Marriage Builders
Posted By: DazedInAus Recovery Setback - 01/28/10 10:53 PM
Hi all, I'm new to MB so I guess I should give you a little background (I tend to get overly wordy so I'm trying to keep it to bare bones). FWH had an EA that started end 3/09, turned into PA 4/09. He moved out, after telling me he "loved me but was no longer in love with me and wanted to try and sort out how he felt" on 20/11/09. We started having once a week "date nights" and MC on 14/12/09. D-Day was 10/01/10, NC on 11/01/10. D-Day was before I had found MB, and I did pretty much everything 'wrong' when I found out, but it worked out anyway. He moved back home officially on 25/01/10 and things have been going ok, he's working on H&O and being transparent for me, and I'm working on my big LB's, Demands and Lack of Affection.

Yesterday was a really rough day for me, my 17 1/2 year old dog, that I watched being born and who was my first baby, had to be put to sleep, so I was very emotional and over-wrought. He was so supportive and strong for me, and I appreciated it so much. With working on his H&O, we have an agreement that he will be truthful with me regarding any details of the A, and I will consider my questions and not ask something I don't want to know. Unfortunately, in my haze last night, just before we went to bed, I opened my mouth and asked a question I knew I didn't want the answer to at that time, and he, of course, answered it honestly.

Bit more background, my FWH works hard, he's a contractor, so no work means no pay, so he rarely takes time off. The one time of year he is forced to is the Christmas break, where the entire office closes for a week, so he had a week off over Christmas. Of course he was not living at home last year, but I had asked him if our kids would be seeing him over the break (DD7 and DD4, who worship their Daddy). He'd told me he would see them, and did see them on Christmas Day and for a little while on Boxing Day when he picked us up from my Sister's place to take us home (we see my Dad/Step-Mum that day and he said he "couldn't face my Dad" so chose not to attend, and he took the car when he moved out so I'd taken it with me on Christmas night while he rode his bike back to the place he was staying near my Sis's place, then he came on Boxing Day to pick us up, took us home then went back to his place.) That was the last I heard of him for almost a week. No phone calls, no visits, not even an SMS. I was really hurt for both myself and my girl's sake. They love their Daddy so much and just want to be with him as much as possible, and they didn't see him almost his entire only week off all year.

So, somehow the subject of that week came up while we were talking before bed last night, and without thinking, the words "did you see HER that week?" came out of my mouth. I KNEW it was a mistake and I didn't want to know just then, but he, of course, answered me that he'd seen her once. I proceeded to try and sleep, but I was curled up with my back to him, crying. He started rubbing my back and telling me he was sorry, but all I did was snap at him that sorry didn't make it better. I knew I'd only get worse if I stayed in the room, so I explained to him that I had to get out of there and went and sat outside for awhile. I was so angry and hurt, I just couldn't go back in there, so I ended up sleeping in the spare room.

He keeps his work clothes for the morning in there, so he doesn't wake me up getting ready for work at 5.00am, so he obviously came in while I was asleep. I woke up just before 6am and he'd left me a note and my glasses (which I'd left in our bedroom) apologising again and being very romantic, but I'm still so hurt and angry that this THING was more important to him than his wife and children, I can't seem to see past that right now and I'm positive I'm still not capable of having a calm, rational discussion with him about it. I can't just pretend it didn't happen, I can't be calm about it. I'm at a complete loss as to how to cope with this. I've asked for other details of the A, and while hurt, have accepted them pretty calmly on the whole. Ashamed to admit there has been some LB'ing with some DJ's. I'm trying to keep them under control, but the OW makes me physically sick. Not only is she obviously ugly on the inside for going into this knowing well he was married with 2 children, but she's also the complete opposite of me in every way, with extremely unhealthy interests and kinks that make me want to throw up.

I'm hoping you all can give me some suggestions or point me to some coping mechanisms so I can get this cat under control, if not back in the bag, and continue moving forward and concentrating on the important things, my FWH and children. I know I really have only given you the bare basics of information, I'm trying not to turn this into a journal entry, even now it's huge, so if further explanation is needed, am happy to give it.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Recovery Setback - 01/29/10 02:20 AM
Hi Dazed. Welcome to MB.

I'm not surprised that you are still reeling from this affair. As I understand it, your H moved out without telling you about the affair in November. He started dating you while still seeing OW. You must have had at least a couple of sessions of MC before you found out about the affair in January. That was a particularly dishonest way for your H to behave.

How did you find out? Did his MC encourage him to confess?

So, you found out about the affair, and he moved home two weeks after D Day. He has been home only since Monday, so you are very early on in recovery.

I'm curious about how you know so much about the Harley concepts. You mention O&H and transparency, and LBs. Did your MC teach you these, or refer you to the Harley materials?

How was NC achieved? Did your H write a letter, and did you send it? Has there been any attempt at contact since it was sent?

This affair was about nine months long, from what I can tell. That is time enough for his feelings to become deep. Your H must have been very deeply involved to have moved out and left you and two young children. Why and how did he and OW break up?

I think you might be posting in this forum prematurely. I suspect that there might be a few loose ends to tie up around this affair, such as notifying OWH if there is one. How did your H meet her? If through work, then this must be dealt with. If you live in the same neighbourhood, then so must that.

You will get more responses if you ask the moderators to move this thread to the forum Surviving an Affair. Click notify to do that.
Posted By: Breezemb Re: Recovery Setback - 01/29/10 02:33 AM
Moved at thread starters request.

Best of Luck. smile
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Recovery Setback - 01/29/10 03:12 AM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Hi Dazed. Welcome to MB.

I'm not surprised that you are still reeling from this affair. As I understand it, your H moved out without telling you about the affair in November. He started dating you while still seeing OW. You must have had at least a couple of sessions of MC before you found out about the affair in January. That was a particularly dishonest way for your H to behave.

It was a very dishonest way for him to behave. Due to Christmas and then our MC being ill, we only had one session before I found out.


How did you find out? Did his MC encourage him to confess?

I discovered it by accident via FB, she was on his FB friends list, which I was checking out, with a photo of the two of them cuddling as her profile picture, so I investigated and found her myspace and another online profile talking about her "wonderful boyfriend" with lots of pics of the two of them. He confessed when I confronted him.

So, you found out about the affair, and he moved home two weeks after D Day. He has been home only since Monday, so you are very early on in recovery.

I'm curious about how you know so much about the Harley concepts. You mention O&H and transparency, and LBs. Did your MC teach you these, or refer you to the Harley materials?

I was desperately searching online, at first just for ways we could solve the issues in the marriage that caused him to move out(I DO believe the moving out was a seperate issue to the A), then obviously for how to deal myself with the pain and anger, and if it was possible to move past it. I found MB a couple of weeks ago and have spent alot of time reading. Being a SAHM has at least given me plenty of time to do that.

How was NC achieved? Did your H write a letter, and did you send it? Has there been any attempt at contact since it was sent?

He phoned her in front of me and told her it was over, he wouldn't be seeing her ever again, to delete anything relating to him, including all photo's online, his number and msn address etc and that as far as he was concerned she didn't exist and she should do the same for him. He said he would change his phone number (but hasn't yet) and has blocked her on his msn as well as getting a new msn address (but also hasn't yet, but apparently will be today). As far as I can tell (I have been snooping to keep an eye on it) there has been no attempt at contact.

This affair was about nine months long, from what I can tell. That is time enough for his feelings to become deep. Your H must have been very deeply involved to have moved out and left you and two young children. Why and how did he and OW break up?

I felt the same way about the length of time and of course assumed it must have been pretty meaningful, but due to the ease and speed with which he broke it off, the fact he's done almost everything I've requested right away and that he hasn't shown any evidence of withdrawl that I have seen, coupled with the information he's told me when I've asked questions, it seems that the length of time isn't a strong indication of how deep and meaningful it was. When I found out, I told him that I would not stay with him if it continued (here's where I LB'd big time), I demanded her or me and that I wouldn't continue to work on the marriage if he chose to stay with her. He instantly agreed and broke it off the next night when I could be there to witness it, since I felt I needed to KNOW it had been done and any other way felt too slow for me at that time.

I think you might be posting in this forum prematurely. I suspect that there might be a few loose ends to tie up around this affair, such as notifying OWH if there is one. How did your H meet her? If through work, then this must be dealt with. If you live in the same neighbourhood, then so must that.

I have done as you suggested and requested it be moved. There is no OWH to notify, because she's not even old enough to be married! She's not yet 18, 12 years younger than WH, and 15 years younger than me! They met in a piercing shop in the city while he was on his lunchbreak, got talking, exchanged email/msn addresses and apparently, it didn't take long for the innuendo and inappropriate conversations to start, but because she was in High School at the time, he says he actually didn't see her very much, it was mostly contact via msn/email/mobile phone. She wasn't allowed to contact him when he was at home, and I certainly never saw any indications that she did, and she met him a couple of times after work, caught the train with him and they split up at his stop while she continued on her way. I know how much time he was spending at home, so I can account for the majority of his time outside of work, and alot of his workmates are friends of mine so if he had been spending alot of time with her during work hours, I probably would have found out. I understand what I did to create an atmosphere that tempted him. I was far from a great wife in the months before it started or during it, obviously that doesn't in any way justify his way of dealing with that, nothing can justify his behaviour, but I do understand the circumstances that led to his actions and I know that most of all, he was looking for the affection and appreciation that were completely lacking from me, which are huge EN's for him. I'm unsure at this point how to deal with the work issue. He has a really good job and it would be almost impossible for him to find something else as good, both financially and satisfaction wise, and leaving his current job wouldn't be too useful, as most likely anything else he got would still be city based, and hence nothing would have changed, since he didn't actually meet her at work but on his lunchbreak in a city store. He's been taking very short lunch breaks and notifying me of where he's going when he leaves, and when he gets back to his desk, to try and help with my comfort, and I can call him at any time to check where he is.

I believe he does love me deeply, he's truly regretful and ashamed of his actions and is trying really hard to make up for them and work on us, he's read a bit of MB, but I know he doesn't get alot of free time to sit in front of a computer and read. We're trying to get ahold of some of the MB books, but bookstores here don't have them in stock so we have to wait to get them delivered. I'm going to stop for now, this is turning novel length! Thank you for taking the time to respond to me Sugercane, I really appreciate all the assistance I can get right now.


You will get more responses if you ask the moderators to move this thread to the forum Surviving an Affair. Click notify to do that.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Recovery Setback - 01/29/10 02:03 PM
There are a few things that bother me about this. The main one is that your H was willing to go to MC with you and deceive you back into a relationship with him. He did not even confess as a result of the MC's influence; you found out about the affair via Facebook. I don't think much of your H's honesty and I would be surprised if this relationship has been completely terminated.

Does your MC know of the affair now? If he/she is now aware that deceit took place in the very consulting room, he should be treating you (not him) as someone who is at risk from a class-A user. Is he working to protect you now?

Do not take comfort from the fact that your H broke off the affair right away and has shown no signs of withdrawal. For my H, those exact things meant that the affair had not been terminated, there was daily contact via work (eventually leading to sexual contact again) and so there was no need for withdrawal. OW simply upped the ego-stroking tactics, I went into reclaiming what was mine mode, and my H basked in the love of two of us fighting for him, rather than having one who was fighting (OW) and one who was unaware (me).

I probably have more I could say but I cannot stay now. I'm sure others will make more suggestions.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Recovery Setback - 01/30/10 03:37 AM
You've given me alot to think about and sort through Sugarcane.

As far the MC goes, we've still only had two sessions with him, the first one was about 2 weeks before D-Day and, not surprisingly, I walked out feeling like it was useless (I obviously know now that it couldn't have been anything but, with WH's deceit and lies still going on, he was totally closed to what we were really there for). Second session WH told MC about the A and it was a very emotional session, but I don't think we'll be going back there. Both myself and WH just can't really seem to connect to the MC in any real way. He's a very nice, intellectual man and he has a real tendency to say things we don't understand and then not really explain when we ask questions or for clarification. He sent us home from that session with "homework", and I honestly couldn't tell you what it actually is, because he didn't make any real sense to me. He was quite brutal in his words to WH, which, while not underserved, actually got WH angry for the first time in about 5 years (WH NEVER loses his temper), which I don't think is a good environment to help us work through anything. WH defensive and both of us confused by what he's trying to convey. He's a govt sponsered MC so our main problem is that we can't afford to go elsewhere atm.

Trust for us is obviously a thing of the past right now, but I do feel fairly confident that it's over, though I'm doing what I can to ensure that. I exposed to almost everyone as soon as I found out, all our friends and his family. Only people I haven't told are my parents, because I don't want them to know. WH himself told the workmate he'd been living with the morning after D-Day, and she was very angry with him, although she hasn't told anyone else at work, there are a couple of people I'm considering telling, but I'm unsure if that's a good idea or not.

He has appeared to be truly remorseful this week, in my eyes at least. He can't say sorry enough, he's constantly asking what he can do for me to help me feel more secure, he's taken every bit of my anger and bitterness, held and supported me through a few panic attacks, tried to make sure I knew where he was every minute at work and called me on his way home so I knew he was alone, and spent every minute he wasn't at work with me (and those things were on his own initiative, I didn't ask for them). I told him he could keep his mobile number, as long as I had access to the bills, but he's chosen to change numbers anyway, and still make sure I have access to the bills (the bills were emailed to his address so I rarely saw them, they're now being sent to my email address). Given me all passwords to his accounts, and he's given me access to his work account, although it'd be easy enough for him to have a pre-paid mobile, and delete emails before I see them or get a new free account, I don't think he has.

My H tends towards 'the path of least resistance'. He allowed himself to fall into the A, and it would seem, he stayed in it because it was easier to continue to hurt me without me knowing, than it was to break it off and hurt her. Alot of their contact was on her initiative, now of course he's going to tell me that, it makes him look less 'bad', but what I know of his basic personality leads me to believe he's being fairly truthful on that. I KNEW, for months before I found out, that he was having an A. Not in a "I have proof" kind of way, but my instincts, my gut, were screaming it at me. I asked him over and over and I knew deep down he was lying to me. Why I didn't snoop, I don't know. I guess I was in denial and if I didn't find proof, it wouldn't be true, but I did know, so I'm going to go with my instincts on this, because they've proved more trustworthy than H is, and they tell me it IS over, but that doesn't mean I'm going to blindly follow them, I'm just not sure what more I can do to make sure of that, when he's at work from 7am to 5pm every day, plus time on the train. Any suggestions anyone has would be greatly accepted.

