Marriage Builders
Posted By: lostnscared Cant stop snooping - 03/06/10 10:45 PM
Been through alot in our 10 year marriage. Wife seems to wander every couple years or so. Best man at a wedding, old ex she met at a funeral. Facebook has been the killer, hid the account from me until i installed a keylogger on my comp. Read all the msg's to the ex, nothing super bad but it def shouldnt be in a healthy marriage. Talk of nude pics, wild sex that sort of stuff. We worked through that the last few weeks but i cant stop snooping. The last 3 weeks were the best we've had in years but i always fall back to wondering. How can i break this cycle? She says she doesnt know what to do at this point, she cant live with me constantly looking for faults to hold over her...
Posted By: redhat Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/06/10 11:09 PM
Welcome to MB. Fill you time with reading and learning MB. Get MC asap.

You need to let W knows that trust will have to be earn not given. It just had been a few weeks, it takes a long time to build trust back. Should you stop snooping ?, it is no longer snooping if you let W know what you are doing. It is part of precaution/amends.

Invite W to read How A should ends.

Learn how to fillin each other ENs and avoid LB'ng.

-rh-
Posted By: lostnscared Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/06/10 11:14 PM
To be honest at this point im so emotionally spent from snooping. I told her 2 months before this happened that 2010 was gonna be a bad year, something was gonna push our marriage to the limits. She just told me i was always negative and looking for stuff. A person can tell when things arent right though, it just took my comp getting a virus for me to start to look hard. But i really wanna stop looking for more i just cant help myself.
Posted By: nesre Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/06/10 11:14 PM
Lostnscared

Welcome to MB's. Sorry you find yourself here.

To answer your question-

Quote
How can i break this cycle?


USE THE MARRIAGE BUILDERS PROGRAM

Theres a ton of free stuff just waiting on this site for you to read. After you read come back and ask questions.

There are also MB's weekends that you two could attend. Those are put on by professionals. Check it out at the upper right part of the page. If you can afford it it would be a wise investment for your M.

Also at the top of the page is the Basic Concepts. This explains the concepts used here on this forum.

This is the best place I know of to try and repair a M so read-post-read-post

The weekends are a little slow so be patient for responses.

Again-Welcome to Marriage Builders.

Nesre
Posted By: Gamma Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/06/10 11:16 PM
LnS,

How can you NOT snoop, or could you ever snoop enough?

A best man?, a guy at a funeral? the dude at McDonalds? I would suspect there are many more, do you have children?

Gamma
Posted By: lostnscared Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/06/10 11:23 PM
Yeah 3 kids, 10b, 6g, 3g and she has downs which doenst help matters. I can be about 95% sure nothing physical has happened. The best man, i found the prepaid cell phone she had to talk to him with confronted things got bad, then better. Then my bro got some inside info and he told her he knew everything she needed to come clean or he would. She came home cryign saying she wasnt completely honest and told what happened. Without knowing what he knew it leads me to believe she had no choice but be honest. The ex at the funeral he asked about nude pics and told her how sexy she was, he asked if she was wild in bed. She then informed him he would never know because they were both married and nothing would ever happen. I can tell each time somethings goin on, she changes big time and gets real distant. So my intuitions say these are the only 2.
Posted By: Gamma Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/06/10 11:40 PM
LnS,

Have you spoke with the OMs, they might provide further info.

Gamma
Posted By: lostnscared Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/06/10 11:59 PM
The first one would never return my calls. I tried atleast 15 times, left msg's would never answer. I had one shot when i found the phone and she went to work without it i called from that but he didnt call until she got home. I got all mad and went to the bathroom to hurl. The funeral dude i msg'd him the next day asked what was goin on. He swore it was platonic, all she ever talked about was me. I can say in the msg's i read i never saw mention of me once though. I did tell him what a douche he was asking for nude pics from a married women though. He told me it was all harmless.
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/07/10 12:28 AM
LnS,
welcome to MB, sorry you have to be here.

The compulsive snooping is a direct effect of the lack of trust within your marriage. It will continue until trust is restored. In order for trust to be restored, things like your W writing some extraordinary precautions (EP's) that make you feel safe, and help her protect herself from herself would be a great start. I'll find the link for that shortly.

Infidelity is a symptom, not a cause of marriage breakdown. In order to help restore lost love, the Emotional Needs Questionnaire (ENQ) and Love Buster Questionnaire (LBQ) will help you two to identify where you need to most target your efforts.

I think the books 'His Needs, Her Needs' and 'Fall in Love, Stay in Love' will be very helpful. However all the info can be found on this website in the 'Articles' section.

MB can help your M alot. Is your W willing to join you in the programme?

Posted By: lildoggie Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/07/10 01:24 AM
EP Article link

ENQ

LBQ

I am having some problems finding the EP list. Hopefully Tst or one of the other FWS can link it for you
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/07/10 01:35 AM
Originally Posted by lostnscared
We worked through that the last few weeks but i cant stop snooping. The last 3 weeks were the best we've had in years but i always fall back to wondering. How can i break this cycle? She says she doesnt know what to do at this point, she cant live with me constantly looking for faults to hold over her...

You should NEVER BREAK that cycle. NEVER! If she can't live with complete transparency, then you should not stay married to her because she is NOT SAFE.

As a responsible person, you should snoop on her EVERY DAY.

