Little history....

For the last year or so I've been suffering for severe depression (cause unknown), to the point I was angry all the time. I didn't realize it until just before Christmas when I finally went to the doctor and he put me on some anti-depressants and I started talking to a counselor. Around the same time, I found out my wife was having a "mini-affair" with a 19 year old kid in CT. Now they have not met, they've only talked online and on the phone. However, my wife told me she was leaving me just before Christmas because she was getting what she needed from emotionally. I told her about the depression and I've begged and pleaded with her to give me another chance. She did come "home" after Christmas, but she's staying in a hotel, where she is continuing talking to this guy. Her reason for coming back was because she thought there was a chance to save our marriage, but she needed to fall back in love with me. Though she says she's in love with this kid. She's been back since Friday and we've gone out a few times, and we have a good time, but she's always holding back. When I asked her to come home she told me if she did we couldn't sleep in the same bed because it wouldn't be fair to this other guy. I'm so miserable right now, because I love my wife dearly, but I just haven't been able to show it too her for the last year or so. I don't know what else to do, and I know with her living separately that it's going to be much harder to work on us. Plus the fact she has yet to make a committment to saving our marriage (i.e. breaking it off with this other guy). I need some help/encouragement.

Thanks,

Click "Notify" and ask the mods to move your thread to Surviving an Affair. Good luck, hang in there...

A little more information might help...

How long have you been M'd?
Any kids involved?
Does anyone else know about her A?

You cannot save your marriage without killing this affair first. Try not to minimize it, since your wife moved out this is not "mini-affair".

The best move for busting up the affair is to expose it. There is a lot of people here including myself for whom exposure was the start of recovery.

Discussion about exposure

Welcome to the club.

You will get a lot of good advice here. It may seem a little "crazy" at first, but once you start acting on it, you will gain confidence and power.

You need to realize the extent of our situation ASAP. You are likely going to be inclined to minimize things, and get caught up in your pain. Don't do that.

Immediately take action, and one of the most important things is to take care of yourself so you can be strong. You will need strength. Taking care of yourself will enable you to make less mistakes.

And we are here for you.

I am glad you are getting help with your depression and I am sure this does not help any with it.

Your wife is having an A .. not a PA but and EA if she has not met this other person yet... no such thing as a mini affair

one thing NOT to do is beg, and cry to your WW you want her.. etc.. why you ask? Because being a FWW that is what she is wanting for you to pity yourself, etc..


Is she wanting to save the M still? have you both done the EN's questionair to see what can be done to fall back in love with 'each' other?


So wrecking your M is a fair thing to you? that is what shes doing wrecking the M you have. Its NOT fair to YOU.

Want help? Heres what you need to start doing. Tell both of your friends, both of your families etc... What shes doing. EXPOSE EXPOSE EXPOSE.
How old are you both? Any kids?

How do you know that your WW and OM have not met in real life?

Will have been married 7 years in May.
My 14 y/o daughter from a previous marriage. I have custody of her.
Yes, there are lot of people that know about her A, her parents, my parents, our priest and friends.

I'm 35, she'll be 28 next month. 1 child from a previous marriage.

First he is in Conneticut, we live in Ohio.

Until Christmas we lived in the same house, and there was no reason to believe that he came down here to visit. The EA has been going on for about a month or so. I caught the chats on her facebook account. We went to her parents for Christmas and she stayed down there an extra week so she could have time to think (she told me she was leaving me right before Christmas). I'd talked to her alot since then about trying to save our marriage, which is why she wanted the time. The week she was down there I have no idea if he went down there, so she may have met him. She says that he was trying to get a plane ticket down to Oklahoma (where her parents live) that week, but she was advised not to let him come down as that would be adultry and I could use that against her. That could have been a lie, I don't know for sure. I did look at her cell phone records and she was calling him during that time, so I'm pretty sure he wasn't there. If he was there would be no reason to call him.

Have you spoken with the OM? He's 19, for crying out loud. You don't think he'd be put to tail if you came after him, "Stay away from my wife, kid?!!" How about exposing this to his parents, girl friend, etc.?

Also, you should know that people don't leave their marriage "to think about it." There is more going on here that your denial is refusing to let you see.

If you want to save your marriage you're going to have to start taking action to do so. Read up on the Basic Concepts here (start by clicking on the "Most Popular Links" on the right of the page here) and read up on Plan A and Plan B. The veterans will be along shortly to ask questions and help you put together a plan.

There is no way this A has any future. Your best bet is to kill it now and start work on rebuilding your M.

LOL - I had to chuckle at the "adultery" comment. So what on earth does your WW think she's doing now..??

That your WW is staying in a hotel and refuses to share a bed with you suggests to me that this EA (Emotional Affair) likely progressed to a PA (Physical Affair) at some point.

I'm with Fred - contact the OM, and his parents, and expose what is going on. Also, look for the "Carrot and Stick of Plan A" thread - lots of good advice there.

Before Christmas when I found out about the affair, I had my wife get him to call the house (she claimed she didn't know his number, that he only called the house phone which doesn' thave caller ID). I took the phone and told him to stay away from wife, that what he was doing was disrepectful to me and her and that if he ever talked to her again I would hunt him down. Wife didn't contact him for a couple days, but then started using her friends facebook account to talk to him and send him text messages. I found the facebook conversations on her phone a few days later. I haven't talked to him since. I have his number, but I'm afraid if I call and threaten the kid again, it will only make her angry.

I thought about contacting his parents, but I don't have any contact information for his parents. I only have his number, which I believe is his cell phone. Contacting him is only go to make my wife angry (which she all ready is).

Where do I find info on Plan A and Plan B??? Is it in the book (His Needs, Her Needs) I just started reading it the other night, only a couple chapters in.

Do not let fear of your WW's anger prevent you from taking steps to break up the A. You know his number. It should not be that difficult to get his name. And some more investigation should turn up information about his parents.

However, if you do call him again, I suggest that you do not "threaten" him - that could be used against YOU.

BTW - as your WW seems to be scared of the word "adultery" being used to describe what she's doing, I suggest that you use exactly that word whenever you expose or talk to someone about what she's doing. It will generate a lot of conflict, which is a GOOD thing.

It's in "Surviving An Affair" (SAA), by the same author. There's also some information about the plans available on this site (and in this forum, too).

The saying here goes, "Your marriage can survive anger. It cannot survive an affair."

You need to take proactive steps to kill this affair NOW.

But DO NOT THREATEN. You are an adult, he is a child. You simply have to inform him that you will take the necessary steps to ensure he stays away from your wife. You don't have to give specifics, just make it known that you're a man and you're going to save your marriage.

I could be wrong (I hope I am!) but if your WW is refusing to sleep with you out of some misguided sense of loyalty to OM, they've probably gone PA. Get tested for STDs immediately.

So, make her angry. Most waywards DO get angry when reality starts to creep into their little fantasy life. Can you find out more about OM? Any family members of his that you can contact?

Call Mommy and Daddy!!

Intelius + Phone number = Parents name/address/number

Parents name/address/number X respectful call from you = Dead affair

http://www.intelius.com/

Yes she will be mad, just like any addict who has there drug taken away.
IT WILL PASS!!

If I got a call from a man, saying my 19 yo son was running around with a 28 yo MARRIED woman, I would FLIP OUT. Oh, yesiree, I would definitely be that BS's ally! Hooeee, would my son ever get it from me!

Plans A and B in my sig.

By the way, QUIT TALKING RELATIONSHIP TALK to your wayward wife (WW) right now. Be fun to be around. Be attractive. She's not in any frame of mind to talk about relationship stuff. Wait until she is (weeks). For now: Plan A and expose. No relationship talk. No expectations. Just do it.

Well his cell phone is in his mom's name (at least that's what it looks like). Tried the white pages, but couldn't find a phone number that matched her name....

Ohh, boy

http://www.intelius.com/
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http://www.intelius.com/


And just in case you missed it
http://www.intelius.com/

Yeah...that's what I used. There's a crap load of people with her name, but in the relationships it doesn't show his name.

Start calling each one of them. "Hello, is this Jane Doe who is the mother of Johnny Doe? I have very important information that I need to give to her. Oh, it's not? Sorry to have bothered you." Click.

"Hello, is this Jane Doe who is the mother of Johnny Doe? I have very important information that I need to give to her. Oh, it's not? Sorry to have bothered you." Click.

"Hello, is this Jane Doe who is the mother of Johnny Doe? I have very important information that I need to give to her. Oh, it's not? Sorry to have bothered you." Click.

"Hello, is this Jane Doe who is the mother of Johnny Doe? I have very important information that I need to give to her. It IS? Mrs. Doe, my name is sboisvert, and..." take it from there.

Well this is kinda interesting.... Last night at church (we arrived separately) one the priests we both have been talking to, his wife asked my wife to dinner tonight. Consequently, the priest just asked me out to dinner tonight.......Different restaraunts....

So I talked to my wife on the phone last night. And we somehow got on the subject of our marriage. I asked if she wanted to save our marriage and she said part of her wants to but a part of her doesn't. I asked her what part of her doesn't and she replied "that part that doesn't want to get hurt again." She told me a few days ago that it would be so easy to come back home but she was scared that things will go back to the way they were. At the same time she says that she sees the changes that I'm going through and that she's seeing the me that she fell in love with.

I'm not sure how I can alleviate her fears. I can't promise that there won't be pain in a reconsiliation of our marriage, because I know that there will be disagreements at times. She's coming over tonight for dinner, so I was thinking about talking to her about creating a plan to restore love to our marriage. Filling out the emotional needs questionaire and discussing with her the issues we've had in our marriage and how we can resolve them.

We have an appointment on Tuesday with our marriage counselor, this will be the third time we've seen her together (I've seen her a few times on my own, wife has seen her once on her own), the first two times didn't go well. So needless to say I'm a little apprehensive about this one. The counselor wants to discuss setting goals with us. I'm not sure how we can discuss goals if she's not made a committment yet to save the marriage. She has agreed to go to a 3 day marriage workshop in February so she's made a partial committment.

Even when we pray together at night (last night we prayed on the phone) she prays for God to watch over our marriage and to help us find the love we once had. So I guess I'm a little confused, maybe I'm just getting my hopes up, but it sounds to me like she's starting to realize our marriage might be worth saving. The only thing stopping her is the affair and fear of being hurt again.

Don't let her manipulate you like this. She is putting all the burden on you - 'the part of me that doesn't want to get hurt again' my a@@. She is equally responsible for the state of your M. She needs to do equal work - not sit back and claim to be a victim of the M.

Here are the facts: Your M hasn't been the best and you both need to work TOGETHER to make it better. Having an A does NOT make it better!

BTW, MC while an A is in progress doesn't do much good.

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with that I'm not the sole problem in our marriage. I know that we need to work together to solve the problems. She knew I was suffering from depression but never said anything other than "My Dad thinks you need to be mood enhancers." She never just came out and said I think your suffering from depression and should go see a doctor. Plus her inability to come to me when we did have problems, for fear that I might get mad.

Hence the reason why I want to start putting a plan in action as soon as possible, set goals and begin restoring the love back into our marriage. Goal #1 is to end the affair, Goal #2 is to identify the issues and create a plan to resolve them, Goal #3 is execute the plan and return love to our relationship. I just need make her feel more comfortable in talking about our feelings to each other. When we were in Oklahoma for Christmas, I thought we had a bit of a break through in that area, as we were really talking one night. The talking led to kissing, the kissing led fondling, and eventually making love. But we haven't gone down that road since she came back home. She seems to be somewhat standoffish when it comes to anything physical or emotional. If we start to talk about feelings, she says it's making her uncomfortable and she changes the subject.

Don't talk relationship talk right now.
Get your love busters in check.
THEN reassess.

She's given you TONS of things you can act upon, right now. Re-read this short thread and see what she complained about, especially the ones you acknowledge (because some complaints will be nothing more than fog babble from her). Wherever you see a legitimate complaint, or a complaint that pre-dates her affair, that is something you need to fix right now, and it needs to be a permanent change.

Don't tell her you're fixing things, let your actions speak for themselves.

Don't expect immediate results. It takes months and years for a marriage to disintegrate; likewise it takes months and years to rebuild it.

Did you find Mommy and Daddy and call them yet?

No luck yet...

Call all of them.

One has to be them.

Working on the list. Didn't have much time last night though, only got through a few. Probably won't be able to call any tonight, as WW is coming over after work. Don't know how long she'll stay.

If you really want to achieve your GOAL#1 You will EXPOSE right NOW. No excuses. The affair HAS to end BEFORE you can do anything to try and R your M.

Read up on Plan A and DO IT. Part of Plan A is EXPOSURE.

You are getting GREAT advice here from the vets and all you have to do is ACT.

I've all ready exposed it to her parents and our friends (including our priests at church). I've also talked to OM. I'm having trouble tracking down OM's parents, I have list of 84 names/numbers to call. Her father is on my side, but says he will support her whatever the outcome. Her mother on the hand I can't trust, but says that she'll do what she can to save our marriage. Friends are trying to help, but as most of them are ministers at our church, they're bound to "secrecy" or whatever its called. If I say something to the priest he can't say anything to WW even if I tell him it's OK.

Nothing panned out..... Kid is only 19, so he doesn't even have any records on Intellius. Parents home phone must be in Daddy's name, which I don't know.

I keep seeing posts about the NC Letter, but no real description of what it is. Is this something she would write and sign or is it something I write and she signs it? We have an appointment with the MC tomorrow, so I was thinking either she agrees to NC or I implement Plan B.

With Plan B, do I totally cut her off, i.e. financially? Right now she's staying in a hotel, which I paid the first week of. She has a job, but no insurance and wouldn't be able to afford the hotel. There was an apartment she was looking at that she originally wanted me to lease before she came back that she could afford. I put my foot down and told her I wasn't putting my name on a lease for her, that I wasn't going to be responsible if she didn't pay her rent. So I told her I'd get the hotel (extended stay) and she agreed.

Other problem is she does have medical issues and sees the doctor frequently. Do I remove her from my insurance as well, seeing that makes me financially responsible? I'm not even sure that's legal with out a formal separation or divorce.

I don't think a WW can be dropped unwillingly from your HI, and being still married you would get the bills.

However never finance an affair.

Stop paying for the motel. Tell her you will not continue when the first payment has been used up.

Who have you exposed?

I've exposed her to her parents, my parents, and many of our friends at church. As far as he goes, he's a 19 y/o kid in CT I've told him once to back off, and as suggested I've been looking for his parents contact information, but have had no luck. I went through a list of 84 names for his mother (I found his cell phone number was in her name), but nothing panned out.

If the cell no is in mom's name then you should be able to find an address. Go visit the mom and tell.

Intelius only gave the city, no address and they have a very common last name.

Ah Ha.... The power of the internet prevails!!! Sort of.....

Found a picture of him and his dad when he graduated high school. So I now know his dad's name. Intelius still doesn't pull up a phone number though. grrrr.... I think it pulled the right one though, because his mom's name is in the list of relatives. Had an address, but Mapquest can't find it. Tried looking on the county assessors site to see if there was any contact information and the address doesn't exist there either.....hmmmm...Does have a P.O Box address as well. Might try an send a letter to both addresses. Would rather call. Any other ideas of how to find the phone number (might be unlisted).