Oh wow, I've typed another novel, sorry about that! It's really good having someone asking me these things Sugarcane, because it's making me think and not just blindly accept what he's saying and doing. I guess it seems strange that after all he's put me through, all his actions and lies and deceit, I can still seem to have faith in him. He's said he wanted to tell me so many times, but just didn't know how to say it. In his words "after I've said No, No, No so many times, how do I say I've been lying to you", so basically he didn't tell me because he was so ashamed (as he should be!). His head was a mess, I know that much, and he really wasn't thinking at all, about the consequences of his actions, about what he was risking, about anything. One thing I've never doubted for a second is how much he loves his children, and what they mean to him. The fact that his OW was a 17 year old s**t who not only didn't want children, but actively disliked them, strangely makes me feel more reassured that it wasn't as meaningful or important to him as I feared it was. D-Day was a huge shock of reality into his little dream world, and for the first time, I think it all came home to him what he was actually risking. Since then he's spoken alot of not understanding why he did it, or why it went on so long. All he can say is that he was a stupid idiot who made stupid choices (all true). Both our communication skills were pretty useless, and stupid as it is, out of fear of losing me if he told me how he felt, he went elsewhere. The complete craziness of that thought process astounds me, but it makes twisted sense based on the H I knew before all of this. I've told him myself that I'm well aware I put the door in front of him. Nothing forced him to open that door except his own lousy decisions, but I did put the door there in the first place with my own bad decisions.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Recovery Setback - 01/30/10 10:01 AM
Dazed,

It's unfortunate that we are on opposite sides of the world (I'm in London) and we post at opposite ends of the day. It makes it hard to maintain a dialogue.

I'm in a rush now, but the ONE group you have not exposed to and need to is OW parents.

She's 17?? Did I hear you correctly?

My daughter is 20. She is away at university. I am 5'2" and she is about 5"7", and if I heard that she was interfering in another woman's marriage I would drag her out of one of her lectures and horsewhip her in front of her friends.

Expose to this child's parents - sensitively, of course.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Recovery Setback - 01/30/10 12:37 PM
Novel's are not bad.

Not enough paragraphs is bad.

We don't care about gramatical placement of paragraphs. The extra spacing makes it easier to read.

As to MC. So your WH gets yeld at. He danced now he has to pay the band. As to not understanding MC tell him he makes no sense, please explain. Then complain to your health provider an ask for another MC.
Posted By: serendipitous Re: Recovery Setback - 01/30/10 12:58 PM
I am sorry you have need to be here Dazed, but having said that you will find the help and support here invaluable.

You sound like you are both heading in the right direction but and this is a big but, your H should not be considered a FWH yet. He has much to do to earn the F so please keep your eyes wide open. Pay little attention to what he says and much more to what he does.

I agree with SugarCane. Exposure is such a valuable tool and you haven't used it as best you can. The OW is a child and hopefully she has decent parents who will be able to talk some sense in to her and will be able to teach her that self respect means never sleeping with a married man. Expose to her parents and then hopefully you'll have two sets of eyes on them to check for any breaks in NC.

As an aside, this had me worried....

Originally Posted by Dazed
WH himself told the workmate he'd been living with the morning after D-Day, and she was very angry with him, although she hasn't told anyone else at work, there are a couple of people I'm considering telling, but I'm unsure if that's a good idea or not.
Emphasis mine.

I am concerned that your H was living with another woman while separated from you? What did you think of this? What has your H said of this relationship?

Keep reading here. There is much to learn and you will be so thankful when you implement the things you learn into your M. I wish you well in your recovery but please keep yout guard up for now. It's very early days.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Recovery Setback - 01/30/10 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by serendipitous
I am sorry you have need to be here Dazed, but having said that you will find the help and support here invaluable.

You sound like you are both heading in the right direction but and this is a big but, your H should not be considered a FWH yet. He has much to do to earn the F so please keep your eyes wide open. Pay little attention to what he says and much more to what he does.

I agree with SugarCane. Exposure is such a valuable tool and you haven't used it as best you can. The OW is a child and hopefully she has decent parents who will be able to talk some sense in to her and will be able to teach her that self respect means never sleeping with a married man. Expose to her parents and then hopefully you'll have two sets of eyes on them to check for any breaks in NC.

As an aside, this had me worried....

Originally Posted by Dazed
WH himself told the workmate he'd been living with the morning after D-Day, and she was very angry with him, although she hasn't told anyone else at work, there are a couple of people I'm considering telling, but I'm unsure if that's a good idea or not.
Emphasis mine.

I am concerned that your H was living with another woman while separated from you? What did you think of this? What has your H said of this relationship?

Keep reading here. There is much to learn and you will be so thankful when you implement the things you learn into your M. I wish you well in your recovery but please keep yout guard up for now. It's very early days.

Very quick for now as I'm about to head off to bed. WH was staying with his female workmate and her fiance, I would have had huge issues if he'd been staying with a single female workmate. Her fiance living there is no guarantee, but then, nothing is, is it?

I'd like to expose to OW's parents, but I'm concerned firstly about how I could get in touch with them. I know her name and what general area she lives in, but not anything more specific than that, and I doubt WH will give me more info at this time. Not to mention the fact that these are parents who have allowed their under 18 child to get 18 body piercings so far, not to mention they knew about my WH (not that he was married, he doesn't THINK) but at least that he was significantly older than her. She's only 10 years older than my eldest daughter! If she tries to bring home an almost 30 year old man at 17, I'll be locking her in her room until SHE'S 30!!!

Any thoughts on this? Any suggestions for getting contact details for them? I'm wracking my brains and haven't gotten anywhere yet.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Recovery Setback - 01/30/10 03:11 PM
Do you know the surname?

Do you have an online electoral register in Australia?

Online phone book?

Just online? I only had OW's first and surname - and she lives in Belgium. I googled and within 5 minutes found her.

Her first and surname are very common for her country of origin. There were hundreds of women living in expat communities all over the world with her names, including a few in Belgium. However, only one of them was connected to my H's job, about which there was a document online. It had to be her (and was). Try it.

Later on, I found her in the Belgian online phone book.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Recovery Setback - 01/30/10 03:24 PM
Dazed, what is the age of consent in OZ? Is there any chance this is statutory rape? Can your H be sure that the girl is 17?

For you, I suggest checking his computer for teen pics. It is a very nasty thing to suggest, but he might have an interest in young girls.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Recovery Setback - 01/30/10 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Do you know the surname?

Do you have an online electoral register in Australia?

Online phone book?

Just online? I only had OW's first and surname - and she lives in Belgium. I googled and within 5 minutes found her.

Her first and surname are very common for her country of origin. There were hundreds of women living in expat communities all over the world with her names, including a few in Belgium. However, only one of them was connected to my H's job, about which there was a document online. It had to be her (and was). Try it.

Later on, I found her in the Belgian online phone book.

I'll give her surname a look in the online phone book for sure, but yeah, it's a fairly common last name, and since I don't know her parents names or the exact suburb they live in, I'm not sure how successful I'll be. She's under 18, so she's not currently old enough to vote, although she turns 18 near the end of February, she's not required to register and that's still a month away. If I have no luck, I can look then. My nephew is a year older than her (and doesn't that make me sick also) and grew up/went to school in the same area, so if I got desperate I could possibly enlist his help, since she goes to the gym at the University my nephew attends, but I'd really rather not drag the poor kid into it if I can help it.

I really should go to bed now, but wanted to thank everyone for their help and support, it really means alot to me atm.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Recovery Setback - 01/30/10 03:39 PM
Sleep well, and I hope there will be an abundance of advice when you come back.

I found OW's daughter's name on a very old web page (about 8 years old) that her H had created about his family and made visible to the world.

I googled the daughter, and to my horror found that she was at a British university. The reason for my H once visiting a very odd British town fell into place; he visited OW when she was in England seeing her daughter.

The document from the university was a discussion group thread. The girl was studying a particular subject and the students set up a thread to discuss their assignments, and they left it visible.

This girl might have an open FB page, or might even be mentioned in the local paper for starring in a school production. You just don't know what you'll find: google!
Posted By: serendipitous Re: Recovery Setback - 01/30/10 06:30 PM
Have a good nights sleep Dazed. It's so good if you can. I know that I barely slept for weeks after D-Day and looking back I really do not know how I continued to function. sigh

Going back to your first post, you mentioned asking questions and then being unprepared for the horrible answers.

It hurts so bad doesn't it? The first few hours after I found out it was impossible for any answers to hurt me more than I was already hurting so I asked away.

After that it was more difficult because you get yourself on what you think is an even keel and then a question pops into your head so you ask it and before you know it you're back to square one, feeling like the person you love most has stamped on you. It's horrible and I so feel for all BS's going through this process.

A process is what it is though. Most of us BS's need to know everything. I certainly did, so to prevent me going off the deep end, I would shelve the questions that popped into my head. I would then ask my H if he would be willing to discuss the A at say 7.30 that night or the night after.

I would then work out what questions I wanted to ask and then would work through his potential answers in my head. I would take myself to the worst possible answers and visualise my H giving me those answers.

More often than not when we got to the time when I could ask the questions, his answers to my questions were not half as bad as the ones I had worked through in my head so I could hear him wothout LB'ing. The lack of LB'ing on my part encouraged him to be O&H with me and we were able to work through this part of R relatively quickly.

I'm not saying this would work for everyone as I took myself to some pretty bad places that I needn't really have gone to but it did help me keep mine and my FWH's dialogue safe and that most definitely helped our recovery.

You still both have a lot to work through and your H certainly has a problem with O&H so this is something that you both need to do some serious work on. Him being safe to be O&H is the work you can do from your side but he needs to understand how important O&H is in the recovery process because it is so important that everything comes out now or it will certainly bite you on the bum later.

Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Recovery Setback - 01/31/10 02:55 AM
Thank you Sere. Sleep was def a rare commodity for me for the week after D-Day, thankfully since then it hasn't been too bad. I'm still staying up too late and having alot of nightmares, but at least I'm getting some. My girls go back to school tomorrow after their Summer break, so I've been working on everything I can think of to get some more sleep for myself, as they need me to be at least semi mentally awake, not to mention having to face the ravenous horde of school Mum's. Some of them are fantastic and have been amazingly supportive of me through both the seperation and then the D-Day fallout, but some of them tend toward the horrid gossip monger stereotype and I know it's going to be hard to face them with my head held high, so I'm trying to prep myself for that also.

Having MB to come to and speak to other ppl who know exactly what I'm going through, has been such a blessing. It really helps reaffirm my belief that I have nothing to be ashamed of, that I didn't do anything wrong THEY did, and that I'm not an idiot or a fool for being willing to take WH back and work on our marriage.

Your advice for question asking seems really good. I'm already having those thoughts in my head, and have found that asking questions when I'm calm and rational has led to answers that were nowhere near as bad as I expected them to be. He's said quite a few times that he hates answering because he KNOWS they hurt me, but he knows he has to answer because right now, its all about what I need, and if I'm asking, I obviously feel the need to know. He definately seems to be trying with his H&O. He's never been good at talking about how he feels, but this morning he talked about his regrets, that it ever happened, that he can never take it back, that he caused me so much pain, almost lost the most important things in his life. It felt good to hear him talking that way, just the fact that he was being open with me in a way he hasn't in a very long time. Seeing him in pain is hard, but seeing that he seems to really 'get it' helps so much. One day at a time for now, but I have hope.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Recovery Setback - 01/31/10 03:16 AM
Sugar, the first thing I did when I found her friended on his FB, was start googling! I then found her MS, and used her 'internet nickname' from that to also google, and found another online profile of hers from that. Her real name hasn't brought up anything except her MS page. WH deleted his FB page the day after D-Day (I check every day to make sure it's gone and also look under all his online aliases), and she deleted hers a few days later. I have been checking, but can't find anything else.

I also checked his computer right after he moved out, since I had that gut feeling, but found absolutely nothing. I didn't really expect to, our computers and screens are literally right next to each other (about an inch between them) on the same desk, and apart from in the morning before work, I was always right next to him when he was on the comp at home.

I also did research on our age of consent laws when I found out her age, as I was under the impression my state had laws regarding difference in age if someone was under 18 but over 16 (our age of consent), however those laws have either been removed or I was under a mistaken impression in the first place, as there was absolutely nothing beyond the 16 year old requirement, which she met, unless the older person is in a 'position of power' meaning boss, teacher, something along those lines, which I couldn't find any arguement to make that he was.

I shall keep googling, I still check her MS and other online profile every day to snoop and see if there's any obvious changes that may signal breaking of N/C, unfortunately I was stupid enough to let it out that I knew about them, so they're friends locked now, and somehow I suspect she wouldn't accept me as a friend. I suspect she hates me rather alot about now. I say good, the feeling's mutual smile

I don't think WH even thought about her age really. Just that she represented fun and freedom and no responsibility at a time when he was under huge amounts of stress and expectations and responsibility at home and work. She represented everything he was missing out on, and I think she was at the right place at the right time and saw the vulnerability and jumped on it. She could have been 27 or 57 rather than 17, if she'd had the same things to offer, he still would have done it, it was about what she was (single, no kids, irresponsible) more than who she was, if you get what I mean?
Posted By: serendipitous Re: Recovery Setback - 01/31/10 10:59 AM
Originally Posted by DazedInAus
...having to face the ravenous horde of school Mum's. Some of them are fantastic and have been amazingly supportive of me through both the seperation and then the D-Day fallout, but some of them tend toward the horrid gossip monger stereotype and I know it's going to be hard to face them with my head held high, so I'm trying to prep myself for that also.

Due to the total nuclear exposure I did, everyone, and I mean everyone we knew, knew of my FWH's A. I remember all too well fearing leaving the house, or seeing friends and family. I hated the thought of people feeling sorry for me, or gossiping about my M.

