Hi all -
My wife of many years has just started to initiate a separation. There is a very new relationship for her that is a factor. Fortunately, it has not progressed very far.
I am trying to negotiate an agreement to not have any contact with the third party while we work on our issues, and I am meeting strong resistance. It is challenging to not make demands and threats, which I realize are very destructive. So I am looking for any advice in this department.
Thanks in advance for any help.
Welcome to MB.
How long have you been married?
Do you have any kids?
Do you know who this other person is? Are they married.
Advice... starting studying on here and EXPOSE to EVERYONE you can that has influence on your wife.
Gather as much information as possible.
Greetings, mfoss. I'm sorry event have caused you to find this place, but your good fortune is that you DID find it!
Queenie's advice is sound and solid. Do it. Do it now!
If your wife has initiated separation, then the "new" relationship is not so new. It's likely she has progressed from the "we're sympathetic and compatible with one another" stage to the "I have found my soul mate and want to move in with him" stage. This is what happened to me.
I need to tell you up front that you are going to experience the "roller coaster" of emotions that accompanies knowledge of an affair. "D-Day" is the day you became aware of the Other Person (OP, or OM). My advice to you is this:
Follow the directions given to you by the veterans on this board. Even when they go against everything you think is "right" and "proper." That is, unless you're willing to throw in the towel and prepare for D (divorce).
Read everything you can on the Marriage Builders (MB) web site. Learn about Emotional Needs (EN), Love Busters (LB) and start preparing Plan A right away. Today, go to your local book store and purchase a copy of "Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Willard Harley, Jr. and Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmers (no, I'm not a shill for them or this site, but these are the tools you need if you're going to rescue and rebuild your marriage).
Ask questions here. Anything, any time. The folks here will help you get through this.
I promise.
I'd agree that this "new" relationship is not so new and it has gone further than you think. So if you want to recover your M you need to start a good plan A.
What is Plan A and Plan B? I'd also start documenting everything in case it goes in the other direction. You want to protect your assets as well. It's not uncommon for a WS to drain the family assets carrying on an A.
Sorry that this is going on, but glad you made it here.
Thanks very much for the advice and support.
We have been married 11 years, with 2 kids. On one hand, I am pretty confident that the other relationship has not progressed very far, based on time and circumstance, and I do believe that it was a catalyst for this situation, based at least partially on my wife not wanting to hurt me. On the other hand, I am aware that it there are emotional needs being met, and I am also aware that we can not move forward until no contact is established.
The challenge I face is balancing the positive behaviour of plan A with the seemingly love busting actions of exposing things, which angered her greatly when I mentioned doing it. Do I just need to do it, get the exposure over with, and move to plan a?
Also, what what to tell the kids?
I am so glad to have found this site and this forum. I can't tell you how silly I feel reading about basic concepts that I have clearly neglected.
Thanks again for all the great advice so far, and support.
Hi all -
My wife of many years has just started to initiate a separation. There is a very new relationship for her that is a factor. Fortunately, it has not progressed very far.
I am trying to negotiate an agreement to not have any contact with the third party while we work on our issues, and I am meeting strong resistance. It is challenging to not make demands and threats, which I realize are very destructive. So I am looking for any advice in this department.
Thanks in advance for any help.
ok, mfoss, I need you to listen very carefully, because you are on the verge of making some very strategic mistakes that may spell the end of your marriage.
There are some key points you need to understand.
1. your wife wants the separation to carry on her affair unimpeded.
2. the affair HAS progressed very far if she wants to leave her marriage to pursue it - the affair is very entrenched
3. separation increases the risk of divorce so it would be a mistake to cooperate
4. your wife is hoping to spin the story like this:
"mfoss and I fell out of love and I am ending the marriage. We are getting separated. Because of this I have met a new man and ........."
the TRUE STORY IS THIS:
"I am having an adulterous affair with JoeScumBag and am abandoning my marriage for my affair."
5. getting the true story out there via exposure will hasten the death of this affair
The first mistake is agreeing to a separation. You have to first understand that your wife wants the separation so she can carry on her affair unimpeded. She has probably told you needs "space" to "think" about things, right? So you are wasting your time asking her to not to continue her affair. You are negotiating for the wrong thing, in other words.
What you should not do is to COOPERATE with a separation. Tell her you are not interested in separation, but will only cooperate with marital recovery.
In the meantime, you can work on saving your marriage by letting her know you will change the things in your marriage that made her unhappy and by striving to RUIN HER AFFAIR. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposing it will be your most potent weapon against the affair. It is based on fantasy, and bringing it out into the open ruins all that. We have had affairs die the day they were exposed. With others, it hastens their death.
The challenge I face is balancing the positive behaviour of plan A with the seemingly love busting actions of exposing things, which angered her greatly when I mentioned doing it. Do I just need to do it, get the exposure over with, and move to plan a?
Also, what what to tell the kids?
The goal here is to save your marriage, not to avoid making her angry at all cost. Your marriage can survive her temporary anger, it can't survive an ongoing affair. The affair should be exposed to everyone. Your family, your children, her family, his family, employer, if applicable.
The kids should be told the whole truth. That their mother is having an adulterous affair with JoeSB and that their mother wants to abandon the family for her affair. She can explain her actions to the kids. She can explain why it is ok to cruelly harm others for her "happiness." The kids will have plenty of questions for her, no doubt.
What she is doing is not ok, and it should not be whitewashed to make her feel better about her thoughtless, cruel behavior.
The marriages that made it around here exposed the affair, mfoss; you cannot afford to forgo this potent tool out of fear.
Dr. Harley on Exposure
Don't tell your wife that you are going to expose this A. Of course she doesn't want this secret of hers exposed. A's thrive in secrecy. She will hate that her secret gets out and she will be very angry. BUT your M can handle her anger, your M cannot WITHSTAND her ongoing A. Expose the A to your family and hers to get their support and to put pressure on her to end it. You do it calmly, not in a vindictive way. "My wife is having an A with so n so and I want to R our M. I would appreciate your support". That's all that needs to be said. At this point in time you REALLY need support. The kids should be told in an age appropriate fashion.
Here's a great summary of what Plan A looks like.
The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A
The carrot of Plan A
Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.
Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.
Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.
Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.
Stop lovebusting behaviors.
Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.
Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.
Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.
Offering forgiveness and understanding.
The stick of Plan A
Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.
Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.
Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.
Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.
Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.
Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.
Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.
Make sure YOU ARE NOT THE ONE TO LEAVE THE FAMILY HOME! If she wants to separate, SHE should have to leave. Your kids need a stable environment and she cannot possibly give them that while in the throws of an A. Wayward spouses do not think straight and they are very selfish and self centered. Right now they are NOT her priority. You have to protect them.
Do you know who the OM is? You need to find this out and expose to his family. How did they meet? Do they work together? If so the workplace also needs to be exposed to.
I am trying to negotiate an agreement to not have any contact with the third party while we work on our issues, and I am meeting strong resistance
Rule #1 in the art of killing an affair: never negotiate with a terrorist. Your marriage is under assault by an affair. That woman is not your wife, but an alien whose mind is in the throes of an addictive affair.
Is the OM married? Who is he and where did your wife meet him?
Dr. Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders:
Whenever a betrayed spouse tells me that they�ve just discovered their spouse�s affair, my advice is almost always the same: Let others know about it. Tell your children, family, friends, clergy, and especially the lover�s spouse, if they have one. And this is even to be done during what I call plan A (making an effort to make as many Love Bank deposits, and as few withdrawals as possible). The problem some people have with that strategy is that it conflicts with the goal of plan A because it�s likely to cause massive Love Bank withdrawals. An unfaithful spouse almost always considers such exposure to be a worse act of betrayal than their affair itself. But the alternative, helping the unfaithful spouse to keep the affair a secret, is enabling the addiction, prolonging the agony. In the long run, making the affair public knowledge without any forewarnings, threats, or bartering (which by themselves can create massive withdrawals) actually reduces the number of Love Bank withdrawals made by the betrayed spouse. It�s my opinion that the advantages of immediate exposure usually far outweigh the disadvantages.
<snip>
Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery.
here Dr. Harley on telling the children:
Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home.
___________________________________
A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.
When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.
The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.
Q: How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)
A: Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).
My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.
The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.
The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).
Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.
It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.
Just more emphasis from other replies.
Do NOT talk about exposure. Just do it.
Expect anger afterwards. It means you hit your mark and it has effect on the situation. In your favor.
Prepare for the anger and try remember to stay calm in its face when it comes at you. That is a given.
Then, continue with your Plan A. No lovebusting and showing what a good spouse you can be even in the horrible situation of infedelity.
ok, mfoss, I need you to listen very carefully, because you are on the verge of making some very strategic mistakes that may spell the end of your marriage.
There are some key points you need to understand.
1. your wife wants the separation to carry on her affair unimpeded.
2. the affair HAS progressed very far if she wants to leave her marriage to pursue it - the affair is very entrenched
3. separation increases the risk of divorce so it would be a mistake to cooperate
4. your wife is hoping to spin the story like this:
"mfoss and I fell out of love and I am ending the marriage. We are getting separated. Because of this I have met a new man and ........."
the TRUE STORY IS THIS:
"I am having an adulterous affair with JoeScumBag and am abandoning my marriage for my affair."
5. getting the true story out there via exposure will hasten the death of this affair
The first mistake is agreeing to a separation. You have to first understand that your wife wants the separation so she can carry on her affair unimpeded. She has probably told you needs "space" to "think" about things, right? So you are wasting your time asking her to not to continue her affair. You are negotiating for the wrong thing, in other words.
What you should not do is to COOPERATE with a separation. Tell her you are not interested in separation, but will only cooperate with marital recovery.
In the meantime, you can work on saving your marriage by letting her know you will change the things in your marriage that made her unhappy and by striving to RUIN HER AFFAIR. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposing it will be your most potent weapon against the affair. It is based on fantasy, and bringing it out into the open ruins all that. We have had affairs die the day they were exposed. With others, it hastens their death.
mfoss, you are here and have the opportunity to save your M "in time." I wish I had found this place when my WW announced she wanted out and then not 24 hours later admitted to the A.
Had I known then what I know now, I would be in Plan A, and not Plan B -- I hurried off to a lawyer to draw up the separation agreement, and played right into WW's hands.
Because of this, the chances of my WW and I recovering this M is greatly reduced. There are other reasons as well, but some of the veterans here have advised me that I might want to get used to living without her in my life.
It sucks, but I rushed into some bad decisions because I was ruled by emotion and not logic. Yes, you are filled with emotion. So let the
logic of the veterans here guide you!
Amazing. It's on guys. You have all inspired me. I think I get it. It is pretty rollercoastery though!
They met through my work. He is in a relationship as well. I am going to call him ASAP as a first step.
Perhaps funnily, I am a little excited about implementing plan A and meeting her needs which I can clearly see I have not, so my instincts were confused over her negative reaction to exposure. The fact that she is so against exposure and not agreeing to ending it clearly indicates to me that there is something there that she is attached to.
My only consideration is that one of the situations where Dr. H does not advocate exposure is when you do not have enough proof. I am a borderline case from an evidence perspective, but all the clues are pointing to a very clear scenario. So, I think I am comfortable going ahead and just being honest.
Telling the kids is going to be interesting, any further advice or real world experiences would be appreciated.
I am finding the information on this site so valuable. I need to find a way to buy this book, and deal with the shame of going to a bookstore to do it. Maybe I can ask a friend to do it.
Thanks again with my entire heart.
mfoss, then your first step is to QUIETLY get the evidence. Don't ask, just hire a PI or get the goods yourself. [we can help you with this]
They met through my work. He is in a relationship as well. I am going to call him ASAP as a first step.
Don't call him until you have the goods and have exposed the affair. We will help you with that step when it is time.
First things first. Tell your wife you are not interested in a separation and will not cooperate. Don't fight, plead or lovebust or lecture.
Don't even let her know you know about her affair YET. Just get the goods and come back here. We will help you plan this out strategically. Our goal is to help you save your marriage.
I need to find a way to buy this book, and deal with the shame of going to a bookstore to do it. Maybe I can ask a friend to do it.
You can order it on this website and have it sent to your office or another address. They sell the books cheap and have fast, cheap shipping.
You can order the book from the online bookstore on this site. I believe that it even comes with a slight discount if you do this.
There is a very new relationship for her that is a factor.
oh, wait a minute. Didn't she already tell you she is having an affair with this chump?
She is maintaining it is well short of an affair, but has admitted to seeing him (in a public place) since the separation request, and having feelings for him.
She is maintaining it is well short of an affair, but has admitted to seeing him (in a public place) since the separation request, and having feelings for him.
Get the goods, mfoss. There are several ways to get proof. How does she communicate with him? Can you hire a PI? Can you tap her phone? If she has a PDA, you can install flexispy, [one version comes with GPS]; you can install a keylogger on her computer and put a GPS on her car and follow her. She is lying about the depth of her affair. Her affair is very entrenched, that is why she wants to "separate." If it was not very entrenched, she wouldn't be wanting to leave, I assure you.
It sounds like she believes announcing "separation" somehow negates the fact that this is adultery? to my amazement, occasionally we get wayward wives who ask for a "separation," move into the back bedroom and commence to committing adultery! They actually believe that saying "separation" justifies adultery.
It is the most amazing MANIPULATION I have ever seen! However, adultery is a adultery. Married is married.
You are getting great advice.
When did she meet OM thru your work? They may have started communicating shortly after they met... Like the others are saying, this has probably going on much longer than you think. Do you have access to her cell phone records or email?
mfoss,
What others here are saying is sadly, absolutely true.
What women decides to seperate from her H and children, unless she is hopelessly entrenched in an adulteres affair? The short answer is none!
Exposure of this A is the biggest weapon in your arsenal right now, so do not be afraid to use it. Her family, friends, coworkers, and your children, all need to know why mommy is moving out. And make no mistake, it is to carry on her A outside of your scrutiny.
Break the secrecy bubble by exposing to all who could have an influence on her. Exposure is like turning on the lights in a crack house. No addict wants that, and your WW is now addicted to her OM.
I am sorry you are here but you need to listen to what others who have walked your walk in front of you have to say. We know. BTDT.
All blessings to you,
Jerry
Well, I am going to shine some exposure on this thing which I imagine will bring all sorts of interesting things to light. I feel a weird mix of wanting to vindictively expose it widely to kill it, and also exposing it only enough to kill it and not hurt WW so we can get on to plan A.
Thanks again so much.
You're not trying to hurt her with exposure, you're trying to KILL the A.
Well, I am going to shine some exposure on this thing which I imagine will bring all sorts of interesting things to light. I feel a weird mix of wanting to vindictively expose it widely to kill it, and also exposing it only enough to kill it and not hurt WW so we can get on to plan A.
Thanks again so much.
There is no such thing as hurting a befogged WS. They have already decided you're beyond reach and redemption, so why not kill the affair?
We had talked about this last night, and she was against it, but ran out and phoned him, and then came back and said he would talk to me. I just asked for his number, and she has run out again. I am no longer going to talk to her about it, I am just going to do it.
Thanks for the voices of experience, you are soooooo right on so far.
Well, I am going to shine some exposure on this thing which I imagine will bring all sorts of interesting things to light. I feel a weird mix of wanting to vindictively expose it widely to kill it, and also exposing it only enough to kill it and not hurt WW so we can get on to plan A.
mfoss, it is best to do your exposures in one day to get the maximum effect and to get it over with quick so you can get on with trying to meet her needs. Exposure will not hurt your wife, but it will hurt your chances if you don't do it right. For example, if you just do a little exposure, it will just be a little dribble that the affairees will easily overcome. If you just do a small amount, then the affairees will get to all other exposure targets FIRST and spin the story; they will pre-empt you. And pre-empting you will take away your ammunition because you will have been discredited before you get there. Exposure will not be effective.
Secondly, if you just do a little exposure and it is not effective [which it likely won't be] when you go to do some more, you will just causing ANOTHER blowup that will produce little to no effect because you will have been pre-empted. It is better to get it done in one fell swoop the first time so you can just move on to other things.
So, the goal is to do the most effective exposure possible and not be afraid of causing harm. Your spouse will be angry no matter what, but the wider the exposure, the more effective, because it will mean one less place your W and her OM have to hide.
Again, it should be done on the same day so it has a tsunami effect. Exposure targets should be:
1. OM's GF
1. your parents, your WW's parents, the OM's parents
3. close friends and siblings
4. employer [using the template we have]
5. your children
6. your wife and her OM's facebook friends
Since there is nothing wrong with her affair, according to her, then all you are doing is spreading the good news.
We had talked about this last night, and she was against it, but ran out and phoned him, and then came back and said he would talk to me. I just asked for his number, and she has run out again. I am no longer going to talk to her about it, I am just going to do it.
.
What did you have to talk to him about?
I would not bother with him right now. FIRST, expose this affair. Then you can have a visit with him.
And you are right about not talking to her about it. Don't forewarn her!
Whatever you do, don't tell your W you are going to expose this affair! Just do it!
Well, sadly I let the cat out of the bag before coming here. Anyhoo, I have agreed to not talk about it anymore with her and I will be doing it ASAP.
I am going to talk to him to ask him to not see her anymore, and to explain the situation from my perspective.
Thanks again. Rollercoaster. Further guidance welcomed.
mfoss,
talking to OM is pointless and fruitless. Do you really believe he cares about your perspective???
He knows your WW is M'd and he knows who she is M'd to. Did that stop him??
Don't waste your time on exposure targets that are of no use.
Follow Mel's target list.
All Blessings
Jerry
Well, sadly I let the cat out of the bag before coming here. Anyhoo, I have agreed to not talk about it anymore with her and I will be doing it ASAP.
I am going to talk to him to ask him to not see her anymore, and to explain the situation from my perspective.
mfoss, give him your "perspective" like this:
Tell him he had better hang onto his [censored], because he is in for the fight of his life. Tell him there is no future for him with your wife becuase you will be fighting for your marriage. Tell him he will be eternally hated by your inlaws and your children as the scumbag who broke up their family. Tell him if this gets to any legal action, that you will sue for divorce on grounds of adultery and will have him hauled into court to give testimony under oath.
But before you do all this, EXPOSE the affair, mfoss. Do this before they pre-empt you with stories like "my H has lost his mind and imagines I am having an affair with XYZ. We are in the midst of getting separated becuase he has been abusing me for years so he imagines it is becaues of an affair." Then when you call the exposure target, you will have been discredited.
Can you expose the affair today?
4. employer [using the template we have]
Perhaps it would be helpful to post that here, or to provide a link. I had to write one (that I think was quite good -- but I don't know if it's had any affect).
I would appreciate any advice on writing the letters. links or copies of other letters would be good. I am working on a daft now.
She has agreed to go to counselling first thing tomorrow, and says she is afraid of talking to me without a 3rd party involved, because she feels threatened by the fact I may expose the A. So I am unsure as to exactly when and how I do this, but it is going to be ASAP, but practically may not be tonight.
If we go to counselling without me sending the message, how should I approach talking about this issue?
Again, advice very much appreciated. I can't imagine doing this without this resource and your help.
Here is what I have:
Hi all.
I am writing to give you an update about a painful situation I am going through.
Earlier this week, NAME informed me she wanted a trial seperation, as she was unhappy with our relationship and that it was over. Throughout the week we have been working through the mechanics of this.
I suspected, and was able to confirm that there is another party involved. I have asked her to cease all contact with this party while we work throught the details of our problems and seek professional help. She has refused to do this.
I feel it is not possible for us to work through this situation to any conclusion while she is still in contact with him. The relationship started very recently a far as I can tell, and has had innappropriate elements.
His name is NAME, and they met through work I was doing at COMPANY. He is also in a relationship.
So, I am sending this message to you to shed some light on the situation, and to ask for your help and support while we work through it. Please feel free to contact me directly if you can help in any way.
One more thing... what sort of reaction can I expect from people? I don't care too much, but I want to prepare myself for anything I need to.
Thanks!
mfoss, first off, you don't even want to send that via email. Make phone calls to everyone except her workplace and perhaps her facebook friends. If you send that out mass email you will have 2 or 3 who respond by trashing you and a select few will rile each other up. you don't need that.
CAll them up personally and tell them about the affair and tell them you are trying to save your marriage. Leave out all that other stuff and keep it SIMPLE. "My wife is having an adulterous affair with Joe Blow and wants to leave our family for her affair." That is all you need to say. All that other stuff is irrelevant pollution. Ask them for their support. Don't tell them about what she said, just tell them that a) she is having an adulterous affair with Joe XYZ and ask for their help. PERIOD.
Send her workplace a letter to the Director of Human Resources and cc a key VP and her supervisor.
Set down your kids and tell them the truth.
There is no reason to go to "counseling" while she is in an affair. That is a distraction because nothing can be done to save your marriage while she is in an affair.
You need to get moving on this exposure before she pre-empts you. It was a huge lovebuster and a strategic mistake to FOREWARN her. You only made her mad for no reason.
You can expect some ppl to be angry at you and say stupid things like "she has to follow her heart" and others will be extremely supportive. Some will be angry at you for exposing her. Thats ok. You are not doing this to get approval, and you will find out real quick who your real friends are.
Developed by Brits Brat, board member and corporate attorney
To Whom It May Concern:
This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.
WS and WS are involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place, primarily, in the workplace. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets. WS and WS are using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship.
If you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxxx. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.
Regards,
BS
_________________________
She has agreed to go to counselling first thing tomorrow, and says she is afraid of talking to me without a 3rd party involved, because she feels threatened by the fact I may expose the A.
She is very afraid you will interfere with her affair because she knows it will kill it. She wants to distract you by dragging you to counseling. It is a distraction.
She is terrified of exposure and I suspect it may be becasue she knows if his SO finds out, the affair will be over.
Why can't you expose this affair tonight?
Here is what I have:
Hi all.
I am writing to give you an update about a painful situation I am going through.
Earlier this week, NAME informed me she wanted a trial seperation, as she was unhappy with our relationship and that it was over. Throughout the week we have been working through the mechanics of this.
I suspected, and was able to confirm that there is another party involved. I have asked her to cease all contact with this party while we work throught the details of our problems and seek professional help. She has refused to do this.
I feel it is not possible for us to work through this situation to any conclusion while she is still in contact with him. The relationship started very recently a far as I can tell, and has had innappropriate elements.
His name is NAME, and they met through work I was doing at COMPANY. He is also in a relationship.
So, I am sending this message to you to shed some light on the situation, and to ask for your help and support while we work through it. Please feel free to contact me directly if you can help in any way.
Don't tell people any of this. Most of it are lies from your WW and is irrelevant and confusing to the issue. Most of the information came from your WW and is a lie.
Is the OM married? I suspect that is why your wife is so terrified. Can you call the OM's house and see if a woman answers?
mfoss, I understand your desire for action.
But your actions will work against you at this point.
Step 1: You need additional evidence to confront the affair. Don't take long, but gather it. You can google "snooping 101 site:marriagebuilders.com" to get some info here, but you want some concrete proof about the affair. In part, it is because some of the people to whom you expose will demand it -- or at least demand to know that you have it -- and you want to have your ducks lined up. Time is short; do what you can to get confirmation before separation.
Step 2: Start your "Plan A" according to Dr. Harley's outline in "Surviving An Affair". You want her to have wonderful memories of you, or at the very least, promising signs that you can fill her emotional needs. If you don't have a copy of this book yet, you can buy it using "Kindle for PC" and have it within SECONDS. Stay up all night if you have to: learn why affairs start, how they end, how they SHOULD end, and what YOU MUST DO to have the best chance of saving your marriage.
Step 3: Now it's time for the "nuclear exposure" we've talked about. Invite every person -- via phone or in person, not via mail if possible! -- who might be in favor of your marriage to know. I did my exposure with the following line, "FRIEND, I know you know WW well and love her. I believe because of that you're in the best position to help me. WW is having an affair, and I don't know what to do. I'd appreciate any advice you have to give."
Everybody loves to give advice. Only three of the several dozen I spoke to gave me good advice; the rest was crap.
Good luck!
BB, unfortunately, he has told his wife tonight that he plans on exposing the affair, so time is of the essence. Additionally, his wife has already admitted to him she is having an affair with this man, so while additional proof would be great, it is not essential for his purposes.
Everybody loves to give advice. Only three of the several dozen I spoke to gave me good advice; the rest was crap.
What a rude thing to say.
Please listen to ML. She knows what she is talking about. ITA that time is of the essence now that your WW knows you are about to expose...do it tonight if you can...
Well, if I am to be making calls, I am not sure I can do it tonight... had a work comittment this evening that I had to deal with. So, unsure of what to do...
mfoss, I say this in the most sincere way: STOP YOUR D**** PUSSYFOOTING!!! You are being given the best possible advice. MelodyLane is a real veteran and gives some of the best side of the Harleys, in my opinion.
While you dither, you are frittering away your marriage. GET CRACKING and GET GOING.
Seriously, I mean it.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Fred!
mfoss, why not get a good nights sleep and think over your exposure list and come back and discuss your plans tomorrow? I am very concerned that you have revealed your battle plan to your wife, which can't be good. Hopefully, we can help you work around that. But please don't show your hand any more to her. She will use to undermine you and impede your ability to save your marriage.
One final word, mfoss: This is a gunfight. You'd better bring more than a knife.
Fred, wow. You're doing some great 2 x 4ing here, I didn't think you capable of it.
You BHs do get better over time though.
Fred, wow. You're doing some great 2 x 4ing here, I didn't think you capable of it.
LOL. Truth be told, if I'd come here earlier I might have avoided making some potentially fatal (to the M, that is) mistakes.
Speaking of which, I'm posing a new question in my own thread. Wondering about value/mistake ratio...
You BHs do get better over time though.
Getting better = surviving. That's why I'm here. Regardless of how the M turns out.
mfoss, you are getting some good advice here � I suggest you take it.
Two years and two months ago, I discovered my W was having an A. Despite the fact they were romantically involved for only two weeks, she was willing to move out of the house and away from her children to pursue the new relationship. Although counterintuitive, I followed the advice given here � I exposed and �Planned A� my tuchas off. Now, after a lot of hard work, my M is better than ever.
Here are some lessons learned:
- Your W has already chosen to be with the OM. No amount of reasoning, begging, pleading, ultimatums, or threats will change that.
- The only way your W will be willing to consider working on the marriage is if the affair ends. Marriage counseling during an active affair is useless.
- Affairs thrive on secrecy. Exposure is the best way to kill it.
There is, of course, much more but until you expose, there is little you can do to try and save your marriage.
mfoss, no one will blame you if you decide your marriage is not worth keeping. If you want to try and save it, however, you will need to pull out all the stops. Fight for your marriage � give it your all. Anything less and you have already lost.