And if she has nothing to hide, she won't mind. You have a RIGHT to know every thing she does. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.
Posted By: lostnscared Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/07/10 02:36 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by lostnscared
We worked through that the last few weeks but i cant stop snooping. The last 3 weeks were the best we've had in years but i always fall back to wondering. How can i break this cycle? She says she doesnt know what to do at this point, she cant live with me constantly looking for faults to hold over her...

You should NEVER BREAK that cycle. NEVER! If she can't live with complete transparency, then you should not stay married to her because she is NOT SAFE.


As a responsible person, you should snoop on her EVERY DAY.

And if she has nothing to hide, she won't mind. You have a RIGHT to know every thing she does. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.


You know a couple hours ago i was like OMG what am i doing? I cant believe i dont trust her. But once i had time to sit back and think this is all eerily familiar. Everytime im close she gives me the you always snoop, i cant live like this and it always makes me back down. Maybe shes doing that to get me off her trail so she can cover tracks better? She swore she was gonna have to change her FB pw if im gonna be a "stalker" but even though she said it was changed last night she hasnt done it yet. edited because of a peculiar qoute.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/07/10 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by lostnscared
Maybe shes doing that to get me off her trail so she can cover tracks better? She swore she was gonna have to change her FB pw if im gonna be a "stalker" but even though she said it was changed last night she hasnt done it yet. edited because of a peculiar qoute.

She is HIDING something. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. I would go to spectorpro.com and buy eblaster and slap a keylogger on her computer. I would then get a GPS and a voice activated recorder and put it in her car. If she uses a PDI, install flexispy, if she uses your land line, slap a tap on it. [Radio Shack] You need to be snooping like a BLOOD HOUND, Sir.

No one has the right to the privacy to destroy you behind your back.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/07/10 03:07 AM
Originally Posted by lostnscared
[You know a couple hours ago i was like OMG what am i doing? I cant believe i dont trust her..

Of course you don't trust an untrustworthy person. It would be INSANE to trust an untrustworthy person. crazy It is TOO MUCH TRUST that has led to her affairs. If you had been watching like a hawk it might not have happened. So, don't feel guilty about snooping! smile
Posted By: wannamoveforward Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/07/10 02:27 PM
Quote
Been through alot in our 10 year marriage. Wife seems to wander every couple years or so. Best man at a wedding, old ex she met at a funeral.


First of all call it what it is multiple Affairs , not wandering.
She has an AFFAIR every few years in the last 10 years?
How many OM's are there?
Do YOU know why she seeks other men, is it merely the thrill of it or is there a deeper rooted issue there ?

Quote
She says she doesnt know what to do at this point, she cant live with me constantly looking for faults to hold over her...


What has she changed so that she can convince you that she wont do this again so you can stop holding this little fault over her head.
Posted By: 26years Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/08/10 01:05 AM
Wow, I so identify with you. Things are good, we are progressing well. Buttttt.........I still have a need to snoop, and it's a bit ridiculous, even to me. I try to catch myself, I've even video taped him in the bathroom when he's taking a shower. It's like I'm obsessed with it.

Sure enough he caused this on hisself and he should have thought about all of this before the affair. However, at the same time, I know it's wrong some of the snooping that I do isn't necessary.

I told him I'm guarding my heart. It's like when a person breaks into your house, it puts you on the defense. Some people purchase a security alarm, a dog or even put bars on their windows. That's how I see it, I'm protecting myself from this happening again.

I heard someone say to me on this board that I shouldn't become so obsessed with the snooping and stop working on rebuilding my marriage. I must say, this week has been good, but the need to snoop still exist.
Posted By: SDCW_man Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/08/10 01:13 AM
Perhaps with the exception of a "couple's account" with a single, known-to-both password:

THERE IS NO LEGITIMATE REASON FOR ANY MARRIED PERSON TO BE ON FACEBOOK

(or any social networking service)

I have seen too many affairs, both on MB and IRL, that began "innocently" on Facebook. It's so sad..
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/08/10 01:45 AM
Originally Posted by 26years
I heard someone say to me on this board that I shouldn't become so obsessed with the snooping and stop working on rebuilding my marriage. I must say, this week has been good, but the need to snoop still exist.

26years, snooping helped me recover my marriage and it will you too. Snooping is GOOD FOR MARRIAGES, not bad. It helps you protect yourself and it also helps you learn to trust him again when you see what he is doing when he thinks you are not looking. Just think, if he decided to start up his affair again, you wouldn't know unless you are snooping.

Your so called "obsession" is a RATIONAL reaction when your spouse has harmed you. It is your emotions telling you to watch your back. And they are right!!
Posted By: MaiMai Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/08/10 02:09 PM
Originally Posted by lostnscared
So my intuitions say these are the only 2.

I would not trust your intuition. Snoop and you will get the truth.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/08/10 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by lostnscared
Been through alot in our 10 year marriage. Wife seems to wander every couple years or so. Best man at a wedding, old ex she met at a funeral. Facebook has been the killer, hid the account from me until i installed a keylogger on my comp. Read all the msg's to the ex, nothing super bad but it def shouldnt be in a healthy marriage. Talk of nude pics, wild sex that sort of stuff. We worked through that the last few weeks but i cant stop snooping. The last 3 weeks were the best we've had in years but i always fall back to wondering. How can i break this cycle? She says she doesnt know what to do at this point, she cant live with me constantly looking for faults to hold over her...

Holy mackeral, lost. Snooping is the best thing you can do for your M right now! Get out of the mindset that your W is entitled to privacy. Change that word to secrecy. She's not. You absolutely need to scrutinize her actions.

