My husband has been maintainting a friendship with another woman form our church for almost two years now. This began while I was pregnant with our first child. He still doesn't recognize it as having an affair since he says he did not do anything physical with her. He had in the past said he would stop communicating with her but that never happened. He now says that he wants to work on our marriage, I'm not sure if it's only because I started making plans to leave. He doesn't necessarily want to stop emailing/chatting with her but said that he is committed to not contacting her and wants to work on himself and the marriage. I *think* this time he may be serious but of course only time will tell.

Any advice on where we should start in working through this? I read through some of the articles on the site and am just overwhelmed by the amount of information available. Dr. Harley has written several books and I am unsure of which I should read and whether I should have him read it too or just wait and see if he's serious and offers to read it. I'm hurt and confused...

Hey RW. I'm very new here also, so I will let some of the more senior members respond with some articles on MB which apply to your situation. But, I just wanted to say that I know what you're going through, and you're in the right place. "Hurt and Confused" is a very familiar feeling to everyone here, so you're bound to get some good advice.

Stay Strong!

RW,

I'm so sorry to hear about this. Welcome to MB. The server for this board has been down all day, and has only been repaired this past hour. I think that not many people realise that, so answers will be slow at first.

Your H will not be able to go non-contact (NC) with this woman unless either you or her leave that church. I doubt whether she will be keen to leave, so it will have to be you.

Where to start? Well, the textbook that you can buy in larger bookshops tomorrow, or order online form here, is Dr Harley and Dr Chalmers' Surviving an Affair. Until you get that, though, there is a wealth of free materials on this site, which give essential information from that book.

Please tell us about this affair; its length, what they talk about, how you found out that they were talking, whether the other woman (OW) is married and whether her H knows about this.

The essential articles on this website cover:

1. How affairs begin. How Do Affairs Begin?

2. How affairs should end, and that is with complete non-contact with the OP for life. Dr Harley is adamant that you cannot accomplish NC if H is able to have contact with OW. The End

3. Restoring the relationship, or building a better one than before, once NC has been established: Restoring the Marital Relationship

4. Dealing with the unhappiness that results from an affair: Overcoming Resentment

Also essential is Marital Recover After an Affair.

There are also lots of Q&A letters that are answered here.

Hang in there.

Thanks for the replies. The OW is unmarried although she is now seeing someone. At the time this began she was single and did not have a BF.I knew who her BF was I would tell him what he's getting himself into. I'm not sure if the BF knows about her relationship with my H but I assume he doesn't. one of the things H has told me they talk about is her relationship with her new BF.

I found out that they were talking in May 2008, I believe it was just a month or so after it began. I found out that they were messaging on MySpace at the time, I had his password and checked it because I just felt like something was off. I watched the messages for a while (maybe 2 weeks) and once I saw flirting going on I said something to H about it. He got upset that I was checking his account though he had given me the password. He changed the password and created a "secret" email account. They used that account and they would chat back and forth on that all day long while he was at work or while he was home and I was asleep, I was just getting into my 2nd trimester of pregnancy so I almost always went to sleep very early.

I installed a keylogger on the computer once I saw the secret account in this history. At that point I went to talk to a Pastor at church and let them know what was going on. H got very upset with me and didn't talk with me much. He said he would stop talking to her and now I have recently found out that this only lasted a week. We had our son in September 2008 and at that point I had no evidence that he was talking to her. Now I know that he was but he would only talk with her at church since they worked in the same ministry together and while he was at work. I found out in Oct. 2009 that he was still talking to her since he emailed her from our home computer and on the same day I found out that he texted her 3 times. The email wasn't flirty but he was not supposed to have contact. He lied and said that this was the only time he ever emailed or contacted her and that it was about church and etc. Fast forward to last Tuesday I checked phone records (since I still don't trust him. He apparently had a 30 min. phone conversation with her the day before we went out of town together back in December. At that point is when I found out that he again contacted her on 12/23/09 and 12/31/09 both of which were 5 minutes or less. He has never described in detail what they talk about (this is something I still want to know), he says that they talk about what friends talk about. He said that he likes to just laugh and talk about general things with her.

After last Tuesday he has suddenly decided that he will be honest with me and wants to work on things. I still believe that he is ommitting facts as in not giving detail about what they talk about and etc. He said that he never stopped communicating with her longer than a couple weeks. Both she and he initiate contact and it's over email at work a few times through out the week. He says the only phone conversations were those that I saw on the cell phone bill but, I don't believe that. He said that she has moved to a town 3 hours away to start a new job, she moved there in November 2009. So she's not a member at our church anymore though I believe she was there visiting this weekend. I have wanted to change churches for a while b/c the whole place brings bad memories for me.

I hope I answered everything and will read the articles. I'm sort of hopeless about whether he will really change this time.

I can see that it will be easy for them to maintain contact via the internet and they might well do so, since this is how they spend a lot of their time.

There is another article that you should read urgently, perhaps after reading "How affairs should end". It is about Plans A and B. You should also read Dr Harley's advice on internet affairs. I know this did not start as one, but it has turned into one since OW moved away.

Dr Harley's advice for what to do when an affair does not end on D Day is to first go to Plan A. You should be in this plan for about a month. It involves your trying to end the affair while simultaneously meeting those emotional needs that your H will let you meet.

However, if you have any reason to suspect that this affair has been physical, you must not have sex with him until you are both tested for STDs and are clear.

Plan A is a means of showing the H that you are able and willing to meet the needs he has been letting OW meet. You must not keep it up for long, though, because it takes a toll on your health (because you know the affair is still going on, and that hurts, as you know) and it supports H in his cake-eating affair. He gets the best of both worlds while you are in Plan A, and he gets to like it.

If he does not end his affair after a month you must go to Plan B, which involves separating from H and not having any direct contact with him. You must arrange for an intermediary to pass essential messages between you, and arrange a means of handing over the children for visits that does not involved your seeing or speaking to H. You must sort out your income, perhaps with a legal separation agreement, for this to work, so you must prepare for Plan B. You do not do it by throwing H out one day.

This article explains the rationale behind the two plans. You should keep posting here for more details on how to put them into practice.

It's late here in London and I'm going to bed now, but keep posting and reading, and others will give you more help.

Yep. He is not to be trusted at this point. You WILL have to change churches.

Even if she moved away? I've felt like we should change churches for a while now and even visited one a few months back when I found out he was still talking to her. All of our/my friends and support are there (though they do not know what is going on).

This began on the internet and this is still how they communicate. I will read the articles

Another question when he started acting willing to work on things I told him about this site (on the same day I found it). Should I encourage him to come here?

I missed that she moved. Then you will have to focus on monitoring his computer and phone use. He will have to agree to total transparency. I wouldn't let him know you're posting just yet. He may be going underground and just getting sneakier at contacting her (extra phone, etc.), and coming here will tell him how you are monitoring him.

I would say that you should see if he will send a NC letter. Dr Harley gives a template for this in one of the articles. If he seems willing to end the affair and send the letter, he might benefit from coming here. He has to do his part in recovery too, and this is the best place to learn how.

If, however, you have any suspicion that he is feeding his addiction with contact, do not tell him about these forums. You will get advice on how to spy on him here, and you do not want him to read that. Do not talk about MB any more yet, in case he finds these forums on his own.

Do not let him send a NC letter without talking about it here first. You must see and approve the letter and, although it is in his name, YOU must send it so that you know it has been sent, unaltered.

Active waywards are horrible, devious, manipulative, dishonest people who do shocking things to their spouses and children. You must not give him the benefit of any doubt, or any trust, until you see that this affair has ended with complete NC.

If she has moved away, you don't have to change churches unless you want to, which it seems you do. This is not urgent, however.

I've thought that about getting sneakier since this is what he did after I first confronted him about his affair with her. He now emails at work only. How will I ever know the truth about whether he actually stopped communicating with her? BTW he said that starting today he will not contact her, he said he would send her an email telling her not to contact him either. Thing is he told me that he didn't have time today to send her the email. This makes me think he's nto serious. I want to confront him about it but, I will wait on it until after I've done my homework I guess.

When we talk this evening or tomorrow I will ask to see the NC letter. I'm trying to figure out how I will be able to ensure that they have not had contact. I suspect that if he isn't serious about the NC then he will find a way to do it and make it hard for me to find out.

Does his family know? If I were you I would take control and put an end to this behavior. The only reason he is talking about working on your marriage is because OW has moved on with her new BF. However, your WH has POOR boundaries and will start something up again with another woman if these boundary issues are not addressed. It's better to address these issues NOW that he currently doesn't have any other available "options." Otherwise you are going to go through this all throughout your marriage.

You give him a list of conditions that you need in order to continue with this marriage. These include complete transparency, marriage counseling with the therapist of your choice, openness and honesty, revealing everything about his relationship w/ OW, no opposite sex friendships or alone time, etc. If he does not agree to those conditions, you take steps to move forward with at least legal separation. He'll come running back with his tail wagging between his legs.

Redswife,

Briefly put, in Oct.2008, I let myself go into an emotional affair with an acquaintance from our church (one of the women I sang with on our worship team). I thought I could keep things under control. I was very wrong. It became physical in short order, despite a half-hearted effort I made to break it off. It all ended in more heartbreak than I ever wish to be any part of ever again, and almost cost me everything that matters to me.

It required exposure to end my affair (in my case, my other woman's husband found her out, so that forced my hand in telling my wife myself, and forced me to stop "cake-eating" and to make a choice to try & save my marriage).

And it required our leaving that church, in order to preserve a strict practice of "no contact" between my family & the other woman's family.

There's much more I can share, but I have to leave for work now. Let me know if you want to know more. I suggest you read up, on this site, re: 2 principles I've mentioned: (1) exposure, and (2) no contact. They were crucial to saving my marriage. My wife & I were also blessed to find a very good marriage counselor who stressed these principles.

I wondered if the reason he seems so willing to stop communicating with her is b/c of her moving on with her new BF or whether it was because I started making plans to leave.

As far as whether his family knows, I assume that his brother knows b/c they confide in each other from time to time. I'm not sure if any more of his family knows. Is exposure the best way to go even when previously I did this in exposing the EA to the Pastor at church and it didn't stop the behavior? I admit that I am kind of embarrassed about the situation b/c it makes me look like I can't keep my husband at home.

I agree that if we do not address the boundary issue that this will reoccur again. I even said that to him but he says that he's not going to make the same mistake again.

GloveOil, I would like to know more. I'm interested to find out the FWH perspective on things.

I'm trying not to get hopeful because I am afraid to have to endure this pain again. He says that he did not communicate with her yesterday and that he will not do so. No letter as of yet, even after he sends the letter I'm not really sure how I would figure out if he's emailing with her since he does this at work.

You get to approve the NC letter, AND you get access to his email account. All employees can access their email from home computer.

I'm not sure if he knows how to access his work email from home but, I will see if he can find out how to do so. Are there any examples of NC letters here?

No, not all. Some secure jobs do not allow this.

If H can access his work email from, home and gives you access, then he will stop sending and receiving affair messages to it. He will set up a separate web-based email account that you know nothing about. If he accesses THAT from home then a keylogger will detect it, but if he is smart and only communicates on the secret account from outside the home, you are lost.

A common trick is for waywards to buy a pre-paid mobile phone. If he keeps it in the house or car you could find it. He will need to charge it, so look for a charger. If he keeps it at work, though, you won't know about it.

Thanks for the info SugarCane. Before all of this started I used to visit him a lot at work. He started needing space and no longer wanted me to come to his office for lunch. In hindsight I suspect this is because he wanted to spend his lunch period talking with her. With my job it will be difficult but I may start trying to go to his office more again.

Another question I just thought of, is seems that since yesterday most of our conversation has been about our marriage and whether he is seriously ready to commit to working on things and stopping contact with her. I have so many questions for him and etc. but when is it too much? I don't want to seem like a nag... I can't believe I just said that b/c HE has been having an EA and I'm worried about nagging him! uuggh I need help

What are you doing to Plan A him? Remember, you have to show him that you are what he wants.

I will admit that I am still working on learning to Plan A him hard core. I've called to offer to bring him food since we woke up late n couldn't make lunch. I also suggested we go to the gym together. Or the rest of today I will focus on him and trying to be his friend. It's hard since we haven't has light fin conversations in a while. I don't know how to start :-( that's the thing he said he most liked about her. Any suggestions r welcomed. Working on exposure too. He seemed so hung ho the other day when he wrote me a letter. Now that I have shown interest in him and fixing thing he seems to benpulling away. He's also fragging his feet on the NC letter. He says he just wants to write a one loner and be done with it yet he hasn't done that. I've been looking but haven't found any examples of what a NC letter should look like.

RW,

First and foremost, sorry that you are here. You are in the right place if you want to save your M. So many amazing people on this site.

Second, are you 100% sure that hasn't gone PA? It's hard for me to believe that WH has been having an EA for well over a year and it has never gone physical. You should really think long and hard about that. Unfortunately, you may need to poly your WH to get the truth. You must demand that he gives you the full story no matter how painful it is if you ever want to have a shot at true recovery.

I also completely agree that your WH has poor boundaries and if you do not address this you will be in for more of the same in the future with this OW or a new OW.

You must expose this affair to WH's family, your family, friends and anybody that could be a positive influence on your WH to see that what he has done is horribly wrong. You should also expose the affair to OW's boyfriend. He has a right to know what type of woman he is getting involved with. If he stays with her he will become an ally to you in insuring that there is NC between WH and OW.

Keep reading, posting and thinking!!!

Mindshare

Red,

I'm a newbie here too under pretty much the same circumstances:H having EA on handheld smartphone and the OW works at the same job as my H. I'm waiting for my session with Steve Harley as I type this due to the fact that I had to implement PlanB and separation due to his refusal to stop contact with OW. This happened on Sunday night and need to discuss the details surrounding that today with Steve Harley.

Here is the NC letter your H be writing:

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.


That's basically it, my H is on a friend's couch and probably has increased contact with oW as a result of my enforcement of separation (deeper issues here, internal ones within himself, not only weak boundaries).

Unfortunately I was so frazzled when I started posting that I called it "Third time a charm" so look for my thread if you're interested.

Please know that you absolutely cannot trust him right now, he is NOT who you married, you'll see him 'draw back' from your affections and care as a result of attention that he prefers to get from his EA. He likes getting it there, it lives up to a fantasy in a fantasy world ungrounded in reality and it FEELS GOOD, and will prefer it, to you being in front of him. Be strong during your PlanA, you won't regret it, but since your H is being so deceptive at this point, realize you may need PlanB, and begin to learn about it here. trust me, I never thought I'd planB my H.... Ever since my planB a calm has washed over me, protecting my residual love for my H.

I'll check with you later tonight.

Plexle

Light conversation would be talking about the elections, or Haiti, or volunteering, work, or some hobby you enjoy together. Reading the paper is a great way to find light conversation starters. "Look, honey, it says that XYZ store is going out of business. Maybe we could get that chair you always wanted, while it's on sale."

That was encouraging, thanks.

Red, so sorry that you are here, but I hope we all can help you survive this ordeal and come out with an intact marriage. I am GloveOil's wife and have been posting here only since the fall.

Your WH sounds like he is in withdrawal. He vacillates between wanting to work on your marriage and pulling away. He says he will write the NC letter but never seems to. If you can ascertain that his EA is completely over, then you need to get that NC letter sent pronto. He is probably cake-eating with you both and that needs to stop.

It's good that she has moved away, but as you have seen, contact is still very much possible and you can only control so much. That is why exposure is important. As you have seen, your pastor is not someone who will help make your WH accountable during this A. Determine who will be a good accountability partner for your WH and expose to them. We were fortunate that we had great couples as friends who we exposed to together and then asked for ongoing support. The husbands would meet with my DH regularly, call him and help him through his foggy thinking. The wives were my strength and sounding boards.

GO tried to break off the A twice without success, because he tried to do it and maintain secrecy about it. When the the OWH hired a PI and collected evidence of the infidelity, it backed GO into a corner of being exposed. Only then could he force himself to come clean to me. It's humiliating and devastating to openly reveal how low you have sunk from the person you thought you were. Exposure makes that happen.

GO also tried to spoon feed me the truth at the beginning. I think he thought he was protecting me, but it really just protects the WS. After numerous recountings of the events during exposure to friends and our MC, I feel like I have the whole story.

As for your church, I can only suggest you find a new one. We left immediately because there was still the possibility of seeing the OW or her H there. You don't have that problem, but it does trigger unpleasant thoughts for you that may interfere with your recovery.

It sounds like you are plan A'ing well. Read the book, Surviving an Affair, as previously suggested. GO and I credit it with saving our marriage. Make an effort to talk to your husband about everything, but limit A talk to brief encounters. Get counseling, but make sure the counselor is pro-MB. There are alot who will tell you to sweep it under the rug. That is no way to heal. Visit your husband at work regularly. Email him daily; call him often. Send him just because e-cards about how much you love him. Remind him why he chose you in the first place. Keep posting. I look forward to hearing how it goes.

Thank you all so much for your support during this. I talked to a family member of his and she basically blew it off and said she would get back to me. That discouraged me a bit in terms of exposure. I'm not sure who would be the person or persons that would be effective. I'm embarassed that this is going on in my marriage.

RW,

Go read Cherrychip's thread and in particular read the post on Fear that Pepperband posted. You really need to read that.

Mindshare

Red, YOU DID NOTHING TO BE EMBARASSED ABOUT!

Don't let fear win! Take control now and follow the advice here. It will clear things up for you.