Time to let
everyone know the truth. Time to expose.
Best of luck.
- Sh0cked
Well, not really a restful night, but I did not torture myself by trying to sleep after waking up with cold sweats. I did a lot of reading, and feel I am getting an even better understanding of the things you are all saying.
I also did some preparing. I am thinking in order to expose, I need to setup ASAP. Obviously, I can not make calls while WW is around. I will find a way. I hope that like most things, once I start it will get easier.
Continued support and advice much appreciated. Long day coming up.
mfoss, the ball is in your court. We have given you a game plan and there is nothing much more we can advise until you take action. I would find the exposure list I made up and start there, most especially with the OM's GF or wife. That will be the most critical exposure.
But, the ball is in your court now. More talking will not solve the problem.
Good luck!
Telling the kids is going to be interesting, any further advice or real world experiences would be appreciated.
I am finding the information on this site so valuable. I need to find a way to buy this book, and deal with the shame of going to a bookstore to do it. Maybe I can ask a friend to do it.
Thanks again with my entire heart.
You can order books through this website. I think I got mine the next day - two days at the latest.
How old are the kids? They need to be told that Mommy is in a situation where she is making a bad choice that will affect the family. There are age-appropriate ways to approach them. My kids are in their mid-late teens. FWH told them that he had made a bad choice and had chosen to enter into an inappropriate relationship with a former co-worker (the A was over and the co-worker had quit by the time he told the kids.) They told him that they knew something was very wrong during the A, and thanked him for telling them the truth of our lives during that period of time.
Your kids know that
something is wrong. They'll fill in the blanks with possibly damaging thoughts ("we must be bad kids if Mommy is willing to leave us") They can handle the truth. The damaging thing is the A. When they hear you explain it to them, they will be witnessing a parent who is in control of their home.
She is maintaining it is well short of an affair, but has admitted to seeing him (in a public place) since the separation request, and having feelings for him.
That's funny. Not. The OW in my sitch told her H the same thing. She neglected to mention to him that the affair had progressed to a physical affair (PA) at that point.
We had talked about this last night, and she was against it, but ran out and phoned him, and then came back and said he would talk to me. I just asked for his number, and she has run out again. I am no longer going to talk to her about it, I am just going to do it.
Thanks for the voices of experience, you are soooooo right on so far.
Stop talking to her about exposure. You're giving them too much time to get their stories straight.
When you tell the kids, tell them the TRUTH. That their mom is in an adulterous affair with another man and wants to break up their family for her affair. Tell them why adultery is immoral and who the OM is. Kids just need the straight truth along with clear, concise, MORAL GUIDANCE. If you don't give them moral guidance by telling them it is WRONG and why it is WRONG, they will think you advocate adultery.
Thanks again all.
Just gearing up for action. OMGF may be hard to track down, but I have him at work obviously. I am no longer talking about this issue with WW, once you all counselled me to stop I did as gracefully as I could.
Lots of moving pieces, but the objective is clear. It is a lot to absorb and figure out, and obviously there are many details and considerations to coordinate, but suffice it to say I am going nuclear ASAP.
I am making my calls in order of impact, starting with those closest to my wife and OM. I am keeping the kids lower on the list for now, but my intent is to hit the whole thing at once, unless I run into snags.
I am considering the reaction I am going to generate from WW, and need to make sure I protect myself and the kids from any danger.
mfoss,
talking to OM is pointless and fruitless. Do you really believe he cares about your perspective???
He knows your WW is M'd and he knows who she is M'd to. Did that stop him??
Don't waste your time on exposure targets that are of no use.
Follow Mel's target list.
All Blessings
Jerry
OW's H called my FWH and begged him to stop seeing her. Didn't work. My H was guilt-filled, contrite with the OWH, but was addicted. Now's not the time to talk to POSOM.
I would appreciate any advice on writing the letters. links or copies of other letters would be good. I am working on a daft now.
She has agreed to go to counselling first thing tomorrow, and says she is afraid of talking to me without a 3rd party involved, because she feels threatened by the fact I may expose the A. So I am unsure as to exactly when and how I do this, but it is going to be ASAP, but practically may not be tonight.
If we go to counselling without me sending the message, how should I approach talking about this issue?
Again, advice very much appreciated. I can't imagine doing this without this resource and your help.
Counselling will do very little good during an active A. Your main priority right now is to expose the A.
up for action. OMGF may be hard to track down, but I have him at work obviously. I am no longer talking about this issue with WW, once you all counselled me to stop I did as gracefully as I could.
mfoss, how do you know the OM is not married? I would call his house using *67 to disguise your # and see who answers. The level of terror coming off your wife makes me suspect there is either a WIFE or a live in GF here. You should be able to find out easy enough.
I am starting XP this afternoon, having cleared time in the schedule and work life. We did talk today, and she was insistent about getting her own place, and wanting to know about financial support for that. I am the income earner, she has raised the kids for years, what guidance do you all have on this... continued thanks from an exhausted guy.
I am considering the reaction I am going to generate from WW, and need to make sure I protect myself and the kids from any danger.
Just expect her to be furious and you won't be disappointed. Don't react to her anger or allow her to scare you. She will rant and rave and try to scare you into submission. Simply tell her "I am sorry you feel so bad. I thought it would be best to spread the good news. " Then leave it at that. Don't fight with her and don't tremble in fear. If she gets abusive, just leave the room but remain calm and don't allow her to upset you.
I do not currently have his number, but I will be getting it. I know him well enough, and feel I would know if he was married. I know he is in some sort of relationship from WW.
I do not currently have his number, but I will be getting it. I know him well enough, and feel I would know if he was married. I know he is in some sort of relationship from WW.
Do you have any mutual friends who might know who the GF is? Could she be living with him?
Why do you think your wife is so terrified of exposure?
Thinking about it, I think he might only have a cell phone. I have no idea in regards to the exposure issue, other than she has used this as the catalyst, and without it, the scheme fails, and having emotional needs met. And maybe even other stuff I do not know about!
She has been acting unstable, and in the past has had an angry "episode", so I want to be ready for the worst.
One more thing, should I leave messages for people who I am not able to get in touch with? Should I ask people to wait until tomorrow to speak to her, as I will be coming home to face her, and would prefer not to have a blowout at the end of the day. She is staying at a mutual friend's this evening.
Thanks thanks thanks...
I am starting XP this afternoon, having cleared time in the schedule and work life. We did talk today, and she was insistent about getting her own place, and wanting to know about financial support for that. I am the income earner, she has raised the kids for years, what guidance do you all have on this... continued thanks from an exhausted guy.
Simple. You are not to finance her departure from your M and family. If she wants her own place, tell her to get it. No money from you. That will give her a dose of reality, at least.
And, umm, any last words about the calls themselves? It seems that the consensus has been to keep it simple:
"My WW is seeing another man. This is destroying our family. I want to save my family and I hope you will help me do this by encouraging WW to stop her adultery and come home to her family."
"OP and WS are having an affair. I love WS and I am committed to doing whatever it takes to repair our marriage and make it better than ever. I'd appreciate any advice you might have."
Anything else?
Can I legally not provide her with access to any money?
It seems very not plan A, but I also had a feeling you would have this opinion.
And, umm, any last words about the calls themselves? It seems that the consensus has been to keep it simple:
"My WW is seeing another man. This is destroying our family. I want to save my family and I hope you will help me do this by encouraging WW to stop her adultery and come home to her family."
"OP and WS are having an affair. I love WS and I am committed to doing whatever it takes to repair our marriage and make it better than ever. I'd appreciate any advice you might have."
Anything else?
Calling is good, but I'd send letters by certified mail. And don't just send to the head of HR, send it to a couple of 'higher-ups'. Mark the letter to show that you are cc'ing it to more than one person so someone doesn't try to dodge addressing the issue.
This link has some good information on exposing to different people (family, work etc).
Affair Exposure 101 You're getting excellent advice from everyone here.
Gg
Can I legally not provide her with access to any money?
It seems very not plan A, but I also had a feeling you would have this opinion.
I am not a lawyer, but I have one to handle my current separation. Here is what I have been told:
Unless and until you have a separation agreement, you are legally obligated to provide access to YOUR HOME. You cannot throw her out. However, if she chooses to leave, you are not obligated to provide her any support. Unless you have specified that in your agreement, of course.
The law may vary according to state, but marriage is a LEGAL covenant. Leaving the marriage, especially to commit adultery (which is ILLEGAL in my state) is not.
That link does not work! I was able to find the post through search:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2082433&page=1But none of the posts linked to from the first post work, and I could not find them in search... argh!
Anyone know where to find this stuff?
Thanks ~
So, you are advocating cutting off the money supply? Will that not:
- ruin any plan A
- hurt my credibility with other relatives, even those who support the marriage might believe that she should have access to funds
And also, not sure how to do since we have a joint account...
As I approach go-tie, a few last questions. Nerves!
If someone responds, "if she is having an A, maybe your marriage is not worth saving", I should say, "I am sorry you feel that way".
?
You are correct. Sorry about that. Let me see if I can find a different link.
Gg
So, you are advocating cutting off the money supply? Will that not:
- ruin any plan A
- hurt my credibility with other relatives, even those who support the marriage might believe that she should have access to funds
And also, not sure how to do since we have a joint account...
I can answer this.
- Plan A is both carrot AND stick. Show her the love you have. But do NOT enable the affair.
- Hurt credibility? What are you talking about? This is YOUR MARRIAGE we're talking about. Do you care more about what relatives think than saving your marriage?
Withdraw all but a few dollars from the joint account. Put it into another account. [This may be rejected by the more experienced folk here].
My goodness this is going to be tough. I need to man up and recognize it.
Getting it out there is to my advantage. Every second is a loss.
Having said that, there is sooo much to consider, and my lack of sleep is not helping me think straight at all. I am sure many people relate to the stress of wanting to take another hour and process a little more information. And some will even disagree with the approach. It looks like I am making a major decision quite quickly. I wonder is people who disagree with this approach would not be likely to give advice here.
I have to say that my gut is telling me to go with your advice, based on the resonance of the experiences.
Ok, I am going to have a stretch and a lie down, and the I am going to hit the button.
One more thing, should I leave messages for people who I am not able to get in touch with?
yes
Should I ask people to wait until tomorrow to speak to her, as I will be coming home to face her, and would prefer not to have a blowout at the end of the day. She is staying at a mutual friend's this evening.
Don't ask them to keep it quiet, because they won't.
So, you are advocating cutting off the money supply? Will that not:
- ruin any plan A
- hurt my credibility with other relatives, even those who support the marriage might believe that she should have access to funds
And also, not sure how to do since we have a joint account...
Nowhere in Plan A are you directed to finance your WWs A. Continue being a pleasant, loving spouse whose only goal is to save your M. Giving your WW money to move out is not saving your M. Let her know this: you love her, your family and your marriage, and you will do whatever it takes to save that. You can't tie her down to the couch, so if she does want to leave you can't stop her. But you're not going to HELP her, either.
Take all of the money out of the account except enough to keep it open. Do this right away, before she gets to it. Open a new account that is in your name only. If she wants money, she'll have to come to you for it and explain why she needs it. And she'll need to provide receipts to prove where she spent every penny. There will be few legitimate reasons to give her money if she moves out. Rent money is unacceptable. Gas money, maybe. Ten bucks a week for gas ought to cover any fuel used to come to you to talk about the M and how to save it. Food money, probably not. Let her know that your marital home is stocked with all the food she needs. To be eaten at HOME. While the two of you are discussing a plan to save your M.
Reality can really set in fast when the WS has to start dealing with the cold financial aspects of the A.
Don't let her tell you that she deserves and portion of family money because she was a SAHM, caring for the kids, and therefore has no funds of 'her own'. You never changed the terms of your M, she did. She should have thought about that before she decided it would be fun to have an A. Obviously she expects you to roll over and go along with her plans to fool around with another man. Don't accept that. Also, be aware that the OM will be happy that 'his woman' has money. He doesn't care where it comes from. However, he
won'tbe happy with the way the A is going if his affair partner suddenly because financially needy, asking him for rent money, being broke and unable to afford to get her groceries, etc. The romantic aspects of the A will suddenly become less rosy. That's your goal, here. Disrupt the A.
Now, she may decide to seek legal cousel to help her get money from you. Fine, let her. That's just more reality for her to have to deal with. The A will become less rosy by the minute.
If you have relatives who are troubled because you won't help your W be wayward, well, I wouldn't worry about them too much. You are on a mission to save your M.
So, you are advocating cutting off the money supply? Will that not:
- ruin any plan A
- hurt my credibility with other relatives, even those who support the marriage might believe that she should have access to funds
Absolutely not. Plan A has nothing to do with financing her affair. If she wants to move out she should not use family money. Your money in any joint accounts SHOULD BE MOVED NOW TO A SAFE PLACE. If given an opportunity she will wipe you out financially.
Additionally, if she wants to leave, she should not be allowed to remove your children without a court order. Your children should not be dragged from their safe home to accommodate an affair. This is how little kids end up molested and abused.
I'm with you mfoss!! I'll be changing my accounts this evening too.
SOLimbo - changing accounts?
ahh bank accounts I guess...
I am sure many people relate to the stress of wanting to take another hour and process a little more information. And some will even disagree with the approach. It looks like I am making a major decision quite quickly. I wonder is people who disagree with this approach would not be likely to give advice here.
mfoss, the reason you don't see people here disagreeing with this approach is because keeping the affair a secret cannot be defended. That is because it only serves to enable the affair and ruins the marriage. Many people over the years have tried to defend another approach without success. It can't be defended because it is a losing proposition. Can you think of any legitimate reason not to expose? I can cite 10 reasons TO expose but can not think of a single good reason NOT TO expose.
Secondly, people always regret not exposing, they don't regret exposing. Most of us who here who are telling you to expose have saved our own marriages. We know it works. Dr. Harley, who has been doing this for 35 years, is adamant about exposure.
Get the job done mfoss. It's the beginning.
So, you are advocating cutting off the money supply? Will that not:
- ruin any plan A
- hurt my credibility with other relatives, even those who support the marriage might believe that she should have access to funds
And also, not sure how to do since we have a joint account...
Nowhere in Plan A are you directed to finance your WWs A. Continue being a pleasant, loving spouse whose only goal is to save your M. Giving your WW money to move out is not saving your M. Let her know this: you love her, your family and your marriage, and you will do whatever it takes to save that. You can't tie her down to the couch, so if she does want to leave you can't stop her. But you're not going to HELP her, either.
Take all of the money out of the account except enough to keep it open. Do this right away, before she gets to it. Open a new account that is in your name only. If she wants money, she'll have to come to you for it and explain why she needs it. And she'll need to provide receipts to prove where she spent every penny. There will be few legitimate reasons to give her money if she moves out. Rent money is unacceptable. Gas money, maybe. Ten bucks a week for gas ought to cover any fuel used to come to you to talk about the M and how to save it. Food money, probably not. Let her know that your marital home is stocked with all the food she needs. To be eaten at HOME. While the two of you are discussing a plan to save your M.
Reality can really set in fast when the WS has to start dealing with the cold financial aspects of the A.
Don't let her tell you that she deserves and portion of family money because she was a SAHM, caring for the kids, and therefore has no funds of 'her own'. You never changed the terms of your M, she did. She should have thought about that before she decided it would be fun to have an A. Obviously she expects you to roll over and go along with her plans to fool around with another man. Don't accept that. Also, be aware that the OM will be happy that 'his woman' has money. He doesn't care where it comes from. However, he
won'tbe happy with the way the A is going if his affair partner suddenly because financially needy, asking him for rent money, being broke and unable to afford to get her groceries, etc. The romantic aspects of the A will suddenly become less rosy. That's your goal, here. Disrupt the A.
Now, she may decide to seek legal cousel to help her get money from you. Fine, let her. That's just more reality for her to have to deal with. The A will become less rosy by the minute.
If you have relatives who are troubled because you won't help your W be wayward, well, I wouldn't worry about them too much. You are on a mission to save your M.
Yes the money is for someone who is actively your wife. If she wants to move out, have a place on her own and a lover, then she's not acting as your wife and therefore has no claim on marital assets.
Those assets are for your wife. As long as she's not willing to be your wife, they are not hers.
They are called marital assets. If she tries that logic, remind her that shes the one acting as if she wants out of the marriage, so why would she want anything to do with the marriage.
Babble back at her and let her know that you are giving her exactly what she wants, freedom from the encumberances of the marriage. No longer will she need to care for the house, no longer will she need to be concerned about the money you earn, no longer will she be dependent upon you.
She has the freedom to earn her own money, pay her own bills and not depend on you for a dime.
By removing the marital assets from her, you are freeing her as she desires.
Hi all -
It's in motion. I only got through half of what I wanted to, as WS hung out at home instead of going to sleep at a friends as planned. Still, lots of good feedback from my first calls, and more planned tmrw.
It was a bit of a curveball to have to deal with a change of plans, and I tried to not let it affect me too much. Some good convo with WS, and some broken. I am exhausted.
Hi all -
It's in motion. I only got through half of what I wanted to, as WS hung out at home instead of going to sleep at a friends as planned. Still, lots of good feedback from my first calls, and more planned tmrw.
It was a bit of a curveball to have to deal with a change of plans, and I tried to not let it affect me too much. Some good convo with WS, and some broken. I am exhausted.
Atta boy, mfoss! Mood follows action, and you'll soon find you're feeling better and more empowered about what you can do about saving your marriage. It may be very hard to do some of the things suggested here, but when you have your doubts, do as I do: have faith.
These people have "been there and done that." And they have the t-shirts to show for it! I have had to do some very unnatural (for me) actions, and looking back, each and every one of them has turned out to be correct!
I'd hate to think where I'd be without these fine people. Oh, wait. I know: alone, afraid, sick and sick at heart. Well, okay, three out of four ain't bad.
Thanks for your support, it really helps.
The rollercoaster of emotions is quite strong. I am not sure if it means much that I slept well last night, finally. I think the hard part is coming up, when WS discovers my actions, and freaks. Will need all my strength to deal with that properly.
Mfoss, she will freak. Don't engage in that battle and don't apologize. She will say things like "I was going to try to work things out, but not now, not after what YOU'VE done". Or she'll say "how can I ever trust you again after this?" which is the biggest joke. Be prepared and stay calm. Your goal is to save your M.
Thanks for that. I am expecting these words.
Is it a good idea to say I believe she is in a fog based on the A? I imagine this will only make her angrier, but does it help on some level for me to be saying this? Or should I just plan A it, without apologies for my actions?
Is it ok for me to say, "I am sorry you feel so upset"? Any advice, links to articles, etc on dealing with this upcoming storm would be appreciated!
Thanks for that. I am expecting these words.
Is it a good idea to say I believe she is in a fog based on the A? I imagine this will only make her angrier, but does it help on some level for me to be saying this? Or should I just plan A it, without apologies for my actions?
Is it ok for me to say, "I am sorry you feel so upset"? Any advice, links to articles, etc on dealing with this upcoming storm would be appreciated!
No. Don't discuss aspects of the fog with her. It's like trying to reason the car keys away from a drunk. She'll probably scream like a banshee when she finds out what you've done.
Good. That means it's working - WSs don't like being exposed. Picture Dracula with the sunlight hitting him. Stay calm. Don't engage in a back and forth with her, because she isn't going to understand you while she's in this alien-state.
I wasn't the 'exposer' in my sitch, so I'll shut up now.
I'm sure some vets will be on here shortly with encouragement for you.
I'm sure some vets will be on here shortly with encouragement for you.
I hope so!
mfoss, just get prepared for her fury. And refuse to let it bother you. Like Maritalbliss said, it is the same as a falling down drunk who is enraged because you took the car keys. Would you try and reason with a falling down drunk? Well, a wayward is exactly the same mentality. She is high on the fumes of her affair.
So, don't let it bother you. She will threaten and rant and rave and try to bully you into stopping your exposures. THIS IS WHY IT IS IMPORTANT TO GET IT ALL DONE TODAY IN ONE FELL SWOOP. She is going to be furious anyway, might as well get your money's worth!
So when she rants and raves, just say "I am sorry you are so upset, I was just spreading the good news. Would you like a potato chip?"
mfoss, are you done with your exposures? Have you sent the letter to the workplace? Tracked down the OM's GF? Told your children? [ALONE!] Told her parents, your parents? This needs to get finished up quickly so you can move your focus to the CARROT of Plan A.
mfoss, just get prepared for her fury. And refuse to let it bother you. Like Maritalbliss said, it is the same as a falling down drunk who is enraged because you took the car keys. Would you try and reason with a falling down drunk? Well, a wayward is exactly the same mentality. She is high on the fumes of her affair.
So, don't let it bother you. She will threaten and rant and rave and try to bully you into stopping your exposures. THIS IS WHY IT IS IMPORTANT TO GET IT ALL DONE TODAY IN ONE FELL SWOOP. She is going to be furious anyway, might as well get your money's worth!
So when she rants and raves, just say "I am sorry you are so upset, I was just spreading the good news. Would you like a potato chip?"
mfoss, are you done with your exposures? Have you sent the letter to the workplace? Tracked down the OM's GF? Told your children? [ALONE!] Told her parents, your parents? This needs to get finished up quickly so you can move your focus to the CARROT of Plan A.
I was hoping you'd chime in Mel.
Listen to these posts, mfoss, and follow them. This is your roadmap to recovery. I've watched too many betrayeds balk at this advice because it seems contrary to what they would consider a 'normal' reaction. These are NOT normal times and they require extraordinary measures. You can do this, mfoss!
Hi ML:
thanks for the advice and response. I have to admit, I am worried about the reaction and how I respond. I want to respond well, and I thank you for your guidance. I will be dealing with an irrational actor it sounds like, so just need to be calm.
I am well into them. They are going really really well. Nothing but support, I am blessed to have such a supportive family. It is going to take time to get them all done, as not everyone is available etc... have lots of messages out there, and getting calls.
Workplace is done.
OM GF I have not been able to get contact info. Working on it. Lot of parents, sibling and friends. Kids are at school.
All guidance and advice welcomed, with gratefulness.
Hi ML:
thanks for the advice and response. I have to admit, I am worried about the reaction and how I respond. I want to respond well, and I thank you for your guidance. I will be dealing with an irrational actor it sounds like, so just need to be calm.
I am well into them. They are going really really well. Nothing but support, I am blessed to have such a supportive family. It is going to take time to get them all done, as not everyone is available etc... have lots of messages out there, and getting calls.
Workplace is done.
OM GF I have not been able to get contact info. Working on it. Lot of parents, sibling and friends. Kids are at school.
All guidance and advice welcomed, with gratefulness.
Get er done, mfoss!! And don't let FEAR of her reaction drive you. She can't hurt you with her anger, but she can bring down your marriage and your family with her affair. Your marriage can survive her temporary anger, it can't survive an affair.
Get the most critical exposures done first. For example, expose in the order of importance, ie: her parents, your parents, close sibs. You don't have to expose to every family member. Just those who are close to your family who may have some influence.
When will you be telling the kids? You do understand this needs to be done ALONE, right? With no forewarning to your wife.
OM GF I have not been able to get contact info.
This is a critical exposure, mfoss. Have you tried calling his house?
Try to find your confidence in what you are doing, she is the one who is doing something wrong!! You are the fighting for the M and giving her a chance to wake up and not make a disatrous mistake here.
When I exposed all I had was phone calls and text messages between my H and his OW. I didn't even know there was such a thing as an "emotional affair", but in my bones I knew that what he was doing was WRONG and my confidence in that didn't waiver for one second when dealing with him or anyone else.
re the OMgf, do you have his cell phone no? have you gotten a report from intelius.org on who the phone belongs to? might be in gf's name...
thanks guys, you are really helping me out.
I have no fear about doing exposure based on her reaction, I just want to react well myself when she does react.
I am pedal to the metal, and have been re-prioritizing my list constantly. The reality is some people are just not available.
OM has his own cellphone, from which he has been texting my W. So, OMGF is a challenge. I have some strategies in mind, but just working through in order of priority.
Have you looked him on FB? maybe you'll get lucky and his profile will be open with gf's name...
In terms of the kids, one of my family members had some advice about that. Essentially, be careful, as they are 8 and 11, and have a limited capacity to process things. Also, practically, it may be hard to get them alone. It may not be. I have yet to decide fully on this one, they are on the list though. Advice welcomed.
Have you looked him on FB? maybe you'll get lucky and his profile will be open with gf's name...
No such luck.
In terms of the kids, one of my family members had some advice about that. Essentially, be careful, as they are 8 and 11, and have a limited capacity to process things. Also, practically, it may be hard to get them alone. It may not be. I have yet to decide fully on this one, they are on the list though. Advice welcomed.
I get so annoyed with the well intentions of friends or family that have ZERO training in what to do to end affairs and what to do to recovery marriages!
Your notion that somehow you might not expose to your children with the TRUTH should show just how foggy your own mind can get. Besides yourself, these kids are the next in line to be effected by the status of your M. They deserve to know the truth!!!!
Kids DO NOT have a limited capacity to understand right and wrong! Unless you have failed to teach them?? Come-on, I think you've instilled the concept of right and wrong in them, right??
Some adults may have a problem with the clear boundaries of right and wrong, but kids fully understand and have a great capacity to GET IT!
Here is Dr. H's take on it.
Some feel that an affair should not be exposed to children. Granted, I would not tell a 3-year old about an affair, simply because a child that young cannot possibly understand what it means. But I would not hesitate to reveal an affair to a child 7 years or older. Exposure to those between those ages should be a matter of discretion.
In terms of the kids, one of my family members had some advice about that. Essentially, be careful, as they are 8 and 11, and have a limited capacity to process things. Also, practically, it may be hard to get them alone. It may not be. I have yet to decide fully on this one, they are on the list though. Advice welcomed.
mfoss, keep in mind that Dr Harley is a clinical psychologist and is experienced in this. Your family member is not. Your children need to be told the TRUTH. Beating around the bush and using weasel words [for example: "mom and dad are having troubles"] will confuse them more and make the problem WORSE. If you minimize this with anything less than the truth, you will be teaching them that it is ok to destroy a marriage and a family over NOTHING. But it is important for them to learn how devastating adultery is.
They need the TRUTH. Kids can deal with the truth, they cannot deal with lies. They should be told that their mother is having an adulterous affair, who the OM is, why adultery is wrong, and that their mother wrongly wants to break up their family for an affair. If you tell them anything less than that, you will make it worse.
Secondly, if you don't tell the truth, your wife WILL tell them LIES. About you. And by not telling them the true facts, your wife will be free to introduce the kids to her "new friend" and teach them that adultery is acceptable. Waywards TYPICALLY bring their kids into the affair as the earliest possible opportunity as a means of normalizing the affair and giving it a false air of respectibility.
