Three years ago, my wife and I moved from New York City to a suburb in the southern U.S. She grew up in Manhattan and never adjusted to the move. We have two kids. She is a stay-at-home mom. I work all day. We bought a house during our move that financially strapped us to the point where we rarely get babysitters or go on dates.

A year after moving down South, my wife and her cousin/best friend who lives in Massachusetts started writing a screenplay together. It was through her cousin that she met the other man. He lives in London, but his parents have a home in her cousin�s town.

What started out as �just friends��he was helping them get connections for their screenplay�quickly developed into an email affair that has now become physical on several �writing� trips to Massachusetts.

The OM is a major bullshitter and has convinced her cousin, her cousin�s husband, another cousin, and my wife, that they are starting this family of creativity where they can work on various projects together. Unfortunately, only my wife has talent. The others are not very good. My wife knows that, but is too caught up in the affair to think rationally.

After filming the last screenplay, my wife is now convinced she wants to write screenplays and direct with her cousin and wants to divorce me and move with my kids to Massachusetts. The affair and the project have given her a sense of independence from what she perceives as me controlling her in our marriage. But we seemed to have a happy marriage before moving down South.

I discovered the affair by accessing her email at the end of August and we have not had sex since. Since discovery, we have been in counseling, but seem to be making no progress. She seems hell bent on starting this new life and writing with her cousin, her cousin�s friends, and the OM.

Thus far she has refused to end communication with the OM. She knows I monitor her cell phone and computer at home, so she sneaks to the public library to send him emails. She says she is not trying to deliberately hurt me. She also chats on the phone with her cousin/best friend, who I believe is a very bad influence on her, every day. Her cousin applies a lot of pressure on my wife to move up there and so they can write together and finish editing the film they shot, in which the OM stars. It is not a good film and none of them really know how to shoot or edit a film.

Should I even stay married? I want her to give up the film project in which the OM stars. I want her to cease contact with the OM. And I want her to separate from her bad influence cousin. So far, she doesn�t want to any of those things.

Any advice would be helpful. I love my wife and I'm really worried about my kids. She and these friends in Massachusetts are really drinking the Kool-Aid.

Hello,
You need to contact an attorney immediately to understand your options. She may be planning to take your children away from you to another state. You must be proactive and be prepared to show in court how it would be detrimental to your children. Contact an attorney now and find a way to block her from even thinking about doing this. Good luck

Your wife sounds feeble minded. You need to start the old exposure routine to try to kick start her brain. Kids, parents, friends, everyone needs to know she is having sex with this guy. His wife, as well, if he has one.
Sorry your wife has decided to do this to you and the kids. It's incredibly selfish.

Mundane life in the burbs raising two little ones vs moving around the electic artsy crowd writing screenplays and sipping lattes while hubby takes care of the bills and family.

Definately have a tough one here - lack of maturity on her - battle between reality and fantasy.

Mark's Troubleshooting Manual


Need to do some reading and check out Marks Troubleshooting Manual on the basics. Good stuff here. Will give the overview on how to tackle this.

Reminder - this is marathon and not a sprint. Buckle up for the ride.

Get a lawyer asap to find out your rights - keep the kids in state by acting first.

Yeah, it's fantasy vs. reality. She goes up to Massachusetts and drinks and smokes and has a grand old time leaving me and all her responsibilities at home with the kids.

On the one hand, I kind of want to divorce her just to see her crash and burn. But on the other hand, I love her with all my heart. I just think she's gone temporarily insane. Plus, I've got two kids, so I'm really afraid for their futures. If we do divorce, and if she marries the OM, I highly doubt it will last. The guy is all talk. And the last thing I want is for my 2 kids to go through 2 divorces before their 10 years old.

First - do not allow your WW to take children out of their home. Tell her you believe in saving marriages not destroying it. Your wife is a cakeater - she wants best of both worlds. You need to expose the A to whoever can help you put pressure on the A. Read more about exposure in the Newsletter Forum. Do not make it easy for her to leave the home to meet OM. Your WW is an alien right now - you can't believe anything she tells you. Go also to the Notable Posts forum - you will find good info for Newbies. Below are the links to Plan A - you will feel better if you have a plan. Definately seek legal counsel to protect you and kids.

Plan A&B
Plan A & Plan B

Carrot & Stick
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1640788#Post1640788

Gg

My friend what you are doing is enabling her affair. She continues to go do another state,drink, smoke, write, and screw the OM while you take care of the chidren and pay the bills. What is wrong with this picture. NO CONSEQUENCES TO HER ACTIONS EQUALS NO MOTIVATION TO CHANGE!You need to expose to everyone,see a lawyer and stop enabling this affair. If the roles were reversed, do you honestly think your wife would be so accepting and accommodating as you have been? Your wife has shown that she has no respect for you. If you do not respect yourself then who will?

First, STOP paying for ANYTHING that helps her have an affair. Pay for groceries. Gas. Cable TV. Do NOT pay for her cell phone or her internet, if she uses them to contact OM.

Second, call everyone in her family and in HIS family, and tell them what they are planning and doing.

Third, go to the bank and put a hold on ALL your financial affairs so she can't take money. She WILL.

Fourth, go to your lawyer and have them set up some sort of protection against her moving the children.

This is WAR, TE. For now, you have to FIGHT - either to get her back or at least to keep your children with you.

I did not know she was having an affair while she was taking these trips. I certainly am not an enabler. Since I found out, she has not met with the OM. But she has set up a secret email acct that I found out about. I have basically shut down her communication with him via her cell phone, which she knows I monitor, and her computer, which I also monitor. I have also called her out on her visits to the library where I know she is maintaining contact with him via the new email acct.

Is OM married or have GF? Have you tried to contact either?

How Affairs Should End

You need to start Plan A and learn real well the stick part of Plan A (Carrot & Stick).

Gg

OM is not married. Has no girlfriend. He seems to be a desperate, lonely guy in love with my wife.

Are her parents and siblings around - do they know what is going on. Will they help and support you by putting pressure on the A?

Gg

I have told 2 of her 3 brothers. One just this past week. Her parents have just been told (by her) as well JUST YESTERDAY, and they are very unhappy with her. Things seem to be shifting in my favor... for the moment.

TE, its real important the affair be exposed to the family members BY YOU. A WS will spin the story. I would strongly suggest you call all key family members and tell them the correct story and ------------->REAL IMPORTANT-------> ask for their help. Ask for their advice. Ask them to use their influence in persuading your W to end her affair.

Secondly, I would start talking to your wife about what will happen if she doesn't end her affair. Let her know that you cannot live like this much longer and that if this comes to divorce, you will be suing for full custody on grounds of adultery. Right now, she probably doesn't think you will do anything to stop her. But if she knows you will not roll over and die for her, she may have 2nd thoughts.

Are there any more key relatives to whom you could expose? Such as her grandparents? Your parents? A pastor? A sister? Everyone should know about the affair and she should know they know.

What about the OM's family?

I was thinking of calling my wife's mother to make sure she knew my side of the story as well as whatever my wife told her. I was also thinking of then asking my wife's mother to call the OM's mother, since he has no wife or GF. I believe the OM may have a close relationship with his mother.

I think your kids need to know about her cheating, as well. Harely recommends this. Do it in an age appropriate way.

This would be a good idea. But the point is not to give her your side or her side, but the TRUTH. There is only one side to the truth. That is what needs to happen. So I would call up ALL of the exposure targets yourself and give them the truth. You cannot count on your wife to tell the truth.


This would be a great idea. MrsW's [a FWW] mother called up her OM and scared the crap out of him. He dumped MrsW that day.

I am afraid though that my wife might resent me for having the OM break up with her. He could play that as if he were the hero. I would much prefer if my wife ended the relationship with him.

One thing to keep an eye out for. I doubt it's applicable at this time as she's likely in WW la-la land; however, keep an eye out for another states drivers license.

I have a friend who was living somewhat peacefully here in Michigan with his wife and two kids. She went on a vacation, back to her hometown in Illinois and promptly filed for divorce. Turns out she had applied for an obtained a Illinois driver's license about 7 months prior and was able to successfully claim Illinois residency in the divorce & custody case.

I don't believe most courts would uphold such fraudulent and deceptive actions but you never can be sure what will happen in any particular matter.

Thus...be on the lookout for this.

In the meantime...have you read through this thread?

For Newly Betrayed Spouses by Longhorn on the Notable Posts Board

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- A little something you can start doing NOW, I strongly suggest you start, recommence or continue taking your children to church/temple with you EVERY Sunday. As your WW is a Stay-at-home-Mom, you are behind the eight ball as far as winning custody almost everywhere (I'm not saying you are going to lose). Thus, supposing she wins primary custody she MAY choose to attempt to "relocate" the children back to Mass or NY (Manhatten). You can fight it and win and having strong local ties to a church will certainly help your case besides the fact that it MAY help win you at least every Sunday with your children in the original custody case (the more you "win" upfront the less likely she can move). Here is a listing of factors which you may be utilizing if and when you were ever confronted with having to file for a modification of custody order because your WW wanted to move out of state. Factors from Lawyers.com:

Thats ok if she resents you for ruining her affair. She will get over it. What you will not get over is the affair if you don't do everything in your power to bust it up. Your marriage can survive some temporary anger, it can't survive an affair. You really can't afford to be choosy how the affair ends, it matters not a whit in the end.

Bah-humbug. This is war. Do whatever you can to get the affair to end. Until it's over and there is "no contact" whatsoever, there is no saving your marriage. I guess it would be nice if your wife just ended it of her own accord but if you could manage to get OM to do it 1 day, 1 week, 1 month or 1 year sooner then DO IT.

It matters not how it ends, only that it ends. Recovery and repentence don't rely on how the affair ended at all.

In fact, OM's dumping WW's is the MUCH more likely outcome. It's the nature of the beast. WW's think they "love" their OM's whereas single (and married) OM's merely view the relationship as non-committed sex. Single OM's particularly dump WW's when the "relationship" becomes more trouble than it's worth. When the OM's mom in your situation finds out what her boy is up to...she will hopefully tear him a new one. OM will have to face the real prospect that his mother will NEVER accept a future relationship between he and your wife and, if he chooses to continue pursuing it, he risks his own relationship with his mother. You see...OM and WW likely have this fantasy wherein she divorces you and as far as his family is concerned over in Europe she "took up" with him AFTER the divorce has been filed. They will play it as though your marriage was LONG AGO over. She (and he) will rewrite your marital history as though you two were merely acquaintenances...that never loved each other and once she filed for divorce, wha-la, she met OM.

Exposure dispells this fantasy real quick...even if OM's Mom doesn't rip him a new one at least REALITY seeps in.

Mr. Wondering

TE,

I'm a BH who was afraid of my WW's anger. Don't be. If you're making her angry then you're doing the right things. It is ok for the BH to stand his ground and show a little backbone and testosterone. Call the other man out and tell him to leave your wife alone.

You also need to make sure to let your wife know that you will not simply lay down and let her leave with the kids.

I very, very, very strongly advise you to get a lawyer now. She may take the kids and file for divorce and custody in her new state and this will hurt you.

I believe that the best thing to do with a WW is to follow the plans here from MB, but I also believe in playing massive hardball. Consult a lawyer and draw up divorce papers to be turned in immediately if she decides to bolt. Stack the custody deck completely in your favor.

Do not, under any circumstances, unless you want to end up paying out the nose for another man to raise your kids with your stuff, DO NOT let her take the kids out of the state or out of your house.

If you live in a state that lets you, then sue the OM for alienation of affection. I don't think you can do so in Massachussetts, but it's worth looking into.

The biggest point in all of this is that you must think ahead of her and outsmart her so you don't end up like many of us BHs did. We were afraid of our WW's anger and cowered and gave in to her demands thinking this was all temporary and we'd get it all back once she came to her senses.

It never happened in my case and it took years to get back on my feet and I'm still clawing my way out of the debt of the massive custody fight.

It's time to play hardball. If she is lost, then be prepared to protect yourself with the law.

I really believe that making a woman see all she stands to lose and the fight she'll have on her hands will wake her up more than anything.

This is one of the toughest things you will ever face. Keep coming here for advice.

Good point. You would not want to inconvenience,embarrass or anger your wife just because she is lying, hurting your kids and abusing you. I'm sure she will come around of her own accord as she has already demonstrated such good and character.
Is there any way you can run interference for the two lovebirds and deflect attention from them. Her gratitude will , surely, lead her back to you.

TE...

It gets REAL tricky trying to be "firm" and "stand up" for yourself in these situations but your wife, IF and WHEN she ever extracates herself from this situation will end up respecting you more...in the future...for enduring all that you did to save your family. She will hopefully look upon you very fondly one day for standing up to her in her foolishness. She will NOT resent you...she will appreciate what you've done. Even though it won't feel much like appreciation for a very long time....trust us, when she gets it, she'll get it.

If she doesn't ever end the affair...YOU will respect yourself MORE for standing up for yourself and not allowing yourself to be pushed around by a lunatic, who is fueled by entitlement and bent on taking EVERYTHING you value.

HOWEVER, standing up for yourself must be done tactfully and skillfully. You will ALWAYS be running the risk of setting yourself up for removal from the marital home based upon a filing of a restraining order. She will use almost anything you do and twist it to say she is scared of you as getting you out of the house is the quickest and fastest way to get MONEY AND CUSTODY as well as your cooperation in your distruction (you'd soon be TRYING to negotiate every other weekend and wednesday night visitation). One BH here was "removed" by the police because he demanded his WW take her telephone conversation with OM out of the house. She "claimed" he physically blocked her leaving the room she was in and the police requested/demanded he leave for the night...whereupon the next morning her attorney filed a restraining order and he was out for three weeks.

Be smart. Whatever you do...remain calm and NEVER lose control of yourself. Your children are counting on you to fight a calm, tactical and controlled battle to save their family. This is war.

Mr. Wondering

Interesting stuff. Thank you.

Check the law in your state, but you can record your conversations with her if you live in a one party state. Don't reveal that you're doing this if you can do it and carry it with you for your own protection. When she starts ranting and threatening you, record.

This saved one of the BHs here in court who was able to submit his recordings into evidence.

My friend, you are in a war and the sooner you understand this the better. She will manipulate your emotions and trick you at every chance and will likely make false claims if she can do so.

Trust me. I thought it was not possible in my sitch and it happened.

There was another BH here who kept recorders around the house. She called the cops on him, claiming he was threatening her. When the cops came he played back her ranting and raving and threats and it was clear she was the one who was out of control.

You're a man and the law will side with her and be biased for her. Keep this in mind.

Wayward women play lots of dirty tricks in this battle.

The law is on the side of the prepared.

Well, I just had a long chat with my wife's mother to make sure my wife hadn't told her a pack of lies. Now my wife's parents know the truth.

I also suggested to her mother that she tell the OM's mother.

Standing by for the furious phone call from my wife when she finds out.

We are here for you. When you hear her ranting about how evil you are, folks here will support you. Nice work. I love it when these WSs are exposed.
Told your kids yet?

I am not going to tell my kids. They are only 5 and 4. I just can't do that to them.

Pep updated the Carrott & Stick thread - you might want to reread it.

Peppers Carrot & Stick of Plan A

Good job on exposing. Yes she will be furious but others are correct - your M can survive anger, not affair.

Gg

Not sure her parents will tell the OM's mother. They want to mull it over for a while. If they don't I probably will, but do you think they could come after me for harassment?

I highly doubt it unless you use some aggressive approach. You contact them and make it short and simple. I haven't seen it happen here where OP parents filed harrassment against a BS trying to save M. We have lawyers that post here - they can give you more advice.

I think that should be the least of your worries.

Gg

Who, her parents or his? IMO, unless you repeatedly contact them after they ask you to stop, no. Just contacting them and informing them of the truth , in no way puts you at any risk.

I understand about not telling your kids. I think it is a very personal decision. My kids were teenagers and were told. You might want to read the following to help you understand what your kids are learning...

What lessons children learn from infidelity

I am also super torn up inside. Although I love my wife and kids and want to save the marriage and am going to give Plan A a shot, a part of me just wants to end it. I just don't know if I can get over the pain and the images and the lying.

She got to experience new love again, why shouldn't I? How can I live with myself and forgive someone after someone has treated me like this? I know it's selfish, but I deserve better than this.

Legit questions. Many very nice, forgiving people simply do not get over this. And, the relationship must end.
Give yourself some time to try to figure out if you can. You may need individual therapy. Some folks get PTSD. It's about as huge an abusive trauma as there is.

PTSD... yeah, probably. I have lost a lot of weight. I think crying all time could boost metabolism. Been hitting the gym relentlessly, too. You know, this could be a great new way get in shape. Maybe I should recommend infidelity to anyone looking to get in shape : )

No, this I wouldn't recommend this to even my worst enemy.

Yeah, I got so cut it was scary. I was more defined than when I played ball in college. Lost 35 lbs in about 2 months.
I could not eat or sleep. I'd jump through the roof if someone came up behind me. There were some strange chemicals released by this ordeal.

The anxiety is hard to deal with. Feeling like I can jump out of my skin. I always need to be doing something or talking. Especially talking. I always need to be doing something, but can't concentrate on anything but the A. It's all-consuming!

Yup...the infidelity diet.

Step one: Eat nothing
Step Two: Feel everything

Mr. W

p.s.- As a lawyer I can tell you you've got nothing to worry about as far as harassment charges. Not to say you won't receive threats...you might. WS's will often threaten legal actions in an attempt to manipulate you. However, rest assured NO wayward or wayward supporter ever wants to go into court and testify about their behavior in an open courtroom. When push comes to shove...they avoid the light of day at all costs. Generally, they don't follow through with much of anything as they have trouble going to the bank and the grocery store in the same day because they are just too obsessed with their addiction and how cool/hip/young they think they are.

Very Normal. See your doc about meds.

I had to take sleeping aids.

I wish I had some of the thoughts you have as far as just putting an end to the marriage. I didn't. I was desperate to save it and out of that desperation I made some terrible mistakes that took me years to undo.

Keep your head about you. Knowing you can end the marriage and survive to be on your own and be just fine can be a very powerful thing.

