitment. Life was good. It didn�t matter then that he was lying and it doesn�t matter now that he�s lying. I could tell/show you things that he�s said about you, but I doubt it would make any difference to you in your current state. You know he doesn�t care for you, but you need that fix , that taste of what your life was back in May/June. Before you had the inconvenience of having to take the whole thing underground.

All this is why No Contact means No Contact. I suggest that you have not taken ANY real precautions to avoid him. You and I both know that he will NEVER stop. You purposely leave doors open to him, even after experiencing how persistent he is. This tells me a lot.

You must think I�m really stupid but you�re not fooling anyone with your secret little cell phone. Everyone knows if you want to have untraceable conversations you get a pay-by-the-month unlimited cell. I wouldn�t even be a bit surprised if he was/is paying for it.


You should know that your behavior in the last 8 months has already caused incalculable harm to your children, me, and our relationship. The kids are very confused and upset about you sleeping in the office. They may not tell you but they tell me. They are hurt and scared. Perhaps the need to be separate from me (and your resentment of me being nice to you) is your way of dealing with the feelings of shame and guilt that you feel. Someday you will have to face those feelings head on. I will be there to help you with those feelings when you are ready I want to say that I will be there to help you face it when you're ready but I honestly can't say that; I don't know how long I can continue to watch you make a mockery of marriage and choose your own happiness over your children's and still stay in love with you.

I realize that nothing I say can convince you to pull your head out of your [censored]. This would be like asking a crack addict to �please just stop smoking crack.� I don�t expect you to change anything. You�ve proven over and over again that the only person you�re truly concerned about right now is WW.

However, I�m a human being too and whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, my feelings count; your continued lying (outright and by omission) is very damaging and hurtful. And if you choose to continue with dishonesty and deceit, we will not be married much longer. And I will fight with all my resources to ensure that my children don't grow up around - and learn to be like - a woman who commits adultery and lies just to feed her own selfish aims. I love you, but I will not remain a doormat for you.
Posted By: Linus Re: help please - letter to WW - 12/03/09 10:27 PM
Re: letter to WW - WOW!
I hope I don't get to that point, but if I do, I'm going to plagiarize some of what you wrote:)
I'll be looking to see the outcome. Good luck, my friend.
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: help please - letter to WW - 12/03/09 11:52 PM
Originally Posted by Linus
Re: letter to WW - WOW!
I hope I don't get to that point, but if I do, I'm going to plagiarize some of what you wrote:)
I'll be looking to see the outcome. Good luck, my friend.
I took my Plan B letter almost word for word from an example that was posted to me. One of the things I think is so terrific about this site is that EVERYONE SHARES and NO ONE WITHHOLDS.

We are all in her about the same thing. This is the strongest support system for marital infidelity I can imagine (or need to, in any event). I would find it a great honor if you were to use my words in the pursuit of winning back your marriage.
Posted By: not2fun Re: help please - letter to WW - 12/04/09 01:45 AM
Opt,
banghead banghead

Please please PLEASE tell me you didn't send that letter???!!!!

Ok, in SAA, when Jon was writting those letters they were LOVE LETTERS!!!!
They were not "education" letters. They were letters expressing his love for Sue and how he wanted their marriage to work.

You are in Plan A, and while in this you act AS IF there is still contact. Yes it's frusterating and heart wrenching BUT if you truly want to save your marriage then you must.....

1. Avoid all Love Busters
2. Meet any and all Emotional Needs
3. NO Expectations

and you do this all AS IF she were still I'm contact. Now, you can let her know that you know she is still in contact. DON'T reveal your sources....... And you do this calmly and as gently as possible.....

And yes, come here and vent away....

(did you send that letter to her???..... I might have to clobber you if you did.... stickout)

STICK TO THE PLANS

not2fun
Posted By: catperson Re: help please - letter to WW - 12/04/09 02:19 AM
I thought this was a Plan B letter? I'm confoozed.
Posted By: optimism Re: help please - letter to WW - 12/04/09 02:53 AM
LOL! No, NTF, I haven't sent it. Put your club away wink

Sorry Cat, I should have been more clear what I was up to. Basically, being creative and to some extent letting my mind work overtime. I was actually inspired by a great thread I saw by one of the vets and got carried away.

Anyway, I guess I have the makings of a decent Plan B letter when it comes to that. Thanks for your feedback/editing, I like your ideas.
Linus, take what you need; I hope anything in that letter is helpful to you.

N2F, thanks for keeping me on track. I'll stick with Plan A: 1,2,&3.

Fred - couldn't agree more. I'd be cooked without this board. Perfect example is the 6 posts above.

Hey guys, what do you think?: WW all in a good mood tonight, cooking dinner and leaving her cell out all night (she's been sleeping with it for weeks). I know she only got two texts today (par for the course since the exposure.) She says she feels better cause the depression is "lifting." I suspect the joviality is due to increase in communication. I will check my VAR tomorrow. I'll look for a pattern of behavior for the next few days and check sources best I can.

think Am I right?

Opt
Posted By: Linus Re: help please - letter to WW - 12/04/09 11:33 AM
I thought Opt was in plan B. That's why I said I hope I don't get to that point. Sorry for the confusion, Opt. I'm still learning!
Hope things get better and you don't have to send the letter at all.
Posted By: not2fun Re: help please - letter to WW - 12/04/09 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
I guess I have the makings of a decent Plan B letter

OH NO YOU DON'T......this is SOOO not a Plan B letter. Not even close. The Plan B letter is also a love letter of sorts. This letter is full of DJ's, AO's, and education, all of which is a total loss to the WW. A Plan B letter is short, full of love, and providing a pathway back to the M for the WW......if and when it comes time for that Steve and us will help you with that......usually most follow the letter in SAA.

Now, I think that letter is a good journaling tool for you. I often wrote WH letters in my Plan A, just to get the frusteration out of my system so I wouldn't Love Bust. I also made LOTS of lists.....reasons why I was angry at WH, why I was angry with myself, what I needed in a marriage. It was very theariputic for me.....so go ahead and journal away. But do so with the intention of NOT giving them to WW.

Originally Posted by opt
think Am I right?

Yes, you are right. Unfortunately. But keep up with your Plan anyway.....which BTW, what are you doing to meet your WW EN'S?....what are your plans for this weekend to incorporate meeting those EN'S???....Keep us posted on what you are doing because we can keep you accountable your Plan.....

not2fun
Posted By: optimism Re: help please - letter to WW - 12/04/09 09:19 PM
Thanks N2F,
I've been reading some threads of folks who are in Plan B (or heading that way) since last night, and yes, now I see that my letter is of no real use for planA/B etc. It did help me solidify in my own mind some material I had read in other threads.

I'm trying to "recon" as Limbo puts it. Not having that great of luck, but knowing I have a plan and intend to stick to it eases my frustration and anxiety (things don't seem quite as urgent because I feel more in control).

I have been meeting what needs I can. I'm going to stop on the way home and get her a little something and put a nice note on it "hope you had a nice week" or something like that. I cut her a grapefruit last night and gave her a ride to work on Wednesday.

NO LB's (very confident with that one).

Bizarre that our marriage has come to this. 9 months ago people held us up as the most married couple in town.

opt
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: help please - letter to WW - 12/04/09 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
Bizarre that our marriage has come to this. 9 months ago people held us up as the most married couple in town.
That's exactly how folks saw us as a married couple.

One of my good friends was so distraught when he heard the news. He told me that he considered us "the hope" of our local community (showing others how good life can get after you've been down).

She has chosen to abandon all the friends and neighbors, as well as her kids, work relations and any semblance of respect others may have had for her.

All to shack up with a married man. And she doesn't realize that what he did with her he will have no compunction to do TO her...
Posted By: optimism Re: help please - letter to WW - 12/04/09 09:59 PM
Fred! So glad to hear from you! I finished reading your entire thread around 4pm (should have been working, LOL) and it ended at 12/1. I got very worried about you. Glad to see you're all in one piece. I'm sure you'll update soon. Just wanted to let you know I was thinking of you and thanks for your thoughts above.
opt

EDIT TO ADD: ps - It looks like you have another thread "new to MB" I'll check that out tonight. crazy
[ MORE EDIT TO ADD: yeah, I was reading your "Plan B Letter" thread.
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: help please - letter to WW - 12/04/09 11:57 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
Fred! So glad to hear from you! I finished reading your entire thread around 4pm (should have been working, LOL) and it ended at 12/1. I got very worried about you. Glad to see you're all in one piece. I'm sure you'll update soon. Just wanted to let you know I was thinking of you and thanks for your thoughts above.
opt

EDIT TO ADD: ps - It looks like you have another thread "new to MB" I'll check that out tonight. crazy
[ MORE EDIT TO ADD: yeah, I was reading your "Plan B Letter" thread.

Sorry... I geezed, and started three threads. When I thought one had played out, I started another. And another. New to MB was the first, Plan B (drafts) and What to tell the neighbors are all mine. Links in my sig:
Posted By: optimism Another EA Story - questions - 12/07/09 03:03 AM
Hey folks, over the course of the last 10 days or so I have been pretty diligent with recon efforts. I have found very little of import. I am becoming convinced (presently and for now) that WW is not returning communication with OM (I realize HIS efforts to reach her are a problem, and this will be addressed, possibly in plan B). I do know that she is still wayward and foggy by the things she says. And she did go out with a friend the other night where I know she was talking to a recently divorced guy (I'm plan Aing - and trying not to freak out about this).

This thought has occurred to me: What if I never find anything substantial in my efforts to discover any further A? What if she never rekindles the original EA or develops a new one? (I expect if left to her own and with enough time, either WOULD occur).

I was planning to drop into plan B (with much guidance from folks here and Steve, who I'm hoping to talk to again this week) in early January. Can I plan B her on the grounds that she's acting like a school girl in heat?

At this point it appears her aim is simply to find a place to land when she walks away from her family, I really don't feel she has anything substantial. So the plan B 'path back home' would have to be somewhat different than a traditional Jon & Sue (from SAA) type: "...meet the conditions of: stop going out." (At this point I don't even have solid evidence there's anything to worry about except my gut instinct and her pattern of behavior) Can you plan B on that?

Does this sound right?
My concern is how long can I continue plan A? The w/e's are tough b/c I know what she's going to do. Since she's also a SAHM (mostly) I'm sick most of the day thinking about what access she has to her little fantasy world. She's w/d'ing love units when she talks about needing "space" and when she goes out. I've really only been in plan A for a couple of weeks (if you start counting when I actually started doing it correctly) and I can go for a while, but...have these questions in my mind. I'm afraid if I plan A too long, I might be tempted to throw in the towel b/c she will have LB'd me into apathetic oblivion. Any help would be appreciated.

Optimism
Posted By: catperson Re: Another EA Story - questions - 12/07/09 04:28 AM
I'm no expert, but I've read here that sometimes people set a REAL, hard date, at which point they have to reassess things. And maybe set aside some questions that you force yourself to answer at that point - if you answer yes, you stick around some more, if you answer no, you go ahead and go to Plan B. Does that make sense? It kind of takes some of the control out of your hands, and gives you some relief.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - questions - 12/07/09 10:32 PM
Opt....

I bumped up an old thread for you..(i can't do that linky thing.....too much work for a computer illiterate like me...).

Anyway, its titled..."IT'S OVER SHE'S STAYING TO WORK ON OUR MARRIAGE"....by a great guy, TOOMUCHTOOSOON. He and I got here around the same time when we were dealing with our spouse's A's. Anyway, you could learn a lot from it....

not2fun
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - questions - 12/08/09 02:27 AM
Originally Posted by not2fun
Opt....

I bumped up an old thread for you..(i can't do that linky thing.....too much work for a computer illiterate like me...).

Anyway, its titled..."IT'S OVER SHE'S STAYING TO WORK ON OUR MARRIAGE"....by a great guy, TOOMUCHTOOSOON. He and I got here around the same time when we were dealing with our spouse's A's. Anyway, you could learn a lot from it....

not2fun

Excellent N2F, thanks much. I'll look for it right now.
I've dropped another long-winded post below of a sort of recent development. I'd appreciate your (and others') input.

opt

[edited to add: WHOA, it's 154 pages! You might have to give me a synopsis, but I'll try to at least skim it tonight. According to the last page they got to recovery. Seems like a million miles away to me right now, but I have hope.
Posted By: optimism OMG! Ambushed by Fog Babble! - 12/08/09 02:31 AM
Got a call from WW today during work �I�m really depressed�
This is the second time we�ve been down this road in about a week. I was hoping for a �I don�t know she I�ve done�.�
No such luck, of course.
So, when I got home, I did my best but got dragged into a few R discussions including some talk about D. A lot of it...
I was able to smooth over most of my mistakes and by the end of the night we were hugging and joking a little.
The jist of it:
�We just can�t communicate�
�It was never about the OM� (and my favorite part) �I now know it wasn�t about the OM because he�s out of my life and I still don�t love you�
�I�m done, burned out working on the M� (I wanted to ask when she was planning to start�)
�you�ve never known what I wanted, it�s amazing to me how unintuitive you are�
�the �friendship� [that kills me] was just a band-aid over a gaping wound in the relationship�
�You won�t cooperate with me at all about my separation from you� (I refuse to move out, thanks MB)
�you seem like a robot� (because I wont engage in her damaging dialogues)
�You�re weird behavior [plan A], is actually pushing me away from you, making us more distant�
*** now, here�s where we get to something interesting:
I have been reading the �5 Love Languages� and I have come to strongly believe that her primary love language is �words of affirmation�/communication (and maybe to some extent quality time- with communication). So, I honestly am feeling that the part of part A about not talking about the relationship has been a huge LB overall for WW. So, I have decided that I have to �talk about R� to some extent but have boundaries � but ONLY enough to get her to talk about her feelings, which is what I think she really wants to talk about anyway. Previously when I walked out on R discussions, I think I was missing a hidden opportunity to deposit Love Units (and in turn inadvertently taking some out).

Ultimately I was able to turn things around a little by telling her (sincerely) that my �acting strange� lately was a legitimate effort to be a better person and be someone that she could love again. That wasn�t getting me very far, so I opened up a little more and let her in on the fact that another motive was that I sincerely felt that she was having an affair (didn�t accuse her, just said what I felt) and that I hoped I could appear more attractive to her than the other guy. I also made the extra effort to let her know that I was not judging her about any of it and I was trying to understand her position.

I also let her know that one of the reasons I don�t know what she wants is that we�ve done a poor job spending time together (a problem that undoubtedly lead to the A). [NOT discussed: My hope is to ask at counseling tomorrow night if we could plan to spend just 15 minutes a night of undivided attention. I figure the first several times might be uncomfortable, but it�s a start, and I believe it is one of her top EN�s, so it goes right along with plan A.]
Anyway, this all seemed to calm her down somewhat. I�m also hoping that letting her know how I felt about her extramarital activities has the effect of at least making her think twice about pursuing them (that might be too much to hope for�.)

opt
Posted By: catperson Re: OMG! Ambushed by Fog Babble! - 12/08/09 05:24 AM
Set up a jigsaw puzzle. Work on it each night as a way to 'unwind' before you go to bed. Help her find her pieces. Accidentally brush her hand as you reach for a piece.
Posted By: not2fun Re: OMG! Ambushed by Fog Babble! - 12/08/09 11:40 PM
Opt,

I am going to give you a condensed version of TMTS thread. You will miss the IMPORTANT key points of it. But I will give you a brief start....Mrs. TMTS starts an A, thus begins the fogbabble. "I-you-but-I'm-not-in-love-with-you....I need "time"....I want a divorce....we can remain "friends"....", you know what I mean. TMTS finds MB and starts a thread. He follows Plan A to a T. Yes, he made mistakes, had set backs, but he stayed the course. He ACTIVELY met her EN'S, avoided LB'S, and he did this with NO EXPECTATIONS. He came her to vent, even to have a few laughs (what can I say, you tend to make friends with those who are going through similiar things...). He set a date for his Plan B, starting the day she was going to MOVE OUT. Endured going through mediation with her (a requirement in Canada....). And then things came to a head on the day she was set to move out......yes, there is a happy RECONCILED ending. He doesn't post here any more, but I email with him occassionaly and they are doing well......

Now back to YOU.....

You want the good news or the bad???.....ok good first....


Originally Posted by optimism
Got a call from WW today during work �I�m really depressed�
This is the second time we�ve been down this road in about a week.


TO ME, this is good. She is still attached to YOU. Noticed she called YOU. This is good. Yes, I realize she just spouted a bunch of fogbabble, but she is leaning on YOU......That right there is hope to me....(BUT,,,,,MB ain't about Plan Hope....)


Originally Posted by opt
I was hoping for a �I don�t know she I�ve done�.�
No such luck, of course.
So, when I got home, I did my best but got dragged into a few R discussions including some talk about D. A lot of it...
I was able to smooth over most of my mistakes and by the end of the night we were hugging and joking a little.

Ok, this is not bad. It sounds like you handled it very well. Good for you......and actually, I would like to amend my no R/M/A talk to LIMIT your R/M/A talk. When SHE initiates this, just stick the your mantra of "I know our M wasn't all it could be, BUT I truly think we can make this work." Start talking about EN'S and LB's (not ones that she does or doesn't do but just general talk of what they are....). But you mostly need to show her your willingness to do this through your actions....
Originally Posted by opt
The jist of it:
�We just can�t communicate�
�It was never about the OM� (and my favorite part) �I now know it wasn�t about the OM because he�s out of my life and I still don�t love you�
�I�m done, burned out working on the M� (I wanted to ask when she was planning to start�)
�you�ve never known what I wanted, it�s amazing to me how unintuitive you are�
�the �friendship� [that kills me] was just a band-aid over a gaping wound in the relationship�
�You won�t cooperate with me at all about my separation from you� (I refuse to move out, thanks MB)
�you seem like a robot� (because I wont engage in her damaging dialogues)
�You�re weird behavior [plan A], is actually pushing me away from you, making us more distant�

This is all fogbabble....to be taken with a grain of salt....Except the part of him being out of her life....

Isn't this guy a neighbor??...How do you KNOW that NC is in place??

Maybe she just saw him driving down the street. Maybe they bumped into each other at the local Jiffy Mart. Maybe not. But IF they have, it sets the clock back at zero and brings back those "feelings" for the OM.....I have a hunch there is contact going on of some fashion.....

Now, good to see you reading 5LL, but what about SAA???....I've asked you this before yet you haven't answered....What are her top 3 EN'S???? and what are you ACTIVELY doing every day to met them????

not2fun

Posted By: not2fun Re: OMG! Ambushed by Fog Babble! - 12/08/09 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by catperson
Set up a jigsaw puzzle. Work on it each night as a way to 'unwind' before you go to bed. Help her find her pieces. Accidentally brush her hand as you reach for a piece.

I LOVE this idea.....

not2fun
Posted By: optimism Re: OMG! Ambushed by Fog Babble! - 12/09/09 03:06 AM
Thanks N2F for summarizing. I'll go back for the details but I appreciate your efforts to give me the rundown. I can see some of the similarities, and I can also tell he's a good guy. If you talk to him tell him folks like me continue to draw from his experience.

Thanks for your assessments as well. I appreciate your insights. To answer a few questions:
The guy IS a neighbor. I only know from what recon I've been able to do that there has been one email and a couple of texts which she has not answered. I have no way of knowing if she's talking to him on the phone, but am working on VAR's. I suppose it's entirely possible that they are meeting somewhere and I'm also looking into a GPS tracker. I totally understand the concept of the clock moving back each time he tries to contact her; I worked in mental health and substance abuse clinics and I see the correlation between addiction to drugs/alcohol and addiction to A.

Here's the thing N2F (and others reading): I think she may be done with the original OM. I honestly believe (I know what your going to say, but follow along with me) that I know when she's lying. I think she has NOT established appropriate boundaries with him but I do believe when she says she's done with him she is effectively done with the EA, for now. (again, follow along with me, and put that club down smirk ).

THE RUB: (feedback please). I totally believe that she has bounced from one EA (original OM) to the concept of being single/available or even the potential of OM#2 (could be the guy she was talking to at the bar mentioned above, or a friend of the family who happens to be recently divorced- I'm keeping a watchful eye on that one, let me tell you).

She's still way foggy and not ready to let go of all the fun she had last summer during the A. Is it uncommon for someone to let go of an A with every intention to simply start another, or at least make herself available for it? I know when I was wayward, the thrill of the possibility was very alluring; I doubt if I would have given that up without a fight if challenged.

Trust me, I'd love to move away from OM. But that takes time even if I did get her agreement (both names on the house). Right now I feel like I have to play with the cards in my hand. There's some talk in the hood about OM moving. Everyone hates him and he used to be pretty popular around here; I think he's miserable.

Her EN's are leisure time and conversation and openness/honesty (imagine that). I am actively trying to meet EN's. She's not comfortable with it and claims that it is pushing her away from me.

HOWEVER, what I think is really pushing her away from me is that at the same time, I'm trying to disrupt the A (which I still consider to be active insofar as NC was recently broken for sure) as well as trying to interfere with further developing potential EA's by coming home when she doesn't expect it and asking lightly probing questions. Oooh, she hates feeling watched.
IS IT OKAY that I'm doing this???

I'm more than half way through SAA (so little time to read when I feel like spending time with the kids/family, reading posts/threads, etc). I've been real good about LB's I think.

You never really gave me any bad news. Let me have it - I know there are things I can do better. I also know this stuff takes time to develop so I'm trying to be patient.

Want some good news?
She finally agreed to talk to Steve and has an appointment for Friday am.
Pray.

In the meantime she was badmouthing MB tonight and saying that I've been "indoctrinated" in the philosophy and using "catch phrases" (NOT true b/c I've actually been careful not to use words from the books). She likens it to a cult. Funny, b/c I have really been careful not to mention it, I clear my history and hide the books. She's also "nervous" to spend the money (fog talk - I wanted to remind her how much divorce costs but bit my tongue). Oh well, hopefully Steve can cut through some of the bullsh!t, but she's pretty tough (comes by that honestly).

thanks again for all the help.
optimism

Posted By: Linus Re: OMG! Ambushed by Fog Babble! - 12/09/09 12:31 PM
opt - her agreeing to talk is an awesome, huge step. Good luck Friday. I'll be looking for updates.

Also, it seems like she's still in the very, very early stages of withdrawal, so the fogtalk will continue to be deep. Keep working through it. That was difficult for me - there were times I thought I'd puke (sorry for the visual) - but I knew I had to let it go. It's still there once in a while, but much better.
Posted By: not2fun Re: OMG! Ambushed by Fog Babble! - 12/09/09 01:52 PM
rotflmao......yep, that's us, the MB cult...(I'm making some cyanide koolaide as I type.... ;)).....my H said the same thing


Here's something else to remember.....

Your sitch is NO different than any other affair and your WW is not behaving any differently than any other wayward. They all act the same, sound the same.....she is a drug addicted, fogged out wayward that will LIE about anything in order to get their fix....


Not2fun
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: OMG! Ambushed by Fog Babble! - 12/09/09 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by not2fun
Your sitch is NO different than any other affair and your WW is not behaving any differently than any other wayward. They all act the same, sound the same.....she is a drug addicted, fogged out wayward that will LIE about anything in order to get their fix....
It's this knowledge that made me decide to try to rescue my M. Before I learned this, I had decided to exit the M as quickly and as effortlessly as possible.

At times, I wonder why I want to put myself through the pain and agony of doing so, but then I remember: I married the woman I love. That has to count for something...
Posted By: catperson Re: OMG! Ambushed by Fog Babble! - 12/09/09 04:08 PM
Quote
I married the woman I love.
And she's probably still in there. Not a guarantee, but probably.
Posted By: optimism Re: OMG! Ambushed by Fog Babble! - 12/09/09 10:30 PM
Linus, you know I'll have updates. Let's hope she goes through with it.
Fred, I hear ya. I woulda been a mess by now (as would this family) without you folks, this site, etc.
Not2Fun - I've been catching up on that thread you told me about (TMTS); you're right there's a ton of good insight there. (oh, and pass the koolaide, si vous pleas)

ALL:
I've highlighted some of the questions I had in my post above. I was wondering if they could be addressed directly.
And I'm still wondering if you can plan B a wayward without a blatant A happening...

thanks.
opt

Posted By: not2fun Re: OMG! Ambushed by Fog Babble! - 12/09/09 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
Here's the thing N2F (and others reading): I think she may be done with the original OM.

There is a big difference between you think and what you KNOW.....

Originally Posted by opt
I honestly believe (I know what your going to say, but follow along with me) that I know when she's lying.

yep....you are in a BS fog....I said the same friggin thing on here for 3 1/2 MONTHS!!!!....but my WH proved me wrong...Your Wife is a Wayward Wife. They LIE. About EVERYTHING. At all times.....believe nothing that she says.....oh...and just to let you know, EVERY single time my WH wanted to have a talk like yours did the other day, it was when "they" (WH and COW) had tried to "end" things..... sigh.....EVERY SINGLE TIME.....



Originally Posted by ]Is it uncommon for someone to let go of an A with every intention to simply start another, or at least make herself available for it?[/quote
This is really irrelevant. But i would suggest asking Steve, but what you SHOULD be doing is Plan A things....

Originally Posted by opt
I know when I was wayward, the thrill of the possibility was very alluring; I doubt if I would have given that up without a fight if challenged.

But we are talking about your WW, not you....

Originally Posted by opt
IS IT OKAY that I'm doing this???

yes, as long as you are asking in a loving and non love-busting fashion.....


Originally Posted by opt
Want some good news?
She finally agreed to talk to Steve and has an appointment for Friday am.
Pray.

This is the BEST news......until then, Plan A, Plan A, Plan A......
Posted By: optimism Re: OMG! Ambushed by Fog Babble! - 12/10/09 02:25 AM
Thanks NotTwoFun, I knew you'd come through with some direct reponses. Just what I needed to hear as I didn't know there was BS fog, but I'm definitely prone to it.

I'll start being a lot more careful about believing actions and not words. And continue to recon.

I realized tonight (while reading SAA), that I have a tendency to LB (DJ's) in response to her honesty (before the A obviously, but also since). That's a difficult one b/c it hurts so much to hear her say she's with so-and-so. So I modify: continue to be disruptive but less LB's in the process.

No puzzle yet (Cat, I like the idea and will pursue it asap); but I did write her a poem! She's making it difficult to meet EN's but I figure she can't refuse to be read a poem, right? NO expectations - just read it and kinda went along with my business. It's a good thing I had your advice of NO EXPECTATIONS ringing in my ears, because you KNOW what I got for my trouble: a Selfish Demand "please stop being jealous."
I just kind of laughed inside; I know I'm the one with the plan, and the level-headed people supporting me.

thanks again Two, Plan A straight ahead.

Opt
Posted By: optimism Re: OMG! Ambushed by Fog Babble! - 12/11/09 02:40 AM
Quote
yep....you are in a BS fog....I said the same friggin thing on here for 3 1/2 MONTHS!!!!....but my WH proved me wrong...Your Wife is a Wayward Wife. They LIE. About EVERYTHING. At all times.....believe nothing that she says.....oh...and just to let you know, EVERY single time my WH wanted to have a talk like yours did the other day, it was when "they" (WH and COW) had tried to "end" things..... .....EVERY SINGLE TIME.....

not2fun,
I've been thinking all day about what you said. It's starting to sink in. I have to consider her wayward until her actions show she's not, and those actions must be conclusive. It's the damndest thing being in a BS fog; you guys have shown me the light several times in the last few weeks ("WW is LYING!") and you're always right, but then my fog comes back and I start believing words again. I guess I'm hoping you'll continue to be there with your spot lights when you see me getting fogged in.

At this point I have to admit that I don't know what she's up to (maybe my recon hasn't been good enough), but I have to assume it's something. If I'm wrong I'm wrong; but I can't rely on her for information.

I also read a post by a vet from a while ago (maybe MrsW or Resonance) about a WH who, for his PRIDE, held on to the notion that even though the A was over he the A wasn't about the OW it was about the problems in the M. If I'm not dealing with some of that yet, I'm sure I will be. W HATES to be wrong (not a DJ, just a fact), and historically has difficulty admitting it when she is.

We have a long road ahead of us.
For now: Plan A my butt off.

Optimism
Posted By: SusieQ Re: OMG! Ambushed by Fog Babble! - 12/11/09 03:26 AM
I just saw the news that your WW agreed to counseling with SH. That's fantastic. Keep us posted!
Posted By: optimism WW talked to SH - 12/12/09 02:56 AM
Quote
I just saw the news that your WW agreed to counseling with SH

Not much to report about WW's phone visit with Steve yet because she had to go to work before I got home from work.
She did call me in the afternoon (a rarity lately) and say she had talked to him but didn't have time to say anything about their conversation.

Here's the thing - I sensed a bit of something in her voice that was encouraging (hopefully I wasn't hallucinating).
I guess the next step is for me to have another call with him, which I'm totally up for. She's still worried about the money aspect of it (imagine that- after absconding with 10 grand from our joint account after the exposure!); I still don't know how much she thinks divorce costs... sigh I'll have to figure out how to address that one, though as I'm really not doing the Independent Behavior thing anymore (a huge part of how we got where we are). Any advice on how to word my position would be helpful. I believe SAA (and other MB material) talks about negotiation, but I'm not sure we're at that point yet.

I'll check in after I've had a chance to touch base with WW about the call, although that might not be for a couple of days as I have been trying to plan things "spontaneously" (WITH her consent so it's not a LB - see I'm catching on) so that it's more difficult for her to go out and see her boyfriend or whatever she's up to these days when she's exercising her "right to have some space" within the marriage. ugh.

-Thanks for your interest-

Opt

Posted By: not2fun Re: WW talked to SH - 12/12/09 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
Any advice on how to word my position would be helpful.

Opt,

I was wondering how the phone call went. Too bad she isn't giving much up about it, but don't let that fret you. She is probably just letting it all sink in around there in that fog, and is wrestling with the TRUTH about what she has done. It will be a very hard time for her. I wouldn't push her to talk about it. Let her come to you about it.....if she wants to talk, GREAT, if not, let it be for now. Let Steve do his job, and you do yours.....

Which is .......

PLAN A....1,2, and 3



Originally Posted by opt
I'll check in after I've had a chance to touch base with WW about the call, although that might not be for a couple of days as I have been trying to plan things "spontaneously" (WITH her consent so it's not a LB - see I'm catching on) so that it's more difficult for her to go out and see her boyfriend or whatever

This is good. Yes, you want to keep her BUSY as possible with YOU.

As far as the money thing, let it go for now. It is not the most pressing thing for you to be dealing with. She already took it (huge LB for you, I know), but there's not really a WHOLE lot you can do about it without reducing it to a LOVE BUSTING war. I would ask Steve on your next appt. his advice about it, and until then do NOTHING......

Get busy this weekend,,,,,I EXPECT to hear a full report of your activities....

not2fun




Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/14/09 02:39 AM
Hey thanks for keeping up with me Not2Fun. It's encouraging to know I have the support.

Quote
.....if she wants to talk, GREAT, if not, let it be for now.
Thanks for saying that as this was my gut, but I wasn't too sure if I should bring it up. As expected the w/e was busy (and pretty good with a visit from old mutual friends). I probably could have asked "so, you didn't get a chance to tell me how your conversation with Steve went" tonight, but the circumstances didn't seem perfect. Now that I've read the above, I'll leave it alone until she comes to me with it. [NOTE: SH even told me in our first conversation that HE's the coach and we're the players. I suppose a quarterback doesn't discuss the play with the RB in the huddle, he just executes it; that's how I'll look at it).]

*The only reason I would like to know what he said is that I am trying to read her behavior and if it is influenced by their conversation (it's mostly a curiosity thing). For instance, she expressed no interest in going out tonight even though she hasn't been out since last Saturday and has a busy work schedule through next Sunday, so there won't really be anymore opportunities.
No matter, I'll set up an appointment to talk to SH in the next week and get further instructions and stick with that.

As you can see, then, no talk about what he said. From body language and other cues, I can see that she seems to be digesting things. This all must be so bazaar for her. I've never been this nice without daily LB's before. I'm realizing how gifted I was at destroying my own good will in the past (e.g. with expectations, resentments, and a unruly Taker). Things are so different when you have a plan.

Quote
As far as the money thing, let it go for now.
I didn't make myself very clear. I am not worried about the 10 G's. It was inheritance money from her Grandma and if she feels like she's entitled to it I'm not going to let it bother me. I figure it to be "FOGGY MATH" considering every penny of my salary for 15 years has been OURS not "MINE to SHARE." I'll go after half of it if she divorces me; but my plan is to not have that happen.


Further update on my plan A: (mostly for me...)
1)NO LB's. (execpt in the heat of the cooking fray I couldn't found the muffin tin in the cabinet and said to daughter "leave it to your mother to put something away when I wanted it out" - huge LB but I don't think WW heard me. I just remembered this - I'll have to talk to DD when I get a chance...
2)Friday night cleaning the house (with the kids) while she was at work. Left a space heater in her room so when she got home would be nice and warm (I don't usually support the idea of her sleeping separate, but I made this concession since she worked late). Made a stellar meal for 6 adults and 3 kids Saturday night (caused some tension b/c she gets very nervous about this type of thing, but I kept real cool and had everything planned out perfect*).
Sunday I laid around as much as I could b/c one of her identified annoying habits for me is "always trying to be productive/not relaxing." Watched a show with her.

3)NO EXPECTATIONS (good thing too, since there was not much show of any appreciation on her part. cool)

I was starting to get a little down. It helps to check in here and see what others are up to, as well as see I have some folks pulling for me (even if they don't come out and post). I was telling my Mother I have an "online support group." Sounds better than message board.

I've been doing a pretty solid consistent plan A for about 3 weeks (started before that but screwed it up so bad, I started my clock over essentially). The best I can figure, her last contact (unreciprocated, but it still counts) was about 2 weeks ago. We have a LONG way to go. She still has the secret cell phone and gets antsy when I disrupt possible clandestine activities (not a good sign).

She goes on a trip on Dec 26 for two weeks with DS and her Dad & his finance. That's two more weeks, plus 2 weeks of her absence (essentially 7 weeks total of solid plan A.) I figured I'd use her return week as a period of re-evaluation and then possibly start looking at a plan B as needed (and with SH's guidance). - VETS: how should I look at this trip she has planned? How does it play into the whole plan A thing?

Opt

PS: So, about the money thing above: I was trying to say that I'm not sure how to address the $200/per call to SH (and possible block of calls for $800) as WW doens't feel as strongly about the justification of the expenditure. IN the past I would have just done it (independent behavior). Any suggestions on how to state my position that the money is well spent? To me it's a no-brainer and I compare it to the bank-drainer process of divorce, but she's got grass-is-greener syndrome and seems to think D pays for itself. I also have the sentiment that I wish she worked more (not just for the money but it would keep her away from the temptations of her 'friends.') I think it's ML that says a lot of WW's/SAHM's are simply spoiled. We really don't have a lot of extra money, especially with oil bills looming. So it's a subject with many pitfalls and opportunities for DJ's etc.
Posted By: gg615 Re: WW talked to SH - 12/14/09 03:04 AM
Quote
She still has the secret cell phone and gets antsy when I disrupt possible clandestine activities (not a good sign).

She goes on a trip on Dec 26 for two weeks with DS and her Dad & his finance. That's two more weeks, plus 2 weeks of her absence (essentially 7 weeks total of solid plan A.) I figured I'd use her return week as a period of re-evaluation and then possibly start looking at a plan B as needed (and with SH's guidance). - VETS: how should I look at this trip she has planned? How does it play into the whole plan A thing?


Are any family members on the trip helping you put pressure on the A. Can the family member watch over her and make it more difficult for her to use secret cell phone?

Gg
Posted By: _SOL Re: WW talked to SH - 12/14/09 03:21 AM
Sounds like you are making the right moves Opt. I'm going to use your cooking a meal idea. I have NEVER cooked our family a meal in our 13 yrs together. Not a real one anyway. Should be interesting anyway.

Count me in as part of your 'online support group'.

By the way, I tried a phone session with Jennifer. My wife did not respond favorably as she is still in EA with OM and won't give it up yet. I got a lot out of it and may try again or give Steve a call.
Posted By: Linus Re: WW talked to SH - 12/14/09 12:23 PM
Hey opt (you too SoL) - count me in on the 'support group'. You guys have been there for me, and I'll do whatever I can for you.
Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/14/09 02:05 PM
Quote
Are any family members on the trip helping you put pressure on the A. Can the family member watch over her and make it more difficult for her to use secret cell phone?

gg,
sorry, I wasn't very clear. They're going to Antarctica. Her Dad has cancer and he's checking off a bucket list. He's taking WW, DS(13), and his fiance (who he dated for years while his wife was dying of emphasyma!). Not a lot of family support against infidelity, but the cell phone won't be a factor after about Dec 28th.

I'm hoping the two week trip serves as a bit of WD from her little fantasy and break up some of the fog.

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/14/09 02:16 PM
Quote
I have NEVER cooked our family a meal in our 13 yrs together. Not a real one anyway. Should be interesting anyway.

You'll do great - piece of cake compared to what you've been through serving your country.

I just got one of those chickens that has an automatic thermometer that pops up when it's done (directions are usually on it - or refer to a basic cookbook). All you have to do is keep an eye on it (and plan to be around for a couple hours).
Steam some vegetables (broccoli's easy - buy a steamer if you don't have one, it's like a mesh basket you put in the bottom of the pan with a half cup of water) and drop a bunch of cheese that you lovingly grated while the chicken was baking -(15 min prep time total on the greens).
Peel and cut some potatoes , boil them and put in a mixing bowl when soft, mix with a beater along with a bunch of butter and sour cream (and some bacon bits that you make ahead of time).

I never really cooked before either. If I can do it, you can too.
You'll be a home town hero in more ways than one!

Opt
Posted By: not2fun Re: WW talked to SH - 12/14/09 02:53 PM
How come you aren't going??
Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/14/09 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by not2fun
How come you aren't going??


It's a pretty serious trip. Not just a vacation but somewhat of an expedition, including crossing one of the toughest bodies of water in the world (can't recall the geography right now); daughter 8 a little too young for it and the expense was also restrictive. FIL threw it out in front of us a few months ago and it was booked - we felt like the experience for DS(13) was potentially too important to pass up.

Not much more to it than that. Me and daughter will have a good bonding time. Then, my sister is coming out to visit for a week; a very welcome visit as she has been real supportive to me through all this. My immediate family is all several states away.

Optimism



Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/15/09 03:51 PM
Not sure where I�m at right now except that I�m pulling off a pretty good plan A. But feeling a little defeated right now b/c I found a text on WW�s phone from OM dated yesterday. He indicated that they hadn�t had any communication, but I don�t really believe it; either way just that the text came in is problematic enough. I didn�t say anything. I am also discouraged b/c last week on Wednesday she got a slew of texts and then went back to sleeping with the secret phone again (my recon can only tell me how many texts, not where they�re from � so I have to have access the phone to compare records and see if she�s deleted any or, as in today�s case, forgot to delete any).

We also talked a little about SH last night. A very little. I told her I have an appointment set for Wednesday am to speak with him again (trying to disclose all plans as independent behavior has been a huge LB in the marriage). I had made the appointment on the grounds that the only thing she had stated about her conversation with him is that he wanted to talk to me again. Here�s what got me: she really hemmed and hawed about the expense and something like �I just don�t see what it�s going to do for us,� you know, stuff like is the benefit worth the expense?

It�s like she wants the marriage to fail!!

On the plus side.
A couple of things I haven�t mentioned in previous posts. Plan A has given me the strength to stay out of some VERY familiar damaging scripts.
On Saturday we were wrapping presents together (almost like undivided attention, a step in the right direction). She was all kinds of down and started in with some depressing statements �Do you suppose I am just meant to be alone?� [it�s like she�s trying to bait me into a negative conversation � which previously would have worked very well and it would have ruined the day]
Later that day I was preparing dinner for 6 adults and 3 kids. It was quite tense but I had everything planned to the letter. She again seemed to take opportunities to get me into a fight, like in the old days. But I simply remained in control and stayed strong even in the tense atmosphere. [is she trying to TEST my resolve?] BTW, not one �thank you� or �good dinner� �.I love it!
Last night she made a nice family dinner and then seemed like she was trying to sabotage it by inviting the neighbor girl (my son�s friend). I was immediately disappointed considering that we need family time right now, and I know she knows that. Ultimately she didn�t stay, but the atmosphere was SO tense it was palpable. It�s like she was itching to have a blow out over dinner. Later she said she was tense about some phone calls to make about daughter�s school Christmas party (wow!). Anyway, again I was able to barely side-step it all by just not playing into it. [But it�s so hard when she seems to be working AGAINST happiness and serenity.]
Is this normal Wayward Behavior also???


Side note:
Plus plus: This am I started the laundry and she started in with there not being �enough water for all the showers.� In the old days, my taker would have pitched a fit whining and crying about how I was just trying to get the work done (that she could have done yesterday while she was home all day); but not anymore � MB has taught me to stay away from that LB - DJ�s and AO�s all up in it! Thanks MB

Optimism




Posted By: Linus Re: WW talked to SH - 12/15/09 04:26 PM
Stay with it, opt. There are some good signs there. Yes, you're getting a lot of fog-talk and I know that's it's extremely difficult to take all that crap, but in the end you're better off.

This is important - I don't believe that she wants the marriage to fail! Being married to you is an important part of her fantasy life. You just have to continue to show her that it's the BEST PART of her life, and the other piece - the EA - is getting in the way and has got to stop.
Posted By: _SOL Re: WW talked to SH - 12/15/09 04:42 PM
I'm not sure if her behavior is normal or not, maybe the Vets can chime in there, but I can tell you that it mirrors what my WW is saying/doing.

I am also doing backflips to take care of domestic and family responsibilities all with zero appreciation or even acknowledgement. I know how hard and frustrating it is. I keep hoping that there will be an "ah-ha" moment when WW will suddenly see what I am and have been doing.