If you don't tell your kids the TRUTH, you will leave your kids vulnerable to this assault on their family.
Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home.
___________________________________
A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.
When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.
The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight. here
This is a segment that is sloppily and partially transcribed by me that was on the Dr Laura show. I thought Dr. Laura made some EXCELLENT and profound points about the effects of lying to children about adultery. I don't always agree with her views on adultery, but she is right on in this aspect.
Anyone wants this one hour MP3 clip, email me at ohmelodylane@aol.com
Dr. Laura show [4:25 min into segment - 5-15-08]
Caller: Husband had an affair with good friend for 2 years. Her H ws one of his "buddies."
Dr. Laura: Do you have minor children?
Caller: Yes, we both do
Dr. Laura: They are willing to hurt your kids? Why are they willing to break up the families?
caller: Basically, they said they are not "happy."
Dr L: So that is the explanation for being willing to hurt their kids? They are doing this to be "happy?"
What can I do to possibly help you?
Caller: I need to know what to tell my kids.
Dr. Laura: THE TRUTH. They are breaking up 2 families because they have decided.....
See, I am not of the school where you stand by and do pretend with kids where this is all ok. Because this is NOT OK.
The most important story is that this is NOT OK. sit down with your husband and tell him you are going to explain to our children, in a factual, non hysterical way I am going to explain to the kids the horrible thing you are doing to destroy their family. That you are "not happy" is not sufficient reason to destroy 2 families and I am going to make this clear to them because I want them to grow up understanding this is WRONG.
That is my advice. And i think everybody should be clear this is selfish behavior that is WRONG, vows were made.
Not being "happy" is something you work to turnaround, not something you destroy a family over. If both of these people were to hear this was going to happen they will have second thoughts.
DO not think for a moment you are doing wrong by telling your children this. It is your moral obligation to teach them right from wrong. EVEN when it demonstrates a parent has done wrong. The parent cannot be whitewashed and get away with that - THAT IS WRONG and that does not teach the children
I really hope alot of people hear this. Alot of ppl want to whitewash what they are doing. Kids should know that is your attitude.
But to tell the custodial parent: hey don't make me look bad for my own selfish gain is ABSURD! and is EVIL! We are going to make wrong seem ok. Kids will lose any sense of right and wrong. Kids will be taught that anything is ok as long as it makes me "happy." Kids lose any sense of right or wrong. "well, it makes me happy to use drugs" when I am 12 It makes me "happy" to get on my knees and give 4 6th graders oral sex. That is what they teach their kids.
This is what happens when you whitewash wrongdoing to make no body feel bad which is why I get called MEAN. I get called mean because I say the truth. "Its MEAN to say something is right or wrong; its mean to make somebody feel bad!" Its MEAN to say the truth. People get shut down when they get called "judgmental" when they say the truth. The intent is to shut you down. Well, I don't shut up. Kids don't learn important truths when they allow others to shut them down. We don't help our children when we don't say the truth and support them in saying what is right and wrong.
Funny aside... WW just started the time of the month this AM (she woke me up from a good sleep to get her supplies), *and* had a dental appt this AM.
I do feel sorry for her!
thanks for the advice and response. I have to admit, I am worried about the reaction and how I respond. I want to respond well, and I thank you for your guidance. I will be dealing with an irrational actor it sounds like, so just need to be calm.
Not that long ago I felt like you do now. What's amazing is how much I've come to learn and believe what these people tell me. I now actually have no compunction at all telling people who have even the remotest knowledge of my WW about the affair.
The pain of it no longer owns me. Yes, I feel it, and I recognize it. But I have chosen to be the healthier of the two people engaged in this surreal dance. These people are the lanterns lighting the way to that.
All guidance and advice welcomed, with gratefulness.
Gratitude is an action word. Remember that.
Does anyone have real stories / experience from telling their kids? What should I watch out for?
MFoss,
Have you had a background check done on OM?
Gg
I have not had a background check done...
mfoss, I was able to find the phone number of the OM's W here:
Zabasearch Even the OM's wife was surprised I got their "unlisted" number.
Thanks Shocked, not even sure if they OMGF lives with him. Don't think she does.
Just got my copy of "surviving an affair". Will read it until I pass out from exhaustion.
If you're anything like me, you'll read it cover to cover before you even realize you're tired.
Just taking a break from reading to check in here...
I am surprised that it does not cover exposure at all, it seems to be an important and difficult element that warrants some discussion. Regardless, reading it as fast as I can.
I would still like to hear from anyone who has exposed to the kids, especially around the ages of 8-11.
Just taking a break from reading to check in here...
I am surprised that it does not cover exposure at all, it seems to be an important and difficult element that warrants some discussion. Regardless, reading it as fast as I can.
I would still like to hear from anyone who has exposed to the kids, especially around the ages of 8-11.
mfoss, Dr Harley is rewriting Surviving an Affair to include his suggestions on exposure that he wrote in that newsletter on Exposure. Did you read his newsletter?
I will ask tst or SMB to come talk to you. Many here exposed to their kids.
Mfoss, I just posted on my thread about that very thing. I just exposed to my 7 & 9 yr olds about 2 hours ago. Very tough.
I discussed with each of them individually first. Asked them to tell me what they knew about M. Explained that it means two people agree to love and care for each other their whole lives. Told them that daddy didn't always do a good job of taking care and loving mommy although he loves mommy very much. Told them that mommy has new friends that daddy doesn't like. One of them is a boyfriend and you aren't supposed to have boyfriends when you are married because you promised yourself to just your partner.
Explained that daddy and mommy are trying to fix it as best we can and that they have done NOTHING wrong and that we love them more than anything in the world and will continue to love them more than anything in the world no matter what. I told them that daddy is going to work as hard as he can to make things better at home. I also told them that they could talk to me or mommy anytime they feel they need to about this or anything else for that matter.
By the way, both sons have shared with me that they have been very sad lately because mom doesn't 'do stuff' with them anymore like she used to.
Not sure if it was right/wrong way to do it. Brings tears just typing it now, but I did the best I could without trying to set them against WW. Told them that WW was the best mom in the world and that she loved them more than anything. I do know my little guy is very angry at the boyfriend.
mfoss, I was able to find the phone number of the OM's W here:
Zabasearch Even the OM's wife was surprised I got their "unlisted" number.
I had better luck with
pipl than I did with Zabasearch. Which isn't much, as OM (and oddly enough, OMW) have pretty well covered their tracks.
Sickoflimbo, I will check out your thread. Thanks for hooking me up.
If anyone has more experience with the effects of exposure and children I would welcome that.
Fred_in_VA, I wanted to send you a personal message but you have them disabled in your profile, but please let me say a special thank you to you. When I am able, I will offer support to others like you have to me. I feel your pain, and I know you feel mine.
Fred_in_VA, I wanted to send you a personal message but you have them disabled in your profile, but please let me say a special thank you to you. When I am able, I will offer support to others like you have to me. I feel your pain, and I know you feel mine.
mfoss, I think PMs are disabled system-wide. I know I haven't made any settings changes in that regard.
I am gratified that you found something I said helpful. There is no need to thank me, though. This forum's purpose is to ask for, receive, and give help. Often, we don't know which we're doing at any given time. I am a believer in "paying it forward," though. MB has discussions about our Givers and Takers. I came here very much a Taker. Turning me into a Giver is part of the healing process, I think.
Good luck to you, my friend. You got an earlier start on MB than I did. I fear my road is a much tougher one as a result (Zelmo might tell me that's a GOOD thing).
(You know, the ironic thing is that I found this site very early on after D-Day. I just never bothered to check into the forums until I'd bought SAA and realized it and the site were by one and the same Dr. Harley. By then, I'd LB'd big time and may have ruined any chances of recovering my M).
Fred_in_VA, funnily I almost mentioned "paying it forward" in my message to you. I deleted it as less is more in forums, but funny.
I find it hard not to say thank you in every post, and feel absolute gratefulness towards every poster in my thread.
PMs have been disabled due to the nature and vulnerabilities of the situations on the forums. Makes sense.
"Told them that daddy didn't always do a good job of taking care and loving mommy although he loves mommy very much."
Great job at teaching the COM how to justify having an affair.
"Told them that mommy has new friends that daddy doesn't like."
Cut through the baloney, lessening the impact of having a boyfriend by lumping in the OM with BH not liking mommy's other friends, and making BH sound unreasonable by being mad at for mommy having friends. Kids are taught it's good to have friends.
Why doesn't BH like mom's friends?
Did friends enable the affair, support the affair?
Do kids know why BH does not like these friends?
Do the kids know these friends help mom to cheat on dad?
Do the kids understand why BH does not want mom to see these friends anymore?
"One of them is a boyfriend and you aren't supposed to have boyfriends when you are married because you promised yourself to just your partner. Explained that daddy and mommy are trying to fix it as best we can"
Have you told them that WW will not go NC with the OM/boyfriend and those other friends?
Hi mfoss,
I have only read a few posts on your thread. Mel asked me to come help you with exposing to your children.
I did see that your children are 8 and 11. That is plenty old enough to know why their family is crumbling. My children were ages 6, 8, 11, 13, and 17 when I expose to ALL of them about their daddy's affair.
It was the absolute most painful part of the affair for me.
But it was the most necessary...
for several reasons.
1. I would not have my relationship with my children based on lies. Making up some story about why daddy is leaving means I have to lie. And since children ask questions, I would have to lie some more. If I expect my children to be honest with me, I have to earn their respect by being honest with them. Their lives were turned upside down. They NEEDED to know they could count on someone to be honest.
2. I didn�t want them to ever have the chance to think that their family crumbling was their fault. If children don�t have the truth, their puzzle pieces don�t fit. They are trying to understand, but CAN�T because they are building the wrong puzzle. As BS�s we all know what happens when people lie to us about our lives�we begin to question ourselves. What did I do wrong? Is it my fault? How do I fix this? Why is my gut telling me something isn�t right? Telling the truth to our children prevents them from ever thinking their family�s destruction had anything to do with them. Keep the fault where it belongs�on the wayward spouse. Do NOT allow your children for one minute to think their bare ANY responsibility for this.
3. I was not going to protect FWH from the consequences of his choices and actions. He needed to SEE up close and personal what his choices looked like. He needed to see through the faces of his children what his choices looked like. It stripped away his little fantasy. He thought he could control what the children thought. He tried to spin the truth with them. He tried to manipulate them into thinking what he wanted them to, and he outright lied directly to them. BUT BECAUSE I HAD ARMED THEM WITH THE TRUTH ALREADY, they knew they could trust their gut when it told them daddy was lying. My FWH tells me now that, although he was FURIOUS with me for telling them, it was one of the most important actions I took. Their questions to him were relentless and haunted him.
4. I would be darn sure that my children would not hear the truth from someone who did not love them and were only trying to hurt them. My FWH learned of his mom�s affair from a kid at school who happened to be the son of the OM. He told my FHW in a very cruel way, announcing that they were going to be step-brothers. Can you imagine the SHOCK? What a horrible way for a child to experience D-day!! So much better would it have been for my FWH if that information would have come from a loving, compassionate parent whose only concern was what was best for him. THAT�S what people leave their children open to when they choose to lie to their children about the affair. AND what does it do to YOUR credibility with YOUR children, when their learn the truth from someone other than YOU.
It is good and right to tell your children the truth. It is always wrong to lie�always.
mfoss,
I told my 6 and 8 year-olds..
Daddy and mommy promised to love only each other in the special way that married people do. Daddy has chosen to have a girlfriend now and that is not OK when people are married. This hurts mommy very, very much; and until daddy stops this, he cannot live here at home with me.
I explained the same things in more adult terms for my 11, 13 and 17 year olds.
I answered ALL questions honestly and age appropriately. They knew they could trust me, and that was a critical foundation for them during that time in their lives when all was crumbling around them.
I asked them recently how they felt about being told the truth back then. They looked at me like I was crazy...they wondered what the "other" option was. It appauled them when I told them that some people don't tell their children the truth about affairs. They could not understand why someone would keep that from their children.
I followed up with my children in the months after D-day. When they would tell me how much they were hurting or why does it feel like daddy doesn't love us or why is daddy lying, I responded with things like:
Daddy loves you as best he can right now, but he is blinded by his sin and cannot yet see how much you are hurting. One day, his eyes will be opened to all the destruction around him and he will be so very sorry for how much he hurt you.
These types of HONEST communication open the doors for us as parents to teach right from wrong, consequences from harmful choices, our wrong actions can hurt more than just ourselves.
My children have learned so many valuable lessons all because we kept it honest around here. When my FWH returned home, we continued the honesty with our children, and they have learned about grace, forgiveness, healing...and MB.
"Told them that daddy didn't always do a good job of taking care and loving mommy although he loves mommy very much."
Great job at teaching the COM how to justify having an affair.
"Told them that mommy has new friends that daddy doesn't like."
Cut through the baloney, lessening the impact of having a boyfriend by lumping in the OM with BH not liking mommy's other friends, and making BH sound unreasonable by being mad at for mommy having friends. Kids are taught it's good to have friends.
You didn't actually says these things to your children, did you?
My gosh!!!
Talk about confusing.
Children SEE what you don't tell them. Then they HEAR what you tell them.
And things don't match up.
So they are left
CONFUSED.
Stop this nonsense.
Be that safe place for them. That one person they can hold on to. Not just another person trying to spin things to make themselves feel better.
SexyBear,
Would you recommend anything differently if wayward was still living together all in same house and WW was SAHM? That's my situation and I think I didn't do a good job last night of exposing my kids. The Road gave me a good critique and I would appreciate your guidance too.
Thanks
sexymamambear and mel, thanks for the consideration and info. I can't express how much information helps me, I am wired that way.
I obviously have not done it yet. Circumstances have been very difficult in terms of getting the kids alone, but that could really be seen as excuse making. I feel I am going to "ruin their day", and my natural instinct as a parent is to protect them from harm. But the truth is, harm has been initiated by WW.
It feels like this is going to be one of the harder parts.
It is funny how some of my instincts are to be fair to WW. I realize my first post was exactly about the tension between taking aggressive action and yet not love busting. A confusing and conflicting set of motivations.
And of course my love for my kids, and not wanting to hurt them. They have been hurt already though, and they are going to be hurt more.
I also feel that members of my support system will look poorly upon me doing this, and I fear losing some support from that. But, these people are not experienced in successful recovery, and are probably indirectly enabling the A in all sorts of ways.
As am I if I don't tell the kids.
I have spoken to a couple of people who have gone through this situation, hoping they would be good people to relate to my situation. In some ways they have been, but they have also not succeeded in saving their marriages, so their advice is coming from that position, and therefore not sound for me.
I struggle with getting advice from people, as they all have elements of good advice, mixed with advice that does not support restoring the M. If I am serious about saving the M, I need to listen to people who have succeeded in doing that, not failed.
I also suppose that I am influenced by some of the garbage the WW has been saying, like, I almost left when X or Y, blah blah blah. She did not leave then, because she was thinking clearly, and not in a fog. If only we could have gotten help.
She also expresses a lot of concern and love for me, which is obviously confusing. And I fear telling the kids is going to threaten that (and it will in the immediate term), but I need to realize that I am making a trade off.
I find it interesting how much I am motivated to be nice and fair. The truth is, I need to accept that I am not being mean or unfair but being honest, even if there is hurt.
What a clown show.
I am also realizing that we have to tell the kids something at some point, and there is no benefit to me to do that with WW, as she is fogged, and will wrap all sorts of extra stuff around that.
Also, if my support system says to me "I don't agree with what you did", I can say, "do you agree with what she did"? If you are extending her any consideration, please do the same for me. And through my other actions, they will see my unwavering support, care and love for my children. This won't likely convince them I am doing the right thing, but it makes me more comfortable.
I am also realizing that we have to tell the kids something at some point, and there is no benefit to me to do that with WW, as she is fogged, and will wrap all sorts of extra stuff around that.
I'm wondering if I should say anything to the stepchildren? They live with WW's XH and WW did her best to keep them distanced from me (I helped, of course). I wrote a couple of exposure letters to her XH, but have not spoken with the kids.
I know she talks and texts with them -- almost daily. They know there is an OM. I don't know if XH has told them the details (he's married, has kids, etc.).
This has to have an impact on them. WW already left them once, and now she's demonstrating the same irresponsible behavior again. I just don't know if it's my place to tell them.
Not trying to t/j, but how does one tell stepchildren?
Not trying to t/j, but how does one tell stepchildren?
I am not sure what t/j means, but I think the answer is yes, you tell them.
Not trying to t/j, but how does one tell stepchildren?
I am not sure what t/j means, but I think the answer is yes, you tell them.
I just learned: t/j = "threadjack."
Actually, my question was not if, but "how?"
SMB, thanks so much for posting to mfoss! Those are excellent posts.
She also expresses a lot of concern and love for me, which is obviously confusing. And I fear telling the kids is going to threaten that (and it will in the immediate term), but I need to realize that I am making a trade off.
Her concern and love are words and not actions. She is abandoning her family for an adulterous affair, mfoss. That is not "love." What I think you really mean is that she is saying some nice words to you in order to get you to cooperate with her destructive behavior. But if you cooperate with someone whose goal is the destruction of your marriage, you will have a destroyed marriage. This is why it is important to look at her actions and not her words.
I find it interesting how much I am motivated to be nice and fair. The truth is, I need to accept that I am not being mean or unfair but being honest, even if there is hurt.
There is nothing "fair" about cooperating with the destructive plans of a wayward, mfoss. You should continue to be nice, but if you want to save your marriage, you have to STAND UP FOR IT. Being nice does not = rolling over. BIG DIFFERENCE. It is "nice" to stand up for your marriage and your children's family.
Also, if my support system says to me "I don't agree with what you did", I can say, "do you agree with what she did"? If you are extending her any consideration, please do the same for me. And through my other actions, they will see my unwavering support, care and love for my children. This won't likely convince them I am doing the right thing, but it makes me more comfortable.
mfoss, keep in mind, that Dr. Bill Harley is a psychologist who has been doing this for years and it is HIM that recommends telling the children. Adultery is what harms children, not telling them the truth. Lies poison children, not the truth. Kids can deal with the truth, they can't deal with lies.
I am realizing that I am going to be largely alone in my perspective of trying to save the M (as long as the A exists), except for of course you wonderful people.
I am having trouble prioritizing my next exposure. Should it be:
- people that might take action to support killing the A
- people that will cause stress to the A
?
I am realizing that I am going to be largely alone in my perspective of trying to save the M (as long as the A exists), except for of course you wonderful people.
I am having trouble prioritizing my next exposure. Should it be:
- people that might take action to support killing the A
- people that will cause stress to the A
?
Do them ALL.
I plan on doing them all, just trying to choose between them. I get your point though. I need the encouragement.
I also realize that I need to be more clear about what I say in exposure conversations, I need to be very direct about my intentions, and less apologetic. When I read SickofLimbo's story about his exposure to the kids, and the constructive feedback offered by others, this point is made more clear to me.
I plan on doing them all, just trying to choose between them. I get your point though. I need the encouragement.
I also realize that I need to be more clear about what I say in exposure conversations, I need to be very direct about my intentions, and less apologetic. When I read SickofLimbo's story about his exposure to the kids, and the constructive feedback offered by others, this point is made more clear to me.
Absolutely correct, mfoss. You're learning. And learning fast! Good for you!
Like you, at first I felt tentative and a bit "icky" about going forward and exposing the A. But with the encouragement (and assistance) of the people here, I learned that the best way to attack the A was to -- you guessed it --
attack it.I sometimes wonder about the efficacy of my attack. The only feedback I've received is from WW
demanding that I write letters of apology, recanting my first letters. My answer to that was, of course, not to answer.
I plan on doing them all, just trying to choose between them. I get your point though. I need the encouragement.
mfoss, exposure needs to be done in one day. Are you going down a list and calling these people? Have you done ANY? Are you planning to expose at all?
This may be a petty detail, but it currently looks like I have an opportunity to tell the kids without WS around. When she shows up, should I tell her, or wait for things to naturally come out?
Tell her what? That you've exposed her A to the kids? I'm betting she'll find that out for herself soon enough. No need for you to tell her and x2 the LB.
mfoss, when she shows up tell her you have sat down the kids and told them about her desire to leave the marriage for her affair. Tell her the kids will have lots of questions and that you expect her to answer them HONESTLY because if she doesn't, you will be setting the record straight.
After that, mfoss, you need to get this show on the road and get these exposures DONE. TODAY. Dragging this out in dribs and drabs is not how this is done. It should be done in one fell swoop so you can move onto the CARROT of Plan A. Have you called her parents? Close friends? Exposed to the workplace?
MelodyLane, I started exposing Monday night. I spent all of yesterday exposing. I am on the phone now "dialing for dollars (support)". I would love to be done, but practically the logistics have been a challenge. I should be done with the important people today.
Do I have to stop exposure at some point and go all plan a? I think my position on the issue of the A will need to be consistent through plan A phase, no?
Thanks so much, you MelodyLane have also been so supportive of me.
Thanks so much, you MelodyLane have also been so supportive of me.
MelodyLane is one of the true luminaries on this board, IMO.
I plan on doing them all, just trying to choose between them. I get your point though. I need the encouragement.
mfoss, exposure needs to be done in one day. Are you going down a list and calling these people? Have you done ANY? Are you planning to expose at all?
I was wondering the same thing. I'm getting the feeling that you're spending a great deal of time here, dissecting the concept of exposure. Cut to the chase, mfoos - EMBRACE the concept immediately, and EXPOSE immediately. No foot-dragging.
MelodyLane, I started exposing Monday night. I spent all of yesterday exposing. I am on the phone now "dialing for dollars (support)". I would love to be done, but practically the logistics have been a challenge. I should be done with the important people today.
ok, good! Are these people calling your wife and telling her they know? What has been the fallout?
Do I have to stop exposure at some point and go all plan a? I think my position on the issue of the A will need to be consistent through plan A phase, no?
Exposure IS part of Plan A. You will stop exposure when you are done with your list. Your list should comprise of parents, close friends, siblings, pastor and her EMPLOYER. When you are done, you are done unless there are new developments.
Thanks, Fred!
I have been doing my best. I am finding the support and advice here crucial to informing my actions. I am doing the best I can, but I appreciate all encouragement and constructive criticism, equally.
I do not have 100% visibility into the fall out as in order to expose, I have had to create a situation where we are apart, and there have been all sorts of real life distractions that I let interfere (trying to maintain my professional life as well, and take of the kids etc...)
I know there will be some interesting calls and advice coming to her in the near future.
I am often on the phone while posting. I am getting better at all this stuff with practice.
mfoss, so your wife does not know yet you have exposed the affair?
And I have been trying to feed myseld, and even occasionally get some sleep. I need to be somewhat healthy to have the stength to do this.
We have a LOT of friends. Hence, my questions around prioritization. My current list is 32 names strong. I have done over half, including some good ones like OM work (where I also work part-time).
Kids are right after school, that is THE BIG ONE.
I am getting better at having shorter conversations as well, some of them were quite long. I am getting your advice to hurry!
mfoss, could you trim that list way down? The list should contain CLOSE friends and influential family. What about her parents? Close siblings? close friends? Those are key exposures that will be critical to your success. How about skipping to those?
Thanks for the update, though. I was getting concerned about your progress. You are doing great!
mfoss, think of the A as a vampire. Exposure is the light of day.
You DO know what happens when the light of day falls upon a vampire, don't you?
I don't know what she knows.
She is not totally denying the affair in all cases, but she is not being honest about it to be sure! From her reaction so far, I don't think she has "gotten it" totally yet. she has been avoiding contact with many people who are trying to track her down.
She will freak about the kids, so it is essentially in the mail. I am also wondering about POS (OM), because she reacted so strongly when I said I would call him. I can't decide if it is worth it, most advice here has said no.
p.s. sometimes an exposure target will say: "ok, i will keep this between you and me!" NONONO!! Tell them that would be the worst thing they could do because affairs thrive on secrecy. Just make sure they are clear about that. I have seen too many "exposures" RUINED because the target thought they should keep it a "secret!"
It is a large family! I have spoken to her three mother figures, her dad is scheduled for a meeting tmrw (he works a lot). A lot of siblings and influential friends are in the bag.
I was worried about the "vampire/sunlight" situation, I now am looking forward to it in a weird way.
My exposure "pitch" has gotten better with practice. I :
- tell them truth
- explain my position
- ask for their help specifically
- get on to the next call ASAP
I often find myself debating the logic of giving her some space (because people are rightly concerned for her). I am able to explain how that is enabling the affair, and how that is not acceptable to me.
The drug addict analogy works well.
I don't win every call, but I know I wont. I just get on to the next one.
She will freak about the kids, so it is essentially in the mail. I am also wondering about POS (OM), because she reacted so strongly when I said I would call him. I can't decide if it is worth it, most advice here has said no.
It will be worth it to call him, because she has probably LIED to him about her marriage so you will want to explain that you are VERY MARRIED. [don't bring up this "separation" bullcrap because that is just fogbabble nonsense] I would get this call done TODAY if you can.
Tell him this:
1. you know all about the affair and ask him what his intentions are with your wife.
2. Let him know you are very married and have no intentions of getting divorced.
3. Tell him there is no future with your wife because he will be eternally HATED by your kids and by your in-laws. Tell him the inlaws have been informed of the affair and will never welcome him into their family.
4. Tell him if this ever does get to divorce that you will file on grounds of adultery and will have him called to the stand to give testimony under oath about his affair.
5. You will fight for your marriage
My exposure "pitch" has gotten better with practice. I :
- tell them truth
- explain my position
- ask for their help specifically
- get on to the next call ASAP
I often find myself debating the logic of giving her some space (because people are rightly concerned for her). I am able to explain how that is enabling the affair, and how that is not acceptable to me.
The drug addict analogy works well.
I don't win every call, but I know I wont. I just get on to the next one.
That sounds good! Be sure and tell them the NAME of the OM so they can spit on him when they see him!
The fact that she is so scared of you calling the OM tells me she is doing some serious lying to him. Something like: my H has asked for a D and we are "separating." Calling him up and comparing notes will likely uncover some lies.
mfoss, can you time your most explosive exposures for this afternoon so it all comes falling down on her head at once? For example, finish up any CLOSE parents this afternoon. Then, about an hour before the kids get home, call the OM and have a little come to Jesus with him. He will probably call your wife at that time and she will call you. Don't answer your phone. When your kids get home, tell them the truth.
That way, everything will come crashing down on her TODAY. When she gets home and finds out about the kids and the OM, you can tell her that you have informed EVERYBODY about her affair.