Just protect your rights as a dad. That's the one thing I am passionate about. I want to help BHs make sure they keep their head enough to do the things they need to do to protect themselves as fathers.

Stay in your home. Don't let her take the kids out of the state. Consult a lawyer and have divorce papers drawn up and ready.

Understand that being the first to file gives you an advantage.

Exposure Update:

I just got off the phone with the OM's parents. Wow was I nervous! His mother wanted nothing to do with what I was telling her, said it did not pertain to her. It seemed like she may have already knew. But his father said that he did not know any of this.

I told the OM's dad that his son and my wife were having an affair. That it was destroying my marriage. That I have two kids. And that I want their son to leave my wife and family alone.

Then his dad said, "okay, thank you," and kind of abruptly hung up. Hopefully, the mom and dad are discussing it now and giving that jerk son of theirs a call.

The OM's parents live in a pretty posh town. I'm sure this is not the type of news their society friends want spread all over town about their precious son!

Great job! The hard part is not knowing what they do with the information. But better to have told...

Who else did you tell?

YES !

So far, I've told my wife's parents, her aunt and uncle who live in the town in Massachusetts where the affair has taken place (told via my wife's parents), and 2 of her 3 brothers. And today I told the OM's parents.

It's really hitting the fan now. Since my wife's parents found out, her attitude has definitely shifted. She seems much more apologetic and sorry. But it's only been a week, so we'll have to see whether this is a real change in attitude or not.

Best friends? Cousins she's close to? Someone close enough to sit her down and talk to her?

I contacted a ton of different people, but the opinion of two people eventually had an effect:

1. A friend from church who's high opinion of her really mattered a lot. This friend pointed out an article in the latest Church magazine addressing infidelity, and it changed FWW's mind regarding her "friendship" with the Other Man.

2. The other man's wife. She persuaded him to leave us alone for the sake of our family, and even though my wife desperately and repeatedly emailed him hoping for a reply, he didn't do so.

You never really know who will have the most impact on your spouse or your spouse's lover. Basically, if you think they might have any influence at all, put 'em on the list!

Good job on the exposure. I know it's incredibly hard to do. It feels vengeful and opposite of what you should be doing... but doing what you thought you should be doing got you in this mess in the first place.

She's taking a lot of heat right now. She has a very close relationship with her parents and brothers. They're all talking to her. And it seems to be working.

I am a bit worried though that this is all like I'm breaking her spirit. The big reason for the affair was because it was an outlet for her to feel independence and freedom, albeit horribly destructive and at my expense.

While I intend to do all I can to crush the affair, it kind of feels like I am breaking the will of a wild animal? I don't want her to feel like I just beat her into emotional submission. This affair has to end, I understand, I just wish it didn't have to be like this.

I understand, but SHE caused all this. She certainly had a BIG enough spirit to mortally wound YOU, didn't she?

Save your compassion for when the fog lifts; she'll need it then, when she realizes the devastation she has caused.

And she's probably going to do all she can to make you feel like a slug in the next few days.

Above all, show her a calm, smart, loving, forgiving husband who was ALWAYS there.

TE,

You are not breaking the spirit of a Wild Animal. Your are convincing the aliens to beam your W back from the Mothership. Seriously, she is going to be down and in withdrawal for awhile because she KNOWS what she has done is wrong and not in keeping with her families opinion of her or of what is right.

THat is just part of the consequences of being a liar and cheater and until further notice that is what she is. Will she remain that way or be worthy of such labels? Perhaps not. Many of the finest folks on this site were former Wayward spouses. The "former" part comes because deep down they knew what they were doing was wrong, and deep down they really were good folks. It just had to get out from under the addiction of the affair.

I am hoping this is true of your W. She cannot heal, and you cannot save this marriage until the AFFAIR is broken. she is not the affair, but she is the one having it. You are in fact doing your best to break the affair, and right now the affair defines her. So it seems to you, that you are breaking her. You are not.

You still love her, you still want to save this marriage, and you will certainly entertain the concept of forgiveness and rebuilding this marriage. BUT, the affair must end first, that must be broken.

God Bless,

JL

A key part of our recovery so far was my FWW learning that MarriageBuilders works for BOTH partners. Right now, the affair must end for you to recover.

After the affair is over, and you begin recovery efforts, you're going to find that BOTH OF YOU have a lot of work to do to make your marriage right again. Neither of you met each other's most important emotional needs. Neither of you avoided Love-Busting each other. You didn't spend enough time together. You weren't honest enough with each other.

Fixing these kinds of deep problems takes work. You've learned humility the hard way, that despite your best efforts she still chose someone else over you. She's learning humility the hard way, too, that she's imperfect and is capable of being a horrible person to those she cares about the most.

It takes a LOT of humility from both sides to make a recovery work. It's going to take a lot of time, too. Work your plan and give it time to work upon her.

Just got out of a counseling session with my wife. Told her about everyone I have exposed the affair to. My wife is completely embarrassed and furious. She was completely taken off guard, totally knocked for a loop.

She says, now she wants a divorce more than ever. She says this was none of anyone's business. She says she thinks I'm going crazy asking what I was hoping to accomplish.

She says, now that I told the OM's parents, she feels like she has to get on the phone and apologize to him. Apologize to him! The guy who is trying to destroy our family.

She says the big problem with our relationship before was that I was too controlling, and now I've gone and told everyone and this reaffirms her position.

Thoughts?

"Our children and our family are worth fighting for."

"I do marriage. I don't do divorce."

"The truth is light. Secrecy is dark. I chose to live in light."

FWW said that.


FWW said that.


FWW said that.


FWW said that.


FWW said that.

FWW recently thanked me for my exposures to several people who turned her around.

See the pattern?


Note on "controlling"... I hate that word. Did she ever call you controlling before the affair started? My wife never did, even once. And since recovery started, she only uses it when she has foggy moments. Like the word "privacy", it's a euphemism for what she really means:

"Controlling" means "Interfering in my affair".
"Privacy" means "Freedom to conduct my affair without your knowledge or interference."

Once I started substituting those phrases in my head every time FWW used them, it was much easier to deal with. I knew then that I could deal in the truth of what she was saying.

Oh, yeah, and it hurts like hell with the wayward tries to apologize to the other person for the betrayed spouse's PRO-MARRIAGE BEHAVIOR. You feel like they value the opinion of the other person more than yours. It's even worse when they berate you into calling and apologizing yourself (yep, FWW did that to me, too).

And you know what? They DO value the other person more than their marriage. That's part & parcel of the wayward game. Own it. It sucks. It hurts that their priorities are so hideously screwed up that they think an apology is owed to the person who's committing the offense. But that's the foggy wayward thinking for you.

+1 to that. My WW had never used the word "controlling" to describe me, ever! Now she uses it all the time whenever she feels like I'm interfering in her affair.

Well said Barn. My WW said (and is still saying) those exact same things as we are not into recovery yet.

TE, they really all do read from the same script.

Reading from the same script indeed. I think I read everything she came out with in the carrot and stick thread . It was very expected stuff.

She also said that now she really wants to divorce me. I replied, "That's what you said in our last session before Christmas." She said, "Yeah, well now I really mean it."

Our counsellor really doesn't do much, by the way, other than provide a place for us to vent.

Watch her actions more than the words. My wife is saying the EXACT same garbage. I know she has even met with an attorney yet.....she has not filed for D.

If she really wanted to she would. At least part of her doesn't want the D.

Well, if my wife files for D, then what? Does she really want to be a single mom with two little kids? Life right now is hard for her. Imagine if she's on her own. Of course, she can't think logically like this because she's stuck in the fog.

And now her family knows the D will be because of her lying and cheating.

I guess she didn't realize I'd tell her whole family when I found out. She didn't even think I'd find out, never mind her whole family. What a disaster...

And it is just that kind of realization of a disaster that drives a wayward spouse to make the leap back into the marriage, despite the uncertain future with a betrayed spouse. It's not a return to the familiar, it's the knowledge that they can either choose to fix things, or leave them broken with the wreckage in their wake.

IMHO, it all boils down to how much love the wayward and betrayed have for one another after everything. If you're in love, you'll make it work... if you're not in love, what's the point?

THAT is why I love Dr. Harley's approach: the goal is to fall in love and stay in love. Everything you do should support that goal. Because if you reach that goal, you can solve all your other problems and create a mutually-compatible lifestyle that doesn't involve sacrifice...

We didn't talk all day after the counseling session when I told her about who I exposed the A to. We said a few words when putting the kids together, but after the kids went down, my WW went to one room and watched TV while I stayed in the other. Neither one of us said goodnight and both went to our separate beds upstairs and down.

Exposure definitely has her mad, but I really don't care. She was threatening divorce before exposure. She's threatening divorce now. Like that really scares me... Oh no! My lying cheating, abusive, won't-have-sex-with-me wife wants to leave me.

TE-

Withstand the anger. If she is like my WW, she will try all sorts of tactics to manipulate your feelings. Don't fall for it. Stay calm, cool, and collected and be the better man. It's hard. Damn hard, but you can do it.

Thanks Limbo, it's really hard to stay calm. I kind of just want to get a D and say screw it. I love my wife and kids, but she's really crossed the line.

There are many times that I feel the same way. But think about it.... Is that really what you want?? It may come to that, but the way I look at it, if it goes that route I want to be ABSOLUTELY sure that I did EVERYTHING I could possibly do to save the marriage. Not just for me, but for the lives of my children.

Our WWs are behaving identically to what many others did. A good number of the others have recovered their marriage by following this plan. I'm trying to follow that same plan to get similar results. They all said she would spew anger like I've never seen after exposure. Guess what, she did. All the things they told me she would likely say....she said.

This plan might work and it might not. The beauty of it is that along the way, this program helps me to be prepared for either outcome. Through this struggle, we get to become a better person no matter what.

Trust me, I know it is very hard. Try to detach and focus on what your goal is and remember it's not Plan Doormat, it's Plan A. Carrot and Stick. Exposure is the stick part.

One thing to remember, SHE ruined your family, not you. So if you decide to end your marriage, fight like hell to keep the kids in YOUR home, with YOU. Whatever you do, do NOT move out!

It's been four days now since exposure to the OM's parents. WW seems really depressed tonight. Maybe he broke it off with her? Doubt it, but she hasn't told me.

She was pleasant earlier today, but now she is pretty silent and sad looking. Could be she's starting to realize the improbability of her future with the OM now that her parents and his know of the affair.

Perfect time to ramp up your Plan A. Look good, smell good, be great with the kids...as the fog possibly lifts and she looks around and recognizes her surroundings, make sure the first things she sees is a wonderful home.

I'm not sure the fog is lifting. She just seems depressed and bored.

At home in the burbs with 2 kids vs. ditching the kids with me to go have a night on the town and stay in a hotel in Manhattan... uggggh!

Continue to expose. Meanwhile, look good, clean up the house, rebuild yourself.

How did she get enough money to rent an hotel?

Sorry I didn't explain, but last year she flew up to Manhattan for her birthday and ended up staying with the OM at a hotel. The OM paid for the hotel.

Of course, I was at home with the kids thinking she had gone up to the city to see family. Which she did, she just told everyone she was staying at a girl friend's apartment.

The exposure has definitely rattled her. She said she feels like I've "closed off all the exits." She's definitely angry and depressed.

Does exposure ever backfire?

I exposed to WW's parents, brothers, and aunt and uncle, as well as OM's parents over a week ago.

She now seems to be leaning more toward divorce... like to get back at me for exposing her.

Is it possible exposure was the wrong tactic?

No. If your WW does proceed to D, at the very least you've brought forward the timetable of something that likely would have been inevitable anyway.

"No. If your WW does proceed to D, at the very least you've brought forward the timetable of something that likely would have been inevitable anyway."

Agreed. I have only seen the WW continue to walk away because the BH never exposed. The BH refusing to expose has never saved a marriage.

Normal reaction for a WW to get upset and lash out at the BH after exposure. They will threaten they are now leaving. This is the WW trying to make the BH stop exposing. This proves how much WW's fear exposure.

Exposure is the BS's friend.

It is the best tool to end a WW's affair. Exposure does not always work. Though it never hurts.

Can we rephrase this a bit?

Exposure ALWAYS hurts the affair. It just doesn't always mortally wound it.

Unfortunately, I am not just battling the affair/OM, I am also battling my WW's cousin/best friend, who introduced her to the OM, is constantly on the phone with my WW, and basically acts as an enabler.

She is a toxic influence on my WW, and continuously encourages my WW to finish the project they all worked on together, including the OM.

Remember that when the A is over. Your WW's cousin/best friend is not a supporter of your M and will have to go.

Have you told her whole family that cousin is doing that?

Yeah, my WW's family knows. But my WW and this cousin have been best friends for life. Everyone knows this cousin is a bad influence, but no one seems to have any influence over their relationship. They are very tight. Talk on the phone everyday. She was the maid of honor at our wedding.

Yesterday in counseling, my WW says she just wants to be single again and take the kids back to NYC.

So, essentially, she wants to move the kids from our 3,000 sq. ft. home, 800 miles away from me, and be a single mom in the most expensive city in the country. Good luck!

She really has lost her mind. I feel so bad for my kids...

She is angling for what she thinks she can get.

The kids. Single life. (It worked really well for her when you were there as a babysitter!) And for you to finance it all with child support.

You need to make her understand that is NOT an option. The kids aren't going anywhere. Never allow her to move out-of-state with your children! She is free to go. But the kids will be staying right where they are - with you.

Her choices are to repair the marriage and family.
Or leave. Be fully prepared to let her leave.

What I meant was, has anyone had a talk with the COUSIN to tell her to stop ruining people's marriages? Surely they can be honest with her? Maybe no one has ever said such things to her, and it will hit her like a ton of bricks.

No one has talked to this cousin. Not sure anyone could get through to her anyway. She's just as crazy as my WW. I also think this cousin feels better about her own terrible marriage when she sees that her best friend's/my WW's marriage is worse than hers.

Gives her a sort of one-up on my WW.

TE, I was trying to SUBTLELY push you to ask her family to talk to this woman! Why not?

Too late. My WW's parents told WW's cousin's mom+dad. They took my WW's side writing a letter that said, "They support her (my WW) no matter what."

BTW: We're going to start with a new counselor tomorrow. Our current one just seems like she's in over her head with this infidelity stuff. We'll be seeing an infidelity specialist now.

Of course, he doesn't take insurance.

Time to lawyer up.

If she absconds one day while you're at work, and you come home to find the kids moved, it will be next to impossible to get a court order to move them back home. PLEASE talk to a lawyer NOW to see what you can do to ensure the children stay in the marital home. This is way more important than your M right now.

Well, I've been in Plan A for 3 weeks now. Survived WW's fury after exposure. Got a new MC who is great. We're getting along, and for the most part, I just find myself just waiting it out.

My WW has now sleeps in our bed again, after she slept on the couch for 3 months. She doesn't mind if I put my arm around her, but that's about it as far as physical affection. We kiss, a little, but she mostly pulls away. She says she's not ready for sex.

It seems like the affair may be over, I'll see what I can find out in our MC session on Thursday.

But as of yet, she has not agreed to NC, nor to recommit to our marriage. And she still talks to her toxic best friend/cousin every day.

One step at a time.

I guess it just takes time.

The fog babble is infuriating, though. Sometimes when I hear it, I just want to scream, "YOU AREN"T MAKING ANY SENSE, YOU CRAZY, SELFISH -----!!!"

But I suck it up.

What really blows is the feeling that I just have to take this whole affair on the chin. Do I want to lose my wife? No. Do I want to ruin my kids lives? No. Well, then tough on me.

Question:

If you've read my post, you'll notice my WW and her cousin wrote a screenplay and filmed it.

The OM stars in the film and it is based on his band.

Since I discovered the A, I have wanted my WW to give up on the completion of this project, because how can she agree to NC, if his image is all over the footage, and there's a good chance they will have to have him rerecord his lines in an audio booth?

Plus, in an email I intercepted when I discovered the A, she had written, "I'm looking at footage of you (OM) right now and it's really making me smile."

But my WW and her cousin insist they have to finish the project. It's the first film they ever shot and they spent a good deal of time and money on it.

I am really in a jam here. They've got these big dreams of becoming filmmakers (delusions of grandeur) and they see me as being a controlling jerk for not wanting them to pursue their dream, but at the same time the movie they want to complete stars the OM!!! If it didn't, I would have no problem with my WW finishing the edit.

Any suggestions?

WW must pull out of this project.

Do not let another nickel of yours be spent on this film.

Plan A Update:

So, since exposure about 5 weeks ago, my WW has been in NC with the OM. She said NC was mutual, but I think it's because he dropped her after I exposed to his parents.

I have been taking good care of myself, the kids, and making the house a warm and inviting place. I'm in great shape. My WW and I are getting along well. And I'm trying to avoid LBs.

But she still won't fully recommit to the marriage. We still have not had sex and she is still pretty foggy at times. I am trying my best, but I'm running out of gas.

What were your conditions for R? Did you tell her that a NCL should be written and sent(by you after you approve it)?

Have you thought about giving DrH a call? I know it seems expensive, but it seems that the people who do it never complain that it wasn't worth it.

Keep up the Plan A, it will be a long hard journey.

How do you know there is NC?

Keep snooping, quietly!

This is a not a sprint, its a cross country race. Be prepared to plan A til the end of May.

WW has to go through withdrawal from the OM before she will be receptive to your actions. And, she needs time to see that your changes are not here short term.

Update a little more often.

No, a letter was not sent. She says they broke off contact several weeks ago after I exposed. In fact, she says the last email she sent him was to apologize for me contacting his parents. I believe her.

Isn't it a little late to send a NC letter now?

I will do my best to ensure she sticks to NC.

Send that NC letter.

Uncalled for WW to apologize to OM for you exposing OM's parents.

You do not know what was exactly sent.

A proper NC letter must be written by WW and checked and mailed by you to the OM.

How about asking the WW if an apology was needed was not by WW to OM but by OM to you for banging WW.

Yeah, I know. I said something like that to her. I also said to her, "How about apologizing to our kids" but she was really foggy at the time. The fog is definitely lifting though and from what I can tell NC is in place.

After installing a trial keylogger, good for 1 week, I just read that my WW is still indeed in contact with OM.