I am having a problem with "not expecting anything" from WW too.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: WW talked to SH - 12/15/09 04:48 PM
You are doing a great Plan A. Keep it up.

I think this may have been mentioned at the start of this thread, but since I haven't heard you say anything about it I have to ask...

Have you considered that you won't make much progress until you guys don't live on the same street as OM? That him living right there will keep her triggered and foggy?
Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/15/09 09:19 PM
Quote
This is important - I don't believe that she wants the marriage to fail! Being married to you is an important part of her fantasy life. You just have to continue to show her that it's the BEST PART of her life, and the other piece - the EA - is getting in the way and has got to stop.

That's right Linus. I've read this thought in other threads and I have not been good about applying it to my own situation. Thanks for mentioning it and thanks for the encouragement.

I hope you'll continue to keep us posted on your recovery!

Opti
Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/15/09 09:20 PM
Thanks SOL.
Trying to fight the good fight. Along side ya in many ways.
Opt
Posted By: _SOL Re: WW talked to SH - 12/15/09 09:34 PM
I think we all get somewhat blinded to our own situation. Maybe hoping our waywards are somewhat different than others.
Posted By: catperson Re: WW talked to SH - 12/15/09 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Have you considered that you won't make much progress until you guys don't live on the same street as OM? That him living right there will keep her triggered and foggy?
Worth repeating!

Quote
Any suggestions on how to state my position that the money is well spent?
You say "money is NEVER an issue if it is spent to keep our children's family together." Hard to argue that logic.
Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/15/09 09:39 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
You are doing a great Plan A. Keep it up.

I think this may have been mentioned at the start of this thread, but since I haven't heard you say anything about it I have to ask...

Have you considered that you won't make much progress until you guys don't live on the same street as OM? That him living right there will keep her triggered and foggy?

Susie, thanks so much for checking back in. And thanks for the encouragement on my plan A.
Believe you me, I completely understand (and have since the beginning) the magnitude of having posom living next door. I just have no reasonable means of addressing it (excuse the pun), since WW has yet to fully acknowledge (at least openly) that she ever did anything wrong! In her mind the M is failing due to issues completely unrelated to the "inappropriate emotional relationship" (the closest she has come to calling it what it is: adultry). Since we both own the home, anything I do that moves toward moving will be independent behavior as she is not interested in selling the house right now (although I could pursue it further on grounds of just improving quality of life...).
There is some talk of posom moving out, but I'm not counting on any of that right now.

What I'm focusing on right now is consistently putting my best foot forward with plan A; and making long-standing changes in my behavior (and ultimately my character). I feel her testing me (even if subconsciously) is ultimately going to reveal to her that I'm in this for the long hual. I've identified my tendency to LB (all over the place) and am committed to eliminating that flaw in my character, not just for her but for the kids and mostly me. This is what I can control right now.

I also think my plan A might have to be longer than average because I spent so many years using destructive scripts, un-doing good deeds with LB's, and allowing overactive Taker to reign (strangely this is mostly at home...in public people literally think I'm saintlike). Truthfully, I need to prove to myself for a good amount of time that I can be a better person. I feel that if I haven't proved it to myself, I most certainly can't expect WW to trust that those demons have been expelled.

I will talk to Steve again bright and early tomorrow. I have a list of questions to ask him.
e.g.
-how can I address the proximity to OM issue
-how can I get her away from the secret cell phone (without LB of IB)
-what can he tell me about his conversation with her
-can I plan B without direct evidence of overt A continuing
-how does he view the 2 weeks she will spend away and isolated (possibly helpful or not)
among others


If anyone has questions they think I should add to my list, I am all ears!

Optimism
Posted By: turtlehead Re: WW talked to SH - 12/15/09 10:10 PM
Hi Opt,
Just catching up with your thread. You sure are growing by leaps and bounds. Nice to see.

I think catperson gave a fantastic response for when WW complains about "wasting" money on sessions with Steve. I'd add that to my list of things to ask him, though. I guarantee he's got lots of experience with reluctant spouses and money objections are a no-brainer way for the wayward to resist.

I bet you dollars to doughnuts I know why your wife is not thanking you for the dinner, why she's nagging you about the water, picking fights, simmering on the verge of exploding while the neighbor girl is over, and so forth. She has made up her mind that OM is dreamy and life with you is insufferable. Her self talk right now is all about how irritating you are, but your Plan A is making it hard for her to continue in this vein. She's irritable and ready to blow up or pick a fight simply so she can soothe herself by saying "See, this was just a temporary act. He's an intolerable [censored]."

It all means your Plan A is working.

Regarding getting away from OM... you can't sell the house without committing a huge IB lovebuster... but if you were to get an attractive job offer from some place kind of far away, that would make it necessary for you to move. Just sayin'. I know jobs aren't exactly falling out of trees right now but it wouldn't hurt to put out some feelers.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: WW talked to SH - 12/15/09 11:10 PM
OK, it sounds like you are on the right track.

Just one thing to add....are you absolutely certain there is NO WAY you can go on this trip with your W??? I see it as such a huge great opportunity to reach your W, seeing as you two will be away from OM...
Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/16/09 03:02 AM
Thanks TH for the encouragement. There's been so much happening it's like I've become very adept in some areas but totally missed the boat on what should have been obvious. I'm lucky to be in a field that just might offer attractive options on the job front. I will definitely start looking around.

We had counseling tonight and WW sounded like she had made a little change in outlook. She actually used the term "fog" (although she isn't familiar enough with MB to have been applying it in that way). She said she felt like a "fog was lifting"
She also stated that she has suddenly developed some Christmas spirit and realized how incredibly selfish she has been for the past several weeks. These statement I think might have been influenced by her conversation with Steve, even if she doesn't realize it or wouldn't admit it openly.

I found some encouragement in those statements but I don't consider her trustworthy enough. There has really not a committment to NC or progressing the M. I need actions, not words.

But there were actions also: she has volunteered to help out at the church (lucky my computer didn't explode just now) on Friday night. This would have been the only real night she could have gone out to sew her oats. If she goes through with it, that would be one action that I'd like to see repeated.
Do you think I should offer to do it with her, or maybe this is something she needs to explore on her own, as an empowerment thing...

Sticking with plan A. Anxious to talk to SH tomorrow am.

Opt
Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/16/09 03:19 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
OK, it sounds like you are on the right track.

Just one thing to add....are you absolutely certain there is NO WAY you can go on this trip with your W??? I see it as such a huge great opportunity to reach your W, seeing as you two will be away from OM...

You know how stupid I feel that I never really thought about it like that? When the trip was presented it was just them and that was that. Unfortunately, it is a prohibitively expensive endeavor and quite impossible for us to join them. Maybe a missed opportunity, but I plan to make the best of it. Even considering doing some remodeling that she would not want to be around for (redoing some hardwood floors- the stink should be gone by the time they return).

I do appreciate the input. I would hope that if it had been a domestic trip, I would have noticed the possiblity for bonding and undivided attention time. Maybe as the M develops I'll learn to look at things differently. If we get to where I'm hoping we'll have a better M than ever before and I would expect the thought of being away from her for 2 weeks will hit me much differently.

I just remembered in counseling she said something else that caught my attention. Speaking of our comfort level with each other: "we're not there, YET"

Sticking with plan A for now.

Any thoughts on this: I'll get a few free minutes with my W. And I'm trying to build that time up, not to mention make it valuable and meaningful; listening, responding, and concentrating on giving my full attention. Invariably one of the kids will inturrupt and completely kill the moment. The opportunity to make a LD is then fading away. I actually get angry inside. How can I let the kids know we are not to be inturrupted when we're talking quietly without freaking them out or making it seem even more tense in the house than it already is at times?

Thanks again SQ and others for input and concern.

Opt
Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/16/09 03:23 AM
Quote
You say "money is NEVER an issue if it is spent to keep our children's family together." Hard to argue that logic.

Got it Cat. That's purrfect.

Sounds better than "Do you know how much divorce costs!!?"
wink
Posted By: catperson Re: WW talked to SH - 12/16/09 03:58 AM
Your kids are plenty old enough to understand what it means to build a marriage up. Just be honest with them. "This is a time when I could really use some extra minutes here and there to make brownie points with your mom; I want to make her fall in love with me all over again. So can I count on you guys to help me? If you ever see me and mom together, give us a few minutes alone, so I can show her how amazing I am, ok?"
Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/16/09 04:14 PM
Now, see, that's great. Why can't I think stuff like that through? It's like my BS fog has me paralyzed from the neck up.
Thanks Cat.

Had an amazing talk with Steve this am. Plan to transcribe as much as I can and put the highlights down here for others' benefit. Having said that, if anyone reading this has ever considered phone counsel with the Harleys - hugely recommended. Steve has a way of cutting through to what is pertinent to the situation at hand (YOUR situation). It was my second talk and my WW had a talk with him last week. There's no easy fix here folks, but he can lay out a plan and ten coach you through it.

Cat - we talked about the trip. He assigned me to write a letter/day for her to open as the trip goes. I'm to give them to her father to give her every day.
I have so much work to do. He also wants us both to re-do our LB and EN inventories. And call him as a group before she leaves (I hope she goes for it).

As far as the money. He pointed out that a WW often doesn't see the cost/benefit the same way BS does because they simply aren't in a mode to think it's possible to save the M in the first place. It would be like [censored] VanDyke asking for money to fix Chitti-chitty Bang-bang; he sees the potential, but the wife thinks it's ridiculous. (I'm paraphrasing and interpreting - he made no such reference!)
YKWIM...

Opt

Posted By: Linus Re: WW talked to SH - 12/16/09 04:19 PM
Good news opt - isn't progress a wonderful thing!
Posted By: optimism 2nd Talk with SH - 12/17/09 02:59 AM
Originally Posted by Linus
Good news opt - isn't progress a wonderful thing!

You're right Linus. Although the progress seems so incremental at times it's hard to see. But it's better than the alternative.

I feel like I'm turning a cruise ship around 180 degrees in the harbor. Lot of work but it doesn't even seem like the ship is moving.

Talked to WW about some of what Steve discussed with me. One concept was that of responsibility. To wit: it's my responsibility to meet the conditions that will make my wife be in love with me. The concept of unconditional love, therefore is largely fantastical, even mythological. I can elaborate in later posts, and I'm certainly not doing the discussion justice here; but he makes a very convincing argument.

Another important idea is that of the modification of one's belief system. Making changes in our behavior (like we're doing in plan A...) is not enough if we don't modify our belief system of what makes a marriage mutually enjoyable. He cautioned me that without it, going back to the behaviors that set up the atmosphere for WW's A will occur again sooner or later without a change in that belief system. (I've been thinking of it as a paradigm shift). My situation is a sad example of just how true this point is.

The changes I make this time around will be real, permanent and rooted in a better understanding of romantic love. Thanks to MB, this board, SH, SAA, HNHN, etc.

Keep it real.

Opt


Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/20/09 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by catperson
Your kids are plenty old enough to understand what it means to build a marriage up. Just be honest with them. "This is a time when I could really use some extra minutes here and there to make brownie points with your mom; I want to make her fall in love with me all over again. So can I count on you guys to help me? If you ever see me and mom together, give us a few minutes alone, so I can show her how amazing I am, ok?"

Cat,
Thanks. This was the perfect way to handle it. I had that talk with the kids a few days ago, and now all it takes is a "look" and they vacate the premisis. It's so subtle that WW is hardly the wiser for it and we've been able to have a few moments of UA time (a EN that WW is quite reluctant to allow me to offer her lately).
opt
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: WW talked to SH - 12/20/09 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
we've been able to have a few moments of UA time
UA time? Uninterrupted Affection? I can't find this acronym.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: WW talked to SH - 12/21/09 03:18 AM
Undivided Attention...

It comes for Dr Harley's Policy of Undivided Attention.

You did read the basic concepts, right?

Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: WW talked to SH - 12/21/09 03:31 AM
Ah, yes. I did a quick check on EN and didn't see it there. Thanks.
Posted By: Doormat_No_More Re: WW talked to SH - 12/21/09 04:11 AM
Right, UA isn't an EN. It is a summary of the Rule of Time, an entire rule all to itself. Mostly because you can't fill Love Banks if you don't spend time together... meeting any emotional need, or showing you can avoid Love Busters, DEMANDS that you spend time together.

IIRC, the only emotional needs which don't require the Rule of time are Financial Support, Family Commitment, Domestic Support, and Physical Attractiveness. Every other one requires you to spend time together.

Reminder of the four rules:
1. The rule of Protection. Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness.
2. The rule of Care. Meet your spouse's most important emotional needs.
3. The rule of Time. Take time to give your spouse your Undivided Attention (UA). This is understood to mean a minimum of 15 hours per week without distractions (like children!) when you are meeting each other's most important emotional needs. Typically, you're fulfilling the four you should not fulfill with any other member of the opposite sex: intimate conversation, sexual fulfillment, recreational companionship, and admiration.
4. The rule of Honesty. Be radically honest with your spouse.
Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/21/09 02:44 PM
Fred, Mark, Barnboy,
Thanks for checking in with me, guys. I was having a rough morning I think b/c I haven't been able to post and get any affirmation about things lately. I have come to rely on my 'on-line support group.' It helps me stay on track and know that I'm doing the right thing.

Since Thursday I've been feverishly writing letters for my WW to read while she's away on a 2 week trip (SH's suggestion). They will be distributed daily by her Father. I'm giving them to him on Christmas, the day before they leave.They are mostly love-letters but I'm not getting into any education (or, G-dforbid any DJ's, etc). A couple will just be quick notes. I'm also giving a few to DS who will also be on the trip.
I really hope she comes back next year with a new outlook, but I have no expectations and plan to continue with plan A.

Meanwhile, the w/e was so up and down (not dramatically, I'll elaborate later). I have a few things to update and am anxious to hear the board's perspective or even just get some encouragement. Plan A would be a lot easier if I didn't have to work for a living.

opt

PS: after WW and DS leave I'll have time to put down a few more notes from my conversation with Steve; I've been re-listening to it and there are a lot of good concepts in there. It's funny how you think you understand something until you actually discuss it live with someone who really knows what their talking about.
Posted By: catperson Re: WW talked to SH - 12/21/09 03:06 PM
Make sure in some of those letters that you include tidbits about your previous life together, happy times, etc., dates you went on...

Also include what your vision of the future would look like. Give her something to look forward to. What has she always wanted to do, that marriage got in the way of? Promise her that stuff.
Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/21/09 03:40 PM
Excellent Cat, I'll be sure to include all of those elements. I had been thinking of a couple of those things but not all.
opt
Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/21/09 03:56 PM
Excellent Cat, I'll be sure to include all of those elements. I had been thinking of a couple of those things but not all.
opt
Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/22/09 02:40 AM
It seems I have a couple minutes so I wanted to update my status. Over the w/e my WW actually kept her promise to volunteer at church with DS's youth activity. I thought she might bail. Then on Saturday night she had to work; Sunday no going out. I have been as diligent as possible with intel gathering and at this point either she's gone way underground or contact has all but halted at least for now. I don't expect it to continue b/c she has never really agreed to NC and has yet to put in place any real barriers. But the lack of contact has at least allowed plan A to be a little more effective.

So effective that she actually talked to me tonight - the closest thing to intimate conversation we've had in a looooong time. I was careful not to try to educate and I listened real intently. We got into a little of R discussion but just enough for me to let her open up a little. She stated that she was "waiting for good feelings for you to come, since you're doing all these nice things." She said she was feeling impatient. She said that she didn't want to "lead me on" into thinking she was on board, but that she wanted to enjoy the good-will I was showing her. I recalled that I had been having a tendency to react to her enjoyment of my plan A with a little too much affection (a couple of times this has happened) by initiating a hug - which would shut her down [it's such a learning process].

I tried hard to understand the whole thing from a MB/WW point of view and kept in mind there was probably fog and WD happening and who-knows-what kind of guilt issues.

Without trying to educate I tried to impress upon he that she could feel free to enjoy my efforts without reservation because basically they weren't going to stop. I explained that I had been shifting my belief system over the past several months and have come to appreciate a new understanding of what it means to care for a spouse. I explained that the change in my belief system was permanent. I expressed to her my sincere hope that it was her that was around to see the benefits of my new understanding in the future. I also was able to approach the subject of "ideal situation" (another SH concept) and was able to actually hear her say that she wanted to be in love with me.

After that she asked to go do some Christmas shopping with me. (!!). I had to pick up hampsters for daughter and was planning to do it tomorrow on my own. So...more undivided attention (for the most part) driving to store (20 min) and recreational activity (shopping). We talked some more and she expressed some concerns that I was going to take on the lion's share of responsibility within the relationship. She stated it in terms of domestic support but I believe she is truly worried about her ability to meet my EN's down the road. Right now, I'm not worried about that. I'm just glad we got to the things we did.

I told her without using the word "love buster" that I had developed a new understanding of what it means to protect her from harm and that my tendency to react to her moodiness in the past was something I was working to change; not just to be nice, but because I now really see how being defensive is damaging and hurtful to her. I gave a couple examples of how my new approach was applied over the past couple of weeks and how much better things turned out than they would have in the past.

On the way home she stated that she has not "gotten any texts from him (OM)," I'm inclined to believe it b/c typically she just won't bring it up if he's contacting her. I couldn't help myself and retorted "don't worry, he'll be back" (a bit reactionary and pesimistic, but I really want her to know I'm not fooled by any of it). Hopefully plan A has been working enough that she'll detach from him prior to his next attempt to re-establish contact. Better yet, by then she will unfog enough to start understanding the importance of NC; perhaps with SH's help if she ever agrees to another conversation with him.

That's about where I'm at. Thanks for everyone's patience. As always, I'm interested in any comments or suggestions.

opt
Posted By: imagine Re: WW talked to SH - 12/22/09 04:24 AM
I think that listening to her was far more important than explaining to her about stuff.

Your comment about OM making contact with her at a later stage could be taken as a compliment, if it was expressed nicely.

Carry on listening. Steer the topic away from relationships to a topic that she is interested in. Maybe her clothes and what looks good on her?
Posted By: Linus Re: WW talked to SH - 12/22/09 01:26 PM
Great news opt - nice to hear from you. Thanks for the update.
Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/23/09 03:40 AM
Originally Posted by imagine
I think that listening to her was far more important than explaining to her about stuff.

Your comment about OM making contact with her at a later stage could be taken as a compliment, if it was expressed nicely.

Carry on listening. Steer the topic away from relationships to a topic that she is interested in. Maybe her clothes and what looks good on her?

Thanks imagine. I'm sure you're right. Listening is not easy.
I took your advice into our counselling session tonight and did my best to just listen.
She was asked to describe my behavior over the last couple of weeks. "quietly available" was her assessment. She's softened considerably and seems more comfortable around me.
I think I'm making progress. I think we're making progress.
At some point if this keeps up I might have to start wondering when recovery starts.
In fact, because I like to have an end-game, when does recovery start? Not trying to get ahead of myself, don't worry. I have a lot of work to do, and I suspect NC will be broken again with Christmas coming up "I just wanted to wish you merry Christmas, blahblahblah." She doesn't get the whole NC thing and I haven't found a way to explain it without educating her.

I also really want to solidify my plan A and what is essentially a new belief system for me (what goes into a mutually enjoyable marriage) for a reasonable period. Enough to feel like I can trust myself.
We also have this trip coming up - 17 days separated. I've got letters for almost every day for her Dad to give her while she's gone with DS13. I hope she comes back with a new perspective on life.
When would recovery start?

opt
Posted By: imagine Re: WW talked to SH - 12/23/09 11:57 AM
Originally Posted by optimism
She doesn't get the whole NC thing and I haven't found a way to explain it without educating her.

This is usually expressed in terms of your feelings...

Do you get any response from her when you describe your anguish?
Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/23/09 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by imagine
Originally Posted by optimism
She doesn't get the whole NC thing and I haven't found a way to explain it without educating her.

This is usually expressed in terms of your feelings...

Do you get any response from her when you describe your anguish?

I've been trying so hard not to bring up the A. I think of SAA where Jon was not allowed to bring it up during recovery. The philosophy being that distance and time would heal the wound. What I was failing to recognize is that they were in recovery. Am I right?

So, the principle doesn't apply.

Here's the problem. I'm not sure if I could express my anguish without going into DJ's and general LB's. I have tremendous animosity and ill-will towards this loser (I could elaborate, but you get the point :/). It also makes me mad that she doesn't seem to recognize the negative impact he has had on our family. How he set out purposely to tear us apart and almost succeeded. Her friend told me that he had actually made it a goal of his some months ago to seduce her (WW). Some friend - never thought to mention it to anyone. He wanted to take my place, and actually thought it was possible. All friendly with the kids, giving them things, playing with them. I suppose part of my anger is at my own ignorance and lack of ability to see his end-game. I suppose I'm angry at WW for betraying trust - a colossal miscalculation at the time. She played me, down and sideways and he made me look like a total fool. I actually trusted him(my midwestern naivete)- talk about self-loathing...

I can get over all that. I can. I can be part of rebuilding a Marriage more fantastic than anything we have imagined up to this point. But there will be hurdles. And the NC hurdle is one (among others) I'm looking at right now.

Should I write a letter, so I am not tempted to lose my cool?

Opt
Posted By: Tryingtobebetter Re: WW talked to SH - 12/23/09 02:31 PM
What will you do if she never writes the NC?

Have you giving yourself a date of when you want the NC written?

Is this something you are willing to compromise?

Do you see yourself moving forward without the NC in place?
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: WW talked to SH - 12/23/09 03:02 PM
Trust is something that is so easily destroyed. A BS no longer trusts the WS. The BS no longer trusts friends. The BS no longer trusts people they meet on the street. They no longer trust business associates.

And of all the trust that is the hardest to regain, a BS never really trusts themselves to make moral and ethical judgments about other people since the one person they believed with all their heart and mind that they could trust above all others is the very person who betrayed them.

We see things once the trust is gone that lead us to believe that we should have seen them sooner. We think that this stuff that is so readily apparent after the fact should have jumped out at us and made us realize that we were GOING to be betrayed. If we had only seen then what we so easily see now, we could have prevented it from happening.

This assumes that it was up to us to prevent it and means that we are to blame for it.

Of course those things were not really so in our face before the betrayal began. That's because before the betrayal they weren't really there at all. They didn't happen until the betrayal had already begun and by then, they were being concealed from us. Our WS was actively betraying us AND pretending that none of those signs were there.

It wasn't our choices that betrayed us but the choices of the WS. We didn't cause this and we didn't let it happen.

If we had known then what we know now, our entire life would have been different. Those who wish they had never married the WS will probably never really recover. They may remain married and perhaps will even have times of happiness but what was lost will be like a lost arm or leg, something that will remind them every day that the betrayal made the things they believed with all their heart and mind to not be true at all.

Those who wish they had worked to make the marriage a better one before being betrayed are more likely to recover. This assumes a truly repentant FWS working to repair the damage.

An affair is like cancer to a marriage. Once it is discovered action can take place to rid the marriage of that cancer. For some, it will mean the loss of a limb while for others it will result in scars that will remain forever. Unfortunately for others it will result in the death of the relationship.

Just like some cancer treatments work better than others, MB seems to give the best possible chance to those unfortunate enough to be diagnosed with what will surely change their world and their view of it forever.

Those who survive cancer are called survivors because is seems so few manage to survive. Those who rid themselves of cancer never refer to themselves as cured, only as being in remission. They are former cancer patients forever even when they live a full, normal and happy life from that day forward.

Mark

Posted By: goldenyears Re: WW talked to SH - 12/23/09 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by Mark1952
Trust is something that is so easily destroyed. A BS no longer trusts the WS. The BS no longer trusts friends. The BS no longer trusts people they meet on the street. They no longer trust business associates.

And of all the trust that is the hardest to regain, a BS never really trusts themselves to make moral and ethical judgments about other people since the one person they believed with all their heart and mind that they could trust above all others is the very person who betrayed them.

We see things once the trust is gone that lead us to believe that we should have seen them sooner. We think that this stuff that is so readily apparent after the fact should have jumped out at us and made us realize that we were GOING to be betrayed. If we had only seen then what we so easily see now, we could have prevented it from happening.

This assumes that it was up to us to prevent it and means that we are to blame for it.

Of course those things were not really so in our face before the betrayal began. That's because before the betrayal they weren't really there at all. They didn't happen until the betrayal had already begun and by then, they were being concealed from us. Our WS was actively betraying us AND pretending that none of those signs were there.

It wasn't our choices that betrayed us but the choices of the WS. We didn't cause this and we didn't let it happen.

If we had known then what we know now, our entire life would have been different. Those who wish they had never married the WS will probably never really recover. They may remain married and perhaps will even have times of happiness but what was lost will be like a lost arm or leg, something that will remind them every day that the betrayal made the things they believed with all their heart and mind to not be true at all.

Those who wish they had worked to make the marriage a better one before being betrayed are more likely to recover. This assumes a truly repentant FWS working to repair the damage.

An affair is like cancer to a marriage. Once it is discovered action can take place to rid the marriage of that cancer. For some, it will mean the loss of a limb while for others it will result in scars that will remain forever. Unfortunately for others it will result in the death of the relationship.

Just like some cancer treatments work better than others, MB seems to give the best possible chance to those unfortunate enough to be diagnosed with what will surely change their world and their view of it forever.

Those who survive cancer are called survivors because is seems so few manage to survive. Those who rid themselves of cancer never refer to themselves as cured, only as being in remission. They are former cancer patients forever even when they live a full, normal and happy life from that day forward.

Mark

Amen, Brother.
Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/24/09 02:41 AM
Quote
What will you do if she never writes the NC?
Failure is not an option. The letter must be written or true recovery can not begin. I believe that I can persuade her, I just haven't figured out how, yet. It wont involve a selfish demand, but openness and honesty about my feelings; and further build up of the trust that she has started to have in my ability not to judge her (A LB I have in the rearview mirror for 3 months now, and that's where it's going to stay).

Quote
Have you giving yourself a date of when you want the NC written?
No. But come spring, if we haven't sold the house, something has to be in place b/c POSOM will be more out in the open once the weather gets better. The opportunities for chance meetings will be many.

Quote
Is this something you are willing to compromise?
Right now TTBB, no, perhaps because I have too much animosity for OM. If I could be ultra confident that WW is no longer wayward, maybe. I just don't see that happening. I don't see ever feeling comfortable with (f)WW even glimpsing posom on a regular basis.

Quote
Do you see yourself moving forward without the NC in place?
Myself? Or Us?
I really believe that WW would be fooling herself if she thought she could move forward fully with the M and still have even the possibility of further contact. She had intense feelings for this poor sob. Exactly because he is a poor sob, she felt sympathy for him and allowed herself to be manipulated on those feelings. The constant, ever-present threat would be more than I could bear, honestly. I am hardly comfortable now and it's so cold nobody even leaves their house unless they have to.

Failure is not an option.

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/24/09 02:43 AM
Mark,
thanks for that post. your insights are always timely and poignant.
opt
Posted By: optimism Re: WW talked to SH - 12/24/09 03:13 AM
On a positive note. From the "making progress" file.

WW announced that she will sleep in our bed on Christmas eve. (!!!)
Evidently daughter(8) made this request and WW could not refuse (love that little girl!)

Also, WW took me tanning. Closest thing to RC we've had in a while, then we came home and watched Madmen (netflix).
Madmen - set in the 60's. All but three main characters have cheated on their SO's.... isn't life bazaar?

Her mother called me all happy today "whatever you're doing keep it up! She sounds as happy as I've heard her in a long time"

Thanks MB.
Thanks Willard Harley. The 60's could have used your wisdom.


opt
Posted By: optimism Need Snooping Advice - 12/27/09 01:34 PM
Not sure if I have an opportunity here:

WW left for Florida yesterday. From there she will leave for Argentina tomorrow, Monday. From there they will be on a trip to Antarctica for 2 weeks. (see above posts for details of this situation). I would expect on Monday she will be largely unreachable either by phone or text although she plans to seek ways to check her e-mail.

Here's the thing. She left her computer here. Everything was open including e-mail program and web browser. No password protection. Stupid Wayward? Or invitation? (I'll explain below)

I've been checking her browsing history for weeks, but never had this type of an opportunity to go into any great depth. Last night I spent time going through browsing history back to June 30. What I found was nothing I didn't already know. I knew that on 11/23 she searched for about 10 minutes on symptoms of pregnancy (most likely this indicates her 'EA' was a 'PA.' Not long after that she looked for info on STD's, including Chlamydia. puke
Most of the other stuff of note seems pretty standard fair for a wayward: apartment searches, info on divorce/separation laws, MB (probably looking for my thread - no luck. Hey SickofLimbo - she looked at your thread for a few minutes, LOL; she also read SH's letter on "exposure" about 3 days after her exposure), and looking for jobs.

Other than that there isn't much there. She doesn't have a chat room and her other e-mail account she barely checks. She shops A LOT (addiction?) and really doesn't buy that much. I mean hours spent looking for a pair of gloves or a dress she never actually buys.

Total time with MB: 25 minutes in 5 months. Total time looking for info on how to destroy our M: 4-5 hours (info related to getting out of the marriage).

Now, there's a couple of things going on here. WW has spoken with SH and although she won't let on, I think some of the concepts (along with a heroic plan A I'm in) have been sinking in. The last deleted text on phone was 12/17 (probably OM) and I don't believe she answered it, but either way the A is definitely on the ropes, big time. WW slept in our bed on Christmas eve and Christmas night for the first time in 2 months. She even let me see her in the shower before she left - closest thing to SF in many, many long months.

I have written her a love letter per day to be handed her daily by her Father (also on the trip). DS (also on the trip) will be "reminding" grandpa as needed. They're excellent plan A letter and should have a positive affect as I believe WW's love language is communication (from the love language book).

Here's the question: She's going to have a LOT of time to think during this trip. Do you think it will occur to her that her browsing history was never deleted? If it was me and I was wayward (as I was once); this thought would most certainly have woke me up like a cold shower. Or should I drop a little hint??

Is it worth a potential negative reaction on her part knowing I'm going into her computer? Or is it better that she have 2 weeks to try to figure out how she's going to explain why she was looking up STD's and pregnancy? She thinks I trust her and has yet to come to the understanding that she has to earn back her trust.

I've been very good about not giving up my source. And I will be installing a key-logger once and for all now that I have full access to the machine. So the future is already covered.

Another thing pertinent: She joined FB about 3 weeks ago and she left her FB page open. So I've done a nice job on her profile. She didn't have herself listed as married (that one hurt). Now she's happily married to me and there are pictures of us including the profile picture. So.... she'll already know I've been into her little dream machine if she checks her status at some point in the next few days, will that lead her to the next logical conclusion that I'm all over it? Or do I push the issue to make sure?

And how would I do it in a non-LBing, loving way?
"honey, your Firefox history goes back to June 30th. Have a great trip!"
"honey, your web-browser history was not deleted. I think it was slowing down your computer."

I think we're really making progress. I don't want to take us back a step by threatening her security - the concept of radical honesty is not one she's ready to adopt yet. Is it possible she left it open on purpose??? I mean, that's pretty dumb if she had something she really wanted to hide. Maybe this is her way of opening up. (Or is that my BS fog talking.....?) Maybe she thinks she cleaned it up and has nothing to worry about (even though I've been checking her e-mail for weeks also, unbeknownst to her).

I'm hoping my wife comes back from the trip. Not the alien she's been for the last 9 months.

Thanks everyone for your input! Just so you know, I'm leaning toward leaving it alone. But if I hear a compelling argument to the contrary, I'm open to suggestions. (Now I sound like Fred in VA, lol).

Opt

PS: by the way, she's not pregnant. I've been checking the feminine hygiene products and watching her behavior. She's not.

Posted By: catperson Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/27/09 03:50 PM
For once, lol, I don't have an answer. I honestly don't know what to tell you. My first instinct is to not talk about it. More time for her spent thinking about you. As for FB, if you've done those things to HER page, I think I would set one up of my own, to mirror hers. That way, if she asks, you just say "Yeah, I was working on my FB page, cos I was bored, so I saw yours and figured I'd spiff them both up."
Posted By: imagine Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/27/09 04:20 PM
To answer whether she left her PC open for you -I doubt it.

Do not for get to send little messages to her that keeps her in your memory. If you can't think of anything to say -send her a joke.

All the best during the dry spell. Take interest in the pictures when she gets back.
Posted By: optimism Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/27/09 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by catperson
For once, lol, I don't have an answer. I honestly don't know what to tell you. My first instinct is to not talk about it. More time for her spent thinking about you. As for FB, if you've done those things to HER page, I think I would set one up of my own, to mirror hers. That way, if she asks, you just say "Yeah, I was working on my FB page, cos I was bored, so I saw yours and figured I'd spiff them both up."

Thanks Cat. Because of the help you've given me in the past, you're 'not having an answer' is actually 'having an answer.'
Unless I hear something energetic to the contrary I'll go with your 'first instinct.'

I have a FB page and did modify it up to mirror hers. I guess I'm catching on.
I hardly think she'll have a problem with me changing her status to "married." And if she does she'll have 2 weeks to think about why.

Meanwhile there is a love letter per day full of little nothings, promises, and reminders that there is someone back home who REALLY loves her. period.

wish me luck.

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/27/09 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by imagine
To answer whether she left her PC open for you -I doubt it.

Do not for get to send little messages to her that keeps her in your memory. If you can't think of anything to say -send her a joke.

All the best during the dry spell. Take interest in the pictures when she gets back.

Thanks imagine.
Covered on all fronts above.

(Wishful BS fog thinking about her leaving the PC open for me - stupid BS I am, lol...)

No worries, when she gets back plan A continues. In high gear. (hopefully with a group session with SH a few days later...)

Now I'm off to a football party where her dad will be. My last chance to impress him as he leaves tomorrow to meet up with them in Florida and head to Argentina from there.

I hope he likes my Calzone. I bought the best ingredients!

opt

Posted By: _SOL Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/27/09 08:22 PM
Good luck Opt. I think you are making all the right moves.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/28/09 12:36 AM
Originally Posted by optimism
Here's the question: She's going to have a LOT of time to think during this trip. Do you think it will occur to her that her browsing history was never deleted? If it was me and I was wayward (as I was once); this thought would most certainly have woke me up like a cold shower. Or should I drop a little hint??

Hey Opt,

Glad to hear things are going so well. I love the idea Steve came up with on the letters. I wouldn't have thought of it, which is why it is good you have the PROFESSIONALS helping you....

My thoughts on all of this??.....I say change her FB BACK to how it was. While I do believe that marriage doesn't hold any secrets, it doesn't give you the right to mess with her page. My H was not fond of giving up his passwords, but nothing aggravated him more than when I would be checking up on him and I would mess up his stuff. He likes his things organized a certain way and hated when I read emails first because then he wasn't sure if he had read it or thought he did read something that was important and he didn't and whatever needed to be known in the email got missed by him.....

Now, some on here might say that that is too bad, but then again, my H didn't delete emails pre-A, during the A, and still doesn't. But to me, just because you have been given access doesn't give me the right to do as I please. Instead, we POJA on what goes on in there.

BUT, to me, she didn't give you access, so by doing this, you have been given a new avenue to snoop. And by changing that FB stuff, you have given up your intel. Not a smart, tactical move my friend.

So change it all back, put on the spyware or keylogger, and whatever you do....DO NOT BRING THIS UP TO WW....do not give away the game plan....I would not tell her you were in it, I would not tell her what you saw, I would not say anything......

You have been given a freebee on a tactical part of this A business....use it wisely... wink

not2fun


Posted By: ottert Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/28/09 12:45 AM
Sorry for the quick t/j, opt...

Hey, not2fun, what did you ever decide on that personal story on "intentions" you were thinking about sharing?
Posted By: not2fun Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/28/09 01:16 AM
I have no problems doing it...I'm just not sure how helpful it would be to YOU.....

not2fun
Posted By: optimism Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/28/09 03:43 AM
Hey, thanks Limbo.

My calzone was a hit. Dad asked "where did you get this?"
An ultimate compliment from someone who graduated Cornell and ran his own catering business for 30 years.

Hopefully some of the plan A-type efforts will make their way on to the ship with him. Besides, I think he was still a little sore with me about the exposure. He's never been faithful to a wife yet, so the idea of a recalcitrant spouse I think hit him a little hard. Oh well, maybe he learned something....not!

Thanks for the encouragement. I've been waiting for your update and see that you have a depressed wayward on your hands. I hope she finds comfort in your plan A my friend.

Opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/28/09 03:55 AM
Okay, Not2Fun.
you haven't steered me wrong yet.
I totally see your point.
Unfortunately I didn't get this in time.....

My suspiciousness got the best of me about an hour ago when she got an email from someone who I consider a threat. He's another neighbor and has been a friend of the family for years. Our kids play together. He's also been divorced for some time. He spends a good amount of time with WW in RC. Two weeks ago she called me from the supermarket and I happened to be in the neighborhood and stopped by - guess who she was with? She got defensive about that that night in counseling accusing me of "following her around" (which I wasn't - I wanted to surprise her)

On Christmas eve she wanted to go tanning with him. I lovingly expressed my concern and let her know I wasn't comfortable with her friendship with him. She flipped out and again got quite defensive. Too defensive in my opinion.

Back to the e-mail. It was mostly benign, but due to my trust level being so low, I hacked into her other email account. It required that I change passwords on two of the accounts I know about.

------I know you're going to have something to say about this------------

I can't change the PW's back b/c I don't know what they were.....

I figured I would just play Mickey the Dunce and hope she chalked it all up to a computer glitch.

She wont' really have much access to email on the trip, so hopefully she won't have time to deal with it; then when she gets home she can get things re-set.


How bad did I screw up?

Lack of Trust and Jealousy can be a terrible thing.
(I'm still going to check the other e-mail account while I can....

Opt
Posted By: catperson Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/28/09 02:21 PM
Quote
My thoughts on all of this??.....I say change her FB BACK to how it was.
That was actually my first thought, but I figured if you're anything like me, that would be impossible...to remember what went where, lol. Or even how to do it. I can barely even open FB.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/28/09 05:28 PM
Opt,

For the first year or so after the A ended, I worried endlessly (obsessed if you will) about H's interactions with EVERY breathing female on the earth. It was EXHAUSTING......it wasn't until I accepted that this was all on H and his behavior that I found some peace. Oh, I still worry (can't tell you how paranoid I can get about his assistant...and there's even another man working in his office now....), after all, in learning just how devious women can be, who wouldn't, but I still take it all to where the true responsibility lies...with H. Mark taught me this....

The fact of the matter is you are still dealing with a wayward wife. She may not be in an active affair, but when a spouse believes it is ok to have relationships with opposite sex, then they are still wayward. Plain and simple. And until she learns otherwise (and not from you....leave Steve to do this PLEASE!!!!), she will remain wayward.

Now, as far as the new development...BTDT. Yep, you are gonna be in hot water. You just go back to the same lines you repeat when dealing with the fog.

As far as the facebook thing, I would STILL change it back. You may get away with the "Mickey-the-dunce-computer-glitch" thing with the passwords, but not with FB. Fix this like yesterday....

not2fun
Posted By: optimism Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/28/09 09:40 PM
Quote
Now, as far as the new development...BTDT. Yep, you are gonna be in hot water. You just go back to the same lines you repeat when dealing with the fog.

N2F, thanks as always for your input.

I'm not sure what you mean by the above quoted text. Are you saying she's developing another EA in front of my eyes? (Not sure why that would equate to me being in "hot water") Or me messing with her passwords, which could clearly land me in hot water...

What do you mean "been there done that?" Is this common for a foggy wayward to end one EA/PA (through exposure etc) and then simply jump to another? I know she was trying to go out a lot for a while there (I can only imagine to search other prospects) that seems to have stopped recently.

Little slow on the up-take today - I'm exhausted because I was up a lot last night obsessing about the 2nd email account. 3am I'm pouring through thousands of emails since 2006. Nothing there. But I don't regret looking.

WW leaves the country tonight and will have presumably even more limited access to technology at that point. Hopefully I'll feel like I can relax. I was hoping for a mini-vacation from the hard work of Plan A, but so far it's been exhausting and full of anxiety.

Thanks for any further help.

Opt


Posted By: not2fun Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/28/09 10:48 PM
I meant that you would be in hot water for changing those passwords, and BTDT because I have done this very thing......and I've BTDT on the staying up till 3 am looking at emails.....VERY EXHAUSTING....go take a nap....

not2fun
Posted By: optimism Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/28/09 11:18 PM
10-4, not2fun. Daughter is going to a friend's for the night, I promise to turn in early and stop obsessing for at least 12 hours.

WW just called from the airport, she still sounds pretty up-beat. Earlier today she actually said ILY on the phone it's been months since I heard that. I "Plan A'd" her Mom quite a bit so hopefully some of that rubbed off, too. I sent ahead some notes for Mom to give her for the last couple of days, plus one for DS. Evidently that was a pretty good idea (thanks SH) because she commented to Mom that "it shows he's thinking of me."

Dad has the letters and I checked again to make sure he'll give them each day. All I can do now is hope I stay "in her mind." (and hope I can control my own, lol)

Oh, I'm planning to expand on the theme and write down all of our activities each day, a little diary if you will, for when DS and WW return. So it will be like she didn't miss anything...

opt

Quote
I meant that you would be in hot water for changing those passwords
I know. I have a prepared response in case i need it. It's pretty much a beg-for-mercy, forgiveness and understanding type of thing. You know, man's favorite dance step: the Back-Peddle.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/29/09 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
I know. I have a prepared response in case i need it. It's pretty much a beg-for-mercy, forgiveness and understanding type of thing. You know, man's favorite dance step: the Back-Peddle.

Opt,

If you DARE do this, I will have to break out my beatin' stick again.

Listen VERY CAREFULLY......you didn't do anything wrong. She will think you did. ALL WAYWARDS think this way.....the fact of the matter is, in a marriage, you SHOULD have access to her emails...PERIOD. And she should have access to yours.

BUT at the moment, you are not dealing with a marriage, nor are you dealing with a sane, normal, fog-free wife.

