I really need your help. My wife is love with another man she works with and they have only met in person 2 times 1 of which were sexual. She has commited adultry and I have already forgiven her for that.
The man she was with is also married with 2 kids the same age as mine a 4 year old and a 2 year old. My wife is upset because he hasn't contacted her or talked to her after I found out about them and I told his wife what happened as well.
I love my wife so much and I still want to work things out even after what she did because I wasn't the best husband in the passed either. I was always on the computer, I was very critisizing and rude to her, it wasn't until it was to late that I realized how much I really loved her.
In 9 days she is going to let me know if she is willing to give our marriage a 6 month probation period in which we both try very hard to make things work. She has told me the usual "I love you but am not in love with you" I want her to fall in love with me again but I don't know what to do. i have turned to God and I keep praying God will change her heart.
She is the only 1 working because I am in school full time, I do not want to lose her, but she is still waiting to hear from him though she says she is not basing her decision on what he wants.
Someone out there please help me, this divorce would be devistating for our kids and I am willing to try to make things work, so far she has not tried at all. Thank you all for your replies and I hope to hear from you soon.

Others will be along shortly with more seasoned & better advice.

The idea of HER gving YOU deadlines (9 days, 6 months) is rich. She is playing for time, trying to figure out a way to bust up this other guy's marriage so that she can continue her affair. Commitment doesn't come with a deadline.

Congratulations: Your telling the other man's wife was the very best step you could've taken. Keep going in this direction: Your #1 goal at this stage has to be to make it uncomfortable & untenable for her to continue living this fantasy/lie that she's been in. Since she is still behaving as a wayward, i.e., has not committed to recovering your marriage, you should also expose the affair immediately to her parents, your parents, mutual friends, his & her supervisors in their workplace - anyone whose respect she values & who is in position to help put pressure on her to see the light. Don't give her advance warning that you plan to do this -- just do it.

Yes, this will make her very angry. Don't worry about that. Your marriage can survive her anger; anger can subside. Your marriage will not survive a continuing affair. Exposure is what you must do to end the affair.

I know, easy for me to say, tough for you to do. You probably are also feeling in a vulnerable position because you're not employed due to F/T study. But you've got to fight for your marriage & your family right now, in a way that your kids will respect 20 years from now, no matter what the outcome. Exposure is your best shot at eventually bringing her to her senses.

Sorry, I am new here. I have been reading over all the other posts all day and I don't understand what plan A and plan B is. I also forgot to mention I have been staying with my brother and I watch the kids while she is working (she works from home) so I am in the house with her even though I only see her when she comes out on her breaks. We have not had sex for around a month which was before they had sex.
They had sex on Jan 1st, I didn't find out until Jan 14th when I seen a chat log between the 2 of them, which they had conversed for 6 hours and it was very detailed and explicit about what they had done, they even pleasured themselves during the conversation. My wife is a christian woman though she has strayed from God and this man she is in love with is into Witchraft. I am so lost right now and alone. I need your alls help so bad. Please let me know if I can resolve our marriage because I do love her and I do want to try.

I have told all of her friends and her family and they are with me all the way, they say that they will respect her decision regardless, but they all think she should work things out with me. She has started a new women's bible devotional that her friends are helping her with, (her friends are very religious)She said 9 days because she needs time to think if she wants to give the 6 month trial a chance.
She wants me to finish school even in divorce and said she will help me get through it so we can still give a better life to our children.

You never leave home, go back home now!

Does this mean I should have her or myself sleep on the couch, because at this point there is no way possible we can both sleep in the same bed. She will not be up for me moving back in and it would be VERY difficult for me as well. I haven't left home and I made that clear, my stuff is still here, I have just been sleeping elsewhere.

SHE committed adultery and SHE doesn't want YOU in YOUR home?

What's wrong with this picture, Jonpen?

Well the problem is, she pays for the house. Her aunt bought the house and she makes the monthly payments. I am not working and going to school F/T, how can I approach her that I am going to move back in? I can barely stand to see her myself.

After reading my entire post does anyone think this marriage is able to be saved? she told me she wanted out and I convinced her to wait another 9 days before she fully decides. please read my entire posts and see what you think.

So?
She cant legaly kick you out of the marital home without a court order.

Sure, if thats what you want. Start reading all the stuff about affairs under the "Most popular Links" menue to the right.

Here's what you need to do:

1. Go to Radio Shack and by a digital voice recorder

2. Whenever you are around your WW, have it on at all times.

3. Archive the recordings and keep in a safe place

4. MOVE BACK IN.

5. MOVE BACK IN

6. MOVE BACK IN

7. If she threatens to call the police or file a TRO against you for moving back into your house, FILE ONE ON HER!!

8. Under no circumstances do you move out of the house. If you do, you have a very good chance of being an every other weekend dad.

It sounds like the OM was busted by his wife so that's why he broke off the affair with you WW. However, you WW is going to try and contact him within the next 9 days and hope upon hope that his wife kicks him out because of that contact. Once he's kicked out, she will move him into the house, and file for emergency support and you will then be paying for both her and her boyfriend. Sound scary? Sound far fetched? It happened to me and has happened to others on this board.

Three things to do today:

Move back in.

Move back in.

Move back in.

Read up on this site on the beginning pages about plan A.

Plan A link in my signature.
Move back in.
If she doesn't want to sleep in the same bed w/you she can sleep on the sofa or at a friend's.
Suck it up and do plan A.

Don't think of this person you can't stand to see as your wife. Think of them as a person temporarily possessed by a demon or temporarily not themselves due to mental or extreme physical illness. Do Plan A in anticipation of the time your real wife returns.

I don't even know where to begin with plan A, does anyone have a link other than the author's explanation? such as a template or something I could go by? Thank you.

The question is, what do YOU want. There are no guarantees in life, but if you really want this, you will get some outstanding advice from the veterans on this board.

Oh and I do know a little about plan A from just reading a little on it, here is the problem; She works from home but they have a work IM, the IM is monitored and so no personal conversation is allowed, though this won't stop them I'm sure. She wants to speak with him for a few reasons A:She loves him, B:she wants to confirm that "what they had was real" because she said even if it wasn't for him it was for her. c:to get closure on the situation as to whether they are going to try to be together, or if he is going to work things out with his wife.
I will move back in and start staying there again in a few days.

I would love any advice given at this point. I want to work things out. I love her more than words can describe and she is the mother of my 2 children. I DO believe we could live a happy life together for as long as we both live, I DO believe our marriage would be stronger than ever if we get through this, and I AM willing to try anything to get this to work.
She will not talk to me unless it's about the kids, she is an emotional wreck right now, she doesn't eat and can't sleep because she said she is heartbroken over him and then gets even more upset that she's heartbroken over him and not me.
How am I to act during these 9 days before we talk again? I will move back in and ask her to either stay somewhere else or sleep on couch, though I know this won't go over well at all with her.

No, today.
Are you not listening?

Re contact OM's wife and tell her your WW's current plan to contact her WH.

Okay as far as if your marriage is recoverable the answer is YES. Will it be? that remains to be seen, as Dr H says it is a narrow path to recovery.

First, get back in to YOUR house. Who cares who pays for it, it is where YOU live. And, I believe you should move back in to your bedroom. If she doesn't want to sleep in your bed with her husband tough tooties. She can sleep on the couch if SHE chooses. Exposing the affair is the first step in ending the affair and if you have done so to EVERYONE you can think of, then you did that right. Did you expose to Other Man's Wife? This should be done over the phone if possible.

Second, You should read up on Emotional Needs, and Love busters and then try to do a SOLID Plan A. You should also look at getting the book Surviving An Affair and READ IT. There is a lot of information on this site and a lot of helpful people on this forum.

Third, snoop. You should find out everything you can about their affair.

Don't worry about her saying that it is over. All waywards say the same things, it is even called a SCRIPT and it is almost predictable. My WH told me that it is over and he is living with OW at this moment and I still firmly believe that my M is able to be saved. Only time will tell if it is.

When you wife talks in Fog-babble(as it is affectionately called around these parts) just think of her like the teacher from peanuts.

READ as much as you can and post. Take the advice of the vets on here that seem to go along with your plan. If you want to save your M than follow the advice that will lead you to that end.

ok I will move back there today, also she already knows, my wife had disabled her facebook account when this first happened, she re-enabled it to talk with one of the OM's close friends to get his advice. The OM's spouse saw her on there and msg'd her saying "why are you back on here!? you have caused me more pain and humiliation than you can imagine" I'm not sure the exact conversation but this is what the OM's wife said.

Please read "the carrot an the stick" in the notable post section. Its revised version is on this page. I'll bump it for you.

The trick is exposure of both parties and meeting her emotional needs. This is part of the Plan A route.

I just read the carrot an stick, I will try this but in my situation it's so hard to know exactly what to do and when to do it. How am I going to tell her I am moving back in the house when were supposed to be waiting 9 days to decide whether we are going to work things out?

Also when I do move back in today how am I supposed to act? do I help around the house as much as possible? Do I ignore her?, because I know she will be ignoring me. I's sorry but I am a direction oriented man. I need step by step tips in order to know what to do, mainly because I am so distraught with emotions I cannot think clearly. When I am at the house we don't argue,because we don't talk. please guys I need help.

I am new at this but I suggest you move back ASAP. One of the biggest mistakes (among many others) I did was to leave the house in the beginning. These days are crucial to your recovery. When you are out of your house you are allowing your WW to play the A freely in the comfort of her home court. Make it difficult for her to contact OM by being around. Make no mistake, she'll try the impossible to contact him.

Just go back, be courteous, say hello and act like nothing has happened. If she ignores you don't try to force conversation. If she asks why you're back just tell her that you want whats best for your marriage. Be like a broken record - avoid going into deep conversations. Be prepared that she might get angry. Make sure you don't argue or try to teach her a lesson. Don't take any bait to start a fight. Just be calm and collected. That part is hard but crucial in plan A.

Don't pay attention to what she's saying about OM. What they have is not real - it's just an illusion. WS are in a altered state of mind where you can't try to make sense of their words. Anything she says is just noise and lies.

Again, go back to YOUR home NOW.

I am sure the vets around here will come and give you more advice. Pay attention to what they'll tell you and act promptly. This is the time to be strong and fight for your marriage.

-- ElCamino72

thanks for that insight, I will move back in today, I am about to send her a text letting her know. When do the vets usually come on? I need alot of help starting from the beginning of my post. I am going to send her a text thats says "I am going to move back into the house tonight, I can't stand the feeling of not being there at night to offer security for my kids and you. I know you never told me I had to leave and I made that choice on my own, but I am not making the choice to move back. I will be sleeping in our bed and your more than welcome to join me, but if you don't want to then you can pull out other bed or stay at a friends house." Does this sound ok?

i read the links but I don't know where to start.

DON'T SEND THAT TEXT

That is not part of Plan A. Don't give her a choice of leaving or sleeping elsewhere. Do you have a key to your home? Just GO HOME. Walk in the door as if nothing happened and you belong there because guess what? YOU BELONG THERE.

The vets come on here at differing times of day. Don't be discouraged, EVERY DAY there are new people coming on here and the same things are said over and over again. Maybe you could read through some other people's threads and see if there are any sitchs that are like yours. I am SURE you will find some that are very similar.

100 % DITTO

When she asks you about the 9 days thing I would respond with something like, "I don't need 9 days to figure out I want to continue to be married to you, would you like a cup of tea?" You don't actually have to go make any tea but it is a way to state what you want and quickly changing the subject. She will NOT be happy that you have come home because now her "play time" is over. Your M will survive her anger but it will not survive her A.

X3

Just go home, do not warn her of anything from now on.

What don't you understand.

i don't understand how to act when I get home tongight, or what to say when she says "you didn't even tell me you were coming home" or we talked about you gradually moving back in, etc.... how do I act? do i just smile all the time and act super happy and continue to work hard around the house? do I try to start conversation with her?

Jonpen, you are dealing with an alien. Do not take anything coming out of her mouth as being sane, reasonable, rational or meaningful. Instead, imagine you are Charlie Brown and your WW is his teacher. You know: Yadda Yadda Yadda...

The advice you've gotten so far is right on: Be cheerful, speak in short sentences, avoid any talk of relationship, and simply try to be "Mr. Nice."

If she gets angry or confrontational, simply excuse yourself and walk away. Into another room -- NOT OUT THE DOOR. Please understand that for the immediate future, you cannot have a reasonable conversation with her. Your job right now is to make her head spin with how nice you are!

I understand being too distraught to think clearly. Plan A is about you learning to be the best husband you can be, and letting her see that you can be the man of her dreams. Plan A is all about actions, and not about talk. In other words, DO plan A, don't TALK about the relationship or fixing things.

1. Move back home. Stay in YOUR bed. If she doesn't like it she can move or sleep somewhere else. You're not abandoning the marriage, she is. Why make it easy on her by moving out? Besides, it's easier to work on Plan A if you're in the same house.

2. AVOID LOVE BUSTERS. I don't care how angry you get, no angry outbursts! Read up on disrespectful judgments and read it over and over and over. They can be tricky to recognize at first so think twice and speak once.

3. Meet her top ENs. Read up on ENs and bust your tail to meet her top 3. Just try to figure out what hers are. What does OM do for her that you don't? For most women, conversation is high on the list. Ask her about her day. LISTEN to her and respond. If things get tense, change the subject or excuse yourself and leave the room.

4. If you haven't already, expose to anybody who might influence your WW to end her A. Her parents, siblings, boss (if OM works with her), your children, OM's wife, OM's parents, your pastor, and so on.

Slow down and breathe. It took months and likely years for your marriage to get to this state. It will take months and years for it to get better. Go back and re-read Plan A. Take your time. Think about it. Follow the links. Read them. Think it over.

If you ask specific questions here you'll get better help. You have to DO something other than running in circles freaking out. It's totally understandable, we've all been there. Believe us, you need to calm down, breathe, develop a plan, and stick to it. Panic does not help your cause. A good plan, accompanied with action, does.

Normal, be a good husband, avoid affair conversations.

I'm here to save our marriage, want a cookie?

Normal, be a good husband, avoid affair conversations.

Sure, just not about the affair or your relationship.

You say "This is my home and I live here."
You say "I'm interested in repairing our marriage, not enabling your affair."

Then you change the subject to something pleasant. Don't get dragged into a battle or any relationship talk. Just let her know where you stand, and move on. Ask her would she prefer chicken for dinner or beef? Invite her to a movie she's been dying to see.

MEET HER ENs.

[quot]do i just smile all the time and act super happy and continue to work hard around the house? do I try to start conversation with her? [/quote]
What are her top ENs? If domestic support is a top EN and she's left doing all the cooking, cleaning, child care, etc. after working all day then YES make her dinner, get the kids bathed and into bed, get the dishes into the dishwasher, and run the vacuum. Throw in a load of laundry.

On the other hand if DS is not on her radar, you'd be totally wasting your time doing all that stuff. If conversation is her top EN, ask her about a book she's been reading or some other topic she's interested in.

If she brings up the relationship, change the subject. If you MUST respond, respond calmly and firmly that you are interested in marriage, not separation or divorce or affairs. Then move on to another subject.

Pleasant and polite.
Not clingy or emotional.



It's Ok to smile if you feel like smiling.


Smiling all the time will seem weird and disingenuous.
Smile when appropriate.



Pleasant and polite.
And, genuine. Not phony.



Do what needs to be done.
Then sit and relax.
ENJOY YOUR HOME!


Ask benign questions only.
Are you hungry?
Do you want to watch TV?
Did you hear about the (insert news item)?

Some pocket responses - useful when she catches you off guard with her weirdness, and you are NOT SURE what to do:

Let me think about that one.

Something to consider.

I'll process that.

I'm not sure.

Could you explain that a bit more?

wow thanks! the main problem is I may have already gone to far with disrespectful judgements. I told her she needs to follow God, I told her what she has done is hurting me badly, and I told her about doing the 6 month trial period. I am the one telling her all these things but if it was up to her she would just end it.
She told me it was over and wanted out that she could never love me the same again. I won't ignore her but I also just won't listen to any of her relationship nonsense because even when she was upset and crying over him I comforted her, and I told her that I had done bad things in our marriage.
She is partially placing the blame on me for not meeting her emotional needs, and though I know it was not my fault at all, she thinks it was.
I am going to go to the house tonight at 8 and i will text her 10 mins before i get there and say "I will be home in 10 mins" because I do want to surprise her but not scare her.
Should I bring all my clothes and stuff back to the house and just starting moving them in without even saying anything?
so let me try and get it straight,
I should try to have conversations with her about anything other than our relationship and her OM. I should be there for here and be super nice to her. should I tell her she needs to stop all communication with him? I can't say "stop or I'll leave you" etc.. because she don't care if I leave her. She told me she does miss me sometimes because we had a long talk last night for about 2 hours, when at first she wanted divorce then she said to give her till next friday so she can have time to think.
It seems I have went about things all wrong and I am afraid it might be too late, but I will keep trying. Also when should I invite her to go out with me? and what if she refuses? T
hese are all the different questions going through my head right now.

That's right don't send that text. Do not plead, accommodate or beg her. Remember that a WW is not ready to make sense of what you are trying to say. Keep it simple - look strong.

Deep conversations may be counterproductive at this point so stay away from heavy stuff. Just walk in there like you normally do. In my case, I used to act like a friendly neighbor. Your action of going back to your home will speak louder.

Don't wait. Pack your things and GO BACK HOME NOW.

--ElCamino72

NO!
Do not warn her.
Go home at, or as close to your normal time as possible.



Yes

why NO!
we keep a gun at the house and she scares very easily, thats why I am only giving her 10 mins. I'm not going to tell her I am moving back in, just I will be home in 10 mins, I come in to tuck the kids in at night sometimes anyway.

and what exactly am I going to say when she asks,
"what are you doing? Why are you bringing all your stuff back in?" just simply say "I'm moving back in?" and then she will say "we both talked about this and you said you would move in gradually over our 6 month trial period" I am afraid I am going to push her further away and she won't even consider the trial period after this.

Get in the house and put the gun in the trunk of your car.
Or, better yet, the trunk of your neighbors car. (with their permission, of course)

She is home right now and will be all day.

You've already gotten good advice.
You still want to argue with it?

Answer her questions with:

"I live here."

Yes, but .....

Don't be afraid.
Be brave.

Just tell her this is your home and go about your unpacking, make some dinner, take a shower...whatever.

Becouse it is not something you would normally have done before the affair.
Don't sneak in, just walk in like normal.

What I must to save our marriage.

Becouse this is where my stuff belongs.

Have you ate yet?

Trust us.

In the months I've been here, I've never seen good advice about wayward spouses go wrong yet.

Trust us.

I will trust you all 100% though I don't understand some of these things, you all know whats best and I am in no way thinking straight. I will keep you all updated. feel free to read the entire post again and offer any more suggestions or advice. Thank you all so much!

Your WW wants to leave you because she's in love w/ OM. Guess what? If OM drops her for his wife and stops contacting you, she'll stay with you. The only reason she would leave you is for OM and that isn't happening. Start acting like you are married, and eventually she will. If you stay away, you are just inviting some other OM to start meeting her needs, and this OM might be available or have no problems leaving his wife.

You don't want to go back because your are trying to avoid conflict. Conflict is inevitable. Learn how to deal with it. Be Teflon. Just let all her crap bounce off you.

If she asks you why you are moving back in you say, "because we are married and I should be home where my children and wife are."

When she asks why you moved out in the first place you say, "I was going through a lot of pain and I made a mistake. I'm here to stay now."

Avoid relationship talk.

You want to know how to do plan A. Go print out the emotional needs and love busters questionnaires and try to fill them out the way you think your wife would. Then you follow what you filled out. Don't push things, just try and meet the needs she lets you. If she complained about you doing nothing around the house, start cleaning up things on your own, cook for her and the kids, etc. If she complains that you never talk to her, subtly try and engage her in conversation. If that doesn't work, just respond to her when she eventually says something to you. If she goes to the salon, tell her that her new haircut looks nice.

one more thing. When is the right time to ask her to stop all communications with the OM? like I said she makes excuses like "I just want to know what we had is real" and "I need closure on what he wants" I already told her before to stop all communications or I would instantly file for divorce, but I know now that this was probably the wrong thing to do.

Also she is talking to his best friend for advice on what she should do, of course she will tell him I'm a bad person etc...just so she can hear someone say "you should be with the Om instead of your husband" because her friends her family and her entire group of co-wokers (including the OM's spouse, which works on same team as my wife) wants her to work things out with me.

How can I put a stop to her talking to these people? they work together and she works with the OM she is in love with. I know after reading the only way to repairing our marriage is for her to stop ALL communications with the OM but with her job this is not possible.

When I first came here, this is exactly how I felt. Everything seemed so out of sync with my instincts and then I thought about the fact that my instincts got me to where I was. I started reading and rereading what people wrote to me and if it seemed counter-intuitive I knew it must be right.

Feel free to come on here and ask whatever questions you need answers too and if you need to, come on here to vent about some of the weird fog-babble and alien talk coming out of her mouth. We have heard it all before and the vets have seen this play out many many times. Affairs tend to happen according to a script.

Oh and one more thing, the more you learn about this place the more you will want to share it with your WW. DO NOT TELL HER ABOUT THIS FORUM. If the time comes for recovery, then you can let her know about this place. The advice you get here will be invaluable.

Jonpen,

Your WW is going through a very tough withdrawal. How should you act around a drug addict that cannot get a fix or an alcoholic that is going through the DTs? Think of it that way.

She is terrified, miserable, and heartbroken because she is realizing her "soul mate" was just in it for the "ride"

You should leave her be if she wants to be left alone. Maybe not try to start any kind of conversation. Focus on the kids and playing with them, which may remind her of FAMILY. Be pleasant but keep your distance like you would from a drunk going through the DTs. NO RELATIONSHIP TALK!!

You just have to hunker down and let her get through withdrawal. Another call to the OM's wife might be wise, just to get the total lay of the land. Maybe compare notes. My guess is the OM is cringing at the thought of your WW getting in touch with him.

But do move back now. She must not have the upper hand directing your actions. And do not let her BLAME YOU for her adulterous affair. That is total bullpoop.

imho

kirk

OM's wife works with your WW? That is a good thing. I'd call her back to get an idea of what is going on. One thing at at time. Get back into your house. What have WW's family had to say to you?

Jonpen,

""Also she is talking to his best friend for advice on what she should do""

What is stopping you from giving the best friend a call and getting a dialogue going. Not blasting into him, but a calm and logical discussion on what is going on and how can we make this go away.

Why would the best friend give your WW advice on how to get the OM back. The best friend would want the best for the OM which would be staying in his marriage!!

Your WW's body has been invaded by an Alien. She is so totally in the FOG that she is make very irrational calls and reaching out to anyone. But I don't think anyone is going to tell her what she wants to hear.

imho

kirk

They said they want us to work things out and they can see how hard I am trying. They know this OM isn't right for her even if we weren't together, but they also said they will respect her decision no matter what it is.

"I will move back in and start staying there again in a few days."

No, no, no, no, no, no, etc.......

Move back in today. You are married, she can not force you out of the home or bed. She is the one cheating. If she wants to be separate that bad she can move out without the kids.

You sleep in the marriage bed.

She had the affair.

She does not want to share the bed she can sleep on the couch.

Appeal to their senses on behalf of your children. Call BW and see if you can light a fire.

Don't be discouraged by their reactions. Theirs are better than the ones I got. I got "I don't get involved in that kind of stuff." That was my MIL. Although, my SIL left her husband for POSOM and has 2 kids with him and my MIL and FIL cheated all throughout their M, I really shouldn't have expected much more. In my case exposure did nothing really significant except that everyone now knows and my WH and OW were an affair relationship. It is tainted and that's the best I can hope for in the exposure department.

They can't pretend that they fell in love AFTER our M was over because I told EVERYONE. I did total work, friend and family exposure, as well as a pool league and an online game my WH plays. EVERYONE knows and that is all that matters to me.

"I will move back in today, I am about to send her a text letting her know"

Let her know.

Let her know nothing. You just do it. When she says why you here. Tell her its your home and family. Then change the subject. What's for diner? Need help with that?

Then start plan A'ing.

Asking permission just makes you appear weak. Which to women is unappealing.

Okay so let's recap.
1 Pack your things up right now and get going.

2 Walk right in the front door of your house and start moving your things back in.

3 Stay Calm

4 Plan A

5 NO LOVE BUSTING

6 NO THREATS

7 Sleep in YOUR bed tonight. And don't worry about where she will sleep, she's a big girl. (my WH stayed in my bed right up until I Plan B'd him)

That brings you through tonight. Then you can deal with the morning. What will you do in the morning? Some more Plan A. There now you have a plan so start acting on it.

100% DITTO

ok I have all my things packed up and I'm heading there now. I know she is going to hound me. "why are you moving back?" because i want to be with my family. "i thought you were going to gradually move back in during our 6 month trial period!" i don't have an answer for that one.

"I am back home where I belong.

You're still thinking you need an appropriate answer to everything she says. You're thinking you need an answer which somehow justifies you moving in now . You don't. You just need a few pat answers:

- I'm trying to save this marriage
- I'm going to work to save this marriage
- I think this will help the marriage
etc.

So when she says "Why are you moving in now instead of in 6 months?", say "Because I think it's better for the marriage if I move in now."

You do not have to answer her questions.
Simply state your truth.

The moment you start to answer her "Why are you here" is the moment she will argue with your reasons.

Just state your truth.

THIS IS MY HOME.

you guys will be so proud. I moved all my stuff back in and her whole family was in the living room. There jaws dropped to the floor! my wife said "what are you doing"? I said "I"m coming home" she said "don't you think this is a decision we both should have made?" I said "no, this is my home as much as it is yours, I am home now to be with my family and I want to save this marriage" She was just shocked and went to her friends house down the road to stay. She said "what are you going to do if this doesn't work?" I said "im not sure because I plan on saving the marriage" I was short, nice, and brief.

Be proud of yourself.

I forgot to mention that we did converse quit a bit. We talked about the kids, she showed me a laptop she wanted to get with our tax money and she has over $200.00 in best buy gift cards so it will cost about 250 of our tax money.
Which is ok other than the fact she is most likely going to try and sneak conversations with the OM obviously, also I bought a $1200.00 computer with tax money last year. She said "are you not concerned that I am uncomfortable with you being here"? I kind of just brushed it off.
She was very negative in most conversation such as "if we don't stay together I still want to make sure the bills get paid" I am supposed to look for car insurance for us also, which I will do. the entire conversation was mostly her saying "well if things don't work out then...etc.." on almost everything we talked about.