I did read the post about fear. I am ready to reclaim my marriage, this has gone on long enough. My conflict comes from the fact that he was just acting like he was gung ho about things. So that's why I was discouraged about exposure. I talked to a female family member of his and she just said that she had to process the information and get back to me. I thought that she would be a good ally in getting the behavior to stop. I couldn't tell from her response how she felt about it. I would have figure she would have been disappointed and wanted to confront H about the situation. So now I'm lost on while I am providing a good home for him should I find more ppl to expose to? Sorry if I sound like an air head...I feel like I can't even think in a rational way.

Also should I try and find out who OW BF is so that I can expose to him?

Among problems you may run up against, one is that lots of people (most people, I think) just don't regard an emotional affair with the same seriousness as a physical affair. They're wrong to think this way, but that's beside the point. The ones who understand might be allies for you in exposure; the ones who don't understand, well, let them know where you stand, but don't waste too much time with them.

The important thing is that both you & especially your husband need to accept that an EA is just as bad & serious as a PA. EAs are what makes PAs possible, for guys & women who never would've considered just getting into a PA. I'm not sure if your H's A was physical or not, and I'm not sure you're sure, either. If your H didn't get into a PA, then he might not be ready to admit that what he's been involved in qualifies as "an affair." That hurdle will have to be overcome before you can recover your marriage.

From your description of their recent contacts (surreptitious phone calls, etc.), I can't know of course, but it sounds possible they may still be in contact & taking things "underground." From your account, your H still doesn't seem to get the following key point: If a relationship has to be a secret, then one shouldn't be in it.

This being the case, please don't be afraid to put your foot down hard. Back before my EA went all the way physical, my wife & I had a discussion one night, and she confided that she had apprehensions about me spending time alone with my OW to practice songs. I lied to her & told her that nothing untoward was going on. And I told her that I wouldn't spend time alone w/OW anyway if it made her uncomfortable (which I meant when I said it, but which I didn't stick to.) Anyway, my wife believed me, because she wanted to believe me, because I'd always been a good man, through my entire life, up to autumn 2008. Looking back, even though the blame for my getting into an affair is entirely mine, TWC and I both wish that she'd put her foot down harder on that occasion; we wonder whether it could've helped stop things before I went all the way to the bottom. Something you'll often hear around this site, and I believe it's true: Don't be afraid of making him angry. Your marriage can survive his anger, but it can't survive ongoing dishonesty.

I can only say from reading here (and not from my own experience) that you should expose to the BF. He has a right to know what's going on. He may be a good source of NC info as well. As for other people to expose to, consider his brother (didn't you say he confided in him from time to time); or someone in your families that has a good marriage and will be bold with your husband. A caveat is that some people don't know what to do with information like this about a loved one, and don't have the kind of relationship with a wayward that they would boldly confront them about their behavior.

I am praying for you and your husband.

he might not be ready to admit that what he's been involved in qualifies as "an affair."

Yes he has said recently that he does not consider it as an affair. I'm not sure how getting him to realize it is will happen.

From your description of their recent contacts (surreptitious phone calls, etc.), I can't know of course, but it sounds possible they may still be in contact & taking things "underground."

I think this is what's going on, or at least he is trying to keep his options open. They've already been underground for the past year I would hope that they would both be tired of it.

He has said that they have not gotten physical but there's no way for me to know the truth. Is there any hope that one day I will know the whole truth?

TWC as far as exposing to the BF. In order to find out who he is, I will have to expose to a friend of ours...I'm not sure how that will go but I'm going to muster up the strength to get the job done. His brother may not be as bold with him as needed. I will explore the idea though.

Thanks for your prayers. I really want my marriage to work out, and don't want to have to take our child away from his father.

You do NOT own this RW. Your WH does. These are possible outcomes of his adultery. Do not take ownership of it!

I will reiterate this again. I find it nearly impossible to believe that it has been only an EA that has been going on for over a year. It is possible to get the whole truth someday but it might require a polygraph. A number of BS's here have required it as a condition of recovery and have gotten the truth.

Mindshare

Anyone whose respect he wants.

Mother, father, brother, sister, and his children, especially. Then...aunts or uncles, cousins, best friends, pastor, even neighbors if they're close.

You don't seem to believe that exposure works. If you'd read other threads here, you'd see it has a POWERFUL effect on waywards because they convince themselves that what they're doing is ok. They justify. But when a family member calls them and says "Do I have this straight? You're cheating on your wife and running the risk of her taking your kids away just so you can have a quickie on the side? I am ASHAMED of you" - well, then, suddenly all those justifications look mighty weak indeed.

Yes! Today!

Mindshare I find it hard to believe that the EA has not gone to a PA either. Mind you he does not believe that this is catergorized as an affair.

I'm having trouble thiking of who's opinion he respects. I called a parent earlier today and the response was that they will get back with me later. That left me confused. I do believe that it works though.

He just sent me a draft of a NC he will send to OW. I don't like the way it sounded.

It was along the lines of I want to let you know that I am going to disconinue communication. I have carried on a friendship that my wife does not approve of. To avoid further conflicts b/t she and I and to rebuild our marriage this is a choice for our future. I can't change the past but I can start making better decisions.

To me that is WEAK and could be read as he is being forced to compose the letter. I'm so mad that he was the one who was so gung ho about rebuilding and wrote me such a passionate letter and his NC is so weak. I'm not sure how to tell him I don't like it without getting upset and yelling. I'm trying to avoid love busters. Any help on this?

I'm sitting here trying to think of someone who I can expose to that will be bold with H and honestly it's sad that there's not many that I can think of. There's one couple that's friends of ours that I know will but, I'm not sure if he respects their opinion of him. I'm going to suggest stronger language in his email to her.

The key respect in which this letter (as you've summarized it) falls short is that it fails to make clear that the discontinuance of communication is permanent, and that he is requesting that she never again attempt to make contact with him. If I were you, I would thank him for drafting this letter for the sake of the 2 of you, then edit it accordingly as per above, calmy/politely explain the reasoning (above), and ask him to sign it. (If he protests, that'll show you where his heart is.) Once it's signed, then YOU get the address from him, verify it, then YOU send it to her, via registered mail. That way you'll have assurance that it's been sent & received.

It'd be nice & positive if he felt or manifested deep remorse right now, but I don't think that it's so important whether he feels he's being forced to send this letter. He's likely unable to feel & think rationally or honorably right now. Keep in mind that he's certainly in 1st-stage withdrawal. The brain-chemistry impact of such infaturation is the same as addition to crack cocaine. (Read on this site what Harley has to say re: affairs & addiction & withdrawal.) Even if he knows intellectually that going back to his marriage is the right thing to do, emotionally part of him wants to cling to the hope of resuming contact w/ this person who's been filling his emotional needs -- perhaps rationalizing it as "going back to a friendship-only relationship" with her -- which you cannot & must not accept.

Rather, what's important is not how he feels right now, but that the letter be correctly-worded & sent, and that extraordinary precautions are put in place to ensure, to the extent possible, that he abides by this no-contact policy. IF he does this, then he can gradually withdraw from this infatuation/addiction, and there'll be a better chance that his feelings & thinking will change commensurately.

Tell him to use the template that Plexle gave you,

"OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship."

The letter needs to be written by him, but approved by you. It needs to be focused on ending the affair, not protecting the OW's feelings. It needs to protect you by not even considering the OW's feelings in the matter. The focus needs to be on rebuilding your relationship. And it needs to sound like he means every word, so there is no doubt in the OW's mind. Then YOU send it to her.

I'm doubtful that he will in fact stick to NC at this point. I may need to look into finding a polygraph person around where we live and have him tested in X number of days to find out if he's talking to her? That may get expensive though.

The note will be sent by email, he is supposed to copy me when I could also follow it up by sending it to her place of employment since I know where she works. His response to my calmly explaining to him the above about the note is that she will assume she is not to contact him either. I forgot the part about the permanence.

We've been through this process before. Him telling her that they are not to speak. Then she broke that when she sent him a chain email...her message to me was that she "didn't think it was a big deal and that she will not talk to either one of us again." I'm so mad thinking about this I have to stop my self from sending her a nasty email. I'm trying to keep my cool right now since I am in plan A.

Any assumption on your part re: OW's good conduct is not worth the paper it's written on.

His NC letter should also communicate to her that he wishes that she never contact him again (in addition to saying that he's ceasing contact w/ her permanently). Now, he may not feel like saying this, and it won't guarantee that she won't try to reestablish contact, but failure to make this point explicit might mean that the chances will be higher that she'll contact him; and that's not what he'll need if he's making even a halfway-sincere effort to get through withdrawal and fix & improve his relationship with you.

Your rule re: NC has to be, he does this YOUR way, not you-do-it-his. Hang tough. Guys worth their salt will respect you for that, eventually.

Thanks GO

Just my opinion, but send a proper letter. Email has a tendency to diminish the message. If you take the time and effort to write/type a letter and address an envelope (not to mention perhaps mailing it Receipt Required), there is a much greater impact.

Again, just my opinion.

Good point Fred, should we do both?

Not in my opinion.

Sit down and type up a very well-formatted, business-looking letter (templates are available online if you want examples). Same with the envelope.

Take it to the post office and have it sent by the counter staff. Make it registered or certified.

You want the recipient (OW) to know this is a SERIOUS LETTER. Not a throw-away email.

Good point

***edit***

Hi DW,

Some one posted a thread with the acronyms on it. It was under notable posts I believe. Can start a thread with your own question at any time. It's good to be detailed in our thread so the vets here can offer their opinion.

RW,

I agree that you should use Plexle's template for the NC letter. And I completely agree with GO that it should clearly state that she is NEVER to contact him again.

I also agree with Fred that a snail mail letter is better. He should sign and it and you should send it so you know that it acutally gets into the mail. Don't trust him to do it.

Hang in there RW. This stuff is tough but you can survive. Somehow you are going to have to get to the truth about what has really transpired between them (PA or not) or your M will never fully recover.

Your WH is very dangerous to you until he realizes and admits that what he has been doing is very..very wrong. I would strongy encourage you to get the book Surviving an Affair (SAA around here) and both of you should read it.

Establshing NC is just the first step in a long process to recover. It's the first and very important step but it's just a step. There is much to follow-up with after that. You must affair proof your M and your WH must realign his boundaries with women.

Mindshare

Thanks mindshare. I'm going to pick up the book hopefully tomorrow after work. They dont have that one at our library. I've stepped it up with plan A. Is plan A supposed to feel like a honeymoon stage? Today something I said made him laugh, I could tell it wasn't forced. This was the first time in a while that has happened and it actually made ME feel good.

I tried to find out the name of OW's BF but so far the ppl I know that know her aren't that close to her. I have a FB friend looking out for me. Tonight has gone better than the past few so I'm thankful to have gotten the advice and am looking forward to getting the book.

I think H didn't expect me to be as pleasant as I have been. The firends and family that I have exposed to seem to want to stay out of it and mind heir own business. Am I doing it wrong?

No. You can't expect them to do anything. Most times, just your H or OW KNOWING that they all know can be enough to make them rethink the affair. Remember, the goal is for your H to think 'ya know, this affair stuff is just too hard and the benefits too small.'

And don't forget he also has to think 'wow, my wife really is all that. What was I thinking?' Because it has to be his idea to come back to you. You have to be the better option.

I can't remembered if I mentioned it but I tried to get her BF's name through a FB friend but came up empty.

Yea, I've been working Plan A as much as I can. I even went back to putting effort in how I look. I had started working out last summer so that I can get down to at least the weight I was when we first married.

I will be sending the NC letter to her place of employment tomorrow.

So now he doesn't want to use the wording I suggested for the NC letter. This has made me fuming mad...H has spent the past 2 years chatting on our marriage while doing his thing with this woman. And doesn't have the balls to say that he's making this decision out of love for his wife and family?! I'm so mad I just want to give up and move on! I know that's the anger talking but I'm just tired of fighting and want to move towards having a happy life.

What do I do if H and I can't agree on the wording and he doesn't want to send the letter?

What is the wording he is objecting to? Specifically?

The NC letter should be direct, not vitriolic or slippery. It should simply state that the affair was wrong, hurtful to the marriage and that the wish to recover the marriage requires no further contact. It should "ask" that the no contact requirement be respected.

If he's not willing to say that what he did was wrong, I would seriously doubt his sincerity in staying with you. You need more discussion about this. Can you afford a call to the Harleys?

I suggested pratically the exact wording that was suggested in this thread.
OW,
I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and child; I have come to realize that I must never communicate with or see you again. Maintaining my relationship with you was a selfish choice I made that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care about my family and I would not want to do anything further to risk our future. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my decision

He wants to remove things and in his words make it simple.

OW,
I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and child; I am going to end communication with you. Maintaining a relationship with you was a selfish choice I made that BS did not deserve. I will not make any further contact with you and you not make any contact with me.

He also doesn't want to send it in the mail he wants it to be an email.

I'm not sure if we can exactly afford the call. I'm not sure what they could do to help? Give me a plan? Would they talk to him? I'm clueless of what would happen so I guess I don't see the value. What do they usually do?

I can't believe I am crying over this. I told him that in order for us to work on rebuilding he has to agree to all of the conditions that were set when we talked yesterday. Which includes sending the NC letter.

He doesn't want the finality/permanence imposed by the original. That's what comes across to me.

Email is a fudge. It might get "lost in the ether" and does not have the impact of the printed word.

He's not totally committed to recovery, yet.

You're right. So what do I do? If I call the Harley's are they going to speak to only me or will they speak to both of us. I don't know where to go from here.

You can afford it. It costs a tiny fraction of what divorce lawyers may cost both of you.

This was my reply to his email that he's willing to meet all conditions to rebuilding except the NC letter.

I'm so glad that you are ONLY willing to meet YOUR conditions. The reality of our situation is that a 3rd person was brought into our marriage, the letter sent to her would signify that you are putting a permanent END to your affair with her (let's call it like it is). IF you are not willing to do this then I will figure out what we will do while I wait on you to want that relationship DEAD.

I was trying to avoid love busters but, I'm not sure how well I did. I was trying not to let my anger show much

This is true. Will we both have to be available for the call? I will go look into it. I'm so upset that I can't stop crying.

He's now saying that I am holding him back from making the commitment b/c I don't want to compromise with him. He doesn't want to send the letter

RW,

I completely agree that you should schedule a call with Steve Harley. He will need to speak to each of you individually. If you schedule a 1 hour call he will spend half with you and half with your WH. You need some outside assistance to get your WH to see that what he was doing is considered an EA. He doesn't get it yet. Not even close. His version of the NC letter was not sufficient and sending it email over regular mail is ridiculous. He is not committed to your M and until he commits and acknowleges his wrong doings you are spinning your wheels. Steve Harley can help him understand.

Mindshare

...as if it's not his lousy conduct that's the problem holding you back, it's your refusal to compromise. Around here, they call that twisted logic "gaslighting"

My gut reaction would be to reply that he compromised your marriage by interjecting another woman. That's the "compromise" that matters. But seeing how that might be received, let's set that aside for a minute.

The NC letter will have to be sent, but it may not be your best "hill to die on" today, Jan.21. (No contact is a hill that you will have to surmount soon, though.)

For today, another tack you could take might be to ask him if he will commit to a joint phone counseling session with the Harleys.

His willingness to engage in counseling to work on your marriage may be a crucial signal. In my case, on the same day I confessed my affair to my wife, she said she wanted us to go to counseling together. I said that I would. If I had refused, she might very well have kicked me out then & there; or at least, I can't imagine how our recovery would've worked if I'd refused.

Once he's in counseling with someone who can moderate your conversations & who is committed to saving marriages, then he may come to see the light re: the importance of no-contact, or at least be willing to follow the recommended approaches while he comes around to seeing the light. If he won't commit to a joint appointment, then you'll have to hear from the real vets around here, because that'll be a tougher case.

My wife & I never had counseling with the Harleys; we didn't really know about them until after we'd been assigned to work through the book "Surviving An Affair" by our marriage counselor. From what I recall reading on this site, they charge in the neighborhood of $200-$250 a session.

I pray that your husband is open to this suggestion.

Oh, great. He's turning it back on you. He's nowhere near recovery at this point. He's stonewalling.

My gut reaction would be to reply that he compromised your marriage by interjecting another woman.

I actually said this to him.

He has now agreed to the letter as I originally suggested and is trying to get me to agree to having him send he an email.

I made the appointment with Steve, it can only help.

Agree with GO. Back off on the NC for today. Supposedly, he is in NC anyway right now so the letter itself can wait a few days if needed. It's important to do it correctly and to both be in agreement of the wording and the method of communication.

When is your appointment with Steve? So glad to hear you got it scheduled. From everything that I have heard and read, Steve is extraordinarily adept at getting through to waywards. You can revisit the NC letter during your call with Steve.

Mindshare

Our appointment is at the begining of next week. He says that he will attend the call. He has now agreed to the NC letter but should I wait until we speak with Steve before sending it?

Thaks for all your help. I really appreciate having people in my corner

Email addresses can be faked.

What GO was saying is to reply to WH stating that he compromised our marriage by adding OW.

He's now accusing me of wanting to send the NC letter to be sptieful towards OW. I told him to stop protecting her. She's not the pure princess he thinks she is.

I'm two seconds from posting this on my FB status page:

Attn members of (Insert church) WH and OW have been having an emotional affair for two years. Yes an affair full of lying and deciet. Their term for this is "undercover friends" He won't admit it but I will. If you know someone who does polygraph let me know so I can make sure that's all there is to the story.

