First post. Discovered all I need to know that H who is prof is having affair with 40-something doctoral student who is his advisee. H is 57, nationally known scholar with stellar reputation in his field. I confronted and got the "we're just friends" line which I now know after reading "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass is bull crap.

I have 40 pages of emails between them printed off after I was able to figure out his password. After the initial D day talk and his continued denial of anything other than friendship, I kept at it till I got their emails and put a copy in my own safety deposit box, then confronted him with a second copy of all of it. He finally broke down and says he feels addicted to the emails and contacts with her. Denies physical affair but I found proof that she was in his hotel room at a professional conference they both went to 3 months ago. So, told him he must think I'm a fool.

I told him if he wants to stay in our home and work on marriage, I'll try, but he must drop her as an advisee NOW. Told me it would raise eyebrows at his university as she is in last semester of disseratation after a 5 year program. No other prof will pick up in the middle of a research disseratation he has advised to this point.

I'm considering my next move....I am tempted to go to his department's academic dean and spill the story, however, it may or may not cause problems for him. I have a Ph.D. and must say academia is famous for profs and students hooking up. In my own doctoral program several years ago, almost all of my middle age male profs had divorced wives to marry younger grad student advisees. Infidelity seems rampant in these settings, especially among adult students and profs in grad programs.

I'm confused about my next steps....

Me: 52
WH: 57
Married: 29 years
No children

I know your hurt so please be strong.
My H too is a teacher and he had A with a collegue 5 years ago. I did not expose and now he is on his second A (with downstairs neighbor) and he is gone, moved out and spends all his free time with her.
Ladylong, it is true that the teaching world is a fertile ground for A. But this is not a justification. How do you feel about it?
I would tell your H that he can't have her as his assistant any longer even if that jeopardizes her dissertation. It is up to him to find a solution not you. He is the one having the A.
Should he refuse to do this, then he needs to move out and you need to start plan B.
I am not sure about exposure. If that would shame your H, go ahead. However if he could lose his job and income then you will suffer from it as well.
Just wait for the veterans on this forum to answer that. Also if you can afford it, consult with Steve Harley.
Be strong and believe that this was meant to happen to you and that it is an opportunity for growth. Turn the pain of the situation into fuel to know more about you and what you want.
blessing

I am sorry you find yourself in this situation. But there is very good advice on this site.

Have you read the materials on this site? Also, Dr. Harley's book "Surviving an Affair"?

Of course, he will not want to drop OW as an advisee. He really just wants to continue the A without interference from you. Your instincts are good. Expose the affair to whomever can help end it - his family, at work, close friends, etc.

Best wishes.

AM

PS The purpose of exposure is to end the affair, not revenge. H will need to never see or speak to this OW again if your M is to recover.

Wait on the exposure part. See what the veterans tell you.
blessing

Thank you atena. I am pretty devastated but also mad as hell. We've had a great marriage, both in similar fields, travelled working together all over the world. Always both been proud of the fact we've had a loving, caring relationship while functioning as marital and intellectual equals.

I'm not afraid of him leaving. I'm financially independent and have my own separate investments, funds, accounts, etc. We jointly own two homes outright (our primary residence and a vacation home).

If I expose him, it will make the news because he is well known as an "expert" in the U.S. So, not sure where to go with this other than to kick his butt out and let him answer questions and deal with the fallout. I have been hugely disrespected by his actions.....he says he became slowly "addicted" to this woman by close work for so long....says he couldn't stop himself although he knew he should have. Sorry, buddy, no excuse. He manages to handle all other aspects of his life and career with great control......

Read "Surviving an Affair" and prepare to ride the long rollercoaster of personal and/or marital recovery.

Have you decided if you want to save your marriage or not? Many people don't. Even the founder of marriagebuilders said that if he discovered his W in an affair, he would never see or speak with her again. On the other hand, most advise not to make this decision right away - too many emotions.

There are a couple of good threads to look at. One is how affairs start. And there is a newsletter about exposure about when it is advised and when not advised.

AM

I'm not sure if I can get past the lying, sneaky behavior that occurred before I figured out what was going on. For the past 6 months he had been very distant, critical of me. Frankly, I was so distracted by the issues around the serious illness and death of my mother and all the time I spent trying to figure out what care she needed, handling her estate, selling her home, etc. that I know I was not on my game. After almost 30 years of marriage, you'd think I'd get support rather than have him so needy that he couldn't endure 6 months of my being distracted and somewhat consumed by trying to do right by my mother and take care of her (not in our home....nursing facility).

If he's that self-centered that he can't be a support rather than seek his own comfort during times of stress....how could I count on him if my health failed? My guess is he'd go running in another direction to not have to face any difficulties. Just how I'm feeling right now.

Can't decide if I can do the work on this relationship.....

Ladylonglegs,
yes the disrespect is what hurts most. Possibly many know about your H's A and that is also shameful. In my case the whole neighborhood knew...except me and my son.
Do you have kids?
Your H is giving you all the excuses possible to justify is CHOICE. As you said, he has control about many aspects of his life and could have done the same about this woman. But he decided not to.
There are consequences to a choice to have an A. One of them is the loss of the wife and comfortable lifestyle and reputation one once earned and had.
MB recommends exposure in most cases even if Steve Harley recommends not to from time to time. You H has a lot to lose. I was against exposure in the past and then I realized that my silence only enabled my H to have his second and fatal A (fatal for our M).
The thing is, A are seen as an acceptable behaviour in our society...men are little raskals who sooner or later are going to frolic with a younger maiden...and the W should be understanding.. after all he will come back to her.
I am convinced it is up to us to change this attitude so my first gut feeling tells me you should expose.
Of course your emotions are very raw right now, however, your H must go no contact -NC -with her immediately, otherwise I would kick him out.
blessing

Both my H's A were an escape from problems I was having with my work environment.
In his first, I was in a very distressed working environment for 3 months...all it took for him to seek another woman. In the second case I was dealing with a demanding course I was teaching. All it took was two months of this for him to turn to neighbor W.
All along H has had many crises and problems...but I never cheated on him.
Yes, they can be very very self centered, and as they age there are other issues: My H's OW is 15 years younger and man as they age are flattered by the attention of younger women. They find that irresistible. They might also be having erection problems and being with a younger woman makes them feel young again. It is very much of a fantasy....but the destruction they bring to their lives and the lives of others is real.
What your H did is very typical and it is by no means justifiable.
blessing

I'm so confused in my thinking that I'm not doing anything for the moment. I'm a very logical thinker usually, but this has thrown me into emotional and mental confusion and I think I need some time to just calm down and think rationally about my options, what kind of future I want, and where he may or may not fit in to that. My mind is racing all the time and I'm vascillating betweeen tears and cursing him.

He's sleeping in the guest room now. I took all of his clothes out of our huge walk in closet and threw them down the staircase yesterday and told him to stay out of our bedroom suite. He hasn't left, which surprises me. I figured he'd just move out. I probably would have been relieved if he did. However, I think he's afraid of what I'll do. I also think he's deathly afraid of the consequences of exposure of his affair, although the department he's in is a little Peyton Place of gossip, and I can't imagine that many there haven't found out about him. Also, I think Miss Hot Pants grad student wants people to know but wants him to think she's trying to hide their relationship. One of the ways I found out about the whole thing was through 2 anonymous phone calls from a woman's voice saying "Your H is involved with another woman". My guess is it was her.....she wanted me to know I'm sure so our marriage would blow up. She's divorced.

Take a look at that Anatomy of an Affair thread. It sounds as if this may have been the path of your H. Many As are not planned and people slide into them. Also, I will try to bump the thread with the link to the exposure newsletter. It is good reading as well.

Yes, the betrayal and lying are often as bad as the A itself. Dr. Harley talks about openness and honesty in M. Lying and independent behavior are huge lovebusters. Read, read, read here.

In my case, H and I are in a very bumpy recovery - but still working at it. He refused to be open and honest for more than a year and I could not recover without it.

AM

Yes, your H is certainly afraid of the loss of reputation he will incurr if the A is exposed. Of course everyone knows.. but one thing is if you take a stance against it and kick your H out...then it looks bad.
Of course OW is a piece of trash and is looking to secure her future with your prestigious H...who might lose his reputation...then, maybe he might not looks so hot to her any longer.
blessing

Not a lot of posters here on the week ends. Things will pick up this evening.

You did good by finding proof then saving it in a secure place.

This affair needs to be exposed and NC in place. WH and OW can never work together.

Expose to WH parents, his siblings, kids, OWH/OWBF, OW parents.

You must also expose this affair at work. Write letter/email to the college president, CC Director or HR, the Board of Directors.

I understand. I discovered my H's A in April 2008 and it brought me to my knees. I too have a PhD (Phi Beta Kappa), am a retired Army Colonel, had a successful professional career and raised three children. But my husband's A shook me to my core. It does get better though.

You are a smart woman. Arm yourself with knowledge. Read everything here to include the books, "Lovebusters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". I learned a huge amount about addiction and the addictive nature of As.

AM

Ladylonglegs, for some reason I am very drawn to your story. I confess that I'm not a "veteran" per se, but like everyone here have had my life devastated by my spouse's affair. She has moved out and we are in the "waiting period" for divorce. I say this because the primary intent of this forum is to save marriages, if possible, and when the betrayed spouse wants to.

This is the weekend, and the veterans aren't as active. So I go along with the advice that recommends you read Dr. Harley's articles, the Basic Concepts, Emotional Needs, "Love Busters" and Surviving Infidelity. The box labeled "Most Popular Links" to the right of this page are a good place to start.

First, you must decide if you want to save your marriage. 29 years is not something to throw away lightly. Saving it will take a lot of hard work, however, and your husband will go through terrible rages during the process. The emotional battering you will have to endure is as bad or worse than what you're feeling now. But the principles you will be given have been proven to work. If you want to work them.

Surviving an affair here most often means "rescuing the marriage." But in some cases (I count myself among them) surviving means getting free of a very disordered condition and recovering. We can help you there, too.

Welcome to Marriage Builders. I'm sorry you're here. Please read up on the site's concepts, decide what you want to do and then let us help you do it.

I understand about "Miss Hot Pants" wanting you to know and maybe being the anonymous caller. In my case, the OW accidentally sent a text message at three in the morning. H denied an A and it continued for three days, until I got the phone bill and details.

My point is that OW will be trying to break the marriage right now. She will do/say things that will illicit your anger. Staying calm is hard, but important. In MB terms, this is Plan A. I was terrible at it and really let H have the brunt of my anger.

I think it is best if you (and your H too when he is clear headed in his thinking) decide what you want - not as a reaction of OW's actions. Sorry - I hope this is clear enough.

AM

Maybe I'm thinking very selfishly right now, but all I can feel is tired when I think of the work it would take to fix this mess. I'm 53, still pretty good looking, financially independent and wanting to enjoy the next 10 years fully. I can't see how this would be fixed in anything less than years from what I read here before I started posting. And then, how do you open and share yourself fully to someone who is willing to take his lover and partner for 30 years and lie to you, treat you shabbily and do whatever he did to justify his affair by making me the bad wife? Do I need someone like that in my life, even though we had a long run with a good marriage? Of course, I could be blind and maybe he's had more than just this affair.....he certainly had opportunities with the travel, reasearch and student relationships that occur during long graduate programs. However, I like to think I would have picked up vibes on this in the past when I wasn't distracted by extreme family circumstances. I always trusted him. Maybe dumb. However, his distance and critical behavior in the past few months was unlike any part of our previous relationship. So, for now I believe it was a two way love match before this.

I'm learning more all the time about Miss Hot Pants. Amazing what you can find online and through unversity publications. I'm sure she's one of his many adoring grad students who are mesmerized by his curriculum vita, his prominence in the field, his charming personality and (aging)good looks. Maybe I should let her have him.....I think I got his best years......

And herein lies the crux of the matter: YOU need to decide on which path you want to tread. You seem very confident in your own abilities. You don't seem dependent on him at all. So, do you want to try to save your marriage, or do you want to as they say on this forum, "go directly to Plan D(ivorce)?"

This shows some incredible insight. Be careful of the disrespectful judgement portion tho.

I may be going off the deep end. I'm a nice person....you need to know that before I write the following....

I'm so angry I could spit nails. I feel like I have been dragged into a soap opera without my permission. I hate that his affair is probably known in his work environment at least, although he thinks nobody suspects anything. I think he's deluding himself. And I feel like I've been made a fool of....

I know MB says expose the affair.....I'm thinking about this. I could expose him and it might blow up friendships with couples we travel and run with, but at work, I'm guessing no impact. Too frequent an occurance and we're not talking about a 57 year old prof and an 18 year old....we're talking adult grad student 46 years old who's divorced. His parents are gone....he's an only child....my sister knows already and is irrate. We have a very small living family.

I'm thinking the 40 pages of emails, the other documents like copies of a hotel bill where they were (he was paying for it with government grant money ..not legal I'm sure)....(room charges for dinner in the room for 2). I'm kind of in a great position to negotiate a hell of a deal with him for all of our properties and possessions in exchange for not blowing his national reputation to kingdom come and turning him in for misuse of government grant funds. I don't need it to be secure, but talk about "living well is the best revenge"! I'd get a big chuckle out of letting Miss Hot Pants have him relatively broke. Now this is making me smile for the first time in days.

Ladylonglegs, I think I was very much like you when I arrived here. I was undecided on whether I wanted to try to save my marriage, or whether I was too devastated by my wayward wife's (WW) betrayal. I received a lot of help from the people here, first to work on trying to recover my marriage, and then, ultimately, to save myself.

This is the abbreviated version of the MB program to rescue a marriage from infidelity:

• Kill the affair
• Employ MB principles to recover

Killing the affair means first exposing it to everyone who can or might have influence over the participants: employers, relatives, peers, associates. This is done in a "nuclear" fashion -- all at once. Coupled with the "I am the loving person you wanted and married 29 years ago" behavior on your part, this is called Plan A.

Plan A rarely suffices to kill the affair by itself. So when Plan A has run its course, Plan B takes affect. Plan B is complete separation (you stay, he goes) and complete isolation. You do not communicate in any way, shape or form with your wayward husband (WH). At the point of departure, you hand WH "the letter" which discussed the reason for separation, identifies an intermediary of your choosing (for necessary communication between the two of you: taxes, child care, etc.). It also describes the conditions necessary for the two of you to begin discussing rebuilding the marriage. These start with permanent and total NO CONTACT (NC) with the other woman (OW). A NC letter is drafted by the TWO OF YOU and YOU send it. Other conditions might be a polygraph test, a medical test for STD, marriage counseling, a job change, a move of residence, and what the Harleys call "just compensation." There are the MB rules that are described here and in the Harleys' books.

Plan A and Plan B may be the next steps, if you want to save the marriage. I sense that you are on the fence as I was. I finally made my decision and I'm happy with it. Now the decision is yours...

Feel with your emotions, think/act/speak with your logic.

Do not confuse the two. This is most important at this time.

Fred...my anger speaking....but why the hell should I do anything? He's the one who threw the bomb into our life. I think if he wants me, he needs to make the overtures, do the work...in fact, he needs to beg on his knees. I don't need him badly enough to ingratiate myself to him and treat him nicely while he screws another woman and gives her the emotional support and attention I should have as his wife. He's infatuated, addicted, whatever you want to call it. When I initally talked to him and told him to drop her as a student, he gave me reasons why a prof can't drop a final semester disseratation student.

I totally get your anger, LLL. When I was betrayed by my wife, I held all the cards. I owned the house, the cars, the health insurance, etc. There were no reasons from a practical standpoint that I wanted or needed my wife back in the relationship. I simply wanted her back for the love I thought we shared.

What we betrayed spouses have to deal with are "aliens" who have taken over our loved ones' bodies. They are in the depths of an addiction every bit as powerful as drugs or alcohol. Maybe even more so. Everything they say is to be disbelieved and minimized. They can't be trusted. They have crossed a line from which some never return.

My first focus here on Marriage Builders is personal recovery. I wish to help people like you recover sanity, self-esteem and hope -- whether or not you ever recover your marriage. This can be done. In my case, I read the books, the articles and the posts here. I had to understand my behavior to understand what conditions existed that made it possible for my wife to have an affair. No, I don't blame myself (although the wayward spouse ALWAYS blames the betrayed), but I know that I fell short in the Emotional Needs (EN) department. I hope I have learned my shortcomings so that I will not repeat my behaviors in the future.

There is a definitive plan for recovery here. It focuses on marital recovery, but even a marriage cannot recover if the people involved in it cannot achieve their own peace and stability. But even without marital recovery, there is personal recovery here. I hope you continue to share your story, your thoughts, your frustrations, your triumphs and your pain with us. Together, we can do what alone we cannot.

What you are feeling is pretty normal. You just found out!
WS rarely "de fog" quickly.

Keep reading the articles and give yourself time to sort out your feelings.
The vets will come along soon.

Denial, finger pointing, reverse blame, excuses and gaslighting are all 100% predictable WS actions- at first anyway. To you it is outrageous and extreeme, but around here, this type of BS action/reaction is as common as rain.

\

Regardless of whether you want to save your marriage, right now, you should do these things:

1. Create a plan and execute that plan to destroy the affair and expose the affair. There are other men out there in that dept who haven't "cheated" just yet. A big blow up may protect their marriages. But it will also inconvenience the woman who called you to destroy your marriage and may wake your husband up long enough to look at what he's really losing by behaving like a juvie.

2. Read up on Plan A and Plan B. You may only be able to do one week of Plan A. But the reason you should do Plan A is to dust off your skills that you set aside to take care of your mother, and increase your sense of worth as a woman. It also gives your husband one last look at what he's tossing away before you go to Plan B and possibly to Plan D. Remember exposure must be nuclear and complete.

3. Plan B will be a comfort and solace to you as you toss the marriage ball to him and let him know he's going to have to do the heavy lifting to stop the D train from arriving at the station in due time.

Most women who feel like you, recognizing that the work may not be worth the reward have the position of greatest strength in recovering their marriages. You recognize that as he is, he's no great prize. Guess what - he's going to see that too and come running to save the marriage and do the hard work if you do this right.

Cheating robs a person of their authentic self. The man in the guest room in no way resembles the man you married. He is no great prize. But once he finds his authentic self, you could enjoy most of the ten years you planned originally with him. Perhaps it's time for the old man to retire, suddenly and dramatically and leave Ms. Hot Pants in her last semester of dissertation without an advisor willing to take on the trash. Oh Boo Hoo for her! She should have thought of that before taking on a lady of quality such as yourself!

Ladylonglegs, I would print this out, tape it to your wall in front of your computer, and read it aloud to yourself every time you start typing...

According to my H, only the death of a prof would be reason to leave a doctoral candidate in the last semester of disseratation. I told him it could probably be arranged!

Hot Pants is probably pretty stupid. I am in the same field as H although I'm not in academia. However, H and I have same professional world.....and I could do Hot Pants a lot of professional damage were I so inclined. My thoughts are turning evil......

That's his problem to deal with. In other words, his reasons for avoiding exposure should not become your reasons for avoiding exposure.

H is now up and around house pouting and giving me silent treatment. Poor him, mean old wife won't let him sleep in his own bed with wife while screwing grad student.

He's probably weighing his options....wants girlfriend/scared of what wife will do next.....he's knows I can play hard ball and usually win if it is important to me. If I were him, I'd be nervous as hell. He's in a tight spot and I'm holding his career and balls in my hands. I like that frankly. I feel for women and men here who can't walk away for financial or family reasons. On the other hand, doesn't make me feel like there's much reason to keep him around.

I'm frankly surprised at myself. I'm not this kind of person, as a matter of fact I'm usually a very empathic, supportive person. I volunteer with charitable organizations excessively, work the soup kitchens and children's programs at holidays, and try to give back. But I want vengance for being kicked in the stomach by the person I've been closest to for most of my life.

search your WH's university policies and procedures. Here's the results of a quick search on the internet for one university:


Your husband's definitely in the weeds, and could easily tenure a resignation, effective immediately if he were governed under similar rules of conduct. He could then slip into the private sector work with you and work on recovering his marriage. Either way, as a parent of a future university student (5 months), I would not want my son working on projects were one of his classmates was sleeping with the professor and getting favored status academically for it.

At Texas A&M, they have an honor code that is binding to both faculty and students:

I'm guessing that your university has both forms of behavior policies for faculty and staff. Find both, write a letter to his boss and the staff member governing students and blow this thing up by quoting from the policies and procedures of the institution.

I know all university's have similar written conduct codes. Believe me when I say there would be a huge deficit of university professors if these codes were anything but just words. I worked in academia, was a master's and doctoral student myself 20 some years ago, and have lots of current contact with academics now both socially and professionally. Like many fields, it is rife with affairs between especially grad students and profs. I'm not saying everyone does it, but you can't help but notice how many profs are married to or living with former students. Its an epidemic. Unless a student files a sexual harrassment suit, the university (men mainly) administrators turn a blind eye.

LLL,

Welcome to MB but sorry for your reasons for being here. Glad KA and others are giving you advice.

Do you have contacts in the media? Including that aspect in your letter to the university admin might be an option.

Ace

LLL, As a teacher (who is also a FWW), the daughter of two professors, and the W of a doctoral candidate, I say your H's claim that he can't leave his PhD student at this stage is bull. My H has had two committee members change due to moves and illness. He will graduate in May, and at this point it's all just editing and revisions while he waits to defend. He wouldn't die if his committee head had to hand him over, and neither will this OW. Also, I don't care if she is 46, the fact that she is his advisee in a PhD program makes it at least as unethical as if she were 18. Maybe not as sensational, but definitely as unethical. And the bottom line is, he shouldn't be concerned about his career or this...woman right now anyway. It's his marriage that he should be concerned about.

I think one reason education is a "breeding ground" is because it is such a specialized and - at times - vilified field (how many politicians regularly bash schools/universities). It's also usually a passion for those who do it, so we share a lot with each other. Then there's the "intellectual" part. And that breeds major ego. Ego+affair=a nauseatingly obnoxious wayward.

I believe with all my heart you should follow this MB advice, even exposure. With great idiocy comes great responsibility - in other words, you have an affair, you earn whatever consequences you get. I live in a very small town. I have taught here ten years, received a lot of money in arts grants, been named teacher of the year, traveled doing conferences. When H and I decided to mutually expose (we didn't know we were doing anything MB; I had confessed and we just followed our guts), I knew that in this kind of town, half the town would know before long. I do think it has probably impacted my career. But that was MY choice. If I had not had an affair, there would have been nothing to expose. So those "hardships" are on me. Period.

My H is just about the nicest, kindest, most sincere person you would know. He doesn't have AO's. But after D-day, sometimes he just couldn't take it - the pain was so great. Your anger, shock, pain, disgust....they are all normal. It is a grieving process. Journal those feelings. Close your door and scream into your pillow. Take up a kickboxing class. If you are a person of faith, pray and even ask why. I can't tell you how many "zombies" my H killed off on the computer of how hard he pounded the keys of our piano back then.

I know I have rambled, but I hope something I said has been helpful. And I am also so sorry about your mother. I know you are grieving for that too.

LLL, welcome to Marriage Builders, I am sorry you are here. I understand your feelings completely because I am also a very logical thinker, but all that went out the window when I discovered my H's affair. So I understand where you are. We can help you think through this and act in a sane, strategic way.

First off, your marriage is very recoverable if you handle this correctly. You may decide to leave the marriage, but I would suggest putting off such a decision for at least a year. You are under intense emotional duress right now, which makes for bad decision making. Divorce is permanent, whereas, your shock and fury is not. Long term decisions about your life should be made with a cooler head.

So, please put that aside for now and act as if you wanted to save the marriage. You have nothing to lose by doing so.

What you need is a strategic plan to kill this affair and protect your interests, and that is what we are here for.

The first step will be to calm down and stop attacking him. While you have every right to pistol whip him, it hurts your mission. The OW is not attacking him so this makes her look good. You are literally throwing him into her arms by doing this. Please do not help her cause. Do everything in your power to ruin her affair even if you decide you don't want him.

Treating him kindly will throw him off and confuse him about his affair. So please stop the lovebusting NOW.

The next step will be to implement a flawless Plan A. It will only last 3-4 weeks and if his affair does not end in that time, it is highly recommended you go into Plan B, which is complete and total darkness; a separation. This protects you from the emotional trauma of his affair.

So, lets focus on Plan A, the purpose of which is to negotiate an end to the affair. Plan A is a plan designed to attract your H back by meeting his needs and avoiding lovebusters while taking steps to ruin the affair. The way to ruin the affair is exposure. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposure ruins the fantasy. Exposure should be done in a strategic, methodical way by making up a list of key targets and calling, emailing, writing them all on the same day. This effects a tsunami to the affairees and often results in the end of the affair. At the very least it hastens its death. It is like bringing a crowd of onlookers into the crack house to watch the crack heads, no one likes getting high in front of others!