Unbelievable! She just told me two nights ago, she had no contact with him for several weeks now. More lies.

I confronted WW on contacting OM. She lied and said she had made no contact since early January. Later in the same conversation, she said she had indeed sent him an email about 2 weeks ago but he never responded.

I have also seen an email where she is looking for a place up North (out-of-state) she can take the kids after school lets out.

Well, Are you going to get a lawyer and make sure she cannot take your children away from you? It would be a good idea, the affair is still on.

JL

Yeah, I feel so deflated. I guess it's lawyer time.

We have financial problems so it was something I was hoping to avoid.

Do you think it's best just to get a mediator and work things out that way, or should I definitely get my own lawyer?

You need a lawyer to protect your rights, financial and custody.

Okay. I'll get a lawyer.

I'm feeling just completely worn out. I think I just want to call it quits and file for D.

I feel like I won't be just divorcing my WW though. I know she wants to go back to NY and take the kids. I'll be hundreds of miles away. And who knows where my career will take me.

I feel like I'm also going to be divorcing my kids:(

And I want a pony. You don't always get what you want.


Says who? Why does she automatically get the kids?

Get a lawyer and fight for the kids.

Thanks. That's pretty funny. I needed a good laugh.

I just assume she'll get the kids. She's a stay-at-home mom. Gonna be a real long shot for me to win custody.

Today, I'm definitely leaning toward D. I'm really just sick and tired. I can't imagine some of the people on here doing Plan A for months and months and then Plan B for a couple years! I love my wife and kids, but that will never happen with me. I'm too pissed and disappointed. I can't put up with this insanity. Maybe my WW knows this and that's why she had the affair. Who knows?

If you fight and fight hard, you will get the kids. Maybe not 100% but...

I doubt I'll get the kids. The system is biased toward women. Even waywards. Lets be honest.

Anyway, I'm still young. I can move on. Take the $child support loss each month. Hopefully not pay alimony.

The weird thing about all this is I'm the one who going to be fine if we divorce, and yet I'm the one fighting to save the marriage!

My WW is really screwing her life up (and the kids'). She's going to have to move from our big 4-bedroom house to a crappy apartment. Take a crappy job. Be a single mom. Have no financial support. And I imagine her relationship with OM will fall apart within a year.

Yet she insists everything is going to be rosy. She just has no rational thought right now.

It's amazing, isn't it? All because they are "IN LURVE".

It's exactly the same with my sitch.

And The Leopard will never once admit that what she did was wrong, immoral, unethical, damaging and hurtful. It's all "part of her journey," she is fond of saying.

Now I realize there are more than "things" to life, but she never had it better.

I'm still recovering financially, as well as emotionally.

TE,

What state do you live in?

Don't assume the courts are biased towards women. They are to an extent, but not nearly at the level of before.

I would have gotten 50/50 if I had fought things right off the bat.

My experience with the courts is that they acknowledge the value of father's and do seek to have regular and frequent involevement with fathers.

I too feared the courts, but the reality is different than the perception. Many fathers give away their rights. Those who fight do just fine if they go prepared.

I don't want to mention the state, but it is in the South and father's do have more rights here.

I'm sure if I spent enough money, I could keep her from moving back up North and possibly win custody. But I'm going to have to spend a ton on lawyers.

On Friday, we are going to see our MC again. He is great. Right now, I am no longer speaking to WW. I've had enough of Plan A. Unfortunately, I had expectations and I know you can't in Plan A, but I did.

So now I'm in Plan "live in the downstairs spare bedroom and not talk to WW." I just don't see the point talking to her anymore when every other word out of her mouth is a lie or delusion.

If our MC can't talk some sense into her on Friday, I'm am simply going to have have to file. It's been almost 6 months since D-day and she's shown no remorse or willingness to work on the M.

Trying,

Please see an attorney. I see so many dad's on here just assume that they will not get custody. The courts may blow up her little love nest in NY dream if you have your ducks in a row. Taking your kids out of their home, away from there dad and 700 miles away throws a monkie wrench into the automatic assumption of full custody.

Both my H and my DS got full custody of their minor children. My DS's daughter's mom gave up even her visitation by moving out of state. She was allowed only to visit with the girls if she came back to their home state.

If you want custody start interviewing attorneys and find one who says what you want to hear. If she finds out that she has to stay in the state, it might change her mind about alot of things.

God's Blessings,

Say

I am meeting with an attorney tomorrow.

My wife wanted a kid before she turned 30. We had a kid before she turned 30. She wanted another kid. We had another kid.

I got a job that required relocation. She said, "I'm not moving there unless we buy a house." So we bought a house. A great big expensive house.

And then she cheated on me.

Thanks.

Trying, sometimes that is just the problem with a wayward mind. They always think they want something more. Just a little more will make them happy. Some waywards are jut grass is greener people.

God's Blessings,

Say

It's so infuriating. She says she was unhappy years before the affair. It has nothing to do with the affair.

THEN WHY DID YOU MAKE US BUY A HOUSE??!!

She replies, "Because I thought it would make us happy."

It's the Great Wayward History Rewrite�. If life was so unhappy for all those years, how come we have all these photos of us --taken all over the world-- of us smiling and having such a good time?

Why is it that you used to tell people that you felt your Higher Power put us together? Or that we held hands everywhere we went, and people thought we were the poster children for the Happy Couple?

Yeah, it was all smoke and mirrors. Right.

TE,

It will never make sense, so why bother trying to make sense of it. Just know that all waywards do that same rewrite of history.

"I'm not happy."
"I haven't been happy in ____ years."
"I've never been happy with you."
"I never really knew what happiness was."
"We got married for the wrong reason."
"We got married too ___(soon/young/early/late)"
"I haven't loved you in ___years."
"I never really loved you."
"I never really knew what love is."
"I never really loved you."

Expect to hear any and all of these in combination and individually. They're part of the wayward script. All waywards read from it. If you want to you can pretty much ignore every single word of it. If recovery starts then the wayward won't even recall saying these things 6 months or so down the road.

Mark

I posted this on another thread. Most of it fits here as well.


Larry

Then the BS can carry one that says

Yep

Met with a lawyer today. Initial consultation $250. Basically said he shouldn't take my case because he doesn't work much in my county. Could have told me that on the phone for free when I asked.

Also said I should not have sex with WW because it could affect alimony. Act of sex is like forgiveness.

Have an appt with another lawyer next Thurs.

We've got pictures in Budapest, Vienna, Paris, London, New York, Provence, New England, Long Island, Florida, Philadelphia, and many more places... and we're happy in all of them!

BTW, I heard that gem this weekend: "It's not about the OM."

Really, then why do you keep writing him emails?!!

I've switched from Plan A to more of a 180, time to move on attitude. I can't afford another place to live, so I don't see how a dark plan B is possible. We have no family in this state, and very little money, so I've got nowhere else to live.

I moved downstairs to our spare bedroom and have distanced myself from my WW emotionally. I have been avoiding all talk with her, unless it pertains to the kids.

I am being cold. I feel like filing for D.

This morning we saw our MC and I let my WW know that the window of opportunity for her to save this marriage is rapidly closing. I was very cold and distant in the session.

I told her that I could do better. That I could get someone who didn't lie to me. I could get someone who didn't cheat on me. I could get someone who wanted to have sex with me.

On the ride back from the session, she put her arm around mine. Maybe reality is starting to sink in a little for her... Nah!

I am out of town on business for a few days. Meanwhile, a cousin in WW's family just got very sick and is in the ICU. He may die.

Keylogger reveals WW has contacted OM about this, as he knows the cousin.

How should I confront WW with this info, without revealing my source?

It seems like every time I start to feel bad and want to make things work with my WW, I find that she is still writing him emails.

This is really exasperating!

Yes, it is.

Why don't you do something about it besides make excuses for her?

I am falling apart. It's like a bad dream that keeps getting worse.

Today's WW email to OM:

"You have been my best friend, lover and kindred spirit for 2 years and that's why I still miss you. This is so impossible. And yes, I think I do know you have been all that and more. That's why I keep missing you."

I can't take anymore. I think I just have to file for D...

IF that is what you feel, quit talking and do something.

She has had this affair for almost 1/3 of your marriage. You don't think she is going to just quit it do you? You don't think you just doing a few things is going to make any difference do you?

Something has to change or nothing changes. Your call. You will have support either way as long as you do something.

I would strongly advise better counseling but ultimately you have to decide to do what my old college football coach yelled at my one day.



Ultimately, you may have to do something you don't feel is right or best, but if you do it right.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

My favorite...

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Are you tired of being insane?

Of course I'm tired of being insane. I just keep hoping the fog will lift. I love my kids so much.

And I am so worried about the financial cost of the divorce and selling our house in this market. We are f-ed financially.

I just can't believe she has done this to us, and keeps doing this to us. It is complete insanity!

Tomorrow I meet with a lawyer for an initial consultation. Unless a miracle happens with my WW, I am going to file for D within the next week or so.

Since WW and OM are still contacting via email, I was thinking about one last exposure... to OM's Facebook friends. Not sure I have the energy or even care enough anymore to save my M.

Anyone else done a Facebook exposure?

TE- You are not alone. It is amazing to me how similar we actually are. I am also having a consultation with lawyer tomorrow. I'm planning on filing for legal separation (deep down I still don't want D) and finding out how to have her removed from the house. As a SAHM who just started working full time from the home, she has no intention of leaving and neither do I.

I sort of did a FB exposure. I contacted OMs friends and family after finding him on FB. I got some cooperation with his SIL and sister, but not enough to make a difference. I do recommend it though because it definitely interfered with their little fantasy. WW was furiously defending OM and accused me of stalking OM and OMW. Whatever.

I vote to do it. What do you have to lose at this point?

Mel has a recommended letter over on NSX thread I think. Not hard to find. It is designed for facebook. Alter to fix circumstances. It was posted today.

Larry

Ok, here it is. Alter for gender differences;

Here is a sample letter:

Dear friends of Skankyhola,

It grieves me to write this letter but I believe all of her friends should be aware that Skanky is having an affair with my husband, Joe. We have been married for 5 years and have a 4 year old and another baby on the way. I am now 5 months pregnant with our 2nd child. They have been having this affair since October according to the evidence.

I would be happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks.

I would ask that you use your influence with Skanky to persuade her to leave my husband alone. You should also watch your own husbands around her because she is no friend to marriage.

I would appreciate it if someone would notify her parents and ask them to call me at xxx-www-xxxx.
Thank you, BW

It was in the KKlost thread.

Larry

TE- You can also take a look in my thread, Want New Start-She Doesn't to see how my exposure went. I also got a great starter letter there and posted my actual FB letter in my thread for feedback.

I would paste the link, but I'm still not that savvy on the boards. My thread may be worth a look anyway as I think our situations are pretty similar.

Well, met with lawyer. Paid retainer. It is a sad day. I can't believe this is happening. My poor little guys.

I want to do this as amicably (least expensive) as possible. They're going to draw up some documents that I can take my wife through. Hopefully within the next week or two all the paperwork will be agreed upon and we can file for D.

Or maybe this will be the wake up call that rattles my wife back into the real world... NAH!

Doubt I'll expose on FB to OM's friends. Maybe I should do it just to spite him, but as far as doing it to save my marriage, I just don't think I care enough anymore..

Half mule exposure works half mule.

Maybe part of me only wants it to work half mule. Half of me just wants out. Why should WW be the only one to experience new found love? It's exciting. It's fun.

Staying together just seems like so much work. I'm tired and depressed.

I'm still young. Maybe it would just be better to do this now than 10 years from now when I have less hair and more wrinkles.

Your decision is your own, but you should consider your kids as well. At least for me I want to make sure I did EVERYTHING within my power to keep the family together.

Thank being said, I cannot continue on with a wayward who refusese to end the A. I have a time limit, but I'm not quite there yet.

Divorce is an option, but it will still be there for you down the road. Looks like you started Plan A in JAN.

Plan A in Jan.

More 180 now. Can't afford to move out and Plan B.

Feel like WW is just one of those people who has to hit rock bottom before she wakes up and realizes the damage she's done.

You can lead a horse to water...

Trust me, I know the feeling. I am starting to move towards a 180 as well.

Even though I am moving forward with a lawyer, part of me is hoping this wakes my wife up. It's still possible to save this marriage. But she's going to have to do a lot to make up for this mess. And the very first thing is NC for life.

Understand and agree!

TE,
One thing I don't read about is you "trying" is meeting her ENs. I read your entire thread and never did anything come up about what her ENs are and which ones you were missing.

I am also FBH so please don't think that I am sending you in to the fight because I want you see you in more pain. But if you can summon any strength for this your family and children and yes your WW need you right now. As the very famous Bob Pure has said on here this stuff is a Hero's gig and mostly it is thankless. But there is no better righteousness than to say you gave her and your family everything you could. And, if your strength has runout and you cannot be that hero anymore, thats ok too. Take care of self first, children. Let consequences fall on WW as they will anyway.

You are the only lighthouse in this storm. She is lost at sea without a rudder. Only you can guide her home. Lighthouses must withstand terrible storms but there are sunny days coming. Keep lighting up.

Steve Harley likened plan A to throwing rocks in a stream. For a long time you see no results as the rocks sink to the bottom. Finally one day the pile below the surface (love bank deposits) gets big enough to pierce the surface.

I would call on you to love her despite all this, love her no matter the results, love her with no expectations. I'm not saying you have to be Mr. Doormat but treat her like the great person she was whenever you can and make deposits in her love bank as much as you can. In a sophisticated way you can Plan A your spouse and Plan B your wayward wife when she is acting out.

Keep bringing your own truth to the table. "Your continued contact with OM is destroying our family and it feels like a knife in my stomach. Our children will never be the same." This is you sharing with her without LBing.

Don't try to teach or educate or convince her. As a trained salesman I can 99% tell you that nobody ever bought anything because they were convinced too. But you can ASK her like, "Spouse, if there was a program out there that could help us not just recover our marriage but to make it GREAT would you look at it? If she seems open at all ask her to read SAA book by Dr. Harley. It really helped my WW see that her A was very typical and caused her to realize that "soulmates" was a myth.

Let her know that you don't want your old marriage back, you want a better marriage with the help of MBers and the goal of becoming ONE.

See if she will take anti depressants. This helped my wife see clearly for the first time in months.

Don't attack her movie project. That will backfire. But instead say "Spouse I want to help you fulfill your dreams but I cannot support anything that involves OM. What other ideas can we come up with for you?"

Send OM an email point blank that says "I will do anything under the sun to save my marriage and family. Leave her alone." Tell everyone else too.

Exposure serves more than one purpose. Keep exposing anytime you learn of contact. For me exposure helped marshall forces beyond my realm. People I hardly knew would call me with support. I exposed to one of my clients. From then on she was a great supporter which I desperately needed.

Share your pain, hurt, and anger stuff with her nicely. Don't discuss affair. You want to create conditions of love by depositing in her love bank while avoiding withdrawals.

Keep working YOUR plan. Be a man with a plan. Dr. Harleys plan. I know how disempowering this feels because she is the one choosing to leave so get a plan and do it.

You must believe in your cause with more than everything you have. The only way I could achieve that was with God's help and the great people here on MBers.

{{{{{{TE}}}}}}} Hugs to you and your little ones. I shed a tear for them. Ditto for my highschool friends girls too. His spouse just can't honor her vows to love and cherish til death...Another casulty. (sniff)

Its just so culturally abhorrent how we can raise generation after generation of selfishness. Dr. Dobson where are you?

I think the main EN I was missing was Admiration. I've read some of OM's emails. They are filled with twisted admiration about how strong she is being through all this and how wonderful of a person she is.

I'm finding it very hard to admire her for what she has done and what she continues to do. So yeah, meeting that EN is tough right now. I simply don't feel that her lying and cheating is either strong or wonderful. He is simply bullsh*tting her and she is eating it up. It makes me sick.

I'm just not sure I believe in this cause anymore.

Big Picture, thank you very much for your post.

After reading it, it became clear to me that Admiration was indeed the EN I was not meeting for WW. Somehow it just never clicked with me how important that is to her. But now I get it.

So I just mustered up some strength and went upstairs and told her that she was the most amazing woman I ever met. I told her I thought she realized how wonderful I thought she was, and that reminding her of this was something that I would work on.

I also told her that I loved her, even through all this. And that I love the boys so much and that I don't want to lose them.

She said, "I know. I was scared last night when you told me about the lawyer and divorce and maybe we should put the brakes on that."

As I left the room, she had tears in her eyes and I could tell what I said really resonated with her.

This crazy roller coaster has more twists and turns...

TE,

CONGRATULATIONS. You just made your first love bank deposit! Now keep recognizing how low her balance is and do it again! POUR on the "meeting of emotional needs". Don't only meet one need, study them all and keep pouring it into her. Daily, hourly, give her little gifts, reminders of your love and life together, little notes of admiration. Search internet for romatic gestures and ideas. Court her like you did years ago. Woo her. Have fun with her. Talk intimately with her about her dreams hopes desires needs. Suggest fun dates together but don't expect anything.

I used to post a note by the coffee machine everyday. My FWW said that she was 80% won-over back to our marriage just from my ACT OF SERVICE (or domestic support in Harley speak) to make her coffee everyday (I don't drink it) despite the daily pain I was in and her fogspeak.

Your self confidence and certainty are the best things you can have to become attractive to her again. Stand tall and think about how proud you are of yourself that you can weather this storm.

Dr. Harley has 10 EN's where as Gary Chapman labels just 5 in his book 5 Languages of Love. They are physical touch, quality time, acts of service, words of affirmation, and gifts. Get it quick and read it tonight. Its simple its easy. When you become armed with the knowledge in Dr. Harley's His Needs Her Needs and Gary Chapmans 5 Languages of Love you will see that getting your ww to fall back in love with you is almost scientific. Meet her needs, don't love bust, don't expect anything back.

She is not happy about her choices either and she knows it deep down and you saw that in her tears yesterday. The fog is just a coping mechanism used to justify her actions within herself. The fog allows her to deny reality and the consequences of her actions. You keep bringing realilty back to the table by sharing your gut wrenching revelations. Like "Spouse, I know I have failed at ______. How would it make you feel if I instead had done x y and z for you?" You need to reach through the fog with your laser beam lighthouse to the real wife that is hiding in there by connecting with her feelings. In women, feelings are everything. She is sick and you need to love her back to health with loving detachment. How?