I did go out though and I carried my life on as best I could. I held my head high even when I felt I was crumbling inside. I remained dignified at all times and I never ever passed comment to anyone about OW. When people asked me how I was, I answered honestly but kept my answers strictly aboout me and my FWH. She was nothing to me, and certainly nothing worth talking about. If anyone asked me what I thought of her, I told them that her life was her business and I was focused only on mine amd my FWH's lives.

I can't tell you how many people have subsequently told me how amazing I was during that time and how much admiration they had for me. It was certainly a big boost for my confidence when people started telling me how wonderfully well I'd handled everything. Little did they know how many tears I shed and how hard I had found it all.

Originally Posted by Dazed
Having MB to come to and speak to other ppl who know exactly what I'm going through, has been such a blessing. It really helps reaffirm my belief that I have nothing to be ashamed of, that I didn't do anything wrong THEY did, and that I'm not an idiot or a fool for being willing to take WH back and work on our marriage.

You have nothing to be ashamed of Dazed. Your H is responsible for the A. Not you. You have to own your share of the problems in the M and you have to work to fix your part but your H has to own the A 100%.

It is not weak to want to fix a M, especially when there are children involved. It takes much strength to rebuild a broken M and commit to making the M better than ever before. Set the bar high though. Do not accept mediocre. I told my FWH that he could work with me to build the best M in the world or leave. There was absolutely no way I was going to go through the pain of betrayal and go back to the pre A marriage. Read everything you can about MB'ing and work out what you want your M to look like. Discuss this with your H and then together come up with a plan to get you there.

Your M wont recover overnight but hopefully you will see improvements. I know for my FWH and I, just the process of working on a plan together and us visualising a wonderful M was exciting for us, and those moments of excitement and optimism helped offset the dark and painful times of early recovery.

Originally Posted by Dazed
He's never been good at talking about how he feels, but this morning he talked about his regrets, that it ever happened, that he can never take it back, that he caused me so much pain, almost lost the most important things in his life. It felt good to hear him talking that way, just the fact that he was being open with me in a way he hasn't in a very long time. Seeing him in pain is hard, but seeing that he seems to really 'get it' helps so much. One day at a time for now, but I have hope.

Good to read you have hope. Hope is essential. My FWH wasn't big on sharing his feelings either, but he is getting better. I hope your H understands how important it is that ALL the details you need come out now. It's terribly painful to find out at some later date that the WS has witheld information or has outright lied. I know from my own painful experience how bad trickle truth can be. Keeping your communication about the A safe certainly helps but most of all your H needs to really understand that you need what you need and he MUST be totally honest with you.

Have a good day.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Recovery Setback - 02/01/10 06:16 AM
Bad day today. I made a joke last night that with the kids back at school today, I'd have my own little nervous breakdown, since I've had the kids pretty much 24/7 for the past two months of summer break and have been 'holding it together' for their sake. I thought I was kidding, turns out, I wasn't.

WH has been fantastic today, saying really important things I need to hear, and went on his own initiative and bought HN,HN (bookshop didn't stock SaA or Lovebusters, which we'd planned on getting, so will order those online), and sadly, all I can seem to do is cry and shake and watch the movies in my brain that seem to be on a loop, going over and over again.

I think I needed this, no matter how painful it is. I wasn't sure what more I wanted to know about the A, feeling that some things I just didn't want/need to ask, but this has shown me that I need to ask for EVERYTHING. Better to get it done in one brutal move, than this slow poison I've been doing.

It's also helping me clarify what I need from him. He keeps saying "whatever you need, whatever you want", so I've figured out what that is, and how he responds to that will let me know where we really stand.

Childish perhaps, but he also called OW a floozy today, it made me giggle and feel a little better. I don't care if it was only said to reassure me, it worked a bit.

Hopefully tonight we will sit down once DD's are in bed and we'll 'amputate the infected limb', and once I really know EVERYTHING, I can truly start to put today and those mental video's behind me.

Thank you so much Sere, it was you that has helped me realise that 'protecting myself' is only hurting myself in the end, it won't actually stop the questions in my head, only full disclosure can ever hope to do that.
Posted By: serendipitous Re: Recovery Setback - 02/01/10 10:16 AM
Originally Posted by DazedInAus
Bad day today. I made a joke last night that with the kids back at school today, I'd have my own little nervous breakdown, since I've had the kids pretty much 24/7 for the past two months of summer break and have been 'holding it together' for their sake. I thought I was kidding, turns out, I wasn't.

It's important to remember that it is totally normal for your emotions to be all over the place for quite a while yet. I had regular meltdowns right through to our D-Day antiversary. Be kind to yourself and accept the bad days as part of the healing process. The first few months follow a very similar pattern for all BS's; shock, denial, depression, anger, accetpance - something along those lines.

What helped me was knowing that it wasn't the end of the world when I was having a bad day, it was still a part of my journey towards recovery. I also never got carried away with the good days. I remember when I first read of the 2-5 years to recover a M, and thinking I couldn't possibly wait that long to put the pain of infidelity behind us. I somehow thought that we could be different or we could rush the process. Quite simply, you just can't rush this. You can follow the narrow MB path and do it well but you can't do it quickly.

Having realistic expectations helped me in early recovery, so don't be too hard on yourself when you're feeling low. Come here, vent, and you'll get lots of support which will lift you back up.

Originally Posted by Dazed
WH has been fantastic today, saying really important things I need to hear, and went on his own initiative and bought HN,HN (bookshop didn't stock SaA or Lovebusters, which we'd planned on getting, so will order those online), and sadly, all I can seem to do is cry and shake and watch the movies in my brain that seem to be on a loop, going over and over again.

hug Recovery is not for wimps. It's tough. It's good that your H is being supportive of you, and so he should be. Good job on buying the book. Order the others online as soon as you can. We read SaA, LB'res, and HNHN - in that order.

Originally Posted by Dazed
I think I needed this, no matter how painful it is. I wasn't sure what more I wanted to know about the A, feeling that some things I just didn't want/need to ask, but this has shown me that I need to ask for EVERYTHING. Better to get it done in one brutal move, than this slow poison I've been doing.

Do this at your pace Dazed. The consensus of opinion is that it is best to get it ALL out as soon as possible and I agree, but make sure that whatever questions you ask, you are prepared (as best you can be) for the answers, because the answers you get are painful. Keep the discussion calm and if you feel it is getting too much, then take a break. Take a walk, wash your face, anything until you've calmed yourself, and then go back to the discussion when you're ready.

Originally Posted by Dazed
It's also helping me clarify what I need from him. He keeps saying "whatever you need, whatever you want", so I've figured out what that is, and how he responds to that will let me know where we really stand.

The truth will set you free. Hear it, talk through it and process it. Don't make any BIG decisions yet. It's early days and the general advice is that you shouldn't make major decisions for about six months after D-Day.

Originally Posted by Dazed
Childish perhaps, but he also called OW a floozy today, it made me giggle and feel a little better. I don't care if it was only said to reassure me, it worked a bit.

I know what you mean. I liked it too. The fog may be lifting but keep your eyes open.

Originally Posted by Dazed
Hopefully tonight we will sit down once DD's are in bed and we'll 'amputate the infected limb', and once I really know EVERYTHING, I can truly start to put today and those mental video's behind me.

One other bit of advice which is common sense really. No alcohol during these talks. It's tempting because the discussion you will be having is not going to be pleasant and you might feel tempted to have a drink just to take the edges off. Bad idea.

Originally Posted by Dazed
Thank you so much Sere, it was you that has helped me realise that 'protecting myself' is only hurting myself in the end, it won't actually stop the questions in my head, only full disclosure can ever hope to do that.

No problem Dazed. Keep coming back. It's a wonderful place full of wonderful and wise people. I have learned SO much, and still learn every day that I read here. Take care. I'll be thinking of you. hug
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Recovery Setback - 02/01/10 11:14 AM
I'm so sorry to hear of this, Dazed.

One more thing on disclosure: your H must willingly tell you this girl's name and where she lives. (Do not tell him that you intend to inform her parents, or he won't tell you.)

The reason is that you can never know that they are truly NC if you don't know that much about her. She might live in your street, or go to your church, and if you don't know those things you can never know he is NC or not. Dr Harley talks about this issue in one of the advice columns on this website. He says that a BS will not recover if she does not know who OP is.

I had had a quick look for it but cannot find it just now. I will look again later.

If your H is now back in your marriage, as you seem to be saying, then a sign of this would be his willingness to be forthcoming about the girl's identity. You should not have to be googling and doing detective work to find out who she is. I know I suggested this activity, but I was working on the assumption that the affair is ongoing to some extent. If it is, your H will not tell you anything, so you need to find out yourself so that you can expose. If it has ended but your H is still uncommitted to you, the affair is still warm and waiting to start up again. In this case, your H will not want to tell you anything because he is waiting to see what happens with OW, so again, you need to search and expose. If it has ended and he is remorseful and wants to compensate you for the harm he has caused, and he wants to rebuild love, then he will give you the information you need; with shame, quite likely, but willingly nonetheless.

I'm being very suspicious about this affair being over, partly because it ended very recently and partly because of your H's behaviour; seeming to want you back and so dating you and going to MC while continuing the affair. His lying during MC, and showing no withdrawal and not disclosing now.

Do not rely on your H"s seeming sympathy for your pain. That is not evidence of the ending of the affair. He was a good liar during recent months and you could not tell that he was having an affair. This might still be true right now.

Your H will agree to send a NC letter as described by Dr Harley if the affair is really over and he is committed to rebuilding.

Have you read ALL the free materials provided by Dr Harley on this site? Please start with this one: How to Survive Infidelity
Posted By: DazedInAus Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/02/10 05:57 AM
D-day #2 today, I found out, as Sugarcane kept insisting, that N/C had never actually happened and WH has still been in touch with OW.

He has now written a N/C letter and while I'm ok with it, I'd really appreciate some other's opinions before I send it off. Pasted below -

OW
I was incredibly selfish in my actions. I disregarded the feelings of my family. Dazed and my children. They mean more to me than anyone else or anything else ever could mean. They are my reason for living. I need to work on my marriage, and my family. They are my priority. The cruel and selfish act of being with you will forever be my biggest regret in life.
I cannot ever repay the pain I have cause Dazed, and my family. But my choice is to be the husband/father I should have been all this time.
I will not have any further contact with you, and I wish you to not have any contact with me.
Please respect my desire and choice to not have anything to do with you.
You are dead to me.

Posted By: Miss M Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/02/10 07:24 AM
Originally Posted by DazedInAus
D-day #2 today, I found out, as Sugarcane kept insisting, that N/C had never actually happened and WH has still been in touch with OW.

He has now written a N/C letter and while I'm ok with it, I'd really appreciate some other's opinions before I send it off. Pasted below -

OW
I was incredibly selfish in my actions. I disregarded the feelings of my family. Dazed and my children. They mean more to me than anyone else or anything else ever could mean. They are my reason for living. I need to work on my marriage, and my family. They are my priority. The cruel and selfish act of being with you will forever be my biggest regret in life.
I cannot ever repay the pain I have cause Dazed, and my family. But my choice is to be the husband/father I should have been all this time.
I will not have any further contact with you,do not contact me ever again.
Respect my desire and choice to not have anything to do with you.
You are dead to me.

The only change I would suggest is in bold above. And crossed out.

Great letter.

Love in Christ,
Miss M
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/02/10 01:26 PM
Agree with Miss M's changes and yes indeed, it is a fabulous letter.
Posted By: serendipitous Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/02/10 01:39 PM
Sorry to hear this Dazed. hug

I take it your WH has now disclosed all the details about the OW and that you are now in a position to expose to her parents?

Did your H come clean about the contact or did you find out by snooping?

Ask the mods to merge your threads as it's easier for everyone to keep up to date with your situation and give you the best possible advice if you stick to one thread.

Unfortunately, this is a quite common development, and it's extremely hurtful. You should not trust your H yet. He has much work to do and you neeed to keep your eyes wide open and set the bar high for him returning to your M.

The more eyes on your H and the OW, the better, so expose to everyone who could possibly have an effect. This includes OW's family.

Keep us posted. hug
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/02/10 02:02 PM
Quote
OW

I was incredibly selfish in my actions. I disregarded the feelings of my family. Dazed and my children mean more to me than anyone else or anything else ever could. They are my reason for living. I need to work on my marriage and rebuilding the trust of my family. They are my number one priority.

The cruel and selfish act of being with you will forever be my biggest regret in life. I cannot ever repay the pain I have cause Dazed and my family, but my choice is to be the husband and father I should have been all this time.

I will not have any further contact with you. Do not contact me ever again.

Respect my desire and choice to not have anything to do with you.
You are dead to me.

Slight massage of the verbiage and deletion of the "dead to me" line which is unnecessary, meant to show emphasis almost as a badge of honor and doesn't even suggest that he isn't open to negotiation on the point. Works in old mafia movies. Doesn't need to be there.

Combined a couple sentences, cleaned up punctuation...
Posted By: Scotland Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/02/10 02:06 PM
LOVE IT
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/02/10 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by Mark1952
Quote
OW

I was incredibly selfish in my actions. I disregarded the feelings of my family. Dazed and my children mean more to me than anyone else or anything else ever could. They are my reason for living. I need to work on my marriage and rebuilding the trust of my family. They are my number one priority.

The cruel and selfish act of being with you will forever be my biggest regret in life. I cannot ever repay the pain I have cause Dazed and my family, but my choice is to be the husband and father I should have been all this time.

I will not have any further contact with you. Do not contact me ever again.

Respect my desire and choice to not have anything to do with you.
You are dead to me.

Slight massage of the verbiage and deletion of the "dead to me" line which is unnecessary, meant to show emphasis almost as a badge of honor and doesn't even suggest that he isn't open to negotiation on the point. Works in old mafia movies. Doesn't need to be there.

Combined a couple sentences, cleaned up punctuation...

Agree 100% w/Mark on the changes!