So, if she brings this up DO NOT APOLOGIZE. You tell her calmly that you are doing what is NECESSARY to save to your marriage. If you apologize, you make yourself the bad guy who did something wrong, which you did not......again...

A good marriage has EP (Extra-Precautionary measures)....those EP'S include access to the other's emails, cell phones, CC's, bank accounts....essentially EVERYTHING

Have you ever talked about the fact that you two should have access to each others email???....this was a very clear BOUNDARY that I started on early. In fact, it was H's REFUSAL to comply with not giving me passwords to emails and phone bills that sent me into my Plan B...which lasted all of 6 days......

No not grovel/apologize/back-peddle....It is very UNATTRACTIVE...

not2fun

Posted By: _SOL Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/29/09 05:40 PM
Opt,

I agree with not2fun completely. I am in similar situation, but I haven't apologized for my actions to save the M. I keep telling her that I need to do what I need to do just as she needs to do what she feels she needs to do. I tell WW that I understand what she is feeling, but I never apologize. At times I try to explain why I'm doing these things, but she feels I am simply lashing out from desperation. I try not to explain, but she asks some direct questions and I'm trying to be as honest as possible with her. It is very hard.

Keep up your letter campaign and I hope that may also have some affect with your WW.
Posted By: optimism Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/30/09 03:57 AM
Okay, Not2Fun. Put away the stick, but please tell me this stuff is a little confusing because I really don't think I'm this stupid. smile

Let me see if I have this straight:
I'm in plan A and trying to be pretty much be perfect.
So, when I was being told I was in "hot water" I thought that meant I was doing something wrong and would need to apologize. But, snooping isn't wrong, and apologizing is counter productive. So, what I think I hear you saying is getting caught is not advisable and will bring on the hot water.

Obviously giving up the source is counter productive. Which brings up the question that I've had for a while: is there ever a time to give up the info? From what I know of plan B you wouldn't do it in your PBL. Or is it more of on rare occasions "I know you're up to XYZ but I'm not telling you how I know."

I totally understand the EP's. We are so not even close to discussing that yet though, are we? She has yet to really acknowledge the A and from what I can tell is actually trying to foster another one as we speak! EP's seem like something you talk about during Recovery. Help me understand that one.

Quote
Have you ever talked about the fact that you two should have access to each others email???....
Umm, no. The last conversation we had even close to this (2 weeks ago after "counselling") was that she needed me to "stop acting so jealous" - obviously now I see that was fog-speak for "I want to continue to pursue outside relationships without you peering over my back and questioning me." Sooo, I have tried to limit my "jealous" behavior and sparingly let her know when I have concerns (like about her wanting to go tanning with OM#2 on Christmas Eve because "he doesn't have anyone and I feel bad for him). I have felt like "acting jealous" would be a LB but I also understand the importance of 'busting up' any potential nefarious activity. Likewise, when I caught them together at the grocery store, I simply let her know that it was very painful for me to see. Believe it or not, I think these minor, subtle reactions do have some affect of at least making her think twice about her "friendship." I am hoping that mixed with a huge carrot of plan A, and further sessions with SH (if she agrees...)will be enough to bring her home.


Quote
this was a very clear BOUNDARY that I started on early. In fact, it was H's REFUSAL to comply with not giving me passwords to emails and phone bills that sent me into my Plan B...which lasted all of 6 days......
NotTwoFun, The closest I've come to this is to let her know that I have no secrets and she's free to puruse my computer or phone at anytime. She didn't reciprocate- imagine that!!
But, could you please tell me more about the above quote? I haven't read your whole thread, but are you saying this REFUSAL was what pushed you to your move to plan B?
Here's why I ask:
I think I'm still a ways from plan B. I feel strong enough to endure plan A for some time, although I do plan to seriously evaluate my situation when WW gets home and whether she agrees to further talks with SH will be a big indicator of where the M is at, I think. But I look ahead to possible plan B days (when I just can't continue to plan A her without her committing to the M and start acting like a real wife, without various 'friendships', secret cell phones, private bank accounts, and unaccounted for time). I say possible because I can't see how I can get into a plan B without indisputable proof that she's in a full-fledged A. Most of the folks who have gone to plan B that I read about on this board are dealing with WS's who are actively carrying on their adultery in wide open spaces (I don't know how these BS's find the strength...I feel like a total crybaby comparatively: I have a bonafide WW on my hands but it's nothing like that).

Will I ever get into a plan B on the grounds of "Honey, I love you but I can't keep being nice to you if you continue to use a cell phone without telling me who you're calling. I'll be at the Motel 6 and my IM's are Joe and Sandy...."?

thanks again for all your help.

opt



Posted By: optimism Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/30/09 04:13 AM
Originally Posted by SickofLimbo
Opt,
I keep telling her that I need to do what I need to do just as she needs to do what she feels she needs to do.

Limbo, could you elaborate, or is it as simple as the above? I'm having trouble envisioning the conversation. (I don't want to screw this part up if ww brings up the subject of me checking her emails and me going through her texts- which I'm guessing on some level she knows about).

All I can envision is:
ww: "Why are you checking my e-mails! You're treating me like a child!"
me: (in the most loving way possible) "Honey, I'm only treating you like an adultress" (I got that from TTF) "now, you need to do what you need to do to destroy our marriage and carry on your adulterous behavior, and I need to do what I can to save our family; that means I need to know what you're up to behind my back because you have proven yourself to be nothing but a bald-faced lier, okay?"

I'm thinking that's not going to lead to anything good. smile



Quote
Keep up your letter campaign and I hope that may also have some affect with your WW.
Yup, the letters are all sent and hopefully working their magic. Most have a picture embedded, so she has a visual as well - us together, or just me, or me and the kids. A picture is worth a thousand words, hopefully even to a wayward.

opt



Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/30/09 04:36 AM
Originally Posted by optimism
is there ever a time to give up the info?
A quick answer to a single question: No.

My WW is out of the house and I'm in deep Plan B. She may or may not return (I'm betting not). If she does come back some day, I will NOT give up the source of my info. I got it and she knows it. Knowing I can get it is a barrier for her to think she can get away with it "next time."
Posted By: _SOL Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/30/09 06:50 AM
Originally Posted by optimism
Originally Posted by SickofLimbo
Opt,
I keep telling her that I need to do what I need to do just as she needs to do what she feels she needs to do.

Limbo, could you elaborate, or is it as simple as the above? I'm having trouble envisioning the conversation. (I don't want to screw this part up if ww brings up the subject of me checking her emails and me going through her texts- which I'm guessing on some level she knows about).


Opt, for me it is pretty much that simple. Here is an example of some of our random "discussions" (not in any particular order) on the subject:

ww: Why the hell did you contact OM's sister and tell her all this stuff?
Me: As I have told you before, I will do whatever I feel I need to do to save our marriage and family.

WW: I'm talking to an attorney tomorrow.
Me: I'm sorry to hear that, but you need to do what you feel you need to do. I don't do divorce.

WW: Why do you keep fighting me on this? Why are you doing these things (exposure)?
Me: I'm not fighting you, I'm fighting your adultery. I will continue to do whatever I feel I need to to try to save our marriage and family.

WW: You are desperate. You are just trying to retaliate and you are lashing out at OMs family.
Me: I can understand how you could see things that way, however I don't agree with you. I know exactly what I am doing and why and it is not in any way vindictive or mean. I am simply sharing the truth.

WW: Don't you understand? What you are doing makes me like you less and less. If anything this makes me want a divorce even more. You are trying to control me.
Me: I can't express to you how sad it makes me feel to hear you say that. I know my actions since the shock of the affair have upset you. I need to do what I feel I need to do in order to save our marriage. You need to do whatever you feel you need to do as well. I am not trying to control you.

I can tell you I sound like a broken record at times, but I never apologize. I also try very hard not to say anything too judgmental. I just try to stay calm and 'matter of fact' when we talk about my actions to end the A. It's hard.

I'm not sure if I'm doing it right or not. I'm trying to follow my interpretation of the guidance I've receive on the boards here. If I am doing it right, I hope it may help your sitch. Your suggestions have greatly helped me to deal with mine.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/30/09 05:53 PM
Opt,

I will post more on your questions later once H comes home with the laptop. I can't answer everything you asked on my phone.

I think my saying you'll be in hit water was a wrong choice of words...my bad. Let me correct that.

What I meant is she will be mad at you for changing those passwords. I didn't mean to infer that you were wrong to do that ( though I do think it was wrong to change her FB page.....). She is going to be mad just like she was when you exposed. Just like exposure is not wrong nor should a BS apologize for it, the same can be said for snooping.

You are trying to save your marriage........IF she wasn't trying to destroy it then all of this would be moot.....

Not2fun
Posted By: optimism Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/30/09 06:44 PM
Limbo, thanks so much for your input. Those are good �scripts� and I�ll try to keep them in mind. Having concrete examples helps. At this time I feel like I�m getting familiar with the concept and the general idea of the material. But implementing all these ideas is a horse of a different color. It�s really hard.

Not sure where you�ve been with this one, but my W has a particular knack for going on the defensive when she knows she�s got a losing argument (or even when she knows she�s wrong). She was trained by the best and brought up in a household where admitting wrong was a sign of weakness. Not to mention �the best defense is a good offense.� Since she�s a Scorpio, that stinger comes out and she knows just how to punish anyone who questions her motives (again, even when she knows she�s out of line). I think she even wishes she wasn�t that way most of the time, but that�s the way it is. She�s like the scorpion and the frog (do you know that story?). Anyway, these are just musings and have little to do with plan A and what you are suggesting to me. The point is that the responses, and the general approach works against any attack. Because it doesn�t engage in the fight (I think that�s a Zen type thing).

You�ve given me a lot to go on. I was close but I need to stop apologizing. I think I was doing this as a way to gain empathy (yeah, right, empathy from a ww�), but as N2F has been saying, it has a very destructive effect. I remember telling her recently �I�m sorry, but your relationship with Potential OM#2 makes me uncomfortable.� This would probably have been a very effective statement without the precursor of �I�m sorry.� I will try to replace the �I�m sorry� with �I understand your feelings�� As I read in another thread (from a vet) we may be BS�s but we have a right to our feelings too, and I guess the idea is we can express those feelings as long as we don�t throw in the (ever so tasty appearing) LB�s.

I�m still floored by the stuff JL offered in your thread. Amazing. We�re really lucky to be here. So much wisdom.

Thanks again SoL and good luck. Now that the exposure is over, it might seem like there�s a lull. Fill the time with meeting EN�s - Have you made dinner yet!? I�m counting on you! I forgot to tell you I made fried chicken which went over well. But it cost me one of my best shirts- I wanted to look good doing it, but wound up with all grease stains! Next time I�ll cook shirtless ( I lost the beer belly from quitting drinking and and being on the My-wife-is-having-an-affair Diet, so I might as well take advantage of it!).

opt


Posted By: optimism Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/30/09 06:54 PM
Thanks Fred. I think I'm starting to catch on.
With the "intel gathering" I've been real tentative because it's so not my nature to be sneaky (part of why I made a crappy wayward). Until the recent discussion here I was also paralyzed with fear about getting caught peering at her computer and stuff. I would literally be shaking just checking her e-mail, while she was at work and I'm the one that picks her up, so I knew she couldn't just show up.

Now I will feel a little more calm and collected about it. It's not wrong. It's necessary. It's not a LB per se. And a pat response like the ones suggested by Limb and others I think I can handle. As long as I remember I might be sneaking around a little but for the right reasons (not to destroy the M like a wayward does, but for the exact opposite reasons), I'll be okay.

I watch your thread a lot, Fred. You're growing in so many ways. You're an inspiration to me. Did you know I quit drinking (Nov 22)? I have some questions about that I think you would be able to answer for me. If you would be interested and you could pm me about it, please do. I understand if not - you have a lot on your plate and I'm by no means in any sort of a crisis here.

opt
Posted By: not2fun Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/30/09 06:56 PM
I personally think Scorpio's are just very PASSIONATE..... lashes

You are being much TOO harse on poor Scorpio's.... toe tap

not2fun
Posted By: Linus Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/30/09 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by optimism
( I lost the beer belly from quitting drinking and and being on the My-wife-is-having-an-affair Diet, so I might as well take advantage of it!).

opt


Hey opt - I went on one of those diets too! Lost 15 lbs, and I feel a whole lot better. Who says there's no silver lining to this cloud? smile

I'm still following your thread, just not posting often. You're doing great. Keep it up, my friend. Good things will happen.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/30/09 08:08 PM
Quote
ww: "Why are you checking my e-mails! You're treating me like a child!"


Opt: I am doing whatever is necessary to save our marriage.

WW: You're disrespecting my privacy!

Opt: I am doing whatever is necessary to save our marriage.

WW: I hate you! You're trying to control me!!

Opt: I am doing whatever is necessary to save our marriage.

Get the point? Don't engage. Leave out the DJs. Don't reveal your sources. Maybe someday, 2-3 years down the road in recovery you can tell, but for now, you don't.
Posted By: optimism Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/30/09 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by not2fun
I personally think Scorpio's are just very PASSIONATE..... lashes

You are being much TOO harse on poor Scorpio's.... toe tap

not2fun

TooFunny, not2fun.
whistle
Posted By: optimism Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/30/09 09:34 PM
Sounds good, Princess. Thanks so much. That makes it easy. smile
When I first started with plan A and stuck with a lot of "reverse fog talk" ww accused me of being a robot. It hurt a lot and I thought I was doing something wrong (of course that was her intention). Now, a few weeks later, I'm seeing it's a good thing to be accused of robotic speech patterns by a wayward. I'll go back to that when needed.
Quote
Maybe someday, 2-3 years down the road in recovery you can tell, but for now, you don't.
Okay, I get it. I'll put it out of my mind, and continue to keep my records well hidden (out of the house).
thanks again meggy.

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/30/09 09:37 PM
Linus, I'm so happy to see you're over on the R board. Haven't had time to check the thread, I know it's only 2 pages, but I'll get to it later on.
Psyched for you and your wife! And you know I'll be watching your every move and reading what the vets have to offer you since that's where I hope to be eventually. (always good to look ahead when I can)

opt
Posted By: not2fun Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/30/09 09:51 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
Originally Posted by not2fun
I personally think Scorpio's are just very PASSIONATE..... lashes

You are being much TOO harse on poor Scorpio's.... toe tap

not2fun

TooFunny, not2fun.
whistle

Gotta defend my peeps!!!!.....(as a whole, not them wayward ones.... ;))

not2fun
Posted By: optimism Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/31/09 04:18 AM
Quote
Gotta defend my peeps!!!!.....(as a whole, not them wayward ones.... ;))
You know, I've never put much time into astrology. But with all this new appreciation for how M's work, I'm inspired to look into it a little more - maybe I will learn something more about my wife; and that can't be a bad thing.

Update:
WW was able to get onto a computer from Buenos Aires where they will depart for Ushuaia and then Antarctica. Luckily I was able to get a short chat in with her (and DS on a separate computer at the same time). She sounded good.
[NotTwofun - don't kill me, but I never got around to undoing her FB profile pic] She did not say anything about FB. And in a FB message (inbox) she told me "I'm having trouble getting into my e-mail so we will use FB to communicate when we can." I don't think she suspects anything. Meanwhile I was able to see her activity b/c her computer at home was still also logged in. Of course, she also tried to chat with "potential OM#2/"friend."" That really sucks! Fortunately he was apparently not on-line. I didn't see any messages to him though, so that's good I guess.
Anyway, now that it seems I have a for-sure way to communicate, I'm updating her on the activities of me and daughter(8) as much as I can. That way WE stay in her head and hopefully clear whatever fog is lingering (I've lost track of who she's foggy for, or if it's just general fog).

opt
Posted By: not2fun Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/31/09 05:19 AM
Originally Posted by optimism
Okay, Not2Fun. Put away the stick, but please tell me this stuff is a little confusing because I really don't think I'm this stupid. smile

I'll put it away for NOW...but don't think I can't whip it out in a jiffy.....as far as confusing, no this stuff is not confusing, but it may be MY delivery that is confusing (I'm not as well versed as some of the others on here....)

Originally Posted by opt
Let me see if I have this straight:
I'm in plan A and trying to be pretty much be perfect.
So, when I was being told I was in "hot water" I thought that meant I was doing something wrong and would need to apologize. But, snooping isn't wrong, and apologizing is counter productive

Again, for clarity....You didn't do anything wrong (EXCEPT change the FB page...but even that was rather minor...). Snooping is not wrong just like Exposure is not wrong. You don't apologize when you haven't done anything wrong.....

YOu pat answer to everything..."I doing what is necessary to save my marriage..."

Yes, she may hate it....she may TRY to get you to think this is a LOVE BUSTER, but as long as you don't deliver it in an LB manner such as an Angry Outburst, Disrespectful Judgement, ect, than you are golden.....

Originally Posted by opt
is there ever a time to give up the info?

There may be a time, but I couldn't tell you when that is....I did WAY TOO EARLY...we hadn't been in R (I thought we were WELL on our way...we weren't). Unfortunately, I am unsure of that answer....ask Steve...

Originally Posted by opt
I totally understand the EP's. We are so not even close to discussing that yet though, are we?

Why not??...It is never too early to start discussing these. Once I read about these in SAA, I started bringing this up, early and often. Of course, the WS won't AGREE to them, but that doesn't mean you can't start putting feelers out there about them. How else is she supposed to learn about them???...of course, you could leave this up to Steve as well....

Like I said, I started letting him know I wanted his passwords to emails, phone accounts, and such early on. Of course he balked and refused, but I was letting him know what it was going to take to feel safe againn....


Originally Posted by opt
The last conversation we had even close to this (2 weeks ago after "counselling") was that she needed me to "stop acting so jealous" - obviously now I see that was fog-speak for "I want to continue to pursue outside relationships without you peering over my back and questioning me."

yes....fogbabble for sure....you are getting the hang of this....

Originally Posted by opt
I have tried to limit my "jealous" behavior and sparingly let her know when I have concerns

Sounds about right...If you are constantly hounding her, that does become an LB...

I do want you to know that it is okay to express your hurt and pain though. In a NON LOVE BUSTING manner....you just state that xyz behavior hurts you, and then drop it....

Originally Posted by opt
I am hoping that mixed with a huge carrot of plan A, and further sessions with SH (if she agrees...)will be enough to bring her home.

Sounds about right for you at this point....

Originally Posted by opt
But, could you please tell me more about the above quote? I haven't read your whole thread, but are you saying this REFUSAL was what pushed you to your move to plan B?

Yes.....Long story short...I had busted H and OW together. Exposed to her H. Then for the next 6 weeks, he wouldn't give up any passwords or such so I could verify NC, which of course was because there was NO NC. They were still in contact (FYI, OW lived in Florida, while we are in the mid-west...I had the luxury of this being a long-distance affair. Made things easier on my end....). So, after weeks of craziness, I went into Plan B. For 6 days.....

Originally Posted by opt
Here's why I ask:
I think I'm still a ways from plan B. I feel strong enough to endure plan A for some time, although I do plan to seriously evaluate my situation when WW gets home and whether she agrees to further talks with SH will be a big indicator of where the M is at, I think. But I look ahead to possible plan B days (when I just can't continue to plan A her without her committing to the M and start acting like a real wife, without various 'friendships', secret cell phones, private bank accounts, and unaccounted for time).

This would be good for you to discuss with Steve. My sitch was a bit more cut and dry than yours, but I completely understand your concerns.....sorry I couldn't help you more...

And yes, your wife MAY not be in an active affair (though *I* am not convinced of this....), she is still VERY WAYWARD.....

not2fun

ps....I'm not into any astrology stuff either....just giving you a hard time.... grin
Posted By: optimism Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/31/09 07:23 PM
N2Fun, you are theeee best. Thanks for clarifying and taking the time out for me.
Off to NYE celebrations with daughter(8) and her little friend. Snow, Parades and Fireworks.
WW was happy to hear of our plans, so this all counts as Plan A activity! smile

Happy New Year to all.
opt
Posted By: Linus Re: Need Snooping Advice - 12/31/09 09:14 PM
opt - I posted this in reply to your post on my thread, then realized it really belongs here . . .

Thanks opt. You will be on this R forum soon too. I just hope I stay here!

I really hope things go well while WW is on the trip. It may end up being a very good thing.

I think I understand the marathon concept. I just have to keep reminding myself. That's one reason I try to get on this site every day. I once ran in Boston. I jumped in to run the last 9 miles with a friend (ok, I cheated). Coming in to Kenmore Sq is awesome, even if I didn't run the whole thing. (I have completed a 1/2 marathon though)

Keep working Plan A my friend - it will work!

Happy New Year to you too - '10 just has to be better than '09, right?
Posted By: optimism Wishful Musings of a Betrayed Spouse (?) - 01/01/10 01:52 PM
I think altering her FB status may have had a secondary positive affect (changing her "R status" to married" (which I can't undo). MY FB updates have been quite sentimental. I have also posted her wall with regular communications (2 or 3, not over the top) about how things are back home and how daughter and I miss them, and all stuff about family, etc. ****Potential OM #2 has lately faded into the woodwork around the neighborhood.
And HIS FB status also indicates some interesting sentiments:
�...Leave last year behind and focus on what is important this year,remember your family and put past differences behind,clean the slate and your heart make room for better things,God Bless us all.�

Am I a crazy/stupid betrayed spouse, or is this a way of ackowleding to me about making a move on my wife? (stop laughing vets! smile ) See, I�ve always considered this guy to have an ounce of class and he has been a good friend to the family. I know the kind of person he is and it's important for him to be perceived as an upright guy. He also lost his wife to Adultery about 2 years ago. I truly believe he MAY have been snared by my very charming WW�s foggy come-ons (her need to secure her EN�s outside the M). Maybe with all the FB stuff, he�s recognizing that I am not happy with his flirting with her on-line, and that he was OUT of line. MAYBE he's thinking twice about developing a bond with my WW. Could I have caught it in time?????? (Like Linus?)

Here�s a question, if you go along with that premise: what if he decides to come to me with his new outlook �Hey, I realize I went a little too far with the trips to the grocery store and tanning bed, etc. Sorry, it won�t happen again.� Do I let him know if he�s truly sorry, he�ll stay the hell away from her for an extended period and allow me to work on our M? (that�s what I�m thinking)

If something like this comes to pass, I�m SO prepared for WW: �you took my FRIEND away just because of your unreasonable jealousy!! Now, I know I REALLY can�t be with you! You�ve ruined everything. I�m a prisoner, I can�t even have any friends!�

Me: �I�m doing whatever is necessary to save our marriage.�

(not sure if I mentioned it above: last time I brought up my discomfort with her relationship with POM#2 (in a very loving and matter-of-fact way), part of her flip-out was �we just went back! all of the progress we�ve made is ruined, we just went back!� --wayward speak, and BECAUSE I didn�t react to it, Christmas eve was overall pretty uneventful after that; she was foggy, but it wasn�t that tense. Of note: she was also VERY UPSET that I was talking about this with the kids around �Now everytime they see him they�re going to think something bad about him� , And of course I�m thinking �like what? Like he�s trying to destroy our family and steal mommy? Awww, what a shame for our kids to know that not everyone is who they say they are.� I was also proud of myself for showing the kids that Daddys can have feelings too and that they should be allowed to express them openly and lovingly; I never accused that man of anything - all I said (and repeated) was that I was NOT comfortable with her and his relationship, that it gave me concerns because I loved her and didn�t want to lose her.

This all happened a week ago. With input here from everyone and careful consideration, I�m just now piecing it all together. N2F, you�re right. She�s still VERY wayward. And there IS (and has been) something going on with this guy. At least in her mind. I�m glad I�ve been watching that situation closely. I�ll be watching it even closer when she gets back.

opt

ps: here's to a new year and new beginnings.
Posted By: optimism Re: Need Snooping Advice - 01/01/10 02:02 PM
Linus, congrats on running the Boston Marathon. 9 miles is about 8 1/2 more miles than I would have made!
I wasn't sure if you were familiar with the Boston Marathon, but if you like the analogy, I was going to remind you that the last few miles is where Heartbreak Hill is at (you know it all too well, I guess!). So don't forget that, as with a lot of things, just when it all seems hopeless and you're about to give up- that's when perseverance pays off.

I hope you're right about me and W heading to R board eventually. I think we have a ways to go, but I'm working hard. I think you're right about the trip ultimately being a good thing. Tomorrow she reads a letter with well-stated promises (ML's suggestion); implementation of those promises has already begun and will continue in full force when she returns.

Quote
'10 just has to be better than '09, right?
You couldn't be more right about that my friend!

Peace,
opt

If he approaches you, by all means talk honestly with him. Give him the benefit of the doubt, to preserve everyone's dignity...but snoop like a PI!
Posted By: optimism Another EA Story - 01/02/10 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by catperson
If he approaches you, by all means talk honestly with him. Give him the benefit of the doubt, to preserve everyone's dignity...but snoop like a PI!

Okay, Cat. That sounds reasonable. I'll can do that. Thanks for your assistance once again.

Meanwhile, a little update; mostly for my own purposes. Last time I communicated with ww (or DS13) was on Wednesday night when she got on FB for a quick chat.
E-mail checks reveal nothing and her FB page is still open on her computer logged in, so I know she hasn't tried to communicate with OM#2. Probably it's restrictively expensive to use a computer on a ship from the antarctic region.

So four days the only thing she's heard from me are the letters that I sent with her Dad. That was a pain in the neck writing all those letters (discretely, no less), but boy am I glad I did that. They're good letters each with it's own point. Today she hears about my hopes to move on and some heartfelt promises about behavior I'm going to continue to avoid (LB's- but I didn't use those terms)- Cat, the promises suggestion was yours I think.

Also I'm hitting her FB with PM's about each day's activities of me and Daughter8. Just factual type stuff, like a diary. When she gets back on the computer, she'll know we were thinking of her everyday; but also having a good time.

I'm feeding my Taker during this respite. Enjoying myself and the relative freedom from plan A. The bond between daughter and I grows stronger everyday and we're doing some really fun stuff - she'll never forget this time we have together. Tomorrow my sister arrives for a week long visit. She will try to give me all sorts of advice, some of which will be on the mark and some will be conventional wisdom from someone who doesn't understand adultery, or MB for that matter. But spending time with family is not a luxury I normally have, so it will be a good experience. We take the train to NY with D8 for the w/e and will be seeing a Broadway play, skating at Rock Center, and eating Hogies (or whatever they call them there).

The plan is to continue to enjoy this time. We'll see where ww is "at" when she returns, or next time I talk to her. I hope there will be progress and Plan A will simply continue, but I have no expectations. I'll plan to re-evaluate the situation after I see her behavior (overt and covert) for a week or so after the trip.

opt


Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - 01/04/10 04:36 PM
Hey Opt,

How are you doing during your 'respite'? Hope you and your daughter are enjoying the bonding time.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - 01/05/10 04:02 AM
Originally Posted by SickofLimbo
Hey Opt,

How are you doing during your 'respite'? Hope you and your daughter are enjoying the bonding time.

Hey, thanks for asking Limbo. Overall pretty good, although I'm not getting the break I thought I would from plan A, quite honestly. I've been a little obsessed with updating my FB with things "potential OM#2" will see and hopefully make him think twice about flirting with her on her page, meeting her for cigarettes on the porch and generally being a f'ing nuisuance to my effort to reconnect with my wife. I scanned a bunch of old pictures & put them on my page. Complimented her openly and publicly (although I only have about 60 friends, not like some people with hundreds), and have made a few comments about 'family' and how important our family is to us. I've also continued to write her letters and put them in her FB inbox (since I know she can't get her e-mail...) so when she gets to a computer, she'll know we're continuing to think about her and pray for her- they're also giving her an account of what we're doing, something I read in another thread that can be meaningful to a travelling spouse/plan A type stuff.

Unfortunately, last night I had a dream that she was having an affair with someone on the trip. Of course I convinced myself in the middle of the night that she was developing a relationship that she would then continue to carry out via e-mail etc. when she gets back. I have about that much trust in her. I also have confidence in her ability to be devious and secretive enough to actually carry this all out without much notice of our son, her Father, and her future step mother. In some ways I'm now hoping that she's motion sick and sitting in the cabin a good part of the time. I guess that's what infidelity does to a person.

I've spent some time with daughter8 going through some old pictures and some letters from me that WW saved from way back when. We had fun and I think it's important for the kids to know our history. My daughter has been fairly quiet up until now about the turmoil of the M. She's opened up a couple of times about how she doesn't want us to divorce. She even has ideas about things I can do to "make mommy fall in love with you again." She helped me pick out a little gift for ww for when she gets back. I wish ww could hear some of the things she says. WW fog has had her convinced that Daughter8 was "just so resiliant, and she'll be fine" type of BS that ww's come up with. She's actually very concerned. But I've been a pillar of strength for her and will continue to be no matter what, so I know she'll be okay no matter what- she's my responsibility, even if that means solely mine.

Well, thanks again for asking as you compelled me to get a few thoughts out of my head. Maybe I'll get better sleep tonight.

opt
Posted By: optimism Another EA Story - 01/06/10 02:16 PM
Quote
I am going to give you a condensed version of TMTS thread.

N2F, I wanted you to know I am continuing to "blaze" through this thread. It's been very helpful and I thank you for the recommendation. I'm over half way and (obviously) have also been going through my own thread with the small amount of extra time I've had during ww's absence. I hope you'll give TMTS my regards and let him know his work is continuing to help others even while he's in the next phase - I hope him and FWW are doing well.

Reading my thread has been eye-opening. I think I've come a long way. This whole experience has been a life changer. I've had a chance to talk to my sister a LOT for the last few days and been able through those conversations to solidify and prove to myself my conviction. This isn't temporary, plan A and MB has inspired a paradigm shift and I've adopted a new belief systed about the "way things work" (as Steve puts it -as he refers to R's).

Meanwhile a strange thing is happening. Having her not here is somehow a drain on her Love Bank. I'm having trouble not focusing on the negatives (like the A and continued development of "friendships" lately). Maybe I'm just feeling more confident and strong in myself. Or is it that she's not here to even make deposits with me?

I am being unfair to her by projecting pessimism about whether she will be less foggy when she gets back. Or am I just trying to protect myself against the possibility that she'll go back to her wayward behavior?

Any thoughts? ------and thanks-------

opt


Posted By: catperson Re: Another EA Story - 01/06/10 03:41 PM
Just stop worrying about it for now. Nothing you can do. Leave it, and enjoy yourself and work on yourself and do things you never do when she's around because it would have taken away from family time. Start some new traditions with your daughter (your daughter's there, right?).
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - 01/06/10 03:46 PM
I agree with Cat. You are worrying about future events that may or may not even happen. Try to live in TODAY. You have done some awesome things to save your marriage. Use this short break to be good to yourself. Faith replaces fear. Have faith that the steps you are taking will work and stop living in fear that they won't. I know, easy to say but hard to do.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - 01/06/10 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by catperson
Just stop worrying about it for now. Nothing you can do. Leave it, and enjoy yourself and work on yourself and do things you never do when she's around because it would have taken away from family time. Start some new traditions with your daughter (your daughter's there, right?).

Yup, you're right. I'm thinking too much. We're going to enjoy the w/e before they return and that will help.

Hey, I might have made a mistake today. I was talking with MIL and mentioned my concerns about the "long-time friend in the family -she doesn't think of him in that way" potential OM#2. I explained that there is more going on than she knows including all sorts of flattery on the FB, trips to the tanning salon and grocery store, hugs and "i'll miss you's." -I didn't even mention how defensive ww gets when challenged a little on the nature of their relationship.

I have been developing a very good rapport with MIL and she considers herself an ally to me and the M. Did I overstep any plan A boundaries by expressing my feelings that there's more going on than ww is letting on?

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - 01/06/10 10:39 PM
Quote
Try to live in TODAY... Faith replaces fear.

got it. thanks

opt
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - 01/06/10 10:41 PM
FWIW I don't think so. I have shared almost everything with my MIL to this point. If WW decides to work on recovering the M, then I will completely back off with the MIL. I heard it said that WS family should be told, but not become a part of recovery. I also heard it said that they can and should be included in efforts to end the A.

I would just watch the boundaries. JMHO (Just my humble opinion??)
Posted By: Doormat_No_More Re: Another EA Story - 01/06/10 10:49 PM
My father-in-law and mother-in-law were part of my support system during my wife's affair. The only family member that supported her affair was my sister-in-law... though really, it wasn't support, it was the common "she needs to do what makes her happy and I want to stay out of it" speech I got over and over again during exposure.

The in-laws were a huge help, talking me through some of my difficulties, sharing their own difficulties (her dad had an affair in his thirties, and an EA a few years ago, now in his late fifties) and consoling me through mine. As well as whacking FWW with the clue-bat periodically.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - quick update - 01/11/10 05:03 PM
WW and DS13 are in the US and I will pick them up at the airport at 2pm.

Not much time, but a quick update is that I'm a little nervous but not as much as I could be.

The last 2 weeks has been like a mini plan B (no contact with ww possible for most of it) for me and gave me a lot of confidence that I can live without my w (although I would much prefer NOT to, lol). I feel like its' the confidence I need to continue with a fabulous Plan A with NO EXPECTATIONS.

opt

Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - quick update - 01/11/10 05:26 PM
Good luck, opt. Keep us posted. It will be interesting to see how she greets you!
Posted By: catperson Re: Another EA Story - quick update - 01/11/10 05:56 PM
Greet her with her favorite flowers.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - quick update - 01/12/10 07:26 PM
ww: Still wayward. Still foggy.

Me: No expectations.

Anyway � here�s the update:
Greeted at the airport. Obligatory hug and short conversation, then she went off and talked with the (female) cruise director for a while and looked for her luggage. I wasn�t getting the vibe I had hoped for. Oh, well.

I dropped them off at home, but had to go back to work for a little while. She noticed a change I had made in the decorating scheme in the hallway: I changed some old pictures of DS13 with some pictures from our wedding (later that night she would tell me that she felt I was trying to manipulate her with that). We had time to open a couple of the little gifts that D8 and I picked up for her while in NY. Incredible how unappreciative a wayward can be- hardly a �thank-you.� Totally self-absorbed & entitled, traits she NEVER used to have.

Another change I had made was that I converted her �bed� in the �guest room� back to a couch. She had slept in our bed the night before she left, and it was entirely inconvenient to have the bed in there with nobody even sleeping in it, so I felt it was appropriate; I figured I could change it back IF she wanted. Well, of course, she wanted, and it turned out to be enough of an infraction that it came up right away. �Why did you fold the bed up?� I pointed out the inconvenience and said I�d put it back but then the subject dropped until bed time when she said she�d sleep in our bed which she did for about 20 minutes then went to the couch. This change was another part of the �I feel you�re trying to manipulate me� sentiment mentioned above. I did a good job verifying this statement and not trying to justify it. I said I�d change everything back and I said it in a nice loving way. I told her I had had some time to think about us and just wanted to have some memories of better times around. Not sure how this was all received but it didn�t turn into an argument, so that�s good.

The FB thing came up in the same conversation. �You know that was a little bit rude to go in and alter someone�s page, right?� Of course I affirmed this as much as I could (�it was risky�) but resisted the temptation to point out that it is also rude to portray oneself as �not married� by leaving their R status blank. All-in-all I really think this obvious LB was worth the risk because Potential OM #2 definitely got the message that at least one party in this marriage still considers themselves married and he (the victim of xw�s affair) is tampering with more than he bargains for with cultivating his R with my W.

Today, her FB status was changed back to �not married.� That one hurts a lot more than I thought it would.

She figured out her email PW�s were screwed up. Hopefully that will blow over without incident.

So, that�s the bad news. My next post will outline the few glimmers of hope, some of my impressions and the things I've learned from the last few weeks; and my resolve to continue with Plan A for the time being.

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - quick update - 01/12/10 08:58 PM
(...followup)

Here�s what I did right:
I listened intently to all the stories about the trip. She had met a lot of interesting people and was quite excited. I listened well and asked good questions to keep it going the best I could. [never once did she ask about our experience while she was gone�and I didn�t spend much time interjecting with it].

I made a nice T-bone dinner for them both when I got home from work (DS loves steak, ww loves mashed potatoes).

After dinner I sat through the viewing of literally 500+ pictures. It really was interesting � unbelievable terrain/views etc. After about 400 of them she started reaching over and touching me on the arm while telling the stories of a picture. I thought that was a good sign, it was like she was trying to connect with me, at least for that particular time. Either way, it didn�t go un-noticed.

Again, as mentioned above, no arguments came from her �addressing� the changes I had made while she was gone. Typically, those conversations don�t end well around here and I was pretty happy to have come away from it without negativity.

After I affirmed and re-affirmed and didn�t react negatively to her comments, she flipped around from being upset at me to the old �maybe we can live together as friends� theme about the future. I let that one drop per Plan A. Frankly, I�ll take that over other things she has said which were much more severe (trial separations, D, etc.).

**The letter campaign APPEARS to have had no effect whatsoever. However, I look at those (and all the other efforts) as rocks placed under the water as foundation for what�s to come, with any luck. As far as that goes though, I also feel I�ve learned the importance of not just COMMUNICATION to my ww, but that what�s most important to her is HER COMMUICATING her feelings to ME. Clearly, me communicating with her while she was gone did very little in the way of meeting EN�s. Therefore it would stand to reason that her talking and being listened to is extremely important to her. This is also an EN that most likely she is having met by (previously) OM and possibly now by POM#2. Unfortunately, I have given her little reason over the past 15 years to trust that she can come to me with her thoughts/feelings (DJ�s and tendency to be �hurt�/reactionary). So, Plan A has to focus on meeting this EN when possible and consistently not reacting negatively to anything she states (Limbo was advised by a vet of something similar recently).
opt
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - quick update - 01/12/10 10:07 PM
Wow opt - you sure do earn your nickname. You have a great attitude. I'm not sure I could have stayed as cool as you did considering her reaction. Changing the FB status back would have done me in. Good for you in how you handled it.

Well done. You're throwing a lot of 'rocks' into the stream to build that footbridge, and I hope that you will soon see some significant progress. You deserve it.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - quick update - 01/13/10 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by Linus
Wow opt - you sure do earn your nickname. You have a great attitude. I'm not sure I could have stayed as cool as you did considering her reaction. Changing the FB status back would have done me in. Good for you in how you handled it.

Well done. You're throwing a lot of 'rocks' into the stream to build that footbridge, and I hope that you will soon see some significant progress. You deserve it.

Hey thanks Linus, I was needing some encouragment as inside I was feeling pretty low about that a good part of the day. For the Record, I know I have some of this coming, since it was Independent Behavior that I used to change her status in the first place. So, although it was difficult not to "react" to this shenanigan, I tried to recognize the LB aspect of the situation.
I forgot the funny part of all this FB stuff: last night when she confronted me I looked up with a big smile and said "did you like my improvements?" Went over like a fartinchurch, but in retrospect it was kinda comical.

Development:
Finally tonight we had a few minutes alone (DS basketball and D8 to friend neigbor). I took the opportunity to ask if she "had anything to talk to me about regarding your facebook status showing you as not married."
Well, she went to 3 different levels of explanation in about 15 seconds (fog-babbly type stuff). The more I listened without reacting, the more she elaborated. It was quite brilliant in a way. Remembering past mistakes, I even navigated well by not apologizing, or even recognizing outloud my role in the whole thing (I kinda already did that last night). I just listened and affirmed "I can see how you would feel that way." After her head stopped spinning on it's axis for a minute, the bottom line finally came out: she changed it back b/c she was hopping pi$$ed that I changed it in the first place.
So, once she got that out guess what happened next? She actually came upstairs and initiated a bit of a conversation. (!) Of course I again implemented all my new techniques (Friends/Enemies of Good Conversation from this site). We proceded to have a very meaningful conversation. A couple of drifts into R talk, but I was able to quickly redirect. Lots of fog phrases "...maybe that means we just weren't meant to be together...We're drifting apart..." Oh, and a killer: " I want to be someone my kids look up to as a role model." I almost burst out laughing.
Any insight into this one would be appreciated: She was talking about how we both seem to be going through "paradigm shifts" (me with being more "conservative and dependent" lol/fogbab and her "more open minded and liberal and more independent" fogbab) but something that stuck out was: "Your reading all these books and going to those chat rooms is freaking me out"
[color:#FF0000]What is that, and how do I respond without LBing?![/
color]
Anyway, I digress.
It was a good 15-20 minutes of Undivided Attention and she seemed to respond well. Later I actually got a couple of nice sincere hugs before she retired to the couch, lol (wacky waywards, I still have no idea why she won't sleep in her bed. It's not like I bite. I just don't understand the "statement" she is making and for crying out loud this bed is comfortable). I plan to ask her more about this now that I have started to develop some trust - although I know one battle is not the war. I have a lot of proving to do to get her to trust that I can really be someone to talk to and meet that EN.

Well, thanks folks for your interest and thoughts.

opt



Posted By: catperson Re: Another EA Story - quick update - 01/13/10 06:57 AM
You're doing fine.

Quote
I want to be someone my kids look up to as a role model." I almost burst out laughing.
I sure wish you would have, though. Once in a while, they really DO need some consequences. Pointing out NON-marriage actions is not an LB. It is fighting affairs. Perfectly acceptable in Plan A.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - need plan A support - 01/13/10 10:24 PM
Plan A question: [Talk about Domestic Support....]

Okay, ww works at 2:30, leaves at 1:30 (till 7:30p).
That leaves 5.5 hours for this SAHM to do something around the house that would benefit the family.
Not one thread of laundry done, even though she has 2 weeks worth of clothes from the trip piling up.

This has DJ and AO written all over it, but I'm thinking Plan A doesn't allow for a firm cross examination as to what exactly she does while I'm at work putting bread on the table.

MB friends, I know this probably isn't a big deal in the grand scheme, but a little encouragement would be much appreciated. I'm seathing inside, but really want to stick with Plan A.

Is this just normal Taker-in-Charge/Entitled/ww behavior???
Should I try to lovingly bring it up, or just do it and leave it alone??

opt
How do you lovingly bring it up? Phrase it with a suggestion of what you need, not what she is or isn't doing.