Remember the phrase if you love something set it free. That is where you must be. You love her, she is free to do whatever she wants, but you will continue to love her without reservation through thick and thin just like your vows described. Keep on loving. Please note that these actions do not in any way keep you from working your plan on your timetables. Play offense and defense at the same time.

Let her know you do NOT want your old marriage back either, the marriage where you failed to meet her needs and she failed to meet your and you both failed at POJA. Instead you want a NEW marriage based new goals and new expert relationship knowledge.

Don't give this up because things look dark. Your wife is available to you daily and at certain times will be recepetive to your efforts. Make sure you do it without any expectations. Love her like the child of God that was sent to you to be your wife forever. Care for her well being despite all the bullcrap she is dishing out. Thats why men were NOT given the emotional capacity that women have. So we can stand up in the face of turmoil and be the rock, the lighthouse. Get off her rollercoaster. Simply do not buy that ticket.

TE,
Whether we like it or not or realized it or not when we got married (99% of us don't), upon taking the marriage vows we signed up to make our lives FOR our spouses. Honoring your vows to love and cherish her through thick and thin IS your life's work. Nothing else matters as much, not money, not dreams that go unfulfilled, not your kids, not your career. HER and your marriage. That is your singular purpose- to love her and forgive her first and foremost.

You can do this, we can help.

Wow! Big Picture, you certainly have a lot of spunk. Thank you for your insight, advice and energy. I love the lighthouse analogy.

WW and I have been joking via email quite a bit today, something we haven't done in several weeks. Tomorrow we meet with our MC again who is very smart and very pro-marriage. Not to mention, very expensive.

I feel like I meet her EN for financial and domestic support. The biggest thing I lack is telling her how much I admire her. I guess I just always presumed she understood my feelings. But, that's definitely where I went wrong. I'm sure of it now.

Went to MC session this morning. WW is still lying a bit about contacting OM. She says she reached out but he never wrote back, which I know is a lie.

But I do believe OM has essentially washed his hands of the sitch and for the most part does not write WW anymore.

WW says that she spoke to a lawyer last week and was scared about the child custody situation. WW says she does not want the boys to miss out on being with a full-time dad.

Seems like we could make this work, only I am still very angry and hurt. I have no trust in WW anymore. And there's also a lot of other women out there and I know that is selfish, but...

TE,

When are you going to tell her that NC is a requirement and that you KNOW she is lying to you? If you don't you are simply going to die a death by a thousand cuts.

JL

JL,

I've told her NC is a requirement. Many times. Our MC has also told her that. In fact we both told her that just this morning.

She's starting to get the picture, especially now that OM isn't returning her emails. Earlier this week our marriage was in a very dark place. Now it looks like there is once again hope.

We just gave each other a very emotional hug before going off to our separate rooms.

TE,
Be prepared for her bad attitude and general lack of enthusiasm for anthing to do with you and marriage and family. She is coming down from a huge high in the A. And she is looking at her marriage's past failures (regardless of who's fault) as the only future she can see.

Again please remember to not LBust. Make deposits whenever and however she will let you and emphasize by ASKING "If there is a proven program out there that can help us have a GREAT marriage, would you look at it with me?" If she is even mildly interested then begin very simply (don't bombard her) with something from Dr Harley like the questionnaires or a book HNHN or SAA or share the concept of love banks or ? Anything that gets her on board. You want a plan to fall in love remember. If you have nagging questions about the A then reserve a place and time with a time limit for that discussion.

You need to make yourself and house & home a safe place for her to land. If she is willing, talk with her about her feelings and thoughts but if she shares disgusting stuff like how much she misses OM (boo hoo) try to be nonplussed, calm, cool, thank her for sharing. Her ability to be open and honest will directly affect your ability to converse with her which for most women is a major love bank deposit. Talking releases good brain chemicals in women. Thats why when women get into a group they do nothing but talk talk talk. My wifes group didn't even play Bunco last time. VS men when they get together they watch the game, not much talking.

We went on a day trip this past Saturday, and she was downright intolerable. Cranky, irritable, tired. I kept asking myself, "why do I want to be with this person?" I'm still not sure that I do. Recovery just seems so impossible. I'm so angry. So disappointed. And I just have no faith in my WW whatsoever.

But I love my sons so much...

My WW called around noon, and we had a very pleasant conversation. She seemed so nice and happy�Just like old times. She said she saw my younger son and I asleep this morning in the bed downstairs and we looked "so cute."

For a moment there it seemed like the fog lifted. Maybe...

TE,

When she is "intolerable" tell her so.

W "if you are going to behave in this manner I will not accept it. Stop it now. If you have nothing good to say, say nothing." And then walk away from her.

If you cannot tolerate it, then don't. It is called protecting YOUR boundaries.

JL

Unfortunately our relationship is turning into a brother/sister or roommate type relationship.

We live together. Help each other out around the house. Watch TV and movies together. Take care of the kids together.

But there is very little physical contact. I'm afraid that if we ever do have sex again it's going to be a huge deal.

Our MC suggests we should have sex as soon as possible.

My lawyer suggests we don't because that would be seen as an act of forgiveness and ruin my case against paying alimony if we divorce.

I doubt my WW wants to have sex anyway.

Any advice?

TE,
Patience, thats all I can recommend right now other than

VERIFY NO CONTACT, KEEP SNOOPING.

Has she written a NC letter with your approval and sent it?

We talked last night. Told her the bar was high for reconciliation. And that the first step was a NC letter. She still hasn't decided to recommit to the marriage. Once she does, I will have her write that letter.

She also wants to finish the film project with her cousin. WW gets a lot of pressure from this woman about finishing this project that stars the OM. It could take months, maybe even years to finish. I told her I think she needs to drop the project as part of NC.

I said that if she thinks the project is more important than our marriage then she should work on it and we can divorce. WW said the project is not more important than our marriage.

This morning WW approached me and gave me a hug and kiss as I left for work.

TE,
Be sure to stay strong right now with your conditions. If she is still waywardly contacting OM then you might be better off going to plan B. Why? Because it seems she has glimpsed the repercussions of her actions and choices. Especially since she agrees the film is not worth her marriage. This is always the point in time when a BS who desperately needs some of his EN's met starts to compromise on the conditions of recovery. I did and it cost me a false recovery period or two. We may sound draconian but too many of us have done it to not warn you of it.

BP,

Can't go to plan B as that would require moving out and I simply cannot afford to do that.

But you are right and I will not compromise on my conditions for recovery. I am prepared to divorce her at this point if she doesn't feel she can meet my conditions.

"I said that if she thinks the project is more important than our marriage then she should work on it and we can divorce. WW said the project is not more important than our marriage."

Stick to your guns. NC.

My conditions for recovery:

1. Write a NC letter that I approve.
2. End all contact with OM for life.
3. End work on project that involves OM.
4. Distance herself from her cousin.

Please let me know if these seem reasonable to everyone here and whether or not I should add anything. I know that ending work on the project is going to be difficult for her. Also, distancing herself from her cousin/best friend will be tough as they are like sisters.

But I'm not the one who created this mess and implicated her cousin and this project. I feel like WW is going to have to meet conditions 3 and 4 to clean up this mess.

sounds good

5. Disclose all email passwords

WW and I talked to a real estate agent tonight about a short sale on our house.

Then we talked about our future. I gave her until Friday to recommit to M. It appears she has been in NC for just over 2 weeks now. And I am hoping she remains that way while we decide to reconcile or divorce. I think she understands the gravity of the situation and will not contact OM.

When I say things like, "What about the boys? They need a full-time dad." She responds, "People get divorced all the time. They'll be all right."

Uggggh.

If that's the case, then you might be rushing things. It will take a bit longer than "two weeks" after NC before the fog clears and you can discuss things on a rational basis with your (F?)WW.

I know. But I'm just so worn out. I'm tired of waiting. I'm tired of getting my hopes up only to have them dashed. I'm tired of not having my needs met.

Maybe she's just the type that has to hit rock bottom.

I'm afraid that two weeks is not enough time and you're setting yourself up to have your hopes dashed again. Focus on improving yourself and working through Plan A. In a few more weeks, when more fog has lifted, you'll be able to hold a rational conversation with her.

Okay. I'll hold tight for a few more weeks. But this limbo really is tough. Especially when I see that she is applying for jobs in NY and sends emails to her friends about how she is hopefully moving to NY in a few months with the kids once school lets out.

How far away is NY? Same state? Do you have a separation agreement?

Larry

NY is 800 miles away. I do not have a separation agreement. But I have had an initial consultation and have paid the retainer.

I am supposed to schedule a follow up appt with the lawyer this week to work on the separation agreement, but I was thinking of waiting to see if WW would agree to write a NC letter.

I believe Larry was asking you so you would think about protecting your kids from being taken far away from you. You should have something that says that your WW wouldn't be able to leave your area with your kids.

Okay. I just hate paying those bloodsucking lawyers.

It would cost a LOT more if you don't do it before hand and then have to fight to get them home. I don't just mean money either.

Life is what it is.

You need to get your butt online and start reading custody law in your state. There are ALWAYS sites where that is explained.

You don't want to wake up one morning with your yaha in your hand and your kids 800 miles away. Right?

Larry

I know. But I'm quite certain she won't take them anywhere until school is out in May. So I have a little time.

That's the thing. I feel like she thinks she's gonna just be free to go after school lets out. And she's applying for teaching jobs in NY that would start in September. This is her goal: to take the kids and move up their and start teaching in September.

As Pep has always told me, "isn't it good to know your enemies plans ahead of time? This way you can PLAN." Okay maybe that wasn't a quote, but the sentiment is the same.

Well, she is wayward. But she has stated on several occasions that she's not going to run away with the kids.

Right now, the sitch I'm facing is that OM seems to not be communicating with her and she is having mad withdrawals.

She went a few weeks in February with NC. Then she wrote him when one of her cousins got really sick. And he wrote back.

Then her email to him said , "You've been my best friend, lover and kindred spirit these last two years and that is why I still miss you." This was on Feb. 24 and I do not believe they have been in contact since.

I don't understand. Do you believe that she is trying to move to NY, or she WON'T leave with the kids? Which one is it?

I suppose her wayward ideal would be to get a job offer, sell the house and take the kids to NY so she could start work in September.

And then she would want me to relocate with my job to NY so that I wouldn't be too far away from the kids.

And is this part of YOUR plan? What are you willing to do? Would you move 800 miles away just because she wanted to move.

My plan would be to keep our family together. I would move back to NY to do that.

The problem for me is finding a job in NY in this economy. I could possibly transfer with my company, but that could be risky because we've had a bunch of layoffs over these past few years.

If you were to follow MB concepts and did start to recover your M this would have to be a choice that is made using POJA. There would have to be an ENTHUSIASTIC Agreement between BOTH of you. If there isn't a POJA, it can lead to resentment. That would be a bad thing.

I was just thinking of it in a way where you would protect yourself so you wouldn't have to worry about the decisions you make as being affected by fear of what WW might do.

I know. It's confusing. I spend half of my day just trying to figure out what she could be planning. She is very confused and seeing things with very rose-colored glasses.

We both really love NY. So I would be happy to move up there. But we have a home with an upside down mortgage here. And my job is here.

How do I keep pushing for a NC letter without her feeling like I'm pressuring her into it?

Right now she is in NC, but I think that is not her doing. I believe OM went to NC because I exposed to his parents.

TE

You gave her until Friday to recommit to M. Which date was that? Did it go by already without her commitment? My point is unless you are ready to enforce your chosen consequences do not make demands.

Has she written NC letter? Tell her what I told my ww- "If OM really loves you he will wait for you to figure out if you can be happy in your marriage." This just buys time but precious time. Give her a sample NC letter but tell her you expect to approve anything she sends to him. When he gets the NC letter expect him to try to contact her again and try to prepare her for that and develop a plan to deal with it.

Thinking back my WW was soooooooooooooooo pathetic around the end of the A. Her- "I just need to write him one more email to tell him blah blah blah." After awhile I just became numb to it. Absolutely pathetic.

But don't stop with plan A, making deposits and speaking her love language. That is your offense. Your defense is no LBing, bring truth and boundaries without emotional drama, and have TONS of self confidence! WIN! For her, for your marriage and your children.

I told her that we need to decide soon. She said maybe we should just pick a date. And I said okay.

Later that night she said, how about Friday 3/19? I said okay.

The next day after that discussion, I told her that I thought this Friday was too soon, that she has only been in No Contact for a few weeks and she is still in withdrawals so we should wait to make any final decisions until the withdrawals have subsided.

She has not yet agreed to write a NC letter.

NEVER suggest to your WW that if OM really loves her he will wait to see if her M works out!!!!!!! That plants the seed that A. He is waiting for her and B. He actually loved her.

God's Blessings,

Say

What does she need to do to ensure you that she is committed to the marriage?

To me words are just words, they can be lies or the truth, I just don't know. On the other hand, actions speak much louder than words. What is it that you are looking for? I would like to hear it defined.

What happens if she does not meet your list of conditions that show she is working toward for the marriage? Are these consequences vengence driven, or are they natural occurences that just should happen, you just don't protect her from these consequences anymore? Like she gets picked up for drunk driving and put in jail. Instead of bailing her out you say, "This is something you have to deal with."

You make it a boundary.
A boundary means you take control of what happens to you.
There is no force.
There is clarity as to what behaviors are acceptable to you.

"I will not tolerate XYZ in my life."

If "XYZ" happens, YOU make a change.
You don't ask for the same thing over and over again.

Your wife is free to chose XYZ, and lose you.

YOU: "I require you write a NC letter today and I put it in the mail myself.
If this is not done by (date) you will have have told me you no longer want this marriage, and I will take appropriate action.
The choice is yours.
NC letter means we try to work this out.
No NC letter means you no longer want this marriage."

If WW does not write NC letter, you take action. You do NOT have a discussion.

Don't do this if you are too afraid to back up your own words.
You can chose to live with a permanently wayward wife, it's up to you.

First, I would like her to end the affair once and for all.

OM seems to have ended the affair since I exposed to his parents. But WW keeps trying to entice him into conversation via email.

An NC letter. Yes. That would be a nice place to start.

Then after the withdrawals subside, I'd like to discuss with her where we go from here.

Put me on the record...

THIS (above) is a really dumb remark.

Pressure to do the right thing is is GOOD.

It's called

Motivation !

Okay, but I keep reading about how I'm supposed to stand back and stop pressuring and stop talking about the affair...

Are you IN RECOVERY?

Are you in PLAN A?

It depends on YOUR plan.

Not in recovery.

In Plan A.

For how long so far?
For how much longer? (approximate is OK)

It needs to have an end point.

Been in plan A since beginning of Jan. 2010.

That's when I exposed to her parents and his. She of course spoke with him to apologize via email. He lives in London so they've had sex only a few times, so it's mostly an EA.

After that, I think OM stopped writing her. For three or four weeks we seemed to be making progress, sleeping in the same bed and holding each other a little.

But then she wrote him again because a mutual friend of theirs got sick and he wrote her back. That was at the end of Feb.

Since then they have been in No Contact again, at his bequest.

I am getting worn out. And I know it needs to end at some point. We are now sleeping in different rooms again and have good days and bad.

TE,
Keep going with Plan A. 2.5 months is not long enough to build up your love bank balance with her. Patience.

Big Pic & Pep,

You and the others on this site are really giving me the strength to keep going. Thanks.

I gave my WW the date of 4/18 to recommit to M by writing an NC letter. If she does not, we will D.

Right now, I would put my money on D.

TE,

The point of Plan A is to show her that you can be the man of her dreams if she remains in the marriage and dumps OM. She doesn't think you can do it for very long and that you are just making a show of it to get her to give up OM.

That's what it is supposed to do.

What you just did was tell her that you aren't going to be her Mr Dreamboat past 4/18 so she only has until then to respond because after that you are going back to putting yourself first.

Right now, I would not bet against you...

The way it is supposed to work is that you make yourself darned near perfect, let her see how much you are changing to become the man of her dreams and fantasies and how much better you would be to spend her life with as opposed to POSOM.

You do this without Love Busters and just when she is starting to think that maybe you really ARE different than she thought, or at least has been telling herself, you deliver a Plan B letter that tells her that you will have nothing to do with her until OM is gone and she agrees to working to build a MB marriage with you.

Then you shut up, sit down and wait till you figure out if you are even willing to recover if and when she comes back. Then you can decide if you will divorce based on rational decision instead of knee jerk reaction to her hurting you every five seconds.

If you want to win this war, you have to be willing to work at becoming the best TE that TE can be. And you have to tell her that your marriage cannot survive with OM in the picture. You tell her that you are not willing to share her with OM and that OM must be gone...

But you have to do it without making her feel like crap, without DJs or AOs. You DEMAND without being demanding and disrespectful.

You do it for 3 months and see if you can keep going. Then you do it longer if you can but plan for separation. Then you pull the plug on meeting her ENs and go dark and wait...

By giving her a time frame you are saying "I'll let you be a ho until April 18th and then I'll leave you. So tell me, why would she take that as a reason to end it with OM whom she is in love with and commit to turning the whole world upside down and inside out in recovery?

How have you been meeting her top ENs so that she is in love with you?

What Love Busters have you identified that you have been able to overcome and what ones do you still struggle with?

This is how you do Plan A...

Plan "I think I'll alternate between being a doormat and being an [censored]" isn't much of a draw for most women...

I'm outta lumber...

Mark

Thanks Mark for the advice.

I'm trying to be the best I can be. I'm listening better, going to counseling, quit drinking, doing more work around the house, taking the kids to school, making breakfast, telling my wife how much she means to me, working out all the time, taking her out to dinner, getting babysitters, taking her and the kids for walks in the park, taking her to a concert tonight...

I'm trying my best man.

And I'm doing the best I can to be rational and not act on my emotions.

But every time I turn my back, she is on the phone with her enabling friend plotting against me, or emailing the OM.

I'm tired of the lies. I'm tired of the enabling friend. I'm tired of the fog. Maybe she's just too far gone. Maybe she's the type that has to hit rock bottom.