Posted By: turtlehead Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/02/10 04:49 PM
Awesome as Mark edited it.
If your H won't agree to those changes, though, it is still awesome.
Posted By: Revera Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/02/10 11:59 PM
threads have been merged!
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/03/10 12:01 AM
Thank you all so much for your thoughts. Miss M, I made the changes you made, unfortunately I wanted it out as fast as possible so the changes Mark/Tst suggested didn't get made (I actually was going to clean that bit up too Mark, but WH wanted it the way it was and it was HIS letter so best for it to sound like him or she'll just say I wrote it and it's meaningless)

Sere, I found out, again. As I said I would, WH and I had sat down the other night and "gone through" the entire thing. I was feeling good, I finally knew everything, it was all out in the open and we could start putting her behind us and concentrating on us.

What Sugarcane was saying bothered me though, and kept echoing in my head, so I investigated. What I found out has come close to completely destroying me. Not only was almost everything he told me the other night yet more lies.

It started earlier than he said he did, he slept with her more than he said he did, in more places (including my car), he spent money on her he said he hadn't spent. He took her to a hotel, though he claims she paid half, and he took two days off work to take her her pathetic little high schooler friends away to celebrate their graduation.

He shared 'our' movie with her, whose theme song I walked down the aisle too. He shared "our' petnames with her, both terms of affection but also body parts (if you know what I mean without being crude), he was seeing her behind my back over every major event for the past year, our anniversary, my DD's birthday's, his and my Birthdays, Mother's Day, Christmas. More and more and more things he lied about, to my face, again.

He sent her a message the day after I found out, telling her that he was going to be calling her that night but that he didn't mean what he'd be saying. He continued to have her on his MSN after he told me she was blocked, he saw her twice in the city, once he arranged for "closure" and the second time was an 'accident' and he walked away as soon as he saw her, but why should I believe a word out of his mouth?

On top of that, I discovered that from just 6 months after our wedding, he was a member of several dating sites and was receiving and sending pornographic pictures to random women.

I am a wreck. I can't stop being sick, I can't stop shaking or crying. I love my H, I meant my wedding vows, but I don't know if I'm strong enough to do this. He's stolen every good memory I had and shared it with her instead. He may as well have spat on our wedding rings, that's how much meaning they have right now

Most of yesterday was spent crying, with him begging me if there was any chance, no matter how tiny, for him to keep me. I feel so weak for still wanting to work on and save our marriage. I've given him two weeks to start proving to me that things have changed, that he is changing. He's already taken steps, before I even found out. He's cancelled the dating sites (I checked), he's changed his email address and given me the password. He wrote the N/C letter, which I helped him with by showing him Tst's (thankyou Tst!), but he put it in HIS words, he wrote everything there voluntarily and he mailed it right in front of me with no hesitation.

I'd appreciate some outlines of exposure letters, or some suggestions. I am going to expose to OW's parents, as I have already done to mine. WH's boss also knows now as he had to inform her of why he was leaving work yesterday after I found out everything.

I have to get the girl's ready for school now. This is a complete nightmare and I just want to wake up frown
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/03/10 12:30 AM
Dazed, this is painful to read. I know exactly what you are going through. I know about questioning all those birthdays, wedding anniversaries, holidays etc. I'm so sorry.

Can you please tell me a few things:

How long HAS it been going on for? Since before March 2009, clearly.

How old was this girl when he started with her? This and the porn use makes me worried about his tastes.

How did you find out this information? Does your H now know of this source?

Dazed, your H is dangerous to you now, as I have been saying. He has watched you go through hell and put you through a false recovery, whist watching you struggle with sleeping and caring for the girls. You were "nearly destroyed" before, and he carried on doing what he was doing. Your being even more "nearly destroyed" now will not stop him. He needs to have something to lose in order to stop.

I don't know about exposure letters. I'm all for DRAGGING this girl's address out of your H and knocking on her front door, on a weekday evening when you can assume her parents will be home, and she as well. I would take a friend to support you and stop you doing anything violent that could land you in court. The goal is to put a stop to this CHILD interfering in your marriage.

You can expose to her circle as well, but I would speak to an 18 year-old child and her parents face-to-face.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/03/10 12:59 AM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Dazed, this is painful to read. I know exactly what you are going through. I know about questioning all those birthdays, wedding anniversaries, holidays etc. I'm so sorry.

Can you please tell me a few things:

How long HAS it been going on for? Since before March 2009, clearly.

January 2009.

How old was this girl when he started with her? This and the porn use makes me worried about his tastes.

She was a month off turning 17 when he started 'seeing' her. Am unsure exactly when they first had SF, will ask him when he gets here in a couple of mins, but I think it's safe to assume it was before she turned 17. It is worrying me too, though I've found no evidence of any other interest in young girls, and I HAVE looked.

How did you find out this information? Does your H now know of this source?

I got into the hotmail account he'd shut down. He changed the password to random letters/numbers so he wouldn't know the password, but then had chosen not to shutdown the work computer it was on, so he didn't have to log back in. Yesterday his work computer spat it and shut itself down so he lost access to the account. It took me about 30 seconds to get on, reset the password and put a new one in. I'm ashamed to admit, when I logged into his MSN and discovered her NOT blocked, I messaged her, abused her then blocked her before she could respond. Not my most shining moment :S Sadly yes, he knows of this source. I'm horrible at keeping things to myself

Dazed, your H is dangerous to you now, as I have been saying. He has watched you go through hell and put you through a false recovery, whist watching you struggle with sleeping and caring for the girls. You were "nearly destroyed" before, and he carried on doing what he was doing. Your being even more "nearly destroyed" now will not stop him. He needs to have something to lose in order to stop.

I don't know about exposure letters. I'm all for DRAGGING this girl's address out of your H and knocking on her front door, on a weekday evening when you can assume her parents will be home, and she as well. I would take a friend to support you and stop you doing anything violent that could land you in court. The goal is to put a stop to this CHILD interfering in your marriage.

The only 'good' news in all of this. The first night, when he told me 'everything', the first thing I asked was her full name and address. He gave them to me, so I know her address (and I checked it when we mailed the N/C letter yesterday). I can't go to her house, I just can't. I can't see her, I really am not sure I could control my more violent impulses right now and that wh*** isn't worth jail time for.

You can expose to her circle as well, but I would speak to an 18 year-old child and her parents face-to-face.

Her "circle" already know. She lost quite a few friends from being with a MM, but the ones that stuck around, think it's all a big joke and have apparently had a great time making fun of me.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/03/10 01:15 AM
Be careful with letters, Dazed. you must be sure that they get into the hands of her parents and are not intercepted by her. Your H might well have warned her that exposure is on the way and she could be looking out for the post.

Do no trust him, Dazed. Act as if he is still in contact and telling her everything. He is not your ally right now.

Would you be prepared to speak to her parents on the phone, if you could work out when she was at college? Her mother might be at home in the daytime. I think you need to speak to this mother for maximum effect.

Do you think they have had sex since he has been home? You need to stop having unprotected sex with him and get both of you checked for STDs, regardless of when sex last took place. Teenagers here are notorious for harbouring chlamydia.

Posted By: dsd Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/03/10 01:19 AM
the marriage builders forum need to report this to the policethis is harboring information about child abuse.Dazed the same to you!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/03/10 01:24 AM
Originally Posted by dsd
the marriage builders forum need to report this to the policethis is harboring information about child abuse.Dazed the same to you!!!!!!!!!
As far as Dazed knows, this girl had reached the age of consent in Australia, which is 16.

It is very distasteful but this does not seem to have started illegally.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/03/10 01:28 AM
I've just re-read this, Dazed:

"They met in a piercing shop in the city while he was on his lunchbreak, got talking, exchanged email/msn addresses and apparently, it didn't take long for the innuendo and inappropriate conversations to start, but because she was in High School at the time, he says he actually didn't see her very much, it was mostly contact via msn/email/mobile phone."

This fits in with pick-up sites and casual sex. This was not someone that he grew close to through work or church or in the neighbourhood; this was a pick-up.

This is very risky behaviour, and he might well have done this before.
Posted By: dsd Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/03/10 01:29 AM
Sugar i wondered if it was in Australia after i posted but didnt know if Aus in her name was for Australia or Austin Tx.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/03/10 01:59 AM
Originally Posted by dsd
Sugar i wondered if it was in Australia after i posted but didnt know if Aus in her name was for Australia or Austin Tx.

Yeah Australia Dsd. Us Aussies tend to forget there can be other meanings for that shortening.

As soon as I found out her age I did the research. If he'd been doing anything illegal, I would have reported it, no matter how I feel about him, but there is absolutely no legal recourse, according to law, they were doing nothing wrong. Morally is a whole other story, but sadly, you can't prosecute for broken morals.

Sugar, his emails show that he hadn't deleted anything, dating back to 2007 (how I found out about what was going on 6 months after our wedding). I did look, as I too felt that it was all just too 'easy' for this to start, but there is no evidence of any other actual hookups. Lots of emails to a couple of women, but they're in England and the US.

His words are worth SHoneT right now, but he has sworn repeatedly that this was the only time it's gone any further than emails. I have no reason to believe him, yet I do. When he met OW, his entire personality changed, he was NOT the man I married, even though it's been proven that he wasn't the 'man I married' long before the PA started. I guess I think if there had been other PA's or ONS's previous to this one, they also would have effected his personality.

Def no SF at this time, let alone unprotected. He already volunteered for a full STD check, and he'll be getting that done before I even consider letting him near me. We did the EN questionnaire from the website, and SF was not even in his top 5. SF has never been his problem. His problem is that he has a huge, to the point of very unhealthy, craving for Admiration, the emails and flirting filled that need, until something conveniently basically fell into his lap offering even more. I truly don't believe he went looking for it, but once it was offered to him on a plate, he certainly took it.

I can't find their phone number Sugar, it appears to be a silent number, and WH claims not to know it.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/03/10 02:41 AM
Okay, Dazed: when you write the exposure letter, give them a means to contact YOU. Perhaps supply a mobile number, just in case there is anything strange about them and you want to change the number later. You must try and follow up and make sure they received the letter.

In this country, a registered letter has to be signed for, but can be signed for by anyone. It does not have to be the addressee. Do you have a better system than we do?

I'm going to bed now, but keep posting to keep our thread bumped to the top. Other people here are very good on exposure letters.

You need to think about Plan B, in case this does not stop and you have to use it. Have you read the article What Are Plan A and Plan B in the infidelity section?
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/03/10 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Okay, Dazed: when you write the exposure letter, give them a means to contact YOU. Perhaps supply a mobile number, just in case there is anything strange about them and you want to change the number later. You must try and follow up and make sure they received the letter.

In this country, a registered letter has to be signed for, but can be signed for by anyone. It does not have to be the addressee. Do you have a better system than we do?

Sadly I don't think so, though I will look into it today. From memory, registered is the same here, as long as someone sign's for it, they don't care who it is.

I'm going to bed now, but keep posting to keep our thread bumped to the top. Other people here are very good on exposure letters.

I could use all the help I can get. I have no idea how to be considerate to them right now, they raised this piece of trash, so part of me has no sympathy for them, even though I know it's not their fault.

You need to think about Plan B, in case this does not stop and you have to use it. Have you read the article What Are Plan A and Plan B in the infidelity section?

I have, but I'm going to go re-read it today. Have managed to find a copy of SaA (it's hard to order that from the website if you're not US :() and will be re-reading that link you posted on Surviving Infedelity as well.

Sleep well Sugar, thank you so much! Posting here is one of the few things helping me hold it together right now.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/03/10 03:41 AM
My sister actually found a copy of SAA on EBAY so it isn't that hard to get outside of the US.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/03/10 04:00 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
My sister actually found a copy of SAA on EBAY so it isn't that hard to get outside of the US.

That's what I just did Scotland. Bookstores don't have it in stock and would have to order it from US Publisher, was going to order it on here but you have to call to order, can't do it online, so good 'ole Ebay it was.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/03/10 04:20 AM
Good. I am glad that you are going to get a copy of it. I read it 4 times already. I got HNHN off of there too. I suggested LB to my public library too. They will order it and tell me when it is in.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/03/10 09:01 AM
So I've also found out that he was never living with that "workmate", he was living with her. In the 'spare room' at her parents place so he claims. And I found pictures that made me literally vomit.

His bike and large DJ speakers are still at her house. He's trying to find a way to get them back without going there himself, which is an opportunity for me to get an exposure letter into her parents hands for sure. Hopefully either my nephew, who lives near her, can pick them up for us, or my best friend may be able to do it. Either way, someone I trust. Now I just need to write it. Any help much appreciated, I don't even know where to start.

I've given him two weeks to prove he means this. He's already arranging for some kind of IC to deal with his lying and craving for admiration at an unhealthy level and manner. He's changed his mobile number. I honestly have no idea what else he could possibly do to even make a start on repairing this, so any FWH or FWW's that might have any suggestions I could point him to would also be gratefully received (or any BS's that may have suggestions also) He has to make the effort to prove things to me, but some suggestions wouldn't hurt, IF he actually follows through on them.
Posted By: serendipitous Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/03/10 09:53 AM
WOW Dazed. hug

The cruelty of waywards never ceases to amaze me.

We've all been where you are now Dazed and you only have to look at the posts of BS's here to know that you WILL recover from this.

I very clearly remember the painful days when I was learning what my FWH had done and how it just felt like the worst of all nightmares from which there was no escape. I was shellshocked and barely functioned for weeks.

Know that "this too shall pass".

Your H is your enemy now. DO NOT trust a word from his mouth. What will help you is to take control of as much of this process as possible.

Exposure should be far and wide but targeted especially to those who can have an effect on the affairees. I agree with SC that a letter posted to this child's parents may not hit the target. If you cannot do face-to-face, then could someone (a family member or close friend} hand deliver it for you? The good thing about nuclear exposure is that EVERYONE in your life knows and some will want to support and help you.

How about a courier company given specific instructions about who the letter must be handed to?

We hope that her family will be outraged by her behaviour, and will warn her away but how about also telling them that you will have no alternative but to file harrassment charges if she attempts contact as you will see her contact as threatening to your family.

Keep the communication as businesslike and unemotional as you can but let them know the devaststation you and your children are going through as a result of their daughter's poor behaviour. Do not give them the opportunity to portray you as some sort of crazed loon. You are a mother protecting her children and doing the right thing by giving them the opportunity to protect their daughter.

