Paycheck direct deposited in bank last night... got an email today saying I was out of money. Couldn't figure out why so looked it up. My wife, who had moved out of the house in Nov because she was looking on adult sex sites for 'something on the side to make her feel alive', but was still very involved together, had taken 96% of my check, transfered it to her account, then to another account.

THAT'S how I found out she wanted a divorce. After I emailed her asking what was going on, she replied in an email she wanted a divorce.

Heh... if it wasn't so like her... I would be shocked.

Married almost 4 years (July) 2nd marriage for both. Should have annulled it after honeymoon in all honesty, because we never had a marriage of any sort other than rings. I have written on here before and worked to do MB principles, which I truly believe in. But even though theorectially one can save a marriage... one can't MAKE a marriage. We were in counseling on Tuesday evening. She kissed me on the cheek when she left. I thought it was odd at the time, but didn't think much of it. Now I think it was a kiss Goodbye.

Not really worried about the divorce. It breaks my heart, because I truly love her. And she loves me, I do believe that. However, she has rarely done anything to fulfill my needs since marriage. And given that fact, I feel somewhat at peace with this whole thing. I don't know that I could have done it myself. I came from a family where you worked hard, and fought through. She came from a family where you took everything you could get then ran. This is what she did, but that is OK. If it helps her cope, it is OK. I love her girls... MY girls... I have known them for 7 years and they call me Dad. My boys are heartbroken. But that is how things go sometimes.

I would like to be saying that I want my marriage back. But in all honesty, I never had a marriage with her. That is the saddest part of all. I just couldn't get her to engage with me in anything. Over the course of our almost 4 year marriage, I bet we had fewer than 3 actual discussions about our marriage. Although, we had trouble from day 1. We couldn't talk.

It breaks my heart, because I would have and still would do anything to help her. I always loved her... I just couldn't give her whatever it was she needed and she wouldn't give me what I needed.

I hope I can learn from this... because I didn't learn the first time.

Click on the notify button that is part of your post. Ask the moderators to move your thread to Surviving an Affair. You need some help and that is where you will find it until the actual divorce. Lots going on with you.

Larry

And most definitely take her off your bank account!

Sorry you've had this bomb dropped on you.

Is there an OM?

Also wondering, has you wife suffered from depression and/or bipolar? She sounds just like my WH (who I believe has bipolar), just extremely EMPTY and self-centered.

The difference between a regular wayward spouse (who sufferes from temporary insanity due to the affair) and a spouse with on-going mental illness is that the 'fog-like behaviors' have been there off and on throughout the relationship, without the explanation of an affair.

I agree, get her off your bank account and get a lawyer asap!

CFIO (kinda sounds like an executive position within a Fortune 500 company....):

She has declared war, now time to fully engage. Taking 96% of your paycheck is inconsiderate, unfair, and well, okay I'll say it, downright evil.

So hit back. I don't know what she needs FROM YOU, but whatever it is, it's gone. Health care coverage? Buh-bye. Car insurance. See ya later. Car not in HER name? Hasta la vista, baby.

She did something cruel and incredibly insensitive to you. If that's the way she wants to play, get used to the rules.

It's hard to gauge your overall sitch, but from what I gather, this M never truly planted roots.

Sorry that you're here. There are lots of folks that have various degrees of experience. Sure, things can be slow on the weekends, but support and insight can still be found.

Protect yourself. NOW. I take it this will NOT be her last salvo.....

TB

It aggravates me to see her do things in this manner. She played both me and the counselor. He was shocked when I told him, not surprised, but shocked. He actually fell back into his seat.

I have never held money over her, as a subpoena will show. She has so little respect for herself, that she simply has no respect for anyone else as well. This is another reason why I am not torn completely from this occurrance. Her lack of respect for me, my boys, my family, and others in general has repeatedly shown over the last 4 years. But truthfully, I would have never guessed she would act like this in this manner. She went through my house, treating it like it was a shopping center, while I was at work Friday. She basically took whatever she wanted. This was after she had already done something similar in November, when I asked her to move out. She went through EVERYTHING I owned, personal or family. I don't care, because I have never hidden a single thing or lied about anything to her. But for her to act like this still hurts.

I don't care about the stuff. I can replace it with an afternoon's worth of work. But the fact that she acted like I cheated and I lied and I decided to divorce her. Projection of her own actions on others has always been a problem for her. She suspects everyone else of doing what SHE is doing. I have been blamed COUNTLESS times of 'potentially having an affair'.

Truthfully, I just want this sad woman to be happy, but away from me. I feel more like I am watching a drug addict at the end of his addiction, just going deeper and deeper, unable to see what everyone else sees around him. She lies to all her friends, and although, I believe they are smart enough to see things somewhat more clearly than she leads, it still bothers me that they have NO CHANCE to help her, because she twists and turns the facts so much, that if even HALF of what she said was true, I should probably be locked up. The truth is, however, that I have NEVER done ANYTHING REMOTELY like she has recently stated, but it certainly makes her 'story' and 'choice' seem more reasonable to others.

I think the betrayal of her affair was one thing... but THIS is a betrayal of a whole different sort. Her affair was about HER. THIS is a betrayal of my character. The one thing I hold dear and would not go against. For her to be unable to honor even that fact, given all I have done to help her, even after her affair and online sex crap, and after she moved out. It just appalls me.

Hopefully you have changed the locks, etc. Start locking up your stuff and your heart. You have been used. And that is a truly awful feeling after 4 years or more of emotional investment.

Best to have no mercy in court. Get your stuff back, if possible. The reason is simple: consequences. Until consequences bite her where she lives, she is going to just go down the road making fools of guys just like you.

Larry

You know... I think you are right. I gave everything to her and she did this in this fashion. I have alot of time and money to battle and given this and her history, I am of the mind to push back pretty hard.

I laid down for my first wife, because she was holding my children over my head as a threat of going for full custody. I paid for half time and shared custody.

However my current wife has nothing I want or need other than the ring I gave her. I designed it and had it made. I emailed her about exchanging our rings, she didn't email me back. She knows that the ring has alot of meaning to me, heh... I had my brand built into its structure. She is going to want it, because it is worth quite a bit. But she also knows that I want it back.

I can certainly stir up alot of discomfort for her should I chose to do so. She could have been adult, but she chose this way to do things. If she gives me grief or pushback, then I think that I will just push a few buttons on a couple people and we will see how badly she wants to continue. I would have treated her civilly had she simply asked for a divorce in a respectful manner. Grabbing money and an email just doesn't cut it in my book.

I have nothing to lose in this. I have a prenup. She, however, has alot to lose.

T... if you read this, you should really think about what you are doing and how you go about it. I don't want a battle, but you know that I laid down before for C and I told you I shouldn't have. You have no such hold over me. Give me the ring back. I will pay you the money. We won't incur huge lawyer bills and you can just walk away. Push me in any way, and I will fight alot harder. You know I don't care about the money... I am all about the principle of the situation. You pretend I am so bad... if you push me, I will show you just how tough I can be.

What a completely crappy way to go about this T. I would have given you anything and everything, because I loved you and the girls. I DID give you EVERYTHING I could. Never once complained about lack of CS paid by the girls father's. Never ONCE complained about paying for everything for all three of you for the last 5 years. THAT is what a husband and father does. Then you do this... you showed your true self. And although I wouldn't be my true self IF I fight, I can certainly be a hardass if required.

Good.

You were a good catch.

Then the living.

She thought she deserved better; spoiled.

So the rotten side got exposed; she hated gratitude.

She liked entitlement. Made her feel better about herself

Do what you have to do to insure your self respect.

Larry

I congratulate you for having the stones.

So many BHs just roll over...I get tired of repeating to 2325782375 million BHs to not leave their house, etc.

You were smart to get a prenup. Frankly, I do believe that it would be quite sensible a thing for a man to require me myself to sign, or any woman, if his assets are substantial enough. Though I would (if he wanted me as a SAHW) demand some level of maintenance for a short while should divorce occur.

The thing is... she is vindictive. THAT is what everything almost during out marriage is about. If she didn't like something, she wouldn't talk about it, she would retaliate in some manner. THAT is what this household shopping spree was all about.

She is angry over the divorce, even though she asked for it and she knows all she had to do to avoid it was really join in and work. That isn't the point. Everything in her life is the fault of someone else or how someone else has/is treating her. Of course, in divorce I am the main problem. But I believe deep down under the hurt and anger, she realizes that I am NOT who she pretends I am and she can't handle that I am a different person than who she treats me as, because it means SHE is a different person than who she thinks she IS.

THIS is the reason we are getting divorced in a nutshell. When we met, she put on a 'great facade' of who I wanted in my life. I was as up front and honest about my needs and desires and in essence 'told her who I wanted' so she gave it too me. When all that stopped, literally on our honeymoon (actually just a bit after I asked her to marry me, but I didn't recognize it at the time) I kept thinking I had to work to get things back to where they were... help her get back to the REAL her. Not recognizing that she was like a chameleon, as our counselor stated, and in all actuallity THIS was the real her, and the other was fake.

I just kept thinking that this person who I was living with, COULDN'T be the person I fell in love with. And that it was my duty to stick with her despite everything I saw on a daily basis, to the contrary. I just kept thinking "If I love her strong enough, she will eventually love me back." So I did everything I could, but anytime I would try to talk about us, it would degrade into an argument. She WOULD NOT talk about anything in which she might be even remotely perceived as lacking, ie unmet ENs, or at fault, ie LIES. Her best defense was to become extremely furious and go on the offense. For a year and a half I dealt with that, and she taught me to NOT try to talk about things. Everything I did, she perceived as ME being mean.

NOW I think she realizes that I am NOT that person, and have Never been, but she can't allow that into her mind on the surface. She has to make me out to be the bad guy, so she makes up alot of NEW lies about me being aggressive towards her and so she is 'afraid'. These are all NEW things and even for her, I have never been aggressive in the lies. But NOW, they serve a purpose of avoidance. Gives her a 'reason' to not tell me face to face she wanted a divorce. To be so incredibly disrespectful, as to take the money and run. It eases the action in her mind, and in her mind makes it more believable as being appropriate with her friends and family. This makes it convenient for her in that she then doesn't have to actually TALK to the person she is lying to face to face. She can compartmentalize her life, and I can serve the purpose as the [censored] who caused all her problems. OHH>>.... it infuriates and makes me cry at the same time. She has NO CONCEPT of true love.

Her family KNOWS what she is like. They might support her because she is family, but they KNOW what she is like, and it kills her to not be able to lie to them, and have them swallow it. I have proven myself to them over the years, so while I am sure they will give her 'lip service' I am confident they will know that what she is saying just doesn't add up with what they know about us both.

The shopping spree was pure vindictiveness. She went through the house, and took things she wanted. She brought some things with her when she moved in, and I have no problem with that. Actually, I don't have a problem with much of what she took, but it is the way in which she did it which is the problem. I don't even know what I no longer have until I go to use it and see that it is gone. I think she even took the FLYSWATTER. She took gifts she had given me and she took cards she had given me. She tore up all the cards and letters I gave her and threw all the pieces behind the dresser in our room.

But like I said... I don't care about the stuff... I care about how she went about TAKING the stuff. It will be a pain to replace, simply because I don't know what ISN'T there until I go to use it.

It just breaks my heart. The disrespect. That above all breaks my heart. She is so untrustworthy and she simply can't believe that there are people different from her.

On Tuesday at counseling, we talked about our lack of trust. I FINALLY got to actually address it, and it was just too much for her to bear I believe. She couldn't deal with it, because she couldn't say anything about it. She would lie to me KNOWING I knew the truth, but she simply couldn't NOT LIE. I called her on it, and I think the pressure of living up to what she did and how she is, was too much to bear. She keeps telling people, myself included, that we just don't know her, that she is such a kind, gentle, and loving person. I think SHE believes that in herself which perhaps is the MAIN PROBLEM OF ALL. She believes something about herself which is completely UNTRUE, and doesn't understand why the world doesn't treat her in the kind, gentle way rather than the lying cheating way. She just doesn't understand that if she IS kind, gentle, and loving, she covers it up with alot of self centeredness, vindictiveness, and agressive anger. THAT is the person she shows the world and THAT is the person the world sees and interacts with.

She blew up during the counseling session FINALLY. The real person who I was married to and knew very well, showed up. Up to that point, in 3 sessions, she had been quiet. The counselor was thinking that MY interpretation was skewed and that MY description of her actions were what was wrong. He said "I think she has a voice... but she can't use it around you." I thought... heh... she uses it PLENTY, but she can pretend she is someone else for a while. Finally when we were talking about the lies and mistrust, she blew... JUST LIKE I SAID SHE DID to him before. He was shocked then as well. She started yelling and cursing and I was just sitting there trying to tell my view of a situation. But when it was OBVIOUS, that not only what she had JUST said was a lie, but that what we were talking about previously had ALSO been lies, I think she finally realized that it was too much work to be honest. THAT is why she wants the divorce... she doesn't want to own up to being honest and she simply doesn't have the trust and love to see that short term pain would be followed by long term LOVE. She never had that... she was only as good as her last lie. She would NOT say 'sorry'. She told me one time "I only say sorry when I REALLY mean it." Which to me says that all the times she DIDN'T say 'sorry'... she REALLY meant to hurt me or my family.

I feel so badly for her though. Because of all the people, I really did love her in spite of knowing how she was at the end. Even though I couldn't see this early, I learned, but I was powerless to do anything about it. I look at her and I feel the anger and pain. I see the saddness... and I believe there is a little girl inside her who really just wants to trust and be loved. I really believe that. But she has put up such a facade of lies, walls of defense, and aggressive attacks to repel, that there is no way to get to that person inside.

She thinks she is 'protecting and providing for' her girls at all costs. She is completely ignorant of the fact that the BEST thing she could EVER have provided for the girls... was a loving, giving marriage to her husband. Her mother had a horrible marriage to an alcoholic while she grew up. So she has no concept about how marriage really should be, and she treated me like I was a drunk. She just doesn't understand how much she threw away for both herself and her daughters. She doesn't understand that she is condemning those wonderful little girls to a similar fate, because it is unlikely that they will learn to treat their husbands and families any differently than she was treated growing up, and that she treats me and any who come after me. She doesn't realize what she had right in her hands... TRYING TO STAY IN HER HANDS AT ALL COSTS... and she just turned them up and dumped me and my boys out. Our children LOVE one another. My boys are heartbroken. I have no idea how I am going to interact with the girls from here on out. I just am clueless. All I can see is what 'could have been' right now. The waste simply floors me.

I am saddened... because I would have been there for her if she could have just kept working. I would have loved her... if she could have learned to love herself. I would have forgiven her... had she simply asked.

She is terrified that I will, I believe. She had a friend who cheated on her husband. Her husband had a sister who was an attorney and they just went to town on the woman.

I don't have any family attorneys... but I do have money.

And I asked for the prenup and I had the provisions put in place to take care of her afterwards, because I DIDN'T want her feeling as though I could dump her on the side of the road and go on. I did that... she didn't ask for that. But it didn't work. She still feels as though she is just the poor unfortunate wife who is getting dumped.

The funny thing is... in MY world... I would have worked like CRAZY to keep what I had. It seems as though, she has almost a 'self defeating or self destructive' personality disorder. She gets something good... and then treats it so poorly that it breaks. In her position I would have been working day and night to improve our marriage. I did it from MY point as husband with really nothing to loose OTHER than the marriage and the love of her little girls. She loses the marriage, security, and a father for her children who really loves them. Our worlds just never existed together. She just sees the world so differently than I do which is the reason we could never see eye to eye and heart to heart.

Maybe an infatuation junkie. Or, if she is pretty, needs admiration/adoration. Fogged out for sure.

Larry

I am curious.
How long was your courtship before marriage?

CFIO,

You need to get in touch with your credit card companies


TODAY

and get her name off of them

and change the numbers.

Her shopping spree will not only include your house.



Wait for it.


If she has any of your personal information, she will try to open new accounts. Do not believe otherwise. Lock up your identity today, because she will do this if you don't take care of it. Use an identity theft protection service, because this type of person who is vindictive will go for it as soon as she gets the idea. She will sign you up on porn sites for monthly fees, she will do all kinds of things to get back at you. Make sure you are covered.


How do I know this?

My FIL's ex-wife....she went house-shopping through his house. Took EVERYTHING. Left him on a Friday without warning. Took every single stick of furniture, including the beds of the children who were being left behind. She cleaned out the bank accounts (more than once), until Pop was able to get the bank to stop letting her do that - and at the time it took lots of legal paperwork and lawyer fees to stop her. She ended up taking the college funds of the two children from Pop's first marriage and she never cared. Moving on to her affair partner's house was as easy as pie for her, she was married within virtual moments of the divorce. The new man was richer.

And, for the record, Pop and this particular woman? They started this marriage as an affair.



Pop had left his first wife for this "peach". When the divorce from OW was obviously on the horizon, Pop showed back up on the porchsteps of his first wife. He begged for mercy.

His first wife, who had been in PLAN A for EIGHT YEARS, let him in.

They remarried, and lived happily ever after for over 40 more years, until his recent death about a year and a half ago.

True story.

SB- At the end of this last post, I had tears in my eyes and I said, "Wow." Thanx

CFIO,

I agree with SB. Run a credit report on yourself to find any unauthorized accounts and consider putting a lock on your credit.

Sorry that your WW has put you in this unfortunate situation. Stay strong.

--ElCamino72

We dated for two years and were together for about 10 more months after I asked her to marry me. So courtship was just under 3 years.

I repeatedly ignored what I saw, because I simply kept thinking that what I HAD SEEN was who was real... NOT who I WAS SEEING.