I made her an offer of the life we can have if we reconcile. I told her what my parameters were. If she is not interested in that offer, then she is not interested. If we divorce, we divorce. I'm still young.

If we go through this again in 10 years, I'll have 10 years more wrinkles and 10 years less hair.

you have 2 young kids and you have to save the M for them too. If you did not have kids I would have encouraged you to D and get on with your life. NOt because I do not value a M without kids, but because you had no obligation as a father. That extra obligation requires you to put that extra time in saving the M.
That said, there are limits. It you W shows not effort in the R process after a few month of you trying, then the M can't be saved by your efforts alone. It takes 2. Then a D is appropriate and you will feel that you put all the effort you could and the M did not work. So you wil have no regrets to live with and you can share that with your kids.


blessing

I'm trying. I just can't do it.

Well said, atena. He's not just a husband. He's also a father. Being a father requires self sacrifice, not comfort.

Believe me, Dday was almost 7 months ago. The kids are about the only things keeping me in this M right now.

I believe you. It is hard. 7 months are a long time, but relatively long if you keep in mind recovery.
blessing

TE,

I'm not suggesting that you do Plan A for another 6 or 7 months. To the contrary, I am trying to point out that you are losing your love for her and need to get your ducks in a row for Plan B.

But until Plan B drops you have to avoid doing anything that makes her memory of you to be anything less than of you becoming the man of her dreams. ANY love busters set your cause back.

And Plan B is not for the purpose of leveraging her into returning to the marriage either. It is so that you can stop losing love for her by her constant love busters of continued contact with POSOM and other IB. It will let you start to gain clarity for your life and come to be a whole person in and of yourself so that IF she ever ends the affair and seeks reconciliation you will have enough left in the tank to pursue recovery with her.

But in your case it might also shake things up enough that she will be forced to make a choice since right now she thinks that she can continue with you and still have OM in her life. A well thought out Plan B letter might just get her to realize that life will not continue along the path she has set upon and if she doesn't drop OM then she will no longer have you in her life, even as a friend.

That is why you need to make that lasting impression now, while you have the chance to do it, that you will in fact be the man she can't live without so that when faced with the prospect of losing you she will decide that OM is not her future or at least not the one she wants for herself.

ANY love busters diminish you in her eyes. Your value decreases but not just by a normal amount for the love buster but well beyond that because she will append your love buster with a judgment that she was right all along and you are not capable of sustaining being Mr Wonderful. Mr Status Quo will not be enough to keep her. Mr Way Things Were is not who she wants.

Plan A needs to be short, intense and executed with precision. Then before the affair takes its toll on your emotions you need to have everything in place to jump to Plan B so that you don't drag out the agony of dealing with the pain of the affair beyond what you can tolerate. If you lose your cool and blow the gains made in Plan A before getting into Plan B then you will have wasted the efforts of Plan A entirely since her memories of you will be the negative part instead of how great a person you had become and how indispensable you have become to her life.

Plan A so long that you melt down before Plan B and Plan A is pretty much undone...

SDs, AOs, DJs are all instinctive parts of your Taker's tool box. When they begin to show up it is because your Taker is trying to get you what you need to be happy. It is a sign that your own Love Bank is pretty much overdrawn. When you can no longer control your Taker and your Taker is beginning to control you, you need to be away from her so that you don't hurt her as a parting shot and reduce any possibility of reconciliation to zero.

Mark

Thank you Mark.

Last night, we went to a rock concert. It was really cool.

WW and I got a babysitter around 6:30. I didn't tell her where we were going. We went to this really cool venue in our city for a great show.

There were three bands playing and a couple thousand people watching. WW had a few drinks. We danced. We shared a few touches�arm around waist, her hand on my shoulder a few times, etc. Got home a little after midnight. It was a lot of fun.

Today WW and I did some yard work. The kids played in the yard. Then we all went to my sons first little league game. And then we had a nice dinner.

All in all, it was a nice weekend and I told WW that. She said she had a nice weekend too. I think I did a pretty good job with Plan A.

Tomorrow I go back to work. Once I'm out of her sight, that's usually when the trouble starts. Well, I hope not, but...

We stopped with our MC about two weeks ago because of the cost and because I feel like WW has to recommit to the marriage before we can work on the problems in our marriage that led to the affair.

I am now seeing a counselor on my own, just because I like having someone to talk to. He is an LMFT and very pro-marriage.

Any thoughts on that?

WW's cousin/best friend/enabler just sent WW footage of the film project they shot starring OM last summer.

WW doesn't know, but I watched the footage. WW having a great time with her cousin and all the others, and the OM. In one scene she is running around on a beach in a tiny bikini.

She looks like she is having a blast cheating on me. It's disgusting.

Should I confront her and tell her I saw the footage? I don't want to compromise my spying techniques.

Is there a way to smile and say how great she looks in the bikini, but not to compromise the spying?....like can you somehow catch her watching it, look over her shoulder and say, "Boy you look great! That other man though, it really hurts me seeing you hang all over him like that."

Hmm. She's not going to watch it while I'm home. I could pull it up from her browser history, but it takes a password to play the video. She would definitely question how I got access to it.

I've told her so many times that I don't want her involved in this project anymore, for the fact that it stars the OM! Yet her enabling cousin, continues to push it forward.

Delete It!!!

That thought did cross my mind. They could just upload it again though. It's on YouTube. It would mess with their heads a little though.

Just off the cuff...
If its on YouTube and you can post comments I would suggest EXPOSING on You Tube by way of a comment like "its too bad my wife is having such a great time with another man instead of her husband."

Or maybe something like:

"Great to see my wife having such a fun time cheating on her husband and destroying her family. Our children will be so proud of their mom."

Yeah... I just don't think I've got the nerve to do that. And I'm not sure what it would gain besides making me look psycho.

And really, that wouldn't expose to anyone because it is a private video that needs a password and everyone with the password knows of the affair.

Although it is tempting, it's probably not plan A.

""Great to see my wife having such a fun time cheating on her husband and destroying her family. Our children will be so proud of their mom."

Comment on youtube sounds like a plan.

I wouldn't do anything about the video at this point.

I would file it in my informational pile of knowledge and keep my eyes open for more info and try to plan A like crazy.

Yeah, I know. Take the high road... but at least I can daydream about saying a bunch of vengeful stuff, can't I?

TE,

Now that the most recent piece of hurtful trigger stuff is out of the way...

What are her top 3 ENs? What are her top 5? What are you doing to meet those ENs?

What fun recreational event do you have planned that will allow you to enjoy being together without talking about the relationship instead of just enjoying being in the relationship?

What can you do today to get you through the day being her knight in shining armor without love busting over any aspect of the affair or mentioning how she hurt you?

What I am driving at here is that you need to do things that make her want to be with you rather than things that make her want to get away from you. That is sort of the whole point, yanno?

Read my Managing Memories link in my sig line, even if you have already read it. The way to stop the emotional rollercoaster is to start thinking about something more pleasant and enjoyable whenever something negative comes up. You actually have over a full minute to recognize the negative and actively change what you are thinking about, but you have to know what you will think about instead so you don't go down the affair road all the time because that road always leads to memories and feelings of the affair.

The video, which you just saw and which the enabling friend sent is absolutely new to you...

But it is actually old news. You saw it yesterday but it didn't happen yesterday.

The friend probably has no clue she is enabling. She's as oblivious to your pain as someone who doesn't know you exist. She didn't send the video to set you off and cause you to have a horrible day. She didn't even know you would see it. She sent it because she doesn't know any better.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

What are your Plan A steps for today?

You can't just linger longer so you have to maximize your presentation. Think selling to a reluctant customer with a room full of people waiting. Pitch>CLOSE. If no agreement takes place Pitch>CLOSE. Overcome objection>pitch>CLOSE. Always be closing. Closing is asking for the sale.

You need to sell yourself first...

Mark

Mark, awesome stuff. Thank you yet again.

Another okay day. WW and I talked on the phone a couple times during the course of the day.

When I came home from work we had some good conversation. This is one of her top ENs.

Put the kids down to bed. Had dinner together. Watched a little tube and had some more conversation.

Not a bad night. Although there was no kiss goodnight.

I just get the feeling she�s going along with the Plan A stuff, but is being standoffish because she doesn�t want to hurt me anymore.

I think she is being pleasant in return to my Plan A, just so that we can have an amicable divorce in the next few months.

Again though, NC still in place. And some conversation was initiated on her part.

Why do you think she wants to D? Has she made any moves in that direction since NC? Because I doubt that she will D without OM in the wings. (Or did I miss a post, which is entirely likely, and if so I apologize )

Well, in her mind OM may still be in the wings. I believe they are in NC, but that seems to be his doing. For all I know, he could have said he didn't want to be involved with her until she gets a D.

That said, the fog does seem to be lifting a bit, but she is still giving me very little physical affection.

She has met with a lawyer, but got freaked out when they talked about child custody.

She definitely will have a hard time giving up her enabling friend which is one of my requirements for reconciliation.

So I honestly just can't gauge what she wants to do and I'm not sure she knows yet.

Another decent day and night. NC still in place. And progress seems to be being made.

I cam home early from work so I could take the kids for a while and give WW a break.

I turned off the TV tonight before we got started watching anything just to get more UA time.

I did a lot of domestic work�dishes, laundry, cleaning up�and WW thanked me for that tonight when she kissed me goodnight.

I would say it was a successful day in Plan A. The importance of NC really cannot be overestimated.

A day closer to the end...

No backwards movement. Maybe a little forward.

Little victories that add up over time.

Mark

More of the same. Another decent day of Plan A. No LBs. Slow and steady.

I hope everything goes well my husband had an affair with my sister. About a year ago and I just found out a month ago and I found this sight immediately. I think it has helped I ordered the book surviving an affair we talk we touch I understand your pain because sometime I can't feel anything don't forget I just found out I don't know how long you and your wife have been working it out but I think it can happen. I thought my marriage was perfect I didn't know what went wrong, he says we stopped giving each other affection. That's it. So I'm going to incourage it. Take care. Try that's all you can do and it just might make you and your wife have a better marriage and perception of each others needs.

I told my husband I get it that they was playing around got excited but at the point of him asking her if she wanted to do the dead was he thinking? Is it possible he doesn't remember or just doesn't want to tell me I think that this is something important for me to know what exactly was he thinking? He says he wasn't thinking anything but I'm not a young stupid girl and I told him he was thinking something to forget he was married. What do you think?

My moms 70th b-day party is coming up and it's a 10 hour drive away. I am definitely attending and wanted WW and kids to go too.

WW does not want to go.

I really want the kids to go to see my side of the family.

WW is fine with me driving all that way with the kids. I think the ride is going to be tough being the only adult in the car.

WW has also decided she wants to go to NY for a job interview while the boys and I are on our road trip. She says she is going to stay at her brothers, which she probably is.

We are really pressed for money and her trip is probably going to run at least 500-600 dollars.

How do I tell her I don't want her to go to NY without LB-ing?

Does she understand that accepting this job requires her to leave the kids behind unless you agree to allow them to leave? She can't just take them.....she would be forced to return them by a judge.

I don't think she really believes she will get the job or even take it if she does. She says she just needs a few days away from the kids to think.

Had another talk with WW last night. She still won't recommit to the marriage. Doesn't see how we can ever get past this.

Problem with my plan A is that no matter how great I make our home, she still doesn't want to live in this part of the country. She wants to move back to NY where her family is.

She has a tendency to run away from life's problems.

WW's parents are in town tonight for the week. WW and I will be sharing the same bed for the first time in over a month.

TE- Are you forcing the relationship talk or is she bringing it up? Just curious.

Good luck sharing the bed again!

I brought it up. I usually don't but like you... I'm sick of limbo.

I'm just ready for it to be one way or the other. I could go either way. I just want to be able to make plans for the future and right now I feel like I can't plan anything.

I was asking because I suspected that. As BSs, we want some results and we want them NOW. From everything I've read, it just doesn't happen that way. I have also read repeatedly that we are NOT to bring up relationship talk ourselves, but to engage honestly and without LBs if WS does.

I also know just how frustrating it is but constant relationship talk can also be a LB. I know mine is. What was recommended to me was to not speak so much if we do discuss it. Just listen and listen some more. It has helped me to literally bite my tongue.

Just a thought.

WW never brings up relationship talk.

And I know it's a LB with her, but every couple weeks or so I feel like I have to say something to judge whether there's any progress being made.

I'll do better though and not press the issue anymore.

BTW, we have been hugging a bit. And the fog seems to lift more the further we get from her last contact.

Hugging is great. Keep it up.

Also remember the "no expectations" part of Plan A. It is hard for me as well, but I'm learning.

Plan A really is a learning process. I feel like I keep making mistakes: expectations, initiating talk about our future, LBs, letting my emotions get the best of me, making knee-jerk reactions to her behavior.

It's hard to be the lighthouse...

TE- Plan A is hard. Very hard. We do the best we can and strive to improve. I don't think anyone has done it perfectly. I know I haven't. I also know I have made many mistakes.

Also remember that Plan A is to help you change some of your behavior too, such as eliminating LBs. When we commit LBs, it's like turning off the light bulb in our lighthouses. One bad action can wipe out the hard work of 10 previous positive actions.

I think we need to show consistencey above all else. She needs to see continued, consistent positive behavior to feel safe in remaining married to you.

I do know it is etremely hard to do as I have been trying for some time as well, with little to no sign of change from my WW. I have a huge struggle dealing with the 'no expectations' part. But in working on it, I am becoming a more patient human being. I am becoming a better man regardless of my WWs reaction.

So are you.

Thanks Limbo.

Actually for a while I really expected some SF. Now that I've spoken to a lawyer, I'm glad she denied me.

In our state, SF after Dday is an act of forgiveness. I would then have to pay alimony if we D.

Since we have not had SF, I would not have to pay alimony because of her adultery.

Pretty good incentive for "no expectations."

Hmmmm. How do the courts know if there has been no SF? I would think that anyone dishonest enough to committ adultery would have no problem lying about SF to collect alimony. Our legal system never ceases to amaze me.

God's Blessings,

Say

Good question. I guess they'd just scare her by making her swear under oath with penalty of perjury.

And it has to be actual penetration, too. Nothing else counts!

SOL and TE,

Great discussion of the "no expectations" side of plan A. I was falling into this trap myself. SOL is very right with not forcing discussions of the relationship, but it is very difficult to refrain from.

This discussion helped me a lot. Thanks.

In fact, I've always been kind of hoping for some hysterical bonding...

In-laws are in town and I'm back sleeping in my bed with WW. So far, it's been pretty okay. She's cuddled up to me a little, and I have held her a bit. We seem to be getting along fine, too.

Only thing is, for these past few days she has not called me at all during the course of the day.

Usually she calls me to pick something up or ask when I'm coming home or to print something out or something. These last two days... radio silence.

Man, waywards are hard to read.

Had an okay Easter weekend with WW, kids and in-laws. WW and I went out to dinner on Friday, but it was okay at best. Seems like the only time we enjoyed talking to each other was when we were talking about the kids.

Saturday, we all went to the theatre and saw a really funny play.

Easter, we went to mass and then to a neighbors for an egg hunt and then back home for a nice dinner. It was all okay, but I am not getting any affection from WW whatsoever. I have given her a few kisses and pecks on the cheeks but they haven't been returned.

I also checked our wireless website and she has been on the phone each day for at least 10-20 minutes with her enabling friend. No real surprise there. But she still appears to be in NC.

Next weekend coming up is huge. It is my mother's 70th b-day. I am taking the kids on a 5-day road trip to see my entire family. So far, WW does not want to join us.

So talk more about the kids...

Oh, yeah. Smartypants.

I've skipped a few posts, but have a couple of questions - 1) Have you talked to WW about the enabling friend? 2) Would the friend act as a go-between for the WW and OM, "enabling" contact that you cannot formally track?

[My own situation colors my perception of what I read in other sitches.]

I have talked to WW about enabling friend many times. So far, WW has not limited contact with Enabler at all. I was going to bring it up with her today, but figured I'd just not bring any A stuff up today because we had a pretty good day.

I don't believe Enabler is acting as a conduit between OM and WW. It's possible though and I wouldn't put it past Enabler. Unfortunately, Enabler really has become no friend of our marriage.

Maybe in time WW will see enabler the same way.

In-Laws leave today. Nice visit for a week. I don't know if they talked any sense into WW while they were here. But they really love me and they are very angry and disappointed at WW for what she's done.

Okay, so right after WW dropped her parents off at the airport, she went home and contacted Enabler. She also rewatched the footage to the video they shot starring the OM.

Then WW wrote an email to another friend of hers in NYC about coming up there this weekend while the kids and I go to my mother's.

Her friend in NYC wrote, "I've got someone I want to set you up with."

WW wrote that she's not quite ready to be set up with anyone yet. But she'd love to hang out.

And, oh yeah, tickets to NY are running about $400 right now, and guess who pays the credit card bill she intends to put it on...

Cut off the funds. If it's a joint credit card, cancel it. If she wants to go to NY, she can go to the local college town and earn money by donating plasma.

But won't cutting off her funds be seen as a LB?

TE- Re-Read Pep's carrot and stick.

Do not finance or support the affair in any way. I struggled with this myself and decided to cancel all credit cards.

It made Pinky angry, but it was the right thing to do.

Cut them. If she wants to go to NY, let her figure out how to pay for it.

Yep, put me square in the "cut off the funds" category.

It's the first thought that came to my mind as I read this.

There is no --I repeat NO-- way you should be funding her infidelity.

Thank you guys.

TE- Obviously this action won't be received well, but what you won't be able to see is the amount of respect your WW will have. She won't see it initially either, but she will at least see that you are standing up to her adulterous behaviour and at least sub-consciously, she will respect you for that.

Well, so far she has not booked the flight. She is a conflict avoider and knows I'm going to complain about the price, so right now she is avoiding talking to me about it. Plus, as of now, she has nowhere to stay in NY.

I'd like to see her make the right decision on her own before I cut her off financially.

I'm really hardcore carrot Play A-ing right now. We'll see what happens...

You need to do carrot AND stick plan A. It doesn't work with all carrot.