The most effective exposure targets are:

1. children
2. OP's spouse, if any
3. Parents of ALL parties, WS, BS, OP
4. close friends
5. pastor
6. employer [use the letter and method recommended by corporate attorney, BritsBrat]

7. facebook friends: a very impactful exposure is FACEBOOK. We have had several affairs killed recently by face book exposures to the WS and the OP's facebook friends. This is a very effective exposure because fb is a collection of the most key ppl in the OP and WS' lives. We have a form letter that is sent out by email to all the facebook contacts.

I will leave you some links to read, but I would strongly suggest you go to the bookstore today and get Surviving an Affair by Dr Harley. That is a must read.

Learn as much as you can today, stop lovebusting your husband, and then come back here and we can help you STRATEGIZE. And you may well decide to divorce your H in the end, but I promise you that your marriage is not hopeless at this point. Far from it.

Go read these links now:

Carrot and Stick of Plan A

Dr Harley on exposure

How to Survive Infidelity

Thanks lurioosi2....I know my H's claims he can't "abandon" his Ph.D. candidate in her last semester are bogus. However, it would require some explanation to his Dean and Department Chair and also would require finding another faculty member willing to accept Hot Pants under such circumstances. This would probably lead to exposure and he wants to avoid that at all costs, as he's still deluding himself that no one knows. And let's be frank, HE DOESN'T WANT TO GIVE UP HOT PANTS YET. He hasn't faced that fact that a choice is at hand....his marriage or Hot Pants. However, he may also not be facing that at this point, I may not give him that chance.

To answer ace....yes, I do have media contacts. I am a person less well known than my H, but with some professional following in the media. Its one of the reasons I am somewhat loath to go public with this whole thing and more inclined by the hour to just clean him out financially to get my pound of flesh.

Get that man back in your bed.

Here is the often touted quick study of Plan A (which it is imperative that you do now that you have been smacked by the discovery and had a little while to vent the horror. Your instinct to be angry and overwhelmed and trying to gain control of your wayward must be put aside for now (this in known as the Taker in marriage builders concepts and the Taker will just cause trouble for you right now. You must tell your Taker to lay back and observe the Giver in order to have the true potential of victory....whatever the outcome)

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A


The carrot of Plan A

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.


The stick of Plan A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

STOP punishing him right now, LLL. The OW is hoping for this reaction because she knows you will be throwing him into her arms. DON'T help that skankho. Lets give her a run for her money, ok? You have something she doesn't have, which is long term history.

She has no strategy, so you have an opportunity to bring this skankho to disgrace and ruin if you stick with us.

Something to consider, public exposure in the media is one of the best things that can happen to someone. People learn lessons this way. It is therapeutic and helps them learn to change their behavior. It also helps keep them accountable if they know others are watching. Public exposure of wrongdoing is a good thing, not a bad thing. Just look at Tiger Woods, hiding his true behavior from the public has just about destroyed his marriage by allowing to continue his affairs. If this behavior had been exposed a long time ago, he wouldn't be in the fix he is in today. However, now that it is exposed, he is getting help for his problem.

If everyone knows about your H's adultery, then he is less likely to do it again. Even if he is fired from his job, his next employer will be aware of his limitations and will watch him. Obviously, his employer needs to know what he has done because they are at legal risk when he sexually exploits the subordinate pool.

Melody.....Excuse me, but have you ever heard of herpes, crabs and other STD's???? I am running, not walking, to my family physician Monday to be tested since I have had relations with H during the past few months even though he denies physical relationship with Hot Pants (hotel bills and reasonable thinking would lead me to believe otherwise).

I WILL NOT have a man in my bed who is actively engaged in an affair.

Ladylonglegs, MelodyLane is the "superwoman" of Marriage Builders! You are fortunate to have her online today -- so please take notice of what she says and pay attention!

I agree that your marriage can be saved. Her point of trying because you have nothing to lose that you wouldn't lose anyway is also worth noting.

The mere fact that your husband would suffer by exposure is proof positive that exposure must happen! He has done the unthinkable, and now the consequences must be faced. That this affair can have a stake driven through its heart is undeniable. If you do not expose it, you enable it.

For now, put aside your advanced degrees and professional standing and let yourself be assisted by MelodyLane and the folks here who have the "advanced degrees" in marriage building!

Of course! Don't have sex with him, LL. But STOP lovebusting him right now. Stop attacking him. That only makes the OW look good.

Don't help the skankho!!

You don't have to have genital contact with him to have him in your bed. You can also meet the emotional need of sexual fulfillment (a big one on a man's list) with out it.

You can be alluring, hot, sensual without the act. Gotta stop the lovebusting and etc OR you will hand him over to the OW on a plate.

Do you want that? I doubt it and even if you did......why be in such a hurry?

Read the concepts on this site like craze and READ Surviving An Affair post haste!

It gets to be even 'fun' to follow the MB plan.....the Plan A part is empowering beyond belief.

Really.

I don't know what to do with my anger. No, if nothing else, I don't want Hot Pants to win out of spite for her. Even if I decide I don't want him, I want to ruin it for her.

Channel your ANGER into a strategic plan to ruin the affair. That is what you do with it. Use it in a way that helps YOU and hurts the SKANK.

Come vent to us NOT HIM. She is not attacking him, LL, you can be assured of that. Don't make that STD ho look good at your expense.

We can help you do this if you can get a grip on your emotions. And I KNOW YOU CAN. When the urge to slam or berate him comes, tell yourself "SHUT UP, SHUT UP, YOU ARE MAKING THE OW LOOK GOOD!!"

Keep in mind this

Anger is fear. Fear of loosing control of the relationship with your spouse, fear of things falling apart when you are not ready to deal with it, fear of many things rushing at you.

Just knowing that helps a bit BUT also....another good way to deal with the anger is to take long walks and let yourself vent during them.

Having friends who are not your waywards friends to vent to. Tell them about your anger and how you need them to vent it to so that you can put on your best game face with the husband.

Then, as you are plan Aing and putting on your best game face, let your inner soul KNOW that this is BEST for you if no other thing comes from it.

Learning to seperate the Ego from the true self is SO very useful in life.

Really challenging but really empowering.

You CAN do it and it makes YOU better for it.

Truly.

OK...if I expose here's the possible fallout:

1. H will lose face (I don't care about this)
2. Hot Pants will be exposed as having affair w/prof/advisor
(I don't care)
3. Media will likely get wind of this (I don't care but we'll be
in gossip columns of university and other press (don't
like it but would do it anyway)
4. Federal and state grants for millions to university would
be jeopardized as H runs major research division and misuse
of grant funds could result in funds being jerked from
university impacting many people negatively, possibly
job losses due to pulling federal and state money by
auditors. If I expose affair w/advisee, would probably
mean others would start to look at whether he used any
grant monies to fund trips w/advisee....easy to find...I
did pretty fast. Many grad student stipends and research
projects are funded by grants written by my H. (This
would hurt a lot of innocent people)

5. I would further make challenge to validity of Hot Pants
doctoral degree since grades/credits were earned while she
slept with her advisor/major professor who was giving
grades. I would do this publicly so her credibility with
academics and professionals in our field would be highly
suspect.

Thoughts?

Sounds good to me! Except that I would change the wording to:



It is the AFFAIR that would cause those consequences. And this is a risk that the OW and your WS were glad to take. So, don't YOU concern yourself about risks that they obviously ARE NOT concerned about.

Don't protect them from the consequences of THEIR CHOICES, LLL. That would be harmful to them.

I thinkone important thing to focus on is that it isn't the EXPOSURE that might cause negative fallout, it is the AFFAIR that causes the negative fallout. Exposure is a tool; the affair is the causative agent for all of this.

LLL, why would you be concerned about protecting them from risks when they WERE NOT? They took this risk willingly. They volunteered for this.

You need to tell him, when he wakes up that you were emotional when you threw him out and want him to come back to your bed and offer to carry his stuff up.

Do it.

Tell him you want the marriage to prevail (even if you have many doubts right now you must be appearing to be loyal and sure)
Do it

My thoughts on the exposure fall out are that you must calm yourself down enough (a couple days to work issues out in your mind) and

first

Shame on him for potentially messing up innocent people's lives! Shame!

second

When you expose, you do it matter of factly (others can give you examples of proper letter writing and face to face comments to make to those you expose to).

You are asking yourself about an Ethical choice to make about the exposure situation and it sucks that innocent people would be harmed. It truly does. You are doing the good and decent thing wondering about this. It is something he and the OW did NOT do.

Hopefully, another person can step in and take control of the grants and so on to minimize any damage. If not, the structure of the institution is really fragile and needs to be restructured.

I get it....but I'm still thinking....do I want all this grief in my life? Do I want to stir up hornet nests and have to endure the crap that will come with it?

I'm thinking of trading my knowledge for his money. Early retirement for me, live in Tuscany for a while. Italian men.....sounding better to me all the time. Sell out, clean him out and take off. I'm thinking of myself as a movie character, right?

What you need to keep in mind is that this plan will buy you time to figure out what you ultimately do want to do.

It is too soon to know for sure.

Acting as if you want to save the marriage will give you the choice for much longer. MUCH longer.

That is your power here.

Keep your power. Whenever you wonder if it is worth it.....note to self....."this is my power here"

YK?

I'll go one step further than MelodyLane:
Other than that, I see no down side. Do you?

LLL, I live in Italy and work in tuscany in the summers. There are positions you could apply to in Florence to teach a American universities.
As far as Italian men goes...they are the same as American men. Plus they tend to be a bunch of mama's boys.
Also, read Eckhart Tolle's books if you have not yet done so. Loss is a wonderful opportunity to get in touch with what is really meaninful in our life.
blessing

Why is he hanging around the house? I figured he'd be out the door and gone all day just to avoid me. I am being civil but having great strain trying to do anything more positive. I hate him right now. I don't deserve this.

LLL,

Decide soon whether you want to try to save the marriage, or justifiably follow through with divorcing your cheating husband. Nobody faults you either way. Dr. Harley -- as I believe was mentioned in this thread -- himself has often said that he supports those who wish to divorce a spouse that has broken their vows in this way.

But most couples want to try to save their marriage after thinking about it a while. Typically, it takes around 3 weeks from D-Day for a betrayed spouse to come around to that viewpoint, if they are going to.

The advice you're getting so far regarding exposure, "Plan A" of meeting his needs while avoiding being the cause of his unhappiness ("Love Busters") is to preserve that chance if you wish to take it. A couple weeks may make a world of difference in your decision, and like I said: most couples decide within about 3 weeks if they want to salvage the marriage from the train-wreck the unfaithful spouse created.

If you DO decide to save it, you'll have to eat some crow and admit you own 50% of the distress your marriage was in prior to the affair. You'd built independent lifestyles, and both of you were not exclusively having your most important emotional needs met by your spouse. He owns 100% of the damage his choice to have an affair caused, but you own 50% of the preconditions that allowed it to happen... as does he.

So there you stand on your choice. This forum is Marriage Builders, not Divorce Central. So you know what kind of advice you'll get here. Many marriages can fully recover from an affair, trust regained and all, by following Dr. Harley's program.

The book "Surviving An Affair" by Willard Harley and Jennifer Harley Chalmers is truly worth it whether or not you decide to salvage your marriage. It provides a road-map to recovery, and even if your marriage doesn't recover, it provides a superb plan for eventually walking away from your marriage with absolutely no regrets for the decision.

Your husband is conflicted. Around here we call this "cake eating" (as in having one's cake and eating it, too). He derives some emotional need from you; the OW is not able to fulfill some of his needs because the affair is not reality based. He wants his cake and eat it, too.

Your discovery probably provoked mock outrage in the other woman. "What, she KNOWS? How come you haven't left her, then?" She's probably delivered an ultimatum to him to start divorce proceedings with you or else she's gone.

So he has a choice he's thinking about right now:

1. Drop the other woman and try to reconcile with you. He's addicted to her, and every emotion in his brain is telling him this is a bad choice, but it's certainly in there.

2. Tell you he's filing for divorce (whether or not he does), or demand that you file for divorce, then that way he can run back to the other woman and say that the divorce is in-progress. Typically, this will involve a demand from him that you move from the house, or else an announcement that he will move out.

3. Figure out a lie to tell you to placate you about the affair, like telling you the affair is over and that he wants to reconcile, so that he can continue to have you meet his needs as well as the other woman. This is the typical strategy waywards employ, as lying has gotten them what they want so far. This strategy is called "cake-eating" around here, and men are a bit more likely to choose this course of action than women (though both sexes commonly do).

Your husband is following a script. He's trying to play nice with you to keep his options open while he debates those options in his mind: Drop, File, or Lie? Which one will give him what he wants most? What he wants right now is to find a way to preserve the status quo: keep the affair a secret, have her, and have you, too.


That's not typical behavior for an unexposed wayward. He'd only be "out the door and gone all day" if the other woman gave him a booty call.


None of us did, LLL. I lost 14 pounds and couldn't sleep well for weeks after finding out about my wife's affair. I despised her. I wanted nothing to do with her.

But I learned that if I wanted to save my marriage, there was a clear way with a decent success rate. I began Plan A immediately to preserve my options, and at least right now (6 months post D-Day) I feel that it's really worthwhile to save the marriage. If you decide it's worth saving, though, it will mean you're carrying the load of recovery for a while (typically, several weeks up to six months) before he starts participating actively in trying to recover.

It sucks that it's the betrayed spouse who usually ends up shouldering the responsibility of teaching themselves how to recover the marriage in order to get through to the wayward, but that's just the way it is.

Barnboy, I have to leave, but can you help in calming her down so she doesn't burn any bridges today? Like you said, I suspect the OW set this all up in the hopes she would throw her H out today. If LLL treats him well today, she will ruin the OW's plan.

Your post is awesome!

I'm not Barnboy ("Doormat_No_More") or MelodyLane, but I am probably going to be here a good part of the day (it's raining out and I'm clearing out the leftovers The Leopard didn't take).

Ladylonglegs, if you do nothing else, do this: Vent your anger and frustrations here. Do -not- engage in angry outbursts (AO), disrespectful judgments (DJ) or any "lovebusting" behavior with your husband right now.

You are in control, not he. You can determine the outcome.

If he truly wanted to be with OW for more than just the excitement, secrecy, adrenaline rush and fantasy of the affair, he would have already left you. This is your lever. You -can- make a difference.

Stay connected with us here. Let Barnboy and the people who have already walked the path you're on be your guides. You will be a better person for it no matter how things work out.

I guess I'm thinking to the future...what kind of marriage partner is he that he was so weak that when I was not able to give him as much time as we had devoted to each other all our married lives (due to my mother's sudden critical illness and eventual death) he turns to another woman for his emotional needs? Isn't there such a thing as being able to put himself second for even a little while due to extreme circumstances? Isn't this a reasonable expectation of a spouse? I did it without boinking another man while he had ill elderly parents. What do I get in return? Betrayal, lies, cheating, at a time I was admittedly preoccupied with concern, responsibility and ultimately grief over my mother's death. Now I think about the future. I'm 53. If I were to contract some illness that required extensive treatment or being unable to be my usual self for a while, I would be very unlikely now to believe he would be there for me. More than the current affair, this may be the deal breaker for me. Going forward into old age with any degree of trust.

LLL,

Your anger is very normal, but it is imperative that you step back from this and not react right now.

Give this time to settle in before you decide what to do.

Listen to the advice you are getting here. You have some absolutely wonderful people posting to you.

Your anger is a manifestation of your pain. You are an intelligent lady. Try to be cool before you make any decisions.

It is ultimately your decision as to whether you want to continue your marriage and work on recovery, or get a divorce.

Just don't make that decision today.

Best wishes!

Love in Christ,
Miss M

I had the same experience. Last year I came down with back problems. A month later, I was laid off from a job I'd had for a long time. Focusing on my health and my income caused me to reduce the amount of time and attention I could give to my marriage.

As long as everything was OK in dreamland, our marriage was "healthy." The moment -I- hit a speed bump, things collapsed (you can read my thread -- in my signature -- if you want to learn more). Weakness on her part? Yes, probably. As the wise ones here say, "husband and wife both share 50% of the problems that arose in their marriage. However, wayward spouse owns 100% of the decision to commit adultery." There is NO EXCUSE and NO JUSTIFICATION for committing adultery.

Understanding the lack of boundaries, or the conditions that made the affair possible is helpful in working toward OUR PERSONAL RECOVERY. We can't change the way another person thinks or behaves. Was he weak? Perhaps. Perhaps it was just a confluence of conditions that made it possible for him to behave this way. Chances are, if he were lucid right now, he wouldn't know any more than you why he did what he did!

But he's not lucid right now. And truth be told, neither are you. This is why the MB posters are asking you to bring it here rather than take it to "the house." The things you say and do with your husband right now can have long-term affects that neither of you will want to live with later on.

I'm trying not to say anything much to him. He's working on his laptop....for all I know emailing with her. I know I am not calm enough or rational enough to speak to him. I think right now silence is the best I can do. I'd throw up if I had to say anything nice to him. It would be fake.

I'm going to go out for a jog. I need to clear my head and get out of the same air he is breathing.

I understand what all of you are saying about giving myself some time to decide what I want and trying to make it through maintaining the relationship until I have less emotion and more rational decision making ability. I am trying to maintain a calm demeanor today.....give me time.

This is all good, LLL. Take some time for yourself. A jog (I'm a runner, too) is great for this sort of thing. The endorphins will help and so will the time to sort things out without distraction. I think you're handling this superbly!

((((((LLL))))))

I hope you feel a little better soon.

We all totally get what you are going through right now!

Love in Christ,
Miss M

LLL,

Good on you for taking some time out for a jog. A few "Love Busters" -- instances of being the source of your spouse's unhappiness -- far outweigh a few acts of kindness. If you can force yourself simply to avoid the following things for the time being, you're making great moves forward:

1. Selfish demands. Avoid demanding anything of him right now. The only exceptions to this rule are statements of what you would be willing to accept as good faith that he wants to recover, which I'll cover below.

2. Disrespectful judgments. You will want to call him on the carpet for his behavior, call him every name in the book, and he deserves it. Believe me, I know he deserves it. But refrain from saying things disrespectful about him -- or the other woman -- anywhere that he will hear or read. Keep your interactions with him consistently positive, or if not positive, at least neutral.

3. Angry outbursts. These are HUGE love-busters for everybody, so if he gets angry, walk away. If you start to get angry, walk away. Don't let anger ruin a productive conversation. My technique is to say, "I don't feel safe in this conversation anymore. I need to go elsewhere for a while."


There are at least two other big Love Busters that he's currently engaging in, which you must watch yourself about:

4. Independent Behavior. This is behavior that would hurt your spouse if your spouse knew about it. "Revenge Affairs", or RAs, fall into this category. For the time being, avoid seeking solace with any man. Avoid behavior that will hurt him... with two important exceptions, also detailed below.

5. Dishonesty. Be honest about yourself with him, share how you feel, but try to do it in a way that does not demand he change, show disrespect, or result in an angry outburst. If he tries to "fix" you by telling you you should not feel the way you do, one good response is "I'd love it if you wouldn't try to tell me how I feel."



REQUIREMENTS FOR RECOVERY

Be clear with him about what you expect as a bare minimum if there's to be any hope of recovering your marriage from his infidelity. These are statements of your needs, not demands from him, but he will try to call you various names when you state them. "Controlling", "demanding", "crazy", "jealous", and "overbearing" typically top the list. Be prepared. Here are the typical three requirements for recovery:

1. That he never see or communicate with the other woman in any way at all, ever again. This includes Extraordinary Precautions to prevent further contact. Every wayward will try to negotiate some reason for keeping the other person in their life: job requirements, that the affair was emotional but not physical, or physical but not emotional, or some other excuse. You cannot possibly recover if the other woman is in either of your lives. Thus you implement Extraordinary Precautions to preclude another affair... and these EPs even work during times of extreme stress once properly implemented!

2. That he commits to absolute, radical honesty with you. Dr. Harley calls this "transparency." This includes telling him everything about himself that he knows about himself, you knowing all of his passwords, having an expectation that you will snoop on him without telling him how, and so forth. He will rebuild trust with you by showing he is trustworthy and radically honest with you about his feelings at all times.

3. That he commits to a marital recovery program of your choice. Of course, most of us recommend Dr. Harley's courses, mentioned here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi9000_courses.html . My wife and I are following "Program #1", because we felt that we were both very motivated to recover. However, if you or your spouse are not motivated to recover, Dr. Harley recommends you pursue one of the options that have more accountability coaching to help you slog through those motivational swamps.


THE NECESSARY LOVE BUSTERS

There are a few -- very few -- Love Busters that a betrayed spouse should probably engage in to preserve their marriage. They are calculated, done with foresight, and are done in order to prevent much greater Love Busters from either partner in the future. I like to think of them as "peeling back the tape and gauze to treat the open wound with a raging infection underneath". The affair is the infection... and although these Love Busters may cause some temporary pain, they are necessary.

1. Exposure. You've already received a lot of advice on this. It will make your husband hate you. Many wayward spouses consider this a greater betrayal than the affair. But exposing the truth far and wide in a "nuclear" fashion -- like ripping off the band-aid quickly, rather than slowly -- will ultimately be the one action you can take that may swiftly and decisively end the affair.

2. Snooping. Radical Honesty is an important part of Dr. Harley's program... but don't give away how you keep tabs of your husband. If he knows, he can push the affair further underground. You need intelligence on who the affair partner is and how they communicate, and should work to preserve that knowledge. Ideally, you should come to a mutually-enthusiastic agreement on snooping, but a wayward is unlikely to agree to that until they are well into recovery. You have a right to know what is going on in your own life, and your husband's affair is very much part of your life. He has no right to "privacy" on any behavior that affects both of you. And since pretty much everything a spouse does affects their partner, your spouse has no right to secrecy from YOU, ever.

===============
THE PLAN

So you have the basic ingredients of a recovery plan: basic requirements for recovery that you will try to persuade him to follow over the next several weeks. What behavior to refrain from while in this persuading period. And what the exceptions are to that behavior.

Even if he agrees to your requirements, you haven't given up the option of divorce. You can choose it at any time, though certain "at-fault" options are typically closed to you a few months after discovery.

You will have many, many opportunities to choose divorce. You have only a very narrow window to choose recovery. Choose wisely.

Always Remember:

You have one chance (now) to recover your marriage.
You have the rest of your life to divorce him if need be.

After arriving home from my run and showering, went downstairs and H asked if I would listen to him for a minute. I sat down and he said he knows this is difficult and he wants me to understand that he knows he's engaged in an "inappropriate" relationship with Hot Pants but that it has only been an emotional, not physical relationship. He says they are friends and she is someone he got over-involved with and that he will only have what contact with her that's necessary to finish her degree in May. He said he cannot drop her as his student as it would raise eyebrows at work and would be unfair to her at this late point in her degree. He asked if we could agree to disagree on that but work on rebuilding our marriage. He then said he's sure I've been attracted to people I work with! I told him that's classic transference......blaming the other person for engaging in the behavior you're engaging in. I told him "if you're trying to justify your betrayal by saying you think I did it first, you're way off base."

I told him that basically what I understood him to be saying to me was that his career and Hot Pants getting her degree took presidence in his judgement over our marriage/relationship and my emotinal comfort and trust of him. He said his career must be his business. I told him it was until he started romantic relationships at the office. Then it became my business because he was playing with my future when he crossed that line. I told him I refuse to discuss this further until he tells me how he will cut her from his life. Otherwise, we have no basis for discussing how to mend our relationship. He said that is unreasonable, I should be able to have friends. I told him he's already told me its an "inappropriate" relationship. That doesn't qualify as a friendship to me. I left the room and took the dogs outside for a few minutes to regain my composure.

What planet is he living on? Does he really think I'm going to stand by while he continues on with Hot Pants pretending she's just another student?

You done good !

Planet Recto-Cranial.

Yes. He believes his own bullchit at this point.

It's called fogbabble, and it is stunning to hear this crap come out of an otherwise intelligent person's mouth.

An above average IQ does not prevent alien fogbabble.

Oh, and while I'm at it .... his degree of fame in his field causes increased entitlement.

He thinks he's above the fray.

He ain't.

When I just came in, he was feverishly writing on the computer, then left without telling me goodbye or where he was going......bet I know.

I'm thinking I need to install a keylogger on his computer. Would love to know what's being said between them.

Put a GPS on his vehicle.
There is a thread about this.
I'll try to find it.

And, yes to the keylogger.

get over to www.spectorpro.com and download eblaster right now. It takes about 3-4 minutes to install and you can program it to email the reports to another computer. It costs about $100 and is an awesome, easy program.

Mel - can you find the GPS thread?
I can't find it.

You are wise to not negotiate with a terrorist. He is trying to negotiate your demise and doesn't understand YET that he has lost all leverage. There can be no negotiation when it comes to adultery. There is no marriage to "save" as long as he continues his contact with the OW. Of course he cannot turn an adulterous affair into a "friendship;" that is ludicrous.

LLL, this is why you must expose him at work. The only solution is to end their contact at work, and he won't do that unless he is forced to do so. You are in a position where family and friends exposure will not do the trick; only a workplace exposure coupled with friends and family will effectively end this affair.

Is it on Spying 101? Or is there a better one?