So what is my next step? Just be nice to her, talk to her normally, do things for her around the house, bring her small gifts? should I offer to give her back rubs because I know she loves those, even though I know I won't get anything in return? When do I ask to go out as a family? She knows I don't want her talking to the OM but she don't care, she says "I just want to know what we had was real even if he doesn't want to be together" and "I want closure with him to know what he is planning to do" How do I get her to stop talking to him completely because she DOES want out of the marriage and she DOES NOT want me to stay here. i know thats alot of question but please help guys I'm at a road block now.

Jonpen, can you bring me up to speed here? Has the affair been exposed to everyone? Your family, her family, friends, and children?

If she talks to the OM in your presence, I would interrupt her and ask her to take her affair conversations out of your home. She should not subject you and your children<?> to her affair in the safety of your home. Tell her that her adultery is hurtful.

I would not be offering her "back rubs" and falling all over her. That is inappropriate under the circumstances. Plan B does not mean to REWARD her for cruel, abusive behavior. It only means that you avoid lovebusters and and express a willingness to meet her needs if she ends her affair.

p.s. have you spoken to the OMW and updated her on everything? She needs to know everything your wife is saying about her adultery.

I know it's a very long post but all the details are there. I did expose it to her friends, co-workers, her family, my family, the OM's wife. The OM's wife got on facebook and sent my wife a msg that said "why are you on here, haven't you cause enough pain and humiliation" I wrote the OM's wife on facebook and told her to call me because I don't have her #.
She does not try to contact him in front of me because she does know it hurts me and she said she still cares for me and loves me but isn't in love with me and she doesn't think she could ever be in love with me again. If you can and I know it's long but look over my first few originol posts for ALL the details because there is so much to this.

OKAY, no more talking about the affair or OM, if she starts to talk about OM you should reverse fog-babble her. The only relationship talk should be you stating that you are doing what is best for your marriage and you want to save your marriage.

Read up on everything you can on Plan A and do it. Also read everything you can on Love busters and figure out which ones you do and make a decision NOT to do them. Don't be fake. Don't lie. Be the best you that you can be. Be a man that she would be happy to be with. You are in for a long hard journey. Plan A is hard, Plan B is harder and I have been told that Recovery is harder still.

There is a fine line between Plan A and Plan Doormat. You won't feel comfortable in Plan A but as long as you focus on showing your WW that you can be a great husband and you avoid any love busters, that is the best thing for you right now.

I just looked through her drawers and found some notes she had written to herself. There was about 5 of them the first one saying "I feel like a hole is tearing through my chest, I literally feel the physical pain of it. I am like a ghosts, I don't want to do anything anymore." then the other,
"I love my children more than anything, does this mean I should reconcile with thier father? Do I need to live my life in misery and suffer to make my kids happy, should I stay for the kids and try to be happy when my heart isn't in it? this is what I want but im not ready to do that yet" then 3rd in reference to OM "he told me he loved me and even if we died today I was the love of his life, he called me his black diamond, his everything and said we would be together forever, yet he also says things like what is love? do we really understand love? Sometimes I don't feel love for you" then the 4th in reference to Om again
"is it really this easy for people to walk in and out of my life,everyone is telling me he just used me for sex, he never did love you, amI that hard to love? I am so alone. Everyone is trying to get me to do this and that and I'm being ripped from 10 different directions, everyone tells me go to church, read bible, work things out with husband, what about what I want!?"
These are the letters i just found.
please read over my post, I am back in house tonight and have moved back in but she said she is uncomfortable I am here, and that I didn't consider what she wants by moving back in without saying anything yada yada, fog-babble. so whats my next move?

It's just fog babble. She sounds like a teenage girl. Just focus on meeting her emotional needs and avoiding love busters. Also keep an eye out to prevent contact w/ OM. Eventually she'll realize that OM was just using her for sex and that it wasn't "true love" at all. It will take several months of no contact w/ OM for that to happen.

Just focus on the plan A. Go to the questionnaires on the site. How would you think she would fill the ENs and LBs questionnaires. Go to the Questionnaires link at the top of the page, and discuss some of that on your thread. Maybe we can help you figure out how to better meet your emotional needs right now and where you were messing up before. I would focus my energy on that right now, not interpreting her fogged out letters.

I know that you feel like you have to do huge things but it is little steps that will get you there. You did a HUGE thing today by listening to everyone on here and moving back in to your home. Doesn't that feel right? Am I right in understanding that she has decided to go and stay at a friend's house? She works from home right? If so, won't she HAVE to come back? Just try to focus on Plan A, and try to get some sleep.

I warned you that she would not be happy that you have moved back in because now her "party time" is over. Plan A doesn't mean you avoid making her angry, you just avoid using Love busters. If she gets angry at things, that is her choice. If you are really bored, you can read some threads on here. I did that many times when I was up and there wasn't much traffic on the boards. My thread is 88 pages long. There is a lot of info on Plan A on there. You could look at some of the things on there. http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2309533&page=1

and my other thread http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=157882&Number=2275439#Post2275439

Good night. I have a 7 year old son's birthday party to throw tomorrow night after school. I need some rest

Plan A is not buying her gifts.

Plan A is showing that you are changing into a better spouse by meeting her needs. Conversation, domestic help, picking up the slack, recreation time together.

but I don't know how to have recreation time together when she won't even dare go somewhere with me.
She was SHOCKED as well as her whole family when I moved back in, and let me tell you I had a smile on all night. I am back home with my kids, slept in my bed, watched a movie on my tv.
She did go and stay at a friend's house last night, and yes she works from home and is here right now.
I asked "did you sleep good?" she said No not really. then a little bit later when she was getting ready for work I asked, "Would you like something to eat?" she said "no thank you" then I joked with her and I got this new face mask in the mail which I had trouble putting it on, she said "come here" and fixed in for me we laughed because I couldn't put it on right.

I joked with her today and said "you can wear my facemask if you get to cold" she just laughed and thats how it's going so far, other than her getting on comp to see if OM's best friend wrote her back because the OM seems to be trying to stop communication himself.

Good job keeping the peace, Jon! I would keep the OMW apprised of all the communications between your W and this friend. Do everything in your power to cause as much conflict in the affair as possible.

You are doing great!

how can i ask her to stop contacting these people? she doesn't care if we get divorced, thats what she wants. I have 0 leverage. So far they have only met up and had sex 1 time, but I know she would do it again in a heartbeat if he started sweet talking her again. I will stick to plan A.
what if she comes to me and says "we need to talk" then she says "I no longer want to be with you, I want the divorce". She said even before she met him she wanted out of the marriage but she couldn't get up the strength to hurt me, which I know is probably true. So this OM was having marriage problems and my wife was having marriage problems so they started talking as friends and then she fell in love over 2 months. I want to work things out so bad, but she is SO distant.

She is distant because of the affair. She wants out of the marriage because of the affair. The way you ask her to stop contacting these people is to ask her to stop contacting these people.


Just let her know that you are not interested in divorce and won't be discussing it. If she wants to move out, you can't stop her, but you won't be cooperating in any divorce scheme. If she does file for divorce, let her know you will not cooperate.

In the meantime, cause as much conflict as possible in the affair. Confront her and the OM every time you find evidence of contact. Talk to the OMW as often as possible to keep each other in the loop.

The solution is for you to kill the affair. When that happens, you can attract her back into the marriage.

Jonpen,

It seems to me that you are kind of in panic mode. Try to calm down and be patient. I know it is easier said than done.

I think that the joking, and laughter could go a long way toward recapturing some loving feelings for each other. Keep it up, as well as the other things the pros are telling you.

GOOD JOB on moving back home. That was HUGE.

You can't make her stop talking to OM or poisonous supporters of the affair. You can't control her. You can tell her that the affair hurts you but honestly you're focused way too much on her right now. Reading through your posts it's all about how do you react to things she might do, how do you get her to do (or stop doing) certain things, how do you react to questions she might pose...

It is very difficult, but you must remove your focus from her, and reacting and instead focus on yourself and taking action. This is very important.

Moving home was about you. It was action.

Other things you need to be focusing on:
Eliminating love busters. It sounds like you have a bucketful but the good news is you seem to recognize them. So work hard and diligently on getting rid of ALL the love busters.

Focus on being the best husband you can. Play with the kids, do some housework, ask about her day and her interests **and listen attentively**.

Quit focusing on what she's doing, what she might ask, what she might do. Drop the relationship talk. When she starts on it, change the subject.

Focus on YOU. Focus on consistent ACTIONS.

I am working on laundry and I cleaned the bathroom today. I want this house to be pleasent for myself and in doing so she will see how hard I'm working. She told me she appreciated me doing all the things that I have been doing around the house.
It's so hard to focus on me when I love her so much, but I'm not being fake, I'm just being happy, happy that I am back home with the kids. I am going to take them to the playground today and just have a good time with them.

I understand what you are going through. Mine still wants to be friends with her lover I tried to accept it but could not. You have to tell her you will change for her but she also has to change. I was so messed up that I attemped suicide and she came to me and helped me when I was in the phyc ward in the hospital. So you have to try and show her you really do care for her more than he could.

Pleas stop contact with OM and anyone involved with him.

Really?

Then why have you not been served with divorce papers?

Sorry bud, but thats probably a lie.


Tell her you do not. If she insists on divorcing you she will have to go file herself, you will not do it for her.


Marital history re-right/justification.
All waywards do it.
Stop listening to her!!
The affair is what is causing this, she did not want out until OM came along.


Now, this is very important.

Contact OM's wife and tell her who this friend of her husbands is who is trying to relay messages from OM to your WW. Om's friend may go By-By then.

Do this today, do this now!

ok I contacted her and told her. Also I know from the chat log they only met up once and had sex 1 time, they kept talking about how much they wanted to do it again. I will stop listening her. I will not agree to divorce. I have been very nice to her today and have been doing laundry and cleaning. how can I meet some of her other EN's if she isn't willing? like recreation, I know she won't go anywhere with me alone but maybe soon I can try to plan a family outing. I am competing with another man she is "in love with" and I can't compete with that, but I will keep doing what I'm doing. I wonder if she will sleep in bed with me tonight or on the couch

Good job, what did she say about the friend?

Just say "WW, I would like to go do (Insert fun activity here) would you like to go with me?"

Eventually she will.

They all work together so she is going to talk to the OM's best friend to see what they are saying, also today I took another "pre-caution" on the computer to see whats going on. I will keep you all informed.

OM's BF, is going to lie to her. Does she understand that?

"but I don't know how to have recreation time together when she won't even dare go somewhere with me."


As part of plan A you plan family outings where you invite WW to join you and the kids. WW declines don't sweat it. Just go.
When the kids comeback and tell mom about the fun she missed out on that may motivate her to start joining the family.

Jonpen,

""today I took another "pre-caution" on the computer to see whats going on.""

This is a very good thing. YOU MUST SNOOP!!! Contact the OM's wife. She is going to be your best ally in stopping the A. It was my understanding the OM was trying to work on his M and told your WW as much.

Tell the OM's wife what your WW is up to with the best friend. If you can't call her then do the face book thang.

And, again, can't you contact the OM's best friend and have a man to man discussion. You MUST be pro-active and get onto these people.

If they all work together, didn't HR do anything about it when you exposed the A to them?

I may be wrong, won't be the 1st time, but contacting the wife of OM and the best friend of OM would help to keep the pressure on.

imho

kirk

You need to find the book Surviving An Affair by Dr Harley. You may have it at your local library. Although you do not tell your wife about this website, when you read the book don't hide it. Don't talk to her about it unless she asks and then just simply say something like, "I found reading to be very soothing, would you like cake for dessert tonight?"

As far as doing the family things together, do what the others suggested. Make plans for family outings and invite WW along. If she refuses, don't react, just go out and have an amazing time. Take focus off of making your WW happy and focus on doing the best for your kids.

Don't expect to get a lot of good reactions out of her and don't stop doing things that you know will meet her top 3 emotional needs. It will be extremely discouraging at times. That's okay. Come on here and vent about the ways she is acting and you may be surprised.

One of my WH's top EN is sexual fulfillment, but we had stopped having sex so I had to ask what to do instead. I got a lot of advice on that. I did what was suggested to me but I got reactions that were contrary to good. I would touch my WH and he would pull away from me and make a disgusted noise. I would get hurt my it. I came on here and vented and people told me that I was making him uncomfortable and that was a good thing.

Just Plan A and avoid all Love Busters and focus on yourself and your kids.

jonpen,

You're doing a great job. Keep following the excellent advice you're getting from the pros.


Your WW DOES have the strength to hurt you. The A is proof of that. She just want to keep you around while she figures out how to leave with OM.

Her notes indicate doubts about OM intentions. That's to your advantage. He may stop contact if the A gets too messy.

So keep the pressure on the A. The OM will back off when it gets too hot to handle. Keep using the OMW as your ally. You may want to send a letter to HR in their workplace. There are samples of those letters in other threads of the forum. Many employers will not tolerate As due to the risks of sexual harassment suits. If you haven't, ask her friends at the bible devotional group to support her in making the right decision.

At the same time, keep up your plan A. No LBs. Stay away from relationship talk. I wish I could've found this place at the moment you've found it. So make the most out of this opportunity to recover your marriage. Be strong for your family. You are going to make it.

--ElCamino72

here is another problem i face now. Her family is very upset with me moving back in without discussing it with her. I told them the whole "it's my home" everything but now they say they feel as if i am making them chose sides and they will choose her. I told them to please let me and wife handle it and it will work out. She told her aunt (who owns the house i moved back into) that she will just stay somewhere else and her aunt told her that she didn't want that. Should I talk to my Ws about this because her family is not in favor of what I did at all.

What you should tell her family is that you want them to choose one side, and that is the side of your marriage and what is best for that. DO NOT MOVE BACK OUT. You live there, that is your home and it is where you belong. BTW, who told you what her family said? Was it her? If it was it is probably hogwash anyways.

her aunt told me she said those things. I just looked in her email and the OM's wife on facebook sent her a msg that said "get off of here, what are you doing trying to have more late night chat sessions with my husband!? do yourself and me a favor and delete us both!" my wife told me she said something way different. I am going to talk to her family today and I will not move out. but if my wife keeps staying somewhere else they will feel sorry for her and start pressuring me.

We're all here in similar situations, and although I'm new, I'm starting to have some initial success with Plan A and my WW.

1. Stop panicking. Nothing is going to change overnight. Even if she files for D, it's going to take months. And it takes time for the affair fog to lift so be patient.

2. She is more confused than you are. There's really no point talking to her about your relationship right now.

3. Try to be pleasant. Help out around the house. Be the best dad you can be.

4. Exercise more and watch your diet. You need to look your best. It will make you more confident and make her think you could get someone else if you wanted to.

5. She's lying to you. There's really no point talking to her about the affair. My WW looked me straight in the eyes and said, "I promise we are just friends. There is nothing going on." Remember, it's all lies and confusion. Don't take it personal.

6. Don't appear so needy and desperate. Even if you are, you've got to appear like you're going to be fine either way. Even if she divorces you, big deal, she's a liar and a cheater anyway, and she's embarrassing herself to her family and friends.

7. Start Googling for a good marriage counselor. Needs to be an infidelity expert, not just some run-of-the-mill psychologist. Call him up and talk to him to see if he knows how to handle infidelity and is interested in saving marriages. If not, call someone else. Then see if your wife will go to an appointment with you. If not, go by yourself. But see if she will go to a few sessions "for the kids."

8. Avoid alcohol. If you drink even just one glass of wine or a beer, it can make a person in your state really emotional and you might do something stupid.

Should i tell my WS i want her to stay in the house with me? I won't talk about the relationship or the A but like i said if she keeps staying somewhere else it's going to cause a war between me and her family.

Jon,

You are doing a great job. In plan A you show your WW the family that she is trying to decide to no longer be a part of. Do fun things with your kids. Watch movies, plan outings, make great family dinners. Ask her to join you and smile and say next time when she declines.

The next time her family asks why you came home to stay without talking to your wife about it, tell them that she did not talk to you before she committed adultery. If she had, you would not be in this position.

God' Blessings,

Say

Tough. Who cares what they want. This is between you and your WW. Where are the kids staying? They should be staying in the marital home. If they are, I would document every night your WW spends away from the home. You will need this journal later on if you do get divorced, and what she is doing could very well hurt her in a custody battle.

Either way, I bet your wife is back in the house in a few days. She'll pout and stay somewhere else for a few days, but eventually she'll get over it.

1) Yes, tell her you want her home with you and the children.

2) If her family gets on your nerves, just ignore them. You can recultivate that relationship once you and your WW reconcile.

If she chooses to stay somewhere else how is that you fault? Calmly let her family know that you want what is best for your marriage and that you would love for your wife to be living with you. Explain to them that all you did was move back in to YOUR home to be with your family where you belong. She is probably lying to them about how she doesn't feel comfortably or safe there and that is why they are reacting the way that they are. I really can't see how a family would think that it would be better for you not to be there.

LOVE THIS ONE. I don't think anyone COULD argue with that one.

i don't want to be rude or mean with her family. They were on my side when I was not in the house but now they may not be. My Ws has something to use against me now, when before she had nothing. like I said I will speak with them today and just tell them I have been speaking with a counselor that adviced it or something.

DON'T LIE. Tell them that you are back in your home because that is where you belong WITH YOUR FAMILY. Who gives a rat's butt if they are gonna be mad at you? How is what Saynomore suggested being rude? I think you should use that one and I wouldn't actually initiate contact with them, don't answer the phone when they call and if they come over just calmly say what SNM said.

Focus on Plan A and don't worry about them right now. They are grown ups and they will get over it. Do what is best for saving your marriage. You listened to all of us yesterday and you moved back in. Didn't it feel good to be home with your kids and to sleep in your bed. I warned you she would be mad and now she is pouting and sulking. Let her grow up and learn some consequences of her actions. Don't worry about the inlaws reactions. Christmas this year will be fine if you get a chance to recover your M.

You are doing good keep it up.

Your marriage counselor advised you to move back in because your marriage won't get any better apart, especially if a 3rd party is involved.

A lawyer would advise you to move back in because moving out would be considered abandonment by the courts and you would be losing any claim to custody of your children if she decided to divorce you.

You tell them you understand their feelings, but in the end you have to do what is right for you and what you think is right to save your marriage even if it isn't the popular choice.

Even if they are on your side right now, what the heck has that gotten you so far? They haven't been able to convince her to stop pursuing OM. They aren't really in a position to influence the outcome of your marriage one way or the other. Sure, they'll give you more headaches, but that is about it.

Remember, she could be lying to her family too, telling them what an a--hole you are and how your whole marriage was a sham.

Just don't panic. If they take her side, they take her side.

It's important that you take the high road. Act in the best interest of the kids. Even if you can't save your marriage, at least you'll know you tried your hardest and were the best person and father you could be in an extraordinarily difficult time.

Will she be able to say the same?

I really think you need to move back in. I would not warn her, I would just move back in and when she asks you, I would say, "I think it's best that I am here for the kids". If she asks you to sleep on the couch, then do that. I wouldn't force her out of the house by being too demanding. I am a woman who is very head-strong, not sure how your wife is. But if my husband tried to force me to sleep on the couch or move out, I would be even more angry at him. What you are trying to do is to get her to see you as a caring man again, the one she fell in love with and wanted to marry.

I saw on your posts that you did not treat her well for a long time - well, now is the time to start then. However, you need to realize that her thoughts of you may take some time to change back over (try a few months at the minimum). She may try to contact this man but that will not work out as easily as she might think it could. He has ties and so does she, and the most important thing in this entire situation are the Children.

Be there for your kids, don't let them see you argue..no yelling or name calling in front of them, as this will traumatize them for life.

Let your wife see how gentle and caring you are with your kids, and be gentle and kind with her. Tell her you are sorry for how you treated her and that you want to reconcile. Don't go over the top though, because that behaviour is easily discounted if it seems fake. Be genuine and be honest with yourself, and focus on you right now, Think about how you can be a better husband and father and focus on that. When you start to change your ways, she will notice (hopefully) and she may start to fall in love with you again.

Wishing you much strength during this difficult time!!!

Your a little late, he moved back in last night

She just found out I was in contact with the other man's wife and BLEW UP! She was furious I remained calm all she kept saying is "I want a divorce! It's over I wanted this divorce even before him!" all I would say is "I don't want a divorce I want to try and save our marriage" she would say "I don't want to save our marriage, I don't want to try!"
I was calm and she was yelling and furious. She talked to her relatives and they are going to help her get a lawyer and pay for the divorce.
I am still staying in the house, and i may go stay all night at a friends every now and again but I told her and her relatives i am not moving out. I am not working and in school full time I cannot afford my own laywer, so I may agree to share one if we can agree on everything. She said she wants me to get through school and she will help me do so. What do I do now? I can't fight her because I don't have my own lawyer. should I talk to her about what half of the stuff is mine and how much $$ she is going to pay me while I am in school? She is going to be staying at a friend's or her aunt's, and I promised I wouldn't try and get her for abandonment. we both agreed to joint custody of the kids regardless. please help me, because now is the day I need it most.

Whoa there, slow down!

All WS's freak out when they learn of exposure, that means it's WORKING! They all spew the same garbage, "you just ruined any hope of us working out" "I want a divorce" "you're vindictive"... just think of her as a 2yo throwing a tantrum. You just took away her favorite toy!

Your marriage can survive her anger, it cannot survive with an ongoing affair.

Keep talking recovery, not divorce. If she wants to get one, she can go out and do the legwork.

Are you in a fault or no-fault state?

Most waywards don't file.
Just wait and see.
Right now, avoid any arguments.

Funny how she can have sex with a married man, but you cannot talk with the man's wife...

Do you see how rediculous that is?

Im in a no-fault state, I don't at all blame myself. I am prepared for the divorce but i will continue to tell her the entire time I don't want it. How am I going to fight this with no lawyer when she files? I will stay in this house until I am forced by court to leave even though her aunt owns it and we pay her rent for it.
I have $3000.00 school money waiting for me what do I do with it? put it in the bank like usual? I am making her do the leg work and her family will help her they are VERY supportive. keep doing plan A until I'm forced to leave? I'm beyond lost right now.

Jon, have you read any of the other threads on here? That is word for word what everyone here knew that she would say because that is what all waywards say when they discover that their BS is trying to stop their A. You talking to the BW of her AP will end the A.

DO NOT talk divorce with her. Proceed exactly as you have been doing and follow the advice of the good and experienced people on this site that have taken the time out of their lives to try to help you successfully manuever through this mess. We have all been there.

Nothing has changed in your plan since last night or this morning. If her family is willing to assist and even finance the demise of a family that your children will grieve for all of their lives, then they are not friends of yours or your M. You don't need them to save your M.

Please don't panic. Do not stay anywhere but your home. If your WW wants to proceed with a D, let her but let her know that you will not assist in ending your M because you do not want it to end. I highly doubt that she will follow through.

The boards get slow over the weekend so don't despair. It may take awhile but someone will respond to you. Come here and vent. You have been doing fine. Don't change anything at this point no matter what she says or does.

God's Blessings,

Say

I am 100% sure she is going to file, she talked it over with her entire family and they are paying for the lawyer.

how can I not discuss divorce? thats all she is going to be talking about. She may not even discuss it and just give me the papers by surprise one day, (which is what i expect).

Jonpen,

It's expected that she'd blow up and say she's going to divorce you. All WS do that when exposed. You can see exactly the same reaction of other WS after exposure in numerous threads of this forum. Her fantasy is being destroyed and she's just having a tantrum. Don't listen to what she has to say. It's just noise.

Don't talk to her about divorce. Just say that you don't talk about divorce and go to another room. Don't go stay at a friends. She may change locks and get you out of the house. Don't promise her anything about custody or abandonment. Don't dignify her divorce aspirations by entertaining such deals. You just don't talk about divorce.

Keep busting the A. Once you kill the A you are going to have a much better chance to turn things around. Stick to plan A and continue to put pressure on the A. Stay strong my friend.

--ElCamino72

Is there a history of adultery and divorce in your WW's family?

God's Blessing'S

Say

You just don't talk about D. Everytime she brings up the subject change it or say "I don't talk about divorce" and change the subject. Like a broken record. If she gets abusive just go to another room.

Like everybody says around here: your M can survive her anger but not the A.

Don't worry about what she and her relatives may or may not do. That's out of your control. Just keep your eyes open and your ears close to the ground to watch their moves.

After the dust settles and the OM is out of the picture she may not even go through with the D.

--ElCamino72

You do what you can to get a lawyer, and you get her for abandonment if she files. I don't care what you promised her. She promised to spend the rest of her life with you and not sleep with other men. You shouldn't be the only one bound to what you say.

That being said, IF THERE IS NO AFFAIR, THERE IS NO REASON FOR HER TO DIVORCE. I thought my wife was going to file, but she never did. Waywards always blow up at exposure. It usually dies down after a couple of weeks. Just avoid relationship talk right now and try to keep from freaking out. Your WW is a emotional basketcase right now. She doesn't know what she'll do 10 minutes from now.

ok guys, my wife may not be a good wife, but she is a VERY good mother. The other guy is out, after his wife found out he told my WS that he was done it's over no more contact.
She was obviously devistated and after she exploded and went off on me, she came back 2 hours later and apologized for being so hurtful and angry, but said she does still want a divorce and wants to be civil. I said I will only do what I legally have to because I don't want the divorce.
I am not going to get her for abandonment or even try to fight her at all. I will get half of everything if she goes through with it and again only what I'm legally forced to do. Truly I am actually at peace and happy right now because I will be ok either way.
If I can't save our marriage (and i will try for however long it takes), then oh well I lost the love of my life but also lost a lying cheater at the same time. I am having tons of fun now that I moved back home playing with the kids. I took them to the playground today and she almost came but decided to take a nap instead. So whats my next move?

oh and saynomore yes, I am the ONLY man in the family. She has her mamaw (husband passed away) her mom commited adultry and is divorced, and has had around 5 BF's since her divorce but that was 13 years ago. Her aunt which has helped us SO much financially and helping my WS emotionally is not married. She has 2 younger sisters also, so 6 females and me that live within half a mile of one another, now can you see what I'm up against?