I take full responsibility. I knew she was trouble, but wouldn't allow myself to walk away. Truthfully, and I know this might sound odd on Easter Sunday, but... I COULDN'T walk away. I had fallen in love with her and especially her girls. I saw the 'need' in them for someone stable and loving. I knew my desire to help and protect. I had the means, desire, and ability. And I FELT like I would be a complete CAD if I were to walk out on them. I felt like they were 'mine' and to break up would have been the same as 'leaving' my family. I felt that God was standing behind me with his arms crossed thinking... "OK CFIO... what are you going to do?" I know it might sound absurd... but this is EXACLY how I felt. I WANTED to help... I WANTED to love... I wanted to BE loved... but I felt guilty and compelled to stay as well. I really wanted to make a difference in their lives, and perhaps regain some self worth as well (wrong thinking I know now), but my brain KNEW I should go.

This might sound altruistic... but I really don't know what it was. It WAS me mimicing my mother, who would lay down in the road, for people to step on to keep from getting their shoes muddy. I grew up in a loving, kind, warm, helpful smalltown environment. NO BODY in my family EVER had been divorced. We all helped, encouraged, and supported one another in good times and in bad. Even the 'black sheep' of the family shared our 'family values'. I just didn't realize this type of stuff was 'real' in the world. CERTAINLY NOT in MY world.

My first wife left while in the throws of 4 simultaneous affairs. It broke me in half. We divorced and I essentially waited for about a year to date, although I had every Tom, [censored] and Susie trying to set me up with someone. When I started dating, it was a whirlwind. I dated so many women ONCE, but only one more than once. I knew what I wanted, and knew what I DIDN'T want even MORE. I met my wife... and the world stopped. She was beautiful, funny, and kind. She was devoted to her girls and 'appeared' to be with it. But I think that I felt she needed rescueing. I didn't think it 'out front' but in the back of my mind, I think I thought about it. I believe I was looking for someone who 'needed' me... who would be 'safe' and who I could be SO GOOD TO that she would love me and never leave. I think, in essence, I HOPED I would be too good to leave, given that I had been crushed a few years before.

She seemed to fit the bill perfectly. I was open and honest and very forthright. I told her exactly what I was looking for in a relationship, thinking I was doing 'right' but in my current belief, I was doing it WRONG. Instead of seeing whether SHE WAS the person I wanted to be with, I told her who I wanted to be with, and she then put on those trappings and BECAME who I wanted. We dated for about 6 months and things began to slide. I asked for some time separated, and it crushed her. She couldn't give me the time. She came over to my house one night, and I sat there, on the floor in front of the fire, and explained why I felt the way I did. I told her, that it was important to me that my wife be religious, and she was not. And that my wife have the primary caretaker role of our house ie be able to cook for our family, so that I could be the provider. She didn't cook hardly at all. She then began going to church with me and began cooking. She is NOW and excellent cook, and she truly loves it. However, she has never joined in Church. She goes, but it feels half-heartedly and certainly doesn't seem to incorporate the thoughts into her relations with me.

But see... she 'changed' and I think I thought that... OK... she 'changed' this. So we are OK. But when things began going 'bad' I think she resented me. I never sat out to change her, just to be honest with what and who I WANTED. She should have said 'that isn't me' but instead she put on the facade and 'changed'. However, she began taking other things away. The vindictivness began showing up more and more. When ENs began to remain unmet, and I would try to talk about them, she would remove MORE from them. If I wanted to address sex, she quit wearing lingerie. When I talked about lingerie, she began getting headaches. In fact... almost everytime we would go out for a romantic dinner, at desert or as we walked to the car she would say "Oh man... I am getting a headache." or "Oh.... I am SOOOoooooo tired." Giving me the signal that there was NO SEX TONIGHT so don't even go there. I just felt worse and worse with each week/month that went by. Trying to address it was to know that things would only get worse.

THEN... I get an anonymous letter at work, saying she is having an affair with her friend's brother in law and that she rented a house. This was last spring. Everything went downhill from there... and STILL MY OWN SICKNESS kept me thinking that if I just did better... she would love me. Then about 2 months ago I received more information, things I never wanted to see. I thought... She was just doing this because she doesn't understand love. CFIO... you haven't done enough good enough to help her to understand love. CFIO... you love those girls and they need you to succeed, so buck it up and work HARDER. Be BETTER. Do BETTER. If YOU were giving her what she needed, she wouldn't be going elsewhere. I got her to fill out the ENs questionaire... she reluctantly did so, and basically it came down to 'I am mean' but otherwise, I did pretty much everything she wanted.

THIS is an example of what she felt was 'mean'. Asking the girls to get up and turn off the lights they had left on. Asking her to please leave my tape and stapler on my desk after they used them, because I needed them as well. But here is one that really blew me away, and that helps me to see that our worlds just really never cross. Since we can't talk, if we have a problem or even perceive there might be a problem, we would typically shut down. We would be cordial, but not nice or loving or interactive towards one another. USUALLY it goes on for a day or two and then I (CFIO) will break down and regardless of what I think the issue was about, I will try to set things right by breaking the ice and loving her. No matter what or who was the real culprit, I was always the one who had to 'apologize'. Now... if I had done something, I would have apologized immediately, so it was rare that these long, cold shoulders, were because of me. But they happened often.

We were at church one Sunday, about 2-3 days into a cold shoulder episode. I don't even remember what it was about. We were sitting, side by side in church and I was listening to the sermon. I began thinking about how I Loved her, and hated acting like this. So I put my hand on her leg, in a loving way. Just to show her I loved her. After about 3-4 minutes I was 'feeling good' my heart felt good with my touching her. I was feeling better because I had 'had a change of heart' so to speak. I really felt love for her. I turned and smiled at her. She turned her head and had the deadest, coldest, most contemptuous look in her eyes I have ever seen. Her face was emotionless but her eyes were hatefilled. I kept smiling... not sure I was seeing what I was really seeing, and she just kept the cold dead stare eating at me. I looked away and removed my hand. That is all, just looked back to the preacher and removed my hand. And she said... "YOU ARE JUST SO MEAN!"... She was referring to the fact that I removed my hand. I don't understand her world... and I have no desire to enter it. But this was EXACTLY what happened... EXACTLY how it happened.... EXACTLY how I was feeling and thinking... and EXACTLY WHAT SHE SAID AND HOW SHE ACTED. This is why we can't be married... we don't live in the same reality.

Changed the locks today. Keep finding things which she took. I am not surprised. She did a similar thing with her first husband. Actually 'bragging' about how she and her brother stole some silver dollars from a jar in the attic and what-not. Man... I was such a blind man.

I think I need to wear a wire when I date from now on. Then after the date, listen to the ENTIRE conversation again, without her being in front of me. THEN perhaps I can hear what she is saying, instead of my interpretation of it at the time.

heh... Like I want to date...

Yea, it is called the Knight in Shining Armor syndrome. And it is about as useless as can be. A few, just a few, females are truly grateful for being rescued. Most just see "Sucker" on your forehead. Gratitude is such burden for most folks. To admit gratitude is to admit an inability to manage their own lives.

Protect yourself. Be sure and inventory what she has taken and see what you can do about getting some of it back. If you can figure a way to stick it to her, by all means do so. It is time she learned about a word called, "Consequences." How is she as a mother? Any room there? Do you want visitation with daughters? How old are they?

Larry

It was my fault as much as hers as far as that goes. I shouldn't have ignored the signs and I shouldn't have thought I was 'too good to leave'.

I also shouldn't have continued when I kept getting information which showed me that she had no desire to interact with me in any form other than my bank account.

So... I realize what my part in it was. I just kept thinking, I would be able to LOVE her out of it. I kept thinking that if I used the HNHN principles, that I would reach her somehow.

But I read Harley's post about "Knowing when to call it quits" and it resonated with me. She wrote the crap online, and I asked her to leave. She wanted to try, and if I gave her the chance, she would show me. I said that I was afraid and that I didn't trust. She said that it would just take time and consistency in her showing me that she had changed. That lasted about 4 weeks, then revertion began. slowly but surely, neglect and money rebounded, care and concern dissappeared. But the biggest part is that we FINALLY were in counseling together. She just couldn't take it. She couldn't take the unmasking of what she acted like. She truly sees herself as a 'kind and gentle' person. She texted me that just a week or so ago.

WEll... a KIND AND GENTLE person DOESN'T do this in this way. So I think we have proof to the contrary.

Well, she is selling her personal narrative so she won't feel the guilt and shame she deserves. Don't buy what she is selling



Larry

CIFO, my sentiments are with you. Your story and mine are so alike in so many ways.

I did get confirmation from several professionals (counselors, psychiatrists, etc.) that my stbxw likely has a "Cluster B" personality disorder, specifically, Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). It doesn't make the current situation any better, but it does at least explain many of her behaviors, the I ignored, and even to some extent, the reason she managed to ensnare me in her trap (I never saw myself as her White Knight, but looking back, there were aspects of it).

Interestingly, the personal remedy to survive an abusive relationship such as the kind a BPD puts us through is the same solution as Plan B: complete and total NO CONTACT. I have gone from trying to save our marriage to simply trying to save myself!

Three weeks from tomorrow will be the first day under state law that I can file. I have told my attorney to mark her calendar...

I am relatively sure BPD would be given, if she were evaluated. Almost everything she does matches BPD. I have known it for about 2 years now, but... I didn't want to leave my 'family'.

I have gone complete no-contact. Everything through lawyers.

Just got back from Spring Break Trip with my boys. We had alot of fun, no itenerary trip to Gettysburg and DC. Laughed alot together. I cried alot as well however.

Listened to 'The Shack' on the way out and it really tore me up inside. I had so many emotions running around inside me as it was, and then to be hearing the same emotions in the audiobook about did me in. I don't think it would have hit me in the same way had this not happened at this time. I read the book before... or most of it. I just got stuck about 2 months ago, and couldn't continue reading for some reason. Maybe it was self preservation at the time. But listening to it in my car with my boys sitting there really broke me. Wore sunglasses on some pretty cloudy days is all I can say.

Anyway, I really heard the thoughts on forgiveness. That just about broke me in half. I realize that I have held so much against her, because she wouldn't simply apologize. It just kept stacking up and up... higher and higher. And since I couldn't talk about it with her, I just held it against her. I am unsure how to go about it, but I would like to tell her I forgive her. I love her and forgive her. I don't want to be married to the woman she is at this time, but I would love to be married to her as a healthy woman and wife. I thought about writing her a letter simply forgiving her for all the things I 'feel' I have held against her. I don't know if it would be well receieved... I doubt it actually, however, as the book and most people say... 'Forgiveness isn't for the other person... it is for yourself.' That doesn't mean to forget, and that doesn't mean that forgiveness relieves the other of responsibility to apologize and ask for forgiveness as well. It just means, that for ME... I don't have to carry around the burdon any longer.

I need to forgive her so I can move past the anger and sadness I have held for so long. It has driven me down, as a huge weight of self-righteousness atop my shoulders. What I wanted was a simple apology, and that was not to be, but to hold this any longer is simple folly. When I think of all the things which could have been so much better with a simple apology, hug, and a kiss, it makes my stomach tie up in knots. Such a basic form of love... such a basic form of trust restoration.. was not part of her love for me. I have never understood, nor do I understand even to the present. I feel so sorry for her.

I also heard about the thought of 'expectations' and I know that I held her under a huge wall of unmet needs and expectations on my part. For that I am truly sorry as well. We couldn't talk, and she was not receptive at all to almost any of my requests for ENs. It became such a folly for me to wish anything, because there was a high liklihood, that most ENs would go unmet. And that by asking for them to be, that they would be even more neglected. As my expectations grew and my ENs continued to go unmet, my aggitation grew, and I know that my attitude towards her became an issue, which I am sure, gave her more of a feeling of 'rightness' in NOT meeting my needs as her husband.

I have never understood this about our interactions, but then again, we tend to think others should act the way we would act or 'think' we would act in a similar situation. Had I heard her tell me something which was an EN, I would have worked to fulfill it. However, when she heard of an unmet EN, it was almost as if she felt I was attacking her or that I thought her 'lacking' and thereby, she felt obligated to retaliate. Our whole marriage was like that, and it makes me so sad.

I feel like a failure, both to her and her daughters. I thought that she would respond in a way I would respond, to the way I loved her. It was foolish... I agree... but not unreasonable. When I bared my soul and handed her my heart in counseling, she simply stated to the counselor "Its nothing he hasn't said before." And I realized she was right. I had been trying the same heartfelt attempts over and over again, trying to be vulnerable and reach her through the love I had to give. Thinking that by allowing myself to be fully open, exposed, and vulnerable, that she would see that I loved her. It was interesting, because the counselor stated, "That would have melted about 98% of all women's hearts... but that doesn't seem to even phase you." She just kinda looked at him with a flippant 'so what' look on her face.

I just kept looking at the situation, and even at that point, I kept thinking about the one time when we had fought a couple years ago, and afterwards, she said "Sometimes I feel like I am behind a glass wall, and can't stop. I want to just break, and hug and love you, but I can't get out. So I just keep getting more angry." I kept that in my mind almost every day. Thinking that if I was GOOD enough, loved LONG enough, and kept trying... that eventually, that person would break out from behind that wall. But it was not to be. I would love to be there to love that woman... but I realize that in MY world, she doesn't exist. This might be the woman who she thinks about when she thinks about herself. When she thinks about how kind and gentle she is, she is probably feeling this woman behind the wall. However, unfortunately, despite all I had and everything I could think of, and because I am a human man and can't be perfect or even always 'good', nothing I could do could touch that woman behind the wall. I wish for MY sake, my BOYS' sake, her DAUGHTERS' sake, and most of all for HER sake... that somehow, that woman would break out before everything is gone.

She could stop all of this with a heartfelt acceptance of the issues and a desire, willingness, and thoroughness of working these issues out. IF she chose, I would not push the divorce if she desired time to work on herself, and then on us. But she would have to do it of her own volition.

I can only apologize for my parts of it... I can also forgive.

Man oh man... Why can't I be HALF the [censored] that my wife has always thought I was???

The lability of my mood at this time is astounding. I find that my 'baseline' way of being is one of forgiveness and reconciliation. It is what allowed me to get through so many issues with my wife during our marriage. However, now it is causing me significant difficulty in thinking about this divorce.

I DO NOT WANT a divorce. But I also DO NOT WANT the marriage I have had.

Why is it that I constantly can feel like I want to reconcile even in the light of so many things which have occurred? I know I care incredibly for her girls... I LOVE them with all my heart. I know that I also love HER... but her dishonesty is not good for us. She has shown no remorse for so much... apologized for so little... and yet in my heart, I keep wishing that she would simply come to me, hug me, and say "I am sorry, I love you."

Why do we DO THIS to ourselves? We wish it were true, but we don't count on it happening.

If I were half the [censored] she puts me up to being, this would not be an issue. I would be out carousing.

One day I will be strong and logical... the next day my heart will be breaking and I will just want to hold her against my chest.

WHAT GIVES!!!! Arrrgggghhhh.......

Just got the Divorce papers in the mail.

You know... I was expecting them... but they still hurt.

2 weeks ago I was working hard on a marriage... now I am trying to think about getting through this divorce, what I am going to do about her girls... what will she allow if anything...

The reality is softer than I expected I guess. Not quite as tough, I think it is better, because I wasn't even supposed to get mail today, since I had put a 'stop' for my vacation. But I happened to be outside when he came by and he had only one piece... the piece I had to sign for. In some ways, I hoped that she wouldn't file, but I knew she would. She gets going on something and is like a laser... regardless of whether it is good or bad. Deal with the ramifications later... full speed ahead.

If we don't war, things will be fine.

It still hurts though...

The most odd thing is that I miss the IDEA of marriage more than my actual marriage. I never had what I miss... it is odd. I guess maybe I miss the potential of what could have been. I know I miss the thoughts of having someone to 'give' to. But I don't miss 'getting' anything. I just didn't get that much myself...

CFIO,

I think that when you look back on this in two years, you will have a sense of relief.

The woman who did this to you and the woman you WANTED her to be


they are not the same person.



She was not the person you wanted.
In your mind, you molded an image of her into someone you wanted her to be. You fit her into that - because you needed her to be that person.


She was NOT that person.



Interesting, you say you miss the IDEA of marriage, and not the marriage.

This is quite telling about your state of mind. What you desire is the sense of "home".

This woman never gave that to you. It was her CHILDREN that gave this to you.

Now, you find yourself facing this reality.


For future reference, date the WOMAN. Do not meet her children until you have dated at least SIX MONTHS. Then, you will know what is attracting you.

If the WOMAN gives you the sense of "home", you can then move toward the rest of her family.


That six month issue might sound strange, restrictive, and crazy. In your case, you are seeking refuge - and it is coloring your view of the world.


You need to make a strong boundary for yourself, and with this type of restriction you might find yourself better able to restrain your feelings.


Just my advice, after looking through your writing.


SB

Don't be so hard on yourself. She's messed with your emotions and you are hurt. Give yourself some time.

And you should have seen the signs? I had no signs... blindsided after 30 years of being together. It doesn't really matter once the affair happens. All bets are off on what should have happened.

I know you don't want a war, but you should contest the divorce. Stand up for yourself and your family. Think of her girls. You need to be there for them when their mother tries to drag them down with her.

I, too, miss being married. He's pretty much married to Bimbo -- lives in her house with her three kids, ignors our kids, acts like he's living a new life even though our divorce is far from being final.

And The Shack really hit home with me, too. If I wasn't going through the pain of the affair and divorce in my life, I would have skipped over some of the book's messages. I have a newfound appreciation of each of the Trinity and turn to God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit depending on my particular need. I pray that the Holy Spirit can cultivate WH's dead soul.

And ditto the advice to lock up your assets. Read my thread if you want to see how low a person will go for their affair partner. I wasn't in the drivers seat with our finances, so I had to snoop and play catch up to find what I could. You need to shut down what you can. It's not mean, it's the consequenses of her actions.

I'm 2+ years d-day and 1+ years getting the papers. Yes, it hurts to see your name on them. He filed. He bullied. Now he's stalling. Go figure. But I'm so much stronger than I would have been 1 or 2 years ago.