Add: One (or more) voice-activated recorders (VAR). Available at Radio Shack.

Build an incontrovertible case about his affair. Then, when you expose you can wax it 'with extreme prejudice,' as they say.

Thanks Melvin.

Isn't 40 pages of emails between them with such classic lines as "I can't stop thinking about you..." (Hot Pants) and "Can you get away to meet me for dinner....I can leave the meeting early...I'm having Hot Pants withdrawal..." (Dr. Prof.)? I think the Dean and Provost might find those lines among others interesting.....as well as my attorney who I will hire next week. Had a girlfriend who was divorced a year ago and had a real bulldog who makes other attorneys quake.....I'm lining up my ducks.

You need to expose this affair.

Tell WH's parents, his siblings.

Then email the college president, then CC the Director of HR, the board of directors, and the VP in charge of academic standards. Tell them about the affair and the OW sleeping her way to a degree. Ask them what are they going to do about this.

Your WH is trying to manipulate you into staying quiet. This shows how much WS's fear exposure becaue they know how effective it will be at bringing pressure down on them.

You are frustrated because you are getting no where. Exposure will move things fast in your case.

H's parents are deceased; he's an only child; we have no children; I have no living parents and 1 sister who already knows and wants to hire a hitman. I have 1 very close girlfreind who knows. We have lots of couples we socialize with who don't know, and of course, workplace.

OK...looking for stuff....can't access his cell records...university pays for his cell phone. Went in his home office and nothing incriminating yet....however he's obviously had time to cover himself now that he knows I know about Hot Pants. We have one joint checking account we both contribute to pay home expenses, but we both have individual checking accounts for the rest of our incomes and I don't know where his checkbook is. Credit cards are totally individual.....his Blackberry manages his life otherwise and its never away from him....even sleeps with it by the bed for the past two years.

Going to try to install the keylogger on his laptop while he's gone....guess it'd help me with strategy....

Yes, this way you can monitor him.

TWO YEARS??? Ladylonglegs, something tells me your H has been errant for longer than just the several months he's been chasing Ms. Hot Pants.

Possessive behavior of a Blackberry phone is one of the signs of a wayward spouse. So is hiding OW names and phone numbers under "guy friends" identities on them.

DO. IT. NOW.

I have a very bad feeling about this. You need to snoop, discover and then expose. Your 40 pages of email may not be enough. But if you can get incontrovertible proof (as my attorney told me, "that would convince a judge"), then you should go nuclear exposure.

Please keep posting here. In the short time I've been here, I've seen a lot of "high level" infidelity turn out to be way much more when the BS starts snooping...

If you can get ever get your hands on it, you can download and install flexispy at www.flexispy.com. Knowledge is power in killing affairs.

And that gives you a very good clue as to when this affair started. Ask yourself: when exactly did he start sleeping with it nearby? That's probably about the time the affair started heating up...


What that will give you is specific information you might need, but not necessarily a strategy. It will help you know when he's lying about contact, what story he's spinning to the other woman (you can be SURE he's lying to her, too), etc. Make sure you archive off the old logs somewhere secure periodically... printed out and stored in that safe deposit box would be good.

I'd suggest a voice-activated recorder in his car, too, if you can manage it. Gives you additional evidence of contact so you can know the truth when he spins a story on you again. And if you're at all interested in pursuing an at-fault divorce, and it's legal in your state, hiring a private investigator to get photos of the lovers together is worthwhile as well.

Be aware, too, that on rare occasion husbands are scared straight right away by their wife's discovery and subsequent exposure of the affair. It's not the normal response, and you shouldn't bet on it, but it happens from time to time.

If his cell is paid by the school and he has used it for affair contact....you have a big gun there. He is using "company property" for his impropriety.

OK...eblaster is on his laptop. I'm getting more angry by the minute....I've been reduced to a spying wife. He's not home....I'm not hanging around here waiting for what???? Going out to my favorite restaurant to try and see if anything looks appetizing. I haven't eaten all day.....

Be forewarned that what you discover from keylogger is going to make you angrier than now.

Keep a cap on it or it will spoil your source of info.

Learn to stop and breathe when reading reports and to not let them boil over and blow at him. Your instincts/Taker will want you to SO BAD! whatever you read, remind yourself it is fantasy concocted by two people who LOVE intrigue and illicit you know what due to the excitement and it whips them up into a crazy frenzy of yuck.

Also........it most likely has been a PA and the friendship card is script of waywards. You will find out this when you read Surviving An Affair. In the book, Sue says she and Greg (OM) can be friends since the affair is over...lol. Gotta love them entitled foggy folk. Well, they do have endearing qualities for sure. LOL.

As I was getting dressed to go find dinner, I just fell into a sobbing heap on the floor. I can't believe where I'm at....I've been living with a liar and cheat, my dear mother who was a great mom and friend died just weeks ago, and I'm here alone wondering where my H is and whether he's with her. Thank God for my wonderful pals, my dogs, who came in and started licking me and probably wondering what was happening.

I don't want to be this pathetic person. I am a smart, strong, attractive person and I have always prided myself in being control of my life. I'm not sure I want anything to do with H, but by God, he's going to regret the day he decided to betray me. I probably could have dealt with an honest, forthright discussion where he came to me and said he wanted out of our marriage. But to become a sneak, cheat, liar.... and make my life a lie as well....I am so confused as to what has been true and what has been false in our life together.

First, I want to speak to my lawyer. I might be better off to get a really favorable financial settlement from him and run to a new life in exchange for not telling what I know. I have to go with what is true to my nature, and its not being anybody's fool.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{[[ladylonglegs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

You will be ok, no matter what happens. You are wise to take the time to think this over. We will be here for you, friend.

You sound a lot like me. If you REALLY think you want out, I can help you. Are you in an at fault state? also, you can take your settlement, THEN EXPOSE him and blow up his life/career..DUDE

You are definitely different than most of these other BS on here. I'm an outlier just like you...DUDE

I am in a no fault state. I had a close friend who is a professional woman who was divorced a year ago in this state and she was basically told its 50/50 and especially, I'm sure in the case where I make a little more money than my H and I have a Ph.D. and we have no children. All of our financials are separate except joint ownership of two homes and a household expenses account. From friend's experiences, it seems it would be an even split. HOWEVER, I have pretty good knowledge and tangible proof of H misusing government grant funds for travel to entertain his affair partner. Its all in a safety deposit box along with 40 pages of emails between them (most on university time). One of the emails describes their plans to be together at a professional conference in another state, and another is their exchanges with each other after the conference about what a wonderful few days it was to be together "uninterrupted". That, along with the fact he's involved with his advisee.....I can blow him out of the water. Maybe he'd like to exchange two houses, the dogs and all other furnishings for me keeping my mouth shut. We could work out a little contract.......

Yep, Welcome to our club. Sorry you are here. As everyone is suggesting the best thing you can do is expose the A. A's are meant to be kept secret. Exposure is punching WS in the nose and waking him up to the fact that when you choose a behavior you choose the consequence.

Gg

OK, I'm a CPA not a lawyer, but I would be careful about extortion. You need to phrase it to him that you have all that information. How can he ensure you are taken care of financially since you are going to be a single woman again. Let him make the offer. Iif you have any money you want hidden, move it to PHYSICAL GOLD/SILVER bullion w/ a relatve you can trust. If you want out, lets do this right...DUDE

ladylonglegs,
Caution: Exposure is to end A and possible consider R your M if that is something you want. Exposure should not be a means of revenge.

Gg

She is using exposure as an asset, leverage, to get compensated financially for the part of her life that was STOLEN! DUDE

He just came in....went to his study.....laptop with keylogger may start to pay off soon. I think the setting was for info every 30 minutes to be sent to my computer. Didn't say a word to me....acted like I'm not here....(I'm sitting at the kitchen table with my laptop and a glass of wine.)

Really, how long can you live like this? My home has always been my haven....where I went for peace, warmth, love, pets, getting away from the craziness of the work day.

We'll walk you through this..What kind if wine? Some Chard? I would love some wine but I'm on this dam diet...DUDE

gg615....ever hear the phrase "Living well is the best revenge?" I think I'd be nuts if I didn't have at least a few revenge fantasies to give me a few chuckles.

There is a concept called REVENGE AFFAIR...Don't do that, use your leverave if you want out. If I hadn;t been so pissed and had a RA, I'd have at least another 100K..DUDE

When you get the first report, you can change the settings REMOTELY to send you reports at greater frequency.

Dude,
I understand. I was trying to the make the same point. It seemed to me she was planning to use evidence for possibly other purpose.



Gg

Dude, someone brought us Coppola Black Label 2006 Claret over the holidays and I guess my H must have opened it in the last day or so...so I'm sipping it but don't really like it much.....I'm usually a pino drinker....Italian roots.....

Oh, GOTCHA!! DUDE

Oh Lady, I understand this better than you think - been there for sure...

Gg

This is nice....like having a crowd of friends with me talking in the kitchen and drinking wine......I'm getting kind of wired about the keylogger.....any chance he can find it somehow? I used the one recommended here.....

Are you kidding me? He is so entrenched in his affair. I'm telling you. They get so stupid you can RAPE him financially if you choose to do so...DUDE

I doubt he will be able to find it. If you get a chance when he is gone, go run his anti-spyware program and see if it comes up. I doubt it will, but if it does, just program the antispyware to IGNORE it.

My FWH never found the one I have and it's an older program than the ones recommended here.

It's the last thing on wayward's minds anyway - they are to busy thinking of fantasy and getting next fix.

Gg

Does eblaster send the reports like right away or does it take a few minutes after he is logged on for 30 minutes? I guess I'm assuming he's on the computer up there....he could be on his Blackberry, but its hard to type much on those small keys.....guess we'll see....

LL, did you run a test email when you set it up?

Yep...they are on email (don't know why they wouldn't IM...faster). She is saying this week is pretty packed with meetings re her grant work (she works for him part-time doing a project on one of his grants which pays tuition probably and gives her a salary for part-time work while she finishes her dissertation...this would be a typical way his grants work). He is talking about some report that is due to the state reporting on 4th quarter 2009 expenditures.
Then at the end she says "We need to keep low key now so that if we're together in the future at __ (university) functions, I'm not seen as the reason you're marriage failed. I don't want to be seen as the homewrecker and be the outcast ..."

[censored] (my comment)

See, she knows that exposure will ruin her gig.

Does she have a facebook account?

Don't know. I don't so I guess maybe I'll have to join (never with my real name) so I can see.

Lady,
I'm so sorry -

Gg

If you're going to sit there and watch their online billing and cooing, essentially in real time, I hope you've got a cork for your mouth, and all the weapons and heavy kitchen implements are secured...because keeping quiet (and not prematurely revealing the source of your info) is going to be harder than anything you've done yet.

tl

This hurts, because its going on as I sit here....but it's not that I didn't know. 40 pages of emails had so much online time between them ... it was the real shocker. I expected this....feel like I'm exhausted from the last few days. I so appreciate the support I've gotten here today.

You know, I understand how this crap can lead to murder....it pushes you to the edge emotionally and what you want is to do something to make it end. No fear. An expression of my despair and anger, but like I said earlier, I'm no fool.

And no, I'm not going to sit here and read any more of their adolescent crap. I'm tired of thinking, tired of feeling. I'm going to get my babies (dogs) and go to my bedroom and get in bed with them and watch some tv (or more likely go to sleep from exhaustion). A little junk food might help too....and.... He can go f__K himself!

Like the previous post says, you'll have to be the best actress and act like you know nothing tonight.

Gg

I hear ya. I enjoy watching the show "snapped".

Gg

I think you are too much like me. NO FOOL and won't be taken for a FOOL. I'm afraid you are going to blow. I'm predicting you tell him and that B off w/in the week. I hope you don't, but I think you will. Its the smart, attractive, together people that LOSE IT when they their W is bangn some LOSER or their H is seeing some fat, ugly chick..DUDE

Why Mel...you tricky Texas dog.

Hey Lady! I just finished reading this thread and you have gotten great support here, as I did back 6 years ago. Wow, how time flies when you're having fun!

First, I just want to send you a big hug of support too. What you are going through is one of the most difficult things one can face, being betrayed by the person you love and trust the most. I can identify with so much of what you have written, like I'm sure many here can. I had been with my H for about 26 years when I found out about the little bimbo OW who was his office manager. My H also became very critical during the A and I knew something was up. My elderly father was getting very sick and I was stressed to the max between being his major caretaker, 2 kids, and trying to finish grad school. Oh, the OW went after my H about one month after his father died and he slipped right into it because he was very needy, and my plate was too full. Anyhoo, the A was full on when my dad died. What I call the double whammy, an affair plus an extra tragedy while the A is going on.

I found MB right before d-day. Before I knew the whole truth I was somewhat concerned about telling H to fire her because (1) wonder if she wasn't having an A with him, and (2) it might kill his business because he has a small business and she ran the office. The good folks told me it wasn't my problem, it was H's problem. When I got proof of the EA part of the A I told him to fire her immediately. This probably isn't recommended here, but I then called her before he could get to her and basically blew her out of the water. The little "B" didn't know what hit her.

I did Plan A like crazy, calling my H every name in the book inside my head. She had to work for him for one hellish month and luckily didn't sue him for sexual harassment, even though she definitely was a very equal, pursuing participant in the A.
I didn't have to expose because my H dumped. He also knew if he didn't get rid of her and end the A I would expose their great love to the world. I became a great Sherlock Holmes and found her love letters. In spite of also sobbing on the floor on many occasions, those letters made me LOL. The stupidest thing I've ever seen.

Like you I didn't know if I wanted my H back, but I sure didn't want the "B" to get him. So I worked my butt off to end the A and knowing I then could figure out if I even wanted the M anymore. So just take it one step at a time. These As are bullcrap. Nothing more! Addictions! Hang in here and keep venting.

That was one of a few motivators I had too!
Didn't realize how competitive I actually was, but I was bound and determined that I would win. And yes, change my mind later if I wanted to.

LLL, reading those chats IRL, I hope you have piece of leather to chew on .....
Keep your composure, here's another reminder, do not reveal your snooping tactics, under no circumstances, don't care how much he pisses you off, don't reveal!

Expose this affair.

And .......

I felt the same way. I used to wonder if something was wrong with me...that my motivation was purely that I wanted to WIN over the b*tch and didn't want her to win.

I think it's fairly common and perhaps even a blessing in disguise...if I'd stopped to think about it too much, I would have just filed and tossed him out.

LLL

As the BS of a long term M, I know how you feel. I wanted so desperately to save my M. We were so close to being set for retirement, and had planned to move into a smaller home etc....

My XWH was the champion cake eater. Almost a whole year of d days, false recoveries and bad Plan B's for me. I finally had one too many ddays and went into a final Plan B through the PLan FU door. My D was final in Dec.

I had all of the same feelings that you do now. The one thing that I will tell you whether you recover your M or not is that you must try, and try as much as you can for as long as you can. In other words, follow this program. Plan A for as long as you can stand it (I think 3-4 weeks is recommended), and then do the proper Plan B letter before you go into Plan B.

The one thing that you don't want to do is leave your M without feeling that you did everything possible to save it. Now that I am D'd, I have no regrets. I look back and know that I fought the good fight and there was nothing else that I could do. The credit is now on my XWHs tombstone, not on mine.

Three years and still divorced??! I think she is out on that based on her posts. DUDE


M 36 years in May '09
12/25/06 - Dday - WH promised NC. Plan A in effect. Thought we were in recovery.

6-3-07 - Dday#2 Found out NC never took place and A never ended. Found MB NC promised again, but WH would not write NC letter.

9/07 - Dday #3. Still lying and sneaking around. Plan B implemented
WH wants nothing to do with me

Divorced as of 12/09

I can't believe I could sleep at all, but from sheer exhaustion I think I got about 6 hours before waking around 4 a.m. with my mind racing.

Luckily, I have a pretty light work schedule today, maybe because its MLK birthday, and will use some of my time to get myself together and make a strategic plan. My first order of business is to talk to my friend's bulldog divorce attorney and get myself lined up with the best legal advice I can find. I
Once I know where I stand legally for sure, I will go forward.

I am also going to probably, unless attorney thinks its not necessary, hire a PI to get pictures of them sneaking around, and to check all sources to find out if H has a paper trail of phone records, credit cards, checks, whatever that further documents their relationship. I want solid proof other than my emails and print outs of their eblaster reports so when I go with exposure, the "boys" (administrators at the university) can't say I don't have enough for them to take any action. You see, I have almost NO faith that work exposure will result in anything being done. Yes, universities have ethics policies and regs on conduct of profs, but having lived in and around this environment for 25 years, I've seen the climate and while I know most of these personnel things are private and I may not know all the fallout, not much change can be seen even when affairs are pretty blatant. Also, the Dean of my H's area is himself married to a 20 year younger former grad student. He left his last university after an affair w/this woman while still married to his first wife. This was of course gossip at the time he was interviewed and hired. I don't know the other higher-ups as well to know their situation, but a couple of them have awfully young wives to be the old codgers they are. My guess is everyone in his office staff and grant staff already know.....its just not "out there" and H and Hot Pants are oblivious and think they are being so sneaky. Must be a real turn on for them.....

I am going to have a hard time doing a Plan A. I need a little more time to decide which way I'm going, but I practically throw up at the thought of talking to him. I am maintaining a neutral demeanor in the last day, but I honestly don't know if its in me to act like I like him. How do people do this when you're talking about someone who has treated you like this and probably has been laughing at you behind your back because you're so easy to fool?

You can phone counsel with Dr. Harley. It may be money well spent. Even if you do not know about your final descision about where you stand about saving your M, he may be able to help you with your current plan of action.

He is very good. I think you are getting good advice here. You seem to be slowing down and thinking about this, that is good.

Good morning, LL. I used to manage only about 3 hours of exhausted sleep in the early days. I can so relate!

I think you're doing very well on the logistical front. I did the same. I have always had a problem expressing the emotional side of me, so it was harder to cope with the constant rush of thoughts and ideas.

Yes to the attorney. Yes to the P.I. Especially if you think things could get ugly between the two of you should it become a matter for the court. My attorney also advised me that if I wanted to pursue an adultery or "alienation of affection" case against my wife, I'd better have incontrovertible proof of her affair. Emails -- unless they are graphically specific -- usually aren't enough. Getting photos of his car and hers parked outside her place, a hotel or similar meeting place are good. Getting photos of them together even better. In 'flagrante delicto' is concrete.

Please make sure that you don't reveal you are snooping. Doing so, even if you accidentally tip your hand, will drive the affair deeper underground. It's better to act baffled, hurt, loving and clueless while you don your deerstalker and hoist your magnifying glass.

Perhaps not. It didn't help when I exposed to OM's work in my case. OM was/is apparently a known philanderer, so his work simply turned a blind eye. However, your husband is engaging in activity that is not only immoral, but unethical. He is boffing a student, which means she is receiving preferential treatment. Exposure at work may not spark a response from the Board of Regents, but it will certainly impact her future in academia, and taint the reputation of all concerned.

Oh, how the mighty fall. What I found in my case was that those I thought would have the greatest impact did nothing (OM's wife, for example), and those who I thought had no influence at all caused the most disruption (OM's landlady). Two months after I exposed, my wife was still furious about my "harassment" of her. That alone was proof to me that my exposure had an effect and was worth it.

For your emotional support, I recommend you do what I did: Come here and vent. "Camp" here if you must; there were days that I would virtually engage in ongoing discussions to keep myself from going insane, or worse, blowing the Plan.

I'm rooting for you, Ladylonglegs. I know you can do this. I know too, that you will survive and be stronger and healthier as a result.

Thanks for being here for morning coffee Fred and Barbicat. Being on this sight in the past day or so has been a life-saver. I have close friends and my sister to talk to, but you can't interfere in their lives 24/7 to listen to your racing thoughts, breakdowns and murderous ideas that pop in your head. You will probably hear stream of consciousness thoughts today as I will likely take this laptop to work and keep it open on my desk as I TRY TO ACTUALLY DO SOME WORK! I don't want to leave this laptop home as it has the eblaster incoming reports on it. However, my H will probably not be using his laptop as he doesn't take it to work. However, MLK Day is a university holiday, so technically, he might work at home today, but then that wouldn't allow him to see Hot Pants......

As I look at this soap opera, I feel lucky that I am in no way dependent on my H for my future security. I can't imagine how much more devastating this would be when you don't know how you will support yourself or weather the division of assets or must fight with a mean-spirited person to get child support.

I lecture frequently to women's leadership groups and business women, as well as college students on women's business issues. I have always talked about the need for women to be in charge of their own finances, to have a "life plan", to know about investing, retirement plans, etc. Now, it all seems so much more real when you find out how what you thought was a good relationship and well-ordered life can be sabotaged without your knowledge for a long period of time. Really shakes your trust in others in general...hopefully, I won't become too jaded in future trust of others.

I am at work today LL, but like you, MLK Day will likely keep things slow. Please do as I did (and still do from time to time), and let this place be your "room full of friends" while you sit, ostensibly alone, at your computer.

OK....the game is changing already. I just walked through the house and looked out front....H's car is gone. I ran upstairs....he's not in the house. Maybe since I now know everything, he sees no reason to hide what he's doing.

I'm going to get dressed and get out of here. I'm taking the dogs to the office with me....I need their emotional support and I have such an informal office environment that I can do it when I want occasionally and when the schedule's light. There's a park across the street from the office to walk them in when I feel like I'm going to scream or kill someone today.

Once my wife admitted to me her affair, she thought she was being "respectful" by not texting (her favorite communication method with OM) in front of me. By "not in front of me" that meant she would hold her Blackberry aside as though I couldn't see what she was doing. She was not discreet or circumspect.

However, since it is out in the open, you need to start putting your ducks in order. If you can, contact your attorney TODAY (yes, it's a holiday -- but that means your H is similarly handicapped). Just because we caution you against angry outbursts and blowing your snooping activities does not mean being a doormat.

I admire you LLL. You have inspired me to contact a lawyer today. I have been postponing it...but you know what..? my H was a lot sleezier than yours (if there are degrees of sleeziness) and I have been a doormat for so long for him that now I think I want to find out what my rights are.
I think you are on the right track and you do have an advantage over many female BS because you are finacially independent and educated. Given that, if you do not feel you want to spend the rest of your life with a liar and a cheater...all my respect to you.
However, if I were you, I would teach a lesson to both your H and hot pants before I say "arrivederci" to both...e "buona fortuna"! (goodbye and good luck)
blessing

The way you make yourself do it is to remind yourself that you are helping the OW when you attack him. Acting on emotion is to throw him into her arms, the very thing she is hoping for. From a strategic standpoint, that works against you. This is why Plan A is only recommended for 3-4 weeks for women. Just long enough to get your ducks in a row while you get your legal issues settled in preparation for a separation. So, when you do go DARK in a Plan B, the last taste of you is GOOD. This will confuse him and cause conflict in his affair if he has FOND memories of you.

On the other hand, if you attack him, then you throw him into the arms of the OW and he is HAPPY when you go into plan B. That helps the affair and decreases the odds of any reconciliation. [you want to keep your options open at this point]

You have to be strategic to inflict the most harm on the affair.

Secondly, workplace exposures affairs RARELY result in the loss of a job. What it does is ruins the fantasy of the affair at work because it is no fun to carry on when everyone knows and is sneering at you. HR usually calls them in separately and interviews them. It is very uncomfortable for the affairees.

You are doing great in a horrific battle situation, LLL. Hang in there!

Its been a year and a half for me. I sleep like a baby. You are a strong woman. You will be just fine w/ or w/out this fool. DUDE

See a lawyer, get good legal advice, but remember lawyers do divorce, not marriage recovery. They do not understand MB and it's methods.

If you want to recover or not at this point you need to still bring pressure to end this affair.

Use this day off to expose everyone including work.

My XWH accused me of hiding money. I didn't, but sure wish that I had..... (Hint)

You have some good things going for you. OW wrote that she doesn't want to be known as a homewrecker. Our little OW wanted to be secretive for a while also so no one would suspect she was the cause of our break-up if it occurred. If you expose everyone will know that fact no matter how they spin it. I'd expose to her fellow students if you can get a class roster with emails. If she is working in the field, has an internship, etc., you can expose there. Talk to her ex-H and find out if she has had previous As. Embarrass the crap out of her so she knows she picked the wrong lady to mess with.

The other thing is that the media tone has changed regarding As. They have become real jokes with the silly texts and emails being laughed at. Think of some of the recent idiot WHs in the news over the past year. I doubt your H would like his ridiculous emails exposed if they come up on his computer.

Concerning your H, it helped me a lot to actually think of him as an alien. It's like they are on crack. I remember writing on MB, while H was in the room, telling folks here how he really is an alien. Having any kind of a sense of humor helps.

Finally, you are financially independent. I wasn't, but I had pretty good self-esteem and knew there was no way I'd allow cake-eating. You've got the power. And whatever happens, you will be alright!