My FWH is the model for a remorseful, reformed H. I mean the very model. Do I still snoop? You betcha! Probably always will, to some degree. And he can snoop on me, any time he wants. Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

And this is how it always should have been! We never should have had passwords the other one didn't know, cell phones that were never scrutinized, movements that weren't occasionally confirmed. It's a matter of care and protection for your M!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/08/10 02:16 PM
The only people who have a problem with snooping are people who have something to hide! Snooping is a virtue that keeps marriages SAFE and ACCOUNTABLE. Who doesn't want that other than a WAYWARD?
Posted By: redhat Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/08/10 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by lostnscared
To be honest at this point im so emotionally spent from snooping. I told her 2 months before this happened that 2010 was gonna be a bad year, something was gonna push our marriage to the limits. She just told me i was always negative and looking for stuff. A person can tell when things arent right though, it just took my comp getting a virus for me to start to look hard. But i really wanna stop looking for more i just cant help myself.


Yes, this is normal feeling and it became obsessions. Trust will come back when your WW earns it. Is she willing to shutdown her FC and stay away from online for now while working on M ?.

If she doesn't you know chances for contact is continuing, just collect the data and use it later.

You could take a break from snooping and focus on your M right now. If WW want to cheat she will find a way and WW could get around any snooping. Are you willing to take action if WW still active in EA online ?.

Take a break from snooping, focus on MB and check the logs again a few weeks from now. Your WW will do what she wants to do.

Focus on Plan A ... no LB and fillin ENs.

Have you read How to survive infidelity ? . Everytime you want to snoop try to read a few pages of MB until the feeling subside.

-rh-
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/08/10 05:32 PM
IMO, how much a BS needs to snoop is the same as how much info they need to hear about the A. Everyone is different. Some want every last horrible thing the two of them did, down to how many times, locations, etc. Snooping is a matter of how much a BS needs to do in order to feel safe. I'd say as long as your gut tells you to snoop, snoop. Don't try to distract yourself from it. Just do it. The time will come when you find yourself doing it less and less - not coincidentally, it will come less and less as your WS earns back more degrees of your trust. It won't come as a sudden "Hey, I trust WS now!" epiphany.

At first I checked H's work voice mail and his work email a couple of times a day. Then it was once a day. Then it was "Oh! It's already almost noon - I forgot to check his email!" I forgot to check for three days last week. No matter - H knows that I will always reserve the right to access every corner of his life. He conducts himself like an open book now and doesn't care. He has access to all my stuff, too - but never checks it! He says he doesn't have to because he trusts me. Oy - never blindly trust! Thank you though, Mr. Bliss smile

I remember telling my H, in the beginning of R, that he had sentenced me to a lifetime of being a detective. I don't look at it that way now. Now I look at it like this: When we married, we became one and need to know the things the 'other part' of us is doing, so the whole body benefits. It's made me more aware of the gift, and responsibility, of having and maintaining a M.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/08/10 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by lostnscared
How can i break this cycle?

This question implies that trust is something you can control. You cannot make yourself trust someone. Your trust of someone will grow or diminish based on that person's behavior. Any normal person would feel very unsafe with your W.

The more your W gaslights and tries to turn things around on you... the more anxious you will feel = the more you will want to snoop.

My guess is you will feel safer and less urge to snoop once these three things happen...
1) your W closes her FB or any social networking acct down
2) offers to be transparent and stops gaslighting you
3) your snooping uncovers no further wayward activites for a period of time (maybe 2 years or more)
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/08/10 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
[This question implies that trust is something you can control. You cannot make yourself trust someone. Your trust of someone will grow or diminish based on that person's behavior. Any normal person would feel very unsafe with your W.

The more your W gaslights and tries to turn things around on you... the more anxious you will feel = the more you will want to snoop.

BINGO!! Well said, Susie!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/08/10 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley
"So one of the most common clues of an affair is an unwillingness to let a spouse investigate all aspects of life. If two lives are necessary for an affair, and if a spouse is curious enough, the secret second life is relatively easy to discover. Difficulty in getting a spouse to talk about events of the day can be a sign of trying to hide the second life.

One of the most common smoke-screens used by unfaithful spouses is to express shock that their spouse would be so distrusting as to ask questions about their secret second life. They try to make it seem as if such questions are an affront to their dignity, and a sign of incredible disrespect. They figure that the best defense is a good offense, and so they try to make their spouses feel guilty about asking too many questions.

I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding?
Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?
Posted By: 26years Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/08/10 10:52 PM
I was a snooper before this incident, but now it's more serious. I am learning to control myself to a degree. I just refuse to let this happen to me again. You know the saying, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on ME.

Posted By: WorseForWear Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/08/10 11:34 PM
I never used to snoop or question, but now I do all the time. Not as much as when I first found out, but ignorance isn't bliss - it's painful!

He calls it "being on a short chain." Why? Because I text him when he works late or doesn't show up on time. He says he feels like he has to have his cell phone with him all the time so in case I text, he can respond quickly.

Funny how having the cell phone handy wasn't a problem when they were texting each other 30-40 times A DAY...
Posted By: lostnscared Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/09/10 01:07 AM
I'm sure im wrong but i dont want her to close the FB. I still do have the PW and its a very easy way for us to both chat when shes at work. She works nights, i work days so we both spend a fair amount of our evening chatting back and forth. Little things annoy me though like today was alot better, friday and saturday i figured we were heading down the soon to be D day. But i get home and the browser history is deleted. I know she did it to "punish" me for snooping last week but this is not how to be transparent. There isnt an item i own she cant go through or look at, i could care less. And thanks for all the advice guys, really helped get me through a couple real rough days reading the articles and your responses.