OK, seeing I can't find a phone number, but I have an address I decided to write a letter to Mommy and Daddy..... Please let me know what y'all think:

Dear Mr. and Mrs. XXXXXX,
My name is Tresmal. I�m hoping that I was able to track down the parents of XXXXXX XXXXXX. If you are not XXXXXX's parents, I apologize for taking your time and you may discard this letter.
It has come to my attention that your son, XXXXXX is currently in an adulterous relationship with my 29 year old wife, XXXXXX. This relationship started online back in November, either through a Cystic Fibrosis web site or in the World of Warcraft game. The relationship has progressed to a point that my wife is now having an affair with your son. Whether the affair has become a physical affair yet, I do not know, I do know that they are having an emotional affair which has included phone sex, as well as cybersex (sex through e-mail, chat programs and phone texts) and possibly pornographic pictures being sent.
My wife and I have had some problems in our marriage lately and in the past which has caused her to have these emotional affairs. Typically they do not last long, however I am very concerned about this one. My wife and I are trying to work through the issues in our marriage and this affair is a severe hindrance to our reconciliation.
While your son is technically an adult, I would like to ask that you speak with him about this and explain to him that what he and my wife are doing is morally wrong.
If you would like to contact me concerning this matter, my phone number is (XXX) XXX-XXXX and my e-mail is XXXXXXXXXX.com.
Thank you for your time,

Tresmal, I think it's too wordy. And has too much non-essential information. Try refining it a bit:

I like the shorter version, but there is no address to give and I'm not certain this has gone physical yet. He lives in CT, we live in OH. To my knowledge they have not met each other. But I could be wrong.....

It was an example. Tailor it to meet your information. But don't prattle on about your feelings and minutae. Give them enough information that tells them you KNOW they are having an affair.

Bottom line: their son is acting inappropriately toward a married woman. 'Nuff said.

Just let them know that you know it's THEIR son.

So I called him again today.....

Told him that he needs to stay away from wife. That I intend to save our marriage and I will do whatever is necessary to do that.

Got the letter ready to go in the mail tomorrow to his parents (hopefully his parents), was running late this morning and forgot to grab it.

I also called her and told WW and told her that I called him and exactly what I said to him.

What was her reaction?

Well I called her right after I got off the phone with him. She let out a sigh, and then I told her exactly what I told him. She didn't really say to much. She came by shortly after to pick up my daughter to take out to dinner with a friend of ours and her daughter. I talked to her briefly, but the subject didn't come up. I did ask her if we could talk for a few minutes when they get back (should be home here in about 30 minutes). I'm hoping to see if I can get some kind of reaction/feedback from her then.

Apparently he's putting words in my mouth. He told her that I said "She told me this morning she doesn't love you." She also told her that I threatened him..... I did no such thing, but I can tell she's pissed.

What I told him was "This affair is a fantasy, and the love she's says she feels isn't real. It's only because you satisfy one of her emotional needs, something that I've neglected. I intend to rectify that. I intend to save my marriage, and I will do what it takes to do so."

How long should I wait before starting Plan B??? Right now she won't break of the affair. There is a marriage workshop down in Nashville, TN called A New Beginning, which is run by the Family Dynamics Institute the weekend of February 19th ( http://www.savemymarriage.com/ ). They use some of Dr. Harley's techniques. She says she wants to go, and told me that it would either bring closure or let her know that our marriage is worth saving.

I feel like I'm being used. My wife has Cystic Fibrosis and had surgery back in Novebember. The second part of the surgery is scheduled on February 18th, the day we're supposed to head down to Nashville. It's out patient and we should be able to leave right after. I just feel like she's staying around long enough to have the surgery done.

She told me yesterday that OM wants to come down in February to meet her. She said she hasn't decided if he should come or not. Part of her wants him to come, because she thinks that if someone else can make her happy than she'll know that we weren't meant to be together.

I figure I should at least wait until Mommy and Daddy get the letter, to see if that will end the affair. But I don't how much more of this pain I can take. Every time I see her my heart breaks a little more and I know my daughter is affected by all this, but she doesn't show it. This whole thing is affecting my work, I can't concentrate and all I can think about is my wife and how much I screwed up this past year.

My daughter just showed me an e-mail that she sent to my wife last night and my wife's reply. My daughter basically told her that she wishes my wife was back home.

My wife responded saying that she will always be there for her whether she's in the hotel or at home. That she can't wait until she starts dating, because they're going to have so much fun.

This is just cruel... She knows that my daughter still hasn't gotten over my divorce from her mother, even though it 14 years ago. She also knows how much her mother has messed with my daughter's head. Hence the reason my daughter wanted to come live with us. She sees my wife as her real mother. She's getting my daughter's hopes up and then if she doesn't come home it's going to destroy my daughter, not that it wouldn't destroy anyway, but getting her hopes up is going to hurt her even more.

I am so pissed off right now.....

This woman seems crazy telling DD that she can't wait to start cheating (date) on her dad.

Your case is proof why everyone that can be exposed must be exposed ASAP.

I hope you have been reading and learning here long enough to understand that this is just utter wayward bs and should be ignored. I know it is easier to say than done but still, do not take this seriously, please!


Stop accusing yourself about your wifes choices. Whatever you did or did not do, it does not justify A.

Continue with exposure and plan A. If they are planning to meet you will expose this info also, especially OM parents.

Went to the post office this morning and sent the letter express mail. Guaranteed delivery by noon tomorrow. It's a P.O. Box, so who knows when they'll get it. The address I found may not be his parents either. I'm pretty sure it is, cause in the relatives it listed his mother's name, but it didn't list his. Though being 19, I have my doubts he has very much on record.

She was talking about my daughter starting to date, not WW.

I would not reveal my exposure actions. I also would not know whether your wife reported accurate details of the OM discussion.

Keep relationship talk light. Keep discussion short but cheerful. You will NOT be depressed when you are speaking to her.

Remember, you are in plan A.

Trying to keep the relation talk light.... We are seeing a marriage counselor and I have been reading HNHN. I mentioned it to her and about the "quizes". She said we can go through the quizes when she comes over Friday night. Other than that I have tried to keep the talk off our relationship as much as possible. I did ask last night about the marriage workshop, and the counselor wants us to set some goals. I.E. by the end of the month, I show her that I'm helping around the house. Kind of a stupid goal, seeing she's not living in the house right now and I have to take care of everything. Funny thing is, the house has never been cleaner. She used to make a mess in the kitchen when she cooked, would leave dishes in the sink for days before putting them in the dish washer. I cleaned the kitchen (actually the entire house) before she came back from Oklahoma. Even with all the cooking I've been doing, there's never a dish in the sink. This was one of her issues with me though, that I wasn't helping out around the house enough. I used to do a majority of the cooking, 'cause I love to cook, but I lost interest in it when I started slipping into depression. I'm starting to enjoy cooking again, keeping the house clean has always been a pet peeve of mine.

The only other problem I really have with my wife is that she is addicted to World of Warcraft. Granted I used to play all the time with her, and I realized that this was part of the problem in our marriage. I've stopped playing about a month and half ago, but she still can't get enough of it. Probably because OM plays too (which is where they met).

Just curious here. WW's birthday is coming up as well as Valentine's day. Should I just be acting "normal" and buy her gifts and take her out like I usually do? Go away for the weekend (though I don't think she'll agree to it right now)? The following weekend is the marriage workshop in Nashville, so I doubt I'll doubt she'll want to spend two weekends in a row with me. Plus I'm pretty sure that's the weekend OM is planning to visit.

These are perfect opportunities to hone your Plan A skills.

The more you can separate her from OM, the more chance you have to be the best H you can be. Just don't expect her to reciprocate.

OK, so is time for me to implement plan B or continue with Plan A?

Recieved the following text from WW (see Need help quick ansering text from WW ):

"What bothers me Is that you are choosing to believe that my feelings for OM aren't real instead of the possibility that they are real theres a chance I would choose happiness that I feel with OM over the happinness we've shared. I want the chance to meet andrew in person and see if the feeling we shared via phone/aim/txt is real when in person. Or if its just a cover feelings that I've lost from you and our marriage. And I can't determine that unless I meet him face to face, or I will always be wondering what if. I don't expect you to undertand any of this, I'm just trying to express my honest feelings with you on what I'm thinking and how I'm feeling."

She is smoking WaywardCrack(tm). Her feelings about OM aren't relevant. She shouldn't be having feelings for ANYONE but her husband as long as the two of you are married.

Don't want to be married? Then get out and THEN start seeing/dating OM.

She's being totally selfish and immature.

Plan A her until you're done. Or if you're done, make sure you have Plan B ready to go before you implement.

When you receive fog-babble from your WW, you should either reverse-babble, or don't respond at all. Don't give her babble "life" by turning into a point of conversation.

Your response:
Hey, that reminds me, I got the new compost kit in the mail today that I ordered. I'll put it together when I get home today.

In other words, do NOT discuss relationship. Period. Offer her a cookie every time she tries to justify.

Plan B letter First Draft (borrowed some from others on the forums):

My Dearest WW,
This is the hardest letter I�ve ever had to write, because I love you so much. I remember the weekend we spent in the Hocking Hills, where we were so happy and in love. The way you smile at me melts my heart and your beautiful blue eyes burn deep in to my soul. I have and always will believe in you, you are the most amazing person I have ever met. It pains me now that I must make this difficult decision.
I�ve been sick for the last year or so without knowing it and this illness has caused me to say and do things that were hurtful to you. I wish I knew what was going on with me sooner so I could have gotten help and kept you from the pain I caused. I also neglected to take into consideration your needs, because as they changed I was unaware of what they now were. I failed to keep the lines of communication open with you so that I could better understand what was needed in our marriage. For all this I am truly sorry.
This past month for me has been such an eye opener and an emotional roller coaster for me. I learned that I was suffering from depression and then as I started to seek treatment you tell me you�re leaving me for another man. I have learned so much about myself and our marriage over these past weeks and I am making permanent changes to myself, and I have no doubt in my mind that we can rebuild a new and better marriage together.
It is with a heavy heart that I must now tell you that I can no longer support this affair. I�m asking that you refrain from contacting me through all lines of communication (e-mail, phone, text messages or instant messaging). I have spoken with Priest XXXXX and he has agreed to serve as an intermediary for us. Please direct any correspondence through Priest XXXXX and I will let him determine what information to pass on to me. During this time of healing, I cannot support you financially as that would relay the idea that I support your affair. Please remove my name from all your credit card accounts. The money in the joint account is yours to do with as you please. As for your remaining belongings in the house, please send me an e-mail detailing the items you wish to have and I will have them packed and ready to go on a date that we both agree upon. As for your cell phone, please obtain your own contract and a new phone and return the phone you now possess so that I can give it to DD. Please make sure to reset the phone, deleting all contacts, text messages, pictures, etc.
When you are ready to recover our marriage, you only need to end the affair, never contact him again and call me to let me know the affair is over. We can talk about the details of our recommitment then.
It is my sincere hope that someday we will be able to start a new marriage, one that will bloom and blossom into something great. I want us to be able to meet each other�s needs so that we can both enjoy the bliss that comes with a great love. I love you and I always will and I want to restore our marriage into something better than we ever dreamed about. When you are ready to come home, I will welcome you home with open arms and forgiveness.
Love,
TresMal

Seems good.

I'm still not ready for Plan B emotionally, but I'm trying to get prepared in case I have go down that road. OM's parents (he's 19) should get the letter today, guaranteed delivery by noon. Though it is a PO Box, so they may not get it till tonight or tomorrow, depending on when they check their box. There's no guarantee that I tracked down the right people either. Crossing fingers and praying.

We talked with one of our priests last night, and for the third time since this started she started to cry. The first time was after we watched the movie Fireproof (a good movie for those having marital issues), the second time was Monday night when she told me that she does miss me, but wasn't ready to come home. I'm not sure it's a good sign that she's starting to cry in front of me or not, she's been so stoic when we're together not showing much emotion. She said last night the she wasn't happy, which I understand this last year has been hard on both of us. Mostly due to depression on both our sides. The problem is she refuses to see that as the symptom to our unhapiness, even though we've talked about how happy we were before the depression started. I know I shouldn't be talking to her about our relationship and I don't unless we're at the MC or with our Priest.

Your not ready then don't.

Recap when and who did you expose?

Her parents, my parents, my sister, our priest, OM and a few friends. I sent overnighted a letter to OM's parents (hes 19 wife will be 29 in a couple weeks) yesterday.

I just don't know if I can handle this much longer. I can barely get any work done, because I keep having to leave my desk to find a place to cry (one of the side effects of Cymbalta - Exessive Crying). I don't know if its the side effects or if its that emotional for me. I've never been one to cry, in seven years of marriage this is the only other time my wife has seen me cry, the last time was at my grandmother's funeral.

Just got a call from the post office...The P.O. box address is not valid. Gave them the street address that came up. Hopefully they still live there.

Changed some of my search criteria and found Daddy's e-mail address. He's a teacher at the high school OM graduated from.

Great first draft.
I'd make it shorter, because waywards have the attention span of a flea. Plus you want to emphasize
1) Your love for her
2) The need to protect that love
3) A path back home

Anything else is noise and confuses WW.

I'd put the stuff I colored green into an attachment. It's good that you're settling out the finances and how she'll get her stuff. You might also want to put a visitation schedule in the attachment too. Otherwise that's just an excuse for her to contact you.

The letter is very good.

Please stick to one thread so we can follow you and your full story.

Your WW is living a fantasy.

She is craving attention and this kid has been giving it to her.

Your exposure is key to turning things around.

You are separated right now. I recommend you go to Plan B.

Think long and hard about your daughter. Protect her from the drama that a dragged out Plan A would have on her. Standing up for yourself and your self respect will say a lot for your daughter.

I recommend you fully expose and go to Plan B.

Visitation? I'm assuming your talking about my daughter. She's from my first marriage, not my WW. I'm torn about keeping my daughter closed off from WW, 'cause her biological mom was horrible to her, which is why she came to live with us. She sees WW as more of a mother than her biological mom.

Right now, we have a "visitation" schedule between me and her. This was the MC's idea. She comes over Monday, Friday, Sunday and then we see each other at church on Wednessday.

I know she's living in a fantasy (as well as angry at me). I'm hoping Daddy reads his e-mail and does something on his end, but there's no guarantee there. Right now I'm not emotionally ready for Plan B, however I'm thinking of going with a modified plan B, until I'm emotionally ready. Right now, she's living in the Extended Stay hotel. She wanted an apartment before she came back and I talked her into the Extended Stay, hoping she would come back home within a couple weeks. I was wrong. I'm thinking of telling her to go get the apartment and split off the finances, i.e. she gets her own phone, pays her own rent, utilities, car payment, medical bills, etc.
She's going to be just barely scraping buy, if not in the negative.

I have one problem with Plan B, or question I guess. We both are active members of our church. After Plan B is initiated, do just avoid her at church and church functions? I don't think either one of us is willing to give up our faith for the other.

Go to worship at different times.

Can't our church only has 2 services one on Wednessday and one on Sunday. We both go both days.

Go to another church.

Does your pastor/minister know?

Yes, one of priests knows, we've both been talking to him for several weeks now. The rector of the church knows some of what's been going on from what the other priest has told him, but I'm not sure how much he knows. We both like talking to the priest more than the rector.

We're part of a small church, well not really that small it's a world wide church, but there is only one congregation where we live. The next closet church is about two and a half hours away.

@Tresmal, I admit to not being a churchgoer, so I'm a bit at a loss to address the church angle, but I'll toss out some thoughts. If they resonate, swell. If not, well, maybe someone else with a better handle on such things can advise.

Have you counseled with your priest? If you're both deeply connected to your church, it would seem your wife's behavior goes against its teachings. Perhaps counseling with clergy more might help?

And what of the "ungodliness" of adultery? Perhaps it hasn't reached that stage yet, but without being addressed, it will. Does your wife not see anything hypocritical in her actions?

If you cannot find another way to worship, then it seems to me that the worship component ought to be a strong lever in showing your wife the "error of her ways."

Just my $.02.