Don't make any decisions about your M yet. There is plenty time for you to make those decisions, but do not make it easy for your H to return to the M. Set the bar high.

Spend some time writing down the conditions he must meet in order for him to return to your M and let him know that you have no desire to have your old M back. That M is gone. If you decide you want to try for recovery, then you will be building a new M.

I am so sorry for your pain Dazed. Know that you will get through this. Post when you can because you will get lots of support and good advice and it will help you through the tough times.

Take care and remember to keep your strength up. Eat as well as you can, get outdoors and take walks and try to get some sleep.
Posted By: serendipitous Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/03/10 09:59 AM
Sorry Dazed, I didn't see your last post before I started to write mine.

Originally Posted by Dazed
So I've also found out that he was never living with that "workmate", he was living with her. In the 'spare room' at her parents place so he claims. And I found pictures that made me literally vomit.

Am I understanding this correctly?

The parents of a 17/18 year old child allowed a 30 something man to move into their home? Did they know he was married with children? Were they aware that their daughter was sleeping with your H?

faint
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/03/10 10:45 AM
Originally Posted by serendipitous
Sorry Dazed, I didn't see your last post before I started to write mine.

Originally Posted by Dazed
So I've also found out that he was never living with that "workmate", he was living with her. In the 'spare room' at her parents place so he claims. And I found pictures that made me literally vomit.

Am I understanding this correctly?

The parents of a 17/18 year old child allowed a 30 something man to move into their home? Did they know he was married with children? Were they aware that their daughter was sleeping with your H?

faint

You understand completely. They were not aware of his age (he has a baby face) or that he was married, until two weeks after he'd moved in with them. Apparently they were "not happy" about either issue, and told him to 'get out asap'. Supposedly they wanted to kick him out there and then, but are useless at confrontation so didn't. So yes, they knowingly let an almost 30 year old married father of two live in their house for 7 weeks, they let him sleep in their 17 year old daughter's bed every night and the most they did or said was frowny faces.

I WILL write a letter to them, but it will purely state what my actions will be if their daughter does not stay the heck away from my husband. I WILL have her charged with harrassment, and happily at that. It's obvious to me that asking them to help keep her away from him, without obvious repurcussions, would be useless.
Posted By: serendipitous Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/03/10 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by DazedInAus
You understand completely. They were not aware of his age (he has a baby face) or that he was married, until two weeks after he'd moved in with them. Apparently they were "not happy" about either issue, and told him to 'get out asap'.

When I was that age, I was only allowed to have boyfriends come over if they stayed in the living areas of the house and they had to leave before my parents went to bed. I just do not understand how parents could allow this to happen under their roof, and then when learning the complete truth didn't inflict serious harm to your H.

Originally Posted by Dazed
Supposedly they wanted to kick him out there and then, but are useless at confrontation so didn't. So yes, they knowingly let an almost 30 year old married father of two live in their house for 7 weeks, they let him sleep in their 17 year old daughter's bed every night and the most they did or said was frowny faces.

faint

So your H supposedly stayed at a house with a 17/18 year old, slept in her bed - got up to "kinky" sex and took pictures. Her parents knew that he was married with children, knew a MM was sleeping with their daughter but they were frightened to confront him and throw him out of their own house so let him stay, and your H stayed there under these circumstances? I cannot imagine any parents I know allowing this, and I cannot imagine a man of his age staying in a family home, doing what he was doing, knowing that the parents wanted him out.

I've read some weird stuff here, but this is just "out there". I am so sorry Dazed. I know waywards do stupid things and are out of their minds when involved ion an A, but really!!!!! If I were you I would want to speak to the parents to corroborate this story.

Originally Posted by Dazed
I WILL write a letter to them, but it will purely state what my actions will be if their daughter does not stay the heck away from my husband. I WILL have her charged with harrassment, and happily at that. It's obvious to me that asking them to help keep her away from him, without obvious repurcussions, would be useless.

I don't think you can count on any worthwhile support from these people. Are there other younger children in their house during this period? You mentioned pictures that made you want to vomit and you've also mentioned "kinky" sex. Were the pictures taken in their house? Should they or the authorities/social services be made aware of these pictures?

I would also want to speak to this workmate/friend that he'd told you he was living with. Is it possible that he is protecting an OW2 with this story?

I'm sorry Dazed. hug
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Recovery Setback - 02/03/10 12:19 PM
Again, I'm so sorry, Dazed. Tel us how you found out this latest- and DO try and keep any new sources secret from WH.

Earlier, you wrote

Originally Posted by DazedInAus
WH himself told the workmate he'd been living with the morning after D-Day, and she was very angry with him...

Either this workmate was not involved in his living arrangements at all, and he flat-out lied about her, or she has helped to cover this up. You need to find out which. Can you speak to her?
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Opinions appreciated - N/C Letter - 02/04/10 02:02 AM
Originally Posted by serendipitous
I don't think you can count on any worthwhile support from these people. Are there other younger children in their house during this period? You mentioned pictures that made you want to vomit and you've also mentioned "kinky" sex. Were the pictures taken in their house? Should they or the authorities/social services be made aware of these pictures?

I would also want to speak to this workmate/friend that he'd told you he was living with. Is it possible that he is protecting an OW2 with this story?

I'm sorry Dazed. hug

The pictures I don't think are anything that could be acted upon. They made me sick but not because they were sexual, just intimate (hugging and tongues down each other's throats with lots of little hearts photoshopped onto them and "forever" and "soulmate"...standard smitten teenager type stuff I guess, but it made me ill). The "kinky" stuff is things she has posted in public on her myspace that she 'wants to do before she's 50". He says he had never even read her myspace (which I strangely believe, he hates myspace with a passion), so he had no idea. I'm positive he had some idea, but I really can't deal with graphic details atm.

Sugar - The co-worker knew nothing until the morning after DD #1. He then went and told her he'd been having an A, that I'd just found out and that he'd told me he was living at her place. Basically attempting to cover his tracks in case I went checking. She refused to cover for him so he's just been praying I wouldn't check. I was stupid enough not to, but I will be now, I have her email address and no, this time, he doesn't know where I'm getting my information.

Also, my best friend and her sister are going to OW's place to pick up the last of WH's things for us, so I've asked her to take a letter for me and hand it to OW's parents, so some suggestions on what to write would be really really great right now. I have no idea where to even start frown
Posted By: DazedInAus Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/04/10 08:49 AM
Ok, so I've written what I think is a sensitive exposure letter to OW's parents, but I'm way too close to this to judge accurately, so all opinions gratefully received!!

To OW's Parents

I am unsure as to exactly what you know regarding your daughterļæ½s current situation, so I would like to take this opportunity to give you a short background. WH and I have been in a relationship for nine (9) years, we have been married for three (3) years and have two (2) beautiful young daughters together. Twelve months ago, my husband and your daughter began an affair. WH and I were still very much married, happily so to my knowledge. The first idea I had that my marriage was in trouble was on 20th November 2009, 10 months after the affair began, when WH informed me he was moving out to ļæ½sort out his feelingsļæ½, but that he still loved me, and that there was no other person involved. Unbeknownst to me, he then drove from our home, to your house to be with your daughter. I finally discovered the affair on January 10th 2010, and immediately confronted him and asked him to make a choice. He did so and moved home on January 25th 2010.

I love my husband, I meant my marriage vows and I am willing to fight to keep my family together. On February 1st 2010, I discovered that my husband was still in contact with your daughter. After I requested that he cut off all contact in order to keep our relationship, my husband both emailed and land mailed your daughter a letter, requesting no further contact. I am now asking you, as her parents, to do your best to respect and aid with that, and in making sure this affair is truly ended so all parties can go on with their lives.

Sincerely
Dazed
Posted By: ConstantProcess Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/04/10 08:59 AM
Seems sensitive and well worded and to the point. I haven't read your thread but as far as I can see it looks good.

Others who read your thread and have contributed might have something to add.

God Bless on your recovery
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/05/10 01:08 AM
Dazed, this is completely outside my experience, but I'm sorry to say that this is the only part of your letter that I like:

Originally Posted by DazedInAus
On February 1st 2010, I discovered that my husband was still in contact with your daughter. After I requested that he cut off all contact in order to keep our relationship, my husband both emailed and land mailed your daughter a letter, requesting no further contact. I am now asking you, as her parents, to do your best to respect and aid with that, and in making sure this affair is truly ended so all parties can go on with their lives.

Sincerely
Dazed
I think that the rest is too personal and confessional. I think that the whole tone should be businesslike, and I really don't think that the marital backdrop to the affair should be raised. It is enough for them to know that he is a married man, they are this child's parents and they should be ashamed of themselves for letting her move her boyfriend into their house. Now they need to do the right thing and stop it.

Of course, you cannot SAY that, but I would like to see that sense conveyed.

You need to keep posting to your thread because it easily slips down the long list of threads on page 1, and onto page 2, unless it is constantly refreshed.

How have things been today?
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/05/10 01:35 AM
I shall rewrite it today and repost Sugar, do you think I need something prior to that paragraph, or can it just stand alone?

I feel bad keeping my thread bumped, like I'm spamming or something, but shall try!

Things today are a little better. I've been checking on WH constantly for the past couple of days, no evidence of contact, he has been showing some signs of withdrawl and last night we sat and went through the entire A, I got all my questions answered and for the first time, it really FELT like the truth, because he said things that hurt me. I felt quite proud of myself and strong, not a single LB from me, no matter how hurt I was! (need to cheerlead for myself sometimes!)

He went and got a full STD check yesterday (I checked, and he had def had a blood test) and he also got two referrals to psych's, one from the GP and one from his boss. Apparently, his workplace has a system in place for helping their staff, that we knew nothing about. His boss also asked him about how we were doing and offered full support for anything we needed.

He's also taken lunch to work every day since D-Day #2, so that he can stay in the office on msn to me so I know where he is, and I've logged into his new account a few times (without warning) to check his contacts etc, no sign of OW. He's been varying his time to leave to and from work to minimise the chance of her showing up, since she's well aware of what time he usually gets there and leaves. He's cancelled the internet access he had on his phone (I checked with our provider to make sure it had been cancelled and he wasn't just saying it)

So, I have a small slice of hope that this isn't another FR, but I'm doing my best to protect myself and my girls. He has a long way to go from here.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/05/10 02:15 AM
I'm glad things are a little better today. The referrals are very good news.

You need to get a full STD check as well. Again, I'm no expert, but I think one partner can be negative for some things when they have in fact had the infection and passed it to the other person. I think that herpes can be difficult to detect like that. You must be checked as well.

I don't think the paragraph can stand alone because I think that it refers to something in the part you cut out. I think you need a new beginning paragraph.

Can you hold off sending anything until you get some more help? I know that people here have written non-employer letters. I can't remember reading any to parents, though, but some people here are very good at exposure tactics.

You are doing so well. Don't be surprised if a down period hits you out of the blue. I think that you have a LOT more resentment and doubt to go through yet, but I'm glad today was better.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/05/10 02:36 AM
Tks Sugar, you're advice and thoughts have been so helpful to me, I really appreciate them.

I can definately hold off. My best friend will be handing it to them, and she won't be doing that until we can organise for her to get up there to pick up the last of his things. Trying to do that without breaking N/C is proving to be difficult to work out, as two strangers obviously can't just show up at their door and start taking property.

It's looking like WH will have to go in the van with them and stand outside so he can be seen, but lock himself in the van if OW steps outside the front door. Since her parents have a silent number and WH swears he doesn't know it, we cannot contact them to let them know we're coming. I'm pretty Ok with this, as I know if WH even looks at OW sideways, my best friend is likely to remove vital body organs or punch him one. She's, unsurprisingly, not too happy with WH right about now.

I will go and get tested next week, our local GP has a huge wait time *sigh*. WH looked into changing his work email, unfortunately it's impossible with the stupid way they've set it up, so he's just set up a rule in outlook that anything from her email address gets automatically deleted without being downloaded. He took screenshots of him doing it and emailed it to me.

I've had a few panic attacks and more sickness, but I managed to get a handle on them thankfully. I haven't been sleeping well, which isn't unexpected, but hopefully that will ease with time.

Silver lining, I've been working on losing weight due to serious health issues for months, I've managed to lose 4kg's in the past week! I'd have been much much happier to have kept them and not be dealing with this, or to have lost them in a better way, but being the eternal optimist I am, I'm willing to accept a silver lining where I find it.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/05/10 04:15 AM
*sigh*

The one thing he kept swearing to me, was that he did NOT see her on our wedding anniversary.

Was just checking through his old emails to see if he was telling me the truth in details last night, found an email from our wedding anniversary date. He definately saw her. When I confronted him, he seemed genuinely confused with no memory of it, so I'm not sure if he was deliberately lying to me or if he honestly didn't remember.

The email seemed to imply it would've only been a short contact on his way home from work, so is it possible that he truly forgot all about it?

Good day goes bad so easily. frown
Posted By: serendipitous Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/05/10 09:54 AM
Originally Posted by DazedInAus
Ok, so I've written what I think is a sensitive exposure letter to OW's parents, but I'm way too close to this to judge accurately, so all opinions gratefully received!!

Like Sugar, composing such a letter is way out of my experience and because it is very important I am loathe to write somthing that may be inapropriate. However, I'll be honest and say that I don't really like much of your letter to the parents. For me it reads as though you are tryung to justify yourself and your M, and you have no need to do that with them.

If I were to have a go, I would write something like this....


Dear OW's parents,

I am the wife of WH and I am the mother of our 2 wonderful daughters. My M to WH is of the utmost importance to me, and I fully intend to honour the vows I took on my wedding day and raise my daughters together with WH.

You will be aware that your daughter has been involved in an adulterous affair with my H. You must agree that adultery is very wrong and as a parent, I expect that you want better for your daughter than to be central to the destruction of a family.

It seems that you have in some ways supported your daughter's adultery with my H, and I now ask that you refrain from playing any further part in mine and my H's M.

My H has written to your daughter (copy letter attached) to let her know that he has returned to our M and wants nothing further to do with her. He will not contact her ever again. We expect her to respect his decision and not to instigate any contact with us whatsover.