I will say i delete my history because im not ready for her to find anything i post on a forum. She has never understood the benefit of places like this to spill your guts.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/09/10 01:39 AM
Originally Posted by lostnscared
She has never understood the benefit of places like this to spill your guts

Of course not! She has too much to hide. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. She has LOTS to hide..
Posted By: redhat Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/09/10 03:40 AM
Quote
I know she did it to "punish" me for snooping last week but this is not how to be transparent.
w/o LBng ... ask her why she did it. Explain how you feel about it.

Shutdown FB and find alternatives.

Depending you provider, some router has logging capabilities. History or not, anything pass through the wire is captured.

-rh-
Posted By: lostnscared Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/12/10 01:40 AM
Since the "im tired of your snooping" blow up things have gotten alot better again. I mean i feel the love, dont see many of the WW signs maybe ive become that insecure that i take any little thing and make it bigger than it is. Checked the keylogger all week and nothing damning has popped up at all. I know with a fact she doesnt know ones installed.
Posted By: myfamilyilove Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/12/10 02:11 AM
Don't ever stop snooping EVER!
Posted By: Zeke351 Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/12/10 02:13 AM
lost,

I can honestly say that as you go down the road to R the feeling you need to "snoop" will lessen. It takes a while. As my W and I make progress the feeling has lessened (not stopped certainly)as trust is being reestablished. I look at the feeling as a "trust" meter. As trust is built up, the feeling goes down.

That being said, I will never again not "snoop"! I will defend my marriage in everyway including "snooping".

Trust but verify!

These are just my opinions and may (probably will) vary from many others here.

Zeke351
Posted By: redhat Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/12/10 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by lostnscared
Since the "im tired of your snooping" blow up things have gotten alot better again. I mean i feel the love, dont see many of the WW signs maybe ive become that insecure that i take any little thing and make it bigger than it is. Checked the keylogger all week and nothing damning has popped up at all. I know with a fact she doesnt know ones installed.


Good. Give your WW chances to earn a W title.

Take a break from snooping when it is too much but never give up that option. Forgive doesn't mean you have to forget it.

FB for chat, isn't that over kill ?. There are many other specialized chat programs out there.

-rh-
Posted By: lostnscared Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/12/10 10:37 PM
Yeah i def wont stop snooping it just wont be as hardcore as it was. I have a feeling my last big snoop where i got caught was just a breakdown by me, feeling there has to be more. Yeah FB is a little overkill for just chat. I guess im just to soft, as pointless as alot of the games are she's spent alot of free time on the stupid farm and all those other games and i cant take that from her. She told me after the initial discovery if it wasnt for the games she'd just close the stupid account. I'm sure i'll get an earfull for that feeling but thats ok. One thing ive learned through the years with the world we live in if someone wants to mess around its gonna happen. I can spy on her cell but she can get a prepaid. I can check her email and FB account, which mind you i do regularly but she can just make another. I cant keylog her comp at work. If someone wants to truely be deceiptful and hide things they can and will with ease, atleast for the short term. I can say i've discovered alot of my LB's and EN's and hers and we're working on those.
Posted By: 26years Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/13/10 01:24 AM
I am a permanent snooper. I can't see myself not snooping, questioning or something of that nature. It's now a part of who I am, shameful to say.
Posted By: lostnscared Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/13/10 02:50 AM
Originally Posted by 26years
I am a permanent snooper. I can't see myself not snooping, questioning or something of that nature. It's now a part of who I am, shameful to say.

I can agree. I've think i've always had it in me to some degree and now thats it been brought out its gonna be around to some degree forever. I've just realized that while many agree social network sites arent the best thing for ppl in committed relationships its not the cause, just an effect of something bigger. We need to work on the cause, and if that cant prevent these things from coming back then it wasnt meant to be.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/13/10 03:00 AM
Snooping is a rational response to a threat to marriage; it is a protective measure. It is like checking your house when you hear a noise in the night. That is not a character defect, but a rational response to a potential threat.

It is a VIRTUE to snoop and protect yourself. Affairs would be less likely to happen if more people snooped. Snooping is not something to be "ashamed" of, but something about which you should feel GOOD, because it protects you and your marriage.
Posted By: redhat Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/14/10 06:59 AM
lostnscared,

This is my take on snooping in M. You snoop on WW but not your W. Right now you might have to snoop until certain point when WW become W. You decide when.

I don't snoop in my current M. We use MB from the get go. We share all of our online access and everything else, nothing hidden and we even have familymap for everyone cellphones. ... snooping is dishonesty/disrespect in M. If I snoop it means my M is a lie. I would be committing dishonesty and disrespectful judgment. M to me is one mind, body, and soul ... become one.

-rh-
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/14/10 11:33 AM
Originally Posted by redhat
lostnscared,

This is my take on snooping in M. You snoop on WW but not your W. Right now you might have to snoop until certain point when WW become W. You decide when.

I don't snoop in my current M. We use MB from the get go. We share all of our online access and everything else, nothing hidden and we even have familymap for everyone cellphones. ... snooping is dishonesty/disrespect in M. If I snoop it means my M is a lie. I would be committing dishonesty and disrespectful judgment. M to me is one mind, body, and soul ... become one.