Or something like that. I feel like I'd be doing it out of anger though and some of my cousins that live states away would see it too.

I guess the FB status msg is a no..lol

The purpose of the NO CONTACT letter is not to be spiteful. It is the first step REQUIRED in recovering your marriage. There is no need to be protective of the OW. She and your WH did nothing to protect your marriage. The letter is as cold and devoid of passion as a sniper's task: it's something that has to be done.

Your husband is bargaining. He has nothing to bargain for, or with.

RedsWife, I know you want recovery to begin as soon as possible, and we all support that. But it's never that easy. Your husband is an addict and he's being forced to look withdrawal straight in the face.

His APPROVAL on the letter is not required, although that would be a plus. His ACCEPTANCE of it is. The letter should be devoid of emotion (except for any expression of the desire to recover the marriage) and should simply state the intent to sever contact PERMANENTLY. There is no wiggle room on this.

I'd hold off on the FB explosion, but keep it in your back pocket. It may be a tool you'll need to use.

Thanks Fred. I hadn't thought about the fact that I may need to use FB status as a tool. Good thinking.

Should I be trying to find out how I can be sure he isn't talking to her on his work email?

Yes. You should be snooping every which way possible. Just don't let on that you're doing it.

Common snooping tools are computer keyloggers, GPS tracking systems, voice-activated recorders (VAR) and even private investigators (P.I.).

It's critically important that you have irrefutable PROOF. Speculation or incomplete data will only serve to drive waywards deeper into secrecy.

RW,

Since you have an appointment with Steve for early next week I would hold off on doing anything until then. The FB exposure can be an awesome tool so keep it in your tool bag for now. Steve will help you develop a plan for how to recover your M. In the meantime, I would strongly recommend that you Plan A the heck out of WH and do not discuss the affair or OW at all. Keep conversations light and fun. Try to enjoy each others company. Go out on a date night. Save all affair/relationship talk for the call next week.

All of that said, keep up your snooping for sure and don't let WH know that you are snooping.

Mindshare

I may have a way to find get the information I need but it depends on another person. I've asekd if they will help me collect information. Hopefully they say yes.

Mindshare I will take your advice and hold off on the relationship talk for the call next week. Hopefully he doesn't bring it up, I'm sure he probaly won't.

Right now I'm feeling pretty hopeless about the situation. I'm not sure if I can forgive someone who has hurt me repeatedly like this. He has never given me a reason for why he got up each morning and chose to stomp all over my heart. I don't understand why he valued his relationship with her kore than our marriage.

I didn't do well with plan a tonight. I had an outburst. I feel bad that I screwed up. I'll just have to start again tomorrow I guess.

Give yourself a break. Plan A is tough. Try not to dwell on what he has done in the past (not forgetting it as some counselors would suggest, but not dwelling on it). Each morning brings a new opportunity to get it right.

It might help you to realize that he didn't wake up every morning saying I am going to hurt my wife today. He was selfish, and thoughtless, and stupid, but a fair number of WS's aren't trying to be mean to their BS. I believe they honestly think they have things under control, until they wake up and realize they have an intimate relationship with someone other than their spouse. STUPID!

It's very hard to love someone who won't admit their mistakes. Hopefully, Steve can get your WS to see that he had an AFFAIR, not a friendship.

Thanks TWC, Plan A is tough. I'mooking forward to our appointment with Steve.

I've started reading SAA today. Last night we went out on a date and we hung out together or most of today. I'm just trying to hold on until our appointment next week.

I finished reading SAA and have learned a great deal from it. The thing that scares me is that I dont trust H to start being honest with me. Those that have been here before what helped you? I can't get into his work email account which is where he did most of his activity. I asked him to take a poly but, that didn't go over well. Probably because it was wrapped in the form of a selfish demand.

Last night we were being intimate and I could not help but think that he possibly could have been doing the same things and more with OW. Also I couldn't stop thinking that he at least was thinking of doing them with her. I wanted to just stop but decided to try and get my mind on other things. Any one else wrestle with this?

RW,

Yes, your feelings are very normal. Many BS's struggle with being intimate with a WS for quite a while.

Glad to hear that you finished SAA. You should try to get your WH to read it as well if you can. It helps alot if you both understand alot of the basic concepts.

Hang in there until your appt. with Steve. When is that appt. by the way?

Mindshare

We had our appt. with Steve today. He spoke with us both just to get some basic info and then spoke with each of us alone. WH's assignment is to write a NC plan and NC letter based on template in SAA which is the same I suggested to him last week. the letter is to be sent by our next appointment. We will try and schedule our next appointment for later this week.

Steve says it's his job to get WH to see that this is an EA and counts as infidelity. WH still believes his only offense is in hiding the "friendship" from me. Seems like it's going to be an uphill battle.

I want to get WH to read SAA as well. I wanted to wait until after the appointment so that I can see whether he's still wanting to work for our marriage. The family memeber that I exposed to called over the weekend and said they want to speak with WH about his behavior.

He still says that he has not contacted OW however; I find it odd that he also says that OW has not tried to contact him. I don't believe it. I was told that both initiate contact so if he stopped emailing her then why wouldn't she have emailed him to see why he's been so quiet? Doesn't add up to me

How often is too often to ask about contact with the OW? I will ask Steve this at our next appointment.

Last question, for FWS out there. Will WH ever get to the point where he actually wants to disclose details to me? I'm the analytical type and feel I must have all details in any situation. I'm trying to give it time and take it easy before I ask for details again. It would of course be nice if I were offered details without asking.

RW, you will not trust your DH for a long time, and that's okay. Just don't make "A" talk the focus of every conversation you have with your DH. You have to balance your need to know with your task of making him feel your Plan A efforts. Try writing down your questions and then setting them aside for a while. Go back to them later and see if you REALLY want to know that. Remember everything your WS tells you about the A (after he is ready to admit that it was an A) will be a memory you have to deal with. I doubt most WS offer up information without being asked, either because of shame or not wanting to hurt their BS.

As for intimacy, that's a tough one. I know that there are still times that in the heat of the moment I sometimes think about what he may have done with the OW or is he reminded of his time with her, but I can usually redirect my thoughts with some effort. I am a strong believer in reclaiming experiences from the OW by doing them with my DH. I want to be his latest good memory.

I too had the issue of contact occurring at work. My DH works in a place that I can't have access to, so there is no way to control his work email or phone. He did get his phone number changed at work but his email is the same. The NC letter gave me some peace of mind, but mostly I had to evaluate whether he was being transparent with me and letting me know when the OW tried to contact him. His actions were the biggest thing that convinced me of his commitment to me.

Thanks TWC. Today's one of those days that I am wondering if it's better to just leave. H has shown no signs of being seriously committed to me and this marriage. He did attend the coaching session but, he's been with me to counseling before. While we were there he made a bunch of promises which none of them came to fruition.

H hasn't written the NC letter or mentioned the fact that he's supposed to compose the letter or the NC plan (I only know this because Steve told me). I'm not going to remind him to do his homework. If he doesn't want to do it then I'll just know he's not ready to work on this marriage.

I wish I could stop going back and forth between wanting to save our marriage and wanting to run far away from here. It would help me do a better job with Plan A. There are so many negative thoughts in my head that sometimes they consume me.

Today has not been a good day. I'm trying to prepare myself for going home this evening so that I don't commit any Love Busters. I've been thinking about all the times I've disregarded the anxiety I've felt twice every week just to attend our church, and all of the other pain that I have had to endure as I watch my H laugh and joke with this girl while we were there. I just can't get it out of my head. A place that I once enjoyed so much has now been ruined to the point that I don't want to go there anymore.

It doesn't help that OW commented on a photo of one of my friends (they don't know what's up) on FB and now her name is in my notification window. I doubt she didn't notice that I had already commented on the pic.

H and I got into an argument today. I tried to keep myself together but, it didn't happen. He's still lying, I have now found out that WH and OW not only email but also talk on the phone while he is at work. His first story was that he only wanted to talk to her those few times. I don't believe that he has not been physical with her. I would like to eventually negotiate that he take a poly graph to prove it.

My head is aching and I am hurt to what feels like beyond repair.

RW, I am sorry... I'm actually angry for you, right at this moment -- wish I could talk to your H and shake some sense into him.

Unfortunately, that's not a plan. I trust others on the forum will chime in more re: what you should do.

How has he been relating to you? What has he been saying? This week (since the conference-call with the counselor), in the most objective view you can give, does it seem to you that he's been doing anything different, anything that makes it appear like he's trying to understand your point of view? How did it happen, your finding out about his phone habits, how long ago were these latest calls, and do you have reason to think it's ongoing?

His parents tried to call and speak to him about it today. He didn't pick up the phone. They said they tried to call several times. At least he now knows that they know.

He hasn't been acting any differently since the call. He has not mentioned his assignments to me so I'm not sure if he has worked on them. That's what makes me believe that either he has contact with OW still or is just planning to let things cool down before he begins again.

I found out that he talks with her on the phone in conversation. I told him that it didnt add up that she has not tried to contact him. He then mentioned that when be spoke to her a couple weeks ago he told her they could not talk and this is why she supposedly has not contacted him. The last time be told me the "truth" about his involvement with her he specifically mentioned that they only email. I called him out on it then he lied about the frequency. He actually told me that he made a number up since I didn't believe that he didn't know. He is still justifying the reason he lied. He actually thinks it was ok for him to lie.

Should I cancel our next appointment with Steve? He's been to MC with me before a couple years ago and pretended that he was going to change so I'm hesistant to spend $ on the sessions for him to pretend and tell Steve what he wants to hear. My thinking is that I could save the funds for moving out if it comes to that. He's made it very clear that he will not leave no matter how much pain and agony it causes me for him to be there. We have a 1 yr old which would make it difficult for me to be on someone's couch.

H still believes he has done nothing wrong. He's acting really heartless, I can't believe I married this man. I'm so sad.

If anybody can get through it will be Steve.

I think his suit is impervious to bovine excrement.

I sure hope he can because H is full of it. H is also now at the point of not speaking to me.

I don't think I will ever understand why H can choose to "care for" someone as low as OW who is willing to be "friends" in secret. I'm upset that at this point he is more loyal to his relationship with her than he is to me or our family. He's a stubborn man and I'm beginning to wonder if I should just leave and save myself any more pain and anguish.

RW,

The reason he is doing this is because they are more then "just friends". You know it, I know it. But, he tells you that they are just friends so that he can justify to himself that it is ok to keep up the EA (which I believe is PA also).

Give it another session or two with Steve H. to see if he can make any progress with your WH. Tell Steve when you talk to him that you are getting to the end of your rope and don't have much left in the tank to continue. Hopefully, he can find a way to get through to your WH.

Hang tough!! You can do this!!

Mindshare

Thanks mindshare I don't believe they are just friends and do believe they have been physical.

I'm trying to stay strong but it's hard.

H is still not speaking to me. He has not done his assignments from our first coaching session. We have an appointment with Steve this morning. We'll see how it goes.

Good luck this morning RW. Make sure that you are clear with Steve that you are running on fumes at this point so he knows where you stand.

Let us know how it goes.

Mindshare

I'm hopeless that H will "ever get it". Today he made q decision to do something afterwork without consulting me first. He's done this thRoughout the time he was keeping a second life and k ow's it bothers me. I'm NOT telling him to ask for permission I'm just asking that he be respectful enough to consider me before making decisions. He doesn't know if i would have needed him to get the baby after work. When I calmly told him that it hurt my feelings his response was the same. He didn't know he should have consulted me first. I don't think he will ever get it and I don't know whether I can sign up for a lifetime of hi doing his own thing.

He still hasn't done the assigments or mentioned them to me. I assume that he's not going to do them. Which means to me that he doesn't want to recover his marriage the right way. He's prob thinking this will blow over and we will go back to being ppl who live 2 seperate lives. I won't be happy with that.

I'm so mad I could cry AGAIN. I'm not sure what Steve said to him. I'm supposed to be avoiding any love busters but it's hard.

Anyone deal with a spouse who says they want to change but their actions prove otherwise?

Yes. It is difficult to control one's self when one feels entitled to behave badly.


Yes. It is difficult to control one's self when one feels entitled to behave badly.

Yes, that double reply was on purpose.
Can you see why?

I hadn't realized that I'm acting just as immature as he is. He's now mad at me for some reason. Getting him to tell me why is always like pulling teeth. Should I just act like I don't notice?

Forget "getting him to tell me why".
Instead, behave in a way that makes it impossible for him to ignore that you are some wonderful woman who has a huge capacity to show her man love.

Every day ask:

"Is there anything I can do for you today?"

If he makes a request, do your best to make it happen.
If he says "No, nothing" .... YOU say "OK"

If he responds in some sullen pelulant manner, go up to him give him a squeeze and a pat on the butt, say;

"Let me know if you change your mind."

Then go about your business.
Ask again tomorrow.

And, when he does something nice for you, no matter how small or insignificant, you thank him sincerely and tell him how good it feels when he does (whatever-it-was).

Squeeze him.
Kiss his neck.
"THANK YOU SWEETHEART."

And, in the meantime, you put a GPS on his vehicle, spyware on his computer, and do whatever else it takes to make sure he's ended his A. (spy on him)

If you want to work on your M, work on your M.
You can do that and still keep an eye on him at the same time.

I just love it when someone utters such a simple truth. It deserves to be repeated. In LARGE font:

Yep, as simple as that statement is; I needed someone to say it to me. Thanks Pep and Fred.

This morning when I woke up I prayed about the situation and decided that being angry was getting me no where.

After work I'm going to stop and pick up something nice for H. I will begin treating him better than I have ever in the past. It will be hard for me not to respond in anger when he does something that I consider disrespectful but, I will be stronger for doing it. Hopefully my actions will be noticed and his actions will match up to what he says which is that he wants to work on the marriage.

RW,

Sounds like you are finally getting Plan A. That's exactly what you should be doing. You won't do it forever. Do it for a few weeks and see if you WH starts to change. If not, you might have to prepare yourself for Plan B.

Keep reading and posting. You will be just fine.

Mindshare

I was snooping and found out that H searched for OW's Twitter page on Monday night. He communicates with her at work so I have no solid proof that he has actually talked with her. Does this count as attempted contact? I'm upset but will not have an angry outburst & I won't let on that I know about this.

He didn't find her page but I know she has one because I looked on it trying to find out info about her boyfriend. Now that I say that I believe I know her BF's name! I'm going to get a FB friend to see if he's on her friends list. He's following her on Twitter and has the initials that she used in an email to WH when she was talking about the BF.

We have another appointment with Steve next week. H has not said anything about or has done any of the assignments. I did notice he read the first part of SAA. He told me this weekend that the A is not my fault, that it's his fault. I still feel partly responsible for the A.

So I've been trying to figure out who is OW's BF. Based on her twitter page I believe I found out who he is. I was not able to find a FB page for him but have found an alumni email address for him as I now know the guy I think it is went to the same University as I did. I also have found a LinkedIn page for this guy. I can not msg him on Twitter I don't think (I don't have an account anyway) but, I can msg him on LinkedIn or send an email to his alumni email address.

Does anyone think I have enough info to go by in order to contact him? He has the same initials that she uses when she refers to him in her emails to WH. The picture on Twitter looks sort of like what I remember from when he came to our church with her. The LinkedIn page refers to the Twitter account I found. If you thinking have enough info which way should I contact him? LinkedIn or his alumni email addy? I was going to use LinkedIn since you will get a notification to your email addy to let you know u have a message. My only prob is looking like a stalker since it usually for business networking.

Any tips for what I say to OWBF?

What do you WANT to say?

For starters, tell him that she's messing around with YOUR HUSBAND -- A MARRIED MAN.

And you want it to stop.

Personally, I don't believe in delving into other peoples' lives, but you might want to make it very clear to him that SHE IS CHEATING ON HIM.

Caution: if you make it too much about them and not about you and WH, you might just inspire him to end it with OW. Which could just send her deeper into the affair.

So, if nothing else, tell him OW is having an A with YOUR HUSBAND. And you want it to stop. End of story.

I'm not sure of what I want to say. It sounds silly but I feel like going through this has taken awa my ability to think and make decisions.

I guess I'd say I want to give him the facts about what is going on. Do I ask for his help in putting an end to the A. Last thing I want is to push OW toward my H. Right now I feel like if H had to pick he'd pick her. I'm working hard at plan A this weekend

It's OK, RedsWife. This is a major trauma, you're not expected to be thinking clearly and level-headed. That's why we're here to help.

Are you going to call or write? I had no choice, as the only phone number I could find for OMW was disconnected. So I wrote.

In my letter, I simply said, "The purpose of this letter is to inform you that your H, <his name> is having an affair with my W <her name>. I do not wish to know the circumstances of the relationship between you and OM, I just wish this affair to stop. I love my wife dearly and will go to any length to restore my marriage."

Incidentally, I gave her both of their names so that she would know I was talking about her H and was not some sort of crank.

Other than that, there isn't anything to say.

The purpose of exposure is to EXPOSE. You cannot determine or dictate what others are going to do. But once they have the knowledge of the affair, the bell has been rung.

You can't unring a bell.

And the light of truth begins to shine on the ugly darkness of a secret, illicit affair.

Your example is straight forward and to the point. I will try to do something like this. I wasn't sure if I needed to elaborate on details or not. This was really helpful.

You can say, "I have proof," if you want to add emphasis, but don't OFFER what you have. If asked, simply respond that you will be happy to provide it at the appropriate time and place. If asked where or how you got it, simply say, "from reliable sources."