Get strong. Put emotions aside. Gather your army of supporters. Learn from this site. Continue to have a relationship with the girls. Be the best Dad you can. Keep the faith. You didn't deserve this... and by God, this will not break you.

If you think your W has BPD, I would suggest you read the book "Stop Walking on Eggshells; Taking your life back when someone you care about has BPD".

Get your pen when you read it and start underlining everything that you can relate to or behaviors that you see/saw in your wife. You will probably be amazed, saddened, horrified and relieved all at once.

If she truly has BPD, you will see exactly how empty and conflicted (and messed up) she really is, and you will also see that it makes little difference what you did or didn't do in the marriage....relationships with BPD's are tortorous and more than likely doomed to failure. And it's NOT your fault.

I bought the book after your post. I am about half-way through it and it is amazing... how much I feel like I am reading about my last 7 years. Several things such as substance abuse and self mutilation do not match at all. However the raging, projection, denial, inability to accept responsibility (can't say sorry), etc are like they had a tape recorder running on my life.

There are other things which don't fit on the surface, but which when looked at in context, fit perfectly. Abandonement has always been a huge problem for her. However, she has done about everything possible to push me away and neglect me.

It really saddens me, because I am sure that this will repeat. It saddens me because I really do love her. I love her girls as well, and they will be the real tragedy. I can already see it in some fashion, and it just breaks my heart. But...

It would have been easier to highlight the things which DIDN'T match my experience rather than those that did. I also really like the book in that it is set up to help people AROUND a person with BPD rather than simply talk about BPD itself. This is key to recognizing issues which I had simply learned to deal with rather than even recognize them as problems any more.

The fury, denial, and projection are the biggest parts I see in my wife. Security and abandonement are tatamount however, it seems she does everything she can to ensure they will come about. All the while blaming those around her. It just breaks my heart, but gives me some peace as well.

Lability... I forgot how bad it can be at this stage of a relationship or dissolution of a relationship. One day I think, OK... I can do this... the next I feel horrible. I find myself 'rewriting' history by way of 'it wssn't so bad' but then I think about EVERYTHING and realize that what we had was nothing compared to what it should have been. And it galls me...

Sometimes I think about just chucking it all and trying to make up, but then I realize that is has ALWAYS been me who tried to make up. Then I think perhaps if I had done 'this' differently... or 'that' differently, it would have made a difference. Then I realize that NOTHING I could have done, would have resulted in the way she treated my boys. THAT wasn't ME... that was HER!. Like I said... lability...

I watched 'Roxanne' last night with my boys, and started missing our early dating, when I used to write her letters and cards about what she did to my heart. And I missed that intensely. It is something which, over time and situations, I had quite doing, at least with the dominate romantic overtones of the letters. I still wrote, but it was about trying to show her my heart, rather than just giving it to her. When I was spurned over and over again, I just quite. I miss that part of me.

I find that the things I miss the most about our relationship, is having someone to GIVE to. Crazy isn't it... but it is the truth. I feel so much pent up desire to give, to explore, to astound, to warm, to ... give of myself. Unfortunately, that is about all I had over the course of my marriage, was MY giving. So I don't know whether my 'missing' it is simply missing the only thing I got out of our marriage that made me feel good... the good feelings I got within myself when I gave. It wasn't enough, obviously, I had significant unfilled ENs as well. But it has been so long since they were actually lovingly met, that I think I don't miss them any more. However, I gave as much as I had up to the end. Well... close to the end. I know that I began pulling way back about a month ago... I am unsure why, but I know I was none-the-less.

I felt tied down in this relationship... not tied down from 'doing my own thing' so perhaps that is not the best analogy. Maybe better would be that I felt 'hamstrung'. I needed more from her to be all I could be. I just couldn't be 'myself' without having some needs met. I tried... I tried to give without need, but I just couldn't do it well. It wasn't that my LOVE was conditional, in essence, although I believe all love other than children, is probably conditional. But it was that I just couldn't go that extra mile, when I was being neglected. It was like there was a stone wall which I needed help climbing over, and there was no helping hand to guide me. I don't know how to explain it, and in truth, it feels as though it is a cop-out or at a minimum, makes no sense. But it was real none-the-less. When I told my wife, in counseling, that I could be so much more than I am, if I had love returned to me, my counselor said "You need to be your best for yourself, you can't rely on others for that." And in some ways I agree... but in others, I completely disagree.

Given only myself, I would probably do so much in my life differently. Not live where I live, work like I work, etc etc. I do these things in this manner, because it benefits the ones I love. I am not inspired to make jewelry without someone to give it to. I am not inspired to paint, without someone to share it with. I am not inspired to write, without someone to read it. These things might seem trivial, however, they are WHO I AM. I was able to 'buy' things for my wife. I could buy trips and vacations, dinners, and trinkets. But I couldn't do what was really INSIDE me, because when I did, I felt unappreciated. And it kills me. I know, this was based upon my hopes and expectations, so I understand that it was ME who was the problem. However, it just got to the point that when I put myself into something and got a flippant smile, I just eroded. When I would take her on a trip, and all I would want was to make love, and I would get shot down... I quit wanting to go on trips. When I would go out to dinner, and hear "I have a headache' when desert rolled around, I quit wanting to go out to dinner. I never felt appreciated. I CERTAINLY was never admired, the opposite in fact.

So I find... at this time, today, that what I miss most... is someone to GIVE to. What a hellishly perverse place to be...

Man Oh Man...

I just emailed my wife about taking my (her) youngest daughter out for dinner on Thursday. I have known her since before she was 1yo and she is now 7 and knows me as 'Daddy'.

She replied that it would be fine, and that my daughter has been feeling as though I don't love her anymore. It breaks my heart. I am so confused... contact for my daughter makes me a mess because of contact with Mom. It isn't an anger... just a sadness...

My stomach is in knots... I feel sad, anxious, upset, angry... but mostly sad. Just those few words from my wife sent me reeling, and she did absolutely NOTHING other than reply to my request. She was completely appropriate in all ways, without excessive talking, and absolutely NO emotion. And yet, I am the one who is spun up...

I hate this so much... I find that I get alot of solace by driving in the country... I have driven so many miles recently that I am going to begin freaking out the farmers. After going to the gym this morning, I just drove around for about an hour, in the dark. Just thinking...

I know it isn't true... but I feel like I failed so many people. Truth or not... it sure feels like I did.

.

Time and life... that's what I need now... just some time and life in between now and then.

New Major issues with Dad's health only compound what is going on in my head. Maybe it is a blessing in that it will give me something else to focus on. Sometimes however, it would be nice to have a hug and hear "Everything will be alright." The only issue is that I never got that before either... hence the feeling of loss, of something I didn't have to begin with.

I was looking through old emails I sent a long time ago, reminiscing when I happened on an email about how I want to be good to her and all I need is to have her help me to understand her better. I didn't remember writing. It was so odd, because it sounded like something I would have written recently. When I looked at the date... it was Jan 2006. 6 months before we were married.

It breaks my heart on so many levels. Thinking about all the signs I ignored... thinking about how much I put into trying... and thinking about all the time we spent living in different realities. If I ever get to talk with God... I hope he will have an explanation to help me understand.

Took my (her) daughter out alone tonight and had a great time. It is really hard though, when she says "Next time we will take the boys and Mommy too!" I don't think my wife told her we are getting a divorce. I didn't bring it up, because I think it should come from her mom since she will have to deal with the ramifications more than I will.

We went out for Fish-n-Chips which is something we ALL loved doing. I think, that at this moment, the hardest thing is thinking about all we used to do together, which will never happen again. For all the problems my wife and I had... we had some good times as well. We used to go out to eat often, and I loved sitting there, listening to her talk and go on about everything under the sun. It does make me wonder what to do with all the time I used to spend trying to do things for her to keep her involved in US. I find that it must have been ALOT more time than I realized.

My little girl loves to read, and every time we go to the bookstore, she finds a book about 'Dads' in some fashion and she always wants me to read it to her. It just breaks my heart, because we really did do well together and we love each other dearly. She wanted to get a book for me to read her at bedtime. THEN she wanted to get a new 'I SPY' book which we also used to do at bedtime. Not being able to tuck her in brings a tear each time I think about it. Sometimes I want to scream and rage... but most times I want to just break down and cry. Damn it!.. why do we end up caring so much for people who can't show that they could even remotely care for us?

Sometimes I just want to shake my wife and say "Wake UP!!! Can't you see what you are doing??? It isn't only YOU!"

Daughters are just wonderful.

Larry

They are wonderful... and perhaps the hardest thing about this whole ordeal.

Tough day today. Having a table and chairs delivered. It is the table that we both went out and bought in October. We had looked for a new table for several years, never really seeing one we both liked. I had one request... since I sat at the end, I just wanted the end to have enough room for my feet not to hit a trellis or center piece. That was all... otherwise, we like the same styles etc. This request was unreasonable in her opinion, and it caused us some grief throughout our marriage. That was the ONLY request I made about the table. She accused me of 'shooting down' every option she had... but the only options she would show me were ones with the end up against the trellis, there would have been no place to sit and actually eat. Anyway... that is a long winded issue...

In Oct. we took our girls out for the day... we had a lazy day at the stores, and we FOUND THE TABLE we had been looking for. Big oval copper top, antique looking table. Certainly NOT cheap, but we had finally found it and we were both... we I should say I was and she 'seemed' happy. We went out for lunch and laughed alot with our girls.

I had placed a keylogger on my computer in July after finding out about her affair, she knew it was on there, but I believe she forgot. I rarely checked it, maybe once every 2 weeks or so, and only cursorily at that. At the end of Oct, I checked it. She had been on an adult hookup site looking for something 'discreet on the side to make her feel alive'. THE SAME AFTERNOON we had bought the table. This would have been a day that I would have ranked in the top of our days together. We had made love the night before and then had a great day finally finding a table.

I wrote her a letter which I read, because I wanted to stay on track, basically saying that I loved her and the girls. I could see that she had been trying to improve our relationship. That was why I couldn't understand why she chose to do this on this day of all days? She immediately became defensive and lied... saying she did it because she wanted to find out if I was spying on her. She knew she had to do something really bad to get me to come out, so she did it. Then she turned it all back onto me as the bad guy, etc etc etc. You know the story. She said she was done. I agreed and asked her to move out.

Well... today the table is coming... and I have relived this over and over again in my mind. I have reread some emails she sent to her mother (she left her email open one day and I looked through it) in which she said that 'I hate this man... almost as much as you hate XXX!' That was at about 8 months into our marriage.

It breaks my heart, but I see so many things which were such horrible behavior and thoughts. I look at them and see how she portrays herself as the poor single mom being divorced/divorcing the A-hole doctor. But man... it just breaks my heart because she is such a mess... both for herself and her girls. Oh... to look at her you would think she is clear thinking, but if you take 10 minutes and look at the differences in what she says DURING those 10 minutes, you will see a woman who has built up such a hateful defense against the world, that there is no way through to the person I believe is in there somewhere.

I am going to be sitting at this beautiful table tonight... all alone... and it breaks my heart.

But I realize that you can't help a person who doesn't want to even help themselves.

WOW!!!
I just received a call as I waited for the delivery of the table. Apparently, my wife called the company and instructed them not to deliver it to my house. The table had been put on her credit, and even though it was always agreed that the table was coming here, since she had the card it was placed on originally (simple store card) the company must do what she says.

Heh... I should have figured this would happen.

We bought the table form a store which she already had an account with, so in order to get the 6month same as cash, we put it on her card instead of paying for it outright. Even after she moved out, she was encouraging me to have it delivered, etc. I just hadn't until now. I called about a month ago, and scheduled it for delivery today. Well, since she has gone off the deep end, she decided she wants the table I guess. So she is throwing her weight around with purchaser.

I paid the balance of the card on 3/19 in order to keep her from having to pay the 24% interest which would have been on the card had I not. All with the understanding that the table was coming here.

Heh... man oh man... she is just a bit far off the porch. Her daily manifestation of crazy has been ratcheted up several knotches.

I sent an email to her and my lawyers saying she can have the table in lieu of taking the purchase price from the amount of money I owe via the prenup. This is MUCH better for me... because I really didn't want the table in the first place. She wanted something different, so I wanted to make her happy.

Heh.... this is going to be a different sort of divorce... I can tell. Just get me the heck through it as quickly as possible... but I am going to WAR as we do it.

Hey Can't.

Ok, thanks for the head's up about who you are.


We used to have a guy on here whose name is Cymanca. His motto was ""Never shelter anyone from the realities of their decisions": Noodle" He does what you do for a living. Go search for his name and read, please.

See, as you know, you are an Icon. Women chase what you do, the image, the money, the status, instead of who you are. Cross you bear. You can be the biggest flaming jerk with an ego the size of NYC, or a really good guy. It doesn't matter. Don't know what to tell you past that. You have a mess on your hands.

When a woman wakes up and realizes you are not who she thought you were, she gets mad at you, not herself. That you are a good guy or not, doesn't matter. It is your fault. Right? And of course that isn't right on so many levels it is almost impossible to describe.

All the best.

Larry

Thanks Larry...

I don't get much input on this thread. Not sure why, but probably because I am not trying to maintain this marriage any longer. I will just keep posting, just for my own sanity's sake.

I appreciate the support in any regard however. Thanks for your input.

CFIO,

My uncle once said of his soon to be ex:

I need to watch her because she is like a rooster. As soon as I think I am rid of her, she comes back around from behind to spur me.

He was right. She would lay low, quietly, and then strike again. Watch your WW. She seems to be this type.

On one of the threads about reward endorphins, dopamine, PEA, whatever. Some women get hooked on it. They get a bit of a charge from reading female porn, Harlequin and the like. They believe that true love is in an infatuation.

Cant, this is Surviving an Affair. That is this particular sub-forum. Surviving can mean the restart of a marriage, or divorce. In the event of a divorce, you can take advantage by acquiring the emotional tools available here to give it a better and more knowledgeable go of it next time.

The number of posts to you reflects that people can't figure out what would make a difference in your situation. Your wife's personal narrative is apparently fixed on blaming you for all of her own stuff. Kinda hard to change that even though it is total bull crap.

And you seem to be getting your head screwed on straight, not much to do there either, except to cheer on your progress. And confirm your suspicions, validate your guesses and encourage you to keep on keeping on.

Larry

Cymanca's wife was way like that. Yeouch!

larry

Only thing now is whether there is value in exposing everything. Given everything that has happened, I am debating. The affair was almost a year ago. The internet crap was what led to me asking her to leave in November. I DON'T want her back... because I finally have been able to see just what I was doing for the last 4 years, and it is not worth it at all to continue on in that vein.

Perhaps it would put some presence of mind back into her if everyone knew her 'story' from a slightly different perspective. Along with some emails, pictures, and keylogger logs, etc etc.

It would do one of two things... either back her down and we can get this done quietly, or turn her even more ravening and at least people who were mixed into it would have a better understanding of just who it is they are dealing with... both her and ME!

There are two people who I wonder whether they should be notified. They have some interest beyond the 'norm' and the way she is acting, it might be best that they become involved for the sake of others. I am just not sure whether their involvement would be beneficial or trouble for the person I am worried about. I would have always thought it would have been 'bad' before, but now I am not so sure. The lies involved and the things I see certainly make me wonder whether their involvement should increase substantially. We will see how things run out in the next few days.

Read cy's thread. You may find some wisdom there. He is obviously down the road from where you are.

Larry

Larry is right. I'm sure there are quite a few folks reading, but like me, may not have anything constructive to add at the time. I really hope your possible divorce doesn't become a bitter fight over every little thing. Seems to me like she is just pouting and trying to strike back.

I'm not sure if you should expose at this point or not so I don't want to encourage you one way or another. I'm sure you do know that if you do expose, she is going to get 'uber-pi$$ed'. But then again, what have you really got to lose at this point? Remember the purpose of exposure is to shine the light of day onto the affair which thrives in darkness. Yet, it is from a year ago, so what then would the point be? I can still see a point- for one it will build YOUR support network. Two, depending on the targets, it MAY lead to one of the targets influencing your WW to re-committ to the M, if that is still something you want.

I will defer to the vets on this one. Appologize if I'm not making sense. I'm very tired and probably shouldn't be saying anything right now!

I appreciate it SoL.

I have been listening to 'The Shack' again, and I believe that there is no value in me exposing at this time. It would be simple vindictiveness, one of the things I have dealt with from her for so long. Returning something in kind in such a manner would not be the person I am nor have been.

While I fail often, I have tried very hard to live my life right with her. My heart has always been in the right place, but my actions certainly could have been better quite often I suspect. In listening to 'The Shack' from about time 5:30 ->7:00 time frame, the jest is Mac, (main character) speaking with God. This takes on my situations and thoughts which I have struggled with quite often, but one is of 'responsibility and expectations'.

I have 'felt' it was her 'responsibility' to fulfill my needs and I 'expected' her to do so because of that responsibility. I have realized that this simply is not the case in essence of love and respect. I don't know how to explain, and it does SOUND to be different than what we are taught in so many ways. However all I can say is that if you read the book, or I actually prefer to listen as I drive, I can see so much better, how I have held her to a standard by which, she would certainly fail, given her fear and inability to trust in herself, much less me. Living a life fearing failure, fearing truth, and fearing trust does not allow a person the freedom to fail and to believe Love will still be there afterwards. I can see that now in how she dealt with situations, and it breaks my heart.

I always 'thought' she felt as I did, that while you strive to NOT fail, that failure will not influence the basic LOVE which is between a husband and wife, if the person accepts the failure, asks for forgiveness, and works to change. I have never been afraid to fail, but I have failed often. I get up, brush myself off, and work harder. But I see that is not the case with everyone, and therefore, they believe as they believe.