I would start moving money WEEKLY from bank accounts into physical gold/silver and some crappy greenbacks. I'd reduce my 401K contr to ZERO and move these amounts into gold/silver. I'd build up some serious evidence and have my divorce papers drawn up w/ an 80/20 split. I'd then BUST HIM w/ the evidence and tell him I'm willing to give him my evidence, if he "TAKES CARE OF ME" by signing the divorce decree as is and noone will ever know what he did. DUDE

Others may poo poo it Dude, but I agree. I would put money under my mattress if I had it to do over again. My XWH took me to the cleaners besides spending thousands on his trailer trash ho....

Today has been a fast pace. I've been busy and able to contact a lot of people even though I thought holiday would slow things down.

I've actually accomplished quite a lot. Had a long phone interview with friend's bulldog attorney. He was quite nice, informative and knowledgeable and I have an appointment tomorrow afternoon to meet with him and bring in some financial overviews for him as well as copies of what I have so far on H and OW. I will formally retain him tomorrow as I liked his take on things and he has a stellar reputation. I have a couple of attorney friends who said he's the best as well as my girlfriend.

He has advised I hire PI to get pictures and more hard evidence as since H and OW legitimately have reason to meet (she's his advisee and she works on grant part-time for him), they need to be caught in compromising place or act to really seal the evidence. He referred me to a PI who I called and is coming to my office later today and says his firm can take up the issue immediately. I'm hoping it won't take too long to get the goods on them.

I talked to him about exposing now to H's university administrators, colleagues, friends, etc., and he said it might impact them at the university and embarrass them, but it would not put me in a better negotiation place with H if I wanted to go for more than 50/50 split of assets. Knowledge is power and he suggests we wait until I've made a firm decision if I'm going straight to divorce....if so, then I have stuff my H might rather not be made public and a quiet settlement might be more advantageous to me.

So, I feel like I'm in a bit stronger position to play my hand, whatever I decide it will be.

hopefully your spyware stays active so that you can provide some extra intel to your PI!

It gives you a big headstart. Have you checked out the rest of the spying thread? GPS might help as well.

I'm hoping the PI might take care of all needed snooping or setting up GPS......I wouldn't know how....

Good JOB!! Sounds a lot like what someone else told you! GO FOR 80%!! I could have gotten AT LEAST 70%! My fwxw's reputation was worth that much to her. But no, I had to get too damn pissed and emotional...DUDE

Which is more important your marriage or divorce.

You have your own wealth, career. Cheating doesn't help much in front of a judge any more. Being you can support yourself judge is not going to give anything.

So your best bet is to expose now. This lawyer maybe the best lawyer for divorce. His interests and yours are not the same.

Not the same?

Yes not the same. This lawyer will not make money if you do not divorce WH.

It is in your best interest is to take time to process this information before you decide to R or D.

What you need to do now is end this affair. You will do this by doing a plan A. And by doing a complete exposure.

Whether or not the WH gets fired his employer the college needs a wake up call. When exposing the A ask the college if it ok for the female students to sleep their way to an advanced degree.

The least that should come out of this is that the OW will have to do her work now, maybe get suspended, up to expelled. WH and his peer's will not be so quick in the future to compromise academic standards in the future.

Expose. Send the message that is a college profesor career, benefits, health insurance, pension, is not worth risking for some strange.

Most of the peeps on here aren't up on financial matters. They're all into emotions and crap, while you and I are thinking ahead like a chess match. Gold is my bishop, and silver is my Queen...DUDE

LLL,

I think you have been wise to not react too quickly.
Stay cool.

You have some decisions to make which will dictate which methods you employ.

I don't think you should jump into exposing him until you have thought out how you want this to end. If it can be a bargaining chip for you -- then save it.

You're not in denial, which really helps! Because soooo many wives come here not willing to believe he could really be having a physical affair and soooo ready to believe any little thing their husbands tell them.

You may see things via your keylogger that make you decide to divorce. There is nothing hurt by waiting.

So your revenge affair was NOT about "emotions and crap", but was simply you "thinking ahead like a chess match."

The rain is gone...

tl

Did you not read my other post. Had I not gotten emotional(RA, etc), I would be 100K richer right now, at least. Since then, as I've healed and sobered up, I'm back to my strategery self. She needs a strategery. I wish somone on here would have helped me think of things financially instead of emotional, bashing me and such. But hey, I did it, its all on me. Not LLL though, not on my watch. DUDE

I think this is very good advice. Right now her emotions are driving the bus, and she shouldn't make a hasty decision. But financially, I would proceed as though you are going to D. Protect your assests, then if he ever gets his head out of his intestines and really goes for recovery of the M, you will have things protected.

And if you do decide to D, work it out. My XWH turned nasty and wouldn't settle and I spent over $40K on atty fees and I'm sure he did too. Senseless.

I didn't hire a P.I. (I did the research myself, and got all the evidence I needed within a week) but what I've heard is that they can pretty well get the goods in just a day or two.

Waywards aren't that smart about covering their tracks. Especially if they don't know they're being tracked.

I know this site is for saving marriages and that exposure and bringing the affair into the light is a pretty effective way to take the romance and fantasy out of it. However, if I expose them now before I've decided if I want him anymore, I give up a huge bargaining chip.

If I decide to divorce him right away, we can meet, negotiate and I can either agree to a favorable settlement (I'm thinking both houses, all furnishings, dogs, boat and two of our three cars) and each of us keeps all other personal assets which have always been separate anyway. I go away quietly with nice settlement, or I go for what would likely be a highly publicized court proceeding, file alienation of affection suit against OW, send documentation of possible misuse of government grant funds to feds and state, and see where he ends up. I probably won't come out as well either if we go to court as publicity doesnt' mean I'd get anything more than 50/50 split. However, I would ask to be reimbursed for any conjoined funds I could prove were spent entertaining OW.

I know, OW would get H maybe, but frankly, I'm not sure I care, and once things are settled, I'm sure I could indirectly make it know WHO is responsible and the fact that her degree may be based on sexual favors to her advisor. Oh, and I'm a much bigger name in our field than she'll ever be.....and I can get not so favorable reviews of her out without a second thought.

I sound mean. Not my usual role, but these two folks played me for a fool.....they should fear me now. I'm sure Hot Pants has no idea that I can play with the big boys in hard ball. H knows, and I think it will make him think twice once we sit across a table and I show my hand.

You are my HERO! I've never seen a BW come on here with such skill and deciciveness.(COLD AND CALCULATING) DAMN that could have been me. I was such a strategic person. I did get the toys though, so se la vi! I say dump the fool and become a cougar..DUDE

LLL,

I know it's tempting to do a Dresden on his sorry butt, but don't make any rash decisions. You two do a have a long shared history that ol' Hot Pants can't match. There's also a reason that the MB method is based on working with addicts. A's are a form of addiction. And people are allowed one mistake. ONE not two.

OTOH, you have every right to blow him up. Just make SURE that's what you want to do. Just don't turn it into a Pyrrhic victory, where you wonder down the road what would have happened if you'd tried to R things.

But, I admit, having the power you have makes me wonder what I would have done back when I was going through that D-Day hell. If I could have utterly destroyed Pond Scum at the cost of my marriage, would I have done it? I don't think so.....but that's idle speculation.

Just make sure all your ducks are in a row for either option.

Someone needs to move this to Notable Posts!

LLL,

How important to you is your own character and morality? Many BS responses after a D-day can be cruel and vengeful. What do you want to see when you look in the mirror in 5, 10 or 15 years?
Is honor important to you? Everyone is different and has a different view of this.


AM

2 houses, a boat, and a young pool boy! DUDE

Dude says: "Dump the fool and become a cougar" I got a real laugh. Thank you, I need a laugh.

I know I sound like a general in battle. This is what I do, how I attack problems in my life. Initially, this crumbled me for a few days....then I found my strength and today I went into strategic planning mode. I've always done this, mainly in my work. I think I've been able to be an effective executive because I can objectively look at the pros and cons of taking certain actions. I can look at long range plans and determine what current actions would serve my organizations or myself in the long term. And I know, this is a personal, emotional issue, but I feel my long term quality of life is at stake. I can't just act on only emotion now.

Emotionally, trust is at the heart of this. As was said earlier, this is a mistake and he's allowed to make a mistake. But this "mistake" didn't occur for 10 minutes, 1 hour or 7 days. For what appears to be months, he's been repeatedly involved in lies of omission, commission, unearned criticism of me, and a lack of general human caring for me during one of the most difficult times in my life...the illness and death of my mother. How do you trust and make yourself emotionally vulnerable again to a person who so calously uses your trust to betray and deceive you? This man has a brain, this man has a heart, this man had my back for 29 years plus. Didn't I deserve at least the treatment you would give to any human being? Honesty, forthrightness, telling me the truth and letting me make my own choices as he was making his. Its the trust ....

It's not your H -- it's an alien, ala "The Thing", that's taken over his mind and his body.

It's up to you how much you can stand.

And any decision you make on this score has the support of everyone here. Ya know, been there, done that?

Just make sure it's not done out of momentary anger. Don't do anything irrevocable until you truly know what you want.

Usually, they say six months before you make any huge decisions because of the level of betrayal. Being eviscerated by the person you trust most is (to paraphrase the movie "Major League") juuuuuust a bit outside -- the pale.

Ok, jokes aside, let me interject. HE HAD YOUR BACK FOR 29 YEARS, he needs you to have his back if you will. He needs you to end his A(FANTASY) and save him from himself. Sure, you can let him go down in flames, rape him financially while he is drunk on his lover. Its up to you? Are you a giving person? If so, you can save his old a and recover your M. OR you can take most the assets, let him destroy himself, and party like a rockstar while he crumbles. YOUR CHOICE...DUDE

Just a question... Do you have any "indulgences" that you find it simply impossible to resist? My own is chocolate. God help me, if there's chocolate in the fridge, I'm going to end up eating it. Sometimes I've ended up eating some of the kid's chocolate too, rationalizing my horrible act by saying "well, it was in the fridge long enough, so they really didn't want it, and I can always buy more if they really wanted it anyway". I'm a pretty rational and caring person otherwise, but goddamit, chocolate is my definite weakness. I can't even "Plan B" the stuff, because my FWW and kids keep buying more and keeping it in plain sight in the fridge.

Well, at least it isn't alcohol.

Where am I going with this?

Well, understanding how even the best of us can slip into and by corrupted by something as incredibily addictive as an A with someone else could help your thought processes here. Have you read Surviving An Affair?

Good one

His brain was taken over by a fantasy and,
his heart went to his ego.

It really is like they are aliens, just listen to what he is spewing at you .... are those the thoughts of a rational person, would he have said this junk 1 or 2 years ago????

The fact that you can say 'he had your back for 29rs. plus' says that he is not the same man right now.

It would be a disservice to not make you aware that you may not feel as strongly about D in the weeks or months ahead.
Getting your ducks in a row is a very good plan since D may be in your future .... or maybe not.

Your emotions will be all over the place, week by week, hour by hour and minute by minute. It's brutal, but it's true.

It is possible to R from an A. It is possible for the WS to return to a caring and loving spouse.
It's even possible to have a stronger M than before. Really!

"I've decided if I want him anymore, I give up a huge bargaining chip."

What is there to bargin for? As I pointed out your a career woman the judge is not going to do any thing to make you richer.

LLL;

You may at this time want to start a new thread. JIC your WH or his GF locates this site. You have a very distinct story, easily found, copied and printed.

You do not want logger, PI and Atty info (or plan of action) available to your spouse.

DO NOT mention MB around your house. He will notice you are on the web and may snoop on you (turn around is fair play).

You could start a new thread, NEW NAME and continue --without the details...

we will still be here for you.

n

Step 1: Evidence from PI
Step 2: Serve "intent to file" complete with exposure plan
Step 3: Develop Post-nup agreement to "buy your silence" regardless of whether the marriage recovers. The conditions of silence are conditional upon OW getting out of the profession, WH retiring NOW from academia, and majorly sucking up to you, including counseling from the Harleys and anything else you ask; and you getting everything signed over to your name. One spec of hesitation on either his part or hers and you blow it up.
Step 4: Serve OW with Intent to Expose; She has a choice: to find a new advisor or preferably profession effective immediately, or you will turn evidence over to the school as evidence that she has not EARNED her degree, but rather bargained for it via exploitation of non-intellectual assets. (get rid of her - if she's in the same profession as you, you will end up running into her repeatedly. Think Jennifer Aniston vs Angelina Jolie. You know she's afraid of exposure. Let her know it will go ALL the way if she doesn't vaMooose! - This is not extortion, but rather, maintaining the integrity of the profession academically!
Step 5: See if your husband wants recovery or a quiet divorce. No guarantees he's going to get one over the other. Or either. One slip up with a signed post-nup and you get both houses, dogs, etc. And he won't get OW with this methodology.

Good advice..DUDE

barbicat....I don't think my H pays enough attention to what I'm doing or is around me enough to have any idea what I'm doing, but could be wrong...

What is the procedure to have my posts deleted and then do I just re-register under a new name and tag line? I'm not sure I understand exactly what to do if I want to continue on the discussion forum...

The ODDS ARE TOTALLY REMOTE..Ignore her post. We'll help you, just no names or school names? 80/20 is all you need to know...DUDE

KaylaAndy:

Your stated plan is basically the same as mine (what attorney and I discussed when we met today)except I'm not sure about the working on the marriage part. Haven't decided if I can ever do the things necessary. I need time, but depending on what PI finds, I may be even less inclined.... Guess I'm not the picture of forgiveness ...

LLL, it is up to you what you do. You have every right to try and every right NOT to try.

H came in and sat down at kitchen table. Asked if I wanted a some wine. We both had some and he asked me what I was planning to do. I said what do you mean? He said, I know you, you always have a plan. I told him right now I'm doing nothing but trying to get through each day....I've had a lot of devastating events in my life recently and I am trying to get my head wrapped around how my life has changed. He just looked at me and said, yes, there's been a lot of changes.

He said "I'm sorry you're so unhappy." I wanted to hit him. Then he said, "we can still be friends". I finally snapped at that and said "My friends don't betray me, lie to me, treat me badly...you don't qualify." I got up and walked out. What crap!

That was great.

"I'm sorry you're unhappy"

That's WS babble for "I hate that you're so upset because it makes me feel bad"

Does this mean you discriminate against liars and cheaters when choosing "friends?"

Personally, the "we can remain friends" garbage just has me running for the toilet bowl.

Hell, yes!

You people are sooo intolerant!!

Reaction is totally understandable...keep your head LLL...bite your lip from giving him the tongue lashings he deserves. Rise above! You're sooooooooooo going to get thru this with flying colors.

I'm a lurker...old timer... i've been checking in and reading more of late. You've got the best of the best supporting you. Hang in there....kiss and love your four-legged kid/kids.
ruby

When a cheater says "we can still be friends" he means he wants you to not object while he screws you over. It is a CLASSIC wayward tactic to avoid the consequences of his abuse on his victim.

LLL, you nailed it when you said "friends" don't betray. Who would choose someone for a "friend" who lies and cheats? Only a crazy person!

As usual, The Leopard had to put her unique spin on this tactic: She wanted us to have a "mutually respectful" relationship.

That toilet bowl is about to overflow.

When my H looks me in the face and says "we can be friends" I can't stand by and smile sweetly and say "sure, dear..." It's not in my nature to have bull crap said to me and let it pass. He's going to do whatever he wants no matter what... was before I knew about Hot Pants and continues on now, and I'm not in the mood right now to play sweet docile wife and seductress to a ego-driven, horney old man who's lost his mind and ethics.

LLL,

My then WW wife gave me the "still be friends" line on D-Day right after she confessed. I then broke it to her that if we split up and got a divorce that this would be the result:

1. I would never ever be in the same room with her again. Ever. For any reason.
2. I would never speak to her again. Ever. For any reason.
3. I would never speak of her to the kids. Ever. For any reason.
4. Ask the kids to never speak of her to me. Ever. For any reason.
5. And I told her that she would be dead to me.

Kinda ended that "friends" crap rather abruptly, as you can imagine.

She also said that Pond Scum and I had a lot in common. I didn't say....yeah, you. Showed some self control. She also said Pond Scum had a good heart. I told her that people with a good heart don't bang other men's wives. Ended that line of talk quickly as well.

She was an alien in my wife's body. My wife finally did return, though it did take about ten weeks. It could happen for you, too.

That's if you want it. If you don't, godspeed.

I sort of feel like I'm allowing him to continue to play both sides of the street. Still living in his home, having the surface him look the same in his mind, while leading what he thinks is a secret life. I know, if I expose I blow that double life out of the water.

I just need time to decide if I'd rather use the info discretely to leave the marriage with an advantageous private settlement, or risk trying to recover the marriage through exposure and then lose any bargaining advantage if we don't ultimately reconcile. Its like poker right now. Don't want to give up my hand yet.

You know, I really like dogs. They're loyal, protective, affectionate, always glad to see you, like to cuddle, always want to sleep with you, and love to take long walks. All the qualities my H lacks.

Believe it or not, Ladylonglegs, I had much the same thoughts as you. In my case, I held all the cards though, not just a nice hand.

I had to decide whether I wanted my wife back despite the inherent problems with doing so or whether I wanted to go separate ways.

That issue was almost resolved for me. But first, I made sure we had an agreement in place (it still is). That way, should the marriage not be recoverable, all of the "i"s are dotted and all of the "t"s crossed.

I applaud you for "playing poker" right now, but I caution you that external events can turn your winning hand into a wash in nothing flat.

What I'm trying to say is that I found out my "plans" kept hitting speed bumps and unexpected turns. I got out -- and safely, mostly intact -- but it wasn't the way I planned it.

Make sure you're covered. Remember what John Lennon said: Life is what happens while you're busy making plans.

LLL, MB isn't about agreeing with the junk they spew, you handled that fine, and you didn't get into a pee contest with him over it, you left the room before this happened.
Believe me, I know how hard it is to not go ballistic and smack em'!

WS are crazy. My FWH thought he, OW and I could be friends, he thought I'd like her since we had so much in common. (yeah, my H)
FWH even thought we could send her cards at Christmas.

H is acting strange. Hanging around, lurking almost. When I left the room, he's made several trips back and forth from one room to another and keeps passing by the room I'm in so that I can see him walk by, but I can't figure out what he's doing. Is he trying to spy on me? I'm in my family room obviously on my laptop. He just strolled by again with his hands in his pockets. Doe he want to talk again but can't get up the nerve?

Geez, how stupid can these WSs get...

LLL,

You've really got him worried. The fact that you are still in the house and so is he has thrown him for a loop. He deseperately wants to know what you are plotting. That's why he came right out and asked about your plan. The suspense is killing him. Don't give him any idea what you plan to do. Let him worry..... You are doing great!!

Mindshare

Lovin' this list.

I suggest you quietly close the door to any room you go to.

Reminds me of what I read once about the best punishment you can give a kid who messes up is to send him to bed and tell him that you and your spouse are going to talk about his punishment over night, and let him know what it will be in the morning. The suspense is more painful punishment than the real punishment.

Thanks Pep. It did the job. She never mentioned the possibility of "friends" ever again. It was one of the few things I did right in the first few weeks. (Remember, I wasn't at my best two weeks after hip replacement surgery.)

LLL, you're playing it just about right. Let him stew. Parts 1, 2, & 5 of the list could apply to you. I'm sure you can come up with things to plug into 3 & 4 if you find this appropriate for your sitch.

So now he (WS) has become the origional home stalker. Are you sure he has not noticed your viewing on MB? More than one BS has had infomation here located by WS. That may mean nothing to you, I know.

This is a M building site. There is a reason you came here instead of divorcesrus dotcom.

I think this is an excellent post. As well as MIM

Step One: Positive
Step Two: Threat. Stating boundries is one thing, I would be careful with ultimatums at this point.

Step three: Do you really think this goal is realistic? I do not think you can base your M or D on what OW does or does not do(getting out of profession). Your personal goals can not include the actions of a person outside your M.

Step Four; Not realistic. It would be great to control OW in this manner, but I do not see this happening. Your WH has to initiate/enforce no contact for life. This stance has to come from your WH.

Step 5; I do not know about this type of document.

Why do you not counsel with the Harley's? Your BH's A sounds like a garden variety A at this time. His actions and words seem terrible but rather typical. Many, many people here have saved their M's after A's.

Cover your assets, but nothing you can do really is going to buy/assure trust or control of other people. At least not in the long run.

LadyLongLegs,
He is probably covering his ground but usually they get frantic when they are discovered ..or they try to be careful and for a while and not see each other...either way.. your PI is going to find out soon.
Regarding your R the M. Your H is just like mine, very brainy. I suspect he has a plan to leave you and be with OW. As you said he is a horney old man and once they get the infatuation at that age and being the proud people they are...it is very difficult for them to admit they made a mistake. So they will continue into that mistake no matter what.
Also your H has, like mine, shown a very cold heart in the face of your difficulties with your mother's health and passing. In my case it was a bike accident where my H showed total indifference. He would have been kinder to an animal, I am sure.
These cold-heart instances show a different type of man. A man who has rationalized his choices and feels entitled to them and who is, at the same time, totally driven by the addiction of the A. Which stays for a long while.
In my case the A was secret for 18 months and has been exposed now for 5 months. The exposure did nothing to kill the A. H is as horney for OW as ever. Again, he feels entitled so I think the more people know the more he feels entitled. It is �the 2 of them� and the rest of the world. His coldness and indifference are shocking.
My H too said he hoped we could be friends for the sake of our son. Our son came for the holidays and my H did not even contact him. Imagine how much he cares.
The way our H behaved in the face of our hardship goes beyond the indifference generated by the attraction of the A. It shows that something else, maybe physiological, has kicked in and changed their brain chemistry. It is documented by research that men go thru andropause and that changes their brain chemistry.
I would encourage you to get on with your life.
I am 45 and I hope to be over this in a year...and already feel I am no longer a spring kick. I have no financial security. You are older but you are financially independent and are still at an age where you can have a great life. R takes a long long time. And your H has not mentioned wanting to save the M. So it can be years.
Do you want to spend the next 5 years of your life waiting for you H's brain chemistry to re-adjust?
LadyLong, you are an inspiration because you showed strength and a cool head in the face of misery. So many BS (me included) have to go thru the pain of a plan A and then plan B in the hopes to R the M. It is a choice. But if you feel you are over and done with your H, you do not have to subject yourself to the humiliation of a plan A which leaves you drained right at a time when YOU need to be supported and loved. If you have the strength in you to move to plan D, I commend you.
I am still in love with my H so I went thru a super long plan A (very bad idea�Melody discouraged me but I did not listen) and now I am in plan B and I am applying the MB principles because I hope to R my M in case my H comes back walking on water�but he better do so by October otherwise I will move on.
Again�my case is different�I have no financial security. If I did�I would have been done with him.
blessing

While you decide, it might be good to ask the moderators to change your thread title to something totally generic. (Those of us following along can find you easily.)

You can also ask that they delete or at least edit some of your earlier posts where you gave pretty specific details.

I prayed for you (and other newbies) when the forums went down. It seems like you never skipped a beat. You have shown such tremendous strength that you've inspired many. I suggest you keep asking questions so that you can be sure to have adequate input before you make your decision.

In the meantime, protect your identity.

Best wishes to you,
Ace

P.S. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ LLL }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

How do I ask moderators to change my thread name to more generic title? Do I keep my screen name or change it?

Got to the office early today and had message from PI. He didn't get anything on H yesterday because the SOB hung around the house more than I've seen in recent weeks. However, he's been running checks on Hot Pants and apparently she has been married twice and has previously had another relationship with a married man, another "big man in the community" who's name I recognize and who has stature and money. See a pattern here? Anyway, PI says he could gather more info on this and wife and previous married man are now divorced, so previous wife might be source of info on what transpired. I would doubt my H knows any of that probably sordid story.

I don't get it, she's blond and petite but with a horse face....how does she round up so many men?

Also, after H hung around acting weird, he went back to his study last night and it paid off in eblaster reports of a brief computer conversation between them. She was "dying to know what's happening. I know it's probably hard for you to call me, but I can't imagine what you're going through. Is your wife going crazy on you? Could you possibly get away for a little while to meet? I don't want to take chances because I don't want to be seen as the problem in your marriage...." He responded that he'd better not leave right now...too obvious...but said "I'm having Hot Pants withdrawal....hope to see you soon". Printed this off at office this morning for safe keeping....sure....this sounds like typical prof/student convo. Do we really need pictures too????

bottom right corner of your post frame, there are 6 tabs to choose from ...... choose 'Notify', here you can write the Mods a note.

You can keep your screen name.

Sorry , this is the second time you asked isn't it .....

Ok, they are being careful. They will slip soon. You have a PI so...pictures? Why not!
blessing

Let the P.I. get info on OW. This may help clear the fog in your WH, but don't expect miracles.

I can't believe that you are so ready to dump your "good friend" of 30 years this fast. Slow down and think. You are doing great!

LLL, does your WH have any major or minor health concerns?