Just continue what you are doing. Be the best you that you can be. Be the man she fell in love with and create a home and family environment that is impossible for her to walk away from. Walk the walk. Show her that you have changed and if she still walks away, you have become a better person and a better father.

God's Blessings,

Say

I can. Show them all how a man that loves his W and children honors his vows. At some point you may be able to talk with your WW about the fact that having an intact family whose mom and dad have worked hard to learn to love each other would be the very best thing for your kids. I know that things seem hopeless tonight but exposure has killed the A. She is justifying her adultery by saying that the M was over before the A and she still wants a divorce. You have a chance now to save your M. Go for it.

God's Blessing's,

Say

Her family thinks I am just being desperate and clinging to hope when there is none by moving back in and cleaning the house and being really nice to my wife. which I don't bring her gifts or anything like that just ask her "would you like something to eat?" or "how was your day at work?" I am still fairly certain she will file for D but thats ok if she does, I'm expecting it and will deal with that when it comes but now I am back in the house with my kids and enjoying MY HOME.

The person you originally married may be a very good mother. But your WW is not. She has endangered the well being of your children by engaging in an A. Your kids can be severely affected by her actions. That's not what a good mother would do. Stop justifying her actions.

Great. Don't stop snooping though. She might still try to re-establish the A. She'll be in withdrawal for a while since she lost the fix for her addiction. Expect her to be in an ugly mood for quite a while. Just be there for her until she gets better.

Don't fall into the "civil divorce" trap. My WW tried that on me and I erroneously went for it. Don't make that mistake. She might try to glorify D by saying you are going to do whats best for your kids. Stay strong. Just say you don't talk about divorce. I made a lot of mistakes in regards to the divorce threats including LBs. The best solution in my case was to divert any D conversation.


Again, you're better off avoiding conversations about D. Make no mistake, D is ugly so don't put yourself in a position of disadvantage. If it comes to it, you'd be going to war. You are going to have to fight or you'd be eaten alive. So forget about the being nice mentality when it comes to D.

You might want to do a free consultation with a lawyer. Try to find one in your area that will do the initial meeting free of cost.

Be at peace and happy but stay guarded. You'll be a better person regardless of the outcome.

Keep doing that. It will keep you sane. Your kids need you so be there for them.

OKAY. Forget about what you think she will do. You will be surprised that the vets on here have seen this MANY MANY MANY times before. Don't listen to what she is saying. AGAIN it is FOG BABBLE. That is an alien language that is spoken on Planet Affair and although it sounds a lot like english, it is NO WHERE close. Here on MB we have interpreters that can translate FOG-BABBLE in to english for you IF YOU WOULD JUST LISTEN.

You have a PLAN now STICK WITH IT. What you do is Plan A. Even if she files for D and serves you with the papers, it doesn't mean it is over. Dr H has even counseled people who were M and got a quick D and then want to R. Don't give up.

Agree with Scotland. Do not mind her reaction or her relatives. Keep in mind that you and your kids are her family so forget about her relatives.

Their actions are not under your control. But you do have control of your actions. Choose to be a better man. So make the necessary changes with Plan A and demonstrate with actions what a good husband you are. That is going to benefit you no matter what the outcome of this situation turns out to be.

She doesn't have a plan. She is just reacting. But you my friend have the advantage of having a plan and this is the time to execute it. Keep up plan Aing and be consistent. Your chances are going to be much better if you stay within the plan.

I made a lot of mistakes in the first few months after D-Day before I found MB. It cost me dearly. It wasn't until I really bought into MB that I was able to get a grip of the emotional roller coaster.

Again, stick to the plan. Stay calm, be strong. Listen to what the pros around here have to say. Man up and fight for your family. Make it happen.

--ElCamino72

I will be sticking to plan A the entire time.
I KNOW she is going to file. She said I am in denial that the D is coming because everytime she mentions D I divert the conversation.

Good on you, Jonpen. Keep up the Plan A, meet her emotional needs as best you can (and you better know what those are by now!), avoid Love Busters, be Radically Honest about yourself with her as much as possible (except about your snooping, but you know that), ensure she's the only one to meet your needs, hold out hope...

Three weeks. To six months. That's the withdrawal time for your spouse. You can't do very much to make Love Bank deposits, but you sure as heck can avoid big withdrawals. Be available. Be compassionate. Be her lighthouse.

You can show her the way home despite her stubborn refusal to fix the marriage she destroyed.

FOGGY BABBLEY BOO

Listen up again. You are doing a great job. This is how she was going to react. This is what you want. If she had done NOTHING that would have been very bad. You got a rise out of her, don't get scared. It means that what you are doing is getting through the fog. Good, put pressure on her A.

It is perfectly okay for you to figure out what is your legal rights if she were to file for D. You can talk to an attorney so you have the knowledge you need to not worry about this any longer.

It will also help you in case you have to go to Plan B. Plan A is not a be all end all. It should have a time limit. You aren't close to that yet and there is a chance that Plan A will be enough for your sitch.

Jon,

Many BS were POSITIVE that their WS was going to file and.....they didn't. Just plan-A your butt off and enjoy the situation being home with your kids. Her mom had multiple boyfriends in not many years. Is that the life that you want for your children. Fight this by being the best husband and father that you can be.

Fill out the emotional needs questionaire the way that you think that she would and do your very best to fill those needs. You have managed to make her laugh a few times in the last 24 hours in the very worst of circumstances.

Don't lead her to believe that you will roll over when it comes to custody. Given her family history, you will want to have joint custody at the very least.

God's Blessing's,

Say

So Doormat (or any other Vet), When she does file for divorce what do i do? I will stick with plan A until I am legally forced out of this house. And right now she is saying "If nothing else we will agree on joint custody" "I want you to finish school and I will help all I can not for you but so the kids can have a better life" These are things she is saying but I'm sure when her lawyer says "fight fight! take him for all he has!" because thats what they are paid for, what then? like I said I have 0 income she is only one working because I am in school FT.
She is going to try to have me talk about how were going to split things up, I will avoid ALL D talk until I am served with papers, and then I will ONLY talk about what I HAVE to. I know during a D it's going to be a WAR, no matter what she might want it's going to be whatever the lawyers tell her to do, obviously she is easily influenced.
I like to think in some fantasy world we will agree on everything and it will be painless, but I doubt this is the case. She wouldn't want the kids full custody for many reasons, A: she don't have the time to watch them and I am the only one that can be with them while she is working. B:They do not listen to a word she says, I am the only one that they listen to and it's very stressful to her. C:she knows I am a good father and does not want the kids to not see me all the time. D:her biggest fear is that I will HATE her after this and won't be able to be anywhere near her, she keeps saying she still loves me and cares about meand still wants us to be at the parties etc together.
See my parents and her parents both when they split the father grew apart from the kids because the other had full custody and could not stand to be around the X she hates this more than anything.
I really don't care what else happens but I do want joint custody of the kids and if she does start trying to fight for things I will somehow get a lawyer and fight back HARD.

Jon,

Did you even read my last post? Why don't you start at the beginning of your thread and read ALL of it over. Sometimes that is very helpful.

I think it is also very important to let your WW know that you are interested in recovering your M and will do whatever it takes to do that but she does not need to expect you to remain best friends if she proceeds with this D. Blow up her fantasy of an amicable D and continue to show her what a loving M with you could be like. She is very likely not to ever file.

Read some of the threads here. Many will give you hope. All A's are the same. All waywards follow a script. I did not believe that 2 1/2 years ago. I believe it now.

God's Blessing's,

say

There is no such thing as a "civil divorce." There is such a thing as agreeing to getting ****ed over in a divorce settlement. If she files and you hit her for abandonment, and you get custody, she will unfile. Understand? Sometimes you have to demonstrate a tough love and fighting for your family instead of being a limp you know what conflict avoider.

Again, just wait, she probably won't file if OM is out of the picture, and if she does, she probably won't go through with it if OM is out of the picture. The last things she wants to be is a single mom. She thinks that filing for D and making herself available might convince the OM to do the same.Stay the course. Keep up with plan A. Don't back down. You do what is right for YOU. She doesn't have your best interests in mind, so you shouldn't bend over backwards to be amenable to her.

JP- Okay, so what are you going to do this weekend?

You will wake up tomorrow and Plan A your wife. How will you do that?

You will:

1 Take great care of yourself
2 You will LOOK good
3 You will smell good
4 You will play with your children(maybe pull out a board game or something)
5 You will do things around the house
6 You will smile and laugh
7 What are you going to make for dinner?
8 Is there something around the house that needs to be fixed or done that you have been putting off? If so, do it.
9 You will eat well and get some sleep(I know it is hard to do but you have to take care of yourself)
10 You will tuck your children in to bed and you will sleep in your own bed.
11 DON'T GIVE UP.

Then what should you do Sunday? Repeat the above steps.

I don't think your WW will be able to serve you papers on a weekend.

What should you do on Monday? I would suggest you find out if you can get a free legal consult so you can be ready and not fear what would happen if she were to file for D. All the while Plan A.

Take it minute by minute, hour by hour. You are better off than you were 36 hours ago. See that. Be proud of what you did in that short of time and who knows in 2 years you may be amazed at where you were now and what you accomplished.

MB isn't a quick fix, it is your best chance. Hold on to that. Even if it goes the D way, you will know that you did EVERYTHING you could. That is how I get through.

You can Plan A and still disabuse her of that notion.

"Darling, I love you more than words can say. I love the children we have. I love the life we have built together. I believe we can have a legendary, amazing marriage if we follow Dr. Harley's program for marital recovery.

"My love for you is too great to ever divorce amicably. If it ended, I could never see or speak to you ever again. I could not endure the pain.

"So I will keep fighting for you, just like I am right now. To show you the man I can be. To show you I can meet your needs. To show you that I have learned to never be the source of your unhappiness. To protect and cherish you, 'til death do us part."

Then the hard part. Follow through on those words EVERY SINGLE DAY FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

Note I'm not a vet. I'm just learning to separate the wheat from the chaff of advice here... and inevitably those things that are consistent with Dr. Harley's procedure for recovery lead to better results than those which aren't.

BINGO. QFT.

Your so right Scotland, thank you! you all know how I am thinking better than I do, you have seen it, heard it, and lived it. I am just NOW experiencing it. The OM is 100% out of the picture, My WS has been out of contact with him for around a week, she knows it's over with them. He contacted her today only to tell her I contacted his wife, thats when she BLEW up and I am proud of how i handled that, so well she was VERY apologetic all day about it :)I will try to get free consultation asap. She will be gone all day tomorrow because "she had to get away" her Aunt is taking her out. We still talk and laugh like nothing even happened but she still keeps trying to bring up D which I deflect everytime and say "I don't want the divorce you do" she said "you HAVE to talk about the divorce and how were going to split everything" I said "I don't HAVE to talk about anything and I won't talk about the D" then I changed the subject and we were back to talking normal again

You rock, Jon! You have grown so much in the last two days.

God's Blessings,

Say

Doormat thats good advice. Next time she says she wants to be civil after the divorce i will say "I would not be able to be around you due to the pain I would endure everytime I seen you, because I love you so much, I do not want to be the source of your unhappiness and I made a vow to love and cherish you til death do us part and I will honor that vow"

Jon,

Calm down. Ease up on the D concerns.

Initially I made the mistake of talking about the mythical "amicable divorce" with my WW. This turned into an almost daily conversation where we started to plan for D arrangement that would be "beneficial" for all of us. Needless to say, that was a big mistake.

Then I started to be firm with her that I wouldn't agree to D. At some point I made her clear that D conversations were hurting me. It became a boundary for me and eventually I made a decision to stop tolerating it. She'd still pull the D card everytime she wanted to intentionally hurt me.

I did consult with a lawyer (best in town) but mostly to be informed, prepared and to block her from using that lawyer. I never told my WW that I went to a lawyer though.

One day she started to talk about D and I called her bluff. I asked her what was stopping her. I also stated that I wasn't going to lay down for a civilized D. After that she started to be more careful about D threats.

I am not saying you do that now. Just be aware that D threats may be a form of manipulation and all WW use it to justify their A. Especially during withdrawal.

How long does a typical D takes in your state? Consider that if you contain the A and stick to plan A she may be out of withdrawal before a D can be finalized. Additionally, she may have more to lose financially in a D - especially if you keep custody. So even if she files, she may reconsider it after she realizes what it's going to cost.

Let go of the fear of WW's reactions - including her filing for D. Your are just starting so get into the mentality that this is going to be a long and hard process. The best way to make it through it to focus on the plan.

--ElCamino72

Well I live in TN so here we have a law that says we have to go through 6 month counseling for the kids b4 the D is final. I will deflect ALL D talk.

That law gives you the benefit of time - where I come from, you can be divorced in as little as 2 months. That means if you don't cooperate with the D, it could take well over a year to finalize. So if she files for D (which may not happen anyways), you can have time to gain her love back. Be guarded but do not be overly concerned at this point.

I think you may be better off by deflecting D conversations for a little while. You may be giving her a weapon to hurt you if you respond to her D arguments. You can consider to wait and see for a few days before responding anything other than "I don't talk about D. There's a new show on TV tonight. Wanna watch it?". Right now she doesn't care about how you'd feel if you D so it may not be worth it to express your feelings about this issue. Avoid showing your weaknesses.

Her ideas about D might just die off when she understands that the A gig is over. So make it difficult for the A to revive. She might try to contact OM so don't underestimate the possibility that he can be back in the picture.

You are doing good in working to gain your M back. Keep it up.

--ElCamino72

Jon,

I just read through your whole thread. Erase from your mind the idea that you can have an amicable divorce. That's a fantasy that only exists in Hollywood.

Here's the reality if you do divorce:

It will hurt like he77 for a while. You will go through an anger stage where you literally hate her and hope she gets run over by a truck.

You will then get over that and accept the new reality.

You will then be grateful she's not longer in your life and feel indifference towards her. You will literally not think about her and even be annoyed when people ask you questions about her as if you know what's going on in her life. You don't and you really don't care.

You will lament that your kids live in split homes, but you accept the new reality and only talk to your ex when you absolutely have to. You'll likely meet someone else and fall in love again and may even see her as a massive improvement over your current wife.

In other words, life goes on.

If you do divorce it will be ugly, but I encourage you to settle quickly on a shared custody arrangement since that is the greatest threat to men. Unless you have some solid hard hitting evidence that she's a bad mom they will not take the kids from her or give you full custody.

However, if you do go down that path, be prepared to fight a merciless war.

Now, that being said, I do hope she comes to her senses. I merely wish to say to you that acting like a man is more attractive to a WW than anything else. Being weepy and whiny is not. I say that being guilty of doing exactly that. I did not follow the advice given to me on these forums and fell for the "lets make this amicable" dog and pony show.

It's a fantasy.

I think there is nothing wrong with drawing a line in the sand and clearly saying that you will not talk about divorce and don't want her to bring the subject up to you anymore. If she wants a divorce, then she can discuss it with your lawyer. Bluff if necessary, though I do advise you to consult one just in case.

How old are your kids?

Read other threads on here. There's many men who have been in your shoes, dealt with the withdrawl of a WW, and recovered their marriages. I truly hope that happens for you.

When she feels miserable or says that she doesn't want to be in a loveless marriage, agree with her. "I don't want to be in a loveless marriage either. We can build a new one together."

There's a lot of fog babble that will come your way. Imagine Charlie Brown's teacher when you're hearing it.

Seriously, read other threads on here and see how typical your situation is. It will help you learn lessons you can use for yourself.

Just understand that no matter what happens, life goes on and you will survive and be ok.

Not saying it's easy, but you'll be ok.

Follow the MB advice. Don't be surprised if he tries to contact her sometime or vice versa.

Don't react to her blow ups. Expect them. She's going to act crazy.

Do not stop snooping. She's not trustworthy right now.

Do not be ashamed of snooping.

Act with confidence even though you don't feel it.

Google "The 180 and Infidelity". It's decent guide on how to act during this time. It's a guide. It's not hard and fast rules.

But most importantly, enjoy your kids. Act as if life is going on for you and she can join you or stew in her misery if she chooses, but you will choose to live.

Best of luck.

I am going to keep trying. sometimes I just feel like giving up and letting it all happen, We all know how much easier that would be, but I will fight.

the A is over. they only talked for 2 months and she was on "In love" for 2 weeks, they only had sex 1 time. The are not my assumptions but facts from the details of the conversation between them. So that being said she will hopefully come out of the fog sooner than usual.

Honestly, she seems to be talking about D TOO much for me to believe her. It's like she's just throwing it in her face because she blames you for interfering in her relationship with OM. My WW used to throw the D word out alot. She made a point to look through the yellow pages for attorneys right in front of me, just because she thought it would hurt me. Again, this was right after exposure, so she was angry as heck and looking to lash out. If she does file, you've still got up to a year to convince her to drop the motion. Time is still on your side, and if OM is no longer in the picture, you've got a pretty good chance.

I strongly suggest that you don't commit yourself to any "deals" or "agreements" with an active WW.

You got such good advice from so many. This takes time to turn around. Don't dispair.

I feel so discouraged today. I keep wondering if this is what I really want. Everyday I feel totally different. I seem to think I am an attractive man, I am in shape, I'm active and I think I'm handsom. I see so many other beautiful woman I can't help but wonder. . . Se my wife let herself go. When we got married she was 5'8 and weighed 110 lbs and was a knockout! I have always been attracted to petite girls. After the 2 kids she is now up to 185 lbs and still has stretch marks very bad.
She may diet for a month and lose 5-10 lbs but then she is just right bad to eating bad and she NEVER exercises.
Physically I'm not that attracted to her anymore but I do love her with all my heart and she is the mother of my 2 kids and when we used to do stuff together we had a blast. Thats what attracts me to her. I just keep asking myself "is it really worth it?" Some days my whole heart is in trying to repair the marriage other days like today I just don't even care.

She just called me for the first time in who knows when to "check in on the kids" she hasn't called me since this was going on she has always just text me. Not sure if it's a good sign or not because she is with her aunt (the one helping finance the divorce) but it was still unusual for her to call.
I am just now seeing "the big picture" as to how much work this is actually going to take and it makes me wonder if it will even be worth it.

Jon, try not to read anything in to anything that she says or does. You have gotten excellent advice. Read back through it and read as many of the other threads start to finish that you have time to. This journey is not an easy one. Some days you will feel like you are going crazy.

Plan A is for you, Jon. It is to make you a better person, husband, father. Train yourself not to expect a positive reaction from her to anything you do. Find the thread on reverse babble and read it.

Someone said this process is a crockpot not a microwave. Truer words were never spoken. You have made tremendous progress since you first posted. Try not to become discouraged and if you do come here first.

God's Blessings,

Say

I have looked for the reverse babble thread and can't find it

ok nm last reply I found it and thats good stuff. i will be a professional reverse babbler now.

About your up and down feelings on if it is worth saving, I am going to tell you that that is totally NORMAL. I go through those feelings almost daily, sometimes in minutes. What I try to do is focus on what brought me here in the first place and why I started it, I wanted to save my M.

I don't think that this has been mentioned to you on this thread yet, so I will state it for you. You have a huge chance of thinking about and even committing an RA(REVENGE affair). The way you feel about other women may lead you to that. BE VERY CAREFUL when you talk to women. I was a person who before my WH told me that he was going to leave me, I wouldn't find other men sexually attractive. I have been with my WH since I was 16 so, I had never thought about what it would be like to have SF with another man. Don't get me wrong, I could say, "He has a nice smile. That man had nice eyes." But that was as far as it went. Now since I found out about my WH's A, I see when guys are hitting on me(or I just think they are HAHAHAHAHA) and I have even started to have thoughts like, "What would it be like to date that man?"

You don't date while you are married. If you get a D, there will be plenty of time for you to date. Think about how unfair it would be to that other girl if your wife came back and you dumped her, crushing her feelings.

You really have done very well so far, focus on your plan.

ya I thought about how unfair to the other women it would be and so I haven't pursued nor will I any other relations. Why do you think she called me to "just check in?"

Jon,

You did awesome by revealing the affair to her lover's wife. Now for the affair to completely end, all contact must stop. No working or seeing each other, no texts, emails, phone calls, etc...everything has to be open. As most wayward spouses, she is probably very addicted to this man, so she will suffer a period of withdrawal. As hard as it might be, you will have to support hurt through this extremely painful process of giving up her lover. Communication is key. See if you can figure out what he provided for her that you did not. Did he listen to her? Did he compliment her? Did he pay attention to her? YOU need to fulfill all those needs that the lover was doing. You are going to have to do it fast & furiously as well.

I know you're suffering. It's like death to find out that your spouse is in love with another person, but your spouse is also in a very volatile state as well. Without her new found love, she may feel that life isn't worth living; it's very hard. Wayward spouses are more likely to commit suicide than their victims. She's suffering too. If you had a happy marriage, she would've never fallen for another man outside your marriage. As hard as it might be, start taking care of the needs that he has been fulfilling, then she won't need her lover anymore. She is still there with you, so on some level, she would like for you to be with her first. Even if she doesn't say it, go by her actions. Try so hard. Try harder than you ever have, but as long as your wife is still working with him, the affair continues. She must have no contact whatsoever with him at all. It sounds like that he is already on the right tract by ignoring her, so if that keeps up, you have a great chance of getting your wife back & having a better marriage than ever. Stay away from your computer, ignoring her, and give her everything emotionally she desires. Emotional needs are the number one reason women leave men, so make sure you are fulfilling every emotional need your wife has no matter how hard it is for you right now. You can save this marriage because her lover doesn't seem too committed at this moment.

Except your wife's failures too. It may take months for her to completely let go of him, but if you keep fulfilling her emotional needs and paying attention to her, you will eventually have her back to yourself for good. Then you will have to continue to fulfill her emotional needs for the rest of your life. A small gift from you to your wife to keep your marriage happy for a lifetime.

Best of luck to you both.

HS,

Love your handle. I see this is your very first post. Might be a good idea to just read for awhile or post your own story. Even those of us who have been hanging around here for several years like to defer to the "experts" who know the MB ways inside out. To begin, you will find the AP (affair partner) called many things on these forums but NEVER, EVER "lover." I prefer POSOM in the case of an OM. (other man) Lover is extremely hurtful for those of us who have been vistims of adultery and that would be just about all of us.

Good job on finding that thread, Jon. Now practice.

God's Blessings,

Say

She just called me again to "check in on the kids" we talked casually for a bit, but she didn't mention the D at all today. I told her I was giving the kids a bath (thats the first time I have given them a bath without her helping) I also got thier church clothes laid out and told her I was taking them to church in the morning even though my older brother wasn't going (she always thought I went to church just to hang out with him) I'm doing things small steps at a time. I had originally told her we could switch off staying in the house like every other night, but tomorrow i am going to tell her I am not up for doing this and I am staying her, she can stay somewhere else if she likes.

ok now this is VERY wierd! she called me AGAIN! she is just calling to talk this time not about D.

She is still getting on his facebook page and looking at all of the OM's pictures all the time.
I did get an interesting note from the OM's spouse that said "Me and you have never talked ok? NEVER, My husband never said your wife was in love with him he told me it wasn't like that at all, and yes me and my husband are trying to work out our marriage" in response to a note i sent her that said "my wife is still in love with your husband and she is still trying to contact him. Are you all working out your marriage?"
my WS also just bought a laptop tonight so there goes all chances of me monitoring her activity. So now what? just keep sticking to plan A?

LOL Good idea, Jon but be more tactful when you tell her. Tell her that you want to work on your M and you can't do that if you are staying in different places. Tell her that the best thing for your kids is to have both mom and dad in the house cause they need both of you.

Keep up the good work.

God's Bessings,

Say

Everytime I tell her "I want to work on this marriage" etc.. she says "there is no marriage to save, me and you are done and I want a divorce" I usually say "Well i don't want a divorce and I DO want to save this marriage" I will tell her when it comes up that the best thing for the kids is for both of us to be in the house for them. She is going to stay at her aunt's house which is our neighbor's I'm sure because I told her I am going to sleep in the bed and she said "I can't sleep in the same bed with you, I do not love you like that anymore" We do have 2 beds and I may mention that we can sleep in seperate beds but we would still be in same house, we can see how that goes.

Don't tell her you want to work on the marriage. She knows. Just let it happen in time.

Wish me luck today She got a laptop so no more snooping the comp was my #1 source of info before. Plan A continues.

Don't offer a solution to the bed situation, Jon. Let her come up with that on her own if she wants to come home. Married people should sleep in the same bed and you would be if she had not brought a third party into your M.

Good luck today. You are doing great.

God's Blessings,

Say

Everytime I truly think about whats going on it breaks me apart inside. Just knowing I love my WIFE and she doesn't love me.
I don't show it on the outside but inside I'm being ripped apart. I just wish the fog would lift, they have not been in contact at all and the OM said he is not going to contact my WS and the OM's spouse told me also that they are going to try and fix their marriage. How much longer do you think it will be before the fog lifts? They only met for sex 1 time, they were talking for 2 months but just on the comp not in person. She probably only fell "in love" with him for 2 weeks at most. The A is over, he was just using her for sex obviously but how long b4 she realizes it?

Well today didn't go so well at all. When she got back from her trip with her aunt she had her wedding rings off. I told her I am staying in the house she said "you already agreed to switch houses every now and again" I said well I think it's best for the kids if we are both in same house.
She said "the kids won't know because they will be in bed when I leave" I said we can switch off using the couch and she said "it's to wierd staying in this house with you" I said "we have stayed in the same house for 5 years and slept in the same bed for 5 years how is it wierd"? she said I am not sleeping in the same bed or house with you.

I said "it doesn't mean were going to do anything or try anything it's just a place to sleep" her aunt is going to have war she has a very bad temper and I agreed to switch houses to her but now I'm not going to. she also said "we need to figure what half of the stuff you get and have an amicable divorce"

I said "I am not going to cooperate with a divorce because I don't want it,I love you way to much to be amicable because if this ends I could never see you or speak to you again, it would her me to much". she said "we need to be amicable for the kids" I said "thats the reason I can't be amicable, how could I ever look the person that destroyed our family in the face again"? she went speechless and thats when she left. Before the divorce talk we were joking around and playing with the kids. She bought a laptop and I was helping her get internet connection she said " I don't want you putting anything on it to spy on me" I said "that really hurts that you would even think that, I am trying to help you get this working and show you how to do it and now that you said that I will let you do it yourself". she said "I'm sorry for saying that, I just want you to teach me how to do it".
so I showed her how and we laughed together and played with the kids, but she stayed on the laptop the whole time while me and kids were having a good time in other room. Did I do anyhting I shouldn't have, or did I handle it ok? What do you all think about this situation, is it still possible to save this marriage?