My H and I are totally committed to rebuilding our M, and I ask that you respect our wish to do this by discussing the seriousness of this situation with your daughter and encouraging her to move on with her life without my H in it.

I will fight tooth and nail to protect and keep my family intact. Please understand that any attempt at contact by your daughter will result in the filing of harrassment charges. As one parent to another, I simply ask for your support in helping yor daughter and my beloved family to put this behind us.

Kindest regards.....



As I said, I realy don't have the necesaary experience to write a letter of this type, and I hope some vets can come along and put something better together for you.

{{{{{Dazed}}}}}



Posted By: serendipitous Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/05/10 03:04 PM
bump

for help with letter from vets..

smile
Posted By: serendipitous Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/06/10 09:06 AM
Morning Dazed. smile

How are you feeling today?
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/06/10 09:36 AM
Sorry Sere, Friday/Sat are chaos here between housework/shopping. First chance I've gotten to get on here.

Today's been another good/bad day. I've spent most of the day in the car running around, so I've gotten to enjoy mental images of WH and OW in my car together, which has been rough.

WH has been very supportive and comforting, which has helped. My MIL is watching our girl's overnight tonight to let us have some time alone together. It's been really hard trying to hold it together and act normally for my kids, so having a night where I can just let loose emotionally is a real blessing.

I'm still working on that letter. I love your version, but I suspect it's probably a bit too accusatory, and much as I want to tell them what wretched parents I think they are, I probably shouldn't! So BUMP for any vets that may have more suggestions pretty please! I'm completely stumped frown
Posted By: serendipitous Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/06/10 10:10 AM
Originally Posted by DazedInAus
Today's been another good/bad day. I've spent most of the day in the car running around, so I've gotten to enjoy mental images of WH and OW in my car together, which has been rough.

I'd look into changing the car if I were you.

Originally Posted by Dazed
WH has been very supportive and comforting, which has helped. My MIL is watching our girl's overnight tonight to let us have some time alone together. It's been really hard trying to hold it together and act normally for my kids, so having a night where I can just let loose emotionally is a real blessing.

Alone time is essential but be careful not to let too loose. naughty No alcohol either, as tempting as it might be. I found it virtually impossible to control my LB'ers after I'd had even the smallest amounts of alcohol.

Originally Posted by Dazed
I'm still working on that letter. I love your version, but I suspect it's probably a bit too accusatory, and much as I want to tell them what wretched parents I think they are, I probably shouldn't! So BUMP for any vets that may have more suggestions pretty please! I'm completely stumped frown

No problem with the letter. As I said, writing a letter like this is not within my experience so I'm sure someone else here will be able to come up with something better.

Have a good day Dazed.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/06/10 11:33 AM
From my inexperienced point of view, I very much like sere's letter. I think it manages to sound a little bit accusatory without actually being so. It also manages to sound threatening without containing anything that could lead to a charge.

I do wish to question their attitude to parenting. I am horrified that they let their 17 year-old schoolchild move her boyfriend in. It does not matter that they were deceived about his age and status; their job as parents was not to allow their schoolgirl daughter to shack up under their roof!

Although you cannot say that outright, it would be nice to imply that decent people would not have done this, and I think sere's letter does that.

The one thing I do not like is the word "wonderful" (as in daughters). I think that this one word brings in a touch of sentiment and floweriness, and I think the tone should be legalistic and non-nonsense - more "please be warned" than "I am heartbroken".

I might take out the lines about doing all I can to protect the marriage, because they too seem a little emotional to me, but not as much as the "wonderful".

Overall, though, sere's is the kind of letter I would have written. Let's hope for a few more responses soon.
Posted By: serendipitous Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/06/10 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
The one thing I do not like is the word "wonderful" (as in daughters). I think that this one word brings in a touch of sentiment and floweriness...

shocked You have me totally pegged SC. Over sentimental and flowery is me to a T. laugh

One of my jobs was as letter writer for the Chief Executive of a utility company and he loved my writing style but our legal department would often shake their heads at my letters because of the "flowery style" cry so its so funny you should say it too.

Originally Posted by Dazed
Overall, though, sere's is the kind of letter I would have written. Let's hope for a few more responses soon.

Thanks SC. I so hope there are more responses from vets as I want this letter to be right for Dazed. The parents could be important allies.

Can't you call in the troops SC?
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/06/10 02:59 PM
I'll use my megaphone.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/07/10 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by serendipitous
I'd look into changing the car if I were you.

That was one of my first requirements. Everytime I get in it, questions start running through my brain. I asked a few of them yesterday, but some I just don't want to know. Do I really need to know if it was front or back seat after all? frown What makes it worse it that right before she died, my grandmother bought me a car. We traded in the car she bought me, as payment towards this current one, so now it feels like my grandmother's last gift is tainted.

Originally Posted by serendipitous
Alone time is essential but be careful not to let too loose. naughty No alcohol either, as tempting as it might be. I found it virtually impossible to control my LB'ers after I'd had even the smallest amounts of alcohol.

I was definately careful, though it was hard at times. We went out for dinner to somewhere that has always been special to us both (and he made sure I knew he'd never even mentioned the place to OW, never mind taken her there), and both chose not to drink anything but water and softdrink.

It was really nice, we talked lots, about little things we'd never really talked about before, just random stuff. I enjoyed it.

Unfortunately, we then went to the movies. First thing I see when I walk in is a giant poster for a movie that I'd really wanted to see, that he took OW too sigh That pretty much set the tone for the movie part of the night. He made subtle little digs about my liking for the Twilight series, he never cared before, but OW hates that series with a passion, so it obviously rubbed off.

I had mental images through most of the movie of what they did when they were seeing a movie together, which made it really hard to enjoy it, even though I'd really wanted to see it. I wanted last night to be about US, not them, so I refused to ask any questions and bring her into it more than she already was, but it was hard.

Originally Posted by serendipitous
No problem with the letter. As I said, writing a letter like this is not within my experience so I'm sure someone else here will be able to come up with something better.

Have a good day Dazed.

I think, if I don't get any other thoughts, that I'm going to make the changes Sugar suggested and send something similar to your letter.

As you can see from my original, I'm also the 'flowery' type, which is hard to reign in, but yours hits the spot really well and I much prefer it to mine, I just wasn't sure if it was ok to take a dig at them, no matter how much I wanted to!

Have a great night Sere, as always, your help and support is invaluable!
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/07/10 02:28 AM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
I do wish to question their attitude to parenting. I am horrified that they let their 17 year-old schoolchild move her boyfriend in. It does not matter that they were deceived about his age and status; their job as parents was not to allow their schoolgirl daughter to shack up under their roof!

Although you cannot say that outright, it would be nice to imply that decent people would not have done this, and I think sere's letter does that.

I completely agree with you Sugar! I was raised in a single parent family, and my Mother was absent ALOT, so I had very very few rules or boundaries, but even SHE never allowed me to move someone in when I was under 18! I did have boyfriends allowed to stay overnight, but we had a spare room and the doors had to be left open (although she was out so much at night, she missed alot going on right under her nose).

Once I was 18 she did allow it, but she also knew my then BF's family very very well, and she knew everything about my BF including his age and marital status (and if that status had been "married" she would have kicked both of us to pieces, since infidelity by my Dad is what broke my parents marriage up)
Posted By: saynomore Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/07/10 02:38 AM
Dazed, I am so sorry for your pain. Sometimes in reading these posts it sends me right back to those early days of R. I do remember that one night I realized taht without my knowledge or approval, OW had taken a year and a half of my life and I was never going to let her have another minute of my time with DH. That was the night that I quit letting anything she had said, done or thought with my DH bother me. After all, he was with me not her.

God's Blessings,

Say
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/07/10 06:16 AM
Originally Posted by saynomore
Dazed, I am so sorry for your pain. Sometimes in reading these posts it sends me right back to those early days of R. I do remember that one night I realized taht without my knowledge or approval, OW had taken a year and a half of my life and I was never going to let her have another minute of my time with DH. That was the night that I quit letting anything she had said, done or thought with my DH bother me. After all, he was with me not her.

God's Blessings,

Say

Thank you Say, that is fantastic advice. She has stolen so much from me, not just the year of the A, but other pieces of my history now feel tainted from this (they parked the car in a place I used to BMX as a child for example). She's not worth allowing her to take anymore from me. I am a million times better than her in every way, and I should put her in the trash where she belongs.

I have always been a very strong person, and have had other things happen in my life where I've stood up and told myself "I will not give this person power over me by allowing it to effect my life anymore", but I wasn't doing that with this. Thank you for reminding me of who I am and how strong I can be!

I know I'm going to have good days and bad days for a long time to come, especially with all this being so fresh and new and the lack of trust and faith in WH I have atm, but I'll keep reminding myself that she's not entitled to another second of either of our times.
Posted By: reading Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/07/10 06:36 AM
My WH has 'tainted' more special places and things for me than your average wayward SO I realized that I simply could not play into this personally.

If I were you, I would reclaim the car. Do your own sort of delightful cool thing in it to make it okay again. Something like lay on the seats and chant funny limericks to lighten the aura in it or etc.

The special places that were violated? Go there and say out loud "I reclaim you for my own special memories" (I had to do this to my own hometown. The entire town!)

You can not pitch out all the violated things and places or you would go nuts!
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/07/10 07:22 AM
Originally Posted by reading
My WH has 'tainted' more special places and things for me than your average wayward SO I realized that I simply could not play into this personally.

If I were you, I would reclaim the car. Do your own sort of delightful cool thing in it to make it okay again. Something like lay on the seats and chant funny limericks to lighten the aura in it or etc.

The special places that were violated? Go there and say out loud "I reclaim you for my own special memories" (I had to do this to my own hometown. The entire town!)

You can not pitch out all the violated things and places or you would go nuts!

I really like these idea's Reading, thank you! I'm plotting ways to take back my car as I type!

I am a very spiritual person, OW is an atheist, so I'm definately considering a blessing of some sort, maybe a few crystals or herbs also.

Reliving parts of my childhood at some of these places (I haven't ridden a bike, esp a BMX one in years!) is definately worth considering too. Not just to reclaim 'my' spots, but also to remind me that no matter what I go through, I'm still capable of having innocent, childlike joy.

An entire home town? Ouch! Thankfully I only have a couple of suburbs, though they are pretty large area's. I cannot afford to not claim them back, firstly because that's giving her and the A more power, and secondly, my family live in one of those area's, and I will not allow her to make me want to avoid visiting them!

Thank you so much for your suggestions Reading, I'm such a ball of contradictions atm, I couldn't have even figured out where to start!
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/08/10 12:31 PM
Today was another not so great day in some ways, but good in others. WH admitted to feeling the withdrawl pretty badly this morning and didn't want to wake me up to help him through it (it was 5amish). However he was strong and apparently resisted the impulse to break N/C, instead waiting for me to get up so we could talk about it.

He also made sure he came home at lunchtime so I knew where he was (showing consideration for my concern that he HAD given in and broken N/C and would see her during his lunch hour like he used to), by his own choice and suggestion.

I'm starting to believe that this time, N/C has really been established and will actually last, he's being much more open with me, taking steps to protect himself from temptation and I'm seeing real, sincere shame and guilt and repentance.

Still looking for more opinions on the exposure letter to OW's parents, and also, I have to admit, kind of wavering on whether there's even a point to it. They already knew he was married and had kids when they allowed him to continue living in their house, will an exposure letter do anything other than annoy them?
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/09/10 02:09 AM
I'm having a problem atm and hoping someone can give me some advice or differing perspectives.

WH and I talked the affair out and I got all of my questions at that time answered, and I felt like a weight had been lifted, just knowing.

Now, I find more questions randomly popping into my head, and so I ask them as they come up. They don't seem to be deep, burning questions, just random things, like I remembered in a few pictures of her I've seen, she's wearing a heart necklace, so now I want to know if it was my WH that bought that for her, or did he buy her any other jewellry.

The questions bother me enough that I WANT an answer, but this constant popping into my head is causing a form of trickle truth that's really bothering me, because it brings things back to the forefront of my mind and I end up hurting again.

Is this normal? Does anyone have any suggestions for either a better way of dealing with this, ignoring the questions that continue to pop up or just how to get through it and some idea of how long this may continue to occur for?
Posted By: RedsWife Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/09/10 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by DazedInAus
Is this normal? Does anyone have any suggestions for either a better way of dealing with this, ignoring the questions that continue to pop up or just how to get through it and some idea of how long this may continue to occur for?

I think it's normal. I've been told to write the questions down and ask them later. Before I ask them I look over them again to see if it's something I really want to know.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/09/10 07:01 AM
Thank you RW. It helps to know I'm not just clinging and it is a normal way of things.

Really not a good day today, I'm very negative, LoveBank feels like it's pretty empty. Wondering if it's worth it, if I wouldn't be better off cutting my losses. If it's really possible for me to ever feel safe with WH husband again, or if I even want to. Do I still love him, even after all this, or is it just my fear of the unknown keeping me trying. How do I tell the difference?

My mind isn't a very nice place at the moment. How do I express all my anger and resentment, without LB'ing? I feel lost and clueless right now and I can't talk to WH about it because he's the cause and I KNOW I'll LB, more than I already have.

He keeps saying his biggest fear is that I'll change my mind about wanting to work on the marriage and I'll walk away, and I keep telling him that I won't do that, but is it true? How can I reassure him when I can't even reassure myself?
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/09/10 07:59 AM
I agree - it's pretty normal to be like this.

I also suggest you write them down and sit on them for a week before asking them. It's also normal to ask the same questions a few times.

Is your Husband reading here on MB? Is he following the plan for recovery? It sounds as if he just wants it all behind him - he should not be getting annoyed at your questions.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/09/10 11:21 AM
Normal. As new info comes in it causes you to think of new questions.

This is not trickle truth. Your WH has not refused to answer your questions. More like trickle question.

Hard to recover talking about the PA all the time. Being you had your big talk you can set one evening during the week to ask questions. Say Tuesday or Wednesday so you keep the weekends free for recovery.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/09/10 12:14 PM
Thanks BK and Road, I really do appreciate your insights.