I admire LLL for that. She is ready to dump the fool right away and not put up with the rest. Maybe her feeling for him are gone. This happens to some people. As soon as they find out about the A they feel nothing for the spouse but disgust.
Maybe this is what LLL feels for her H. Is it?
It would be interesting if you would tell us what you feel as so many of us BS still feel love for WS even in the face of the worst possible betrayal.
blessing

"I can't believe that you are so ready to dump your "good friend" of 30 years this fast."

I have read a lot of posts here from start to finish. The amount of time and effort and angst many go through and still result in not reconciling the marriage is striking. I know, some do reconcile happily. However, I think I have every right at age 53 to decide how much time and effort and how many months or years I want to go through this kind of stuff when maybe a clean break would "free" me mentally from the soap opera quality of life I've been subjected to by my H's choices in the last few months and let me rebuild a new, more positive existence. The emotional devastation and stress of the past few months is not something I think is good for me mentally or physically and I have to think hard about prolonging that. I need to put myself above him while I go through this because he's certainly putting himself above me during this.

I'm not burning any bridges as of today, however I reserve the right to decide he's done the unforgivable and yes, both he and I will suffer the consequences if our marriage ends.

I couldn't agree more LLL. The choice is yours to make. My only avice is not to make the decision under emotional duress. It's a major life decision so take you time making it. Nobody here would ever fault you for deciding that you want out.


Mindshare

DITTO

1. Prof becomes chronically ill and is unable to mentor.
2. Prof hits the lottery and says "screw it" to academia.
3. Prof moves.
4. Prof's mental acuity lessens and student is not served.
5. Prof indulges in moral lapse with student and hinders her scholarship.
6. Prof indulges in moral lapse with student and exposes university to sexual harrassment lawsuit.

Expose.

My H has great health. He's always been something of an athlete, exercises daily, at his ideal weight, and sees a doctor for yearly required check ups. Takes vitamins, no prescribed routine meds. Eats very healthy.

I would definitely take into consideration your age(marital recovery is at LEAST TWO YEARS)and your 53 already, your self sufficiency status, and NO KIDS!! If I didn't have kids, you can bet I'd not be on this board!! You do have a long history together. Sad thing is, he needs you now more than he ever has. He needs you to bust his affair and save him from himself. You can save his A$$ or rape him financially while he's in la la land and build a new life for yourself. You choice? HOW MUCH DO YOU LOVE THIS MAN? DUDE

I was crazy about H for most of the years we've been married. We spent lots of time together, both loved outdoors, loved to travel and plan exotic trips, loved animals and playing with our pets. For 28 years, although there were normal ups and downs every marriage experiences, I think we were both very happy.

I do question now whether maybe he's been unfaithful to me before.....he travels a lot with his work and grad students. Has always gone to lots of professional conferences, there is a real social component to these things and the same groups tend to attend all the conferences so these large groups in the same field know each other well. He certainly would have had opportunity.

I have had times when I wasn't all that happy, but they passed and I'm sure he's probably felt the same. Normal, I think. But for two persons without children and both with strong personalities, I think we have really been in love and we have managed our two careers and rather independent natures well.

Now how do I feel about him today? Do I love him? Hard to say .... I'm too angry and hurt to really know.

lll, you are ignoring us. You don't WANT to expose so you are looking at everything around the word expose and talking about all that.

Let's get down to business. What would happen if you expose?

LLL, you are a smart lady who sounds like she understands the consequences of both sides of this coin.
Please be assured, that whatever you decide, in time when your head stops spinning, the board is here to support you 100%.

I disagree about exposure. Lawyer said to wait. Our advice is not professional advice and members are free to follow it or not. Besides, LLL has a good plan and is following it in a very logical and cool-headed way. She still has to make many decisions and it is up to her to decide if and when to expose.
blessing

We hear you, lll. And every word you're absolutely justified in feeling complete outrage right now. But don't make the mistake of allowing your outrage to drive the bus. I know it's impossible to not have these feelings - they're important and should not be swept under the carpet. But use them constructively. Allow yourself this emotion for...say, 15 minutes. Get in the shower when no one's around and scream at the top of your lungs. Vent here as much as possible.

And then pull yourself back into the model of the Plan A wife, one who is caring of herself, her H, and her M. You'll need to keep your wits about you in order to take care of business. Whatever that business may be - you don't have to decide that right now whether or not you want to stay in your M or shut it down. So don't make that decision prematurely. Get your ducks in a row.

And can I mention again: Exposure is a beautiful thing.

This very true and should make many of us BS reflex about where we are putting our energy and when it is time to put it back on us.

This is worth years of therapy. At the end of every therapy cycle the client should be able to state what LLL stated above.

Yes, but you will be much better off than he will be with a homewrecker like HP

blessing

I wish I could fast-forward you through this part, lll. It WILL get better, I promise you.
Please don't make hasty decisions and swamp yourself any more than you're swamped right now.

(scuffing my toe in the dirt and looking sheepish)

Yer right Atena. No exposure yet.

Yet.

That dern mattress-backed kooze jest made me spittin' mad. She is nothin' but an oportunistic tramp imo.

As I set before the lawyer is not serving your best personal interests.

You recover your marriage the lawyer loses a lot of money.

Expose this affair. The cancer needs to be removed from the college as well as your life.

Also you both too well off financially to get anything from a divorce. Most likely the college won't fire your WH and they will just reassign the OW.

However you will of killed the affair. Act with integrity and expose today.

But she's not set on Her Plan yet, TR.

Until she is, then she's best in this holding pattern.

Here goes the usual SAVE THE MARRIAGE AT ALL COSTS(LITERRALLY) LINE. This is why DUDE stays here. If she exposes, she loses BIG MONEY probably. This ladies has choices!! When you have choices, you are in the best position. When you are a really good spouse, responsibile, educated, attractive, yeah, you do want to say EFF YOU! I'd hold tight on the info...DUDE

You do not have to explain anything to me. I am not rooting for you to attempt recovery or D. That is up to you. It is OK to flip flop, change your mind, be angry, sad or whatever you want to vent, here.
You have only had a few days/weeks since discovery, it is so new to you I don't see how you can trust any emotion you are having right now. But that is normal and what makes you human.

We will support you.

Uh-huh. And I work with plenty of lawyers who have no business dispensing advice.

ITA. Ask your attorney how many Ms he's helped recover using his advice. He's an attorney, and his area of expertise is probably not in the marriage-saving arena.

TheRoad (and others), it strikes me that LLL is in the same position I found myself in when The Leopard pulled the world down around me. I rode the fence for weeks before I came to MB, and then I got hope that maybe my marriage could be recovered.

The more I posted and the more feedback I got, I quickly learned that perhaps mine was one of the marriages that SHOULDN'T be recovered. We had no kids. The Leopard appeared to be disordered and incapable of addressing her own issues. She was taking me down with her sinking ship.

I know this is Marriage Builders and to not provide LLL with the concepts and principles would be contrary to the purpose of this site. Yet I don't see her as having made the decision that she wants to recover the marriage. We can make all of the suggestions in the world, but until LLL chooses that path, our suggestions are just that: suggestions.

It's only if she chooses to try to recover the marriage do the suggestions become The Road Map. Putting the attorney into a bad light is not helpful. I have an attorney, and she has never said she stands in the way of marital recovery. In fact, she was emphatic about the state law requiring a six month waiting period for that very purpose! From what I read, LLL has the sense and foresight to choose an attorney well.

I think LLL is quite properly exploring all of her options. I applaud her for coming here, asking questions and letting us know what she's thinking and doing. I find great strength in LLL's demeanor.

Ladylonglegs, I will end this with my standard admonition: Do not underestimate your WH. He -will- respond to whatever direction you choose to take. And that response is not likely to be "friendly and professorial." When you choose your course of action, be prepared to follow it 100%.

PERFECT and GOOD ADVICE..DUDE

I would like nothing more than to expose my H and Hot Pants in a atomic bomb type of way. I have fantasies about it. HOWEVER...marriage is not only a relationship, after almost 30 years it is a business partnership as well. I strongly feel I would be foolhardy to expose my H and his partner in crime until I decide what my long term goal is....recovery or divorce.

I didn't go to a lawyer for marital counseling. I went for legal, financial and business advice..... I believe that I have and am obtaining additional info daily on H's activities that he WOULD NOT like made public. This information can either be used to convince my H to drop the [censored] or it could be used to privately negotiate a financial agreement advantageous to me rather than spending months and thousands in court fighting. To expose now just to end the affair would be short-sighted on my part I think.

I balanced the same things you did. We had a house we owned outright, investments, retirement accounts, land, boat,rv, dirt bikes, 4 wheelers, etc etc etc...You're right, throw out the emotional crap, its about the business aspects of what you have built together yet this clown is acting wreckless. Wait til he starts blowing money on this bimbo...YOu are really gonna be pissed. DUDE

LLL

Do you love your husband?
If he stopped being a moron and committed to recovery, would you want stay married?

If you answered yes to either of those, EXPOSE!

If you answered no, then divorce him and use the info for a settlement.

Unfortunately WS do not stop being morons point blank. It takes years and lots of energy and then maybe you have a successfull R..or maybe not. It is a gamble and you have to be 100% sure you want to gamble with someone who is broken and damaged.
If LLL does not want to put all this energy in possibly R her M then that is her choice.
She is actually setting a good example, at least for me, in terms of showing me that us BS can be strong and take a stance for ourselves. Even the idea that we love our H: we actually loved the men they were, not the ones they are now. Love has to be fueled to endure, otherwise is emotional clinging and not true love.
I think LLL is showing that there is an alternative to the misery and pain of R. It is a choice of course, and if one decides to R, hats off...but if one decides to move on...great too.

I'm wondering how many of you knew exactly what you wanted, recovery or divorce, within two weeks of finding out about the biggest shock of your life? I'm not made that way. Many of you are saying slow down and make sure you decide what you want and others are saying blow up the affair without regard to how it might impact me should the marriage not be saved eventually. I'm getting the feeling some of you want to see what happens when I expose for just purient curiosity.

Maybe there is curiosity too, but at times I see that there is a one track mind about exposure...while even Steve Harley has advised agaist it in several situations.
One size does not fit all.
blessing

He sounds like he would have had many opportunities to get his most important EN's met elsewhere.

LLL, I think it would be in your best interest to snoop more, go back a few years, pay special attention, (ie. cell phone bills, credit card expenses) to the times when he was away on trips.

Verify no other A's.

Find out more about your life, KWIM.

LLL, I've been through grad school and though I don't work in academia, I collaborate with them a fair bit and retain a number of business contacts in that field. You are correct - academia is a wayward's playhouse and prof-student affairs run rampant. It is disgusting on so many levels - I've actually hesitated to open this thread as it raises so many issues within me I could spit nails. But I degress.

Expose your WH and do it now!!! Of COURSE he doesn't wnat this stuff made public. But guess what - the chances of him losing his job are slim to none. Academia is the WORST old boys club in the world and they protect their own. I can think of at least a dozen "well known scholars in their field" who have boinked grad students and guess what - the grad student's career was ruined but the prof's life went on - probably even earned him a couple of pats on the back in the Faculty Lounge. I know of only one case where the prof lost her job and that was because she was the woman fooling around with a male grad student. In an old boys club, only the boys are allowed to play and get away with it.

So you have nothing to lose. You can either expose and end this affair or you can put up with a lying, cheating, POS wayward husband who is already in an environment where he's admired for this type of crap.

I think what LLL is saying is that exposing might present a problem for her in terms of dealing with the D. It would hurt OW but it would also distress LLL.
She has to evaluate what is best for her especially because exposure will do nothing against her H in the environment he is in. At this point is all about what is good for LLL not what is good for the end of the A if the ultimate goal is D.
blessing

I'm sort of in the exposure camp, simply because I purely HATE to let anybody,ever, think they've pulled something over on me and made me out a fool. But since you know that his job has given him multiple opportunities, over the years, to have done this before, I think you'd be wise to follow the advice to go back a ways and see if you can find others. Document a pattern, and not only does it strengthen your hand in whatever your ultimate decision is, but it will, I believe, inevitably shape what that decision will be.

tl

I don't feel that I can advise on exposure in your case at this moment, cuz I think I understand the position that you are in.
Most BS that come here regardless of wanting R or D, are encouraged to expose the A, to use this tool to end the disgusting adultery. (cuz it's the right thing to do)
Exposure does not generally have any leverage in settlement, from my experience here anyway. (note my member date!)
Your situation seems different, you want that leverage in your pocket.

I am having trouble with you being exposed to WS adultery right under your nose, with no weapon to destroy this A. My struggle is for your mental health.

What did I feel initially post d-day about R or D ........ fight or flight kicked in, (they tugged it out for a bit) first week or so I was just stunned but I got onto the comp and researched A's.
I wanted to know everything about them so that I could understand what the h*ll was going on in my life.
I made a Drs. appt. that week, and in our conversation she said to me, ' oh V, you don't have to end up D'd, many M's recover from this'.
That was kind of a light bulb moment since I respected her opinion, and I thought okay, maybe ......

I knew that I loved my H, would give it my best shot, 150%, that was for myself and my kids.(my concern wasn't for him at all) I didn't want to regret not trying.
I also knew that if in a years time, I saw no hope, that would have been it.
My H has only the one A, had there been multiple, well that would have had a bearing on my decision I'm sure.

That's my thinking too.

Tabby1......thank you for supporting my observations about academia....it is a boys' club and infidelity playground. I've known this since I went to graduate school and also when my H entered as an assistant professor at his first university job. As a matter of fact, one of his colleagues who's office my H inherited as an assistant professor left as a joke in the office my h was moving into a copy of a smutty book entitled "Faculty Stud". We had only been married a year at the time and we both laughed about it. This was a 50 something prof who left this "gift" in my h's new desk.

I don't know if my h was ever unfaithful before. However, I never in our married life felt the withdrawal of his time and affection like I have in recent months. I never had that sick, gut feeling that something was not right, never found myself panicky and searching through his stuff, only to be relieved when I found nothing. Never did he sleep on the far edge of the bed for weeks on end with his back to me. Never before did he criticise me constantly for minor things. If he was playing around before, it never changed his demeanor in substantial ways like it has now.

I don't think LLL has ruled out exposure.
But at this point it needs to be advantageous to HER.

So -- first decide if saving the marriage is what you want.
Personally I would only attempt it to protect CHILDREN from divorce.

I still like PrincessM's plan. Use it to secure a really nice post-nup. Once you are protected --
Dig up all you can on HotPants and at the very least expose that ugliness to your husband. And I personally wouldn't rest until her reputation and future in the profession was RUINED.

God, they are all so cruel to the BSs during their affairs. This enrages me.
But, LLL, I am very impressed at how yu have been able to hold off on any knee jerk reactions re exposure, until such a time that you decide whether you want to remain with this a-hole.
With huis reputation and career at stake, you can definitely leverage your knowledge into a more favorable settlement. Your lawyer is right on that.
So, take your time and try to come to a decision on whether he is worth it and you are the type of person who can remain in a relationship with a person who has betrayed you.
Then, proceed accordingly. Keep that exposure arrow in your quiver, for now.

Whoops -- it wasn't PrincessM's plan it was Kayla's.
I think this plan ROCKS!

I'm certainly not getting much work done today, but I am quite nervous about the next call coming from the PI. I need this information so I can make informed decisions, but I feel almost ill about what I think is coming.

I'm very curious about the ex-wife of Hot Pants last paramour. I'd love to hear what that wife has to say about HP's role in her marriage's failure. Maybe it was a different situation, maybe the marriage was done before the affair with HP....I'm very curious but reluctant to contact someone under these circumstances.

Don't do this. You really need to finesse this stuff, otherwise you run the risk of being prosecuted for extortion.

Okay, I haven't posted on here, but I've been reading along, and something suddenly struck me.

If exposure is likely to have no affect whatsoever on your H's career (in fact, he may get a few pats on the back from his fellow old boys) then why is he likely to give up everything in the case of a D just to keep the A from being exposed? Is he really going to give up the houses, the money, the dogs, etc. just to keep you from telling everyone about the A if he really has nothing to lose if you do tell? Maybe the OW has something to lose, but I'm not sure protecting her is going to be enough incentive for your H to give up everything he has worked all of his life to obtain.

Not exposing with the hope that your H will just hand over everything in the event of a D to keep you from exposing just doesn't seem like a very effective bargaining tool, especially since exposure apparently wouldn't cost him much.

He certainly didn't have any problem dumping her after 30 years... and saying I am sorry you are so unhappy..., why shouldn't she?

blessings

It may well affect his job. I realize there is speculation that it will not and I am no expert on academia, but I think there is a good possibility it will.
Also, LLL has alluded to his national reputation being tarnished, irrespective of the effect on his job.

If she is going to play this chip, she needs to hold it.

Maybe sooner than she thinks LLL will be telling her H: I am sorry you are unhappy...
Let's see if he likes that.

Blessing

Exposing won't probably lose his job for him, but officially he can't be patted on the back for it, and also, the fact that he's sleeping with a grad student who he assigns grades for and approves disseratation will not look good. Furthermore, it leaves H open to grievances filed by other students for unfair competition/advantage for fellowships, jobs, etc. There is a fairly closely monitored policy that profs not have as students in their classes/advisement persons their are married to, a relative of or otherwise personally attached to. This is the part of the ethics standards that might have the most impact. Also, using university or government grant funds to pay for trysts in hotels during "professional meetings" out of town would have further ramifications. He would not be such a successful procurer of federal and state grants if he's investigated for misuse of funds. One of the things the PI is looking into is a specific conference last November that H and HP attended where I found a receipt in a stack on his desk for dinner in his hotel room. I thought that odd, because he never eats dinner in his room....then I looked carefully at the hotel bill he has a copy of in his "professional travel" file, and found the hotel charges included dinner and an in room movie. So I went back and looked closer at the room service receipt and saw 2 wines, 2 dinner salads, two main courses and dessert. A business meeting with movie? I think not. And that trip was paid for with federal grant funds, including hotel, meals, etc.

This is not an "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" type of site. If that were really so, the whole world would be blind and have no teef!... (not my origional quote)

Yep, exposure will hurt him...and he knows. I am sure he is planning too. Not much he can do..but I am sure he will do all he can to save his butt.
The thing is, if the whole story turns ugly, you will suffer from it too.
I would pick the road that best serves you also in terms of lower stress for you.
blessing

LLL, PI's are the best, if you get a good one. Apparently, you have the resources. I bet you find plenty that can be used in negotiatiations. Spitzer and South Carolina's governor are having diificulties with the misuse of funds issue. It is a potent one.
I am sure, by now, you are questioning a lot about what may have gone on in the past. Many of us deal with this, as , seldom, are these folks forthcoming.
After years of reading and researching this infidelity crap, I hacome to the conclusion that affairs are like cockroaches: if you find one, there are almost certainly many others. Studies show the vast majority of affairs go undetected. So, it is unlikely this is his only one, IMO.

What I am saying here is that the loss of feelings for someone can be gone in no time. This can happen both to a WS as well as a BS.
You can't have eye for eye in a site like this since feelings are involved and you can't make yourself not love the WS. But if after the discovery of the A your feelings for the WS are gone...it is very understandable.
blessing

Okay, I can see the possibility for some professional damage, but I don't know if it's going to be enough for him to sit back and let you take him to the cleaners.

There have been a lot of high-profile A's in the media in recent years, and while the initial fallout (I'm thinking Tiger Woods here at the moment) can be bad, the long term effects on career (think Brangalina, Kobe, more politicians than one can count) just doesn't seem all that grievous. Unfortunately, I think we've come to a place where A's (in the media, at least) aren't really seen as all that terrible.

Academia seems to have a similar take on A's. I know all about the policies that most universities have regarding A's between professors and students, but I also know (and you have admitted) that these policies are rarely adhered to. In my grad program, it was widely known that certain professors regularly engaged in inappropriate behavior with students. None of these A's were publicly acknowledged and it was supposed to be very secret and hush-hush, but everyone knew, everyone made jokes about it, and no one, as far as I know, ever suffered any repercussions for such actions.

Agree.

writer1....are there any homes for sale with a view at your location: Cliffs of Insanity? I love the name....fits perfectly for my situation....I may relocate!

Affairs are not taken seriously here in Italy. Look at their prime minister...he had loads of women in his villa. Finally his W asked for a D after over 20 years of this...but they shut her up. And he is still the prime minister!
blessing

You may have to dumn down your posts a tad. Anyway, I would NOT expose. You have a lot of options. I WISH someone would have helped me keep my cool and think of this like a business and I would have handled it like a BUSINESS PARTNER. DISSOLVE. I thin you are costing yourself some cash if you expose. Have you been happy in your M? Its going to take a long time to FIX, if it can be FIXED. What about when you get a severe illness, is he going to be there for you? DUDE

I agree with you Dude, regarding this situation. LLL is in a totally different position than most of us. She should play her cards well.
He H, however, is hard to pin point. Not sure if he has been a serial cheater or if this is just his first trasgression mainly due to his age and flattering needs from younger women.
In any case...no..he might not be there if she were to need him in the future.
Same could be said for my H...and your W.
blessing

Exposure WILL hurt him, and there will be consequences. They just won't be the end of his career like they would be in another field. If anything, he'll at least be scolded for getting caught. And yes, there very well could be grievances filed by other students when the story comes out. It's very humiliating - I've seen it happen before. But they won't fire a male prof, especially one that gets federal and state grants. And they won't publically pat him on the back but there will be a few high-fives going on somewhere.

I still think exposure is the way to go, regardless of whether you are looking for recovery or divorce. Exposure WILL end the affair - they will expel this student or switch her to another advisor. They will shame her and she'll likely quit anyway and she certainly won't have a future in this field. Get her out of the picture and then see how you feel about recovery. You can make the choice to divorce at any time. But once you have made it, your chances of recovery are infinitely more remote.

My feelings x-actly. At first gleen, It might be great to visualize all this power that a BS may hold, but the truth is, our yucky society does not deem EMA's as big a deal as the people here do. I am in a post graduate Ed.S., I can't see anyone even caring if one (or a few) of the prof's have A's. In fact, they seem quite downright "hippy" and very laid back attitudes.

LLL is very smart. She is gathering her evidence and her wits.

LLL: It's from "The Princess Bride." I find the location quite fitting for my own situation as well.

And to answer your other question, no, I don't think many people knew exactly what they wanted within 2 weeks of finding out that the person they loved and trusted had betrayed them. I think that's why it is generally advised that you don't make any rash, life-altering decisions until you have had time to think and process everything that has happened to you.

The University would not DARE shame or expell or do anything untoward to the OW/student. She will be seen as the victim, and would/could sue the stuffing out of a University who biased against her for sex.
Socially and Career wise, she could be harmed, maybe. But just as often as naught the BS/XW is seen as written off as just being bitter and vengeful, this could backfire. I don't see anyone who carries a scarlett "A" anymore.

People simply do not throw 7-10 years of study, tens of thousands in student loans down the toilet because they are embarrassed. The University will surpress any publication of this grant/misappropriation type info because they do not want to invite other law suits from denied grant applicants. Only a "short list" denied student who has personal knowledge/proof of intent may get a hearing. Probably not, tho. It just won't happen.

Y'know, I may be wrong in this, because I'm too busy (lazy) to search for it now, but I recall on more than one occasion Dr. H. has been quoted here saying that if children are not involved, then he would NOT counsel that the M be R in the event of infidelity.

I would welcome ML or someone correcting me on this, if I'm wrong.

Barbiecat, I've seen it so many times. The "old boys club" will not consume their own. They will make the OW out into a tramp. Though I hate OW's as a matter of principal, I actually feel bad for these ones. They have no idea what they're in for and just how badly they are going to ruin their lives. The saddest thing is that when she's gone, there will be a line-up of replacements for her.

FWIW, even if it would not be career ending, the threat of exposure, should LLL choose to use it as a bargaining tool, is powerful, IMO. Bryant lost millions in endorsements. Woods, as well. Edwards was ruined as is Spitzer.
Some stuff will be cut and dried, like splitting retirement assets and property acquired during the marriage. But, invariably, there are bones of contention, gray areas, etc. where simply reminding him that going to hearing makes things very public.
Other than the Hollywood cheaters, most cheaters do suffer both humiliation and monetary losses due to exposure.

lll, why don't you just visit WH's boss? Go to his office, sit down, explain the situation, and ask him for help?

I would also point this out to his boss.

Harley says if it is a short term marriage, and no children, then ending the relationship may be advisable.

I agree. The university would be nuts to allow this to adversely impact the student. Despite her age, the disparity in power between the prof and student could lead to a suit.

Hold off and listen to your lawyer on how to use this to your best advantage. I would not talk to his boss. You lose leverage.

I say wait til the divorce is final and BLOW THEIR WORLD UP!! They have had no qualms blowing your world up, in the CIA world we call this BLOWBACK! DUDE

OK, thanks. That leaves LLL out of the "quick fix" non-Harley solution. But what is considered "short term?"

As it should. Not that I like WS, not at all. But in this case the Prof had the control of the situation.

LLL

I agree with your approach to this. I did so many things wrong, and most of the time they were things that were the result of a knee-jerk reaction. I let my emotions get the best of me.