I am working on making it as big and meaningful as possible today / this aft. Refocussing my efforts. Kids are big, and they are on.
I should be clear that she is not totally denying the affair, she is just not being very honest about it. Depends on who she is talking to likely, and what she thinks their response will be ( I would guess).
I don't have his number. I may resort to sending him a message. I am giving his name a lot of publicity.
mfoss, cant you get it from your wifes cell phone bill? What about his work? You can get that #, right?
I just have a feeling that she is scared your contacting the OM will ruin her affair or she wouldn't be so terrified about that.
Yup, I may call him @ work. will check the cell phone bill, excellent idea!
However you get him, I would try to let him know who is calling by disguising your # with *67. He might try to avoid you.
What does this guy do for a living? How old is he?
He works in retail. He is 32.
I just have a feeling that she is scared your contacting the OM will ruin her affair or she wouldn't be so terrified about that.
ITA. The OM is going to start looking at her as a liability and an unnecessary hassle.
I am bagging all sorts of biggies.
ITA. The OM is going to start looking at her as a liability and an unnecessary hassle.
This is the plan.
Flooding the zone. Almost think I could not do the kids.
Except...
that would not be fair to them.
Zelmo (and others):
My position on many aspects of marital therapy has been admittedly controversial when first expressed. His Needs, Her Needs was ripped by many therapists in 1986 when it was first published because they didn't believe that men and women's emotional needs were different. Today, there are very few that believe that anymore.
My position on conflict management (Policy of Joint Agreement) was also roundly criticized by some feminists as giving away women's right to independence. Of course, most of these critics were not in favor of marriage in the first place. But today, the idea of finding mutually adventageous solutions to problems in marriage is main-stream.
And, my position on radical honesty and transparency in marriage, which was definitely not in the tool box of most counselors when I first brought it up, is now becoming much more accepted by therapists working in the trenches.
At first, whenever I came up with a new idea, I'd try it out on the couples I counseled. My goal was always to "do no harm" in my effort to help. I was very concerned about unintended consequences. But as I created methods that were logical outcomes of my basic theory, I found that these methods worked amazingly well every time they were implemented. That's why I can speak with such confidence today. I've personally witnessed thousands of successful outcomes when couples learn to meet each other's emotional needs, learn to make decisions with mutual enthusiastic agreement, and learn to be radically honest with each other.
The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.
An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults. Best wishes,
Dr. Harley
Come on mfoss, the kids need to know. You can do this.
Come on mfoss, the kids need to know. You can do this.
Just waiting for them to come home from school.
DETAILS!!!
I just posted that after having a great exposure call.
I just talked to the kids. It was hard, but it went well. They did not have a lot to say, and I tried to keep it short and to the point, as well as reassuring that I loved them, and would take care of them no matter what. And that (they know this) they have a large family to support them and take care of them.
I named OM, as they know him remotely.
They were not that upset, and felt relieved to be told, I think. I am going to be watching them like a hawk.
Just deciding wether I should contact OM by email, as it is the only contact method I have... I want to be done with exposure now, and get on to plan A.
I also need to be ready for a vampire seeing sunlight. I am a little concerned about her reaction, in that what if she goes off and tries to do something harmful to herself? I have some friends on standby, but I am a little worried.
I must thank you all. Keep the advice coming.
Don't call OM, that would be like Poland calling Germany and politely asking them to leave.
When she starts raging just say "Sorry you are so angry, would you like a potato chip?"
I just posted that after having a great exposure call.
I just talked to the kids. It was hard, but it went well. They did not have a lot to say, and I tried to keep it short and to the point, as well as reassuring that I loved them, and would take care of them no matter what. And that (they know this) they have a large family to support them and take care of them.
I named OM, as they know him remotely.
They were not that upset, and felt relieved to be told, I think. I am going to be watching them like a hawk.
Just deciding wether I should contact OM by email, as it is the only contact method I have... I want to be done with exposure now, and get on to plan A.
I also need to be ready for a vampire seeing sunlight. I am a little concerned about her reaction, in that what if she goes off and tries to do something harmful to herself? I have some friends on standby, but I am a little worried.
I must thank you all. Keep the advice coming.
She's not going to go off on herself. Be ready for her to go off on you, though! Enjoy seeing the sunlight hitting the vampire! Stay calm. Stay loving. Let her know that there is NO WAY you'll roll over for this A and that you're going to do what it takes to save your M.
If there is no other way to contact OM, email him.
Good job with the kiddos, mfoss - you're well on your way to being this week's MB Poster BS for doing it right!
Great job on the exposure!!!! Bravo!!!
We have had WWs pack their bags and scream it's over only to return in an hour or two.
BTW, are any of your exposure targets going to email or call WW to put pressure on her to end her A?
Thanks everyone. I did it with your help.
As I got better at exposure, I made specific requests for people to contact her, and to expect to be ignored, and to ask her to not avoid them.
Just sent an email to OM. I am done with exposure I think, except for those who come to me. Plan A. Just the beginning, I know.
What maritalbliss said!
Mfoss, I am rooting for you! I wish I had come here early, as you have done. I want to see your story end the MB way!
Just deciding wether I should contact OM by email, as it is the only contact method I have... I want to be done with exposure now, and get on to plan A.
CALL HIM UP, mfoss. you cant uncover lies via an email.
I also need to be ready for a vampire seeing sunlight. I am a little concerned about her reaction, in that what if she goes off and tries to do something harmful to herself? I have some friends on standby, but I am a little worried.
Don't get upset. And if she tries to throw you out, DO NOT GO! Tell her no thank you. And don't allow her to take the kids.
You did great, mfoss!! Now call the OM!
I think I am going to be able to stay calm, but it depends on what happens I suppose.
She just got home. She seemed kind of stressed. She has had a lot of calls and messages on her phone while she was at the movies. She is checking her email now, might be a few juicy ones in there too!
Tries to throw me out? Of my own house? I DON'T THINK SO.
There does not seem to be consensus on whether to email OM. I have to confess, I have something drafted, and I think I should just go for the full monty. But appreciate advice as always.
You did great, mfoss!! Now call the OM!
I can't call the OM, as I do not have a number, and he is not working today. Plus, since he works in retail, it is kind of awkward. Plus, I know the owners, and I would feel bad doing that to them.
I will add a line to my email about how it is highly unlikely he is getting the full picture.
Let her take the kids? HAHAHAAHAHAHHHAAHAHA
I don't know if I can stop her from talking to them. I will suggest that she not, especially if she is really upset.
mfoss, my sisters and I chased down my sister's OW. We gave it to her. All we heard from sister's WH was that OW wants nothing to to do with him now that his crazy-a$$ W and sisters confronted her.
I on the other hand texted with my H's OW. Not really much effect at all. THey continued contact.
Talk to that weasel in person/phone!!!
The best advice I've seen in response to the fireworks created from exposure is:
"I will do whatever it takes to save our marriage"
be a broken record with it as needed, and don't engage in her anger.
You've been doing awesome, keep it up! Stay strong!
mfoss, you need to TALK to the OM and compare stories to find out what he is being told. You can't do that in an email. Did you keep the talking points I gave you?
It would also be helpful if some family members visited/called the OM. We have one FWW here whose mother called the OM and scared the crap out of him. He dumped her that day!!
I will have his number in a few days. As much as I want to send him the email, I will hold off for now, I think. One motivation was how freaked out she was last time I mentioned I was going to do this.
so, when she eventually gets to talking to me (I imagine she is emailing OM now), should I open with the fact I told the kids?
I will have his number in a few days. As much as I want to send him the email, I will hold off for now, I think. One motivation was how freaked out she was last time I mentioned I was going to do this.
mfoss, you can call him at work tomorrow. Or drive to his house tonight. Do you know where he lives?
so, when she eventually gets to talking to me (I imagine she is emailing OM now), should I open with the fact I told the kids?
Why don't you let her bring it up with you. Don't try to reason with her. Just tell her that everyone should know about the affair, especially the children since this affects their life too. tell her she can explain to the kids herself why she is busting up their family for an adulterous affair.
Tell her you will not cooperate with any separation schemes, you will only discuss fixing the marriage. If she wants to "separate" she will have to be the one who does the moving. And without the kids.
You are doing great! Be strong and don't allow her to scare you with her anger.
I have to second my sister, SusieQ, here. Confront OM in person!!! The actual A died that day we confronted her (and later in the same day, when I confronted my H, then did a nuclear exposure).
I heard gossip that OW threatened to file a police report against us for 'harassing' her. We had a laugh at that one.
I have been lurking for a while on your thread. I am amazed at what is happening with you. Keep going, and stay strong! Whatever she does, don't show fear. It will not last long.
Confront OM! Drive there tonight if you can and tell him you are FIGHTING for your marriage.
Update, still have not talked with WS about things. She has been avoiding me a bit, and spending some time with the kids, having a shower etc... (she slept at a friends last night). Kids in bed, let's see what happens. She is planning on being on the couch here tonight.
mfoss, please listen to me: I am rooting for you. You are in the position I wish I had been in. Call it living vicariously through you, if you want.
So far, you've been doing great! Yes, it took a little cattle-prodding at times, but that's to be expected. Now, here comes the big test.
Keep your mind focused. Tell yourself, "this is not my wife. This is an alien being who has invaded her body. I will not allow this alien to bait me, sucker-punch me, blindside me or attempt to otherwise keep me from my purpose." Whatever she says to you, just remind yourself that IT'S ALL A LIE.
Smile, be noncommittal, do not get angry, vengeful, arrogant or patronizing. This is NOT your wife.
Stay in this frame of mind, and you will be on top of the situation and no alien being will be able to out-think you.
Go for it, my man! I'm counting on you!
Update, still have not talked with WS about things. She has been avoiding me a bit, and spending some time with the kids, having a shower etc... (she slept at a friends last night).
I HIGHLY doubt she slept at a friends last night, mfoss. Why in the world would she sleep away from home? She is flaunting her affair, mfoss, from your home. You have to put a stop to this. This is unacceptable for her to be catting around like an alley cat in heat while she lives with you and your children. That is outrageous. And it needs to be exposed everywhere.
Update, still have not talked with WS about things. She has been avoiding me a bit, and spending some time with the kids, having a shower etc... (she slept at a friends last night). Kids in bed, let's see what happens. She is planning on being on the couch here tonight.
I would let her know that everyone has been told about her adultery and tell her you know she slept with the OM last night and that this is UNACCEPTABLE. If she wants to sleep with the OM, you can change the locks and tell her everyone will know, even the kids. Your kids need to know this is WHAT she is doing all night.
ok, I am still in SHOCK. mfoss, your wife was out whoring around all night long and comes sauntering home the next day and you act like nothing's wrong?? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? What in the world is going on?
Fred, I certainly hope things work out, and appreciate your support.
Melody, I know she slept at a friends, as I talked to the friend this AM (and exposed some good stuff). This is more of an emotional affair at this point (although I wll not be surprised at all if there are things I do not know), but it is an affair, and it does not make it any less intoxicating for WW. Sadly.
Anyhoo, back to work!
She has no reason to sleep away from home other than an AFFAIR, mfoss. You have been misled.
Fred, I certainly hope things work out, and appreciate your support.
Melody, I know she slept at a friends, as I talked to the friend this AM (and exposed some good stuff).
Not buying it! Was the OM there with her?
No, he was not.
It is a *really* good mutual friend, who disapproves of her actions, even more so now that she has ALL the truth. WW left here and went directly there. OM was also working last night.
Why is WW not wanting to sleep at home sporadically, I don't know, but she is not really balanced right now. I am sure she wants to reinforce it is over, so the relationship can be further enabled.
Kids are in bed. Finally we talk. It comes up one of her brothers has called her, "surprisingly". I mention it is not a surprise, since I spoke with him earlier today. Alien mode ensued.
One thing she said "I need to talk to my family and others as you are talking [censored]". I said, actually, I would love for you to talk to your family, in fact, many of them feel like you are avoiding them. Specifically, these three people I spoke with today feel like you are avoiding them.
"Who?"
named three people. alien mode.
I went to the bathroom at some point. Came back to her on the phone crying waving me away.
She still does not know the kids know.
I will let the veterans correct me, but I think you should not be "leading with your chin," so to speak, but rather let her discover who has been told. Your job at this point is to Plan A her big time, while deflecting and avoiding Love Busters (LB) and Disrespectful Judgments (DJ). The sunshine on the vampire should come from every direction BUT yours. If she confronts you about blabbing, you should simply acknowledge it and then change the subject.
Didn't I read someone give the example, "But honey, I thought I was just spreading the good news! Want a potato chip?"
I feel that I should email OM. My reasoning is to "flood the zone" and create the most amount of stress that I can on that relationship, RIGHT NOW. Lots of other things are "in the mail", but I feel I have a chance at making him bail out now if I hit him, even if it is email.
I dont know about a physical confrontation. I am not afraid of it, but it seems hard to pull off anytime soon.
what do y'all think?
I will let the veterans correct me, but I think you should not be "leading with your chin," so to speak, but rather let her discover who has been told. Your job at this point is to Plan A her big time, while deflecting and avoiding Love Busters (LB) and Disrespectful Judgments (DJ). The sunshine on the vampire should come from every direction BUT yours. If she confronts you about blabbing, you should simply acknowledge it and then change the subject.
Didn't I read someone give the example, "But honey, I thought I was just spreading the good news! Want a potato chip?"
Cool, and very helpful. I want to avoid LB, hence my motivation to hit OM through email. I can see her mind explode as I offer to do nice things for her, and offer that I take responsibility (but not blame) for the situation.
Veterans?
I also have reason to believe OM is getting some chills in his feet, and I want to strike now.
Cool, and very helpful. I want to avoid LB, hence my motivation to hit OM through email. I can see her mind explode as I offer to do nice things for her, and offer that I take responsibility (but not blame) for the situation.
Veterans?
Never forget -- not for one moment -- that your WW is in a fog. THAT'S why you can expose on one hand and Plan A on the other. She wants to be very selective in what she sees, hears and believes. If you deny something, she'll think you're lying. If you agree with her, she'll get angry. There's no point in be logical with some who has let all logic fly out the window. Expose from one room and Plan A from another...
ummmmm...excuse me? You think sending him an EMAIL is "a strike"????
oooooh a scary email????
GET SOME BALLS AND CALL HIM...TELL HIM TO STAY THE F AWAY FROM YOUR WIFE.
That sounded harsh....but really MFoss -- you need to be stronger in a man-to-man situation.
Be the alpha. This is your WIFE.
Ask him what his intentions are with your wife? Tell him you are going to destroy his world the way he has destroyed your childrens'....Tell him to stay away from your family....
I dont have his number. This A is less than two weeks old, and he is getting chills. I am balancing:
- not hitting him for a few days, but on the phone
- getting him now, while all the other exposure is happening, I feel he may just bail, and job done; I can always call him in three days as well if needed
But, I am asking y'all cause I don't know!
More alien interaction. Nothing notable, other than, "would you like a potato chip"?
NOW. And in person, all the better! POSOM probably will freak out when he sees you, and tries to run away.
You have nothing to fear as long as you abide by the law (not breaking/entering, battery/assault, etc).
That's exactly what OW did when we drove up to her house, just as she was driving out. She RAN. We chased her down to a gas station, and we confronted her there.
Emailing him is not going to do the trick. It's not going to scare him away. Doing it that way actually seems wimpy, if you ask me.
mfoss, please ditch the email. He will just laugh and send it around for his friends to laugh at. The best plan is a face to face visit or a phone call. Nor do I believe for a second that this is a 2 week affair.
Cool, and very helpful. I want to avoid LB, hence my motivation to hit OM through email.
mfoss, exposure is a lovebuster, but if you don't do it right and do it effectively, you will have lovebusted TO NO AVAIL. If you are going to do it, then there needs to be a PAYOFF. There is no reason whatsoever to send the OM an email if has no effect. What will have effect is a face to face or a phone call.
Face to face or a phone call seems unlikely in the near term, so email is my only option in the next few days. I have gone through the swing of emotions about seeing him, and I would be ready to do it if I could get him.
I do know with a high level of confidence the facts about the term of the relationship.
I also know he is wavering already, and I want to push him. I am not sure if he know his work knows, and I would like to tell him that. And other things. And as soon as possible. Hence my thinking around the email.
But I hear you guys, and I trust you. So keep the advice coming, and I will keep trying to make it happen one way or another.
Just had an idea to get his number. In progress. Thinking outside the box.
mfoss, you need to TALK to the OM and compare stories to find out what he is being told. You can't do that in an email. Did you keep the talking points I gave you?
Yes, mfoss. If you know where OM works you've got to confront him personally. Email just won't have the same impact. My FWH ignored OWH's emails.
Fred, I certainly hope things work out, and appreciate your support.
Melody, I know she slept at a friends, as I talked to the friend this AM (and exposed some good stuff). This is more of an emotional affair at this point (although I wll not be surprised at all if there are things I do not know), but it is an affair, and it does not make it any less intoxicating for WW. Sadly.
Anyhoo, back to work!
I wouldn't buy the friend's word. You may have been exposing to the friend, and the friend could have been on the other end of the phone, rolling her eyes and shining you on. Women don't typically operate that way, mfoss. They don't leave their children and stay overnight at a friend's house unless they're in the process of physically moving out.
ummmmm...excuse me? You think sending him an EMAIL is "a strike"????
oooooh a scary email????
GET SOME BALLS AND CALL HIM...TELL HIM TO STAY THE F AWAY FROM YOUR WIFE.
Huzzah! What she said, mfoss. You know what? My FHW deleted OWH's emails and went on his merry adulterous way! Even a personal call didn't work, the addiction was so great! My H had to be exposed to me and at work for the fog to lift!
GO SEE HIM. TELL HIM TO LEAVE YOUR WIFE THE HELL ALONE OR FACE THE CONSEQUENCES.
Face to face or a phone call seems unlikely in the near term, so email is my only option in the next few days. I have gone through the swing of emotions about seeing him, and I would be ready to do it if I could get him.
I do know with a high level of confidence the facts about the term of the relationship.
I also know he is wavering already, and I want to push him. I am not sure if he know his work knows, and I would like to tell him that. And other things. And as soon as possible. Hence my thinking around the email.
But I hear you guys, and I trust you. So keep the advice coming, and I will keep trying to make it happen one way or another.
How do you know he is wavering?
You know where he works. It's a public place. You can call there and find out when he will be working. Go there then.
He does not work again until Sunday.
I suspect he may be wavering based on some information I have from an independant source. He is not liking exposure very much, and he has yet to really get a sense of what is in the bag. Hence, by outlining that, I feel I can make some progress. I also know he is in an active relationship, and that this is a big concern. Email is not ideal I know. Balancing the medium with timing.
The friend is totally trustworthy. She has been through what I have been through herself recently (she was BS), and so it is all on the table. WW does not like speaking to her that much, but it is a convenient space away. No doubt that she wants to move out and get her own place, she states this repeatedly.
I am trying to get his number every way I know how.
I also know he is in an active relationship, and that this is a big concern. .
Can you find out to who? Does he have a facebook account?
She has just informed me that she is telling OM that she will not have any contact with him until Jan 1. She has given me his phone number, and has agreed to let me speak to him.
She maintains that this will change nothing in her attitude.
She does not know about the kids knowing still.
Thoughts?
She has just informed me that she is telling OM that she will not have any contact with him until Jan 1. She has given me his phone number, and has agreed to let me speak to him.
She maintains that this will change nothing in her attitude.
She does not know about the kids knowing still.
Thoughts?
Expect that she has now warned OM that you will call. Your call now will probably amount to teaching a pig to sing. You will wind up frustrated and the pig will just be annoyed.
She's trying to pacify you.
Temporary cease fire over Christmas so she still gets all her cozy fuzzy EN's met.
This is NOTHING.
Are you able to verify that this is REALLY the OM?
You truly would not believe the lengths WW will go to to protect their affairs. She could have someone posing as OM. I would trust NOTHING that has her as the source...
You said you know the owners of his store. Have you contacted them? Why couldn't they give you his phone number?
mfoss, my biggest concern is her sleeping elsewhere. Is there some reason you are cooperating with this? Because the only reason she would sleep elsewhere is so she can conduct her affair. If she didn't see her OM the other night, I am sure she is setting the stage to do so.
There is something big MISSING in this story and I can't put my finger on it. There are alot of missing pieces.
WHY is she spending the night away? What is the deal with that?
MLANE: Well, she is not really stable to be honest. It's a dynamic situation. She has already expressed a desire to sleep here, but she does not want to sleep with me. I have offered her the master bed, we will see what she says.
In terms of cooperating, I would love to know what you think I should do to stop her.
Many developments. Thinking things through and trying to prepare for what is next.
I have contacted the owners of the store, and they were considering giving me his number.
I am certainly suspicious of all this. Trying to process. There may be more than one OM. Who knows, just need to keep on it. Likely still going to be getting worse than better soon.
Goal is recovered. Baby steps along the way.
I agree with MelodyLane (I don't think I've ever disagreed with her, to tell the truth). Something smells fishy here, and it ain't salmon.
MLANE: Well, she is not really stable to be honest. It's a dynamic situation. She has already expressed a desire to sleep here, but she does not want to sleep with me. I have offered her the master bed, we will see what she says.
With you, right? I wouldn't vacate your bed for her.
But I also would not tolerate this sleeping around bullcrap. I would let her know that will not work. If she is going to enjoy the benefits of marriage, then she needs to sleep there, too. Your kids should not be a witness to their own mother catting around like an alley cat in heat. If she does it again, change the locks on her and get a separation order on her. There is no other reason for her to sleep away than to pursue OM and that is unacceptable and ABUSIVE.
[quote=mfoss2212]
Many developments. Thinking things through and trying to prepare for what is next.
Did you look in the phone book? Did you look him up in ppl.com or intelius.com?
Yes I tried the phone book and online. No dice.
Your WW gave you the OM's number and you tried online phone search but nothing came up? Like others wrote - it is a ruse.
Gg
No sorry, I have his number now. I am going to call him. Working on the points to cover. Going back through your posts to find advice on this.
Good morning wonderful people. best sleep I have had in a while, so nice to feel somewhat normal at times. I have certainly been running on fumes most of the last few days. I have many things I would like your counsel on, so here goes:
- Policy of no contact
So she has setup this situation where she can now say she has compromised to my request for ending the affair / establishing no contact. Obviously it is a farce, as it is temporary (Jan 1).
I am going to make it clear to OM that I expect no contact for life, should I make this a big deal with her as well? I am kind of expecting that they will not be able to keep no contact up for long (or at least she won't), and that I will easily catch them. I will be clear in establishing that no contact is NO contact.
Also, I suspect there may be other EA's in hiding, or that she may pursue EA's in the interim with other's to meet her needs. Obviously this is unacceptable to me, but what can I do?
- Positioning around the temporary affair restraining order through the support network, esp her key supporters
I know the reason she has taken this action as a direct result of exposure pressure, and to minimize the public perception of the relevance of the affair. I will be no doubt speaking to people involved in regards to this development, what should I say?
More later - thanks so much in advance. Another busy day.
So she has setup this situation where she can now say she has compromised to my request for ending the affair / establishing no contact. Obviously it is a farce, as it is temporary (Jan 1).
It's obviously a farce. I wouldn't give it credence by discussing it, well maybe I might utter a dismissive "whatever - do you want a potato chip?".
Some new info, looks like another older EA/PA. Hard usable evidence (without exposing my single source) is lacking at the moment. Might be able to get some. Walks like a duck, I know, but not sure if I should incorporate this into my exposures.
Her response to exposures about the affair is that they are just friends, and I am in denial that it is is over. Vampire speak, but still, mutual parties are confused. I guess the truth comes out in the long run.
Some development!
Not sure what to do.
Don't give up your source of info! Prepare other means of information gathering.
Don't give up your source of info! Prepare other means of information gathering.
Right. This makes sense, but it makes things harder. So be it.
Prepping for a big day of exposure surprises (for her) and vampire like responding. It is getting much clearer, and the advice received here has been invaluable.
BB, unfortunately, he has told his wife tonight that he plans on exposing the affair, so time is of the essence. Additionally, his wife has already admitted to him she is having an affair with this man, so while additional proof would be great, it is not essential for his purposes.
Everybody loves to give advice. Only three of the several dozen I spoke to gave me good advice; the rest was crap.
What a rude thing to say.
I think there is a misunderstanding here.
Point being, advice from outside of the MB community is often not helpful towards restoring the relationship, especially when advice givers have been speaking to a vampire alien!
That's true mfoss. IRL most people don't have a clue how this all works. It sure is an eye opener when you can see it all written down (in Dr Harley's books). ALOT of MCs don't have a clue either. So as far as outside advice, filter it. Stick with the MB plan.
Just re-read the entire thread, and I realize how the first advice you all gave was so right. I have not executed perfectly, but I am all in from an effort standpoint, and using your principles to guide me.
I realize that talking to a vampire is not productive, unless you are showing her more light.
The longer you are here the more you'll understand that all A's are the same. The WSs act the same and say the same things. The important point is that the same things are necessary for R in most all A's too. The A has to end, NC for life, extraordinary precautions need to be put into place and 15 hrs per week together to meet eachother's needs. Of course LBs HAVE to be eliminated. That is HUGE. Love cannot return if LBs are draining the love. But people CAN fall back in love with eachother like in the beginning!! The WS just needs to get a glimpse of that possibility.
I've gotten ahead of the game for you mfoss, but I do want you to know that the "plan" does work. It makes sense.It's logical actually. Keep doing what you're doing.
Thanks MicheleG. I hope to make it to the next stage of the process. Not because I feel it will be easier or less work, but because I want to save my M.
So, a very good day on the whole. Tomorrow is going to be even better, as I will be able to physically confront the OM and cross that off my list. Lots more details, but must get back to the tasks at hand.
Thanks for your advice to date, I am so glad I found you all. I look forward to giving back to the community when I can.
Tomorrow is going to be even better, as I will be able to physically confront the OM and cross that off my list.
Mfoss, enjoy your day tomorrow, but not too much. Stay out of jail my friend. POSOM is not worth it.
I saved my talk with OM until the very end because I knew I would enjoy that one. Mine was over the phone and didn't work out like I planned, but it definitely made me (my taker?) feel a lot better this last week. I also looked forward to it and honestly, I did enjoy it.
Yeah mfoss, remember to keep your hands to yourself.
mfoss, my advice to you, such as it is that I have to give, is to remember that YOU ARE THE BETTER MAN. So behave like it. One of the things that attracted my wife to me was that I was able to keep my cool in the midst of a very tough and tense situation.