And removing the financial aspects of the A isn't an LB. Think of it more like an AB(Affair BUSTER).

As far as letting he make the "right" decision.....hate to break it to you but she already didn't. She WON'T. All you will do is watch her make bad decision after bad decision and bring you down with her. Commit to YOUR plan.

The affair is already busted up. I did that through exposure to his parents. WW and OM are not communicating since late February.

I will cut off the funds. But I want to see how she handles the next few days first.

"And, oh yeah, tickets to NY are running about $400 right now, and guess who pays the credit card bill she intends to put it on..."

Never finance an affair. Cut off these credit cards.

you should never be making decisions to do the right thing based on fear about what she will do.

Figure that she will pitch the biggest hissy fit she's capable of and file for divorce, and then do the right thing anyway.

If she makes a move to purchase tickets to NY, I will shut down her finances.

Right now she does not have a place to stay in NY and I have been carrot Plan A-ing quite well, there is a chance SHE will do the right thing and come with the kids and I to my mother's.

Are you saying you will shut down the finances AFTER she buys a ticket?

I don't clearly understand what you intend to do.

TryingEverything,

I agree with Pep. Why on earth haven't you cancelled the credit cards already? You certainly don't want her to buy the ticket before you cancel. Cancel them NOW. Cancel them not only to prevent further adulterous activites but also to save yourself $400!!! or more!!!!!!!!!

I agree. If you are trying to avoid the conflict, simply tell her that you are doing it for financial reasons and leave it at that.

She doesn't need to know if you open a new card with only your name.

I have canceled all but one credit card. WW uses it for food for the kids and such. She has not used it for anything affair related.

Wouldn't a judge in a D have a problem with me cutting off all WW's funds?

Should I give her a stipend for groceries each week of cash instead? Say like $200? More? Less?

Why don't you buy food for the kids and such?

That is basically what I do. I transfer money into her checking from my checking, usually about 200 at a time. I can see her trasnactions online so I can make sure it is being used for food/clothes.

Unless, she is getting "cash back" while using a "debit" card.
If I wanted to hide cash withdrawls ... I'd go to the grocery store. Purchase $20 of groceries, and ask for $60-80 in "cash back".

Or, purchase $80 in groceries, and ask for $20 in "cash back".

No, those aren't basically the same. You are paying for her to buy the food. I am suggesting that you buy the food.

And that will keep any possibility of 'working the system' to a minimum. (As Pep explained.)

Great point Pep.

To be honest though, I really don't have that big of an issue with 20 bucks of 'walking around' money for fast food or whatever. Any more than that and she can fund herself from her part time job. I check her account every other day to verify. So far no ATMs and any grocery purchases seemed to match the amount of food in the house.

I blocked my WW from our funds to protect the family and our money- not to try to control her every move (although WW thinks that is the reason) while she is still wayward.

I still need to provide for her and that is what I do. That is where it stops too- just food and shelter. I have closed all our credit cards and emptied all joint bank accounts. She was pi$$ed, but I did it for me and the boys.

Markos- I meant what TE was suggesting is basically the same as what I do. I didn't mean that you suggesting he do the shoppin was what I was doing. Although, I also do the grocery shopping from time to time. It's just that in my case, I am not home as much as she is so she still does a lot of it.

Good points all. Thank you again. This stuff really helps as I'm still trying to figure it all out.

As expected WW called me at work asking if she could purchase a flight to NY. Now it seems her enabling friend is going to drive down to NY from Massachusetts and they are going to have a wild and crazy weekend.

I told her I would not pay for any such trip. And I told her she needed to stop communicating with Enabler. I also told her that I thought she should come with the kids and I to my mother's b-day party as it will be a big event in my family.

At the end of the conversation she still seemed like she was fogged out. Then when I got home from the office I asked her what she was going to do. She said, "I don't know."

I then asked her, "Do you want to go to war with me?"

She said, "No."

We actually then hugged and she's been super nice to me ever since.

This morning we shared an really great hug.

Then Enabler called. WW did not pick up. Enabler then called WW's cell. WW did not pick up.

I left the house and went to my IC.

Came home. WW and kids had gone to gym. I hit redial on the phone and saw that WW had called Enabler.

Enabler is putting on the full court press to get WW to meet her in NYC this weekend. I have asked WW to come with the boys and I to my mother's b-day party.

We will see...

Today will be a big day in our lives. WW will either:

1. Come with the boys and I to my mother's b-day party

2. Not come with us and stay home

3. Not come with us, meet Enabler in NY, and interview for a job in NY on Monday.

My mother's b-day party is going to be a huge family reunion. If she chooses #3, which it looks like she will, I am pretty sure that I am going to divorce her.

I have been praying for you, TE. Please let us know.

hope you are all at the party!!!!

WW did not join the boys and I on our trip to my mother's. Instead she went to NY. I told her I would not pay for it, so she called one of her friends and convinced her to pay for it. We had a huge fight on the phone about it right when I arrived at my mother's. WW did not meet Enabler in NY, but did interview for a job.

I finally exposed the affair to MY whole family.

I am again sleeping downstairs in my house. Although I really just lay awake most nights.

Hope you will put in the divorce papers. That should keep the kids in their home and not in NYC. Also start working on a separation agreement and figure out how much money she needs to make to be able to pay child support and daycare.

Just got back from the lawyer's. Plan D has now begun.

Good. I would try to keep the kids with you.

Although I imagine her showing up in NY with 2 little boys would put a cramp in her freedom and fun, not to mention the affair. But it would be hard on your sons.

She still thinks she is going to be living in NY with the kids and working as a teacher starting in September.

My lawyer said flat-out, "That's not going to happen."

WW's bubble is about to burst.

I know, what are these waywards thinking? They have their own little dream world.

I can't remember, did she used to be a good mother and wife?

I raised my two sons by myself when they were small, and all I did for years was go to work, come home and take care of them. I was too tired to go out for a hamburger.

Yes. Before this she was a good wife.

And she still is a good mother. Although she keeps telling me how people get divorced all the time and the boys are going to be fine.

Sorry, but good moms don't have affairs, want to run off with other men, or tear families apart.

But if she was a good wife before, there is lots of hope, because once you are working the MB stuff and the affair ends, just like magic they revert to their old selves.

I think it's time I just give up on my WW. This just doesn't seem worth it anymore.

Is that" Plan give up"?

Sounds like Plan "I don't know what else to do", to me.

And by the way, saying "I just give up" .... says nothing.
If you are thinking of divorce, say divorce.
If you are thinking of separation, Plan B.

If you are here on MB to work MB , then stick to a MB plan.
And work it.

Divorce. I'm going into Plan Divorce. Plan D.

Well, then you might want to rename yourself.
You are no longer

"trying everything"

Well I have some suggestions. How about DormatNoMore or DontLetTheDoorHitYouInTheAss or AndTheHorseYouRodeInOn or TheWitchIsGone or .... well I think you get the point.

Having to absorb abuse from a WW does not make you more of a man. I get people want to save messages but I just see no reason when you are being treated in this way.

I know when I filed on my XW she changed her mind in a hurry but it was too late. Maybe your wife will wake up when she finds out you are keeping the kids and she can pay you child support. I think that is more likely to wake her up.

Be strong my friend. I can tell you that getting rid of a cheater can be a great day in your life. I am so much happier without my XW. In my opinion she still may change her mind just like my wife did. Just protect your kids and be willing to move on without her. Best of luck.

TE you have been here since 12/28/2090.

You've had four months at doing plan A. Time to file. File for you mental and physical health.

As your lawyer said it's a good sign that WW won't be able to take kids with her. This alone may wake her up.

Serving WW may also cause her to go NC when she is forced to see what she will be giving up by continuing the A. She will not be the first WW that gets defogged when papers are served.

WW may even get dumped by the OM when she shows up saying you can have me full time.

Here's my advice.
(since you are on MB, I thought you might want to hear some MB-flavoured advice from one of the cool-aid drinkers)

PLAN B

You can always do Plan D.
Even now, if that is your decision.
However, you have a window of opportunity for Plan B.
That window is now.

If you find Plan B is really really good for you, (meaning you are happy to be rid of her in your life) then Plan D it is.

Here's my concern.
You file for a D, so you can date someone else yourself.
This is often what we witness here .... and dating while in Plan D is a HUGE mistake.

So, which ever "plan" you choose, B or D, do not date until you are a divorced man.

You're still reeling from your betrayal.
The biggest reason to Plan B instead of plan D right now ???

Two boys: 5,4

Take upmost care of yourself.

About a month ago, I had told her that by today I wanted an NC letter. She did not deliver that NC letter today. Instead, she told me she wanted to get a divorce.

I asked if she was still in communication with OM. She said, "No." I think she's lying.

I asked if she thinks she and OM have a future together. She said, "I don't know."

That's probably code for "I think so but he hasn't told me yet."

First off, OM lives overseas. His parents live in Massachusetts.

WW and I live in a state down South. WW visits Massachusetts only a few times a year, when OM visits.

How on earth are they going to have a relationship when she is stuck down here because she can't take the kids up North and he is in London?

Long distance relationships are hard enough. This is a long distance relationship with a foundation of ADULTERY!

It's called secrecy.

Forbidden fruit.

The fantasy keeps them going because you are evil hubby trying to keep Romeo & Juliet apart.

That's how they view it anyway.

There's lots of ways. Internet chat, she could have a prepaid phone and you don't know...the list goes on.

That may be fine for a while, but guys like sex. And they like it more than once a month.

Wow! Now that's some serious guilt you're laying on me. You Catholic by any chance?

It breaks my heart every night when I tuck my kids into bed. And I am still considering Plan B, but for now I feel I have to file for D before she does.

More of the same. WW is being nice to me, but wants a divorce. She wanted to have lunch with me to talk about D, but I canceled.

Waiting on my lawyer now to review my financial affidavit and file.

Good job.

You are protecting your children, way to go.

I agree with the plan D.

It doesn't mean you have to let the divorce go final. It puts you in the drivers seat as far as how the divorce progresses. You can make it go as fast or as slow as you want, if you are the one seeking the divorce.

Thanks Believer and Enlightened.

Enlightened, you wrote some good stuff on my "Fogged Out" thread earlier today. Thanks a lot.

Cut it out.
I am not laying guilt.
Just reminding you of the facts, as stated by you.




File for your protection.
If that is what your attorney has advised.
Usually, that puts your foot on the accelerator, or the brake, your choice.
Then, you can stall and plan B. (if you want to stall)
If her head stays up her butt, you'll end up divorced one way or the other.

Thanks Pep. I know you're just trying to lend support. I was just kidding about the guilt trip.

It would be interesting to hear from others here on how he can go to Plan B or whatever MB plan would work. I may be missing something. I see his wife moving the kids out of their home to a strange home in NY, while wife runs with her OM and works on her dream. Meanwhile, TryingEverything will be paying child support and not seeing his kids.

His attorney can keep the boys in their home and with their father. If the Mrs. goes off to work on her dream with the OM, then SHE can pay child support.

She is not going to leave our home without the kids.

She doesn't seem like she plans on running off to NY with the kids anymore. She has now come to the realization that she needs to get a job in the state we live in. She says she doesn't want to take the kids away from their father.

We bought our house at the top of the market and we'd have to short sell to get rid of it right now.

That said, she is on the phone with her enabler friend every day. And I believe she emails the OM once again from the public library.

I really want to just divorce her at this point. And I don't feel like shelling out the $ for a separate residence for myself to Plan B her. I'm already blowing enough on lawyer fees.

Removed WW from all credit cards. Stopped direct deposit of my checks into our bank account. Getting a P.O. box in the morning. Lawyer began process of filing for D.

TE, this is Marriage Builders, not "Marriage at all costs." There is nothing that says when one spouse goes wayward that the other spouse has to do everything (or anything, for that matter) to save the marriage.

There are principles here which, when practiced by the willing, enable that person to recover their sense of self and sanity whether or not the marriage is recovered!

Like so many others, I came here lost, confused, hurting and fearful. I read everything I could, I bought the books, and I followed the advice given to me. In the end, I came to the same realization that you have: my wife was far too gone and my Love Bank was so overdrawn that the only sane choice was to divorce. That is still in process as I type.

I was fortunate with respect to Plan B, as my wayward wife said she was moving out, and we signed an agreement to that affect. As she left, I went into Plan B and have been there ever since.

You have worked Plan A, and know that it alone rarely is enough to end an affair. Even Plan B is not guaranteed to recover a marriage. It may only be my perspective, but from reading the stories here since I've come on board, fewer marriages have reached recovery than not (of course, there are some whose stories just --stop-- and one assumes they've left because MB became too much to deal with).

Adultery is a horrible crime. Hollywood and the press likes to portray it as a "victim-less" crime. If only they were required to spend time here reading the many stories.

I believe there are two kinds of wayward spouses: The first is the "accidental" affair, where boundaries are weak and the affair happens almost by accident. The other is the "dysfunctional" affair, where one or both of the affairees just lack something that acts as a "maturity governor" and their entire lives --including the affair-- are "all about me and my feelings." This second type is almost beyond redemption, as their problems run deeper than just the affair. My WW was one of these. It sounds like yours might be, also.

If that's the case, you do yourself and your kids a human kindness by removing her from your daily lives as best you can.

Good luck.

I'm not sure what to make of my WW. I really truly loved her. And still do. She says it was an "accidental affair" but I don't know about that. She has also said to me..."What about me?"

She is so lost right now. She just isn't thinking. And she certainly doesn't hear what I am saying. Unfortunately, she's got a couple of toxic friends that have her ear.

If I could remove the OM and her toxic friends, I think she would revert to her old self. But it's kind of too late for that for me. I just want to get a divorce and let her hit rock bottom. She's like a drug addict that has to overdose before she can finally can start recovery.

At this point I don't even know if I could reconcile with her even if she did everything right. Who knows, maybe we'll get married again some day. In the meantime, at least I won't have to pay alimony

It is the prerogative of every BS to not take the WS back. If you want to D, that is your business.

Another MBer remarried her WS after a divorce. If they can, so can you, should YOUR WS change in the right ways.

TE, make a list.

A list of everything your WW would have to do before you'd consider even dating her again.

If you ever get the chance, give the list to her.

Then let time and fate do their work.

Great stuff, FRED!

WW was served with Divorce papers yesterday afternoon.

Have you heard anything from her?

Yeah, we had dinner with the kids together last night but I told her I really didn't feel like talking about it.

Not sure there's much left to say. When I speak, she doesn't listen. When she speaks, she lies.

Still don't think she realizes the financial dire straights coming her way.

She will soon. Prepare for nicey-nice and empty promises.

Yeah, she has been awfully nice.

Car dilemma: I have not gotten a new car since my lease ran out a few months ago.

WW's car lease runs out mid-June.

I was thinking of buying myself an inexpensive car. Do I need to help her out with a car so that she can drive the kids around?

What does your Lawyer say and what does your D decree say? Did you stipulate anything about the car?

Since WW got served with D papers on Friday, she has been very nice to be around and hasn't brought up the divorce once. We actually had a really great weekend together with the kids... weird.

DO NOT help her in any way if at all possible. That's part of divorce, she has to do this sh@$ on her own with her own time and money.

Spoke with WW last night about short-selling our house. We bought in 2006 at top of the market

WW is meeting with her attorney today to discuss the D papers she was served. I am still hoping we can have a fairly amicable divorce because I don't feel like running up huge debts.

Custody is definitely going to be a thorny issue, because in a year or so she's going to want to take the kids back to NYC.

We are both meeting with a financial planner tomorrow morning.

Make sure you have a clause in any custody agreement or judgement that the children are not to be moved out of State and that they aren't to be moved more than 20 minutes away driving distance. Any such move would require a new custody hearing to determine the best interests of the children.

No real news to report. Another weekend with the kids and WW. So weird. We've been going to Catholic mass each Sunday and there are so many guilt-laden sermons, it's great. I simply don't know how my WW is living with herself.

At this point, I want the Divorce. I am so drained both emotionally and financially, I just want to get away from this woman.

I feel awful for my children. But I did not cause this.

Edit

WW seems very depressed. I think she's overwhelmed by the paperwork her lawyer sent her home with. She looks like she's going to break down and cry most of the time.

Think maybe now she's beginning to understand that she went all-in on a terrible hand. She has no job. She has no money. She's losing her loving husband, her house, her car, her lifestyle, humiliated herself in the eyes of her family and mine, and has hurt her children. All for what? Some selfish jerk and her enabling, narcissistic friend.

Adultery sucks.

Unfortunately that is a lesson she needs to learn.

We both have retained lawyers. I filed. Her lawyer responded.

Today we met with a mediator so that hopefully we can figure out most of the stuff ourselves and keep the lawyers around just to type it all into legaleez. Seems like it will be less expensive both emotionally and financially.

Make sense?

I haven't read much of your thread but if you truely want a D then why try drag it out? Do you still have hope for reovery?

I no longer wish to reconcile. Neither does WW. We are going to D. I just want to do it as amicably and inexpensively as possible. That's why we met with the mediator who is also a Certified Divorce Financial Planner.

He also works with child custody coaches who will help us figure that out.

Really, our lawyers would just be kept on to file the papers, once WE make all the decisions.

Life seems to be going on as usual. WW and I take the kids to little league games, soccer games, out for pizza and ice cream. Only there's this giant black cloud of impending doom hanging over our heads. It really sucks.

Be very careful. WWs can REALLY screw over BHs in court if they don't watch themselves. DO NOT let what happened to Pom happen to you.

Thanks Karmarose.

I think I'm being pretty cautious. My lawyer will look over anything before I sign.

Tomorrow we meet with a child custody coach to figure out what our options are. I know this is going to be rough emotionally.

Well, we met with the child custody coach. It was our first meeting with her, so it was more of an informative session rather than a nuts and bolts session.

Doing this D in a more collaborative way seems like it's probably going to be better for everyone. Financially. Emotionally. For the kids. For WW. And for myself.

But a big part of me still wants to rake WW over the coals.

How are things going for you lately?

Been away on business a bit lately. WW is very unhappy now that I've closed our joint bank accounts and credit cards.

I direct deposit into my own account now and give her a stipend.

Maybe reality will finally start to set in for her... nah.