As I said before, I wish that I would have acted sooner to secure my financial future. Had I done that, I would have been protected either way. I did not, and XWH took me to the cleaners. Big time. I just refused to believe that my H of 33+ years (at the time) would leave me - an educated (grad degree), successful woman with class - for a twice D'd, twice bankrupt, gambling addicted _____. I was obviously wrong on that.

And yes, I was one who wanted to recover my M from the very beginning because of the history (we went to kindergarten together), the years of M, we had one child, we had worked very hard to build our retirement future, had a nice house, etc. and I loved him. So there was no doubt in my mind that I did not want a D.

I fought.

Just as you stated earlier, I was one who fought and fought only to go through h3ll and end up D'd anyway. Sometimes I think that if I had it to do over again, I would kick his butt to the curb and forget it.

As I look back though, I am glad that I fought because I could be sitting here now regretful that I didn't try and wondering what might have been. I'm glad that I don't have to live with that thought. At this point, I feel like I am free to enter another chapter in my life with no regrets.

Whatever you decide, be prepared to do battle. The OW will probably not go away easily even if your WH decides to work on the M. And if you decide to D him, it could get ugly. OW love to win - they love to win the man AND the money.

There is something particularly repulsive about these older geezers(like my age), dipping into the secretarial pool. It is pathetic and revolting.

The reason I wrote this plan this way was to get OW out of the profession.

OW right now is writhing on the idea that this could come to light and embarrass the ***** with a track record of home wrecking!

I think if you get intel from previous marriages she's wrecked, and through your attorney let her know that her academic credentials are going to be held in question, that you have documentation of her track record hence she sought to snare your husband in the same old bear trap, and to find some other rock to crawl under or it's all coming out.

Work the plan with your attorney to get an unconditional postnup from your husband; that way you lose nothing from exposure and he has everything to lose from sniffing around her doghouse anymore and she has everything to lose from occupying said doghouse anymore...

The time is soon coming to take the mutt to the pound. Advertise her as a stray with destructive tendencies.

I see LLL as a woman with personal power; very much the kind of woman who did this:

Try to recover from infidelity is MORE RISKY than getting M in the first place. You are trying to reconcile w/ a KNOWN WRECKLESS A$$ CHEATER!! DUDE

First time posting and I have only read the last several pages.

On Dday, I wanted a D. As for exposure, like you my H had a lot to lose and so did I. I could have destroyed H's professional world. I gave serious thought to exposing to his employer and weighed the pros and cons. In the end, any monthly support he may owe me didn't matter and was willing to forgo the money. I am more than able to care for myself and children should H have lost his job. In this ecomony that could have happened anyway or if H was spending more time chasing tail than doing his work that could have happened anyway. I was not willing to accept hush money. If H and I had divorced, I would have taken him to the cleaners and used leverage on a personal leverage vs professional.

Too funny Zelmo. I do always wonder though how these guys in their 50's can M the secretary and start another family at that age. It seems that the generation gap would be a big obstacle to having an intimate M.

"There is no fool like an old fool", as my mom used to say.

It almost pains me to say this, but my father married his former secretary, a woman 18 years his junior, when he was in his sixties. He divorced my mother after 36 years of marriage.

They didn't start another family (thank God!). She was the poster child for "affairing down."

It works the other way too - why does any young woman want an older guy with a spare tire and all of the other middle aged issues that go with it? I'd say $$$$$, but I know a few who M older guys that are physically repulsive and broke.

A few things I know about academia....

It will be hard to have any action taken about the OW by the university....probably impossible. Because of the imbalance of power....he's her advisor, mentor and provides grades and income...HE and HE ALONE will bear any legal responsibility for the affair, even though she is 46. My attorney told me this ....he said the university will be hard pressed to try to keep her out of this...if it deals with anything, it'd be my H. I just don't buy that much more than a hand slap to H and university attorney maybe trying to make sure grad student is handled in such a way she won't sue university.

Someone here said talk to his boss. His boss is the Dean who himself is married to a former grad student younger woman who he left his wife for.......

Maybe so, but he would now be confronted by a BW who could possibly - if she were angry enough - knock his whole house of cards down, if she were to dig her heels in and decide to ruin her husband and, by association, the academia that supported him (read: his boss).

I just hope you get your pound of flesh out of your disloyal, [censored] husband. Sick the dogs on him, too.

Love Bank Balances.
Contrast Effect.
Non-exclusive need-meeting.
Spending their best part of each day together.
Spending time together regularly.
Never being the source of the other's unhappiness.

Affairs are easy to figure out when you figure out what they're giving each other... and for most women, physical attractiveness plays a much smaller role than for most men.

LLL

�H's activities that he WOULD NOT like made public. This information can either be used to convince my H to drop the [censored] or it could be used to privately negotiate a financial agreement advantageous to me�

So you will take your WH if you can blackmail him to give up the OW. Rational thinking at it�s finest.

Your morals match WH�s. You can�t settle on one house you have to take both? You can afford to go out and buy any new car, yet you want to fight over cars. You make a good enough living you will not get alimony. You will let the OW cheat her way through college and into your profession.

Her lawyer has advised against her exposing. Typical lawyer response. He does not want this marriage to recover. There�s no billable hours in it for him. People forget lawyers are businessmen first. He serves his personal interests first.

This affair must not really bother you LLL because you will not doing anything to stop it. You refuse to expose it. When experience here on MB has shown that exposure is the way to go.

No one is saying that you must decide to recover or divorce. You should take six months to process what has happened.

You have nothing to gain letting the OW rut with your WH.

So what is it you want? You can't control the outcome. You can only be the messenger.

Marriage builders is great but it doesn't take ANY ACCOUNT of the financial aspect of a marriage. In this case, she needs to LOCK IN her wealth through divorce, and if she still wants a relationship w/ this clown AND he dumps the bimbo, then so be it. Just cuz your divorced doesnt mean you can't still have a deep relationship after everyone heals. Its just saying, "You are acting very wreckless, I'm securing my assets and my future first, then we can talk about trying to rebuild our relationship, less I find a hot pool boy first" DUDE

I disagree. Nothing immoral at all about maximizing her recovery as compensation for the assault that her H has committed against her.
There are consequences to hurting folks. Both civil and criminal law recognize this. The fact that she has some resources is irrelevant. Her damages are still incredible. She has been hurt beyond belief. This will affect her the rest of her life.
Her course of action depends on which route she wants to o, reconciliation or divorce. If it is divorce, use every tool in your aresnal to get restitution for this horrible attack on you.

I boughttwo sports cars w/ fwxw retirment money! DUDE

If they weren't Bugatti Veyrons, I think you came out short.

No Bugattis for Texans. Too complicated. Vikes kicked butt.

And can you drive both at once? So what it the point? Was it worth it? Really. Sounds like you are bragging over chewing the leftover grissle on the "onetime a family" bones. Gross

hehehe no kidding....pants on the ground.


LLL -- you're so much healthier and in a much stronger position than most betrayed wives. Take your time. Work from logic, not emotion. I admire your strength!

The cowboys looked HORRIBLE..I still can't believe it. Ok, Im a TEXANS fan now! DUDE

Wow, you must really be desperate. I see more Aeros stickers in Houston than Texans stickers.

Time to bring Lance Rentzel out of retirement.

Just because I choose to use information strategically and not blurt out everything I know doesn't mean I intend to just let them go on their merry way with no consequences. There are other ways to accomplish getting Hot Pants effectively out of our profession that will be just as deadly but keep me from getting sued for libel, slander or whatever. Other ways to let give the grant givers a heads up on misuse of funds. You don't have to use a sledge hammer to be deadly and effective. Sometimes a velvet hammer is better than a sledge hammer.

Also, yeh, call me vindictive. Why shouldn't I negotiate for everything I can get if I'm leaving. He should feel some consequences for his actions. He chose the route of lying, cheating , deception, mistreatment of me instead of facing me honestly and saying he wanted out. I'm probably walking and taking as much as I can get with me.....only fair for pain and suffering. And why should I leave anything extra for Hot Pants or the 2nd Mrs. Prof?

Lady,
You're very angry and rightfully so. He knows you know about the A but he hasn't left you yet. Let's do a hypothetical for a minute: Let's say the A is brought out into the open and the fantasy is shattered. Let's say he starts to realize his stupid behavior and wants to try to work with you on saving your M. What would you do then? Do you love him enough to want to try and save your M or are you so hurt you know you will not get beyond his A and even if OW dumps him you, want nothing to do with him?

Gg

Just caught up. LLL, you are doing just great. Get all the info you can. Knowledge is power!

Before the truth fully came out my H gave me the "We can just be friend" line also. I basically told him if he ends up with OW we will NEVER, EVER be friends again. I think when the BS approaches the WS from the position that he/she are not going to be a wimp it begins to deflate their fantasy. Like, "You mean you, me, and OW can't all be best buddies? You mean you won't be my friend if I keep boinking OW?"

Regarding whether your H has done this before, I can only tell you my experience. We had our ups and downs throughout our M, but were always able to work through things. When he was in his A he acted just like your H. My H was cold, critical, and also slept on his edge of the bed. I was planning on leaving him because I couldn't stand it anymore, which is why the truth began to emerge. I know it's difficult to hear this when you are so POed, but these As are nothing more than addictions. It's someone going to a party and deciding to try crack because they'd never get addicted. It's a slippery slope into an A. They start out casually, then the sharing starts, maybe an IM, a slightly more personal email, etc, etc, etc. It's oh so very common and boring. Pure La La Land! After my H dumped OW I could actually see him defog. His eyes were "Lyin Eyes" and they began to clear up. Unless you witness this it's hard to believe.

Recovery is not an easy road. You have every right to dump him or not. Just realize that there are a lot of WSs that actually were decent people who got really, really screwed up. And every day for at least 2 years I wasn't sure if I wanted my H. I wasn't ready to end the M but I took my ring off and didn't consider us Med for a long time. I also believe that the BS needs to raise the bar very high in recovery and if the FWS won't do what it takes to recover, Adios.

Frankly, I think you should do this only if you intend on not letting him come home, as it were.

Be vengeful all you like only if you intend on Ding him.

If you ask me today, I'm so angry and hurt that I don't think I want him back. Everyone here says not to make a rash decision based on anger. I'm waiting, partly because I want more info from PI, partly because I realize my mental state is not as rational as usual, and partly because attorney has asked me to be strategic in my plans and give it a little more time before I take definitive action.

I realize this allows the affair to continue. I also realize that if my H cared much for me he would have been more affected by discovery by me of his cheating. He has not asked to be forgiven, tried to bargain to keep Hot Pants as student while "working" on our marriage, done about everything typical of a person who wants to maintain the facade of marriage while carrying on with someone else. So, I feel like I'm the beard for his relationship with Hot Pants, and I hate it. Exposure would be a tremendous relief so these to hypocrits would hopefully lose their reputations and their work. However, as I've stated before, the academic environment will not yield an explosive result from exposure....it'll probably be more like "ho-hum.....what else is new?' Hot Pants will NOT be dealt with by university as they will do anything and everything to avoid a lawsuit....so they will let her scoot by with degree hoping she keeps her mouth shut and stays away from liability attorneys. She is the victim in their mentality.

Hot Pants and my H can be exposed eventually and they will never know what hit them.....I can be silent but deadly.

I believe you about academic environment. I read true story "Happens Every Day" written by actress married to professor who cheated and the academic environment didn't care and didn't do anything to help the BW. Your WH is an alien right now - he is wrapped up in the fantasy - he's not thinking of you or your M. Have you read the Newsletter Forum on when to call it quits?


Pepper's Carrot & Stick of Plan A
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2296499#Post2296499

Plan A&B
Plan A & Plan B

Your WH is typical of a wayward.

It really sucks, and really hurts.

I wouldn't be dealing with the dean, though, when you expose. I would be going over his head, for sure!

Your anger is very normal, we just want to caution you about any decisions at this early date.

You sound strong and very together. This is great. I was a total mess and couldn't function. So you are doing great!

I'm so glad to see that you know you are worthy of the best! Whatever you decide you will have help from this board to get through it!

Best wishes, so far, so good! (((((LLL))))

I was wondering if the keylogger came up with any pertinent news.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Just thinking aloud here. Ladylonglegs, I admire you and as I said in my very first reply to you, feel somehow akin to you in your resolve and logical thinking.

What I don't find is any of the "dithering" -- for lack of a better word -- that many/most betrayed spouses exhibit here. When I first arrived, I was like you: That's it, we're DONE. Straight to the lawyer, got the agreement drawn up, even got her to sign it, and presto -- on the D track.

But I wasn't sure that's what I wanted. This was, after all, the woman I asked to marry me. The one I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. That she all of a sudden pulled the plug on that sent me into a tailspin of confusion, doubt, hurt, anger and anguish.

I came here and poured my heart and soul out. I got a lot of good -- and sometimes conflicting -- information. But I found that my once firm resolve wasn't as firm as all that, and I entertained ideas of trying to rescue my marriage.

That's not where I am today, and I'm okay with that. But I gave every option a look-see and tried to work the MB principles as best I could under the circumstances. THAT is what gives me peace and satisfaction with where I am today.

And in case I haven't mentioned it, I'm still married, but in the "waiting period" mandated by the state. Unless some true miracle occurs between now and then, I will become a bachelor again by late April of this year.

My wife has moved out. She's taken all of her things (and a few of mine, but nothing irreplaceable) and all that remains is to return the car she's driving, which is mine.

Forgiveness is better than revenge, for forgiveness is the sign of a gentle nature, but revenge is the sign of a savage nature.
--Epictetus


Just a thought I had while reading through.
As I stated earlier, Feel with your emotions, act with your logic. Do not confuse the two.
(((LLL))) You seem to know what you are doing.

Have no idea where H is tonight. Got home from work and housekeeper hadn't seen him all day. Guess he's just using this as a place to change clothes and sleep (maybe). Dogs are keeping me company and I tried to eat but not doing so well. I'm losing weight pretty fast and haven't had the energy to run for a couple of days.....just too tired and stressed. I'm hoping PI gets what attorney thinks we need so we can move this along. I might as well be divorced.....I'm alone at home most of the time anyway. My sister called and is worried about me but I'm really ok I think. I hate all this crap, the anger, the self-blame because I feel so dumb for not figuring all this out weeks ago. Then I tell myself I'm not dumb and this isn't my fault that I chose to honor my mother with the care she deserved in the last 6 months of her life. Then I wonder if Hot Pants and H have been an item longer than that, although when I trace back I think things were normal for us until 5 or so months ago. Oh geeze....can I spend months and years dealing with this stuff.....I'm not sure I'm cut out to spend years trying to win back H from the whore.

barbiecat....I pick savage tonight....who was that woman who accidently ran over her cheating H 3 times?

As is your right.

Clara Harris, I think.

They gave her 20 years as a "light" sentence because it was done in the heat of the moment. It was in the hotel parking lot where she had seen him come fresh from the act of betrayal.

Does THAT bring back memories! That lady was a dentist here where I live. Drove over him at the local hotel I attend meetings at. Her dentist partner lives on my street (they had to shut down the practice after she was sent away).

Ah, we call that the Infidelity Diet around here. We've all been on it. Two years ago I weighed barely 101 and looked like I something that had been dead for at least a month.


Exactly the way I felt. Maybe that's why being alone after all of this doesn't really bother me that much.

You aren't dumb. We trusted them and had no reason to suspect anything at all. There was no reason to be looking for something like that.


Much of the time, the BS has to do the heavy lifting to win the WS back. Looking back, I don't think I would have had it in me to do it.

Smartypants (who doesn't come around here much anymore) said something to me once that really made me think. After dday she did a little Plan A but in the end she cut her WH loose and chose to D. Like you, she had a great job, two dogs, and no kids. Her biggest reason was that "OP is going to be part of his emotional landscape from here on out, and I can't deal with that." Not sure I could have in the long run either.

Hi LLL
Been following. I'm so sorry you're here.

Just a thought, Perhaps you should check to see if YOUR computer has had any spy ware installed on it. Your H's hovering means he knows you're up to something online. could he have had access to it when you're sleeping or away from home?

I know some have brought up switching over to another thread. Could be a concern. Have you mentioned Marriage Builders to your H at all? or have you left any Dr. Harley books around? If so, maybe you can just edit/change the title of this thread to 'LadyLongLegs cont'd" or something like that. The title of this thread would be the first to catch his eye if he did get on here; it's that specific. Not a good idea to be be so careful holding in your plans and thoughts when he could have access to it all.

As to your posts, I'll chime in with a few observations. First of all, just a reminder that most of us are on here because it's called 'Marriage Builders' and we want to save our marriages, and many of us have a better marriage as a result of MB and our collective experience, strength, and hope. I never, ever imagined that was going to be the outcome of choosing to fight for recovery. I never dared to dream it. Our marriage had been in shambles for years, and the A should have been the last straw. But some how, like a man crazed, running from an exploding foxhole, I found that I had unimaginable strength in the midst of battle, and, even shell shocked, I could do more than I ever thought possible. I don't know how I hung in there. It was the hardest thing I ever did, and of all the things I've done in my life, it is the one thing I am the most proud of. I believe that, even if we hadn't made it, I would still be proud of having made that effort.

My H was what they call a dry drunk, sober for twenty years but still a liar and an ego driven *@^&*. I had no idea he would turn out to be the man of integrity who stands by me now. No, I'll never trust him again with other women, but he has become my best friend.

That being said, there are men (and women) who never get it. Your H may be one of them. I'm not saying you shouldn't prepare for plan D. I think you should, but I also think you should do Plan A (and I'm afraid B) as if your priority right now is to save your marriage. From reading your posts, I truly feel you're the type of person who is good at planning, setting deadlines, etc. and that will work to your advantage here. Some are too afraid to carry out A or B plans or to set boundaries and that hinders chances for recovery. Some (like me) dwell too much, too long on 'what's wrong with me?'. I don't think you're one of those either. And you don't have the fear of non support/children hanging over you. You have so much more going for you than many of us. Hey, if I was able to pull this off, the original poster child for Low Self Esteem Anonymous, then I think you've got a great chance.

In the long run, he may turn out to be more into boody than bounty, but I say give him a chance to step up and listen to the angels of his higher nature. As someone else on here said, you can always divorce him.

About the multiple affairs flags that have gone up on previous posts, I think that's highly possible, though, this affair seems to have been more impactful. (a.He's older b.She's a practiced husband snatcher) (pun intended) For dealing with your situation right now, I think other A's need to be put on the back burner until this affair is ended. Later, they can be trotted out to make sure they are included in NC or for legal purposes. Knowledge of previous affairs can also come in handy for testing BS's commitment to truth telling.

Sorry I wrote so much. We're all pulling for you LLL.

LadyLongLegs, now that you know about the A he feels free to act it out even more. This is not a good sign and shows a man that has no intention of ending it. He fell for her and it is not easy to get over those love feelings. You might have noticed that by reading on this forum.
About exposure. It is not a sure kill for the A. My H's A is still going strong and I exposed to everyone including his boss. We are both educators and work in the same place.
The work place took no position about his A. Collegues who know about it act as friendly with him as they do with me...and they know the hurt.
So at the end what the exposure did for me was to make me look like a poor victim in the eyes of the big boss and my collegues and made him look like a man...and that is what men do when they are unhappy in their M.
Sure they might think poorly of him but they sure do not show it. Instead they show it to me by patting me in the back and asking me "how are youuuu doooing???" In a commiserative little voice. It drives me crazy. They feel sorry for me and that's about it. And secretly they might even be happy we split as we were the perfect couple with a perfect son who is now at an ivy league school in the states.
4 years ago H had another A, this time with a collegue. I did not expose then...maybe that would have been noted differently but I doubt it.
All in all I think R is worth if you H is material for R. Otherwise it is best to move on. I get this from personal experience and from being on this forum now for a while.
If H comes back to you begging to want to work on the M and asking for forgiveness, then you do have R material. And this should happen in a matter of weeks not years, because the more time they spend with OW the more OW becomes part of their lives and their history...so if they come back, then they are full of doubts and you have to do all the work to get them thru withdrawal from OW etc...while you yourself are a wreck, lost weigh, lost your dignity,patience, feel abandoned, unloved...that really would drive most people insane.. Consider feeling like this for months if not years before a full R is in place...and if it is in place!
Looking at H's actions you will have to decide whether or not he is R material. He might very well be. Otherwise you are wasting time. I am talking this way also because time is no longer on our side and at our age we need to make the most of our lives....but really isn't that true at any age?
blessing

H didn't come home last night. This may be all over but the paperwork. How do you do a plan A with someone who's not here? Plan B is something he's doing to me currently it would appear. Other than the "we can be friends" speech, he's not been around.

I keep my laptop that receives the eblaster reports with me 24/7. H isn't using his laptop right now as its on his desk in our study and he hasn't been around.

I'm hoping PI has gotten lots in the last 24 hours as H certainly hasn't been home and my guess is he's w/Hot Pants.
I will call attorney today and see if we should meet again given new developments....H has basically left it would appear. I'd like to change locks on house as I don't want him to just think he can walk in and out of here as he desires. I think I need to get a written separation agreement in place .... he can't just use our home as a drop off/pick up place.

P.S. I wrote moderators to help me change my thread name, but no answer and despite going through help things here haven't figured it out.....

Hi LLL, Try writing to the forum administrator at <JustUss2@aol.com> to request a change in your thread title. In the meantime you can edit your post title by putting your cursor in the 'subject' line at the top, deleting your present title and typing in your new generic title.

Be careful doing anything (like changing the locks) prematurely without legal advice. I think you're right that you need a LSA before so it doesn't backfire on you somehow.

Ace

Before anybody comes down too hard on LLL for her morals about her thoughts regarding division of assets, she should be informed that typically, waywards are often willing to give up virtually everything initially upon discovery - probably due to guilt. However, once a little time passes, their sense of entitlement kicks in and they will fight you tooth and nail for it. In my own case, WXH was practically bribing me with more to get me to hurry up and finish writing the separation agreement. NOTE: he did not make one attempt to write it himself. He was furious when I made him wait so I could show it to a lawyer. Three days AFTER it was signed, he noticed a few things that were rounded up in my favour - including the infamous tuition payment (which was just settled in small claims court this week). I'm certain that if I had taken longer, his entitlement would have kicked in and I wouldn't have walked away with what I did. At the time, I would have risked everything to keep him, but given the way things turned out (he started bringing OW over and stealing personal things and took advantage of the fact that my mom was undergoing angiograms and bypass surgery at the same time so he knew I'd be with her and not at home), I was very lucky that I did. I was nowhere near as composed as you are and had a very difficult time trying to think rationally.

Though the emotional and spiritual matters are very important and you have been dealt a serious blow, you shouldn't neglect the financial and materialistic matters as one day you will feel emotionally and spiritually better but you won't be able to go back and recoup your losses. You are lucky to have your own income and can support yourself, as was I. But I'm glad I didn't have to start over again from scratch, either.

I know it's hard, but try to be patient. Waywards flipflop all over the place. When people stop getting the support they're used to (you letting him cheat), they exhibit 'take back!' behavior where they try to punish you to back into submission.

Remain calm, remain smart, know you're doing the right thing...it'll drive him nuts! This sometimes takes weeks or months, so don't worry about what he does on a day to day basis, ok? He probably stayed out to either (1) be with OW so he could feel good (not guilty) or (2) try to get on your last nerve by 'defying' you. Either way, you are smarter than him. Just keep taking the high road. You'll look like the better option. And he'll grow to respect you.

ladylonglegs,

Please let us know what you would like your thread title changed to be. You may let us know by either alerting on any post in this thread or by emailing any of us.

Thank you.

"H didn't come home last night. This may be all over but the paperwork. How do you do a plan A with someone who's not here?"

LLL you are as fogged up as your WH is.

How do I know?

Simple you are only her to justify that you will divorce your WH and leave him. Your just laying down the track work.

I'll let you in a big suprise. You don't have to justify plan D when your the BS. When a WH has an affair it is known as the "get out of jail free card".

How dare you complain that WH did not come home last night because he was banging the OW.

That's right, HOW DARE YOU, when you steadfast refuse to Expose.

If you truely where confused as to whether or not that you want to save this marriage is one thing.

Though you refuse to lift a finger to expose.

The most effective thing any BS can do is to expose.

Are you that uncaring to not read other poster's threads on MB.
If you did how can you not learn from their lessons?

Where the BS once afraid to then accepts exposure and does it see's the initial WS rage then the WS is pushed off the fence and wants to come back.

Why do you think it worked for them?

WS's are addicted to the OP.

WH's/Addicts have to get their OW/fix.

Once an WH/addict detox's and gets their system clean the are no longer the alien.

This is why plan A is done to show WH that life would be better without his addiction to the OW. Exposure is the high cost his addiction is costing.

So stop yanking our collective chains here. Be honest tell us you want to drop the D bomb on your WH.

SHe has been honest. She is looking at the d-bomb and trying to maximize her recovery. Not a bad idea, IMO. Exposure at this point causes her to lose leverage in the divorce.
Until such a time as a BS decides that recovery is the route he or she wants to go, this is a good stategy. He's been banging this OW for a while now and a few more bangs makes no difference.