"How would you feel if we did some laundry together?"

"How can I help you around the house tonight?"

"I'd love it if we worked together on housecleaning tonight."

Two points:
1. Make it something you are doing TOGETHER. Deposit some Love Units.
2. Do not demand, be disrespectful, or angry to her. Do not point out her faults in any way. Express it only as your preference, that you are willing to do your part, and you want to HELP her... not replace her, and not force her to do anything against her will.

You want to make her drool over the husband you can be, and use that "contrast effect" to maximum advantage.

You have the Home Field Advantage.

The Other Man never did her laundry.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - need plan A support - 01/13/10 10:54 PM
Barnboy, I know you've heard this before but you are great!

I will definitely use those suggestions; it's exactly the perspective I was looking for.

As it turns out I had a bit of a false alarm - just talked to ww and she reports having fallen asleep after the kids left for school and crashed until work sleep . I am inclined to believe her since she did have a pretty strenuous trip with a full 24 hours of travel only 2 days ago. Also, her computer hx checks out.

Certainly, I am totally embarrassed blush
But let's face it, this is how LBs often happen, by rushing to judgement.
I hope this post (and BB's advice) helps more than just me (i.e. I hope I'm not the only fool to fall victim to their own emotional nature).

Thanks again BB.

opt

Wow how insane can a ww be?
[POM#2= Potential Other Man # Two, I have my own acronym]

With all my strength and faith in the strategies learned here, I believe I navigated a couple more minefields last night.

Asked ww about her sentiment that my �reading all those books and using the chat rooms� was �freaking her out.�
Various foggy answers like �you�re so regimented, �it seems like a cult, �I�m not like that, and never will be, �I follow my heart, �all your efforts (like the letters) are OVERWHELMING, �I feel like you�re trying to MANIPULATE me�
After some more questions and no reactions, I got �see, this is why we don�t get along, because you never just know what I�m trying to say.� That�s what I get for trying for once to legitimately communicate and really understand what she�s saying without judging or imposing any of my beliefs on her (how many wives would love to have a man interested enough to even listen to them for 10 minutes?). I really think she was actually just getting frustrated because the more she talked the less sense she made and she probably realized she was talking herself into knots, but I�m not assuming or expecting anything; just theorizing. Anyway, it�s still mostly foggy babble and I�m just listening and hoping the fog clears.

I can see how she might think I am trying to manipulate her to some extent. Putting the pictures of our wedding in the hallway, I thought to myself �this way she�ll be reminded she�s married every time she comes in the door.� The LB of changing her FB status was definitely manipulation and mostly with a target of POM#2 � guilty as charged, but again, I think I made a point and it was worth the risk. The difference last night was that I never apologized for my actions � I think that is having an effect. MLane and other vets say a ww wants their H to stand up to the A and take bold, unrepentant actions; I have found strength in that.

One positive that came from the conversation was that I asked her what would be more appealing to her (than the daily letters sent while she was gone for 15 days out of the country/beyond possible communication�). She said �ACTIONS.� So I turned into Briar Rabbit and replied in the affirmative �you�re right, we should only go by each other�s actions, not words.� I felt like I made good use of an opportunity there. Later in the evening (see next post), the theme would be repeated. I hope to keep going back to it. My ww has a moral code somewhere deep down in there (and she values honesty), I�m hoping all this helps her remember what it was before she went into fantasy/fog land. If she knows I�m looking at her actions, she may shake off some of the lying and deceitfulness. Just a hope, NOT and EXPECTATION.

Either way, she seemed up-beat after this conversation. Hopefully she is again realizing that she can talk to me without being EVALUATED as I have done in the past.

�UP-BEAT enough to lead to the next chapter in the saga that happened later that evening. [stay tuned]


opt
You are not manipulating her. In MB-speak, you are changing YOUR behavior.

How she chooses to behave is her own deal.

So, in this apparently uplifted state, she feels it appropriate to phone POM#2, in my presence, and invite him to go grocery shopping tomorrow.
[Somebody please tell me it�s at least a good sign that she�s not sneaking around behind my back doing this.]
As far as I know from my info gathering, she has NOT spoken with him since she returned. I believe this is significant.
She then proceeds to get all jubilated that she is going shopping and tries to elicit encouragement from me with �high five.�
At this point, I know I�m in for a Plan A Test on this one.
So, I explain that while I�m happy she�s going shopping, I wished that she was going with me. She picks up the vibe and starts in with �you aren�t still jealous about POM#2, are you?!�
We then get into a deep discussion about my FEELINGs being hurt and my concern about his intentions. I stick to my guns every time she tries to embattle me and bait me into a LB by reiterating that I�m not trying to control her behavior, I just don�t trust people like I used to after �what I�ve been through� for the last several months. The fog-babble reached a new level. �I�ve always been this way, I�ve always had male friends in my life,�if you can�t understand that then this is not going to work, �He is like a girlfriend to me, �he would never pursue anything with me, � he just compliments me to make me feel good just like any other friend would, my friends are like my cheerleaders to me,� (I told her I could go for a few cheerleaders in my life, preferably between the ages of 25 and 30). laugh
I just tried to continue to come back to my feeling that he was attracted to her (which he is) and that I didn�t feel safe with the idea of her going shopping with him. I also asked her if she would tell me if he came to her and said he had �feelings for her.� She said yes. I don�t believe it for a second, but at least she has the thought in her head.

Ultimately, because she is stubborn, defiant, and enveloped in a self-righteous, self-centered, self-absorbed, self-centered, fantasy she persisted with the appointment and will be going shopping with this loser, former friend, today. mad

But I feel I made my point. And I think that her ego would not let her back down, but knowing my wife, the NEXT time, she�ll think twice. She won�t make it obvious, but she�ll try to respect me and then make it look like it was HER OWN idea.

Anyway, as this thing develops I will continue to put pressure on the situation in any way I can. I will do what I can to disrupt the impending A, or at least inappropriate activity without LBing because I have a right to my feelings too. I will take any suggestions about how I can �break up� future �appointments,� but at this point, I�m thinking of giving POM#2 a call in the next couple of days to ask him what his INTENTIONS are with my wife. I figure that will let him know I�m not a party to his accepting invitations from her. I believe, as I�ve said before, he actually has a shred of class. I also wonder if there�s anyway to do a mini-exposure with her friends, to see if they might have any influence.�input would be appreciated.

I almost feel silly going over this stuff here because of so many with wayward spouses who blatantly carry on open sexual affairs right in front of their BS�s. I think of my friends Limbo, and Linus, Fred, and so many threads I�ve been reading from the vets as well.
But I don�t want this apparently relatively benign situation to evolve. And honestly, I found the strength to not break down in these past few conversations purely BECAUSE of the horrendous situations I�ve read about here. I feel like I�m fighting fog and fighting adultery partly for so many in the same, similar, or past situations.

Lo-and-Behold, last night, she actually went to bed in our bed and stayed there. Could this be a sign that she�s feeling safer and able to talk to me? (I still don�t really know what a ww is trying to tell her BH when they insist on sleeping in a separate room�could anyonw help me with this?). Prior to going to sleep we all watched idol together on the bed like the old-days. She seemed somehow content. She left her phone out on the counter.

Next Plan A re-evaluation on Jan 22 (2 months full with minimal LB's - unless I goof up before then).

opt
Originally Posted by optimism
So, in this apparently uplifted state, she feels it appropriate to phone POM#2, in my presence, and invite him to go grocery shopping tomorrow.
[Somebody please tell me it�s at least a good sign that she�s not sneaking around behind my back doing this.]

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!...this is NOT appropriate behavior for a MARRIED WOMAN. EVER. And no it is NOT a "good" sign that she's doing it in FRONT OF YOU....She has lost all RESPECT for you......
Originally Posted by opt
As far as I know from my info gathering, she has NOT spoken with him since she returned. I believe this is significant.

Why would this be significant?...she just got back. Barely 48 hrs., and she is calling this man??... crazy

YOur wife is a self-indulged, spoiled brat...
Originally Posted by opt
She then proceeds to get all jubilated that she is going shopping and tries to elicit encouragement from me with �high five.�

puke
Originally Posted by opt
[So, I explain that while I�m happy she�s going shopping, I wished that she was going with me. She picks up the vibe and starts in with �you aren�t still jealous about POM#2, are you?!�
We then get into a deep discussion about my FEELINGs being hurt and my concern about his intentions. I stick to my guns every time she tries to embattle me and bait me into a LB by reiterating that I�m not trying to control her behavior, I just don�t trust people like I used to after �what I�ve been through� for the last several months. The fog-babble reached a new level. �I�ve always been this way, I�ve always had male friends in my life,�if you can�t understand that then this is not going to work, �He is like a girlfriend to me, �he would never pursue anything with me, � he just compliments me to make me feel good just like any other friend would, my friends are like my cheerleaders to me,� (I told her I could go for a few cheerleaders in my life, preferably between the ages of 25 and 30). laugh
I just tried to continue to come back to my feeling that he was attracted to her (which he is) and that I didn�t feel safe with the idea of her going shopping with him. I also asked her if she would tell me if he came to her and said he had �feelings for her.� She said yes. I don�t believe it for a second, but at least she has the thought in her head.

QUIT LISTENING TO HER....She is a wayward, foggy snot....You listening to her is like listening to a fallen down drunk!!!!......

NONE of this above is part of Plan A. None of it. She is doing what she wants and when you object, she spins you round and round.....

Ultimately, because she is stubborn, defiant, and enveloped in a self-righteous, self-centered, self-absorbed, self-centered, fantasy she persisted with the appointment and will be going shopping with this loser, former friend, today. mad

Originally Posted by opt
But I feel I made my point.

which was??????

Originally Posted by opt
And I think that her ego would not let her back down, but knowing my wife, the NEXT time, she�ll think twice. She won�t make it obvious, but she�ll try to respect me and then make it look like it was HER OWN idea.

No she won't. She is not THINKING at all about YOU. Not one ounce!!!.....

Originally Posted by opt
She seemed somehow content. She left her phone out on the counter.

Of course she was content. She got what she wanted....she is cake-eatting to the fullest!!!!!

She has whatever fun she wants to have with OM'S and YOU at home taking care of everything....who the heck wouldn't want that????!!!!....ESPECIALLY a WAYWARD....

You need to get ready for Plan B. Because, to me, there isn't ANYTHING that is gonna wake your WIFE up except a good kick of reality.....

not2fun

ps....If your wife is working, she is NOT a SAHM. SAHM do not have jobs outside of the home. It matters not if her hours aren't the "normal" daytime working hours......

pss.....I know I was harse, but your wife is just ticking me off and I know for me, that all this crap she has been spewing at you, I wouldn't have kept myself in check. She is sticking the knife in over and over....it's time you ACT to the trauma

Next Plan A re-evaluation on Jan 22 (2 months full with minimal LB's - unless I goof up before then).

opt
[/quote]
What not said.

Go ahead and call POM#2. Let him know what the new BH is going to do if he finds out they go ANYWHERE together again. Tell him he is welcome to come to the house - WHEN YOU ARE THERE, TOO. Otherwise, kindly hang out with other single people.
Okay, N2F. Your feedback well received and highly respected as usual.

Quote
And no it is NOT a "good" sign that she's doing it in FRONT OF YOU....She has lost all RESPECT for you......

I felt like I have been making some progress in my ability to express my feelings without LBing, and making her feel heard. FWIW, in retrospect and by comparison, I can't even imagine the lack of respect she used to have for me. blush


Quote
You need to get ready for Plan B
So, I'm up against this question again. Not sure how to Plan B without proof of an active entrenched affair. Most of the Plan B's I've read about here are pretty involved as such. My ww is spoiled, no doubt. It just all seems too nebulous to me to go to such drastic measures as to move out and establish NC with ww and everything else that goes along with Plan B. I also understand Plan B to be utilized in circumstances when the BS's Love Bank is almost dry. I'm not sure I'm there yet. I really want to see how this progresses.
I'll definitely keep my thread updated and if it starts getting that close, I'll be looking for big advice on how to implement Plan B.

opt

Originally Posted by optimism
�I�ve always been this way, I�ve always had male friends in my life,�if you can�t understand that then this is not going to work, �He is like a girlfriend to me, �he would never pursue anything with me, � he just compliments me to make me feel good just like any other friend would, my friends are like my cheerleaders to me,�

This infuriates me, because my wayward used EXACTLY these same lines on me months before D-Day.

Think about the Love Bank. Think about exclusive needs-meeting. If that other man is meeting her need, then she's going to fall in love with him like OM#1. It's inevitable. It's the way humanity works. She doesn't feel in love with him today, maybe he's just at 500 Love Bank units and her threshold for romantic love is 1000 (or maybe 600 when she's drunk). But if he deposits love units long enough, she WILL fall in love with him.

Rather than trying to educate her on this fact, perhaps a different tack. "Sweetheart, in order for us to turn our marriage into a fantastic marriage, I feel it's important for us to spend our most enjoyable moments together. I'd love to spend these most enjoyable moments with you rather than with anyone else. Come on, let's go shopping together."

Find a sitter, head out, enjoy some shopping. Shopping with my wife deposits MASSIVE amounts of Love Units... and it's something I used to hate, but once I changed my attitude about it and realized it was Recreational Activity for my wife, I tolerate it much better smile
Originally Posted by optimism
So, I'm up against this question again. Not sure how to Plan B without proof of an active entrenched affair. Most of the Plan B's I've read about here are pretty involved as such.

Opt,

The thing is do YOU want a marriage where your wife is running around, acting all hoochy, putting "looking for" on her FB, basically, do you want you wife the way she is RIGHT NOW???

I can't think of ONE man who would say yes to that question. Re-read all of the posts YOU have written. What you think if one of your guy friends told you about his wife behaving like this???....

Go into the Newsletters section and read "When to call it quits".....



Originally Posted by opt
My ww is spoiled, no doubt.{/quote]]

And if you "put" up with this much longer, you will grow to resent and hate her. And your marriage for all intents purpose, WILL BE OVER.

[quote=opt] It just all seems too nebulous to me to go to such drastic measures as to move out and establish NC with ww and everything else that goes along with Plan B.


Ok, I had to look up "nebulous" to figure out what the heck you meant. To me you are saying you are too scared to do this. I understand this. Heck ya its a crap shoot. She may say "see ya". BUT.....

The thing is your wife reminds me of my sister and mom. And YOU remind me of my dad and BIL. If you look up doormat, you'll find their pictures. My mom had 3, yes THREE affairs. She threw my dad out a 2 years ago. He still remodels the house, takes care of everything in it, pays MOST of the bills, takes care of the cars. And where is he?...Living with his parents at 56yrs of age.

He wants to reconcile, she doesn't (she is not currently in an affair, but she is so wayward, I need a lighthouse everytime I see her....). He won't divorce her for religious reasons, she won't divorce him, why?.....why would she??....she has him gone, doing whatever whenever she wants, and him STILL meeting some of her needs.

Him, he's getting SQUAT.

This will be your future my friend, UNLESS you take action NOW!!!

Originally Posted by opt
I also understand Plan B to be utilized in circumstances when the BS's Love Bank is almost dry. I'm not sure I'm there yet.

Most BS'S don't know when "almost" dry is. By the time that they do, they are done with the marriage. When I read about the crap your WW is spewing at you, I have to cringe. All the effort you put into those letters, and for her to come out with this "manipulation" stuff..... sick

You are near the time to decide which way you want this to go.......but much longer of Plan A and you will only be in Plan Doormat...aka, Plan C....

not2fun
Well N2fun, you�ve certainly given me plenty of things to consider. I�ve been somewhat discouraged for the last few days.

You�re right about a lot of things.

A Plan B (or D) might indeed be eminent. Of course before I do that, I�ll have a lot of preparations to make. In fact given the magnitude of the situation, I don�t think doing anything without reasonable preparation is advised. Agreed?

So I need to present a couple of questions to make sure I�m clear.

My understanding of Plan A is that it can last up to 6 months after exposure, even during an active full blown, totally entrenched A. My exposure was October 28 and that A is over with last contact on Nov 30 (6 weeks). Since I did such a poor job with Plan A in the beginning, I consider it to have started on Nov 22 (7 weeks). I am also of the impression that fogbabble is to be IGNORED as fantastical musings. It seems that jumping into Plan B based on a bunch of spewed crap would be entirely reactionary. While some of it does hurt, I�m trying to avoid being reactionary.

Of note: Cat had suggested back in Nov that, due to the circumstances of my own past adultery being revealed as recently as 11/11, my Plan A should probably extend from �6 months maybe up to a year.�

Now, my Plan A is supposed to be for cutting through fog and providing an environment that ww will miss when Plan B is implemented (or D/B). I think I�m dealing with pretty thick fog here. I know you�re not advocating immediate shift, but I think you envision the time-table moved up. I�m not sure why. 6 or 7 weeks of NC and fog-busting is really not that much, from stuff I�ve read here. In retrospect, even though I wasn�t having A�s for the last 8 years, I resembled a foggy wayward to the extent that I wasn�t really invested in the M (didn�t really know how to do that until MB, we co-existed). For years I drank regularly, not to excess, but enough not to be totally invested in my R. I also used internet porn regularly to supplement W�s low libido (since MB, I see all that differently). In Oct the porn habit was obiliterated. Haven�t drank since Nov 22. Two to three of months of Plan A really doesn�t seem fair after 8 years of a lack-luster ignorant approach to marriage, KWIM?

I totally understand your point that the resentment is building daily and she makes regular withdrawals. However, I truly believe that I can (and should, given my extraordinary contribution to the current state of our marriage) tolerate a considerable amount more than average. I feel that I owe it to myself and my W, and our M to exhibit saint-like patience. She also isn�t especially intolerable to be around most of the time, there�s even an occasional deposit into the loveBank.

Having said that, I am not a saint. I know there will be a limit to the amount of disappointment I can endure. I have no intention of moving in with my parents at 56 or 46 or any other age. I will not be a doormat throughout the Plan A process. I don�t believe that is part of Plan A. I intend to make every effort to disrupt any further A-like activity and behavior. She doesn�t like it at all when I question her and challenge her on her associations; but it does have an impact on her thinking. It may even �push her away� like she says, but if it pushes her out the door and into D, I�m ready to live with that to keep my dignity intact.


Each perceived attempt to develop a second A is met with considerable, and considerate resistance. Thursday night I again (at 11pm) questioned her on the R with POM#2. She knows where I stand (that�s what I meant with �made my point� in previous post). She knows it�s not going to be me standing down and letting her proceed �as she wishes.� This is totally different than the last A she had. The fantasy of this potential A is already being pulled out from under her as we speak. Friday I had a conversation with POM#2. He knows my feelings � the fantasy for him is at least diminished. I learned from the summer and MB. He�s promised not to cultivate the relationship and as a friend, I wouldn�t be surprised if he honors that. Of course I�ll continue to monitor the activity to the utmost of my ability and go by actions not words. I�m not Plan C�ing as much as you think, N2F.

Friday night she threw a house party for her friend�s birthday. In the past it would have been a perfect excuse to invite the neighbor (pom#2) over, even as the night went on � that did not happen this time.

Fortunately for me, he is about 45 days from a foreclosure on his house. His mother left it for him and his drug-addicted brothers and they have yet to come up with any financial contribution towards the mortgage. He�s �disabled� and doesn�t work. His proximity might not be an issue by March/April.

I also feel that my Plan A is gradually helping ME build strength. I have been developing confidence in my ability to withstand the fog-babble, not LB, and stand up to the potential 2nd A. My strength and confidence in myself grows as I resist temptations to drink, spend more time with family (including in-laws) and introspect, which includes writing here and getting feedback. My recon is okay, and will only improve. I need more Plan A, for me.

There have been steps in the right direction. I truly believe ww is starting to develop some trust in my ability to listen without judging her. We have had some good conversations with undistracted time. This is not going to be a revelation � it took us a long time for our relationship to get to this point of disarray and I think continued diligence along with patience is needed for now.

Am I scared to go to Plan D/B? Of course! It�s completely impractical for one. And I really don�t have the money to move out. I don�t know how to get her out. Regardless, it�s a monumental step and I really feel I�ll have to have my ducks in a row (financial, child care, lawyers, who-knows-what-else, etc.) prior- that could take weeks. Presumably those weeks would require a continued simultaneous Plan A.

So, where am I going wrong?



opt
You're not.

You're doing wonderfully well.
Posted By: optimism Another EA Story - another long post... - 01/19/10 10:32 PM
Lesson learned. Again.

Big conversation last night with ww which starts with �can we talk?�
I figured I was in for about anything but agreed and quickly gave myself a little MB �pep talk� in my head.

So I got to hear more about how we�re just �heading in different directions.� I�m becoming more �conservative� and she�s more �liberal.� [I guess by conservative she means I believe that marriage is between TWO people.]

As it went on I just kept catching knuckleballs. No reactions, no judgments, no arguments.

She brought up the Facebook thing again (I had changed her status when she left her computer open � from �no relationship� to �married� amoung a few other little "improvements"). She stated that it was an extremely inappropriate and disrespectful thing to do. I agreed and let her know that I let my emotions get the best of me, that I just was trying to do what I thought was best for our marriage, etc.
She went on to reiterate a previous sentiment that �I�m keeping her a prisoner in this marriage� and �I treat her like property.� The FB thing was definitely an act of proprietary license, I recognize that. You guys told me I messed up and I knew there would be ramifications/consequences, so I guess that�s what�s going on. Given my past, I suppose it was a bigger LB than I care to imagine. Given the actual CONTEXT (her advertising herself as unmarried) the LB road is going both ways on this one and I�m quite certain she recognizes that on some level. Still, I certainly should have handled it differently! I wish I had. But I guess we move on.

Also I got to hear how she�s not �attracted� to me, she doesn�t �like,� me and she wouldn�t �date� me. I�m not interesting and I don�t have any dreams (I told her I do have a dream � that we would have a mutually enjoyable relationship based on honesty and trust). Apparently the only thing I have going for me is that I�m �good looking� (Well, at least I got ONE compliment, lol).
She said �I�ll stay miserable in this marriage if that�s what is good for the kids�.blah,blah,blah- (can�t remember the rest.)� All I heard was that she wasn�t jumping ship, so I feel there�s still hope if I can continue to Plan A relentlessly.
Oh, and I was criticized for being so �religious� (I�ve been going to church weekly for 3 months, always been catholic). And I�ve joined a �cult� (that would be MB, pass the coolaide).
Again, I did a real, real, REAL good job not reacting.

These �conversations� have historically ended VERY badly with lots of resentment and glazing over real issues; accusations, judgments, and bringing up ancient history. Typically I would walk away feeling defeated, frustrated and extremely injured; as well as regretful for saying hurtful things and reacting.

But not this time. Just listened. And God bless her little wayward heart, it was a totally different scene for the rest of the night. She was somewhat cheerful and even smiled occasionally. I read to both kids for an hour and she got some down time. Then I offered to let her have the �big� bed alone (something I rarely do, as I won�t be kicked out of my own bed) as a gesture of peace. She DECLINED and stayed in our bed. (she even said �goodnight.� lol).

So, I have to point out to anyone who is following along and might not be too familiar with Plan A: NO LOVEBUSTERS. Above, you can see how my ww used the ONE LB I�ve had in almost 2 months to hang her hat on for this conversation/confrontation. It started with resentment and festered for a couple of days before she finally brought it up (again). She�s not going to see the 2 months of almost spotless protection I�ve offered her, she�s foggy. She�s going to use the one incident to justify her sentiment that �see, we were never meant to be together.�

On the positive side, I really think the navigation through these conversations is a huge deposit into her emotional love bank. I have a LOT of work to do to show her that she can trust me. She really has NO reason to think that she can really share things with me based on my typical reactions in the past. Two or three conversations isn�t going to get it done either. I have a LONG road ahead of me.

Funny thing is that the insults really don�t hurt that much. From reading here, I know it�s mostly fog blather. I also feel really convicted in what I�m doing, knowing I�m right gives me the confidence to stare down these ridiculous claims and not take them to heart. In the meantime, I also take it into consideration as there is probably a kernel of truth there- gives me more to work on! J

I suppose she could be quite threatened by my change of belief system. Let�s see, in the last 3 months I have:
Not drank since Nov 22, not used porn since October, gone to church weekly, stopped swearing (pretty much) around the house, stopped with angry outbursts, stopped criticizing things/people, look & smell good everyday � started wearing my contacts �cause she likes my eyes, am home 6 of 7 nights (previously 3-4), etc. Boy, based on that I guess I�m a real sonofabitch, huh?

Seriously, these cumulative changes could be quite daunting. She also has no reason to think they will last, given my history. So, she must feel like she�s on really unfamiliar ground and that must be tough. She said last night she wishes we could just go back to the way things were, when we were both disengaged in the M. Not sure what that means (help please?), except that right now she�s uncomfortable.

I suppose part of it is that she is recognizing that she�s not going to be able to carry on her little adulterous fantasy behaviors with impunity or without restriction anymore is a bit of a frustration as well.

Sometimes I wonder how she stayed with me this long. In the end she may leave me. Maybe we aren�t �compatible.� Maybe she�ll never embrace �cultish� MB concepts. Maybe she�ll eventually move on to find to search out that Romeo who can let her live the life of freedom she wants and travel the world carelessly. I can�t control her or her reaction to my trying to be the best person/husband/father I can be. In the end this experience is shaping me in ways that would have never been possible without the introspection and self-analysis that has occurred since my world was turned upside down.

Plan A all the way. No LB's. Consistency.

opt


lol, like I said, you are doing wonderfully well.

She wants it back the old way - disengaged and you being a jerk - because then she has an EXCUSE (in her mind) to have an A. If you're a jerk, she deserves to find happiness elsewhere. But if you're the greatest H out there, well, what she's doing is pretty darn disgusting.

You terrible person, you!
Ditto what Cat said.
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - another long post... - 01/20/10 11:54 AM
Opt, you're doing great. I found out (the hard way) the same thing you did - LBs REALLY set things back. It's almost like the WW is looking for an excuse to go backward, and LBs by us give them what they want.

She is still very foggy, so you're getting a lot more crap than you deserve.

"Plan A all the way. No LB's. Consistency." Well said!
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - another long post... - 01/20/10 12:43 PM
Thanks folks. I'm trying. It's the fight of my life, that's for sure. I told my son today that I'm fighting my heart out for our family, for him, his sister, mother and me. No matter how this turns out, I really want him to understand I did all I could.

I think I might be getting the hang of Plan A.

Last night ww informed me that her work schedule had moved back a couple of hours. I immediately voiced some frustration over the fact that the reason she has this job is so that she can be home with the kids, but if she�s going in at 2 and home at 7:30, it defeats the purpose. She got frustrated and stated �you�re digging your own grave� (presumably by putting pressure on her, but I didn�t pursue it obviously b/c I was too upset for it to end well). Wayward bullsh!t but also indicative of a theory I describe below*.

So, after I thought about it I realized one of my main concerns with the schedule shift is that this gives her even more time to engage in her little nefarious fantasy adultery. So, I decided to voice that concern to her in a respectful way.

�I realized that my concern about your schedule actually has more to do with the fact that, after what happened last summer, I equate you being home with you cheating on me. And my immediate thought is that with 3 extra hours, you�ll simply have more time to commit adultery.�

So she responds with some level of sincerity (as much as a lying wayward can muster) �okay, tomorrow I�ll keep a list of all the adulterous, secretive behaviors I engage in and give it to you when you get home.�

Obviously that was a bunch of hooey, but I was encouraged because it opened up a dialogue about her adultery that has previously been totally blocked. I explained �how much it would mean to me� �and how important it was for (her) to be totally honest with me.�


Here�s the rub:
I think something is up. I just can feel it in her behavior. I also think she�s getting into a sense of security and possibly sloppy. She�s sleeping in our bed and leaving her phone out. I don�t know, I just sense she�s ready to try to go into a serious cake-eating mode. *It�s almost like she�s resolved to try to �wait me out� or something, like it�s a battle of wills for who will give up on the marriage first. Meanwhile, I just don�t think she�ll be able to resist temptations (e.g. OM trying to re-establish contact, etc). She doesn�t have a plan. She doesn�t have the support I do.

She�s going to mess up and it might be soon.

MB community. When this happens I want to be prepared for it. Tell me now what to do.
A second exposure? (if so, believe me it will be massive and precise this time). Plan B? Plan D? Can I expose on a casual �hello� or do I need specific proof. How about an accidentally undeleted incoming/outgoing phone call? Do I let it roll until it's substantial?
I really really don't want to blow my sources, since I only have a couple including her phone account PW (it gives me number of texts daily, no other info) and checking her adultery phone log (for whatever she forgets to delete).

I�ve already pre-empted by speaking to my DS13 about adultery (over the w/e I gave him an explanation of how marriages work and how adultery works). Today, I explained the importance of ww not being in contact with OM and how that would be like a knife in my heart, an extreme show of disrespect, and that I would not allow him to grow up in an environment where one family member was abusing another with wanton disregard for their feelings.

Any further advice will be appreciated.

opt
Posted By: optimism Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/20/10 02:56 PM
Wow how quickly things change around here in wayward fog world!

[NotTooFun, I'm afraid I have to admit, YOU WERE RIGHT]

Stayed home from work today due to being up all night contemplating that "something was up" - (see previous post).

WW not home when I arrived shortly after she dropped off daughter8 at school. So I wait a few minutes and call her. She reports that "I'm having coffee with POM#2." We say our goodbyes and she comes home within 10 minutes. I have already resolved not to talk to her as I was too upset. But she insists on talking to me through a locked door. I did pretty well keeping my cool and stating only feelings and how she had broken my heart, she was lying by omission, that I had previousely voiced my concern about this "friendship" (to no avail) and on and on. She sees fit to report that "He is a friend, I have coffee with him 3-4 times a week!"
HOLY CRAP!! redflag
Then it turns out it's not even in public! It's at his HOUSE! sick
She is unrepentant and believes I'm making "ridiculous demands"
I say if his "friendship is more important than our marriage, so be it."


Well, I've had it. That was the last withdrawal from a very depleted love bank. She's a serial cheater and will never "get it." I've given up on her and have serious doubt that she'll ever reform.

Now I need to know what to do next. And fast. I'm home for the day.

I want to go to the bank and have all my financial assetts (what few there are) transferred to my own account. I'm going to scrape together every bit of loose change in the house.
I plan to sell my truck (her mode of transportation - the title is in my name) for a retainer.

I have a lawyer but I didn't retain her. She said she's busy in Jan/Feb, I'm hoping for the best. I don't mind it dragging out. I just became totally unattached from anything she does from this point on.

I will have a realestate person come and assess the house's value. I did some quick math last week and think I can get into a 30 year mortgage for now on something with at least two bedrooms.

She has the 10g she stole from our account after the exposure. I just looked at her screen and she was looking up apartments. Maybe she'll walk right into a Plan B!!! But I'm still going to get ready to file.

HELP!!! Let me know what to do to make this as straightforward as possible.

I'll try to set up an appointment with SH for next week too; I'm sure he'll be thrilled.
Posted By: catperson Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/20/10 03:49 PM
Most DEFINITELY go to the bank NOW. She has a history of stealing money.

Pack up her clothes and junk and either put it on the doorstep or move it to a spare bedroom.

Do another exposure and let everyone know she is choosing to not support the marriage. Call everyone before SHE has a chance to do it and spin her web.

File a restraining order on the guy so he can't come anywhere near your house.

Fill out the Plan B letter with what it would take to take her back. Put it on top of her clothes.

And get hold of that lawyer!

{{{opt}}}
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/20/10 03:54 PM
just did the money thing.
I'll expose as much as I can for the next hour or so.
on what grounds do I do a restraining order?
I'll do the clothes and PB letter while she's at work, if she goes to work....
opt
Posted By: catperson Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/20/10 03:57 PM
On the grounds that you are afraid for your children's safety and well-being. You have a young daughter. There is a man of questionable morality spending time around your daughter's mother. You think he is going to target said daughter, since he is making inappropriate moves toward a married woman. That's how perverts get to the young ones - through the desperate mothers.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/20/10 05:44 PM
okay Cat, got it.

I exposed to many of her friends so she can't "spin it"
they were all very supportive.

I have a realtor coming at 1:30 to assess the value of the house.

Title to my truck is secure out of the house.

I'll look at plan B letters now.

Would it be vindictive to cut off all the cable/internet service to the home - I'll tell her she can pay for it if she wants it but since it's my money now, I'll do with it as I please. TV was always a dcistraction from me and she spends more time on the internet than she does with domestic support - she can pay for that herself too.
?

I'll provide heat, electricity, and food. My kids can learn to read more and play board games. Of course I'll get myself an air card.

Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/20/10 06:38 PM
Cut the internet, but I'd be dayumed if I cut my cable.

Have you set up that your deposits get made to a different account? I'd make sure my employer knew that toot-sweet. If her celly is in your name, cut it now.
Posted By: indarkness Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/20/10 06:55 PM
Optimism:

Prepare yourself for battle. This sounds like its going to get ugly. Just remember rule #1 in these situations: DON'T MOVE OUT OF THE HOUSE. She may give you endless reasons why you *have* to move out. Don't buy it for a second. This is your house. DON'T LEAVE. And don't leave your kids either. They need to see that you are the strong one. That you are the one who is going to stand up to this crap. Everything you have learned about Plan A and MB is going to be your rock at this point. Be calm, be cool.

And you will survive. You may get mauled financially, but you will never starve. She's not going to get the kids full time. There is light, it's just hard to see in this state. Keep your faith strong, cuz that's where the real strength is.

Also: have a plan for how to proceed. Don't just start firing off decisions without an end game in mind. Keep the kids at the forefront of every decision you make and it will likely be the right one.

Dammit. These entitled, WW b*%$#es are really pissing me off right now.

Good luck, I'll be praying for you.
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/20/10 06:56 PM
Ah, and buy a pocket recorder....just so you can prove you aren't laying a finger on her pointed little head.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/20/10 07:14 PM
Sometimes the worm turns.
First the tools of war are fighting the affair.
Sometimes things change, the tools of war must be against the wayward.
Calls for completely different actions.


Posted By: black_raven Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/20/10 07:46 PM
Secure you money so you don't have another repeat of her taking money. Who will you use as an IM if Plan B goes forward? Do not leave your house or let her take your kids. If she will not leave are you willing to file?
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/20/10 10:02 PM
Secured the money. later noticed the joint account was "blocked" - too late ww!

She's too smart to leave. She's staying in the office. I was hoping she'd just disappear!

Have an appointment with lawyer to file on Friday. 4grand. I have 2....

So, now what - do I Plan A?? I don't have anything to be ashamed about. I figure I just keep being the good parent/person/husband I am learning how to be - that's my new belief system afterall.

Do I pick her up from work at 7:30? I'm soooooooooo tempted to tell her to have her boyfriend pick her up.

Oh, I forgot to say it. NC with OM #1 was broken on Tuesday. found it on her phone.
When confronted I revealed a "source" that I was checking her phone. (had to do it). I also told her I knew she was deleting texts. It's only a matter of time before she figures out I cracked her online account and changes that PW. At this point it don't matter. I'm out if she doens't 'come to Jesus' and that aint happening.

She called my family to say "I'm worried about opt, he seems really unstable" LOL. They just about laughed in her face.

opt.
Posted By: catperson Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/20/10 10:12 PM
Would you take her back if she comes to Jesus? If so, keep doing Plan A.

If you're done, tell her to let POSOM pick her up. And have her clothes boxed up when she gets home.
You've totally exposed to the family, right? So the wayward can't spin the story to try to pin it on you acting unstable?
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/20/10 11:19 PM
((((Opt)))),

Sorry I am late to the show!!!....(yes, I am imfamous for cracking bad jokes at inappropriate times...just ask my DD16.... grin)

Before I start, I wanted to let you know, when you asked the other day what you were doing wrong, I think you have done a WONDERFUL Plan A. You hadn't done any thing wrong. Most BS'S can't pull off a Plan A without SOME setbacks. You should have seen some of mine!!!! I DID have a feeling that WW was up to no good though...

Now on to the business at hand....

Originally Posted by optimism
Secured the money. later noticed the joint account was "blocked" - too late ww!

GOOD JOB!!!!!

Originally Posted by opt
She's too smart to leave.

You are giving her TOO much credit. Foggy, alien waywards are not using their brains!!!! EVER!!!!......IF she had been smart, she wouldn't have gotten caught today!!!!

oh, and kudos for folling your instinct!!!! If I learned ANYTHING from my H's A, it was to TRUST MY INSTINCTS!!!!

Originally Posted by opt
Have an appointment with lawyer to file on Friday. 4grand. I have 2....

Borrow the rest if you have to. What are you filing?? Divorce, legal seperation??

Originally Posted by opt
So, now what - do I Plan A?? I don't have anything to be ashamed about. I figure I just keep being the good parent/person/husband I am learning how to be - that's my new belief system afterall.

No you don't have anything to be ashamed about. The shame is all on WW. NEVER FORGET THAT.

I think you should be in a dark, dark, DARK Plan B. No more Plan A. You did your part. Plus, if you Plan A at this point, she'll think nothing is amiss and that it has all blown over. NOPE....there are consequences to her waywardness. Now, she can see them.

PLUS....I don't think you are "done" yet.......I know you are mad....PO'ED....(and rightly so!!!!), BUT....Since you have talked about setting up an appointment with Steve and if that if she were to have a "come-to-Jesus" moment, then maybe,,,,that tells me you still have some deposits in that Love Bank. GUARD IT WITH YOUR LIFE......how????

PLAN B
PLAN B
PLAN B.....

Set up an intermidetary right away, write your Plan B letter, stating your guidelines IF she were to want to return to the marriage (and set the bar HIGH!!!!!.....VERY HIGH), and then go DARK.

Originally Posted by opt
Do I pick her up from work at 7:30? I'm soooooooooo tempted to tell her to have her boyfriend pick her up.

hmmmmmmm......I wouldn't.....

Originally Posted by opt
Oh, I forgot to say it. NC with OM #1 was broken on Tuesday. found it on her phone.
When confronted I revealed a "source" that I was checking her phone. (had to do it). I also told her I knew she was deleting texts. It's only a matter of time before she figures out I cracked her online account and changes that PW. At this point it don't matter.

not surprised.......and no it doesn't matter, because in Plan B, you aren't supposed to know what WW is doing, and that includes any spying. Yep, your snooping days are over....


Originally Posted by opt
I'm out if she doens't 'come to Jesus' and that aint happening.

IF....she were to have that moment, it will happen AFTER you entered Plan B and you file, and she SEE'S that you aren't putting up with her wayward wife BS any more....You are taking a STAND for what your marriage SHOULD be......I am proud of you for that....

Originally Posted by opt
She called my family to say "I'm worried about opt, he seems really unstable" LOL. They just about laughed in her face.

rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao

WAYWARDS.... MrRollieEyes

She is trying to turn this on YOU. Good thing you got there first.....

BTW, you have mentioned more than once about her commments on this place being a "cult"....she doesn't KNOW about these forums does she???....What have you told her/what does she know/seen as far as MB is concerned???

Hang in there.....you are doing GREAT!!!!!

and

DON'T LISTEN TO ANYTHING SHE IS SPEWING RIGHT NOW....NOTHING....

{{{{{OPT}}}}}}

Not2fun
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/20/10 11:56 PM
Okay, you are all the best.
I'll address some specifics when I can.
I have some things to think about but I need a little sleep after DS gets home from RE. I just texted ww and said "I don't think it would be a good idea for me to pick you up tonight."
I truly believe that and I can't see anything good coming of it right now. She'll have to fend for herself.
Funny thing is she might not get my text, even though she ALWAYS gets OM's!

I don't even have a credit card - haven't used one in 10 years. But no worries, I'll get those details worked out. I might have a little "lag time" before I start Plan B; right now I feel I've done what I can to protect myself. And I know I'm doing the right thing for my kids and me and ultimately my foggy little wayward.

opt

Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/21/10 12:54 AM
OPT!!! Okay, even though I'm a guy, you're getting this . . . (((opt))).
Man, this sucks. You deserve better. Your WW is beyond foggy, man, she's in total FantasyLand like Disney could never have imagined.

You've done an awesome job handling all this - better than I could for sure. And while you've been fighting your own battle, I want you to know how much you have helped me.

Just keep doing the right things for you and your kids. Don't worry about WW anymore. She doesn't deserve your love.

Linus
Posted By: black_raven Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/21/10 01:07 AM
Is this your first appt with a lawyer? Many will offer a free or inexpensive first time consult. Don't be too quick to put down a retainer. You don't even have to retain an attorney to file. Do your homework.

Get your Plan B together if you are still willing to go that route. You have to have a solid plan in place before you give WW your letter.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/21/10 01:58 AM
Make it so you need a password to access the computer. That could help--canceling internet is okay, but getting it back later if you need it is a long process.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/21/10 01:23 PM
Quote
Is this your first appt with a lawyer? Many will offer a free or inexpensive first time consult. Don't be too quick to put down a retainer. You don't even have to retain an attorney to file. Do your homework.

I did the free consult with one who was recommended. I hve a meeting with her tomorrow. But I think I will cancel it. I need to scrape up some money, and I would like to look at mediation with W just to see what kind of crazy scheme she has in mind.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like there isn't much advantage in rushing things too much. It's over either way.

thanks for the tip.

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/21/10 01:41 PM
Thanks for the ((()))'s Linus. I'll take any and all!
opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/21/10 01:51 PM

Quote
PLUS....I don't think you are "done" yet.......I know you are mad....PO'ED....(and rightly so!!!!), BUT....Since you have talked about setting up an appointment with Steve and if that if she were to have a "come-to-Jesus" moment, then maybe,,,,that tells me you still have some deposits in that Love Bank. GUARD IT WITH YOUR LIFE......how????