Yes we have counseled with our priest, but he's not "equipped" to really counsel on marital issues. I've sent an e-mail to one of the higher level ministers in the church this morning. I think she understands the ungodliness of the affair, but I don't think she cares. I've tried to use our faith in order to bring her back, but she thinks its just me trying to win her back. Over the last year or so, we've both pulled away from our faith in a sense. We didn't go to Wednessday night service and would occassionaly miss a Sunday service. Since the affair started I realized the need to have God back in my life and I've started going to every Service we have. She thinks I'm doing it just to get her back, because I know church is a big part of her life.

She says she sees the changes that I've been going through the last few weeks, but she doesn't believe that I'm doing it for our marriage. She thinks I'm just doing to get her back and then things will go back to the way they were. She doesn't trust me right now and second guesses everything I do or say. But at the same time she tells me actions speak louder than words (which is true), she doesn't believe that my actions or things I say are genuine.

It is more likely that her saying that you are only doing it to get her back is just typical wayward talk. Right now, she probably doesn't want to believe that you can truly change. Unfortuanately, you have little control over what she "believes".

One of the things I alway tried emphasize to my W was that I wasn't trying to "change" myself. It is very difficult for a person to change who they are, and probably shouldn't. What I believe is that if a person doesn't like who they see in the mirror, then they need to change the behaviors that are causing that negative image they see.

I hope that makes sense.

Makes complete sense. The changes she wants to see in me were things that I started doing when I entered into depression. Things that I didn't like about myself. For instance, I used to do a majority of the cooking, because I love to cook. Though when I entered into my depression, I lost the enjoyment of cooking and slowly passed that "chore" off to her. Now that I'm receiving treatment for the depression and sort of coming out of it, I've started doing all of the cooking in the house again. Though partly out of necessity because she's not living there right now, but even so I'm starting to enjoy it again. She's having a hard time believing that my actions over the last year have been due to the depression. She has said a few times, that she starting to see the TresMal that she fell in love with....What ever that means.

I am certainly no expert on these matters. If I am not offering good advice here, I hope that the pros will correct me.

It may be a slow, painful process, but for her to believe in you again 1st she will have to want to. 2nd you will have to try and keep "the TresMal that she fell in love with" front and center 24/7. Even when she can't see it, you should try and live it.

Tresmal,

BTW, I love to cook also. I really love it when the girls are all enjoying a meal that I prepared for them, and they tell me how good it is, and that I should have my own show on the Food Network. That might be fun, but I just enjoy doing it for them.

Heh...I'm the same way. I'd rather cook for a group of people rather than myself. Wife used to tell me I should try out for the Next Food Network star reality show.

Plan B 2nd draft (thanks Turtlehead):

My Dearest WW,
This is the hardest letter I�ve ever had to write, because I love you so much. I remember the weekend we spent in the Hocking Hills, where we were so happy and in love. The way you smile at me melts my heart and your beautiful blue eyes burn deep in to my soul. I have and always will believe in you, you are the most amazing person I have ever met. It pains me now that I must make this difficult decision.

I�ve been sick for the last year or so without knowing it and this illness has caused me to say and do things that were hurtful to you. I wish I knew what was going on with me sooner so I could have gotten help and kept you from the pain I caused. I failed to keep the lines of communication open with you so that I could better understand what was needed in our marriage. For this I am truly sorry.

This past month for me has been such an eye opener and an emotional roller coaster for me. I learned that I had been suffering from depression; something I never would have thought could effect me. I have learned so much about myself and our marriage over these past weeks and I am making permanent changes to myself, and I have no doubt in my mind that we can rebuild a new and better marriage together.

It is with a heavy heart that I must now tell you that I can no longer support this affair, as I need to protect the love that I have for you. I�m asking that you refrain from contacting me through all lines of communication (e-mail, phone, text messages or instant messaging). I have spoken with Priest XXXXX and he has agreed to serve as an intermediary for us. Please direct any correspondence through Priest XXXXX and I will let him determine what information to pass on to me.

During this time of healing, I cannot support you financially as that would relay the idea that I support your affair. Please remove my name from all your credit card accounts. The money in the joint account is yours to do with as you please. As for your remaining belongings in the house, please send me an e-mail detailing the items you wish to have and I will have them packed and ready to go on a date that we both agree upon. As for your cell phone, please obtain your own contract and a new phone and return the phone you now possess so that I can give it to DD. Please make sure to reset the phone, deleting all contacts, text messages, pictures, etc.

When you are ready to recover our marriage, you only need to end the affair, never contact him again and ask Priest XXXX to let me know the affair is over. We can talk about the details of our recommitment then.

It is my sincere hope that someday we will be able to start a new marriage, one that will bloom and blossom into something great. I want us to be able to meet each other�s needs so that we can both enjoy the bliss that comes with a great love. I love you and I always will and I want to restore our marriage into something better than we ever dreamed about. When you are ready to come home, I will welcome you home with open arms and forgiveness.

Love,

Tresmal

I like it. See what others say.

Haven't read thoroughly but I would suggest no marriage weekends until the A is over with. Although it is a suggestion of hers to go to the weekend, not sure you will get anything out of it, other than the 'right' for WW to say, 'see, I tried". She will be so foggy during the weekend that it would be a waste of money and time. Perhaps you could recommend a weekend away with you, with no contact with OM, see if she would go for that.

There is no way for her to really try in her M while she has ANY contact with OM. Ask her if she would be willing to go no contact (none, no emails, texts, not even thinking about him...) for a month to REALLY give your M a chance. Then Plan A your lower backend off.

I've sort of all ready suggested that to her...I asked her for no contact for 6 months to give our marriage a chance. She declined, she wants to have her cake and eat it too. She wants to work on us and still communicate with him. I've told her several times, our priest has said and the MC has said it as well, we can't work on the marriage until OM is out of the picture. She just won't give him up, because he makers her happy. She told the MC that she's never like this about anyone before.....What a crock of doggy poop.

>She wants to work on us and still communicate with him

If she does this what is your plan?

She must have a CONSEQUENCE for this behavior.

Before she came from her parents, she talked to our priest and she agreed to give our marriage 6 months. Part of that was to stop communications with OM. When we talked with the priest on Wed. he repeated this and told her she had to make a decision and for me to give her some space. I didn't talk to her much yesterday, other than calling her to pray together before bed. She's planning on coming by tonight to spend time with me and my daughter and to talk.

Basically, if she doesn't agree to no communication, I will probably implement plan B, which I really don't want to do. She told me on Monday that she does miss me, but she wasn't ready to come home yet. Her brother is in similar predicament, he's been affair as well. He moved out and has decided to focus on his wife and marriage, but isn't ready to move back into the house yet. My wife seems to be following his actions, with the exception of breaking off contact. The same day he told her that he was going to work on his marriage was the same day she told me she missed me.

Her family is all screwed up right now. Her mother and father are living separately, her brother is having an affair, and her other brother's wife is off galavanting at night (not sure if she's having an affair or not).

Well just found out she added OM back to her friends list on FaceBook on Wed.

I don't know how much longer I can do this....I'm starting to break and I haven't even started Plan B......

I don't want to lose her, but I can't be happy when I'm around her, 'cause all I can think about his what she's doing.

I'm tired of her playing these damn games. They hurt too damn much. We pray together every night, and she always prays for our marriage, but then she continues with the affair. I'm so lost now....

hmmmm.....

Just sent my brother in law a text message, basically telling him I was lost and didn't know what to do anymore. I don't mind talking to him, he's a priest in our church so he's bound to "secrecy" .

He replied back saying he had talked to her yesterday and she said that we were going to try.

News to me. Though she didn't come over yesterday either and I didn't really talk to her much a few texts here and there and then called to pray with her. Didn't get into any relationship stuff.

As far I know she's still talking to OM though. So I'm not sure. I did ask her yesterday via text, if she still wanted the apartment (she can't afford the hotel, neither can I) and she said "yes, but can we talk about things tomorrow?"

So I dunno.

Hmmm... He just texted me again saying he was texting her all day yesterday about it and she had told him that she was going to tell OM she couldn't talk to him anymore, after yesterday because it was OM's birthday. I'm having a little trust issues here....So I dunno.

Sooooo....If what my BL says is true. What are my next steps?

He told her not to rush back home so I don't think she's going to come home right aways, especially seeing she said she still wanted the apartment.

I'm guessing the No Contact letter would be appropriate, don't know if she'll do it though.

Guess continue with Plan A. Make home an inviting place to be and brush up on those EN's. So what does it mean when a woman says she needs more affection. I'm a little rusty here, I know she needs words of affirmation and acts of service (The 5 Languages of Love). She told the MC I haven't been giving her enough affection...I'm not entirely sure what that means though. We have been distant, I guess that means getting off the computer and spending time with her, which I have but she still spends a lot of time on the computer playing World of Warcraft. I've kinda outgrown the game, we used to play all the time, but I started realizing back in October that it was sucking up all our time and we didn't spend any time together. I don't want to get back into that again.

Well tonight has been quite eventful....

WW came over after work and tells me that she broke it off with OM, and wants to work on our marriage, but isn't ready to move back into the house. Good I guess, but I'm not sure I trust her. This would be the fourth time she's said this.

Then OM's parents called me and oh are they pissed. Mom even called the police apparently. Don't think the police can do anything they're both over the age of 18. But Dad was furious and said they were going to be talking to OM and then Mom said after they read him the riot act, she was going to call WW.

Acording to Mom, WW had sent her an e-mail and Mom had responded to her telling her that she disaproved of the relationship.

So I dunno, do I tell WW that Mom and Dad called me? She was here when they called the first couple times, I just didn't answer the phone, cause I didn't recognize the number. And I was expecting a call from one of our out of state ministers to discuss this with him and I didn't want to discuss with WW around. She saw the number, so I'm assuming when Mom calls her tomorrow she'll put 2 and 2 together.

Well, you aren't going to lie about the phone call. If she asks you about it, you will state that yes OM's Mom called you but you don't have to discuss what she said. I am glad that they are going to be allies in fighting your WW's A.

Don't trust her word. Follow Dr. Harley's advice for how to end an affair appropriately.

Hmmmm....So WW asked me out for a date tomorrow.....

OK.... So WW has now broken off with OM and wants to work on marriage. She doesn't want to move back in yet. She still has trust issues with me. Not sure why she has trust issues, but ok. I do know she's having a hard time getting over the pain that I've caused her over the last year with the words I said and some of my actions. So how do I get her to trust me again and to believe that the changes I'm making to myself are permanent changes to better our marriage? How can I help her get over her anger/trust/pain issues?

I know I still have trust issues with her. I know I can work those issues. So how can I help her?

Thanks...

Simple just plan A WW.

And

Monitor for NC.

Tresmal, have you read the book, "Surviving An Affair?" The plan for recovery is in there. You might suggest to your WW that the two of you read it together (you don't have to be living together again yet).

Chapter 6 is called "Preparing for Marital Recovery." It addresses getting through withdrawal and introduces the Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery. Those rules are

• The Rule of Protection
• The Rule of Care
• The Rule of Time
• The Rule of Honesty

I strongly urge you to study and learn these rules, as they are your guideposts. Without them, you are working Plan T(resmal), and you know how that's turned out...

Haven't ready SAA yet, still working on HNHN.

Well she's pissed at me now, 'cause OM broke no contact today and told her that I contacted his parents. Just when things were starting to look up.

What do I do now?

I feel like I've ruined any chance of reconciling my marriage. She won't talk to me right now. Doesn't answer texts or phone calls.

We have an appointment with MC, but I don't know if she's going to show up.

I'm so lost right now, I hurt so much. I don't know how much more I can take.

She can be as self-righteous as she wants, but in the end she has no one to blame but herself. You did nothing wrong. You are fighting for your M and she is fighting for a return to the way things were, where she had a H and a BF.

My thought is her anger is less about what you did and more about an excuse for her to continue her R with the OM. They have probably worked out a way to sneak their contact from you and the parents and her anger at you is to get you to second guess yourself regarding contacting the parents again.

My suggestion, contact the parents again and let them know the OM contacted your W. Let the A partners know you will NOT bend to their anger, you will be inflexible about exposure and EVERY time you learn of contact between OM and WW you will be calling his parents.

This is a common manipulative ploy for her to get what she wants by threatening 'it's over'. Yea, sure it is, and her snogging a boy has nothing to do with this?

Keep up the good work...Her A cannot stand light shed on it, it is a shameful relationship and will not survive exposure...so you know what you have to do...

EXPOSE EXPOSE EXPOSE!

Thanks I needed that. I talked to my brother-in-law, who was also involved in a affair recently and is trying to rebuild his marriage. He basically said the same thing, "You were well within your rights. She forgets she was one who was doing the wrong here. I know, I just had to realize the same for me."

Tell WW she had the affair.

You only told the truth.

By the way normal WW rage after exposure. It passes quickly. Just idle threats.

Get some popcorn and sit back and watch WW pitch a hissy-fit.

She's mad because she is still in llluuuuv with OM and you've taken steps to burst her fantasy bubble.

If she asks "How could you?" or similar questions, tell her "I love you and I'll do whatever it takes to protect our marriage."

If she says she's going to file for divorce, or that she WAS going to leave OM but you've pushed her into his arms, or that she can never trust you again after this (my personal fave, by the way) just pat yourself on the back that your exposure is working. Just let her rave. When she calms down, ask her if she'd like some lemonade, or ice cream, or to check out the art show that opened on Tuesday. In other words, ignore her ranting and change the subject. Stick to your Plan A.

Yup, that's basically the one she threw at me. Though she had all ready told me she was ending on Friday by the time she found out.

Went to the MC today, and she threw a fit again, saying I had no right to involve his parents, its one thing to call him but not his parents. I told her I'm her husband and I have every right, I have an obligation to protect my marriage and break up this affair. I asked how she ended it and she said that she told him they couldn't talk anymore. But that he wasn't going to stop trying. She did make a verbal contract with the MC to not communicate with him for 1 month. I tried to get her to write the NC letter, I printed out a copy of what it should entail and read it to both her and the MC. She said she couldn't write that letter. MC wants us to make a list of all the things we are going to do to try and work on our marriage. She had us make a verbal list, WW's was quite short like she thinks she's perfect all she really had to say was that she was to try being open and honest with and talk to me about her feelings. My list was quite a bit longer, though I've been thinking about just that for a while now. MC also wants us to make a list of things we "dislike" about our spouse.

Still going to the New Begininngs workshop in February though. So we'll see what happens.

She's still in the Fog....

Though, alot of friends at church are working on her so to speak. She's been out to dinner with two of our priests wives 3 times in the last week and a half. In our church the priest's wife is an extension of the priest. A priest in our church must be married before they can be ordained, and the decision to accept the ordainment is by agreement of both husband and wife because the wife is to act as an a partner with the priest.

I dunno, if it will help. She did say she felt like the ministers and people at church were ganging up on her. So I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Weird....

Yesterday I spent most of the morning severely depressed and crying about this whole thing. I've done a lot of crying over the past weeks, which is abnormal for me. I typically don't cry.

Anyway, today I'm actually in a somewhat decent mood. Not sure why, but I haven't been sad all day. Is this normal? Has anyone else gone from one day being totally miserable and the next day be perfectly normal (well as normal as it can be, wife is still in the hotel)? It's almost as if the emotional baggage has just disappeared overnight.

Oh yes, perfectly normal. The emotional baggage will be back soon.

Make the most of your light mood. Over time the lighter moods will become longer than the darker ones and you will be able to see things a lot clearer.

I wouldn't get my hopes too high that MC will have much effect while she's still actively wayward (in thinking if not in deed).

It will be interesting when those lists come out. Basically they sound almost like an EN/LB questionnaire (things you "dislike" about your spouse), and a list about how you will implement Plan A (allthe things you are going to do to work on the M).