The Road:

I find your vehement posts unhelpful and unnecessarily antagonistic. You have a one track mind on exposure without regard to many considerations necessary before I take such a step.

I have read many posts here. Some work out ok after exposure, many also do not. Exposure for simply the sake of ending the affair may or may not work. There is no guarantee. I am approaching this mess my H has created in my life with as much thought and rationality as I can and am not ready to use that at this time.

I commented about my H not coming home to simply point out to my self as well as others that H is pretty far gone. He apparently does not care what I think and is probably not hiding his relationship now. I realize he's probably addicted to OW, but he's still an adult with choices and so am I.

If you are bothered by my posts, don't read them.

YOU GO GIRL! You are doing the right thing...DUDE

I am not sure how exposure can affect any leverage LLL has in a divorce. Once again - WH will NOT lose his job or his research funding. Worst case scenario for him is some embarrassment. Likely the OW will suffer worse embarrassment and I still maintain her career is more at risk than the WH. University policies only exist to hide the true nature of the old boys clubs within them.

Failure to expose just drags things out. He's clearly not ending his A just because LLL knows. I honestly can't see how Plan A can work without the "stick" portion of it. The stick (exposure) is what destabilizes the affair. Without that destabilization, there is nothing under the sun that LLL can do to show her WH that the marriage is the better place to be. Regardless of how many EN's he allows her to fulfill, OW is going to be fulfilling more. Only by destabilizing this dynamic can the BS make even the slightest impression on the WS. The worst thing is, the longer it goes on with nothing being done about it, it will be far easier for the WH to turn things back against LLL. We've seen this before on this board countless times.

The embarrasment avoidance card is a decent one, IMO, Tabby. She and her lawyer seem to think it has value, and I would agree. I have seen some stories of a BS getting a more favorable settlement by virue of the WS wanting to avoid public exposure. Many folks seem to put a value on not having to deal with the gossip and sniggering that will follow them. And, as she has referenced, there is the misuse of grant funds card, as well.

Tabby understands MB.

MEDC, ah, I'm mean Dud(e) (he reminds so much of him) has to always push people to plan D. As if he did not get to punish his WW enough. But who is he back with now?

MB is not hard to understand. Opting for that route, is a personal choice, one declined by many fine folks.

Tabby, Ladylonglegs is NOT in Plan A.

I think the question would be, why do the people who opt not to follow MB continue to stick around here and try to convince others who come here for help that they shouldn't follow it either?

Maybe because you are not being honest with yourself?

I read here for many years before I even began to post. Your situation is not unique or speacial.

Your pain is real and honest. Your goals should be the same.

Again you complain the OM is out with the OW.

Again I call you on not doing anything to stop it.

It's not about not liking you.

It's about you not being honest. If you want to divorce say so.

All you do is say I'm not sure want I want to do.

Then your actions only say on how you want to get your WH over the barrel.

Your refuse to expose shows that you ar unwilling to do anything to save the marriage.

It's as if you are on a sinking ship. You say the ship maybe to badly damaged to save. You are not sure if you want the ship. Yet you do nothing to stop the leak. Instead you just let it slip deeper into the water.

Then you get angry an indignent when being called on it.

You don't have to believe me. I've seen so many stories since about 2004.

geeez TheRoad I'm not sure why you are so vehement.

She has NEVER said she is opposed to exposing. She's simply biding her time and being logical and strategic.

I see no reason whatsoever to jump so quickly into Plan A/exposure/carrot/stick until she knows whether or not she even WANTS to have the marriage back.

Whats the freakin rush?

She's been here 5 whole days, hired a PI, installed a keylogger, consulted an attorney, and confronted her husband. Its not like she's sitting around wringing her hands. Sheesh

Who knows? Maybe you should ask one.

I did. As is typical, I got no real answer.

Well, that must be disappointing.

Not really.

LLL

It looks like you've been jump started into a Plan B opportunity. I'd quickly take advantage of it, plus I'd expose to everyone asap. Study and follow Plan B guides lines to the letter. It's the only hope for this marriage.

I'd also expose OWs past to your WH. Maybe have the former wife of OWs former lover give your H a call and enlighten him. He needs to know her MO. Any way of finding out if she's slept with anyone else your H knows, preferably a friend or colleague? Certainly you can find someone working who knows the skinny on this gal. It would be great if one of his other doctorial students would file a complaint with the university based on preferential treatment or conflict of interest. I don't know how that can be brought about, however.

I find it interesting (if I read your posts right) that the OW broke up another marriage but the WH didn't marry her. I wonder how long it took that guy to realize he'd made a mistake. Maybe he's the one who should call your H! I believe you mentioned he was also a big fish in your husband's pond.

Again, this advice assumes you want to save your marriage.

Whew. That's good.

lexxy I left a question for you on another thread. Could you answer how it effected your BH on that thread?

I think you will find on any public bulletin board that has no membership requirements that there will be naysayers and contrarians. This place is no different.

Personally, I think a contrary point of view is helpful at times. In my case, it certainly made me think of the advisability of pursuing what could have been a disastrous course of action.

Blind allegiance without critical thought is not good, IMO.

LLL is doing a nice job using the analytical part of her brain under trying circumstances. Very impressive, IMO.

>Very impressive, IMO

I think so, too.

She is doing what EVERY BS should do. Gather evidence, lay it all out and study it, and THEN make a decision.

So many make a knee jerk reaction from the gate and ruin their stride for the rest of meet. Far better is to pace yourself and study the whole of the course so that you can study the flaws of the others on the field and use those flaws to your own advantage.

LLL,

I'm in the camp of those who think you are doing a good job protecting yourself while you consider your options. I, too, am in a long-term marriage. I did not expose, based on advice from Steve Harley, with whom we had many sessions. I do not regret that; I think it gave me more leverage in my particular situation.

We are now in recovery. It cost me a great deal emotionally. My H's affair lasted five years, going further and further underground. I don't recommend that anyone do what I did unless they know that a person of character once existed in their spouse's body, and are prepared to fight with everything they've got for as long as it takes to see that person restored. You are wise to think it over carefully right now before jumping on one side of the fence or the other.

I eventually told my H I was done, and he ended the A that day and started a very rigorous program of recovery. He has been faithful to that program and is once again actually present in our marriage. He is deeply remorseful. I can't say I'm happy just yet, but I am on the way.

A weighty factor in my case was the welfare of my three children. The youngest has multiple disabilities and will need lifetime supports. He also desperately needs two parents functioning together in a loving home. He has that.

I'd definitely have been financially better off if I had divorced early in this process. Emotionally, I am not so sure. I paid an extremely high "mental health" price to stick it out. But I have heard that while recovery from infidelity takes two years or more, emotional recovery from divorce can take much, much longer. I don't know; I didn't follow that path.

Keep your head clear and stay strong. I think you are unusual in your position of strength here. I also have been reflecting on the whole "Plan A" thing, and am concluding that one of its key functions is to give power back to the BS. Exposure, where appropriate, is a tool of power. For some, it is one of the only cards in their hand. Plan B and Plan D are also tools of power. Assess the tools you have and assess your own heart.

Waywards are aliens. They all follow the same script and nothing your H is doing is unusual at all. The lucky ones eventually come to their senses.

Keep posting.

((((((Chrysalis))))
Good Post, she does not sugar coat her reality, and shows the multiple reasons/facets for her recovery.
I have been re inspired with some of the recent posts to review my attitude.

Well, this has been an interesting day.... PI has gathered A LOT of info on Hot Pants. I really don't want to be too descriptive here except to say she is not Mary Sunshine. No history of illegal acts but let's just say how she portrays herself masks a dark side. The info is pretty definitive and comes from hard data PI gathered.

I have a feeling my H would NOT be amused by what I've learned. I doubt he has any idea..... Or should I say my "old husband" would not have wanted to be associated with someone with her ethics and morals.....however he's not so squeeky clean himself at this point.

I don't know what to do with this info. I'm thinking. If I sit H down and try to give him this info, he'll likely blame the messenger and deny she could have a history like she does. He's not the same person, so I don't think that would work. Can you expose one person in the affair???? The info is nothing she can be thrown out of university for.....more related to family stuff and her history of marriages, divorces and affairs.

As you can see, I'm sort of paralyzed right now .... need to tread carefully here....

Would the PI sit down with WH and present his data?

That way, you are not the messenger.

Just a thought ....

Again, I want some time to think....I'd have to tell H I've hired PI, this would put him into high defense mode I'm sure. I'm just about fried thinking about all of this.....this is NOT how I envisioned spending my days at age 53.....too much drama.

WH's do not want to be educated. He will refuse to hear, read, listen to anything about the OW that you or the PI can provide.

If by chance you can get him to listen to the dirt on the OW he will refuse to believe it.

@ladylonglegs,

What's keeping you from booking an appointment with Steven Harley or Jennifer Harley Chalmers? Both are experts at recovery from infidelity, and one session for $195 has made a WORLD of difference in my marriage... enough so that even though I have to save up for a while, I'm really looking forward to our next session.

The thing that keeps people away is the expense. But hang the expense. Talk with coaches who have experience at saving THOUSANDS of marriages apiece. They also have ample experience at helping those in divorce, too.

We've given you a sort of rough road-map here. But you are experiencing the kinds of things that are best helped with by a counselor:

LadyLongLegs, from where I sit, it looks like you're hitting all three good reasons to see a pro-marriage, experienced counselor.

I think I do need to talk to H about what I know. I think he's still a smart enough guy to investigate her on his own if I can at least put a question in his head. I know he's addicted. I know he won't believe me. But maybe it will shake his befuddled brain enough to question on his own.

If nothing else, maybe some day he will appreciate that I at least tried to save him from himself. I have no illusions it will change anything at this moment, and I'm sure he'll claim I'm slandering her from jealousy or malice.

LLL, where does your WH believe you stand ......

1) she's divorcing me
2) she wants to stay M'd even if I still keep OW as my student
3) she wants to stay M'd only if I dump OW as my student

You are between 1) or 3)
WH wants 2), or has he given you the impression that he is fine with 1)

Do you think that you can discuss with WH what he sees in his future with you?
I only recall the one conversation you mentioned where he said that he was sorry that you were unhappy, blah blah blah. All typical babble but no real idea of what his plans were ..... R or D.

Would this help guide your future?

What if your WH is still with OW cuz he knows you are wanting D, and just simply getting your ducks in a row.
His mentality may be ..... 'well poor me, LLL is leaving me so I might as well hold tight with Hot Pants'
I know this is not how it should be, he should be at your feet begging for mercy to take him back, under whatever conditions you ask for.

You both have lived very independently, you've stated this, so this is why I wonder, might he be assuming you are just heading for D without telling him and now has the mentality of 'poor me'?

Never underestimate the wacky mind of a wayward!

p.s. giving WH the goods on HP, I think even if it came from the PI, he would say that you both made it up, that's it's a conspiracy, lol.
Plus, he needs to give HP up cuz he wants to R, not cuz she is a skank.

If the information is readily available on the internet, you could protect your source by insinuating that you came across it on your own. He can then believe or not believe and/or research it on his own.

Just an option.


BTW I think you're handling this amazingly, whether you choose to D or R!

I second, on the call to the Harley's. They will be able to help you sort out some of that tangled yarn mess in your head.

You should be warned too about the extreme lows, and panic attacks that follow infidelity.
These happen for obvious and the not so obvious reasons, and you will continue to experience these for quite some time.
They are crippling and overwhelming, but know that these feelings do fade with time.

Vittoria:

I have been thinking about just what you described above. I'm not sure H knows what I want because I've never specified anything other than he can't be with me if he's involved with her. I haven't discussed divorce, separation, nothing. In fact, after our "we can be friends" discussion the other night, we've literally said nothing to each other and he hasn't been around. I don't know if he'll come home tonight or not. Been since Tuesday night when I saw him last.

I am pretty decided to ask for he and I to meet and talk to see where we both are in this mess. Surely we can sit down for 30 minutes and try to discuss what he intends to do and I can talk about my feelings (as all over the place as they are). We have a 29 year history. I need to give it a try. Frankly, what do I have to lose by trying to figure out where this is headed? I know it will probably yield nothing, but ....

I am probably going to call the Harleys.

Well, you don't know unless you ask.
Keep your composure, whatever comes out of his mouth that is pathetic and stupid, just look at him like he has 2 heads.
(right now he does, and the old straight one, is on strike!)

I don't believe you can talk to the Harley's stat, so I would call or email ASAP for an appt.
Good decision LLL, I don't believe that you will regret it, regardless of how this plays out.

FYI, if R is even a remote possibility, there is an MB seminar at the end of this month. <------ seedling

Has the PI tailed you WH the last 24 hours? I betcha he ran right out of the house, and over to hotpants place. If so, this could be the shortest investigation of all time.

PI told me H spent the night at hotpants apt last night. Surprise, surprise. Probably don't need PI much longer. He's good. 3 days and he's got the goods on H and even more on hotpants.

Called H. Got him on his cell. Gee, wonder where he is???? I told him we need to talk. He said OK. We're meeting tomorrow.

*edit*

Make sure you focus on yourself and your goals tomorrow. I would not talk at all about hotpants..(well maybe insinuate that you have some into about her...but let him wonder)

You need to have a script and stick to it. Meet at a neutral place, I would make it a quiet but public place. Do not plan on being there a long time, have an excuse or a place to go-- mention this early-- so you have a polite "out"-- he is in FOG and all you are going to hear is FOGSPEAK (translation: garbage and lies).

The goal of this meeting is to get your info to him, get a reading from him, but cause as much disruption you can between HP and WH.

If you are the "common enemy" they will be driven closer-- if you do not put yourself in that position, that will be helpful for you. Try not to lovebust, leave the conversation before you do.
NOTE: I did not say you have to be a doormat, either. You can do this.

dsd: No, but what does that have to do with anything?

*edit*

This sounds like a good idea.

Ace

.I am sorry for asking.

*edit*

One thing that helped me was to write down my list of goals pro/con for R or D. Then I jumped into my virtual time machine (I was the same age as you with no financial security) and tried to picture my life after Plan D. Details in my story linked to my sig line. We've been in recovery now for 3 years and our M is a trillion times better than it was for the first 30 years. Ours is the exception, I know but I share it so you realize that you have many things going for you that you may be taking forgranted. Writing things down will help with this process. Speaking with the Harleys will help you formulate your plan.

Best wishes to you,
Ace

ladylonglegs

Why are you on MB. MB say's expose. You won't. MB says you can't educate a WS you are going to attempt so now.

You don't want help. You do not want to be told that what you need to do. You want to hear that your way is the best way.

Well at least you get to vent here.

Lady Long Legs appears to be an intelligent, articulate, educated woman who has been caught unawares, as we all were and is dealing with this calmly and thoughtfully. She is weighing her options and has been proactive in everything that she has done this week considering that she is in that state of betrayed shock.

Dr Harley does NOT always recommend nuclear exposure. He bases it on the individual case and personalities. Chrysallis reminded us of this a few pages back. Plexie was also "encouraged" here to expose and when she counseled with the Harleys told not to.

LLL is working on her plan and continuing to listen to advice here. She has no idea now what her BH is planning. A conversation could do no harm at this point. She has not rulled out exposure.

Road why are you browbeating her.
God's Blessings,

Say

LLL;

Read all the advice.
Take the steps you deem necessary, when you feel ready. I have read for years and I learn things all the time here.

Have you ordered the Surviving an Affair book? At least you will gain perspective of what it is going to take if you decide to recover.

LLL, before you meet with him today, make a list of questions. Take the list with you and make notes of his answers. It is both a psychological advantage (he will be far more careful about what he chooses to lie about) plus it will keep you focused on your task without getting over-emotional. It's very easy for emotions to get out of control in these situations.

Didn't sleep much last night. I am ready to try to find out where he's at in this mess and if he has already made a final decision on what he is going to do. This limbo is driving me crazy and its not doing my health any good. Have lost 7 pounds in two weeks. I wasn't overweight to start with, so the stress is getting to me. Can't face food much and even my nightly glass of wine is burning my stomach.

I will mainly listen. I am hoping (but not optimistic)he's not so far gone that he can face me honestly and tell me what he wants. I think back to the conversation we had earlier this week when he said we could be friends....gag. If that's all the kind of conversation I get, this will be non-productive. I figure I've got a slim chance this will yield anything positive because he's "under the influence"....

However, I will ask him what he sees as our future if I ever get past the crap he'll probably put out initially. I will tell him that there is a possibility we could put this relationship back together but that there would need to be some basic conditions met such as severing all ties of any kind to Hot Pants, counseling, STD testing, a post-nup contract spelling out all financial split of assets in the event the marriage does not ultimately survive.

I know, I'm talking to someone other than the man I knew before. I guess I just have to try to act like a reasonable adult with him before we go further down this road of craziness.

You are doing great, LLL. I did not find MB until a month or so after D-Day so I was running on my faith in God and my own instincts. I waited ten days after I found the damning text messages before I confronted him and I did a stellar Plan A during that ten days. By the time I sat down with him I had made my own decisions and was at peace with them. I had decided that I loved him with all his imperfections, that I was willing to address my own part in the condition of our M preA, that I was able (and had a plan) if he chose to leave the M and I knew what I expected him to do if I allowed him to stay. If I had found MB earlier, my bar for recovery would have been set higher but we have worked through that and now have a renewed M. Through all of that, I was calm and loving in his presence and awake and throwing up most of the other times.

You have a plan. Go with it. Make your decisions after you talk to him. My H was amazed, humbled and grateful that I was willing to try to recover the M. He went NC immediately.

I am praying for you and your M.

God's Blessings,

Say

.....what Say Says, especially emphasized below:


Ace

LLL wrote:

"I will mainly listen. I am hoping (but not optimistic)he's not so far gone that he can face me honestly and tell me what he wants."

What he wants is probably to cake eat. It is very difficult for these WSs to go cold turkey. It is like stopping heroine abruptly. What you can do is be very clear about your boundaries. You love him, although might not exactly be crazy about him at the amount. You are willing to give the M a shot given your history and the great R you have had. However, Little Miss Thing needs to go!!!

If your H was a decent guy the PI info hopefully will help a lot. Our OW told lies about a man who was a very close friend to both of us who worked for H. H confided some stuff about things OW said, I broke that confidence after d-day to this friend, and he told H the truth about OW. Although H didn't want to admit her manipulating ways, I believe that knowledge began to chip away at his fantasy of her. I also said things to H such as "I have never seen you be this bad of a person in all of the years I've known you. Is this what your great love is all about? Becoming a schmuck?" That might not be recommended on MB. I also said to H "Can you picture me out of your life forever?" He never could.

Stay as cool as you can, look good, and show you H what a class act you are compared to the skanky 'B". Also, I never had to expose. I would have if he didn't dump the "B".

It is too early to ask what he wants. Obviously he want Hot Pants right now.

If he says he wants a divorce, you can state that "I don't want one. I want a thriving marriage with you". (even if you are leaning the other way now.)

It buys you time, sets a plan A wave of love over everything and gives you practise being a Giver. Your Taker is trying to gain control here which never helps anything.

You can state the other stuff briefly about requirements but at this point, even if there is potential to rebuild the marriage, he won't be agreeable to any of it.

He is addicted to whatever emotional needs Hot Pants has hit on to meet.

You can think about what those might be. Which ones you were not fulfilling and practise meeting them as well as you can for now.

Plan A is actually fun once you have gotten into the spirit of it and discovery day is further away in the past.

You are your best self. You build love bank units (MB concept) in his soul and even if you two split, he has good impressions of you

which

is

power

LLL,

How did it go today?

Well, if the world were as it should be, my H should be on psychiatric ward. Talking to him was like trying to make sense with a delusional psychotic.

First, our meeting was civil, restrained. We met around lunch at what used to be a favorite bar/grill. Arrived early and got a booth way in the back where its quieter. Folks looking at us probably thought we were discussing our stock portfolios. We kept our voices low, and except for an occasional tearing up (me)we looked like nothing out of the ordinary.

I asked H to please explain to me his intentions and what he wants. Here's a brief list....

-wants space
-I'm too controlling
-is just friends with OW
-I'm asking him to give up his friends
-doesn't want a divorce
-he'll move out if I want him to (he's already been gone for 3 days
-he isn't in love with OW
-we can be friends

I asked what his opinion was of what I should do while he's engaged in an adulterous affair with a student. He said its not an affair. I told him I have proof he spent the last two nights at her apartment. He was surprised, asked how I knew...said that's my business. Then he says he slept on the couch.

I asked him what about your career, having sex with an advisee. He said "its not going to effect my career". "We're not having sex". I said even if that's true, and I'd have to be an idiot to buy that story, you are having an inappropriate relationship with a student. I already showed you copies of all the emails I initially found when I discovered your affair. There are ethics policies in your university against such behavior. Him: "Unless a harrassment suit is filed the university doesn't get involved, and Hot Pants would never do that."

I told him I might be willing to work on our marriage if he would immediately go provable NC with OW, get into counseling and commit to working on saving our marriage. He said he would do the last two but not give up advising OW. "It wouldn't be fair to her." I said "what about what's fair to your wife of 29 years?" He said, "I shouldn't have to choose between you and my work".

I then said, I'm not able to agree to staying married to you if she's in the picture in any way. He said you're asking me to make a choice. I said yes, it should be an easy choice...your wife or your student who is supposedly just a friend. If she's just a friend but you're willing to lose your wife for that friendship, it tells me everything. He said "I shouldn't have to give up friendships to have a wife." You're being controlling as usual. Want to tell me how to run my life.

At that, I said we're getting no where. This is my life, too. I knew what I needed to know. I need to leave. And I left.

I had cleared my schedule and taken afternoon off, which is a good thing because I was no shape to go back to the office. I maybe did a stupid thing, but I have known and been friends socially for 20 years with one of the office administrative assistants who works in my H's department. She and I have become pretty good friends and when she was ill and took a leave of absense for a while I would go visit her and take her treats to eat. She was alone because she had a H who left her when she was in her late 40's and her daughter was at college when she was ill, so I worried she was alone so much. Anyhow, I called her and she could tell I was upset and she agreed to leave work and meet me. I laid the whole ugly mess out to her and she started crying and apologized to me. She said she knew H and OW were an item and so does everyone else, faculty and students, but because they aren't flaunting it no one says or does anything. She said this is not unusual here which I already knew. She said she was hoping it would pass and H would get his head on straight and I would never have to know. She felt conflicted but didn't feel it was her place to tell me. I said I would have appreciated knowing but I understand its awkward.

I'm home now. H not here. I left a message for attorney and am pretty certain I will file ASAP. I am going to ask for mediation to split assets in written contract immediately. I would like our primary home, the dogs, my car I paid for and him to buy me out of my half of boat and jointly owned 3rd car. We have separate investments, retirement, etc. and want us each to walk away with our own. Once divorce is final I will do total exposure to grant sources, upper administration in university and anyone else I can think of. I want out of this craziness NOW.

(((LLL)))

Besides the sickening effect of that...

He thinks of his trashy trampy plastic hot pants Flashdance wannabe as work?

Bullchit.

Of course he did. That's exactly why she wants to be sure not to be seen as the cause of his marital breakup--so he could sleep on her couch. How DARE you be so cynical?!

tl

So you had to have your big lunch didn't you.

You were told WH would not take being educated, though you had to try teaching him anyway.

You were able to prove to WH that you had proof. Big deal all WH did was to just make up excuses to deny an affair and justify keeping his friend.

Classic WH behavior saying that the BW is the problem for making the WH have to give up a good friend. Picking on the poor OW for wanting him to give up being her adviser.

Then you attempted to black mail WH with ""its not going to effect my career". "We're not having sex"... you are having an inappropriate relationship with a student. I already showed you copies of all the emails I initially found when I discovered your affair. There are ethics policies in your university against such behavior. Him: "Unless a harrassment suit is filed the university doesn't get involved""

"Once divorce is final I will do total exposure to grant sources, upper administration in university and anyone else I can think of."

To late to expose. You exposure will not count because you will no longer be married.

You won't be viewed as a BW looking to save her marriage. Rather you will viewed as a vindictive XW that is out for revenge because her marriage went bad.

An even if the university wanted to go after the OW. By the time your D was final she would of have already recieved her degree. Working in your field.

The law suit potential because these allegations will come out to late so the university won't want to touch this issue with a ten foot diploma.

You are so worried about material possessions.

You only can live in one house at a time.

You only can drive one car at a time.

Even if the judge gave everything to the WH you can still take care of yourself finiancially and then some.

So the way I see it you investments and pensions are separate. If you sold all of the joint marriage property and split the money 50/50 you will be ahead by not spending a fortune on legal costs.

Is it better to be right or would you rather continue to prove that you're dead right?

As I said before you did not buffalo me. You were here to just justify D'ing your WH. Somehing that never had to be justified just done.

You were told your actions would not bring WH to end the affair.

You refused to do the proven things that would bring an end to the affair.

Give it a break, Road. LLL is perfectly justified to decide to take this course of action as are all BS that have their world blown apart by adultery. You have no right to judge her heart or her intentions.I too think that she should expose but your bitter attitude destroys your credibility, especially in this case.