PLAN B

Yeah, I think I'm done. I thought about it a lot last night and I really think this is a good umping off point. If she has some sort of a spontaneous mind-altering change in outlook and a sense of moral reponsibility, then I might consider reconciliation. However, at this point, I really think it's best for my kids to be around her as little as possible - at this point, this seems more easily attainable through divorce. Hanging around is only going to reinforce to ww and KIDS that this deviant behavior is acceptable. That's how ww was raised - F, SF, SF, have all had affairs, most recently her F is engaged to the woman he reunited with while his current wife was dying from emphasyma!

No need to talk to Steve.

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/21/10 01:54 PM
Okay, not sure what happens next. I guess I�ll check out the divorce boards and get some more advice from there.

WW giddy. It�s like she totally got what she wanted. Unbelievable how manipulative some people can be. And what a ploy: she knew the �friendship� thing would break me eventually, now she gets to walk away telling everybody and herself that I was �overbearing, controlling, and making �unreasonable demands� on her.� She didn�t initiate the D so, she gets to look like the good guy.

The whole thing makes me extra sick, because I have often wondered if she actually manipulated me into marrying her in the first place. (Long backstory there, but suffice it to say I have often wondered about it). God knows I spent 15 years making her needs more important than mine (at least slightly�); I don�t mind that, that�s the kind of person I am. Was. I really didn�t know how to pursue having my own needs met. I feel I now have a better handle on how to make my needs known, and how to investigate and meet a partner's needs, etc.

I�ve always tried to make the best of the situation, knowing my needs were not being met. Even before I knew about EN�s and LB�s and MB, I knew there was plenty missing in the R. But you press on for the kids and to make good on the commitment you made. You do it without a roadmap and you do it the best you can and you never think of bailing because it�s too important to keep the family unit for the kids. Funny thing, we now have the roadmap but w is now on a different course, in a different world.

Today I have animosity like I haven�t felt in years for anyone. I suppose that�s normal. But it�s probably not the best emotion to allow at this stage. This is a crucial time and I need to handle it correctly as decisions made now will be with me and my children for a long time.

She wants to do �mediation.� I hardly know what that is. I�m tempted to look at it because there might be less of an opportunity for some hot-shot lawyer to shake some sense into her. She�s foggy and stupid and I�d really like to try to take advantage of that right now.

Thanks everyone for the support and encouragement, and advice.

Its funny how the (((opt))) really feels like a hug when you need it!


opt
Posted By: catperson Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/21/10 01:59 PM
I'm so sorry.
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/21/10 02:14 PM
>They just about laughed in her face.


Your family rocks.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/21/10 03:11 PM
((((Opt)))),

I'm so sorry.....I don't have time to get into it at the moment but I still think you should be Plan B'ing her sorry butt right now. It will benefit YOU.....there are others on here who did Plan B while doing a divorce. It saves your sanity!!!!

You are a good man......and you will take the knowledege you learned here and be a better partner one day for it.....

hug

not2fun
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/21/10 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
Okay, not sure what happens next. I guess I�ll check out the divorce boards and get some more advice from there.

WW giddy. It�s like she totally got what she wanted. Unbelievable how manipulative some people can be. And what a ploy: she knew the �friendship� thing would break me eventually, now she gets to walk away telling everybody and herself that I was �overbearing, controlling, and making �unreasonable demands� on her.� She didn�t initiate the D so, she gets to look like the good guy.

The whole thing makes me extra sick, because I have often wondered if she actually manipulated me into marrying her in the first place. (Long backstory there, but suffice it to say I have often wondered about it). God knows I spent 15 years making her needs more important than mine (at least slightly�); I don�t mind that, that�s the kind of person I am. Was. I really didn�t know how to pursue having my own needs met. I feel I now have a better handle on how to make my needs known, and how to investigate and meet a partner's needs, etc.
Opt, I really feel your pain here. I still am not entirely sure why WXH married me in the first place and there's a long backstory to that too. You will spend a lot of time attempting to dicsect your entire relationship with this woman, unfortunately. It does get better with time - everybody says that I know but it's true.
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I�ve always tried to make the best of the situation, knowing my needs were not being met. Even before I knew about EN�s and LB�s and MB, I knew there was plenty missing in the R. But you press on for the kids and to make good on the commitment you made. You do it without a roadmap and you do it the best you can and you never think of bailing because it�s too important to keep the family unit for the kids. Funny thing, we now have the roadmap but w is now on a different course, in a different world.
Yep.
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Today I have animosity like I haven�t felt in years for anyone. I suppose that�s normal. But it�s probably not the best emotion to allow at this stage. This is a crucial time and I need to handle it correctly as decisions made now will be with me and my children for a long time.
Very, very true. I'm glad you see this as it will serve you well.
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She wants to do �mediation.� I hardly know what that is. I�m tempted to look at it because there might be less of an opportunity for some hot-shot lawyer to shake some sense into her. She�s foggy and stupid and I�d really like to try to take advantage of that right now.
What she wants is a quick and "amicable" divorce where she gets everything. There is no such thing as an amicable divorce so don't be fooled into thinking it can happen. Divorce is ugly no matter how you slice it. Knowing this, and knowing your decisions are crucial will help you make the best ones. It's not about taking advantage of HER, it's about preventing her from taking advantage of YOU! She is STILL a wayward. That didn't change because Plan D is in progress. This means that she will still feel entitled to everything and she will lie to get it. Be very aware of this. Don't believe anything she says and don't give her the benefit of the doubt that she won't go for the jugular.
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Thanks everyone for the support and encouragement, and advice.

Its funny how the (((opt))) really feels like a hug when you need it!


opt

Another (((opt))) for you!
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/21/10 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by not2fun
((((Opt)))),

I'm so sorry.....I don't have time to get into it at the moment but I still think you should be Plan B'ing her sorry butt right now. It will benefit YOU.....there are others on here who did Plan B while doing a divorce. It saves your sanity!!!!

You are a good man......and you will take the knowledege you learned here and be a better partner one day for it.....

hug

not2fun

Hey thanx N2F. I know you're getting back to me, but until then if anyone has any quick tips on how to get into a Plan B type thing (for my own sanity) while the little liar is still in the house, that would be helpful.
She's called me twice today, I don't answer. I just don't even want to hear her voice. I didn't say goodbye to her this am. She repulses me.
I'm moving on - using "the 180" if people are familiar with that. but how to handle the live-in demon is really a question at this time.

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/21/10 05:09 PM
Quote
What she wants is a quick and "amicable" divorce where she gets everything. There is no such thing as an amicable divorce so don't be fooled into thinking it can happen. Divorce is ugly no matter how you slice it. Knowing this, and knowing your decisions are crucial will help you make the best ones. It's not about taking advantage of HER, it's about preventing her from taking advantage of YOU! She is STILL a wayward. That didn't change because Plan D is in progress. This means that she will still feel entitled to everything and she will lie to get it. Be very aware of this. Don't believe anything she says and don't give her the benefit of the doubt that she won't go for the jugular.

Thanks Tabby for pointing that out. You're so right. I guess during the conversation she had yesterday with my sister she has a real fantasy about D (like they all do). I'll talk to her about mediation without reactions, just as a sort of "recon" mission.

"know thy enemy"

She hasn't spoken to my sister in months and months. It's like she was trying to influence the situation by spewing a bunch of crap about "amicable divorce" and "I'll work part-time to help him out" think (huh?). She told my family I was "unstable" - we've been joking about it since. Poor stupid wayward. My sister would step in front of a moving train for me. (and me for her)

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/21/10 09:18 PM
I'm thinking of implementing a little Plan Foxxy-Cagey.

This isn't my idea but I was advised by a trusted older friend who has seen this D situation many times and usual has pretty good insight.

He said to play real cool around the house. Play into her hand (fog) by giving the impression that I'm "on her side" with all this amicable divorce thing. Of course, nothing would be signed until reviewed by MY attorney (which she doesn't need to know I have....).

She's talking about going directly to court with papers printed off the internet
rotflmao
after working on them together to come to a reasonable agreement that benefits the kids. [Note: this is exactly how OM#2 did it - presumably due to lack of money]

Anyway, he said 'swallow your pride for now and act nicey nicey to lure her into thinking you're looking out for her best interest.' Who knows, she might even be persuaded to go find a nice little apartment for herself and leave me with primary custody.

Has anyone had any luck using the ww fog against their opponent??

opt
Posted By: black_raven Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/21/10 09:30 PM
I don't like it. Plus you can plan on playing it cool but you can get swept up in the emotions and then that goes out the window. Too much potential to backfire IMO.
Posted By: indarkness Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/21/10 09:46 PM
opt:

I'm going through a very amicable D from my WW right now, so yes, it is possible. HOWEVER, I was willing to compromise and that's what made it amicable. And we are using a mediator, which helped a bit.

Try your very best to avoid the lawyer route. If you go that route you will end up with three things:
- No money
- An extremely angry and bitter xWW
- Kids who will be scarred from the experience

If you can work it out between you two, do it. Keep in mind that you and your WW are likely going to be attached to the hip for the next 10 years until DD leaves the nest. That's a long time and a lot of decisions that will need to be made for the sake of the kids.

Figure out what your demands are. What are the deal breakers? What can you live without? What are you willing to give up? This is the time to throw emotion out the window and look at it from a strategic viewpoint - not that you are going to get everything, but how can you minimize the pain of the process.

For me, the overriding factor in every decision was minimizing the harm to my children. I imagine that will be yours as well.

Good luck.
Posted By: Arpeggi Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/21/10 11:10 PM
Adding my vote to the "not a good idea" re: your friend's divorce idea. It sounds like it will backfire.

I also was able to go through a mediator with my XWW. It was definitely the way to go.

I was able to use my diplomatic skills and some inner strength to get what I wanted while making it smooth for both parties.

My XW also had the "divorce fantasy" - I think it's typical for WWs. Let her harbor her fantasy - YOU know the truth and wouldn't be able to argue against her anyway. Let the story play out.

Remember that living well is the best revenge. Her life will self-destruct until she hits bottom. My XW has lost almost all of her friendships, and even the support of her (enabling) grandmother. I have done NOTHING to exacerbate this - in fact I go out of my way to not bring her up around any mutual friends, or make them feel like they have to take sides in any way. This has all happened because of HER. (BTW my college-educated, professional XW is now pregnant with a BF who has a minimum-wage job and has two other children from two other women! WOW!)

Do not succumb to the desire to "screw her over". You will come out the winner eventually if you just focus on doing the right thing.

Good luck with the D.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/22/10 12:17 AM
Opt,

For the love of GOD, please stop listening to this woman.....

There is no such thing as an "amicable" divorce. It's a misnomer.

Originally Posted by indarkeness
Try your very best to avoid the lawyer route. If you go that route you will end up with three things:
-No money
-An extremely angry and bitter xWW
-Kids who will be scarred from the experience

This is very BAD advice. Because...

1. you are going to wind up with no money anyways......divorce is expensive no matter which way you slice it
2. who the he77 cares??....
3. the kids will be scarred no MATTER WHAT.....it is fool-hearty to think otherwise.

By doing all the indarkness has said, you will sacrifice all of the above AND your own self-respect.

Now, I am not saying that you need to "screw over" your wife. What I am saying is that you need a lawyer who will protect YOU and your best interests, and those of your kids.

If you roll over and do things "her" way, she will roll over you in mediation......

You need to go to Plan B. Hire that lawyer (BEG, BORROW, STEAL the rest of the money if needed.....I would rather swallow my pride to ask for help from those that love me than to swallow it for a WW...or WH, in my case....Pack up her belongings, write that Plan B letter, put it all on the porch and change the locks. She's got $10,000, she isn't broke or destitute.

Arrange for an intermidery....your sister perhaps...

Hire that lawyer immediately, file, seeking full custody......and STAY dark....

not2fun
Posted By: Lady_Clueless Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/22/10 03:07 AM
YES, you need a lawyer!

And make sure you get half of that $10,000 back in any settlement!
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/22/10 03:31 AM
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You need to go to Plan B. Hire that lawyer (BEG, BORROW, STEAL the rest of the money if needed.....I would rather swallow my pride to ask for help from those that love me than to swallow it for a WW...or WH, in my case....Pack up her belongings, write that Plan B letter, put it all on the porch and change the locks. She's got $10,000, she isn't broke or destitute.

Arrange for an intermidery....your sister perhaps...

It just doesn't seem legal to kick my wife out of her house. I know other people have done it - I read all the threads here. It just seems like most other WS's are, to some extent, willing to go.

I'm going to hire the lawyer, regardless. I was just trying to think of a way to use her current state of euphoria to my advantage.

For the record, I am really not trying to rush anything here. Not that I want it to drag out, but I really, really, really feel it's crucially important to gather as much information about the upcoming process as possible before I sign ANYTHING.

N2F. Tell me again what the advantage of booting my ww is? Is it just so I don't have to be reminded of the pain she put me through? Retain my self-respect? The plan B's I've read about are aimed at getting the wayward to turn around (Scot, John&Sue in SAA, etc.).

This is all happening very fast and gosh, I'm just getting my head around the idea of being in a house without my kids there under my protection for 4 nights/week (if I'm lucky).

opt
Posted By: Scotland Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/22/10 03:54 AM
I am only a little over a month into Plan B. I would like to tell you some great things about it, but all I can really say is that it is really a lot less stressful. I am not in the same sitch as you, as I have my kids with me every night. My WH only sees the kids 6 days a month for 9.5 hours a day(only while I am at work on the weekends).

Plan B(as far as I understand it so far) is for ME. I am focusing on myself and making myself feel better and for the most part I am. I ABSOLUTELY miss my WH terribly. I have removed myself from the emotional abuse the affair was causing me. I still react to things that happen(like his forgetting what day our son's bday is) but it isn't daily like it was before Plan B.

Before Plan B, my days and nights were spent snooping, Planning and worrying. Now my days and nights are spent adjusting to my new life and Planning for a better me. Don't get me wrong, I think of my WH OFTEN. I dream of him every night and that is hard. I am actually able to sleep, eat and even LAUGH. The pre-A me is returning slowly only I seem better. I am focusing on me and it feels good.

The night before I went in to Plan B I was a wreck. I didn't want to do it. I thought about all of the good things I would be losing. I forgot about all of the bad things I would be losing too. I know that you are in a Plan B/D, which is a different place than where I am right now, but I thought that maybe you could see the advantages of going into Plan B. I hope I helped a bit laugh
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/22/10 04:16 AM
So, just as a little update. And maybe to get some feedback.

First, I ignored 4 calls. Then I finally called back around 3 and acted civil. When I got home I went directly to DS13's room to play xbox with him. I didn't eat the meal ww offered me. I'm not sure if it's that I can't eat her food, or that I can't take her offerings. We had to arrange some rides to kids activities and I was very civil with the logistics; then went to play pool at 7pm. I hated being away from my kids tonight, knowing that in a short while it won't even be an option for a certain percentage of the time.

WW wanted to talk about the mediation route tonight. Just a few things she found out. I'm SO confused about the process. I have a master's degree, but this process seems completely unfathomable to me; I guess it's just a mental block. I guess it's why I have to hire a lawyer. April 1 2009 divorce seemed like the last thing in the world I would ever have to think about.

Anyway, we got to talking about mediation and some options. She said she wanted to do it in such a way as to make me as "minimally mad" as possible. FOG or GUILT???? Of course I don't believe a word she says since she's a lying wayward, but she did say those words and I don't think she's devious enough to say it without at least thinking she means it.
She actually said she would leave the decision to me about buying out her half of the equity in the home. (realty people will have an estimate on the value early next week).

I think I can afford the house and I'd really be happy to be able to stay here with the kids, even if they're only here half the time. I love this house. It would also be a moral victory in many ways.

Anyway, she started crying when talking about custody options. I asked why she was crying and she said because DS13 said "I'll be okay as long as there's someone here when I get home." Well, evidently her Daddy gave her some bad news today - he isn't planning on financing her through this. His quote "well, I guess you're going to have to take the college degree and go get yourself a job."
Pretty sick, because I really think deep down she was actually crying because she might have to go work FT for the first time in 20 years.
I sat there and watched her cry. Indifferent to it. I felt like saying something. "you can choose your actions but not the consequences" "you made your bed..."
But then I thought 'what's the point?' I'm going to try to make this a teachable moment?!
I couldn't care less what she learns and what she doesn't.
The list of conditions she would have to meet for me to consider taking her back right now is so long that having sympathy or looking for a break in the fog would be completely pointless.

I'm still just not sure how I'm supposed to act around her. I separated her clothes from the laundry and washed everything else. I don't say "good morning," "good night," or goodbye," or "hello". Should I be? I don't want to be mean, I just have no recognizable feelings for her when I see her. I feel like saying anything to her would give the impression that I have anything but disgust for her. When I'm not with her I do have disdain. Sometimes I even picture doing something harmful to her, but I don't think I could ever actually do anything. Is that normal?

In the end, will any particular behavior make a difference? The lawyer I consulted with is a good one. Highly recommended from a credible source.

All this really sucks. I just keep telling my kids I'm doing everything I can to make sure they're safe and happy as possible. I tell them they'll always get the truth from me no matter what. I try not to say anything untoward about ww, but it sure is hard to think of anything good to say. I have said she's a good person at heart and I don't understand her choices lately...what else should I be saying?

thanks for any input, everyone.

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/22/10 04:37 AM
Scot! I'm totally honored that you posted in my thread. You are a Rock Star!

I already knew everything in your post because I follow your thread pretty closely, lol. But it is awesome to have you take the time and effort to help me.

I can identify with the ease of not having to snoop. I would always got really nervous, even if nobody was in the house. Going through email, I was just sure she was going to like "appear" in front of me. very stressful. Plus it's just so time consuming. That's all behind me now, I don't really care what she's doing or not doing. I know enough to know she was lying about a relationship with a "friend" next door. I know she was spending time with him at least 4 days a week in his home. I know that when I asked her multiple times with the utmost respect (NOT demands) to at least limit her interactions with him, she got extremely defensive. Ultimately stating "if you don't like me being friends with POM#2, then you might as well divorce me" [that sounds like more than a friend to me].
There is nobody in my life that I wouldn't walk away from in a heartbeat for my family if my wife wasn't comfortable with my relationship with that person.
Sometimes I wonder if the time she spends with him (without having proof of what they're doing in there) is enough to divorce her over. But then I think of what kind of a person would prioritize a "friendship" over her husband and family? I can't continue to be married to someone like that - I can't let my kids grow up thinking that's normal. She told my sister "I won't let him tell me who my friends are." (which I never did - only said 'your friendship with POM#2 makes me uncomfortable,' then I found out the extent of it was more than she had been reporting before)

Well, anyway, thanks Scot for your input. I check in with you everyday to see if your WH has pulled his head out of the clouds yet. The best decision he ever made in his life was marrying you. I hope he's smart enough to recognize how lucky he is that he might get a second chance.
opt
Posted By: Scotland Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/22/10 04:59 AM
Well, I am going to have to agree with you on the fact that there is no one that I would walk away from if my WH told me that my friendship with them made him uncomfortable. Over the past 2 years, that is how I felt when he was developing his A with POSOW. They started out as co-workers and then "friends". I don't know EXACTLY when they changed to an affair, but that doesn't seem to matter to me at this point. I did a lot of the wrong things before I found MB but one thing I knew was that their "friendship" was not right. It was a major LB and caused me to LB him very much as well.

I am not proud of the things that I did and said over those past 2 years but I am definitely proud of the things I have done since coming to MB.

As far as feeling like your WW was going to pop out of nowhere, I still have those feelings and WH hasn't even been in this house in 34 days(wow I actually had to figure that out cuz I forgot how many days it was hahahahaha).

So, I wanted to make a comment about what your WW was crying about and talking about. The same kinds of things were being thrown out by my WH before I found MB. He would start to cry about not wanting to lose the children. He would say, "Please don't take my boys away from me. I love my boys." and I would say, "I am not taking the boys anywhere." I didn't know what to do and I would just hold him and try to comfort him. That was the night he chose to stop saying that he loved me because he didn't mean it anymore.(that was a crushing blow)

There were also times when my WH would say, "I don't know if you will be strong enough to do this." I would respond with, "I am." There was even one time when we were talking and I said, "When you leave me." and he started to cry and say, "Don't say it like that." and I said, "Why not, it's what you are doing."

I now know that it was a lot of fog babble.

I am not going to talk you into or out of anything, I just know that you were weighing the choice of Plan B while in Plan D and I just wanted to add a little insight in to that.

I really don't feel like a rock star and maybe I should check my thread more often to see if my WH has come off of his A cloud too(hehehehehehe).

My thoughts are with you.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/22/10 12:42 PM
Opt,

How you holding up??? Are you remembering to eat?? Hows the sleeping going??...Are you still listening to the foghorn????..... grin

[quote=opt]It just doesn't seem legal to kick my wife out of her house. I know other people have done it - I read all the threads here. It just seems like most other WS's are, to some extent, willing to go.[/opt]

Its not "illegal" either.....By law you can't force her out. BUT if you change the locks the only way she would get back in is if she called the police. They can't arrest you for it, they can only tell you that its her house too and you have to let her in. MOST WS are stupid enough and confused enough ("hey WTF just happened here"...is what is going through their minds) that they DO in fact leave. It's more of a matter of the BS having the guts to do it...(Like Scotty did....... hurray...). It's not until they get a lawyer involved that they realize they DIDN'T have to go......

[quote=opt]I'm going to hire the lawyer, regardless. I was just trying to think of a way to use her current state of euphoria to my advantage.[/opt]

It would be nice if ya could, but since WS aren't thinking with a full deck, better to get a professional to help you through this. Besides, this is traumatic enough for YOU, that you need someone to help YOU look out for your own best interests. And with WW's whole "I'll-help-him-out-by-getting-a-part-time-job" crappola, she is NOT going to play nice. Unless, of course, you just lie down and give her everything....but even then that's usually not enough.

[quote=opt]N2f Tell me again what the advantage of booting my ww is? Is it just so I don't have to be reminded of the pain she put me through? Retain my self-respect? The plan B's I've read about are aimed at getting the wayward to turn around (Scot, John&Sue in SAA, etc.).[/opt]

You have misunderstood the Plan B. Read up on it. The point of Plan B is for YOU. To get you out of the drama/muck/crap/sewage that WW has brought upon you. It is USUALLY used to protect your LB from her making any WD's, but it can also be used just to get out of her way. She is toxic-poison right now. And the last thing you need at this moment is any more of her crap.....

not2fun
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/22/10 01:29 PM
I'm not going to speak to everything you wrote but I can help with some of your questions and even a bit of translation of your WW.
Originally Posted by optimism
WW wanted to talk about the mediation route tonight. Just a few things she found out. I'm SO confused about the process. I have a master's degree, but this process seems completely unfathomable to me; I guess it's just a mental block. I guess it's why I have to hire a lawyer.
Sadly, you will come to know this process better than you can imagine. Keep in mind, she doesn't know it either.

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Anyway, we got to talking about mediation and some options. She said she wanted to do it in such a way as to make me as "minimally mad" as possible. FOG or GUILT???? Of course I don't believe a word she says since she's a lying wayward, but she did say those words and I don't think she's devious enough to say it without at least thinking she means it.
Both FOG and GUILT actually. The guilt will, however, pass. It's important not to drag this out too long. I can't remember if I've written about this to you or not but my WXH was in an extreme hurry to get out of the M. He badgered, yelled, screamed and threatened me to get the separation agreement written (we have a do-it-yourself system up here). Note- he didn't make one attempt to write it himself. So naturally, I rounded everything up in my favour. He signed, but 3 days later started b*+ching about it. Incidentally, some of this found its way into small claims court and I won - because he signed the bloody thing back in the beginning. If I'd stalled even 3 more days, I would have missed the opportunity.

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Anyway, she started crying when talking about custody options. I asked why she was crying and she said because DS13 said "I'll be okay as long as there's someone here when I get home." Well, evidently her Daddy gave her some bad news today - he isn't planning on financing her through this. His quote "well, I guess you're going to have to take the college degree and go get yourself a job."
Pretty sick, because I really think deep down she was actually crying because she might have to go work FT for the first time in 20 years.
I sat there and watched her cry. Indifferent to it. I felt like saying something. "you can choose your actions but not the consequences" "you made your bed..."
But then I thought 'what's the point?' I'm going to try to make this a teachable moment?!
There really is no point in educating a wayward. They cant/won't learn and it just makes them angrier. That said, allow the consequences of her affair to rest on her shoulders. Don't lift a finger to help her with them.

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In the end, will any particular behavior make a difference?
I would try very hard not to do anything that can be interpreted as mean, spiteful or potentially damaging. It's one thing to separate her laundry so she has to do it herself. But don't do anything that could be remotely construed as abuse of any form (emotional or mental as well).

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All this really sucks. I just keep telling my kids I'm doing everything I can to make sure they're safe and happy as possible. I tell them they'll always get the truth from me no matter what. I try not to say anything untoward about ww, but it sure is hard to think of anything good to say. I have said she's a good person at heart and I don't understand her choices lately...what else should I be saying?
It's very hard to think of what TO say. Much easier to know what NOT to say. Keep telling your kids the truth. Prepare them as much as possible for each stage of this - when WW leaves the home etc. Make sure they know you love them.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/22/10 05:11 PM
Opt,

Would you negotiate with a falling down drunk???

Would you negotiate with a terriorist??

If the answer is yes, then by all means keep up what you are doing ( and pray hourly that you live to tell about it).....

If the answer is no, the quit trying. You are spinning your wheels.....

"the only thing needed for evil to prevail is for a good man to do nothing"....Edmund Burke

not2fun
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/22/10 10:58 PM
Quote
How you holding up??? Are you remembering to eat?? Hows the sleeping going??...Are you still listening to the foghorn????.....

lol, good, Not2.
I played pool with my buds last night (and lost :)) and tonight taking the kids skating and to the mall. Did some more banking stuff today to get organized (applied for a credit card...), and found out more about D/Mediation. Talked to my DS13's guidance counsellor. Keeping busy and trying to stay focused.

sleeping okay and trying to eat healthy.

thanks for asking - gotta run. I'll catch up on here later.

Opt
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/23/10 05:20 PM
Opt,

The BIGGEST problem I see in you sitch right now is that you are operating without a PLAN. The best thing about MB and what Dr. H is very big on is a PLANS.

You were in Plan A, now deciding whether or not you want to go to Plan D, and during this you are in a state of confusion.

And in this place of confusion you are ENABLING you wife's bad behavior. Which is WHY you should be in Plan B NOW.

You don't have to file for a divorce to be in Plan B. You don't even have to decide to divorce while in Plan B. You can educate yourself all about divorces/mediation DURING the Plan B.

You have fulfilled Plan A. Move to Plan B.

As long as you "talk" to her, she is filling your head with her yuckiness. It is disheartening to watch. It is disheartening to see her flaunt her horrendous, disrespectful, and nasty decisions in your face. And the more she does this, the more you run the risk of Love Busting and muddying your chances in court. BS's do themselves the dishonor of staying in this state.

Plan B......

1. Write the letter....here's a link to the conditions that SexyMamaBear gave to TST in her letter. NOW, it is good to note, that her conditions were there to so TST could return to the marriage home in order for them to see IF they could repair thier marriage. There was no guarentee that the marriage would be repaired (thankful they have...). If your WW would decide to do the hard work of recovery, you could participate with the understanding that IT MAY NOT WORK. The damage could be far too great. BUT, then again, maybe not

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=158659&Number=2308548#Post2308548


These requirements are some of the highest requirements I've ever seen. The bar would be set high, high enough that IF she were to want to do them, they may give you what you need to attempt a reconcilliation.

But even if you don't want to do this, even if you are set on going to Plan D (which no one here could truly blame you if you did....), then Plan B is still the route to go. If order to protect you, your sanity, your children (from the fall-out), and even your WW, which to me is the hallmark of a good man.....

not2fun

ps....a good friend of mine, who is a paralegal, let me know that mediation is NOT good for someone who is protecting themselves. That is me.....is "suspect" that may be you. I get the sense that if you were to proceed in this route, that your own guilt (whether it is misplaced or not), would give your WW more than she deserves. She is also of the "entitled" mind, meaning she would not rest until she got everything she thinks she is "entitled" to....which in every waywards mind is EVERYTHING.....
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 01/25/10 01:56 PM
NotTooFunn,
I want you to know I am thoughtfully considering everything in the above post.

I just read this 2 day old post because I had to "get away from it" for a couple of days. I've really been focussing on my kids and myself. I have been reflecting heavily on the history of our marriage and the prospects for the future of my children and family.

I'll have a response and fill you in as I go through some processes in teh next few days. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your concern, care, and input.

Suffice it to say that at this point I (believe it or not) have the upper hand as I see it. I will NOT be taken advantage of as I have NO guilt about anything that has transpired in the past several months. I have good folks in my corner and am getting good counsel (including information from here).

sad, but resolved to make the best of a bad situation.

opt

PS - I just read the Conditions for Coming Home Letter. Amazingly identical to the list I came up with on my own. My bar is actually a little higher.
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 02/04/10 02:09 AM
Bump- where are you, opt?
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 02/04/10 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Linus
Bump- where are you, opt?

Hey Linus and Friends!
Sorry I've been "away."
It's been a real busy time meeting with lawyers and bankers and clinicians and wayward wife, and all the while trying to hold onto my job as concentration is difficult to maintain.

Short update:
3rd mediation meeting under our belt. I've been advised by my own attorney throughout the process, but ww doesn't have a lawyer and doesn't know I do.
Have switched over all my bank accounts auto deposits, auto pays, etc. -the only money ww has is what I give her or what she makes on her own.
Have been pre-approved for a mortgage loan to buy out ww's equity in the home - I'm staying there if things continue to go as planned.
Have been executing a modified "180" and am "moving on" with my life. Taking the kids out, minding my own business, and hanging with friends after work (still no drinking, just dinner and pool - no women either).

Mediation:
Custody: 50/50 joint legal and physical [schedule me 3 days, her 4, then me 4, her 3 on a biweekly rotation; I always get Friday which I wanted due to ww's questionable moral code and my belief that Fri night is dangerous for teenagers- I want them under my watch that night]
Child support: mutually arrived at a figure of 250/wk (court ordered number was 392).
Assets split 50/50 from IRA's to personal affects in the home - no real issues (she got my 11 year old truck, but I have more in my retirement acct's so it washed). [the 10k was offset by my low offer on the equity and a couple of other things]
WW found a condo and her offer was accepted - pre-approved for loan; it's a nice 3 BR in the middle of town so my kids will always be close by.

I have lots of emotions and really hate the thought that I'm actually going along with ww's devious plan which has been essentially in place for a year to the best of my reconning. I hate that I'm not strong enough to fight more and possibly "save" the M. I hate that I don't feel strongly enough that the M is worth saving (although I like that it took me traveling to hell and back to realize it). I really hate that a dishonest unrepentant adulterer is raising my kids alone 50% of the time and there's practically a court order saying you can't disparage your former wife to the kids (I'll have to be stealthy about educating them regarding the damage adultery does to families - I've already started with my son using myself as an example; also showing him it's okay to admit when you've made a terrible mistake). I HATE that I'm too afraid of ww and her Daddy's money to make any major moves like booting her out in a plan B execution - if I pi$$ her off before the judge signs our agreement, she could easily change her mind about the 250 and go for the 392 which would bankrupt me; not to mention, so far FIL is staying out of the process and I want to keep it that way - he could (and would) bury me for sport.

Anticipate 8 weeks for a court date. Then it's a new life for better or worser.
opt
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 02/22/10 06:00 AM
Wow Opt, a lot has changed since I left. Unfortunately I think I am following a similar path.

I applaud your efforts to protect your children and yourself. I'm sorry your Plan A efforts didn't have better results. Guess that's why they say only 15% of Plan A alone works.

Did you ever go full Plan B with a letter and everything?
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 02/22/10 12:14 PM
Somehow, I have the feeling that both Opt and SoL will be better off without their WWs. I know that's awful to say, but I really do believe it.

Good luck and God Bless to both of you guys.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 02/25/10 01:31 AM
Thanks Linus.
I haven't even checked my own thread in a few days. I guess that says something.

I just caught up on Limbo. I'm so bummed.

Anyway, I think ultimately you're right about me Linus; it's kinda awful to admit it. smile
I'm moving on and am quite positive things are going to be better for me in the long run. Actually I think that part will be fairly straightforward. Making sure things are better for my kids is the challenge I wish I didn't have to face; but since I do, it's one I plan to meet with full attention and effort (and of course have already started).

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 03/06/10 12:28 PM
Last night I closed on a re-finance of my house. I now am sole owner/deed holder. I 'bought' ww's equity. Everything going as planned (although a little slower due to a couple of legal hurdles).

We've remained totally civil. It's almost like knowing we aren't really married anymore makes it easier to be friends (I guess that is a testament to how f'd up our marriage really was...). Of course, I'm still extremely wary and don't trust her words but at some point it seems as though she became acutely aware of how much she hurt me and is now trying to give me some dignity, (e.g. by not spending any time with OM#2, and basically being around and cooperating with all the proceedings.)

I have 3 good reasons not to rock the boat right now. One is 13 and one is 8. The third is to not provoke her into back-peddling on the Separation agreement which was filed with the state on Feb 22. It states her desire to only accept $250/wk instead of the state mandated $392. My lawyer feels the court might even reject this agreement depending on which judge we get. Anything over $250 and I probably have to sell the house; a main reason I want to keep it is for the kids and their sense of stability (so really I guess I only have 2 reasons to not rock the boat). Budgets are going to be razor thin in about 6 weeks.

WW will close on her condo end of the month, move out shortly thereafter. We might wind up with a court date of, say April 15 -- our anniversary. Wouldn't that be a cruel hoax?

I woke up with the sense of failure. That in a couple short months my kids won't know the feeling of waking up in a house with two of their own parents in it. This is NOT what I wanted for my kids.


Posted By: Scotland Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 03/06/10 02:04 PM
This is NOT what any of us Bs's wanted. I am sorry for you and for your boys.

Can I ask you to do one thing though? It bugs me in your sig line that it says, "Status: Failure, Plan D" Could you change that to "Status: TRIED, Plan D"? I don't think you FAILED at all. You only FAIL when you FAIL TO TRY. You TRIED and it didn't work. Speaking of work, I gotta go. Take care.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 03/06/10 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
This is NOT what any of us Bs's wanted. I am sorry for you and for your boys.

Can I ask you to do one thing though? It bugs me in your sig line that it says, "Status: Failure, Plan D" Could you change that to "Status: TRIED, Plan D"? I don't think you FAILED at all. You only FAIL when you FAIL TO TRY. You TRIED and it didn't work. Speaking of work, I gotta go. Take care.

Thanks Scotland. I needed that encouragement.
Something I've been struggling with since the "transition": In many ways I feel like I've failed the whole MB community. You, ML, NTF, Limb, Linus, and so many others who followed my thread and encouraged me along the way; by me not having the strength to go to Plan B I feel like I let people down. I just hope everyone understands I really do believe in the MB principles; they're what have helped me remain sane and retain order through a chaos. They've helped me realize my M was never really based on the kind of philosophy I wanted and trying to rebuild would be like putting a new house on the beach (I suppose it could be done but I have zero faith ww or I could really dedicate the type of colossal energy & effort it would take).

I'll update my sig line. You're right.

~opt
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 03/06/10 11:45 PM
Opt- like I have been recently told, you did not let anyone down. Your WW did. You have done an excellent job in following these principles. You are now doing an excellent job of moving forward for your kids and yourself.

Nobody knows what tomorrow will bring. All we can do is try to make the best decision possible with the situation we are currently in. One of the best things about this MB program is the way it alleviates the second guessing if it doesn't work. You KNOW you have done all you can and can look your kids in the eyes. You KNOW where the blame truly lies.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 03/06/10 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by optimism
In many ways I feel like I've failed the whole MB community. You, ML, NTF, Limb, Linus, and so many others who followed my thread and encouraged me along the way; by me not having the strength to go to Plan B I feel like I let people down.

((((Opt)))),

While I can't speak for the entire community, you CERTAINLY haven't let me down. Please do not worry about that during your time of turmoil. Look, this was NOT your WW's first affair. You have an OC whom you have welcome and raised as if he were your own. THAT takes a lot of courage and strength, something I'm not sure I would have the strength to do. So you have done this for YEARS and she goes out and has another affair???...And you feel guilty for letting us down???...

YOu TRIED again, to save your marriage. You came here and asked for help. Many couldn't even UNDERSTAND why you would want to travel this road again. BUT for some of us, you wanting to try is all we needed to hear to help you with what we know. And you DID it. And did it exceedingly well.

The fact that you found out about OM #2 and decided to walk away is NOT the definition of failure. In Mel's famous words, sometimes the definition of success IS divorce.

My only hope for you is that YOU learned all you needed about love, marriage, and how to be the best person that you can be. I hope you CONTINUE in your learning as you heal through the new trauma of divorce. My only advice at this point is that you WAIT to begin a new relationship with any woman. You are not ready yet. Heal from this mess, learn all you can, mourn your loss and pain, and THEN after much time, should you consider trying out the world of dating.......

You aren't the first one to come here wanting to save their marriage and ended up divorced. Take a look at Chailovers, SilentLucidity, Chrisner, DancingMachine, and Believer.......I do not know of one VET on here that considers them failures. Their stories on person healing are some of the best stories around here. I pray that you will travel that same path.....oh, and FWIW, 4 of those people helped ME in my journey when H was in his affair. So just because you didn't save your marriage doesn't mean you can't help others around here........ wink

And as far an not going into Plan B, well, that's okay too. I think you KNEW on the last Dday, that you were done. I could sense it in your posts. I still think that that is the way to go even while proceeding with Plan D, but hey, that's me.

Oh, and one more thing, even with ALL I know about MB, even with all I KNOW on how to make a marriage work, even with all I KNOW on how to break up an affair (and being successful at it...), IF my H were to EVER have another affair of ANY KIND, there will be NO Plan A, NO Plan B, it will be straight to Plan D......So after all you have done, I do not blame you one bit for going forward with this.......

hug hugOpt and kiddo's hug hug

This is NOT your failure. This is on WW. Let her carry that burden......

not2fun
Posted By: ToBeContinued Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 03/07/10 12:12 AM
Well done, N2F. Couldn't have said it any better. Couldn't agree more.......

Plan D does NOT mean failure. It also does not mean the end of growth, wisdom and determination. You may not realize it, Opt, but you have excelled greatly in all three areas. Don't lose sight of that fact. I'm sure it will pay significant dividends in the future.

TB
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 03/07/10 01:05 AM
Reading Dr. Harley's "When To Call It Quits" newsletter is often an inspiration in these types of situations.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 03/07/10 07:40 AM
Well, you guys are awesome! Thanks so much.

Quote
My only hope for you is that YOU learned all you needed about love, marriage, and how to be the best person that you can be. I hope you CONTINUE in your learning as you heal through the new trauma of divorce.

Dontchu worry about this. This whole thing has set in front of me a path of rediscovery. I wasn't a bad dude before but I had plenty of short-comings; many of which were simply eradicated with the trauma through tremendous introspection. I don't want to be that person again and so far the changes I've made have actually made my life entirely more enjoyable. Not the least of which is the reconnection with my faith in God.

I have every intention of learning as much as I can about MB principles. I want to have a healthy marriage someday and I really believe this is a good place to start. --But right now I focus on getting through the D while subjecting the kids to as little pain as possible.

Me and ww went to BJ's together, dropping D8 at friends on the way. She was also with us at the closing the other night. Seeing us together and cooperating is very healthy for her and mitigates the trauma. It'll break my heart when we finally separate; that will be hard for both kids. But ww isn't gouging me in the D (so far at least, I'm very mindful), and she has pretty much cut off contact with PotentialOM#2. OM#1 is history as far as I can tell. I feel like she's at least trying to respect my dignity- makes it easier to be civil for the kids and my own well being.


I can't thank you all enough for the encouragement and acceptance. Especially the acceptance. My wife essentially stopped accepting me for who I was. She also refused to entertain the idea of accepting me after making whatever changes I could for her, which I would have been happy to do. Instead she is only accepting the concept of not being married to me anymore. Knowing I'm accepted here (and in other places in my life) is extremely important.

Optimism
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 03/07/10 07:48 AM
Originally Posted by OurHouse
Reading Dr. Harley's "When To Call It Quits" newsletter is often an inspiration in these types of situations.

You know, I've been searching the site for this a few times in the last weeks. It doesn't pop up with any searches I can come up with although I have seen it (a long time ago).

I hate to be a pain, but if anyone could link it I would much appreciate that.

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 03/07/10 08:11 AM
Quote
My only advice at this point is that you WAIT to begin a new relationship with any woman. You are not ready yet. Heal from this mess, learn all you can, mourn your loss and pain, and THEN after much time, should you consider trying out the world of dating.......

Definitely waiting to begin a new relationship. Definitely waiting. Totally see that I'm not ready, and won't be for some time. In fact I have several pretty substantial projects planned to start the day her stuff is out of here. Projects to keep me busy and physically active and mentally occupied. [place to start: bedroom, lol]

I also don't really see how one could develop much of a relationship with only 3 and a half days/week at their disposal. When the kids are with me, they will be my 100% focus. It will be a LONG, LONG time before I bring another woman into that situation, and she'll be pretty special before she gets consideration.

However, I like the company of a woman, what can I say? I wouldn't do anything before the court date. But are you saying dinner, lunch, a movie, concert, etc is out of the question? I'll respect that if you do, but keep in mind I haven't been with a woman who likes me in a year. That's going to be hard to walk away from if the opportunity arises and I suspect it will given some of the comments people have made.

Not something I've spent a lot of time thinking about, but I think it's worth discussing now so I'm prepared for it. Maybe I should stick with group situations for a while - I was thinking of taking a class in something this summer.

[funny sidenote: I NEVER (even when I was having my A 8 yrs ago) used to dream about any woman but my wife. If I did things would fall apart in the dream - it was like I was cheating and couldn't do it; even subconsciously. That changed about a month ago. Weird]


Quote
You aren't the first one to come here wanting to save their marriage and ended up divorced. Take a look at Chailovers, SilentLucidity, Chrisner, DancingMachine, and Believer.......I do not know of one VET on here that considers them failures. Their stories on person healing are some of the best stories around here. I pray that you will travel that same path.....oh, and FWIW, 4 of those people helped ME in my journey when H was in his affair. So just because you didn't save your marriage doesn't mean you can't help others around here........