You are not NEGOTIATING with these people. They are EXPOSURE TARGETS.

I sent the message to two email addresses I found for OWBF. One of which being his work email. So long as my messages don't go to spam he should get it. I wrote something similar to Fred's example above.

This evening H and I had a talk. He stated again that the A was not my fault and that he let his guard down and got caught in the emotion of it all. He has not finished reading SAA, I kind of feel like he prob doesn't want to instill the MB principles in our marriage. I'm not sure what Steve says to him but I sure hope he can sell him on the principles.
I did let H know that I saw he deleted his search for OW. He admitted to it right away and said it was a mistake. He said he deleted the history because he did not want to put any pressure on our relationship. That doesn't make any sense to me but I accepted his answer and did not get angry and yell like I would have in the past.

Am I on the right track? Does our situation sound hopeless? I'm having a hard time having hope that things will change but will keep trying to do my best.

I got a read reciept that my message to OWBF was opened this
morning. Do you think thus will cause OW to try to contact WH?

Yes. But not in a good way.

You see, exposure is like shining light on a sleeping vampire. Once the two realize their little secret is now out, they are going to start getting very angry.

Be warned: YOU are going to get the major brunt of their (his) ire. Do not be afraid and do not be dismayed. This is all part of the meltdown that begins the end of an affair.

It has begun.

OK, I'm nervous about the backlash as the last time it got really ugly around here. Nonetheless I'm ready to reclaim what is mine and will do what is necessary to save our M.

RW,

You are doing very well. Exposure is a necessary part of this process. Your WH is going to be upset with you when he finds out but do NOT get into a yelling match with him about it. If he gets angry simply state to him in the calmest and coolest manner possible "WH, I love you and I am taking the necessary steps to save our marriage". Don't say anything else beyond that. Just repeat that again and again if needed but stay calm and cool.

Also, it seems to me like you are making great progress! When you started posting your WH wouldn't even admit that he had an affair and now he is admitting to it and telling you it wasn't your fault. That's some serious progress already so try to keep your spirits up. You are doing well.

When do you next talk to Steve?

Mindshare

Thanks for the encouragement. Our call with Steve is tomorrow.

Hang in there honey.
Fasten your seatbelt.
Wear your hazmat suit.
You are going to be OK - irregardless of exposure anger.

I haven't heard anything back from OWBF. I suspect tomorrow H will probably get a call or message from OW.

I found out tonight that he has visited her at her house. I'm not sure how many times because the question I asked pertained to where be was on a certain night. He still says that nothing physical happened because get this! They both respected marriage. Really?

Hearing that was painful because for two years he has lied about that night. I was pregnant at the time and really needed someone, it was two nights after our 2nd anniversary and I had asked him to take me to dinner. He said that he asked her if he could come over her house.

He said he would get a poly test to prove he didn't have sex with her. I can't believe this is my life. I'm very hurt by the fact that he lied for so long but hopeful that he will begin to uncover the whole truth.

I really want to slap OW in the face right now too. She's always got this smile on her face when she sees me all the while knowing what she's doing with my H.

Our discussion about going to her place was done over email so that I avoid an AO. Now WH seems down, is this normal? What should I do?

I did respond to his message saying thank you for being honest and telling him that the poly would help me feel more comfortable.

Right now I'm just trying to show him that I love him. I will cry tomorrow when I am in my car alone.

RW,

You are doing great!!! Be strong!! You are chipping away at it and getting the truth. He is trickle truthing you right now which is like a death by a thousand cuts. Try to explain to him that it would hurt so much less if he would just be honest and tell you everything now rather the letting bits and pieces out over a long period of time.

Call his bluff on the poly. Find one in your local area and set up an appointment for him. He's already agreed to do it so you would be crazy not to see it through to get to the truth.

Most importantly, hang in there. Come here when you need to. We are here to help you. Try to keep up the best Plan A that you can.

Mindshare

I called this morning to set up a poly and had to leave a VM. H wants us to go out of town for V-day, I'm wondering if I should schedule the testing for before or after our trip? Or does it matter?

WH has not written the NC letter or plan that Steve assigned to him. If he doesn't then I will have to move to plan B. I don't have any sound proof that H is still in contact with OW. I'm guessing that him not writing the NC letter or plan does say though that he hasn't given her up? I just confused myself with that last statement.

Steve also wants us to have a discussion about what happened before our next appoinment. H seemed upset after he talked with Steve so I'm not sure what that was about.

I'm still very hurt and confused. I'm not sure of who I can trust these days. I look at my son having fun and filled with laughter and it makes me cry. I cry because I want to be the same way, I want to feel that I have a safe place, that I have somewhere that I can find refuge. I'm tired of crying and feeling abandoned by the one person who I love so much. Words can never explain how deeply I am hurt by this.

Anyway just wanted to let you all know that I am still hangin' in there...barely but, nonetheless I am.

I know what you mean about wanting to feel like you can be happy again. It is awesome how resilient children are. Sometimes I get jealous that my children can still play and laugh but then I think that it just shows how well I am taking care of them. They feel safe and loved. That brings a smile to my face. Also, sometimes I find myself singing in the kitchen and dancing and I hold on to those moments.

Some days are better than others, but there is always tomorrow.

P.S I am sad to say I am secretly(not anymore I guess hahahaha) a little jealous of you too.

I haven't posted to you yet but just caught up on the last couple pages of your thread. Just wanted to add that both my H and my sister's H got really quiet and sad when they were faced with a poly too. I agree w/Mindshare, I would go ahead and get it set up.

I had told my H that I would forgive him and want to work on the M no matter what, but that I just needed to have the truth and I couldn't bear any more ddays. H is a major conflict avoider, so without that reassurance, I don't know if he would have ever told me everything.

I also just wanted to tell you hang in there and that things will get better

{{{{RedsWife}}}}}

Thanks for the encouragement Scotland. Jealous of what? I wish niether of us were in this situation. Although I know we will come out stronger and wiser in the end.

Thanks for the hugs SusieQ. My H is a conflict avoider as well. I scheduled the poly for this Friday. I'm finally no longer afraid to hear the truth. When he told me last night that he was actually at OW house on the night in question, I felt such a release. I knew I wasn't crazy for thinking that he wasn't truthful about the situation. He of course made me seem like I was a whacked out wife for ever thinking such a thing. Fog babble I guess...

Today is one of those days that I just feel like crying. I try not to let his quietness get to me. I'm focusing on being the best wife I can be for him and right now I only cry when I am alone; which means while in the bathroom since I have a 1 yr old who follows me every where. My son is my saving grace in a weird way.

I know it has been asked around here often but, I need help with a plan B letter. H is refusing the NC letter and plan and in my talk with Steve he said I wil have to move to plan B if H doesn't write them.

Forgot to add that I calmly spoke to H about both the plan and letter and he is protesting writing the letter, he wants to send an email. Doesn't want me to mail a handwritten letter. The plan he claims he just hasn't gotten around to doing.
Mind you we were snowed in all weekend long. We just left the house today since Friday.

RedsWife,
Sorry he's still being a blockhead.
My wife & I never got to plan B, so I have nothing to offer on that, but am just bumping this up for the vets to see better.
Hang in there.

WH and I had a talk last night. He went back to saying he doesn't believe he's had an affair & has stopped reading SAA. H said that he wasn't happy with our marriage before all this started with OW. He never expressed his unhappiness to me because he thinks that's just not something you discuss with your wife. He says that he doesn't know why he was/is unhappy in our marriage since I'm attractive, don't withold SF, have a great personality and I can't rememeber the other things he said.

I told him that I believe Steve can help us with figuring out why H is unhappy but, before we can get into discovering things NC needs to be established with OW. And he needs to complete the assigned tasks in writing NC letter and developing a NC plan. He says he understands the purpose of the two assignments but doesn't see the point. He especially doesn't see the point in sending the letter via snail mail vs. email. I personally am more comfortable with snail mail because the way the two of them communicate most times is through email so I feel like the NC letter should arrive in a manner less familiar to them. If that makes sense at all.

We have another appointment with Steve coming up later this week. Hopefully he can help with this...

I forgot to say thanks for the response GO. Good luck to you and TWC in your recovery, you two (along with the others here) are an inspiration.

This is what my H said when there had been recent contact. How are you snooping on your H? Do you have a VAR in the car, do you have access to his emails, cell records?

There is a section in this forum with all posts broken down by section, under the "Plan B" I think there are some PBL links. Have you seen that yet? I will try to get you the link...

ETA: Found the link, scroll down to "Plan B" Notable Posts

Thanks SusieQ! H mainly contacts OW while at work. I do not have access to his work emails or phone calls. I do check his perssonal computer activity and cell records. I hadn't put VAR in the car since he doesn't talk much on his cell phone. I will look into getting one so that if he gets or has a secret phone I can catch that. I'm also looking into getting software that records his text messages as I know he has talked about OW to one of his friends over text before.

Thanks for the link, I will read through this later when I have time.

I am so glad that I posted details of our conversation here. I have a poly set up for Friday and will see if possibly the tester can add a question about whether he has had recent contact with OW.

I just thought about another question. I know that usually in Plan B the WS is asked to leave the home. I know that WH will not leave so I am planning to just pack DS and my things and leave the letter for him to find. Im going to stay with family but, how much of my things should I take?

I hate having to plan to leave and never thought it would come to this...

RW,

You are doing good. Keep executing your plan. No LB's and a strong Plan A. Show WH what a strong woman you are.

Susie might be on to something with contact. It seemed like he was starting to turn a corner (admitting A, etc.) and then he pulled back again all of a sudden. That is a classic symptom of contact with OW.

Can you post your list of Q's for the poly? Many people here can help you with these if you need it. Is WH still on board with taking it?

Mindshare

WH is still on board with taking the poly. I am supposed to call the examiner and to tell her our back story. She knows that I want to find out if WH has done anything physical with OW. I don't have the specific questions yet. Once I get them (I assume she comes up with them?) I will post them.

I will take any suggestions of questions for the poly. I'm hoping that she can also ask if he has had any contact with her recently. Supposedly the last contact was made on Jan. 14

I feel like I'm not doing well but I'm going to keep trying. I'm not sure what will knock some sense into this man.

One more thing, you can install flexispy on iphones, it has a package with all the bells and whistles ~ phone tapping, gps, keylogger, etc....or just bare bones keylogger. Just thought I would throw that out there.

I had forwarded to my sister by email a list of Qs that were compiled by Schoolbus for another poster here going for the poly. I think it was lost in the crash, but I will try to see if I can find it or if my sister held on to it.

Lastly, can you tell us more about this OW? Have you confronted her? Did you talk to her boyfriend?

H has a BB, I looked into flexispy but I was told that it would not record BB messenger conversations. So I was going to see if there's an option out there that keeps track of texts and BB messenger. Although if the flexispy for BB has keylogger it wouldn't matter. I want to get something installed before this week is out.

I confronted OW way back in 2008 when they first began their friendship. She stated that her intentions were pure and she didn't want to be the cause of discord in our marriage. Which was all a lie considering how a week later H was at her house. He told me he was there watching TV! That's laughable... She had a meeting with the Pastor at our church and lied to his face about their involvement. She then proceeded to send me another email telling me I am causing too much drama and she will never even think about, breathe on or talk to either me or H (again a lie!). She's just moved 3 horus away in November to take a new job since she was laid off last year. She didn't have a BF when she and H began their relationship but has since acquired one. H says they mainly talk about her BF. I did some investigations and found out who her BF was and sent him an email. I now have found his phone number and wish that I had called instead. He read the email 4 times on Monday, I know this because I put an email tracker on it. BF did not reply to my email. I was expecting backlash to come from it but so far all has been quiet. That's really all I know about OW. If I could find her mom's name and information I would let her mom know what is going on. From reading OW emails to WH she respects her mom's opinion a lot.

I have not confronted OW recently altough I have wanted to.

I wish that back then I had known about this website because I did many things wrong with LBs and all that.

I've exposed to WH parents, siblings, co-worker, our friends, and my family. none of this has seemed to bother him. His dad and mom both called him to tell him how disappointed they were in him and to make it right but so far nothing...

The guy across from me is calling to check on his wife...that just made me want to cry :-( I wish I had a husband who cared...

WHOA !
Please add this and necessary details to the spying thread (link)

Mucha gracias.



LINK

Pepperband, will do!

Redwife, IDK why I thought your H had an iPhone, oops! I think you are right about the BIM issue, I have a friend who said the same thing. Shoot!

After I wrote my post I thought to myself "duhh why don't you just do a search online to see if you can find out her parents' name". I found a few possible phone numbers and addresses should I call OW family? Since she doesn't have a H and the BF didn't respond I'm not sure what to do.

I just want to reclaim what is mine and work on our marriage. I want to do what ever it takes to kill this affair.

Also if I call OW parents, what do I say to them? The same thing I basically said to BF? Which was basically that this has been going on for almost 2 years. I love my H and want the affair to stop.

RW, I need to do my due diligence and read your whole thread. I will try to do it tonight after I put my son to bed.

But yes, if you think there is still contact and you never exposed to OW's family, that may be a good idea. If you can find her on FB, and her parents are on there, you could even expose to them that way. I know ML has written some good FB exposure letters for the parents to other posters. Do you want me to try to find one for you? Hopefully some others will chime in.

Hang in there!

WH has created a no contact plan, should I post what he wrote here? I believe he was working on the no contact letter last night however our son woke up and he tended to him. So I'm expecting he'll get it to me today.

I'm still working on Plan A. Pepper and Fred really got my but in gear with that last week. I'm thankful they did because Plan A has helped me to see where I need improvement.

Taking it one day at a time...

Last thing, Is all of this back and forth is a normal wayward pattern?

OK, I thought of one more thing. Yesterday I noticed on FB that OW posted on a mutual friend's page saying that she was gone for a while but now she's back. So now I'm going to have to find out if she's moving back to our town and thus coming back to our church or not. I can't see her page so I'm unsure of what my friend posted on OW page to prompt that response.

RW,

I had a list of Plan A stuff I read every day to keep myself on track, have you read up on things like Mr. W's do's and don'ts? I can post that stuff for you if you like.

Yes, it's so normal for waywards to remain very "foggy" while there is any contact at all and even into w/d. My H's behavior while there was still contact was so baffling to me...hence the need for reading my Plan A notes before almost any interaction with him...so that I wouldn't "react" to it...

I was looking at the "OW was a Friend" thread and there is some info about exposing OW that I think could help you. ---> LINK

Please post your H's NC plan!

I will go and read the link. I'm not sure I read the do's and don'ts of Plan A but I will see if I can find them in the notable posts link you gave me. I'm surprising myself at how much control I have had with preventing AOs and such. I'm glad that I am now talking to WH in a calm manner without yelling.

Here's what he wrote:

I will avoid any type of contact, directly or indirectly.
I will not initiate contact in any way including all forms of communication.
If I am contacted in any way including telephone, email, fax or any way of communication, I will let you know immediately.
If paths are crossed at church I will not converse or chit chat in any way and separate myself from the area immediately.
This includes all forms of communication and all scenarios.

H and I talked last night. He admitted to being at OW house on more than one occasion. He says this was all 2 years ago. Other than giving her a hug goodbye he says he did not have any physical contact with her. The poly is scheduled for today.

When we talk to Steve I will go over what H wrote as his NC plan. I did suggest that he has a plan of what he is going to do at the moments when he feels like he wants to call OW. We also will get Steve's input as to whether it matters if we send the NC letter snail mail or email since H and I can't come to an agreement on that.

When we were talking last night H said that sometimes when he gets quiet it's because he's struggling with the fact that it feels weird to be talking to me. He said that even though he's suppposed to be talking to me it feels weird because for the past 2 yrs. he's been conversing with her. So because of all that he's struggling with the fact that it doesn't feel natural to be talking to me even thought I'm the woman he should be talking to. Does that make sense?

It's all part of withdrawal RW. OW is a drug that he is giving up. He is going to crave her for a while still. Keep up the stong Plan A and make it so that you are the one that he WANTS to talk to.

Good luck with the poly today and let us know how it goes.

Mindshare

The poly showed that he was truthful about it not being a PA. I'm glad that I finally know the truth about that part. WH and I had a talk last week and he said that I now know everything that went on with him and OW. He's been willing to answer my questions about the A so hopefully that is a good sign.

OW appeared at church yesterday. I'm now going to have to find out if she's moving back to our town. Should I try and find out this info on my own or just ask WH if he knows about it? I'm not clear on how much I should bring up OW since now my focus is on what I can do to help recover our M. I do feel comfortable asking WH about the A when questions come to mind but, I don't want to make it like I dwell on thinking about OW.

We won't be able to have an appointment with Steve for another week due to funds. The poly was expensive but it was worth having the peice of mind.

I'm keeping up with Plan A and trying to find ways/ideas to snoop on his work activity. He moved out of an office to a cube so I'm hoping that will cut down on the lengthy conversations between WH and OW during work hours. H says that he has not had contact with OW since 1/14/10.

Glad the poly went as it did.

The church thing is bothersome. Was your H also there yesterday? You do realize that you & your husband can't be there if it's the case that she's going to be there on a repeated basis, right? (My wife & I just went through a stir last month where OW showed up at our church for a couple of consecutive weeks, and we ended up needing to get our pastor involved to put a stop to it.)

More fundamentally: You say your H been willing to answer my questions about the A. Does he in fact acknowledge his emotional affair as an affair? I recall he seemed to be stuck on that. If he doesn't acknowledge this, then being in a cubicle (as opposed to an office) is scant protection from contact.