-rh-

Regardless of what your "take" is on snooping, redhat, did you happen to read Dr. Harley's take? He certainly doesn't believe that snooping in marriage is dishonesty or a disrespectful judgment. Since the Marriage Builders program is his, I tend to believe what he says carries the most weight, wouldn't you agree?

Here is what he says:

Originally Posted by Dr. Willard Harley
I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding?

Originally Posted by Dr. Willard Harley
There are two situations where I don't recommend radical honesty or the POJA: Abuse and infidelity. In the case of infidelity, if one spouse suspects the other, I have gone so far as to encourage hiring a private detective to help investigate, using spyware, keyloggers, putting a gps on the car, and all sorts of other snooping methods. If its found that the spouse is not guilty, I encourage revealing the snooping to the spouse. If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely.

lostnscared, I hope you will heed Dr. Harley's words. He is the founder of Marriage Builders, and has over 35 years experience as a clinical psychologist.

Mrs. W
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/14/10 01:25 PM
Of course snooping is not dishonest. It is dishonest to lie and cheat. It is not "dishonest" to catch someone lying and cheating. A married person has a right to know each and every thing their spouse is doing behind his back.

Snooping is not a "disrespectful judgment" in any sense of the word. In fact, Dr Harley himself recommends snooping..
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/14/10 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Of course snooping is not dishonest. It is dishonest to lie and cheat. It is not "dishonest" to catch someone lying and cheating. A married person has a right to know each and every thing their spouse is doing behind his back.

Snooping is not a "disrespectful judgment" in any sense of the word. In fact, Dr Harley himself recommends snooping..

And another thing...I'm willing to state that NOT snooping is short-sighted and lazy. It's easy to trust our spouse. All that requires is emotion. It's not as easy to trust, yet verify. That requires some effort. And yet that's what we should have been doing all along! Our M's in may cases get less maintenance and care than our cars do. Why?

Early into our R, I told DH, with some resentment, that he had 'sentenced me to a life of being a detective.' Well, duh! doh2 It's what I should have been doing all along, instead of indulging in complacency!

And my apologies for any weird spelling errors today - my reply screen is doing that funky, bouncing-around thing again. sigh
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/14/10 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by lostnscared
Been through alot in our 10 year marriage. Wife seems to wander every couple years or so. Best man at a wedding, old ex she met at a funeral. Facebook has been the killer, hid the account from me until i installed a keylogger on my comp. Read all the msg's to the ex, nothing super bad but it def shouldnt be in a healthy marriage. Talk of nude pics, wild sex that sort of stuff. We worked through that the last few weeks but i cant stop snooping

This poster would be IRRESPONSIBLE to stop snooping in view of a history as described in his first post. IRRESPONSIBLE. As Dr Harley has suggested in such cases, this WW should NEVER KNOW about his snooping tactics and he should snoop indefinitely.
Posted By: redhat Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/14/10 09:44 PM
Snooping on spouse is a dishonesty and it is allowed under condition stated on your own quote from him.

Quote
If its found that the spouse is not guilty, I encourage revealing the snooping to the spouse. If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely.

He did not say "must" like Mel and you had suggested. Those are personal choices where cookie cutters won't work.

I have my own take, can I ?. This is a discussion board. If I can't or not allowed, I would gladly leave.

I never said lostnscared shouldn't snoop on WW, he should and as long as he felt A is going on and still can't trust WW. I encouraged him to take a break and resume later. Let his WW earn his trust.

At the end lostnscared has to answer ... if WW never earned his trust, is this kind of M he want to keep ?.

Rant: This board has changed a lot.

-rh-
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/14/10 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by redhat
Snooping on spouse is a dishonesty and it is allowed under condition stated on your own quote from him.

RH, no it is not "dishonest" and Dr Harley does not say that anywhere. Nor is it a "disrespectful judgement" as you implied. Redhat, we showed Dr Harley's own quotes and no where does he call snooping a "lovebuster" as you did.

If you want to give board members such erroneous information, chances are you are going to get corrected by other posters who have actually read Dr Harley's books and articles. We are here to learn about Marriage Builders after all.

And yes, the board has changed alot. THANK GOD. More people today know about Marriage Builders. People actually teach Marriage Builders instead of the personal opinion du jour. Please note Dr. Harley�s mission statement at the top of each page:

Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others. When this happens you can expect some members to explain why their approach won't work, and why Marriage Builders� offers a better solution. There are many who are offended when that happens, but please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts.
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/14/10 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by redhat
Snooping on spouse is a dishonesty and it is allowed under condition stated on your own quote from him.

Quote
If its found that the spouse is not guilty, I encourage revealing the snooping to the spouse. If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely.

He did not say "must" like Mel and you had suggested. Those are personal choices where cookie cutters won't work.

I have my own take, can I ?. This is a discussion board. If I can't or not allowed, I would gladly leave.

I never said lostnscared shouldn't snoop on WW, he should and as long as he felt A is going on and still can't trust WW. I encouraged him to take a break and resume later. Let his WW earn his trust.

At the end lostnscared has to answer ... if WW never earned his trust, is this kind of M he want to keep ?.

Rant: This board has changed a lot.

-rh-

Um, redhat, lostnscared's wife HAS been found guilty of infidelity in the past - she has had multiple affairs - Please note what lostnscared said:

Originally Posted by lostnscared
Been through alot in our 10 year marriage. Wife seems to wander every couple years or so.

And what does Dr. Harley say when a spouse has been found guilty of infidelity?

Originally Posted by Dr. Willard Harley
If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely.