I think you are allowing her to drag you into too much relationship talk. You owe her no explanation. Tell her very briefly what you are or are not going to do and then give her the old "Would you like a cookie?"

Please read up on plan A. Your expectations are way too high. Again, Plan A is for you. Provide a pleasant home environment, look good, be kind, have fun with your kids. Invite her to join in if she does not, let her miss out.

Jon, please don't panic. Your wife is in the height of her fog stage. Her A is probably over. PLAN A HER!!!! Read your whole thread again and read other people's. You can do this. You are expecting too much too soon.

God's Blessings,

Say

I didn't really talk about the raltionship at all, and I was using lines from the other vets they told me to use when she said these certain things.
I know it's going to take time but I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel yet. I read and read plan A and I didn't use any LB's and I told her the reason i won't be amicable is because I love her so much. This is the advice from the others I am using. I try to take it one day at a time and I don't show her that it bothers me at all.

The sleeping arrangements conversation was unneccesary and would be viewed by your WW as inflamatory.

There is no light at the end of the tunnel in Plan A, Jon. You are doing this for you. It is often successful in helping to bring a wayward out of the fog but it is mainly for you. Reread the articles on it and hopefully some of the pros will chime in to help you to understand it. Any expectations sabatoge your efforts. You are not making these changes in yourself for any other reason except to make yourself a better person. If your WW defogs enough to see what she is missing, then R will begin. If not, you will be able to tell your kids that you did everything that you possibly could to keep your family together.

I am praying for you.

God's Blessings,

Say

Ok guys, she got the divorce but she is practically giving me everything because she wants out. She is going to pay me spousal support, the schedule for the kids is great, I get like 75% of the stuff in the house. She even has me still living at the house.... She told me thanks for trying so hard to save the marriage, and that she wants to feel love for me again but she can't.
I have accepted the fact that it is over, and I have became such a better person from all the advice you all have given me, and I will find someone who will appreciate the knowledge and abilities I have learned. She knows I didn't want the divorce and my kids will always know how hard I fought to save it.
I will still keep being the same person I have no become forever. I got the car in my name, the bills were split evenly and she is going to make the payments on my part until I get out of school then I will begin paying my half. I thank all of you from the bottom of my heart for your support and prayers, and as much as I wanted to save my family from this it has already happened. It won't be long before I join the life after divorce forum

Hmmm... Still sounds foggy to me.

Make sure you get that all in writing before her fog clears - could be to your advantage later on.

Jon, she did all that over night? What is the waiting period in your state? Secure the deal if you can just in case but continue to Plan A the best you can. You do not have to cooperate with divorce proceedings.

Make your home and family life with your kids a warm and inviting place. She has filed while fogged. This is far from over. Wouldn't 100% of the time with your kids without wondering who else was going to be around them or even living with them be best? Go about your business and let things cool.

God's Blessings,

Say

Alright I will, and yes it's all in writing I thought the same way, get it in writing while she is in the fog she said I treated her to bad before this to ever come back from it (the usual WS script) I will still keep doing Plan A my entire life whether with her or someone else. and I agree saynomore 100% of the time would be best and I will still keep trying until I'm kicked out of the house.
Me and her will be living in the same house for awhile, and were still waiting to see if we have to go to 6 month counseling or not ( I hope we do). We sit up last night talking for 4 hours about her feelings etc... and I know thats breaking the golden rule but I accepted the fact it was over and I kind of just set there while she talked.

She said now and even after the divorce I can stay here in our home and we could take turns sleeping on couch. Would you advise this? See right now we are on very friendly terms and this is good because she doesn't feel intimidated by me, meaning she would sit and watch a movie with me, or stay up late just talking to me etc.... I am now viewed as a "friend" and for the meantime should I just go along with everything she is saying? I still want to save my family but I am coming out of this with a VERY good deal either way. I will remain her "friend" and be there for her and do things with her while I'm in the house.

Hi Jon,

If YOU want to D then it's perfectly OK. You have good reasons to do it: your WW's adultery. So go ahead an do it. But don't try to make it like she's the only one going for D. Because you're playing her game and being cooperative with the break up of your marriage.

Plan A is not being a doormat. If you really want to D then you don't need Plan A. You go to Plan D - end of story. Why would you stay home and be friends? If you're going to D then you might want to start with your new life ASAP.

OTOH, It's good that you got favorable D terms in writing. Did you get a document from her lawyer? Hold on to that because this may be something to leverage in the future.

BUT, if you don't want to D then you should start acting like it. Don't accommodate her wanting to D. Sleep in your bed like married people do. You just avoid conflict about that but be firm. IF you want to have a great marriage then you'd be looking for something more than friendship.

It's the future of your kids that is on the line here so make up your mind and commit to whatever plan YOU want to follow.

--ElCamino72

It's all part of her fantasy. I went on dates with my ex while she packed up the house. She gave me smidgeons of hope to get me to play along and be nice. Once she was out of the house she didn't want to hear from me at all.

What is your custody arrangment exactly?

You have to be very careful on the wording. If it isn't in writing, then it does't exist. If she's promising you that you'll get to see the kids much, then she's lying.

Also, if you're divorced, you're divorced. There's not sleeping under the same roof and being friends. When feelings start to die, you'll have hostility.

Why the heck do you have to take turns sleeping on the couch? It's your house. Even if it isn't, then you need to get your own place.

Sayno, she had already done it and I didn't know. She told me the "proposal" she gave her lawyer, which I am still waiting to see. The thing is she just wants out and doesn't care about any of the stuff, and she is paying me spousal support until I finish school, She also WANTS me to see the kids and the custody arrangement is, Mon-I have kids from 8:00 Am until 12:45 pm in which I then leave for school and won't get back until 10:00 pm. Tue-I have kids from 8:00 AM until 4:30 Pm, Wed I will have the kids all day and Thu I get them from 8:00 am til 12:00 pm, Fri I get them from 8:00 am til 12:00 pm and 6:00 pm til 10:00 pm, Sat I get them from 8:30 til 5:00 and every other Sat I will get them all day, Sun I get them from 8:00 Am until 4:00 PM.
This schedule fits perfectly between my school schedule and her work schedule and I assume she did that because she knows NO ONE else can watch the kids at these times.
I will keep doing plan A while i am here and I will not be Plan Doormat. She knows how I feel about the D and I have made it very clear, but I cannot afford my own lawyer so I am forced to use hers and accept her proposal or get eatin alive. I am getting most the stuff in the house, and she is going to cover my insurance still until I get a job. I will keep sleeping in my bed, until I am forced out.

That's not plan A. You are reacting to her which is not going to help recover your marriage. I think you have misunderstood what plan A means. You don't want to do plan A for the rest of your life or with "someone else" in the future like you've said. Plan A is only a temporary strategy for trying to R a failed M after an A.

If you want to recover your M using plan A, you can listen to her relationship talk if she wants to unload. You just avoid bring it yourself up. As a WW, she's going to say a lot of absurd things and blame you for the failure of your M.

You don't necessarily need to agree, argue or get caught in educating her. You can acknowledge the way she feels right now by saying something like: "I can understand why you'd feel like that" and be there for her. That's what worked the best for me in plan A. Anything else was just like pouring gas in a fire.

So, do you want to recover your M? If yes, then try to go back and read the excellent advice you've gotten and EXECUTE accordingly. MB is the best chance if you want to save your M. There's a fine line between having to deal with D for the rest of your life and recovering into a great M. Your window of opportunity is closing.

What is your goal? If R your M is your goal then you need to get it right.

I did a lot of the same mistakes you're doing and believe me when I say that it cost me a lot of time and frustration. I realized that you can't be working towards D and R your M at the same time. It doesn't make sense and it just doesn't work.

--ElCamino72

I want to recover my M more than anything. What mistakes am I making? I can't force her to stay married if she doesn't want it I can and have showed her what a wonderful family and time we could have together. I was truly there for her last night and did just what you said about just agreeing with her and saying i can understand that. The bottom line is she has filed for D and i can't stop that I just have to see the proposal and either accept it or be forced to accept it.
For as long as I am in this house i will keep doing plan A. After the D I HAVE to see her and I HAVE to talk to her on account of the kids. I am still trying to save the M but she is the one paying for all the bills, my school, spousal support after the D and as i said she told me the exact details of the proposal which i am still waiting to confirm. We have another meeting with her lawyer Fri in which we are going over all the details, I am being FORCED to cooperate because if I don't accept this good proposal she might go back and make a new one that screws me royally.

If you haven't seen it then it could be just a tactic to get you to play nice.


You can sum it to: she wants me to help her in pursuing her A. She is offering me a wonderful D for both of us so that I can be out of the picture to convince OM to go back to her.

Listen, D is not going to be pretty like she's trying to sell you. Open your eyes.


She's heard you about your feelings about D. But your actions speak louder. If you continue to play into her D plans you're just contradicting yourself. You need to walk the walk or she won't respect you. Be consistent with your opinion about D.

You're not forced to do anything. It's too early in the process to know what really is going to happen. You shouldn't panic or act based on her actions. Don't give up if you still want to R your M.


Sleeping in your bed means squat if you hesitate on her D tactics. You don't need to agree to anything if you really don't want to D. Play it smart.

--ElCamino72

That custody arrangement sounds way too complicated. What happens when one of your schedules changes? Would you have to go back to the court to change those times? Be sure to talk to your own D lawyer before agreeing to anything.

Everytime I say "I am not going through with the divorce and I will not be civil and cooperate" she says "So your going to try and force me to be married to you and be miserable"? I said "I have learned not to be the source of your misery but the source of your happiness" She knows I have changed and told me so herself. I did argue for a little while last night, but I didn't use any LB's. I told her SHE is the one detroying the family and I am the one trying to save it. like i said there was alot said in the 4 hours we talked but today she has been laughing with me and playing with the kids like nothing is even going on.

You need to show her for a consistent period what a wonderful family she can have. You've been in plan A for too short. Additionlly, while she's in withdrawal, she won't let you deposit Love Units in her Love Bank. Right now, she's an addict in need of a fix. She will do crazy things. Don't entertain her impulses while she's in withdrawal. Ride it out.

I may not understanding you here, but it sounds like you are taking the D as a given. If you play it right, it may not finalize. Remember that failure is just one step ahead of hopelessness.

I not saying that you be a fool. If she keeps bringing the issue, tell her to give you a copy of the terms. At that point you may stall the process. It'd still be a good idea to get a lawyer. Beg, borrow or steal to pay for a consultation based on the copy of the proposal. You said that you have $3K for school. You may hold on to that money. A mishandled D can cost you a lot in the long run.

You can't be forced to cooperate. Don't get scared by these cheap tactics. You need to cover yourself but don't fall for the first bait she puts in front of you.

Now, have you tried to get a free legal consultation? If not, then go ahead and do that right now.

--ElCamino72

You may want to rephrase that. I think it may be too confrontational at this stage. Don't reveal your strategy. Just say "I don't talk about D. Boy, I'm thirsty. Do you want me to bring you something to drink?"

That's great! Keep that up.

--ElCamino72

I know my wife, and I know she wouldn't do anything to hurt or jeopordize our kids future (other than ruining our marriage) The thing is I DO accept the proposal if it comes down to it, but I don't accept the divorce. I don't want to try and FORCE her to love me which is the way she sees it, or I don't want to FORCE her to stay married to me.
This is still a tough decision even for me right now, and if not for my kids and the love me and my WS used to have i wouldn't even try. I am going to get a free consultation today, I had already planned for that.
I am very good at detecting lies (thats how i caught her to begin with) and I know she is not lying about the details of the proposal. She just WANTS OUT and is willing to lose everything to make it happen, she is at the height of her fog right now because the A is over. She still thinks like you said that by her becoming single him and her could be together, she even told me this last night. I am at my breaking point, this is ripping me apart.
I will be firm and consistant in letting her know i do not want nor agree to the divorce, and I can fight it. in my state the law says that in order for grounds of divorce both parties have to agree on ireconcilable differences, if one party doesn't agree then they can't accept it, though I'm sure her lawyer could find a way.
I have an apt for tomorrow for the free consultation. So heres my question, if the proposal is as perfect as she says it is, then should I accept it? Should I just continue with plan A while i am here and until the divorce is final?

Jon,

This is an absolutely horrendous parenting schedule they gave you. It looks like your WW's offer is an offer to keep JonPen as a handy baby sitter for her. Plus, IT IS LESS THAN WHAT YOU WOULD GET IF YOU SHOWED UP TO COURT. In custody, OVERNIGHTS ARE THE ONLY THING THAT COUNTS. The courts don't look at it as Jon had the kids from 8am -12pm. THey will look at it as daycare.

Your school schedule doesn't work? Well, change it. There is nothing that states that you should agree to anthing less than 50/50 shared custody. She and her lawyer will try to tell you that the dad never gets the kids, yada, yada, yada. All it is are tactics to get you to FALL ON YOUR SWORD and become EVERY OTHER WEEKEND DAD.

Looking at what they proposed, here's what I would do:

Tuesday over night - Kids are with Jonpen
Wednesday over night - kids with Jonpen
Friday over night - kids with Jonpen
Every other Saturday night, with Jonpen

In a two week schedule, this comes out to 4 overnights in one week, and 3 overnights in the other thus, it is 50/50. The BS about you keeping the kids until 5pm on Saturday then you have the kids at 8am on Sunday is absolute BS and is just her attorney trying to SLIP ONE BY YOU. HER ATTORNEY IS NOT YOUR FRIEND.

Agreed.

FWIW, if she's the sole wage earner in the family, you may be able to get another lawyer and have her pay the expenses - the "legal eagles" on this forum may be able to chime in with further information here.

STOP reacting to her.
Focus on yourself. Eliminate love busters and meet her top ENs.
Don't talk relationship talk.

Don't agree to swap bed and couch, or sleeping here and there, or any of that nonsense. You belong in the marital home in YOUR bedroom.

Quit helping her plan her divorce. Just STOP the relationship talk. You're enabling her wayward thinking. STOP IT.

When she brings up divorce, just say "I'm not interested in talking about a divorce. I'm getting some lemonade, would you like some?"

Why are you bothering with this? Stop the relationship talk.

Quit trying to educate her. That's a DJ and a SD. Read up on them.

Why would you support her wayward tendencies? Would you just quit it with this nonsense?

Read your posts from the weekend. They are all reacting to her. They are all about her plans for divorce. They are all about talking about the relationship.

Where do you talk about meeting her top ENs?
Where do you talk about catching yourself in a LB and rephrasing what you said, or changing your behavior?

You're focusing on the wrong things. You need to be acting, but you are reacting.

I try to say it over and over I am not interested in divorce, I will not discuss it, etc.... then she knows how to pry me open and get me to talk, she is a professional at it. She knows I love her and she knows when I see her upset now i will want to be there for her, so she uses this to manipulate me. She is in her room crying as we speak, she sits in there and cries all day at work and cries in the shower etc... ALL DAY. The only time she stops is when she is in front of the kids. I will still keep trying to go 1 day at a time and no more D talk or relationship talk.

JP- Turtle gave you some really good advice on re-focusing. Don't let her "manipulate" you. This is the old M you had and you are trying to show a new one. You need to figure out how to meet her EN's and DO THEM. I know that this seems like a lot and it sure is. A lot has changed in the few days since you found MB. It is a lot to grasp and you will make mistakes. Listen to what people are telling you on here. Bs's have a fog of their own when they get here. Sometimes we need some 2x4's beaten over our heads to get us to think about things.

I was talking to the school counselor at my kid's school today and he said, "Sometimes there are things that counselors say that you may not agree with, but you need to hear it. It is what is best for you and what is in your best interest. If you choose to act on it, is up to you since it is your life." That is also what I think about the people here too.

Maybe you should re-read your thread from the beginning and see what has happened in a short time. Stick to your Plan and listen to the vets, they know what they are talking about.

To get you focused on you and your actions.

What LBs were/are you guilty of?
What were/are you doing to help yourself recognize them and eliminate them?
How's that going?

Let me understand this completley.

A police officer came to your house, and you signed for the divorce papers?
This is called being served.
If this did not happen, there is no divorce.

Thats withdrawal.
As long as you can keep her away from OM, it will slowly go away.

Jonpen,

Boy, alot has happened over the weekend.

""She is in her room crying as we speak, she sits in there and cries all day at work and cries in the shower""

I would cry all the time too if I screwed up my life this bad and committed adultry with a man that no longer wants me, and CAN'T SEEM TO GET MY WAY!! Poor little me!!

There is a plan, like a 180 plan A, where you become indifferent to her. You acknowledge her presence, greet her with a nod, then go about your biz. Treat her with respect, but when discussion leans toward relationship, marriage, and divorce, you yawn, smile and leave the room.

Focus on the kids. Sleep in your bed, live in your house. Do your own thing, with the kids and on your own. If she wants to join in, that's fine.

She is still in big time withdrawal, and trying to deal with her humiliation and the realization of what she has done.

And about that laptop, GET SOME SPYWARE ON THAT BAD BOY!! Seriously. As long as you want the marriage to continue, snooping must stay a priority.

imho

kirk

Ok, i was guilty of mostly all LB's which now I am working hard on not doing. I did the angry outburst before, and now I listen very closely and react and respond to what she says. She knows I am there for her more now that I ever have been.
Used to when she would come to me to vent or with problems I would say things like "you shouldn't feel that way, or your doing something wrong" etc... Now I say things like "I truly understand how you would feel that way" and instead of giving advice or critisizing like I did in the passed I now put myself in her shoes to better see it through her eyes and I am honestly listening to her now. I will admit I'm still guilty of trying to "educate" her on certain things when we talk and thats a hard one to get passed.
She gets VERY VERY mad when it comes to me not wanting to cooperate or be civil during the divorce, I remain calm and try to change the subject. Last night she was yelling louder and more angry then I have ever seen her, but I stayed calm and did not raise my voice at all. She now sees me as a "friend" living in the same house with her, I don't know if this is good or bad? We do still play with the kids and joke around together, I help her with her new laptop alot which she said "I don't want you to think I am using you for your help, even though I appreciate your help no matter what you do the divorce is still happening" but then 5 mins later we'll be playing a game on her computer laughing and talking having a great time. I had her almost in tears she was laughing so hard today.

She also told me last night that 1 reason she could never love me the same is because "I could never live down what I done to you" Also I will admit that I was guilty of all LB's on almost a daily basis for a long time, thats the other reason she uses that she could never love me the same.
she said "you broke me down to a point beyond repair, I can NEVER come back from that" which again I admit I did that, but it doesn't justify what she has done and I am no longer doing the massive LB's like I did in the passed.

Dude, you are doing a GREAT job of identifying your LBs and getting rid of them. She has got to be noticing.

I will tell you, when a BS has been guilty of a lot of LBs as you were, when they change the WS notices but they are distrustful. They think the changes are temporary, and a trap to trick them into staying in the M. They fear that soon the BS will go back to their old behavior and the WS will be stuck in a miserable marriage. This is, IMO, reasonable and based on a long history. The only cure is for you to be ever vigilant, keep practicing identifying and eliminating your LBs, and let the passing of time (and your consistent actions, NOT your words!) convince your WW that your changes are sincere and permanent.

How do you know this?

That's because she's still foggy and hasn't come to her senses yet. She is in "cake eating" mode and she wants to be the center of her own universe, and she wants life to be fun and for everyone to kowtow and do her bidding. When you don't, she throws a temper tantrum. Ignore it, it will pass. Try not to laugh at her two-year-old antics.

It's neither, because you are focusing on YOU, remember? You're not focused on her, nor are you reacting to her words (meaningless).

What are her top ENs?
You are doing a lot of Recreational Activity and Family Commitment. I wonder if those are high on her list or if you need to be putting your efforts somewhere more productive. What do you think?

???????????????????

Well I know her top EN is conversation, someone to just talk to her and be there for her, thats what the OM gave her I didn't. I try to be there for her and we do talk but at this moment the only problems she has are with me so I can't exactly comfort her or be there fore her when in her eyes I am the problem. So now she goes to her friends when she needs to talk. We talk more now though just about everyday things then we ever have. I am there for her when she tells me about her feelings, but I try not to engage in relationship talk or D talk.

Last night again I admit I messed up, we talked for 4 hours. at first I was doing the usual "I don't want to discuss divorce" etc.. but she broke me down after an hour of constant digging and I discussed it with her. I let her know firmly my opinion of it, but that doesn't matter.
I realize that in here eyes I am the true source of her unhappiness and until the fog lifts I will remain so, I cannot deposit any love units while she is in withdrawal because she isn't willing to open up to me, right now she is probably forcing herself not to care for me, because as much fun as we have had lately (besides the D and relationship talk) I know she is having fun.
Also domestic help is another big EN of hers and I have been wearing that one out for about a month now, I do the dishes everyday, I do the laundry, fold and put away the laundry, take out the trash when needed, feed dog, clean bathrooms etc.. I LITERALLY do ALL the house work.
She has never done ANY housework even in the passed so our house always stayed a mess, now it stays very clean, and I know she notices that because she has thanked me for it many times.
It makes things much harder for me because NONE of my EN's are being met, thats why it would be so easy for me to give up.

and Gack1 this has not happened yet, she told me she filed, and that Friday we are discussing the proposal with her Lawyer. i am going to get a copy of the proposal and take it to my lawyer.

You have not been served, there is no D-yet.

Stall!!

I would not talk to her lawyer at all!
Thats what your lawyer is for, and you will need one.

If you really want to save this M the thing you need most is NC for WW/OM and time for her head to clear. No need to rush, take things slow.

ok, I know for 100% sure she has had NC with OM. I was in contact with OMS and she said they are working out the marriage for thier kids. I told her my wife still loved him to be careful and she said "my husband said there was no feelings involved for him that it was just physical" They are kind of wierd (his wife probably didn't care that much that he did it) they are into witchcraft and stuff so they really don't have the same morals or feel the same kind of pain that others do.
I came from a christian family and I still have those beliefs so thats why this is so hard.

Agree with Gack1.

She may not have even filed. If she had filed, you'd be served. There'd be no need to discuss a "proposal" with her lawyer.

Tell her you're not interested in D and if she insists on pursuing it, her lawyer can talk to your lawyer. You only talk M. Then change the subject.

Don't make this easy on her. Make her do all the legwork. Also, depending on what state you're in, you may be able to make her pay for your legal fees since she had the affair. Talk to your lawyer about this.

Gack's right -- stall, stall, stall.

Even if you do get served, do not despair. Your lawyer can drag this waaaayy out. There have been marriages here that had the D called off three days before it was finalized and they went on to a good recovery. There have been some that D'd and then recovered.

Let your lawyer handle her D-talk. You keep up with your Plan A.

Also my wife has told me she accepts that it's over and her heart breaks for him everyday. She said if she could take it back she would blah blah and that she hates she almost ruined his family. I do truly believe at this point she won't try to contact him or he won't be contacting her, I could be wrong but I sense and really feel as if it's over between them. I have still taken all the normal precautions for spying and nothing has came up.

Guys I don't have a lwayer, nor can I afford one. I will do free consultation. How can I prove she had an affair? I can't use my evidence because in my state it's not exactly legal. She can't afford my legal fee's, her family is paying for hers. I don't want a WAR, even though it may turn out to be one. . . . I will hope for the best and prepare for the worst. These are my options i can either share her lawyer and get a really good proposal I like and go from there or, get served with papers and be forced to accept whatever proposal she comes up with. Right now while she is in the fog so heavy she is willing to give me about anything I want, once she comes out of the fog I may not get anything. I have $0.00 I CANNOT afford a lawyer.

Her heart should be breaking for her own family that SHE is dismembering. Good grief. Sometimes the WS babble can be too much.

Good Grief - 2X4 upside your head-stay away from her lawyer without counsel of your own. Why are you going to agree with your enemies.

Listen to PSUBiker - you are being manipulated by the enemy. Overnights are the key to custody.





So you are willing to be the participant of your family's demise? I guess I dont understand it. I would find someway to get legal assistance. Half the family assets belong to you - time to use some leverage - get some $$ from the house. If you go to college - seek legal assistance from the school resources. Get a free consultation before the proposal and also after - DO NOT sign up for it under the pressure of her and Atty. This is evil.

Most lawyers will do an initial consultation for free. Lay all the cards on the table - your evidence, the illegality of it, and the fact that you cannot afford a lawyer so would be suing her for legal fees. See what the lawyer says. I'd do at least three consultations with the meanest lawyers you can find.

She can't afford it either? waaaah, poor baby. She shouldn't be filing then.

I know you don't agree but I am not going to sue her for legal fee's this only hurts my kids. She is the one destroying the family not me, and by sueing her that would be taking $$ away from the kids, don't get me wrong I'm not defending her by any means but I also have to keep the kids interest in mind, right now those interest are saving this marriage. I will keep you informed and I will see her proposal on Fri then take that proposal to another lawyer. i will be doing plan A like always,

You need to read No More Mr Nice Guy - the BH fog is thick here

here is the deal - you say you all will live together in same house for several months after the D. So how is that going to work when dates and wants to bring her new beau home.

Waywards are selfish - she wants to spend family assets to have yyou removed from your family but you will not use the assets to protect your family. Sorry not understanding your logic.

I don't think you understand.

You cant "NOT" afford a lawyer.
Man up and either barrow the money, sell something, or start delivering pizza's!

DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING FROM WW ATTORNEY WITHOUT SHOWING IT TO YOUR LAWYER FIRST!!!


DO
YOU
UNDERSTAND???

And until you are served, there is no divorce.
Do not agree to anything, do not see her lawyer.