That's encouraging, thanks N2F. I'll check out these stories when I can. And if I can help folks in the future, you know I will. I believe in giving back. I also believe in the power of teaching as a path to learning.

~Opt
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 03/07/10 04:44 PM
not2fun spoke for a lot of us with his post. You let no one down, my friend. In fact, you were - and still are - a tremendous help to me in dealing with my own situation. Don't ever forget that, my friend, because I won't.

You are heading for a better life for you and your boys. I look forward to staying in touch through these boards for a long time.

Linus
Posted By: gnirlos Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 03/07/10 06:31 PM
When to Call it Quits

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 03/07/10 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by Linus
not2fun spoke for a lot of us with his post.

skeptical....."his"

uhmmmmm, Linus dear, that would be HER...... flirt

some faux pas cannot go unignored........

Ms. Not2fun

Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 03/08/10 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by not2fun
Originally Posted by Linus
not2fun spoke for a lot of us with his post.

skeptical....."his"

uhmmmmm, Linus dear, that would be HER...... flirt

some faux pas cannot go unignored........

Ms. Not2fun

2Funny!

Thanks g for the links.

~o~
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - GOING TO PLAN D - 03/08/10 01:10 AM
Originally Posted by not2fun
Originally Posted by Linus
not2fun spoke for a lot of us with his post.

skeptical....."his"

uhmmmmm, Linus dear, that would be HER...... flirt

some faux pas cannot go unignored........

Ms. Not2fun
blush I just KNEW I should of had that second cup of coffee before posting anything . . . .

My deepest apologies, Ms. Not2fun - what a bozo, huh???
smile

Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/08/10 05:54 AM
No worries Linus, lol. And thanks for all your input. It has meant a lot. I can promise I'll be around here for a good time to come.

Wow, those are really good articles. Change a few things around in the first (and third) and you definitely have our situation. Unfortunately I can see myself in the 'not meeting wife's emotional needs' category.

Of course SA has always been a huge issue in this R with what I suspect might be a legitimate sexual dysfunction for ww. We had tried to work on that several times, but I think it's too deeply rooted in a terrible incident that happened to her a long time ago and was never properly addressed. I guess I grew to resent that she never pursued that more clinically even with my encouragement; sad thing is it is continuing to haunt her and will forever - not to mention how it's affecting 2 innocent children.

I guess I've tried to be patient, but never really had the tools until her 2nd affair landed me here; but too little too late. The articles made me wonder if I should have gone with legal separation instead of directly to divorce.


But you know what? She's has a very very bad track record of availing herself to opportunities to get help, or embrace the help she gets. She's considers MB a 'cult' almost out of hand. We even filled out all of '5 Steps' book, and she has completely ignored the concepts. She read HNHN's for Parents and got NOTHING from it. We've talked to our local priest and he's reached out to her; she never called him back. She refused to pursue more counseling with Steve (due to "expense!" So far, D has cost thousands and we're just getting started). MC was Divorce Counseling in her eyes; she used it as a ploy to make me see the light. The woman will spend 40 hours researching the best price for an end table, but not read one book or on-line article about how to improve a marriage.

I'm definitely not perfect. I have many flaws and have not been the ideal husband. But I think I've legitimately and consistently demonstrated a willingness to learn, grow, change, improve, develop, educate myself; all by any means necessary. I can not say the same for ww.

Therefore, realistically, Legal Separation would be a lesson in futility and simply push the whole timeline back up to 2 years. I can't see that helping my children one bit - too much ambiguity.

Just thinking out loud here. Thanks for everyone's thoughtfulness. What a great way to 'journal' and know you can get helpful feedback from folks with similar experience and educated opinions.

o
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/08/10 12:28 PM
Just saying good morning opt. Hope you and the kids had a good weekend.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/08/10 01:02 PM
Opt-you sound like you have your head wrapped around this pretty well. You sound better than before and that is awesome. You are definitely still growing and learning. Take care of those kids and of yourself. Who knows what will happen in the future? The one thing you will know, is that YOU will be better because of it.
Thanks Scot for the encouragement. I'm doing my best. Had a barbeque with my friend yesterday and was offered a beer several times. Finally I just said, "I quit that in November" - DS 13 right next to me who stepped up and reiterated "My Dad doesn't drink anymore." I know my kids are noticing the positive changes I've been making. That's a really good feeling.

One thing that has made it a little smoother is that ww is allowing me to talk to her. She desperately wants peace through this whole thing and envisions us as big "friends" after it's all settled. I've been very honest with her that I don't trust someone who treated me like she did, with the lies ad deceipt. I told her it's going to be tough to be "friends" with someone who continues to deny that they did anything wrong and keeps trying to dress up the pig of adultery by calling it all different names and generally downplaying it as a non-factor in our current situation.

I will probably never really get the satisfaction I'm looking for, but I do feel better about myself after I stand up for my feelings let her know how I feel.

thanks again

O
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/08/10 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by Linus
Just saying good morning opt. Hope you and the kids had a good weekend.
Good morning to you Linus! Life's a journey, right?
Great weekend - highlights: playing hoops with DS13 on Saturday (still sore), and cleaning car with D8 on Sunday, church with both on Sunday am. They are total angels I don't know what I would do without them.

Thanks for checking in. Do you have a regular thread - it seems like you comment in a lot of places but you're hard to pin down; I hope your R is going well.


Opt
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/08/10 05:37 PM
I have a few threads (I know, not good) and the latest is on the Recovery forum Linus Thread. I'm not posting my status much, just trying to keep up with others who befriended and helped me (like yourself) through the darkest parts of my saga, and to post (hopefully) helpful words here and there. I'm not anywhere near experienced enough to try to provide real help, but I try to offer words of encouragement to others who have run into issues like mine. I sure am learning a lot, though. Maybe someday I'll really be able to help someone like the vets here. smile
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/10/10 04:07 AM
I should probably transfer over to the D board, but for now I have a little dilemma.

I told my ww on Sunday that I didn�t trust her and didn�t believe most of what she told me. Just a fact, given the level of betrayal, lies, deceit, secrecy she engaged in over the past many months.

Now, she�s still holding on to what I�ve come to understand is a common wayward fantasy of divorce: the eternal friendship with BS. I realize the importance to the kids of remaining civil, but I doubt there�s going to be much friendship there.

Anyway, I�m trying to play along (at least until the court date, at which point I�ll honestly reassess my emotional position). So, I told her I couldn�t be friends with someone I didn�t trust; and meanwhile she�s insisting she never had sex with OM#1. So I told her the only way I�d ever believe she didn�t have sex with OM#1 was if she took a polygraph. She just kinda shook her head.

My dilemma is should I really pursue this? I would really like to know for sure. But I�m not sure what it would accomplish. Part of it would be the joy of watching her squirm about the prospects of it, and the further discussion of it. Part of me wants to put her through some of the humiliation she put me through with the EA (I know it�s wrong, just being honest). And I also wonder if I could actually be �friends� with her even after I found out the �truth� (regardless of the outcome).

I also feel that if she was serious about wanting me to be �friends� after the divorce, she would be serious about trying to regain my trust (something she should have done if she had any respect for me in the first place). And if she was serious about regaining my trust, then she would run, not walk, to the lie-detector man.

I do feel lucky she lets me talk to her. I let a few things fly the other night. It also came out that OM#1 continues to try to contact her. To me, that�s broken NC, not that it matters much. She says she tries to duck him (which I�m inclined to believe at this stage); but I told her he�s a predator and by not taking legal action with an animal like this, she might as well put a �come in anytime� sign on her life. She doesn�t get it and I�m really afraid for my daughter � this is the absolute worst part of the D; ww�s supremely poor judgement and inability to get this POS off her back.

So, suggestions about the polygraph would be appreciated, as well as any angles on waking my ww up to the fact that OM is Dangerous.

Thanks guys.

~optimism
Posted By: ToBeContinued Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/10/10 04:21 AM
Opt,

I don't really see enough of an up side. It sounds like the big "benefit" would be retribution. I think the peace of mind, and having the ability to move on knowing you stayed on high road would be more of a benefit.

You've been through a lot. Why put yourself through more drama and WW antics?

Being friends with a XW? You're gonna have higher priorities.....

Just my take.....

TB
Posted By: Scotland Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/10/10 01:20 PM
Opt- Gettting your WW to agree to a polygraph(which I HIGHLY doubt) would not be good for you at all. I know that you want to KNOW that she did or didn't have sex with OM1. Would it really make a difference at this point?

As far as being "friends" with xWW after your D, I don't know that I would call it FRIENDS. What do friends do? They hang out with eachother. They call each other. They talk to each other about their problems in life and support them. Are you going to do these things with your xWW? Do you see yourself going out for coffee while she tells you about her problems with her new bf? Even if you think you could, you shouldn't. If you plan on having a new R with someone else then you need to NOT be friends with people of the opposite sex. That's the MB way laugh
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/10/10 02:51 PM
Opt- I understand the struggle on where to draw the line between being 'civil' and being 'friends'. My WW also has the fantasy idea that we will be good friends through and after this ordeal.

I would drop the lie detector thoughts and continue to move on while still being civil to your WW. Deep down, you probably know the truth anyway.

Are you currently beyond any thoughts of recovering your M? I know you are not actively working to that end, but if WW has a sudden realization and agrees to comply w/any and all of your requirements, would you? Or have you made up your mind and no matter what, you are marching for Plan D?
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/10/10 06:34 PM
I think you're right. OM#1 is dangerous. Have you looked into legal options to make sure he stays away from your family?

As far as the poly, I'd drop it. She won't do it, and it won't change anything anyway.

I can't imagine being friends with an ex. Civil, maybe, but certainly not friends.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/11/10 04:16 AM
Well, its unanimous! Don't pursue the lie detector.
--My DS13 told me tonight that I didn't have to worry about her talking to him anymore. He has told her that if she does, he'll lose all his respect for her. That's pretty powerful.

Prior to that conversation with DS13, I expressed my concerns to ww about the potential dangerousness of this freak, and how vulnerable D8 is with us separated. I reminded her of his manipulative and obsessive behavior. For the first (or second) time, she didn't defend him or show sympathy towards him. She appears to have developed an indifferent regard for him and also stated that she basically feels really stupid for letting him manipulate her all of last summer. She claims she hasn't responded to his efforts to contact her. I retorted that's not enough and that legal authorities should be involved on the grounds of harassment. She ultimately got around to looking into how to block a number from her phone (which I believe is possible with her new service).

There were a lot of disrespectful things I could have said in response to this enlightened position, but I left it at that.

Anyway, about the polygraph. I'm still glad I made my point with her. Now, this summer when I decline her request to go to the beach with her (or whatever crazy scheme she has for us to be "friends") I can remind her that I really have no interest in being friends with someone who hurt me and my family so much and has yet to do anything I requested in the way of making amends.

Besides, I maintain that if she was really interested in repairing any aspect of our relationship, she would at least entertain ANY idea I threw out there, discuss it, look into it, consider it. I really think she's interested in maintaining a healthy relationship with me as long as it's not too inconvenient for her and doesn't require any particular effort on her part. (that's a little something she calls "following her heart" - the point of debate about me following MB. She simply doesn't want to do anything that would take introspection.)

[rambling]

Scot - thanks for the female perspective on friendship and what it means to a woman (no offense guys - love your input too!). I hadn't given the whole concept much thought but your depiction of friendship helped me see the importance of going to a Plan B type approach as soon as she moves out. Like an old favorite song by Young MC "I don't mind being a shoulder to cry on, but I need one who has a body to lie on." (lol, that never gets old).

Limbo, thanks so much for your insightful question. You can bet I'll have an answer for you. You've given me a lot to contemplate and that's one thing I love about this board: you've "put the question to me" and I feel obligated to respond. Otherwise those same questions would typically just rattle around my head without an answer ever taking shape or form. I know the process of anwering you with thoughtful consideration will help me. Hopefully my perspective will also help others.

As a precursor: I told a trusted friend a couple of weeks ago "I would take her back, but she would pretty much have to turn herself inside out first"

~O~

Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/12/10 02:54 AM


Quote
Are you currently beyond any thoughts of recovering your M? I know you are not actively working to that end, but if WW has a sudden realization and agrees to comply w/any and all of your requirements, would you? Or have you made up your mind and no matter what, you are marching for Plan D?

Answer � Part I:
I�ve been thinking of this question for two days and I�ve only concluded that it�s very difficult to answer right now because I have such mixed emotions.

First you should know that through a lot of introspection and analysis of my 15 year marriage, I have concluded that, as mentioned above, this M was not based on strong principles. Details not necessary, you can trust me on that. So, the next logical question is why stay in a R for so long if it�s not �working.� My EN�s weren�t being met, not by a long shot. Evidently neither were hers; but with such a lack of communication (an essential ingredient in any bad M) we weren�t able or willing to discuss that fact more than we did.

Of course we didn�t know anything about options or MB principles, so we were just like every other struggling M before a possible solution presents itself (which is usually precipitated by a crisis, unfortunately).

What I always leaned on was a philosophy I developed in college �make a decision and live with it.� That philosophy saved me from a lot of hand-ringing and procrastination throughout my adult life. I always figured I could make the best of virtually any situation. Enter kids into the equation outlined above and you have someone who can swallow a lack of SF for the sake of making sure the children aren�t raised in two single parent households. Frankly, my wife is excellent at avoiding LB�ers. She also found a way to ignore mine, at least on the outside. We went for 7 years like that after the birth of D8.

And you know what? I�d probably do another 8 years like that if I thought it would be positive for the kids. I would walk through fire for them.

However, I won�t endure the abuse of a wayward who isn�t interested in working to better the marriage. That�s not the kind of R I want to model for them. I would be a bad parent if I allowed them to grow up thinking there was anything normal about a parent having boyfriends and then not taking responsibility for such a colossal mistake.

Thing is, she�s never going to own up to her issues. And that brings me to Part II.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/12/10 03:06 AM
Quote
Are you currently beyond any thoughts of recovering your M? I know you are not actively working to that end, but if WW has a sudden realization and agrees to comply w/any and all of your requirements, would you? Or have you made up your mind and no matter what, you are marching for Plan D?
Part II:

I can count on one hand the number of times my wife has accepted responsibility for a bad decision, mistake, etc. She just doesn�t have that trait/skill. I guess it is in her upbringing or genes or something of that nature. Unfortunately, I think this leads to a tremendous inability to grow as a person. When you won�t admit a mistake, you can�t learn from it.

She went through a period of serious contemplation and soul searching, introspection, building when she was in her 20�s. But I think that was about it. I really haven�t seen any substantial desire on her part since we got married to grow as a person. She seems quite content with who she is. And who she is is arguably a pretty good person. Very good in fact. I could actually stay married to her as she�s actually quite pleasant to be around and doesn�t really cause much trouble. But it would be a weak relationship. One that couldn�t endure Adultery.

Through learning about MB principles, I can see that there is a possibility of having a gratifying special relationship. I just don�t see it happening with STBXW.

However, to answer your question more directly, if she somehow came to a change of heart, she would have to agree to a substantial list of conditions I have stored in a document. It is substantial. Almost impossibly substantial.

Interestingly, on Sunday I got her a card. There is actually a section for �Troubled Relationship.� I wrote in it some words about hoping she would explore her spirituality at some point, something I think is sorely missing from her life; just expressing that God hasn�t forgotten her. I also mentioned that if she decided to try and explore the possibility of reconciling, I would be willing to discuss it with her openly. That didn�t get any response. I must be a real SOB, lol.

And don�t get me wrong. I�ve played a very considerable role in getting us where we are today. I recognize that. Part of my problem is being able to point out everyone else�s faults, as I�ve done so effectively above; but hey, that�s me. Call it ignorance. Tragic ignorance. I�ve since learned the difference between disrespectful judgements and recognizing facts � that�s honestly what I�ve tried to do here.

Anyway, this A was the game changer.

It also changed me as a person; I don�t look at things the same way. When we started this whole adventure I remember latching on to our counselor�s phrase �Behaviors repeated form habits. Habits repeated form character.� I have a lot of behaviors that I could stand to adopt, and a lot I could stand to eliminate; the process has started and is influenced highly by what I�ve learned here.


Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/13/10 03:23 AM
Well my last two posts were either too long to read or I haven't veered too far off a sane path yet.

Something that's starting to get to me and I'd like to get myself prepared for it. [I know this is a D question, I'll start a new thread there soon I think, but for now here I am, hopefully someone can give some pointers]

So far everyone is "handling" the concept of D pretty well around here. We've taken extra care to spend time with the kids and give them lots of attention/nurturing, listening, etc.

But that's all it is right now: a concept. ww and I are being quite civil and supportive of each other, so to the kids it's not really impactful that M&D aren't in love anymore.

I'm really worried about when the day finally comes when she moves out, Separation. I want to be prepared if possible, becuase it's going to be really hard for me to be in this house without them, 3 nights then 4 nights/wk. I don't think I'll be that worried about htem b'c ww is generally a good mom.

I�m just afraid I�m going to have a lot of second thoughts.

Anyone have experience with this transition period? Anything else to look out for?

~optimism
Posted By: ToBeContinued Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/13/10 04:39 AM
Hey Opt,

The biggest tip I could give you is to stay busy. The idle time will get your mind racing. You neither want, nor need the mental gymnastics: "What if" scenarios, what is she doing, what are the kids doing, etc. I can't stress enough the need to stay busy during the early stages of the transition. Be with other people, partipipate in activities, focus on work.

When I just want to hang at home by myself, I watch shows or movies that keep me preoccupied.

It's not full-proof, but it helps.

And in case anyone is wondering, I'm holding off on updates on my sitch for a few days. I'll say more later.

Hang in there, Opt.

Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/13/10 01:25 PM
Hey opt - I'm still keeping up with you buddy, but I just don't have a lot to offer as far as advice. I can continue to give you support and hugs, though.

You haven't mentioned the 'second A' in a while - is WW still going over for ummm coffee on a regular basis? What's happening there?
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/14/10 04:10 AM
Quote
The biggest tip I could give you is to stay busy.

Okay, BT. Good, cause that's what I'm planning to do. I'm having the floors done (never could before b/c �it makes a mess, it stinks, costs too much, etc.� Brother! This will require some serious furniture moving (physical work) and when the kids are here I�m looking forward to having all the beds in the LR like a big camp-out. I�ll follow all that up with some serious painting starting with my bedroom; a transformation if you will. All this should be a good 6 weeks b/c I intend to be meticulous; no reason to be in a hurry, really.

The next level of this question is should I go into some sort of a Plan B once ww moves out; or maybe after the court date? Ww isn�t going to like Plan B; won�t fit in with her divorce fantasy. But I think if I explain it�s just to re-center myself after all the pain I�ve been through she might actually respect it. She hasn�t admitted or apologized for her EA (she justifies it/minimizes it/blame shifts it/you name it); but she has been fairly good about recognizing that I consider it adultery. It�s perhaps a dichotomy, but I�m glad she at least gives me that.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/14/10 04:40 AM
Quote
You haven't mentioned the 'second A' in a while - is WW still going over for ummm coffee on a regular basis? What's happening there?

("ummmm coffee" LOL)
No, Linus; she seems to have backed off on this one. About 3 weeks ago I asked her to please just give me some dignity and stop traipsing back and forth to POM#2�s house. She got defensive at first and proclaimed �I don�t care what the neighbors think�� (well, obviously, considering your last affair was with the OTHER neighbor�) ��because I know I�m not doing anything wrong in there.� (a little entitled are we?). But then I calmly explained that I had to live in this neighborhood and I DO care what the neighbors think. For some reason that got through and she has respected the request as far as I know. They could be talking for hours on the phone everyday and I know he helped her get her car fixed after a recent fender-bender, but at least she�s not blatantly humiliating me anymore.

No, this relationship with POM#2 doesn�t seem to have the markings of a real A. But it sure did before, and I sure don�t regret calling a duck a �duck.� My buddy says it won�t be long before the rats start coming out of the woodwork after the D; we�ll see what kind of relationship develops when she�s free to do whatever she wants and that will shed some light on what was going on around the first of the year (and up til then). Thing is: my kids aren�t stupid. They�ll eventually put 1 and 1 together if she dates him and know that the �he�s just a friend� line was yet another untruth. I have no intention of pointing it out � no need. I already had a heart to heart with DS13 that �I don�t hate pom#2, I just have no respect for a single man who tries to spend a lot of time with a married woman. He�s proved to me what kind of a friend he is and that�s not the kind of friend I need.�

Obviously, the level of disrespect she showed toward me by cultivating a relationship with a single man just on the heels of carrying out a full fledged EA was just blatant disregard for me as a person. So A or no A, I am perfectly okay with the fact that that relationship was ultimately the last straw for me. She wasn�t getting it, doesn�t want to get it, never will get it. I wish I could help her.

-and I�ll take all the hugs I can get Linus!

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/14/10 11:37 PM
Had another in-depth conversation with ww this am. I started by asking if she was having any second thoughts about divorce (which she says "yes, from time to time").
I made a point that we could still recover the M, but it would take work. And that I would be willing to do my part if she was interested.

She leaned back on her philosophy that she�s not someone who can follow a �specific path� from �point A to point B� (should be point D, lol). She admires my ability to do so, and even is jealous of it. Therefore MB (or evidently any other formal method of marriage recovery) is just not for her. [All this is probably where the �MB=cult� was coming from]. She says she�s �always been that way...never been one to follow certain methods� (kindof explains the state of affairs now doesn�t it?)

I again presented that I could handle the whole divorce idea better if the path hadn�t had to go through an emotional affair. That her discovering all of her unhappiness via going outside the marriage was pretty lame. (She again re-defined/re-qualified the EA as something other than what it is, but also admitted once again her ultimate embarassment about it).

I also explained that once she realized her discontent, I wish she had given me a chance to make the needed changes in my behavior/character (which I�ve done pretty well for 3-4 months so far, I think).

None of this seemed to have much of an impact, but I felt it was important for me to communicate. She had some responses but they weren�t very impressive to me either, since I can�t seem to remember them right now; although I really was listening intently.

She got back to another one of her gems �if we were meant to be together, it will happen either way.� [like something from a song defines my marriage at this point]. I explained the chances of that get less and less as we go forth towards D and the time to change it would be now, before the hearing.

Not much hope for recovery here, but I figure another try wouldn't hurt. I also feel there's no harm in communicating. I guess I have a lot to learn in that area, the practice helps. And it's therapeutic in a way. Kinda like processing info and writing it here.

---Took D8 to dinner and a movie (Alice in Wonderland) last night. This after winning a pool tournament. Definitely not wallowing in self-pity.


grin
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/15/10 11:45 AM
Originally Posted by optimism
She leaned back on her philosophy that she�s not someone who can follow a �specific path� from �point A to point B� (should be point D, lol). She admires my ability to do so, and even is jealous of it. Therefore MB (or evidently any other formal method of marriage recovery) is just not for her. [All this is probably where the �MB=cult� was coming from]. She says she�s �always been that way...never been one to follow certain methods� (kindof explains the state of affairs now doesn�t it?)
Sounds like fogtalk. She doesn't want to follow a path because she doesn't want to be held accountable for her actions.

Originally Posted by optimism
She got back to another one of her gems �if we were meant to be together, it will happen either way.� [like something from a song defines my marriage at this point].
Don't you just love it? My FWW and POSOM used to communicate by sending each other song titles. I suppose the lyrics were meant to be 'love letters' to each other. Seems like a lot of them were of the 'we were meant to be together' theme. Made me sick.

Originally Posted by optimism
Not much hope for recovery here, but I figure another try wouldn't hurt. I also feel there's no harm in communicating. I guess I have a lot to learn in that area, the practice helps. And it's therapeutic in a way. Kinda like processing info and writing it here.
Keep communicating - ya never know.

Originally Posted by optimism
---Took D8 to dinner and a movie (Alice in Wonderland) last night. This after winning a pool tournament. Definitely not wallowing in self-pity. grin
Great job, opt!! The time spent with the kids is priceless.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/15/10 02:17 PM
Quote
Sounds like fogtalk. She doesn't want to follow a path because she doesn't want to be held accountable for her actions
Hard to figure Linus. Definitely sounds foggy, but I really don't think there's much an affair going on. It's almost more like she's just in love with the idea of not being married anymore. Selfishness. Either way, I agree about the second part. I also think there's a little intellectual laziness going on. MB is definitely not the path of least resistance at this point.Although I did try to point out that D wasn�t going to be a walk in the park either; she claims to understand this.
well, as usual, thanks for your input.

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/15/10 02:21 PM
Quote
Don't you just love it? My FWW and POSOM used to communicate by sending each other song titles. I suppose the lyrics were meant to be 'love letters' to each other. Seems like a lot of them were of the 'we were meant to be together' theme. Made me sick.
Okay, that's gross. What are they 14?
I know my wife really likes the song by Sting "If you love someone, set them free." I actually broke up with her way a long time before we got married and I did come back. I guess she wants me to do the same thing. I'm tyring to point out that it's a little different now that there is a Marriage and kids involved. Unbelievable.

Posted By: ToBeContinued Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/15/10 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
Quote
Sounds like fogtalk. She doesn't want to follow a path because she doesn't want to be held accountable for her actions
Hard to figure Linus. Definitely sounds foggy, but I really don't think there's much an affair going on. It's almost more like she's just in love with the idea of not being married anymore. Selfishness. Either way, I agree about the second part. I also think there's a little intellectual laziness going on. MB is definitely not the path of least resistance at this point.Although I did try to point out that D wasn�t going to be a walk in the park either; she claims to understand this.
opt

Hey Opt,

Skatt has given me a lot of the same lines. And I TOTALLY agree that, like Mrs. Opt, Skatt is just kind of in love with the idea of being on her own. NOT being married anymore. Sure, there's something still percolating between the two of us, and neither one of us wants to throw away some great history, but it's just not enough. Unfortunately, what we HAD, coupled with what we CAN HAVE, doesn't outweigh what she currently HAS. Her independence.

So, we both walk a little closer to that cliff.....

Hang in there, Opt.

TB
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/16/10 02:51 AM
Opt-

Sorry to leave you hanging there. I have read your posts over the last couple days and I can totally relate to the contemplation and 'soul searching' you are doing.

I appreciate and understand your answer to my question (both parts) and you have also given me quite a bit to think about in my own situation. I agree with Linus that a lot of what your WW seems to be saying is still a bunch of fog talk. It seems your WW and mine are cut from the same mold.

I'll respond more later, but I just wanted to let you know I am still here with you my friend.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/16/10 02:53 AM
BT, why do you call her Skatt?
I guess she has her reasons for wanting to be "alone." (time will tell what alone really means). I havent' been the best husband. Not taking all the blame here, but there does come a time when too little too late is too little, too late.

Linus. I'm worried about Limb.
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/16/10 03:39 AM
Originally Posted by optimism
Quote
Are you currently beyond any thoughts of recovering your M? I know you are not actively working to that end, but if WW has a sudden realization and agrees to comply w/any and all of your requirements, would you? Or have you made up your mind and no matter what, you are marching for Plan D?

Answer � Part I:
I�ve been thinking of this question for two days and I�ve only concluded that it�s very difficult to answer right now because I have such mixed emotions.

First you should know that through a lot of introspection and analysis of my 15 year marriage, I have concluded that, as mentioned above, this M was not based on strong principles. Details not necessary, you can trust me on that. So, the next logical question is why stay in a R for so long if it�s not �working.� My EN�s weren�t being met, not by a long shot. Evidently neither were hers; but with such a lack of communication (an essential ingredient in any bad M) we weren�t able or willing to discuss that fact more than we did.

Isn't that the crux of our whole problem? Recovery and a healthy marriage are possible as long as BOTH spouses are willing to work towards that end. MB and many others have said and demonstrated that love can be restored in a dying marriage, but all have also said that it takes two to get there. Seems we BSs have to sit by and wait for the light to come on over the wayward's head. How do you make somebody become willing to be willing?

Of course we didn�t know anything about options or MB principles, so we were just like every other struggling M before a possible solution presents itself (which is usually precipitated by a crisis, unfortunately).

And now one of you has learned these principles and a way to restore love in the relationship, however one spouse alone is not enough.

What I always leaned on was a philosophy I developed in college �make a decision and live with it.� That philosophy saved me from a lot of hand-ringing and procrastination throughout my adult life. I always figured I could make the best of virtually any situation. Enter kids into the equation outlined above and you have someone who can swallow a lack of SF for the sake of making sure the children aren�t raised in two single parent households. Frankly, my wife is excellent at avoiding LB�ers. She also found a way to ignore mine, at least on the outside. We went for 7 years like that after the birth of D8.

I like the 'make a decision and stick with it' philosophy. Maybe that's why we are here, struggling heroically to find redemption in our decision to marry in the first place. Continuing to sacrifice of our own happiness to meet our spouse's ENs and protect the children because "that is what we are supposed to do."
Seems like you both were missing something from each other and trying to carry on with your lives, not knowing at the time that there was a better way to work a marriage.


And you know what? I�d probably do another 8 years like that if I thought it would be positive for the kids. I would walk through fire for them.

However, I won�t endure the abuse of a wayward who isn�t interested in working to better the marriage. That�s not the kind of R I want to model for them. I would be a bad parent if I allowed them to grow up thinking there was anything normal about a parent having boyfriends and then not taking responsibility for such a colossal mistake.

Once again, what I think is the crux of the problem. Getting a wayward to become willing. Enter into the equation some of our own justifiable anger and pretty soon, enough is enough. We keep searching for the magic bullet, but at what cost to ourselves?

Thing is, she�s never going to own up to her issues. And that brings me to Part II.

At least while she is still in the active A and fog. Many former waywards acted and behaved in the same manner until the A ended and the fog lifted.
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/16/10 04:05 AM
Originally Posted by optimism
Quote
Are you currently beyond any thoughts of recovering your M? I know you are not actively working to that end, but if WW has a sudden realization and agrees to comply w/any and all of your requirements, would you? Or have you made up your mind and no matter what, you are marching for Plan D?
Part II:

I can count on one hand the number of times my wife has accepted responsibility for a bad decision, mistake, etc. She just doesn�t have that trait/skill. I guess it is in her upbringing or genes or something of that nature. Unfortunately, I think this leads to a tremendous inability to grow as a person. When you won�t admit a mistake, you can�t learn from it.

It is so odd that my WW shares this exact same trait. I seriously can't remember when she has EVER genuinely apologized. Even her counselor has said she is the most stubborn person she has ever met. I also think this is a very tough character flaw to get past.

She went through a period of serious contemplation and soul searching, introspection, building when she was in her 20�s. But I think that was about it. I really haven�t seen any substantial desire on her part since we got married to grow as a person. She seems quite content with who she is. And who she is is arguably a pretty good person. Very good in fact. I could actually stay married to her as she�s actually quite pleasant to be around and doesn�t really cause much trouble. But it would be a weak relationship. One that couldn�t endure Adultery.

Through learning about MB principles, I can see that there is a possibility of having a gratifying special relationship. I just don�t see it happening with STBXW.

However, to answer your question more directly, if she somehow came to a change of heart, she would have to agree to a substantial list of conditions I have stored in a document. It is substantial. Almost impossibly substantial.

I saw in another thread a listing of requirements to be met. Some vets had knocked out some of the specifics and recommended changing it to simply living by the PJOA. Just a thought.

Interestingly, on Sunday I got her a card. There is actually a section for �Troubled Relationship.� Found one of these cards in that section too! Hallmark- they think of everything don't they? I wrote in it some words about hoping she would explore her spirituality at some point, something I think is sorely missing from her life; just expressing that God hasn�t forgotten her. I also mentioned that if she decided to try and explore the possibility of reconciling, I would be willing to discuss it with her openly. That didn�t get any response. I must be a real SOB, lol.

I think that was a very noble attempt, and really probably the only one that will work. We are completely, utterly incapable of changing our waywards. No form of rational logic, education, pleading, charming,or even ignoring seems to have much impact. We are powerless to 'make' our waywards see things our way, or have a change of heart. This MUST come from within them, and they are usually also incapable of making that change themselves. I am convinced that only God has the power to change or soften a wayward's heart. JMHO, and I don't mean to get preachy, but this is something I am having a hard time trying to accept. I'm trying to let go and put this in God's hands. As my MIL recently asked my WW, "Where in His word can you find His approval of this relatoinship?" (She is a great woman)

And don�t get me wrong. I�ve played a very considerable role in getting us where we are today. I recognize that. Part of my problem is being able to point out everyone else�s faults, as I�ve done so effectively above; but hey, that�s me. Call it ignorance. Tragic ignorance. I�ve since learned the difference between disrespectful judgements and recognizing facts � that�s honestly what I�ve tried to do here.

It seems that D-day and the A are instant eye-openers and allow us to really see our lives with clarity, both internally and externally.

Anyway, this A was the game changer.

It also changed me as a person; I don�t look at things the same way. When we started this whole adventure I remember latching on to our counselor�s phrase �Behaviors repeated form habits. Habits repeated form character.� I have a lot of behaviors that I could stand to adopt, and a lot I could stand to eliminate; the process has started and is influenced highly by what I�ve learned here.

That is what I believe one of the greatest things about this site and the MB principles- the self-improvement and self-awareness that comes along with this life changing (and shattering) process. I guess there really is some good in everything.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/16/10 12:49 PM
Quote
I think that was a very noble attempt, and really probably the only one that will work. We are completely, utterly incapable of changing our waywards. No form of rational logic, education, pleading, charming,or even ignoring seems to have much impact. We are powerless to 'make' our waywards see things our way, or have a change of heart. This MUST come from within them, and they are usually also incapable of making that change themselves. I am convinced that only God has the power to change or soften a wayward's heart. JMHO, and I don't mean to get preachy, but this is something I am having a hard time trying to accept. I'm trying to let go and put this in God's hands. As my MIL recently asked my WW, "Where in His word can you find His approval of this relatoinship?" (She is a great woman)

Limb!! So glad to hear from you. And thanks so much for your insightful comments.

I have to tell you, first of all -not preachy, at all. Anyway. Last night I said a Rosary for the first time in years for my sife to find her Faith. REading your quote above was just another example of the ways He works in our lives.

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/17/10 03:20 AM
Okay, a little episode I have to share:
finally confronted ww on a Possible EA she might have had while on a cruise over Christmas break. Some of you may remember reading about it in this thread- I couldn't go it was DS13 and her Father & STBStep Mother. I did my first snooping in 2 months tonight and found out she was indeed communicating with this guy as late as Feb 6 � two weeks after I pulled the trigger on Divorce. Not extremely substantial e-mails (and he lives in��.ready for this��..Australia!). I found it curious that she made sure to point out in her email that �the divorce will final in a couple of months.�

If you remember my daily letters fell totally flat and she accused me of "invading her space" - I suspect I was disrupting her ability to carry out yet another affair in peace and privacy.

Well we have been having really good communication throughout the divorce and this new info was bothering me (not sure why, it really just affirms for me that I can�t be married to her anymore). So I came right out with it: �I know you had an affair with �A� and I was just wondering what the status of your relationship is with him at this point�.

She squirmed a little, employed some diversional tactics (�he was just a friend, if I was going to have an affair it would have been with �B�). I could tell she was lying because her lips were moving.

Now here�s the good part:
I then put on some puppy-dog eyes and asked �Do you think I�ll ever trust anyone again?�

Wayward Wife answer for the ages:
�yes, but you are going to have to do something that you�re really happy about first.�
dontknow
In other words, my distrust isn�t about her betraying me, it�s about my own personal discontent with myself. Something inside of me that I need to discover.


The ULTIMATE blame shift.
gmab.

opt

Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/17/10 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
. . . I could tell she was lying because her lips were moving. . . .
rotflmao rotflmao

Glad to see you still have a sense of humor, my friend!

I still find your sitch hard to believe. Like out of the Twilight Zone. How can a human being exhibit such outwardly wayward behavior for so long? She obviously is resigned to the Big D, but I doubt highly if she understands all of the ramifications.

How are you coping these days?
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/17/10 02:12 PM
Quote
How are you coping these days?
easy linus, I'm taking my wife's advice and trying to "do something that I'm really happy about."

Just kidding. Some days are better than others. I like that the household is peaceful - it's very important to me that the kids don't experience more stress and strain than necessary. My roommate and I are doing a good job protecting them.

How about you?
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/17/10 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
(�he was just a friend, if I was going to have an affair it would have been with �B�).
skeptical.....Now THERE'S some good gaslighting fogganese.......Heck Opt, she is so trustworthy and honorable, I'm not sure WHY you are pursueing a D......Hey, at least you know who your enemy is (and it AIN'T guy B).... MrRollieEyes

Originally Posted by Opt
Wayward Wife answer for the ages:
�yes, but you are going to have to do something that you�re really happy about first.�

doh2........OKAY, I have been on these boards for 2 yrs and 3 months. I have seen countless affair situations, heard NUMEROUS foggbabble, not to mention I walked through my OWH H's affair and his rendition of fogganese, blame-shifting, and bull-chit. So one would think I have a pretty good grasp of these things......BUT Opt, I gotta tell ya..... I have NO FREAKING clue what the heck that statement MEANS!!!!.... Honestly, I am dumbfounded..... doh2....Me thinks your WW has taken one too many hits of the affair-pipe..... grin

Anyway, take a look at the "Typical WW" thread. Your wife seems to fit the Non-typical variety list (especially #5......"Follow your heart" is her moral compass in life...).

I would honestly stop having these kinds of conversations with her....her "condition" might be contagious......

Not2fun

ps....in all serious, I'm glad to hear you doing well all things considered .... grin
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/17/10 04:40 PM
Still taking it one day at at time. Some are better than others. When I look at 'the big picture', I feel fortunate, but there are times when I still feel like I'm doing most of the R work and FWW is along for the ride, and that bothers me. There are other times when I can see major changes in her behavior that give me hope. We are definitely in a better place than we were 6 months ago (D-Day) and a year ago when we were very far apart.

I really wish we could get to the point where we were both trying to follow MB principles, but she's not interested at this point. We are still seeing our MC, who's very good, and that has helped a lot.

Like you, things are very calm in the home, and that's been very good for the kids. When she was active in the EA, things were miserable around here and that had a bad affect on them. They can see that we're getting along very well these days, and they are also happier.

The main reason for the calmness is that I have finally gotten good at avoiding LBs. Makes a huge difference!

BUT, and isn't there always a but, I know that we're still not back 100% and we may never be. You see, I don't want to get back to where we were - that wasn't good enough for either of us. Lot's of ENs not being met on both sides. I want to feel like we're working on our marriage all the time, not just 'getting along'. It's kind of like being an athlete - you need to constantly work at your game, whether it's basketball, golf, tennis, baseball or whatever, in order to stay competitive. If you just try to get a long on your natural abilities, you fall behind. I think it's the same in marriage. My frustration now is that I don't see her having that same commitment to getting better and to be the best we can be (sounds like an Army commercial!) She seems to be content that we're getting along. Maybe it's still early - only about 3 months into R.

Didn't mean to thread-jack, my friend - glad you asked, though!
hug
Posted By: Wheels_spinning Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/17/10 04:58 PM
Australia!? You have got to be kidding! You, me, and SOL all have WW going after Australians?

There seems to be some type of sterotype forming here. Next you know I will be joining an anti-Australian group.
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/17/10 05:07 PM
What is it with these Aussies going after married American women???? Is there something wrong with Aussie women? Maybe there's something in Fosters . . .

edit PS - just havin' a little fun here grin
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/17/10 05:19 PM
Infidelity/adultery is a human being issue, not a nationality issue. There have been many betrayed Aussie's on these boards.

Keep your focus on your WW's....therein lies the problem
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/17/10 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by not2fun
Infidelity/adultery is a human being issue, not a nationality issue. There have been many betrayed Aussie's on these boards.

Keep your focus on your WW's....therein lies the problem

Aww, just havin' a little fun NotTooFun. I started it by pointing out the suspected relationship my ww might have developed during the cruise. I don't know if I ever mentioned it but the first clue was a couple of pictures FIL took of ww and the Aussie in a fairly close embrace. I suppose it could have been anything, but I also saw the look on ww's face... - thanks Dad for the Kodak moment.

Thanks for your reposnse above also N2F, I always look froward to hearing from you. I'm also checking out that thread you mentioned.

opt
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/17/10 06:05 PM
My post was meant in jest. Guess I should have added a smiley or two MrRollieEyes
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/17/10 09:11 PM
Quote
Anyway, take a look at the "Typical WW" thread. Your wife seems to fit the Non-typical variety list (especially #5......"Follow your heart" is her moral compass in life...).
I saw some of it. I think she has a few more as well.
--Also interested to measure my own waywardness up against the list. Been thinking about that a lot today.

Quote
I would honestly stop having these kinds of conversations with her....her "condition" might be contagious....
I "gown up" before I have a conversation with her. She wonders why I am covered in yellow disposable fabric, mask, and gloves. I just tell her "don't worry dear, it's for your protection."

opt

Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/17/10 09:23 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
--Also interested to measure my own waywardness up against the list. Been thinking about that a lot today.

So, what did you come up with?..... Remember that list is for WWIVES, not the H's. There was talk of doing one concerning WH's but it never did happen.....but what exactly are you thinking about your OWN wayward behavior?

Quote
I "gown up" before I have a conversation with her.

Ohhhhhh, is it a Vera Wang model????.... flirt

Not2fun
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/17/10 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by Linus
My post was meant in jest. Guess I should have added a smiley or two MrRollieEyes

my post was not meant for you or Opt, but for newbies reading along that are still mired in the beginning mess. Trying to keep their focus where it should be.....

But I understood the joking.... wink
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/18/10 02:25 AM
Quote
my post was not meant for you or Opt, but for newbies reading along that are still mired in the beginning mess. Trying to keep their focus where it should be.....
No, we get it N2F. I have injected my share of humor into my thread, mostly b/c it's who I am and it feels good to be getting some of my old personality back (hopefully just the good parts of it).
HOWEVER, I do remember going through threads as a newby and not being in any sort of mood for jokes.