He's back to now admitting that yes it was an EA. Is this flip flopping normal?

I understand that moving to the cube won't necessarily prevent contact. I'm just hoping that with others in ear shot he won't have hour long conversations with OW as opposed to actually doing his work like he has been doing in the past. Hopefully I can find a way to snoop on what's actually going on at work so that I can have more assurance that NC is being withheld.

This was the first time to my knowledge that OW has been back to our church since she moved a couple months ago so I'm not sure if this is going to be a weekly thing or not. H was with me yesterday. We haven't talked about it because I didn't want to seem like I'm dwelling on OW and I'm not sure how to approach the subject.

Today I have been bothered by two things that H has said. Over the weekend he said that he wants to make things right but he doesn't want to do the work required to gain my trust back. When I asked about it he said that he's willing to put in the work but knows it will be a lot. This didnt make sense to me. Is this typical fog babble? Is this indicative that he's having contact with OW?

I plan to find out wheher she has moved back to our town or not. So I know whether we need to immmediately find another church or not.

The second thing WH said that confused me js that he didn't trust me. Thus made no sense to me. If anyone knows whether this is just fog babble or something I need to really pay attention to then please let me know.

I feel like WH is going to wait for things to blow over then we retun to status quo. Which wasn't great. I'm not sure if there's something I can do that would influence him to want to strive for a great marriage rather than a mediocre one.

Hi, RedsWife,

Yeah, your WH sounds very foggy still.

When you had your poly, did the examiner ask if he was still in contact?

No, the 3 questions all pertained to whether or not H did anything physical with OW.

I just found out that there's a way for H to access his work email at home. I will ask him for his password.

Typical fog babble. Waywards frequently feel distrustful of their spouses for several reasons: They know they themselves are not trustworthy, and they are "a good person" so how can anyone else really be trustworthy? They know they have behaved in a reprehensible way and they think if the roles were reversed they would be seeking out someone else, so they suspect the BS may be seeking out others. Another reason is gaslighting - just crazymaking stuff to make you doubt your own sanity and reality. Ignore him.


You are right, "status quo" is not good enough. That's what got you into this mess. He has terrible boundaries and he will need to learn to fix them -- but that's for him to do, not you, and that's also for later, not now.

I think the main thing you can do is enhance your Plan A. From what you've posted here (I just read your thread beginning to end) you seem to have angry outbursts under control - better, if not completely. You could probably work on selfish demands some, and I guarantee you need to work on disrespectful judgments. I see a lot of them in what you post.

Also, I don't see much of how you're meeting his ENs. If you're not posting about them, then you're not dwelling on them. You need to be the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Think of it this way. Your husband is wayward in mindset if not in action right now. He is examining everything under a microscope and trying to justify his poor behavior. If RW hadn't been so angry or bossy or naggy or if she was a better listener or more fun to be around THEN he wouldn't have been "forced" to find friendship elsewhere.

Plan A is critical right now. Don't give him ammunition! Don't feed his desperate need to justify his poor behavior to himself. Be a shining beacon of wifely wonderfulness.

I think you talk way too much with him about relationship stuff and affair stuff. There is a time for that. Right now is the time to win him back. Later is the time to dissect the marriage and fix the foundation. Not now. Right now you need to be fun, attractive, and desirable. Right now you need to win his commitment to the marriage (without TALKING about it). Later, AFTER he's committed, is the time for talking about things. If you try to talk about the relationship right now all he'll see is that the marriage is no fun, a killjoy, and not something he's 100% interested in bothering with.

Review your Plan A. You're doing very well - I see huge improvement since you came here. Kick your Plan A into high gear and I think he will come around. Give it time, don't despair when he waffles (they all do). Keep your eye on the plan.

This was awesome advice thanks turtlehead. I definitely need to work on the disrespectful judgments as I don't really even notice I am doing these (that's sad I know). Right now I am reading Love Busters and am working to fix myself in this area.

Our assignment for this week from Steve was to do the ENs questionnaire. We are going to do this when we go out of town this weekend. Other than conversation and physical attractiveness I am unsure of what his ENs are. I have gotten back into working out and going to the gym. I've also put more thought into what I wear each day. I'm trying to keep up on his TV shows and basketball team so that I can talk with him about that. Once I know more of his needs I will come here and ask for ideas in how to meet them.

I will lay off the R talk

RW,
It *is* sad how many of us commit LBs without even realizing it, myself included. I was shocked to learn all the damage I was doing, without even knowing it. In fact, I've not paid attention to what comes out of my mouth recently and this is a good reminder to re-visit LBs and focus on getting them under control. DJs are my worst offense, too.

That's great that you guys are doing the EN questionnaires. Most people have to just guess. If he does his, you will have a road map to lead the way. That's a great advantage.

An update for those following our story.

With the exception of filling out our EN questionares this weekend I have not discussed relationship stuff. Today was the only day that I asked about the affair.

WH listed admiration as his top EN. I kind of picked up on that last week when I was trying to remember what I used to do for him back when we were dating. Sadly almost immediately after our wedding things started going downhill. I didn't realize it at the time but, I was LBing like crazy and unknowingly stopped meeting his top EN. I'm having a hard time finding things to say to him in the admiration category. I'm so hurt that it's hard to do. I have been working at this daily. He has responded very well so far to this.

WH's 2nd EN was physial attrativeness. I will stop being lazy in this category. His others were SF, DS, and surprisingly to me FS. He prefers me to have a career and contribute financially to the family.

I have asked about what chores are most important to him and we are putting together a chore chart to split duties. As it is now WH does most of the house work. I always thought he liked doing all of that stuff since he rarely asked me to help out. He's way more of a neat freak than I am but, will be happy to make the bed if I know it will make deposits.

Overall the questionaire was enlightening. I'm glad we did it. WH hasn't asked much about how he can meet my ENs but I'm assuming that will eventually come once he's completely committed to the M.

I'm still working to find ways to snoop on his work activities so I can monitor whether he is still in contact with OW. I had thought about a hardware keylogger but, it's state property so I'm not sure I can do that. A coworker of his would have to install it for me.

Any and all suggestions for what else I should be doing is appreciated. We have another appt with Steve this week

I forgot to add that I believe OW has now moved back to our town and thus is now back to attending our church on a weekly basis. I've successfully avoided going there the past week due to being out of town and etc. I need help on how to tell WH that we need to change churches now, my usual way would include AO, DJ , and SDs so any help on the wording of this would be good.

We both really loved our current church and this is where all of our friends are at. WH doesn't like the idea of moving however I know R will not work if we continue there.This is one thing I want to bring up with Steve.

I woke up this morning with this nagging feeling that WH is still being deceitful. So now I'm even more on a mission to find ways to snoop on his work activity. I have written a letter requesting phone records from his job due to the FOIA (our state law equivalent). It may take a while to get them though.

I wouldn't be able to install the hardware keylogger with out his coworker's help. This person seems hesistant to help me out with that. They have been keeping their eyes open for any fishy activity at work now that she knows about the A.

Days like this I feel really angry and wonder if it's worth it to go through the process. I saw someone's signature that said something like recovery isn't for the weak (I'm sure I messed that up!) but I'm realizing that the statement is very true. I'm starting to re-evaluate whether after all is said and done can I find myself to be happy with him after all of the pain he has caused.

Please forgive my sulking...I'm venting here in an effort to prevent an AO once I get home this evening.

Hey RW!

It's ok to sulk or complain here. That's one of the fine services we provide!! You are much better to do that stuff here then with WH.

Listen, recovery after an EA is a long hard road. It's a marathon not a sprint. You have to keep making lb deposits for a sustained period of time before the 'in love' feelings return. Keep doing what you are doing. It would be nice if WH would engage at some point soon but it may just take more time. If admiration is tops on his list it should be an easy one to meet. When he gets home from work thank him for working hard to support the family. When he cleans the house comment on how nice it is to have a clean house. All of these little comments add up over time so keep it up!

As for your nagging feeling, this is pefectly normal! You have been betrayed! This can go on for quite a while! Do your best to keep snooping.

Hang in there. Your family is worth it. If WH never wakes up and gets it you'll have plenty of time to plan a new life without him. For now, keep working to meet EN's and stop LB's, AO's and DJ's.

You can do this!

Mindshare

Oh....and ditch the church. I know that will be tough but you have to prevent any chance of contact. That means you need to find a new church. Sorry!

I agree, ditch the church. Unless WH wants to get up in front of the church and publicly apologize or something like that.

You asked how can you broach this without any DJs, AOs, or SDs. Tough nut to crack.

Men love to fix things. I think I would approach it like this:
WH, now that OW is in town and attending our church again, it is agony for me to be there, or to even think about going, or get ready to go. I love our church and we have some great friends there, but I cannot live with OW present in a place that is supposed to be a haven and a safe place for us. Her presence is turning everything about that church into a source of torture for me. What should we do?

Then just sit and let him come up with an answer. Just keep your mouth shut and let him ponder it. He might try to avoid responding; if he does, don't push it. Just tell him maybe you both need time to think it over, and when would be a good time to bring it up again? Then bring it up then.

There is really only one answer. If he comes up with it himeslf, he wont' fight with you about it. If he comes up with putzy halfway answers, tell him you appreciate it and you'll think it over. Then come back here if you need help formulating a response.

Thanks mindshare and turtlehead. I will use the "fix it" suggestion and let you know how it goes.

DS has been keeping us up all night sick the past couple days so I'm off to bed early.

RW, I know the church thing is hard.

As I may have mentioned, my A was with a woman from the church we'd been at for 13 years. W & I had been so involved there & had many friends, but I threw it all away for 10 weeks of stupidity & selfishness. We had to leave in order to preserve NC. It took us 8 months to find another place we felt comfortable. I hated feeling like a refugee on Sunday mornings, and hated that I'd been the cause of my family feeling that way.

But we eventually found a place & have begun making new friends, slowly. And our friends from the old church? Well, the ones whom God meant to stick by us, have stuck by us, and the more casual ones have sort of fallen out of touch. But saving our marriage was way more important, and so while I regret having put us in a place where this decision to leave had to be made, I don't ever regret that we made the decision.

The thing that makes moving churches hard for me is because I know that WH is totally against it, I don't even want to have the conversation with him about it. I'm at the point where I'm tired of going to battle about stuff. In my mind it should be really simple, OW is guaranteed to be there so we shouldn't be.I'm not sure why WH doesn't get this. He thinks it's silly for me to be bothered by OW being there. His stance is that it's our home church and God didn't tell us to move churches. My response to that would that God didn't tell him to have an EA either.

I'm going to try and have the conversation with him today as the angst of going to church tomorrow already started yesterday.

I can only use but so many excuses not to go especially since I have been a large part of our children's ministry there. The ministry is stretched for volunteers so I know it will leave them in a bad position but, my family comes before church.

Pray for me!

I had the convo with WH today. I told him that it's agony for me to go there and see OW every week. And asked him what we should do. To which be said "I guess you want to find go to another church". I told him that's what I think would solve the problem. So we'll be visiting around. I can tell he's not happy about t
it. So the conversation didn't really go as well as I wanted.

TWC & GO any tips on finding a new church? Also anyone that can give pointers on how to make this a team effort I'm all ears. StTus quo for us was always WH going along with what I liked, he rarely gave his input. I want thugs to be different.

Thanks for all the help so far.

WH found the letter I had written requesting his work email and phone records and got very angry with me. I let my sister borrow my laptop so I had to write the letter on his, I'm not sure why I wasn't more careful about it.

In his AO he told me that I should not have requested the letters from 2008- now. That I should only request them from Jan 2010- now to prove he isn't communicating with OW. He said that I am going to see things that I don't want to see. I told him that he should not be the judge of what I do or do not want to see. I so asked him what are the things he is referring to and be had no answer.
In his AO he so said that he only cares about our son. He is finished and regrets taking the poly. He said that the sex was the main part of the issue. I told him that the pain I feel due to his EA doesn't go away because henproced he did not have sex. To me that is not the main issue.

He said that coaching obviously isn't working because I want to know info from 2 yrs. ago. He said he's done and frankly I'm tired of going to battle for a relationship that he is so nonchalant about. I'm going to make arrangements to take my son and move out by the end of the week.

Pls forgive my typos. I am posting from a my phone in a hotel.

While I was driving I realized that WH's blow up was probably gaslighting. I'm not sure what he is trying to cover up but, hopefully the records will help me find out

gaslighting would be correct. And my thoughts on the church are this:


This is a brazen hussy who comes back to a congregation where she has shamefully sought a relationship with another woman's husband. This congregation is not about worship to her. And if your husband pitches a fit about staying there, it's not about worship to him either.

RW,

Sorry to hear about this latest development. The MB community is here for you! Keep coming here for support and venting.

It sure seems like WH is dead set on hiding something from you. As long as he insists on keeping secrets then your M wil not be able to recover. You are doing the right thing by trying to get the truth.

Hang in there!!

(((((RW)))))

Mindshare

I couldn't agree more. It sounds like your WH has something else to hide, possibly something bigger.

Keep doing your Plan A even though I know it's the last thing you want to do.

Find a place to move to.

Draft a Plan B letter and post it here. When it's ready, move out and leave the letter and be pitch dark.

Your WH is not yet committed to working on the M and it sounds like you are pretty much at the end of your rope.

You are doing all the right things. You will never look back on this and wonder if there was something else you could have done better or differently. Just Plan A as best you can until you have your Plan B letter, and a place to go to, and you can move out.

I really hate he's being such a fog ridden wayward.

turtlehead you are right in that the last thing I want to do is to keep up with Plan A. Even though I don't feel like it I will anyway.

WH says that he's upset about the fact that I want to know details from up to two years ago. I told him that I wanted the whole truth and the only way I could verify that he actually gave me the whole truth (which he didn't) was to obtain the records.

I went to view an apartment today. It would be a sub-lease with 4 months left on the lease and the option to re-lease. I wouldn't tell WH of course that the lease is only 4 months.

Thnaks Kayla and mindshare. I really appreciate your support. I'm not sure what it is that he's working so hard to hide.

Ok, I am terrible at writing so I just read the samples and pulled parts that sounded like something that I would write and added in my own stuff. I feel like the teacher is going to get me for plagiarism! Tell me if it's too long or if I am missing a piece. I appreciate everyone's feedback on my Plan B letter

I chose to use my mom as an IM, let me know if you think that may be too awkward.

Dear husband,

This is a difficult letter for me to write. As I am writing this letter I remember the time when you went out of your way to find the Hallmark kissing bears that I wanted and create Valentine's in July for us. You were hurt and angered by the way I had been treated by S and wanted to do something special to show me that our relationship would be different. I am writing this letter with the true love that only a wife can have for a husband. When you read it please know that it is from the bottom of my heart.

It has become evident that our M has suffered due to neglect by both of us. While striving to pay off debt and meet the needs of our family we have missed meeting each other's needs. I sincerely apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that hurt our relationship. I neglected your needs, and failed to give you the support you needed many times. I want to do whatever I can to work together to create a marriage that we both enjoy and want to be a part of. I feel that I have been learning ways to be the type of woman that I hope you would be proud to call your wife, as I have so many times felt pride in calling you my husband.

I can commit to a marriage based on honesty, openness and mutual respect and care for the other's well-being. I can commit to marriage with you on those terms - I cannot commit to a marriage on terms other than those.

I have thought about my mistakes and I am willing to work hard to correct them and create a new life for both of us that will meet both our needs. I cannot continue to do that until you end your relationship with OW and all other relationships and emotional commitments which require you to maintain a secret second life that takes away from our relationship, for once and for all. I love you and I want our marriage to work but in order to preserve my love for you I am no longer able to maintain contact with you.

I ask that you please respect my decision to separate in this way. I have written a plan below for you to maintain contact with C. If you need to contact me, please do so through my mom she will pass on any important messages to me.

* Sunday night- C at my home
* Monday Night- C at my home
* Tuesday Night- C at my home
* Wednesday night- C at your home, I will drop him off at daycare and you may pick him up
* Thursday night- C at your home
* Friday night- C at your home
* Saturday night- C at my home- You may drop him off at my mom's home at 3pm. each Saturday.


I will be seeking counsel on how to best protect C financially, specifically child support and how to set that up.

I want us to be a team, and restore our marriage together. I want you to know that no matter how bad the past was, no matter how ugly, we can get past it. With God's help, our true healing can begin.

I want to grow old with you. When you find yourself ready and willing to truly and fully commit to our family, willing to work on a plan for our recovery, I will be ready and willing to discuss our future.

I will know that you have made that commitment when the following conditions are met:

* Maintain no contact with OW for life
* Finish reading SAA
* Admittance that you were involved in an emotional affair
* Full confession with a willingness to answer any questions I may have that will help "fill- in" the details.
* Willingness to be transparent in providing full disclosure of all email and phone accounts along with disclosing the passwords to each account.



Your loving wife,

RW,

This is what is referred to around MB as 'Josephs Letter'. It's a letter that a BS can give to a WS to hopefully help them see why we need to know the truth about what they've done. Why sweeping it under the rug will hinder recovery. It's probably a long shot with your husband but you may want to try giving this time him. It certainly can't hurt.

Mindshare


"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

Thanks mindshare I have given it to him. I will let you all know whether it helps him understand where I am coming from.

Here's the response WH sent me in regards to Joseph's letter. He's still refusing to provide details and has threatened to end our relationship if I go on with requesting the records. I'm not sure how to respond and welcome everyone's input.

I will call and see if we can move our appointment with Steve up since I am supposed to have a decision on the sub-lease this week.