Oh, I'm not getting my hopes up, she's said that she wouldn't talk to him/ended it way too many times. I just don't trust her when she says it any more. She told him that they couldn't talk anymore, but that he wasn't going to stop trying. So, she's gonna get mad at me about something and she'll go right back to talking to him. She's just going to hide it better. I all ready know that she was having him call the hotel phone instead of her cell and that they talk on the computer too. Neither of which I can track....Though I do have key to the hotel room.


I was thinking the same thing. As for the list of things we're going to work on, we're supposed to give our list to the other and have them rank them in order of what is most important for them.

Yup, it came back last night.... Wasn't bad, just a knot in my stomach. This morning though, I started crying again in the car on the way into work. Last night I started to get angry about it, this morning I've been flipping back and forth between anger and sadness. I keep telling myself that it's time to give up. All I get from her is the fog babble (or whatever y'all call it). When we do see each other, she'll kiss me everynow and then and she'll kiss me goodnight when she leaves to go back to the hotel. I'll tell her "I love you.", sometimes she'll say it back, sometimes she won't.

Right now I feel like she's just using me. That she's just playing the game until her surgery in February. It's so hard to plan A her right now, because I don't know what to talk to her about when we're together, because all I can think about is how to fix our marriage. She tell the MC that she needs affection from me, but when I try to show affection she pushes me away.

I hate this damn roller coaster, I want off, its making me sick. I've lost almost 25 lbs since December, not that I'm complaining, I needed to lose that weight, but its the wrong way to lose it.

Are you able to monitor NC?

If you can then sit tight.

Yes and no....

I can monitor her cell phone activity, i.e. phone calls and number of text message sent (can't tell who she's texting though). Since she told me she ended it with OM, her texting has gone down considerably and she hasn't called him from her cell phone. Unfortunately, with her in the hotel, I'm pretty sure she was having him call the hotel phone or while at work calling her work phone. I also can't monitor her online activity because her computer is in the hotel.

She may have also purchased a new cell phone (prepaid or new contract), she did this once before a few years ago using her parents credit card. She could have done the same thing or used one of the credit cards I don't have online access to.

I have a key to the hotel room, but if went in there and she found out, what little trust she has in me would be broken. So I really can't monitor NC. She did say that he's still trying to contact her, i.e. when she plays World of Warcraft, IM's, e-mail, etc. I don't know if he's trying to call her or not. I know he called on Monday and told her that I spoke with his parents.

It sounds like you are getting near the time for Plan B. And I would suggest moving to Plan B before her surgery. That feeling of everything being OK is you really over her, and you don't want to get there while in Plan A.

So, do you have an intermediary set up? Have you been working on a Plan B letter?

Yes I have an intermediary and have my plan B letter drafted:


The only problem I have with Plan B, is that she has supposedly ended it with OM and is willing to work on our marriage. Plus there is a weekend marriage workshop that she wants to go to the day after surgery (surgery is outpatient and will only take about an hour). I wouldn't say I have a feeling of everything is OK, I still love her and I miss her. But at the same time, I can't stand the ups and downs of my emotions. I'm not sure executing plan B will help with the emotional rollercoaster.

"I have a key to the hotel room, but if went in there and she found out, what little trust she has in me would be broken"

Why/how do you have the key?

Possession implies privilege to use.

Trust issue is backwards. You did not bang the OM.

WW did.

You have waited this long then wait till after the surgery.

Is the weekend marriage workshop scheduled and paid for?

Who is this workshop with?

You have a lifetime to be divorced. This work S will be the turning point. Either WW is making hollow promises, or it will start her on recovery.

Sit tight till then. Get your ducks in a row for possible plan B if needed. Letter composed. 3rd party to handle contact.

When we checked her into the hotel, they gave her two keys. She asked if I wanted the other key, so I took it.

Workshop is with the Family Dynamics Institute, they claim a that 75% of the couples that go through there program/workshop stay married. The workshop is called A New Beginning (link). I can e-mail the brochure to anyone who wants it. Yes the weekend is scheduled and paid for. I believe they use some of Dr. Harley's methods, as they they use his book Fall in Love, Stay in Love as part of the workshop. You get a copy of the book as part of it, its actually FedExed to you after you register as you have to read certain sections as part of your homework before the weekend. You also get a copy of Dr. John Gottman's Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work.

Well the trust issue comes from the way I treated her this past year during my depression. We got into a fight back in May, because she wanted to go to a church service 6 hours away, because the head of the church was holding service there. For some reason or other I didn't want to go (I think we were tight on cash at the time). Right before she left to go with her parents, we got into a fight about it, and I told her "If you go, don't bother coming back!". Don't know why I even said it, but I called her a little while later and appologized. There was another time where I packed her bags and put them by the door, she had taken the day off work because she wasn't feeling well but didn't tell me because she thought I would get mad. So she put on her scrubs and went out right before I got home so I wouldn't know she took the day off. Unfortunately, I came and something was off. I had to call her to have her pick something up on her way home and she usually doesn't answer her cell at work so I call her work number and one of the other girls told me she had called in sick. Needless to say I was pissed and packed her bags, thinking she was out messing around.

These two incidents, plus short temper (short temper was caused by the depression, never had a problem with it before) are why she doesn't trust me. As well as the fact that every time we've been this situation we always say we're going to work on our marriage and then we just fall right back into the same routine so she's afraid that the same thing will happen. We've never been to a marriage counselor or anything before, so I'm hoping, praying this time will be different.

OK, so I've been trying to think of some ways to Plan A WW on our "date" nights. She comes over to the house on Monday, Friday and Sunday and we meet at church on Wednessday nights. Friday or Sunday are our "date" nights. SssssooOOOoOOoO.... I was thinking, because of my wife's cystic fibrosis she led a fairly sheltered life with her parents and never went to her high school prom. I was thinking, next week what I'll do is:

1. Leave work a little early on Thursday.
2. Pick up some balloons and single rose.
3. Tie the rose to the balloons with an invitation for Friday night.
4. Get her fancy dress and shoes out of the closet.
5. Head down to her hotel room and put the dress and shoes on the bed with the balloon, rose and invitation above it.
6. Rent a tux.
7. Rent a limo.
8. Friday night pick her up in the limo and take her out to a fancy restaraunt for dinner.
9. Have the living room set up prom style with champagne on ice and some nice slow dancing music, fireplace and candles.
10. After dinner, blind fold her and have the limo take us home.
11. Have a "prom", just the two of us in the living room.

Is it too much? I mean I used to do these "romantic" things all the time....Just haven't done them lately. Might have my daughter help set up the living room for me.

What kind of marriage?

Wife can't tell H she called in sick because H is a nut job.

WW called in sick without telling BH so she could go and bang an OM.

Probably a little of both.

Actually I believe her about being sick....She had pneumonia at the time and been trying to fight it at home. We ended up admitting her to the hospital for a week to fight off the infection.

So Saturday, WW asks me to go with her to get her oil changed and have her tires rotated and balanced 'cause her car has been shaking and she didn't want to sit around waiting for them to do the work. So I meet her at the garage we take the cars to and go have an early dinner. On the way to the restaraunt she tells me that she figures she'll stay in the hotel for a little while longer, but we can start moving her stuff back into the house the week before we go down for the marriage workshop and that she'll move back in when we get back from the workshop.

I asked her why she wanted to wait until then and she said she liked the way things were working right now. Where we get together a couple times a week and have a date night (just the two of us) on Friday nights. I told her the date nights and family time don't have to stop, I was wanting to make the date night a permanent thing.

She didn't really say anything and the subject changed shortly after. I guess this a good sign, don't really know. I'm still suspicious of her motives though.

Friday night we had a really good date. I won't into too much detail, but we both got a little drunk. When I brought her back to the hotel room, we were kissing goodbye and I guess I got I may have started to into it a little and she pushed me away saying "I don't think we're there yet.". I didn't respond to it and just left ('course in the back of my mind was "WTF, we're married.")

Anyway, there's my update for today.

Had an appointment with the MC yesterday, by myself and found out that I'm extremely passive-aggressive. Who knew????

Apparently my mom knew. Talking to her last night, she said the child phsycologist I saw when I was kid identified it then. She still has the letter.

So anyway MC wants to work on with me on becoming more assertive rather than passive-aggresive in our individual sessions. The funny part was, she said she's never had anyone answer yes to all the questions she asked, which put me on the extreme of both passiveness and aggressiveness. Guess I'm just really screwed up....

Tresmal, there is an interesting article here about passive-aggression.

Great article Fred. Thanks!

Arrggg...

Just when I thought things were starting to look up.....

I couple weeks ago I asked WW about her e-mail accounts (I knew she had a couple of them), specifically which ones she was using. She said the only one she had that she was using was the one from our ISP. At the time, I knew it was a lie. Today, she forwarded me an e-mail from a friend at church from her Hotmail account. Obviously she lied, because I know this one friend use to e-mail her on the ISP account. I used to have the password to for the hotmail account, so I tried logging in...guess what she changed it. Trust level just dropped down again. In a bad place again.

Had a couples session with the MC yesterday. The week before she asked us to each write 2 lists (really 3). List one was supposed to be what we needed/wanted from the marriage, list 2 was supposed to be the things we wanted to see change in ourselves and list 3 was to be things that we wanted to see change in our spouse.

Suprisingly, after handing the lists to the MC, she said our lists were almost identical (using different words, but pretty much the same). We then each picked 3 things from each other's needs list that we wanted more clarification on. After that MC told us those are the 3 things that we need to start working on. So, interestingly enough one of hers was "Not allow outside influences". This happened to be one of the ones I asked about, while I kind of new what it meant, she clarified that instead of talking to others about our problems and life she would talk to me instead.

Not sure if this is going to help, but we'll see. We each kept the other's list so we knew what each was working on. Problem is, I kind of forgot what I was supposed to work on.... Ooopsss... Guess I'll have to ask WW....

Anyway, I'm hoping things are starting to look up, but I still have a huge trust issue I'm dealing with. I find myself tempted to start snooping around again, but I've been able to restrain myself for the most part. I dropped off a card and rose in her hotel room the other day, when she wasn't there and walked right out of the room without a second thought of snooping around. I'm trying to trust her, but I'm not sure if I should right now.... Kinda sucks.

You have not been given all of her passwords.

Are you kidding me? You had the perfect opportunity to snoop and you gave her the respect due a faithful spouse??? tresmal, she's hiding an email account from you! What does that tell you?? My FWH has turned himself into a pretzel this past year, being o&h, totally transparent and accountable - he's the poster boy of remorseful FWH's. Do I check up on him and snoop? You'd better believe I do! And he knows I reserve the right to check anything I want to check for as long as I want to check it.

I know. I forgot about this e-mail and the other one. I think she just recently changed them. Though I haven't checked them since December......

True, yes I passed up the opportunity. However, I was also looking at covering my [censored] legally. Technically, since she's not living in the house snooping around her hotel room would be an invasion of privacy and might be considered breaking and entering. Which is kinda borderline, seeing she gave me a key to the room. But I didn't want to take that chance.

[quote=Tresmal
True, yes I passed up the opportunity. However, I was also looking at covering my [censored] legally. Technically, since she's not living in the house snooping around her hotel room would be an invasion of privacy and might be considered breaking and entering. Which is kinda borderline, seeing she gave me a key to the room. But I didn't want to take that chance. [/quote]

How would she know? Snooping can be done without pulling all the drawers out and throwing things around the room. And there's no breaking and entering if she gave you the key.

Another thing: my FWH kept text messages on his phone that were months old by D-Day. I asked him what he would have done if I'd picked it up and read them. He said he would have had to come clean, and he wondered if he subconsciously left them on there so I could catch him. Maybe that was one reason she gave you her key? Just a thought.

Promise us you won't throw away another opportunity like that.

Nope. Breaking and entering is burglary, and it requires you actually break something to enter. It's not even trespassing since you were invited. The fact that you were invited takes a key element out of any legal case against you.

So by her giving me a key to the room indicates that I was invited?

I'll try not too. My self esteem is so shot right now though. I don't know if I can handle another "D-day". She says she's trying, but I just don't feel she's being sincere. Maybe that's the devil's advocate in me, I have tendancy to look for the worst in everything. I dunno. I just feel like such an idiot right now.... I can barely keep myself together half the time. Even my DD can tell when I've had a bad day, I worked from home the other day and when she got home from school she just looked at me and said "Had a bad day?". I can't even hide my sadness from her.

Yes.

OK, so I've made the following decision. While we were at the MC last week for our couples session, WW mentioned that she wanted to move her stuff back into the house before we went to Nashville for the marriage workshop and that when we got back she would either stay in the house or get an apartment. I'm going to tell her when we go to the MC this week that she needs to make the decision as to whether she is going to stay in the house or get an apartment before we go the workshop. My thinking is that this whole thing is putting a lot of stress on my daughter and she really wants WW to come back home. If WW comes back home and then decides to get an apartment, it will take a couple days to get the apartment, mean while my DD will have gotten her hopes up that WW has returned and then will be emotionally destroyed if WW moves back out to an apartment.

So needless to say, I need to protect DD. So before next weekend, she will have to decide if she is going to move back in to the house or not and if so, she will need to write the NCL (I asked a week or so ago during a couples session and she refused). As much as I want her to come home I'm thinking this to be the best plan to move forward. I know she has stated that she has ended it with him, but without the NCL I don't trust that she has.

If there is NC and your WW is transparent and sends a NC letter that you approve and send, then let her move back before you go.

HAs your DD been told mom is cheating?

What marriage workshop are you going to for that weekend?

Who runs it?

She doesn't want to move in until after the workshop, she wants to start bringing her stuff home the week of the workshop. She refused to write the NCL, but says that she ended it with OM. I have my doubts she did, but I could be wrong. Should I require her to write the NCL before moving in or, do I take her word for it and just check up on her? I personally would feel better with the NCL written.

The work shop is A New Beginning, its run by the Family Dynamics Institute.

I have not told DD that WW had an affair. MC recommended against it. All I've told her is that WW and I are having some problems that we need to work out. WW is DD's step mom. I have custody of DD.

Dumb question, but what is meant by transparent? Right now I'm having troubles believing she is sincere about wanting to work on our marriage.

The NCL should be a minimum for her to move back in.

Right now, you hold all of the cards. Don't let her control how and if there will be R. That is up to you.

Figure out what you would really want her to do to R with you.

My minimums are, NC for LIFE, NCL, quit job, WANT to work on M, STD test and MC with the MB counselors. I have a much longer list for R to begin.

Transparent would be that she give you access to all cell phones, FB account, emails, etc. She needs to be completely OPEN to you and you to her(with exception to snooping).

I also have on my longer list that we would have a shared email addy, and I would be putting a keylogger on the computer that he would not delete and not use the access keyboard(which he did after I installed the first keylogger), VAR and GPS as well as changing phone numbers, etc. Your list might include the same things on my list but you may want to add more.

Funny you should say that, in our couples session last week, MC said almost the exact same thing, but she was talking about WW. I do want her to come back home, but at the same time I want at a minimum NCL and the transparency. MC says I don't have control whether she comes home or not. I've been the one fighting for our marriage. Back in November/December she wanted nothing to do with reconcilation, then just after Christmas she started to become wishy washy on the subject (after watching Fireproof) and doing a lot of talking. She finally made the decision to work on the marriage a few weeks ago, but I still think she's wishy washy on the whole thing. Plus she hasn't completely stated she wants to move back in, her comments were "I figured I would start moving my stuff back into the house the week of the workshop (next week). Then when we get back I'll either stay in the house or get an apartment." That's the part I'm having an issue with, because I don't want her moving her stuff in if she's just going to move back out.