I'd be honored if someone was able to learn from my experience. Hopefully they'll read the whole thread to see someone grow from total bewilderment to some degree of acceptance through intensive learning and seeking difficult answers.

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/18/10 02:31 AM
Quote
So, what did you come up with?..... Remember that list is for WWIVES, not the H's. There was talk of doing one concerning WH's but it never did happen.....but what exactly are you thinking about your OWN wayward behavior?

I can�t get through that whole thread, but I found KiwiJ�s post most interesting and relevant.
My situation reflected by ** below.
**this is a painful and embarrassing exercise...

[This is from an ANCIENT thread which I was on. (Do you know how totally weird it is going back to first posts? I don't even recognise that person - me) It describes an OM, so I guess it also describes the WH. I found it very true when I first read it. It seems to fit here.]

"What the OM wants:

-They want the A to stay w/in bounds
**Had my limits to keep it safe from getting caught

-They thrive on the diversion, the excitement of the illicit, forbidden sex. the variety.
**I was having needs met that wife was not meeting (due to various reasons). I didn't like the secrecy part- probalby 1 reason why I never pursued any more A's.

-Some get relief from home. May be having M issues. May have a W that ignores him for kids, work, etc.
**(as above)

-Able to reveal themselves emotionally.
**not me.

- Doesn't want the R to get serious!!
**absolutely. In it for one thing (which, strangely, was not my character, I might add)

-He may say "I love you" but he still isn't committing to anything
**no commitment on my part

-Men regard an A as an addition to marriage not as possible replacement
**yup

-Most men let the married women know about the restrictions of the R. "I'd never divorce my wife because of the kids." That is the number 1 excuse the OM uses
**when I told my Affair Partner (who in retrospect was trying to bust up my M) I had no intention of leaving my wife, the whole thing cooled off and died out a short time later � 9/11 also had an affect on the affair.

-The woman's emotional investment flatters the OM but causes discomfort
**I was always nervous she�d reveal the sitch, but fortunately she was my SUPERVISOR, so I had that over her head.

- Married women are unlikely to end the undiscovered A. It's usually the OM."
**Ending was mutual and helped by OW moving out of town.


Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/18/10 02:48 AM
Quote
. I want to feel like we're working on our marriage all the time, not just 'getting along'. It's kind of like being an athlete - you need to constantly work at your game, whether it's basketball, golf, tennis, baseball or whatever, in order to stay competitive. If you just try to get a long on your natural abilities, you fall behind. I think it's the same in marriage. My frustration now is that I don't see her having that same commitment to getting better and to be the best we can be (sounds like an Army commercial!) She seems to be content that we're getting along. Maybe it's still early - only about 3 months into R.
I do a lot of baseball umpiring (Little League, I�m no pro). One of my favorite mottos I�ve heard from being around these guys is �you�re either getting better, or you�re getting worse.�

Also, I remember reading MB 101 for a while when I was learning about the site. It seems that a lot of folks there will come in (not affair driven) with motivation to improve their marriage but their mate is NOT getting on board with strict MB principles. Frustrating. Point is: those willing spouses were advised (if I remember right) to live the principles and basically lead by example.
I�m probably not saying it right, but you�re not alone in your quest. I guess the advice is: apply the principles to yourself and good things will happen. Have you tried presenting her with one idea at a time? Like explaining the POJA and asking her to try it with you for a while�maybe she'd be more receptive if it was spoon fed in small managable bites.
[Edit to add: sorry Linus, I just caught up with your "6 months" thread and it looks like youre already doing the poja. nice work]

[Linus, I totally don�t mind you hijacking, you�re welcome to my abode anytime. However, I might ask the mods to move this and your post to your thread because I think it would be helpful there � you�ve hit on some good ideas and they could be built upon in the context of your story]

opt

Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/18/10 03:05 AM
Quote
.....but what exactly are you thinking about your OWN wayward behavior?
I justified it in so many ways. My wife has some sexual dysfunction based on a terrible incident from when she was a teen that never was addressed. What I really regret right now, is that if I had handled that better, with compassion and understanding, love and care, I might have been able to help her through that and then who knows where we'd be today. Instead I gave up on her. So now she'll carry that into the next phase of her life, maybe forever.

I also was of the seriously disillusioned and ignorant mindset that an affair could be carried out and not cause any harm as long as it wasn�t discovered. Since it was a supplement to my M, I thought it helped us. (I so want to puke even saying it).
In fact, I remember telling my adultery partner, once we decided to end it, that the experience had actually made my M better. [a real Casanova am I�]
Affair partner was willing to do things wife was not, I could please her in ways my wife wasn�t interested in. This strengthened my sense of entitlement. What I should have done was work within the M to build the trust with my wife and increase her comfort with me. We never had good communication when it came to SF.

I could probably go on but I'm making myself sick.

Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/18/10 02:27 PM
[ww's answer to "will I ever be able to trust anyone again]
Quote
Originally Posted By: OptWayward Wife answer for the ages:
�yes, but you are going to have to do something that you�re really happy about first.�
Okay, I got some clarification on this last night. (I don't know why I do this). The next permeutation was
"you need to feel good about yourself. And you'll have to feel very confident in your own ability to forgive."
--and that, folks, is a ww's interpretation on what it takes for a man to be able to trust someone after they've been through Dday. ...sounds a lot like "follow your heart."

opt
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/20/10 11:10 PM
Hi Optimism,
I am going to sign off this site now. I've posted just a little bit ago that C and I did reconcile, and it relieved a lot of my pain.

I just wanted to thank you for your support. Alsothat you have my support and prayers in your situation.

I know that this is anethema on most sites, and I realize that being in an online AA site now for several years, but I feel you are someone worth knowing, and if you ever did want to contact me my email is: tr4551@att.net

In meantime thank you and you will have my prayers.

Rom

Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/21/10 03:05 AM
Why, thank you, Rom; you're entirely too kind.

Not2Fun, if you're still checking in, I think you're right about I need to stop having "these conversations" with my ww. Not because some of her logic might "rub off" on me - I can assure you there is no worry about that. smile

Another big discussion this morning has me convinced beyond any doubt that I can no longer be around this woman. She is lost. Morally drifting at sea. It's rather sad. I really feel the only thing I can do for her is pray for her.

I am concerned that this woman will be bringing up my children up to 50% of the time. This strengthens my resolve to provide for them the best possible example of Integrity and True North Principles that I can. MB has shown me a new path; onward I march; I hope my children follow my footsteps and not someone else's.

Soon I'll let this thread fade and start a new one in Divorce board. Ww's financing went through (with help from Bank Daddy), she moves out in 11 days (not that I'm counting...)

Optimism
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/22/10 10:49 AM
Opt - you will be starting a new journey soon - a new life. A better life for you and the kids. I'll follow your new thread and offer all of the support I can. It's going to be rough.

Your WW has no idea what she's losing.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/22/10 04:50 PM
Thanks Linus as always.
It's good to know there are folks out there that are concerned and supportive and helpful.

Quote
It's going to be rough.
I've always had the utmost respect for the single parent. I marvel at my sister, divorced 10 years with 2 kids. Parenting is so much work I literally don't know how people do it.

Last night I had some alone time and was reflecting on the fact that last time I was single was such a long time ago [wow, I don't think I've ever used the word "time" three times in one sentence before]. I was very bad at it, missed a lot of opportunities; drank way too much and didn't get out enough.
This time will be different.

You know I'll be checking in on your situation too friend

Opt

Posted By: Scotland Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/22/10 05:07 PM
Opt- I think we need to get you a thesaurus hehehehehehe.

I too have marveled at single parents and how hard it is and now I get to find out for myself. YEA ME(sarcasm).

Hang in there Opt.
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/26/10 08:18 PM
Hey opt - I just noticed/realized that you're in MA. I grew up in New England, and lived there (MA, CT, RI) for many, many years.

Go Sawx smile
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/28/10 02:17 PM
Hey Linus,
I moved out here for college and never moved back to Michigan where I grew up.

WW is in the process of packing up her stuff. Wednesday she closes and moves out, we've agreed to go halfs on the moving company.

Not second guessing, but....mixed emotions. I've spent a lot of my life with this woman.

~opt
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/30/10 10:39 AM
I'm sorry opt - it's got to hurt. Hard to believe how these things evolve. It's amazing to me that the distance from 'He's just a friend' to her moving out is so short. Like Limbo's WW, she will experience a fall. The 'magic dust' is going to go away, and she's going to realize what she's lost. Sad.

Let us know how it goes the next few days. I'll be thinking about you, my friend. Knock down a couple of root bears - it will help.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/30/10 12:35 PM
Linus,
thanks friend.
The ckickens are already coming home to roost. I'm being cordial, but when I walk away I recite my new chant in my head "NOT my Problem." --it's only my problem when it becomes my kids' problem, then we deal.

anyway, thanks for checking in. i'm over on Divorce board now
"Another D Story."
A post stays up at the top there for 3 days, lol.

Cheers.
opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/31/10 05:14 PM
Last night WW shared with me that she heard there is now at least one rumor around our relatively small town that she is moving into a condo (true) and has a boyfriend (at this point probably not true).

She doesn't like it one bit.

What am I supposed to say (rhetorical)? I don't think it's particularly funny because it reflects on the kids and could affect them at school.

But what does she expect (rhetorical agian)? In the last year she spent a LOT of time with OM#1(all last summer) in the neighborhood, going to the gym, out on the front porch, and who-knows where else; all in public view. This fall it was the OTHER neighbor - shopping, tanning salon, etc. She went house hunting with this guy right across from D8's school- D8 and her teacher saw her in plain view. On at least two occasions in November, she spent time at the club we go to having drinks with yet a different one (maybe in a group, but still) - this club is like rumor central.

All the while I was hearing "I don't care what people think, they should mind their business" type of stuff. I guess she cares a little more than she thought.

Anyway, I didn't say much. I did caution her to go a few months before starting anything and to be exceedingly careful, again I'm thinking more for the kids' sake than hers.

Thank golly again for this site and helping me have a plan. I have not given anyone a reason to speculate about my life. That's a good feeling.


~opt
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/31/10 06:32 PM
Good to see you back on this forum again Opt. I need to head over to the other forum and find your new thread. Chances are I will be starting my own thread there as well too.

Looks to me like this is an example of "Allowing the consequences of adultery and infidelity to fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous." from Pep's Carrot and Stick.

I'm sure it is still hard to watch though.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 03/31/10 10:20 PM
((((Opt)))),

Hey....I'm still following along.....


Originally Posted by optimism
Last night WW shared with me that she heard there is now at least one rumor around our relatively small town that she is moving into a condo (true) and has a boyfriend (at this point probably not true).

She doesn't like it one bit.
crybaby

Oh well.....When you DO questionable actions, you get a questionable reputation.....


Quote
What am I supposed to say (rhetorical)?

I could think of a GAZILLION things, HOWEVER, at this time, just getting her outta YOUR life would be more condusive to your sanity....


Quote
I don't think it's particularly funny because it reflects on the kids and could affect them at school.

I feel for you. HOWEVER, it is a consequence of her waywardness. I would get an answer prepared in case the kids come to YOU for questions, should they catch wind of this.....Waywards care nothing about how their actions hurt anyone, INCLUDING their children...(even if they do say otherwise....)



Quote
All the while I was hearing "I don't care what people think, they should mind their business" type of stuff. I guess she cares a little more than she thought.

Of course she does.....




NOW......




because she wants to make herself as "marketable" as possible.

Quote
I did caution her to go a few months before starting anything and to be exceedingly careful, again I'm thinking more for the kids' sake than hers.

You might have wasted your breathe on that one...... grin

Ya know,.....

Just because you are divorcing, that doesn't mean you have to move on over to the Divorced threads. We have many here on SaA who stayed, even during and after their D's......ChaiLover, SDGuy, Wildhorses, SilentLucidity....oh, and even Amazin.....

Keep us posted....there's nothing like reading about Recovery, even if it's only a personal one....

not2fun
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/01/10 01:14 AM
Limbo, once again you're right. I was thinking more of the "you can choose your actions but not the consequences," but I like your tag better.

Quote
I'm sure it is still hard to watch though.
Trying to make the best of it.

o

Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/01/10 01:27 AM
Thanks, Two!

Quote
I could think of a GAZILLION things, HOWEVER, at this time, just getting her outta YOUR life would be more condusive to your sanity....

I hear ya, Not2fun. I'm trying to pull away gracefully. I don't want to upset the kids. And there's still the court date. I want to remain in her good graces (with a little guilt thrown in for good measure) to make sure she sticks with the current separation/divorce agreement, which is more fair than most guys get.

Quote
I would get an answer prepared in case the kids come to YOU for questions, should they catch wind of this..
Definitely, I hadn't thought of that.

Quote
because she wants to make herself as "marketable" as possible.
Hadn't thought of that either.

Quote
Keep us posted....there's nothing like reading about Recovery, even if it's only a personal one....
I will, N2F, I will. I like being on the D board too. None of the updates are fast and furious like in the beginning with plan A and all that, so I'll kinda keep both threads alive I guess.

Hey Knot, you told me some time ago you were concerned I might try to start dating too early. How long do you think I should wait? I would wait till after the court date, and then be totally discrete, but gosh I haven't even talked to a woman (besides ww) in a long, long time...[of course if others have thoughts on this, please chime in!]

Opt
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/01/10 09:15 AM
I don't think anyone's ever called me TWO.... :think

Most call me Not, but not Knot....

You also called me Not2fun and N2F.....

So which one are ya gonna call me???.... rotflmao


Originally Posted by optimism
Hey Knot, you told me some time ago you were concerned I might try to start dating too early. How long do you think I should wait?

Till the Divorce is FINAL!!!!....

Hey, you asked for MY opinion....

No, in all seriousness though, considering all that you have learned on here and about marriage, all you have learned about adultery, you should remain true to your beliefs....even if you are separated and seeking divorce, you are still technically married...remember, you just said....

Quote
I have not given anyone a reason to speculate about my life. That's a good feeling....

That should be your mantra for now...


Quote
I would wait till after the court date, and then be totally discrete, but gosh I haven't even talked to a woman (besides ww)

If you do this, then you WILL give people something to speculate about....

But I'm more concerned for how that would affect YOUR personal healing and growth rather than what other people would think....

Now, it is YOUR life....you are the one that has to look at yourself in the mirror every day....would dating someone right now squander that???...

I know you might be a bit "antsy"...after all, you have been fighting the long hard affair fight. But really, the growth you will get by WAITING, will make this eternity seem like a drop in the bucket....

(ok, I am SOOOOO not sure that made any sense.....It's late, I am unable to sleep, I don't think I am helping...)


not2fun
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/01/10 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by optimism
She doesn't like it one bit.
Hey opt!!!

DUHHHHHH - what did she think was going to happen????? Oh, wait, WWs DON'T THINK do they.

You know, there is going to be a day when your WW has reality handed to her and it ain't gonna be pretty. All you can do is protect your kids as much as possible, take care of yourself, and then watch as her world comes tumbling down. I feel bad - for you and the kids, not her.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/01/10 11:08 AM
Too ( whistle ) , that makes a lot of sense; thanks.

I definitely will hold strong to my belief that I'm married till I'm not married. Through MB (and this whole situation, I've developed a genuine respect for the concept of radical honesty. I can see how my lack of total honesty degraded my marriage for years before things finally were completely deteriorated (and lead to the conditions for ww's ea). So I envision a day when I find the 'woman of my dreams' and the honesty about past/present/and future comes into play; I want to be able to honestly say I held true to my beliefs, standards, morals, integrity, etc. even through difficult times.

not2fun, I thought you were going to say I should wait until several months after the D was final or something like that. cool

~O
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/02/10 03:10 AM
Development:
First Day for ww in her new condo and who do you think is hanging pictures for her?? Yup, you guessed it - Potential OM#2.

I didn't say anything at first but later I couldn't contain myself; called and let her know I was extremely disappointed that she continued to have that level of disrespect for me (I know - wasting my breath), but what I was really concerned about was the potential effect she was having on both kids with these reckless decisions. I pointed out that she already was concerned about rumors going around about her and that she's only fueling them by inviting single men into the house, under any circumstances.

Of course she started in with "he's just a friend..." and some half-a$$ed thing about explaining the situation to anyone who speculates (unbelievable). I explained, in turn, that she's not going to get that opportunity when people are whispering behind corners, but their KIDS will hear them talking and it will get back to our kids and could have devastating consequences for them.

So, she said she would just explain it all to them. And I said she could spin it all she wants but the kids will know the truth and furthermore she is setting them up for failure when they have marriage partners who want to have all kinds of "friends" and wind up in the same situation we're in.

I thought I was over the hurt. Okay we're separated, but since we're still officially married, knowing she's getting her pictures hung by a single male "friend" still feels like adultery. If I can refrain from having my pictures hung, why can't she???? Scot says it best:
Quote
Wayturds suck A$$.

I should totally be Plan B-ing this woman, for my own sanity. But I'm afraid if I rock the boat too much she'll renege on the current separation agreement and come after me for the full court allowed child support payment (which would bust me financially). So, I feel like I have to take some degree of abuse, but I think I did pretty good telling her my feelings/expressing my concerns without DJ's ( clap - golf clap for opt!).

I've already promised her whole family I'd be there at Easter. They LOVE me. My kids expect me there. I have no family here to bail me out. I'm not sure if I can do it, unless ww makes some sort of an acknowledgment that she was using extremely poor judgement and will be more careful in the future (yea, right...).

I might have to buy some ipecac syrup Saturday.
frown

~opt


Posted By: Scotland Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/02/10 03:22 AM
Don't have to tell you what you already know.

It's good that her family likes you. They all know right? WW will most definitely NOT acknowledge any wrong doing on her part. She thinks she is doing NOTHING wrong. Don't let what she is doing get in the wqay of what you are doing. If you are going to do a modified Plan A/B/D/FU then go for it. You know what is best for you. Plan B does save ones sanity but in the long run, if you would face financial ruin and you know that better than I, you have to make that choice yourself. Now that she is outta the house, it would be a good time though. laugh

BTW ipecac INDUCES vomiting and I don't think you need that. Maybe you will need the gravel to STOP the things she will spew. laugh
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/02/10 04:24 AM
Opt, I feel ya brother. I share the frustration of desperately wanting to go Plan B, but not being in a situation to allow it to happen. I'm in a very similar situation with the Easter holiday plans too. Not sure if I'm going to WWs family though.

Are you certain that a Plan B would threaten your agreement?
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/02/10 12:20 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
Development:
First Day for ww in her new condo and who do you think is hanging pictures for her?? Yup, you guessed it - Potential OM#2.
Separated or not, that really sucks. Absolutely no respect for you or the kids. I'm feelin' for ya buddy.

OM#2 is the 'coffee buddy' right? Sheeesh - no class.

Sorry opt.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/02/10 03:11 PM
Your STBXWW is a dim-witted, socially and morally clueless [censored]!!!!

I'm at the Dr.'s right now but I'll be back to comment more.....

One question though......where were the kids when coffee-shop Scumeo was there???

Not2fun
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/02/10 08:11 PM
I know I should have checked in here first, but at 4am last night I couldn't help myself any longer.
I wrote this email to coffee-shop Scumeo. (if you recall it was actually coffee in his home, but I like the nick name):

You really should end your relationship with my wife at least until the divorce is final. I hate to have to point this out to you but by carrying on during the separation you are doing nothing but contributing to her image as a slut. You know as well as I do that in this town, perception is reality.

Notwithstanding the incredible disrespect you obviously have for me, my wife, and yourself, my children do not deserve to grow up in a town where everyone believes their mother is an adultere
r.


And this to my ww:
I can�t stop you from spitting on our marriage and defiling your own reputation. I can�t stop you from hurting me by continuing to develop �friendships� with single men while you are still married to me. I can only ask that you have some respect for your children and stop giving people in this town fuel for the rumors that you are a slut. S13 and D8 don�t deserve that.

Any man that would put you in the position to gain a reputation like you are gaining is not your �friend.� He is a predator with one thing on his mind
.



Okay, get out your 2x4's!!
pray

~opt

ps: Actually, LBer check tells me there may be no need for 2x4's- just stating facts and feelings. (maybe a little DJ at the end...)
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/03/10 12:59 AM
Quote
She thinks she is doing NOTHING wrong
\Thanks Scotty for your words.
It's hard for me to get that she will never "see the light" but thanks for trying to reinforce it.
But I had a serious talk with both kids this am in which I explained that it was NOT RIGHT for a married person to have friends of the opposite sex if it makes the other person feel uncomfortable. I never mentioned any specifics and I made a simple example with myself; D8 got it on some level she said "Daddy, you always do the right thing" (bless her heart). S13 knew exactly what I was talking about and it was tough for him to swallow; I'll follow up with him when I can. I had to let them know there are acceptable behaviors and there are behaviors that lead to trouble and to watch out for those.

It's so hard being a parent in the best of circumstances, but this...this is no joke. BTW you handled your DS9 in an exemplary way - good for you and good for him. He's lucky to have you Scotty.

~opt
Posted By: Scotland Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/03/10 04:00 AM
Thanx Opt. I am also lucky to have him. My kiddos are the best. It's wayturds that sucks azz. laugh
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/03/10 11:53 AM
@Limbo and Linus - thanks guys. I plan to attend Easter dinner for the kids and the family. I can swallow my pain of seeing ww for a time for them as divorce is very much a loss for the other members of the family as well (from my reading). It's the death of a relationship and they deserve to share in that with me.

I will probably leave conspicuously early so they can feel my absence, in hopes that ww recognizes some of the pain she has caused to so many.

@Not - I know you're upset and I appreciate your feelings. I believe ww prides herself in her defiance and her ability to be defiant. This she stated recently has been part of her character since she was a little girl. Defiance and independence. Fierce independence she views as a good thing. I say interdependence is much more healthy but that's a discussion for another day. Anyway, point is that I believe she feels exerting her independence is some sort of show of strength in the community. She doesn't realize the community will simply view her as a two-bit skank.

~opt
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/03/10 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
I know I should have checked in here first, but at 4am last night I couldn't help myself any longer.
I wrote this email to coffee-shop Scumeo. (if you recall it was actually coffee in his home, but I like the nick name):

You really should end your relationship with my wife at least until the divorce is final. I hate to have to point this out to you but by carrying on during the separation you are doing nothing but contributing to her image as a slut. You know as well as I do that in this town, perception is reality.

Notwithstanding the incredible disrespect you obviously have for me, my wife, and yourself, my children do not deserve to grow up in a town where everyone believes their mother is an adultere
r.


And this to my ww:
I can�t stop you from spitting on our marriage and defiling your own reputation. I can�t stop you from hurting me by continuing to develop �friendships� with single men while you are still married to me. I can only ask that you have some respect for your children and stop giving people in this town fuel for the rumors that you are a slut. S13 and D8 don�t deserve that.

Any man that would put you in the position to gain a reputation like you are gaining is not your �friend.� He is a predator with one thing on his mind
.



Okay, get out your 2x4's!!
pray

~opt

ps: Actually, LBer check tells me there may be no need for 2x4's- just stating facts and feelings. (maybe a little DJ at the end...)

No 2X4 from me, opt. How about a hug and an 'atta boy!' instead. Both emails are great grin Bet it felt good to write them! You did click the 'send' button, right?

Glad you're going to be with the kids for at least a part of Easter.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/03/10 05:01 PM
Thanks Linus, I appreciate your thoughts.

Quote
You did click the 'send' button, right?

Yup, and got returns from both of them. It seems as though they've talked athough it's hard to tell. Coffee boy is, as expected, giving me a lesson in how I'm "angry and looking to blame someone for my misfortune." That's in the adultery hand-book right?

WW of course defends her "friendship" and even states "Ending a friendship with him would hurt the children more than anything else." puke
I should put that in the fog-babble post I saw a couple days ago.

Anyway. I'll follow up with them both and try to stick with the facts: my concern is for the perception they are cultivating with the community and how it will AFFECT MY CHILDREN. There's not much more I can do. I'm not going to get into a pi$$ing match with either one of them.

Linus, you still logging in some UA time with Mrs. L???

~opt


Posted By: ToBeContinued Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/03/10 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
I'm not going to get into a pi$$ing match with either one of them.

Hey Opt,

IMHO, this is EXACTLY what you are doing. With BOTH of them.....

What do YOU control? HER behavior? No. You don't. HIS behavior? No. You don't.

You are concerned about the well-being of your kids. As you should be. Then make YOUR relationship with them as strong as it can be -- given the current lay of the land between you and WW.

Opt, from my vantage way up here in the cheap seats, I'm thinking you need to really try to get out of her world - who's hanging pictures for her, where she goes, what shoes she's wearing with which dress, etc.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but if you think she will take care of the kids on her watch AND you think you have a good enough relationship with your kids that they would tell YOU if something was not right, then you need to put your trust and your faith in those two mindsets.

I guess I just sense a degree of involvement that is potentially damaging to you and your ability to rebuild your own life.....

TB
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/03/10 06:44 PM
BT, thanks for offering a different perspective.

I will be in 100% agreement with you when we are actually divorced. For now, I believe ww is teaching the kids the wrong lesson by developing friendships with single men while she is still married and in full view of the watchful eyes of a community.

Yes it hurts my feelings that she is so cavalier about the marriage. And yes that's now my problem. But golly, we were separated exactly ONE DAY. My feelings are only part of the issue, however.

Quote
I guess I just sense a degree of involvement that is potentially damaging to you and your ability to rebuild your own life.....
Totally right, BT. I really feel that it was important for me to bring up this one issue before going any further with self-recovery. Hopefully it will be the last "last" issue - that's why I'm here, for the reality checks. I can see I'm going to need the support of folks here more than I thought as I move forward.

I've said my piece. I've made my point with both of them. I feel like I've done what I could in that arena to protect my kids.

Quote
Maybe I'm wrong here, but if you think she will take care of the kids on her watch AND you think you have a good enough relationship with your kids that they would tell YOU if something was not right, then you need to put your trust and your faith in those two mindsets.
No, you're right, at this point it's all about cultivating my relationship with the kids. I will end my efforts to control the behavior of others.

~opt
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/03/10 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by BTinBL
I guess I just sense a degree of involvement that is potentially damaging to you and your ability to rebuild your own life.....

TB
TB makes a good point, opt. I can understand why you sent the emails and still think it was good that you did (now I'll get some 2X4s for sure), but being a BS I can understand the emotion.

That being said, I think the point has been made to WW and POSOM and it's probably time to 'go dark'. A question, though - maybe I missed this - has POSOM been exposed? Have his 'friends', co-workers, etc. been notified that he played a part in busting up your family? If not, it may be too late anyway.

To answer your question about me and Mrs. Linus spending quality time together, the answer unfortunately is not nearly enough. This is my main concern, and she's aware of it. She just doesn't seem as concerned about it as I am, probably because she's not 'into' MB. Still, we're doing well. I just keep reminding myself that it's only been a few months since we really started R, and it's a long, long run. Thanks for the concern.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/03/10 10:47 PM
Hi Optimism, and Larry as well,

I just wanted to specifically wish you both a very Happy Easter. I know that may sound shallow because I have not been on here that long, but but the two of you along with Turtlehead and a few others have helped me more than you and they probably know, in helping me become more objective than dissollusioned and ranting, and also simply to take more objective measures despite the unknown.

Optimism, plese know that you are included in my prayers. I have read all of your story now. Yes Easter dinner may look like a tough time but try to enjoy yourself, your kids, your family, and yes even your WW. I hope that she can put aside for at least a day her lack of self-respect to honor those who have been and still are and most certainly are important in her life.

By the way, C is able now to stand up for herself alot more now that the family has complained to the admin. staff there about what has been going on. Her counselor even brougth a TV to her room for her (the one we gave to her in Jan. was stolen from her room in Feb. when I had her here). And I get weekly reports now from the head nurse there regarding her medication and her outings and also how she is doing walking (last Monday she really had trouble walking, but I took her on three walks, and she has been walking twice a day since then).

The lower-class idiot (best I can describe now) still goes there once a week to visit people he knows there, but Char is alerted and she now goes to her room at that time.

Anyway, Optimism, peace be with you and Larry ..and for the matter all here...now and for always.

Tom

Posted By: Scotland Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/03/10 11:18 PM
Opt- When I read what you wrote I understood. I din't agree with you doing it because I simply see it as a waste of time and energy on your part. Have you exposed your WW and POSOM to your children yet? It really is a lot easier to explain to them your feelings when they know what you are dealing with. My WH lives with POSOW and he introduced DSx2 to her on CHRISTMAS DAY. They like POSOW and her DD11. They are allowed to like her if they choose. I can't stop them or tell them that their feelings are bad. I have told them who she is and that POSOW and Daddy are making a bad mistake. We raise our children to be independent thinkers and picking if they like or dislike someone is their decision. Just teach your kids right from wrong and don't expect your WW to teach them that right now.

I know it hurts. IT KILLS. I wish I could stop it but I can't and neither can you.

As TB said, take care of the weeds on YOUR side of the fence(kind of a paraphrase).
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/04/10 11:15 PM
Opt- I can understand why you sent the emails too. Looks like you let your 'taker' out of his cage there. Are you sure your Plan B would jeopardize your financial arrangement? I think a Plan B would do you good.

I really liked TB's philosophy too but I also know how hard it is to not keep peeking over that fence.

That said, what's done is done. Did she or POSOM reply to your messages?
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/05/10 01:38 AM
Happy Easter Everyone. Thanks so much for your concern and thoughts, prayers, sentiments, and guidance. You all mean so much to me.

@Linus and Scot: I have not "exposed" coffee-boy/picture hanger. I have read that Dr. Harley does not recommend that unless there is indisputable proof of foul-play. My problem with WW's relationship with this one is as much a matter of how it brings back the pain of the real/undeniable adulterous EA that started this whole mess. I feel there is an incredible insensitivity on the part of my WW and C-B to carry on their "friendship" in the current climate. I also was really feeling that she is putting her reputation at risk by inviting single men (whatever the true nature of the relationship) literally one day after separation; as my sister stated tonight - "you were probably overreacting." It's over now - results below.

@Tom: We did enjoy Easter. With her family like old times. Everyone was very respectful of the situation and I think it meant a lot for the kids to see us together and supporting each other. I agreed to drive when my son expressed he would like that.

@Limbo: I really feel like my tone may have been harsh, but I sent the right message. It opened up a dialogue with WW that I'll illustrate below. Also yes I did get a response from C-B which allowed me a spring board for expressing some more of my position and sentiments. He is a moron and I'm sure as Scot says it was probably a waste of time. But, I also think I deserve to have my feelings known - he's had his hands in my marriage for months on one level or another; this was my turn. From his response it was pretty clear that he thinks of my wife as more than a friend. People just don't so fiercely defend their relationship with other people's wives if they don't have more serious intentions (even if long term). Conjecture maybe, but no matter. I said what I wanted to say, now I let the chips fall where they may.

Here's where MB and everyone's care and assistance has PAID OFF:
Finally Saturday night (after a tremendous amount of tension between me and WW for a couple days) we had a very serious talk. Started out with a lot of foggy babble, blame shifting, and justifications from WW. Ultimately, however, with a lot of patience and listening and no AO's/DJ's and some re-directing I was able to get something that very few BS's ever get: A sincere apology. I actually heard my WW state with genuine feeling "What I did with OM#1 was wrong." And "I'm sorry for the pain I caused you."

I can't explain it but it really meant a lot to me. I feel hearing her say those words with meaning jumped me forward in my recovery process.

I also feel that it was extremely important to her recovery process. If I can help her learn something from this whole disaster, she will be a better person and a better Mother to my children; I would consider that no small victory.

WW was falling apart when I dropped the kids off this evening. She misses her house, misses me, and feels bad about my son not being around to watch the RedSox with me, etc, etc. Reality is setting in. Sad to see, but I was supportive without mitigating the pain she's feeling too much. I encouraged her to seek help from the right people (implication being: NOT single men).


Thanks again to everyone. It's my first night alone tonight. Knowing you're all "there" for me in spirit is extremely comforting.

~opt
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/05/10 01:00 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
I can't explain it but it really meant a lot to me. I feel hearing her say those words with meaning jumped me forward in my recovery process.
I know where you're coming from, my friend. I remember how I felt when Mrs. Linus finally said how sorry she was. It was like a huge weight being lifted. As you say, it's tough to explain. I'm sure all BSs know how it is, though. I'm glad for you that she took that step.

Originally Posted by optimism
Thanks again to everyone. It's my first night alone tonight. Knowing you're all "there" for me in spirit is extremely comforting.
At least you got to watch the Sox come back against the Evil Empire!!! I feel bad - I fell asleep when it was 5-1, and got a nice surprise when I checked the score this morning. Wish I had made a couple more innings, but it's tough to get old.
Posted By: ToBeContinued Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/05/10 03:13 PM
Sorry, T/J Alert!!

Opt, why in the heck do they cart out Neil Diamond, for the 7th inning stretch, to sing, 'Sweet Caroline', or whatever the heck it was???? I saw that during last night's game -- which was a great one, by the way....

What did they start puttin' in the Kool Aid at the 'Red Sox Nation' tailgate parties????

Okay, end of T/J. Sorry about that........

TB

Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/05/10 04:13 PM
Opt,
You won't get any 2x4's from me about the emails..... Yep, a BIG ol' waste of YOUR time, but live and learn.
Quote
I believe ww prides herself in her defiance and her ability to be defiant. This she stated recently has been part of her character since she was a little girl.
its time she grows up........ HOWEVER, that isnt going to happen if you continuously play her counselor/ teacher/conscious. It's not your job, never was. I know you are concerned for you kids, but if you are that concerned then you need to go for FULL CUSTODY. You have been trying to educate her for months now and it isn't working, know why? Because you haven't let her experience the full consequences of her actions. day.
Quote
She doesn't realize the community will simply view her as a two-bit
Yes she does, but she doesn't CARE. Because If she DID care, she wouldn't have had Scumeo come over.

Opt.....GET OUT of the WAY. You have enough on your plate in trying to heal YOU.......you have picked up the pieces of her life throughout your marriage, now the marriage is over. That means you need to give YOURSELF permission to let her fail......and MAYBE once she does that THEN she can maybe do the hard work of growing up........

Not2fun

~opt [/quote]
Posted By: ToBeContinued Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/05/10 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by not2fun
Opt.....GET OUT of the WAY. You have enough on your plate in trying to heal YOU.......you have picked up the pieces of her life throughout your marriage, now the marriage is over. That means you need to give YOURSELF permission to let her fail......and MAYBE once she does that THEN she can maybe do the hard work of growing up........

Opt, I totally agree with N2F here........

Take care of yourself and do your best to support your kids. It's time to sit back and let W ride the bike without the training wheels. She WANTS TO. And if she doesn't want to wear a helmet while doing it, that is HER DECISION.......

TB
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/05/10 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by BTinBL
Take care of yourself and do your best to support your kids. It's time to sit back and let W ride the bike without the training wheels. She WANTS TO. And if she doesn't want to wear a helmet while doing it, that is HER DECISION.......

TB
Well put. Crash and burn, comin' right up!
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/05/10 11:38 PM
Originally Posted by BTinBL
Sorry, T/J Alert!!

Opt, why in the heck do they cart out Neil Diamond, for the 7th inning stretch, to sing, 'Sweet Caroline', or whatever the heck it was???? I saw that during last night's game -- which was a great one, by the way....
Hey no problem on the tj. I guess it's some sort of tradition to sing Sweet Caroline in the seventh inning at Fenway. No idea when it started; not a long time Bostonian or anything and really never got into baseball until my kid became a LL pitcher. Personally Niel Diamond's voice literally turns my stomach. I think I must have heard that song when I was child and had the flu or something, it's to the point of being a family joke.

Did you see the large mouth bass singing GBA? (and of course her Father, Steven Tyler...)

Great game. They're going all the way. smile

~opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/05/10 11:50 PM
Quote
Opt.....GET OUT of the WAY.

Once again you've given me a lot to think about Not2Fun. I'm going to try, you know I will.

Quote
You have enough on your plate in trying to heal YOU.......you have picked up the pieces of her life throughout your marriage, now the marriage is over. That means you need to give YOURSELF permission to let her fail......and MAYBE once she does that THEN she can maybe do the hard work of growing up........

Okay, I'm posting that on my wall.
I suppose due to my own weaknesses, I've enabled her dysfunction (by not speaking up, not being totally honest, not pursuing my own needs, etc); this is also my chance to experience the full impact of my own behaviors.

thanks N2Fun.

~optimism
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/06/10 04:37 AM
I still think a Plan B of some sort would help. What about establishing new boundaries at the least?
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/06/10 05:56 AM
Originally Posted by SickofLimbo
I still think a Plan B of some sort would help. What about establishing new boundaries at the least?

You're right SoL. However, I really want to get the court date behind me before I change my approach too much.

I'm not writhing in pain like I was before, and in the big picture, I really don't have much to complain about...or protect myself from at this point. The advice I've gotten here has helped me look at this whole thing in such a way that I don't feel Plan B is necessary at this point for my own sanity (like it is in many cases) - make sense? It's late.

As for new boundaries. They are established. The hump I just went over with picture hanger I think was the last hurdle in my being concerned about her activities & exploits. I've resolved to converse with her strictly about childcare issues and logistics. I don't think that excludes listening if she wants to talk to me about where she's at emotionally, but I'm not going to let it affect me emotionally. I'm not talking about being her shrink either, just a pair of ears.

I'll update about how that's going, but right now that's my plan.

~opt
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/06/10 11:47 AM
Originally Posted by optimism
The advice I've gotten here has helped me look at this whole thing in such a way that I don'tfeel Plan B is necessary at this point for my own sanity (like it is in many cases) - make sense? It's late.
No, it doesn't make sense......and IF you could see what WE see, you would know that your sanity IS at stake. Opt, you are flying from one end of the spectrum to the other. Stop letting your feelings rule your decsions and let common sense do it......(I know I'm being hard BUT dangit....... grin....I already know the next chapter if you continue doing this....)


Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/06/10 12:00 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
I've resolved to converse with her strictly about childcare issues and logistics.
This staement is in direct conflict with......
Quote
I don't think that excludes listening if she wants to talk to me about where she's at emotionally, but I'm not going to let it affect me emotionally. I'm not talking about being her shrink either, just a pair of ears.

this.....

Which is it gonna be??? crazy.... Because you can't do both!!!

If she wants to talk she can go elsewhere to do it. Yeah she will probably get bad advice but ULTIMATELY her decisions about her life are hers to own. By being her dumping ground all you will do is allow HER to mess up your own moral meter.......and keep yourself wallowing in her toxic sewage.....YUCK!!!!

For your own self-respect and the respect of your children (because when the become adults and can look back and see the big picture, their respect for you WILL deminish.... BTDT), STEP AWAY......

Not2fun
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/07/10 03:20 AM
Quote
their respect for you WILL deminish....
I don't doubt you a bit;

I've thought a lot about what you are saying and I can totally see your point.

Can you give me some pointers on how to transition into a 'darkness' ? Plan B letter? Explanation of my position? How do I explain it to the kids (as it is they wanted to invite Mom over for dinner on Thursday, my night - I literally didn't answer but plan to let them know somehow that we can't be doing that).

~opt

My floors look great, I plan to paint the baseboards next week. And I have dinners planned for the kids each night this week. I'm taking work more seriously and I played pool tonight. I'm going to be okay. At the same time I have a lot of healing to do...
Posted By: Scotland Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/07/10 03:29 AM
Okay. Why don't YOU want to do Plan B? What are the reasons? IF you were telling a newbie about MB when would you tell them they should go into plan B? Just curious.
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/07/10 04:37 AM
I understand completely on wanting to maintain the course. You know yourself better than anyone else.
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/07/10 12:48 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
My floors look great, I plan to paint the baseboards next week. And I have dinners planned for the kids each night this week. I'm taking work more seriously and I played pool tonight. I'm going to be okay. At the same time I have a lot of healing to do...
Damn right you're going to be okay.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/07/10 11:22 PM
Hi Opt,

I am privileged to post to you for the first time, and I have read your story now.

First, thank you for Your encouragement.

Maybe you did encourage (instead of the usual trite phrase .. enable her behavior), but Opt, from what I have read of your story, she made her decisions, bad ones at that, and no one is responsible morally for the other. We are responsible for our partners legally and socially, but morally, NO.

I have an advantage over you. I can go to confession on Sat., and if I am truely remoursful, I know that at least God had forgiven me for whatever laxness I had for me or with my wife. I honestly feel tho that I do not have to beg her for forgiveness for how I reacted regarding her affiar, I have to at least apologise for my reaction to that, period. And I have to at least listen to her in regard to her complaints about me.

Optimism, I certainly am not in a position to at all give you advice, but only encouragement. I firmly belive tho, that no one, in their right mind, unless there was abuse or criminal behaviour, would want to leave even an imperfect marriage, where there is a chance of helping and supporting the one they vowed to love. It happens tho, mostly frivolously, but for most common peons like me, trying to save a marriage is so worth the fight.

As far as your feeling of a Pan B, I would so do that, and even tho most of the Harly vets here may disagree with me, I would do it suddenly, the same as I will post on here a little later as far as what I am going to do with Char. I think what Harly is advising OPt is the 'Blitzkrieg" effect regarding a Plan B. Most people, esp a loved one, would go into shock realizing that they have been countered, and are now cut off. It's the shock effect that I believe, as much as the old 'shock therapy', that can hopefuly snap a loved one out of their delerium to face reality.

Anyway Opt thank you and I am going to post my own stuf later. I just re-empathize that You are being remembered in my most sacrad prayer..the divine mercy prayer.


Peace,

Tom





Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/08/10 02:44 AM
Thanks for the prayers Tom. I'll take all the help I can get.