Beginning of WH's response:
Its nice that you so elegantly put it that way but I can't heal the past, I can only let my actions heal the present and going forth. Like I said, you are more concerned about the details of a story where you already know enough grueling information to process and say ok there it is, now let's move forward. I don't want to move forward because "I want this to go away." HELL, this ain't going away for a long time. Every time I say I'm going to play madden, every time I'm busy at work and don't call as much, every time I'm somewhere by myself "thought" are going to pop in your head. We will be on a nice vacation just hanging out and a thought will pop in your head, we will finish making a love and a thought again. We will be watching tv and a wife sleeps with another man and a thought from our past will enter. I KNOW this and it won't go away for YEARS.
And the longer you try to "investigate" details the further behind we will be. I KNOW this not "just going to go away" but we started coaching so we can move forward. He has a plan to move us forward but your actions or the actions you would like to take is only moving us backward.

With his coaching I'm trying to show you I'm a different person but that's not your concern right now. So it is correct that you are not as concerned about moving forward as the marriage coach thinks you are. It has nothing to do with "look tia will you please just get over it." You won't be getting over it anytime soon...anytime soon. And I CAN and WILL accept that and deal with it. But for you to act like you are showing grace and act like you are ready to move forward and act like you want us to be happy but then react with "I want to know everything" when you already know everything tells me your actions are fabricated. You don't want to move forward, you are more concerned with finding out all you can so you can have a reason to not move forward.

You know we never slept together, didn't even come close. You know we only hung out at her house, you know I have told her she was attractive, you know we built a friendship, you know there was an emotional connection, you know I kept talking to her when I said I would stop, you know I mostly talked to her at work and over the phone, you know I had to really care about her to keep talking to her, you know at the time I cared more about my relationship with her than with you b/c I kept talking with her, you know all of this. All of the other stuff you want to know Will Not help us move forward.

I'm not placing the blame on you nor am I saying you are dumb for wanting to keep "digging." And I do care about and love you..I was mad the other night. But if you do this I am done with trying to make it work since you not trying to make it work ALL the way that you say you are. You said it's only been three weeks, I say I have been walking around thanking God for helping me and happy I have been obeying HIM and honoring you for 3 weeks and looking forward to doing it another 3 weeks and so on. But clearly, this isn't enough and yea you have been "doing" it for 2 years and I haven't but thank God at least HE doesn't bring up my past, accepts me for where I am now and is molding me to moving forward. So if we end b/c pf this even tho its ALL my fault..100% I will rest in knowing I can move forward in HIM.

End of response.

I'm still not sure what is it he is trying to hide. He says I know everything yet he specifically told me that I am going to see some things that I "don't want to see"

RW,

Plenty of blame-shifting going on with WH. This makes me very suspicious. He sure is fighting hard to keep you from reviewing the past. Definitely could be more skeletons in the closet that he doesn't want to see the light of day. His lack of empathy is still very disturbing as well. He just wants to sweep everything under the rug and for you to 'just get over it'. That can be common with alot of waywards.

Definitely call and see if you can move up your appointment with Steve. Tell him it is an emergency and that you are about to go into Plan B and need his counsel before doing so.

What do you have left in the tank? Is your LB almost empty? Pay close attention to how you are feeling about WH. The timing of Plan B is crucial.

Mindshare

Mindshare right now I guess I can say I'm at my wits end. I will try and see if I can get an appointment with Steve asap. I have to make a decision on the sub-lease and I'm leaning towards going ahead and signing it. If lose him I lose him

RW, I have been reading your thread and my heart goes out to you. I too experienced the betrayal of an EA in my marriage, and it was awful.

I am no expert, and certainly I'm no MB veteran, but how is he in any kind of position to leverage a response from you?? If he wants to truly recover your marriage and "be a better person" (as he wrote), then he needs to demonstrate a willingness to give you whatever you need to feel safe in the relationship. Trust is not yours to give; it's his to EARN. BS's often need to feel that they have all the truth, even if it is hurtful. It takes away that feeling of powerlessness, and gives you the information you need to make an informed decision concerning YOUR life. He is not willingly according you that, and to me that's a huge red flag.

And I would absolutely call him on the contradictory statements. Ask him: "Honey, since you said I already know everything, how could there possibly be things from the past that I "don't want to see"? his response to this will be telling.

I suspect he is gaslighting you - trying to confuse you by throwing dust in your face to obscure the real issue (i.e. his infidelity).

I hope you can get an appointment with Steve asap. God bless you and direct your path.*HUG*

RW,

Can you post the exact questions that were asked on the poly word for word? I don't remember seeing the questions posted by you. If I missed it then sorry. I'd like to see the exact word for word questions if you have them.

Mindshare

You're not crazy.
Your WH is blame shifting.

IF you already know everything, as he claims, then he shouldn't care how much you care to go back and dig. IF he is truly committed to earning back your trust, he'd welcome any evidence that corroborates what he is telling you. The evidence won't corroborate, though, and that is why he is worried. That is why he's shifting the blame to you.

You know perfectly well that a marriage can only be built on complete honesty. He's not there yet. He wants to act nice now and sweep the past under the rug. That is a bandaid, though, and the wound will fester underneath it all. Maybe you'll go along seemingly happily for the rest of your days and maybe your marriage will die of blood poisoning.

Don't try to convince your WH, you can't. It's futile, it's a LB, there's no point. Just know that you are healthy and sane.

Your Plan B letter is way too long (the first drafts always are). I'll take a stab at ruthlessly and cruelly cutting big hunks out of it and post here in a little bit.

Good grief. Typical WS attitude. I sense very little from his note that he intends to fully open up to you at any time. And he's trying to make his inability to act in a trustworthy manner YOUR problem to deal with.

Sheesh. He needs a good 2x4, that's what he needs.

A possible response to this gaslighting: "With all due respect, H, it is not for you (as a WH) to decide what I NEED to move forward. As the betrayed party in this equation, only I can know that. Also, you do not live inside my head, nor are we the same person, so when you tell me what my motives are--what I'm *really* thinking/feeling/wanting/etc.--you are defining me and hence speaking nonsense. At least have the decency NOT to tell me what I am or am not thinking."

Take it or leave it
Waywards have a notoriously SHORT attention span so you pretty much have to make your point and run.

I'm not sure I still have the exact questions that were asked. I dealt with the poly examiner over the phone and wrote the questions on a sticky note. I will try and find this. I usually have a good memory but this whole situation has me out of whack.

They were something like have you ever had any sexual contact with anyone other than your W since you've been married.

Have you ever had any sexual contact with OW?

and I can't remember the third right now. I'm sure I messed up the exact wording but all of the questions dealt with sexual activity. None referring to whether he was in active contact with OW.

Glad to know I'm not crazy. I have been asking myself this question all day. A friend of mine said she agreed with WH that why would I want to see records from 2 years ago and just request them from the point that he was supposed to have no contact.

I'm sooo tired of this drama. I have always been the person to walk away when too much drama ensued in a situation. This time I can't just walk away...

I really wish I can smack him with one sometimes...

RW,

My best guess is that WH confided something to OW in emails from work that he doesn't want you to know about. Perhaps invovlement with someone before you were married? I don't want to speculate to much because I don't want your mind racing to fill in the blanks. It just seems pretty evident that he has something significant to hide from you or he wouldn't mind you seeing.

Mindshare

Thanks all for your replies. I appreciate your input.

WH just sent me an email to say he won't be right home after work today. With no explanation of where he is going. When the heat is on he tends to run. He knows that I know he is hiding something.

turtlehead I will take your suggestions on shortening the letter.

Mindshare my thoughts exactly. I'm thinking that it's something that he shared with her that he doesn't want me to know.

Believe it or not he used to be a man who valued honesty, and transparency.

I forgot to add that WH didn't want the coaching session to interfere with his work schedule so we kept it for Friday.

I did however send Steve an email. Hopefully he will have time to respond to me.

Good RW. Good job. Keep your head up! You are NOT crazy! We know how you feel. Once you understand MB concepts you can see how crazy it is to 'sweep things under the rug' as so many people do when they attempt recovery. That approach won't get you back to a healthy marriage. You are smart enough to know that.

I talked with Steve and he said that he didn't think it was a good time for me to leave yet since we had made some progress. I had already put in the application for the apartment.

Steve gave me a suggestion on now to approach WH with the subject of the emails. He did say that he thought I should go ahead and request them.

Am I being too sensitive here? I hadn't been to the grocery store and our pantry is low so I had asked WH if he wanted me to cook dinner since he was going to his coworker's house. He said no, I tried to stop by the grocery store on my way home but DS wasnso cranky I figured I'd wait until later. WH got home with food for himself only. I of course was hungry since I hadn't had dinner nor lunch today. Little thoughtless things like that irritate me to no end. It made me so upset, I'm not sure if he will ever stop being so selfish.

I asked WH about what exactly is his concern with me seeing the emails and his response was that me reading word for word what he said to OW will not help us to move forward.

I responded to him "That's your opinion" and once again said that it WILL help me to know whether the emails will confirm what he has told me about their involvement and confirm that he ended contact with OW.

I told him that if the shoe was on the other foot I would willingly print off all of my emails and hand them over for him to read.

This was his response:
"It's not my opinion, it's real that if you see that I tell her she's attractive in emails it will not help us. It's just this simple, well not simple, actually it's hard b/c I adore DS more than anything in the world but if it goes to the point that you actually order emails and read through them, I see no reason we should even try to move forward. And as painful as it will be to do it, I'll just move out and whatever happens just happens. All those "questions" you have will not help you to forgive me or "move on" like you think they will.

And if the shoe is on the other foot, no I wouldn't want to know the details."

He still doesn't get it. I will let it go and leave it for our call with Steve on Friday.

I has still went ahead with the apartment app before I spoke with Steve. I did send in the request for the emails as Steve advised me yesterday. I guess it's good that I have the apt. so when WH finds out that I sent the request and if he wants to make good on his threat to split because of it I will have a place to go.

I'm begining to hate WH and I have lost so much respect for him that I'm wondering if this is even reparable. The fact that he doesn't want to be forthcoming with information doesn't help. I'm so hurt, angry, sad, and whatever else that I want to just crawl in a hole and die. I see my IC on Friday too btw, hopefully she can help me make sense of what has become my life.

If all that is in those emails is what he has already told you then how is it going to hurt you any further? You already have heard about it and been stung by that pain. Once again, it seems like WH has something else to hide. There must be something else in there he doesn't want you to read. So much so, that he is threatening to leave you if you proceed with the request. Seems like a last ditch desperate threat to try to keep you from the truth.

He's also full of crapola when he says that he wouldn't want to know if the shoe was on the other foot. Easy to say when it's not your reality to live.

Lack of empathy and wanting to comfort you through this is still concerning. I hope Steve can get thorugh to him soon or you will need that Plan B to preserve whatever love you have left and it sounds like that is dwindling.

Sorry for your pain RW!!! We are here for you!

((((RW))))

Next time, try "Sorry, but I do not agree. I am the sole authority on what's best for me."



I've learned to never try that approach with someone in a WS-state of mind. They will just twist it to their benefit, like he did.

I've been keeping my cool ever since I really learned what I was supposed to be doing in Plan A. I'm so upset right now that I don't think I can go home and fill this man's need for admiration or anything else. I've gotten really controlled with the AOs and better with SDs, am still learning on the DJs. I will avoid love busting but I don't think I'll be working to fill his love bank at all today.

I told WH that threatening to leave me is pretty serious business and that he will just have to take an hour off work to make the appt. Our appointment is moved to tomorrow morning. Which is good because I had already sent the letter and I want us to talk with Steve before WH finds out about it.

I'm really interested now to find out what he's hiding that he's willig to just walk away than to stay and deal with our issues.

I'm not a person who easily accepts defeat and I wonder if this is the only reason why I am fighting so hard for my marriage. I'm not sure I love him.

Thanks MiM, that's definitely a better way I could have responded to him.

I am trying to get caught up on your thread. A lot has happened!

I am 2+yrs into R and my H just tried to gaslight me about an O&H issue and trying to talk to him about it was like banging my head on a brick wall. Each conversation w/him was a drain on my LB$ because he was just so foggy in his thinking on that issue...he needed to hear it from a third party (SH). So I agree it's a good idea to just wait to see if Steve can get through to him.

Just remember you haven't done anything wrong here. I know when you are being gaslit it can really shake your confidence and make you question yourself. The issue is actually simple, your H needs to be 100% O&H about everything and that includes the past if he wants this Recovery to happen. That's your boundary, and the advice of the Harleys, the experts here.

Your H is lucky you are giving him a chance to pull his head out of his a$$. in the words of MrW, no matter what happens with your M, you WILL make it. Hang in there....

{{{{RW}}}}}

Thanks SusieQ. I shouldn't be surprised by anything that comes out of WH's mouth but I'm shocked that he's willing to leave over this.

I'm going to try and think about other things for the rest of the day.

I don't know that WH would actually leave over this. It is more likely that he is trying to manipulate you by scaring you in to thinking he might. Especially since he used your DS in it as well to try to tug at your heart strings.

I think that now you HAVE to see those records. It is now something that is going to bother you until you know for sure what is in those emails. It may be that he said some horrible things about you. He may have told her that she is the only person he truly loved, BLAH BLAH BLAH.

We know that WS's lie to BS but they also lie to OP. There isn't too many OP who would go along with, "I love my wife dearly and I will never leave her, but we can still knock boots." WH may think that what he said to her will get you super pissed but he doesn't realize that you already are.

About not being able to fill the ENs right now. Try. Really TRY. It is so hard, but remember that you have done all of this work and went through all of this pain and you don't want to regret not having done everything you possibly could have.

Thinking of you.

He's not willing to leave. He won't leave. He might if he's stubborn to the point of being stupid (which he might be, we all know someone that is), but my guess is that he is almost certainly trying to manipulate you and control you.

Think of exposure, and how the WS almost always says "That's it, I'm done. There is no way we can reconcile after what you did to me."

This sounds exactly the same to me. He knows he's about to be exposed and he's just reciting the script. Ignore him. It's all bluster and show.

Focus on your session w/Steve tomorrow and your serene Plan B just waiting for you. If all you can do is keep your LBs under control then do that. LBs are a lot more powerful than EN-meeting. You want to exit WH's life and enter your plan B as a goddess, not a hag. Sounds like PlanB can't come soon enough for you.

Thanks Scotland and turtle, I can't even wrap my mind around why he would threaten to leave over this. He said that he's not keeping secrets and that me seeing the details will not help us move forward.

The more he fights this the more I wonder what is in those emails. i have to try and find some peace because right now I don't even have any.

Sometimes the imagination can fill in the blanks with things that are much worse, and other times you couldn't even have imagined it.

Your WH is definitely gaslighting you on the emails for some reason that only he knows. He doesn't mean that the two of you won't be able to get past it, he believes that YOU won't be able to get past it.

Just stick to your plan, avoid those nasty LB's and plan for your eventual Plan B if SH suggests it.

I told WH that I mailed off the request for the records. His response was "well do what you want, have fun reading emails to my sis, brother, and whatever else." He knows good and well that what I want to see are his emails to OW. I was told that it shouldn't make a difference whether he goes through and deletes all of his emails since everything is back up on the server.

Good for you. He might get even more unbearable in the next few days, knowing that the other shoe is going to drop.

Or he might come clean, like many do knowing a polygraph is looming.

Just roll with whatever happens, stick to your plan A, and conduct yourself with dignity. You are doing amazingly well.

Thanks turtlehead.

WH just sent me another emails that said "If I leave I will let you know when. I don't want DS to have to leave from where he is comfortable" He keeps mentioning that I want to read every email that he has ever sent to anyone.

I sent the request for any and all emails because I only know of one for sure email address for OW. I asked WH once whether he sent emails to any other account (i.e. her work) and he said no. I don't trust that he'd tell the truth about that.

I have a feeling that I should just ignore everything he says for the next few days.

I'm in tears right now as I write this. I've decided to just move out and start a life on my own. I know it's only been a few weeks in Plan A but, I've endured enough emotional pain and abuse from WH at this point. I've felt emotionally abandoned for the past couple years and have been trying to stay strong through the MB program but I have just had enough.

So sorry to hear of this development RW. What happened? When you say you are moving out are you going into Plan B? I think you should go to Plan B and give him the Plan B letter that you put together and Turtle edited.

Mindshare

I am sorry to hear this but not all that surprised. He's treating you horribly, you have a place to go to. I agree with mindshare that Plan B is a good idea. You can always reconcile or divorce later. You need a break right now. You don't need to be making big decisions.

Also, realize that you're crying for what *might have been* not for what WH is right now. I think after a while in Plan B you'll feel ten times better.

Does your Mom understand what the job of intermediary is? Can she do it? She is pretty involved emotionally. She may not be able to distance herself and filter out all the noise and only pass on the necessary information. Can she do that? Can she refrain from LBing your WH? Can she refrain from counseling you?

If not, you can still use her for a few days until you find someone else.

Do you have the link for ML's Intermediary Training School, RW?

It is really important for the IM to be neutral and to filter the information ~ I think ML says in that thread that she only conveys a very small percentage of what the WS asks her to pass along. I agree it may be difficult for your mom...but maybe after she learns more about her role, she can better decide. LMK if you need the link, I can find it for you.

Hang in there!