We met shortly after she'd broken it off with a man with whom she'd had a one year relationship. I had been invited to her place for a cup of coffee, when XBF showed up at her place and started ranting and raving, and at one point even made some "in your face" comments to and about me. Rather than get baited, I stayed calm and measured, and in the end he wound up looking like a fool and I the sane, rational one.
This is how you get the upper hand. Being a man doesn't have to mean fists and swear words. It means knowing how to exhibit grace under fire. When you confront OM, remain calm and speak in an even -- but serious -- voice. Let the OM know that you are ALL BUSINESS. That you are 100% committed to your marriage and his little immature and selfish behavior are just a trifle that will be thrown out with the day's trash.
Go get 'em, mfoss. Taking the high road does not mean having to be a door mat.
I will not soon forget the look on his face when he saw me. It is done. Went well (as well as these things can go).
More later, rest now.
Can't wait to hear about it....
I went to his workplace, which is a retail store. It was quite busy, and when I arrived he was the only one there, the other two staff were off on a break. When he saw me, he had a look of terror and surprise. As he was busy, I just stood off to the side, and waited. He was kind of flustered to be sure.
Eventually the other staff, came back, and we went for a walk around the corner. I asked how his girlfriend was, and he said "fine", and I said, that is not what I have heard.
I was dead calm, and to the point, with a menacing tone. I was very clear about who all knew, his face fell upon realizing the extent of the exposure.
I demanded no contact, and warned him that *any* contact from this point forward would attract more undesired attention and exposure from me. I mentioned the fact that I might call him as a witness in a divorce proceeding etc...
He didn't say too much. He did say sorry several times. He seemed genuinely sorry and shocked, and scared.
At the end, I got re-stated and emphasized no contact, and he seemed almost enthusiastic about it.
Who knows what will happen! I feel that he may actually go no contact, but I am obviously preparing for the alternate response.
Oddly, I am no in the situation where I have exposed OM and the kids, and WW has no idea about either, yet.
I need to regroup my thoughts, and consider the next steps. Advice welcomed as always.
Mfoss,
Excellent - that is the way to approach OM. Your WW is going to blow a gasket but she chose the behavior therefore she chose the consequence. Have you checked out the reverse fogbabble link?
Reverse Fog Babble
Oddly enough gg, I was just reading the reverse babble thread. Serendipity.
I have been getting a LOT of babble already, so I am becoming well acquainted with it. As a result of the support here, I have become fairly good at "handling" babble. Still, I am preparing for the inevitable nuclear onslaught when exposure is discovered.
Particularly painful is when she tells our friends babble. I have to find a better way to deal with this. Should I just not concern myself with it?
Prepare for the worst sort of venom from your WW.
The OM seemed...calm. That's weird, but oh well.
The OM seemed...calm. That's weird, but oh well.
I was calm. He was not.
I told him to remove her as a fbook friend ASAP. Will be interesting to see if that happens,
I meant, calm enough from how you posted.
Be prepared for WW's venom, like i said.
Yeah, I used to be more worried about the venom a few days ago. Having heard a lot of babble, I figure it is just going to be more intense.
He has removed her as a FB friend! She has not yet noticed, as you don't get notified when someone removes you.
Babble and venom took on a whole new meaning after my exposure and calling OM and OMW. Brace yourself and think "Charlie Brown's Teacher".
WTG mfoss. Great job!
Your strong actions will get to her even though she'll rant about this. You didn't react like a neanderthal, you acted like a man standing up for his M. Any woman would take notice, even a WW.
You're doing great.
Just exposed OM's agreement to no contact. Heavy alien mode. You were right!
It is hard (and not constructive) to be a little smug about how things are playing out. Fortunately, I am able to feel some empathy for her (and know thanks to you to ignore what she is saying) which is probably a good sign that I might be able to save this M.
It will be a LOT of work. I am giving it my best.
Your encouragement, kind words and advice have been crucial.
ok mfoss now do a bit of plan Aing(carrot style). Maybe take her a cup of coffee in the morning or get the trash out without her asking, etc. Do some things around the house that she's been asking you to do. Don't expect much of a "thank you" from her, but she WILL notice and it will BOGGLE her mind. Just try to meet whatever need she will let you.
I have been plan A'ing as much as I can. She asked me not make her coffee in the AM, as I don't know how she likes it... etc...
I plan on assessing her emotional needs using the questionnaire, and developing a strategy for each need. Right now, it may not matter, as it is alien time!
I appreciate that I need to hit Plan A hard though. I have been making all sorts of preparations for this, but it will be difficult I am sure.
Hi all -
It looks like I may have killed the A / scared OM into NC. WW is not happy about this, naturally.
I am struggling with balancing the tension between deposits to LB$, avoiding LBs, and ongoing exposure.
For instance, WW does still not know that I have told the kids about OM. It has not come up, and I received advice to not flaunt it, but work it in naturally. Should I make a point of it now?
Also, I am unsure about what to do with some of the people she is using for support. Should I approach them and give them my side? Is that a good use of my time, or is that vengeful and lovebusting.
I desperately want to start to try and meet her ENs and make LB$ deposits, but I am not sure she is in the right frame of mind to not just lash out at them.
I would appreciate your guidance.
I desperately want to start to try and meet her ENs and make LB$ deposits, but I am not sure she is in the right frame of mind to not just lash out at them.
I would appreciate your guidance.
First, do not do anything under the influence of "desperate".
Take slow deep breaths and lift some weights if you feel "desperate".
Things you can do (with ZERO expectation of gratitude from the alien).
1. Play music while at home instead of watching TV.
2. Bring flowers, but do not give them directly to WW. Just put them in a vase and walk away. If she says anything; "I just felt like having flowers. I like flowers."
3. Make the bed.
4. Buy a pizza.
5. Fill her car with gas while she is sleeping.
6. Hum or sing Christmas carols.
7. Get a new haircut and splash on after shave.
8. If you normally dress with casual clothing, dress up a bit. If you normally wear business attire, wear a Hawaiian shirt. Mix it up as far as your appearance goes.
9. Take the pets to be groomed. Or groom them yourself.
10. Ask "Is there anything I can do for you today?" , every morning. If she responds with a sour note, you respond; "Let me know if you change your mind." ... then get busy doing something.
The nicer and more generous you are, the crabbier she may get ... which means she is NOTICING !
I love that list!
yes, I think she know about the exposure to the children now, mfoss...
For instance, WW does still not know that I have told the kids about OM. It has not come up, and I received advice to not flaunt it, but work it in naturally. Should I make a point of it now?
I would just wait for the topic to come up. Then say, 'oh, yeah, well the kids will never accept him anyway, since they know he was having an affair with you - a married woman, and they think that is sick.'
Her:'4$%#Q%$$#V$ % Q$ !'
You: "Well, you don't expect me to let my kids grow up thinking it's ok to commit adultery, do you?"
Throw in a hug and a kiss, and leave the room.
Also, I am unsure about what to do with some of the people she is using for support. Should I approach them and give them my side? Is that a good use of my time, or is that vengeful and lovebusting.
By all means, talk to them!
"Hi, it's mfoss. I guess you know by now that WW and I are trying to figure out what to do with our marriage. I know that if I was trying to help
my friend, I'd want to know all the facts, so I could give the best advice possible. So, I figured you'd want to know, too. So here's what happened..."
By all means, talk to them!
"Hi, it's mfoss. I guess you know by now that WW and I are trying to figure out what to do with our marriage. I know that if I was trying to help my friend, I'd want to know all the facts, so I could give the best advice possible. So, I figured you'd want to know, too. So here's what happened..."
My challenge is how high a priority I make this.
As you know, life is very challenging right now from a time perspective, and so I am always asking myself "what is the best thing for me to do next". It is usually apparent, however, in this case, it is not clear to me where the importance of continuing exposure (which could be seen as love busting) and the counter activity of making LB$ deposits reconcile. My tendency is to expose more now, and get to LB$ deposits second, but I am not 100% sure, and would love to hear more opinions on this. Thanks!
Well, my feeling is that you just got done confronting OM. So exposure is kind of 'current', i.e., still in the air. In that vein, continuing exposure is merely a continuation of your plan - not going out hunting to see who else you revenge her with.
[quote=mfoss2212
As you know, life is very challenging right now from a time perspective, and so I am always asking myself "what is the best thing for me to do next". It is usually apparent, however, in this case, it is not clear to me where the importance of continuing exposure (which could be seen as love busting) and the counter activity of making LB$ deposits reconcile. My tendency is to expose more now, and get to LB$ deposits second, but I am not 100% sure, and would love to hear more opinions on this. Thanks! [/quote]
I just don't look at exposure as a LB or as punishment to the WS. Maybe if, ten years down the road, after the A is long over, you expose her to an old straight-laced college friend because you were feeling cranky that day...that would be a LB to me. But exposure in intended to expose the A to the people who can help kill it. You aren't LBing your WW, you are helping expose a terrible harm that she is placing on you, her and your M in order to save your M.
Great perspective mbliss et al.
I suppose I am keen to start making some LB$ deposits, driven by my awareness of my poor performance in the relationship, for which I accept responsibility, but not blame.
This "guilt" makes me sensitive towards anything that could be seen as lovebusting, which is not healthy, especially when it comes to exposure.
I am very aware that exposure has been a very effective approach for me (and many of you historically), and that I must do a complete job and not shy away from it.
WW is certainly choosing to spend time with people who I have not exposed to, and that is telling. I am not doing anyone any favours by avoiding these conversations, as tough as they might be.
My turn to comment in your thread, mfoss. Do you know these people she is spending time with? And how is it she is able to spend time with them, anyway? Maybe it's just me, but any time not spent together it seems to me, should be spent strictly at work and/or somewhere where there is some form of supervision. Otherwise it's dangerous territory.
I applaud you for being so willing to Plan A. It sounds like you can do it (an earlier post spoke of "having the entire MB board behind" us. It's true. I was re-reading my thread earlier, and I vividly recall typing furiously as WW was "moving out," giving a "blow by blow" account, so to speak, and getting real-time responses. It literally helped keep me sane.
Remember, mfoss, we are here, behind you and with you.
I am struggling with getting quality time together right now, what with work, kids, and ongoing exposure. She still claims she can not sleep here (but does some nights). I am able to get her to spend a lot of time here at night, and come back first thing in the AM for the kids. I also track her travels very closely, and OM is not in the picture any more. There may be more OM though, I can't discount that possibility. They may be in the past, but she may be hoping to restore those relationships.
I am aware that her story changes depending on who she is talking to, and that there may be other EA's out there. Fortunately, the people she is most comfortable talking to are the ones who are involved in those dynamics, so it is very easy for me to keep tabs on things and learn more.
And, we have been making some progress. I have started sharing feelings with her, and making LB$ deposits where I can / am allowed to.
We have been to two counsellors to evaluate them, and it looks like we have selected one to move forward with. I know the limited value of counselling at this stage, but it is something constructive we are doing together. And I am benefitting personally from it.
I am coming to terms with the LB$ and exposure tension, and getting better at it with your support and guidance. So thank you all!
I have a question for you all, what is your WS "coming out of the fog" story? How sudden is it? Does it vary? My sense is that it probably starts and progresses slowly, and is quite prone to relapses, but I am interested in hearing your experiences.
Thanks ~
From what I have seen here it varies. Right after Dday my FWH moved quickly in trying to save M. I really didn't do anything as I was planning on D him. I didn't know about MB at the time. We went to MC (only because I thought it would fail and wanted to be be able to tell the kids I tried). You can ask your MC if he/she can use the MB program. My MC had it but I didn't know about to ask for it. My FWH liked this site better than going to MC. We followed the program on our own and our M is now recovered.
Gg
For a month before D-Day, my H would come home, in a foul and critical mood. I knew something was bothering him, and ASSumed it was the kids and me getting on his nerves. After coming to MB I realize that he was in withdrawal as well as dealing with the realization that things were starting to blow up. (OWH was emailing & texting him.)
I found our MC. When I scheduled the first appt., I said "Before we schedule a time with you, I want to ask you one thing: Do you believe that the BS deserves to have all of their questions answered?" (If he said 'no' I wouldn't have set a time with him.) He agreed that it was a part of healing for the BS to have ALL questions answered to their satisfaction. So I scheduled. We went for about 1/2 year, but we're so concentrated on our M we felt we could stop going. My only concern at this point is possibly needing counselling to overcome my occasional AO, LBs etc.
I feel like I am making some mistakes around talking to our supporting friends and family.
Essentially, I often find myself having to be less than honest about what I am doing in terms of meeting with or talking to people. I am doing this because I do not want WW to call the people before I get to them. This approach has been given to me here, but I am struggling with the LB component of not being honest, and I am not sure if at this point I should just be totally honest.
Thoughts?
mfoss, I have always found the truth to be the best policy. For one, you don't have to remember what lie you told to whom. It may seem uncomfortable to say, "I am trying to save my marriage, and it's very difficult and painful for me. But I think you should know the facts." Keep in mind that your WW will try to cloud the issue, by saying the OM isn't really the issue, or that you're off your rocker, or anything like that.
You should just remain calm, stick to your guns, and let folks know that you have facts and evidence and that you hope they will give you their advice (NOT their sympathy) and support in your efforts to save your M.
Everything about this seems to go against the principles we hold dear. But then, an A goes against them too, so unusual times require unusual tactics.
mfoss,
Are these conversations due to your exposing or are they just general conversations? It sounds like you are still exposing and you really should be wrapping that up. You have gotten the most influential exposures done right? You don't have to expose to EVERY blood relative or friend. However if the topic comes up over the holidays then the truth is the best policy. Short and sweet like Fred said.
You need to finish that part of the plan up. Then eliminate LBs. Work on improving you and meet her ENs.
My exposure has gone on longer than I would like, partially because of practical circumstances, and partially based on new information that I have discovered. So, it is a necessity, as much as I do not want it to be. I am getting better at it though!
I appreciate the value meeting ENs and eliminating LBs, and I am doing what I can in that department in the interim.
Lots of hard work, but I feel I am making progress for sure. Thanks very much to you all!
Better to of exposed late then never to of exposed or do an incomplete exposure.
Hi all - things are going better, not in recovery yet, but inching forwards. It looks like OM is out of the picture for good (fingers crossed). I am hitting plan A hard! I was looking forward to it, and I do generally enjoy it, but it can be a lot tougher than I thought it would be! I was obviously being foolish...
Anyways, the reason for my post here tonight is that it is WW's birthday in the next week, and I am struggling with gift ideas. We spend the holidays with a big family group, and we will not have much private time alone.
So, I thought I would ask for advice. She is still very much on the fence in terms or working on the M, so I think I need to be discreet in whatever I do so that it does not cause her public stress with the family.
I was thinking about a personalizing a nice shirt for her, and maybe a massage at a spa during the holidays. Your thoughts and suggestions are needed! Thanks in advance...
The best gift I ever gave my H was a picnic basket (yes, in December). In it was a bottle of champagne, two champagne glasses, some chocolate covered strawberries, and a coupon for a weekend for two at a sailing ship bed and breakfast. The B&B didn't quite live up to its hype, but the romance in it just blew his mind. I chose it because it was what HE loved - the romance. I couldn't care less about romance, but HE loves it. So his gift was all about what would make him swoon.
What would make her swoon?
Hey mfoss, part of a great A is focusing on being the best YOU you can be... Things included in this are working out, getting a haircut, maybe getting some new clothes, planning fun activities for yourself and your kids/family and inviting WW along ~ if she declines, then go ahead w/o her and have a great time, making the house as inviting as you can...
ps, just a thought, but a romantic gift may turn off your W right at this time.
Hey mfoss, part of a great A is focusing on being the best YOU you can be... Things included in this are working out, getting a haircut, maybe getting some new clothes, planning fun activities for yourself and your kids/family and inviting WW along ~ if she declines, then go ahead w/o her and have a great time, making the house as inviting as you can...
ps, just a thought, but a romantic gift may turn off your W right at this time.
This resonates with me. I have been working on myself and my stuff, and the the kids. And it really helps to make me feel better, and act more sanely!
My sense is that anything romantic will not be appropriate at this juncture as you suggest. I feel I need to do something though, just what?
Yeah, I didn't really mean do anything romantic. Swoon wasn't the right word. Maybe gush. As in, 'oh, I always wanted to learn how to skydive! Thank you for remembering that!'
What would mean a lot to her? What would show her that you listen to her and know what really matters to her? Sometimes these don't even have to cost anything. For instance, I bought window boxes 10 years ago, and H wouldn't let me put them up myself. Told me HE would do it. Well, guess what? They're buried in the garage so deep I'll never find them again. If I were to come home one day and see that they were installed...I'd be over the moon happy with him.
Hey mfoss, part of a great A is focusing on being the best YOU you can be... Things included in this are working out, getting a haircut, maybe getting some new clothes, planning fun activities for yourself and your kids/family and inviting WW along ~ if she declines, then go ahead w/o her and have a great time, making the house as inviting as you can...
ps, just a thought, but a romantic gift may turn off your W right at this time.
This resonates with me. I have been working on myself and my stuff, and the the kids. And it really helps to make me feel better, and act more sanely!
My sense is that anything romantic will not be appropriate at this juncture as you suggest. I feel I need to do something though, just what?
I like Cat's last suggestion. DS is a top EN for me so if my H did something like surprised me with a clean house top to bottom or installed some California closet organizers in our master bedroom or something along those lines it would make major LB$ deposits.
Another idea was something to remind her of the history of your life together, maybe one of those picture frames that does a slide show with digital pictures, with pics of past vacations, kids in their halloween costumes, good memories, etc.
mfoss, try to remember things that she asked you to do in the past. Did you ever tell her that you would do something and then put it off? What was on your honey do list?
Just a bump to say I'm thinking of you, mfoss. Christmas can be a very stressful time of the year, and this year it could be enormously stressful. I hope somehow you manage to find a glimmer of joy and hope during this season.
I'm praying for you. Merry Christmas.
Fred
hi all, just a quick note to say I am back and I survived christmas. Lots to reflect on, and to work on. Plan A is quite hard, and I am learning a lot.
Fred: as always, thanks very much for your kind words and thoughts. I am praying for you as well.
Not to mention the redskins.
A new year, and new challenges for me to work through.
I bought "His needs, Her Needs" as part of trying to execute a good Plan A. I have found it to be very helpful.
I am struggling with making choices around which areas to focus on. I have completed an assessment of her needs, and I think I have a decent (although not perfect) idea of areas to work on.
The hardest parts are:
- trying to separate "fog talk" from legitimate dialog, balancing real listening with "Would you like a potato chip", and not reacting negatively
- breaking my own bad LBing habits
- finding the strength to make continuous effort with no expectations for the immediate term
I think I would keep in the back of my mind, MY life - with or without her. Any dialogue would be focusing on the fact that you may - and CAN - survive without her. Acknowledging that to yourself takes away the fear, the insecurity, the neediness. No matter WHAT she says or does, you'll be ok. So you can't get dragged into meaningless conversations that won't help YOU in the long run. If she wants to move forward beside you, so much the better; but if she doesn't, you've got it handled.
Plus, maintaining that composure makes you look darn attractive.
Eliminating your own selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outburst in the face of your spouse's independent behavior and dishonesty is very, very hard work.
I ended up vacillating a lot... my Giver would work for like 5-8 days, no problem, then my Taker would rear up and I would love-bust like crazy! Then again, I'd been in an unknowing equivalent of "Plan A" for five months already. None of us are perfect, but your goal is to be as good as possible so that your spouse has the best impression possible of you if you need to go to Plan B.
If you keep your topics of conversation light and distant from the affair -- avoid relationship talk entirely! -- you may find your wayward very honest in brief moments between boiling rolls of fog. You can glean a lot by just engaging in casual conversation and changing the subject if/when anything about your relationship or the affair comes up.
Not to mention the redskins.
If I had known that...
Just kidding mfoss. But I live with a redskins fan and his whole family can be rather obnoxious when they have a good team. Thank goodness it has been awhile.
Hope all is going well.
I have been lurking for a while as opposed to posting in my thread, mostly because I have not felt like I needed the forum's help, and not wanting to waste your attention on my situation when there were others in more need. Also, I have been able to find a lot of answers to my questions in other posts, or through reading the books.
I can say that I feel I have grown a lot already as a result of this experience. As hard and painful as it has been (especially at first), I am *sure* I will be in a better place in the medium and long term.
I have started seeing a personal counsellor, and that has been really helpful for me. I highly recommend doing this if you are in a crisis. It is not a silver bullet, but it has been extremely valuable for me.
We are also going to a marriage counsellor, and that is going ok, although still very touch and go.
OM is out of the picture. I am aware that WW has had other past EAs and PAs of significance. I also feel like she is interested in developing new EAs (and maybe PAs), but I cant tell if I am being overly paranoid.
On the positive side, I am:
- sleeping well enough again
- focussing on executing a good Plan A and making LB$ deposits
- changing many past bad habits
- being very honest with her about my feelings with success
On the challenging side:
- I am not sure where I am at or where she is at in the process
- I have not set a Plan B date
- I get a wide range of responses from her, from "I am making a huge mistake" to physical outbursts of anger (directed at inaminate objects)
- if I had to guess, she is going through depression of loss of the A, but I am not totally sure
- I struggle with parts of Plan A
- particularly in being honest with her about my feelings, I feel sometimes I am sucked into LBing comments, and other times I make deposits by demonstrating my more honest approach
- sometimes I find it hard to know when to listen and respond versus dismiss alien talk
So, that is where things are at. Your thoughts and comments are welcomed.
mfoss, I am in admiration of your thoroughness and willingness. I don't know you, of course, and you've only been here for a short while (shorter than I), but if there is anyone better at grasping and working the MB concepts and principles than you, I haven't read their posts yet.
I envy you, too. It seems that you have the very real possibility of recovering your marriage. However, it also looks like you're going to have to do it the "old-fashioned way:" you're going to have to earn it!
From where I sit, everything about my situation is a snafu, and I've not had much chance to work MB plans according to "the book." Plan A was virtually non-existent, WW has a significant load of baggage from her past, and a seeming inability to look at herself, despite being a member of A.A. for nearly 10 years.
So I welcome your success story, mfoss. I know it can and will be rocky; I hope you share those with us, too. I know that I come here like a whipped dog with its tail between its legs when things get rough and tumultuous. It's probably the best place for me to vent, catch my breath, and get a virtual hug and a ton of support. This place is the best!
And I love reading success stories. I'm counting on yours to be the first start-to-finish success story I've read here.
Any pride I may have for a moment in adopting the MB logic is quickly tempered by the fact that I am here, and an honest realization of how poorly I have behaved in the past. Not to mention the fact that I only came around quickly with the support and honest constructive criticism from the forum. My instincts were wrong, and with your help I overcame them.
I am going to have to earn it.
It is going to be hard.
I promise you I am going to give it everything I have.
I have a situation that I would like your counsel on.
WW has been hellbent on getting an apartment, and I have been doing what I can to not enable this without lovebusting. Originally, she had wanted to get a place for her and the kids to share custody, which was not an option from my perspective.
Now she has found a short (5 week) sublet around the corner that is small, and would not accommodate the kids. She uses all the WW babble to reason for this.
I should mention OM is out of the picture. I am not sure about other OM, and of course she could go and meet someone new at anytime.
My challenge is that she can borrow the money to make this happen, and I am concerned about lovebusting by not helping out financially. If it is going to happen anyways, should I support it fully? Partially? Not at all?
Thanks in advance.
If it is going to happen anyways, should I support it fully? Partially? Not at all?
Door #3 seems the obvious choice.
Unless your ultimate intent is to D and maintain primary custody of the kids, in which case assisting with an arrangement that results in your WW being out of the house and away from a position where she can act as primary custodian could give you a strategic advantage in any custody battle.
Door #3 seems the obvious choice.
I had a feeling someone here would say that.
I am asking because I am unsure, and I value your experience and guidance.
WW stays at a mutual friend's about half the time as it is right now. Otherwise she is on the couch at the moment.
However, I feel she is going to be able to make this happen.
And in some ways, as much as I do not like it, and understand that it is not necessarily a positive step forward towards recovery, because it is temporary, and convenient (around the corner), I am conflicted. I feel it could enable short term stability for her (in terms of getting something, and taking more radical options off the table).
Also, I understand she is legally entitled to half of our assets, and I feel that it won't serve me well to not be a little accommodating, especially in a battle I know I am not going to win. I feel like I need to pick my battles, and this might be one to concede.
But I obviously am not clear on what to do, and would value more guidance.
I have a situation that I would like your counsel on.
WW has been hellbent on getting an apartment, and I have been doing what I can to not enable this without lovebusting. Originally, she had wanted to get a place for her and the kids to share custody, which was not an option from my perspective.
Now she has found a short (5 week) sublet around the corner that is small, and would not accommodate the kids. She uses all the WW babble to reason for this.
I should mention OM is out of the picture. I am not sure about other OM, and of course she could go and meet someone new at anytime.
My challenge is that she can borrow the money to make this happen, and I am concerned about lovebusting by not helping out financially. If it is going to happen anyways, should I support it fully? Partially? Not at all?
Thanks in advance.
Mfoss,
I agree with the previous poster that if D is your goal, allow her to get a apartment using only her own income and will and let her surrender strategic ground.
But if recovery is your goal....
Don't be a enabler, how can she say shes wants to work on the marriage but she takes steps to physically seperate from you.
Sounds to me like she wants a shag pad for any current of future OM she might meet.
Wouldn't you agree MFOSS, that by living under the same roof, you'd have more opportunities to observe her behavior?
Wouldn't you agree that you'd have more opportunities to meet each others EN's?
Are her words matching her actions?
Recovery is the goal. She has no income currently.
I would have more opportunity to observe and make LB$ deposits if she was under the roof, but that is not an option. She will have access to funds to enable this soon, and so I need to respond to that reality.
My options are:
- no support, take whatever hit that has on the LB$, setup possibly more radical action (a longer term arrangement, her going legal, etc...), and she still gets the place
- support and exploit whatever positive components of the situation I can
These are not great options. I do not want be a doormat. But I also need to deal with the fact that this is going to happen, no matter what I do, or at least it feels that way, if you have ay ideas on how I STOP it, let me know!
Absolutely do not help her move ANYWHERE but home. Her choice; her money. Helping her out would only make her respect you even less.
Recovery is the goal. She has no income currently.
I would have more opportunity to observe and make LB$ deposits if she was under the roof, but that is not an option. She will have access to funds to enable this soon, and so I need to respond to that reality.
My options are:
- no support, take whatever hit that has on the LB$, setup possibly more radical action (a longer term arrangement, her going legal, etc...), and she still gets the place
- support and exploit whatever positive components of the situation I can
These are not great options. I do not want be a doormat. But I also need to deal with the fact that this is going to happen, no matter what I do, or at least it feels that way, if you have ay ideas on how I STOP it, let me know!