The implication of that being that there WILL and SHOULD be snooping methods in place.

Now, is there something specifically about Dr. Harley's words that you are having trouble understanding? I'd be happy to help you. smile

Mrs. W
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/14/10 10:45 PM
Would it sound nicer, then, to call this act of marital protection something else, redhat? Would that make it more palatable for you? Verification vs. snooping, perhaps? Does that sound better? But remember, it's the same thing. It is not dishonest. My H knows I frequently check his work email and his voice mails - he welcomes that because he knows it's confirmation of his fidelity. I welcome his scrutiny. We are one. So it doesn't matter.
Here's my epiphany, and I'll gladly go 'round with anyone who disagrees with it:
There should NEVER be an avenue for a spouse to potentially lead a double life. Two people became one the day they got married. Those aren't just pretty words and they aren't sexual. They are factual. Yet I (and all the other BS's on here) sat back and gave their spouse carte blanche to have a life that was not open to them - with FB, with private email addresses, with password-protected cell phones, with private schedules. What a recipe for disaster! I'd throw in the "duh" icon but I'm having technical trouble typing these responses as it is today, darn it.

Two became ONE. How did we miss the importance of this, the thing that happened the day we married? There should be NOTHING that one spouse knows about and the other one isn't privvy to! Nothing!

Unless, of course, it's a birthday surprise...
Posted By: redhat Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/14/10 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by MrsWondering
Now, is there something specifically about Dr. Harley's words that you are having trouble understanding? I'd be happy to help you. smile

Mrs. W


No thanks. I don't need preachers to interpret the Bible when I could get the answer directly wink. I could ask him directly on MB weekend forum or email him.

-rh-
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/14/10 10:55 PM


Or read and refer to what he has already written for public consumption, as this poster has:

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley
"So one of the most common clues of an affair is an unwillingness to let a spouse investigate all aspects of life. If two lives are necessary for an affair, and if a spouse is curious enough, the secret second life is relatively easy to discover. Difficulty in getting a spouse to talk about events of the day can be a sign of trying to hide the second life.

One of the most common smoke-screens used by unfaithful spouses is to express shock that their spouse would be so distrusting as to ask questions about their secret second life. They try to make it seem as if such questions are an affront to their dignity, and a sign of incredible disrespect. They figure that the best defense is a good offense, and so they try to make their spouses feel guilty about asking too many questions.

I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding?
Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?
Posted By: redhat Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/14/10 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Or read and refer to what he has already written for public consumption, as this poster has:

You have missed the point as the person post to me too. That is on Coping with infidelity and how A should end. Snoop all you can w/ WW. I absolutely agree on this. There is nothing on my thread states otherwise.

The issue here "Should we have to snoop forever in M ?" Mrs.W & others said absolutely. dr. Harley quoted as "encourage". I got 2x4 because it as well as calling snoop is dishonest in M. I will clear it on my own with the higher up.

I don't want to keep this thread a way from lostnscared.

-rh-
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/15/10 12:08 AM
Originally Posted by redhat
You have missed the point as the person post to me too. That is on Coping with infidelity and how A should end. Snoop all you can w/ WW. I absolutely agree on this. There is nothing on my thread states otherwise.

No, Dr Harley does not say just with "WW," he says with all spouses. Read the quote. Dr Harley DOES encourage snooping in ALL marriages � he does not limit it to marriages where there has been adultery:

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding?
here

And again here:

Quote
There are two situations where I don't recommend radical honesty or the POJA: Abuse and infidelity. In the case of infidelity, if one spouse suspects the other, I have gone so far as to encourage hiring a private detective to help investigate, using spyware, keyloggers, putting a gps on the car, and all sorts of other snooping methods. If its found that the spouse is not guilty, I encourage revealing the snooping to the spouse. If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely.

Originally Posted by redhat
I don't snoop in my current M. We use MB from the get go. We share all of our online access and everything else, nothing hidden and we even have familymap for everyone cellphones. ... snooping is dishonesty/disrespect in M. If I snoop it means my M is a lie. I would be committing dishonesty and disrespectful judgment.

Nowhere does Dr Harley say that snooping is dishonesty or a �disrespectful judgment.� It most certainly is not.
Posted By: lostnscared Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/15/10 11:27 PM
My 2 cents mean very little in this discussion at this point but here we go. I dont want to snoop, anytime i snoop i feel guilty because at the point im driven to snoop i feel insecure. Are those insecurities in me or from her. If they're from me, even if its because of her past actions i shouldn't hold that against her. I'm not sure how you guys are prior to a snoop but its almost like i expect to find something, this will be the big one. Of all the times i've snooped in 10 years, and trust me its been alot i've found something unnerving like 3 times. I cant count the number of needless fights over something trivial i've found that my mind has made out to be the smoking gun. I can guarantee with 100% certainty that is a huge LB in my marriage. So i guess my point being, which im not even sure i remember where i was going, at what point does snooping become an unhealthy habit?

No matter how good of a job you think your doing the OS, if they are that dedicated to leading a second life, can be 5 steps ahead of you with hidden accounts, secret cell phones. Lol so i rambled and probably just confused a bunch of ppl, it theres anything im bad at its putting my thoughts into text.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/15/10 11:45 PM
Quote
Are those insecurities in me or from her. If they're from me, even if its because of her past actions i shouldn't hold that against her.