In all your times and trials... I hope you all love yourself and keep yourself within your values. I have broadened my values somewhat... or actually, I have tried to remove the self-righteousness which I have carried around for so long. I recommend listening to 'The Shack'... it is about $7 on iTunes and is well worth it. Put it on and take a drive... keep some tissues with you... you just might come home with a slightly different attitude about all of this mess we find ourselves in. The first hour or so is pretty difficult to get through, but it sets up the rest of the story and is important to understand the main character. But afterwards, I felt as though I was the main character, and could put myself in the situation with my own THINGS instead of the books... it is worth it.

I will certainly stumble and become lost again, but each time I believe that I get closer to being the best me I can be. There is a beautiful illustration about it in the book...

It goes something like this...

If God knows it will take you 47 times of failing in order for you to get your head on straight about a problem... he doesn't hate the failures you incur. When you fail... he rejoices... because he knows that now there are only 46 more to go... and you are that much closer to being who you need to become in the end.

I really liked that anecdote... it gave me a great sense of peace.

T... I care so much about you. I am so sorry for being less than I wish I had been. I forgive you your problems between us. I ask that you forgive me mine. Whether we remain married or divorced, I will strive to act in expectancy rather than have expectations and work to respond rather than believe in responsibility.

Cant

You have seized on knowledge. This means you will come out the other end of this life trial with an understanding of relationships like most males wouldn't even think about acquiring.

That will make you a valuable commodity my friend, valuable indeed.

Larry

Read everyone of Cymanca's posts last night... hit the sack at about 2am. Early on... it sounded as though we had the same wife, although my wife, I don't believe, is based upon an affair at this moment. But I appreciated you pointing out his story and I did see alot of myself in his early posting.

I thought it might get you down the road a bit faster. His early stuff is very much like yours. His end game is not where you are yet. The level of entitlement of his Ex and her off the wall personal narrative could only have come from a totally bonkers LPC, which is what I think she did for a living. Sounds like you have a more run of the mill head job.

Lrry

The most frustrating thing is that I DO LOVE HER. And I KNOW she loves me. But I can't maintain a relationship with the level of neglect and anger I feel from her and she can't maintain or grow a relationship with the level of pressure she feels from me and the level of fear and mistrust she has in herself.

She knows she loves me, but she is so angry at everything that I am the easiest thing to point to as being her primary source of anger. However I know that it is simply that I am a 'safe' target for her outlet. It still hurts though. I know that her lashing out at me over the last few weeks is her fear, sadness, and love all gushing out in inappropriate ways. It is just so amazing to me, the different way people express the same emotions. I was fearful, mistrustful, angry, and scared... and I tried to hold on and love more. I tried to open myself up to her even more than I had been. To me, I believe she had the same emotions, however we never spoke about it directly. When she has these emotions, she turns cold, calculating, distant... she 'hunkers down' and schemes on self preservation. Even though I believe that she cries at night because she wants to be with me. I just don't understand such disparity.

The funny thing is, all these things she has recently done AREN'T what I think about when I think about what hurts so much. IT is all the things in the past which come to mind. Like the ONE TIME I ever got sick, and she never came upstairs to even check on me the whole day. I nurtured her through headaches, stomach aches, etc etc etc our whole relationship. I held her hair back as she puked in the toilet. The one time I get sick and the only person to check on my was my (then) 5 yo daughter. THAT is one of the things which come to mind when I think about things which make me sad.

All the things which go on now are simply continuation of what I unfortunately have come to expect, so they really aren't that big of a deal. It is just so sad sometimes...

She was very good at several things, which I believe she felt I UNDERAPPRECIATED as her attempts to show me love. She is a GREAT COOK, she learned during our relationship and she is the best at it of anyone I have ever known. I really DID appreciate it, and EVERY SINGLE NIGHT I would comment on how good dinner was. I would ask if I could help, and I would stand in the kitchen just to be with her to talk and simply be available. EVERY NIGHT I would do it. We have a rule in our house that if you cook, you don't clean. That was MY rule... one which I brought into our relationship, not because I cooked so much, but because SHE cooked so much. So I would help my kids do the dishes after supper as well. But I don't think she ever felt I appreciated it 'enough' but truthfully don't know how I could have appreciated it more and shown it.

She is also great at buying gifts. She takes the time to really think about good gifts for people, and she has thought of some great and very unique gifts for me. She bought me an 'oil painting class' for Christmas and gave me a 'card' that she had found and would get me 'fencing lessons' for Valentine's Day. We split before the fencing lessons could begin, so nothing ever came of it, but she THOUGHT of it, and that was what counted for me. These are things which she gleened through normal conversation, as things which I always wanted to do, but couldn't work into an already overbooked college schedule. So she gave them to me NOW!

It tells me alot... it tells me that she loves me, because it takes TOO MUCH WORK to come up with these gifts, find the place, figure out times, etc. If she didn't love me much, she would just grab me a shirt while she happened to be at the mall one day. But the things I TOLD her I needed, for some reason, the simple act of telling her, caused her to be unable to address them. Kind of like an Opositional and Defiant personality disorcer seen in children.

For instance, before we were married, she paid a TON of attention to my boys. She would stay later than their bedtime sometimes, and she would go upstairs and bounce on their bed and kiss them goodnight EVERYTIME she was here. She would hug and kiss them, and they AND I, fell in love with her. This all stopped almost immediately upon moving into the house after marriage. When I asked her about it, and told her how important her relationship with my boys was to me and our marriage, she ignored my request. I mean simply IGNORED IT. I told her I loved how she used to tell the boys 'Goodnight' and how all the hugs and kisses made me AND THEM feel so much closer. She would do less and less each time I brought it up. And up until I asked her to move out in NOVEMBER, over 3 years into marriage, She STILL was ignoring them for the most part. Even though I gave her SPECIFIC examples of things which would improve the situation, she simply wouldn't do it. After she moved out, THEN all of the sudden she decided to treat them better, but with her moving out, as you all know, the interaction decreases significantly and everything just grew apart from then on.

It is these types of things which just baffle me to the nth degree. How she can obviously love me and try to show me on one hand, and ignore my direct request to the point of adding to the problem, on the other. Even when I spoke with her as directly, calmly, and distinctly about my thoughts, she just absolutely ignored it.

I just don't understand the disparity.... not at all.....

Lots of resentment showing there Can't. From her. It didn't work out because you were a good catch. And she hid/modified parts of her personality accordingly. Women, many, get onto this ideal and idea of a good catch. Jewish moms are famous for it with their daughters. And it bites them as often as not.

Hard to keep up a facade when you are with someone 24/7. Hard to keep faking it till you make it when you are so eat up with what you expected, you cannot tolerate what you got. Even in the face of what you got was more than you expected.

I have written about good catch deals before. I wish I knew more about it, I know just enough to sometimes see one and understand some of the dynamics. Wish more women would talk about it. I really would like to know more.

Larry

Her mother married a man who turned out ot be aweful for everyone involved. My wife was about 10 I think... somewhere about then. He became/was an alcoholic and treated them very poorly. Her mother treated him equally poorly, but since he made very good money, they stayed together, literally until the youngest went to college, then she left. My wife hated him... and when I met my wife, she couldn't stand being around her mother. They still have a difficult relationship, but it is better.

I think that my wife simply didn't recognize that marriage meant she had to give. Her mother simply subsisted on the financial aspect of the relationship, and otherwise I think they were completely ignorant of each other, except for fights which apparently were hot, heated, and frequent. My wife talks about it often. The odd thing is that she treats me like I were HIM! She ignores me, acts like I am horrible, apparently simply out of expectation that that is how a husband is, so anything I do which could CONCEIVABLY cause her the least discomfort, be that being a TRUE [censored] to simply asking the girls to turn off a light, seems to be RELIVED in her childhood as her perception of the drunken idiot of a stepfather.

She could never tolerate ANY criticism, although she was very critical of herself. I was constantly telling her that I thought she did well, or was good, or something 'good' but she seemed to always think she was bad. As I write this, it was almost as if she didn't love herself, so she didn't think anyone else could REALLY love her either. Hmmmmm...... that might be the case. She just can't believe that I can love her IN SPITE of the things I dislike about her. So she grabs onto the things I don't like and uses them as a shield, and refuses to try to improve things I DO LIKE because she doesn't want to invest in something which is going to so OBVIOUSLY fail anyway. Maybe that is why she changed so drastically immediately after I asked her to marry me.

While writing on here... I constantly find myself thinking things slightly differently than before...

Cant. . .


And as time goes on, you will change your personal narrative many times to deal with reality as you discover it for yourself. Writing stuff down yields a clarity talking to yourself fails to uncover.

Okay, sounds like she is broke and you can't help her. Don't even try.

Larry

Spoke with my preacher today about EVERYTHING in our relationship and my previous marriage as well.

He basically said that it was all up to her and God. If she wanted to do something different, then she would be able to do it. He stated that 'Its up to her. If she wants to change her situation and wants to love you, then she will find a way to do it. I believe, after what you have said, that you love her and she loves you. I also believe that you remain open. However, I believe that should she choose to leave and the divorce becomes final, that you have done all you can in a manner which God would be proud of. He knows BOTH your hearts... so nothing is hidden from him. If either of you have closed your hearts, then your marriage will end. But if she begins to see her part, and instead of running, choses to confront and change it, by repenting, asking forgiveness, counseling and ultimately changing, then I can see you having a great and loving relationship and your daughters having a great mom AND dad. If she chooses to blame, close down, and neglect... run don't walk away. When God put her into your life, perhaps it was just to show her what she could have if she chose it. But, people don't always choose what is good for them, and disregard it until it is too late. At this moment, and up until the papers are signed, it isn't too late. But she will have to decide on her own whether it is better to take the seemingly EASY route and run away, hoping for someone else to be willing to put up with her ways, or whether she wants to buckle down, do the work, and make the changes to regain the love of a good man who already loves both her and her daughters."

It was somewhat amazing that he basically encapsulated everything I felt, in a nutshell of a paragraph or two.

Not his first rodeo. He is trained and he sees with the eyes of experience. He trusts God, as you should.

Great advice Can. <- changed your nickname Thanks for sharing.

Larry

Sounds like you have a very wise preacher. This, to me, was HUGE in coming to terms with my WH moving out and me finally being able to find some peace (not every day, but it's getting better).

Once I realized that I had absolutely no control over what kind of decisions or actions my WH made from here on out, things got so much easier. We can control ourselves and we can pray for them, but they are basically on their own (hopefully with God's guidance in there somewhere).

Oh, and thanks for reminding me about The Shack. That was one of those 'life changing' books that I read about a year ago and probably should be pulling out again to read.

Wow, your wife sounds like she really struggles- she sounds so incredibly conflicted! I'm still seeing sooo many BPD traits in her. As you know, those traits are what make people with BPD so incredibly fantastic and charming in the beginning (almost too good to be true)....and so unpredictable and heartwrenching once they feel threatened by feeling too close to you and decide to bolt.

It is the obvious struggle and the complete incongruency which makes it so difficult for me to simply let go. When you see someone hurting so much and pretending that they aren't causing their own pain, it really makes it difficult to just step back, love, and leave alone. Seeing it occurring when the two daughters you love are also involved and being hurt just compounds it 10 fold.

Today was the most 'normal' day I have had in a long time. I think talking to my preacher yesterday helped begin healing alot of holes I was feeling in my heart.

That's great! I think you will find that those 'normal' days come around more often as time goes on.

God is good and He has a great plan for your life...just keep asking Him to point you in the right direction to get there (and to guard your heart while you're on your way).

Heh... I think that MY problem is that HIS view appears to be different from MY view. I wish that I could come to grips with that. But beyond everything else, there is no doubt that, as with most here, our Expectations of how things were going to be in our lives certainly differs from what is ACTUALLY going on in our lives. I think that I feel a pressure, at my age (41) to 'get moving'. I married believing that we were on the relatively same page in our desires, and was significantly mistaken. And it breaks my heart. However, NOW, I fear that I won't be able to trust God enough to listen. I fear the FEAR, somewhat, of being alone, but the biggest fear is that I will NOT have someone to share all the things I want to give. Sad but true, it just kills me that my biggest regret at this moment, is the loss of someone to receive what I wish to give. Once again, I believe it is because GIVING has been what I have gained most from over the past several years. Receiving EN support was so limited, that my day to day 'good feelings' came from an almost single sided feeling of 'good from giving'. I never regretted the giving, nor was I jealous. That is how I am by nature.

And it scares me... it scares me that I might merely be 'taken' by someone who is primarily a 'taker' because I am willing to 'give'. I fear that part of me, and even though I understand the issue, putting it into practice worries me. I KNEW what I wanted before I married, and yet I fell in love with someone who met very few of those things. I didn't date several women again because they 'didn't have' what I was looking for, and yet I completely buried my head when I met my wife, because she had a couple of the IMPORTANT things... ie 2 little girls who I love dearly. Man it still kills me to think about them, and all I wanted to be for them.

Well... not that I am ready to date... that is for sure. But I have thought about what I did and what I did wrong, and COULD I ever believe another woman who said she loved ME? It is enough to buy a 2 BR house and never tell her what I did until I really believed she loved me and not my 'potential'. That... or marry someone well off enough that there would be NO Question that she didn't need me for my fianancial security. Hmmm.... that might do it...

You know it is sad to question the utility of 'being yourself' when your basic 'self' is a giver...

I have thought alot about this today. And how would a person trust in this regard. I was unfortunately 'fully willing' to give, because I am capable and enjoy it. However, that did not mean that I didn't need to receive as well. How in the WORLD can you trust what you are seeing when you make a great ($) with a target on it? I have already seen a change in how people are treating me... and it makes me want to run and hide.

How do you trust? You make sure your own taker is present, along with your giver...you yank Taker forward and introduce him to the next woman you want to marry.

Which may be how you got to your last sentence.



And being an unconditional receiver is really tough...you know how good giving feels...watching your balance and making sure you receive allows your spouse to feel that great, too.

Don't go into a future that isn't here yet. Practice, though.



LA

I agree... I think that I work and have worked on the basis of most of what I GOT out of a relationship was the 'good feelings' I got out of 'giving' in a relationship. I tried to introduce my taker, I really did, however, my wife was so aggressive that anytime or anything I did something of a 'taking' sort she would squash it with fury.

I talked with my IC last night, and we discussed more of what had happened. I hadn't had the chance or remembered, or thought about or repressed alot of things which I have been remembering lately. He was surprised about some of the things she did. Like buy me a shirt, then when she was mad at me, take it back. Remove all of our daughters pictures from my office when she was mad. Take all the refrigerator magnets when she was mad (stupid but true, then to my face when questioned say "I didn't do it... I thought YOU did." WOW!!!) Give me a coat then take it back when she was mad... lots of little passive/overtly aggressive Borderline crap that I think, in order to 'maintain' my marriage and try to preserve my family at all costs, I compartmentalized and didn't allow myself to consciously 'link'. I think that I even KNEW that if I thought about everything all at once, or even a few things all at once, I couldn't continue the marriage. So I just kept putting things in little boxes in order to come home after work and get up next to her the following day.

After talking with my preacher and IC this week, it feels like a thousand pounds have been removed from my shoulders. I have always KNOWN what all that crap meant, but I never thought I had the 'right/responsibility to myself' to say "Enough is enough". I just tried to preserve my family and wanted to be there not only for our girls... but for her as well, when she came out of this Borderline fog. I just couldn't realize that it wasn't fog to her, it was a true reality. And it just breaks my heart. But I am feeling SO much better without that day to day responsibility to try to 'fix' her in light of all the craziness which was ensueing all around.

Taker... I don't even know if I have one. I want one... I would like to miss something I was GETTING in my marriage instead of only things I was giving. Wow... having someone actually WANT to give... and me being able to accept it as right... that is a novel concept in and of itself.

Balance isn't easy...and I think I struggled with balancing my Giver and Taker because I told myself a lot of lies...

small lies...

deceptive, nonetheless.

You have a Taker. You know you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't be divorcing your WW.

You experience your Taker, it seems to me, when you hit the "that's enough" point. Problem can be, you've moved that point up and down, back and forth, over the course of your life. No wonder you don't know if you have a Taker.

"Enough is Enough" is past the point of healthy Taker stepping forward. It's your Giver demanding others change because of your actions...that they respond in the way you want them to...which is the evil side of the Giver.

I learned that pleasing can be abusive. Honestly. When I would give without trying for a certain outcome, like you, I would love the resulting feeling. And I'd kick at my Taker to keep getting that feeling...

and not realize that I went from giving free of response, to giving to get...and it's a gnarly road, sir. It's tricky and it slides a lot. Because pleasing comes from fear...unless you act from love definitively.

Giver Lies: That you can fix your spouse. Solve her problems. Change her mood, her feelings, thoughts, beliefs and perceptions.

Taker Truths: You do others an injustice when you try to fix them. You're telling them (without realizing) that they aren't capable, they are too stupid to solve their own problems, too dense to understand why they keep repeating their own mistakes. You are telling them you're better than they are when you enable their bad behaviors; because all harmful acts go both ways...hurt their spouse and themselves. When you act with awareness from your Taker, you honor they are as in control, powerful and equal to you...because you know they have a Taker, too.

Your love language may have been gifts...and she was taught that love was power (not love)...that gifts were grace...and when you hurt her, she took back her grace, her gift. Silly? Immature? Absolutely. You not getting she was hurt or afraid? What do you call that?

After the first shirt take-back, your Taker would have said, "Okay, that really hurts." And the next gift, you don't accept. Sounds silly for a husband and wife...nonetheless, your Taker would have said, "No thank you. We define gifts differently. Feels like you take your love away from me."

The symbol of your daughter's picture in your office, and her removing them, was huge...don't count out how much information she gave you right there. That she gave you the gift of your daughter and you, in some way, said she was stupid, trash, incapable, and she wanted to take back her gift of your daughter.

Silly? Immature? Miscommunicative? Absolutely. Your Taker could have, right then, said, "Wow, you really must be hurting because you're hurting me, too." Calling folks on their actions is an act of love...what is not calling them on, then?