Funny story about confession: when, through MB and good folks here, I started coming to terms with the negative impact that my previous adultery had been having on my marriage all these years, of course I went to the priest pretty much right off. I told him everything. Then I did an exposure on myself to all those who I had exposed my wife's affair to (it was a craaaaazy week!). Of course I told my wife about my affairs just after telling my exposure targets. Then I went back to the priest. I told him I told my wife. He got a little upset with me then. He said "I wish you hadn't done that- God has already forgiven you through our conversation; by going to her, you were demonstrating lack of faith in His strength and power to forgive." Of course I don't regret disclosing the truth about me to my wife, she certainly deserves to know (from a worldly perspective), but it was an interesting conversation and one that inspired me in other ways.

Well, interesting story anyways, I hope.

~opt
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/08/10 03:57 AM
That is an interesting story. It really shows your strong character. I'm not sure why the priest was upset about telling your wife. Maybe he thought it was done out of the need for her forgiveness (which you got from God) instead of the need of openness and honesty in your marriage.

I'm impressed by the strength of your moral convictions. You have said this to me I think but I need to say it to you.....You have done so much good and put up with so much heartache, good things are bound to happen to you.

Well, something like that anyway.
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/08/10 01:04 PM
I'm not sure why the priest had that reaction either. I would have thought that as part of the forgiveness - a precondition, so to speak, - he would have asked you to come clean with your wife.
Oh well.
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/10/10 04:43 PM
How ya' doing, opt?
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/10/10 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
Can you give me some pointers on how to transition into a 'darkness' ? Plan B letter? Explanation of my position?

I don't think a Plan B letter is necessary.

See Opt, you aren't going into a "Plan B". That's a tool used for affairs and difficult marital situations. While Dr. H has stated many times that if Joyce were to have an affair, he would never speak or see her again.

I always wondered about that. I mean, does that mean he wouldn't have gone to his children's weddings?....Miss out on his grandchildren's birthday's?....How does one divorce and never have anything to do with the spouse, when children are involved???

Well, I think that each person it is different. I know for me, I would not have anything to do with my H. You want to know why?....because I believe in Dr. H's Love Bank theory. And since I do, that means my H would ALWAYS have an account. I if I were to ever divorce him, I would HAVE to stay away in order to keep that account below the threshold......and from what YOU write, I see that need for you as well.

Even though your WW has done some awful things to you, it is very evident that you still love her.....and so the FASTEST and EASIEST way to fall out of love with her, is to stay away from her......kwim???

If I were you, I would limit myself in my access to her. I would not be having listening to her go on about "how-hard-this-is-for-me/boohoo-is-me" bullcrap, I wouldn not be her friend, I would be nothing.

I don't have a lot of faith in this newfound pyscho-babble of "Co-Parenting"......While I COMPLETELY understand the effects of divorce on children and how devastating it is, it does not diminish the pain of a BS. Nor should a BS just swallow their pride and humanity in order to get along with the person who caused them the greatest pain in their lives.....I just don't believe in it......

So, I would stop listening to her when she wants to talk. If she starts any of that crap I would politely tell her No and walk away. After enough times of this, she should hopefully get the picture........I would not invite her over for family dinners, outtings, or get-togethers. It sends her (and the kids....) the wrong message.

As far as your kids, you should be upfront and honest with them. They can handle the truth. However, it would be wrong to lead them on with false hope by doing things with your STBXWW.

Quote
My floors look great, I plan to paint the baseboards next week. And I have dinners planned for the kids each night this week. I'm taking work more seriously and I played pool tonight.

hurray hurray hurray

Good for you Opt. It is VERY necessary to keep yourself BUSY BUSY BUSY!!!!!! I'm quite proud of you......I would give ya some other things, but seeing that you are a guy...well, I just find it easier to this for the women..... grin


Quote
I'm going to be okay. At the same time I have a lot of healing to do...


ABSO-FREAKIN-LUTELY!!!!!

You're gonna be just fine....... hug

not2fun

Posted By: ToBeContinued Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/10/10 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by not2fun
[quote=optimism]
I don't have a lot of faith in this newfound pyscho-babble of "Co-Parenting"......While I COMPLETELY understand the effects of divorce on children and how devastating it is, it does not diminish the pain of a BS. Nor should a BS just swallow their pride and humanity in order to get along with the person who caused them the greatest pain in their lives.....I just don't believe in it......

Excellent commentary by N2F. This particular narrative jumped out at me as being particularly poignant.

TB
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/10/10 06:47 PM
Also, opt, check out our friend Limbo's reply to Pinky when she made the comment that they 'would still be family' after the D. His response is awesome, and right on the mark.

Hope all is okay with you, buddy.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/10/10 07:54 PM
Hi Opt.,

That is both funny and amazing... about the priest *s*.

I went to confession this morning, and I laid it out and feel peaceful and good. It used to be that you got either 2 'our father's or 35 of them along with several 'hail mary's' depending. And, depending on the amount of pennance you would walk out of there and and then judge yourself as to how really bad you are or that maybe you are not so bad - in the eyes of others. Today, and thankfully, it is not that way. I believe at least in my faith that priests are just a conduit, and don't insert their own human filters. I think they realize now that this is just a scarament of the relationship between God and the individual, and only advise true remourse, and going to the individual you need to forgive or get forgiveness from, and yea confess to that person, and try to reconcile. So Opt., today I got 2 'our fathers'.

Tom





Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/12/10 02:36 AM
I'm a little overwhelmed to try and answer all those posts - thanks to everyone for your comments. I'll try to get more specific when I have more time. Now, things are rolling along toward D, with me of course analyzing everything.

Just quickly, some above seemed confused about the priests reaction to my self-exposure of my affair to my ww at the time. No comment, except: we all have to remember that (I think) exposure is pretty unique to MB/Harvey. As is this whole way of looking at adultery. Try and find a "marriage counselor" that knows what to do with adultery. Anyway, I don't think priests are anymore educated in MB ways than any other faction of society.

~optimism out
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/12/10 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by optimism
Anyway, I don't think priests are anymore educated in MB ways than any other faction of society.

I agree with you there my friend.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/19/10 02:29 AM
Not, I wanted to address a couple things you said. Everyone has been so thoughtful and supportive and I appreciate it.


Quote
Well, I think that each person it is different. I know for me, I would not have anything to do with my H. You want to know why?....because I believe in Dr. H's Love Bank theory. And since I do, that means my H would ALWAYS have an account. I if I were to ever divorce him, I would HAVE to stay away in order to keep that account below the threshold......and from what YOU write, I see that need for you as well.

Even though your WW has done some awful things to you, it is very evident that you still love her.....and so the FASTEST and EASIEST way to fall out of love with her, is to stay away from her......kwim???

If I were you, I would limit myself in my access to her. I would not be having listening to her go on about "how-hard-this-is-for-me/boohoo-is-me" bullcrap, I wouldn not be her friend, I would be nothing.

This may be as hard to understand as it is embarrassing for me to write, but I really don't think there's a chance she could get my $LB over the "threshold." We had a very caring love, but not a romantic one. Sad, but true. I never really understood the concept until MB, and Steve hitting me with it like a 2x4 in one of our conversations. So, I care for her as a human, and the mother of my kids, but you all have also helped me see that I can no longer be the crutch for her emotionally. That well has run dry and she will either find another, or grow up ~ as George Thorogood would say "that don't confront me" anymore.

Quote
So, I would stop listening to her when she wants to talk. If she starts any of that crap I would politely tell her No and walk away. After enough times of this, she should hopefully get the picture........I would not invite her over for family dinners, outtings, or get-togethers. It sends her (and the kids....) the wrong message.

As far as your kids, you should be upfront and honest with them. They can handle the truth. However, it would be wrong to lead them on with false hope by doing things with your STBXWW.

Yes. This is right. I may not get to exactly this spot overnight, but it will be soon. I'm still trying to be somewhat tactful, subtle, graceful, until the court date - for financial reasons I've illustrated before. I'll have plenty of time to recover after that.




*** I was talking to my Mother earlier this evening and let it slip that "I'm surprised I stayed with her as long as I did" (recounting some of my EN's that were unmet for so long) and she, in a rare moment of total disclosure quipped "I can't either." shocked What is it about Moms?

opt


Sidenote: A co-worker just had a DDay with a 3 year relationship. Not a marriage, but somewhat committed. With knowledge gained here, I have been able to help her see the experience from a different perspective, when she was totally lost. [no worries- I'm keeping my emotional distance as well...]
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - 2x4 needed! - 04/19/10 10:11 PM
AHHH, somebody whack me with a 2x4!~!

I called D8 to see if she wanted to hang out (not my night, but she had called earlier saying she missed me). Guess who she was with? Yup, POM#2 and mom and brother and POM#2's kids (date bait, I call them).

I KNOW I've already said everything I can about this situation. I KNOW I shouldn't let it bother me and that ww has to make her own choices. In fact, I don't even want to be married to her, so I KNOW I shouldn't even care.

BUT... I just find it so disrespectful that she is hanging out having a good time for herself with single men (even if there's obviously no overt activity, etc. etc.). While I'm towing the line, feeling like a cheat for even smiling at a woman in the grocery store.

Maybe it's payback from the Great Adultery Gods for all the times I was acting waywardly, even in the absence of affairs (I'm thinking I've already paid up for the actual affairs I committed). A little straggling justice, if you will...


Well, I had to vent here because it would be totally undignified to mention a breath of it to ww. She doesn't deserve to know that her actions so much as cause me to raise an eyebrow.

~opt



Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/20/10 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
This may be as hard to understand as it is embarrassing for me to write, but I really don't think there's a chance she could get my $LB over the "threshold."
It's not a chance *I* would take.........but that's me..... grin
Quote
What is it about Moms?
We ROCK!!!!!
Quote
: A co-worker just had a DDay with a 3 year relationship. Not a marriage, but somewhat committed. With knowledge gained here, I have been able to help her see the experience from a different perspective, when she was totally lost. [no worries- I'm keeping my emotional distance as well...]

I STRONGLY urge you to disengage from this woman. This is PRECISELY how BS find themselves ensnared in their own affairs......(this happened to SMB........it was an awful turn of events in her sitch)...... You have no business getting entangled, so get OUT....
Don't make me come there and beat ya senseless...... twoxfour

Not2fun
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/21/10 02:03 AM
Thanks Not. I thought you would say that about the co-worker. I hear you loud and clear. I don't fish off the company pier anyway (learned that lesson once, maybe twice...), but you're message well received.

Had another rough day thinking of ww and om enjoying a nice family lunch together with all the kids at Buffalo Creek after shopping at the mall. He'll be a nice replacement for me - on disability, 15 years older, and about to lose his house to foreclosure. But he knows how to scoop a married woman!!!

~opt
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/21/10 03:05 AM
{{{{Opt}}},

I'm sorry this has ya down.... It's gotta be so hard.

So how's the romodeling coming along?

What color did you go with on the master bedroom?.....Purple Passion?....Fiesty Fushia?.....I know....I bet it was Orgasmic Orange....... rotflmao

not2fun
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/21/10 11:26 AM
lol not2Funnnnn, you always know just what to say! (and thanks for the hugs).

Still working on renovating my mind, mostly. And doing some work in the kitchen.

All in due time, all in due time.

opt
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/21/10 11:19 PM
Just checking in to say hello, Opt. Not much time lately. My own sitch is chaotic (isn't there anything else with waywards?) but I'm still following yours. Seems like you're doing ok, considering everything. Hang in there, buddy.

PS - what the heck is up with the Sox????
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/21/10 11:55 PM
I know at this point I might be asking this on the wrong board as I'm NOT working to save my marriage anymore. Maybe I'm way out of MB territory, but I am trying to save some dignity from the ravages of adultery...

After this last round with ww having what was essentially a date on Monday after I made it clear in writing that I would not continue to be friends with someone who had no respect for me, I am trying to cut all ties except where they directly relate to the kids.

It's just too painful to know they are continuing to develop their relationship while we are still officially and legally married. I also feel strongly that she is deeply hurting the kids perception of what a relationship is supposed to be.

Yesterday I avoided eye contact when she dropped the kids and signed a tax form.
For today, I have stopped responding to the calls, don't listen to the messages and got one text "what did I do?"

How do I let her know I simply can't engage in idle chit-chat anymore and that it's too painful to be her "friend" given the utter lack of respect she has for me? In other words, how do I say "I can't talk to you anymore" without talking to her? Of course she's going to want an explanation (and engage in a conversation ultimately designed to influence my decision - 15 year history with that one). E-mail? Modified Plan B letter?

Thanks for any guidance.

opt
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/22/10 12:53 AM
Opt,

you know what I am about to say, right???..... wink

yep, I say go the Plan B letter..... If you go back into the forums menu (I'd give ya a link, nut can't from my phone....), at the top you'll see a Notable Posts forum. It contains a bunch of great links. Go to the Plan B section and there's a link for Plan B letters.....by Spacecase. It has a bunch of different letters for all kinds of situations. Hopefully you'll find an example.....

For now I would Put her on ignore.....

Not2fun
Posted By: Scotland Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/22/10 01:56 AM
Ummmm......all I thought reading this was PLAN B

Not modified, not half-azzed, a full on Plan B. laugh You asked laugh
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/22/10 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by optimism
How do I let her know I simply can't engage in idle chit-chat anymore and that it's too painful to be her "friend" given the utter lack of respect she has for me? In other words, how do I say "I can't talk to you anymore" without talking to her?

I'm with them Opt. Full-on Plan B with the letter. Do it for YOU.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/22/10 09:49 AM
alright. thanks guys.
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/22/10 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Ummmm......all I thought reading this was PLAN B

Not modified, not half-azzed, a full on Plan B. laugh You asked laugh

Spoken like a true Plan B'er Scottie....... wink

I really HATE seeing you go through this Opt.....

Not2fun
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN D - 04/22/10 04:08 PM
Quote
I really HATE seeing you go through this Opt.....

Yeah, well, thanks. It's not too fun.

But it's another lesson in life; a part of the journey I can't avoid anymore. I'm 41 and have yet to learn how to set limits and stand up for myself. Allowing blind trust to prevail has been my path of least resistance and has led me to where I am.
I need to set a good example for my kids while I still have a chance.

I'll run my letter up here tonight before dropping it off at the condo tomorrow. I started it this am.

opt

Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 04/22/10 09:18 PM
Well, here goes. Open to all of your suggestions. Remember, this is not a typical plan B situation. I'm not necessarily trying to save the M, only trying to save myself some further anguish and start healing from the EA which lead to separation (current situation).


Dear ww,

I am sorry it has come to this and it with regret that I write this letter. What follows is an effort to preserve my sanity, self-respect, and dignity. It is not written out of malice or misunderstanding of our situation. It is not an attempt to punish you for anything you�ve done. It is not with an ounce of anger that I present this.

First I would like to, once again, say how sorry I am that we find ourselves divorcing after so many years together. I wish I had done many things differently and not helped create an environment in which made your affair possible. I take full responsibility for my role in that. I failed to see your unhappiness. I did not make you a priority. I allowed resentment to affect my approach to our marriage, instead of addressing it directly and working through it with you. For this I will be forever regretful.

We are two very special people, ww, and I believe we could ulitmately conquer any problem if we worked together. We have endured issues that would have destroyed many marriages long ago. There is still a part of me, however small, that believes we could reverse this process of divorce. Unfortunately, those positive feelings are eroding very quickly now. I feel I must take steps to ensure that they not disappear altogether and destroy our chances to be, at the very least, supportive & cooperative parents to our children, possibly even �friends.�

I would very much like for us to continue to be cooperative together now; setting a good example of a marital relationship for our children. Showing them that two people can respect each other even in the face of an impending divorce. Demonstrating that marriage is a sacred institution regardless of the circumstances. I simply cannot endure the pain of our relationship while you continue to build a relationship with another man. It is too painful to know that someone else is more important than me, even though I am the one with your wedding ring on my finger.

Therefore, until we are officially divorced, I feel I must break off all contact with you. I will avoid seeing you or talking to you or communicating with you in any way. I must ask that you not have contact with me during pick-up or drop-off times. I would also like any of the regular communications between us to be handled through IM's. If you have an urgent matter relating to your health or the safety of the kids, you can call my cell phone, otherwise I am asking that you refrain from calling me or leaving me messages; I will not listen to them.

Please respect my decision to separate from you in this way. Your infidelity has crushed my spirit and I am very fragile emotionally right now. To heal, I feel it is important to restrict my contact with the person who has delivered so much pain to me and continues to do so, even if without malicious intent. I feel your relationship with OM#2, and disregard for my feelings, is poisoning whatever chance their might be for us to reconcile, or even to remain respectful partners in parenting our children. Furthermore, I feel that by placing your confidence in one while you are married to another, the wrong message is being sent to our children about marriage and how two people work together to get through tough times; I would not be the parent I strive to be by taking a passive stance to this. To stand by would be to be complicate in something that I believe to be wrong.

ww, I�m sorry our marriage failed. I�m sorry the best we could do for each other was to be good friends and good parents. I was truly hoping we could separate and move through the divorce process as partners, respectful of each other�s positions and feelings. Your relationship with POM#2, which is obviously of the utmost importance to you and has been for many months, is more than my heart can bear to witness.

optimism

Posted By: Scotland Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 04/23/10 01:23 AM
Bumping for Opt to get some GREAT advice on edits smile
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 04/23/10 01:32 AM
Opt, I think it is an excellent first draft. I really like the positiveness of the working together part

"We are two very special people, ww, and I believe we could ulitmately conquer any problem if we worked together. We have endured issues that would have destroyed many marriages long ago."

I'm not so sure I like the last paragraph, but I am nowhere close to being qualified to comment on Plan B. I can't wait to see some good suggestions from the experts here.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 04/23/10 09:21 PM
Well, I couldn't wait anymore for suggestions - My fault. I put myself in a bit of a hurry by essentially starting "plan B" before I wrote the letter. I understand the principles of MB for the most part, but when it comes to implementing them in my own situation, I screw it up.

I added this: "I feel that allowing you to callously disregard my feelings would be to teach my children the wrong message about what is acceptable in a relationship." in the long paragraph.


Anyway, I had to send it b/c S13 is with ww today and they will eventually get around to discussing what I told him last night: "I can't continue to talk to Mom while she is developing a relationship with another man, that my heart was in too much pain and it hurt too much to see her and talk to her" (of course she (and om) have put such a spin on the sitch that I feel like a fool when he says "no they're not" but I explained that I see things differently.) I have avoided her since Tuesday and she knows something's up; we've gone through this before with me not communicating and she usually just talks me off the ledge and gets me to cave in, and ultimately carries on in whatever way she wants. I really don't want it to be like that again. Not sure I have the strength. Frankly I felt to continue to just not talk to her without some explanation would be disrespectful to her and I don't want to stoop to that level.

It's not a perfect letter. I'm sure there are DJ's that I don't even see. But I tried. I've decided the only thing I have to lose is $142/wk if I pi$$ her off enough to go for my jugular financially in her anger. I'll lose my house, but keep my dignity. I guess it's worth it.

opt
Posted By: Scotland Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 04/23/10 11:24 PM
Opt- I didn't think that your letter was worthless or too bad, there was just some things I thought could have used some tweeking but I am in too much of my own thing to help you out. I feel badly that you didn't get some help with it.

I have to tell you to be TOTALLY prepared for your WW to try to break through your PLan B dark curtain. Show her that this time, you mean business. That you will not cave in. You will be fine. laugh

Sorry that you had to join us Plan Bers but it really isn't that bad a gig once you get the hang of it.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 04/24/10 12:38 AM
Scot, thanks. I'm hard to help, because I've not really been following the plan(s) they way one is supposed to, I get that part. I don't blame folks if they don't jump in. Besides, I'm practically divorced and am looking to get out of what I now believe was an essentially loveless marriage; there are plenty of others who should be getting the immediate attention of the vets (like, you Scotty!). (I consider it triage, and totally respect the concept)

True to form, I didn't stick to the plan. BUT, I didn't cave.

Ww came barreling over here after she read the email/Plan B letter (of course I wasn't answering my phone). She cornered me into having a discussion that I couldn't get out of without making a scene in front of the kids. Of course she tried to defend her position to some extent. I stuck to my guns "you are hurting me and I won't allow it anymore."

She repeated over and over that their friendship did NOT mean more to her than our friendship. She acknowledged that she had been hurting me. She also acknowledged that she has started to realize how selfish she had been (sighting specific examples). She stated it was more important for us to have a harmonious relationship, especially for the kids, than for her to be friends with POM#2. She promised to discontinue their friendship. She said if he didn't understand then he wasn't the type of friend she wanted anyway.

I said it was against my better judgement to trust a known cheater. I told her I have one small shed of trust in her remaining and if she went back on that promise I would be obliterated, as would be whatever was left of our relationship.

**I just found this email she wrote prior to driving over to my house:
"I will stop being friends with POM#2 so that we can work through these issues. Please call me. WW"



Scot. I think she knew I meant business this time. I think I scared her. The things she said weren't that foggy. I recognize fog. I think she really meant it when she said I meant more to her than POM#2. (What a shocker!) The kids know how I feel. They know the promise she made.

Okay, maybe I'm the biggest sucker that ever walked the face of the earth. I'm risking my dignity against trusting the mother of my children one last time. What do I have to lose? I've been crushed before and rose from the ashes. At least I made my point, and stood up to her the best I could, with help from MB.

opt






Posted By: Scotland Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 04/24/10 02:01 AM
Opt- I know that you have not always followed the MB way. It is your journey and you get to do it the way you want. What frustrates the people on here is that MB is a tried tested and true way. Does it GUARANTEE M recovery? Heck NO. Does it mean that you can have a happy and successful M? HECK YES. You didn't follow the MB way this time. But now that you know better you are doing better.

I don't by any means believe that any one of us here deserve to be posted to any more than anyone else. Sometimes people just don't have any advice to give. You know, even the people that don't follow MB to the letter have advice they can give if only to say, "don't do it like I did." I am sure you will be GREAT and you will SURVIVE. Your journey isn't over.

I hope for your sake and for the sake of your children that your WW will do what she says. Unfortunately for me, I don't buy it. I hope I am proven wrong. laugh
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 04/24/10 02:09 PM
I just want to chime in here, Opt. I thought you're letter was fine. There can always be some tweaking. It got the desired results, yes? You got her attention!

I'm getting ready to write a letter to my wife, and will use some of what you wrote. I'm also going to use part of a post from Limbo where he explains why he wants to save his marriage. It's awesome. I'm writing the letter because even though Mrs. Linus has said that she wants to stay together and work on the marriage, she's not 'walking the walk'. I'll explain a lot more on my own thread.

I have to say guys like you and Limbo have been a huge help and inspiration to me. It's been a very rocky ride, especially the past couple of weeks. It's good to have the support of everyone here.

Keep doing what you're doing, which is following your heart. In the end, that's all that matters, right?
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 04/24/10 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
Scot. I think she knew I meant business this time. I think I scared her. The things she said weren't that foggy. I recognize fog. I think she really meant it when she said I meant more to her than POM#2. (What a shocker!) The kids know how I feel. They know the promise she made.

Okay, maybe I'm the biggest sucker that ever walked the face of the earth. I'm risking my dignity against trusting the mother of my children one last time. What do I have to lose? I've been crushed before and rose from the ashes. At least I made my point, and stood up to her the best I could, with help from MB.

Opt- I am encouraged by the immediate results of your letter. I caution you to not jump right back in with complete trust. I think she needs to commit to much more than simply not being friends with POSOM #2 anymore before you welcome her back into your life. Does she know that you are interested in more than a 'harmonious freindship'?

Until she is ready, willing, and demonstrates the capacity to be your WIFE again (and not just a friend), I would work out the IM and stay dark. I think she is still conflicted and doesn't understand that you want/need the whole marriage, and not just a continuing friendship on account of the kids.
Posted By: ToBeContinued Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 04/24/10 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by SickofLimbo
Does she know that you are interested in more than a 'harmonious freindship'?

Until she is ready, willing, and demonstrates the capacity to be your WIFE again (and not just a friend), I would work out the IM and stay dark. I think she is still conflicted and doesn't understand that you want/need the whole marriage, and not just a continuing friendship on account of the kids.

Interesting. When I read Opt's response, I got the impression that he was looking for her to merely play nice (ie. NOT play with OM, friendship on account of the kids), until things were final. I didn't get the impression he wrote this letter as a tool to get Mrs. Opt recommitted to the M.

I think she wants Opt as buddy. She wants the 'fantasy divorce'. Just my interpretation.


TB
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 04/24/10 05:42 PM
Maybe I mis-interpreted what Opt really wants. In his letter I took it to be a path back to the marriage and that he wasn't without hope, however he expressed that he cannot continue their relationship 'as is'.

I think he still wants the marriage and more than a cordial relationship.

Help us out here Opt, what do you really want right now?
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 04/24/10 05:45 PM
Opt,

What's done is done...... The letter was fine. However....... The desired results were for total darkness. I do NOT believe she is going to give up OM, not for ONE SECOND, do I believe this.

What she is going to do is just keep her ineractions with him further under ground. And while she does this, when the kids catch her, and they will...mark my words on this, she is going to tell them, "daddy doesn't need to know about this. Let's keep this to ourselves....", which will be teaching them that it's OKAY to lie. Opt, this is the kind of crap my mother TAUGHT me at the tender age of 11-13, when she was bringing my sister and I around OM nearly every weekend........do you that today, BECAUSE of those actions and learning first hand the pain of adultery through H's affair, I am in Plan B with my mother?.......

Opt, I feel for you, I really really do. But the plans are there for a reason, and it's to protect YOU.......which is who I am most concerned about.

I too hope this woman proves me wrong. I will have no problem eating that dish of humble pie, but unfortunately, I have seen too much of the opposite happen......

{{{{{Opt}}}}}}

Not2fun
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 04/24/10 09:28 PM
Thanks Scot, again. You're right, I'm on a path to be the example of what not to do as far as MB. I can live with that. I also am very interested in really learning the MB concepts so that I can take them into my next relationship. I'm re-reading HNHN and generally applying whatever principles I can to everyday life, e.g. as a parent.

I kinda just want to get this whole episode behind me as much as I can and in as much of "one piece" as I can be. Then move on.

(I can't get a puppy though, I just had all my hardwood floors done and he would ruin them. smile )

~opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 04/24/10 09:33 PM
Linus, thanks for the encouragement and I'm glad my story has been helpful for you. I've been bogged down with all this, but I'll get on your thread ASAP. I know you have a lot of limbo going on and I feel for you.

Ummm, I'm trying not to follow my heart too much though, Linus. My heart got me into this mess, starting 15 years ago. kwim?? To paraphrase (loosely) Mel, "I don't know how to do this myself, I need MB to help."

ww followed her heart right into an affair, and into a divorce.

~opt
Posted By: Scotland Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 04/24/10 09:35 PM
Opt-You don't have to be a total story of what not to do. You could be a "I did it wrong at first and then LOOK OUT WORLD." You could still use the Plans even if it isn't to get to R of M anymore. Although, as long as you are not D, there is still a chance. Who knows? Not me that's for sure.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 04/24/10 09:48 PM
TB and Limbo,

TB's got it right. I know I said something in the letter about 'recovering the M,' perhaps that was a little hyperbolic. I suppose it would be possible, just like it would be possible to pass a camel through the eye of a needle.

I'm ready to start over. I don't have faith in my wife anymore. Without presenting extensive historical evidence, I'm not sure I ever loved this woman the way a husband is supposed to love a wife. Maybe I didn't know how, maybe I had poor example, whatever. But, I believe I can, with considerable diligence which has started with this tragedy, become someone who would be a good husband (which I really wasn't for her). However, I don't believe she is ready to make the changes she needs to to be a good wife [**not trying to confess other's sins here, just saying how I feel].

All this is very sad. But true.


Bottom line, TB is right. I just don't want to be walked on anymore if I can avoid it. As we all know far too well, It's embarrassing, humiliating, and painful to have your wife hanging around with single men. Guess what- it still sucks even during separation, heading for D. I want some consideration, and I'm finding that I don't get what I don't ask for (very specifically).

TB is also right: she wants a fairy tale D. I'm not sure what kind of a D it's going to be. For now, one step at a time; she treats me with respect, she gets my respect.

Thanks again guys for checking in and sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate it you know I do.

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 04/24/10 10:00 PM
Not,
Quote
I do NOT believe she is going to give up OM, not for ONE SECOND, do I believe this.
I know 2, I know. I do think she'll let it drop for a couple of months waiting for the divorce. After that, I couldn't care less what she does.

Quote
And while she does this, when the kids catch her, and they will...mark my words on this, she is going to tell them, "daddy doesn't need to know....
She'll have to answer to them on this, and I am strongly confident they won't let her off the hook.

I have some questions, but I need to get back to you as D8 is swinging the Wii controller in front of my face right now, wanting to play tennis.
Evidently your dishwasher was installed safe and sound...?

Suffice it to say, I hope to be serving some humble pie when this all comes to a close. I'll have some with you. With whipped cream (home made, not the canned stuff).

opt
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 04/26/10 01:27 AM
Hi Opt,

Well guess who. *s*

I read your most recent part of your string over the last week or so.

I've got to say that I don't think your last effot is just letting yourself be "walked upon". I think it is much the way I would and have felt a couple of months ago feel now, and that is you don't want to go final with something as important as this unless you give it that last possible effort. I have to confess to you, that last December when Char was still incommunicato and when I found out she was in a what I label an obscene affair at her age that I was ready to pull the plug. It would have been hard obviously because she was in a nursing home, but still I felt tempted to try to find a way. There was the one thing that swayed me and that is she is and always has been an honest person. Her reaction about our being in no communication and her relationship was honest. Even tho she gave me reasons and excuses for doing these things I know she was honest in them. Opt I have to say from how you describe your wife acting the way she is I would have to judge her as not honest or believable.

I do not agree with people here who simply advise to cut and run, and fortunately there aren't very many of them here. I do agree with much of the advice you are getting now to firmly evaluate Your goals, and your hopes for your kids, and decide from those standpoints. I think the only admonishment I would have of what you are doing Opt is that since you have decided for a firm Plan B, or D, please give yourself a break. The ball is in her court not and she has to 'beyond reasonable doubt' prove herself to you And her family.

Just simply Opt good wishes and prayers.

Tom



Posted By: smileygirl Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 04/26/10 04:43 PM
Opt
I'm glad you sent the Plan B letter. Sounds like she got a reaction from it. Hoping she proves herself true this time.

SG
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 05/01/10 03:07 AM
Tom, thanks for checking in and your words. I appreciate your perspective. It means a lot to me, and thanks as always for your prayers.

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 05/01/10 03:27 AM
Originally Posted by not2fun
Opt,

What's done is done...... The letter was fine. However....... The desired results were for total darkness. I do NOT believe she is going to give up OM, not for ONE SECOND, do I believe this.

What she is going to do is just keep her ineractions with him further under ground. And while she does this, when the kids catch her, and they will...mark my words on this, she is going to tell them, "daddy doesn't need to know about this. Let's keep this to ourselves....", which will be teaching them that it's OKAY to lie. Opt, this is the kind of crap my mother TAUGHT me at the tender age of 11-13, when she was bringing my sister and I around OM nearly every weekend........do you that today, BECAUSE of those actions and learning first hand the pain of adultery through H's affair, I am in Plan B with my mother?.......

Opt, I feel for you, I really really do. But the plans are there for a reason, and it's to protect YOU.......which is who I am most concerned about.

I too hope this woman proves me wrong. I will have no problem eating that dish of humble pie, but unfortunately, I have seen too much of the opposite happen......

{{{{{Opt}}}}}}

Not2fun

Okay, Two, 8 days and I'm sure you'll be happy to know that WW has kept her promise. I remain on guard.
I totally appreciate your concern for me, Not. I really do. I hope if things go south you won't drop me like a bad habit. I'll be ready to take responsibility and accept the consequences for not following MB/Plan B, etc.

I have to ask: Do you feel I'm sending the wrong message to the children by not slamming the door on ww? I agree that the whole mumbo-jumbo of co-parenting and "all families are different, even when they live separately, blah, blah, blah" is psych-bab for "feel good no matter what." I DON'T want my kids to think D is an easy way out, or even an option. I HATE that she cheated on me, deceived me, etc. But I can't hate the person that did it. How do I portray that sentiment to innocent kids caught in the middle of the culmination of a history of half-truths?

Get back to me when you have a minute Not2fun, I know you have a lot going on. Just interested in your thoughts on some of this. I admire your opinion, you know I do.


I've been really keeping in mind what you have said. Guarding myself emotionally and trying to walk a line between a cooperative parent and an ex-spouse.
Point: I want you to know I am protecting myself. I've come to terms with the fact that I could not ever be happy with this woman; she is unable to meet my needs. I new this deep down the day I married her; and did it anyway hoping she would change. The $LB is shut down, essentially; she has a bank, yes, but it's not a $LB.

opt
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 05/01/10 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by optimism
8 days and I'm sure you'll be happy to know that WW has kept her promise.
This is great for you, Opt. It must take some of the pressure off. At lease she's finally showing a little respect.

Hang in there my friend.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 05/18/10 10:18 AM
I need some suggestions.
We filed for D on Feb 22 with mediator. I'm not in a dark Plan B, but stbxw and I don't chat about the weather much. I've removed myself as much as I can but have a very good separation agreement and don't want to provoke ww too much until the court proceeding as she could do a 180 at any time. It's a fine line I walk.

Something she said last week concerned me and I'm not sure how to address it or if I should. I asked "how are you doing?" and she said "I waver between being okay and thinking this was the worst decision we've made in our lives."

ummmm, huh? who's "we?" This was not OUR decision, it was a choice forced on me because she adamantly refused to stop her practice of developing 'friendships' with other men.

My first concern was that she was feeding the kids this BS. I addressed that with S13 over the weekend and reminded him in no uncertain terms that I did NOT want this divorce. I pointed out that I, personally, would be be better off when I found someone to be with who appreciates me, but that my first choice was for that to be WW. I will most certainly have that conversation with both kids more than once as we move on.

Now, I'm doing my best to use guilt to keep WW off balance. It's working. She doesn't like that I'm hurt. She wants a fantasy divorce. She didn't go for my jugular. She wants me to come to family dinners in 5 years. She knows if she pi$$es me off, she won't get a Stepford XH.

But it DOES bug me that she has this as OUR decision. Should it? Is this another ingredient in my guilt stew that I'm brewing or should I just leave this one out?

Funny thing: she asked if I wanted her to pick up my Mother from the airport this week. Unbelievable. I'm not sure, but I think after following me through this whole ordeal I think Mom would rather drag ww behind a car for a few blocks than be in one with her.

opt
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 05/18/10 12:24 PM
Pay no attention to it, Opt. It's just more self-justification and wayward babble coming through. My WXH said the exact same thing any time anybody asked what happened. I set everyone straight when I could and even corrected him, though our separatation agreement was already signed, sealed and delivered. If you want, you can politely remind her that this was her decision, not yours. Though I can tell you that nothing p*$$ed WXH off more than that particular reminder.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 05/18/10 12:34 PM
Quote
...My WXH said the exact same thing
Just when I think my ww is UNIQUE, lol. smile

Thanks Tab, that's helpful. I'll let her live in fogfantasyland. She's delusional. I'll just make sure to make sure people that matter have the facts. Like my kids.

opt
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 05/18/10 01:06 PM
Opt,

Real quick,.....

STOP worrying she's gonna go after your jugular......she WONT......it would NOT be in her best interest to do that, and even though she is in the entitled wayward state of mind, she won't do it......

Not2fun
Posted By: schtoop Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 05/18/10 02:21 PM
Opt,

Hang in there. And, do not get sucked into the fairy tale divorce.

Right now that's the only thing keeping my WW from pulling the trigger. A month or more ago we had the talk of "what do you want, how do you see our future." When the talk of divorce as a solution came up, she had this fairy tale vision of an easy an amicable divorce, me moving to an apartment close by, helping take and pick up the kids from school everyday, basically being her personal nanny, and of course remaining friends.

When I gave her my version, she actually broke down and cried for the first time.
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 05/18/10 04:44 PM
FWIF, Pinky tells others that "WE are divorcing" and never "I" have decided.... Whatever. I think they just try to minimize their responsibility for being the ones driving the train.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 05/18/10 05:37 PM
right limb. amazing. and it's someone with that sense of responsibility who is now raising my children 50% of the time. that's what fills me with a renewed sense of responsibility to be the best dad I can be. better than ever.

opt.

ps I did say MY kids. in some ways I now secretly consider ww simply someone who was present during their birth....
smile [no offense to all the good Mothers out there]
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 05/20/10 03:16 AM
Originally Posted by not2fun
Opt,

Real quick,.....

STOP worrying she's gonna go after your jugular......she WONT......it would NOT be in her best interest to do that, and even though she is in the entitled wayward state of mind, she won't do it......

Not2fun

I think you're saying that she would be reluctant to do anything to destroy her own fantasy of divorce where everyone holds hands and sings the old Coca-cola theme song. Actually makes sense. I never thought of it like that. Theory actually proven when she responded favorably to my Pseudo Plan B regarding the continued contact with POM#2 (which she continues to uphold except for one instance not worth elaborating on).

Am I reading your statement correctly, not2fun?

~opt
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 05/20/10 10:37 AM
Hey Opt - I'd like to add my .02 to this. When Mrs. Linus and I were at our lowest point and separation/divorce were part of the conversation, she also had the fantasyland version of divorce in mind. How we would always remain 'friends', and I would go to all family functions, etc. Her parents divorced when she was younger, and that's how it was for them. They actually got along better after divorcing, and did a lot of family things together. So, she figured that's how it would be with us. Well, I popped that balloon one day when I told her that I doubted if I would ever even speak with her or any of her family again once the papers were filed. I told her I would be civil, I would talk to her only when needed, and that there was NO WAY we would be anything near 'friends'. That really upset her. I think that may have played a part in getting her turned around - she realized she wouldn't be able to have the best of both worlds.

Waywards sure do have a strange view of life.
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Another EA Story - PLAN B letter - 05/20/10 12:23 PM
For the record, my WXH had the same ideas for his fantasy divorce, but it also included him continuing to lie and steal from me. I conducted a similar pseudo-plan B where I only communicated with him over essential stuff (we had DS's wedding and graduation during that time). For the most part, we could be civilized but we were definitely NOT friends. His idea of friendship involved me going shopping and hanging out with OW (gag). Anyway, things fell apart when he stole my income tax refund. I had to take him to small claims court to get it back and, though we were extremely civil during that entire process, he was so furious about losing that he has since "plan B'd" me.
Posted By: optimism Re: Another EA Story - closing down - 09/20/10 12:15 AM
Officially "closing down" this thread. Divorce was final on September 16th, three days ago.

I'm compelled at this point to look back at the last 18 months of my life and think about how horrific, yet valuable it's been. I certainly didn't ever want to get to the position I'm in, with divorce. Never wanted my kids to grow up in two different homes. Never wanted to be coming home to an empty house at 41 and have my financial future on shaky ground.

But MB has helped me recognize the role I played in the M getting to the state it did. It's helped me take responsibility for the things I did wrong, and the things I didn't do at all. It's also helped me understand the areas that I wasn't responsible for and accept that people have free will; even God can't make them stop if they have a mind to act on their compulsions.

Mostly I wanted to post on this old thread with a huge "THANK YOU" to all of those who have helped me through my struggle. If I started trying to name individuals I'd be here all night. So many here have put it to me straight and although a lot of it was very difficult to hear, they were words that needed to be said. Following the tough advice has been very valuable for me and definitely helped me right my moral compass. I already know my next 40 years will be better because of folks who have offered their input.

So, to those of you still struggling with spousal infidelity, I can say there is light on the other side of this nightmare. It may not be the light you're expecting or even hoping for. However, Following the guidelines here and gaining a true understanding of the principles will get you to a better place. I wish everyone on this board the utmost of success. I wish everyone who comes here could find a way to save their marriage, I really do. I know that's not possible. What is possible is that you can find the positive in the nightmare of infidelity if you work hard to find it.

Sincerely,
hug
~Optimism
Posted By: Scotland Re: Another EA Story - closing down - 09/20/10 12:41 AM
I am sorry about the D opt. You did your best. Thank you too. (((((OPT))))))
Posted By: not2fun Re: Another EA Story - closing down - 09/20/10 12:42 AM
{{{{{Opt}}}}}}

You "grew" a lot......YOU did that, all MB and we did was hand you the tools. Its what you do with them that matters...in the grand scheme of things....

I'm very proud of you and proud to know you....

Not

ps...I will keep my mouth shut from here forward on the dating scene..... wink
Posted By: _SOL Re: Another EA Story - closing down - 09/20/10 02:12 PM
Thanks Opt. You have helped me a bunch during this most difficult time as well. I'm sorry it ended the way it did, but maybe that's the way it was supposed to end.

Wish you the best of luck as you move forward. Stay in touch around here if you can. Your experience and wisdom can still help many others.
Posted By: ToBeContinued Re: Another EA Story - closing down - 09/20/10 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
I wish everyone who comes here could find a way to save their marriage, I really do. I know that's not possible. What is possible is that you can find the positive in the nightmare of infidelity if you work hard to find it.

Hey Opt,

I am thankful for the opportunity to hear your story and to watch you evolve through your journey....

Sure, I'm no Nostradamus, but I do see good things for you in the future. Really good things. You have earned the privilege of experiencing them -- all of them.

Enjoy the journey....


TBC
Posted By: Linus Re: Another EA Story - closing down - 09/20/10 09:00 PM
BIG man-hug for Opt. (((((Opt)))))

Don't ever forget how much you have helped many of us here, and I'm a great example. My situation may not turn out that great, but I'm a better man than I was when I started here, and you're a part of that.

Hard to imagine at this time, but I do believe that you're in a better place, and there are many good things down the road for you.

Seems like you, Limbo and I came to MB about the same time. We have become kindred spirits, in a way. As Limbo says, please stay in touch. You have a LOT to bring to others who will come here. I have no doubt there will be thousands with the same story as you and Limbo and I, that being spouses who started EAs and PAs where social websites played a huge part.

Godspeed, my friend.

Linus
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