It's all in the way it's presented, mfoss. Rather than say, "I won't let you move" or "I don't want you to move," say something like "I only support staying here and working on the marriage." The message is the same but the delivery is polar opposites.
If I am not going to support it, I am going to need to deal with the fact that I am blocking access to our financial resources, some of which she is legally entitled to. I am capable of arranging this (it is already mostly in place), but how to justify it?
I am getting a lot of family and peer pressure to allow this, and I feel it will cost me in credibility in that area as well. Granted, they have no experience or real understanding of what I am dealing with (unlike you all), but it will burn some of my support network.
Recovery is the goal. She has no income currently.
OK, she has NO income, how is she getting a apartment then? Every apartment I got, they wanted income verification, I had to pay a application fee and a hefty deposit.
Does she have to do the same?
I would have more opportunity to observe and make LB$ deposits if she was under the roof, but that is not an option. She will have access to funds to enable this soon, and so I need to respond to that reality.
Let her borrow the money then.
My options are:
- no support, take whatever hit that has on the LB$, setup possibly more radical action (a longer term arrangement, her going legal, etc...), and she still gets the place
I have to call BS on this one.
Apartments cost money
Lawyers cost money
Utilities cost money
This apartment of hers is a pipe dream, IMHO
She wants out, SHE can pay for it.
- support and exploit whatever positive components of the situation I can
This is a non-starter...
These are not great options. I do not want be a doormat. But I also need to deal with the fact that this is going to happen, no matter what I do, or at least it feels that way, if you have ay ideas on how I STOP it, let me know!
MFOSS, at the risk of sounding like this is all about me... I'll tell you what I did.
When WW got her rathole apartment and she asked me for money the answer was no
no, she cant have the car
no, she cant have any money
no, she cant have anything i bought to replace what she took when she left
If she wanted money, i'd ask what for?
Food for our son? Give me receipts and I'll reimburse if i deem its for the child
Clothes for our son? Id go buy them and kept the receipts
Daycare would be paid directly by me, I kept the receipts
Any, I mean ANY other expenses needed for my son, I would require receipts
I'd be damned if i was going to pay the electric bill for both places.
I made sure my son was supported financially, but i never gave the WW money.
I had determined that any money I gave to the WW would only finance HER choices and I wouldnt be parting with one red penny until ordered to do so by the courts.
I was told, and I've heard on MB that any money given to the WW would be considered a gift and would not count towards CS.
If I am mistaken on the CS, feel free to chime in anyone
RMX, there are some exceptions. Mfoss said his WW was "getting some money."'
My WW had/has no job and no credit rating. But she came into $$$ when her family sold its homestead property. She got an apartment by paying six months' rent plus security deposit up front. Cash, no doubt.
Six months pre-paid. No arguments from someone eager to rent an empty apartment in this economy...
RMX, there are some exceptions. Mfoss said his WW was "getting some money."'
My WW had/has no job and no credit rating. But she came into $$$ when her family sold its homestead property. She got an apartment by paying six months' rent plus security deposit up front. Cash, no doubt.
Six months pre-paid. No arguments from someone eager to rent an empty apartment in this economy...
my WW's POSOM sold drugs to pay for the bills (sometimes)... theres always exceptions..
[quote=mfoss2212]OK, she has NO income, how is she getting a apartment then? Every apartment I got, they wanted income verification, I had to pay a application fee and a hefty deposit.
Does she have to do the same?
Since it is a short term sublet, all she needs is a little cash, which she can get through loans.
It is almost certain to happen, I need to consider my position.
What position, you don't enable, period.
Its your choice, there is no-one with a gun to your head.
Mfoss, you need to accept the possibility that this is going to happen. There may be nothing you can do about it. You simply need to (a) not enable it, and (b) keep to your stance that you will only support the marriage and nothing else.
Are we getting through to you?
Are we getting through to you?
I am certainly getting value from the comments so far. Thanks very much!
To be honest (and I now know that is the only reasonable policy), I still feel I have some unanswered concerns (legal consequences of access to finances, burning support network, etc...), but I am taking the advice given so far to heart, and it is valuable and helping me consider different scenarios.
Access to finances?
could you elaborate?
If its your paycheck, she isn't entitled to it, they make it out to you in your name.
If you have direct deposit, change it to go into another bank account.
If its credit cards in both your names, cancel them.
Your paycheck is used for the family, if your wife is leaving the family.. well there you go.
If you have a HELOC, talk to the bank.
If your worried about alimoney and child support, those have to be ordered by the courts...
It is almost certain to happen, I need to consider my position.
Your position should be, when you are ready to return to the family, you will (probably) have a place here, and you will then again have access to the family money.
Hi Mfoss...
What is your timeline for Plan B?
What is your timeline for Plan B?
I have not set one, and I think that is a problem. I have been thinking about that.
I feel it impairs my Plan A a bit, in that I do not have a hard deadline to meet. I am going to go read Plan B stuff now.
Suggestions, links, constructive criticism and support all on Plan B issues welcomed!
I am finding lots of good info in old threads, but I am struggling to fond specific advice on how far out/when my Plan B date should be. The books do not seem to cover this either. Ideas?
I believe it's a matter of 6 months for a BH, on average, before he needs to drop Plan A and go to B; 6 weeks for a BW.
Or do I have that backwards?
Hey all - just a quick note to say that I have been clear about not supporting her getting the sublet. AFAIK, it looks like someone else rented it this evening. So, we shall see what is next, but that is where things are at. I spent a lot of time today working out my position, and I thank you all for your help last night in guiding me.
I am still looking for more guidance on what Plan B is, and how I should come up with a date for that. In the meantime, Plan A hard.
Mfoss, a "soft" answer to a hard question.
Plan B, like Plan A, has two components to it. But they only need one action on your part. Or perhaps it's more correct to say one "inaction."
Plan B is about separating yourself from your WW. It means SHE moves out -- you stay. When she goes, you hand her a letter. This letter is a 'love letter,' although it's rarely seen that way. It states that you must separate from the WS because you can no longer have the current conditions deplete the love you once had for her. It states the policy of NO CONTACT. She is not to try to contact you and you are not to contact her. This means not even asking others about her. If any communication is necessary, it is to be done through an intermediary OF YOUR CHOOSING, not hers.
The letter goes on to say that this is how it's going to be as long as OM is in the picture. The only way "back" to any hope for your relationship is through a break-off with the OM with PERMANENT NO CONTACT WITH HIM. She will write a letter that you will edit, approve and mail. She will also agree to a variety of conditions including but not limited to: Polygrahp testing. STD testing. Full transparency (passwords, bank accounts, etc.). Full compensation (answers to your questions regarding the A). And so on.
The two purposes served by Plan B are (1) to provoke the WW into having all EN met by OM. This rarely works, because the A is not based in reality. And once the reality of having all EN met by the OM sets in, they rarely are. This, coupled with the exposure done in Plan A, set the wheels in motion to kill the affair, and (2) to get you used to life without WW. Because if the A does not die, or if the WW does not have it within her to return, YOU get to heal by also knowing what life is like without her.
I know this is a pretty much oversimplified explanation, but that's the essence of it. Plan A sets up Plan B. If Plan A has been worked to "perfection," Plan B then works to force the issue. From Plan B comes recovery. Either the recovery of the marriage, or your personal recovery moving forward without it.
Thanks Fred. Very helpful.
I would appreciate any links to good threads, posts, books or further general info on plan B.
Currently, my situation is that I have ended the OM relationship that was the catalyst for her telling me she was leaving me. I have seen her resulting depression. I know it is a risk to "come back", although I feel I have suitably exposed OM to the point where he will not engage with her. But I remain ready for that.
However, WW does seem to be seeking out other OM, and while not having much success as far as I can tell, it is an active initiative for her. Fortunately, the advice I have received here has helped me to make sure I am not enabling this activity. I am being real clear that this is NOT acceptable to me in ANY way, and I getting better at being clear yet not "crazy" about expressing this. I have a lot of bad habits in terms of being passive aggressive in this department, and I am growing better at being honest and direct, without being hurtful.
I keep getting better at really understanding Plan A, and taking action to support the objective of breaking my bad habits and meeting the ENs I have neglected, while not being a doormat. With no expectations. It can be tough!
One of the best things I have been able able to apply to my personal situation has come from my professional life, not to become too confident or happy when I do something right, and not to feel too horrible when I screw up. Slow and steady wins the race.
Still learning every day. Advice, counsel and guidance welcomed!
Mfoss, here is a link to Dr. Harley's article on
What are Plan A and Plan B. Plan B is also discussed in Surviving an Affair (the book). There are a lot of people like MelodyLane, PepperBand, and more who can describe Plan B in great detail.
It sounds like your Plan A has worked better than most, in that it has broken the affair. But your wife is still wayward. This is not surprising actually, because she is still actively addicted, so she is looking for the "fix," whether with the original OM or another. I know this has to be incredibly hard, but this is the time to Plan A your butt off! Try to keep in mind that you are making deposits in her LB$ even if she isn't aware of it.
But because of the emotional toll this takes on you, Plan B should be waiting in the wings.
I went into Plan B almost from the beginning. I had already contacted an attorney and gotten my wife's signature agreement on a separation and property settlement. So I was protected from any future attempts by her to wrest money or property from me. I advise you to look at protecting yourself, too. You probably don't need your wife's signature if you go to an attorney NOT seeking a "no fault" divorce. And keep in mind, filing doesn't mean you're getting a divorce. It just means you've put that option on the table.
How you have her leave is entirely up to you. I've heard some people say that they packed a suitcase and left it on the front porch. Others have calmly but deliberately stated their wish to have WS leave as a boundary violation. However it works for you, the pi�ce de r�sistance is the Plan B letter you HAND TO HER right as she's leaving.
It isn't rocket science, but simply a Plan. You put the pieces together in a way that works best for your situation and then execute. It can be immediate (the suitcase on the porch) or it can be scheduled ("Because I can no longer suffer the abuse at your hands, I expect you to leave next Tuesday. Please start packing and prepare to leave then"). The leaving is one thing, the letter is the other. The IM is your link, and then you disappear into a black hole. It's really that simple.
You have got to do a good plan A now while monitoring for wayward behavior.
I believe it's a matter of 6 months for a BH, on average, before he needs to drop Plan A and go to B; 6 weeks for a BW.
Or do I have that backwards?
I would appreciate further guidance on this! I feel having a date will help me Plan A, knowing that there is a deadline. Thanks!
Harley has recommended six months at the most. With the warning that you only do so as long as one can handle it. Usually the stress of doing a plan A takes it's toll harder on women. Thus women are told it is OK to stop sooner.
Hi all -
I need your help.
I have been plan A'ing as best I can, however I found out this AM that there is a new OM, and that is has been physical. Obviously, this is quite devastating to me, although I can not say I am totally surprised given my WW fog, and having read lots of stories of relapse here.
So, I am trying to figure out what to do next. Having some experience, I feel better prepared to do whatever is needed this time.
Here are my questions:
- I may have to reveal a snooping device in order to expose, I would like to avoid doing this, thoughts on the balance
- I feel I can challenge her and get her to confess, this will avoid exposing my snooping, but might hurt exposure activities, should I challenge her?
- I assume I need to kill this relationship, and that exposure is going to be part of my approach, I need not concern myself with any impact to my plan A, as I have a bigger problem, right?
- how wide and thorough should my exposure be? I am guessing our kids, OM, close friends etc... thoughts welcome
It is going to be a busy couple of days. Your advice and support are welcome.
Ok, that would be a deal breaker for me fossy.
I could handle one OM, but now another one???
Others might say that another round of exposure is in order..
If it was me, I would plan B, or plan FU.
I could deal with my WW making bad choices once, but repeating that mistake ....uh uh!
Is it possible this new OM is just a way to get you to give up?
Expose to everyone who has ANY influence of ANY SORT on your WW and her OM!
You are d@mn right that you need to expose more.
Don't prod her about the truth, just expose. You have a better chance of meeting a 6 foot tall Yoda than getting the truth out of her the first time you ask for it.
Ok, that would be a deal breaker for me fossy.
I could handle one OM, but now another one???
Others might say that another round of exposure is in order..
If it was me, I would plan B, or plan FU.
I could deal with my WW making bad choices once, but repeating that mistake ....uh uh!
Is it possible this new OM is just a way to get you to give up?
Yeah, it really sucks. We may end up in Plan B, or Plan FU, but for now I am staying in the game and fighting. I have have read enough success stories where there are relapses to make me believe I still have a chance. But, I plan to be consistent and strong, and not become a doormat. And follow the counsel I get here!
Expose to everyone who has ANY influence of ANY SORT on your WW and her OM!
You are d@mn right that you need to expose more.
Don't prod her about the truth, just expose. You have a better chance of meeting a 6 foot tall Yoda than getting the truth out of her the first time you ask for it.
Yeah, there has already been a lot of dishonesty on this event. So, do I give up my access to info if I am challenged to prove it?
I have also been thinking I could refuse to give proof, other than "I know through a friend, I will provide proof in court if necessary. Also, confronting OM may give me proof from another source.
The truth is, the list of people who have influence on my wife is getting smaller, as she is ostracizing many who condone her behaviour. Makes it easier for me I guess, a shorter list.
You tell her you know. DO NOT REVEAL YOUR SOURCES. It's enough for you to tell her you know.
Never reveal your sources.
You don't have to prove what you know.
Full force exposure. Everyone connected to WW and to the OM.
Must expose to the kids. This is very important.
Never reveal your sources.
You don't have to prove what you know.
Full force exposure. Everyone connected to WW and to the OM.
Must expose to the kids. This is very important.
Cool, thanks guys. That makes sense.
Kids are definitely getting the exposure, as much as that sucks, it is the right thing to do. Last time I exposed to the kids, she never really found out, as they kept quiet about it. This time, I will do a better job.
I am trying to plan a "perfect exposure" (although I concede there is no such thing). My sense is to take 48 hours to get organized (and track down OM, his employer, etc...) and then unleash. I feel the element of surprise and total (or more full) coverage are worth waiting a small amount of time for, agree?
No good reason to wait given.
Expose now
No good reason to wait given.
Expose now
I need to track down OM. I feel by hitting him first, I can get a confession (using "I know"), and use that as my proof. Or, I could just not bother creating this cover to protect my snooping and go with "I have my sources".
If I start exposing, word will get back to WW, and she can warn OM et al. I somewhat justify the delay by reasoning I might not have even found out for 48 hours.
However, the advice here has always been rock solid, so if the consensus is I just need to git 'er done, I will start picking up the phone ASAP.
Since this is not my first exposure (sadly), I feel I need to up my game and execute really well. Since WW knows the routine, I need to make sure I have the advantage of surprise and strong execution. Flood the zone.
I also have some practical considerations, like work commitments et al. I am clearing the deck as best I can so that commit fully to this when I hit the button.
Advice welcomed!
I have been plan A'ing as best I can, however I found out this AM that there is a new OM, and that is has been physical.
So you're two months into Plan A, is that about right?
Have you started making your lists for Plan B? How are you holding up?
You don't have to reveal any of your sources... If you KNOW about OM2, proceed with confidence. What will you do differently from the first time you exposed? What do you hope to accomplish? How do you think her reaction will differ?
DO expose, but it would be immediately followed by a Plan B letter, IMO. She's abusing you.
I am sorry.
So you're two months into Plan A, is that about right?
Have you started making your lists for Plan B? How are you holding up?
You don't have to reveal any of your sources... If you KNOW about OM2, proceed with confidence. What will you do differently from the first time you exposed? What do you hope to accomplish? How do you think her reaction will differ?
DO expose, but it would be immediately followed by a Plan B letter, IMO. She's abusing you.
I am sorry.
I am closer to one month into real Plan A.
I am doing ok, getting lots of support and taking care of myself. I am nowhere near my best though. The support and advice I have received here has been extremely valuable, as you all *get it* in a way no one else does.
Plan B seems like it is on my horizon. I am really struggling to find a good reference for what plan b is, and how to execute it. It is not covered in the books. I have no lists etc.... what lists?
What will be different this time is I will be way more organized and direct with my exposure. Especially with the most important targets (which is probably the kids). Last time I did a good job with OM, but not so much with the kids, or *all* the other important influencers. I got better as I went along, but had tackled the most important ones first. Sadly, my experience will make me better this time.
I am hoping for having a healthy relationship, in whatever form that is. If she is capable of reconciliation work, I would consider that with healthy skepticism.
I think I will do a better job with the kids this time, and that will affect her more. I also know this OM is not a serious thing, and that she is on the ropes in many facets.
Currently, my biggest challenge with Plan B is that I am not sure how I would "kick her out" of the matrimonial home. Legally, she is entitled to be there.
Continued thanks for your guidance.
Okay well I am by no stretch a vet but I am in Plan B. Plan B is the next logical step that you take after you have done a solid Plan A and the A has not ended. It is the way that the BS gets out of the WS's drama and saves any remaining LB balance for the day that R comes if possible. It is totally for the BS. It also makes the AP become totally responsible for meeting all of the needs of the WS, thus putting more pressure on the A as "reality" has to creep in.
If you are going to go in to Plan B, you have to "get all of your ducks in a row" The first thing you have to do is find an IM to deal with any communications between you and your WW. They should be neutral. Here is Melodylane's post on this
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2264548#Post2264548You have to get the visitations set out and financial information set out in advance. Many people consult a lawyer to find out all of their legal rights.
Then you will choose a date to do this and you will Plan A until that date.
Write a Plan B letter and post your draft on here for input from the vets. You will also need to know what conditions your want her to meet for M recovery.
As far as how you get her out of the marital home, I can only tell you what I did. The day I chose for the beginning of my Plan B, my WH was at work. I had mentally prepared a list of the things I had to pack away(only his personal belongings) and I had a friend get some boxes ready at her home for that morning. I took the kids to school and then I came home and packed all of his things and put them on the porch. My Plan B letter was written with a copy hidden behind a family picture that I packed in his things as well as 3 small photo albums of family pics.
He came home early but I stood my ground and told him that his affair was hurting me too much and I could not allow myself to continue to be hurt anymore and I had to ask him to leave. It took 1/2 hour of me repeating what I had stated for him to finally say, "So this is it?" and I said, "Yes." and then I asked him for his house key and he gave it to me. It was THE single hardest thing I had ever done in my life but it felt right and I don't regret it one minute.
The better you are prepared for Plan B, the better you feel going in to it. My advice would be just to prepare yourself fully so there will be no doubts. There will be fear but just come on here and someone will help you out of that.
Thanks for the Plan B guidance. I will continue to educate and prepare myself for this possibility. I wish there was a definitive guide available I could buy!
I do not think it is a possibility for WW to go to OM's place if I give her the boot, as it is more of a one night stand type of situation.
As an update, I have found OM's workplace (and lots of other details), and will be visiting him there ASAP.
I need some ideas around how best to get OM at work. He is a professional, and I will be interrupting him at his office. I have no idea what I will be walking into. I need some ideas about plausible schemes to use to get to him. Is it as easy as "an urgent personal matter"? Anything else I should be thinking / considering?
I'd not be putting all of my eggs in OM's basket, basing Exposure on your call with him. He may not admit to anything, and if he did, are you recording him (which may not be legal)? If not, it's still just your word against his.
Is he married? I'd be more apt to expose to his BW first, compare notes. She'll be of more help.
OM will just call everyone and warn them that 'some crazy guy will be calling'. He'll be on the phone with your WS before you hang up!
What is your plan? Call OM, then... ?
How will this exposure be different than the last?
99.99% of the time it is a waste to talk to the OM.
99.99% of the time they won't tell you the truth.
You can't threaten without the risk of legal problems.
Much better and more effective targets the the OM.
99.99% of the time it is a waste to talk to the OM.
99.99% of the time they won't tell you the truth.
You've got that right.
Just did OM. It was a one night stand, and he was fully open / confessed to me very quickly. I have him by the professional balls so to speak, so I am not too worried about him contacting her anymore. Sadly, I am have gotten good at exposure and threatening OM, having done it twice. Ugh.
Kids next. Then the rest of the list.
So, I am about to head home and WW is there. I suppose I should do the kids first, then should I talk to her before hitting the rest of my list, or just hit the list?
My instinct tells me to just hit the list.
However, the kids may cause a confrontation with her, which I am not afraid of, I just want to get the order right. On one hand, I feel if I confront her she may leave which will make the rest of my job easier.
What do you all think?
I did OM first to get proof so as to not ruin my snoop.
Now, I am not sure which way to proceed. Whoever I expose to next is likely going to engage WW, and then I will have to deal with her directly, which will impair further exposure. I feel that ideally I create a situation where she is out for a few hours so I can get my work done, and then deal. But I may be confused and not thinking straight.
Thoughts?
Never tell the WW you are going to expose.
Never tell the WW you are going to expose.
Right, so, is it best to wait until I can get 2-3 hours unfettered to go for it? If I start now, her phone will ring, and it will be a mess. I feel I can control my environment tomorrow AM better and get a good couple of hours in from a remote location.
I know it is going to be messy either way, I just want to make sure I get the top 10 done at least. Am I focussing on the wrong things?
I am through 7 key exposures (not counting OM) and WW know nothing. About 10 more to go.
I have asked people not to contact her until after 5PM so that I can have the kids home and safe, and so that the tsunami effect is full.
Her father is coming over to support me at that time.
OM has de-friended her on FB.
I am through 7 key exposures (not counting OM) and WW know nothing. About 10 more to go.
I have asked people not to contact her until after 5PM so that I can have the kids home and safe, and so that the tsunami effect is full.
Her father is coming over to support me at that time.
This is great news, mfoss, and I'm glad you have a plan to "synchronize watches." Let's hope no one takes her side and blows your timing. Even still, with you working the "tsunami effect," I think it wouldn't hurt things.
OM has de-friended her on FB.
???
How do you know this?
This is great news, mfoss, and I'm glad you have a plan to "synchronize watches." Let's hope no one takes her side and blows your timing. Even still, with you working the "tsunami effect," I think it wouldn't hurt things.
I have done my best to optimize things, and I am keeping sensitive targets until later, when she will not be reachable. Also, I have good reason to ask them to not blow my cover, getting the kids home safely.
If someone blows my timing, so be it. At this point I have gotten to the point of no return, and feel I am prepared for whatever happens.
OM has de-friended her on FB.
It is easy to tell. By looking at his profile, I can see if we have any mutual friends. We used to. We do not anymore.
If someone blows my timing, so be it. At this point I have gotten to the point of no return, and feel I am prepared for whatever happens.
Attaboy, mfoss! I'm rooting for you!!!
Attaboy, mfoss! I'm rooting for you!!!
Thanks Fred! You have been with me from the start, and your support and guidance has been amazing.
I am just completing number 16, no leakage yet. Kids will be home very soon.
When this is all over, mfoss, I'm going to buy you a drink.
And I don't even drink!
When this is all over, mfoss, I'm going to buy you a drink.
And I don't even drink!
Fred, I look forward to going for pho with you one day.
As an update, things have been fairly crazy here tonight, yet controlled. She has gone to stay with family, an outlet I set up in advance. I realize that many would encourage me to insist on her staying here, and I also setup that option as best I could, but I am ok with her being with family I have properly exposed and made my position clear to. Not ideal, but acceptable.
I have responded to her alien behaviour with as much Plan A as I could, without apologizing for exposure. It has been much easier for me to do the right things this time, which I realize is sad.
As a note, I called OM to clarify a factual point, and he was extremely apologetic, and expressed a strong desire to never see her again and have this whole thing "go away". He even offered me incentives to not expose him further in his world.
Getting ready for tomorrow. I am going to hit Plan A hard, but I feel I need to setup Plan B more properly. I am not sure I can do this again, in fact, I am pretty sure I can not. I want to be ready.
My big question is, legally she is entitled access to the matrimonial home, I can not deny her that (legally). She has no income currently, so getting another place is going to be hard. How should I approach this issue in my Plan B terms?
mfoss, my wife was in the same financial condition as yours when she informed me she was leaving. I let her stay in the home and, by legal agreement, she had to vacate at a certain date.
She spent five weeks and never once did any active searching (that I can tell) for a place to stay. The day she moved out she told me that her prior arrangements had fallen through.
Not my problem.
She could have chosen to end the affair, go No Contact and work on the marriage. And stay home. She chose not to.
Not my problem.
I think you know what I'm saying...
In absence of a legal agreement with respect to residency, what should I put in my Plan B conditions? Should I just say that I do not expect her to be there at all, and let her practically challenge that? What do I do if she does? I have no legal ground to stand on, right? Will the practical ground be enough?
I believe I've heard more experienced voices here recommend doing it anyway. Let her go to the courts and have them issue an order requiring you to grant her access.
Waywards are foggy. Tell her you can no longer tolerate her conducting an affair under your roof and that she has to go. She'll be so confounded that she'll go. Probably to him.
And then the next day you have the locks re-keyed.
By the time she comes to her wits and figures out she has rights, she'll be forced to figure out what to do next. "Hmmm, shall I go to the cops and tell them that I got kicked out because I was having an affair...?"
The more I think about it, the more I feel I should Plan B soon. Or at least be very prepared to hit it. Currently, I feel her going to OM is not possible, but there is a very real possibility there are more OM, or there soon will be.
I am going to read as much as I can, but any advice on what else I need to consider would be appreciated.
Just a couple of words of advice, mfoss:
The Plan B letter is a *love letter*. It is not meant to be cruel or vindictive. It states that the love you have for WW and your marriage is in danger of fading. You want to preserve that love, hence you are implementing Plan B.
You should have your IM already set up, and include information on how to contact the IM in your letter.
A path back should be clearly stated. Of course, it starts with the end of the A, with an agreement to write a joint letter of permanent NC to the OM. Whatever other conditions you want/need should be listed, or at the very least, the conditions to begin *consideration* of recovering the marriage should be included. STD testing, polygraphs, counseling, etc. Whatever YOUR requirements are.
It should go without saying that Plan B also means TOTAL DARKNESS. As I say, that means both initiating AND receiving! Even snooping and asking others about her can send you back to the beginning of Plan B. So unless absolutely unavoidable, DARK MEANS DARK.
On that last part, I can tell you that DARK is a good thing. It's only been two and a half weeks since I last saw The Leopard (the day she moved out) and already I'm feeling better (more comfortable with myself).
You go, guy!
What are best practices for choosing an IM?
I have exposed to the kids, and feel I did a better job this time.
My question is (and I asked this last time as well and got mixed answers) should I let WW know that I have told them. I think I should, but I realize this is a big LB. I did not tell her last time, and I do not think she knows. The kids may not have told her either. So, I feel that I did not get the full benefit of exposing to them.