If you do, you will wish you had not later.
(If the divorce finalizes)

She is using money from her family to pay for it, and we have no family assets worth any amount even close to pay for an attorney. We never had much money, and we don't have many nice things. I know this situation is insane trust me, because it's a given that every couple that divorces hates each other and it's blood guts and WAR in divorce. My wife doesn't hate me and she wants me to succeed as hard as that is for everyone to believe, I actually believe it, not for myself but for the kids. She said she "proposed" and this is funny try not to laugh.... I get the car, we split the debt in half and she makes payments on it until I'm out of school working, She will continue to pay for the bills and i get the MAJORITY of the things in the house. We will share the same bank account until I am out of school working and therefore use what money i need for my gas, food etc... and before when i listed the parenting schedule the days listed as "all day" means overnight also, and the fri that is listed til 10:00 pm is overnight. And truthfully though I don't want to think about it, if she's to the point of dating I will be doing the same, and I am a very confident attractive person so i like to think, I know i have never had trouble getting any women in the passed.

Your wife is the one hurting your kids. You are just using money to help defend your rights and your childrens. She is the one blowing your family money. Besides, if she is broke because of this, then she'll probably just borrow more money from her aunt anyway. They seem to be happy to enable her. Racking up legal fees is actually a good thing in that it will make her be in no hurry to push this divorce through. She'll get to a point where she can't pay her lawyer, and her lawyer isn't going to work for free. If nothing happens, a divorce can be dissmissed. IF you want to stay married, you want this to draw out.

You do not sign or agree to anything without a lawyer. Her lawyer will screw you over. You need a lawyer. It will save you money in the long run by preventing you from getting screwed over in any divorce.

Also she will continue to cover me on her insurance (dental health, medical) I don't know what tomorrow has in store for me guys, none of us know, I am just living it 1 day at a time and I'm not worrying about it or panicking at all. I want to save my M and my family and you all know just as much as her family and my family that I am trying and have tried. There are unique and unusual situations such as mine that permit specific solutions that only someone that has been in this exact situation could understand. ok We know the facts; I am a FT student, my wife doesn't even make enough $$ to afford the bills we have so her family helps us every month.
I have 2 children a 4 year old son and a 2 year old daughter.
I am a handsom, fun loving, all round good person to be with and won't have trouble finding other women if needed
I love my family as much as any other man should love his family, and I am fighting and doing plan A.
I do not have anyone that I can borrow money from for an attorney,
I cannot work because of my kids and school schedule.
I do plan on getting a few free consultations and I am not going to sign ANYTHING from her lawyer until I get another to look at it.
I think that almost sums it up.

oh other facts for thought...
Her aunt owns the house we live in, and we pay her monthly rent, there is no contract or anything, this was just something we agreed upon. My WS's family is financing the divorce. Her family and Her lawyer and herself ARE the ENEMY at this moment. I am still respectful and not rude, but I am firm. So I should NOT go to see her lawyer with her on Fri, even if nothing else but to just listen, because I am fairly intelligent and I know better than to sign ANYTHING he tries to manipulate me into. My wife still has a very good heart (and i know that sickens most of you and you all cringed when I said it) but I do believe it (Thick fog on my part more than likely) but none the less i do believe it. Friday is when she is going and now that I think about it she probably did lie to try to hurt me and said she filed when she didn't because that was the height of her angry outburst. My guess is she is going Fri to file and to start a proposal and wants me there to make sure I am going to agree with it and not fight it.

Jonpen

I think that being you prefer to follow your WW and her aunts advice that you should stop wasting your time here.

Wah Wah Wah. Your wayward wife is upset that she almost ruined his family but she doesn't seem to care that she IS RUINING HER OWN!

Jonpen,
You're going to be in for a rude awakening after the divorce. It will be much easier for you to be evicted from the home when you are not her legal spouse. Also, I don't know of any insurance company that will allow her to keep you on her insurance once divorced. You just don't get to pick your dependents. She's telling you this to get you to play nice because she knows that you want to believe it so badly.

JP- You are being very FOGGY. What I got out of what you wrote today is that you love your W very much. You believe that she still loves you too. All of us BS's on this site try/tried because we love/d our WS's very much, but like I was told
YOUR WIFE IS DEAD TO YOU RIGHT NOW.

I know that is harsh but it is the reality. Everything you have ever known about your beloved wife is gone. She is living on Alien AFFAIR PLANET. Some out of this world alien has replaced your loving wife. She doesn't give a load of BULL about you. She has no good feelings towards you at all. She is lying to you every second.

Before I found this site, my WH told me things like, "I just want you to be you." "Just because I leave and move in with OW doesn't mean that it is over for us." "We can still be friends, it's what's best for the children. Actually we will be more than friends because we have shared so much." "I have hurt you more than anyone else in your life and you must hate me." "Don't take my kids away from me, I love my boys." BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

He told me the "I love you but I'm not in love with you."speech in September and he didn't plan on moving out until February. Yea, you read that right, I would still be living in the middle of this muck everyday if I didn't listen to the advice on here and ask him to leave as I went in to a dark Plan B. WH's plan was that he would come here when I had to work so he could watch the kids, I would use the truck to drive to work, and when I needed groceries we would go out together and get them. I wonder if he ran these plans past OW(HAHAHAHA I really don't give a poop). Our finances are currently as you almost describe. WH works FT and I work PT in retail(in otherwords I work for PEANUTS). I am going to rectify that.

I came here thinking that my WH wasn't even having an affair. I changed to that he was having an emotional affair until I installed the keylogger on advice from the people on here and found out my WH is in love and has had sex with OW for who knows how long. My fog cleared real quick with that realization. Also, when Pepperband pretty much told me that she wouldn't waste her time helping me anymore if I didn't want to follow MB concepts. She was so right and it felt so much better to go with the program than against.

It is really hard to go through this but you are getting really GREAT advice here. Even if you went and paid for MC you probably wouldn't get such great advice.

PLEASE LISTEN TO THE VETS. ESPECIALLY THE ONES WHO ALREADY DID THE SAME THINGS YOU ARE DOING NOW

Again. YOUR WIFE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT YOU RIGHT NOW. AND ALTHOUGH SHE LOVES THE KIDS, SHE ISN'T DOING WHAT'S BEST FOR THEM EITHER SHE ONLY CARES ABOUT HERSELF. HEED THE WARNINGS.

You are in a much stronger position than you realize. Your WW's family knows this too. That's why they are financing her lawyer because they don't want her to get the short end of the divorce stick.

With you being in school and not working, if you settle for 50/50 with her, chances are she will pay you child support. But, if you agree to what she proposed to you earlier, you WILL HAVE TO PAY HER CHILD SUPPORT. You may have to drop out of school to get a job to pay for the child support.

Your WW is going to want to talk divorce and try and manipulate you into settling with a bad deal. If you can get a free consultation, by all means get one. But, don't be affraid of representing yourself in court. There are a ton of free resources at your courthouse where you can learn what the divorce process is, what the rules are, etc. Don't let her intimidate you with her lawyer.

You say that your WW is a good and loving person and a good mother. If you acquiese to her "generous" offer of a divorce and custody settlement without legal representation of your own, this is what your two and four year old children will have to look forward to for the next sixteen or so years.

The house belongs to your WW's aunt with no signed legal agreement. Her family is so totally in favor of her "happiness" even at the destruction of her family that they are even willing to finance it. How long do you think that they will be willing to supplement her ex's living arrangements and schooling?

I hope that you are truly in a state of fogged shock because you would have to be unbelievably naive to believe any of that. Please, Jon, we are trying to help you save yourself and your children.

God's Blessings,

Say

listen guys, I'm sorry! I'm emotional and I don't know what i'm doing.

That is exactly the point. You are emotional and when you make decisions based on those emotions, sometimes the outcomes aren't what is best for you. Ultimately at the end of all of this, it is up to you what to do. Afterall, you are the one who will be living the consequences. But if you really want to try to save your M and do it the MB way, I would suggest that you start listening to what you have been told on here.

I know, and you all know I have listened to EVERYTHING and I have been doing plan A up until today. I can't stand being in the fog and knowing that I am. I let her walk on me, ruin my family, and I let her family do the same thing, NO MORE! She told me she didn't file for divorce because they couldn't find a lawyer so they are trying to find one they can go see soon. I will find a way to get my own lawyer, somehow and I will fight for my kids,
I am not going to show mercy because guys...did she show me any? did she show my family mercy when she commited adultery? did she show me mercy knowing even after that I still wanted to save our M? NO!!! She didn't! My wife is gone, gone. God rest her soul I am going to miss her, and now i have this demon in her place I have to deal with. I will meet with a lawyer ASAP and see how things will play out, but..... for the meantime while i am still in this house, plan A

Jon,

Your WW is still deep in a fog. She has this fantasy of what her life could be like if only she could get rid of you rather amicably while retaining your friendship for babysitting purposes. Read lots of other threads on here. I will not kid you, some waywards never come out of it but many do.

It is normal for you to swing violently back and forth emotionally like this but you need to try to regain some control. We have all been there and are trying to help you to gain some confidence in what you are trying to accomplish. Your situation is not unique. Change a few names and facts and it is identical to the stories that have bben posted on here as long as I have been reading. Try to settle down, pray and know that you have support.

God's Blessings,

Say

I didn't think that she could have possibly filed for a D already. It was a weekend and unless she or a member of her family had a lawyer as a personal friend, none work on the weekend. She is lying to you to get you to be complacent and get what she wants. WS don't think of anyone but themselves. She is an addict. Even if she is not in an active A, she is still in a FOG. Think about what a cocaine addict would do to get a fix. Even if they were told that that next fix would kill them, many addicts would still choose the drug.

This anger and resentment you feel right now is okay, just remember that this is the place to vent it. DO NOT LB her right now. It would undermine your Plan A work to date. That was one way I got myself to keep going because I didn't want all of the work that I had done to that point to be for not. That is what I still tell myself daily. I put up with the abuse and pain(and believe me there was a LOT of pain in my Plan A especially when I came home from work and my WH left to be with POSOW and then came home and climbed into bed with me ) for x number of days and I wasn't going to screw it up or I shouldn't have tried at all and just D in the beginning.

Plan A is not easy, it is HARD AS HECK. Plan B in ways is harder. I have been told that Recovery is even harder still but I am a firm believer that anything worth having is worth working for so I am ready.

Scotland, his WW has admitted that they have not found an attorney. It was all a bluff.

God's Blessings,

Say

She probably *won't* file. You should still get free consultations with the baddest lawyers around, though. Once they've met with you they can't represent her. Muah hah hah hah hah!

Oops. Sorry Scot. Just reread your post. I was watching TV with one eye. (-:

God's Blessings,

Say

SNM- I knew that when I posted. I knew that the moment JP wrote that earlier today. I was just trying to re-enforce for him the fact that she is still lying to him and that all of the things she told him that she was going to give him, etc was most likely a lie too.

this WW is evil....through her kindness....she will have his [censored] on a platter....all those promises she has given you, so you can go away quietly and into the night, can be broken. What are going to do? Go back to court to force her to pay CS , custody time, or keep you in the house - but there is no money.

As sson as you sign - aunt or XW says you need to go.

She is using threats to agree to D by giving promises that all will not change. Need to remember - at this time - she and her family want you to be replaced.

Jon,

I just read your arrangement and am screaming through my monitor at you.

Guess what. I was YOU!

I too was told all kinds of nice nice stuff about how friendly and amicable the D would be and that I'd get to see the kids all the time.

IT'S A LIE!

You believe it because you are desperate to believe it and want to think there is a shred of hope.

DO NOT TALK DIVORCE WITH HER!

And lawyer up.

What you described is something that no judge or lawyer would ever approve.

Not only that, but overnights with the kids determine child support. So she is setting you up fat and nice by giving you the idea you'll take care of the kids all the time.

NOPE. You are basically a babysitter and will have to pay CS out the nose. Overnights determine CS and overnights are what the state you're in says they are, not what your WW says they are.

I'M A 2X4 THAT NEEDS TO HIT YOU OVER THE HEAD OVER AND OVER TILL YOU GET IT! YOU'RE BEING MANIPULATED AND IT IS EASY BECAUSE YOU LOVE HER AND HAVE A SHRED OF HOPE.



There isn't any. Once the papers are signed she will toss you aside like yesterdays garbage. She's being nice to you only for as long as necessary to get you to go along with her little plan.

If she's the primary bread winner, then she can be the one liable for the legal fees. She's screwing your kids already by committing adultery and destroying your family.

You have a case to make for primary custody.

You also need to wake up and see that life will not be able to continue as normal.

The smartest thing for you to do is to find a way to pay for a lawyer. The dumbest thing you can do is not get one. You will be one of the sad stories we read about of a man stripped of everything and who knows what he does to himself in the process.

I've been there.

What happened to me? I fell for all the garbage my WW fed me. I went along with it "to be amicable" and "for the kids".

Once my fog lifted I realized I was broke, without my stuff, without a job, without my kids, and still dependent on paying her CS out the nose.

It took massive legal fees, a massive and painful legal battle, and tons of money to finally secure my rights as a father.

Check my name. I'm on here because men like you compell me to post. I was in your shoes. I know exactly how you feel. I thought exactly as you're thinking and paid for it dearly.

So defog riki tik.

What would I do in hindsight? I would have gathered all my evidence, gone for full custody, and crucified her in court for adultery. I would have been able to do it too if I had kept my head about me and listened to the folks on MB who were trying to get through my massive fog that I was being played like a fiddle.

You're that man right now.

What would I have done if I had wanted to save my marriage? I honestly think my ex wouldn't have defogged with the Plan A approach or the Plan B. It would have taken Plan FU, get the heck out of my house, take your crap and I'll see you in court. The wakeup would have come once she saw me grow a pair, how much she had to lose, and maybe then woken up. Even then, she may not have. Plan A and B wouldn't have worked on my ex short of me getting primary custody of the kids, which I was likely to get had I fought things smartly from the start.

Truthfully, I'm very happy to have her out of my life. I'm much happier now than I would have been with her.

You want to save your marriage? Then understand that all this divorce talk on her part is just talk until you get served. Until then, you need to Plan A, Plan B, and if necessary, Plan FU and D.

Man up. Wake up. This is a warning from a man who has walked 20 miles in your shoes already and is trying to keep you from making the same mistake.

You know what my lawyer told me when I told her what happened to me? That I'm not uncommon and it is a common ploy played by women on heartbroken men to have things go their way.

Get it through your head that she is the devil incarnate right now. How does the devil get you to go down the wrong path? Through deceit and temptation. He gets his way, you get screwed.

That's what she's doing to you right now with all this hope and amicability talk.

Not only that, but once you're divorced and are living together, she will manipulate you until she makes her full escape. She'll drag you along because you buy the crap she's feeding you. I was there too.

Jon,

My exWW was a stay at home mom. I had a custody hearing back in August, I'm still waiting word, but worst case for me will be 50/50 and I may even get the kids. You know why? I didn't fall for my exWW's BS for an "amicable" divorce. I was like you, feeling sorry for myself, blaming myself for everything. I was ready to sign an agreement where I would be every other weekend and Wednesday night dad because I was believing those who said dads don't get the kids. Then, I walked in on exWW with OM.

If I had given in, my kids would have been raised by a home wrecking scumbag. Fight for your kids. Don't settle for any custody arrangement that is less than 50% of overnights unless it is ordered by a judge.

You are going to need to gird up for a long battle and will need to grow gonads of steel. First off, go buy a downloadable voice recorder. False domestic violence charges are the favorite tactic of Wayward Wives who want a quick and easy solution to the divorce. Have the tape recorder in your pocket going at all times when you are with the WW. She hasn't indicated anything yet but with her family not too happy with you moving back in, it's a matter of time before she starts thinking about the domestic violence card.

Jon

Please LISTEN to PSUBIKER.

I followed his situation in amazement. PSUBIKER has the scars from a very nasty situation. His is trying to prepare you. Are you LISTENING to what he is telling you??


It may be hard to comprehend right now but he can potentially save you from a world of hurt if you are willing to listen. You need to look after yourself and prepare for the situation facing you. You might want to be the nice guy but you are not the "moving" party here. She is.

Is she responding favorably to your being a nice guy? How is that working for you?

Good luck

BCBoy

I'm an attorney.

You MAY consider going on Friday to meet with the attorney...for one tricky reason.

Go in a make it appear you intend to play nice and get the attorney to agree to be your joint attorney (representing BOTH of you in an amicable divorce). Take a $50 or $100 bill with you. Lead the attorney down the path of amicableness. Don't sign ANYTHING but don't argue anything either. If he senses a problem at all he won't agree to representing you both because he knows that he could lose BOTH clients if that happens. Near the end of the meeting ask what you need to pay to see this through. Give him the $100 bill as a down payment and tell him you'll bring him a check for the rest on Monday, next week. You might have to play really dumb/niave. Then when you are leaving, nonchalantly say, "oh yeah, can I get a receipt". [this all may be complicated if your in-laws are paying the bills]

On Monday morning fax over a short letter indicating that you are firing him and have since retained your own lawyer. You MAY even be able to request a copy of the entire file and NOTHING should be privileged. He CAN NOT have communication with your wife or in-laws that you are not privy too (though getting him to divulge such is easier said than done)

That lawyer then CAN NOT represent your wife in the divorce. He can't be her attorney against you...his former client (and you've got the receipt to prove it). She'll have to get another attorney which then gives you time to perhaps engage your attorney quickly and file for divorce first. You could even get a head start on that this week by meeting with an attorney even though your wife thinks you'll be coming Friday to meet hers and play nice. Tell your attorney your plan and if he's aggressive enough he'll say go for it because it gives him a few days to get his paperwork in order and file first. He/she may also tell you what I'm saying won't work and is a complete waste of time. It may not be the most "professional" or ethical thing for your attorney to advise you DIRECTLY to do...so don't ASK him if you should do it...instead offer the fact pattern as a hypothetical and see if he/she thinks such "hypothetical" would work....then decide for yourself whether you want to do it or not.

Remember...filing first has it's advantages....so it would behoove you to win the race to the court house.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I've read about some spouses in small towns running around getting consultations with all the local divorce attorneys...paying them a small fee for an initial consult and then eventually hiring the best one. In such event...their spouses' have ended up having to hire an out-of-town divorce attorney...which in small towns, don't typically fair so well with the local good ole boys legal network.

WOW
Mr. Wondering. May I say congratulations. This is brilliant. You are an excellent man on strategy.

Jon I think you should be feeling a lot better as you have got the heavy hitters wading in trying to help you.

Good Luck
BCBoy

I know, I do feel better. You all are beyond right on everything it's just you know how I feel, you've been in my shoes. I do love my wife with all my heart and thats why she manipulates me. I'm going to man up and take care of me and my family. She can hate me if she wants, I've already lost her it seems anyways, even though again while I'm here I will do plan A.
I seen a chat log between her and her best friend last night, and it was talking about how she wants to talk to the OM so bad but she knows it won't work between them.
Her best friend was telling her how much happier she would be in the long run if she gets the divorce (her best friend is D) I will go down there with her and "pretend" for the amicable divorce then behind the scenes I will be plotting my attack. I can't wait to find out what she is going to propose so I can let you all in on it. don't worry I AM NOT signing ANYTHING!

ok also I now have a Digital pocket voice recorder. I will try to keep it on when I am around her.

So right now am I still supposed to be trying to save the marriage? it's hard for me to think on these lines when I want to DESTROY her for this. I know behind the scenes I will be preparing for the worse, but in the house with my kids I will still be doing plan A right?

Jon,

You're not trying to destroy your wife. You are destroying the A that your WW is having while protecting your family of her decisions.

--ElCamino72

she again has been sitting in her room crying all day long as usual. She was on the phone telling someone "I am stressed and why shouldn't I be" it was not him though because of the other parts of the conversation. She still thinks there is a possibility they could be together from the conversation I saw between her and her best friend last night.

Jon,

As you probably know, it is totally expected that she'll miss OM after NC. The worst part of withdrawal could last weeks. So brace yourself to handle this kind of behavior for a while. Beware that she'll most likely try to break NC so be vigilant.

Be strong. You don't need to protect her from the consequences of her actions. But try to stick with Plan A. Do not commit LBs. Avoid relationship conversations at all cost. If you find yourself talking about relationship stuff for more than 5mins then change subjects. This is not the time to try to discuss marital issues with your WW.

I think turtle had a great suggestion of focusing on your side of the equation. It's good that you are making a great effort to continue in plan A. However, it seems like you've been doing a lot of house chores. That's good but you may want to look into meeting other ENs as well (well, the OM was not doing the dishes and she fell for him).

Especially look into affection. It's difficult at this point but if you go out send her a text saying that you're thinking about her and will be there for her. Those details may get her to slowly open up. Plan a picnic or some outing with the kids and invite her.

Can you come up with a list of specific ideas on how to get WW to go out with you and the kids or a gesture to express subtle affection?

Keep at it

--ElCamino72

I have been trying to meet her biggest EN of conversation but now that you mention it it wasn't conversation it was the affection the other man gave.
I have stayed away from affection because of the difficulty during this situation. Should I tell her i am worried about her or that I am thinking about her? She won't let me touch her at all so thats out big time, if i did try to hug her or anything it would be so ackward at this point that it's not possible. I can try to think of some fun things we could all go out and do but I'm sure at this point she would refuse at all cost.
see things seem to get better but then she spends the day with her Aunt or she talks to her friend and they both are trying to get her to go through with the divorce so even if she did deep down change her mind she would feel almost obligated to do it at this point.

I have never been in this position, you all have, what are some ideas you could think of to show affection to a woman that doesn't want anything to do with you?

Listen to me.

Your WW is doing the same things mine did. This is completely normal for a WW in her situation.

If you want a divorce, go file for one at the courthouse today, and go hire an attorney (Or vice versa if you choose)

If you do NOT want a divorce DO NOTHING!!
(but save for a lawyer)

You have NOT been served, there is NO divorce.
Do not go see her lawyer
Do not talk about Divorce
Do not agree to anything

My wife did eventually file, at the courthouse, for $50.00. Thats all it takes if you really want a divorce.

As soon as I was served I hired the best divorce lawyer in my county and told her I did not want a divorce, stall it!!

She did, by almost a year.

(WW poped a gasket when she read the counter suite )

WW slooowley defogged over time, and eventually (All though still a little fogy) went down to my lawyers office and asked to drop the suite.

It takes time to defog.

But if you WANT A divorce, just go file for one today.

I do not want the D at all. I want to save my marriage. i will save for a lawyer and go speak to one (free consultation) I am getting so much mixed advice i don't know what to do. read over this page and see what everyone is telling me. Gack you seem to have been in a situation similar to mine and your wife returned to you, so I take your advice.

You want to know why that is?

It's because she feels like she is betraying/cheating on OM with you if she allows this. It will pass, hopefully faster for her than it took my WW.

Show affection in non physical ways for now. Let her approach you with the physical

Jon,

Try to do your best when when she's in a good mood. Do not force anything. When she's sulking or crying I'd say to let her be. I don't think it is a good idea to say that you worry about her. I think it's better to be positive.

Affection can be expressed in words when you let her know that you're thinking of her. You may incidentally remind her of good time you've had. e.g. "I just passed by <insert place>. Brings me good memories. We had a blast that day. Thinking of you." Make it casual, positive and don't pose it as a question.

You've mentioned that she was laughing the other day and acting normal. Those moments may be the best opportunity. Try to be subtle. e.g. when both of you're laughing touch her briefly like it was accidentally.

Play with your kids around her. You can be carrying one of your kids and hand him over to her in a playful manner (you may get to "accidentally" hug her).

Get creative. Just look for opportunities and test the waters a little bit when the right time comes. Don't be like a robot or try too hard.

I don't know if this would work in your case. When my WW was going through withdrawal (first day I came back home after D-Day). I said "Honey come here for a second". When she came closer I hugged her. She broke down and cried on my shoulder for a minute. The only thing I said was "We're gonna be OK". However, that was a risky move so be careful that the ambush approach may backfire.

--ElCamino72

Jon,

You can follow a mixture of Mr W's advice and Gack's advice. Don't file if you don't wish to, but I do recommend you follow Mr. W's advice for the lawyer and "amicable" D.

You see, I was bamboozled into going to an "amicable" session. I was unprepared. I had received no advice. I gave my ex the benefit of the doubt and thought that the vague language written in our divorce agreement would protect my rights as a father.

It didn't.

If you do go, sign nothing. Take the document with you and say you will read it over and consider it.

Do what Mr. W says since it would cause a massive dealay for your WW. Delay and time are your friends if your goal is to save your marriage.

There is no rush to divorce and contesting it gives you that time.

Then you don't need to do anything.

You can consult with an attorney, but I would ask around and find out who others recommend. And do NOT let them talk you into divorce if you are not ready for one. If they try to, just thank them for there time and leave.

You have not been served, there is no divorce....


Yet!


She may do like my WW did and actually go file. If she does, don't fret, hire a lawyer and stall. Stall until either WW drops it, YOU are ready for divorce, or it can't be stalled any longer and it is inevitable.

You can also answer her suite with your own, I did.
It ticked WW way off that her dirty laundry would be aired in a courtroom for all to hear. But it also made divorce have a few cons that she did not count on.

My state is a no fault state, but you can still file, or contest on the grounds of adultery. Even though it supposedly cant be considered in the ruling, it will be known, the judge will hear/see it, and it will taint the decision.

I did not, as soon as I was served I scheduled an appointment with my lawyer. I had already chosen one after considerable research.

Once it gets to legal documents, it's business.
I contested EVERYTHING!!
And I went for EVERYTHING!!

Funny, it never maid it to court

Jonpen,

Lightly touch her on the arm or hand when handing her something. Touch the top of her head lightly when you pass by her if she is sitting. Sit face to face when opportunity for conversation comes up and make eye contact. Laugh and enjoy your kids in front of her. Invite her to join you and the kids on outings but accept her no if she turns you down. ENJOY life and your kids.

I have an appt with an attorney today at 5:00, what are some of the main things i should ask him? I will make sure I let him know I DO NOT want the D.

also Faithful you seem to have a good deal of experience on all of this, can you briefly read over a bit of my posts and see what advice you can give? I'm sure you have seen and heard it all

Tell the attorney what the proposed visitation schedule is and the proposed divorce agreement.

Tell him you're interested in securing your rights as a father and want no less than 50/50 custody of your kids, with primary custody if possible.

Ask about adultery in your state and/or marital misconduct as a factor in a D.

Check about the laws of recording your wife in your state. Some states require that everyone know they are being recorded.

when my wife says "why are you forcing me to stay married to you!?" when she finds out i'm stalling, what do i say?