That is ridiculous, ls. What is not in the past is your TRUST of her. You should not trust her, that would be insane. She has proven time and time again that she is not trustworthy so the only thing you would achieve by not snooping is leaving your self wide open and unprotected. What has she ever done to gain your trust again? Trust is not an entitlement, it has to be earned.

LS, the problem is not you and its not snooping, it is that you have a sneaky, dangerous serial cheater wife who harms you behind your back. The only time that snooping is a lovebuster is if you are snooping on someone who has something to hide. It would never be a lovebuster to a person otherwise. For example, if my H were snooping on me, I would do my best to make sure I was as transparent as possible and was not doing anything to make him uneasy. That is what a normal spouse does. Only someone who has something to hide gets upset when you snoop.

A spouse who gets upset at snooping will also try to blame her anger ON HER SPOUSE to deflect from herself. It is a game called gaslighting. Your insecurity is a rational reaction to a spouse who has ABUSED you in the past. She has had numerous affairs, so your instincts telling you to snoop are very rational.

Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley
"So one of the most common clues of an affair is an unwillingness to let a spouse investigate all aspects of life. If two lives are necessary for an affair, and if a spouse is curious enough, the secret second life is relatively easy to discover. Difficulty in getting a spouse to talk about events of the day can be a sign of trying to hide the second life.

One of the most common smoke-screens used by unfaithful spouses is to express shock that their spouse would be so distrusting as to ask questions about their secret second life. They try to make it seem as if such questions are an affront to their dignity, and a sign of incredible disrespect. They figure that the best defense is a good offense, and so they try to make their spouses feel guilty about asking too many questions.

I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding?�
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/15/10 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by lostnscared
My 2 cents mean very little in this discussion at this point but here we go. I dont want to snoop, anytime i snoop i feel guilty because at the point im driven to snoop i feel insecure. Are those insecurities in me or from her. If they're from me, even if its because of her past actions i shouldn't hold that against her. I'm not sure how you guys are prior to a snoop but its almost like i expect to find something, this will be the big one. Of all the times i've snooped in 10 years, and trust me its been alot i've found something unnerving like 3 times. I cant count the number of needless fights over something trivial i've found that my mind has made out to be the smoking gun. I can guarantee with 100% certainty that is a huge LB in my marriage. So i guess my point being, which im not even sure i remember where i was going, at what point does snooping become an unhealthy habit?

No matter how good of a job you think your doing the OS, if they are that dedicated to leading a second life, can be 5 steps ahead of you with hidden accounts, secret cell phones. Lol so i rambled and probably just confused a bunch of ppl, it theres anything im bad at its putting my thoughts into text.

Dear, dear lostnscared...

It isn't your snooping that is unhealthy - it's the fact that you are living with someone who refuses to be open and honest that is unhealthy - In other words, SHE is the unhealthy one!

As you've been told, people who have nothing to hide, hide nothing...It is UNHEALTHY to have SECRECY in a marriage, and THAT is what your wife wants and tries to maintain. The problem here is that your wife doesn't WANT you to snoop - WHY? Because she has things to hide!

Married couples are to live lives of transparency - There is NOTHING that is none of my husband's business and vice versa - We are ONE, and therefore are open books to each other - that is how it is supposed to be.

We both have all of each other's passwords - our accounts are linked - so we share the same password as a matter of fact. We live our lives as though the other is watching constantly - and we very well could be - checks and balances you know. Each of us desires accountability to the other - it keeps our marriage - something we value greatly - SAFE...

Unless and until your wife gets onboard with that mindset, I'm sorry to tell you that you are NOT safe.

Mrs. W

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/15/10 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by lostnscared
. I cant count the number of needless fights over something trivial i've found that my mind has made out to be the smoking gun.

She is probably very good at beating you down and manipulating you into silence. Why else would a fight ensue over something "trivial?" If I found something on my husband's computer that made me suspicious, it would never lead to a fight. Rather, he would explain it.

I suspect your wife has been gaslighting you so long that you no longer have any memory of normal. You are now wondering if YOU are the messed up one, when it is SHE who is messed up.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/16/10 12:14 AM
ls, I have never strayed. My H has total access to EVERY facet of my life. I don't care - I have nothing to hide. And he always should have! Protection of your M means you should have oversight of the other half of your SELF. Why would you accept less access to half of your SELF? You married and became one!
Posted By: lostnscared Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/16/10 12:22 AM
I understand what your all saying but i dont want to snoop anymore, its physically and emotionally exhausting. I still have the keylogger on the comp, shes been truthful before ive asked who she talked to and what about. I seriously dont want to live this life of OMG she went to get a shower i gotta check her phone. I've decided that shes got one last chance and im gonna do my best to allow her to prove she means it or doesnt. No matter what im gonna find out whats goin on whether its today or 5 months later. If she cant be honest from here on out then she can take a leave of absence.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/16/10 12:26 AM
Originally Posted by lostnscared
I understand what your all saying but i dont want to snoop anymore, its physically and emotionally exhausting. I still have the keylogger on the comp, shes been truthful before ive asked who she talked to and what about. I seriously dont want to live this life of OMG she went to get a shower i gotta check her phone. I've decided that shes got one last chance and im gonna do my best to allow her to prove she means it or doesnt. No matter what im gonna find out whats goin on whether its today or 5 months later. If she cant be honest from here on out then she can take a leave of absence.

You're taking the easy way out.Good luck with that.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/17/10 09:50 PM
Have you ever verified in front of her?

Sure can be exhausting, emotionally and physically. Can be like an obsession, too. If you've been doing it over ten years, hiding your snooping, then part of what you're feeling is an adrenaline release...which can get you into a loop of surge and exhaustion.