Well, the way I see it MC was WRONG WRONG WRONG with regards to who holds all of the cards.
Your WW had the affair and it is up to you if you WANT to take her back and try to R. If your minimum is going to be that she write a NCL and be transparent then don't let her use your home as a free storage unit.

Don't be AFRAID that she won't want to come home. Be AFRAID that she WILL want to under HER terms and what that will do to you and your kids.


I will let the vets chime in, but that's my opinion.

That's what I'm afraid of. I caved in on this at the beginning of January, when she stayed at her parents over the Christmas/New Year's holiday. She told me she would only come back if I got her an apartment. I compromised on that and put her up in a hotel. I didn't want to put an apartment in my name, and then have her not pay the rent, skip out etc...

I have single session with MC on Wednessday, before our couples session. I've all ready e-mailed her my concerns, so I'll be talking to her about this again before we go into the couples session and bring up my terms of return.

She has to come home on your terms.

NC letter is a must.

Another must is that you stop lying to your DD. Kids can handle the truth. The truth protects them. They need to know that it's not them and not you.

All you are doing is teaching b example to your DD on how to lie, live in fear when you have done nothing wrong, and that when you have done nothing wrong you must live in embarrassment for a WS's actions.

Your MC is a quack.

Tresmal,

My W and I attended a 8 week course by Family Dynamics that is done locally by trained facilators. This coursed mostly used Harley's materials with some of theirs. Steve Harley was intimately familiar with them and had good things to say about them.

Good to hear, I know they use is Fall in Love, Stay in Love book as well as Gottman's The Seven principles for Making Marriage Work. I was doing a little more research yesterday on the workshop and it sounded like they use alot of Harely's principles. I'll let y'all know how it goes and if it's worth the money. 'Tis fairly expensive for the 3 day workshop ($1495.00) plus hotel.

Had a bit of a break down last night. For no reason really, just got really angry about everything and paced around the house yelling at a non-existant WW (she wasn't here, was at the hotel). Ended up having a few coctails and went to bed. I feel like complete crap now, drank too much too fast. Plus I'm not much of a drinker anyway (funny 'cause I use to be a bartender).

Think the thing I was most angry about, is the fact that she still has not shown any remorse for what she did. The comments she makes are selfish and as much as I want to tell her how selfish and hypocritical she is, I'm still working on Plan A. I think I just let things build up and I finally popped last night. Just glad she wasn't around to witness it.

Well actually had a good counseling session (if that's what you want to call it) today with the WW. MC really didn't say too much this time, my wife and I just talked about how things were, where they were going and my concerns of her plan to move back into the house. MC interjected a few times, but for the first time in a long time WW and I actually talked, no yelling or fighting, just really talking about how we each felt.

Needless to say she will be moving back into the house next week, but she will be staying in the guest room for the time being. This was actually my idea, though she brought it up as well. She is coming back to really work on the marriage, and for the first time since this all started I actually believed her.

So I guess we'll see how things go from here.

AWESOME! This is a major step, Tresmal. Just keep in mind that although she will be back under the same roof, she is going to have times of fog, anger, and overall waywardness.

But I'm delighted to read the news!

ITA with Fred.
A huge step.
Not the end of the bad times, mind you... but a HUGE step.
Congrats.

I agree it's a big step. First it help instill a little trust, not a lot mind you, but with her in the hotel I just felt like she was always hiding something from me and that she was just using me to get the rest of her surgery done. With her moving into the house, as well as some of the other things we talked about it makes me believe that she really does want to work on the marriage. Right now one of the biggest things we have to work on is the trust issues. But yeah, she still is in the fog and I realize that, so I'm just going to keep on with Plan A for now and hopefully this workshop next weekend will do a lot of good. Basically the workshop boils down to about 22 hours (almost 6 months) of marriage counseling in one weekend. I like the fact that they use a lot of Harley's concepts in the program as well. He just makes a lot of sense to me, WW on the other hand isn't much of a reader so getting her to read the books is kinda difficult as she gets bored with them to easily.

Anyway, I'll keep y'all updated on things are going. Thanks for all the support, you guys and gals have been great. The brutal honesty y'all have sometimes really helps. I'll be around often with updates and questions.

This won't work for everyone, Tresmal, but I'll toss it out there as a suggestion: The two of you sit down together for an hour or so (plan the time ahead, mutually) and then YOU READ THE BOOK ALOUD.

My WW used to like to have me read to her. She said I had a very nice, soothing voice (in my earlier years people told me I should be in radio. Hey, I have the face for it! ).

Not only will this get you both involved in the reading, but it also is shared time together -- UA, in MB terminology!

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I think that was the intent of the workshop, they sent us 1 copy each of Fall in Love Stay in Love and 7 Principles of Happy Marriage (can't remember the exact title). I figured their idea was that we read them together seeing they only gave us one copy. Kinda hard to do with her in the hotel, but once she moves back to the house, this is something I had planned on doing with HNHN and LB.

Well got back from the New Beginnings workshop @ 3am this morning. Overall the workshop was really good. Part lecture seminar, part "break out sessions", and part homework.

The lectures were nice, because while the speaker was giving the lecture it was a small enough group to keep the lectures interactive, it wasn't just him speaking he involved all the couples in the lecture. A lot of good information was presented, including a lot of Dr. Harley's and Gottman's ideas/principles.

I think the "break out sessions" were the biggest help. Basically we broke out into two groups of couples. They would have 4 - 5 questions posted in the back of the room and each person would get up and answer the questions. Questions ranged from "So far what do think was the most important lesson learned during the workshop?" to "What can you do now to make deposits in your spouse's love bank?" to "How committed are you now to saving your marriage?".

During the entire weekend they stressed that anything you say is to be about you, not your spouse. It was nice because it kind of forced you to into yourself and what you could do to improve your marriage.

The best part was that you were able to see that your not alone, that there are others going through exactly the same thing you were. Now not all the couples were dealing with infidelity, but it was surprising that many were and that age had nothing to do with a marriage in trouble.

Over the weekend not, only did I see a change in my wife and myself, but other couples made dramatic changes. I can't go into details, because everything is confidential, but there was one couple where one spouse on day one made it very clear that they wanted nothing to do with the marriage any more, by the end of the weekend, that spouse had done almost a complete 180 (I'd say probably 150), but the change in attitude was amazing.

I think the workshop was worth every penny and would reccommend it to anyone who's marriage is in crisis, it will show you that the problems aren't all one sided, and how you can rebuild. The tools provided are great and to be used continuously after the workshop. I'll keep you posted as we begin to use these tools in our marriage. If any one wants has any questions, please feel free to PM, e-mail or drop a post in this thread, I'd be happy to answer any questions.

Having a really bad day today. I don't know why, I just feel like she'll never let go of OM. WW won't open up to me and I feel like she's not even trying to save our marriage. I feel like the only reason she moved back into the house, was because she was pressured to do so.

I'm so confused, because I don't want to let my marriage go, but at the same time I don't want to live like this either.

I liked it better when I was depressed and was just numb. I don't want all these emotions anymore. I can't handle it.

OK, looking for some confirmation here I guess....

WW and I were talking the other night, and she came out and said "I love you as a person, I love you as a friend, but I just don't love you as a husband."

Fog talk right?

Anyway, she also mentioned that she wanted her "Mommy", that it wasn't the same talking to her on the phone. So without a thinking about it I called her mom, with WW standing there, and asked if she could come up here for a week or two, that I would pay for her plane ticket. I'm not so sure this was a good idea, her mom and I really never have gotten along and she was against us getting married in the first place. We made peace over the Christmas holiday, at least I tried and she appeared to be sincere about letting the past be the past. The problem is, is she rarely gives good advice, especially when it comes to me. I was texting my brother in law yesterday, and he seemed to agree with that.

Right now, my brother in law is one of my biggest supporters as he is a recently recovering WH. He's made the big decision to to own up to his mistakes and return to his marriage, and I'm very proud of him for making that choice. He's a priest in our church (not my congregation as he lives in another state and currently on sebaticle for obvious reasons) and he talks to both me and WW via text messaging all the time.

The problem I've come to realize over the last day or two, is that WW won't let go of the anger that she has for some of the things I've done over the last year. I don't think we can get anywhere until she lets go of the anger.

Just a couple things she's angry about:
- Back in May there was a church service about 8 hours away that she wanted to go to. I had every intention of going, but as always I would say that we weren't going, but get the tickets and surprise her a day or two before. Well she kept nagging me about going, which got me angrier and angrier. Then her parents came up and were going to go, so she was going to with them. The morning they left, she started nagging me again about going with them, at the time I was going to go, but the nagging got to me and I decided I didn't want to go and turned into a really heated argument and I told her "If you go don't come back." I called her about 20 minutes later and appologized and said I didn't mean it.

- A couple weeks later, she was sick and didn't go to work, but pretended to go so that she wouldn't have to tell me. So I packed her bags and put them by the door.

- Then of course there was this most recent EA, where I blew up, threw her phone at the wall (shattering into several pieces) and threw some fake divorce papers at her.

I can understand her being angry with all this, but I have gone through a lot of changes in the last few months that she admits she sees. But for some reason she just can't let go of the anger she has about these incidents. I'm still plan A'ing her, but it's so hard to keep a smile on my face when I'm around her now.

She got upset at our counseling session this week because she said she liked living in the hotel because she was independant. I made the comment, that what she experienced was an illusion of independance because she was still relying on me financially and for medical insurance. The MC agreed with me and she just got really upset because reality hit her, so now she's mad at because I "twisted" her words around.

She's still in the house, living in the guest room. But she came into my room at like 4am yesterday, because she was having some cramps/charlie horses in her feet and legs that was causing her excruciating pain. I spent the next hour massaging the kinks outs out of her legs and feet. I'm not really sure how to take the fact that she came to me when she was in pain. I'm not sure what to think of this.

Anyway, I know long post. Sorry, I'm just in a bit of a bad place today. Y'all are great and I really appreciate your advice and support.

I was wondering, about 5 months ago I was having problems with out marriage and was angry with WW, kind of like she is angry with me now. I was finally able to get over my anger by doing the following:

1. Taking an inventory of positive attributes of our marriage.
2. Taking an inventory of positive attributes about WW.
3. After looking at my inventory I decided to start thinking positive about my marriage and our future together.

Once I took those steps, the anger began to subside (slowly, but it did subside). Would doing this again with WW help her to get over her anger or would be a waste of time, if she is still in withdrawl and foggy?

Well got together with one of our priests for coffee on Saturday. Had a nice long talk about how things were going with WW. He's very supportive, but he asked me what her committment was to our marriage, and honestly I couldn't tell him.

Anyway Sunday after church he started talking to WW, just some general talk, "How are you doing?" stuff, a few minutes later I noticed they were gone and she was talking to him in the Sacristy (door was open). They spent about 45 minutes talking. Then we went home. On the way home I stopped at the store to pick up a couple things we had forgotten the day before, when I get back in the car she starts to give me a hard time about getting DD's softball equipment. Basically yelling at me for no reason. Don't know if her attitude had anything to do with her conversation with our priest or not. Got home and shortly after things seemed to calm down and she was actually really nice for the rest of the day.

Hell, I don't know what's going on anymore. One minute things seem like they're going OK, the next [censored] hits the fan.

Anyway her Mom is flying in tomorrow night, soooOoOoooo... I'm bracing myself for more crap to hit the fan. It's so hard sometimes to keep a smile on my face at home now.

It's called a roller coaster for a reason...

I used to like roller coasters....Now I'm not so sure .

Praying that things will turn around soon.

OK so her Mom got here Tuesday night. We were supposed to have an appointment with the MC at 11am and she didn't show. I tried calling and got no answer. Then her mom calls me a few minutes later to telling me that she's still asleep and she can't wake her up. Come to find out her blood sugars crashed (she has diabetes related to her Cystic Fibrosis) and she was unresponsive. So I rushed home, by the time I got there she was fine, mom had pumped her with sugar and got her blood sugars back up. Her blood sugars crashed because she miscalculated how much insulin to take the night before.

Later on in the day they tell me that now her Dad is coming up, because he is worried about WW. For some reason I just don't buy it. I think he's coming up so that they can drive back to OKC together. He's never wanted either one of them to drive long distances by themselves. Plus DD has spring break coming up, and will be visiting her biological Mom. WW doesn't want to hurt DD, so I think she's planning on leaving while DD is gone for the week.

I dunno what else I can do. She told me last Tuesday that she loves me as a person, loves me as a friend, but doesn't love me as a husband. Pretty sure at this point she has no intention of staying in our marriage, there just doesn't seem to be any committment anymore.

OK, so yesterday WW quit her job. Her plan was to go back to Oklahoma with her parents and to live with one of her friends back there. Her reasoning is that because of all the stress she's under living back in the house, her health is detiorating and she wants space until she regains her health. I'm not really sure what stress she is under as I have busted my [censored] trying to make our home a happy place, yet there is still alot of tension between us. It's hard to talk to her sometimes, because when we start to talk about our problems she blows up. I do my best to stay away from the LB's and the 4 horseman, which she knows about from the weekend workshop, but she makes no use of them.

The A is over, though I know she still hasn't really gotten over OM either.

I talked with both her parents last night and neither hold any ill will towards me. Both are against her moving back, her father more so than her mother (she's a little torn). Her father agrees that if she moves back to OK, I shouldn't have to support her financially with the exception of keep her on my medical insurance (something I think I would have to do anyway until a divorce is finalized).

So we told her and explained to her that her car payment, insurance, cell phone, car gas, etc. would be her responsibility. She has no job lined up in OK, and doesn't plan on getting one until her health improves. WW says she's not asking for a divorce but space, so that she can work through some of her personal issues.

Told her that if she stayed and worked on the marriage I would continue to support her.

So my question is, if she moves back to OK do I continue with Plan A or do I go to Plan B? I'm kind of torn here as I do love her and I do want to reconcile our marriage but at the same time, I need to move on with my life with or without her. I feel like her moving to OK is her running away from our problems rather than facing them. She doesn't feel this way, she sees it as her getting space.

Well, she's out the door today. Heading back to OK with her parents. Told her she's responsible for her car payment, insurance, medical bills (leaving her on the insurance), and got her cell phone back to give to DD.

Made the last couple days as pleasant as I could in the house (Plan A). When I left for work this morning and said good bye, I told her "I love you." Her response was "I'm doing this because I do love you, but I just have to find it again." Doesn't really make much sense to me, but what ever.

Her Dad is going to have her see a psychologist through his church (she can 6 sessions for free). Said she's going to come back after she's gone through the "program". Don't really believe her and just preparing myself that she's not going to come back. She didn't take all of her stuff, so I'm probably going to just pack up what's left next weekend and put it in the basement. Basically she has till May 1st to return, if she doesn't then I'm going to have it shipped to her at her expense.

Need to find an attorney today to make sure I'm not going to be shooting myself in the foot as far as what I need to do legally to provide for her. I don't think making her pay her own bills is asking too much, or against the law (so to speak), but I need to CMA as I have a sizeable trust fund that I don't want her to get a hold of. According to the attorney that managed the fund, she shouldn't be able to touch it, but he doesn't practice in my state and said I should confirm with an attorney in my state.

Still not sure if I should go to plan B at this point as she seems somewhat willing to work on our marriage. But at the same time, I feel like she doesn't want to, so I've been flip flopping on the plan B issue all weekend.

Plan A is about continuously meeting her needs. Do not expect anything back at this stage. Reject any future attempt at contact with any OM. Use exposure and express disgust should this happen.

Limit interaction but always be positive during these events. Do not get dragged into fruitless discussion. Pray for herself as well as for you.

Damn, I just feel so stupid now. I let my guard down after the marriage builders weekend and she moved back into the house.