I don't believe you really accepted her horrific acts at the time...a coping skill. In that trade off, you don't accept what she's telling you, asking of you, not accepting her love, pain or fear, either. We don't when we're too busy trying to solve them.

I share this so you will know she's not a monster and how vital it is for your Taker to be present, aware...and watch how the Giver will deceiving through justification and the Taker will be radically honest...and yes, each have their purpose. You remain responsible for them, in your control, in you.

Don't fix your next wife, 'k? Don't disrespect and break down, talk down to her, confirming she can't handle her own stuff...you wouldn't want that done to you and for them to call it love.

Removing your presence when she was aggressive is your Taker. Choosing to believe she could squash your Taker with fury was a way to betray yourself and reinforce she was the problem to solve.

Not you.

Not one bit of this post caused her to have an A. No matter your attitude, your choices...that alone was hers. The state of the marriage before the affair, what you normally work through during recovery from an affair, still awaits you...even without recovery. Please look to finding your balance, taking ownership of your Taker and your Giver, so that you can fully recover, over time, and understand.

To repeat would deepen the pain, just as not recovering lengthens it. Be good to yourself. Learn to be really good to yourself, your best friend, bringing out your best self and pointing out when you're back into old coping ways.

For you, your daughter, and your next relationship.

I believe your W, btw, was as big a pleaser as you are. She became aggressive and furious when you didn't respond in the way she wanted when she gave you what she thought you wanted. That's how beautiful the Giver becomes from so many lies to please...it's brutal.

Receiving is giving the other person the chance to experience joy of giving. Your W, pre-A, gave. Find those ways...because you will be lured by the next woman in the same way...be aware. And know what response she expects when you meet her...she'll appear totally opposite of your by-then-x-wife...and she won't be.

LA

Holy Cow... LA...

I feel like I owe you at least a couple hours pay.

I appreciate your thoughts more than you know. That is alot to chew on and I will do so diligently.

Thank you very much.

You know...

I have been thinking about alot of things since we have split up. I realize alot of what I have been doing, accepting, and not doing as well. All of these things were within MY realm of influence, without a doubt. And while I DON'T want to belittle their importance nor my effect upon our marriage, the things which I had no control over were really the issues for me which pushed us over the edge.

Trust was the biggest issue. I simply couldn't trust her and she made no visable/appreciable attempt to change that fact. She was capable of looking me in the eye and lying to my face, even while knowing without a doubt that I knew the truth of the matter she was trying to lie about.

And lack of repect... now respect must be earned, there is no doubt. However, there was no earning respect from my wife. She has no/little respect for anyone and anything I have found. She seems to live in a self-indulgent world in which it only affects HER, but one in which she has no effect UPON. Taking something of someone else's for her own use then refusing to put it back was NOT something from within ME... that came from within HER. Feeling that she could ignore my boys but that I needed to improve my relationship with her girls did not come from either me or my boys... it came from within HER.

I could have tried to POJA until I was blue in the face, but she simply didn't respect me and my thoughts. She always seemed to feel that if I had a belief/idea counter to her own at the moment, then it was because I was 'mean' or a jerk. NOT that I had a different belief or idea about something, which was valid and legitimate. I rarely felt legitimate in my realtionship. I believe she felt I didn't accept her, but I could not have tried to accept her thoughts MORE than I did. It was simply that whenever mine were different, she immediately 'blew me off' as the 'boss' or 'ignoring her wishes', no matter what I would do. There were times in which she would have an entire conversation IN HER HEAD, as if she were talking to me and I had shot her idea down. THE REALITY would then be that she treated me in REAL LIFE as if I had been a jerk, and shot her idea down and ignored her. EVEN THOUGH IT ALL HAPPENED INSIDE HER HEAD!!!! I remember several times, when she would begin to speak... hesitate... and I could see it going on in her mind... "Well I think this, but he will just think that, and I will say this, and he will say that, and then he will win, he is such a jerk!" And then she would simply ignore me and be mad. There was NOTHING I could do to return to the conversation, because in her mind, I had already shot her idea down or forced my view or etc etc etc. There is NO WAY TO DEAL WITH THAT in a normal world context. In her MIND I DID IT... but in reality I was not even in the room.

THIS didn't come from my intereaction WITH HER... it came from INSIDE HER.

Yes, my taker was weak, but not initially, just after it was repeatedly shot down over and over again. There was NO enforcement, because the only ways I could deal with it were to put up with the issues or leave. No middle ground... no talking... I don't know HOW to keep a stable Taker in service any longer. I don't know HOW to evaluate and influence events when my Taker is utterly ignored or even castagated and degraded. I am uncertain of skills which would allow me to bend, but neither hide nor run. I have felt, during this marriage, that my only options were to Stand there and take it or leave. I still think, that with THIS marriage, that is relatively accurate. However I UNDERSTAND that this is NOT optimal.

It scares me because I KNOW that my skills at boundry enforcement in the face of my ENs being ignored or inadequately met will require that I find a way to lovingly ensure that my spouse/GF or whatever in the future, hears what I need and respects the needs as LEGITIMATE. I think that is the biggest reason my marriage failed... she didn't see my ENs as legitimate nor respect me enough to want to be the person who fulfilled them. I believe she loved me... and still does. However, to her... that means something different than it means to me.

Wow, you are doing some amazing reflection there! Good job.

I know just how you feel about trying to deal with your wife's mind, eerily similar actually. I felt the same way with my WH and through the years often thought, "I just can't compete with his mind" (so much projected and assumed that was not even based on reality). You maybe also felt like banging your head into a wall whenever you tried to have a 'discussion' (or a fight)....it never gets you very far because they are working from an entirely different level of awareness (or lack thereof) that is completely skewed. So frustrating.

I think it's great for you to keep working with IC to not only get through your current grief, but also to pinpoint what your NEEDS are and the parts (red flags) you overlooked when dating your wife that you will not want to overlook once you start dating again.

CantFig:

I was in your shoes and I went through all the analysis too. Keep it up. Yes, you hit this situation right on the head... Respect and Boundaries.

I remember the pain. It was horrible. I blamed myself for months. Then I begin really thinking about what my 19 years was like. I talked to my counselor and pastor, friends, family. They all filled in missing things that I had forgotten or forgiven. Yes, it was abuse (PTSD) but i ALLOWED it to happen.

Keep up the good work and listen to all the good advice you are given.

I recognize that I did try to change her after we married. I am not exactly sure what I should have done, but I know that I found I did not respect the person she became or showed me after we married. It breaks my heart, because truthfully, I am not sure what I SHOULD have done.

We began counseling with a Christian counselor 4 months after marriage, at my request. I went about 20 times, she went about 5 and we went together 3 times then she wouldn't go any longer because she felt she was being ganged up on by two guys. So I looked for a female counselor and began with her. Again, I went about 30 times, she went about 6 and we went together 3 before she quit going.

I found she was looking for sex on the internet and asked her to move out. I went to a counselor for myself... to just keep myself going, because I felt things ending and didn't want them to, but knew that I would be better off if I was working maximally if they did go down. She wanted me to make her an appointment, but I told her I wouldn't, but gave her a card. After 4 months she finally went. I think she went 3 times alone and 3 times together and that was that. After the 3rd time she filed for divorce. All this was over the course of 3 1/2 years.

Along with all this, I tried MB principles to little avail. Oh... she was thrilled with my plan A... but did nothing in return. I never really did plan B, but was about ready when she decided she wanted a divorce. The last time I spoke with her was that last counseling session, she kissed me on the cheek. We have had no contact other than a few sparse emails since that time. Seen her physically only once in 3 weeks.

But yes... I tried to change her. I tried to introduce MB, buying the CDs, Books, everything. Asking for MB weekend at least 3 times. She read only HNHN, at least she said she did. I worked as hard as I could to BE a good husband to her and father to her girls. I tried to change her choice to ignore me. I tried to change her choice to ignore my boys.

I did NOT try to change her simply for my own edification. I realize NOW that I was trying, in all actuality, to help her 'REVERT' to who she had been when I was dating her. The person she was when I asked her to marry me. I kept thinking I had to work harder at being better so she could go back to being the REAL HER, rather than this person. The odd thing is that SHE said at least 4-5 times in the last 6 months that she wanted to 'just date' like before. I believe she equated how much differently things were before we married as well, but does not equate the changes to how drastically differently she treated me and my boys upon marriage. It is almost as if she believes there was something 'magical' about dating which cannot be had while married. I can't quite relate to how she thought that dating would make a difference. All our marriage, I tried to get a baby sitter to go out, but she refused to leave the girls with 'someone she didn't know'... so we went out little and almost constantly had the girls with us, regardless. I went so far as to set up an interview with 2 candidates, all she had to do was call for a time... she simply ignored it. We couldn't even really go on a vacation, because it was a Rube Goldberg mix of family and friends trying to coordinate care for the girls instead of having someone consistent. So the whole vacation was always shortened and she was constantly talking about 'hope so and so picked up the girls.... Hope they got off the bus OK... etc.' Now... I could have afforded WHOMEVER we wanted... but she just wouldn't OK it.

So YES... I DID try to change her... what does that MEAN?

Does it mean that she was inadequate? Perhaps... at least in several areas she certainly was, or rather her choices in action or behavior were inadequate for me and my needs. I needed more and better interaction with my boys. She HAD been wonderful when we dated, but then began ignoring them overtly, choosing her friend's children over mine, when there was any trouble. She would HIDE information concerning my children, divulging it in dribs and drabs... piece-meal as she saw fit, and only the pieces she chose at any given time. When I asked her why... she said she didn't want to 'injure' her friend's relationship with her son. Are you F'ing KIDDING ME!!! She ignored MY RELATIONSHIP with MY SON... in her OWN HOUSE in favor of her friend's relationship with her son. THIS is who I LOVED????? OMG... where was my mind? Why couldn't I kick her out at that point? She ignored my request for information and obviously COULDN'T see how her actions and choices were effecting ME, my SON, and our MARRIAGE.

I was so blind... I am SICK thinking about what I was willing to put my children through in order to NOT HURT HER CHILDREN by leaving her.

I just don't understand how she could have been so GOOD to my boys beforehand, and so aweful after saying 'I do'. THIS was REALLY THE PROBLEM... I just kept thinking I had to be good enough for her to 'GET BACK TO WHO SHE REALLY WAS'... I still don't understand and the circular thoughts just keep spinning round and round.

Had I been stronger... I should have left at about 6 months. Perhaps she would have cared enough at that time to actually work on things. As it was... things degraded far and away past what would have normally occurred. I kept things going long after they would have normally crashed.

Had I left when she still cared, maybe things would have turned out differently.

Maybe this is it. My weakness was feeling that by staying I was being strong. I thought by pushing down my taker, that I was being stronger for us BOTH. But in essence, it seems that I simply enabled poor choices and behavior to the point that she lost her desire to try, by the time that I had lost my ability to maintain nothingness.

By being stronger earlier, perhaps I could have instigated a situation which would have lent itself more to having her desire to do something for us, rather than subsist on finances and deceit.

You know it aggravates me to no end...

WHY DO I STILL LOVE HER?

Why do I still wish she would call or come over and want to talk about reconciliation? Why do I wish she would go to counseling for herself and ask me to 'hold on' and let her work through some issues on herself?

Man... see... even with all the crap, I am still the guy who is realatively steadfast. I read what I have written and it is true, why then do I still want to love so badly?

I know that if she ever read this posting, she would be angry because she would feel I am opening things to the public. That is not s person I could be with. I know that she would be angry because I felt this way, rather than SAD that I felt this way and wish to change it.

So WHY do I still feel that I could look past all this and forgive and ask forgiveness, if she would just work?

That is part of the problem I am facing right now. Despite the crap which has occurred in the last 3 weeks, I am in a defacto Plan B. And we know that plan B tends to preserve the love of the spouse. Unfortunately/fortunately I think it is working on me. Despite all the CRAP I know about and have rehashed, my basic instinct is to love. To love her daughters... to Love HER...

I think it is the disconnect which I find so difficult to understand. My love for her is not diminished, however, the dislike I have for her behavior is significant.

I believe that she has always loved me, however, her choices in how she chose to SHOW that love are so askew, that I wonder whether I have been truly ignorant, or whether her basic way of being and understanding is so severely outside my reality, that I cannot conceptualize it as anything other than brokenness needing love and support. I know that very early on, I felt that God had put her and her children in my life because I could be strong enough to maintain, as she grew. I realize that this was and still is, I guess as LA put it, somewhat abusive, in that I was not accepting of who she is, but what I thought she wanted/needed to become. It is just that even at this moment, I still see her as needing such love and support because she simply cannot see how her actions and choices completely negate and undermine what she 'states' she wants in life. It really makes me wonder whether I completely misread God's intention for me. I was a setup for her, because I wanted to be loving and felt that I could be good for someone. When she popped up, I really did feel like she was put there for me to be good to. Yes, it certainly was vanity, I can see that now, but I still must believe in, trust, and hope for divine work within my life. I felt that, unfortunately, my desires to love and ability to maintain were being used by God for the betterment of my wife, her girls, my boys, and also myself. Oh my word... how vain in all reality.

But I ask you... HOW... after you have fallen in love with a woman, and essentially adopted her daughters as your own, over the course of 18 months, HOW do you walk away when you realize that she has been lying to you in such a major way? I truly felt, when I found out about the origin of her second daughter, and the lies I had been told. I truly felt, that God was looking at me and asking, 'What are you going to do?' Are you going to forgive or walk away. To walk away, I would have had to walk out on my 'family' in my heart. I just don't have that mindset nor disability. Even though, it would have ultimately been the safest thing to do.

How do you look at yourself, and become willing to leave those you love, when the person you love is showing she is unwilling to love you in return. When you see the destruction she wreeks around her, and when she cannot see it herself?

How do you 'accept' it? I simply couldn't. I had to try to change it, and in so doing, I guess I was NOT good to her. But in my heart, it STILL feels as though I was trying to do what was right, not for myself, but for her and our family. Trying to help her to see her detrimental effects upon her daughters... I could have accepted that, but I really COULDN'T just accept it. The neglect I felt...I could have accepted it as part of her, but I couldn't.

LA... how could I NOT try to change the circumstances of our marriage? I know that MB says to do it from the inside, but when I did that, there was nothing but a bigger wrent in the dam, she became much more accepting of things I gave, but still little came back out. How do you accept the person without accepting the behavior... or vice versa? I always loved my wife, but so many of her actions were so opposed to my general way of being and thoughts, that I began to constantly feel somewhat repulsed by her. For instance, she began having an increasing friendship with someone whom she had previously termed as being a 'b*tch'... but after a little while, she began saying that SHE was ALSO a 'b*tch' and she LIKED IT!!! What do you do in that instance? When the person you see is NOT a person you can respect in any form or fashion?

I was caught between my love, which was solid and secure... and my feelings that the person I was married to was someone so completely different than who I had ASKED to marry me.

I have looked back on things so much, and simply can't see where I could have been different in a meaningful way? Expressing my needs and feelings only brought on contempt. And yes, Contempt is the correct word. She has a baseline contempt for most anything which causes her the slightest discomfort. Just TRY to find something more discomforting than a spouse...

I don't know how I could have dealt with her differently in a meaningful way.

Maybe our first counselor was right several years ago, when he said, 'Sometimes you just simply make a mistake.' This was from a very pro-marriage Christian couselor. It just still FLOORS me that she could 'want' at least I believe she wants about the same things that I want, and yet believe so differently about how to go about getting them... I just don't understand it at all.

Cant, you are approaching this from the mindset that your wife is emotionally healthy and capable of loving you (and others) in the way that you have loved her.

From what you have written and admitted you have seen in her, she is very disorderd and most likely has a personality disorder. She is not CAPABLE of loving you in a healthy way or of having a 'normal, healthy' relationship with you, no matter how much you tried or no matter what you did or didn't do. It's just not there for her!!!

Your grief process is normal because your love for her was real. I think she tried to love you and have a relationship with you, but you can't squeeze blood from a turnip...you cannot expect her to give something that she doesn't have or isn't capable of giving right now (or possibly ever).

To ignore that she is likely BPD (and thus incapable of being in a healthy relationship with anyone without INTENSE therapy) is like trying to pretend someone who has Alzheimer's still has a perfect memory and then being surprised when they score low on their MMSE.

You know Sidney... you are absolutely correct. It makes perfect sense in that I was never able to really connect with her, despite everything I tried. As soon as our marriage began things changed and it was a dramatic change. As soon as the rules changed and there was something really too lose, everything changed. It was exactly like I was asking for something which she literally couldn't give. Not because she didn't WANT to perchance, but even had she wanted to, she couldn't have because she didn't HAVE it to give.

Our MC said something similar, but in a bit of a less obvious form once, and it really hit me then, however, not as bluntly. He said "You are sitting here telling her what you need, and she is sitting there telling you 'she doesn't have it to give'." I HEARD that... and I have thought alot about it, but not in the same sense as you just stated it. When I heard it before, I was thinking she didn't have it because I hadn't been enough of what she needed to build it. However, I think that you are right and it is actually because as much as she wants to... she literally just doesn't have what I need. She tries to be loving, but her baseline anger surfaces so quickly, that it is hard to see the love through all the consternation and deceit. She tries to be honest, but she simply has no trust, therefore is unable to trust that she can be wrong but still be loved.

I had always thought that it was merely a choice to neglect me and my boys, mostly because she was able to do such a good job when we were dating. I still don't understand her ability and choices when we dated versus when we were married. I KNOW she could be loving towards my boys, but when I asked her directly she just 'wouldn't' I really don't think it was a 'couldn't' because she 'could and did' before. I still can put this variant behavior into place. She was certainly able and willing to be sexually fulfilling when we dated. Once again, this stopped almost immediately upon marriage. One thing which is actually consistent however, is her inability to talk or discuss anything about our relationship.