I remember this well...and what I did was switch to verifying in front of my WH, who then became a FWH. I would own my triggers...my gut feeling from something he said or body language/facial expression. I would say "I'm checking your phone" and then APPRECIATE him standing or sitting there as I did.

I did it in the car, the kitchen...and over time, as NC was kept in place, I tapered off...set a schedule of doing so once a month...and would hold myself to it whether I felt the gut feeling or not.

In this way, we became a team for our boundaries...and turns out, three years later, he told him how much it helped him to not break NC...because we did this...

Now it's almost six years later...I recently checked his cellphone records online because of a niggling feeling. Came up clean. Found out, instead of a person, it was a growing resentment in him sending up the flag. That's catching part of the formula for an affair way early.

How did your W amend and repair the damage from her EAs to you, herself and The Marriage? Did she put in extraordinary precautions, ask you to help her keep new boundaries, so that she doesn't repeat and repeat? Maybe what you really want now is for her to do the work she hasn't...daily apologies...cutting off Facebook in totality...as a consequence?

Formulate what you really need from her to make your marriage affair-proof, the road to redemption and ask for it. That's your part.

LA
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/17/10 10:11 PM
lostscared, your instincts to snoop will be in direct correlation to the trust she establishes with you. And that may not be very much with a serial cheater. Your instincts may - rightly - direct you to snoop like a bloodhound every day. And your instincts would be RIGHT if living with a serial cheater.

You might to accept the fact that snooping is the price you have to pay to stay in such a marriage. Because not snooping is going to cause you more trouble than snooping.

In my marriage, snooping did more to RECOVER my marriage than anything else because I had INDEPENDENT reassurance that my husband was being trustworthy. It allowed me to RELAX. Of course, my H had nothing to hide.

The key to rebuilding trust, as LA mentioned, is to establish extraordinary precautions IN ADDITION TO SNOOPING. And by snooping, I mean in ways that she does not know about.

She should NEVER know your methods, lest it neutralizes your protection.
Posted By: schoolbus Re: Cant stop snooping - 03/18/10 12:08 AM

Dear lost,

I have to use your words to answer you logically. I'm going to use a little analytical technique to get you to think about what YOU are saying to get to the heart of the problem in your marriage. It has nothing to do with what you think is the problem - snooping. I has everything to do with something else. I'm in red, your words are black.




My 2 cents mean very little in this discussion at this point but here we go. I dont want to snoop, anytime i snoop i feel guilty because at the point im driven to snoop i feel insecure.The word "guilty" actually means that the person feeling guilt has done something wrong, and feels guilt for that wrongdoing. Yet you attach guilt to "insecurity". You should probably reevaluate this, because my guess is that you feel GUILT because your WW has chastised you for snooping, and this makes you feel GUILT because being chastised makes you feel as though you have done something WRONG. Understand in the depths of your soul that this is a technique used by waywards to evoke the exact feeling you have - guilt - in order to deflect the blame for the problems in the relationship onto the INNOCENT PARTY (that's you - the betrayed spouse). In this case, she has done quite an effective job. In fact, you are now feeling BOTH guilt AND insecurity - she is quite an effective manipulator, don't you think?

Are those insecurities in me or from her. I think I answered this one. If they're from me, even if its because of her past actions i shouldn't hold that against her. Au contraire. By every means you should hold it against her, because she has not done anything to change her behavior. Moreover, she has continued and even made a successful career of making YOU the guilty party in the marriage. I'm not sure how you guys are prior to a snoop but its almost like i expect to find something, this will be the big one. Of all the times i've snooped in 10 years, and trust me its been alot i've found something unnerving like 3 times. Three times? I think in a SECURE marriage, you would NEVER FIND ANYTHING. You are nervous because of her history! I might add, she has probably gotten quite adept at COVERING HER TRACKS because she knows you snoop. Have you ever considered this? I cant count the number of needless fights over something trivial i've found that my mind has made out to be the smoking gun. Or that was NOT TRIVIAL, and that she LIED and GASLIGHTED you about. Give that some consideration, because it is likely FACT. I can guarantee with 100% certainty that is a huge LB in my marriage. Probably a huge LB, because she is then, once again, on notice that she has to cover her cheating ways and is not allowed to act like a single woman. Gee, you are raining on her parade and she doesn't like it. I would say, "ITTY-BOO" and then have a discussion about secrecy. So i guess my point being, which im not even sure i remember where i was going, at what point does snooping become an unhealthy habit? When you are a stalker, when the spouse has given no reason for you to suspect unfaithful behavior, when she isn't talking about trading her nude photos with other men...

No matter how good of a job you think your doing the OS, if they are that dedicated to leading a second life, can be 5 steps ahead of you with hidden accounts, secret cell phones. True enough. Then again, if you are in a marriage that is fulfilling, one based on honesty and the feeding and filling of each other's emotional needs, where the two of you spend quality time in mutually enjoyable experiences during the week, and you have built a trusting and trustworthy relationship together with goals and a solid foundation, why would they? And if you have in place Extraordinary Precautions, the likelihood is even less... Lol so i rambled and probably just confused a bunch of ppl, it theres anything im bad at its putting my thoughts into text. In your case, get a keylogger. Check it every other day or so. And call the Harleys. You and your wife need some help, because you are in a cycle where your wife is gaslighting you, and your instincts are right on the money - don't ignore them.
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