I gave WH the Plan B letter. All week he has been ignoring me at home. He would keep badering me telling me that I do not want to recover since I am wanting to know information from 2 years ago. and etc. I know he was just rying to intimidate me from requesting and reading the emails. But, I just couldn't take any more. Yesterday afternoon he started ignoring my emails. At that point I had enough of being treated as if I'm not of importance to him. I've learned how to control my AOs and etc. the past few weeks and I didn't think I could keep going with it having to face him every day and have him ignore me. It really hurts when my son would be sitting right next to me and WH would interact with him and act as if I wasn't there at all.

WH says that he isn't going to pass message thru anyone, that he's going to talk to me directly. I told him that I will not respond to his calls or text messages. He sent me a few yesterday and I didn't even read them.

My friend that would be great at being my IM is pregnant and due to have a baby next week so I won't add that stress to her life. I'm going to have my sister be my IM and point her to the thread SusieQ mentioned. I believe that I do have the link saved.

You will need to put up a strong fortress to ensure total blackness with your WH. He sounds stubborn and like he's accustomed to getting his way.

If you can, block his phone number from your cell and put a rule in your email that auto-replies with your Plan B letter and deletes his email so you never see it.

If WH texts you, change cellphone numbers if you can't block his from texting yours. I've seen lots of people go into Plan B seemingly committed and then break down when they get texts and "just have" to read them. The Plan B disintegrates and things pretty much self destruct at that point. It's very stressful for the WS. So if you can do anything to avoid ever seeing his texts, take steps now to ensure you have that protection in place.

Plan B is going to be good for you. Your WH needs a lot of time to deal with himself instead of projecting all his anger and blame onto you.

Good advice turtle. I was slow to act on doing the auto replies and auto deletion of his emails. He's already sent two of them to me...

Hey RW!

Turtle is exactly right. You cannot let his messages get through to you unfiltered. They must go through the IM. Otherwise, you are not truly in Plan B. If it means blocking his number from calling/texting then call your carrier and do it. If it means blocking his emails then do it. It takes discipline on your part to remain in Plan B but you can do it. This is an opportunity for you to take a break from the abuse of WH. If he is still reaching you through messaging of some kind then you aren't truly getting that break that you need. Remember, the goal is to preserve the remaining love that you have for WH before it's completely gone.

Mindshare

RW, has your sister sent the first email yet telling your H she will serve as IM and to pass communications through her?

I was an IM for all of one day and I had spoken to a vet here on the board about it. I was told the WS would freak out and, boy, did he ever...get her that info ASAP so she is ready. Ex., if he sends her a nasty email telling her forget it, he isn't using her, etc, she should not even tell you she heard from him.

He WILL NOT like your Plan B, and like the other have said, he will try to get through ~ so think of every single way he may try to contact or see you and get yourself ready.

BTW, I think you are REALLY strong {{RW}}

My sister does not have access to her email at work. She will have to send him an email this evening when she arrives at home.

I'm thinking he will try and use my son to get through to me. My in-laws are distraught over the fact that I'm moving out and want to sit down and talk with us tomorrow. Should I offer to speak to them sepearately?

I added to my auto reply that all messages will be instantly deleted so WH will get the picture. He's fully intent on talking to me when, where and by what ever means he wants to.

I went online and could not find a way to block him from my cellphone. I will call our carrier today. We are on a family plan so if I changed my number he could log on and see what I changed it to.

My apt. won't be ready until the 15th. I'm not sure if I should just let me DS stay wtih WH until I get my place and I sleep on family's couch or take DS with me? WH takes really good care of DS so that won't be a problem.

RW,

I see absolutely no problem speaking with the IL's but you must do it separately. Explain to them that it is too painful for you to be around WH right now and you are doing this to preserve the remaining love that you have for him before it turns to hate. You need to be able to tell IL's how WH has caused you tremendous pain and how he is not willing to do the things necessary to try to save your family. Hopefully, they can apply some pressure to him.

Call your cell carrier and explain your situation. Tell them that you want to block calls and texts from WH's number. I'm pretty sure you can do that so check with them.

If the apt won't be ready until the 15th then you should probably split DS's time between you and WH assuming that you trust him to properly care for DS.

Does WH know where you are currently staying? Don't let him know where the apt is located.

You are a strong young woman RW! This is hard stuff but I'm confident you can do it.

Mindshare

Thanks Mindshare. I'm def removing my mom as IM. My sis will do a better job. WH contacted my mom by email this afternoon for silly reasons. He wanted to ask who is picking up DS and to see how we will split the bills for March. I have already emailed my sis with the money info earlier this morning before I knew she went in to work early. So he will get that information to his email later this evening. My mom called me to tell me that WH had contacted her and wanted to know who was to pick the baby up. I told her that was not an emergency and that WH was trying to play dumb.

He just sent me a txt... I can't wait until I'm off work and can handle things like I want to.

You all are psychic! lol

WH has been trying to contact me all day. When I am off work I will call the cell carrier and get them to block his number for me. After getting the response from my IM that she isn't going to pass me that flimsy message (though she did) then he started trying to contact me.

One of the things that would bother me about WH and I is that he didn't take me seriously all the time. I guess he didn't really need to since I was always willing to flex my boundaries for him. I know for a fact that right now he doesn't believe that I can withhold my commitment to NC with him until he's done the things outlined in the letter.

And just as I thought his excuse to talk to me is DS. Though if he were truly concerned about who's picking him up (which I am scheduled to do so) then he would call our dayc are provider and ask them if DS was still there when he got off work. I get off work earlier than WH and would be there in time to pick DS up before WH even gets off work.

RW,

This is perfectly normal. I would be surprised if WH wasn't trying to break through to contact you. You are doing well. It's important that you get your sister up to speed on being the IM and get her to start running interference for you.

As for who is picking up the kid and how bills are paid, those are day to day things that do need to be worked out so no problem with him asking those things as long as he asks the IM and your response goes through the IM. I'm sure he will continue to try to use your DS as a means to make contact with you.

You are doing great so far!

Mindshare

Understood, if I had known that my sis was going in to work early I would have given her the info about bills and etc. so that she could have sent it to him last night. though I'm sure he would have just come up with a different excuse as to what to call about.

Mind you today he has made just about the more telephone calls, emails, texts to me than he has in the past two years.

Oh, and thank you for the support! I was getting hopeless a couple days ago

No problem. We are here for you RW. I still have hope that this will all work out for you. Wait... scratch that. I know this will all work out for you. You are going to be fine with or without WH. Keep proving him wrong about your boundaries and your resolve to hold true to them.

Also, while you are in Plan B focus on you! Eat well, get some exercise, go to the salon, etc. Try to spend time with friends and family when DS is with WH. Taking care of yourself and keeping up your strengh is very important during Plan B.

Does she have a copy of the Plan B letter?
She needs to keep her judgments and emotions out of this too.
I know, it's hard hard hard because she cares for you.
It would be best if she responds to his "Who's going to pick up DS?" type inquiries with just a copy of the Plan B letter and no further comments or embellishments. It's spelled out nicely in there.

You totally rock, did you know that?
You were strong before but now that you're in Plan B you are... well, words fail me! You're amazing!

See? You're way ahead of me.
Like I said, you totally rock at this.

Hey RW! How are you doing today? Did you get everything squared away with your sis to be your IM? Did you get calls, texts, emails blocked so you can stay dark in your Plan B?

Hi mindshare. I'm ok today. Today apparently WH agreed to all the terms I put in the plan b letter. He's going to start back reading SAA this weekend, I emailed him the questions I had. For the first time he did not say he can't remember. That was a total shock.

OW sent an email to WH and I joint acct. He read it and immediately told me that she sent it. I told him to just delete it. Later I went back and permanently deleted it and asked him next time to delete it immediately without reading it.

OW parents finally got the exposure letter in the mail. And now that we left the church ppl are apparently circling back to her to ask what the deal is. She's apparently been throwing WH under the bus saying the emotional attachment was on his side only.

I will say I too am guilty of reading the msg she sent. I wasn't going to at first but, since WH read it I wanted to kno what it actually said. She apparently is worried that I ruined her reputation. The msg was filled with lies. she said she never had any romantic feelings for WH nor will she ever. In it she also claimed She would have never befriended him if she knew it was causing marital problems. I stopped reading it after the first paragraph but noticed a section where she had advice to us that we should fix our problems. Thanks for the enlightenment OW.

I think WH feel embarrassed now to find out he's been thrown under the bus.

I had an appt yesterday with my IC which came right on time after the week I had. After getting the answers to my questions I have resolved that I was not going to let my thoughts be consumed by WH's EA.

Last night I took DS with me to have dinner at a friend's house. She has a little girl around the same age as my DS. I was glad to get a chance to get out of the house and just relax.

One of the shortest Plan B's ever RW. I had a feeling he wouldn't last long.

Make him earn it. Set the bar high and keep it there. Stick to your boundaries. This is a very positive development and I have great hope for you guys but you cannot let down your guard at all right now.

Continue your MB work. Identify each others EN's and work on meeting them. Make sure your WH is doing the work also. If he is really on board he should be carrying at least half of the load (if not more) at this point.

As for email from OW, please block it. Block her email address from your account or get rid of your account all together and start a new one. Neither one of you should hear from her ever again. NC as you know is crucial to your marital recovery.

Mindshare

Ditto what mindshare said.

Set the bar high - active GPS on WH's phone and car. Block OW's phone, emails, everything you can think of. Change phone numbers if you have to.

Be vigilant.

I'm very hopeful, especially since OW is throwing WH under the bus. That is awesome.

I thought that was quick too. I was thinking I'd get lots of practice at sticking to my guns with plan b.

I do have a GPS tracker on his phone and will work on getting the one fir his car. Thanks for warning me about letting my guard down and to set the bar high.

When you say that WH should be pulling more than half the load what do you mean? I'm soft natured so I will have to work hard at being sure I stick to my boundaries and keeping the bar high.

Going to block OW emails now...

You're doing GREAT !

What I mean is that if WH is serious about recovering your marriage and making it better then ever then he should be willing to do the MB work along with you. He should be trying to meet your EN's. He should no longer deny that he had an affair. He should be absolutely transparent with you. He should be open and honest. He should truthfully answer any questions you have without getting upset with you. Basically, he should be showing you through his ACTIONS that he is committed to you and to the recovery of your marriage. That's what setting the bar high is about.

You should get right back into a few sessions with Steve Harley now that WH has hopefully turned a corner.

Mindshare

Print out what mindshare wrote and keep it in your pocket so you can refer back to it and remind yourself of how things SHOULD be.

Don't settle for crumbs here.
Lay the groundwork so this (recovery) can be done RIGHT.

I emailed myself mindshare's post and will print it out today. I'll keep a copy in my phone too so that I can have it on me where ever I am.

Thanks all, I appreciate your support.

WH is supposed to call on Monday and schedule an appt. for us with Steve.

How's things at ranchero RedsWife?

It's quiet around here right now. We have to wait until next week for our call with Steve due to $.

WH has been like a new man the past few days. He's even been planning activities for us to do to spend time together. He does need help in ways he can meet my emotional needs. I believe this is what Steve has planned for us to talk about during our next call. our last assignment was to send him the EN and LB questionaires we filled out.

I'm still working to meet his ENs and snooping of course.

I'm thankful to have peace in my home right now but, of course I am still having a watchful eye on WH's actions.

Thanks for checking on us!

Any suggestions on how to curb DJs? I've been working at it and have corrected my thought pattern that leads to some DJs that were blatantly obvious to me once I realized what DJs were.

I really want to work on this because now I realized I do this not only to WH (which of course is bad) but also to family, friends and even people that I don't know.

ETA: WH's top EN is admiration. Is there any harm to ocassionaly repeating (in a different way) something I've said before. For instance the fact that I appreciate he's a hard working guy? I'm running out of ideas and am assuming that as our love for each other grows it will be easier to "admire" him.

Think before speaking...

"Is what I am about to say kind? Cruel? Neutral?"

Then, make a choice to be one of these things.

Funny, so simple yet profound! Thanks Pepperband

I've always said I'm not a judgemental person but,now that I've started listening to what actually comes out of my mouth I disagree.

When you are trying to build up and restore a marriage relationship ... it's a good idea to have a roll of duct tape handy .... or, at least it was for me

RW, I am glad to hear about this turn of events for you.

DJs, statements where you are telling your H what he "should" do are DJs. Once Jennifer told me that, oops, I realized I did it ALL the time! Any time you think you "know better" than H, watch out, a DJ is nearby...

I read a post by JustLearning soon after I got here that talked about how he noticed a lot of As began by the OW "crying" on the WHs shoulder about problems...how this is meeting the EN of admiration and how the EN of admiration is much more complex than giving compliments. It was a big a-ha moment for me because this was exactly what had happened w/my H and his OW.

So I realized that I had become dependent on my sisters and close friends when I had something I wanted to discuss. I really try to turn to WH now for issues (work related & personal) and am respectful in listening to his thoughts and feedback. Also every day I ask him about work and really try to listen and ask follow up questions without any DJs. I also let him "explain" or "teach" stuff to me. This is a great way to meet the EN for admiration, anything he may be interested in, hobbies, work, etc.

HTH!

SusieQ, that's a great observation.

I was going to reply to RW saying that one good way to avoid DJs is to ask instead of tell. Statements like "You'll think I'm silly but I want that pair of shoes" or "You won't like this but it looks like we're getting more rain" or even "This is the greatest dessert, you'll love it!" are all DJs that can be re-phrased as questions.

As Pep said, think about what's going to come out of your mouth before you let fly. Even if it means bizarre pauses in conversation while you practice and get better at this.

Then rephrase things into questions and solications for input when you can. "Wow, I love this dessert! What do you think?" Then you can continue along that line of discussion and provide admiration as SusieQ said (I never would have thought of that but she's right). If he likes the dessert (or if he doesn't), ask why. Discuss the use of cinnamon or vanilla or whatever he mentions as a plus or minus. When you ask his opinion, or solicit input from him, then pursue that, he will feel admired and valued.

Do you realize how wonderful you are for being able to do this?

How are you doing RW? How is WH behaving? Are you keeping that bar high?

Hi Mindshare! I'm doing okay, things just feel weird right now. WH is being transparent, open and honest with me. Which is what I've always wanted but, now it just feels kinda weird. I'm not sure how to explain it and hope that no one takes this as complaining. I'm keeping a watchful eye on his actions and I am working at keeping the bar high.

We will have a call with Steve next week. I'm looking forward to this, since I believe we'll be discussing our EN and LB questionaires and how to meet each others' ENs.

Thanks SusieQ and turtlehead for the suggestions on DJs. Yesterday in conversation I had an opportunity to have WH explain/teach me something and he seemed to have enjoyed that. I've also begun reminding myself to ask instead of tell.

To sum things up I am taking things day by day.

Over the weekend we were cleaning out some stuff and I stumbled upon some of our wedding pictures. I oddly never got many printed and there aren't any hanging in our home. Seeing the pictures made me sad because I now know that it was all just a fantasy. Thoughts came rushing to me like, WH says that he was never "in-love" with me and never had any romantic feelings for me. I now know that "our love" wasn't stronger than anything and that our bond has been broken.

On our wedding day I believed that our love could withstand temptation of an A (we all did I'm sure). Now I know it wasn't true.

Are these feelings normal?

I have many of the same feelings, RW. When The Leopard was moving out she asked to keep the wedding album and a montage of pictures taken on our wedding day. At first I agreed, but then as she got nastier, more venal and petty as the day wore on, I just spirited these items away out of sight. I still have them (why I keep them, I don't know -- I'll dispose of them after the D, I guess).

She's in an active A with a married man and wanted the pictures from our wedding??? WTF? It's bad enough that she took things that she'll never again use, but after driving a stake through the heart of the M, she wanted something to denote her victory over it? Makes no sense.

Some of it is the rewriting of the history of the relationship, but the truth is that (at least for me), the marriage was the fantasy, not the other way around. I am recovering through Plan B/D and know that no matter what happens with her in the future, I am better off without her in my life.

So, in answer to your question, I think these feelings are not only normal, but they're expected.

Thanks Fred, good to know that I'm somewhat normal. Lol

New development in our story. WH doesn't want to finish reading SAA. He seems to think that there isn't anything he can get from the book.

I feel like if he doesn't read it then I will be responsible for telling him what the steps of the MB program are and etc. I'm really sick of this on the bus off the bus stuff. Either he wants to work the program or he wants to move on with out me.


I'm angry and frustrated right now...

I'm still snooping and there haven't been any signs of contact with OW.

I'm sorry, RW. It seems the BS is always the one who has to do the heavy lifting. And in many cases it just results in back pain and a broken heart.

I have backed away from posting a lot on this site, as I don't know that I have a lot to offer these days. I believe in MB and the principles put forth here, but I don't know that I'm in any way as good a spokesperson for them as some of the more experienced folks who have worked it.

Since going to Plan B shortly after finding this site, contact with WW has been virtually non-existent. She has not tried to seek me out, and the only boundary she has violated is by not going through the IM as requested.

She has apparently moved on, is still anticipating her 5th marriage (to OM) and has nearly completed re-inventing herself (from the little my DD has told me about WW's Facebook "makeover").

The plus side (and I consider it a *major* plus) is that I'm now traveling to places I want to go, am doing things I want to do, and since I don't have the burden of supporting someone who is incapable of paying her own bills, am poised to make a donation to my favorite organization that will wind up getting my name on a plaque as one of the "founding supporters."

No no no. :::stamping foot::: Fred, you may not be in R, but you GET IT. You GET MB principles and can speak intelligently about them. I have read so many of your posts, and you're a fount of wisdom and support for this site. You're input is valuable - I don't want to hear this business of you not posting here anymore! :::hands over ears, humming loudly:::

I have a feeling that Fred is feeling a little FUNKY right now. I have seen him posting a bit here and there.