Thoughts?
My opinion (not based on reading Dr. Harley - who I think addresses this here in one of the newsletters) is that you should NOT tell her directly, and let her find out for herself.
It's going to be a LB any way you look at it, but if it comes tangentially it will be more confusing to the WS than if you came right out and told her.
As they say, your marriage can survive anger. It cannot survive an affair.
My opinion (not based on reading Dr. Harley - who I think addresses this here in one of the newsletters) is that you should NOT tell her directly, and let her find out for herself.
It's going to be a LB any way you look at it, but if it comes tangentially it will be more confusing to the WS than if you came right out and told her.
As they say, your marriage can survive anger. It cannot survive an affair.
Well, this affair is stone cold dead right now. Clearly WW is capable of anything, but I feel comfortable this OM is not a willing participant.
I feel I did not get the exposure benefit last time I told the kids. I got benefit in being honest with them, and showing them a good example, but not the impact of her knowing they are aware of more than she would like.
I feel if I do not tell her, she may not find out, and I would not realize the full benefit of doing this.
If I do tell her, she gets angry, but the consequences are out there. And we can survive angry.
I feel this needs to happen sooner than later, as it negatively impacts my plan A (as a major lovebuster) to do it to have it come out later. It may naturally come out real soon anyways.
When I originally asked the question, melodylane advocated for bringing it up, which I take seriously. Would love to know what her (or others) opinion is given the current circumstances.
WW is clearly struggling with the aftershock of my nuclear exposure.
I am hitting Plan A as best I can, and "would you like a chip" towards alien behaviour. I have not been perfect, but I have been able to functionally respond to some very challenging situations.
I feel I have never been closer to the kids, and they are a big part of my motivation. I think WW will realize their understanding of the situation naturally soon enough.
My biggest challenge is to bring my best plan A game to the table.
My biggest unknown at this point is setting a plan B date, and understanding all the moving pieces related to that. How do I pick a good IM? What qualities am I looking for?
I picked my IMs (2 people) who know both WH and I and are willing to spend the time to relay information. They are more on my side than his but won't lecture to him and scare him off.
Mine are people who are around enough to reach when I need them and I am comfortable asking them to deal with child and financial issues.
I tend to use one a while, give them a break and then the other and so on. I don't want them to get burnt out.
The IMs that I picked were close friends of both my WH and myself. They are friends to our marriage and most importantly they love our children. My kids even call them grandma and grandpa even though they are not biologically related to us in any way.
The biggest part in picking your IMs is that YOU have to trust them. They have to keep things away from you that would hurt you. They should be as impartial as possible. They should not try to fix things between you, they should just be there to pass on pertinent info without any emotion. That should go both ways.
One thing I found was that my IMs don't have cell phones and their internet is not working now either so they are only reachable by phone. It isn't that big of a deal though because I had the visitation schedule written out in an addendum to the Plan B letter.
Make sure that you write your draft of the Plan B letter and put it up on here. The vets will guide you along with the successive drafts to make a great Plan B letter. I pretty much took the one out of SAA but changed a bit of it.
As far as what you should do about asking her to leave because she is legally allowed access to the marital home, does she know that she has that right? She may not know. Even if she does, let her make the choice. She chooses to recover the M or she goes. Don't make it a bad thing just simply state, "I can not allow myself to be harmed by adultery anymore. I have to spare myself any more pain." Something like that. I thought my WH would NOT go. It took 30 minutes of talking and me repeating over and over again that I couldn't do this anymore and I couldn't live like this before he put his things in the truck and left.
Get totally prepared first. Then remember the night before you do it, why you are doing it. You may get cold feet and you will get scared. I was a wreck but I knew it was the right thing to do and I pushed through it. Not that Plan B is easy(it is a different kind of hard) but in some ways it feels better. No more snooping(saves me hours a day), and a lot less drama.
Thanks for that, very helpful. I feel it is a big thing to ask of someone, and to be honest a lot of candidates who know us both are so stressed by the situation I am not sure anyone has the capacity to handle this. But, if I think about it some more, I hope I will come up with a good option.
I am still committed to Plan A in the short term, so I hope I have some time. However, I must get ready for Plan B for my sanity, and to give me strength to Plan A in the interim.
She knows she has a right to the marital home, and that it affects custody of the kids.
I think I can probably get her to leave, but I imagine she would come back pretty quickly on principle. Maybe I am wrong.
It seems impossible to Plan B if we are both in the same house, right?
Make sure that you write your draft of the Plan B letter and put it up on here. The vets will guide you along with the successive drafts to make a great Plan B letter. I pretty much took the one out of SAA but changed a bit of it.
I have the digital / Kindle version of SAA and can not find a Plan B letter. What page is it on?
Hi all - another quick question for your consideration. WW is inclined towards speaking with people I have not exposed to for obvious reasons. There are not that many, but there are a few.
My question is, should I make exposing to these people a priority, or should I make Plan A behaviour my priority? I think Plan A, but not totally sure. Thanks!
mfoss, what are the "obvious reasons" you have not exposed to these people? It sounds like they have the most influence, and thus should have been the first on your exposure list.
That said, since she's already talking with them and has likely "poisoned the well," I'd say you should do both the Carrot and the Stick of Plan A. Expose for sure, but you'll have to be less obvious about it, almost as if the topic came up by accident: "Oh, by the way, I don't know whether you know it or not, but WW is having an affair with OM, and I'd really like for it to stop so that we can work on putting our marriage back together..."
I have the digital / Kindle version of SAA and can not find a Plan B letter. What page is it on?
Pages 80 -81 in the hardcover version.
mfoss, what are the "obvious reasons" you have not exposed to these people? It sounds like they have the most influence, and thus should have been the first on your exposure list.
Sorry, my bad. What is obvious is that once she realizes I have exposed, she moves on to people I have not exposed to. I probably missed 2-3 mid value targets due to time and circumstance.
That said, since she's already talking with them and has likely "poisoned the well," I'd say you should do both the Carrot and the Stick of Plan A. Expose for sure, but you'll have to be less obvious about it, almost as if the topic came up by accident: "Oh, by the way, I don't know whether you know it or not, but WW is having an affair with OM, and I'd really like for it to stop so that we can work on putting our marriage back together..."
That is good advice. Exposure is no longer my top priority, but I should capitalize on opportunities when they present themselves.
Should I pursue these last 2-3 mid value targets? I did manage did get to 21 people when I undertook my nuclear exposure, so it has been reasonably thorough, but not 100%.
I almost feel like I should not, because:
- these people will naturally hear about it through the rest of the network
- I need to be Plan A massive now
- leaving her some internal support might keep her from engaging strangers
What do you think?
Pages 80 -81 in the hardcover version.
Thanks Fred, once again my bad though. Which chapter is it in? The page numbers are different in the digital version... Cheers ~
Hi mfoss, Chapter 6: Preparing for Marital Recovery (it's actually just a few pages before Chapter 7).
My perspective on exposure is that as long as one is in Plan A, exposure is a "go." It's part of the Carrot & the Stick. It's only when Plan B takes effect that exposure stops (as much as I'd like to continue when I see targets of opportunity, I have been advised not to).
Hi mfoss, Chapter 6: Preparing for Marital Recovery (it's actually just a few pages before Chapter 7).
Found it, thanks. I do not have a Kindle, and I am using the Kindle app for the iPhone, which leaves a lot to be desired, but I found it. A very good section for me to re-read.
I struggle a LOT with talking to WW when I feel she enters alien mode. It seems that happens often right now, and I have to balance not LBusting by listening and being available for any non-alien parts, while not buying into/listening to alien mode and responding with lbusters!
I feel "would you like a cookie" is a lbuster, no?
My take is that right now I need to Plan A through actions, and less through conversation about pain etc... I will try and direct conversations towards practical matters and being helpful, or share humour etc...
Thoughts on this appreciated.
I feel "would you like a cookie" is a lbuster, no?
No.
The "I have a cookie" strategy is a
deflection. Its purpose is to keep us from making LBs when WS tempts us to do so.
WS: "I don't want to remain married to you. I don't love you any more. I think you're a horrid human being."
You: "Hmmm, I'll have to think about that. Hey, isn't [insert WS' favorite TV program] coming on now?"
(Then you retreat into the computer room where you come here and vent).
My take is that right now I need to Plan A through actions, and less through conversation about pain etc... I will try and direct conversations towards practical matters and being helpful, or share humour etc...
Thoughts on this appreciated.
Being the best husband you can be is always the best path to take. This doesn't mean being a doormat.
The "I have a cookie" strategy is a deflection. Its purpose is to keep us from making LBs when WS tempts us to do so.
Being the best husband you can be is always the best path to take. This doesn't mean being a doormat.
Hot dang it Fred, right on the money. Thanks for being around. I have to be honest, I had a bad middle of the day, and I was feeling confused and discouraged. I feel better now.
The "I have a cookie" strategy is a deflection. Its purpose is to keep us from making LBs when WS tempts us to do so.
Being the best husband you can be is always the best path to take. This doesn't mean being a doormat.
Hot dang it Fred, right on the money. Thanks for being around. I have to be honest, I had a bad middle of the day, and I was feeling confused and discouraged. I feel better now.
I
knew there was a reason I've been spending so much time on this board today. Well, that and the seven inches of anthropogenic "global warming" that's been falling all day...
Alright MFOSS,
Just read your thread......took me awhile ... I have to say I think you have done an outstanding job so far.....Most would have walked away by now ....it says volumes about your character and your commitment to your family and marriage.....
I have my Plan-B letter on my thread if you will click on my name and look at my posts it's "Under Plan-B looking for input" on 5/13/09 I think......I think now I would have changed it a little ...not offered the money for the apartment...
Anytime you make an ultimatum you have to be sure you are ready to suffer the consequences.....Plan-B is an ultimatum and the consequences are
1. not being able to plan-A anymore....your best chance of recovery is for her to be in the home with you....
2. WW says upyours I'm not leaving the house you are.....
3. WW leaves with the kids after tapping all your cash and moves in with the OM....
4. Insert your worst nightmare.....
Knowledge IS POWER..... she doesn't know what a Plan-B is or that it's about to be thrust upon her.....It's your job to as best as you can to plan what your response will be to any curves she throws at you......The last thing you want is to loose control of your plan because of poor planing!!!!!
For instance my best friend advised me to take anything I didn't want to loose out the house before the WW started to pack up (like the family albums) because it's much easier to GIVE it back than it is to GET it back.....
As you face this next step I want you to consider.....
1. Start your "War Chest"..... that's all the evidence of the A's
2. Protect your money....you've already been advise on that
3. Protect your kids....
4. Talk to a lawyer.....Part of the plan so you know what your options are
In the great state of Tennessee the assets are not necessarily divided equally..... her miss behavior matters..... and if you can get her out of the house and she is living on her own WITHOUT your support you will pay less if any alimony.....my goal was to have my WW own her own for a year be for going to court
Don't stay in this environment (with the WW) to long ....In hind sight I wish I had Plan-B sooner.....but my WW did finally agree to NC.....I wish I could say were in recovery now but I call it treading water....still waiting for the fog to clear......
You continue to get great advice here...... Use it and stay the course!!!!!
hi still committed - thanks for your guidance and encouraging words.
I am still struggling with my plan b plan a bit, but making progress to be sure. I drew up a list of IM's last night.
My real dilemma over planb is now that I have killed two affairs (one not sexual, one a one night stand), when picking a date for planb, am I resolving to stick to that date no matter what happens, or if there is another OM, should I just graduate to plan B. This will effect my date selection.
In SAA and on these boards, many who recover seem to persist some absolutely horrid and re-occuring acts, I am not sure where my limit is, but I feel like I am approaching it.
Thoughts?
I
knew there was a reason I've been spending so much time on this board today. Well, that and the seven inches of anthropogenic "global warming" that's been falling all day...
Hey Fred - I am helping you shovel in spirit!
Here is another issue on which I would like some counsel. I have to take a business trip later this month, and I have suggested that my mother come and stay with WW and the kids while I am away. She has agreed to this.
I could cancel the trip, but it is actually quite important for my company, so I am looking for ways to make it happen.
Thoughts / suggestions?
Hi mfoss, when is the trip? And to save me time re-scanning your story, how much in your corner is your mother? Is it possible for your mother to be an "extension" of Plan A?
By that, I don't mean being a stand-in for meeting WW's EN, but as a proxy, perhaps being able to speak with her one-on-one, without being judgmental or critical? How well do your mother and WW get along?
How does WW feel about this, or does she not know?
You want to avoid giving the impression you are having WW watched or "baby-sat."
If you go on this trip, I'm sure you've read about some of the things you can do to Plan A while you're away. You can probably get your mother to help here, too. You know, stash little "love notes" about where WW is sure to find them. If you write them out beforehand, your mother may be able to "distribute" them randomly at intervals.
For the rest, I'm going to punt and ask the assembled experts to chime in...
The trip is in two weeks.
I spoke to WW about it before talking to my mother. WW was initially against it, but eventually came to me and said it was ok.
My mother is quite neutral, and gets along with WW well. She really is the best available candidate for the job.
With respect to "watched", I hear you. I think my mom can provide some stability and helping hands / ears without being resented by WW.
I will need to work on my remote plan A in advance for sure.
How long is the trip? From what you've said, I think you have the best solution short of canceling given the circumstances. If the trip is one two-three days, I think it's a go. If it's longer, some backup contingencies may be necessary.
The trip is 4 days. I will keep trying to work it out and prepare.
I sat down and did some writing about a bunch of things, and came up with some things I could use guidance on...
- "open to reconciliation" versus "committed to saving the marriage", I have been inconsistent on this, and I am more comfortable with "open to reconciliation" at this point, esp. publicly, am I hurting my cause by not being more open and certain
- how to deal with social/peer pressure to just "give up"?
- I have found occasionally myself making plans to go out so that she has to be at home with the kids, as opposed to creating an opp for her to go out; this strikes me a not "great husband" behaviour, and I am guessing I should stop it?
Should I become a homebody?
How do I express my concerns when she makes plans to go out, without being demanding or disrespectful?
Sorry for the large dump, appreciate your thoughts.
I am not a vet but I do have a thought on one of your questions. The part about the social/ peer pressure. I actually stated to people that I would talk to that it was not supportive to tell me things like that although I understood that they were doing what they thought was best for me.
Just today I spent my hour lunch telling an older lady that I was not going to file for a D unless I wanted to be D. Then I explained the concepts of Dr H's and about this website and if she wanted to check it out and talk to me about it I would. Then I spent another 20 minutes talking to another co-worker about how I did not want to move on and find someone new and how I was still married and I wasn't ready to give up on my M just yet. She replied with, "I think you need a man for companionship and you are a good person and I know there is someone out there to make you happy." To which I responded, "I can get a dog." She laughed but I really wasn't joking(okay maybe a little).
It is a foreign concept to MANY MANY people as to how any BS could WANT to save their M. Well, we might be a minority, but I do believe in Dr H's basic concepts and MB principles. I believe that even if I don't have a chance to R my M, that this advice on here will give me the best chance. I firmly believe that if people followed MB principles that they would have fulfilling marriages. I direct people here all of the time. Some of my friends have even followed through and it is a lot easier to talk to them after they know some of the basic concepts themselves. Hope I helped.
It's hard to see when they do not walk in your steps.
Though most people remain married after an affair. Level of recovery is all over the place though.
Thanks Scotland, some good advice there. I often say something along the lines of "I am not in any position to make a decision about what type of relationship we might have in the future, I only know I want it to be a high quality relationship".
I often talk about MB principles and facts as well, and that helps sometimes. There are some people who just want me to give up. interestingly they have often just spoken to WW...
Hi all -
Pretty good day here in many regards. Did some very healthy things, and feel good for it. Also got some planA in. I would appreciate thoughts on the following...
What are my NC terms with no active OM? I feel I (obviously) need to protect against new relationships / one night stands. Is there a way to express all this without being demanding?
Thanks!
So, the last few days have been interesting, and generally good. I am putting 98% of my focus into Plan A, and 2% into preparing for Plan B.
The last exposure was very effective, and caused a lot of stress for WW. Because it was a sexual one night stand (and the second exposure), a lot of friends and family are reacting strongly. There has been some anger/fallout directed towards her from third parties. She has largely withdrawn from contact, and is quite prone to alien mode.
A couple of things I would appreciate guidance on:
- she is accusing me of being controlling, mis-representing things, and not listening to her, this seems to be WS alien talk 101, and I suppose I should just deflect and prove her wrong through my actions, it is hard to not be drawn into it though. anything specific I should be doing to counter these assertions?
- she met with a family member that I did not expose to directly, but who likely has heard lots through the grapevine, is it more of a lovebuster for me to reach out to this person to give her "my side", or should I just focus on Plan A?
Thanks!
- she is accusing me of being controlling, mis-representing things, and not listening to her, this seems to be WS alien talk 101, and I suppose I should just deflect and prove her wrong through my actions, it is hard to not be drawn into it though. anything specific I should be doing to counter these assertions?
Just deflect and let your actions speak louder than words.
- she met with a family member that I did not expose to directly, but who likely has heard lots through the grapevine, is it more of a lovebuster for me to reach out to this person to give her "my side", or should I just focus on Plan A?
I'd ignore this entirely, unless your WW starts relying on this person heavily. Right now, it may be something that calms her down a little. But watch it closely.
Just deflect and let your actions speak louder than words.
I'd ignore this entirely, unless your WW starts relying on this person heavily. Right now, it may be something that calms her down a little. But watch it closely.
Wise counsel Fred. Thanks v much.
Oh boy, bit of a situation here.
Need to keep my head straight, and welcome your advice. WW has approached me about taking the kids to the ILs without me for a long weekend leaving tonight or tmrw AM. I have responded calmly that I think we need to be in agreement on this, and that I need to think about it.
She is having a breakdown, and is claiming she needs time away from me, with the kids.
My instincts are telling me that I should not go for this, but part of me sees it as a lovebuster. The ILs is a very safe environment in terms of further WW behaviour.
?
Are the ILs in the know? What's their position on WW and the A? If she takes the kids there, will they do what they can to prevent her from contacting OM?
Can you call the ILs and tell them of your concern? If they give you their assurance that they will provide a safe, loving place for your kids, would that help?
The ILs are in the know. They would not support OM contact. Both OM are out of the picture in a serious way.
They are concerned for WW.
I could call them, but I am not sure what concerns I would express that would be reasonable, but I might come up with some.
I can count on them providing a safe loving place for the kids, I have a pretty strong relationship with them.
I wish I could be a terse as PepperBand. But I can't, so harken to my signature line...
Given your responses, the only question I have is to your comment
I am not sure what concerns I would express that would be reasonable
What ARE your concerns. And why would they seem unreasonable to the ILs?
You are FIGHTING FOR YOUR MARRIAGE, mfoss. This is not the time to be coy or creative. If you have concerns (and you do or you wouldn't have asked here), let them know.
It sounds like it might be a break she needs. IF THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY OF HER 'RELAPSING' INTO AFFAIR MODE.
She could be kidnapping them for all you know, I would not let her go anywhere alone, much less with the kids.
Offer to call the ILs and have them come visit, see how she reacts to that.
When I was referring to concerns I might have, I was thinking that you all might point some out to me that I had not considered. Often, my instincts are wrong, and I am enlightened after posting.
When I mentioned my unreasonable concerns, they are all based on paranoia.
I have no OM contact concerns. I have no kid safety / comfort concerns.
I think this break might be good for her, although to be honest, I have more modest expectations. But if I can win some points by supporting it, and you all do not think I am crazy for doing it, I can be fine with it!
When you allow W to go somewhere alone you risk her will weakening or contact.
These are not unreasonable concerns.
I know the OM (particularly the most recent one) have taken strong active steps to let her know they want NOTHING to do with her, so I am less concerned about contact.
Plus, ILs is 2+ hours away, and WW is not independently mobile.
Having thought about it some more, my only slight concern is not being able to make active LBank deposits, but WW is in such a state it is quite hard to. And letting her go would be a big deposit. And I could also do lots around the house while they are away which would also set up further deposits.
She is obsessed with accusing me of being "controlling", so giving her this would help in some way with that perception.
If she is accusing you of being controlling, that only means she doesn't like the consequences of her actions.
That perception is skewed by her mindless fog!
I'm inclined to say let her go.
With this proviso: That you contact the ILs ahead of the trip, inform them of her plans, and ask them to notify you when she arrives.
I understand the concerns of her absconding with the kids, but you have to judge how real you think that threat may be.
To add to Fred's idea (which is great) I'd say ask the ILs to call her during the trip and then to call you, to be sure they're okay.
I mean, you don't want them to be in a wreck and you not know about it.
On an unrelated note, kick@$$ signature, Fred!
Thanks both.
I have offered to drive them all up, she is thinking about that (otherwise she will be taking a bus, she does not drive). I will be in touch with the kids and the ILs over the weekend.
I will go and look into that sig, it does not ring any bells!
She went up Saturday AM and came home today. I got up early and arranged to drive her to the bus station. DS11 stayed home with me, and DS8 went up North with her.
I have to be honest in that it was nice for me to have a break from the stress of having to PlanA with her around. I know it is important to have face time, but it was a good little break.
I know there was no OM contact.
One of the things I struggle with is balancing the position of not supporting her moving out etc, and being supportive and not demanding about reasonable requests. I feel I am getting better, but man is it hard!
I also have realized that I am often quite tense when she is around, as I am so concerned about doing the right things. This of course does not help me come across as relaxed, supportive, and a good husband! Hopefully awareness is the first step...
She is often angry or tense herself these days, and I struggle to engage her positively when she is in this mindset. Should I say, "is there something wrong?", or should I try and engage her with a positive distraction?
Suggestions welcomed!
Hi mfoss, I think you're doing great! More power to ya!
I know this may be non-MB advice, so let the
come.
If you're both tip-toeing around each other, maybe a little honesty covered in kindness would be appropriate.
By that, I mean maybe it might not be a bad idea for one of you (guess which one?) might just say, "You know, we both seem to be a little on edge. Can we just sit down and talk? Not to get deep and serious, but just some light chat? Maybe like we used to do?" (This is assuming that you actually did this). Then do just that. Bring up little shared memories and experiences (nothing too emotional or sentimental). "Hey, remember that time when we both got double-scoop ice cream cones and mine fell all over my shoes as we were leaving the ice cream store?" That kind of stuff.
I say this because I sense the two of you are inadvertently building walls between each other. Probably as a defensive measure. But these walls aren't good for the prospect of recovery. So, rather than charge the embattlements with siege engines and trebuchets, a little light-heart erosion of these walls might be a better tactic.
Let me know what you think.
Hey Fred, that sounds like good advice. I often find myself at a loss for words around her due to anxiety, I need to prepare better so that I have good things to talk about. Any suggestions?
Hey Fred, that sounds like good advice. I often find myself at a loss for words around her due to anxiety, I need to prepare better so that I have good things to talk about. Any suggestions?
The first thing that comes to mind is to talk about things in the past -- avoid talking about the present. If you have photo albums or scrapbooks, pull a couple out, sit down and start going through them.
Get a jigsaw puzzle and both of you work on it together.
Try something different for dinner. Depending on where you are, what your food allergies might be, and what's available, try getting something unusual: Vietnamese pho. Afghani kabobs. Indian food. Choose together and share your choices. You can do this eat-in or carry-out, depending on what works best for you.
Whenever you feel the tension mounting, try something like the above to (a) take you out of the immediate tension, and (b) put some deposits into the LB$ at the same time.
Bit of an development that I could use some input on. I have been asking WW if she is giving up completely on our relationship, and if not, will she agree to not engage in new relationships with other men. She has generally avoided answering this question up to now. Yesterday she stated that there is still a chance for reconciliation, but that she can not agree to not engage with other men in the interim.
Obviously not a great answer, except as an example of extreme fogginess!
So, I feel I am at a bit of a crossroads in that while I know there are no other active OM right now, it seems she is intent on keeping that door open.
I am considering hitting Plan B, as I am not sure I want to deal with more OM.
It is also possible that she can't close that door right now, and that I can keep Plan A active, at least until there is another OM. She was quite shocked and went through a bit of a breakdown after my last exposure, so she is still getting back on her feet. Interestingly she has been a real homebody of late, and I have been banking some real LB deposits (I take such pleasure in shocking her with new positive habits and responses).
Plan A (and if so for how much longer), or Plan B?
Plan A (and if so for how much longer), or Plan B?
If you're REALLY in Plan A, you should be avoiding such "relationship talks" with your F(?)WW at the moment, unless of course she starts them, in which case you should tread very carefully.
Mfoss, my first reaction is that if she's at home and there is no OM, you'd be making a mistake to go to Plan B. She could very likely be pushed off the fence if you forced her out and went dark on her.
I know how tempting it must be. I had no choice because The Leopard and I had a legal agreement requiring her to leave the house. But since I had only found MB less than a week before, I was very torn because I thought I should have been able to work Plan A longer, even though the four weeks we'd had under the roof together pre-MB were absolutely horrid (and I LB'd big time). In my case, I think I'll always wonder if things might not have worked out differently if I'd had more time to Plan A.
The other thing that comes to mind is the possible LB potential of you asking about reconciliation and OM. It's possible she just doesn't want to look in that direction. It sounds like you're both getting some LB$ deposits, and this tack doesn't add any. I'm not suggesting you ignore it like the elephant in the living room, but it sounds a little jarring to me; think of how it might sound to her...
If you're REALLY in Plan A, you should be avoiding such "relationship talks" with your F(?)WW at the moment, unless of course she starts them, in which case you should tread very carefully.
Interesting, I had not heard this particular PlanA advice before. Sounds wise! Thanks...
Mfoss, my first reaction is that if she's at home and there is no OM, you'd be making a mistake to go to Plan B. She could very likely be pushed off the fence if you forced her out and went dark on her.
I know how tempting it must be. I had no choice because The Leopard and I had a legal agreement requiring her to leave the house. But since I had only found MB less than a week before, I was very torn because I thought I should have been able to work Plan A longer, even though the four weeks we'd had under the roof together pre-MB were absolutely horrid (and I LB'd big time). In my case, I think I'll always wonder if things might not have worked out differently if I'd had more time to Plan A.
The other thing that comes to mind is the possible LB potential of you asking about reconciliation and OM. It's possible she just doesn't want to look in that direction. It sounds like you're both getting some LB$ deposits, and this tack doesn't add any. I'm not suggesting you ignore it like the elephant in the living room, but it sounds a little jarring to me; think of how it might sound to her...
Ok, very good counsel once again.