Don't say squat, just walk away. Or if anything, just reverse babble. "I can't possibly force you to stay married to me. If you want to leave you are free to leave." Don't try and reason with her. This will only lead to love busters and cause more problems. She knows where you stand. Only talk to her about fun, lighthearted conversation right now. Avoid relationship talks at all cost.

You have gotten some really good advice, especially on the legal matters. Best advice I can give you is to remember to CALM DOWN. This is a marathon not a sprint to the finish line. You are doing really great by taking care of the household chores, taking care of the kids and not LBing. Just be patient and let your WW go through withdrawl, keep putting off the D talk and be sure to protect yourself by not signing anything. I agree with the others that if she does file you will need to find a way to get your own attorney.

I understand how you feel. even though my husbandnever went on a trip without me, he has gone and stayed over at friends houses and claims its because he was drunk. You should really look down deep inside and see what is best for you. I also wnat to know how do i post my story on my profile for everyone to read.

Welcome, ZM. Go to the top of the Infidelity page, click on New Topic and choose your topic name then have at it.

God's Blessings,

Say

Thank you.

ok guys, I went and i met with an attorny for the free consultation today. He said if she agrees to give all the things she said she would to take it. she is giving me around 70% of the belongings in the house, 50/50 child custody, paying spousal support until i get out of school, she is going to pay all the bills until i'm out of school and then we split them 50/50, our new car will be put in my name, plus there was a few behind the scenes tricks my lawyer mentioned that would also HIGHLY be in my favor later on. now in my county if she files first and it goes to court she WILL WIN, the court systems here are HIGHLY in favor of mothers.
She will put everything I mentioned in writing and agree to have it done by MY lawyer. I know you all said to avoid the D talk but this was unavoidable.
It was either I do it this way or she files and either gets what she wants or I spend an INSANE amount of $$ fighting for my rights, and since her family and friends are not only supporting her financially to go through with the D but they are encouraging her to do it.
Now....I haven't filed yet and I have not spoke to her about any of this yet, I do plan to discuss this with her tonight even though she has already agreed to it before.
I told my lawyer to stall and draw it out as long as possible because my WS is more heavily in the fog now then she ever has been, and thats also to my advantage. Right now she is willing to accept this proposal because she wants out no matter the cost, but a month from now she may wake up and realize she is getting screwed and not go through with it.
I do still plan to keep up with plan A while I am here and D in my state is a minimum of 90 days usually much longer especially if i want to have them stall. So what are your opinions on this situation?

i think you should use those 3 months then if she cant get her head straight,you should divorce as fast as possible.

Jon, you have 28 pages from some of the best on the forum to see what we think. Now I guess you have to follow your heart and do what you feel is best for your babies.

God's Blessings,

Say

Very smart WW. Buying her way out of the marriage. Your folding like a house of cards.

Forever? What a cool deal. Wish my ex would pay half of my bills.

Do some free consultations with the best lawyers in the county. Don't sign anything. Don't take any action. Just consult with them. Then they can't represent your WW.

I haven't discussed any of it with her yet, and I haven't even mentioned I got a lawyer. Last night by the time I got home it was too late. So you all suggest that I let her go file and I don't even discuss the D, and then when she does file I go to war or accept it?
I am going to get slaughtered, like I said in my county when it goes to court she has ALREADY won, and I can't really afford a lawyer let along afford a fight. ok....let me ask you this, if I find out in advance when she is going to go file should I go file first because in my state TN there are ALOT of advantages to filing first.

Jon,

My questions is: why bother with the hassle of plan A if you're going to D? You may be better off starting your new D life as soon as possible.

--ElCamino72

because Elcamino every 5 seconds I change my mind. Part of me wants the D the other part doesn't.

How long does it take to get a divorce in your jurisdiction? There is usually a waiting period. If I were you, I would get the temporary orders for the 50/50,spousal support, and belongings division signed by the judge ASAP. What this will enable you to WORK THE PLANS without worry about how plan B could effect your custody, spousal support, and property division if plan D gets rolling.

You see, plan B can put men in a BAD spot if things go to plan D because moving out and cutting off the mother can easily be twisted to be abandonment by a good lawyer. However, if you already have a 50/50 custody plan in place and signed off by a judge, it will be MUCH harder to change it no matter how much your WW protests it. Right now, she is extremely foggy and trying to buy you out of the marriage. Once she starts to wise up, you may never see that offer again.

In the meantime, plan A her, then when you think the time is right, go straight to plan B.

Was this a highly recommended divorce lawyer?

Mine was!

I asked a minimum of 10 different people who I should use, because I wanted the best. Every single one of them gave me the same name.

Here is the thing, if you WANT a divorce, you should proceed as quickly and efficiently as you can. Get her now wile she is fogged up and get as much out of her as you can.

If you do not WANT a divorce, do not file for one, because if you do, you know what you'll get..........A DIVORCE!

Waywards are weird, and they need to be shown a path back to the M. Most look at the BS filing for a D as a justification, even when they say they want one!

"Jon never really loved me or he would not have filed for D"
"If it was meant to be Jon never would have been able to go through with it"

So on, and so forth.

Odds are she will not WANT a divorce in 90 days if NC is kept up. But she will still be fogged up enough that if YOU initiated it, she would follow it through as a part of justification for her previous actions.

Do or Do Not, there is no try!


Side note
1. You have an income problem that needs to addressed pronto. Or at least you need a small stash of money for possible legal fees. What are you going to school for, and could you get a part time internship or something in that field?

2. Your going to say I am wrong, that you don't need to do this, and blah, blah, blah.... But if this does go to D, you need to get your kids DNA tested.

Gack like I said before i usually take your advice and what you are saying sounds good. Now I know it's up to me to decide whether I WANT a D or not and truly I am unsure at this point. The proposal I can get out of her now sounds really really good, But staying married to her sounds good too.
This lawyer is highly recommended. He is trying to get me to file first for the advantage etc... I don't know what to do, I'm going to have to think it over and weigh out my odds I guess.

also, without me filing how can i get the orders for the belongings and 50/50 custody etc...?

This is all up to you.
But you don't have to do anything right now.
She may choose for you and force your hand, but I would not file until I was ready for a divorce.

But hey, thats just me.
You must do what is right for You!

If there is no divorce, why do you need these orders?

If there is a divorce you seek these things the moment you are served.

I've seen those same WWs get a bit of a wakeup call when the papers are in hand, the D has been filed, and they see it will neither be pretty, amicable, or easy.

The fantasy is lifted of the amicable D where you and her will be best buds who have the Hollywood style D where you guys get along splendidly and life is a Romantic Comedy and the kids live in total happiness in split homes and bunnies frolic about when you're around each other and rainbows fill the sky.

The man I have in mind was able to save his marriage, but he protected himself and his rights as a father just in case.

I think you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by filing first. You can always withdraw the filing and force the timeline to start all over again if she wants to pursue the divorce. But you hold the cards if you file first.

Filing first is a wakeup and one I would take. You force her to see the reality of D and what she stands to lose. I would make sure to mention adultery and marital misconduct in the filing.

You can make the charge. It may not hold up, but you can make it.

Others here think that this isn't marriage building advice, but I think the rules are different as a man dealing with female bias.

You can still do Plan A, Plan B, and pursue saving your marriage while ordering the lawyer to take as long as possible and drag his feet throught he process.

Also, she is liable for the legal fees since she's the income earner. Otherwise, how would any stay at home parent ever divorce?

Finally, if you do take this route, which is the smart and prudent one, I recommend you leave any talk of D to your lawyer. When she goes ballistic about you filing, you simply say,

"I want to save my marriage. I am happy to withdraw this if you re-commit to this marriage, have NC, and work with me to fix the problems. Otherwise, I have to protect myself and the children from your adultery."

If she continues about your demands in the D, you simply state, "I talk marriage. My lawyer deals with the D issues."

It's smart and prudent and you will get caught with your pants down if she does it first. You also call her bluff and wake her up.

This is a serious gamble if looking for saving the M, At this point.

The reason why, because you will be giving her exactly what she wants, Right now. She won't see it as a wake up call, she will see it as a release and a justification.


The good news is you will be able to take her to the cleaners, at least initially. The bad news is by the time she defogs enough that recovery might have been a possibility, the divorce process that was initiated BY YOU may have you so turned against each other that R will never be possible.


If you do take the D-In hopes of-R path, at least tell her before she is served (But not before you actually file) and explain that you only did it in order to protect yourself just in case, and that you do NOT actually want a divorce, but her insistence on it has forced your hand. Then tell her you want to call it off, but she has to commit to recovery first.

But, I don't think your W will bring herself to file. And if she does, I still don't think it will make it to court if you do Plan-A and she defogs.

If you file, I think you will be divorced within a year.
But I may be wrong.

Like I said, when it comes to D, I am a simple man.
Do or Do Not, there is no try!

I would make it fast and hit her hard, or I would not file.

Woops, double post.
My bad

Jon,

You have been at this a VERY short time. Why the fast jump to the D train? My previous post to you was this is a marathon not a sprint. Do a STELLAR plan A for about 6 weeks while she goes through withdrawl. At that point if she is still foggy you can go to plan B. Plan D should be the last thing you consider if you still want to save the M.

Well I KNOW she is going to file for D, I am 100% sure of it because her aunt is doing it for her.
You can say "she is bluffing" or "she won't go through with it" I'm telling you it is already done, she hasn't even had a free consultation yet but she is going next week for one.
Right now she knows NOTHING about D and once her lawyer tells her what all she can do to me then I'm screwed.
I can tell her I didn't want the D and still don't, but if she wants it then we can use MY lawyer. I want to save my M but you have to remember in my county the courts here favor women MAJORLY. I don't want to file but she literally is forcing me to do it in order to cover myself.

Right now with my lawyer i can get, 50/50 child custody, spousal support until I finish school, my bills paid until I finish school, half her 401k, she still has to pay my insurance until I finish school, around 70% of the belongings in the house and many other things in my favor.
This is with MY lawyer doing the deal, her lawyer will say NO thats INSANE! Her lawyer will most likely force me to drop out of school and find a job to cover my bills, pay her child support while i am working, I probably won't get 50/50 child custody and they will basically rip me apart and....SHE WILL WIN. I WANT to save my M, I really do, but I also want to save myself and my future with my kids. I am at a brick wall and don't know what to do right now.

A person can not file for divorce for someone else. They can pay for it and be there when it is done, but you cant do it FOR someone else.

If you are 100% sure she will file for divorce, and resonably sure she will go all the way through with it, then go file.

Either way she probably will Lawyer up before it is over, so this dream you have of an easy divorce is probably false.

Have you actually spoken to her aunt about any of this?
Or is this all coming from WW?

I have spoken to her aunt, and her aunt is the most persistant person you will ever meet. She will do ANYTHING for her lovely sweet little innocent Niece. Her aunt isn't filing FOR her but she is doing ALL the work in setting it up. I KNOW she will file for D but going all the way through with it is where i am unsure.
You have to remember this is a 16 year gamble with my kids, and everything I told you she will give me I am certain I can get it in writing right now while she is in the fog and have my lawyer draw it up.
The other thing is this is what SHE WANTS and she will not be mad at me for it she will be thankful I am cooperating and really appreciate it. See heres the thing right now her aunt and mamaw are paying for her D 100% I can tell her if she wants to use my lawyer that I can help with half the cost, her family would LOVE this. again I DO NOT want this D, and she knows it and I will continue to tell her this.

And what did her aunt say?

For now.
Later, it will be all your fault, and her lawyer, which she will hire, will still fight you on the settlement. The fighting for custody and child support will probably happen no matter who files first.

I don't know what else to tell you Jon.

I know Gack, I am in an odd and unfortunate predicament. Her aunt is working to get the D done. Her aunt wants this for my WW because she thinks it's what is going to make her happy.
If it does come down to a fight for CS and custody she WILL WIN. It's almost like I'm stuck between fighting for my M and fighting for myself and my kids. In which if I win the battle for my M this will also save myself and my kids.
If I fight for my myself and my kids legally then I need to accept the offer she is giving me now.

I do NOt every want another man in my children's life nor do I ever want another woman for that matter. this is one major reason I am fighting to save our M, I do believe with my whole heart that we could have a very happy M later on together, I know it would take ALOT of work on both of our parts but i do now know her top EN's and how to meet them i also know how to avoid LB's. I have been doing plan A for around a month now even though I haven't been on the forum that long.
Her affair was a very short one, she was probably only "In love" for about 2 weeks and she is majorly going through withdrawls right now.
The fact is she is 100% going to file. Now I don't really know for sure how long it would take for everything to be finalized and I don't know that she would even reconsider. I am stuck.
I do love my WW but I love my kids more, and I will do WHATEVER it takes to make sure i get to see my kids at least 50% of the time even if this means I have to file first, though this is not what I want. For now only time will tell what will happen, but I will not allow myself to be fed to the wolves by her and her lawyer. Also I cannot do plan B until the divorce goes through because in my state thats abandonement and I would get in ALOT of trouble for that. I live in Tennessee if anyone wants to research some of my rights and laws. thank you guys, and as always I am more than appreciative of all your advice.

There are 2 courts in my county of TN (Circuit and Chancery). There is one judge in Chancery court, he always favors the woman, even in a 50/50 custody (you can end up being a weekend dad). In the Circuit court the judges consider the 50/50 custody as being what it should be - 50/50. If the worman files first, her lawyer will have her file in Chancery court. If the man files first, his lawyer will file in Circuit. This is where the main issue of who files first comes in. There are only 4 judges in this county and 1 is Chancery the other 3 are Circuit. Most lawyers know, after many years of practice how the judges will rule. If my wife files first, and files in Chancery court, I don't have a "chance".

File first. You have nothing to lose. It gives you the best chance.

As far as having other men in your kids lives go, that's a simple reality of divorce.

But file first unless you want to find yourself a weekend dad.

My WW has been being fairly rude today and seems to be in a really bad mood. I am still being nice and doing plan A, but I am really sick today.
I can barely move because I have been so sick to my stomach all night last night and still this morning.
Normally my WW has always been real nice to me like nothing was going on but today she was acting like she just flat out hated me.

I disagree, and here is why.

Estimated percent chance of divorce.

No one files 0%

She files 25%

You file 75%

Granted, these numbers are from the Gack1 Institute for numbers pulled out of thin air. But they are about how I see it.

This is absolutely true. There are only two ways to prevent this.

1. Avoid Divorce.

2. Strip her of every bit of here parental rights.
(#2 is rare)

I can not argue that you will not have a greater chance for custody if you file first.

I can only argue that I believe you would have a better chance of raising your children with your wife if you don't file.

This is a gamble. It is one I would take, that does not mean you should.

If the risk is not worth the reward to you, then I back filing first 100%

Blame!
Normal part of withdrawal.
You took her crack pipe away.

Today has been a hard discouraging one. I am very sick (sick to my stomach, high fever etc...) I am so used to her being there for me and taking care of me when I am sick, today she said "I hope you feel better" not in a caring way, then wanted me to watch the kids while she went out for groceries with her mom. (I know it was with her mom because she came and picked her up) I am on the biggest, fastest, and worst emotional rollercoaster ever put on God's green earth.
1 second I keep thinking you know the divorce would be best..because even 5 years from now I will know that my wife would have left me for another man if he was available. My wife didn't even put me 2nd best because she still hasn't chose to come back yet. I know it is VERY slow during the withdrawl and defog process. Right now the way she has treated me even though I didn't LB.. . I don't think I did, it's supposed to snow about 12 inches here tomorrow and I said "you know if it snows that much you will be stuck in the house with me all day", and she kinda fake laughed.
I also patted her on the back because my daughter is sick too and she threw up because of how sick to my stomach I am I couldn't clean it so i went and got here. When she got done cleaning it up and giving them a bath I lightly rubbed her back and said "I really appreciate you helping me so much" she said "I was helping the kids not you" you know how discouraging that is? I just needed to vent because at this point i would throw in the towel and just get it over with, but tomorrow i probably wouldn't. If it snows we are all going to go out sleigh riding as a family, even though my evil in-laws will be there too.

You know what, don't worry about her saying she was just helping the kids. That is fine, my WH said that to me one day when he called home because the kids were home sick and he said, "I was ONLY calling to check on the kids." I simply said, "Okay." and hung up.

Hey Jon, is WW staying at home again?

Don't get discouraged by her reactions to the things you are doing. Just stick to your plan. Think about how awful you felt before this website and before you started following MB concepts. Doesn't it feel better now.

I did a Plan A. I am in Plan B. I actually believe that had I not found MB, that one day I had a chance that my WH would come home. Difference is that using MB concepts, if my WH does come home and choose me I have a real SHOT at a REAL recovery that could last a LIFETIME. I have seen people get back together after an A but they didn't do it right and they just D anyways. I am doing it the MB way to get the best chance. Who would fault anyone for taking the best odds? Not any of us.

Ya we are staying in the same house again, she does refuse to sleep in the same bed though, and most days have went ok. We NEVER fight or argue anymore she has just closed herself off to me 100%.
I told her today that I liked the jeans she was wearing she said "you always hated these and told me they were baggy" I said "I just like the way they fit around your legs now because I can tell you have lost alot of weight" she said "that doesn't even make sense because I know you really don't like these" I said "well maybe it's just because I am noticing you more now" she is starting to look physically more attractive, she has lost 20 lbs and is still losing. I see a dark plan B in the near future.

She is staying the same house again That will make doing a solid Plan A a lot easier.

I am sorry that you are sick and dealing with a Plan A. That must be rough.

As far as what happened with the pants, personally I would have dropped the compliment and when she said, "I know you don't mean it because you used to say you hate these pants." I would have responded with something like, "well, I don't know what I was thinking because you are HOT in those." and maybe even giving her a wink and a pinch if I were so bold.

Ya she is staying in the same house just not the same bed I am doing an awesome plan A but again I KNOW it will come down to a plan B. An odd thing happened yesterday though when she went grocery shopping she bought all MY favorite groceries, she even bought me a thing of beef jerky which she doesn't even eat.
She ignores me and is rude to me while she is here most the time lately, before she was at least nice and would joke around with me, now she is rude and hateful. The thing is she doesn't hate me at all, she even says she still loves me, but she doesn't want to be married to me and she doesn't think we could EVER be happy together. Plan A continues. It is supposed to snow ALOT so that means we will be stuck in this house together for awhile

Hey Jon, I was just wondering, what are you going to school for?
In other words what are you taking, what degree are you going for?
I'm just curious, I have asked once or twice, but you never replied.

Deep snow is one of the reasons the good Lord invented 4x4's, lockers, and Mud Tires

Warning
Use of locking differentials and Mud tires on lightly snow/ice covered roads can cause unwanted driving characteristics. For roads covered in less then 12" open differentials or mild limited slip differentials with a quality All-Terrain are recommended. We recommend having two vehicles, one for light snow outfitted accordingly, one for deep snow also outfitted accordingly.

"when she went grocery shopping she bought all MY favorite groceries, she even bought me a thing of beef jerky which she doesn't even eat"

Plan A is working. Her actions mean more than her words. She's home, she's shopping.

I agree

You did thank her, yes?

I am going into Biomedical Technology, I will be out in another year and half. I did thank her. Today something funny just happened, she works from home and she kicked out the plug in on the modem,
she didn't know what happened to the internet so I was on the phone with tech support forever and then I finally noticed what happened, We had a real good laugh over that and she felt like an idiot.

I heard from her aunt today she is still 100% going to file. At what point do I go to plan B? I am the one going to be forced to move.
Also anyone have any links to the sample plan B letters just out of curiosity?

Also, she never left home she went and stayed at her aunt's 1 night then came here. so she has BEEN home the whole time. I am just going to keep on giving my best plan A and sit back and watch what she plans to do then react. If she files and I agree with everything should I accept it or should I find a reason to contest it? If I can agree it will save me about $2500.00 which I don't even have in the first place.

File first, Jon.

Don't move out unless you're forced out. It is considered abandonment if you leave and she'll get the kids and you can then pay to fund her lifestyle and time with OM.

You are not forced out of the house until cop or judge says so.

I know, thats what I'm saying I am not going anywhere until I am forced out. I would like to look at some sample plan B letters just for something to pass the time.

poppycock
Sounds like the Aunt is the one gunning for divorce!
Let me guess, she has at least one D under her belt.

When you are forced to move, or WW leaves,or actually files.

Not on me, have you tried to use the search function?

I'll look for them for you if I get time.

Try this Jon
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2312940&page=1

Thanks buddy. I noticed today she is still searching for Daily horoscopes and looking through online tarot cards etc... This has always been something majorly against our religion and yet she is still doing it because it was something the OM was big into....... Who knows. How am I supposed to treat her exactly? I mean I am being polite but do I treat her like I'm a polite roommate or like she is the queen of the earth? I used to write her poems alot, when we were dating. I haven't told her I love her since this has been going on other than when we sit down and talk and I tell her I still love her with all my heart. and yes Gack her aunt is pushing it BIG TIME!

I read those plan B letters, very touching. I'm sure mine will be similar.

can you please look at my previous post as to how im supposed to treat her while im here.

Jon,

Treat her like a polite roomate. Treat her like you're carrying on with your life and that she's not the center of it. She'll notice the withdrawl and seek your affection.

Here's the 180, which is a guide. They're not hard and fast rules, but an overall guide.

"180 is a list of behaviors from Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, that will help your spouse to see you moving forward as a healthy person. I would highly suggest that any new BS begin these behaviors as soon as possible. I am convinced that if I had implemented them, I would still be married. In retrospect, I did everything besides 180. I looked pathetic. No one wants to be perceived as pathetic. 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive. (Making it)

So here's the list:

Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
No frequent phone calls.
Don't point out "good points" in marriage.
Don't follow her/him around the house.
Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future.
Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS.
Don't ask for reassurances.
Don't buy or give gifts.
Don't schedule dates together.
Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable.
Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!
Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.
Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!
When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to!
If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.
Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the WS)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack thee of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life? with out them!
Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing.
No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.
All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!
Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF!
Don't be overly enthusiastic.
Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!
Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!
Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.
Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.
Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.
Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.
Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.
Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care!
Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.
Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!"
Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.
When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW."

HTLD, could you please post this to Patriot. I think he really needs it.

God's Blessings,

Say

Wow, thanks for the guide there. Yesterday was interesting to say the least. Me and the WS took the kids out and played in the snow, my WS kept daring me to do all these things on the sled which I did most of them because it was fun We played in the snow and me and her rode the sled together (just us) a few times and she had a real good time with the family.

I let her wear alot of my snow gear which most of the time I would get mad if she wore my stuff. Even little things i would used to get upset over doesn't bother me, like i would HATE it and fuss when she would use my brush to brush her hair, yesterday she asked if I knew where a brush was and I gave her mine.
She said "you HATE it when I use your brush" I said it's no big deal I can just clean it out when I use it (because she gets ALOT of hair in it) after we played in the snow I went out to eat with some friends and I got REALLY dressed up and put on some nice cologne, when I got home she was in a REALLY good mood and said "Jon come here, look what I got the kids!" and she showed me these toys she had been looking for for a few months that she finally found.
Then once we tucked the kids in I went in our bedroom and started watching tv, she came in there and seen a show she said was interesting so I turned it on because I couldn't find anything else to watch, and me and her sat in our bed and watched it together. It was called "big love" if anyone has ever heard of it. She spent like 30 mins explaining the show and who all the characters were and we just talked, every time she spoke i made a point to look in her eyes which is not something I ever did before.
I know it doesn't sound like much but until yesterday my WS pretty much ignored me 100% when we were in the house together and she pretty much made a point to stay in the opposite room.
I don't want to get my hopes up because I still think she is dead set on filing, but at least we were able to have a good time yesterday.

The bad news is she has to go on site and work today to get updates for her computer (normally she works at home) The OM works on site and he now works in a different dept and I overheard her talking to her best friend saying how she would love to talk to him but doesn't think she will be able to since everyone at work knows whats going on, She laid out her nicest clothes and is going to get REALLY fixed up before she goes in. I have a few friends that do work there and they are going to be watching for me to see if they talk. the OM has not contacted her AT ALL and he even removed her as a friend on facebook. She was in a VERY bad mood for like 2 days after that happened.
What do you all think is going through her head right now?

I just had a bit of a run in, my WS though I had been messing with her laptop which i wasn't. She said "at this point we might as well just be 100% honest with each other, if you want to see my history and what all I do on my laptop then your more than welcome to it" then she said "I don't like all this sneaking around and snooping all the time, we need to just be open and honest at this point"
once i told her I wasn't messing with her laptop she said "well you can see how i would think you were messing with it" I said yes i can see that it did look as if I was.
I was in the bathroom where her laptop was and the kids were in living room playing, she came in and said "what are you doing"? i said "I'm rinsing out my mouth" after she got out of the shower she came and said "your toothbrush isn't in the bathroom you couldn't have been brushing your teeth". I said "I was rinsing my mouth out not brushing my teeth"
After all of this she had to carry her computer to the car which is way up on the hill and she couldn't carry it because it was way to heavy, so i helped her carry up to the car which she got stuck in the snow, then I had to come get the car unstuck and get it to where she could drive it out.
Am I doing to much for her? There was no way possible she could have carried the computer up there by herself nor could she have got the car out of the snow.

No, you are doing a very effective plan A. I would though instead of defending yourself try to reverse babble her.

I forget Jon, did you expose at her/OM's work?

yes everyone knows about it at her work place. Today when she left she said "does this outfit make me look whorish"? I said "no i think you look hot" she said "well i wasn't trying to look hot, i wanted to look professional." then she said "everyone at work thinks im a whore anyway" i said "well I can understand why they would" and she didn't respond. I don't know if that was a good thing to say or not...

I think the only reason she has been in such a good mood the passed few days is because of the possibility of her seeing him and even a chance of her talking to him at work today, or it could be she is finally SLOWLY defogging.
At this point I don't know what to think anymore.

Guys i think I had moved into plan doormat previously. i had been doing pretty much opposite of all the advice HTLD posted. I had been constantly asking her if theres anything I can do for her and everything was about HER.
I just had a wake up call right when I thought everything was going good, and from reading my previous post earlier you can see why I thought that.
Tonight she got news from her work that if she fails to meet her productivity this month she will be fired. So she came out to me upset saying "everything is crashing down on me to fast, I don't want to talk, I just want to do nothing, I want to sit back and do absolutely nothing" then she mentioned all the things going on and said "I'm at risk of losing my job, I still have to get attorney and get this divorce over with etc.." I got up and walked out of the room and didn't say anything, she asked "where did you go, what are you doing"? I didn't answer then she went back into her work room.
I truly had been so naive in thinking we were passed the divorce stage and was moving forward on the right track. someone SLAP ME HARD! I am going to try the 180 plan A to the fullest and make everything about ME. I need your help because i am easily persuaded back to being her doormat.