BK, he hasn't expressed an ounce of annoyance or frustration with my questions, but has said that it upsets him a little because it brings his own feelings of shame and guilt to the forefront again, but he's also acknowledged that those are his to deal with and not mine. I'm just wondering if I'm hurting myself more than helping myself at this point.

As Road said, hard to recover if I'm bringing it up constantly and making us both hurt. I think I'll def take the advice to write them down and leave them for a specific time, after re-reading them to make sure I actually want to know. You're correct Road, it's not actually trickle truth, I just didn't know how else to phrase it

BK, he's reading alot on MB, but trying to avoid the forum to give me my space. He knows I'm posting here and doesn't really want me to worry about what I say in case he might read it. I have suggested a few times that him posting here might be helpful for him also, but he hasn't chosen to do that and it's completely up to him if he would like to or not.

We're following the plan for recovery, just waiting for our copy of SaA to arrive from the US publishers as no bookstores in Aus keep them in stock.
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/09/10 12:17 PM
Originally Posted by DazedInAus
just waiting for our copy of SaA to arrive from the US publishers and no bookstores in Aus keep them in stock.
Not sure if this is available down under, but SAA is available as an eBook through Amazon...

The US link
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/09/10 12:23 PM
Originally Posted by Fred_in_VA
Originally Posted by DazedInAus
just waiting for our copy of SaA to arrive from the US publishers and no bookstores in Aus keep them in stock.
Not sure if this is available down under, but SAA is available as an eBook through Amazon...

The US link

Ooooo, thank you Fred, I didn't even think to look for ebook versions, and I was under the impression you had to have an actual Kindle for the Kindle Books, but turns out you don't. Will def mention this to WH so we can get working on it faster. He might not be interested since we've already paid for the Hardcover version, but no harm in letting him know.

Sooner the better in my mind.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/09/10 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by DazedInAus
Thanks BK and Road, I really do appreciate your insights.

BK, he hasn't expressed an ounce of annoyance or frustration with my questions, but has said that it upsets him a little because it brings his own feelings of shame and guilt to the forefront again, but he's also acknowledged that those are his to deal with and not mine. I'm just wondering if I'm hurting myself more than helping myself at this point.

As Road said, hard to recover if I'm bringing it up constantly and making us both hurt. I think I'll def take the advice to write them down and leave them for a specific time, after re-reading them to make sure I actually want to know. You're correct Road, it's not actually trickle truth, I just didn't know how else to phrase it

BK, he's reading alot on MB, but trying to avoid the forum to give me my space. He knows I'm posting here and doesn't really want me to worry about what I say in case he might read it. I have suggested a few times that him posting here might be helpful for him also, but he hasn't chosen to do that and it's completely up to him if he would like to or not.

We're following the plan for recovery, just waiting for our copy of SaA to arrive from the US publishers as no bookstores in Aus keep them in stock.

H answered all of my questions about the A, but of course there were additional things I felt I needed to know as we began R. I haven't heard of any BS's who got all of their questions answered in one sitting, since it takes some time to process everything. Please do write them down. It is counter-productive and can be a LB to blindside him with them.

My H hates it when I have a question because it does bring up all of the old feelings of guilt and shame, but he knows I reserve the right to ask anything at any time.

I am also careful about my reasons for asking and whether it's just 'picking at the scab' because I think a negative consequence of asking could be bringing up memories of the A that I don't want him to dwell on. With that thought in mind, I sit on the questions until I am sure I need to know the answer.

Keep a memo book in your purse and jot them down as you think of them.
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/10/10 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by DazedInAus
We're following the plan for recovery, just waiting for our copy of SaA to arrive from the US publishers as no bookstores in Aus keep them in stock.

You'll find most of Dr Harley's books at Koorong - www.koorong.com.au - I got most of my books there after d-day.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/10/10 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by bigkahuna
Originally Posted by DazedInAus
We're following the plan for recovery, just waiting for our copy of SaA to arrive from the US publishers as no bookstores in Aus keep them in stock.

You'll find most of Dr Harley's books at Koorong - www.koorong.com.au - I got most of my books there after d-day.

Are they written in Australian, BigK? smile
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/10/10 01:42 AM
Thank you BigK, I'd never heard of that one before and always love knowing somewhere else I can buy books. Being in the backwoods part of Aus can be a real pain when trying to get your hands on things.

Thanks MB, it really really helps just knowing I'm not alone, that other people understand and know exactly what I'm going through.

I'm in a much better frame of mind today. WH and I had a good talk last night, and I got to see MY husband for most of the night, not the stranger he'd turned into. The personality change while the A was going on was so complete it was scary sometimes. His eyes even changed colour, our 7 year old commented on that just a few days ago, asking if Daddy's eyes had been blue when we met, and when I said yes, she said she was glad they were blue again, she didn't like it when they were green.

His driving has become sane again. He'd gotten so aggressive in his driving that I was almost terrified to get in a car with him, let alone allow our girl's to, and his temper is mostly back to pre A state, he's not angry all the time anymore.

It's funny, I'd noticed all the personality changes, even that his eyes were more often green than blue, but I'd never really realised how bad they were until they started going away.

I think I'm finally starting to believe that we might really be heading into Recovery, seeing the man I married finally start to come back. We have a long road to walk, but at least I can start to think we've taken the first steps.
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/10/10 01:42 AM
Shaddup Mel!!!

Wiseass
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/10/10 01:44 AM
Jes thought I would point out that Dr H speaks ENGLISH!! We are American, after all... smile
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/10/10 01:45 AM
rotflmao
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/10/10 01:46 AM
Does he speak the Queens English or that silly Yankee American version?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/10/10 01:48 AM
Originally Posted by bigkahuna
Does he speak the Queens English or that silly Yankee American version?

I am the only Queen in America, silly! And down here we speak TEXAN!!
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/10/10 02:04 AM
Good thing Dr Harley isn't Texan

rotflmao
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/10/10 02:06 AM
why oh why do we let these silly foreigners into America? sigh
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/10/10 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
why oh why do we let these silly foreigners into America? sigh

Imagine how boring life would be without us around to amuse you? whistle
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/10/10 02:25 AM
Originally Posted by DazedInAus
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
why oh why do we let these silly foreigners into America? sigh

Imagine how boring life would be without us around to amuse you? whistle

This could be true. Imagine my amusement when BigK and his wife came to my house in TEXAS and watched their first VIAGRA commercial. [I thought they were going to cry laughing! rotflmao] And it was amusing when American cashiers asked them to pay and they carefully counted out their American coins and then asked the teenaged cashier "is this right?" grin
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/10/10 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
And it was amusing when American cashiers asked them to pay and they carefully counted out their American coins and then asked the teenaged cashier "is this right?" grin
I gave up with that. I just used to hand over my purse and ask the cashier to take the money out herself.

And I nearly DIED having to watch Viagra commercials sitting next to my kids in the hotel room.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/10/10 02:32 AM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
And it was amusing when American cashiers asked them to pay and they carefully counted out their American coins and then asked the teenaged cashier "is this right?" grin
I gave up with that. I just used to hand over my purse and ask the cashier to take the money out herself.

And I nearly DIED having to watch Viagra commercials sitting next to my kids in the hotel room.

There's Viagra commercials on TV? Well that just makes me want to take a holiday just for the laugh factor!

Oh my goodness, I can't stop giggling just thinking about it. rotflmao

It feels so GOOD to just laugh. Can't remember the last time I giggled like this!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/10/10 02:39 AM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
And it was amusing when American cashiers asked them to pay and they carefully counted out their American coins and then asked the teenaged cashier "is this right?" grin
I gave up with that. I just used to hand over my purse and ask the cashier to take the money out herself.

And I nearly DIED having to watch Viagra commercials sitting next to my kids in the hotel room.

rotflmao

The only downside is that BigK REFUSED to let us take him to OUTBACK Restaurant and take his picture!! Disappointment was our lot in life! sigh
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/10/10 03:00 AM
rotflmao

Yes Mel - you and MrsW were never going to achieve that goal!

Blooming Onions indeed.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/10/10 03:24 AM
Originally Posted by bigkahuna
Blooming Onions indeed.

I see you are still in bloomin onion denial!! We Americans know a thing or two about a thing or shrimp on the barbie! laugh
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/10/10 03:36 AM
I love "shrimp" on the barbie!
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/10/10 11:59 PM
On a more serious note....any suggestions for my exposure letter anyone? Should I just go with Sere's version, forget it or try again?
Posted By: turtlehead Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/11/10 01:08 AM
I like Sere's version. You had wondered if there is any point, given that her parents are less than stellar examples of guidance. I say deliver the letter. That way you have done YOUR part and the rest is out of your hands. You won't wonder if you should have sent it, or wish you had.

One thing your WH might do to help earn his "F" is to get a phone that has GPS and keep it with him and turned on at all times so you know where he is. You can see that he's in the office at lunch time, and you can call to verify he didn't just leave it sitting on his desk.

Was most of his email/IM contact with OG (other girl, she's not a woman) from his home computer or from work? You could put a key logger on the home computer.

After a month or so you could request that he take a polygraph if you're still unsure of ongoing contact.

Also after a few weeks, when a bit of the super-trauma has settled, you and your H should consider doing the home course (click "Seminars" at the top or bottom of the page).
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/11/10 01:56 AM
Originally Posted by turtlehead
I like Sere's version. You had wondered if there is any point, given that her parents are less than stellar examples of guidance. I say deliver the letter. That way you have done YOUR part and the rest is out of your hands. You won't wonder if you should have sent it, or wish you had.

Great point that I hadn't thought of Turtle. How they feel or what they do is neither my problem nor something I can control, but at least I won't be stuck with Woulda/Coulda/Shoulda's.

Originally Posted by turtlehead
One thing your WH might do to help earn his "F" is to get a phone that has GPS and keep it with him and turned on at all times so you know where he is. You can see that he's in the office at lunch time, and you can call to verify he didn't just leave it sitting on his desk.

He's going to look into it today smile

Originally Posted by turtlehead
Was most of his email/IM contact with OG (other girl, she's not a woman) from his home computer or from work? You could put a key logger on the home computer.

It was all either at work or via his mobile. The net access for his mobile has been cut, so he can no longer access hotmail/FB from it, and I haven't found any evidence of sms's being deleted or anything else.

Work is obviously our biggest issue. I can't watch him while he's there and I have no real way to check on him. Most contact was via hotmail and msn, he has no access to his old hotmail/msn account, I changed the password and he has no idea what it is (with his permission). I randomly check his new hotmail/msn contacts list and there's no sign of her. He's set up a rule on his work email so it auto deletes anything from her without him even seeing it, and he swears he never gave her his work phone number. I guess I should be grateful he had enough brains not to risk his job more than he already was, by at least not using work resources.

His immediate boss is aware of the situation and is watching him like a hawk. She really likes me and is disgusted and disappointed in him right now. She actually punched him when he told her (gently on the arm, but still). She's told him if she sees even a single sign that he's breaking N/C she WILL interfere as well as let me know.

Originally Posted by turtlehead
After a month or so you could request that he take a polygraph if you're still unsure of ongoing contact.

I've looked into the possibility of this. Likely it's going to work out way out of our budget, since our house seemed to decide to go down with the ship and start falling apart just as he moved out of home. Our washing machine died, our bed frame snapped, our pets brought a plague of fleas that had to be professionally treated...feels like the house costs atm are neverending frown It's still a possibility though.

Originally Posted by turtlehead
Also after a few weeks, when a bit of the super-trauma has settled, you and your H should consider doing the home course (click "Seminars" at the top or bottom of the page).

Again, financially atm we def can't do it. We're going to work through HN,HN and SaA first, then see where we are in a couple of months, but have def considered this. WH also suggested the chance of attending a MB weekend. Would be a huge challenge to finance it, but we're considering it. Saving our M is worth at least looking into it.

I think Sere's version seems to be the way to go, with the changes SC suggested. I'm going to re-read it now and then probably print it out ready for my BF to deliver when she goes to get WH's things. Thank you Turtle!
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/12/10 02:06 AM
Just wanted to update for everyone and myself. The rollercoaster continues, up and down.

After the advice from everyone the other day, I managed to go an entire day without mentioning A once, was quite proud of myself and also felt alot better. Unfortunately when we went to bed WH said something that triggered me badly, not so much fun, but he held me through it and gave me lots of reassurance and comfort, which helped alot.

Got his STD test results back yesterday, all clear. I still have to get mine done, I had to give up my GP app to my girls, who both currently have chest infections, so it's postponed for a week.

He has his first IC appointment today and I'll admit to being a little worried. There's some real quacks out there and I guess I'm a little concerned he'll get told it was all my fault or something. Unfounded but a concern none the less.

WH is very down on himself atm, worried he's a 'born liar' and I'd be better off without him, why am I bothering with him, how can I possibly still love him etc. I think alot of it is withdrawl but I'm keeping an eye on him. If it gets much worse, I'll suggest he look into AD's

Still waiting to hear back from my BF about picking up the last of WH's things from OG (thanks Turtle, I much prefer that wording!) home. Have got the exposure letter to her parents all printed out and signed, ready to go, but my best friend is super busy at work this week so I haven't heard from her. Hopefully it can be done soon, that's the last link to OG and I want it severed asap and her out of our lives.

I suspect she's holding on to hope. The same girl that claimed in an email not even a month ago that she'd "never let him go" and would "fight for him" has made no efforts to contact him, which really surprised me. Then I remembered his things still at her home, and she has no idea that I now know he was actually living there, so she obviously expects him to go alone to collect them and I'm guessing she's waiting for him to do that to try and talk him around.

Is it wrong for me to admit that imagining the look on her face when he shows up with my two best friends and stays in the car while they get his stuff, is making me feel a rather sadistic kind of glee? I'm a very mellow person as a general rule, so this hateful side of me actually scares me sometimes, but I think it's pretty normal, at least I hope so!

Sere and SC, I haven't seen either of you in awhile. Hoping you're both doing well. Sere, I was reading your thread the other day. You and BB are a real source of hope and inspiration for me, I hope I can show the same strength and poise you've shown throughout your journey.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/12/10 04:30 AM
cry

I am in complete shock and horror right now at the randomness that can trigger me.