They usually are. You did the right thing. I don't think that alone will have her enter reality, but it nudges her closer to it.

Uggggh! I just want to be out of this house and away from WW. We are so stuck with this underwater mortgage.

I see us divorced soon and still living under the same roof. Can't believe this is happening.

WW and I met with the divorce financial planner/mediator today. Gave him all our financials. He's going to run the numbers and tell us our options.

On the way out to the car car in the parking garage, WW asked me about custody. I told her I was interested in standard custody. She said, �every other weekend and once or twice during the week?� I said, �Yeah, something like that.� Then she said, �and two weeks during the summer?�

When she said that, she burst into tears.

How an when will you tell your children how easily you gave up on them?

Sounds like reality is finally setting in with her.

Pretty dumb thing to say.

In his defense, his WW is a SAHM. It's not like he's going to get 50/50 custody.

My mistake, I thought his WW runs around with OM making films. Every victim of infidelity should fight for their children. The options are to have children live with OM who is much more likely to abuse them than if they were with the parent who can make sane choices.

Get 50/50. Being a SAHM does not mean she will get custody. That's a common misconception.

Fight for 50/50 and no less. Yes, every other weekend and two days of the week works out to 50/50. I would request half the summer, not just 2 weeks.

DO NOT SETTLE FOR ANY LESS! A judge would likely grant 50/50, short of her presenting any compelling evidence that you don't deserve it. Many states are pushing for judges to start with a default ruling of 50/50 and then adjust from there.

I also travel quite a bit on business and it's rather unpredictable. WW is/was a good mom.

Yes, I want to spend a great deal of time with my kids. But I also feel that I need to focus on my career. That way I can provide them with things like college, etc.

OM lives in London. He's not going to be around. Even if he was around, I doubt he would want anything to do with WW when he finds out what life is like taking care of MY kids.

I made the mistaken assumption that my ex would have a difficult time meeting someone while taking care of 3 kids and that anyone new would be scared away under the weight of the responsibility. That wasn't the case at all.

She found someone who is very similar to me in personality and is a rescuer by nature. He's a good guy, so I don't mind it now in hindsight.

But your career is truly meaningless to your kids compared to the time they can have with you. They won't think, "Gosh, I'm sure glad dad worked so much to pay for my stuff."

They're more likely to think, "I wish I had seen him more."

Wouldn't you rather they say, "I'm glad he fought for time for me. The time and memeories we had were priceless. My daddy makes the best food. We had great times together. I'm glad he was there to tuck me in at night. He put in the effort to be with me."

Of course I want to be with my kids every single day. But we ARE getting a divorce. I am done with this marriage.

WW IS going to get primary custody. I will get as much visitation as possible.

If I wanted to drag it out in court and spend a couple hundred grand, I could fight for primary custody, but is that really in the best interest of the kids?

WW keeps complaining that she doesn't have a credit card saying, "what if something happens with the kids and you're away? I need a credit card."

I told her she should call OM and have him take some responsibility for his actions and send some money.

I don't know what it's like in all states but I've never heard of a judge giving 50/50 when both parents don't agree on it and are fighting.

Haven't posted in a while. So here's the update:

Mediation is moving along. We are dealing with a Certified Divorce Financial Planner and a Custody Coach.

We put the house up for short sale this past week because it's not worth nearly what we bought it for back in 2006.

WW is planning on moving with kids back to NY to live in her parents house by the end of summer so they can start the school year there.

After we sell the house (fingers crossed) I am going to get an apartment down South here where my job is and try to transfer within my company to New York within the next year or so. I should be able to recover financially a little with the cheaper cost of living down here. And I am going to fly up to see my kids the first weekend of every month. And hopefully get to see them when I fly to NY on business, which is also about once a month.

WW constantly asks for temporary support after we divorce because she has no job and no money. But in the state we live I do not have to give her alimony because of the adultery. Just child support.

Today is our anniversary

Can't you legally prevent your WW from taking the kids out of state?

I could probably keep her from moving and fight her for custody and spend a few hundred grand in the process.

But in the end, she has no job, and is hell bent on leaving the state.

That was precious. I assume WW said nothing in reply.
Good for you!

It's highly unlikely that it would cost you a few hundred grand if you're just asking that she be prevented from leaving the state with your children. In Texas, a Judge can put it in the final order that the custodial parent is not to move out of the county or contiguous counties. However, if the non-custodial parent moves away, the custodial parent is then free to move wherever he/she chooses.


Why on earth would you agree to let her take your children so far away from you? I just don't get that.

In the state I live, the custodial parent can relocate to a different state once the divorce goes through.

TE,

You're making a massive mistake if you let this happen. DO NOT LET HER MOVE OUT OF STATE WITH YOUR KIDS!

You will be setting a legal precedent that will make it almost impossible to get a good arrangement down the road.

I fought this battle already.

What a judge will see is that you valued your job more than you did your kids.

If you let this happen you will be fighting a massive uphill battle.

You must stop her from taking the kids out of state. I can't emphasize this enough.

Why in the heck are you doing this?

This is insanity and naivete of the highest order.

Do you really think she's simply going to be nice and amicable if you move over there and give you time with the kids when every overnight she gives up is less money in your pocket?

If you let this happen then you are willingly shooting yourself in the foot.

If she wants to move, then let her. You arrange for childcare for your kids. There's tons of services that can accomodate your hours.

And you're wrong about the "custodial parent" thing. Judges don't like it when parents move away out of state. You are hopefully smart enough that you are establishing a shared custody arrangement.

Understand that her needs are not your concern in the slightest.

What you're willingly doing is setting it up so that another man can raise your kids while you pay CS out the nose.

Guess what state they will use to calculate CS? It will be NY if you let her move there and you can imagine how high that will be.

What I see here if I was a judge is a man who cared so little about his kids that he willingly let them leave the state to keep his own job.

A man who cares puts an injunction against such a move and stops it cold.

Yes, if she was the custodial parent with sole legal custody she could move. Otherwise you would have to approve.

Tell me you have a lawyer. A lawyer would advise you to not be a fool about this.

All she has to do is file papers in NY to get CS there.

This is the most idiotic thing you can do. Consider me the 2x4 you need.

You're willingly walking off a cliff.

Would a couple be going to a judge if the got along? Think about it.

TE,

I read your posts and shake my head. I can't understand it as a father.

Your career doesn't matter. Your kids won't think, "Gosh, dad sure did work hard. I'm glad I didn't see him much so he could work and pay for my stuff."

They'll lament not seeing you.

Get your head out of your a$$ and look at the chainsaw you're willingly walking into?

Why can't you have shared physical custody?

Why can't you put a sentence in the divorce agreement that neither party can move with the children out of state. Any such request must be decided before a judge if one party wishes to do so.

The judge will then take into consideration things such as the disruption of the children's school schedule and the necessity of the move.

If your ex has some awesome job lined up, then that might be something for the judge to chew on. Just to move near her mom?

Not a good reason to take them from you.

You are willingly giving up your kids if you do this. I'm telling you this as a warning from someone who has fought this battle.

You will spend much more later for being nice right now. Nice doesn't cut it in divorce or custody issues.

helpthelostdads, thank you.

My WW has no job. No prospects for a job. She is hell-bent on moving out of state. I'm paying for my lawyer and hers $300/hour.

Even if I keep her here for a year, she's going to move back North with them eventually.

And I want to move back up North too. I always thought the move down here was temporary.

I just don't know what else to do.

BTW: We are trying for a collaborative divorce.

TE,

That's a fantasy that exists in Hollywood. It doesn't in real life. A nice divorce will leave a lot unresolved and emotions eventually get ugly. Once she moves on or you do, the lawyers come out with guns blazing.

This is why I am trying to convince you to not make a MASSIVE mistake. Please sop trying to be nice. Don't let he move out of state or you will pay down the road.

With your wife being the primary care giver, are you fearful of the care giving responsibilities that you will have to assume after divorce with 50/50? If that's the case, you may find parenting abilities that you didn't know you had.

When my ex left me with a three year old nine years ago I winged it out of love and instinct until the lessons of my childhood got in gear, and then things became less frightening.

This is your second chance for a parent child relationship. And some say your most important job, because they will forward the lessons they learn from you on to their kids.

If moving is inevitable, make it on your terms. You say that you are shooting for an amicable divorce. Does that mean that you are the one being amicable, and your stbx get what she want?

Why can't she wait until you are ready to move? That way you both get what you want and you get to stay near the kids.

there is understandable fear in handling parenting alone, but as a man who has done it with one year old twins and a toddler, I can tell you it can be done.

You'll learn, you'll adapt, you'll get good. The kids will adjust.

Do not let her move until YOU are ready to move. Put it in writing that no one will move out of state unless you mutually agree to do so.

Remember that this is about the children's rights to see their parents and NOT about what is convenient for you or for her.

It is not good for kids to be cutoff from a parent. You'll only be setting up a recipe for some really nasty teen years, which are tough enough in an intact home.

Thank you guys so much. I have been second guessing me letting her move out of state for quite some time because I simply do not trust WW.

I no longer feel like letting her move is a good option and will take action accordingly.

Exes have a way of seeking ways to try to cutoff the other person. I�m sure my ex would love nothing more than for me to drop off the face of the earth if she could only figure out a way to keep getting her monthly check while I wasn�t around. It is exactly what she tried to do in our case.

Understand that your assumptions about the law are your enemy. No, women don�t automatically get custody. No, being a SAHM doesn�t give her an automatic advantage. The court will not expect you to support her forever, so she is eventually going to have to get some sort of child care in order to work.

A man who shows that he is capable of handling parenting alone will get many points. One that is in control of his emotions and shows he�s above the fray of attacking his ex gets big points too. Show interest in your kid. Do stuff and don�t settle for scraps of time with him. DO NOT let her move away.

Put it in writing and don�t let it happen until you both agree to move. You will otherwise be setting up a massive mountain to climb later.

Just past the one year anniversary of D-Day when I discovered WW's affair. I guess I'm a bit better emotionally now. Couldn't be any lower than I was then.

We are definitely getting divorced. I still think about the divorce and affair almost every waking moment. I'm still just as dumbfounded as I was then. In a million years, I will not be able to understand how she could do this to me and the kids. I honestly thought we had a pretty good marriage.

We're hemorrhaging money like crazy to attorneys and counselors and custody coaches and financial planners. We're trying to short sell our house in the worst housing market in the last 10 years. We're splitting apart my 401 (k). We're running up thousands and thousands in credit card debt.

And our kids still don't know that in a few months mommy and daddy will be splitting up, for good.

HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!

TE- Sorry bro. Really, I am.

Keep taking care of yourself and your kids. Stay strong and know you did in fact try everything.

Kind of strange really. Right now I don't even want to reconcile anymore. I seemed to have reached the point of no return.

Honestly, if the fog somehow lifted and WW saw the light and started to do everything to win me back, I don't think she could.

That's light years from where I was back in April.

So I took out our camcorder yesterday and I could not find the cord to plug it in anywhere. After searching all over the house, I finally I went out and bought one.

I plugged it in and rewound the tape thinking I would see some old footage of my kids.

Instead it was OM filming my wife's bottom. She was wearing tight jeans and he was joking saying, "Ooooh, I like that shot."

OM using my camera to film my wife's bottom!

Give it to your lawyer. That�s not exactly good mom behavior.

It may not matter. It might.

Sorry you found that. I�m sure it was a big trigger.

What�s the status of your D? What is the visitation arrangement? Do you guys communicate at all?

YouTube! She will be so proud!

OMG! Chrisner, you're my hero! What a priceless thought!

Today my youngest son turns 5. So weird thinking back on the day he was born. Never in my wildest dreams would I think that just two years later WW would get caught up in an affair and destroy our marriage.

We still live together. We're trying to short sell the house. Once we do, WW is going to relocate to NY with the kids and I am going to move to NY as well.

We've been working out the parenting plan with a custody coach. And coming up with a financial memo with a financial planner.

Who knows how long it's going to take to sell the house in this market. Until then, I feel like I'm stuck in purgatory.

Get a custody arrangement in writing. Once you do so, file your written arrangement from your current state in NY. Most states will accept agreements made in another state.

I know this sucks, but you will eventually feel better and move on and perhaps be grateful she's out of your life.

I know you don't believe it now, but it's what will likely happen. You need to cutoff your contact with her, however, to a minimum.

Helpthelostdads, thanks for all your advice. Everything is being put into writing and now we are just ironing out the details.

I know I'll be fine. It's really the boys I worry about most.

The other day, WW and I were discussing the parenting plan that our custody coach had written up and WW said to me:

"Do you still want to do this?"

I said "Yes. I'm too hurt."

I think reality may be sinking in for WW. Her financial situation is bleak. Being a single mom is about the hardest job on earth. And who knows about OM? Maybe the jerk finally dumped her.

Anyway, for me it's too late. If she had said that back in April, I would have tried. I've just gone past the tipping point. What was bent, is now broken. It's over. I don't want to reconcile.

I don't trust her. I can't forgive her. I want to be free of this woman who has brought me so much anguish.

Time heals. You may eventually feel different. Yes, she�s seeing the result of her actions and doesn�t like it. You took the initiative and are ridding yourself of her.

Now, that doesn�t mean that down the road she won�t come to you, hat in hand, and beg for forgiveness. That is when you get to decide if you wish to take those steps for your kids. I would have said yes at first, like you. But that was killed eventually and any chance of it disappeared.

Still, if she shows herself to be a very different woman who is willing to actually sacrifice and work, then you may be more open down the road after you�ve healed some yourself. If you ever get there, then follow MB.

At this time, I am out of love with WW. I am just too hurt. Broken. I see no way I could ever be in love with her again.

Funny thing is, this is probably how she felt about me when the fog rolled in.

If that is how you feel then what is your plan?

Okay, so a couple of weeks ago WW asked me if I was sure I wanted to go through with this. And I said, "yes."

Then last night, WW's mother, who is in town visiting, was a little tipsy and put on the full-court press asking me to take WW back assuring me it was over between WW and OP.

At times I feel like it's to late. But I love my kids so much. I don't want to stay together just for the kids.

I don't know what to do.

I wouldn't be distracted by a tipsy grandma who doesn't necessarily know what the story is between her daughter and her daughter's lover.

If your WW really wanted to save this marriage you wouldn't be hearing it from her MOTHER!

And I do not blame you for wanting to end this.

True, her mother doesn't know even some very basic details. But it does seem possible that WW has turned the corner.

Or could it be that she's getting scared, looking at what will be her future? Please don't be an easy out for her. That's not fair to you, or anyone else.

@Trying -

The big hitters on here say that you need to set the bar high for accepting her back.

Where is your bar? Where is it set?

Even add the kitchen sink, if that's what you want.

Now if WW meets the requirements. What are the pros and cons. Don't discount the staying together for the kids as a pro.

It sounds like your able to analyze this in a rational manner.

What do you want?

Right now, there really is no bar to set. I want out.

Just take a step back and think about what would make you want back in? If nothing, then continue with the current course and don't look back. If there is something, write it down, all of it, and if she asks you again if this is what you want before you get divorced, hand her the paper and Steve Harley's number. If she wants to stay married, she'll do it. If she doesn't want to do it, continue with the current course and don't look back.

I'm not trying to pressure you into taking her back, I'm just saying from your perspective, since you don't sound like you are sure you want out (why would you be asking us if you weren't).

Tomorrow WW and I meet with a judge to sign off on the divorce. We've mediated and ironed out all the details.

Yesterday we got an offer on our home. It's about half of what we paid in 2006 at the height of the market. We are looking at a short sale.

Yesterday we also made up a list of all our possessions deciding who gets to keep what.

Today I get a call from WW saying she does not want to sell the house at such a low price and is there anyway we can keep it until the market rebounds.

As it stands, WW had planned to move to NY with the kids to live with her parents. And I would transfer up there as soon as possible.

When I asked her if we were able to keep the house who would live there while the market rebounded. WW said she and the kids could live there.

This is in stark opposition to everything she has said for the past year and a half.

I think she's finally woken up... one day before the D gets finalized.

Your thoughts on this?

And your answer was ? Unless you want to don't , close the deal and move on with your life. Having her in the house opens up a host of problems , who knows how long it will take for the market to recover.

I fully intend to go through with the divorce and sell the house. It's sad that it's come to this. One year ago, I would have tried to make it work.

Now I just feel like everything is ruined.

I'll bet that was planned.

Don't underestimate the deviousness of a WW.

Exactly...this is all going to be YOUR FAULT and she's the victim

Ever
after



Waiting for the market to rebound? Why...it's a short sale. It's the banks money on the line. Aren't they going to write off the balance anyway so what difference could getting more make as YOU aren't losing a penny more if they sell it at 50% or 25% below what you paid in 2006.

Peace TE

Aren't you just buying another house at a bargain price anyway? I don't see your loss - yes you have a realized loss on the house you sold, but eventually a larger unrealized gain on the house you buy or she does or whatever..

Divorce finalized today. Heart officially broken.

I am sorry.

To all those who helped me, thank you. Especially, I thank all the vets. You gave me great insight into the wayward mind.

For so long I was questioning my own sanity. When I found out about the adultery, I couldn't believe it.

This forum explained it all. I wasn't going crazy. My WW was.

Thank you for helping guide me through a very difficult time.

Sorry to hear this. I hope you are processing this in a healthy manner. Like to see you around more seeking support as you make this change.

Mr. Wondering

Took WW off my health insurance plan today. She's eligible for COBRA. We still live under the same roof so not too much has changed since the D finalized.

WW looks terrible. She's developed some skin problems from the stress and often wears a mouth guard because she grinds her teeth at night.

She seems pretty miserable and sad. I'm doing okay. Not sure I'll ever understand why we had to go through this. It just doesn't make any sense on any level.

Over a month post divorce. Still living under the same roof. We take the boys to little league almost every day. We attend church as a family. We have breakfast and dinner together. There's an 800-lb. gorilla in the room at all times.

Focus on yourself, eat healthy , exercise and keep a clear mind. Time will heal your wounds. Sell that house and move on , your wife chose her journey she must walk it or crawl it on her own. Get on with your life and love your children, this is a new dawn for you time to start afresh.

Thoughts are with you.