So... on the one hand... I absolutely agree that if she has a personality disorder or as the MC stated "Sure exibits alot of BPD traits at least" then all this discussion is moot. On the other hand, it is still difficult for me to wrap my head around the fact that at one point... she was so completely LOVING and KIND to both me and my kids. I guess that is part of the problem... but MAN... it is still so hard to adjust my thinking to.

Thanks for the Help Sid... I appreciate your feedback and thoughts more than you know. It really helps me to see what I am saying and incongruencies which I am unable to recognize.

I have thought so much about MY reaction to her and MY apparent inability to see the reality rather than what I HOPED would be reality.

My love is and has always been absolutely true. But I have wondered what it was based upon. I believe that it was based upon two things. One... it is WHO I AM first and foremost. I am a lover... regardless of what she might want to believe, my basic structure and how I look at the world is to be kind and love. I tend to see the 'good' far more often than the 'bad' in situations. I believe that I OVEREMPHASIZED the good things in our relationship early on and overly DE-EMPHASIZED the bad things. This combination resulted in a skewed view of our relationship, and I think that this has led me to 'believe' there was more 'good' at the beginning than at the end. When I think of why I loved her early on... I can relate a HUGE PORTION of that love to just a couple incidents.

One was while we were at my youngest son's baseball game. We were standing there, in the crowd of parents, watching the game. I had my arms crossed and she was to my right. She reached around me, pulled me close, reached up with her hand, turning my head down towards her and kissed me. A deep, strong, wet kiss right there in front of EVERYONE. She looked into my eyes, not saying a word. Hugged me close... then just kept her arm around me, holding me. THAT was a HUGE love bank deposit for me, and I think I kept chasing that Baseball kiss the rest of my relationship. Kind of like drugs... I knew it was in her, but never saw it again.

The second, was when we first took all our kids out together as a group. It was about a year after we met, and we were out at a pumpkin farm, getting pumpkins for Halloween. They have some play equipment there... we were all laughing and playing together. Everyone was enjoying everyone. She sat on a swing and my oldest boy, about 10 at the time, ran over and jumped on her lap. She laughed and gave him a hug. I snapped a picture and still have it hanging in my hallway.

I believe it was a few instances like these which made me believe she really cared in a way in which was incredibly meaningful to me. It was these sorts of things which still make my heart soar. But it was also these things which mitigated the neglect I felt during our marriage. I kept trying to 'chase that baseball kiss' thinking that was the REAL person, and I just had to be good enough to deserve that kiss again. I just kept thinking that if I was good enough, she would love and treat my boys like she had before.

It wasn't that we had NO good times during our relationship. It wasn't that we NEVER made love nor she NEVER was good to my boys. It was that those instances were too far and few in between to be relevant to LIFE. At least a happy one. I loved when she gave me hard thought gifts. She was a great gift giver. But that wasn't what I needed most from her, and she would not listen to me when I told her what I needed. So I felt neglected, although I am sure she thought she was giving 'just fine'. She was a great cook and I loved that about her. She made me so proud to be married to her for that reason, and yet, she would go off about a cashier, who she felt had slighted her, for hours

I just put too much weight on the few things which she did that I absolutely LOVED and not enough weight on the things she did which bothered me.

It scares me, because I don't want to be either hypercritical and non-accepting... nor the way I have been, seeing too little through Rose-colored glasses.

One thing I noticed, when I reread some of my posts from 07 was that the huge change in my wife appeared immediately upon us being married. HOWEVER, as I wrote it in 2007 I wrote that it seemed that she was angry all the time and I didn't notice it until I was WITH HER EVERY DAY. Which, obviously, only happened after we were married. Up until then, we saw each other on weekends and a night or two each week. We lived about 15 miles apart and both had kids, so most of the time, we were apart.

As I think about it now... that is correct. She could hold it together for the relatively little bit we saw of one another. However, when we were together WITH OUT CHILDREN, all under the same roof, it didn't matter HOW big the house was, things were going to happen. And it did...

I just feel so bad for her. I love her dearly, and I see her just slipping away. I would help her... I would love her while she sought help if she would. I would support her... because I love her and want to be a good husband to her, and a good daddy to our girls.

Word must have gotten out that I am getting a divorce. I have only told my secretaries and a couple of my partners, however, people have been acting differently around me. "How are you doing?" alot... I had a doctor call me, who hasn't talked with me in over 3 years I would bet. She called to ask a goofy question about her patient, and I really don't believe she wanted an answer, it was obvious and she is a good MD. But she lingered oddly, on the phone. Small talk from someone whom I haven't spoken to in probably 3 years??? God I hate this...

I don't WANT anyone else. I want my wife and family, but in a good way. I want my boys harrassing my girls as they run through the hallway. I want to come home and see my wife cooking supper and tell me about her day. Those things I had... and I really missed them today. The feeling of true love FROM my wife, I just didn't have, but I wish if she had it that she would want to learn how to show me. I wanted so badly to show her I loved her, but I just couldn't for the life of me, figure out how to do it so she could hear. I would give everything I own to just have a wife who wanted to WORK HARD at reconciliation. She can make me SO mad... SO dissappointed... SO ANGRY... but in the end... she is still my wife and I love her... and she has my heart, even if she doesn't want it, she has it.

Its been a tough couple of days. I think that my anger for how this all came about is diminishing, and my 'feelings' for my marriage have began to come back through. The abruptness of everything... the email to avoid all contact and the AVOIDANCE of all contact initially made me mad. I am still upset by it, no doubt, but the initial flare has subsided. I have not spoken to my wife in over a month. Not a word. I actually haven't spoken to her since the counseling session 3 days BEFORE she emailed me telling me she filed.

For everything that has happened... I still don't know what to think about the whole situation. Somedays it seems pretty clear... then others, I will realize that it makes no sense what-so-ever. Some days I will recognize the insanity of the situation, then others I will look at it all and feel nothing but sadness and love. Some days I can talk about it like it was 3 years ago, and then some days someone will ask how my 'kids' are doing and I will choke up.

I know its all normal... but that doesn't make it feel any better. When my first wife left during all her affairs, at least I could understand it. I didn't LIKE it, but I could understand the insanity she was living within. However, this time, it just makes no sense at all to me. I think about all the pain in the world, and then think about how much she and her girls are in, and look at it and wonder how THIS could be the answer, when her husband wants to work. THEN I realize that it isn't ME wanting to work it is her choice to walk away...

Man oh man... time and space... that's what I need... time and space...

Sometimes I think I should write or have written a 'pseudo Plan-B' letter explaining a 'way back' should she make that choice. She is the type of person who would THINK that I have quit, without really seeing the truth. But then I think what would I say? I would say the same thing I have said for 4 years. I would say the same thing I said in counseling 5 weeks ago, when she said "Nothing he hasn't said before"... so I KNOW she understands what would have to change for a marriage. I UNDERSTAND that fact logically... but emotionally, it just hasn't connected yet.

Heh... I think I will build a new deck and patio. That'll give me something to do which is relatively mindless.

Get out of your head for a while. Build that deck. Get your mind on something constructive (no pun intended).

Cant- I wanted to recommend a book to you that I just saw today on my lawyer's desk. It's called 'Splitting- Protecting Yourself When Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist' by William Eddy.

My lawyer deals with a lot of divorces involving people with personality disorders (imagine that!) and he highly recommended this.

I know your situation is still up in the air with your W, however it might be good to have on hand in case things eventually come to that. If you Google the title you can find it on a BPD website ($25).

Hope you're doing well!

Thanks Sidney...

I don't know where we are headed. I vacillate between being 'OK' with divorce to wanting reconciliation. It is hard not having spoken to her at all. I guess in some ways it is hard in others much easier. She has always melted my heart, and her absence has allowed me to calm myself in ways in which I couldn't have being invoved with her or even 'potentially' involved with her.

There is so much I absolutely DON'T understand, that it worries me, because if I don't understand what happened, then I can't avoid it in the future. This was the case throughout our relationship in that I felt as though I was floundering around in the middle of the ocean during a hurricane in the dark. I just never understood anything about what she wanted, regardless of how hard I was CONSCIOUSLY trying. I mean... I didn't just cruise through our marriage like it seems so many spouses are doing. I actively TRIED to talk, discuss, and interact with her. I actively tried to understand what she needed, even to the point of asking her directly several times, getting the answer "I don't know" or the ENs questionaire where it boilded down to me being 'mean' but doing about everything she wanted. BUT then I know she didn't FEEL like I was doing what she wanted.

I have thought alot about it, and realize that when she was put 'on the spot' or needed to give an example of something for me to do differently or improve upon, she could rarely find something to say about what I was doing. However, her FEELINGS were that I was failing on all points. But she couldn't get her feelings in line with the reality she was living. I believe it was a basic disconnect from reality in that she would get what she wanted, and still be unhappy with it, and therefore unhappy with me. But when queried about it, she couldn't logically explain where I was going wrong, just that I was in her feelings.

I understand that this is part of the 'issue' of how she interprets outside events. But it doesn't make it much easier when you count on A + B = C for you and almost everyone else, but for her A + B = X. There was nothing I could do which would ever get us on the same page. And as I look back, I did everything to the point of driving myself crazy trying to find the answer. Not realizing that there was no answer to be had, regardless of my willingness to find it.

I am better... much better. I have the lability still, but it is calming somewhat. I miss her, I miss the girls, I miss going out to dinner, having someone to think about, and I miss hugs. I am working on readjusting my life and activities. I realize how much I focused everything I did on her and trying to improve our relationship. I almost completely put ME to the side in the effort.

Today would be a good day to have someone loving me at home. Lots of crap going on and it would certainly make it easier to deal with if I knew I had a hug and a "Everything will be fine." waiting at the end of the day. I KNOW everything will be fine, but it would be alot better if I had someone I knew loved me right now. Thing is... I wouldn't have had much consideration when things were going well between us anyway. But I might have been able to get something...

Sometimes when I begin to rewrite history in my head... I have to remind myself to go back and reread what I wrote here for the last 3 years.

What is it about a person which allows you to so easily forget the bad things? I guess that perhaps in alot of ways, I am the OPPOSITE of so many people in that my baseline is to forgive and love. It has gotten me in all kinds of trouble. I begin thinking that maybe things weren't 'that bad' and in reality they weren't 'that bad' they just weren't 'much good' either. And nothing was changing except moving further and further apart.

Man it just breaks my heart though. I really thought that God had put us together... I really did. Maybe so, but I don't think so. I don't believe God would put us together, knowing or expecting us to divorce. But who am I to know... I know my heart... but my wife either wouldn't accept it (which is my belief) or couldn't understand it.

I have thought alot about things, and I realize that I fell in love HARD... with both her, but even more so with her girls. I love them with all I have, and it is killing me to not be around them. I see things all the time, which I want to remember to tell them during supper... but they aren't there.

I took my boys to the mall Mom-day shopping yesterday and saw so many things that I kept having that initial "I should look at that for T... Oh wait... she isn't mine any longer." That was a bit of a difficult shopping trip.

I guess the one thing which was better, is that I could look at the lingerie and not get a knot in my stomach. My wife would not wear lingerie after we married. She wore a silk teddy, which was beautiful, on this last V-day, but otherwise, nothing in almost 4 years. I would get sad each time I thought of her caring enough to wear something like what I would see in the window or on a rack. When I saw it last night, I almost had a bit of 'hope' in me, when I realized that perhaps, someday, someone would 'WANT' to wear it. I know it sounds like a shallow thing perhaps, however, I don't know why that 'care' for me meant so much to me. For my wife to care enough about my desires to wear a beautiful teddy or bra/panty set or anything sexy and it be just for ME... that always made my heart ache when I thought about just how EASY it all seemed and how her refusal felt like CONSCIOUS withholding. Had it been reversed and there was something she wanted me to wear... I would have owned the store by the weekend, if it would have made her happy. It just was so incongruent... so confusing...

OMG!!! I just read an article from Fred which almost exactly describes my wife. It is amazing, and had I read it 1-2-3-4-5-6 years ago, I wouldn't be where I am today. I recognized individual pieces of all this long ago,however I sequestered them so they wouldn't 'touch' and become overwhelming, essentially, I enabled their continuance by refusing to look at them in total, and only looked at them in individual 'bite sized and chewable pieces'. But still, I felt that I had been 'placed' in this situation and because I loved her and especially her girls, I kept thinking that it was something I needed to continue, because I was not the kind of guy who walks out on his family. Even though the girls weren't mine, I STILL felt every bit of love for them as I would have had they been my own.

But reading this article was such an eye opener. The only things about it which didn't fit were some of the helplessness, pity, and brainwashing of 'me' or the man.... I pray all the time for guidance... and you never know how HE is going to send it to you. I KNEW things were crazy, and I KNEW things made no sense. I never felt I was wrong about my perceptions, I simply thought I had to 'muscle through' because 'my girls and my wife' were in great need, and I was 'vainly' their best hope of success. I felt crazy some times, but it was a lucid crazy in which I UNDERSTOOD the problem, but just couldn't walk away, regardless, because of an ill-suited Knight in Shining Armor Complex (KiSAC).

Here is the article, and I wish there was a place which allowed it to be more accessable to readers. I think that ALOT of the people on here, MEN ESPECIALLY, could get some good out of reading the article. If anyone has any ideas on how it could be put in a place easier for someone lurking, to find, it would be beneficial I believe.

http://www.gettinbetter.com/anycost.html

There is also a version for WOMEN as well

http://gettinbetter.com/casanova.html

Had to Change my screen name... because I DID!!!

YOU KNOW I prayed for guidance and understanding everyday for several years but ESPECIALLY recently. Fred... whether you understand it or not... you were guided to add that post in the D/D thread... and I was guided there to read it.

Wow!!! A very timely breakthrough, huh? I have no doubt that you came across this info. at just the right time for it to have the most meaningful impact on your life. God knows what He's doing.

It seemed like you were already making good progress toward understanding that the problems in your marriage were really beyond you (with a BPD spouse, it always is), so it's great that you've now had this light-bulb moment to enforce it all. It was starting to become painful to see you beat yourself up again and again wondering what you could have done better or different or why she did the things she did, etc. etc. The plain fact is that she's BPD, and relationships with BPD's are just downright painful and impossible.

So I'm wondering...now what? Have you had any contact at all with your W? Do you have a plan? Is the ball in her court, or yours?

I do not have a plan at this moment. I have not spoken with her at all, which is fine in all actuality. Odd, and somewhat frustrating to be divorced via 'email'. But after reading more and more about BPD, I realize that it might not be the worst thing for me at all.

That website would have been worth millions to me every single day of my existance for the last 6+ years. I feel bad for her, but reading these articles, is almost like reliving my life. I have jumped up, dropping my laptop on the floor and said THATS HER TOO!!!! at least 20X tonight. I realize just how troubled she is and I wish I could help her, but been there, done that... no way am I going back now. I can finally see the REALITY of what I was up against. I can REALLY finally see that I could have been exactly what she wanted at any given time, and it wouldn't have mattered because she didn't have any standards for what she wanted. SHE didn't know what she wanted. I just kept thinking that if I did enough, she couldn't help but respond. Now I can see she didn't have a chance because of her baseline.

It is erie reading this, because I have written about 90% of these things just in this thread. I some I didn't recognize for what they were... like Tricotillomania; the ongoing compulsion to pull out facial hair (eyelashes, eyebrows, etc.) or body hair. Considered a facet of self-mutilation.She CONSTANTLY is tweezing something... even to the point that she tweezed her eyebrows almost OFF one time. She checks and tweezes at least 20x a day if not more. Always has a pair of tweezers close at hand. As I had been reading books/articles I kept thinking, 'Well she doesn't have self mutilation or suicidal ideation, but that is about it.' Well... it appears she does have the mutilation... just in a 'socially acceptable form'.

I am CONSTANTLY amazed at the number of OH CRAP... THAT HAPPENED ALL THE TIME's I keep running across. I can remember the exact incident and how I was thinking, "You are ust CRAZY!!!" But then I would look at my girls, remember my vows, and shoulder it on through. I feel for the girls... I really do, because I know she had a tough childhood, and it appears it might have been tougher than she either let on, or remembers, The girls are going to have something similar... hopefully not as bad, but learning from her inconsistencies is already affecting our (her) 7yo pretty badly, and the 11 yo is beginning to just 'dissappear' as in 'hide' in her room away from the drama.

Man, I do feel sorry for her. I do love her. But as I always thought in MY head... it was like loving a DRUG ADDICT. You do everything you can, and finally you realize that you have to just step back and let it go. Love doesn't have to stop, but you can remove yourself from the terrorism (as our MC calls it) of the situation.

I think I couldn't REALLY believe that BPD was real for HER. She seemed so different than my patients with BPD were back when I was a psychologist in the hospital. But... I worked with the socially dysfunctional ones... she functions in society just fine, because she and it can run away. Me as a husband, couldn't just BOLT. I had responsibilities and I WANTED those responsibilities, but I had no real idea that what I was working with COULDN'T make different choices. It is all so much better this evening, REALLY UNDERSTANDING THAT FACT!

iTS QUITE LITERALLY LIKE i WANT TO JUMP UP AND DOWN AND DANCE SINGING I'M not CRAZY... I'M not CRAZY... IT was real!!!

edit... clarity in purpose via Kaylalady.

The post served no purpose other than to help me to understand what I have witnessed. I do understand better now, and the post serves no further purpose.

Thank you Kaylalady...

While the diagnosis may be applicable in your situation, honestly speaking, many women have a few or many of these issues, who are still mentally and emotionally healthy for their situation.

That's why I CAUTION people here to be very careful about armchair diagnosis of their spouse.

ALL WAYWARDS ARE MENTAL!

Period.

The rest of us just have issues.

The label stops progress and assesses blame and allows for excuses.

And here's the clinker for you.

If I cared and had the time, I could pull out A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT diagnosis off the internet with a list of symptoms that would look very similar to your list here.

That gets scary.

Because what happens when someone in a position of power makes a false diagnosis or a misdiagnosis?

Lives get destroyed. Beyond repair.