(((((LLL)))))

God's Blessing's

Say

Hi LLL.....I've been following your thread. I'm very sorry you are going through this h3ll.

You probably already know this, but here's some validation for you.....

This is what your [censored] husband is REALLY saying.....

-wants space = so that I can carry on my affair in peace, without feeling guilty. Because if I was doing it in your presence, I'd have to deal with what an ahole I'm being. And I'm too much of a selfish scumbucket at the moment to want to do that.

-I'm too controlling = I have to blame you (deflection) so I don't have to take the rap for the awful way I am behaving.

-is just friends with OW = I know my wife is not stupid enough to buy this crap I'm spewing, but I HAVE to save face somehow....and we really are friends. Ha...see, that's true enough, I'm not lying. I'm a GOOD guy.

-I'm asking him to give up his friends = another blame game so he doesn't have to take the rap for his horrid behavior. (I bet you've NEVER asked him to give up a friend in the past though)

-doesn't want a divorce = Cuz I like eating cake, and want everything my way.

-he'll move out if I want him to (he's already been gone for 3 days = See? I'm a GOOD guy. Look how reasonable I'm being.

-he isn't in love with OW = just likes cake.

-we can be friends = Because that's how GREAT of a [censored] I am! (He's so delusional he actually thinks he's worthy of being your friend. He apparently doesn't know what a friend is.)

Do what you need to do for you LLL, whatever that may be.

MAKE yourself eat HEALTHY food. That is the first thing you need to do. Try some soup and crackers. Take care of yourself first, then [censored] can come later.

If the "proven" things to bring an affair to an end are so effective, why do I read of so many on this site who used those techniques and in many cases the marriages didn't make it in the long run? It might work for some, but there are no guarantees and at 53, I don't have years to wait to see if my H is one of the ones who will come back. "Proven" should be changed to "possible".

The Road.....what part of "LLL doesn't know if she wants this marriage or not yet" don't you get?

She is an intelligent woman. She understood the risk of waiting or not to expose. Why are you badgering her?

This is not your life, it is hers.

Quite frankly, if I had known my H was in an active affair when he was in it, I would have gone straight to plan FU. There are only a few people in this world that can plan A, be nice, do the exposure thing, within a short time after their whole world has been turned upside down.

Lay off will ya?

Sometimes the affair doesn't end until it's too late.

Ask believer. The important part is to build YOURSELF. You don't want a marriage at all costs. You want either a healthy marriage or no marriage.

Being alone is better than being with someone so terrible as to cheat whenever they want...

" LLL is perfectly justified "

To divorce, I agree it's her choice.

To be phoney, no way!

"If the "proven" things to bring an affair to an end are so effective, why do I read of so many on this site who used those techniques and in many cases the marriages didn't make it in the long run? It might work for some, but there are no guarantees and at 53, I don't have years to wait to see if my H is one of the ones who will come back. "Proven" should be changed to "possible"."

You are within your right to choose to D.

I have and no one at MB says that it is 100% effective.

As to the long run, your 53 and have a good chance to go to 83.

You can't have it both ways.

You claim where you have read about MB failures. Yet you choose to not place the spot light on the poster's that were going nowhere to get their WS back until they followed MB ways.

MB has never promised 100% success.

MB gives the BS the best odds, best chance to recover their marriage.

Your fog babble to us is just as bad as your WH's to you.

The things you have done here have shown no attempt to recover your marriage.

Only to gain support to get back at your WH, get what is "yours".

This is why I say you are acting in a phoney way.

You say you don't know what you want to do.

Then you only do non MB things that will not end the affair. Just do things to give your lawyer ammunition to nail your WH to the wall.

The Road...I know you mean well, and you've given good advice regarding the exposure. It's just I don't think continuing to beat her over the head with it is helping. And yes, sometimes we do have to break out the 2x4's with some people. But you did that already. Not everyone will just do something blindly without sorting it out first.

It's hard to know exactly what to do when your head is spinning. It's easier for us to see because we've seen it so many times. She hasn't.

There are a lot of people on this board that wished that they had done certain things differently. We are not perfect. For all we know it wasn't God's timing either.....if you believe in that.

Well, LLL has already said that she wants the primary residence, her car, and for her WH to buy her out of the 3rd car and the boat. I'm assuming that she plans to let him have the other home. That is an equal division of joint assets, I think.

LLL IS perfectly entitled to file for divorce.

However, I agree that she should go ahead and expose her WH and Hot Pants NOW. Exposure right now will not affect the equal division of assets.

I think that exposure right NOW, since Hot Pants seems to be terrified of it, is LLL's best option. After all, if the affair is exposed BEFORE LLL files for divorce, then Hot Pants can't claim she and LLL's WH got together AFTER the divorce.

I would definitely smash that precious so-called reputation that Hot Pants thinks she has, and the sooner, the better.

While not a guarantee, it might indeed still bust up the affair, and make it less likely that Hot Pants will get to enjoy living in LLL's other home.

I would not wait any longer on exposure, LLL. Make sure you word it very carefully, so that you do not come across as being vindictive, but do it ASAP. THEN, file for divorce. If you can file on grounds of adultery and name Hot Pants as the OW, it will be a public record of what she is. Two nights of your WH staying overnight at her place is all the evidence you need, I think.

LLL,

While I'm saddened that you see no hope for your marriage after this betrayal and lying about it, I sincerely empathize. In fact, Dr. Harley does, too. Here's what he has to say from the last few minutes of his free Infidelity video:

Exposure before filing for divorce (you can always stop it!) is best, because as someone already said, if you do it before filing, the OW can't say that she and your WH got together after the divorce.

Blow it up in his face, make the affair unattractive to him. Make having OW in his life way too difficult. Shine the light and he'll rage for a bit but he WILL see that it's not a good idea.

Ok...Lady Clueless...help me here. I am thinking I will go ahead and expose. Is this recommended even when I'm done with H? I don't think I have it in me to forgive or go through a long process of bending myself into pretzels to get him back.

I agree OW should not be getting degree or being in profession and H has crossed many lines. Maybe it is my befuddled mind at this point, but who the heck do I expose to besides writing a letter to grant administrators about possible use of funds for other than grant-related purposes? H has no living immediate family. H's colleagues and students already know. My sister knows, otherwise I have no immediate family living. OW has been estranged from her immediate family for a long time according to PI and they live across the country from here. OW has two ex's out of the picture and no children. So, WHO DO I EXPOSE TO THAT DOESN'T ALREADY KNOW????

Just the admins, then. MAke sure to include the phrase "possible lawsuit" when speaking of OW. Does your H have any friends he is close to? Expose to them too.

Oh and prepare for lots of venom when you expose. All WSes fling venom when exposure happens...

Well, here's a problem. The property settlements should be pretty cut and dried, but I DO NOT WANT TO LOSE MY DOGS. In fact, I am going to ask my H if he will sign a separate agreement ASAP that I can have full custody of the dogs. So don't want to make him furious with me till this is done.

Expose to OW's parents (if alive and well). A disappointed mother or father can be best weapon.

There are two things that stood out with your lunch talk. Your WH wants to keep you and the marriage with added benefit of keeping OW - this is typical cakeeating. He's not 100% sure about his stupid decisions. Exposure will help but not in the academic environment but it will put pressure on them and make their A dirty where as it is now for them - it's all roses and doesn't stink.

Gg

Do they have Facebook accounts? Expose to every person on Facebook with a very brief note. It's helpful to print out all the names before you start writing, otherwise once you start sending notes the husband and his affair partner will block you to keep you from seeing who their friends are.

Does your husband use email? Who does he email the most? Expose to those people, using his address book, and a similar letter (or phone call, if you know them, too).

Does your husband call people? Use the telephone numbers on his mobile phone, call each of those people to ask for their advice in how to help your husband see the pain he is causing and persuade him to return to the marriage.

Does your husband have any correspondents? Find their addresses and expose to them.

Does your husband admire any individuals a great deal? Find their phone numbers and ask for their help in convincing your husband to do the right thing.

Does your husband have friends? Confidants? Particularly if they were really good friends in the past but he's grown more distant since starting his affair... those are GREAT people because the affair will shock them into action, remind him of who he used to be, and have enormous influence helping him do the right thing.

LLL, I know that you're doing this exposure for your own reasons... but it's serving two purposes. You can always proceed with the divorce. You're never giving up that chance. But exposure right now is a choice that satisfies your desire to end the affair, and gives the best possibility of recovery as well as those goals you've mentioned.

LLL,

Those proven things brought my husbands affair to an end. It took about 4 months altogether, but it ended.

MB saved my marriage, and gave me the skills to recover it. We are very happy and I have a much better H. And, I am a better wife.

I was remiss in meeting some of his EN's, but that is another story. It was still no excuse for his A.

There are many people here who have recovered their marriages using the MB method.

It doesn't always work, and it is your choice what you want.

I do know that you are being smart about this. And you are very early into this.

Exposure does have a very powerful effect. So does filing for divorce. Your WS is very foggy, and I don't know what will shock him out of it. I do know he would be very angry at exposure and could be gaslighting you about no one at his work caring. Your marriage can survive his anger, but not his affair if it keeps up. Are you concerned about him losing his career and financial stability if you expose?

It sounds like you are very independent, and you and your WS have had your finances mostly separate for a long time. Did you do a lot of things together?

Of course you will make your own decisions, I am just throwing a few things out there for you to ponder.

Anyway, I am starting to ramble. You have had quite a few people post to you that have recovered their marriages.

Best of luck to you. I really wish you the best and can see you have a very level head.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Expose LLL. It is the right thing to do. You don't want the man that your WH is right now. You do love the man he was. Exposure may bring him back. He will first get very, very angry and tell you that you have ruined any chance that your M ever had. If that is true, you are mentally and financially prepared for it. If it brings your DH back it will have been very worth it.

As for your dogs, he has already deserted them. Just keep them. I am no attorney but I doubt he has a legal leg to stand on.

Hotpants deserves to be exposed. She is a predator as is your BH. Save others from him.

God's Blessings,

say

LLL, even though you are planning to divorce your WH, I would send the letter as though I wanted to save my marriage.

"Dear So-sand-so,
WH is having an adulterous affair with Miss Hot Pants, one of his students. This has been extremely painful for me, and I would appreciate anything you can do to encourage WH to do the right thing and stop committing adultery. If you can offer me any advice, please do so."

To the head honcho at the university (and be sure to cc to all the board members and other higher ups so it won't be as likely to be swept under the rug), I would say,

"Dear Mr. So-and-so,

I have learned that WH and his student, Miss Hot Pants, are engaging in an adulterous affair.

Such an improper relationship can have very negative consequences for the university, particularly if they are engaging in adulterous behavior on university property, where other students may become concerned about the advantage Miss Hot Pants may gain from committing adultery with her professor. It may also have a negative effect on the university's access to Federal grants, since such monies may have already been used to finance this affair.

Given the policies against such wrongful conduct, I would like to know exactly what you and the university pland to do about my WH's and his student committing adultery.

Sincerely, Mrs. LLL"

Others may be able to write you a better and more effective letter, but something along those lines are what I would send.

As for your dogs, keep them otu of sight as much as possible, don't mention them, don't let your WH know that you want them so much, and keep your WH too busy trying to cover his butt to worry about them.

ARe the dogs registered? If so, in whose names are they registered? If they're in your name, they are legally yours.

Oh..and there used to be a poster here who exposed his Nurse WW's affair with a doctor to the hospital. The hospital did nothing about the affair, and the poster later won a settlement from the hospital. He was in Mississippi. He also had an alienation of affection suit against the doctor. The doctor is now sitting in prison after being arrested for soliciting the murder of the BS.

If you watched the Today Show a year or so ago, there was an affair couple (with an OC born during her marriage to the BS) on the show who were appealing the awarding of punitive damages in an alienation suit to the Supreme Court. The BS won the lawsuit in Mississippi, and the Supreme Court refused to hear it.

You might now want to waste your time suing Hot Pants, since she likely doesn't have the money. The OM in the Mississippi case was a millionaire.

However, I thought it was very interesting that the former MB poster won a settlement from the hospital where his FWW and the OM worked. Yes, she is now a FWW, even though he did divorce her and gain sole custody of their young child. Last I heard, she was completely remorseful and they were recovering very well!

The Road, I have to say that I am appalled by what you are writing to LLL. I can't figure out why you are so angry. I can't see one thing this woman has done which would trigger such criticism. It's like blaming a rape victim. I believe that we here at MB should support one another. Now if she were to allow her H to cake-eat indefinitely that would be another story and she would need to be confronted honestly. She is in a tough place and should be thinking of her financial life if she Ds her H. I'm sure you're a great person but I don't get it!

LLL, I totally understand wanting the dogs. I decided if my H wouldn't end his A I was getting our dog no matter what. Listen, if you decide to expose, do it and then go very dark. Let your H see what it's like to have total free access to the skank. Even if everyone knows, you didn't know. So let it be out in public. Affairs breed in the moldy darkness. Let him get a good taste of life with her and without you.

Finally, I said the Serenity Prayer about a 100 times a day for months after d-day. Control what you can and then let go of the rest. If your H comes around and you can repair the damage with him, fine. If not, you are better off without him. Just realize it takes a while for these WSs to get out of the A.

Sending a hug!

You keep rolling over on this age thing - 53 is not old. But it should give you pause about jumping into the dating pool.

Very few "attractive" men out there in that age group who are available. I'm talking "soul" here - heart, mind and body attractive.

Now - guys - don't get offended. I'm a woman; therefore I am paying attention to the behavior of men. I'm certain that EVERY case I make here about men can be said for women. So all risks being equal, Mr. or Ms. Perfect isn't out there!

The guy/gal you choose as a replacement for a wayward spouse, could be worse in terms of meeting emotional needs once you've taken your vows, and could also be unfaithful, carrying diseases, etc.

There are risks.

There's some credence to the idea of better the devil you know or no devil at all, than the devil you don't know.

I work in an office that is dominated by men. Since it's sales, a lot of these men are peacocks in terms of personality. You get to studying people and you'll find that the risks of cutting yourself loose in a hurry just because of your age are pretty meaningless.

I've hung out with guys most of my life in the work sense of the term. Farming - guys. Rock band - guys. Psychiatry and psychology - guys. Self-improvement and actualization profession? - guys. Sales - guys. From the time I was in the band, I've been paying attention to how guys treat women and how they talk about women. And pretty much concluded that they're all carrying some kind of issue that is going to sneak up and unpleasantly surprise a woman. Those flaws can't be hidden forever.

And since they don't come out in the courtship/dating routine, you take a very big risk ever getting involved with someone.

There's also something to be said for the fact that there will be pain in recovery or pain in divorce, equal but different. The struggle to heal and trust ANYONE will be a part of your personal journey.

Therefore, contemplating reconciliation with a wayward has some merits. You have all the time in the world to get a divorce, but only now to put things in motion for a possible recovery.

I would have your divorce attorney understand that your priority for now is a postnup agreement, awarding a division of property and the dogs according to your wishes. Your attorney can also sit him down with the PI findings on OW. Just so it isn't you telling him.

Then have a cooling off period where the locks on the house are changed, and he has your plan b letter and you go dark, working on healing your heart with or without him.

Before you go dark though, you must expose OW's lack of true academic credentials in your industry - just the facts. Do this while you are still married, because it bears the weight of truth, not vengeance.

Then Plan B. You may read up on some of the success stories here. Mimi comes to mind. She doesn't post anymore, but her story is worth it's weight in gold. She sold the house while in Plan B. She did everything to move on emotionally before actually severing the ties, and now enjoys the benefits of a fully recovered marriage.

SexyMamaBear and TST - wife and husband. Also fully recovered, and both post here. And I was one of the ones chanting "divorce his ***" because TST was to me, beyond recovery. Yet, they recovered, because TST didn't STAY wayward.

There are signals of true recovery from waywardness. Words don't cut it.

You have the mojo to thrive no matter what. But I'd recommend the most that you get on the phone with Steve Harley and work out a plan with him. He will give you the best possible chance at personal recovery whether or not your marriage recovers. Because you will have more skills to spot a fraud, and be the best you can be.

You may be set on divorcing but logically, there is NO reason to rush. If you are rushing, okay....your choice.

But

Don't try to outguess Hot Pants. Whatever you think she is up do...you may be a bit off of in reality. Who cares about her. She is a symptom not the actual problem.


Meanwhile, you can meet with lawyers and pick your fave and plan for legal separation or divorce down the road. You can divorce now but as you said, your emotions (ego/taker) is too involved and you are RE-ACTING and not responding to the situation.

What you are going through is what each of us went through at first. No fun. Not a bit. Uhuh...nope.

Hugs.

Plan A for now while getting your ducks in a row. Follow the plan and eventually, at the logical, proper time you can strike a legal separation or divorce.

What really IS the rush?! Rushing is not logical.

Imagine that you are living the same life you did a few days before discovering the affair and you were the same person, age, etc.

BTW...I want to think 53 isn't old. You are younger and prettier now than you ever will be again. Enjoy your age. Oooooh lala! You are hot stuff. You are. (It is all in the mind anyway). Take this time to be the healthiest, most attractive you that you can be. It is what you need for any future anyway (with or without your H).

And I have been looking at men in there 50s lately to see what is out there potentially in the future. Some are pretty darn cute and nice and decent seeming (lol.....I know the potential for secret lives of perversion.....yikes). I am expanding my own observations to ages 40-59 for reference.

LLL, I've been married 32 years and have been in recovery since 2003. I didn't find MB until after it was all over and FWH came home, but I have learned so much about personal and marriage recovery since finding it. I devoured it and it has paid off.

I hear you about the age thing, I'll be 53 this year and I shudder to think about starting over again. In my heart though, I know that I probably wouldn't do it again. If my DH ever cheated on me again, I would be done with marriage completely-- my personal choice.

The thing is, all the stuff that your WH was saying to you is TYPICAL-- right out of the wayward handbook. While they're wayward there is NO talking to your DH-- he's not there. When I talk to my DH now about the things he said back then he is incredulous, horrified and embarrassed.

Oh, by the way, my DH just graduated from Bible School and was recently ordained as a minister. He went from being a cheating, lying drunk to a wonderful man of God and awesome husband.

Personally, I think you should expose (to the university, to WH's and OW's colleagues, and to common friends). THEN go to a dark, dark Plan B, while you get your legal ducks in a row. Any communications should go through an IM of your choosing (the friend/former BS you talked about earlier might be a good one).

If you do file, as petitioner you control the flow of the case. You'll be able to stall it, fast-track it or dismiss it, depending on whether your WH gets his act together. I dismissed our divorce case three days before it was final.

Your WH really needs to experience life without you completely in it and force OW to meet ALL of his needs. You must be meeting some needs for him now or he wouldn't be balking about divorce.

I used to say recovery was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life-- until my DH was diagnosed with cancer. There was a recent period where I wasn't getting an EN meets because of his health-- talk about resentment trying to rear it's ugly head (lol!). It's not for everyone. It takes a very STRONG person to carry it off-- especially since the BS is the one who carries the load pretty much at the start. That doesn't last. Resentment is a BIGGIE in recovery, so are triggers.

Have you called the coaching center? That would be your BEST bet. But as far as your WH, he is typical, just like most of the ones we read about here.

Whether you decide to divorce or give your marriage a shot, most of us understand and will support you. Just don't make any RASH decisions based on what your WH says-- that would be a HUGE mistake at this point.

DITTO

I was 54 when I found the damning text messages that turned my life upside down. Funny but my age never entered my mind. DH and I were financially secure but far from wealthy. I had not even confronted my FWH at this point in your journey. I monitored his cell phone and his time and watched him and conversed with him as though I were watching a movie or it was happening to someone else.

I admit that in spite of my agony it was an interesting 10 days. I used them to gain the upper hand emotionally and to observe him with the full knowledge that he was committing adultery. I planned the confrontation and my plan A was so good that he never saw her and only talked to her once during that time. She continued to frantically text and try to arrange time with him.

I was fully prepared for him to stay or leave. I even had my budget worked out and knew what I would need from him to continue my lifestyle. I also knew that if he was totally repentant I was willing to allow him to stay and work on us. Looking back it was cold and calculating and it felt like the twilight zone. I am not cold or calculating but my whole being switched into survival mode.

Your actions and reactions have been remarkable, LLL. You will be fine whatever happens.

God's Blessings,

Say

LLL,
I am still following and concerned for you, and will venture some more observations/questions/advice.

You asked who you should expose to. I continue to think you should consider exposing OW to your husband with the information about her. Unless the info the PI got was not really all that bad or not substantiated. I think I'd ask PI for a written report on her. If it looks very thorough and professional and, most importantly, damaging, then I'd mail a copy of the report to him at work.

Did you ever contact the guy or wife whose marriage she broke up?
If you did so by email and got responses, you could send those along with what the PI found.

Has PI followed OW to see if she's being faithful to your H?
Ask your 'friend' what else she knows. (after what this woman had been through, I can't believe she didn't tell you)

The dogs are like children in this case. They are a responsibility that I doubt your H wants to have move in with him and Hot Pants. Even in his clueless state, he still has enough presence of mind not to dump any responsibilities in her lap or any LBs.

Having said all of the above, there is also another approach that sort of gets to the core. Just a thought. This is the opposite of what anyone 'in their right mind' would do, but if any of it rings true, you might consider doing something like this.
How about having a florist deliver roses to his office, a huge big bunch of them, accompanied by a gift wrapped copy of His Needs Her Needs, with a note saying something like. "I still want you in my life and my wish is to have us reunite as the partners, friends, and lovers I know we can be. I've read this book and been deeply affected by how right on it is in every way. It seems we are not as unique as we would like to believe we are. Please, all I ask is for you to read it. I want only good things for us. I want to be all I can be and I want the same for you. I think our best chance at reaching our greatest human potential lies in repairing our relationship. I have not always acted out of concern for you; I have not always been your friend. I take full responsibility for that, and I am willing to change. It is very hard for me to write this now when my heart is so broken, when my ego is telling me to take the easy way out, or, worse, to hurt you in some way. I assure you I will protect myself if I have to, but why should I have to? One of my happiest memories of you was ............. Can you reflect on that long enough to tolerate my plea, to take time to read the book? Your wife,

Important if you do write such a letter: it should not mention the OW or his A (as if she does not exist or is not the problem). You ask nothing of him but to reflect on your history together and to read some sound advice from people highly respected in their field.
Only if he demonstrates a desire to try, do you lay down the laws, going by the book. In this case His/Her Needs and Surviving an Affair.

Another option would be to hand deliver them yourself, say 'these are for you' and LEAVE, as in quietly excuse yourself. The most you could say would be something like. "I'm not good at talking now, so I want you to read this letter. Please respect that for now."
It would take guts, but you showing up with roses in your adulterous husband's office with calm dignity is a form of exposure and negates any trashing of you he has probably engaged in.

I know I'll be ridiculed for suggesting the flowers approach, but these are desperate times and any suggestion is an option. It is hard, even though we read about each other, to know each others' hearts and strengths. Looking back, I realize, though I didn't do roses, I did do a letter along those lines. My letter was much longer and of course tailored to our lives. My H had gotten so he wouldn't even look at me, let alone listen to me when we were supposedly having a conversation.

I think you are a remarkable woman. If nothing else, let him know what he will lose if he follows the path he is currently taking.

LLL,
I just reread saynomore's last post. It brought chills as I remembered functioning/disfunctioning in the exact same way. I felt like a puppet or robot doing things I never thought I'd be capable of doing.

LLL, how are you doing? I hope things haven't taken a bad turn... I'm worried, I can't say why.

LLL, your H agreed to save the M and go to conceling.
If I were you, I would schedule a meeting with Harley for couple conseling and give it a try. You decided for how long you want to try. You rightfully said you do not want to bend backwards and spend years to save the M, but give it a limit...2-3 months? After that if H has made no progress in ending the A then you can D.
I am telling you this because it my H were to say now he wanted to save the M I would jump at the oportunity...and this is his 2nd A. I want to save the M..., but I please ask you to give it a shot even if you are not on the same page as I am.
blessing

And yes, exposure is not going to guarantee saving your M.,,so talk to the Harleys before you expose. And yes, most marriages end after and A because R is not for everybody and the resentment, triggers, etc..can make your life h#ll and not everybody can and should put up with that.
But MB does work if BOTH people are willing to give the M a try. You will feel much better later on even if you D because you can tell yourself "I tried everything..even counseling with the Harleys..and it did not work...he just would not end the A"
blessing

I disagree woth Road. I think you are best seved thinking about the practicalites of divorce. Thinkong about your material possessions is a good idea. Many folks are so beaten down by the infidelity, they cave and give away the store.

The Road is prematire in the assessment that your actions will not cause the affair toend. No one can know this, at this point.
You acte with dignity and quite appropriately, IMO.
Stick to your guns re your requirements for considering continuing in the marriage. Unleash your lawyer.
No one I know would think poorly of you for doing post divorce exposure. You will not look at all vindictive for simply acting ethically and alerting the government re the misuse of grant funds.