I suppose I want to think about what to do if there is *another* OM, but I should just Plan A in earnest, and rest assured that I will cross that bridge if I come to it (hopefully not).
Another question, I am curious how Recovery starts typically. Is it WS suggesting working at it?
Bad topic/question.
No OM, wife home, recover, OM reappears or new OM appears straight to plan B.
I suppose I want to think about what to do if there is *another* OM, but I should just Plan A in earnest, and rest assured that I will cross that bridge if I come to it (hopefully not).
Each of us is different. But you're right not to dwell on "what ifs." Just work on "what is."
Another question, I am curious how Recovery starts typically. Is it WS suggesting working at it?
Now you've got me. I haven't BTDT. I know my
personal recovery began when I chose to continue living my life rather than staying stuck in one place.
And, not to sound like I have all my scheisse together, I still have to deal with my emotions, doubts, fears and curiosity every day. For example, the past two nights I've only gotten about four hours' sleep, waking each time to some odd train of thought that has her in it. Today started out pretty bad, too. I was feeling sad and dejected. I almost dreaded coming her to see what was going on.
But I'm feeling better now. Life goes on...
But I'm feeling better now. Life goes on...
Glad to hear that Fred.
"This too shall pass", and "time is on your side" get me through dark hours.
So, when WW brings up contentious issues (like her getting an apartment, etc...) I should just deflect? If so, I would appreciate more guidance on successful deflection, without lovebusting.
tx
Hi all -
I am back. I have not been posting as I was on a trip, and also I have been trying to "self-serve" by working through my challenges by writing about things and generally coming up with the answers I need. However...
It looks like there has been another one night stand. I am 90% sure, but do not have all the facts. Not sure I totally need them, however I would like to know when it happened, as it might have happened before my last exposure.
I am at a loss as to what to do, and I am posting here somewhat to just vent and sense check things.
Plan B is looking real good, but maybe I should plan A further? I don't know! Neither option looks good to me to be honest at this point.
Help!
Well, I don't know which to tell you to pick, I think in the end it will be your decision.
I can tell you however, that the transition between Plan A and Plan B is harder than either plan itself. You will go through moments where you won't know that it is the right thing to do. I will say that as far as the emotional turmoil, Plan B is a bit easier. There is no more snooping and you are totally thinking about yourself and what you want with no regard to what your WS is doing.
Make sure that when you choose to go to Plan B that you KNOW that you did the best Plan A you could and you just couldn't do it anymore.
This way you won't have any regrets.
I'm sorry, mfoss. To me, this would be a deal-killer. The multiple A's in the past are one thing, but in the midst of all this for your WW to have a ONS just smacks to me of an out-of-control woman who is not only a risk to herself, but to you (STD-ville!?) and everyone around her.
Hi - so it appears that this ONS most likely happened before my last exposure (the second one, which was also a ONS), and well, that is is all I know for sure right now. My sense is that there has not been more contact since then, or other ONS, but I don't know what I don't know. Will keep digging, and see what I can turn up. Need to just organize my thoughts, still reeling a bit to be honest.
Also, preparing for plan B, spoke to a lawyer. In the meantime, as hard as it is to do, Plan A.
Make sure that when you choose to go to Plan B that you KNOW that you did the best Plan A you could and you just couldn't do it anymore.
This way you won't have any regrets.
This is good advice, and I know my Plan A is scoring some points for sure. I also know it is really hard to effectively Plan A with all the resentment I have, but I keep trying.
I understand when I hit Plan B, there are no more chances to demonstrate positive changes and make LB deposits.
I know many people persist with Plan A through some very crazy situations, and I guess I am evaluating where I am at. A rock and a hard place it seems.
At this point, mfoss, you have to decide whether you want to keep your marriage and run the risk of more A's and ONS, or if you think your WW is truly capable of changing and becoming the wife you want and who brings the concepts of fidelity, loyalty and faithfulness to the M.
To be honest, I've lost a lot of faith in her, just from what you've written.
It's your life. Know that if you continue to subject yourself to emotional abuse it will spill over into other areas of your health, and the chances are that your life will end prematurely.
If you wish, I can go cite data to support this assertion.
But I think you already know it instinctively.
This is your Turning Point, mfoss. Think long and hard before you choose...
At this point, mfoss, you have to decide whether you want to keep your marriage and run the risk of more A's and ONS, or if you think your WW is truly capable of changing and becoming the wife you want and who brings the concepts of fidelity, loyalty and faithfulness to the M.
I wonder what the ONS means relatively? Is it better or worse than a single deep A? How does it change the other MB principles, especially in terms of Plan B timing. On one hand, I think about the examples where BS Plan A for six months while a single A is on. On the other, it sure seems abusive!
I have read enough other posts to still have some hope that WW is capable of recovery, however, I may need to Plan B.
This is your Turning Point, mfoss. Think long and hard before you choose...
I am doing a lot of thinking, and I am sure I will have more questions as work through this. Thanks so much all.
Here is something I am wondering, is the fact that these are ONS relevant to how effective plan A can be? I sort of feel that the fact that these are ONS point to greater dysfunction in WW stability etc..., and that my plan A efforts are less effective in this dynamic. I could be way off base, what do you think?
From what I remember reading in SAA, DR H states that whether there is no emotional attachment or a HUGE emotional attachment that the steps for R are the same.
If the A(or multiple A's) doesn't end then you Plan A followed by a Plan B.
Plan A alone does not usually end an affair. I think that the stats are about 15%.
Hope this helps.
From what I remember reading in SAA, DR H states that whether there is no emotional attachment or a HUGE emotional attachment that the steps for R are the same.
If the A(or multiple A's) doesn't end then you Plan A followed by a Plan B.
Plan A alone does not usually end an affair. I think that the stats are about 15%.
Hope this helps.
That really helps actually! Thanks very much
Here is something I am wondering, is the fact that these are ONS relevant to how effective plan A can be? I sort of feel that the fact that these are ONS point to greater dysfunction in WW stability etc..., and that my plan A efforts are less effective in this dynamic. I could be way off base, what do you think?
mfoss, I'm afraid you might be getting to the point of "paralysis by analysis." You are now searching for the "why" of things, when the answer to that may not be knowable.
I know I did this. In my case, WW had already moved out, so I spent
weeks trying to figure out "why." Even though I reached my unprofessional conclusions, the end result was the same: There was nothing I could do about it. "Why" is a control word. It is an attempt by us to try to control the circumstances.
That said, you need to PLAN OUT your next step(s). Whichever direction you take, make sure you have a PLAN.
So, here is my thinking at the moment...
My options are Plan A and Plan B. I must at least Plan A while I prepare for Plan B. I have felt previously that planning for Plan B was kind of counter productive, as it was taking away energy could be devoting to Plan A. And Plan A is really hard to do, and takes a LOT of energy to do properly! I am by no means great at it, but I keep getting better, and I may as well Plan A my heart out in the interim, but Plan B preparations are moving up in priority.
The question I struggle with is, would Plan B improve my situation? At some point I may have to, to be sure, but I am not sure when to switch to Plan B. The ONS I found out about today was prior to my last exposure, and it seems that exposure has dampened WW's resolve to cheat. Not that I would be terribly surprised to find out more, but from what I can tell exposure did have have an effect.
I struggle with being hard on myself in regards to the effectiveness of my Plan A, it really is one of the hardest things I have ever had to do. I am constantly realizing ways in which I am screwing up, and 2x4ing myself. Still, I am getting better, and I know I am making some positive impressions on WW.
mfoss, I'm afraid you might be getting to the point of "paralysis by analysis." You are now searching for the "why" of things, when the answer to that may not be knowable.
I know I did this. In my case, WW had already moved out, so I spent weeks trying to figure out "why." Even though I reached my unprofessional conclusions, the end result was the same: There was nothing I could do about it. "Why" is a control word. It is an attempt by us to try to control the circumstances.
That said, you need to PLAN OUT your next step(s). Whichever direction you take, make sure you have a PLAN.
You are right on the money. Honestly, I was feeling out of control a bit earlier today, and have "righted the ship", somewhat.
My first exposure was a complete mess compared to my second (so sad to have gotten better through experience), and it all had to do with PLANNING. I am almost proud of my second exposure, except it is nothing to be proud of.
So, having said that, I need to lay out the objectives of Plan B, and plan out how to execute, as I only intend on doing it once.
In the meantime, I will Plan A as best I can.
Hi all,
I have a question about PlanB. I have spoken to a lawyer, and apparently as a SAHM she can file an injunction for emergency support pretty quickly. I expect that this would happen soon after I PlanB. Am I better served to provide her with some money as a token gesture of wanting to work things out without going to the courts?
Also, in terms of her access to the kids, should I address this in the Plan B letter?
Mfoss,
Are you guys still living in the same house?
I have a question about PlanB. I have spoken to a lawyer, and apparently as a SAHM she can file an injunction for emergency support pretty quickly. I expect that this would happen soon after I PlanB. Am I better served to provide her with some money as a token gesture of wanting to work things out without going to the courts?
In my opinion, no. Let her do the heavy lifting. Plan B is all about "letting her go" without any support from you. If she wants it, let her go to the lengths to get it.
Also, in terms of her access to the kids, should I address this in the Plan B letter?
What does your lawyer say? Is there a risk that if she picks up the kids one day she will skirt them away? Can you enforce supervised visitation? (You can be away while she visits as long as there is someone supervising).
When you write the Plan B letter, it is possibly the last love letter you will write your WW. It should be about your relationship and a way back for her. You can make an addendum page about visitation and finances etc.
As far as what to do about finances, what did you lawyer say wuld happen to you if you didn't give her any money? Would it hurt your chances at custody?
In SAA, the example was that there was no money given to Sue. Then she had to go to court to get support. Dr H approved of that, so I will leave that up to your consideration. You have to understand that in Plan B you are not to meet any of your WW's ENs. If, as many W, one of her ENs is FS, then you don't meet it(unless it is court ordered).
I was told many times, Plan B is a prelude to D.
Mfoss,
Are you guys still living in the same house?
Yes. She is in the spare room.
In my opinion, no. Let her do the heavy lifting. Plan B is all about "letting her go" without any support from you. If she wants it, let her go to the lengths to get it.
You are probably right. I feel it may force her to engage a lawyer and "go for gold" as opposed to being more reasonable and working things out.
What does your lawyer say? Is there a risk that if she picks up the kids one day she will skirt them away? Can you enforce supervised visitation? (You can be away while she visits as long as there is someone supervising).
There is always a risk of her taking the kids. I think it is small, but it is a risk to be sure. My lawyer said I would have to fight hard for custody, and that she would likely get custody if she fought for it. I probably need to get a second legal opinion on all this stuff now that it may be most imminent.
I was told many times, Plan B is a prelude to D.
Right, good to keep in mind. Plan B is very live ammunition.
Well, I have given my best, and will continue to do so. That is really all I can do. I do want to bring my full game to plan b, and that means planning in advance (for me at least).
Mfoss,
I'm so sorry to hear about your current turn of events. I am with you. While your ww is having multiple ONS, my ww is still engaged in an ongoing EA and wont stop. I am also trying to decide about filing for D or legal Separation or waiting for her to file. I need to get to Plan B soon, but am unsure how to get her out of the house without the kids.
By the way, my ww is staying in our spare room also.
Mfoss,
I'm so sorry to hear about your current turn of events. I am with you. While your ww is having multiple ONS, my ww is still engaged in an ongoing EA and wont stop. I am also trying to decide about filing for D or legal Separation or waiting for her to file. I need to get to Plan B soon, but am unsure how to get her out of the house without the kids.
By the way, my ww is staying in our spare room also.
Hey SOL -
I appreciate your empathy, and I feel for your situation as well. I try and avoid feeling too sorry for myself, and focus on taking proactive action, but it is hard. For me, it helps a lot to know I am not the only going through this stuff right now, and the more I read about other threads, the more I realize how most of my situation is (sadly) standard.
I am not a vet, so take this with a grain of salt, but you filing for D does not seem like Plan A or Plan B behaviour. So I would focus on Plan A and prepare for Plan B as best you can. You filing for D seems like a waste of time at this point. I could be wrong though!
Getting WW out of the house without the kids is a challenge I can empathize with. You need to talk to a lawyer about that one, as I am.
I often feel I give WW too much credit, or worry too much about her response. I know when I hit plan B, I am going to have things setup so I am ready for whatever happens.
As I gather my thoughts, and do a situation assessment, I am confused about where I am at, and what I am dealing with.
My time here starts with WW asking for separation when there was an EA (which I exposed and killed), and has evolved into a ONS that I exposed and killed, and another ONS that I discovered happened before my second exposure. I am still gathering info about this second ONS, and whether it might be more than a ONS. Currently, I now have reason to believe there still may be contact. Gathering evidence.
Also, I now realize there have probably been several ONS in the past (before I got to MB).
We have been going to MC, and one of the questions the counsellour has asked WW is, "is it totally over", and "if not, will you agree to not see OM in the interim". WW has avoided answering for a long time, but most recently said "it is not totally over, but I can not agree to not get involved with others". Great wayward logic!
At the time, I avoided responding, as I was too stunned to, and I knew that my response would likely lovebust majorly! After some contemplation, I decided that I may as well proceed with Plan A until I had proof of other ONS or EA/PA.
My question is, is her inability to agree to not have relations with OM enough to flip to Plan B in itself? Or should I wait until I have evidence of active action?
I'm not a veteran here, so maybe my opinion isn't what would be recommended. But I have to ask, what makes you willing to stay married to a woman who has had possibly multiple one night stands and EA/PA's? This isn't one affair, this is multiple partners and almost a behavior pattern of long-standing from your descriptions. Is there something in you that makes this tolerable to you and makes you continue to seek trying to save the relationship?
I guess I can see trying to salvage a marriage with one mistake but this is multiple assaults to your relationship by her.
"it is not totally over, but I can not agree to not get involved with others."
Wow, talk about entitlement! This woman does not want to be married, that's my take on it.
A horrible example of a parenting role model, too.
I'm sorry, mfoss.
I'm not a veteran here, so maybe my opinion isn't what would be recommended. But I have to ask, what makes you willing to stay married to a woman who has had possibly multiple one night stands and EA/PA's? This isn't one affair, this is multiple partners and almost a behavior pattern of long-standing from your descriptions. Is there something in you that makes this tolerable to you and makes you continue to seek trying to save the relationship?
I guess I can see trying to salvage a marriage with one mistake but this is multiple assaults to your relationship by her.
It is not tolerable to me to be sure. It is possibly salvageable, and I committed to exploring that as best I can, as long as I think there is a sliver of hope. That is why I am here!
I suppose I take some solace in reading other success tories where there has been equal or greater betrayal. However, I am also open to cutting bait, and all feedback is welcome and appreciated, including the 2x4.
"it is not totally over, but I can not agree to not get involved with others."
Wow, talk about entitlement! This woman does not want to be married, that's my take on it.
A horrible example of a parenting role model, too.
I'm sorry, mfoss.
Thanks for your empathy Fred. Is your take that I should hit Plan B based on current circumstances? Or are you thinking Plan D?
mfoss, the MB way is Plan B -- which is a precursor to Plan D, should the marriage not survive.
The choice is yours, and I'll support you whichever way you choose to go.
Had a bit of a plan A fail tonight. it can be so hard. at least I am getting slightly better at catching myself and stopping total damage, but I can't believe my lack of discipline in this department at times. In other areas of my life I can control myself quite well, but this stuff is such a challenge. Ugh!
Ok, time to regroup. I can't let a small failure stop me from the general plan. I have some work to do tonight.
So, I am not sure where I am at, or even what I am doing!
I feel like I may need to take a couple/few of days off work in order to commit myself to making real progress on my personal life. It just seems that I struggle to find the time and energy to do both well. Clearly in the past I have been happy to immerse myself in work, and avoid dealing with issues. Now, there is some of that (it feels good to have some positive distraction), but I feel I am at a critical point in my personal life and that I should not be "fitting it in". I may need to clear the decks and suffer the consequences (which I am sure I can recover from).
mfoss, I totally agree with Lady Longlegs. You have gone above and beyond with dealing with your foggy WW! I hear you agonize about whether your plan A is good enough, and your WW is telling- TELLING- you that she may or may not sleep with other men...but hold on 'cause she may (or may not) come back to you....talk about a fence sitting cake eater!! And I think Fred hit it on the head...STDville...
This is about YOU now, and what YOU need. I get that you need to plan your plan B, and doing a great plan A to leave a good impression when you go to plan B is a good strategy. BUT- you have to have a time limit I think. Decide how long you need to plan A and plan your plan B and then stick to it. There HAS to be a cut off point determined by YOU!
You're going to do serious harm to your mental health if you keep up with this. Plan B will get her off the fence, and protect YOU.
FWIW from a FWW.....
mfoss, I totally agree with Lady Longlegs. You have gone above and beyond with dealing with your foggy WW! I hear you agonize about whether your plan A is good enough, and your WW is telling- TELLING- you that she may or may not sleep with other men...but hold on 'cause she may (or may not) come back to you....talk about a fence sitting cake eater!! And I think Fred hit it on the head...STDville...
This is about YOU now, and what YOU need. I get that you need to plan your plan B, and doing a great plan A to leave a good impression when you go to plan B is a good strategy. BUT- you have to have a time limit I think. Decide how long you need to plan A and plan your plan B and then stick to it. There HAS to be a cut off point determined by YOU!
You're going to do serious harm to your mental health if you keep up with this. Plan B will get her off the fence, and protect YOU.
FWIW from a FWW.....
Thanks HTH, always good to get feedback, especially from a FWW! I love the "former" part of that.
To be clear, should recovery start, there will be multiple health checks on WW before I go near her sexually. Clearly a Plan B condition as well. I do not have a death wish!
My current thinking is to:
- get my plan B ready ASAP (making progress)
- continue to Plan A in the meantime
Once my plan B is ready, I can hit it when needed. Before then, it is academic. Right now, I am using the six month limit as my hard line, but circumstances can change that.
Oddly, I actually find Plan A to be useful in terms of challenging me to make real personal changes, and confront things I am afraid of. It is kind of like a boot camp, and while it sucks at times, I am actually making many improvements in terms of myself. If/when I plan b (which I admit is likely), it will be like taking weights off my ankles in terms of making further personal progress.
I often write down questions I have, and then try and answer them as a way to deal with things that are bothering me. Often, I am able to come up with good answers based on MB principles after some contemplation. Below are some questions and answers I am not 100% sure I have correct, appreciate your feedback:
- should I talk to family members that are close to her?
I should probably be directing my efforts to plan A efforts/ meeting ENs, improving myself as opposed to pro-actively trying to win the PR war, I should not avoid them at all, but they should not be my priority generally
- how do I express my requirement for no other men best, not as a selfish demand
probably best to avoid expressing it much, but if I have to, explain the reasons are that it is hurtful to me and the kids for her to be involved with others right now
- how do I express my requirement for no other men best, not as a selfish demand
probably best to avoid expressing it much, but if I have to, explain the reasons are that it is hurtful to me and the kids for her to be involved with others right now
It is NECESSARY to DEMAND there be no other man in your marriage.You aren't going to get into an argument about it. You will just state the fact that you will not tolerate it and change the subject.
- how do I express my requirement for no other men best, not as a selfish demand
probably best to avoid expressing it much, but if I have to, explain the reasons are that it is hurtful to me and the kids for her to be involved with others right now
It is NECESSARY to DEMAND there be no other man in your marriage.You aren't going to get into an argument about it. You will just state the fact that you will not tolerate it and change the subject.
Cool, thanks Scotty! I won't pussyfoot around this one. I am glad I asked.
I often write down questions I have, and then try and answer them as a way to deal with things that are bothering me. Often, I am able to come up with good answers based on MB principles after some contemplation. Below are some questions and answers I am not 100% sure I have correct, appreciate your feedback:
- should I talk to family members that are close to her?
I should probably be directing my efforts to plan A efforts/ meeting ENs, improving myself as opposed to pro-actively trying to win the PR war, I should not avoid them at all, but they should not be my priority generally
- how do I express my requirement for no other men best, not as a selfish demand
probably best to avoid expressing it much, but if I have to, explain the reasons are that it is hurtful to me and the kids for her to be involved with others right now
Of course you should be working on Plan A if that's where you're at. But that doesn't preclude exposure - yes, her family needs to know. It's not a matter of winning or losing a PR war, it's a matter of rallying the forces you need to help extinguish the A.
Requiring that there be no other man is NOT a selfish demand! That's what married people pledge! That absolutely has to be a requirement for the protection of your M. Do not waffle over this! Simply state it in clear, calm language "For our M to survive we must be faithful to each other and not allow anyone else to meet our needs." This is non-negotiable.
Of course you should be working on Plan A if that's where you're at. But that doesn't preclude exposure - yes, her family needs to know. It's not a matter of winning or losing a PR war, it's a matter of rallying the forces you need to help extinguish the A.
Requiring that there be no other man is NOT a selfish demand! That's what married people pledge! That absolutely has to be a requirement for the protection of your M. Do not waffle over this! Simply state it in clear, calm language "For our M to survive we must be faithful to each other and not allow anyone else to meet our needs." This is non-negotiable.
I have exposed to her family, twice. The condensed version of my story starts with ILYBICBWY, me exposing and killing an EA. Then ~ 6 weeks later two ONS, which I exposed the one (I only recently found out about the other one, they were close together, and both before the second exposure). Since then, no OM. But, no agreement to not get involved with others.
It is a bit strange, because right now, AFAICT, there is no OM. However, WW will not agree to not see other people, even though she is not (to my knowledge) currently doing so. She is under a fair amount of social pressure to not do this. It is a bit odd to be sure, and I am plan A'ing while I prepare for plan B.
For the record, just had a mostly lovely day with WW. Our first completely conflict free day in recent memory. We even made dinner together. Getting ready for tmrw, and all it may bring!
GLAD to hear it. It's nice when the sun shines in a Plan A world isn't it?
Chin up and more forward.
Good for you man. Enjoy it.
mfoss, are you still here? No word from you in about ten days or so...
What's happening in your sitch?
Hi Fred - still here! Have not been as diligent in checking in recently, took a bit of a break from the boards and hit the books. I also booked a few days off work as well and did a stay-cation to give myself some relief from work pressure, and to make some positive steps for myself. Then, I had a bad cold for the last three / four days, so that sucked!
Where are things at? While, I am still in plan A, and heading towards plan b in May. I have really been focussing on plan a, and, I am continually surprised at how hard it is, and how much there is to it (I seem to keep finding new things to improve upon)! I do take pleasure in surprising WW with my behaviour / new habits, though, and try not to beat myself up too much over lapses.
The latest real success has been with the kids, I have been all over them, and WW is affected by that. I am surprised myself at how hard it has been for me in some ways to make time and to engage them, but there has been a lot of progress lately, and the kids are happy to hang with me and have my attention. It is very emotionally rewarding as well.
Thanks for checking in, hope you are well.
Hello mbers,
It has been a while since I have posted, here is where things are at:
- WW is still @ home in the spare room
- there is no active OM currently
- WW maintains she still wants to move out, and has threatened legal action to get $ to support this
- my 6 month window for plan A is up
- I have been plan A'ing as best I can, but I have to say, I enjoy when WW is not around
My options are:
- continue to plan A (it is getting hard)
- Plan B, I do have some concerns about the difficulty of this, and it seems strange when there is no OM, but I suppose the point of Plan B is that it is hard
- Soft plan B (plan D) where I harness the positive personal momentum I have, and remove WW from my future, but avoid some of the difficult practical elements of a standard Plan B
I suppose the big question is, do I still want to save my M?
If yes, Plan A or Plan B. If no, soft plan B.
The trouble is, I don't really know what I want! On one hand, I think that I will come out better from this experience regardless of what happens, and I am kind of excited about moving on a reducing the stress of Plan A living, and avoiding the stress of a "real Plan B".
I feel like a waffling fence sitter, and I don't like it!
Thoughts, support, 2x4 beatings, all appreciated.
Hi mfoss, I've thought about you several times. You seemed to have dropped off the board one day.
No more Plan A. Six months is the recommended limit. After that time, your Love Bank starts going into the red big time.
Move her out into Plan B. She's threatening legal action? Nonsense. But let her, I say. If $$ are a limiting factor to her moving out, how is she going to pay for an attorney?
Are you sure there's no OM activity? How are you checking?
If there's no OM and you've been working a stellar Plan A and she
still wants to move out, then I think even more that you should consider Plan B/D. You should want a woman who will at least give saving your marriage a try.
She's already broken down the doors to your marriage. What's next? The walls?
reducing the stress of Plan A living, and avoiding the stress of a "real Plan B"
What does this mean? After six months of Plan A, I can't imagine how a man could be any more stressed. Plan B is about
recovery. YOUR RECOVERY.
True, Plan B is designed to show the WS how good a thing they had now that it's gone, but it's even more about building a happy, healthy life for yourself.
So that if the WS never comes back you've still built a good life for yourself!
The only stress I've had in Plan B comes from the accidental "breaks" in it. And even there I'm getting better. For an example,
read my latest update in the Divorcing/Divorced forum.
Good to see you back. I know you'll make the right decision.
Hi Fred -
Thanks for always jumping on my situation. I have to say I felt a great deal of relief in reading your response. I have not been around as much, as I have been focussing as best I can on Plan A, and have not had a lot of questions, just the standard struggles and small victories.
I am not sure I can Plan A much longer, so I am going to Plan B. And whatever lies beyond that I look forward to in earnest!
WW can get state support for a lawyer, she has been once for a consultation. At this point, I kind of feel if I can negotiate an initial lump sum to get her out and a monthly payment for CS (we would split custody) in absence of getting lawyers involved, I will be ahead of the game in terms of stress and complexity, and set up the environment for Plan B. It sounds too easy, so I am probably being naive.
Appreciate any guidance.
Are you sure there's no OM activity? How are you checking?
I am checking very thoroughly, I am quite sure. I would not be surprised at all if there was another ONS tomorrow though.
I actually ran into the "catalyst" OM on the street yesterday. We had a short conversation, civil. No point in expending much time there. He has respected NC, much to WW's frustration.
Are you sure there's no OM activity? How are you checking?
I am checking very thoroughly, I am quite sure. I would not be surprised at all if there was another ONS tomorrow though.
???
Did I miss something?
What makes you say that?
???
Did I miss something?
What makes you say that?
Nope, you did not miss anything, I just would not be terribly surprised.
What makes me say that is that is has happened already, and there is no reason to be shocked if it happened again. My second exposure was a ONS, and WW is clearly capable of it.
What makes me say that is that is has happened already, and there is no reason to be shocked if it happened again. My second exposure was a ONS, and WW is clearly capable of it.