Hindsight is 20/20 like they say. She left yesterday to go back to OKC. I had been letting her use my laptop (work laptop that I never use) at night so she could listen to music to help her go to sleep. Checked it last night and she deleted all the internet history...Covering up tracks I guess.

Then it dawned on me, we have a house phone specifically for the alarm system we never give out the number because we don't answer the phone. I use to have the ringers turned off, but a while back I turned them back on (I forget why). But Saturday, she got a text message from a friend at church (yes I saw the text), and she was sitting in the bedroom watching the house phone. When I asked her why, she said "XXXXX is calling me on the house phone and the isn't the ringer off?". I said no, but then I never heard the phone ring, and she came down and said she was going to XXXXX's house to help out with something for the youth at our church.

DUH, I'm such a dumb [censored], she turned the ringers off on the phone's so I wouldn't hear the phone ring at night when she went into her room. How f'in stupid could I be.

She called last night to let me know they got the hotel (half way to OKC). I was so angry, but I bit my tongue and didn't say anything to her. Partly because I don't want her to be upset while driving another 8 hours today.

Can't decide if I'm going to confront her tonight or just go to Plan B. Funny for the first time in a couple weeks, when I got off the phone with her I said "I love you" and she recipocated. This is the first time in two weeks she's done that after telling me that she feels horrible for saying it because she doesn't feel it. Guess maybe some guilt is starting to set in, or she's just playing it up for the time being (she was nice as could be Saturday night, all day Sunday and yesterday morning). Guess she just wanted to leave on my good side.

Oh, yeah and the best part of all this is she left me a note, saying "Remember I do love you deep down. We'll talk all the time. Thankyou for letting me do this.". I didn't let her do anything, she made this choice on her own, and I tried to stop her, but realized I can't control her.

I packed up all the pictures of her and her family, and put away anything that reminds me of her, except her shot glass collection (it was getting late, and I ran out newspaper). Just hurts too much to be reminded of her. I took my ring off too, I feel naked without it.

Sorry for the long post, but I needed to vent.

I'm lost again.....

Monday night WW called to let me know that she got to the hotel. Tuesday night she called to let me know she got to OKC ok. Both nights I ended the conversation with "I love you." and she reciprocated with "I love you too.". Then last night I called her and again ended the converstation with "I love you.", all I got back was a deep sigh and "Good night, I'll talk to you tomorrow."

I do still lover her but I feel like every time I talked to her now, I feel the withdrawls from the bank. I don't want to lose the love that I have for her, in the event that her counseling helps and she does come back home.

Part of me is telling me to go to plan B, so I can maintain the love I have for her. But there's a part of me that doesn't think I can go through with it.

I think I'm going to try keeping the long distance plan A going for a few more days...but it hurts like hell sometimes. I do pray every day for WW to come around, that God will somehow show her the way back to our marriage and give me the strength to endure.

Found a message WW sent to one of her friends the other day.

"I made it to OKC today. Now its time to take back control of my life and decide whether he's worth it or not."

Whether, I'm worth it?!?!? WTF???

I guess the question I need to decide is whether or not she is worth it? I still love her, but sometimes I wonder if that's worth fighting for.

T,
Prayers are good keep praying.

The comments about whether you are worth it are just fog talk. Ignore it. All wayards feel justified, some are some aren't.

Like I keep telling everyone here because I felt the same way myself- (powerless) Get a plan, execute your plan per your timetables and don't compromise your plan's conditions for recovery. And you know what? If your plan is doormat and be anything anytime for her anywhere thats OK. Its your plan. We can only tell you the probably outcomes and point out the MBer methods.

IMHO, the best you can do is NO relationship talk, NO ILUVUs, NO talk about A, just a great plan A if thats your plan and a date to reevaluate progress.

WW could be saying is OM worth it.

Thought about that too, but I doubt it.

Decided not to call her last night. She instead started IM'ing me when I got home from a company event and got on the computer. Just basic chit chat, "How was your day." Type stuff. Didn't talk too much and as suggested, I left out the "I love you" when I went to bed.

I'm taking the approach of preparing for the worst (Big D) and hoping for the best now. I don't think this separation (with 1000 miles) between us, is going to help the situation any. Guess time will tell.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying she's in contact with OM?
If so, I'd EXPOSE to everyone and go to plan B with a very clear Plan B letter (get input here). I'd copy her parents on the Plan B letter too because it sounds like they are your allies and know she's messing up and want things to work out between you two.

Do you think her move to OKC was to get away from OM or is that where he lives? Sorry, I can't remember for sure.

Don't know for sure if she is still in contact with OM at this point. Just suspicion based on her activities.
I have exposed to everyone and yes her parent's are my allies in a sense. She didn't move to OKC to get away from OM or to be with OM, he lives in CT. I wrote an updated plan B letter and I'm reviewing and making changes to it still before I send it. Also waiting for my brother in law to contact me, he's supposed to be talking to her today or tomorrow, he's an ally in this as well.

Well, snoop your hiney off 'cause it sure does look suspicious.

I do suggest sending her parents a copy of the Plan B so they know it's a love letter and that she has a way back home. They sound like the kind of people that will call her out if she paints things differently than they really are.

And if you find she's been in contact, that would explain her inability to "love you in *that* way". If you find out she's been in contact I'd re-expose. Shine a great big ol' bright light on it.

Hard to snoop with her 1000 miles away, but I'm working with what I can. If I do find out she is still in contact with OM, I've got a doosey of a way to expose to OM's parents again......Had WW lieave her cell phone for DD before leaving, made sure the phone was clean before giving it to her, but WW, forgot that picture mail is stored on the Sprint's servers as well and you can access it online. I couldn't do it before, because they send you a text message with a confirmation number and i couldn't get a hold of her phone. Found some, lets say unappropriate pictures of OM, that I'm sure his parents would be pissed about.

But yeah, I intended on sending a copy to her parents too.

And before you ask, she did not send him any "inappropriate" pictures. At least none that I could find stored on the Sprint server.

Wow.
Hope she has the sense not to renew contact.

I know it's hard (impossible?) from a distance. Can you access her email accounts or phone records remotely? Or watch her bank charges?

I can watch some of her e-mail accounts, there's at least one that I can't access. Her checking account I can't monitor, but I can monitor all but one of her credit cards. Can't monitor her cell phone records, 'cause I made her leave the cell phone and she's been using her mom's (guess they could monitor it, but I think she's smart enough not to use it). No way to monitor the house phone down there.

Well DD is off to Washington, DC for her 8th grade trip today. Get's back on Friday and then goes to her mom's for spring break on Saturday. Which means 2 weeks of being in the house alone. Not sure I'm ready for this....

I rewrote my plan B letter and sent it to my brother in law (yes I trust him, he's a priest in our church and I asked him to look at it in confidence). His only comment was that he wasn't sure that breaking off contact with WW was the right thing to do. He mentioned that he had told WW earlier that day, that we need to talk more. While I agree we need to talk, I find myself losing the love that I have for her each time. There's been a few days lately that I don't even want to talk to her, not that I'm angry I just don't feel like it.

I made a decision last week that I was going to move on with my life, with or without her. I think subconciously I'm moving on without her, even though she says she's coming back on the 1st of May, at least that's what she said when she left.

Other problem is that I'm finding myself attracted to another woman. Probably because she's showed me some compassion about the situation, but I really don't talk to her that often. Only been a couple times. I know that I won't act on the attraction, I have kinda high morals and can't see myself (keep telling myself I can't) taking the same path as WW. At the same time I try to rationalize with myself, that it would be OK, because WW has essentially left the marriage and we're now separated (though not legally). Just curious has this happened to anyone else? What do you do? I'm implementing EPs for myself in order to not let the attraction go any further than it has. I also know that I'm not ready for any kind of relationship (physical or emotional).

Been there and trust me it is hell on earth.

You are smart to realize how close the slippery slope is but I don't think you realize you are already sliding down it. Why does this woman know about problems in your marriage? Unless she is a person of influence over your wife that you exposed to, she should not know. People should never air their marital problems to anyone of the opposite gender. Ever.

Quit talking to her.

Was having a bad day back in January, had gone out to "get some fresh air" and walked by her on the way back in. She could see in my face that something was wrong and asked if I was OK. Said no, and went back to my desk. She IM'd me later (yeah we have an IM service at work) asking me again if I was OK, and I told her what was going on. Couple weeks later she sent out a mass e-mail for a going away party for one of our co-workers, it happened to be the weekend we went to Nashivile for the marriage workshop, so I e-mailed her back letting her know that I wouldn't be able to make it and why. Saw her again at an aftwer work, work function, talked briefly and then "ran for the hills" so to speak.

Really don't have to worry about the whole "working together" thing as she works in a building on the other side of the city from me. She rarely comes over to our building, once every couple months and we really have no contact and intend to keep it that way.

While I somewhat agree that opposite gender should not know about marital problems. I have always tended to have more female friends than male. Don't know why, I just do. I like to think that I have high morals and integrity, and I would never go down that road. Which is why, I'm kinda posting here. Have to be honest with myself. As far as the honesty goes though, do I tell WW? I mean nothing has happened and nothing will, but part of me wants to be honest with her and tell her that I'm starting the process of moving on.

Weird, brother in law sent me a text saying "She told me she still loves you."

That's all nice and good, but why can she tell him, but not me?

Quit worrying about what she says.
She's unreliable.
Focus on your Plan A.

Good point.....

IM, email, and person-to-person chatting is no contact?
She knows you are having marital problems and that is no contact?
You are lying to yourself.


You start the process of moving on by filing for D.

You can be honest with your wife by going into plan B and sending her a letter explaining that your love for her is almost gone, that you're trying to protect the little bit that's left, and what she must do before you will consider reconciliation with her.

Hi Tresmal,

I don't know that I've ever posted to you before but this just caught my attention. Perhaps you should examine your motives for wanting to share this with WW. If it's to "get her attention" then IMO, you're playing with fire. IMO, that's the equivalent of someone trying to guilt their WS into coming back. It rarely works.

Oh, and BTW, you're playing with fire anyway by having any personal discussions about your marriage with another woman. That's a huge no no and can't possibly lead to anything good. If you want to "move on" with your life, then do it right. Divorce your WW and THEN preferably after a year or so when you've had time to heal, begin to think about another relationship.

There is no good reason/excuse to be privately discussing your marriage with another woman.

No not kidding myself. Only realized the attraction the other night, hence the reason "I ran for the hills".


Ohio, have to be separated for 1 year before you can file for divorce, there are some extenuating circumstances to that law, drunkeness, drug use, physical abuse, adultery. Not sure if an emotional affair would be considered adultery in a court of law though. Talking to an attorney next week to get my ducks in a row if we do end up going down the D path. Can file for disolution of the marriage, but then we both have to agree on the terms of the divorce....don't know if that will happen or not.

Don't really know what my motives are, other than being open and honest with her. Really didn't think of trying to guilt her. I all ready know that making her feel guilty just makes her angry. Not that I've intentionally made her feel guilty, except when talking about DD.

I can understand why I shouldn't be talking to another woman about my marital problems. That's basically what got my WW where she is now. Also the reason why, "ran for the hills" the other day. I recognized what was happening, probably from everything I've read on this site and the books, and didn't want it to go any further. Hence I have no contact with her.

Tresmal, please listen.

I'm just a little more than a month away from being able to file a final decree of divorce.

There have been a few women I have found attractive during the time WW and I have been separated (with NO CONTACT between us), and I have resisted any urge to "get to know them better."

Not only am I still a legally married man, but I'm also a very "wounded" man at that, and it would be unkind (to say the least) to inflict my current state of mind on someone else. To do so would be very much like what I imagine WW and OM did to one another. I shudder to think I could be lumped into the same category.

The way I look at it is that if any of these women are supposed to be in my future, they will still be there when my time to get back into the "dating pool" arrives. In the mean time, I am focusing on work, taking some classes, doing some travel, and learning how to be a whole, healthy person without someone else being part of who defines me.

Thanks Fred. Believe me, I'm of the same thinking. I know that I am still married and I would never do anything to break those vows. I was just explaining that there was an attraction to this other woman, but that I made the decision to not explore it any further. I realized it when I saw her last week, we talked briefly (there was someone else there, actually alot of someone elses), and I realized all of a sudden that there was some minute attraction (nothing strong mind you). It was then I excused myself from the conversation and went and sat down with some other co-workers (male). I know I am in no state of mind to persue any kind of relationship right now. I'm still fighting for my marriage (though I feel like I'm losing). Guess I was just asking the question if anyone else had been there.

On another note.... She just texted me a little while ago asking if what my mother thought of her. As nicely as I could I told her that I can't speak for my mom, as I never asked her how she felt. If she wanted to know, then call and ask. I know, I know. Should have avoided the question all together. I can't seem to stop myself from answering her questions as truthful as I can, or inquiring why she's asking. I'm starting to think more and more it's time for plan B, 'cause almost every time I talk to her I ended hurting myself somehow (emotionally, not physically). I'm starting to tell myself things like "I can't do this anymore." and "I'm tired of it all.". Sometimes I just don't feel like it's worth fighting for my marriage anymore, though at the same time I know if I continue fighting for my marriage and do it right this time, then things will be better than ever..... I'm just soo tired though.

Had to bite my tongue last night, almost made it bleed.....

WW says "My decisions are being made solely on me and how I feel."

Sooooo wanted to tell her how selfish that sounded, but I didn't. Just moved on...

Funny she was pissed at me yesterday, because I told her when she left that I would not be able to support her financially and that she would be responsible for her car payment and some other bills that are hers alone. She got her last paycheck, and it was nearly what she thought it was going to be, so she came up with this story, saying the only reason I wasn't making her car payment, was because I wanted her to that she needed me financially.

In a sense, she kinda of right as I know that is one of the EN's. But in reality, I can't afford it, plus why would I support her for walking out on our marriage? Not being a door mat anymore. She wanted 2 months to figure out what she wanted, screw that, it shouldn't take 2 months. Either you love me or you don't. If you do, you come back to the marriage and we fix our problems, if you don't then go our separate ways.

This says it all. You do not have to finance her A. Financing your M is another story. She has to realize that she can't have everything flow her way. It's called reality.

HERE!!! HERE!!!

That's what I've been trying to tell her. She just won't listen.

Tresmal,
Let me see if I can recap your sitch... After a year of not meeting her EN's due to your state of depression your ww had or is having an EA with a 19 yr old kid in another state with whom (its probable) she has never met face to face. She moved out.

Then over the last few months she has been having severe medical problems and has a chronic medical condition and due to all the stress she has chosen to seek some refuge with her parents.

Is that about it? If so please explain again why are you contemplating divorce? She isn't in another man's apartment right? She isn't in the 19 yr olds state even right?

I just don't see the reason for not doing a great plan A for the woman whom you married and promised to be with through thick and thin. But maybe I forgot some of your story?

All right, time to go to Plan B I guess.

Reasoning....

1. I don't believe she has broken off contact (still has him on facebook and AIM)
2. Believe she was talking to him on the house phone after I went to sleep at night, when she was still in the house.
3. OM is in college and it's spring break.
4. She told me last night that she moved into her parent's house, though her parents are in the transition of moving into a condo and not living at the house. Her reasoning, her friends daughter got sick and her doctor told her to stay out of the house for 48 hours (WW has cystic fibrosis). Yet she says she not moving back to her friend's until Saturday. Just too much of a coincidence here.

Trying to get a hold of her Dad now to let him know what's going on, he's a very devout catholic and has been on my side this entire time. Going to ask him to stay at the house with her. He told me before they left that if OM came he would put him on a plane right back to CT.

Correct.


Partially correct. She is not staying with her parents, she's been staying at a friends house down there who has supported relationship with OM.