Fred- you know this stuff and you offer some insight into people's sitchs. You never know when you will help someone by saying something that noone else hasn't said, or saying it in a different way that sets off a light bulb. I have seen it.

RW-Of course your feelings are normal, YOU are normal. Keep venting here and asking for help. You are doing fine.

It does not matter.
From your Plan B letter:
* Maintain no contact with OW for life
* Finish reading SAA
* Admittance that you were involved in an emotional affair
* Full confession with a willingness to answer any questions I may have that will help "fill- in" the details.
* Willingness to be transparent in providing full disclosure of all email and phone accounts along with disclosing the passwords to each account.

Personally I think he's going to do just barely enough to appease you and he's not serious about this marriage yet.

Do you still have the apartment available? If you do, I would put some key things in boxes and put them in the garage under the guise of "cleaning out the closets" or "spring cleaning" or something like that.

Bring up SAA again and if he says he doesn't want to read it, move yourself and your child to your apartment. Leave the Plan B letter on the kitchen table with a note that says "when you're serious about this, let IM know"

RW,

Sorry to hear about this development.

I agree completely with Turtle. You need to ask him one more time to finish reading SAA. Don't threaten to leave. Don't try to extort him into it. Just ask him to read it. If he refuses then he is NOT complying with your requirements for ending Plan B and you should move to that apartment.

Unfortunately, it sounds like WH just said he would do whatever you want to get you to come back. He doesn't think you will leave again so he is going back to coasting along again.

You deserve to be in a great marriage with a man that is vested in you and wants the same things. Keep that bar high! You've shown your strenght many times already. You have in in you to do this.

Mindshare

Thanks turtle and Mindshare. I was feeling the same as you both feel in terms of WH trying to do as little as possible to apepase me. I hadn't yet mentioned to him that he needs to finish reading the book since he hasn't yet stopped reading it. He just said that he doesn't see the point. I think he even took it to work with him to maybe read on his lunch break? I will reiterate to him that it's part of the conditions in which I will continue to work with him to R the M.

I would still be able to move to that apartment in a moment's notice.

I did tell him that coasting along is not acceptable and that he needs to be an active participant in this M now and forever in the future. I am not going back to status quo, I hated it then and now that I have learned that we can actually build a strong M that's what I want and I won't settle for less.

In other news...anyone have tips on how to get a 1.5 yr old to stop throwing tantrums?!

RW- I hope I can stick to my guns if I ever get that chance. Reading SAA is only PART of my list for WH to agree with to come home. I figure that he doesn't have to agree with all of the things in the book at first but it will probably go a long way in convincing WH that recovery IS POSSIBLE. That's all that I expect out of it, AT FIRST. It must be different reading SAA as a WS than a BS though. I wonder if there are and FWS who could chime in on this for US.

As far as dealing with a 1.5 year old's tantrums, as I have been dealing with this WH of mine, I realized that the advice given about WS's and children are almost the same. You have to set up boundaries and not back down. When the child crosses those boundaries, you should give them consequences to those actions. There are times when you should Plan A them. DON'T forget, there is a CARROT and a STICK. As they become grown ups there may be time to Plan B them too(although I don't ever want to do that). It's what has been helping me understand how to deal with a WH.

It has to be so difficult to deal with a 1.5 year old and have to be going through this as well.

BTW, I took a positive parenting course offered through Early Years(it is a program for parents of children 0-6 years old). You could google positive parenting and there is a TONNE of stuff there for you to look at. It makes a lot of sense. It is kinda like the way MB is for M.

I hope this helps.

Scotland I hope my WH gets the same as you want your WH to one day get from reading SAA. To know that recovery is possible and that our M doesn't have to go back to the way it was.

I've stated before in my thread that I am such a softie so DS has gotten spoiled over the past couple months. Thanks for the advice. I can see where I need to place some boundaries for him and how I don't always stick to them.

Off to google the positive parenting course now...thanks!

I really like that you have that apartment on standby. Hope you don't need it but I'm SO glad it's still available in case you do.



Perfect.

I personally think 1.5 year olds have temper tantrums because they have desires, likes, and dislikes but no vocabulary yet to express themselves. I just ignored mine and honestly they only ever had a couple. If you're at home just leave the room and let them work out the frustration. If you're in public just blush and get out with as much dignity as you can.

Don't buy them a toy or something that would reward the tantrum, but at 1.5 there's no point in punishing it either. It's just life.

Make sure your child is getting enough sleep and that they have a fairly regular schedule. That helps a lot.

I do try and keep him on a regular schedule because he's a cranky pot if I don't. I hadn't fully thought about the fact that he knows what he wants and isn't full able to express it right now.

I'm always so nervous when we are out in public because I don't want him to have a total breakdown over something. I haven't bought any toys or etc. but that's mainly because I'm cheap. lol

Thanks for the advice!

WH likes to go to his friend's house to play a football game. The last time he went I told him it was IB that I didn't like because he made the decision on his own as to when he was going and how long he would stay and etc.

Today he asked me whether I would agree to him going on an agreed upon day and staying for an agreed upon time. My response to him was that I am not totally against him going to his friend's house however; I believe that we should first have a plan in place as to how we will spend UA time together and THEN schedule in time for us to do things independently.

I figure he's a man that always like to have a plan and that we should plan the UA time until it feels more natural for us to be spending time together.

Did I handle this correctly?

POJA is not a matter of your being "not totally against" his plans, POJA is a matter of your enthusiastic agreement.

Introduce the concept of BOTH spouses needing to have enthusiasm regarding the decision.

Brainstorm with H until you discover a solution where you are both enthusiastic.
If you cannot, make a Harley appointment.

Thanks Pep. We are going to talk about it this evening.

I have worked as a behavior consultant before and still do a lot of that now in my student teaching (middle school kids) and music therapy job. One of the biggest things is consistency and follow through. If you are inconsistent with what you do and don't follow through on what you say, things can't get any better. Also, with my own children, I gave them permission to have their temper tantrums when appropriate. I would tell them that they can come see me when they are done and I show no frustration or emotion. Get down to their level as best you can when talking with them and limit the amount of verbalization.

As far as in public, my DS had a temper tantrum in the middle of the mall one day and I told him to go ahead and to let me know when he is done. I had no reaction to what was going on with him, matter of fact, and did not give him what he wanted as far as the attention or something like that. (HMMMM...sounds a lot like not giving my WH the anger/aggravation/etc. that he is wanting). Obviously, you don't leave your child alone if or allow them to continue with their behavior if they could get injured.

When it is over, talk (limited) with them and try to figure out what they wanted. Behaviors are usually a form of communication (wanting to get something or get out of something). Letting them know expectations and being consistent are so important to all of it and then letting go of what happened afterwards.

Hope this helps!!

Very helpful thanks prayerful!

Today is just a down day for me, I'm crying for no reason. I feel isolated and alone though I'm sure I'm not. Days like this I wonder why I'm choosing to stay and work on our M rather than just leave.

You are not alone RW!! You've always got your cyber MB friends..... {{{{{{RW}}}}}}

Do you feel this way often? If so, have you considered talking to your doc about AD's for a temporary period of time to help you through this? I've never taken AD's but from what I've read here they do seem to help alot of people.

RW- I agree with MS. I KNOW that when/if WH comes home, I am going to need some AD's for sure. Plan A was so hard to pull off the first time. I felt like I was losing my MIND. I get little tugs every once in a while in Plan B but not like the almost constant turmoil I was in before.

Let yourself cry for a bit and then go do something for you that has nothing to do with R. Like maybe go for a walk, or turn some music on and dance around the house. Something physical to get the heebee geebees out.

Thanks for the support MS and Scotland. I saw IC yesterday. No ADs as getting regular exercise usually helps me.

WH has been trying to make it a team effort to get exercise the last couple days. He also made our next appt with SH. Overall I'm meeing his ENs to he best of my ability ad waiting on our meeting with SH to find out how to best guide him in what is needed to meet some of mine. I can tell he's trying though. That's a positive change. He seems to appreciate the positive changes that i've made for myself too.

Nice!

Hey RW! How are you doing? Hope things are going great!

Hi MS! We are doing okay. Spending time together, trying to meet each other's ENs.

WH has started emailing me a bit more while at work to just chit chat. Even if I am busy I take a minute to make myself available to chat with him. When I started at this job I really put the lid on WH emailing me all day. I now see that wasn't a good thing.

DS will be spending the night with his grandmother tomorrow night. We hadn't planned what we will do yet.

I'm still keeping a close eye on his actions rather than his words. After I made it clear that I won't accept having him just do the bare minimum to appease me he rally stepped it up. I appreciate having my MB folks remind me to keep the bar high.

I'll update again soon

Our assignment from Steve was to plan out our 15 hours UA this week. That was pretty difficult. We've been spending more time together but haven't actually pre-planned the entire week at a time.

We set aside a couple times to just talk and share our thoughts and feelings with each other. WH suggested it, I'm guessing because he now knows that this helps to meet my need for O&H. As crazy as it sounds I'm anxious about it. We still don't "know" each other all that well. Sad to say about your spouse but it's true for now at least. Up until now we've had conversations mainly about current events, our family,DS, planning fun activites, basketball. Mainly we just talk about general stuff.

Anyone who's BTDT please provide hepful hints or any of your input for this stage of the game.

I've been snooping and still no signs of contact from what I can tell. I have someone at his job who's my spy for any suspicious activity.

Checking in, sometimes I feel like WH and I are in a cocoon. We've been spending as much time as possible together. We do need to get better at actually tracking the time to make sure it's at least 15 hours of UA.

Last week wasn't a good week as I just felt hopeless about the future of our M. I think it had to do with WH slacking up on his efforts to meet my ENs(we talked about this and it has gotten better). I admit if I don't watch it, sometimes it's easy to slip into our old "normal".I think it's time to go back and re-read some of the articles on the site. I also just started reading FIL SIL. WH is slowly but surely reading SAA.

Thanks to all who has said encouraging words and pointed me in the right direction in the first few days when I couldn't even think straight. I will forever be so grateful for that.

All in all I just keep reminding myself that it's a marathon not a sprint and that I have to set and keep the bar high for WH.

He's supposed to be working on creating his EPs for SH. They are working on it together before WH presents them to me.

RW,
Thanks for the update. I think you're doing really, really well. WH is continuing to work with SH and that is the best you could possibly ask for.

I also think it's good that you see how easy it is to slip into the old "normal" and that you are taking actions to prevent that.

It's so clich�... "It's a marathon, not a sprint". But you know what? That's how clich�s become clich�s -- there's so much truth to them that they get repeated non-stop. From where I sit it looks like you are doing really, really well. Yeah, I know, I said that already

RW- I want to say WOW. Not just about how well you are doing but also because of the help you were giving to the newbies today. You were spot on. Great job. It shows how much you understand. I agree it is good to re-read what DrH has written. It helps us remember more. You are leap and bounds away from where you started.

Thanks turtle and Scotty, this is the most difficult process I have been through.

Here's my update for the week.

WH and I have been trying to do more fun things together. Our DS was at grandma's this weekend so that helped us to be able to do more things and talk a little more.

Right now I'm not feeling really confident about things just because it seems that my WH isn't opening up to me. He makes more of an effort to talk with me but, to me it's more of mindless chatter. I feel like I don't walk away from the convo feeling that I learned more about him or that I have an understanding on what he's thinking and feeling. I guess the part that I feel I do not know what he's thinking and feeling (about anything) really doesn't sit well with me. I'm not sure how to address the way I feel. Times like this I just feel like it's hopeless that we will ever have a fulfilling marriage in that we both are happy.

In our interactions WH has said "I love you" a couple times and I do not know how to respond to this as I feel like I would be lying if I said I love you too. Deep down I know that I love him but sometimes I question if I'm making a mistake and wasting both of our time by trying to R our M.

After writing this I feel like such a confused and ungrateful person. I know Wh is making an effort to complete the assignments given to him by SH. I also know that others would probably love the opportunity to try and meet their WH's EN's and etc. I know WH is cooperating but, I feel like he could be more aggressive at following the MB program. I feel like I am the driver and he's in the backseat just going along and I hate feeling this way.

In a nutshell I'm not sure how I feel

I had to post and run earlier, osrry about that. I wanted to get some feedback on whether the way I'm feeling is normal. After wanting to fight for my marriage I'm now not opposed to walking away from it all.

How do I asess whether my WH has a had change in his thinking toward firendships with the opposite sex & radical honesty? I feel like if I ask these questions he can give me the right answers but I have no way of telling if he truly has a new way of thinking. These are questions I ask myself daily and they make me question if I made the right decision to stay and R the M.

Today is just a bad day all around. I've been thinking so negatively. Am I expecting too much too soon? Any way hopefully this post made some sense.

Hey RW!

Sorry you are having a down day! Hang in there!!

I think your feelings are completely normal. Of course you are going to question whether your WH's thoughts and actions are real. That is perfectly normal and part of the process. Recovery is a roller coaster ride for sure. Right now you are down at the bottom of one of those hills. You'll be on your way up again soon. Just keep your seat belt on and hold on tight.

It's entirely possible that your WH is just saying what he thinks you want to hear at this eary stage. What is important are his actions. Is he working on recovery? Is he attempting to learn the MB concepts? Is he continunig to work with SH? If so, then give it some more time.

Remember, marathon....not sprint.....

Agree with mindshare. You'll be enthusiastic some days and defeated other days.


By listening to him. You'll see scenes in movies or TV shows and he'll make a comment about what a dolt the guy is to get himself into that kind of a predicament, or what an insecure control freak the girl is for smothering him from his "friends".

He'll mention something a gal at work said and you'll figure out this was a lunch conversation. You can ask who all went and then call one of the others to verify.

It's "just" a matter of time. It takes time to learn new behaviors, time to turn them into habits, and time to trust that things are different now.

It's been a while since I checked in and provided an update. I started a new position at work recently so that has kept me busy!

As expected some days I am hopeful, happy and excited to be R the M. Other days I feel like leaving and never coming back. I worked on releasing fear of losing WH in the begining of this process and now I am afraid that I will get hurt again. I'm not sure what to do about that.

WH and I have been spending time together. We recently interviewed someone to babysit DS so that we can go out alone more often. For now we just have to get creative about what we do and when we do it.

Overall there's a ton of work still to be done but we are slowly making progress. WH plans more activites for us to do and is working to meet my ENs the way I've told him I want them met. I am doing the same for him. I'm not 100% sure we'll make it and I think that's just because when we first married I thought we would and now my reality has changed. Nothing is promised.

It's been a while since I've checked in. Hello to turtlehead, mindshare, Scotland, SuzieQ and all others who have given me encouragement and advice along the way!

WH and I have been slowly R our M. I'm happy to see a change in him, and he has responded well to the changes that I have made. I have noticed that it does become easy to slip into old ways. I alsonotice that if we do not spend at least 15 hrs. UA then I do not feel as connected to WH. WH now suggests activities for us to do together rather than have me plan everything. It's definitely a breath of fresh air.

I still snoop just not as much as before. WH has given me all of his passwords, I have free access to his cell phone and etc. which was part of the plan B letter.

We have not yet joined a new church but we are still visiting around. I had heard about a month ago that OW has stopped going to our old church. Someone told me that she was embarassed that I muddied her reputation...not sure how I did that since I just exposed the truth!

I will say to anyone who is skeptical that exposure works. I do not think that my WH would have started coming out of the fog with out having his little secret exposed. He knows that all of our firends and family know and that they will let me know if they see or hear anything that suggests that he's not on the up and up. Also it gave our friends and family a chance to support us through a tough time.

It's a learning process and we still have work to do. We are working toward having a fantastic M. We aren't there yet but I am confident that if we both continue to do our part that we can achieve this goal.

To all that are struggling through an A right now. My piece of advice is to stick to the MB plan, and not to deviate and start adding in your own things.

I pray everyone is doing well. I will try to catch up again later.

RW, Great news and thanx for checking in. I am happy for you in figuring out all of the MB ways and how to apply them in everyday life.

Great news RW! Thanks for the update!! Just remember, trust but verify. Sounds like you are on the path towards a good recovery and a great marriage. Keep making him accountable and keep working the MB principles. You will do great!

Don't be such a stranger around here! Come back and help the rest of us pay it forward....

Checking in again. R has been going well. I'm so thankful to have found MB. WH has expressed how hurt & sorry he is for the level of pain that his EA caused. He has started HNHN without my prompting. I will read it once he is done.

I hope everyone is doing well. I will try and come back more often to help others and keep myself on my toes.

Thanks for the update, Reds! Happy to hear things are going well

Hey RW! So good to hear from you and hear your positive update! That's great news! You shouldn't give up hanging around her ya know.... Still plenty of lessons to learn...

Thanks SusieQ and mindshare!

Yes, definitely, there are plenty lesson I need to learn :-) It's a daily struggle still for me to work on DJs and asking rather than telling. I am doing much better than I was but I want to be doing even better in this area.

I have a question about what kind of personal recovery a WS goes through? We are both working on R the M by following the MB plan. I am healing from the hurt and etc. I just want to understand H's side of the fence since he has made an effort to do that for me. I plan to talk with him about this of course but wanted to get input from others about what's going on in the WS's mind while they are coming out of the trenches of the A.

I miss hanging around with everyone here, I'm thankful for my new job but it has severly cut down the amount of time that I spend on the net