It's very clear that she has not put her priority in R her M with you. This is very sad to say but another well known author by the name of David Carder has written a book about infidelity and unequivocally states that without "godly sorrow" on the part of the unfaithful spouse, there is little chance of recorey.

The book is entitled "Torn Assunder" and has a lot of invaluable information.

Her priority now should be saving the M, not her job or her status with fellow employess. They all know and have formed their own opinion about her already.

All Blessings,
Jerry










All Blessings,
Jerry

180 is not Plan-A

180 is a plan that comes from a different site I believe. I think it is Divorce Busters.

my wife is so far from God right now I don't know if she will ever get back. She is supposed to start a women's bible study with her friends this Wed and I hope and pray that she really starts getting into it. I am going to do the 180, not plan A. i have been on plan A for around a month now and obviousy it's not working.

actually let me restate that, I have pretty much been plan doormat for awhile, plan A is about ME everything I have been doing was about HER. I need to move on with my life, I am literally being mentally tortured on a daily basis, it's exhausting, frustrating and downright evil on her part. She mentions D like it's no big deal at all, and finding an attorney is one of her biggest concerns right now....give me a break!

Jon ,
The bible study might be good for her, because my guess is she is looking for biblical grounds to divorce you. Guess what? She is not going to find it and will quickly quit that group as soon as she realizes it.

She still has to meet Jesus!! "Godly Sorrow' is what will bring her home again.

All blessings,
Jerry

I did Plan-A for several months, about 5 I think. A good Plan-A makes Plan-B very potent.

180 would not have worked on my wife, it does on some, but not as man as Plan-A.

Plan-A is also not Plan-Door mat, it is firm love. Showing the WS what the M could be.

180 is Plan-I don't care what you do.

shinethrough she is fairly knowledged in the bible and knows she has no grounds for divorce. she knows I DO have grounds for D bust she is to far gone to care what God thinks or what the bible says.

Strangely, she has not filed Yet.

Then why all the pretense except to sheepishly pretend that that she did everything she could to save the M?

talk to your pastor or priest and ask them to intervene.

All Blessings,
Jerry

I think that I did a 180 Plan by instinct before I found MB. It had a slight effect on my WH but the effect it had on me was the part I didn't like. When I did Plan A, it was my giver working over time but I felt REALLY good. I started wearing my hair different, and dressing differently. People started to compliment me all of the time at how good I looked. I was even wearing makeup. I changed my perfume back to the brand my WH likes.

I got some really BAD feedback from my WH. It hurt me to the core. I had to go out for drives and scream at the world. I drove in my car with the music blaring and me screaming to the point where I would lose my voice. I would come on here and vent to people and they would explain what my WH's reactions were.

When my WH was uncomfortable and sleeping so far away from me that he could have fallen off the bed, that meant that he was uncomfortable and for me that was a positive. When he was comfortable, it meant I was going along with what he wanted and that was bad for R. It was frustrating.

I slipped. There were even times when I wanted to give up. Then I would talk about it on here and people would tell me I was a "Rock Star" and how well I was doing. I didn't believe them. I felt like it was having no effect. But then I realized that it must have been. He started doing things for me. That was strange.

It wasn't enough though and I knew there was an end in sight. Will I R? Yes. Will I R my M? That remains to be seen. The best thing about following my Plan is that I know that in the end, I will have done everything I could have to save my M. There will be no guilt and no What ifs.

On a side note about Plan A, sometimes I wonder if I did it long enough before I went Plan B. All I have to do is re read my thread and remember what it felt like then. I am a better person for having done it with a plan and I will be okay either way.

The best advice I can give you is to react out of intellect and not purely on emotions.

Don't give up.

I don't plan on being mean. I still plan on keeping up with ALL the housework, and having a great time with my kids. I will be polite when she talks to me but I will not engage in conversation.
I did look weak and pathetic before and I think I was doing plan Door-mat and doing everything for HER and nothing was for ME. I am going to start getting out and hanging out with my friends, I am not going to make myself available 24/7 like I was before. plan 180 isn't that far off from plan A it's more of a change of attitude.
After doing a solid plan A for a month with NO response other than her being upset because she doesn't have a divorce attorney and when she says this to me expecting me to be all happy and still do everything for her.
My wife threw herself out there and trusted the OM and now he doesn't want anything to do with her, she is at very high risk of losing her job, she has ALOT going on right now and the one thing she mentions to me that she is worried about is not having a divorce attorney.

Also, my WS sleeps on the couch and won't even DARE come sleep in the bed with me, not because I won't let her or don't want her to she said "It would be way to ackward to sleep in the same bed now" etc.... I did think things were going great for awhile but then she mentioned D like it was nothing and that she is worried because she don't even have an attorney. She acts nice and happy like nothing is going on when she is around me, but she is depressed and is going through alot mentally right now. Thats the one reason I am still sticking around because I took a vow through sickness and in health and right now I believe she is just sick.
Also if and/or when it comes to plan B thats going to be complicated for the no contact, but thats another story completely.

Jonpen,

I doubt she is going to divorce you right now. She's just hitting rock bottom. You need to do stuff for you, but you can also be there to help her back up when she reaches bottom. You are starting to do plan A better. The walking away when she brought up the attorney was perfect. If you keep that up and avoid getting baited into arguments like that, eventually she'll stop bringing it up. She doesn't want to take the financial hit of divorce right now, especially with her job at risk. You will have an opportunity to start meeting more of her needs. If you avoid lovebusters (by lovingly detaching and doing the 180 thing), she will feel more comfortable with you and want you to meet more. Pretty soon, if you can keep this up she'll possibly start wanting to work on the marriage again.

I know you don't realize it, but you are in a much better situation than about 90% of the other posters on this board. Your OM ended it immediately with your WW, and there is no active affair. Sure, your WW isn't through withdrawal, but she'll get there. If your WW has no active affair, there is no impetus to leave. 90+% of women will not leave their marriage if there is no other man around to at least meet some of their needs. If you keep an eye on her, and no OM#2 comes around, you have a chance to start chipping away at the wall. Keep up the good work.

How would it be complicated for the no contact? You get yourself ready and get IMs in place. You write out a visitation and financial addendum to your plan B letter and give it to her. It is easily accomplished, even in your sitch.

Jon- I honestly think that what has happened is that you are letting your TAKER come through. There is a fine line between Plan A and Plan Doormat. Your taker will be screaming in your ear, "WHAT ABOUT MEEEEEEEEEEEEEE? WHAT ABOUT MY NEEDS?" It is something that you have to deal with yourself.

Plan A is about yourself but none of your needs are getting met and WW is making a lot of withdrawals in your LB account right now. That is why Plan A is a temporary state. You are supposed to change to Plan B before you lose to much love for your WW in the event that you can R your M in the future.

Have you read other people's threads who have completed a successful Plan A? or R?

If you don't want to follow MB concepts in an attempt to R your M, no one here will argue with that choice. If you want help on getting D, there are many people who can help you achieve that. It's your decision to make and you have to live with the consequences. Best of luck to you.

If one of her top EM's is conversation, this won't help meet that need.

But you should not talk D, just walk away when she brings it up.

Well don't do that.

Thats why Plan-A has a time limit.


You have posted better responses from your WW than I have seen from several after many Months of Plan-A

Jon, your just not getting it are you?

Stop listening to her and look at the facts!

She has the money to hire a lawyer and get a divorce.
She has an Aunt that is pushing her to get a divorce.
She has time to go interview and hire an attorney and file for divorce.

Then why hasn't she?

Seriously, I want you to post an answer to that here. I want to know why you think she has not filed yet when she can at any moment.

Typical Wayward crap.

I agree 100%

Your chances of recovery is high.

Yup, and I don't think anyone can blame him. But if he wants R then he needs to either rein his taker in, or go to Plan-B.

She's not going to file, she's not going to file, she's not going to file.

Your recent setback was because you moved back in. That was just a temporary setback because you now have the opportunity to meet her needs and keep OM#2 from coming into the picture and meeting her needs. OM was her escape, he's now out of the picture, and now she's stuck. Show her through your plan A that being "stuck" with you isn't so bad.

I'll go even further. If you can keep up a good plan A, she'll be sleeping in the same bed with you by the ned of the month. You've just got to suck it up for a little longer until she gets through withdrawal and you start building up some love units. Think of fun things to do that could deposit some love units that aren't heavy, relationship things.

HMMMMMM I had an interesting thought, but I don't know that it goes along with MB. Is there any way that you can make sleeping on the couch uncomfortable for her, in a way she wouldn't know it was done on purpose? Maybe you could place a toy under a cushion, or close a vent in the LR to make it colder at nighttime? Nothing too intrusive but maybe make it more "comfortable" to sleep in the same bed as you.

JP-I think you need to listen to these vets, they told you before what her reactions would be and that she wouldn't file and you didn't believe them then. They were RIGHT. They may not be right forever but they know of what they speak. You are doing GREAT and you are getting responses from her. Don't let her foggy babble D talk ruin what you have been doing so far.

Honestly, how much better off are you than 1 month ago? You sleep in your own bed every night, your children are with you and your wife is in the same house. You'll get there. It is a long hard journey but anything in life worth getting is worth fighting for. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

This is fine if her top EN is domestic support and conversation is #10 on her list. For most women, though, conversation is in the top 3 and usually #1.

I think this is a gross strategic error.
What are her top 3 ENs?
How are you meeting them?

IMO another strategic error. You are supposed to spend your fun time with your wife, not outside the marriage. Do fun things but invite her to join you!

Do not concern yourself with what she's saying. She is insane right now. You get your Plan A lined up and stick to it. MANY a WS has said later that they saw the changes, became angry because they didn't know how to deal with the conflict the changes created, and in the end that is one of the main things that drew them back home.

Write down your Plan A.
Stick to it.
Don't concern yourself with her words. Plan A is about *acting* and you are *reacting*.

Read this Jon
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...t&Number=2296184&nt=2&page=1

Your WW is in crisis now. She's starting to realize that her poor choices have far-reaching repercussions.

Can you convince her to tackle one problem at a time? As in: "Honey, you've got a lot on your plate. Let me help you tackle these things. Let's hold off on any talks about D and concentrate on saving your job. It could be that you're trying to do too many life-altering things all at once. That's too much for anyone." Then brain-storm a plan with her to salvage her job.

That will buy time from her divorce mind-set, possibly save her job, and you'll look like a hero for helping her get her priorities straight. You'll be working on Priority #1 - saving your M. She'll think you're working on her job.

Just a thought.

ble. It is hard to see Plan A as more than doing really nice things for someone who is undeserving and who gives nothing back. I think that Plan A helps you to rediscover yourself and the good that lies within you and as a side effect, your WS may also see the person that they fell in love with. Thinking of yourself as Ark describes it may help you to go that extra mile.

I hope some others find comfort from the storm...


Your spouse is in huge conflict....

the good news is and the truth is that they are totally incapable of a healthy relationship with anyone right now...

the competition we believe that exist with the OP is a shallow empty reflection of Gods light in this world...

It is empty and lonely no matter how good the rush

their actions are actions that they themselves do not like in themselves right now....though the need to go back again again and attempt to prove themselves wrong or right is strong...they do not like what they are doing...

their actions towards you, the children, the OP, and themselves...keep them from engaging in any type of real interactions...with real depth and truth

all they offer are misguided attempts to fill the void that has appeared in their life...
yet the filling is way too fleeting to sustain them and the truth is with them each night he or she lays down regardless of whom is next to them....

they are the living cliche..of no matter where you go to hide...there YOU are...

he or she is lost to themselves...

and you stand at that point of being the lighthouse home....even though they create the waves that block their vision from seeing that...

You become the lighthouse..you fill your home with light, calmness and sanctuary...

see just visualize yourself as a lighthouse...

Your offer them glimpses into that sanctuary at every chance you get...
you invite them towards it...let them know it is there as much as you can in a most subtle way....

they are untrustable right now...
but you know that...so they can't hurt you right now...they will spend great energy to convince others differently...but you know better...

you show the path by also protecting the children from their painful actions.....
set clear boundaries that the OP is not part of your childrens lives....
without lovebusting...
offer alternatives that let them see the children...but be clear that the OP is to have no access to them...
you fill the childrens lives with stability....they deserve it and need it more than anything else....

Do not discuss and or powerstruggle with them on irrational movements...seek out and validate the rational ones with lots of praise for when he or she chooses correctly....

your spouse is very lonely and sad right now..but that is OK...no one can stay very long in that chaos...it is wearisome to the soul...
and remove yourself from any aspect of participating or adding to the chaos...and eventually they will see that you are the only one...who stood with clarity and reason when they needed it most...


be the lighthouse....
OK that's really out there I know....

strength to you all..
ARK

God's Blessings,

Say

Jon,

Some of my previous post got cut off by my own deplorable lack of computer skills. The previous post was posted by PepperBand to another poster. I thought it might help you to get through the hard days of Plan A.

God's Blessings,

Say

Jon, you are getting GREAT results from your plan A. Plan A is not plan doormat...plan A is making YOU the best H you can be and meeting her top 5 EN's without expecting anything in return. That includes making home a welcome, safe haven and taking care of your children. It does not mean engaging in R talk or D talk or letting your WW walk all over you.

Jon, you are letting your taker out of its pen too soon! Get your ducks in a row for a pitch black plan B while doing a STELLAR plan A. I have more hope for your M than many this early.

I'm glad you all can see things from the outide where I am only able to see them from the inside. Your right in the way I feel, like I am supposed to do all these nice things to this undeserving person. Her aunt said she will not assist in the D until she finds out if my WS gets to keep her job, so that buys another month.
It's almost impossible to meet her top EN's when she is so openly hurtful. And JMWC I'll take you up on that she will be sleeping in the same bed by then end of the month

Jon, you CAN meet her EN's while she is openly hurtful but you need to put the armour of MB on first. Get yourself pumped up for plan A and tell yourself over and over this is not about "you", this is not about "your" failings or shortcomings, this is WW needing a life preserver while she flails around in the deep, dark waters of her sin. Be her life preserver, Jon. Be the beacon of light that draws her out of the darkness. You CAN do this!!!

Well why not?

And did you hear this directly from the Aunt?

Is this Aunt currently married?
How many divorces has she had?

Probably because whether WW is employed or not will have a huge impact on child support, alimony, and division of assets. Just a guess.

I used the "armor of God" as I had not yet found MB. It works every bit as good. :-D

God's Blessings,

Say

Me too, saynomore..I am just not certain where jonpen with his faith. Since I believe Dr. H's plan was God given it is a good analogy as well.

I am a christian, and I have became alot closer to God since this happened, I read and study my bible around 1-2 hours daily. And yes Gack I heard it straight from her aunt that she would not assist with the D until after she finds out about my Ws job. Also she told me she doesn't want the D and is praying God will help my WS come back to being herself. Aunt was married 1 time for a long time and her husband passed away from cancer.

Show the aunt you are fighting for you WW and your marriage and you will have an ally.

Good, Jon, then write down Ephesians 6:10-18 on a note card, carry it with you and read it often. It was my mantra for many months during our R.

God's Blessings,

Say

Not only will you have ANOTHER ally, your WW will lose her most powerful one. It is just a good side effect. Ride out this storm. What do you have to lose? KEEP UP THE GREAT JOB.

Jon,

MB has a lot of people that don't like the 180. All I know is that it was the only thing I ever did that had some sort of effect.

It's a guide and is NOT incompatible with Plan A. The 180 is about restoring your self respect, giving the WW a little bit of "what's he up to?" and restoring some self confidence when you feel none.

It works. I don't think it's incompatible with Plan A and I think it goes hand in hand with it and so do many others. But there's plenty who disagree.

It is NOT an MB concept.

But that doesn't make it invalid.

Ummm.....

Jon you have told us multiple times that the Aunt was Pushing your Wife HARD for a divorce. Basically spearheading the movement because she believed that was the only thing that would make WW happy.

Now she doesn't want yall to divorce?!!??

What gives?

Well I just knew her aunt kept mentioning the D to my WS. I had not actually talked to her about it myself, and she called me out of the blue a few days ago.
Her aunt knows my WS is not herself and is very confused right now, and she doesn't want us to D because I help her ALOT around here with yard work etc..and me and her aunt used to go to movies and stuff together that my WS didn't want to see.
To be honest I spend more time with her family then she does, and they ALL love me alot, but when my WS gets to telling them things it kind of brainwashes them into thinking everything will still be the same after the D. Meaning, I will still come hang out with them, and we will all still go out as a family etc... Her whole family is against the D but they will finance it if it's what they think my WS really wants.

Also her aunt was the one supposed to be calling lawyers etc...but appearantly she never did. Like I said I have at least a month and I agree with HTLD that plan A and the 180 can go hand in hand, I'm going to be doing a mixture of both, because I have lost all self respect and self value, and I have been letting my Ws walk all over me.

I am going out of town this weekend with my brothers and some friends. My WS said today "I'm excited you all get to go out this weekend i know you all will have alot of fun" I was like WHAT? she brings up the big D like it's nothing then says this the next day, also she has been acting overly nice since she mentioned the D and I walked off.
She asked ME if she could fix me something to eat last night after she said it, and that never happens.
I am living with a demon posessed alien woman.....who knows

Repeat after me, your wife is not going to file.

First she already filed; then she was going to file, you know your wife and you are sure she's going to file; then she's going to meet with a lawyer; then it's now she hasn't been able to find a lawyer; now it's she can afford a lawyer and won't look for one for at least a month.

Your divorce is not going to happen unless YOU get sick of your wife and YOU choose to file. Your wife isn't going anywhere. So, you can either dwell on it and worry yourself to death. Or, you can continue plan A and get her more willing to commit back to the marriage and meeting your needs.

Spend this time working on wooing your WW back to the marriage. She's not going anywhere, you just want to woo her back to meeting your needs again. You have to give to get. Be strong, be confident.

wtf

Double post

things are bad right now guys, very bad, I can't keep going. she is talking to my mom about how bad i used to treat her and trust me I did treat her bad, and I did make her cry EVERY day for a long time. I don't blame myself for what she did, but I do understand that she doesn't feel she could ever come back from that and she even said to my mom she knows I have changed but "it's to little to late" She said she can't do it anymore and ALOT more things. i will post the rest later, she is in other room atm.

ARE YOU DENSE! It's not too late. Just ignore it right now. You just haven't demonstrated change long enough yet. Quit dwelling on your relationship now. It will improve with time. Your wife is just conflicted right now and trying to justify her actions. We've told you this a million times. Just prove yourself over time.

I am not dense. I am hurt beyond imagination. I would rather endure physical torture than what I am going through. So when she files and regardless of what you all think she WILL FILE how do I act then? I will continue to prove myself, I have put all trust in God now. This situation is in his hands.

Do you not think that you have to do any work even if you have put this in God's hands or do you think that HE would have you just throw in the towel?

My WH took off his wedding ring, looked straight in my eyes and told me, "It's OVER. THERE is NOTHING left to save. I am DONE. We are DONE." and I still Plan A'd him. It hurt like heck. But what kept and keeps me going is HOPE and FAITH. I didn't find this site by accident. I feel like it was an answer to my prayers. It was my guiding light.

Stop focusing on what MIGHT happen. I am a person who needs a Plan and I have one. Plan B, AFTER I did a SOLID PLAN A

Here are some things I said during my Plan A(there were two threads, UMMM I installed a keylogger.... and Believes H has been having an EA....) Does any of this sound familiar?









This was just from November 17th until November 27th when I installed the keylogger and my world came CRASHING down.

Follow the rest of my journey so far on my thread"ummmmm i installed a keylogger and..." and that is 95 pages worth and counting.

What a rollercoaster ride. But you know what, I wouldn't change it for the WORLD.

Things will not get better if you give up.

More time will only help to show your changes are here to stay.

I don't know if this was posted to you yet, saw it on someone else's thread

I am still going to be doing all the things I have been doing already. Tonight was VERY VERY emotional for me and her both. She brought up the D and said "what day next week would be good for you to come with me to an attorney so we can do this together with no fight"? i said "I'm not going to an attorney you do what you have to do" she got VERY mad because I had previously agreed to go with her.
Also I said "I'm not holding you here your free to go, I don't want the D but i'm not stopping you from going" she said "Yes you are! and you are only hurting the kids if you fight anything in this D by taking money away from them!" I remained calm she started cussing saying this is BS and not bs as in "betrayed spouse"
My wife has NEVER said a curse word to me since we have been married, so when she started I got up and walked away.
Thats when she called my mom and they had a VERY emotional conversation and of course my mom is on my side but it won't help in changing my WS mind about the D.
I won't give up, I have peace with God and I will continue to seek him and trust in him.
right now I am 50/50 in half wants this D and the other half doesn't. Have you all ever felt this way?

Jon,

I am struggling to see that you're understanding plan A. STOP PANICKING. You've been told a zillion times in this thread to ignore her crazy actions. When are you going to get this?

You should not expect your WW to give you anything at this point. You've just started in this process. You should let go of the notion that your WW is going to act as a normal person at this point. Yes, you're hurt - we understand how difficult it is to be in that position. But you need to exercise more self-control if you want to survive this situation.

What you control is YOUR actions. Be consistent and keep changing into a better version of Jonpen. I am sure that your WW is sensing the same panic and inconsistencies that some of your posts reflect. A WS can smell fear from a mile away. She'll use your fear to try to bully you into enabling the A. Don't let your emotions get the best of you. So be strong and concentrate on a solid plan A. Show her what an awesome H you can be and keep guarded against the A.

Think that you can make it and act accordingly. Don't dwell on her actions so much. Trust God but you also need to trust yourself.

How about you discuss the specifics of your plan A. Can you post a list of actions that you can do to step up your plan A?

--ElCamino72

OKAY moment is desperately needed. Do you understand that you are luckier than MOST.

First, the affair is OVER.
Second, you are in your HOME with your wife and kids.

I am quite jealous of you really.

YES I AM JEALOUS OF YOU.

Knock Knock. You get that? My WH is living WITH POSOW. He visits with our children every Sunday for 9.5hours and every other Saturday for 9.5hours. Where does he take our children? TO POSOW's house. They act like one big "HAPPY FAMILY". On Christmas day, my WH came and picked up my children and brought them to HER house. I was at home ALONE on Christmas day while POSOW had my ENTIRE family. What was I doing? I was on here. And I was hoping beyond all hope that my WH would come home and his AFFAIR would be OVER.

Wanna trade spots with me? because I would LOVE to trade spots with you. Hey, I am just being honest and helping you understand that what the vets are telling you is worth it. It WORKS. Not all of the time, but more times than not. I BELIEVE in the system. I HAVE FAITH IN MB.

There I am done my rant. Did you get it alright?

Plenty of people plan A for 6+ months WHILE their spouse is ACTIVELY in an affair. I am not trying to make light of your situation, but 90% of new posters here probably wish they were in your shoes. Your WW's affair is over.

If you were as bad as you say you were, then you owe it to your WW and kids to suck it up for as long as it takes.

As long as you do not agree to divorce or an easy divorce, your WW will not file. She does not want to take the financial hit. Keep doing plan A on her, regardless of what she says. No relationship talks. No agreeing to anything that would facilitate divorce. You are not pursuing divorce. If she wants to, than she can do so on her own, but it will be expensive and it will be ugly. If she says you are hurting the kids by fighting the divorce, she is hurting the kids by pursuing the divorce. No divorce talk. You don't want it, don't agree to it. Trust us, if you behave right, it will eventually blow over. Copping this self-defeating attitude that you should probably just go along with it now because she won't change her mind is a mistake. Hold firm, pull it together, and fight for your family. And treat your wife right, no matter how she is treating you right now. If you continue to treat her right, she'll eventually treat you right.

You act as if we haven't already talked to hundreds of people in your exact same situation. Your marriage can be save if you are willing to put in the work. No affair 99% of the time = no divorce.

I read a few times that you trusted in God Jon. I will read this whole thread before I get into a lot of hair-splitting but being a christian myself and having my share of marital problems I just have to ask you this very pointed question. I hope you get released from bondage by it and I pray I deliver it correctly.

Christ was the sacrifice God demanded to suffer for mans sins. We as people are limited to how much we can, or should, endure from others. We are called by God first to honor him and then his spiritual law. In that order.

If someone we love loses there freakin mind all we can do is stand up for the truth, and your WW leaving and asking you "to be so kind" as to give her a divorce is nothing but a trick of the mind she believes falsley now is her way to happiness. In christian jargon its called a "stronghold" of the mind. A Place that was built up by our own weaknesses to the flesh.
Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.


For a while you should do as scotland says and be assured Jon, The things you do to avoid a divorce as you stand up for yourself will be honored by God. Do not be tempted to panic and get so emotional that you lose respect from her and for yourself. If she leaves it will be her deal. We and others will be here for you but most important God will.

Trust God for the consquences of your obediance to him. Hate the sin and not he sinner.

I can tell you that after 20 years of a really struggling marraige my wife came to me and defied all the mandates that we had recieved from God and told me she was leaving. I felt that God gave up on me and all the waiting and sacrifice was a joke. I feel apart like I can't describe. Maybe Im just being emotional because I hear that song "The Flame"--by Cheap Trick playing in the background and its a trigger.

Anyways here is a scripture that God gave me to help me thru as I was spiraling down fast back then.

Jerimiah:15
19Therefore thus saith the LORD, If thou return, then will I bring thee again, and thou shalt stand before me: and if thou take forth the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth: let them return unto thee; but return not thou unto them.

20And I will make thee unto this people a fenced brasen wall: and they shall fight against thee, but they shall not prevail against thee: for I am with thee to save thee and to deliver thee, saith the LORD.

21And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.
Stand for God and before him for strength Jon. Don't buy into her emotions.

Hope this helps

I have faith in MB or I wouldn't still be on here seeking advice on a daily basis. as for my plan A, I have been doing everything I can. I converse with her and look in her eyes and actually LISTEN when she speaks, I keep the house SPOTLESS which before I never did ANYTHING. I tell her I am here for her, and I try to be here for her but she won't let me.