Not really sure I'm contemplating divorce, just covering my a$$ in case it goes that route. She's not in OM's apartment, but I believe he is on his way down there for a few days (see previous post). OM lives in CT she is in OK.


I have been trying to Plan A her, but she thinks I'm smothering her when in reality I holding back. I talk to her almost every day, either via IM or on the phone, but the conversations are short because I'm staying away from relationship talk. I don't know what to talk about with her other than asking her how her day is going, talking about DD and my day.

Talk about a book you're reading, an old song you heard on the radio, a funny thing you saw while playing in the park with your kid, about what you cooked for dinner and how successful (or not) the effort was. Ask her what she thinks about you planting tulips in a certain spot, or painting the kitchen and what color/theme she'd like. Ask if they have ladybug infestations this time of year in OK, if the trees are blooming, what her favorite flower is and why, what is her favorite season, her favorite seafood.

You can do an internet search for "conversation starters" and come up with a million ideas.

She thinks you're smothering her because she's still in contact with OM. Ignore what she says. Focus on your Plan A until you feel your love starting to die, then go immediately into Plan B.


Good job on calling her Dad. I bet she won't appreciate a chaperone! hahahaha

Double post. Go me.

Texted her brother, he's going to talk to her. He's in AR so he can't go chaperone, but at least he might be able to put her on the right path.

Heh, I've tried some of that and she just brushes it off... Like, I asked her about painting the halls in the house a different color. She gave me a strange look and said "ummm...OK, I don't know what color to paint them. It doesn't matter to me.". Talking to her is like pulling teeth, I ask questions and she gives me short one sentence answers. Never goes into details about anything. Won't open up to me in any way (understandable), but even the simplest of subjects she won't really talk to me about.

Let me guess most of what she says is Whatever, I dont care, yeah, no, your smothering me, or your just acting jealous. Does it often sound like you are the dad talking to a teenage girl?

She is trying not to like you, by blocking you. This is totally expected. I have no idea how long this block happens, but you just have to ignore it and stick with your plan. How long do you think you can put up with this block?

Lol....That's it exactly, I was talking to my mom the other day and I told her I feel like I'm talking to DD. I know she's trying not to "like" me. I've seen her fighting it for the last couple months when we've gone out on dates or she comes over to the house. It's different now, because I don't see her anymore with her in OK now. I do know she told her brother that she still loves me, but she won't say it to me. She keeps putting up the walls.

Honestly I'm not sure how much longer I can put up with the blocking. It's starting to take a toll on the preverbial love bank, which by the way she thinks is a stupid idea (no surprise there). I think it's a little corny too, but it is a good representation of the concept. I'm seriously starting to consider Plan B, before anything else is lost

Tres,
I guess this is kinda my point. Its one thing if 19 yr old from CT shows up to visit her in OK. Of course snoop and confirm this.

But let me ask you what is the worst you have had to endure from your ww?? She moved out and talked to OM on phone and FB?

Over 6 months, my fww was jumping OM every chance she could while I was working 8-5. . But thats my grief, back to you

What is she doing that is sooo terrible that she deserves desertion, plan B and divorce?

And as I said before if you have reached the end of your emotional rope by all means stick to your plan your timetables and next step BUT as it was said before you are still married, you still want to uphold your vows so why not continue to do a great plan A? Many times I have advised BSs to treat a WS as sick and in need of care, love and patience. In your case ww is really sick (besides other things) so maybe you can find some patience for your lost wife.

Something else to remember is that an unhappy ww cannot see any other options besides what society in general gives us which is seperation and divorce. You need to give her another choice: "Spouse, I have been learning about a new program on how to have a great marriage. Would you look at it with me?" A great plan A is necessary for this to work so she can see you, your home and a new better marriage as a soft place to land.

Nowhere else could I have ever found the strength to make it thru my hell time except for the inspiration from God's word (patience, grace, forgiveness, and love) and Dr. Harley (how to love). Those things provided me the with the alternative actions I needed. Society, friends, family were all saying get out, don't suffer anymore, don't let her do this to you, etc.

When your ww looks around at her options of continuing an (historically) unsatisfying marriage or making a change, she wants the change. But she can only see one route to making that change which is seperation, divorce, new relationship w/OM, maybe new marriage. See she wants the end result: a new better great marriage. But she can't see the program that you know about (MBers) that will take the place of sep, D, NR w/OM, and ultimately lead to new great marriage with you. Give her the alternative. Demonstrate it to her for her with a great plan A. Be inspired to be great. Hard road yes but big rewards for you and her and family.

Talked to her, he's not coming down. Just having trust issues, and her vagueness and secrecy about things just makes my mind wander into the bad places. Her brother also asked her, and believes her due to other things she said (don't know what she said, but I trust him).


That and she's told me she doesn't love me anymore (though this changes from day to day), that she's in love with OM. She's not sure if we can fix our marriage. She can't get over some of the things I've done. But the real thing here is that she has changed, 6 months ago before OM, she would have been more than willing to take the time to work on our marriage, now she's walking away from it.


Well she deserted me, I'm not deserting her. Plan B, well I'm getting to my emotional breaking point. I feel like I'm losing the love that I have for her. The last few days, I've been kinda numb so to speak and I'm not sure that's healthy for me. Divorce, I don't really believe in divorce. However, she has brought it up on a few occassions, so while I don't believe in, if she files, I can't stop it. So, I'm covering my [censored] as much as possible if this heads down the divorce path. i.e. Making sure I'm not doing anything that would be deemed as abandonment, protecting my personal property (i.e. trust fund).


Agree, I'm still married and I intend to uphold the vows I took. Like I said before I don't believe in divorce. Continuing the Plan A is difficult at times, as I'm sure you all know. I'm doing my best, but I've always tended to be a fairly closed off person, I'm working on it, but really getting close to her is difficult when she's pushing me away and I'm being careful about what I say/do.


Tried the whole program thing, even took her down to a marriage workshop by Family Dynamics, who use Dr. Harley's concepts. Bought DR. Harley's books too, but she wants nothing to do with them, "I don't believe in any of that crap." she says.


I'm in the same boat. This site has been a great help. I've also taken new look at faith life and found new life there as well. I've been praying, reading the bible, going to church more often and talking with my priest.


I've made so many change over the last several months. Changes that she admits she's seen and likes. Said this while talking to our priest a couple weeks ago. But the priest and her used the following analogy, we're two cars going down the road, I'm doing 90MPH but she's only doing 5MPH as far as fixing our marriage. She's not ready to put her foot down on the gas, and I'm having a hard time putting on the breaks. Think its patience thing, I'm so ready to start a new life with WW and I want it to start now, but she doesn't and it kinda hard for me.



[/quote]

Its hard for her to work on a marriage while she is still having an Affair. If you don't beleive in divorce then I guess you'll have to muster up and wait the affair out. It does get tough, wears you thin, and you begin to question if it is really worth it. Someday she may want to work on the marriage as much as you, but you still have to work on your own time tables here, not hers.

In the meantime at least you know that you are changing to be a better person. This dung will fertilize you! A refiners fire I guess.

Did you expose to OM's parents?

My kids are older than that and if I got a call from a distraught person saying my kid was having an affair with their spouse I'd tear them up one side and down the other.

Yes, OM's parents are fully aware and were appalled. Very Catholic family. Dad is a teacher at the Catholic school their son went to (which is how I found his parents coincidentally). Was real happy that I e-mailed him at his work e-mail, because they monitor their e-mail and the subject was just ummmmm....not christian.

The told him that if he contacted WW again, they would pull him out of school. I thought about calling them again after I found out he called WW to tell her that I talked to his parents. I probably should have, but WW was pissed about it and I didn't see any need to seeing she had, at the time, supposedly broken it off with him.

I still have some ammunition for his parents if I'm feeling really mean or if it starts up again and I can prove it.

Well if she is saying NC, and if he stands to lose his education, I say Plan A, full steam ahead. She's just in withdrawal. You have everything going for you and nothing to lose.

Good job, by the way, on sleuthing out his parents and contacting them. That's pretty happy news that they're devout Catholics and have threatened their son w/pulling him out of school.

Keep your head down, keep snooping, and if you see one smidge of contact expose all over again. You have WW's family supporting you, OM's family supporting you... you are pretty much in an ideal situation as far as being a BS goes. Still sucks, though, don't it?

Blows chunks......

Yeah, took me almost 3 weeks to find his parents. Got mom's name from his cell number from intellius. Intellius didn't pan out, had old information. Went to his face book page and found out what high school he went to and found the schools web site. Looked for alumni information and found a picuture his graduating class with alumni Dad's. Got Dad's first name. Did a search looking for Dad's name and alumni information, and just happened to point me to his school web page, where it had his e-mail address. It was almost pure luck that I found it. Sent him an e-mail, and he and his wife called me a couple days later.

And the crowd goes wild.
That was super detective work on your part.

Thanks, told my Mom how I found them and she asked me to look for an old friend of hers from high school.... no luck yet.

Impressive !

Tresmal, have you considered the possibility that there might be another OM involved?

Yuppers I have. I'm pretty good with the snooping and haven't found any evidence of another OM. That doesn't mean there isn't one. However, I've been in pretty constant communitcation with my brother in law, who's also in communication with WW on a regular basis, and he's sounds pretty confident that our marriage isn't over yet. Keep in mind he is a priest in our church, so he's bound by confidentiality so he can't go into details of what she's told him and vice versa he can't tell her what I've told him. I trust him both as a brother and priest, add onto that he's a recovering WH who's seen the light of his mistakes. I know he's read HNHN and the 5 Languages of Love and a few other books and has been putting those principles to use in his marriage with a lot of success.

I'm just having trust issues, and I know that it will be a while before I can build that trust up again. She also has trust issues with me, she's afraid to tell me things because she thinks I'll get angry and blow up. Simple things, like when she gets sick. We talked last night and basically made the point, that I wasn't going to get angry with her and blow up just because she's sick. Though I probably will get angry if she lies about it. So hopefully, she'll start being a little more open now. She seemed to be last night. It was actually almost nice talking to her on the phone.

OK, so I'm not going to plan B, going to work really hard on Plan A. Gotta stop flip flopping on this.

Anyway going to start working on myself more, I've done all I can emotionally so to speak, so I'm starting on the physcial part of me now. Started smoking again when this all started back in November after quiting for 3 years. Got 4 cigarettes left in this pack and that's it, no more, cold turkey....

Made an appointment at a fitness center this evening after work. Going to start working out and get rid of the spare tire, all ready lost 20lbs due the stress from all this. I want to lose another 10 lbs. and start toning up. Get some cardio in as well.

SooOOoOoooo.... Hopefully, when she comes back the 1st of May like she says she's going to (I'm still having trouble believing she's coming back to work on the marriage, but we'll see), I'll have lost some more weight, toned up some and she'll have something nice to look at. Even if she isn't going to stay, at least I'll be healthy and ready to move on with my life without her. Not that I want to move on without her, but I'll be more prepared.

Good idea, Tres. Plus exercise helps reduce stress.

Question for y'all....

When she left for OK, I told her she would be responsible for her car payment and insurance... I just received about $1000.00 in medical bills for her, from when she was in the hotel.

So should I mail these bills to her, one of 'em kinda annoyed me, because it came in mine name, not hers? Granted she's all ready pissed about the car 'cause she can't make the payment....

If you are getting bills in your name for a person you don't feel responsible for, I think you should contact the agency that is trying to bill you, right away!

OK, let me preface this with we're not at this point yet, but me being me, I like to get my ducks in a row and plan ahead for as many outcomes as possible.

I've been thinking a lot about what needs to happen before WW is allowed to come home (if she decides to come home). This is what I've come up with so far, am I being unreasonable?

• Cancel World of Warcraft account.
  • Never play any online or MMORPG games again.
• Cancel all social networking accounts (i.e. Facebook, Myspace).
• Cancel all instant messaging accounts (i.e. AIM, yahoo IM, MSN IM)
• Cancel all e-mail accounts (except the one provided by our ISP).
• No Contact Letter to OM and appology to OM's parents.
• Complete committment to the marriage.
  • Agree to work through MB principles/program.
  • Seek marriage counseling.
  • Complete honesty.
  • Complete transparency.

So is this unreasonable? Am I forgetting anything (I feel like I am)?

Thanks,

Make sure passwords to email are transparent to you.
You may just want to block the social networking sites so she does not make a new one.
Set up a specific time to work on marriage, about 20+ hours per week for the first couple weeks. then go to 15+ hours.

Since the computer is a major problem my WW and I have agreed to limit her computer time. She has only 1 hour to check email and do her business. Otherwise any other computer time must be monitored by me.

Funny part is my WW is going through WoW withdrawl rather than affair withdrawl. She tries every other day to get me on WoW so she has an excuse to play. I miss it, but my marriage is not worth it.

I quit playing WoW right after D-Day. She won't stop. Before she left, I had to reinstall Windows on her computer, so I deleted WoW. She asked if I had installed and told her no, if she wants to work on the marriage WoW has to go. Hid the install discs from her. She downloaded and installed it the day she got down there and is on almost all day until 2 or 3am.

Yeah, passwords was part of transparency. I was also thinking of having giving her give up her computer, and use mine as a family computer so to speak. That way I could better monitor her online activities.

I turned my wifes computer into a media center and put it on the TV, and stereo. I sold an older one of mine to family, and locked mine down so she has limited access. WoW is addictive, and addicts will do anything to get their fix. If the OM was a WoW player the thing has to go.

Yup, OM was a WoW player, hence the reason I've said it has to go. The OM from a couple years ago was a WoW players as well. We quit playing WoW, and for 2 and half years our marriage was the best it had ever been. Then we started playing WoW again, put down rules of playing (i.e. only so many hours a week), it worked for a few months then the rules went out the window and marriage started going downhill. Tried to get us off the game several times to no avail. Video games have been one of the underlying problems in our marriage, either one of us or both of us get so into a game that we start to ignore the marriage (i.e. each other). The 2 and half years when there were no video games in the house, everything was great, not perfect, but great.

How do y'all Plan A someone when you're not sure what the hell is going through their head? I mean she tells her brother things (like she still loves me, our marriage is not over), but then acts the complete opposite towards me when we talk on the phone.

Can't tell if she's lying to me or to everyone else. It's frustrating as all hell.

I know they say surround yourself with people that are pro-marriage, so what do you do when you have family (parents) that are suggesting ending it? Do you just stop talking to them for the time being? I'm finding it difficult to stay positive when family members are telling me that I should just cut my losses.

If the WW decides to come back to the marriage, how do you tell if they are coming back because they want to or because they have to (financially)?

Tresmal- You are not Plan Aing your WW. What you are doing is changing and growing through all that you are learning on here. You are going to show her what YOU can be like. Make yourself into the person you KNOW you are and who you WANT to be. That is what Plan A is about. It isn't contingent on how your WW reacts or what SHE is doing. It is YOUR PLAN.

She is lying to EVERYONE.

As far as all of the people around you telling you to cut your losses, just tell them that you understand that they are looking out for what is best for you but that you KNOW what is best for you is to TRY to save your M and you would like them to support your efforts in THAT direction.

I hope this helps

Thanks Scott.

Moving on with improving myself. While, I still want to save my marriage, I've come face reality that it may never happen. I still have hope, but I'm not dwelling on it. I moving forward with my life and if she decides to come back to the marriage great, if not then oh well. I know this may be selfish, but I feel like I can't put any more effort into my marriage than I all ready have, I'm broken and tired, I don't have much more to give. What little I have left for my marriage, I'm saving for if and when WW comes back. So right now, its all about me, fixing me, making a better me.

Become the best H you can be. This is your opportunity to change things for yourself and for the M.