I'm still picking up the damaged pieces from a misdiagnosis for someone I care dearly about who got labeled as paranoid schizophrenic when he had a bad case of workplace-related solvent intoxication-triggering bi-polar.

If your relationship with her is done, finito, no future ties to her via children, and the label gives you comfort, fine. But keep it to yourself. You could do more harm than good by letting it go any further.

If you do have ties to her, then deal with your need to have a diagnosis/label on her because the issue will harm you more than it will her, I assure you.

edit to add: if you feel the diagnosis makes her a danger to YOUR children, then get a court-ordered psych eval for BOTH of you, so that you can show you are willing to undergo the same fitness evaluation that you want her to go through. Let someone else who is infinitely more qualified than someone who can read a link on the internet to assess and diagnose.

I was not trying to diagnose her. I am trying to understand the last 6 years of my life WITH her.

But I appreciate your candor and thoughts. I agree, diagnosis is not up to me, nor do I want to deal with it. I only wanted to understand...

Thanks Kayla

The difference is that waywards are mental while they are in the fog of their affair, and their spouses are left seeing the huge difference between who they used to be and who they are now.

People with mental disorders are ALWAYS different, day in and day out and that can leave the people living with them desperate for answers as to why life feels so crazy all the time.

I'm a Clinician and I see the devestation that mental illness leaves in its wake every day. I don't feel like anyone in this case has made a careless diagnosis about Just's wife, as in reading his posts it is clear to see the pervasive features she's exhibited all throughout their marriage.

It's also clear that no matter what he tried (he's been on MB for years trying to make his marriage work) it just wasn't working. In the case of BPD, trying to apply MB principles (or any marital principles) is like giving someone cough syrup for a cough they've developed from lung cancer- no amount is going to stop the cough because the true problem, hidden deep within, is MUCH bigger and more problematic.

I know how important that diagnosis can be for families living with BPD because they finally 'get it' as to why their lives have been turned upside down despite everything they do to try to make it better. The diagnosis isn't needed for revenge or legal reasons (usually) or to rub it in their faces, the diagnosis is needed for peace of mind to finally understand what has really been happening in their lives and why!

You're right - diagnosis is important to the family. But it's also important that it be done by a clinical psychologist, with the proper tools to accurately assess the problem?

Have you ever seen the devastation to the family that has an amateur label the patient first, then everybody else sees the label, and are then biased in their observation tests to see that label, rather than think independently?

I have. I've watched what that family and that patient had to go through afterwards.

Amateur diagnosis is the issue here, Sidney - not that there shouldn't be one done by a professional.

I agree that a false diagnosis can be devastating to both the individual and the families involved and I'm sorry you had to witness this first hand. And I also agree that a true diagnosis can only be done face to face by a Clinician.

I don't believe Just is looking for an official diagnosis to 'put his crazy wife away' for to 'take her down in court', etc. He's looking for explanations as to why his life has been turned upside down throughout his marriage.

When I came here, I presented the facts about what my WH had said and done before he suddenly moved out, and there was not a person on MB who did not immediately recognize that he was having an A. How did they know this without solid proof? Because they themselves had lived it, they've studied it and they've read about numerous others who have lived through the same exact thing. I believe we can do this with not only A's, but with other issues as well (like mental illness). If the signs are there, why not point them out to help steer a person in the right direction?

Just like MBers are quick to recognize wayward behavior, BPD is not difficult to recognize when someone is familiar with the signs and behaviors involved. Is it an official diagnosis? No! Does it offer some peace of mind as to what the truth is and where to turn to for help? Yes, I believe it does.

But there are other explanations for BPD behavior than BPD. Just like bipolar can look like schizophrenia.

edit to add:
The important thing to realize is that something is off and it has little or nothing to do with you, nor can you fix it. Once you've accepted this, you can put together an action plan for yourself and act accordingly without waiting for a mentally ill person to change or get help.

Amen!

I am a physician and I was a psychologist before I went to Medical School. It is odd how it is so much easier to see issues when you are NOT involved within them, compared to looking at them from the inside.

While all my knowledge doesn't give me the right nor the desire to diagnose, I have lived WITHIN this mess, blinded by my emotions. Even when Sidney pointed out the book about BPD and I read it and STILL I understood that this seemed applicable, but in some ways I remained hesitant. Hesitant to be willing to do just what you said Kayla, LABEL. I don't care about a label, but just as my patients need to understand what is happening with their body, I needed to understand what had happened with my life and marriage.

Physical ailments which are NOT diagnosed or understood by the patient or the doctor can be the absolute worst type of problem, regardless of the symptoms. Because it is not UNDERSTOOD. The patient knows something is 'wrong' but no one can give him an answer, so the frustration is sometimes worse than the actual problem itself.

For me, I really did consciously try everything I could think of, MB, counseling, read every relationship book and attempted to implement, etc. Nothing I did made any difference what-so-ever. It was the same as a patient who searches doctor after doctor, looking for someone who can tell him what is wrong, and every one of them say 'this should work, but it doesn't, I don't KNOW what is wrong.' Then those patients can believe it is all in their head, and sometimes the DOCTORS can believe it as well. This is the basis of the frustration, and was the same for me.

WAS I implementing MB principles? Was I doing it well? The outcome was not occurring appropriately, therefore, all points stated I WASN'T doing what I needed to be, and being that I was ACTIVELY WORKING AT IT, and CONSCIOUSLY AWARE of my actions, attempts, and failures, I had begun wondering whether it was truly 'all in my OWN head'. Although, I didn't believe it, I couldn't get my head around the fact that it really did seem that we lived on different planets, but in the same house. Our perception of reality were so drastically different, that I began doubting what I KNEW to be true, simply because I had someone I cared about vehemently stating that I was WRONG.

I KNEW I wasn't, but there began to be more and more doubt within me, simply because A + B =/= C no matter how much it made sense that it should.

When I read that website, finally, all the balls I had up in the air, tossing around, trying to keep alive, dropped into place. I read my LIFE over the last 6 years on a single page. The things I encountered were written almost verbatim, and countless instances welled up within me, finally all abutting one another.

I had lived my life, segmenting and sequestering incidents, I believe in an effort to maintain my family rather than the good of my life. I couldn't allow the 'craziness to touch' because while I could handle each incident separately, I knew that if I looked at everything together or even just a couple together, I would break and know that this whole thing was wrong. But when I read that page, and memories came flooding back at each new point, I finally was able to acknowledge that reality was REALITY. I HAD to look at everything together. I had to acknowledge the *Hypersexuality or asexuality (non-sexual--especially after marriage). *Lying and deceitfulness, mixed messages, self-contradicting.*Projection; when they assign their own deficits/faults, to you.*Seductive/sexual up until marriage, or the relationship gets solidified.*Selective memory *Splitting; idealizing or devaluing behaviors.*Intense, irrational abandonment fears/concerns.*Dissociated, disconnected, shut-down, 'checked out' or numb.*Unstable/rapidly-shifting patterns of relating; *Crazy-making interactions. Poor comprehension skills, lacks common sense.*A desperate need for attention/approval *it's always (supposedly) your fault. etc etc etc... all on a single page. As I read that, and moved to the next, and the next etc. I was bombarded with memories of each and every one of them, and there was no sequestering any longer.

Things just finally made sense, and the weight of MY inability to make things work lessened substantially. My understanding about how I stayed made much more sense. MY understanding of why nothing had a reasonable outcome, despite everything being done 'by the book' became more clear.

The diagnosis is less important to me, than the TRUE INNER understanding of the issue, and why I FAILED. This personal failure was the REAL ISSUE for me. I just couldn't get my head around the fact that I, CFIO, couldn't make it work. I guess that is vain, but it is like potting a plant, fertilizing it, watering it, ensuring sunshine, etc and it constantly is spindly and about to die. THEN finally finding out that the altitude does not support this particular plant, and there was NOTHING you could have done which would have made any difference, because it was something OUT OF YOUR CONTROL, no matter how much you thought you could control.

THAT is what this means to me. The REALISTIC UNDERSTANDING, DEEP DOWN... I had thought I had understood before, but I believe that was superfically. Last night, it all hit me like a ton of bricks, one after the other in a perfect time frame and state of mind, which allowed for the REALITY to be there. As Sid said,

Thank you for sharing. That makes sense and I get the relief you feel now.

I grew up with a crazymaking mother. She cheated on my dad - I witnessed it as a toddler - and she spent most of my pre-ten childhood either trying to shut me up with some kind of insane "you have a great imagination" kind of thing, or outright physical abuse, when a gossipy neighbor befriended me and Mom was afraid she'd pump me for information and get it.

It would be such a relief to have an explanation for why someone would do that to her own daughter. After college, I worked in a clinical setting for a while along side a clinical psychologist. It was then that I started opening up about memories Mom had labeled as "dreams" and "imagination" and confronted her. She still has no clue what her adultery did to me as a toddler and child, and no recollection of the magnitude of the abuse.

But thankfully, the family member who was mislabeled came at a time in my life where I could support him in getting the help he needed and fight the mislabel that occurred. (it happened while I was working in that clinical setting).

Every time I want to label my mother as bipolar, I go back to the principles I practiced years ago; I'm not qualified to diagnose my mother. The label doesn't help her get better. It makes me judgmental about her and dismissive of her.

As you look into the future, is there any reason for you to have ongoing contact with her - like children? If not, is your plan to wash your hands of this relationship completely, and take the lessons forward?

While I agree about labeling. There are times when the label makes all the difference. It allows for understanding as well as directs appropriate or more directed treatment. It also allows for recognition of expected behaviors and how those behaviors typically manifest and often what those behaviors mean. In Bi-polar disorder, understanding the manic and dysthymic/depressive modes allows for understanding outside of normal circumstances. ie There doesn't HAVE to be a understandable reason for someone to be acting the way they happen to be acting at any given time.

Ignoring diagnoses and the understanding inherant within, in an effort to 'maintain' neutrality simply because you don't have a 'degree' can be as devastating as mislabeling.


IMO

I don't know - I think my Al-Anon training kicks in at some point. My mother would never consent or submit to a psychological screening. She's an expert at gaslighting. Because I see it and got the worst of it, I live the furthest away from her. I'm the only child who can't be at her side in a matter of minutes - for me it's hours. We didn't speak for three years at one point. I won't be manipulated, dominated or controlled by her illness.

She's not as whacked out now - I'm guessing menopause eased some of her symptoms. And bi-polar also imitates other personality disorders and mental illnesses, so while she manifested the extreme cycling when I was a child, she also appeared to be enough in control in public that I really felt crazy.

I think for me, I'll leave the diagnosing up to the professionals, recognize there is an abnormal current running her and keep my distance - someone was talking about loving detachment on another thread - that's what I have to do.

I agree with both of you.

Regardless of labeling/diagnosing...the actions of your WW are the same.

It's the actions.

And Kayla's experience with gaslighting is what your WW was doing...saying she wasn't doing what she was doing while she was doing it.

Hugely validating. Sans diagnoses/labeling.

Hugely validating.

She really was doing. Period.

You aren't crazy and neither was Kayla. And you both figured it out...

one of you, Just.



Grateful to God...and no wonder you were struggling so much with your addiction to your WW, JFIT...because that's what this gaslighting dance becomes, in really subtle ways...we know that dance, even when we don't know we're dancing it...and you're gonna miss it, the exhilarating parts (not the crashes), and even the mis-defined reality...just for awhile.

And in glimpses, you won't. I do believe God is in the works, in your marriage, and there for you. Not ignoring, not neutral...he's at work. And he works.

LA

The funny thing is that since I read those articles, and was hit with EVERYTHING all at once, I have been so much more relaxed and calm. It is like I finally have the 'diagnosis' of my sick marriage, and with that knowledge, it is OK and completely 'deal-with-it-able'. I can't believe the change in my 'mental state' given the understanding which I gained just reading those articles. In fact, it was really the TOTAL acceptance which allowed me to see what has been occurring.

It does make me worry why it is that I 'allowed' it to occur. I SAW EVERYTHING which was occurring, however, I cut it up and put in little 'managable' boxes, not allowing each box of 'crazy' to touch the others. This allowed me to think of only one thing at a time, which allowed me to manage them. I always KNEW it wasn't right, and I never thought things were 'good' since our wedding night. HOWEVER, I just kept thinking that I was put here because I was strong enough to deal with it, as she worked it all out.

I NOW realize that I could have been made out of GRANITE and had the patience of Job, and Nothing would have changed. The only change occurred when I quit allowing myself to be walked on and manipulated. I had finally, after 3 years, reached even MY breaking point. And when I did, I quit playing the games she was manipulating me with. THAT was when SHE couldn't take it any longer. When I quit playing, she couldn't tolerate the 'REALITY' of life, and had to bolt. I believe that is why she could never go to more than 3 sessions of MC together. The first 2 were kind of 'historical' but when the 3rd rolled around, and it became "Work", she just didn't have the 'work' in her toolbox, so she had to bolt. When I finally learned how to not be as reactive to her 'fury' and just worked right on through her craziness, she was at a loss and had to leave. She had no other choice and had to do it before she was 'found out'.

I have read about Borderline Personality Disorder for a couple years. It was just that MY perception of Borderlines, were those whom I worked with in the LOCKED WARD of the hospital when I was a psychologist. She was basically functional, so it was much harder to interpret her as exhibiting Borderline Traits rather than just basic 'crazy wife pissed at her husband' traits. But when I REALLY began reading, more and more things began to merge, and when I finally read the page where my LIFE over the last 6 years had been written, I REALIZED just how much I had been blocking from consciousness.

Now that I DO realize it, it is odd, because the Angst of my LOVE for her is no longer apparent. I love her, but it feels like a completely different way than I did before. I can recognize the things which I 'thought' were her LOVE were in a large part, simple manipulation of me in order to gain something for HER. NOT LOVE OF ME and FOR ME. Given that revalation, I can see so much less connection than I had before.

My MC (IC now) and even my preacher said that they felt that our marriage hadn't really ever 'taken hold' or 'put down roots' and that is so very true. It is almost like I WASN'T actually married, and that is sad to the extreme. It wasn't that I didn't love her, but it is that the community and connection between Lovers, Husband and Wife, and Mother and Father were NEVER THERE. It was almost like we were 'playing marriage' rather than 'being married'.

So my current calm is quite nice. I hope it is a beginning rather than transient.

I am feeling so much better, it is hard to explain. I just feel 'different'. I am still sad about my marriage because I love my wife. However, the freedom of understanding why nothing I did ever had the effect it 'should' have has so changed my baseline confusion, that I can now recognize just how badly things were, almost constantly.

I recognize that I no longer have the baseline 'anxiety' which I had almost constantly while married. I was always checking, testing, thinking about, trying to avoid, trying to improve EVERYTHING that I had even the smallest amount of control over, in an effort to improve our marriage. This might sound good, however, I was spending so much EMOTIONAL energy on all of this that I simply couldn't maintain. EVERYTHING had the option to either be 'good' for our marriage or more often "BAD" for our marriage. I don't have that sense any longer. I don't have the dread of 'screwing up' no matter what I do. I don't have the dread of unfulfilled ENs with little thought that they will ever BE MET. I didn't realize how much this was drawing me down, but it really was. I was avoiding all sorts of 'life' because I didn't want to feel the 'let down' of a Potential EN MEETING, being ignored once again.

It is still sureal. Just boom... OVER... no contact. Just like a death I suspect. It does kind of worry me, in that since I have realized so much, I have truly felt 'moved on'. It just doesn't seem 'RIGHT'. It seems like it should have taken MORE pain and MORE difficulty. Believe me, there was alot, and maybe that is the difference. I didn't have the rug pulled out from under my feet this time. I never even got ONTO the rug to begin with. So maybe the trauma and trouble I felt during my first divorce, which hit me so hard and fast, has been occurring for so long, that the 'recovery' phase is much less severe simply because I have been living the 'trouble' all along.

But anyway, I feel alot better than I did WHILE married and certainly immediately afterwards. I really miss my girls, but I believe that it is better this way. I simply cannot have contact with them, in a reasonable form, without getting sucked into my wife's world. I KNOW I couldn't, and I would be back to trying to make things better, for her and the girls, putting myself under the wheels in the process, once again.

Hey Just, I'm glad to hear that things are going well and that you're feeling better.

You do a really good job of writing/expressing your thoughts and feelings and I appreciate reading about your progress. Our situations are actually pretty similar (I've wondered if WH was BPD for years, but it's so hard to really believe it even though I dx and treat mental illness as a career!)- so I can relate to a lot of what you write, on both a professional level as well as a personal one.

I think it's probably pretty normal that you feel you have 'moved on' with your healing so quickly because so much of your pain and struggle was spent while you were still IN the marriage, trying to fix things that just couldn't be fixed. Now that you've made sense of things and understand why those things couldn't be fixed despite your best efforts, I hope you continue to heal and grow.

Quote from one of my friends about this situation...

We were talking about dating etc. He was baffled by how things were so skewed. He couldn't understand how I could have missed the problems when we were dating. I told him that what I saw early, I assumed was real, and what I saw later I assumed was because I wasn't doing what I needed to be doing to cause her to feel how she felt EARLY on.

When I told him how things were early on and then the way things changed...

He said...

"You were being you... and she was being you. That was the problem."

And that was absolutely the truth. SHE was being ME. She was taking on the things I LIKED as her own, and I was ignorant or blind to the fact that those things were not HER, just a reflection of ME which she was portraying.

My word... no WONDER I felt so confused about everything all along... I fell in love with a portrayal of myself. There is no wonder I felt like we fit together so well.

I'm sorry--it's not really funny, but I snorted anyway when I read your last 2 sentences. What a deft way of describing what happened. As an RN of almost 41 years, I only hope your charting has such clarity!

tl

Heh... Thunder... it is amazing at how much more succinct I can be while charting.


.............


I have been giving things alot of thought for the last 2 months. I am at a pretty good place, overall. I miss my girls terribly, and have some days which are certainly worse than others. However, I know that I can't have any contact with them because I could not stay out of the tangle of my wife's world.