WH was on his way to his IC appointment and he sent me a pic on his mobile so I knew he was where he said he was. He chose to send me a pic of a flyer/bill for a new comedy on at the theatre in that suburb.

The same theatre that WH and I went and watched Strassman at when we were dating. Strassman that WH's Mum bought me a DVD of for Christmas in '08, that I hadn't actually watched yet, that WH borrowed to watch while we were seperated, that he then sat and watched with OG.

I was shaking too much to respond to WH and he called me to let me know he'd reached the IC's office so I told him I'd triggered. When he asked what happened and I mentioned that was the theatre we'd seen Strassman at, he immediately knew it was the DVD that was the problem, but he mostly sounded annoyed, impatient and frustrated.

I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he was annoyed and frustrated that he couldn't come be with me atm, since he was about to walk into his IC appointment, left his car keys in the office and hence even if he did head home instead, it'd still be at least an hour and a half before he could get here, but I can't help feeling like he's starting to see this as all too much hassle.

If that's the case, then I have no idea what to think or feel. I'm probably just overreacting and being oversensitive, since he just sent me a really lovely sms being very supportive and loving and reassuring, but needed to get this off my chest anyway.

I hate it so much that he shared so much of "our" things with OG. Claiming them back is going to be a long hard process. sigh
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/12/10 10:06 AM
Originally Posted by DazedInAus
Is it wrong for me to admit that imagining the look on her face when he shows up with my two best friends and stays in the car while they get his stuff, is making me feel a rather sadistic kind of glee? I'm a very mellow person as a general rule, so this hateful side of me actually scares me sometimes, but I think it's pretty normal, at least I hope so!

Sere and SC, I haven't seen either of you in awhile. Hoping you're both doing well. Sere, I was reading your thread the other day. You and BB are a real source of hope and inspiration for me, I hope I can show the same strength and poise you've shown throughout your journey.
Dazed, I meant to raise this before:

Your H is not to go to her house under any circumstances. He has to IMMEDIATELY never see her again. Dr Harley insists on this, and those of us who have had repeated contact (even non-physical) can tell you how it hurts the BS, has a negative effect on the WS and sets recovery back to day 1.

Every time your H has any contact of any kind, the memory of the affair is revived. Even just seeing her through a car window will do this. There will be at least a few days during which he will think about her and wonder how she is. No doubt he is doing that anyway, but he seeing her afresh will revive his feelings.

You will notice him struggling with his feelings, and you will experience a terrible slump yourself.

OG will write to him and tell him how moved she was by seeing him and how she wanted to throw herself into his arms puke His inner turmoil puke will be reignited puke

I want no excuses from you on this. If you cannot just leave his stuff for her to dispose of as she wishes, then there must be some other arrangement made. In your shoes I would be going with my best friend and making a dignified appearance, exuding contempt for her and her trashy parents. I would be showing that I was having the last word, that I AM HIS WIFE and the harlequin romance was over.

Don't tell me why he must go there. Please tell me what you are going to arrange instead.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/12/10 10:58 AM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by DazedInAus
Is it wrong for me to admit that imagining the look on her face when he shows up with my two best friends and stays in the car while they get his stuff, is making me feel a rather sadistic kind of glee? I'm a very mellow person as a general rule, so this hateful side of me actually scares me sometimes, but I think it's pretty normal, at least I hope so!

Sere and SC, I haven't seen either of you in awhile. Hoping you're both doing well. Sere, I was reading your thread the other day. You and BB are a real source of hope and inspiration for me, I hope I can show the same strength and poise you've shown throughout your journey.
Dazed, I meant to raise this before:

Your H is not to go to her house under any circumstances. He has to IMMEDIATELY never see her again. Dr Harley insists on this, and those of us who have had repeated contact (even non-physical) can tell you how it hurts the BS, has a negative effect on the WS and sets recovery back to day 1.

Every time your H has any contact of any kind, the memory of the affair is revived. Even just seeing her through a car window will do this. There will be at least a few days during which he will think about her and wonder how she is. No doubt he is doing that anyway, but he seeing her afresh will revive his feelings.

You will notice him struggling with his feelings, and you will experience a terrible slump yourself.

OG will write to him and tell him how moved she was by seeing him and how she wanted to throw herself into his arms puke His inner turmoil puke will be reignited puke

I want no excuses from you on this. If you cannot just leave his stuff for her to dispose of as she wishes, then there must be some other arrangement made. In your shoes I would be going with my best friend and making a dignified appearance, exuding contempt for her and her trashy parents. I would be showing that I was having the last word, that I AM HIS WIFE and the harlequin romance was over.

Don't tell me why he must go there. Please tell me what you are going to arrange instead.

Hopefully we've come up with a better solution, but I would appreciate your thoughts on it first SC. You're wonderful at pointing out the issues for my currently messed up brain. THANK YOU!

WH remembers where OG's father works and it should be reasonably simple to get either a call transferred to him or his email address.

If WH contacts her father and arranges with him for the ok for my friend's to go over and collect his things without him, would that contact be likely to set either of us off?

There is no way we can leave the stuff there, there's over $2000 worth of DJ equipment there atm (and if you think I'm not furious at him for that, you're wrong), nothing else that's there is worth it, but that equipment is not something I want HER having the benefit of.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/15/10 05:09 AM
Valentines was a rough day. We'd decided to spend the day with friend's of ours rather than try for anything 'romantic'. Unfortunately the friend's are having some serious marital problems of their own, which we kind of got dragged into. Made for a not so comfortable afternoon.

WH's attempts to atone and prove his commitment to R included a lovely bracelet and a notice in the annual "book of love" that appears in our newspaper every year. I didn't get him anything as I still don't particularly feel like celebrating right now.

WH was very loving and supportive and falling over himself to reassure me all day, which was great. I had a few moments of tears. Stupidly enough, looking at my washing machine, which he bought for me 2 weeks before he moved out, had me bawling. I'd told my Mum about it and wasn't I lucky to have such a wonderful, loving, generous hubby etc. Turns out he went shopping for it WITH OG, and she'd protested mightily at him buying it for me! So doing washing yesterday set me off *sigh*

Rest of the night was good, but he went to bed before me and once I joined him, my brain was flooded with thoughts and mental images. At least I know for now on that going to bed seperately is a BIG mistake.

His IC app went well, he has some homework to do that she wants me to help with and she prescribed him naturopathic sleep/anti anxiety aids, which seem to have helped over the last few days. Next app is Friday so we'll continue to see how it goes.

Really rough couple of weeks coming up, between WH's birthday, our youngest DD's birthday, the 1 year anniversary of the first time WH slept with OG and our Wedding Anniversary, all in the space of 4 weeks. Not looking forward to it really.

Knowing he saw her last year on our wedding anniversary means there is no chance in heck of me wanting to celebrate that day. Our "other" anniversary, of how long we've 'been together' is a week beforehand. Since I've found no evidence to suggest he saw her that day, Mum suggested we just celebrate that instead. Since that was our original wedding date, it makes sense and might make me a little less likely to trigger big time.

I'm frustrated with myself, because I can't seem to stop myself from LB'ing when the resentment and anger starts to build up. Any suggestions for what I can do control myself?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/15/10 05:59 AM
I see you have been married for three years yet he has been cheating on you almost two of those years.

And you still want to save the short marriage? Wow.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/15/10 06:12 AM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
I see you have been married for three years yet he has been cheating on you almost two of those years.

And you still want to save the short marriage? Wow.

One year, not two, and just because we spent 6 of our 9 years together, unmarried, does not in any way, shape or form diminish their impact or relevance. Not to mention the fact that we have 2 young children together, or that we love each other.

Whether a marriage is 'worth saving' is no one's to judge but the people involved.
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/15/10 06:55 AM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
I see you have been married for three years yet he has been cheating on you almost two of those years.

And you still want to save the short marriage? Wow.

They have children together - a good enough reason for trying Bubbles.
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/15/10 09:39 AM

Quote
Any suggestions for what I can do control myself?

Well, yea, I do have a suggestion.

Get HNHN and go through the stuff in it. Both of you.

Devote 15 hours a week together.

And all that good stuff that Harley teaches.

Larry
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/15/10 12:13 PM
Originally Posted by DazedInAus
WH remembers where OG's father works and it should be reasonably simple to get either a call transferred to him or his email address.

If WH contacts her father and arranges with him for the ok for my friend's to go over and collect his things without him, would that contact be likely to set either of us off?

There is no way we can leave the stuff there, there's over $2000 worth of DJ equipment there atm (and if you think I'm not furious at him for that, you're wrong), nothing else that's there is worth it, but that equipment is not something I want HER having the benefit of.
Dazed, I'm hoping someone with experience will chip in here, but I am not sure that your H should be making contact with that family at all.

Are you willing yourself to contact the father and make the pick-up arrangements?
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/15/10 12:15 PM
"atone and prove his commitment to R included a lovely bracelet.... looking at my washing machine, which he bought for me 2 weeks before he moved out, had me bawling. I'd told my Mum about it and wasn't I lucky to have such a wonderful, loving, generous hubby etc. Turns out he went shopping for it WITH OG, and she'd protested mightily at him buying it for me! So doing washing yesterday set me off *sigh*"

Time to remove a trigger. Tell WH you need a new washer more then a new bracelet.

Many a BS here has had their WS get rid of a car, bed, sofa, etc, that got contaminated by the OP.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/17/10 03:33 AM
I haven't been tuning out and will respond soon, but I wanted to share a mental image that just made me laugh until my sides hurt. It really cheered me up so I figured it was worth sharing.

WH earns good money, and so I'm blessed to be able to be a stay at home Mum and be here for my children. OG was well aware of the kind of money he earns. She is a just graduated from high school child, who did not sit any University entrance exams and who, it has become clear from my snooping, isn't really interested in the only kinds of jobs she'd be qualified/hired for, being entrance level type work or customer service.

She clearly saw my WH as a gravy train, since she was blatently emailing him constant links for expensive townhouses for rent for the two of them. It's obvious who she expected to be paying for it.

So I was just outside taking in the washing and thinking about all of this, then I started picturing the look on her face when she FINALLY managed to manipulate him into moving out of home, and he informed her that yes, he was moving out, but that no, Dazed would NOT be going on Sole Parenting govt benefits, that he would be continuing to pay all household bills, buy groceries, pay half the rent and give Dazed spending money for herself whenever she asked for it (he did a whole lot wrong, but at least he did the right thing financially).

I can't picture her being too happy about watching all her little fantasies of an expensive townhouse for her to lounge around in while he went out and earnt a living to support her, crashing down around her ears. Especially when she was desperately playing the 'sweet, supportive, understanding girlfriend' for all she was worth, so really, she couldn't say a word of complaint without making herself look bad.
rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao

Right now I've got to take amusement where I can find it.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/17/10 03:46 AM
Originally Posted by TheRoad
"atone and prove his commitment to R included a lovely bracelet.... looking at my washing machine, which he bought for me 2 weeks before he moved out, had me bawling. I'd told my Mum about it and wasn't I lucky to have such a wonderful, loving, generous hubby etc. Turns out he went shopping for it WITH OG, and she'd protested mightily at him buying it for me! So doing washing yesterday set me off *sigh*"

Time to remove a trigger. Tell WH you need a new washer more then a new bracelet.

Many a BS here has had their WS get rid of a car, bed, sofa, etc, that got contaminated by the OP.

I will stand corrected, OG did NOT help choose the washing machine, I actually inadvertently did while WH and I were discussing machines via email a few weeks before he bought it, and she wasn't with him when he went to get it.

We're already in the process of getting rid of the car, contaminated BIG by WH and OG. I adore this machine, so I'm willing to give it some time. Before that incident I'd done washing every day without even a twinge, and have been using it every day since without any thoughts at all, except maybe a snigger, since OG DID get annoyed with WH for "spending money on HER"...to which WH responded that I was his WIFE and his children needed a working washing machine and it was really none of HER concern.

I wouldn't believe him about that conversation, but have to admit that financially, he did do the right thing by myself and the kids the entire time we were seperated, so it makes it more believable for me.

Road, you're probably more than correct and we'll have to end up getting rid of it, but this is my dream machine! The one I always wanted and we could never afford before, not to mention it's only 4 months old. My stubborn streak is showing here and if I regret it, I'll happily take my "I told you so's", which will be well deserved.

Oh, and the bracelet, while lovely, was nowhere near the cost of a new machine. It's amethyst, which is my favourite stone, but certainly isn't an 'expensive' stone as a general rule. It is the fact that he actually remembered what my favourite gemstone was, and went out and found something that was very 'me' that makes it special and 'atonement', considering the complete lack of interest in anything to do with my likes or interests during the A.
Posted By: DazedInAus Re: Exposure Letter to OW's parents - 02/17/10 04:01 AM
Originally Posted by _Larry_
Quote
Any suggestions for what I can do control myself?

Well, yea, I do have a suggestion.

Get HNHN and go through the stuff in it. Both of you.

Devote 15 hours a week together.

And all that good stuff that Harley teaches.

Larry

Thank you Larry. We're currently working our way through HN,HN's. Our copy of SaA SHOULD be arriving tomorrow, if it doesn't, I'll be downloading it from Amazon instead.

I was mostly just hoping for some suggestions of the right thing to do when I'm about to LB (yeah, we need to buy that book also but it'll be a couple of weeks until we can afford to).

When I ask him a question regarding the A, I'm generally in an ok place and I do thank him for being honest with me, since I know he's having problems with that, and I don't LB, but sometimes something comes up that just makes me so angry. I end up with AO's and DJ's all over the place. Is it better for me to just walk away from him before they pop out of my mouth, or is it better to let my anger and bitterness out at this stage, rather than letting it fester.

This is my quandry and if the answer is in one of the books, I'll obviously find out soon, as reading has been badly delayed between sick kids with me at home and him being at work all day.

It's been hard work getting the 15 hours of UA the past week. With both my girl's sick they've been understandably clingy and not wanting to go to bed at night, so that definately hasn't helped and we'll need to work harder on it this coming week. I never really thought about how important that time could be until reading on here.

I really appreciate you taking the time to offer help and suggestions. All of the people on MB are a true blessing at this time, I feel like I'm back in Kindergarten and I have so much to learn.
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