Look at what you know or think are her top EN's and concentrate on those first. Concentrate on getting rid of completely the LB's.

One thing I keep noticing is your action towards trying to curb her behavior. You have NO control over her. If she wants to get on WOW, she will find a way. You can make it difficult for her...i.e. no longer finance it, get rid of the credit card that pays for her account, get rid of the computer, etc.

begin to think of WOW as a drug or alcohol. How are you helping her get her drug, and how are you keeping her from her drug. You can't get rid of the supply, but you don't have to help her, and you can't control her choice to seek out her drug.

Yeah, I know it's like a drug. I was addicted to the game as well, twice. Both times I realized what it was doing to our marriage and I quit playing. You're right I have no control over what she does, especially now that she is no longer living in the house. I have made it as difficult for her as I can for her to play WoW, first I didn't install it on her computer when I wiped it and reinstalled Windows before she left. After I found out she reinstalled it, I told her that she needs to either cancel the account or change the credit card that it is charged to, as the account that it is currently drawing it from is empty and I will not be putting any more money into said account. Other than that there isn't a whole lot I can do.

As far as her EN's, I haven't been able to get her to go through the EN worksheet from MB. However, we did go through the 5 Languages of Love worksheet a few months ago (basically the same idea as Dr. Harley's EN's, but there are only 5). The problem with this is that her top 2 love languages (EN's) are affection and words of affirmation. Now the words of affirmation I can do, I can tell her on the phone/e-mail/IM how beautiful she is and things like that. The affection (which was the higher of the two) can't really be done long distance, it requires an amount of physical contact (touch on the hand, welcome home kiss, etc). So needless to say this a difficult one.

The LB's I've pretty much elimated, though it's difficult at times and there have been some slips, not lately but a couple days before she left. We got into an "screaming" argument, and I had to call out "4 Horseman" (Dr. Gottman (sp?)) and remove myself from the argument. Only problem was that she followed me outside and continued yelling at me, and giving me a hard time about smoking a cigarette to calm down.

OK, had a relapse in Plan A last night.....

Was talking to wife on the phone and we got into some "relationship" talk. When she left she said she would be coming back around the first of May. I knew at the time this was pretty much BS, that it was just her attempt at making her feel better by trying to make me feel better. Anyway last night she made the comment that right now she doesn't want to come home. Got into talking about it and I know she's been dealing with some anger issues towards me. I know one of the big ones and a couple of the smaller (though still big) issues. But she indicated that those weren't the only things she was angry about and she can't get over the anger. I asked her what else and she said she doesn't feel comfortable talking to me about them. Don't I have a right to know why she's angry at me? Aren't I the one that's supposed to be angry? Maybe I'm just too forgiving, probably because of my renewed faith life, but I still think I have a right to know....

Anyway, while I had a slight relapse in Plan A, we were able to conduct the conversation in civilized manner. No LB's, calm voices, no yelling or accusing.

Tresmal- IMHO I think that part of why your WW can't explain why she is angry with you is because she honestly doesn't know. You see when a BS is in Plan A the WS gets confused. They thought the BS was the WORST person on the planet. Then the BS shows them that even though the WS has hurt them in the most HORRIBLE way, they are nice, calm and even NOT the worst person on the planet. The WS starts to doubt their decisions. They get MAD at THEMSELVES. They can't be mad at themselves so they turn it on to the BS. The BS must be doing this to them. Somehow it's the BS's FAULT that they feel this way. She needs to engage you in an argument so she can justify her decisions and say to herself, "See, he is BAD for me. I knew I WAS RIGHT."

Fog babble.

You should read the threads about reverse fog babble and learn how to use it. You also have to understand that what she says is FOG BABBLE and you shouldn't really pay too much attention. She is the teacher from peanuts, "Wah wah wah wah wah."

Ditto what Scotty said. WW is angry at you because your Plan A is having an effect on her. She's angry because you're making it difficult for her to paint you as the ogre in all this. That pretty much leaves her looking like a fool and a scumbag. Who wouldn't be hostile?

GREAT job on controlling the LBs, especially AOs. That would have given her all kinds of "proof" about how horrible you are. If you can avoid relationship talk altogether, it would be even better, but sometimes the WS brings it up and the best you can do is control LBs and change the subject as quickly as possible. Maybe instead of pursuing her "I'm angry at you", just deflect with "I am confident we can build a strong and fantastic marriage. Oh, did I tell you about the squirrel I saw in the park yesterday? That thing was insane..."

Anyway, your Plan A is working. Good job with that, I know you were discouraged a while back. Keep focusing on your long term goal and not your short term feelings (or hers).

Keep up your Plan A, you are doing very well.

Good point Scott. I like the reference to Peanuts... I'll have have to take a look at the reverse fog babble, I remember reading it while back, but I think I need a refersher. One of the other things to keep in mind (and this is probably partly fog babble) is that she has Cystic Fibrosis, which is a terminal disease. One of things she mentioned last night was "I'm 29 years old and the life expectancy of someone with CF is 35 (not sure if that was the right age) and I don't want to spend the last few years of my life miserable." So she has a little bit of "death" complex going on right now too. When she said this, I told her "Your not dying anytime soon, I won't let that happen. I don't won't you to be miserable, I don't want to be miserable. Do you think I would be working as hard as I am to save our marriage if I thought we would both be miserable?" Probably not the wisest comment, but that's what was going through my head at the time and sometimes I have a problem with the filter between brain and mouth.

Thanks Turtle.

I was having some issues yesterday (still somewhat discouraged), but I talked to my priest before I talked to her last night and he was able to calm me down and prevent me from doing something stupid. I was kinda at the end of my rope yesterday and was about to give her an ultimatum that she needed to make a decision to stay or go by Sunday. He was able to basically convince me to continue with Plan A (though he's not completely familiar with MB principles, he has the basic concepts).

Eh...Getting discouraged again. Plan A seems to be failing again. Yeah, I know she's gonna go in and out. Talked to her last night, and we always pray before we get off the phone. Up until last night we've both prayed for God to watch over our marriage to give it strength and patience. Last night when WW prayed she purposefully didn't pray for our marriage (i.e. her prayers are usually pretty standard, prays for the same things every night, last night where whe would usually pray for our marriage there was a long pause and then she ended her prayer).

Maybe I'm reading too much into it. WW has her first appointment with the psychologist today to work on her anger issues she has for me. Don't know if that's going to help any.

My only problem now is that I'm not sure if I want her to come back. I do love WW, and if she did decide to come back I probably would let her (provided she abides by my conditions to come home), but every day that goes by I'm leaning closer and closer to Plan B/Plan D. I'm starting to enjoy my life now, working out at the gym has been a lot of fun (painful, but fun), and I'm starting to get the rest of my life back in order.

I don't feel like I "need" her around as much as I thought I did a few weeks ago. Though I'm still having issues with laundry .... I do it but then I forget to take it out of the dryer, or I take it out, put it in the laundry basket and forget to put it away. Was one of my WW's biggest pet peaves when we were dating. Funny thing is the house stays much cleaner with her gone.

Oh, well guess it's just a wait and see now.

You absolutely can NOT judge the success/failure of your efforts by what she says when she is not committed to the marriage.

You are reacting to her. You need to focus on your plan, and consistency over time, regardless of what she does.

So... forget about the prayer thing.

How are you doing at meeting her ENs?
What challenges have you faced with that since she moved away, and how have you handled them? Are there any you need help with?

What LBs are you finding it most difficult to conquer?

Are you snooping? Any gut feeling that she's in contact or wayward?

Focus on THAT stuff. Be the lighthouse and let her be the floundering boat. The lighthouse doesn't run over and stand on a different rock just because the boat got tossed around a bit.

I know... Just kinda venting frustration. Trying to forget about the prayer thing.


Having a really difficult time meeting her ENs. With her away, we only talk once a day and it's usually only for 10 to 15 minutes. It's difficult to meet her ENs as affection is a big one and I can't be affectionate over the phone. Plus when I do say things like "I think your the most beautiful person in the world." etc. She ends up telling me to stop because it makes her feel unconfortable.


LBs aren't a real problem. I've been able to really control what I say to her on the phone. I always keep a calm and steady voice. Don't get into blaming her or demeaning her (though the thoughts have crossed my mind).


As much as I can. Think I got caught this weekend as I accidently forgot to set one of her facebook messages to unread. Shortly after she changed the password to her facebook account, it only took me one try to figure out the new password though. I have my suspicions that she is still in contact either with the original OM or possible other OM's. She has not removed the original OM from her facebook account nor her AIM account. Her AIM account has 4 or 5 other people on it that I don't know and can't seem to get any information on. The message that I read on her FB account, was to another guy that she went to church with a while back, before we met. Guy is from Canada, the messages were just catching up, but then she started telling him that she was back in OK, because she is temporarily separated from her husband because we have a lot of issues in our marriage. So, it's the possible making of another EA, as this guy is single.

Should have installed EBlaster on her computer before she left, but didn't have the time.

Plan A is not about getting her to do something or another, Plan A is simply exposure of the A and a negotiation to end the A. You begin in this stage to learn about ENs and to fill up her LB$ and cut out the LBs. You become a better H.

OK, so affection and affirmation are her 2 biggies. You CAN provide affection long range by providing a picture or feeling in her mind. Describe touch, caressing, and affection you miss or like, or wish you could do.

Please don't refer to Plan A "working" or not. That is not what it is about, it is not a manipulation to make her act a certain way. It is a new way to act and view your M so as she continues with her A, and faces more reality, she sees what she is losing.

It's too easy to quit moving forward and being the best H you can be if you think it's not "working". That just means these changes you are making are not permanent and you are only going through the motions until she comes back.

Think of the changes you are making as long-term permanent changes for yourself and your M.

Well found out this morning she is now talking to one of her ex-boyfriends. Found the messages on her facebook account and it was mentioned that he called her last night and that her mom noticed the difference in her after talking to him.

OM is not married. Though he is the youth leader in his congregation and lives in Ontario.

Do I expose all over again or do I go to Plan B or Plan D? Seems like she's never going to get out of this habit of taking solice in other men online. I'm at my wits end, I can't Plan A anymore. So it's either B or D? Personally I'm leaning towards D for the fact that this has been a repeated problem throughout our 7 year marriage and I don't think she's going to change. I talked to an attorney last week, just to get an idea of where I would stand and what I'm responsible for during the separation. Basically, OH has a one year separation rule, with a few excepetions, one being adultery (though she was sure an EA would be considered). However, she did say that one of the other exceptions is abandonment, which is what WW did. Provided, WW doesn't fight she can have the dissolution of our marriage completed in 35 days. Also said WW really wouldn't get anything, the judges in our county are not favorable to spousal support, plus our marriage is considered short term so probably wouldn't be considered anyway. If she did get any spousal support it wouldn't be much and it wouldn't be for very long (maybe a couple months).

I wish I could have saved this marriage, I really do, but I just don't think at this point it's possible. I've lost so much of the feeling I have for her and her continued actions are taking too much of an emotional toll on me. I'm ready to move on if she doesn't want to come back to the marriage.

It's not you.
It's her.

Oh I know it's not me.

I wish I could have been another MB success story, but it's not looking that way right now.

Okay, excuse me if this seems a little like a 2x4, it isn't intended that way.

You are in Plan A. You are deciding between Plan B or D. Well, you are following DrH's concepts so why not Plan B?

Have you read SAA?

Dr H has a 2 part PLAN. The first part in Plan A. This is a temporary sitch and it only works by itself 15% of the time. Did you think going in you would be lucky enough to be in that 15%? So after the Plan A, you are supposed to move to Plan B. There is a time limit for Plan B as well. Dr H had suggested 2 years. After 2 years of Plan B it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that a M would/could be R. NOT IMPOSSIBLE. The end of Plan B is when one of 2 things happen, D or R. Personally I would stay in Plan B for my allotted amount of time,even if my WH filed for and got a D. I would need to personally R and it would be too painful to deal with WH.

So my answer to your question of Plan B or D, I say B.

Since you are still currently in Plan A, I would expose. I would expose on HIS side too. That's just ME.

Are you smarter than Dr H? Even he says he can't tell who will recover and who won't. That's why I try to help everyone. Who knows what will happen? I know I don't know everything.

Everything that happens is dependent on a lot of factors.

See here's the problem with Plan B.....

WW has cystic fibrosis and runs up thousands of dollars in medical bills every year. In Plan B, I would still be responsible for those bills...Sucks I know. But she's on my insurance and doesn't have any of her own (yet), and by law as long as we're still married I have to provide medical insurance for her as well as be financially responsible for any of her medical bills. Plus, if I wait two years our marriage would be considered mid term and she would be more apt to receive spousal support at that point.

While I do still love her in some way, I'm not sure I love her enough to let her destroy me financially.

Sounds like you have already made your decision. There are many people who can help you will that.

If you have no children and this has been an on going problem, I think Plan D is appropriate in this case. Recovery is tough. And I thought I had read here in the past, in the case of a short term marriage with no children, Dr. H sometimes recommends D.

Yeah no children, marriage will be 7 years next month.

Here's free advice. Worth every nickel.

About EXPOSURE ... in this particular situation ....

Call the latest OM.
If you don't have his number, send him a FB message with YOUR number.
Ask him to call you.

Identify yourself as WW's current H.
Tell him 7 years married.
Tell him multiple infidelities in 7 years.

Tell him he is now officially "warned" and "advised" about the character and moral laxity of WW.
Tell OM that since he is in a "leadership role" in his church, you thought he'd want to know the facts, not some fantasy WW probably told him.


And say:

"You need to know who WW really is.
She is married.
She is a serial adulteress."


Then, tell him:

"Good luck"

Heh...Heh... I had actually all ready thought of that.

Well, now you've been "greenlighted".

Tres, the poor schmuck has probably been fed a bunch of lies by WW.
As your "civic duty" and as a "public service" ... unfetter the truth for the betterment of mankind.

Dang, remind me to never get on Pep's bad side.

Well, I know it may not be MB, but I finally decided that this marriage really isn't worth saving. WW is a habitual cheater, and I doubt she'll ever change. Though I'm still sort of giving it a chance. I told the other day that she has to make a decision as to whether or not she coming back to the marriage. She has an appointment with the psychologist on Wednesday, so I gave her until then to make a decision.

Even if she does decide to come back, I have a laundry list of things that will have to happen (basically EP's) before she can return. I have my doubts that she'll agree to all of them as they're pretty strict and I've suggested them in the past and she's refused.

I know, I'm basically setting this up to end the marriage, but unless she agrees to my conditions to return home, there is no hope.

I want to thank all of you for your great advice, but I don't think Plan B is going to be worth it in this case. I've planned A her enough over the last 5 months and I'm just tired of it and have lost some much of the love that I have for her that I think this is just going to be the best route to take now.

Had a talk with one of our priests wive's yesterday and she really surprised me in saying that she didn't think I should allow her to come back and that I should just end it. Indicated that she didn't think WW was a good role model for DD, and I have to agree with her.

Tresmal, you have the right to make that decision at any time. It sounds like it's a bit late for Plan B because your love for her is pretty well gone. I don't blame you for not wanting to try again with an habitual cheater.

Sorry it's come to this. How are you feeling about things?

Well, I still feel like I should try just because of my morals about committment, but at the same time I just want to move on. I'm tired of putting my life on hold for someone that may or may not want to be with me. I think emotionally I've distanced myself from WW, though the thought of my marriage being over still hurts. I have a lot friends from church that have stood by my side throughout all of this and I know they'll continue to support me, whatever my decision is. But for now, I'm planning and bracing myself to for the "Big D", hopefully it will be quick and with as little pain as possible. As long as WW doesn't fight it, the attorney said we could be all set and done within 35 days from the day I put her on retainer.