Casting aside the blame and resentment is sooo hard. I know I should be thinking of this relationship as a business now, but it's tough to let go of my anger and disappointment. I keep reliving it all in my head.

I know things will change when we finally get out of this house, but for now everything just feels ruined. From Christmas to Easter to Mother's Day, it's all ruined. Even stuff like mowing the lawn seems pointless.

And it makes me so angry that all these decisions like selling the house, and hiring lawyers, and relocating, and transferring my job have been forced upon me.

There's got to be a way out of this mess for you (and your kids).

I'd be mad as heck in your situation too. Screw "casting aside blame and resentment"...it IS her fault and I'd be finding a way to Plan B her in my own house no matter what it took.

She's not your wife anymore. Her choice. She gets no more courtesy than a rank stranger. She'll never give up this arrangement as long as it's comfortable.

I'm mad for you.

Mr. W

We're trying to short sell the house. We've got an offer, but we're waiting on the banks. I'm still making payments so as to not kill our credit.

If the banks don't agree, I suppose we'll have to foreclose.

As far as plan B goes, I avoid eye contact for the most part and make very little conversation. After we put the kids to bed, I go to my room and she goes to the living room. We don't talk at all for the rest of the evening.

But we are constantly bringing the boys to little league and getting them ready for school and getting them ready for bed together, etc...

BTW: Thanks Mr. Wondering. You and the Mrs. have been very helpful and insightful.

So now that I'm divorced and soon we'll be in separate residences, how should I feel/act if XWW and OM get together.

The thought enrages me. I don't want OM or XWW's enabling cousin around my children. I'd rather XWW met someone new.

On the other hand, I would kind of like to see them give it a shot just so I can watch their relationship fall apart. Oh please, please, please let it fall apart.

TE,

Your W and OM deserve one another. I mean really would you want some unsuspecting nice guy being married to the woman that your W turned into? The guy would not deserve that.

I still like the old saying: "If the will cheat with you, they will cheat on you." The both deserve a dose of their own medicine in my mind.

God Bless,

JL

Just remember this saying: "The best revenge you can take against someone who's stolen your W is to let him keep her"

What I'd suggest though is that, once you are in separate residences, you execute a permanent Plan B against your XWW. Find something or someone else to occupy your time.

What would that Plan B letter look like? Would there be conditions upon which a relationship and/or friendship would be reconsidered?

Personally, I hope I'd have the ability to pray my then ex-wife would receive the gift of repentance. Repentance and forgiveness would be the best for her, your children and you. Neither repentance nor forgiveness require a reconciliation. Thus, the plan b letter could include some kind of general outline of a way plan b could end. Maybe something like the following:

I can no longer be in any kine of relationship with you, however, should you have a change of heart and wish to seek my forgiveness in a continuing act of repentance, I may be receptive to speaking.


I know reconciliation of your marriage is off the table now. However, MANY people reconcile and remarry their spouses even years down the road. I've seen numbers from 6% to 14% of divorcees eventually remarry. However, you don't have to reconcile your marriage for her to repent and you forgive.

Repentance is different for everyone. Repentance means "a change of heart". It's a gift from God and in a situation like yours I'd presume it would basically include your ex-wife begging for your forgiveness, choosing to accept any and all of the natural consequences of her sins and looking to you for leadership of your family (a willingness to submit to your decisions about the children, custody and maybe even alimony/child support).

Stranger things have happened and being receptive of God's will and gifts is important for your healing as well. Hope is healthy.

Mr. Wondering

Haven't seen you much W, glad you're still around.

Apologies for TJ.

TE,

It's tough to Plan B with little ones. Keep your contact to a minimum and accept that there is little to nothing you can do with what she does with the kids when they are with her.

All you do by arguing with her about that is staying engaged emotionally.

Let it go, as much as it sucks and you don't like it and it isn't right.

I say this to you as someone who had to come to terms with this very thing.

Thanks guys. This site is amazing.

I like the idea of a permanent Plan B. And even a post divorce Plan B letter. Very interesting.

I often think, mostly because I love my kids, about whether we will eventually down-the-road remarry. I think we had a good marriage and a great little family before all this went down. Trust will certainly be an issue.

Another issue is the fact that other women are really responding to me like never before. Last time I was single I was an insecure 20-something. Now I actually have some confidence. I make decent money. Plus, I lost some weight on the adultery diet.

And I don't have to carry around the burden of guilt that WW is stuck with for the rest of her life. My conscience feels pretty good.

TE- I know what you are going through now as I was in the same boat a couple months back. It's hard, but like the others have said, you just have to "let go and let God". I don't think there is much you can do legally to prevent your STBX from bringing the OM around.

Once you get to the point of negotiating your parenting agreement, you may be able to get her to agree to a no overnight guests of the opposite sex while each of you have the kids. That is what I was able to do, but it still doesn't prevent other men from being around them.

I think a Plan B would be great, but not sure it is realistic with younger kids. You will have to communicate with her or through an IM until all your kids are of age.

Life goes on and you will be OK.

In 10 days WXW moves with the kids to her parents' house on Long Island.

I will continue to stay at our home until we close on the short sale. Then I will move in with a buddy of mine until I can transfer with my job to NYC.

We're telling the kids either tonight or tomorrow about the divorce and that Daddy will not be moving with them.

Not looking forward to it.

Okay, so WXW and I still live in the same house for another nine days. And today I get home and find a package on the front step from Victoria's Secret.

It's soft. Probably a bra and undies inside.

I threw it on the kitchen floor next to the garbage.

Any way you can get some itching powder into that package?

Any way you can get some itching powder into that package?

Cayenne powder would be nice too. That way the sex can be really HOT!

How did my wife become such a loser? It just makes no sense.

A 35 year old woman living with her parents. I see this as Karma already. No home, no money, massive debt, broken soul, and alone. Would you date that?

New Date: So you are 35. What have you done with your life?
xWW: Well - hum - Well - hum - I made two kids.
New Date: Really - you have two kids. Why did you divorce?
xWW: Well - hum - Well - hum - I was in a sordid affair with a 40 year old never been married loser who sleeps with hundreds of woman. I thought he was my soul mate. So I threw my amazing xH and kids under the bus and jumped on his train.

New Date: Check Please!
xWW: What? What? - I have changed I promise. I won't commit adultery anymore. Really - I am not that kind of lady!!

Her life will just suck from now on. The only way out for her is to break completely down. Repent to you and then start over from scratch. Until she really gets what she has done she will no longer grow. Her insides will be stuck at the level she is today. She has to break in order for a breakthrough to occur. She cannot have that breakthrough without your help. She tore herself in half and she will continue to bleed to death until she repents. Unfortunately, she will never heal herself unless she repents with you and the children first.

Cheers Tough~

Throw it out....make her wonder where it is at etc!!

Thanks Tough. I think some people�like a lot of drug addicts�have to hit rock bottom before they can truly recover. Sometimes you just have to let them fall.

WXW moved last weekend.

Now she and my boys live at her parents' house in NY. I'm still in our house trying to close on a short sale. Hoping to avoid foreclosure.

And hoping I can relocate to NY.

Hi TE,

I read your sitch again, and two thoughts occur to me.

The first is that you are in a dark purgatory. Not seeing your kids for, what, weeks? That's brutal. I struggled when my daughters were gone for nine days. Do you have a priest or pastor to turn to? He should be able to help strengthen your soul for a time like this.

The second thought is, please, do not give up hope of reconciling with your wife. Miracles happen. Dr. H says reconciliations after a divorce happen a lot. If you reconcile with XWW, your boys will love you forever. You will be a hero in their eyes. Isn't that worth more to you than dating some hot chick? I know it is for me. And Dr. H has a whole plan for reconciliation after an A. Don't. Give. Up. Hope.

-----------------------------------------------
Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again)
Her: WW, 34
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In Plan B since 11/15/10
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
OM stopped working with her 08/10
Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10
Wife files for D: 02/10/11
Still hopeful

Every time I start thinking this way, WXW lies some more. The affair is still on. POSOM is still in the picture. And WXW continues on her decent into disgrace and ruin. It's pretty sad.

This past weekend I caught WW in another lie. It's a little hard to explain, but I'll do my best.

On July 1st, WW and kids moved in with her parents in New York.

She told me I should come visit the boys the week of July 11th because a "girlfriend of hers was going to be in town" and she really wanted to see her.

So I flew to New York, borrowed WW's car and took the kids to my brother's.

Later that week she sends me a text saying that she's in Vancouver. I looked at POSOM's Facebook page, and low and behold, on his wall... pictures of Vancouver!

Since I had her car, she must have gotten a ride to the airport from her parents. I figure she lied to them too because I doubt they would have driven her an hour and a half to the airport if they knew she was going to see OM.

So yesterday I sent this email to my WW's parents:


Dear Parents,

Several weeks ago, WW told me she was hoping I could visit this past week because "Girlfriend was going to be in the states."

She also suggested that it was a good week for me to visit because it would be good for the boys if I visit them as soon as possible after they relocated.

As it turns out, it was all a ruse so she could fly to Vancouver to be with OM.

Just thought you should know.

TE

Two truths:

1) Waywards suck and will lie through their teeth without reservation. It comes with the territory.

2) You were not accurate when you said in another thread that your WW has a black belt in lying. Most waywards really aren't that good at it.

No, but they sure do practice a lot.

Even though I'm divorced, I'm still contemplating a Facebook Exposure on POSOM.

Are there any ramifications toward me if I do?

He could pursue you physically or vandalize your property. Most OM's are cockroaches that merely talk a big game but never follow through. In all the years here I don't recall an OM beating up an BH ever. I imagine it happens sometime and most particularly when the OM is manipulated by WW to believe the BH is physically abusive. But even then, OM will just marry the ww quickly and move her and her kids to Texas .

Another ramification. He could sue you. Anyone can sue anyone for just about anything. The most likely claim is defamation. A defense to such claim is truth...however, absent absolute proof of actual sexual intercourse it gets tougher and tougher to make the defense the further down the road you are. Since you are already divorced...the court/jury is not likely to be as understanding/lenient of your "exposure" if OM spins it that you are lying. Of course, the better your proof the less chance he'll sue you.

Just to be safe...I often advise people to expose using the word(s) "extramarital affair" instead of adultery or sexual affair as "extramarital affair" covers a gambit of "relationship" and then you aren't automatically calling him an adulterer. In addition, some states take statements about someone's immoral conduct a little more seriously than others. For example, in some states and OP may be able to make a claim for Defamation or libel PER SE.

Here's a general definition:

libel per se n. broadcast or written publication of a false statement about another which accuses him/her of a crime, immoral acts, inability to perform his/her profession, having a loathsome disease (like syphilis), or dishonesty in business. Such claims are considered so obviously harmful that malice need not be proved to obtain a judgment for "general damages," and not just specific losses


Well, you can see that what would constitute "immoral acts" is awfully broad, isn't it? Well, if you facebook expose using the word 'adultery' it's a pretty obvious you are accusing him of a "immoral act", whereas when you say "affair" you have a pretty good argument that it's not an "immoral act" since the state doesn't even recognize it as such anymore....plus, it's much easier to prove "an affair" where adultery has a precise legal definition which is more cumbersome to prove as a truthful utterance.


Of course...I am not meaning to scare you off it. Expose away. There's an empowerment that comes after doing the right thing and no longer protecting their dirty secrets.

Mr. Wondering (sorry I rambled, got choppy and probably redundant...I walked away to watch the end of the tigers game and came back to this post)

Mr. Wondering, once again your post is awesome. Thank you so much. The legal difference between adultery and affair very interesting.



That would be a dream come true.

Since I still have my WW's email password, today I saw an email to POSOM.

It was a picture of WW and POSOM dressed for dinner in Vancouver this past week, holding each other posing for camera. And her caption was, "I like this one."

(Add little barfing face here.)

Since you are coming up on 2 years since D-Day have you thought about Plan B?

Are any of her EN's being met by you?

Let her feel the real pain of her divorce. Let him meet all her needs. Go on with your life in Plan B. This affair will one day be over. You can wait for her or you can move on. You can move on and still wait for her. You can move on and never look back.

OM is a player. She is living with her parents acting like a teenager with kids.

That lifestyle will get old soon. It cannot be maintained forever.

Go Dark Plan B and get healthy!

Yes...so if you intend on exposing get it done and move on. I don't think having her email password (and using it) is exactly healthy FOR YOU. You are divorced. Heck, it might even be considered illegal for you to access her email.

At some point you may want to either tell your xw VERBALLY (without documented evidence) that you know her email password and she should change it OR, in the alternative, sign that email up for every list you can and get it bombarded with junk email to the extent that she'll think she has a bot virus and the first thing someone will tell her to do is change your email password.

Sure it may be nice to have it and keep an eye on her...for the kids sake...but, really, in the end it's not going to amount to much other than driving YOU batty.

YOU MATTER TOO. You've been divorced since March. We aren't telling you to forget...just go dark and responsibly shut down your own covert access to her life. She's no longer your problem.

Mr. Wondering

Thanks. I agree the passwords are not healthy for me.

That said, I've had so many doubts though as to whether the affair was still on, and as to whether or not I should divorce or try to reconcile.

It is thanks to the passwords that I now know I made the right decision to divorce.

I agree that now it is time to go dark, but we are still trying to get rid of the house, still dealing with banks and our real estate agent, still planning visitation, planning summer camps for the boys, and so we have to talk about all these things every day. It's hard.

Her agenda is to live in a rabbit hole and avoid real life decision. She'll drag out these details indefinitely.

Your GOAL...I suppose is to PUSH this agenda and wrap up these details. You don't tell her why....just do it. You eventually will likely have to impose ultimatums to finalize these issues...such as:

"If I don't hear from you by ______, 2011, then I will presume my proposal is ok and we will go from there as if it's agreed. Then follow through with YOUR decision until she objects, when she objects make her do it in writing (creating distance and documentation).

I know a part of you likes having all the resolvable issues on the table still too.

Stop that.

Mr. Wondering

You vets all think you're SOOOOO smart

Still trying to short sale the house. That's when you sell for less than you owe. Our banks have agreed and now we are just waiting on the buyer's bank to approve the mortgage.

We bought in 2006 at the top of the market at my WXW's insistence. She said, "I'm not moving away from New York City unless we buy a house!" Of course, a year after we sunk all our money into the place she met POSOM and began the destruction of our family. Might have been nice if she began the affair BEFORE we bought the house, no?

This week I moved everything into storage because I thought we were closing on the house. Right now I am sleeping on an air mattress, alone in an empty house.

I am able to Facetime (Apple's version of Snipe) with my children every day and I am heading up North to see them for a week starting this Saturday.

Short sales are a pain in the neck and take a long time.

I am also speaking as little as possible to WXW.

Is it bad to say scathing remarks to Ex WW when I know she is going to spend a weekend with OM?

It reminds me of 2009 when she ditched the kids with me for the same exact thing.

I've just written a rather scathing email, but have not hit send yet.

Vent here - do not send it. Do you want to reconcile in the future? If yes, then do not send it. Affair will die soon - could be remarriage.

Think about it for a while. Do not send it yet!!! She is wayward and still an alien. It will not process in the crap of her brain.

I won't send it. Although not because I plan on reconciling anytime soon. More because I feel like I'm beating a dead horse at this point.

She's your XW. The state of mind that you should be aspiring to as far as she's concerned is INDIFFERENCE. When you communicate with her, indifference should be reflected in your communication.

It's a waste of time. Don't send it.

in�dif�fer�ence/inˈdif(ə)rəns/
Noun: Lack of interest, concern, or sympathy

I think I've probably been residing more in Plan FU recently. I will try to make the switch to more of Plan Indifference.

It's pretty hard because I'm so angry. Saturday I picked up the kids and she asked, "How was your flight?" Like I really want to make small talk. I ignored her.

Okay, so I was pondering the slippery slope from flirting to EA. I think most waywards think a little "innocent" flirting is no big deal. And the next thing you know, they are emotionally entangled.

About a year ago, I read an email from WXW to her cousin after meeting OM while on vacation at her cousin's house. The email read:

"Say hi to my new boyfriend. It's probably a good thing he lives in London." Clearly, they had met and hit it off and were flirting heavily right from the get-go. But I think WXW didn't think she'd destroy her family over it.

Then one time I discovered a letter WXW had written to a screenplay awards show. In describing herself, she had become disillusioned with moving to the suburbs and being a homemaker.

She even mentioned how this hum drum life might lead someone to an affair.

This was three months before she met OM.

Which leads me to think that :

1. She DID set out to have an affair. At least subconsciously.
2. OM could have been anyone. The opportunity just arose with this guy.
3. Since OM could have been anyone, their relationship is doomed.

Their affair IS doomed, BECAUSE OF THE WAY IT STARTED AND WHAT IT WAS BUILT ON.

Flirting is a manifestation of WEAK boundaries which is the corner stone to why someone has an affair. MOST people DON'T go looking to have an affair, and it seems to them that it just happens. It was because of all of the small choices that they made up until that actual moment. It is ALL because of weak boundaries. Someone whom is married, should NOT allow a member of the opposite sex to meet ENs, PERIOD. End of story. When you do, you open yourself up for the possibility of an affair.

Of course it didn't matter about who OM was, he was just there, and he had weak boundaries as well. Nothing more.

Coming up on two year anniversary of D-Day: The day that will go down in infamy. So here's my two year progress report:

Divorced and losing our home to a short sale.

I am moving into a new apartment this week in Atlanta. WXW and kids live with her parents on Long Island (1000 miles away). I am trying to relocate to NYC, but for now visitation is expensive and very difficult. Fortunately though, I am able to Facetime (Snipe) with the boys every day.

WXW got half of 401(k) and cashed it out.

I've acquired about $25k in credit card debt. WXW about $10k.

I still think about the affair every day and every night, almost obsessively. I just can't believe it happened.

I've met a number of women recently. Last time I was single, I was a twenty-something, insecure mess. Now I'm more confident and in great shape from the infidelity diet. One of the fears we BS's have is the fear of being alone. I no longer have that fear. But I do wonder if I will ever be able to have such strong feelings of love and trust for another woman. So in that respect, I could be alone for quite some time.

I look forward to a year of rebuilding.