I feel so badly for her. I love her and further more I actually CARE ALOT about her. If there was a way in which she could ever see her issues and really work them out, I would STILL stay with her. However, I have absolutely no thoughts that it will occur. I no longer say this out of guilt. I no longer say this out of hope. I don't do it for manipulation or fear of being alone. I say it simply because it is true. The woman I love and care for is not capable of loving me back in a meaningful way. That understanding has allowed me a unique view of both her and MY future.

My first marriage was rocked by lies, adultery, and blindness to the world. It was easy to be angry and feel the strings which held me to her, to be cut by each and every intereaction. Everytime I dealt with her, it literally felt as though more strings were cut. Now, however, I just don't feel many strings at all. I think they were cut or never formed during our marriage. We simply had so much trouble for so long, that they were cut long ago or simply what I felt had been there, was more because of my OWN sense of responsibility and DESIRE for them to be there. NOT because they were ever formed.

So now, it is easy... perhaps easier, once again, than I would ever think it should be. I remained concerned that it could simply be reactionary, however, I don't believe so. I no longer think about my marriage much, and although I absolutely do miss having a 'wife' I can clearly see that I never had a 'wife' in the sense that I would miss. The wife I had was a person who did several things a wife would typically do, however, ignored so much of the most IMPORTANT things a wife would do, that without her, I feel like I have not been missing very much. That might seem cruel, and I am sure if she reads this, she will read it with the worst possible slant to it. That is not what I am meaning however. I am meaning that we have led such separate lives for so long, that the few ways in which we intereacted were NOT the important ones for me. I constantly TRIED to gain those important interactions, however, she would have nothing to do with it. Therefore, the things which she DID DO, were not the important ones for me, therefore, there are not those things to 'miss'.

I wish it was different. I wish she had wanted to be the person who fulfilled my ENs. However, she was not, and I am finally OK with that fact. I no longer take the responsibility for her actions upon myself. I no longer believe that 'had I been doing something different, better, perfect... she would have been responding normally'. I recognize that I DID do things pretty damn well, and there was no response. And understanding WHY this was the case, allows me to move on without all the animosity I felt for my first wife. My first wife made the CHOICE to be the way she was/is and to act in that fashion. My second wife, God love her, is just the way she is, and although it certainly is her choice to act the way she does, it is based upon a personality disorder which precludes her from even seeing she HAS a problem, much less recognizing that her view of circumstances could be skewed.

I finally realize asking her to LOVE me in a way which was meaningful to ME, is akin to asking her to jump off the ground and FLY. I can ask, explain, read about, etc. in every way I can in order to explain that I would like her to fly, but she just does NOT have that ability. She might even go so far as go through the motions, but in the end, she just doesn't have what it takes to fly... any more than she has what it takes to Love me in a way which I understand and feel.

This understanding has allowed me to be OK with all of this. Yes, I remain saddened, because I do care about her. But I also realize that it does not matter one bit what I feel. And that is finally OK.

Heh...

All kinds of hell is about to break loose around here, and for some reason rather than dreading it I am almost giddy.

It makes no sense... maybe it is just that so much has changed recently, that I feel so good about actually having a future rather than simply being worn down by the past.

Regardless, I am blessed to have 2 great boys and a great job. I have opportunities which most only dream about and a loving mom and dad. Lots going to happen in the next couple of months, and for some reason, I just want to sing, workout, and paint. If I was looking at myself from the outside, I would say that I was in denial. However, I clearly recognize everything which is happening in my life, but I am simply not 'worried' about it.

My dad has Prostate CA and is having surgery in a couple weeks. I am confident he will be fine. I have a divorce to finalize, hopefully soon. Child support laws drastically changed in my state and I might be paying double what I pay now, even though I have half time custody.

And when I look at everything... I am a lucky man.

I have come to look at everything which happens in life as colors. The good and the bad are simply colors within my life. And with ALL the colors, my life becomes a painting with more character and brilliance. Without the bad (dark) colors, it would be difficult to understand the bright (good) colors. Because, if you paint... you know that the best way to 'highlight' something, is to add a shadow to help bring it out. Without the shadows in life... our lives would be a canvas of only a couple bright colors. And while that 'sounds' good, it is boring and insubstantial.

I pray every night and thank God for ALL the experiences in my life. I look at everything as God putting another 'tube of paint' in my box, allowing me to express myself 'just that much better' with a more worldly view.

The more a man knows, the more he forgives. - Confucius

Things have been going pretty well lately. Lots of 'crap' coming up I suspect, but all in all, nothing which isn't to be expected and nothing which is any worse than what has happened before. At least there is an end in sight at this point.

Some things I have been really thinking about which have concernend me have come to some sort of 'thought' resolution. I have been tormenting myself, even with the understanding of my wife's personality disorder, about what to 'expect' or at least 'believe' depending upon what a man does in life.

Basically, it is because over the last 3-4 years, I have 'been' the person women are constantly talking about wanting. I was being that person for my wife, no others, and because on the baseline... that is just 'who I am'. I have remained in counseling, and basically my counselor believes my main issue is that... I am NOT SELFISH ENOUGH! He says that I have been to forgiving and willing to forego love coming TO ME while continueing to GIVE LOVE.

This is correct in a sense. I was certainly willing to continue to be loving, kind, generous, etc... all thinking that if I was ENOUGH of those things, my wife would respond. I constantly put that upon myself, as my wife's failure to respond was directly related to my inability to do what I needed to be doing. This was despite her inability to point at anything which I was doing 'wrong', it was just that actions didn't result in relatively expected outcomes.

I liken it to dropping a ball from an outstretched hand. Everyone will tell you that the outcome from doing so will be that the ball falls and hits the floor. Simple, drop the ball, it will hit the floor. No ifs, ands, or buts. However, my marriage felt like me dropping the ball, and sometimes it would shoot up towards the sky... sometimes veer off to the side, sometimes dip and then ascend again... and RARELY it would actually 'hit' the floor. Over and over again, I would drop the ball and the expected or reasonable outcome would not occur. And on those rare occasions in which it 'did' occur, I put all my heart and far too much care on THOSE rare instances as being the 'true' state of the overall situation.

My marriage was like that... in that I would do the 'things' people all over the world would say I should be doing, and the consequence of those actions would NOT be as intended or for the most part even remotely similar. On the rare occasion that the stars, moon, and planets all did align, and she actually seemed like she understood and valued me, I ended up putting far to much emphasis that these rare occasions were the 'real her' and all the other crap was just that... 'CRAP'.

Now, I worry... and wonder... whether the things I did were actually what I thought I was doing and whether the things I do naturally, are the things women say they really want. I am naturally giving... and not enough naturally 'taking'. I KNOW I want things, but am willing to give regardless of anything coming towards me. Now, this is where I am currently having some problems, because my Christian faith says that I am doing what I should be doing. However, it has failed me, in my execution of it, twice now. My counselor says that I tend to fall in love with women who are needy and are very good at taking, but who have little if any ability to give. Thus they fit perfectly with my willingness to give without much receiving.

However, this is where it is hard for me. I WANT LOTS... but have not chosen women who consistently GIVE LOTS. I Give LOTS and have found women perfectly willing to receive that giving. Early on, my wife acted like she was giving. She actually WAS VERY giving, however, I see that this was not her baseline, it was merely her TRYING to be what I needed. She reflected back to me, who I was. However this was not her.

Now I wonder how do I avoid this in the future? How do I avoid 'getting what I want' in a relationship, when it isn't real??? I made the mistake of telling my wife what I wanted in a wife, early on. And she GAVE that to me. But it wasn't who she was, and she couldn't make it part of her, so immediately upon marriage it halted. How do I trust that someone ELSE might actually BE A GIVING PERSON, and want to give to me, the things I desire, as I give HER the things she desires?

Man... it is enough to make your head spin. I am a very trusting person at heart... to my detriment up to now. NOW I find myself being worried about my very nature. The very things about me which I should be proud of have been taken advantage of by two different women. It scares me, because I want to be giving, kind, generous, loving, romantic, exciting, etc. But I want those things from my lover/wife/etc as well, but I want her to BE those things inside herself, not merely acting like that on the outside to catch me.

Ugggghhhhh.....

My IC (MC) says it is tragic... he doesn't often have someone in counseling for being 'too nice'.

Any tips on dealing with repeated lies during the divorce? She has jumped off the deep end.

Off to court, I am not playing this back and forth lying crap.

Did you happen to get the book "Splitting" (protecting yourself when divorcing BPD)???

Unfortunately, the lies are par for the course when dealing with BPD.

Keep very good documentation about every contact you have with her (dates and details) to help protect yourself. Better yet, try to not have conversation or contact with her at all and if you must, not without having an honest (mentally healthy) witness present.

Does your lawyer know she's BPD? I actually saw the book 'Splitting' on my lawyer's desk, you might want to present the issues that you will more than likely be facing with your W to your lawyer as a head's up.

JFIO

Your story really moved me.
You chose the words to describe exactly what I have lived.

If I only love enough, eventually some of the love must come back to me.
If I could only be helpful and kind enough, the other person will eventually trust me.
If the other person would only understand how it hurts he/she will stop doing that.
If...

Talk and self-help books only work for spouses which are fairly normal. The gaslighting, the entitlement, the lack of love, the lies, the fact that you start doubting yourself, if it is really your fault... After having spent way too many years trying to love a narcissist into a warm-hearted person, I could write a book (or two). (By the way NPD and BPD have overlapping characteristics, you might want to have another look at the DSM IV concerning your ex.)
You probably know the famous experiment of the little monkeys which grew up without their real mother, and who clutched unto the fur or unto the iron mother. In hindsight I was hanging unto the iron-wired mother, trying to melt a lifeless rock into a real person. You cannot love somebody like that back to health. It is a bottemless pit. Sad for you, but even sadder for them. They will never know the reason for their unhappiness.

I am an M.D. too. I was amazed how easy a relationship could be once I found my true love. How easy it is too be with a normal person. You can't imagine. After years having done everything in every book and having sore knees from praying. It was like having struggled though thick mud and suddenly discovering you can fly!
You might want to read Dr Joe Carvers Articles: Love and the Stockholm Syndrome (as to why you stay too long) and Signs you are dating a loser http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/IdentifyingLosers.html



Some quotes which I found applicable:

There are no victims, only volunteers � Dr Phil

if i could only make him/her understand what he/she is putting me through... They do understand and are making it perfectly clear to you that your needs do not matter to them. - Wayne and Tamara Mitchel

forgiveness does not mean that you put someone in the position to let them coninue to hurt you. - Wayne and Tamara

If a person is nice at first and then turns nasty, the easiest explanation is that they weren't nice to begin with and succeeded to hide that for some time. (Instead of the other way around.)
Sometimes the first impression you had from a person is not the real them. They were just pretending and manipulating long enough so that you would be captured. - me

If you go into a relationship with a loving heart and honesty and the other person sets out to deceive and manipulate and lie to you, you will in all probability not see through it as an honest person. It is not your fault. - Oprah (to the woman who had a relationship with a nice man... who murdered his pregnant wife while dating this woman)

People will always give themselves away with the stories they tell about themselves and by what they brag about. - Dr Joe Carver

So when you vote for a politician, or hire an employee, or choose a neighbor or a date: don�t ask yourself if they are charming or make you feel good. Ask yourself if they listened and thought about what you said. (Note from me: in the beginning they can listen to you, until they know what makes you tick, so they can manipulate you. Listen to the stories from how other people treated them (badly of course, they were the innocent victims of their environment) Look for examples of when they learned from making a mistake (you can even ask them that question). Ask what their self-doubts are. Charm can interfere with your objective observations and even your negative gut feelings.
Beware! Never stop paying attention and thinking. That�s what pathological narcissists do. It�s not surprising that what offends us most about them is that they are rude, uncaring, and �thoughtless people.� I think that�s the key difference between healthy narcissism and Narcissistic Personality Disorder:� thoughtfulness. - Bill Eddy


In general: beware of people who have a history of being mistreated and are pityfull beings, or who tell you over and over about their problems. Run, you are not their therapist. Let them find someone else to deal with their whining. You had better choose someone who is cheerful and has a realisticly positive outlook for the future. Someone resilient and dependable who can pick herself up after falling.
I also made the mistake of wanting to rescue people. You can't rescue them, they will only drag you down with them. Let them join a self-help-group. Nowadays I run from disfunctional people, because it does not work that way and you know as a licensed psychologist, that you cannot treat someone to which you have too close a connection.

I wish you all the happiness in the world. In 2 years from now you will be more of your true self than you have been in the last years. I am certain, that you will not make the same mistake. You will have learned and naturally be more cautious.
I wish you God's blessing.

This is the thing about which I am most fearful. I was played maximally, I can see that now. I just hope that my head works better. I really MUST develop my ability to walk away from lies. I had that opportunity so many times, but I kept believing that she would 'see the light' and see how good things could be.

I appreciate your thoughts and your encouragement. I ESPECIALLY appreciate the fact that you have found someone who loves you in a GOOD and APPROPRIATE way! This makes all the difference to me, that someone like me, with similar issues, has learned from them, and found a way to NOT repeat the same behaviors.

In my gut I KNOW that there are women out there who are loving, kind, and honest. It is just that, my choices have thus far been to be drawn to the ones who simply 'PRETEND' to be so. My fear is two fold... that I WON'T be able to walk away if I see things which are bad... or that I will be TOO QUICK to walk away, because I am gunshy.

I have no fear about trying again, I am just not sure how long and what it will really take to learn to trust. I am hopeful and actually excited to find out. I have lived too many years without any love of substance. I relish the thought that there might be a woman out there who in her heart, wants what I have to offer, not just the finances I can earn. I think I am going to invent a little LED screen which stays over everyone's head. It will have readouts on a scale from 1 - 10 on different attributes of the person. ie, Honesty, integrity, work ethic, ability to love, etc etc. This will allow everyone to simply look over the person's head, and determine if they are someone who they wish to become involved with.

Signed the final papers today.

Mixed emotions... alot of sadness but mostly because it is just sureal in the way that everything occurred as well as trying to think about my entire marriage.

I go back and forth understanding and then unbelieving how my actions could have had no good effect upon her behavior. I had always believed, and married her believing, that I could Love her enough for her to return to the person she had been when I asked her to marry me. I recognize the folly. I recognize that the person I 'remember' was never real, but a shell... a chameleon color if you will, that could only be held so long.

But... regardless... what little marriage we ever had is no more.

I have been feeling so much better... my relationship with my boys has improved greatly, without me trying to ride the fence between her and them. We have had time to do alot of things which we could never have done before as well.

I just have to keep my head on straight. I have been getting pressure from several corners to begin dating, and while I really want to, I know that at this moment, I am probably far to vulnerable to anyone who actually could show me TRUE attention, not the Take alot give alittle, which I have had for so long.

It blows my mind, when I read on here sometimes, listening to WOMEN talk about how much they care and try to love their husbands. The lengths they will go to improve their marriage and themselves. I have just never seen that in reality outside of my mom and dad. Both of my wives were truly maximally takers, and it completely blows my mind to understand FINALLY... that they are NOT the only thing out there. That thier behavior and choices are NOT representative of all women. It lightens my heart and fills me with hope. Hope that there is someone out there who will truly love me and want to give that love TO ME rather than merely be good enough to get everything out of me.

But... today... (well basically) I am free.

Final and official.

Man... it still just breaks my heart.

To be so willing to give... to be so willing to love... to be so willing to forgive... to love her daughters as my own... to be so willing to protect them all... to be so willing to provide everything for them all...

and for it to be completely thrown away...

I have taken a while to try to get my head around my life. Trying to understand what has been going on and what needs to change in order to learn from the experience.

I believe I have found a major issue within myself, which has led me to the attraction to my Borderline Ex and my inability to walk away when I knew it was the best for both of us.

I found the book No More Mr. Nice Guy, by Robert Glover. Truthfully, it has changed my outlook on what I have been doing. And ladies, NO... it isn't a 'how to be a [censored]' book at all. It is based upon what is coined the 'Nice Guy syndrome' which fits me to a T. I put up with so much bad behavior from BOTH of my exs, and my reaction was that I needed to be doing better. If I was 'good enough' they would respond, and since they weren't responding, this merely meant I wasn't good enough. I gave and gave and gave, without anything in return, and my assumption remained that I hadn't given enough. I backed up further and further, and even when my feet were on the cliff face, I felt it was my duty and responsibility to find a way to back up further.

This is the basis of the book and within it, I have read my basic biography from childhood to the current day.

Men, I would recommend you read the book and see if it represents you. I know that I have read so many Posts by so many men on these boards, which sound so much like myself, I really think that if nothing else, reading the book is a possibility in finding a direction.

I will post a separate post in the coming days with more information about it. I just wanted to update you on what is going on with me and let you know that I am well... and actually for the first time, feel that there is a definite light at the end of my personal tunnel.

Glad you are on the recovery path. Is there a "No More Mrs. Nice Guy" version? I usually write up my niceness to being the "middle child" -- the pleaser.

FYI, There is a thread about this very book over on Marriage Builders 101. The name was changed. It was started by Barbiecat maybe about a month ago. Sorry I don't know how to link the threads.

HH, try "Too Nice for your Own Good," by Duke Robinson. It seems very "inclusive" and got good reviews on Amazon. I got it for my husband--who has niceness issues and he likes it.

Most books on 'Co-dependancy' are written with women in mind. NMMNG is basically the ONLY book, that I have seen, which directly addresses this issue (or most similar to what is termed Nice Guy syndrome) in MEN.

I would encourage you to read about Co-dependancy and see if this rings true with you.

Thanks for the book tip, I needed something like that. Is the X completely out of the picture now?

The last time I spoke with her was the last marriage counseling session we had in March. She told me she wanted a divorce via email.

She is so far gone... I have no idea where to forward her mail. It goes in the trash.