I cook dinner even though she hardly eats anymore. When she talks about OM she never says it's over she says things like "I don't know what will happen with me and him, but I am not basing my decision to leave you on him" <---this is a LIE (she is still clinging to the hope there might be a possibility she can be with him)she has NEVER once said they are OVER even though he has nothing to do with her at all.
I try to avoid LB at all cost. i know I have been expecting too much too soon, and I can't help it.

She admited I have changed and she knows that I have but she is still not willing to R our M, she still wants out. Scotland I can't imagine being in your situation and i know my could be much worse, I thank God it's not.
I am doing the best I can, but everytime I get my hopes up and think were moving forward they come CRASHING down when she still mentions the D.

Another interesting thing happened today, she made a new facebook account using a false name, and an old email address, after the big emotional fit.
She still listens to HIS favorite music and researches all the witchraft stuff HE is into, she gets on his facebook page and looks at all his pictures everyday then she goes to his wife's page and looks at hers. She is in major denial and withdrawl. I don't ever plan on quiting plan A I am just not going to over do it as I was before. I am going to be the BEST version of ME that I can be. Thank you all so much for being here for me and guiding me along this awful path, I always take your advice to heart.

"As long as you do not agree to divorce or an easy divorce, your WW will not file. She does not want to take the financial hit"

There is no financial hit, I make 0 money and her mamaw is financing it.

She wants out only because she's pining for OM and thinks that will make a difference (and she wants to be available for OM in the future). "If OM sees that I got divorced, maybe that will make him feel guilty about just dumping me and he'll come running back." Your WW is still in FANTASYLAND. The checking up on his facebook and junk will only delay her withdrawal. Trust us. After six months of NC, the fog will clear and your plan A (if you can execute it) will have chipped down the wall. Your WW is not going anywhere. Maybe get some of Dr. Harley's books, read them, and leave them around the house for her to maybe stumble across.

Financial hit.

lol, Jim your good my friend
So EVERYTIME she mentions D avoid the conversation at all cost? If she fights it I will stand strong in saying "I will not have any part to do with this D" etc...but not in an angry or hateful way, just a stern way, I messed up about a week ago when I gave in to the "amicable" D speech and agreed to a few things that have came back to bite me now.

Just breathe Jon Its in Gods hands anyways. Your marriage is gonna change either way. Its up to you to do what it takes for YOU first. If she follows then thats good too.

did you read my post on last page?

I did sorted and I really appreciate all of that, I copied those passages and i will use them daily.

Can you elaborate on what is making you expect anything from a WW that's in withdrawal? You should read your entire thread again and see how many times you've been told to only expect crazy babble and venom from her.

Again, why are HOPING? Her mentioning D is a way to push your buttons. Her goal is to discourage and manipulate you with D conversations. Just ignore her D talk. Be prepared for war if it gets to that point but don't let her torture you with her mind games. I think we've tried to drive this message to you quite a few times. What is it that you don't understand about this?

Have you expressed to her that this behavior is unacceptable. You might need to get into some creative boundary enforcement. What are you willing to do to disrupt these actions?

I'll disagree with you. You DO want to quit plan A at some point. If you don't understand that then you're doomed. Plan A is temporary. There's no way you can do it indefinitely. Part of the idea is to show your WW that you can change. Make it difficult for her to leave you. And if you move to plan B (which is likely) then you leave her with the impression of how good Jonpen can be.

What do you mean by "over do" plan A? That sounds a little ambivalent when you're saying you want to be the "BEST" version of yourself. If you want to be the BEST version of yourself then you pull all the stops. What you don't want is to let fear flap you around or be a doormat. Executing a solid plan A requires commitment. I suggest you go a read the plan A links that have been posted in this thread.

The ball is in your court. Play to win.

Explain

"she gets on his facebook page and looks at all his pictures everyday then she goes to his wife's page and looks at hers"

Time for a new round of exposure. Tell OMW that they need to block WW from their FB page.

Which means if you get at least 50/50 shared custody, your WW will be paying you child suppport and possible alimony. To put it in perspective, the 750 / mo I pay my exWW in CS to the time they are emancipated is basically an annuity worth #134,000. Filing for divorce is the cheap part. When you have kids, it's the financial hit that keeps on giving for decades.

Even though I don't HAVE to explain myself so you can better understand it Gack, I speak to her aunt everyday, nowhere in my post does it say I spoke to her about the D. Her aunt will still be doing all the work for my WS if she mentions she still wants to file.
I didn't know up until that point her aunt didn't want us to get a D. so to sum it up Her aunt=will still help finance and get an attorney for my WS and even do all the work involved therein that she is legally allowed, but her aunt=does not want us to get a D.

X2!

Jon,

Plan A is acknowledged to be an emotinally wrenching period for the BS. It is not intended to be something you do forever. Plan B is to force the affair to end, but it appears to be over. You're going through withdrawl on her part right now.

My gut tells me that they're still in contact in some way. I could be wrong, but it could be the case.

You can block facebook yourself. Unless she can access it from work, it should make it very tough for her to get on there.

How technically savvy is she? You can access your router and block facebook from there.

I would also advise you to make sure to contact OM's W to let her know that your WW is still accessing their FB page and looking at her and him. Tell them so they can block her.

Just curious: Was he into actual witchcraft or is that what you're calling things that you consider to be witchcraft? What do you mean by witchcraft?

Jon, listen to me carefully. I asked you several times if you had spoken to her Aunt, you said yes. I was not asking if you had spoken to her about the weather, I was asking if you spoke to her about your marriage. You maid it very clear that you had, and she wanted you to divorce.

Turns out thats not true.

We are all trying to help you Jon. The more accurate the information we receive from you, the better we can advise you. Had I known you had not actually talked to her Aunt about the divorce I would have advised you do so immediately.

Help us help you Jon, you can do that with accurate information.

Now, since we now know her Aunt does not want the two of you to divorce, you need to talk to the Aunt again about your marriage and the affair. Tell her you love your wife very much and want to save your marriage and ask her to please help you in any way she can. You may have a powerful allie here Jon that we did not know you had.

Next!
It's time to get back on the phone with OM's Wife. Tell her about your wifes constant pinning for her H, her continuous stalking of them on FaceBook, and that you firmly believe they are still in contact.

Will you do these things Jon?

We all know that Jon, almost all of us went through it.

I literally vomited one night from the pain.


Why hasn't she then?

Have you spoken to this Mawmaw ABOUT YOUR MARRIAGE?
(Whats a Mawmaw anyway, Is that her Grandmother?)
Have you told her that you love your wife? That you don't want a divorce? Have you asked her to pleas help you anyway she can to save your marriage?


We will take it day by day Jon.
You are getting good advice from everyone Jon, and I truly believe if you can follow the advice, and implement MB strategies you will recover this M. Your in a much better place than I and most BS posters where when they found MB.

Jon, I want to quote something from one of my favorite movies, "Forrest Gump".

"God is listening, but you must help yourself"

What this means is the good lord helps those who trust in him, but also try and help themselves.

Jon,

We all understand your pain as we have all been through it. I could not keep food down for more than a week, was trying to function on two or three hours a night and I even totally blacked out and literally crumpled to the floor several times. What I don't understand is your defensiveness with people who have seen success working through this and are taking their time to help you and your unwillingness tom help yourself.

Please read Bob Pure's post to 26 years in her "I just can't take it anymore thread". 26 is another one in panic mode. While panic is understandable it is exceedingly unproductive. Do you understand that all of us have been through this, heard the same wayward fog babble and many have recovered their M to a new and better place, myself included.

Your situation is NOT unique. As it turns out, it appears that you have taken much for granted and have not even exposed from your point of view to your WW's family that you claim to be close to. Do that! Your assumptions are killing you.

God's Blessings,

Say

I have told her family how I feel, and they all are against the D. they know she is very confused and mixed up right now, but they believe into the fact that it's not because of the OM she wants a D.
She has told her family how bad I used to treat her etc...and they believe thats the reason even though I tell them otherwise over and over.

I can't let her or her family know that I am still spying on her because if she finds out I can watch what she is doing while on her laptop I won't be able to gather anymore valuable info.
They are not talking anymore she just gets on there and looks at his pictures, I know it will delay the withdrawl but it's better than them talking.

I am just going to be the best version of ME that I can, and take it one day at a time.
Gack I know I mentioned talking to her aunt and she is just as confused as everyone else, she wants my WS happy and thinks this D will make her happy but she doesn't want us to get a D, she would much rather us work things out but if it's what her little sweet niece wants then she will help her. I have taken every single bit of your alls advice, I come here to vent instead of doing that to my wife, so when I say things it's because I'm an emotional wreck.

I am at peace with my situation because I know God will look out for me and He will know I have done the right thing, but I still hurt from time to time.

And HTLD it is actual witchcraft, but today when I walked into my WS work room she had her Bible out doing her Bible study, so thats at least one good sign. I was panicking but not in front of her, I never lose my cool and I am always calm around her.

Have you asked them for there help and support in saving your marriage?

Have you told them it is because of her adoulterouse relationship with a married man who activly practices witchcraft?

Show them how good you will treat her!

That's fine and dandy, but I would counter with, "then why did she not bring this up before the affair. Why didn't she just leave then. She's using my actions to justify her affair." Yeah, your marriage was struggling because of your past actions, but that is not why she wants a divorce. She wants a divorce to save face.

You don't have to justify anything to them. Just be the best possible husband you can. If there is no OM, there will be no affair. If you don't treat her bad, she has no reason to leave or look for OM. Just keep it up. These things don't turn around overnight. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

I assume by now that you have enough information to prove what you are saying. I mean about the affair, witchcraft and th dirty deeds youe WW and OM have pulled so far.

With that assumition in mind Jon. I ask you guys here who have been counseling Jon so far, With all that info does he really need to hide his source?

I mean, if he prints,emails,or shows/mails the incrimidating evedence to the Aunt, employers,church, wouldn't that clear up a lot for Jon?

One of the things about nueclear exposure jon is that when you have the facts in front of you and you make it clear the ONLY reason you exposed is because you want to get your mariage back, most people totally get it.

I will let the others counsel about this because I still have'nt read thru the whole thread and maybe its allready been discussed.


Still , it seems that some of you and your wifes aquaintences are not clear on the details. It will be in your best interests no matter what to set them straight and printouts showing affiar activitys speak louder than you panicing and desparatly explaining things on the phone with Auntie or whomever.


Yes Gack , I love Gump too. another favorite line.


"I'm not a smart man Jenny, but I know what Love is."

OH Jon BTW, Nobody,Male or Female, weak or strong, leaves a relationship without a backup plan for having another.
Even if there is not an active affair happening now, in her head she is hoping to find love again someday.

Its up to you to give her love right now while not getting walked on and disrespected.
I know what yur thinking.. its a fine line.. we will be here to help.

Talk to Doc H if you can

JP- it is perfectly fine to vent ot us and tell us how mad she made you and how crazy her WW fog babble was. What I was getting upset by was that you seemed to be coming on here and saying you were giving up. There are many of us who have been taking time out of our lives to help you. We believe in MB and DrH. We really think that there is a chance for you to R your M. No Guarantees, but are there any in life anyways.

Don't get me wrong, if you come to a point that you really want to give up, then we will support you in that. I really believe that you tend to react out of emotions instead of intellect. That's why you have to take a deep breath, calm down and remember YOU HAVE A PLAN

Now, I know this has been mentioned many many times but what are her top 3 EN's? Give us your proof as to why you think those are them. If one of her top 3 ENs is NOT DS then all of your cleaning and cooking will not deposit anything into her LB.

Please list the her top 3 EN with proof.

Don't leave your home, period.

It seems to me in a way you want to just make a decision- and that you're leaning towards D because you think it will stop the pain. It won't- maybe a little but you're still going to have to coparent with her if you have children. And you'll still have to get over her.

I'm not clear about whether or not you guys have kids- but don't you want to be able to tell your kids that you did everything you could to work out the marriage.

When she brings up divorce- you say "I talk marriage- I do not talk divorce"

And don't leave your home!

Scotland, her top 3 EN's are in order as follows, Affection, Conversation and Domestic support. We converse now more than we did when we were happily married, we just talk, about movies, the kids, her work (only when she brings work up.) and I look her in the eye and listen when she talks now.

I would USED to "give her advice" instead of listen and tell her she was doing things wrong, and I critisized her, I told her that I hated her glasses when she got them and I told her she is prettier without them etc... I even broke the golden rule of women and mentioned her weight a few times. now I tell her she looks "hot" when appropriate or if she gets something new I will mention how nice it is.
I don't over do the compliments and I only compliment her when I am sincere. As for the domestic support thats a given. Sometimes I do feel like giving up, but it doesn't mean I will.

As for proof of why those are the top 3 EN's #1 reason the OM gave her conversation and affection when I wasn't, he told her she was beautiful ALOT and they would talk for HOURS online. they only met up 2 times and had sex only once so I know it's not recreation or sexual. I can do the conversation ok and the domestic support but affection os SO HARD right now and it's her #1 EN.
I am VERY strong willed and when I set out to do something, I do it. I will keep giving it my best as usual.

Also when I exposed I did not leave out ANY details, they know about the witchcraft and even that he curses and smokes etc... Her mom used to work with the guy and she would always hear him talking about cheating and hurting women etc.... So her mom HATES HIM.
Her aunt is a christian woman also and she told my WS he will never be welcome on her property (which is where our house sits)
I have tried telling her family there would be no D if not for OM but they fall into her trap and believe her lies, I will keep telling them and they don't want us to D I hung out with her family more than she did and they LOVE me.
I was always the center of any party or get together we had and i always had everyone laughing etc... I am very outgoing.

Okay, here is what you do.

1) Keep cleaning and helping out around the house. Keep it up. Don't stop. She may not say anything, but she will recognize it.

2) Talk to your wife. Ignore the WW who talks about divorce. Talk to your wife when she is in a talking mood. Talk about current headlines, celebrity gossip, whatever she is interested in and will engage her.

3) Work up to affection as she lets you. Start slow like touching her arm when you are walking by. Get a feel of what you can and cannot do and back off when she starts having a problem.

Jonpen,

""They are not talking anymore she just gets on there and looks at his pictures, I know it will delay the withdrawl but it's better than them talking.""

Ok, brother, I just had a crazy thought...How about being pro-active and stirring up the pot a little. Contact his wife concerning the facebook pages and ask her to block your wife from his and his wife's facebook pages.

Tell her how she keeps mooning over him on the FB.

If you can do that on facebook pages. I am not familiar with what can and can't be done. But that would put a stop to her pouting from afar, gazing at the pages.

It would help speed up withdrawal and, realizing her true soulmate just blocked her from even viewing him might give her the big hint she needs.

imho

kirk

Krusht, The OM and his wife beat me to it!! they deleted all thier pictures off facebook today! Things keep getting better. My wife keeps trying to talk to me and is being overly nice now. I was wrong about affection it's Admiration and it's probably her #1 EN, i missed it somehow, but my mom found it and when I read it i know it's her #1! any tips on the best ways to meet this EN?

Exactly why I asked you to show proof. I had this funny feeling that you were missing the boat on something. I am glad Mom could help out. As far as how to meet this need, I will let the vets handle that. I am not on my "A" game today.

We just set up talking about doll clothes for our daughter and she was excited about showing me all the different types of clothes and accesories you can get for the dolls, we talked for like 30 mins then she mentioned she got a movie and said "it's a chick flick you won't like it" I said "I do like chick flicks" she said "well I don't know if this one is good but it's got Jude Law in it and he is SO HOT" not sure if she was trying to make me jealous or what...? I said "well I won't lie i've watched movies just because it had hot women in it too so I don't blame you"
I did tell her i appreciated her picking out the clothes for our daughter etc... and I was excited about the cool stuff you can get for the little dolls, you can actually send them off to the "hospital" if it's head comes off or something messes up with it...wiered.
Why is she being so overly nice today when just last night she was the most hateful and evil woman i have ever seen.

Vets I need some tips on how to REALLY meet her EN of admiration because it's certainly her #1.

Oh I also forgot to mention she got this lotion stuff for us because I have dry skin, she said "it's not a gift but I just thought since we both have dry skin this would help, and I picked a non girly smelling one so you can use it to" I don't know why she HAD to point out it's not a gift.
I said "I know it's not a gift I wouldn't expect you to get me a gift" but I did thank her for it and told her I appreciated it.

You have an "in" to put it on her now

She may turn you down, but at least you put it out there.

As far as what to do with admiration, you should try to talk her up to someone else while she is within earshot. Like you said though, don't overdo it or it will come off as fake. Make it also be things you would actually do or say because you are showing her what you intend to do in the future. Maybe even send her a text or an email telling her how HOTT she is. Keep up the GREAT work and don't let her foggy babble D talk EVER get to you and make you give up.

Jonpen, the root of the word "admiration" is "admire." This means that your W wants to be admired. If she's brainy, admire her intelligence. If she's attractive, admire her looks. If she's deft, admire her nimbleness...

Some examples: You picked out doll clothes for your daughter. Say to her, "I really think you have a good eye for color coordination, the way you matched up those clothes." She bought lotion for both of you, tell her, "That was very thoughtful of you to think of getting something for our dry skin." Admiration is a close cousin of flattery, except it doesn't have the baggage or payback associated with flattery.

Some other examples, NOT using your experiences today: "That was really cool the way you arranged those flowers in the centerpiece. I would never have thought of doing that." "You did a great job sorting and filing the bills. It makes them a lot easier to find." "You make the absolute best chocolate-chip cookies! The Girl Scouts should be nervous with you around!"

Do you get the idea? It's not flattery. It's commenting on her strengths, the things she's good at, the things she's proud of!

Appreciation for maybe things you never complimented her on before will be hard to pull off and not seem fake but look around and I am sure you will see stuff you are thankful for.

I told you that you aren't getting divorced. Just believe it and continue plan A. You don't know how lucky you are.

It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again... (I watched Silence of the Lambs last night)

Why is she being overly nice? also she cleaned our son's room and I told her I appreciated her doing that and that it looked really nice. she said "no problem" and that was it
Personally, I think she is being nice to try to get me to go along with the D.

Don't try to figure out why she's being so nice right now. I suspect her emotions are all over the place because she's still in withdrawal. But DO take advantage of her weakened state by meeting her EN's.

As far as admiration goes: I personally don't need a lot of high fives for simple things that I do, like washing dishes, clothes, arranging flowers, etc, although that's nice to hear. What I DO really like is hearing H making admiring comments about me to others. Try that in addition to what you're doing now.

Guilt, confusion about your actions, and an attempt at reciprocating. But don't worry Jon, she will flop back to mean and resentful in a few days, then flop back to kind and nice. There is a reason this whole thing is called a roller coaster ride, it goes up and down.

The good news is the longer into withdrawal and NC you go, the farther apart and less severe the "Mean/Resentful" stages are, until you realize one day there aren't anymore.

The bad news is you are very early into this. Withdrawal will take anywhere from 3 months to 2yrs, and recovery cant really begin until withdrawal is over, then recovery takes 1 to 5yrs.

This is a long ride Jon, not a quick sprint.

Perhaps, but she is not going to follow through.
There will be no D Jon, she will not file.


Jon, did you read the "Carrot and Stick of Plan-A" thread I linked you to?

Have you read any of Dr. Harleys articles on affairs?

How about the book "Surviving an affair"?


One other thing, fill out you sig line with a few basic details. It helps new people understand you, situation better.

Gack, i did read the carrot and the stick of plan A. I also read alot of DR.H's articles, I have not yet read the surviving an affair book but I plan to get it next time I'm out. I tried the Sig thing and it keeps giving me an error for some reason, I will keep trying to update that though.
Ok, about Valentine's day coming up.... I know I probably shouldn't get her anything but in order to show admiration for the things she is doing I could pay for her a spa visit and say "I know were not getting each other anything for V day but I figured since you have been working so hard and are very stressed right now you could use a spa visit". what do you all think?

What do you normally get her for V-day?

Usually, a card, some roses and candy you know the typical V day stuff

I probably would not go over the top this year. But a little extra would not hurt.

Does your W know what Feb-15 is?

Feb 14th is V day whats Feb 15th?

Hey guys and gals, just giving you the latest update on my alien infested WS
Today she has been in a REALLY good mood, Today she was on the internet searching for Taurus and Pisces love compatibility etc... Good news is I'm a Pisces and before she was always searching for Sagitarius which is the OM she hasn't pulled up his facebook page in awhile since he removed all his pictures.

I was in our bedroom watching tv when she went into our bathroom to take a shower, when she got out she came into the bedroom only wearing a towel, then she went back into the bathroom (which is in our bedroom where I was) and left the door cracked just enough to where I could see in and removed her towel. then she put her underwear on and came out to put her pants on. this may be nothing but it was kind of like she was flaunting herself to me.

She also bought a new outfit and when she put it on and was leaving i said "Wow you look so sexy, i love that outfit on you" instead of brushing it off like normal she blushed and said "oh, thanks"

She went out to get a haircut with one of her friends and called me while she was out, she was VERY outgoing and cheerful and said i just wanted to check in with you and see how things are going, then she gave me the daitls of where she was and she said "I thought it may cross your mind that i was out with someone else so you can talk with my friend (which i know her friend really well) I said "no of course not, It didn't even cross my mind" which of course I was thinking that the whole time.

She has been very nice and happy after she talked to my mom, which it was the first time they talked since all this happened, and it was a big emotional conversation because her and my mom are very close.

now i'm not getting my hopes up but I think if she TRULY wanted the D she wouldn't call in to confirm her whereabouts, or being looking up our love compatibility, which good news is...according to the Horoscope nonsense we are VERY compatible what do you vets think about all this?

She's not going to file...she's not going to file...she's not going to file.

Just be confident and know that your plan A is working. A few more months of this and you might get somewhere, but you got quit overanalyzing everything or you will drive yourself crazy. There will be highs, there will be lows. You just have to learn and accept that. Keep working to make your positive changes permanent. Don't slip back to your old ways of treating her. If you don't and you don't drive yourself crazy with the day-to-day rollercoaster of recovery, then I think you'll be fine.

Trust us.

Hi Jon,

I'm glad that you are getting a break from the drama. Your WW's behavior seems encouraging. Stay guarded.

During my WW's withdrawal I kept repeating myself: "don't get too high on the highs and don't get too low on the lows". You may want to look at it that way to avoid expectations in any direction.

Keep up with your plan A. 100% giver without expecting anything from WW in return. Just expect your own improvement.

--ElCamino72

Why did you lie to her? A strong marriage is not built on a foundation of lies, it is built on honesty. Honesty that is easy does not count for much but honesty when it's difficult to be honest counts for a lot.

She KNEW you were worried. You lied about it, and ignored the elephant under the rug, which pretty much gives her permission to ignore it too.

Next time tell her: You have no idea how much I appreciate this gesture. Thank you. Have fun with your friends!

No, I meant it didn't cross my mind that she was with someone else. I knew she was with her friend. I can see how you misunderstood that

But that's not what you posted. You posted she said "I thought it may cross your mind that i was out with someone else so you can talk with my friend (which i know her friend really well) I said "no of course not, It didn't even cross my mind" which of course I was thinking that the whole time. And it's okay to think the white lie you told her is understandable. It is, because you're not used to being completely open & honest. Wait until you see how freeing it is to be able to honestly tell her everything you're thinking.

Lol, I've caused a contraversy now when I said "which of course I was thinking that the whole time" I meant I was thinking she was with her friend not the OM.
I wouldn't lie to you all. I KNOW she wasn't with the OM and I really didn't think that she was. If I had any assumptions or reason to believe she was with him I would have told her.
She called me again and is saying stuff like "your not mad that I went out are you"? and "if you want me to come home I will" etc... What is going on with her?

Somewhere here the is a thread called "The art of war"

Its a very explicit example of how to fight the enemy. You guys are in a battle for your marriage and you should not stop fighting for it after the emergency is over, if it gets over.

Many false recoverys happen because ppl don't continue with building the marraige foundation after the initial "pain" stops. They get so scared to mess anything up, they stop working on the reasons they had a problem in the first place.
Lets all be honest, if we were still in love with our spouses and them with us and there were no problem we wouldn't be here. Something happened to mess it up, its different for all of us but we lose the original "in love and everything will be alright" feelings and we lack the tools to maintain the emotional bond we crave.

Recovery is hard, we must face our failures as well as our spouses and forgive and forget. That takes repentence, a demonstrated result of change and time to heal. Trust needs to be earned again and the secure feeling we had prior to the affair is absent untill enough time goes by with absolute complete transparancy with each other.

The MB principles work. They are based on what it takes to have a healthy marriage, not nessesarily personal growth because you can both enthusiastically agree and trust each other EVEN IF, you are doing something stupid and childish together. The point is you are doing it together. The point here is that even if two ppl are as dumb as a post they can grow up together. I was married 24 years and thetough things we went through together with honesty were really tough but when we were dedicated to honesty and truth we made it thru some really bad stuff. As soon as lies and deception crept in, we were sunk, we had to work on what we had, and we were never perfect. Many times we acted like we were suppossed to even if we didn't feel like it and then later examined why we didn't feel like it. We had to get over betrayal on many levels including adultry and it took time to get back from that awful place.

Guess what I am saying is now is the beginning of what can be the best marriage you would ever experiance but as soon as you stop the constant care of each other and assume you are ok, something can sneak in so be ready for a fight with fear and insecurity and don't let anything get in the way of useing the tools found here in MB. I wish we had found this place years ago and you knowwhat? Many of the principles we used to recover when we did are the same ones I see here in MB. If we had support like this our time together would have lasted longer and would have been healthier.

Make no mistake, its a fight to the finish for a prize that gets more precious after every battle

Her friend she went out with last night said that she could tell my WS was happy and wasn't in the same depressed state she's normally in. She did say that she brought up the D a few times but never actually talked about it. The only things she said were "I'm so stressed still because of my job and I haven't even got an attorney for the D" and then she said "I never would have thought I would be in this position, I cheated on my husband and now I'm getting a D, I wish I could go back 10 years eralier and be a kid again."

I called her friend last night when my WS wasn't with her and talked for awhile with her, thats how i know my WS said these things. She seems to think she still probably won't file. Plan A continues....

WW should not be out bar hopping morning noon or night.

Being a bar fly and a wife do not mix.

Gee, where have I heard that before?

Props to Gack!

Whatever, I said it first.